C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

1 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 2 4

20

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
P R O C E E D I N G S O N 1 J U LY 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s B u th e l e z i , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s w e a r e . C h a ir o u r w i t n e s s f o r to d a y i s
Ms Mthulwane Mpshe she – may I ask that the witness be sworn in?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r r e c o r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M a t h u l w a n e M p s h e .
10

REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n s i n t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ; th e w h o le tr u th a n d n o t h in g b u t th e t r u th ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
REGISTRAR:
20

I f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e

God.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o h e l p m e G o d .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir m a y I …
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M a y I p r o p o s e t h a t th e t w o f il e s th a t w e w i ll

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
b e u s i n g t o d a y t o le a d M s M p s h e ’s e v i d e n c e b e m a r k e d a s Ex h ib i t
D D 1 5 A a n d B . A is th e e x h i b i t th a t w e w i ll h a v e , th e s t a t e m e n t o f M s
M p s h e a n d B h a s t h e b a l a n c e o f t h e e x h i b i ts o r th e a n n e x u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e 1 5 i n o r d e r th e r e a f te r D D ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s i t is in o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: It is in order?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t i s i n o r d e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
10

M s – In i ti a l ly M s M p s h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o

c o m e b e fo r e D o c t o r D a h w a b u t d u e t o s o m e c h a n g e s s h e h a d to c o m e
a ft e r D o c to b e r D a h w a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n ta in i n g t h e a ffi d a v it o r

s t a te m e n t o f M s M a h u l w a n e E m il y M p s h e w i ll b e m a r k e d Ex h i b it
D D 1 5 [a ] a n d t h e o n e w i t h t h e r e s t o f a n n e x u r e s to h e r s t a te m e n t w i ll b e
marked Exhibit DD15[b].
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ms M p s h e t h e r e a r e tw o f il e s i n fr o n t o f

y o u . O n e w i t h y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d s o m e o f t h e a n n e x u r e s a n d t h e o t h e r
20

o n e c o n t a i n s t h e b a la n c e o f y o u r a n n e x u r e s .

I f y o u l o o k a t E x h i b it

D D 1 5 [a ] fr o m p a g e 1 t o 3 5 d o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u m u s t w a i t f o r h e r t o – to s e e w h i c h f il e is
w h ic h o n e . H a v e y o u g o t b o th fi l e s i n fr o n t o f y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

A n d y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h i c h o n e is

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
E x h i b i t D D 1 5 [ a ] a n d w h ic h o n e is E x h i b i t D D 1 5 [ b ]?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. T h a n k y o u .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u M s M p s h e . D o y o u c o n fi r m t h a t
t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t is in D D [ a ] fr o m p a g e 1 t o p a g e 3 5 i s t h e s t a te m e n t –
is y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d f o r th e c o m m is s i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I c o n f i r m i t is c o r r e c t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d th e s ig n a t u r e t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I a m s o r r y – I a m s o r r y.

P le a s e s w i tc h o n y o u r

m ic r o p h o n e a n d t h e n M s B u t h e le z i w i ll h a v e t o . . .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h le t m e s t a r t a f r e s h ?
CHAIRPERSON:

A s k th a t q u e s t i o n a fr e s h s o t h a t h e r a n s w e r c a n g o

in t o t h e r e c o r d .
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t th e
document that appears on page 1 to page 36 on Exhibit DD[a] is your
a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u m a d e fo r t h e c o m m is s i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I d o c o n fir m .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d t h e s i g n a t u r e th a t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 3 5
o f t h a t d o c u m e n t d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t is y o u r s ig n a t u r e ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I c o n f i r m i t is m y s ig n a tu r e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u M s M p s h e . M s M p s h e w o u l d y o u
p l e a s e p l a c e y o u r q u a l i fi c a t io n s a n d t h e p o s i t io n th a t y o u h a v e h e l d a t
SAA to record?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M y q u a l if ic a ti o n s a r e a s fo ll o w s : I
h a v e a P o s t G r a d u a t e D i p lo m a i n B u s i n e s s M a n a g e m e n t fr o m U n iv e r s it y

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o f W a r w ic k in th e U K . I h a v e a B . C o m fr o m U n iv e r s i ty o f S o u t h A f r i c a .
I h a v e a n A s s o c ia t e B a n k i n g D i p lo m a fr o m t h e In s ti t u t e o f B a n k e r s i n
S o u th A f r i c a .

I h a v e a L ic e n t ia t e I n t e r n a ti o n a l B a n k in g D ip lo m a f r o m

I n s ti t u te o f B a n k e r s in S o u t h A fr ic a a n d I a ls o h a v e v a r i o u s o t h e r
p r o g r a m m e s t h a t I h a v e a t t e n d e d i n l in e w i t h m y c a r e e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d f o r – w h e n d id y o u j o i n S A A ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I j o in e d S A A o n t h e 1 S e p te m b e r

2010.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d i d y o u h o l d a t t h e t i m e ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I was General Manager Human

Resources.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h e n d id y o u le a v e S A A ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I le f t S A A o ff ic i a l o n t h e 3 0 M a r c h
2018.
A D V Z IN H L E B U TH E L E Z I : A n d w h a t p o s i t io n d o y o u c u r r e n tly h o l d a n d
for which company?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I a m th e Ac t in g G e n e r a l M a n a g e r

H u m a n C a p i ta l a t S o u th A fr ic a n E x p r e s s A i r w a y s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

Ye s .

On paragraph – on page 3 of your

s t a te m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 y o u d e a l w i t h y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t a s a n A c t i n g
CEO at SAA in mid-2015.

C o u ld y o u p le a s e b r i e fly t e l l u s th e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t le d to y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t a s a n Ac t in g C E O ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s – I th i n k i t w a s th e e n d o f

J u l y i n 2 0 1 5 w e w e r e c a ll e d a s t h e E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e in t o w h a t w e
c a l l e d a s m a ll b o a r d r o o m b y o n e o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s Mr To n y D ix o n

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f o r a n u r g e n t m e e t in g . A t t h a t u r g e n t m e e ti n g M r To n y D i x o n i n fo r m e d
u s t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d h a s a s k e d h i m to r e l a y t h e
m e s s a g e t o u s t h a t M r N ic o B e z u i d e n h o u t is r e t u r n t o M a n g o A ir li n e s .
M r B e z u i d e n h o u t w a s th e A c t i n g C E O a t S A A a t t h a t ti m e . H e w a n ts to
r e tu r n t o M a n g o A ir li n e s w h e r e h is r o l e a s C E O o f M a n g o .

And

i m m e d i a t e ly h e t h e n i n f o r m e d u s t h a t th e C h a ir h a d a ls o in s tr u c te d t h a t
I b e a p p o i n te d a s th e Ac t in g C E O .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

A n d fo r h o w l o n g d i d y o u r e m a in in

t h is p o s i t io n a s a C E O ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Fr o m J u ly t o N o v e m b e r.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s .

If I look at paragraph 13 of your

s t a te m e n t y o u s a y i n g a t fi r s t y o u r e f u s e d t o a c c e p t t h is p o s i ti o n b u t
u p o n p e r s u a s io n b y y o u r c o ll e a g u e s a n d d is c u s s i o n s w i t h f a m il y y o u
a c c e p te d . M y q u e s t i o n is , w h y w e r e y o u r e fu s i n g a t t h e fir s t p l a c e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I r e f u s e d b e c a u s e it c a m e a s a

s h o c k t h a t fo r m e i t w a s u n c e r e m o n i o u s t h a t w e j u s t b e in f o r m e d t h a t
M r N ic o B e z u i d e n h o u t h a d t o g o b a c k t o M a n g o t h e A c ti n g C E O a t th a t
ti m e h e w a s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h e 9 0 d a y tu r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y. A n d i t w a s
ju s t t o o s u d d e n .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d h o w lo n g w a s Mr B e z u id e n h o u t in t h a t
p o s i ti o n p r i o r to y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t m u s t h a v e b e e n A p r il 2 0 1 4 w h e n
t h e p r e v i o u s C E O M r K a l a w e l e f t a n d p r i o r t o t h a t h e w a s a ls o A c ti n g
CEO.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

S o it w a s f o r a b o u t t w o m o n t h s a t th a t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
ti m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d w h o s u c c e e d e d h i m ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l M s B u t h e l e z i . M r M p s h e a l t h o u g h s h e is a s k i n g
y o u t h e q u e s ti o n s th e p e r s o n y o u a r e t e l li n g t h e s to r y i s m e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o I n e e d t o s e e a n d o b s e r v e a s y o u g iv e

e v i d e n c e s o y o u a r e t e l li n g t h e s to r y to m e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I a m s o r r y a b o u t t h a t C h a ir. P le a s e l o o k –
w h e n y o u a n s w e r p l e a s e d o a n s w e r t o t h e C h a ir.

Mr Mpshe who

s u c c e e d e d y o u i n t h is p o s i ti o n w h e n y o u l e f t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s s u c c e e d e d b y …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll m a y b e b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d

t h a t i n i ti a l ly y o u r e f u s e d t h e a c t i n g a p p o i n t m e n t a s C E O a n d y o u s a i d
t h a t w a s b e c a u s e th e w h o l e d e c i s i o n w a s to o s u d d e n . N o w h a d t h e r e
b e e n a n y d is c u s s i o n a t a l l w i th y o u t o i n d i c a t e th a t th e r e w a s a n
in c li n a ti o n t o a p p o i n t y o u a s Ac t in g C E O o n t h e p a r t o f t h e b o a r d o r th e
20

C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d o r w e r e y o u h e a r in g t h is f o r th e fir s t ti m e lik e
everybody?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
w h a ts o e v e r.

C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o i n d ic a ti o n

T h e fi r s t ti m e I h e a r d a b o u t it w a s w h e n w e w e r e i n a

m e e ti n g w i th a l l th e e x e c u t iv e c o m m i t t e e m e m b e r s . A n d it w a s a ls o o n e
o f m y r e a s o n s w h e r e I f e l t th a t I w a s n o t e v e n a ffo r d e d t h e c u r t e s y to

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
b e in f o r m e d u p fr o n t . A n d ju s t i n a m e e ti n g t h e n e w s w a s j u s t th r o w n a t
m e lik e th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u h a d n o t b e e n a s k e d w h e t h e r y o u w o u ld b e

w i ll in g to a c c e p t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t i f y o u w e r e – is s u c h a d e c is i o n w a s
taken?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir I w a s n o t a s k e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e m e s s a g e w a s t h e C h a ir s a y s

y o u w il l b e th e Ac t in g C E O .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . A n d y o u s a id y o u r e m a i n e d i n
t h is p o s i t io n u n t il N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h o th e n c a m e a f t e r y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r M u s a Z w a n e .
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

Thank you.

O n t h e n e x t t o p ic o n y o u r

a ffi d a v i t i t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u d e a l w it h
C h a ir p e r s o n s i n te r f e r e n c e w i t h d a il y o p e r a ti o n s .

Further down on the

n e x t p a g e y o u h a v e g i v e n s o m e e x a m p le s o f i n s ta n c e s t h a t y o u w o u ld
20

d e s c r ib e d a s i n t e r f e r e n c e b y C h a ir o n d a y – d a ily o p e r a ti o n s a t S A A .
Fi r s t o f a l l w h o is t h e C h a ir th a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e C h a ir I a m r e f e r r in g t o is M s

D u d u My e n i .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . Yo u g iv e u s s o m e e x a m p l e s o f
t h e in t e r f e r e n c e b y th e C h a ir. T h e f ir s t …

Page 8 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e b e f o r e t h a t Ms M p s h e I h a v e h e a r d

e v i d e n c e t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a t i m e w h e n t h e b o a r d o f S A A
c o n s i s te d o f o n l y th r e e d ir e c t o r s a n d n o n - e x e c u ti v e d ir e c to r s . I t t h i n k i t
w a s Ms D u d u M y e n i, M s K w in a n a a n d I th i n k D o c t o r Ta b i …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : D o c to r Ta m b i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s Ta m b i .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D u r i n g t h e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e A c ti n g C E O w a s t h a t
t h e ti m e w h e n th e r e w e r e o n ly t h r e e m e m b e r s o f t h e b o a r d w h o w e r e
10

n o n - e x e c u ti v e o r th a t w a s n o t t h e t i m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e w e r e f o u r a t th e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e f o u r th o n e w a s M r To n y

Dixon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e s u b s e q u e n tly r e s i g n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

B y t h e ti m e I e n d e d m y t e n u r e a s

A c ti n g C E O h e h a d a lr e a d y r e s i g n e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n y o u s ta r t e d a s A c t in g C E O t h e r e fo u r

m e m b e r s – n o n - e x e c u ti v e m e m b e r s o f th e b o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t w a s t h e t h r e e t h a t I h a v e j u s t m e n ti o n e d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e o n e th a t y o u h a v e m e n t io n e d .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b e f o r e y o u r a c ti n g p e r i o d e n d e d o n e h a d r e s i g n e d
n a m e ly M r D ix o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

Ms Mpshe do you remember when he

r e s ig n e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

H e r e s ig n e d I t h i n k c o u l d h a v e

b e e n J u ly – e n d o f J u ly o r A u g u s t , y e s .
10

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Thank you.

Then let us go back to the –

w h a t y o u d e s c r i b e a s in t e r f e r e n c e b y t h e C h a ir to t h e d a i ly o p e r a ti o n s .
T h e f ir s t t o p ic t h a t y o u d e a l w i th w a s a n i n s tr u c ti o n to a p p o in t C a p t a i n
M p h o M a m a s h e la in t o a p o s i ti o n o f a n O p e r a ti o n s O ff ic e r.

This

in t e r fe r e n c e th a t y o u r e f e r to h o w d i d i t h a p p e n i n t h is i n s t a n c e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th is w h a t I t e r m a n i n t e r fe r e n c e

h a p p e n e d a r o u n d M a r c h 2 0 1 5 b e f o r e I w a s a p p o i n t e d i n t o t h e p o s i t io n
o f Ac t in g C E O .

At the time I was the General Manager Human

R e s o u r c e s . W e h a d s t a r t e d t h e S e c ti o n 1 8 9 p r o c e s s o f r e tr e n c h m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

s p e c i f ic o n e s .

I am sorry Ms Mpshe.

M a y b e b e f o r e y o u s ta r t w i t h

I n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it y o u d o m a k e g e n e r a l

o b s e r v a t i o n s a b o u t i n te r f e r e n c e d o y o u – ju s t t a lk a b o u t th a t fi r s t i n
g e n e r a l a n d th e n g o to t h e s p e c i fi c t h a t M s B u th e l e z i h a s a s k e d y o u
about
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 10 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

In my personal experience the

C h a ir h a d – w il l g iv e i n s t r u c t i o n s t o a p p o i n t p e r s o n s i n c e r ta i n p o s i ti o n s
a n d a s k e d f o r d i s c ip li n a r y a c t i o n s t o b e t a k e n a g a in s t e m p l o y e e s a n d
t h is i n s tr u c t io n s w o u ld n o t b e t h a t fo r e x a m p le w h e n y o u s a y a p p o i n t a
p e r s o n o r d i n a r i ly th e c o m p a n y h a s g o t a r e c r u i t m e n t p o l ic y a n d t h e
r e c r u it m e n t i s l in k e d to a v a c a n c y i n t h e c o m p a n y o r li n k e d t o a n e w
p o s i ti o n in th e c o m p a n y.
10

T h e r e w il l b e a p r o c e s s th a t w il l h a v e t o

f o ll o w t o a p p o in t s o m e o n e . B u t s h e w il l ju s t c o m e a n d s a y a p p o i n t t h is
p e r s o n i n th is p o s i ti o n . O r d i s c i p l i n e t h is p e r s o n fo r t h is . S o t h e r o le
o f th e b o a r d is a n o v e r s i g h t i n t h e c o m p a n y. T h e r o l e o f th e e x e c u ti v e
is t h a t o f a n o p e r a t io n a l w h e r e e x e c u t iv e w i ll u n d e r s ta n d a n d k n o w t h a t
t h e r e i s a v a c a n c y o r t h e r e is a v a c a n c y t h a t n e e d s to b e c r e a t e d a n d i t
w i ll b e in i ti a te d th r o u g h t h e r e s p e c ti v e e x e c u tiv e . I t w a s u n u s u a l t h a t
y o u w i ll g e t a n o n - e x e c u ti v e d ir e c t o r g iv i n g i n s tr u c t io n s t h a t y o u h a v e
t o a p p o in t a n in d i v i d u a l b e c a u s e t h e i n d iv id u a l w i ll b e i n th e s tr u c t u r e
w i ll h a v e t o r e p o r t i n to a n e x e c u ti v e o r i n t o a d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h r o u g h
a n e x e c u ti v e .

20

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: And Ms Mpshe if I may ask on – under what
c ir c u m s ta n c e s w i ll y o u e x p e c t t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f t h e n o n - e x e c u t iv e
b o a r d m e m b e r s i n th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f c e r ta i n e m p lo y e e s ?

I s i t in

r e s p e c t o f a l l e m p l o y e e s o r a p a r t ic u l a r c l a s s o f e m p l o y e e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e n o n - e x e c u ti v e d ir e c t o r s w i t h

t h e C h a ir w i ll b e r e s p o n s i b le fo r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e C E O w i th

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
c o n s u l t a ti o n w i th t h e s h a r e h o ld e r m i n i s te r a n d a ls o th e C F O . Th e r e s t
w i ll b e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e C E O f o r t h e fir s t li n e e x e c u t iv e s a n d
t h e n c a s c a d i n g t o th e c o m p a n y l ik e t h a t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : In t h i s i n s t a n c e o f t h e – y o u r i n s tr u c ti o n to
a p p o i n t C a p t a i n M p h o M a m a s h e l a in t h e p o s i ti o n o f C h ie f O p e r a ti o n s
O ff ic e r th is w a s n o t – th is p o s i t io n d i d n o t f a ll w i th i n th e c l a s s w h e r e a n
in t e r fe r e n c e fr o m t h e n o n - e x e c u t iv e b o a r d m e m b e r s w ill b e e x p e c t e d , i s
10

that correct?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h is p o s i ti o n
of

Chief

Operations

O ff ic e r

was

not

even

in

the

s tr u c t u r e

–

o r g a n i s a t io n a l s tr u c t u r e o f S A A a t t h a t ti m e a n d t h e o t h e r i m p o r t a n t
a s p e c t o f i t is t h a t w h e n w e e m b a r k o n r e tr e n c h m e n t s t h r o u g h t h e
L a b o u r R e l a ti o n s A c t 1 8 9 1 6 6 A is t h a t y o u h a v e to d e f in e t h e n e w
o r g a n i s a t io n , t h e n e w r o l e s a n d i n c o n s u lt a ti o n w i t h l a b o u r l o o k a t t h e
s tr u c t u r e s a n d t h e n o n c e t h e c o n s u l t a ti o n s h a v e b e e n d o n e a n d t h e
s tr u c t u r e s a r e a p p r o v e d th a t w il l b e th e s t r u c t u r e o f th e c o m p a n y g o i n g
forward.
20

S o w e h a d j u s t e m b a r k e d o n t h is p r o c e s s o f r e tr e n c h m e n ts .

T h e s tr u c t u r e s h a d b e e n a p p r o v e d a n d a p p r o v e d b y a s u b - c o m m i t t e e o f
t h e b o a r d a n d a p p r o v e d b y t h e b o a r d s u b s e q u e n t ly. S o t h i s w a s q u it e a
s u r p r is e to s a y t h e p o s i ti o n o f C h i e f O p e r a ti o n s O ff ic e r m u s t th e n b e
in c l u d e d a n d a n i n d iv i d u a l m u s t b e a p p o i n t e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s s o …
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry Ms Buthelzi and Ms Mpshe I am going to

Page 12 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t a k e y o u b a c k a l it t le b i t to f i n a li s e o n t h e g e n e r a l s t a t e m e n t s y o u m a d e
a n d t h e n w e w i ll r e s u m e o n t h i s s p e c i f ic o n e . T h e i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t y o u
t o l d m e a b o u t th a t t h e c h a ir p e r s o n M s M y e n i w o u l d i s s u e a n i n s tr u c t io n
t h a t c e r t a i n p e r s o n s b e a p p o i n t e d o r c e r t a i n p e r s o n s b e d is c i p l in e d .
N o w – a n d y o u t a lk e d a b o u t th e r e b e i n g a r e c r u i t m e n t p r o c e s s t h a t i s
r e q u ir e d to b e fo ll o w e d y o u k n o w i n t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f p e r s o n s t o
p o s i ti o n s .

D i d y o u ta k e t h e s e i n s tr u c ti o n s t o m e a n t h a t y o u m u s t n o t

f o ll o w a n y p r o c e d u r e s t h a t a r e a p p l ic a b l e i n t h e c o m p a n y o r i f I w il l p u t
it d i ff e r e n t ly w h a t i f s h e w e r e t o c o m e h e r e a n d s a y I d i d n o t m e a n t h a t
10

y o u s h o u l d a p p o in t th o s e p e o p l e i n b r e a c h o f p o l ic ie s a n d p r o c e d u r e s
o f t h e c o m p a n y. Yo u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o f o ll o w t h o s e p r o c e d u r e s a n d i f
y o u d id n o t f o l l o w t h e m t h a t w a s y o u r o w n d e c is i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir o n t h i s p a r ti c u la r o n e i t is m y
e v i d e n c e th a t I e v e n r a is e d th is m a t t e r a t a b o a r d s u b - c o m m i t t e e c a l le d
R A M C O , R e m u n e r a t io n s C o m m i t t e e w h e r e I h a v e i n d ic a te d a t th e
R A M C O a n d a t th e ti m e i n t h e R A M C O c o m m i t t e e C h a ir w a s a ls o a
m e m b e r o f t h e R A M C O a n d D o c t o r Ta m b i w a s t h e c h a ir – w a s t h e
R A M C O m e m b e r, D o c t o r Ta m b i w a s t h e C h a ir o f R A M C O a n d M r To n y
D i x o n w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e R A M C O . I t is r e c o r d e d a t I th i n k i t w a s t w o

20

R A M C O m e e t in g s w h e r e I h i g h l ig h t e d t h a t . I t is ir r e g u la r f o r u s t o w a n t
t o a p p o i n t p e o p l e o u t s i d e o f t h e p r o c e s s a n d a ls o p e o p l e w h o a r e n o t i n
t h e p o s it i o n s th a t a r e n o t in t h e s tr u c t u r e i s t h e a p p r o v e d s tr u c t u r e . M y
o th e r c o n c e r n a t t h a t ti m e w a s w e a r e g o i n g t o b e – w e a r e a l r e a d y i n
t h e p r o c e s s o f r e t r e n c h m e n ts w h e r e t h e e m p lo y e e s i n th e c o m p a n y w i ll
b e r e tr e n c h e d a n d I m a d e i t a p o in t t h a t i t w i ll b e ir r e s p o n s i b le a l s o t o

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
a d d a p o s it i o n t h a t i s n o t a p p r o v e d a t a h i g h e r l e v e l i n th e o r g a n is a ti o n
a n d I h a d f e l t th a t – a n d I i n d ic a te d a n d I p u t i t o n r e c o r d t h a t i t w il l b e
v e r y ir r e s p o n s i b le f o r u s to a g r e e to d o t h a t . A n d C h a ir l a t e r o n th e – it
w i ll a l s o b e e v id e n t t h a t I – w h e n i t a c t u a ll y b e c a m e c l o s e I th e n s a i d t o
t h e C h a ir th e n y o u t h e n g iv e a n i n s tr u c t io n i n w r i ti n g , y o u th e n c h a n g e
t h e s tr u c t u r e s a n d t h e n y o u c a n t h e n – w e w i ll b e a b le to d o i t b u t
f a il i n g t o d o th a t w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is y o u r a n s w e r th a t – o r w h a t is y o u r a n s w e r a s t o
w h e t h e r t h e s e i n s tr u c t io n s th a t y o u t a lk a b o u t a t a g e n e r a l le v e l w e r e
10

in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t r e q u ir e d t h e m a n a g e m e n t to d o s o m e t h in g i n b r e a c h o f
t h e l a w, i n b r e a c h o f th e p o l ic ie s , in b r e a c h o f p r o c e d u r e s o f S A A ?
W h a t d o y o u s a y ? D o y o u s a y t h e y w e r e in s t r u c t i o n s t o d o th i n g s t h a t
w e r e a g a in s t t h e p o l ic ie s , a g a i n s t t h e p r o c e d u r e s a n d a g a in s t t h e l a w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y t h a t t h e r e a r e s p e c i fi c i n s t a n c e s w h e r e
y o u r a is e d t h o s e is s u e s t h a t t h e r e n e e d e d to b e p r o c e s s e s t h a t w o u l d
b e f o l lo w e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s M p s h e y o u h a v e
a lr e a d y t o l d u s t h a t y o u r a i s e d a n is s u e w i t h t h is i n s tr u c t io n a t t o
R A M C O m e e ti n g s w h e r e C h a i r w a s a l s o p a r t o f th e R A M C O .

What I

w a n t to k n o w fr o m y o u , d i d y o u c a r r y o u t t h is i n s tr u c ti o n , h o w – w h a t –
h o w d i d y o u d e a l w i th t h i s p a r ti c u l a r i n s tr u c t io n g o in g f o r w a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir t h is i n s tr u c t io n I d id n o t c a r r y

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
it o u t a n d C a p t a i n M a m s h e la w a s n o t a p p o i n te d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Th a n k y o u . A n d o n p a g e 6 y o u d e a l w i t h

a n o t h e r i n s tr u c ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll l e t u s t a lk a b o u t C a p ta in M a m a s h e l a . W h a t w a s
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s r e s p o n s e o r r e a c t io n t o t h e n o n - a p p o in t m e n t o f
C a p t a i n M a m a s h e l a o r y o u r f a i lu r e t o c a r r y o u t h e r i n s tr u c ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir o b v io u s ly i t w a s a t u s s le a t

t h a t t i m e a n d I w a s a lr e a d y p e r c e iv e d a s s o m e b o d y w h o d o e s n o t t a k e
in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m th e b o a r d a n d w h o i s o b s tr u c t iv e . B u t f u r t h e r t o t h a t
10

h e a ls o – s h e a l s o i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t M r N ic o B e z u i d e n h o u t w h o w a s
t h e A c ti n g C E O a t t h a t ti m e m e t w i t h C a p t a i n M a m a s h e la i n M a u r i ti u s a t
s o m e a ir l i n e c o n f e r e n c e a n d N i c o r e c o m m e n d e d t o t h e C h a ir t h a t
C a p t a i n M a m a s h e l a i s t h e a p p r o p r ia t e i n d iv i d u a l t o h o ld t h e p o s i t io n .
W h e n t h i s m a t te r w a s b e i n g r a is e d w i t h t h e C h a ir n o w i n s i s ti n g I t h e n
went to Mr Nico Bezuidenhout and I asked him.

M r B e z u id e n h o u t

la u g h e d i t o ff a n d s a id , w e m e t o v e r b e e r a ft e r h o u r s a t t h e c o n fe r e n c e ,
it w a s j u s t a ta lk a n d th e r e w a s n o c o m m i t m e n t w h a ts o e v e r a n d i n a n y
c a s e h e s a y s , I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t t h e p r o c e d u r e s h o u l d – w i ll b e i f w e
have to do that.
20

S o h e t h e n r e f u t e d th e c la i m b y t h e C h a ir t h a t M r

B e z u id e n h o u t – M r B e z u i d e n h o u t r e f u te d t h e c l a i m t h a t t h e C h a ir s a i d
in d e e d h e s a id M r M a m a s h e l a m u s t b e a p p o i n te d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – a n d t h e n a s fa r a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n is

c o n c e r n e d d id y o u g o b a c k t o h e r a n d s a y, n o I a m n o t a b le t o c a r r y
t h is o u t a n d Mr B e z u id e n h o u t d o e s n o t a g r e e a ls o th a t h e s a i d Mr o r
C a p t a i n M a m a s h e l a s h o u ld b e a p p o in t e d ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . I n t h e R A M C O m e e t i n g I t h e n
h i g h l ig h te d t o s a y t h a t t h i s i s ir r e g u l a r a n d i t c a n o n ly b e d o n e i f th e
C h a ir o f t h e b o a r d c h a n g e s th e s tr u c t u r e s a n d – a n d t h e n g i v e a n
in s t r u c t i o n a f t e r c h a n g i n g th e s tr u c tu r e s b e c a u s e m y c o n c e r n w a s t h a t
t h is p o s i t io n w a s n o t e v e n i n th e o r g a n i s a t i o n a l s tr u c tu r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o i t w a s a n o n - e x is t e n t p o s i t io n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A n d R A M C O is a – i s w h a t c o m m i t t e e , d o
you want to just explain?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t is r e m u n e r a t i o n c o m m i t t e e o f

sub-committee of the board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a n d th e C h a ir p e r s o n s e r v e d o n t h a t c o m m i t t e e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S h e d i d s e r v e i n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: And she was present on the day when you made your
p o s i ti o n c le a r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s s h e w a s p r e s e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d w h a t w a s h e r r e a c t io n t o w h a t y o u s a id t o y o u

s u g g e s t io n th a t t h e o n ly in w h ic h t h i s c o u l d h a p p e n is i f s h e c h a n g e d
t h is – i f th e b o a r d c h a n g e t h e s tr u c tu r e a n d s o o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir s h e w a s u n h a p p y a b o u t th a t
s h e h a d t o g iv e a n i n s tr u c t io n t o c h a n g e t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a l s t r u c t u r e
a n d t h e n c h a n g i n g t h e o r g a n is a t i o n a l s tr u c t u r e m e a n t a ls o t h a t w e h a d
t o g o b a c k t o la b o u r i n li n e w i th t h e c o n s u l t a ti o n p r o c e s s o f t h is

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
r e tr e n c h m e n t p r o c e s s . S h e w a s q u i te u n h a p p y a n d i t e n d e d th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s M p s h e o n p a g e 6 o f
y o u r a ffi d a v it y o u d e a l w i t h a n o t h e r i n s t r u c t io n t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d t o
a p p o i n t C a p t a in Er ic M a n e n ts a i n t o y o u r p o s i ti o n o f H e a d s o f L i g h t
O p e r a t io n . Fr o m w h o m d id y o u r e c e iv e th i s in s t r u c t i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h is in s t r u c t i o n w a s r a is e d b y M s

Ya k h e K w i n a n a a t a R A M C O m e e t in g . M s K w i n a n a w a s a l s o a m e m b e r
o f t h e R A M C O b o a r d s u b - c o m m i t t e e . A n d i n th a t b o a r d s u b - c o m m i t t e e
10

M s K w i n a n a r a is e d t h e fa c t t h a t s h e w a s o n a f li g h t i n h e r p e r s o n a l
c a p a c i ty t o E a s t L o n d o n a n d th e n s h e w a s s i t t in g n e x t t o C a p ta i n
M a m a s h e la – C a p ta in E r i c M a m e n t s a w h o w a s n o t o n d u ty h e w a s a ls o
o n a p e r s o n a l fl i g h t to E a s t L o n d o n . A n d s h e t h e n s t a te s t h a t …
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y, s o r r y M s M p s h e i f I m a y d is – I m a y
d is t u r b y o u t h e r e . D i d y o u s a y w a s it r a i s e d o n a R A M C O m e e t i n g o r
b e c a u s e i n y o u r a ffi d a v it it s a y s i t w a s a n A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e
m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o i t w a s r a i s e d I s a i d i t b y – b y a
b o a r d m e m b e r a C h a ir o f A u d it a n d R i s k c o m m i t t e e .

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h o k a y. Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

B u t s h e a ls o a R A M C O – b e c a u s e

b y th a t ti m e t h e r e w e r e o n ly 3 n o w.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o a ll o f t h e m s e r v e d a t R A M C O ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Okay thank you.

Page 17 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P r o c e e d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n c e a g a i n M s B u th e le z i I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r y o u
m i g h t w is h t o r a is e y o u r v o ic e a li t t le b i t f o r e v e r y b o d y t o h e a r y o u a t
the back.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I w i ll – I w il l b r in g th e m ic r o p h o n e f o r w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y c o n ti n u e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . Ye s . A n d m a y b e i f y o u c o u ld te ll u s
w h a t – w h a t d i d A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e d o ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A u d i t a n d R is k a n d C o m p li a n c e

C o m m i t t e e is t h e b o a r d ’s s u b - c o m m i t te e t h a t h a s o v e r s i g h t o f a u d i t a n d
r is k , c o m p li a n c e a n d g o v e r n a n c e i n th e c o m p a n y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It is I t h i n k i n m y v ie w o n e o f t h e

m o s t i m p o r ta n t b o a r d s u b - c o m m i t t e e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t e n s u r e s t h a t th e r e is

c o m p li a n c e m a n a g i n g o f t h e r is k a n d g u i d in g i n te r ms o f m i ti g a t i o n o f
t h e r is k a n d in t h e c o m p a n y a n d a ls o o v e r s ig h t o n a u d i t .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h i s a p p o in t m e n t o f E r i c M a n e n ts a
is – a s a – i n a p o s i t io n o f – H e a d o f Fl ig h t O p e r a t i o n i s r a is e d b y Ms
K w in a n a a t t h is m e e ti n g a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s M s K w i n a n a r a is e d t h is p o i n t

a n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I h a v e a d d e d t h e r e is th a t s h e is a m e m b e r o f
R A M C O b u t o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t s h e is a b o a r d m e m b e r a n d s h e w a s
C h a ir o f t h e A u d i t R is k a n d C o m p li a n c e C o m m i t t e e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S h e r a is e d t h e is s u e t h a t C a p t a i n

E r ic M a n a n ts a s a y s t h a t h is r o l e is c e r e m o n i a l a n d t h e n h e w a n ts t h e
r o l e to b e c h a n g e d to b e c o m e C h ie f C a p t a i n a n d H e a d o f Fl ig h t O p s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y w h a t r o l e w a s h e h o ld in g a t t h e t i m e ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

H e w a s h o ld in g th e r o l e o f C h i e f

P il o t a t t h e ti m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t is t h e fu n c t io n o f a C h ie f P i lo t – ju s t t h e m a i n

one?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e m a i n – m a i n r o le o f t h e C h i e f

P il o t is h e is o v e r a l l r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a l l t h e p il o ts i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n
a n d th e r u n n in g o f – o f t h e o p e r a t io n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d h e w il l b e l o o k i n g – y o u k n o w 20

m a k i n g s u r e th a t e v e r y b o d y ’s ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: He - he must …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Is c o m p l ia n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t e r m s o f a l l t h e B o d i e s th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : R e g u l a t o r y B o d i e s t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

SAA forms part of.

So it was

a c t u a ll y a v e r y b i g j o b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . In e ff e c t is i t a j o b t h a t r e q u ir e s h i m – r e q u ir e d
h i m t o b a s ic a lly – b a s ic a l ly m a n a g e p il o ts ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t w o u l d b e h is jo b t o k n o w i f a c e r t a in p i lo t w a s
n o t c o m i n g to w o r k o r s o m e th in g . S o t h a t a r r a n g e m e n ts c o u l d b e m a d e
10

f o r a r e p l a c e m e n t. T h in g s lik e th a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o t o n ly t h a t .

To m a k e s u r e t h a t

a l l p il o ts a r e r e c u r r e n t i n t h e ir li c e n c in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d c o m p li a n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To a ll t h e R e g u la t o r y B o d i e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d – a n d t h e r o le o f th e – o f t h e H e a d o f
Fl i g h t O p e r a t io n s w h a t d i d i t e n t a i l ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e – t h e H e a d o f t h e F li g h t

O p e r a t io n s w il l m e a n th a t t h e C h ie f P i lo t w i ll a ls o r e p o r t in t o t h e H e a d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o f F li g h t O p e r a t i o n s .

S o th e H e a d o f F li g h t O p e r a t io n s w a s o v e r a ll

r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a l l t h e f li g h t o p e r a ti o n s . T h e r e a r e a l l o t h e r o p e r a t io n a l
is s u e s r e l a te d to fl i g h t o p e r a ti o n s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. W a s – w a s t h e r e n o p e r s o n w h o w a s
h o l d i n g t h i s r o le a t th e ti m e w h e n h e w a n t e d t o – t o ta k e t h i s r o le ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e w a s a p e r s o n a lr e a d y in – i n
t h e r o l e w h o w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d w a s a p p o i n te d th r o u g h d u e p r o c e s s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d th e n w h a t t h e n – w h a t d id y o u d o

t o t h i s – t o t h i s i n s tr u c ti o n ? H o w d i d y o u h a n d le t h is o n e ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O n t h is i n s tr u c ti o n I r a is e d m y

c o n c e r n s o n r e c o r d a t t h e R A M C O M e e ti n g to s a y th a t I fi n d i t h ig h l y
ir r e g u l a r t h a t a M e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d w i ll r a i s e a n is s u e w h ic h w a s a
s id e is s u e in a – i n a f li g h t i n t h a t m a n n e r a t t h e R A M C O a n d I f e lt t h a t
t h e r e a r e p r o c e s s e s i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n w h e r e i f a n e m p l o y e e i s
u n h a p p y t h a t th e y w i ll r e p o r t to t h e L i n e M a n a g e r a n d r a i s e is s u e s w i th
t h e L i n e M a n a g e r.
I n t h is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e t h e C h i e f P il o t a ls o n o l o n g e r r e p o r te d
in t o t h e H e a d o f F l ig h t O p e r a t i o n s .

They had a General Manager of

O p e r a t io n s . S o i f t h e r e w a s a p r o b le m w i t h th e w a y h e v i e w e d h i s r o l e
20

it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n r e p o r t e d e i t h e r to t h e H e a d o f Fl i g h t O p e r a ti o n s o r
t o t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r o f O p e r a ti o n s .
S o I fe l t th a t i t w a s h i g h l y i r r e g u l a r a n d I s a i d i t w i ll c r e a te a
– a v e r y w r o n g p r e c e d e n t th a t e m p lo y e e s c a n k n o w t h a t I c a n m e e t w i t h
a B o a r d M e m b e r o n t h e – o n t h e s i d e s o m e w h e r e o n a s o c ia l a n d t h e n
m y m a t te r s w i ll b e r a is e d i n th e f o r m a l f o r u m li k e a B o a r d S u b -

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Committee.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d i n …
CHAIRPERSON: So your …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r – y o u r c o n c e r n w a s th a t t h is w a s a d is r e g a r d o f
n o r m a l p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s th a t e m p lo y e e s w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
f o ll o w i f th e y h a d a n y c o n c e r n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d – a n d th e – a n d p a r t o f t h e c o n c e r n w a s t h a t
10

a M e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d w a s in v o lv e d i n t h i s d i s r e g a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n p e r p e t u a t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In p e r p e t u a t in g th is ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t w a s h e r r e s p o n s e w h e n y o u r a i s e d th e s e

o b j e c ti o n s t o s a y b u t w e c a n n o t h a v e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e w e e n c o u r a g e
e m p l o y e e s to d i s r e g a r d c o m p a n y p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s s i m p l y s a i d t h a t li s te n t h is is
w h a t i t i s . W e r a is in g i t h e r e a n d w e a r e r a i s i n g i t a n d w e w a n t a c ti o n
out of it.
20

CHAIRPERSON: That was her speaking?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s a n d t h e – th e C h a ir w h i c h is

M s D u d u M y e n i w h o w a s n o t t h e C h a ir o f R A M C O f u r t h e r o n a n d s a i d
t h a t i t is a – s h e f in d s i t v e r y s tr a n g e t h a t w h e n i t c o m e s to a p p o i n ti n g
a B l a c k p e r s o n g a v e r a c i a l c o n n o ta t io n s t o i t t o s a y th a t p r i o r t o t h a t
t h e r e w a s a W h i le m a l e i n t h a t p o s i ti o n – a c o m b i n e d p o s it i o n – a n d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
n o w t h a t i t is a B l a c k p e r s o n w h o is i n t h a t – t h e r o l e h a s b e e n s p li t
b e c a u s e th e r e is a B l a c k p e r s o n w h o is n o w in t h e r o l e .

So it just

d e g e n e r a t e d in t o r a c i a l c o n n o t a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But I mean you – as I understand your point was

t h e r e a r e p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s th a t e m p lo y e e s m u s t f o l l o w a n d a l l
o f u s m u s t s tic k t o th a t p o s i ti o n .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e t h e y n o t r e s p o n d i n g t o th a t t o s a y – d o t h e y s a y
it is t h e r ig h t t h i n g fo r e m p l o y e e s t o d is r e g a r d n o r m a l p r o c e s s e s a n d
10

procedures?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a i r i t – i t w a s m y e x p e r i e n c e t h a t
o n c e a B o a r d M e m b e r h a s s a i d s o m e th in g a s a n e x e c u ti v e y o u h a v e t o
c o m p ly. H e n c e l a t e r o n i n m y e v id e n c e i t s a y s t h a t I w a s n o t c a r r y in g
o u t B o a r d i n s tr u c ti o n s b u t o f c o u r s e t h e B o a r d i n s tr u c t io n s t h a t I w i ll
c a r r y a n d w il l b e – h a v e to b e l e g a l , h a v e to b e l a w f u l, h a v e t o b e
w i t h i n th e p o li c i e s a n d th e p r o c e d u r e s i n t h e c o m p a n y.
So – and my role as – as General Manager Human Resources
a t t h e ti m e w a s t o g u id e t h e B o a r d i n t e r m s o f w h a t a r e t h e p r o c e s s e s
t h a t w e n e e d t o t a k e a s a c o m p a n y to m a k e s u r e th a t t h e r e is – th e r e is

20

a n – a n d th e o u tc o m e is – is l e g i t i m a te , i s le g a l a n d i s c o m p l ia n t .
CHAIRPERSON: No thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
outcome

of

th is

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

p a r tic u la r

i n s tr u c ti o n ?

M s M p s h e w h a t w a s th e
Was

C a p t a in M a n e n ts a

a p p o i n t e d in t h is – i n th is p o s i ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s C h a ir b u t b e f o r e I c a n g e t t o

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t h a t – i f y o u a l lo w m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I

just

want

to

give

you

the

background.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a ls o b e f o r e I a ls o w a n t e d t o e s t a b li s h h o w t h e

m e e ti n g e n d e d w h e r e th is i s s u e w a s r a is e d .
10

D id i t e n d o n t h e b a s is

t h a t w e h a v e g iv e n a n in s tr u c ti o n , w e e x p e c t y o u t o c o m p ly a n d t h a t is
h o w t h e to p ic w a s – t h e d is c u s s i o n o n t h e t o p ic w a s e n d e d o r w a s t h e r e
a further argument about it?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s C h a ir t h e r e w a s w h ic h I w il l g e t
t o n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

H i s to r ic a ll y t h e r o l e o f – p r i o r to

C a p t a i n M a n e n ts a h o l d i n g th e r o le o f C h i e f P i lo t t h e r e w a s a t i m e i n th e
20

li fe o f S A A w h e r e th e C h i e f P il o t w a s s e c o n d e d t o C iv il Av ia t io n
A u t h o r i ty a n d w e t h e n r e q u ir e d a n o t h e r i n d iv id u a l w h o w a s s e n i o r t o
b e c o m e t h e H e a d – s o r r y – i t w a s t h e H e a d o f Fl ig h t O p e r a ti o n s w a s
s e c o n d e d to C i v i l Av ia t io n A u th o r it y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e h a d o r i g i n a ll y …

Page 24 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: That …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I a m c o m in g to w h y i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t e n d e d u p b e in g s p l i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W h e r e a s th e – t h e i n f e r e n c e w a s

t h a t i t w a s a W h i te m a l e w h o h a d i t c o m b in e d . N o w y o u h a v e a B la c k
person now you split it.

C a p t a i n C o li n J o r d a a n w a s s e c o n d e d t o C iv il

Av i a ti o n A u t h o r i ty fr o m S A A a n d h e w a s t h e H e a d o f F l ig h t O p e r a t i o n s
10

a t t h e t i m e a n d th e n C a p ta in J o h n n y W o o d s w a s th e C h ie f P il o t .
W h e n C a p ta i n C o l i n J o r d a a n w a s s e c o n d e d to C iv il Av i a t i o n
A u t h o r i ty t h e c o m p a n y S A A g a v e a n

undertaking that once the

s e c o n d m e n t e n d s h e w i ll r e v e r t b a c k to h is r o le a n d o n h is l e v e l o f
s e n i o r it y.

H e w o u l d n o t l o s e a n y b e n e fi t s a n d h is s e n io r i ty a n d a s a

result

that

of

and

a

situation

of

c o n v e n ie n c e

was

done

that

C a p t a i n J o h n n y W o o d s w a s m u c h s e n i o r a t t h e t i m e w h o w a s C h ie f P i lo t
t o h a v e th e r o l e a s H e a d o f F li g h t O p e r a ti o n s a s w e l l a n d th a t w a s t h e
fir s t t i m e th a t th e r o l e s w e r e – w e r e c o m b i n e d b u t t h e c o n t e s t w a s it
w a s a c a r e t a k i n g r o l e b e c a u s e o f th a t s it u a ti o n .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A c t u a l ly th e – th e p o s i t io n s w e r e n o t c o m b i n e d b u t

they were held by one person?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . T h e r e w a s a c a r e t a k i n g …
CHAIRPERSON:

They remained separate but there was one person

holding them?

Page 25 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: At the same time?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And so when – in the end when

C a p t a i n J o h n n y W o o d s r e tir e d th e d e c is i o n w a s m a d e t h a t w e n e e d t o
r e v e r t b a c k t o s e p a r a ti n g t h e r o l e s b e c a u s e th a t s it u a ti o n d id n o t – w a s
10

– d i d n o t a p p ly a n y m o r e .

H e n c e th e p o s it io n w a s s e p a r a t e d a n d t h e

p o s i ti o n o f C h ie f P il o t w a s a d v e r t is e d a n d t h e p o s i ti o n o f H e a d o f F li g h t
O p e r a t io n s w a s a d v e r t is e d .
C a p t a i n M a n e n ts a a p p l ie d fo r t h e C h i e f P il o t t h r o u g h d u e
p r o c e s s . H e – h e w a s m a d e t h e C h i e f P i lo t a n d C a p ta in S a n d y B a y n e
a p p li e d f o r t h e H e a d o f F li g h t O p e r a ti o n s a n d t h r o u g h d u e p r o c e s s h e
w a s m a d e t h e H e a d o f F li g h t O p e r a ti o n s . S o t h a t i s w h e r e th e s i t u a t io n
w a s . A t t h e e n d o f th a t m e e t in g – s o I t h e n – th e s e c o n d m e e t i n g i t
w a s - t h e i n s tr u c t io n w a s g iv e n t h a t w e m u s t a p p o i n t h i m .
S o t h e s e c o n d m e e t i n g I d i d a p a p e r – t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g o f
20

R A M C O – I d i d a p a p e r a n d t h a t p a p e r a l s o d id a r e s e a r c h o n
c o m p a r is o n o n s o m e a ir li n e s a r o u n d t h e w o r l d a n d h o w t h e y a r e
s tr u c t u r e d – h a v e t h e ir s t r u c t u r e a s f a r a s t h a t fl ig h t o p e r a ti o n s w a s .
S o I p r e s e n t e d t h a t t o t h e n e x t R A M C O m e e ti n g a n d - a n d i n d ic a te d a n d
g a v e t h e b a c k g r o u n d a s w e ll o n p a p e r a n d it is i n th e e v i d e n c e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A t t h e e n d o f th a t m e e ti n g a n

in s t r u c t i o n w a s is s u e d b y t h e C h a ir. S h e s a y s I d o n o t c a r e w h e th e r i t
is b e s t p r a c ti c e o r C i v i l Av i a ti o n A u th o r i t y c o m p l i a n c e I d o n o t c a r e .
Yo u w il l a p p o in t C a p t a i n M a n e n ts a a s C h ie f Pi l o t a n d H e a d o f F li g h t
O p e r a t io n s a n d o n r e c e iv i n g t h a t i n s tr u c ti o n b e c a u s e t h a t p o s i ti o n a ls o
it i s – it i s p a r t o f t h e r e g u l a ti o n I h a d t o w r it e t o t h e C i v i l Av i a ti o n
A u t h o r i ty …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

It is jut im portant that one understands

t h e s e t h in g s c o r r e c tl y. A m I c o r r e c t t o u n d e r s ta n d t h i s i n s tr u c t io n n o w
10

t o b e – I a m n o t i n t e r e s te d i n a n y p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s . D o n o t
t e ll m e a b o u t t h o s e . T h e i n s tr u c ti o n is y o u m u s t a p p o i n t t h is p e r s o n t o
t h is p o s i t io n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th a t i n s tr u c t io n w a s fr o m ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s a r e s o l u t i o n o f R A M C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a r e s o lu t io n o f R A M C O ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s c h a ir e d b y M s K w i n a n a ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h i c h w a s c h a ir e d b y D r Ta m b i .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D r Ta m b o ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ta m b i .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ta m b i – I a m s o r r y ; b u t t h e – M s D u d u M y e n i a n d

M s K w i n a n a s e r v e d o n th e – o n th a t – o n t h a t c o m m i t t e e o r n o t r e a l ly ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Th e y s e r v e d o n th e
committee.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y a n d th e y w e r e p r e s e n t – th e y w e r e p a r t o f

t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g y o u t a l k a b o u t a s w e ll ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H m …
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : U p o n t h a t in s t r u c t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

I had to write to Department of

Tr a n s p o r t a s p a r t o f o u r r e g u l a t i o n a n d I h a d t o w r i te t o t h e C iv i l
Av i a ti o n A u t h o r i ty t o i n fo r m t h e m t h a t th e r e is a n in s tr u c ti o n fr o m t h e
B o a r d th a t w e c o m b i n e b o t h r o l e s a n d t h e n I e v e n h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h a
– a g e n tl e m a n I t h i n k h e w a s a C o m m i s s i o n e r a t t h e C i v i l Av i a ti o n
A u t h o r i ty fo ll o w i n g w i t h m y – m y le t t e r t o t h e m h a d a m e e t in g w h e r e h e
w a n t e d t o u n d e r s t a n d m o r e a s t o w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e t h a t w i ll
a ls o m e a n t h a t t h e fli g h t o p e r a ti o n s m a n u a l h a d t o b e a m e n d e d t o
a c c o m m o d a t e th a t c h a n g e a n d th e y w il l h a v e to g iv e t h e a u t h o r i ty a s
t h e r e g u l a t o r y b o d y a n d s o I d i d th a t .
W e w r o t e t o t h e m a n d th e n r e v e r t b a c k t o – t o t h e c o m p a n y

20

o n c e I h a d w r i tt e n t o t h e m a n d th e y s a i d t h e y w il l – t h e y w il l c o m e b a c k
t o u s o n t h a t. S o i t w a s fo r m a l a p p lic a ti o n to t h e m t o in f o r m t h e m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Back at the company we had now

u p o n t h is i n s tr u c ti o n b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e – t h e r e w e r e t w o i n c u m b e n ts .
T h e r e w a s E r ic M a n e n t s a w h o is C h i e f P il o t a n d th e r e w a s S a n d y B a y n e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
w h o w a s H e a d o f Fl ig h t O p e r a t i o n s . W e h a d t h e n – h a d t o - e v e n th a t
w a s a ls o r a i s e d . T h e l a b o u r r e l a ti o n s a s p e c t t o i t t h a t i t w a s g o i n g t o
b e a n u n fa ir l a b o u r p r a c ti c e o n t h e p e r s o n w h o is h o l d i n g t h e r o le o f
H e a d o f F li g h t O p e r a t i o n s w h o h a s g o t t h e r o l e l e g i ti m a t e l y i n t e r m s o f
the due process.
W e t h e n h a d t o e m b a r k o n a n e m p lo y e e r e l a ti o n s p r o c e s s
w h e r e w e h a d to c o n s u l t w it h t h e H e a d o f Fl i g h t O p e r a ti o n s t h a t t h e
B o a r d h a s i s s u e d a n i n s tr u c t io n . H e h a s t o s t e p d o w n fr o m h i s r o l e a n d
t h e n h is r o l e n e e d s to b e g iv e n to n o w E r ic M a n e n ts a a s a c o m b in e d
10

role.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th e – th is in s t r u c t i o n c a m e a t a ti m e w h e r e b o th

p o s i ti o n s w e r e o c c u p ie d b y p e o p l e w h o h a d o b t a i n e d t h e m a f t e r d u e
process?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is j u s t th a t th e o n e p o s i ti o n t h a t o f C h i e f Pi l o t w a s
o c c u p i e d b y s o m e b o d y w h o w a n te d t h e o th e r p o s i ti o n …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s w e ll ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – a n d y o u r i n s tr u c t io n w a s c o m b in e t h e t w o

p o s i ti o n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t t h e y a r e h e ld b y o n e p e r s o n a n d t h a t p e r s o n
w a s g o i n g t o b e t h e o n e w h o w a s a t t h a t ti m e h o ld i n g t h e p o s i ti o n o f
C h i e f P i lo t ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d t h e p o s it io n o f th e H e a d o f F li g h t

O p e r a t io n s w a s s e n i o r to t h a t o f t h e C h i e f P il o t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

In

the

o r g a n is a ti o n a l

s tr u c t u r e t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

If y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e C h i e f – i s i t C h ie f O p e r a t i o n s

O ff ic e r – w h a t – t h e o t h e r p o s i ti o n ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h i e f P il o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C h ie f P il o t O p e r a ti o n s – t h e o th e r o n e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e a d o f F li g h t O p e r a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e a d o f Fl ig h t O p e r a t io n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d s o m e b o d y w h o g e ts a p p o i n te d to t h a t p o s i t io n
b e t h e k in d o f p e r s o n w h o w o u l d a ls o q u a li fy t o b e a C h i e f P il o t i n
t e r m s o f k n o w le d g e e x p e r i e n c e a n d q u a l if i c a ti o n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e i n c u m b e n t a t th a t ti m e w a s
a v e r y, v e r y s e n i o r C a p t a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o th a t o n e w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t i f t h a t p e r s o n w a s
t o c o m p e t e f o r t h a t s a m e p o s i ti o n h a v in g b e e n th e r e a n d a s s u m i n g
performance had been good one would expect that that person would
d e s e r v e t h e p o s i ti o n m o r e t h a n a C h i e f P il o t.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

S o t h e i n s tr u c ti o n w a s i n e ff e c t fi n d a

w a y t o c o m b i n e t h e s e t w o p o s it i o n s a n d w h a t y o u d o w i t h t h e p e r s o n
w h o w a s a t t h a t ti m e h o l d i n g t h e p o s i t io n o f H e a d o f Fl i g h t O p e r a ti o n s
y o u m u s t s e e a s m a n a g e m e n t h o w y o u d e a l w it h t h a t b u t c o m b i n e th e
two

p o s i ti o n s

and

C a p ta i n M a n e n ts a

should

be

Head

of

Fl ig h t

O p e r a t io n s a n d C h i e f Pi l o t ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Te ll m e t h e n w h a t

h a p p e n e d C a p t a in B a y n e th e o n e w h o w a s h o l d i n g t h i s p o s it i o n n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

We

consulted

w i th

C a p t a i n S a n d y B a y n e a n d m a d e h i m u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n i n s tr u c ti o n h a s
b e e n is s u e d a n d a s r e a l ly a l o y a l e m p lo y e e o f th e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e h e
w i ll h a v e h a d a r i g h t t o t a k e u s t o c o u r t – e i t h e r th e C C M A o r L a b o u r
C o u r t o n a n u n fa ir l a b o u r p r a c ti c e . H e o b l i g e d . H e s a i d I o b l i g e .
I d o n o t d r a m a i n my li f e a n d h e o b li g e d a n d – a n d t h e n w e
20

h a d – t h e n h a d to a p p o i n t C a p ta in M a n e n t s a i n a n a c ti n g c a p a c it y
p e n d i n g a p p r o v a l o f t h e C i v il Av i a ti o n A u t h o r i ty. H e w a s a p p o in t e d a s
A c ti n g C h i e f P il o t a n d h a d – h e w a s C h i e f P i lo t a n d A c ti n g H e a d o f
Fl i g h t O p e r a t io n s p e n d in g th e a p p r o v a l o f t h e C i v i l Av ia t i o n A u th o r i ty.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D o y o u k n o w i f th a t a p p r o v a l w a s o b t a i n e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th e a p p r o v a l w a s n o t o b ta in e d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
s u b s e q u e n t ly. I t w a s n o t o b t a i n e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

What

–

what

happened

th e n

to

C a p t a i n M a n e n ts a ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e – a ft e r a w h il e i n th e p o s i ti o n I
w a s i n f o r m e d th a t C a p t a i n M a n e n ts a w a s n o t c o p y i n g w it h t h e r o l e o f
C h i e f P i l o t a n d H e a d o f F li g h t O p e r a ti o n s a n d a t s o m e s t a g e w e n t t o
t h e a u t h o r i ti e s i n O p e r a t io n s a n d s a i d in t h e fir s t p l a c e h e n e v e r s a i d
h e a c t u a ll y w a n te d b o t h p o s i ti o n s c o m b i n e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
10

So

he

r e v e r te d

back

to

his

o r i g in a l

p o s i ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

H e r e v e r te d b a c k t o h is o r i g i n a l

p o s i ti o n o f C h i e f P i lo t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a u t h o r i ti e s b e i n g ? Yo u s a id h e w e n t b a c k t o t h e
a u t h o r i t ie s …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

The

General

Manager

of

O p e r a t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o t h e n b y h is o w n c h o o s i n g h e w e n t b a c k t o b e in g

C h i e f P i lo t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : E x a c tl y. T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d h o w … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d th a t g o v i a t h e – t h e M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d w h o
h a d w a n t e d h i m t o c o m b in e b o t h – t o h a v e b o t h p o s i ti o n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t t h e ti m e i t d id n o t g o th r o u g h t h e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
B o a r d b e c a u s e a s I s a id t h e r e w e r e – a ll e g e d ly h e w a s n o t c o p y i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t I m e a n is – is th e r e a ti m e w h e n a r e p o r t

b a c k w a s g i v e n t o th e B o a r d M e m b e r s to s a y w e ll w e s o u g h t t o c a r r y
o u t y o u r i n s tr u c t io n s b u t C a p t a in M a n e n ts a h a s c o m p l a i n e d t h a t h e
c a n n o t c o p e a n d h e s a y s h e a c t u a l ly n e v e r w a n t e d b o th p o s i ti o n s a n d
h e h a s g o n e b a c k t o b e in g C h ie f P il o t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O ffi c i a lly w e d i d n o t g o b a c k to th e
Board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y g o t to k n o w t h e in f o r m a ti o n ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f c o u r s e t h e y d id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e r e a c ti o n w a s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s q u i t e – I t h in k – e a t – t h e m
e a t in g h u m b l e p ie b u t o f c o u r s e i t w a s n o t o p e n l y a c k n o w l e d g e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ; b u t t e ll m e a t t h e t i m e th a t t h e tw o B o a r d

M e m b e r s - a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d it – it w a s M s M y e n i a n d M s K w in a n a
who

were

p u s h in g

who

were

g i v in g

the

C a p t a i n M a n e n ts a s h o u l d b e g iv e n b o t h p o s i t io n s .

in s tr u c ti o n

that

D id th e y e v e r s a y

why him and what it is about him that m ade them to say he must be
g iv e n b o th p o s i t io n s a s o p p o s e d to s a y i n g w e th i n k t h e p o s it i o n s h o u l d
20

be occupied by one person but there should be a process to be
f o ll o w e d ?
T h o s e w h o w a n t t o a p p l y s h o u l d a p p ly a n d w h o e v e r is s h o w n
w i ll b e s h o w n . D i d th e y e v e r s a y w h y t h e y w e r e s p e c i fi c t h a t h e s h o u l d
be the one?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a i r t h e p o i n t w a s t h e fa c t t h a t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
n o w h e is a C h ie f P il o t a n d h e is Bl a c k a n d h e i s e n t i tl e d t o b e c o m e t h e
C h i e f P i l o t a n d H e a d o f Fl i g h t O p e r a ti o n s .

I n s h o r t t h a t is w h a t w a s

said.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n t e r m s o f s a la r y I – I t a k e i t th a t t h e t w o

p o s i ti o n s w e r e n o t o n t h e s a m e le v e l in t e r m s o f s a l a r y b e c a u s e t h e y
were also not on the same level?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W o u ld h e t h e n o n c e t h e p o s i ti o n s w e r e – w e r e
c o m b in e d s o t o s p e a k w o u l d h e t h e n b e p a i d th e h i g h e r o f t h e tw o
10

salaries?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

H e – h e r e c e iv e d a M a n a g e r - a

management …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s u r e i t w a s – I a m s u r e it w a s n o t li k e h e w a s

g o i n g t o b e p a id b o t h s a l a r ie s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

He was not

p a i d b o th s a la r i e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d a s A c t in g H e a d o f Fl i g h t

O p e r a t io n s th e r e is a n a ll o w a n c e i n t h e c o m p a n y i n t e r m s o f p e o p l e
20

w h o a r e a c t in g i n r o l e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : U n t il t h e y a r e c o n fir m e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o h e w i ll h a v e b e e n p a i d a n

a l lo w a n c e …

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t e r m s o f a c ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d h e w a s b e in g p a id a s C h i e f

P il o t a n d a s a M a n a g e r b e c a u s e h e w a s a M a n a g e r in te r m s o f b e in g a
C h i e f P i lo t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o h e w a s s t il l f ly i n g a n d h e w a s a
M a n a g e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o t h e n h e w a s p a i d a n a d d i ti o n a l

a l lo w a n c e a s t h e H e a d o f F li g h t O p e r a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A c t i n g in t h a t r o l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ; b u t i t is q u i te i n te r e s ti n g fr o m w h a t y o u s a y. I t
is li k e s o m e t h i n g t h a t C a p t a i n M a n e n ts a m e n t i o n e d ju s t in p a s s in g
s o c ia ll y o n a f li g h t to E a s t L o n d o n w it h M s K w i n a n a e n d e d u p r e a lly
causing – it seems – quite some drama at SAA.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e c o n ti n u e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ms M p s h e o u t o f c u r i o s it y w a s t h i s th e fir s t
in s t a n c e w h e r e y o u h a d s u c h in s t a n c e s w h e r e p e o p l e w i ll d is c u s s s t u ff
o n s o c ia l g a th e r i n g s a n d s u c h s o c i a l e n d u p b e i n g i m p l e m e n t e d b y t h e
Board?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W a n t in g t o b e i m p l e m e n te d ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e o th e r o n e th a t I m e n t io n e d

e a r l ie r o n w a s C a p t a i n M a m a s h e l a o n e .

It was social.

It was

d is c u s s e d a n d C a p t a i n M a m a s h e l a – I t h i n k – d is c u s s e d w it h t h e C h a i r
a n d th e n i t n e e d e d to t h e n b e c o m e a B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank you and you then give another

e x a m p l e o f s u c h i n te r fe r e n c e in th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f Mr K e n d y P h o h le li .
W h a t r o l e d id h e p l a y a t S A A ? W h a t w a s h e – w h a t w a s h is p o s i ti o n a t
SAA at the time?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M r K e n d y P h o h le li w a s I n t e r i m G M

C o m m e r c i a l a n d j u s t a s a s ta n d i n w h il s t w e w e r e b u s y r e c r u i t in g f o r a
– a G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C o m m e r c ia l a n d t h e r e w a s a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t
h e d i d n o t m a k e t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e j o b b u t h e h a d s o m e
Commercial experience.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o h e w a s t h e n a p p o in t e d o n a n

in t e r i m b a s is a n d a t t h e t i m e t h e C E O M r M o n w a b is i K a l a w e .

So he

w a s i n t e r i m a n d th e n w h e n fi n a l ly t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C o m m e r c i a l
was
20

permanent

-

General

Manager

M r K e n d y P h o h l e l i ’s c o n tr a c t e n d e d .

Commercial

was

appointed

However his contract was then

e x t e n d e d to s a y t h a t h e m u s t b e i n v o l v e d i n a p r o j e c t in C o m m e r c i a l o n
t h e e x p a n s i o n i n to A fr ic a - e x p a n s i o n o f S o u th A f r ic a n A i r w a y s i n to –
in t o A f r i c a . H e t h e n w o r k e d i n t h a t r o l e o n a p r o j e c t b a s i s …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d h is f ix e d te r m c o n tr a c t e n d e d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
a n d i t w a s r o l le d – r o l le d o v e r s i x ti m e s . O n t h e s i x t h t i m e w h e n i t w a s
r o l l e d o v e r I h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C o m m e r c i a l .

I

h a d a m e e t in g w i t h t h e – a t t h e t i m e I w a s A c ti n g C E O …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W i t h t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r – A c t i n g
G e n e r a l M a n a g e r H u m a n R e s o u r c e s t o s a y t h a t w e a r e n o w a t a r is k o f
b e i n g p e r c e iv e d i n te r m s o f a L a b o u r R e l a t i o n s A c t t h a t w e h a v e
c r e a te d e x p e c ta t io n o f e m p l o y m e n t .

So if we do not terminate it now

w e h a v e t h a t r is k t h a t w e w i ll b e fo r c e d i n te r m s o f th e L a b o u r
10

R e l a t i o n s Ac t t o e m p lo y h i m o n a p e r m a n e n t b a s is a n d a t t h e t i m e a ls o
h e h a d n o r o le . T h e o r g a n is a ti o n a l s tr u c t u r e h a d b e e n a p p r o v e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

H e d id n o t h a v e a r o l e e v e n i n

C o m m e r c i a l a n d t h e – t h e c o n t r a c t o f t h e A fr i c a S tr a te g y h a d e n d e d a n d
b e c a u s e n o w th e r e w a s p a r t o f t h e s t r a t e g y i n C o m m e r c ia l a n d i t w a s
g o i n g t o b e i n te g r a t e d in t h e r o le s o f th e p e o p le in C o m m e r c i a l .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : In te r ms o f y e a r s h o w l o n g d id h e r e m a i n i n
t h is a c ti n g p o s i ti o n a t S A A ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

I th i n k i t w a s fr o m 2 0 1 4 t o a t t h e

ti m e w a s 2 0 – th a t t i m e w a s S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o i t is a l m o s t t w o y e a r s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A l m o s t tw o y e a r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O r i g i n a l ly h o w lo n g w a s h e s u p p o s e d to b e in t h a t

p o s i ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S ix m o n th s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : S ix m o n t h s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d e a c h ti m e i t w a s e x t e n d e d w a s i t e x te n d e d fo r –
b y s ix m o n th s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : B y s i x m o n th s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t
m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a d w i t h t h e – t h e A c t in g H R M a n a g e r a n d t h e
M a n a g e r C o m m e r c i a l D i v is i o n ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W e a ll a g r e e d a n d a l e t te r w a s

w r i t t e n t o M r P h o h le li a n d i t w a s g iv e n t o h i m t o s a y t h a t t h is i s t h e e n d
o f h is c o n tr a c t a n d it w i ll n e v e r b e r e n e w e d i n a n y c a p a c i ty w it h in S A A .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d h o w e v e r w e – h e w a s a ll o w e d
t h a t h e c a n a p p ly f o r p o s i t io n s w i th S A A – y o u k n o w – t h r o u g h n o r m a l
p r o c e s s e s a n d i f h e is s u c c e s s fu l h e w i ll b e a p p o i n t e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D id h e a p p ly f o r a n y p o s i ti o n a t th e ti m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

There

is

one

p o s i ti o n

that

I

r e m e m b e r t h a t h e a p p li e d f o r a n d h e w a s n o t s u c c e s s f u l .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d h o w d i d t h e C h a i r i n te r f e r e w i t h h is
e m p l o y m e n t a f t e r h i s – h is c o n tr a c t w a s t e r mi n a t e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A f t e r h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l s h e h a s n o t s a i d th a t th e C h a i r i n t e r f e r e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M a y b e I s h o u ld – I s h o u l d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e y o u w a n t to a s k h e r m o r e n e u tr a ll y.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

I s h o u ld t r y a n d r e p h r a s e .

He was

t e r m in a t e d a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d t o Mr P h o h l e l i a f te r h e w a s
t e r m in a t e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t t h e e n d o f h is c o n tr a c t w h e n w e
h a d t h is m e e t in g a n d h e w a s a l s o in f o r m e d th a t h is c o n tr a c t i s
t e r m in a t e d a n d w il l n e v e r b e r e n e w e d a n d I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m t h e
C h a ir –

M s M y e n i – s a y in g

th a t w e n e e d t o f i n d

a place for

M r K e n d y P h o h l e l i i n t h e c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t i s n o w a f t e r h e r c o n tr a c t h a s c o m e to – h a d

come to an end but before …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e – h e c o u l d a p p ly f o r a n y o th e r p o s i t io n o r w a s i t
– w a s it e v e n b e fo r e t h e e n d i n g o f t h e c o n t r a c t th a t h e h a d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I t w a s b e f o r e
t h e e n d i n g o f t h e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e w e h a d w r i t t e n a l e t t e r b e f o r e t o
n o t i fy h i m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f – o f th e m o n th
of September …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e w r o te a l e tt e r t o n o ti fy h i m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t h is

renewed …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 39 of 307

c o n tr a c t w i ll n o t b e

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U WA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d d u r in g t h a t t i m e t h e C h a ir t h e n
s a i d t h a t h e i s a s k i ll e d p e r s o n t h a t h e n e e d s to b e a p p o i n t e d a n y w a y
in th e c o m p a n y i n p a r ti c u la r in C o m m e r c ia l.

