C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 1 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 7 4

20

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E O N 1 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s W e n tz e l , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u w o u l d l ik e m e t o a d jo u r n f o r a
few minutes.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : P u t o n y o u r m i c r o p h o n e . S w i t c h it o n j a .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. C h a i r t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e d e l a y is
t h a t a s y o u n o t ic e d y e s te r d a y i n th e te s t i m o n y d i ffic u lt i e s a r o s e fr o m
10

t h e fa c t th a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s a ffi d a v i t w a s n o t d e p o s e d t o l ik e
R o e lo fs e – C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e ’s w a s in a r e d a c te d f o r m . I t w a s d e p o s e d
t o a n d o n ly a f t e r w a r d s r e d a c t e d .

T h e r e s u lt h a s b e e n t h a t t h e

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h c e r t a i n o f t h e p e r s o n s o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e h a v e b e e n
r e d a c t e d a n d i n – o f i n m a n y, m a n y i n s t a n c e s th e s e n t e n c e s n o l o n g e r
make sense.

Th e r e w e r e a ls o is s u e s t h a t a r o s e d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f

c o n s u l t a ti o n s w i t h C o l o n e l N a i d o o o n S u n d a y w h e r e i t a p p e a r e d th a t
c e r t a i n o f t h e F M n u m b e r s w e r e w r o n g a n d t h e y n e e d e d to b e
c o r r e c t e d . H e h a s d e p o s e d t o a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t t o d e a l w i t h a l l
o f th e s e is s u e s a n d t h e S e c r e t a r i a t i s in t h e p r o c e s s o f I b e li e v e
20

p r e p a r in g a b u n d l e a n d t h e a m e n d e d p a g e s . Th e y ju s t n e e d a l i t tl e b it
m o r e ti m e t o g e t th is i n t o o u r fi le s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . H o w m u c h t i m e d o y o u n e e d ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Um…
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w e s h o u l d ju s t s a y t e n o ’ c l o c k b e c a u s e i f w e

s a y q u a r t e r t o a s w e d is c u s s e d a n d th a t m i g h t b e t o o li t tl e ti m e .

Page 2 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e g iv e y o u e n o u g h t i m e t o g e t e v e r y t h i n g i n

o r d e r b e c a u s e w h e n w e s ta r t I r e a ll y w a n t u s to g e t g o i n g . I w a n t u s to
fi n i s h C o l o n e l N a id o o ’s e v i d e n c e t o d a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s t h a t is v e r y m u c h a p p r e c i a t e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y t h e n w e w il l t a k e a n a d jo u r n m e n t a n d w e

w i ll r e s u m e a t t e n o ’c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y le t u s s ta r t. G o o d m o r n i n g C o l o n e l N a i d o o a r e
you there?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I a m h e r e C h a ir.

Good

m o r n in g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Good morning.

I s a i d t o M s W e n t z e l th is m o r n i n g

e a r l ie r i t is j u s t t h a t I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r y o u w e r e t h e r e to h e a r w h a t
I s a id .

I w o u l d l ik e u s t o t r y a n d fi n i s h y o u r e v i d e n c e to d a y.

So she

w i ll d o t h e n e c e s s a r y fr o m h e r p a r t a n d w e m u s t j u s t t r y a n d f i n is h
t o d a y.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t a lr i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w i ll t r y m y b e s t t o g o a s
fast as possible.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O b v i o u s l y t h a t i s s u b j e c t t o t h e f a c t th a t w e

m u s t n o t d o a n y in ju s tic e to y o u r e v i d e n c e .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . B u t w e – w e d o n o t h a v e a ll t h e t i m e in t h e w o r l d
s o w e h a v e g o t t o m a k e th e b e s t o f t h e t i m e t h a t w e h a v e a n d u s e i t
fr u i t f u l ly.

W e d o n o t w a n t to l e a v e a n y i m p o r t a n t f is s u r e s o f y o u r

e v i d e n c e b u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e w e w a n t to m o v e w i t h s o m e s p e e d .
Okay?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a g r e e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r a s I i n d ic a t e d e a r li e r
10

t h is m o r n in g C o lo n e l N a i d o o h a s d e p o s e d to a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t
w h ic h h a s b e e n m a r k e d Ex h ib i t K K 1 . 2 a n d w il l f o ll o w a f t e r h i s w h a t I
c a l l m a i n a ff i d a v i t o r h i s w it n e s s s t a t e m e n t . I t h in k i t h a s b e e n h a n d e d
t o y o u r R e g is tr a r i f i t c o u l d j u s t b e a d m i t t e d a s a n e x h ib i t a n d p la c e d i n
y o u r fi le ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e s e e . Yo u m u s t p l e a s e g e t s o m e b o d y t o l o o k a t
c e r t a i n p a g e s i n th e b u n d l e w h e r e t h e n u m b e r o f t h e p a g e i n t e r m s o f
p a g in a ti o n is n o t l e g i b l e o r c l e a r a n d h a v e t h o s e s o t h a t y o u c a n h a v e
t h o s e p a g e s r e p l a c e d w i th c o p ie s t h a t w ill m a k e i t c l e a r w h a t t h e p a g e
n u m b e r is .

20

I m e a n s o m e o f t h e m i t mi g h t b e t h a t t h e n u m b e r o f t h e

p a g e s h o u l d b e w r i t te n a l i t tl e h i g h e r u p w h e r e t h e r e is a s p a c e .
Others they just need to complete replacement.

So one struggles to

s e e w h a t t h e n u m b e r o f t h e p a g e i s in r e g a r d to s o m e o f t h e s e .

So

s o m e b o d y c o u l d w o r k o n th a t w h i le y o u a r e b u s y a n d t h e n d u r i n g th e
b r e a k t h a t c a n b e fix e d . I t s e e m s t h a t y o u w a n t th is n e w a ff id a v i t t o b e
– t o c o m e a f t e r p a g e 1 4 0 is t h a t r i g h t ? D i d y o u h e a r m e ? Yo u d i d n o t ?

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I d i d n o t b e c a u s e I w a s b e i n g g iv e n a n

in s t r u c t i o n I a m a fr a id – I a m s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I h a v e p u t i t a f t e r p a g e 1 4 0 I th i n k th a t is

w h e r e y o u w a n t e d i t to b e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s it is w h e r e w e w a n t i t .

Thank you very

m u c h C h a ir. I w il l m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e S e c r e ta r i a t w h o h a s b e e n h e r e i n
c o u r t a t te n d s to th e fa c t t h a t s o m e ti m e s a s i g n a t u r e g o e s o v e r a
p a g in a t e d p a g e a n d i t – a n d i n o th e r i n s ta n c e s w h e r e i t is a n a n n e x u r e
I h a d a l s o f o u n d i t d i ffi c u l t to r e a d w h a t t h e p a g e n u m b e r is a n d w e w i ll
10

m a k e s u r e th a t th a t is s o r t e d o u t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir b e fo r e I c o n t in u e w i t h th e r e m a in d e r o f
C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s e v i d e n c e I s a i d t h a t I w o u l d d o a r e c o n c i li a ti o n
o v e r n i g h t t o w o r k o u t t h e p e r c e n t a g e s p e n t o n th e t w o c r e d i t c a r d s .
C h a ir t h a t e x e r c is e h a s b e e n d o n e a n d in r e s p e c t o f C o lo n e l N a i d o o ’s
credit card 99.99% was spent.
card 83.49% was spent.

I n r e s p e c t o f C o l o n e l B a r n a r d ’s c r e d i t

S o t h e a s s e s s m e n t th a t w e ll o v e r 8 0 % w a s

spent was correct and…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u C h a i r.

C h a ir y e s te r d a y w e w e r e

d e a li n g w i th t h e f a m ily m e m b e r s w h o w e r e a p p o i n t e d a s a g e n t s i n t o
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e – in t o th e a g e n t p r o g r a m a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d
b e f o r e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t w e w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h t h e f a m i ly m e m b e r s o f
Colonel Barnard.

It is a t p a g e 1 9 o f t h e s t a te m e n t p a r a g r a p h 7 3 .

Colonel Naidoo…

Page 5 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON:

Just hang on one second.

T h e p a r ts o f – y o u

r e m e m b e r t h a t w h e n y o u s t a r t e d w i t h C o lo n e l N a i d o o ’s e v i d e n c e y o u
d i d n o t s t a r t a t th e b e g in n i n g .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o v e r e d w h a t c o m e s m u c h la t e r i n h is s t a t e m e n t
n a m e ly t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s u n d e r w h ic h h e w a s p u t o n th e w i t n e s s
p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Fr o m w h a t p a g e t o w h a t p a g e d o e s t h a t g o ?

Where

do we find that part?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t is fr o m p a g e 6 2 C h a ir t h r o u g h t o –

e s s e n ti a l ly t o t h e e n d C h a ir e x c e p t f o r p a g e s 6 8 a n d 6 9 w h ic h w e r e n o t
d e a lt w i t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o w y e s t e r d a y w e w e n t u p t o w h a t p a g e
o f h is s t a t e m e n t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 19.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 19.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t l e a v e s u s w it h a b o u t 3 0 p a g e s t o c o v e r.
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P lu s t h e a n n e x u r e s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a r e a s o n w h y w e s h o u l d t a k e l o n g e r th a n a n
h o u r t o f i n is h te n p a g e s w i t h a n n e x u r e s ? W h a t d o y o u t h i n k ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I t h i n k th a t t h a t is …

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe let us aim for that.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s e e i f – if i t g o e s a l it t le o v e r o r u n d e r t h a t is fi n e
b u t le t u s a i m f o r th a t b e c a u s e – b u t a s lo n g a s w e fi n is h t o d a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i m p o r t a n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W e w il l m a k e e v e r y e ff o r t t o d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C h a ir c e r t a i n a s p e c ts y o u w il l s e e w i ll g o
10

q u ic k e r t h a n o th e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Q u ic k e r y e s y e s . Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B e f o r e I s t a r t C h a ir i f p e r h a p s I c a n g e t

C o l o n e l N a id o o j u s t t o c o n fir m t h a t t h e a ffi d a v it t h a t h a s b e e n p l a c e d
in t o e v i d e n c e a s E x h i b i t K 1 .2 is h is a ff id a v i t a n d th a t h e h a s s ig n e d
t h a t a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e a c o m m i s s io n e r th is m o r n i n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w h y – y o u r e m e m b e r w e s a i d w h a t e v e r w il l b e i n
t h is fi l e w il l b e – w i ll b e – w il l fo r m p a r t o f Ex h ib i t K K 1 . 1 . W e s a i d w e
are doing away with 1.2.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e f o r e t h a t a ffi d a v i t s h o u l d n o t b e a s e p a r a t e

exhibit.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 1.1
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s h o u l d j u s t b e p a r t o f w h a t i s i n E x h i b it .
CHAIRPERSON: 1.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja 1.1.

Page 7 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d o n o t r e fe r t o i t a s E x h i b it K 1 . 2 .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

It is j u s t o n e o f t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it o r

d o c u m e n ts in t h i s e x h ib i t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t a p p e a r s a t

p a g e 1 4 1 a n d e n d s a t p a g e 1 5 4 w i t h y o u r s i g n a tu r e p a g e 1 5 3 i s t h a t
10

y o u r a ff i d a v i t a n d y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is I c o n f ir m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u c o n f ir m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o r r y C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I think both of you…
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t w o u l d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S p o k e v e r y s o ft ly p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r v o i c e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h a t w o u l d b e t o

p a g e 1 4 2 t h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n e w – n e w s u p p l e m e n ta r y – t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y

a ffi d a v i t i t is p a g e w h e r e y o u r n a m e is – w h e r e i t s a y s “ I t h e
u n d e r s ig n e d ” is p a g e 1 4 1 a n d it g o e s u p to p a g e 1 5 3 a n d t h e r e i s a
le t t e r w h ic h I t h i n k is a n a n n e x u r e p a g e 1 5 4 . T h a t i s t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y
a ffi d a v i t t h a t s h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is y o u r a ff id a v i t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir m y
s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r s o n p a g e 1 5 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a o k a y th a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

A n d C h a i r a m e n d m e n ts h a v e m a d e t o

t h e a ff i d a v i t s o th a t i t m a k e s g r a m m a t ic a l s e n s e a n d c o r r e c t c e r t a i n
errors.

C o l o n e l N a i d o o a r e y o u s a ti s fi e d t h a t t h e a m e n d m e n ts m a d e

a r e c o r r e c t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m s a tis i fi e d .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u . N o w C o l o n e l N a i d o o w e a r e g o in g
t o p r o c e e d d e a l in g w i th t h e fa m i ly m e m b e r s o f C o l o n e l B a r n a r d o n p a g e
1 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t p a r a g r a p h 7 3 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I f y o u c o u l d ju s t in d i c a t e to t h e C h a ir w h o

t h o s e f a m ily m e m b e r s w e r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir C o l o n e l B a r n a r d

w a s t h e H e a d o f t h e Pr o c u r e m e n t S e c t i o n o f C I . H i s fa m i ly m e m b e r s
t w o o f h is f a m ily m e m b e r s w e r e a p p o i n t e d w i t h i n th is p r o m o ti o n p r o c e s s
o f t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts . O n e o f h is r e la t iv e s w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a S e r g e a n t o r
20

a W a r r a n t O ffi c e r a n d a n o th e r o f h is r e la t i v e s w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a c l e r k
a t t h e Te c h n ic a l S u p p o r t U n i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n w i th r e g a r d to M a jo r E l s – M a jo r -

G e n e r a l E ls w a s t h e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e G a th e r i n g a t
t h a t s t a g e C h a ir.

Tw o o f h i s f a m il y m e m b e r s w e r e a p p o i n t e d to

Page 9 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
p o s i ti o n s w i t h i n C I .

O n e o r b o th o f th o s e n a m e s I d o n o t k n o w b u t I

k n o w t h a t o n e w a s a p p o in t e d a s a L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l w it h o u t a n y p r i o r
a p p o i n t m e n t in S A P S a n d a n o t h e r w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a C a p ta i n w it h o u t
a n y p r i o r a p p o in t m e n t in t h e S A P S . A n d I t h i n k a s f a r a s I k n o w t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r in d i v i d u a l l e ft t h e p o l ic e o r r e s i g n e d fr o m t h e p o li c e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e n C o lo n e l N a i d o o w i t h r e g a r d t o f o r m e r

Lieutenant General Lala?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

At that stage General

L a l a w a s th e D i v is i o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r o f C I . C h a ir s o r r y n o h e w a s n o t
10

t h e – h e w a s n o t t h e D i v is i o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r h e h a d s u b s e q u e n tly le f t .
I t h i n k h e w a s g o i n g t o D e te c t iv e S e r v ic e s a n d I th in k h e is n o w a t
SARS.

A f a m ily m e m b e r F M 3 7 C h a ir w a s a p p o i n t e d w it h in th is

p r o m o ti o n p r o c e s s . A L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l S t a n d e r w h o w a s s t a ti o n e d a t
I t h i n k a t th a t s ta g e s h e w a s D e p u t y N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o n e o f h e r
r e l a ti v e s w a s a p p o in t e d a t C I H e a d O ffi c e .
p l a c e d w it h in t h e I T s e c t i o n o f C I .

He was appointed and

Br ig a d i e r D r i e n a B e lli n g h a m w a s

h e a d o f th e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s a t C I . H e r r e l a ti v e w a s a p p o i n t e d t o th e
p o s i ti o n f r o m a l o w e r r a n k t o a h ig h e r r a n k o f C o l o n e l . Th is i n fo r m a ti o n
w a s r e l a y e d t o m e b y F M 0 9 C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

The appointment of

p e r s o n s t o C I w i th in c r i m i n a l – w i th – s o r r y – p a r d o n m e C h a ir.

The

a p p o i n t m e n t o f p e r s o n s t o C I w i t h c r i m in a l c o n v ic ti o n s a n d a d d it i o n t o
t h o s e t h a t w e r e a p p o i n t e d a n d p r o m o t e d w it h i n t h i s p r o c e s s t h e r e w e r e
n u m e r o u s in d iv i d u a ls t h a t h a d c r i m i n a l c o n v ic ti o n s C h a ir.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B r i g a d i e r B i ll i n g h a m

w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e p e r s o n t h a t w o u l d h a v e d e a l t w it h t h e s e – w i t h
t h e s e i s s u e s w i t h r e g a r d s t o – i n s o fa r a s r e g a r d s t o t h e c o n d o n a ti o n s
r e g a r d in g th e s e s p e c i f ic i n d i v i d u a ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th e n I g o t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Aha.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u t h e n d e a l w it h t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f
10

F M 4 1 i n to t h e a g e n t p r o g r a m .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w il l . C h a i r F M 4 1 w a s a
C o l o n e l i n C I . T h i s in d iv i d u a l w a s fo u n d g u i lt y C h a ir o f – o f v e h ic le – it
w a s a v e h i c l e r e l a te d fr a u d – I a m n o t s u r e e x a c tly t h e d e ta il s o f i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :
F M 4 1 w a s n e v e r d is c i p l in e d .

But what I can say that

I n s t e a d h e w a s p la c e d w i t h i n th e a g e n t

program as an agent.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

C h a ir fr o m w h a t I

u n d e r s t a n d h e r e m a i n e d w i t h i n t h e a g e n t p r o g r a m u n ti l h e r e t ir e d .

I

b e li e v e th is w a s d o n e p u r e l y t o – t o h i d e h i m s o to s p e a k i n a n a g e n t
p r o g r a m a s a f a v o u r.

I w i ll t e s ti fy t o l a t e r th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n

F M 4 1 a t t h a t s ta g e G e n e r a l o r As s i s t a n t C o m m i s s i o n e r L a l a , A s s is t a n t
Commissioner Mphego and General Lazarus.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Ye s M s W e n tz e l .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o c a n y o u d e a l w i t h th a t

r e l a ti o n s h i p ?
CHAIRPERSON:

C o lo n e l N a i d o o o n e o f th e d i ff ic u l ti e s I u n d e r s t a n d

t h a t M s W e n tz e l h a s is o r b o th o f y o u h a v e is th a t b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t
s e e e a c h o th e r s o m e ti m e s y o u a r e e x p e c t in g h e r t o l e a d a n d s h e is
e x p e c ti n g y o u t o c o n ti n u e a n d b o t h o f y o u d o n o t k n o w a n d t h a t i s w h y
s o m e t i m e s th e r e i s s i le n c e . B u t l e t u s tr y o u r b e s t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a i r I a ls o b e li e v e
t h a t i s w h a t is h a p p e n in g . S o I w i ll a l s o tr y m y b e s t .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja

you

are

never

sure

w h e th e r

to

c o n t in u e

sometimes.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M s W e n t z e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l N a id o o c o u l d y o u d e a l w it h th a t

r e l a ti o n s h i p w h ic h y o u d e a l w i th in p a r a g r a p h 8 1 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
in c i d e n ts .
20

This was around 2006.

C h a i r I r e fe r t o tw o

I was – I was – FM41 was my

c o m m a n d e r a t t h a t s t a g e . L ik e I t e s ti f ie d to e a r l ie r I w a s a d e d ic a t e d
p e r s o n t o g o t o H e a d O ffic e t o – t o te n d t o o p e r a t iv e s ’ a d mi n is tr a tiv e
n e e d s in t e r m s o f t h e ir c l a i m s e tc e te r a . I r e c a l l o n e s u c h i n c i d e n t w h e r e
I w a s g i v e n a c l a i m C h a ir o r r a t h e r a n a d v a n c e fo r R 4 0 0 0 0 .0 0 t h is w a s
f o r a r e c r u it m e n t o f a n a g e n t . I g o t a n i n s t r u c t io n fr o m F M 4 1 .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t l o o k s lik e R 4 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 i s q u i t e a p o p u l a r a m o u n t

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C o l o n e l N a i d o o in C I .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t s e e m s s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
in s t r u c t i o n

fr o m F M 4 1

to

secure

the

I r e m e m b e r g e t t in g

funds

o f R 4 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . Th e

in s t r u c t i o n t h a t I g o t w a s t h a t o f t h e R 4 0 0 0 0 .0 0 R 2 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 I s h o u ld
b r i n g b a c k t o h i m a n d t h e o t h e r R 2 0 0 0 0 .0 0 s h o u l d g o t o A s s is t a n t
C o m m i s s i o n e r L a l a a t th a t s t a g e . C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s th a t a m o u n t f o r ? W h a t w a s th e R 4 0 0 0 0 . 0 0
10

for?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It was for a recruitment

o f a n i n fo r m e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s fo r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

A recruitment of an

in f o r m e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h is w a s r e c r u i t m e n t

f e e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e c r u i t m e n t – r e c r u i t m e n t fe e s ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : O f a n i n fo r m e r y e s t h a t is
correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o w h e n a n in f o r m e r is b e i n g r e c r u i t e d th e r e is a n
a d v a n c e a m o u n t th a t i s p a i d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Correct Chair but it

d e p e n d s o n t h e le v e l o f i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r i n f o r m e r m i g h t –

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
m i g h t h a v e t e n t a ti v e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f w h a t t h e a m o u n t w o u ld b e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t is n o t a s e t a m o u n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t y e s c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B u t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r

in s t a n c e i t w a s R 4 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: But the R40 000.00 was to be split into two?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s n o t a ll g o i n g t o g o t o t h e i n fo r m e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w a s – w e r e t h e r e c o r d s g o in g to r e fl e c t th a t i t

w a s g o i n g – i t w a s a l l g o i n g t o t h e in f o r m e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R 2 0 0 0 0 .0 0 w a s g o i n g t o G e n e r a l L a l a ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o m m is s i o n e r L a l a C h a ir
20

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W a s i t g o in g to h i m fo r h is p e r s o n a l u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m n o t s u r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Or do you not know?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

What it was for but in

t e r m s o f th e – t h e p r o c e d u r e t h e R 4 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 s h o u l d g o to o n e p a r ti c u la r

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
p e r s o n in t h is c a s e it w o u l d b e th e i n f o r m e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Because the records reflected that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e m o m e n t p a r t o f i t w a s n o t g o in g t o th e i n f o r m e r

t h e n th a t m e a n t t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g i r r e g u l a r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. C o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : I r e f e r to a ls o r e m e m b e r
t h e a d v a n c e h o ld e r a t t h a t s t a g e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h e r n a m e b u t I
10

t h i n k – I b e l i e v e s h e is d e c e a s e d .

S h e e n q u ir e d fr o m m e w h y is t h is

h a p p e n in g . T h is is – t o h e r t h is w a s q u it e ir r e g u l a r b e c a u s e i f y o u p u t
in a c l a i m o r a n a d v a n c e f o r a p a r t ic u l a r i n fo r m e r t h a t s p e c i fi c a m o u n t
s h o u l d g o to t h a t p e r s o n . S o w h y is th e a m o u n t is b e in g s p l i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s a s k in g th is q u e s t io n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e a d v a n c e h o ld e r – t h e
a d v a n c e h o l d e r a t t h a t s t a g e . P a r d o n m e C h a ir. T h e a d v a n c e h o l d e r a t
t h e c a s h o ffic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex p la in t h e j o b o f a n a d v a n c e h o l d e r i n t h is s e tu p ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :
20

C h a ir t h i s is e s s e n ti a l ly

lik e I e x p l a i n e d t h e r e w e r e a d v a n c e – a d v a n c e o ff ic e r s w h e r e y o u w o u ld
g o w i t h y o u r – a n d I e x p l a i n e d u s in g th e p e tr o l c la i m o r th e a d v a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh is that the person who processes all requests for
advance payments?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

D o e s t h a t p e r s o n a ls o m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n o r

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
w h e t h e r t o a p p r o v e t h e r e q u e s t fo r a d v a n c e p a y m e n t o r n o t o r d o e s h e
o r s h e s i m p ly c h e c k t h a t th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n is r i g h t a n d t h e n s e n d s i t t o
s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o m a k e s th e d e c is i o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r t h e jo b d e s c r i p ti o n
o f th e a d v a n c e h o l d e r is p u r e ly a d m in is t r a ti v e .

I t is p u r e ly t o – t o

r e c e i v e c l a i m s – a d v a n c e s a n d c a p t u r e i t o n t h e s y s t e m . B e c a u s e t h is
w o u ld h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n a p p r o v e d b y a p a r t ic u l a r c o m m a n d e r o r t h e
in d i v i d u a l’s c o m m a n d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh so the decision would have been made and he or
10

s h e is s i m p ly th e r e to m a k e s u r e th a t th e r e a r e p r o p e r r e c o r d s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

J u s t t o p r o c e s s t h a t p a r ti c u la r c l a i m o r a d v a n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o t h e p a r t ic u l a r a d v a n c e h o l d e r a s k e d o r q u e r i e d
t h is p a r tic u la r c l a i m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I t
was an advance.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w o u l d t h e r e c o r d s n o t t h a t – w o u ld n o t t h e

p a p e r w o r k t h a t s h e h a d s i m p l y – w o u l d i t n o t h a v e s i m p ly r e fl e c t e d th a t
t h e m o n e y w o u l d g o t o th e i n f o r m e r. H o w w o u l d s h e o r h e h a v e k n o w n
20

t h a t p a r t o f i t w o u l d n o t g o t o t h e i n fo r m e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e s t a ff

o ffic e r a t – a t C o m m is s i o n e r L a l a ’s o ffi c e a t t h a t s t a g e m e t m e a t t h e
a d v a n c e o ff ic e . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h e r n a m e i t i s a w h i t e f e m a le . S h e
m e t m e a t t h e a d v a n c e o ff ic e a n d I g a v e h e r R 2 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 in th e
p r e s e n c e o f th e a d v a n c e h o l d e r.

S o t h a t is w h e r e t h e q u e r y c a m e

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
a b o u t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O : A n d I – I h a n d e d o v e r h e
R 2 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 to th is p a r t ic u l a r f e m a le w h o s e n a m e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
a n d t h e o t h e r R 2 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 I t o o k b a c k t o m y o w n o ffi c e a n d h a n d e d i t
o v e r t o F M 4 1 . C h a ir t h is w a s … – I h a n d e d o v e r h e R 2 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 t o t h i s
p a r t ic u l a r f e m a l e w h o s e n a m e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a n d t h e o t h e r
R 2 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 I t o o k b a c k to m y o w n o ffi c e a n d h a n d e d i t o v e r t o F M 4 1 .
C h a ir t h is w a s …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

Th is w a s o n e in c i d e n t .

T h i s w a s r e g a r d in g As s is t a n t C o m m i s s i o n e r M p h e g o – s o r r y L a la .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

T h e o th e r in c i d e n t i t

in v o lv e s C o m m i s s i o n M p h e g o . A t t h a t s ta g e C o m m i s s io n e r M p h e g o w a s
t h e s e c o n d in c h a r g e t o C o m m i s s i o n e r L a l a a t C I . I r e c a l l a n i n c i d e n c e
w h e r e – i n c id e n t w h e r e F M 4 1 t o ld m e t h a t C o m m is s i o n e r M p h e g o is –
h e h a s tr a d e d h is – o n e o f h is v e h ic l e s i n .

I th i n k i t w a s a n I s u z u

b a k k i e a n d th e r e w a s a s h o r t f a l l o n t h e t r a d e - i n .
20

I t h in k t h e a m o u n t

w a s R 1 2 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d h e – h e r e q u e s t e d F M 4 1 to m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o
h a n d t h e m o n e y t o h i m . T h a t is t h e s e c o n d i n c i d e n t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So General Mphego requested FM41?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

To g i v e h i m t h e m o n e y t h a t h e w o u l d u s e t o p a y f o r

t h e s h o r t fa ll ?

Page 17 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : Th e r e w a s a s h o r t fa ll o n
h is v e h ic l e th a t h e w a s t r a d i n g i n C h a i r y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d – a n d w h y w a s h e a s k i n g F M 4 1 f o r th a t

money?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON:

Was FM41 – FM41 was – was not in charge of the

a c c o u n t o f th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t b e c a u s e i t w a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
w h o w a s i n c h a r g e o f t h a t is i t n o t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : Ye s C h a ir. T h is – F M 4 1
10

w a s a c o m m a n d e r o f o n e o f t h e o p e r a t io n a l t e a m s w h e r e I w il l t e s t if y t o
la t e r w h e r e i n f o r m e r f a ls e in f o r m e r r e w a r d w e r e p r o c e s s e d v i a t h is
o ffic e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o F M 4 1 w a s i n c h a r g e o f a n o ff ic e w h ic h w a s –

w h ic h u s e d t o p r o c e s s s o m e o f th e c la i m s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a i r n o t p r o c e s s th e
c la i m s . T h e y w o u l d – t h e y w o u l d p u t i n f a ls e in f o r m e r r e w a r d s . I n t h is
p r o c e s s t h e y w o u l d g e n e r a t e c a s h . T h is w a s d o n e v i a th is o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry just repeat that.

W h a t w o u l d th e y d o t o

g e n e r a te c a s h ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :
in f o r m e r r e w a r d s C h a ir.

T h e y w o u l d p u t in f a ls e

I n o t h e r w o r d s f a ls e in t e l li g e n c e o r b o g u s

in t e l li g e n c e r e p o r ts w o u ld b e g e n e r a t e d t o g e n e r a t e f u n d s v i a t h a t
p r o c e s s . T h i s w a s d o n e v i a F M 4 1 ’s o ff ic e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 18 of 170

H e w a s th e c o m m a n d e r

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
of this operational team at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o th e y w o u ld p u t i n e ff e c t iv e ly fa k e i n t e l li g e n c e

reports?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – o n t h e b a s is o f t h o s e r e p o r ts t h e y o r c e r ta i n

p e o p l e w o u l d b e t h o u g h t t o b e e n t it l e d t o c e r ta i n p a y m e n ts .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f r e w a r d s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: And that is what General Mphego was asking for?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t th a n k y o u . C o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h e r e w a s – I

r e m e m b e r a n o th e r i n c i d e n c e w h e r e F M 4 1 h a d a m e e ti n g a t h e a d o ffic e
a n d h e c a m e b a c k a n d h e w a s q u i t e u p s e t a n d h e d i d n o t m e n ti o n w h ic h
o n e o f – e i th e r i t w a s G e n e r a l L a l a o r G e n e r a l M p h e g o h a d a s k e d h i m
for more funds.

It w a s d u r in g th e m o n th a n d h e s a i d t o m e th e y a r e

g e t t in g R 1 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 i s t h a t n o t e n o u g h ? A n d h e s a id s o m e th i n g to th e
e ffe c t “ v o e ts a k m a n ” s o h e w a s q u i te u p s e t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s th a t n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F M 4 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: FM41?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d w h o h a d a s k e d f o r m o r e m o n e y t h e r e ? Wa s
it G e n e r a l M p h e g o a g a i n ?

Page 19 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : I t w a s o n e o f th e m C h a ir
h e d i d n o t m e n ti o n t h e ir n a m e s h e ju s t s a i d t h e y a r e g e tt i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

One of them asked him

for more money and he was upset.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t t h i s s t a g e r e m e m b e r
t h e y w e r e g e t t in g p a i d m o n t h ly.

I a m n o t s u r e in m y s t a t e m e n t I s a y

R50 to R100 000.00. I am not sure it was R50 000.00 each.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

O r – o r R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0

each.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I am – I cannot be

certain.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

N o w I s e e t h a t i n y o u r s t a te m e n ts q u i te a

n u m b e r o f th e s e m a t te r s y o u d e a l w i th a r e n o t r e fl e c t e d in t e r m s o f
when they happened.

D o y o u h a v e n o r e c o l le c ti o n a s t o w h e n th e s e

events and incidents took place?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I w o r k e d u n d e r

F M 4 1 h e i s my – h e w a s my c o m m a n d e r fr o m 2 0 0 4 t o 2 0 0 6 s o i t w o u l d
h a v e b e e n p r o b a b ly b e t w e e n t h a t ti m e p e r i o d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

Ye s c o n ti n u e .

O r M s W e n tz e l d o y o u

w a n t to t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C o lo n e l N a i d o o w h a t d o y o u b e l i e v e is

Page 20 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
t h e s i g n i fic a n c e o f t h i s r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n F M 4 1 a n d G e n e r a l L a la
and General Mphego?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir l ik e I m e n t io n e d

e a r l ie r F M 4 1 w a s f o u n d g u il t y o n a v e h i c le r e la t e d c h a r g e .
never

d i s c ip li n e d .

I

remember

having

a

He was

d is c u s s io n

w i th

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d h e - a n d h e s a i d t h a t h e w a n ts to h e l p th e o l d
man.
H e h a d a d i s c u s s i o n w i t h - w it h C o m m i s s io n e r M p h e g o a n d
t h e r e w a s - t h e y d e c i d e d th a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o p la c e i n to th e a g e n t
10

program

and

this

is

what

General Lazarus

r e la y e d

to

me.

C o m m i s s i o n e r M p h e g o to l d h i m t h a t I s h o u ld b e h i s h a n d l e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Before you proceed.

Yo u s a y th a t h e w a s n o t

d is c i p l i n e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w e n o u g h a b o u t t h e fa c ts t o b e a b l e t o s a y
w h e t h e r t h i s w a s a m a t t e r w h e r e h e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d is c i p l i n e d ? D o
y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e fr a u d r e l a t e d i n c i d e n t t o w h ic h y o u - y o u t a lk i n
y o u r s t a te m e n t r e l a t e d t o w o r k o r w a s it s o m e t h in g th a t h a p p e n e d
outside of work?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w t h e

f a c ts r e l a t i n g to t h is i n c i d e n t b u t I d o k n o w t h a t h e w a s c o n v ic t e d o f a
v e h ic l e r e l a t e d c r i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I f i t w a s s o m e th i n g th a t d i d n o t - t h a t w a s n o t
w o r k r e l a t e d . Fo r e x a m p le i f h e - b u t y o u - y o u a ls o d o n o t k n o w w h a t
a c t u a ll y h e is a l l e g e d t o h a v e d o n e ?

Page 21 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o t t h e a c t u a l fa c t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is s a i d to b e fr a u d r e l a te d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e if h e w a s c o n v ic t e d o f fr a u d o n e w o u l d

e x p e c t t h a t h e w o u l d n o t b e a ll o w e d to c o n t in u e i n - i n t h e p o l ic e - i n
t h e p o li c e f o r c e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e th e r o r n o t h e w a s c o n v ic t e d o f fr a u d i s t h a t
s o m e t h i n g y o u k n o w fo r s u r e o r is th a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u h e a r d fr o m
10

s o m e b o d y s a y in g h e w a s c o n v ic te d o f fr a u d b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w fo r
s u r e ? W h a t is t h e p o s i t io n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r I c a n n o t s a y fo r

s u r e w h a t - w h e t h e r it w a s w o r k r e l a t e d o r n o t b u t I - I k n o w f o r f a c t
t h a t h e w a s c o n v i c t e d o n a v e h ic l e r e l a te d c h a r g e . I s a y t h is b e c a u s e
o n n u m e r o u s o c c a s io n s F M 4 1 g a v e m e m o n e y. Th e r e w a s a f in e I th i n k
that he had to pay at the court.
I t h i n k i t w a s th e P r e t o r ia C o u r t a n d I - I d i d th is o n n u m e r o u s
o c c a s i o n s . I th in k a t l e a s t o n t h r e e o c c a s i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o y o u k n o w th a t h e - h e w a s c o n v ic t e d o f a c a r
20

r e l a t e d o ff e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d d o y o u k n o w t h a t - d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r

t h a t c a r r e l a t e d o ffe n c e w a s f r a u d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f - i f I c a n r e c a ll i t
w a s - a t th a t s ta g e h e w a s a C o lo n e l .

