C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 2 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 2 5

20

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
P R O C E E D I N G S O N 2 J U LY 2 0 1 9
CHAIRPERSON:

G o o d m o r n i n g Ms N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.

G o o d m o r n in g M r M a r ti n s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . G o o d m o r n i n g Mr C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a n k y o u . I n o p e n in g t h e
le g a l t e a m w is h e s t o p r e s e n t e v i d e n c e t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e le n d i n g o f a
c h a r te r e d J e t A ir w a y s a ir c r a f t a t t h e W a te r k l o o f A ir Fo r c e B a s e o n t h e
3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 3 . W e w i ll e x a m in e th e p r o c e s s e s t h a t w e r e f o ll o w e d a n d
t h o s e t h a t w e r e n o t f o l l o w e d . T h e i n c i d e n t fa ll s w i th in t h e a m b i t o f te r m
o f r e f e r e n c e 1 . 6 . T h e m a in w i t n e s s o r w h o d o e s i m p l ic a te b y w a y o f t h e
r e p o r t t h a t s h e h a s p u t u p to h e r s ta t e m e n t th a t i m p l ic a te – m a k e s
r e fe r e n c e to v a r i o u s p e r s o n s is M s N o n k u l u l e k o S I n d a n e w h o w il l t e s t if y
t o m o r r o w. A s a r e s u l t o f t h a t r e p o r t i n h e r s t a t e m e n t R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s
were issued between the periods the 20th and the – up to the 25th June.

20

I n r e s p e c t o f s o m e o f th e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s w e a r e s h y o f o n e d a y t o
t h e 1 4 d a y s a n d i t r e s p e c t o f [i n d i s t i n c t ] it is ju s t 7 d a y s . M a y b e I n e e d
t o e x p l a i n th e la s t o n e th a t w a s s e n t o n th e 2 5 t h J u n e 2 0 1 9 to t h e
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t . T h e o n l y r e a s o n th a t i t w a s s e n t i t is a – h is
m e n ti o n e d in p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 .1 5 a n d a f te r m u c h d e l ib e r a ti o n s th e le g a l
t e a m a s a p r e c a u ti o n d e c i d e d t h a t m a y b e w e s h o u l d s e n d o u t a n o t ic e .

Page 2 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
S o h e w il l o n l y h a v e 7 d a y s u p to M s S i n d a n e ’s – w h e n s h e t e s t i fi e s
t o m o r r o w.

M a y b e M r C h a ir m a n j u s t to h i g h li g h t w h a t w e h a v e p l a c e d

b e f o r e y o u th is m o r n in g t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w i ll h a v e E x h ib i t F F 1 th a t w i ll
c o n ta in M s S i n d a n e ’s s t a t e m e n t t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e J C P S C lu s te r R e p o r t
t h a t w i ll b e E x h i b i t F F 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y y o u s a id I s h o u l d h a v e w h a t ? F F ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: FF1 – Exhibit FF1.
CHAIRPERSON: I have got FF8 and FF3 and FF6.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h o s e a r e th e o n e s w e g o i n g to r e f e r t o in
10

e v i d e n c e b u t I t h i n k in t h e b o x …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s I j u s t w a n t e d t o h i g h li g h t w h a t w e

h a v e p l a c e d – e v e r y t h i n g th a t y o u w i ll h a v e i n r e s p e c t o f t h is fo r n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t e ls e s h o u ld t h e r e b e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

F F 1 th a t w i l l b e M s S in d a n e ’s s t a t e m e n t

a n d t h e J C P S R e p o r t a n d t h e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w il l a l s o h a v e F F 2 [ a ]
and 2[b].
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y F F2 [ a ] a n d F F2 [ b ].
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d 2 [ b ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n s e e F F 1 I d o n o t s e e b u t w e c a n d e a l w i t h th a t
la t e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h o s e a r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e g o t F F. .

Page 3 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s m a y b e I s h o u ld ju s t m a k e . .
CHAIRPERSON: 4, 5, 6.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: 7. 8 and I see I have got FF3.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

Just to

h i g h l ig h t t h a t F F 2 [ a ] a n d 2 [b ] t h e r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e
P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r a n d F F 3 th is i s t h e d is c ip li n a r y e n q u ir y o f A m b a s s a d o r
10

K o lo a n e F F 4 t h a t w ill b e th e b o a r d o f e n q u ir y fr o m t h e S o u th A fr ic a n
N a t io n a l D e fe n c e F o r c e . F F 5 i t is r e f e r e n c e d t o e m a i ls b u n d le a n d t h e n
F F 6 th a t i s th e – t h e e x h ib i t t h a t w e a r e g o i n g to d e a l w i t h th is m o r n in g
w h ic h h a s th is w i t n e s s ’ s ta t e m e n t M r B e n e d ic t M a r t in s . A n d th e n F F 7 i t
is a – a n a t t o r n e y J o h a n n e s A l b e r t u s G r ie s e l w e w ill d e a l w i t h h is
e v i d e n c e m u c h la t e r i n t h e w e e k .
b u n d l e s d o c u m e n t a ti o n .

A n d t h e n F F 8 is a n a d d i t io n a l

H a v i n g s a id t h a t Mr C h a ir m a n I ju s t w i s h t o

h i g h l ig h t t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n r e s p o n s e s f r o m o n e o r – fr o m t w o o f th e
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s . O n e A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e h e w il l b e a r r i v i n g i n th e
c o u n tr y t o n i g h t a n d h e h a s a s k e d f o r m o r e ti m e b u t w e d i d in d i c a t e t o
20

h i m t h a t h e m u s t b r i n g t h a t a p p lic a ti o n b e fo r e y o u t o m o r r o w m o r n in g
a n d w e h a v e b e e n i n t o u c h w it h h is le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s o t h e r e w il l b e
a n a p p e a r a n c e fr o m t h e m t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . A m b a s s a d o r M a s h e l e o n
t h e o t h e r h a n d t h e r e w a s a s l i g h t e r r o r i n r e s p e c t o f h is n o ti c e b e c a u s e
h is n o ti c e r e fe r r e d t o W il li a m M a s h e l e a n d y e t a n d h i s n a m e J e ffr e y
M a s h e l e a n d i t a l s o r e fe r r e d to h is ti t le in c o r r e c t ly s o w h i ls t w e a r e

Page 4 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
d e a li n g – p le a s e w e a r e t r y i n g r e s o l v e t h o s e i s s u e s th e n h e t h e n – i n
t h e e n d u l ti m a t e ly r e q u e s t e d t h a t h e t o b e g iv e n s o m e m o r e t i m e . A n d
w i t h h i m w e h a d i n a n y e v e n t h a d n o t p l o t t e d h i m f o r t h is w e e k b u t h e
h a s a g r e e d th a t h e w i ll a p p e a r b e f o r e y o u M r C h a ir m a n o n t h e 8 t h w h ic h
is n e x t w e e k M o n d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H a v i n g s a i d t h a t M r C h a ir m a n I w o u l d l ik e
10

t o p r e s e n t t h e w it n e s s M r B e n e d ic t M a r ti n s m a y h e b e s w o r n in ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s

please

swear

him

in

or

a d m i n i s te r

the

a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

B e n e d ic t A n t h o n y D u k e

M a r t in s .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I d o n o t h a v e a n o b j e c t io n .
REGISTRAR:
20

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : I do.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : No help me God.

Page 5 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

M r C h a ir m a n M r M a r ti n s ’

s t a te m e n t a p p e a r s i n E x h ib i t F F6 . 2 b u t …
CHAIRPERSON:

M s N o r m a n I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t is b e c a u s e t h e

m ic r o p h o n e i s f a r fr o m y o u b u t y o u a r e n o t a s a u d i b l e a s y o u n o r m a l ly
a r e t o d a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I h a v e fl u M r C h a ir m a n I t h in k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h m a y b e th a t is t h e r e a s o n .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y b e t h a t i s th e r e a s o n b u t I w i ll tr y a n d
p u t it c l o s e r s li g h t ly. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u . I t a p p e a r s a t 6 . 2 th a n k y o u .

M r M a r ti n s b e f o r e w e s t a r t w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t
y o u w o u l d l ik e t o m a k e t w o c o r r e c t io n s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s c o u l d y o u p le a s e h i g h li g h t t o th e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e th o s e a r e ?
M R B E N E D IC T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

Th e c o r r e c ti o n s a r e o n

page 6.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u ld y o u m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o th e to p

n u m b e r e d p a g e – t h e n u m b e r i n g o n t o p b e c a u s e th a t is t h e p a g i n a te d
ones.

Page 6 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e le t u s s t a r t f i r s t b y e n t e r in g th is fi le .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

J u s t a [ in d i s t in c t ] fi n d i n g i t .

A lr i g h t d o

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e f il e c o n t a i n i n g Mr B e n e d i c t M a r t i n s ’ s ta t e m e n t

w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t F F S ? F F6 ?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

6 2 thank you.

Oh Exhibit 6 yes thank

you. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja FF6.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 2.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So…
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Maybe…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n r e f e r e n c e is m a d e to p a g e s t h e n t h e tr a n s c r ip t
w i ll r e fl e c t th a t th a t is a r e fe r e n c e to a p a g e i n t h a t f il e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

M a y b e b e f o r e w e d o t h a t M r M a r t in s c o u ld y o u p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e – t o
E x h i b i t F F 6 a n d t u r n t o E x h i b i t F F 6 . 2 w h e r e y o u r s ta t e m e n t i s
c o n ta in e d o n t o p t h e r e o f t h e p a g e n u m b e r e d 3 . It w i ll b e T N B M W M 0 3 .
Do you see that/
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s I c a n .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a t i s th e n u m b e r th a t y o u m u s t – f o r th e
p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e c o r d y o u m u s t m a in t a i n .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

W e r e f e r to a c c o r d i n g t o t h o s e n u m b e r s .

N o w i s – a r e t h o s e – is t h a t y o u r s t a t e m e n t ? D i d y o u i d e n ti f y it a s y o u r
s t a te m e n t ?

Page 7 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

I a m r e f e r r i n g to m y

s t a te m e n t M a ’a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s i f y o u t u r n to p a g e 9 – 0 9 o n t o p o f

the same Exhibit FF6.2
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t y o u r s ig n a t u r e t h a t a p p e a r s o n t h a t
page?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I t is .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d y o u d e p o s e d to th a t o n t h e 2 6 t h
10

June 2019, is that correct?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n – a n d t h a t th e

c o n te n ts o f t h i s s ta t e m e n t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

A n d th e n y o u h a d j u s t

ty p o g r a p h ic a l e r r o r t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e a n d t h a t w o u ld b e a t p a g e
0 8 – T N B M W M 0 8 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s w h a t i s t h e c o r r e c ti o n ?
20

MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:

With regard to paragraph

1 9 . 3 th e s e c o n d li n e r e a d s : “L e n a s i a ”
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : It should be Lanseria.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Lanseria.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh thank you.

Page 8 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n d o n t h e t h ir d li n e th e
fir s t w o r d r e a d s “r u n a w a y ” it s h o u l d b e r u n w a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Runway yes.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS: And then the word Lenasia
s h o u l d b e a ls o r e p la c e d b y L a n s e r ia .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e n a s i a a p p e a r s in 1 9 . 3 b u t d o e s it a ls o a p p e a r

e ls e w h e r e o r o n ly th e r e ? T h e o n e th a t s h o u l d b e r e p l a c e d b y L a n s e r i a ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Lanseria.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I s i t a p p e a r i n g o n ly 1 9 . 3 w h e r e w e s h o u l d m a k e a

c o r r e c t io n ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Fr o m m y r e a d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:

I o n ly n o tic e d i t o n t h a t

p a r t ic u l a r p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n .

Thank you.

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . W e m o v e f o r t h o s e c o r r e c t io n s a s a s k e d f o r
b y th e w i t n e s s . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja well …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r w e s a id s u p p l e m e n t a r y …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a t e m e n t .

Page 9 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a t e m e n t w il l h a v e t o b e m a d e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

W h e n h e g iv e s h is

e v i d e n c e h e w il l ta lk a b o u t L a n s e r i a i n s t e a d o f L e n a s ia .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t w i ll n e e d t o b e d o n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To b e m a d e . T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m a k e th o s e – t o e ff e c t th o s e c o r r e c t io n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a r t in s I t h i n k y o u h a v e p ic k e d u p a n o t h e r e r r o r ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s I …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Do you have another – yes.
M R B E N E D I C T A N TH O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

I h a v e p ic k e d u p s o m e

o th e r e r r o r s r a th e r o n p a g e T 9 – T N r a t h e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : BMWM05.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay I think Ms Norman you have confused Mr

M a r t in s b y …
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B y r e a d i n g th e T M
C H A I R P E R S O N : B y r e a d in g th e l e t t e r s w h e n y o u r e fe r t o t h e p a g e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

M r M a r ti n s i t w i ll b e e n o u g h if y o u j u s t s a y p a g e 8 ,

page 9.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : O k a y.

Page 10 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n ig n o r in g th e l e t te r s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Thank you Judge.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e 0 t h e n w e w il l k n o w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t s h e is t h e o n e w h o c a u s e d t h e p r o b l e m s .

Ye s

what page?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : P a g e 5 t h e fir s t li n e p o i n t
6.

T h e r e s h o u l d b e c a p i t a l l e t te r s S o u t h A f r i c a n Av i a ti o n A u t h o r i ty.

Av i a ti o n c a p i ta l A , A u t h o r i t y c a p it a l A .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:

A n d th e n w i t h r e g a r d t o

p a r a g r a p h 7 t h e s e c o n d l i n e t h e s a m e m is t a k e h a s o c c u r r e d t h e r e .
A ir p o r t s C o m p a n y. A ir p o r ts s h o u ld b e c a p i t a l A , c o m p a n y c a p it a l C .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

M R B E N E D I C T A N TH O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S :

A n d th e n e x t p h r a s e o f

t h a t s e n t e n c e t h e A ir Tr a ffi c N a v i g a t io n S e r v ic e s .

A i r s h o u ld a ls o b e

c a p i t a l A , Tr a ffic c a p i t a l T, N a v i g a t io n c a p i t a l N , S e r v i c e s c a p i ta l S .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T IN S : A n d t h e l a s t tw o w o r d s o f
t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h R e g u l a ti o n C o m m it t e e s , c a p i ta l R , c a p i t a l C .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t t h a n k y o u .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Thank you.

Page 11 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t a l l?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is a l l.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

A p a r t fr o m t h o s e y o u a r e

h a p p y w i t h t h e s ta t e m e n t?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s I a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . M r M a r ti n s c o u l d y o u ju s t
b r i e fl y t e l l th e C h a i r p e r s o n a b o u t y o u r e d u c a ti o n a l q u a l i fic a ti o n s
please?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:
10

I h o l d a B A d e g r e e fr o m

t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f U N I S A a n d I h o l d a L L B d e g r e e fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f
K w a Z u l u N a t a l a t t h e t i m e I o b t a i n e d t h e d e g r e e i t w a s t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f
Natal.

A n d I a ls o h o ld a M a s t e r s i n I n t e r n a t i o n a l L a w f r o m t h e

U n iv e r s i ty o f C a p e To w n a n d I a ls o h o l d a P o s t G r a d u a t e D e g r e e i n
M a n a g e m e n t L a w a n d Ec o n o m i c s fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f C a p e To w n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a n k y o u Mr M a r t i n s y o u
u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a p p e a r a n c e t o d a y r e l a te s t o t h e i n v i ta t io n t h a t w a s
m a d e t o y o u b y t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r s a n d t h e l i s t o f q u e s ti o n s t h a t y o u w e r e
20

f u r n is h e d d e a li n g w it h w h a t i s k n o w n a s t h e W a te r k l o o f i n c i d e n t ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : I do.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d y o u ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
w h a t w a s y o u r p o s i t io n d u r in g M a y – A p r il / M a y o f 2 0 1 3 w i th i n
government?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:

Page 12 of 103

D u r i n g th a t p e r io d I w a s

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
t h e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

And when were you appointed as a

M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t?
M R B E N E D I C T A N TH O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S :

I w a s a p p o i n t e d a s th e

M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t o n t h e 11 t h J u n e 2 0 1 2 a n d h e ld th a t p o s i t io n u n ti l
the 9th June 2013.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d w h a t w e r e y o u r r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s
a s th e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T IN S : D u r i n g M a y 2 0 1 3 I c a r r i e d
10

o u t m y r e s p o n s i b ili t ie s o f o v e r s e e in g t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t .
T h o s e w e r e i n t e r a l i a t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r N a ti o n a l a n d In t e r n a t i o n a l
A ir p o r t s , N a t i o n a l R o a d s , R a il w a y s

and

Marine

Tr a n s p o r t .

The

r e s p o n s i b i li ty fo r th e e ff e c ti v e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f tr a n s p o r t le g is l a ti o n ,
p o li c i e s a n d p r o g r a m m e s t h a t a r e a i m e d a t i m p r o v in g t h e li v e s o f S o u t h
A fr ic a n s a n d t o s ti m u l a te s o c i a l a n d e c o n o m i c d e v e lo p m e n t .

The

D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a ls o h a s a f u r t h e r m a n d a te t o o v e r s e e t h e
i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f p r o j e c ts b y t h e e n t i ti e s u n d e r i ts r e m i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:
20

A n d t h o s e a r e t w e lv e

e n t i ti e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d n o w le t u s t a l k a b o u t t h e r o l e o f
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t in s o f a r a s a ir c r a f ts w i s h i n g o r e v e n th e
lo c a l a ir c r a f ts l a n d in g a t o u r v a r i o u s a ir p o r t s .

W h a t is t h e r o l e o f

tr a n s p o r t ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTIN S:

Page 13 of 103

In r e g a r d t o th e q u e s t i o n

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
t h a t y o u p o s e d M a ’ a m t h e N a t io n a l Av i a ti o n S e c u r i t y Pr o g r a m d e a l s
w i t h m a t t e r s o f c i v i l a v ia t io n , s e c u r i ty a n d w i th l ia is o n w i t h g o v e r n m e n t
d e p a r t m e n ts c o n c e r n i n g m a t t e r s o f c iv il s e c u r i ty, c iv il a v i a t i o n s e c u r i ty.
O n e o f t h e k e y c o m p o n e n t s o f a v i a ti o n s e c u r i t y i s a N a ti o n a l Av i a ti o n
S e c u r i ty P r o g r a m . T h e C iv il Av ia t io n A c t a n d t h e A s s o c i a t e d R e g u l a t i o n
t o g e th e r w i t h th is p r o g r a m e s ta b l is h e d th e b a s ic le g a l a u t h o r i ty f o r th e
i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f C iv il Av i a ti o n
Procedures.

S e c u r it y P o li c i e s , Pr a c ti c e s a n d

Th e S o u t h A fr ic a n Av ia t io n A u t h o r i ty b e a r s r e s p o n s i b ili t y

f o r th e s a f e ty a n d s e c u r i ty o f th e e n t ir e n e tw o r k o f A ir p o r t s i n t e r m s o f
10

le g i s l a ti o n a n d

in t e r n a t io n a l c o n v e n ti o n s o n

s a f e ty

and

s e c u r i ty.

S h a r i n g t h i s r e s p o n s i b i li ty a r e t h e C iv il A v ia t io n ’s A u t h o r it i e s o f S o u t h
A fr ic a n a m e ly t h e A ir p o r ts C o m p a n y o f S o u th A f r ic a , th e A ir Tr a ffi c
N a v i g a t i o n S e r v i c e s a n d t h e R e g u la t io n C o m m i t t e e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t
m a k e s d e c is io n s a n d a p p r o v a l s o n Av i a t io n in c o n s u l ta t io n w i t h t h e
r e l e v a n t a g e n c i e s th a t a p a r ti c u la r m a t t e r r e q u ir e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s le t u s j u s t d e a l w i t h t h a t . Yo u h a v e

m e n ti o n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 7 A C S A a n d AT N S I a m j u s t g iv in g a c r o n y m s to
20

t h o s e . D o t h o s e a g e n c ie s r e p o r t to t h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h o s e a g e n c ie s fa ll u n d e r
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O f tr a n s p o r t .

A n d w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t

d e c is i o n s t h a t y o u a s a M in is t e r w o u l d h a v e t o m a k e g i v e a p p r o v a l s o n
a v i a ti o n ’s w h a t s o r t o f – c a n y o u j u s t g iv e u s e x a m p l e s ? W h a t s o r t o f

Page 14 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
m a t t e r s w o u ld r e q u ir e y o u r a p p r o v a l?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:

T h e a g e n c ie s c o n c e r n e d

h a v e g o t t h e d a y to d a y r e s p o n s ib il i ty fo r c a r r y i n g o u t t h e ir b r i e f u n d e r
r e l e v a n t r e g u l a ti o n s a n d l a w s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : B u t w h e r e th e y r e q u ir e th e
a s s is t a n c e , g u id a n c e o f t h e M i n is t e r t h e y w o u l d c o n s u l t t h e M i n is t e r
a n d s a y in r e g a r d t o th is p a r t ic u l a r m a t t e r h e r e i s t h is i n te r n a ti o n a l
c o n v e n t io n t h a t w e h a v e s ig n e d a n d w h e n in t e r n a t io n a l c o n v e n ti o n s a r e
10

s ig n e d t h e y h a v e t o b e p r o c e s s e d a n d r a t i f ie d i n P a r li a m e n t. S o t h a t is
a n e x a m p le o f w h e r e t h e y w o u ld b e li a i s o n a n d c o n s u l t a t i o n in r e g a r d t o
a m a tt e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w c o m in g b a c k t h e n to t h e is s u e
t h e W a te r k l o o f l a n d in g w h e n f o r th e fi r s t ti m e d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e
t h a t t h e G u p ta f a m ily w is h e d t o h a v e th e ir a ir c r a f t l a n d a t W a t e r k lo o f
A ir F o r c e B a s e ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS: No-one approached me on
t h e Wa t e r k l o o f la n d i n g is s u e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No, no I see you are reading from …

20

MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s p l e a s e d o n o t r e a d I w i ll d i r e c t y o u t o
t h e r e l e v a n t p a r a g r a p h s . B u t th e a n s w e r t h a t I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o – t h e
q u e s t io n I p u t t o y o u is w h e n f o r t h e fir s t t i m e d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e
t h a t th e G u p t a fa m i ly w i s h e d t o h a v e t h e ir a ir c r a f t la n d W a te r k l o o f?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h e fir s t t i m e I w a s a w a r e

Page 15 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
in r e g a r d t o t h e W a t e r k lo o f la n d i n g w a s w h e n a n o ff ic i a l o f th e A ir
Tr a ff ic N a v i g a t io n S e r v ic e s c a l le d m e t o s a y t h a t t h e p l a n e h a d e n t e r e d
S o u th A fr ic a n A ir s p a c e w i t h o u t a r e q u is i te p e r m it .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

B u t in r e g a r d to th e

la n d i n g o f th e G u p ta p l a n e a t W a te r k l o o f A ir B a s e I r e a d i t in t h e
newspapers.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:
10

I w a s n o t fo r m a l ly

in f o r m e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n w h o i s t h i s o ff ic i a l t h a t

in f o r m e d y o u a b o u t t h e l a n d in g o f t h a t a i r c r a f t fr o m AT N S ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I d o n o t r e c a l l th e n a m e o f
t h e o ff ic i a l b u t fr o m m y e n g a g e m e n t t h e t e l e p h o n e c a l l th a t I h a d I
a s s u m e d th a t i t w a s a b l a c k p e r s o n t h a t c a ll e d m e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

A n d t h e n o t h e r th a n t h a t o c c a s i o n

d i d y o u h a v e o c c a s i o n t o d e a l w i t h a n y m e m b e r o f th e G u p t a f a m ily
a r o u n d th e a i r c r a ft i ts e l f w h e t h e r i t w a s a b o u t t h e l a n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t
o r a n y o t h e r m a t t e r th a t r e l a te d to t h e a i r c r a ft i ts e l f ?
20

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I n r e g a r d t o t h e a ir c r a f t I
have got it in my statement here.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

I t h in k s o m e t i m e i n

F e b r u a r y a n a p p r o a c h w a s m a d e b y a m e m b e r o r m e m b e r s o f th e G u p t a
f a m ily to th e A ir p o r ts C o m p a n y o f S o u t h A f r ic a i n r e g a r d t o s e e k in g

Page 16 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
p e r m is s io n t o l a n d a t O R Ta m b o I n t e r n a t i o n a l A ir p o r t .