T h e m e e t in g t h a t I h a d

with the General Manage Commercial said they do not have that
p o s i ti o n i n t h e s tr u c t u r e a n y m o r e a n d i t i s a s I m e n t i o n e d e a r l ie r it i s
in t e g r a t e d a lr e a d y i n t h e r o l e s o f t h e p e o p le w it h in t h e C o m m e r c ia l
D e p a r t m e n t.
S o I – I t h e n i n f o r m e d t h e C h a ir t h a t t h e p o s i ti o n d o e s n o t
e x i s t a n y m o r e . S h o u l d t h e r e b e a n y o t h e r p o s i ti o n s io n t h e c o m p a n y h e
10

w i ll b e fr e e to a p p l y a n d s h o r tl y t h e r e a f t e r t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g t h a t
w a s c a l le d b y t h e C h a i r a n d i t w a s t e r m e d t h e B o a r d Ex c o M e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t b e f o r e y o u g e t to t h a t o n e i n y o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n

w h e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n c a l le d y o u d i d t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n e n d o n t h e b a s i s
t h a t y o u – y o u s a id h e i s fr e e t o a p p ly f o r a n y o t h e r p o s i t io n t h a t h e
m i g h t w i s h t o a p p ly f o r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir i t d i d n o t e n d o n t h a t n o t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d id e n d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t e n d e d o n a n o t e t h a t s a y s t h a t ,
h o w c a n I a s a b l a c k p e r s o n n o w n o t w a n t to a p p o i n t a n o t h e r b l a c k
20

p e r s o n w h o is s k i ll e d a n d i t e n d e d u p w i t h t h e c o n n o t a t i o n s t h a t I’ m
a n t i- tr a n s f o r m a t i o n

and

then

she

a ls o

m e n t io n e d

th a t s h e

even

e x t e n d e d c o n tr a c t s o f o t h e r w h i te p e o p le t h a t h a d w o r k e d i n t h e
c o m p a n y b e fo r e . S o w h a t is w r o n g w i t h m e ? A n d I i n d i c a t e d th a t I w a s
n o t a w a r e o f th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e s h e e x t e n d e d t h o s e c o n tr a c ts .
N o w I a m a w a r e o f t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s . I h a v e h i g h l ig h t e d t h e r is k t o th e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
c o m p a n y. I h a v e h i g h li g h t e d th e r i s k t o h i m a s I w a s d i s c u s s in g w i t h
h i m a n d I h a v e a ls o n o t o n l y th a t , w e n t b a c k to d is c u s s w i t h th e g e n e r a l
manager commercial and general manager commercial said, that
p o s i ti o n i s n o t i n h is s t r u c tu r e in c o m m e r c i a l . T h e p r o je c t h a d e n d e d
and so it ended up in.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n a k i n d o f s ta l e m a te o r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n a k i n d o f a , j a , s t a l e m a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

She wasn’t happy and you were standing your

ground?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e . T h e r e w a s a n o th e r m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , th e r e w a s a m e e t in g th a t ’s

c a l l e d f o r b o a r d a n d e x c o a n d t h e b o a r d a t t h a t ti m e w e r e t h r e e
m e m b e r s a n d i t w a s o n th e 2 8 t h a n d 2 9 t h o f S e p te m b e r i n 2 0 1 5 a n d i t
w a s a n i n te r c o n ti n e n t a l; j u s t a c r o s s a t t h e a ir p o r t f r o m A i r w a y s P a r k
fr o m o u r o ff ic e s . A t t h a t m e e ti n g , D o c t o r T h e m b i w a s n o t p r e s e n t a t t h e
m e e ti n g . S o i t w a s M s K w i n a n a a n d M s M y e n i w h o w e r e a t t h e m e e t in g .
20

A t t h a t m e e ti n g a m o n g s t o t h e r t h i n g s t h e c h a ir a s k e d t h e c o m p a n y
s e c r e t a r y to w r i t e a b o a r d r e s o lu t io n to a p o i n t K e n d y P h o h l e l i in t h e
v a c a n c y t h a t e x is t e d in t h e o ffi c e o f th e c h a ir p e r s o n . I t b e c a m e a b o a r d
r e s o l u ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e r e a p o s it i o n s u c h a s t h a t i n t h e s tr u c t u r e o f
t h e o r g a n iz a t i o n ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , c h a ir t h e r e w a s a v a c a n t

p o s i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: There was, yes.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O f a m a n a g e r i n t h e o ffi c e o f th e

c h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t i n t h e p a s t , h o w w a s t h a t p o s i ti o n f i e l d ? Wa s
t h e r e a p r o c e s s t h a t w o u ld b e f o ll o w e d i n t h e f il li n g o f t h a t p o s i ti o n i n
t h e p a s t o r is th a t s o m e th i n g y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

N o , c h a ir I a m v e r y s u r e a b o u t i t

because I was responsible for human resources.
CHAIRPERSON: For human resources, yes.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h e n a p o s i t io n w a s v a c a n t it w il l
h a v e b e e n a d v e r t is e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e y w il l h a v e a s p e c i fi c

criteria.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f t h e in c u m b e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f t h a t r o l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS

M AT H U LWA N E

E M I LY

MPSHE:

W h ic h

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t h a t r o l e .

Page 42 of 307

is

li n k e d

to

the

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s s u b je c t t o – t h e f il li n g o f th a t p o s i ti o n w a s
s u b j e c t to n o r m a l S A A r e c r u i t m e n t p r o c e s s e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t i n t h is c a s e y o u r p a r t o f y o u r p o in t is th a t

p r o c e s s w a s n ’t f o ll o w e d a n d o n e a n d tw o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t w a s b y w a y
o f b o a r d r e s o lu t io n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , t h a t is c o r r e c t , c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . A n d t h i s p h e n o m e n o n o f b o a r d r e s o l u t i o n

a p p o i n ti n g a n e m p lo y e e , w a s th a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b e f o r e
10

a s fa r a s y o u k n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It has never happened before,

c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d it w a s r e a lly a fir s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. P l e a s e c o n ti n u e a n d te ll m e m o r e a b o u t th a t

m e e ti n g .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

T h e n i t w a s s a id i t w a s a b o a r d

r e s o l u ti o n t o a p p o i n t M r K e n d y P h o h l e l i in th e o ff ic e o f t h e c h a ir w h i c h
is a p o s i ti o n t h a t w a s v a c a n t . H o w e v e r, t h e r e w a s s p e c i fi c r e q u ir e m e n ts
f o r t h e r o l e a n d th e r o l e w a s g o i n g t o r e p o r t t o t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y
a n d th e r o l e is v e r y i m p o r ta n t o n e . I n th a t i t w a s g o in g to b e a l in k
b e t w e e n t h e s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e a n d t h e b o a r d a n d in t o t h e
o r g a n i z a t io n . S o th e r e w e r e s p e c i fic r e q u i r e m e n ts a n d I r e m e m b e r j u s t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o n t o p o f m y h e a d o n e o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts w a s e i t h e r a p e r s o n w h o w i ll
h a v e h a d o r s o m e k in d o f a c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r i a t o r s o m e k i n d o f a
p a r a le g a l u n d e r s t a n d in g ; th e r e q u i r e m e n ts . A n d th e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y
w a s i n t h e m e e t i n g w h e n th is w a s s a i d a n d th e y d i d th e r e s o l u ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: And was the company secretary at this time?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y w a s M s

R u t h K ib u k a .
CHAIRPERSON:

And she was the company secretary throughout the

p e r i o d t h a t y o u w il l c o v e r a s a n a c ti n g C E O ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To d a t e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Ev e n to d a t e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To d a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. Ye s , h m ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o w h e n th e y, a t t h e e n d o f t h a t

m e e ti n g w e g o b a c k t o th e o ffi c e a n d I t h e n g o to h e r a s t h e l in e
m a n a g e r w h e n w h o h a s a ls o d o n e t h is b o a r d r e s o lu t io n . I s a i d , s o
w h e r e t o n o w ? S h e s a y s n o w a y s , n o w a y. T h i s p e r s o n d o e s n ’ t m e e t t h e
r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d t h e r e is n o w a y t h a t I c a n a p p o i n t t h i s p e r s o n in th a t
p o s i ti o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l, d o e s s h e n e e d to a p p o i n t? W a s n ’ t th e p e r s o n

a p p o i n t e d a lr e a d y b y w a y o f a b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e r e w a s a b o a r d r e s o lu t io n to

t h a t e ffe c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , c o n ti n u e y o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h th e c o m p a n y …

( in d is ti n c t) .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , s o I t h e n s a id t o h e r

n o n e th e le s s . I’l l l e a v e i t b e t w e e n y o u a n d t h e h u m a n r e s o u r c e s
m a n a g e r to s e e t h e r e c r u i t m e n t th r o u g h b e c a u s e I c a n n o t in t e r f e r e a s
t h e r e is a b r o a d r e s o l u t i o n to th a t e ff e c t . F i n a ll y, M r P h o h l e l i w a s
in v i te d t o c o m e t o th e i n t e r v ie w a n d h e d i d n ’ t g o t o t h e i n te r v i e w
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s in v i t e d t o c o m e t o t h e i n te r v i e w ?
MS

M AT H U LWA N E

E M I LY

MPSH E:

Ye s ,

he

was

going

to

be

in t e r v ie w e d . H e w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e a p p o i n te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , h a n g o n . I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n
10

was saying he was being appointed.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t th e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y w a n t e d t o s u b je c t h i m t o

a n in t e r v i e w f ir s t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , y e s . T h a t is c o r r e c t , c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h i c h m e a n t t h a t th e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y w a s n o t

prepared to have him there unless som e kind of process had been
f o ll o w e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I g u e s s e v e n i f i t w a s n ’ t t h e fu ll p r o c e s s b e c a u s e

t h e r e w a s n o a d v e r tis e m e n t o f th e p o s it i o n . S o s h e a s k e d h i m t o c o m e
f o r a n i n t e r v i e w a n d h e d i d n o t c o m e to t h e i n t e r v ie w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d h e d i d n ’ t g o to t h e in t e r v i e w.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w w h y h e d i d n ’ t g o o r d id h e s a y I h a v e

b e e n a p p o i n t e d ? Th e i n t e r v ie w i s f o r w h a t n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

F o r t h e m a n a g e r in t h e o ff ic e o f

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t h e c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o . I a m s a y in g d o y o u k n o w w h a t , w h y h e

d i d n ’ t a t t e n d t h e i n te r v i e w o r d i d h e t a k e t h e a t ti t u d e t h a t I h a v e b e e n
a p p o i n t e d t o d a y. W h a t is th e i n t e r v ie w fo r n o w ? D o y o u k n o w w h a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e f e e d b a c k I r e c e iv e d a s n o w i t
w a s b e t w e e n t h e li n e m a n a g e r w h o w a s t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y a n d t h e
H R m a n a g e r a t th a t p o i n t . Th e f e e d b a c k t h a t I h a d r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e m
w a s t h a t h e s a i d h e ’s n o t in t e r e s t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e p o s i ti o n ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t h e p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y, y e s . S o h e n e v e r s t a r te d i n th a t p o s i ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e n e v e r s t a r te d i n th e p o s i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t w a s th e e n d o f t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h a t

r e s o l u ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , t h a t w a s th e e n d o f th e , j a , o f
t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
MS ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

A n d M s M p s h e , o n t h is b o a r d r e s o lu t io n o f

t h e 2 8 t h a n d th e 2 9 t h o f S e p te m b e r, f u r t h e r d o w n y o u r a ff id a v i t o n
20

p a r a g r a p h 3 2 it l o o k s li k e i t w a s c h a l le n g e d . W h a t w a s th e b a s i s f o r
c h a l le n g i n g t h i s b o a r d r e s o l u t i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

The board reso – it was not the

o n ly b o a r d r e s o lu t io n a n d a l l th e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n s th a t w e r e d o n e a t
t h a t m e e ti n g , th e c o ll e a g u e s c h a l l e n g e d th e m ; s o m e o f th e e x c o
m e m b e r s a n d s a i d i t w a s n o t a fo r m a l ly c o n s ti t u te d b o a r d m e e t i n g .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e w a s n o c o r r e la t io n a n d s o a s
a r e s u l t o f th a t th o s e r e s o lu t io n s a r e n u ll a n d v o id . Th e y a r e n o t l e g a l
a n d a r e n o t b i n d i n g b e c a u s e th e y w e r e a s a r e s u l t o f a n o t f o r m a ll y
c o n s ti t u te d b o a r d m e e ti n g .
M S Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o t h a t o n e o f th e r e s o l u ti o n s t h a t
was queried.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C h a ll e n g e , j a .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a l l e n g e d , y e s .
M S Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h o a t te n d e d t h i s p a r t ic u l a r
m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W h o a tt e n d e d t h is p a r ti c u l a r

m e e ti n g I m e n t i o n e d e a r l ie r w a s Ms K w in a n a a n d M s M y e n i a n d th e n
t h e r e s t o f t h e e x c o m e m b e r s . My s e l f a t th a t t i m e I w a s a c ti n g C E O .
M S Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d M r M e y e r w a s a C F O . Mr N i c o
B e z u id e n h o u t w h o w a s t h e a s a s u b s i d i a r y C E O o f M a n g o . H e w a s i n
t h e m e e t i n g . M r S y lv a i n B o s c h , th e G M c o m m e r c ia l , M r M u s a Zw a n e
20

w h o w a s t h e C E O o f s u b s i d ia r y o f S A A Te c h n ic a l , M s N iv i M o o d le y w h o
w a s a c t in g i n m y r o le a s a G M H R , t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y M s K i b u k a
a n d t h e d e p u t y c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y M s M a b a n a M a k h a k h e . I c o u ld h a v e
le f t o n e o r t w o p e o p le b u t i t w a s g e n e r a l ly t h e e x c o .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h e f a c t t h a t th e y w e r e o n ly t h r e e n o n e x e c u tiv e

d ir e c t o r s o f t h e b o a r d i n th e b o a r d ; w a s t h a t i n l in e w i t h th e p r e s c r i p ts

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
r e l a ti n g t o w h a t t h e m i n i m u m n u m b e r i s t h a t th e b o a r d s h o u l d h a v e , i f
you know?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , c h a ir i t w a s n o t i n li n e .

H o w e v e r, I t h in k t h r o u g h t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y I t h i n k th e c h a ir d id
w r i t e t o D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n t e r p r i s e s o r N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a t t h e
ti m e ; w r o t e t o N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a t t h e ti m e . A n d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y
t h e n c o n fir m e d t h a t if t h e y a p p o i n t m e a s th e a c ti n g C E O i s a
n o n e x e c u tiv e d i r e c to r t h e y c a n h a v e fi v e ; i t w il l h a v e f iv e b o a r d
m e m b e r s w h i c h a t t h a t ti m e t h e y f e l t th a t w a s s u ff ic i e n t w h i le p e n d i n g
10

t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e r e s t o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s . P r e v i o u s ly w e h a d
1 2 b o a r d m e m b e r s . I th in k th e n e x t n u m b e r t h a t I a m a w a r e o f w a s
nine. Never was it three.
CHAIRPERSON:

But you were when you were acting CEO, you didn’t

b e c o m e a n o n e x e c u t iv e y o u k n o w d ir e c t o r o f th e b o a r d . Yo u r e m a in e d
e x e c u tiv e d ir e c t o r o r a c t i n g d ir e c t o r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t e v e r t h e p o s i t io n is . W h a t I’ m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t is
w h e t h e r th e p r e s c r i p ts a ll o w e d t h e n u m b e r o f n o n e x e c u ti v e d ir e c to r s t o
b e s o l o w n a m e l y t h r e e . Is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u k n o w o r i s t h a t
20

s o m e t h i n g y o u d o n ’t k n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w, c h a ir b u t I h a d

h e a r d t h a t l e g a lly a n d i n t e r m s o f th e C o m p a n ie s Ac t i t w a s n o t t h e
correct number for board members.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e i f y o u h a v e j u s t m e n ti o n e d t h a t a t s o m e

s t a g e th e r e w e r e 1 2 . N o w I d o n ’t k n o w w h e th e r t h a t is j u s t 1 2 in c l u d i n g

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
e x e c u tiv e d ir e c t o r s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n c lu d in g e x e c u t iv e d ir e c t o r s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n c l u d i n g e x e c u ti v e d ir e c t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n i t w a s 1 2 i n c l u d in g e x e c u ti v e d ir e c t o r s , d o y o u
k n o w h o w m a n y n o n e x e c u ti v e d i r e c to r s t h e r e w e r e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

There were about 10 if for my

r e c o l l e c ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

J a , s o t h e n y o u m o v e d f r o m t h e r e t o o n ly t h r e e

n o n e x e c u tiv e d ir e c t o r s ? I t ’s a n u n d e s ir a b le s it u a ti o n b u t a n y w a y, y e s
c o n ti n u e .
M S Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s M p s h e , to w r a p u p o n

t h is is s u e o f Mr P h o h l e l i . O n p a r a g r a p h 3 3 , y o u t a lk a b o u t h i s o t h e r
a p p o i n t m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e r a is e y o u r v o ic e a g a i n M s B u t h e l e z i .
MS ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

O n p a r a g r a p h 3 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u t a lk

a b o u t h is o t h e r a p p o i n t m e n t in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
M S Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I ’ m s o r r y M s B u th e l e z i . Yo u d i d n ’ t k e e p y o u r e y e
o n t h e w a tc h .
M S Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Is it t e a t i m e ?
CHAIRPERSON: I think we must take the short adjournment tea break.
I t is a q u a r te r p a s t . W e w il l r e s u m e a t 11 h 3 0 . W e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t ’s p r o c e e d .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s M p s h e w e w e r e o n t h e
la s t a s p e c t r e g a r d i n g M r ( In d i s ti n c t) I w a n t e d to fi n d o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d
t o h i m t h e n i n O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 , y o u d e a l w i th t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 3 3 o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s C h a ir, M r ( in d is ti n c t) t h e n –

t h e C h a i r f o r m e d a c o m m i t t e e a n d t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t w a s g o in g t o b e
r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e A f r i c a s tr a t e g y a n d M r P h o h l e l i is n o w i n v it e d t o
10

b e c o m e a m e m b e r o f th is c o m m i t t e e , t h e w e r e o t h e r m e m b e r s i n th a t
c o m m i t t e e a n d b e i n g c a p ta in M a m a s h e la , b e in g c a p t a i n M a n e n ts a a n d
s o m e o t h e r s t a ff m e m b e r s . W h a t w a s o d d a b o u t i t w a s t h a t ( i n d is t in c t )
P h o h l e l i is a p p o in t e d in t o t h a t p o s i ti o n , in t o t h a t c o m m i t t e e w h e r e a s h e
is n o t a n e m p l o y e e o f th e c o m p a n y a n y m o r e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s s o t h e o th e r m e m b e r s … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is w a s n o w i n O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 ?

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s h is c o n t r a c t e n d e d i n

S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

N o w t h i s c o m m i t t e e th a t y o u s a y th e C h a ir p e r s o n

f o r m e d , w a s i t a B o a r d C o m m i t te e , w h a t w a s t h e s t a tu s o f t h is
committee?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s l ik e a n a d v is o r y c o m m i t t e e ,

it w a s j u s t a c o m m i t t e e , i t h a s n e v e r b e e n f o r m e d b e fo r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d i t w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e B o a r d S t r u c t u r e o r

m a n a g e m e n t s tr u c tu r e .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It was not part of the governance

s tr u c t u r e - y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t w a s f o r in t e n t s a n d p u r p o s e s a n d i n fo r m a l

committee?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s a n in f o r m a l c o m m i t t e e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u w a s t h is c o m m i t t e e p a r t o f y o u r
t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y o r m e a n t t o b e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

No it wasn’t.

O k a y a n d t h e o th e r m e m b e r s o f t h i s

committee, were they employees of SAA?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

They were employees of SAA and

a s I m e n ti o n e d , c a p ta i n M a m a s h e l a w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a p p o in t e d a s
C h i e f O p e r a ti o n s O ffic e r a n d c a p ta in M a n e n ts a w h o w a s t h e n C h i e f
P il o t a n d h e a d o f fl i g h t o p s a c ti n g t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r g e n tl e m a n M r
( in d is ti n c t) , th e y w e r e a ll p e r m a n e n t e m p lo y e e s w i t h t h e e x c e p t io n o f
M r P h o h l e li .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t l o o k s l ik e t h r e e o f th e m – o r m e m b e r s o f t h i s

c o m m i t t e e w e r e p e r s o n s t h a t th e C h a i r p e r s o n o r Ms K w in a n a a t
20

d i ff e r e n t s t a g e s h a d i n s tr u c te d y o u t o a p p o in t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n r e g a r d to o n e o f t h e y o u h a d r e f u s e d i n r e g a r d
t o c a p t a i n M a n e n t s a , y o u tr i e d to c o m p ly b u t h e e n d e d u p s a y in g h e
n e v e r a s k e d fo r b o t h p o s i t io n s a n d h e w a s n o t c o p i n g a n d t h a t w a s t h e
e n d o f t h e p la n s t o h a v e h i m a p p o i n te d t o t h e p o s i ti o n o f h e a d o f fl i g h t

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o p e r a ti o n s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d t h e n t h e t h i r d o n e w a s M r P h o h l e li s o a l l t h r e e

t h e r e h a d b e e n a t t e m p ts b y e i t h e r M s M y e n i o r M s K w in a n a o r b o t h to
g e t t h e m a p p o i n t e d i n o n e o r o t h e r p o s it i o n s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d w h o e ls e w a s i n t h is c o m m i t te e a p a r t fr o m t h e

three then?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

I t w a s Mr Ts e b o g o M t s i m a n i ? a n d I

c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r th e o t h e r m e m b e r o n t o p o f my h e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U TH E L E Z I : M s M p s h e w a s Mr P h o h l e l i n o w p a r t o f S A A
e m p l o y e e s , w a s h e r e m u n e r a t e d f o r t h is p o s i ti o n w h a t w a s th e c a s e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

H e w a s n ’ t a n e m p lo y e e h e w a s n o t

r e m u n e r a t e d , D r Ta m b i w h o w a s t h e C h a ir o f t h i s s p e c ia l c o m m i t t e e
w a s t h e o n e w h o w o u l d s i g n h i m in , i n to S A A f o r th e m e e t in g s b u t h e
wasn’t a permanent employee, he was not remunerated.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o w h a t w a s … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

D r Ta m b i w a s a n e x e c u ti v e d ir e c t o r o f t h e B o a r d ?

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s a n o n - e x e c u tiv e d ir e c t o r.

H e w a s a n o n - e x e c u t iv e – o h h e w a s t h e t h ir d

member of the Board of the three.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Okay now I remember yes.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a n k y o u , s o w h a t w a s h is s t a tu s a t S A A

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
at that stage?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

He was not an employee.

O k a y t h a n k y o u , th e n le t ’s m o v e o n t o

a n o t h e r e x a m p l e o f a c o n tr a c t o r a n in s t a n c e w h e r e t h e r e w a s a n
in t e r fe r e n c e , i t w a s t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f L S G S k y C h e f c o n tr a c t .

We

h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e fr o m D r D a h w a o n Fr id a y r e g a r d i n g t h i s p a r t ic u l a r
tr a n s a c ti o n .

B e f o r e w e g o i n to d e t a i ls w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h i s c o n tr a c t , I

w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d t h e s ta t u s o f t h i s c o m p a n y, L S G i n S o u t h A fr ic a ,
w a s i t a S o u t h A f r i c a n c o m p a n y, w h a t d i d y o u k n o w a b o u t t h i s
10

company?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Chair what I knew about LSG Sky

C h e fs w a s , it w a s a s u b s i d i a r y o f L u f t h a n s a A ir li n e s b u t i t w a s a S o u t h
A fr ic a n r e g is te r e d c o m p a n y a n d i t w a s e m p l o y in g S o u th A fr ic a n s , i t w a s
b a s e d in S o u t h A fr i c a , t h a t ’s t h e l e g a l s t a t u s th a t I u n d e r s t a n d o f L S G
S k y C h e fs .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, ju s t o n e s e c o n d , t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U TH E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u , o t h e r t h a n i t b e in g a s u b s id ia r y
o f t h is c o m p a n y L u f t h a n s a A i r l in e s i s i t b a s e d in G e r m a n y, is t h a t
correct?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

Ye s o t h e r t h a n b e i n g a s u b s i d i a r y o f

L u f t h a n s a A ir li n e s c o m p a n y w a s it – w h a t w a s i ts s ta t u s i n t e r m s o f
B E E c o m p li a n c e i n S o u t h A f r i c a ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir i t h a d t h e r e q u ir e d

c r e d e n t ia ls fo r B E E , i t w a s a S o u t h A fr ic a n c o m p a n y.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s , w e h e a r d fr o m D r D a h w a th a t

p r o c e s s e s w e r e fo ll o w e d b e fo r e i t ’s a p p o i n t m e n t , I w a n t y o u t o g i v e u s
a h is t o r y a s to w h e r e t h e s e c o n tr a c ts e m a n a te d fr o m ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

There was a time when our

c u s t o m e r s w e r e r e a l ly c o m p l a in in g a t th e l o u n g e s – a ir p o r t lo u n g e s
about

the

s e r v ic e

and

the

p r o v is i o n

of

m e a ls

and

just

the

lo o k … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y I’ m s o r r y I th in k M s B u t h e l e z i is s ta r t e d m u c h

e a r l ie r. B e f o r e th e e v e n ts th a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o t a lk a b o u t i n te r ms o f
y o u r s t a te m e n t r e la t in g t o i t , h a d t h i s c o m p a n y h a d a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p
w i t h S A A a t a ll b e fo r e th e s e e v e n t s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e y h a d n o r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d n o

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h S A A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It h a d n o t d o n e a n y b u s i n e s s w i t h S A A ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t a t a ll .

O k a y a n d t h e n it w a s a p p o i n t e d to p r o v id e c a t e r i n g is

t h a t s o , a t a c e r ta in s t a g e , c a t e r i n g s e r v ic e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

J a t h e t e n d e r w a s to p r o v i d e

c a t e r i n g a t t h e a ir p o r ts a n d a l s o th e – i t w a s p a r t o f a p a r t n e r s h i p w it h
I n v e s te c w h o t h e n r e n o v a t e d o u r l o u n g e a t O R Ta m b o I n t e r n a t io n a l , t h e
p r e m ie r lo u n g e a n d d o m e s ti c .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w w e r e y o u i n v o lv e d a t a ll i n t h e a w a r d in g o f

t h e c o n tr a c t t o th is c o m p a n y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o C h a ir, I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d a n d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o r d i n a r i ly a C E O – a c ti n g C E O w o u l d n o t b e i n v o l v e d w i t h t e n d e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h e r e w o u l d b e a c e r t a i n le v e l w h e r e a C E O

w o u ld g e t i n v o l v e d i n t e r m s o f t h e a m o u n ts i n v o lv e d , in t e r m s o f t h e
… ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th is d i d n o t fa ll u n d e r th a t ?

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s i f t h e a m o u n t … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , o k a y s o y o u w o u ld n ’ t k n o w a b o u t th e p r o c e s s e s

t h a t w e r e f o ll o w e d i n r e g a r d t o t h e m , a ll y o u k n o w if y o u e x p e c t e d th a t
10

p r o c e s s e s w o u l d h a v e b e e n f o l lo w e d a n d y o u k n o w t h a t i t w a s
appointed?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir I k n o w t h a t p r o c e s s e s w il l

h a v e b e e n fo ll o w e d t o c o m e t o a p o in t w h e n t h e n i t w a s a w a r d e d t h e
t e n d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , o k a y t h a n k y o u , c o n ti n u e .

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u I w a n t e d y o u t o g iv e u s a h is t o r y
o n h o w t h i s c o n t r a c t e m a n a t e d t h e n w e ’l l t h e n g o o n t o y o u r i n v o l v e m e n t
in a s fa r a s t h i s c o n tr a c t i s c o n c e r n e d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

O k a y, C h a ir th e c o n t r a c t e m a n a te d

a s a r e s u l t o f o u r l o u n g e , w e w e r e n o t b e in g c o m p e t i tiv e a n y m o r e , t h e r e
w e r e o t h e r b a n k s t h a t w e r e s u p p o r t in g , lik e s lo w l o u n g e w a s b e c o m i n g
t h e m o s t p o p u la r a n d a t th e d o m e s t ic t e r m i n a l . S o I n v e s t e c c a m e i n t o
a p a r tn e r s h ip w i t h S A A t o r e v a m p o u r l o u n g e a n d s p o n s o r o u r lo u n g e
a n d b e c a u s e w e n e e d e d a c a t e r i n g o ff e r i n g t h a t w o u l d g o w i t h t h e n e w
lo o k th a t w e a c tu a l ly w a n t e d o u r p r e m i e r c u s t o m e r s t o e n j o y w e t h e n –

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t h a t ’s h o w t h e t e n d e r c a m e i n t o p la y.

Investec sponsored the

r e n o v a t io n o f t h e lo u n g e a n d t h e n t h e n e x t o ffe r i n g w o u ld h a v e b e e n
t h e m e a ls a n d th e a m b i e n c e w h ic h w a s d o n e – w o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e
b y a c a t e r in g c o m p a n y – a n a ir l in e c a te r i n g c o m p a n y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I:

M s M p s h e b e fo r e t h i s w h o w a s s e r v ic i n g

your lounges?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O u r l o u n g e s w e r e s e r v ic e d b y Ai r

C h e fs , w h ic h i s a s u b s i d ia r y o f S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
10

Ye s , d o y o u k n o w i f – w h e n t h e t e n d e r

p r o c e s s o p e n e d u p Ai r C h e fs w a s a ls o i n v it e d to b i d f o r th is p a r tic u la r
c o n tr a c t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

I a m - w a s a ls o i n v i t e d t o te n d e r.

Ye s w e n o w k n o w t h a t L S G S k y C h e fs

b e c a m e a b id d e r o f c h o ic e b y th o s e w h o w e r e r e s p o n s ib l e fo r s e l e c ti n g
t h e c o m p a n y to s e r v ic e t h o s e lo u n g e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e – w h a t w a s t h e v a lu e o f t h i s c o n tr a c t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It w a s 8 5 m il li o n o v e r a p e r i o d o f

three years.
20

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d t h e 8 5 m il li o n w a s i t p e r y e a r o r w a s i t a
o n c e - o ff a m o u n t … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e s a id o v e r a p e r io d o f th r e e y e a r s .

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Over three years.

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u , i n y o u r a ff id a v i t y o u m e n ti o n e d
t h a t y o u w r o t e a s u b m is s io n t h a t y o u a t ta c h u n d e r ta b 1 0 , w h e r e b y y o u

Page 56 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
in f o r m t h e B o a r d o f t h i s p a r tic u la r c o n t r a c t .

Ta b 1 0 a p p e a r s – i t

a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e 9 1 o f t h e d o c u m e n t s u n d e r A n n e x u r e D D 1 5 A .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , it t h a t , t h a t s u b m is s i o n t h a t y o u m a d e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s I – a s a n a c t in g C E O C h a i r i t

w a s w it h in t h e d e le g a ti o n , e v e n o f t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r a t t h e
ti m e , a n d I j u s t f e l t th a t it w o u l d b e c o u r t e s y t o in f o r m t h e B o a r d t h a t
t h e r e w ill b e a n e w s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r fo r u s a t th e a i r p o r ts w h e n w e o p e n
t h e n e w lo u n g e t h a t w a s b e i n g r e n o v a t e d .
10

There was no procedure

t h a t w a s f o r c i n g m e t o , I ju s t f e l t th a t i t w a s i m p o r t a n t th a t th e y a r e
a w a r e o f w h a t ’s h a p p e n i n g w i t h i n th e c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: So there was no approval that you expected
fr o m t h e B o a r d a t t h a t s t a g e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s a n o ti fi c a t io n .

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h i s n o ti fi c a t io n i s d a t e d t h e 2 0 t h o f
A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 , w e h a v e h e a r d fr o m D r D a h w a t h a t o n t h e 2 1 s t o f A u g u s t
the award was made to LSG Sky Chefs.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

Correct.

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : J u s t t e l l u s w h a t th e n h a p p e n s o n th e 1 s t o f
S e p te m b e r o r s h o r t ly t h e r e a ft e r, y o u d e a l w i t h th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 3 6 o f
y o u r s t a t e m e n t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l b e fo r e th a t , l e t u s s a y, y o u s e n t th is n o t if ic a ti o n

t o t h e B o a r d a n d w a s t h e r e a r e s p o n s e o r r e a c ti o n t o i t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a i r I d i d n ’ t r e c e iv e a r e s p o n s e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o n t h e s a m e d a y o f t h e 3 0 t h o f A u g u s t a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly I f o u n d a n
e m a i l w h ic h w a s d a te d t h e 1 s t o f S e p te m b e r b u t o n t h e 1 s t o f S e p t e m b e r
I h a d g o n e t o P a r l ia m e n t w it h B o a r d m e m b e r s a n d s o m e o f m y
c o l l e a g u e s , t o p r e s e n t to t h e P o r t f o l i o a n d P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d i n th a t m e e ti n g in P a r l i a m e n t ,

s o m e h o w t h e m a t t e r o f L S G S k y C h e fs w a s r a is e d t o s a y h o w c a n a
G e r m a n c o m p a n y b e a w a r d e d t h i s t e n d e r a n d th e C h a ir w a s n o t i n a
p o s i ti o n t o r e s p o n d a n d D r D a h w a , w h o w a s t h e r e , r e s p o n d e d i t a ls o
10

c a u g h t u s b y s u r p r is e b e c a u s e i t’s n o t s o m e t h i n g th a t w e h a d p r e p a r e d
f o r.

W e h a d p r e p a r e d t o ta b le t h e s t r a te g y a n d p r o g r e s s o n t h e

s tr a t e g y o f th e c o m p a n y.

S o i t b e c a m e , r e a lly s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s

d is c u s s e d f o r a p r o l o n g e d p e r i o d o f t i m e w a n ti n g t o k n o w t h e d e ta il s
a n d i t w a s p o s i ti o n e d a s i f i t w a s a G e r m a n c o m p a n y w h ic h w a s
a w a r d e d t h is te n d e r, w h e r e a s i t w a s a S o u t h A fr ic a n r e g is t e r e d
c o m p a n y t h a t w a s a w a r d e d th e t e n d e r. A t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e t i n g , o n c e
w e w e r e o u ts i d e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y m y – d o y o u r e c a ll w h o r a is e d t h e is s u e ,

w a s it a m e m b e r o f t h e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t te e o r w a s i t s o m e b o d y e ls e in
20

t h e m e e ti n g i n P a r l ia m e n t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I r e m e m b e r t h e C h a ir m e n ti o n e d ,

w h e n s h e w a s a s k i n g a q u e s ti o n r e l a ti n g t o th e s tr a t e g y a n d th e n o u t
o f n o w h e r e s h e s a i d , y o u k n o w, w e a r e a n o n - e x e c u t iv e d ir e c t o r s w e g o
t o S A A f o u r ti m e s a y e a r, a n d t h e n n o w w e h e a r th a t th e y ’v e a w a r d e d
t h is G e r m a n c o m p a n y a t e n d e r a n d th e n o t h e r P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
m e m b e r s – I r e m e m b e r a m e m b e r fr o m E F F a n d o th e r m e m b e r s s ta r t e d
a s k in g q u e s t io n s e m a n a t i n g o u t o f t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y y o u m a y c o n t in u e .

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o i t w a s - s o r r y i t w a s a C h a ir, y o u r C h a ir
M s D u d u M y e n i t h a t r a is e d th e i s s u e t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a G e r m a n
c o m p a n y th a t w a s a w a r d e d a t e n d e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d fr o m t h e r e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

A t th e e n d o f th e m e e t i n g , w e w e r e

w a i ti n g o u t s i d e fo r tr a n s p o r t t o t a k e u s t o t h e a ir p o r t a n d s h e w a s
h i g h ly ir a t e a n d s h e s a i d t o m e , “y o u m e a n b l a c k p e o p l e c a n ’ t c o o k ” .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is s h e n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ms Myeni.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d s h e s a y s to m e , “ y o u m e a n

b l a c k p e o p le c a n ’ t c o o k ” .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h a t d i d s h e m e a n b y t h a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Because the company now is

p e r c e iv e d t o b e a G e r m a n c o m p a n y a n d t h is a w a r d – te n d e r a w a r d h a s
20

b e e n g iv e n to th e G e r m a n c o m p a n y, s h e t h e n s a y s th a t , i t m e a n s i t ’s
G e r m a n p e o p l e – th e c o n n o t a ti o n is , G e r m a n p e o p l e w i ll c o o k , s o d o I
m e a n t h a t b la c k p e o p l e c a n ’ t c o o k .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ms Mpshe d o you know what – because

y o u r l o u n g e s w e r e b e i n g s e r v ic e d b y A ir C h e f s …( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a n g o n M r B u t h e le z i s h e h a s n ’ t fi n i s h e d t e l li n g u s

Page 59 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
a b o u t h e r c o n v e r s a t io n w i th t h e C h a i r p e r s o n , s h e ’s j u s t t o ld u s t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n a s k e d h e r, d o y o u m e a n b l a c k p e o p le c a n ’t c o o k .

L e t ’s

h e a r t h e s t o r y, h o w d i d y o u r e s p o n d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g I th i n k

m a y b e w e s h o u ld d is c u s s th is a t t h e o ff ic e b e c a u s e m y c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
t o h e r o n t h e 3 0 t h o u t li n e s e x a c tly t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s ta k e n a n d I
m o v e d a w a y fr o m h e r t o s t a n d , y o u k n o w j u s t w i th o t h e r c o ll e a g u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e v e r y u n h a p p y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

S h e w a s ir r i t a te d a n d a ll my

c o l l e a g u e s w e r e th e r e i n fr o n t o f my c o l le a g u e s , y o u k n o w, b e r a ti n g m e
in fr o n t o f t h e c o l le a g u e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u m a y c o n t i n u e – w a s t h a t th e e n d o f t h e

c o n v e r s a ti o n a t th a t s t a g e th e n w i th h e r … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I n C a p e To w n , th a t w a s t h e e n d o f

t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n i n C a p e To w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In C a p e To w n , o h o k a y.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s I w a n t e d to f in d o u t fr o m y o u t h e A ir

C h e fs e m p l o y e e s t h a t w e r e e m p l o y e d b y t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s
s e r v ic in g y o u r l o u n g e s b e f o r e t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f L S G S k y C h e fs , w h a t
20

h a p p e n e d t o th o s e p e o p l e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

In the negotiations with LSG Sky

C h e fs , w e n e g o ti a t e d i n t e r ms o f L a b o u r R e la t io n s A c t w h a t y o u c a l l
S e c t io n 1 9 7 g o i n g c o n c e r n , m e a n i n g th a t w e w a n te d t o l i mi t l o s s o f j o b s
fr o m A ir C h e f s .

S o w e w e r e i n p a r t n e r s h i p w i t h L S G S k y C h e fs

d is c u s s in g w i th A ir C h e fs t h a t t h e y w il l t a k e o v e r th e e m p l o y e e s t h a t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
w e r e e m p lo y e d b y Ai r C h e f s w h o w e r e g o i n g t o b e w o r k in g a t t h e a ir p o r t
in t h e lo u n g e s . S o th a t p r o c e s s h a d a lr e a d y s t a r te d , i n fa c t t h e p e o p le
w e r e a lr e a d y t r a n s f e r r e d , t h e p e o p l e a lr e a d y w e r e tr a i n e d – w e r e b u s y
b e i n g tr a i n e d i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t h e o p e n i n g o f t h e lo u n g e .

So it was

n o t p e r c e iv e d t h a t th e r e w a s g o i n g to b e a l o s s b e c a u s e o f t h e n a t u r e
o f t h e t r a n s a c t io n th a t i t w a s g o in g to b e a g o in g c o n c e r n , s o t h e
e m p l o y e e s w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d i n t o th e c o m p a n y n o w t h a t w o u l d b e
h a n d i n g t h e s e r v ic e s a t t h e a i r p o r t .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
10

Ye s a n d t h e n y o u c a m e b a c k fr o m C a p e

To w n , h o w w a s th is is s u e t h e n d i s c u s s e d f u r th e r a t t h e o ff ic e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O n t h e 2 n d o f S e p t e m b e r, I th e n

r e c e i v e d a n e m a il w h ic h w a s s e n t o n t h e 1 s t fr o m t h e C h a ir a n d s a y in g
t h a t I m u s t h o l d b a c k t h e o ff e r o f th e t e n d e r, n o t is s u e it t o L S G S k y
C h e fs .

I t h e n r e s p o n d e d t o t h e C h a ir t o s a y t h a t t h e o ff e r h a s b e e n

g iv e n , a lr e a d y t o L S G S k y C h e fs , m y e m a il o r m e m o t o h e r a n d t h e
B o a r d w a s j u s t a n o t i fic a ti o n a n d I th e n w e n t f u r t h e r t o s a y t h a t L S G
S k y C h e fs w e r e t h e l e g i ti m a t e – a w a r d e d l e g i t i m a te ly t h e t e n d e r
because they were the best in terms of the people who tendered. She
t h e n a s k e d a b o u t A i r C h e fs , I th e n w e n t b a c k to th e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t
20

O ff ic e r D r D a h w a a n d s a i d , t e l l m e w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h a t p r o c e s s a n d
t h e n I w a s in f o r m e d th a t A ir C h e f s w a s e li m i n a t e d o u t o f th e p r o c e s s
b e c a u s e t h e y d id n ’ t e v e n s u b m i t t h e f u l l d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t w a s
r e q u ir e d i n te r m s o f t h e t e n d e r, th a t ’s w h y t h e y w e r e n o t i n t h e t e n d e r
process.

Th e y

had

a p p l ie d

but

they

didn’t

c o m p l e te

d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d I e x p l a i n e d a l l th a t i n fo r ma t io n to t h e C h a ir.

Page 61 of 307

th e

fu ll

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON:
done

this

T h is w a s n o w o n a n o t h e r o c c a s i o n w h e n y o u h a d

homework

to

–

you

went

back

to

her

to

explain

… ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

On the 2nd when we came back

fr o m P a r li a m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h th e fi r s t c o n v e r s a t io n y o u h a d w i th h e r a ft e r

P a r li a m e n t , a ft e r C a p e To w n , th a t ’s w h e n y o u e x p l a i n e d a l l o f t h i s t o
her?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a lr i g h t . Yo u h a d , in th e m e a n ti m e f o u n d o u t
m o r e i n f o r m a t io n o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d t o t h e c o m p a n y t h a t h a d b e e n
there before?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O h o k a y a lr ig h t , a n d w h a t d id s h e s a y w h e n y o u

e x p l a i n e d a l l o f t h is ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S h e t h e n s a i d n o i t ’s o k a y, I h e a r

y o u b u t w e ’ll c o m e b a c k t o y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

A n d t h e n a f t e r t h a t , s h e th e n w r o te

a n e m a i l i n d ic a ti n g t h a t , a s t h e B o a r d , t h e y o r d i n a r i ly d o n ’t w a n t to
in t e r v e n e w i t h t h e d a ily o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d – b u t h o w e v e r,
t h e y w a n t m e t o c a n c e l th e a w a r d o f th e t e n d e r t o L S G S k y C h e fs . O n
r e c e i p t o f t h a t i n s tr u c t io n I c a l le d t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r, D r
D a h w a …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u c a ll e d D r D a h w a w h a t

Page 62 of 307

reasons were

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
g iv e n i n t h is e m a i l t o y o u f o r th e i n s tr u c ti o n th a t y o u m u s t c a n c e l t h e
award?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th e r e a s o n s w e r e – s h e h a d a

r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o s u p p o r t th e s u b s id ia r y o f t h e a i r li n e w h ic h is A ir C h e f s
s o i t w i ll b e r e a l ly ir r e s p o n s i b le f o r u s to a w a r d th is t e n d e r t o a n
e x t e r n a l c o m p a n y to t h e a ir li n e a n d a l r e a d y i n t h e f ir s t e m a il I h a d
e x p l a i n e d t h a t t h e r e a s o n s a n d th e b a c k g r o u n d w h y A ir C h e f s , w e
n e e d e d t o r e v iv e a n d r e v a m p t h e l o u n g e w a s b e c a u s e – p a r t o f t h is w a s
t h e o ffe r i n g w a s v e r y p o o r, t h e f o o d a n d p e o p le – c u s t o m e r s w e r e
10

c o m p la i n i n g s o s h e t h e n s a y s , n o t h e y h a v e a n o b l i g a t io n t o A ir C h e f s
and we must cancel the LSG Sky Chefs tender and award it to – and
g iv e i t t o A ir C h e f s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s t h a t e m a il … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y M s B u th e l e z i , t h i s is s ti ll i n t h e e m a i l o r

t h e r e w a s a d i s c u s s io n fo ll o w i n g h e r e m a i l w i t h y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

There was a – I responded on

e m a i l a n d t h e n s h e w r o t e b a c k o n e m a i l … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h i s is t h e e x c h a n g e o f e m a il s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h i s i s a n e x c h a n g e o f e m a il s .

O k a y s o – b u t y o u s a y t h a t t h e o n ly r e a s o n r e a ll y,

a d v a n c e d in t h e e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , w h y t h e te n d e r s h o u l d b e
c a n c e l le d w a s t h a t, s h e o r t h e B o a r d h a d a r e s p o n s ib il it y t o t h e
c o m p a n y th a t w a s a s u b s i d i a r y o f S A A ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r a n d s h e w a s

t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o o th e r r e a s o n … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d s h e w a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e
A ir C h e fs B o a r d a t th e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e w a s th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e S A A B o a r d a n d

C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e A ir C h e fs B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e r e w e r e

three Board members.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

S o s h e w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f Ai r

C h e fs a n d M r s K w i n a n a w a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f S A Te c h n ic a l a
s u b s i d ia r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d D r Ta m b i w a s s i t ti n g in a t th e

M a n g o B o a r d , t h o u g h M a n g o h a d a n i n d e p e n d e n t B o a r d – C h a ir o f t h e
Board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o t h e r e w e r e o n ly t h r e e o f t h e m ,

s o y o u w il l h a v e t o h a v e a C h a i r c o m i n g fr o m t h e b i g g e r B o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o s h e w a s th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e

S o u th A f r ic a n A i r w a y s B o a r d , t h e G r o u p a n d s h e w a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f S A
Te c h n i c a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t in o r d e r, w e ll y o u w e r e t h e a c t in g C E O w a s
it i n o r d e r to h a v e t h a t s i tu a ti o n , in t e r m s o f B o a r d m e m b e r s , I m e a n
h o w d o y o u – w h e n y o u a r e C h a ir o f th e B o a r d o f a c o m p a n y t h a t h a s

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
m a d e a te n d e r t o a c o m p a n y w h o s e B o a r d y o u a r e c h a i r i n g , h o w d o e s
that work now?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir s i m p l y i t w il l h a v e b e e n a

c o n fli c t o f i n t e r e s t u n d e r n o r m a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t d i d n ’ t c e a s e d t o i t , i t c o u ld n ’ t h a v e c e a s e d t o

b e a c o n f lic t o f in t e r e s t . M a y b e s o m e b o d y m ig h t s a y t h e r e w a s j u s t n o
o th e r w a y o f d o i n g th i n g s b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e o n ly t h r e e m e m b e r s o f
t h e B o a r d b u t I g u e s s th e r e ’s n o t m u c h y o u c a n s a y a b o u t i t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s s o – b u t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f y o u r e v id e n c e

c o r r e c t t h a t t h e o n ly r e a s o n r e a l ly t h a t s h e g a v e i n t h e e m a il
correspondence, at least,

l e a v e o u t th e r e m a r k w h e th e r y o u m e t th a t

b l a c k s c a n ’ t c o o k , i n t e r m s o f t h e e m a i ls , t h e o n ly r e a s o n g i v e n w h y t h e
a w a r d s h o u ld b e – t o L S G s h o u l d b e c a n c e l l e d w a s t h a t s h e f e lt t h a t
s h e o r h e r B o a r d n e e d e d t o b e r e s p o n s ib l e a n d b e in g r e s p o n s i b le
meant that

s h e h a d t o g iv e i n s tr u c t i o n th a t th e a w a r d to L S G b e

c a n c e l le d a n d th e te n d e r b e g iv e n t o t h e o th e r c o m p a n y w h o s e B o a r d
she was also chairing?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y c o n ti n u e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I:

C h a ir if I m a y b e o f a s s is ta n c e , M s M p s h e

t h e e m a il c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m t h e C h a i r w h e r e s h e w a s g i v i n g h e r
r e a s o n s a p p e a r s o n p a g e 111 o f E x h i b i t D D 1 5 A , w o u l d y o u p l e a s e
r e a d t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h , i n f a c t t h e t h ir d p a r a g r a p h o f t h a t e m a i l
w h e r e – th e o n e t h a t s t a r ts w i th , “ T h e B o a r d d o e s n ’ t w a n t t o i n te r f e r e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
w i t h d u e p r o c e s s ” a n d th e n e x t p a r a g r a p h t h a t f o l lo w s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

The second paragraph it says, this

is fr o m M s D u d u M y e n i t o m y s e l f a n d c o p i e d t o h e r s e l f a n d M s K w in a n a
a n d To n y D i x o n a n d J o h n D u m b y a n d R u t h G ib u g a i t s a y s ,
“The Board does not want to interfere with due process which
b e l o n g s a n d is b e t te r m a n a g e d b y t h e e x e c u tiv e .

The Board

is , h o w e v e r, p a r t ic u l a r ly m o r e i n t e r e s te d i n th e p r i n c ip l e s
a p p li e d i n t h i s c o n tr a c t a n d a w a r d .

Having said that, where

t h e B o a r d f e e ls t h a t th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n d o e s n o t t a k e p r o p e r
10

c o n s i d e r a ti o n o f p e r ti n e n t p r i n c ip le t h e n i t w il l b r in g th is to
y o u r a t t e n ti o n a s t h e a c t i n g C E O . A t h e m e e t in g t h e B o a r d d i d
p r e c i s e ly t h a t , i t r a i s e d t h e c o n c e r n t h a t t h e a w a r d i n g o f t h i s
c o n tr a c t m i g h t h a v e u n i n t e n d e d c o n s e q u e n c e s t h a t a ff e c t
certain

s t r a t e g ic

s u p p o r t in g

South

c o n s i d e r a t io n s .
A fr i c a n

E x a m p le s

b u s in e s s e s ,

could

mean

e n h a n c in g

lo c a l

e m p l o y m e n t , c o n s i d e r in g th e i m p a c t o n y o u r o w n s u b s i d i a r ie s
h e r e b e i n g A ir C h e f s t o th e d is c u s s i o n p e r t a i n i n g th is c o n tr a c t .
H e n c e t h e B o a r d a s k e d t h a t t o th e e x t e n t p o s s ib le , w e w o u l d
lik e th e e x e c u ti v e t o s u s p e n d fu r t h e r c o n s i d e r a t io n o n t h is
20

p r o c e s s u n t il w e w e r e p r o v i d e d w i t h i n f o r m a ti o n o n t h e s e
concerns.
T h i s w a s o n 2 6 A u g u s t a t th e B o a r d m e e ti n g , n o - o n e w a s o n
s i te .

I f a s y o u i n fo r m u s , t h a t a c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n a w a r d e d ,

t h e n th e B o a r d d o e s n o t w is h t o in t e r f e r e w it h t h e l e g a l
p r o c e s s , w e d i d n o t h a v e t h a t i m p r e s s io n a t th e B o a r d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
m e e ti n g . R e g a r d l e s s , h o w e v e r, o f t h e s t a t e o f t h is te n d e r, t h e
B o a r d r e q u ir e s a n s w e r s t o i ts c o n c e r n s , s o m e o f t h e s e y o u
h a v e p r o v i d e d to b e lo w, t h e r e a r e o t h e r q u e s ti o n s o u t s ta n d i n g
a n d y o u r a n s w e r s h a v e r a is e d o t h e r s . T h is m u s t b e p r o v i d e d
u r g e n tl y th e b o a r d r e q u i r e s a c o m p r e h e n s i v e r e v i e w o f th e
a w a r d in g o f t h i s t e n d e r.

I a m n o w p a r t ic u l a r ly i n te r e s te d o n

w h a t g r o u n d s A i r C h e fs fa il e d t o m e e t t h e in it i a l t h r e s h o l d a n d
w a s e l i m in a t e d f r o m t h e e v a lu a ti o n f u r th e r. R e g a r d le s s o f t h e
o u t c o m e o f t h i s te n d e r t h a t m u s t s u r e ly b e a m a j o r c o n c e r n o f
10

the board.

I a ls o b e l i e v e t h a t w e n e e d t o b e q u i te c l e a r o n

a n o t h e r is s u e r a i s e d b y y o u i n y o u r e m a i l .

The board

d e l e g a t e s a u t h o r i ty t o th e e x e c u ti v e t o i m p l e m e n t c e r ta i n
a c ti v i ty.

T h e d e le g a ti o n p o l ic y is a b o a r d p o lic y.

r e m a in s

le g a l ly

i m p l e m e n ta t io n

per
of

the

PFMA

decisions

The board

accountable

under

th a t

p o li c y.

for

the

H a v in g

d e l e g a t e d th is a u th o r i ty d o e s n o t l i m i t t h e b o a r d i n a d d r e s s in g
is s u e s a r i s i n g fr o m t h e e x e c u t io n o f t h e s e a n d i t d o e s n o t
m e a n th e b o a r d m a y n o t r e v ie w t h e d e l e g a ti o n l i m i ts i f
n e c e s s a r y.
20

d e l e g a ti o n

The
of

fact

authority

q u e s t io n in g t h e m a t t e r.

that

th is

does

not

m a tt e r

was

prevent

within

the

your

board

in

I n c o n c l u s io n i f t h e c o m p a n y h a s

la w fu ll y c o m m i t t e d i ts e lf t o t h e s u c c e s s f u l b i d d e r t h e n w e d o
n o t w is h t o in t e r f e r e w i t h t h a t p r o c e s s .

H o w e v e r th e b o a r d

u r g e n tl y r e q u i r e s a c o m p r e h e n s iv e r e v ie w o f t h e a w a r d i n g o f
t h is c o n tr a c t a n d t o b e t t e r u n d e r s t a n d t h e a p p l ic a ti o n o f t h e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
d e c is i o n m a k i n g p r o c e s s .

W o u ld y o u p l e a s e a r r a n g e fo r t h a t

t o b e p r o v i d e d b e f o r e th e e n d o f d a y o n 1 5 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ?
I f y o u r e q u ir e a n y c l a r if ic a ti o n o f w h a t is r e q u i r e d p l e a s e d o
n o t h e s i t a te t o c o n ta c t m e .

Ai r C h e fs d i d r a is e m a n y

o b j e c ti o n s q u e s ti o n i n g t h e m o t iv e o f t h is b u t w e r e d e f e a t e d .
W e h a v e t o g e t t h e a n s w e r s a s t o w h y a n d b y w h o m w a s t h is
being done. Regard Ms Dudu Myeni.”
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s .

W e h a v e h e a r d y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t

a m o n g o t h e r is s u e s t h e i s s u e o f jo b l o s s e s w a s c a t e r e d fo r b u t I a m
10

in t e r e s te d h o w d i d y o u r e s p o n d t o t h i s e m a il ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e s p o n s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e th a t I s e e t h a t i n t h is e m a i l i t s e e m s a t l e a s t i n
c e r t a i n p a r ts o f i t t h a t s h e is s a y i n g i f y o u h a v e a lr e a d y a w a r d e d t h i s
t e n d e r w e d o n o t w a n t to in t e r fe r e a s t h e b o a r d b u t w e w o u l d li k e to b e
f u ll y i n f o r m e d a s to h o w t h a t c a m e a b o u t a n d h o w t h e p r i n c ip le s w e r e
a p p li e d . Is y o u r – is th a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s w e ll ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . Ye s c o n t i n u e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d – b u t h o w d i d y o u r e s p o n d t o th is

20

e m a i l ? Yo u w e r e s a y i n g b e f o r e t h a t w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I n t h e – i n th e r e s p o n s e I t h e n

r e q u e s t e d D o c t o r D a h w a to g i v e a f u l l b a c k g r o u n d i n l i n e w i t h t h e
request.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Fr o m t h e C h a ir a n d th e n I t h e n

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
f o r w a r d e d t h e r e s p o n s e s to t h e C h a ir c o p y i n g t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . W h e n d i d t h e fi n a l i n s tr u c t io n t o h a v e
t h is c o n tr a c t c a n c e ll e d c o m e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll n o b e f o r e t h a t l e t u s i d e n t if y t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t

y o u s e n t to h e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: If it is in the bundle?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t i s t h e n e x t a n n e x u r e C h a i r t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

A n n e x u r e u n d e r Ta b 1 4 .

O n p a g e 11 4 , is

t h a t y o u r r e s p o n s e th e C h a i r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s th e – my r e s p o n s e is t h e

s e c o n d p a r t o f th e e m a i l .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s w o u l d y o u p l e a s e t h e n r e a d y o u r

r e s p o n s e f o r th e r e c o r d s ta r t in g fr o m p o i n t n u m b e r 1 ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll s h e m i g h t n o t n e e d t o r e a d t h e w h o l e o f it .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

U n l e s s i t is c o n s i d e r e d th a t t h e w h o l e o f i t is

i m p o r t a n t o t h e r w is e s h e c a n j u s t h ig h l i g h t t h e i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e s o f h e r
response.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

P l e a s e d o h i g h l ig h t t h o s e f e a tu r e s M s

Mpshe.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t if y o u . ..
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u t a k e t h e v ie w th a t t h e w h o l e n e e d s t o b e r e a d
y o u c a n te ll m e b u t i t s e e ms t o m e t h a t ju s t h i g h l i g h t in g t h e m a i n
f e a t u r e s m ig h t b e e n o u g h .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O k a y.

O n – n o w I s u p p o s e I w il l

s a y o n – fr o m p o i n t 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o w li n k i n g to t h e p o i n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f m y le a d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
“ T h a t th e r e a r e n o jo b l o s s e s e m a n a ti n g fr o m th e
a w a r d o f s e r v ic e s t o L S G S k y C h e fs a s a n y i m p a c t e d
A ir C h e fs e m p l o y e e s w i ll b e tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e
s u c c e s s fu l b id d e r a s p e r c o n d it i o n s s e t o u t i n t h e
t e n d e r d o c u m e n t a n d in a c c o r d a n c e w i th S e c ti o n 1 8 9
– 1 9 7 o f T h e L a b o u r R e l a ti o n s A c t . N o t w i t h s ta n d i n g
t h a t L S G G r o u p is a c o l le c ti o n o f c o m p a n i e s u n d e r
the

20

German

Registered

LSG

L u ft h a n s a

S e r v ic e

H o l d i n g a n d t h e lo u n g e c a t e r in g s e r v i c e s h a v e b e e n
a w a r d e d t o S k y C h e fs S o u t h A f r ic a . A S o u th A f r i c a n
R e g is te r e d e n t i ty w h ic h lo c a ll y s o u r c e s a n d p r o d u c e s
p r o d u c ts p r o c u r e d b y S A A .

A c c o r d i n g ly a n d i n

i m p o s i n g o ffic e o b li g a t io n s to th e b o a r d m a n a g e m e n t
w i s h t o h i g h l ig h t th e le g a l i m p lic a ti o n s i n h e r e n t t o

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t h e b o a r d d e c i s i o n to c a n c e l t h e a w a r d o f t h e
s e r v ic e s .

H a v i n g r e g a r d i n p a r ti c u la r t h e le g a l

r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e b o a r d t o b e f u l ly a p p r is e d o f a l l
r e l e v a n t d e t a ils i n r e a c h i n g a d e c i s i o n o f t h is n a t u r e .
Please

k i n d ly

refer

to

the

a t ta c h e d

le g a l

memorandum and annexures thereto.”
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I t h i n k – I t h i n k p a r a g r a p h 6 o f y o u r r e s p o n s e a t
p a g e 11 5 is i m p o r ta n t . D o y o u w a n t t o r e a d t h a t?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir w h ic h p o in t w a s t h a t?
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 6.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P o i n t – p o i n t 6 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P a r a g r a p h 6 ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
“As

per

the

board

n o ti fi c a t i o n

of Au gust

2015

r e s p o n s e s t o t h e R F P w e r e r e c e i v e d f r o m A ir C h e fs ,
L S G Sk y C h e fs a n d D n a t a / N e w r e s t .

A la w fu l a n d

d u ly c o n s ti t u t e d p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s f o ll o w e d in
20

respect

of

w h ic h

p r o p e r ly e v a lu a t e d .

a ll

r e c e iv e d

responses

were

I n t h is r e g a r d i t m u s t b e n o t e d

t h a t A ir C h e fs fa il e d to m e e t th e i n it i a l m i n i m u m
t h r e s h o ld f o r e v a lu a ti o n i n t h e te n d e r a n d w a s
la w fu ll y p r e c l u d e d fr o m p r o c e e d i n g t o f u r t h e r s t a g e s
o f e v a lu a ti o n . ”

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d h o w w e r e t h e s e n e w s r e c e iv e d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m s o r r y M s B u th e l e z i. I th i n k p a r a g r a p h a l s o
is i m p o r t a n t . M a y b e y o u c a n r e a d th a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 4 of
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P a r a g r a p h 4 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i s a ls o i m p o r t a n t j a .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y.
“ A s th e b o a r d n o t i fic a t io n o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 in e l e c t in g
10

t o g o o u t o n t e n d e r th e b u s in e s s c a r e f u l ly c o n s i d e r e d
t h e s tr a te g i c i m p l ic a ti o n s o f A ir C h e f s p o s s ib ly n o t
b e i n g s e l e c t e d a s a s u c c e s s f u l b i d d e r v i s a v i e th e
b u s i n e s s i m p e r a ti v e o f t h e r e t e n t io n o f p r e m i u m
customers

in

a

h ig h l y

c o m p e t i ti v e

m arket.

In

a d d it i o n d u e c o n s id e r a ti o n w a s g i v e n t o a n y a d v e r s e
market

perceptions

created

th r o u g h

e le c t in g

to

t e n d e r fo r l o u n g e s e r v ic e s t h u s h a v i n g 4 .2 6 5 o f
s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d b y A ir C h e fs i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e ir
total SAA account.”
20

T h i s p a r a g r a p h s ta t e s th a t th e y – i f th e y a r e n o t r e c e iv in g th e l o u n g e
t e n d e r i t w i ll o n ly b e 4 . 2 6 % o f t h e w h o le o ffe r i n g a t S A A b e c a u s e t h e y
w i ll c o n ti n u e t o – o r r e n d e r t h e s e r v ic e s a t t h e – w i th t h e a i r c r a f t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s a v e r y s m a ll p e r c e n ta g e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s i t w a s a v e r y s m a l l p e r c e n t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y c o n t i n u e M s B u t h e l e z i .
A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

H o w – h o w w e r e t h e s e n e w s r e c e iv e d b y

C h a ir ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e n e w s w e r e n o t w e l l r e c e iv e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n p a r t ic u l a r I r e m e m b e r a r e s p o n s e
fr o m M s K w i n a n a I t h i n k i n h e r r e s p o n s e s h e s a i d t h a t th is is tr e a s o n .
T h i s d e c is i o n t o a w a r d L S G S k y C h e fs .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Is tr e a s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M s K w in a n a ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is M s K w i n a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Pr io r o r a f t e r t h i s e m a il o r y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
that part?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s a ft e r.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I th in k i t m u s t h a v e b e e n p r i o r. M s M p s h e i f
I m a y r e f e r y o u t o t h e t w o e m a i ls t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d o n th e 3 S e p t e m b e r.
T h e f ir s t o n e i t i s f r o m t h e C h a ir. I t s ta r t s fr o m t h e s a m e p a r a g r a p h 11 5

20

where you were at the bottom of paragraph 15.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e 3 S e p t e m b e r i t is Ta b – w h ic h
p a g e ? O n th e s a m e o n e ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s o n t h e s a m e p a g e . P a g e 11 5 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h e – a t t h e b o tt o m o f t h a t p a g e t h e r e i s

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
a n e m a il .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : F r o m D u d u z e l i M y e n i t o Ya h k e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s th e e m a il …
A D V ZI N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Yo u r s e l f a n d o t h e r m e m b e r s o f t h e – o f t h e
board.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Yo u w a n t m e t o r e a d i t ?
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h a t w a s s a i d o n t h a t e m a il y e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . T h i s is n o w fr o m M s M y e n i o n
the 3 September and it says:
“ A s p r e v io u s A c t in g C E O k n o w s w e l l – s o th e
p r e v i o u s A c ti n g C E O k n o w s w e ll w h a t w e w a n t e d a s
a s h a r e h o ld e r a n d t h is p r o c e s s w h i c h w a s s ta r t e d in
M a y is c o n tr a r y t o o u r d e c is i o n .

The board in

F e b r u a r y a n d M a r c h d is c u s s e d o u ts o u r c in g A ir C h e fs
t o a n o u ts id e c o m p a n y. T h e r e a s o n w h y w e d i d n o t
a d v e r t is e t h e C E O p o s i t io n w a s b a s e d o n t h i s .
20

S e c o n d ly b e f o r e t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e L S G a t
t h e b o a r d m e e ti n g n o - o n e m a d e a n y s u b m is s i o n s o r
r a i s e d t h e s e t h i n g s t o u s a t t h e b o a r d m e e ti n g .

A

t h o r o u g h i n v e s ti g a ti o n i s f u l ly s u p p o r t e d a s p e r t h e
Audit

and

c o n tr a c t

R is k
w it h o u t

C o m p l ia n c e
the

Chairperson.

shareholder

Page 74 of 307

n o ti n g

The
the

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
s u b m is s io n s h o u ld b e n u ll i fi e d . A s a s h a r e h o ld e r w e
h a v e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s t o e n s u r e t h a t o u r s u b s i d i a r ie s
a r e a s s is t e d a n d o u r d e c i s i o n s m u s t b e t o t h e b e s t
in t e r e s t o f S A A a n d S o u t h A fr ic a . ”
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s a n d b e f o r e th a t th e y – o r b e lo w t h a t

e m a i l th e r e is a n e m a il t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms B u th e le z i . I t h i n k t h e r e i s a – s o m e ju m p i n g th a t
h a s h a p p e n e d . Yo u s e e w h e n y o u w e r e a s k i n g h e r a b o u t t h e e m a i l h e r
r e s p o n s e t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r ti n g a t p a g e 11 4 w h i c h g o e s u p to 11 5 I r e a lis e d
fr o m t h e c o n t e n t t h e r e o f th a t th e e m a i l s e e ms t o b e t a l k i n g o n th e
b a s is th a t t h e b o a r d w a s s a y i n g o r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s s a y in g t h e
a w a r d s h o u ld b e c a n c e ll e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – a n d I w a s s ti ll g o in g t o a s k h e r a b o u t t h a t w h e r e
s h e to o k t h a t fr o m b u t I r e a lis e n o w t h a t it lo o k s li k e t h e r e w a s a n e m a il
e a r l ie r t h e o n e s h e h a s j u s t f i n is h e d r e a d i n g w h i c h w a s e a r li e r.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s e v e n t h e o n e th a t is fr o m M s K w in a n a i t

20

is b e f o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a – j a l e t u s tr y a n d f o ll o w.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I w i ll d o s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t e v e r y t h i n g g o in a c c o r d a n c e w it h t h e s e q u e n c e

b e c a u s e o th e r w i s e y o u g e t c o n f u s e d t o s a y
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I a c c e p t .

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CHAIRPERSON:

W h y is s h e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e a w a r d b e i n g c a n c e l l e d

b e c a u s e i n t h e p r e v i o u s e m a il th a t s h e h a d r e a d fr o m th e C h a i r t h e r e
w a s n o i n d ic a t io n o f h e r s a y i n g c a n c e l?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n s t e a d s h e w a s s a y i n g i f th e a w a r d h a s a l r e a d y b e e n
m a d e w e a s t h e b o a r d d o n o t w a n t to i n te r f e r e .

So when she was

r e a d in g th is r e s p o n s e – w h e n I l o o k e d a t t h is r e s p o n s e i t d id n o t s e e m
to …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d i t i s d a t e d e a r l ie r o n t h e 3 S e p te m b e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e s p o n d t o t h a t e m a il s o le t u s m a k e s u r e th a t w e
get the sequence right.
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

And the email that you

r e fe r r e d to t h a t c a m e fr o m M s K w i n a n a c o m e s o n t h e – f u r t h e r d o w n
t h a t p a g e , p a g e 11 6 .

W o u ld y o u p le a s e ju s t h i g h li g h t t h e i m p o r t a n t

p o i n t s o n th a t e m a i l?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Th e i m p o r t a n t p o in t s I w i ll g o to a t
paragraph 3.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

“ I r e c o m m e n d th a t t h e a w a r d b e c a n c e ll e d a n d i f t h e y
c la i m f o r d a m a g e s t h e l e t t e r w a s w r i t t e n o n t h e 2 0 t h
a n d th a t is w h a t i t is t h a t t h e y w il l h a v e p r e p a r e d
b e t w e e n 2 0 t h a n d t h e 3 r d u n l e s s t h e y k n e w t h a t th e
t e n d e r is t h e ir s . I m u s t ta k e t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty t o s a y
t h a t I a m v e r y d is t u r b e d b y th is d e c i s i o n . ”

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CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry what page are we now on Ms Buthelezi?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e a r e o n p a g e 11 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

11 6 , 11 6 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e w e d e a l w i t h t h a t . W a s Ms K w in a n a t h e o n ly
o n e a t t h a t s t a g e w h o h a d w r i tt e n o r t a lk e d a b o u t c a n c e l la t io n o f th e
award Ms Mpshe?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e C h a ir a ls o i n h e r l e t t e r – t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n M s D u d u M y e n i .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h ic h …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H a d a ls o r e fe r r e d th e c a n c e ll a ti o n
o f t h e t e n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h ic h l e t te r ? L e t u s l o o k a t th a t I j u s t w a n t …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e e m a il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o n o t w a n t u s t o s k i p t h e s e q u e n c e j a . M s B u th e le z i
w h e r e i s t h a t l e t t e r o r fr o m w h ic h …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n p a g e 11 6
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t i s o n p a g e 11 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t o n e ?

