C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R 1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N 0 2 J U LY 2 0 2 0 D AY 2 2 9 22 Woodlands Drive Irene Woods, Centurion TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088 MOBILE: 066 513 1757 info@gautengtranscribers.co.za CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER 158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN DATE OF HEARING: 02 JULY 2020 TRANSCRIBERS: B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH Page 2 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 0 2 J U LY 2 0 2 0 CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? A D V S O N I S C : We a r e re a d y C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y a l ri g h t . T h a n k yo u . Please a d m i n i st e r t h e o a t h o r a ff i rm a t i o n . R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e st a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r t h e r e c o r d ? M R O E L L E R M A N : C l i n t o n O e l l e rm a n . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a ve a n y o b j e ct i o n t o t a ki n g t h e p r e s c ri b e d o a t h ? 10 MR OELLERMAN: Not. REGISTRAR: D o y o u co n si d e r t h e o a t h t o b e b i n d i ng o n y o u r c o n s ci e n ce ? MR OELLERMAN: I do. REGISTRAR: D o yo u s w e a r t h a t t h e e vi d e n c e y o u w i l l g i v e w i l l b e t h e t ru t h ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h i n g e l s e b u t t h e t ru t h i f so p l e a s e ra i se yo u r ri g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e God. M R O E L L E R M A N : S o h e l p m e G o d . Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: 20 T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h . I d o n o t kn o w whether to welcome you Mr Oellerman or not. M R O E L L E R M A N : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Ye s t h a n k yo u . Ye s M r Soni. ADV SONI SC: Thank you Chairperson. C h a i rp e r s o n c a n I b r i e f l y i n t r o d u c e t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t M r O e l l e rm a n i s g o i n g t o Page 3 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 be giving? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. A D V S O N I S C : M r O e l l e rm a n h a s p re p a r e d a r e p o rt a n d y o u w i l l r e c a l l M r C h a i r p e r s o n a ri si n g f ro m M s N g o ye ’s a ff i d a vi t i n t h e S i y a n g e n a R e vi e w A p p l i c a t i o n q u e st i on s a r o s e a b o u t t h e p r o p e rt y t r a n s a ct i o n s t h a t M r M o n t a n a h a s e n t e r e d i n t o a n d s o m e o f w h i c h y o u h a ve b e e n o n a i r w h i c h e vi d e n c e w a s l e d i n t h e l a st t w o d a y s. A n d t h e q u e st i o n r e a l l y i s, i s t h e r e a c o n n e ct i o n b e t w e e n t h e S i y a n g e n a c o n t r a ct s a n d t h o s e 10 p r o p e rt y t r a n s a ct i o n s. N o w w h a t M r O e l l e r m a n h a s d o n e a n d t h e q u e st i o n r e a l l y i s, h o w d o w e p r e s e n t a l l o f t h a t e vi d e n ce to you and of course to the public in the manner that f a ci l i t a t e s a p r o p e r u n d e r st a n d i n g o f a l l t h e e vi d e n c e . One c o u l d l e a d t h e e v i d e n ce o f 2 0 w i t n e s s e s a b o u t i t s s a l e a n d so on but these are – this is documentary evidence. Mr O e l l e r m a n h a s b e e n a t t h e h e a rt o f c o l l e ct i n g t h e d o c u m e n t s re l a t i n g t o t h e p r o p e rt i e s. A n d b a s e d o n t h a t h e p re p a r e d i n i t i a l r e p o rt s w h i c h d e a l t w i t h t h e – t h e d i ff e r e n t st a g e s o f t h e t r a n s a ct i o n s i n re s p e ct o f e a c h p a rt y. 20 Then about three w e e k s a g o C h a i r p e r s o n w e w e r e t r yi n g t o f i n d o u t h o w w e c o u l d g e t t h e e vi d e n ce o f M r v a n d e r Wa l t t h e n w e f o u n d o u t t h a t h e h a d l e f t t h e c o u n t r y. A n d i t i s t h e n t h a t w e re q u i r e d o f M r O e l l e rm a n w h o t h ro u g h a s u b p o e n a a c q u i re d t h e d o cu m e n t s t h a t M r L o u b s e r p r e se n t e d y e st e r d a y. And that t h r e w a q u i t e d i ff e r e n t l i g h t o n t h e p r o p e rt i e s t r a n s a ct i o n s Page 4 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 a n d t h e p o s si b l e l i n k w i t h t h e S i y a n g e n a c o n t r a ct s. Now we t h o u g h t t o p r e s e n t t h a t i n a m a n n e r t h a t p u t s a l l t h e f a ct s i n p e r s p e ct i v e a n d w i t h o u t f o r m i n g c o n cl u si o n s a t t h i s st a g e i t p u t s t h e f a ct s i n p e r s p e ct i v e M r O e l l e r m a n w o u l d d r a w u p a re p o rt o f h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n a s a t t h i s st a g e . So that is the e vi d e n c e t h a t h e i s g o i n g t o l e a d h e’s p re p a re d a d e t a i l e d re p o rt a n d I w i l l g o t h ro u g h t h e r e p o rt w i t h h i m . Now C h a i r p e r s o n a s a p r e l i m i n a r y t o t h a t a n d a g a i n i n t h e i n t e r e st o f f a i r n e s s t o e v e r y b o d y a f t e r M r O e l l e r m a n p r e p a re d t h e 10 re p o rt r e p o rt s w e r e s e r v e d o n a l l i f I m a y ca l l i t t h a t i m p l i c a t e d p a rt i e s o r p a rt i e s w h o a r e p o s s i b l y m e n t i o n e d . A m o n g t h e m a r e T M M a n d M r F e r re i r a . The reports were s e r v e d o n t h e m a n d o n M o n d a y o r o n Tu e s d a y w e r e c e i v e d a n o t e f r o m M r F e r re i r a ’s a n d T M M ’ s l a w y e r s t o s a y b u t y o u s h o u l d n o t l e a d t h e e vi d e n c e o f M r O e l l e r m a n b e ca u s e w e w a n t t o p r e s e n t o u r o w n e vi d e n c e o n t h e m a t t e r. b y w a y a l e t t e r. But it was T h e c o m m i s si o n w r o t e b a c k C h a i r p e r s o n t o s a y, i f yo u d o n o t w a n t M r O e l l e r m a n ’s e vi d e n c e t o b e l e d a t t h i s st a g e b ri n g a n a p p l i ca t i o n a s y o u a r e e n t i t l e d t o d o i n 20 t e r m s o f t h e r u l e s t o s a y, w e l l p o st p o n e i t u n t i l t h i s d a t e a n d t h i s – t h e p r e j u d i c e w i l l b e s u ff e r i n g a n d o u r a p p r o a c h w o u l d b e i f y o u w a n t m o r e t i m e w e w i l l g l a d l y g i v e y o u m o re t i m e . I n f a ct , w e w i l l c o n s u l t w i t h yo u n e x t w e e k a n d yo u c a n – w e c a n l e a d a l l t h e e vi d e n ce a t t h e sa m e t i m e . We r e c e i v e d a l e t t e r t h i s m o r n i n g o r l a t e y e st e rd a y C h a i r p e r s o n t o s a y, w e l l Page 5 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t h e y w a n t t o a p p l y t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e M r O e l l e rm a n a n d M r L o u b s e r. S o I p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d j u st t o i n d i c a t e t h a t t h e r e w e re allegations that it would be unfair to lead Mr O e l l e r m a n ’s e vi d e n c e a t t h i s st a g e a n d w h e n w e a s k e d f o r t h e p r o p e r p r o ce d u r e t o b e f o l l o w e d t h e r e s p o n se i s, w e l l w e w a n t t o c ro s s - e x a m i n e . Now that is an application that will o b vi o u sl y b e m a d e t o y o u C h a i r p e r so n a n d I w i l l j u st a l e rt y o u t o i t b u t t h a t i s w h e re w e a r e a t t h i s st a g e a n d a s f a r a s the 10 c o m m i s s i o n ’s c o n ce r n e d we legal a re team entitled to in the lead PRASA the st r e a m e vi d e n c e of is Mr O e l l e r m a n a t t h i s st a g e . CHAIRPERSON: N o t h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h . O k a y. Let us continue. ADV SONI SC: Ye s. M r O e l l e rm a n y o u h a v e h e a r d I h a v e e x p l a i n e d t o t h e C h a i r p e r so n t h e g e n e si s o f t h e r e p o rt . MR OELLERMAN: Hm. ADV SONI SC: C a n y o u i n d i c a t e t o t h e C h a i r p e r so n i n – i n w h a t yo u r r o l e i s i n r e g a r d t o t h e r e p o rt s ? M R O E L L E R M A N : O k a y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: We l l I g u e s s t h i s i s – t h e b e g i n n i n g i s h i s re l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e co m m i s si o n . M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t i s t h e b e g i n n i n g . Ye s. MR OELLERMAN: So Chair I Page 6 of 224 am appointed as an 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 i n v e st i g a t o r a t t h e c o m m i s si o n . I a m c u rr e n t l y o n e – l e a d i n g t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n w i t h t h e P R A S A t e a m l o o ki n g i n t o v a r i o u s c o n t r a ct s i n v o l vi n g PRASA and allegations around st a t e capture. T h e – m y i n v o l v e m e n t w i t h t h e – w i t h t h i s p a rt i c u l a r m a t t e r c o m e s f r o m n u m e r o u s d o c u m e n t s w h i c h w e l o o ke d t h r o u g h d u ri n g t h e c o u r s e o f o u r i n v e st i g a t i o n . Va ri o u s c o u rt p a p e r s, a ff i d a vi t s w h i c h h a d b e e n o b t a i n e d i n o t h e r m a t t e r s 10 p r i o r o u r i n v e st i g a t i o n . O n e o f w h i c h w a s o f M s M a rt h a Ngoye t e st i f i e d who has also here before – at the c o m m i s si o n a s w e l l . A n d o n e o f t h e a ff i d a vi t s w h i c h w e – w h i c h w e l o o k e d at d u ri n g the course of i n v e st i g a t i o n was her founding a ff i d a vi t i n t h e S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r w h e r e P R A S A h a d b r o u g h t a n a p p l i c a t i o n t o h a v e t h e S i ya n g e n a c o n t r a ct se t a s i d e . One of the key matters which Ms Ngoye raised in the a ff i d a vi t o n w h y t h e co n t ra ct s h o u l d b e s e t a si d e w e re re l a t e d t o c e rt a i n f i n a n ci a l d e a l i n g s b e t w e e n t h e P R A S A’s G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t i v e O ff i ce r, M r L u c k y M o n t a n a a n d a n 20 attorney Mr Riaan Va n Der Wa l t who had re p r e s e n t e d S i y a n g e n a o n v a ri o u s m a t t e r s i n t h e p a st . I n f a ct , M s N g o y e i n t h e a ff i d a vi t w e n t s o f a r a s t o s a y t h a t a c ri m i n a l d o c k e t h a d b e e n o p e n e d a t – a t B ro o kl y n p o l i c e st a t i o n a s a re s u l t o f w h a t t h e y r e f e r r e d p o t e n t i a l l y c o r r u p t a ct i vi t i e s. Page 7 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 These a ct i vi t i e s a ct u a l l y refer to related or to f i n a n c i a l – t h e f i n a n ci a l d e a l i n g s w h i c h s h e re f e rr e d r e l a t e d t o f o u r p r o p e rt y t ra n s a ct i o n s i n v o l v e d M r M o n t a n a a n d M r v a n D e r Wa l t i n w h i c h f o u r p r o p e rt i e s w e r e p u r c h a s e d . F i r st o f a l l , i t w a s – t h r e e p r o p e rt i e s w e r e p u r c h a s e d a n d o n e p r o p e rt y w a s p u r c h a se d f r o m M r M o n t a n a . T h e f o u r p r o p e rt i e s e vi d e n c e h a s b e e n l e d a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n o n t h e se p ro p e rt i e s. Th a t i s t h e P a r k w o o d p r o p e rt y, a p r o p e rt y i n Wa t e r kl o o f , a p r o p e rt y i n S a n d h u r st a n d a p r o p e rt y i n 10 B u rl i n g h a m . What is also mentioned is w h i l st these f i n a n ci a l d e a l i n g w e re t a ki n g p l a c e S i y a n g e n a w a s a t t h e s a m e t i m e d u ri n g t h e s a m e p e ri o d e n g a g e d i n e xt e n d i n g o r h a vi n g a n a d d e n d u m t o t h e i r c o n t r a ct c o n cl u d e d w i t h – t h e y w e re i n n e g o t i a t i o n s w i t h P R A S A t o h a v e t h a t co n t r a ct e xt e n d e d t o t h e v a l u e o f j u st o v e r R 8 m i l l i o n I t h i n k i t i s R 2 9 4 m i l l i o n . A n d b e c a u se o f t h i s i t w a s a l l e g e d t h a t t h e – t h e s e re l a t i o n s h i p s in which these parties as c o n t r a ct o r and s e r v i ce p ro v i d e r r a i s e d si g n i f i c a n t r e d f l a g s b e ca u s e o f w h a t 20 – o f t h e s e f i n a n ci a l d e a l i n g s t h a t w e r e i n v o l v e d a s w e l l . We have d o cu m e n t a t i o n , then obtained subsequently f u rt h e r re vi e w e d documents during the the c o u r s e o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n , i n t e r vi e w e d a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e , l o o k e d a t a ff i d a vi t a n d s o u r c e s o f i n f o r m a t i o n a t t a c h e d t o t h e i r a ff i d a vi t s a n d t h a t j u st cu l m i n a t e d i n a su m m a r y r e p o rt Page 8 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 w h i c h I h a v e t h e n p u t t h e re . A D V S O N I S C : A n d i n r e g a r d t o t h e d o c u m e n t s p ro v i d e d b y M r L o u b s e r w h a t w a s t h e si g n i f i c a n c e o f t h o s e d o cu m e n t s M r Oellerman? MR OELLERMAN: Ye s S i r. As Mr Soni pointed out we i n i t i a l l y t ri e d t o m a k e c o n t a ct w i t h M r v a n D e r Wa l t . We s u b se q u e n t l y l e a r n e d t h a t h e i s n o l o n g e r i n t h e c o u n t ry. We then made c o n t a ct with Mr Loubser who after we had p r o vi d e d h i m a s u m m o n s g a v e u s a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n t s 10 w h i c h h e h a d se c u r e d f ro m t h e i r o ff i c e s. With – in a m o n g st those documents were bank st a t e m e n t s r e l a t e d t o a n e n t i t y c a l l e d P r e ci s e Tr a d e a s w e l l l e t t e r s w h i c h o r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n M r v a n D e r Wa l t a n d M r L o u b s e r a n d h i s p a rt n e r s w h i c h s e t o u t a n u m b e r o f e x p l a n a t i o n s r e g a rd i n g t h e se p r o p e rt y t r a n sa ct i o n s. A n d t h e re w e r e a l s o r e f e r e n c e s t o c e rt a i n – c e rt a i n c o n t r a ct s w h i ch h a d b e e n e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h e n t i t i e s vi a M r v a n D e r Wa l t a n d t h o se e n t i t i e s h a d p a i d m o n e y i n t o P r e ci s e Tr a d e ’s b a n k a c c o u n t . A n d a r e vi e w o f t h e b a n k a c c o u n t a n d 20 M r L o u b s e r ’s e x p l a n a t i o n s i t w a s cl e a r t h a t r e f e r e n c e s h a d b e e n m a d e i n M r va n d e r Wa l t ’s h a n d w r i t i n g o n w h i c h e n t i t i e s d e p o si t e d w h i c h m o n i e s o n w h i c h d a t e s. One of the entities mentioned was TMM which has a cl o s e a s s o ci a t i o n w i t h S i y a n g e n a a n d M a ri o F e rr e i ra w h o a l s o h a s a cl o s e a s s o ci a t i o n w i t h t h e t w o e n t i t i e s. Page 9 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: N o w i n y o u r re p o rt y o u – y o u d e t a i l a number of issues and you seem to have dealt with two of t h e m a t t h i s st a g e n a m e l y j u st t h e g e n e r a l b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e n t h e so u r c e s o f i n f o rm a t i o n . N o w t h a t w o u l d I b e co r r e ct t h a t p a rt o f y o u r r e p o rt i s f r o m p a r a g r a p h 1 t o p a r a g r a p h 11 , i s t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r y e s. CHAIRPERSON: We l l M r S o n i b e f o r e y o u g o i n t o t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e re p o rt w i t h t h e w i t n e s s, w e n e e d t o h a v e t h e 10 – h i s r e p o rt a d m i t t e d . A D V S O N I S C : A b s o l u t e l y ri g h t C h a i rp e r s o n . S o … CHAIRPERSON: Do you ask that I admit it as Exhibit SS18 t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e a n n e x u r e s t h e re t o ? ADV SONI SC: Ye s a s yo u p l e a se Chairperson I am indebted to you. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o rt b y – t h e p r e l i m i n a r y re p o rt on the c o m m i s si o n ’s i n ve st i g a t i o n into Mr Lucky M o n t a n a ’s i n v o l v e m e n t i n p r o p e rt y t ra n s a ct i o n s i n 2 0 1 4 a n d 2 0 1 5 c o m p i l e d b y Mr C l i n t o n O e l l e r m a n t h a t i s O - e -l - l - e - r- m 20 a-n-n for the benefit of the transcribers is admitted together with its annexure as Exhibit SS18. ADV SONI SC: Ye s. And again, j u st for references purposes it will be contained in Bundle H Chairperson. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t w i l l – i t i s co n t a i n e d i n B u n d l e H . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Page 10 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV SONI SC: As you please. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV SONI SC: N o w i n p a r a g r a p h s 11 t o 1 5 yo u d e a l w i t h t h e so u r c e s o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n a n d y o u h a v e a l r e a d y d e a l t w i t h t h a t v a ri o u s t ra n s a ct i o n s [ 0 0 : 1 4 : 2 3 ] y o u g o t f ro m M r Loubser and so on. g a ve y o u . Chairperson… CHAIRPERSON: 10 I n p a rt i c u l a r t h e b a n k st a t e m e n t t h a t h e I g a t h e r – I a m s o r ry. n e e d t o g e t t h i s o u t o f t h e w a y. I guess also we We n e e d t o a s k M r O e l l e r m a n t o c o n f i rm t h a t i t i s h i s – h i s r e p o rt . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. A s y o u p l e a s e C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: M r O e l l e r m a n d o y o u c o n f i rm t h a t E x h i b i t S S 1 8 w h i c h b e g i n s f r o m p a g e – I se e t h a t i t s a y s p a g e 3 . M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: It should be page 1 is it not? It should be p a g e 1 b e ca u s e t h e o t h e r t h i n g s a r e t h e i n d e x. ADV SONI SC: C h a i r p e r s o n w h a t I su s p e ct h a s h a p p e n e d a n d I o n l y j u st s a w i t n o w t h a t y o u h a ve p o i n t e d o u t i s t h e re 20 is a… C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , t h e re i s a n a ff i d a vi t ? A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s ri g h t . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. Oh, but then – then where is page 2? Oh, there is page 2. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, M r C h a i r p e r so n . Page 11 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: N o t h e n I u n d e r st a n d . Okay I think what w e w i l l d o i s yo u s e e t h e f r o m o u t s i d e t h e r e i s n o i n d i c a t i o n t h a t t h e r e i s a l s o t h e a ff i d a vi t so I t h i n k t h a t w e s h o u l d s a y E x h i b i t S S 1 8 w o u l d b e t h e a ct u a l r e p o rt a n d w e m a k e – w h a t s h a l l w e m a k e t h e a ff i d a vi t ? B e c a u se i t n e e d s t o b e – w e will make it Exhibit SS18a. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. T h e a ff i d a vi t o f M r C l i n t o n O e l l e r m a n o n t h e 1 7 J u n e 2 0 2 0 w h i ch a c c o m p a n i e s h i s r e p o rt w i l l b e 10 admitted as Exhibit SS18a. A D V S O N I S C : A s y o u p l e a s e C h a i rp e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w e – w e n e e d h i m t o – h a v e yo u a l re a d y co n f i rm e d , d i d t h e y a s k y o u t o c o n f i rm a n d y o u c o n f i r m e d M r O e l l e r m a n yo u r r e p o rt o r n o t y e t ? M R O E L L E R M A N : N o t ye t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that Exhibit SS18 is your re p o rt ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r y e s. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Soni. 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : A n d C h a i r c a n I – I c a n a l so j u st c o n f i r m t h i s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR OELLERMAN: T h a t t h e r e p o rt i s t i t l e d p re l i m i n a r y re p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. Page 12 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 MR OELLERMAN: And the litigations are ongoing. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. N o , n o t h a t i s f i n e . MR OELLERMAN: A n d t h e re p o rt w i l l b e u p d a t e d a s t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n c o n t i n u e s. CHAIRPERSON: No, no that is fine. I think by the very n a t u r e o f – o f – w e l l a ct u a l l y I d o n o t e ve n k n o w w h e t h e r i t s h o u l d b e c a l l e d a re p o rt . c o n f u si n g . Maybe that is what may be A s I u n d e r st a n d i t i s – i t i s j u st y o u s a yi n g w h a t y o u ca m e a cr o s s a s y o u w e r e i n v e s t i g a t i n g . 10 M R O E L L E R M A N : A t t h i s st a g e y e s , c o r r e ct C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: J a a t t h i s st a g e a n d l a t e r o n i f a n d w h e n y o u h a v e m o r e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t c h a n g e s t h e si t u a t i o n – t h e p i ct u r e or that confirms the picture you will put that i n f o r m a t i o n b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n . M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r so n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y a l ri g h t . A D V S O N I S C : A n d j u st o n t h a t p o i n t M r O e l l e rm a n t h e i d e a is you point out later in your so-called r e p o rt is that e v e n t u a l l y y o u w i l l p r e s e n t e ve r yt h i n g i n a f i n a l r e p o r t . 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct y e s C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : A f t e r h e a ri n g t h e o t h e r si d e a n d s o o n . MR OELLERMAN: Ye s t h e re a re a d d i t i o n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n s going w h i ch on as well involved detailed flow of fund a n a l y si s o f v a ri o u s p a rt i e s s o t h a t w i l l a l l b e i n c o r p o r a t e d i n t o t h e f i n a l r e p o rt . Page 13 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A D V S O N I S C : T h e n f r o m p a r a g ra p h s 1 8 t o 2 3 y o u d e a l w i t h t h e b a c kg r o u n d a n d y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t a l re a d y i n g e n e r a l t e rm s t h a t w h i l st t h e s e p ro p e rt y t ra n s a ct i o n s w e r e being negotiated and processed there was this parallel p r o c e s s o f S i y a n g e n a a c q u i ri n g m a j o r c o n t ra ct s w i t h P R A S A . M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct y e s. ADV SONI SC: A n d i f I c o u l d j u s t s u m m a ri s e w h a t t h a t i s a n d y o u c o u l d j u s t c o n f i r m w h e t h e r t h a t i s co r re ct ? In June 2 0 1 4 t h e r e w a s a R 2 . 4 b i l l i o n c o n t r a ct , i s t h a t c o r r e ct ? 10 M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct y e s. ADV SONI SC: Between Siyangena and PRASA. And then in September 3 months later there was the R800 million e xt e n si o n o f t h a t c o n t r a ct . M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Chairperson although it is not contained in t h i s, I h a v e j u st p u t s o m e c o n t e xt t o i t . Yo u w i l l re c a l l C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t M s N g o y e st r e s s e d o n t h e f i r st o c c a si o n s h e g a v e e vi d e n c e a n d t h e n a g a i n w h e n sh e g a v e e vi d e n ce e a rl i e r t h i s w e e k t h a t t h a t c o n t r a ct t h e y o n l y d i s c o v e r e d t h e 20 R 8 0 0 m i l l i o n c o n t ra ct w h e n t h e y st o p p e d S i ya n g e n a f r o m c a r r yi n g o n s o m e w o r k a n d S i y a n g e n a ru s h e d o ff t o c o u rt a n d g o t a n i n t e r d i ct p r e v e n t i n g P R A S A f r o m d o i n g s o . A n d i n s u p p o rt o f t h e i r cl a i m f o r t h e R 8 0 0 m i l l i o n t h e y p r o d u c e d t h i s c o n t r a ct w h i c h P R A S A s a w f o r t h e v e r y f i r st t i m e . A n d I j u st place on record because it is contained here that it was Mr Page 14 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M o n t a n a w h o h a d si g n e d t h a t c o n t r a ct o n t h e 3 0 S e p t e m b e r on behalf of PRASA. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: The R800 million. CHAIRPERSON: I st i l l w a n t t o b e r e m i n d e d w h e t h e r m y – b u t I w a n t y o u r c o n f i r m a t i o n t h a t m y m e m o r y i s co r re ct t h a t t h e r e w a s t h i s o n e co n t r a ct o r a d d e n d u m t o a c o n t r a ct t h a t M r M o n t a n a h a d si g n e d w i t h o u t a n y k n o w l e d g e o f a n y o n e else at PRASA. Is that the one or is that another one? 10 ADV SONI SC: That is it. That is the one. CHAIRPERSON: That is the one. ADV SONI SC: That is the one. CHAIRPERSON: nobody who W h e r e – d o y o u r e ca l l w h e t h e r t h e r e i s w i t n e s se d his si g n a t u r e there or w h o e ve r witnessed was not somebody from PRASA? ADV SONI SC: We d i d n o t c a n v a s s t h a t w i t h M s N g o ye b e ca u s e a s I u n d e r st o o d t h e y w e re si m p l y n o t a w a r e o f t h e c o n t r a ct C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s I t h i n k – I t h i n k t h e r e w a s – I t h i n k i t w a s d u ri n g M s N g o ye ’s e vi d e n c e e a rl i e r i n t h e y e a r w h e n I heard evidence about a document or an agreement or a d d e n d u m t h a t I t h i n k n o - o n e e l s e a t P R A S A kn e w a n yt h i n g a b o u t i t e x c e p t M r Mo n t a n a b e c a u s e h e h a d si g n e d i t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I think I looked at – I wanted to see who Page 15 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 h a d si g n e d a s a w i t n e s s. I cannot remember whether there w a s n o b o d y w h o h a d s i g n e d a s a w i t n e s s t o M r M o n t a n a ’s si g n a t u r e o r t h e r e w a s so m e b o d y a n d I h a v e t h e i m p re s s i o n that I may have asked Ms Ngoye whether she knew the si g n a t u r e o r s o m e t h i n g . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: A n d e i t h e r I d i d n o t – I a s k e d h e r a n d sh e s a i d n o s h e d i d n o t kn o w w h o i t w a s o r m a y b e I d i d n o t a s k h e r. I i n t e n d e d t o a s k a n d n e ve r a s k e d . 10 ADV SONI SC: Can I – can I ask this Chairperson? We h a ve t h e c o n t r a ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: Can we look at it? CHAIRPERSON: Later in due course. ADV SONI SC: At tea time. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: And I will… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: Look at it and then we can canvass it. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Mr O e l l e r m a n d o e s w h a t I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t ri n g a b e l l w i t h y o u ? M R O E L L E R M A N : I t d o e s C h a i r. I t a p p e a r s t o b e t h e s a m e c o n t r a ct b u t I w o u l d a l s o j u st l i k e t o c o n f i r m t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t w e a r e – h a v e t h e s a m e t h i n g . Page 16 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t o ka y. O k a y. A D V S O N I S C : We w i l l c h e c k t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y. Because I – it may be that there i s s o m e si g n i f i c a n c e i n t h e f a ct t h a t n o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s t o M r M o n t a n a ’s si g n a t u r e w a s a si g n a t u r e o f s o m e b o d y f r o m within PRASA. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e m a y b e s o m e si g n i f i c a n c e t o t h a t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – j a o k a y. ADV SONI SC: Ye s. B u t w e w i l l l o o k a t i t j u st n o w Chairperson. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: Then Mr Oellerman we go into the four p r o p e rt i e s. N o w c a n I j u st p u t t h i s i n c o n t e xt . M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: In what one may call the main part of the re p o rt y o u s i m p l y s u m m a ri se a l l t h e f a ct s r e l a t i n g t o e a ch o f t h e p r o p e rt i e s, w o u l d t h a t b e co r re ct ? 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t i s t o g i ve a b r o a d o v e r a l l p i ct u r e w i t h o u t b e i n g b o g g e d d o w n b y i n d i vi d u a l f a ct s a n d i n d i vi d u a l d o c u m e n t s a n d s o o n . M R O E L L E R M A N : I n d e e d C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: B u t i n o r d e r t o sh o w t h a t a l l w h a t y o u r Page 17 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 s u m m a r y i n t h e m a i n r e p o rt i s b a s e d o n d o cu m e n t a t i o n t h a t i s i n y o u r p o s s e s si o n y o u h a ve a t t a c h e d m o r e d e t a i l e d re p o rt s i n r e s p e ct o f e a c h o f t h e p ro p e rt i e s. MR OELLERMAN: Th a t i s c o r re ct C h a i r. So what – what I d i d w a s f o r e a c h p r o p e rt y t h e r e i s a n i n d i vi d u a l r e p o rt w h e r e a l l t h e s o u r c e d o c u m e n t i s a t t a c h e d t o t h a t p a rt i c u l a r r e p o rt . S o t h a t t h e r e w i l l b e f o u r o f t h o s e r e p o rt s. They are a n n e x u r e s t o t h e m a i n r e p o rt . T h e m a i n r e p o rt t h e n s e t s o u t a s u m m a r y o f w h a t t r a n s p i r e d m o r e g e n e r a l l y g i vi n g co n t e xt 10 t o t h e – t h e i n d i vi d u a l r e p o rt s. ADV SONI SC: So you for example would have heard the e vi d e n c e y e st e r d a y o f M r K a r e n D e B e e r. M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . ADV SONI SC: N o w t h a t d e a l s w i t h t h e Wa t e r kl o o f p r o p e rt y a n d a l l h e r a ff i d a vi t a n d t h e o t h e r m a t t e r s s h e d e a l t w i t h a r e c o n t a i n e d i n t h e a n n e x u r e t o – t o yo u r m a i n r e p o rt . M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: A n d l e t u s j u st g e t t h a t f o r m a l i t y o u t o f t h e w a y. T h e r e a r e f o u r a n n e xu r e s t o y o u r r e p o rt , a m I c o r r e ct ? 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: And each of these annexures deals with t h e i r p ro p e rt i e s? M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct . ADV SONI SC: T h e f i r st a n n e x u r e i s O R 1 w i t h w h i ch p r o p e rt y d o e s t h a t d e a l Page 18 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 MR OELLERMAN: That would be the sale of the Parkwood p r o p e rt y. ADV SONI SC: Right. And then OR2? M R O E L L E R M A N : O R 2 i s t h e Wa t e r kl o o f p ro p e rt y. ADV SONI SC: Right. And OR3? M R O E L L E R M A N : O R 3 i s t h e S a n d h u r st p ro p e rt y. ADV SONI SC: And OR4? CHAIRPERSON: Hang on, hang on, hang on. ADV SONI SC: Oh I am sorry Chairperson. 10 CHAIRPERSON: see OR3. I was able to see OR1. O R 2 o k a y. Where is OR2? I I think the problem is that when I – y o u k n o w t h e d i vi d e i n p a g e s w h e r e y o u h a v e O R w h a t e v e r w ri t t e n i t i s b e t t e r i f t h e y a r e t h e s a m e c o l o u r. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: H e h a s d i ff e r e n t c o l o u r s. So when I see t h e f i r st o n e O R 1 a n d I s e e i t i s t h i s g r e e n l i g h t c o l o u r i n c o l o u r w h e n I l o o k f o r O R 2 I a m l o o ki n g f o r a g r e e n – a si m i l a r c o l o u r. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: S o t h o s e – s o t h e y m u st n o t c h a n g e b e ca u s e i f I s e e p i n k, I t h i n k i t m u st b e s o m e t h i n g e l s e . A D V S O N I S C : S o m e t h i n g e l se , y e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – b u t i f i t i s t h e s a m e c o l o u r. A D V S O N I S C : N o a b s o l u t e l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h e l p s. Page 19 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . A D V S O N I S C : E s p e ci a l l y i f t h e y a re m a r k e d . CHAIRPERSON: If they are – if the – if you – if you use a c e rt a i n c o l o u r t o d i vi d e d i ff e r e n t s e ct i o n s o f t h e l e v e r a r ch f i l e i t i s b e t t e r t o u s e t h e s a m e c o l o u r. A D V S O N I S C : T h e sa m e c o l o u r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d o t h e r w i s e b e c a u se I a m b u s y l o o ki n g f o r t h i s c o l o u r. 10 ADV SONI SC: No sure. CHAIRPERSON: That is what the colours how they have b e e n d o i n g i t i n t h e p a st . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: S o I m i s s t h i s c o l o u r b e ca u s e n o w t h i s i s c re a m , w h i t e o r y e l l o w. Okay thank you. Now I have found OR2 and OR3 you are about to go to OR4. A D V S O N I S C : O R 4 a n d w h i ch p r o p e rt y d o e s O R 4 d e a l w i t h Mr Oellerman? M R O E L L E R M A N : O R 4 i s t h e H u rl i n g h a m p r o p e rt y C h a i r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV SONI SC: C h a i r p e r s o n c a n I g e t t h i s o u t o f t h e w a y? Yo u a s k e d m e a b o u t t h e a d d e n d u m . I t i s a n n e x u r e FA 2 0 9 b u t w e h a v e c o l l e ct e d i n a f i l e w h i c h I w i l l h a n d u p t o y o u a t a l a t e r st a g e a n d I a m b u t b e f o r e I d o t h a t m a y I j u st p o i n t this out? T h a t t h e a n n e x u r e i s si g n e d b y S i y a n g e n a M r Page 20 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Reddy who was mentioned at being at that meeting you m i g h t re m e m b e r t h a t M s N g o y e t a l k e d a b o u t w i t h t h e D G . S h e a n d M r D u b e k w e r e a t t h a t m e e t i n g . A n d i t i s si g n e d b y M r M o n t a n a a n d t h e r e a p p e a r e d t o b e t w o w i t n e s se s a n d i t may be that – and it is not something I recall immediately but I w i l l c h e c k t h e r e c o r d b u t i t i s si g n e d b u t i t m a y b e t h a t w h e n y o u a s k e d M s N g o ye sh e c o u l d n o t r e c o g n i s e t h o s e p e r s o n s. CHAIRPERSON: Do I have it here or I do not have it here? 10 A D V S O N I S C : Yo u d o n o t h a v e i t n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. ADV SONI SC: I will hand it up in their file. CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. But we would need to k n o w w h e t h e r t h e p e o p l e w h o si g n e d a s w i t n e s s e s a r e PRASA people or not. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Or whether all the witnesses were w i t n e s s e s o f t h e o t h e r p a rt y t o t h e a g r e e m e n t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Ye s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. T h e n – M r O e l l e rm a n w h e n f o r e x a m p l e M s K a r e n D e B e e r g a v e e vi d e n c e a n d w h e n M r G r e e n g a v e e vi d e n c e y e st e r d a y i t s h o w e d a n u m b e r o f d i ff e r e n t p a rt i e s seemingly being involved and then eventually the Deed of Tr a n sf e r r e c o r d s t h a t t w o o f t h e p r o p e rt i e s w e re t r a n sf e r r e d Page 21 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t o P r e ci s e Tr a d e a n d o n e o f t h e p r o p e rt i e s w a s t r a n sf e r r e d t o Ms Montana himself. What one needs to do for the C h a i r p e r s o n a n d f o r t h e p u b l i c a s a w h o l e i s t o j u st t r y a n d s u m m a ri se i n a s e n s e ve r y b r i e f l y a l l t h e va ri o u s st e p s i n t h e t ra n s a ct i o n s s o t h a t ri g h t a t t h e e n d o n e c a n s a y b u t w h y w o u l d a l l o f t h e s e t h i n g s h a p p e n a n d a c o n t r a ct i s – a n d t h e se a re n o t s m a l l c o n t r a ct s. M o r e t h a n R 1 0 m i l l i o n e a ch o f them. M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. 