As a r e s u l t o f

t h a t th e a c ti n g C E O o f A C S A M r B o n g a n i M a s e k o c o n t a c t e d m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T IN S :

A n d in f o r m e d m e a b o u t

t h is . M y d i s c u s s io n w i t h h i m w a s t h a t t h e p e r m is s io n r e q u e s t t h a t t h e y
s o u g h t w a s u p o n t h e a ir c r a f t l a n d in g a t O R Ta m b o A ir p o r t .

When the

g u e s t s d i s e m b a r k e d f r o m t h e p l a n e th e r e s h o u l d b e a r e c e p ti o n , a
w e lc o m i n g r e c e p t i o n a n d M r M a s e k o e x p l a i n e d t o m e t h a t i n th e fir s t
in s t a n c e w h e r e t h e p la n e l a n d s o n t h e ta r m a c s i d e t h a t i s th e
10

ju r is d i c t i o n o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s a n d t h a t i t w o u ld b e
u n li k e ly f o r a n y b o d y t o g iv e p e r m i s s i o n fo r a n a ir c r a f t t o l a n d th e r e a n d
f o r a w e l c o m i n g r e c e p ti o n to t a k e p l a c e t h e r e .
ti m e t h a t I l e a r n t a b o u t t h is .

S o th a t w a s t h e fir s t

T h e n I a t te n d e d a m e e ti n g w h i c h is

r e fe r r e d t o i n m y s t a te m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

A t O R Ta m b o A i r p o r t

w h e r e M r G u p t a w a s p r e s e n t , M r To n y G u p t a w a s p r e s e n t a n d Mr –
A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : K o lo a n e y e s .
20

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e w a s
p r e s e n t a n d M r M a s e k o a n d m y s e l f.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n d a t t h a t m e e t in g …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m s o s o r r y t o i n t e r r u p t y o u M r M a r ti n s
ju s t b e f o r e y o u g e t t o t h e m e e ti n g I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e c l e a r

Page 17 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
r e q u e s t – t h e r e q u e s t t h a t w a s m a d e a t th e p o i n t w h e n M r M a s e k o
in f o r m e d y o u w h a t w a s i t th a t th e G u p t a fa m il y a c t u a l ly r e q u e s t e d ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h e y r e q u e s t e d t h a t th e ir
p l a n e u p o n la n d i n g a t O R Ta m b o th a t t h e y s h o u l d b e g iv e n p e r m is s i o n
t o h a v e t h is r e c e p t io n . T h is w e lc o m i n g r e c e p t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e y w a n te d t o h a v e i t w h e r e ? W h e r e w a s
t h is r e c e p ti o n g o i n g t o b e h e l d ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : As I s a i d e a r li e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

MR

B E N E D IC T A N T H O N Y D U K E

M A R T I N S:

Upon

their

guests

d is e m b a r k i n g fr o m t h e a ir p o r t – f o r t h e a e r o p l a n e r a th e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T IN S : T h e y w a n t e d t h e r e c e p t io n
to take place there.
CHAIRPERSON: On the tarmac?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : On the tarmac.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR

BENEDICT

ANTHONY

DUKE

M A R TI N S :

That

was

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A lr ig h t .

Then = then you had then a

m e e ti n g y o u s a y i t w a s a t – y o u h e ld a m e e ti n g w i t h M r M a s e k o a n d
where was this meeting held?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:

T h e m e e t in g w a s h e ld a t

O R Ta m b o A ir p o r t a t t h e i f I r e c a ll t h e – t h e r e is a h o t e l w h e n y o u j u s t
w a lk a c r o s s t h e r o a d f r o m t h e a ir p o r t.

Page 18 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I think…
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I t h in k i t is t h e I n te r n a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e I n t e r n a ti o n a l H o te l.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n te r c o n ti n e n t a l ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : In t e r c o n ti n e n t a l H o t e l.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h e m e e t in g t o o k p l a c e –
t h a t i s w h e r e t h e m e e t in g to o k p l a c e .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

So I am sorry when I interrupted

y o u , y o u w e r e m e n ti o n i n g t h e p e r s o n s t h a t w e r e a t t h a t m e e t in g w h o
were they?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I t w a s M r To n y G u p t a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N TH O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:
K o lo a n e .

It was Ambassador

I t w a s th e A c ti n g C E O o f A C S A M r B o n g a n i M a s e k o a n d

myself.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a t t h e m e e t in g ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A t t h e m e e ti n g t h e r e q u e s t
20

w a s m a d e f o r t h is w e lc o m in g c e r e m o n y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

A n d a t t h e m e e t in g I

e x p l a i n e d t h a t o n t h e ta r m a c s id e w a s th e j u r i s d ic t io n o f H o m e A ff a ir s
a n d t h a t i n m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g O R Ta m b o A ir p o r t b e in g s u c h a b u s y
a ir p o r t i t w o u l d n o t b e p o s s i b l e a n d i t w o u l d n o t b e f e a s i b l e t o h a v e a

Page 19 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
w e lc o m i n g c e r e m o n y a n d I e v e n m e n ti o n e d t h a t I w a s n o t a w a r e o f
a n y b o d y e ls e h a v i n g h a d s u c h a n o p p o r t u n it y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D IC T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S :

N o r m a ll y M i n i s t e r s w h e n

t h e y g e t o u t t h e p la n e e v e n t h e y – t h e y a r e j u s t e s c o r t e d i m m e d i a te ly
fr o m w h e r e th e y d i s e m b a r k e d b y c a r s t o w h e r e v e r t h e y a r e g o i n g .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

A n d t h e n w h a t w a s th e n y o u r

d e c is i o n a t t h a t m e e t in g ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h e d e c is io n w a s th a t w e
10

c o u l d n o t g r a n t th a t p e r m i s s i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

Fir s t a n d f o r e m o s t

t e c h n ic a l ly I d i d n o t h a v e t h e a u t h o r i t y t o d o s o b e c a u s e o n th e p l a n e
la n d i n g s i t e o n t h e t a r m a c s i t e th e a u t h o r i t y g o v e r n i n g t h e r e i s t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s w h e r e t h e y h a v e t o s ta m p p a s s p o r ts a n d
p r o c e s s in d i v i d u a ls a r r i v i n g i n t o t h e c o u n t r y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . A n d t h e n a f te r y o u to l d th e m w h a t

w a s Mr G u p ta ’s – To n y G u p t a ’s r e a c ti o n ?
M R B E N E D IC T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : H is r e a c t io n w a s th a t a r e
20

y o u r e a l ly d e n y i n g th e g u e s ts o f – th e g u e s ts o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e
fr i e n d s o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t th e o p p o r t u n i ty t o h a v e t h i s w e lc o m in g
c e r e m o n y th e r e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR

BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE

M A R T I N S:

And

we

said

that

ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h o s e g u e s ts o r fr ie n d s i t is p e r m is s io n c a n n o t b e

Page 20 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
granted.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n is t h a t h o w y o u p a r t e d ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s t h a t is h o w w e p a r t e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h o h e w a s r e f e r r in g
t o a s t h e fr ie n d s o f t h e Pr e s id e n t?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:

J u d g e i n h i s m o tiv a ti o n

t h a t i s c o v e r e d i n o n e o f t h e p a r a g r a p h s i n m y s t a te m e n t w h ic h w a s
a ls o c o v e r e d in t h e J P – J C P S S R e p o r t .
10

M r G u p ta i n m o ti v a t in g w a s

g iv i n g t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t f o u r o r fiv e M in is te r s fr o m I n d i a w o u l d b e
a r r iv i n g i n t h a t p la n e a n d s o m e o f t h o s e M i n i s t e r s a n d p e o p l e i n th e
p l a n e w e r e fr ie n d s o f P r e s i d e n t J Z Z u m a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

O k a y.

Thank

you. And

that was

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s a t t h a t m e e ti n g
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ja o k a y
MR

BENEDICT

ANTHONY

DUKE

M A R TI N S :

That

was

the

u n d e r s t a n d in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay thank you.
20

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . A n d
t h e n y o u w e r e a s k e d b y th e i n v e s ti g a to r s s o m e t h i n g y o u h a v e a ls o p u t
in y o u r s t a t e m e n t a t p a g e 5 if a n y o n e a p p r o a c h e d y o u o n th e
Wa t e r k l o o f is s u e a n d y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h e r e q u e s t a n d t h e f u l l r e a s o n s
f o r th o s e – a n d t h e f u l l – I t h in k a n d g iv e – fu r n is h fu ll r e a s o n s I th i n k
t h a t is w h a t is m e a n t i n t h e r e . A n d t h e n y o u r r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t n o - o n e

Page 21 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
a p p r o a c h e d y o u o n th e Wa t e r k lo o f i s s u e .
M R B E N E D I C T A N TH O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S:

T h a t is c o r r e c t n o - o n e

a p p r o a c h e d m e i n r e g a r d t o t h e W a te r k l o o f i s s u e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

N o w c o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l th e n th e

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h e n y o u h a d m e t w i th h i m a n d y o u t o l d h i m t h a t t h i s
c a n n o t b e d o n e t h a t is t h e c e r e m o n y a t – o n t h e t a r m a c a s th e y la n d .
W h e n e ls e d i d y o u h a v e t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n e i t h e r w i t h M r G u p ta h i m s e l f ,
To n y G u p t a h i m s e l f o r w i th e i t h e r Mr M a s e k o o r a n y o th e r p e r s o n ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N TH O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A s y o u w o u l d s e e fr o m t h e
10

s t a te m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS:

A f te r t h e e n g a g e m e n t a t

O R Ta m b o A ir p o r t t h e r e w e r e p h o n e c a ll s f r o m h i m w h e r e h e w a s a s k i n g
if th is r e a ll y c o u ld n o t b e a c c o m m o d a te d a n d t h e n fr o m m y s e l f I t o l d
h i m t h a t t h e d e c is i o n ta k e n a t th e a ir p o r t s t o o d a n d t h e n s u b s e q u e n t t o
t h a t in h is e n g a g e m e n t w i t h M r M a s e k o th is is w h e r e M r M a s e k o
a d v is e d t h a t i t m i g h t b e p o s s i b l e f o r t h e m t o s e e k p e r m is s io n t o l a n d a t
P il a n e s b e r g a n d a t L a n s e r i a A ir p o r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h e n y o u s a y h i m w h o i s t h a t h i m ?
20

M R B E N E D I C T A N TH O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S :

I am saying that it was

To n y G u p t a th a t w a s p u r s u in g th is m a t t e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N TH O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : S o t h i s i s t h e a d v ic e th a t
h e g o t fr o m M r M a s e k o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M r M a s e k o . Ye s .

Page 22 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a t t h is m e e t i n g a t t h e a ir p o r t t h e w h o le r e q u e s t

w a s n o t a b o u t t h e a i r c r a ft la n d i n g a t O R b e c a u s e t h a t is n o r m a l .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Standard.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s a b o u t h o l d i n g th is r e c e p t io n / c e r e m o n y t h a t

t h e y w a n t e d o n th e ta r m a c t h a t i s w h a t t h e r e q u e s t w a s d ir e c te d a t ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t J u d g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
A n d t h e n w a s – w h e r e y o u m e e ti n g M r To n y G u p ta f o r t h e fir s t ti m e /
10

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe – sorry Ms Norma n.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Did you ever get to understand why it was so

i m p o r t a n t th a t t h e g u e s ts w h o a r r i v e d w o u ld h a v e t o b e g iv e n a
r e c e p t i o n o n t h e t a r m a c a s th e y d i s e m b a r k e d f r o m t h e p la n e a s
o p p o s e d t o b e i n g r e c e iv e d in s i d e t h e a ir p o r t’s b u il d i n g o r a f t e r c o m in g
o u t o f t h e – o r e v e n a ft e r c o m i n g o u t o f th e a ir p o r t’s b u i l d i n g ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I s u r m is e th a t th e i n t e n t io n
t o h a v e th e w e l c o m i n g r e c e p t i o n o n t h e t a r m a c w o u l d p r o j e c t t h e
i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e v is i to r s a r r i v i n g a n d t h e p o w e r a n d i n fl u e n c e o f t h e
20

in d i v i d u a ls r e c e i v i n g t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Receiving them.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .
M a y b e y o u c o u l d j u s t t e l l u s w h e t h e r i n y o u r e x p e r ie n c e w h e n v is i to r s

Page 23 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
le t u s s a y M i n i s te r s w h e n th e y a r r iv e , y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s a id th a t t h e y
g e t e s c o r te d f r o m t h e t a r m a c a n d h a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d o f a n i n c i d e n t
w h e r e th e r e w o u l d b e s o m e f o r m o f c e l e b r a ti o n o n t h e t a r m a c ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

A s I h a v e s a id e a r li e r I

have never ever heard of such.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n b e fo r e t h is m e e ti n g a t
O R Ta m b o w h e r e M r To n y G u p t a w a s – w a s p r e s e n t .

Have you – had

y o u m e t w i t h h i m b e f o r e o r w e r e y o u m e e ti n g h i m f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e a t
t h a t m e e ti n g ?
10

MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

No.

I t w a s n o t t h e f ir s t

ti m e t h a t I m e t Mr To n y G u p t a t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : I remember having several
in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h m e m b e r o f th e G u p t a fa m i ly …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n d I c a n a r t ic u l a te …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Some of them.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s c o u l d y o u p l e a s e d o t h a t?
20

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : D u r in g 2 0 11 w h e n I w a s a
D e p u ty M i n is t e r o f P u b li c E n te r p r is e s I i n t e r a c te d w i t h M r A t u l a n d
To n y G u p t a a t t h e S A B C T N A B u s in e s s B r e a k fa s t w h i c h w a s a r r a n g e d
b y th e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s .
A g a i n s h o r tly a f t e r m y 11 J u n e 2 0 1 2 a p p o in t m e n t a s th e
M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t I h a d s e v e r a l p h o n e c a l ls fr o m Mr To n y G u p t a w h o

Page 24 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
averred that PRASA - who averred that the PRASA tender process to
r e q u ir e l o c o m o ti v e s h a d n o t b e e n o p e n a n d tr a n s p a r e n t a n d t h a t h e
r e s e r v e d h is r i g h t t o c h a l le n g e t h e p r o c e s s , to c h a l le n g e P R A S A a n d t o
c h a l le n g e t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t in c o u r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t w a s t h a t a l l a b o u t? H a d h e t e n d e r e d
f o r t h a t t e n d e r ? W h a t – w h a t w a s th a t a ll a b o u t?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

I h a d j u s t b e e n s h o r t ly

a p p o i n t e d t o t h e Mi n is te r a s a M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n d th e n a c o u p l e o f d a y s
t h e r e a f te r w a s w h e n h e c a ll e d t o q u e s ti o n th e t e n d e r p r o c e s s .

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t h e h a d te n d e r e d o r h e w a n te d t o te n d e r a t a
la t e r s t a g e a n d my e x p l a n a ti o n t o h i m w a s th a t a f te r h a v i n g a r r i v e d a t
t h e d e p a r t m e n t I h a d s e v e r a l b r ie f in g s fr o m t h e 1 2 e n t i ti e s t h a t r e p o r t
t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d in g fr o m t h e b r i e fi n g s
t h a t I h a d r e c e i v e d fr o m P R A S A w h e n m e n t io n w a s m a d e a b o u t t h is
p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r.
M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th a t t h e t e n d e r h a d r u n i ts c o u r s e o r
b y t h e ti m e I w a s a p p o i n t e d i t w a s a b o u t t o r u n it s c o u r s e t o f in a l i ty.
20

S o I e x p l a i n e d t h is t o M r G u p t a b u t h e w a s i n s is ti n g t h a t i n h is
u n d e r s t a n d in g th e r e w e r e ir r e g u la r i ti e s i n t h e m a n n e r w h ic h t h e t e n d e r
process had unfolded.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

S o my r e s p o n s e t o h i m

w a s t h a t I h a d o n ly r e c e n t ly b e e n a p p o i n t e d a s t h e M i n is t e r o f

Page 25 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
Tr a n s p o r t a n d I w a s n o t a w a r e o f a ll t h e fa c t s c o n c e r n in g th e m a t te r
t h a t m y l i m i te d – b u t t h a t m y li m i t e d u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e m a t te r w a s
t h a t th e t e n d e r p r o c e s s h a d r u n it s c o u r s e o r th a t i t w a s a b o u t to e n d .
M y r e s p o n s e t o h i m f u r t h e r w a s t h a t h e w a s w i t h i n h i s r i g h t to
t a k e w h a t e v e r le g a l a c ti o n th a t h e f e l t n e c e s s a r y. I h o w e v e r s u g g e s t e d
t h a t i t m ig h t b e a d v is a b l e fo r h i m f ir s t t o s e e k c la r i ty a n d o b t a i n
a n s w e r s t o th e q u e s ti o n s t h a t h e p o s e d fr o m t h e C E O o f P R A S A
M r L u c k y M o n t a n a w h o w o u ld b e a b l e t o e x p l a i n t h e d e t a i ls o f th e
t e n d e r p r o c e s s b e f o r e h e Mr To n y G u p t a t a k e s t h e m a t t e r to c o u r t .
I t w a s a s a r e s u l t o f s e e k in g t o m e d i a te t h is m a t t e r t h a t I

10

o r g a n i s e d a m e e t in g b e t w e e n M r To n y G u p ta a n d M r L u c k y M o n t a n a . I
s a w n o t h i n g u n t o w a r d i n a r r a n g in g t h i s m e e ti n g a s i t s a i m w a s t o c l a r if y
a n d g iv e a n s w e r s t o t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t M r G u p t a h a d p o s e d . I d id n o t
a t a n y s ta g e a s k M r M o n t a n a t o o u n d u ly, ir r e g u la r ly o r il l e g a l ly t o a s s is t
Mr Gupta.
T h e r e w a s n o u n l a w f u l a n d /o r m a l ic io u s i n te n t o n m y p a r t i n
f a c i li t a ti n g t h e m e e ti n g .

I t h i n k it is i m p o r ta n t m a ’ a m t o b e a r i n m i n d

t h a t a n d t o r e m e m b e r th a t a t t h e t i m e t h e m e e ti n g o c c u r r e d i n 2 0 1 2 t h e
b e n e fi t o f h i n d s ig h t t h a t w e h a v e t o d a y d i d n o t e x is t . T h e c o n te x t a n d
20

t h e p u b l ic i m a g e o f m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p t a f a mi ly w a s n o t w h a t it i s
t o d a y in 2 0 1 9 n a m e ly a f a m il y p e r c e i v e d a n d p r o j e c t e d a s t h e
p e r s o n i fic a ti o n o f c o r r u p ti o n i n ( i n d is ti n c t ) .
In 2012 the Gupta brothers were not persona non grata as
t h e y a r e p r o j e c te d t o b e to d a y. A l l I k n o w t h e n w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e a n
I n d ia n f a m ily o r i g i n a ll y fr o m I n d i a w h o o w n e d a m e d i u m s iz e d B E E

Page 26 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
company of moderate means named Sahara.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t to n o t e
f u r th e r i s t h a t t h e m e e ti n g t h a t I f a c i li t a t e d d i d n o t r e s u l t i n Mr G u p ta
o b t a i n in g th e l o c o m o t iv e s t e n d e r.

Mr T G u p t a w a s a d v is e d t h a t t h e

tender process could not be reversed.

M r G u p t a i n d ic a te d t h a t h e

w o u ld c o n s id e r h i s o p ti o n o f t a k i n g t h e te n d e r p r o c e s s o n r e v ie w. T h a t
b r o u g h t t h e – t h e d i s c u s s io n a n d m e e ti n g t o a n e n d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

That I had with him and

Mr Montana.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y.

f a c i li t a ti o n o f t h a t m e e ti n g .

S o le t u s ju s t g o b a c k to t h a t

W h e n h e f ir s t a p p r o a c h e d y o u a b o u t t h is

t e n d e r fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e h e h a d n o t t e n d e r e d ?

Had he tendered at

t h a t p o in t ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

My understanding at that

point was he had not tendered and he wanted to tender …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
20

And my response to him

w a s t h a t t h is p r o c e s s h a d r u n it s c o u r s e . S o th e r e i s n o w a y t h a t y o u
c a n t e n d e r a t t h is l a te s t a g e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Ye s

and

then

I a m j u s t tr y in g

to

u n d e r s t a n d t h e n w h y w o u l d t h e r e b e a n e e d th e n to f a c il it a t e a
m e e ti n g ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : N o . A s I e x p l a i n e d e a r li e r

Page 27 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
o n h e w a s a s k i n g q u e s ti o n i n r e g a r d t o h o w th e t e n d e r w a s r u n , w h e r e
it w a s a d v e r tis e d , w h a t w a s n o t d o n e a n d I s a i d t o h i m t h a t a ft e r h a v i n g
b e e n a f e w d a y s in t h i s p o s t I c a n n o t a n s w e r th o s e q u e s t io n s .
The person who was relevant in the tender process would be
a b l e to g iv e y o u a n s w e r s t o th a t w ill b e M r L u c k y M o n t a n a a n d t h e
is s u e t h a t h e h a d a ls o r a is e d w a s t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o t a k e t h e t e n d e r
process on review and he was going to take PRASA and the department
to court.
I n o r d e r t o o b v ia t e t h a t I th o u g h t t h a t i t w o u ld b e e a s i e r fo r
10

h i m t o h a v e a d ir e c t i n te r a c t i o n w it h s o m e b o d y w h o h a d i n t e r m i t
k n o w l e d g e o f th e t e n d e r p r o c e s s w h e r e h e c o u l d p o s e h is q u e s ti o n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . L e t u s j u s t t a lk a b o u t t h a t b e c a u s e

h e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n th a t y o u w e r e n o t i n t h e t e n d e r i n g p r o c e s s a s a
M i n is t e r ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e c a u s e y o u h a d ju s t b e e n a p p o in t e d a s a
M i n is t e r t o t h a t p o r t fo li o w h e n h e a p p r o a c h e d y o u ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

Ye s .

I am sure he would

have known that.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . I a m j u s t t r y i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n ly …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m u s t r e m e m b e r h o w – h o w l o n g h e h a d b e e n i n

t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u l d n o t a ff e c t w h e t h e r o r n o t h e i s in v o lv e d i n
tenders. Is it not?

Page 28 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Tr u e , tr u e y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

It is th e m e r e o c c u p a t i o n o f t h e m i n i s te r i a l p o s it i o n

that should take him out of …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is s u e o f te n d e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

L e t u s j u s t d e a l w i th t h a t t h e n

b e c a u s e y o u a r e t h e Mi n is te r y o u a r e n o t i n v o lv e d i n a n y t e n d e r i n g
10

process.

I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d a n d t h is p e r s o n h a s n o t

t e n d e r e d a t a ll .

N o , h e h a s n o t s u b m i t t e d a t e n d e r.

B y c a ll in g t h e n

M r L u c k y M o n t a n a w h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n th a t p r o c e s s w o u l d
h e b e – if M r M o n t a n a w e r e t o f il l I d o n o t k n o w h e fe e ls a b o u t o r h e
f e l t a b o u t it .
W o u l d i t b e w r o n g f o r h i m t o f e e l t h a t t h e M i n is t e r w a n te d y o u
t o h a v e a r e l o o k a t th is t h in g b e c a u s e n o w t h e M i n is t e r is h e r e ? T h i s
p e r s o n is c o m p l a in in g h e is h e r e a n d y e t h e h a s n o t t e n d e r e d .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : N o . I d o n o t t h in k t h a t h e
w o u ld h a v e f e l t th a t t h e r e w a s n e e d t o r e l o o k a t th e te n d e r. I n te n d e r
20

p r o c e s s e s t h e r e a r e a l w a y s lo s e r s a n d p e o p l e w o u l d fi n d s o m e th in g t o
r e g is t e r a s h a v i n g b e e n a b n o r m a l i n r e g a r d t o a t e n d e r. S o th a t th e y –
t h e y t a k e th e i r c h a n c e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o I a m j u s t tr y in g to u n d e r s t a n d t h e
lo g i c i n y o u f a c il i ta t in g t h e m e e ti n g . B e c a u s e e x c u s e m e i f I a p p e a r n o t
t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g b u t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t y o u

Page 29 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
h a d a p p o i n t e d a s a M in is t e r. Yo u w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d a n d y o u s h o u ld n o t
b e in v o lv e d i n t h e t e n d e r p r o c e s s e s a n d s o m e b o d y c o m p l a i n s .
A p e r s o n w h o h a s n o t te n d e r e d b y t h e w a y. H e c o m e s t o y o u
a n d h e s a y s – h e c o m p l a i n s a n d y o u s a y h e t h r e a t e n s l i ti g a t i o n a n d
t h e n y o u s a y o k a y l e t u s o b v i a te t h a t.

Let us see what can – let us

h e a r fr o m M r M o n ta n a a n d y o u w e r e a ls o p a r t o f th is m e e ti n g .