A t th a t s t a g e r a th e r a S e n i o r

Page 22 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
S u p e r i n te n d e n t . T h e y h a d a p a c k a g e w h e r e t h e y h a d to b u y a v e h ic l e
o r th e o p t i o n o f b u y i n g a v e h i c l e o n t h a t l e v e l .

T h is w a s p a r t o f t h e

package.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t my q u e s t i o n i s w h e t h e r y o u k n o w w h e th e r

t h e c a r r e l a t e d o ff e n c e - w h e t h e r y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e c a r r e la t e d
o ffe n c e o f w h i c h h e w a s c o n v i c te d w a s fr a u d .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I cannot say for sure

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s W e n tz e l I t h i n k s o m e o f th e s e t h in g s s h o u l d
10

h a v e b e e n i n v e s t ig a t e d b y …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h e le g a l t e a m …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Legal team, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I c a n - I c a n s e e t h is .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, because …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a p p r e c i a te it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w i f p e o p le h a v e b e e n in v o lv e d in w r o n g d o i n g
b y a l l m e a n s p e o p l e w h o h a v e g o t p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e o f t h a t m u s t g iv e

20

e v i d e n c e a n d - a n d s a y t h a t is s o w h e n t h e y k n o w - th e y - t h e y k n o w
t h e f a c ts y o u k n o w b u t t h is is a f o r u m w h e r e y o u k n o w t h e p u b lic is
lis t e n i n g .
T h e p r o c e e d i n g s g o o n t e l e v is i o n a n d r a d i o a n d p e o p l e ’s
n a m e s a r e m e n ti o n e d . I t is i m p o r t a n t th a t b e f o r e n a m e s a r e m e n ti o n e d
things be checked …

Page 23 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o p e r ly b e c a u s e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a p p r e c i a te t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o b o d y - w e - w e s h o u ld n e v e r d o a n y t h in g to

a n y b o d y t h a t w e w o u l d n o t li k e t o b e d o n e to u s .

If people have got

in f o r m a ti o n , t h e y k n o w t h e fa c t s . By a l l m e a n s - b u t w e y o u k n o w th e
le g a l t e a m a n d t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s m u s t j u s t b e c a r e f u l t h a t b e f o r e a
w i t n e s s ta k e s t h e s t a n d y o u k n o w.
S o m e b o d y h a s c h e c k e d p r o p e r ly a n d a d v is e d t h e - t h e
10

w i t n e s s a b o u t c e r ta i n t h in g s y o u k n o w.

Yo u n e e d t o b e c a r e f u l a b o u t

that.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I - I a p p r e c i a te i t C h a ir. I th in k th a t it is - i t is
a b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: That …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D u r in g th e c o u r s e o f th e e v i d e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

Th i n g s t h a t w e r e - w e r e t a k e n a s f a c t h a v e

b e e n f o u n d t o b e n o t fa c t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th a t i s a v e r y s e r i o u s d i ff ic u l t y a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I - I have - have spoken to Colonel Naidoo

a b o u t c o n f ir m in g …

Page 24 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O n ly t h i n g s t h a t h e a c t u a ll y k n o w s a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o t m a t te r s t h a t h e d o e s n o t k n o w a b o u t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o i f h e k n o w s t h a t t h a t is tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th e r e is n o d i ffi c u l ty w i th t e s t i fy i n g a s t o t h a t
…
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t i f h e d o e s n o t k n o w t h a t to b e t r u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e n h e s h o u l d n o t t e s t if y t o th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y.

Yo u

understand

my

concern

Colonel Naidoo?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I d o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So - so where - where we are not sure let us

s t a y a w a y fr o m m a k i n g s ta t e m e n ts t h a t c o u l d u n f a ir ly t a r n is h p e o p le ’s
n a m e s w h e n w e d o n o t h a v e t h e f a c ts o r w e a r e n o t s u r e . O k a y.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w il l d o s o s u r e . I w il l I w il l s ti c k to t h e p o i n ts w h e r e I h a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
in t e r a c ti o n s a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 25 of 170

Personal

-

personal

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I k n o w o f i t p e r s o n a ll y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d - a n d y o u r s t a t e m e n t h a s g o t q u i t e a l o t o f

in f o r m a ti o n w h e r e y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e .

Yo u a lr e a d y h a v e

t e s ti fi e d o v e r - I m e a n y e s t e r d a y a n d o n F r id a y t h e r e a r e lo ts o f e v e n ts
w h e r e y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e a n d t h a t is - t h a t is a p p r e c i a te d . I t
is j u s t t h a t u n f o r t u n a t e ly th e r e h a v e b e e n o t h e r a r e a s w h e r e t h a t h a s
n o t b e e n th e c a s e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I

w i ll - I w il l g o th r o u g h a s - a s w e s p e a k .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I w i ll g o th r o u g h t h e

in c i d e n ts w h e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t is n o t v e r y c l e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W h e r e it i s h e a r s a y a n d I
w i ll s t ic k t o - t o th e i n c i d e n ts w h e r e I h a d p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

O f i n fo r m a ti o n o r o n t h e

f a c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o t h a n k y o u . L e t u s c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C o l o n e l N a id o o .

Colonel Naidoo

could you then deal with the appointment of FM42 and FM44 as
in f o r m a n ts ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 26 of 170

C h a ir F M 4 2 w a s - is a

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
r e l a ti v e o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . H e w a s a p o lic e m a n s ta t io n e d a t To n g a a t
u n t il h e w a s f o u n d g u i l ty o f c o r r u p t i o n a n d d i s m is s e d fr o m t h e S A P S .
H e w a s r e c r u i te d a s a n i n f o r m e r b y C I C h a ir a n d p a i d R 5 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 a
m o n th . T h i s w a s t o l d to m e b y F M 0 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t - a n d t h a t - t h a t c o n v i c t i o n is s o m e t h i n g y o u
know about?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Ye s . C o n t in u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

r e l a ti v e o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .

F M44 was also - also a

W a s t a k e n u p a s a n i n fo r m e r.

This was

n o t t o l d t o m e d ir e c t ly C h a i r b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t
I h a d w i t h F M 3 4 I - I p ic k e d u p t h a t t h i s p a r ti c u la r p e r s o n w a s r e c r u i t e d
a s a n in f o r m e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Colonel Naidoo if we can now deal with what
a c ti v i ti e s th e - I a m g o i n g t o l o o s e ly r e f e r t o a s t h e M d lu li a g e n t s w e r e
in v o lv e d in . Yo u w i ll s e e i n p a r a g r a p h 8 7 …
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u s e t o u t a g a i n w h o th e s e a g e n ts w e r e a n d
ju s t a s a r e c a p i f y o u c o u l d j u s t t e s t i fy a s t o w h o t h e y w e r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I a m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l a r e y o u s k i p p i n g

paragraph 86? That seems important or has it been covered?

Page 27 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

I t - it w i ll b e c o v e r e d a n d C h a ir I

a p p r e c ia t e i t . I c a n s e e t h a t is i m p o r t a n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w o u l d li k e h i m t o d e a l w i t h i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u ld y o u p l e a s e d e a l fi r s t

w i t h w h a t y o u r in v o lv e m e n t w a s w i t h t h e h a n d li n g o f a g e n t s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r a s I p r e v io u s ly -

p r e v i o u s ly te s t i fi e d t o th a t I w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e a p p o i n te d a g e n t t o
10

h a n d l e t h e s e o r r a t h e r t h e h a n d l e r to - t o h a n d le t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r
a g e n ts .

I

refer

to

the

-

to

the

incident

that

happened

at

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ffic e b e t w e e n h i m s e l f a n d G e n e r a l M d l u li .
I w a s e v e n t u a l ly t a s k e d w i th h a n d li n g c la i m s f o r th e - f o r t h e
s e v e n o f t h e s o c a ll e d M d lu li f a m i ly - s e v e n a g e n t s a l t h o u g h t w o I
c a n n o t c o n fi r m t h a t t h e y w e r e - t h e y w e r e f a m il y b u t w e i n c l u d e d t h e m
a s w i t h i n t h e M d l u li fa m i ly - s e v e n i n t o t a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I

was

ta s k e d

with

h a n d l in g t h e c l a i m s f o r s a la r i e s , t h e i r v e h ic l e s e tc e t e r a . A ls o m e d i c a l
20

c la i m s . I f I c a n j u s t f o r th e r e c o r d C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : P o i n t o u t t h a t i t w a s F M t h e s e a r e th e s e v e n i n d iv id u a l s :

FM24, FM29, FM26, FM28, FM27,

FM25 and FM30.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 28 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And is it correct that FM25 and FM30 are also
in c l u d e d w h o y o u a r e n o t s u r e i f t h e y a r e a c tu a lly f a m il y m e m b e r s . Is
t h a t r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C a n y o u n o w d e a l w it h w h a t i s s ta t e d i n

p a r a g r a p h 8 8 w it h r e g a r d to F M 2 4 , F M 2 9 , F M 2 5 a n d F M 3 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

th e s e

four

in d i v i d u a ls w e r e a p p o i n t e d w i th in t h e C y b e r C r i m e U n it o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e .
10

A t th a t s t a g e th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o o p e r a t e o r r a th e r

t h e y r e p o r t e d t o C o l o n e l B e a u n a r d G r o b l e r.

He was in charge of the

C y b e r C r i m e U n i t a t th a t s t a g e .
C h a ir li k e I m e n ti o n e d t h e - I h a n d e d t h e - t h e a d m in is tr a ti o n
- the - the admin of these agents.

O p e r a ti o n a lly I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t

t h e y - w h a t th e y d i d i n t e r m s o f t h e ir j o b d e s c r i p ti o n . A l l I k n o w is th a t
t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d w it h in t h is u n i t . S o a s fa r a s I k n o w o p e r a t io n a l ly
I d i d n o t - I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t - w h a t t h e ir d u t ie s e n t a i le d o r w h a t t h e y
a c t u a ll y d i d b u t I d i d k e e p a - a f il e f o r e a c h o n e o f t h e m i n t e r m s o f
t h e ir a d m i n i s t r a t io n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

A n d c o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d

w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e in t e r n e t c a f é ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

th e s e

four

in d i v i d u a ls - in d iv i d u a ls l ik e I m e n t io n e d i n p o i n t 8 8 t h e y w e r e
s u p p o s e d t o r u n a c o v e r t i n te r n e t c a fé . I w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r s e t ti n g u p
t h is p a r t ic u l a r fr o n t c o m p a n y s o t o s p e a k .

Chair if I recall correct -

c o r r e c t ly t h e - th e a m o u n t t o s e t u p t h e - t h e in t e r n e t c a fé w a s a b o u t

Page 29 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
R 7 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 b u t I c a n c o n f ir m i f t h e d o c u m e n t s a r e s h o w n to m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, yes.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s t h e ir l e v e l o f c o m p u t e r s k il ls ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I d o n o t t h i n k th e y
- t h e y h a d a p a r t ic u l a r le v e l o f - o f - t h e i r - t h e ir k n o w l e d g e o f c o m p u t e r
s k i lls I t h i n k w a s v e r y b a s ic . I s a y t h is b e c a u s e t h e y - t h e y w e n t f o r a f o r a tr a i n in g c o u r s e r e g a r d i n g c o m p u t e r s w h ic h w a s A P l u s . I t h i n k it
w a s v e r y b a s ic . T h i s w a s p a i d f o r o u t o f t h e S S A .
I t h i n k it w a s R 2 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 fo r th e f o u r o f t h e m C h a ir.
10

T h is

p a r t ic u l a r u n it w h e r e t h e y w e r e b a s e d is t h e C y b e r C r i m e U n i t C h a ir. I
b e li e v e t h a t t h e y s h o u l d h a v e s o m e s o r t o f e x p e r i e n c e o r e x p e r ti s e to
w o r k w i t h i n t h is e n v ir o n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y d id n o t h a v e i t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I d o n o t b e li e v e t h e y d i d
C h a ir b e c a u s e t h is c o m p u te r c o u r s e t h a t th e y w e n t fo r w a s q u i te b a s i c .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d c o u l d y o u t h e n d e a l w i th F M 2 6 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r F M 2 6 w a s a ls o p a r t
o f t h is s e v e n a g e n t s t h a t I h a n d l e d - o n e p e r s o n - o n e i n d iv id u a l o f th e

20

seven.

H e w a s a ls o a p p o in t e d w it h in th e C y b e r C r i m e U n i t u n d e r t h e

c o m m a n d o f C o l o n e l B e a u n a r d G r o b l e r. C h a ir l ik e I m e n ti o n e d w i t h t h e
o th e r i n d i v i d u a ls I o n l y h a n d le d t h e - t h e a d m in r e g a r d i n g t h e a g e n ts .
I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t h e y d i d o p e r a ti o n a l ly.

T h i s p a r t ic u l a r

in d i v i d u a l o n n u m e r o u s o c c a s i o n s h e d i d n o t r e p o r t t o w o r k C h a ir. I - I
remember

receiving

a

call

fr o m

h is

commander

Page 30 of 170

C o lo n e l G r o b l e r

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
in q u ir in g w h e r e t h i s p a r tic u l a r i n d i v i d u a l w a s . A t t h a t s t a g e I d i d n o t
e v e n k n o w w h e r e h e w a s m y s e lf .
I b r o u g h t t h is t o t h e a tt e n ti o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d I d o n o t
k n o w i f t h i s p a r t ic u l a r i n d iv i d u a l w a s e v e r d is c i p l i n e d fo r t h i s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d y o u d e a l w i t h h is p e tr o l c l a i m s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
d u t ie s w a s t o d e a l w i th p e t r o l c la i ms .

Ye s I d i d .

One of my

On numerous occasions when

c o m p il in g h is c l a i m s I w o u l d s e e t h a t a p e t r o l o r p e tr o l s li p s w o u l d h a v e
b e e n o r r a t h e r fr o m t h e p e tr o l s li p s I - I w o u l d s e e th a t h e tr a v e l le d t o
10

M p u m a la n g a .
T h a t is a n o th e r p r o v i n c e fr o m w h e r e h e w a s b a s e d C h a ir.
B e f o r e h e l e f t t h e p r o v i n c e h e s h o u l d h a v e g o t th e p r i o r - p r i o r
p e r m is s io n t o l e a v e w h i c h w a s n o t d o n e .

T h is h a p p e n e d o n m u lt i p l e

o c c a s i o n s C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d a s I t e s ti f ie d t o o I

b r o u g h t a ll o f th e s e t h i n g s to t h e a t t e n t io n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d I a m
n o t s u r e w h a t h a p p e n e d to h i m a n d h e w o u ld b e a w a y fr o m w o r k f o r
extended periods.
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h e r e d i d h is fa m il y r e s i d e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I k n o w h i s f a m i ly r e s i d e d
o r h is e x t e n d e d f a m il y r e s i d e d i n M p u m a la n g a .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u t h e n d e a l w i th F M 2 8 a n d F M 2 7 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

F M 2 7 w o r k e d fr o m a c o v e r t p r e mi s e s i n J o h a n n e s b u r g .

Page 31 of 170

FM28 and
C h a i r t h is -

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
t h e s e t w o i n d iv i d u a ls w e r e s u p p o s e d ly r e p o r t o r s u p p o s e d to r e p o r t t o
Colonel Barnard under the loss managem ent.

C h a i r i f I c a n j u s t g iv e

y o u s o m e i n s ig h t .
T h e l o s s m a n a g e m e n t a lr e a d y h a d a l o s s - lo s s o r r a th e r
C o m p a n y X a lr e a d y h a d a L o s s M a n a g e m e n t S e c ti o n a t t h e ir o ff ic e .
T h i s w a s b a s ic a l ly c r e a t e d a n o t h e r - a n o t h e r o ffic e - a c o v e r t o ff ic e w a s
c r e a te d t o p r o v id e - t o p r o v i d e e m p l o y m e n t fo r th e s e t w o i n d i v i d u a ls .
S o th e r e w a s a c t u a ll y n o n e e d fo r t h i s o ff i c e b e c a u s e t h e - i t is a c tu a lly
a p a r a l le l s tr u c t u r e t o w h a t w a s a l r e a d y i n p l a c e .
S o t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r t h is - s o t h is - f o r t h is o ff ic e C h a ir.

10

S o i n m y v i e w t h i s o ffi c e w a s c r e a t e d j u s t t o c r e a t e e m p l o y m e n t f o r
t h e s e t w o in d iv i d u a ls - F M 2 8 a n d F M 2 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a id o o w h o w a s t h e h e a d o f C o m p a n y
X?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m n o t s u r e b u t I k n o w
t h e - th e r e - t h e r e is m u l t ip le d ir e c to r s . I a m n o t s u r e w h o t h e y a r e b u t
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a s th e C F O o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n o n e o f t h o s e d ir e c t o r s .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And Colonel Barnard?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Colonel Barnard was the

h e a d o f - o f t h e Pr o c u r e m e n t S e c t io n w h e r e c o m p a n y o r r a t h e r th e
P r o c u r e m e n t S e c ti o n w h e r e C o m p a n y X w a s s i t u a t e d .

So I would

a s s u m e t h a t h e w o u l d a ls o b e o n e o f th e d i r e c t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t C o m p a n y X w h ic h w a s

Page 32 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
p r o v i d in g a lo t o f s e r v ic e s to C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e h a d …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d a s i ts d ir e c t o r s h a d s o m e o f th e p e o p le a t C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e a s i ts d ir e c t o r s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u n a m e i n p a r ti c u la r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d

Colonel Barnard. Is that right?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u - y o u k n o w t h is f o r s u r e ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e y w e r e d ir e c t o r s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
for sure.

C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w t h i s

I - I know that general - this was a set up as a normal

company Chair …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
c o m p a n y.

But

it

was

a

fr o n t

S o i t h a d t o o p e r a t e l ik e a n o r m a l c o m p a n y w o u l d - w o u ld .

S o i t w a s - i t w a s a fr o n t c o m p a n y o f C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e .

So I am

assuming that …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o n o w I - n o w I u n d e r s t a n d .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s - i t w a s in e ff e c t a p a r a s t a t a l?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e o r s o m e m e m b e r s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 33 of 170

Th e - t h e

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Es p e c ia ll y

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s b e in g t h e C F O o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. They - they …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W o u l d b e a d ir e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d to b e d i r e c t o r s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. N o . Th e n - t h e n I u n d e r s t a n d . S o i t w a s
n o t a p r iv a t e c o m p a n y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. N o t a t a l l.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e r e w e r e n o d ir e c t o r s i n v o lv e d i n it w h o w e r e

n o t p a r t o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ? W h e r e t h e r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l t h e d ir e c t o r s w e r e p a r t o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n I u n d e r s ta n d . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u ld y o u

please now deal with FM28 and FM27?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

on

numerous

o c c a s i o n s I h a d to d e a l w i t h F M 2 8 a n d F M 2 7 r e g a r d in g t h e p a y m e n t o f
20

s a l a r i e s r e c o n c ili n g t h e ir p e tr o l c l a i m s o r ju s t t o - to v i s i t t h e m a t t h e
o ffic e . O n n u m e r o u s o c c a s i o n s o r m o s t o f t h e o c c a s i o n s t h e y w o u ld n o t
b e in t h e o ffi c e C h a ir.
T h e y w o u l d e i t h e r b e a t h o m e o r th e y w o u l d b e a t t h e m a ll
s h o p p in g .

I k n o w t h is b e c a u s e w h e n I w o u l d p h o n e t h e m t h e y w o u l d

t e ll m e t h e y a r e a t t h e m a l l o r t h e y a r e a t h o m e . I t w a s v e r y r a r e ly th a t

Page 34 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
I fo u n d t h e m a t t h e o ffi c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

And these were - there were some of the seven

m e m b e r s o f th e M d lu li f a m ily ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Tw o - t w o o f - t w o o f

them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e w e r e - j a , t h e s e w e r e t w o o f th e s e v e n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s .

Th a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u w e r e h a n d l in g ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. S o y o u s a y m o s t o f t h e ti m e w h e n y o u
p h o n e d t h e m t h e y w o u ld e i t h e r b e a t h o m e o r t h e y w o u ld b e a t m a l ls ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A s t h e r e h a n d le r w e r e y o u n o t s u p p o s e d to

k n o w w h a t w o r k t h e y w e r e d o in g i n t e r m s o f t h e ir d a ily a c ti v i t ie s - w o r k
a c ti v i ti e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w a s t h a t t h e r o l e o f t h e ir c o m m a n d e r if t h e r e w a s
a commander?
20

I heard you refer to a commander for some of the

p e o p l e e a r li e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i n a

normal -

n o r m a l s i tu a ti o n a h a n d l e r w o u l d - w o u l d h a n d l e t h e a g e n ts in te r ms o f
t h e a d m i n i s t r a t io n a n d th e o p e r a t i o n a l . S o y o u h a v e a n a d m i n is tr a t i o n
fi le a n d a n o p e r a t io n a l f il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 35 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
fi le s b u t it w o u l d b e w i t h t h e h a n d le r.

These are two separate
I n t h is c a s e C h a ir l ik e I

m e n ti o n e d I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t th e y d i d o p e r a ti o n a ll y e x c e p t th a t I
h a n d l e d t h e ir - t h e ir p e tr o l c l a i m s a n d t h e ir m e d i c a l a n d - a n d t h e
p a y m e n t o f t h e i r s a l a r i e s . S o th e fu n c t io n w a s a c t u a l ly s p l i t .
S o o p e r a ti o n a ll y I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t h e y d i d e x c e p t t o p a y
t h e ir s a l a r ie s a n d t h e ir - t h e ir m e d i c a l a n d p e tr o l c l a i m s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o o r d in a r il y a h a n d l e r s h o u l d k n o w w h a t o n a d a il y

b a s is t h e a g e n ts t h e y a r e h a n d l in g a r e d o i n g ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o in t h a t w a y w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y - w o u ld i t b e
c o r r e c t t o s a y i n t h a t w a y a h a n d l e r c a n b e s e e n a s th e ir s u p e r v is o r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u s a y in t h is c a s e y o u h a n d l e d t h e

a d m i n is tr a t iv e s id e o f t h i n g s o n ly a n d t h a t n o t t h e o p e r a ti o n a l s id e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d i d n o t - y o u d o n o t k n o w w h o w a s h a n d l in g
t h e o p e r a ti o n a l s id e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

L ik e - l ik e I s a id C h a i r

t h e fo u r i n d iv i d u a l s a s I p r e v io u s ly - p r e v io u s l y t e s ti f i e d to - r e p o r t e d to
C o l o n e l B e a u n a r d G r o b l e r. F M 2 8 a n d F M 2 7 t h e y w e r e p la c e d w i t h t h e
Loss

Management

but

or

rather

Colonel Barnard

p r o c u r e m e n t w h ic h L o s s M a n a g e m e n t f e ll u n d e r.
k n o w w h a t t h e y d id C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .

Page 36 of 170

was

head

of

S o I r e a l ly d o n o t

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : L ik e I s a id t h i s - t h i s w a s
a

p a r a l le l

s tr u c tu r e

that

was

created

b a s ic a l ly

fo r

-

for

t h e ir

e m p l o y m e n t b u t t h e y d id n o t t h i n g a t th a t o ffi c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a id o o y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 9 5 p a g e
2 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t th a t F M 2 4 , F M 2 5 , F M 2 9 a n d F M 2 8 r e c e iv e d
a d v a n c e s o n t h e ir m o n t h ly s a la r y. C o u l d y o u ju s t d e a l w i t h t h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

These four

in d i v i d u a ls w h e n th e y p la c e d w i t h i n t h e ( in d is ti n c t) P r o g r a m .
10

They

w e r e n o t g e t t in g th e - t h e s a la r y t h a t t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d o n .
b a s ic a lly t h e r e w a s a s h o r t f a l l o n t h e ir s a la r y.

So

S o I to o k a d v a n c e s to

c o v e r t h e s h o r t fa ll a n d o n c e t h e y g o t t h e - th e a c t u a l s a l a r y t h a t th e y
were appointed on - the level - those advances would be paid back.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o w a s t h is ju s t a t e m p o r a r y m e a s u r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It was.

I th i n k i t w a s

a b o u t - f o r a b o u t th r e e o r f o u r m o n t h s u n ti l th e i r - t h e ir a c t u a l
p r o m o ti o n s w e r e - w e r e c a p tu r e d o n th e s y s t e m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w h a v i n g d e a l t w it h th e e x p e n d i tu r e o f t h e
M d lu li a g e n ts p a y i n g s a l a r ie s , c e ll p h o n e s , h ir i n g p r e m i s e s , s e t ti n g u p a
20

fr o n t c o m p a n y, v e h ic le s e tc e t e r a . H o w m u c h d o y o u b e li e v e d u r in g t h e
p e r i o d t h a t y o u w e r e th e ir h a n d l e r w a s s p e n t o n t h e s e a g e n t s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair

I

b e li e v e

e x c e e d e d R 5 m il li o n b u t o b v i o u s l y th is is ju s t a n e s ti m a t e .

it

I can

c o n fir m i f a ll th e d o c u m e n ts r e g a r d in g th e s e s e v e r a l a g e n t s a r e s h o w n
to me.

Page 37 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON: What was the amount you gave?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F iv e m i ll io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O v e r w h a t p e r io d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h i s w a s - fr o m 2 0 1 0

fr o m t h e i n c e p ti o n o f t h e ir - o f t h e ir b e i n g e m p l o y e d a s a g e n ts t o
a r o u n d 2 0 11 . T h a t is w h e n I w e n t t o w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n C h a ir. S o f r o m
M a r c h 2 0 1 0 to a r o u n d O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .

10

CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t r e la t e d to a l l t h e p e o p le th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n

evidence

who

about

were

e it h e r

f a mi ly

members

or

fr ie n d s

of

G e n e r a l M d l u l i o r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d M a r i m u th u a n d I t h in k o n e o t h e r
p e r s o n - C o lo n e l B a r n a r d - o r d o e s th a t r e l a te s i m p ly t o t h o s e a g e n t s
w h o w e r e f a m ily m e m b e r s o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d / o r h is fr ie n d s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair this would be the

s e v e n - t h e s e v e n m e m b e r s a s I r e g a r d i t t o - I e x p l a in e d o f th e M d lu li
f a m ily - s e v e n m e m b e r s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w fr o m w h e n th e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d w h ic h w a s
sometime in 2010 you said. Is that right?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f th e y e a r ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e

fir s t - t h e f ir s t p a r t o f th e y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t p a r t o f t h e y e a r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 38 of 170

P r o b a b ly

in

the

fir s t

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
q u a r t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

To w h e n y o u le f t w h ic h w a s w h e n y o u w e n t in t o t h e

w i t n e s s p r o g r a m w h i c h w a s O c t o b e r 2 0 11 . Is th a t r i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t is a b o u t a y e a r a n d a h a lf ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s a y t h a t w h a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e m u s t h a v e

s p e n t o n t h e m m u s t h a v e b e e n i n t h e r e g i o n o f R 5 m i ll io n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Do you include in that amount the salaries paid to

t h e m a n d w h a te v e r o th e r c l a i m s th e y m a y h a v e m a d e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h i s - th is w o u l d

in c l u d e t h e ir s a l a r i e s , t h e ir m e d ic a l b i lls , t h e v e h ic le s t h a t w a s
p u r c h a s e d f o r t h e m , t h e h i r i n g o f s a f e h o u s e s , s e t t in g u p o f s a f e
h o u s e s ja .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t is y o u r r e c o l le c ti o n o f w h a t t h e y w e r e p a i d i n

t e r m s o f th e i r b a s ic s a l a r y p e r m o n t h m o r e o r - a v e r a g e …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I - I …
CHAIRPERSON: The seven?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I cannot say for sure

b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e - t h e y w e r e e m p l o y e d o n d i ffe r e n t l e v e l s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o i t …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t w o u l d b e y o u r e s ti m a t e o f w h a t t h e – w h a t

C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e s p e n t o n t h e ir g r o s s r e m u n e r a t io n p e r m o n t h m o r e o r

Page 39 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
le s s w h e n t h e y s t a r t e d in 2 0 1 0 , i f y o u ta k e a ll t h e s e v e n , d o y o u h a v e
s o m e id e a , I a c c e p t th a t i t w i ll n o t b e t h e e x a c t a m o u n t b u t s o m e
e s ti m a t e , d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r a l l s e v e n p u t t o g e t h e r m a y h a v e b e e n
e a r n in g s o m e t h i n g i n t h e r e g io n o f R 3 0 0 0 0 0 p e r m o n t h in t e r m s o f w h a t
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e w a s p a y in g to t h e m , c o l l e c ti v e ly p e r m o n t h i n 2 0 1 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r I c a n n o t s a y fo r

s u r e t h e e x a c t o r m o r e o r le s s th e fi g u r e , b u t w h a t I c a n s a y i s o n e w a s
a C o lo n e l , o n e a L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l , a W a r r a n t O ff ic e r, o n e a C a p t a i n ,
o n e w a s a S e r g e a n t , I c a n n o t s a y f o r s u r e , I w il l h a v e to . . .[ i n te r v e n e s ]
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w o u l d y o u b e a b l e t o s a y b e a r i n g in m in d th e

d i ff e r e n t l e v e ls a t w h ic h d i ffe r e n t m e m b e r s o f t h e s e v e n w e r e a p p o in t e d
a n d y o u h a v e j u s t m e n ti o n e d s o m e o f t h e l e v e ls .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A n d b e a r i n g in m i n d t h a t s o m e w e r e a t m u c h lo w e r

le v e ls , w o u l d y o u b e a b l e t o i n d ic a te w h a t t h e m in i m u m m u s t h a v e b e e n
in t e r m s o f th e g r o s s r e m u n e r a ti o n t h a t C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e w a s p a y i n g
t o th e m , f o r e x a m p l e c o u l d it h a v e b e e n a m i n i m u m o f – w h e n I s a y
g r o s s I m e a n b e f o r e ta x .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : C o u l d i t h a v e b e e n l e s s t h a n R 2 0 0 0 0 0 p e r m o n th ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I t h i n k it w o u l d

h a v e b e e n m o r e th a n R 2 0 0 0 0 0 p e r m o n t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d h a v e b e e n m o r e t h a n R 2 0 0 0 0 0 a m o n th ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s , if I a m lo o k i n g a t

t h e s e v e n i n d i v i d u a ls a n d if I a m j u s t g l a n c in g a t th e i r l e v e l s , I t h i n k i t

Page 40 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
w o u ld b e m o r e t h a n t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o o f c o u r s e if a s s u m i n g R 2 0 0 0 0 0 w o u l d b e

the bare minimum.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w o u l d s a y s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n o v e r t e n m o n th s , I m e a n o v e r f iv e m o n th s t h a t

w o u ld b e a m i ll io n a n d t h e n o v e r t e n m o n t h s t h a t w o u l d b e t w o m i ll io n ,
if y o u a r e l o o k i n g a t a b o u t o n e a n d a h a l f y e a r s , s o y o u c o u l d b e
lo o k in g – y o u r e s ti m a t e o f f iv e m il li o n m ig h t n o t b e t o o fa r fr o m t h e
amount?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I n d e e d C h a ir, y o u a l s o

h a v e t o a d d t o th a t fiv e m il li o n t h e v e h ic le s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

The procurement of safe

houses.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o fi v e m i ll io n m i g h t b e c o n s e r v a ti v e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I

think

it

is

a

fair

r e fl e c t io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a f a i r r e f le c t i o n .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C o lo n e l N a i d o o i n

p a r a g r a p h 9 8 y o u s t a te th a t G e n e r a l S i b i y a w h o w a s t h e n t h e H e a d o f
the

Hawks

was

appointed

to

p r o m o ti o n s a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .

i n v e s t ig a te

these

250

p o s ts

and

D id y o u h a v e a d is c u s s i o n w i th

General Lazarus about this?

Page 41 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

yes

I

d i d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b e f o r e t h a t is n ’ t G e n e r a l – is n ’t G e n e r a l S ib iy a

t h e o n e w h o i s h e a d o f t h e H a w k s n o w.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s y o u a r e c o r r e c t i t is r e fl e c t e d t h e c u r r e n t

head.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s i t ’s c o r r e c t , I mi s r e a d

A r e n ’ t w e ta lk in g a b o u t m u c h e a r l ie r, w h e n p r o b a b ly

s o m e b o d y e l s e w o u ld h a v e b e e n h e a d o f t h e H a w k s , m a y b e D r a m a t ,
maybe somebody else, Colonel Naidoo?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a s p o i n t 9 8 th is i s

in d e e d c o r r e c t C h a ir, G e n e r a l S ib iy a w h o is c u r r e n t h e a d o f t h e H a w k s
b u t a t t h a t s ta t e h e w a s th e D e p u ty N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r, h e w a s n ’ t
t h e h e a d o f t h e H a w k s . I t’s c o r r e c t in s a y in g h e is th e c u r r e n t h e a d o f
t h e H a w k s , a t th a t s t a g e I’ m g i v e n t o u n d e r s t a n d th a t h e w a s t h e
D e p u ty N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r.

H e w a s t a s k e d w i th i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h e

250 posts.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O h o k a y s o w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n te d to m a k e t h e s e

in v e s t i g a t io n s h e w a s n o t – h e w a s i n a n o t h e r p o s it i o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I f I c a n r e c a l l h e w a s t h e
D e p u ty N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

D e p u ty N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o k a y, th a n k y o u .

Page 42 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H e s u b s e q u e n tl y l e ft t h e

p o li c e c h a ir a n d th e n h e c a m e – h e w a s r e in s ta t e d a n d t h is i s th e
p o s i ti o n th a t h e h o l d s a t t h e p r e s e n t m o m e n t , h e is c u r r e n t h e a d o f t h e
H a w k s , C h a ir … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I t h i n k it w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t to m a k e r e f e r e n c e

t o t h e p o s it i o n h e h e l d a t t h e t i m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s o k a y, y e s C o l o n e l N a i d o o I t h i n k y o u w a n te d to

say something?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir I r e m e m b e r

h a v i n g a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h e r e h e in f o r m e d m e t h a t
h i m s e l f a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li h a d a d is c u s s i o n a n d t h e y w e r e c o n s i d e r i n g
p l a c in g G e n e r a l S i b i y a ’s w i fe ’s n a m e o n t h e l is t a n d I ’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t ,
w h e n I m e n t io n th e l is t , I ’ m s p e a k i n g o f t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts , t h e c o v e r t p o s ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I b e l ie v e o r r a t h e r

t h e d i s c u s s io n I h a d w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s t a t i n g t h a t t h e y w e r e
c o n s i d e r in g th is , I a s s u m e d t h a t t h is w a s t o – e i t h e r t o s tr o n g a r m
G e n e r a l Si b iy a d u r in g th e in v e s t i g a t io n o r to u s e a s tr o n g e r w o r d ,
20

m a y b e to b l a c k m a i l h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w e r e t h e y c o n s id e r in g t o d o a n d w h o w e r e

they?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , h e to l d
m e t h a t h e h a d a d is c u s s i o n w i th G e n e r a l M d lu li , t h e y w e r e c o n s i d e r i n g
C h a ir, p l a c i n g G e n e r a l Si b iy a ’s w i fe ’s n a m e o n t h e li s t f o r p r o m o t i o n

Page 43 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
w i t h i n th e 2 5 0 p o s t s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s G e n e r a l S i b i y a ’s – G e n e r a l S i b i y a ’s w if e

e m p l o y e d w i th i n o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o t th a t I’ m a w a r e o f

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O r w e r e t h e y – y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e d i s c u s s io n w h e r e

t h e y c o n t e m p l a t e d r e c r u i ti n g h e r o r s i m p ly p la c i n g f a ls e i n fo r m a t i o n
about

her

within

Crime

In t e l li g e n c e ,

as

you

understood

th e ir

c o n v e r s a ti o n w h a t w e r e t h e y ta lk in g a b o u t d o i n g ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Not

fa ls e

i n fo r m a ti o n

C h a ir, th e y w e r e d e l ib e r a t e ly g o in g t o p l a c e h e r n a m e o n th e li s t
w i t h o u t G e n e r a l S i b iy a k n o w in g a b o u t i t , s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d p o s s i b l y
u s e th is a g a i n s t h i m i n s tr o n g a r m in g h i m d u r i n g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n
r e g a r d in g th e 2 5 0 p o s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

P l a c in g h e r n a m e o n t h e li s t m e a n t w h a t?

