COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT PARKTOWN, JOHANNESBURG 10 1 FEBRUARY 2019 DAY 45 20 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 PROCEEDINGS HELD ON 1 FEBRUARY 2019 CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Mr Pretorius. Good morning everybody. Good morning Mr Bloem. ALL: Morning. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Morning Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Pretorius. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The next witness Chair is Dennis Victor Bloem. May he be sworn? 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja, thank you. REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Dennis Victor Bloem. REGISTRAR: Do you have any objection in taking the prescribed oath? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Not at all. REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath to be binding on your conscience? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. REGISTRAR: Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing and nothing but the truth? If so please raise your right hand and say so help me God. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So help me God. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: (duly sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Bloem before we start I just want to thank you for coming forward to assist the Commission. We really appreciate all people who come and assist us. Thank you very much. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Thank you Chairperson. Page 2 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Chair the Bundle T has now been supplemented and Mr Bloem’s affidavit is in Divider T5 or should I say ought to be in Divider T5. CHAIRPERSON: Well it is T5. Thank you Mr Pretorius. I have got it. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Mr Bloem in paragraph 1 of your affidavit you place before the Chair some of your background. Would you just relate that please to the Chair? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I am an adult male. Since 2009 I am a serving member of the Congress of the People Party. I lived in Pretoria. [Intervenes]. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: If I may interrupt you. In your own words you needed 10 not follow the text of the affidavit. Would you just give a brief resume to the Chair please? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. I, thank you very much Chair. I am, I am married with children. In 1994 I went to Parliament. I was elected and represented the African National Congress as a member. I first served in the senate, the then senate from 1994 to 1996. Then in 1996 when the Constitution was changed it was then called the National Council of Provinces. I was then shifted to the National Assembly and since then up until 200-, 2014 I served in the National Assembly as a member. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you serve Mr Bloem on a Portfolio Committee? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I served in the Portfolio Committee on Correctional 20 Services since 1994. From the senate then I went to the National Assembly. I served in that Committee, but I also served in various other Portfolio Committees. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Yes and were you Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services for a period? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In 2004 I was elected as the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services up to 2009. Page 3 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. You have recently and that is in the past two weeks issued a press statement saying that you were prepared to testify at this Commission in relation to the Bosasa contracts testified to here over the past few weeks? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson when I was following this Commission when Mr Angelo Agrizzi was testifying I said I must come to the Commission, because what Mr Agrizzi was saying I know for a fact that is what has happened in the Correctional Services Committee. I am saying that as far as Correctional Services issues are concerned what Mr Agrizzi has testified that is why I am sitting here today. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Yes. So in essence Mr Bloem you are giving evidence at very short notice and we thank you for assisting the investigators and the Commission, but as I understand your evidence there is a lot more detail you can give, a lot more documentation you can provide and I understand you are happy to cooperate with the Commission in this regard? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I will give my full support to the investigators, to the Committee, to the Commission, because there is a lot that is still outstanding from this affidavit of mine. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Mr Bloem what is instructive about what you are going to tell the Chair is that you give an overview and an insight that this Commission has not 20 really had before and that is the role of Parliament and the role of parliamentary committees. In paragraph 2 of your affidavit then you speak of Portfolio Committees and the role of Portfolio Committees. Please tell the Chair about that. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In each and every term when members are elected and are sworn in, in Parliament Portfolio Committees and standing committees are bein g established there and to, to perform oversight on the work of the different departments. Page 4 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 Each and every department is having its own Portfolio Committee or standing committee to do oversight on that entity or that department. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: So the role of parliamentary committees in their duty of oversight over Government Departments and the work of the various National Government Departments is part of the structure of our constitutional checks and balances as I understand? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. Right, before you then get into the factual part of your statement and the facts to which you testify can I ask you to go to page 12? 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Sorry. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Page 12 of your statement. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Page 12. Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Is that your signature there above your name? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct, yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And on the facts in this statement from pages 1 to 12 to the best of your knowledge true and correct? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is correct, yes Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Are there any correction you wish to make? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. I think it is two, two small corrections. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair on. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Page 6. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: On page 6, 8.3 the last line. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Where it says contract to Operations. Page 5 of 93 It must be 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 Bosasa. CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry what is the paragraph again? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It starts with the DCS, 8.3 Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay and you say the last line? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The last, ja Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Where it says contract to Operations? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, yes. CHAIRPERSON: It should say Bosasa Operations? ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: That is correct Chair. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair then on page 10. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is 15, where it starts with Winnie. Winnie replied, it starts there and then the last line. CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry what is the paragraph on page 10? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is page 10 Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, page 10 what paragraph? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It starts from nine Chair at the bottom. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Winnie, Winnie replied. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ja. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Then the spelling of Nyuku, Nyuku. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. Page 6 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. It must be N-Y-U-K-U. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, okay. Nyuku. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nyuku, Nyuku. CHAIRPERSON: [Laughing]. Okay. I must, I must confess when I read it I did not think that NYOKO was meant to be Nyuku, Nyuku because, but I think when I read this is money I should have thought it is supposed to be Nyuku. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja, kenyuku Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So instead of N-Y-O, it should be N-Y-U? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON: And, and should it not be U after K or is that the Zulu version? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is N-U, N-Y-U-K-U. Nyuku. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nyuku. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay, okay. Thank you. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson that is; that is the only two. CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you very much. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Corrections. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Let us return to your statement then please Mr Bloem 20 and go to paragraph 2.2 where you deal in more detail with the role, the constitutional role of Portfolio Committees within Parliament. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. Chairperson the Portfolio Committees play a, must play a very important role when it comes to oversight. That is the first one. Then the budget of each and every department the oversight and the approval and scrutiny of the Portfolio Committee comes into play. If the Portfolio Committee is not doing that. Then Page 7 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 there is no Portfolio Committee for that department. So the Portfolio Committee plays a very important role oversight the budget, to approve the budget. CHAIRPERSON: And a Portfolio Committee can call upon the Minister of a particular department the Director-General at any time to come and account on, on the work of the department. Is that right? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson the constitution of the country is saying that Parliament is doing oversight. The executive must report to Parliament. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So in other words. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The Portfolio Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Is having power. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: To call the Minister. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: At any time. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja, to come and account. 20 CHAIRPERSON: And officials of a department? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And officials. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Of the department. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: So as I understand what you are telling the Chair in Page 8 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 summary Mr Bloem is that according to our Constitution the executive arm of Government and in particular the various Government Departments are accountable to Parliament and must report to Parliament? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And in this regard Parliament works through its parliamentary committees? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And you are going to talk in your evidence about the functioning or lack of functioning of the standing committee in relation to Correctional 10 Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The Portfolio Committee. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The; sorry not SCOPA? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Not, ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The Portfolio Committee? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The Portfolio. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: SCOPA does come into it, but we will talk about that later. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct, ja. CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed what powers does a Portfolio Committee have in 20 terms of what it can do when it is unhappy with reports or explanations from a Government Department, from a Minister, from a Director-General, from officials of a department if it is unhappy with explanations or if it believes that there is something wrong going on there? What, what are the powers that it has in terms of what it can do? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson the powers of the Portfolio Committee is Page 9 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 to approve budgets. If the Portfolio Committee is not happy about anything the Portfolio Committee can vote against the budget of the department. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And not approve. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That budget. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is the power. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Because the, the, the Portfolio, the department depends on the, the Portfolio Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is a very serious power. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That the Portfolio Committee is having. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but of course I assume that a Portfolio Committee maybe like any individual who has, who, who has knowledge of something wrong going on in any Government department like criminal activities or maladministration, corruption may report that to certain agencies or institutions provided for in our legal system? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: You are, you are 100 percent correct. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The first you, you go to the Minister. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 10 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The, the Minister. You discuss it with the Minister. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And then after that after that you can go to the agencies. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And report. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Criminal activities. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: But you start with the Minister to give him or her the opportunity to take necessary measures. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That that is right. CHAIRPERSON: And then if he or she does not take those or if you are not happy with whatever measures he or she takes then you can report to certain agencies? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And I presume you also report to Parliament of course? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. Each and every report goes to Parliament to the, to the Assembly. Each and every report. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Must go to the Assembly. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: To be approved or be rejected. Page 11 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: And, and I guess that even if you do not vote against the budget of a particular department if you are unhappy about certain things when the budget of that department is being debated in the National Assembly you, you can raise those issues and say we, we, we are not voting against this budget, but we are unhappy because there are the following things that are happening in the department and nothing is being done about them. Something along those lines. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: 100 percent correct Cahir. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We have done it. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Manier times. CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: We were going to deal with the powers in very general terms that the Portfolio Committee has, but perhaps it is as well to complete this line of questioning now Mr Bloem. The powers, the procedural powers of the Portfolio Committee does it have the power to call for reports and documents from the department over which it has oversight? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Can it call for information? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And can it call persons to come and account to it in its meetings? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And during your term of office as Chair of this particular Page 12 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 Portfolio Committee did this occur? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Manier times, all the time. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And we will give some detail in due course? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. Is the work of a Portfolio Committee restricted to departments of Government? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No. Chair we as, as the, as the Portfolio, any Portfolio 10 Committee the scope that we are doing is that we can call any person. For instance Chair when I was still the Chairperson of the Committee I called the Criminal Justice Cluster to, to the Portfolio Committee. We visited different provinces and called this entity. prisons. When we were dealing with the overcrowding problem in South Africa, in So we called the police. We called Magistrates. We called the NPA, everybody that that, that stakeholders we called them. So it is not only the Department of Correctional Services. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In fact I understand that particularly in relation to the SIU investigation into Bosasa officials of the NPA or an official of the NPA actually reported to your Committee? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: 100 percent correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. Let us then go to paragraph 2.3 please. Again by way of introduction there were two entities or departments over which your Committee, the Committee on Correctional Services had jurisdiction. What were those two? You Page 13 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 have told us about the Department of Correctional Services. Was there another entity? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. It was Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons that were doing also oversight. The treatment and, and so on, the care of inmates in prisons. We, they also reported to the Portfolio Committee. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. In paragraph 2.4 you list persons who were members of the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services. I take it that is during the period 2004 to 2009 when you were the Chair of that Committee? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And when you were Chair of that Committee in that 10 period you were a member of the Governing Party? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Tell the Chair please who else was, who else sat on that Committee? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair I must explain this, this when Portfolio Committees are being constituted it is multiparty committees consisting of all, all the parties represented in Parliament. Now on this Committee it was myself as the Chairperson and then Cindy Chikunga who is now a Deputy Minister of Transport, Cindy. Cele, it is not Bheki Cele. This is another Cele. Then it is Sam Mahote. Then Winnie Ngwenya. 20 Then the late Reverend Bishop Tolo. Then Inkosi Xolo. Then Mr James Selfe. He was from the DA. Then Ms Sybil Seaton who was from the IFP. Then Mr Cupido who was from the ACDP and then Ms Rajbally who was from the Minority Front. That was the composition of the Committee. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you. Then the Committee that you have just referred to under your Chairmanship that tenure ended in March 2009? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. Page 14 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: During the period 2004 to 2009, we will refer to it now as the Committee, approximately how many Committee Meetings did it hold in relation to the Department of Correctional Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair we had more than 137 Committee Meetings and that, this 137 Committee Meetings was only there in Parliament, but we also have meetings outside of Parliament. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And did you conduct oversight visits for example in 10 various prisons? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. We had 27 oversight visits in various prisons around the country. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And the purpose of these visits what was that? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The, the purpose was to interact with the officials of the department. I am talking now here about the foot soldiers of the department, the conditions of our prisons, looking at nutrition, looking at treatment of the, the inmates and so on. That is a, there are a lot of other things that we are looking, but oversight that is what, why we are going to, in these prisons. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And you have told the Chair that you interrogated for the 20 purpose of approving or rejecting the budget of the Department of Correctional Services each year? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you also interrogate the budget of the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. Page 15 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What is the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons, because you are going to talk a little about it later? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: This, this body was set up by the President to also, to do oversight in prisons when it comes to treatment of the inmates . Inmates can complain to this body. It is an independent body of, of, of, of the Correctional Services. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And it is headed by a Judge? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is a headed by a Judge. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right and you say it was set up by the President. Which President? 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It first started with, if I am not wrong, President Mandela. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: President Mandela then President Thabo Mbeki. Ja, but it, it went on, ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The minutes of Committee Meetings reports in relation to site visits or oversight visits. Are these, where are all these documents kept? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair in each and every meeting of Parliament there are recordings, electronic recordings. There are also handwritten minutes by our Committee Secretary. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And these no doubt will through the correct procedures Chair be available to the investigators to supplement the statement in due course? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. How did the Committee function? multiparty Committee. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: [Intervenes]. Page 16 of 93 It is a 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The fact that it was a multiparty Committee how did that affect the functioning of the Committee? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I can say with without any doubt this was the best committee in Parliament during that time. We were working in the interest of the country. When it comes to political affiliation it was not in this committee. We were working as a unit there. If people from different parties were having problems or concerns they will come to me and we will solve that problem, but there was Mr Selfe, Ms Seaton, Rajbally, Mr Cupido was from the opposition, but I can tell you up until today I am still having that relationship with them. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: From all, by all the counts the role and functioning of the Portfolio Committee the multiparty Portfolio Committee is a central instrument in our parliamentary democracy? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Correct. Yes, Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did the committee during your period as Chair encounter difficulties in its operation and I am at paragraph 6 of your statement? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson we had serious problems when it comes to the committee, the Department of Correctional Services, the leadership of the Department of Correctional Services the top leadership. Not with the other, the ordinary members of the, of the department. 20 CHAIRPERSON: So the, there you are talking about the leadership at national level? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Let me, let me be specific. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The, the Commissioner. Page 17 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And his, his, his top structure. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: How did these difficulties present themselves in relation to your functioning? What was the problem in fact? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I, let me, let me be very clear. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe before, before this. It might be convenient if you tell us who the National Commissioner was if it was only one during the time that you were. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja, ja. CHAIRPERSON: You were Chairperson of the committee. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Or if there were more then you can just tell us from that year to tha t year it was so and so. From that year to that year it was so and so and then you can tell us about the challenges. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I will not put the years, but I can tell you. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: About the Commissioners. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Linda Mti was the Commissioner at that time. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Then Vernie Petersen. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 18 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The late Vernie Petersen. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Took over. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: From, from him. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And then after that it was Tom Moyane. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Who was the Chair. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay, thank you. Then Mr Pretorius you had asked a question. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And who was the Minister, just to complete that round of questioning? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The Minister was Ngconde Balfour Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right you were going to tell the Chair how the difficulties presented themselves as a matter of fact in relation to information documentation reports requests made to the committee to the department. Tell the Chair about that please. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: [Intervenes]. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We had very serious problems when it comes to accountability from the department. All the time when we come to meetings it is either the, the information will come late or the, the information will not be there at all. So it was very difficult for us to interrogate this and Chair I will make minutes available of our meetings. Page 19 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: What I am saying here. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Did you form any view about whether the delay in giving the committee documents or information or the failure to give information to the committee by the department was a matter of incompetence and inefficiency or did you form a view that it was much more than that or are you not able to tell? When I say much more than that maybe that it was deliberate to sabotage the work of the committee or is it something you are not sure about? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson this was clearly undermining the authority 10 of the committee. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You give an example of the lack of effective communication between the executive authority on the one hand and the committee on the other in paragraph 7.1 and you refer to the example of the redeployment of the Former National Commissioner of Correctional Services in November 2008 Mr Vernie Petersen. Please tell the Chair of those circumstances. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson there was a, a breakdown of the relationship between the committee and when I am saying here DCS Executive Authority I am, I am referring to the Minister of Correctional Services. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ngconde Balfour. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: There was a breakdown in the relationship between the committee and him. When Mr Vernie Petersen the Commissioner then the late Mr Petersen was redeployed to Sports and Recreational we were not informed. We Page 20 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 also learnt this redeployment from the media. We were not taken into consider ation about his re and the reasons why he was redeployed to another department. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Let us place that into context Mr Bloem. What period, for what period did Mr Petersen serve as National Commissioner of Correctional Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Mr Petersen came into the department in 2007 and 2008 he was gone. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. So he was there for approximately one year? 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And during that year how did he conduct himself? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson anyone in this country can attest what I am saying. It was the best National Commissioner in the department. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm, hm. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What did he do to allow you to make that judgment? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Mr Petersen was a corruption buster. Mr Petersen hated corruption with all his heart. He was a straightforward person. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Was he experienced and knowledgeable in matters related to Correctional Services? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: And I take it that during his time the committee did not have the problems that you have told us about, about information not being given to it on time or not being given at all. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Not at all Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 21 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was all the time there. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In, in that year when Mr Petersen was there. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: How did you and other members of the committee react to the fact of Mr Petersen’s redeployment? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We, we, in the first place we were very surprised. The second it was a blow to the Department of Correctional Services and the committee. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You say that Mr Petersen took over the functions and the 10 office of National Commissioner Correctional Services in 2007? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Who was the person he succeeded? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Linda Mti. He, he came after Linda Mti Chairperson. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What was the state generally speaking of the department of Correctional Services when Mr Petersen took over? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson there was only havoc in the Department of Correctional Services. Nothing else. I cannot describe it any better, because I was doing the oversight work on the department. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Anyway it seems that Mr Petersen lasted a year. Who succeeded him? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was Mr Tom Monyane. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Okay. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you could elaborate just a little bit on the havoc. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson in the first place this thing of Bosasa was Page 22 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 hampering the functioning of the Department of Correctional Services. There was no control. There was no discipline in the Department of Correctional Services. To mention Chair I had a very good working relationship with POPCRU. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And they themselves were unhappy with what had happened. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The staff Chair there was all the time protest marches. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: People were unhappy in the Department of Correctional Services. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Let us deal briefly with the facts Mr Bloem that you testified to in paragraph 7.3. Since 2004 what was the quality of the audit reports received by the Department of Correctional Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson it was only qualified audit reports and. CHAIRPERSON: Year in year out? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Year in year out. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was; that is why I described it as havoc. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Year in year out. There was no control at all. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The existence or otherwise of internal financial controls within the department, you make a comment in that regard in paragraph 7.3. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was very weak. There was, there was no control at Page 23 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 all Chairperson. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right and in what respect did these internal controls or lack of internal controls in particular reflect in relation to supply chain manageme nt processes? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair it was flooded. There was nothing that was, they had not done anything according to the book. It was a free for all that was happening in the department. CHAIRPERSON: Was that the state of the affairs from 2004 up to 2009 when you left the committee throughout or was it the position only for some of the years and not all? 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson this thing did not only start in 2004. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: As I have said I started in this committee in 1994 already. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. Oh, you are only became Chairperson of the committee in 2004? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON: But a member, a member of the committee you started in 1994? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is right Chair. CHAIRPERSON: 20 So you had very good knowledge of what was going on in Correctional Services during those years? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is right Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. So, so, just so that we, we, we know. So this situation of qualified audits had been the position for all the years or only some of the years from 1994? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson there was, before Linda Mti there was a Page 24 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 Commissioner Khulekani Sithole. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Havoc. There was, this thing Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: If the investigators can go back. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And check. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: What has happened. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: They will find more damning things. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Than this Bosasa. CHAIRPERSON: In relation to corruption? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In relation to corruption Chair. They will find more damning. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Things than this Bosasa issue. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Under the leadership of Khulekani Sithole. CHAIRPERSON: Okay, okay thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In paragraph 7.3, I am sorry Chair did you want to? CHAIRPERSON: Ja, just, just something. I assume that the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services must have been very unhappy about this situation in Correctional Services where there were qualified audits and there was havoc for so many years and Page 25 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 that they were doing something to try and put a stop to this havoc. Were they and if so what, why were they not succeeding? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson the only person who had tried to bring Correctional Services back in line was the late Vernie Petersen. All these others no, Chairperson. They have not. It is only Vernie Peterson. CHAIRPERSON: But the Portfolio Committee itself it has oversight responsibility. It had oversight responsibility. It was aware I assume at the time that as you were aware that there was only havoc as you put it at Correctional Services and it must have been their responsibility to do whatever they could to put an end to this havoc. So were they 10 doing anything and if they were obviously they were not succeeding. Why were they not succeeding? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I am addressing it in my affidavit that, but let me answer it. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I am happy if you want to deal with it later as long as you deal with it. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja, I, I. CHAIRPERSON: But if you want to say something now you can. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson we as a committee raised many objections and many concerns to then Minister. When I, I am talking about when I was the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The Chair, the Minister was Ngconde Balfour. I raised many things in meetings. Only me. Page 26 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And him. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Talking about these problems. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And it was never addressed. CHAIRPERSON: When you, when you used to have discussions with, with him did he also acknowledge that there were serious problems, but did not want to do anything about them or did he deny that there were problems? 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson his attitude was no, let us leave the department to sort out those problems. Let us not interfere in the opera tions of the Department of Correctional Services. That was his attitude. CHAIRPERSON: Even when the [indistinct] include corruption? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson even that. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: He, he, he will come to the committee with Linda Mti. We will raise it. I am saying Chair we are having minutes. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Recordings. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Of our, of our meetings. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is not a thing that I am just raising it. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is there. Page 27 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We have raised it many a times. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nothing Chair, nothing. CHAIRPERSON: Now obviously we have seen from the membership of the committee during the time when you were chairperson that the majority of the members were ANC people? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Members of Parliament. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: This may or may not be a difficult question in terms of the Constitution and so on, but let me ask this question. As a member of the ruling party. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: If you are a member of a Portfolio Committee and you have serious problems about how a certain department is being run in terms of corruption and things like that and you are not finding joy with the relevant Minister. Would members of the ruling party also report to the ruling party to say we have a problem here you know? This will give a bad name to our party, because it is going to be like you know the party is failing to make sure that its deployees, a Minister makes sure that a department is 20 being run properly. Would such reports be made to the ruling party and would it do anything about such things? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson there in Parliament there is structures called study groups. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Study groups consists of members of the different Page 28 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 parties. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The ANC. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Was having its own study group. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And the Minister is supposed to be part of the study group. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In that, those study groups we raised these things. We even invited the Chief Whip of the, the majority party. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Our Chief Whip. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: To such meetings study group meetings. Not Portfolio Committee meetings. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Where ANC members are alone. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And private. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We raised these issues Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In, in; so people were aware. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. Page 29 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Of what is going on. CHAIRPERSON: Yes and what came out of those discussions where it was an ANC study group where these issues were raised? Did anything come, come out in terms of addressing the corruption at Correctional Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson the only thing that was said in such meetings, comrades you must work together. Do not fight, because this is an ANC Government. Do not fight comrades. That is all and then it will, the Chief Whip will say I will look into this matter. That is all Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: I am told that at one stage or I am instructed that at one stage the committee, the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services actually rejected a budget presented by the Department of Correctional Services. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson when we were now aware that our authority is being undermined. Twice we, we, we decided as a committee to reject and not to approve the budget of the Portfolio Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Budget for Correctional Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The budget for Correctional Services. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I was called Chairperson to the Chief Whip’s office. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And in that there I was, I was reprimanded and said that this what you are doing this is an ANC Government. You cannot do this, beca use you are putting the ANC in a bad light outside. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Twice Chair, I was called. Page 30 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Chief Whip of the ANC at the time? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Who called you and reprimanded you? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Mbulelo Goniwe, Mbulelo Goniwe. CHAIRPERSON: Mbulelo Goniwe? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Did you find that as a member of the ruling party serving in the 10 Correctional Services Committee, Portfolio Committee did you find that you were in a conflict situation, maybe a conflict of interest situation in the sense that in your own mind you knew what you thought should be done to stop the havoc, to s top the correctional, but at the same time you were being told not to follow certain steps, not to follow a certain line, because it was said it would put the ANC Government in a bad light? Did you find yourself in that situation or not really? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Exactly Chairperson, correct. Chairperson let me, let me say this to the, deputy, the, the now from Former President Kgalema Motlanthe was the Secretary General of the ANC. Now deployment in the ANC is being made from Luthuli House to say this one will be Chairperson and what and what, what. Many 20 times people were going to complain to Kgalema Motlanthe. I am having respect for that man up until today. Kgalema Motlanthe was asking them, they wanted to remove me as the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Kgalema Motlanthe was asking them but are you saying that the opposition must ask these tough questions that Dennis Bloem is asking Page 31 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 our member. Must we, must we now defend these things. He was, he was saying that I am not going to agree with you because this is exactly the work of the Oversight Committee, the Portfolio Committee to keep the Minister and the department to account. He rejected it. Not once, not once he rejected it to say no. This man is doing his work. He is representing the ANC very good. CHAIRPERSON: So were, were those who were approaching him and wanting you to be removed what was their basis for complaining about you? What did they find wrong with what you were doing? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I was being labelled as an opposition in 10 the ANC, because I was asking these questions and doing my work. Up until today Chair I am doing my work. When, when I am given, being given a task I will do exactly you or anybody is, is giving me to do. I will do it. CHAIRPERSON: Well part of what you have said is very important and, and hopefully the Commission will hear from more people from Parliament on various issues because one of the questions that arises is whether two the extent that there w as, there is state capture and as I always say I will only decide at the end of the Commission whether there was. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: My terms of reference say I must investigate the allegations. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: That there was state capture to the extent that there was the question arises whether Parliament was immune from it or whether it was also affected in its functions by issues of state capture will end corruption. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: And, and it - well be also that with or without state capture or Page 32 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 corruption it may well be that there are certain understandings, different understandings from different quarters as to how members of Parliament who happen to be membe rs of political parties how they are supposed to do their work when it may appear that their party wants something else and they think the right thing is something else. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: So it may well be that as the commission goes on with its work it should keep an eye. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Or to what extent our parliament may also have been affected. 10 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Because since it plays oversight – an oversight role it may well be that parliament may also have been able to stop certain things. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: From happening. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Or from continuing. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: It may be that it may have been able to strop certain people. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON: From doing certain things. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: But it did not do so. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: And the question may be in not doing so… DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. Page 33 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Was it influenced by issues of state capture and corruption or not? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: So I just wanted to say from your evidence those are some of the things that come to my mind. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: But thank you. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Because – if I can add because as I said quite early after my appointment as Chairperson of this commission I see the task of this commissi on as 10 including that if we find – if I find that indeed there was state capture and all the things that are happening that happened under state capture one of the things that the commission has got to look at is what enabled state capture to happen? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: What are the things that facilitated state capture to happen the way it did? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: What is it in our environment legal and maybe even constitutional that may have and political that may have provided fertile ground for state capture to happen. 20 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: What therefore are the things that we should put in place if we want to make sure that state capture does not happen again? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Do you have any comment or shall we move on? Page 34 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair just to comment. I can say to the commission and to the Chair a former secretary to parliament will approach the commission to come and testify in that regard. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you Chair. In paragraph 7.3 you deal Mr Bloem with at least two other instances of failures relating to the Department of Correctional Services. What role did the standing committee on public accounts pay –play and 10 perhaps you should tell the Chair and the public at large what functions SCOPA performs? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson this standing committee on public accounts are scrutinising all the departments. The budgets, the records of each and every department. Now SCOPA also raised questions and concerns about Department of Correctional Services. They called the Department of Correctional Services to come and account. They went to the head office of – in Pretoria of Correctional Services. Nothing, nothing has happened Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Were resolutions taken by SCOPA in relation to the Department of Correctional Services? 20 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair there was many resolutions. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Were these implemented? Just in general terms now we can deal with the detail in due course? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was never implemented. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. And the Auditor General what function did the Auditor General perform in relation to departmental accounts? Page 35 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The Auditor General also scrutinised the books and raised many things. Those reports the Auditor General will come to th e Portfolio Committee as well and raise this issues and make recommendations nothing, nothing has happened. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did the Auditor General from time to time identify weaknesses within the Department of Correctional Services from an accounting point of view? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did it make recommendations? 10 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes the.. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Were these – again generally and we can provide the detail later implemented? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: There was no implementation. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right and then the Department of Correctional Services certainly in its procurement function is governed by legislation such as the Public Finance Management Act? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: From time to time where breeches of the legislation identified by your committee? 20 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right let us move on then to paragraph 8 but by way of introduction there are two processes involved in procurement by a government department. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The first is the decision to outsource functions to the Page 36 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 private sector? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The second is the procurement of service providers, the issuing of tenders and the allocation of contracts. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: To bidders who participate in the procurement process. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Let us deal first then with the prior decision to outsource. One would as a general principle expect that to the extent possible a department would 10 perform its own functions internally? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. Yes Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: But we know of course that is not always possible and a decision will be made to outsource? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Please tell the Chair about the decision to outsource in relation to services provided by Department of Correctional Services and you deal with that in paragraph 8.1? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson we ask questions. The first was, was there any feasibility study done to come to this conclusion? There was not. The department 20 was telling us and promising us ja no we will come with the documents. Up until today there was not. All the PFMA and everything was floundered nothing – they have never ever advertised or put the tender out so that everybody must have a fair chance, no. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Alright you deal in that answer with two processes. Please tell the Chair what is the function of a feasibility study? Why have a feasibility study in relation to whether or not to outsource a particular duty or function? Page 37 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair if we – you are doing a feasibility study you are check – you are looking at your budget. Will the budget – will it be in line with the budget? Why is it necessary to have this outsourcing? Is it necessary? That is the crux. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right we have heard evidence about feasibility studies and the lack thereof but are you saying generally you noted in your committee that there was a failure or a lack of undertaking feasibility studies or to take feasibility studies? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That feasibility study never – the document never came to 10 us Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. In relation to the committee’s oversight over the first issue whether a particular service such as catering, security should be outsourced at a particular cost level what was the view of the committee? You talk in paragraph 8.1 for example of priorities. 8.1 is along paragraph so perhaps you can just read through it quickly and tell the Chair in your own words of what you are saying in this paragrap h? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson we as the committee have said there are other urgent priorities in the department. For instances the poor salaries of the staff because we have said pay these people better. The other one was dedicated juvenile facili ties. Overcrowding was a serious problem. I think up until today overcrowding is still a 20 problem. This thing of outsourcing was not a priority. It was just manufactured by the department. But this a problem of salaries for the low salaries of the staff – Correctional Service Officials. The overcrowding. The dedicated juvenile centres was priorities because we had that problem Chair of juveniles were sitting with adults. They were mixed in prisons. That is why there was sodomy, there was all these b ad things in prisons. That is why we have said use the money to create more juvenile centres. Page 38 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: As a general observation we have heard of hundreds of millions of rand being spent on TV systems, high security fencing, catering service s. In your view generally was this money well spent within the priorities of Correctional Services? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair in the first place we were opposed to the outsourcing of any service to – of the Department. It was a waste of tax payers money, this outsourcing and I will come to the catering issue step by step Chair on the outsourcing. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you. Chair is this an appropriate time before we move onto the detail? 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes we will take the tea adjournment and we will resume at half past eleven. We adjourn. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Pretorius. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you Chair. Mr Bloem we were at paragraph 8 of your statement. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And you had told the Chair firstly about the prior decisions to outsource and then the later procurement contracts that were awarded 20 pursuant to the decision to outsource. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did the Committee which you chaired ever question the decisions to outsource serves? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair we have. We have opposed it. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Once more than once? Page 39 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: More than once up until 2009 when I went out of the Committee. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Alright. Did you oppose or did your Committee oppose outsourcing on the basis of whether it was necessary to outsource or whether it was being outsourced at excessive costs or both? What was the position? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson in the first place as I have said before we, we, we have not seen why it is necessary to outsource these functions of Correctional Services. That is why we have opposed it and the procedures that were followed also contributed to our opposition. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. In relation to priorities you have told the Chair that in your view or in the view of your Committee there was not an appropriate or proper ranking of priorities as I understand your evidence. Do you have any thing to add what you said? You have spoken about salaries, juvenile facilities and other matters. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is; that is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You do not have anything to add there? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No, Chair. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Alright. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair maybe, maybe on the nutrition one I can add. The Correctional Services are having its own farms where they are planting and producing their own food. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Why, why; we have, we have asked these type of Page 40 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 questions. Why is it necessary to outsource but I will, I will go into detail when it comes to the, the, the nutrition issue Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja, Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You have raised issued before the Chair Mr Bloem in relation to the need to outsource the ranking of priorities and the procedures followed pursuant to outsourcing in procurement. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Were these questions raised with the Department of 10 Correctional Services at Committee Meetings? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Not only with the department in meetings, but also with the Minister, the executive authority. We have raised it with him as well. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you ask for information, documentation, reports in this regard? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We have asked for documentation and reports on that. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you receive full cooperation from the department? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Not at all Chair, nothing. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In paragraph 8.2 you identify four contracts which were subject to your investigations presumably amongst others. Tell the Chair what t hose 20 contracts were please. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson it was the catering contract, catering and trading contract that was in 20-, 2004. It was called nutrition. Then in 2005 it was Sondolo IT contract. Then in March 2006 it was a television distribution contract. Then in 2005 it was the fencing contract for 47 prisons. We call it DCS sites but that is that that was the outsourcing. Page 41 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Just by way of example we have heard evidence about an extensive expensive contract awarded to Bosasa or entered into with Bosasa for the provision of television screens in cells. Did your Committee have any views in relation to priorities as to whether this was necessary or not in relation to priorities? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson we have asked this question why is it necessary to put television sets in prisons. Even when we were doing oversight even in single cells there were television sets in, in, in single cells, in single cells. We have asked and we have objected to this thing to say no, this is not a priority. Please do not do it, but they, they just ignored us and they went us. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Alright. Right and we will come to the catering services contract and your observations a little later on in your statement. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Your observations concerning the prioritisation of those services. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Alright, alright Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: And, and going back to the installation of TV sets in prisons and as you say even in single cells that issue was also raised by the Committee with the Minister of Correctional Services at the time. Was it raised as well? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Correct Chairperson it was raised. 20 CHAIRPERSON: And did he, was he able to articulate to the Committee what need he thought existed for the installation of TV sets even in single cells or just the installation of TV sets in prisons at all? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson the, the, the explanation and the briefing that they gave to us including the Minister was for development and training of inmates. They were saying to us that they going to roll out educational programs for the inmates Page 42 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 on these television sets. Up until today there is no such thing Chairperson, up unt il today there is no such thing. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And we know from evidence to date and perhaps you can confirm this that 100 of millions of Rand were spent on this project? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson on, on, on which one? ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: On the television distribution contract. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes on [intervenes]. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And the others, but this one in particular. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. It was 237 million. No, the, the, the television installation was R224 million that was spent on the television sets. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In paragraph 8.3 you refer to a response or justification given to your Committee by the Department of Correctional Services and you refer to an intervention by the National Commissioner Mr Petersen, the National Commissioner at the time in relation to a problem or problems related to outsourcing. Tell the Chair about that please. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson Mr Vernie Petersen in the Committee said to us that he raised concerns in the Committee to say that this thing is not cost effective. He, he was saying that he will never agree with the outsourcing of anything in 20 Correctional Services. That was Mr Vernie Petersen in the Committee. I am saying Chairperson there are minutes of, of those meetings where Mr Petersen has raised objections. CHAIRPERSON: Well if that was his attitude and he came at a time when some functions had already been outsourced I would imagine that his attitude then was t o look at ways of stopping that outsourcing. Is that correct? Page 43 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Yes and now in terms of functions that had previously been performed by Correctional Services staff officials, workers which then became outsourced. What happened to the staff who had been performing those functions? Were they taken over by the entity that, to which the function was outsourced? Do you know? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson let me come to the catering one. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Because [intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: [Intervenes] I am happy, I am happy for you to deal with it later if. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Oh, okay. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: No, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: I have gone ahead of Mr Pretorius. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In fact it is a pertinent question. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And this is the issue to which. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Mr Bloem has been referring and. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And he will illustrate precisely. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 44 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Matters in answer to your question. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Do you want him to do [intervenes]? ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: So deal with. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What you actually saw. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In Correctional Services. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, you can deal with it, ja. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson this catering tender was just money laundering, a money laundering scheme. The, Bosasa have said they are going to take over the kitchens and do the cooking and prepare food. It was a blue lie. The inmates were still doing the cooking and it was business as usual. Chairperson I am talking out of experience. I visited these prisons. The inmates were still cooking. Sondolo had one office in the middle of the kitchen. One official, one, one of their people we re sitting there in that office and they were just taking the money, Sondolo. They were not actually doing the job. Chairperson there was no labour. There was no labour from Bosasa. It was the inmates that have cooked that have prepared food that have dished out for the inmates. I am saying Chairperson I am speaking out of experience. I visited 20 physically the prisons in the country. CHAIRPERSON: Shoo. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is so. CHAIRPERSON: You are telling me that effectively what would have happened is that if Bosasa/Sondolo took over in terms of the contract that they were given took over today there was in practical terms no difference between how the food for the prisoners, Page 45 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 how the catering had happened yesterday and how it was happening today and how it would happen the following day other than that there was some Bosasa official in the kitchen and maybe other people, but the actual cooking was not done by Bosasa staff. It was done by the inmates themselves and the dishing out and ever ything happened the way it had been happening before Bosasa got the contract. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: That is what you are saying? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: And the, who, who, who bought the food that would have to be cooked. Before I assume it was Correctional Services before Bosasa got the contract and after Bosasa had gone, got the contract who, do you know who, who bought the food that was to be cooked? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson we asked that very same question in the Committee. Up until today we never got an, an answer. Who was supplying the food in the kitchens, but we know Chairperson that Correctional Services is, was h aving and is still having farms. There are farms for meat. There are farms for vegetables. There are farms for chickens all over the country Chairperson. They are having farms to grow 20 these, this food. So I, we have asked this question. Vernie Petersen has asked this question. He has raised it to say, but we are having our own farms. Why is it that you are outsourcing now these things? CHAIRPERSON: So on the face of, in the light of the fact that Correctional Services has got farms as you say where it grows vegetables I assume and a lot of things for the food of inmates. Page 46 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: In the light of that if Bosasa was supplying any food it may have been to supplement, but otherwise one expects that the food that was grown in, on the farms of Correctional Services is the food that was supplied to the kitchens all over the country? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Correct Chairperson. It was the food from Correctional Services. CHAIRPERSON: Is, is; you were a member of the Correctional Services Portfolio Committee for over 10 years, from 1994 to 2009. Is that right. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: For 20 years Chair. CHAIRPERSON: For 20 years, yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: 20 years. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So it is a long time? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Is there any chance that a person who was Minister of Correctional Services during that time would not have been aware of what was happening and would not have been aware of, would not have asked the question what are we paying Bosasa for? What do they actually do? Is that something you are able to, to answer? Is there something that you might not be able to answer? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I can answer it. We as the Portfolio Committee, I myself as the Chairperson 2004 to 2009, I raised it personally with Minister Balfour one, one on one. It is not a thing that even in the Committee even in study groups we raised it. So it is not a question that people were not aware of this thing. CHAIRPERSON: And you are saying, well you left the Portfolio Committee of Page 47 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 Correctional Services at that, in 2009? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Since then your knowledge of what is happening at, at Correctional Services would it be based on, simply on what you read in the media or do you have anymore, better information in terms of what is happening there? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No, Chairperson. After 2009. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Then I resigned from the ANC. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And joined the Congress of the People. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Then I went back to Parliament. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I, I then served again on the Portfolio Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is why I am saying it 20 years. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: From 1994? 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Up until 2009. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: 2009 I shifted. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: To Cope. Page 48 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And I continued. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: To serve on the Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So I know. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Very well. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: What is going on. CHAIRPERSON: Even now you say the position is what you are telling us? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I cannot say now. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I cannot say it now. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, but I am saying. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Up until 2014. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was the position. CHAIRPERSON: It was the position, yes. So if that is true then the Department of Correctional Services may have been paying Bosasa millions of Rands for absolutely nothing or something very little that they were doing in regard to catering. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson the only thing that they Bosasa were doing is to give these inmates a certificate at the end of the year saying that he is Page 49 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 trained, but the inmates were doing the work. I do not have any doubt, I do not, I do not take chances Chair. I am saying. CHAIRPERSON: You know what you are talking about? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I know what I am talking about. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I was there Chair. CHAIRPERSON: So which would mean actually if Bosasa’s contract was to, were to be terminated now, if what you say was happening up to 2014 if it is still happening if it is still the same realty the only difference in practical terms in prisons and Correctional 10 Services would be, there would be no difference really in terms of practically terms because the inmates would continue to, to cook and so on and the only difference really would be that Bosasa would stop receiving millions from Correctional Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Correct Chair. There will not be any disruption. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In, in, in prison. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nothing. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Yes, Chair one observation hundreds of millions, Chair. 20 CHAIRPERSON: What did I say? ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Millions. CHAIRPERSON: [Laughing]. Ja. No, it is hundreds of millions, thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In fact you deal with that in paragraph 8.4 Mr Bloem and you say that on your estimate the Department of Correctional Serv ices has awarded tenders to Bosasa Operations and its subsidiaries in a particular amount. What is your Page 50 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 estimate? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson it was close to a billion or maybe more than a billion rand, these tenders that the department gave to Bosasa, one billion at that time and can I add something Chair? CHAIRPERSON: [No audible reply]. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: You see it is only seven, seven, seven prison, prisons that was identified, those big prisons for this catering business. Not all the , the prisons the 241 prisons. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We have 241 prisons. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Not, it is only seven and I have listed it here Chair. CHAIRPERSON: So it is only seven? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair it was only seven and then later on they rolled it out to other prisons, but not all the prisons in the country. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, but that rollout was also a question of now this, this amount that they have went up. It, it, it went up with R89 million, 89. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Plus this amount. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja, but not all the prisons. They targeted only the big prisons. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: For this project. Page 51 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You mentioned in paragraph 8.4 in fact seven prisons involved in the catering tender originally awarded. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Is that the catering tender that was awarded in July 2004? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct, ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And when the catering contract was entered into between Bosasa and the, the Bosasa Group. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And Department of Correctional Services what was the value of the contract per year for those seven prisons? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was R240 million per, per year. Chair it was a, a three year cycle. Each and every year this amount will be paid, 240 this year, 240 and 240. CHAIRPERSON: What we have just heard is very concerning in terms of tax payers’ money. If the evidence we have heard is true it will be very concerning. I hope that the investigators can urgently establish whether even as we speak that is still the position with regard to the catering contract, because if it, if Mr Bloem’s evidence is true and is 20 corroborated it maybe that some urgent steps need to be taken by the relevant authority and it may or may not be that the Commission might have to consider whether it has any role to have the issue dealt with urgently. Whether it has got any powers and any role, but I hope that the relevant authorities might not wait if they hear this evidence and they verify and it appears to be true that urgent steps can be taken to deal with this situation. Thank you. Page 52 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you Chair. There are indeed a number of steps that require to be taken and will be taken including those which you have just highlighted Chair. The one is to look in detail at the various oversight authorities, the SCOPA, Auditor-General, the Department of Correctional Services accounts, the records to which Mr Bloem is referring in, within the Portfolio Committee and that work then needs to be analysed and that is a significant task. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: By experts and placed. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Before you Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. No, no that that, that that, that that is that is an order. It just is also concerning that if such matters were raised in Parliament that such things appear to have continued for a long time. That is assuming again that this evidence is, is, is true and maybe we will hear, maybe there will be people who will come and say i t is not true, but we will hear. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Mr Bloem perhaps a brief summary is acquisit here. You 20 have spoken about the need for outsourcing in the first instance. You have spoken about the award of contracts in the second instance and you have spoken about value for money in relation to outsourced contacts. Those three issues were they raised with Parliament once, more than once? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was raised not, not once. Many a times Chairperson. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Do you feel satisfied that your concerns were Page 53 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 appropriately addressed? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No, it was never addressed Chairperson. It was never addressed. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You speak in paragraph 8.5 further of the catering tender where you say: “It expired in July 2007, but was extended for a further 12 months.” Do you see that? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, yes. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And on 26 February 2008 did your committee meet? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: When was that? ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: I am at paragraph 8.5. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You refer to a meeting. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Having taken place on 26 February 2008. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct, yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What happened at meeting in relation to the extension of the contract and perhaps I should just ask you a prior question. Was the committee 20 satisfied with the fact that this contract was to be extended or was extended by a further 12 months? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We were not satisfied Chair with the extension of this thing. If the Chairperson will allow me to say what the Commissioner then Vernie Petersen had said in that meeting. 21 October 2008. Page 54 of 93 That that was a meeting on 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Please go ahead. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: We will come back to the meeting of 26 February 2008. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Sorry, sorry Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: No. CHAIRPERSON: You said that the meeting that you want to tell us about where Mr Petersen said something. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Was in October. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Pretorius is saying he was still dealing with the meeting of 26 February. Do you want to come back to that one later after talking about the October one? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No, we can; Chair, we can deal with this one. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: As well, ja. CHAIRPERSON: Right. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You tell the Chair please of what you know in your own 20 chosen sequence. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. Chair in this meeting the National Commissioner assured that the, the, this tender, this new the extension of this tender will be advertised and each and every person, company will get the opportunity to, to tender. It was never done. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And then you were to refer to a meeting of 21 October Page 55 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 and the intervention of Mr Petersen. Would you tell the Chair about that please? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair in a Portfolio Committee meeting Mr Petersen raised concerns. He was saying poor planning and budgeting in the Department of [indistinct] millions of Rands has been wasted on a catering contract and buying of TV sets. He then accused the department the officials some officials in the department to say these officials of re he accused some of the, the, his officials of redire cting money intending for certain projects to secure lucrative food contracts and TVs at the huge cost of the department. That is what Mr Petersen had said. It is in the minutes Chair. It is there. Mr Petersen was totally against this outsourcing. 10 CHAIRPERSON: As far as you can remember I know that you said that the Portfolio Committee was not informed in advance that Mr Petersen was to be redeployed and moved to I think you said Sports and Recreation, but after he had been redeployed were you, were you ever or did you as a committee ever ask what the reasons were and were you ever given what the reasons were by the then Minister of Correctional Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair we asked the Minister what is the reason. He said no, it is Mr Petersen’s skills is being needed in another department full stop. That was his, his, his, his, his answer to us. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. The contract and I am referring now to the catering contract Mr Bloem that you speak of in paragraph 8.5 was first extended for 12 months without any tender process. We have heard that evidence already and you seem to confirm it. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Was there a further extension? Page 56 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: There was a further extension of six months. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Was that preceded, preceded by a tender process? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No not, no, no tender process. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right and you mention a name on page 7 paragraph 8.5. You mention two names an Ms Moodley and a Mr Gillingham. How were they involved or not involved? What are you telling the Chair there? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. Ms Moodley was part of the executive in the Head Office in Correctional Services, but Ms Moodley was not that senior person, but then when they came to the Portfolio Committee to answer now these extensions they used 10 Ms Moodley to answer this question and not Mr Gillingham, but Mr Gillingham was the CFO. So they have just used Ms Moodley to cover up for that thing. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Is that when you called upon the Department of Correctional Services to account for these extensions? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Before the Committee. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You refer in paragraph 8.6 to a Committee meeting held on 19 August 2008. What was the purpose of this meeting in relation to the catering contract? Is that the nutritional contract you referred to? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. In, in this meeting Chair we asked whether a feasibility study had been done to establish if outsourcing; that is the point that I have made before. Where in this meeting we have asked and the period was the, the Public Finance Management Act followed. It was not. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Before you go on. If a feasibility is not, feasibility study rather is not done what is the duty on the department? Page 57 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: They cannot proceed with that tender or, or anything that they want because it is, it is very important. You must know your budget. Will the budget be enough? Will it cater for this thing? So a feasibility study is very important. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Does feasibility also invest or does a feasibility study also investigate value for money [intervenes]. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And did the Committee ask firstly whether a feasibility study had in fact being done in relation to the need to outsource as well as why if it had not been done it had not been done? 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair we asked these questions. We never, we never got any answer. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you also ask why seven correctional centres were selected? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. We asked. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you receive an answer? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: They were telling us that this seven big prisons in the country they, they are having a problem when it comes to dishing out food and preparing food. That is why they must outsource it to a private company. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And did you ask any other questions for the purposes of 20 this meeting? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We have asked what role Patrick Gillingham had played in this whole process of this tender. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. Did you ask for this information at this particular meeting on 19 August 2008? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. Page 58 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Was there any undertaking at the meeting to provide the information? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. There was an undertaking. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Was the information provided? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Up until today no, Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And the tender was at a stage awarded again? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Despite the concerns raised and the information requested by the Committee? 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON: So the concerns and issues raised by the Portfolio Committee were simply ignored? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was simply ignored Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: With no consequences to anybody? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nothing Chair, nothing. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: So who, to whom was the tender awarded? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was awarded to Bosasa. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Again? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Again. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did the department account to the Committee in this regard? You had raised concerns in a meeting. You were given certain undertakings by the department. You had requested certain information which you say you never received. Did they come to you and say look we are going to award this contract again to Bosasa? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson they never, never ever came back to give Page 59 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 us any, any explanation. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: How did you learn then of the re-award of the contract to Bosasa Operations? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We only saw it in the media that the contract was again extended. CHAIRPERSON: So your oversight was being rendered in effective as a committee? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: 100 percent correct Chairperson. 100 percent correct. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, must have been quite frustrating. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson you see my hair is grey now. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is because of those, those things. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Well I, I am just concerned if a situation where a structure of Parliament a very important body in our country a structure of Parliament which has very important constitutional responsibilities of oversight over the executive raises issues and they are just ignored and nothing happens to anybody. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Because that is what your evidence says. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, thank you. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You have given the example Mr Bloem of the catering contract what you described as the nutritional contract. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You have used that to illustrate the relationship between the department officials on the one hand and the Portfolio Committee on the other. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. Page 60 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Was this relationship or this type of relationship or lack of an appropriate relationship evident only in relation to the catering contract or did it exhibit itself in relation to other contracts as well? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Other contracts as well Chairperson. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you call Messieurs Mti and Gillingham to account before your Committee? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you ask them to make presentations? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: After the presentations had been made and after you had an opportunity, had had an opportunity to consider the representations did the Committee raise objections? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair. We raised concerns and objections to these contracts. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you receive a satisfactory response? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Not at all Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did your intervention or attempt to intervene have successful results in relation to the award and further contract of further contracts and further contract extensions to Bosasa or were they ignored? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: They were ignored, completely ignored Chairperson. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. CHAIRPERSON: As Portfolio Committee or would a Portfolio Committee or its Chairperson at some stage be expected to maybe report to the Speaker of Parliament if a Government Department or the executive authority in regard to a certain department, a Minister is not able to assist them with issues that they have raised with his Page 61 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 department and if that is part of what a Portfolio Committee does did yo ur Committee raise with whomever the speaker was at the time and if so what happened? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson the Speaker, it was, no it was Max Sisulu. It was Mr Max Sisulu. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: He was well aware of this, because Chair the Chairperson of the ANC caucus. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is where all the member of the ANC every Thursday. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We are meeting. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We even raised these problems to the Chairperson of the caucus. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was Ms Vytjie Mentor. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: At that time. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We raised it with her. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: to say this is and we raised it in the, it was on the agenda. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 62 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Once. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: To say here is this problem. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So all the members of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In Parliament. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Was aware of this problem. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but nothing came out of it? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nothing has happened Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Nobody did anything about it? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No, no Chair, nobody. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nobody. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You have told the Chair in General terms for the moment of your frustrations in relation to the conduct of the Department of Correctional Services and the inability of the Committee to really do anything it. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you escalate the issues to other committees within Parliament or another committee within Parliament? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. Before I, I respond I just want to make one correction. Ms Vytjie Mentor. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 63 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: When she was the Chairperson she called in the Minister. She had discussions with Minister Balfour. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: On this issue. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So in other words. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: She had also attempted. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: To address this. I just want to put that. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is not that everybody was not. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Doing anything. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: At least she. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Was doing on that. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ms Mentor. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: But you do not know, you do not know, you were not privy to the discussions? What you do know is that nothing changed afterwards? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nothing changed. Page 64 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nothing has changed Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You were going to tell the Chair of your attempt to escalate your concerns on the Committee to another Committee within the parliamentary structure. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And we deal with in paragraph 9. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. Chairperson, SCOPA also raised concerns about 10 this outsourcing of Correctional Services. They called us in a meeting, but before that myself personally I was, I was with the Chairperson of the Committee and the study group of SCOPA. First with the Chairperson of SCOPA. I think at that time it was either Vincent Smith or it was Gavin Woods the Chairperson. It was not Godi. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. It was. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Godi came later. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is either Vincent Smith or Gavin, Gavin Woods. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Who was an IFP. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That person. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So they also raised concerns and they called us and Page 65 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 we had a joint meeting with them Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: These were formal meeting I presume in relation to which minutes would have been kept? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was formal meetings. It was formal meetings. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you speak to Minister Balfour? You already said he did. You did rather. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, correct. I, I, not one. Man, many a times. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What was your view about the status of Mr Mti and how he managed to maintain his position for as long as he did? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson to me it was quite clear that Mr Mti, Linda Mti had the support and the protection of Minister Balfour. That is what I have seen and what I have observed to watch this thing. He was very protective of Linda Mti. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Mr Bloem you have given. CHAIRPERSON: Well I do not know whether you intended to ask him to say something about the basis for his statement or you were not intending to. Maybe I will 20 ask. Are you able to give me some factual basis for your statement that Mr Mti enjoyed the protection and support of Minister Ngconde Balfour? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson many a times when both of them appear before the Portfolio Committee and we, we ask difficult questions to the Department, Mr Mti or Gillingham the Minister will interject and say he will answer such questions. When we, I meet with him personally one by one he will tell me that no Comrade Bloem Page 66 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 you know this comrade is an experienced comrade. We must not harass this comrade. Let us, let us treat him well. That is my conclusion. That is my observa tion. That is why I am saying that Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Mr Bloem you have given evidence at a general level of the history of the Portfolio Committee, its relationship with the Department of Correctional Services and the Minister in relation to particular contracts. You have raised your concerns. Of course you have already told the Chair that much of this information will be minuted and documented. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is right Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You are prepared to cooperate no doubt in assisting the investigators with their investigations into detail in this regard? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I am 24 hours available Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I will cooperate. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Let us move then to the statement at paragraph 11. In 2004 and in 2009 I understand you were Chair of the, this Portfolio Committee? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes Chair, yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You, did you have an office in Parliament, because you occupied this position? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What was kept in this office? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair all the documentation, all the briefing Page 67 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 documentation and my personal belongings were kept in that office in Parliament. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did you keep computers, digital information in that office? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What happened in 2004 and again in 2009? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson my office, there was a break in, in my office and the only thing that was missing was some of the documentation. That is the first, the first break in. Then the second one the same thing happened, documentation was missing and I reported it to the Secretary to Parliament even to the police, but up 10 until now no action was taken. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: This office was it located within the Parliament Building? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was in the Parliament building, in the Parliament. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Is there high security there? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Very high security with cameras in the, in the passages, high security. CHAIRPERSON: ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Have you any explanation for why on not one occasion, but on two occasions this could occur? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I cannot answer that question, because I reported it. 20 There was no follow up, no feedback. I asked the question what happened to my office, no answer Chair. CHAIRPERSON: So would it have been the Secretary of Parliament and the police because you reported to both who should have investigated or initiated an investigation and ultimately there should have been a report that you would have been told about which explained what was found during the investigation? Page 68 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON: But that never happened? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Never, never, never feedback. Nothing happened, Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Well perhaps you might mention to the Chair without speculating or speculating too much because the question I am going to ask you involves speculation. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: 2004 to 2009 at that time was your view in relation to 10 outsourcing of the Department of Correctional Services contracts and your view in relation to their award to Bosasa a matter of public knowledge? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Everybody knows in this country that I was very vocal on, on these issues Chairperson. Everybody knows. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Do you know whether the video footage was ever examined, the security cameras within Parliament? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I do not know Chair. That is why I am saying there was no feedback on the break ins, nothing. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Perhaps our investigators could look at that Chair. You personally you have told the Chair that it was a matter of public knowledge your views 20 in relation to the issues about which you have testified. Did you ever yourself r eceive threats and you deal with an issue in paragraph 13? Tell the Chair about that please. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Paragraph 30? ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: 13, 1-3. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. Chairperson the last break in before I left Parliament as a member of the ANC and as the Chairperson my office was again Page 69 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ransacked. Many documents and only documents. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Were taken. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: This letter or this document that Angelo Agrizzi was talking here of me being protecting and promoting white capital was part and parcel of the documents that went missing. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In that document they were swearing at me and my 10 family and whatever in that document. I was, I was keeping that document in my office, but during that that break in. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: They took it. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: My personal belongings. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, very valuable things. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Were taken Chairperson. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm, hm. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: So in short during your term as chair of the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services you received what you describe as an anonymous letter in which you were attacked? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. Page 70 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right and that document you no longer have because it is amongst documents stolen from your office? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Was the attack in the document and were the insults in the document related to your views or position with regard to contracts and tenders at Correctional Services or was it about something else? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No it was about Bosasa, the contracts Chair. It was in that document. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What in particular in that letter you were accused of what? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I was promoting white capital. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Right. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: They were saying I was promoting and I am protecting white capital. Why I am fighting Bosasa because Bosasa is giving a lot of people work. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Oh I see. The irony will not be lost on the Chair about you attacking Bosasa and white monopoly capital at the same time but perhaps we can deal with that in submissions. One morning you say in paragraph 14 you received a visit in your office. More or less when was this? 20 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I was sitting in my office doing work and one of my committee members Ms Winnie Ngwenya came to my office and she is saying that she wants to discuss something with me. I ask what is it all about. She said no she was sent by people. I asked her who is this people. She said it is the owners of Bosasa they want to meet with me. And I said to her I am not interested. I am doing my work here in this committee. And must I continue? Page 71 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Yes please go on. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. And she said to me Chairperson you are playing with your luck. You must see these people. I said no I am not going to see this. I am not interested in meeting these people. Then she said to me Chairperson [foreign word]. I said Comrade Winnie I am not interested. She is saying this is money Chair. I said I am not going to meet with them and that was the end. Then she went out of the office. I never met with those people but Comrade Winnie Ngwenya they were sending Winnie to me so that we must have a meeting with them. I refuse d. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Do you know the meaning of the words [foreign word]? I 10 do not know if I pronounced it correctly. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It is township slang. When you are referring to money you say [foreign word] it is money. CHAIRPERSON: Well I know it too. (laughing). DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja there is the Chairperson. The Chairperson also know it as [foreign word]. CHAIRPERSON: What was your understanding of what she was conveying to you when she said Chairperson [foreign word] it is money or this is money? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson my understanding was this Bosasa was already all over the media and what and you know there was this allegations of cars 20 bought to Linda Mti to Gillingham. It was in the papers it was all over. And I sa id to myself I am not going to be part of that. Because it is public knowledge Chairperson there was these cars, there was this Volkswagen Tiguan that Mr Mti was involved in and I am saying it is allegations at that time and I did not want to get involved in this people. Why must I meet them? My work as a member of parliament was to do oversight. Page 72 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: That might have been reasons why you were not prepared to meet with Bosasa but my question was, what was your understanding of what she was conveying to you when she said Chairperson [foreign word]? I think before that you said she said to you, you are playing with your luck. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Do you want to just explain to us what she – what your understanding was of what she was conveying to you with these phrases? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson my only understanding at the time was that these people wants to come near me because I was very vocal on these tenders and 10 what. Now they have sent one of my committee members to soften me to get to them. And I was not there in their conversation Chair but what I think they have said to her no money is not a problem we can give him. I am saying I was not in their conversation but she said to me [foreign word]. CHAIRPERSON: And when she said that she did not – she did not show you any money in her hand? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No, no, no Chair no. CHAIRPERSON: So this money that she was talking about your understanding was not money that she was going to give to her herself? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No she did not have money. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No Chair she did not have money in her hands. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, yes thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you Chair. If you look at paragraph 15 at the top of page 10 of your statement Mr Bloem? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: At page? Page 73 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: 10. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: 10 ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The very first line. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You say there precisely what at least in the statement was said to you by Mr Ngwenya. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Can you confirm the full sentence you refer to here and the words you say were used by Ms Ngwenya in relation to money whether in slang 10 language or not? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. Ms Ngwenya said Winnie then responded and said Chairperson this is money [foreign word] Chairperson. Do not leave it. She then left and we did not discuss it again. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Is that as you recall. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The conversation? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: What conclusion did you reach after her approach and after you heard the testimony of Mr Agrizzi before this commission? 20 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I was all the time worried and concerned about the attitude of Winnie in the meetings. She can be very cool and calm with any other discussion but when it comes to Bosasa or Sondolo then she will become very protective, very negative towards the discussion and protect them. Now Chairperson I know – I know that the members of the committee and I was having a very good working relationship with them, all of them but after – I was not suspecting anything Page 74 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 Chair but after Agrizzi was now testifying about how people were bought now I am getting a clearer picture to say no but why this has happened it is because of this that is my only, only conclusion Chair that I am having now. To say why was this person so protective and negative when it comes to this company? CHAIRPERSON: My mind is still – I hear what you are saying and it is important but part of my mind is still with that – with what she said to you. You are playing with your luck Chairperson [foreign word]. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Do not leave it. 10 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: I am going to put to you what may well be one of the possible interpretations of what she was saying to you and give you a chance to say whether you think that is one of the possible interpretations or not. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Can it be said that what she meant was that here was an opportunity for you to make money, use it or do not disregard it or something like that? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Here is a chance to make money Chairperson that is my observation and my conclusion. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: During the period of your chairmanship of the Portfolio Committee you say it was public knowledge what your attitude was at the time? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Particularly in relation to Bosasa? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. Page 75 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: At that time did you ever receive phone calls out of the ordinary? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, yes Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Tell the Chair about that please. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair during this time when I was so vocal about these tenders I received many, many calls but from private phones threatening me with my life. I have kept it – tried to keep it away from my wife, my family so that I must not affect them. So that I must keep it away from them and I must stomach it myself. But one day Chair unfortunately it was on a Friday I was with my wife, Friday afternoon and 10 I received a call. This person was saying we – we – let me – CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to refresh your memory? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No this person was telling me we are following you and we are going to finish you. I said to this caller please come I am waiting for you and this person dropped the phone. When he dropped the phone my wife was asking me why did you shout over the phone, I had to tell her that what happened now that this. And so it was between me and my wife. I ask her not to tell anybody because – let me just drink a little bit of water. You see Chairperson because.. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I was never ever scared of anything, never. Even now that 20 is why I am sitting here. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Nobody will intimidate me. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: But I do not want anybody to touch my family. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 76 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So my wife kept it a secret as well. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Up until now. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Because I discussed it with her. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is what is – you see Chairperson why I kept it. During our struggle it is not the first time that I am getting this type of things. CHAIRPERSON: Yes Nkosi. 10 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The security police was doing that to me all the time. So telling me that they are going to kill me there outside the house and they are following me and what so I know that if I am going to go in a corner they will get me. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: But I was all the time prepared. That is why I said to this person and all the time Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I said to these people when they called me no come. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Come I am also ready for you, please come. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is how this intimidation was carrying out on me Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Yes Mr Pretorius. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You deal in paragraph 18 Mr Bloem with certain other communications within parliament. Please tell the Chair about that? Take your time to look at it. Page 77 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson when I was so vocal in this thing I can tell you Chairperson after each and every meeting of the Portfolio Committee when we were dealing with this Bosasa or these tenders. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I – the chief whip of the ANC will call me and warn me and reprimand me that what I am doing is wrong because this is deploys of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And I am all the time fighting against them. All the time Chairperson I was in the chief – if it is not because we had meetings on Tuesdays. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ys. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: If it is not Tuesday afternoon Wednesday morning I know that I must appear there. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In the chief whip’s office to go and answer why I am so vocal? Why I oppose this thing so much and so. That is what has happened Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. And I assume that you would tell the chief whip but this is wrong and it is our job and my job as chairperson of the committee to raise these issues? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I have never ever backed down on what I 20 have believed in. Never ever. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And what would he all the time tell you it was simply that these are ANC deployees or that you are putting the ANC in a bad light or what would he be saying each time he called you and you told him the same thing. This thing is wrong? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No he will say to me, you must know that you are a deployee of the ANC. You are not your own boss. Page 78 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: You are going to follow party line. You cannot do whatever you do. We are going to remove you from that position. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You were a member of the ANC the ruling party then as now but you are no longer a member of the ANC now. Was it your understanding that the policy and the values of the ruling party required you to – not to raise issues when you see – when you saw things that were wrong that were being done? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson it was never ever the policy of the ANC. It was never. 10 The ANC was the most respected party, liberation movement in the continent and in the world. Those things that has happened was personal greed. They were greedy to stop me and corruption. It was not the ANC it was not the ANC policy Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: So you are quite clear in your mind that certainly at that time while you were a member of the ANC it was not the ANC policy and it was not part of the values of the ANC that if a deployee of the ANC and government was doing something wrong you should keep quiet while you are a member of the oversight committee for that department. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was never the ANC policy Chairperson and the values of the ANC. I, Chairperson I worked with – when the late President Mandela came out of 20 prison I served under him for five years. President Thabo Mbeki I served under President Thabo Mbeki. Those people were having the values of the ANC at that time. It was never about yourself. It was about the people of the country. CHAIRPERSON: I take it and you must tell me if I am wrong. I take it that your position therefore is that when the chief whip – when the then chief whip told you not to raise these issues in regard to Bosasa and Correctional Services he was the one that Page 79 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 was going against the policies and the values of the ANC? I take it that that would be your position that – not that you were out of – you were going against the values and policy of the ANC. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Not only him Chairperson but all these other members of the ANC who was against what we were doing in the Portfolio Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: We were not following the values and the principles of the ANC. They were not doing that. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Within the Portfolio Committee of Correctional Services I know 10 you said earlier on that in that committee while you were chairperson you worked as a unit irrespective of political party affiliation membership. The raising of these issues was it also done as a unit in the sense that it was just individuals raising them? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chair let me understand the question properly. Are you saying the entire study group? CHAIRPERSON: No, no I am talking about the Portfolio Committee now. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja in the Portfolio Committee the issues that you were raising about Bosasa. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON: It was just not you alone. It was not you and a few members of the committee. It was either most of the members of the committee or the whole committee who were raising these issues, what was the position? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was Chairperson it was the committee. CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: The entire committee. Page 80 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes okay. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja because we were in the majority. I will single out one or two people. CHAIRPERSON: Yes okay. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: But the majority opposition and the ANC. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I can tell you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In the committee there were very credible ANC members. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Who never ever flouted the principles and values of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In paragraph 18 on page 11 you wanted to tell the commission about your response to the passing away of Vernie Petersen the former DCS Commissioner. Now I understand that you want to tell the Chair of your concerns here and I am not going to stand in your way. Just to emphasise that you have a belief but it is not based on any concrete fact as I understand it. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. 20 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Other than the views and attitudes he expressed. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: If I may then ask the witness? CHAIRPERSON: Yes that is fine. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Ask the witness to deal with his concerns in that paragraph Chair? Page 81 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Okay that is fine. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson I am having a personal plea. CHAIRPERSON: Take your time. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: I am having a personal plea to the committee – to the commission. CHAIRPERSON: Would you like us to take – I think let us take a five minutes adjournment for Mr Bloem to – I think he needs some time. Let us adjourn for five minutes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: No it is fine Chair. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Is it fine? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. I am having a personal plea Chair to the commission please investigate the death of Vernie Petersen because Vernie Petersen was very vocal and against this thing of what is happening. And all of a sudden Vernie Petersen died a mysterious death. I am pleading and the reason why I am saying that is that his wife and children will be put at rest because this thing of Vernie Petersen will never die because he was – he was against corruption and he fought against these tenders of Bosasa. That is my personal plea Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: No thank you Mr Bloem. Thank you Mr Bloem we have heard – we have heard what you have said and we will reflect on it the legal team and the 20 investigators will reflect on it and ja okay. Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Mr Bloem you mentioned the judicial committee, the oversight committee. I think its correct name is the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons.. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Do you have anything to add in respect of that committee? Page 82 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson there was a judge during my time. The head of this Judicial. CHAIRPERSON: Judicial Inspectorate. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: His name was – his surname was Erasmus. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson if the committee can call him as well. Chairperson he raised in his reports many a times objection to this tenders. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In his annual reports because the judges were giving annual reports. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja and he was raising those things all the time. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Do you know whether he was from the Western Cape high court? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: He is from the Western Cape high court. CHAIRPERSON: Oh because there is a Judge Erasmus in the Western Cape high court. 20 DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes it is Judge Erasmus ja. CHAIRPERSON: Ja but you say his reports – some of his reports will reflect his concerns and objections to this? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Exactly. Exactly Chairperson. And according to me he is an honourable person. He will give information to the commission. CHAIRPERSON: To the commission. No thank you very much. Thank you very much. Page 83 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In fact I understand that he has expressed his sentiments to you? DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: He called me Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Ys. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And he said Judge Erasmus said to me Mr Bloem I am giving you full permission to tell the commission that I am prepared to contribute and help this commission with information. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much yes. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So he is prepared. 10 CHAIRPERSON: He offered ja. DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: No thank you very much for that. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Before Mr Bloem makes closing remarks Chair there is some further information that he has brought to the attention of the investigators who recorded it in a supplementary affidavit but it is not in a state to be handed up and I would like to lead the evidence if I may and then we can put that evidence into the form of a supplementary affidavit. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. That is fine. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And may we, I, I understand and trust that you would 20 want to continue for the next 10 minutes or so to conclude the evidence? CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I, I would prefer that we conclude. So that, because he is the only witness we have for today. Is it not? ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: So that when we adjourn we are done for the day. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you Chair. Page 84 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The supplementary note do you have it before you? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: We will put this in affidavit form in due course. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: But it refers to a meeting that took place in October 2008. Am I correct? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is correct, yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: 10 What happened at that meeting? Well firstly what meeting are you referring to? Secondly, what happened at the meeting? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: It was a Portfolio Committee Meeting in Parliament. The, the, the Commissioner was Vernie Petersen. The Commissioner was telling us as I, I have said before that he is against these tenders of Bosasa, this outsourcing. He, he, he briefed the, the Committee further about the resignation of a newly appointed CFO, Ms Nadira Singh. She was there for a few, few, few, few months. She was the only and a qualified chartered account, because Commissioner Petersen to clean the department, but unfortunately she uncovered corruption and she was then threatened with her life and she resigned immediately, with immediate effect. That is that Commissioner reported to the, to the Committee. That here is a person, qualified 20 person for the first time that we are having a qualified chartered accountant. This person is gone, because of; Chairperson I must, I must, I must say it to the Commissioner. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Correctional Services it is a very, very dangerous place, department. When you are being targeted you are being targeted. Page 85 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And you, you must be very careful because something can happen to you. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: So Nadira decided to, to resign. Commissioner was also saying to us he was criticising this Bosasa contract and saying that why are you outsourcing because we are having farms. We are producing our own food and, and, and so on. In the meeting, where Gillingham and them were there in the meeting. He was, he was, he was very vocal Chairperson. That is why they have removed him from 10 the Committee. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You say. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: That is what has happened in that meeting. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You say he lasted a year? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: He lasted for a year Chair and then he was gone. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In his position as Commissioner of Correctional Services? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja, the new one, ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did he mention in that meeting anything about planning and budgeting? 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: He was saying to us poor planning and budgeting in the Department of Correctional Services is a very serious problem. He said millions of Rands have been wasted in the tendering, catering and, and, and TV con tracts. He, Vernie Petersen and he said this thing must come to an end. That is what he had said then in that meeting Chair. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Did he talk about the redirection of funds in that Page 86 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 meeting? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Ja, he said that people are, are, are, are redirecting money intended for certain projects to secure lucrative food contracts and TVs. That is what Mr Petersen the Commissioner had said. Money is being diverted to this catering and television, because these people were hell bent Chairperson that this thing must go on the kitchen, the outsourcing of the kitchen and this thing of the television sets. Nobody could stop them. So Mr Petersen was talking about those things. CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when in relation to his departure from Correctional Services that were when he, when he, when he spoke like that? In other words how 10 close was it or how soon after that was he removed? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: A few. CHAIRPERSON: Or was, was there any relationship at all between him articulating that stance and his removal from Correctional Services? Is there any proximity between the two? MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson a few months after this meeting he was removed. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And then he was taken to Sports. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And Recreation. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Everybody Chairperson, all the NGOs that have worked with us. Everybody. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Was very surprised. Page 87 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: And shocked. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: About his removal. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: From Correctional Services. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: But all of us knew that it is because of this thing. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: This man fought against corruption. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: In the Department of Correctional Services. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you Mr Bloem. You wished also to make some concluding remarks. May he make then Chair? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. That is fine. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: You do so in paragraph 19 of your statement. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Chairperson thank you very much. The reason w hy I have decided to come to this Commission I really want to see anybody who has made 20 him or her guilty of corruption or any other crime must be imprisoned. They must go to jail. Chairperson the reason why I am saying so Nelson Mandela many other leaders went to prison for a very long time. Many people went into exile for a very long time. Other people have paid with their lives for this freedom that we are that we are enjoying today. We cannot allow that this thing must happen when we are still alive . Chairperson we, we must encourage each and every person, we must rid this country Page 88 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 from this corruption that we are facing today and Chairperson I must say I am having full confidence in this Commission and I want to, to give you the assurance Chairperso n that I am all the time, all the time ready to assist, but there are other people out there who know about this corruption and state capture must come forward. Chairperson it is not only in the Department of Correctional Services. Many other departments are also having this problem. I am saying Chairperson that people must come forward and assist because I am doing it Chairperson to assist this country. I do not want my children Chairperson to, to, to live a life under a corrupt society. We must, we m ust save this country Chairperson and I am having full confidence in you Chairperson that 10 you, you, you are the hope of South Africa as we speak now at this Commission. Thank you very much Chair. CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you very much for your closing remarks Mr Bloem. As I indicated earlier on I really appreciate that you have come forward to assist this Commission and you are quite correct that everybody out there who loves this country who appreciates the sacrifices that were made by very, very many peo ple in order for this country to be free, everyone who appreciates all of those things who has got knowledge and information of corruption, a serious corruption that has been happening in our country that continues to happen and acts of state capture must come forward and give information to the Commission, give evidence to the Commission so that at 20 least this Commission will have a good and complete picture of how state capture happened. Who facilitated it, who participated in it, who were involved in cov ering up corruption, who did not want other people to fight corruption, who were, who were busy facilitating corruption so that among other things this Commission can make recommendations as to what measures this country needs to take or to put in place in order to make sure that state capture never happens again and that there is hope that Page 89 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 one day this country would be a country free of corruption. Of course we know that no country is completely free of corruption, but there is no reason why this country cannot in due course arrive at a time when corruption would be so negligible that we are all able, we can all be able to say our is a corruption free country, relatively speaking. So we thank you very much. I hope that other members of Parliament who may also be aware of issues of state capture, issues of corruption and maybe who may also be aware how Portfolio Committees in which they served how they were unable to play their proper oversight role because of people who may have been abetting state capture and corruption. That they will also come forward and be able to tell the 10 Commission and therefore share with the nation what has happened because if they do not come out and tell us we might not know the full extent of what has happened in terms of state capture and corruption. We might not know how Parliament was affected by state capture and corruption and therefore we might not be able to make effective recommendations as to what should be put in place to make sure that this country becomes a better country tomorrow. Thank you very much Mr Bloem. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Thanks. CHAIRPERSON: I will release you for now, but from what you have said it is clear that you will come back. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Because there is more that you want to tell the Commission. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: So, and you will continue to cooperate with the investigators. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: So that arrangements can be made for you in due course . MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. Page 90 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 CHAIRPERSON: To come back and give us more, more evidence. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: You are released. MR DENNIS VICTOR BLOEM: Thanks Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Pretorius [intervenes]. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: As foreshadowed may we adjourn now. There are four other witnesses who need to be called. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: In order to wrap up at least for the present, this phase of evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The four witnesses can conveniently complete their evidence on Tuesday. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And the, if the Commission does not sit on Monday. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: It will give us some time. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: To prepare. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: The necessary evidence so that it can be completed on Page 91 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 Tuesday. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And then Chair I do not know if you wish me to mention the rest of the week or whether you wish to do so. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we can mention it on Tuesday. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, maybe we can mention on Tuesday what will happen for the rest of the week. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: As you please Chair. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Or actually now I remember. So I think you, you, you were hinting that maybe I should mention it now. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Well it is up to you Chair. It was only a hint Chair. CHAIRPERSON: [Laughing]. Well maybe let us, let me do it on, on Tuesday when we have seen, because what if we do not finish on Tuesday. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Yes, we may not finish on Tuesday. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja, so. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: And therefore Wednesday we keep in reserve. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Chair I was thinking of the later part of the week. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Well I think let me announce on Tuesday, ja. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: As you please Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. We adjourn therefore and will not sit on Monday, but we will resume on Tuesday at 10 o’ clock. We adjourn. ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Thank you Chair. REGISTRAR: All rise. Page 92 of 93 1 FEBRUARY 2019 – DAY 45 INQUIRY ADJOURNS 10 20 Page 93 of 93