I am

tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t is th a t y o u w e r e tr y i n g a c h i e v e .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : E x a c tly w h a t I h a v e s t a te d
in m y s ta t e m e n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H e – h e s a y s h e s o u g h t t o e n s u r e th a t Mr G u p ta
g o t c l a r i fic a ti o n o r a n s w e r s t o h i s q u e s t io n s s o th a t b e f o r e h e c a n
d e c i d e w h e t h e r to g o t o c o u r t o r n o t a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e …
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: The explanation.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s I h e a r t h a t Mr C h a ir m a n .

I w a n t to

u n d e r s t a n d b u t t h e n y o u w e r e a ls o p a r t o f t h a t m e e ti n g ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

Ye s .

I am the one who

in it i a t e d th e m e e ti n g .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

S o I w a s p a r t o f th e

m e e ti n g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

And

c o u ld

you

not

have

a l lo w e d

M r M o n t a n a t o m e e t w i t h Mr G u p ta a l o n e ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

Page 30 of 103

That would have been

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
p o s s i b le b u t I in i ti a te d t h e m e e ti n g .

At that stage Mr Montana – if I

in tr o d u c e h i m t o s o m e b o d y a t l e a s t I s h o u l d b e th e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : W h y a m I i n tr o d u c in g h i m ?
W h a t is th e i s s u e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : S o I h a d t o e x p l a i n to h i m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n – s o t h e e n d

result was that he understood?
10

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : J a , th e e n d r e s u lt w a s t h a t
h e u n d e r s t o o d , w a s n o t h a p p y b u t th a t w a s i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n w h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

If I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ly p r i o r t o t h a t

y o u h a d h a d s o m e in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h e i t h e r M r To n y G u p t a o r th e G u p ta
f a m ily b e f o r e th e – b e fo r e h e p h o n e d y o u ( in t e r v e n e s ) t e n d e r ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s i t o n e o r t w o i n te r a c t io n s t h a t y o u h a d h a d
20

w i t h h i m o r y o u h a d c o m e t o k n o w h i m q u i t e w e l l b e f o r e t h a t?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

As I – as I explained in

p a r t o f t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t I h a d r e a d I h a d m e t h i m i n d i ffe r e n t
c o n te x t s . I m a d e m e n ti o n t h a t t h e fir s t t i m e th a t I m e t h i m w a s w h e n I
w a s a p p o i n t e d a f t e r I h a d b e e n a p p o in t e d a s t h e D e p u t y M i n is te r o f
P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s …

Page 31 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

And the Department of

P u b l ic E n t e r p r i s e s h a d a T N A S A B C E v e n t – b r e a k f a s t m e e ti n g – t h a t
w a s – w h ic h h a d b e e n a r r a n g e d b e fo r e m y a r r iv a l a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
S o w h e n t h i s b r e a k f a s t m e e t in g w a s t o ta k e p l a c e I m e t Mr To n y G u p t a
a n d h is b r o th e r - A t u l - w h o w a s in v o lv e d i n th e m e d i a a s p e c t o f t h e ir
b u s i n e s s b e c a u s e a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r b r e a k f a s t m e e t i n g t h e M i n i s te r
w o u ld h a v e t o a n s w e r q u e s t io n s o r m a k e a s t a te m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

A n d t h e D e p u t y M i n is t e r

w o u ld a l s o h a v e a r o l e to p l a y in t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : S o t h a t w a s b u t o n e o th e r
occasion that I said …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

Th a t I h a d m e t t h e G u p t a

brothers …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
20

A n d t h e n I m a d e m e n t io n

t o t h i s p a r tic u la r ti m e I h a d m e t t h e m a n d t h e n a ft e r t h a t w a s a t t h e
a ir p o r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n le t u s ta lk th e n a b o u t …
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e a n o t h e r q u e s t io n w o u ld b e y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p

w i t h t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s a t t h a t ti m e w a s i t s i m p l y a p r o f e s s i o n a l
r e l a ti o n s h i p i n y o u r o ffi c i a l c a p a c it y a s e i t h e r p r e v i o u s D e p u t y M i n is t e r

Page 32 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
o r n o w a s a M i n i s t e r o r d i d i t g o b e y o n d t h a t?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

It

was

s i m p ly

a

p r o f e s s i o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n M r M a r ti n s t h e n
y o u th e n t e s t i fy th a t a ft e r t h e n y o u h a d th is m e e ti n g a n d y o u h a d
d is m i s s e d th e - t h e fu n c t io n t h a t i s g o i n g t o b e h e ld o n t h e t a r m a c .
W h e n a g a i n th e n d i d y o u – w h e n d i d y o u g e t t h i s c a ll fr o m th e AT N S
O ff ic i a l?
10

MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

If memory services me

w e ll I r e c e iv e d t h e c a l l fr o m t h e AT N S O ff ic i a l a f t e r t h e p l a n e h a d
la n d e d a t W a t e r k l o o f A ir …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

A ir b a s e

and

after

th e

w e d d i n g h a d b e e n i n p r o c e s s o r t h e w e d d in g p r o c e e d i n g s h a d b e e n i n
p r o c e s s f o r a d a y t o t w o . I t w a s d u r in g t h a t t i m e . T h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d
t o b e in t h e c o u n tr y fo r fo u r d a y s o r f iv e d a y s b u t d u r in g t h a t p e r io d
w a s – I th in k i t w a s t h e s e c o n d d a y - I s p e a k u n d e r c o r r e c t io n – w h e n I
r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m a n o ff ic i a l fr o m AT N S o n e m o r n i n g to s a y t h a t h e r e
20

is t h is p l a n e th a t w a s i n t h e c o u n tr y w h ic h d i d n o t h a v e c o r r e c t p a p e r s .
T h e o p e r a t o r ’s p e r m i t is r e fe r r e d t o s o m e w h e r e in t h e
s t a te m e n t a n d t h e y – t h e y i n f o r m e d m e th a t i f a p l a n e is i n t h e c o u n tr y
w i t h o u t t h e r e q u is i te p a p e r s th e r e is a fi n e t o b e i m p o s e d a n d I s a id g o
a h e a d i m p o s e th e fi n e a n d e n s u r e t h a t t h e p l a n e i s n o t i n t h e c o u n tr y
w i t h o u t th e c o r r e c t p a p e r s .

Page 33 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

W o u ld t h i s h a v e b e e n t h e f ir s t

in c i d e n t th a t a p l a n e w it h o u t p a p e r s h a d b e e n r e p o r t e d t o y o u ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Th a t w a s th e fi r s t a n d o n ly
ti m e t h a t I r e c a l l a p l a n e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

B e in g r e p o r te d i n t h a t

nature.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n y o u d e a l w i t h th a t a s p e c t a t p a g e
7 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 .
10

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t m a ’a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

S o w h a t t h i s p l a n e d id n o t h a v e

a c c o r d i n g t o t h a t s t a te m e n t i s t h e Fo r e ig n O p e r a t o r ’s P e r m i t?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n d o y o u k n o w h o w t h is 8 0 0 0 0
w a s c a lc u la t e d o r w a s th a t n o t s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u g o t i n v o l v e d i n ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t i s n o t w i th i n th e r e m i t
o f m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty t h e c a lc u l a ti o n s o f t h e f e e s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
20

But what I do recall was

t h a t t h e in d iv i d u a l c o n c e r n e d w h o c a ll e d m e s a i d t h a t th e r e a r e o n e o r
t w o f e e s b u t t h e h i g h e s t fe e w a s t h is 8 2 …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

A n d I s a i d p r o c e e d w it h

that.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h e n t h i s r e p o r t t h e n is m a d e

Page 34 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
t o y o u . W e r e y o u e x p e c te d to d o a n y t h i n g a b o u t i t?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Which report?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e r e p o r t a b o u t t h is p l a n e t h a t h a d

la n d e d w i t h o u t a F o r e i g n O p e r a to r ’s P e r m i t .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

M y – t h e o ffi c i a l w h o

c a l l e d m e w a s in f o r m i n g m e – g iv i n g m e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h i s is w h a t
h a s h a p p e n e d . Th is p l a n e is i n th e c o u n t r y w it h o u t t h e r e q u is i t e p a p e r s
…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U E M A R T I N S : A n d I s a i d w h a t is y o u r d u t y
in r e g a r d to t h a t ? W h a t a r e y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o a n d h e e x p l a i n e d
t h a t a fi n e h a s t o b e i m p o s e d a n d I s a i d t h a t c o n t in u e , c a r r y o u t w h a t
t h e la w a n d r e g u la t io n s r e q u ir e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : S o t h a t is th e fu n c t io n t h a t
w a s my r e s p o n s i b i li t y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Yo u r r e s p o n s ib il i ty, a lr i g h t a n d th e n d i d

y o u r e c e iv e a n y in v i t a ti o n t o th e w e d d i n g ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
20

I d i d r e c e iv e a n i n v i ta t io n

t o t h e w e d d in g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d y o u d e a l w i t h th a t a t p a g e – l e t

m e ju s t g e t t o i t – i f I m a y t a k e y o u b a c k t o p a g e 5 p a r a g r a p h 11 .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s , y e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s a n d c o u l d y o u j u s t te ll t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t y o u s a y i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h ?

Page 35 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I w a s i n v i te d t o th e G u p t a
w e d d i n g . T h e i n v it a ti o n w a s d e l iv e r e d t o m y o ff ic e . T h e i n v i ta t io n w a s
in t h e n a m e o f th e b r i d e a n d b r i d e g r o o m . I d i d n o t a t t e n d th e w e d d i n g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C o u ld y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e

r e a s o n s w h y y o u d id n o t a t te n d ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h e r e a r e tw o r e a s o n s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

O v e r th a t t i m e o f th e

w e d d i n g I h a d a p e r s o n a l f a m ily c o m m i t m e n t t o a tt e n d t o a n d t h e o t h e r
10

r e a s o n t h a t w a s g iv e n a C o m m i t t e e o f S e c u r i t y C lu s t e r M i n i s t e r s h a d
m e t a n d a d v is e d a g a i n s t M in is t e r s a tt e n d i n g t h a t w e d d in g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n w e h a d – th e C o m m i s s i o n

h a d r e f e r r e d y o u t o th e J C P S C l u s t e r th a t w o u ld h a v e r e l a te d t o t h a t
C o m m i t t e e o f M i n i s t e r s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d y o u w e r e a s k e d t o c o m m e n t

s p e c i f ic a l ly t o s o m e p a r t s o f th a t r e p o r t.

D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t a n d y o u

d e a l w it h y o u r c o m m e n ts in p a r a g r a p h 1 9 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

M r C h a ir m a n j u s t t h e – t h e J P S –

J C P S R e p o r t is c o n ta in e d i n M s S i n d a n e ’s s t a te m e n t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f t h e w i tn e s s is a b l e to ju s t t e l l u s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h , j u s t to t e l l u s , a lr i g h t .

Page 36 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d o e s n o t h a v e t o r e fe r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e a d it .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d o e s n o t h a v e t o r e fe r t o i t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If h e k n o w s e x a c tl y …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . H e h a s c o m m e n t e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h e w a n ts t o s a y. H e c a n s a y i t …
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i f h e w a n t s t o r e fr e s h h i s m e m o r y t h e n h e c a n

lo o k a t i t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e m i g h t b e a b le t o ju s t te ll u s w it h o u t u s h a v i n g
to go to the report.
A D V T H A N D I N O R A N : A lr i g h t , th a n k y o u . Yo u c o m m e n t o n t h e r e p o r t
in p a r a g r a p h 1 9 . C o u l d y o u ju s t t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n b r ie f ly w h a t y o u
s a y in t h a t – i n t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
20

In

February 2013

M r To n y G u p t a a p p r o a c h e d th e A ir p o r t C o m p a n y o f S o u t h A f r ic a t o
e n q u ir e a b o u t th e u s e o f O R Ta m b o I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t fo r th e a r r i v a l
of at least …
CHAIRPERSON: We must not go back.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h is i s , y e s . T h i s is th e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Are we not going back?

Page 37 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e a r e g o i n g b a c k . T h is is th e e v i d e n c e
t h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g i v e n .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D ir e c t h e r t o s o m e th in g n e w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D ir e c t h i m t o s o m e th i n g h e w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o u ld y o u j u s t g o u p t o …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d e v e n i f i t is r e a l ly i m p o r t a n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o C h a ir m a n ju s t …
CHAIRPERSON:

I k n o w th a t h is e v i d e n c e i s s u p p o s e d to b e v e r y

li m i te d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o d e f in i te ly. C o u l d y o u j u s t g o t o p a g e –
paragraph 19.4 page 8 of your statement.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Yo u m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o a f o l lo w u p

m e e ti n g . W e r e y o u p a r t o f t h a t f o l lo w u p m e e ti n g ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
20

N o I w a s n o t p a r t o f th e

f o ll o w u p m e e ti n g . A s I s t a t e d e a r l ie r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

The

correspondence

b e t w e e n M r To n y G u p ta a n d M r M a s e k o c o n ti n u e d . M r M a s e k o a d v i s e d
h i m o f s e e k i n g th e s e r v ic e s o f L a n s e r i a Ai r p o r t a n d th e o th e r o n e
P il a n e s b e r g – i f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n .

Page 38 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
Cluster had the

Ye s a n d w h e n th is c lu s te r - M i n i s t e r s

Committee did you

s u b m i t a s t a t e m e n t to

th e

Committee?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

I t i s r e fe r r e d t o i n th e

r e p o r t t h a t t h e y c o m p i le d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I n t h e r e p o r t i ts e l f a n d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t i s

r e c o r d e d th e r e a s h a v i n g – y o u h a v e s u b m i tt e d a s ta t e m e n t a n d
10

w h a t e v e r it is t h a t y o u s a i d in t h a t s t a t e m e n t is c o r r e c t – th e r e f e r e n c e
t o y o u r s e l f i n t h a t r e p o r t?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

I

would

assume

it

is

c o r r e c t . I h a v e n o t th e s t a te m e n t I h a v e s u b m i t t e d s i n c e …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Since that time.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A y e a r i n q u e s ti o n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : B u t I a m s u r e t h a t it w o u l d
c o r r e s p o n d t o w h a t m y e v i d e n c e h a s b e e n h e r e t o d a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u . M a y b e b e c a u s e I d o h a v e
20

t h a t s ta t e m e n t u n f o r tu n a te ly i t w a s r e c e iv e d l a te r y e s t e r d a y fr o m S t a t e
S e c u r i ty.

M r C h a ir m a n i f I m a y j u s t u n fo r t u n a t e ly t h e b u n d l e s o n t h i s

a s p e c t a r e n o t r e a d y. If y o u w o u l d j u s t a l l o w m e b e f o r e I h a n d u p y o u r
r e v is e d b u n d l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Do you know whether the statement says

a n y th in g …

Page 39 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I j u s t w a n t to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m w h a t h e h a s s a i d ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I j u s t w a n t t o – t o r e a d i t to h i m . I t i s a

v e r y s h o r t s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t I w a n t t o fi n d o u t w h e t h e r y o u k n o w w h e t h e r
it s a y s a n y t h i n g d i ffe r e n t fr o m w h a t h e h a s a lr e a d y t o l d m e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

No, no, no.

It does not say anything

d i ff e r e n t b u t I th in k it i s i m p o r ta n t f o r t h e w i t n e s s t o s e e i t a n d t h e n s a y
t h a t th is is i n d e e d w h a t h e h a d s u b m i t t e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g is i t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o i t is t w o p a g e s , t h a n k y o u . M a y I t h e n
– u n f o r tu n a te ly t h i s i s y o u r b u n d l e Mr C h a ir m a n .

Just to have the

w i t n e s s h a v e a l o o k a t it , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t a s t a t e m e n t t h a t h e s ig n e d ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I t is h i s s t a te m e n t . H e s u b m i t t e d i t
to the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , w e ll h e c a n a l w a y s s u b m i t a s u p p le m e n t a r y

a ffi d a v i t a n d c o n f ir m w h e t h e r i t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t i s y o u r c o m m e n t ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w y o u – y o u h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n a l o t o f t i m e t o
h a v e a lo o k . Ar e y o u s a tis f ie d y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e t o r e a d i t p r o p e r l y t o
b e a b l e t o s a y if i t is c o r r e c t ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Thank you Judge. I – I did
read - read the statement.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 40 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

That

is

what

I

have

a r ti c u la t e d e v e n h e r e to d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n a n d

t h e n i n r e s p o n s e to p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 . 1 5 o f t h e r e p o r t t h e q u e s t i o n p o s e d
10

w a s w h e th e r y o u r e c e iv e d a n y i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e Pr e s id e n t t o a s s is t
t h e G u p t a f a m ily a s a l l e g e d in t h a t p a r a g r a p h a n d c o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h a t .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

I d id n o t r e c e iv e a n y

in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m F o r m e r Pr e s id e n t Z u m a t o a s s i s t in t h a t r e g a r d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d d i d y o u a t a n y s t a g e g iv e a n y

in s t r u c t i o n t o a n y o n e t o a ll o w t h e l a n d in g o f t h a t a i r c r a f t a t W a t e r k lo o f ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

I d id n o t g iv e a n y o n e

in s t r u c t i o n s t o a l l o w t h e l a n d i n g b e c a u s e a s I s a id i n m y s t a t e m e n t th e
M i n is tr y o f Tr a n s p o r t o r t h e M i n i s te r o f Tr a n s p o r t d o e s n o t h a v e
20

a u t h o r i ty o v e r W a t e r k l o o f A ir b a s e .

I t fa lls u n d e r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f

D e f e n c e a n d M i li t a r y Ve t e r a n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

I s th e r e a n y th i n g e ls e y o u w is h to

t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o t h e r t h a n w h a t y o u h a v e t e s t i fi e d t o t h is m o r n i n g ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h e r e is n o t h i n g e ls e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 41 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t I w is h t o s h a r e n o w.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

Th a t i s t h e

e v i d e n c e f o r t h is – fr o m t h is w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr M a r t i n s w e d o s e e k t o e s t a b l is h f r o m c u r r e n t a n d

p a s t M e m b e r s o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e w h e t h e r t h e y h a d a n y i n t e r a c ti o n s w it h
t h e G u p t a f a m il y in t h e p a s t a n d y o u h a v e t o l d m e s o m e o f th e
in t e r a c ti o n s t h a t y o u h a v e h a d b u t I t a k e th is o p p o r t u n i ty t o a s k
w h e t h e r y o u e v e r v i s i t e d t h e – th e ir r e s i d e n c e a t S a x o n w o ld .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : J u d g e I d id …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : And …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e y o u c a n te ll m e w h e n – w h e n i t w a s i f y o u
a r e a b le t o r e m e m b e r.

H o w m a n y t i m e s if y o u a r e a b le t o r e m e m b e r

a n d w h a t th e o c c a s io n w a s a n d w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d i f y o u f e e l th a t i t i s
something you can share.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

T h e o c c a s io n th a t I w e n t

t o t h e r e s i d e n c e t h e r e t h e G u p ta f a m il y h a d o r g a n is e d a n I n d i a n Fo o d
F a ir.

I went there.

It w a s i n t h e m o r n i n g .

I cannot recall the exact

date …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n d th e y w e r e d is p l a y in g –
t h e y h a d c h e fs o r c o o k s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
p r e p a r e r o t is .

Page 42 of 103

That

showed

how

to

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

How

to

prepare

o th e r

I n d ia n fo o d s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

And I was there.

It had

b e e n a p u b li c i n v i t a ti o n t o m e m b e r s o f t h e p u b lic .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

S o m e m e m b e r s o f th e

p u b lic I a s s u m e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n d a l s o M i n i s te r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : So I attended that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : At one of the residences at
S a x o n w o ld .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Wa s i t o n o n e o c c a s io n t h a t y o u v is it e d th e -

t h e ir r e s i d e n c e o r w a s i t m o r e th a n o n c e ?
20

MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

I think I have been there

m o r e th a n o n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Tw o , t h r e e t i m e s m a y b e m u c h m o r e t h a n t h r e e ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : N o , n o p e r h a p s a b o u t tw o
ti m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t w o t i m e s y e s a n d th e o t h e r ti m e w h a t w a s t h e

Page 43 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
o c c a s i o n if y o u a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

T h e o th e r ti m e w a s e i th e r

s h o r tl y a f t e r m y a p p o i n t m e n t a s t h e M in is t e r – D e p u t y M in is t e r o f P u b li c
E n t e r p r is e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

Or after my appointment

a s th e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
10

There

was

a

TNA

Breakfast Show …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t I h a d to a d d r e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n d th e f o r m a t I h a d b e e n
told that …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : That was used in the past
w a s th a t a M in is t e r w o u l d c o m e a n d a d d r e s s s p e a k a b o u t t h e
department …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

A n d t h e r e a ft e r q u e s ti o n s

w o u ld b e a s k e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

A n d my v ie w w a s t h a t

in s t e a d o f j u s t t h e M i n i s t e r a d d r e s s i n g t h e o c c a s i o n i t w o u l d b e

Page 44 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
a d v is a b l e i f t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l, D e p u t y M i n is t e r a n d o t h e r k e y p e o p l e
b e a b le t o a n s w e r q u e s t io n s fr o m t h e fl o o r – fr o m t h e p u b li c . S o i n t h a t
in t e r a c ti o n th e p e r s o n I s p o k e to t h e r e w a s M r A tu l G u p t a t h e m i d d l e
b r o t h e r w h o w a s i n v o l v e d w i t h th e a r r a n g e m e n t o f th e S A B C a n d th e ir
li n k to t h e m e d ia . S o th a t w a s t h e c o n t e x t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t - t h a t w a s n o t a t th e r e s id e n c e w a s it ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h a t m e e t i n g t o o k p la c e a t
– a t th e r e s id e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: At the residence?
10

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : J a th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: So that was the second?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e c o n d – s e c o n d m e e ti n g ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But it - that one was business.

Yo u w e r e th e r e fo r

b u s i n e s s in t h e s e n s e o f t h o s e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s ?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e fir s t o n e w a s n o t b u s in e s s ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :
20

T h e f ir s t o n e w a s n o t

business.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

The

second

one

was

o c c a s i o n e d b y th e y h a d c a l le d t h e o ff ic e . T h e r e h a d b e e n i n t e r a c ti o n .
This was coming up …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 45 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : A n d th e n s a i d th a t c a n y o u
p a s s th e r e . W e w il l d is c u s s t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : So I went there.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d to t h e i r o ff ic e s – S a h a r a O ffi c e s – d i d y o u

ever go there?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

No I have never been to

t h e S a h a r a O ff ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t g o th e r e , y e s . D i d t h e y e v e r a s k y o u f o r
10

– d i d t h e y e v e r a s k y o u t o f a c il i ta t e a n y b u s i n e s s fo r – f o r t h e m i n y o u r
c a p a c i ty a s e i th e r M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t o r D e p u t y M i n i s t e r o f P u b l ic
Works?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : No, not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id n o t ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : They did not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : The engagement was what
I r e f e r r e d to .
CHAIRPERSON: What you have – what you have said?

20

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y th i n g ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

Mr Chairman thank you.

T h e r e is j u s t o n e d o c u m e n t I f o r g o t to r e f e r t h e w i tn e s s to w h i c h

Page 46 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
appears in Bundle FF8 which I have placed before – next to the witness
at page 38.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

J u s t o n e q u e s t i o n f o r M r M a r t in s to

id e n t i fy t h a t d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e i t r e l a te s t o t h e fo r e ig n p e r m i t t h a t h e
made reference to. Page 38.
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D o y o u i d e n t i fy t h e – i t is a d o c u m e n t fr o m
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . Ye s .
10

M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : Ye s I c a n s e e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Could you just explain what that

d o c u m e n t i s t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS :

The

heading

of

th e

document reads:
“ D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t I n t e r n a ti o n a l A ir S e r v ic e s
A c t o f 1 9 9 3 A p p li c a t io n f o r a Fo r e ig n O p e r a t o r ’s
P e r m i t , A p p li c a t io n f o r a n A m e n d m e n t t o a Fo r e ig n
O p e r a t o r ’s P e r m i t ”
A n d t h e n t h e r e s t o f th e p r i n t is il le g i b le t h e r e .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s b u t i s t h is th e d o c u m e n t t h a t w o u l d

r e l a t e t o th e fo r e ig n p e r m it t h a t y o u s p o k e a b o u t e a r li e r ?
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e th e r o n e h a s i t o r n o t?
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : T h is p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t I
have not seen before.