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n th e to p p a r a g r a p h 1 ,2 , 3 ,4
“ T h e c o n tr a c t w i th o u t t h e s h a r e h o ld e r n o t in g th e
s u b m is s io n s h o u l d b e n u lli f ie d . ”
T h a t is r e f e r e n c e d fr o m M s M y e n i.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y ju s t – is t h a t – a n d h e r o n e is – is i t d a t e d
the 3rd?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s i t w a s a ls o d a t e d o n [ i n d is ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d M s K w i n a n a a ls o s e n d y o u a n e m a il o n th e s a m e
date?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e f o l lo w i n g w a s t h e s a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s a m e – th e y b o t h w r o t e o n th e s a m e d a t e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a y i n g n u l li fy o r s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h o s e li n e s ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y c o n t in u e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I s t a r t e d w i t h p a r a g r a p h 3 .
“ I r e c o m m e n d th a t t h e a w a r d b e c a n c e ll e d a n d i f t h e y
c la i m f o r d a m a g e s t h e l e t t e r w a s w r i t t e n o n t h e 2 0 t h
a n d w h a t is i t th a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e p r e p a r e d b e t w e e n
2 0 t h a n d to d a y t h e 3 r d u n le s s th e y k n e w t h a t t h e
t e n d e r is t h e ir s . I m u s t ta k e t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty t o s a y
t h a t I a m v e r y d is t u r b e d b y th is d e c i s i o n w h i c h is

20

k il li n g S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s s u b s id i a r y.

As the

C h a ir p e r s o n o f S A A Te c h n ic a l is m a k i n g m e v e r y
n e r v o u s w h e r e o n e d a y I w il l w a k e u p a n d f in d o u t
t h a t S A A F l e e t i s s e r v ic e d a n d m a i n ta in e d b y a
f o r e i g n c o m p a n y t h a t c o m p e t e d w i th S A A Te c h n ic a l .
M y s i m p l e r h e t o r i c q u e s ti o n is if S o u t h A f r ic a n

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A ir w a y s a n d it s s u b s id i a r i e s w e r e o w n e d b y y o u
w o u ld y o u g iv e b u s i n e s s t o y o u r c o m p e t i to r i f y o u d o
e x a c tl y th e s a m e b u s in e s s ?

C h a ir p e r s o n t h is l o o k s

lik e tr e a s o n a n d I r e q u e s t t h is to b e i n v e s t ig a t e d b y
t h e S I U S p e c ia l I n v e s t ig a ti n g U n it . ”
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s s o t h is i s w h e r e i t a ll s t a r t e d fo r t h is

is s u e o f c a n c e ll a ti o n o f t h is c o n tr a c t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is w h e r e i t s t a r te d , c o r r e c t .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s .

Ye s w h a t w a s y o u r – y o u t h e n

r e s p o n d e d t o t h e m in t h e e m a il th a t – i n t h e m a n n e r th a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o
e a r l ie r.

I w a n te d to k n o w d id y o u a t a n y s t a g e c o n s u l t y o u r l e g a l

d e p a r t m e n t t o s e e k – t o g e t a n o p in i o n o n w h e t h e r c a n c e ll in g – o n t h e –
w h a t w i ll h a p p e n s h o u ld y o u c a n c e l th is c o n tr a c t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir I d i d – I

r e q u e s t e d t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r D o c to r D a h w a t o l is t o u t t h e
w h o le p r o c e d u r e a s i t w a s r e q u e s t e d in th e C h a i r ’s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d
I a ls o w e n t t o t h e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t a n d I a s k e d t h e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t to
20

g iv e u s a le g a l o p i n io n a s to w h a t w i ll t h e i m p a c t b e o n th e c o m p a n y i f
w e g o a h e a d a n d th e n c a n c e l t h is L S G S k y C h e f te n d e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And then – and that email I then

a l lu d e d t o th e l e g a l o p i n io n .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d w h a t w e r e th e c o n c l u s i o n s o f t h e

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le g a l d e p a r t m e n t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y Ms B u t h e le z i . Ar e w e n o w o n –
a r e y o u r e f e r r in g t o a n e m a i l o th e r th a n t h e o n e t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o
e a r l ie r o n f r o m y o u t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n th e e m a i l o f th e 8 t h ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e o n e w e d e a l t w i t h e a r li e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m y o u t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e – I r e s p o n d e d t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d b y th a t t i m e in th a t r e s p o n s e I
h a d a lr e a d y g o n e t o th e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r t o o u tl i n e t h e
p r o c e s s f o l lo w e d a n d a ls o g o n e to t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t t o g i v e u s a
le g a l o p i n i o n a s t o w h a t t h e l e g a l c o n s e q u e n c e s w il l b e s h o u l d w e
c a n c e l a s p e r t h e i n s tr u c ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e

c a n c e l la t io n o f t h e c o n tr a c t w a s b e c a u s e y o u w e r e a w a r e o f t h e e m a il s
20

t h a t b o t h Ms K w i n a n a a n d Ms M y e n i h a d s e n t t o y o u .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e y w a n t e d c a n c e ll a ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d w h a t w a s t h e v ie w o f y o u r l e g a l

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
d e p a r t m e n t w it h r e g a r d s t o th e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f th is c o n tr a c t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e v ie w o f t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t

w a s th a t w e w il l r e a ll y s u ffe r c o n s e q u e n c e s t o t h e e x t e n t o f t h e v a lu e o f
t h e d u r a ti o n o f t h e c o n t r a c t w h ic h is a b o u t 8 5 m i l li o n a n d fu r t h e r o th e r
r e p u t a ti o n a l d a m a g e a n d I t h i n k t h o s e – I r e m e m b e r t h o s e t w o o n j u s t
on…
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , y e s i f I m a y a s s i s t y o u .

If y o u c a n

lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 4 a n d r e a d t h e c o n c l u s io n s t h e r e t h a t w e r e
reached by your legal department.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P a r a g r a p h 1 3 4 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t 1 3 4 o f h e r a ffi d a v i t ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P a g e 1 3 4 – p a g e 1 3 4 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P a g e 1 3 4 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n c o n c lu s i o n ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is a t p a g e 1 3 4 f ir s t b e fo r e w e h e a r a b o u t y o u r
conclusion?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M a y b e w e s h o u ld – w e s h o u ld – M s M p s h e .

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is a le g a l o p in i o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W o u l d y o u p l e a s e l o o k a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Let us hear that – what it is?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 7 .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: Okay I am sorry Ms Buthelezi hang on, hang on. Let
t h e w i tn e s s t e l l u s w h a t is a t p a g e 1 3 4 a n d t h e n s h e c a n t e ll u s – r e a d
t o u s t h e r e le v a n t p a r t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir t h e r e is a le g a l o p i n i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Does it start at page 127?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t s ta r t s o n p a g e 1 2 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t a le g a l o p i n io n f r o m y o u r – fr o m S A A ” s l e g a l
d e p a r t m e n t a t th e ti m e ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d id t h is le g a l o p i n i o n c o m e a b o u t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I had then requested on being

n o t i fi e d w h e r e t h e C h a ir u s e d th e w o r d ‘ n u l li fi e d ’ th e c o n tr a c t n e e d s to
b e n u ll i fi e d I th e n c o n t a c t e d th e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t a n d a s k e d t h e m t o
g iv e u s a p r o p e r l e g a l o p i n i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A s t o w h a t th e i m p a c t a n d t h e

c o n s e q u e n c e s fo r t h e c o m p a n y w i ll b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S h o u l d t h is c o n tr a c t b e c a n c e l l e d –
the award be cancelled.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d t h i s w a s th e le g a l o p i n i o n t h a t th e y g a v e

you.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h is w a s th e l e g a l o p in i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h a t w a s th e c o n c l u s i o n th a t t h e y g a v e y o u ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
I th in k t h a t is t h e p a r a g r a p h M s B u t h e le z i w a n t e d y o u to …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s t h a t is th e p a r a g r a p h C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e a d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: The paragraph at page 134. At the bottom
of page 134.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s a n d c o n c l u s io n .
“ T h e t e n d e r f o r c a te r i n g s e r v ic e s a t S A A lo u n g e s w a s
p r o c e d u r a l ly a n d l a w fu ll y a w a r d e d to L S G .

T h is

a w a r d w a s i n l i n e w i th t h e P F M A a n d t h e P P P FA
10

r e g u la t io n s a s w e l l a s th e S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s
Procurement

P o lic i e s

and

Procedures.

As

h i g h l ig h te d a b o v e t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n a n d o r p u t t in g o n
hold of the award may result in possible legal action
and

fi n a n c i a l

exposure

against

South

A fr ic a n

A ir w a y s . ”
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
“ A n y d e c is i o n to s u s p e n d o r c a n c e l t h e a w a r d o f th e
t e n d e r b y S A A w il l a m o u n t t o a d m i n i s t r a ti v e a c ti o n
20

w h ic h

action

e q u it a b l e ,
e ffe c tiv e .

w i ll

need

tr a n s p a r e n t,

to

be

o b j e c t iv e ly

c o m p e t i tiv e

and

fa ir,
cost

N o d u ly c o n s t i tu t e d m e e t i n g o f t h e b o a r d

was held regarding the subject matter whereof and
a s s u c h a n y d e c is io n ta k e n i n th is r e g a r d w ill b e
c o n s i d e r e d in v a li d a n d s ta n d s to b e s e t a s i d e .

Page 83 of 307

We

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
r e c o m m e n d th a t t h e a c t in g C E O e n g a g e s w i t h t h e
b o a r d a n d t o p r o v i d e t h e b o a r d w i th t h e b a c k g r o u n d
in f o r m a ti o n in th is m e m o r a n d u m w i th a n n e x u r e s t o
a s s is t t h e b o a r d i n m a k in g a n i n fo r m e d d e c is io n
b a s e d o n a l l th e a v a il a b l e i n f o r m a ti o n o n t h e m a t t e r. ”
A n d i t w a s c o m p i le d b y E p h r a i m L u s e n g a
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O r le g a l a d v i s o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o , n o t h a t is fi n e .
10

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . D id y o u m a k e t h e b o a r d to b e
a w a r e o f t h e s e – o f th e s e fi n d i n g s o f t h i s v i e w o f y o u r le g a l
d e p a r t m e n t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I – c o r r e c tl y C h a ir I d i d m a k e th e

b o a r d a w a r e a n d a ls o i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h e le g a l o p i n i o n w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a t t a c h e d i t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t t a c h e d . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u s e n t i t t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e b o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e w h o l e b o a r d ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t w a s s t il l 3 , 3 m e m b e r s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s th a t w a s t h e t h r e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o n - e x e c u t iv e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, A lr ig h t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n a ft e r th is
was sent to the board?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

F o ll o w e d – a f t e r t h a t w e h a d t h a t

m e e ti n g a t th e In t e r c o n ti n e n t a l t h e 2 8 t h a n d 2 9 t h S e p t e m b e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d o n e o f th e – e a r li e r o n I

m e n ti o n e d th e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n t o a p p o i n t K e n d y P h o h le li .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

A n d t h e o t h e r r e s o l u ti o n o n t h a t

m e e ti n g o n e o f t h e o th e r s w a s t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f t h e L S G Te n d e r
Aw a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th is l e g a l o p i n i o n fr o m y o u r l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t I s e e i t
w a s s i g n e d b y v a r i o u s p e o p le o n th e 8 t h S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . S o t h e b o a r d
m e m b e r s w o u l d h a v e r e c e iv e d i t q u i te i n t i m e f o r t h e m e e ti n g a t t h e e n d
of September?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C o r r e c t th e y w o u l d h a v e l o n g

r e c e i v e d i t b y th e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e r e s o l u ti o n th a t th e a w a r d b e c a n c e l l e d

n e v e r t h e l e s s w o u ld h a v e b e e n p r e c e d e d b y I w o u l d i m a g i n e s o m e
d is c u s s io n a n d d e li b e r a t io n s in t h e li g h t o f th e l e g a l o p in io n fr o m S A A’s
own legal department?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Chair I think the point that was

m a d e i n t h e – in t h e c o n c lu s i o n .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t n o – o n p o i n t 5 . 2
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h e r e th e l e g a l o p in i o n s t a te s t h a t :
“ A n y d e c is i o n to s u s p e n d o r c a n c e l t h e a w a r d o f th e
t e n d e r w i ll a m o u n t to a d m i n i s t r a t iv e a c ti o n w h ic h
a c ti o n w i ll n e e d t o b e o b je c t iv e l y f a ir, e q u i ta b le ,
tr a n s p a r e n t,

c o m p e ti t iv e

and

cost

e ffe c t iv e .

It

f u r th e r s a y s n o d u ly c o n s ti t u te d m e e t in g o f t h e b o a r d
10

w a s h e ld r e g a r d i n g t h e s u b je c t m a tt e r w h e r e o f a s
s u c h a n y d e c is io n t a k e n i n t h is r e g a r d w i ll b e
c o n s i d e r e d in v a li d a n d s t a n d s t o b e s e t a s i d e . ”
I t h i n k a s p a r t o f r e s p o n d in g t o t h a t t h e n i t w a s t h e n – t h a t m e e ti n g w a s
u s e d a s a d u ly c o n s ti t u t e d m e e t i n g o f t h e b o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To t h e n j u s ti fy t h e d e c is i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To c a n c e l .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s b u t – b u t t h e – th e l e g a l o p i n i o n m a d e i t c l e a r

t h a t th e a w a r d t o L S G h a d b e e n l a w f u lly a n d p r o p e r ly b e e n g iv e n t o
L S G a n d t h e y – I h a v e n o t r e a d t h e w h o l e m e m o r a n d u m b u t i t lo o k s lik e
it is – t h e r e is a n e x t e n s i v e d i s c u s s i o n o f t h e p r o c e s s . Wa s th e r e n o t a
d is c u s s io n i n t h e b o a r d o f a l l t h e p o in ts b e i n g m a d e o r t h e m a in p o in ts
being made by the legal opinion?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir i f y o u a s k i n g t h a t th e r e w a s a

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
f o ll o w u p b o a r d m e e ti n g in r e s p e c t o f t h i s t o d is c u s s …
CHAIRPERSON: No, no I am saying by the time of the board meeting
o f 2 8 – is i t 2 8 a n d 2 9 S e p t e m b e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b y t h a t t i m e th e b o a r d m e m b e r s h a d r e c e iv e d t h e
le g a l o p in i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o n e a s s u m e s t h e y h a d r e a d i t a n d d ig e s t e d i t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is a c o r r e c t a s s u m p t i o n C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O n e w o u ld t h e n t h in k t h a t a t l e a s t th e r e w o u l d b e

q u i te s o m e d e li b e r a t i o n o f t h e is s u e b e fo r e t h e r e s o lu t io n w a s d e c i d e d
u p o n a n d m y q u e s ti o n i s w h e th e r t h e r e w a s s u c h d e l i b e r a ti o n a n d
c o n s i d e r a ti o n o f a l l is s u e s r e le v a n t to t h i s is s u e o r w a s i t – w a s j u s t th e
d e c is i o n t a k e n t h i s is w h a t w e w a n t t o d o a n d a r e s o l u ti o n w a s g iv e n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir I a m n o t a w a r e o f a n y

d e li b e r a t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I a m j u s t a w a r e a t t h e m e e t in g
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t th e n i t w a s s a i d th a t a

r e s o l u ti o n m u s t b e t a k e n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t t e n d e r m u s t b e n u l li fi e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u w e r e a t t e n d in g th e m e e t i n g – y o u a t t e n d e d

t h e m e e ti n g ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s a t t h e m e e t in g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , s o y o u a r e in a p o s i t io n to s a y th e r e w a s n o

c il io u s d e l ib e r a ti o n o f p o in t s r e la t in g t o t h e m a tt e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e p o i n ts w e r e a b o u t h o w th e

e x e c u tiv e d i d t h in g s o u t o f t h e ir c o n tr o l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d w i t h o u t t a k in g i n to a c c o u n t t h e
s u b s i d ia r i e s a n d – a n d a n d a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o th a t w a s j u s t a c o n c e r n a r o u n d
A ir C h e fs t h a t t h e y h a v e a n o b li g a t i o n t o A i r C h e fs a n d t h a t w a s t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s f a r a s I r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ms Mpshe – my

m ic r o p h o n e w a s o ff I a m s o r r y C h a ir. M s M p s h e i f I m a y r e f e r y o u t o
p a g e 1 3 8 o f t h e s a m e fi l e . D D 1 5 [ a ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON: !00 and?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 1 3 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : T h e r e is a n e m a i l o n t h a t p a g e a t th e –
m i d d l e – i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h a t p a g e t h e r e i s a n e m a i l t h a t is s e n t t o M s
K . is th a t Ms K is t h a t M s K u b u k a ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s f r o m M b a n a M e k a k e th a t h a s a n e x t r a c t
o f t h e b o a r d r e s o lu t io n o f t h e 2 8 t h w o u l d y o u p l e a s e j u s t r e a d w h a t th a t
e m a i l s a y s w a s r e s o lv e d b y t h e b o a r d o f d ir e c to r s o n t h e 2 8 t h
S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 5 ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
“ I t w a s r e s o lv e d th a t t h e S A A d o m e s t i c l o u n g e r s
r e n d e r a w a r d b e r e tr a c te d a n d t h e c a t e r i n g c o n tr a c t

10

b e a w a r d e d t o A i r C h e f s w it h o u t g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e
bidding process.”
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s .

A n d t h e n a f t e r t h i s r e s o l u ti o n th e n

w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e c o n tr a c t ? W a s i t c a n c e l le d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e c o n tr a c t w a s t h e n c a n c e ll e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l m e M s M p s h e w h a t w a s y o u r v i e w to a l l th is t h a t
w a s u n f o l d i n g b e fo r e y o u a s A c ti n g C E O a t S A A ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s a n ig h t m a r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W h a t v i e w d i d y o u t a k e o f t h is w h o le t h i n g t h a t w a s

e v o lv i n g b e f o r e y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It was a nightmare and my

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e r o l e w a s f o r th e C E O t o e n s u r e t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n
of

the

c o m p a n y ’s

s t r a t e g y.

And

th e

focus

was

not

on

the

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e s t r a t e g y. A n d th e b o a r d i s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e a n
o v e r s ig h t a n d t h e n a ls o m a n a g e a m e a s u r e o r g u i d e t h e C E O i n t e r m s

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o f t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e s tr a te g y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h a t w a s n o t t h e f o c u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W h a t w a s t h e f e e li n g o f y o u – o f o th e r M e m b e r s
o f t h e E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t a b o u t t h e s e t h i n g s h a p p e n in g ?

Yo u –

you have – you have been sharing with the Commission a number of
in s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e – th e B o a r d o r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o r M s K w i n a n a
w e r e g iv e n i n s t r u c t i o n s th a t s o a n d s o m u s t b e a p p o i n te d t o t h a t
p o s i ti o n .
10

S o a n d s o m u s t b e d i s c i p li n e d . S o a n d s o m u s t b e g iv e n t h a t
c o n tr a c t a n d n o t s o a n d s o .

W h a t w a s t h e e ffe c t o n t h e m a n a g e m e n t

le a d e r s h i p o f a ll o f th e s e th i n g s h a p p e n i n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir i t w a s a v e r y d i ff ic u l t ti m e

a n d – y o u k n o w – t h e E x c o M e m b e r s w e r e r e a l ly c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w h a t
w a s h a p p e n i n g – w e r e a l s o c o n c e r n e d f o r m e b e c a u s e a s th e Ac t in g
C E O in s t r u c ti o n w i ll c o m e t o m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d i t w a s l ik e s o w h a t n e e d s t o

h a p p e n a n d t h e m o r a le w a s v e r y lo w a t t h e ti m e …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Wh en

there

were

a ll

these

in s t r u c t i o n s h a p p e n i n g a n d i t w a s q u i te n e g a t iv e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

B e c a u s e i t w a s r e a ll y n o t w h a t w e

s h o u l d b e d o in g a s …

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e M e m b e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

As

I

s a id

we

need

to

be

i m p l e m e n ti n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e s t r a te g y o f t h e c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hu-uh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o t t o b e h id in g a n d p u s h b a c k a n d
10

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Refusing

u n la w f u l

i n s tr u c t i o n s .

T h e B o a r d i s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e a n o v e r s i g h t o n t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f
t h e s tr a t e g y o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n t h r o u g h t h e E x e c u t iv e a n d b e i n g t h e
E x e c u t iv e b e i n g th e A c t in g C E O w h o w i ll th e n h a v e th e C o m m i t t e e
r e p o r t in g . S o e a c h o n e o f u s h a d a r e s p o n s ib il i ty.
E a c h o n e o f u s h a d a p a r t t o p l a y i n th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e
s tr a t e g y a n d t h a t is r e a l ly w h a t n e e d e d to b e d o n e b u t h a l f th e ti m e w e
w e r e f o c u s e d o n t h e – t h e p u s h b a c k a n d r e s p o n d i n g t o th i n g s w h i c h
20

r e a l ly n o t h a d d ir e c t li n k to t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f th e – o f t h e s t r a t e g y
a n d a t t h e t i m e S A A w a s in a v e r y d i ff ic u l t p o s i ti o n .
Hence
i m p l e m e n ta t io n

there
of

was
th e

the

tu r n a r o u n d

turnaround

s tr a t e g y

s tr a t e g y

and

–

the
when

M r N ic o B e z u i d e n h o u t l e ft h e h a d s t a r t e d i m p l e m e n ti n g w h a t a t t h a t
ti m e w a s t e r m e d t h e 9 0 d a y t u r n a r o u n d . S o h e le f t b e f o r e c o m p l e ti n g

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t h e 9 0 d a y a n d I w a s c h a r g e to g e th e r w i t h t h e E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t te e t o
c o n c l u d e t h a t 9 0 d a y b u t h a l f t h e s t a ff w a s n o t l i n k e d – a li g n e d t o – t o
that.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

M s M p s h e h o w p r e v a le n t w a s th is p r a c tic e

o f h a v i n g B o a r d M e m b e r s i n te r f e r i n g w it h th e – th e c o n tr a c ts o r t h e
p e o p l e to b e a p p o in t e d ? H o w c o m m o n w a s it a t th e ti m e in g e n e r a l ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

P r i o r t o – t o m e b e c o m i n g A c t in g

C E O I – I w a s n o t a w a r e o f – o f th a t h a p p e n i n g w i t h o t h e r C E O s . I w a s
10

n e v e r – I w a s n o t p r i v y. I w a s n o t a t th a t l e v e l . I w a s n o t a w a r e b u t
li n k i n g to M s M z i m e l a ’s t e s ti m o n y w h e n s h e w a s o u tl in in g t h e r o l e o f
t h e B o a r d a n d – a n d t h e r o l e o f t h e E x e c u t iv e s a s I c o n c u r w it h t h e r o le
o f th e B o a r d b e e n h a v i n g o v e r s ig h t a n d t h e n t h e r o l e o f t h e E x e c u ti v e s
b e i n g i m p l e m e n t i n g a n d t h e s t r a t e g y i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d t h a t w a s
m y e x p e c t a ti o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d o n p a r a g r a p h 4 1 y o u w i t h w h a t

h a p p e n e d t o th e d e l e g a t io n o f a u th o r i ty f o r s o m e m e m b e r s o r E x c o
M e m b e r s a t S A A . W h a t b r o u g h t a b o u t t h i s – th is c h a n g e to d e l e g a ti o n
o f a u th o r i ty ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D id y o u s a y p a r a g r a p h 4 1 ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . P a r a g r a p h 4 1 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t i s a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

In

paragraph

41

when

I

had

in f o r m e d t h e C h a ir a n d s h e w a s c o m i n g b a c k a n d s a y i n g t h a t o n e o f t h e
r e a s o n s I s t a t e d w a s th is w a s j u s t c o m m o n c o u r t e s y a n d i t w a s w it h in
m y d e l e g a t io n o f a u t h o r i ty a n d i n – i n h e r a n g e r o v e r th a t s h e th e n a t
t h e m e e t in g o f t h e 2 8 t h a n d 2 9 S e p t e m b e r c a m e o u t w it h a n o t h e r – a
B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n t o s a y t h a t t h e d e l e g a t io n o f a u t h o r i t y fo r th e C E O
w i ll b e r e d u c e d b y 5 0 p e r c e n t – b y h a l f – a n d t h a t o f t h e E x e c u ti v e s
a ls o w i ll b e r e d u c e d b y – b y h a l f .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h a t w e r e th e i m p l ic a t i o n s o f th is ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e i m p lic a ti o n s w il l th e m m e a n

t h a t a s t h e d e le g a t i o n o f a u t h o r i t y o f t h e A c t in g D E O w a s 1 0 0 m il li o n a t
t h e ti m e o r t h e C E O w a s 1 0 0 m il li o n ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W ill m e a n th a t a n y t h i n g a b o v e 5 0 –
5 0 m i ll io n w i ll th e n h a v e to c o n f e r t o th e B o a r d …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d i t w i ll i m p l y n o w t h a t t h e B o a r d
w i ll h a v e to b e i n v o l v e d in t h e d a y t o d a y o p e r a ti o n s a n d t h e n a tu r e o f
tr a n s a c ti o n s o f a n a ir l in e e i t h e r it is a l e a s e o r it w il l b e a lo n g t h o s e .
20

Hence …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

The

quantum

of

th e

C E O ’s

d e l e g a ti o n w a s a t t h a t t i m e 1 0 0 m il li o n t o e n a b l e t h e C E O t o r u n t h e
business.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u .

O n t h e n e x t is s u e o r t h e n e x t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t o p ic th a t y o u d e a l w i th in y o u r – in y o u r a ffi d a v i t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 1 3
o f y o u r s t a te m e n t . T h e r e a d h o c fo r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t io n a p p o i n t m e n t f o r
w h a t y o u d e e m w a s fo r u l t e r i o r p u r p o s e s .

C o u ld y o u p l e a s e j u s t g iv e

us a general view on why do you have this opinion?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e b e f o r e t h a t le t u s c o n c l u d e t h e is s u e o f

t h e a w a r d t h a t w a s c a n c e ll e d .

S o L S G w a s to ld t h e a w a r d t h a t y o u

w e r e g iv e n is h e r e b y c a n c e l l e d o r w i t h d r a w n a n d t h e n y o u a w a r d e d it to
t h e S A A s u b s i d ia r y a n d w a s t h a t t h e e n d o f th a t m a t te r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir y e s w e h a d t o o n c e t h e – t h e
10

r e s o l u ti o n w a s – w a s is s u e d I th e n i n fo r me d th e C h ie f Pr o c u r e m e n t
O ff ic e r w h o o r d in a r ily w i ll b e li a i s i n g w i t h th e c o m p a n y t o th e n i n f o r m
t h e m t h a t t h e r e is a r e s o lu t io n o f t h e B o a r d t o – to t h e n n u ll if y o r
c a n c e l t h e – t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t h a d b e e n a w a r d e d a n d – a n d t h a t w a s
a ls o d o n e a s i n d ic a te d b y D r D a h w a i n h i s t e s ti m o n y o n F r i d a y.
H o w e v e r C h a ir I h a v e n o w s i n c e b e in g i n f o r me d t h a t L S G S k y
C h e fs is s u i n g S A A c u r r e n tl y - t h e c a s e i s o n c u r r e n t ly. M e a n i n g th a t
t h e r is k I h a d h i g h li g h te d h a s n o w m a t e r ia l is e d s o m a n y y e a r s l a t e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : F o r t h e s a m e c o n tr a c t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : F o r th e s a m e c o n tr a c t .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ; a n d i n th e m e a n t i m e – I m e a n – y o u s a i d th a t

p r i o r t o t h e c o n tr a c t – c a t e r i n g c o n t r a c t b e i n g g iv e n t o L S G t h e S A A
s u b s i d ia r y h a d i t b u t th e r e w e r e c o m p la i n t s o f p o o r s e r v ic e a n d s o o n .
Is t h a t r ig h t?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d i d I m is u n d e r s ta n d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e y d i d n o t
– t h e y d i d n o t g o o n a te n d e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s a s u b s i d i a r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d p r o v i d in g c a te r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i ls t p r o v i d i n g t h e s e r v ic e , y e s .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

They

were

a ls o

providing

the

s e r v ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e – t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e d b y t h e S A A s u b s i d ia r y
s e e m e d n o t t o b e s a ti s fy i n g t h e c u s t o m e r s . T h e r e w e r e c o m p l a i n ts ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s s u b s t a n d a r d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, it was substandard?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Do know whether after they were then now asked to

c o n ti n u e a f t e r t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f t h e a w a r d t o L S G d o y o u k n o w h o w
t h e ir s e r v ic e w a s li k e ? W a s t h e r e a n i m p r o v e m e n t f r o m w h a t h a d b e e n
the case before?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir,

we

–

we

did

r e c e iv e

c o m p li m e n ts fr o m o u r p r e m i u m c li e n t s t o s a y t h a t t h e – t h e lo u n g e
r e a l ly l o o k s b e a u t if u l a n d th e a m b i e n c e a n d d é c o r is l o o k in g g o o d b u t

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t h e f o o d i s s ti ll th e s a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e i r – th e ir s w a s o n t h e c a t e r i n g p a r t . Is i t n o t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s o n th e c a te r i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a te v e r

other

compliments

they

belonged

to

s o m e b o d y e ls e . Is it n o t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t b e l o n g e d t o I n v e s te c w h o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In v e s t e c ja .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h o w e p a r t n e r e d w i t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir …
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : F o r th e r e n o v a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir p a r t w a s p r o v i d i n g f o o d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e p a r t w a s c a te r i n g , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d i n r e g a r d t o th a t t h e r e w e r e s t il l c o m p l a in ts ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e w e r e s t il l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d – I a m s o r r y – d id t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d

M s K w i n a n a i n t h e ir d e t e r m i n a t io n t h a t t h e S A A s u b s i d i a r y s h o u l d b e
t h e o n e t o p r o v i d e th e s e r v ic e d i d th e y e v e r a d d r e s s t h e q u e s t io n o f
20

p o o r s e r v i c e ? D i d th e y s a y w h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e to m a k e s u r e t h a t
t h e s e r v i c e w a s b e t t e r th a n b e f o r e o r w a s t h a t n e v e r r a is e d b y t h e m
b e c a u s e y o u h a d s a i d t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n p r o b l e m s a b o u t th e i r s e r v i c e
a n d c li e n t s o r p a s s e n g e r s h a d c o m p l a i n e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Chair as far as I remember there

w a s n o f o c u s o n h o w c a n Ai r C h e fs to b e t t e r. T h e fo c u s w a s w e h a v e t o

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
r e s c u e A ir C h e f s .

W e h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i li ty a n d a n o b l i g a t io n t o a

s u b s i d ia r y o f S A A . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t it w a s e v e r d i s c u s s e d o n t h e
i m p r o v e m e n t o f t h e ir o ff e r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank you.

T h e n w e – le t m o v e o n t o t h e

n e x t t o p ic o n y o u r a ffi d a v it – t h e t o p ic o f a d h o c i n v e s ti g a ti o n s f o r
u l t e r i o r p u r p o s e s . C o u l d y o u p le a s e g iv e u s a g e n e r a l v ie w o n w h y d o
y o u h a v e t h i s v i e w o r th is o p i n i o n t h a t th e s e fo r e n s ic i n v e s t ig a t o r s w e r e
used for ulterior purposes?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s C h a ir.

W e ju s t t h e n b e c a m e

a w a r e o f f o r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a t i o n s a n d th e s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s w e r e d i r e c t e d
t o s o m e e m p l o y e e s w i th in t h e c o m p a n y m o s t ly a t E x e c u tiv e le v e l a n d
t h e y w o u l d b e a s k e d to – a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w h o w a s o n t h e p a n e l o f
S A A f o r s o m e o t h e r f a c i li t ie s w a s t h e n r e q u e s t e d t o c o n d u c t f o r e n s ic
in v e s t i g a t io n s .

S o it b e c a m e m o r e a n d m o r e a n o r m a t t h a t p o i n t i n

ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Who was asked by who?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W a s a s k e d b y t h e C h a ir o f th e

Board – Ms Myeni …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

To d o f o r e n s ic i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o n

certain employees
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W a s t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e B o a r d R e s o lu t io n s
t h a t th o s e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s b e o r th a t s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s h o u l d d o t h a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A l o t o f i t w a s th a t t h e S A A h a d a

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w h is t le b lo w e r s e r v i c e a n d – a n d t h e w h i s t le b l o w e r s e r v i c e w a s d o n e
b y D e l o i t t e a t t h e t i m e b u t t h e y w il l s e n d t h e in f o r m a t io n t o t h is p o r t a l
o f t h e w h i s tl e b l o w e r a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s r e s p o n s ib l e t h e r e w a s t h e
C h i e f A u d i t Ex e c u ti v e w h o t h e n w i ll r e p o r t t o th e C h a ir o f A u d i t R i s k
a n d C o m p l ia n c e .
S o M s K w i n a n a w a s t h e C h a ir o f A u d i t R i s k a n d C o m p li a n c e .
S o a ll t h i s w h is tl e b l o w i n g th i n g s c o m in g w i ll c o m e t h e r e t h r o u g h t o –
fr o m D e l o i t te t o – t o t h a t C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e – C h i e f A u d it E x e c u tiv e i n t o
M s K w i n a n a a n d t h e y w i ll m a k e a d e t e r m i n a t io n w h e th e r t h e r e is m e r i t
10

in t o t h e w h is t le b l o w e r b e i n g in v e s t i g a t e d o r n o t .

So that is how the

w h is t le b l o w i n g c a m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e f o r e n s i c i n v e s ti g a t i o n c a m e
a s a r e s u l t o f th is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In f o r m a ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n f o r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m th e w h is t le b l o w e r s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

D i d y o u h a v e s p e c i f ic fi r ms t h a t

f o r m e d a p a n e l o f – o f t h e s e f o r e n s i c i n v e s t ig a t o r s ? H o w d i d th e y g e t
appointed?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s C h a ir. T h e y – b e c a u s e S A A i s
s u c h a b i g o r g a n is a t i o n w e h a v e p a n e ls .

W e w il l h a v e a le g a l p a n e l .

W e w i ll h a v e l e g a l – a p a n e l o f fo r e n s ic i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

Page 98 of 307

W e w il l h a v e

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C o m m e r c i a l – le g a l fo r C o m m e r c i a l – a l e g a l p a n e l f o r C o m m e r c i a l . W e
w i ll h a v e a le g a l – a p a n e l fo r E m p l o y e e R e l a t i o n s o r E R o r L a b o u r
matters.
S o w e h a d d i ff e r e n t k in d s o f p a n e ls . S o w h e n e v e r th e m a t te r
w a s s p e c i fi c i f i t w a s a l a b o u r m a t t e r w e w il l th e n h a v e to g o t o t h e
le g a l – t h e E R p a n e l .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . S o f o r a n y f o r e n s i c in v e s ti g a t io n o n e
w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t t h e fir m s t h a t w e r e o n y o u r p a n e l f o r fo r e n s ic
in v e s t i g a t io n w o u l d b e a p p o i n t e d f o r s u c h ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

Yo u d e a l w i t h t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n th a t

w a s c o n d u c t e d b y E N S . Is it E d w a r d N a th a n S o n n e n b e r g s A t t o r n e y s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Were

ENS

part

of

your

forensic

in v e s t i g a t o r s ? W e r e t h e y o n - o n y o u r p a n e l f o r t h a t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
panel

for

th e

legal

fo r

the

A s fa r a s I k n o w E N S w a s o n t h e

l e g a l a s p e c ts

not

on

the

f o r e n s ic

in v e s t i g a t io n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
20

Ye s .

D o y o u k n o w h o w th e y g o t to b e

a p p o i n t e d t o d o t h i s p a r tic u la r i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t y o u m a d e a n e x a m p l e
o f i n t h i s ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . A s f a r a s I r e m e m b e r w a s t h a t
E N S w a s a p p o in t e d i n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f t h e p r e v i o u s C E O o n h is
m a t t e r s - r e l a ti n g t o h is m a t t e r s …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And - and subsequent to that they

w e r e j u s t t h e n a p p o in t e d a n d t h e s c o p e e x t e n d e d w i th o u t fo ll o w i n g d u e
p r o c e s s . T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f E N S .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t t h e y h a v e

c o n d u c t e d w h o w e r e th e y d ir e c t e d t o o r w h o w e r e th e y in v e s t i g a t in g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th e

–

the

fi r s t

one

was

in v e s t i g a t in g M r N ic o B e z u i d e n h o u t w h o i s t h e – m y p r e d e c e s s o r a n d
w h o w a s C E O o f M a n g o a n d it w a s a l s o t o l o o k a t – t h e r e w e r e
a l le g a ti o n s t h a t h e w a s f a v o u r in g M a n g o w i t h c o n tr a c ts t h a t th e y h a v e
10

had with SAA.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And

th e n

the

o th e r

one

was

M r W o l f M e y e r a n d h e w a s i n v e s t ig a t e d . T h e r e w e r e tw o in v e s ti g a t io n s .
O n e , o n a n y f in a n c ia l i m p r o p r ie t ie s th a t c o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d a n d a ls o
o n t h e f a c t t h a t h e a ll e g e d l y c a r r i e d a – a r e c o r d i n g d e v i c e i n th e fo r m
o f a p e n to a m e e ti n g w it h t h e C h a ir a n d M r Sy lv a i n B o s c w a s a l s o
a s k e d t o b e i n v e s t ig a t e d .

A ls o h i s – h is m a t t e r c a m e th r o u g h th e

w h is t le b l o w e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h o w a s r e s p o n s i b l e fo r e x te n d i n g
20

t h e s c o p e o f t h e s e f o r e n s ic – o f t h e s e f o r e n s i c i n v e s ti g a ti o n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It

was

Ms

–

M s My e n i

and

M s K w i n a n a . T h e y w e r e t h e tw o w h o w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e m o s t ly.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d o n p a r a g r a p h 4 6 y o u d e a l w i t h t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n th a t w a s c o n d u c te d f o r M r B o s c a n d th e d is c i p l in a r y
p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o ll o w e d .

C o u ld y o u p l e a s e b r i e fl y te ll u s w h a t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
h a p p e n e d i n a s f a r a s th a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n is c o n c e r n e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And

i n v e s t ig a ti o n

on

M r Sy lv a i n B o s c ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e r e w a s a w h is t le b l o w e r r e p o r t

t h a t c a m e . N o w t h e p e c u l i a r i ty o f t h i s p a r ti c u l a r w h is t le b lo w e r w a s i t
e m a n a t e d fr o m a n e m a i l fr o m M s K w i n a n a w h o t h e n o u tl i n e d w h a t t h e
w h is t le b l o w e r is to th e C h ie f A u d it E x e c u ti v e . S o Ms K w i n a n a w h o i s
t h e C h a ir o f A u d it R i s k a n d C o m p l i a n c e w r i t e s a n e m a i l t o t h e C h i e f
10

A u d i t E x e c u tiv e t o s a y I h a v e t h is w h is t le b l o w e r a n d t h i s i s w h a t i t i s
a l l a b o u t i n r e l a ti o n t o M r S y lv a i n B o s c .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o i t d id n o t c o m e v i a – s o r r y - th e p o r t a l –
the …?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : It d i d n o t g o th r o u g h t h e p o r t a l. It
w a s a n e m a i l f r o m M s K w i n a n a t o th e C h i e f A u d i t E x e c u tiv e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d – w h a t w e r e

t h e fi n d i n g s … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m – I a m s o r r y. Wa s Ms K w in a n a fo r p u r p o s e s o f
t h is c o m p l a i n t t h e w h i s tl e b lo w e r ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir s h e is t h e o n e w h o w r o t e t h e
c o n te n ts o f t h e w h i s t l e b l o w in g i n a n e m a il t o t h e C h i e f A u d i t E x e c u ti v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u s a y i n g s h e g o t t h is in f o r m a t io n fr o m w h e r e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Fr o m a w h is tl e b l o w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m a w h i s tl e b lo w e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o w h is tl e b l o w e r w o u ld h a v e s p o k e n t o h e r a n d
n o t u s e d t h e n o r m a l w h i s tl e b l o w i n g …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o c e s s e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s h e d id n o t d ir e c t t h is b l o w e r t o u s e t h e

w h is t le b l o w i n g p r o c e s s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank you.

M s M p s h e t h e N o n - E x e c u tiv e

B o a r d M e m b e r s lik e Ms K w i n a n a , M s M y e n i d i d t h e y h a v e o ffic e s a t –
w e r e t h e y s t a t i o n e d a t – a t S A A ? W e r e t h e y th e r e fu ll t i m e l ik e y o u r s e l f
and other employees?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O r d i n a r i ly N o n - E x e c u t iv e B o a r d

M e m b e r s a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e f u l l t i m e a t t h e c o m p a n y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e C h a ir h a d t h e o ff ic e a s t h e

C h a ir – o ffi c e o f t h e C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It

was

p u r e ly

when

she

had

m e e ti n g s o n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r B o a r d M e e t in g s b u t t h e y w e r e n o t
s u p p o s e d to b e a t th e c o m p a n y a ll t h e ti m e b u t d u r i n g t h i s t i m e th e y
w e r e t h e r e v e r y r e g u l a r ly.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d h o w a c c e s s i b le is S A A i n t e r m s o f
– h o w w o u l d t h e y b e – h o w a c c e s s i b l e w e r e th e y w h e n th e y w e r e i n

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t h o s e o ff ic e s ?

I s it p o s s i b l e f o r s o m e o n e t o j u s t w a lk in a n d m a k e a

r e p o r t t o – t o a p e r s o n lik e M s K w in a n a a s i t h a p p e n e d in t h i s
in s t a n c e ? H o w is th a t p o s s i b l e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t i s p r a c t ic a ll y i m p o s s i b le C h a ir t o
g e t i n t o S A A . A n y o n e w h o h a s tr ie d t o g o in t o – i n t o S A A y o u h a v e t o
g o t o t h e g a t e . T h e r e is s e c u r i ty o u ts id e a n d y o u h a v e to b e c h e c k e d
a n d y o u h a v e t o h a d p a r k i n g o r a r r a n g e m e n ts d o n e o r m e e t in g
s o m e o n e . Yo u w o u ld n o t ju s t g o i n to S A A a n d r o c k u p a t th e r e c e p t i o n .
I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n – y o u w ill h a v e b e e n – i t h a d t o b e
10

a r r a n g e d f o r a n y o n e t o – t o c o m e th r o u g h a n d – a n d s t a t e d t h e p e r s o n
w h o t h e y a r e s e e i n g a n d w h e n t h e y a r r iv e a t t h e m a in r e c e p ti o n a n d
then

they

w i ll

th e n

say

the

v is i to r

or

Ms Mpshe

your

v is it o r

M s B u th e l e z i h a s a r r i v e d a n d t h e n y o u w i ll h a v e t o e s c o r t t h e p e r s o n
in t o t h e b u il d i n g .
S o it w a s n o t t h a t – y o u c a n n o t j u s t w a lk in in t o – i n to S A A .
S o t h e p o i n t i s f o r s o m e b o d y t o w a lk i n a n d – a n d m e e t w it h t h e C h a ir
o f A u d it R is k a n d C o m p li a n c e a n d t h e n r e l a t e i n S A A i t is - it is
i m p o s s i b le .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . W i th r e g a r d s t o th is p a r tic u l a r
20

in v e s t i g a t io n o f M r B o s c w h a t w e r e t h e f in d i n g s a n d h o w t h o s e f i n d in g s
r e c e i v e d b y th e B o a r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e t h e fi n d i n g s y o u t o l d u s M s K w i n a n a s e n t th is
e m a i l to t h e C h a ir – t o th e …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A u d i t C h i e f E x e c u tiv e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A u d i t C h i e f E x e c u tiv e a n d – a n d t h e n w h a t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h a t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h a t w a s
t h a t I w a s a l r e a d y b a c k i n my r o le a s G e n e r a l M a n a g e r H u m a n
R e s o u r c e s a n d a n in s t r u c t i o n w a s i s s u e d t o M r M u s a Zw a n e t o s u s p e n d
M r Sy lv a i n B o s c o n t h e b a s is o f t h e w h i s t l e b l o w e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh you had ceased to act as CEO?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : B y t h e ti m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B y t h e ti m e t h is c o m p l a i n t – if y o u w a n t to c a ll i t t h a t
– was being – was to be acted upon?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And

your

successor

as

A c t in g

CEO

was

M r M u s a Zw a n e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t I t h in k b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e .

There is

s o m e t h i n g t h a t is r e le v a n t to y o u r c e a s in g t o a c t t h a t y o u n e e d t o te ll
u s . Yo u r e m e m b e r th a t Ms B u t h e l e z i fr o m t h e a ffi d a v i t ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e w il l g e t t h e r e
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : L a te r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B u t le t u s fi n i s h t h is … .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th is is s u e o f M r B o s c .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

W h a t w e r e t h e fi n d i n g s o f t h is p a r ti c u l a r

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d h o w w a s t h a t n e w s r e c e i v e d b y t h e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Yo u k n o w t h e r e w a s a lo t o f

in v e s t i g a t io n – ( in d is ti n c t .) i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

Th e r e w a s a d is c i p li n a r y

h e a r in g h e l d f o r – f o r M r B o s c a n d i t w a s c o n d u c t e d b y e x t e r n a l p e o p le .
I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e a b o u t th r e e a d v o c a t e s w h o w e r e r u n n in g t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
external

advocate

being

th e

W i t h E N S a s w e l l.

P r e s id in g

O ff ic e r.

There was an
ENS

was

the

d is c i p l i n a r y o ff ic e r a n d t h e r e w a s a n o th e r a d v o c a t e . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
the name.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. L o o k s lik e t h e r e i s s o m e – t h e r e i s s o m e
…
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : N o i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e s o u n d s t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . T h e o ff ic e r i s c h e c k i n g o n i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , l e t th e m c h e c k . O k a y. Pl e a s e c o n t in u e . T h e r e –
20

t h e r e w a s a n e x t e r n a l a d v o c a t e w h o w a s c h a ir i n g t h e d is c ip li n a r y
in q u ir y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d E N S w e r e s o t o s p e a k t h e p r o s e c u to r s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s

in v e s t i g a t io n .

Page 105 of 307

because

th e y

did

the

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e y h a d d o n e t h e in v e s ti g a t io n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d fi n a l – a n d M s K w i n a n a w a s a
witness.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d w h a t w a s t h e a ll e g a t i o n a g a i n s t M s –

Mr Bosc?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e a l le g a ti o n s f o r M r B o s c w a s

t h a t h e m is r e p r e s e n t e d t h e p r o f i ta b i li t y a n d t h e v ia b il it y o f t h e
10

J o h a n n e s b u r g / E t ih a d R o u te w i t h E ti h a d A ir w a y s .

I th i n k th a t w a s t h e

m a in – th e r e w e r e a l o t o f o t h e r a ll e g a t io n s o n – o n t h e o r ig in a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o m p l a i n t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A ll e g a t io n b u t th e m a in o n e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h is w a s t h e m a i n o n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s

th e

m a in

one

was

the

m is r e p r e s e n t in g t h e c o m m e r c ia l v ia b i li ty o f th e E t ih a d R o u te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W h ic h w a s a C o d e S h a r e w i t h

S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e – t h e o u tc o m e is th a t h e

was cleared on – on all charges.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d h e o r d i n a r il y t h e n h e w o u l d b e
– o n c e y o u a r e c le a r e d o f t h e c h a r g e s t h e n h e w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n . Th e
s u s p e n s i o n w o u l d b e u p l i f te d a n d h e w i ll c o n ti n u e t o w o r k . T h e o t h e r
p e c u li a r i ty a b o u t t h is w a s th a t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u s a i d e a r li e r M s K w in a n a w a s a w i tn e s s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e w a s – s h e w a s a w it n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r h e r – h e r e v i d e n c e w a s li m i t e d
10

t o s a y i n g a w h i s tl e b lo w e r h a d g i v e n h e r i n fo r m a t i o n a n d s h e h a d
w r i t t e n a n e m a i l t o th e C h a ir – t h e E x e c u t i v e w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o d e a l
w i t h i t o r d id it g o b e y o n d t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

The

fo c u s

was

o n ly

on

th e

m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O f M r B o s c o n t h e C o m m e r c ia l

a v a i la b ili t y o f th e E t ih a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : R o u t e …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d w h e n s h e w e n t a n d n o w t h is

w a s r e l a t e d t o m e b y Mr B o s c th a t Ms K w i n a n a w e n t t h e r e w e a r i n g a
s c a r f o f - o f t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n fl a g a n d – a n d in d ic a t e d t h a t M s –
M r B o s c is – s h o u l d b e fo u n d g u i l ty o n t h e c h a r g e a n d t h e P r e s i d in g
O ff ic e r d i d a s k – a p p a r e n t ly a s k e d t o s a y t h a t i f h e is n o t f o u n d g u i lt y

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
w h a t w i ll t h e r e s p o n s e o f t h e c o m p a n y b e a n d t h e n s h e s a i d w e w il l fi n d
s o m e t h i n g e ls e t o g e t r id o f h i m a n d th e ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is

–

this

was

r e l a te d

to

you

by

Mr Bosc

( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h is w a s r e l a t e d t o m e b y Mr B o s c
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

A f t e r t h e d is c i p l in a r y – w e ll w e

w e r e in t o u c h o n a d a il y b a s is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s t o d a i ly w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir I m a y – m a y – m a y I p la c e o n r e c o r d
t h a t M r B o s c i s s ti ll g o i n g t o b e c a l le d a s o n e o f o u r w i t n e s s e s l a t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e . T h a t is …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t – w h a t s h e i s s a y in g i s t h a t I s h o u ld n o t
b e c o n c e r n e d if y o u a r e …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Te l li n g m e w h a t M r B o s c s a i d b e c a u s e i t w ill b e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
c o n fir m e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t to s a y d o n o t s a y it .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is to s a y i t w il l b e c o n f ir m e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o M r B o s c w a s c l e a r e d o f a ll th e

d is c i p l i n a r y c h a r g e s a n d t h e c o m p a n y r e f u s e d t o a c c e p t t h e f in d i n g a n d
they refused …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o m p a n y o r th e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e – M r M u s a Zw a n e s a id …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S a id – g a v e a n in s t r u c t i o n t h a t th e
– th e s u s p e n s i o n s h o u ld n o t b e u p li f t e d a n d h e s h o u l d n o t c o m e b a c k t o
work.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

20

S o h e s ta y e d a t h o m e a n d I th i n k

about 16 months he was at home.
CHAIRPERSON: 60?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 1 6 – 1 - .
CHAIRPERSON: 1-6?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s h e w a s a t h o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o v e r – j u s t u n d e r …

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 1 - 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: One and a half years?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t is i n c l u d i n g b e f o r e th e h e a r in g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t w a s i n c l u d in g , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u k n o w h o w m u c h o f t h a t f e l l o u ts i d e a f t e r
the – after he had been cleared?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I think it was longer than six or

seven months …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A f t e r t h e h e a r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I s ti ll r e m e m b e r i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t a k e i t h e w a s b e in g p a id w h i le a t h o m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o m e b o d y e ls e w a s a c ti n g i n h is p o s i ti o n o r … ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay and then what happened?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

20

I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r w e s h o u l d

g e t in t o Mr B o s c …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I j u s t w a n t th e - u l t i m a te ly h o w t h e – th e m a t t e r
r e l a ti n g t o M r B o s c w a s fi n a li s e d . H e …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Z w a n e s a i d th e C h a ir p e r s o n …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s th e C h a i r – y e s t h e C h a ir s a i d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
h e s h o u l d n o t b e r e i n s t a te d .

They do not want him back at the

c o m p a n y a n d th e n in th e f in a l a n a ly s is o u t o f d e s p e r a t io n h e ju s t s a i d
t h e y d i d n o t w a n t t o d o a m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n w i t h h i m .

Mr B o s c is a

Fr e n c h N a t io n a l a n d d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f t h is h e a r i n g h e h a d to g o
h o m e t o g e t m o n e y fo r h i s l e g a l f e e s fr o m h is c o ffe r s t h a t h e h a d a t
h o m e i n Fr a n c e – i n P a r is .

S o th e fi n a l a n a ly s is t h e t h e n li t e r a ll y

b e g g i n g t h e m t o s a y l o o k if y o u c a n j u s t p a y my l e g a l f e e s I w il l w a lk
a w a y b e c a u s e th e y r e f u s e d t o – t o d o a m u tu a l s e p a r a ti o n w i t h h i m a n d
t h e n th a t i s h o w h e fi n a l ly l e f t S A A .
10

E v e n t h e n th e y r e f u s e d t o

t e r m in a t e a s p a y h i s le g a l fe e s . Th e y th e n t e r m e d th e e x a c t c o s t o f th e
le g a l fe e s a s a m u tu a l s e p a r a ti o n f ig u r e a n d t h a t is h o w h e le f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u k n o w if t h e y s i g n e d w h a t th e y m a y h a v e
c a l l e d a s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e y – th e y h a d – th e y w o u ld h a v e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H m ; b u t o n e h e h a d b e e n c l e a r e d i n a d i s c i p li n a r y

in q u ir y c h a ir e d b y a n e x t e r n a l C h a ir p e r s o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t fr o m w h a t M r Zw a n e t o ld y o u t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f
t h e B o a r d h a d in s tr u c te d h i m - t h a t is Mr Z w a n e - i s t h a t h e s h o u l d n o t
20

li f t th e s u s p e n s io n – M r B o s c ’s s u s p e n s i o n a n d s a id t h a t t h e c o m p a n y
d i d n o t w a n t Mr B o s c b a c k ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n u l ti m a t e ly – a n d Mr B o s c s t a y e d a t h o m e f o r
a n u m b e r o f m o n th s t h e r e a f te r b e f o r e h e t h e n r e a c h e d s o m e a g r e e m e n t
with them?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir b e f o r e I m o v e t o

t h e n e x t t o p ic I s e e i t is n o w 1 o ’ c l o c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

O r m a y b e b e f o r e w e – b e f o r e w e g e t th a t .

Did you

e v e r g e t t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t it is t h a t M r B o s c m a y h a v e d o n e t h a t
made the company or the Board not want him back other than what he
was cleared for?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

C h a ir i t – i t is – it is j u s t o n e o f

t h o s e t h a t M r B o s c w o u l d n o t j u s t a c c e p t a n u n la w f u l i n s tr u c t io n a n d h e
w o u ld – y o u k n o w – p u t t h e p o l ic ie s o f t h e – o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d lo o k a t
t h e i n t e r e s t o f th e c o m p a n y. O n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I a m a w a r e t h a t h e
w a s a s k e d t o d o t h a t i s to r e v e r t b a c k t o t h e D u r b a n / C a p e To w n R o u t e
t h a t S A A m u s t f ly – S A A m u s t f ly b e t w e e n D u r b a n a n d C a p e To w n a n d
M s My e n i s a i d t h a t t h e – t h e M e m b e r s o f P a r li a m e n t fr o m D u r b a n
c o m p la i n e d th e y d o n o t w a n t to f ly M a n g o b e c a u s e a d e c is i o n w a s
t a k e n lo n g – lo n g b e fo r e M r B o s c c a m e t h a t i t w a s n o t p r o fi t a b l e .
S o M a n g o a s a l o w c o s t a ir l i n e w a s t h e o n e th a t w a s r u n n in g
D u r b a n /C a p e To w n a n d t h e n Ms M y e n i s a y s t h a t th e P a r l i a m e n t a r ia n s

20

a r e c o m p la in i n g t h a t t h e y d o n o t lik e M a n g o a s a l o w c o s t c o m p a n y. I t
d o e s n o t f it w it h th e ir i m a g e . A s a r e s u l t o f th a t t h e y w e r e fl y i n g B A .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I j u s t w a n t t o s a y o n a li g h t e r n o t e I a m fr o m

Durban.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir a C o m m e r c ia l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C o m m e r c ia l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C o m m e r c ia l d e c is io n w a s d o n e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

L o n g b e f o r e M r B o s c s ta r t e d a t

SAA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o i t w a s th e n s a id t h a t C h a ir w a s
s a y in g e v e n h e r s e l f s h e is fly i n g B A b e t w e e n D u r b a n a n d C a p e To w n
10

b e c a u s e i t h a s n o t g o t b u s in e s s c la s s . M a n g o is a lo w c o s t a ir l i n e w i th
n o b u s in e s s c l a s s .

S o s h e g a v e a n i n s t r u c t io n to M r B o s c t h a t I a m

aware of that we should - we should returned to that route and move
M a n g o o u t o f t h e r o u t e a n d Mr B o s c w e n t a n d d i d a b u s i n e s s c a s e
a g a in .
W e ll r e fe r r e d t o th e o r i g i n a l d is c u s s i o n – d i d a b u s i n e s s c a s e
a n d c a m e b a c k a n d i n fo r m e d C h a ir t h a t t h a t r o u t e i t i s s til l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t v ia b le ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is n o t v i a b l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is o n e o f t h e m a tt e r s t h a t I a m
a w a r e o f . T h e o t h e r m a t te r w a s i n s i s ti n g t h a t w e s h o u ld a p p ly t o f ly to
S o u th S u d a n a n d – a n d s a y in g th a t i t is – i t c a m e fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t
t h a t w e n e e d e d t o f ly t o S o u t h S u d a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w th is w a s a n i n s tr u c t i o n fr o m …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e C h a ir p e r s o n …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A g a in …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To M r B o s c ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say there should be a new route?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o M r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A g a i n t h i s is s o m e t h in g t h a t M r B o s c h t o l d y o u o r it is
something …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s s a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u b e c a m e a w a r e o f a s w e l l?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

I t w a s d is c u s s e d p u b l ic a l ly

e v e n d i s c u s s e d i n a n E x c o M e e t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o h e a ls o – I a m s h a r i n g w i th y o u
what I am aware that was asked of him that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o i t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t . It is i m p o r t a n t.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e d id n o t d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e t h e n d id t h e w h o l e t h i n g l ik e i n

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
Commercial.

I n a n a ir l i n e i n C o m m e r c i a l y o u h a v e t o d o t h e v i a b il i ty

a n d y o u h a v e t o d o a l l t h in g s a n d d o y o u r b u s i n e s s c a s e a n d a l s o t h e –
b e f o r e e v e n t h a t y o u h a v e t o d o t h e – b e f o r e y o u e v e n a p p ly t o in t e r m s
o f t h e P F M A S e c ti o n 5 4 t o a p p ly t o t h e s h a r e h o l d e r a r e p r e s e n ta t iv e .
S o t h e y d id t h e w o r k a n d i n d o i n g t h e w o r k o n e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t t h e y
had to do was to assess risk as – as South Sudan was at war and
a s s e s s t h e r i s k w i t h s e c u r i t y a n d w i th l e g a l.

L o o k a t a l l th e o th e r

s t a k e h o ld e r s t h a t – a n d g iv e i n p u t in t o a b u s i n e s s c a s e t h a t w ill t h e n
s u p p o r t w h e t h e r t h e r o u te c a n b e e m b a r k e d o n o r n o t e m b a r k e d o n a n d
10

I r e m e m b e r t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t i n v e s t i g a t io n o f t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e
c a m e o u t to s a y t h a t i t i s i n t e r m s o f s e c u r i t y d a n g e r o u s t o f ly i n t o
S o u th S u d a n a s p a r t o f a w a r z o n e .

T h e a ir s p a c e is c l o s e d f o r

c o m m e r c ia l a ir l i n e s i n t o – in t o S o u t h S u d a n a n d a ls o th e l e g a l o p in io n
t h a t a l s o c a m e w a s th a t i f w e – w e w e r e t o i n s is t to f ly t h e r e o u r
a ir c r a f t w o u ld n o t b e i n s u r e d b e c a u s e it is p a r t o f …
CHAIRPERSON: A war zone?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A w a r z o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o i n t h e e n d I r e m e m b e r w h e n h e
20

p r e s e n t e d t o Ex c o w e t h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Mr B o s c ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M s B o s c …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P r e s e n te d to E x c o . A f t e r t h e l e g a l
o p i n i o n a n d a ll o t h e r th i n g s t h e r i s k a s s e s s m e n ts w e r e d o n e t h e r is k

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p e o p l e a n d t h e s e c u r i t y p e o p l e a ls o g a v e th e ir i n p u t t h a t i t w i ll b e
d a n g e r o u s t o fl y t h e r e a n d th e n i t w a s d is c u s s e d a n d s a y t h a t i t – i t i s
n o t v i a b le a n d t h e n t h e C h a ir w a s s ti ll i n s is ti n g - I t h i n k M r B o s c m u s t
e l a b o r a t e – o n i n s i s ti n g t o s a y th a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t w il l – w i ll s u b s id e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

But then what was the – out – out

o f i t w a s t h a t w e c a n n o t u s e o u r a ir c r a f t b e c a u s e t h e n w e w o u l d n o t b e
in s u r e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : ( I n d i s ti n c t) .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is fiv e p a s t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e w il l t a k e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t n o w. I t i s
fi v e p a s t o n e . W e w i ll r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t t w o . W e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t’s p r o c e e d .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s M p s h e , c a n w e m o v e
t o t h e n e x t t o p i c o n y o u r a ffi d a v i t . W e a r e n o w o n p a g e 1 5 . Yo u d e a l
w i t h t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f B o q w a n a B u r n s . T h is B o q w a n a B u r n s , w a s o n e
o f y o u r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s ? W e r e t h e y i n a n y o f y o u r p a n e l?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir, B o q w a n a B u r n s w a s n o t i n ,

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w a s n o t o n e o f o u r s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r s ; w a s n o t i n a n y o f th e p a n e ls t h a t
w e w ill h a v e h a d e i th e r fo r l e g a l f o r e n s i c o r l a b o u r o r c o m m e r c ia l .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry before that. Did you cover the part that

r e l a t e s t o M r M e y e r b e i n g in v e s t i g a t e d r e g a r d in g a r e c o r d i n g d e v ic e ? I
s e e i t ’s o n p a g e 1 4 o f t h e s t a t e m e n t . C a n y o u s e e it ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a r a g r a p h 4 5 . 2 , d i d I m is s it ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , C h a i r I b e li e v e t h e w i tn e s s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u c o v e r i t M s M p s h e t h a t p a r t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o , C h a ir b u t I t h in k w e a r e

c o v e r in g th e d is c i p l i n e o f o t h e r e x e c u t iv e s la t e r o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u a r e o n p a g e 1 5 w h ic h d e a ls w i th

Boqwana Burns.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is o n e i s o n 1 4 .

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d o e s n ’ t lo o k l ik e y o u h a v e m u c h to s a y. M a y b e y o u
can just.
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Say

s o m e th in g

about

it

in v e s t i g a t e d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O h M r M e y e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M e y e r, y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .

Page 117 of 307

Mr

Hofmeyer

being

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything about that one?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir, a b o u t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n
o n M r M e y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t h e h a d a r e c o r d i n g d e v i c e i n a
m e e ti n g w i th t h e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s . L a t e r o n w h e n w e c o v e r t h e

d is c i p l i n a r y o f o th e r e x e c u tiv e m e m b e r s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e m a tt e r is c o v e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o y o u m i g h t h a v e c o m e i n t o a w r o n g p l a c e
here?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , i t ’s s t il l g o i n g t o c o m e l a t e r o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , th a n k y o u , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

20

W e k n o w a t p a g e 1 5 . W e a r e d e a li n g w i t h

B o q w a n a B u r n s . Yo u h a v e s a i d t h e y w e r e n o t i n a n y o f y o u r p a n e ls a n d
h o w – w h e n d i d y o u g e t t o h e a r a b o u t B o q w a n a B u r n s fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I g o t t o h e a r a b o u t B o q w a n a B u r n s
f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e w h e n I r e c e i v e d a n e m a i l w it h a n a t t a c h m e n t o f a n
award; award of a tender to, that I needed to sign to, for Boqwana
B u r n s . T h e e m a i l c a m e fr o m M s K w in a n a a n d s a y i n g , p l e a s e fi n d t h is

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le t t e r o f a w a r d fo r y o u r s i g n a t u r e . S o … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I s t h a t t h e e m a i l th a t is o n p a g e – i f I c a n
r e fe r y o u t o t a b 2 1 , C h a ir o n p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t le t h e r f in is h .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . P a g e 2 1 f r o m p a g e 1 6 6 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B u t p r o c e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , I r e c e iv e d th e n a n e m a i l w it h
10

in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t I n e e d e d t o s i g n t h e a t t a c h m e n t a n d w h e n I o p e n e d th e
a tt a c h m e n t I r e a d t h r o u g h t h e a t t a c h m e n t a n d I r e a l iz e d th a t t h is is a n
a w a r d o f a te n d e r. A n d th e n b e c a u s e i t d e ta ils a b o u t w h a t is g o i n g to
d o , w h a t t h e p a y m e n ts a r e a n d a l s o t h e r e w a s a p r e p a y m e n t to t h a t
e ffe c t. S o o n r e c e i p t o f t h i s , t h e n I t h e n w e n t t o t h e h e a d o f le g a l , M s
Fi k i le T h a b e t h e a t t h e ti m e a n d I s a id to h e r, d o y o u k n o w t h i s c o m p a n y
B o q w a n a B u r n s ? A r e th e y in y o u r p a n e l o f a n y s o r t? S h e t h e n s a id n o ,
t h e y a r e n o t i n o u r p a n e l. A n d th e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e t h e y a la w fir m ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is a l a w f ir m .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t is s t il l a n e x i s t i n g l a w f ir m I

t h i n k . A n d t h e n I t h e n a s k th e c h i e f a u d it e x e c u tiv e a n d s a id t o h i m , is
B o q w a n a B u r n s in t h e p a n e l o f f o r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t o r s . H e th e n s a y s
h e ’s n e v e r h e a r d o f t h e m . H e ’s n o t i n t h e p a n e l . A n d t h e n I w e n t t o th e
c h i e f p r o c u r e m e n t o ff ic e r, D o c t o r D a h w a a n d I s a i d , w a s t h e r e a t e n d e r

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in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h n o w t h is B o q w a n a B u r n s h a s b e e n a w a r d e d w h ic h I
n o w b e i n g a s k e d t o s ig n ? A n d th e n D o c t o r D a h w a s a id , n o t h e r e h a s
n o t b e e n a n y t e n d e r i n t h a t r e s p e c t a n d B o q w a n a B u r n s is n o t e v e n a
lis t o f o u r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s . A n d I t h e n h a d t o r e s p o n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Did that mean you had exhausted all your possible

panels?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I h a d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A l l th e in t e r n a l p r o c e s s o w n e r s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t h e o r g a n i z a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : L e g a l a u d it a n d C P O p r o c u r e m e n t . I
t h e n e x h a u s t e d th a t a n d o n t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n I t h e n w r o te a le t t e r b a c k
t o M s K w in a n a to s a y t h a t I a m n o t i n a p o s i ti o n to s ig n t h a t a w a r d a s I
h a v e w e n t t h r o u g h i n t h e c o m p a n y t o c h e c k th r o u g h d i ff e r e n t a r e a s a s
t o w h e t h e r t h e y a r e a w a r e o f th is a n d n o n e o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t I h a v e
c o n ta c t e d a r e a w a r e o f t h i s B o q w a n a B u r n s . S o i t i s t h a t t h e B o q w a n a
B u r n s is ir r e g u l a r. T h e r e is n o p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s f o l lo w e d , t h e y a r e

20

n o t i n o u r p a n e l , t h e y a r e n o t i n t h e f o r e n s ic , t h e y a r e n o t in th e l e g a l,
t h e y a r e n o t i n a n y o t h e r p a n e l . A n d M s K w i n a n a s a id t o m e , j u s t f o l lo w
t h e s a m e p r o c e s s o f e n g a g i n g th e m l ik e i t w a s f o l lo w e d w i t h E N S . A n d I
in d i c a t e d to h e r t h a t I a lr e a d y e v e n i n i t ia lly c h e c k e d h o w E N S w a s
e n g a g e d a n d th e e x t e n t o f th e s c o p e t h a t ’s b e e n ; th e s c o p e t h a t ’s b e e n
e x t e n d e d f o r E N S is a ls o ir r e g u l a r b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n o t a p p o in t e d f o r

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
that. ENS was appoi – is on our legal panel but not on the forensic
p a n e l . S o I t h e n i n f o r m e d h e r t h a t th is is a ls o i ll e g a l e v e n th e E N S t h a t
s h e ’s m a k i n g r e f e r e n c e t o i s a ls o il l e g a l . S h e t h e n c a m e b a c k t o m e
a n d s a i d , w e l l w e h a v e to c h e c k b e c a u s e E N S h a s d o n e s ix o t h e r
tr a n s a c ti o n s a s fa r a s s h e w a s c o n c e r n e d . S o w e h a v e t o f in d o u t h o w
w e r e g u l a r i z e it if I ’ m s a y in g i t ’s i ll e g a l . S o t h e n t h e r e w a s a d is c u s s io n
w i t h le g a l . L e g a l s a i d it i s p r o v i d e d f o r i n t h e s u p p ly c h a i n p o l ic y t h a t i n
c a s e o f e m e r g e n c y th e b o a r d h a s g o t a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o t h e n u s e th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D is c r e ti o n ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e d i s c r e t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t h a t . A n d th e n s h e t h e n a d v is e d
t h a t i n t h e c a s e o f a l l t h e o t h e r i n c i d e n c e s fo r E N S th a t w e r e r e f e r r e d
t o , t h e s ix th a t w e r e r e f e r r e d t o s a i d d o n e t h e n w e h a v e t o f o l l o w a
p r o c e s s c a l l e d c o n d o n a t i o n o n t h o s e tr a n s a c t io n s . M e a n i n g t h a t t h e r e
w a s a n a c k n o w l e d g m e n t fr o m M s K w i n a n a th a t th e y h a v e u s e d E N S
w i t h o u t f o l lo w in g d u e p r o c e s s . S o t h e n t h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e t h a t i t w i ll
b e b u t t h e n I t h e n i n d ic a te d t o M s K w i n a n a t h a t I ’ m n o t i n t h e p o s i ti o n
t o s i g n t h a t a w a r d k n o w i n g t h a t i t ’s ir r e g u la r. I t d i d n ’ t f o ll o w d u e

20

process.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , C h a ir, f o r y o u r r e f e r e n c e , th e s a id

le t t e r o f e n g a g e m e n t th a t is r e f e r r e d t o b y M s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y o u c a n d i r e c t h e r t o i t n o w t h a t s h e h a s , s h e

has.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

The email that you referred to appears on

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
page 166.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

D o c o n fir m th a t t h a t is th e e m a i l y o u

r e c e i v e d fr o m M s K w i n a n a ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h a t is th e e m a i l.
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

Ye s , a n d t h e d o c u m e n t th a t is a t t a c h e d o f

h e a r in g fr o m p a g e … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y. Yo u a r e l e a v in g m e b e h i n d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : L e t m e w a i t fo r y o u , C h a ir. I ’ m s o r r y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y 1 6 6 ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h e e m a il i s a t p a g e 1 6 6 . To w a r d s t h e

m i d d l e o f t h a t p a g e t h e r e i s a n e m a il fr o m Ya k h e K w i n a n a d ir e c t e d to
M s M p s h e s a y i n g , p l e a s e fi n d t h e a t ta c h e d . I h o p e y o u f in d i t i s in
o r d e r. D o y o u s e e t h a t M s M p s h e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , I h a v e s e e n i t . T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d th e d o c u m e n t t h a t is o n p a g e 1 6 9
of three pages.
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , a f t e r … ( i n d is ti n c t) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , w h a t is t h i s d o c u m e n t ? ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h is i s t h e le t t e r t h a t w a s a t t a c h e d
o n t h e e m a i l w h ic h i s le t t e r o f e n g a g e m e n t i n v e s ti g a ti o n o f c u r r e n t S A A
C F O a n d fo r m e r S A A a c t in g C E O .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

I s t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
to?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t’s t h e a w a r d t h a t I w a s

r e fe r r i n g t o .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d if y o u l o o k t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f th e
document at page 172.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , b e fo r e w e g e t t h e r e , l e t’s t a l k a b o u t w h a t

B o q w a n a w a s g o i n g t o d o i f y o u h a v e s i g n e d t h e a w a r d . W h a t w e r e th e
r e q u ir e d t o d o ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

C h a ir, it ’s o n p a g e 1 7 3 u n d e r

scope.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e s c o p e i s t o i n v e s ti g a t e th e
c o n d u c t a n d a ll e g a t io n s m a d e a g a i n s t t h e c u r r e n t C F O a n d f o r m e r
a c ti n g C E O o f S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s w h ic h i n c l u d e b u t n o t l i m i te d t o a )
lo a n f a c il it y p r o c u r e d o r a b o u t t o b e p r o c u r e d b y S A A w i t h o u t
a p p r o p r i a t e a p p r o v a l s b e in g o b t a in e d . b ) o p i n i o n o n t h e c o n d u c t o f th e
C F O i n r e la t io n t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e l o a n f u n d in g r e f e r r e d t o
a b o v e a n d t h e a ll e g e d u n l a w fu l r e c o r d in g o f m e e ti n g s b y t h e C F O . c )
a l le g a ti o n s m a d e b y a n a n o n y m o u s w h is tl e - b l o w e r w i t h r e g a r d s t o a

20

p o s s i b le c o n f lic t o f in t e r e s t e x i s ti n g i n r e s p e c t o f t h e … ( i n d is t in c t)
a c ti n g C E O o f th e S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s w h ic h m a y h a v e c a u s e d
fi n a n c i a l l o s s e s t o S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir w a y s . P o s s i b l e a n ti c o m p e t i tiv e
b e h a v io u r a n d / o r p o s s i b l e c o r r u p ti o n i n r e l a ti o n to v a r i o u s d e c i s i o n s
a r r a n g e m e n ts a n d a g r e e m e n t s b e t w e e n S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s a n d
M a n g o A ir l i n e s . d ) is r e v i e w t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S o u t h A fr i c a n

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A ir w a y s a n d M a n g o p u r s u a n t t o th e a l le g a t io n s m a d e a g a in s t th e f o r m e r
a c ti n g C E O o f S o u t h A f r ic a n A i r w a y s a n d to p r o v id e n e c e s s a r y a d v i c e
g e n e r a l ly i n a ll m a t t e r s r e la t in g th e r e to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u . Ye s , c o n t in u e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h o w a s t h e C F O a t t h e t i m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r H o f m e y e r.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h e C E O t h a t , t h e a c t in g C E O t h a t is

r e fe r r e d t o i n t h i s d o c u m e n t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r N i c o B e z u i d e n h o u t .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . I f y o u lo o k a t t h e s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s th a t
o u g h t to h a v e b e e n c o n d u c t e d b y B o q w a n a B u r n s , i s th e r e n o
d u p lic a ti o n b e t w e e n t h is a n d w h a t w a s a lr e a d y b e i n g d o n e b y E N S
p r e v i o u s ly ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir, i t is a c le a r d u p l ic a ti o n o n

t h is s c o p e o f B o q w a n a B u r n s to t h e s c o p e o f E N S a n d t o t h e s c o p e o f
EYNS.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , a n d w h e r e d o w e s e e t h a t d u p lic a ti o n ?
W h a t w a s in v e s t i g a t e d b y E N S t h a t i s n o w, s h o u ld b e i n v e s ti g a te d b y
Boqwana Burns?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is t h e a l l e g e d t r a n s a c t io n s o r M r
B e z u id e n h o u t f a v o u r i n g M a n g o Ai r l in e s a t t h e e x p e n s e o f S A A .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , a n d I w a s – I w a n t e d t o r e f e r y o u to

p a g e 1 7 2 t h a t if y o u l o o k a t th e b o t t o m o f t h a t p a g e th e r e i s a s p a c e
w h e r e y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o s i g n a s a n a c ti n g C E O .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Is t h is h o w y o u r e c e i v e d th is d o c u m e n t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t i s e x a c tl y h o w I r e c e i v e d t h e
document.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , a n d th e n w h a t th e n d id y o u th e n d o ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I th e n d i d n o t s ig n t h is le t t e r o f

e n g a g e m e n t o r a w a r d . A n d i f I m a y a d d f u r th e r, C h a ir, i s t h a t t h e
p a y m e n t s i n a d v a n c e . G e n e r a lly, w h e n y o u h a v e p e o p l e o n y o u r p a n e l
w e d o n ’ t d o a d v a n c e p a y m e n t s g e n e r a l ly.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e y o ff e r s e r v ic e , t h e y a r e i n a

p a n e l a n d th e n t h e i n v o i c e o n t h e w o r k d o n e . S o w h a t w a s a c t u a l ly
p e c u li a r a b o u t t h is o n e w a s t h a t it r e q u ir e d a 5 0 ,0 0 0 a d v a n c e p a y m e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d y o u … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll , I s e e s a y s a s a s e c u r i t y d e p o s i t . W a s n ’ t y o u r

fi n a n c i a l s i t u a t io n a s S A A t o o p r e c a r io u s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t s o , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Yo u t h e n in q u ir e d fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t , l e g a l

a n d fo r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d y o u fi n d t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t o n t h e b o a r d .
20

W h a t d i d y o u d o th e n a b o u t t h is tr a n s a c ti o n ? D i d y o u s i g n i t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I d i d n ’t s ig n i t a n d I th e n i n f o r m e d
M s K w i n a n a th a t I a m n o t s i g n i n g i t a n d I w i ll n o t s i g n it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l, I w a n t e d to s a y t o y o u M s M p s h e r e l a t i n g t o t h a t
R 5 0 , 0 0 0 . T h a t a n u m b e r o f la w fir m s d o a s k f o r w h a t is c a l l e d a d e p o s i t
b e f o r e th e y s t a r t to w o r k fo r y o u .