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

F o r e m p lo y m e n t C h a i r

w i t h i n th e 2 5 0 p o s t s f o r p r o m o ti o n w it h in C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

But I understood you to say she was not employed

w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e , w e r e t h e y c o n t e m p la t in g r e c r u i t in g h e r, w e r e
20

t h e y c o n t e m p la t in g j u s t f a l s e ly p u tt i n g h e r n a m e a s i f s h e h a d b e e n
a p p o i n t e d t o o n e o f th o s e 2 5 0 p o s t s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th e

l a t te r

is

correct

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, I t h o u g h t y o u d e n i e d th a t w h e n I r a is e d it

e a r l ie r o n .

Page 44 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

No

C h a ir,

sorry

my

a p o lo g i e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
that

she

was

T h a t t h e y w e r e t r y i n g to f a ls e l y c r e a te t h e i m p r e s s i o n
appointed,

so

that

is

what

you

understood

the

c o n v e r s a ti o n t o b e a b o u t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir, b a s ic a l ly w h a t
h a p p e n e d w a s , t h e y w e r e g o in g t o p la c e h e r n a m e w i th in th e li s t
w i t h o u t G e n e r a l S i b i y a ’s k n o w l e d g e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t i t – I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t i t w o u ld b e e a s y

f o r G e n e r a l S i b i y a to k n o w th a t , t h a t w a s j u s t f a l s e i n f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e
h e w o u ld k n o w i f h is w i fe w a s a p p o i n t e d o r w a s e m p lo y e d b y C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r I c a n c o n fi r m th a t I
h a d t h e c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s – t h a t h e h a d w i th G e n e r a l
M d lu li r e g a r d i n g t h e p la c e m e n t o f G e n e r a l S i b i y a ’s w i f e ’s n a m e o n t h e
lis t , w h e th e r t h i s a c t u a l ly tr a n s p ir e d C h a ir, I c a n ’ t b e s u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , j u s t s e e m s a w e a k k i n d o f e x c u s e t o tr y a n d

blackmail him, yes okay continue.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Colonel Naidoo you’ve

s a i d th a t t h e s u b m is s i o n o f fa ls e i n fo r m e r r e w a r d s w a s a m e c h a n i s m
u s e d t o g e n e r a t e l a r g e a m o u n t s o f c a s h w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i f y o u c o u l d e x p l a i n th is in a l i tt l e b i t

m o r e d e t a i l n o w to t h e C h a ir a n d a l s o p r o v i d e t h e e x a m p l e y o u
in d i c a t e d e a r li e r, y o u w o u ld d e a l w i th a s t o w h a t h a p p e n e d i n C o l o n e l

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
F M 4 1 ’s o ff ic e r e l a ti n g t o th is ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I w o n ’ t g o i n to t h e

d e t a i l o f t h e c o n t a c t p e r s o n , t h e in f o r m e r, I t h i n k I s e t t h a t o u t
p r e v i o u s ly b u t I ’l l g o t o a n i n c i d e n t , C h a ir w h e r e I w a s p e r s o n a lly
in v o lv e d , lik e y o u m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r I s h o u l d s ta y a w a y fr o m t h e
in c i d e n ts w h e r e I’ m g o i n g to m a k e a s s u m p t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
p e r s o n a l ly i n v o lv e d .
10

T h is is w h e r e I w a s

I a c c o m p a n i e d F M 4 1 f o r a m e e ti n g w i th t h e s o -

c a l l e d i n f o r m e r, i n m y p r e s e n c e C h a ir, I t h i n k th is m e e t i n g w a s h e l d a t
a r e s t a u r a n t i n Pr e t o r i a w h e r e h e g o t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r i n d iv id u a l to s i g n
r e c e i p ts , b l a n k r e c e i p ts , s i x r e c e ip t s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair

in

this

manner…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y C o l o n e l N a id o o a n d M is s W e n tz e l a r e w e

now under H at page 24?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s w e a r e .

O k a y, I ’ m s o r r y. C a n I ju s t g o b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h 9 6

– 9 8 r a t h e r, y o u m e n ti o n e d t h e r e , C o l o n e l N a i d o o th a t G e n e r a l S i b iy a
was

appointed

to

i n v e s ti g a te

various

–

to

appoint

these

250

a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d p r o m o ti o n s a r o u n d t h e ti m e t h a t t h e p r o m o ti o n s a n d
a p p o i n t m e n ts w e r e m a d e b u t y o u d o n ’t t a k e i t f u r t h e r t o t e ll m e , w h a t
w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t p r o c e s s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 46 of 170

C h a ir I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t p r o c e s s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d i t h a p p e n j u s t b e fo r e y o u w e n t o n t o th e w it n e s s

p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h e a p p o i n t m e n t s

t o o k p la c e a r o u n d 2 0 1 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b y th e ti m e y o u w e n t in t o th e w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n
p r o g r a m m e y o u d id n ’t k n o w – t h e r e w a s n o o u tc o m e a s fa r a s y o u
knew?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f th e r e w a s a n o u tc o m e w e r e y o u l ik e l y t o b e o n e
o f t h e p e o p le w h o w o u l d h a v e k n o w n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I t h i n k t h a t w o u l d

h a v e b e e n i n fo r m a ti o n r e s tr i c t e d t o – s a t w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u li I t h i n k h e
– b e c a u s e h e w a s t h e D iv i s i o n a l o f C I a t th a t s ta g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So

th e

report

would

p r o b a b ly h a v e g o n e b a c k t o h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t i f t h e r e w a s a n o u t c o m e a lr e a d y b y t h e ti m e
y o u w e r e p u t o n t h e w i tn e s s p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m m e t h a t o u tc o m e h a d
20

n o t a t th a t s t a g e b e e n i m p l e m e n t e d i n a n y w a y i f i t ’s i m p l e m e n t a t i o n
w o u ld h a v e m e a n t t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f a p p o in t m e n ts a n d p r o m o ti o n s t h a t
h a d h a p p e n e d , is th a t r i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o b y t h e t i m e y o u w e n t in t o t h e w i tn e s s p r o t e c t io n

p r o g r a m m e , t h e p e o p l e w h o h a d b e e n a p p o i n te d a n d p r o m o te d to t h o s e

Page 47 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
p o s i ti o n s w e r e s t il l c o n t in u in g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t , y e s th e n I ’ m s o r r y I i n t e r r u p te d y o u , y o u
h a d b e e n a s k e d a q u e s ti o n t h a t f a lls u n d e r H a n d y o u c a n c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a i r i t ’s q u a r t e r p a s t e l e v e n I d o n ’ t

k n o w i f y o u w a n t to t a k e t h e te a a d jo u r n m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m a y b e w e c a n t a k e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e w i ll s t a r t t h a t s u b je c t a f te r w a r d s .

J a y o u c a n s t a r t w i th t h a t q u e s ti o n w h e n w e c o m e

b a c k . W e ’ll t a k e t h e te a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t e le v e n ,
we adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l R is e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y w e a r e s t a r ti n g 7 m i n u t e s la t e . Yo u k n o w t h e r e
is u r g e n t c o m m i s s i o n m a t t e r s t h a t n e e d t o b e a t t e n d e d s o m e ti m e s
c a u s e u s s o m e d e l a y s . Ye s l e t u s c o n t in u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a i d o o b e fo r e t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Are you there?

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B e f o r e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t y o u w e r e d e a l in g
w i t h w h a t is s e t o u t b y y o u o n – in p a r a g r a p h 1 0 7 p a g e 2 5 o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t a n d y o u m a k e t h e a s s e r ti o n t h a t :

Page 48 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
“I do not think that the informers under whose names
t h e c l a i ms w e r e s u b m i t t e d w e r e e v e n a w a r e t h a t th e
c la i m s w e r e b e in g m a d e . ”
C a n y o u e x p la i n w h y y o u s a y th a t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll Ms W e n tz e l t h e r e w a s a q u e s ti o n t h a t y o u h a d

a s k e d t h a t C o lo n e l N a id o o w a s i n t h e m i d d l e o f a n s w e r i n g w h e n I
in t e r r u p t e d h i m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t t h in k h e h a d g iv e n h i s f u ll a n s w e r.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Had he?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H e h a d n o t g iv e n h is f u l l a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h is th e s a m e q u e s t io n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a lr ig h t . I t h o u g h t i t w a s m o r e – I th o u g h t i t
r e l a t e d to s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d p a r a g r a p h s 1 0 0 1 0 1 b u t y o u p r o b a b ly
k n o w b e tt e r w h ic h p a r a g r a p h s i t r e l a t e d t o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a id o o i f I a m w r o n g y o u c a n – i f y o u
c o u l d – y o u w e lc o m e to c l a r i fy.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w il l d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W o u ld y o u l ik e t o p r o c e e d w it h w h a t y o u w e r e
s a y in g ?

Page 49 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir I w a s o n t h e

p o i n t o f t h e i n f o r m e r r e w a r d s . I b e l ie v e t h e s y s t e m w a s a b u s e d C h a ir.
I say so because on one occasion I was in the company of FM41 where
w e a t te n d e d a m e e t i n g w i t h a s o c a ll e d – w h e n I s a y s o c a ll e d I w il l g e t
t o t h a t – in f o r m e r. Th is p a r t ic u l a r i n d iv i d u a l F M 4 1 g o t h i m t o s i g n s ix
r e c e i p ts . C h a ir i n e s s e n c e th e s e s ix r e c e ip ts a r e s ix b l a n k c h e q u e s in
t e r m s o f th e s y s t e m fo r C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .

B e c a u s e b a s ic a l ly in th is

w a y o p e r a ti o n a l e x p e n s e s a n d i n f o r m e r r e w a r d s c a n b e p u t in f o r th a t
p a r t ic u l a r – o r s o c a l le d i n fo r m e r f o r a p e r i o d o f th r e e m o n t h s . A n d a n y
10

a m o u n t t h a t w o u ld b e a t th e d is c r e t i o n o f t h e c o m m a n d e r b e in g in t h is
case being FM41.

He could put in any amount on those – on those

r e c e i p ts b e i n g a l r e a d y b e in g s ig n e d – s ix a t o n e g o b y th e i n fo r m e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y r e c e ip t s y o u m e a n a d o c u m e n t t h a t

w o u ld o n th e f a c e o f i t r e f le c t th a t th e in f o r m e r h a s r e c e i v e d a c e r t a i n
amount?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I f I
may just ex…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s o p p o s e d t o c l a i ms – s ig n i n g c l a i ms ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I f I
20

m a y j u s t e x p la i n ?

W h e n a n in f o r m e r i s h a n d e d c a s h b y h is – b y a

h a n d l e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e n e e d s t o a c k n o w l e d g e
receipt of that cash.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 50 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o h e n e e d s to w r it e i n

the amount in words, the actual amount be it R10.00 or R20.00 and
s ig n f o r i t i n th e p r e s e n c e o f a h a n d l e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n t h i s c a s e s ix r e c e ip t s
w e r e s i g n e d a t o n e g o w i th o u t a n y a m o u n t b e i n g w r it t e n o n t h e
r e c e i p ts . S o in e s s e n c e l ik e I s a i d th is w a s s ix b l a n k c h e q u e s in t e r m s
o f t h e p r o c e s s f o r C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o th e i n fo r m e r w o u l d a ls o k n o w t h a t h e w a s –
10

h e w a s r e p r e s e n t in g t h a t h e h a d r e c e iv e d m o n e y t h a t w a s y e t t o b e
fi ll e d i n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o r r y C h a ir I d i d n o t g e t
that.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e i n f o r m e r w o u l d a l s o h a v e k n o w n th a t h e w a s

r e p r e s e n ti n g th a t h e h a d r e c e iv e d s o m e th i n g t h a t w a s y e t t o b e fi ll e d i n
o n t h e p a p e r in t e r m s o f th e a m o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a i r b u t in a

n o r m a l c ir c u m s ta n c e C h a ir if a n in f o r m e r g e ts o p e r a ti o n a l e x p e n s e it
w o u ld b e o n e r e c e i p t s t a t i n g t h a t h e h a d r e c e iv e d t h a t p a r t ic u l a r
20

a m o u n t o n t h a t p a r tic u la r d a y fo r o p e r a t io n a l e x p e n s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d i f it w a s i n f o r m e r

r e w a r d s it w o u ld b e a n o th e r r e c e i p t s t a ti n g th a t – a c k n o w le d g i n g t h a t
h e h a d r e c e iv e d X a m o u n t .

L ik e I s a i d i n t h is c a s e s i x r e c e ip t s w e r e

s ig n e d a t o n e g o .

Page 51 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t r e fl e c ti n g a n y a m o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

I t w a s b l a n k C h a ir ju s t

h is s i g n a t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W a s i t j u s t t h e in f o r m e r ’s s i g n a t u r e w it h o u t a n y
w r i t in g t o th e e ffe c t th a t s o m e t h i n g li k e “ I a c k n o w l e d g e t h a t I h a v e
r e c e i v e d – a m o u n t fr o m s o a n d s o ” . I t w a s n o t a n y t h i n g li k e th a t – th e y
ju s t s i g n e d , p u t t h e ir s i g n a t u r e s o n a b la n k p a p e r t h a t d i d n o t s a y w h a t
it w a s – w h a t t h e s i g n a t u r e w a s fo r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

T h e l a t te r is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay but you – you understood that signing those
b l a n k d o c u m e n ts w a s m e a n t t o b e a n a c k n o w le d g m e n t b y t h e i n f o r m e r
o f r e c e ip t o f m o n e y t h a t w a s y e t t o b e d e t e r m in e d o r to b e p u t o n t h e
paper?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o lo n e l N a id o o d o y o u r e c a ll w h e n a n d w h e r e
t h is in c i d e n t to o k p l a c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w a s i n P r e to r i a .

20

I t h i n k i t w a s th e – w e m e t o u t s i d e th e B l u e C r a n e R e s t a u r a n t i n
P r e t o r i a C h a ir. I t w a s m y s e l f , F M 4 1 a n d th e a c tu a l – w e ll I s a y a c t u a l i t
w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o – t h e s o c a ll e d in f o r m e r w h o s i g n e d t h e s i x b l a n k
r e c e i p ts .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h y d o y o u u s e t h e te r m s o c a l le d

in f o r m e r ?

Page 52 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir I b e li e v e I a m

s a y in g th is is n o t f a c t I b e l ie v e h o w t h e s y s t e m w a s a b u s e d i n s o f a r a s
t h e i n fo r m e r r e w a r d s g o . T h e i n s t a n c e w h e r e s ix r e c e ip ts w e r e s i g n e d
a t o n e g o th a t i s n o t p r o p e r p r o c e d u r e . I t s h o u l d b e o n e a t a ti m e f o r a
s p e c i f ic a m o u n t . I n t h i s – In t h is m a n n e r f a ls e in t e l li g e n c e r e p o r ts c a n
b e g e n e r a te d a g a i n s t t h is in f o r m e r ’s n a m e a n d i n fo r m e r r e w a r d s – f a l s e
in f o r m e r r e w a r d s g e n e r a t e d v i a th is p r o c e s s .

I a ls o w a n t to m e n ti o n

C h a ir F M – j u s t t o g i v e y o u s o m e in s i g h t a s to h o w t h e p r o c e s s
u n f o l d e d o r to o k p la c e . F M 4 5 w h o a t th a t s t a g e w a s s e c o n d in c h a r g e
10

t o F M 4 1 . H e t o ld m e t h a t F M 4 1 h a d a – h a d a c o n tr a c t a t O r g a n i s e d
C r i m e C h a ir i n Pr e to r i a . T h e y d e v is e d a s c h e m e w h e r e th e y w o u l d u s e
o r g a n i s e d c r i m e – t h e S A P S c a s e n u m b e r s a n d t h e e x h ib i t n u m b e r s o f
o r g a n i s e d c r i m e a n d u s e i t a g a in s t i n te ll ig e n c e t h a t – o r f a l s e
in t e l li g e n c e th a t w a s g e n e r a t e d in th is m a n n e r. F a ls e i n fo r m e r r e w a r d s
c o u l d b e g e n e – o r f a ls e in f o r m e r r e w a r d s o r m o n e y fr o m f a l s e i n f o r m e r
r e w a r d s c o u ld b e g e n e r a t e d i n t h is m a n n e r C h a ir. A s I e x p la in e d o f t h e
s ix b l a n k r e c e i p ts th is w o u l d b e u s e d i n t h i s p r o c e s s a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t in t h e c a s e o f t h e s ix r e c e i p ts t h a t y o u h a v e
t o l d m e a b o u t w a s t h e i n f o r m e r a s f a r a s y o u k n e w a l e g i ti m a t e in f o r m e r

20

o r w a s t h e i n fo r m e r n o t a l e g i ti m a t e in f o r m e r ? I a m g o in g b a c k t o t h e
q u e s t io n a s to w h y y o u w e r e s a y i n g s o c a ll e d in f o r m e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
c o u l d – h e c o u l d b e l e g i ti m a t e i n fo r m e r o r n o t .
sure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 53 of 170

C h a ir h e c o u ld – h e
I cannot say that for

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

But the process that

tr a n s p ir e d w a s – w a s n o t le g i t i m a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

C o lo n e l N a id o o i f y o u c a n ju s t

e x p l a i n to y o u – e x p la i n a l it t le b i t m o r e d e ta il w h a t y o u i n d ic a t e d a f e w
m i n u t e s a g o a n d – a n d i f w e c a n j u s t g o b a c k s o y o u c a n e x p la i n i t s o
t h a t w e c a n p r o p e r ly u n d e r s t a n d . W h ic h o ffic e d i d C o lo n e l F M 4 1 w o r k
in ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :
10

It was – it was an

o p e r a ti o n a l te a m b a s e d w it h in t h e e n v i r o n m e n t o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .
C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e G a t h e r i n g m o r e e s p e c ia ll y d e a li n g o r a d d r e s s i n g
d r u g a n d v e h i c l e r e l a t e d s y n d ic a t e s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d id F M 4 5 h o l d i n t h a t t e a m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F M 4 5 w a s t h e s e c o n d i n
charge to FM41.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d n o w e x p l a i n y o u s a i d h e i n fo r m e d y o u

t h a t C o l o n e l 4 1 h a d a c o n ta c t i n O r g a n is e d C r i m e a n d h e d e v is e d th e
s c h e m e u s in g S A P S c a s e n u m b e r s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u ld y o u j u s t e x p l a in t h a t i n a li t tl e b i t m o r e
d e t a i l a n d i n p a r tic u la r w i th r e g a r d t o h o w t h e s y s t e m f o r i n fo r m e r
rewards worked?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir in e s s e n c e w h a t

t h is m e a n s is th a t th e y w o u l d – t h e c o n t a c t I d o n o t k n o w w h o t h i s
c o n ta c t i s b u t t h e c o n t a c t w a s a t O r g a n i s e d C r i m e .

Page 54 of 170

They would use

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
O r g a n is e d C r i m e C A S n u m b e r s a n d E x h i b i t n u m b e r s b a s i c a ll y u s e th a t
o n t h e I n te ll ig e n c e R e p o r ts t o g e n e r a te i n f o r m e r r e w a r d s .

I a ls o

r e fe r r e d t o a – t o a c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t I h a d w i t h o n e o f t h e m e m b e r s a t
t h a t s ta g e . I t w a s a W a r r a n t O ff ic e r P h il Ve r m e u l e n . H e t o l d m e t h e r e
w a s – th e r e w a s a – th e r e w a s a s u c c e s s o n m e t a l a n d p l a t i n u m b u t t h e
v a l u e w a s – w a s – i t w a s o n l y R 5 0 0 . 0 0 C h a ir. H o w e v e r t h e a c t u a l o r
t h e f a ls e s u c c e s s f o r t h is – f o r t h is p a r tic u l a r r e c o v e r y o f t h e p la t in u m
w a s a c t u a l ly i n th e – i n t h e v i c i n i t y o f R 5 m il li o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t i n s te a d o f b e i n g p a id –
10

was a success reward paid as a percentage?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n p a id
a s a p e r c e n ta g e b u t b a s i c a lly w h a t i t m e a n s t h e v a l u e w a s a c t u a ll y
R 5 0 0 .0 0 b u t t h e i n fo r m e r r e w a r d w a s p u t i n a s a – a s t h e s u c c e s s b e in g
R 5 m i ll io n a s o p p o s e d t o R 5 0 0 .0 0 .
what the informer would get.

S o t h e r e is a b i g g a p i n te r m s o f
I n t e r m s o f t h e f in a n c i a l – t h e

r e m u n e r a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t w h a t t h e i n fo r m e r w a s

s u p p o s e d to g e t w a s R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

N o C h a ir t h e a c t u a l

s u c c e s s w a s R 5 0 0 . 0 0 w h e r e t h e m e t a l w a s – p r e c io u s m e t a l o r s o
c a l l e d p r e c io u s m e t a l w a s r e c o v e r e d b u t t h e a c t u a l v a lu e w a s R 5 0 0 . 0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: R500.00?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d …

Page 55 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o R 5 0 0 . 0 0 b e i n g th e v a l u e o f t h e m e ta l ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y t h a t t h is w a s i n fl a t e d – t h e v a l u e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th e s u c c e s s f o r t h e

r e c o v e r y o f th is m e t a l w a s r e fl e c t e d a s R 5 m il li o n a n d t h e in f o r m e r
reward would have generated – been generated on a success of R5
m il li o n a n d n o t R 5 0 0 . 0 0 . T h is is w h a t w a s t o l d to m e b y t h is p a r ti c u la r
in d i v i d u a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w a s i t r e p r e s e n t e d t h a t th e v a l u e o f t h e m e t a l t h a t
10

w a s r e c o v e r e d w a s R 5 m il li o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b a s e d o n th a t t h e r e w a r d – t h e i n f o r m e r r e w a r d –
t h e i n f o r m e r r e w a r d w a s t h e n c a lc u la t e d o n t h e b a s i s t h a t t h e v a l u e o f
t h e m e t a l w a s R 5 – t h a t h a d b e e n r e c o v e r e d w a s R 5 m i ll i o n .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h e a m o u n t o f t h e in f o r m e r r e w a r d th a t
w a s d e c id e d u p o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th is w a s n o t t o l d t o m e

C h a ir I a m n o t a w a r e o f th e a c tu a l i n f o r m e r r e w a r d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w t h is i n c i d e n t y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t d i d t h a t

o c c u r in C o l o n e l F M 4 1 ’s o ffi c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

That is correct.

Th is –

t h is p a r ti c u l a r i n d i v i d u a l w h o r e la y e d t h i s i n fo r m a t i o n t o m e w a s o n e o f
t h e m e m b e r s f r o m t h a t o ff ic e a t th a t ti m e .

Page 56 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O k a y n o w i f w e g o b a c k to t h e s y s t e m w i th t h e
scheme using the SAPS case numbers. Are you saying that as a result
o f a c r i mi n a l p r o s e c u t i o n u n d e r t h e s e c a s e n u m b e r s th e r e w o u l d h a v e
b e e n a s u c c e s s fu l r e c o v e r y w h ic h c o u ld b e th e n u s e d fo r in f o r m e r
r e w a r d s . I f y o u c a n j u s t e x p l a i n h o w i t w o r k s i n a li t tl e b i t m o r e d e t a il
please?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

Th a t is e x a c t ly h o w y o u

e x p l a i n e d i t M s W e n tz e l . Th e s e c a s e n u m b e r s u s e d fr o m c a s e n u m b e r s
a n d t h e S A P n u m b e r s w o u l d b e u s e d o n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e Pr o g r e s s
10

R e p o r ts o f S u c c e s s R e p o r ts a n d a s a r e s u l t i n fo r m e r r e w a r d s w i ll b e –
c a n b e g e n e r a t e d t h r o u g h th is p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w o u ld th e y – w o u l d – w o u ld th e y g o t o f o r e x a m p le
P r e t o r i a M a g is tr a te s C o u r t I a m j u s t m a k i n g a n e x a m p le a n d e s ta b l is h
t h e c a s e n u m b e r s r e la t in g t o c e r t a in c r i m i n a l c a s e s a n d c h o o s e w h i c h
c r i m i n a l c a s e s t h e y w o u l d u s e a n d t a k e t h e c a s e n u m b e r s a n d th e n u s e
in f o r m a ti o n

that can

be

e s t a b li s h e d

that

anyone

who

w a n ts

to

in v e s t i g a t e w o u ld fi n d i n t h e d o c k e t a n d t h e n a t tr ib u t e a r o l e t o a n
in f o r m e r in r e g a r d to t h a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n f o r t h a t c a s e i n c i r c u ms t a n c e s
w h e r e t h e i n f o r m e r h a d n o t p la y e d a n y r o le i n th a t c a s e o r w o u l d t h e
20

c a s e b e t h a t th e in f o r m e r w o u ld h a v e p la y e d s o m e r o l e b u t h is o r h e r
r o l e w o u l d b e e x a g g e r a te d in t e r m s o f th e v a lu e o f w h a t w a s
recovered?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a m – I d o n o t

t h i n k th e in f o r m e r w o u l d h a v e h a d a n y r o l e i n th is .

L ik e I e x p l a i n e d

e a r l ie r t h e in f o r m e r – o n e i n f o r m e r s ig n e d s ix b l a n k r e c e i p ts .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So I do not think the

in f o r m e r w o u l d h a v e h a d a n y k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t th e a c t u a l – a c tu a l
success was.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t – s o is t h e p o s i ti o n t h e r e fo r e t h a t th e y

w o u ld g o t o a p a r t ic u l a r c o u r t , g e t in f o r m a t io n r e la t in g t o e x is t in g c a s e s
o r f in a lis e d c a s e s a n d i f th e y th i n k t h a t th o s e c a s e s h a v e g o t
in f o r m a ti o n o r fis s u r e s t h a t th e y c a n u s e f o r – t o g e t in f o r m e r r e w a r d s
t h e n t h e y w o u ld r e p r e s e n t i n o n e f o r m o r a n o t h e r t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n
10

a n in f o r m e r w h o h a d p l a y e d a r o le w h e n i n f a c t t h e r e n o in f o r m e r h a d
p l a y e d a r o l e o r t h a t i n fo r m e r h a d n o t p la y e d a n y r o l e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n th e y w o u l d t h e n u s e th a t t o – t o g e t i n fo r m e r
rewards?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

And the rewards would not go to the informer but

w o u ld g o t o th e m u lt i m a t e ly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o is i t c o r r e c t t h a t th e r e p o r t

p u r s u a n t t o w h ic h in f o r m e r r e w a r d s w e r e c la i m e d w o u ld b e fi ll e d o u t b y
t h e in f o r m e r s ’ h a n d le r n o t t h e i n fo r m e r h i m s e l f ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I t w o u l d h a v e t o b e fi ll e d
o u t b y – a r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t – s o r r y M s W e n tz e l y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t th e
r e c e i p t th a t …

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o n o t th e r e c e i p ts .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u …
CHAIRPERSON: The claims.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e c la i m s – s o w h a t y o u s a i d is t h a t a S A P S
case number would be used.

It w o u l d r e fl e c t th a t th e r e h a d b e e n a

s u c c e s s fu l o u tc o m e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

A n d t h e n a r e p o r t is s u b m i t t e d a ll e g i n g t h a t

t h e y – t h e i n fo r m e r is w o r k e d o n a s u c c e s s f u l i n v e s ti g a t i o n a n d
t h e r e f o r e is c la i m i n g in f o r m e r r e w a r d s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h o w o u ld fi ll t h a t r e p o r t o u t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t w o u l d b e th e h a n d l e r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u a ls o i n d ic a t e i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t th a t
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w o u l d r e t a i n a p e r s o n n e l f il e o n e a c h i n fo r m e r a n d
p r o g r e s s r e p o r ts w e r e m a i n t a i n e d m o n t h ly i n o r d e r to tr a c k t h e
p r o d u c t iv i t y o f th e i n f o r m e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w a s th a t t o d e te r m i n e if th a t i n f o r m e r w a s
e n t i tl e d t o i n fo r m e r r e w a r d s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Th a t is c o r r e c t . T h a t fi le
w o u ld i n e s s e n c e t r a c k t h e p r o d u c t iv it y o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r i n fo r m e r f o r
t h a t m o n t h b u t I b e li e v e t h a t f a l s e i n t e l li g e n c e r e p o r t s w e r e g e n e r a te d
t o f a c il it a t e t h is .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And as you understood the scheme where a

r e p o r t w a s s u b m i t t e d b y a h a n d l e r a l l e g in g th a t t h e y h a d w o r k e d o n a
s u c c e s s fu l – t h e in f o r m e r h a d w o r k e d o n a s u c c e s s fu l i n v e s ti g a t i o n . A s
y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e s c h e m e w o u l d th e i n f o r me r e v e r h a d w o r k e d o n t h i s
in v e s t i g a t io n u n d e r t h is c a s e n u m b e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ex p l a in i n g h o w th e

s y s te m w o r k e d a n d h o w th e f u n d s w e r e g e n e r a te d I d o n o t th in k th a t
p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n h a d w o r k e d o n a n y o f t h e – o f th e s o c a l le d r e p o r t
r e g a r d in g th e s u c c e s s .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you Colonel Naidoo.

C o lo n e l N a id o o

y o u s a y in y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t th e r e w a s a n e q u a l a b u s e o f th e s y s t e ms
in

p la c e

at Crime

I n te ll ig e n c e r e l a ti n g

to

the

procurement and

u til is a ti o n o f s a fe h o u s e s . Th is i s p a g e 2 6 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : F r o m p a r a g r a p h 1 0 9 . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e g iv e
t h e C h a ir s o m e b a c k g r o u n d a s t h e b a s i s u p o n w h ic h y o u s a y t h i s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I t h i n k w e w i ll s ta y
a w a y fr o m t h e s e a s p e c ts b e c a u s e it is a ls o o p e r a ti o n a l m a tt e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t I h a v e k n o w le d g e o f
safe houses that were abused. If I can go to those ones?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
have personal knowledge of…

Page 60 of 170

Because that is where I

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O f th e s a f e h o u s e s s o w e
w i ll s k i p 1 0 9 t o 11 2 . 3 a n d g o t o 11 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w t h is i s …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Is t h a t o k a y C h a i r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is fi n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a id o o t h is is s a fe h o u s e a t G o r d o n s
B a y r e n t e d fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u li . C o u l d y o u j u s t d e ta il w h a t y o u k n o w
a b o u t t h a t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir lik e M s W e n tz e l

s a i d t h i s – t h is p a r tic u l a r f l a t o r a p a r t m e n t b e l o n g e d t o G e n e r a l M d lu li
in th e W e s t e r n C a p e . I w a s in f o r m e d b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t G e n e r a l
M d lu li w a n ts t o – w a n ts u s – w h e n I s a y u s C I t o r e n t h i s f la t a s a s a f e
h o u s e . I w a s i n s tr u c t e d b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o fly to C a p e To w n . C h a ir
20

I m u s t a ls o a d d M r J o h n A p p a ls a m y o f D a e z Tr a d i n g a ls o a f r i e n d o f
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . I w a s i n s tr u c te d t h a t t h i s p a r tic u la r i n d iv id u a l s h o u l d
a c c o m p a n y m e t o C a p e To w n . T h is w a s p u r e l y t o – s o th a t h e c a n h a v e
k n o w l e d g e o f w h e r e t h e p r e m is e s is b e c a u s e t h e – th is p a r ti c u l a r fl a t
w o u ld h a v e t o b e r e n t e d o r l e a s e d r a th e r t h r o u g h h is c o m p a n y D a e z
Tr a d in g . C h a ir M r A p p a ls a my f l e w w i th m e to C a p e To w n . L ik e I s a i d

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
t h is w a s a n i n s tr u c t io n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . I a l s o g o t i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h a t I s h o u l d d r a w a n a d v a n c e f o r t h e t ic k e t f o r Mr
A p p a ls a m y s o b a s ic a l ly h is t ic k e t w a s p a id o u t o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e
A c c o u n t . T h e s e w e r e a ll i n s tr u c t io n s t h a t I g o t f r o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
C h a ir w h e n I tr ie d t o r e c o n c il e t h is p a r ti c u la r a d v a n c e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
in s t r u c t e d m e t o e r a s e t h e n a m e o f M r A p p a ls a m y w h ic h I d id . Th is w a s
p u r e ly n o t t o e x p o s e w h o t h e r e a l p e r s o n w a s t h a t t r a v e ll e d v i a t h e
S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t w h i c h w a s a c t u a ll y M r J o h n A p p a ls a m y o f D a e z
Tr a d in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir w h e n w e a r r i v e d a t
C a p e To w n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u c a n ju s t – C o l o n e l N a i d o o j u s t to c l a r i fy
e r a s e h is n a m e fr o m w h e r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : Fr o m t h e tic k e t th a t I h a d
p u r c h a s e d fo r h i m t h a t – o n th e tic k e t th a t w e – I p u r c h a s e d f o r h i m t o
tr a v e l t o C a p e To w n w i t h m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And how did you do this?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

20

I just used a black

m a r k e t – k h o k i p e n . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. B u t i t w a s b la c k e d o u t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B la c k i n g i t o u t o n t h e ti c k e t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ti c k e t w o u l d b e r e q u ir e d w h e n h e w a s tr a v e l li n g
is i t n o t ?

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : N o C h a ir t h is – m a y b e I
m u s t ju s t e x p l a in .

S o r r y I w a s n o t t o o c l e a r.

This was on our return

fr o m C a p e To w n I r e q u e s t e d t h e tic k e t fr o m M r A p p a ls a my b e c a u s e I
h a d t o r e c o n c i le m y a d v a n c e t h a t I h a d t a k e n in i ti a l ly t o p a y f o r h i s
ti c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t w h e r e w a s t h e b l a c k i n g o u t o r e r a s in g o f h i s
n a m e d o n e ? O n s o m e r e g i s te r ? O n – w h e r e w a s t h i s d o n e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir in o r d e r f o r – if I

c a n j u s t g iv e s o m e i n s ig h t C h a ir i f I m a y ? I n o r d e r t o r e c o n c il e th is –
10

t h is p a r ti c u l a r a d v a n c e I h a d t o p u t i n a r e c e i p t o r i n th is c a s e b e in g
t h e a ir t ic k e t b e c a u s e t h e p r ic e w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n th e a ir ti c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o i n o r d e r to – t o – f o r
t h a t p a r t ic u l a r c la i m t o b e r e c o n c i le d I r e q u e s te d th e a ir ti c k e t fr o m M r
A p p a ls a m y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d o n i n s tr u c t io n o f

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th e n a m e – h i s a c t u a l n a m e o n t h e t ic k e t w a s b la c k e d
o u t s o i t w a s n o t v is i b l e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So as to not to expose

w h o t h e r e a l p e r s o n tr a v e l le d o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r t ic k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h i s w a s a ft e r y o u h a d r e t u r n e d a n d y o u … .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e tic k e t w a s g o i n g to b e k e p t a s – a s p a r t o f

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
the record?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h i s w a s d o n e p u r e ly to
h i d e t h e i d e n ti t y o f Mr A p p a ls a m y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w h e w a s o u ts id e o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e w a s h e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. H e
w a s a fr ie n d o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n n o r e a s o n fo r C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e t o p a y f o r h is tr a v e l li n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e if h e w a s g o i n g to – I t h i n k y o u s a id

s o m e t h i n g a b o u t h i m a n d t h e – a n d G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s fl a t in G o r d o n s
Bay that he was going to lease it or what?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

H e w a s C h a ir.