Page 47 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t .
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : S o I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h is
the – what document the relevant agency issues.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. He might not know because …
M R B E N E D I C T A N T H O N Y D U K E M A R T I N S : I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e w e r e o p e r a t io n a l i s s u e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Ye s , th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is a l l , t h a n k y o u .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r M a r ti n s f o r c o m i n g t o g i v e

evidence. We appreciate it. Thank you very much.
MR BENEDICT ANTHONY DUKE MARTINS : Thank you Judge.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n t h e n e x t w i tn e s s –
I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r w e w il l a d jo u r n f o r – fo r t h e s h o r t b r e a k b e fo r e I
c a l l th e n e x t w i t n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is – is th e r e m u c h to o h a p p e n w h e n h e g o e s th e r e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s b e c a u s e w e n e e d t o p la c e h is – h is

b u n d l e th e r e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t n o t t h e s a m e ? I s i t j u s t o n e b u n d l e ? M a y b e w e
c a n a v o id t h a t a d j o u r n m e n t b e c a u s e w e w i l l a d j o u r n a t q u a r t e r a n y w a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t , t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . M a y t h e w i t n e s s
be sworn in?

Page 48 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

P l e a s e a d m i n i s t e r th e o a t h o r a ffi r m a ti o n .

W h i c h e x h i b it a r e w e g o i n g t o u s e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I beg your pardon.

It would be EXHIBIT

F F 9 Mr C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Nine?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Nine yes – FF9.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: H e n d r i k J a c o b u s M a r a i s .
REGISTRAR:
10

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I d o n o t .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: S o h e l p m e G o d .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s )
20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

M r M a r a is y o u h a v e p l a c e d – a d o c u m e n t p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u E X H I B I T
F F 9 . D o y o u h a v e i t?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I d o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C o u l d y o u p l e a s e lo o k a t p a g e – I

Page 49 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
w i ll g iv e y o u t h e p a g e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y M s N o r m a n t h e f il e c o n t a i n in g a s t a te m e n t fr o m
A ir Tr a ffic a n d N a v i g a ti o n S e r v i c e s w il l b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T F F 9 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A s – a s C h a ir p e r s o n p le a s e s , t h a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u . Mr M a r a is i f y o u l o o k a t p a g e 1 – n u m b e r e d o n t o p o f th a t
p a g e o n y o u r r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d I j u s t w a n t y o u t o i d e n ti fy t h a t

s t a te m e n t . Th e r e is a s ig n a tu r e a ls o a p p e a r i n g a t p a g e 2 9 – 2 - 9 . D o
10

y o u s e e it ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I id e n ti fy th e s t a t e m e n t a n d i t is m y
s ig n a tu r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h a t t h e c o n te n ts a r e tr u e a n d

correct?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: C o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

Could you just give the

C h a ir p e r s o n b r i e fl y y o u r q u a li f ic a t i o n s ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

C h a ir p e r s o n I s ta r t e d m y c a r e e r i n

t h e S o u th A f r ic a n A ir F o r c e in 1 9 8 0 a s a n A ir Tr a ffic C o n tr o ll e r. I t h e n
20

jo in e d th e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t in 1 9 8 4 a ls o a s a n A ir Tr a ffi c
C o n tr o l l e r b u t ju s t in t h e c iv il ia n d o m a in i n s t e a d o f th e m il i ta r y. I w a s
a n A ir Tr a ffic C o n tr o ll e r …
CHAIRPERSON: I am – I am sorry …
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: N o t a p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a r a i s . I t l o o k s lik e – I m e a n y o u d id p la c e – p u t

Page 50 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
y o u r n a m e s o n r e c o r d b e fo r e t a k i n g t h e o a th b u t I w a s l o o k i n g f o r th e
f u ll n a m e in t h e – in t h e s ta t e m e n t. I t d o e s n o t lo o k i t a p p e a r s a t t h e
b e g in n i n g a n d i t is j u s t t h e i n it i a l a n d th e s u r n a m e . I t l o o k s – d o e s n o t
lo o k l ik e h is f u l l n a m e s c a n b e f o u n d a n y w h e r e in t h e d o c u m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : ( I n d is t in c t) .
CHAIRPERSON: Am I missing something Ms Norman?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o y o u a r e n o t Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t th e s e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H is f u l l n a m e s s h o u l d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e b e e n g iv e n . W h a t d o e s H s t a n d fo r ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: H e n d r i k .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: H e n d r i k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e s p e ll t h a t f o r m e .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: H - E - N - D - R …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H - E- N ?

20

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: Ye s s ir. D - R - I- K .
CHAIRPERSON: D-R?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I- K .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I- K , H e n d r i k ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

Page 51 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Thank you.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

I p e r f o r m e d a s a n A ir Tr a ffic

C o n tr o l l e r i n th e S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir F o r c e a n d in t h e c i v i li a n d o m a in .
E v e n t u a ll y b e c a m e a n I n s tr u c t o r a n d M a n a g e r o f Tr a in i n g . Th e n m o v e d
in t o t h e S a f e ty M a n a g e m e n t S y s t e m s o f Av ia t io n o r A ir Tr a ffi c C o n tr o l
r a th e r a n d i n to t h e p l a n n i n g . In m y c u r r e n t r o l e I a m t h e E x e c u tiv e in
c h a r g e o f d e l iv e r in g a i r tr a ffic s e r v ic e s f o r t h e c iv i li a n c o n tr o l a ir s p a c e
in S o u th A fr ic a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s .

W h e r e a r e y o u c u r r e n t ly e m p l o y e d

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

M y ti t le is th e C h ie f o f A ir Tr a ff ic

a n d w h a t i s y o u r p o s i t io n ?

S e r v ic e s e m p lo y e d a t t h e AT N S H e a d O ff ic e i n Br u m a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e r e is t h a t ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I n B r u m a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

In Bruma.

Ye s .

What - what is the

r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f AT N S ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: AT N S i s r e s p o n s i b l e t o a c q u ir e a n d
d e p lo y in fr a s tr u c t u r e a n d d e li v e r t h e a ir t r a ffi c s e r v ic e s t o e n s u r e t h e
s a f e t y o f a v i a t i o n i n t h e c o n tr o l le d a ir s p a c e w it h in th e S t a t e o f S o u t h
20

A fr ic a a n d o c e a n i c a ir s p a c e d e l e g a t e d t o S o u th A fr ic a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d h o w d o e s th a t h a p p e n ?

Is i t –

d o e s it h a p p e n w h e n a p l a n e la n d s o r w h e n a p la n ta k e s o ff ? A t w h a t
p o i n t d o y o u g e t in v o lv e d ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

W e a r e in v o lv e d in th e e n t ir e

p r o c e s s . S o w e w il l r e c e iv e t h e f li g h t p l a n f o r th e a ir c r a f t . B e t h a t a

Page 52 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
d e p a r t u r e o u t o f o n e o f o u r d o m e s t ic a ir p o r ts o r l a n d i n g a t o n e o f o u r
a ir p o r ts o r e v e n f ly i n g b e t w e e n tw o a ir p o r ts w it h in S o u t h A f r ic a .

We

r e c e i v e th e f li g h t p l a n . W e a r e i n v o lv e d p l a n n in g f o r t h a t fl ig h t i n te r ms
o f t h e s l o t c o o r d in a ti o n . W h e n t h a t a ir c r a f t c a n d e p a r t a n d w h e n n o t .
S o w e m i n i m i s e t h e d e l a y s o n t h e f li g h t a n d o f c o u r s e
o p t i m is e f u e l b u r n . W e w i ll t a k e c a r e o f th e d e p a r t u r e c le a r a n c e f o r t h e
tr a ffic , t h e s t a r t- u p ta x i , t h e t a k e - o ff , t h e c li m b o u t , t h e c r u is e a n d o n
t h e o t h e r e n d a g a i n t h e d e s c e n t , t h e a p p r o a c h a n d t h e la n d i n g i n t o t h e
d e s ti n a t io n a ir p o r t .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So you (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – I a m s o r r y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh, I beg your pardon.
CHAIRPERSON: So – so you – so are you responsible for making sure
t h a t a f li g h t d o e s n o t t a k e o ff i f i t is n o t s a fe t o d o s o , d o e s n o t l a n d i f
it is n o t s a fe t o d o s o a m o n g o t h e r th i n g s ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

C h a ir m a n y e s th a t is c o r r e c t .

We

a r e f o c u s e d p r i m a r ily o n s a f e ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: A n d s e c o n d ly o n e ff ic ie n c y. S o i f i t
20

is n o t s a f e t h e a i r c r a ft w i ll n o t d e p a r t o r l a n d . F o r e x a m p l e i f t h e r e i s
a n o b s tr u c ti o n o n th e r u n w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h e r e is ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: A n o b s tr u c ti o n o n th e r u n w a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

O r t r a ffi c i n t h e w a y o f t h a t tr a ffi c

Page 53 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: D e p a r ti n g o r l a n d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d – a n d y o u b a s i c a l ly g i v e th e f i n a l w o r d i f y o u
t h i n k i t i s n o t s a f e t h a t is – t h a t is f i n a l . N o b o d y is g o i n g to i n te r f e r e
w i t h t h a t f r o m o u ts id e y o u r s e c ti o n ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I n e e d t o e x p la in …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u a d v ic e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: M a y I e x p l a i n a b it o n t h a t?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , p l e a s e , p le a s e d o .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ye s w e w i ll m a k e th e d e c i s i o n i n

t e r m s o f a ir tr a ffi c s a fe ty. S o i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g o n t h e r u n w a y w e
w i ll s a y n o y o u a r e n o t c le a r e d fo r ta k e - o ff o r y o u a r e n o t c l e a r t o l a n d
a n d t h e a i r p l a n e w i ll e x e c u te a m is s e d a p p r o a c h . H o w e v e r t h e u l ti m a t e
r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r s a f e ty o f a n a i r c r a ft a n d i ts o c c u p a n ts s ti ll l i e s w i th
t h e p i lo t in c o m m a n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t – s o – s o y o u – y o u g i v e y o u r – y o u m a k e

y o u r d e c is i o n a n d – b u t t h e r e i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e t w e e n y o u r s e lv e s a n d
t h e p i lo t t h a t t h e p i lo t m a k e s t h e f i n a l d e c i s io n ?
20

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f h e m a k e s a d e c i s io n t h a t is c o n tr a r y t o y o u r –
y o u r d e c is io n th a t i s h is j u d g m e n t c a l l ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: Ye s J u d g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t w o u l d n o t h a p p e n li g h tly I w o u ld i m a g i n e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: N o t h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s .

Page 54 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t n o r m a l c ir c u m s ta n c e s ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
thing?

Ye s .

O k a y.

A ls o w i t h r e g a r d t o d e p a r t u r e s a m e

Yo u – y o u m a k e y o u r d e c is io n s i t is s a f e f o r t h e fl i g h t t o t a k e

o ff?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n t h e p i lo t d e c i d e s w h e t h e r t o g o w i t h y o u r

d e c is i o n o r w h e t h e r n o t t o b u t i f h e d o e s n o t g o a c c o r d i n g to y o u r
d e c is i o n t h a t is h is ju d g m e n t c a ll o r h e r ju d g m e n t c a l l ?
10

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: T h e y w ill g o w i t h o u r d e c is io n . T h e
d e c is i o n fo r e x a m p le i f i t is to t a k e o ff w h e r e t h e p i lo t w il l e x e r c is e h is
ju d g m e n t c a l l w il l b e w h e n t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e a i r c r a ft a n d th e y
h a v e t o r e j e c t th e ta k e - o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, o k a y.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

S o t h a t is w h e r e t h e y w i ll e x e r c i s e

that judgement.
CHAIRPERSON: And your – your – because your decision whether an
a ir c r a f t c a n t a k e o ff o r n o t o r s h o u ld o r s h o u l d n o t t a k e o ff o r n o t is
b a s e d o n m a t t e r s o u t s i d e o f th e a ir c r a f t a n d n o t i n s id e ?
20

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f t h e – if t h e p i l o t b e c o m e s a w a r e t h a t t h e r e i s a

p r o b le m w i t h t h e e n g i n e t h a t i s s o m e th i n g y o u d o n o t g e t y o u r s e l f
in v o lv e d in . H e m u s t k n o w o r s h e m u s t k n o w a b o u t th a t ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .

Page 55 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . Yo u
a ls o s a y w h e n y o u d e a l w i t h AT N S t h a t i t is a c o m m e r c i a l is e d e n t i ty
o p e r a ti n g u s e r s p a y – u s e r p a y s . W h a t – w h a t i s t h a t c o n c e p t?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Th is w i ll b e a b i t o f a l e n g t h y

e x p l a n a t io n u n f o r tu n a te ly.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh. Maybe …
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I f it is g o in g t o b e l e n g t h y le t u s
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e te a a d jo u r n m e n t y e s t h a n k y o u .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e w i ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t 11 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .

20

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

Th a n k y o u M r

M a r a is y o u w e r e g o i n g t o r e s p o n d to t h e q u e s t io n a b o u t t h e u s e r p a y s
principle.

Page 56 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ye s m a d a m , J u d g e , A t e n i s a s a

S t a te O w n e d E n t it y i s g o v e r n e d b y o n t h e o n e t h e s a fe ty r e g u l a ti o n
w h ic h is ( i n d is ti n c t) a v ia t io n a u t h o r i ty a n d o n t h e o t h e r s i d e b y th e
E c o n o m ic R e g u l a to r, s o w e d o o u r fiv e - y e a r p la n i n t e r m s o f tr a ffic
f o r e c a s t a n d w h a t w e r e q u i r e to p r o v i d e s e r v ic e s t o th e f o r e c a s t tr a ffic ,
w h ic h m a y m e a n a n e x p a n s i o n in in fr a s tr u c t u r e a n d p e r s o n n e l t o d e liv e r
t h o s e s e r v ic e s . S o e ff e c t iv e l y t h a t f iv e - y e a r p l a n t h e n tu r n s i n t o a f iv e y e a r b u d g e t , w e c o n s u l t o u r p la n s w i t h i n d u s tr y a n d w e t h e n s u b m i t t h is
a p p lic a ti o n f o r a p e r m is s i o n t o l e v y a t a r i ff , p o s t c o n s u l t a ti o n .
10

A

r e g u la t in g c o m m i t t e e w il l th e n , i n c o n s u l ta ti o n w i th t h e Mi n is te r p u b l is h
t h e p e r m is s i o n f o r AT N S t o l e v y a t a r i ff fo r o u r s e r v ic e s . S o t h e u s e r s
t h e n p a y a t a r i ff a n d it ’s b a s e d o n th e w e i g h t o n t h e a ir c r a f t a n d th e
d is t a n c e t h a t a i r c r a f t f li e s i n th e a ir s p a c e u n d e r o u r j u r is d ic t io n . S o a
s m a ll e r a ir c r a f t a n d s h o r t d is ta n c e w i ll h a v e a s m a l l ta r i ff , a b i g a ir c r a f t
fl y i n g a l o n g d is t a n c e in o u r a ir s p a c e w il l p a y a la r g e r t a r i ff a n d t h e n
w e l e v y t h e t a r i ff t o a ff o r d w h a t w e i n s t a l l in t e r m s o f in fr a s tr u c t u r e a n d
p e o p l e w e e m p l o y a n d d e p l o y to d e li v e r o u r s e r v ic e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u – i n p a r a g r a p h
3 .2 . 1 y o u s a y t h a t i n o r d e r f o r AT N S t o o p e r a t e p r o p e r l y i t h a s t o

20

e m p l o y t e c h n ic a l e x p e r ts fo r i t’s e ff e c t iv e o p e r a ti o n s .
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

C o r r e c t , w e e m p l o y a i r t r a ff ic

c o n tr o ll e r s to d e l iv e r t h e s e r v ic e , i t ’s a s p e c i a lis e d j o b , w e t r a in t h o s e
p e o p l e t o b e a b l e t o d e li v e r th e s e r v i c e a n d fir s t a n d f o r e m o s t a g a in t o
d e li v e r o n t h e s a f e ty o b j e c ti v e s , i t ’s a ll a b o u t s a f e ty. T h o s e p e o p l e w e
tr a i n i n t e r n a l ly f ir s t ly a c a d e m ic a n d t h e n o n t h e j o b tr a i n in g t o b e a b l e

Page 57 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
t o d o t h a t, t h e n th e y ’r e a ls o s u b je c t t o r e c u r r e n c y tr a in in g t h r o u g h o u t
t h e y e a r a n d o f c o u r s e l ic e n s e r e n e w a ls a s fo r p il o ts .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

W e a l s o e m p lo y N a u t ic a l

I n f o r m a t io n M a n a g e m e n t p e r s o n n e l w h ic h i s r e fe r r e d t o in t h e n e x t
p a r a g r a p h , s h a l l I c o n ti n u e w i t h th a t?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S :

A n d r e l e v a n t t o t h is is – th o s e w i ll

b e t h e p e o p l e w h o w i ll p r o c e s s th e f li g h t p l a n s w e r e c e iv e . S o th e y ’l l
10

r e c e i v e t h e fl ig h t p l a n , c h e c k it a n d p r o c e s s i t i n t o th e S o u t h A f r i c a n
s y s te m a n d t h e n e n s u r e t h a t, t h a t i n fo r m a t io n i s c a p t u r e d i n o u r A ir
Tr a ff ic M a n a g e m e n t A u t o m a ti o n Sy s te m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w o u l d p r e p a r e f li g h t p l a n s , is i t t h e p il o t o r is i t
s o m e b o d y e ls e ?
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

J u d g e , t h e r e a r e a f e w o p t i o n s , if

y o u a n d I w e r e g o i n g t o f ly to C a p e To w n n o w a n d y o u a r e th e p il o t i n
c o m m a n d y o u c a n s u b m i t t h e fl ig h t p l a n a f e w w a y s , o n e v i a f a x , t h e
o th e r o n e y o u c a n d o i t o n a n i n t e r n e t i n t e r fa c e o r y o u c a n p h o n e t h e
b r i e fi n g o ffic e a n d r e a d t h e f li g h t p l a n a n d w e w ill t h e n c o p y it d o w n
20

a n d t h e n s u b m i t i t in t o t h e s y s t e m .

I f i t ’s a n a i r l in e o p e r a t io n , it w il l

m o s t ly b e t h e o p e r a ti o n c e n tr e s u b m it t in g t h e f li g h t p l a n o n b e h a l f o f
t h e p i lo t in c o m m a n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d t h e f li g h t p la n , b a s ic a l ly p r o p o s e s th a t a t

s u c h a n d s u c h a t i m e , a c e r t a i n a ir c r a f t w il l b e – o r p r o p o s e s t o t a k e o ff
a n d fr o m t h is a ir p o r t to t h a t d e s t i n a t io n , a n d t h e n y o u h a v e a l o o k a n d

Page 58 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
y o u a r e a b l e to – y o u i n v e s t ig a t e w h e th e r e v e r y t h i n g w il l b e in o r d e r a t
t h a t t i m e f o r i t t o t a k e o ff fr o m w h e r e i t p r o p o s e s to ta k e o ff to w h e r e i t
w i ll g o a n d w h e t h e r, w i t h i n S o u t h A f r i c a e v e r y t h in g w il l b e s a f e i n t h e
a ir a n d a ls o w h e t h e r – i f th e d e s t in a ti o n is w i th i n S o u th A fr ic a , w h e t h e r
it w il l b e s a fe f o r i t t o l a n d w h e r e i t p r o p o s e s t o l a n d a t a p a r ti c u la r
ti m e , is th a t – is th a t w h a t y o u r r o le is i n r e g a r d to a fl ig h t p la n ?
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S :

To s o m e e x t e n t , w e r e c e i v e t h e

fl ig h t p la n a n d w e w il l t h e n d o c a p a c i ty p l a n n in g fo r t h e tr a ff ic .

We

k n o w w e a r e q u i t e b u s y m o r n i n g , m i d d a y a n d l a t e a f t e r n o o n , e a r ly
10

e v e n i n g s b e c a u s e i t ’s m o s t ly w h e n d o m e s t ic f li g h ts o p e r a t e to m o v e
b u s i n e s s p e o p l e a c r o s s th e c o u n tr y. S o w e ’l l d o t h e c a p a c i ty p la n n i n g
b a s e d o n t h e f li g h t p l a n a n d w e w il l i n c l u d e t h e i n f o r m a ti o n – w h e n y o u
fi le t h e f li g h t p la n f o r e x a m p l e t o s a y t h e r u n w a y a t y o u r d e s t in a ti o n is
o b s tr u c te d a t t h e m o m e n t o r i t ’s g o t a p r o b l e m w i t h it o r c e r t a i n o f t h e
n a v i g a t i o n a id s e n r o u te o r a p p r o a c h a i d s a t a d e s t i n a t io n a i r p o r t a r e
n o t f u n c ti o n i n g a n d y o u ’l l k n o w t h a t i n f o r m a t io n .

T h e d e c is io n a b o u t

s a f e t y is m o r e t a c ti c a l w h e r e w e ’l l m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n a l m o s t o n t h e
fl y i n g t o d e c i d e , th e r u n w a y is c le a r t h a t a ir c r a f t c a n g o n o w, if a n
a ir c r a f t r e q u ir e s t o c l i m b o r d e s c e n d t h e c o n tr o ll e r w i ll m a k e t h a t
20

d e c is i o n b a s e d o n a v a i l a b l e i n f o r m a ti o n a t t h e ti m e a s r a t h e r ta c tic a l
o p e r a ti o n m o r e t h a n a s tr a t e g i c w a y o f d o in g th i n g s .

I hope that

answers your question?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja you did ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u c o u l d y o u e x p l a i n t o t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t i s m e a n t b y s a y i n g , a n a ir c r a ft h a s e n t e r e d S o u th

Page 59 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A fr ic a n a ir s p a c e a n d y o u ’v e g i v e n u s s o m e v i d e o s y o u c a n ju s t s h o w
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u w a n t u s – y o u ’ ll i n d ic a t e w h ic h v i d e o y o u w a n t
p l a y e d j u s t t o s h o w – b e c a u s e t h e is s u e is , th e r e h a s t o b e s o m e
p e r m it s b e f o r e a n y o n e f li e s i n t o o u r a ir s p a c e a n d w h e r e is th a t , c o u l d
y o u j u s t d e a l w i t h th o s e a s p e c t s .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e fo r e h e d o e s s o , le t m e g o b a c k to th e

a n s w e r t h a t y o u g a v e t o m y q u e s t io n , y o u s a i d o n e o f t h e t h i n g s y o u
h a v e t o s e e t o w h e n y o u h a v e r e c e i v e d a fl ig h t p l a n , is c a p a c i ty. C a n
y o u te ll m e m o r e i n t e r m s o f c a p a c i ty fo r w h e r e t o d o w h a t , d o e s t h a t
10

r e l a t e to , a r e t h e e n o u g h p il o ts t o g o in t o t h a t a ir c r a f t, a r e t h e r e
e n o u g h h o s t e s s e s to g o – o r is i t a b o u t t h e g r o u n d s t a ff, w h e r e d o e s
t h e c a p a c i ty t h a t f a l ls u n d e r y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty – w h e r e is it lo c a t e d ?
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

J u d g e i t ’s r e a ll y a b o u t t h e

c a p a c i ty o f t h e a ir s p a c e a n d w h e r e w e c a n g e t tr a ffi c to f ly o r n o t. W e
h a v e d e c la r e d c a p a c i t ie s fo r e a c h o n e o f t h e a ir p o r t s w h e r e w e d e l iv e r
a s e r v ic e .

S o f o r e x a m p l e if y o u ’r e g o i n g t o fly i n t o O R Ta m b o , w e

h a v e d e c l a r e d a c a p a c i ty o f 5 0 a ir tr a ffic m o v e m e n ts fo r t h e h o u r, w il l
y o u r m o v e m e n t e x c e e d th e 5 0 o r w i ll i t b e w i t h i n o u r c a p a c i t y li m i ts .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , t h a t ’s a i r c r a ft in t h e s p a c e d u r i n g a p a r ti c u l a r

hour?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct.