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o b v i o u s ly t h o s e w h o w e r e o n y o u r p a n e l m a y h a v e
b e e n m a d e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t b e in g o n t h e p a n e l m e a n s t h e t e r m s a n d
c o n d i ti o n s o f o u r r e la t io n s h ip a r e a l o n g t h e s e l in e s a n d th a t m i g h t h a v e
in c l u d e d t h a t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir, a n d w i t h a ll
m y e x p e r i e n c e I ’v e n e v e r h a d t o p a y i n a d v a n c e o n a n y o n e w h o w a s o n
the panel.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . N o , I w a s j u s t m e n t i o n in g b e c a u s e .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id s a y i t w a s s tr a n g e a n d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s ,
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a ls o l a u g h e d b u t t o b e h o n e s t , a n u m b e r o f f ir m s d o
a s k f o r s o m e p r e p a y m e n t e s p e c ia ll y th e y h a v e n e v e r h a d a n y, d o n e a n y
w o r k fo r y o u b e f o r e b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e n i t c o m e s t o p a r a s t a ta ls a n d
government

departments

where

maybe

your

payment

is

almost

g u a r a n te e d . Ye s , o k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . T h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h i s p a r t ic u l a r
c o n tr a c t? A f t e r y o u r e c e iv e d t h e i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m a l l o th e r s t a k e h o l d e r s
20

that they were not part of the panel of SAA panels what then happened
t o t h i s c o n tr a c t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , I d id n ’t s ig n i t a n d I

c o m m u n ic a te d a c c o r d i n g l y t o M s K w i n a n a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s h e r r e a c t io n w h e n s h e r e c e iv e d y o u r

p o s i ti o n th a t y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g t o s ig n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

She said to me never mind, you

k n o w in t h a t m a n n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N e v e r m in d , t h e y a l r e a d y s ta r t e d

w o r k i n g . S o i t d o e s n ’ t m a t te r w h e t h e r y o u s ig n o r n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , th a t m u s t h a v e c o m e a s s tr a n g e t o y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f c o u r s e , C h a ir, it w a s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d h o w d i d t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n e n d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I j u s t l e ft i t a n d I ju s t s a i d a t l e a s t I
h a v e in f o r m e d y o u t h a t I w i ll n o t s i g n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o i f th e y h a v e a lr e a d y s t a r te d

w o r k i n g i t ’s o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I d id n ’ t a u t h o r iz e i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s . M s M p s h e , y o u l a te r m a d e s o m e

d is c o v e r i e s th a t t h i s le t t e r o f e n g a g e m e n t w a s in d e e d s ig n e d . J u s t t a k e
u s th r o u g h t h a t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . I w a s la t e r in f o r m e d t h a t t h a t
le t t e r o f e n g a g e m e n t o r a w a r d t h a t I d i d n ’ t s ig n w a s s u b s e q u e n tly

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
s ig n e d b y Ms K w in a n a i n h e r c a p a c i ty a s a c ti n g C h a ir o f th e a u d i t r is k
a n d c o m p li a n c e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d t h a t p o s i ti o n g iv e f o r th e p o w e r t o s i g n s u c h

awards?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: As far as you knew?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A s a n e x e c u ti v e , n o n e e x e c u t iv e

d ir e c t o r, a n y n o n e e x e c u t iv e d i r e c t o r is n o t s u p p o s e d t o g e t i n v o lv e d i n
10

t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d n o t s u p p o s e d t o g e t in v o lv e d w i t h
s e r v ic e s b y s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s o r s e r v i c e p o te n ti a l s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s .
T h e y a r e n o t s u p p o s e d to g e t in v o lv e d w it h th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: But you found that she had signed it?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I f o u n d t h a t s h e h a d s ig n e d i t ,

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d i d y o u f i n d o u t ? H o w d i d y o u fi n d th a t ? H o w d i d
it c o m e a b o u t th a t y o u g o t t o k n o w th a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H o w I g o t t o f in d o u t w a s M r M e y e r
came to me.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a c ti n g C E O ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C F O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a c ti n g C F, o h th e C F O .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C F O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S a id t o m e th a t th is s e r v i c e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
p r o v i d e r, B o q w a n a B u r n s h a s b e e n e n g a g e d a n d t h e y a r e r e q u e s ti n g
in f o r m a ti o n f r o m h i m . A n d th e n h e t h e n a s k e d t h a t h o w w e r e th e y
e n g a g e d a n d a l s o w h e r e i s th e n o n d i s c lo s u r e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e
n o r m a l ly h a v e w i th a n e x t e r n a l s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r a n d b o t h w e r e n o t
e x i s te n t . S o I j u s t d i d a n d e x p l a i n e d t o h i m t h a t I h a v e n o t a p p r o v e d t h e
e n g a g e m e n t l e t t e r. S o I’ m n o t s u r e h o w t h e y w i ll h a v e b e e n e n g a g e d
a n d I ’ m , o f c o u r s e i t ’s a ls o ir r e g u la r t h a t t h e y w i ll e n g a g e w i t h o u t
s ig n in g a n o n d is c l o s u r e . A n d l a te r o n I w a s th e n s h o w n b y t h e
in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r o n t h is C o m m i s s i o n t h e n o n d i s c l o s u r e s ig n e d b y
10

M s K w i n a n a t o g e t h e r w i th t h e l e t t e r o f e n g a g e m e n t o r th e a w a r d i n h e r
c a p a c i ty a s C h a ir o f t h e a u d i t r is k a n d c o m p l ia n c e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , i f I m a y t a k e y o u t o ; i f o n l y t a k e y o u

b a c k a n d r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 1 9 3 u n d e r t a b 2 6 , C h a ir. Is t h a t, w h a t is
t h a t d o c u m e n t th a t i s o n th a t p a g e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It is the same one that was an

a tt a c h m e n t o n m y e m a il t h a t I w a s , I r e q u ir e d t o s i g n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s , a n d n o w i t h a s s o m e i n i t ia ls a t t h e

bottom of each page.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
20

A D V ZI N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , a n d i f y o u g o u p t o p a g e 1 9 6 t h e r e is a
s ig n a tu r e th e r e . Is th a t t h e s i g n a t u r e o f M s K w i n a n a t h a t y o u a r e
r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , it s a y s h e r e Ya k h e K w i n a n a ,

4 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . O n to p t h e r e w h e r e it s a y s a c ti n g C E O o f S o u t h
A fr ic a n A ir w a y s , i t ’s w r it t e n b y h a n d C h a ir p e r s o n o f a u d i t a n d r i s k .

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A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M y n a m e a t t h e b o t t o m is

s c r a t c h e d ; is w r i t t e n M s Ya k h e K w in a n a .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

O k a y. A n d i f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 9 8 . W h a t is

that document on page 198?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

1 9 8 is a c o n f id e n ti a l i ty a n d

n o n d i s c l o s u r e a g r e e m e n t.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I s th a t t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u s a y y o u w e r e
s h o w n b y i n v e s t ig a t o r s o f t h i s C o m m i s s i o n ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , a n d i f y o u l o o k a t h i s p a g e t h e r e a r e
in it i a ls .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , a n d o n t h e l a s t p a g e , th e r e is a

s ig n a tu r e , t h e r e a r e s i g n a t u r e s th a t a r e a p p e a r in g o n t h a t la s t p a g e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

W h o s ig n e d o n b e h a lf o f S o u t h A fr ic a n

A ir w a y s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

Ya k h e K w i n a n a , C h a ir p e r s o n o f

a u d it a n d r is k c o m m i t t e e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

A n d w a s M s K w in a n a e m p o w e r e d t o s i g n

t h is d o c u m e n t o n b e h a lf o f S A A ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is o u ts i d e o f th e d e l e g a ti o n o f a
n o n e x e c u tiv e d ir e c t o r t o s i g n a n o n d i s c l o s u r e a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e t h i s
a g r e e m e n t w i ll h a v e m e a n t th a t t h e c o m p a n y is e n g a g i n g o n s o m e k i n d

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o f a r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h th e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r w h e r e w e a r e s a y in g t h e y w i ll
n o t d i s c lo s e t h e i n fo r m a ti o n w h i c h r e l a t e s t o t h e c o m p a n y. S o i t is a l s o
ir r e g u l a r t h a t s h e w o u l d h a v e s ig n e d t h a t n o n d is c lo s u r e a g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s M p s h e , y o u h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d in s e n io r

m a n a g e m e n t p o s i ti o n s i n d i ffe r e n t c o m p a n i e s fo r a l o n g t i m e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m a n y y e a r s m o r e o r le s s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Yo h , j a , i t ’s q u i te a l o n g ti m e . M o r e
than 20 years.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w y o u ’r e s e e i n g a n o n e x e c u ti v e m e m b e r o f a

c o m p a n y b o a r d s ig n in g a n a g r e e m e n t s u c h a s th is , w a s t h e s o m e t h in g
that you had ever come across in your experience?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir, I h a v e n e v e r c o m e a c r o s s

and it was a blatant disregard of governance and it was shocking.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u a s t h e a c ti n g C E O w h e n t h e s e n i o r e x e c u t iv e s
a t S A A w e r e n o t a w a r e th a t t h e r e w a s s u c h a n e la b o r a te a g r e e m e n t
b e i n g d is c u s s e d b e t w e e n a m e m b e r o f t h e b o a r d , a n d n o n e x e c u t iv e
m e m b e r o f th e b o a r d a n d a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r, th e n e x t th in g y o u j u s t s a w
it w a s c o n c l u d e d ? I t w a s s i g n e d ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. I t h i n k o n e

n e c e s s it a t e t h e s i g n i n g o f t h a t n o n d is c l o s u r e is w h e n Mr M e y e r w h o is
s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n i n v e s ti g a t e d r a is e d i t w i th r e p r e s e n t a t iv e fr o m
B o q w a n a B u r n s . To s a y, y o u c a n n o t a s k m e o f c o n fi d e n t i a l in f o r m a t io n
w h e n y o u d o n ’ t e v e n h a v e a n o n d is c lo s u r e a g r e e m e n t . I th in k i t w a s
s ig n e d a f t e r t h a t.

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CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , I w a s a b o u t to a s k in t e r m s o f d a te s . I t lo o k s

lik e t h e l e tt e r th a t Ms K w in a n a w a n t e d y o u t o s i g n , i t l o o k s l ik e s h e
s ig n e d i t , w a s i t e a r l y i n S e p t e m b e r o r e a r l y in O c t o b e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n t h e a c t u a l n o n d is c lo s u r e a g r e e m e n t w a s

s ig n e d l a t e i n O c t o b e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 1 9 O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n t h e y w o u l d lo n g h a v e b e e n w o r k in g b e c a u s e
when you… (intervention).
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , a l r e a d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u t o l d h e r th a t y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g to s i g n s h e
s a i d t h e y h a d a lr e a d y s t a r t e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS

M AT H U LWA N E

E M I LY

MPSHE:

She

s ig n e d

on

the

4th

of

S e p te m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e e n g a g e m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: The engagement, yes.
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d in t h is n o n d is c lo s u r e w a s

s ig n e d o n th e 1 9 t h o f O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M o r e th a n a m o n th la t e r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t s ix w e e k s l a t e r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

M s M p s h e , y o u a ls o m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o a

b o a r d r e s o lu t io n t h a t w a s t a k e n i n r e la t io n t o th is m a t t e r. C a n y o u t a k e
u s th r o u g h t o t h a t b o a r d r e s o lu t io n ? W h a t d i d i t a p p r o v e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n w h i c h p a r t o f t h e ?
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

F r o m o n p a r a g r a p h 6 2 . I t s ta r t s a t t h e

b o t t o m o f p a r a g r a p h 6 2 , t h e l a s t li n e . I h a v e p e r u s e d t h e b o a r d
r e s o l u ti o n . Th e n y o u t a l k a b o u t th e r e s o l u ti o n .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O h y e s .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Fr o m a 1 7 g o i n g t o p a g e 1 8 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I h a v e a ls o p e r u s e d t h e b o a r d

r e s o l u ti o n a n d h a v e s e e n t h a t i t w a s a p p a r e n t ly r e s o lv e d o n t h e 2 6 t h o f
A u g u s t t o a p p o i n t L u v o M a k h a s i o f B o q w a n a B u r n s . T h is r e s o l u ti o n
s t a te d i t w a s a u t h o r i z e d fo r t h e in v e s t i g a t i o n o f t h e M a n g o A ir l i n e C E O
e m a n a t in g fr o m t h e w h is t le - b lo w e r r e p o r t a n d a ll e g a ti o n s in t h e C F O . I
s e n d a n e m a i l q u e r y o n 1 2 O c t o b e r fr o m N i c k L e e N e il w a s t h e a d v is o r
t o t h e C h a ir.
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : R e q u e s t in g a c o p y o f t h e r e s o l u ti o n
a p p o i n ti n g L u v o a s s u m in g th is i s Mr M a k h a s i fr o m B o q w a n a B u r n s . I
s e e th e r e s o l u ti o n w a s s e n t t o h i m p r e s u m in g i t b e th e s a m e r e s o lu t io n
d is c u s s e d a b o v e . D a t e d 1 3 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h o w a s M r L e e N e i l , N ic k L e e N e i l?

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I le t M r N i c k L e e N e il a s a n a d v is o r
t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , M s M y e n i.
A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

W a s i t th e S A A’s a d v is o r o r a p r i v a t e

a d v is o r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A p r i v a t e a d v is o r t o t h e C h a ir. I t

w a s n o t a n o ffic i a l a d v is o r a s i n r e p r e s e n ti n g S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S A A w a s n o t i n v o l v e d in p a y i n g f o r t h a t a d v is o r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n i ti a l l y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n i t ia ll y n o t?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n l a te r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I h e a r d th a t th e d i d p a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

W e r e y o u s ti ll a t S A A w h e n h e w a s b e i n g

paid?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s n ’t a t S A A w h e n h e w a s b e i n g
paid.
20

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h o k a y. S o y o u h e a r d t h a t th e r e w a s t h is
r e s o l u ti o n a p p o i n ti n g L u v o . Yo u s a i d L u v o w a s s o m e o n e f r o m B o q w a n a
Burns?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

And Ms Mpshe, what do you make of this

r e s o l u ti o n ? D o y o u h a v e a n y o f y o u o n t h is r e s o l u ti o n ?

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h is r e s o l u ti o n is t h e o n e o n p a –
it ’s t m 2 9 ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , i t ’s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T M 2 9 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t ’s u n d e r t a b 2 9 s ta r t i n g o n p a g e 2 1 7 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 2 1 7 . T h e r e is r e f e r e n c e h e r e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t f lo w s fr o m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Fr o m 2 1 9 g o i n g b a c k w a r d s .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , fr o m 2 1 9 g o i n g b a c k w a r d s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I d o n ’ t s e e i t r e s o lu t i o n h e r e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h e r e s o l u ti o n i t s e l f is n o t a t ta c h e d b u t

t h e r e is a tr a il o f e m a il s d is c u s s i n g t h e s o - c a ll e d r e s o l u t i o n . D o y o u
see that Ms Mpshe?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I s e e t h a t a n d th e tr a i l is fr o m t h e
1 2 t h o f O c to b e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

From Ms Kibuka. It says, dear

Ya k h e . P l e a s e f i n d t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n o n th e w h is tl e - b l o w e r r e p o r t a s
r e q u e s t e d . S o M s K i b u k a , t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y is s e n d i n g a n e m a il ,
a n e x t r a c t o f t h e b o a r d r e s o lu t i o n a n d o n t h a t w a s t h e 1 2 t h . A n d t h e n
f o ll o w i n g o n i t fr o m Ya k h e t o R a s h e e d W h a le y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t h i n k N ic k L e e N e i l , th e p r o j e c ts
o ffic e t o s a y p l e a s e f in d t h e r e s o lu t io n . S o I s u p p o s e a s s o o n a s R u t h
K i b u k a s e n t t h e r e s o lu t io n , i t w a s t h e n s e n t t o R a s h e e d W h a l e y c o p ie d
N i c k L e e N e il . A n d t h e n fo ll o w i n g o n fr o m th a t o n e i s N i c o la N e il is
a s k in g , h i Ya k h e , d o w e h a v e a r e s o l u ti o n a p p o i n ti n g L u v o ? N o w i t ’s M r
N i c k L e e N e il , Mr. N ic k L e e N e i l .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e n m o v i n g o n it s a y s , M s

K w in a n a g o e s t o R u t h a n d s a y … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, s o r r y Ms M p s h e . M s B u t h e l e z i , d o w e n e e d to
s p e n d ti m e o n t h o s e i f th e r e s o l u ti o n is n o t th e r e i ts e lf ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M a y b e w e n e e d to m o v e f o r w a r d , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , i f t h e r e s o lu t io n i s n o t t h e r e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u , M s M p s h e . A n d t h e n y o u t a lk

a b o u t t h e e m a il t h a t w a s s e n t o n t h e 7 t h o f N o v e m b e r b y M r M e y e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . W h a t w a s o n t h e e m a il ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And he, do you want me to go to

the email?
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I f y o u c o u ld s u m m a r i s e w h a t h e s a id .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

J a I ’l l ju s t s u m m a r is e , t h a t M r

W o l f m e y e r w a s c o n c e r n e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o n o n - d is c l o s u r e a g r e e m e n t ,
s o h e w e n t t o t h e S A C h ie f A u d i t E x e c u ti v e a n d D r D a h w a , a n d t h e
c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y a n d t h e n h e s a i d t h a t h e ’s b e e n a p p r o a c h e d a n d
t h a t h e m u s t g iv e i n f o r m a t i o n b u t h e h a d n o – n o p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t

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p r o c e s s w a s fo ll o w e d . S o h e w a s v e r y c o n c e r n e d t h a t – s o D r D a h w a
w a s i n te r m s o f p r o c u r e m e n t a n d th e C h ie f A u d i t E x e c u t iv e w a s in t e r m s
o f f o r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t io n s a s i t w a s i n h is r e a l m .

S o h e w e n t to th e m

a n d s a i d , h e r e ’s s o m e o n e w h o ’s a p p r o a c h e d m e th e r e ’s n o n o n d is c l o s u r e th is i s w h a t is b e i n g a s k e d a n d th is w a s n o w th e e m a i l th a t
w a s s e n t o n t h e 7 t h o f N o v e m b e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d a f t e r th e 7 t h o f N o v e m b e r d id y o u
h e a r a n y th i n g a b o u t B o q w a n a B u r n s a n d t h is c o n tr a c t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

I didn’t hear anything about

B o q w a n a B u r n s a n d t h is c o n tr a c t a f te r t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h a t b e c a u s e y o u h a d s i n c e g o n e b a c k to y o u r

p o s i ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t c o u l d b e y e s b u t s u b s e q u e n t ly

w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a to r I h e a r t h a t B o q w a n a B u r n s i n d e e d e n g a g e d a n d
Boqwana Burns was paid by SAA under ENS and Sonnenberg – Nathan
& Sonnenberg.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e p a id u n d e r E N S ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e y w e r e s u b - c o n tr a c te d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I s u p p o s e a s a w a y o f fi n d i n g t o

le g a l is e u s i n g B o q w a n a B u r n s t h e y w e r e s u b - c o n tr a c t e d b y E N S , s o t h e
p a y m e n t t h r o u g h a s a s u b - c o n t r a c to r t o E N S b u t t h e y w e r e p a id .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e l e t t e r o f – in t e r m s o f w h ic h t h e y w e r e

a p p o i n t e d d i d n ’ t ta lk a b o u t t h e m b e i n g s u b - c o n tr a c te d , i s n ’ t i t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e t h a t o n e w a s w i t h d r a w n s o th a t t h e y c o u ld
g o u n d e r E N S a s a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

B u t i t w a s s i g n e d a s a le g it i m a t e

d o c u m e n t f o ll o w e d b y t h a t n o n - d is c lo s u r e a g r e e m e n t s o t h a t I s u p p o s e
o n t h e f a c e o f it , t h a t y e s , t h e y h a v e b e e n a w a r d e d , y e s t h e y h a v e a
n o n - d i s c lo s u r e a g r e e m e n t , t h e y c a n g e t o n w i t h t h e w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f a s u p p li e r g o e s a s a s u b - c o n t r a c t o r w o u l d th e y

h a v e a d ir e c t c o n tr a c t w i th y o u a s S A A , w o u l d n ’ t t h e y j u s t h a v e a
c o n tr a c t
10

with

the

s e r v ic e

provider

who

has

a

c o n tr a c t

w i th

SAA…(intervention).
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e m a i n c o n tr a c t o r w o u l d h a v e

b e e n t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r t h a t w i ll c o n t r a c t w i th S A A n o t t h e s u b c o n tr a c to r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s th a t ’s t h e p o i n t I ’ m r a is i n g w i t h y o u t o s a y, w o u l d
it n o t b e s t r a n g e t o h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e th e r e w a s a l e t te r i n te r m s
o f w h i c h t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d a s a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r th e m s e lv e s in t h e ir
o w n r ig h t a n d n o t a s a s u b - c o n tr a c to r b u t t h e n t h e a c t u a l p a y m e n t g o e s
t o E N S I a s s u m e o n t h e b a s is t h a t E N S m u s t p a y t h e a s a c o n tr a c to r, i t
s e e m s t o b e a v e r y s tr a n g e a r r a n g e m e n t .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

In d e e d i t is s t r a n g e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i f y o u ’r e a p p o in t e d a s a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t h e
p a y m e n t s h o u l d g o to y o u d ir e c tl y a n d i f y o u ’v e g o t t h a t l e t te r w h y d o
y o u g e t p a id t h r o u g h s o m e b o d y e ls e a s a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t is s tr a n g e C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Thank you but do you have any personal

k n o w l e d g e i f B o q w a n a B u r n s w a s p a i d d ir e c t ly b y S A A a t s o m e p o in t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

No I have no personal knowledge.

Thank you.

M a ’a m l e t’s t h e n m o v e to t h e

n e x t fi r m o f fo r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a to r s Er n e s t & Yo u n g , d o y o u k n o w w h a t
t h e y w e r e c o n tr a c t e d t o i n v e s t ig a t e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s E r n e s t & Yo u n g w a s

c o n tr a c te d t o i n v e s t ig a t e M r B e z u i d e n h o u t a n d a ls o , I th in k i t w a s , - I
c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r b u t i t w a s d e f in i te ly Mr B e z u i d e n h o u t a n d t h e r e w a s a
10

fi n a n c i a l in v e s ti g a t io n w h ic h w o u l d h a v e in c lu d e d M r M e y e r.
ADV

ZINHLE

BUTHELEZI:

It

w o u ld

have

in c l u d e d

the

same

in v e s t i g a t io n th a t is a l r e a d y c o v e r e d b y E N S a n d B o q w a n a B u r n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a t ’s e x a c tly t h e s a m e .

Ye s d o y o u k n o w i f t h e y w e r e p a r t o f y o u r

panel?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I don’t remember with EY being

p a r t o f t h e fo r e n s ic , I ’ m n o t a w a r e , I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A r e y o u f a m i li a r w i th t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s
f o ll o w e d , a p p o i n ti n g t h e m t o d o th is i n v e s t i g a t io n ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o I ’ m n o t f a m il i a r.

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , t h e n d id y o u g e t t o s e e t h e r e p o r ts t h a t
w a s p r o d u c e d fr o m t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e r e p o r t th a t w a s r e c e iv e d fr o m

t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n , M s K w i n a n a c a m e t o a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e E x c o , w i th
M s M y e n i b e in g in t h e m e e ti n g a n d s h e t h e n s a i d t h a t s h e ’s g o t t h e E Y

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
r e p o r t a n d s h e h a d t h e r e p o r t o n h e r a n d s a i d … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s t h e E r n e s t & Yo u n g r e p o r t , E Y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

E r n e s t & Yo u n g , E Y a n d i n th a t

r e p o r t s h e s a y s , a s f a r a s S A A w a s c o n c e r n e d th e r e p o r t h i g h l i g h t e d
s o m e is s u e s o f c o n tr o l – th e c o n tr o l s w i t h i n t h e c o m p a n y a n d t h a t
n e e d e d t o b e r e m e d ia t e d a n d t h e n a s f a r a s S A Te c h n ic a l is c o n c e r n e d ,
t h e y d i d n ’ t fi n d a n y t h i n g w r o n g a n d t h e n a t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g , th e n
I r e q u e s t e d M s K w i n a n a to g iv e m e t h e r e p o r t s o t h a t I c a n c ir c u l a t e t o
t h e a ff e c te d e x e c u tiv e s s o t h a t t h e y c a n s t a r t w o r k i n g o n r e m e d i a ti n g ,
10

e s p e c i a l ly w h e r e i t w a s a is s u e o f t h e c o n tr o ls a n d t h a t r e p o r t w a s
n e v e r f o r t h c o m in g , I l e f t S A A w i t h o u t h a v i n g s i g n e d o ff t h a t r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u l e f t h o w l o n g a ft e r y o u h a d a s k e d f o r t h a t

report, more or less?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h i s w a s s ti ll i n 2 0 1 5 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h e r e w a s a m p l e t i m e f o r it t o r e a c h y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it d i d n ’ t r e a c h y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

No it didn’t reach me.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u , t h e n th e n e x t t o p i c t h a t y o u d e a l
w i t h i s th e is s u e o f ( i n d i s t i n c t) r e p o r t s . Yo u t a lk a b o u t a c a l l t h a t y o u
received

fr o m

a

c e r ta i n

jo u r n a l is t

in

2016

w h il e

you

were

on

s u s p e n s i o n , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h to w h a t tr a n s p ir e d th e r e
Ms Mpshe?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s n o t a j o u r n a lis t , i t w a s a

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
m e m b e r o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n c a l le d O U TA , O r g a n is a ti o n U n d o in g Ta x .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th a t’s th e c a ll I r e c e i v e d fr o m

t h e m a n d i n th a t c a l l I w a s t h e n i n f o r m e d t h a t M s K w i n a n a h a d g o n e t o
O U TA t o i n a w a y r e q u e s t O U TA n o t t o - i t l o o k s li k e a t t h e t i m e O U TA
w a s s a y i n g t h a t th e y w a n t to p u r s u e l e g a l a c ti o n o f a d e l i n q u e n t
d ir e c t o r f o r M s M y e n i a n d M s K w i n a n a s o s h e w e n t t h e r e t o s a y th e y
m u s t n ’t p u r s u e h e r lik e s h e w il l c o o p e r a te w i t h th e m a n d g iv e t h e m t h e
in f o r m a ti o n a n d th e y m u s t n ’t p u r s u e h e r a n d – s o i n h e r e n g a g e m e n t
10

w i t h t h e m , s h e t h e n , I ’ m to l d n o w b y t h i s p e r s o n w h o c a ll e d m e , t h a t
s h e t h e n in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e y – s h e w i ll a c c o m p a n y M s M y e n i t o a n
in t e r n e t c a fé to g o a n d fo r m u l a te t h e s e w h i s t l e - b l o w e r s a n d th o s e
w h is t le - b lo w e r s r e p o r ts w e r e u s e d t o v ic ti m is e s o m e o f t h e s t a ff
m e m b e r s a t S A A t o s u s p e n d s o m e o f t h e m e m b e r s a t S A A a n d a ls o
s o m e o f th e m t o d i s m is s s o m e o f th e m e m b e r s a t S A A . S o t h e y a s k e d
m e i f I w a s a w a r e , I s a i d , w e ll I w a s n o t a w a r e , I k n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e
w h is t le - b lo w e r r e p o r ts a n d t h e o n e I r e f e r r e d to w a s t h e o n e th a t I s a i d ,
M s K w i n a n a w r o t e a n e m a il to t h e C h i e f A u d i t E x e c u t iv e s a y i n g t h a t I
h a v e r e c e iv e d t h is w h i s tl e - b l o w e r t h a t c a m e fr o m h e r h a v i n g f o r m u l a t e d

20

t h e e m a i l … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

S o r r y is t h a t t h e o n e th a t r e l a t e s t o Mr

Bosc.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e o n e t h a t r e l a t e s to M r B o s c

y e s . S o th e n f o r m e , fir s t o f a l l it w a s a s h o c k t h a t s o m e b o d y – p e o p le
a t t h a t s t a tu s in th e o r g a n is a t io n a n d o n e b e i n g th e C h a i r a n d o n e

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b e i n g t h e C h a ir o f A u d i t a n d R is k a n d b e i n g B o a r d m e m b e r s c o u ld
a c t u a ll y g o o u t a n d d o s u c h t h i n g s , w h a t w a s m o r e c o n c e r n in g to m e
C h a ir w a s t h a t M s K w i n a n a w a s t h e C h a ir o f A u d i t R is k a n d C o m p l i a n c e
a n d s h e ’s s u p p o s e d t o s e e t h e w h o l e g o v e r n a n c e i n t e r m s o f t h e A u d i t
a n d th e R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e , n o t o n ly t h a t s h e w a s th e c u s to d ia n o f
a l l t h is w h is tl e - b l o w i n g s o – a n d t h e w h i s t le - b lo w in g w e r e b r o u g h t t o
t h e o r g a n is a t i o n a s le g it i m a t e w h is tl e - b l o w e r s , p e o p l e w e r e d is c i p l i n e d
o n t h a t a n d i t c o m e s o u t la t e r t h a t t h e y h a d fo r m u l a te d t h e s e t h in g s , s o
f o r m e i t w a s …( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

E ff e c t iv e ly w a s w h a t y o u w e r e to l d , e ff e c ti v e ly t h a t

M s K w i n a n a s a i d th a t s h e w o u l d a c c o m p a n y M s M y e n i t o – is i t a c a f é ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

In t e r n e t c a f é .

C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r n e t c a f é w h e r e th e y f a b r ic a te d e ffe c tiv e ly r e p o r ts
w h ic h w e r e p r e s e n t e d a s w h is tl e - b l o w e r r e p o r ts , is t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e
t o l d i n e ff e c t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , i n e ff e c t t h a t w a s

that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u w e r e b e i n g t o l d b y s o m e b o d y a t O U TA ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

I was told by Mr Wayne Duvenage

fr o m O U TA y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And I was shocked because then I

s t a r t e d t o r e f le c t b a c k th a t fo r e x a m p le S y l v a i n B o s c w a s s u s p e n d e d o n
t h e b a s i s o f a w h i s t l e - b l o w e r a n d M r B e z u i d e n h o u t ’s m a t t e r w a s a
w h is t le - b lo w e r m a t te r a n d t h e r e w a s a ls o a w h i s tl e - b l o w e r in r e s p e c t o f

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m e th a t a ls o h a d c o m e t h r o u g h , e v e n t h o u g h s h e d i d n ’ t s e e i t t h r o u g h
b u t a t s o m e s t a g e s h e w o u l d ju s t th r o w i t i n a n d s a y b y t h e w a y t h e r e ’s
a w h is tl e - b l o w e r o n y o u a n d a t s o m e s t a g e I r e m e m b e r I s a i d t o t h e
C h a ir, s o if y o u b e li e v e t h a t d is c ip li n a r y a c t io n n e e d s to b e t a k e n , I a m
r e p o r t in g y o u to th e B o a r d , w h y d o n ’ t y o u a c ti o n t h e d is c i p l in a r y b a s e d
o n th e w h is tl e - b l o w e r b u t i t w a s n e v e r a c t io n e d o n m e b u t I w a s r e a ll y
s h o c k e d th a t , i n m y v i e w th a t p e o p l e c a n s t e e p s o lo w, m e a n t o u s e m y
e x p r e s s io n , th a t p e o p l e c a n s t o o p s o lo w, p e o p le b e i n g g iv e n s u c h
p o s i ti o n s o f r e s p o n s i b il it y t o t h a t e x te n t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I s a w s o m e t h i n g h e r e i n t h e f il e t h a t s u g g e s ts

t h a t M s K w i n a n a m a y h a v e b e e n , I d o n ’ t n o w, i f s h e w a s a n a c c o u n ta n t ,
a n a u d i to r o r s o m e t h i n g o r w a s I m is ta k e n w h a t w a s h e r e d a y jo b ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M s Kwinana was a chartered

a c c o u n t a n t b y p r o fe s s i o n a n d M s K w i n a n a h a d b u s in e s s th a t w a s a n
a u d it f ir m t h a t w a s a u d i ti n g c o m p a n i e s in c lu d i n g a u d i t in g S O C ’s , s o f o r
m e t h e r e s p o n s i b il it y o f h e r b e i n g C h a i r o f A u d i t R is k C o m p li a n c e w a s
b e f i tt i n g in li n e w it h h e r e x p e r i e n c e a n d q u a l if ic a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e l l c o n t in u e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u , a n d – d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t y o u
20

w e r e s h o w n s o m e tr a n s c r i p t o f s o m e r e c o r d i n g s th a t i n te r v i e w b e t w e e n
O U TA a n d M s K w i n a n a b y o u r in v e s t i g a t o r s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D id i t t a l ly w i t h w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t t a ll i e d w i t h w h a t I w a s to ld

C h a ir, in t e r m s o f w h a t s h e h a d s a id t h e r e o n t h e tr a n s c r i p ts .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Duvenage, as I understand is the name of the
p e r s o n f r o m O U TA w h o s p o k e t o y o u , d i d h e t e ll y o u w h e th e r O U TA h a d
in i t ’s p o s s e s s i o n a n y s ta t e m e n t – w r i t t e n s t a te m e n t b y M s K w i n a n a
a l o n g t h e li n e s th a t h e to l d y o u i n te r ms o f w h a t s h e h a d t o l d th e m ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir w h a t M r D u v e n a g e s h a r e d

w i t h m e w a s t h a t – to u s e h is w o r d s ,

h e s a id , M s K w i n a n a w a s v e r y

s h i f ty a n d i n t h e e n d s h e d id n ’ t p u t a n y t h i n g i n w r i t in g , th e y h a d ta p e d
a n d t h a t’s i n t h e tr a n s c r i p t s b u t s h e w a s - i n i t ia ll y h e to l d m e t h a t s h e
g a v e a n i m p r e s s i o n t h a t s h e w a s g o in g t o t e l l a l l s o t h a t O U TA c a n t h e n
10

r e l i e v e h e r o f n o t b e i n g b e c a u s e s h e s a i d if s h e i s f o u n d t o b e
d e li n q u e n t d ir e c t o r s h e c a n ’t p r a c t ic e , t h e fir m w i ll h a v e t o c l o s e , t h e
a u d it f ir m w i ll h a v e t o c l o s e , s h e c a n ’ t p r a c ti c e a s a C A s o h e th o u g h t
t h a t s h e w a s g o i n g t o d iv u l g e , h o n e s t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And he said that he didn’t find her

t o b e a r e l ia b l e p e r s o n a n d s h e r e fu s e d t o a n s w e r a l o t o f q u e s t io n s
a n d s h e d id n ’t p u t a n y t h i n g in w r i ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d i d h e s a y th e y r e c o r d e d t h e c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h

her or what?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e c o n v e r s a t io n w a s r e c o r d e d ,

t h e y h a d tw o m e e t i n g s , t h is tr a n s c r ip t h e r e i s a s a r e s u l t o f th e
recordings.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir, w e a r e in t e n d in g t o l e a d

t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e p e r s o n t h a t w a s in v o l v e d i n t h is in t e r v ie w w i t h M s

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
K w in a n a s o I w i ll n o t ta k e M s M p s h e t o t h a t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s fi n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I w il l t h e n m o v e to th e n e x t t o p ic , y o u d e a l
w i t h t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty m a t t e r s fr o m p a r a g r a p h 7 0 g o in g f o r w a r d .

I

w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u M s M p s h e w h a t n e c e s s i ta t e d t h is p r o c e s s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W h e n M r B o s c to o k o v e r a n d p a r t

o f t h e l o n g - t e r m t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y w a s to r e v i e w t h e – i n t h e
c o m m e r c ia l s p a c e t h e p r o fi t a b il it y o f t h e r o u t e s th a t S A A w e r e f ly i n g t o
a n d o n e o f t h e r o u te s t h a t S A A w a s f ly in g t o a n d w a s n o t p r o f it a b l e w a s
10

D a k a r. S A A u s e d t o f ly t h r o u g h to N e w Yo r k v i a D a k a r a n d S e n e g a l a n d
o r i g in a l ly t h e h i s t o r y w a s t h a t t h e S e n e g a l e s e g o v e r n m e n t h a d m a d e a n
a r r a n g e m e n t th a t th e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e fe e d e r a ir li n e f r o m w i t h i n
S e n e g a l i n to D a k a r t o c o n n e c t t h e tr a ff ic fr o m D a k a r t o N e w Yo r k . S o
S A A w i ll c o m e f r o m J o h a n n e s b u r g , g o t o D a k a r a n d s o m e p e o p le w il l
g e t o ff in t o D a k a r a n d th e n s o m e p e o p le w i ll g e t i n to t h e fli g h t to f il l u p
t h e fl i g h t e n r o u t e t o N e w Yo r k a n d t h i s d id n ’ t m a t e r ia lis e , th a t a ir li n e
w e n t ( in d i s ti n c t) th a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o f e e d a n d h o w e v e r S A A c o n ti n u e d
t o h a v e a s t o p - o v e r i n D a k a r. S o w h e n h e – M r B o s c j o i n e d i t w a s o n e
o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h e r e v i e w e d a n d h e d is c o v e r e d t h a t w e ’r e n o t m a k i n g

20

a p r o g r e s s , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f a n y o n e o f y o u h a v e b e e n o n th a t f li g h t,
w h e n y o u g o to N e w Yo r k , y o u s to p i n D a k a r, a n o t h e r 4 0 m i n u t e s o r s o
t h e y c h a n g e th e – y o u g e t s ta n d , y o u c h a n g e a r o u n d a n d y o u g e t o u t o r
y o u s t a y i n t h e a e r o p l a n e fo r a b o u t 4 0 m in u te s o r s o a n d ( i n d is ti n c t )
n o b o d y a c t u a ll y c o m e s t h r o u g h a n d m a y b e o n e o r t w o p e o p l e w i ll g e t
o u t . S o i t w a s o n t h a t b a s is t h a t i t w a s f o u n d t h a t i t d i d n ’ t s e r v e t h e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
p u r p o s e a n d i t w a s n o t p r o fi t a b l e . S o t h a t w a s th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n t h a t Mr
B o s c h a d d o n e i n h is c a p a c i ty a s G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C o m m e r c i a l . S o h e
w e n t th e r e , h e d i d t h e in v e s ti g a t io n h e c a m e u p w i t h a r e p o r t to s a y
t h a t , t h a t d o e s n ’ t s e r v e u s a s w h a t i t w a s i n i ti a lly i n te n d e d t o , s o h e
m a d e – s t a r te d m a k in g r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s t h a t w e n e e d e d to c l o s e t h a t
a n d fi n d a n o t h e r s to p - o v e r w i t h i n A fr ic a w h ic h e n d e d u p b e i n g Ac c r a , s o
t h a t ’s h o w t h a t c a m e a b o u t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h i c h e m p l o y e e s w e r e t a r g e t e d b y
t h is – b y t h e s e m a t te r s ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s t h e – t h e c o u n tr y m a n a g e r

in S e n e g a l a n d a ls o it w a s a ls o K a l a w a , M o n w a b is i K a la w a w h o w a s t h e
p r e d e c e s s o r b e fo r e N i c o o n t h a t a n d M r Sy lv a i n B o s c o f c o u r s e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s M s N h a n t s i g a v e e v id e n c e b e fo r e th is

C o m m i s s i o n s o m e t i m e l a s t w e e k i f I ’ m n o t m is t a k e n o r a w e e k b e f o r e
t h a t t o th e e ffe c t t h a t a ll S A A e m p l o y e e s , e v e n t h o s e th a t w e r e n o t i n
s e n i o r p o s i ti o n s w e r e a t th is s ta g e e x p e c t e d to u n d e r g o s o m e s e c u r i ty
c le a r a n c e , d o y o u k n o w h o w t h a t c a m e a b o u t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o M s N h a n ts i c a m e l a t e r, w h a t

a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d w i t h th e S t a t e S e c u r i ty m a t t e r w a s , a s p a r t o f t h e s e
20

in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t w e r e c o m i n g w h i s t l e - b l o w e r, fo r e n s ic i n v e s t ig a ti o n s
a n d th is … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m i n g fr o m t h e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e in v e s ti g a t io n s t h a t w e r e i n i ti a t e d b y t h e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , t h a t w e r e i n it i a t e d b y t h e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
B o a r d , in c l u d i n g t h is o n e , o n M r Sy lv a i n B o s c , t h e n I r e c e iv e d a c a ll
one day from – somebody from State Security Agency saying that they
n e e d in f o r m a ti o n fr o m m e , a r e p o r t a b o u t t h e c l o s u r e o f t h e D a k a r r o u t e
a n d th e y n e e d e d i n fo r m a ti o n , p e r s o n a l p a r ti c u l a r s o f th e c o u n tr y
m a n a g e r a n d Mr B o s c a n d I s a id to t h i s p e r s o n , I m e a n o u t o f t h e b l u e
h e j u s t c a l ls m e , I s a i d , n o p u t i t i n w r it i n g , p u t t h a t r e q u e s t i n w r i ti n g .
H e t h e n p u t i t i n w r i ti n g , t h e r e q u e s t in w r i t in g a n d t h e n I a s k e d M r
L e o n A c ti n w h o w a s o n e o f t h e le g a l a d v is o r s i n t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t t o
s i t w i t h m e a n d I s h a r e d m y c o n c e r n s a b o u t th a t p a r tic u l a r r e q u e s t , to
10

s a y th a t t h e y ’r e r e q u e s ti n g a r e p o r t o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n w h ic h w a s
c o m m i s s io n e d i n te r n a l ly b y t h e i n t e r n a l s e c u r i ty d e p a r t m e n t a t S A A a n d
c o n fi d e n ti a l i n f o r m a ti o n r e l a ti n g to t h e t w o e m p lo y e e s . A n d t h e n I s a i d
t o Mr A c ti n , w h o a d v is e d m e le g a l ly t h e n h e s a y s n o , w e w il l p u t i t in
w r i t in g t o th e m t h a t w e a r e n o t a b le t o g iv e th e m t h e i n f o r m a ti o n
b e c a u s e t h a t in f o r m a ti o n , t h e r e p o r t is – i t ’s t h e r e p o r t th a t b e l o n g s t o
t h e c o m p a n y n o t b e l o n g s t o t h e m a n d w e a r e n o t a b l e t o d i v u lg e t h e
p e r s o n a l i n f o r m a ti o n o f t h e t w o e m p l o y e e s a n d t h e n w e a ls o r a is e d th e
is s u e o f t h e p r o to c o l t o s a y w e a ls o f i n d i t s tr a n g e t h a t i t d o e s n ’ t c o m e
t h r o u g h t h e n o r m a l p r o to c o l o f g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t t o g o v e r n m e n t

20

d e p a r t m e n t, i t c a m e fr o m h i m d ir e c t ly to m y s e l f . S o w e t h e n s e n t t h e
le t t e r t o h i m , a n d th e n a f t e r th a t , w e t h e n r e c e i v e d a le t t e r fr o m a D G , I
t h i n k o f S t a t e S e c u r it y a t t h a t ti m e M s D l o d l o – I t h i n k i ts Ay a n d a
D l o d l o w h o th e n s a i d w e n e e d t o p r o v id e t h e m w it h t h a t in f o r m a t io n a n d
I th in k t h e r e w a s c o m p la i n t t o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u s u r e th a t s h e w a s t h e – a t t h a t ti m e ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s b e c a u s e … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e w a s i n th a t p o s i ti o n ?

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e l e t te r is h e r e t h a t s h e s i g n e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V ZI N H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Can I refer you to paragraph 75 of your

a ffi d a v i t it ’s o n p a g e 2 1 , t h e i n i t ia ls o f th a t D lo d lo t h a t s i g n e d a r e o n
that paragraph and …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s i t ’s a le t t e r t h a t c a m e fr o m a

MV Dlodlo who was the DG.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s n o t – I t h i n k y o u s a i d Ay a n d a .

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o r r y it ’s n o t Ay a n d a i t ’s M V.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s w h y I w a s a s k i n g .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir, it ’s M V D l o d l o .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And then subsequent to that there

w a s a le t t e r a ls o th a t c a m e fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r o f S t a t e S e c u r i ty, M i n i s t e r
M a h l o b o , y e s it c a m e fr o m M i n is t e r M a h l o b o . S o a s p a r t o f w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g a t th a t ti m e , n o w w e ’r e a ll o n t h e a le r t , w e s e e w h a t’s g o in g
o n , fo r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a ti o n s , p e o p le a r e b e in g i n v e s ti g a t e d , p e o p le a r e
20

b e i n g s u s p e n d e d a n d a ll t h o s e t h i n g s a n d t h e n w e r e c e i v e d – I r e c e iv e d
a le t t e r fr o m th e C h a ir, t h e l e t te r c o m i n g fr o m

N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y t h a t

now we have to be vetted – the senior managers have to be vetted
m e a n i n g t h a t th e Ex c o m e m b e r s a n d th e s e c o n d le v e l n e e d t o g o
t h r o u g h t h e S t a te s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g a n d t h a t ’s h o w n o w t h a t c a m e a b o u t
a t t h a t ti m e a n d t h e n I f o r w a r d e d t h e l e t t e r t th e c o l le a g u e s , th e E x c o

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a n d a ls o t o s a y t h a t t h e s e c o n d li n e s h o u l d b e p u t a c r o s s , s h o u ld b e
v e t te d a n d s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t th e S t a t e S e c u r i ty r e p r e s e n t a ti v e c a m e
t o t h e c o m p a n y t o s ta r t s e tt i n g u p fo r t h is v e t ti n g a n d t h e y d i d a
w o r k s h o p fo r e m p l o y e e s to e x p l a i n i t t o e m p lo y e e s w h y t h e v e t ti n g h a d
t o h a p p e n . A l o t o f e m p l o y e e s w e r e v e r y s u s p ic io u s a n d u n h a p p y a n d
h a v i n g s e e n w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g , s o m e o f th e m w e r e n o t w il li n g t o
c o o p e r a t e a n d t h e y w e r e r a i s i n g is s u e s o f , t h a t t h e y ’v e b e e n t h e r e a
lo n g t i m e , a n d i t w a s n e v e r a c o n d i ti o n o f e m p l o y m e n t , t h e y w e r e n e v e r
a s k e d t o s o o n w h a t b a s is is th is n o w e n f o r c e d o n t h e m C h a ir.
10

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

D i d y o u p e r s o n a l ly c o m p ly w i th t h is

request?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I p e r s o n a ll y d i d n o t c o m p ly, I w a s

v e r y s u s p ic i o u s a n d w h e n I l o o k e d a t t h a t f o r m t o s a y w h a t w a s
r e q u ir e d I f e lt t h a t i t w a s q u i t e , q u i t e in tr u s iv e i n t o m y p e r s o n a l li f e a n d
I s h a r e d w i t h my f a m il y a n d t h e n m y h u s b a n d s a y s w e a r e g o in g
t h r o u g h a lo t o f c h a l le n g e s w i t h S A A , I’ m n o t p r e p a r e d t o b e p a r ty t o b e
c o m p lic a t e to w h a t h e v i e w e d a s a b u s i v e – a b u s e t o m e s o I d id n ’ t
c o m p ly a n d I r a is e d t h a t m a t t e r i n a n E x c o

m e e ti n g w h e n M u s a w a s

n o w th e a c ti n g C E O , I t h e n s h a r e d o p e n l y w i th m y c o l le a g u e s a n d th e
20

C E O t h a t I w il l n o t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Mr M u s a Z w a n e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M r M u s a Zw a n e y e s , I s a i d I

w o u ld n ’t b e p a r t ic ip a ti n g i n t h a t b a s e d o n th o s e r e a s o n s a n d I d i d n ’ t
u n t il I l e f t.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s o n p a r a g r a p h 7 4 y o u r e f e r to a n e m a il

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
that was forwarded to an employee of SAA, Mr Mnguni SSA by one of
your

c o ll e a g u e s

or

one

of

th e

employees

of

SAA

Mr

Matumi

R a m o g o b e d i( ? )
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M r M n g u n i i s t h e g e n tl e m a n w h o

c a l l e d m e f r o m t h e S t a t e A g e n c y r e q u e s ti n g t h is i n f o r m a t io n a n d th e n
t h is e m a il w a s f o r w a r d e d t o Mr M n g u n i , t h e s a m e M r M n g u n i w h o w a s
a s k in g f o r in f o r m a t io n fr o m m e b y a c o l le a g u e M a t u m i R a m o g o b e d i a n d
10

M a t u m i R a m o g o b e d i w a s o n e o f t h e e n tr y l e v e l m a n a g e r s w i t h i n t h e
c o m m e r c ia l
forwarded

department
to

Mr

and

Mnguni

there

w h ic h

was

include

correspondence
in f o r m a ti o n

fr o m

that

he

–

and

correspondence between Mr Bosc who was the General Manager
C o m m e r c i a l a n d Mr B a r r y P a r s o n s w h o w a s h e a d o f s tr a t e g y a n d P M O ,
P r o je c t M a n a g e m e n t O ff i c e a n d t h is w a s q u i t e o d d a n d a g a in s t th e
r u l e s o f th e c o m p a n y fo r a lo w e r l e v e l m a n a g e r t o b e s e n d i n g
c o n fi d e n ti a l in f o r m a ti o n t o a S t a t e o r g a n o r a n i n d iv id u a l to a S t a te
o r g a n in t h e o r g a n is a t i o n . G e n e r a l ly a s I a l l u d e d e a r li e r o n , i f t h e r e ’s
in f o r m a ti o n r e q u ir e d fr o m o n e d e p a r t m e n t t o a n o t h e r it w o u ld h a v e
20

e i t h e r c o m e fr o m t h e M i n i s te r t o t h e C h a i r o f th e B o a r d a n d th e C h a ir
g iv i n g i n s tr u c ti o n t o m e o r fr o m t h e D G – D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f t h a t
d e p a r t m e n t t o t h e C E O a n d t h e n t h e i n fo r m a t i o n w i ll b e c a s c a d e d
t h r o u g h t o th e o r g a n i s a t io n .

So Mr Matumi Ramogobedi sending

in f o r m a ti o n d ir e c tl y t o M r M n g u n i w a s h ig h l y ir r e g u la r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I: T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n o n p a r a g r a p h 8 4 – 8 4

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
y o u t a l k a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n s o n th e 1 9 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 , c a n y o u t a k e
u s to t h a t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

84?

Ye s th a t r e a d in g fr o 8 4 t o 8 5 a n d

summarise what was happening there.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , o n t h e 1 9 t h o f J a n u a r y i t w a s

m y fir s t d a y b a c k f r o m a n n u a l l e a v e a n d I w a s i n f o r m e d th a t t h e S t a t e
S e c u r i ty A g e n c y w e r e d o in g p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o g iv e a n u n d e r s t a n d in g t o
s t a ff m e m b e r s a s t o w h a t ’s th e p u r p o s e o f t h e S t a te v e t ti n g , w h y i t
10

n e e d s t o h a p p e n , w h a t ’s th e p r o c e s s th a t ’s g o i n g t o b e f o l lo w e d a n d
t h e n I w e n t a n d a tt e n d e d t h a t o n m y f ir s t d a y fr o m l e a v e o n t h e 1 9 t h o f
J a n u a r y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

2016 now?

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o r r y, 2 0 1 6 y e s , t h a t ’s 1 9 J a n u a r y

2 0 1 6 a n d a t t h a t – o n t h a t d a y, a ft e r I a t te n d e d t h e m e e ti n g a n d a t t h a t
m e e ti n g , a s p a r t o f w h e n w e w e r e a s k in g q u e s t io n s I t h e n s h a r e d w i th
t h e m t h is e x p e r i e n c e w i t h Mr M n g u n i fr o m t h e S t a t e A g e n c y S e c u r it y to
s a y t h a t I r e c e iv e d t h is a n d th is is w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d , y o u k n o w, i n th e
end
20

w e r e v e r t e d th e m t o f o ll o w p r o t o c o l , s o I w a s a s k i n g th e m , w a s

t h a t t h e c o r r e c t w a y o f d o i n g i t a n d h o w c o m e M r M n g u n i d id n ’t f o ll o w
t h a t p r o c e s s a n d t h e n t h e y c o n fir m e d t h a t n o , i t w a s t h e c o r r e c t w a y o f
d o i n g i t a n d a s k i n g t h e m t o p u t i t in w r i t in g b u t t h e w h o l e p r o t o c o l w a s
c o r r e c t t h a t e i th e r i t’s M in is t e r t o M in is t e r o r D G i t w il l c o m e a t t h a t
h i g h e r le v e l .

W e s h o u ld n ’t b e t a k in g i n s tr u c t io n s ju s t fr o m a n y b o d y

p h o n i n g a n d t h e n f o r w a r d in g i n f o r m a ti o n t o th e m .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u , a n d th e n t h e n e x t t o p ic t h a t y o u
d e a l w it h i s t h e d i s c i p li n a r y m a t te r s o f c e r ta i n e x e c u ti v e m e m b e r s a t
S A A , y o u s t a r t d e a li n g w i th th a t f r o m p a r a g r a p h 8 6 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t ,
w o u ld y o u p l e a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g t h e r e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O k a y o n t h e r e , C h a ir, - t h e C h a ir

is , h o w d o I p u t i t , v e r y c h a r m i n g p e r s o n M s M y e n i a n d v e r y m o t h e r ly
a n d s h e w o u ld s h o w e r p e o p l e w i t h p r a is e s a ll t h e t i m e b u t a s I g o t t o
k n o w t o w o r k w it h h e r, a s s o o n a s s h e s h o w e r e d m e o r a n y b o d y w i t h a
p r a is e , I k n e w d a n g e r w a s c o m i n g .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u f e e l l ik e s a y in g , w h a t a r e y o u g o in g t o a s k

for?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o C h a ir a s s o o n a s I w a s

s h o w e r e d w i th p r a is e d , I s a i d t o m y s e l f , w h a t is c o m i n g m y w a y n o w
a n d w h a t w a s c o m i n g m y w a y a n d w i t h o u t f a i l w a s th a t I w a s t h e n
a s k e d t o d is c i p l i n e M r M e y e r w h o w a s t h e C F O … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M e y e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Mr Wolf Meyer who was the CFO

a n d t h e b a s i s o f t h e d is c i p l in e w a s t h a t M r M e y e r h a d c a r r i e d a
r e c o r d i n g d e v ic e t o a m e e t in g a n d s o t h e r e w a s a l e g a l o p i n i o n a n d a n
20

in v e s t i g a t io n r e p o r t to t h a t e ff e c t . S o w h a t I n e e d e d t o d o a s n o w M s
M e y e r ’s l in e m a n a g e r w a s t o d is c i p l i n e M r M e y e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t h e n s a i d I w i ll d is c i p l in e Mr

M e y e r a n d I n e e d e d t o g e t t h e l e g a l o p in i o n a n d th e in v e s t i g a t io n r e p o r t
s o t h a t I s h o u l d b e a b le t o f o r m u l a t e th e c h a r g e s o n w h a t w il l b e t h e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
tr a n s g r e s s i o n s fo r Mr M e y e r.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d s o w h o h a d c o n d u c t e d th is r e p o r t w e r e
y o u t o ld ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : E N S .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s t o l d t h a t E N S h a d c o n d u c te d
a n in v e s ti g a t io n o n M r M e y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d th a t b e t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n t h a t y o u to l d m e a b o u t
e a r l ie r i n y o u r e v id e n c e w h e r e E N S w a s a s k e d t o i n v e s t ig a t e I th i n k t w o
10

or so people?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Th e o t h e r o n e w a s o n t h e – o n t h e
fi n a n c e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A s to w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e a n y

fi n a n c i a l tr a n s a c ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h is w a s a d i ff e r e n t o n e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h is o n e is th e i s s u e o f t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d e v ic e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e d e v ic e t h e r e c o r d i n g d e v i c e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I h a d s a id t o C h a i r y e s I w il l d o
it a n d t h e n t h e C h a ir s e n t a n e m a il t o t h a t e ff e c t a n d s a i d I m u s t s ig n
a n e m a i l t o c o n fir m t h a t I w i ll d is c ip li n e M r M e y e r. I s i g n e d t h e e m a i l

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
a n d t h e n I y o u k n o w s c a n n e d i t b a c k t o h e r a n d I s a i d C h a ir I a m w i ll in g
t o d is c ip li n e I h a v e c o n fi r m e d h e r e h o w e v e r I n e e d c o p y o f t h e l e g a l
o p i n i o n a n d o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n r e p o r t s o t h a t I c a n t h e n f o r m u l a t e t h e
charges.

A n d i t w a s n o t f o r th c o m i n g , i t n e v e r e v e r c a m e .

A n d th e n

i m m e d i a t e ly I th i n k m a y b e t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y o r s o .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A f t e r I h a v e r e s p o n d e d in w r i ti n g to
t h e C h a ir t h a t I w i ll d o it I r e c e iv e d a c a ll f r o m M r N ic k L i n n e l ll w h o w a s
t h e C h a ir ’s a d v is o r a n d I h a d to t a k e th e c a l l i n M s K u b u u k a ’s o ffic e ,
10

t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y b e c a u s e a t t h a t p o in t M s K u b u u k a w a s t h e o n ly
p e r s o n t h a t t h e C h a ir tr u s te d . S o I w e n t t o r e c e iv e a c a ll w e d i a ll e d M r
N i c k L i n n e ll l o n t h e c o m p a n y ’s s e c r e t a r y ’s la n d l in e . M r N i c k L i n n e ll l
s p o k e to m e . A n d M r N ic k L i n n e ll l w h e n h e s p o k e t o m e h e w a s v e r y,
v e r y c o n d e s c e n d i n g h e w a s s p e a k i n g d o w n o n m e a n d ju s t t e l li n g m e
h o w u s e l e s s a m I , h o w I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d my r o l e a s a C E O . M y r o le
is to t a k e b o a r d i n s tr u c t io n s n o t to s e c o n d g u e s s t h e b o a r d a n d t h a t
w h e n th e b o a r d a s k e d m e t o d o s o m e t h i n g I m u s t j u s t d o i t .

And he

w e n t o n a n d o n a n d o n o r w a y o v e r t w e n ty m in u t e s t h a t h e w a s j u s t y o u
k n o w a tt a c k i n g m e o n th e p h o n e . A n d a t t h e e n d o f it a l l I j u s t t h e n
20

s a i d y o u k n o w I h a v e h e a r d h i m , I c o n f ir m t h a t I w i ll d o it b u t I a m s t il l
w a i ti n g f o r t h e s e ts – t h i s w h a t e v e r in f o r m a ti o n a n d t h e n I l e f t h i m i n –
h i m o n t h e p h o n e w i t h M s K ib u u k a . I w e n t b a c k t o t h e o ff ic e a n d t h e n
w h e n I w e n t b a c k t o th e o ffic e I p e n n e d a n e m a il t o th e C h a ir to s a y I
a m c o m m i t t e d t o d is c i p l i n e M r M e y e r b u t I a m s ti ll a w a i ti n g t h e l e g a l
o p i n i o n a n d in v e s ti g a t in g r e p o r t . L a t e r o n to w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e d a y I

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
w e n t p a s t th e c o m p a n y ’s s e c r e ta r y ’s o ffi c e a n d I a s k e d h e r, I s a i d o h
h o w d i d h e g o o n w i th M r { i n d is t in c t ] f o r s o l o n g .

She just laughed.

S h e s a id y o u k n o w w h a t M r N ic k L in n e l ll s a i d . S h e s a y s y o u k n o w w h a t
S A A n e e d s m o r e p e o p l e li k e T h u li M p s h e b u t to u g h l u c k I w o r k f o r D u d u
M y e n e . Th a t i s w h a t v e r b a tiv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is w h a t h e s a i d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

D i d y o u e v e r h a v e s i g h t o f th is r e p o r t a n d

t h e le g a l o p i n i o n t h a t w a s r e f l e c ti n g …
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Never had sight of the report and

never had sight of the legal opinion that I was supposed to use to
d is c i p l i n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o y o u n e v e r c a r r i e d o u t t h is in s tr u c ti o n t o
d is c i p l i n e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I did not have any proof or any

m o t iv a t i o n t o d is c ip li n e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . T h e n Ms M p s h e t h e n e x t t o p ic
t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h i n y o u r a ffi d a v it is th a t o f 3 0 % …
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I a m s o r r y, d i d y o u h a v e – d i d y o u e v e r s u b s e q u e n t ly

h a v e a n o c c a s i o n to d i s c u s s w it h M s M y e n e t h is in s tr u c ti o n t h a t w a s
n e v e r c a r r i e d o u t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir I – o n t h e p h o n e a n d i n

w r i t in g I s a i d to M s M y e n e a t l e a s t t h is m i g h t - I m e a n I a m n o w – I w a s
n o w b e in g l a b e ll e d a s i n c o m p e te n t a n d I s a id a t le a s t o n th is H R
m a t t e r s y o u k n o w I a m c o m p e te n t .

T h a t is m y a r e a o f e x p e r tis e .

Page 155 of 307

So

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
work with me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e s a y i n g to h e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I s a i d t o h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And that – work with me.

n e e d to h a v e t h e b a s i s a n d I n e e d to k n o w -

Th a t I

you cannot just charge

b e c a u s e I n e e d t o k n o w w h a t th e l e g a l o p i n i o n s a y s , w h a t th e
in v e s t i g a t in g r e p o r t s a y s b e c a u s e th a t w i ll fo r m th e b a s is o f t h e
charges.
10

Yo u c a n n o t j u s t c h a r g e .

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o m e o n e fr o m a n y w h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. And what was her response then?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o i t w a s g o i n g to c o m e a n d i t

never came.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w a s t h a t – w a s t h a t s o o n a f t e r s h e h a d t o ld y o u

a b o u t th is – a s k e d y o u t o i n v e s t ig a t e – t o d is c i p l i n e M s M e y e r o r w a s it
q u i te s o m e ti m e a f t e r ? B e c a u s e I a m l o o k in g a t i n t h e e n d d i d t h e t w o
o f y o u n e v e r ta lk a b o u t h e y t h a t i n s tr u c ti o n j u s t fe ll a w a y o r a n y t h i n g
lik e th a t ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o w e d i d – w e s p o k e C h a ir. T h e r e
w a s a n u r g e n c y.

T h e r e w a s e v e n a n u r g e n c y f o r m e t o c o m m i t in

w r i t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o o n a f t e r y o u h a d b e e n t o l d t o d is c i p l i n e .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Him.