He had

n u m e r o u s o t h e r – b a s i c a ll y M r A p p a ls a m y ’s c o m p a n y D a e z Tr a d i n g w a s
a b r o k e r w h i c h C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e le a s e d n u m e r o u s s a f e h o u s e s
t h r o u g h h is c o m p a n y D a e z Tr a d in g .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I n t e lli g e n c e

for

Oh.

S o – s o h is c o m p a n y w a s u s e d b y C r i m e

purposes

of

Crime

I n te ll ig e n c e

leasing

various

p r o p e r ti e s a s s a f e h o u s e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I n
t h is i n s t a n c e i n s te a d o f th e s a fe h o u s e b e i n g le a s e d d ir e c tl y fr o m t h e
a c t u a l o w n e r M r A p p a ls a m y w a s s o r t o f a b r o k e r. S o h e w o u ld – s o t h e
le a s e w o u l d s a y t h a t it is D a e z Tr a d i n g a s i f D a e z Tr a d i n g is t h e o w n e r

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
o f th a t p a r t ic u l a r p r o p e r t y b u t i n fa c t i t w a s n o t . S o h e is b a s ic a l ly a
middle man.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u p le a s e h a v e a l o o k
at the document that appears on page 104.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s I a m t h e r e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w is t h i s t h e l e a s e a g r e e m e n t in r e s p e c t o f
M r – G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s G o r d o n s B a y p r o p e r ty th a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o
now?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w i f y o u h a v e a l o o k a t p a g e 1 0 9 i s th a t

y o u r s ig n a t u r e a s a w i t n e s s o n t h i s l e a s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i f y o u h a v e a lo o k a t t h e fir s t p a g e 1 0 4
t h is is a le a s e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n D a e z Tr a d i n g C C a s t h e l e s s o r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e n Te lf o r d W e lv e l l e r a n d i t l o o k s l ik e

R o l e b is e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R o l e b il e .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Rolebile.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir w h o th a t w a s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir C o l o n e l R o l e b il e

w a s t h e H e a d o f Fa c i li ty M a n a g e m e n t o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .

So

b a s ic a lly C o lo n e l R o l e b i l e w a s s ig n in g t h i s l e a s e a l t h o u g h i n h is

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty b u t i t w a s o n b e h a l f o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .

So

b a s ic a lly t h i s l e a s e w a s b e tw e e n D a e z Tr a d i n g a n d M r R o l e b il e b u t a n
e x t e n s i o n t o C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e .

B e c a u s e h e a c t e d o n a s in th a t

c a p a c i ty a s H e a d o f F a c il it y M a n a g e m e n t o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d is i t c o r r e c t t h a t M r M d lu li w a s t h e

r e g is t e r e d o w n e r o f t h a t p r o p e r ty ? I t w a s n o t D a e z Tr a d i n g .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

No.

D a e z Tr a d i n g d i d

n o t o w n t h a t p r o p e r ty.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w d o y o u h a v e a n i d e a w h a t th e p e r i o d o f

t h e le a s e w a s a n d f o r w h a t a m o u n t ? I t a p p e a r s i n t h e l e a s e i ts e l f .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e le a s e s a y s t h r e e

m o n th s s ta r t i n g o n 3 1 J a n u a r y - o h s o r r y. D i d I s a y t h r e e m o n t h s ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
years.

S t a r ti n g

on

1 February 2010

Pardon me.
and

It is three

t e r m i n a t in g

on

31 January 2013.
CHAIRPERSON: And what was the rent - the amount for rent?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

Th e r e n t w o u l d b e 8 5 0 0

p l u s VAT w i t h a 1 0 p e r c e n t a n n u a l in c r e a s e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s i t a t w o b e d r o o m f l a t - t h r e e b e d r o o m f la t ?
What was it?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w a s i n a s e c u r i t y
e s t a t e o r c o m p l e x . Tw o b e d r o o m a p a r t m e n t C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

With

an

open

plan

k i tc h e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d li v i n g a r e a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t t h e l e a s e w a s s ig n e d
o n b e h a l f o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .

Who was paid the rent for this

p r o p e r ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f I c a n ju s t e x p la i n
10

how this worked.

D a e z Tr a d in g w o u l d in v o ic e C o m p a n y X f o r th e

amount of 8 500.

I - I a m n o t s u r e i f t h e a m e n i t ie s w e r e i n c l u d e d i n

t h a t - i n h i s i n v o ic e . I t p r o b a b ly w o u l d b u t i n e s s e n c e w h a t h a p p e n e d
a t t h e e n d o f e a c h m o n th I w o u ld g e t a c a l l fr o m M r A p p a ls a m y.
H e w o u l d g iv e m e c a s h . Th is w a s g e n e r a t e d fr o m - fr o m t h e t h e r e n t o f t h i s p a r t ic u l a r s a f e h o u s e a n d I w o u l d t h e n h a n d o v e r th a t
c a s h o f R 7 0 0 0 , 0 0 to G e n e r a l M d l u l i . Th is w a s o n a m o n t h l y b a s is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And if the rent was 8 500 and you got 7 000
w h a t w a s - w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h e d i ff e r e n c e ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h is w a s - I a m

a s s u m i n g t h a t w a s w h a t Mr A p p a ls a m y o f D a e z Tr a d in g i n v o i c e d
C o m p a n y X a s a c o m m is s i o n f o r h i s b r o k e r a g e o r b r o k e r fe e . T h is w a s
- th is w o u l d a ls o in c l u d e VAT i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n . S o h e w o u ld ta k e t a k e o u t t h a t p o r t io n t h a t h e w o u l d r e c e i v e fr o m C o m p a n y X a n d g i v e
m e t h e b a l a n c e o f R 7 0 0 0 , 0 0 w h ic h I w o u l d t h e n h a n d o v e r t o - t o

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
General Mdluli.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

S o u lt i m a t e ly t h e b u lk o f t h e

r e n t a l w a s r e c e i v e d b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

That is correct.

An

amount of 7 000.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u p e r s o n a l ly h a n d l e d t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

M r A p p a l s a m y w o u l d m e e t m e o n a m o n t h ly b a s is .

If - if his bank

r e c o r d s o r s u b p o e n a e d C h a i r y o u w il l s e e th e p a t t e r n o f e v e r y m o n t h
10

p l u s / m i n u s f iv e d a y s to t h e m o n th e n d a n a m o u n t o f R 1 3 0 0 0 , 0 0 w o u l d
b e - in c a s h w o u ld b e d r a w n fr o m h is a c c o u n t .
I w il l te s t i fy to - w h e n I s a y 1 3 0 0 0 o n e w o u l d a s k t h e
q u e s t io n w h y is i t o n l y s e v e n h e r e . T h e r e w a s a n o t h e r - a n o th e r fl a t i n
Cape

To w n

that

belonged

to

G e n e r a l L a la .

He

w o u ld

r e c e iv e

R 6 0 0 0 , 0 0 . S o t h e a m o u n t o f 1 3 0 0 0 e v e r y m o n th th a t I w o u l d r e c e iv e
fr o m M r A p p a l s a m y o f D a e z Tr a d in g .
The

7 000

w o u ld

go

to

General Mdluli

and

6 000

to

G e n e r a l L a l a . T h is w a s o n a m o n t h l y b a s i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t h in k fo r a p e r io d o f a

y e a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y e a r w o u ld h a v e b e e n fr o m 2 0 1 0 a t s o m e - a t

s o m e s t a g e t o 2 0 11 . A r e y o u a b le t o i n d ic a te w i t h m o r e c e r t a i n ty ? N o w
w e k n o w t h e l e a s e is h e r e a n d th e r e fo r e it s h o u ld in d ic a t e w h e n i t w a s
s ig n e d a n d t h a t s h o u l d h e l p y o u t o s a y i t w a s fr o m w h a t m o n t h t o w h a t

Page 68 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
m o n th .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

it

was

1 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 0 to 3 1 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 b u t t h is - t h is d id n o t g o o n f o r t h e
f u ll p e r io d C h a ir. I t h i n k i t w a s o n ly f o r t h e p e r i o d o f p r o b a b l y a r o u n d p r o b a b ly a b o u t a y e a r b e c a u s e i n 2 0 - i n 2 0 11 a r o u n d a b o u t M a r c h F e b r u a r y / M a r c h i f I c a n r e c a l l c o r r e c t ly G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s a r r e s te d a t
t h a t s t a g e - 2 0 11 .
CHAIRPERSON: Did that …?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o t h is le a s e c e a s e d . I t
10

d i d n o t g o o n C h a ir. A l t h o u g h i n p a p e r i t s a y s t h r e e y e a r s b u t it w a s
o n ly f o r a p e r i o d a b o u t a y e a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

A lr ig h t a n d t h a t a r r e s t o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i

w a s i t a m o n g o t h e r th i n g s c o n n e c te d w i t h t h is is s u e o r n o t r e a lly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i t w a s n o t r e la t e d

t o t h i s is s u e a t a ll . I f I c a n r e c a l l - r e c o l le c t o r r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y i t w a s
s o m e o th e r m a t t e r s r e g a r d i n g a m u r d e r a n d k id n a p p in g . I f I c a n r e c a ll
c o r r e c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

So it was not connected

t o t h i s a t a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a i d o o d id y o u p u r c h a s e fu r n i tu r e f o r
t h e s a f e h o u s e s r e n t e d fr o m G e n e r a l L a la a n d G e n e r a l M d l u l i?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s I d i d . M s W e n tz e l i f
I c a n ju s t e x p la in b e fo r e I g e t to t h a t C h a ir.

Page 69 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

What

was

M r A p p a l s a m y ’s r e a s o n to fl y w i t h m e a n d t h is i s w h a t I b e l i e v e . C h a i r
if - i f t h e r e w a s a n i n s p e c ti o n t o b e d o n e o n t h e s e p r e m is e s t h a t w a s
g o i n g to b e r e n t e d o u t b y C I I c o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t m y s e lf C h a ir. A t
t h is s t a g e i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y I w a s w o r k in g a t t h e F a c i li ty
M a n a g e m e n t u n d e r C o l o n e l ( i n d i s t i n c t) .
S o t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r Mr A p p a ls a m y t o a c c o m p a n y m e o n
t h e v e r s io n t h a t i f th e r e w a s a n in s p e c t io n t o b e d o n e t o s e e i f th is is
10

f e a s i b l e fo r C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e to in d e e d r e n t t h is p a r tic u l a r p r o p e r ty. I
b e li e v e t h a t M r A p p a ls a my f l e w w it h m e s o th a t h e h a s a t le a s t
k n o w l e d g e o f w h e r e th is p a r ti c u l a r p r o p e r t y i s s o i f t h e r e w a s a n y q u e r y
b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r h e s i g n e d a s - a s o w n i n g t h i s p r o p e r t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So if there was a query

a t l e a s t h e h a d s o m e k n o w le d g e o f w h e r e i t w a s . T h is is w h a t I b e li e v e
C h a ir. T h is is w h y M r A p p a ls a m y a c c o m p a n i e d m e o n th is tr i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

C o l o n e l N a id o o d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e r e y o u

w e r e w h e n y o u w i t n e s s e d th e s i g n i n g o f th is l e a s e i n r e s p e c t o f
G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s p r o p e r ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
not sure Ms Wentzel.

Just one second.

I am

T h o s e d e t a ils a r e n o t o n - o n th e l e a s e

agreement and I cannot recall where I was at that stage.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I - I w i ll t e ll y o u w h y I a m - n o t h e r e a p p e a r s

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
t o b e a c o n f u s i o n . I - I w i ll d e a l w i t h t h i s o v e r t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t . I
t h i n k t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a - a n i n c o r r e c t le a s e a d d e d a f t e r th e e n d o f
t h a t w h ic h is c o n fu s i n g . C o u l d y o u n o w d e a l w i t h t h e f u r n i t u r e t h a t w a s
p u r c h a s e d fo r t h e s e p r o p e r t i e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

Upon its

a r r iv a l i n C a p e To w n a n d in s p e c t in g t h e p r o p e r ty b a s i c …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e - M s W e n tz e l t h e q u e s t io n s h o u l d h a v e b e e n
w h e t h e r h e k n o w s w h o b o u g h t f u r n i t u r e f o r th e s e h o u s e s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I - I a p o l o g i s e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t s h o u ld n o t …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Lead.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a p o lo g is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a id o o w a s f u r n i t u r e p u r c h a s e d f o r

t h is p r o p e r t ie s a n d i f s o w h o p u r c h a s e d t h i s f u r n i t u r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

I - I p e r s o n a ll y o r d e r e d

t h e fu r n i tu r e o n i n s tr u c t io n s o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s f o r t h e p r e m is e s o f
b o t h G e n e r a l L a l a a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li .
s u p p li e r to C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .

I t w a s a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r o r

M a s o n s F u r n i t u r e in B e n o n i.

I think

t h e y a r e s it u a te d i n B e n o n i C h a ir.
I - I c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c tl y w h a t w a s p u r c h a s e d - w h a t a s s e t s
w e r e p u r c h a s e d b u t i n te r ms o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s fl a t i t w a s a t w o

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
b e d r o o m fl a t . S o I w o u l d t a k e i t th a t w o u l d b e t w o b e d s . T h e - f o r t h e
liv in g a r e a s T Vs , lo u n g e s e t a n d y o u r s m a l l a p p li a n c e s fo r t h e k i tc h e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d o y o u k n o w h o w m u c h C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e
s p e n t o n t h e s e t w o p r o p e r ti e s i n r e s p e c t o f fu r n i tu r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir it w o u ld p r o b a b l y

b e in t h e r e g i o n o f 5 0 to R 6 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 b u t i f th e - th e s e - th e s e e x p e n s e s
w o u ld b e p o s t e d a g a i n s t th is p a r t ic u l a r S R N u m b e r i f t h e d o c u m e n ts a r e
s h o w e d - s h o w n to m e I c a n c o n fi r m th a t i t i s i n d e e d f o r th a t p r e m i s e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: the 50 or R60 000,00 would that be in regard to each
o f t h e t w o p r o p e r ti e s o r w o u l d i t b e f o r b o t h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir, I - I c a n n o t r e c a l l

e x a c tl y b u t I - I t h i n k it w o u ld b e f o r b o t h .

F o r - f o r G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s

p r e m is e s a n d G e n e r a l L a l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u n o w d e a l w i t h t h e

le a s e o f r e s id e n ti a l p r o p e r ty s i t u a t e d a t C l e a r w a t e r Es t a te in B o k s b u r g .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir. Th is w a s a l s o
a p r o p e r t y l e a s e d b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e v i a D a e z Tr a d i n g t h r o u g h
20

M r J o h n A p p a ls a my ’s

c o m p a n y.

Th is

was

for

the

sole

use

of

G e n e r a l M d l u l i a lt h o u g h m y s e l f a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a d h a d a c c e s s t o
t h is p a r tic u la r p r o p e r t y.
I t w a s s i t u a t e d w it h in a s e c u r i ty e s t a t e .
a c c e s s t o it .

When I say had

I never used it myself and I am not aware of

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s u s i n g i t b u t w h e n I s a y w e h a d a c c e s s is w h e n fr o m

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
ti m e t o ti m e I p ic k e d u p G e n e r a l L a z a r u s to g o t o t h is p a r tic u la r
p r e m is e s fo r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o h a v e m e e ti n g s w i t h G e n e r a l M d lu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h i s p r o p e r t y a ls o s u p p o s e d t o b e a s a f e h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u - a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t it w a s n o t u s e d a s a

safe house?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir it w a s - i t w a s u s e d
o n ly b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i a s f a r a s I k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if h e w a s t h e o n ly o n e u s i n g i t - i t c o u l d n o t b e a
10

s a f e h o u s e o r it c o u l d b e a s a fe h o u s e s t il l ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir, I - I d o n o t k n o w

w h a t - w h a t - h o w G e n e r a l M d l u l i m a d e u s e o f th is p r e m is e s o r w h o
w e n t t o th is p r e m i s e s i f h e h a d m e e ti n g s th e r e e t c e t e r a .

I am not

aware.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o o n t h e r e c o r d s o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e i t w a s
r e fl e c t e d a s a s a fe h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t y o u d o k n o w is th a t o n l y G e n e r a l M d l u l i

u s e d i t o u t o f th e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e p e r s o n n e l?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

But you do not know how he used it.

Whether he

u s e d i t f o r a n y l e g i ti m a t e C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e w o r k o r n o t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I - I cannot say for sure

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W o u l d - w o u l d s o m e b o d y a t h is l e v e l a s f a r a s

Page 73 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
y o u k n o w b e i n v o lv e d i n u s i n g a s a f e h o u s e f o r a n y l e g i t i m a te C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e w o r k ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t i s p o s s i b l e . I a m
n o t s u r e . I d o n o t k n o w. I a m n o t v e r y c l e a r w it h r e g a r d s t o t h e p o l ic y
b u t it is p o s s i b le y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Colonel Naidoo could you please have a look
a t t h e d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 111 a n d t h e n m o r e p a r ti c u l a r a t p a g e 11 4 .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I a m - I a m s o r r y. L e t m e ju s t s a y b u t t h is h o u s e i t

w a s n o t th e p r o p e r t y o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i t h a t w a s u s e d b y C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e a s a s a fe h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. T h e - t h e o n e
t h a t I r e f e r r e d t o o r t e s ti f ie d to p r e v io u s ly t h a t - th a t p r o p e r ty b e lo n g e d
t o G e n e r a l M d l u li . T h a t w a s i n G o r d o n ’s B a y i n th e W e s t e r n C a p e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h is o n e w e a r e r e fe r r i n g
t o is i n C l e a r w a t e r E s t a t e i n G a u t e n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

20

C o l o n e l N a i d o o if y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o t h e

le a s e a g r e e m e n t a p p e a r i n g a t p a g e 111 …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e n i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e 11 4 is i t
c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a ls o w i tn e s s e s t h i s l e a s e a g r e e m e n t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And dated 10 November 2009?

Page 74 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w i t is a ls o a l e a s e c o n c lu d e w i t h D a e z

Tr a d in g a n d i t y o u l o o k a t p a g e 11 2 i t is f o r a p e r i o d o f o n e y e a r f r o m
1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 9 t o 3 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 f o r 1 7 5 0 0 p e r m o n t h p l u s VAT.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w w h o w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e f u r n i s h i n g o f
t h is s a f e h o u s e ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

if

I

remember

c o r r e c t ly I a ls o w a s r e s p o n s i b l e fo r - th is w a s q u i te a - a b i g h o u s e . I t
w a s i n a n u p m a r k e t s e c u r i ty e s t a t e .

I also ordered furniture and

g e n e r a l a p p l ia n c e s f o r t h is p a r tic u la r p r e m is e s .

A l s o a g a i n fr o m

M a s o n s F u r n i t u r e - s u p p l ie r t o C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .

A b ig s c r e e n T V

s u r r o u n d s y s te m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A r e w e n o w o n p a g e 3 0 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t G e n e r a l L a l a ’s f l a t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h o n e a r e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t n o w ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e a r e n o w d e a li n g w i t h p a g e 2 9 p a r a g r a p h

127.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h th a t s ti ll r e l a t e s t o th a t p r o p e r t y a t C l e a r w a t e r

E s ta t e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

Page 75 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h p a r a g r a p h 1 2 7 a t t h e

b o t t o m o f p a g e 2 9 t o th e to p o f p a g e 3 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a id o o c a n y o u j u s t d e t a il w h a t

f u r n i tu r e y o u r e c a l l p u r c h a s i n g fo r t h i s h o u s e …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e v a lu e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

Ye s

C h a ir.

As

I

m e n ti o n e d I - I - t h e h o m e w a s f u r n is h e d a s a r e s i d e n c e C h a ir. A s a n y
n o r m a l r e s id e n c e w o u l d b e .

I w a s r e s p o n s i b le f o r - f o r p u r c h a s in g o r

a c q u ir in g t h is - t h e fu r n i tu r e .

T h is w a s d o n e th r o u g h M a s o n s C h a ir.

O u r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t h a t C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e u s e d .
T h e y w e r e s i t u a t e d in B e n o n i.

A s fa r a s I k n o w a T V, a

s u r r o u n d s o u n d D S T V, fr id g e , w a s h i n g m a c h i n e a n d C h a ir g e n e r a l s m a l l
a p p li a n c e s c r o c k e r y.

C h a ir i t - i t w a s f u r n is h e d a s a - a s a n o r m a l

h o u s e w o u l d b e fu r n is h e d .

B a s ic a l ly fr o m s c r a t c h .

Ev e r y t h i n g w a s

p u r c h a s e d fo r - f o r t h is p a r tic u la r h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u h a v e a n y id e a h o w m u c h w a s s p e n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n e s ti m a t e a g a i n a b o u t

R 1 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 b u t li k e I s a id p r e v i o u s ly i f t h e d o c u m e n t s a r e s h o w n t o
m e I c a n c o n fir m .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And Colonel Naidoo who was responsible for

t h e u p k e e p a n d m a i n t e n a n c e o f th is h o u s e ?

Page 76 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r I w a s r e s p o n s ib l e

C h a ir f o r - fo r th e u p k e e p o f t h is p a r ti c u la r h o u s e . I w a s a ls o r e q u ir e d
t o e n s u r e th a t w h e n G e n e r a l M d lu li w a s t h e r e t h a t t h e h o u s e w a s
s t o c k e d w i t h g r o c e r i e s . A ls o p a i d o u t - a s I p r e v i o u s ly t e s t i fi e d - a l s o
p a i d o u t f r o m f u n d s - f r o m f u n d s fr o m th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Do you recall who you would see at the house
- r e s i d in g a t t h e h o u s e d u r i n g th e t i m e th a t y o u c o n d u c te d th is
m a in t e n a n c e a n d d r o p p e d o ff g r o c e r ie s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a t s o m e s ta g e I - I
10

a m j u s t g o i n g t o c h e c k t h e F M n u m b e r s . I r e m e m b e r t h i s c l e a r ly C h a ir.
T h i s w a s a n in c i d e n t w h e r e I h a d d r o p G e n e r a l M d l u l i o ff a t - I - I
p ic k e d h i m u p fr o m - f r o m h is o ff ic e .

T h a t i s t h e C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e

O ff ic e in P r e t o r ia a n d I d r o p p e d h i m o ff a t t h i s p a r tic u la r s a f e h o u s e
being Clearwater Estate.
W h e n I g o t t h e r e C h a ir I n o tic e d t w o i n d iv id u a l s w h o m I
m e n ti o n a s F M 2 4 a n d F M 2 9 .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I a ls o r e c a ll s e e in g t w o

c h i l d r e n a t t h i s p r e m is e s C h a ir. Th is w a s f a m ily o f G e n e r a l M d lu li .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n o th e r i n s t a n c e C h a i r

t h is p a r tic u l a r in d i v i d u a l h a d c o m e f o r a tr a i n i n g c o u r s e t o P r e to r i a a n d
I h a d t o - i t w a s - I t h i n k i t w a s o v e r t w o d a y s . I h a d t o fe t c h h e r f r o m
t h is p r e m is e s a n d t a k e h e r fo r h e r c o u r s e a n d d r o p h e r o ff in t h e
a ft e r n o o n a t th e s a m e p r e m is e s .

T h o s e w e r e t h e tw o in c i d e n t s I w a s

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
p e r s o n a l ly in v o lv e d w it h o r h a v e r e c o l le c ti o n o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C o l o n e l N a id o o .

Could you now

d e a l w it h G e n e r a l L a l a ’s fl a t i n R o n d e b o s c h C a p e To w n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s

C h a ir.

C h a ir

I

m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r t h a t I f l e w t o C a p e To w n t o in s p e c t t h e p r o p e r ty o f
General Mdluli.

O n t h i s s a m e tr i p C h a ir a ls o a n in s t r u c t i o n f r o m

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s I w e n t to G e n e r a l L a l a ’s f la t s i t u a t e d in R o n d e b o s c h
C a p e To w n .
T h i s p a r tic u la r p r e m is e s w a s a ls o r e n t e d a s a s a fe h o u s e

10

t h r o u g h C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e a ls o t h r o u g h D a e z Tr a d i n g .
m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r th e s a m e s c e n a r i o .

C h a ir a s I

It w a s t h r o u g h D a e z Tr a d i n g .

T h e s a m e p r o c e d u r e . I w o u l d g e t - a t t h e e n d o f e a c h m o n th I w o u l d
c o l l e c t t h e r e n t fr o m M r A p p a ls a m y a n d h a n d o v e r t h e c a s h to - t o
G e n e r a l L a l a . T h is w a s R 6 0 0 0 , 0 0 p e r m o n th .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r th e r e w a s a - a p o l ic y

a p p lic a b l e a t C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e s a y i n g w h e th e r o r n o t p e o p l e e m p l o y e d
within

Crime

I n t e l li g e n c e

c o u ld

provide

safe

houses

to

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e - c o u l d h a v e a le a s e w i t h C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e - c o u l d h a v e
20

le a s e s w i t h C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e ?
D o y o u - d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a n y p o li c y o r a n y
p r e s c r i p t t h a t w a s a p p l ic a b l e w h i c h p r o h i b i t e d t h is ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir, I - I a m n o t t o o

s u r e r e g a r d in g t h e p o l ic y w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e s e p r e m is e s .
s a y C h a ir. I a m n o t t o o s u r e .

Page 78 of 170

So I cannot

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W h a t t h e p o lic y e x a c tl y

was.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t a r e y o u a b le t o s a y w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e

m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e s e l e a s e s w e r e h a n d le d w e r e a s a f e h o u s e
b e l o n g e d t o s o m e b o d y w i t h i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e . A r e y o u a b le t o s a y
t h a t t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h th e y w e r e h a n d le d w a s n o t tr a n s p ir e d e v e n
w i t h i n t h e c o n t e x t o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e w h e r e a lo t i s n o t s u p p o s e d t o
b e tr a n s p a r e n t?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e

actual owners of the properties were not revealed. It was done through
D a e z Tr a d in g . S o t h is in i ts e l f w a s n o t tr a n s p a r e n t b e c a u s e it d i d n o t
r e v e a l w h o th e r e a l o w n e r s w e r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir in te r ms o f t h e

tr a n s p a r e n c y i t w a s n o t C h a i r b e c a u s e i t w a s a c t u a ll y t h e - t h e o w n e r s the real owners of the actual properties were concealed.

As I

p r e v i o u s ly te s t i fi e d t o M r J o h n A p p a l s a m y h is c o m p a n y D a e z Tr a d i n g
s ig n e d a s t h e o w n e r s o f o r - o r r a t h e r b e i n g t h e o w n e r o f t h e s e
20

p r o p e r ti e s .
S o i t w a s in - in e s s e n c e n o t tr a n s p a r e n t b e c a u s e h e d i d n o t
r e v e a l w h o th e r e a l o w n e r s w e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w e r e t h e r e o t h e r s a fe h o u s e s w h i c h C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e le a s e d w h i c h w e r e d e a l t w it h d i ff e r e n t ly fr o m t h e w a y t h a t
le a s e s o f s a f e h o u s e o w n e d b y p e r s o n n e l f r o m w i th in C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e

Page 79 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
w e r e d e a l t w it h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir.

I

am not certain.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. L e t m e p u t t h e q u e s ti o n d i ffe r e n tl y. Wa s th e

r o l e p l a y e d b y D a e z Tr a d i n g c o n f in e d a s w h ic h a s y o u s a y p u r p o r te d t o
be the owner of the premises.
w h ic h

belonged

to

W a s i t l i mi t e d t o th o s e s a f e h o u s e s

General Lala

and

General Mdluli

and

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d y o u m u s t j u s t t e ll m e i f I a m p u t ti n g s o m e b o d y ’s
n a m e i n t o t h is t h a t w a s n o t i n v o l v e d ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a s f a r a s r e c a l l - I
c a n r e c a l l i t is n o t - it is n o t j u s t t o t h e s e p r e m is e s C h a ir. T h e r e w a s
a n o t h e r p r e m is e s t h a t w a s - t h a t w a s le a s e d i n t h is p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u - y o u s a i d t h a t t h e r o le p l a y e d b y D a e z
Tr a d in g

ensure

that

the

tr u e

owners

of

the

s a fe

houses

of

General Mdluli and General Lala and General Lazarus was concealed.
T h e ir - th e ir i d e n t it y - t h e ir id e n ti ti e s w e r e c o n c e a l e d …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : By v ir t u e o f th e fa c t t h a t D a e z Tr a d i n g w a s r e fl e c t e d
a s th e o w n e r o r l e s s o r in r e g a r d t o t h e s e l e a s e h o u s e s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s u g g e s te d t o m e t h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t th e r e
w o u ld b e o t h e r h o u s e s o f s a f e h o u s e s w h e r e th e tr u e o w n e r w o u l d b e
known.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o m e th in g y o u k n o w a s a m a t te r o f f a c t ?

Page 80 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I - I would assume so

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o y o u c a n n o t k n o w i t a s a m a t te r o f f a c t i f y o u
assume.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : P a r d o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u k n o w a s a - a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t
t h a t th e r e w e r e o t h e r s a f e h o u s e s w h ic h w e r e le a s e d b y C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e w h e r e t h e o w n e r o f t h e s a fe h o u s e w o u l d b e k n o w n . T h e
id e n t i ty o f t h e o w n e r o f th e s a fe h o u s e w o u l d b e k n o w n b e c a u s e th e r e
10

w o u ld b e - b e c a u s e D a e z Tr a d i n g w o u l d n o t b e - h a v e a n y r o le o r t h e r e
w o u ld b e n o o t h e r c o m p a n y p la y i n g a s i m il a r r o l e i n t h a t l e a s e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

P a r d o n m e C h a ir.

I am

n o t . I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d th e q u e s t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Maybe …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o r r y. I a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e I a m c o n fu s i n g y o u .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ja.

I am - I am a bit

c o n fu s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No, no.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e t r y a n d - a n d p u t t h is m o r e c l e a r l y. W h a t - a r e
y o u s u g g e s t in g t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d
G e n e r a l L a l a a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a v i n g t h e ir h o u s e s l e a s e d to C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e u s e - u s i n g D a e z Tr a d i n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

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C h a ir

it

was

not

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
General Lazarus’

house

C h a ir.

It

was

just

General Mdluli

and

General Lala.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I a m - I a m g r a t e f u l fo r t h a t b e c a u s e I w a s n o t
s u r e a n d I d i d n o t s a y e a r l ie r d o p l e a s e d o t e ll m e i f I a m p u tt i n g
s o m e b o d y ’s n a m e i n t o s o m e t h i n g w h e r e h e m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n
in v o lv e d .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a r e y o u s u g g e s ti n g t h a t t h e r e w a s a n y t h i n g w r o n g
w i t h t h e l e a s i n g o f t h e ir p r o p e r ti e s in t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h i t w a s d o n e
10

t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a s s a f e h o u s e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir l ik e I m e n t io n e d

e a r l ie r I a m n o t s u r e w h a t th e p o li c y i s b u t i n t e r m s o f t h e t r a n s p a r e n c y
y e s . I s a id t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g w r o n g b e c a u s e t h e tr u e o w n e r s o f t h is
p r o p e r ty w e r e n o t - w e r e n o t r e v e a le d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t o b v i o u s l y i n t e r m s o f
t h e p o li c y I d o n o t w h a t th e p o lic y s a y s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u s e e a n d o f c o u r s e y o u k n o w t h is m u c h

b e t t e r t h a n I d o , w e a r e d e a l i n g w i t h C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e w h e r e o n e
20

u n d e r s t a n d s i f th e r e i s n ’ t m u c h t r a n s p a r e n c y a b o u t m a n y t h i n g s , y o u
understand that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w h y is i t n o t p o s s ib le th a t t h e in v o lv e m e n t o f

D a e z Tr a d in g mi g h t b e l e g i t i m a te i n s o fa r a s i t w o u l d e n s u r e th a t m a y b e
a n y b o d y f r o m o u t s i d e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e w h o l o o k s a t th e , w h o

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
b e c o m e s a w a r e o f t h e l e a s e s h o u l d n o t k n o w t h a t t h is w a s a s a f e h o u s e
o r s o m e t h in g l ik e t h a t ? O r l e t m e p u t i t d i ff e r e n tly d o y o u k n o w o f a n y
safe

house

th a t

was

le a s e d

by

Crime

In t e l li g e n c e

w i th o u t

th e

in v o lv e m e n t o f a n y c o m p a n y o r D a e z Tr a d i n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r – d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r th e

p o s i ti o n is n o t t h a t a ll s a f e h o u s e s t h a t w e r e l e a s e d b y C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e i n v o lv e d D a e z Tr a d i n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

N o C h a ir i t w a s li m i t e d ,

D a e z Tr a d i n g th e l e a s e s d o n e t h r o u g h D a e z Tr a d i n g w e r e li m i t e d to a
f e w s a f e h o u s e s i n c lu d in g th e t w o t h a t I m e n t io n e d n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Or

rather

the

three,

s o r r y, i t w a s th e th r e e , t h e o n e o f G e n e r a l M d lu li , o n e o f t h e G e n e r a l
L a ll a a n d th e o n e I j u s t s p o k e o f n o w is C l e a r w a t e r Es t a te .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t d i d y o u k n o w a n y s a f e h o u s e s a t a ll t h a t

w e r e l e a s e d b y C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e o th e r t h a n t h e s e o n e s ? I w il l a s k t h e
q u e s t io n a g a in , d o y o u k n o w o f a n y s a f e h o u s e s t h a t w e r e le a s e d b y
C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e o th e r t h a n t h e o n e s y o u h a v e j u s t m e n t io n e d th a t
20

w e r e o w n e d b y G e n e r a l M d lu li , G e n e r a l L a l la a n d th e o n e a t C le a r – is
it C l e a r w a t e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

as

in

general,

y o u ’r e s p e a k i n g a s in g e n e r a l o r p a r t ic u l a r l y t h r o u g h D a e z Tr a d in g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll l e t ’s s ta r t w i t h e v e n i f t h e y i n v o l v e D a e z Tr a d in g
a r e th e r e a n y o t h e r s a fe h o u s e s t h a t y o u k n e w o r y o u k n o w t h a t o th e r

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
t h a n th e s e o n e s t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a i r th e r e w e r e

m a n y, th e r e w e r e m a n y p r e m is e s .
CHAIRPERSON: There were many others?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y a ll in v o lv e D a e z Tr a d in g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w e r e s o m e w h i c h d i d n o t i n v o l v e D a e z Tr a d i n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o t s o m e , m o s t th is w a s
10

– D a e z Tr a d in g w a s in v o lv e d i n a v e r y s m a ll p e r c e n ta g e o f t h e b i g g e r
p ic t u r e , i t w a s p r o b a b l y f o u r o r f iv e p r e m i s e s i n to t a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a r e y o u a b l e t o g iv e m e a r o u g h e s ti m a t e o f t h e
total number of safe houses that you might have been aware of at the
ti m e y o u jo in e d th e w i t n e s s p r o te c t i o n p r o g r a m m e , ju s t r o u g h ly a r e w e
t a lk in g a b o u t 2 0 a r e w e t a l k i n g a b o u t 1 5 m o r e o r le s s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

th a t ’s

a

to u g h

q u e s t io n b u t I’ ll tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

It doesn’t have to be exact I just want to have an

id e a .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I

w o u ld

s a y,

C h a ir,

lo o k in g a t n in e p r o v i n c e s , w h e n I s a y n i n e p r o v in c e s , h e a d o ffi c e is
a ls o r e g a r d e d a s a p r o v i n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I would say at least

between seven and eight because each operational team would have to

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
operate out of a safe house.