Ye s y o u d o n ’ t w a n t t o h a v e m o r e t h a n X n u m b e r o f

a ir c r a f t s a t th e s a m e ti m e m o r e o r l e s s i n t h e s a m e s p a c e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

T h a t is c o r r e c t, b e c a u s e i t

in fl u e n c e s s a f e t y fo r o n e a n d s e c o n d l y i f y o u e x c e e d y o u r c a p a c i ty,

Page 60 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
s o m e tr a ff ic w i ll h a v e t o h o ld a n d th a t w i ll i m p l y t h a t w e w i ll h a v e
a ir c r a f t b u r n i n g o ff – u n n e c e s s a r i ly b u r n i n g o ff f u e l a n d o f c o u r s e t h e n
o m is s io n s i n t o th e a t m o s p h e r e . T h e f u e l b u r n s is t h e t h i n g t h a t c o s ts
t h e a ir l in e t h e m o n e y s o w e t r y a n d b a l a n c e th e c a p a c i t y s o w e d o n ’ t s i t
w i t h a ir c r a f t i n h o l d i n g s ta c k s o r b u r n i n g o ff fu e l u n n e c e s s a r il y o n
e x t e n d e d r o u t in g s b e c a u s e w e ’r e s tr u g g l i n g t o fi t y o u i n to o u r c a p a c i ty
li m i ta t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Th a n k y o u a n d w o u l d t h a t h a p p e n

s o m e t i m e s w h e n o n e fl ie s y o u w o u l d h e a r t h a t w e ’v e b e e n t o l d – t h e
p i lo t w il l s a y, w e h a v e j u s t b e e n t o ld t o c ir c l e a r o u n d b e c a u s e th e r e ’s
n o s p a c e to p a r k , s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t , w o u l d t h a t r e l a t e to t h a t a s w e ll ?
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

I t c o n s i d e r s t h e a ir p o r t c a p a c i ty

f o r e x a m p le p a r k i n g a s y o u s a i d m a d a m , b u t i t a l s o c o n s i d e r s th e
r u n w a y c a p a c i ty a n d h o w m a n y a i r c r a f t w e c a n g e t t h r o u g h th e r u n w a y
in a n h o u r o r a s p e c if ic p e r i o d o f t i m e a n d a l s o t h e s p a c in g w e u s e
b e t w e e n a ir c r a f t w h e n w e s e q u e n c e t h e m i n t o th e r u n w a y s a n d o u t o f
t h e r u n w a y s o n d e p a r tu r e b e c a u s e w e n e e d t o m ix t h e a m o u n t o f
la n d i n g s a n d th e a m o u n t o f d e p a r tu r e s a n d fi n d t h a t b a la n c e . S o i f w e
20

h a v e l e s s d e p a r t u r e s fo r th is h o u r w e c a n h a n d l e m o r e a r r i v a ls , a n d
v ic e v e r s a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , c a n w e g o b a c k t o t h e e a r li e r
q u e s t io n th e n , y o u h a v e a n a ir c r a f t f ly i n g fr o m I n d ir a G a n d h i A ir p o r t
fr o m I n d i a c o m in g in t o th e S o u t h A f r i c a n a i r s p a c e , h o w d o y o u d e a l w i t h
t h a t s i t u a t io n , w h a t i s i t t h a t y o u n e e d o t h e r th a n th e fl i g h t p l a n th a t

Page 61 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
y o u ’v e ju s t m e n ti o n e d ?
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

A s y o u ’v e c o r r e c tly s a i d w e ’l l b a s e

o u r s e r v ic e o n f li g h t p l a n . S o t h e f li g h t p la n w i ll b e t h e e a r ly w a r n i n g
w e r e c e iv e d t h a t t h e a i r c r a ft is o n i t’s w a y t o S o u t h A fr i c a , w h ic h e v e r
a ir p o r t a n d t h e n t h e a ir s p a c e s e c to r b e fo r e u s w il l c o o r d in a te t h a t f li g h t
w i t h u s . S o t h e f li g h t – w e ’l l h a v e a f li g h t p l a n f o r e x a m p l e fr o m In d ir a
G a n d h i , w e w i ll t h e n r e c e i v e a n o ti fi c a t io n fr o m t h a t a ir p o r t o r t h a t a ir
tr a ffic c o n tr o l c e n t r e r a th e r, t h a t t h e tr a ff ic h a s d e p a r te d a n d w e c a l l
t h a t a d e p a r tu r e m e s s a g e . S o i t i s – h e to ld y o u h e ’s c o m in g , h e ’s n o w
10

a ir b o r n e a n d w e k n o w t h e a ir c r a f t i s f ly i n g , th a t ’s f o r s e a r c h a n d r e s c u e
p u r p o s e s . S o w h e n t h a t a i r c r a ft t h e n tr a n s i ts a c r o s s t h e I n d i a n O c e a n ,
it w i ll e v e n t u a ll y, in th is e x a m p l e e n te r t h e M o z a m b i q u e a i r s p a c e to t h e
E a s t o f u s a n d t h e M o z a m b i q u e n a v i g a t io n s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w ill c o n t a c t
o u r c o n tr o l c e n tr e – o r w e c a l l i t a J o h a n n e s b u r g c o n t r o l c e n tr e , b a s e d
a t O R Ta m b o , w i ll c o n t a c t th a t a i r tr a ffi c c o n tr o l c e n t r e a n d p a s s t h e
tr a ffic in f o r m a t io n a b o u t w h e n th a t a ir c r a f t w il l e n te r o u r a ir s p a c e , a t
w h ic h p o in t a n d a t w h ic h fli g h t l e v e l o r a l t it u d e a n d t h a t w e c a l l
c o o r d i n a t io n .

S o t h e y w il l c o o r d in a t e t h e fli g h t w i th u s , r e a d u s t h e

in f o r m a ti o n a n d w e ’l l r e a d t h a t b a c k t o t h e m to c o n fir m t h a t w e ’v e
20

c o r r e c t ly r e c e i v e d i t , it ’s a ll a b o u t c h e c k a n d b a l a n c e a n d t h e n w h e n
t h e a i r c r a ft a r r iv e s a t t h e a ir s p a c e b o u n d a r y i t w i ll b e a tr a n s fe r o f
c o n tr o l

between

the

Mozambique

air

tr a ffi c

c o n tr o ll e r

and

th e

J o h a n n e s b u r g a ir tr a ffi c c o n tr o l le r a n d t h a t tr a ffic w i ll t h e n c a l l u s u p
o n a fr e q u e n c y a n d w e w i ll i s s u e , w h a t w e c a l l a n i n b o u n d c l e a r a n c e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , n o w b e fo r e y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t , c a n

Page 62 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
y o u j u s t s h o w u s o n t h e v i d e o s a s to w h e r e th a t e n tr y is m a d e , w e a r e
d e a li n g w it h th is o n e a ir c r a f t fr o m I n d ir a G a n d h i in t o S o u t h A fr ic a .
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ye s I t h i n k y o u c a n j u s t s h o w

v id e o o n e a n d i f i t c a n j u s t b e o n s t il l t h e n it ’s f a r e a s i e r to e x p l a i n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u , w e d o n ’ t h a v e to p l a y t h e

w h o le v i d e o b u t j u s t f o r y o u t o d e m o n s tr a t e f o r u s .
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

I s it p o s s i b l e t o e n l a r g e t h a t a

li t tl e b i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C a n y o u e n la r g e i t . O k a y n o th e y s a y i t’s
10

n o t p o s s ib le b e c a u s e i t’s a v id e o .
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S :

O k a y s o t h e p a l e g r e y w h ic h y o u

s e e o n t h e s c r e e n is S o u t h A f r i c a n a ir s p a c e , th e d a r k e r g r e y s h a d e i s
t h e a ir s p a c e to t h e E a s t a n d N o r t h E a s t , r ig h t o ff to t h e E a s t t h e r e
w h e r e t h e c u r s o r is n o w, is M o z a m b iq u e a ir s p a c e a n d t o t h e N o r th w il l
b e Zi m b a b w e , a b o v e t h a t li t tl e w h i t e li n e w i t h t h e l it t l e j i g g e r e d p o in t i n
it . T h e a ir s p a c e a t t h e b o t t o m o f th a t , th e c ir c le w i th t w o s m a ll s tr a ig h t
li n e s

and

a

smaller

c ir c l e ,

t h a t’s

th e

Hoedspruit

M i li t a r y

a ir s p a c e … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, h e ’s n o t fo ll o w i n g w i th t h e c u r s o r, c a n y o u
20

not…(intervention).
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Can the witness be moved.
CHAIRPERSON:

To m o v e i t .

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s m a y b e … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u c a n g iv e i t t o – o h y o u c a n ’ t ta k e i t t o h i m .

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

W e ll i f h e m o v e s th e c u r s o r I ’l l

Page 63 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
s p e a k t o h i m w h e r e t h e c u r s o r is .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y j u s t lis t e n to h i m w h e n h e t e l ls y o u w h e r e t o

move the cursor to.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

O k a y, s o w h e r e th e l i tt l e p o i n t e r is .

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

S o b e l o w, i f y o u m o v e t h e p o in t e r

t o th e S o u th , d o w n , s l ig h tl y l e f t th a t a ir s p a c e i s th e H o e d s p r u i t M i li t a r y
a ir s p a c e , c o n tr o ll e d a ir s p a c e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t a ir s p a c e i s t h a t?
10

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ai r f o r c e b a s e H o e d s p r u it .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

A n d y o u s e e t h e l in e s r u n n i n g

t h r o u g h th a t a ir s p a c e , i n t h e d a r k e r s h a d e , v e r y d a r k g r e y, n o b e l o w
t h a t , th e y r u n d ia g o n a lly a c r o s s th e s c r e e n , th o s e l in e s … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e a b o u t t h r e e l i n e s , is t h a t w h a t y o u ’r e t a lk i n g

a b o u t.
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S :

C o r r e c t j a , th r e e li n e s th e y a l m o s t

jo in u p i n th e E a s t a n d t h e n s p l i t u p in t o a f o r k r u n n in g d o w n t o w a r d s
t h e S o u th W e s t.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w h a t i s t h a t?

MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

T hose are what we call R&F

r o u t e s , it is a r e a n a v i g a t i o n s … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t t h e r o a d f o r t h e a ir c r a f t s .

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct yes.

S o t h a t i s t h e tr a c k t h a t t h e a i r c r a f t w i ll f ly

Page 64 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
d e p e n d in g

upon

where

they

are

bound.

So

if

you

then

go

t o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o j u s t f o r my o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g , s o a n a i r c r a ft

c a n ’ t j u s t f ly a n y w h e r e i t’s g o t t o f o l lo w c e r t a i n – i t m u s t b e o n th e r o a d
in q u o te s , it m u s t b e o n a c e r t a in r o a d , i t c a n ’t ju s t fl y a n y w h e r e j u s t
b e c a u s e i t c a n f ly ?
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

C o r r e c t b e c a u s e t h a t ’s a l s o h o w

w e d o t h e c a p a c i ty p l a n n i n g a n d m o v i n g t h e tr a ffic w i t h o u t h a v in g to o
m a n y o f th e m c o n f lic t w i t h e a c h o t h e r b e i n g h e a d o n f o r e x a m p le ,
10

c li m b i n g a n d d e s c e n d in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .

MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

So then if you move the cursor to

t h e a l m o s t m i d d l e th e r e , w h e r e y o u w e r e , m o r e to t h e le f t , a n d d o w n ,
t h a t i s a p i e c e o f a ir s p a c e s u r r o u n d i n g P o lo k w a n e , t h a t i s t h e
P o lo k w a n e a ir p o r t w it h i t ’s a ir s p a c e a r o u n d c o n tr o l le d a ir s p a c e i t
p r o v i d e s a s e r v ic e th e r e a n d i f y o u g o s li g h t ly a b o v e t h a t a n d u p , th a t
is t h e a ir s p a c e a t ( in d is ti n c t) a t t h e a ir f o r c e b a s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a v e y o u t o l d u s a b o u t t h r e e a ir s p a c e s n o w ?

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h r e e d i ff e r e n t p i e c e s o f a ir s p a c e .

Ye s th e o n e – t h e f ir s t o n e w a s r i g h t o n t h e S o u t h ,

t h a t o n e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

N o w w h e n y o u s a y a ir s p a c e in th a t c o n t e x t, w h a t ’s

t h e f u n c t i o n o f t h a t a ir s p a c e , w h a t p u r p o s e d o e s it s e r v e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

O k a y s o e a c h p i e c e o f a ir s p a c e is

Page 65 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
d e s i g n e d a r o u n d th e a ir p o r t a n d t h e t y p e o f tr a ffic i t s e r v ic e s . T h a t is a
t e r m in a l a ir s p a c e , I’v e j u s t r e fe r r e d t o , t h e o n e a t H o e d s p r u i t s o t h a t
w i ll m a n a g e t h e tr a ffi c i n a n d o u t o f a ir fo r c e b a s e H o e d s p r u i t a n d t h a t
w i ll b e m i li t a r y a n d – I fi n a l ly g a i n e d s o m e c o n tr o l .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o th e p u r p o s e o f t h e a ir s p a c e th a t w e a r e

t a lk in g a b o u t – w e l l l e t m e f ir s t c h e c k , i t w o u l d b e a r o u n d a n a ir p o r t ,
a ir s p a c e .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s c o r r e c t .

I t w ill a l w a y s b e a r o u n d a n a i r p o r t n o t j u s t o u t o f

anywhere?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

It c a n b e b o t h .

It can be both.

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

S o r r y le t m e – p e r h a p s I s h o u ld

tr y t o e x p la i n m o r e …( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , I ju s t w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d th e i m p o r t a n c e

o f t h o s e t h r e e a ir s p a c e s o r a ir s p a c e s i n g e n e r a l .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Th e y a r e th e r e t o p r o t e c t , r e a l ly

t h e m il it a r y a r o u n d H o e d s p r u i t a n d t h e c iv i li a n tr a ffic , th e o n e d o w n
h e r e w h e r e th e p o in t e r is a t t h e m o m e n t , s o t h e r e w i ll b e a p ie c e o f
20

a ir s p a c e o n t h e g r o u n d , t o u c h i n g t h e g r o u n d u p t o a l i m i t a b o v e t h e
g r o u n d a n d w i t h d e f in e d h o r iz o n t a l li m i t s a n d t h a t ’s t h e r e s o y o u c a n
p r o t e c t o r t h e a i r f o r c e i n t h i s c a s e t h e r u n w a y a n d t h e t r a ff ic f ly i n g
a r o u n d H o e d s p r u i t a ir f o r c e b a s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t ’s m e a n t to m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u k n o w th e r e

a r e n ’ t to o m a n y a i r c r a f ts c o m i n g w it h in t h e s p a c e o r c o m in g t o o c l o s e

Page 66 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
t o t h e a ir p o r t w h e n i t m i g h t n o t b e r i g h t t o d o s o f o r s a f e ty r e a s o n s ?
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

T h a t is tr u e a n d a ls o fo r t h e a ir

tr a ffic c o n tr o ll e r to h a v e a n a r e a o f ju r is d ic t io n w i t h i n w h i c h th e y c a n
is s u e t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s to e n s u r e t h e s a f e ty o f t h e tr a ff ic .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b e y o n d th a t a ir s p a c e t h e n , t h e a i r c o n t r o ll e r

d o e s n ’t is s u e a n y in s t r u c t i o n s ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

B u t w h e n t h e a ir c r a ft e n t e r s t h a t s p a c e , t h a t

a ir s p a c e th e n th e y c a n g e t i n s tr u c t io n s fr o m t h e a ir c o n tr o ll e r ?
10

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct.

O k a y, t h a n k y o u a n d t h e i n s tr u c t io n s fr o m th e a ir

c o n tr o ll e r c o u l d in c l u d e t h e in s tr u c ti o n t h a t y o u m a y l a n d o r d o n ’ t l a n d ,
o r n o t r e a ll y ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

I n te r m s o f th e r u n w a y b e i n g c l e a r

t o l a n d a n d s a fe , i t d o e s i n c l u d e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay thank you.

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

B u t i n te r ms o f a n a p p r o v a l t o l a n d

it a t a n a ir p o r t, t h a t ’s n o t t h e a ir t r a ff ic c o n tr o l le r ’s … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Th a t ’s g e n e r a l ?

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct.

J a a n d t h e n th e a ir c o n tr o ll e r r e la t e s t o th e s p e c i fic

a n d th e a c t u a l t i m e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Okay thank you.

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

S o t h is is th e te r mi n a l a i r s p a c e

Page 67 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
a r o u n d a i r f o r c e b a s e H o e d s p r u it i n w h i c h t h e y w il l m a n o e u v r e t h e
tr a ffic i n a n d o u t o f t h e a ir p o r t r o u ti n g t o o th e r a ir p o r t s o r i n a n d o u t o f
h e r e b e c a u s e t h e r e w i ll b e m ili t a r y tr a in in g . T h e s a m e p u r p o s e w i ll b e
s e r v e d b y t h is a ir s p a c e u p h e r e t o th e N o r th a r o u n d M a k a r u a n d t h is
a ir s p a c e h e r e i s a t P o l o k w a n e a s I ’v e i n d ic a t e d a n d th a t is r e a l ly f o r
c iv ili a n tr a ff ic w h e r e t h e o t h e r t w o a r e p r e d o m i n a n t ly f o r m il i ta r y tr a ff ic
w i t h s o m e c i v i li a n tr a ff ic i n c lu d e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay thank you.
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S :
10

T h e la r g e g r e y a ir s p a c e r u n n in g

fr o m d o w n th a t l in e th a t I’ m f o l l o w i n g w i t h t h e c u r s o r … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e th a t , y o u s a i d t h a t th e s e a ir s p a c e s c a n b e

b o t h a r o u n d a n a ir p o r t a n d n o t a r o u n d a n a ir p o r t , n o w I c a n u n d e r s t a n d
w h e n t h e y a r e a r o u n d a n a ir p o r t , w h e n t h e y a r e n o t a r o u n d a n a i r p o r t
u n d e r w h a t c i r c u ms t a n c e s w o u l d y o u h a v e t h e m a w a y fr o m a n a i r p o r t ?
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

I’ m g o i n g t o a s k y o u to v is u a l is e a

s e t o f ti n s , c a k e ti n s . S o t h e lo w e r a ir s p a c e o r th e c o n tr o l z o n e w il l b e
t o u c h in g o n t h e s u r fa c e a n d i t w il l b e a s m a ll e r ti n .

The terminal

a ir s p a c e a b o v e t h a t w i ll b e a s li g h t ly la r g e r ti n o n to p o f t h a t a n d t h e n
a n o t h e r a ir s p a c e o n t o p .
20

So

I’ v e s p o k e n a b o u t c o n tr o l z o n e a n d

t e r m in a l a ir s p a c e a n d t h e n w e g e t w h a t w e c a ll c o n tr o l a r e a s a n d th o s e
a r e l a r g e p i e c e s o f a ir s p a c e a n d t h a t w ill ta k e c a r e o f u p p e r f li g h t
le v e ls a n d t h o s e a r e n o t n e c e s s a r il y in t h e v i c i n i t y o f a n a ir p o r t . S o w e
w i ll h a v e a c o n tr o l a r e a w h ic h w i ll c o v e r th e e n t ir e a ir s p a c e o v e r
G a u t e n g fo r e x a m p le a n d Fr e e S t a t e a n d j o i n i n g o n t o a c o n tr o l a r e a fo r
C a p e To w n a n d t h e r e a r e n o a ir p o r t s b e l o w t h a t , o th e r th a n s o m e

Page 68 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
s m a ll e r p r iv a t e a ir p o r ts fo r e x a m p le , o r a ir f ie ld s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

N o w y o u a ls o h a v e c o n tr o l z o n e s

s i tt i n g o v e r la r g e p i e c e s o f a ir s p a c e w h e r e w e c o n tr o l a i r t r a ff ic in t h e
la s t p a r t o f t h e c l i m b , t h e c r u i s e a n d t h e fi r s t p a r t o f t h e d e c e n t a n d i t’s
n o t in t h e v ic in i ty o f a n a ir p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d w h e r e w o u ld th e W a te r k l o o f a r e a b e
there?
10

M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S :

I t’s o ff to t h e W e s t a n d w e c a n

s e e t h a t o n th e n e x t v i d e o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n th e n e x t v i d e o ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ye s a n d I t h in k w e c a n g o t o

number two, do you need your mouse?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O h I’ m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u m o v e m a y b e t o

t h a t a r e y o u fi n i s h e d o n th is s li d e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s I a m .

O k a y y o u w e r e s til l d e m o n s t r a t in g t h e

la r g e p a r t , b e f o r e y o u g o t o t h a t o n e .
20

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

The large grey part by and large, I

m e a n w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o s e e t h e v i d e o , I t h i n k w e c a n r e m e m b e r, is w h a t
is c a l le d m il i ta r y tr a i n i n g a r e a , i t ’s a r e s tr ic t e d a i r s p a c e , p u b lis h e d
p r e d o m i n a n tl y f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f m il it a r y tr a i n i n g f li g h t s .

H o w e v e r,

s in c e

have

th e y

don’t

use

th a t

airspace

c o n ti n u o u s ly,

we

an

a r r a n g e m e n t w it h th e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir F o r c e c a l le d fl e x ib le u s e o f

Page 69 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
a ir s p a c e , w h e r e , w h e n t h e y a r e n o t o c c u p y i n g th a t a ir s p a c e w e c a n
is s u e r o u te s f o r c iv il ia n tr a ffic t h r o u g h th a t a ir s p a c e a n d i t j u s t
o p t i m is e s t h e r o u ti n g a n d i t c a n o f c o u r s e r e s u lt i n s o m e f u e l a n d t i m e
s a v in g s f o r th e o p e r a t o r s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Okay the second one, do you want us to

move to the second one?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ye s p le a s e .

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , th a t’s t h e s e c o n d v id e o , is t h a t
t h e o n e , m a y b e p la y t h e v i d e o a n d s e e .
10

MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

O k a y y o u c a n c l o s e t h a t v i d e o , is

t h is t h e s e c o n d v i d e o .
T E C H N IC I A N : Ye s .
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

S o w h a t w e w il l s e e , a n d

u n f o r t u n a t e ly I’ v e g o t a b i t o f d is t a n c e p r o b l e m h e r e th e b l a c k ta r g e t
s i tt i n g o v e r t h e r e , w o u ld h a v e e n te r e d th e S o u th A fr ic a n a ir s p a c e h e r e
a t a p o s i ti o n c a l le d

E P S E C a n d th a t w a s th e p o s i ti o n c o o r d in a t e d b y

t h e M o z a m b ic a n a n d n a v ig a ti o n s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r a n d t h e tr a ffic i s t h e n
e n t e r in g t h e a ir s p a c e h e r e , b u t I c a n n o t s e e t h e r e b u t

c o n f ir m th a t ,

t h a t s a y s D A I 9 9 0 0 t h a t is J e t A i r w a y s 9 9 0 0 t h e fl ig h t in b o u n d fr o m
20

I n d ir a G h a n d i t o Wa t e r k l o o f .

A t t h e m o m e n t i t i s s h o w i n g th e

in f o r m a ti o n a s y o u c a n s e e t h e r e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d , I’ m w o n d e r i n g w h e th e r i f fo r th e
d u r a t io n o f t h e t i m e h e w a s g o in g t o b e s h o w i n g u s th a t , w h e t h e r, i f h e
s a t c l o s e r t h e r e w o u ld b e a n y p r o b l e m w i t h th e tr a n s c r ip t ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s M r C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e h e is fo r th e

Page 70 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
w i t n e s s , I t h i n k th e y w i ll h a v e a d i ffic u lt y b u t ( i n d is ti n c t) h a s j u s t
s u g g e s t e d th a t m a y b e , i f th e w i t n e s s c o u ld u s e th e o n e b u t t h e n t h e
( in d is ti n c t) w il l n o t b e a b l e t o s e e b u t if y o u p o i n t t h e r e to p o in t o n t h is
o n e . Ye s , t h a n k y o u , b u t th e n w e ’ll b e a b l e t o s e e is it ?
CHAIRPERSON:

J a t h o s e w h o c a n lo o k a t th a t o n e , c a n lo o k a t t h a t

one, you can look at this one.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

S o th a t ’s th e n w h e r e t h e fl ig h t

e n t e r e d t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n a ir s p a c e h e w o u l d h a v e o b t a i n e d a n in b o u n d
10

c le a r a n c e f r o m t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g c o n tr o ll e r …( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I’ m s o r r y, w h e n y o u a r e u s i n g th a t o n e , th e m o u s e
c a n ’ t g o t h e r e b u t it c a n s h o w u s o n t h a t s i d e .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Fl ig h t o v e r t h e r e .

CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay yes.
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:
in b o u n d

fr o m

I n d ir a

Ghandi

to

I s t h e n a t t h a t s p e c i f ic f li g h t ,
W a t e r k lo o f

as

per

the

fl ig h t

p l a n …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t m e ju s t u n d e r s ta n d a g a i n , j u s t r e m in d m e t h e
D a k a r p o r t io n o u t s i d e t h a t l ig h t g r e y i s h – la r g e l ig h t g r e y i s h a r e a , j a
20

w h e r e th e m o u s e is , w h a t i s t h a t?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

T h a t ’s t h e M o z a m b i q u e a ir s p a c e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t ’s M o z a m b i c a n a i r s p a c e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct.