10 ADV SONI SC: I s – t h e r e i s a d i ff e r e n t p a rt y t o w h o m t h e p r o p e rt y i s co n c e r n e d . A n d w e w i l l d e a l w i t h t h a t . B u t w h e n y o u a r e d o i n g y o u r s u m m a r y o f e a c h o f t h e p r o p e rt i e s i f yo u could keep that in mind. M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: S o y o u t h e n t a l k a b o u t t h e f o u r p r o p e rt i e s a n d t h a t t h e f i r st p a rt i s a n i n t ro d u c t o r y p a rt . We h a v e h e a r d e vi d e n c e o n t h a t a n d w e n e e d n o t d e a l w i t h t h a t – t h e v a r i o u s p r o p e rt i e s w e k n o w t h e r e a re f o u r p r o p e rt i e s . So if y o u co u l d st a rt a t p a r a g ra p h 2 7 a n d d e a l w i t h t h e P a r k w o o d 20 p r o p e rt y. MR OELLERMAN: Sure. So j u st with regard to the P a r k w o o d p ro p e rt y, t h i s w a s a p r o p e rt y t h a t M r M o n t a n a o w n e d h i m s e l f a n d h e s u b s e q u e n t l y s o l d t h a t p r o p e rt y t o P r e ci s e Tr a d e . I n i t i a l l y h e b o u g h t t h e p r o p e rt y f o r a b o u t R 1 . 8 5 m i l l i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 22 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h a t i n 2 0 0 8 ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r so n . Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR OELLERMAN: H i s b a n k h a d v a l u e d t h e p r o p e rt y a r o u n d 2012 for about R2.5 million. H o w e v e r, i n M a y 2 0 1 4 , P r e ci s e Tr a d e m a d e h i m a n o ff e r f o r R 6 . 8 m i l l i o n f o r t h e p r o p e rt y w h i c h , a s I s a y, w a s a b o u t R 3 m i l l i o n m o re t h a n w h a t h i s b a n k h a d v a l u e d t h e p r o p e rt y a t t h e t i m e . And 10 in the detailed r e p o rt we had c o r re s p o n d e n c e between Mr Montana and his bank where that sets - where he had set that out. Mr Montana, o b vi o u sl y, accepted the o ff e r and the p r o p e rt y w a s p a i d f o r t h r o u g h P r e ci s e Tr a d e t o a n u m b e r o f p a ym e n t s o ve r a p e ri o d o f t i m e . ADV SONI SC: J u st o n t h a t p o i n t . There are two unusual features that you are alluding to. What are those? M R O E L L E R M A N : S o f i r st l y t h e p r o p e rt y i s v a l u e d a t a r o u n d R3.5 million. M r M o n t a n a g e t s a v e r y g e n e r o u s o ff e r o f R 6 . 8 m i l l i o n f o r t h e p r o p e rt y. 20 I m e a n e v e n f a c t o ri n g i n s o m e e s c a l a t i o n o v e r - o f p r o p e rt y v a l u e o v e r 2 0 m o n t h s, i t se e m s t h e p r o p e rt y t h e v a l u e h a d i n cr e a s e d si g n i f i c a n t l y. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR OELLERMAN: A n d h e , o b vi o u sl y, a c c e p t e d t h e o ff e r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 23 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R O E L L E R M A N : . . . f o r t h e p r o p e rt y C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s w i t h i n l e s s t h a n t w o y e a r s. M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r t h e e v a l u a t i o n m a d e b y t h e b a n k. M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: So and the bank valued it at three point? MR OELLERMAN: R3.5 million. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 M R O E L L E R M A N : R o u n d a b o u t A u g u st 2 0 1 2 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. S o . . . so w a s i t . . . d i d h e g e t a b o u t d o u b l e t h e - o r c l o s e t o d o u b l e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t h e v a l u e o f t h e p r o p e rt y. M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct , ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. H ’ m . MR OELLERMAN: And there is also – I mean there is no re a l e vi d e n c e t h a t si g n i f i c a n t a d d i t i o n s h a d b e e n d o n e t o t h e p r o p e rt y b e c a u s e su b s e q u e n t t o M r M o n t a n a si g n i n g t h e 20 d e a l , t h e a d d e n d u m t o t h e o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e b y P r e ci s e Tr a d e w a s si g n e d i n w h i c h s o m e o n e r o u s o b l i g a t i o n s w e re placed on Mr Montana to fork out for improvements to the p r o p e rt y a t h i s o w n c o st . C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . S o o n y o u r i n v e st i g a t i o n i n r e g a r d t o M r M o n t a n a ’s i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h e s e p r o p e rt i e s, t h e sa l e o f Page 24 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t h i s p r o p e rt y o f h i s t o P r e ci s e Tr a d e w h i c h i s M r v a n d e r Wa l t ’s co m p a n y, m a r k s t h e f i r st p r o p e rt y t ra n s a ct i o n b e t w e e n M r M o n t a n a a n d P re c i se Tr a d e . I s t h a t ri g h t ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n t e r m s o f t h e s e p r o p e rt i e s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t h a t y o u h a v e l o o k e d o f t h e f o u r? M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s. A n d t h e n , t h i s i s. . . t h i s h a p p e n s i n 2014. M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t ri g h t ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR OELLERMAN: Th e o ff e r was made roundabout May 2014. CHAIRPERSON: About May 2014? M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: 20 S o y o u w i l l l a t e r o n w i l l r o u n d o ff t h e l a st o n e o f t h e f o u r p r o p e rt i e s - t h e l a s t o n e o f t h e t r a n s a ct i o n s h a p p e n s s o m e t i m e i n 2 0 1 5 . I s t h a t ri g h t ? O r t o w a r d s e n d o f 2014? MR OELLERMAN: The p ro p e rt i e s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: By end of 2014? Page 25 of 224 are all c o n cl u d e d 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R O E L L E R M A N : E n d o f 2 0 1 5 . Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: By end of 2015? M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m? M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR OELLERMAN: T h e p ro p e rt i e s o r t h e i n i t i a l o ff e r s a r e m a d e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 MR OELLERMAN: ...2014. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR OELLERMAN: Although the p r o p e rt y t r a n sf e r s a n d c o n cl u si o n s r u n i n t o 2 0 1 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. T h e a ct u a l sa l e s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . o c cu r - a l l o c c u r i n 2 0 1 4 ? M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e t r a n sf e r s - s o m e o f t h e t ra n s f e r s o r t h e t r a n sf e r o f o n e o f t h e m m i g h t g o i n t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: ...2015. MR OELLERMAN: S o j u st a s a n e x a m p l e . I mean, in the P a r k w o o d p r o p e rt y, t h e o ff e r w a s m a d e i n A u g u st 2 0 1 2 b u t t h e t r a n sf e r w a s o n l y a ff e ct e d i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y. Page 26 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A D V S O N I S C : S o t h e o ff e r w a s m a d e i n 2 0 1 4 ? M R O E L L E R M A N : S o rr y, 2 0 1 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R O E L L E R M A N : 2 0 1 4 . A n d t h e n t h e t r a n sf e r w a s e ff e ct e d i n F e b ru a r y 2 0 1 5 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. O k a y. B u t i n t h e e n d , p a rt o f t h e p o i n t a b o u t M r M o n t a n a ’s i n vo l ve m e n t i n t h e s e t ra n s a ct i o n s, i n t h e s a l e s o f p r o p e rt i e s w i t h P re c i s e Tr a d e a n d M r v a n d e r Wa l t i s t h a t , d u ri n g 2 0 1 4 , t h e r e a re - t h e r e w e r e v a r i o u s 10 agreements or tenders or b u si n e s s being c o n d u ct e d b e t w e e n P R A S A a n d S i y a n g e n a . done, being A n d - j a , o k a y. Thank you. MR OELLERMAN: Ja. ADV SONI SC: A n d j u st t o p u t t h a t i n p e r s p e ct i v e . The R 2 . 4 b i l l i o n c o n t r a ct w a s si g n e d o n t h e 3 0 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 4 . I s t h a t ri g h t . M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e a d d e n d u m w a s si g n e d o n . . . i n September by Mr Montana on the 30th of September? 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct . ADV SONI SC: 2014 again. CHAIRPERSON: M a y, the sa l e S o . . . s o t h e P a r k w o o d p r o p e rt y i s s o l d i n agreement is co n cl u d e d in May between M o n t a n a a n d P r e c i s e Tr a d e . I s t h a t ri g h t ? And then in Ju n e , then that Page 27 of 224 c o n t r a ct is c o n cl u d e d 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 between PRASA of which Mr Montana was the CEO and Siyangena? M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR OELLERMAN: t ra n s a ct i o n s T h e n t h e re m a i n i n g t h r e e p r o p e rt i e s, t h e would have happened b e t w e e n A u g u st and O ct o b e r 2 0 1 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. Ye s. O k a y. ADV SONI SC: 10 Now Mr Oellerman, until Mr Loubser gave y o u t h e d o c u m e n t s, w e r e y o u a w a re o f h o w p a y m e n t s h a d been made or who had made payments and so on? MR OELLERMAN: N o t a t t h a t st a g e . I t w a s p a rt o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s a t t h a t st a g e . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s, C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: B u t h e t h e n g a v e y o u t h e d o c u m e n t s. Now one of the documents that he gave you was the bank st a t e m e n t o f P r e ci s e Tr a d e . M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s. . . y e s. 20 ADV SONI SC: Is it? M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n , t h a t a p p e a r s a t B u n d l e G . I t i s Exhibit SS16 and it is at page 190. I t m a y b e u se f u l f o r y o u t o h a v e i t i n f ro n t o f y o u C h a i r p e r s o n . I sa y t h a t w i t h re s p e ct b e ca u s e t h e r e a r e m a t t e r s t h a t I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h h e r e . Page 28 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: No, that is fine. I think if you do not a l re a d y h a v e , i t w o u l d b e co n v e n i e n t t o h a v e . . . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r o r n o t t o c a l l i t a t a b l e w h i c h s a y l i k e Ma y M o n t a n a ’ s t a b l e s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: M r M o n t a n a ’s s e l l s h i s P a r k w o o d p r o p e rt y t o P re c i se w h o s e s o l e d i r e ct o r i s M r va n d e r Wa l t w h o i s a n a t t o r n e y r e p re s e n t i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Siyangena. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. CHAIRPERSON: J u n e 2 0 1 4 , P R A S A c o n cl u d e s o r p r o vi d e s, gives a tender to Siyangena for so much but also the q u e st i o n o f w h o si g n s t h a t a g r e e m e n t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , t h a t co n t r a ct . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: And then, go throughout the ye a r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: p r o p e rt i e s. . . . t o s a y, “ H e r e i s w h a t h a p p e n s a b o u t H e r e i s w h a t h a p p e n s i n t e rm s o f b u si n e s s b e t w e e n S i y a n g e n a a n d P R A S A ”. Page 29 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: And who gets involved, and that is where we need to also look at the... at what was happening to the l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t . Some of the I h a v e g o t M s N g o ye a n d M r D i n g i s w a y o . things that were happening to them . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, w e c a n . . . Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: . . . w i t h . . . t h e y n e e d t o b e f a ct o r e d i n t h e r e as well. 10 ADV SONI SC: Ah, I see. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n , i t h a s j u st o c c u rr e d t o m e . We s h o u l d d o t w o t h i n g s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. ADV SONI SC: And that is to have a table but also have a p i ct o ri a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. ADV SONI SC: B e c a u s e i t g i ve s o n e a b i r d ’s e y e - vi e w o f . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. ADV SONI SC: ...the whole thing. C H A I R P E R S O N : E x a ct l y. J a , j a . A D V S O N I S C : B e c a u s e t h e o t h e r w i s e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : . . . p u t i t a l l t o g e t h e r. Page 30 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: But we will do that Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. ADV SONI SC: And we will do it soon as well. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, j a . If Ms Renata is on top of these t h i n g s, s h e c o u l d d o i t w h i l e w e a re c o n t i n u i n g a n d b y t e a b r e a k i t s h o u l d . . . i t w o u l d b e re a d y. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t i s j u st a b o u t 2 0 1 4 u p t o 2 0 1 5 . 10 A D V S O N I S C : 2 0 1 5 . Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s t h o s e i t e m s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja , o k a y. I w o u l d h a v e l i ke d t o h a v e i t b e f o r e h e f i n i s h e s h i s e vi d e n c e i f p o s si b l e . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l ri g h t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t n e c e s s a ri l y t h e p i ct o ri a l o n e . ADV SONI SC: No, no. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st t h e t i m e t a b l e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. CHAIRPERSON: ...the table. Ja. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. ADV SONI SC: N o w, i f y o u l o o k a t t h e b a n k a c c o u n t M r Page 31 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 O e l l e r m a n , y o u w i l l s e e t h a t t h e g r e e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o so r ry. that has been handed up. Yo u r e f e r re d t o a b u n d l e Is that the one I should look at now? A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s. . . Ye s. Ye s, C h a i r. I a m s o r ry. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: It is Bundle G, Exhibit SS16, page 190. It is a n a n n e x u r e t o M r L o u b s e r ’s a ff i d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . T h a n k yo u . 10 A D V S O N I S C : N o w, y o u d e a l w i t h , i n p a r a g r a p h s 4 a n d 5 . . . p a r a g ra p h s 3 1 a n d 3 2 , y o u sa y t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t p ro v i d e d f o r a d e p o si t o f R 2 . 5 m i l l i o n . I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . ADV SONI SC: At page 32. M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct , C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : A l ri g h t . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o rr y M r S o n i . Yo u r e f e r r e d t o p a r a g ra p h 3 2 . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u . . . o f h i s r e p o rt ? A D V S O N I S C : O f M r O e l l e r m a n ’s r e p o rt , y e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J a , o k a y. ADV SONI SC: And you make the point that in terms of the agreement, the amount, the deposit was to be paid on the 1 8 t h , b e f o r e t h e 1 8 t h o f J u n e . A h , s o s o r r y. T h e d e p o si t w a s Page 32 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t o b e p a i d b y t h e 4 t h o f J u n e a n d p a ym e n t s h a d t o b e m a d e between June 2014 and February 2015. M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct , C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: A n d i s t h a t w h a t h a p p e n e d i n r e g a rd t o t h e p a ym e n t s ? MR OELLERMAN: No, it appears not. It appears that p a ym e n t s f r o m P r e ci s e Tr a d e d i ff e r e d t o w h a t w a s s e t o u t i n the purchase agreement. p a ym e n t s. 10 The d e p o si t They were made over a series of i t se l f was not R2.5 million but R2.225 million that was made. A D V S O N I S C : A l ri g h t . A n d c a n I t h e n j u st a s k y o u t o l o o k a t t h e b a n k st a t e m e n t w h i c h i s a t B u n d l e G ? A n d c a n yo u re a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d t h e d e p o si t s m a d e i n t o P r e ci s e Tr a d e ’s account on the 18th of June 2014? MR OELLERMAN: a r e r e f l e ct e d . C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e r e a r e t w o d e p o si t s t h a t T h e o n e . . . t h e f i r st o n e i s f o r R 1 . 8 5 m i l l i o n . . . R 1 8 5 0 0 0 0 . B e l o w t h a t i s a n o t h e r d e p o si t f o r R 4 m i l l i o n . ADV SONI SC: Ye s. A n d i f y o u l o o k a t t h e , I j u st p o i n t o u t t h a t t h e h a n d w ri t i n g a g a i n st t h o s e n u m b e r s i t s a y s T M M 20 loan. M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct . ADV SONI SC: H’m. M R O E L L E R M A N : Mr L o u b s e r i n d i c a t e d i n t h e i r i n t e r a ct i o n s w i t h h i m t h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t h a d c o m m u n i c a t e d t o t h e m i n t h e i r c o r r e sp o n d e n c e t h a t t h a t - t h a t m o n e y w a s d e p o si t e d Page 33 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 b y T M M a n d t h e s e . . . t h o s e w e r e h i s, M r v a n d e r Wa l t ’s o w n h a n d w ri t i n g inscriptions that are re f l e ct e d on the bank st a t e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e j u st r e m i n d e v e r y b o d y w h o T M M i s in relation to Siyangena. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s, s o . . . I t h i n k M s N g o y e co v e r e d i t q u i t e e xt e n si v e l y i n h e r e vi d e n ce a s w e l l . 10 T M M h a s a cl o s e a s s o ci a t i o n w i t h S i y a n g e n a w i t h i n t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t w e h a ve seen. There is correspondence where Siyangena c o n f i r m s t h a t T M M a s si st s t h e m i n t h e e xe c u t i o n o f t h e i r c o n t r a ct s. CHAIRPERSON: D o e s - d i d yo u i n v e st i g a t i o n r e v e a l t h a t Siyangena appears to be a subsidiary of TMM or not really but they might be owned by the same person or persons or t h e y m i g h t h a v e c o m m o n d i r e ct o r s ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Ja , a t t h i s st a g e , I w o u l d s a y t h e y h a v e a cl o s e a s s o ci a t i o n w i t h . . . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. MR OELLERMAN: ...between the two co m p a n i e s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR OELLERMAN: T M M p l a y s a n i m p o rt a n t r o l e i n t h e e x e cu t i o n o f t h e S i y a n g e n a c o n t r a ct . Page 34 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR OELLERMAN: T h a t i s - o r t h e re l a t i o n s h i p i s c o n f i r m e d i n t h e c o rr e s p o n d e n ce . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : I s cl o s e . . . MR OELLERMAN: ...to PRASA which we have seen as well. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: And Mr F e r r e i r a ’s ro l e s in TMM and Siyangena? MR OELLERMAN: 10 C o rr e ct . S o f r o m t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t w e h a v e re v i e w e d , h e p l a y s a n a ct i v e r o l e i n b o t h T M M a n d in Siyangena. ADV SONI SC: A n d j u st a g a i n . One of the documents that M r L o u b s e r h a n d e d i n y e st e r d a y w a s a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n T M M a n d h i m s e l f - o h , so r ry, a n d M r F e rr e i r a o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d M r va n d e r Wa l t o n t h e o t h e r h a n d , b e i n g a j o i n t v e n t u r e f o r c e rt a i n d e v e l o p m e n t s. Yo u have seen that d o cu m e n t ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s, I h a v e s e e n t h e d o c u m e n t a n d I c a n confirm that is one of the documents that was given to us by 20 M r L o u b s e r. Th e d o c u m e n t , e s s e n t i a l l y, a p p e a r s t o b e a n a g r e e m e n t w h e r e o p p o rt u n i t i e s f o r i n v e st m e n t s w o u l d b e s o u g h t b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d p r e s e n t e d t o T M M o r t o M r M a ri o F e rr e i r a a ct i n g o n b e h a l f o f T M M . ADV SONI SC: N o w, t h e f i r st w i t h d r a w a l f r o m t h i s a c c o u n t as on the papers we have, is made on the same day as Page 35 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 p a ym e n t i s m a d e o f t h o s e t w o a m o u n t s o f R 1 . 8 m i l l i o n a n d R4 million by TMM. M R O E L L E R M A N : Th e w h a t ? ADV SONI SC: What is that payment for? Can you...? MR OELLERMAN: is r e f l e ct e d h a n d w ri t i n g in T h a t a p p e a r s t o b e f o r t h e d e p o si t w hi c h the p u r ch a s e inscription n e xt agreement. to it, Although, appears to read the as guarantee. ADV SONI SC: 10 Ye s. A n d y o u re a d t h e e x p l a n a t i o n t h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t g a v e t o Mr L o u b s e r a n d M r v a n W y k w h e n t h e y a s k e d h i m q u e st i o n s? Mr Loubser sent... I mean, annexed four letters at the exchange. M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . ADV SONI SC: And in terms of Mr van der Wa l t ’s explanation, what was that R2.25 million ...[intervenes] MR OELLERMAN: I t a p p e a r s t o b e a . . . f o r h i s e x i st i n g . . . o n e o f h i s e xi st i n g p r o p e rt i e s, t h e g u a r a n t e e w h i c h t h e b a n k had called up, that payment would be made towards that g u a r a n t e e o f o n e o f t h e e xi st i n g p a rt i e s. 20 That would be d i re ct l y i n t o h i s o t h e r p ro p e rt y t h a t h e o w n e d . A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h e P a r k w o o d p r o p e rt y t r a n s a ct i o n h a s a cl a u s e w h i c h s a y s t h a t t h e R 2 , 5 m i l l i o n m a y b e p a i d t o e xt i n g u i s h t h e b o n d o n - t h e e xi st i n g b o n d o n M r M o n t a n a ’s Wa t e r kl o o f p ro p e r t y. M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct , C h a i r. Page 36 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: A l ri g h t . N o w, c a n I j u st a s k y o u i f y o u l o o k a t t h e f u rt h e r w i t h d r a w a l s f r o m t h e a c c o u n t a n d I r e f e r y o u t o t h a t m a d e o n t h e 1 8 t h o f A u g u st , t h e f i r st o n e m a d e o n t h e 1 8 t h o f A u g u st . Wo u l d t h a t . . . w o u l d i t b e c o r r e ct t o s a y t h a t w a s f o r R 11 0 8 0 0 , 0 0 M r O e l l e r m a n ? MR OELLERMAN: C o rr e ct . I h a v e i t a s t h e 1 8 t h o f J u l y. 18th of July 2014. A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. I t i s t h e 1 8 t h o f J u l y. S o r ry. M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . 10 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. A n d w h a t i s i t re f l e ct e d a s o n t h e b a n k account itself? MR OELLERMAN: Th e r e a r e t h re e p a y m e n t s t h a t a r e . . . o r t w o p a ym e n t s t h a t t h e r e a r e t h e r e , b o t h o n t h e 1 8 t h . T h e o n e is R 11 0 8 0 0 , 0 0 R350 00,00. and the one d i r e ct l y below that A n d t h e y re f l e ct t h e s a m e i n f o r m a t i o n . is I t sa y s Montana payment, both of them. ADV SONI SC: And in terms of the schedule that Mr van der Wa l t g a v e t o h i s p a rt n e r s, i s h e s a yi n g t h a t t h a t w a s i n re s p e ct o f . . . 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : P r o p e rt y. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s, this co r re s p o n d s with the e x p l a n a t i o n t h a t w a s g i v e n b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t t o h i s p a rt n e r o n h o w p a ym e n t o f t h e p r o p e rt y w a s e ff e ct e d . ADV SONI SC: T h e n t h e t h i r d p a ym e n t re f l e ct e d i s o f Page 37 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t w e n t y-f o u r t h o u s a n d , o n t h e 2 4 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 4 . R400 000,00. That is for To w h o m d o e s t h e b a n k a c c o u n t r e f l e ct t h e p a ym e n t b e i n g m a d e ? MR OELLERMAN: T h e . . . i t i s r e f l e ct e d a s T L M w h i c h w e u n d e r st a n d t o b e t h e i n i t i a l s o f Ts h e p h o L u c k y M o n t a n a . ADV SONI SC: A n d i n M r v a n d e r Wa l t ’s e x p l a n a t i o n , i s h e s a yi n g t h a t t h a t i s p a rt o f t h e P a r k w o o d ? MR OELLERMAN: I t i s c o n si st e n t w i t h h i s e x p l a n a t i o n a n d t h e s c h e d u l e o f p a ym e n t s w h i c h h e p r o vi d e d t h a t w a s m a d e . 10 A D V S O N I S C : T h e n j u st o n e o t h e r. . . w e l l , t w o o t h e r s t h a t I w a n t t o re f e r yo u t o . . . o r t h r e e o t h e r s. S o r ry. C a n I a s k yo u t o t u r n t o p a g e 1 9 1 ? Yo u w i l l se e i n t h e t h i r d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. CHAIRPERSON: I a m so r r y M r S o n i . S o r ry. H ’ m I w a s j u st m a k i n g a n o t e . W h a t p a g e s h o u l d w e . . . I g o t o ? O n t h i s. . . i s it on the same bundle? A D V S O N I S C : I t i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e st a t e m e n t ? 20 A D V S O N I S C : I t i s p a rt o f t h e b a n k st a t e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p o rt . . . b a n k st a t e m e n t . A D V S O N I S C : I t i s t h e n e xt p a g e o f t h e b a n k st a t e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. ADV SONI SC: Page 191. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 38 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: N o w, 5th of December 2014 and t h e re that is is an for entry a on withdrawal the of R 4 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 . I s t h a t c o r re ct ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct , C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. MR OELLERMAN: The reference is again TLM and it is c o n si st e n t w i t h t h e i n f o r m a t i o n p r o v i d e d b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t . ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e n t h e n e xt w i t h d r a w a l i s o n t h e 15th of January 2015. And what is that for? 10 MR OELLERMAN: That is in the mount of R300 000,00 and t h e d e s c ri p t i o n t h e r e i s T L . ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e e xp l a n a t i o n t h a t M r va n d e r Wa l t g a ve ? MR OELLERMAN: It is co n si st e n t with the series of p a ym e n t s t h a t w e r e m a d e f o r t h e P a r k w o o d p ro p e rt y. A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h e n f i n a l l y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y. A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t w o u l d t h e T L st a n d f o r i n . . . ? 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : We l l , i t . . . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o w e kn o w ? MR OELLERMAN: We l l , M r M o n t a n a ’s n a m e s a r e r e f l e ct e d a s Ts h e p o L u c k y M o n t a n a . TLM. S o t h a t . . . a b o v e yo u w i l l i t i s H e re i t se e m s t o b e r e f l e c t e d a s j u st T L . L u c ky. P o s si b l y Page 39 of 224 Ts h e p o 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s -n o , w h a t I a m t h i n k i n g i s t h a t a l l a l o n g u n t i l n o w, i t l o o k s l i k e t h e y u s e d T L M t o r e f e r t o M o n t a n a . M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Now there is TL. It might not be Montana. M R O E L L E R M A N : I t m i g h t n o t b e b u t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] M R O E L L E R M A N : We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: I want to find out whether we know whether this refers to him or whether it might be somebody else. 10 MR OELLERMAN: We l l , t h e s c h e d u l e t h a t w a s p r o vi d e d b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t , i n d i c a t e d a n a m o u n t o f R 3 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 . This i s c o n si st e n t w i t h t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: On the same day? M R O E L L E R M A N : I t d o e s n o t a l w a y s r e f l e ct t h e d a t e s i n t h e schedule. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. MR OELLERMAN: B u t h e re f l e ct s t h e p a y m e n t s a n d h o w they were made. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 20 M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: But of course, the bank would have the full n a m e s, i s i t n o t ? M R O E L L E R M A N : C o r r e ct . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 40 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R O E L L E R M A N : J a , i t w o u l d b e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: We c o u l d g e t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m t h e b a n k. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e c a n k n o w e x a ct l y w h o T L i s. M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: O b vi o u sl y, if we a re going to get i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t TL , w e m a y a s w e l l g e t i n f o rm a t i o n a b o u t TLM. 10 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: So that we know that we have got that. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t o b vi o u sl y, i f M r v a n d e r Wa l t h a s sa i d T L M re f e rr e d t o L u c k y M o n t a n a , t h a t m a k e s s e n se . M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e m a y a s w e l l g e t e v e r yt h i n g f ro m t h e b a n k. M R O E L L E R M A N : I t i s o n t h e w a y, C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: M a y. . . may I j u st make this point, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON: H’m? ADV SONI SC: And it is contained in the issue you have Page 41 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ra i se d t h a t w e s e e a w i t h d ra w a l f r o m h e r e a n d i t i s s a i d t o b e a payment to Mr Montana but we do not know into which account it was made. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. H’m. ADV SONI SC: N o w i t m a y h a v e g o n e t o Mr M o n t a n a ’s a c c o u n t b u t i t m a y h a ve g o n e t o s o m e b o d y e l s e ’s a c c o u n t . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e n i t j u st b e co m e s t h a t m u c h m o r e cl e a r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. ADV SONI SC: And Ms Solomon has indicated that we w o u l d n e e d t o p u t a l l t h o s e p i e c e s o f t h e p u z zl e t o g e t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : E x a ct l y. Ye s, e x a ct l y. J a , o k a y. A D V S O N I S C : T h e n f i n a l l y o h so r ry, n o t f i n a l l y. On the 5th o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 n o w, t h e re i s a w i t h d r a w a l o f R 3 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 f ro m t h a t a c c o u n t . I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? MR OELLERMAN: T h a t i s c o r r e ct . A n d t h e re f e re n c e h e r e again, it is TLM. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: So on the face of it if b e f o re 1 5 Ja n u a r y 2 0 1 5 , w h e n e v e r t h e re i s a w i t h d r a w a l i n f a v o u r o f TLM, of Mr Montana, they have used TLM and after the date, t h e y h a v e u s e d T L M a g a i n b u t o n t h e 1 5 t h o f J a n u a ry, t h e y h a ve T L . One would think that it might not be the same person. Page 42 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: S o i t i s i m p o rt a n t . N o r m a l l y, y o u w o u l d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : N o . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . y o u w i l l b e c o n s i st e n t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. S o b u t . . . yo u a r e l o o ki n g i n t o i t a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s u n d e r w a y, C h a i r. Ye s. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a . O k a y, t h a n k y o u . ADV SONI SC: p r o p e rt y. And now finally in regard to the Parkwood There is a withdrawal on the 2 0 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 , o f R 2 m i l l i o n . I s t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R O E L L E R M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e ct , C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : A n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR OELLERMAN: T h e r e f e r e n ce t h e r e r e f l e ct s E rf 3 5 9 , P a r k w o o d w h i c h i s t h e d i r e ct r e f e r e n c e t o t h e p r o p e rt y. ADV SONI SC: C h a i r p e r s o n , I w i l l j u st r e m i n d y o u b e ca u s e sometimes one needs to keep this in mind. 20 Yo u w i l l re c a l l t h i s i s a n e n t r y I h a v e r a i s e d w i t h Mr L o u b s e r b e c a u se M r v a n d e r Wa l t h a d sa i d , “t h i s w a s a R 1 , 3 m i l l i o n . . . o h , o h , s o r r y, not t h i s, but on that same date, a l l e g e d l y, R 1 , 3 m i l l i o n l o a n h a d b e e n g i ve n t o M r Mo n t a n a . a I a m j u st t r yi n g , i n a se n s e , t o p r e s e n t a s m u c h o f t h e p i ct u r e a s p o s si b l e w i t h o u t c re a t i n g t o o m u c h c o n f u si o n . Page 43 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 B u t t h a t i s t h e d i ff i c u l t y w h i c h , i n a se n s e , y o u h a v e a l l u d e d t o C h a i r p e r s o n , t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y, yo u c a n n o t t a k e t h i s a t f a ce v a l u e . Yo u h a v e g o t t o c o n n e ct i t w i t h w h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t h a s s a i d a n d y o u h a v e g o t t o c o n n e ct i t w i t h t h e e n d - u s e r ’s b a n k account. N o w, t h e se a r e t h e p a y m e n t s t h a t w e re m a d e i n re s p e ct o f t h e P a r k w o o d p ro p e rt y. I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R O E L L E R M A N : C o rr e ct . O r a t t h i s st a g e , t h a t i s h o w w e 10 u n d e r st a n d t o b e . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. M R O E L L E R M A N : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: N o w, o f c o u r s e . . . a n d y o u a r e q u i t e r i g h t Mr O e l l e r m a n t h a t . . . t h a t i s t h e . . . w h a t M r va n d e r Wa l t h a s s a i d w h a t t h e b a n k st a t e m e n t s p o rt ra y a n d so o n . N o w, a f t e r t h e P a r k w o o d a g r e e m e nt w a s co n cl u d e d f o r R6.8 million, there was an addendum to that agreement. C o u l d yo u v e r y b ri e f l y t e l l t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a b o u t t h a t ? MR OELLERMAN: 20 Ye s, s u r e . S o t h e r e w e re t h r e e . . . j a , t h e a d d e n d u m w a s c o n cl u d e d b e t w e e n P r e ci s e Tr a d e , M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d M r M o n t a n a w h i c h , a s I h a v e a l l u d e d t o a l i t t l e b i t e a rl i e r, re q u i r e d of Mr Montana to m a ke a number of i m p r o v e m e n t s a t h i s o w n c o st s t o t h e p r o p e rt y. A n d t h a t h a d t o b e d o n e o v e r a p e r i o d u n d e r. . . b e f o r e t h e p r o p e rt y w a s re g i st e r e d . M r M o n t a n a t h e n , i t a p p e a r s, Page 44 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 u n d e rt o o k t o co n t i n u e w i t h h a v i n g t h o se i m p r o ve m e n t s d o n e o v e r t h e p e ri o d . What e s se n t i a l l y happened is that co r re s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n M r M o n t a n a a n d M r L o u b s e r sh o w s t h a t ra t h e r t h a n M r M o n t a n a p a yi n g f o r i t , h e w o u l d s e n d c o n t ra ct o r s i n v o i c e s t o M r L o u b s e r. . . ADV SONI SC: No. MR OELLERMAN: S o rr y, t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d re q u e st that he make payment. 10 I n f a ct , t h e r e i s r e f e re n c e t o o n e p a rt i c u l a r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k y o u a r e r e f e r ri n g t o M r L o u b s e r t w o t i m e s w h e n p r o b a b l y y o u m e a n t M r v a n d e r Wa l t . M R O E L L E R M A N : M i st e r. . . Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: J u st f o r t h e r e c o r d . Yo u m e n t i o n e d o n e a ch o c c a si o n t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t . MR OELLERMAN: C o rr e ct . So Mr Montana was c o r r e s p o n d i n g t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d t h e r e i s d o c u m e n t s a n d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h i c h sh o w s t h a t r a t h e r t h a n h i m p a yi n g f o r t h e i m p r o v e m e n t s f o r t h e ki t c h e n a n d e t c e t e ra , t h e r e 20 w e re a n u m b e r o f i m p r o v e m e n t s t h a t w e r e l i st e d i n t h e d o cu m e n t a t i o n . M r M o n t a n a s u b m i t t e d t h e i n v o i c e s t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d r e q u e st e d t h a t h e m a k e p a y m e n t . And as I indicated in o n e o f t h e co r re s p o n d e n c e , h e a ct u a l l y s a y s h e i s u n d e r p r e s s u r e t o p a y t h e c o n t r a ct o r. P l e a s e , ca n y o u p a y a s s o o n Page 45 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 a s p o s si b l e ? S o i t w o u l d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV SONI SC: Now these are the payments that were m a d e i n r e s p e c t o f t h e P a r k w o o d p r o p e r t y, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR OELLERMAN: Correct. At this stage that is how we understand it. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . No, of course, and you are quite r i g h t , M r O e l l e r m a n , t h a t t h a t i s t h e – w h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t has said what the bank statements portray and so on. Now after the Parkwood agreement was concluded 10 for R6,8 million there was an addendum to that agreement, could you very briefly tell the Chairperson about it? MR OELLERMAN: Sure. So with the – an addendum was c o n c l u d e d b e t w e e n P r e c i s e Tr a d e , M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d M r M o n t a n a w h i c h , a s I a l l u d e d t o a l i t t l e b i t e a r l i e r, r e q u i r e d of Mr Montana to make a number of improvements at his own cost to the property and that had to be done over a period before the property was registered. Mr Montana then it appears undertook to continue with having those improvements done over the period. 20 What essentially happened is that correspondence between Mr Montana and Mr Loubser shows that rather than Mr Montana paying for it, he would send contractors’ invoices t o M r L o u b s e r – s o r r y, t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d r e q u e s t t h a t he make payment. In fact, there is reference to one particular …[intervenes] Page 46 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: I think you referred to Mr Loubser two t i m e s w h e n p r o b a b l y y o u m e a n t M r v a n d e r Wa l t . MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: M r v a n d e r Wa l t , y e s . Just for the record you meant – on each o c c a s i o n y o u m e a n t M r v a n d e r Wa l t . MR OELLERMAN: Correct, so Mr Montana was c o r r e s p o n d i n g w i t h M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d t h e r e i s d o c u m e n t s and correspondence which show paying for the improvements. 10 that rather than him For the kitchen, etcetera, there were a number of improvements that were listed in the documentation. Mr Montana submitted the invoices to Mr van der Wa l t and requested that he make payment and as I indicated in one of these correspondence, he actually says he is under pressure to pay the contractors, please can you pay as soon as possible? So it would appear that the addendum itself, rather than Mr Montana paying, he submitted those invoices to Mr v a n d e r Wa l t t o p a y. 20 ADV SONI SC: Mr Oellerman, may I just ask in regard to the improvements? When you look at the bills that Mr M o n t a n a s e n t t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t , w h a t i s t h e a p p r o p r i a t e amount that had to be paid in respect of those up quite improvements? MR OELLERMAN: So the amounts Page 47 of 224 add 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 significantly to over a million, so the one invoice was R525 000 and then there is a number of additional invoices for various improvements that were made throughout. There is even invoices for certain items from a particular chain store for installation of certain equipment for about 40 000 which Mr Montana also submitted those as proof that he paid them. He wanted Mr Loubser to reimburse for t h a t . S o r r y, a g a i n , M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d n o t M r L o u b s e r. ADV SONI SC: 10 Now when one looks at the Parkwood sale as a whole – and I am just asking you as a general impression. What does it suggest? Yo u h a v e a s a l e f o r R6,8 million and then there are these improvements that ought to be made and that is recorded as an addendum. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Wa l t p a y s . Correct. For Mr Montana’s account but Mr van der What is the picture that emerges? I am not asking for a conclusion. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: 20 Ye s . But how should one interpret that? MR OELLERMAN: Well, I mean, if that is indeed the case that Mr Montana sold a property for a significant amount above what would be market value at the time and then despite these improvements being required of him, to i n c r e a s e t h e v a l u e o f t h e p r o p e r t y, o n e c o u l d s a y, h e d o e s not foot the bill for that. Well, then he has benefitted Page 48 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 significantly from this particular transaction and it would be – it would appear to be out of the ordinary for a transaction of this kind. ADV SONI SC: Now just for the reassurance of the Chairperson and whoever is interested in what you have said, you have made a number of comments, this is what the contract provides; this is contained in communications and so on. Are each of those matters contained in annexures to OR1. 10 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , y e s , C h a i r. So if one looks at what you have said in your summary of the Parkwood property and one turns to OR1 you would find certainly documentary backing for all the points you have made. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: property? Oellerman, A l r i g h t , c a n w e t h e n t u r n t o t h e Wa t e r k l o o f Now but T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. you Ms were Karen de not here Beer y e s t e r d a y, gave some Mr vivid evidence and quite unusual evidence and if I could just 20 summarise it, Chairperson, just so that we have context. She says well, Mr Montana lived five houses from her, he came and he made an offer and that fell through and so on. We do not need to go into the details but for me what was significant, is he eventually said – she said to him, look, I want to paint the inside, I want to leave the Page 49 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 house in a good condition for you and he says no, no, no, do not worry, do not go through that expense. I am just presenting her evidence. And she found it quite unusual MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Yes. But, in any case, the sale went through not in the name of Mr Montana – sorry, transfer was not effected in the name of Mr Montana but in the name of Precise Trade. Now you have investigated the various stages in 10 this, could you summarise very quickly for the Chairperson the different stages in the completion of the contact. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Yes. Because – and I ask in this context, Ms de Beer says she did not engage in the detail, she left that to her lawyers. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Right. So if we could just fill in that. MR OELLERMAN: Sure. But perhaps then also for completeness sake, Chair, I can say that what we found in 20 this Waterkloof property is also a consistent theme which appears throughout the other two properties, the Sandhurst property and the Hurlingham property. So it appears that Mr Montana initiates the purchase, he goes and views the properties and all three properties, it transpired to be the same. Page 50 of 224 So he would go 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 and view the property, meet with the estate agent, and if he liked a property then he would say he is interested in the property and sign an offer to purchase. Shortly thereafter Mr Montana would request that the offer to purchase be changed to that of Precise Trade or in another instance, the Minor Trust. A different party. Both in the Waterkloof and the Sandhurst properties, that is exactly what transpired, it went through a series of offers to purchase and it was agreed that the 10 property would be registered in Precise Trade’s amount. In the Hurlingham property he attempted to have it registered in the minor Trust but the owner of the property pushed back and resisted and eventually the property was in his own name but the steps that preceded the registration are consistent in that Mr Montana is at the forefront central to the property acquisition, identifies the property, views the property, goes through the process and then it appears once the property no longer him to be the purchaser but someone else to be the purchaser or Precise 20 Trade to be the ultimate purchaser. So those are essentially what had happened in the Waterkloof property but as I indicated it is a consistent theme across the other three properties. ADV SONI SC: Yes. MR OELLERMAN: Although the Hurlingham property was Page 51 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 unsuccessful and the property was registered in his name. ADV SONI SC: Yes. Now in the Waterkloof property …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: I am sorry, Mr Soni? Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Just to keep track of the timeframes. May 2014 Mr Montana sells his property to Precise Trade for about double the value of the property. June a major contract is concluded between PRASA and Siyangena and 10 Siyangena is represented by Mr van der Walt, as an attorney, is that right or not at that stage? MR OELLERMAN: attorney which Mr van der Walt definitely was an had represented Siyangena in the past because I understand over a period of about eight years. CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Because he had …[intervenes] Yes, okay. Then it seems about August/September another property, namely the Waterkloof property, Mr Montana gets involved. 20 MR OELLERMAN: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Gets interested in buying the property which later ultimately gets bought by Precise Trade. MR OELLERMAN: P r e c i s e Tr a d e , t h a t i s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: But he seems to – he identified the property and sought to have it – he wanted to buy it and Page 52 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 then later on was it the previous trust and then ultimately P r e c i s e Tr a d e . MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: O k a y, I j u s t w a n t t o g i v e t h a t t i m e f r a m e . A b s o l u t e l y, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: addendum Correct. Ye s , y e s , a n d I t h i n k y o u t a l k e d a b o u t a n involving Siyangena around S e p t e m b e r, October? ADV SONI SC: 10 O n t h e 3 0 S e p t e m b e r, C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: O n 3 0 S e p t e m b e r. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. ADV SONI SC: Now in this property a new entity is i n t r o d u c e d n a m e l y t h e M i n o r P r o p e r t y Tr u s t . Have you investigated what that is? MR OELLERMAN: Ye s , t h a t i s a t r u s t w h e r e M r M o n t a n a ’ s children are beneficiaries. ADV SONI SC: By the beneficiaries? MR OELLERMAN: 20 ADV SONI SC: Ye s . And who is the trustee? MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: It is Mr Johan Smith. Who are the other trustees, do you know or not really? MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: I believe he is the only one. The only one? Oh, I did not know you Page 53 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 could be one trustee. ADV SONI SC: Ye s , n o , t h e r e i s a s e c o n d t r u s t e e , Chairperson, it is contained in the annexures but there is a second trustee. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: O k a y, n o , t h a t i s f i n e . But Mr Smith played the key role. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ja, he is the one who plays the – ja. In all of these… CHAIRPERSON: 10 J a , o k a y. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s , j u s t t o q u a l i f y w h a t I a m s a y i n g i s t h a t h e r e p r e s e n t e d t h e M i n o r Tr u s t i n h i s t r a n s a c t i o n s . ADV SONI SC: Now just again where these – was this report served to the best of your knowledge on Mr Smith to say look, your name is going to come up at the Commission? MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: I b e l i e v e i t w a s , y e s , C h a i r. And to your best of your knowledge there has been no response from him? 20 MR OELLERMAN: Not that I am aware of. CHAIRPERSON: And ordinarily you would have been informed if the Commission did a receive a response from him? MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s , c o r r e c t . Ja. N o w t h i s p r o p e r t y w a s s o l d f o r R 11 m i l l i o n Page 54 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 a n d t h e r e w a s a d e p o s i t , s o – s o r r y, M s d e B e e r s a i d s h e became - Mr Montana had made a proposal to her about 18 months earlier before this had happened. She wanted to have nothing to do with him unless a deposit was paid. She insisted on a R3,5 million non-refundable deposit. Now at paragraph 43 of your report you say that there was that deposit that was paid – it is paragraph 43 and 44. 2014. 10 And you say it was paid on the 23 September Can I ask that we look at the bank statement, Chairperson, and again, just for identification sake, this is EXHIBIT SS16 and it is on page 190, Mr Oellerman. Yo u w i l l s e e o n t h e 2 3 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 4 t h e r e i s a d e p o s i t m a d e i n t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e ’ s a c c o u n t . Do you see that? MR OELLERMAN: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: And there is a handwritten indication where that money come from, what does that handwritten…? MR OELLERMAN: 20 ADV SONI SC: It says TMM loan. A n d t h a t w e k n o w w a s M r v a n d e r Wa l t telling his partners. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: T h a t w a s t h e s o u r c e o f t h a t m o n e y. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Correct. That is correct. On the 23rd there is a withdrawal and what Page 55 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 is the amount of that withdrawal? MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI That is for R3.5 million. SC: That is the same amount that was d e p o s i t e d o n t h a t v e r y d a y. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s , i t c o r r e s p o n d s w i t h t h e a m o u n t , with the deposit and the reference reads: “ M i n o r P r o p e r t y Tr u s t l o a n . ” ADV SONI SC: And that was when Mr Smith was involved in this. 10 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Correct. And then there was a further payment of R7,5 million that was due and as set out in Mr van der Wa l t ’ s e x p l a n a t i o n t o h i s p a r t n e r s t h a t w a s p a i d . MR OELLERMAN: Correct, it was paid directly to the attorneys by TMM, as he explained it. ADV SONI SC: So he said to the attorneys, to the conveyancer - to Karen de Beer ’s conveyancers? MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: 20 Correct. And then there is a further – oh, sorry, Chair? CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Let us take the tea break. As you please, Chairperson. Sorry, I get carried away. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: You did not keep your eye on the time. Yes. Page 56 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let us take the tea break and we will resume at half past eleven. We adjourn. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s , M r S o n i ? D o n o t f o r g e t y o u r m i c . Mr Oellerman, may I ask in regard to the Wa t e r k l o o f p r o p e r t y, w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t s o r the official docum ents it shows an offer by Mr Smith then it s h o w s a t r a n s f e r t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. But why should we say that Mr Montana was involved, you deal with in paragraphs 52 onwards of your report, is that correct? I am talking about now the Wa t e r k l o o f p r o p e r t y. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV SONI SC: And Ms de Beer dealt with it quite extensively yesterday but could you summarise his involvement as set out in your report? MR OELLERMAN: 20 Ye s . S o , I m e a n , a s I i n d i c a t e d e a r l i e r, he was – he is quite central to the transaction that he i n i t i a t e d t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e p r o p e r t y. Throughout the transaction he seems to have remained in contact with the s e l l e r. H e w a l k e d t h r o u g h t h e p r o p e r t y, s h e t o o k h i m t h r o u g h t h e p r o p e r t y, t h e r e i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h e r e M s d e Beer – and I think she has given evidence to that effect Page 57 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 where she even informed her neighbours that the new owner of the property is going to be Lucky Montana. S h e w a s q u i t e c o n v i n c e d t h a t , y o u k n o w, d e s p i t e the fact that the property was going to be registered in a different entity’s nam e that he was still the person t hat was going to be the person who takes over the property from her and in addition to that, there is regular contact with h e r, t h e k e y s , e t c e t e r a , t h a t w e r e h a n d e d o v e r, i t a p p e a r s that he remained throughout the process to be involved. 10 If it was purely a question of I am scouting for property for someone else, one would not expect to see Mr Montana remaining in the picture and being constantly included in communications, being constantly in contact w i t h t h e s e l l e r o f t h e p r o p e r t y, e t c e t e r a , i t w o u l d t h e n j u s t be a purely commercial transaction between the entity and the purchaser and their lawyers, etcetera, etcetera. But Mr Montana clearly remained in the picture throughout the process. ADV SONI SC: 20 Now what is not contained in your report and it is not – it is just an observation, is a point made by Ms de Beer yesterday that she offered to paint, he declined the offer and then he m ade – or was intending to make major improvem ents and you still see scaffolding – that is her evidence, you see the scaffolding there. What do you make of all of – that is obviously not added into your Page 58 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 report. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: MR Ye s . But what do you make of that? OELLERMAN: Well, I have address and I can confirm that. actually visited the I mean, the property appears to be almost abandoned at the moment, it looks like a construction site and there is scaffolding there, it is clearly under – was under construction but it seems to have just been abandoned and no further work has been 10 done to the property so under the circumstances it appears t o b e a n e g l e c t e d p i e c e o f p r o p e r t y. ADV SONI SC: And the amount paid for the property was R13.9 million? MR OELLERMAN: R13 million, yes. So with an investment like that one would expect to – if you were going to do improvements, you want to protect your investment. CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is really quite strange that anybody can buy property for R14 million, R18 million and 20 starts making some changes to the property or improvements and then just abandon it like that and Ms de Beer said that has been the case for six years. MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a s I u n d e r s t a n d . She said she has regularly driven past and looked at the house because she liked the house and Page 59 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 s h e f e e l s s o b a d t o s e e i t l i k e t h a t n o w. For six years it does not seem to have been occupied. ADV SONI SC: Chairperson, I may have misled e v e r y b o d y, t h e a m o u n t i s R 11 m i l l i o n , n o t R 1 3 m i l l i o n . CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s , y e s , y e s . T h a t i s t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, there is another one – but there is a n o t h e r p r o p e r t y f o r 1 3 m i l l i o n , t h i s o n e w a s 11 , o r 1 0 , 5 ? ADV SONI SC: 10 Originally but it was eventually sold for 11 . CHAIRPERSON: O h , 11 m i l l i o n , o k a y. ADV SONI SC: Yo u m i g h t r e m e m b e r s h e s a i d s h e w a s w i l l i n g t o a c c e p t 1 0 , 5 j u s t t o g e t r i d o f t h e p r o p e r t y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . Oh, I thought she ultimately – it was ultimately sold for 10.5 because she made – she was prepared to make that discount. ADV SONI SC: B u t t h e a m o u n t w a s 11 m i l l i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Wa s 11 m i l l i o n , j a . ADV SONI SC: 20 Then let us go, Mr Oellerman to the S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y. Now in relation to this property who were players the key role again? Who sourced the p r o p e r t y, w h o m w a s i t t r a n s f e r r e d t o ? MR OELLERMAN: So again, Mr Montana is the person w h o s o u r c e d t h e p r o p e r t y. H e i d e n t i f i e d t h e p r o p e r t y, i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e w o u l d w a n t t o b u y t h e p r o p e r t y. Page 60 of 224 But this 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 p r o p e r t y, a g a i n , t h r o u g h a s i m i l a r p r o c e s s w h i c h I o u t l i n e d e a r l i e r, r a t h e r t h a n M r M o n t a n a b e i n g t h e u l t i m a t e p e r s o n to whom it was transferred, it was again transferred to P r e c i s e Tr a d e . T h e i n t e r a c t i o n s – t h e s e l l e r i s a M r K o h l e r, the interactions with the estate agent and Mr Montana sort of rather than the property going through the normal course of events one would expect be transferred to, the o r i g i n a l p e r s o n w o u l d p u t i n t h e o f f e r, h e r e q u e s t e d t h a t i t b e u l t i m a t e l y t r a n s f e r r e d t o t h e e n t i t y P r e c i s e Tr a d e w h i c h 10 is how the transaction evolved from then. ADV SONI SC: And to your affidavit – I mean, to your report, and that is OR3, you annex a number of emails which are communications between Mr Montana and the s e l l e r, a M r K o h l e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR OELLERMAN: That is correct. So again, as I said e a r l i e r, r a t h e r t h a n h i m l e a v i n g t h e s c e n e a f t e r t h e r e q u e s t h a s b e e n m a d e t o t r a n s f e r t h e p r o p e r t y t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e , he is clearly in communication with the seller on a regular b a s i s , s o h e r e m a i n s a c t i v e l y i n v o l v e d , i t w o u l d a p p e a r, 20 from the documentation that has been reviewed. ADV SONI SC: And when they wanted to change the electricity bill, to whom do they write, the Kohler? MR OELLERMAN: set out there Ye s , t h e y w r o t e t o M r M o n t a n a a n d h a d what the significance would be for the e l e c t r i c i t y, i t w o u l d b e c u t o f f a n d h o w M r M o n t a n a – t h e y Page 61 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 directed it to Mr Montana as if he was going to be taking o v e r t h e p r o p e r t y. ADV SONI SC: is in issue. And there is one payment for the fees that When the fees for the transfer fall due to whom does Mr Kohler right? MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Again he wrote to Mr Montana. And what happened after he wrote to him? MR OELLERMAN: Well, Mr Montana apologised for the delay and said he was not aware of any problems but he 10 s a i d h e w o u l d a t t e n d t o i t a n d s h o r t l y, t h e n e x t d a y, I believe, payments were made. ADV SONI SC: Can I just ask you to turn to bundle G again, EXHIBIT SS16, page 191. If I can ask you to look at the entry right towards the bottom on the 25th February 2015. Do you see that? MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Yes, I do. And that is a deposit into the Precise Trade account. What is the amount of that deposit? MR OELLERMAN: 20 The deposit is R1 105 084.92, Chair. And next to it is inscription TMM loan which is in the handwriting of Mr van der Walt, as pointed by Mr Loubser. ADV SONI SC: And what happens on later that day? MR OELLERMAN: On the same day the exact amount of R1 105 084.92 is made as a payment to the transferring attorneys Borchardt &Hansen for the property. Page 62 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry. On the 25 February 2015, there is a deposit of R1 105 084.92. MR OELLERMAN: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: Into Precise Trade’s account and then on the same day exactly the same amount is withdrawn or is – is that – it says withdrawal? MR OELLERMAN: Yes, it is withdrawn, it is a payment that is made. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Yes but do we know – because there is no reference to TLM there, do we know…? MR OELLERMAN: Well, the payment is a payment made out of the account and the reference is Borchardt Hansen. CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: Ja. Which were the conveyancers or the transferring attorneys that were handling the sale of the property. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, those were the transferring attorneys or conveyancers? MR OELLERMAN: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Oh, okay. In regard to the property. MR OELLERMAN: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: Okay and I guess that part of what maybe underway is something that will show that it went into their account. MR OELLERMAN: Correct, yes. Page 63 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ja and what they did with it. Ja. Mr Oellerman, it has just occurred to me I may have misled you. That is the payment in respect of the Waterkloof transfer. MR OELLERMAN: Yes, correct. ADV SONI SC: The one in respect of the Sandhurst transfer is the one on the 4 February 2015 and I must apologise for that, it is my fault, I drew your attention to the wrong one. 10 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Yes. Now this question arose out of my question, when the payment for the transfer fees were due, the seller wrote to Mr Montana, you remember? MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Correct. Yes, that is correct. And then you said Mr Montana apologised and is this the transfer that took place on the following day on the 4 February because Mr Montana wrote to Mr Kohler on the 3 February to say I am sorry, I will sort it out by tomorrow. 20 MR OELLERMAN: Yes. So if you look at paragraph 72 of my report there, I state there that Precise Trade paid the transfer costs of the exact amount which is reflected, R1 105 537.30 on that day. ADV SONI SC: And the transferring attorneys or the conveyancers were Snyman Attorneys, is that correct? Page 64 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 MR OELLERMAN: Correct and there is a reference it says Empire Place, which is the property. ADV SONI SC: Chairperson, it was my misleading the witness and I apologise for that. There were just two and I just mixed them up but I just want to place it on record that the one deals with the Waterkloof transfer but the one that Mr Oellerman is now talking about on the 4 February 2015 is the one related to the Sandhurst property. That is correct? 10 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: That is correct. Now is there any picture that emerges especially any special feature that emerges in respect of the Sandhurst property transaction? MR OELLERMAN: Well, when you say special feature, in my – from the documentation that I have seen and the affidavits that were submitted it is just a consistent theme that emerges is that Mr Montana, as I have said earlier, he initiates the property deal. The owners actually think he is the person who would appear that is behind the deal but 20 t h e t r a n s f e r i s m a d e t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e . Mr Montana remains involved throughout the process but payment is not made at all by Mr Montana, p a y m e n t i s e f f e c t e d t h r o u g h P r e c i s e Tr a d e o r o t h e r p a r t y. ADV SONI SC: Let us then turn to the Hurlingham p r o p e r t y, M r O e l l e r m a n . Page 65 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Now at paragraphs 79 to 86 you deal very briefly with the bare facts in relation to the transactions in writing that took place. Could you briefly tell the Chairperson what those reflect? MR OELLERMAN: Ye s , C h a i r, s o t h e H u r l i n g h a m p r o p e r t y again Mr Montana was the person who viewed the property a n d m a d e a n o f f e r f o r 1 3 . 5 m i l l i o n f o r t h e p r o p e r t y. The request was then made subsequent to that to have the 10 property offer to purchase changed into the nam e of the M i n o r Tr u s t r e p r e s e n t e d b y M r J o h a n S m i t h . What transpired after that was a sequence of events where the conveyancing attorney resisted that and as well as the owner which ultimately resulted in Mr Montana being t h e r e g i s t e r e d o w n e r, p r o p e r t y w a s t r a n s f e r r e d i n t o h i s name and although it must be said, although the property was transferred into this name, from the documentation and evidence that we have gathered until this point, does not appear that he paid any amount towards the purchase 20 of the house. ADV SONI SC: Now in respect of this property at paragraph 84 you say: “ A f t e r t h e d e p o s i t w a s p a i d , a n d a m o u n t o f R 11 , 5 million was made by a Midtownbrace (Proprietary) Ltd.” Page 66 of 224 company called 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. Now on the basis of the investigations you have done in respect of Midtownbrace. Who is the person involved with Midtownbrace? MR OELLERMAN: Midtownbrace is a company that is actually in registered Botswana but again from the documentation that was provided to us, we were able – by M r L o u b s e r, w e w e r e a b l e t o i d e n t i f y t h a t a n d M r A n d r e Wa g n e r w a s i n v o l v e d i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r t r a n s a c t i o n a n d t h a t 10 an agreement was similar to other agreements that Mr van d e r Wa l t h a d p u t t o g e t h e r, a s i m i l a r a g r e e m e n t w a s p u t i n t o place as an investment opportunity and the funding for H u r l i n g h a m p r o p e r t y, t h e b u l k o f t h e 11 . 5 m i l l i o n w a s t h e n transferred to the Midtownbrace company in Botswana to the conveyancing attorneys and to effect the final o u t s t a n d i n g a m o u n t o f t h e p r o p e r t y. ADV SONI SC: Now you have tried to obtain a statement f r o m M r Wa g n e r. MR OELLERMAN: 20 ADV SONI SC: Ye s . And what has happened to that? MR OELLERMAN: He has recently provided us with an affidavit, we are busy working through the affidavit and following up on the information that was provided to us. ADV SONI SC: But does he say anything of significance in the affidavit? Page 67 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 MR OELLERMAN: He does confirm that the agreement w a s p u t t o g e t h e r b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t , t h a t i t w a s i n i t i a t e d by Mr van der Wa l t as an investment opportunity for properties, to develop properties, and that the deal was such that they would benefit from the sale of his properties o n c e t h e p r o p e r t i e s h a v e b e e n p u t t o g e t h e r. Again, this was a property – he also indicates that due to zoning issues they were not able to develop the property has been essentially abandoned. 10 I have visited the property as well and it is probably in a worse condition t h a n t h e Wa t e r k l o o f p r o p e r t y, i t i s q u i t e d e r e l i c t t o b e q u i t e honest, it is property that is completely abandoned. CHAIRPERSON: I am sure you took pictures of both the o t h e r o n e t h a t w e t a l k e d a b o u t a t Wa t e r k l o o f ? MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: I n d e e d , C h a i r. As well as that one you – there would be p i c t u r e s o f h o w t h e y l o o k l i k e n o w. MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ve r y g o o d , C h a i r. Ja. MR OELLERMAN: With our updated reports we will include all these in the report. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. I wonder whether the investigation that you have conducted may have revealed whether the abandonment of these properties may have happened after the media became interested in some of Page 68 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 these properties or not? MR OELLERMAN: C h a i r, t h a t c e r t a i n l y h a s h a p p e n e d b u t I cannot say it is a direct consequence of it. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , i t m i g h t b e d i f f i c u l t t o s a y unless it is somebody who was watching at the time what was happening. MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . Ja. MR OELLERMAN: 10 So the explanations being given are issues which, for example, zoning or incorrect plans that have not been approved, things like that. Whether there is a concerted effort to remedy that, I cannot say I have seen evidence of that, at this stage. But c e r t a i n l y, t h e t w o p r o p e r t i e s i n q u e s t i o n a r e i n a r a t h e r d i r e condition. ADV SONI SC: Now the interesting thing about the H u r l i n g h a m p r o p e r t y i s , a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , M r Wa g n e r h a s i n s t i t u t e d s u m m o n s i n t h e G a u t e n g H i g h C o u r t f o r, a s h e put it, to protect is rights. 20 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: MR T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. I t i s h e w h o p a i d t h e m o n e y. OELLERMAN: Correct, through Midtownbrace …[intervenes] ADV SONI SC: Well, that is what he says. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s , y e s , t h r o u g h M i d t o w n b r a c e , y e s , Page 69 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 that is correct. ADV SONI SC: And that matter has not been resolved yet. MR OELLERMAN: N o t t o m y k n o w l e d g e , n o , C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: And in his affidavit to you, does he indicate the nature of the dispute relating to this property? MR OELLERMAN: It is not covered in huge detail but e s s e n t i a l l y, I m e a n , b e c a u s e o f t h e i s s u e s o f t h e c o n d i t i o n of the property now because their plans to develop could not be approved as a result of various hurdles that they 10 experience but essentially he is now faced with a situation where he needs to protect his own investment as a result of what has happened. P r o p e r t y, I t h i n k , i n m y d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h h i m , I t h i n k he indicated last that the best offer they got so far was in the region of 4 million which is significantly less than his investment. ADV SONI SC: N o w t h e p r o p e r t y, t h o u g h , i s r e g i s t e r e d i n Mr Montana’s name, unlike the other two properties that were purchased. 