I w o u l d s a y a t le a s t te n p e r p r o v i n c e

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te n p e r p r o v i n c e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w o u l d s a y a v e r y r o u g h
e s ti m a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a t t a k e s u s t o s o m e t h i n g i n t h e r e g io n o f 1 0 0
s a f e h o u s e s , is t h a t r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o u t o f th e s e s a fe h o u s e s a b o u t h o w m a n y w o u l d
10

y o u s a y h a d D a e z Tr a d in g a s – r e f l e c te d a s th e o w n e r o f t h e s a fe
houses?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I w o u ld s a y fo u r o r fi v e

o v e r a p e r i o d o f ti m e , I th i n k f iv e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t n o w t h e o t h e r o n e s d i d y o u k n o w

w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s s o m e o t h e r c o m p a n y t h a t p l a y e d th e s a m e r o le in
r e g a r d t o t h e m a s D a e z Tr a d in g h a d p l a y e d in r e g a r d t o t h e fo u r o r fiv e
o r d id y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s n o s u c h c o m p a n y w h i c h p l a y e d a s i m i l a r
role?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

I can’t say there was no

s u c h c o m p a n y C h a ir, b e c a u s e I ’ m n o t a w a r e o f i t s o I c a n ’ t s a y t h e r e
w a s n o s u c h o t h e r c o m p a n y t h a t p l a y e d a s i m il a r r o le t o D a e z Tr a d i n g
in t e r m s o f th e s a fe h o u s e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y s o t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n , t h e r e m i g h t n o t

have been?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I’ m t r y i n g t o e s t a b lis h w h a t f e a tu r e s o n e w o u l d
lo o k f o r, f o r a l e a s e o f a s a f e h o u s e b y C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w h e r e th is
w a s l e g i ti m a t e th e r e w a s n o th i n g ir r e g u l a r. W h e t h e r t h e m e r e p r e s e n c e
o f a c o m p a n y w o u l d i n d ic a t e t h a t i t ’s ir r e g u l a r o r y o u c o u l d h a v e a l is t
w i t h a c o m p a n y p l a y in g t h e r o l e t h a t D a e z Tr a d i n g w a s p l a y i n g b u t s ti ll
t h a t l is t b e in g r e g u la r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It is p o s s i b l e C h a ir y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is p o s s i b l e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o if w e t h e n c o m e b a c k t o th e s e h o u s e s th a t

y o u h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t t h a t b e l o n g e d t o G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d G e n e r a l
L a ll a , w h a t m a k e s y o u s a y, i n th is p a r tic u l a r c a s e in r e g a r d t o t h e s e
p a r t ic u l a r s a f e h o u s e s , t h is w a s ir r e g u la r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I say that Chair on the

b a c k g r o u n d o f w h a t I’v e t e s ti f ie d t o e a r l ie r, i n t e r m s o f th e c a s h b e i n g
g iv e n t o m e o n a m o n t h ly b a s is t o b u y M r J o h n A p p e l s a m i , t h i s h a s
s u b s e q u e n t ly h a n d e d o v e r to G e n e r a l M d l u l i o f R 7 0 0 0 a n d G e n e r a l
L a ll a o f R 6 0 0 0 r e s p e c ti v e ly.

S o i t i s m y b e l ie f t h a t h a d – t h is w a s

p u r e ly d o n e a s t o n o t to r e v e a l w h o t h e a c t u a l o w n e r s w e r e in t e r m s o f
20

p a y i n g th e m c a s h a s o p p o s e d to t h e m o n ie s b e in g E F T o r tr a n s f e r r e d t o
t h e ir a c c o u n ts d ir e c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w, s o i t’s th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e
– p a y m e n ts o f t h e r e n t w e r e m a d e t h a t m a k e s y o u c o n c l u d e th a t t h e s e
le a s e s w e r e ir r e g u la r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n r e g a r d to l e a s e s o f s a f e h o u s e s th a t w o u l d

h a v e b e e n r e g u la r, d o y o u k n o w w h a t th e p r o c e s s w o u l d h a v e b e e n ,
t h e y – w o u l d p a y m e n ts h a v e b e e n d o n e t h r o u g h E F T o r i s t h e r e
something you know?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

P a y m e n ts c a n b e d o n e

e i t h e r v ia – i t w i ll d e fi n i t e l y n o t b e d o n e b y E F T C h a ir, i t w o u l d b e
either by cash or cheque from company X.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s a y b y c a s h s o t h e m e r e fa c t th a t t h e r e n t
is p a i d i n c a s h w o u ld n ’ t , o n it ’s o w n s u g g e s t a n y th in g i r r e g u l a r ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t ’s – l ik e I s a i d t h a t

p r o c e s s i s i n p la c e C h a ir w h e r e c a s h c a n b e p a i d b u t i t ’s j u s t m y b e l ie f
t h a t i t w a s d o n e i n t h is p r o c e s s s o th e s e i n d iv id u a l s a r e n o t e x p o s e d a s
t h e tr u e o w n e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e c o r d s o f C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e , if o n e w e r e t o –
le t ’s a s s u m e t h a t o n e w o u l d h a v e t o h a v e a c c e s s t o th e r e c o r d s , a r e
y o u s a y i n g th a t t h e r e c o r d s w i ll n o t r e v e a l t h a t i n r e g a r d t o t h is s p e c i f ic
s a f e h o u s e s G e n e r a l M d lu li w a s t h e o w n e r o f , i s i t o n e o r t w o fl a ts –
p r o p e r ti e s a n d G e n e r a l L a ll a w a s t h e o w n e r i n r e g a r d t o a n o t h e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

Chair nowhere in the

r e c o r d s w o u l d y o u f i n d G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s n a m e o r G e n e r a l L a ll a ’s n a m e
o r a n y w a y h a v i n g a n y l in k s to t h e m a t a l l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u s a y i n r e g a r d t o o t h e r le a s e h o u s e s

w h e n e v e r y th i n g is r e g u l a r, o n e s h o u l d b e a b l e to f in d r e c o r d s o f th e
tr u e o w n e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

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Ye s C h a ir, y o u w o u l d b e

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
able to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t , th a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u ld y o u

p l e a s e n o w d e a l w i t h th e M o r g a n R i d g e p r o p e r t y i n B o k s b u r g r e f e r r e d
t o o n p a g e 3 1 p a r a g r a p h 1 3 7 a n d 1 3 8 o f y o u r w it n e s s s t a t e m e n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir th is w a s a

p r o p e r ty l e a s e d f r o m C L D ic k s , C h a ir C L D ic k s i s th e d a u g h te r o f J o e
M a r x , a s I t e s ti f ie d e a r l ie r Mr J o e M a r x i s th e o w n e r o f N e w W o r ld
M o t o r s , N e w W o r l d M o t o r s is a s u p p l i e r o r s e r v ic e p r o v id e r t o c o m p a n y
10

X . C h a ir, I m y s e l f n e g o t i a t e d a n a g r e e m e n t w i th M r M a r x t h i s w a s d o n e
o n in s tr u c ti o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s f o r th e a c t u a l l e a s e t o b e i n fl a te d b y
R2 000 per month.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o u l ti m a t e ly t h e r e n t w a s s u p p o s e d b e h o w

m u c h a n d i t g o t in f la t e d b y R 2 0 0 0 t o b e h o w m u c h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir, I’ m n o t s u r e t h e

e x a c t a m o u n t o f th e r e n t , b u t w h a t e v e r t h e r e n t w a s , m y i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t
it b e i n fl a te d b y R 2 0 0 0 . I f I’ m s h o w n t h e d o c u m e n ts , I c a n c o n f ir m t h a t
it f o r th is p a r t ic u l a r p r e m is e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So

b a s ic a lly

what

h a p p e n e d h e r e , t h e f u n d s w e r e a c c u m u l a te d o v e r a p e r i o d o f e v e r y
m o n th , th a t R 2 0 0 0 w o u l d a c c u m u l a t e a n d o v e r a p e r i o d o f a y e a r y o u –
if t h e c a lc u l a ti o n s a r e d o n e i t ’s R 2 4 0 0 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
o n i n s tr u c ti o n a g a in f r o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a t t h e e n d o f t h e y e a r w h i c h
w a s R 2 4 0 0 0 a n d th is w e d i v i d e d b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s .

When I say

o u r s e lv e s i t’s b e tw e e n m y s e lf a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s is t h a t t h e R 2 0 0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t ’s th e R 2 0 0 0 p e r

m o n th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Over a period of the

y e a r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y s o i t w a s s p l i t b e t w e e n th e t w o o f y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

That

is

correct

C h a ir … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON: 1000/1000?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I m u s t a l s o m a k e m e n ti o n
C h a ir a t t h e e n d o f t h e y e a r w e w o u l d c o l le c t t h e m o n e y b u t in t h i s
in s t a n c e I th i n k t h i s p a r ti c u la r y e a r I t o o k a n a d v a n c e fr o m M r M a r x ,
t h is a l s o a n d in s t r u c ti o n fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s C h a ir b e c a u s e h e w a s
g o i n g o n a n o v e r s e a s tr i p , h e w a s a c c o m p a n y i n g M r M a r i m u t h u o n a
tr i p o v e r s e a s a n d h e i n s tr u c t e d m e t o g e t a n a d v a n c e fr o m M r J o e M a r x
20

t o t h e a m o u n t o f R 1 0 0 0 0 , s o t h is w o u ld b e s e t tl e d o b v i o u s ly i t w o u l d
b e R 1 0 0 0 0 le s s e n d o f t h e y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y i t w o u ld b e s e t t le d b y m a k in g u s e o f t h e r e n t
o r s e p a r a t e ly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
C h a ir.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So

in s te a d

of

…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON: The R2 000?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d

if i t a c c u m u l a te d o v e r th e t w e l v e m o n th p e r i o d i t w o u ld b e R 2 4 0 0 0 b u t
in t h i s c a s e i t w o u l d b e R 1 0 0 0 0 l e s s b e c a u s e d u r i n g t h e y e a r I h a d
c o l l e c t e d a n a m o u n t o f R 1 0 0 0 0 fr o m M r M a r x w h ic h I s u b s e q u e n tly
h a n d e d to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , th is w a s o n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ in s t r u c t i o n a s
10

h e w a s a c c o m p a n y i n g M r M a r i m u t h u o n a n o v e r s e a s tr ip , s o h e n e e d e d
some cash.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o i n e s s e n c e a t th e e n d
o f t h e y e a r in s te a d o f g e t ti n g R 2 4 0 0 0 i t w a s o n ly R 1 4 0 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o C o l o n e l N a i d o o if I ’ m u n d e r s t a n d i n g y o u

c o r r e c t ly a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t i n e s s e n c e , t h is e x tr a a m o u n t o f R 2 0 0 0 a
m o n th w a s h e l d b y M r J o e M a r x , th e n t o b e c o l le c t e d b y G e n e r a l
Lazarus at the end of the year? So that R24 000 would accumulate and
20

if h e h a d n ’ t ta k e n a n a d v a n c e h e c o u l d t h e n g o a n d s a y, o k a y n o w I ’ m
c o m i n g t o f e tc h m y R 2 4 0 0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A ll y o u h a v e s a i d M is s

W e n tz e l is c o r r e c t e x c e p t i t w a s n ’ t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h o c o l le c t e d t h e
m o n e y i t w a s m y s e l f.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n h is b e h a l f?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s th e m o n e y w o u l d

t h e n b e s p li t b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e s p li t o n a 5 0 / 5 0 b a s is o r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w c o u l d y o u d e a l w i t h w h a t is c a ll e d th e

p r o p e r ty a t X B u s in e s s P a r k ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

C h a ir t h is is t h e s a m e

m a n n e r C h a ir a s I ’v e m e n t io n e d to y o u p r e v io u s ly, t h is w a s – b u t i n t h is
c a s e th is w a s n o t – Mr J o e M a r x ’s d a u g h t e r w a s a p r iv a te i n d i v i d u a l,
t h is c o m p a n y – t h i s p r e m i s e s w a s r e n t e d th r o u g h D a e z Tr a d i n g , M r
A p p e ls a m i a g a i n . G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n s tr u c t e d m e t o n e g o t ia t e , o r r a t h e r
n o t to n e g o t i a t e , t o i n fo r m Mr A p p e l s a m i t h a t i n t h e s a m e p r o c e s s a s I
m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r i n t h e p r e v io u s – w it h r e g a r d t o t h e p r e v i o u s s a f e
h o u s e , t h e r e n t w a s i n f l a t e d C h a ir a n d a s p r e v i o u s ly m e n t io n e d i t w o u l d
a c c u m u la t e , th a t a m o u n t w o u l d b e k e p t b y M r A p p e ls a m i f o r t h e u s e o f
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , I c a n ’t r e c a ll i f I a ls o c o l le c te d m o n e y f r o m t h is
p a r t ic u l a r tr a n s a c ti o n .

20

H o w e v e r, o n o n e o c c a s i o n C h a ir, G e n e r a l

L a z a r u s i n s tr u c t e d m e t o c o l le c t R 6 0 0 0 fr o m M r A p p e ls a m i w h ic h I
s u b s e q u e n t ly h a n d e d o f t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , t h i s a ls o C h a ir, w a s a ls o a
tr i p – h e w a n t e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a n te d c a s h b e c a u s e h e w a s a l s o
g o i n g o n a n o t h e r tr ip w i t h Mr M a r i m u t h u .
around 2010.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, M is s W e n t z e l?

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C h a ir i f I r e c a ll th is w a s

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C o lo n e l N a id o o , c a n y o u n o w d e a l

w i t h Mr M a r i m u t h u ’s p r e m is e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S u r e C h a ir a s I t e s t i fi e d

t o p r e v io u s ly G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a d s tr u c k u p a r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th M r
M a r i m u t h u , b a s ic a l ly t o g e t a e a r to – o r g e t a e a r f r o m M r B h e k i C e l e
a t t h a t s ta g e , t h is w a s w h e n t h e r e la t io n s h i p b e tw e e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
a n d M r M a r i m u t h u is a lr e a d y e s t a b l is h e d , v a r io u s p r o p e r ti e s w e r e a ls o
r e n t e d fr o m M r M a r i m u t h u C h a ir t h e a m o u n t t o t a lly in t h e v i c i n i ty o f
R 2 0 0 0 0 0 t o R 2 5 0 0 0 0 C h a ir, a l l o f th is i n fo r m a t i o n C h a i r w a s r e l a y e d
10

to me by FM08. At that stage FM08 was the person that was in charge
o f t h e s e p r e m is e s t h a t w e r e b e i n g r e n te d b y o r r a t h e r f r o m M r
M a r i m u t h u b y C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s d id y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e b e i n g r e n t e d a s
s a f e h o u s e s o r t h e y w e r e b e i n g r e n t e d fo r o th e r p u r p o s e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

With – I assumed that it

w o u ld b e f o r s a f e – fo r t h e u s e o f s a f e , a s a s a f e h o u s e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay and do you know how many properties were

b e i n g r e n te d b y Mr M a r i m u t h u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

C h a ir I ’ m n o t c e r ta i n

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ’ r e n o t c e r t a i n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I’ m n o t c e r ta i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e r e t h e y w e r e lo c a t e d o r a t l e a s t
some of them?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I c a n s a y fo r a fa c t

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
t h a t a t le a s t t w o o f t h e m w e r e in K Z N b e c a u s e I p e r s o n a l ly w e n t – I ’ m
n o t s u r e th e r e s t o f t h e m w h e r e t h e y w e r e s i tu a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t tw o o f th e s e w e r e i n
K Z N b e c a u s e I p e r s o n a l ly v is i t e d t h e s e p r o p e r t i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir ju s t fo r t h e r e c o r d

a s w e ll t h e p r o p e r t ie s t h a t I v is it e d , t h e s e w e r e n o t r e a d y, o r n o t
s u i t a b l e f o r o c c u p a ti o n a t t h a t s t a g e . I b r o u g h t th is t o th e a tt e n ti o n o f
10

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s C h a ir, I’ m n o t c e r t a i n w h a t m e a s u r e s h e t o o k a f t e r m e
in f o r m i n g h i m a b o u t t h e u n s u it a b i li ty r e g a r d i n g t h e s e tw o p r e m is e s th a t
I i n s p e c te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u v is i t e d th e s e t w o p r e m i s e s i n K Z N a n d y o u
f o u n d t h a t th e y w e r e n o t s u i t a b l e f o r u s e a t th a t s t a g e , d o y o u k n o w
w h e t h e r M r M a r i m u t h u w a s a lr e a d y b e in g p a i d r e n t f o r t h e m o r n o t
r e a l ly, o r w h e t h e r t h a t w a s b e f o r e a n y l e a s e s c o l d b e s i g n e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I c a n ’t s a y fo r

c e r t a i n th a t t h e s e w e r e a lr e a d y o n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e b o o k s , h o w e v e r, i f
t h e d o c u m e n ts a r e s h o w n t o m e a n d I c a n c r o s s - r e fe r e n c e i t to th e
20

fl ig h ts t h a t I t o o k to K Z N I c a n b e m o r e c e r t a in o r I c a n b e m o r e
precise.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r m o r e o r l e s s w h e n i t m u s t
h a v e b e e n w h e n y o u t o o k – u n d e r t o o k t h i s v is it t o t h o s e h o u s e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n
p r o b a b ly – p r o b a b ly la t e 2 0 1 0 o r e a r ly 2 0 11 I c a n ’ t b e c e r t a in .

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CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w a s i t o n e v i s i t w h e n y o u – o n e tr ip w h e n y o u

v is it e d b o t h o r w a s i t d i ff e r e n t tr i p s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t w a s o n o n e tr i p C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e tr ip o k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C o lo n e l N a id o o d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e r e

in K Z N t h e s e p r o p e r t ie s w e r e s i t u a t e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B o t h t h e s e p r o p e r ti e s

w e r e in U m h la n g a R o c k s , n o t f a r fr o m M r M a r i m u t h u ’s h o m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

A n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h y y o u fe l t th e y w e r e

u n s u i ta b le f o r o c c u p a ti o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r th e o n e p r o p e r t y, I
d i d n o t g o i n s i d e th e p r o p e r ty, t h e y a r d i ts e l f w a s u n k e m p t th e r e w a s
t h e b i g tr e e h a n g in g p a r ti a l ly o v e r th e r o o f , i t w a s g e n e r a l ly u n k e m p t , in
m y v i e w i t w a s n o t s a f e fo r a n y o n e t o i n h a b i t th a t p r o p e r ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

The

o th e r

one Chair

w h ic h w a s n o t f a r o ff fr o m t h e o n e t h a t I’ m s p e a k i n g o f n o w, t h a t w a s i n
b e t t e r c o n d it i o n C h a ir, t h o u g h i t w a s n ’ t o c c u p a ti o n r e a d y, w h e n I s a y
t h a t , t h e t o il e ts w e r e n o t w o r k i n g , th e r e w e r e o t h e r it e m s o r I c a n
20

remember

c o r r e c tly

I’m

just

tr y i n g

to

r e - c a ll ,

pardon

me

C h a r … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a i d t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g t h a t w a s n o t w o r k in g ,

w h a t w a s t h a t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e t o il e ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h O k a y.

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

J u s t g e n e r a l ly, I c a n ’ t

g iv e y o u s p e c i fic s C h a ir b u t j u s t g e n e r a l ly th e p r o p e r ty w a s n o t
o c c u p a t io n r e a d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , y e s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u th e n te ll t h e C h a i r

a b o u t a p r o p e r ty t h a t w a s r e n t e d b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e f o r F M 1 8 a n d i f
y o u c o u ld e x p l a in w h o s h e w a s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir, th is w a s l a te r
in 2 0 11 I s a y th is b e c a u s e th is w a s c l o s e r t o th e t i m e th a t I w a s – I
10

t h i n k i t w a s a f e w m o n t h s b e fo r e I w a s a d m i t te d i n to th e w it n e s s
p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m m e .

C h a ir o n t h e i n s tr u c ti o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

a g a in t h r o u g h D e a z Tr a d in g a n a p a r t m e n t i n B o k s b u r g w a s p r o c u r e d f o r
t h e e x c l u s iv e u s e o f M r M a r i m u th u ’s g ir l fr i e n d , F M 1 8 w a s a p p o i n te d a s
a c l e r k i n C I a n d s h e w a s a p p o i n te d w i th in t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts C h a ir, i f I c a n
call it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A l l o f t h e s e th in g s w e r e

d o n e o n i n s tr u c t io n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir w h a t I ’ m g o i n g t o

e x p l a i n n e x t i s a ls o a n a s s u m p t i o n o n m y s i d e b u t I w il l e x p l a i n w h a t
happened.

I’ m a s s u m in g th a t b y t h a t s t a g e t h is w a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

a n d Mr M a r i m u t h u ’s r e la t io n s h ip w a s q u i t e w e ll e s ta b lis h e d b y t h e n , I
t h i n k i t w a s o v e r a y e a r o r a y e a r a n d a h a lf t h a t t h e y h a d fi r s t m e t
e a c h o t h e r a n d b e g a n t h e ir r e l a ti o n s h i p .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
M a r i m u t h u k n e w to o m u c h o f th e w o r k i n g s o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e a n d
m o r e s o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ a c tiv i ti e s h i m s e l f w i th i n C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e
a n d I s a y th is , i t ’s m y v ie w t h a t th is p a r ti c u l a r p r e m is e s w a s p r o c u r e d
f o r F M 1 8 C h a i r o n a n i n s tr u c t io n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , h e a s k e d m e t o –
s o r r y C h a ir I’ m j u s t tr y in g t o g a th e r m y th o u g h ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W h e n t h is p r o p e r ty w a s

p r o c u r e d v ia D a e z Tr a d i n g C h a ir o r r e n t e d v i a D a e z Tr a d i n g , h e a s k e d
m e t o g e t h o ld o f F M 11 a n d F M 0 3 t o a r r a n g e f o r c a m e r a s t o b e in s t a ll e d
10

in t h is p a r tic u la r p r e m is e s c o v e r tl y C h a ir, I m a y a d d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I s a y th is … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e s a y h e w a n t e d y o u t o d o t h is ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair I assumed that

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a n t e d to h a v e s o m e r e c o r d i n g o f M r M a r i m u t h u ’s
e n g a g e m e n ts w i th h is g ir l fr i e n d , w h o I ’v e m e n t io n e d e a r li e r F M 1 8 s o
t h a t p r o b a b ly h e c o u l d h a v e s o m e e v i d e n c e a g a in s t M r M a r i m u t h u
s h o u l d h e – s h o u l d t h e n e e d a r is e a n d I s a y t h is is j u s t m y v ie w C h a ir
b u t t h is is e x a c tly w h a t h a p p e n e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k i t ’s o n e o ’ c l o c k w e s h o u l d t a k e t h e l u n c h

a d j o u r n m e n t , w e ’l l a d j o u r n a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w o o ’ c l o c k , w e
adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr N a i d o o .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s M s W e n t z e l .
ADV

SUSAN

WENTZEL:

Th a n k

you.

Just

before

the

lunch

a d j o u r n m e n t w e w e r e d e a li n g w i th M r M u r i m u t h u ’s p r e m is e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I f w e c o u l d n o w d e a l w i th th e Is l a n d R o c k

c o v e r t fa c i li ty. C o u l d y o u p le a s e te ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h i s f a c il i ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a ir b e f o r e w e g o t h e r e
10

if I c a n j u s t c o m p l e te t h e p r e v i o u s t e s t i m o n y r e g a r d i n g p o in t 1 4 3 a n d
144.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I d i d m e n ti o n t h a t I m a d e
a n a s s u m p ti o n o n t h i s b u t I ju s t w a n t t o c la r i fy C h a ir. T h e a s s u m p ti o n
w a s n o t o n th e p r e m is e s w h e th e r t h e p r e m is e s w a s r e n t e d o r n o t . T h a t
w a s n o t t h e a s s u m p ti o n . I d e f in i te ly k n o w o f t h e p r e m is e s I w a s t h e r e
p e r s o n a l ly, p h y s i c a lly s a w t h e p r e m is e s .

I c a n a ls o p o i n t i t o u t . T h e

a s s u m p t io n w a s w h y th o s e c a m e r a s w e r e in s ta ll e d a n d t h a t w a s t h e
a s s u m p t io n t h a t I b e li e v e d th a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a n t e d th e s e c a m e r a s
20

t o b e i n s t a l le d s o t h a t h e c o u l d h a v e s o m e e v i d e n c e a g a in s t M r
M u r i m u t h u if t h e n e e d a r i s e s o r r o s e i n fu t u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I – I th in k t h a t w h e n y o u k n o w s o m e – t h a t

s o m e t h i n g w a s d o n e s u c h a s t h e i n s t a l la t i o n o f th e c a m e r a s b u t y o u d o
n o t k n o w th e r e a s o n f o r i t t o – th e m o t iv e b e h in d i t y o u s h o u l d l e a v e it
ju s t a t t h a t . To s a y y o u d o n o t k n o w w h y it w a s d o n e . Yo u m a y h a v e

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
y o u r a s s u m p ti o n s a n d s p e c u la t io n s b u t y o u a c t u a l ly d o n o t k n o w b u t i t
was done.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

Ye s C h a ir w il l d o s o .

Thanks.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u

n o w p l e a s e j u s t d e a l w i t h t h e Is l a n d R o c k f a c i li t y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : Ye s C h a ir. C h a ir t h is is
a f a c i li t y b e lo n g i n g t o t h e s t a t e . L ik e M s W e n tz e l m e n t i o n e d it i s c a l l e d
10

Is la n d R o c k .

I t is s i t u a te d in N o r t h e r n K w a z u lu N a t a l C h a ir.

I t is

t o t a lly s e c l u d e d . T h e o n ly w a y t o g e t t o th is p a r tic u la r p r e m is e is
t h r o u g h – b y m e a n s o f a 4 x 4 v e h ic l e o th e r w is e it is n o t a c c e s s i b l e a t
a l l. C h a i r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d m y s e l f a n d n u m e r o u s o t h e r o ffic i a ls o r
c o n fi d a n t e s w i th i n h i s i n n e r c ir c le v is it e d t h is p a r t ic u l a r p r e m is e s . W e
w o u ld g o t h e r e f o r h o li d a y s p a r tic u l a r ly o v e r l o n g w e e k e n d s , s c h o o l
h o li d a y s , o v e r C h r i s t m a s . L ik e I m e n t i o n e d C h a ir i t is n o t p o s s i b l e to
a c c e s s t h is p a r t ic u l a r f a c i li t y w i th a n o r m a l v e h i c l e .

Yo u n e e d a 4 x 4 .

H e n c e s t a te v e h i c l e s w e r e u s e d o n th e s e t r ip s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e d e s c r i b e t h e fa c i li ty w a s – w a s i t – h o w
20

many apartments – how many rooms and so on?

Te l l m e m o r e a b o u t

t h e fi s s u r e s o f t h e f a c ili t y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i t is b a s ic a lly

w o o d e n s t r u c t u r e s . T h e r e w a s o n e – o n e b i g o p e n a r e a w h ic h h o u s e d
t h e k i tc h e n a n d y o u r l iv in g a r e a s . O n e s m a l l s e c ti o n o f t h e m a in h o u s e
a ls o a c c o m m o d a t e d t h e c a m p m a n a g e r.

I f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly h e is

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C a p t a i n P e t e N e l. C h a ir a ls o is v e r y i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e t h is p a r t ic u l a r
in d i v i d u a l t h a t I m e n ti o n e d c a n c o n fir m a l l o f t h e s e v is i t s b e c a u s e h e
w a s a c a m p m a n a g e r f o r m a n y y e a r s t h e r e i n c l u d i n g t h e ti m e t h a t I a m
g o i n g t o t e s t if y t o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e r e w a s – if I

r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly C h a ir t h e r e w e r e f o u r o th e r r o o m s o r h o u s e s i f y o u
w a n t t o c a l l it .

E a c h o n e h a d tw o r o o m s i n e a c h – i n e a c h h o u s e .

C a b in s C h a ir n o t h o u s e s s o r r y i t w a s c a b i n s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m a d e o f w o o d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W o o d y e s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u r e s t i m a te o f h o w m a n y – m a y b e I s h o u l d
a s k y o u a b o u t h o w m a n y p e o p le o r h o u s e s o r fa m i li e s c o u ld i t
accommodate?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir I t h i n k i t w o u l d

e a s i ly a c c o m m o d a te 2 0 p e o p l e a t a t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a ti m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A t a n o ff ic i a l le v e l w h a t w a s i t fo r ?

What was it

s u p p o s e d to b e u s e d f o r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r I r e a lly d o n o t

k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you use it on a number of occasions?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair myself yes I went

t h e r e o n a f e w o c c a s i o n s w it h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d a t l e a s t o n t w o

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
o c c a s i o n s w it h m y f a m i ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

To g e th e r w i t h G e n e r a l

L a z a r u s a n d o t h e r m e m b e r s o f h i s i n n e r c ir c le .
CHAIRPERSON: And you say you had a manager?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a l l e d h i m – I s a y h i m it c a n b e h e r.

Camp

manager:
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

And was that somebody who was there

p e r m a n e n tly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t w o u l d t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n a fu ll t i m e b a s is ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w e r e t h e r e o t h e r e m p l o y e e s e m p lo y e d in t h e

f a c i li ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

There were three other

in d i v i d u a ls th a t w e r e e m p l o y e d t h e r e t h a t l iv e d o n t h e p r e m is e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h e n i t w a s n o t b e i n g u s e d w h a t w o u ld t h e y
20

be doing?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I c a n n o t s a y f o r c e r ta i n

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w. A n d t h e y w e r e b e i n g p a i d b y C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e o n l y ti m e – th e o n ly ti m e s w h e n y o u h a v e

s e e n i t b e i n g u s e d i t w a s b e in g u s e d b y p e r s o n n e l fr o m C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e f o r b a s ic a lly h o l id a y s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : M o s t ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w e e k e n d s a w a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : M o s tl y h o l i d a y s – m o s t ly
h o li d a y s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

But there were two

in c i d e n ts o r o c c a s i o n s w h e r e I c a n r e m e m b e r w h e r e a c t u a l w o r k w a s
d o n e . It w a s a g e t a w a y fo r t h e g r o u p o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e m e m b e r s I
t h i n k i t w a s f r o m t h e F i n a n c e s e c ti o n t h i s w a s fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’
o ffic e . W h e r e t h e y h a d I t h i n k i t w a s o v e r t w o d a y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d th is p r o p e r t y w a s n o t le a s e d b u t i t b e l o n g e d
t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h i s b e l o n g s to t h e
s t a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It b e l o n g e d t o th e s t a te ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s b e i n g u s e d b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Colonel Naidoo am I correct that
t h is p r o p e r ty is o n a b e a c h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d i d a n y o f t h e s u p p l ie r s t o C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e h a v e a c c e s s t o t h is p r o p e r ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

I p e r s o n a ll y

k n o w o f Mr J o e M a r k s b e c a u s e o n o n e o c c a s i o n h e a t t e n d e d o r w e n t to
t h is p r e m is e s . I t w a s Mr J o e M a r k s a n d h is s o n a n d in c l u d i n g G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s , m y s e l f a n d a f e w o th e r m e m b e r s w h o m I c a n n o t r e c a ll a t t h is
s t a g e . T h a t w a s o n e s u p p li e r. T h e o t h e r s u p p li e r w a s M r J a n Ve n te r o f
A t la n ti s M o t o r s .

I d i d n o t s e e h i m t h e r e p h y s ic a l ly b u t M r Ve n te r

in f o r m e d m e o n o n e o c c a s i o n t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t h e r e o n a w e e k e n d
10

w h ic h w a s a r r a n g e d b y C o lo n e l B a r n a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e t h a t i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u – o r a ffi d a v i t y o u

r e fe r t o C a p t a i n P e t e N e l a s c a m p c o m m a n d e r r a t h e r t h a n c a m p
m a n a g e r, is t h a t r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C a m p c o m m a n d e r, c a m p
m a n a g e r I a m s u r e it - I a m n o t s u r e i f it t h e s a m e t h i n g C h a i r p r o b a b ly
w o u ld b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o u l d i t b e t h a t i t i s n o t t h e s a m e p e r s o n ? Is i t n o t a
q u e s t io n o f t e r m i n o l o g y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

I w o u ld t h i n k s o C h a i r

b u t – b u t t h e q u e s ti o n is th e r e b u t th e p e r s o n i ts e lf w a s d e fi n it e ly
C a p t a i n P e te N e l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u j u s t – y o u a r e j u s t n o t s u r e w h e t h e r h i s

p o s i ti o n w a s r e f e r r e d t o a s C a m p C o m m a n d e r o r C a m p M a n a g e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .

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ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u

t h e n p l e a s e d e a l w i th t h e T h o m p s o n B a y p r o p e r t y i n B a l li t o ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir b e fo r e I g o th e r e I
ju s t w a n t t o c o n fir m t h a t a l l o f t h e s e v is i t s to th is I s l a n d R o c k f a c il it y
w o u ld h a v e b e e n p o s t e d a s o p e r a t io n a l e x p e n s e s a n d w o u l d h a v e b e e n
p a i d o u t o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t y o u s a y t h a t o u t o f t h o s e t h a t y o u a t t e n d e d

o n ly t w o w e r e u s e d f o r s o m e w o r k ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t h o w m a n y ti m e s d i d y o u g o t o th is f a c i li t y i f y o u
a r e a b l e to r e m e m b e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir o v e r a p e r i o d o f a
f e w y e a r s I – i t w o u l d h a v e p r o b a b ly b e e n a b o u t s e v e n o r e i g h t ti m e s .
CHAIRPERSON: About …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n t o ta l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t o t a l y e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I n t o t a l a n d o f t h a t to t a l
t w o w a s w i t h m y f a mi ly
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s .

Th e o t h e r t i m e s y o u w e r e w i t h o th e r m e m b e r s

fr o m o th e r p e r s o n n e l fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e b u t w i t h o u t y o u r f a m il y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y o u t o f t h o s e s e v e n o r e ig h t ti m e s t h a t o n
w h ic h y o u w e n t t o – y o u u s e d t h e f a c i li ty o n l y t w o – y o u a r e a w a r e o f
o n ly t w o o c c a s i o n s w h e n p e o p le in t h e g r o u p – s o m e p e o p le in t h e
g r o u p u s e d t h e v is i t f o r w o r k p u r p o s e s ?