I m e a n w h e n y o u h a d n o t r e c e iv e d t h e r e p o r t

a ft e r s o m e ti m e i t m u s t h a v e b e e n c l e a r t o h e r n o t h i n g w a s g o in g to
h a p p e n b e c a u s e y o u – s h e w a s n o t p r o v i d i n g y o u w i t h th e r e p o r t a n d
w i t h th e l e g a l o p i n io n a n d I a m w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r th e t w o o f y o u e v e r
d is c u s s e d

much

l a te r

and

she

in d ic a t e d

a c c e p ta n c e

that

no

I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r i n a b il i ty to a c t o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M y f o l l o w u p e m a il s to h e r w e r e le f t
unanswered.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To s a y I a m s ti ll w a i ti n g , I a m s ti ll
w a i ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I a m s t ill w a i ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

B u t th a t is h o w it d i e d i t s n a t u r a l d e a t h t h a t

w h o le is s u e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o t q u it e b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Not quite?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : L a t e r o n i t w a s …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u w il l c o m e t o i t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s o n e o f t h e a l le g a ti o n s o f

m is c o n d u c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : L a t e r o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .

Page 157 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

S o t h is w a s o n e o f t h e i s s u e s t h a t h a s –

w e r e s a i d to h a v e b e e n – y o u r f a i lu r e t o t a k e in s tr u c ti o n fr o m th e
board?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e a l le g a ti o n s
la t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U TH E L E Z I : A n d th e n y o u – o n – th e n e x t to p ic t h a t y o u
10

d e a l w it h i s t h a t o f B B B E E s e t a s i d e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

D o c to r D a h w a t o u c h e d o n t h i s to p i c o n

Fr id a y a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. L e t u s tr y a n d r e c a p M s M p s h e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e h a v e b e e n n o w d u r in g y o u r a c ti n g s ti n t a s C E O
o f S A A a n u m b e r o f i n s tr u c ti o n s g iv e n t o y o u f o r s o m e d i s c i p li n a r y
a c ti o n t o b e ta k e n a g a i n s t s o m e b o d y, s o m e o r o t h e r p e r s o n .

One of

t h e m w a s M r B o s c h a n d y o u s a id h e w a s c le a r e d . B u t u lt i m a t e ly – b u t
20

a ft e r h e w a s c le a r e d t h e b o a r d o r Ms M y e n e o r M s K w i n a n a s a id h is
s u s p e n s i o n s h o u ld n o t b e li f t e d a n d h e h a d to s ta y a t h o m e f o r a l o n g
ti m e b e fo r e r e a c h i n g s o m e a g r e e m e n t t o l e a v e . A n d t h e n y o u h a d b e e n
a s k e d t o a p p o in t Mr P h o h l e l i in c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e th e r e w a s n o
v a c a n c y a n d y o u d id n o t c o m p ly a n d u l t i m a t e l y th a t w a s l e ft l ik e t h a t .
Is t h a t r ig h t?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e a s k e d t o a p p o i n t …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C a p t a in M a n e n ts a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e h i m t h e r e w a s a n o th e r o n e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M a m a s h e l a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M a m a s h e l a .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M a m a s h e l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s y o u r e f u s e d a n d u l ti m a t e l y n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d
a b o u t t h a t, is th a t r i g h t?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n y o u w e r e i n s tr u c t e d o n th e b a s is o f a b o a r d
r e s o l u ti o n t o a p p o i n t C a p ta i n M a n e n t s a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n to t h e p o s i ti o n o f H e a d o f Fl ig h t O p e r a ti o n s s o th a t
h e w o u l d h o ld b o th p o s it i o n s o f C h i e f P il o r a n d H e a d o f Fl i g h t
O p e r a t io n s . Yo u s o u g h t to c o m p ly w it h th a t o n e b u t th e w h o l e t h i n g f e l l
a p a r t b e c a u s e h e c o u l d n o t c o p e a n d h e s a i d h e h a d n o t a s k e d f o r b o th
p o s i ti o n s a n y w a y. Is t h a t r ig h t ?

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And am I missing out any other one?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e ll M r M e y e r n o w.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e a s k e d t o d is c i p li n e h i m
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e i n s tr u c t e d t o d is c ip li n e h i m . Yo u s a i d b u t I
w a n t t h e b a s is . I a m w i ll in g t o c a r r y o u t t h e in s tr u c ti o n b u t I n e e d t o
h a v e t h e b a s is a n d l e g a l o p i n io n a n d th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n r e p o r t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d i t d id n o t c o m e .

T h e n – a n d t h a t fe ll b y th e

w a y s id e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s a s w e ll a s t h e f a il u r e to s i g n t h e

B o q w a n a B e n d s le t t e r o f e n g a g e m e n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e w a s t h e – ja y o u w e r e i n s tr u c te d t o s i g n t h e
Boqwana Bends agreement and you refused and then Ms Kwinana
s ig n e d i t h e r s e lf
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e g e ts t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t a ll o f – a ll o f th e s e w e r e
m a t t e r s w h e r e e i th e r M s M y e n e o r M s K w i n a n a w e r e g iv in g y o u
in s t r u c t i o n s b u t w i th o u t a p r o p e r b a s i s t o fo r c e y o u t o a c t in
a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th e i n s tr u c t io n s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t a fa ir u n d e r s ta n d in g o f y o u r e v id e n c e o r w h a t

20

evidence says?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

in s t r u c t i o n s w e r e g iv e n b u t w it h o u t
CHAIRPERSON: A proper basis.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P r o p e r b a s is
CHAIRPERSON: Because if there was a proper basis ..

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T h a t th e

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w o u l d h a v e i m p l e m e n t e d i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y c o u l d t h e n ta k e a c ti o n a g a i n s t y o u i f y o u w e r e

n o t c a r r y i n g o u t i n s tr u c ti o n s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

We then move to the

is s u e o f 3 0 % B B B E E s e t a s id e . Te ll m e w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g
o f t h is p r o c e s s w h e n it s t a r t e d ?

How did it start and what was your

u n d e r s t a n d in g th e r e o f?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : In t h e S t a te o f t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s
o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 t h e t h e n Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a m e n t io n e d t h e i s s u e o f b l a c k
in d u s tr i a lis t a n d s a y in g t h a t w e n e e d t o e m p o w e r b l a c k b u s i n e s s e s ,
b l a c k in d u s tr ia lis t s a n d m e n ti o n e d th e is s u e o f a 3 0 % s e t a s id e
in d i c a t in g t h a t b l a c k b u s i n e s s e s s h o u l d b e o ffe r e d y o u k n o w a t 3 0 % s e t
a s i d e w i th i n a c o r p o r a t e S o u th A fr ic a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I s u p p o s e in c l u d i n g g o v e r n m e n t.

S o t h a t w a s t h e b a s is . A n d th e n th e C h a ir th e n i n d ic t e d th a t w e w il l
h a v e to i m p l e m e n t th a t 3 0 % s e t a s i d e o n B E E o n a l l t h e tr a n s a c t i o n s
20

w i t h i n th e c o m p a n y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . S o r r y w e r e t h e r e a n y g u i d e li n e s t h a t
w e r e n o t s e t a t S A A t h a t y o u h a d t o f o ll o w i n i m p l e m e n t in g th is
process? How was it done?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
that -

T h e r e w e r e n o g u i d e li n e s p e r s e

b e c a u s e t h e B E E is a l a w w h ic h is – i t i s t h e c u s t o d i a n is a

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
d e p a r t m e n t o f tr a d e a n d i n d u s tr y a n d t h e y t h e n d o t h e l a w, t h e y a m e n d
t h e la w a c c o r d i n g l y. S o a t th a t ti m e i t h a d n o t b e e n m a d e in t o l a w a n d
w e h a d n o t c h a n g e d o u r p o li c y b e c a u s e i t h a d n o t b e e n m a d e i n t o l a w.
S o th e p r a c tic a l i m p lic a ti o n a n d a p p li c a t i o n a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e th e
C h a ir w a s s p e a r h e a d i n g w h a t s h e u s e d t o c a ll m e e ti n g s w i t h s e r v i c e
providers

or

p o t e n ti a l

s e r v ic e

p r o v id e r s

to

share

about

the

o p p o r t u n i ti e s o f t h e 3 0 % B E E s e t a s id e a n d a ls o …
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s s o d o y o u k n o w h o w w il l t h e s e s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r s b e a p p o in t e d , h o w w e r e t h e y i d e n ti fi e d ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th e C h a ir w il l d e c i d e w i t h M s

K w in a n a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W h o n e e d s t o b e i n v i te d .

Th e y

w e n t o n r o a d s h o w s a n d t h e y w ill t h e n g i v e a lis t t o e i t h e r c o m m u n i ty
m a n a g e r r e p o r ti n g i n t o p r o c u r e m e n t o r in t o t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t
O ff ic e r D o c t o r D a h w a a t t h e ti m e t o s a y t h a t , w e a r e g o i n g to D u r b a n
in v i te t h e s e p e o p le . W e a r e g o in g t o P E w e i n v i te t h e s e p e o p le . W e
a r e g o i n g to M p u m a l a n g a y o u i n v it e t h e s e p e o p l e .

So they were

in it i a t i n g t h e r o a d s h o w s a n d t h e n i n – i n v i ti n g p e o p l e t o t h e r o a d
20

shows.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s a n d y o u e n te r e d a m e m o r a n d u m o f

u n d e r s t a n d in g

tell

w it h

DTI,

us

about

that

memorandum

of

u n d e r s t a n d in g , w h a t d id i t e n ta il ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A s p a r t o f th is i n d u s tr i a li s a t io n

b l a c k i n d u s tr ia li s t p r o g r a m t h e C h a ir th e n s i g n s a m e m o r a n d u m o f

Page 162 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
u n d e r s t a n d in g w i t h a D e p u ty M i n i s t e r, M r M z w a n d i le M a s in a fr o m D T I
w h o w a s D e p u t y M i n is te r a t th e ti m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: What was the name?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r Mz w a n d i l e M a s i n a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s t h a t is M z w a n d i l e M a s i n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e w a s D e p u ty M i n is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d

I n d u s tr y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . D o y o u w a n t u s t o g o i n t o t h e
M O U C h a ir ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I: Ye s is i t th a t d o c u m e n t th a t a p p e a r s u n d e r
Ta b 4 2 p a g e 3 4 3 i t is o n A n n e x u r e D D 1 5 [ b ] C h a ir. Fi l e B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e p a g e n u m b e r 3 ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 3 4 3 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M s M y e n e i s th a t t h e M O U t h a t y o u s i g n e d w i t h
t h e D T I?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M s M p s h e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h s o r r y I d o n o t k n o w h o w I c a l le d y o u b u t
M s M p s h e is t h a t th e M O U y o u r e f e r r e d to ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I a p o lo g is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m is s e d th a t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I u s e d t h e w r o n g n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u f o ll o w i n g M s H o f m e y r a s w e l l .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

A n d I c a ll e d h e r M s M y e n e I d o n o t k n o w

h o w I r e a c h e d a t th a t p o in t . I a p o l o g is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll ja o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h is i s th e M O U .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Th a t w a s s i g n e d b y M s M y e n e a n d
t h e D e p u ty M i n is t e r a t t h e t i m e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d o n t h e fr o n t o f t h a t p a g e – o f t h a t
M O U o n t h e f ir s t p a g e 3 4 3 t h e n a m e a p p e a r s a s M z w a n d i le M a s i n a .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : F o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d In d u s tr y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C o u ld y o u p l e a s e s u m m a r i s e f o r u s w h a t

t h is M O U e n ta il e d ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e M O U e n t a i l e d t h a t S A A h a d a n
– a b o u t 1 0 b i ll io n a n n u a ll y o n p r o c u r e m e n t o n g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s a n d
t h a t th a t n e e d e d t o b e m a d e a c c e s s i b l e t o a b r o a d e r e c o n o m ic
p a r t ic ip a ti o n a n d a l s o i t w a s a b o u t s m a l l a n d m e d i u m s iz e b u s in e s s e s ,
b l a c k w o m e n , d is a b le d w o m e n a n d M K v e t e r a n s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n th e r o l e D T I in

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
the process?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Th e r o l e o f D T I i n t h i s p r o c e s s w i ll
b e t o p r o v i d e tr a i n in g .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s s is t in th e p r o v is i o n o f f u n d in g to
t h o s e b u s in e s s e s , h is t o r i c a lly d is a d v a n t a g e d a n d t h a t a n d th e n a ls o
f a c i li t a te d is c u s s i o n w i t h a ir p o r ts c o m p a n y A C S A a n d in tu r n l ic e n c i n g
o f n e w p a r t ic ip a n ts .

A n d th e n a l s o t o a s s is t in t h e e ffo r t s to f o r m

p a r t n e r s h i p s w i th o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t a n d s t a t e e n ti t ie s i n
10

r e l a ti o n t o t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e tr a n s f o r m a ti o n i n i t ia t iv e s .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h i le y o u w e r e a c t in g a s a C E O i n
2 0 1 5 y o u w e r e a s k e d t o p r e p a r e a p r e s e n t a ti o n t o M K v e te r a n s . C o u l d
y o u t e ll – p le a s e te ll u s w h a t tr a n s p ir e d d u r in g th a t e n g a g e m e n t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s w h il s t t h e r e w a s – t h e C h a ir

w a s a n d M s K w i n a n a m o s t ly w e r e d o i n g t h is r o a d s h o w s s h e t h e n c a m e
o n e d a y a n d s a i d t o m e I n e e d e d t o p r e p a r e a p r e s e n t a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t M s K w in a n a o r M s M y e n e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r My e n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s th e C h a ir h a d r e q u e s t e d m e to
p r e p a r e a p r e s e n ta t io n t h a t s h e w a n t e d m e t o p r e s e n t a t a m e e ti n g
la t e r in t h e w e e k . I t h in k i t w a s t o b e o n a Fr id a y t h e n t h e p e o p l e w h o
were coming was MK veterans.
p r e s e n t a ti o n .

So she wanted us to prepare a

So I then approached Mr Thapelo Lehasa who was the

Tr a n s f o r m a t io n M a n a g e r.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
Procurement

M a n a g e r,

And Doctor Dahwa who was the

Procurement

O ffi c e r

–

C h ie f

Pr o c u r e m e n t

O ff ic e r. I th e n a s k e d t h e m w h a t p r e s e n t a t io n s h a v e t h e y b e e n d o i n g a t
t h e s e r o a d s h o w s . T h e y t h e n s a id t h a t n o t h e r e w a s – it w a s ta lk in g o ff
t h e c u ff m o s t ly a n d m o s t ly it w a s t h e C h a ir o r M s K w i n a n a o r b o t h o f
t h e m t a lk i n g a t th e p r e s e n t a t i o n s . S o – b e c a u s e I d id n o t w a n t to – I
w a n t e d t o a li g n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e n h e t h e n t o ld m e t h a t n o

t h e r e is – t h e r e w a s n o th i n g fo r m a l th a t h a d b e e n p r e p a r e d .

I said

o k a y t h e n , t h e n I a m g o in g to g iv e th e m a g u i d e l i n e a n d o v e r v i e w o f a
fr a m e w o r k o f h o w I w a n t t h i s p r e s e n t a ti o n to b e d o n e .
fr a m e w o r k w a s t o b e w h a t i s S A A ?

And the

W h a t a r e th e o p p o r t u n i t ie s o f

procurement?

U p s t r e a m , d o w n s t r e a m a ll th e o p p o r t u n i ti e s , a l l t h e

s e r v ic e s

have

that

been

o ffe r e d

where

th e r e

are

o p p o r tu n i t ie s .

B e c a u s e w it h S A A b e in g t h e n a tu r e o f t h e b u s in e s s a lo t o f t h e t h i n g s
20

lik e a e r o p l a n e s a n d i ts p r o c u r e d o v e r s e a s s o i t is – i t c a n n o t b e
lo c a lis e d p e r s e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o w e th e n o u tl i n e d t h a t a n d t h e

f o ll o w i n g o n th a t I t h e n a s k e d th e m t h e s e c o n d p a r t o f th e p r e s e n t a ti o n
s h o u l d b e a b o u t w h a t a r e t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s to b e a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r f o r

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
– a t S A A ? A n d t h e n t h e t h ir d p a r t w a s h o w w il l S A A a s s is t t h e m t o g e t
in t o t h e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r lis t s o th a t th e y w i ll a l s o h a v e a c c e s s to –
o n c e y o u a r e o n th e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r l is t a ll t h e t e n d e r s t h a t a r e in li n e
w i t h y o u r a r e a o f s p e c ia li ty y o u w il l b e i n fo r m e d a b o u t t h e m .
p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s d o n e .

S o th e

Fr i d a y m o r n i n g w e m e t v e r y e a r ly i n t h e

m o r n in g w i th M r D a h w a a n d Mr L e h a s a w e r e f i n e d th e p r e s e n ta t io n a n d
t h e n I t h e n a s k e d t h a t M r L e h a s a a n d M r D a h w a d o th e p r e s e n ta t io n ,
A n d th e n D o c t o r D a h w a t h e n s a i d h e a s k e d to b e r e c u s e d b e c a u s e h e is
ju s t g o i n g t h r o u g h a n is s u e t h a t h e r e c e iv e d a n e m a il fr o m M s K w in a n a
10

the previous evening.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o h e r e – h e s a i d h e a s k e d m e t o
recuse him.

S o I t h e n s a i d t h a t is f in e h e c a n b e r e c u s e d .

So Mr

T h a p e l o L e h a s a w i ll b e t h e o n e th a t w i ll d o th e p r e s e n t a ti o n . A n d t h e n
t h e C h a ir a r r iv e d a n d s a id C a r e y o u r e a d y a n d I s a i d y e s I a m r e a d y
C h a ir.

S h e s a y s a r e y o u p r e s e n ti n g ?

p r e s e n t in g .

I s a id C h a i r n o I a m n o t

Th e r e is a t r a n s f o r m a ti o n m a n a g e r a n d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t

m a n a g e r w h o h a v e p r e p a r e d t h e p r e s e n t a t i o n u n d e r m y s u p e r v is i o n a n d
t h e Tr a n s f o r m a t io n M a n a g e r w i ll p r e s e n t .
20

He says why?

b e c a u s e t h e y a r e t h e s u b je c t m a t te r e x p e r t s .

I says no

A s a C E O I n e e d to

provide guidance and I need to provide oversight but I do not have to
b e p h y s ic a ll y d o i n g t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n . A n d I s a i d t o h e r, lo o k I t h in k y o u
w i ll b e p r o u d o f t h is p r e s e n t a t i o n b e c a u s e t h e n i t w il l f o r m a b a s i s o f
the roadshows going forward.

S o t h e n w e g e t r e a d y, w e w a i t e d t h e y

w e r e r u n n i n g la t e b u t fi n a ll y t h e m e e t in g s t a r t e d a b o u t a n h o u r o r t w o

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
la t e r a n d a r r iv e s M r K e b b y M a p h a ts o e w h o w a s t h e D e p u ty M i n is t e r o f
M il i ta r y Ve te r a n s a n d D e fe n c e a n d a c c o m p a n ie d h i m w a s M s D e s Va n
R o o y e n a n d t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r g e n t le m a n a n d a n o th e r l a d y. T h e y w e r e
a l l c o m i n g fr o m t h e M K Ve t e r a n s . A n d th e n – a n d t h e n …
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y a n d w h e r e w a s t h is m e e ti n g ? Wa s i t
at SAA/
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s a t S A A i n t h e b o a r d r o o m o n
t h e 6 t h F l o o r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s p r o c e e d .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t h e e x e c u tiv e fl o o r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e m e e t in g w a s t h e r e s o th e y h a d
– t h e C h a ir h a d a r r a n g e d f o r th e m t o b e g iv e n a c c e s s t o c o m e i n to t h e
b u il d in g t o c o m e t o t h e m e e ti n g . S o t h e y c a m e to th e m e e t i n g a n d t h e n
m o s t e x e c u ti v e c o m m i t t e e m e m b e r s w h o w e r e p r e s e n t a t t h e t i m e c a m e
t o t h e m e e t in g .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d in t h e m e e ti n g I t h e n y o u k n o w
C h a ir i n tr o d u c e d m e a n d th e n w e i n tr o d u c e d t h e c o ll e a g u e s a n d t h e

20

v is it o r s th a t h a d c o m e a n d th e r e a s o n w h y I d id n o t fo r g e t M r D e s Va n
R o o y e n w a s b e c a u s e h is n a m e d id n o t a l ig n to h o w h e l o o k e d s o I –
y o u k n o w I p a i d p a r t ic u l a r a tt e n ti o n w h e n h e s a i d t h a t – h is n a m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d th e n w e a l l i n tr o d u c e d

o u r s e lv e s a n d t h e n I th e n i n tr o d u c e d th a t M r T h a p e l o L e h a s a w il l d o th e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
p r e s e n t a ti o n . A n d Mr T h a p e lo L e h a s a d id t h e p r e s e n ta t io n i n d e e d . A t
t h e e n d o f t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h e C h a ir s t o o d u p a n d s a i d , j u s t lo o k a t
y o u t h e s e p e o p l e d i e d fo r u s to g e t o u r fr e e d o m a n d t h e n a l l y o u w a n t
t o d o is t o t e l l u s a b o u t p o l ic i e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s a n d a l l th a t . T h e y a r e
n o t in t e r e s t e d i n p o l ic ie s a n d p r o c e d u r e s .

W h y d o y o u n o t t e ll t h e m

w h a t is th e b u d g e t o f t h e je t fu e l p e r a n n u m f o r S A A ? I s a i d C h a ir, I d o
n o t t h i n k i t i s a p p r o p r i a t e to b e t a l k i n g a b o u t b u d g e ts w i t h p o te n ti a l
s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s . S o i t i s a n in t e r n a l m a t te r a n d I d i d n o t m e n ti o n i t .
A n d t h e n s h e w e n t o n a n d o n a n d s a i d , y o u k n o w p e o p l e d ie d a n d h a v e
10

s u ff e r e d a n d th e n a ls o m e n ti o n e d th a t – p o i n t i n g a t m e in h e r r o le i s
t h a t s h e i s a ls o G e n e r a l M a n a g e r H u m a n R e s o u r c e s a n d m a y b e w e
s h o u l d m a k e a 3 0 % s e t a s i d e o f a ll t h e v a c a n c i e s f o r t h e c h i ld r e n o f M K
v e t e r a n s . S o – s o t h a t is w h a t s h e s a i d a n d th e n w e n t t o t h e e n d o f th e
m e e ti n g .

A t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g I th e n s a i d th a t I w il l m a k e

a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r Mr T h a p e l o L e h a s a th e Tr a n s f o r m a t io n M a n a g e r a n d
D o c to r D a h w a t o m e e t w i t h t h e M K Ve t e r a n s i n p a r t ic u l a r M r D e s Va n
R o o y e n t o a s s is t t h e m i n h e l p i n g th e m t o r e g is t e r t h e ms e lv e s a n d a ls o
in d i c a t in g w h a t i s th e ir a r e a o f e x p e r ti s e t h a t t h e y w il l b e a b l e t o
p a r t ic ip a t e i n s o t h a t w e c a n t h e m o n th e d a ta b a s e .
20

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: I am sorry Ms Mpshe how did you respond
t o th e s e e v e n ts w h e n C h a ir w a s s a y in g a l l t h e s e to y o u th a t y o u s h o u l d
s e t a s i d e 3 0 % o f t h e j o b s f o r t h e c h il d r e n o f t h e M K Ve t e r a n s . G iv i n g
t h e m t h e v a l u e o f t h e b u d g e t t h a t y o u w e r e h o l d i n g a t S A A a t t h e ti m e .
How was your response to all this?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o m y r e s p o n s e w a s a s h o r t o n e t o

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
s a y th a t i t w a s n o t a p p r o p r i a te t o b e t e ll in g p r o s p e c t iv e s e r v ic e
providers about the budget and I did not comment to the rest of all the
o th e r i n f o r m a ti o n . I d i d n o t c o m m e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I: O k a y t h a n k y o u . T h e n o n p a r a g r a p h 9 3 y o u
d e a l w it h t h e is s u e o f B id A ir, w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll l e t u s h e a r – h a s t h a t m e e t in g e n d e d ? H o w d i d
t h a t m e e ti n g e n d ? H o w d i d i t e n d , t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e m e e t in g e n d e d w i t h m e l e a v i n g
t h e C h a ir a n d t h e v is it o r s w i t h th e p o i n t o f s a y i n g t h a t I w i ll g e t t h e
10

Tr a n s f o r m a t io n M a n a g e r a n d t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r t o m e e t
w i t h Mr Va n R o o y e n a n d t o a s s is t t h e m t o r e g is t e r o n t h e d a t a b a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a ft e r w a r d s , l a te r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A f t e r w a r d s y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o t h a t th e y c a n b e o n t h e d a ta

base.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d p a r t o f t h a t w a s t o s a y w h a t is
t h e ir a r e a o f e x p e r t is e . S o th a t w h e n t h e y r e g is t e r t h e y r e g is t e r to s a y
20

t h is is o u r a r e a o f e x p e r tis e s o t h a t w h e n t h e t e n d e r s c o m e o u t s p e c i fi c
t o t h a t a r e a th e y w i ll b e i n fo r m e d s o t h a t t h e y c a n p a r t ic ip a te .
was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H o w t h e m e e t in g e n d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.

Page 170 of 307

That

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d t h e n y o u w e r e in f o r m e d b y y o u r

c o l l e a g u e M r W o lf M e y e r a b o u t t h e m e e t i n g t h a t t h e y h a d w i t h B i d A ir.
W h a t d i d y o u – w h a t d o y o u k n o w a b o u t t h i s m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Mr M e y e r s c a m e b a c k t o – fr o m a

m e e ti n g a n d s a i d t o h e o h h e i s s o – h e h a s n e v e r b e e n s o
embarrassed.

B u t h e w a s a s k e d t o a t te n d t h i s m e e t in g w i th M s

K w in a n a . A n d t h is m e e t in g w a s w i th B i d A ir t h e c o m p a n y c a l le d B i d A ir
w h ic h w a s o p e r a t in g i n t h e Av i a ti o n S p a c e h e n c e th e w o r d a ir t o – a n d
w h e n t h e y w e n t to – t h e y m e t w i t h t h e e x e c u tiv e o f B id A ir a n d M s
10

K w in a n a th e n in s tr u c te d B i d A ir, t o l d t h e m a b o u t t h e 3 0 % s e t a s id e a n d
h o w t h e y a r e g o in g t o i m p le m e n t i t a n d t h e n i n s tr u c t e d B id A i r t o p u t
3 0 % o f t h e ir s h a r e o n t h e te n d e r th a t t h e y h a v e w i th S A A s e t is a s i d e t o
a b l a c k c o m p a n y o r a b l a c k p a r t n e r o r p a r t n e r. S o w h e n h e c a m e b a c k
h e s a i d t h a t – s o t h e p e o p l e a t B i d A ir w e r e l is te n in g a n d th e n t h e y
w e r e a ls o tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d h o w is t h i s g o i n g to p a n o u t . T h e y a ls o
h i g h l ig h t th e f a c t t h a t t h e y w e r e a n u m b e r 1 – t h e y w e r e a c c r e d i te d a
L e v e l 1 B E E w h i c h is th e h i g h e s t le v e l i n te r ms o f B E E a c c r e d i t a t i o n .
S o t h e y j u s t w e r e c o n f u s e d w i th t h is n e w i n fo r m a ti o n a n d h o w is th e
in f o r m a ti o n g o i n g to a c tu a lly b e p r a c t ic a l ly i m p le m e n t e d . A n d f o ll o w i n g

20

o n th a t m e e t in g M r M e y e r c a m e a n d s h o w e d m e a l e tt e r th a t c a m e fr o m
B i d A ir c o n fi r m in g t h e m e e ti n g a n d c o n fir m i n g t h e d is c u s s i o n s a n d t h e y
w e r e a s k i n g c e r t a i n q u e s ti o n s . T h e t w o q u e s ti o n s t h a t I r e m e m b e r o ff
h a n d w a s w h a t i s n o w g o i n g t o h a p p e n t o t h e ir B E E s t a t u s a s t h e y a r e
now Level 1 BEE?

A n d c a n S A A p l e a s e p r o v i d e w h o t h e p a r tn e r s h ip

w i ll – w h o t h e p a r t n e r w i ll b e o r s h o u l d t h e y c o m e u p w i t h a p a r t n e r a n d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
h o w is t h e p r a c t ic a l i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h a t is g o i n g to b e ?
shared the letter with me but he took the letter with him.

So he
He just

s h o w e d m e a n d s a i d , t h i s is r e a ll y w h a t I w a s a fr a i d a n d I d o n o t k n o w
h o w w e a r e g o in g t o g e t o u t o f th is b e c a u s e n o w B i d A ir h a s p u t i t i n
w r i t in g a n d th e y d o n o t s e e m t o b e k e e n o n t h i s b u t l e g a l ly t h is d o e s
n o t p u t u s i n a v e r y s tr o n g p o s i t io n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s l e t t e r w h a t e x a c t ly w a s i t c o n fi r mi n g w a s s a i d to
t h e m t o B i d A ir ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h a t w a s s a i d to B i d A ir t h a t S A A
is g o i n g to b e i m p le m e n t in g t h e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e t o a l l t h e s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r s w h o h a v e c o n tr a c ts w i t h S A A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A n d B i d A ir h a d – w a s o n e o f t h e m ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s B i d Ai r w a s s u b c o n tr a c t e d t o

S w is s p o r t f o r g r o u n d h a n d li n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y, o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C h a i r i f I m a y r e f e r Ms M p s h e t o t h e s a id

le t t e r. M s M p s h e w o u l d y o u p l e a s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o , n o M s B u t h e l e z i . I w a n t e d h e r t o f in is h
20

t e ll m e a b o u t i t w i t h o u t l o o k i n g a t t h e d o c u m e n ts .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h , o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n a f t e r w a r d s s h e c a n lo o k a t t h e d o c u m e n ts .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It c a n b e i m p o r t a n t t o k n o w t h i s is h e r r e c o ll e c t io n …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : In d e p e n d e n t o f d o c u m e n t s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I u n d e r s t a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n w e c a n g o t o d o c u m e n ts a f t e r w a r d s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O k a y.

The purpose – the purpose

o f t h e m e e t in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

Was that SAA is now going to

i m p l e m e n t a 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s i d e a s s e t b y t h e Pr e s id e n t a t t h e S t a t e
o f t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 .

So then now as the Board

M e m b e r s a r e g o i n g t o t h e – a l l t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s w h o h a v e
c o n tr a c ts w i t h S A A t o n o w i n f o r m t h e m t h a t th e y w i ll h a v e t o d o t h i s 3 0
p e r c e n t s e t- a s i d e w i th t h e c o n tr a c ts t h a t th e y a lr e a d y h a v e r u n n i n g w i th
SAA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w a s t h e c o n te x t I t h i n k M r D a h w a – M r D a h w a
a n d m a y b e a n o th e r w i t n e s s …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

M a y h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t th is 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t - a s i d e

c e r t a i n l y Mr D a h w a – D r D a h w a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t w a s Mr D a h w a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D r D a h w a a n d – b u t n o w t h is w a s t h e c o n t e x t . I t w a s
not …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t w a s th e c o n t e x t .
CHAIRPERSON:

It was not just one or two service providers.

Page 173 of 307

They

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
w e r e g o i n g to a ll o f t h e m w h o h a d – w h o a lr e a d y h a d c o n tr a c ts w i t h
SAA?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s a y i n g t h a t f o l lo w in g u p o n th e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t’s
s p e e c h t h e y w o u ld h a v e t o b e 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s id e o n e x is t in g – e v e n
o n e x is ti n g c o n tr a c ts f o r B E E ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d – a n d B i d A i r h a d p u t th is in w r i ti n g to

c o n fir m w h a t t h e y w e r e to l d ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And Mr Meyer was uncomfortable in saying how are

we going to get out of this?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h e l e t te r t h a t
a p p e a r s o n E X H I B I T D D 1 5 B o n p a g e 3 - 4 - 9 . It is u n d e r Ta b …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th a t is c o r r e c t y e s .

one.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 4 3 .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I s t h a t t h e l e t t e r th a t y o u …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is th e l e t te r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : R e c e i v e d fr o m B i d Ai r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .

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That is the

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: What is the page number?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 3 - 4 - 9 – 3 - 4 - 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t m e g e t th e r e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M s M p s h e w o u ld p l e a s e r e a d th e i m p o r t a n t
p o i n t s t h a t w e r e r a is e d b y B i d A ir o n t h is d o c u m e n t in t o th e r e c o r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e fi r s t p a r t is t h a t th e y c o n f ir m

t h e m e e ti n g h e l d o n 2 3 J u n e 2 0 1 5 w it h th e M a n a g e m e n t Te a m .
“ S A A’s r e q u e s ts fo r t h e t r a n s f e r o f 3 0 p e r c e n t o f
B i d Ai r S e r v ic e ’s S A A g r o o m i n g , t o i l e t a n d w a t e r
10

c o n tr a c t t o a S A A n o m in a t e d B la c k o w n e d s m a ll
business is noted.

As in d i c a t e d in y o u r m e e ti n g

w i t h M r K o b u s , B l a k e a n d B u s h y B i d A ir S e r v ic e s is
100 percent own subsidiary of Bidvest Ltd.

A

d e c is i o n t h a t h a s a c h a n g e o f o w n e r s h i p a n d
s h a r e h o l d in g

i m p l ic a t i o n

can

therefore

o n ly

be

m a d e b y B i d v e s t L t d . W e r e q u e s t th a t t h e p r o p o s e d
changes

r e q u ir e d

by

SAA

be

fo r m a l i s e d

and

c o m m u n ic a te d i n w r i t in g f o r d u e c o n s i d e r a ti o n . W e
f u r th e r r e q u e s t y o u r a d v ic e a n d g u id a n c e o n h o w
20

t h e f o l l o w in g r e q u ir e m e n ts w i ll b e a d d r e s s e d i n
o r d e r to fa c il i t a t e t h e p r o p o s e d c h a n g e s .
one,

S A A Tr a n s fo r m a ti o n

R e q u ir e m e n t:

Number
B i d A ir

S e r v ic e s is c u r r e n t ly 6 3 . 4 2 p e r c e n t B l a c k o w n e d
( e c o n o m i c i n t e r e s t) a n d 2 4 . 8 5 p e r c e n t B la c k w o m e n
o w n e d . T h is r e q u e s t fo r th e t r a n s f e r o f 3 0 p e r c e n t

Page 175 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o f th e c o n tr a c t t o a B l a c k o w n e d s m a l l b u s i n e s s
w o u ld r e s u l t in th e g r o o m in g , t o i le t a n d w a t e r
c o n tr a c t b e i n g r u n a c o m p a n y w i th a n e ff e c t iv e
7 4 . 3 9 Bl a c k s h a r e h o l d i n g .

D o e s t h is i m p ly th a t

S A A’s s u p p li e r Bl a c k o w n e r s h ip r e q u ir e m e n t i s n o w
c lo s e r t o 7 5 p e r c e n t? I s t h e tr a n s fe r o f 3 0 p e r c e n t
o f t h e c o n tr a c t to a S A A n o m i n a t e d B l a c k o w n e d
s m a ll b u s i n e s s a p r e - r e q u is i t e f o r t h e u p c o m i n g
tender?”
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e n e x t o n e w a s t h e s tr u c tu r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

“The

S tr u c t u r e

was:

B i d Ai r S e r v ic e s p r o v i d e s g r o o m in g , t o i le t a n d w a te r
s e r v ic e s t o o th e r c a r r i e r s o u ts i d e o f S A A , t h e r e f o r e ,
in o r d e r t o i m p l e m e n t w it h th e p r o p o s e d r e q u e s t , a
new company (NewCo) would have to be formed to
t e n d e r f o r t h e c o n tr a c t .
20

in t e n d s

on

n o m i n a ti n g

K i n d l y a d v is e w h o S A A
for

the

30

percent

s h a r e h o l d in g . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

“ L ic e n c e R e q u ir e m e n t s :

NewCo …”
T h i s s u p p o s e d n e w c o m p a n y.

Page 176 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
“…would

be

th e

main

b id d e r

for

th e

h o w e v e r, N e w C o d o e s n o t h a v e a lic e n c e .

t e n d e r,
W h ils t

t h e o n e s h a r e h o ld e r ( B id A i r S e r v ic e s ) w o u l d b e a
lic e n c e h o l d e r, t h is l ic e n c e is n o t t r a n s f e r a b l e to t h e
new

b i d d e r, N e w C o .

How

would

th i s l ic e n c e

r e q u ir e m e n t f o r N e w C o b e r e s o lv e d ? ”
The next one was:
“ T h e C a p e x R e q u ir e m e n t s : Th e c u r r e n t S A A l ic e n c e
r e q u ir e m e n t s s t a t e t h a t n e w e q u i p m e n t m u s t b e
10

u til is e d b y t h e c o m p a n y ’s a w a r d e d c o n t r a c ts f o r t h e
fir s t t i m e . Th is i m p l ie s t h a t B i d A ir S e r v ic e ’s c u r r e n t
e q u ip m e n t c a n n o t b e tr a n s f e r r e d t o th e N e w C o . W e
a n t ic i p a te t h e c a p e x c o s ts f o r t h e n e w c o n tr a c t t o
be

approximately

R20

m ill i o n .

Kindly

advice

w h e t h e r th e n o m in a t e d s m a ll b u s in e s s w i ll b e i n a
p o s i ti o n to f u n d th is c a p i t a l r e q u ir e m e n t . ”
CHAIRPERSON:

B a s i c a ll y B id A ir r a is e d v a r i o u s p r o b l e m s a s f a r a s

t h e y a r e c o n c e r n e d w i th t h i s p r o p o s a l o r d e m a n d m a d e t o th e m …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : By S A A t h r o u g h t h e C h a i r o r M s K w i n a n a ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d a s a r e s u l t o f
t h is m e e t in g w i th M s K w in a n a . Yo u d e a l w i t h t h a t o n p a r a g r a p h 9 4 o f
y o u r a ff i d a v i t o n p a g e 2 6 .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n p a r a g r a p h 9 4 a s a r e s u l t o f th is
a n d I s u p p o s e d s o m e b o d y w i ll h a v e i n fo r m e d s o m e o n e D r A n t o n A l b e r t s
a M e m b e r o f P a r li a m e n t a ll e g e d l y w r o t e a l e t t e r t o th e B B B E E
C o m m i s s i o n e r to r e g is te r t h e ir c o n c e r n a n d o n 8 S e p te m b e r th e – t h e
C o m m i s s i o n e r o f t h e B E E M s Z o d w a N tu li a r r a n g e d a m e e t in g w i t h m e
w i t h r e g a r d s to S A A a n d t h is m a t t e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e w e n e e d t o h e a r w h a t S A A’s

r e s p o n s e w a s to B i d A ir ’s le t t e r. W a s th e r e a r e s p o n s e ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e w a s n o fo r m a l r e s p o n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t Ms K w i n a n a d id g e t t h e le t t e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

D i d r e c e i v e t h e l e t te r a n d th e

Board.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d - a n d th e m a tt e r w a s d is c u s s e d o r n o t

d is c u s s e d a t th e B o a r d a s t o h o w t o r e s p o n d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir t o m y r e c o ll e c ti o n t h e r e w a s

n o f o r m a l B o a r d M e e ti n g w h e r e t h e m a t t e r w a s d is c u s s e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

Because at that time I was also a

Member of the Board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . S o it w a s j u s t le f t l ik e t h a t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It was not discussed as far as I

k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w B i d A ir ju s t a ls o l e f t i t l ik e
t h a t w h e n th e r e w a s n o r e s p o n s e . T h e y d i d n o t fo ll o w u p a s fa r a s y o u

Page 178 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
know?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s f a r a s I k n o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y ; b u t t e ll m e y o u h a v e t o l d m e th a t

M s K w i n a n a w a s a C h a r te r e d A c c o u n t a n t. I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t a s
a Chartered Accountant she would be – she would have quite some
a p p r e c ia t io n o f t h e n e e d fo r t h i n g s i n t h e r u n n in g o f a b u s in e s s s u c h a s
SAA to be done in accordance with established and approved processes
a n d p r o c e d u r e s a n d t h a t y o u c a n n o t ju s t h e a r a p o li t ic i a n s a y
s o m e t h i n g i n a s p e e c h a n d t h e n g o to t h e c o m p a n y a n d s a y n o w w e
10

m u s t ju s t i m p l e m e n t th a t .
There needs to be processes and procedures that must be
p u t i n p l a c e f ir s t b e fo r e – b e f o r e a n y th i n g li k e th a t c o u l d b e d o n e a n d
t h a t t h e y s h o u ld – t h e y s h o u l d - t h e s e t h in g s s h o u ld b e d is c u s s e d
p r o p e r ly. Th e r e s h o u ld b e f o r m a l p r o c e s s e s . I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t
s o m e b o d y li k e h e r w o u l d h a v e t h a t a p p r e c ia t io n .

Is t h a t – is th a t a n

e x p e c ta t io n t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e h a d a s w e ll o f h e r a s a C h a r te r e d
Accountant?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Th e – th a t

w a s p a r t o f m y d is a p p o in t m e n t a n d e a r li e r o n I s a i d i n m y t e s t a m e n t
20

t h a t M s K w in a n a h a s q u a li fi c a t io n s a n d e x p e r i e n c e a n d h e r b u s in e s s
w h ic h w a s a n a u d i t b u s i n e s s . Fo r m e p u t h e r i n – a n d s h e w a s t h e r i g h t
p e r s o n f o r th e j o b t o b e t h e C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f A u d it R i s k a n d C o m p li a n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Based on her background and

e x p e r i e n c e a n d t h e c o m p a n y t h a t s h e w a s r u n n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . D i d y o u e v e r g e t a n i m p r e s s i o n o r u n d e r s ta n d i n g
t h a t s h e d id n o t a p p r e c i a t e th e s e p r o c e s s e s th a t n e e d e d to b e f o l lo w e d
a n d th e s e p r o c e d u r e s i n t h e c o m p a n y o r w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t
she

knew

these

processes

and

procedures

q u it e

well

and

she

a p p r e c ia t e d t h e ir i m p o r t a n c e b u t fo r s o m e o t h e r r e a s o n d e c i d e d o r
r a th e r w o u l d s o m e – w o u l d f o r o t h e r r e a s o n s t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t k n o w
n o t w a n t to – to h a v e t h e m f o l lo w e d ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir I w o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d a n d

k n o w w h y s h e w o u l d n o t h a v e f o l lo w e d t h e p r o c e s s e s .

F o r m e i t is –

s h e – s h e h a d t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d I t h in k s h e h a d a n a p p r e c i a t i o n .
A s a p e r s o n w h o i s r u n n i n g a n a u d i t fir m t h e y a u d it t h e s e t h i n g s . Th a t
is w h a t th e y a u d i t i n c o m p a n ie s . S o f o r m e I c a n n o t s a y t h a t s h e d i d
n o t a p p r e c i a t e – h a v e a n a p p r e c ia t io n b e c a u s e t h a t w a s h e r jo b .
T h a t is w h a t s h e d i d o n a d a i ly b a s i s .

So I had no

u n d e r s t a n d in g a s t o w h y s h e c a r r i e d o n w i t h o u t in s is t in g o n d u e
p r o c e s s b e i n g f o l lo w e d . I c a n n o t a n s w e r t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: As Chairperson of the Audit and Risk Committee and I
20

t h i n k y o u m e n t io n e d c o m p li a n c e a s w e l l t h e r e i n t h e c o m m i t t e e w o u l d
n o t h e r c o m m i t t e e b e t h e c o m m i t t e e th a t w o u l d b e r e q u ir e d o r e x p e c te d
t o g i v e g u i d a n c e to t h e w h o le B o a r d i n c l u d i n g i ts C h a ir p e r s o n o n s o m e
o f t h e s e is s u e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

t h e B o a r d t o t h e c o m p a n y.

Page 180 of 307

N o t o n l y to

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

As – as the people having an

o v e r s ig h t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

When matters are presented to

them
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O n a q u a r t e r ly b a s is o r a s a n d

w h e n th in g s h a p p e n …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th e y a r e s u p p o s e d to p r o v i d e

guidance …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To t h e c o m p a n y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d th e n B o a r d r e l i e d o n t h a t

sub-committee …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

F o r t h e is s u e s o f – o f r is k a n d

c o m p li a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

E a r li e r o n w e c o u n t e d a n u m b e r o f in s t a n c e s

w h e r e i n s tr u c ti o n s w e r e g i v e n t o y o u a s A c t in g C E O t o d o th i n g s
ir r e g u l a r ly a n d n o t t o f o l l o w p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s a n d p o l ic ie s o f
t h e c o m p a n y.

Some of those may have been – some of those

in s t r u c t i o n s m a y h a v e c o m e fr o m M s M y e n i b u t o th e r s d id c o m e fr o m

Page 181 of 307

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
Ms Kwinana …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d m a y b e o th e r s o n o t h e r s t h e y w e r e – t h e y w e r e

t o g e th e r o n th e m . I a m n o t s u r e . W h ic h o n e s a r e y o u a b l e t o is o l a te
a n d s a y t h e s e w e r e fr o m – w e r e d e f i n i t e ly fr o m M s K w i n a n a ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e B o q w a n a B u r n s d e f in i te ly fr o m
Ms Kwinana.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr B o s c ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r Sy l v a i n B o s c .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

The

is s u e

of

Er ic

–

C a p t a i n Er ic M a n e n ts a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s r a is e d b y h e r i n a f o r m a l

R A M C O M e e t in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

That – you know – the role needs

t o b e c o m b i n e d . Th e E N S – t h a t E N S s c o p e w a s e x t e n d e d w i t h o u t d u e
process …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e n w h e n it w a s d i s c o v e r e d

s h e j u s t s a i d l e t u s f in d a w a y o r r e g u la r is i n g i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d i ts c o n d o n e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m ; a n d o f c o u r s e i n r e g a r d t o I t h in k t h e s a m e th i n g

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o r th e – t h e B o q w a n a B u r n s o n e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u r e f u s e d to s i g n s h e s a i d a n y w a y t h a t

s t a r t e d w o r k in g .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t w o u l d h a v e m e a n t a s fa r a s y o u w e r e

c o n c e r n e d a t l e a s t a s f a r a s y o u k n e w i f t h e y h a d a lr e a d y s t a r te d
working

they

had

a lr e a d y

s ta r t e d

working

without

a

l e tt e r

of

a p p o i n t m e n t.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e fa c t t h a t s h e s i g n e d t h e

e n g a g e m e n t l e t te r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To B o q w a n a B u r n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d s h e s i g n e d a n u n d is c l o s e d

agreement …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To B o q w a n a B u r n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

As far as you are – you are concerned she

w o u ld h a v e k n o w n t h a t a ll o f th e s e t h in g s w e r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e
d o n e l ik e t h i s . T h e r e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a i r i t is m y c o n t e n t io n th a t s h e

should have known.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: She would – she would have known?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u ju s t d o n o t k n o w w h y s h e w o u ld n e v e r t h e l e s s

h a v e w a n te d t o – t h e s e th in g s t o b e d o n e w i t h o u t f o l lo w in g t h o s e
procedures?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w o u l d n o t k n o w w h y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : B u t s h e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Thank you.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ms Mpshe I wanted to

f o ll o w u p o n w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d fo ll o w i n g t h i s – th is – t h e s e d e m a n d s
by Ms Kwinana.

Yo u h a v e t o l d u s t h a t t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g th a t w a s

c a l l e d o r t h a t w a s - y o u a tt e n d e d w i th t h e B B B E E C o m m i s s i o n e r. Ye s
t a k e u s fr o m t h e r e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O k a y C h a ir.

M s Zo d w a N t u l i w a s

t h e A c ti n g C o m m is s i o n e r – B E E C o m m is s io n e r a t th a t p o i n t in t i m e –
r e q u e s t e d a m e e t i n g w i th m e a s t h e A c ti n g C E O a n d t h e y c a m e t o S A A .
W e h a d a m e e ti n g a S A A . I n t h e m e e t i n g s h e c a m e w i t h o t h e r t h r e e –
t h r e e p e o p l e fr o m h e r o ff ic e a n d t h e n I in v i t e d D r D a h w a a s t h e
20

p r o c u r e m e n t a n d I i n v it e d M r T h a p e l o L e h a s a – I t h i n k s h e w a s n o t
a v a i la b le .
I i n v i t e d M s ( i n d i s t i n c t) w h o w a s s h a r e h o ld e r /s t a k e h o ld e r
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e a n d t h e n w e w e n t to t h e m e e ti n g .

A t t h e m e e ti n g s h e

t h e n – y o u k n o w – o u t li n e d t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g a n d s a id i t is a s
a r e s u l t o f t h is c o m p l a i n t t h a t h a s b e e n b r o u g h t to t h e a tt e n ti o n o f – o f

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t h e C o m m i s s i o n – t h e B E E C o m m i s s i o n – th a t S A A i s g o i n g a b o u t
i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s id e a n d m a k in g d e m a n d s o n t h e
c u r r e n t s e r v i c e p r o v id e r s w h o h a v e c u r r e n t c o n t r a c t s w i th t h e c o m p a n y.
S h e t h e n a d v is e d u s t o s a y o n e , th is is n o t l a w. S o w h a t y o u
a r e d o in g is i ll e g a l. S o w e m u s t s t o p . W e m u s t c e a s e i m m e d i a te ly. I f
h o w e v e r y o u w a n t t o i n fl u e n c e y o u r s it u a ti o n a t S A A t h e B E E C o d e s
h a v e b e e n r e v is e d a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e a n d t h e a v i a ti o n c o d e w a s n o t
fi n a l is e d . T h e B E E Av ia t io n C o d e s w e r e n o t f in a lis e d .
S h e t h e n s a id t h a t y o u c a n th e n h a v e y o u r i n fl u e n c e a s fa r a s
10

t h e a v i a ti o n is c o n c e r n e d i n t h a t s p a c e w h e n t h e s e – t h e c o d e s w e r e –
w e r e b e i n g r e v ie w e d s o w e c a n s e n d i n o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . I f t h a t i s
w h a t w e fe e l a n d m a y b e it w il l h e lp o t h e r a ir l in e s – s m a l l a ir li n e s a s
w e ll a s w e a r e th e b ig g e r a i r li n e d o m e s ti c a l ly a n d – a n d s a id a n d t h e n
a ls o w e c a n n o t c h a n g e o u r s u p p ly c h a i n p o lic y t o a l ig n w i t h t h i s 3 0
p e r c e n t b e c a u s e th is is n o t l a w y e t .
I t h a s n o t b e e n b r o u g h t t o th e m t h a t i t is l a w.

We can only

c h a n g e o u r p o li c y t o a l ig n w i th it o n c e i t h a s b e c o m e l a w – t h is 3 0
p e r c e n t s e t- a s i d e h a s b e c o m e la w.

S o s h e r e a l ly w a s - y o u k n o w –

g u i d i n g u s t h r o u g h w h a t i t is t h a t w e n e e d t o d o a n d h o w w e c a n d o i t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a i d w h o a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e ti n g …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : D r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m S A A’s s i d e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M y s e l f .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Dr Dahwa,

M s ( i n d is t i n c t)

and

M r T h a p e l o L e h a s a w a s n o t a v a i l a b le b u t h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o – t h e
Tr a n s f o r m a t io n M a n a g e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e w a s a l s o in v i t e d t o a t t e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d – a n d t h i s – t h e c o n t e n t o f t h is m e e t i n g
w a s a t a n y s ta g e c o m m u n i c a t e d t o th e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

Ye s C h a ir.

m e e ti n g w e r e c o m m u n ic a t e d to t h e B o a r d .

T h e c o n te n ts o f t h e

S h e f o ll o w e d u p w i th th e

le t t e r – M s N t u li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N t u l i, y e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M s N t u li fo ll o w e d u p w i t h a l e t t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

To m e t o s a y p u r s u a n t to o u r

d is c u s s io n s w e c o n fi r m th e f o l lo w i n g th e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

Th e f o l lo w in g b la h , b la h , b l a h a n d

a ls o t h a t p l e a s e s to p , i t i s il le g a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S t o p t h e 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s i d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e n I th e n fo r w a r d e d i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th a t

to

the

C h a ir

and

when

M s N t u l i w a s c o mi n g I a ls o o u t o f c o u r te s y in f o r m e d t h e C h a ir t h a t I
w o u ld b e h a v in g a m e e t in g w i t h M s N tu li .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o I d id g iv e h e r – t h e C h a ir

f e e d b a c k a n d a ls o I f o r w a r d e d th e l e t te r fr o m M s N t u l i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t w a s t h e C h a i r ’s r e s p o n s e o n th a t ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e C h a i r ’s r e s p o n s e s a i d I d o n o t
w a n t – I a m q u o ti n g n o w.
“ I d o n o t w a n t t o h e a r a n y t h i n g fr o m t h a t w o m a n . ”
M e a n i n g M s N tu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t n o w i n a m e e ti n g s e t u p b e t w e e n y o u a n d t h e
C h a ir o r o v e r t h e p h o n e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s s h a r i n g w i t h t h e C h a ir w h a t –
t h a t th e r e i s a le t t e r c o m in g . S h e m u s t b e r e a d y f o r i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S h e m u s t b e a w a r e fo r h e r i n b o x .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t i s a f o ll o w u p o f t h e m e e ti n g a n d
t h is is th e l e t te r.

It is i n h e r in b o x a n d I h a v e c o p i e d t h e B o a r d

Members …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e n s h e – s h e t h e n s a id t o

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
me:
“ I d o n o t w a n t to h e r a n y th i n g a b o u t t h a t w o m a n . I
a c t u a ll y h a v e d e a l in g s w i t h th e D e p u ty M in is te r. ”
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

When she said that had you told her what the

le t t e r w a s th a t w a s – t h a t y o u h a d s e n t t o h e r w a s s a y i n g ?

Did she

k n o w w h a t t h e le t t e r w a s s a y i n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s C h a ir. S h e – s h e k n e w.
CHAIRPERSON: She knew?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

S h e k n e w w h a t t h e l e tt e r w a s

s a y in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To s a y t h a t w e h a v e t o s t o p th e 3 0
p e r c e n t s e t- a s i d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is il l e g a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d h o w w e c a n i n f l u e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O u r c o d e s – o u r B E E C o d e s …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t h e Av i a ti o n S e c t o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s a w a y o f in c l u d i n g w h a t w e w a n t
to do …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

But at that point in time the 30

p e r c e n t w a s n o t l a w. S o i t w a s il l e g a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C h a ir I d o n o t w i s h M s M p s h e to r e a d

t h r o u g h t h e l e t t e r b e c a u s e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: No she does not have to but she can …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D r D a h w a d i d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e c a n i d e n t i fy i t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , y e s . D r D a h w a d id r e a d t h is le t t e r i n t o
the record last week.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t l e t h e r i d e n t i fy i t w i t h o u t r e a d in g i t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

M s M p s h e m a y I r e fe r y o u to Ta b 4 4

page 352 of Annexure B?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z : Ye s . Is t h a t t h e l e t te r t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h is i s t h e le t t e r I h a v e r e c e iv e d

fr o m M s N t u l i .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s t h e s a m e l e t t e r y o u fo r w a r d e d to th e C h a ir
a n d to M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . T h e n y o u a l s o m a k e r e f e r e n c e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t o a n o t h e r l e tt e r t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y.

Could

y o u p le a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t l e t t e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S h o r tl y

a f te r

th is

l e tt e r

from

M s N t u l i – th e m e e ti n g in th e l e t te r fr o m M s N tu li I h a d a l e t te r fr o m t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y f r o m t h e C h ie f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r –
M r K e n n e th B r o w n a t th a t t i m e a n d t h e l e t t e r w a s a ls o h i g h li g h ti n g t h a t
t h e r e h a s b e e n c o m p l a in ts t h a t h a v e b e e n s e n t t o D T I a n d D T I h a s
n o t i fi e d t h e m a s o u r s h a r e h o l d e r m i n is tr y t h a t w e a r e n o w e x e r c is i n g
t h is 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s id e a n d th e l e t te r w a s t e lli n g u s i n v e r y c e r ta i n
10

w o r d – c e r t a i n w o r d s t h a t w e s h o u l d s t o p d e m a n d in g o r p r a c tic i n g o r
a p p ly i n g t h e 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s i d e . I t i s il l e g a l.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d d o – t h is le t t e r d o y o u k n o w i f t h e
B o a r d r e c e iv e d t h i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I f o r w a r d e d t h e le t t e r t o t h e C h a ir

and copied the Board.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

O n p a r a g r a p h 9 6 y o u d e a l w i t h th e

r e s p o n s e t o t h e B B B E E C o m m i s s io n e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .

T h e C h a ir

d e l e g a t e d a r e s p o n s e t o M s N t u l i’s l e t te r - t h e B E E C o m m i s s io n – to
20

M s K w i n a n a to d r a f t a l e t te r i n r e s p o n s e t o M s N t u l i’s l e tt e r …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d w h e n I r e c e i v e d t h e le t t e r fr o m
M s K w i n a n a I f e lt t h a t t h e t o n e o f t h e l e tt e r w a s n o t a p p r o p r i a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . I a m l o o k i n g fo r t h e l e tt e r u n d e r T M 4 8
M s B u th e l e z i .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Oh.

S o r r y C h a ir.

M s M p s h e m a y I r e fe r

y o u – y o u t o Ta b 4 8 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I a m t h e r e b u t I c a n n o t f in d i t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

The letter on page 370.

No I am sorry

C h a ir it i s a c tu a lly 3 6 9 . I t is t h e l e t t e r fr o m M r K e n n e t h Br o w n t o t h e
witness – Ms Mpshe.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I a m l o o k i n g f o r t h e o n e fr o m Ms K w i n a n a .

The

o n e th a t M s M p s h e r e d r a ft e d o r a t l e a s t Ms M p s h e ’s r e s p o n s e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h , w e a r e g e t ti n g t h e r e C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I a h e a d o f y o u t h is t i m e ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . Yo u a r e a h e a d o f u s th is ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I a m s o r r y C h a i r. Ye s a n d t h e le t t e r th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l w a i t fo r y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a t w a s w r i t t e n b y Mr K e n n e t h Br o w n w a s
a ls o r e a d i n t o r e c o r d b y D r D a h w a l a s t w e e k . I a m n o t g o i n g t o a s k t h i s
w i t n e s s to r e a d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o , n o . T h a t i s – s h e c a n j u s t i d e n t if y th a t – t h a t
is t h e l e t te r s h e i s t a l k i n g a b o u t .

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a ll .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

M s M p s h e t h e le t t e r o n p a g e 3 - 6 - 9 is t h a t

t h e le t t e r y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e P a r li a m e n t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t is t h e le t t e r th a t I r e c e iv e d fr o m

N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y fr o m M r K e n n e th B r o w n .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : F r o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y. I a m s o s o r r y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th a t is 3 6 9 a n d o n 3 7 0 i t is m y

r e s p o n s e t o Mr K e n n e t h Br o w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 270?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 3 7 0 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 3 7 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: 370?
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . Ye s , n o w w e a r e o n t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t
w a s p r e p a r e d to t h e B B B E E C o m m i s s i o n e r. W o u l d y o u p l e a s e t a k e u s
t h r o u g h t h a t – th a t r e s p o n s e ? W h a t tr a n s p ir e d th e r e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h i c h p a g e is t h i s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l s h e c a n j u s t m e n ti o n t h e i m p o r t a n t p o i n t s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n – o n t h e l e tt e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o r e a d i t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

That was penned by Ms Kwinana

t h a t I n e e d e d t o j u s t a p p e n d m y s ig n a tu r e t o …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I – I d i d i n d i c a t e t h a t t h e l e t te r w a s
n o t a p p r o p r i a t e ly w o r d e d a n d th e to n e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W a s n o t c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I j u s t s i m p l y w r o t e a le t t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To M s N tu li …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To s a y th a t w e w i ll c o m p ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W e – w e a c k n o w l e d g e th a t w e

s h o u l d n o t b e d o i n g a n d I h a d i n d ic a te d e a r l i e r o n th a t i t w a s a c t u a ll y
the Board that was spearheading …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h is 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t - a s i d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It was not spear - spearheaded by

management.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I th e n r e s p o n d e d b a c k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d I c o p i e d t h e B o a r d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O n t h a t – o n m y r e s p o n s e to

Ms Ntuli …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e n th e C h a ir t h e n a s k e d m e
w h e r e th e l e t t e r is t h a t M s K w i n a n a h a s w r it t e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t h e n s a i d t o th e C h a i r I d i d n o t

f e e l i t w a s a n a p p r o p r i a t e r e s p o n s e a n d fo r m e t o a p p e n d m y s i g n a t u r e
I s h o u ld b e a b l e to o w n t h a t le t t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d I d i d n o t o w n i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e n c e I w r o t e my r e s p o n s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

A n d I a ls o i n d i c a t e d t o t h e C h a ir

t h a t i f th e r e C h a ir f e e ls t h a t i t i s s o i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h a t m e s s a g e c o m i n g
fr o m M s K w i n a n a s h o u ld b e c o m m u n ic a te d t h e y c a n d o it d ir e c t ly w i th
h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

W e l l it m a y b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t y o u te ll m e

s o m e o f th e f e a tu r e s o f t h e l e t te r t h a t h a d b e e n p r e p a r e d b y
M s K w i n a n a f o r y o u t o s i g n a n d s e n d to M s N tu li i n t e r m s o f c o m p a r i n g
it t o t h e a t ti t u d e y o u t o o k n a m e ly y o u w i ll c o m p ly. W h e t h e r it w a s a ls o
a l o n g t h e s a m e li n e s th a t th e r e w o u l d b e c o m p li a n c e o r w h e t h e r i t w a s
d e f ia n t o r i t w a s – w h a t w a s t h e B o a r d ’s a t ti t u d e – w h a t w a s t h e
B o a r d ’s m e s s a g e t h a t M s K w in a n a h a d w a n t e d t o b e p u t th r o u g h ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir i t w a s q u i t e c o n fr o n ta t io n a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d a l m o s t s a y in g t h a t – y o u k n o w
– y o u c a n n o t te ll u s w h a t to d o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e h a v e a r e s p o n s i b il it y.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Tr a n s f o r m a ti o n is a k e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Yo u k n o w – o n t h e n a t i o n a l a g e n d a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e w i ll d o i t – c o n ti n u i n g d o in g i t .
T h e r e is n o t h i n g l e g a l a b o u t w h a t w e a r e d o i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

To t h a t – s o m e t h i n g t o t h a t e ff e c t .

Ve r y c o n fr o n t a ti o n a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i t s e e ms th a t w h a t y o u
w r o t e a n d w h a t t h e y – t h e s t a n c e y o u t o o k i n t h e le t t e r w a s n o t t h e
s a m e a s t h e s ta n c e th e y w a n t e d . T h e y w e r e s a y i n g th e y w e r e g o i n g to
p u s h a h e a d w it h t h e 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t - a s i d e a n d t h e y w e r e s a y in g t h e r e
w a s n o t h i n g il le g a l a b o u t i t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e s a y in g y o u – y o u w i ll c o m p ly ?

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w il l s a y th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t S o u t h A f r i c a n A i r w a y s a s – a s
a company and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d a s a n S O C …

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e w i l l c o m p l y w i th t h e l a w s o f th e
c o u n tr y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e h a v e n o t a m e n d e d t h e p o lic y to
t h e a ffe c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d s h o u ld th e t i m e c o m e f o r u s t o
a m e n d t h e p o l ic y …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e w i l l a m e n d t h e p o l ic y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : B u t th a t t i m e – a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e w i l l c o m p ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , a n d I g u e s s a s y o u s a y y o u h a d to m a k e s u r e t h a t
a le t t e r t h a t w o u l d b e a r y o u r s i g n a t u r e s a i d t h e r i g h t t h i n g s a b o u t S A A
a n d a ls o i n t e r ms o f S A A c o m p l y i n g w i t h th e l a w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u c o u l d n o t w r it e a n d s a y w e w i ll n o t c o m p ly
with the law?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y, a lr i g h t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank you and on paragraph 98 you deal

w i t h t h e e v e n ts o f F r i d a y 2 O c to b e r.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms B u t h e l e z i w e a r e – w e h a v e g o n e p a s t 4 o ’ c lo c k .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . C h a ir I a m – I a m …
CHAIRPERSON:

M s M p s h e w e w a n t t o tr y a n d fi n i s h w i t h y o u r

e v i d e n c e . F o r t h a t r e a s o n w e m a y h a v e t o p r o c e e d . I s t h a t f i n e w it h
y o u b u t fr o m w h a t I s e e i t l o o k s lik e w e a r e n o t t o o f a r a w a y fr o m
fi n i s h i n g ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . W e a r e a b o u t s e v e n p a g e s i f I m a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Is t h a t fi n e w i th y o u ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a t i s f in e w i t h m e C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t b u t I w o u ld l ik e u s to t a k e a s h o r t b r e a k
n o w.

W e – i t is a b o u t fo u r m i n u te s p a s t f o u r.

W e w i ll r e s u m e a t

q u a r t e r p a s t. T h a t s h o u l d b e e n o u g h f o r u s t o f i n is h b e f o r e fi v e . W e
w i ll a d j o u r n a n d r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r p a s t. W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t’s p r o c e e d .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s M p s h e , I w a n t t o t a k e
y o u o n e s t e p b a c k . In t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d t h e l e tt e r fr o m t h e tr ip l e B E E
20

C o m m i s s i o n e r. Yo u h a v e t o l d u s a b o u t h o w y o u r e s p o n d e d t o t h e le t t e r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h e l e tt e r t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e

N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y, d i d y o u r e s p o n d to t h a t le t t e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I h a v e r e s p o n d e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d is t h e le t t e r t h a t i s o n p a g e 3 7 0 ?

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h a t ’s t h e le t t e r.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d c o u l d y o u b r ie f ly s u m m a r iz e w h a t y o u
said in your response?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M y s u m m a r y w a s t h a t a t t h e ti m e

w e h a d a d r a f t tr a n s f o r m a t i o n p o l ic y b u t it w a s n o t s i g n e d o ff y e t o r
i m p l e m e n te d . A n d th e n t h e b a s is o f t h e p r o p o s e d 3 0 % s e t a s i d e in
o r d e r t o e x p e d i t e t r a n s f o r m a ti o n a n d c o n tr i b u t e to B E E g r o w t h i s a
d e c is i o n in w h ic h th e B o a r d r e s o lv e d a s 3 0 % o f k e y p r o c u r e m e n ts
tr a n s a c ti o n s . A n d t h e n I s a y a s a S t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n y, S A A i s m i n d f u l
10

a n d s e e k s t o e n s u r e f u ll c o m p li a n c e w h e r e a p p li c a b l e w i th a p p l ic a b le
la w s a n d w i t h i n t h e r e g u l a t o r y fr a m e w o r k . A n d I e n d u p b y s a y i n g a s
S A A a l s o s e e k s t o c o n tr i b u t e to w a r d s o p e n i n g u p a r e a s o f t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n e c o n o my w h e r e t h e r e is l i m it e d p a r t ic ip a ti o n b y b la c k S o u t h
A fr ic a n s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t w a s m y r e s p o n s e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , y o u t o l d u s t h a t t h e B o a r d a l s o

r e c e i v e d th is le t t e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I c o p ie d t h e B o a r d .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Yo u c o p i e d th e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . D o y o u k n o w i f t h e B o a r d r e s p o n d e d t o
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , I d o . I ’ m a w a r e t h a t t h e B o a r d
did respond.