O h o k a y a n d th e n w h e r e y o u h a v e t h e b o r d e r – k i n d

o f b o r d e r l in e a n d y o u t h e n h a v e a l i g h t e r g r e y a r e a , j a th e r e , t h a t’s t h e

Page 71 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
b e g in n i n g o f S o u th A fr ic a n a ir s p a c e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct Judge.

O k a y a n d t h e n t h e th r e e a ir s p a c e s w e w e r e t a lk i n g

a b o u t a r e i n e ffe c t a i r s p a c e s w i th in S o u t h A fr ic a n l a r g e r a i r s p a c e ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct.

O k a y a n d t h e n t h a t li n e , i f y o u g o u p , y e s o n th e

r ig h t , t h a t li n e w h a t is t h a t , i s t h a t a r o u te a s I s a id , a r o a d f o r a n
a ir c r a f t , i s t h a t a n a ir r o u t e o r w h a t?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
10

N o C h a ir m a n , t h a t is t h e a ir s p a c e

boundary between Mozambique and Zimbabwe.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, t h a n k y o u , n o w I u n d e r s t a n d o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u , y o u w e r e p o i n ti n g o u t t h e

Wa t e r k l o o f , w h e r e is t h a t ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

W a t e r k lo o f is o ff to t h is s id e w e

w i ll n e e d t o – t h is is w h e r e t h e a i r c r a ft i n it ia ll y c o m e s i n a n d w h e n w e
g o to t h e th ir d r e c o r d in g I w i ll b e a b l e t o s h o w y o u th e J o h a n n e s b u r g
a n d Wa t e r k l o o f a ir s p a c e , s o w e c a n p r o g r e s s t o th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To t h e n e x t o n e , t h a n k y o u .
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
20

S o h e r e w e w ill s e e – I ’ m g o i n g t o

tr y a n d m o v e m y m ic r o p h o n e a l i t tl e b i t.

D o y o u s e e t h e li t t le w h i t e

fl a s h e s o n t h e s c r e e n , th a t is j u s t h o w t h e a ir tr a ff ic c o n tr o l le r is
in t e r a c ti n g w i th t h e ir e l e c tr o n i c d a t a o n t h e a ir c r a f t a s t h e y ’r e is s u in g
in s t r u c t i o n s a n d c h a n g in g fl i g h t le v e ls a n d h e a d i n g s f o r e x a m p l e a n d I
t h i n k w e ’r e b e s t o ff i f y o u ’ d lik e t o p a u s e t h i s p l e a s e , t h a n k y o u ?

So

y o u ’ ll s e e tr a ffic f ly i n g i n a n d o u t o f O R Ta m b o o v e r h e r e , t h e N o r t h

Page 72 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
b o u n d r u n w a y i s in u s e , r u n w a y 0 3 , tr a ff ic d e p a r t in g o ff th e W e s t e r n
r u n w a y a n d l a n d i n g o n th e E a s te r n r u n w a y, r u n w a y 0 3 r i g h t . Th is is t h e
c o n tr o l z o n e , t h e li n e s h e r e , a r o u n d O R Ta m b o , t h i s li t tl e p ie c e o f
a ir s p a c e h e r e i s a ir f o r c e b a s e S w a r tk o p a ir s p a c e a n d t h is h e r e i s th e
Wa t e r k l o o f c o n tr o l z o n e w i t h th e e n t ir e a ir s p a c e , w h e r e t h e c u r s o r is
g o i n g a r o u n d n o w, t h e r e b e i n g t h e Wa t e r k l o o f te r m i n a l c o n tr o l a ir s p a c e
a n d th is r a c e c o u r s e h e r e i f v a n d e r H o o g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s w h o c o n t r o ls t h e W a te r k l o o f a ir s p a c e ?
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S :
10

T h e W a te r k l o o f a ir s p a c e i s

a s s ig n e d t o th e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir F o r c e b u t a g a i n b y a r r a n g e m e n t o f t h e
fl e x ib l e u s e o f a ir s p a c e , w e c o n tr o l i t m o s t o f t h e ti m e fr o m O R Ta m b o
u n d e r t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g a p p r o a c h c o n t r o l s e r v ic e , to o p t i m is e t h e
r o u t e s i n a n d o u t o f O R Ta m b o b e c a u s e a s y o u c a n s e e t h o s e a ir s p a c e s
a n d t h e a i r p o r ts a r e q u it e c l o s e t o g e t h e r a n d O R Ta m b o b e i n g th e
b u s i e r, w e c a n b e n e f i t fr o m u s i n g t h e m il i t a r y a ir s p a c e a n d s h o u l d t h e r e
b e m i li t a r y r e q u ir e m e n t , w e w il l g iv e i t b a c k t o t h e m il i ta r y a n d t h e y w i ll
r e tu r n i t to u s w h e n t h e y a r e c o m p le t e d w it h t h a t a n d w e c a n o p t i m is e
t h e c iv il ia n tr a ffic t h r o u g h t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y th a n k y o u , is t h e r e a n y t h in g e l s e y o u

20

w a n t to s h o w t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o n th a t c h a r t ?
M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

N o i t ’s n o t n e c e s s a r y, it ’s j u s t t h a t

w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e i n fo r m a t i o n h e r e fr o m a n i n te r e s t p o i n t o f v i e w,
y o u ’ ll s e e t h a t , t h a t’s t h e a i r c r a f t’s c a ll- s i g n s o th a t w il l b e c o u p l e d t o
t h e fl i g h t p l a n , t h e b a s e w e h a v e o n th e f li g h t p l a n a n d t h e r a d a r d a t a
w h ic h w e r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e a ir c r a f t tr a n s p o n d e r a n d t h e n b e l o w t h a t w e

Page 73 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
h a v e t h e fl ig h t le v e l o f t h e a ir c r a f t , t h e s p e e d a n d th e d e s ti n a t i o n o r t h e
n e x t n a v i g a t io n p o i n t i t is p r o c e e d i n g t o , a n th a t in f o r m a t io n w i ll b e
d is p la y e d f o r a n y a ir c r a f t t h a t w e h a v e a fl ig h t p l a n a n d i t h a s a
tr a n s p o n d e r o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
MR HENDRIK JACOBUS MARAIS:

J u s t p e r h a p s b e fo r e y o u g o , t h e

Wa t e r k l o o f r u n w a y h e r e is r u n w a y s 0 1 a n d 1 9 , t h e y o n l y h a v e t h e o n e
runway that they use for operations.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Th a n k y o u , t h e n le t ’s d e a l w i t h th e fl i g h t

p l a n s a n d t h e y o u m u s t ju s t d e m o n s tr a te t h e m t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , w h a t
in f o r m a ti o n i s r e q u ir e d fo r a fl i g h t p l a n a n d y o u ’ v e p u t u p th e t h r e e
fl ig h t p la n s th a t t h is p a r t ic u l a r a ir c r a f t w h ic h w e ’r e d e a l i n g w i th fr o m
I n d ir a G h a n d i , w h a t p l a n s w e r e p u t u p a n d w h y, a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r
u n d e r s t a n d in g . I k n o w w e ’v e j u m p e d a b i t b u t w e ’l l g o b a c k to t h e o t h e r
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u ’v e p u t u p i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t b u t I t h i n k b e c a u s e i t ’s
n e a tl y li n k e d t o w h a t y o u ’ v e j u s t d e m o n s t r a te d , i f y o u c o l d g o t o p a g e
18.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

I h a v e a r r iv e d t h e r e .

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

M R H E N D R IK J A C O B U S M A R A I S :

S o w h a t is i n t h e s ta t e m e n t is

r e a l ly a s c r e e n s h o t o f t h e f li g h t p l a n w e w o u l d h a v e r e c e iv e d fr o m - o r
f o r a f li g h t J A I 9 9 0 0 is a J e t A ir w a y s c h a r t e r a n d I’ ll q u i c k l y s p e a k y o u
t h r o u g h w a y s o n t h e s c r e e n s h o t , i t is a g a i n , o f c o u r s e a l l i n c o d e
b e c a u s e th e r e ’s a l i m i te d a m o u n t o f c h a r a c t e r s w e c a n tr a n s m i t i n t h i s
m e s s a g e t y p e s o y o u n e e d to m a x i m is e e a c h c h a r a c te r t h a t y o u u s e .

Page 74 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
S o a t t h e t o p y o u ’l l s e e tw o l e t t e r s , F F a n d th e n t e x t f o ll o w e d b y
FAJ A Z Q a n d FA J AY F, e tc e t e r a , th a t w il l b e w h e r e t h e f li g h t p l a n w a s
a d d r e s s e d to a n d t h e F F i s t h e p r io r i ty a s s ig n e d t o t h e f li g h t p l a n .
S i n c e t h e r e w il l b e t e n h o u r s e l a p s e d b e t w e e n t h e fl i g h t t a k i n g o ff a n d
la n d i n g a t i ts d e s ti n a t i o n t h e r e i s n o n e e d t o e x p e d i t e a tr a n s m is s io n s o
it w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a h i g h p r i o r i ty a s s u c h a s a n e m e r g e n c y
m e s s a g e fo r e x a m p le .

T h e n i t w i ll s a y t h e l e t t e r s F PL w h i c h i s t h e

Fl i g h t P l a n n e x t t o th a t i s th e a ir c r a f t ’s c a ll s i g n a n d w h il e I a m
s p e a k i n g a b o u t c a l l s ig n w h e n I g e t to t h e n e x t f ie l d s a t th e b o t t o m
10

t h e r e w il l b e t h e a ir c r a f t ’s r e g i s tr a t i o n .

S o t h e a ir c r a f t w il l b e

r e g is t e r e d a g a i n s t a c e r t a in s e t o f n u m b e r s o r l e tt e r s d e p e n d in g o n th e
c o u n tr y o f o r ig in a n d t h e n t h e r e w il l b e a c a l l s ig n w h ic h i s w h a t th e
a ir c r a f t w il l c a ll i ts e l f w h e n i t c o m m u n i c a t e s t o A ir Tr a ff ic C o n t r o l . S o
t h e c a l l s ig n h e r e i s J e t A ir w a y s 9 9 0 0 y e t t h e r e g is tr a ti o n w h e n y o u g o
d o w n t o t h e b o t to m w i ll j u s t b e fiv e l e t t e r s w h ic h Vic t o r Ta n g o J u li e t
W h i s k e y G o l f . N e x t to …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e c a ll s i g n w ill b e li k e h o w t h e y w il l i d e n t i fy

t h e m s e l v e s t o y o u w h e n t h e y a r e a p p r o a c h in g o r s o m e t h in g l ik e th a t?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : S o fo r e x a m p le S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir w a y s w i ll u s e
a c a ll s i g n S p r i n g b o k
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S :

T h e B r i t is h A ir w a y s w i ll u s e S p e e d b i r d

f o ll o w e d b y a s e t o f n u m b e r s .

Page 75 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . A n d t h e c h o i c e o f t h e c a ll s ig n h a s i t g o t

a n y th in g t o d o w i th s a f e ty a n d i n t e ll ig e n c e o r it is j u s t t h e ir c h o ic e
w h a t e v e r w o r d y o u d e c id e to u s e ?
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S : T h e n a m e i s p ic k e d b y th e a ir li n e a n d i t i s th e n
r e g is t e r e d w it h th e I n t e r n a ti o n a l C iv i l Av i a t io n O r g a n is a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : A s a t h r e e le t t e r d e s i g n a t o r a n d w h a t c a ll s i g n
a c c o m p a n i e s th a t c o d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

MR HENDRIK MARAIS:

N u m b e r s w il l b e a s s i g n e d in s o m e c a s e s

d e p e n d in g u p o n s a f e ty b e c a u s e i f y o u h a v e 1 2 3 a n d 2 3 1 a n d 3 1 2 t h a t
c a n l e a d t o s o m e c o n f u s i o n e s p e c i a ll y o n t h e r a d i o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S : S o w e m a y a s s i g n a l e t te r t o t h o s e f o r e x a m p l e
132Alpha just to ensure that we have safety and we do not have
c o m m u n ic a ti o n w h e r e y o u h a v e th e w r o n g p il o t w h o h a s g o n e a n d
r e a c ti n g t o a n in s t r u c t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
20

MR HENDRIK MARAIS:

Th e n – n e x t t o th e c a l l s i g n y o u h a v e tw o

le t t e r s Y a n d N . T h e Y i n d i c a t e s t h e fl ig h t r u le s th e a i r c r a ft w il l fl y. W e
h a v e t h r e e d i ffe r e n t t y p e s i n f a c t f o u r.

N o r m a ll y fli g h ts w i ll fl y

in s t r u m e n t f li g h t r u l e s f li g h t s o f th is d u r a t io n a n d t h e y w il l fl y t h e n b y
r e fe r e n c e t o t h e i n s tr u m e n t a ti o n in th e f li g h t d e c k c o u p l e d t o t h e
s ig n a l s t h e y r e c e iv e f r o m g r o u n d i n s ta ll a ti o n s o r f r o m s a te ll i te s o r G P S

Page 76 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
f o r e x a m p le . T h e o th e r o n e i s V f o r Vis u a l fli g h t r u le s t h a t is w h e r e t h e
p i lo t w i ll n a v i g a te b y m e a n s o f v is u a l r e fe r e n c e t o i d e n t if i a b le t h i n g s o n
t h e g r o u n d s u c h a s r o a d s , t o w n s , r iv e r s o r d a m s f o r e x a m p le .

Th e Y

h e r e in d ic a t e s t h a t t h e f li g h t w a s fi r s t g o i n g t o fl y i n s tr u m e n t f li g h t
r u l e s a n d t h e n c h a n g e d t o v i s u a l fl ig h t r u l e s w h i c h i s q u i te d i ff e r e n t t o
w h a t w e a r e u s e d to .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I s th is – d o e s t h i s m e a n t h a t a s l o n g a s h e
c a n s e e t h e n h e d o e s n o t n e e d t o u s e t h e i n s tr u m e n t?

How do you

d is t in g u i s h b e t w e e n t h e v is u a l a n d t h e in s t r u m e n t o p e r a t io n ?
10

M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S : I n th is c a s e n o r m a l ly it w il l fly i n s tr u m e n t f li g h t
r u l e s u n t il th e a ir c r a f t r e a c h e s a p o in t o n it s r o u te b e y o n d w h i c h th e r e
a r e n o m o r e n a v i g a ti o n a i d s a v a il a b l e .

S o – a n d if y o u a l lo w m e t o

c a r r y o n a b i t I w il l tr y a n d e x p l a in i t w h e n w e g e t t o t h e r o u t e o f t h e
a ir c r a f t I th in k i t w il l b e m o r e c le a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S : W e t h e n h a v e t h e N w h ic h s ta n d s f o r C h a r t e r.
I t is a n o n - s c h e d u l e o p e r a t i o n a n d if i t w a s a s c h e d u l e d o p e r a ti o n i t
w o u ld h a v e b e e n S f o r S c h e d u l e .
20

S o i t in d i c a t e s w h a t t y p e o f f li g h t

r u l e s a n d w h a t ty p e o f fl ig h ts t h e y g o i n g to f ly. B e l o w t h a t i s th a t is t h e
ty p e o f a ir c r a f t . T h i s i s a n a ir b a s e 3 3 0 2 0 0 i t is h e a v y w e i g h t c a t e g o r y
s o i t w il l h a v e a h e a v y w e ig h t t u r b u le n c e in fl u e n c e o n tr a ff ic b e h in d i t .
T h e l e t te r s t o th e r i g h t a n d I a m n o t g o i n g t o g o t h r o u g h a l l o f th e m
r e a l ly e x p l a in s o r in d i c a t e s w h a t ty p e o f n a v i g a t io n c o m m u n i c a t io n
e q u ip m e n t t h i s a ir c r a ft h a s o n b o a r d . A n d e a c h l e t te r w i ll r e p r e s e n t a

Page 77 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
s p e c i f ic ty p e o f e q u i p m e n t .

B e l o w t h a t t h e n t h e le t t e r s V I D P i s t h e

a e r o d r o m e o f d e p a r t u r e w h ic h is In d i r a G a n d h i i n N e w D e l h i a n d th e
a ir c r a f t w o u l d h a v e t a k e n o ff a t 1 8 0 0 w h ic h in fa c t e i g h t o ’c lo c k a t n i g h t
in S o u t h A fr ic a . W e w o r k o n U TC ’s t h r o u g h o u t a v i a ti o n s o w e w o r k o n
a s t a n d a r d ti m e a n d t h a t is t w o h o u r s S o u t h A fr i c a t i m e m i n u s t w o . S o
in t h is c a s e y o u w i ll s e e t h a t i n d ic a t e s 1 8 0 0 a n d i t is t h e n e i g h t o ’c l o c k
in S o u t h A f r i c a in f a c t U T C y o u c a n a l s o e q u a te t o G M D .

Below that

t h e n is t h e a ir c r a f t s p e e d a n d i ts f li g h t l e v e l a n d t h e r o u t e i t i s g o in g t o
fl y.
10

Th e f iv e le t t e r in d ic a t o r s f o r e x a m p le b e h i n d th e D C T w h ic h s a y s

d ir e c t . S o f r o m t a k e - o ff th is a ir c r a f t i s g o in g t o g o d ir e c t to a p o s i ti o n
c a l l e d r e b o n a n d t h e n i t g iv e s t h e r o u t e a s w e c o n t i n u e . I s a i d I w o u ld
c la r i fy t h e Y l e t t e r w e h a d in t h e f li g h t r u l e s . I d o n o t th i n k th e w h o l e
r o u t e is r e l e v a n t a n d I d o n o t i n t e n d to b o r e y o u w it h t h a t J u d g e . W h e n
w e g e t t o t h e H o t e l B r a v o Vi c t o r t h e H B V o n t h e s e c o n d l in e o f t h e
r o u t e a t h i r d la s t s e t o f c h a r a c t e r s .

T h a t w a s th e n a v i g a t io n a i d

in s t a l l e d ju s t t o th e n o r t h o f t h e H a r t e b e e s p o o r t D a m a n d w e n o w s e e
t h a t t h is f li g h t i s g o i n g t o g o t o t h a t n a v i g a ti o n a i d a n d fr o m th e r e y o u
g o v i s u a l f li g h t r u l e s t o A ir F o r c e B a s e W a te r k l o o f . T h e FAW K b e lo w.
S o t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o n a v i g a t e w i t h i n s tr u m e n t s u n ti l th e y g o t to t h e
20

H o t e l B r a v o Vic t o r n a v i g a t io n a i d a n d th e n r o u te v is u a l f li g h t r u le s t o
Wa t e r k l o o f .

Th e y w o u l d h a v e f lo w n f o r t e n h o u r s a n d e ig h t m i n u t e s .

T h e a l te r n a te t o t h e d e s t i n a t io n is K i n g S h a k a FA L E . S o i f t h e y h a d t o
d iv e r t th e y w o u ld h a v e g o n e t o D u r b a n . B e l o w t h a t w e h a v e a d d i ti o n a l
in f o r m a ti o n r e g a r d i n g n a v i g a t io n w h ic h w a s n o t a b l e t o fi t i n t o th e t o p
fi e l d

due

to

the

li m i t a ti o n

of

characters.

Page 78 of 103

And

then

we

have

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
c o m m u n ic a ti o n

and

a d d i t io n a l

in f o r m a t i o n

such

as

the

a ir c r a f t ’s

r e g is tr a ti o n . A n d t h e n th e E E T a b o u t tw o t h ir d s i n th e r o w w i t h a / t h e n
VA B F a n d a t i m e a n d F S S S .
a ir c r a f t w o u ld h a v e c r o s s e d .

T h o s e a r e t h e in f o r m a ti o n r e g i o n s t h a t
S o d i ff e r e n t c o u n tr ie s a i r s p a c e s .

So it

w o u ld h a v e le f t I n d i a n a ir s p a c e th e n e n t e r e d i n t o t h e S e y c h e ll e s a ir
s p a c e a n d fi n a l ly in t o t h e M o z a m b i c a n a ir s p a c e a n d t h e n i n to t h e
J o h a n n e s b u r g a ir s p a c e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : A n d t h a t c o n t a i n s a ll t h e a d d i t io n a l in f o r m a ti o n
10

f o r th o s e b o u n d a r i e s a n d i t t h e n s a y s w h o t h e o p e r a t o r is a n d w h a t t h e
e n d r o u te a l te r n a te a ir p o r t s w il l b e . S o i f t h e a ir c r a f t h a d a p r o b le m e n
r o u t e i t w o u l d h a v e d iv e r t e d e i th e r to t h e S e y c h e ll e s t o H a r a r e o r i t
w o u ld h a v e t u r n e d b a c k i n t o I n d i a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u . A n d t h o s e a l t e r n a t iv e s m u s t

a ls o b e in c l u d e d i n th a t fl ig h t – o n t h a t f li g h t p la n ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. N o w a n d t h is w o u l d s i m p l y te ll y o u
a b o u t = i t te ll s u s a b o u t t h e r o u te i t s e l f b u t d o e s i t t e ll y o u w h o t h e
o w n e r o f t h e a ir c r a f t is a n d th e c a p a c i ty o f th e p a s s e n g e r s o n b o a r d ?
20

M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: Ye s M a ’ a m in f a c t t h e s e c o n d l a s t li n e o n t h e
r ig h t h a n d s i d e i t s a y s O p e r a t o r J e t A ir w a y s .

S o i t t e l ls u s w h o th e

o p e r a t o r is .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s ;
MR HENDRIK MARAIS:

A d d i ti o n a l i n fo r m a t io n s u c h a s p e r s o n s o n

b o a r d i t w i ll n e v e r i n d ic a t e n a m e s t o u s I d o n o t t h i n k w e h a v e th e

Page 79 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
c a p a c i ty t o p r o c e s s f o u r h u n d r e d n a m e s o n e a c h fl ig h t p l a n .
h o w e v e r te ll u s h o w m a n y p e o p l e a r e o n b o a r d .

I t w i ll

Fl ig h t o r c r e w

m e m b e r s a n d p a s s e n g e r s a n d t h a t is f o r s e a r c h a n d r e s c u e p u r p o s e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: I t i s n o t t r a n s m i t t e d in t h e f li g h t p la n l ik e th is .
W e w i ll r e c e i v e i t in t h e D e p a r t u r e M e s s a g e B o o k b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e n
t h e y h a v e a c t u a ll y c o u n te d p e o p l e o n b o a r d a n d t h e y c a n g iv e u s e x a c t
f u e l e n d u r a n c e f o r t h e fl i g h t .

S o t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n w i ll c o m e i n th e

D e p a r t u r e M e s s a g e I r e f e r r e d to e a r l ie r.
10

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

okay thank you.

And then same

e x p l a n a t io n i f y o u t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e c o u l d y o u ju s t h i g h li g h t t h e n t h e
d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n th e f ir s t fl ig h t p la n t h a t y o u fi n d a t 9 . 1 a n d t h e
s e c o n d o n e 9 .2 a n d t h e n w e w ill d e a l w i th t h e t h ir d o n e .
MR HENDRIK MARAIS:
s ig n s is d i ff e r e n t .

T h e 9 . 2 d i ff e r s r e a l ly b e c a u s e t h e s ig n c a ll

I t is d i ff e r e n t fl i g h ts s o y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r i t w a s

9900.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : T h is o n e i s 9 0 0 2 . Th e e q u i p m e n t o n b o a r d is
t h e s a m e , t h e s a m e a i r c r a f t, t h e r e g is tr a ti o n r e m a i n s t h e s a m e e x c e p t
20

t h is fl ig h t is d e p a r t in g f r o m W a te r k l o o f a n d i ts d e s t in a ti o n is O R Ta m b o .
S o i t is d e p a r ti n g W a t e r k l o o f a t 0 9 0 0 i n t h e m o r n i n g w i t h is e le v e n
o ’c l o c k a n d i t w il l fly f o r t w e l v e m i n u t e s t o la n d a t O R Ta m b o a n d a g a in
t h e a l t e r n a t e a ir p o r t is K i n g S h a k a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d w h e r e a r e ti m e s ?
t h e d a t e a n d th e ti m e ?