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O ff ic i a l p u r p o s e s y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u s a y e a c h ti m e t h e s e v is i ts to t h i s f a c il it y
happened

on

records

they

were

r e f le c t e d

as

o ffi c i a l d u ti e s

for

o p e r a ti o n s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – I a m s o r r y. W h o w o u ld h a v e – w h o w o u ld h a v e
b e e n r e s p o n s ib l e f o r h a v i n g t h e s e v i s i ts r e c o r d e d a s o ffic i a l ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir w h ic h e v e r p e r s o n

w e n t fo r t h a t p a r ti c u la r – I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t [i n d is ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o e a c h p e r s o n h a d t o f i ll i n f o r m s o r w h a t e v e r to s a y
h e o r s h e w a s g o i n g o n a n o ff ic ia l d u ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir i n

t e r m s o f th e v e h ic le s u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

And all expenses that

w a s f o r t h a t p a r tic u l a r p e r i o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A n d w h e r e th e y – w h e r e a p e r s o n t o o k
h is o r h e r f a m il y w i t h t h e m w o u l d t h e y h a v e r e c o r d e d t h e p r e s e n c e o f
t h e ir fa m i ly m e m b e r s w i t h th e m o r fr ie n d s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e r e c o r d e d th a t ?

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

T h e n C o lo n e l N a i d o o t h e

B a ll it o B a y p r o p e r ty w h o o w n e d th a t p r o p e r ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th is w a s a p r i v a t e
p r o p e r ty.

I t w a s r e n te d b y C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e b u t m o r e e s p e c i a ll y f o r

t h e u s e o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d m o s t o f t h e m e m b e r s w it h in h is in n e r
c ir c le t h a t i n c l u d e d m y s e l f . I w e n t t h e r e o n t w o o c c a s i o n s o r r a t h e r o n
a f e w o c c a s i o n s . I s t a y e d t h e r e a t t h is p r o p e r ty. P a r d o n w h i c h – o n a
10

f e w o c c a s io n s I v is i te d t h is p r o p e r t y t o g e t h e r w i t h m y fa m i ly. I t w a s a n
u p m a r k e t p r o p e r t y C h a ir w i t h in t h e p r e c i n c t o f B a ll it o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w b i g w a s it ? A f o u r – fo u r b e d r o o m s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

It was four bedrooms

C h a ir. I t w a s v e r y u p m a r k e t o n t h e b e a c h fr o n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H o w m a n y ti m e s d id y o u h a v e o c c a s i o n t o u s e
it ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
e x a c tl y b u t I h a v e b e e n t h e r e a f e w ti m e s .
CHAIRPERSON: A few times.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y i t w a s p r iv a t e ly o w n e d s o w a s it le a s e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And was it leased as a safe house?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A s f a r a s I k n o w y e s .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : A p a r t fr o m y o u r s e lf d o y o u k n o w w h o e ls e u s e d it ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i t w a s F M 0 9 ,

FM46,
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It w o u ld b e G e n e r a l

Lazarus.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : O n a f e w o c c a s i o n s w h e n
I w e n t th e r e I – I t h in k o n t w o o c c a s i o n s C h a ir t h e r e w e r e v a r i o u s o th e r
10

m e m b e r s fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ e x t e n d e d f a m ily th a t w e r e t h e r e . T h is
w a s o v e r a C h r is t m a s p e r io d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : H is i m m e d i a te f a m i ly a n d
h is e x t e n d e d f a m il y. F M 11 a l s o I w o u l d i n c lu d e i n t h a t li s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. C o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u

d e a l w i t h t h e p r o p e r t y w e h a v e n o w c a l l e d X E s ta t e s i n G r e e n s t o n e
Johannesburg?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :
20

Ye s C h a ir.

C h a ir t h i s –

a s I te s t i fi e d t o p r e v i o u s l y i n 2 0 0 6 G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s b u s y w i t h
e x t e n s i o n s o r r a t h e r n o t e x t e n s i o n s r e n o v a t io n s t o h is h o u s e i n
E d e n v a l e . I t h i n k i t w a s a b o u t t w o o r t h r e e m o n t h s i n to th e r e n o v a ti o n s
C h a ir t h e r e w a s a h ij a c k i n g o u ts id e o f h is h o u s e . I t w a s a s ta t e v e h ic l e
t h a t h e w a s d r i v i n g a t t h a t s t a g e . I th i n k i t w a s – it w a s F M 0 7 s h o t o n e
o f t h e h i ja c k e r s a n d t h e v e h i c l e w a s a ls o d a m a g e d b e c a u s e t h e s u s p e c t

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
s h o t a t t h i s v e h i c l e a s w e l l – t h e s ta t e v e h ic le .

C h a ir l ik e I a ls o

t e s ti fi e d t o p r e v i o u s l y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w o u l d tr a v e l t o m e – w i th m e t o
h is o ff ic e . S o I w o u l d p i c k h i m u p in t h e m o r n i n g . Th e m o r n in g o f th e –
t h is h a p p e n e d in t h e w e e k e n d .
w e e k e n d o n a S a tu r d a y.

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tly w h i c h

W h e n I f e t c h e d h i m fr o m h is h o u s e o n t h a t

Monday on our way to work we were just discussing.

It was general

c o n v e r s a ti o n r e g a r d in g th e h ij a c k i n g o f t h e p r e v i o u s w e e k e n d o r t h e
w e e k e n d th a t p a s s e d .

A n d h e s a id t o m e w e c a n p ig g y b a c k o n t h is

t h i n g i f y o u k n o w w h a t I m e a n . A n d h e w o u l d ta lk to G e n e r a l L a la a b o u t
10

it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f I c a n c o n ti n u e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a s s u m e th a t h e d id g e t
t h e a p p r o v a l fr o m G e n e r a l L a l a a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n s tr u c t e d m e to
m a k e e n q u ir i e s o r r a t h e r C h a i r s o r r y i f I c a n j u s t g o b a c k ? A f te r h e t o l d
m e w e c a n p i g g y b a c k o n t h is t h in k i f y o u k n o w w h a t I m e a n a n d h e
a s k e d m e t o m a k e e n q u ir ie s r e g a r d i n g a s a f e p r e m is e s a n d t h a t h e
w o u ld s p e a k to G e n e r a l L a l a a b o u t i t .

20

I presume that he did get the

n e c e s s a r y a p p r o v a l b e c a u s e h e i n s tr u c t e d m e t o s e c u r e o u r s a f e h o u s e
for him.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d h i m to b e ta lk i n g a b o u t

w h e n h e s a i d w e c a n p i g g y b a c k o n t h is th i n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir li k e I m e n t io n e d h e
w a s r e n o v a t in g h is h o u s e a t t h a t s t a g e .

I t w a s q u i t e e x te n s iv e .

Page 107 of 170

Th e

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
h o u s e w a s v ir t u a ll y g u t t e d i n te r ms o f t h e r o o f b e in g t a k e n d o w n . H e
w a s l iv in g a t th e b a c k o f t h e h o u s e o r r a t h e r w i th i n th e h o u s e i n th e
b a c k – t w o r o o m s . S o it w a s q u i te m e s s y C h a ir. S o w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d
fr o m t h is is t h a t w h il e t h e r e n o v a t io n s u s i n g t h e h i ja c k i n g – p i g g y
b a c k i n g o n t h e h ij a c k in g th a t h e w il l s p e a k to G e n e r a l L a l a s o t h a t h e
c a n m o v e i n t o a s a f e p r e m is e s u s in g t h e h i ja c k i n g a s a th r e a t .

But

a c t u a ll y i t w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e r e n o v a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w w o u l d h e u s e t h e h ij a c k in g a s a n e x c u s e ? W o u l d
it b e th a t h e w a s s c a r e d o f s ta y i n g in h is h o u s e b e c a u s e o f t h e
10

h i ja c k i n g o r w h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t w o u l d p r o b a b ly b e

t h e r e a s o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O r t h a t is h o w y o u u n d e r s t o o d it .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I e v e n tu a lly f o u n d
o r m a n a g e d to fi n d a p r e m i s e s w h ic h I w i ll r e fe r t o a s X E s t a t e i n
G r e e n s to n e i n J o h a n n e s b u r g w h i c h is n o t f a r fr o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y y o u w il l r e f e r t o t h e m a s ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : X E s t a t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes okay in Greenstone?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U

NAIDOO:

Th is

was

s i tu a t e d

a p p r o x i m a te ly a b o u t f iv e o r s e v e n k i lo m e tr e s a w a y fr o m G e n e r a l

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
Lazarus’ house.

T h i s p a r ti c u l a r p r e m is e s t h a t I s p e a k o f .

General

L a z a r u s to g e t h e r w i t h h is f a m il y th e y li v e d in t h i s p r e m i s e s f o r I t h i n k i t
w a s j u s t a p e r io d u n d e r a y e a r C h a ir.

T h e r e n t fo r t h is p a r t ic u l a r

p r e m is e s w a s R 6 0 0 0 .0 0 p e r m o n t h . I w a s r e s p o n s i b l e t o t a k e c a r e o f
in s o f a r a s t h e p a y m e n ts , t h e r e n t, t h e a m e n i ti e s , th e D S T V e t c e t e r a . I
a ls o h a d t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n t s C h a i r to h a v e t h is p a r t ic u l a r p r e m is e s
f u r n is h e d . T h i s w a s p a i d fr o m f u n d s o u t o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A f t e r t h e – G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ a l te r a ti o n s w e r e
c o m p le t e d d id h e c o n ti n u e t o r e m a i n i n th i s h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. I f I a m g i v e n
t h e d o c u m e n ts I c a n c o n fir m b u t I t h i n k i t w a s – th is l e a s e w a s t a k e n
f o r a p e r io d o f o n e y e a r. T h e r e w a s s ti ll o u t s t a n d i n g t w o m o n t h s t h a t
w a s le f t o v e r o n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r l e a s e w h e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s m o v e d
b a c k i n t o h is o w n h o u s e .

T h is w a s d o n e w h e n t h e r e n o v a ti o n s w e r e

c o m p le t e d . H e m o v e d o u t o f t h is s a fe h o u s e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t o th e fu r n i tu r e t h a t h a d
been purchased for the house?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h e f u r n it u r e a 3

s e a te r lo u n g e s e t w a s g iv e n t o C o l o n e l M ir a n d a Ve n t e r.
d is h w a s h e r a n d a t e l e v is io n s t a n d .
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o h is o w n p r o p e r t y.

I r e c e iv e d a

Som e other items were taken to
Th e r e s t o f t h e it e m s I b e l i e v e

w e r e [i n d i s ti n c t ] o ff o r a u c t io n e d o ff .
CHAIRPERSON: This terminology that furniture was ”bordered” what is

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
that supposed to mean?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : S o r r y C h a ir I d i d n o t h e a r
that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : Yo u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 1 5 4
t h a t th e f u r n i tu r e fr o m t h e h o u s e w a s b o r d e r e d . Yo u p u t t h a t i n q u o t e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a i r is s i m p ly a t e r m

w h e n a n a s s e t h a s r e a c h e d it s s h e l f l i fe i f y o u w a n t to c a ll i t th e n i t is
a u c ti o n e d o ff o r b o r d e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

B u t y o u s a y t h is w a s d o n e to t h is f u r n i t u r e

d e s p i te t h e f a c t th a t i t w a s i n e x c e l le n t c o n d i ti o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d w h e n – w h a t d o y o u n o r m a ll y d o o r w h a t
d i d C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e n o r m a l ly d o w i th f u r n i t u r e t h a t h a d l e g i ti m a t e l y
r e a c h e d a p o i n t w h e r e i t s h o u ld b e “ b o r d e r e d ” ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir I s p e a k u n d e r

c o r r e c t io n I d o n o t k n o w t h e e x a c t p r o c e s s b u t it w o u l d p r o b a b ly g o o n
a u c ti o n t h r o u g h a t e n d e r p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

A n d s u b s e q u e n tl y b e

t a k e n o ff t h e s y s t e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d b e s o l d o ff a n d t a k e n
o ff t h e s y s t e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
p l e a s e t e l l th e C h a i r a b o u t th e p r o p e r ty o w n e d b y C o lo n e l F M 1 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir F M 1 0 is a C o l o n e l
w i t h i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a n d h e i s a ls o a b u s i n e s s m a n . H e o w n s
n u m e r o u s p r o p e r t i e s s o m e o f w h ic h w e r e l e a s e d b y C I a s s a fe h o u s e s .
I k n o w a t l e a s t o n e p r o p e r ty in B e d f o r d v i e w – B e d f o r d v i e w w h ic h w a s
r e n t e d fr o m C I . C h a ir t h is I d o n o t h a v e d ir e c t k n o w le d g e o f b u t t h is
in f o r m a ti o n w a s r e la y e d to m e b y F M 0 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

I h a v e n o t b e e n to t h i s

p r o p e r ty. I h a v e n o t s e e n it p h y s ic a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : B u t t h is i n fo r m a t i o n w a s
relayed to me by FM08.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s tr ic tl y s p e a k i n g i t is n o t c o r r e c t t o s a y y o u k n o w
– a t l e a s t o f o n e p r o p e r ty b e c a u s e a l l y o u k n o w is w h a t F M 0 8 t o ld y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e c o u l d o r c o u ld n o t – w h ic h m a y o r m a y n o t b e

tr u e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u

p l e a s e n o w d e a l w i t h th e S h e ffi e ld b e a c h p r o p e r ty a n d e x p l a i n w h o
owned that property?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a ir I a m a l s o g o in g to
n o t d e lv e o n t h is a s p e c t b e c a u s e m o s t o f it i s h e a r s a y.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o I a m g o i n g t o s k ip

t h a t a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d w e g o t o K a r in

Hanekom Attorneys if I may?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o u ld y o u t h e n d e a l w i th t h e p a y m e n ts t o

K a r in H a n e k o m A t t o r n e y s ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir K a r in H a n e k o m

A t t o r n e y s w e r e th e c o n v e y a n c i n g a tt o r n e y s t h e y w e r e b a s ic a l ly d e a li n g
w i t h t h e tr a n s f e r t h a t w a s p u r c h a s e b y G e n e r a l M d lu li .
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry before you – you proceed Colonel Naidoo.
M s W e n tz e l t h e p a r ts w h i c h h e is s k i p p i n g b e c a u s e h e s a y s h e d o e s n o t
h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f . T h o s e c a n b e i n v e s ti g a te d fu r t h e r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To e s t a b li s h i f h is u n d e r s t a n d in g is c o r r e c t a n d i f

n e e d b e h e c a n c o m e b a c k o r s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o h a s p e r s o n a l
k n o w l e d g e c a n c o m e in o r w h o m a y h a v e g r o u n d s to b e li e v e c e r t a in
20

things about them.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll m a k e s u r e t h a t t h a t i s d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d C o lo n e l N a id o o y o u c a n a s s is t i n t h a t p r o c e s s .

S o i n o t h e r w o r d s y o u m i g h t h a v e in f o r m a t io n a n d y o u a r e n o t s u r e

Page 112 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
b e c a u s e y o u d o n o t h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e b u t n e v e r th e l e s s w h a t
y o u h a v e b e e n t o l d b y o t h e r p e o p le m i g h t h e l p in i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h o s e
is s u e s w h ic h m i g h t le a d to e s t a b l is h i n g t h a t w h a t y o u k n e w o r w h a t y o u
h a d b e e n t o ld is tr u e . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d th a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o w h e r e y o u c a n a s s is t w i t h r e g a r d t o t h a t I a m
s u r e y o u w ill a s s is t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w il l d o s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. I t j u s t h e lp s t h a t b y t h e ti m e it i s a i r e d i n
10

p u b lic .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e n e c e s s a r y g r o u n d w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e t o m a k e

s u r e t h a t i f it is a ir e d i n p u b l ic t h e r e a r e r e a s o n a b l e g r o u n d s to b e li e v e
it is tr u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir w e b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d t h e r e i n r e s p e c t
o f t h is p r o p e r ty C o l o n e l N a i d o o d o y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e o f t h e
f u r n i tu r e p u r c h a s e d f o r t h is p r o p e r ty ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h p r o p e r ty a r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e S h e ffi e ld B e a c h p r o p e r ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

That is the one he said he does not have personal

k n o w l e d g e . T h a t h e s a i d y o u w a n t e d t o s k ip o r h a v e y o u c o m e a c r o s s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t m a k e s y o u t h i n k h e m i g h t w a n t t o r e v is i t t h a t?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t h i n k t h a t t h i s – t h e r e is a n a s p e c t th a t h e

Page 113 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
d o e s p e r h a p s h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e a n d i f h e c a n j u s t c l a r i fy th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y h e m a y – h e c a n c l a r i fy i t . D o y o u w a n t to
r e p e a t y o u r q u e s ti o n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C o lo n e l N a id o o w e r e y o u i n v o l v e d a t a ll
in t h e p u r c h a s e o f p r o p e r ty – o f fu r n it u r e f o r th is p r o p e r ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : N o t f o r t h e p u r c h a s e b u t
I w a s p r e s e n t w h e n th e p u r c h a s e s w e r e m a d e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And what do you mean by that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

C h a ir t h i s is a p r iv a t e

p r o p e r ty a n d I w il l n o t d e lv e i n to t h e d e t a il s b u t i t is a p r iv a te p r o p e r t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W h e n th is p r o p e r ty w a s

b e i n g c o n s tr u c te d o r r a t h e r i n i ts c o m p l e ti o n F M 0 9 – F M 0 9 - 0 s o r r y
C h a ir. F M 0 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General Lazarus and

m y s e l f m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts to p u r c h a s e f u r n i t u r e f o r t h is p a r t ic u l a r
p r i v a t e p r o p e r ty u s i n g f u n d s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t .

The

it e m s w e r e p u r c h a s e d f r o m N e w W o r l d . C h a ir th is is n o t n o w N e w W o r l d
20

M o t o r s if I c a n c l a r if y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I t is a n o th e r s e r v ic e

p r o v i d e r to C o m p a n y X b u t i t i s c a ll e d N e w W o r ld .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is ju s t …

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON:

So you were present when furniture was purchased

f o r t h is p r o p e r ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t t h a t i s a b o u t a ll t h a t y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l

knowledge of?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t y o u – y o u d o h a v e s u s p i c i o n s t h a t i t m ig h t
b e p r o p e r ty t h a t w a s u s e d a s a s a f e h o u s e il le g a l ly o r s o m e t h i n g t o th a t
e ffe c t?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th is w a s n o t – t h is
w a s d e v e l o p e d a s a p r iv a te p r o p e r ty. I t w a s n o t a s a f e h o u s e . It w a s
in t h e p r o c e s s o f b e i n g b u il t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
COLONEL

D H A N A J AYA

GANGULU

N A ID O O :

And

nearing

it s

c o m p le t io n i t w a s fu r n is h e d b y u s i n g f u n d s f r o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e
Account.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So I think that is as far

as I can take you there.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o w h a t y o u c a n s a y is t h a t t h e f u r n i t u r e t h a t

w a s u s e d – t h a t w a s p u r c h a s e d t o p u t in t o t h is p r o p e r ty a s i t w a s
n e a r in g c o m p l e ti o n w a s f u r n i t u r e p u r c h a s e d w i t h m o n e y fr o m t h e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. I th in k t h a t is i m p o r t a n t.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir I w ill n o w g o to

K a r in H a n e k o m A t t o r n e y s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Point 163.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A s I m e n t i o n e d t h is w a s

a tt o r n e y s th a t w e r e a p p o in t e d a s a c o n v e y a n c i n g a t t o r n e y d e a li n g w i t h
10

t h e tr a n s fe r o f a p r o p e r t y p u r c h a s e d b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d C h a i r I c a n if I c a n j u s t e x p la i n h o w I g o t in v o lv e d i n t h is .

I remember having a

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
H e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t G e n e r a l M d lu li g a v e h i m a c h e q u e . T h a t
w a s to b e d e p o s i t e d i n to t h i s a c c o u n t o f K a r in H a n e k o m A t t o r n e y s . I t
was

for

this

property

that

he

was

p u r c h a s in g

G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s tr a v e ll i n g s o m e w h e r e C h a ir.

at

the

time.

He was out of the

c o u n tr y.
I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s e x a c tl y s a id b u t h e w a s
n o t a v a il a b l e .
20

H e i n s t r u c t e d m e t o - t o d e p o s i t t h is c h e q u e o f

R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 in t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a g a i n R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t s e e m s to b e a c o m m o n
t h r e a d C h a ir, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u p e o p l e a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e l ik e R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t s e e m s to b e a c o m m o n

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
n u m b e r, y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

f u r th e r i n s tr u c t e d m e t o t a k e a n a d v a n c e fr o m t h e a d v a n c e o ff ic e o f
R30 000,00.

S o t h e t o ta l a m o u n t o f R 7 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 w o u l d b e d e p o s i t e d

in t o t h is a c c o u n t o f K a r i n H a n e k o m A t t o r n e y s . T h i s w a s a l l in s tr u c ti o n
t h a t I r e c e iv e d f r o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e t e ll y o u w h y y o u h a d t o d e p o s i t t h a t a m o u n t i n
the account of Karin Hanekom Attorneys?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
o r r e c a ll th e e x a c t - th e e x a c t c o n v e r s a ti o n b u t th e i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t h e
g a v e m e w a s t o d e p o s i t th is m o n e y i n t o - i n to t h is a c c o u n t. T h e c h e q u e
w a s fr o m G e n e r a l M d lu li . I t w a s h is n a m e p r e - p r i n t e d o n t h e b o t t o m o f
the cheque. It was a blank cheque.
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h i ms e l f fi ll e d in - I - I a s s u m e d t h i s c h e q u e
w o u ld h a v e b e e n g i v e n to h i m b y G e n e r a l M d lu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s fi ll e d i n

t h e a m o u n t b e c a u s e i t w a s a b l a n k c h e q u e C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

To g e t h e r

with

this

c h e q u e a n d t h e a d v a n c e t h a t I o b t a i n e d o f R 3 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 fr o m t h e c a s h
o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I p r o c e e d e d t o - I t h i n k i t

Page 117 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
is a n A b s a B a n k C h a ir a n d I m a d e t h e d e p o s i t . I th in k t h e d e p o s i t s l ip
is - is a n n e x e d t o m y s ta t e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: So the deposit that you made was - you deposited a
c h e q u e s i g n e d b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Where

th e

amount

had

been

f il le d

in

by

General Lazarus?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

And you deposited that cheque into the account of

K a r in H a n e k o m A t t o r n e y s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s - th a t c h e q u e w a s fo r R 3 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f I c a n j u s t m a k e a
c o r r e c t io n q u ic k ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

When I said the amount

o f 4 0 0 0 0 t h e a m o u n t w a s a l r e a d y w r i t t e n i n b y G e n e r a l M d l u li …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

But where you had to

write

that

p h y s ic a l ly

the

amount

in

words

General Lazarus.

Page 118 of 170

was

w r i tt e n

by

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON:

G e n e r a l M d l u li h a d w r i t t e n th e - t h e a m o u n t in - i n

fi g u r e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n h e h a d n o t w r it t e n t h e a m o u n t in w o r d s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

The words were written

in b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

O k a y.

S o d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h i s

m o n e y w a s i n r e la t io n to a p r o p e r ty t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s b u y i n g …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is w h a t I …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a ll y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is w h a t I c a n r e c a l l
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h y - w h y d i d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a v e t o b e

t h e o n e t o f il l i n t h e a m o u n t i n w o r d s ? D o y o u k n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f G e n e r a l M d l u l i h a d a lr e a d y w r i t te n t h e a m o u n t i n

fi g u r e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
a t t h a t s ta g e .
20

C h a ir i t w a s b l a n k C h a i r

T h e r e w a s n o th i n g w r it t e n i n - in t h e c h e q u e w h e n h e

was - when he handed it over to me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i h a n d e d i t o v e r to y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. G e n e r a l M d l u l i
h a n d e d th e c h e q u e o v e r t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
s u b s e q u e n t ly g a v e m e t h e i n s tr u c t i o n to - to m a k e t h e d e p o s i t.
actual

w r i ti n g

of

the

-

the

amount

Page 119 of 170

in

words

was

done

Th e
by

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
General Lazarus.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

I thought that you said that General Mdluli had

w r i t t e n t h e a m o u n t i n w o r d s - i n fi g u r e s …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n f ig u r e s C h a ir. T h a t i s
what …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h a d n o t w r i t te n th e a m o u n t in w o r d s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: General Lazarus was the one who wrote it in words?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h ic h o n e i s - w h ic h h i s w h ic h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O k a y. T h e a m o u n t w a s w a s a lr e a d y w r i t t e n i n C h a ir b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i.

T h e fi g u r e s I a m

t a lk in g a b o u t . Th e a m o u n t o f R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 i n w o r d s w a s w r i tt e n o u t b y
General Lazarus in my presence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w e r e y o u p r e s e n t w h e n G e n e r a l M d lu li w r o t e t h e
amount in words …?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In - in fi g u r e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja and were you present when General Lazarus wrote
t h e a m o u n t in w o r d s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: But - so then when you spoke about the cheque being
blank what were you talking about?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W h e n I s a i d i t w a s b la n k

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C h a ir I m e a n t t h a t - I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o th e w o r d s . T h e w o r d s w e r e n o t
w r i t t e n in b u t t h e a m o u n t w a s w r i t t e n i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e r e w a s n o - t h e - t h e
s p a c e w h e r e y o u h a v e t o w r i t e o u t t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s b la n k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Is - i s y o u r r e c o l le c t io n o n t h is m a t t e r q u i t e

c le a r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ve r y c l e a r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

I a m a s k in g t h a t b e c a u s e I s e e m t o th in k th a t

y o u h a v e g o n e f r o m o n e v e r s io n o f s a y i n g t h e c h e q u e w a s b l a n k a n d
t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w r o t e b o t h th e - b o t h t h e a m o u n t i n fi g u r e s a n d
t h e a m o u n t i n w o r d s t o a v e r s io n th a t s a y s G e n e r a l M d l u li w r o te t h e
a m o u n t i n f ig u r e - in fi g u r e s b u t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w r o te th e a m o u n t in
words.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f I …
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e m t o t h i n k y o u h a v e s a i d th a t a f e w t i m e s . A m

wrong?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I f I m a y C h a ir le t m e

c la r i fy.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d I m is u n d e r s ta n d s o m e th in g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m n o t s u r e . M a y b e I I w a s n o t v e r y c l e a r C h a ir. I f I m a y. T h e a m o u n t i n - th e a c t u a l f i g u r e
was

w r i tt e n

by

General Lazarus.

General Mdluli

and

the

cheque

was

g iv e n

to

W h e n I m e t h i m a t h is o ffic e t h e s p a c e w h e r e y o u

h a d t o w r i t e o u t th e a m o u n t i n w o r d s w a s b l a n k . T h a t w a s w r it t e n o u t

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
by General Lazarus in my presence.
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w - h o w d o y o u k n o w th a t t h e a m o u n t i n f ig u r e s

was written by General Mdluli when you were not there when he w h o e v e r w r o t e th e a m o u n t w r o t e i t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

O k a y C h a ir.

Th a t - t h a t

w o u ld n o t b e v e r y c l e a r b e c a u s e th a t w a s h is c h e q u e w i t h h is
p r e - p r i n te d n a m e a t th e b o t t o m .

So I am assuming that figure was

w r i t t e n in b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , b u t y o u s e e n o w y o u a r e s a y in g y o u a r e

assuming.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

Th a t - t h a t

p a r t m a y n o t b e v e r y c l e a r. T h a t is - th a t i s a n a s s u m p t i o n y e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

But what - what I can

c o n fir m is t h a t t h a t w a s a c h e q u e b y G e n e r a l M d lu li b e c a u s e h is n a m e
w a s p r e - p r in t e d o n th e b o t t o m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u r e m e m b e r a w h i l e a g o I s a i d p le a s e i f

y o u a r e n o t s u r e i f y o u a s s u m e d o n o t t e l l m e . J u s t te ll m e w h a t y o u
k n o w a n d y o u w il l r e m e m b e r I - I a s k e d y o u i s y o u r m e m o r y q u it e c l e a r
20

on this matter and you said yes.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

my

a p o lo g i e s

C h a ir. W h a t I a m - w h a t I a m s u r e a b o u t i s th a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w r o t e
in t h e fi g u r e o r t h e w o r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e fi g u r e . I w i ll - I w il l

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
s t a y a w a y fr o m t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u a r e n o t s u r e …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m n o t s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t o w h o w r o t e t h e a m o u n t in fi g u r e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w il l s t a y a w a y fr o m t h a t
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : M y a p o l o g i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u C h a i r.

I n w h o s e n a m e w a s th e

a d v a n c e f o r t h e a d d i ti o n a l a m o u n t o f 3 0 0 0 0 t a k e n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r th is a d v a n c e w a s

t a k e n o n m y n a m e C h a ir. Th is w a s a n i n s t r u c t io n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And who approved that advance?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t w a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And why was the advance taken in your

name?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

t h is

was

an

in s t r u c t i o n li k e I s a i d fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . T h is w a s t h e c a s h a m o u n t
20

o f 3 0 0 0 0 . W h e n h e fu r t h e r i n s tr u c t e d m e t o ta k e t h e c h e q u e t o g e t h e r
with the cash of R30 000,00 that he had just approved and deposit into
t h is a c c o u n t o f K a r i n H a n e k o m A t t o r n e y s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e 11 6 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Is t h a t t h e d e p o s i t s li p t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r in g

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
to?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is i t? 1 - 1 - 6 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 11 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u fi ll in t h a t d e p o s i t s l i p ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h a t is m y w r i ti n g .

T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

A n d a f te r th is w e r e a r r a n g e m e n t s m a d e t o

r e p a y t h is a d v a n c e o f 3 0 0 0 0 t h a t h a d b e e n ta k e n in y o u r n a m e to
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
t e s ti fi e d

to

p r e v i o u s ly.

A

s a fe

house

Indeed.
was

being

C h a ir

as

rented

I
or

G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s s a fe h o u s e w a s b e i n g r e n t e d b y C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e .
W h e n I m e t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a w e e k o r t w o a f t e r ta k i n g t h i s a d v a n c e I
s u g g e s t e d to h i m t h a t I p a y o ff th is o u t s ta n d i n g a d v a n c e o f R 3 0 0 0 0 , 0 0
o n m y n a m e i f I c o u ld w i t h h is p e r m is s io n u s e t h e m o n e y fr o m - fr o m
t h e p r e m i s e s w h ic h w a s R 7 0 0 0 , 0 0 t o p a y o ff th is o u ts t a n d in g a d v a n c e
on my name.
20
relayed

H e a g r e e d C h a ir.

I a ls o r e l a y e d t h i s m e s s a g e o r r a t h e r

th is

that

c o n v e r s a t io n

I

had

with

G e n e r a l M d l u li

to

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d th e y w e r e b o th fi n e w it h th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I am going to come back to - and ask you to repeat

t h is d is c u s s i o n t h a t y o u h a d w i t h G e n e r a l M d lu li b u t I j u s t w a n t t o g o
b a c k to t h e d e p o s i t s l i p a t p a g e 1 - 1 - 6 .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w t h e p a r a g r a p h w h ic h d e a ls w i t h t h i s is

paragraph 1-6-3.

Th e d e p o s i t i n t o t h e a c c o u n t o f K a r i n H a n e k o m

A t t o r n e y s a n d t h a t p a r a g r a p h h a s g o t tw o - a t le a s t t w o a m o u n ts . T h e
amount of R40 000,00 and the amount of R30 000,00.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w I u n d e r s t o o d y o u e a r l ie r o n a n d y o u m u s t ju s t

t e ll m e i f I m i s u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y th a t t h e a m o u n t t h a t y o u d e p o s i t
in t o t h e a c c o u n t o f t h e a t t o r n e y s - K a r i n H a n e k o m A t t o r n e y s - w a s
10

R40 000,00.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w th is c h e q u e h e r e t h e r e i s a r e f e r e n c e to

R 3 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 tw o t i m e s a n d t h e n t h e r e is R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 . W h a t c a n y o u s a y
t o m e t o tr y a n d c la r i fy ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h i s is s i m p ly - t h e
R 3 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 w a s a c a s h a d v a n c e th a t I h a v e t a k e n f r o m t h e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e A c c o u n t . Th e o th e r R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 w a s t h e c h e q u e .

I think the

c h e q u e - t h e c h e q u e n u m b e r i s a ls o o n - o n t h e d e p o s it s li p . W h e r e w h e r e t h e o th e r R 3 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 is r e fl e c t e d C h a ir is m e r e ly a s u b t o t a l
20

b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o o t h e r a m o u n ts t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e - t h e a m o u n t t h a t y o u a c t u a ll y d e p o s i te d i n t o
t h e a c c o u n t o f K a r i n A t to r n e y s w a s R 7 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d o y o u r e c a ll th a t w h e n I a s k e d y o u s a i d i t w a s

R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 o r d i d I m i s u n d e r s ta n d y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair if - if I did it - it

w a s a m is t a k e o n m y p a r t b u t t h e a c t u a l a m o u n t w a s R 7 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

M a y b e I w a s r e f e r r in g t o

the cheque …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d n o t t h e c a s h .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t i n t o ta l i t w a s 7 0 0 0 0
that was deposited.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t . S o t h e R 7 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 w a s m a d e u p o f t w o
a m o u n ts . Th e r e w a s R 3 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 w h ic h w a s a n a d v a n c e f o r - t h a t y o u
took in your name?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s c a s h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e r e w a s R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 .

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I n t h e fo r m o f a c h e q u e ,

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e f o r m o f a c h e q u e …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

And

that

cheque

being

G e n e r a l M d l u l i?

Page 126 of 170

the

cheque

fr o m

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o - s o y o u d e p o s i te d i n th e e n d a n a m o u n t o f
R70 000,00?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . Yo u c a n p r o c e e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir C o l o n e l N a i d o o w a s d e a l in g w i t h h o w

t h e a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t h e s o u g h t t o m a k e t o p a y b a c k th e R 3 0 0 0 0 , 0 0
t h a t a d v a n c e h a d b e e n t a k e n i n h is n a m e a t p a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I w o u l d l ik e h i m t o r e p e a t th a t .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o y o u s a i d t h a t a b o u t t w o w e e k s a f te r

y o u h a d t a k e n o u t t h is a d v a n c e p a y m e n t y o u h a d a d i s c u s s i o n w it h
G e n e r a l M d l u l i a b o u t it . P le a s e j u s t r e p e a t th a t d is c u s s i o n .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

It - it was

p r o b a b ly a f e w w e e k s a f t e r t h is d e p o s it w a s m a d e a n d a f te r t h e
a d v a n c e t h a t I h a d t a k e n o n m y n a m e w h ic h w a s o u ts t a n d i n g .

I - I

s u g g e s t e d t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i t h a t I c o u l d u s e th e m o n e y th a t w a s - t h a t
h e w a s c o l l e c ti n g a s r e n t f r o m t h e p r o p e r ty th a t C I w a s r e n t in g fr o m h i m
t o p a y o ff t h i s a d v a n c e .
20

C h a ir I d i d t h is o v e r - o v e r a p e r i o d o f a f e w m o n t h s w h e r e I
w o u ld t a k e t h e R 7 0 0 0 , 0 0 a n d i n s t e a d o f g i v in g i t o r - o r h a n d i n g it o v e r
t o G e n e r a l M d lu li I w o u ld p a y o ff t h e a d v a n c e . A l t h o u g h i t w o u l d b e a
p a r t p a y m e n t o f 7 0 0 0 . T h is I d id o v e r f o u r m o n t h s a n d I t h in k th e l a s t
p a y m e n t w a s R 2 0 0 0 , 0 0 C h a ir.

T h a t is h o w t h i s - t h a t i s h o w t h i s

a d v a n c e w a s s e t t le d o r r e c o n c i le d .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m o n e y w a s - m o n e y w a s t a k e n fr o m w h e r e a n d p u t
where?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
r e fr e s h .