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A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d t h e r e is a le t t e r th a t a p p e a r s f r o m

page.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 3 9 0 ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 3 9 0 , y e s o f t h e r e c o r d . Is t h a t th e l e t t e r, is
t h a t th e r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir. T h i s r e s p o n s e
w a s a p p e n d e d b y Ms K w i n a n a a n d M r K e n n e t h B r o w n w h o w a s t h e c h i e f
p r o c u r e m e n t o ffic e r a t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . Ar e y o u , w i ll y o u s u m m a r i z e w h a t w a s
10

t h e t o n e a n d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h a t l e tt e r ; t h e o n e th a t w a s w r i t t e n b y M s
K w in a n a t o K e n n e t h Br o w n ? O r h i g h l ig h t w h a t y o u t h i n k w i ll b e
i m p o r t a n t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t h i n k s h e , M s K w i n a n a r e s p o n d e d .
I th in k m a y b e t h e i m p o r ta n t o n e , w e ll j u s t o n p a g e 5 , p a g e 3 9 4 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e S A A B o a r d r e s p o n d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : F r o m p o i n t 1 4 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
being

c o n fr o n t a ti o n a l ,

s t a te m e n ts

o u tl i n e d

we
under

I t s a y s t h a t w i t h o u t t h e in t e n t o f

consider

it

paragraph

important
12

above.

to

respond

H o w e v e r,

to
the

f o r m u l a ti o n o f a f u l l r e s p o n s e t o th e s e i s s u e s h a s b e e n m a d e d i ff ic u l t
b y th e l a c k o f th e fo ll o w i n g i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m y o u r o ffic e . E x p la n a ti o n o f
d e t a i ls o f p r e c i s e ly h o w t h e B o a r d h a s o p e r a t e d o u ts id e o f th e

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p r o c u r e m e n t l e g a l fr a m e w o r k in i m p l e m e n t in g a g o v e r n m e n t i n fo r m a ti o n
p o li c y, tr a n s fo r m a ti o n p o li c y o f s e t ti n g a s id e 3 0 % o f p r o c u r e m e n t t o
u n l o c k t h e p o t e n ti a l o f S M M E s , c o o p e r a t i v e s a s w e ll a s t o w n s h ip a n d
r u r a l e n t e r p r i s e s . W h a t is t h e c u r r e n t f o r m o f 3 0 % a s i d e t h a t h a s o r h a s
been

i m p l e m e n te d

by

th e

Board

is

not

s u p p o r te d

by

th e

any

p r o c u r e m e n t l e g a l fr a m e w o r k ? I t ’s a q u e s t i o n . C o n v e r s e l y, i f n o t f u r th e r
w h a t w i ll b e t h e c o m p l a i n t f o r m o f s e tt i n g a s id e th e 3 0 % d e s c r i b e d
h e r e t o ? W h ic h p r o c u r e m e n t d e c i s i o n s o f t h e B o a r d h a v e b r o u g h t t h e
n a m e o f S A A a n d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n to d i s r e p u t e ?
10

A n d i t g o e s t o s a y th a t i t i s r e s p e c t f u l ly o u r v i e w a n d t h a t w h a t
is p r e m a tu r e a n d u n r e a s o n a b l e a t th e s ta g e t o d ir e c t t h e B o a r d t h r o u g h
t h e a c ti n g C E O t o s t o p w i th i m m e d ia t e e ff e c t th e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f i t s
r e s o l u ti o n

to

set

aside

30%

of

SAA

procurement

fo r

SMME,

c o o p e r a ti v e s a s w e ll a s t o w n s h i p a n d r u r a l e n t e r p r is e s . W e s u b m i t w it h
r e s p e c t t h a t s u c h a d ir e c t iv e o u g h t t o b e m a d e a ft e r y o u r o ffic e h a s
f u ll y e n g a g e d w i th t h e B o a r d a n d u n d e r s t o o d th e f o u n d a ti o n o f t h e
r e s o l u ti o n t a k e n . Yo u r c o n c l u d i n g s e n te n c e i n y o u r l a s t l e t te r w h e r e i n
you seek an update on the development around the 30% set aside of
k e y p r o c u r e m e n t tr a n s a c t i o n s s u p p o r t o u r s u b m is s io n s in s u g g e s t in g i n
20

t h is r e g a r d . P a r ti c u l a r l y i f s u p p o r t o u r s u b m is s i o n t h a t t h e d ir e c ti v e w a s
m a d e p r e m a tu r e ly a n d w i t h o u t t h e f u l l b a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a t i o n o f th e
B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n . A c c o r d i n g ly, w e r e q u e s t t h a t y o u c o n s i d e r in g o o d
f a i t h t h a t a n i n te r g o v e r n m e n t a l r e l a t i o n s l e v e l o u r s u b m is s i o n s s u g g e s t
it i n r e q u e s t m a d e h e r e in a b o v e . W h e r e a p p r o p r i a t e p r o v i d e g u id a n c e o n
t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h i s g o v e r n m e n t tr a n s f o r m a ti o n p o l ic y o f s e tt i n g

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
aside

30%

of

procurement

of

goods

and

s e r v ic e s

to

SMMEs,

c o o p e r a ti v e s , t o w n s h i p a n d r u r a l e n t e r p r i s e s . W e l o o k f o r w a r d t o
h e a r in g fr o m y o u .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , t h e l e t te r t h a t y o u t o n e d d o w n th a t w a s
d ir e c t e d t o t h e tr i p l e B E E C o m m is s i o n e r, d i d i t h a v e s a m e , s i mi l a r to n e
t o t h i s , t h e l e t t e r t h a t w a s s e n t to Tr e a s u r y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t h a d a n d h a d a b o u t a l m o s t l ik e

t h e s e fi v e p a g e s o r s i x p a g e s w h e r e a s m y r e s p o n s e w a s a o n e p a g e
a l m o s t.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . T h e n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , Ms M p s h e y o u k n o w I a s k e d y o u e a r l ie r o n

w h e t h e r y o u t h o u g h t M s K w in a n a d id n ’t h a v e a n a p p r e c i a t i o n o f t h e
i m p o r t a n c e o f f o ll o w i n g i n te r n a l p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s i n a
c o m p a n y a n d y o u s a id , y o u t h o u g h t s h e d i d h a v e th a t a p p r e c i a ti o n . B u t
it ’s d i ffi c u l t to r e a d th is p a r t o f th e le t t e r th a t y o u h a v e j u s t r e a d
w i t h o u t th a t t h o u g h t c o m i n g b a c k w h e t h e r i t ’s s o m e b o d y w h o h a d th a t
a p p r e c ia t io n w h o w a s w a it i n g h e r e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S h e w il l c o m e h e r e I ’ m s u r e a n d I w i ll p u t m y

c o n c e r n s to h e r. M a y b e s h e w i ll e x p l a in a n d I w il l u n d e r s ta n d b u t i t
d o e s n ’t c o m e a c r o s s a s s o m e b o d y w h o h a d a n a p p r e c i a t i o n o f th e
i m p o r t a n c e o f i n t e r n a l p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s a n d t h a t w o u ld n e e d
t o b e fo ll o w e d b e f o r e s o m e t h i n g l ik e t h i s c o u ld b e i m p le m e n t e d i n a
c o m p a n y. B u t y o u k n o w s h e w il l c o m e h e r e . S h e w il l g iv e e v i d e n c e .
M a y b e s h e w ill in d ic a t e a n d m a y b e I w il l u n d e r s t a n d .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I tr u s t a n d I h o p e t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, thank you.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : G e t t o t h a t .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ms Mpshe, Mary and I refer you to

p a r a g r a p h 9 8 . W o u l d y o u p l e a s e t a k e u s t o t h e e v e n t s o f t h e Fr i d a y, 2
O c t o b e r ? D o c t o r D a h w a d id te s t i fy a b o u t t h e s e e v e n ts w h e n h e te s t i fi e d
la s t F r i d a y b u t w o u ld y o u t a k e u s th r o u g h t o w h a t y o u w i tn e s s e d o n t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r d a y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

Ye s , C h a ir. O n t h e 2 n d o f O c t o b e r

2 0 1 5 , m y p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t c a m e to m e a n d s a id y o u h a v e t o s e e
D o c to r D a h w a a n d i t l o o k s q u it e u r g e n t . S o I t h e n a g r e e d t o s e e D o c t o r
D a h w a . A n d D o c to r D a h w a w a l k s i n t o m y o ff ic e a n d th e n h e s a i d , h e
w a s , h e l o o k e d v i s i b l y s h a k e n a n d a b it e m o t io n a l a n d I s a id w h a t’s t h e
m a t t e r ? Yo u k n o w, s i t d o w n . I tr i e d t o c a l m h i m d o w n . W h a t i s t h e
m a t t e r ? H e p u t d o w n t h e t w o d o c u m e n ts ; tw o s e p a r a t e d o c u m e n ts i n
fr o n t o f m e a n d s a i d I c a n ’ t , I c a n ’ t . H e c a l le d m e b o s s . I c a n ’ t m y b o s s .
M y c o n s c i e n c e d o e s n ’ t a ll o w m e , I c a n ’t . S o I s a i d to D o c to r D a h w a ,
ju s t c a l m d o w n a n d I h e a r y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h is s t a g e w h e n h e w a s s a y in g I c a n ’t , I c a n ’ t y o u

20

d i d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , n o I d id n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e
w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a , h m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I t h e n s a i d o k a y, le t ’s s ta r t fr o m
s c r a t c h . I h e a r th e is s u e a b o u t y o u r c o n s c ie n c e b u t le t ’s t a lk a b o u t t h e

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f a c ts o f th is t h a t y o u b r o u g h t i n f r o n t o f m e . W h a t is t h i s t h a t y o u
b r o u g h t i n fr o n t o f m e ? A n d t h e n h e g a v e m e t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e n I
r e a d t h e fi r s t d o c u m e n t a n d t h e n I r e a d t h e s e c o n d d o c u m e n t . A n d t h e n
I th e n s a i d , s o t e l l m e r e a s o n s w h y y o u ’ r e n o t s ig n i n g th is . H e t h e n
b e g a n to o u tl in e t h e r e a s o n s w h y. T h e fir s t o n e w a s t h e S w i s s p o r t l e tt e r
o f a w a r d w h i c h w a s t o b e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e w a s t o b e g iv e n t o t h e
c o m p a n y c a l le d J a m ic r o n ( P ty ) L t d a n d t h e s e c o n d o n e w a s t h e E n g e n
t o b e a w a r d e d to b e a y e t t o b e k n o w n C o n s o r t i u m a n d a p e r io d o f 1 0
y e a r s . A n d th e n l e t m e s t a r t w i t h th e fi r s t o n e to J a m i c r o n . T h e
10

J a m ic r o n w a s th e g r o u n d h a n d l in g c o n tr a c t , S w is s p o r t w h i c h S w is s p o r t
h a d s u b c o n tr a c t e d t o B i d e . To s a y t h a t t h a t c o n t r a c t h a d a lr e a d y s t a r t e d
c o u p l e o f y e a r s b e fo r e . S o it w a s in t h e m i d d l e o f t h e c o n tr a c t . N o w t h is
a w a r d s ta t e s t h a t S w i s s p o r t w i ll b e 3 0 % o f t h e ir s h a r e o f t h e t e n d e r to
t h is c o m p a n y c a l le d J a m i c r o n ( P ty ) L t d a n d n o t o n l y th a t . F u r th e r o n it
s a y s t h a t th e 3 0 % o f th e p a y m e n t s t h a t S A A is s u p p o s e d t o m a k e t o
S w is s p o r t in r e t u r n f o r t h e s e r v ic e s , th e i n v o i c i n g , 3 0 % o f th a t c a s h
s h o u l d g o to J a m ic r o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t in r e s p e c t o f w o r k t h a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n d o n e
b e f o r e th e l e t te r ?

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S w is s p o r t is a l r e a d y o ff e r i n g t h a t

s e r v ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

H e i s a s e r v i c e p r o v id e r th a t th is

t e n d e r w a s d o n e c o u p l e o f y e a r s a g o a n d t h e y a r e o n - s t r e a m o n l in e .
N o w J a m i c r o n is a c o m p a n y. Th e n I a s k h i m , w h o i s J a m ic r o n ? H e s a y s ,

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n o I d o n ’t k n o w w h o J a m i c r o n is ; is a n a m e o f t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s
g iv e n t o m e b y M s K w i n a n a . S o w e th e n p u t i n t h e r e J a m ic r o n ( P ty ) L t d
a n d I s a i d b u t h a v e y o u , a r e t h e y o n y o u r d a t a b a s e ? N o , th e y a r e n o t
on our database. Have you met them, no, I have never met them. So it
w a s th e fir s t t i m e th a t h e w a s t o l d th a t h e h e a r d o f t h e w o r d J a m ic r o n
t h a t h e w a s t o ld b y M s K w i n a n a t o a w a r d t h e S w is s p o r t t e n d e r t o a
c o m p a n y c a l le d J a m ic r o n ( P ty ) L t d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t I w a s a s k in g a b o u t w a s w h e t h e r t h e 3 0 % , w a s i t
3 0 % o ff w h a t w o u l d b e p a id to o r t o S w is s p o r t , d i d t h a t r e l a t e t o f u t u r e
10

w o r k t o b e d o n e fo r t h e b a la n c e o f th e c o n tr a c t o r d id th a t i n c lu d e t h a t
t h e y s h o u ld s h a r e w i t h B E E c o m p a n y a n y p a y m e n ts a lr e a d y m a d e fo r
w o r k d o n e b e fo r e t h is le t t e r b e in g s ig n e d a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d i t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s a s a t o f

t h e m r e c e iv in g th a t a w a r d i t w a s d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , fr o m t h e n o n w a r d s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : F r o m t h e n o n w a r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n y w o r k t h a t t h e y h a d d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e 3 0 % p a y m e n t c o m i n g fr o m

S A A , t h e y g e t 7 0 , t h i s c o m p a n y w il l g e t 3 0 % .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, g o i n g f o r w a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : G o i n g f o r w a r d .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , a n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d l e t te r, w h a t w a s i t
for?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e s e c o n d o n e w a s J e t Fu e l fr o m
E n g e n w h o w a s th e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r. S a m e c ir c u m s t a n c e s . E n g e n h a d
a lr e a d y b e e n r u n n i n g t w o y e a r s i n t o t h e c o n tr a c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

W h ic h w a s a w a r d e d t o t e n d e r a n d

le g a l ly a n d n o w it w a s s a y i n g t h a t t h e 3 0 % s h o u l d g o t o a y e t t o b e
n a m e d c o n s o r ti u m a n d th is c o n tr a c t s h o u l d b e fo r a d u r a ti o n o f 1 0
y e a r s . S o I s a id o b v i o u s ly th is is n o t r o c k e t s c i e n c e . Yo u c a n n o t a w a r d
to somebody you don’t know so yet to be named meaning that he
d o e s n ’t e x is t o r m a y b e i t is s ti ll i n f o r m a ti o n a n d a ls o I th e n s a i d to
D o c to r D a h w a , fu r t h e r o n N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y r e g u la t io n s d o n ’ t a ll o w f o r
a n y c o n t r a c t s a b o u t fiv e y e a r s . A n y c o n tr a c t w h ic h is a b o v e f iv e y e a r s
n e e d s t o b e a p p r o v e d b y N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y r e g u la t io n s . M e a n in g t h a t
e n t i ti e s , s ta t e o w n e d e n t it i e s c a n d o c o n tr a c ts u p t o t h e m a x i m u m o f
fi v e y e a r s . Th is o n e s a y s 1 0 y e a r s . I s a id , y o u o m i t t e d to i n f o r m th e m

20

a b o u t t h a t b u t a n y w a y n o w th a t w e a r e d is c u s s in g i t t h is is fa c t . S o
a ft e r d is c u s s i n g t h is w i t h D o c to r D a h w a I s a i d , D o c t o r D a h w a I a g r e e
w i t h y o u . Yo u s h o u ld n ’t b e s ig n i n g t h i s , s o a n d h e a lr e a d y c h a n g e d th e
a w a r d . I n s te a d o f p u t ti n g th e r e a s c h ie f p r o c u r e m e n t o ff ic e r w h e r e h e
n e e d s t o s i g n r e c o m m e n d i n g t o m e a s t h e a c ti n g C E O , h e o n ly c h a n g e d
and put my name there.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: So he was saying, you are the boss; you decide.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , h e s a id m a y b e y o u a r e in a

p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

To b e a b le t o d o t h is . S o I s a id ,

D o c to r D a h w a , n o y o u h a v e m y s u p p o r t . T h is i s i n c o r r e c t a n d I s u p p o r t
t h a t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e to s ig n i t a n d b u t p l e a s e a s a c h i e f p r o c u r e m e n t
o ffic e r n o w y o u c a n ’ t n o w p e r p e tu a t e a w r o n g t h i n g . Yo u c a n ’ t p u t my
n a m e t h e r e . S o g o b a c k a n d fix t h i s d o c u m e n t a n d w r i te y o u r n a m e a s
10

t h e r e c o m m e n d e r a n d t h e n w r i t e , m y n a m e w il l s ta y a t t h e a p p r o v e r.
A n d t h e n w h e r e i s t h e s ig n a t u r e ? W h e r e i s y o u r s ig n a tu r e s u p p o s e d to
b e ? S t a t e th e r e a s o n s w h y y o u a r e n o t s i g n i n g a n d a p p r o v in g th is
a w a r d a n d th e n I s a i d y o u c a n b r in g i t b a c k t o m e . Th e s a m e w i t h t h e
o th e r o n e , th e o th e r t w o a w a r d s . A n d I s a i d t o h i m b e c a u s e I c o u ld s e e
h e w a s q u i t e s h a k e n . H e t h e n s h a r e d w it h m e t h a t I’v e n e v e r b e e n
h u m i li a t e d li k e t h i s i n m y w h o le li f e a n d t h e n h e w a s a l m o s t in t e a r s .
H e s a y s I’v e b e e n to ld t h a t I ’ m a Zi m b a b w e a n c i tiz e n a n d I’ m h o l d i n g a
s e n i o r p o s it i o n h e r e t h a t I ’l l n e v e r e v e n h o ld i n m y o w n c o u n tr y a n d I’ m
s t a n d in g in t h e w a y o f tr a n s f o r m a ti o n . A n d h e t h e n s a i d t h a t , o h I t h e n

20

s a i d t o h i m lo o k I ’ m s o s o r r y, I a p o lo g iz e . T h i s is n o t o u r v a l u e a s a
c o m p a n y a n d I w a s i n v o lv e d i n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f D o c t o r D a h w a a n d
h is c o n tr a c t w a s c le a r. It w a s h i s s k il l t r a n s fe r c o n tr a c t a n d h e w a s
d o i n g s o w e ll s i n c e y o u k n o w h e s t a r t e d . S o I s a i d I a p o l o g i z e f o r t h a t .
T h a t ’s n o t t h e v a l u e o f o u r c o m p a n y. P l e a s e g o b a c k t o y o u r o ffic e a n d
r e c t if y th is a w a r d . S o h e t h e n l e f t a n d w e n t t o h i s o ffic e . S o o n a s h e

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le f t , w e n t to h i s o ff ic e th e C h a ir, Ms M y e n i c a m e t o m y o ffi c e a n d t h e n
s a i d w e n e e d e d t o c a l l … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, I’ m s o r r y. I’ m s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t y o u . Yo u

h a v e m a d e q u it e c le a r t h a t D o c to r D a h w a w a s q u i t e s h a k e n a n d
e m o ti o n a l w h e n h e c a m e t o s e e y o u a n d s a i d t h a t h e h a d n e v e r b e e n
h u m i li a t e d lik e th is . D i d h e s a y w h o h a d h u m i li a t e d h i m a n d w h o h a d
t a lk e d h i m b e i n g h o l d i n g a p o s i t io n i n S o u t h A f r ic a t h a t h e w o u ld n ’ t
e v e n h o l d i n h is o w n c o u n tr y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

He said it was the Chair and Ms

K w in a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

E a r l ie r h e h a d in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h

t h e m e a r li e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a d a m e e ti n g w i th t h e m , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t h e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. C o n t in u e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o h e w e n t t o h i s o ffic e t o r e c t if y
a s w e h a d d is c u s s e d . A n d t h e n h e , w e ll C h a ir c a m e i n t o m y o ffi c e a n d
t h e n c a ll e d M s N iv i M o o d l e y w a s a c t in g i n my r o l e a s a c ti n g G M h u m a n
20

r e s o u r c e s a n d t h e n s a id s h e w a n t e d t o h a v e a m e e t in g w i th u s . A n d
t h e n N i v i c a m e t o t h e m e e t in g i n m y o ffi c e a n d t h e n s h e t h e n s a id s h e
w a n ts l e t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t fo r K e n d y P h o h le li i s a fo ll o w - u p o f t h e
B o a r d r e s o lu t io n o f t h e 2 8 / 2 9 S e p t e m b e r. S o w e w e r e b u s y d is c u s s i n g
t h is m a t t e r a n d o ff ic e a n d t a k i n g t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ta k i n g t h e , d is c u s s i n g w h ic h m a tt e r n o w ? Th e o n e

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that.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e K e n d y P h o h le li m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s . W i th t h e C h a ir ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W i t h th e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d b e c a u s e n o w t h e C h a ir s a i d h e
w a n ts t h e le t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t t o a p p o i n t M r P h o h l e li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w t o th e p o s i ti o n i n h e r o ffic e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. C o n t in u e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s . S o w e t h e n , t h e d i s c u s s io n

a r o u n d i t w i t h t h e C h a ir w a s , C h a ir t h e c h a ll e n g e th a t w e h a v e is t h a t
t h e s tr u c t u r e h a s n ’t g o t , n o i t w a s n o t t h e i s s u e o f t h e s t r u c t u r e . N o , n o
b e f o r e th a t w a s t h e t h a t M r P h o h le li d i d n ’ t m e e t t h e ir r e q u ir e m e n ts ;
s o m e t h i n g t o t h a t e ffe c t . A n d th e n i t w a s a ls o a b o u t h a v i n g t o g e t , I ’ m
tr y i n g to r e m e m b e r. Th e r e w a s tw o . T h e r e w a s th e o n e w h ic h w a s , i t
w a s n o t in t h e s tr u c t u r e , th e c o m m e r c i a l o n e . I’ m t h i n k in g a b o u t n o w.
20

T h e r e w a s a c o m m e r c ia l o n e a n d t h e o n e i n th e o ffi c e o f t h e C h a ir. A n d
t h e n w e t h e n d is c u s s e d w i t h t h e C h a ir a r o u n d th e is s u e s t h a t t h e
s tr u c t u r e s n e e d e d t o b e c h a n g e d a n d C h a ir n e e d e d to c h a n g e t h a t a n d
n e e d e d to h a v e n e w p r o fi le . L ik e to s a y, w h a t i s t h i s p e r s o n g o i n g t o d o
s o th a t th e n w e h a v e to f o l lo w d u e p r o c e s s in m a k i n g s u r e th a t th e
a p p r o v a l a n d t h e r e c r u it m e n t t a k e s p l a c e . A n d t h e C h a ir w o u l d n ’ t h e a r

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
a n y th in g o u t o f t h a t a n d th e C h a i r s a y s y o u w i ll d o th e l e tt e r o f
a p p o i n t m e n t f o r M r P h o h l e li to d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Saying to you?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S a y t o m e a n d M s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B a s i c a lly g i v i n g a fi r m i n s tr u c t io n n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : G i v i n g a f ir m i n s tr u c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d th e n s h e s a id I a m n o t l e a v i n g
t o d a y w i t h o u t g e t ti n g th e l e t te r o f a p p o i n t m e n t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a d j u s t e x p l a in e d t o h e r t h a t t h e r e w a s a

p r o b le m w i t h a p p o in t in g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r, t h i s p e r s o n .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s p e r t h e B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e e x p l a i n e d t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: And she was, she was not persuaded?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S h e w a s n o t p e r s u a d e d . S h e s a y s , I
d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d . W h i c h p a r t o f t h i s d o n ’ t y o u u n d e r s t a n d a n d I ’ m n o t
le a v in g h e r e u n ti l I g e t t h e l e t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t f o r M r K e n d y P h o h l e l i
t o d a y a n d I a m n o t i n a r u s h . T h a t is w h a t s h e s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r o u n d w h a t t i m e o f th e d a y w a s i t i f y o u a r e a b l e t o
remember?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s g e t t in g in t o a f t e r n o o n n o w b y
t h a t ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h i ls t it w a s s ti ll t h e t h r e e o f u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the third?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P a r d o n ?
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the third person?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M s M o o d l e y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h o w a s a c ti n g i n t h e r o l e o f H R .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M y s e l f a n d M s M y e n i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h i ls t w e w e r e s ti ll d e l ib e r a ti n g o n
t h is m a t t e r, M s K w i n a n a w a lk e d i n t o m y o ffi c e w e r e t h e th r e e o f u s a r e
s i tt i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e fo r e Ms K w in a n a w a lk s i n , w a s M s M o o d l e y

e x p r e s s in g h e r s u p p o r t f o r th e p o s i ti o n y o u a r e ta k i n g o r it w a s j u s t a
d is c u s s io n b e t w e e n y o u a n d M s ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o , I w a s s u p p o r t in g h e r b e c a u s e

she was expressing.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I s t h e p e r s o n n o w w h o w a s i n t h e
H R r o le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S h e w a s e x p r e s s i n g th e r e a s o n s

why it cannot be done.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d I w a s th e r e t o p r o v i d e s u p p o r t
f o r h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To s u p p o r t a n d s a y w e a r e n o t a b l e
to do it.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e a r e c o n s tr a in e d f o r th e r e a s o n s
t h a t h a d b e e n g iv e n t o t h e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h i ls t w e w e r e s ti ll d e l ib e r a ti n g o n
t h e m a t t e r, M s K w i n a n a w a lk s in t o th e o ffi c e , m y o ff ic e a n d fi n d s th e
t h r e e o f u s a n d w h i ls t w e a r e s ti ll b u s y s h e s t a n d s t h e r e s h e s a y s t o
C h a ir, y o u w o n ’ t b e l i e v e w h a t D o c to r D a h w a h a s j u s t t o l d m e . S o t h e
C h a ir … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t e v e n b e fo r e g r e e t i n g y o u o r a n y t h i n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o g r e e ti n g , n o .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o g r e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S t r a i g h t i n t o th e o ffic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , s h e ’s t a lk i n g t o t h e C h a ir ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S h e s a y s , y o u w o n ’t b e li e v e w h a t

D o c to r D a h w a h a s ju s t t o ld m e . I a s k e d h i m t o p r e p a r e , t h is m o r n in g I
asked him to prepare the awards and he went back and he was going to
b e b e t t e r a n d n o w h e c o m e s b a c k t o t e l l m e th a t h e h a s m e t w i th T h u l i
a n d T h u l i s a y s … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Meaning yourself?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M e a n i n g m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e y a r e r e fe r r i n g t o m e . M y c a l l

n a m e is T h u l i, C h a ir, a n d s a y s t h a t a n d D a h w a s a y s T h u li s a i d h e
m u s t n ’t s i g n .
CHAIRPERSON: He must?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e m u s t n ’ t s ig n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e m u s t n o t s ig n ? Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e m u s t n ’ t s ig n t h e a w a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: The awards, yes.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . S o M s M o o d l e y i s s i tt i n g t h e r e
a n d s h e i s , y o u k n o w h e r e y e s a r e ju s t p o p p i n g o u t l ik e t h is a n d s h e i s
20

s h o c k e d a n d i t ’s r e a ll y n o t a c o m f o r t a b l e s i t u a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t M s K w i n a n a is s a y in g i s y o u r e l a te d n o w i s
d ir e c t e d a t th e C h a ir o r a t y o u r s e l f o r a t M s M o o d l e y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t t h e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e C h a ir ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I s d ir e c t e d a t th e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d I ’ m s it t in g t h e r e w i th t h e C h a ir
a n d M s M o o d le y a n d m y s e l f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I t h e n i n te r v e n e d a n d s a id , M s
M o o d l e y m u s t e x c u s e h e r s e lf s o th a t I c a n h a v e a d is c u s s i o n w i th M s
K w in a n a a n d t h e C h a ir. S o s h e th e n e x c u s e d h e r s e l f . S o a n d t h e n I
10

in v i te d M s K w i n a n a t o s i t d o w n b e c a u s e s h e w a s s t a n d in g a n d s h e w a s
a n d t h e n s h e d i d s i t d o w n . A n d t h e n s h e t h e n s a y s t o t h e C h a ir, s h e
r e p e a ts t h a t D a h w a s a y s a c ti n g C E O s a y s h e m u s t n ’t s ig n t h e
d o c u m e n ts , t h e a w a r d s a n d w e a r e w a i t in g . L e g a l is w a i ti n g to s i g n t h e
c o n tr a c ts b u t it c a n ’t s i g n c o n tr a c ts i f th e y d o n ’t g e t t h e s ig n e d a w a r d s .
S o w e a r e w a i ti n g f o r t h a t a n d t h e n I s a i d t o M s K w in a n a , c a n y o u
p l e a s e c a ll D o c t o r D a h w a s o t h a t w e d o n ’t s p e a k in a t h ir d p e r s o n a n d I
a ls o a p p r e c i a t e i f y o u d ir e c t to m e . D o n ’t s p e a k to m e o n t h e th ir d
p e r s o n a s i f I ’ m n o t p r e s e n t i n t h e m e e ti n g . S o p le a s e c a l l D o c to r
D a h w a s o t h a t t h e f o u r o f u s c a n s i t a n d I c a n t e l l y o u fir s t- h a n d w h a t

20

e x a c tl y h a p p e n e d a n d h e c a n te ll y o u w h a t h a p p e n e d . S o w e w a i t t h e r e ,
D o c to r D a h w a is b e i n g c a l le d . I t’s a b i t t e n s e w h i l e s ti ll w a i t in g . T h e n
D o c to r D a h w a a r r i v e s a n d h e jo in s t h e m e e ti n g . W h e n h e jo in s t h e
m e e ti n g I th e n s a id , c a n I s h a r e w i t h y o u w h a t h a p p e n e d e a r l ie r. A n d
t h e n I s a id t o D o c t o r D a h w a y o u c a n th e n ta k e i t fr o m th e r e a n d t h e n I
s a i d M s K w i n a n a o n c e I h a v e s a i d D o c to r D a h w a h a s s a i d , y o u c a n t h e n

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a t t h e m a t t e r ; a d d to t h e m a t te r f o r w a r d . S o I t h e n s a id , e x p l a in e d to
t h e m t h a t D o c to r D a h w a c a m e t o my o ffic e , t h is w a s t h e s to r y. Th is is
w h a t w e h a v e d is c u s s e d a n d D o c to r D a h w a h a d a lr e a d y p u t my n a m e
t h e r e i n p l a c e o f h i m a s a C P O t o s ig n a n d I h a d t h e n , I s a i d n o a n d w e
d is c u s s e d th e r e a s o n s . A n d I s a i d , I h a d r e q u e s te d D o c t o r D a h w a t o
e x p l a i n t o m e a s th e c h i e f p r o c u r e m e n t o ffic e r a n d a s a p r o f e s s i o n a l
w h o h a s g o t a P h D i n s u p p ly - c h a in to e x p l a i n t o m e w h y h e ’s n o t
s ig n in g t h e d o c u m e n t s . A n d D o c to r D a h w a e x p l a i n e d t o m e w h y h e ’s n o t
s ig n in g th e d o c u m e n t . I t h e n lo o k e d a t t h e d o c u m e n ts m y s e l f a n d I
10

a g r e e w i th th e d e c is io n th a t h e m u s tn ’ t s ig n . I t h e n a d v is e d D o c to r
D a h w a t o g o a n d c h a n g e t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d p u t h is n a m e a n d p u t m y
n a m e a n d h e m u s t w r i t e i n p la c e o f a s i g n a tu r e w h y h e ’s n o t a p p r o v in g
a n d s i g n i n g t h is a w a r d a n d t h e n I w il l d o t h e s a m e . I e v e n s a i d t o h i m I
w i ll s u p p o r t h i m b u t I’ ll o n ly s u p p o r t h i m i f h e d o e s t h e r i g h t th in g . A n d
I s a i d t o t h e m , i f a t y o u r le v e l w i t h a P h D in s u p p l y - c h a i n , y o u w a n t to
s ig n t h is d o c u m e n t u n d e r th e p r e m is e s t h a t y o u a r e b e i n g f o r c e d to
s ig n , I s a i d to h i m y o u a r e o n y o u r o w n . I s a i d t o h i m i f t h i s m a t te r g o e s
t o C o u r t , th e M a g i s tr a t e o r t h e J u d g e p r e s i d in g w i ll l o o k a t y o u r
q u a li fi c a t io n s a n d w i ll h a v e n o s y m p a t h y t o y o u . S o I s a i d y o u d o t h e

20

r ig h t t h i n g a n d i f y o u d o t h e r ig h t t h i n g y o u h a v e m y s u p p o r t . A n d I t h e n
f u r th e r o n e x p l a i n e d , I s a i d t h is o n e o f E n g e n y o u h a v e w r i tt e n h e r e 1 0
y e a r s a n d 1 0 y e a r s is a g a i n s t t h e r e g u l a ti o n s o f N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y. A n y
c o n tr a c ts a b o v e f iv e y e a r s h a s t o b e r e f e r r e d b l a h b la h b la h . A n d th e n
C h a ir p e r s o n s a y s to m e , y o u a r e f a il in g t o s h o w le a d e r s h i p . A g a in y o u
a r e f a i li n g to s h o w l e a d e r s h ip . S o w h y d o n ’ t y o u t e l l u s , w h a t is t h e

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t e r m t h a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y w il l a c c e p t s o th a t w e c a n a m e n d t h is
a w a r d ? I s a i d is n o t u p to m e , C h a ir t o d e c id e t h e t e r m . T h e te r ms a r e
in th e te n d e r d o c u m e n t. I c a n ’ t n o w i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h is t e n d e r d e c i d e d
t o c h a n g e t h e t e r m s o f th e te n d e r. S o y o u w i ll b e in f o r m e d a b o u t w h a t ’s
in t h e t e n d e r b u t t h e p o i n t a t t h is t i m e i s t h a t t h e r e is n o t e n d e r f o r
J a m ic r o n . T h e r e is n o t e n d e r f o r t h is y e t t o b e n a m e d C o n s o r ti u m . T h is
d i d n ’ t f a l l th e d u e p r o c e s s a t a ll . S o w e h a v e n o b u s in e s s t o b e s i t ti n g
h e r e r i g h t n o w t a l k i n g a b o u t s i g n i n g o ff a w a r d s o f t e n d e r s . S o M s
K w in a n a th e n s a i d , o k a y w e ’ ll w r i t e t h e r e , o k a y w e ’ ll m a k e i t t h r e e
10

y e a r s , s o m e t h in g li k e th a t . S h e w r o t e o n p ie c e o f p a p e r, t o o k i t fr o m
D o c to r D a h w a a n d s a y s w il l m a k e i t t h r e e y e a r s , s o m e th i n g lik e a l s o
w h a t e ls e . W h a t e ls e s h o u l d w e d o to r e g u l a r i z e t h i s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t li k e t h a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J u s t li k e th a t . A n d I s a id , I w is h t o
r e p e a t my s e l f t h a t w h a t I h a v e j u s t s a i d n o w i s , t h e r e is n o b a s is o f
a w a r d in g o f a n y te n d e r u n d e r th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s . S o y o u c a n w r i t e a n d
a s k h i m t o c h a n g e . I t’ ll s t il l b e i r r e g u l a r a n d I l o o k e d a t D o c t o r D a h w a . I
s a i d , D o c t o r D a h w a , y o u h a v e t o d o t h e r i g h t th i n g a n d y o u w i ll g e t m y
s u p p o r t . I f y o u d o n ’ t d o t h e r i g h t th i n g th is w il l c o m e b a c k a n d b i te y o u .

20

S o i t ’s n o t a v e r y l o n g , l o n g a ft e r n o o n , C h a ir a n d D o c t o r D a h w a i s …
( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I n th e m e a n t i m e , th e l e tt e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t f o r Mr

P h o h l e l i.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S h e ’s w a i t in g t o n o w t o b e a ls o

c a l l e d in .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o s h e w e n t t o h e r o ff ic e s o th a t

w h e n w e f in is h w i t h t h is a n d t h e n s h e c a n b e c a ll e d i n . S o D o c t o r
D a h w a t h e n is s u p p o s e d to g o b a c k t o h is o ffic e t o a ls o c h a n g e t h i s o n e
that says 10 years.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u h a v e m a d e i t c l e a r th a t t h e r e is n o b a s i s t o

a w a r d a n y te n d e r fo r w h a te v e r t i m e . W h a t is th e a n s w e r th a t e i t h e r M s
K w in a n a o r M s M y e n i o r b o t h g iv e to y o u f o r th a t ? W h a t is t h e ir
a r g u m e n t a g a i n s t y o u r p o in t ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e a r g u m e n t s a y s i t ’s a B o a r d

r e s o l u ti o n , it h a s t o b e d o n e a n d i t h a d t o b e d o n e o n t h a t Fr i d a y. Th e y
a ls o m e n ti o n e d t h a t t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g h o m e w i t h o u t t h o s e t w o a w a r d s
s ig n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s th e r e a lr e a d y a B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n a b o u t t h e s e

t w o a w a r d s o r y o u w e r e h e a r in g th a t fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o I w a s h e a r i n g f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A s a w a y o f e n f o r c in g a n

in s t r u c t i o n it w a s th e n s a i d th a t i t ’s a B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n a n d w h e n y o u
20

a s k f o r a B o a r d R e s o lu t io n i t w il l d o n e , t o m o r r o w it w il l b e o r g a n is e d , i t
w i ll b e d o n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h it ’s n o t t h e r e y e t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o it ’s n o t t h e r e y e t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o n o w D r D a h w a g o e s t o h is

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o ffic e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e m e e t in g a b o u t t h e t w o a w a r d s e n d s a t th a t

s t a g e o r th e y r e m a in in y o u r o ffic e , th e t w o b o a r d m e m b e r s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

No, no the two board members

a r e s ti ll i n m y o ff ic e a n d n o w . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t D r D a h w a g o e s t o h is o ffic e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , D r D a h w a n o w g o e s to t h e

o ffic e t o c h a n g e t h is t e n y e a r s t o b e fi v e y e a r s n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e is c l e a r a b o u t y o u r m e s s a g e to h i m .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s m y m e s s a g e w a s v e r y c le a r.

CHAIRPERSON: That he must do the right thing and if he doesn’t do
t h e r ig h t th i n g h e is o n h i s o w n .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o h e w e n t to h is o ffi c e f o r a

w h il e a n d t h e n h e c o m e s b a c k , in t h e m e a n t i m e w h il e h e ’s g o n e I w a s
a s k e d t o c a l l M s M o o d l e y f o r th e le t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t a n d b e f o r e M s
M o o d l e y a r r iv e s D r D a h w a a r r i v e s a n d h e t h e n s a y s th a t t h e r e is n o o n e
in m y o ffic e , th e y a l l l e f t , s o I d o n ’ t h a v e s u p p o r t t o w o r k o n th e s e
20

d o c u m e n ts , a n d n o w t h e a r g u m e n t s t a r ts a g a i n t h a t i t n e e d s t o b e d o n e ,
it n e e d s t o b e d o n e t o d a y a n d a ll th a t , a n d a ll t h a t .
A n d t h e n I t h e n s to o d u p , I s a id I h a v e p u t in m y in p u t , I h a v e
m a d e m y c o m m e n ts , m y c o m m e n t s a r e t h e r e ’s n o b a s is f o r a n y a w a r d s
t o b e is s u e d a n d I d o n ’ t t h i n k I h a v e a n y t h i n g f u r t h e r t o s a y, a s f a r a s
t h a t i s c o n c e r n e d . I s a i d to D r D a h w a , D r D a h w a I s a y i t a g a i n f o r th e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
la s t ti m e , i f y o u s i g n e d a n d c l a i m e d t h a t y o u w e r e fo r c e d t o s i g n y o u ’ r e
o n y o u r o w n , a n d t h e n I l e f t , I p a c k e d , b e c a u s e i t w a s m y o ffi c e , I w e n t
a n d p a c k e d m y l a p t o p , I p a c k e d m y b a g a n d I le f t , b e c a u s e I h a d
n o t h i n g f u r t h e r t o s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e a v in g th e m i n y o u r o ffi c e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

L e a v i n g t h e m i n m y o ff ic e .

CHAIRPERSON: Were you quite fed-up?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I t is a n u n d e r s ta t e m e n t.

Now Ms Mpshe I am looking at the conduct of Ms

K u n a n a a n d M s M y e n i a s y o u d e s c r ie d i t. T h e y w i ll c o m e h e r e a n d th e y
w i ll g iv e th e i r e v i d e n c e , m a y b e t h e y w i ll d e n y w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ,
m a y b e th e y w i ll d i s p u t e a n d a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y I w il l m a k e a fi n d i n g
a s t o w h a t t h e tr u t h is b u t a s s u m in g t h a t w h a t y o u a r e te ll in g i s w h a t
h a p p e n e d I j u s t h a v e t h is p r o b le m o f h o w – m a y b e l e t m e t a lk a b o u t M s
Kunana, a Chartered Accountant, who should know how business runs,
h o w s h e w o u ld n o t h a v e a p p r e c i a t e d t h a t h a v i n g a w a r d e d a t e n d e r to
s o m e b o d y y o u c a n ’ t ju s t u n i la t e r a l ly c h a n g e t h e t e r m s a n d s a y y o u a r e
g o i n g t o d o s o m u c h w o r k a n d w e a r e g o i n g t o p a y s o m u c h , s u d d e n ly
w e r e d u c e th a t to 7 0 % a n d 3 0 % w o u l d g o t o s o m e b o d y e l s e , a n d in t h e

20

c a s e o f th e o n e e n ti ty w e d o n o t e v e n k n o w y e t w h o t h a t p e r s o n w i ll b e
o r t h a t e n t i ty w il l b e , a n d w i t h o u t c o m in g b a c k t o th e c o m p a n y a n d s a y
o k a y w e m a y b e h a v in g t h i s l a u d a b l e c a u s e , t h is g o o d c a u s e o f
tr a n s fo r m a t i o n th a t w e w a n t t o d o b u t b e f o r e w e d o it w e n e e d to p u t i n
p l a c e p r o c e s s e s , c h a n g e p o li c i e s t o b e a l i g n e d w i t h w h a t w e n o w w a n t
t o d o a n d p u t p r o c e d u r e s s o th a t fo r m n o w fr o m a c e r t a i n ti m e o n w a r d s

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
e v e r y b o d y w il l k n o w t h e s e a r e th e p r o c e s s e s , t h e s e a r e t h e p r o c e d u r e s ,
t h is is t h e n e w p o l ic y.

I j u s t s tr u g g le t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w s h e c o u ld

in s is t o n t h in g s b e i n g d o n e t h i s w a y k n o w i n g a ll o f th e s e t h i n g s , a n d
y e t it is d i ffic u lt t o s a y s h e d i d n o t k n o w t h e s e t h in g s a n d i t is d i ff ic u l t
to

say

being

a

Chartered

A c c o u n ta n t

she

would

not

have

an

a p p r e c ia t io n o f t h e s e t h i n g s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a i r i t w a s a ls o , w e l l t o d a y i t is

s t il l m i n d b o g g li n g a s t o w h y, b u t a ls o i n r e s p e c t o f t h is w h o l e t h i n g , o f
t h e s e a w a r d s , t h i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , I t h in k h e r e i n t h e p a c k in m y
10

e v i d e n c e t h a t i n d ic a t e s t h a t in d i c a t e s t h a t D r – M s K u n a n a w r i t e s to D r
D a h w a a n d s a y s t h a t I w a n t to b u y a s h e l f c o m p a n y, a n d t o r e g is te r,
t h is s u p p o s e d ly n e w c o m p a n y, a n d th e n M r P e te r Ts h is e v h e , w h o is
la w y e r a n d in th e p a n e l a t S A A , w h o is c u r r e n tly a B o a r d m e m b e r a t
S A A , w i ll r e g i s te r t h e c o m p a n y, a n d th e n t h e r e is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e to
t h a t e ff e c t t h a t h e w r i t e s a n d s a y s D r D a h w a d o n ’ t w o r r y I w il l b u y a
s h e l f c o m p a n y, Mr P e t e r Ts h is e v h e w i ll r e g is t e r f o r u s .

M r Ts h i s e v h e

r e s p o n d s to s a y t h a t y e s I w i ll r e g is t e r a n d d o n ’ t w o r r y a b o u t th a t , I w il l
m a k e s u r e t h a t t h a t is c o v e r e d , a n d Mr Ts h i s e v h e a ls o is a la w y e r, h e
w a s i n t h e p a n e l o f S A A , h e is b o a r d m e m b e r c u r r e n t ly a t S A A s o h o w
20

d o y o u c o m b i n e a n d r e c o n c il e a l l t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h a n g o n , a r e y o u s a y i n g t o m e i n r e g a r d to t h e

e n t i ty t h a t M s K u n a n a a n d Ms M y e n i w e r e s a y i n g w o u ld b e a B B B E E
p a r t n e r t o o n e o f t h e t w o c o m p a n i e s w h ic h a l r e a d y h a d c o n tr a c ts , a r e
y o u s a y i n g s h e w a s th e o n e w h o w o u l d b u y a s h e lf c o m p a n y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M s K u n a n a s a i d s h e w il l b u y a

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
s h e l f c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A s h e l f c o m p a n y th a t w o u ld u l t i m a te ly b e t h e B E E

partner of, was it Engen?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Engen?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t s h e w a s s a y i n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t ’s in w r i t in g ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Th a t is i n w r it i n g , it is a n e m a i l , i t

is h e r e i n th e e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I n o t h e r w o r d s s h e w a s g o i n g to b e n e fi t fr o m t h is

30%?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I’ m n o t s u r e w h a t i t m e a n t b y

s a y in g I w il l b u y t h e s h e lf c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON: But why would you buy if you are not going to be part
o f t h e w h o l e t h in g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

J a , t h a t ’s w h a t s h e i n d ic a te d , I ’ m

n o t s u r e C h a ir i f s h e w a s g o in g t o d ir e c t ly b e n e fi t , a n d f o l lo w in g o n th a t
20

M s M y e n i g i v e a lis t o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t s h e w r i t e s o n a n e m a il t h a t
n e e d s to b e p a r t o f t h a t c o m p a n y, th e r e is a ls o a n e m a il to t h a t e ff e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h a n k y o u , I ’ m s u r e w e w i ll g o t o t h e e m a i l in

due course.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . A n d te ll m e t h e s e e v e n t s o f t h e
2 n d o f O c to b e r t h e y h a p p e n a f t e r y o u h a v e b e e n – a f t e r y o u h a v e h a d a

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m e e ti n g w it h B E E C o m m i s s i o n e r i n S e p t e m b e r a n d a f te r y o u h a v e
g o t t e n a l e tt e r fr o m t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y, in f o r m i n g y o u t h a t y o u
s h o u l d s to p w i t h t h i s 3 0 % s e t a s i d e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir I a m j u s t . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e w a i ti n g f o r a s s is ta n c e o n i d e n t i fy i n g w h e r e

t h e le t t e r is .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s o n i d e n ti f y in g t h e e x a c t th i n g .

O k a y a lr i g h t , le t ’s c o n ti n u e i n t h e m e a n ti m e w i t h

o th e r p o i n t s o r o th e r m a t t e r s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s I w i ll c o m e b a c k to t h is is s u e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l c o m e b a c k .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : L e t’s g o n o w t o t h e e v e n ts t h a t l e d t o y o u r
r e m o v a l a s t h e A c ti n g C E O . W e a r e n o w a w a r e t h a t y o u w e r e r e m o v e d
o n t h e 1 3 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 , j u s t te ll u s . .. ( in t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry Ms Buthelezi, Ms Mpshe we know that you

le f t Ms K u n a n a a n d M s M y e n i i n y o u r o ffi c e a n d y o u d e c i d e d to g o
home.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u l e a v e M s M o o d l e y w i t h th e m ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M s M o o d le y w a s th e n b e i n g

called.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s h e w a s i n t h e p r o c e s s o f b e i n g c a l le d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s s h e w a s c o m i n g .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e w a s c o m i n g b u t s h e d i d n ’ t fi n d y o u th e r e .

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o o n m y w a y I m e t w it h h e r a t

t h e li f ts w h e n s h e w a s c o m in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. B u t w e r e n ’ t y o u t h e o n e w h o w a s s u p p o s e d
t o s i g n t h e l e t t e r o f a p p o in t m e n t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o p r e p a r e th e

le t t e r a n d s i g n i t f o r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n fr o m t h e C E O , f o r t h e l e t te r o f
a p p o i n t m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , b u t y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g t o h a v e to s i g n t h a t d a y i f
y o u w e r e g o in g to s i g n i t?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a i r I h a d h a d i t f o r t h e d a y.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. (Laughing) yes.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o I m e t w i t h h e r o n th e li f ts a n d

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t b e f o r e y o u m e t h e r d i d y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e

le t t e r t o M s My e n i b e f o r e y o u le f t t o s a y . . . ( in t e r v e n ti o n )
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

We didn’t have a chance because

then Dr Dahwa was, yes Dr Dahwa came.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, a lr ig h t , y e s o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

A n d I m e t M s M o o d l e y a t t h e li f ts

c o m i n g t o s e e t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h e le t t e r a n d w h e n I m e e t h e r o n t h e l if t
I j u s t s a i d to h e r I a m o ff a n d y o u d o t h e r ig h t t h in g , i f y o u d o t h e r i g h t
thing you have my support.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d I e m p h a s iz e d t o h e r I s a i d I

d o n ’t w a n t a s to r y th a t y o u w e r e f o r c e d , y o u d o th e r ig h t t h in g .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And be strong.

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm, mmm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s w h a t I s a id t o M s M o o d l e y

t h e n s h e g o t o u t o f th e l i f t, I g o t i n t o t h e l if t a n d I le f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , m m m , o k a y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir I h a v e j u s t g o t t e n a c o n fir m a t i o n t h a t
the

p a r t ic u l a r

email

does

not

fo r m

part

of

th is

bundle

but

a

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t w il l b e p r e p a r e d a n d t h o s e e m a ils b e a t t a c h e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s a v e r y i m p o r t a n t l e tt e r t h a t y o u d o n o t h a v e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s i t d o e s n o t f o r m p a r t o f t h i s b u n d l e b u t
w e w ill p r e p a r e a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t t o t h a t s e s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s M p s h e w il l y o u c h e c k i f t h e r e a r e o th e r i m p o r t a n t
d o c u m e n ts t h a t m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n i n c l u d e d h e r e w h i c h a r e i m p o r t a n t
f o r u s to – fo r m e to u n d e r s t a n d e x a c t ly t h e e x t e n t o f w h a t w a s g o i n g a t
SAA?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s C h a ir t h o s e e m a i ls I h a v e a n d

t h e in v e s t i g a t o r h a s t h e m a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
20

A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

W e w i ll g o t h r o u g h t h e e m a i ls w i th M s

M p s h e a n d th e i n v e s t ig a t o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , a n d t h e n a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it c a n b e d o n e

a n d i f t h e r e m o r e m o r e , c h e c k i f t h e r e a r e m o r e d o c u m e n t s , m in u t e s o f
m e m o ’s . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t m a y h a v e b e e n le f t o u t .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . th a t a r e n o t h e r e b u t w h ic h a r e i m p o r t a n t I w a n t t o
– I want them to be placed before me.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , le t ’s m o v e o n t o t h e n e x t t o p ic .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t j u s t t o r o u n d o ff b e c a u s e I w a s h o p i n g w e w o u ld
s e e t h e l e t t e r, a s f a r a s y o u r e c a ll i t w a s a le t t e r o r e m a i l fr o m M s
K u n a n a a d d r e s s e d to w h o m , t h a t w a s s a y in g s h e w a s g o i n g t o b u y a
s h e l f c o m p a n y.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It w a s a l e t te r a d d r e s s e d to M r

D a h w a a n d t h e C h a ir w a s c o p i e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O n t h e l e tt e r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d M r P e t e r Ts h is e v h e w a s a ls o

c o p i e d a n d th e w a y M s K u n a n a i n d ic a t e d th a t s h e w il l b u y a s h e l f
c o m p a n y a n d t h e c o m p a n y w il l th e n b e r e g is te r e d b y M r P e t e r
Ts h is e v h e w h o w ill t h e n d o th e r e g is tr a ti o n a n d w h o is i n t h e p a n e l o f
S A A , i t is m e n t i o n e d i n t h e e m a il .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r w h a t p u r p o s e , w h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e th e p u r p o s e
of her buying the shelf company?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t ’s to f o r m t h is n e w c o n s o r ti u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld b e n e fi t fr o m t h e 3 0 % .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s th e y h a d t o b e n a m e d

C o n s o r t iu m .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : It h a d t o b e n a m e d C o n s o r ti u m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s o n th e e n g i n e y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o t h e le t t e r o f a w a r d th a t w a s g o i n g t o t h a t M s
K u n a n a a n d Ms M y e n i w a n te d D r D a h w a to w r i t e t o E n g e n , w h i l e s a y i n g
t h a t 3 0 % o f t h is te n d e r w i ll h a v e t o g o t o a y e t t o b e n a m e d i n e ff e c t , a
y e t to b e n a m e d c o n s o r t iu m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e i s a l e t te r o r e m a i l t h a t
M s K u n a n a w r o t e to D r D a h w a i n i n e ffe c t s a y in g th a t th e c o n s o r ti u m ,
10

t h a t s h e w o u ld b u y a s h e l f c o m p a n y t h a t w o u l d b e p a r t o f th e
c o n s o r ti u m t h a t s h o u l d g e t t h a t 3 0 % o f t h e te n d e r t o E n g e n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P H S H E :

th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, i n a d d i ti o n

M s M y e n i a ls o i n a n e m a i l w r o t e a l is t o f t h e p e o p le t h a t’s s u p p o s e d to
b e p a r t o f th a t te n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u ’v e g o t a ll o f t h o s e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I have.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u a ls o d o n ’ t h a v e t h a t o n e ?

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

Ye s w e w i ll fi n d th o s e d o c u m e n t s a n d

p r e p a r e a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e l e t’s g e t a ll o f t h e m b u t ju s t e x a m i n e m o r e
if t h e r e a r e m o r e i m p o r ta n t d o c u m e n ts t h a t g iv e , t h a t w i ll g i v e m e a s
f o ll o w s a p ic t u r e o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a s p o s s i b le
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll d o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , C h a ir l e t ’s g o t h e e v e n ts t h a t le d a n d
f o ll o w e d y o u r r e m o v a l a s a n A c t i n g C E O n o w. Yo u w e r e r e m o v e d a s a n
a c ti n g C E O o n th e 1 3 t h o o f O c to b e r o f 2 0 1 5 , s o r r y i t ’s N o v e m b e r.
C h a ir t h a t O c t o b e r s h o u l d b e N o v e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

M s M p s h e f e e l fr e e t o s a y i f y o u r a ffi d a v i t s a y s

s o m e t h i n g t h a t’s n o t a c c u r a t e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o w e n e e d t o m a k e a c o r r e c t io n t h e r e , is i t
November?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o , t h i s i s n o t a c o r r e c ti o n , i t is

e v e n t s l e a d i n g to s o t h i s is c o r r e c t, s t a t e m e n t 1 0 2 , p a r a g r a p h 1 0 2 is
c o r r e c t , th a t I a m b e g i n n i n g t o h ig h li g h t . . . ( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s in t h e w r o n g h e a d i n g y o u m e a n ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t ’s n o t i n th e w r o n g h e a d in g , i t is

in th e c o r r e c t h e a d in g , i t ’s e v e n ts l e a d i n g t o m y r e m o v a l o n th e 1 3 t h o f
N o v e m b e r, s o I a m s a y i n g i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 2 th a t i t i s o n e o f th e e v e n ts
s t a r t e d o n t h e 1 3 t h o f O c to b e r, i t i s c o r r e c t , th e r e ’s n o n e e d f o r
c o r r e c t io n .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , o h o k a y, s o t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t e v e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y I ’ m s o r r y, I t h i n k I m a y b e c o n f u s i n g b o th o f
y o u . I t h o u g h t y o u l o o k e d a t h e r a s i f s h e s a id s o m e t h in g w r o n g , t h a t ’s
w h y I s a i d i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g in t h e a ff i d a v i t t h a t is n o t a c c u r a t e f e e l
fr e e to s a y t h i s is n o t a c c u r a te , d i d I mi s u n d e r s t a n d y o u r f a c i a l
e x p r e s s io n ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Yo u d i d u n d e r s t a n d m y f a c i a l

e x p r e s s io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o r r e c t ly.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C o r r e c t ly.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , w h a t i s i t s h e h a d s a id w r o n g ?
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I th i n k I h a d s a id O c to b e r, s h e w a s r e m o v e d
a s th e Ac t in g C E O o n t h e 1 3 t h o f O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y , n o t h a t ’s fi n e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I:
10

B u t t h e c o r r e c t d a t e is a c t u a ll y 1 3

November 2015.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s b e e n a l o n g d a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . M s M p s h e c o n t i n u e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B u t le t ’s y e s , t e ll u s a b o u t th is b o a r d E x c o
m e e ti n g t h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 3 t h o f O c to b e r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e C h a ir c a l le d fo r a B o a r d Ex c o

m e e ti n g o n th a t e v e n i n g o f t h e 1 3 t h o f O c to b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d th a t ’s a m e e t i n g b e t w e e n t h e B o a r d a n d th e

E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e o f m a n a g e m e n t.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s a m e e t in g b e t w e e n t h e

B o a r d a n d t h e E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e a n d in t h a t m e e ti n g i t w a s M s
K u n a n a a n d M y e n i t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s , D r T h a m b e d i d n ’ t a tt e n d t h a t

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
m e e ti n g . E x c u s e m e C h a ir.
S o th e m e e ti n g s t a r t q u it e – I th i n k i t s t a r te d a t a b o u t s i x in
the evening.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A t t h e m e e t in g t h e C h a ir o p e n e d

t h e m e e ti n g a n d i t w a s a l l a b o u t t h e c o n c e r n t h a t th e y h a v e a b o u t m y
p e r f o r m a n c e a n d a b o u t m e a s th e A c ti n g C E O .

S o t h e y a r e c o m in g

d is c u s s w it h t h e E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e , w h ic h is m y P S a n d m y
c o l l e a g u e s a b o u t a w a y f o r w a r d a n d t h e y a ls o n e e d a d v ic e fr o m my
10

c o l l e a g u e s a b o u t w h a t t o d o w i t h a n i n d iv i d u a l lik e my s e l f w h o d o e s n ’t
f o ll o w b o a r d in s t r u c t i o n s , d o e s n ’ t i m p l e m e n t b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n s , d o e s n ’ t
t a k e i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e B o a r d , t h a t r e a ll y w a s t h e g is t , th e m a in
c o n c e r n o f t h a t m e e ti n g , s o i n t h a t m e e ti n g t h e C h a i r w e n t o n a n d o n
a n d a n d s e c o n d - g u e s s i n g t h e B o a r d , w h i c h i s s o m e th i n g t h a t – I h a d a
m e e ti n g w i t h M s K u n a n a a n d D r T h a m b e e a r l i e r o n w h e r e t h e y w e r e
c a l l e d to c o m e a n d t e l l m e t h a t t h e y a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t my b e h a v i o u r,
t h a t I d o n ’ t i m p l e m e n t a n d I s h a r e i n s tr u c ti o n s w it h t h e B o a r d w it h t h e
E x c o m e m b e r s , a n d s e c o n d - g u e s s in g th e m , s o th e y w e r e y o u k n o w
tr y i n g t o p u t m e i n l i n e , s o a t t h is m e e t in g s h e r e i t e r a t e d t h e s a m e

20

t h i n g t h a t w e r e h e l d i n a n o t h e r m e e t i n g w i t h M s K u n a n a a n d D r Th a m b e
t o s a y t h a t I a m n o t t o e i n g t h e l in e , I a m n o t l is t e n i n g , I a m n o t
f o ll o w i n g i n s tr u c ti o n s a n d y o u k n o w b o r d e r in g o n i n s u b o r d i n a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w s o o n a ft e r – h o w s o o n a f t e r th e m e e t in g t h a t
w a s h e l d i n y o u r o ff ic e w a s t h i s m o r e o r le s s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e m e e ti n g w a s th e 2 n d o f

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
O c t o b e r, t h is is th e 1 3 t h o f O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a b o u t tw o w e e k s l a te r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And so Ms Kunana I don’t

r e m e m b e r h e r e v e r s a y i n g a n y t h i n g a n d t h e n t h e C h a ir w e n t t o e a c h
a n d e v e r y i n d iv id u a l a r o u n d th e t a b l e t o a s k t h e m w h a t t h e y t h i n k , w h a t
a d v ic e c a n t h e y g iv e h e r a b o u t m e , s o I r e m e m b e r M o o s a Z w a n e is t h e
t h a t w a s r e a l ly v o c a l a n d s a i d t h a t h e d o e s n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d w h y a n
10

e x e c u tiv e o r C E O w o u ld n ’t t a k e B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n s , w o u l d n ’ t i m p l e m e n t ,
w o u ld n ’t ta k e i n s tr u c ti o n s f r o m t h e B o a r d , h e d o e s n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d i t , a t
S A Te c h n i c a l th e B o a r d m e m b e r i s Ms K u n a n a a n d h e w o r k s v e r y w e ll
with

Kunana,

he

takes

i n s tr u c ti o n s ,

he

implements

the

Board

r e s o l u ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s Mr Z w a n e a t S A Te c h n ic a l , C E O ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e w a s t h e C E O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A t S A Te c h n ic a l , s o s u p p o r t in g

t h e C h a i r t h a t y o u k n o w h e d o e s n ’t u n d e r s t a n d w h y i s m y s e l f , w h y a m I
20

n o t n o w i m p l e m e n ti n g b o a r d d e c i s i o n s a n d r e s o l u ti o n s a n d s e c o n d g u e s s i n g t h e B o a r d a n d s h a r i n g w i th t h e B o a r d , w it h t h e E x c o is s u e s
fr o m t h e B o a r d , a n d , a n d , a n d , s o h e w e n t o n a n d o n a n d f e l t th a t n o h e
ju s t d o e s n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d y o u k n o w w h y a m I n o t d o in g t h a t .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , s o w a s M r Z w a n e t h e o n ly m e m b e r th a t
w a s s u p p o r ti n g t h e C h a ir o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r d a y ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

That was then yes, the other

m e m b e r s h a d n o c o m m e n ts , t h e o t h e r m e m b e r s s a i d t h a t t h e y d o n ’[ t
h a v e a p r o b le m w i th m y le a d e r s h i p , i n f a c t s o m e o f t h e m w e r e v e r y
c o m p li m e n t a r y t o m y le a d e r s h i p a n d f e l t t h a t th e y f e e l t h e y b e l o n g to
t h e Ex c o C o m m i t t e e w h e r e I c o n s u l t a l o t o n t h e m a t t e r s a n d m a t t e r s
r e l a ti n g to t h e s p e c i fi c a r e a s o f r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s I a ll o w t h e m t o
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a k e d e c is io n s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

To m a k e d e c is io n s , o r t o a d v i s e

a c c o r d i n g l y, s o t h e y fe l t t h a t t h e y w e r e q u i te c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h my
le a d e r s h i p a n d t h e y fe l t t h a t a t t h a t p o i n t e v e n th e c o m p a n y h a d
s t a b il is e d , b e g i n n i n g t o s t a b i lis e a t th a t p o in t in t i m e , a n d s o o n a n d s o
o n , t h e y a ll m a d e c o m m e n t s .
A t th e e n d o f e v e r y b o d y m a k i n g t h e c o m m e n t s t h e n I r a i s e d m y
h a n d s a n d I s a i d t o th e C h a i r I f e e l I h a v e t o d o -

o r t h e C h a ir t h e n

s a i d w e l l th e y w il l h a v e t o g o a n d d e l i b e r a t e a s th e B o a r d a n d I s a i d n o
C h a ir c a n I h a v e a r ig h t o f r e p ly, a n d s h e d i d n ’ t r e a ll y w a n t t o g iv e m e
a n o p p o r t u n i ty th e n I j u s t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t s t a r te d s p e a k i n g .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I j u s t s ta r t e d s p e a k in g a n d I s a i d

t h a t I w a n t e d to c l a r i fy a n d I w a n t e d to g iv e m y c o m m i t m e n t t o t h e
B o a r d t h a t I w il l w o r k w i t h t h e B o a r d , a n d I w i ll c o m p ly f o r a s l o n g a s
t h e in s t r u c ti o n s a r e le g a l , a r e l a w f u l t o c o m p ly w i t h t h e p o lic i e s a n d
p r o c e d u r e s to c o m p ly w i t h t h e g o v e r n a n c e fr a m e w o r k , I w i ll m a k e s u r e
t h a t t h e y a r e , a n d t h e n a r e a p p o in t e d a n d I s a i d th a t th e B o a r d a s a n

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
o v e r s ig h t b o d y, s o m e t i m e s w o u ld n ’t b e a w a r e o f th e p o lic i e s o f t h e
c o m p a n y a n d i t is m y r e s p o n s i b il it y a s t h e C E O o r A c t i n g C E O t o m a k e
t h e B o a r d a w a r e o f t h e p o li c i e s o f o p e r a t io n s o r a n y o th e r m a tt e r s t o
that

m a tt e r,

in c l u d i n g

issues

that

m ig h t

be

coming

fr o m

the

s h a r e h o l d e r, is s u e s o f g o v e r n a n c e , s o I s a id I a m c o m m i t t e d to d o it f o r
a s l o n g a s i t is l e g a l, i t is r e a s o n a b le , i t is la w f u l , i t i s c o m p li a n t w i t h
t h e p o l ic ie s , a n d I t h e n m e n ti o n e d t h a t t h e is s u e o f s h a r i n g t h e m a t t e r s ,
in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m t h e B o a r d , i t’s b e c a u s e m y c o l l e a g u e s a r e s u b je c t
m a t t e r e x p e r ts , a n d t h e n w h e n i t c o m e s t o p r o c u r e m e n t I c a n ’ t m a k e a
10

p r o c u r e m e n t d e c is io n b e c a u s e I’ m n o t a p r o c u r e m e n t e x p e r t .

When it

c o m e s t o c o m m e r c i a l m a t t e r s I w il l g e t t h e a d v ic e o f a c o m m e r c i a l
m a n a g e r, s a m e w i th o p e r a t io n s , a n d t h e n s a m e w i t h l e g a l, I a m n o t a
le g a l e x p e r t , h e n c e I u s e d th e i n - h o u s e l e g a l te a m t o d o l e g a l o p in io n s ,
b e c a u s e t h a t’s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y t h e y a r e e m p lo y e d i n th e
c o m p a n y, s o I th e n e x p l a i n e d th a t th a t ’s t h e r e a s o n a n d b e fo r e w e h a v e
b o a r d m e e ti n g s I lo o k a t t h e m a tt e r s a r is in g a n d I w i ll c a ll t h e B o a r d
m e m b e r s to s a y b e a w a r e , t h e E x c o m e m b e r s , b e a w a r e t h e s e a r e th e
m a t t e r s a r i s i n g , t h is a ffe c t s th is a n d t h i s in t h e c o m p a n y s o t h a t t h e y
a r e a w a r e , e v e n i f it i s n o t a n a r e a t h a t a ff e c ts t h e m a s E x c o m e m b e r s
20

t h e y a r e a l s o p r e s c r i b e d o ff ic e r s a n d b y l a w th e y a r e h e l d l ia b le a n d t o
b e r e s p o n s i b le f o r t h e r u n n i n g o f th e o r g a n is a t i o n s o I w a s ta k i n g i t
fr o m t h a t p r e m is e .
S o i t w a s n o t a b o u t s e c o n d - g u e s s i n g a n d I b e l ie v e i n o p e n n e s s
a n d tr a n s p a r e n c y a n d I d i d s a y t h a t I b e l i e v e in i n t e g r it y a s w e ll a s l o n g
t h e w a y.

I b e li e v e t h a t I h a v e t o d o m y w o r k w i t h i n t e g r i t y s o t h a t I

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d o n ’t h a v e t o h a v e a n y c o m e b a c k s , s o a ft e r t h a t s o r t o f p u t t in g m e
d o w n s h e t h e n s a y s n o t h e B o a r d w il l a p p l y i t s m i n d t o th is m a t te r, a n d
t h e n th a t w a s t h e e n d o f th a t m e e t i n g o f 1 3 t h O c t o b e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O f t h e 1 3 t h , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th e w h o le s u b je c t w a s – w a s t h e w h o l e s u b j e c t

y o u r – h o w y o u w e r e p e r f o r m in g a s A c ti n g C E O a n d w h a t s h o u l d b e
done about your performance?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s , a n d p r i o r t o th is m e e ti n g n e i t h e r t h e C h a r i n o r

any member of the Board had spoken to you about any of these
c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e a l l e g e d p o o r p e r f o r m a n c e o r w h a te v e r i t w a s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h M is s K u n a n a

and Dr Thambe.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s a m e d a y e a r li e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o , n o , n o e a r li e r s o m e ti m e w h e r e

a ft e r I d i d n ’ t s i g n t h e B o q w a n a B u r n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , a n d t h e y h a d a m e e t i n g w i th

m e a n d t h e m e e ti n g w a s to te ll m e t h a t t h e C h a ir is n o t h a p p y w i th th e
20

w a y I a m c a r r y i n g o n a n d a l s o n o t y o u k n o w ta k i n g i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e
B o a r d a n d i m p l e m e n ti n g B o a r d R e s o lu t io n s , s o t h e r e w a s th a t m e e ti n g
w i t h D r Th a m b e a n d M s K u n a n a t o t a lk a b o u t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t a k e i t th a t a t t h a t m e e ti n g y o u d i d te ll t h e m t h a t
a l l t h e i n s tr u c t io n s th a t y o u h a d r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e B o a r d o r fr o m th e
C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w e r e a s f a r a s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d la w f u l , y o u h a d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
carried out and the ones you had not carried out were those you
t h o u g h t w e r e n o t la w f u l , I t a k e i t t h a t t h a t ’s w h a t y o u s a i d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s w h a t I ’v e e x p l a in e d C h a ir to

them, to Ms Kunana and Dr Thambe.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y ta k e a d i ff e r e n t v ie w th a t th e r e w e r e c e r t a i n
s p e c i f ic i n s tr u c t io n s t h a t w e r e l a w f u l a n d y o u d id n ’t c o m p ly w i t h o r d o
t h e y n o t p u t u p a n y a r g u m e n t a s t o w h y t h o s e w e r e l a w f u l?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o C h a ir t h e r e w a s j u s t t a lk i n

general.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o I th e n s a i d t h e s a m e to t h e

C h a ir a t t h is m e e ti n g o f t h e 1 3 t h O c t o b e r, I c o n v e y e d t h e s a m e m e s s a g e
t h a t a n y th in g w h ic h i s l a w fu l , is c o m p li a n t I w il l a n d i f I b e li e v e t h a t t h e
B o a r d is n o t a w a r e o r tr a n s g r e s s in g a p o l ic y I w i ll b r i n g i t t o t h e ir
a tt e n ti o n a n d a n y w h e r e I w o u ld ta k e a n i n s tr u c ti o n a s l o n g a s it ’s
la w fu l ,

and

c o m p l ie s

with

the

p o lic ie s

of

the

company

and

a

m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d in g w i t h t h e s h a r e h o l d e r, le g a l fr a m e w o r k I
20

w i ll c o m p ly.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Th a n k y o u , s o t h a t ’s h o w t h a t m e e ti n g

e n d e d t h e n o n t h e 1 3 t h o f O c t o b e r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t’s h o w t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s , th e n y o u th e n m a k e a r e fe r e n c e to a

m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a d i n D u r b a n , w h o a t te n d e d th is m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , th e C h a i r c a ll e d m e to a

m e e ti n g i n D u r b a n a n d i t w a s j u s t t h e C h a i r a n d m y s e l f . S h e h a d c a l l e d
m e e a r l y Fr i d a y e v e n i n g t o c o m e t o D u r b a n th e n e x t d a y o n a S a tu r d a y.
U n f o r t u n a t e ly, w e h a d a f a m il y c o m m i t m e n t a n d I c o u ld n ’ t m a k e i t a n d
t h e n I m a k e i t f ir s t t h in g o n M o n d a y m o r n i n g a n d t h e n I w e n t t o D u r b a n .
A n d w h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e , i t w a s a t t h e B e v e r l y H ill s H o te l a n d i t w a s
10

o n ly t h e C h a ir a n d my s e l f a t t h e m e e ti n g .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . S o w h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d i n t h is m e e ti n g
b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d th e C h a ir ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
s a y in g

fi r s t

of

all,

here

are

A t t h e m e e ti n g , t h e C h a i r w a s

concerns

fr o m

unions

about

the

r e tr e n c h m e n t p r o c e s s . I n f a c t , i t s t a r t e d fi r s t b y s h o w i n g m e w i th
p r a is e s a b o u t w h a t a g o o d j o b I ’ m d o i n g a n d t h e n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d h e a l w a y s t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s d a n g e r c o m i n g
w h e n y o u w e r e s h o w e r e d w i t h p r a is e s b y h e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d s o , a n d th is c o m e s a f t e r n u m b e r o f

c o n c e r n s r a is e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A b o u t y o u r p e r f o r m a n c e e a r li e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a , t h i s is n o w 2 7 O c t o b e r.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And then she was saying…

( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e t h e p r a i s e s , d i d t h e p r a is e s r e l a t e t o y o u r

performance or something else?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r p e r f o r m a n c e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s h o w w e l l I ’ m p e r f o r m in g , h o w
m y c o l le a g u e s a r e c o m p l i m e n ta r y o n m y p e r f o r m a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d s h e a ls o n o t ic e d th a t I d i d n ’ t
a p p ly ; t h e j o b o f t h e C E O h a d b e e n a d v e r ti s e d . S h e t h e n in f o r m e d m e
t h a t s h e n o ti c e d t h a t I d i d n ’ t a p p ly f o r t h e p o s it i o n o f t h e C E O . W h y
d i d n ’ t I a p p l y ? A n d I s a id t o h e r, C h a ir a s y o u k n o w I d i d in d ic a t e t o y o u
t h a t I’ m n o t i n t e r e s t e d in t h e p o s i t io n o f a C E O o f S A A a n d i n a n y c a s e
t h e p o s i t io n h a d c lo s e d . S o t h a t r e a lly r u l e s m e o u t . A n d t h e n s h e s a y s
t o m e n o , n o , n o i f y o u ’r e i n t e r e s t e d j u s t f o r w a r d m e y o u r C V.