Page 80 of 103

What day –

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
MR HENDRIK MARAIS:

Th is f li g h t p la n d o e s n o t in d ic a t e a d a t e o f

d e p a r t u r e . S o w h e n y o u g o t h e t h i r d r o w d o w n o n t h a t fl i g h t p l a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: I t s a y s 0 2 0 7 3 1 s o t h a t w il l b e t h e 2 n d t h e 2 n d
M a y b e c a u s e t h e a ir c r a f t l a n d e d o n t h e 3 0 A p r il .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: S o t h a t w il l b e th e d a y t h a t i t is fi l e d i f t h e r e is
n o a l t e r n a t e t i m e o f d e p a r t u r e o r d a t e o f d e p a r t u r e i n d ic a te d b e lo w i t
w i ll b e s p e c i fic t o t h a t d a y.
10

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n w h a t is t h e n
t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n t h e f li g h t p l a n a n d 9 .2 a n d 9 .3 ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : 9 . 2 a s I s a id is i n b o u n d fr o m W a t e r k l o o f t o O R
Ta m b o . 9 . 3 i s a f li g h t p l a n f o r t h e d i ff e r e n c e a g a in t h e c a ll s i g n . I t is a
J e t A ir w a y s 9 9 0 1 a n d in t e r e s ti n g ly h e r e t h e fl ig h t – t h e ty p e o f f li g h t
in d i c a t e s a s c h e d u l e th a t m a y b e a s m a ll e r r o r. It s h o u l d in f a c t h a v e
in d i c a t e d N f o r a n o n - s c h e d u l e o r a c h a r t e r f li g h t. T h e s a m e a ir c r a f t
w i t h t h e s a m e e q u i p a g e . T h e b ig d i ffe r e n c e h e r e i s th a t t h e a ir c r a f t i s
s c h e d u l e d to g o o u t o f O R Ta m b o to In d ir a G a n d h i i n I n d i a a n d t h e n o f
c o u r s e r o u t e w il l b e s u b s t a n t i a l ly d i ffe r e n t a n d t h e f li g h t d u r a t io n is 9

20

hours 37.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S : In t e r e s ti n g w h e n y o u c o m p a r e t h is t o t h e fl ig h t
p l a n i n 9 . 1 is t h e s h o r t e r t i m e i t t a k e s to g o e a s t b o u n d th a n w h a t i t
t a k e s to c o m e w e s t b o u n d b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e v a i li n g w e s t e r l y w in d s . S o
it w il l b e m u c h q u ic k e r t o g o t o D e l h i t h a n w h a t it is t o c o m e f r o m D e l h i

Page 81 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
to Johannesburg.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. If you may then just go back –
o h s o r r y, s o r r y o n t h e fl i g h t p l a n s t h a t w a s t h e la s t o n e c o u l d y o u t h e n
ju s t g o b a c k o n t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts j u s t b r i e f ly.

Yo u h a v e a l r e a d y

h i g h l ig h te d th e m a s y o u w e r e e x p la in i n g a t p a g e 1 3 a s to w h a t i s i t t h a t
is s u p p o s e d t o g o i n t o a fl ig h t p l a n . Yo u h a v e e x p l a in e d t h e t e c h n i c a l
p a r t t o i t a n d i f y o u c o u ld ju s t e x p l a in i t i n la y m a n ’s t e r m s .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: S o th e r e i s t w o r e a l r e q u ir e m e n t s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S :
fl ig h t p l a n .

Excuse me

I t i s w h ic h fl i g h ts k n e w t o fi le a

S o if y o u a r e g o i n g to fl y a s c h e d u l e d o r n o n - s c h e d u l e d

o p e r a ti o n s w h e r e th e fl i g h t o p e r a t e s fo r r e w a r d t h e r e m u s t b e a f li g h t
p l a n fi le d . I f y o u a r e g o in g t o c r o s s a n i n t e r n a t io n a l b o u n d a r y y o u m u s t
fi le a fl ig h t p la n . O r i f y o u r f li g h t w i ll e n t e r c o n tr o ll e d a ir s p a c e e x c e p t
w h e n i t c r o s s e s a n a ir r o u t e a t r ig h t a n g l e s y o u m u s t f il e a f li g h t p l a n .
S o t h e r e a r e t h e s e r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r w h e n fl ig h ts a r e m a n d a t e d to fi le a
fl ig h t p l a n a n d t h e y h a v e to f il e t h a t f li g h t p l a n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

S o i f y o u fl y i n g fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g t o

C a p e To w n ?
20

M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: Yo u w il l h a v e to f i le a fli g h t p la n . B e c a u s e y o u
a r e g o i n g to fly i n t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g c o n t r o l l e d a ir s p a c e a n d y o u a r e
g o i n g t o o p e r a t e in t h e C a p e To w n c o n t r o ll e d a ir s p a c e s o y o u – b e e n
m a n d a t e d to f il e a fl ig h t p l a n . T h e r e a r e m o r e w h e n y o u – fo r e x a m p l e
t h e fl ig h t r e q u i r e s s e a r c h a n d r e s c u e y o u w i ll h a v e t o f il e a fl ig h t p la n .
O r w h e n y o u f ly o n in s tr u m e n t r u l e s y o u a r e m a n d a t e d t o fi l e a fl i g h t

Page 82 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
plan.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y t h a n k y o u . S o i f y o u t h e n c o n tr o l li n g
a n a ir c r a f t fr o m AT N S t o w e r s a n d a n a ir c r a f t h a s f il e d a f li g h t p l a n is
t h e r e a n y t h i n g e ls e t h a t y o u n e e d t o r e q u i r e fr o m t h a t a ir c r a f t b e f o r e it
d e p a r ts o r i t l a n d s ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S:

N o t h e r e is n o r e q u ir e m e n t .

T h e fl ig h t p la n

r e a l ly s a y s th is is w h a t I in t e n d t o d o a s t h e p il o t i n c o m m a n d a n d w e
w i ll t h e n a s in n a v i g a t io n s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r b a s e o u r s e r v ic e o n th e f li g h t
p l a n a n d b a s e d o n t h e r o u t e a i r c r a f t a s – o r t h e p i lo t i n c o m m a n d h a s
10

r e q u e s t e d t o fly.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. And..;
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld y o u n o r m a l ly r e a c t t o a f li g h t p l a n s o t h a t th e
p e r s o n w h o h a s s e n t t h e f li g h t p l a n k n o w s w h e t h e r y o u a r e o k a y w it h i t
o r w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e c h a l l e n g e s o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t i f t h e r e is n o
p r o b le m y o u d o n o t h a v e to r e a c t o r r e s p o n d b u t i f t h e r e is a p r o b l e m
t h e n y o u h a v e t o b e in t o u c h w it h th e m .
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t S ir. If w e d o n o t r e s p o n d o r
q u e r y th e r e is n o p r o b l e m w i th t h e fl i g h t p l a n . Ye t a g a i n y o u c a n a l s o
fi le a f li g h t p l a n t o d a y fo r a n o p e r a t io n to m o r r o w a n d b e c a u s e o f

20

w e a t h e r c o n d i ti o n s o r w in d d e c i d e d y o u w a n t t o c h a n g e t h e fl i g h t l e v e l
for example.

A n d t h a t r e q u e s t c a n a l s o b e m a d e v e r b a ll y b e fo r e y o u

s t a r t y o u r a ir c r a f t t o d e p a r t . S o t h e fir s t c o n ta c t y o u w il l h a v e w it h Ai r
Tr a ff ic C o n t r o l y o u w i ll s a y, a n d r e q u e s t fl ig h t le v e l f o r e x a m p l e .
t h o s e s m a l l c h a n g e s a r e ta c t ic a l ly h a n d l e d i n th e s y s te m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y

Page 83 of 103

So

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. And then at page – I beg your
p a r d o n – a t p a g e 1 4 y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g i v e n t h e C h a i r p e r s o n t h e
in d i c a t io n a b o u t w h a t is t o b e c o n ta i n e d o n th e fl ig h t p l a n a n d t h e n
c o u l d y o u ju s t d e a l w i th t h o s e t h a t y o u h a v e n o t d e a l t w i t h in t h e
t e c h n ic a l t e r m s ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : W e ll I t h in k i t is p r o b a b ly e a s i e r i f w e s t a r t o n
p a g e 1 3 j u s t t o m a k e s u r e w e d o n o t m is s a n y th in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s t a r t – y o u m a y s t a r t th e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
10

M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S : S o i f y o u a r e g o in g to g o d o w n th e p a g e a n d it
m u s t b e c o n t a i n e d th a t c o m e s in a l a te r s e c ti o n y o u c a n f il e y o u r f li g h t
p l a n w i t h a n A ir Tr a ff ic S e r v i c e s U n i t o r a B r i e fi n g O ff i c e a n d I t h i n k w e
h a v e c o v e r e d t h a t i n p r e v i o u s in f o r m a t io n . S o f li g h t p l a n s w i ll b e fi le d
in r e s p e c t o f
a . A ll f li g h ts t o b e c o n d u c te d i n c o n tr o ll e d o r a d v i s o r y a ir s p a c e .
R e m e m b e r I m e n t io n e d i t i f y o u f ly i n c o n tr o ll e d a i r s p a c e y o u
n e e d t o fi l e a fl ig h t p l a n . E x c e p t th is s h a l l n o t a p p l y i f
a . I t is lo c a l f li g h t.
F o r e x a m p le a lo c a l f li g h t w il l b e a tr a in in g f li g h t w h ic h w i ll ta k e o ff

20

fr o m a ir p o r t s s u c h a s W o n d e r b o o m , R a n d A ir p o r t o r L a n s e r ia a n d g o d o
a tr a i n i n g f li g h t a n d r e t u r n to th a t a ir p o r t . Th a t w il l b e a l o c a l fl ig h t . A
fl ig h t c r o s s in g a n a i r w a y o r a n a d v is o r y r o u te a t r i g h t a n g le s i s n o t
r e q u ir e d t o fi le a fl ig h t p l a n . A n d a v e r i fi e d f li g h t e n t e r i n g o r d e p a r t in g
fr o m a n a e r o d r o m e t r a ff ic z o n e o r c o n tr o l le d z o n e fr o m o r t o a n
u n m a n n e d a e r o d r o m e w h e r e n o o th e r c o n tr o ll e d a i r s p a c e w i ll b e

Page 84 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
e n t e r e d . A n d t h e n fo r a n i n te r n a ti o n a l f li g h t y o u m u s t fi le a f li g h t p la n .
A n d t h e n t h e r e a r e f li g h t s i n t h e C la s s 1 o r C l a s s 2 l ic e n c e is s u e d a n d
t h a t r e a lly r e l a t e s t o th e o p e r a t io n o f c h a r t e r s . A n y fl ig h t w it h in o r i n t o
d e s i g n a t e d a r e a s o r a lo n g d e s i g n a t e d r o u t e s w h e n s o r e q u ir e d b y t h e
AT S a u t h o r i ty t o fa c i li t a t e t h e p r o v is i o n o f f li g h t i n fo r m a t i o n a l e r t in g
a n d s e a r c h a n d r e s c u e s e r v i c e s a n d a n y w it h i n o r in t o d e s i g n a t e d a r e a s
o r a l o n g d e s i g n a t e d r o u t e s w h e n s o r e q u ir e d b y t h e a p p r o p r ia t e
a u t h o r i ty t o fa c i li t a te c o o r d i n a ti o n w it h a p p r o p r i a t e m i li t a r y u n i ts o r a ir
tr a ffic s e r v i c e u n i ts .
10

T h a t a b b r e v i a ti o n AT S U is A ir Tr a ffic S e r v i c e

U n i ts . A n d it a ls o a p p li e s t o th e a d j a c e n t s t a te s t o a v o i d p o s s i b l e n e e d
f o r i n te r c e p t io n fo r t h e p u r p o s e o f id e n ti fi c a ti o n . A n d th e n th e r e s t o f
t h e t e x t is t h e n t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e f li g h t p l a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d th e n l e t u s ta lk a b o u t th e n th e –
t h is p a r t ic u l a r a ir c r a f t a n d y o u h a v e a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d th e d i ff e r e n c e s
b e t w e e n t h e th r e e fl i g h t p l a n s .

F r o m t h e m o m e n t t h e n it l e f t In d i r a

G a n d h i c o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a i r p e r s o n i ts r o u t e fr o m th e m o m e n t i t
le f t o n t h e – i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n th e 2 9 t h b e c a u s e i t l a n d e d a t
Wa t e r k l o o f o n t h e 3 0 t h .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : S o t h e r o u t e a lr e a d y b e o u t o f I n d i a n a ir s p a c e
20

o u t i n t o t h e In d i a n O c e a n a t a r o u t e b e t w e e n t h e S e y c h e l le s a n d
M a d a g a s c a r o n a tr a c k to a b o u t P h a l a b o r w a i t w il l e n te r th e S o u t h
A fr ic a n a ir s p a c e a r o u n d t h e r e p o s i ti o n E p s e c is v e r y c l o s e t o
P h a l a b o r w a s o w e c a n ju s t g e t th e g e o g r a p h y. Fr o m t h e r e i t w il l t h e n
g e t t o i n b o u n d c l e a r a n c e in t o J o h a n n e s b u r g is s u e d b y t h e a ir tr a ffi c
c o n tr o ll e r. Th e a ir c r a f t w il l t h e n s t a r t r e q u e s ti n g d e s c e n t b a s e d o n h o w

Page 85 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
t h e y h a d p la n n e d t h e t r a je c to r y a n d th e fl ig h t . W e w i ll t h e n p r o v i d e
t h e m w i th d e s c e n t t o i n i t ia l l e v e l s a n d th o s e d e s c e n ts w i ll a l w a y s b e
li m i te d t o w h a t is s a fe . I n t h is s p e c i fic c a s e t h e a ir c r a f t w a s c l e a r e d t o
d i ff e r e n t le v e ls a t d i ff e r e n t t i m e s b e c a u s e th e r e w a s tr a ff ic b e lo w th a t .
O t h e r a ir c r a f t fl y i n g .

Th e n o n c e t h e d e s c e n t is d o w n t o a b o u t f li g h t

le v e l 1 6 0 a n d p a s s i n g a r o u n d a b o u t f li g h t le v e l 2 0 0 t h e tr a ffic w il l b e
h a n d e d o v e r to J o h a n n e s b u r g a p p r o a c h r a d a r a n d t h a t f u n c ti o n w il l
t h e n p o s i ti o n t h e t r a ff ic i n to i ts d e s t in a ti o n . S o in t h is c a s e a p p r o a c h
r a d a r w o u l d v e c t o r t h e tr a ff ic o n to W a te r k l o o f A ir F o r c e B a s e . B e c a u s e
10

t h e n a v i g a ti o n a i d s a t W a t e r k lo o f a t t h e ti m e w e r e n o t a v a i l a b l e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

D o e s t h a t m e a n t h a t y o u c o u ld n o t

c o o r d i n a t e th is fl ig h t w i t h W a te r k l o o f?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: N o i t d o e s m e a n t h a t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Pardon?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : W e – t h e y c o u l d n o t r e c e iv e t h e n a v ig a ti o n a i d
o n t h e g r o u n d a t W a te r k l o o f b u t w e s p e c i fi c a ll y c o o r d in a te d t h e f li g h t
w i t h A ir Tr a ffi c C o n tr o l a t W a t e r k l o o f a n d it i s o n th e r e c o r d i n g s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d …
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S:
20

S o w e w o u ld – s o r r y M a ’a m l e t m e j u s t

c o n ti n u e w i t h a s m a l l e x p la n a ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S:

W e w o u l d c a ll Wa t e r k l o o f w h e n t h e a i r c r a ft

c o m m e n c e s t h e d e s c e n t s o w e k n o w h o w t o r o u te th e t r a ff ic . A n d t h e n
t h a t w il l a ls o m e a n h o w w e p l a n t o d e s c e n d t h e tr a ffi c a n d p o s i t i o n
t h e m i n t o th e w h o l e l a r g e r J o h a n n e s b u r g t e r m i n a l a ir s p a c e c o n s i d e r i n g

Page 86 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
t h a t t h e y n e e d t o p o s it i o n i n t h a t s m a ll e r p i e c e o f a i r s p a c e f o r
Wa t e r k l o o f .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. A lr i g h t a n d th e n y o u d e a l w i th t h e
c li m b o u t a n d t h e c r e w s o f t h e a ir c r a f t a t p a g e s 1 6 a n d o f c o u r s e y o u
h a v e a lr e a d y d e a l t w i t h t h e d e s c e n t . Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g th a t y o u w o u ld
lik e to – to h i g h l i g h t ? I t a k e i t th a t w h e n i t i s c r u is i n g n o w t h a t is w h e n
a u t o p il o t i s i n c h a r g e is t h a t c o r r e c t o r n o t n e c e s s a r i ly ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : M o s tl y. R e m e m b e r t h e a ir c r a f t c a n a ls o c li m b
a n d d e s c e n d w i th a u t o p il o t a n d I a m n o t a p il o t b u t t h e y u s e t h e a u to
10

p i lo t i n m a n y c a s e s q u i t e s o o n a f t e r ta k e - o ff a n d u n til c l o s e t o t h e
r u n w a y a n d i n m a n y c a s e s e v e n d u r i n g t h e la n d i n g d e p e n d i n g o n h o w
t h e a ir c r a f t a n d t h e c r e w a r e tr a in e d a n d c e r ti fi e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: B u t i n th e c r u is e i t is p r e d o m i n a n t ly w h e n t h e
a ir c r a f t is l e v e l i t m a y c h a n g e l e v e ls d u r i n g th e n ig h t e s p e c i a lly i f y o u
fi n d th e E u r o t r a c k s y o u w il l k n o w t h a t a s t h e a ir c r a f t b u r n s fu e l i t
b e c o m e s l i g h t e r a n d it c a n t h e n c li m b h i g h e r t o o p t i m is e fu e l b u r n o n
t h e a ir c r a f t . S o i t i s l e s s f u e l b u r n th e h i g h e r t h e y g o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

20

Ye s .

A n d t h e n w h e n i t th e n l a n d e d a t

Wa t e r k l o o f d id y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty e n d a t t h a t p o i n t o r d o y o u c o n ti n u e
m o n i t o r in g i t u p t o a c e r t a i n p o in t a n d if s o w h a t is t h a t p o i n t?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S:

T h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty f o r AT N S w o u l d c o n ti n u e

u n t il t h a t a ir c r a ft g o t W a te r k l o o f i n s i g h t .
t h e n a v i g a ti o n a i d s w e r e n o t f u n c ti o n i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 87 of 103

R e m e m b e r I m e n t io n e d t h a t

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S:

S o w e w o u ld h a v e c o n ti n u e d t o p o s it i o n t h a t

a ir c r a f t b y m e a n s o f r a d a r u n t il th e p il o t i n c o m m a n d g o t th e r u n w a y i n
s ig h t . O n c e th e y g o t t h e r u n w a y i n s i g h t w e w o u ld th e n h a n d t h e m o v e r
t o Wa t e r k l o o f a n d t h e l a n d i n g a n d e v e r y t h i n g th e r e a ft e r w o u l d b e u n d e r
ju r is d i c t i o n o f t h e W a t e r k lo o f A ir Tr a ffi c C o n tr o ll e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. A n d …
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h s o r r y C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n t e r m s o f p l a y in g y o u r r o l e y o u o r y o u r t e a m w o u l d
10

t h e y p h y s i c a lly s e e t h e a ir c r a f t o n t h e s c r e e n fr o m a c e r ta i n p o in t a f te r
it h a s e n te r e d S o u t h A f r i c a n a ir s p a c e o r t h e y w o u l d ju s t h a v e a n i d e a
w h e r e e x a c tl y i t is b u t n o t s e e t h e a c t u a l a ir c r a f t o n a s c r e e n o r
something?
MR HENDRIK MARAIS:

J u d g e t h e r a d a r p ic t u r e a c t u a l ly g iv e s u s a n

in d i c a t io n e x a c t ly w h e r e t h e a ir c r a f t i s .

A n d i t is b a s e d o n a v e r y

t e c h n ic a l s o l u t i o n b u t w e h a v e m o r e t h a n o n e s e n s o r t h a t w il l d e t e c t
t h e a ir c r a f t a t t h e s a m e t i m e .
s y s te m .

S o w h e r e th e a i r c r a f t i s d is p l a y e d is a c t u a l ly c a li b r a te d a n d

c o m p u te d i n t h e s y s t e m .
20

S o w e a ls o h a v e r e d u n d a n c y in t h e

S o i t is e x a c t l y w h e r e t h e a ir c r a f t i s w i t h

s o m e v e r y m a r g in o f e r r o r w h ic h i s a ll o w e d a n d y o u w il l s e e a l i t tl e
b l o c k i f y o u r e c a ll w h a t y o u s a w o n th e s c r e e n e a r li e r – a li t tl e b l o c k
w i t h a c a l l s ig n , t h e s p e e d a n d t h e f li g h t le v e l a n d s o m e a d d i ti o n a l
in f o r m a ti o n . A n d th a t is e x a c t ly w h e r e t h e a ir c r a f t is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir. A n d t h e n y o u d e a lt –

Page 88 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
m a y b e y o u c o u l d j u s t g o t o w h e r e t h e n ju s t y o u d e a l w it h t h e m o n i to r i n g
o f t h a t p a r ti c u l a r a ir c r a f t a n d y o u r i n te r p r e ta t io n o f i ts r o u t e . Yo u d e a l
w i t h t h a t a t p a g e 2 0 o r a m I g o i n g – i s th e r e a n y o t h e r a s p e c t y o u w a n t
h i g h l ig h t a t p a g e – p a g e s 1 7 a n d 1 8 m a y b e b e f o r e w e g o t o 2 0 ?
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S :

N o I th i n k w e h a v e c o v e r e d e v e r y t h in g u p t o

page 19.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Yo u h a v e c o v e r e d e v e r y t h in g th a n k y o u .

W o u l d y o u t h e n ju s t d e a l w i t h w h a t y o u d e a l w i t h a t p a g e 2 0 ?
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S :
10

P a g e 2 0 o f t h e s t a te m e n t a n d o n w a r d s is a n

a tt e m p t to tr a n s l a te t h e c o d e o f t h e f li g h t p l a n in t o l a y m a n ’s te r ms . S o
w h a t y o u w il l s e e is a w h o l e l is t o f c a p i t a l le t t e r s s t a r ti n g w i t h
F S S S Z Q Z X e n d i n g r ig h t d o w n to FA J A F D PA a n d r i g h t a b o v e t h a t
FAW K Z T Z X . N o w e a c h o f t h o s e a r e a s s o c ia t e d t o a n a ir p o r t o r a n A ir
Tr a ff ic C o n tr o l S e r v ic e o r a n A ir Tr a ffic S e r v ic e a n d t h e l e t t e r in g b e h i n d
t h a t is w h a t k i n d o f s e r v ic e t h a t i s . S o S e y c h e l l e s o r s o r r y F S S S Z Q Z X
is t h e S e y c h e ll e s . Z Q Z X is t h e fl ig h t in f o r m a t io n r e g i o n a n d it i n d ic a te s
t h a t i t is a n i n s tr u m e n t fl ig h t r u l e s a ir c r a f t.

S o t h o s e a r e a ll t h e

a d d r e s s e s w h ic h w il l b e i n c l u d e d i n t h e fl i g h t p l a n s o i t r e a c h e s a ll th e
r e l e v a n t a ir p o r ts a n d a i r t r a ff ic s e r v i c e s p r o v id e r s w h ic h w il l d e a l w i th
20

t h e fl i g h t fo r is d u r a t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t – t h e r e w a s a n
a l t e r n a t e a ir p o r t a s w e l l w h i c h w a s K in g S h a k a a i r p o r t .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

In the event that they could not land at

Wa t e r k l o o f .

Page 89 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S:

Yo u w il l s e e t h e d e s t i n a t io n a t t h e b o t to m o f

t h e f ir s t p a r a g r a p h is W a te r k l o o f FAW K Z T Z X w h i c h is t h e c o n t r o l to w e r
a n d th e n t h e a l t e r n a t iv e is K i n g S h a k a a n d t h a t i s Z T Z X w h i c h i s t h e
c o n tr o l t o w e r t h e r e a n d i t is t h e n a d d r e s s e d t o o t h e r a d d r e s s e s FA J A
f o r e x a m p le is J o h a n n e s b u r g t h e g e n e r a l a r e a a n d t h e FD PA is w h e r e
w e w ill p r o c e s s t h e f li g h t p l a n i n fo r m a ti o n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

In t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h – i n p a r a g r a p h 9 .4

t h e l a s t t h r e e s e n t e n c e s th e r e y o u m a k e m e n ti o n t h a t t h e a d d r e s s e s
p r o v i d e d h e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h e a d d r e s s p r o v i d e d i n t h e s c r e e n
10

s h o t o f t h e fl i g h t p la n .