C h a i r i f - i f I c a n ju s t

I te s t i fi e d e a r l ie r th a t G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s fl a t in G o r d o n ’s B a y

was being rented by CI …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d o n a m o n t h ly b a s i s I
w o u ld c o ll e c t th e c a s h fr o m M r J o h n A p p a l s a m y f r o m D a e z Tr a d i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And hand over the cash

t o G e n e r a l M d l u li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th is w a s o n a m o n t h l y

b a s is .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W h e n I t o o k t h is a d v a n c e
C h a ir t o p a y t h e a t to r n e y s t h is w a s o u t s ta n d i n g . I c o u ld n o t r e c o n c i l e
t h is a d v a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I

th e n

s u g g e s te d

to

G e n e r a l M d l u l i i f I c o u ld w i t h h is p e r m is s i o n t h e m o n e y t h a t I c o l le c te d
fr o m M r - M r J o h n A p p a ls a my f o r h is p r o p e r ty w it h r e g a r d s t o t h e r e n t
t h e R 7 0 0 0 , 0 0 i f I c o u ld p a y i t o ff e a c h m o n t h a g a i n s t t h is o u t s ta n d i n g
R30 000,00.

H e a g r e e d C h a ir.

T h is w a s d o n e o v e r a f e w - a f e w

m o n th s u n ti l t h is a d v a n c e w a s p a i d o ff .

Page 128 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. S o - s o - a n d th e e ff e c t o f t h a t w a s t h a t in
t h e e n d t h e m o n e y th a t h a d b e e n p a i d t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 t h a t y o u h a d
t a k e n a s a n a d v a n c e p a y m e n t f o r - f o r h is b e n e fi t w a s r e p a i d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O v e r a p e r io d o f f iv e m o n t h s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

A lr ig h t a n d th is w a s - t h e d e p o s i t w a s

made on 25 May 2010?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Colonel Naidoo you then

d e a l w i t h u p g r a d e s to t h e p r o p e r ti e s o f v a r i o u s C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e
members.

C o u ld y o u f ir s t p l e a s e d e a l w i t h a p r o p e r ty o w n e d b y

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ s is te r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir, K -

regarding

U p g r a d i n g o f C I M e m b e r s P r o p e r ti e s . I a m g o i n g t o s k i p t h i s s e c t io n a s
w e ll b e c a u s e a ll o f t h is w a s c o n v e r s a ti o n s o r g e n e r a l c o n v e r s a ti o n s
t h a t I h a d w i t h v a r i o u s m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d I p i c k e d u p
t h e s e t h i n g s . S o I a m g o i n g t o s k ip t h is C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s - a s I s a id i n r e g a r d t o - i n t h e c o n te x t o f t h e o t h e r
p a r t w h ic h y o u s k ip p e d t h e y c a n s t il l b e i n v e s t ig a t e d f u r th e r …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r i t i s in d e e d w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d

Page 129 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
if it is t h e n e it h e r y o u o r s o m e b o d y e l s e c a n c o m e a n d g i v e e v id e n c e
a b o u t t h o s e a s p e c ts .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C h a ir i f I m a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e r e is j u s t o n e a s p e c t

where I have personal knowledge …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d I r e f e r t o - s ti ll u n d e r
10

the heading of K:

U p g r a d i n g o f C I M e m b e r s Pr o p e r t i e s a n d I r e f e r to

point 167.7.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir th is w a s m y o w n

p r o p e r ty.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

This was a period when

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s b u s y r e n o v a ti n g h i s h o m e C h a ir.

There was a

p e r i o d I t h i n k o f tw o o r t h r e e w e e k s w h e r e t h e r e w a s d o w n ti m e f o r t h e
r e n o v a t io n s a t h is p r o p e r t y. H e s a i d t o m e th a t - I th i n k h e g a v e m e a
20

c h e q u e . N o h e d i d g iv e m e a c h e q u e . I r e m e m b e r c l e a r ly C h a ir.
I t w a s a c h e q u e fo r R 2 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 .

H e s a i d th a t I s h o u l d

u p g r a d e t h e p r o p e r ty to m y o w n h o u s e . W e l l n o t th e w h o le p r o p e r t y. I t
w a s a b o u n d a r y w a ll a n d to r e p l a c e th e - t h e d r iv e w a y g a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 130 of 170

A n d t h is w a s a n a m o u n t

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
o f R 2 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h is m o n e y t h a t h e w a s j u s t li k e g iv i n g to y o u t o
s p e n d fo r t h is p u r p o s e w i th n o t h in g fo r h i m - i n i t f o r h i m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir it w a s a c h e q u e

t h a t h e h a d g iv e n . It w a s c a s h b u t h e d i d m e n ti o n to m e t h a t h e w o u l d
s o r t i t o u t w i th D e e n a . D in a r e f e r r in g t o M a jo r - G e n e r a l D e e n a M o o d le y
w h o w a s a C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e H e a d K w a Zu l u - N a t a l a t t h a t s ta g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Why would he sort it out with him?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a g a i n t h i s w o u l d b e
10

h e a r s a y i f I g o i n to - if I d e lv e i n to t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o i n t o th a t , y e s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B u t I c a n p r o v id e m o r e

d e t a i ls f u r th e r t o t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h , a f t e r s o m e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A t a l a t e r s t a g e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s fi n e . I m e a n w e - in a C o m m is s i o n
o n e - w e a ll o w h e a r s a y b u t th e r e h a s g o t to b e s o m e l i mi t a n d w h e r e
t h i n g s c a n b e i n v e s t ig a t e d fi r s t t h e y s h o u l d b e i n v e s ti g a te d f ir s t a s f a r
a s p o s s i b le . O k a y.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o h e g a v e y o u t h is a m o u n t a n d s a i d u s e i t t o
u p g r a d e y o u r o w n p r o p e r t y b y b u i ld i n g a b o u n d a r y w a ll . I s t h a t r i g h t and driveway?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d
r e p l a c in g th e d r i v e w a y g a t e .

Page 131 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a d n o t a s k e d f o r th is . H e j u s t c a m e u p w i t h
t h e id e a ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d - b u t w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h o s e
m o n e y y o u w e r e g o i n g t o u s e f o r - f o r t h is p u r p o s e - p u r p o s e ?

Was

y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t h e w a s g iv i n g y o u o r m a y b e l e t m e a s k fir s t
y o u s a i d i t w a s a c h e q u e ? Wa s i t h is c h e q u e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It w a s h is o w n c h e q u e

C h a ir, y e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D id y o u h a v e a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t h e

m e a n t w h e n h e s a id h e w o u l d s o r t i t o u t w i t h D e e n a ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t h e m e a n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g

of that …
CHAIRPERSON: Or are you not sure?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W o u ld b e i n d e e d C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e m o n e y b u t li k e I s a i d I c a n n o t d e lv e i n to t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F u r th e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t is a s fa r a s I c a n ta k e
it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u - y o u a r e n o t a b le to t h i n k o f a n y r e a s o n w h y
w i t h o u t y o u h a v i n g a s k e d h i m h e w o u l d g iv e y o u R 2 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 fr o m h is

Page 132 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
o w n p o c k e t t o i m p r o v e y o u r p r o p e r ty ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

No

C h a ir.

It

was

must

also

R 2 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R 2 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

I

m e n ti o n i f I m a y t h a t a m o u n t w a s n e v e r p a i d b a c k t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
10

by myself.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d h e n e v e r a s k e d f o r i t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u a n d - a n d w e d o n o t h a v e a
copy of that cheque here. Do we?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o lo n e l N a i d o o …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a m n o t a w a r e o f

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : In - in t h e b u n d l e ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Of that annexure.

n o t s u r e i f i t is h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is n o t i n th e b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t h e r e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No.

Page 133 of 170

I am

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t.

D o y o u h a v e a r e c o l l e c ti o n o f

r o u n d a b o u t w h e n t h is w a s w h e n h e g a v e y o u t h i s c h e q u e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir,

he

-

he

-

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s r e n o v a t in g h is o w n p r o p e r ty a r o u n d 2 0 0 6 / 2 0 0 7 .
S o i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n p r o b a b l y i n t h e s a m e - i n t h e s a m e ti m e fr a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . Ye s c o n t i n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

w i t h t h e a c q u is i t io n o f S t a t e v e h ic le s .

C o l o n e l N a id o o y o u t h e n d e a l
As far as you are aware were

t h e G e n e r a ls i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e e n ti t le d t o a c q u ir e S t a te v e h i c l e s ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I a m g o i n g to s k i p
t h a t a s w e l l . I t is a ls o h e a r s a y. Th is w a s t h r o u g h g e n e r a l c o n v e r s a ti o n
that I had.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h o w a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r a c q u ir i n g … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t - le t m e f ir s t u n d e r s t a n d in g fr o m - fr o m w h e r e h e
s k i p s to w h e r e . S o y o u w o u l d b e s k i p p i n g fr o m p a g e - p a r a g r a p h 1 - 6 - 8
…

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Up to where?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : U p t o 1 7 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: Up to 170?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Th a n k y o u a n d fr o m 1 7 1 y o u a r e r e a d y to d e a l

Page 134 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
w i t h t h a t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Fr o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r fr o m 1 - 7 - 2 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. I t w o u l d g o t o
- fr o m 1 6 8 t o 1 7 2 . 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

( I n d i s t i n c t) .

Th o s e a r e t h e p a r a g r a p h s y o u a r e

skipping?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . S o it m e a n s w e g o to …
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 40.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e g o to t h e n e x t h e a d i n g . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P a g e 4 0 C h a ir. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S R Ve h ic l e s . O k a y. Ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank

you.

C o l o n e l N a id o o

who

was

r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e a c q u i s i ti o n o f S t a t e v e h ic l e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th is i s i n r e f e r e n c e
t o t h e M d l u l i f a m i ly o n e p o in t - 1 7 3 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

s e v e n a g e n ts .

I was in charge of these

S o I w o u l d u l t i m a te ly t a k e c a r e o f t h e ir p e tr o l c l a i ms

r e g a r d in g th e s e v e h ic l e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
t o t a l. I f I ju s t m a y n a m e t h e n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 135 of 170

I t w a s s e v e n v e h ic l e s i n

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
diesel - a sedan.

One was a BM W 330

Th e s e c o n d o n e w a s - a n d i f I c a n j u s t g iv e t h e

a m o u n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

The

amount

of

R 4 8 7 3 1 3 ,0 0 th is w a s u t il is e d b y F M 2 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H u h - u h . Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e s e c o n d v e h ic le C h a i r
a
10

N is s a n

M ic r a .

The

amount

fo r

t h is

p a r ti c u la r

v e h ic l e

was

R 1 2 7 0 0 0 ,0 0 . Th is w a s u ti li s e d b y F M 3 0 . T h e t h ir d v e h ic le C h a ir a V W
G o l d 1 .6 o r r a t h e r V W G o lf 6 1 . 4 . U ti li s e d b y F M 2 5 . T h e a m o u n t C h a ir
R 2 2 0 3 6 5 ,0 0 .
C h a ir t h e fo u r t h v e h i c l e C h a ir a H o n d a J a z z 1 .5 . U til is e d b y
FM29.

Th e a m o u n t C h a ir R 1 7 2 0 0 0 , 0 0 .

T h e f if t h v e h ic le C h a ir.

An

A u d i A 4 2 li tr e u t il is e d b y F M 2 8 . T h e a m o u n t R 3 5 2 3 0 9 , 1 0 . T h e s ix t h
v e h ic l e C h a ir.

A VW Golf 6 1.4.

U ti lis e d b y F M 2 7 .

The amount of

R 2 2 1 3 7 6 ,0 0 a n d th e l a s t v e h i c l e b e i n g th e s e v e n t h o n e C h a ir.
A V W G o l f 6 G Ti.
amount.
20

U t i lis e d b y F M 2 6 a n d I d o n o t s e e a n

T h e a m o u n t is u n k n o w n t o m e b u t I c a n c o n f ir m i f th e

d o c u m e n ts a r e s h o w n to m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h is s e c t io n o f y o u r s t a te m e n t
is p r e f a c e d b y a s t a t e m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 3 t h a t y o u w e r e s h o w n
d o c u m e n t a ti o n b y C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e r e g a r d i n g S t a te v e h ic l e s t h a t w e r e
d e li v e r e d to G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s fa m i ly m e m b e r s .

Page 136 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t y o u s a y y o u c o m m e n t o n t h e m a s f o ll o w s .
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Now

on

whose

i n s tr u c ti o n s

were

these

v e h ic l e s d e liv e r e d t o t h e M d lu li f a m ily m e m b e r s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

th e s e

are

the

in s t r u c t i o n s th a t I r e c e iv e d fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . H e a l s o i n f o r m e d m e
t h a t I w o u ld b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e s e v e h i c le s i n s o f a r a s t h e c l a i m s i n
10

r e s p e c t o f e a c h o n e o f th e s e v e h i c l e s .

C h a ir o n a m o n t h ly b a s is I

w o u ld r e c e iv e p e tr o l s li p s f r o m t h e s e m e m b e r s a n d I w o u l d c o m p le t e
t h e n e c e s s a r y c o m p il a ti o n o f th e c la i m s .
C h a ir b e i n g t h e m a s t h e y w e r e a g e n t s t h e ir d a il y tr i p s w e r e
n o t lo g g e d . R a th e r i t w a s j u s t a n o p e n in g m i le a g e f o r t h e m o n t h a n d a
c lo s i n g m il e a g e a t th e e n d o f t h e m o n t h . S o I h a d n o i d e a w h e r e th e
v e h ic l e s w e r e b e i n g u ti lis e d a n d f o r w h a t p u r p o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h o d e li v e r e d t h e s e v e h ic le s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

C h a ir

these

v e h ic l e s

w e r e d e l iv e r e d t o , I a m n o t s u r e i f I c a n , I w o n ’t m e n t io n h e a r e a w h e r e
t h e y w e r e d e l iv e r e d t o , b u t t h e y w e r e d e l iv e r e d t o . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : To th e p e r s o n s t h a t a r e m e n ti o n e d i n – t o t h e p e r s o n s
m e n ti o n e d w h o a r e p a r t o f th e l is t o f s e v e n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A s i n 1 7 3 C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m th e M d lu li f a m ily t h a t y o u w e r e h a n d l i n g ?

Page 137 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, s o y o u d e l iv e r e d t h e v e h ic le s t o e a c h o n e
o f t h e m , th e i r o n e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Whatever the place was where you were asked to

d e li v e r i t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Thank you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d y o u m a k e t h e m s ig n a n y d o c u m e n t s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e y h a d t o s ig n o n

r e c e i p t o f th e v e h ic le C h a ir t h a t t h e y d i d r e c e iv e th a t p a r ti c u l a r v e h ic l e .
I th in k t h e r e is a s i g n a t u r e th e r e o f in t h e a g e n t fi le s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d y o u t o l d t h e m w h a t w a s e x p e c t e d o f t h e m i n
t e r m s o f th e i r u s e o f t h e v e h ic l e s u n d e r C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

C o l o n e l N a id o o i f y o u c o u l d

p l e a s e t h e n d e a l w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s v e h ic l e s , t h e v e h i c l e s h e u s e d
20

h i m s e l f , n o t d e liv e r e d t o fa m i ly m e m b e r s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, y e s C h a ir G e n e r a l
M d lu li m a d e u s e o f s e v e n v e h i c l e s , C h a ir t h is w a s n o t a t a n y o n e
p a r t ic u l a r g iv e n ti m e , it w a s o v e r a p e r i o d o f ti m e , fr o m t h e t i m e h e w a s
a p p o i n t e d , th a t w a s i n J u ly 2 0 0 9 u n t il I w e n t i n t o w it n e s s p r o te c ti o n ,
t h a t w a s i n O c to b e r 2 0 11 , s o t h is w a s a p e r i o d o f o v e r t h e t i m e p e r i o d

Page 138 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
t h a t I h a v e j u s t m e n ti o n e d , t h e o n e v e h i c l e C h a ir t h is w a s a n A u d i Q 7 ,
t h is v e h i c l e w a s u ti li s e d b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i C h a ir, a s h i s o ff ic i a l v e h ic le ,
t h is w a s f r o m t h e O p e n A c c o u n t , t h is w a s n o t p r o c u r e d fr o m t h e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

G e n e r a l M d lu li a t t h a t

s t a g e w a s a D i v i s i o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e s o i n t e r m s
o f h is r a n k I t h in k h e w a s – h e h a d t h e a u t h o r i ty t o u s e t h i s v e h ic le w i th
a n o ffi c i a l d r i v e r. C h a i r h e a ls o h a d a b o d y g u a r d b u t I a m n o t s u r e if
10

t h a t i s w i th in t h e p r e s c r i p ts b u t h e d i d h a v e a b o d y g u a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And then I referred to a

M e r c e d e s B e n z i n 1 7 7 .2 , C h a ir t h i s w a s a M e r c e d e s B e n z E 3 5 0 C D I
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y l e t u s g o b a c k t o t h e fir s t o n e , t h e A u d i 2 7
a r e y o u a b l e t o i n d ic a t e d u r in g w h ic h p e r io d h e u s e d t h a t v e h ic l e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h i s i s a v e h ic l e h e
w o u ld h a v e r e c e iv e d w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n t e d , t h a t w a s i n J u ly 2 0 0 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

U n t il t h e p e r i o d o f 2 0 11 ,

March thereabout where he was arrested.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

This

w a s h is

o ff ic i a l

v e h ic l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Did he – you did say that he didn’t use all of these

Page 139 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
s e v e n v e h ic le s a t th e s a m e ti m e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ar e y o u a b l e to s a y w h e t h e r a t a n y o n e t i m e h e w o u ld
h a v e h a d a m i n i m u m o f X n u m b e r o f v e h i c le s th a t h e u s e d , o r is t h a t
s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e n o t a b l e to s a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e

e x a c tl y o f t h e t i m e fr a m e s b u t I w o u ld s a y a t l e a s t t h r e e o f th o s e
v e h ic l e s w e r e u s e d f o r h is u s e a t a n y g iv e n t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
10

C o n t in u e y o u w e r e o n t o 1 7 7 . 2 .

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir th is v e h i c l e w a s

p u r c h a s e d th r o u g h f u n d s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s t h e M e r c e d e s B e n z E 3 5 0 C T I ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h i s i s – s o r r y C h a i r c a n
I c o n t in u e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e , ja .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a s o p p o s e d t o t h e

fir s t v e h ic l e w h e n I m e n ti o n e d t h e A u d i Q 7 t h is w a s p r o c u r e d v i a th e
20

o p e n a c c o u n t , t h e M e r c e d e s a n d t h e r e s t t h a t I m e n ti o n e d is a l l
p r o c u r e d u s i n g fu n d s fr o m th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e Ac c o u n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e fi r s t o n e a M e r c e d e s
E 3 5 0 C D I th is v e h ic l e w a s p u r c h a s e d fr o m M e r c e d e s B e n z L i f e s ty l e
C e n tr e M e n ly n , th e a m o u n t b e in g R 6 3 6 9 5 0 .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

however

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s p u r c h a s e d b y C o m p a n y X ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : U s i n g t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t

C h a ir, t h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i f I ju s t m a y g i v e

y o u s o m e i n s ig h t r e g a r d i n g t h is p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

G e n e r a l M d l u l i i n i t ia ll y

h e w a s h a p p y w i t h t h e v e h ic l e C h a ir b u t a f e w m o n th s l a t e r h e
in s t r u c t e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o tr a d e th is t y p e o r t h i s p a r ti c u la r v e h ic l e
f o r a n o th e r o n e .

C h a ir I w a s t h e r e w h e n G e n e r a l M d l u li c a m e t o

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ffi c e , h e g a v e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a l is t o f e x tr a s th a t
t h is p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e , a n d I a m r e f e r r i n g t o t h e M e r c e d e s B e n z th a t d id
not have.
20

Benz.

H e w a n t e d t h o s e e x tr a s t o b e i n s t a l le d o n t h e M e r c e d e s

C h a ir t h o s e e x tr a s o n ly c o m e s fr o m th e f a c t o r y, s u b s e q u e n t ly

a n o t h e r M e r c e d e s B e n z , C h a ir i f y o u l o o k a t 1 7 7 .3 M e r c e d e s B e n z E C l a s s 3 5 0 C D I , C h a i r i t i s e x a c t ly t h e s a m e v e h ic le , I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t
n o w t h is is t h e s e c o n d M e r c e d e s B e n z t h a t w a s p u r c h a s e d fo r G e n e r a l
M d lu li , i t is e x a c t ly t h e s a m e v e h ic le C h a ir, b u t i f y o u l o o k a t t h e
d i ff e r e n c e in t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a id .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r ic e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir th e f ir s t o n e

w a s R 6 3 6 9 5 0 , I r e f e r t o t h e s e c o n d o n e , t h is w a s R 8 2 6 7 8 0 ,0 1 . C h a ir
t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e s e t w o fi g u r e s t h a t I h a v e j u s t g i v e n w a s t h e
e x tr a s th a t w a s fi t te d o n t o t h e n e x t o r t h e s e c o n d M e r c e d e s a s p e r
G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s i n s tr u c ti o n to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e n e x t v e h i c l e C h a ir i s
a B M W 5 3 0 D i e s e l S e d a n , t h i s v e h ic l e w a s p u r c h a s e d fr o m N i e u h a u s ,
10

t h a t is in P r e t o r ia , t h e a m o u n t b e i n g R 7 0 6 1 5 0 , p u r c h a s e d b y C o m p a n y
X . C h a ir t h e n e x t o n e a b la c k J e e p , G e n e r a l M d lu li a ls o m a d e u s e o f
t h is v e h ic le C h a ir, h o w e v e r t h i s w a s n o t p u r c h a s e d s p e c i fic a lly f o r
G e n e r a l M d l u l i , th is v e h i c l e w a s p r e v i o u s l y u t il is e d b y C o m m i s s io n
M p e g o w h e n h e w a s th e D i v is i o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r.

When General

M d lu li w a s a p p o i n te d fo r a s h o r t p e r i o d h e m a d e u s e o f t h is v e h ic le .
C h a ir h o w e v e r h e w a s n o t v e r y h a p p y w i th t h i s v e h ic l e a n d t h is v e h ic le
w a s r e d ir e c te d to a n o t h e r Pr o v in c e , I th i n k i t w a s K Z N .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

C h a ir t h e n I g o to t h e

n e x t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e – I ’ m s o r r y – t h e B M W 5 3 0 D a t t h e t o p o f th e

p a g e w a s i t b o u g h t w it h m o n e y fr o m th e S e c u r i ti e s S e c r e t S e r v ic e
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 142 of 170

S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t ,

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d a c tu a l ly a ll t h e s e v e h ic l e s w e r e p u r c h a s e d
u s i n g t h e f u n d s fr o m t h a t a c c o u n t , o t h e r t h a n t h e f ir s t o n e w h i c h y o u
said was the Audi Q7.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s p u r c h a s e d t h r o u g h t h e O p e n Ac c o u n t
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , y e s , c o n t in u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th e b l a c k J e e p li k e
I m e n ti o n e d th a t w a s n o t p u r c h a s e d s p e c if ic a l ly f o r G e n e r a l M d l u l i , i t
10

w a s a v e h ic l e p r e v io u s ly u t il is e d b y t h e t h e n C I H e a d C o m m i s s io n e r
M p e g o . G e n e r a l M d l u li m a d e u s e o f th is v e h ic le f o r a v e r y s h o r t p e r io d
C h a ir, a f e w m o n t h s i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y a n d i t w a s r e d ir e c t e d t o
another Province.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir th e n e x t v e h i c l e a

L e x u s , th is v e h ic le w a s i n i t ia ll y p u r c h a s e d b y C o m p a n y X fo r G e n e r a l
N tw e C h a ir.

I w il l t e s t i fy t o t h is a l it t le l a te r o n a n d g iv e m o r e d e t a il

b u t t h is v e h i c l e a l s o p u r c h a s e d in i ti a l ly f o r t h e in t e n t i o n t o b e g i v e n t o
G e n e r a l N t w e , s h e d i d n o t l ik e t h i s v e h ic le s o G e n e r a l M d l u l i m a d e u s e
20

o f t h i s v e h i c l e fo r a f e w m o n t h s , n o n o t a f e w m o n t h s i t w a s u n ti l h is
a r r e s t i n 2 0 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h o w a s r e s p o n s i b le f o r th e p e tr o l c l a i ms in

r e s p e c t o f th e s e v e h i c l e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 143 of 170

C h a ir

all

of

these

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
v e h ic l e s t h a t I h a v e r e fe r r e d t o w a s m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty C h a ir, t h i s w a s a n
in s t r u c t i o n th a t w a s g iv e n to m e b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h a t I w o u l d b e
p e r s o n a l ly r e s p o n s i b l e . C h a ir th e s e c la i m s w e r e n o t d o n e , a s o p p o s e d
t o n o r m a l v e h i c l e s th e s e c l a i ms w e r e n o t d o n e o n a m o n t h l y b a s i s .
W h e n e v e r I w o u l d g e t r e c e i p ts fr o m G e n e r a l M d lu li I w o u l d c o m p l e t e
t h e lo g b o o k s o r t h e p e tr o l c la i m C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o d id t h e a v a i la b i li ty o f a ll t h e s e v e h ic le s to h i m

m e a n t h a t h e c o u ld l e a v e h is o ffic ia l c a r a n d u s e a n y o n e o f th o s e
v e h ic l e s th a t w e r e a v a i la b l e t o h i m a s h e s a w f it ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d id a n y o n e e ls e h a v e u s e o f t h e s e

v e h ic l e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o t th a t I a m a w a r e o f

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t a r e t h e c h a n c e s t h a t t h e r e c o u ld b e s o m e b o d y

e ls e o r o t h e r p e o p l e u s e t h e m a n d y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f
it ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

th e r e

is

a

p o s s i b il it y b u t i t i s g o in g t o b s p e c u l a t i o n s o I w o u l d n o t s p e c u la t e
20

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o i t c o u l d b e th a t th e y w e r e o r s o m e o f t h e m

were used by one or more other people but you might not know?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C o lo n e l N a i d o o d id y o u e v e r p r o c e s s

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
p e tr o l c la i m s fo r a n y o t h e r p e r s o n a t C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e in r e s p e c t o f
t h e s e v e h i c l e s ? D id y o u h e a r m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o r r y M s W e n t z e l , p l e a s e
repeat?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

D id y o u e v e r p r o c e s s p e tr o l c la i m s b y

a n y b o d y e ls e a t C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e in r e s p e c t o f t h e s e v e h i c l e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

No, not – no, no.

C H A I R P E R S O N : I f a n y o n e e l s e u s e d th e m a n d i n t h e p r o c e s s o f d o i n g
s o h a d to p u t in p e t r o l a n d o n e – o h a n d h a d t o p u t i n p e tr o l . . .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir p a r d o n m e , I d i d

n o t h e a r t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex c u s e m e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O h s o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

If anybody used any one or more of the vehicles at

a n y s ta g e o t h e r t h a n G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d d i d p u t i n p e tr o l w o u ld y o u
h a v e b e e n t h e o n l y p e r s o n t o w h o m th e y w o u ld h a v e h a d to s u b m i t
p e tr o l s l ip s o r c o u l d t h e y s u b m i t th e m t o s o m e b o d y e l s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir th a t w o u l d a l s o b e

s p e c u l a ti o n , i f s o m e b o d y e ls e w i t h i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e h a d in d e e d
20

a c c e s s t o t h e s e v e h i c l e s t h e r e is a p o s s ib il i ty t h a t t h e y c o u ld h a v e
u s e d t h e v e h i c l e s , p u t i n p e tr o l a n d d o n e t h e c l a i m s e p a r a te ly t o w h a t I
w a s r e c e i v e d fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i i n te r ms o f th e r e c e ip ts , s o t h e r e i s a
p o s s i b il it y y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t u s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Are you okay?

C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m tr y i n g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I c a n s e e C h a ir. I f y o u in d ic a t e t o u s y o u

a r e n o t f e e l in g fi n e y o u w i ll l e t u s k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us try and see how far we can go.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o a t p a r a g r a p h . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

Maybe I might – maybe we should take a short

a d j o u r n m e n t , I c o u l d a r r a n g e fo r s o m e p r e s c r i p ti o n , f u r th e r p r e s c r ip t i o n
fr o m t h e d o c to r b e fo r e t h e y l e a v e .
L e t ’s t a k e t e n m i n u t e s , w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w e n t y p a s t th r e e .
W e w i ll a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . C o l o n e l
20

N a i d o o c o u l d y o u p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h e v e h i c l e p u r c h a s e d fo r
t h e u s e b y M i n is te r M t h e t h w a ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

Ye s C h a ir t h is w a s a

M e r c e d e s B e n z M L 3 5 0 . T h is v e h ic l e w a s p u r c h a s e d a t M e r c e d e s B e n z
U m h l a n g a R o c k s o r U m h l a n g a C h a ir.
v e h ic l e w a s R 3 7 3 8 5 0 . 0 0 C h a ir.

T h e a m o u n t – t h i s p a r tic u la r

C h a ir I h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
t h is v e h i c l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y e a r w a s t h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

T h is w a s in – w o u l d

p r o b a b ly b e i n 2 0 0 9 o r 2 0 1 0 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

Ye s t h e p r ic e w a s R 3 7 3 8 5 0 .0 0 .

R 3 7 3 8 5 0 .0 0 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
COLONEL
10

D H A N A J AYA

GANGULU

NAIDOO:

Th is

v e h ic l e

was

s p e c i f ic a l ly p u r c h a s e d f o r u s e b y t h e t h e n M i n is te r o f P o l ic e M i n i s te r
N a t h i M t h e th w a . C h a i r it w a s m y s e lf a n d C o l o n e l F M 11 w h o d e liv e r e d
t h is v e h i c l e t o M in is t e r M t h e t h w a ’s r e s id e n c e i n Pr e to r i a .

T h is

p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e C h a ir t h a t I r e f e r t o w a s r e g i s t e r e d i n t h e n a m e o f
F M 11 .
CHAIRPERSON: FM?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
u til is e d th is v e h i c l e f o r a fe w m o n t h s .
20

C h a ir t h e M in is t e r

I r e m e m b e r t h is b e c a u s e

G e n e r a l M d l u l i w h e n I m e t h i m a t h is o ff ic e o n o n e o c c a s i o n h e
in s t r u c t e d m e t o p i c k u p t h e v e h i c l e f r o m t h e M i n i s te r ’s h o u s e a s th e
M i n is t e r i n f o r m e d h i m t h a t h e n o l o n g e r w a n t e d t o m a k e u s e o f t h is
v e h ic l e a s j o u r n a li s ts w e r e f o l l o w i n g h i m . I r e m e m b e r C h a ir I s p o k e t o
F M 11 t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r t h e v e h ic l e to b e f e t c h e d fr o m M i n i s te r
M t h e th w a ’s h o u s e .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W a s th is a v e h i c le t h a t w a s p u r c h a s e d w i t h

m o n e y o r f u n d s f r o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Purchased through Company X.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e r e a ll p u r c h a s e s o f g o o d s o r w e r e a ll

p a y m e n t s m a d e b y C o m p a n y X fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t o r w e r e
t h e r e s o m e p a y m e n ts th a t w e r e m a d e b y C o m p a n y X fr o m t h e o p e n
account?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

C h a ir a ll o f t h e s e

v e h ic l e s t h a t I m e n ti o n e d e x c e p t t h e A u d i Q 7 w e r e p u r c h a s e d w it h
f u n d s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t u l ti m a t e l y b e i n g C o m p a n y X .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d i n r e g a r d to t h i s o n e y o u a r e s u r e a b o u t t h a t
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. S o a r r a n g e m e n ts – G e n e r a l M d l u l i g a v e
in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t a r r a n g e m e n ts s h o u l d b e m a d e t o – f o r t h e v e h ic l e t o
b e f e tc h e d fr o m M i n is t e r M t h e t h w a ’s r e s i d e n c e i n Pr e to r i a ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. H e
in s t r u c t e d m e t o r e t r i e v e th e v e h i c l e fr o m t h e M i n is te r ’s h o u s e a s t h e
M i n is t e r n o lo n g e r w a n te d to m a k e u s e o f th a t p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e a s h e

20

m e n ti o n e d t o G e n e r a l M d l u li t h a t j o u r n a lis ts w e r e f o l lo w in g h i m .

I

t h e r e a f te r m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts w it h C o lo n e l F M 11 C h a ir t o p ic k u p t h e
v e h ic l e fr o m t h e M i n i s te r ’s h o u s e .

F M 11 k n e w w h e r e t h e M in is t e r ’s

h o u s e w a s b e c a u s e h e h a d p r e v i o u s l y w e n t t h e r e w it h m e d e li v e r t h e
v e h ic l e i n i ti a lly C h a ir. T h is v e h ic l e w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n t h e v e h i c l e w a s d e liv e r e d fo r t h e fir s t ti m e w e r e

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
you part of that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir I a r r a n g e d w i th
F M 11 t o d r iv e t h e v e h ic l e b e c a u s e h e h a d n o t k n o w n a t th a t s t a g e
w h e r e M in is t e r M t h e t h w a s t a y e d . I d i d C h a ir b e c a u s e o n p r e v i o u s – o n
a p r e v io u s fe w o c c a s i o n s I h a d t a k e n o r d r iv e n G e n e r a l M d l u li t h e r e f o r
a m e e ti n g t h a t h e w a s h a v in g w i t h t h e M i n is t e r. S o I k n e w w h e r e t h e
r e s id e n c e w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Ye s o k a y. S o w h e n it w a s t o b e fe tc h e d y o u a ls o
w e n t to t h e M i n i s te r ’s r e s id e n c e t o g e t h e r w it h M F 11 ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U

NAIDOO:

No

C h a ir

I made

a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h F M 11 t o f e tc h th e v e h ic l e f r o m t h e M in is t e r ’s h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is t i m e h e k n e w t h e w a y t o g e t t h e r e /
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a ir h a v i n g b e e n t h e r e
t h e f ir s t ti m e w i th m e t o d e l iv e r t h e v e h ic l e y e s h e d i d k n o w w h e r e t h e
p r e m is e s w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y c o n ti n u e .
COLONEL

D H A N A J AYA

G A N G U LU

NAIDOO:

C h a ir

after

F M 11

c o l l e c ti n g th e v e h i c l e fr o m M i n i s t e r M t h e t h w a t h e v e h ic le w a s p a r k e d a t
o u r v e h ic le s t o r e – w h e n I s a y o u r i t i s C I v e h ic l e s to r e .
20

o c c a s i o n a l ly u s e d b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .

It was

On at least one occasion we

u s e d t h i s p a r t ic u l a r o r h e u s e d t h is p a r t i c u l a r v e h ic l e t o I s l a n d R o c k .
C h a ir t h i s v e h i c l e w a s t h e r e a f t e r d r iv e n t o C a p e To w n . I t w a s u t il is e d
b y G e n e r a l M d l u li . I f I a m g iv e n to u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c tl y I th in k t h i s is
t h e s a m e v e h ic le t h a t w a s – t h is w a s t h e v e h ic l e th a t w a s r e g is t e r e d in
the name of FM24.