20

R e m e m b e r I ’ m in c h a r g e o f t h i s p r o c e s s a n d I’ ll d o t h e r e s t . I s a i d , n o
t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n t h e – t h e c lo s in g , d o y o u m e a n t h e c l o s in g
d a t e fo r t h e s u b m is s i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A p p li c a ti o n s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f a p p lic a t io n s h a d c o m e a n d g o n e ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , h a d c o m e a n d g o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s h e s a i d , i f y o u g i v e h e r C V.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e w i ll c o n s i d e r i t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d a ft e r t h e s e c o m p li m e n ts f r o m
m y c o ll e a g u e s . A n d th is i s n o w fo ll o w i n g t h a t m e e t i n g o f t h e 1 3 t h . S o
n o w i t s a y s m y c o ll e a g u e s g i v e m e c o m p l i m e n t s a n d t h e n s h e s a y s t o
10

m e , o h I’ m j u s t w o n d e r in g a ls o y o u k n o w i f y o u c a n s e e t h e p e o p l e w h o
h a v e a p p l ie d . I s a i d , C h a i r I’ m c o n fl ic te d a n d I d o n ’ t w a n t t o k n o w a n d
I’ m n o t p a r t o f t h e p r o c e s s a n d I t h i n k it ’s n o t p r o fe s s i o n a l . P le a s e
d o n ’t t e l l m e w h o a p p l ie d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h i s w a s n o w b e fo r e s h e o r t h e B o a r d c o u ld c o m e
b a c k t o y o u o r e x c o t o s a y w h a t t h e o u tc o m e w a s o f th e a p p l ic a t i o n o f
t h e ir m in d to t h e is s u e th e y p u t b e f o r e e x c o ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

20

T h e y h a d n o t c o m m u n ic a t e d

f o r m a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e o u tc o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I t h e n s h e w a n t e d t o k n o w w h a t
m y p la n i n m y l if e a n d s h e s a y s s h e w a n ts to r e tir e . I s a i d , C h a ir I’ m

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
g o i n g t o r e t ir e . E v e n i f I f o r m a l ly r e ti r e a t w o r k , I’ m g o i n g t o c o n t in u e to
w o r k b e c a u s e I h a v e p l a n s y o u k n o w a n d p la n s t h a t I h a v e e v e n b e y o n d
r e tir e m e n t d o n ’ t in c l u d e m e s i t t in g n o t d o i n g a n y w o r k . A n d s h e w a n t e d
t o k n o w t h e p la n s , I s a i d n o p l a n s a r e p e r s o n a l . L e t ’s r a th e r n o t t a lk
a b o u t t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l , i t m a y m e a n t h a t s h e k e p t a n o p e n m i n d d u r in g
t h a t m e e ti n g . Yo u s a id s o m e o f y o u r c o l le a g u e s c o m p li m e n te d y o u a n d
s o o n . N o w s u b s e q u e n tly s h e g iv e s p r a is e s o n y o u r p e r fo r m a n c e a n d
s h e a c k n o w le d g e s t h a t y o u r c o ll e a g u e s s a i d t h e y w e r e c o m f o r t a b l e ,
10

t h e y w e r e h a p p y w it h y o u r p e r f o r m a n c e . M a y b e s h o w s s h e h a d k e p t a n
o p e n m in d . W h a t d o y o u s a y to t h a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t c o u l d b e .
CHAIRPERSON: It could be, yes.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y, C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o a ft e r t h a t t h e n w e c l o s e t h e

m a t t e r t h a t I ’ m n o t i n t e r e s t e d , I w i ll n o t a p p ly. S o j u s t t h e i s s u e th a t
y o u k n o w g e t i t o u t o f t h e w a y. S o a f te r t h a t s h e t h e n s a id t o m e , th e r e
is c o m p l a i n ts f r o m t h e u n i o n s t h a t a b o u t t h e r e tr e n c h m e n t p r o c e s s t h a t
20

h a p p e n e d w h ic h w a s c o mi n g t o t h e fi n a liz a ti o n a t t h a t p o i n t i f n o t
c o m p le t e d a t t h a t ti m e . S o I s a i d n o I ’ m q u i te s u r p r is e d b e c a u s e e v e n
s o m e o f t h e u n io n s h a v e p e r s o n a ll y c o m e to m e t o c o m p le m e n t t h e
h e a d o f e m p l o y e e r e l a ti o n s w h o w a s f a c i li ta t in g t h i s p r o c e s s a n d w e
f a c i li t a te d t h is p r o c e s s u n d e r th e a u s p ic e s o f t h e C C M A . S o t h e r e a r e
in d i v i d u a l , a c t u a l ly g a v e t h e n a m e s o f in d i v id u a l s th a t p e r s o n a l ly c a m e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t o m e to c o m p l e m e n t h o w t h e m a n a g e , M r L a w r e n c e Er a s m u s h a d d o n e
t h is w o r k s o w e l l . In f a c t , i n o n e o f t h e m e e ti n g s , I t h in k c l o s i n g
m e e ti n g s t o C o m m i s s io n e r s w h o w e r e f a c i l it a ti n g th e p r o c e s s g a v e u s a
c o m p li m e n t a s a c o m p a n y a n d s a i d t h e p r o c e s s th a t w e ’v e d o n e c a n
a c t u a ll y b e u s e d a s a t e m p la t e t o d o S e c t io n 1 8 9 s i n c o m p a n i e s
b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e ti m e it ju s t b e c o m e s p r o b le m a t ic . S o I t h e n s h a r e
w i t h h e r … ( i n d is t in c t ) th a t n e w s th a t it w a s n o t d o n e p r o p e r ly a n d a n d
a n d a n d s o I ’ m n o t s u r e w h a t … ( i n d is ti n c t) is r e f e r r i n g t o . A n d th e n
fr o m t h e r e I t h e n s a id I h a d s o m e t h in g s t h a t I w a n t e d t o d is c u s s w it h
10

t h e C h a ir a n d I f e lt t h a t w e n e e d e d to s tr e a m li n e o u r c o m m u n i c a t io n i n
o u r m e e ti n g s th a t I ’ m a s t r u c t u r e d p e r s o n . S o I s a i d , I m a d e r e f e r e n c e
t o t h is m e e ti n g t h a t s h e c a ll e d m e o n Fr id a y t o fly o n S a t u r d a y t o g o t o
a m e e t in g i n D u r b a n . I s a id l o o k , I h a d f a m il y c o m m i t m e n t s g e n u in e ly I
h a d a f a m i ly c o m m i t m e n t . Th e

S a t u r d a y w e w e r e u n v e il in g t h e

t o m b s t o n e o f m y m o t h e r - i n - l a w. S o t h e r e w a s n o w a y th a t I c o u l d h a v e
g o n e t h e r e . S o I s a i d le t m e k n o w a n d I s a i d t o h e r I p r e f e r t h a t w e
s h o u l d n ’ t b e w o r k in g o v e r w e e k e n d s . Yo u k n o w I w o r k lo n g h o u r s
a lr e a d y. S o I w a n t to d e d ic a t e y o u k n o w t h e w e e k e n d s to m y f a m il y.
E v e n if I ’ m w o r k i n g b u t I w a n t to b e a t h o m e . S o a n d I th e n s a i d , t h a t I
20

s e t u p t i m e s t o y o u k n o w s tr u c tu r e w h e n w e a r e g o i n g t o h a v e m e e t i n g s
a n d t h e n i f t h e r e is a n y is s u e s t h a t y o u c a n w r i te to m e , p u t o n a n
a g e n d a a n d th e n w h e n w e m e e t w e c a n t h e n d i s c u s s . I e v e n o ffe r e d . I
s a i d I d o n ’ t e v e n m i n d c o m i n g t o D u r b a n t o m e e t w i th y o u to h a v e a
m e e ti n g w it h y o u i f i t is n o t e a s y f o r y o u t o c o m e t o J o h a n n e s b u r g
b e c a u s e i t w il l b e a b u s in e s s m e e t i n g . I t w ill b e o u r o ff ic ia l m e e ti n g b u t

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I w a n t y o u t o p u t s t r u c t u r e i n o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d th e n t h e m e e ti n g
e n d e d a n d I w a s d r iv e n b a c k t o th e a ir p o r t a n d fl e w b a c k .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e w e r e t w o t h i n g s t h a t y o u d is c u s s e d , th e tw o
o f y o u d is c u s s e d . O n e w a s t h e q u e s t i o n o f y o u a n d n o t a p p ly in g f o r t h e
p o s i ti o n o f C E O a n d h e r i n d ic a ti n g to y o u t h a t s h e w o u ld b e p r e p a r e d t o
c o n s i d e r y o u r a p p l ic a ti o n e v e n i f i t w a s a f t e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir. Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d th a t d o e s n ’ t c o m e a c r o s s a s s o m e b o d y w h o

s p e a k s li k e th a t is n o t s o m e b o d y t h a t w a n t t h i n g s , d i d n ’ t w a n t y o u t o b e
C E O . S h e s a d ly s a id , w h y d id n ’ t y o u a p p ly a n d i f y o u a p p ly n o w e v e n i f
t h e c l o s i n g d a t e is g o n e , I ’l l c o n s i d e r i t . I ’ m i n c h a r g e o f th is p r o c e s s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , I ’ m s a y in g t o y o u , s o is l ik e s h e w a n t e d y o u t o b e
CEO?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t c o u l d b e in t e r p r e te d t h a t w a y,

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t c o u ld b e . Yo u s a y i t ’s a p o s s ib le in t e r p r e t a ti o n .

T h e n th e n e x t th in g is s h e w a n t e d t o r a is e w i th y o u a c o n c e r n th a t s h e
20

s a i d l a b o u r h a d e x p r e s s e d a b o u t t h e S e c ti o n 1 8 9 p r o c e s s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s t h o s e t w o th in g s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Th a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u . T h e r e a f te r y o u w e r e t a k e n t o

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t h e a ir p o r t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , a n d t h e n I w e n t b a c k .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d t h e n n o w te ll u s a b o u t t h e c o n ta c t
t h a t w a s m a d e t o y o u b y th e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y o n t h e 1 3 t h o f
November 2015.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O n t h e 1 3 t h o f N o v e m b e r, I w a s

c o n ta c t e d b y th e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y i n f o r m in g t h a t t h e C h a ir h a s
s c h e d u l e d a m e e t in g w it h l a b o u r i n t h e a ft e r n o o n a n d t h e C h a ir w a s
c o m i n g fr o m N o r t h W e s t a n d th e n w il l b e i n t h e o ff ic e in t h e a ft e r n o o n .
10

S o I t h e n q u e r i e d t o s a y, t h e C h a ir h a v i n g a m e e ti n g w i th la b o u r w h e n
w e h a v e a b a r g a in i n g f o r u m w h e r e a l l l a b o u r, b a r g a i n i n g s tr u c t u r e .
B a r g a i n i n g fo r u m i s a s tr u c tu r e w i th l a b o u r w h e r e a l l th e is s u e s w i t h
la b o u r a r e b e in g d is c u s s e d . S o … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h e n y o u s a y l a b o u r, w h a t in f e r e n c e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I m e a n u n io n s . W h e n I’ m s a y in g

la b o u r I m e a n tr a d e u n i o n s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : B e c a u s e t h i s o n e s p e c i fic a lly s a y s ,
t h e C h a ir h a s a m e e ti n g w i t h th e u n i o n s .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

So my query was, how come the

u n i o n s r e q u e s t a m e e ti n g w i t h th e C h a i r w h e n i n t e r n a l ly t h e r e a r e
p r o c e s s e s a n d f o r a th a t c a n b e f o l lo w e d t o a d d r e s s m a t t e r s . S o I t h i n k
t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y h a d c o m m u n i c a t e d s u c h to th e C h a ir. To s a y
t h a t I s a y t h a t , fir s t o f a l l t h e u n io n h a s g o t n o r i g h t t o s u m m o n t h e

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C h a ir o f th e B o a r d t o m e e ti n g . W e h a v e i n te r n a l p r o c e s s e s th a t s h o u l d
b e f o l lo w e d i f e v e r t h e r e a r e c o n c e r n s t h a t c o m i n g fr o m t h e tr a d e u n i o n .
A n d t h e n t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y t h e n I t h i n k c o m m u n ic a t e d t h e
m e s s a g e a n d t h e n s h e t h e n c o m e b a c k to m e a n d s a i d t h a t , th e C h a i r
t h a t th e m e e ti n g is g o i n g o n a n d y o u w il l b e a t t h e m e e t i n g . S o I g o t a
message.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D i d y o u a t t e n d t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I d id a t t e n d th e m e e ti n g .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , th e n w h a t tr a n s p ir e d in t h i s m e e t in g ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t t h e m e e ti n g i t w a s M s M y e n i a n d
MS Kwinana, Doctor Thembi wasn’t there.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d i t w a s m e m b e r s o f o n e tr a d e

u n i o n n o t a l l tr a d e u n io n s a s i t w a s t o l d t h a t u n io n s . S o it w a s o n e
tr a d e u n i o n , S o u th A f r i c a n C a b i n C r e w A s s o c ia t i o n w i th th e I t h in k t h e
s h o p s t e w a r d s a n d t h e , y e s t h e le a d e r s i n t h e c o m p a n y i n t h e u n i o n . S o
w h e n I s a w t h a t , i m m e d i a t e ly m y i n c l i n a ti o n w a s , o h s o m a y b e i t i s
g o i n g t o b e is s u e s r e la t in g t o c a b i n c r e w b e c a u s e t h i s is a c a b i n c r e w
u n i o n ; tr a d e u n i o n . S o I t h e n c a ll e d Mr S e a n P i ll a y, w h o is t h e m a n a g e r
20

o f c a b i n a r e a a n d I c a ll e d M s Yv o n n e K e f a w h o w a s th e E R s p e c i a l is t
s u p p o r t in g c a b in c r e w a r e a t o c o m e to th e m e e ti n g a n d th e n c a m e t o
t h e m e e ti n g . A n d w h e n t h e y c a m e t o t h e m e e ti n g , I t h e n in tr o d u c e d
t h e m t o t h e C h a ir a n d M s K w i n a n a . To s a y t h a t I h a v e c a ll e d th e m
b e c a u s e I r e a liz e d t h a t w e m i g h t d is c u s s in g is s u e s in t h e c a b i n c r e w
a r e a . S o I f e l t th a t i t w o u l d b e a p p r o p r i a t e t o h a v e th e m a n a g e r s a n d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
t h e E R th a t w o r k in th is a r e a s p e c i f ic a l ly. A n d th e n t h e C h a ir o p e n e d
t h e m e e ti n g . W h e n t h e C h a ir o p e n e d t h e m e e ti n g , I t h e n in r e s p o n s e t o
h e r o p e n i n g , I t h e n I s a id I w is h t o p u t i t o n r e c o r d t h a t I ’ m c o n c e r n e d
a n d I’ m v e r y u n c o m f o r ta b le a t th is m e e ti n g th a t h a s b e e n a r r a n g e d i n
t h is m a n n e r r e p e a t in g w h a t I s a i d to t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y. M y b e li e f
is t h a t w e h a v e d i ff e r e n t f o r u m s w i t h i n t h e c o m p a n y w h e r e t h e u n i o n s
c a n m e e t w i t h m a n a g e m e n t a n d is s u e s c a n b e r e s o lv e d . A n d t h e C h a ir
t o l d m e t h a t t h i s i s h e r m e e t i n g . I m u s t j u s t s h u t u p a n d l is t e n a n d to e
t h e li n e a n d I d i d e x a c t ly t h a t .
10

A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : T h e n w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d in t h i s p a r t ic u l a r
m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t t h is p a r t ic u l a r m e e t in g w h a t w a s
d is c u s s e d w a s t h e c a b i n c r e w c o m p l a i n i n g a b o u t b e i n g r o s t e r e d , a b o u t
b e i n g r o s t e r e d o v e r p u b lic h o l id a y s a n d C h r is t m a s a n d N e w Ye a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ve r y o p e r a t i o n a l m a t t e r s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ve r y o p e r a ti o n a l m a t te r s . A b o u t

u n i fo r m , a b o u t i n th e c a b i n t h a t ’s c o l d o n t h e i n te r n a ti o n a l w h e r e t h e y
a r e s e r v i n g , t h e g a l le y w h ic h is v e r y c o l d o n th e i n te r n a ti o n a l
d e s ti n a t io n s . S o m e t i m e s th e y g e t fl u a n d a l l o p e r a ti o n a l m a t t e r s . S o
20

a ft e r t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t t o o k a w h i le b e c a u s e e v e r y b o d y h a d t o p u t th e i r
p i e c e . T h e m e e ti n g e n d e d a n d I t h e n le f t .
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w d id i t e n d ? T h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d a ll th e s e

c o m p la i n t s a n d h o w d i d t h e m e e t i n g e n d ? W h a t w a s t h e b a s i s o n w h ic h
it e n d e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I , w h e n t h e m e e t in g e n d e d I ju s t

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s a i d t h a t t h e r e i s p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n t h a t m e e ti n g h a v e th e ir m a n a g e r s
t h e r e . T h o s e a r e s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t a r e b e in g r e s o l v e d . I n fa c t ,
o n e o f th e m a n a g e r s s a i d th a t t h e y a r e a c t u a ll y d e a li n g w i th s o m e o f
t h e is s u e s a n d s o m e o f t h e is s u e s a r e q u i t e o p e r a t i o n a l is s u e s a n d th a t
e v e r y c a b i n c r e w w h e n t h e y a p p ly th e y k n o w t h a t w e a r e 2 4 /7
o p e r a ti o n . A t s o m e s t a g e y o u w il l w o r k o n a C h r is t m a s D a y. A t s o m e
s t a g e y o u w i ll w o r k w h a t e v e r. Fo r t h e m t o r a is e i n t h a t f o r u m t h e y a ls o
b e li e v e th a t i t w a s n o t a p p r o p r ia t e b u t h o w e v e r, I t h e n r e c o m m e n d e d
t h a t S e a n P i ll a y a n d Yv o n n e K e f a t a k e t h e m a t t e r s a n d th e n a d d r e s s
10

t h e i s s u e s a n d h a v e a f o l l o w - u p m e e t i n g w i t h t h e le a d e r s o f th e u n io n
in h o w th e y a r e g o i n g t o a d d r e s s t h e m a t t e r s . T h a t’s h o w t h e m e e t i n g
ended.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d o n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 7 , t h e la s t 2 /3 li n e s

t h e r e , y o u e x p r e s s a n o p in i o n o n w h a t y o u th o u g h t t h i s m e e ti n g w a s
m e a n t f o r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W o u l d y o u l ik e t o p la c e t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

H a s n ’t s h e c o v e r e d th a t ? S a i d t h a t m e e ti n g w a s h e r

m e e ti n g ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h e l a s t tw o l i n e s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , o n t h a t w il l h a v e g iv e n a n

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o p i n i o n t h e r e . To s a y t h a t I’ m o f t h e o p in i o n t h a t t h i s m e e t i n g t h a t w a s
t h e m e e t in g w e ’v e j u s t s p o k e n a b o u t w a s i n o r d e r t o v a l i d a t e r e a s o n s t o
fi n d f a u l t w i t h m e a n d t h e r e f o r e r e li e v e m e o f t h e p o s i t io n o f a c t in g
C E O . I t w a s m y o p in io n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t y o u s a y th a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Because there was no, for me it

w a s o p e r a t io n a l m a t te r s . Th e r e w a s n o s u b s t a n t iv e m a t t e r t h a t a c t u a ll y
r e q u ir e d m y a t te n ti o n a s th e a c ti n g C E O o n th a t p a r t ic u l a r m e e ti n g a n d
f o r m e i t fo ll o w e d u p o n t h e m e e t in g i n D u r b a n w h e r e s h e t h e n s a i d th is
10

p a r t ic u l a r u n i o n w a s n o t h a p p y a b o u t t h e 1 8 9 p r o c e s s . B u t a t t h is
m e e ti n g i t w a s n o t t h e 1 8 9 p r o c e s s . I t w a s ju s t g e n e r a l c o m p l a i n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h is m e e ti n g , d id n o t ta k e p l a c e a f t e r y o u r D u r b a n
m e e ti n g w i th ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t d i d t a k e p la c e a f te r t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: It was after?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o w I ’ m j o i n i n g th e d o ts in m y

mind.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d h e n c e I ’v e e x p r e s s e d t h a t

opinion.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t c o u l d b e t h a t i t m a y h a v e b e e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
m a y b e n o t g i v i n g e ffe c t to th e li n e b e tw e e n o p e r a t i o n a l m a t te r s a n d
n o n - o p e r a t io n a l m a t te r s , p o l ic y m a t te r s a n d s o o n a n d m a y b e t h e u n io n

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ju s t c o m p l a i n ts t o h e r a n d s a i d w e w o u l d lik e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o h e a r
u s a n d s h e a g r e e d to h a v e a m e e t i n g w i t h t h e m a n d h e a r d th e m . A n d
t h a t m a y b e m i g h t h a v e h a d n o th in g to d o w i th tr y in g t o f i n d fa u lt w i t h
y o u . A f te r a ll s h e h a d j u s t p r a is e d y o u r p e r fo r m a n c e . S o w h a t d o y o u
s a y t o t h a t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W h a t I’ m s a y i n g t o th a t i s …

( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t y o u r o p i n i o n m i g h t n o t b e s u p p o r te d b y th e

f a c ts . S h e h a d j u s t p r a is e d y o u i n a m e e ti n g a n d i t a p p e a r s th a t s h e
10

w a s e v e n p r e p a r e d t o c o n s id e r y o u f o r t h e p o s i ti o n o f C E O o n a
p e r m a n e n t b a s is . S o w h y w o u l d s h e b e w a n ti n g t o fi n d r e a s o n t o g e t r i d
o f y o u s u d d e n l y o n l y a w e e k a f te r s h e h a d p r a is e d y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir, I’ m s a y in g c a n a s k y o u t o

hold on that thought.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u w il l a n s w e r m e l a t e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t , o k a y. L e t ’s c o n ti n u e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : L e t ’s p r o c e e d . Ms M p s h e , t e l l u s a b o u t th e
20

e v e n t s o f l a te r t h a t v e r y s a m e d a y o f th is m e e ti n g .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : L a t e r t h a t v e r y s a m e d a y a f te r I l e ft
t h e m e e t i n g , I h a d a c t u a l ly h a d a m e e ti n g t h a t I h a d to r e s c h e d u l e f o r
la t e r th a t I w a s g o i n g to a t te n d . T h e n I h a d r e s c h e d u l e d s o t h a t I c a n
m e e t w i th t h e C h a ir. S o I th e n l e ft t o g o t o t h a t m e e t in g th a t I h a d a n d
a ft e r t h a t m e e ti n g , o n my w a y h o m e I r e c e i v e d a c a ll f r o m t h e C h a ir, M s

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Myeni.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S a y in g th a t t h e r e is a B o a r d

m e e ti n g l a t e r t h a t e v e n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L a te r t h a t e v e n i n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S a m e d a y t h a t w h e r e y o u h a d t h i s m e e ti n g w i th t h e ,

t h is u n i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a t t h a t s t a g e , y o u h a d n o t b e e n in f o r m e d a b o u t
a n y m e e t in g o f t h e B o a r d t h a t w o u ld t a k e p la c e l a t e r i n th e d a y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : As w h e n I l e ft t h e o ffic e I h a d n o t
b e e n i n fo r m e d , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n o t b e e n in f o r m e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o y o u g e t a c a l l o n y o u r w a y h o m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n m y w a y h o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y th e r e ’s g o in g to b e a B o a r d m e e t in g l a te r t h a t
day or that evening. That evening?

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : L a t e r t h a t e v e n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d Ms M p s h e , h o w l a t e w a s t h is ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u g o t t h e c a ll ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I t w a s a b o u t fiv e o ’ c l o c k ; a b o u t

a ft e r fi v e w h e n I r e c e iv e d .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e c a ll ; i t w a s a c a l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

To s a y th a t t h e r e ’s g o i n g t o b e a

B o a r d m e e t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t w h a t ti m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S h e s a id h a l f p a s t fi v e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e B o a r d m e e t in g is g o i n g to
b e a t t h e P r o t e a H o t e l i n M i d r a n d . S o I w a s g o in g t o , I w a s g o i n g h o m e .
I w a s g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k b e f o r e s h e a c t u a ll y t o l d m e t h a t i t w a s
M i d r a n d , I j u s t s a id t o th e C h a ir, I’v e g o t a n e n g a g e m e n t . Th e r e i s a
c a l l a g a la d i n n e r fo r t h e T h e m b is a c h i ld w e l f a r e . I s u p p o r t T h e m b is a
c h i l d w e l f a r e . T h e r e is a g a l a e v e n i n g a n d it ’s r ig h t t h e r e a t t h e , a t
S u n n y I n t e r n a t i o n a l r i g h t o u ts id e o f S A A . S o I ’ m j u s t t h i n k in g t h a t
m a y b e I s h o u l d g o , g e t r e a d y a n d c o m e b a c k a n d w il l m a y b e a f te r I’ m
r e a d y. I w a s ju s t t h i n k i n g . S h e s a y s , t h is i s a n i n s tr u c ti o n f o r y o u t o
a tt e n d t h e B o a r d m e e ti n g . I s a i d o k a y C h a ir. S h e s a id , th e B o a r d

20

m e e ti n g is a t t h e Pr o te a H o t e l in M i d r a n d . I t ’s a t h a l f p a s t f iv e a n d I
lo o k e d a t th e ti m e . I s a id , y o h I ’ m i n M i d r a n d a n d t h e tr a ffi c i n M id r a n d
t h e o th e r s i d e w h e r e I w a s t o g e t t o t h e Pr o te a b u t I s a i d n o t h a t ’s fi n e .
I w il l o b li g e . I w il l g o t o t h e m e e t in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a b o u t a w e e k o r t w o e a r l ie r i n y o u r m e e ti n g in

D u r b a n , y o u t a lk e d a b o u t t h e t w o o f y o u tr y in g t o s tr u c tu r e m e e ti n g s ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , h m . Ye s , a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d ? Yo u w e n t t o th e

m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I g o to th e m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t t h e P r o t e a H o te l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e n d a n a p o l o g y t o th e g a l a d i n n e r w h e r e y o u

were going or not?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , n o I w a s g o in g ; n o I d id n ’ t s e n d
10

a n a p o l o g y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s g o i n g to g o t o t h e g a l a d i n n e r
la t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y o u w o u l d a r r i v e la t e r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : E v e n i f i t w a s l a te r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . S o I t h e n g o t o th e m e e ti n g a t
t h e P r o t e a H o t e l . S o a s I t h o u g h t in t o t h e r e c e p ti o n I w a s lo o k i n g .
T h e r e ’s a s m a l l lik e o ffi c e s p a c e t h e r e . S o I w e n t in t h e r e a n d I f o u n d

20

D o c to r T h e m b i a n d M s K w in a n a i n t h a t s m a l l B o a r d r o o m a n d M s M y e n i
w a s n o t t h e r e ; t h e C h a ir w a s n o t a t t h e m e e ti n g . A n d I s u d d e n l y f e l t
some awkwardness about the two of them because Ms Kwinana greeted
and Ms Kwinana said, greeted and then said Doctor Thembi must start
t h e m e e ti n g . A n d D o c t o r T h e m b i s a y s , n o y o u s t a r t th e m e e ti n g .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

S o r r y, w a s i t o n ly t h e t w o o f t h e m ? T h e r e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
w e r e n o o t h e r e x e c u ti v e s t h a t a t t e n d e d t h i s m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e r e w e r e n o o th e r e x e c u tiv e s ;

t h e r e w a s n o C h a i r o f th e B o a r d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o fi n a l ly, M s K w i n a n a t h e n s ta r t e d
t h e m e e t in g a n d s a i d t h e m e e t i n g t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n a s k e d b y th e
C h a ir t o te ll m e t h a t I ’ m b e i n g r e l i e v e d o n m y p o s i t io n a s a c t in g C E O .
A n d t h e n I a s k e d , o k a y w h e n is t h is e ff e c t iv e ? T h e y s a i d e ff e c t iv e t h a t
d a y. I s a i d i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t h a t i n te r ms o f o u r fr a m e w o r k a n d t h a t w e
10

a r e r e g u l a t e d , y o u c a n n o t h a v e a d a y i n a n a ir li n e w h e r e y o u d o n ’ t h a v e
a C E O i n c a s e o f u n fo r e s e e n . Yo u h a v e t o h a v e a C E O ; i t’s a le g a l
r e q u ir e m e n t . S o I s a i d t h e n t o t h e m t h a t j u s t b e a w a r e th a t t h is i s
w h a t ’s r e q u ir e d o th e r w i s e , I th e n a s k e d w h o n o w is g o i n g t o b e n o w th e
a c ti n g C E O a n d I w a s i n fo r m e d . O h , b e f o r e t h a t s h e t h e n s a i d t h a t, n o
t h e B o a r d h a s ta k e n a v i e w t o r o ta t e e x e c u tiv e s s o t h a t o t h e r
e x e c u tiv e s a ls o s h o u l d g e t a n o p p o r tu n it y i n t h e r o l e o f t h e a c ti n g C E O .
I s a id , w e ll t h a t’s f a ir e n o u g h . S o w h o is t h e n e x t p e r s o n w h o ’s g o i n g t o
b e t h e a c ti n g C E O . A n d th e n I w a s i n fo r m e d t h a t is M r M u s a Z w a n e a n d
t h e n I s a i d o k a y a n d I s a i d i s t h e r e a n y t h i n g e ls e . T h e r e w a s n o t h i n g

20

e ls e a n d I l e ft .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d b y th e t i m e y o u l e ft , th e C h a i r p e r s o n h a d n o t

a r r iv e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d n o t a r r iv e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s s o o n a s I l e f t , I g o t in t o th e c a r I

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t h e n c a l le d C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d I s a i d , C h a ir I h a v e j u s t h a d a
m e e ti n g w i t h D o c t o r Th e m b i a n d M s K w i n a n a . T h e y h a v e c o m m u n ic a t e d
t h e m e s s a g e t h a t y o u s a i d I m u s t b e r e li e v e d o f t h e p o s it i o n o f a c ti n g
C E O a n d I j u s t w a n t t o s a y t h a n k y o u . S h e s a y s , y e s Th u li b u t – I s a i d ,
n o y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t o e x p la in y o u r s e l f to m e . Yo u d i d n ’ t e x p la i n y o u r s e lf
w h e n y o u i n s tr u c t e d m e t o b e a c t in g C E O . I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h a t i t ’s
n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u t o e x p l a i n y o u r s e lf . A ll I ’ m s a y i n g is t h a n k y o u f o r t h e
10

o p p o r t u n i ty a n d f o r th e e x p e r ie n c e . I t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I’ ll a l w a y s c a r r y
with me and I put the phone down.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . S o i n y o u r e x p e r ie n c e o r a c c o r d in g to
y o u r k n o w l e d g e fr o m t h a t ti m e w h e n M r M u s a Z w a n e s t a r t e d a c ti n g o n
the 13th of November 2015 up to the time when the new CEO was
a p p o i n t e d i n 2 0 1 7 i f I ’ m n o t m is t a k e n , y e s , w e r e th e r e o th e r e x e c u t iv e
t h a t w e r e g iv e n a c h a n c e t o a c t a s a n a c ti n g C E O a s y o u w e r e to ld t h a t
t h a t w a s t h e p o l ic y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r o t a t i o n ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , th e r o ta t io n s y s t e m

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a i r … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l, l e t ’s s t a r t f ir s t . S o d i d y o u c e a s e t o b e a c t in g

C E O i m m e d i a t e l y a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i t io n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e , t h e n e w a c ti n g C E O w a s

a p p o i n t e d w it h i m m e d ia t e e ff e c t a f t e r y o u c e a s e d o r d id h e g e t

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a p p o i n t e d w i th e ff e c t fr o m t h e f o l l o w i n g d a y o r is t h a t s o m e th i n g y o u
n e v e r g o t t o u n d e r s t a n d ; to k n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : F r o m w h a t I h a d s e e n w a s t h a t h e
w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d a n n o u n c e d I t h i n k th e f o l lo w in g Tu e s d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th a t th e fo ll o w i n g d a y o r a f e w d a y s a f te r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , t h a t w a s a Fr id a y. T h e n w e h a d
the weekend
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e n i t w a s M o n d a y a n d t h e , a s
10

f a r a s I r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I s ta n d to b e c o r r e c te d .
CHAIRPERSON: But that was the announcement?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e th e r h e t e r m s o f th e l e t te r o f a p p o i n t m e n t ,

w h e t h e r i t b e to e ff e c t i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r y o u c e a s e d to b e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , I w a s n o t a w a r e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n ’ t k n o w t h a t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a n k y o u . M y q u e s t i o n w a s w h e th e r a r e

y o u , d o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e o f a n y o th e r e x e c u ti v e s th a t a c t e d
e x t e n s iv e ly w it h M u s a Z w a n e d u r in g t h e p e r i o d o f 2 0 1 5 N o v e m b e r a n d

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2017 when the new CEO was appointed?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir, t h e r e w a s n o r o ta t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r Z w a n e a c t e d fr o m t h e t i m e t h a t h e w a s a p p o i n t e d
up to when?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Up to the 30th of October 2017

w h e n th e n e w C E O a t S A A s t a r t e d o n t h e 1 s t o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: And after you ceased to be acting CEO, did you then
r e v e r t y o u r p o s i ti o n , y o u r p e r m a n e n t p o s it i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir. I r e v e r t e d to
10

m y p e r m a n e n t p o s i t io n a n d th e n I r e p o r te d i n t o M r M u s a Z w a n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o f o r t h e r e s t o f t h e p e r i o d o f h i s a c t i n g y o u

were part of SAA?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P a r t o f h is a c ti n g , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , fo r p a r t o f h i s a c t in g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. C o n t in u e M s B u t h e l e z i .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . A n d th e n t h e n e x t t o p ic t h a t y o u
d e a l w i t h i s n o w y o u w e r e n o w b a c k a t y o u r p o s i ti o n a s g e n e r a l
m a n a g e r H R . T h e a p p o in t m e n t o f M s P h u m e z a H a n s i; w h a t w a s y o u r
20

in v o lv e m e n t in t h i s p r o c e s s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

My involvement was I’m now back

in m y p o s i ti o n o f g e n e r a l m a n a g e r h u m a n r e s o u r c e s a n d p o s i ti o n o f
c h i e f f in a n c ia l o ffi c e r h a d b e e n a d v e r t is e d . A n d a t th e t i m e a s M s
H a n s i , i t w a s a ls o s e c o n d e d a s i n te r i m C F O a n d s h e w a s s e c o n d e d
fr o m S iz w e N ts a lu b a G o b o d o a n d s h e w a s w o r k i n g t h e r e a s a n a u d i t o r.

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A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o w h e n w e m e t w it h S t a n t o n

C h a s e w h ic h w a s t h e e x e c u ti v e s e a r c h fir m t h a t w a s a s s i g n e d t o r e c r u i t
t h e C F O f o r S A A , w e h a d a m e e ti n g w h e r e w e w e r e s h o r t li s ti n g t h e
c a n d i d a t e w h o m e t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts i n t h a t o r d e r o f t h e h i g h e s t
m e e ti n g o f t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts to th e m i n i m u m r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e
p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is i s w h e n y o u w e r e n o l o n g e r a c ti n g C E O ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o M r M u s a Z w a n e w a s w i t h m e a s
a C E O a n d th e n t h e r e w a s S t a n to n C h a s e a n d th e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s i n
t h e r e f o r t h e s h o r tl is ti n g . A n d M s H a n s i ’s C V w a s g i v e n t o S t a n to n
C h a s e a n d w e l o o k a t i t, w e c o n s i d e r e d C V. T h e n Ms H a n s i d i d n ’ t m a k e
t h e s h o r tl is t a n d b e c a u s e s h e d i d n ’ t m e e t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON: What were the requirem ents that she did not meet if
you are able to remember?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e r e r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t s h e

n e e d e d to m e e t w a s t o h a v e e x t e n s iv e e x p e r i e n c e b e t w e e n f iv e a n d
20

e i g h t y e a r s a s c h ie f fi n a n c i a l o ffi c e r o f a b i g o r g a n iz a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P r e f e r a b ly a n a i r l in e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d M s H a n s i a c c o r d in g t o h e r C V,
s h e i s a C A b u t s h e h a s n e v e r h a d a r o l e i n fi n a n c e n o t e v e n a fi n a n c i a l

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m a n a g e r r o l e ; fi n a n c e m a n a g e r r o l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o s h e d i d n ’ t h a v e th a t e x p e r ie n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o s h e w a s n o t s h o r tl is t e d o n t h a t
b a s is . A t t h e e n d o f t h e s h o r t lis t in g w h e n w e w e r e f in a liz i n g t h e n a m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s M r Z w a n e p a r t o f t h e d e c i s i o n n o t to s h o r tl is t M s
H a n s i o r d id h e n o t t a k e p a r t a t t h a t l e v e l ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , h e w a s b u t h e d i d n ’ t t a k e p a r t .
10

H e d i d n ’ t s a y a n y th i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h e d i d n ’ t o b je c t to t h e , t o h e r n o t b e e n

s h o r tl is t e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A t th e e n d o f th e m e e t i n g w h e n w e
h a d a lr e a d y h a d t h e l is t o f t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e s h o r t li s t e d , h e th e n
s a i d , M r Z w a n e s a y s , t h e C h a i r h a s in s t r u c t e d t h a t M s H a n s i m u s t b e
s h o r tl is t e d . S o t h e y l o o k e d a t u s , S t a n t o n C h a s e a n d l o o k e d a t u s . I
s a i d , w e ll I s a id t h e C E O s a i d s h e m u s t b e s h o r t li s t e d b e c a u s e t h e
20

C h a ir h a s i n s tr u c t e d . S o t h e n th e y p u t h e r C V w a s t h e l is t o f t h e p e o p l e
t h a t w e r e s h o r tl is t e d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

S o is t h a t h o w s h e e n d e d u p b e i n g

s h o r tl is t e d f o r t h is p o s i ti o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h a t ’s h o w s h e e n d e d u p b e in g

s h o r tl is t e d .

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A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , a n d fr o m t h e r e … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m a n y o t h e r s w e r e i n th e s h o r tl is t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t h i n k t h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n t h r e e
o r fo u r o th e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ok, hm.

A n d a t th a t t i m e , s h e w a s a lr e a d y a c t in g

CFO?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a , s h e w a s in t e r i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, interim CFO.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S h e w a s s e c o n d e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: She was seconded.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e i n t e r i m C F O ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Bu t the secondment she was

s in g le d o u t b y M s K w i n a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : F r o m S N G .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To c o m e i n to S A A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e w a s n o p r o c e s s t o s a y, l o o k
we are looking for somebody to become an interim.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h o e l s e c a n w e l o o k a t .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

So it was just single out by Ms

K w in a n a t o s a y, s h e w i ll c o m e , s h e w il l b e s e c o n d e d a s a n i n te r i m C F O .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , i n f a c t y o u d o s a y o n t o p o f p a g e 3 2

t h a t s h e w a s ir r e g u la r ly a p p o i n t e d . W h a t p r o c e s s w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e
f o ll o w e d f o r h e r t o b e s e c o n d e d t o t h is p o s i t io n o r w h y d o y o u s a y i t
w a s ir r e g u l a r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s s a y in g i t w a s i r r e g u l a r i n th a t
10

it w a s a n a u d i to r b e i n g p u t i n a n o p e r a ti o n a l fi n a n c i a l o ffic e r. N o r m a l ly
a u d it o r s th e y a u d i t t h e o p e r a ti o n s in c l u d i n g C F O a n d h o w th e y d o t h e ir
work.
CHAIRPERSON: They do oversight kind of work.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n o v e r s i g h t , y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o f o r m e fr o m t h a t p o i n t o f v i e w, I
f e l t th a t i t w a s a c o n fl ic t o f i n te r e s t a n d I f e l t th a t i t w a s a ls o i r r e g u l a r.
A n d o n e o f t h e m a i n r e a s o n s w h y it w a s ir r e g u la r i t w a s n o t s a y i n g t h a t
lo o k w e a r e l o o k i n g fo r i n t e r i m C F O . W a s t h e p r o c e s s th a t w e c a n

20

e n g a g e t o f in d a n in t e r i m C F O ? A n d i t’s b e e n d o n e b e fo r e w e r e w e ’r e
lo o k in g f o r a n i n t e r i m p e r s o n a n d th e n w e a g r e e o n t h e s p e c o f w h a t is
it th a t w e ’ r e l o o k in g f o r a n d o t h e r p e o p l e c a n b e r e c o m m e n d e d a n d
t h e n m a y b e tw o o r t h r e e p e o p l e a r e s h o r tl is te d , p e o p le a r e i n t e r v ie w e d
a n d t h e n w e a p p o i n t t h e p e r s o n . S o i t w a s a ls o ir r e g u l a r in t h a t th e r e
w a s n o p r o c e s s fo ll o w e d . I t w a s ju s t h a n d p ic k e d .

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A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

A n d th e n w e n o w k n o w th a t s h e w a s

e v e n t u a l ly a p p o i n t e d a s a C F O in 2 0 1 6 . W e r e y o u i n v o lv e d i n a n y o f th e
p r o c e s s e s t h a t f o ll o w e d t h is s h o r t lis t in g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

By t h e ti m e s h e w a s a p p o i n te d I

w a s a lr e a d y o n p r e c a u ti o n a r y s u s p e n s io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . I a s s u m e t h e r e w a s a n i n te r v i e w o f t h e

s h o r tl is t e d c a n d id a t e s f o r th is p o s i ti o n o f C F O . D o y o u ta k e p a r t o f t h e
10

in t e r v ie w s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o . S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t th e p r o c e s s
t h a t fo ll o w e d , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . H a p p e n e d w h e n y o u w e r e n o l o n g e r th e r e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s n o t p a r ty t o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u , c h a ir. W e t h e n m o v e to y o u r

s u s p e n s i o n . I k n o w t h a t th is is m a y b e a n e m o ti o n a l is s u e f o r y o u M s
M p s h e b u t I w o u ld l ik e u s t o t a k e u s t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s a s t o h o w it
h a p p e n e d s t a r ti n g f r o m t h e e v e n t s o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 u p t o t h e t i m e w h e n
20

y o u w e r e s u s p e n d e d in M a y 2 0 1 6 .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir, I w e n t o n le a v e . I w a s

r e l i e v e d t h a t w a s m i d - N o v e m b e r o f m y p o s i ti o n a n d I w e n t b a c k to t h e
h u m a n r e s o u r c e s p o s i ti o n . A n d in t h e m i d d l e o f D e c e m b e r I t h e n w e n t
o n le a v e a n d I to o k a b o u t a l m o s t a m o n t h ’s l e a v e . I ju s t n e e d ti m e o u t
a ft e r t h a t. S o I r e tu r n e d to w o r k o n t h e 1 9 t h o f J a n u a r y. W h e n I r e tu r n e d

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t o w o r k o n t h e 1 9 t h o f J a n u a r y, fi r s t I w a s i n f o r m e d t h a t th e r e w a s a
p r e s e n t a ti o n o f t h e S t a t e s e c u r i ty a g e n c y f o r t h e r e s t o f t h e e m p l o y e e s
w h o w e r e n o t a b le t o a t t e n d t h e p r e v i o u s p r e s e n t a ti o n s . I a t te n d e d t h e
p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d t h e n a ft e r t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n i n th e a f te r n o o n I g e t
c a l l e d b y M s R u th K i b u k a , w h o i s t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y. A n d s h e c a l ls
m e t o h e r o ffi c e , s h e h a s g o t t w o b r o w n e n v e l o p e s a n d th a t s h e s a y s I
w a s to ld t o g iv e y o u th e s e e n v e l o p e s . S o I s a i d w h a t is i t , s h e s a y s w e l l
I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t ’s in t h e e n v e l o p e s . S o I o p e n e d th e fir s t e n v e l o p e
a n d I r e a d t h e e n v e l o p e a n d I r e a d it a l o u d t o h e r a n d a s I w a s r e a d in g ,
10

s h e s a i d , o h s h e is s o s o r r y, s h e a p o l o g i z e s . S h e w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h e
c o n te n t o f t h e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e n v e lo p e ; t h e a c t u a l le t t e r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e a c t u a l l e tt e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d th e l e t te r w a s s t a t i n g t h a t

t h e r e ’s a l l e g a ti o n s o f m is c o n d u c t a g a i n s t m e w h i c h w e r e a b o u t e ig h t o r
1 0 . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. I t w a s a l o n g lis t o f a ll e g a t i o n s o f m is c o n d u c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e l e t te r w a s s ig n e d b y w h o ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e l e tt e r w a s s i g n e d b y Mr M u s a
20

Zwane.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I c a n a s k M s K i b u k a t h a t I w a s
a w a r e th a t M r M u s a Zw a n e w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d h e le f t o n a
S a t u r d a y. S o w h e r e d i d h e g e t t h e l e t te r ? W h o h a n d e d h e r t h e le t t e r ?
S h e t h e n s a i d th e l e t te r w a s h a n d e d t o h e r o n t h a t d a y M o n d a y m o r n i n g

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b y M r L e s t e r P e t e r. Mr L e s te r P e te r a t th e ti m e w a s a c o n t r a c t m a n a g e r
in p r o c u r e m e n t a t th e ti m e . S o I th e n s a i d t o M s K i b u k a , s h e w a s v e r y
u n c o m f o r t a b l e . I s a i d n o i t ’s o k a y, y o u a r e o u t o f i t . D o n ’ t w o r r y a b o u t
it . I t o o k b o t h e n v e l o p e s t o h e r, I s a id y o u a r e o u t o f i t. I’ ll h a n d l e th is
m a t t e r. A n d t h e n I w e n t t o my o ffi c e a n d th e n I w r o t e a n e m a i l t o M r
Z w a n e a n d s a id th a t a n d I c o p ie d M s K i b u k a . I s a id I h a v e r e c e iv e d
t h e s e tw o l e t te r s . O h , g o i n g b a c k , s h e a l s o s a id t h a t I w a s g iv e n t h e s e
le t t e r s a n d I w a s t o ld th a t y o u n e e d to g o o n l e a v e . S o I s a id to Ms
K i b u k a , I h a v e ju s t c o m e b a c k fr o m le a v e . S o I’ m n o t g o i n g o n le a v e .
10

I’ m n o t s u r e i f M r Z w a n e is a w a r e t h a t I h a v e ju s t b e e n o n l e a v e . S o I ’ m
n o t g o i n g o n l e a v e a n d I’ ll t a k e l e a v e … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s b e fo r e y o u r e a d th e l e t te r ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , t h a t I m u s t t a k e l e a v e . S o I

r e a d t h e l e t te r. S o a n d t h e n I to o k t h e l e t t e r s , I g o t o m y o ffic e a n d i n
m y o ffi c e I w r o t e a n e m a il t o M r Z w a n e t o s a y I h a v e r e c e i v e d t w o
le t t e r s . Th e y a r e in m y p o s s e s s i o n . I t o o k th e m fr o m M s K i b u k a . I’ m
r a i s i n g , I r a is e d a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s . O n e I ’ m r a i s i n g th e fa c t th a t h e
g a v e t h is l e t t e r o f t h i s n a tu r e to M s K i b u k a w h o i s in t e r m s o f t h e
h i e r a r c h y i n t h e o r g a n iz a ti o n lo w e r i n t h e h ie r a r c h y a n d I f e lt th a t y o u
20

c o u l d h a v e g iv e n t o m y p e e r o r a n y b o d y a t th a t le v e l o f m y s a m e l e v e l
in t h e o r g a n iz a ti o n a l h i e r a r c h y. A n d s e c o n d ly, I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h y i t
s e e m e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a s e n s e o f u r g e n c y a r o u n d i t . W h e n I r e a d th e
a l le g a ti o n s I d i d n ’ t p ic k u p a n y s e n s e o f u r g e n c y b e c a u s e s o m e o f
t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s w e r e m a t te r s th a t h a p p e n e d i n 2 0 1 2 a n d w e w e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: 2012?

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 2 0 1 2 a n d w e w e r e i n 2 0 1 6 J a n u a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I s a i d f o r m e i t d o e s n ’t l o o k l ik e
t h e r e ’s a n y s e n s e o f u r g e n c y o n t h i s m a t t e r. S o t h e l e t te r in d ic a t e d th a t
t h e r e n e e d e d t o b e , I n e e d e d t o r e s p o n d b y t h e Fr id a y. S o I t h e n s a i d
o n t h e e m a il .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w e r e y o u s u p p o s e d to r e s p o n d to ? W a s i t

s a y in g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To t h e s e a ll e g a t i o n s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t o t h e a ll e g a t io n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To t h e a l le g a ti o n s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . S o I s a i d n o w t h a t y o u ’r e n o t
h e r e I n e e d t o m e e t w it h y o u f o r y o u t o g iv e m e c o n t e x t a n d t h e
b a c k g r o u n d a s t o w h e r e d id t h e s e a l l e g a ti o n s c o m e f r o m . S o b e c a u s e I
h a v e n ’t m e t w i t h y o u a n d y o u a r e o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y, th e Fr id a y
d e a d l in e c a n ’ t a p p ly b e c a u s e th e n w e n e e d t o s i t a n d y o u n e e d t o
e x p l a i n t o m e a n d t h e n a f t e r t h a t w e c a n t h e n d e c i d e o n a n e w d e a d li n e
t o th e r e s p o n s e . A n d t h e n I t h e n s e n t t h e e m a i l to h i m a n d h e d i d n ’ t

20

r e s p o n d . A n d in t h e a f te r n o o n w h e n I w e n t h o m e , i n th e a ft e r n o o n j u s t
a s I l e f t t h e o ffi c e I r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m a j o u r n a l is t c a l l e d C r a i g
M c C o o n e y fr o m … ( i n d is ti n c t) . H e i d e n ti f ie d h i ms e lf a s s u c h a n d t h e n h e
s a y s I a m p h o n i n g y o u i n c o n n e c ti o n w i t h y o u r s u s p e n s i o n i f n o t
p e n d i n g s u s p e n s io n . I s a i d to h i m I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t y o u ’r e t a l k i n g
a b o u t. H e s a y s , n o I h e a r i t fr o m a r e li a b l e s o u r c e . I h a v e r e li a b l e

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s o u r c e s w i th i n S A A t h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o b e s u s p e n d e d i f n o t
s u s p e n d e d a lr e a d y t o d a y. I s a i d I’ m s o r r y I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t y o u ’r e
t a lk in g a b o u t a n d p l e a s e d o n ’ t c a ll m e a n d t h e n I p u t t h e p h o n e d o w n .
A n d th e n h e f o l l o w e d u p w i t h a te x t m e s s a g e t o s a y t h a t I r e a l ly li k e t o
s p e a k t o y o u . I c a n s p e a k t o y o u o ff t h e r e c o r d b u t I lik e t o k n o w w h a t ’s
h a p p e n in g . S o I d id n ’ t r e s p o n d t o h is te x t m e s s a g e . I m e a n e n d e d u p
t h e c a l l w i t h h i m , I s a i d p l e a s e d o n ’ t c a l l m e . Th e f o ll o w i n g d a y a t w o r k
I g o t a c a l l fr o m a n o t h e r n u m b e r th a t I d o n ’ t k n o w. S o I d i d n ’ t r e s p o n d
t o t h e n u m b e r a n d t h e n I t h e n g o t a t e x t m e s s a g e fr o m t h is n u m b e r t h a t
10

s a y s t h a t m y n a m e i s C a r o l P a y t o n fr o m t h e B u s i n e s s D a y a n d I’ m
c a l li n g i n c o n n e c t io n w i t h y o u r s u s p e n s i o n . I l ik e to s p e a k t o y o u . I
d i d n ’ t r e s p o n d a n d s h e f o l l o w e d u p w i th a t e x t m e s s a g e t o s a y p l e a s e I
lik e to s p e a k to y o u . I ’ m a w a r e t h a t y o u h a d a c h a l le n g i n g t i m e w i t h t h e
c h a ir, M s M y e n i a n d I l ik e t o k n o w a n d o th e r p e o p l e a r e s a y i n g th a t
y o u , y o u k n o w y o u d id n ’t c o m p l y to w h a t M s M y e n i w a s a s k i n g y o u t o
d o . S o t h is c o u l d b e a n is s u e o f g e t ti n g b a c k a t y o u s o I r e a l ly l ik e t o
s p e a k t o y o u . I c a n e v e n s p e a k t o y o u o ff t h e r e c o r d . I d i d n ’ t r e s p o n d .
A n d th e n I g o t a n o t h e r c a ll , t h e s a m e , t h e f o l l o w i n g d a y. T h a t is t h e
Tu e s d a y n o w, Tu e s d a y t h e 2 0 t h . A n o t h e r c a ll fr o m t h i s , I c a n ’ t

20

r e m e m b e r E li z a b e th s o m e t h i n g t h a t a l s o c a l le d a n d s a m e m a t te r o f my
suspension. So… (intervention).
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye t t o k n o w y o u w e r e n o t s u s p e n d e d a s f a r a s y o u

knew?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , I w a s n o t s u s p e n d e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s g iv e n a l e t t e r w i th a l le g a ti o n s
of misconduct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , to w h i c h y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d b y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W h i c h I w a s s u p p o s e d to r e s p o n d

t o . A n d t h e n l a t e r o n , o n t h a t d a y I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m o n e o f t h e
o ffic i a ls a t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a s k in g m e t o s a y th e y h a v e r e c e i v e d c a ll s
fr o m j o u r n a l is ts a b o u t m y s u s p e n s io n . S o w h a t is g o i n g o n ? S o I s a i d to
h e r l o o k I’ m i n t h e o ff ic e r i g h t n o w, I ’ m n o t s u s p e n d e d . I h a v e a ls o h a d
t h o s e q u e r ie s w h i c h I h a v e n o t r e s p o n d e d to b u t w h a t I c a n te ll y o u is
10

n o w a n o ff ic i a l fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i s t h a t I n o w h a v e th e s e
a l le g a ti o n s o f m is c o n d u c t b u t i t is n o t a s u s p e n s i o n . M u s a is n o t h e r e .
H e ’s o v e r s e a s a n d I h a v e n ’t r e s p o n d e d a n d I h a v e w r i t t e n t o h i m t h a t I
w i ll s t a r t r e s p o n d in g o n c e I h e a r fr o m h i m w h a t is th e b a c k g r o u n d a n d
t h e c o n t e x t to th e s e a ll e g a t i o n s . S o w e l e ft i t a t t h a t a n d t h e n i n t h a t
e v e n i n g I th e n , y o u k n o w I c o p i e d t h o s e t e x t m e s s a g e s i n to a n e m a il
a n d t h e n I s e n t t h e m t o M r Z w a n e o n a n e m a il a n d I s a i d t o M r Z w a n e ,
y e s t e r d a y w h e n I le f t I g o t t h is . I e x p l a i n e d th a t t h is a n d t h e n I p o s te d
t h e t e x t m e s s a g e s o n e m a il t o s a y t h a t I ’ m v e r y s u r p r is e d t h a t I t h o u g h t
t h a t y o u h a d g iv e n t h e l e t te r t o R u t h w h o t h e n i n d ic a te d t o m e t h a t t h e

20

le t t e r w a s g iv e n b y L e s t e r P e t e r. S o a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d , it ’s R u t h
a n d m y s e l f a n d y o u w h o k n o w a b o u t th is m a t te r. S o w h e r e is t h i s
in f o r m a ti o n c o m in g fr o m w h ic h n o w s e e m e d t o b e le a k e d to t h e m e d ia
t h a t I’ m s u s p e n d e d . A n d t h e n h e r e s p o n d e d t o s a y t h a t h e d o e s n ’ t k n o w
a n y th in g a b o u t w h e r e th e m e d ia g e t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n f r o m . S o I j u s t le f t
it a t t h a t. A n d h e d i d c o m e … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON:

A s a m a t t e r o f i n t e r e s t , w h o w a s a c t in g M r Z w a n e ’s

p o s i ti o n w h il e h e w a s o v e r s e a s d u r i n g t h a t ti m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e w a s n o o n e a c ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e r e w a s n o o ffic ia ll y a c t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O k a y. W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d , c h a ir,

w a s Mr Z w a n e d id c o m e b a c k fr o m t h e s e o v e r s e a s tr ip a n d w e w e r e n o t
a b l e t o m e e t. H e k e p t o n tr y i n g t o g e t ti m e i n h is d i a r y a n d w e w e r e n o t
10

a b l e to m e e t a n d I t h i n k w e m a n a g e d f in a lly t o m e e t i n a b o u t e a r ly i n
F e b r u a r y ; f ir s t w e e k o f F e b r u a r y o r s o . A n d w h e n w e f in a l ly m e t , h e
c a m e t o my o ff ic e a n d w e s a t a c r o s s a t a r o u n d t a b l e in th e o ffi c e ; s a t
a c r o s s o n t h e t a b l e . I s a t w i th h i m a n d h e d i d n ’ t e s t a b l is h e y e c o n t a c t .
A n d h e w a l k e d in a s i f , y o u k n o w h e w a s t ir e d a n d s a t d o w n a n d I t h e n
said to him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e lik e d r a g g i n g h i m s e l f ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , y e s . S o I t h e n s a id t o h i m I

r e a l ly w a n te d t o k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d . H e w a s m y b o s s f o r j u s t a b o u t
t w o w e e k s a n d t h e n I w e n t o n le a v e . O n t h e f ir s t d a y I c o m e b a c k fr o m
20

le a v e I g e t a ll t h e s e a l le g a ti o n s o f m is c o n d u c t s ig n e d b y h i m . S o w h e r e
d o t h e y c o m e fr o m . S o h e ’s r e a ll y n e v e r b e e n m y b o s s . H e ’s b e e n m y
c o l l e a g u e a s a m e m b e r o f e x c o . S o I s a i d w e ’v e b e e n c o l le a g u e s .
W e ’v e h a d a g o o d r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h c o ll e a g u e s . I h a v e c o n d u c t e d
m y s e l f i n a w a y t h a t I w a s e x e m p la r y a s a l e a d e r i n th e o r g a n i z a t io n
a n d I’v e n e v e r f o u n d w i th m is c o n d u c t o r a n y th in g i n m y w h o l e c a r e e r.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
A n d n o w i t w h a t I c o n s i d e r t o b e th e p e a k o f my c a r e e r I’ m n o w g iv e n
t h is w h ic h i s t a i n ti n g my r e p u t a ti o n a n d m y r e c o r d . I s a id I d o n ’ t
u n d e r s t a n d i t . P le a s e e x p l a i n t o m e . A n d I s a i d t h e s e t h i n g s c a m e b a c k
a s f a r a s 2 0 1 2 . W h a t h a v e y o u g o t to d o n o w w e a r e o n 2 0 1 6 ? W h a t is
g o i n g o n ? H e th e n s a i d t o m e . H i s h e a d w a s d o w n . H e n e v e r r e a ll y
e s t a b li s h e d e y e c o n t a c t w i t h m e . H e s a i d it is n o t m e , i t ’s th e b o a r d . I
s a i d w h o i n th e b o a r d . H e s a i d i t ’s t h e c h a ir. I s a id o h o k a y. S o y o u a r e
c a r r y i n g o u t a n in s tr u c ti o n fr o m t h e c h a ir a n d h e d id n ’t r e s p o n d . A n d I
s a i d o k a y t h a t ’s fi n e l e t’s j u s t a g r e e o n t h e r e a s o n a b l e d a t e fo r m e t o
10

r e s p o n d b a c k b e c a u s e to r e s p o n d I w i ll r e s p o n d b a c k t o y o u o n th e s e
a l le g a ti o n s . A n d

then

we

ju s t c h a n g e d

the

date

on

th o s e

tw o

d o c u m e n ts , s i g n e d , h e t o o k t h e o n e d o c u m e n t , I to o k t h e o n e d o c u m e n t
a n d h e le f t . A n d f o l lo w in g o n t h a t I c o n t a c t e d a n a t t o r n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n t e r m s o f t h e a l le g a t io n s th a t w e r e i n th e l e t te r,

t h o s e t h i n g s t h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n h e w a s n o t y o u r b o s s s o to s p e a k ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A l l o f t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll o f t h e m ? S o f o r a ll i n te n ts a n d p u r p o s e s h e k n e w
n o t h i n g a b o u t t h e m o r h e m a y h a v e k n o w n s o m e t h i n g b u t h e w a s n o t.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P a r ty t o .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s n o t p a r t y to t h e m a n d h e w a s n o t in c h a r g e o f
you?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , h e w a s n ’ t, c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

O n e w a s t h a t r e fu s a l t o d is c i p l in e

M r W o l f M e y e r. A n o t h e r o n e w a s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s th e o n e w h e r e y o u h a v e s a id y o u w e r e

p r e p a r e d t o d is c ip li n e h i m b u t t h e b o a r d , t h e c h a ir m u s t g iv e y o u t h e
le g a l o p in i o n a n d t h e in v e s ti g a t io n r e p o r t w h ic h y o u n e v e r g o t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . W h ic h I d i d n ’ t g e t.
CHAIRPERSON: That was one of them?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t w a s o n e o f t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n o th e r o n e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n o t h e r o n e w a s p u t t in g S A A a n d
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y i n to d i s r e p u te b y r e fu s in g to c o o p e r a t e w i th S t a te
10

s e c u r i ty a g e n c y. T h a t le t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I h a v e r e fe r r e d t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e o t h e r o n e w a s w i t h o u t d u e
c o u r s e a n d j u s ti c e a d j u s t in g th e s a l a r y o f D o c to r D a h w a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n o t h e r o n e w a s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y, w h e n d i d t h a t a ll e g e d l y h a p p e n e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P a r d o n ?

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h e a d ju s t i n g o f th e s a l a r y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r D a h w a w h e n h e , i t w a s a y e a r o r
t w o b e f o r e th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is a l s o th i n g s t h a t h a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a p p e n e d m u c h e a r li e r.

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : B e f o r e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o , th a t ’s fi n e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P r o c e e d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And then one was signing the

A ir b u s c o n tr a c t w i t h o u t d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r it y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . W h a t w a s , w h e n h a d th e m o s t r e c e n t o f th e m

happened?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

The most recent of them was the

m a t t e r o f M r W o l f M e y e r, o f t h e d i s c i p li n e o f M r M e y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s a b o u t h o w l o n g p r e v i o u s ly ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t h in k t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i t h Mr
M e y e r w a s s o m e ti m e i n O c to b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh that same year?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e p r e v i o u s y e a r 2 0 1 5 w h e n I w a s
a c ti n g C E O .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, the previous year ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . T h is w a s n o w J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o t h o s e w e r e t h e t h in g s t h a t th e

m o s t r e c e n t o n e w a s M r M e y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : D is c i p l in e o f M r M e y e r.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , s o t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f o th e r s ,
a p p o i n t m e n t o f o t h e r p e o p l e i n o t h e r p la c e s a n d a n d a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o I t h e n s a i d i t ’s o k a y. I w i ll

r e s p o n d . A n d t h e n I c o n s u lt e d a l a w y e r a n d th e r e a s o n w h y I c o n s u l t e d
a la w y e r, b e c a u s e I k n e w t h a t t h is p r o c e s s o n c e i t s t a r te d a n d I h a v e
s e e n i t a n d I ’v e e x p e r ie n c e d i t , h o w i f it c a n b e b u l l d o z e d a n d y o u c a n
ju s t b e d i s m is s e d w i t h o u t d u e p r o c e s s . S o I f e l t t h a t I w a s g o in g t o g e t
10

a n a t t o r n e y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I h a v e s o m e b o d y w h o c a n d e fe n d m e a n d
p r o t e c t m e a l o n g th e p r o c e s s . Th a t ’s w h a t I e n g a g e d my a t to r n e y a n d
t h e n w e r e s p o n d e d t o th e a ll e g a t io n s o f m is c o n d u c t. M y a t to r n e y w a s
c o n ta c t e d b y S A A t o s a y, y o u k n o w t h e n i t w a s r e s p o n s e f r o m a t t o r n e y
t o a t to r n e y a n d t h e n i t w a s q u ie t .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Te ll m e t h is p e r io d w e r e y o u s ti ll w o r k i n g o r
d i d th e y in s is t t h a t y o u g o o n l e a v e o r y o u w e r e s t il l w o r k i n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , n o , n o I w a s s t il l w o r k i n g .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d I t h e n s a i d th a t I’ m n o t t a k in g

20

le a v e , I’ m n o t d u r e s s t h e c o m p a n y. Th e s e m a t t e r s a r e m a tt e r s t h a t
h a p p e n e d l o n g ti m e a g o a n d I c o n t i n u e d t o w o r k a n d I w a s c o n ti n u i n g t o
work.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d y o u a r e s a y in g y o u r a t t o r n e y r e s p o n d e d

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
to SAA attorneys. Who were SAA attorneys?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S A A a t t o r n e y s w e r e E N S .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o m y a t to r n e y r e s p o n d e d t o E N S .
T h e y g o t th e ir r e s p o n s e a n d i t w a s v e r y q u i e t . I t w a s F e b r u a r y. I th i n k
s o m e t i m e m i d - M a r c h m y a t t o r n e y f o l lo w e d u p w i th a n a t t o r n e y fr o m t h e
S A A a t t o r n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t y o u h a d r e s p o n d e d t o th e a ll e g a t i o n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B y th e n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e h a v e n ’ t g o t a n y r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e n m y a t to r n e y f o l lo w e d u p
w i t h … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

And

you

responded

s u b s ta n ti v e ly

to

a ll

th e s e

a l le g a ti o n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W i t h a b u n d l e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W i t h a b u n d l e , c h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o th e n m y a t to r n e y fo ll o w e d u p i n
M a r c h w i t h E N S t o s a y w h a t ’s h a p p e n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s th e w a y f o r w a r d ? W h a t ’s h a p p e n i n g ?