Th e a d d i ti o n a l a d d r e s s e s w e r e a d d e d b y th e

J o h a n n e s b u r g b r i e fi n g u n i t w h e n p r o c e s s i n g t h e f li g h t p la n . C o u ld y o u
ju s t e x p l a in t h a t ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S : Ye s i f c a s t y o u r m i n d b a c k to th e s c r e e n s h o t
t h e r e w e r e o n ly t h r e e a d d r e s s e s i n t h a t
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S: T h e o p e r a to r i n In d i a w i ll n o t n e c e s s a r i ly k n o w
w h o t o s e n d a ll t h is in f o r m a t io n to in S o u th A fr ic a a n d v i c e v e r s a w e
w o u ld n o t k n o w e x a c tly w h o t o s e n d i t t o i n I n d i a . S o w h a t h a p p e n s i s
t h e y w il l d i s p a tc h t h e f li g h t p l a n t o t h e F I R o r t h e r e g io n J o h a n n e s b u r g
20

a n d th e f li g h t p l a n p r o c e s s i n g a n d t h e in f o r m a t io n u n i t a n d t h e
in f o r m a ti o n u n i t o r t h e b r i e fi n g o ffi c e a s w e c a ll i t w il l t h e n l o o k a t t h is
fl ig h t p l a n , s e e w h e r e i t w a s s e n t t o a n d w h e r e n o t a n d a d d t h e
a d d it i o n a l a d d r e s s e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h o c o n s t i tu t e s th e b r i e fi n g u n i t ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: T h a t i s t h e i n fo r m a ti o n m a n a g e m e n t o ffic e s w e

Page 90 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
s p o k e a b o u t e a r li e r w h e n I s p o k e a b o u t s p e c i a l is t r e s o u r c e s d o y o u
recall?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R IK M A R A I S : S o t h e y w i ll m a n t h a t u n i t a n d t h e y w i ll f o r w a r d
t h is fl i g h t p l a n t o w h e r e i t b e lo n g s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o t h e y w il l b e o ff ic i a ls w i t h i n AT N S ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: C o r r e c t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. And then the next page.
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: T h e n e x t p a g e is r e a ll y s ta r t s o n …
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t j u s t d e a l s w it h c o d e s , a m I r ig h t ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: C o r r e c t a n d I k n o w i t is r e a lly t h e c a ll s i g n a n d
t h e fl i g h t r u l e s a n d t h e ty p e o f fl ig h t w h ic h I t h in k w e h a v e a d d r e s s e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A t w h a t p o i n t t h e n w o u l d y o u – t h a t
is t h e AT N S g e t t o k n o w t h a t a p a r tic u la r f li g h t d i d n o t h a v e a f o r e i g n –
o v e r fl ig h t p e r m i t ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: T h e f o r e i g n o p e r a t o r p e r m i t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HENDRIK MARAIS:

I t h i n k w e h a v e h e a r d i n e a r l i e r e v id e n c e w e

w i ll k n o w a b o u t t h is w h e n t h e a i r c r a ft h a s la n d e d a n d w e d is c o v e r t h a t
20

it d i d n o t h a v e o n e .

AT N S m a n d a t e is t o p r o v id e s a fe a n d e ffic i e n t

s e r v ic e s a n d n o t to c h e c k f o r th e s e c u r i ty c o m p o n e n t o f t h e fl ig h t . T h a t
r e s id e s w i t h t h e s e c u r i ty a g e n c i e s a n d t h o s e w h o is s u e th e f o r e i g n
operator permit.

T h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f AT N S is t o e n s u r e t h a t w e

r e c e i v e t h e fli g h t p l a n a n d p r o c e s s th e a i r c r a f t in a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e
fl ig h t p l a n r e c e iv e d a n d t h e s e r v ic e s r e q u e s te d t h e r e in . A D V T H A N D I

Page 91 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: S o w e w i ll b a s e o n r o u t i n g t h e fl i g h t l e v e ls a n d
t h e d e s ti n a t i o n a n d w e w ill p r o v id e th a t s e r v ic e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d th e n w h e n t h e f o r e i g n o p e r a t o r s

p e r m it is n o t th e r e w h a t a r e t h e s t e p s th a t y o u t a k e a s AT N S ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S:

I f w e n o ti c e t h a t t h e r e i s n o f o r e ig n o p e r a t o r

p e r m it w e w ill i n fo r m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t if w e d o n o t ic e b u t
o u r t a s k is n o t t o m o n i t o r f o r fo r e ig n o p e r a to r p e r m it s , t o is s u e t h e m o r
t o p o li c e w h o h a s o r h a s n o t .
10

W e fo c u s m e r e ly o n d e l iv e r y o f s a fe t y

a n d e ffic i e n c y a s p e r t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e o r g a n is a t i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h o w o u l d i m p o s e t h e f in e ?
M R H E N D R I K M A R A I S: M a ’a m I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d i n a ll t h e y e a r s t h a t y o u h a v e w o r k e d
w i t h AT N S h a v e y o u e v e r r e a c h e d a p o in t w h e r e y o u h a v e h a d – y o u
fi n d t h a t th e fl ig h t d o e s n o t h a v e a f o r e i g n o p e r a to r ’s p e r m i t w h e r e y o u
h a v e h a d t o c o n ta c t th e M i n is t e r a n d w h e r e y o u h a v e h a d t o d ir e c t t h a t
a fine be imposed?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: N o . I n my c a r e e r w i th AT N S I h a v e
b e c o m e a w a r e o f f li g h ts th a t d i d n o t h a v e fo r e ig n o p e r a to r p e r m i ts .

20

T h e r e p o r t in g t h e r e o f is s e n t t o t h e C i v i l Av i a ti o n A u t h o r it y a n d t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . I m p o s it i o n o f fi n e AT N S d o e s n o t i m p o s e a n y
fi n e s to a n y b o d y. W e a r e h e r e t o p r o v i d e a s e r v i c e a n d to l e v y a ta r i ff
f o r t h a t s e r v ic e .

I t m a y – th e r e i s n o r e c o l l e c ti o n o f a n y fi n e s o r o f

r e p o r t in g t o t h e M i n is te r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n – s o r r y – y o u d e a l w i th t h e fl i g h t

Page 92 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
a g a in a t p a g e s 2 1 a n d 2 2 . A r e t h e r e a r e a s t h a t y o u w is h t o h i g h l ig h t
there?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ma’am I think we have explained

t h e r o u ti n g …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

A n d t h o s e fiv e l e t te r p o i n ts a r e

a lr e a d y i n In d ia n a ir s p a c e , i n S e y c h e ll e s a n d M o z a m b i c a n a ir s p a c e a n d
t h o s e fi v e l e t t e r p o i n ts a r e b a s e d o n c o o r d i n a te s .

T h e y a r e p r o p e r ly

o u t o v e r th e h i g h s e a s . T h a t is a b o u t t h e o n ly p o i n t o f i n te r e s t .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Yo u w il l n o t ic e t h a t t h e f li g h t

in it i a l ly c r u i s e d a t f li g h t l e v e l 3 4 0 . I t t h e n c h a n g e s t o fl ig h t l e v e l 3 8 0
a ft e r p o s i t io n ( i n d i s ti n c t) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e r e a r e y o u n o w ? S o r r y Mr M a r a is .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: O n p a g e 2 1 …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : ( I n d is t in c t) .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: M i d w a y d o w n th e p a g e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: U n d e r l in e d te x t a n d t h a t w a s a g a in
20

a s t h e y w o u l d h a v e b u r n t o ff f u e l a n d b e c o m e li g h t e r. T h e y w o u ld h a v e
b e e n a b le t o c l i m b h i g h e r a n d t h e n t h e p l a n w a s a g a in t o c l i m b h i g h e r
t o fl ig h t le v e l 4 0 0 .

S o t h e y a g a i n o p ti m i s e t h e ir b u r n a n d t h e n f r o m

U n i fo r m G u l f 4 6 5 i t i n d ic a t e s w h e r e t h e tr a ffi c s t a r ts i ts p la n t o d e s c e n d
in t o S o u t h A f r i c a n a ir s p a c e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you and then at paragraph 10.1

Page 93 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
t h e r e is t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts .

Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u w a n t to

h i g h l ig h t?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: M a ’a m n o . I t h i n k th a t i s p l a c e d o n
r e c o r d a n d J u d g e th e r e a r e w h o l e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s w e h a v e s i n c e w e
r e c e i v e d fl ig h t p l a n c o o r d i n a t i o n fr o m M o z a m b i q u e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

H o w w e w o r k e d t h e tr a ff ic i n t o

S o u th A f r i c a n a i r s p a c e , s ta r t e d t o d e s c e n t, p o s i ti o n e d t h e t r a ff ic f o r
Wa t e r k l o o f
10

u n ti l

we

f i n a ll y

tr a n s f e r r e d

c o n tr o l

of

the

t r a ff ic

to

Wa t e r k l o o f w h e n i t g o t th e r u n w a y in s i g h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . I f y o u t o g o p a g e 2 6 t h e
fir s t s e n t e n c e t h e r e a l s o d e a li n g w i th t h e s e q u e n c e . I t s a y s :
“Waterkloof

To w e r

r e q u e s ts

start

and

a ft e r

d e p a r t u r e c l e a r a n c e fo r t h a t . ”
S o w h o w o u l d h a v e w i t h i n t h e W a te r k l o o f To w e r - w h a t is t h e p o s i ti o n o r
t h e le v e l o f th e o ffic i a l w h o w o u ld h a v e r e q u e s te d th a t ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: T h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a n A ir Tr a ffi c
C o n tr o l l e r – M i li t a r y A ir Tr a ffi c C o n tr o ll e r - e m p l o y e d b y th e S o u th
A fr ic a n A ir F o r c e . T h e r a n k I w o u l d k n o w. I t w il l b e a n O ffi c e r.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

A n d t h a t a ir c o n tr o l l e r w il l t h e n

c o m e i n c o n t a c t w i t h o u r a p p r o a c h s e r v i c e a t J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d w il l
r e q u e s t t o s t a r t t h e tr a ffi c .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I f I c a n j u s t e x p a n d a b i t .

Page 94 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

T h e r e q u e s t f o r s t a r t is t h a t o n c e

w e s a y th e a ir c r a f t c a n s t a r t . W e k n o w w e c a n a c c e p t th e a ir c r a f t in t o
o u r a ir s p a c e . I f w e w o u ld r a t h e r is s u e a s h o r t d e l a y f o r t h e s ta r t i t is
e a s i e r fo r t h e a ir c r a f t to b e d e l a y e d w i t h e n g in e s o ff t h a n to b u r n fu e l
a n d s t a n d t h e r e w a i t a t th e r u n a w a y e n d f o r d e p a r t u r e . S o t h a t is r e a l ly
t h e p u r p o s e fo r s ta r t . W h e r e c a n w e fi t t h e t r a ff ic i n ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A lr ig h t a n d th e n is t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u

w a n t to h i g h l ig h t th e r e – r e m a i n i n g p a r a g r a p h 1 0 . 2 ?
10

M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Oh no.

Th is is r e a lly j u s t a f li g h t

fr o m W a te r k l o o f t o O R Ta m b o . T h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts t h a t h a p p e n e d
fr o m r e q u e s ti n g th e s t a r t a n d th e c l e a r a n c e w h ic h w a s s u b s e q u e n tly
is s u e d .

T h e a ir c r a f t t h e n g o t a ir b o r n e .

It was placed under radar

c o n tr o l a n d i t w a s p o s i ti o n e d b y r a d a r u n t il i t l a n d e d – o h s o r r y –
p o s i ti o n e d o n t o r u n w a y 2 - 1 f o r O R Ta m b o .
T h e t a x i c l e a r a n c e a n d th e n p e r h a p s i m p o r ta n tl y o n p a g e 2 7
at the time 13:10:44 …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
20

W h e r e w e r e c e iv e d a n i n s tr u c ti o n

fr o m th e C A A t o t e ll t h e a ir c r a f t t h a t n o o n e s h o u l d d is e m b a r k u n ti l t h e y
h a v e g o t a p p r o v a l f r o m t h e C iv il Av i a ti o n A u th o r it y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u g o t t h a t i n s tr u c ti o n f r o m ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: T h e C i v il Av i a ti o n A u t h o r i ty.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a t t h e y – t h e y m u s t e m b a r k ?

must …?

Page 95 of 103

No one

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

N o o n e s h o u l d d is e m b a r k u n t il t h e

C A A h a s a u t h o r is e d t h a t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

D o y o u k n o w h o w lo n g t h e n t h a t

a ir c r a f t w a s k e p t t h e r e w i t h o u t p a s s e n g e r s d is e m b a r k i n g ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: N o I d o n o t. It r e a c h e d i ts p a r k i n g
b a y a t 1 2 m i n u t e s p a s t th r e e a n d 4 5 s e c o n d s .

P a r k i n g b a y o n th e

n o r t h e r n s i d e o f O R Ta m b o . H o w l o n g t h e p e o p l e w e r e o n t h e a ir c r a f t I
d o n o t k n o w. I t is n o t w i t h in o u r d o m a in .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W h y – w h a t w o u ld b e t h e n o r m a l r e a s o n f o r C iv il

Av i a ti o n A u th o r i ty t o s a y l e t t h e p a s s e n g e r s n o t d is e m b a r k w e h a v e
g iv e n a p p r o v a l ? W h a t w o u l d b e t h e n o r m a l r e a s o n s ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Judge

th is

may

r e q u ir e

some

s p e c u l a ti o n a n d ( i n te r v e n e ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e ) . I t i s n o t w it h y o u r ( i n t e r v e n e ) .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

There may be reasons for no

foreign operator permit.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
20

T h e r e m a y b e a p r o b l e m w i t h th e

a ir c r a f t it s e l f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

O r it m a y b e g r o u n d e d f o r s o m e

reason …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Or it may even be that there could

Page 96 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
b e a c o m m u n ic a b l e d is e a s e r e p o r t e d o n th e a ir c r a f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: T h e r e a r e s o m a n y d i ff e r e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: P o t e n t i a l o p t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

C o u ld I j u s t r e f e r y o u t o – I

ju s t w a n t t o s h o w y o u s o m e d o c u m e n t s .

Yo u w i ll i n d ic a te t o th e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e th e r t h o s e d o c o m e to y o u r a tt e n ti o n a s AT N S .
10

Yo u

h a v e a b u n d l e E X H I B I T F F 8 . I t is n e x t to y o u t h e r e . I f y o u c o u l d ju s t
r e fe r t h e w i tn e s s t o th a t b u n d l e . I f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e t u r n t o p a g e 2 8 .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: I h a v e p a g e 2 8 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W o u l d t h is ty p e o f d o c u m e n t l a n d a t
y o u r d e s k a s AT N S ?

I t i s a r e q u e s t f o r d i p l o m a t ic o v e r fl i g h t a n d

la n d i n g c l e a r a n c e .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: N o . I t w i ll n o t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t w il l n o t . Yo u h a v e n o t s e e n …
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t m u s t p r o b a b ly g o to I n t e r n a t io n a l R e l a ti o n s

D e p a r t m e n t.
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , y e s .

N o I j u s t w a n t e d to k n o w

w h e t h e r t h e y d o s u b m it a n y o f t h e s e d o c u m e n ts to t h e m a n d t h e n i f y o u
go to – would it be the same as the one appearing at page 31 because
it is a d d r e s s e d to S e n io r C o n t r o ll e r A ir C o m m a n d U n it . T h a t w o u l d g o
t o W a te r k l o o f.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ye s .

T h a t w i ll b e a d d r e s s e d t o a

Page 97 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M il i ta r y O ffi c i a l n o t c iv il ia n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t - n o t c o m e t o y o u , th a n k y o u . Th a n k
you and then let us go back to your statement.

Yo u w e r e a t p a g e 2 7

a n d y o u h a v e h i g h li g h te d th e i n s tr u c t io n fr o m C A A a n d is th e r e a n y t h i n g
e ls e y o u w o u l d l ik e t o h i g h li g h t?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

N o m a ’a m .

T h a t i n fo r m a ti o n is a ll

covered.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
10

I h a v e d e s c r ib e d w h a t h a p p e n e d

there.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n i n c o n c l u s io n w h a t d o y o u

s a y in c o n c lu s i o n ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

“ AT N S is a n a v i g a t io n

s e r v ic e p r o v id e r, p r o v i d e s a ir t r a ff ic s e r v i c e s t o a n y
fl ig h ts b a s e d o n fl i g h t p l a n s r e c e iv e d . O n c e a f li g h t
p l a n i s r e c e iv e d w e p r o c e s s a n d e n s u r e s a fe
o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e a ir c r a f t w it h in t h e a i r s p a c e u n d e r
o u r j u r is d ic t io n .

B y p r e v e n ti n g c o l li s i o n s b e tw e e n

a ir c r a f t a n d o n a m a n o e u v r in g a r e a b e t w e e n a ir c r a f t
20

a n d o b s tr u c t io n s a n d e x p e d i t in g a n d m a i n t a i n i n g a n
o r d e r ly fl o w o f tr a ffi c . ”
T h a t is r e a lly t h e m a n d a t e o f AT N S a n d th a t i s w h a t w e h a v e e x e c u t e d
in t h is in s t a n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u a n d t h e n w h e n a p l a n e y o u
h a v e m o n it o r e d t h a t a ir c r a f t . W o u ld y o u b e c h a r g in g fo r t h a t s e r v i c e ?

Page 98 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Ye s .

We would charge for that

s e r v ic e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r i n t h i s i n s t a n c e
y o u w e r e p a id o r y o u c h a r g e d J e t A ir w a y s a n d y o u w e r e p a id ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

I h a v e c o n fi r m e d w i t h o u r F in a n c e

D e p a r t m e n t t h a t w e d i d is s u e a n i n v o ic e a n d t h a t w e w e r e p a id .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d d i d y o u n o t k n o w h o w m u c h t h a t
in v o ic e w a s ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:
10

I th in k t h e in v o ic e w a s f o r a b o u t

2 000 – R10 200. I cannot remember the exact numbers.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Do you charge per hour or per

minute?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Remember we charge per weight

p e r d is t a n c e f l o w n . S o t h is w o u ld h a v e b e e n f o r t h e d is t a n c e f lo w n b y
t h e a ir c r a f t a n d t h e m a x i m u m t a k e - o ff w e i g h t o f th e s p e c i f ic Ai r b u s 3 3 0 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Yo u d o n o t t a k e i n to a c c o u n t th e l a n d i n g

weight because …
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S: N o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

B y th a t ti m e fu e l h a s b u r n e d a n d t h e

a ir c r a f t is l ig h t e r ?
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

N o b e c a u s e th e n y o u w il l h a v e a

c o n ti n u o u s d is c r e p a n c y i n h o w y o u b il l .

S o G o v e r n m e n t G a z e tt e

p u b lis h e d w ill r e f e r to m a x i m u m t a k e - o ff w e i g h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

S o w e w il l tr e a t e v e r y b o d y th e

Page 99 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
same.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u M r M a r a i s . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . T h a n k y o u
f o r h a v i n g c o m e t o g i v e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n .

Th a n k y o u

very much.
M R H E N D R I K J A C O B U S M A R A I S:

Thank you

Judge.

It was

a

p r i v i le g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Thank you.

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

T h e s e a r e t h e w i t n e s s e s w h o w e r e s c h e d u l e d fo r t o d a y b u t w e c o u l d
d e a l w it h t h e r e c o r d s b e c a u s e I w a n te d to p l a c e o n r e c o r d ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: How – how come we – you had such short witnesses.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e s ti ll h a v e q u i t e s o m e ti m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . W e a r e g o i n g to j u s t c h e c k w h o
e ls e w e c a n b r i n g f o r w a r d d u r i n g t h e l u n c h b r e a k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i ll c h e c k w h o w e c o u ld b r i n g fo r w a r d
during the lunch break, yes.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th e r e a n o t h e r o n e w h o y o u h a d p l a n n e d f o r l a te r in
the day?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o w e d i d n o t p l a n a n y o th e r w i tn e s s . W e
p l a n n e d t h e s e t w o w i t n e s s e s fo r t h e d a y b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: But they were very short. How did that happen?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e ll w e d id n o t k n o w th a t t h is …

Page 100 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a r t i n s w a s v e r y l i m it e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O b v i o u s l y h e w a s – h e d i d n o t e v e n n e e d t o ta k e a n
h o u r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h is w i tn e s s a ls o j u s t d id le s s t h a n t w o – w e ll

a b o u t w h a t ? O n e a n d a h a lf h o u r s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e c o u l d h a v e b e e n l e s s t h a n a n h o u r.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e ll m a y b e w e m is j u d g e d …
CHAIRPERSON: So they were very short.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

W e m is j u d g e d th e m a n d a ls o b e c a u s e

t h e s e w i t n e s s e s - t h e a v a il a b il i ty o f o t h e r w it n e s s e s w a s a ls o a
d i ff ic u l ty. F o r i n s t a n c e th e w i t n e s s w h o w e c a l l t o m o r r o w w a s s u p p o s e d
t o t e s t if y to d a y a n d th a t i s o n e o f t h e l o n g e s t w i t n e s s e s b u t t h e n i t
tr a n s p ir e d t h a t s h e c a n n o t c o m e a t a l l. T h e n w e h a d to r e s c h e d u le f o r
the 3rd.
CHAIRPERSON: But why was I not told about these challenges?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e c h a l le n g e o f t h e w i tn e s s e s b e i n g s h o r t
20

t o d a y I d i d n o t a n t ic i p a te th a t . I s a w t h e s t a te m e n ts . T h e y w e r e s h o r t
b u t s o m e ti m e s w i tn e s s e s w i th s h o r t s ta t e m e n ts th e y g o o v e r b o a r d a n d
t h e y t a k e l o n g e r b u t I c o u l d a f t e r l u n c h p la c e o n r e c o r d w h a t w e h a d
r e c e i v e d fr o m th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r b e c a u s e th a t i s s o m e t h in g th a t w e
w a n t t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d a n d a l s o d e a l w i t h t h e – t h e a p p lic a ti o n – th e
s u b p o e n a – t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e s u b m i t te d o n s u b p o e n a b u t t h a t

Page 101 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
w i ll n o t t a k e l o n g .
CHAIRPERSON: What is there for the rest of the week?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: We have got two witnesses. One witness
w h ic h i s a l o n g w i t n e s s f o r to m o r r o w.

W e h a v e g o t t w o w i tn e s s e s o n

t h e 4 t h . W e h a v e g o t t w o w i tn e s s e s o n – t o m o r r o w is t h e 3 r d . J a , t h e
3 r d . T h e 3 r d th e r e i s o n e w i t n e s s w h ic h i s a l o n g w it n e s s . Th e 4 t h w e
h a v e g o t t w o w i tn e s s e s a n d t h e 5 t h w e h a v e g o t t w o w i tn e s s e s a n d
m a y b e a t h i r d w i t n e s s o n t h e – o n th e 4 t h a n d t h e n o n t h e 5 t h w e h a v e
g o t t w o w i t n e s s e s a s w e ll .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, no.

I – I t h i n k I s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t o ld i f th e r e

w a s g o i n g t o b e t h is – th is c h a ll e n g e b e c a u s e w e n e e d t o tr y a n d u s e
a l l t h e t i m e a v a il a b l e t o u s . O k a y. Yo u w ill ta lk t o m e a n d le t m e s e e
t h e s t a te m e n t s f o r th e w i t n e s s e s fo r t h e r e s t o f t h e w e e k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th a t w e c a n t r y a n d m a k e s u r e th a t w e d o n o t r u n
in t o t h is p r o b l e m i f i t a ll p o s s ib l e f o r t h e r e s t o f t h e w e e k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a id y o u m i g h t g e t a n o t h e r w i t n e s s b u t y o u a r e

n o t s u r e fo r l a t e r ?
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e c o u ld – m a y b e if w e c o u l d a d j o u r n f o r
fi v e m i n u t e s . I c o u l d j u s t e s t a b l is h a n d th e n le t y o u k n o w M r C h a i r m a n
but they …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g w o u ld t h a t w i t n e s s b e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t i s d i ff ic u l t t o te ll M r C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e

t h e s ta t e m e n ts t h e y a r e s h o r t b u t t h e w it n e s s e s c a n b e r e f e r r e d t o

Page 102 of 103

002 JULY 2019 – DAY 125
v a r io u s o t h e r d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e n t a k e s l o n g e r b u t I c o u l d if y o u g i v e
u s fiv e m i n u t e s . W e w il l e s t a b l is h t h a t a n d t h e n le t y o u k n o w b e f o r e 1
o’ clock.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, no.

It is n o t g o o d if y o u a r e n o t a lr e a d y s u r e .

O k a y. I t h i n k w e w i ll h a v e to a d j o u r n u n t il t o m o r r o w. Yo u w il l t a lk t o
m e a b o u t t h e r e s t o f th e w e e k fr o m t o m o r r o w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a ll w e h a v e f o r t h e d a y. W e w i ll a d jo u r n u n t il
tomorrow morning at 10. We adjourn.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 3 J U LY 2 0 1 9

Page 103 of 103