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON:

I n i t ia ll y i t w a s – y o u s a i d i t w a s r e g is t e r e d in th e

n a m e o f F M 11 is it n o t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t r e g i s t r a t io n c h a n g e d a f t e r w a r d s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

R e g is te r e d i n th e n a m e o f F M 2 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u a b l e t o s a y f o r h o w lo n g t h e v e h i c l e w a s w i th
M i n is t e r M t h e th w a ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a ir i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n
10

p r o b a b ly a fe w m o n th s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o t m o r e t h a n a y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o w v e h ic l e s th a t a r e b o u g h t b y N a ti o n a l
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e d o t h e y – d o e s C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e e v e r b u y v e h i c l e s
f o r M i n i s te r s – f o r M i n is t e r o f P o l ic e ? I t a k e i t t h a t h e w a s M i n is te r o f
P o lic e a t t h e t i m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir h e
w a s t h e M i n is t e r o f P o li c e . I n t e r m s o f h i m u s i n g a v e h ic l e fr o m C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e I c a n n o t b e c e r t a i n C h a ir. I a m n o t s u r e w h a t t h e p o li c y i s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr i g h t.

Ye s .

And in terms of you have no

r e c o l l e c ti o n a ls o in t e r m s o f k il o m e tr e s t h a t i t w o u ld h a v e tr a v e l l e d
d u r i n g t h e t i m e th a t i t w a s w it h h i m w h e n it w a s r e t u r n e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

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C h a ir I c a n n o t s a y

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
e x a c tl y b u t i t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n u s e d e x t e n s iv e ly b e c a u s e i t w a s j u s t
a few months.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So it would have been

f a ir ly – s t il l fa ir l y n e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D i d y o u h a v e a n y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e c o n te x t
f o r th e s t a t e m e n t t h a t a c c o r d i n g to G e n e r a l M d l u l i th e M i n i s te r d id n o t
w a n t to c o n ti n u e u s i n g t h e c a r b e c a u s e jo u r n a li s t s w e r e f o ll o w i n g h i m ?
D o y o u h a v e – d i d y o u h a v e a n y u n d e r s ta n d w h a t t h a t w a s a b o u t ? W h y
10

w o u ld jo u r n a l is ts h a v e b e e n fo ll o w i n g h i m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir f r o m w h a t I a m – I
a m g iv e n to u n d e r s t a n d fr o m th is i n s tr u c ti o n th a t – o r c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t
I h a d w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i r e g a r d in g t h e v e h ic l e a n d j o u r n a li s t s fo ll o w i n g
t h e M i n is te r. I b e l i e v e C h a ir t h a t t h i s w a s n o t a – o r a b o v e b o a r d
tr a n s a c ti o n b e i n g a fr a i d t h a t j o u r n a l is ts w e r e fo ll o w i n g h i m h e w a s
r e l u c t a n t th e r e a ft e r to u s e th is v e h ic le a n d i n s tr u c te d m e t o r e tr ie v e th e
said vehicle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

20

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Could you then deal with

the vehicle purchased for General Nchwe?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir th is w a s a –

C h a ir a s I s a i d i n i t ia ll y w h e n I r e f e r r e d t o th e v e h ic l e t h a t w a s b e i n g
u til is e d b y G e n e r a l M d lu li t h e L e x u s C h a i r t h i s p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e w a s
in it i a l ly p u r c h a s e d f o r th e u s e o f G e n e r a l N c h w e .

C h a ir w h e n th is –

w h e n t h i s v e h ic l e w a s p u r c h a s e d h e d id n o t l ik e t h i s v e h i c l e . T h a t is

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
h o w G e n e r a l M d l u l i c a m e a b o u t m a k i n g u s e o f t h i s p a r ti c u la r v e h ic l e .
W i th r e g a r d s t o G e n e r a l N c h w e ’s v e h i c l e a v e h ic l e w a s p u r c h a s e d f o r
h e r. I t w a s a n A u d i Q 4 C h a i r 3 l i tr e T D I. I d o n o t h a v e th e d o c u m e n ts
in fr o n t o f m e s o I c a n n o t s a y w h a t t h e v a l u e o f th is p a r tic u la r v e h i c l e
was.

C h a ir b u t I h a v e in s i g h t a s to h o w t h is v e h ic le w a s o r w h y t h is

v e h ic l e w a s p r o c u r e d f o r th is p a r t ic u l a r in d i v i d u a l .

C h a ir i t w a s i n

a r o u n d 2 0 1 0 t h i s w a s w h e n th e p r o m o ti o n – I a m s p e a k i n g n o w o f t h e
2 5 0 p o s ts w h ic h is c o m m o n ly k n o w n a t th e 2 5 0 p o s t . I t w a s a r o u n d th a t
ti m e 2 0 1 0 .
10

I t w a s p r o b a b l y i n t h e f ir s t – fi r s t h a l f o f 2 0 1 0 .

General

M d lu li c a ll e d m e h e w a s a t h i s o ff ic e – C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e H e a d O ff ic e .
H e a s k e d m e to fe t c h h i m . Th e r e a ft e r p r o c e e d e d – h e i n f o r m e d m e t h a t
h e is h a v i n g a m e e t in g w i th G e n e r a l N c h w e a n d t h a t I s h o u ld d r iv e h i m
t h e r e w h ic h I d i d .

C h a ir I w a i te d fo r h i m .

When he came back he

m e n ti o n e d a n d h e s m i le d o r l a u g h e d a b i t. H e s a i d h e y S o l ly m u s t b u y
t h is a u n ty a c a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h o w a s s a y i n g t h a t a n d s a y i n g to w h o m o r in

r e l a ti o n t o w h o m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General Mdluli said to

m e S o lly y o u m u s t b u y t h is a u n ty a c a r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o is S o l ly n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
s o r r y C h a ir.

I f I c a n e x p l a in ?

S o ll y i f I ju s t – if I –

S o l ly b e i n g t h e r e f e r e n c e t o G e n e r a l

Lazarus and aunty being the reference to General Nchwe.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w a s S o lly G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ n a m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n ic k n a m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H is n a m e S o l o m o n

Lazarus.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o l o m o n . O k a y a lr i g h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a t t h a t s t a g e th e r e
w a s th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n – o k a y C h a i r s o r r y I a m g o in g t o – I a m
g o i n g t o n o t s p e a k o n t h a t b e c a u s e i t is s p e c u la t io n .
10

I a m g o i n g to

s p e a k o f w h a t I k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W h a t I c a n s a y i s t h a t a t
that stage General Nchwe was not employed at CI. I think she was the
D i v is io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r o f H e a d o f H u m a n R e s o u r c e s a t t h e S A P S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S h e h a d n o d e a li n g s w i t h
Crime

I n te ll i g e n c e

or

rather

she

did

have

d e a li n g s

w i th

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e b u t s h e w a s n o t s ta t io n e d a t C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .

C h a ir

w h a t I c a n s a y f u r t h e r is t h a t t h is p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e w a s p u r c h a s e d fo r
20

General Nchwe.

I t o g e t h e r w i t h F M 0 2 w h o is a c tu a lly a r e l a ti v e o f

General Lazarus.

F M 0 2 C h a ir w a s a t t h a t s ta g e l iv i n g w i th G e n e r a l

L a z a r u s a t h i s h o u s e . I g o t a c a ll fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . H e a s k e d m e
t o c o m e t o h is h o m e . H e f u r t h e r i n s tr u c t e d m e I – w h e n I g o t t h e r e I
s a w t h i s p a r ti c u la r v e h i c l e t h a t I s p e a k o f C h a ir.

I t w a s a – a w h it e

A u d i Q 5 . I t w a s p a r k e d in h is d r i v e w a y. H e i n s tr u c t e d m e to g e th e r w it h

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
F M 0 2 t o t a k e t h e v e h i c l e a n d d e li v e r i t to G e n e r a l N c h w e . T h is w a s a t
h e r r e s i d e n c e in B e d fo r d v i e w C h a ir. I t h i n k it w a s E s s e x W o r ld .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

F M 0 2 d r o v e t h e v e h ic le

a n d I fo ll o w e d h i m t o G e n e r a l N c h w e ’s h o u s e .

Chair I met General

N c h w e i n h e r d r iv e w a y a n d s h e p e r s o n a l ly t o o k p o s s e s s i o n o f t h i s
v e h ic l e . I h a n d e d o v e r t h e k e y s . A t t h a t s ta g e t h e v e h ic le h a d – h a d
b e e n – i t w a s n o t r e g is te r e d C h a ir.

It h a d th o s e t e m p o r a r y p l a t e s .

I

a ls o r e m e m b e r v e r y c l e a r ly C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: So it was brand new?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t w a s b r a n d n e w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I a l s o r e m e m b e r o n t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r d a t e w h e n I d e l iv e r e d th is v e h ic le i t w a s p a r k e d o n a
driveway not on the roadside.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a i r a n d s h e s a id t o m e
– a r e y o u j u s t g o i n g to – b e f o r e I l e f t a f t e r h a n d i n g t h e k e y s o v e r t o
h e r.

20

S h e s a id to m e – a r e y o u g o in g t o p a r k t h e – y o u ju s t g o i n g to

p a r k th is v e h ic l e o n t h e r o a d s id e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o I w a s n o t r e a l ly s u r e
w h a t s h e m e a n t b y t h a t b e c a u s e t h e v e h ic l e w a s p a r k e d i n s i d e h e r
p r o p e r ty o n t h e d r iv e w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e d r iv e w a y. Ye s .

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

S o I r e a l ly d o n o t k n o w

w h a t s h e m e a n t b y t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
p a y m u c h a t t e n t io n t o t h a t C h a ir.

Nevertheless I did not

Th e v e h ic l e l ik e I m e n ti o n e d h a d

temporary plates.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u l e f t t h e v e h ic le w h e r e i t w a s p a r k e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

In h e r d r i v e w a y a t h e r

p r e m is e s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a lt h o u g h I d i d n o t
r e g is t e r th is p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e m y s e lf b u t I d id f a c i li t a t e in t h e v e h i c l e
b e i n g r e g is t e r e d o n G e n e r a l N c h w e ’s n a m e .
CHAIRPERSON: On whose name?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

O n G e n e r a l N c h w e ’s

name.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o it w a s r e g is t e r e d i n h e r p e r s o n a l – a s h e r

personal car?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

In order for me to – to

f a c i li t a te th is p r o c e s s I r e q u ir e d c e r ta i n d o c u m e n ts C h a ir fr o m h e r
n a m e ly h e r ID a n d a u ti li ty b il l .

I f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y I h a d a

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d I t h i n k h e f a c i li t a te d t h i s fo r m e t o
r e c e i v e th o s e d o c u m e n ts i n o r d e r f o r m e h a v e t h e v e h ic l e r e g is t e r e d i n

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
G e n e r a l N c h w e ’s n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C a n I t a k e y o u b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h 1 8 2 ? Th e r e
y o u s a y th a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s in f o r m e d y o u t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i h a d
s u g g e s t e d th a t y o u p u r c h a s e o r I g u e s s C I p u r c h a s e a v e h ic le f o r
General Nchwe?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
Lazarus.

A s th e r e w a s b a d b l o o d b e tw e e n h e r a n d G e n e r a l

W h y w o u l d b a d b l o o d b e tw e e n G e n e r a l N c h w e a n d G e n e r a l

L a z a r u s b e th e r e a s o n fo r h e r to b e b o u g h t a c a r b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O : C h a ir i f I – s ti ll o n 1 8 2 a s
y o u r e fe r r e d . I f I c a n ju s t c o r r e c t ? T h is is in c o r r e c t C h a ir. I f I c a n j u s t
r e c t if y t h a t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It was not General

L a z a r u s w h o i n fo r m e d m e t h a t G e n e r a l M d lu li b u y a v e h ic le fo r G e n e r a l
N c h w e . I i n f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s o f t h i s – o f th is a r r a n g e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u in f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i
h a d s u g g e s t e d t h a t y o u p u r c h a s e a v e h ic le fo r G e n e r a l N c h w e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O : Ye s C h a ir. A f t e r – a f t e r –
20

a s I h a v e t e s ti f ie d a l r e a d y. A f t e r d r o p p i n g G e n e r a l M d lu li o ff fr o m t h is
m e e ti n g t h a t h e h a d w i th G e n e r a l N c h w e a n d a f t e r h a v in g t h a t
d is c u s s io n w i t h m e r e g a r d i n g t h e p u r c h a s e o f th is v e h i c l e f o r G e n e r a l
N c h w e I – I in f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a b o u t w h a t t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e
d is c u s s io n I h a d w i t h M r M d l u l i . B u t I i n f o r m e d h i m a ls o t h a t G e n e r a l
M d lu li w i ll s p e a k to h i m f u r t h e r w h e n h e s e e s h i m .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y a n y t h i n g a l o n g t h e li n e s t o – t h a t is n o w
t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h a t t h e r e w a s b a d b lo o d b e t w e e n G e n e r a l M d lu li
and General Nchwe?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir n o t G e n e r a l M d l u li
b e t w e e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d G e n e r a l N c h w e . B u t a ls o I a m g o i n g t o
s tr a y a w a y fr o m t h a t C h a i r b e c a u s e t h a t is a n a s s u m p ti o n .

Because

t h is w a s a t i m e w h e n t h e p o s t – th e 2 5 0 p o s ts w e r e – w e r e i n t h e
process of being concluded.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u g o in g t o s ta y a w a y fr o m i t i n r e la t io n t o – i n
10

r e l a ti o n t o w h a t th is r e l a te d t o o r e v e n w h e t h e r t h i s w a s s a i d y o u a r e
n o t s u r e a b o u t – a b o u t i t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir w h a t I a m g o i n g t o
– w h a t I a m s u r e o f is t h a t t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t I h a d w i t h G e n e r a l
M d lu li r e g a r d i n g t h e p u r c h a s e o f th e s a i d v e h ic le f o r G e n e r a l N c h w e b u t
I w il l s t a y a w a y fr o m t h e a s s u m p t io n th a t t h e r e w a s b a d b l o o d .
CHAIRPERSON:

The reason.

Yo u w i ll s t a y a w a y f r o m t h e r e a s o n o r

m o t iv e f o r b u y i n g t h e c a r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t a p a r t f r o m w h a t y o u m a y h a v e b e e n t o l d b y
20

G e n e r a l M d l u l i a r e y o u a b le t o e n l i g h t e n m e o n w h y G e n e r a l M d l u l i o r
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e h a d t o b u y G e n e r a l N c h w e a m o t o r v e h ic le w h e n s h e
w a s n o t p a r t o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e ?

O r is t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u k n o w

nothing about?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
d ir e c t ly o n – o n w h a t I s a i d …

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
CHAIRPERSON: On what you are not sure about?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t I n e e d t o s tr a y a w a y
fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

So I cannot go further

t h a n th a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n t e r m s o f t h e r e a s o n i n g
b e h in d th e p u r c h a s e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t i s f i n e . Ye s M s W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a id o o i n th e C I ’s a s s e t r e g is t e r i n

w h o s e n a m e w a s t h is v e h i c l e r e g is t e r e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir th is v e h ic le w a s

r e g is t e r e d a s a n a s s e t a g a i n s t m y n a m e C h a ir. B u t it w a s n o t a c tu a lly
r e g is t e r e d a s a n A u d i Q 4 C h a ir i t w a s r e g is te r e d a s a n A u d i A 4 . T h is
w a s in t e n ti o n a lly d o n e a s t o n o t a t tr a c t a n y a t te n ti o n t o t h e r e l e v a n t
p e o p l e w h o w o u l d b e a u d i t in g C I b o o k s .

T h is in s tr u c ti o n o r th is

arrangement was told to me By Colonel Barnard.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I a m t r y in g t o l o o k a t y o u r a ff i d a v i t to s e e
20

w h e r e y o u – o h t h i s is 1 8 4 w h e r e y o u s a y t h e v e h i c l e w a s – s a id
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h e n a r r a n g e d f o r t h e p u r c h a s in g o f a w h i te A u d i Q 5
3 .0 T D I . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s t h e v e h ic le t h a t w a s p u r c h a s e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

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T h a t is i n d e e d th e

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
v e h ic l e t h a t I d e li v e r e d to G e n e r a l N c h w e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – b u t y o u s a y i n t h e a s s e t r e g is t e r o f C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e t h e p o s i ti o n w a s m is r e p r e s e n t e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e t r u e id e n t i ty o f th a t
v e h ic l e w a s m is r e p r e s e n t e d C h a ir.

It was not an Audi Q4 but it was

c a p tu r e d a s a n A u d i A 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h a t w a s t h e r e a s o n f o r t h a t? Yo u s a y n o t t o
a tt r a c t a t te n ti o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . T h i s w a s
10

d e li b e r a t e n o t t o a t tr a c t a n y a t te n ti o n t o m y s e l f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

B e c a u s e C h a ir a t th a t

s t a g e t h is w a s q u i t e a n e x tr a v a g a n t v e h ic l e f o r m e to d r iv e a s a
Lieutenant Colonel.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n e n t i tl e d t o a c a r o f th a t

value?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h o s e i d e a w a s i t th a t t h e tr u e – t h e n a tu r e
o f t h e c a r b e m is r e p r e s e n t e d ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h is w a s d o n e b y C o l o n e l
B a r n a r d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w i th y o u r a p p r o v a l – w i t h y o u r k n o w l e d g e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o lo n e l B a r n a r d C h a ir a t

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
that stage was the Head of …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o c u r e m e n t.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h e Pr o c u r e m e n t S e c t i o n
at CI.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e H e a d o f Pr o c u r e m e n t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d h e a ls o k n e w w h e r e t h e v e h ic le w a s ? W h o
w o u ld b e u s i n g t h e v e h i c l e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m n o t s u r e i f h e k n e w
w h o t h a t v e h ic l e w e n t t o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

And did he know that there was

m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o r h e tr u ly b e li e v e d th a t t h e v e h ic l e t h e o n e th a t w a s
w r i t t e n o n t h e a s s e t r e g i s te r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair he would – he

d e f in i te ly w o u ld h a v e k n o w n b e c a u s e t h e s u g g e s ti o n c a m e fr o m h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

O k a y.

S o – s o t h e – y o u – y o u t a lk e d

e a r l ie r o n a b o u t G e n e r a l N c h w e g iv in g y o u h e r ID a n d u ti li ty b il l. W a s
20

t h a t b e c a u s e a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t t h e v e h ic l e w a s t o b e
r e g is t e r e d in h e r n a m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t o n t h e a s s e t r e g i s t e r a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e it

w o u ld b e r e f le c t e d d i ff e r e n tl y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

Page 160 of 170

That is indeed correct

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W h a t w a s g o i n g to h a p p e n in t e r m s o f th is

a r r a n g e m e n t t o p e tr o l s l ip s a n d s o o n ? B e c a u s e i f a c a r i s u n d e r th e –
u n d e r C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d is u s e d – b e i n g u s e d fo r t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e o n e w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e p e tr o l s l ip s
t h a t w o u l d b e b r o u g h t i n fr o m t i m e t o ti m e . D i d t h i s h a p p e n i n r e g a r d
t o t h i s c a r e v e n th o u g h i t w a s b e in g u s e d b y G e n e r a l N c h w e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

What I can

s a y w i th r e g a r d s t o w h a t y o u ju s t m e n ti o n e d . A l t h o u g h th e s a i d v e h ic le
10

w a s a ll o c a te d o n my n a m e o n t h e C I R e g i s t e r. C h a ir fr o m t h e t i m e t h a t
t h is v e h i c l e w a s p u r c h a s e d a n d s u b s e q u e n tly h a n d e d o v e r to G e n e r a l
N c h w e u p u n til t h e t i m e th a t I w a s a d m i t t e d i n to t h e w i t n e s s p r o t e c t i o n
p r o g r a m I h a d n o t r e c e iv e d a s i n g l e r e c e i p t i n t e r m s o f p e tr o l s li p s o r
a n y o t h e r r e c e i p ts r e g a r d in g t h is v e h ic l e C h a ir. S o b a s ic a l ly th e r e w a s
– th e r e w o u l d b e n o c l a i m s p o s te d a g a i n s t t h i s v e h ic le i n t h e t i m e fr a m e
t h a t I m e n t io n e d b e c a u s e I h a d n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y – a n y r e c e ip ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f c o u r s e i f t h e y c a m e w o u ld a n y t h i n g w r i tt e n i n
t h e m b e tr a y t h e li e t h a t w a s t o b e fo u n d i n t h e a s s e t r e g is t e r ? I n o t h e r
w o r d s w o u l d t h e p e tr o l s li p r e fl e c t th a t i t i s a d i ffe r e n t c a r – a m u c h …

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e p e tr o l s l ip – t h e

p e tr o l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w o u l d t h e y n o t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e p e tr o l s l ip n o C h a ir
b e c a u s e t h a t w o u ld j u s t b e a n o r m a l p e tr o l s l ip th a t y o u w o u l d fi ll i n
a n y o t h e r v e h ic l e .

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B u t i n te r m s o f th is

v e h ic l e b e i n g r e g is t e r e d o n t h e s y s t e m i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a ll o c a t e d a
S R n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o i f o n e h a d t o p u n c h i n
t h a t a s s e t o r r a th e r s o r r y S R n u m b e r i t w o u l d c o m e u p a s a n A u d i A 4
and not an Audi Q5.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o a ll t h e p l a c e s w h e r e i n f o r m a t i o n n e e d e d t o b e
10

c h a n g e d i n o r d e r to a c c o r d w i t h th e m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s h a d b e e n
changed?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r w h e n t h e i n it i a l –

w h e n th e in i ti a l c h a n g e w a s m a d e a s t o d is g u is e th e tr u e i d e n ti t y o f t h is
v e h ic l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O n c e i t w a s c a p t u r e d o n
the system as an A4…
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w i ll r e m a in li k e t h a t J a .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W h e r e v e r y o u g o in a n y –
20

s o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It r e m a in e d l ik e t h a t t h r o u g h o u t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : E x a c tly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t. S o – b u t i f th e r e w e r e n o p e t r o l
s li p s a n y b o d y i n v e s ti g a t i n g w o u l d h a v e f o u n d i t s tr a n g e t h a t th e r e w e r e
n o p e tr o l s l ip s f o r a l o n g p e r i o d o f t i m e i n r e g a r d t o a v e h i c l e t h a t w a s

Page 162 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
s u p p o s e d to b e u s e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir t h e r e w o u l d h a v e

b e e n q u e r ie s a n d I h a d a f e w – a t a l a t e r s t a g e o r a f e w m o n th s l a t e r I
d i d t h is – I d i d b r i n g th is t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d
in f o r m e d h i m t h a t – t h a t I w a s – t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g fo r t h c o m i n g f r o m
G e n e r a l N c h w e w i t h r e g a r d s to a n y e x p e n s e s w i t h r e s p e c t to t h is
v e h ic l e .

C h a ir G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n s tr u c t e d m e t o c o n t a c t G e n e r a l

N c h w e t o e n q u ir e fr o m h e r a s t o w h a t th e p o s i ti o n w a s in t e r m s o f th e
c o s t – in t e r m s o f p e t r o l e tc e t e r a . C h a ir I n e v e r g o t a r o u n d t o m e e ti n g
10

G e n e r a l N c h w e I w a s s u b s e q u e n tl y a d m it t e d i n t o t h e w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n
p r o g r a m . S o I d o n o t k n o w w h a t b e c a m e o f t h i s v e h i c l e in te r ms o f – o r
p h y s i c a ll y w h e r e i t is n o w o r a n y e x p e n s e s r e l a te d t o t h i s v e h ic l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a ls o I ta k e i t t h a t i f i t w a s a v e h i c l e u n d e r

N a t io n a l – u n d e r C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e o n e w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t w h e n e v e r i t
h a d to b e s e r v ic e d t h e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n t a t i o n w o u ld h a v e h a d t o b e
p u t in t o t h e r e c o r d s o f C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e , i s t h a t r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n t h i s c a s e th e r e w o u ld b e – th e r e c e r t a i n ly

w o u ld b e n o r e c o r d s o f a n y s u c h d o c u m e n ts a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e f o r
20

the period that you were there?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r I h a d n o t r e c e iv e d
a n y d o c u m e n ts f r o m G e n e r a l N c h w e r e g a r d i n g th is p a r ti c u la r v e h ic l e s o
yes I would say…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : F r o m m y k n o w le d g e I d o

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
n o t h a v e a n y d o c u m e n ts r e g a r d i n g t h is v e h ic l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

E x c e p t th a t i t w a s

r e g is t e r e d o n h e r n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d n o r m a l ly y o u w o u l d b e th e p e r s o n w h o w o u l d
k n o w i f t h e r e w e r e d o c u m e n t s s u g g e s t in g t h a t i t w a s t a k e n f o r a s e r v ic e
u n d e r C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

C o l o n e l N a id o o a f t e r y o u

d e li v e r e d t h is v e h ic l e t o G e n e r a l N c h w e d i d y o u e v e r h a v e c o n t a c t w it h
her again?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir y e s I d i d .

I

r e m e m b e r o n o n e o c c a s io n I a c c o m p a n i e d F M 11 C h a i r t o d e li v e r a n ip a d t o G e n e r a l N c h w e a t t h i s r e s id e n c e t h a t I s p e a k o f. E s s e x W o r ld
B e d fo r d v i e w. C h a ir a t th a t s ta g e s h e h a d a lr e a d y r e c e iv e d h e r v e h i c l e .
A n d G e n e r a l N c h w e d id n o t g iv e m e a n y d o c u m e n ts r e g a r d i n g t h is
s p e c i f ic v e h i c l e .

B e it l ik e y o u m e n t io n e d i f i t w a s s e r v i c e d o r a n y

p e tr o l r e c e ip t s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d y o u h a v e c a u s e to g o t o h e r p r e m is e s
a g a in b e s i d e s d e liv e r i n g t h e v e h i c l e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir y e s I d id .

There

w e r e s e c u r it y u p g r a d e s t h a t w e r e c a r r ie d a t G e n e r a l N c h w e ’s h o u s e .
S o I d i d g o t h e r e a t l e a s t o n e o th e r o c c a s i o n a p a r t fr o m - fr o m

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
d e li v e r i n g t h e v e h ic le a n d a c c o m p a n y F M 11 to d e l iv e r t h e i P a d .

At

le a s t o n e o t h e r ti m e a p a r t fr o m t h e s e t w o o c c a s i o n s .
C h a ir I w i ll t e s ti fy t o t h a t l a t e r w i t h r e g a r d s to t h e u p g r a d e s .
I t is f u r th e r in m y s t a t e m e n t - fu r t h e r d o w n i n m y s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h y d id y o u d e li v e r a n i P a d to h e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m n o t s u r e w h e r e t h a t
in s t r u c t i o n c a m e f r o m .

I t w o u l d h a v e p r o b a b l y c o m e fr o m e i t h e r

General Mdluli or General Lazarus.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I - I c a n c o n fi r m th a t I

a c c o m p a n i e d F M 11 …
CHAIRPERSON: That was …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : To G e n e r a l N c h w e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s d e liv e r in g a n i P a d t o G e n e r a l N c h w e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d id n o t d o t h i s e a r li e r M s W e n tz e l b u t w e s h o u l d y o u s h o u l d d o i t t o a s s is t t h e tr a n s c r i b e r s . O t h e r w is e w h e n w e r e a d t h e
tr a n s c r ip t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e y a r e t a lk in g a b o u t i f y o u l o o k a t
20

w h a t t h e y h a v e w r i t t e n w h e n t h e y r e ly o n w h a t - o n t h e p r o n u n c ia t io n o f
N c h w e . N c h w e i s N - C - H - W - E . Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I f w e c a n ju s t g o b a c k ju s t
s o w e h a v e a ti m e li n e . O n p a g e 4 5 i n p a r a g r a p h 1 8 7 i t s a i d :
“ A l t h o u g h y o u c a n n o t r e c a l l th e e x a c t d a t e o n w h i c h
w e d e liv e r e d th e v e h i c l e t o G e n e r a l N c h w e th e d a te

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
o f 2 A u g u s t 2 0 1 0 a s i n d i c a t e d o n th e p u r c h a s e
o r d e r s u g g e s t t h a t I w o u ld h a v e d e liv e r e d th e
v e h ic l e a r o u n d t h e s a m e ti m e . ”
D i d y o u h a v e c a u s e t o p e r u s e t h is p u r c h a s e o r d e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I am not certain if I did.

I a m n o t s u r e i f t h i s p a r t ic u l a r p u r c h a s e o r d e r w a s s h o w n t o m e b y
C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s Mr N a i d o o i f y o u h a v e a ls o r e g a r d t o 1 8 9
y o u s a y i n th e l a s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 8 9 o n p a g e 4 5 .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : “ I h a v e p e r u s e d a n e N a T I S p r in t o u t
in d i c a t in g

th a t

the

vehicle

was

registered

in

G e n e r a l N c h w e ’s n a m e o n 1 3 A u g u s t 2 0 1 0 . ”
W h e n w o u ld y o u h a v e p e r u s e d th a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

th is

-

these

d o c u m e n ts w o u ld h a v e b e e n s h o w n t o m e b y C o lo n e l R o e lo fs e d u r in g
h is in v e s ti g a t i o n s i n t o C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n fi n a ll y y o u s o m e t i m e s r e f e r t o t h e

v e h ic l e d e l iv e r e d a s a Q 4 a n d s o m e ti m e s a Q 5 .
20

D o y o u r e c a ll w h a t

ty p e o f v e h ic le i t w a s - a n A u d i Q 4 o r a n A u d i Q 5 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

P h y s ic a l ly a n A u d i Q 5 .

O n p a p e r i n t e r m s o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e S y s t e m A - A u d i A 4 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e a t 4 o ’ c l o c k n o w b u t w e c a n s ti ll c o n ti n u e . Is
t h a t fi n e w i th y o u C o lo n e l N a i d o o ?

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t is fi n e C h a ir w e c a n

c o n ti n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . L e t u s - l e t u s c o n t in u e a n d s e e h o w f a r w e a r e
a t h a l f p a s t f o u r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e - w e m i g h t h a v e t o g o t o fi v e b u t le t u s s e e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u l d
you

please

now

deal

w i th

the

v e h i c le

that

was

received

by

M r Ti m m y M a r i m u t h u .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is p a g e 4 7 o f …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 47.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a ffi d a v it .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I w il l - I w il l n o t

d e a l w it h t h is m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A s it i s a ls o h e a r s a y.

It

w a s t o ld t o m e b y F M 0 8 . S o I w il l n o t d e a l w i t h t h i s m a tt e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It r e q u ir e s f u r th e r i n v e s t i g a t io n ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay and the one about General Lazarus at page

1-9-4?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

k e p t a p o o l o f S R v e h ic l e s a t o u r s t o r e - C I s t o r e . N a m e ly a M e r c e d e s
Vi a n o , V W C a r a v e ll e , N i s s a n P a t h f i n d e r a n d a N i s s a n K i n g C a b w h i c h

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
w a s u s e d e x c l u s iv e ly b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d t h o s e c l o s e t o h i m
in c l u d i n g m y s e l f C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

M o s t o f t h e s e v e h ic l e s

w e r e u s e d t o Is l a n d R o c k . L ik e I m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r C h a ir I s l a n d R o c k
w a s n o t a c c e s s i b le w it h a n o r d i n a r y v e h ic le . I t n e e d e d a 4 X 4 t o g e t
there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So these vehicles would

o ft e n b e u s e d f o r t h e s e t r i p s a n d a n y o t h e r tr i p t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
undertook.

S o b a s ic a l ly t h e s e v e h ic l e s w e r e p a r k e d - w h e n i t w a s -

w a s p a r k e d i n th e s t o r e w h e n i t w a s n o t b e e n u ti li s e d b y e i th e r
General Lazarus or those close to him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C o lo n e l N a i d o o d id y o u s a y th a t y o u a ls o
h a d u s e o f th e fo u r w h e e l d r iv e v e h ic le s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s . I d id . C h a ir i s i t is i t p o s s i b l e i f I c a n j u s t t a k e a f iv e m in u t e b r e a k ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o th a t is fi n e . L e t u s - w e l l e a r l ie r o n I s a i d I
t h i n k 1 0 m i n u t e s . I e n d e d u p ta k i n g m o r e . L e t u s r a t h e r c o m e b a c k a t
q u a r t e r fo u r. I s t h a t a lr i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is fi n e C h a ir. T h a n k
you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t to g i v e m o r e t i m e . S o t h a t w h a t e v e r n e e d s to b e

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01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
d o n e c a n b e d o n e . O k a y. W e - w e w i ll a d j o u r n a n d …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d r e tu r n a t q u a r te r p a s t fo u r. W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you back Colonel Naidoo.
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s I a m C h a ir, C h a ir if I

m a y j u s t a h u m b le r e q u e s t C h a ir, I a s k e d f o r a b r e a k e a r l i e r ju s t to
s tr e tc h m y l e g s a n d w a l k a r o u n d , I a m g e t t in g c r a m p s in m y l e g s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o m a y b e w e s h o u l d n o t c o n ti n u e f o r t o o l o n g .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i f I c a n r e q u e s t i f

w e c a n c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w C h a ir, I a m ju s t b a t tl i n g t o s it w it h m y l e g s
c r a m p i n g a n d it is a ls o q u i te w a r m in h e r e w h e r e I a m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. I h a v e a h e a r in g t h a t is s u p p o s e d t o s ta r t
a t n in e to m o r r o w in r e g a r d t o s o m e a p p l i c a ti o n a n d I w a n t e d t o fi n i s h
t h is fi r s t b e fo r e I g e t to t h a t , b u t i f y o u a r e n o l o n g e r c o m f o r t a b l e w e
20

c a n n o t c o n t in u e .

I t is o k a y, w h a t w e w i ll d o is I w il l d e a l w i t h t h e

a p p lic a ti o n to m o r r o w a t n i n e a n d th e n w h e n w e a r e d o n e w i t h th a t th e n
w e w ill n e e d to c o n ti n u e w it h C o l o n e l N a i d o o a n d fi n is h .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a te v e r e ls e w a s p l a n n e d f o r t o m o r r o w w i ll h a v e to
w a i t u n ti l w e h a v e fi n i s h e d w i th C o l o n e l N a i d o o a f t e r th a t a p p l ic a ti o n ,

Page 169 of 170

01 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 174
s o n i n e o ’c lo c k w o u ld b e th a t a p p l ic a ti o n , a s s o o n a s w e h a v e f in is h e d
w i t h th a t a p p l ic a ti o n i t w i ll b e C o l o n e l N a id o o w h i c h I w i ll g o u p t o w h e n
w e ’r e f in is h e d th e n w e w i ll f o ll o w w h a t e v e r e ls e w a s p la n n e d fo r
t o m o r r o w, s o I th i n k y o u w il l n e e d t o – I t h i n k s h a r e i n fo r m a t i o n w it h t h e
e v i d e n c e l e a d e r w h o w a s g o i n g to l e a d w h ic h e v e r w i tn e s s w a s g o i n g to
b e f o r to m o r r o w, b u t I a m s u r e t h e y w il l ta l k t o m e a s w e l l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir.

Chair if I can have just an

in d i c a t io n j u s t fr o m t h e p o i n t o f v i e w o f w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n a s t o w h a t
ti m e y o u w o u l d l ik e t h e w i tn e s s t o b e h e r e t o m o r r o w s o t h a t t h e y c a n
10

m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h a t i t w o u l d b e b e tt e r t h a t – I t h i n k h e s h o u ld
b e h e r e a b o u t q u a r t e r to t e n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a , ja .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

O k a y w e w il l s to p a t t h is s t a g e t h e n to t a k e in t o

a c c o u n t C o lo n e l N a id o o ’s s i tu a t io n a n d th e n w e w il l c o n ti n u e to m o r r o w
a ft e r t h e a p p li c a t io n th a t I w il l h e a r a t n i n e o ’c lo c k .
We adjourn.
20

REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
a c c o m m o d a ti n g my r e q u e s t .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

Page 170 of 170

Thank

you

C h a ir

fo r