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , w e h a v e r e s p o n d e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e n E N S r e s p o n d e d to t h e fa c t
t h a t n o w e h a v e n ’ t h e a r d ; w e h a v e n o b r i e f . W e d i d f o r th e r e s p o n s e b u t
w e d o n ’ t h a v e a b r ie f . S o t h a t’s M a r c h . S o I c o n t i n u e t o w o r k u n ti l
s o m e t i m e in m id - A p r i l . I n m i d - A p r il my a t t o r n e y c a lls to s a y t h a t h e h a s
g o t a c a l l f r o m a n o th e r S A A a t t o r n e y w h o is n o w h a n d li n g m y m a t t e r
t h a t t h e y a r e n o w t a k in g t h e m a t te r fo r w a r d . A n d h e t h e n c a ll e d E N S
a n d a s k e d t h e m th a t h o w c o m e t h e y h a v e n ’t i n f o r m e d h i m th a t S A A h a s
10

n o w tr a n s f e r r e d t h e m a t t e r to t h is n e w a tt o r n e y, B M K . S o t h e S A A
a tt o r n e y, E N S s a y s n o w e s t il l g o t t h e f il e . W e h a v e n o t b e e n i n f o r m e d
t h a t w e a r e n o t h a n d li n g t h e c a s e . S o w e h a v e n o t e v e n d o n e t h e
h a n d o v e r t o B M K . S o a n d t h e n , th e n E N S w a s w a i ti n g f o r B M K t o
c o n ta c t t h e m a n d it n e v e r h a p p e n e d . T h e r e w a s n o fi le tr a n s f e r a n d n o w
w e t h e n h a v e ; m y l a w y e r h a s t o n o w d e a l w i t h th is B M K n e w a tt o r n e y s .
And

th e n

the

attorneys

fo r w a r d

th e m

th e

responses

that

t h e ir

a l le g a ti o n s o f m i s c o n d u c t . H e r e o u r r e s p o n s e s , w e h a v e n ’ t h e a r d f r o m
t h e c o m p a n y b u t b e fo r e th a t w h e n m y a t to r n e y c o n s u l ts E N S t o s a y
t h e r e ’s a n e w a t t o r n e y t a k i n g t h a t l ik e t h i s , E N S w a s s u r p r i s e d a n d s a id
20

b e t w e e n a t t o r n e y a n d a t to r n e y s a i d I’ m s u r p r i s e d b e c a u s e w e e x p l a i n e d
t h a t b a s e d o n t h e r e s p o n s e s t h e r e w a s n o b a s is f o r a d is c ip li n a r y
m a t t e r. S o m a y b e th e y d id n ’t li k e o u r r e s p o n s e . N o w m y a t t o r n e y
r e l a t e s to m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l ls th a t , t e lls y o u th a t , ja .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , y e s . S o t h e n , t h e n i t’s n o w

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B M K . T h e n my a tt o r n e y s a y s l e t m e p u t y o u u p to s p e e d . H e r e a r e t h e
a l le g a ti o n s , h e r e ’s o u r r e s p o n s e , g iv e it t o t h e m a n d th is is th e m id d l e
o f A p r il s o m e ti m e . O n th e 5 t h o f M a y I w a s t h e o ffic e . W e w e r e g e t ti n g
t o t h e e n d o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r d o i n g p e r f o r m a n c e r e v ie w s . S o I w a s
b u s y w i t h p e r f o r m a n c e r e v i e w s w i t h m y d ir e c t r e p o r ts . I g o t a c a ll fr o m
t h e PA o f t h e C E O M r M u s a Z w a n e t o s a y h e w a n ts a o n e - o n - o n e
m e e ti n g w i th m e i n t h e a f t e r n o o n . S o I s a i d , o k a y b u t y o u m u s t t e ll m e
w h a t ti m e b e c a u s e I h a v e p e o p le li n e d u p to d o p e r f o r m a n c e r e v i e w s
a n d I n e e d t o k n o w s o t h a t I c a n m a n a g e my d a ir y a c c o r d in g ly. Th e n
10

s h e s a i d 4 o ’c lo c k . I s a id n o t h a t ’s f in e a n d c a n y o u p le a s e fo r w a r d t h e
a g e n d a s o t h a t I p r e p a r e f o r t h e m e e ti n g . A n d t h e n s h e c a m e b a c k a n d
s a i d n o , h e s a y s t h e r e is n o a g e n d a . O k a y. I c o m p l e te d w h a t I n e e d e d
t o d o a n d t h e n c a r r i e d o n w i t h m y e m a ils ; c a tc h in g u p w i t h e m a ils . A t
a b o u t 1 6 h 2 0 , M r Z w a n e c o m e s t o m y o ffi c e a n d h e w a l k s in w i th M s
K w in a n a a n d th e n I w e lc o m e t h e m t o t h e t a b l e i n m y o ffic e a n d t h e n w e
s i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e m e e t in g i s i n y o u r o ffic e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t ’s i n m y o ff ic e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s s o I th o u g h t i t w a s a o n e - o n -

o n e w i th M r Z w a n e b u t h e c o m e s w i t h M s K w in a n a . S o w e s a t t h e r e a n d
t h e y, t h e n M u s a s a y s I h e a r y o u w a n te d a n a g e n d a . I s a i d y o u k n o w
y e s , y o u k n o w I a m a l w a y s s o fo r m a l a n d I d o n ’t li k e a tt e n d i n g m e e t in g s
w h e n I’ m n o t p r e p a r e d . H e s a y s n o t h e r e ’s n o th i n g f o r y o u t o p r e p a r e .
W e ’v e g o t t h is l e t te r f o r y o u . T h e r e ’s tw o le t t e r s f o r y o u . S o t h e l e t t e r

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o n th e d e s k ; t h e y p u t th e l e t te r o n th e d e s k . S o I d o n ’ t t o u c h t h e le t t e r.
I l o o k a t t h e l e tt e r. I r e a d t h e l e t t e r a n d I s a i d t o th e m I a m n o t
a c k n o w l e d g in g r e c e ip t o f t h is l e tt e r a n d m y m a t t e r i s h a n d l e d b y m y
a tt o r n e y. S o c a n y o u … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e le t t e r s a y in g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e l e tt e r w a s m y s u s p e n s i o n w i t h
i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S u s p e n s io n , o k a y. H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I s a i d t o t h e m , y o u n e e d t o r e f e r
10

t h is t o m y a tt o r n e y b e c a u s e m y m a t t e r is h a n d e d o v e r t o m y a tt o r n e y.
I’ m n o t d e a li n g w i t h t h is d ir e c t ly w it h t h e c o m p a n y. S o M s K w i n a n a
s a i d , d o y o u a l w a y s h a v e t o b e s o d i ffi c u l t . Is i t j u s t y o u r o w n t h in g o f
b e i n g d i ffic u lt o r is i t la w ? I s a i d , M s K w i n a n a I’ m n o t s u r e h o w m u c h
e x p e r i e n c e y o u ’ v e h a d w i th a t t o r n e y s . O n c e y o u h a v e h a n d e d y o u r
m a t t e r t o y o u r a t t o r n e y y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e h a v i n g d e a l in g s w i t h
o th e r p e o p le o n t h e s a m e m a t t e r. I t i s o n t h e p r i n c ip l e . I t ’s n o t b e i n g
d i ff ic u l t . S o o n th a t n o t e I g a v e th e m t h e l e t t e r b a c k a n d I d i d n ’ t s i g n
t h e l e t t e r s o t h e y l e f t t h e o ffi c e . A n d i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r t h e y l e ft t h e
o ffic e , I p a c k e d my b a g a n d I l e f t a n d I c a ll e d m y l a w y e r w h e n I w a s i n

20

t h e c a r a n d h e s a id , y e s t o m a k e s u r e y o u a r e b e in g s u s p e n d e d . W e ’l l
t a lk a b o u t i t t o m o r r o w b u t y o u d id r i g h t b y le a v i n g . S o I l e f t . T h a t w a s
t h e 5 t h a n d t h e n w e h a d a n a p p o i n t m e n t w i t h m y a tt o r n e y o n t h e 6 t h . O n
t h e m o r n in g o f t h e 6 t h , I r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m a c o l l e a g u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is i s i n M a y n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h is i s i n M a y. J a . T h e p r e v i o u s

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d a y I w a s s u s p e n d e d a n d o n t h e m o r n i n g o f t h e 6 t h I r e c e iv e d a c a l l
fr o m a f o r m e r c o ll e a g u e th a t a s k e d m e w h e r e a m I . I s a id I ’ m a t h o m e
and he says, oh thank God you are at hom e because I have been given
a n i n s tr u c ti o n to m a r c h y o u o u t o f t h e p r e m is e s . S o i f y o u a r e s ta y
h o m e d o n ’ t c o m e . I s a i d n o I h a v e n o in t e n ti o n o f c o m in g . I’ m a c t u a l ly
going to see my attorney later this morning.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

S o r r y, w h o w a s t h is c o l le a g u e a n d w h a t

p o s i ti o n w a s t h i s c o ll e a g u e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e w a s in s e c u r i ty.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h o k a y
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : H e w a s i n s e c u r i ty a t S A A ; i n t e r n a l
s e c u r i ty a t S A A . T h a t d a y it w a s a ls o , t h e y w e r e b u s y w i t h s e c u r i ty
b e c a u s e t h a t’s t h e d a t e t h a t t h e f o r m e r p r e s id e n t v is i te d S A A . T h e
f o r m e r p r e s i d e n t v is it e d S A A o n th e 6 t h o f M a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Former president, Mr Zuma?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r Z u m a , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Vi s i t e d S A A o n t h e 6 t h o f M a y. A n d
h e s a y s w e a r e b u s y n o w p r e p a r i n g a n d s w e e p in g b e c a u s e y o u k n o w

20

t h e p r e s i d e n t is c o m in g t o S A A . S o t h a t r e a ll y w a s t h e s u s p e n s i o n o n
t h e 5 t h o f M a y a n d c o n s u l te d w it h m y a t t o r n e y a n d w i th in h a d t o w a i t f o r
t h e c h a r g e s b e c a u s e w e h a d r e s p o n d e d t o t h e a ll e g a t io n s . A n d I d i d n ’ t
r e c e i v e ; w e d id n ’t r e c e iv e a n y c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m S A A o r S A A
a tt o r n e y s u n t il a b o u t t h e 6 t h o f A u g u s t .
CHAIRPERSON: That was a long time.

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s a l o n g ti m e , c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Where I was asked to come and

c o l l e c t t h e c h a r g e s a n d t h e c h a r g e s w e r e t h e 6 t h o f M a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e w e t a lk a b o u t t h e c h a r g e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o r r y 6 t h o f A u g u s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e w e t a l k a b o u t th e c h a r g e s , M s B u t h e l e z i a r e

h e r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s o r is h e r r e s p o n s e to t h e a l l e g a ti o n s i n th e b u n d l e ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , th e y a r e i n t h e b u n d l e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , l e tt e r id e n t i fy th a t . I k n e w y o u w e r e a ll o w i n g h e r
e v i d e n c e t o fl o w
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t ju s t le t h e r i d e n ti f y t h a t a n d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M s M p s h e , w o u l d y o u p l e a s e l o o k a t u n d e r
t a b 5 8 in b u n d le . I t h in k i t ’s th e l a s t A n n e x u r e , b u n d le 1 5 D D 1 5 B .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , t h is is n o t my r e s p o n s e s t o

a l le g a ti o n s . Th is is a r e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t I w a s a s k e d t o d o .
20

CHAIRPERSON: After suspension?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A f t e r, j a i n 2 0 1 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M u c h l a te r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y. N o , I’ m t a l k i n g a b o u t th e r e s p o n s e o f th e

a l le g a ti o n s b e f o r e s h e w a s s u s p e n d e d .

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A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : N o , t h a t I d o n ’ t h a v e .
CHAIRPERSON: They are not here?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , I d o n ’ t th a t i n th e b u n d l e .
CHAIRPERSON: They should be here.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

W e w il l c o n s u l t M s M p s h e a n d m a k e s u r e

that we get that.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e le t t e r th a t s h e w a s g iv e n w h i c h s e t o u t t h e

a l le g a ti o n s , w h e r e is i t ? Is i t h e r e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t ’s p a r t o f t h a t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s n o t h e r e ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t ’s n o t h e r e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , i t ’s n o t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o th o s e th i n g s a r e i m p o r t a n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e w i ll a d d it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t l e t te r is i m p o r t a n t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e r r e s p o n s e to t h o s e a ll e g a ti o n s i s i m p o r t a n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Th e l e tt e r o f s u s p e n s i o n i s i m p o r t a n t. W h a t c a m e

a ft e r t h a t , a ll o f th o s e th i n g s a r e i m p o r t a n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I’ ll d o s o , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

P l e a s e m a k e a l l o f th o s e t h i n g s a v a i la b l e . I h a d

a lr e a d y s a id w h a te v e r o t h e r d o c u m e n ts m a y b e i m p o r t a n t b u t a l l o f

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t h o s e a r e i m p o r t a n t i n th e c o n te x t o f w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a p r o p e r c a s e
f o r a g a i n s t y o u b e c a u s e p a r t o f w h a t o n e is lo o k in g a t is w h e t h e r y o u
a r e j u s t c o m p l a i n in g in c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e m a n a g e m e n t o r t h e
a c ti n g C E O o r t h e b o a r d h a d a p r o p e r r e a s o n t o p u t a l le g a t i o n s a g a in s t
you. Had a proper reason to suspend you and or whether these
p r o c e s s e s w e r e b e i n g a b u s e d f o r o t h e r a g e n d a s . S o t h e r e f o r e i t ’s
i m p o r t a n t t o s e e w h a t w a s , w h a t w e r e th e a ll e g a t io n s , w h a t w a s y o u r
r e s p o n s e b e c a u s e w h e n t h o s e w h o t o o k t h o s e d e c is io n s c o m e h e r e th e y
w i ll n e e d t o d e a l w i th t h o s e a s w e ll . I f y o u r r e s p o n s e w a s a g o o d
10

r e s p o n s e , w h a t d i d th e y h a v e i n r e s p o n s e t o t h a t . H o w d i d th e y p r o c e e d
w i t h d is c i p l i n a r y a c ti o n i n t h e li g h t o f t h o s e r e s p o n s e s ? S o i t w i ll b e
i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e C o m m is s i o n t o l o o k a t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y, c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a n k y o u . T h e n p r o c e e d t h e n fr o m w h a t

happened.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . O n th e 6 t h t h e n I w a s g i v e n th e
c h a r g e s n o w.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h a t I h a v e b e e n c h a r g e d o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h e 6 t h o f A u g u s t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 6 t h o f A u g u s t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n 2 0 1 6 . S o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s i t s o m e o f th e a ll e g a t i o n s t h a t y o u h a d

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r e s p o n d e d t o o r w a s s t ill e x a c t ly th e s a m e m o r e o r l e s s a l l e g a ti o n s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s a c o m p l e te ly n e w t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s a c o m p le t e l y n e w t h i n g ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s n o t r e l a t e d t o t h e o t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C o m p l e te ly n e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n e w c a s e a l t o g e t h e r m o r e o r le s s ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

N o , I th in k t w o o r o n e o f th o s e

charges.
CHAIRPERSON: Remained?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Tw o o f t h o s e c h a r g e s y e s f lo w e d

fr o m t h e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e p r e v i o u s a l le g a ti o n s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
MS

M AT H U LWA N E

E M I LY

MPSH E:

And

then

the

others

were

c o m p le t e l y n e w m a t t e r s . A n d I w e n t t o c o ll e c t t h e c h a r g e s o n t h e 6 t h o f
20

A u g u s t a n d t h e h e a r in g w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n i n t h e f o l l o w i n g w e e k
o f w h ic h I h a d a lr e a d y a p p l ie d fo r le a v e a n d Mr Z w a n e h a d a p p r o v e d
t h e le a v e a n d w e w e r e g o i n g o v e r s e a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e s u s p e n s i o n ? Yo u h a d a p p l i e d f o r i t f o r l e a v e

before suspension?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , w h ils t I w a s o n s u s p e n s io n .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h il e y o u w e r e o n s u s p e n s i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . W h i l e I w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n , I
o n a d a i ly b a s is I h a d t o r e p o r t t o t h e C E O t o s a y I a m r e p o r ti n g f o r
d u t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d o y o u r e p o r t fo r d u ty w h e n y o u a r e s u s p e n d e d
fr o m d u t y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n a n S M S .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t s t il l y o u a r e s u s p e n d e d fr o m d u t y. T h a t

m e a n s d o n ’ t r e p o r t f o r d u ty b u t y o u w e r e a s k e d to r e p o r t?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , I w a s a s k e d t o r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r e p o r te d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d I r e p o r t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d w h a t I a ls o s a i d th a t t h e d a t e
t h a t t h e y h a d s e t f o r w a s w h e n a lr e a d y m y l e a v e w a s a p p r o v e d a n d I
w o u ld n ’t b e i n t h e c o u n tr y d u r i n g t h a t ti m e . S o I d i d n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d h o w
c o m e t h i s w a s n o t a l ig n i n g to w h a t h e h a d a p p r o v e d . S o I th e n s a i d w e
w i ll , m y a t t o r n e y s a i d w e w i ll l o o k a t th e d a te s o f t h e h e a r i n g w h e n I
r e tu r n fr o m th e . A n d w h e n y o u r e t u r n w e s e t u p t h e n e w d a te s a n d a s

20

w e w e r e s e t t in g u p t h e n e w d a t e s , I c h a n g e d a t to r n e y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o I t h e n m o v e d a tt o r n e y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o I a s k e d fo r a p o s t p o n e m e n t

once because we then changed attorneys.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e o t h e r ti m e s it w a s n o t a

p o s tp o n e m e n t . I t w a s b e c a u s e I w a s a lr e a d y h a d l e a v e t h a t w a s
approved.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d I w a s t r a v e li n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s w r o n g o f t h e m to h a v e fi x e d a d a t e w h e n t h e y
knew you were going to be on leave.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , y e s . S o I t h e n c h a n g e d

a tt o r n e y s a n d t h e n w e … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d . L e t m e ju s t g o b a c k a l it t le b it . I f
y o u l o o k a t th e l e t te r o f s u s p e n s i o n a n d y o u l o o k a t t h e n e w
a l le g a ti o n s , w h a t w a s t h e p o s i t io n w a s t h e r e c o r r e la t io n b e t w e e n t h e
t w o o r w a s th e l e t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n b a s e d o n t h e p r e v io u s a ll e g a t io n s
o r w a s t h e r e a c o n n e c t io n w i t h t h e n e w c h a r g e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , t h e s u s p e n s i o n w a s s a y i n g th a t
t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e i n v e s ti g a ti n g b e c a u s e t h e y b e li e v e t h e r e is a
20

b a s is .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n t h e m a t te r s th a t w e r e r a is e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : D e s p i t e my r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T hey are

not going

to

be

in v e s t i g a t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e n t h e y b e li e v e t h a t i t ’s i n

t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y t h a t I b e n o t b e in t h e c o m p a n y,
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I m u s t b e s u s p e n d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

D e s p it e th a t a ll a l o n g I h a d b e e n

working.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. S o y o u a r r a n g e d , y o u c h a n g e d y o u g o t a n e w

a tt o r n e y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e d a t e w a s a r r a n g e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s . A n d t h e d a t e w a s a r r a n g e d

a n d th e n w e m e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th is n o w S e p te m b e r o r s ti ll A u g u s t?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I th i n k n o w w e m e e ti n g in

S e p te m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , h m .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W e a r e m e e t in g i n S e p te m b e r t o

t h e n r e c e iv e t h e , t o s e t u p t h e n e w d a te s w i t h t h e n e w a t to r n e y s . S o w e
s e t u p t h e n e w d a t e s a n d t h e n w e a g r e e d th a t w e n e e d t o e x c h a n g e

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in f o r m a ti o n , e x c h a n g e b u n d le s a n d t h e n c o m e u p w i th a d a t e a n d th e
d a t e d i d n ’ t h a p p e n . I w a s n o t g iv e n . I g o t a r e s p o n s e t h a t is s a y i n g t h e y
d o n ’t a c c e s s t o t h e i n f o r m a t io n th a t I w a s r e q u ir i n g b e c a u s e n o w t h a t I
h a v e c h a r g e s I h a d t o p r e p a r e f o r m y d i s c i p l in a r y c a s e . S o w e s a id
in f o r m a ti o n . I n e e d e d t o g e t a c c e s s to m y la p t o p a n d s o m e o f th e
in f o r m a ti o n s o th a t w e c a n b e a b l e to p r e p a r e f o r t h e c h a r g e s th a t h a v e
b e e n p u t fo r w a r d . A n d t h a t t o o k a w h il e a n d w e d id n ’t r e c e iv e t h e
in f o r m a ti o n . O n c e w e w e r e s t ill o n th e r e a n d th e n i t w a s S e p t e m b e r
2 0 1 6 , y e s . Th e n i t w a s a m i d - t e r m b u d g e t in 2 0 1 6 . M i n i s te r P r a v i n w a s
10

a M i n i s te r o f F i n a n c e a n d i n h i s a d d r e s s o f th e m id - t e r m b u d g e t , M r
Pravin mentions that.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordon.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r G o r d o n , M in is t e r G o r d o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Pravin is the name
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a n k y o u , c h a ir. M i n is t e r G o r d o n
m e n ti o n e d t h a t a b o u t S O C s in p a r ti c u l a r S A A a n d t h e y h a v e a p p o i n te d
a n e w b o a r d a n d o n e o f t h e fir s t r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o r k e y r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s
o f t h e b o a r d is t o r e v i e w t h e s u s p e n s i o n s a n d d is m is s a ls o f s o m e
e x e c u tiv e s . B y th a t ti m e , I w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n , D o c to r D a h w a w a s

20

d is m i s s e d , M s C y n t h ia S t i m p le I th i n k w a s o n s u s p e n s io n . Mr S y l v a i n
B o s c w a s o n s u s p e n s io n b y th a t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s th e l a s t o n e y o u m e n ti o n e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r B o s c .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , h e w a s a l s o o n s u s p e n s i o n b y

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t h e ti m e . S o M i n i s te r o f F in a n c e s a id o n e o f t h e th i n g s is t h a t t h e y w i ll
lo o k i n to th e s u s p e n s io n t o s e e i f y o u k n o w, p r o c e s s w a s fo ll o w e d a n d
t h e ju s t c o u r s e w a s d o n e . T h a t w a s in S e p t e m b e r. E n d o f S e p t e m b e r m y
a tt o r n e y s w r o t e to t h e M i n is t e r a n d t h e n c o p i e d M r K h o li s i o f B M K
A t t o r n e y s , c o p i e d t h e c h a ir o f t h e b o a r d M s D u d u My e n i b u t w r o te
d ir e c t ly t o t h e M i n is t e r t o r a i s e m y p li g h t a n d a ls o t o s a y t o t h e M i n is t e r
in y o u r s t a te o f t h e , S O N A , n o t S O N A . In y o u r b u d g e t s p e e c h y o u
m e n ti o n e d t h i s . I t w a s n o w t h e e n d o f S e p te m b e r. S o m y a t t o r n e y w a s
s a y in g p l e a s e b e a w a r e w e a r e r e p r e s e n ti n g M s M p s h e a n d M s M p s h e
10

w e b e l i e v e th e r e is n o u l te r i o r m o ti v e s w h y s h e ’s b e e n s u s p e n d e d , w h y
s h e h a s b e e n c h a r g e d a n d w e r e s p o n d e d o n t h is a n d t h is is t h e p li g h t
a n d t h e le t t e r i s s o m e w h e r e i n th e b u n d l e t h a t t h e a t to r n e y w r o te t o th e
M i n is t e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h is l e t t e r is A n n e x u r e T M 5 5 . I t ’s u n d e r t a b
55.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t is in t h e b u n d l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it might not be necessary to go into it, ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a i t m i g h t n o t b e n e c e s s a r y.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o t h a t w a s t h e g is t o f t h e l e t te r

a n d t h e y e v e n s e n t a c l ip t h a t w a s c u t f r o m t h e s p e e c h , a v i d e o c li p
t h a t w a s c u t fr o m t h e s p e e c h w h e r e h e m e n ti o n e d . S o i t w a s s e n t t o t h e
o ffic e o f th e M in is t e r a n d t h a t t h e e n d . I t h i n k 2 8 t h o f S e p t e m b e r. T h e r e
w a s n o r e s p o n s e . I t h in k t h e n e x t f o l lo w - u p r e s p o n s e t o t h e o ff ic e o f t h e

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M i n is t e r w a s i n N o v e m b e r s o m e t i m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t ’s D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 6 . I t i s a ls o i n t h e b u n d l e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r, w a s it ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 6 t h o f D e c e m b e r.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

6 t h o f D e c e m b e r, w a s a f o ll o w - u p

fr o m th e M in is t e r f r o m t h e l e t t e r o f S e p te m b e r. W e d i d n ’ t r e c e iv e a n y
r e s p o n s e t o t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n t h e m e a n ti m e , n o d a te h a s b e e n a g r e e d f o r t h e

h e a r in g ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I n t h e m e a n ti m e th e d a t e w a s n o t

a g r e e d b u t w h a t w e t h e n h a d a f o r m a l m e e ti n g w i th t h e P r e s i d in g
O ff ic e r w h ic h w a s a n e x t e r n a l A d v o c a te a n d w i th K h o l is i w h o w a s a l s o
r e p r e s e n ti n g S A A a s t h e d is c ip li n a r y o ffi c e r a n d w it h m y a tt o r n e y. In
there we decided on the way forward and then we agreed that before
w e a c t u a l ly c o m e u p t o t h e d a te w h a t w e n e e d e d t o d o w a s t o g e t
a c c e s s t o S A A’s w it n e s s e s a n d a ls o t r y a n d g e t t h e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t I
n e e d t o g e t t o a ll o w a n d a r r a n g e f o r m e t o g e t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n . S o th a t
w a s th e a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t w a s d o n e a n d th a t w a s a g r e e d a n d it w a s
r e c o r d e d a n d i t w a s f o r m a l t h a t w e h a d th a t m e e ti n g . S o t h e P r e s i d i n g
20

o ffic e r w a s t h e n g o i n g to c o m e b a c k o n c e w e h a d g iv e n h i m a d a te a f te r
w e h a v e h a d th is a d m i n i s t r a t iv e is s u e s o u t o f t h e w a y o f i n te r v i e w i n g
t h e w it n e s s e s a n d th e n m e g e t t in g in f o r m a ti o n ; t h a t ’s t h e o u t s t a n d i n g
in f o r m a ti o n . A n d t h e n w e t h e n a r r a n g e d t o h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e
witnesses at SAA and we interviewed the witnesses and the witnesses
w e r e c o l la b o r a ti n g m y s t o r y a n d a lo n g t h e li n e M r K h o l is i o f B M K g o t

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u p s e t a n d s a id t h a t h e h a s g o t h o s t il e w i t n e s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e in t e r v i e w i n g o f S A A w i t n e s s e s o c c u r r e d i n t h e
p r e s e n c e o f S A A’s e x te r n a l a tt o r n e y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r K h o l is i .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s y o u r a t t o r n e y, y o u r s e l f ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r K h o l is i
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e i n t e r v i e w i n g t h e s e w i tn e s s e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e w i t n e s s e s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e s e w i t n e s s e s w h a t th e y w e r e s a y i n g w a s

s u p p o r t in g y o u r d e f e n c e , y o u r s to r y ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n Mr K h o l is i t h e y w e r e h o s ti le w i t n e s s e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , h e s a id t h e y w e r e h o s ti le

w i t n e s s e s a n d h e s a i d th e y a c tu a l ly s tr u g g l e d t o f in d w it n e s s e s
b e c a u s e p e o p l e d i d n ’ t w a n t to te s t i fy a g a i n s t m e . S o in a d d i t io n w e a s k
20

h i m t o g iv e u s a b u n d l e a n d th e n i n t h e b u n d le h e h a d s t a te m e n ts f r o m
t h e w i tn e s s e s a n d t h e s ta t e m e n ts fr o m t h e w i t n e s s e s w e r e n o t s i g n e d .
S o w h e n w e w e r e i n te r v i e w i n g t h e w i t n e s s e s a n d w e a s k e d a b o u t th e
s t a te m e n ts t h a t w e r e n o t s ig n e d t h e w i t n e s s e s t h a t th o s e s t a t e m e n ts
a r e n o t w h a t w e g a v e ; th a t is n o t t h e i n f o r m a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t th e to l d t h e a t to r n e y ?

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M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a t t h e y to l d t h e a t t o r n e y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o t h e y h a v e t h e ir o w n s ta t e m e n ts
t h a t th e y h a v e s i g n e d t h a t t h e y h a v e g iv e n u s ; th a t t h e y w il l g iv e u s
a n d th e y g a v e u s w h i c h s t a t e m e n t s w e r e d i ff e r e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: And he saw both the ones that were given to you and
t h o s e t h a t w e r e in M r K h o li s i ’s p o s s e s s i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e y w e r e d i ff e r e n t?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e y w e r e d i ffe r e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d t h e o n e s t h a t w e r e in M r K h o l is i ’s p o s s e s s i o n

i m p l ic a t e y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e y w e r e i m p lic a ti n g m e , c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e o n e s t h a t w e r e g iv e n t o y o u th a t t h e

w i t n e s s e s s a i d w e r e t h e ir s t a te m e n ts w e r e s u p p o r t iv e o f y o u ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of your story?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f m y s t o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d th o s e w e r e s i g n e d ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h o s e w e r e s i g n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d o v e r a n d a b o v e th a t o n e o f th e
s t a te m e n ts , o n e o f t h e w i tn e s s e s h a d a lr e a d y g iv e n m e a n a ffi d a v it i n
A p r il a lr e a d y. S o t h e s t a te m e n t th a t w a s th e r e a n d w h a t w a s i n t h e
a ffi d a v i t c o m p le t e l y d i ffe r e n t . S o t h e y w e r e a ls o s a y i n g t h a t t h e y, h e i s

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n o t tr u s t e d , h e i s n o t h o n e s t in t h a t h e is p u t ti n g t h i n g s th a t w e r e n o t
s a i d ; p u t t in g t h i n g s th a t i m p li c a t in g m e o r m a k i n g o f a c a s e w h ic h is n o t
w h a t t h e y s a i d . S o t h e d a y a f te r w e h a d i n te r v i e w e d t h e w i t n e s s e s , t h e
o n e w i t n e s s c a ll e d m e a n d c a ll e d m e a n d s a i d s h e w a s c a ll e d t o a
m e e ti n g w i t h th e t h e n a c t in g G M H R w h o w a s t a k i n g m y p l a c e a n d t o
s a y th a t s h e ’s a h o s til e w i tn e s s a n d w h y d i d s h e r e s p o n d a n d b e h a v e
t h e w a y t h a t s h e b e h a v e d . A n d t h e n s h e s a i d w e ll , I h a v e t o ld t h e t r u t h
a n d I c a n e v e n s h o w y o u m y s t a te m e n t . S o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :
10

S o r r y Ms M p s h e , i f I m a y d i s tu r b y o u . D o

y o u s ti ll h a v e t h e s ta t e m e n ts ? T h e o n e s t h a t y o u w e r e g iv e n b y th e s e
w i t n e s s e s a n d th e o n e s t h a t y o u g o t fr o m M r K h o li s i ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

U n fo r t u n a te ly, I lo s t m y s t a t e m e n t

w h e n I h a n d e d o v e r m y fi le s t o th e C o m m i s s io n s i n v e s ti g a t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s u r e th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s h a v e g o t i t i f y o u g a v e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

C h a ir, I tr i e d b e c a u s e t h o s e w e r e

t h e o n ly. W h e n I g a v e th e m I s a id lo o k I’ m g iv in g y o u w i th t h e tr u s t th a t
I’ ll g e t t h e m b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d w h a t I g o t b a c k h a l f t h e s t u ff
20

w a s m is s i n g , h a lf t h e s t u ff w a s ; I l o s t t h a t k in d o f e v id e n c e . I c a n f in d i t
but yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l , w i ll y o u p l e a s e g i v e M s B u th e l e z i t h e n a m e s o f
t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s t o w h o m y o u h a n d e d o v e r th a t in f o r m a ti o n , th o s e
s t a te m e n ts .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e y w e r e ; t h e y k n o w w h o i t is .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s h e h a s g o t ; s h e k n o w s th e n a m e s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o , M s B u th e l e z i d o e s n ’ t k n o w. M r
K ir tl a n d k n o w s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I’ ll f o l lo w - u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , s h e w il l f o l l o w u p b u t I w o u l d li k e a r e p o r t l a t e r o n
b e c a u s e t h o s e s t a te m e n ts a r e i m p o r t a n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e n o n e o f t h e w it n e s s e s w h o
w a s th e h e a d o f s e c u r i t y a n d o n e o f th e a ll e g a ti o n s t h a t I w a s , w a s i n
t h e a l le g a ti o n a n d n o w is a c h a r g e is t h a t I a b u s e d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe Ms Mpshe, before we leave this part. I would
lik e y o u t o s e n d s o m e t h i n g i n w r it i n g m a y b e t o th e S e c to r o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n , a c ti n g s e c r e t a r y o r h a n d i t o v e r to M s B u t h e l e z i th a t s a y s
e x a c tl y w h a t i t is t h a t y o u h a d h a n d e d o v e r. L is t t h e m a n d w h a t i t is
t h a t y o u g o t b a c k s o th a t o n e k n o w s e x a c t ly w h a t y o u d id n ’ t g e t b a c k
and who you handed it over to and who gave you back what. Okay?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w il l, c h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d o n e o f th e a l le g a ti o n s o f

m is c o n d u c t p r e v i o u s l y a n d n o w a c h a r g e w h ic h is n o w b e i n g tr a n s fe r r e d
t o a c h a r g e w a s t h a t I a b u s e d m y p o s i t i o n o f p o w e r. In t h a t I d i d n ’ t

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f o ll o w d u e p r o c e s s a n d a p p o i n t e d a s e c u r it y fo r my s e l f w i t h o u t fa ll i n g
d u e p r o c e s s . S o th e h e a d o f s e c u r i ty h a d a ls o g iv e n th e a ff i d a v i t a n d
t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d r e fu s e d t o s i g n t h e s ta t e m e n t fr o m Mr K h o li s i . A d a y
a ft e r w e i n t e r v i e w e d h i m a s a w i tn e s s h e w a s a ls o c a l l e d in t o Mr
M u s a ’s o ffi c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r Z w a n e ’s o ff ic e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M r Z w a n e ’s o ffic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

H e w a s c a ll e d t o M r Z w a n e ’s a n d

w i t h Mr K h o lis i t h e r e ; t h e a t t o r n e y n o w r e p r e s e n t in g S A A . A n d h e w a s
a s k e d w h y i s h e n o t c o o p e r a ti n g a n d w h y d id h e r e fu s e d t o s i g n t h e
s t a te m e n t t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d f o r h i m . S o h e a ls o i n fo r m e d m e . H e c a l le d
m e a n d in f o r m e d m e a s t o t h a t w h a t w a s a s k e d o f h i m . S o , c h a ir, t h e n
a ft e r w e h a d b e c a u s e t h i s w a s o n r e c o r d a n d i t w a s a ls o , i t w a s t a p e d .
CHAIRPERSON: It was recorded, yes.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s r e c o r d e d .
CHAIRPERSON: On tape, ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

J a a n d i t w a s a ls o p a r t o f t h e

p r o c e e d i n g s t h a t w e a g r e e d w i t h t h e P r e s i d i n g o ff ic e r t h a t w e s t a r t t h e
20

p r o c e s s a lr e a d y b y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I n t e r v i e w i n g w i t n e s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d o u r s tr a t e g y w a s w i t h t h e

a tt o r n e y w a s w it h t h e , i n i n t e r v ie w … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : R e v e l a ti o n s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W i t h t h e o u tc o m e o f t h e in t e r v ie w

w e w il l t h e n w e n t to s t o p a n d s a y t o S A A a f t e r t h e s e i n te r v i e w s a n d
w h a t h a s b e e n c o r r o b o r a te d d o y o u s t il l w a n t to c o n ti n u e ? S o a f te r w e
h a v e d o n e t h a t w e t h e n s a i d t o Mr K h o li s i, w e w a n t t o k n o w. H e s a i d
w e ll b a s e d o n t h i s i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t is g iv e n a n d s o m e o f t h e i n f o r m a ti o n
w a s n e w t h a t h e w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n . W e t h e n a s k e d h i m
h e s t il l w a n ts t o p r o c e e d . H e s a y s w e ll b a s e d o n t h e in f o r m a t io n I
w o u ld n ’t w a n t t o p r o c e e d . H o w e v e r, I h a v e t o g e t a m a n d a t e fr o m m y
10

p r i n c i p l e s . S o I ’l l c o m e b a c k t o y o u w i th a m a n d a t e fr o m m y p r i n c ip l e s .
S o w e th e n a g r e e d t h a t i t w a s t o w a r d s th e e n d o f N o v e m b e r. W e a g r e e
t h a t y o u m u s t p l e a s e g e t a r e s p o n s e t o t h e m a n d a t e f r o m h is c l ie n ts
b e f o r e w e g o o n t h e b r e a k , D e c e m b e r w h e r e p e o p l e a r e g o in g to g o i n
D e c e m b e r o n l e a v e . A n d b e c a u s e w e s a id i f t h e y s a y t h e y w a n t to
c o n ti n u e w e w a n t t o a lr e a d y b e f o r e w e b r e a k e v e r y d a t e o f th e
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g a n d i f y o u a r e n o t c o n ti n u i n g t h e n w e w e n t t o t a l k
a b o u t th e w a y f o r w a r d . W e a g r e e d th a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o c o m e
b a c k t o u s o n t h e , I t h in k i t w a s t h e 9 t h o f D e c e m b e r a n d h e d i d n ’ t c o m e
b a c k to u s o n th e 9 t h o f D e c e m b e r. W e fo l lo w e d u p w i t h t h e m . H e s a i d

20

h e h a s n ’ t g o t a n y b r ie f fr o m t h e c l i e n t o n t h is m a t t e r. W e f o l lo w e d u p o n
ju s t b e f o r e t h e 1 5 t h b r e a k a n d h e s a i d h e h a s n ’ t g o t a b r i e f o n th e
m a t t e r. A n d t h e n w e d i d b r e a k fo r t h e h o li d a y s f o r t h e D e c e m b e r
h o li d a y s . A n d a t th e e n d o f J a n u a r y w h ic h i s n o w J a n u a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: 2017?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 2 0 1 7 .

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W e t h e n a s k e d f o r a d a t e fr o m M r
K h o l is i. H e t h e n s a i d h e h a s n o b r i e f o n t h e m a t t e r. W e ju s t l e f t t h e
matter and.
CHAIRPERSON:

S A A w a s c o n ti n u i n g t o p a y y o u y o u r s a l a r y i n t h e . ..

( in d is ti n c t) y o u w e r e o n s u s p e n s i o n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C o r r e c t , c h a ir, I w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n
w i t h p a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C o r r e c t , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e n o n t h e , t h a t w a s J a n u a r y
2 0 1 7 . A n d t h e n I r e c e iv e d , it m u s t h a v e b e e n A u g u s t / S e p t e m b e r. I n t h e
m e a n t i m e , i t w a s q u i e t a n d Mr K h o l is i w a s n o w h e r e . I n 2 0 1 7 I th in k
A u g u s t o r S e p t e m b e r w h i c h r e la t e s t o t h i s 5 7 , t h is T M 5 7 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 5 8 , y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ja, 58; 57/58. I then received a

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m S A A s a y i n g t h a t t h e b o a r d . N o w th is is S e p t e m b e r
2 0 1 7 w h ic h is a y e a r la t e r a ft e r t h e M i n i s t e r o f F i n a n c e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t’s S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 7 ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e r e c e iv e d th e a ll e g a ti o n s a g a in s t y o u .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d t h e c h a r g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Sometime in.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e c h a r g e in A u g u s t.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
CHAIRPERSON: 2016 August.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t th e c h a r g e b u t t h e a c t u a l l e tt e r o f a l le g a ti o n s w a s
m u c h e a r l ie r. Is n ’ t i t ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h e a c t u a l l e tt e r w a s i n J a n u a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Was in January 2016?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h i s w h o l e t h in g w a s n o w t a k i n g a b o u t t w o y e a r s ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I w a s o n s u s p e n s io n f o r 2 2 m o n t h s ,
10

c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s j u s t fr o m s u s p e n s i o n b u t fr o m t h e t i m e y o u

w e r e g i v e n th is le t t e r w i th a l l e g a ti o n s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , i t’s m o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s n o w.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , b e c a u s e I r e c e iv e d t h e l e t te r

in J a n u a r y. I w a s s u s p e n d e d i n M a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a n u a r y a n d M a y is fi v e m o n t h s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s , a n d fiv e m o n th s t o th e 2 2

m o n th s is 2 7 m o n t h s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O n t h i s w h o le s a g a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 7 y o u g e t t h is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I g e t a c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m S A A

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d ir e c t ly t o m e s a y t h a t t h e b o a r d w a n t s m e to d o r e p r e s e n ta t io n s a s t o
w h y I b e li e v e th a t m y s u s p e n s io n m u s t b e u p li f te d a n d th e d is c i p l in a r y
c h a r g e s m u s t a ls o b e d r o p p e d . I t h e n p r e p a r e d a r e p r e s e n ta t io n w h ic h
is w h a t o n 5 8 n o w ; th e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n .
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

I t ’s A n n e x u r e T M 5 8 . I t a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e

432.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M y r e p r e s e n t a ti o n i n s h o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir, I j u s t , I w o n ’ t g o th r o u g h l i n e
b y l in e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y e s ju s t t h e i m p o r ta n t p o in ts .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , t h e i m p o r ta n t p o i n ts w a s t h a t ,
in t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F i r s t b e f o r e t h a t , d id y o u g e t a n u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t
p r o m p te d t h is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a f t e r c lo s e t o t w o y e a r s fr o m S A A t o s a y
you

must

make

r e p r e s e n ta t io n s

fr o m

the

l e t te r,

fr o m

the

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ? I s th e r e a n y th i n g t h a t g a v e y o u a n i d e a w h a t I’ h a d
g iv e n r i s e t o t h e m a s k i n g y o u to m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s ?
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : B e s id e s w r it i n g t o t h e M in is t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f f in a n c e , I d i d w r it e to th e d e p u t y
c h a ir o f t h e b o a r d a n d t h e c h a ir o f R e mc o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S a m e m e s s a g e t h a t I h a d g i v e n t o

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t h e m t o th e M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e a n d th a t w a s a ls o i n N o v e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h b u t a ls o , a l s o th e M in is te r h a d s e n t th e r e w o u l d

b e a n e e d f o r t h e s u s p e n s i o n s to b e r e v i e w e d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e i n p a r t t h a t w a s in r e s p o n s e t o th a t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o t h e n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Sorry Ms Mpshe, was there a new board in
10

p l a c e a t t h e ti m e ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t w a s a n e w b o a r d in p l a c e a t t h e
ti m e b u t M s M y e n i w a s s t il l t h e c h a ir o f t h e b o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e n e w b o a r d h a d c o m e in t o e x is te n c e f r o m w h e n i f
y o u r e m e m b e r ? E a r ly in 2 0 1 7 , m id 1 7 ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

It had just been announced when

the Minister of Finance did the budget which is September 2017.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

He made reference to the new

board.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, j a .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n in A u g u s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, y e s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 2 0 1 7 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u m a d e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s ?

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

2016 yes.

I m a d e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s

and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o w t o th e n e w B o a r d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a a n d th e n …
CHAIRPERSON: As to why the suspension …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld b e li f t e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d th is is fa c i li t a t e d t h r o u g h w h a t
t h e y s a i d w a s a n i n d e p e n d e n t l a b o u r c o r e s p e c i a lis t . S o I r e s p o n d e d i n
w r i t in g a n d th e n I d i d a b u n d le a ls o t h a t I s e n t t o S A A t w o – t w o a r c h
le v e r f il e s l ik e th is a n d t h e n I w a s c a ll e d f o r a n i n t e r v ie w a n d I h a d a
f o u r h o u r i n t e r v i e w w it h th is p e r s o n w h o w a s th e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h th e i n d e p e n d e n t la b o u r s p e c i a l is t?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W i th t h e in d e p e n d e n t , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s .

So after I had responded I

t h e n a s k e d t h e in d e p e n d e n t – w e ll a t – a t t h e e n d – w e l l m y i n t e r v ie w I
20

a s k e d h i m h o w lo n g is t h i s p r o c e s s g o in g t o t a k e fr o m t h e n a n d th e n h e
s a i d t o – t o m e h e h a d a c o u p le o f w i t n e s s e s .

Maybe by the end of

S e p te m b e r h e w il l h a v e c o m p l e t e d h i s r e p o r t .
T h e n I s h o u ld r e c e iv e t h e o u tc o m e a n d – a n d n o w I d id n o t
r e c e i v e a n y o u tc o m e b y S e p t e m b e r a n d i n O c t o b e r I - I w r o te to S A A t o
fi n d o u t w h a t – w h a t is th e o u tc o m e a n d t h a t i s in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 7 a n d i n

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
November – 1 November 2017 Mr Jarana became the CEO and I think
the Board was also changed in that process.
S o I t h e n – i t w a s a n o th e r B o a r d b u t s o m e o f t h e B o a r d
M e m b e r s w e r e s t il l i n t h a t B o a r d b u t M s M y e n i w a s n o l o n g e r t h e C h a ir
o f t h e B o a r d i n 2 0 1 7 w h e n Mr J a r a n a s t a r t e d – N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 7 . N o w I
w a s s ti ll a w a it i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o v e m b e r, D e c e m b e r, J a n u a r y l a te
F e b r u a r y I g o t a c a l l fr o m t h e o ff ic e o f M r J a r a n a . T h i s is m i d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t is 2 0 1 8 n o w ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : 2 0 1 8 n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I g o t a c a l l fr o m t h e o ff ic e o f

M r J a r a n a w a n ti n g t o m e e t w it h m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

We

arranged

a

m e e ti n g

with

M r J a r a n a I t h i n k t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d in t h e m e e ti n g M r J a r a n a s a id
20

t o m e th a t – h e in tr o d u c e d h i m s e l f a s t h e C E O a n d – y o u k n o w – h e h a s
– h e h a s b e e n c h a r g e d – h e w i ll t u r n a r o u n d t h e a ir li n e a n d t h is m a t t e r
is – i s b e i n g c a r r i e d b y th e B o a r d a n d h e e m p h a s i s e d th a t i t h a s g o t
n o t h i n g t o d o w it h h i m . H e is n e w. I t h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o - to d o w i t h
h i m a n d h e s a y s t h a t t h e C h a ir o f R A M C O a c t u a ll y is t h e o n e t h a t is
r u n n in g w i t h t h is p r o c e s s a n d th e n th e y b e l ie v e t h a t I h a v e s o m e t h i n g

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
to answer to.
I s a i d o k a y.

W h a t a s p e c ts o f t h e w h o l e t h i n g d o I h a v e t o

a n s w e r t o ? W e l l h e d i d n o t k n o w. I t h e n s a i d t o Mr J a r a n a d id y o u s e e
the report.

He says no he has not seen the report.

I th e n s a id to

M r J a r a n a I – I r e a l ly b e c a u s e I c o n tr ib u t e d to th a t r e p o r t I w il l r e a l ly
lik e t o g e t a c o p y o f t h a t r e p o r t a n d a ls o I w il l li k e y o u t o in w r i t in g
c o m m u n ic a te t o m e w h a t o f t h o s e c h a r g e s I n e e d t o a n s w e r t o b e c a u s e
in m y v i e w I h a v e a d e q u a te ly r e s p o n d e d t o th e c h a r g e s .
H e t h e n s a i d y e s I h e a r y o u b u t I a m n o t q u i te i n te r e s t e d i n
10

t h is w h o l e m a tt e r o f d is c i p l in e . I h a d a v ie w th a t w e s h o u l d d o – y o u
k n o w – a m u t u a l s e p a r a t i o n a n d t h e n I s a i d to h i m w h a t a r e t h e t e r m s .
H e s a i d w e l l h e w o u l d t h i n k a b o u t i t . S o h e c a m e t o t h e m e e ti n g to t e ll
m e t h a t I h a v e s o m e t h i n g to a n s w e r t o . H e d i d n o t k n o w w h a t I n e e d e d
to answer to. He had not read the report and he came …
CHAIRPERSON:

H e s a i d h e d i d n o t w a n t to h a v e – th is t h i n g h a d

nothing to do with him?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
20

A n d t h e n h e t h e n w a n t s to h a v e a

m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n a n d I a s k e d a b o u t t h e t e r m s . H e d o e s n o t h a v e t h e
terms.

S o w e e n d a m e e ti n g b y s a y i n g c a n I p l e a s e h a v e i n w r i t in g

fr o m y o u a c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t , w h a t a l le g a t io n s d o I s ti ll h a v e to a n s w e r
t o a n d y o u r t e r m s o f th e m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n a n d i t w a s t h e e n d o f
F e b r u a r y.
A n o th e r tw o w e e k s p a s s e s . I t is M a r c h n o w 2 0 1 8 . I r e c e iv e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
correspondence from Mr Jarana and in the correspondence Mr Jarana
s a y s M s M p s h e I a m g l a d th a t w e h a d a m e e ti n g o f t h e m in d s a t th e
m e e ti n g .

W e a g r e e d o n m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n .

So we need to start

n e g o ti a ti n g o n m u tu a l s e p a r a t i o n .
I th e n r e s p o n d e d .

I s a i d M r J a r a n a th a t is n o t t h e tr u e

v e r s i o n o f t h a t m e e t in g . T h is is th e v e r s i o n o f th e m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u r e c o r d e d w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

And then he followed up with the

c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t a n d t h e n w i th – w i t h th e t e r m s o n th e m u t u a l
s e p a r a t io n . S o I – w e l o o k e d a t t h e c o p y r e p o r t a n d m u t u a l s e p a r a t io n
w i t h t h e – w i t h my a t to r n e y a n d w e f e l t th a t lo o k s t il l w h a t i t c l a i m s t o
b e s o m e t h i n g th a t I n e e d to a n s w e r t o . W e b e li e v e th a t .
We – we have answered and we believe that even if we take
t h e m a t t e r fo r w a r d w e w il l w i n t h e c a s e b u t m y a tt o r n e y s a y s t o m e .
Yo u k n o w th is is n o w 2 2 m o n t h s o n s u s p e n s i o n . Yo u k n o w – t h e w h o l e
s t a r ti n g o f th is s a g a a s w e c a lc u la t e i t n o w is a b o u t 2 0 – 2 7 m o n th s o f
t h is m a t t e r a n d c o m p a n i e s d o n o t u s e t h e ir o w n m o n e y a n d S O E s u s e
20

t h e t a x p a y e r s m o n e y. T h e y c a n d r a g i t a g a i n .
T h e y h a v e n o th in g t o u s e .

I f y o u w a n t t o t a k e t h e m a tt e r

f o r w a r d a n d t a k e i t a n d I a m c o n fi d e n t t h a t w e w i ll – w e w i ll w i n t h e
c a s e a n d I w a s a ls o c o n f id e n t t h a t w e w il l w in t h e c a s e . S o – b u t w it h
a l l t h a t h a s b e e n s a id – d o n e a n d m y l e g a l b il ls w e r e c l o s e t o h a l f a
m il li o n a t th a t ti m e a n d s a id l o o k it is u p t o y o u . I s a id n o le t m e s le e p

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
over it.
I w e n t h o m e , d i s c u s s e d w i th m y h u s b a n d a n d o f c o u r s e m y
h u s b a n d h a d a l l – l o n g ti m e a g o s a i d I m u s t j u s t w a l k a w a y fr o m t h i s .
W e th e n s a id o k a y l e t u s r a t h e r t h e n n e g o ti a t e t h e m u t u a l a g r e e m e n t –
m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t .

Th e n w e s t a r te d w i th m y a t t o r n e y t o

c o r r e s p o n d b a c k a n d t o – w i t h t h e S A A o n t h e t e r ms o f t h e m u tu a l
s e p a r a t io n a n d o n e o f th e t h i n g s w h ic h w a s q u it e i m p o r t a n t fo r m e w a s
t o a t l e a s t S A A t o r e fu n d m y le g a l f e e s a n d i n th e fi n a l a n a ly s is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w m o r e o r le s s t h e s a m e a s M r B o s c h ?
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : J a . H i s w a s s li g h t ly m o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . I m e a n i n te r m s o f t h e p r in c i p l e .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s i n t e r m s o f th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e h e w a s a l s o s a y in g …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h e y c a n ju s t p a y h is l e g a l …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B ill s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u w e r e a t th e s a m e – o n t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n n o w ?

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

Ye s ; a n d th e n my – m y a t to r n e y

s a y s y o u k n o w i n te r ms o f th e s e t tl e m e n t i f – i f I a m – i f th e c a s e h a s t o
g o t o t h e C C M A a n d I h a v e t o b e r e in s t a t e d .
m a x i m u m 1 2 m o n t h s s e t t le m e n t .
s e t tl e m e n t w e w i ll p u t 1 2 m o n t h s .

T h e C C M A w il l g i v e

W e s a i d l e t u s b e r e a li s tic .

In the

W e w i ll p u t t h e l e g a l fe e s .

Th o s e

w e r e t h e t w o b i g o n e s a n d t h e n t h e t o in g a n d fr o i n g a n d M r J a r a n a i n

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t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e h a s s a id h e a c t u a l ly w a n t e d t h i s s e p a r a ti o n t o b e
e ffe c tiv e a t t h e e n d o f M a r c h .
S o w e th e n – y o u k n o w – s e n t to s a y t h e i n fo r m a t i o n
w h a t e v e r a n d t h e n h e - i t w a s q u i e t f o r a w h il e a n d o n e v e n in g o f t h e
2 9 t h o r t h e 3 0 t h h e th e n r e s p o n d e d b a c k w it h t h is s a y i n g t h e a g r e e m e n t
is e ff e c t iv e th e 3 0 t h .
f o ll o w i n g d a y.

W h i c h is e i t h e r t h e f o l l o w i n g m o r n in g – th e

I t i s e ff e c t iv e th e f o ll o w i n g d a y a n d h e – t h e c o m p a n y

w o u ld n o t p a y fo r m y l e g a l fe e s .
T h e y w i ll a g r e e f o r a 1 2 m o n t h s e p a r a ti o n a n d o t h e r m i n o r
10

t h i n g s a n d a t t h a t p o i n t I - I ju s t f e l t th a t i t w a s n o t n e g o ti a ti o n in g o o d
f a i t h . I t is c o m i n g o n th e l a s t m i n u t e w h e n t h e l a s t d a y is th e f o l lo w in g
d a y a n d I j u s t s a i d I h a v e a ls o – I r e s t m y c a s e . I h a v e h a d i t. I ju s t
c o n fir m t h a t I a m s i g n i n g ir r e s p e c t iv e a n d I t h e n s ig n e d t h e m u t u a l
s e p a r a t io n a n d t h a t is h o w t h e o ffic i a l a n d d a t e o f m y e m p lo y m e n t is
30 March 2018.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were paid 12 months …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a y r e m u n e r a t io n ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d y o u r l e g a l f e e s w e r e n o t p a id ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : L e g a l f e e s w e r e n o t p a id .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

O f c o u r s e th e – t h e p e o p le w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d

a l l o f th is w i ll c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e o r t h e y m a y – t h e y m a y c o m e a t
le a s t t h e y w ill b e g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty a n d th e n a t t h e e n d t h e

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C o m m i s s i o n w i ll l o o k a t – a t t h e v a r io u s v e r s io n s a n d m a k e a d e c i s i o n
b u t a s s u m i n g th a t w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e a b o u t h o w y o u w e r e d e a l t w i t h
a n d a s s u m i n g t h a t D r D a h w a - h is s t o r y a b o u t h o w h e w a s d e a l t w i t h
a n d a s s u m i n g t h a t I w i ll h e a r w h o le e v id e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o M r B o s c a n d
t h a t i t w o u l d in l i n e w i t h t h a t y o u h a v e to l d m e a n d I th i n k a n u m b e r o f
o th e r p e o p l e i t w o u l d a p p e a r th a t w e ll i f t h a t – t h o s e a r e t h e f a c ts t h a t
a number of senior management people may have been dealt with a
m a n n e r t h a t t o s a y th e l e a s t i s q u e s ti o n a b l e a n d a n u m b e r o f t h e m
ended
10

up

having

to

accept some

s e t tl e m e n t , m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n

a g r e e m e n t a n d w a lk a w a y in c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e t h e r e m i g h t n o t h a v e
b e e n a p r o p e r c a s e f o r t h e m t o b e d is c i p l in e d .
O t h e r th a n t h a t t h e y w e r e r e s i s t i n g a t t e m p ts t o h a v e w r o n g
t h i n g s d o n e , to d is r e g a r d p r o c e d u r e s a n d s o o n a n d i f t h a t is w h a t t h e
C o m m i s s i o n u l t i m a te ly fi n d s i t w i ll b e s o m e t h i n g o f g r e a t c o n c e r n a n d in
t h e p r o c e s s s o m e o f t h e s e p e o p le i n c u r r e d l o ts o f le g a l b il ls a n d t h e y
w e r e p u t in d i ff ic u l t s i tu a ti o n s .
D o y o u h a v e a n y t h in g t o s a y a b o u t m a y b e s o m e o f t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d c o n s id e r m a k i n g i n
r e g a r d t o h o w s o m e o f t h o s e S e n i o r M a n a g e r s a n d E x e c u tiv e s w e r e

20

d e a lt w i t h i f w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e a n d w h a t th e y h a v e b e e n t e l li n g m e
is f o u n d t o b e th e tr u t h ?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir I w o u l d n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u w e r e n o t r e a d y f o r t o –
to deal with?
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : N o . I w a s n o t r e a d y f o r th a t C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , n o t h a t is fi n e . I f l a te r o n y o u – y o u a n d
s o m e o f t h e p e o p le w h o f e e l t h a t t h e y w e r e d e a l t w i t h u n f a ir l y b e c a u s e
t h e y w e r e s ta n d i n g u p f o r w h a t is r i g h t a n d t h e y w e r e r e s i s t i n g a t t e m p ts
t o d is r e g a r d p r o c e d u r e s , d is r e g a r d t h e la w. I f t h e y fe e l th a t t h e y h a v e
a n i n p u t t o m a k e t h e n t h e y c a n a l w a y s s e n d i n p u ts t o t h e C o m m is s i o n
t h r o u g h t h e s e c r e t a r y a s t o w h a t t h e C o m m is s io n c o u l d c o n s i d e r.
I t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n th a t t h e C o m m i s s io n w il l a g r e e
with them …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is to s a y w h e n th e C o m m i s s i o n g e t s t o c o n s i d e r
m a k i n g r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t c o u l d b e o n e o f – t h e ir s u b m i s s io n s
c o u l d b e - s o m e o f t h e s u b m is s i o n s th a t w o u l d b e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O k a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir t h a t w i ll b e a ll fr o m a ll o u r
s id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

C h a ir th e r e a r e tw o o n a v i a ti o n

s tr e a m s th a t w e c o u l d n o t c a ll l a s t w e e k d u e t o a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s .
20

T h o s e t w o w i t n e s s e s h a v e n o w b e e n p u t o n th e s c h e d u l e fo r n e x t w e e k
– T h u r s d a y a n d Fr id a y – th e 11 t h a n d 1 2 J u ly.
w i t n e s s f o r th is s t r e a m t h is w e e k .

M s M p s h e is a la s t

I b e l ie v e t o m o r r o w a n e w w o r k

s tr e a m w i ll b e le a d i n g i ts e v id e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o I j u s t w a n t e d t o n o t if y y o u t h a t th e r e w i ll

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
b e t w o o t h e r w i tn e s s e s t h a t w e i n t e n d c a lli n g n e x t w e e k o n T h u r s d a y
a n d Fr id a y ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. M s M p s h e t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : C h a ir I w o u l d l ik e to s a y s o m e t h in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p le a s e s a y
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

I w o u ld li k e to s a y C h a ir t h a t t h e

p a i n a n d th e h a r d s h i p t h a t I h a d to e n d u r e a n d m y f a m ily h a d t o e n d u r e
is i m m e a s u r a b l e a n d e a r l i e r o n y o u s a i d it – i t – I w a s s u s p e n d e d w i th
p a y. Ye s b u t i t c a n n o t e v e n m e a s u r e t o t h e p a in a n d th e h a r d s h i p th a t I
10

h a d t o e n d u r e a n d m y f a m il y a n d a l s o m y r e p u t a t i o n is d a m a g e d . I f y o u
g o o g l e m y n a m e r ig h t n o w y o u w il l f i n d a s ta t e m e n t f r o m S A A s a y i n g
t h a t Th u li M p s h e w a s s u s p e n d e d o n a ll e g a ti o n s o f s e r io u s m i s c o n d u c t
a n d it is s ti ll t h e r e .

S o p e o p le l o o k o r p o t e n t i a l e m p lo y e r s l o o k a n d

t h e y lo o k a t t h a t a n d th a t is s t il l t h e r e i n – i n – a n d o u t th e r e i n t h e
p u b lic . T h a t th e r e is t h is w h o le th i n g o f m y r e p u ta t io n c o n t in u o u s l y u p
t o d a t e u p t o r i g h t n o w a s w e s p e a k b e i n g - c o n t in u a l ly b e i n g d a m a g e d
a n d C h a ir I w o u l d a ls o li k e t o h ig h li g h t t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

Does the statement omit to say that they never

p u r s u e d a n y d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g a g a in s t y o u a n d t h a t …
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S u b s e q u e n t to t h a t th e r e w a s n o

formal statement to the media.
CHAIRPERSON: And …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

T h e s t a t e m e n t t o t h e m e d ia i s t h e

o n e th a t a s y o u g o o g le m y n a m e t h a t w i ll c o m e u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

So subsequent there was – there

was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e tr u e – a tr u e – t h e t r u e p ic tu r e m u s t b e p u t –
p u t i n p la c e t o s a y th e l e a s t a n d y e s y o u – y o u w e r e s u s p e n d e d b u t
y o u r d e p a r tu r e a s b y m u t u a l a g r e e m e n t a n d n o d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g w a s
a c t u a ll y c o n v e n e d .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Ye s . T h a t is - th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :
10

S o I w i s h t o h ig h li g h t t h a t a n d t o

s a y t h a t it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s v e r y d i ff ic u l t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d s o m e t i m e s i t is s t il l v e r y – v e r y
d i ff ic u l t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : To t a l k a b o u t a s a fa m i ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d w h e n w e l o o k a t t h o s e t i m e s those periods …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

W e lo o k b a c k a n d w e s a y h o w d id

w e a c t u a ll y s u r v iv e t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : M y k id s s u ff e r e d h u m il ia t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M S H E :

A n d y o u k n o w w h e n it is a ll i n th e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
fr o n t p a g e s t h a t I a m s u s p e n d e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d i t is a ll o n s o c i a l m e d ia …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

A n d t h e r e is a l w a y s a p e r c e p ti o n

t h a t – y o u k n o w – t h e r e a r e t h e s e c i v i l s e r v a n ts w h o a r e lo o ti n g th e
Government.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : S o t h a t n e g a t iv e p e r c e p ti o n …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : O f - o f m e b e in g s u s p e n d e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A ls o s t a y n o lo n g e r w it h m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o t h i s – th is w h o le t h i n g n o o n e

d i d i t – it w a s m e a n t to p u n is h m e b u t d i d n o t p u n is h m e o n ly.

It

p u n is h e d m e a n d m y f a m il y a n d m y e x t e n d e d f a m il y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A n d y o u k n o w t h e – th e p a i n t h a t i t
20

a c t u a ll y p u t o n m y h u s b a n d i s – t h e o n e e v e n i n g h e a r r i v e d h o m e . I w i ll
n o t f o r g e t th e l o o k o f p a i n i n h is e y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : W h e n h e s a id to m e w h y d o y o u n o t
ju s t w a lk a w a y ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : I t is e n o u g h n o w f o r u s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : B e c a u s e w e w o u ld n o t e v e n g o t o a
s o c ia l y o u k n o w p e o p l e w o u l d b e ta lk in g , p e o p le w i ll b e a s k i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : E v e n g o i n g t o th e c h u r c h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : P e o p l e w i ll s ti ll b e a s k i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

So what happened?

A r e y o u s t il l

o n s u s p e n s i o n ? W h a t a c t u a l ly d i d y o u d o ?
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : Yo u k n o w a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

S o i t w a s ju s t t h a t t h i n g t h a t w e

carrying …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : A s – a s a fa m i ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E :

M y m o m w a s s ic k d u r i n g th e ti m e .

S o w h e n I w a s s u s p e n d e d w e t o o k a d e c i s io n n o t to t e ll h e r a b o u t my
s u s p e n s i o n . S o f o r t u n a t e l y fo r m e a s a b l e s s in g d u r i n g th a t ti m e I w a s
a b l e to b e w i t h h e r a n d t a k e h e r t o t h e d o c t o r o r v is i t h e r o r c o m e t o m e
and – and she kept on asking.

Yo u a r e a l w a y s s o b u s y a t w o r k .

h o w c o m e n o w y o u c o m e h e r e r e g u la r ly.

Page 304 of 307

So

01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
Yo u a r e a v a il a b l e a n d I s a i d n o I t o o k l e a v e .
n o r m a l ly w h e n y o u t a k e l e a v e y o u g o a w a y o n h o l id a y.
h a p p e n in g ?

She says
So what is

S o w e d i d n o t t e ll h e r a n d t h e n s h e p a s s e d a w a y i n

March 2017 without knowing that I was suspended.

W i t h o u t k n o w in g

w h a t I w e n t t h r o u g h a n d I w o u ld li k e t o t h a n k t h e C o m m i s s io n th a t t h is
m a t t e r s a r e n o w c o m i n g t o th e f o r e .
T h a t t h e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A fr ic a is n o w b e i n g m a d e a w a r e o f
t h e th i n g s t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d o f s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e
w h is t le b l o w in g s ta n d i n g a g a in s t t h e c o r r u p ti o n a n d – a n d ju s t th e
10

fl a g r a n t d is r e g a r d f o r – f o r t h e r u le o f l a w w h ic h e n d e d u p lo s i n g t h e ir
jo b s , e n d e d u p s u ff e r in g .
To – t o – y o u k n o w y o u w a k e u p o n e m o r n in g s u d d e n ly y o u –
you do not have to go to work anymore and at a premature end of a
c a r e e r i t is o n e o f th e – fo r m e – t h e m o s t t e r r i b le p u n is h m e n t th a t c a n
e v e r b e m e t e d t o a n y o n e b u t I r e a l ly th a n k t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e
g o o d w o r k t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n i s d o in g a n d I tr u s t t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n
w i ll s e e t h r o u g h s o m e o f t h e o u tc o m e s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th a n k y o u M s M p s h e . I t is – I a m q u i te h a p p y t h a t
q u i te a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e fr o m S A A , S A E x p r e s s h a v e c o m e f o r w a r d s

20

w h o – s e n i o r p e o p l e a n d t h o s e w h o w e r e s u s p e n d e d , d i s m is s e d , p u t o n
special

leave,

subjected

to

certain

types

of

mutual

s e t t le m e n t

a g r e e m e n ts w h o b e li e v e th a t th e y w e r e b e i n g v ic t i m is e d f o r s t a n d in g fo r
w h a t i s r i g h t . As I s a y t h a t i s t h e ir s t o r y.
T h e r e m a y b e o t h e r s w h o w il l c o m e a n d s a y n o th is w h o l e
s t o r y o f p e o p l e s t a n d i n g f o r w h a t is r i g h t is n o t r i g h t . Th is is a n o t h e r

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
v e r s i o n . I w il l l is te n t o a l l v e r s io n s a n d I w i ll m a k e a f in d in g a t th e e n d
but I – I am – I am happy that a number of people were senior as SAA
a n d S A E x p r e s s h a v e c o m e f o r w a r d t o s h a r e w i th t h e – w i th t h e
C o m m i s s i o n a n d w i t h t h e n a ti o n t o s a y t h is i s w h a t w e w e n t t h r o u g h
a n d th is is w h a t f r o m o u r v e r s i o n .
T h i s i s w h y w e w e r e s u b je c t e d t o t h i s a n d I h o p e t h a t o t h e r s
w h o m a y u p t o n o w n o t h a v e fe l t fr e e o r c o u r a g e o u s e n o u g h t o c o m e
f o r w a r d fr o m t h r o u g h o u t w o u l d c o m e fo r w a r d b e c a u s e i t m a y w e l l b e
t h a t to t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h i s C o m m i s s i o n fi n d s a t t h e e n d o f i ts w o r k t h a t
10

t h e r e w a s s ta t e c a p t u r e i n S o u t h A fr ic a a n d d id t a k e p l a c e .
I t m a y b e t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i ll b e a b le t o s a y s o m e o f t h e
p e o p l e w h o c o n tr i b u te d t o t h e c o u n tr y n o t r e a c h i n g a c e r t a i n p o i n t o f
s t a te c a p t u r e w e r e c e r t a i n m e n a n d w o m e n w h o w e r e c o u r a g e o u s i n
v a r io u s G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s , i n v a r i o u s p a r a s t a t a ls w h o s t o o d fo r
w h a t i s r i g h t u n d e r v e r y d i ff ic u l t c ir c u m s ta n c e s a n d t h e c o u n tr y s h o u l d
b e g r a te f u l t o t h e m .
T h o s e w h o w i ll c o m e t h e r e m a y b e s o m e o f t h e m t h e
C o m m i s s i o n w il l b e a b le t o s a y th e s e a r e s o m e o f t h e m e n a n d w o m e n
w h o s to o d f o r w h a t w a s r i g h t u n d e r d i ff ic u l t c ir c u m s ta n c e s a n d t h e

20

c o u n tr y s h o u ld b e g r a t e f u l t o t h e m .

I a m v e r y g r a te f u l t h a t m o r e a n d

m o r e o f y o u a r e c o m in g fo r w a r d . A s I s a y I w il l li s te n t o a l l v e r s i o n s
a n d I w il l m a k e fi n d i n g s i n th e e n d b u t I a m h a p p y t h a t y o u h a v e c o m e
forward.
I a m h a p p y th a t o t h e r s fr o m S A A / S A E x p r e s s h a v e c o m e
f o r w a r d a n d o th e r s w h o m ig h t b e in t h e p r iv a te s e c t o r w h o w e r e

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01 JULY 2019 – DAY 124
in v o lv e d m u s t c o m e f o r w a r d a n d t e l l t h e n a ti o n th e t r u t h t o e x a c t ly w h a t
t h e y fo u n d t h e ms e lv e s in v o lv e d i n a n d u n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s a n d
w h y s o t h a t t h e c o u n tr y c a n k n o w th e tr u t h a n d s o th a t w e c a n – t h e
C o m m i s s i o n c a n c o m e u p w i t h r e c o m m e n d a t io n s o n w h a t i t is – w h a t
m e a s u r e s s h o u l d b e p u t i n p l a c e s o th a t p e o p l e n e v e r g o t h r o u g h th is
k in d o f t h in g a n d a ls o s o th a t t h e c o u n t r y n e v e r g e ts s t a t e c a p t u r e
a g a in . S o th in k y o u v e r y m u c h …
M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r c o m i n g f o r w a r d .
10

M S M AT H U LWA N E E M I LY M P S H E : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a n k y o u . W e w il l s t o p t h e n f o r t o d a y. T h is t i m e w e
took much, much longer than I thought we would but I have no regret
that we took long.
happened.

I t w a s i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e s h o u l d h e a r e x a c tl y w h a t

W e w i ll a d j o u r n a n d w e w il l s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k t o m o r r o w

m o r n in g . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 J U LY 2 0 1 9

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