20 MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: That is correct. Now in regard to the three properties …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. Ye s . S o i n r e g a r d t o t h e h a v i n g p r o p e r t y, w a s Page 70 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Mr van der Wa l t not involved in terms of your investigations? MR OELLERMAN: Ye s , i t i s – h i s i n v o l v e m e n t h a s b e e n consistent throughout. CHAIRPERSON: Including on this one? MR OELLERMAN: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O h , b u t n o t P r e c i s e Tr a d e o r h e w a s involved …[intervenes] MR OELLERMAN: 10 got that far The property would – the deal never because of resistance received from the conveyancers. CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: Ye s . O f t h e s e l l e r. Ye s . T h e y w o u l d n o t a l l o w P r e c i s e Tr a d e o r t h e M i n o r Tr u s t t o i n i t i a l l y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: Ye s . O h , b u t t h e p l a n w a s e x a c t l y t h a t ? Correct. C e r t a i n l y, t h e y a l r e a d y w e n t on that – they embarked on that route. 20 CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: Ye s . Because there is correspondence. Ye s . And an affidavit which we have. Ye s , y e s , y e s . Where it was set out. Page 71 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR OELLERMAN: That post to Mr Montana signing the initial offer to purchase it was followed up by a request to h a v e t h e M i n o r Tr u s t t o s i g n a n a d d i t i o n a l o f f e r t o p u r c h a s e and that was resisted, the evidence …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . So that is why it ended up being registered in Mr Montana’s name. 10 MR OELLERMAN: I t w o u l d a p p e a r s o , C h a i r, y e s . CHAIRPERSON: So the pattern was the same as with regard to the two other properties where Mr Montana identifies the property and makes the initial approach. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And then later on wants to bring in P r e c i s e Tr a d e . MR OELLERMAN: Correct. And he is still involved in the p r o p e r t y, M r v a n d e r Wa l t , b e c a u s e h e p u t t o g e t h e r t h e deal with Midtownbrace. CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: 20 CHAIRPERSON: MR OELLERMAN: Loubser clearly Ye s , y e s . A s t h e m a j o r i n v e s t o r i n t h e p r o p e r t y. Ye s . So the documents provided to us by Mr indicate that there is a joint venture a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n M r v a n d e r Wa l t w h o w a s r e p r e s e n t i n g P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d M i d t o w n b r a c e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Page 72 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: Just in regard to Midtownbrace, do any of the person involved in the Siyangena matter feature in Midtownbrace? MR OELLERMAN: In the company itself? No. I i n t e r v i e w e d a M r Wa g n e r w h o i n d i c a t e d t h a t i t w a s h i s c o m p a n y a n d t h a t h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t who had known him for many years going back to university d a y s , w h o p u t t h e d e a l t o g e t h e r. ADV SONI SC: 10 S o t h a t i s M r Wa g n e r ’ s a c c o u n t ? MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Now as not – and I am just going by reports on this, was not a company in which Mr Mario F e r r e i r a h a v i n g a n i n t e r e s t n a m e l y Tr i p l e Tr a d e I n v e s t 0 4 (Proprietary) Ltd. Did they not acquire some of the shares in Midtownbrace? I know you may not know but I am just saying that is what is in the media space. MR OELLERMAN: I am aware of those reports but as far as the investigation at the moment, we have not confirmed that at that moment. 20 ADV SONI SC: But those are matters that clearly call for further investigation and that is why it is relevant to the Siyangena dispute, if I can put it as such, Chairperson. Now you have been at pains to point out that you have the bare facts, the legal triggers involved but in your report your look at Mr Montana’s role in each of these Page 73 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 transactions. Could you briefly summarise that in respect of each of the transactions? L e t u s s t a r t o ff w i t h t h e P a r k w o o d a n d t h e Wa t e r k l o o f p r o p e r t y ? MR OELLERMAN: Ye s , C h a i r, I t h i n k I h a v e c o v e r e d m o s t o f i t a l r e a d y, I t h i n k I h a v e i n d i c a t e d – a n d i t i s – a l o t o f i t was covered by Ms de Beer in her evidence as well. I think she went as far as to say that although there were other properties involved, she saw they were just alter egos, I think were the words that she has used in her affidavit and 10 yesterday as well of Mr Montana and that he was the central figure. As far as she was concerned, she was – or h e w a s h e r b u y e r, t h e p u r c h a s e r o f t h e p r o p e r t y a n d h e remained constant in contact with her throughout the process. ADV SONI SC: Sandhurst? MR OELLERMAN: Sandhurst, again, Mr Montana was the one who signed the first offer to purchase so he presented himself as the buyer of the property and again as he then requested or requests were made for the property to rather 20 b e t r a n s f e r r e d t o – i n t h e n a m e t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e , t h e r e i s still evidence – there is significant evidence that he remained in contact with the sellers of the property and continually – was continuously in the picture right through until the property was transferred. ADV SONI SC: And Hurlingham? Page 74 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 MR OELLERMAN: Hurlingham is the last property which w e h a v e j u s t c o v e r e d , v e r y, v e r y s i m i l a r. The only thing that happened in this place is that they were not – he was unable to transferred convert into a the request different to have the entity’s other than property himself, b e i n g t h e M i n o r Tr u s t a n d t h i s p r o p e r t y w a s t r a n s f e r r e d i n t o h i s n a m e a n d r e m a i n s i n h i s n a m e u p u n t i l n o w. ADV SONI SC: And then at paragraph 104 of your report you conclude that whatever the docum ents – the official 10 d o c u m e n t s m a y s h o w, i t w a s M r M o n t a n a w h o p l a y e d a crucial role in the purchasing or the transactions relating to those properties. MR OELLERMAN: A b s o l u t e l y, i t i s q u i t e c l e a r f r o m t h e documents, particularly emails, correspondence and the affidavits of people that have been interviewed up until now that he was active in the whole process. It would appear that there is an attempt to conceal, i f I c a n u s e t h a t w o r d , h i s i n v o l v e m e n t t h e r e a f t e r, b u t h e i s quite clearly involved in these properties’ transactions. 20 ADV SONI SC: Then you deal with the next topic in your report, which is – because we know Mr Montana is a key figure – then you deal with the other key role players, could you just identify them and summarise what their role i s , t h e f i r s t o n e b e i n g M r v a n d e r Wa l t . MR OELLERMAN: Ye s . Page 75 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: And maybe before you do that please we – you said earlier on that the three properties if one works on the basis that with regard to the three properties, Wa t e r k l o o f , S a n d h u r s t a n d H u r l i n g h a m , t h a t e f f e c t i v e l y t h e buyer was Mr Montana even where in regard to the two P r e c i s e Tr a d e w a s t h e e n t i t y t h a t o n p a p e r b o u g h t y o u know and if one says in effect Mr – in reality Mr Montana was buying these properties and became the owner and so on in substance it would mean that within a period of about 10 what, 12 months or thereabout he bought properties to the value of what – over R30 000 000, over R24 000 000. MR OELLERMAN: CHAIRPERSON: It is around R36 000 000. Over R36 000 000. MR OELLERMAN: Ja look certainly the impression that the sellers gave is that Mr Montana was the owner of the p r o p e r t y, t h a t i s c e r t a i n l y h o w t h e y u n d e r s t o o d i t t o b e . A s I said Ms de Beer said those, the other organisation, P r e c i s e Tr a d e w a s j u s t a n a l t e r e g o o f M r M o n t a n a , s h e understood that the property was his. 20 Ye s , so what happened post the sale of these properties is under investigation, but as I say the sellers of the property was certain under the impression that Mr Montana was the person who was going to take occupation o r b e t h e o w n e r o f t h e p r o p e r t y. CHAIRPERSON: We know Page 76 of 224 that Wa t e r k l o o f and 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Hurlingham you did say that they are not in good conditions. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, Sandhurst what happened to Sandhurst, did he occupy? MR OELLERMAN: For Sandhurst, I visited that address as well? CHAIRPERSON: 10 Huh? MR OELLERMAN: I visited that address as well, the S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y. It does appear that it is a property that is occupied, however on the days which I visited it we did not find anyone there, we left them a letter requesting that they get in contact with us. They have not done so as y e t , b u t c e r t a i n l y t h e p r o p e r t y, t h e r e ’ s a f a i r l y b i g w a l l a n d g a t e s s o y o u j u s t c a n n o t g e t a f u l l p i c t u r e o f t h e p r o p e r t y, but there were cars parked there and you could clearly see the property is occupied, the yard looks in a reasonable condition etcetera, so it is certainly not in the derelict condition of the other two properties. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. It will be important to establish whether after the transaction who occupied the Sandhurst, ja. MR OELLERMAN: Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: And up to when or whether the same people who occupied immediately after the transfer are Page 77 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 they still the same people who are still occupying. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Ye s c o r r e c t . Sorry Chairperson if I could just remind you, you might remember Mr Green yesterday when he gave evidence said that in 2017, he had sold the Sandhurst p r o p e r t y. CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, yes, he sold it from Precise Tr a d e t o s o m e b o d y e l s e . 10 MR OELLERMAN: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: Also, what would be important is to establish who occupied it before it was sold in 2017. MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, t h a n k y o u . And of course, who got the money for the 2017 sale. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: It would be important to get to know that. ADV SONI SC: 20 I n d e e d C h a i r, y e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a l r i g h t . ADV SONI SC: Let’s deal then with this issue about the other role players Mr Oellerman. MR OELLERMAN: S o w e h a v e i d e n t i f i e d M r v a n d e r Wa l t , o b v i o u s l y t o t h e P r e c i s e Tr a d e e n t i t y w h i c h h e c r e a t e d a s – for the purchasing of these properties Page 78 of 224 and which two 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 properties were transferred to. He was also the director o f L o u b s e r v a n d e r Wa l t a t t h e t i m e a n d a s w e u n d e r s t a n d it acted as an attorney for Siyangena for a period of time. Also apart from Mr – we have obviously identified Mr Montana as well as being central to these property purchases, and then Mr Mario Ferreira who has links to S i y a n g e n a a s w e l l a s T M M a n d o n M r v a n d e r Wa l t ’ s o w n version to his partners was involved in these property transactions 10 through venture agreements. an investment initiative and joint The same would go for Mr Johan S m i t h w h o a c t e d f o r – o n b e h a l f o f t h e M i n o r Tr u s t w h o were linked to these transactions. ADV SONI SC: Now these, your report has been served on all of these people. MR OELLERMAN: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: And one of the things that you as an investigator needed to look at is how do you get this whole picture before the Commission, before the full picture emerges and one did not by way of this report is that 20 correct? MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: That is correct. O k a y, n o w y o u h a v e i n v i t e d a l l o f t h e s e persons to indicate what their links are to the different companies and so on, and we I take it will await their response and if they don’t respond then we will require Page 79 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 them to respond as per the Commission’s powers. MR OELLERMAN: A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. O b v i o u s l y, t h e r e i s a l s o a d d i t i o n a l i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t h a s t o proceed with these matters as well, as I indicated at the outset. This is a status of where we are at the moment. ADV SONI SC: And those investigations include what the C h a i r p e r s o n s a i d e a r l i e r, n a m e l y w e n e e d t o l o o k a t w h o we know withdrawals were made purportedly in respect of the properties, but to whom were the actual payments 10 made. I mean I can always say I am paying to Mr Montana, but pay to somebody else, so those are the investigations that still need to ...[intervenes] MR OELLERMAN: ADV SONI SC: A b s o l u t e l y t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. Now you conclude then that these matters are raised and what do you expect the persons whom you h a v e m e n t i o n e d n o w, M r v a n d e r Wa l t , M r S m i t h , M r M a r i o F e r r e i r a , M r Wa g n e r a n d a l l o f t h e m t o – h o w d o y o u expect them to respond. MR OELLERMAN: 20 The intention is for them to examine the information that is being compiled here along with other individuals who have given evidence related to these particular matters and to provide an explanation on their involvement in the property and give us detailed versions of their account of how these transactions emerged. ADV SONI SC: And in the eventual outcome of this, you Page 80 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 set it out at paragraph 19. MR OELLERMAN: investigation responses. is Ye s complete once we and have we all have these the everyone’s This will be packaged as a complete report for the Chairperson to evaluate as part of the evidence that has been gathered in the PRASA investigation. ADV SONI SC: Ye s , C h a i r t h a t i s t h e e v i d e n c e w e w o u l d like to lead in respect of Mr Oellerman. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s n o t h a t i s f i n e . That table is it ready? ADV SONI SC: We will give you a typed copy Chairperson ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ja, but in the meantime ...[intervenes] Just for your – yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I just want to have a look before Mr Oellerman leaves the witness stand. Okay no that’s fine, I t h i n k p r e p a r e – l e t m e h a v e a t y p e d o n e m a y b e t o m o r r o w. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: why it What happens first involving who. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: that’s Let it go according to date sequence. And what happens next involving who so becomes important for example where c o n t r a c t i s s i g n e d t o s a y f r o m P R A S A’ s s i d e w h o s i g n s i t . Page 81 of 224 a 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: But maybe also from the other side who signs it. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And I see here the note is the 8th of June contract is signed by Montana. ADV SONI SC: Ye s , b o t h t h e 3 0 t h J u n e a n d t h e 3 0 t h o f S e p t e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 one comes Ye s , s o b o t h o f t h e m , s o – a n d t h e J u n e about a few weeks after the Wa t e r k l o o f a g r e e m e n t i n M a y. ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: The Parkwood agreement? P a r k w o o d , j a , P a r k w o o d , I a m s o r r y, a n d then August of course you have August/September you h a v e I t h i n k t h a t ’ s w h e n y o u h a v e t h e Wa t e r k l o o f ? ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , and then you have got the addendum also signed by Mr Montana. ADV SONI SC: 20 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . For ...[intervenes] 4 t h o f S e p t e m b e r. For close to R800 000. R900million. Oh, she wrote here – Ms Fangata is not used to millions, she wrote R794 634, she didn’t even write Page 82 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 R794 000 000, she wrote thousands. R900million you said? ADV SONI SC: R800million. CHAIRPERSON: R800million ja, so if I can get a typed o n e t h a t r e a l l y s a y s – b e c a u s e i t w o u l d b e h a n d y, y o u s a y t h i s h a p p e n s f i r s t , t h e n t h i s h a p p e n s a f t e r. ADV SONI SC: Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: This happens first and then this happens a f t e r. 10 ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And the values, the amounts and all depending on the occasion. Okay no thank you very much. you Mr Oellerman thank for coming to give evidence, thank you for your investigation and of course you may come back later on when your investigation is complete. MR OELLERMAN: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: But in the meantime, the people who have been served may come forward to put their side of the 20 s t o r y. MR OELLERMAN: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, unless Mr Soni still has something for you, I am ready to excuse you. ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: No, I have nothing. Yo u a r e e x c u s e d t h a n k y o u . Page 83 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: Thank you Mr Oellerman. Mr Chairperson the next witness is Mr Fani Dingiswayo. We have been threatening to call him for quite a long time, but he has eventually got his day in the Commission. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: I am sure he says finally my day arrives. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, call him. I think these files we need to ...[intervenes] ADV SONI SC: 10 It does not look like, Chairperson can I ask for a few minutes, it seems he may be outside, I am s o r r y, I t h o u g h t h e w a s h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay we will have a – we will take ten minutes, we will resume at twenty past, or shall we make it half past? ADV SONI SC: M a k e i t h a l f p a s t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: REGISTRAR: J a , o k a y. W e a d j o u r n . All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S 20 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s M r S o n i . As you please Chairperson. Chairperson Mr Dingiswayo is now here, may he be sworn in. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , please administer the oath or affirmation. REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record. Page 84 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : REGISTRAR: Mfaniphela Moses Dingiswayo. Do you have any objection to taking the prescribed oath? M R D I N G I S WAY O : REGISTRAR: No. Do you consider the oath to be binding on your conscience? M R D I N G I S WAY O : REGISTRAR: Ye s . Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but 10 the truth, if so please raise your right hand and so help me God. M R D I N G I S WAY O : So help me God. M FA N I P H E L A M O S E S D I N G I S WAY O : [d.s.s.] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s M r S o n i ? ADV SONI SC: Mr Chairperson in light of the concerns you raised yesterday in regard to the numbering, the numbering in this bundle, which is Bundle F Chairperson has been changed so you will see Chairperson on the right hand side is each affidavit starts with number one, we have 20 for the purposes of today put the numbers sequentially as you have required and we will attend to it so that it looks neater and perhaps even in red but for today could we look at the left hand side, those are the numbers so they are sequential then, and we don’t have the difficulty that we had yesterday Chairperson. Page 85 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w h e n y o u s a y t h e n u m b e r s o n t h e left hand side ...[intervenes] ADV SONI SC: On the top left hand side where I have them. CHAIRPERSON: Is it the one that says PRASA Bundle F154? ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: That’s right yes. For example here – okay so – okay no t h a t ’ s f i n e s o t h a t i s a l r i g h t , o k a y, a l r i g h t , f o r p u r p o s e s o f 10 this bundle any reference to pages will be to the number – will be not to the red numbers, it will be to the black numbers which appear on the left hand side of each page. ADV SONI SC: Indeed, and which are handwritten Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , w e l l t h i s i s n o t h a n d w r i t t e n I t h i n k on mine. ADV SONI SC: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: It is not handwritten but it is black numbers, maybe they just made sure mine looked like that 20 and yours – ja they are not handwritten, they – I think it must be a matching. ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . J a , o k a y. What we will do Chair ...[intervenes] On mine, I don’t know about the witness Page 86 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 but ... ADV SONI SC: He has the same numbering Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y, o k a y. ADV SONI SC: But Chairperson what we will do is after this part of the evidence has been led, we will just put e v e r y t h i n g i n o r d e r, b u t a t l e a s t w e k n o w t h e r e c o r d w i l l properly reflect this and I would reflect it on the documents we will discuss with you. CHAIRPERSON: 10 ADV SONI SC: Ye s , y e s , n o t h a t ’ s a l r i g h t . Mr Dingiswayo you have made an affidavit i n r e g a r d t o t h i s m a t t e r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. I am going to – so to summarise – well I am going to give an outline of what is contained in your affidavit but just for form ality sake do you confirm the correctness and truthfulness of what is said in this affidavit? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s C h a i r t h e a f f i d a v i t I s e e i t r u n s from ...[intervenes] 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second, let’s first identify where the affidavit is found. It is found in Exhibit – in Bundle F starting at page 95. ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: 95 Chairman. Well that’s the index but there’s – the index to – no it’s not the index, it is – ja it is the index. Page 87 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But the actual affidavit starts on page 96. ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: 96. And runs up to page 121. That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: And again, for the record I am looking at, or I am using the black numbers on the top left side of each page and not the red numbers on the top right side of 10 the page. ADV SONI SC: And it is Exhibit SS8 Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: That affidavit it is annexures – or has it got annexures? ADV SONI SC: Ye s i t h a s , i t h a s q u i t e a f e w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, and its annexures there it is a d m i t t e d a s E x h i b i t S S 8 a n d i t i s c o n t a i n e d i n B u n d l e F. ADV SONI SC: As it pleases Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, y e s , s o i s t h a t t h e – i s t h a t y o u r affidavit? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r, t h i s i s m y affidavit and the signature that is on page 121 is my signature. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d I t h i n k M r S o n i h a d a s k e d y o u something and I interrupted him, do you confirm that its contents are correct? Page 88 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI I do confirm Chairperson. Ye s , t h a n k y o u . SC: Now Mr Dingiswayo what are your professional qualifications? M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r m a n a d m i t t e d a t t o r n e y, I w a s admitted in 1999, and I practiced until 2013 when I joined the Passenger Rail Agency as a General Manager : Legal S e r v i c e s . To d a t e I a m s t i l l t h e r e a s G e n e r a l M a n a g e r. ADV SONI SC: 10 And to which department – this is at PRASA, is that right? M R D I N G I S WAY O : That is correct, the department I worked in is called Legal Risk and Compliance. I – so I am responsible for the legal side, a counterpart of mine is responsible for compliance and the other sub-sets of that department. ADV SONI SC: administrative, And your you general fall under administrative the head general is Ms Martha Ngoye? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s m y – I r e p o r t t o M s N g o y e . Is the position you occupy now that you have just told me about the same position you occupied in 2014/2015 or it is different? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : That is correct. It is still the same? It is the same position. Page 89 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: O k a y. We will return to that question a little later Chairperson because Mr Dingiswayo is at present under suspension. But that I want to deal with at a later stage. But I just place it on record so it is not as if it – we are not aware of what his status is. Now Mr Dingiswayo you begin at paragraph 4 of your a ff i d a v i t t o m a k e a g e n e r a l o b s e r v a t i o n a b o u t c o n c e r n s t h a t you have in relation to PRASA and there are two or perhaps 10 three concerns. The first one relates to the undue influence that certain persons exercised or still exercise at PRASA. Could you tell the Chairperson what you mean by that and identify who those persons are? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Chair in – in an institution like PRASA and I think it is the same with a number of your institutions it is – they are holy cows. So they are – I mean I remember one of the first transactions that I had to deal with related to Siyaya and somebody just whispered in my ear that do 20 n o t s c r u t i n i z e t o o c l o s e l y. So you learn if you have friends in the institution or if people receive you favourably you will learn very quickly that there are some holy cows and it is something that is very much known in the institution. to those service providers is Everything that relates treated Page 90 of 224 favourably from 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 procurement even where sometimes the procurement is not done properly but that is part of the favourable treatment of that particular service provider to contracting you – Chairperson you would remember that in the report entitled Derailed one of the things which are supposed to be a normal thing that were noted by the Public Protector is that contracts do not go to the legal department for vetting and drafting. So 10 you would find that kind of trend from procurement to contracting to contract management. And it is – it is key contracts in the organisation. It is even when you – you have meetings with those service providers they give you looks that – that tell you that if you are not towing the line after this meeting, I am going to report you. So it is something like that. Yo u g e t t h e s e n s e v e r y early that there are certain people that you cannot do your work properly because the – the work is to ensure that the organisation complies with the law but also to make sure that the interest of the organisations are – the legal interest 20 of an organisation is protected at all times. So – and the management of the legal risks. So it is – you then find that you – you cannot do that work properly in relation to those service providers or companies. ADV SONI SC: moment. Now I am going to come back to that in a But as I under – as I heard you, you say that Page 91 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 when you got there or soon after you got there you were told when we were looking at a Siyaya contract. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: Now who does Siyaya – well we know it is a c o m p a n y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: But who is behind Siyaya? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Well I later learnt Chair that the – a gentleman behind Siyaya is a gentleman called Makhensa 10 Mabunda. Mr Mabunda according to information that I – I – was gathered later had worked with Mr Lucky Montana at the Department of Public Enterprises. They were if I am not mistaken DDG’s. I think Mr Mabunda was in finance and I forget what Mr Montana was doing. Then Mr Montana moves to the Department of Tr a n s p o r t t o b e a D D G i n P u b l i c Tr a n s p o r t . When that happens, it appears that Mr Mabunda has an interest in b u s i n e s s a n d h e i s i n v o l v e d i n – a t t h e p r o j e c t o f Ta x i Recapitalisation which fell under the – the purview of Mr 20 Montana at the department. So he is one of the people who – I think he was a CFO of the agency that was doing the work in that space of Ta x i R e c a p i t a l i s a t i o n . Mr Montana leaves the Department o f Tr a n s p o r t j o i n s – j o i n s P R A S A a n d M r M a b u n d a c o n t i n u e s t o g e t w o r k f r o m P R A S A a n d t h i s i s v e r y k e y w o r k . I n e ff e c t Page 92 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 I can say that the entire technical division of PRASA was outsourced to – to his entity because at the – there is a d i v i s i o n c a l l e d P R A S A Te c h n i c a l . He has got a lot of – of advisory work that he does there. I mean this entity Siyaya has a lot of advisory work that it does there and the contract that I was referring to about that somebody whispered to me was a strange contact. It was with an entity I think called Siyaya Fuel and 10 this entity was being paid something in the order of I think about 20cents for every litre of petroleum products that PRASA was consuming. Now you would – if you think about it that included Autopax and Autopax probably had at that time a lot of functional buses. I mean today the fleet is very small but at the time it was sizable fleet. Our long-distance trains then when we had a long distance – an operating long-distance service they – they traversed and a large part of the network with using diesel. 20 So each and every litre that we – we poured of petroleum products they would 20 cents. I tried to – no although as a lawyer the deal is made. I think we were trying – they were trying to get some security of sorts from a bank and the bank needed us to – to confirm something about – about this and it looked – this contract looked very Page 93 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 strange to me because I thought that we could as an organisation get very favourable treatment from the suppliers who are known of these products but we had to go through this organisation. So that is when somebody said, look do not look too closely at it. So it is that kind of a thing. It is – you know the outsourcing of them almost the entire technical function o f P R A S A a n d P R A S A i s a h i g h l y t e c h n i c a l e n t i t y. I mean the – the locomotives, the rolling stock, all of 10 that is technical. The network that we – it operates on is – is technical. So you need a lot of technical capacity to deal with it. So yes, I think at the time when we were looking at the contracts, they had benefitted in the order of a billion through those contracts. And then there is other associations like Swifambo that came up that they seemed to have a hand in that. So yes it is that kind of a thing. ADV SONI SC: heard 20 this Can I just say to you, you because you have mentioned may not have Siyaya and Swifambo in the same breath. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: Now Mr Molefe when he gave evidence this week, earlier this week. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: M o n d a y a n d Tu e s d a y h e s a i d t h a t h e h a d Page 94 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 been told by a Mr Mashaba that Mr Mashaba had been approached by Mr Mabunda. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . A D V S O N I S C : To b e t h e f a c e o f S w i f a m b o . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: Are you aware of that or does that all within what you know about these matters? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Review 10 Application. Chairperson that is in the Swifambo That discussion that happened between Mr Molefe and Mr Mabunda – sorry Mr Mashaba. So I am aware of – of that discussion. I think what came as a very strange thing is that Siyaya came – like I said they were – they were taking over the technical division. One of the people that were in Siyaya was a lady called Brenda Malongete who was working for a law firm DM5. Now what came as a shock to me is that this lady is the one that was drafting the agreements between PRASA and Swifambo. So now you had somebody who came to PRASA 20 through Mr Mabunda advising PRASA on a contract with an entity that is closely associated with – with Mr Mabunda. So it – yes it is – I am aware of it from that context and then I got shocked that this is – this is the situation where we – I mean it is – it is a very – Chair I must be assisted I am on suspension so I am not used to talking a Page 95 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 lot. So if I go on and on, I am hoping that Counsel will assist me and bring me back. CHAIRPERSON: Counsel knows what you are going to say so he will know when … M R D I N G I S WAY O : To s t o p m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : To – t o a s k y o u t h e n e x t q u e s t i o n . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And when to interrupt you. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r p e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: But Mr Dingiswayo I have consulted with you on a number of… CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Soni. On a lighter note I do not know whether Mr Dingiswayo mean that when you are not on suspension and you are working you speak a lot but now that you are on suspension you do not speak a lot so t h i s i s t h e o p p o r t u n i t y. MR D I N G I S WAY O : Chair you have very little human interaction when your – all your colleagues and other family 20 members are at work. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o . ADV SONI SC: But I have not interrupted you because you know what this commission is about. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . Page 96 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A D V S O N I S C : Yo u k n o w P R A S A i n t i m a t e l y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: And to the extent that matters are relevant. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: And you have not mentioned it in your a ff i d a v i t p l e a s e f e e l f r e e t o m e n t i o n i t . Now I had heard of the name of Ms Brenda – what is the name? M R D I N G I S WAY O : M a l o n g e t e . ADV SONI SC: Malongete. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: But I had not realised what the connection w a s u n t i l n o w. S o p l e a s e w h a t – w h e n e v e r y o u c a n a s s i s t . M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . ADV SONI SC: It does help because as Mr Molefe said it is up to the commission to join all the dots. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV SONI SC: Now just on the question of persons of influence that is how the question… 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Of Mr Mabunda came about. May I ask you was there any other person of influence who struck as being an influential role player at PRASA? M R D I N G I S WAY O : The other person Chair – I mean there were – there are quite a number of – of people. I mean the Page 97 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 – PRASA was nicely divided amongst but I will just speak about the major role players. The M o o d l e y. Security through other major one would have been Mr Roy He is the owner of a company called Royal and the I think Ms relationship Ngoye would between have PRASA and taken an you entity called Strawberry Worx. CHAIRPERSON: Just one second. I see that you are speaking quite some distance away from the microphone. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : O h . CHAIRPERSON: But that might be fine. I want to check w i t h t h e t r a n s c r i b e r s w h e t h e r t h e y c a n h e a r y o u p r o p e r l y. Can you hear the witness? Ye s o k a y j a – b e c l o s e r t o t h e m i c r o p h o n e . O k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. So the other person Chair who – who… CHAIRPERSON: I – maybe I could just say the transcribers if – because sometimes I will not ask them. If there is anyone of us whom you cannot hear properly try and send a 20 message that must go up to the evidence leader who can let m e k n o w. J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a n k y o u C h a i r I w a s s a y i n g t h a t t h e – the other person that was influential was a gentleman by the name of Roy Moodley and it is – the security – Royal Security that he owned and associated with Strawberry Page 98 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Worx. Through the investigations that were launched by the board it came out that he may be associated with Siyangena as well. I mean these – these people would be said to have some free reign in the PRASA building. For an example the – in the Siyangena case that sometimes when you know there is a delay in payment – well this is something that I was told that Mr Mario Ferreira would be spotted in the building. 10 So you do not understand how they have gained entrance and all of those things. And later on, the other entity that he was associated w i t h M r R o y M o o d l e y w a s a s s o c i a t e d w i t h i s P r o d i g y. And on that same thing of – of him having free access to the building I remember being called by the CFO I think around – t h e a c t i n g C F O t h e n w a s M s Yv o n n e P a g e . She was calling me around – in December saying that there were p e o p l e f r o m P r o d i g y i n h e r o ff i c e w h o w e r e t h e r e u n i n v i t e d . N o w I m e a n I r e m e m b e r I s a i d t o h e r, j u s t c a l l security and tell them to get rid of those people. 20 they – how did How did they end up there in the first place? Because she was – she was saying she was being forced to do a reconciliation of how much had been paid to Prodigy and how much was owing and make that payment then. So you had that kind of a thing. And this is after Mr Montana had left. I mean this is I think 2017 when this Page 99 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 incident happened. So which also gives you the impression that those people that were important at – during the time of Mr Montana carried on being special even after he had left. The trends are the same. The people who get vilified in the organisation for doing their work are the same. I am on suspension. Mr Montana I probably will get there at some point dismissed me and the – the more it looks like things are changing. I do not want to say they stay the same because my observation is that it seems as if 10 there is a level of desperation that is kicking in in our institution including – including at PRASA to do those wrong things you know the desperation has increased. During the time of Mr Montana, he kind of created a p a r a l l e l s t r u c t u r e w h e r e h e h a d a l a w y e r i n h i s o ff i c e w h o was just serving him. And then he had at another point this firm DM5 doing quite a lot of work for the organisation. He – that firm was not getting instructions from the legal department. They were getting instructions directly from SCM at some point and others from Mr Montana 20 himself. So he had created a nice parallel structure where he can do some of these deals in. N o w w e c a n n o t a ff o r d t h e parallel now because of our cash flow constraints. Now the pressure has come back inside for the people inside to be party to doing wrong. For the people in the inside to Page 100 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 basically afraid and it is something that I think is… CHAIRPERSON: Afraid of doing the right thing? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Chair let me put it in general terms that i t i s j u s t t o s o w f e a r. N o w w h e n s o m e o n e i s a f r a i d , t h e y a r e malleable. Whatever you ask them to do they will do. So it i s j u s t t h a t t h i n g o f s o w i n g f e a r. And at the end the end – t h e i n t e n d e d e n d i s r e a l l y t h a t t o s a y, i f I s a y j u m p y o u s a y how high? Yo u d o n o t s a y b u t w h y a m I j u m p i n g a n d a l l o f those things? Because people are just afraid. 10 ADV SONI SC: Chairperson I see it is one o’clock I… CHAIRPERSON: Ye s l e t u s t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k . We will resume at two. ADV SONI SC: As you please Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. REGISTRAR: All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us continue. ADV SONI SC: 20 As you please Chairperson. N o w, i n p a r a g ra p h 4 o f yo u r a ff i d a vi t a n d I k n o w w e a r e t h e r e b u t w e m o v e a l i t t l e f a st e r M r D i n g i s w a yo . Yo u f i r st sa y t h e re w e r e c e rt a i n p e o p l e s o f i n f l u e n c e . W h e n y o u p o i n t o u t t h a t w h e n y o u g o t t h e r e , y o u w e re t o l d : “B e c a r e f u l a b o u t t h i s S i y a y a m a t t e r s. c a r e f u l l y. ” Page 101 of 224 Do not scrutinise too 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 N o w, I t a k e i t yo u d i d n o t t a ke t h a t se ri o u sl y t h a t y o u should not do your job? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I . . . Ye s, I d i d m y j o b a s b e st a s I c a n . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Because PRASA is the one that pays my s a l a r y C h a i rp e r s o n a n d p a rt o f t h a t j o b i s t o p rot e ct t h e i n t e r e st o f P R A S A . ADV SONI SC: s c ru t i n i s e d 10 Now in regard to... assuming you had co n t ra ct s c a r e f u l l y, whether i n v o l vi n g M a b u n d a ’s f i r m s o r M r M o o d l e y’s f i rm s h e r e . Mr How did Mr M o n t a n a r e a ct t o t h a t ? MR D I N G I S WAY O : Chairperson. It is was in a very st r a n g e way I mean, it happened to me and I happened to s c ru t i n i s e t h e P r o d i g y A g r e e m e n t a n d i n d i c a t e t h a t . . . i n i t i a l l y, I w ro t e t o M r M o n t a n a , g i vi n g h i m t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e d o u b t . Say to him: “I b e l i e v e t h a t h e m a y h a v e b e e n m i sl e d i n a p p r o vi n g t h e c o n t ra ct ”. T h e c o n t r a ct w a s a p p r o v e d o n t h e b a si s t h a t i t i s a . . . s o t h e P r o d i g y co n t r a ct s t h a t . . . A D V S O N I S C : S o r r y, m i st e r. 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . ADV SONI SC: I do not want to stop you. I want to follow y o u r a ff i d a vi t . M R D I N G I S WAY O : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: In p a r a g ra p h 4, . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 102 of 224 yo u deal generally 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: . . . w i t h h o w M r M o n t a n a re a ct e d . We w i l l c o m e t o t h e P ro d i g y c o n t r a ct i n a m i n u t e b u t I d o n o t w a n t t o l o s e t h e t h r e a d o f w h a t yo u s a i d i n y o u r a ff i d a vi t . M R D I N G I S WAY O : S u r e . A D V S O N I S C : S o j u st i n g e n e r a l . M R D I N G I S WAY O : i s r u t h l e s sl y. A ct u a l l y, t h e w o r d I u s e d i n t h e a ff i d a vi t A n d I b e l i e v e t h a t c o r r e ct l y ch a r a ct e r i s e s t h e re s p o n s e w h e n w e d o t h e w o r k t o p r o t e ct t h e i n t e r e st o f 10 PRASA. ADV SONI SC: So you s a y h e r u t h l e s sl y a b u s e d h i s powers? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: And you will give us your example of that. A n d y o u m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e p u b l i c p r o t e ct o r h a s a l s o p o i n t e d o u t t h i s i n h e r r e p o rt ca l l e d D e ra i l e d . M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i r p e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e n t h e t h i r d i s s u e yo u r a i s e i s, t h a t e v e n w h e n c o u rt s m a d e p r o n o u n c e m e n t s a b o u t m a t t e r s, f o r 20 e x a m p l e , w h e r e a p e r s o n h a s b e e n u n f a i rl y d i sm i s s e d o r t h e c o n t r a ct i s i n v a l i d a n d s o o n . M R D I N G I S WAY O : H ’ m . ADV SONI SC: What was m a n a g e m e n t ’s r e a ct i o n at PRASA? M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r m a n , e ve n f o r. . . a n d s o t h e r e w a s Page 103 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 a l w a y s t h i s n e e d t o a p p e a r i n g i n c e rt a i n i n st a n ce s w h e r e t h e a d vi c e t h a t w o u l d h a v e c o m e f ro m t h e l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t , w o u l d b e s a y, “ y o u d o n o t h a v e g o o d p r o s p e ct s o f s u c c e s s o n a p p e a l ”. E v e n w h e r e w e w o u l d h a ve s a i d . . . e v e n f r o m t h e w o r d g o t h a t b e f o r e t h e d e ci si o n w a s m a d e t h a t t h e r e i s n o p r o s p e ct s o f su s p e ct s. S o t h e r e w i l l j u st b e t h a t w a st e o f re s o u r c e s a n d . . . i n c e rt a i n . . . e s p e ci a l l y w h e r e e m p l o y e e s a r e i n v o l v e d , i t w a s 10 a l m o st l i k e a n a t t i t u d e w h e r e s o m e b o d y sa y s, “I h a v e t h e p a s s o f t h e st a t e a n d I a m g o i n g t o l i t i g a t e y o u u n t i l y o u d o n o t h a v e m o n e y ”. ADV SONI SC: N o w t h e o b vi o u s w h e n t h e co n t ra ct . . . a cl o u d i s p u t o v e r a c o n t r a ct a n d i t i n v o l v e d i n f l u e n t i a l p e o p l e , what would their attitude be? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t w o u l d b e d e a l t w i t h u n p r o f e s si o n a l l y C h a i r. I m e a n , t h e e xp e ct a t i o n w a s t h a t yo u d o n o t r a i s e t h e i s s u e t h a t h a s a cl o u d o v e r t h i s t r a n s a ct i o n . ADV SONI SC: 20 No, no. I a m r a i si n g a d i ff e r e n t p o i n t w i t h y o u . I t i s t h e l a st p a rt o f p a r a g r a p h 4 . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : Yo u sa y t h a t : “E v e n w h e n p a y m e n t w a s n o t j u st i f i e d , p a y m e n t s would be made.” M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, t h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. Page 104 of 224 That there 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 w e re i n st a n c e s w h e r e t h e r e w o u l d b e ve r y h e f t y i n v o i c e s. I m e a n , I r e m e m b e r o n e p o i n t w h e n I w a s q u e st i o n i n g a n i n v o i c e o f a l a w y e r w h o h a d g o t o n t o o u r p a n e l , i n m y vi e w, t h r o u g h t h e b a c kd o o r. A n d I w a s n o t . . . I w a s a ct u a l l y c a l l e d b y M r M o n t a n a . I w a s b u s y t a l ki n g t o t h e s e r vi ce p r o vi d e r a s t h e s e r v i ce p r o vi d e r t o t h e l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t , q u e st i o n i n g t h e i n v o i c e s and I was called to his o ff i c e to s a y, “why are you q u e st i o n i n g t h i s a n d a l l o f t h i s ? ” 10 ADV SONI SC: And was the invoice paid? M R D I N G I S WAY O : We l l , i n t h e e n d , t h e l a w y e r h a d t o change the invoice. I m e a n , t h e y w e r e g l a ri n g t h i n g s l i k e d i ff e r e n t h o u rl y r a t e s. To d a y i s t w o p o i n t f i v e . T h e n e xt d a y i t i s f o u r -t h o u s a n d . S o I m e a n , t h o s e . . . i t w a s o b vi o u s t h i n g s t h a t w e r e . . . t h e n I p o i n t e d t h e m o u t t o M r M o n t a n a t o s a y, “I ca n n o t p u t m y si g n a t u r e o n a n i n v o i c e l i k e t h i s. I mean, if it has to be p a i d i n a n o t h e r w a y, i t c a n b e p a i d i n a n o t h e r w a y, b u t I a m n o t g o i n g t o p u t m y n a m e o n i t ”. 20 ADV SONI SC: Now in paragraph 5 you point out that as l e g a l se r vi c e s, y o u w e r e a l l o f t e n r e q u i r e d t o t a k e m a t t e r s t o d i ff e r e n t p l a ce s. A n d yo u s a y, f o r e x a m p l e i n r e g a r d t o t h e c o n t r a ct f o r R 3 , 5 b i l l i o n w h i c h w a s c o n d u ct e d . . . w h i ch w a s c o n cl u d e d c o r r u p t l y. T h a t i s w h a t t h e c o u rt o f A p p e a l s a i d . Page 105 of 224 Which 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 o n e . . . w h i c h c o n t r a ct a r e y o u t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e r e . M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, t h i s t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: I w o n d e r M r S o n i w h e t h e r y o u sh o u l d n o t ask him in a manner that might not appear to be so leading. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. I w i l l d o , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ask him whether they were required... they w e re a b l e t o i n st r u ct d i ff e r e n t l a w f i rm s a n d w h a t w o u l d b e t h e p o si t i o n s o t h a t t h e e vi d e n c e c o m e s f r o m h i m . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: O t h e r w i se , i t l o o k s l i k e y o u a r e g i vi n g e vi d e n c e a n d j u st g e t t i n g h i m t o s a y, y e s, y e s, y e s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: So, look at a finding a way of j u st e xt r a ct i n g t h e i n f o rm a t i o n , t h e e vi d e n c e f r o m h i m . ADV SONI SC: In regard... well, you are aware of the S w i f a m b o c o n t ra c t ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: What... after Mr Montana left, what did P R A S A d o i n r e sp e ct o f t h a t co n t r a c t ? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : h a ve this c o n t r a ct PRASA launched an application Chair to r e vi e w e d and set a si d e which was s u c c e s sf u l a t t h e h i g h c o u rt t a k e n o n a p p e a l . T h e S C A c o n f i r m e d t h e h i g h c o u r t d e ci s i o n a n d t h e r e w a s a n a t t e m p t t o t a k e i t t h e c o n st i t u t i o n a l c o u r t . Th e c o n st i t u t i o n a l c o u rt s a i d t h a t t h e r e w e re n o t p r o s p e ct s o f Page 106 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 s u c c e s s a n d t h e y d i d n o t e n t e rt a i n t h e m a t t e r. ADV SONI SC: N o w o n ce t h e i s s u e s t h a t M r M o l e f e r a i s e d i s, t h a t i n re s p e ct o f t h a t c o n t r a ct , M r M a s h a b a h a d m a d e . . . h a d t o l d h i m c e r t a i n t h i n g s a b o u t h o w t h a t c o n t ra ct h a d been... we need not go there. But as a result of that, what would PRASA in relation to t a ki n g t h e m a t t e r f u rt h e r, b e si d e s g o i n g t o t h e h i g h c o u rt t o s e t a s i d e t h e co n t ra ct ? MR 10 D I N G I S WAY O : It... there was a gentleman called P h i l e m o n M a m a b o l o w h o w a s i n t h e s e c u ri t y d e p a rt m e n t . J u st b y h i m s e l f , h e t o o k. . . C h a i r p e r s o n , w h a t . . . b y e n l a r g e w a s t h e c o m p l a i n t t o t h e p u b l i c p r o t e ct o r t h a t w a s l a u n c h e d in 2012 around... I think he went around 2015. H e d e p o s e d t o a n a ff i d a vi t a n d r e p o rt e d t h o s e m a t t e r s , a n u m b e r o f t h o s e m a t t e r s t o t h e p o l i c e . A n d i n t h a t r e p o rt , h e i n cl u d e d t h e S w i f a m b o m a t t e r. So when... after the board had i n ve st i g a t e d the t ra n s a ct i o n a n d t h e se i s s u e s t h a t c o u n s e l r e f e r r e d t o , c a m e u p , t h e i n ve st i g a t o r s a s si st e d M r M a m a b o l o t o p r e p a r e a 20 m o r e c o m p r e h e n si v e a ff i d a vi t t h a t i s sp e ci f i c a l l y w i t h t h e S w i f a m b o t r a n sa c t i o n . And that was then filed under the same case number t h a t M r M a m a b o l o h a d i n i t i at e d . I think it is Hebrew case n u m b e r. So that matter was then taken to the police. Page 107 of 224 At some 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 p o i n t , t h e H AW K S b e c a m e i n vo l v e d b e ca u s e o f t h e si z e o f t h e t r a n sa ct i o n a n d t h e i s s u e s t h a t a r e i n v o l v e d i n i t . A D V S O N I S C : S o r r y. We r e y o u i n v o l v e d i n i t a s w e l l ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, C h a i r. A t t h e b e g i n n i n g i t w a s j u st t h e b o a r d a n d t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s w h o w e re d e a l i n g w i t h t h e m a t t e r. A r o u n d , I t h i n k 2 0 1 6 , a r o u n d A p ri l , t h e n t h e b o a r d st a rt e d i n v o l v i n g t h e l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t a s w e l l i n t h e s e . . . i n t h e d e a l s b e t w e e n P R A S A a n d t h e H AW K S . So that is how we got involved in the dealings between 10 P R A S A a n d t h e H AW K S . And if I am allowed Chair? I can p r o b a b l y t a l k a b o u t t w o m e e t i n g s t h a t st o o d o u t f o r m e w h i c h w a s o n e v e r y b i g m e e t i n g w h i c h w a s. . . w e r e l e d b y M r P o p o M o l e f e f ro m t h e P R A S A si d e . T h e i n v e st i g a t o r s t h a t h a d b e e n e n g a g e d b y t h e b o a r d w e re t h e r e a n d t h e H AW K S w e re t h e re . We m e t w i t h a gentleman called General Khana. W h e n I l e f t t h a t m e e t i n g C h a i r, I w a s v e r y e n c o u ra g e d . It appeared that there was very work that had been done by t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s. 20 T h a t t h e H AW K S h a d a p p r e ci a t e d t h e ki n d o f w o r k t h a t had been done and they really believed that this is a very i m p o rt a n t m a t t e r t h a t n e e d e d t o b e i n v e st i g a t e d . A n u m b e r o f u n d e rt a ki n g s w e re m a d e i n t h a t m e e t i n g b y t h e H AW K S t o s a y, “ y o u k n o w, t h e re i s a n e e d t o t a k e t h i s m a t t e r t o t h e FA FI ”. Page 108 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 I t h i n k i t i s c a l l e d . . . t h e i n st i t u t i o n i n t h e p o l i c e i s c a l l e d FA F I . B u t i t d e a l s w i t h a s s e t s f o rf e i t u r e a n d m e e t i n g s w e r e s u b se q u e n t l y a r r a n g e d w i t h t h a t i n s t i t u t i o n . B u t t h e n t h e w h o l e t h i n g ki n d o f g r o u n d t o a h a l t a n d w e re i n e x p l i c a b l e g r o u n d t o a h a l t . W h e n . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] CHAIRPERSON: I d o n o t w a n t y o u t o l o s e y o u r t ra i n o f thought. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: B u t j u st g i v e s o m e t i m e f r a m e i f y o u ca n . That from meeting w h i ch you came out very e n co u r a g e d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . CHAIRPERSON: . . . a n d w h e n w a s i t , m o r e o r l e s s, e v e n i f i t i s n o t t h e a ct u a l d a t e ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye a r a n d m o n t h . O r w h a t p a rt o f t h e y e a r ? A n d t h e t i m e w h e n y o u f e l t t h a t e v e r yt h i n g c a m e t o a h a l t i n e x p l i c a b l e ? I j u st w a n t t h o s e t i m e f ra m e s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 C h a i r, i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n t h e m e e t i n g w a s i n A p ri l 2 0 1 6 . A n d I t h i n k t h e r e w e re f o l l o w u p m e e t i n g s b e t w e e n t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r s. S o rr y. A n d t h e . . . a n d FA F I . I w a s n o t p a rt o f t h a t m e e t i n g b e ca u s e p a rt o f t h e d i s c u s si o n s a r e c o n f i d e n t i a l a n d s e cr e t a t t h a t st a g e o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n b u t w e c a m e i n t o t h e m a i n i n t r o d u ct o r y m e e t i n g b e t w e e n . . . b e f o r e t h e n i t t y - g ri t t y w a s d i s c u s se d . Page 109 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 At that time, a... one of the s u b - co n t r a ct o r s to We r k sm a n s a n d I t h i n k t h a t c o m p a n y i s n o w c a l l e d C r o w e b u t a t t h e t i m e i t w a s c a l l e d H o w a rt h , h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d b y t h e H AW K S t o d o t h e c a s h -f l o w a n a l y si s i n r e s p e ct o f S w i f a m b o . T h e a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e H AW K S a n d P R A S A w a s that PRASA would pay their fees that are i n cu r re d by H o w a rt h a n d H o w a rt h w o u l d r e p o rt t o t h e H AW K S . S o t h o s e w e r e p a rt o f t h e d i s cu s si o n s i n t h e s e p a ra t e m e e t i n g t o d e a l w i t h i s su e s t h a t r e l a t e d t o t h e S e ct i o n 2 0 5 ’s 10 a n d t h e s u b p o e n a s a n d a l l o f t h o s e t h i n g s. I t h i n k i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a f t e r t h o se i n i t i a l m e e t i n g s t h a t e ve r yt h i n g j u st w e n t d e a d l i k e . . . s o t h e t i m e f r a m e w o u l d b e w h e n t h i s. . . t h e f o l l o w i n g u p w o u l d h a v e c o m e a ro u n d M a y a n d t h e n a f t e r M a y, i t s e e m e d e v e r yt h i n g w o u l d j u st ground to a halt. CHAIRPERSON: So you said the big meeting which gave y o u e n c o u r a g e m e n t w a s i n . . . d i d yo u s a y M a y ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : A p ri l . C H A I R P E R S O N : A p ri l ? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o j u st a b o u t a m o n t h l a t e r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . e ve r yt h i n g c a m e t o a h a l t ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, t h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. And in between there would have Page 110 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 been about how many meetings if you are able to say that b e ca u s e you said there would have been intervening meetings? M R D I N G I S WAY O : We l l , t h o s e w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n . . . I w o u l d n o t h a ve b e e n p r e s e n t i n t h o s e m e e t i n g s. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. But you know that some meetings took place. MR D I N G I S WAY O : Those would have been with the i n v e st i g a t o r s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: But you know that some meetings did take p l a c e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: H AW K S o r. . . ...some and the... people or from the PRASA SIU or and the whatever o r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t w a s t h e H AW K S a n d I t h i n k FA FI . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I believe that were engagements as well with AFU. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t h i n k t h o s e w e re t h e i n st i t u t i o n s t h a t w e re t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. O k a y, o k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h e A F U b e i n g t h e A s s e t F o rf e i t u r e U n i t ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o rr e ct . Page 111 of 224 T h e A F U o f t h e MPA . 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 And I think there was also engagements with... there were p r o s e c u t o r s a p p o i n t e d t o l e a d t h e H AW K S t e a m t h a t w a s i n v e st i g a t i n g . S o t h e r e w e re e n g a g e m e n t s a s w e l l w i t h t h o s e people., ADV SONI SC: A n d y o u h a ve h a d t h a t o n e m e e t i n g w i t h t h e . . . yo u w e r e p r e s e n t a t w h i c h . . . y o u w e r e p a rt o f t h e delegation led by Mr Molefe. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct . ADV 10 SONI SC: Did you h a ve any meetings with the prosecutors? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. Ye s, w e d i d . ADV SONI SC: And how did you find them? MR D I N G I S WAY O : That came a R o u n d a b o u t . . . p r o b a b l y a ro u n d 2 0 1 8 . little bit later C h a i r. I initially said there a r e t w o m e e t i n g s t h a t st o o d o u t . A n d I j u st r e q u e st c o u n s e l t o j u st a l l o w m e t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. I w a s g o i n g t o a s k y o u a b o u t t h a t . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. B u t ca I a l s o b e a l l o w e d t o j u st i n s e rt a n o t h e r. . . s h a r e w i t h y o u C h a i r ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y] MR D I N G I S WAY O : The... so the s e co n d meeting . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , n o w. I a m s o r r y M r D i n g i s w a y o . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u st w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w h i l st y o u a r e Page 112 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 g o i n g t o , a s yo u s a y i n se rt s o m e m e e t i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ] M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e f i r st i m p o rt a n t m e e t i n g t h a t y o u a r e a w a r e o f h a p p e n s i n A p ri l M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: And then e v e r yt h i n g comes to a halt inexplicable in May sometime? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ja. A n d t h e m e e t i n g t h a t y o u w i l l i n s e rt , falls in between? M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o . CHAIRPERSON: It is later? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t i s l a t e r. CHAIRPERSON: O ka y. B e f o re y o u g o t o t h a t m e e t i n g . What is that you heard or you observed or you saw which m a d e y o u t o c o n cl u d e t h a t t h e r e w a s t h i s i n e x p l i c a b l e h a l t o f t h e a t t e m p t s t o . . . f o r t h e H AW K S t o i n v e st i g a t e a n d FA FI o r A F U , a l l t h e s e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n ci e s t o d o s o m e t h i n g ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 C h a i r p e r s o n , a t t h a t t i m e , t h e m a t t e r s. . . m o st o f t h e m a t t e r s w e r e h a n d l e d b y t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o , f r o m t i m e t o t i m e , w e w o u l d h a ve m e e t i n g s w i t h We r k sm a n s a n d j u st g e n e r a l l y d i s c u s s w h a t i s happening to the i n ve st i g a t i o n i n cl u d i n g i n v e st i g a t i o n . Page 113 of 224 the c ri m i n a l 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : A n d t h e n t h e f r u st ra t i o n s t h e n w e r e c o m i n g f r o m t h a t e n d o f We r k sm a n s t o s a y t h a t t h e y a r e n o t getting the feedback from the H AW K S a ro u n d f u rt h e r engagements with them. Because, as I u n d e r st a n d it C h a i r, when you are i n v e st i g a t i n g t r a n s a ct i o n l i k e S w i f a m b o a n d y o u a r e t r yi n g t o f o l l o w c a sh , y o u h a v e t o . . . i t i s a l m o st l i k e a n o n i o n . S o y o u st a rt o n t h e o u t e r si d e t o s a y, w h a t . . . w h o d i d 10 Swifambo pay? A n d t r y t o l i n k t h o se p a y m e n t s t o t h e purpose of Swifambo so that you isolate those that seems st ra n g e i n re s p e ct o f b u s i n e s s o f S w i f a m b o a n d t h e n yo u st a rt f o l l o w i n g t h e c a s h f r o m t h a t e n d . F o r a n e x a m p l e . I f S w i f a m b o w e r e t o p a y Vo s s l o h w h i c h w a s t h e O E M, t h a t t yp e o f a p a y m e n t w o u l d n o t r a i s e a f l a g b u t i f S w i f a m b o w a s t o p a y F a n i I n c o r p o r a t e d , t h e n y o u h a ve t o a s k, w h o i s F a n i I n c o r p o r a t e d a n d F a n i I n co rp o r a t e d belongs Fani Dingiswayo who is an employee of PRASA. T h e n y o u . . . s o t h e y w e r e f r u st ra t e d b y t h e f a ct t h a t t h e 20 f o l l o w u p s u b p o e n a s w e r e n o t c o m i n g b a c k. S o t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e d o i n g t h e a n a l y si s w o u l d d o t h e f i r st l a ye r o f a n a l y si s a n d t h e n sa y, “ w e n e e d t h e s e o t h e r s u b p o e n a s t o b e i s s u e d a n d t h e b a n k st a t e m e n t s t o b e b r o u g h t ”. A n d s o t h a t w a s t h e f ru st r a t i o n t h a t t h e y w e r e getting. Page 114 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: N o w d i d y o u s a y. . . y o u w e r e t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s w h o h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d b y We r k sm a n s’ f i rm ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Th e i n v e st i g a t o r s, t h e y w e r e We r k s m a n s ’ i n v e st i g a t o r s so t o s p e a k ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h e y w e r e s u b - c o n t r a ct o r s. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e re s u b - co n t r a ct o r s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, C h a i r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. But they were reporting to We r k sm a n s ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. S o y o u w e r e h a vi n g i n t e r a ct i o n s w i t h s o m e o f t h e m a n d y o u . . . t h e r e p o rt s t h a t y o u w e r e g e t t i n g w h e n i n t e r a ct i n g w i t h t h e m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: . . . w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e f e e l i n g f r u st ra t e d b e ca u s e t h e y w e r e n o t m a ki n g h e a d w a y ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct . 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d p a rt o f t h e r e a so n w h y t h e y w e re n o t m a k i n g h e a d w a y s b e c a u se so m e s u b p o e n a s h a d l e d . . . t h a t had been issued to try and get to see where the money went t o a n d t h e n t h e s u b p o e n a s w e r e n o t c o m i n g b a c k? MR D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, so the way I u n d e r st o o d the i n t e r a ct i o n C h a i r w a s t h a t t h e i n v e st i g a t o r w i l l s a y, “I n e e d Page 115 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 you to issue subpoena for the following entities and banking a c c o u n t s ”. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s. MR D I N G I S WAY O : The work of issuing the... t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : S u b p o e n a s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ...subpoenas would be done by the police. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : And then the police would go to the b a n k s a f t e r i s s u i n g . . . h a vi n g t h e s e s u b p o e n a s i s s u e d . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : st a t e m e n t s. They would go to the banks to get the A n a l y si s i s d o n e a n d t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s a y s, “I n e e d t h e f o l l o w i n g ”. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : So at some point that flow through, si m p l y ca m e t o a h a l t . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s. Now that is v e r y i m p o rt a n t Mr D i n g i s w a y o . M r S o n i , w e n e e d t o g e t t o t h e i n ve st i g a t o r s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : We n e e d t h e m t o t e l l u s w h o w a s n o t d o i n g his job or her job. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I f t h e y w e r e r e q u i re t o i n v e st i g a t e s u c h a n Page 116 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 i m p o rt a n t m a t t e r o f co r ru p t i o n a t P R A S A a n d t h e y n e e d e d the police to a s si st them by way of getting c e rt a i n i n f o r m a t i o n b y s u b p o e n a s a n d t h e p o l i c e o r t h e H AW K S o r w h o e ve r i t w a s, w e r e n o t d o i n g t h e i r j o b o r w e r e r e f u si n g t o d o t h e i r j o b f o r w h a t e v e r r e a so n , m a y b e b e c a u s e t h e m o n e y t ra i l st a rt e d t o l e a d t o c e rt a i n p e o p l e . I n e e d t o k n o w. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o a r e t h o s e p o l i c e o ff i c e r s w h o w e r e n o t doing their jobs? 10 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : We n e e d t o . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] ADV SONI SC: And to whom did it lead? C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . We n e e d t o g e t t o t h e b o t t o m o f t h i s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s a l o t o f t a xp a y e r s ’ m o n e y. A D V S O N I S C : A b s o l u t e l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w e r e t h e p o l i c e o ff i ci a l s w h o w e r e n o t doing their jobs? B e c a u se i f t h i s i s c o r r e ct , t h e y w e r e f ru st r a t i n g a v e r y i m p o rt a n t i n ve st i g a t i o n . S o . . . t h a n k y o u M r 20 Dingiswayo. Yo u . . . I a m s u r e t h a t yo u w i l l b e a b l e t o s u p p l y M r S o n i a n d t h e C o m m i s si o n i n v e st i g a t o r s w i t h n a m e s i f y o u a re a b l e t o o r t h o se w h o c o u l d a s si st w h o w e r e b e i n g f r u st r a t e d w h e n t h e y w e r e t r yi n g t o d o t h e i r j o b s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : C e rt a i n l y, C h a i r. Page 117 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV SONI SC: T h e n l e t u s g e t t o t h e s e co n d m e e t i n g t h a t y o u sa y st o o d o u t f o r y o u M r D i n g i s w a y o . M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o t h e s e c o n d m e e t i n g w a s. . . I t h i n k i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d N o v e m b e r / O ct o b e r 2 0 1 6 . I think it w a s a t a t i m e w h e n Mr C o l l i n s L e t s o a l o w a s t h e a ct i n g C E O of PRASA. B ri g a d i e r K h a n a re q u e st e d a m e e t i n g a n d h e c a m e t o P R A S A w i t h , I t h i n k, B r i g a d i e r M a ki n y a n e a n d w i t h t h e m . . . 10 s o r r y. T h e n t h e r e . . . o n o u r si d e i t w a s M r L e t so a l o a n d m y s e l f . I t h i n k t h e c o m p a n y s e c re t a ry, t h e t h e n co m p a n y s e c re t a ry, M r L i n d i k a y a Z i d e m a y h a v e b e e n t h e r e a n d m y m a n a g e r, M a rt h a N g o y e w a s t h e r e . I n t h i s m e e t i n g , t h e H AW K S w e r e c o n ce r n e d , t h e y s a i d , a b o u t t h e a ff i d a v i t o f Mr M a m a b o l a . A n d t h e i r c o n c e r n , t h e y indicated, was the f a ct that he makes c e rt a i n legal c o n cl u si o n s i n t h e a ff i d a vi t , f o r a n e xa m p l e , t h a t s o a n d s o a n d so a n d s o w e re a ct i n g i n c o m m o n p u r p o s e a n d t h e y 20 committed fraud. S o i t ca m e a s a . . . s o h e sa i d , “l o o k, w e a r e f e e l i n g st u c k b e ca u s e w e a r e w o rri e d t h a t i f yo u t a k e t h i s m a t t e r f o r w a rd , M r M a m a b o l a i s n o t g o i n g t o s u r v i ve c r o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n b e ca u s e h e i s t h e A 1 . ” And the A1 is the f i r st p e r so n Page 118 of 224 to make the f i r st 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 complaint. So he would be the one who needs to give e vi d e n c e . A n d h e w i l l n o t b e a b l e t o s u p p o rt h i s l e g a l c o n cl u si o n s. CHAIRPERSON: But I think Mr Mamabola does not have t o . . . h e n e e d e d t o si m p l y st a t e f a ct s . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t h e k n e w. And if he made the legal c o n cl u si o n t h a t w a s w r o n g , t h a t i s re a l l y n e i t h e r h e r e n o r there. 10 Th e y h a d t o l o o k a t w h e t h e r t h e f a ct s t h a t h e s p e a k i n g t o , re v e a l e d t h a t t h e r e w a s p ri m a f a ci e a cri m e , w h e t h e r i t w a s t h e s a m e c ri m e h e w a s t a l ki n g a b o u t o r a d i ff e r e n t cr i m e . M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . CHAIRPERSON: It is neither here nor there. M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r p e r s o n , t h a t i s e x a ct l y w h a t w e t o l d them. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : the 20 whole somebody point coming We a l s o t o l d t h e m t h a t o u r vi e w i s t h a t of i n v e st i g a t i n g . . . to the police the and whole sa y i n g point of please i n v e st i g a t e t h i s, i s s o t h a t t h e p o l i c e c a n f i n d e vi d e n c e . And we have indicated to them that this is evidence that o n l y t h e p o l i c e h a v e t h e l e g a l a u t h o ri t y t o f i n d . So when M a m a b o l a s a y s, F a n i D i n g i s w a y o g o t g r a t i f i c a t i o n f ro m t h i s c o n t r a ct , h e d o e s n o t h a v e t h e l e g a l a u t h o ri t y t o g o i n t o F a n i Page 119 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 D i n g i s w a y o ’s b a n ki n g a c c o u n t . H e m a y b e m a ki n g t h a t c o n cl u si o n o n t h e b a si s t h a t a f t e r this award was made the l i f e s t yl e of Fani D i n g i s w a yo d r a m a t i c a l l y ch a n g e d . S o t h e p o l i c e t h e n w i t h t h e i r l e g a l a u t h o ri t y, s h o u l d b e t h e o n e s t h a t g o a n d f i n d a n d f o l l o w t h e m o n e y. If the money does not lead to that person and does not lead to a n yb o d y. I t d o e s n o t . . . s o r ry. It does not lead to anybody w h o i t s h o u l d n o t l e a d t o , t h e re i s n o o n e w h o s h o u l d b e 10 prosecuted. B u t i f i t l e a d s t o s o m e b o d y t h a t s h o u l d n o t r e c e i ve t h e m o n e y, t h e n t h a t p e r s o n m u st b e p ro s e c u t e d . And we said, y o u c a n n o t si m p l y s a y b e c a u s e y o u t h i n k t h a t t h e l e g a l c o n cl u si o n i s i n c o rr e ct , y o u d o n o t i n v e st i g a t e . Yo u i n v e st i g a t e t o c h e c k w h e t h e r t h e l e g a l co n cl u si o n i s c o r r e ct . A n d w h e n t h e e vi d e n c e i s g a t h e r e d , y o u t h e n p r e s e n t t h e e vi d e n c e t o c o u rt ”. A n d m a yb e t h e l e g a l c o n cl u s i o n i s l i k e , C h a i r, y o u w e r e s a yi n g , i f t h e l e g a l c o n cl u si o n i s t h i s c ri m e , t h e n t h a t i s t h a t 20 c ri m e . O r a n o t h e r c ri m e i s a n o t h e r c ri m e b u t i t c a n n o t b e . B u t t h e w a y h e w a s p re s e n t i n g i t , i t w a s a s i f t h i s w a s t h e e n d o f t h e r o a d f o r t h i s e n t i r e i n v e st i g a t i o n . B e c a u s e w e w e re c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h a t st a n c e a n d , I m e a n h e h a d , I t h i n k, a f o u r - p a g e l e t t e r t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Remind me. Who was speaking here? Page 120 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Wa s i t . . . ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : G e n e r a l K h a n a . CHAIRPERSON: General Khana. M R D I N G I S WAY O : C o r re ct C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d j u st f o r t h e s a k e o f u n d e r st a n d i n g p r o p e rl y. F r o m P R A S A’s s a i d , yo u s a i d i t w a s yo u , i t w a s M s N g o y e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. I t h i n k t h e a ct i n g co m p a n y. . . s o r r y, t h e t h e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 10 CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zide. M R D I N G I S WAY O : . . . t h e a ct i n g c o m p a n y s e cr e t a ry. . . s o r ry. I a m p u t t i n g a ct i n g t o t h e w ro n g d e si g n a t i o n . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. MR D I N G I S WAY O : [ l a u g h s] The a ct i n g CEO was Mr L e t sa o l o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, j a . MR D I N G I S WAY O : He was present. And the Group C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y w a s M r Zi d e . H e w a s a l so p r e s e n t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. A n d f r o m t h e p o l i c e ’s si d e i t w a s General Khana...? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I think it was general... General Khana was there. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t h i n k h e w a s a c c o m p a n i e d b y B ri g a d i e r Page 121 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Makinyane. CHAIRPERSON: Makinyane M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Do you know how we spell that name? M R D I N G I S WAY O : M - a - k -i - n - y -a - n - e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o h e w a s s a y i n g h e h a d a l e t t e r ? 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , h e h a d a f o u r p a g e l e t t e r w i t h h i m which he presented to the meeting. So it was a bit strange that he has this meeting for - he asked for the meeting and he gives us a letter and he wants us to discuss the letter at the meeting. CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : H’m. So we then said we will respond to the letter formally because, I mean, the way that this thing was being presented was that – was problematic. I think he also complained that they did not have 20 information because the m ore comprehensive affidavit of Mamabolo had a lot of annexures. So he said we do not have these annexures. We said but we understand that you were provided with that. So he then responded to that letter and indicated these concerns from my view to say we believe that the ball is in Page 122 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 your court because of the legal mandate and the legal authority that you carry which we do not have. A n d I t h i n k w e d o , i n t h a t l e t t e r, m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o the April meeting and the outcomes of that April meeting and what happened after the April meeting because we thought it is necessary to just go back to say this is where we were and when we were here we were very happy and then everything comes to a – grinds to a halt. When it grinds to halt, we find that you come now with this letter to 10 us and not to the people that you were interfacing with, you come directly to PRASA to say this is my concern. CHAIRPERSON: And you said this meeting happens towards the end of 2015? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: 20 2016. It was 2016? Ye s a n d I t h i n k a r o u n d O c t o b e r. Around October? Ye s , N o v e m b e r. So about one and half years after you felt things came to a halt? M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o , C h a i r. S o i t i s A p r i l 2 0 1 6 w h e n w e had that first …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I thought it was April 2015. M R D I N G I S WAY O : No, no, no, it is 2016. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, 2016? O h , o k a y. Page 123 of 224 O k a y, s o t h e 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 major meeting that gave you encouragement happens in the April 2016. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Okay and everything seems to come to a half in May 2016. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And then this meeting that certainly would not have encouraged you at all happens in October 2016? 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . J a , o k a y. T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. O k a y. S o h o w d o e s t h a t m e e t i n g e n d ? So the culmination of the meeting is t h a t w e w i l l w r i t e a f o r m a l r e s p o n s e t o t h e l e t t e r. We will consider the letter that was just brought to us at the meeting and formally respond. CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: But when General – is it Khana is Khan? Khana. Khana? Khana – K-h-a-n-a. Ja, Khana. When he was speaking at this meeting was he basically making the same points that he – that he appeared in the letter that he had given you? M R D I N G I S WAY O : B y a n d l a r g e , C h a i r. Page 124 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And was the effect of what he was saying and the effect of the letter that they were stopping the investigation because of what Mr Mamabolo said in his affidavit? M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, I s p e a k u n d e r c o r r e c t i o n , I b e l i e v e t h a t w e h a v e t h e l e t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . And we will make it available. Ye s . I believe that was the conclusion that this is because of – he was basically saying because of all these things we cannot proceed. CHAIRPERSON: But these things were what? Yo u h a v e told me about him saying that Mr Mamabolo makes legal conclusion in his affidavit. What else did he put up as causing them to say we do not think we are going to go forward or something to that effect? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : recollection conclusions. Chairperson, the thing that was in my intractable in that letter was the legal I mean, I think he knows Mr Mamabolo p e r s o n a l l y. CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . And like he was expressing sentiments Page 125 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 like he knows Mr Mamabolo and he is worried that he will be embarrassed in court and if …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Because of a legal conclusion? M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: That is very strange. M R D I N G I S WAY O : There was, as I said, also the issue about the fact that they were saying they do not have the annexures. ADV SONI SC: 10 The annexures. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: MR To t h e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] Affidavit. D I N G I S WAY O : To the affidavits which I later established was not correct. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : But, I mean, we re – we gave them the documents again. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . And so you believe the letter can be found? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Ye s , C h a i r. I w i l l … Can we get it? I wish we had it here. Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , C h a i r. But that is your recollection of what the letter also says? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . Page 126 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. So you then went back and you were going to respond. I think that is where we were. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: C h a i r, I j u s t w a n t t o f o r t h e r e c o r d , i n w h o s e n a m e w a s t h a t l e t t e r, t h e l e t t e r t h a t w a s g i v e n t o PRASA? M R D I N G I S WAY O : The letter that was given to PRASA was addressed to Ms Ngoye. ADV SONI SC: 10 No, no, no, who signed or who wrote the letter? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Oh. General Khana. What was his position within the Hawks? Wa s h e t h e s e c o n d - i n - c o m m a n d ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : He was the head of a unit called The Serious Economic Offenses. CHAIRPERSON: Serious E conom ic Offenses? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 Ye s . C h a i r, t h e n t h i s m e e t i n g t h a t I j u s t t o l d you about is the one that I inserted because I thought the last meeting flows from this …[intervenes] ADV SONI SC: B e f o r e y o u g e t t o t h e t h i r d m e e t i n g , s o r r y, Mr Dingiswayo, when you wrote back to General Khana what was your – did you agree with him, did you dispute what the correctness of what he was saying? Page 127 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: What was the thrust of your response? Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h e t h r u s t o f t h e r e s p o n s e , C h a i r, i s what I have said, that the position that we held even at the meeting that the whole point of Mr Mamabolo not going to arrest those people that he named there himself is because it is the police that must be reported to and it is the police that must conduct an investigation and the police that have the authority to arrest but the main thrust was that these 10 are economic crimes and the only way you deal with an e c o n o m i c c r i m e i s t o f o l l o w t h e m o n e y. Which is, I think, a discussion that I think we have had with the Hawks ad nauseam even on the Siyangena investigation, that you j u s t h a v e g o t t o f o l l o w t h e m o n e y. So that was the thrust of the response. It was fairly a l e n g t h y r e s p o n s e , C h a i r, b e c a u s e w e f e l t t h a t w e h a v e t o be as detailed as that and at least that one I can make available almost immediately but I think the Brigadier Khana, it might take some time. 20 one from But I will request assistance from our investigators as well as Ms Ngoye to see if they can locate it. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, j a . N o , t h a n k y o u . We should get both, ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : So on that day that I delivered the response, because I had all these lever arch files as well Page 128 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 as our response, I went to the Hawks offices in Pretoria and gave them the documents. We had som e bit of a chit chat with me giving them the essence of what our response is. Then one of the officers accom panied me, because their offices, at those premises, you need a rem ote and there is no security guard. In fact, it is a nondescript building, you would not know that there is police there, there is nothing that says police. 10 So one of the members, of the officials, accom panied me so that he can open the entrance for me. So I thought let me just ask this gentleman because this seems so easy for me, maybe there is something that I am missing. I said to him if you look at the application that was launched by PRASA …[intervenes] ADV SONI SC: This is the Swifambo application? M R D I N G I S WAY O : That Swifambo application. I think there is a very interesting thing that happened which is in the affidavits and that is the meeting between Mr Molefe 20 and Mr Mashaba at the Maslow Hotel and the outcomes of that meeting. Have you not considered having a conversation with Mr Mashaba? My understanding of what Mr Mashaba had presented to Mr Molefe is that it looks like I got myself entangled in something I should not have gotten myself Page 129 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 entangled in. CHAIRPERSON: Might have to lose my assets. MR DINGISWAYO: That is correct. And he appeared to, from my reading, he appeared to have received the shock of his life when he received instructions to make payments to people that are not associated with Swifambo, with the business of Swifambo. He was a sole director and he knew who were Swifambo’s counterparties in transactions and 10 these people are people he did not know. So I said to him maybe if somebody like that can assist this thing is correct. Chair, there was an awkward silence for a few seconds and this gentleman said to me I feel bad that you have to ask me this question because I have been an investigator for a number of years, I have done investigations in the North West and blah, blah, blah. So he went on and told me his life story in the police and he says what you are telling me is something that we have asked from our superiors and I was just instructed not to 20 touch Mr Mashaba. So I said to him look, I do not want to put you in a difficult position, let me go, what you have told me is enough. But the essence of it was that he had been instructed not to take that route. our discussion seemed to be Between me and him in a Page 130 of 224 very easy route and 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 something to explore. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, he seemed to have been instructed not to do what he believed was the right thing to do in order to do his job? MR DINGISWAYO: That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Do you – is that somebody that you know, is that somebody that you met once on that occasion, is that somebody that …[intervenes] MR DINGISWAYO: 10 CHAIRPERSON: I only met once, Chair. Oh, okay. MR DINGISWAYO: CHAIRPERSON: And I never met him again. Yes. MR DINGISWAYO: I think I may have enquired about him at some point. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. MR DINGISWAYO: CHAIRPERSON: And I was told he had left the police. Oh. MR DINGISWAYO: I was told something like that, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Oh. But is that because you remembered his name? MR DINGISWAYO: I – you know, as I am talking about this, I am thinking – I think you are going to get there and I am trying to remember his name. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MR DINGISWAYO: But I think I may have it somewhere, Page 131 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, you see, maybe if he has left the police he might well be very – might be quite prepared to assist the country and tell us what he knows about why this investigation – why the Hawks do not seem to have done what they were expected to do or what he would have done but was prevented from doing and who prevented him. So one knows that an investigation such as the investigation that this Commission has conducted depends 10 to a very large extent on men and women in the country who will put the country first and who will have the courage to stand up and to speak the truth, sometimes under difficult circumstances and we have seen some of –some of the people who have taken that stand, who have come before this Commission and the country should be very grateful to them. But there are many who are staying away from the Commission when they have knowledge of very bad things which should be told to this Commission that have been 20 done by certain people who are staying away from the Commission, who are not putting their country first but there may still be many who have not come forward who, if c o n t a c t e d , m i g h t j u s t s a y o k a y, I w i l l c o m e . So maybe even the one that you are speaking about, wherever he is, even if we do not contact him, if he Page 132 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 hears maybe he may just decide to make himself available to the Commission. If there are not enough people in this country who are prepared to come forward and make sacrifices and take a stand, all that we are doing will be in vain. We will not m a k e t h i s c o u n t r y a b e t t e r c o u n t r y. If we are all too scared, if we are all putting our own self interest first, if we all putting our organisations’ interest first, if we are all putting certain wrong institutions 10 first and not putting the country then all of these efforts and all of the money that this Commission is using to try get to the truth will all be in vain and I continue to be grateful to each and every one of those people who have come here and who - and told the nation some of the things that we heard and those who have stood by the truth even in difficult times over the years as I have been told by numerous witnesses. So we need his name and we need others who know exactly why certain institutions were not doing their job to 20 come forward and tell us. When they tell us, they are telling the nation, the nation gets to know what was going on, we will get to be able to make recommendations that hopefully can contribute, if implemented, to make this c o u n t r y a b e t t e r c o u n t r y. Ye s , t h a n k y o u . ADV SONI SC: Thank you, Chairperson. Page 133 of 224 Mr Dingiswayo, 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 you will look at your documents and so and try and identify the person but as the Chairperson has said, if that person h e a r s y o u r e v i d e n c e h o p e f u l l y, h e w i l l c o m e e v e n o n h i s own whether you not find his name. M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, s o r r y, c a n I j u s t o n e t h i n g ? My observation of how the PRASA criminal investigations were conducted is a case study of how to look like they are investigating. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR When you are actually not investigating? D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , I was very happy with the evidence that was led yesterday and this morning around the property transactions because it is evidence that we h a v e b e e n l o o k i n g f o r, f o r a l o n g t i m e , i t i s e v i d e n c e t h a t i s sitting in the hands of bankers. It is not evidence that is sitting with the people who are implicated in the criminal offences and the police have sim ply not gone to the bank to ask for the bank statements so that we can be able to do the very sterling work that was done by Mr Oellerman this morning to take you through the property transactions. 20 I do not believe that it takes long, I think the concern as well is the fact that the money is disappearing, the properties are lying unattended to and, I mean, it is just construction dissipating. sites, the value of that property is The biggest loser in the process, it comes the c o u n t r y. Page 134 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI Ye s , o k a y. SC: investigations. Before I leave this theme, general Yo u d e a l t w i t h t h e S w i f a m b o i n v e s t i g a t i o n . During the course of that you mentioned a little earlier the – you said the same thing happened in the Siyangena investigation. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Now you do not have to go into details unless you want to but what happened there? 10 If you could tell the Chairperson. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Chairperson, the lesson learnt from the Swifambo investigation is that do not do the cash flow analysis, that is why it ground to a half at some point because now you are starting to see names of people, you are starting to see organisations that should not be seen associated with those transactions. So at the April meeting - because by the time we had the April meeting, the police had already appointed Howarth to do the cash flow analysis, so that work had 20 started on the Swifambo investigation. Now on the April meeting one of the things that General Khana said he is going to do is to do the same appointment that had been done on – because the appointment – that appointment necessitated that PRASA should issue a letter to Howarth to say we will cover your Page 135 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 fees, you report to the police. So after that meeting that letter was not issued to Howarth in accordance with what was discussed at the meeting that Howarth was going to be appointed to do the c a s h f l o w a n a l y s i s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r. That appointment never happened so that is why I am saying that whoever was controlling this investigation realised that if you make this appointment you are going to have 10 problems and I am saying I am happy with the evidence that was lead yesterday and today in the morning because now the things that were just in newspapers and such places are now clear that those reports, those news reports were accurate that those journalists did do the w o r k t h a t – i n a p r o p e r w a y. So they probably feel vindicated but, I mean, it is a bitter sweet experience that all these things came out in 2016 and it is only now in 2020 that they have been ventilated in public in a forum which is credible and the people 20 are inscription coming on this out bank to say and yes, there there is was clearly a TLM monies demanded this side and Mr Montana is asked for money and then he says I will pay tomorrow and then money is deposited there and then the payment is made. So to draw that – now I do not think that it would have taken the police and investigators a long time from Page 136 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 2016 to get to that point where you can clearly see what has happened. I mean, PRASA has had to spend millions litigating against people who have done it wrong and those people who were using the money coming from PRASA to defend themselves in the litigation. CHAIRPERSON: Well, to make it worse – and think as Mr Molefe was saying, on the one side PRASA has had to litigate against people that allegedly were engaged in corruption and that money corrupt the fraud in PRASA and 10 those people use that money to fight PRASA but PRASA has had to also litigate against the Hawks. PRASA goes to the Hawks and the SAPS and say go and catch them. There they are, here is the evidence, here is a complete – catch them, there is crime here. The Hawks do not seem to do much until PRASA says let us go to court to force the Hawks to do their job and what do the Hawks do? oppose that, they fight with PRASA. They What kind of thing is that? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 ADV SONI SC: Ye s , C h a i r. Mr Dingiswayo, just so that I understand, at the April meeting with the Hawks with General Khana …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: One second, when we finish here, I will want to see you Mr Soni and Ms Langata(?) and the investigators that are attached to the PRASA work stream Page 137 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 s o M r O e l l e r m a n m u s t n o t g o a w a y. he is not around maybe If he is around. somebody can Or if send him information to say he should be here when we finish. ADV SONI SC: Ye s , w e w i l l d o t h a t , C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: O k a y. Now I just want to understand, one of the matters – in fact the main matter that was discussed was the Swifambo criminal case. But was Siyangena discussed at that meeting as well, at the April meeting? 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI In my recollection it was. SC: But the difference is in regard to Swifambo they appointed the assistance that Werksmans was providing but they refused to do that in regard to the S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : s o r r y, C h a i r, s o r r y. That is correct, Chairperson. It is slightly different. Well, At that meeting General Khana undertook that the appointment that was made to Howarth on the Swifambo case will be made to them to deal with the Siyangena case. 20 CHAIRPERSON: So he was saying he will use the same people for the Siyangena investigation as well? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Ye s , o k a y. And that PRASA must pay for it. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . Page 138 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: And that will in the sense fund …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: T h e s a m e a r r a n g e w o u l d a p p l y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : The same arrange and after that meeting, we – PRASA issued a letter to – I think it is the acting CEO was Mr Nathi Khena. He issued a letter to say to Howarth that PRASA will cover their fees, they must assist the Hawks. CHAIRPERSON: 10 ADV SONI SC: Ye s . But that appointment was never made by the Hawks. M R D I N G I S WAY O : No, it was never made. CHAIRPERSON: Did you get to know why it was not made? M R D I N G I S WAY O : It did never – this is one of the things, C h a i r, t h a t w e w e r e c o m p l a i n i n g a b o u t a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g o f April and I think in the response that we sent to the Hawks l a t e r t h a t y e a r t o t h e i r l e t t e r, w e a l s o i n c l u d e d t h a t t o s a y this is what – this is the impression we got from this 20 meeting and it just never happened. CHAIRPERSON: And now we are talking about the letter which you told us about which was responding to General K h a n a ’ s l e t t e r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . These are the things you dealt with in Page 139 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t h e l e t t e r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Now did General Khana ever respond to your letter? M R D I N G I S WAY O : No. CHAIRPERSON: He never responded? M R D I N G I S WAY O : No, he did not. CHAIRPERSON: But from what you said earlier it seems to me that the content of your letter was such that it called 10 for a response if he did not agree with the points you were making there because there, as I understand it, part of what you were saying is, you people cannot stop the investigation just because of what Mr Mamabolo says in terms of legal conclusions. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r, a n d t h a t w a s the expected – we were expecting one of two outcomes, either a response or some …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Action., M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 Action in terms of furthering the investigation. CHAIRPERSON: Because if they did not respond but they continued with the investigation then you could see that they were continuing. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Yo u w o u l d n o t m i n d t h e n n o t r e s p o n d i n g . Page 140 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Then that is fine. That would be a response in action and n o t i n – b y w a y o f a l e t t e r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: But if they were not going to …[intervenes] MR D I N G I S WAY O : Do anything then they should …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: 10 If they are going to maintain their stance despite what you said in your letter then you expected them to respond to your arguments. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. Which they did not do. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: MR Which they did not do. J a . To t h i s d a y. D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , yes, C h a i r, I think that …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: A s f a r a s y o u k n o w. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 To t h i s d a y, C h a i r, b e c a u s e t h a t i s p a r t of the reason why the board decided to launch a mandamus to compel them to do their work, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , c o n t i n u e . ADV SONI SC: Now Mr Dingiswayo in your affidavit you refer to the affidavit made by Ms Ngoye in October last y e a r. Page 141 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . If you look at paragraph ...[intervenes] M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Six. Ye s . Now can I just ask you this, you’ve read her affidavit? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: And you agree with what she says insofar as she talks about you? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 ADV SONI SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. J u s t n o w y o u t h e n s a y, b u t t h e r e a r e t w o matters you want to discuss and it’s not surprising, given your evidence that one of them concerns a company i n v o l v i n g M r R o y M o o d l e y, t h a t ’ s P r o d i g y a n d t h e o t h e r concern, Siyaya, the company involved involving Mr Mabunda? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . L e t ’ s d e a l w i t h t h e P r o d i g y m a t t e r, y o u ’ v e dealt with it quite extensively in your affidavit but if you could – we can go through what you say was wrong with 20 this matter and how it ended for you, but I’ll lead – I’m just, sort of presenting the panel. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Chair around March/February – March 2015, I received a request, so what happens is that if anyone in the business requires legal services they come to me as the General Manager of legal services and then I Page 142 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 decide what I’m going to do, whether I’m going to do the instruction or maybe ask one of my colleagues to assist with it. So I received this request from a Mr Sydney Khuzwayo who is in the Supply Chain Management Division of PRASA. The instruction …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: This is about when, just to get the time frames? M R D I N G I S WAY O : F e b r u a r y / M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h F e b r u a r y / M a r c h 2 0 1 5 , j a o k a y. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , s o I r e c e i v e t h i s i n s t r u c t i o n , t h e instruction is, we have this contract between PRASA and P r o d i g y, t h i s c o n t r a c t c o n t e m p l a t e s t h e t r a i n i n g o f 3 0 0 0 PRASA employees on customer services. We have – the contract, I think it was for three years, this contract has now lapsed but we have not trained 3000 we have trained just over 2000 so can you assist us to finalise that scope of work so that we can – because I think at that time, payment could not be made without a contract. So when you enter the details of the contract on the SAP system or 20 on the finance system you had to enter that length of the contract, so once it lapses then requisitions for payment will not happen and what was explained to me was that there has – the parties have been continuing with the work, notwithstanding that the contract has lapsed but now they are having problems with payment. Page 143 of 224 S o , I s a i d , o k a y, a s i s 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 normal give me the SCM file so that I have a better understanding of what is going on here. So I look at the SCM file…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: What does SCM file contain, the contract? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , s o t h e S C M f i l e w i l l c o n t a i n a l l the information that has led to the on boarding of the service provider for that contract. CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : So, whatever – however they were procured and all of this. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y s o i t w i l l g i v e y o u i n f o r m a t i o n that will tell you whether the contract is justified, whether there was a need for this contract. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . And how the contract – what processes were followed to conclude the contract. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y, s o y o u a s k e d f o r t h a t f i l e ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: That is correct. Ye s . Before you go on just so that we orientate ourselves, this is the matter you deal with from paragraph 14 of your affidavit, would that be correct? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. So, there are other matters that are dealt Page 144 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 with but they’re in a sense, peripheral to the main issue and I thought I would just indicate to you, where precisely Mr Dingiswayo is leading evidence from. CHAIRPERSON: MR Ye s , n o t h a t ’ s f i n e . D I N G I S WAY O : So Chair – so in terms of just orientating myself I look at this file to see what happened, I come across a letter that is dated 10 June 2010 which seems to be the genesis of this relationship. T h a t l e t t e r, C h a i r, i s m a r k e d a s M M D 3 a n d i s o n p a g e 1 3 8 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: The page number? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: 138. Ye s . ADV SONI SC: Chairperson – before you go on, just again orientation so you will recall, you might recall when Mr Holele gave evidence this letter came up. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, o k a y w e l l I c a n s e e t h a t i t h a s attracted my attention every time I see it. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . Chair it’s a bit of a confusing letter but h o w – i t s e e m s t h a t w h a t i t s o u g h t t o d o w a s t o s a y, a s P r o d i g y w e h a v e a g r a n t f r o m t h e S e r v i c e s S E TA o f I t h i n k – well the numbers are a bit also confusing but at the end it was seems as if the number that was agreed to R10.8million so we have a grant of R10.8million for training Page 145 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 purposes now you have people that need training. So, what we can do is, we can use this grant for training your people you claim the grant, so it’s a – for P RASA it becomes a zero sum, you pay Prodigy for training and then you claim from that grant that they have and the other thing is that there’s a – I think there was something around the fact that Prodigy was accredited to do something called recognition of prior learning…[intervenes] ADV SONI SC: 10 Sorry Mr Dingiswayo, may I just place on r e c o r d , y o u a r e r e a d i n g f r o m a d o c u m e n t n o w, a m I r i g h t ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . That’s MMD3 starting at page 138 and finishing at page 139. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Now what is that, could you describe it for the record so that when the Chairperson is looking at this l a t e r, h e k n o w s w h a t h e i s l o o k i n g a t . N o w t h i s i s a letter…[intervenes]. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 Ye s , i t ’ s a l e t t e r f r o m P r o d i g y, i t i s addressed to Mr Montana at PRASA, it’s signed by the D i r e c t o r a t P r o d i g y, a c e r t a i n N e r i s h n i S h u n m u g a m . ADV SONI SC: And the date? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: The date of the letter is 10 June 2010. Sorry you were explaining what this letter is about. Page 146 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , n o w C h a i r o n p a g e 1 3 9 , t h e t h i r d line, the sentence there says, “These interventions will also include recognition of prior learning and we’ll align to test critical skills required by PRASA”. So, it appeared that – and if I recall I may have seen, also, in this SCM file a submission to Mr Montana to say that PRASA would like to engage Prodigy by way of a confinement because they are the only people who are 10 accredited to do recognition of prior learning. So that was the reason for the confinement, that you won’t be able to get another person to do this for you. So, you will see that t h e – M r M o n t a n a h a s m a d e a n o t e o n t h a t l e t t e r, t h e r e o n page 138 and he seems quite excited about the proposal and gives an instruction that the necessary documents should be prepared so that the relationship can be established. CHAIRPERSON: And I see that he seems to have – the letter was written on the 10th of June 2010. 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . And he signed that hand-written note on the 10th of June, the year doesn’t appear on my copy but it has to be 2010. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I don’t think that he could have waited Page 147 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 u n t i l i t w a s 1 0 J u n e o f a n o t h e r y e a r, s o i t h a s t o b e 2 0 1 0 . M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . So it means it was written on the 10th of June 2010, probably delivered by hand or so, delivered to him say day and same day he made that note there and signed to accept it, to say it should be accepted, actually not to say it should be accepted, he says, it is accepted. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s C h a i r. Ye s o k a y. So, then there’s a – then there’s the following document which is MMD4…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: But I know that we have dealt with this document – this letter before but basically Prodigy says, f r o m w h a t y o u s a y, s a y s w e h a v e g o t m o n e y t h a t w e – t h a t can be used for training, is that right, is that what you’re saying? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . And you have people that need to be trained, we can provide the training but then it says, it 20 says, you will pay us and claim back from that source that we’re talking about but that will be a different source, not them, is that so? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t w i l l b e t h e S E TA . I t w i l l b e t h e S E TA ? Ye s . Page 148 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , s o t h e y m a k e i t l o o k l i k e y o u w o n ’ t pay? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , i t ’ s a z e r o s u m . CHAIRPERSON: J a y o u w o n ’ t p a y, j a , s o w h y n o t g i v e i t to us. M R D I N G I S WAY O : And we’ll also do recognition of prior learning for you. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 A n d l i k e I s a y, I t h i n k t h e r e ’ s a submission that I came across at the time that actually said – stated that, that is the reason why – the reason for the confinement, is the accreditation for – so, and then t h e r e ’ s a c o n t a c t t h a t i s c o n c l u d e d , C h a i r, w h i c h i s a partnership agreement which starts on page 141 and runs to 152. ADV SONI SC: And that’s MMD4. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: That is MMD4, yes. What’s the essence of the agreement, in other words, what obligations were there on Prodigy and 20 what obligations were there on PRASA? M R D I N G I S WAY O : of PRASA was supposed to provide 300 its employees for training by Prodigy at a cost of R 1 0 . 8 m i l l i o n . Yo u w i l l s e e , C h a i r, o n p a g e 1 4 1 t h e r e ’ s – a t the bottom there are two bullet points and the one talks about the provision of grant funding valued at that for 300 Page 149 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 learnership which Prodigy has secured from the Services S E TA a n d t h e P R A S A a p p o i n t s – I ’ m n o t s u r e w h a t a c t u a l l y happened at this point, I’m just looking at the documents as they come to me but the impression that I form is that this was the intention, this is what had been done. So, Prodigy – how Prodigy puts the foot in the door is by saying, I have this grant and I am accredited, therefore let’s do a contract. A contract is then prepared and signed and I take it their service is delivered but that’s for 300 10 learners. ADV SONI SC: And at a cost of? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Of R10.8million, but this is not the contract that was the subject of my instructions, let me see, I think instructions the contract is the that next was the contract subject of which my is MMD5…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: So just for the sake of completeness that contract – partnership agreement that you were – we were l o o k i n g a t j u s t n o w, n a m e l y M M D 4 a t p a g e 1 4 1 w a s s i g n e d 20 b y, i t w o u l d a p p e a r, M r M o n t a n a a s C E O o n b e h a l f o f PRASA. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. And then there is a witness there and the designation for the witness appears to be GE – office of GCEO. Page 150 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that signature, whose signature is that? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t l o o k s l i k e M r H o l e l e ’ s s i g n a t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay and you would – at that time…[intervenes]. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: He was the…[intervenes]. Occupied that position? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 Ye s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, y e s y o u s a y t h e n t h e c o n t r a c t that you were dealing with is not this one? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Because what was sought was – this one had lapsed? M R D I N G I S WAY O : This one had run its course and it seems it was executed and discharged and the parties’ obligations were discharged. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t w a s i t n o t t h e o n e t h a t w a s sought to be extended or something? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a i r. It was not, oh this was the initial one? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y, a l r i g h t . M R D I N G I S WAY O : So, this is what is giving me the background. Page 151 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o , I – I ’ m s o r r y C h a i r, I t h i n k I ’ m – I was not correct, it’s not MMD5 that was the subject of my instructions it is MMD6. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay and MMD6 appears at …[intervenes] M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: At page 170. 170 yes h’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 CHAIRPERSON: And runs to 177. Ye s , i f w e a r e g o i n g t o t a l k a b o u t M M D 6 , it – would it not be more logical to talk first about MMD5 unless there’s nothing to talk about on MMD5? M R D I N G I S WAY O : We can – well it’s just for background purposes Chair because…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: That too, had run its course? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: MMD5…[intervenes]. It’s at page 154. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , I ’ m j u s t t r y i n g t o . . . ADV SONI SC: 20 Isn’t this the addendum to the original contract? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , n o w M M D 5 i s – I t h i n k , a n interesting document, if you’re on page 156 there is – at the bottom there are paragraphs that are numbered 1 to 3. CHAIRPERSON: MR H’m, h’m. D I N G I S WAY O : Now you’ll Page 152 of 224 see number 1 is 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 implementation of PRASA Customer Service – PRASA My s t a t i o n , f r o n t l i n e w o r k e r, p r o g r a m m e , 3 0 0 0 e m p l o y e e s , 5 days of training and 5 days of workplace mentorship and coaching. MMD4 and Now the way this looks, MMD5 departs from introduces a new service, the training on Customer Services and then the second one is another training on all Customer Services of 6000 employees and then continual professional development of training for station and corridor management. 10 So those are the things that PRASA and Prodigy are going to have a relationship on. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR D I N G I S WAY O : So, the one that is against the paragraph marked number 1 at the bottom becomes MMD6, the training of the 3000. CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: H’m, h’m. And you will see that it’s on page 170. Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 Yo u w i l l s e e t h a t i t c a l l s t h i s t h e f i r s t phase under paragraph 2, the second numbered paragraph it says, “The first phase of the three phase partnership agreement is for a minimum of 3000 PRASA e m p l o y e e s c o m m e n c i n g 1 s t S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 a n d t o be completed by 31st March 2014”. Page 153 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 And if you go further and you will come to page 175 and there’s a table that’s there on page 175 under the heading, “invoicing schedule, phase one of three, PRASA my station programme” and the next page which is 176 you’ll see the total cost and under the heading, “number of learners” is 3 0 0 0 a n d t h e t o t a l c o s t i n c l u d i n g VAT i s R 8 2 0 8 0 0 0 0 . CHAIRPERSON: Now for which year or what was the duration for this one? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 T h e d u r a t i o n , C h a i r, i s w h e r e w e started it is…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : 2013…[intervenes]. On page 171 the second un-numbered paragraph under heading, “number 2”, the second line of t h a t i s 1 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 t o 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : So, is that four years or three years? It’s just over three years, I think it’s about three and a half years. CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 CHAIRPERSON: M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. I think so. Now is this…[intervenes]. No two and a half. Tw o a n d a h a l f ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : A p o l o g i e s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, is this still provision of training to make PRASA employees to enable them to provide good Page 154 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 service? M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o C h a i r, w e ’ v e m o v e d n o w f r o m w h a t seems to have been recognition of prior learning, which is the 3000 the zero sum game of the – I’ve got a grant, give me people to train and you claim back from that grant and – which is the reason why we have the relationship with P r o d i g y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a t ’ s w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d , I want to see where we start to have something different, 10 remember you started with the original. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . T h e l e t t e r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And then you came with the original agreement, the partnership agreement. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Which was talking about the S E TA m o n e y. 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , w h i c h w a s b a s e d o n t h e S E TA m o n e y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Then there was another agreement which, I think, we didn’t talk much about then there was another one. So I want to find out whether we are still – Page 155 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t h e b a s i s f o r a l l t h i s i s s t i l l t h e S E TA m o n e y o r i f i t i s n o l o n g e r t h e S E TA m o n e y t h i s i s t h e f i r s t t i m e w e a r e n o l o n g e r d e a l i n g w i t h t h e S E TA m o n e y o r w h e t h e r a n y o f t h e previous agreements were already no longer based on the S E TA m o n e y, t h a t ’ s w h a t I w a n t t o e s t a b l i s h . M R D I N G I S WAY O : So, the previous one – it seems to me, C h a i r, t h e p r e v i o u s o n e i s s o r t o f a n u m b r e l l a a n d i t – w e l l it serves two purposes…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: 10 The partnership one. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t d e p a r t s f r o m S E TA a n d s t a r t s a n e w relationship, altogether…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: That is MMD4 – MMD5…[intervenes]. M R D I N G I S WAY O : M M D 4 – 5 s o r r y, t h e o n e t h a t i s c a l l e d addendum to partnership agreement. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : So that one…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: That’s where the departure from the S E TA s t a r t s ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 CHAIRPERSON: MR Ye s . O k a y. D I N G I S WAY O : customer services That training one for starts – first now introducing phase is 3000 employees; second phase is 6000 employees and the – then continual professional development. There’s no – it doesn’t talk about money or anything and programmes and Page 156 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 things like this. CHAIRPERSON: MR Ja. D I N G I S WAY O : Where we start talking about…[intervenes]. ADV SONI SC: Sorry before you go there, I’m just trying to see if there is a relationship between – we have the partnership agreement as MMD4. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: 10 Ye s . Then we have MMD5 and if you look at page 154, what is this document called? M R D I N G I S WAY O : It’s called an addendum to partnership a g r e e m e n t C h a i r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : But that is a misnomer it has – in my view it has absolutely nothing to do. CHAIRPERSON: In terms of the content. M R D I N G I S WAY O : In terms of the content with what was envisaged in the partnership agreement. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u t h i n k t h e – t h e h e a d i n g o r t i t l e i s there to mislead or maybe not intentionally? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o C h a i r I t h i n k i t i s i n t e n t i o n a l . I t h i n k – e a r l i e r I s a i d t h e f i r s t o n e w a s – w a s t h e f o o t i n t h e d o o r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o w w h e n n o w t h e d o o r i s o p e n . CHAIRPERSON: We can get you to do other things. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S e e m s – a n y t h i n g i s p o s s i b l e . Page 157 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Ja but on the face of it might be – it must look like we are still continuing. M R D I N G I S WAY O : L i k e i t i s a c o n t i n u a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Partnership. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: So if this was a new agreement the first agreement was a confine – was based on confinement. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . 10 ADV SONI SC: If this was a new agreement you would have to follow Section 217. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: But this is now as the Chairperson has p o i n t e d o u t s i m p l y t i t l e d A d d e n d u m b u t i n e ff e c t h a s n o t h i n g to do with the previous agreement. M R D I N G I S WAY O : That is correct Chair it has nothing to do with the previous agreement. It has nothing to do with the rationale for the previous agreement and it does not – it has nothing to do with the services contemplated in the 20 previous agreement. of an umbrella But I am saying – I am calling it sort because it now starts a new thing customer services. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r p e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: Can I then ask you if you look at MMD6. Page 158 of 224 of 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: Page 170. What is that document called? M R D I N G I S WAY O : It is called an Annexure. It is – no it is called Annexure A2 of Addendum to Partnership Agreement. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . And when is that agreement entered into? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: If you look at page 177 you will see it. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 Ye s . It is dated 21 October 2012 it is signed by Mr Montana on that date. ADV SONI SC: So the annexure to the agreement – n sorry and if I can ask you could look at page 168 that is the date on which the previous agreement, the addendum was entered into. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: What is that date? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t i s 3 0 A u g u s t 2 0 11 . ADV SONI SC: So the annexure is entered into more than a year later? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: context or a So that just puts those agreements in purported relationship between those agreements in context? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . Chair the – this – one of the things that is striking about MMD6 is on page 175 under the Page 159 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 heading No 4 Learner Cost of PRASA My Station Program. The first unnumbered per learner cost of the program is R24 000. CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry did you say page 175? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 1 7 5 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a t i s – o h t h e L e a r n e r C o s t o f t h e PRASA My Station Program? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y. The My Station Program was that something that was started by PRASA or did they come up with it as part of what – of giving a name to what they wanted to do? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s C h a i r t h e y j u s t g a v e a n a m e . CHAIRPERSON: They came up with it. M R D I N G I S WAY O : W h o ? CHAIRPERSON: Prodigy? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Prodigy – I do not know who came up w i t h t h e n a m e C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y, o k a y. 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : B u t i t w a s j u s t c a l l e d M y S t a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V S O N I S C : Yo u s a y t h e p e r l e a r n e r c o s t w a s R 2 4 0 0 0 . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . ADV SONI SC: T h a t m e a n s f o r e a c h l e a r n e r. What did the – in terms of days and so on what did the – the program Page 160 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 entail? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I am not sure if it is here on MMD6 but you will recall that it is a five-day course. on MMD5. I think we saw it It is a five-day course and – and five days of workplace mentorship and coaching. Now in response to Counsel’s question Chair may I ask you to go to page 172 and there is a table there and you will see on the – I think it is the – what is it? Is it the fourth column which says: Develop Customised PRASA My Station Skills. 10 And it will speak – it talks about transport NQF1 and professional driver NQF3 and transport passenger services NQF3. Now this is an according to your qualifications standards that are i s s u e d b y t h e q u a l i f i c a t i o n ’ s a u t h o r i t y. And I am drawing your attention to this because as far as I know NQF4 is matric. The reason I am – I was drawing your attention to that price is that you are here with a course on customer services which is pitched at a level that is less than a m a t r i c f o r f i v e d a y s a n d i t i s R 2 4 0 0 0 . 0 0 p e r l e a r n e r. I t h i n k it is the most expensive customer services training in the 20 world. But Chair so what then causes concern for me as I look at this transaction is that which the Chair has noted simply starting the relationship on one basis and coming up with a confinement because that is a deviation from the normal process and then simply introducing another process mid-stream – sorry another service mid-stream which is not Page 161 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 related to why you confined in the first place. So I then r a i s e d t h i s a s a c o n c e r n t o t h e c o l l e a g u e t o s a y, t h i s i s irregular because I think there is so many people who can do customer services training. about customer expensive. services There is nothing unique training and I think it is too I mean I think the prices are much, much less than – especially for just five days. But I did not – I did not want to get into that. I said to the colleagues I think this is irregular and I would prefer not to be involved in it. I wrote 10 there an email to Mr Montana to say I think that he may have been misled to enter into – for this agreement to be concluded. Sorry I wrote that letter – that email to the then C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff i c e r a M r J o s e p h P h a n g u l a t o s a y I think that the Group CEO was misled because the relationship starts as one thing and then it just out of n o w h e r e m o r p h s i n t o a n o t h e r. I was not supposed to do that. An – Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Did you get a response in writing? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 From the – so the – if I remember well t h e G r o u p C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff i c e r s a i d h e w i l l b r i n g t h i s to the attention of Mr Montana. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t – s o s h e s e n t m e a s h o r t r e s p o n s e that just says something along those lines. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 162 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : So after some time and I think at some point I think I did not put my foot down at that point. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : B u t a f t e r s o m e t i m e , I s a i d g u y s t h i s i s – I am not going to be involved in this because it is irregular so please do not bring this thing here. I have told you it is irregular and you insist that I should do this. I am not – I am not going to do something of this nature. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : And then there was an email that was t h e n c o m i n g f r o m M r M o n t a n a – a p o l o g i e s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t h o u g h t y o u w a n t e d t o s a y s o m e t h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o a n e m a i l c a m e f r o m M r M o n t a n a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I d o n o t k n o w i f i t i s h e r e . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s i t i s a t p a g e 1 8 7 . M R D I N G I S WAY O : 1 ? 20 ADV SONI SC: 187. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 1 8 7 . ADV SONI SC: It is in MD – MMD8. M R D I N G I S WAY O : O k a y. Ye s s o t h a t i s – t h a t i s t h e e m a i l that was…. CHAIRPERSON: We d o n o t h a v e t h e o n e t h a t y o u s e n t t o Page 163 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t h e G r o u p C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff i c e r b e c a u s e i f w e d o – o h no it is not we do not have it here. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Yo u k n o w – n o C h a i r I d o n o t h a v e i t here. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o . CHAIRPERSON: But it can be found? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t c a n b e f o u n d C h a i r. I had requested the investigators to request that I be given access. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e p r e m i s e s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : To m y l a p t o p a n d m y o ff i c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : A n d I d o n o t t h i n k a n y t h i n g c a m e o u t o f that. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I think it should be – attempts should be made to find it and – and I think nobody is going to resist if we ask that he be allowed to have his laptop in order to assist the commission. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ye s s o – s o b u t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g u s now to the one at page 187? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : It is an email that is from Mr Montana. It is addressed to Ms Nonhlanhla Kondowe, Fani Dingiswayo Page 164 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 and Sidney Khuzwayo and then it is other people are copied there including my manager Mathongene. CHAIRPERSON: Who was or is Nonhlanhla Kondowe? What position was she holding? MR D I N G I S WAY O : Nonhlanhla Kondowe is in the HR department. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : She – she was the person who was really running with this project. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR D I N G I S WAY O : And I remember in one of my discussions with her I said but the end user is supposed to be rail – the rail division no HR. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : W h y a m I t a l k i n g t o y o u ? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : problems that Because I said to her I think one of the cost the situation where you finding yourselves in is that the end user is not the one needing the 20 discussions and telling you I can make so many frontline s t u ff a v a i l a b l e a t s u c h a t i m e s o t h a t y o u h a v e a p r o p e r schedule of the train. But she was what I would consider the champion of this project. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. O k a y. ADV SONI SC: In essence what does that email say Mr Page 165 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Dingiswayo? M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h e e s s e n c e o f t h e e m a i l C h a i r i s t h e … CHAIRPERSON: We l l I t h i n k I k n o w i t h a s b e e n r e a d i n t o the record but I think we may as well have it read again because it is quite important. Just read that email from Mr Lucky Montana to Ms Nonhlanhla Kondowe and others. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t r e a d s C h a i r. 10 “Dear Nonhlanhla there is nothing wrong with the appointment of Prodigy nor with the extension of their contracts. I am not surprised I think that is what it is supposed to say I am not surprised because this is part of a much bigger agenda which has targeted certain contracts.” CHAIRPERSON: Just hang on before you proceed. When he says this – I am not surprised because this is part of a much bigger agenda. What do you understand this to refer to? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I – C h a i r I h a v e – I d o n o t k n o w. I t h i n k 20 after in November – in December and January December 2014 and January 2015. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : M r M o n t a n a w a s o n l e a v e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : W h e n h e c a m e b a c k f r o m l e a v e . Page 166 of 224 – in 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : He had a lot of what I think was some paranoia and some – he was unsettled. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : H e f e l t – h e f e l t e x t r e m e l y u n s e t t l e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR D I N G I S WAY O : Because before this there was a meeting of what is called the extended exco. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : And I mean I do not – because of my – because I am a junior employee I do not go to those meetings. But an extended exco I was invited. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : In that meeting there was this long about two-hour complaint by Mr Montana complaining about people who have got agendas and that he is going to expose them and w h a t e v e r. So I was really shocked because I have – I have never been in a meeting where like you have – you discuss the business of the meeting and at 20 some point the person chairing the meeting has just a very long speech that he is – he is talking and everyone is quiet and he is really saying – talking about this agenda that is – that has been launched. He is talking about people that are trying to get the favour of the board at his expense because they are probably after his job or something like that. Page 167 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : It was a very – it was a very strange thing to me I mean I – like I am saying I have never been in that kind of a situation where – I thought maybe somebody will say can you… CHAIRPERSON: Will stop him. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Can you tell us what you are talking about because everything was couched in very general terms. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Because I certainly felt I would want him to stop or I – or be specific. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o w i f t h e r e i s s o m e b o d y i n t h e r o o m . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : That he is addressing then they must have a separate meeting. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 But it – we cannot all be detained here you know and be listening to this that – at the time I thought had absolutely nothing to do with me. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : But I realised like from that time on up until he left. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 168 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e r e p e a t e d o v e r a n d over again. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR D I N G I S WAY O : Against employees of PRASA and against the board. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Okay continue. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o – s o … CHAIRPERSON: …[intervenes] M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 …[intervenes] was a big agenda which has targeted certain contracts and appointments and to p r o j e c t – a n d t o p r o j e c t t h e s e a s b e i n g i r r e g u l a r. Some of the contracts had already been leaked to external auditors and the media as part of a strategy to discredit the Group CEO and create a cloud before he steps down at the end of t h e y e a r. A n d t h e n t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h s a y s : “This is a well-co-ordinated strategy that started in November 2014 when I went on leave. I was at the most appropriate time – I will at the most appropriate time act against all those who are involved in this dirty campaign. 20 The investigation they are starting is unlawful and part of a plot I am well aware of. The extent of opportunism by some of our managers really amazes me. A manager like Sidney Khuzwayo should start first by cleaning the many irregular appointments he has party to within SCM which I have been trying to address and even explaining some of these to the Page 169 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 o ff i c e o f t h e P u b l i c P r o t e c t o r. Some of the managers are excited by the new board and are feeding all sorts of wrong information so that they could carry: I think he wanted to say: “Carry favour with the board. They will be the biggest losers at the end of this process. A decision to partner with Prodigy on the training of customer services remains sound a n d t h e e x t e n s i o n o f t h e c o n t r a c t i s s t i l l i n o r d e r. Please allow them to continue with their strategy which is bound to 10 fail.” Then he says: “Kind Regards. Lucky Montana.” CHAIRPERSON: What was your understanding of what made Mr Montana write this letter? context of what was Having read it in the happening what was your understanding of why he wrote this letter? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Chair I – I thought that the colleagues that I was dealing with who in the Prodigy matter it – I thought they were reporting back to him. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : To s a y t h i s i s t h e – t h e s e a r e t h e v i e w s that are held by this man and now I think that at this time they had told him that now he has said please leave me out o f t h i s m a t t e r. And I think at the time I also said it should not come to the legal department. If – because I mean Mr Page 170 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M o n t a n a h a s h i s o w n l a w y e r i n h i s o ff i c e w h o c a n – w h o c a n do this work. But I am very uncomfortable with – with h a v i n g m y n a m e a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h i s i r r e g u l a r i t y. S o I t h i n k that he – there had been – there had been reports that had been sent to him. I think that – I think the reference to Mr Sidney Khuzwayo was a deflection. I think that the entire thing was addressed to me that is how I understood it. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u said earlier on that this was a meeting of the extended executives, is that right? 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And which you would normally – well you would not normally attend meetings of the executive committee. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But you had been invited to this one. M R D I N G I S WAY O : B e c a u s e i t w a s a n e x t e n d e d e x c o . CHAIRPERSON: Because it – ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 It was an extended exco. We r e t h e r e others who were invited to – or in other words were you the only one who made it to be an extended exco or were there others who – who were there who also contributed to making it an external exco? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ja. No I wish I was the only one who made that cut Chair but no I was not. Page 171 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t o k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . T h e p e o p l e a t m y l e v e l CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Of General Manager are invited for extended exco’s. CHAIRPERSON: For external exco’s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : F o r e x t e n d e d e x c o ’ s y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. O k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 But I am saying that this whole thing about Sidney is just a deflection. CHAIRPERSON: It is a deflection ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : B e c a u s e I s a i d e a r l i e r t h a t I a m a j u n i o r employee. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S i d n e y ’ s p o s i t i o n i s j u n i o r t o m i n e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : A n d h e w o u l d n o t b e d e a l i n g w i t h – o n l y – he would not be involved in irregular appointments. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : As someone else was – who is higher t h a n S i d n e y w o u l d h a v e t o s i g n o ff . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : O n a n y a p p o i n t m e n t s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : So I – I just thought this – this is just Page 172 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 something that has been put there to – to hide the fact that this entire thing is a response. CHAIRPERSON: But quite clearly – quite clearly this was a – Mr Montana’s response to the stance taken by some which i n c l u d e d y o u t h a t t h e P r o d i g y c o n t r a c t w a s i r r e g u l a r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : H m . CHAIRPERSON: Is that right? M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Is that reading of this correct? 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t a t t h a t s t a g e a p a r t f r o m y o u w h o else had made it known that they also thought that this Prodigy contract was irregular? M R D I N G I S WAY O : W e l l i n w r i t i n g I w a s t h e o n l y o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e t h e o n l y o n e ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . I had – I had discussed it with – with Ms Martha Ngoye. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 Especially even at the time when I thought I am not engaging in this anymore. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I a m g e t t i n g o u t o f i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : To s a y t o h i m – t o s a y t o h e r t h i s i s t h e stance that I have taken. Page 173 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : A n d I a m n o t g o i n g t o d o t h i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : S h e a g r e e d w i t h … CHAIRPERSON: She agreed with you. M R D I N G I S WAY O : With me and I think I even – because we have – we have monthly – at the time we had monthly meetings. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : A s a d e p a r t m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I think I may have tabled the issue at the departmental meeting. Because I had – I had given – I had made a number of enquiries to try and see if there is nothing wrong with this. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : So this – I thought no, no this – that is f i n e n o f u r t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Hm. Now how – how long before the 18 May 2015 which is a date of this letter had you written to say you – this contract was irregular and I think you had w r i t t e n t h e G r o u p C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff i c e r ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: How long before that – that date more or less? Page 174 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : A t m o s t a w e e k C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so it was close? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t w a s a v e r y t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja a very short time. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ve r y s h o r t t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. And he of course had told you that he would convey to Mr Montana your stance. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w d i d y o u g e t t o k n o w w h e t h e r M s 10 Kondowe and Nonhlanhla was the letter the salutation is Dear Nonhlanhla? M R D I N G I S WAY O : H m . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u k n o w i t i s n o t D e a r M r D i n g i s w a y o . M R D I N G I S WAY O : H m . CHAIRPERSON: It is Dear Nonhlanhla did you get to know whether Ms Kondowe had written anything to Mr Montana about the Prodigy contract to which prompted Mr Montana to write to her? maybe which had Or is that something you never got to know? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o I n e v e r g o t t o k n o w C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Did you know whether Ms Kondowe was agreeing with your position on this contract or not at that time? M R D I N G I S WAY O : No she – she never agreed with my position. Page 175 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: She did not agree with your position? M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o . CHAIRPERSON: She – but she – did she – was she against it? D i d s h e a r t i c u l a t e a d i ff e r e n t p o s i t i o n o r s h e n e v e r s a i d anything? M R D I N G I S WAY O : No Chair I mean she – she never engaged with me about my position. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 But I mean having checked also her conduct after all these things when she was working very hard to – to try and make sure that Prodigy is paid. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t s h e – s h e a g r e e d w i t h my – she never expressed her disagreement. CHAIRPERSON: She never articulated. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Any position. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 She might just have carried out instructions. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t h i n k – I t h i n k t h a t i f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n at best Chair what she may have said is that look I mean Prodigy would not know our processes. Page 176 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Sort of it is a – is an innocent party to this thing and now they are in this situation we have put them in that situation. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k yo u . ADV SONI SC: Now this letter from... I mean, this email f ro m M r M o n t a n a i s d a t e d t h e 1 8 t h o f Ma y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : M a y. A D V S O N I S C : M a y. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: W h a t w a s t h e n e xt m a j o r i n ci d e n t t h a t happened after this letter was sent? M R D I N G I S WAY O : O n t h e 1 9 t h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV SONI SC: Of the following day? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : O n t h e 1 9 t h o f M a y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e a ct u a l l y b e f o r e w e d o t h a t . w e a r e a t o n e m i n u t e p a st f o u r. 20 I se e I am quite happy that we c o n t i n u e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: ...up to five to try and finish. If we... if t h a t s u i t s e v e r y b o d y. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Ye s, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: But if we are going onto to five, maybe we Page 177 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 s h o u l d t a k e a sh o rt b r e a k. M r D i n g i s w a yo , yo u a r e h a p p y with continuing. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I a m o k a y C h a i r. I a m o n s u s p e n si o n . CHAIRPERSON: O ka y. M r S o n i , [ l a u g h s] o h y o u a r e o n s u s p e n si o n ? Yo u h a ve g o t a l l t h e t i m e . [ l a u g h s] A D V S O N I S C : We e n j o y t h e i n t e r a ct i o n . [ l a u g h s] CHAIRPERSON: [ l a u g h ] O k a y. A l ri g h t . L e t u s t a ke a s h o rt b r e a k a n d w e w i l l c o m e b a c k a t t e n p a st . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Ye s, C h a i r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : We a d j o u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S: I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S : C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st t o g o b a c k t o t h e l e t t e r M M D H a t p a g e 9 2 . S o M r D i n g i s w a y o , a s. . . w o u l d i t b e c o r r e ct t o sa y, a s f a r a s y o u k n o w, a t t h e t i m e o f t h i s m e e t i n g o f t h e e xt e n d e d e x e cu t i v e . . . N o , n o . I a m s o r ry. A t t h e t i m e o f t h i s l e t t e r, y o u w e r e t h e o n l y o n e a m o n g t h e e m p l o y e e s o f P R A S A w h o h a d t a k e n t h e p o si t i o n t h a t this 20 c o n t r a ct was irregular and that would have been c o n ve y e d t o M r M o n t a n a . A s f a r a s M r N g o y e i s c o n c e r n e d , s h e w a s a g re e i n g w i t h y o u b u t t h a t w a s a d i s cu s s i o n b e t w e e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t h e t w o o f yo u a t t h a t st a g e . M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r. Page 178 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e p r o b a b i l i t i e s a r e , y o u w o u l d s a y, a r e t h a t M r M o n t a n a k n e w o n l y yo u a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s s a yi n g t h i s w a s i rr e g u l a r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. I f t h e re o t h e r p e o p l e , w e c o u l d h e a r f ro m h i m . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: But you did not know of anyone else who h a d t a k e n t h a t s t yl e . . . t h a t st a n d a n d s a i d i t sh o u l d b e c o n ve y e d . . . i t ca n . . . i t co u l d b e co n v e y e d t o h i m . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, C h a i r. I can confirm that... I mean, I t h i n k s o m e o n e l i k e S y d n e y w a s t r yi n g t o s e e i f w e c a n f i n d a solution. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a , j a . M R D I N G I S WAY O : B u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u h a d t a ke n a cl e a r p o si t i o n ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V S O N I S C : [ I n d i st i n ct ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r m i c. Yo u r m i c. MR D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, the following Page 179 of 224 d a y, after I 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . CHAIRPERSON: Before you deal with that. How did this l e t t e r m a ke y o u f e e l ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I w a n t e d t o r e s p o n d t o t h e . . . t o t h i s e m a i l C h a i r. But I realised that I will be now on the... a real war path with the Group CEO. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o I h a d a d i s c u s si o n a b o u t i t w i t h m y b o s s b e c a u s e I m e a n , t h e . . . a l l t h e se t h i n g s w h a t h e i s s a yi n g a b o u t t h e s e g e n e ra l st a t e m e n t s a r e i n c o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : And I do not... Maybe there was an agenda. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I w a s n o t p a rt o f i t . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 B u t i t w a s cl e a r. A s. . . C h a i r, y o u h a v e n o t e d t h a t a c co r d i n g t o m y k n o w l e d g e a t t h e t i m e , I h a d b e e n t h e o n l y p e r s o n w h o h a d e x p r e s s e d t h i s vi e w. A n d t h i s vi e w i s n o w e m e r g e d i n t o w h a t i s c a l l a b i g g e r a g e n d a a b o u t p e o p l e w h o a re i n v e st i g a t i n g M r M o n t a n a u n l a w f u l l y. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. Page 180 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : A n d C h a i r, y o u . . . I t h i n k a t t h i s t i m e , i t w a s b e f o r e e v e n t h e We r k s m a n s’ i n v e st i g a t i o n st a rt e d . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o I . . . s o t h e r e i s a l o t o f st r a n g e t h i n g s t h a t a r e s a i d i n t h i s e m a i l w h i c h a r e a s s o ci a t e d w i t h t h i s vi e w w h i c h I f e l t I p r o b a b l y j u st n e e d t o s e t t h e r e co r d st ra i g h t a n d s a y, t h i s i s m y vi e w. It has nothing to do with all these things that are being mentioned here. 10 It is something that I believe is legally s o u n d a n d i t i s a n i n d e p e n d e n t vi e w, a p r o f e s si o n a l vi e w. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : B u t C h a i r, i n s o m e o f t h e s e i n st i t u t i o n s y o u ca n n o t t e l l a p r o f e s si o n a l v i e w w h i c h i s s o u n d , i f i t i n t e rf e re s w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e ’s p e r s o n a l i n t e r e st , t h e n y o u g e t dealt with. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : A n d t h e n o rm a l t h i n g i s t h a t t h e y c o n f u s e t h e i r o w n p e r s o n a l i n t e r e st s w i t h P R A S A’s i n t e re st b e ca u s e t h e y w i l l a l w a y s u s e t h a t cl o a k o f s a yi n g , y o u a r e a ct i n g 20 a g a i n st P R A S A w h e n , i n f a ct , y o u m a y b e b e d e a l i n g w i t h h i s o w n p e r s o n a l i n t e re st s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. And when he says in the end of the third paragraph: “ T h e y w o u l d b e t h e b i g g e st l o s e r s a t t h e e n d o f t h i s p ro c e s s”. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. Page 181 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o d i d y o u t h i n k h e w a s t a l ki n g a b o u t ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t h o u g h t h e w a s t a l ki n g a b o u t m e . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : And that is why I thought I needed to i s o l a t e t h e p r o f e s si o n a l vi e w f r o m a l l t h i s. All this paranoia a n d s a y, I h a v e n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h . . . I d o n o t h a v e . . . I d o n o t h a ve the time or the i n cl i n a t i o n for a g en d a s and o p p o rt u n i sm . I a m j u st w o r ki n g h e r e . A n d t h i s i s j u st a vi e w t h a t I a m 10 e x p r e s si n g . d r a st i c. S o I b e l i e ve d t h a t h e i n t e n d e d t o d o so m e t h i n g And that is why I thought it would be necessary to re s p o n d t o t h e e m a i l . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : B u t i n m y d i s c u s si o n w i t h M s N g o y e , w e agreed that we do not escalate. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR D I N G I S WAY O : Let us d e -e s c a l a t e the situation. M a y b e . . . a n d h o p e f o r t h e b e st . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. 20 ADV SONI SC: What though happened on the following day? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I was on my way home in the evening f ro m w o r k. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s n o w o n t h e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : O n t h e 1 9 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . o n 1 9 t h o f . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 182 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : O f M a y. CHAIRPERSON: Of May 2015. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 2 0 1 5 . CHAIRPERSON: 2015, ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. I am on my way home and when I a m a b o u t f i v e m i n u t e s a w a y f r o m h o m e , I re c e i v e d a c a l l f ro m P R A S A . I p i c k i t u p a n d i t i s M r M o n t a n a ’s p e r s o n a l a s si st a n t . I t h i n k i t w a s D e B e e r. I m e n t i o n e d h e r y e st e r d a y, Dumi. 10 S h e c a l l s a n d sa y s, “ M r M o n t a n a w o u l d l i k e t o se e y o u ”. I s a y, w h e n ? S h e s a y s, “ N o w ”. S o I a m l i k e : “I a m cl o s e t o h o m e . D o e s h e n e e d t o s e e m e t o d a y ? P l e a s e l e t h i m k n o w I a m cl o s e t o h o m e b u t i f h e n e e d s t o s e e m e t o d a y, I w i l l c o m e b a c k t o t h e o ff i ce ” . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : A t w h a t t i m e w a s t h i s, M r D i n g i s w a y o ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : M a y b e a r o u n d s e v e n . ADV SONI SC: In the evening? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 Ye s, s e v e n i n t h e e ve n i n g . So I get h o m e a n d a s I a m d ri vi n g i n t o m y d r i v e w a y, I g e t a n o t h e r ca l l f ro m t h e s a m e n u m b e r. I pick it up and she tells me, “No, n o , n o . H e w a n t s t o se e y o u n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w a s st i l l h i s PA ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 183 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o I t h e n s a y, o k a y. Now the people i n si d e t h e h o u se h a ve s e e n I a m d r i vi n g . So I have to go a n d s a y, “I h a ve b e e n c a l l e d b a c k t o w o r k ”. And like... and e v e r y o n e i s l i k e : “A re y o u s e ri o u s ? ” So then I called... I am on my way back to work and I c a l l M s N g o y e a n d I s a y t o h e r, “I t h i n k I a m g o i n g t o b e f i re d ”. S o s h e sa y s, “ W h y ? ” I said I received this call and this i s w h a t h a p p e n e d . S h e s a y s, “ O k a y, j u st g o a n d l e t m e k n o w 10 w h a t h a p p e n s ”. I g e t t o t h e o ff i c e . He was finishing a meeting and w a l ki n g t h e p e o p l e t h a t h e w a s m e e t i n g w i t h o u t . And he t h e n s a y s. . . h e c o m e s b a c k, h e s a y s. . . h e g r e e t s a n d h e s a y s, “ C o m e i n ”. I g o i n t o h i s o ff i c e . A n d t h e n h e s a y s t h a t h e h a s h e a r d t h a t I a m w o r ki n g a g a i n st t h e i n t e r e st o f P R A S A . So I am t a k e n a b a c k, o k a y. H e st a rt s t a l ki n g a b o u t s o m e t e n d e r t h a t h e sa i d I w a s. . . h e s a i d I w a n t e d t o c a n c e l a t e n d e r. 20 wait. S o I sa y, “ O k a y, b u t I d o n o t h a v e t h e p o w e r t o c a n c e l a t e n d e r. Which t e n d e r a r e y o u t a l ki n g a b o u t ? ” Then he explains what he is talking about. no, no. I s a y, “ N o , We a r e a p p r o a c h e d b e c a u se t h e B E C i s h a vi n g s o m e p r o b l e m s w i t h t h i s t e n d e r a n d w e w e re a s k e d t o g i v e a d vi c e . We g a v e t h e a d vi c e . Page 184 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A n d t h e a d vi c e w a s n o t h i n g m e r e t o c a n c e l l a t i o n o f t h e t e n d e r. T h e re w a s j u st a b o t t l e n e c k. We g a ve a d vi c e t o e a se t h a t b o t t l e n e c k, so t h a t t h e w o r k o f t h e B E C c a n c o n t i n u e ”. H e s a y s, “ N o , I d o n o t w a n t t o h e a r a n yt h i n g f r o m y o u . I h a ve b e e n t o l d w h a t I h a v e b e e n t o l d ”. A n d t h e n h e g o e s a l l o v e r. . . h e t a l k s a b o u t a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s t h a t I a m a ct i n g a g a i n st h i m . I a m l e a ki n g d o c u m e n t s t o t h e b o a r d . N o w I a m re a l l y st u n t t h a t . . . h o w d o e s. . . h o w d o e s o n e 10 leak documents to the board? I m e a n , t h e d o cu m e n t s o f t h e c o m p a n y a r e d o c u m e n t s o f t h e c o m p a n y. The board is the a c c o u n t i n g a u t h o r i t y. A n d I a m t h i n ki n g , I a m so f a r f ro m t h e b o a r d . I do not e v e n k n o w w h o i s i n t h e b o a r d . I h a v e n e v e r i n t e r a ct e d w i t h t h e se p e o p l e . M y n o r m a l w o r k d o e s n o t b ri n g m e a n y w h e r e cl o s e t o t h e s e p e o p l e . B u t I ca n n o t s a y t h e se t h i n g s b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n t o l d that: “ N o , I d o n o t w a n t t o h e a r a n yt h i n g f r o m y o u ” . And t h e n h e s a y s, “A l l I b ro u g h t y o u h e re t o t e l l yo u i s t h a t y o u 20 n o l o n g e r w o r k h e re ”. S o I a m l i k e o k a y. A n d h e s a y s, “ We ca n t a l k a b o u t h o w m u c h I p a y y o u f o r y o u t o l e a v e y o u r e m p l o y m e n t ”. I sa i d , “ N o , I a m n o t i n t e r e st e d i n t h a t d i s c u s si o n . ” H e s a y s, “ O k a y. T h e n y o u d o n o t . . . y o u a r e f i r e d ”. I s a y o k a y. A n d . . . so I re a l i s e t h a t h e i s d o n e a n d I g e st u r e t o Page 185 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 st a n d f r o m m y s e a t . Then he s a y s, “Yo u can wait for your letter of t e r m i n a t i o n o r yo u c a n g e t i t t o m o r r o w o r y o u c a n t e l l u s w h e r e t o d e l i ve r i t ”. I t w a s n o t a l o n g m e e t i n g C h a i r. And I think he said I c o u l d w a i t b e c a u s e h i s l e g a l a d vi s o r w a s t h e r e p r e s e n t , M s Naidoo. I think she was the one who going to draft the t e r m i n a t i o n l e t t e r. S o I s a y, “ N o , n o . 10 I will come back tomorrow and get it. I w i l l c o m e a n d a l s o g e t m y p e r s o n a l b e l o n g i n g s f ro m t h e o ff i c e ”. A n d s o I l e f t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t i s n o t e v e n y o u a r e s u sp e n d e d ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e f i r e d ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o , I w a s f i r e d o n t h e s p o t . CHAIRPERSON: And he says he does not want to hear a n yt h i n g f ro m y o u ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. T h e o n l y t h i n g h e c a n e n g a g e o n i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 CHAIRPERSON: How much you want to be paid? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: But you are fired? M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : I n h i s w o r d s, h e s a y s, “Yo u n o l o n g e r Page 186 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 w o r k h e r e ”. CHAIRPERSON: That is how he put it. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u co m e i n w o r k i n g h e r e ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. [ l a u g h ] C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u g o o u t n o t w o r ki n g h e r e ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . [ l a u g h ] 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Now the tender that he was re f e rr i n g t o , a r e y o u a b l e t o r e m e m b e r w h a t i t w a s c o n n e ct e d with? M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, I d o n o t r e m e m b e r b u t w h a t I re m e m b e r i s t h a t , t h e y. . . y o u k n o w i n a si t u a t i o n o f a t e n d e r, t h e r e i s a p a rt w h e r e y o u d o t h e t e c h n i c a l e v a l u a t i o n ? CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : threshold before W h e r e y o u n e e d t o m e e t a c e rt a i n other a sp e ct s of the tender ca n be c o n si d e r e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o w t h e s p e ci f i c a t i o n w a s d ra f t e d i n s u c h a w a y t h a t y o u n e e d e d t o . . . t h a t t y p e o f c o l l a b o ra t i o n I t h i n k w a s d i vi d e d i n t o f o u r o r f i v e a s p e ct s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R D I N G I S WAY O : And they said you need to meet a Page 187 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 m i n i m u m , I t h i n k o f l i ke 8 0 % o n e a c h o f t h o s e a s p e ct s f o r y o u t o g e t t h e t y p i c a l . . . t h e t h r e sh o l d o f t h e t y p i c a l c ri t e ri a to... S o t h e y s a i d t o u s, t h e r e i s n o n e o f t h e t e n d e r e r s w h o g e t s a l l o f t h o s e f i v e a s p e ct s a t t h a t l e v e l a n d . . . a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s c o ri n g . A n d . . . b u t t h e t e c h n i c a l a d vi s o r s. . . b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s t e c h n i c a l a d vi so r s t h e r e . S i y a y a w a s w i t h t h e t e c h n i ca l a d vi s o r s o f t h a t t e n d e r. T h e y sa y t h a t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h a t t e n d e r c o m m i t t e d w i t h S i y a y a ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : S o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: Siyaya was one of the ...[intervenes] M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h e p r o f e s s i o n a l s t h a t a re a s si st i n g P R A S A t o d o t h e i r e v a l u a t i o n o f t h e t e n d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : s a yi n g they are S o t h e y s a i d . . . t h e t y p i ca l a d vi s o r s a r e s a t i sf i e d that some of the people ca n a ct u a l l y d o t h a t j o b b e c a u se t h e w h o l e p o i n t o f a t e c h n i c a l e v a l u a t i o n i s t o a s s e s s w h e t h e r t h e t e n d e r e r c a n a ct u a l l y d o 20 t h e w o r k. We s a i d t o t h e m , “ L o o k, y o u s e e m t o b e h a vi n g a p r o b l e m w i t h y o u t e c h n i c a l e v a l u a t i o n c ri t e ri a b e ca u s e i f y o u a r e s a t i sf i e d t h a t t h e y c a n d o t h e w o r k b u t y o u r e v a l u a t i o n c ri t e ri a s a y s t h e y c a n n o t , t h a t i s w h a t yo u n e e d t o d e a l w i t h b e ca u s e i t i s n o t a c h i e vi n g w h a t i t i s s u p p o s e d t o a c h i e v e ”. Page 188 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A n d t h e g u y s t h a t w e co n s u l t e d w i t h w e r e h a p p y a n d they left. A n d t h e n l a t e r o n , I w a s a c c u se d o f w a n t i n g t o c a n ce l t h a t t e n d e r. CHAIRPERSON: that s h o rt B u t d i d y o u a l s o s a y, h e a c c u se d y o u a t meeting of l e a ki n g so m e . . . l e a ki n g some d o cu m e n t s t o t h e m e d i a o r. . . ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : To t h e b o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e b o a r d ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, t o t h e b o a r d . 10 CHAIRPERSON: But was it to the board only or also to s o m e b o d y e l se ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : To t h e b o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e b o a r d ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w i n t h e l e t t e r o f 1 8 M a y, y o u d i d a l s o sp e a k a g a i n a b o u t p e o p l e w h o a r e l e a ki n g . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . d o c u m e n t s b u t h e sa i d t o t h e m e d i a . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, C h a i r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e xt e r n a l a u d i t o r s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, t h e e xt e r n a l a u d i t o r s. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, j a . O k a y. A l ri g h t . S o yo u l e f t . Yo u s a i d yo u w i l l co m e b a c k t h e f o l l o w i n g d a y t o t a k e y o u r l e t t e r. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, t o t a k e t h e l e t t e r a n d t a ke m y p e r s o n a l b e l o n g i n g s. Page 189 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V S O N I S C : N o w, a f t e r y o u l e f t M r M o n t a n a ’s o ff i c e , w h a t w a s t h e n e xt t h i n g y o u d i d ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : We l l , a s so o n a s I l e f t t h e b u i l d i n g C h a i r, I re p o rt e d b a c k t o m y b o s s a s I i n d i c a t e d t h a t I w o u l d c a l l her after the meeting and I told her that... I told her that I am going to be fired and I am fired. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I a m s u r e s h e c o u l d n o t . . . sh e t h o u g h t y o u . . . s h e c o u l d n o t b e l i e v e t h a t y o u . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o , s h e t h o u g h t I a m j o ki n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : f i re d ”. A n d I sa i d , “ N o , I a m n o t j o ki n g . I am B u t I m e a n , I h a v e se e n i t co m i n g f r o m t h i s l e t t e r b e ca u s e t h a t “ b i g g e st l o s e r s”, I t h o u g h t i t i s a t h r e a t . It is a threat although, the threat was a raid by the name of Sivele Khuzo(?) but I did not see it. But I could see it. S o s h e s a i d . . . s h e d i d n o t b e l i e ve m e . S h e s a i d , “ L e t u s m e e t ”. A n d w e a rr a n g e d t o m e e t a n d I t o l d h e r t h i s i s w h a t h a p p e n e d . A n d s h e r e a l i s e d t h a t I a m n o t j o ki n g . 20 A n d s h e m a d e a c a l l t o M r M o n t a n a a n d a s ke d h i m , “ T h i s g u y. . . ”. I mean, she was shocked. She was shocked. And s h e m a d e t h e c a l l w h i l st s h o c k e d t h a t h o w d i d t h i s h a p p e n ? “ T h i s p e r s o n r e p o rt s t o m e . Yo u d o n o t t e l l m e w h a t y o u a r e d o i n g a n d y o u j u st f i r e d h i m . I m e a n , h o w d o e s t h a t w o r k? ” Page 190 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 A n d t h e n I d i d n o t h e a r e v e r yt h i n g t h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d . o n l y h e a r d w h a t M s N g o y e w a s s a yi n g . I A n d f ro m w h a t sh e w a s s a yi n g a n d o n c e s h e h a s t o l d m e , t h e y h a d a g re e d t o m e e t t h e n e xt d a y f o r h i m t o t a k e h e r t h ro u g h t h e re a s o n s w h y h e h a d m a d e t h i s v e r y d ra st i c d e ci si o n . CHAIRPERSON: N o w w h e n Mr M o n t a n a a s k e d y o u a b o u t t h a t t e n d e r w h i c h I t h i n k y o u s a i d h e s a i d h e u n d e r st o o d y o u wanted to cancel. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: D i d h e m a k e y o u . . . d i d h e re p r e s e n t t h a t y o u r d i s m i s s a l w a s b e ca u s e y o u w a n t e d t o c a n c e l t h a t tender? Wa s. . . d i d y o u u n d e r st a n d t h a t h e w a n t e d yo u t o b e l i e ve t h a t t h a t i s w h a t t h e d i sm i s s a l w a s a b o u t ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, C h a i r. So he... that is one of the things that he mentioned.. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : H e m e n t i o n e d t h e c a n ce l l a t i o n o f t h e t e n d e r, h e m e n t i o n e d w o r ki n g a g a i n st P R A S A . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : H e m e n t i o n e d l e a ki n g i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e board. CHAIRPERSON: wanted yo u Ye s. to So it... you are... he may have believe that it t h i n g s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. Page 191 of 224 was all of t h o se 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: That he mentioned. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. O k a y. And he did not mention a n yt h i n g t h a t w a s c o n n e ct e d w i t h t h e l e t t e r o r t h a t w a s i n t h e letter? M R D I N G I S WAY O : W i t h t h e e m a i l ? CHAIRPERSON: The email, ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, I r e a l l y d o n o t r e c a l l h i m s a yi n g a n yt h i n g a b o u t P r o d i g y. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, y e s. E x c e p t t h a t , I g u e s s, t h a t . . . i n t h a t e m a i l , t h e o n e a d d r e s se d t o , D e a r M a t l a n t l e . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I n t h a t e m a i l , h e i s s p e a k i n g st ro n g l y a g a i n st t h o s e w h o m h e w a s a c c u si n g o f w o r ki n g a g a i n st h i m . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o i t m a y n o t b e t h a t i f y o u a r e l e a ki n g d o cu m e n t s t o t h e b o a r d y o u m a y h a v e b e e n w o r ki n g a g a i n st h i m i f h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 If indeed you can leak documents to a b o a r d . Ye s, t h e n t h a t w e a re . CHAIRPERSON: [laugh] We l l , c e rt a i n l y f r o m h i s p o i n t o f vi e w. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, y e s. CHAIRPERSON: If you can, you are good. Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : J a . Page 192 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A l ri g h t . M s S o n i . ADV SONI SC: As it please you. N o w, M s N g o y e i s g i vi n g e vi d e n c e t h a t a f t e r t h a t m e e t i n g w h i c h w a s a b o u t a s s h o rt a s y o u r m e e t i n g w a s w i t h M r M o n t a n a . . . o h , s o r r y. A t t h e e n d o f that meeting, Mr Montana told her that you were fired or you n o l o n g e r. . . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : N o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, C h a i r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r ry, M r S o n i . Please do not forget y o u r n e xt q u e st i o n . ADV SONI SC: No, no. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u sa i d t h a t y o u . . . I a s k e d yo u e a rl i e r on about what... I think I believe I did you ask you. [laugh] I h o p e I d i d . A b o u t w h a t y o u b e l i e ve d w a s t h e re a s o n w h y M r Montana dismissed you that evening. What, on your a n a l y si s, i s t h e re a s o n w h y y o u w e r e d i sm i s s e d ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : A c c o r d i n g t o m e C h a i r, I g a v e a vi e w t h a t i s l e g a l l y so u n d a n d t h a t w a s a g a i n st h i s p e r so n a l i n t e r e st . 20 H e a p p e a re d o v e r l y i n v e st e d i n t h i s re l a t i o n s h i p . I mean, it is a... in the greater scheme of PRASA, this is a v e r y sm a l l c o n t r a ct , e s p e ci a l l y t a k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t t h a t t w o t h i r d s o f t h a t c o n t ra ct h a d b e e n i m p l e m e n t e d a l r e a d y. I t i s a m i n i s cu l e c o n t r a ct . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. Page 193 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : P R A S A b u r n s. . . w e l l , i t i s su p p o s e d t o b u r n m o r e t h a n R 2 0 b i l l i o n a y e a r. N o w w h e n w e a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t a c o n t r a ct o f R 8 2 m i l l i o n , w h i c h i s t w o t h i r d s . . . h a s n o t d i s c h a rg e d t w o t h i r d s o f t h e w a y a n d y o u h a v e t h i s v e r y b i z a r r e r e s p o n s e t o a l e g a l l y so u n d vi e w, t h e n i t sh o w s t h a t e xt e n d o f y o u r i n v e st m e n t , yo u r p e r s o n a l i n v e st m e n t i n t h e c o n t r a ct . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. So you believe that he d i s m i s se d y o u b e c a u se o f t h e p o s i t i o n y o u h a d t a k e n w i t h 10 re g a r d t o t h e P r o d i g y c o n t r a ct ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, C h a i r. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : We l l , C h a i r. L e t m e p u t i t t h i s w a y. T h i s. . . i t i s s o m e . . . t h i s o n e i s t h e c r e s c e n d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R D I N G I S WAY O : There are things that happen. I mean, f o r a n e x a m p l e , t h e r e i s a v e r y. . . t h e r e i s a st o r y t h a t i s n o t told about the fact that at some point there is an intention to i n c re a s e 20 the value of the Swifambo co n t r a c t from R 3,5 billion to R 5 billion. And we were asked to do that addendum. And we said, “ We l l , n o . Yo u g u y s a re t o o f a r o ff w i t h t h i s t h i n g . It is an a d d e n d u m ”. I . . . b e c a u s e w e q u e ri e d a c o u p l e o f t h i n g s a n d i t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e b u t . . . b e ca u s e t h e r a t i o n a l t h a t w a s st a t e d f o r Page 194 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 t h e i n cr e a s e i n t h e c o n t r a ct p r i ce w a s t h a t t h e E u r o h a d m o v e d a g a i n st t h e R a n d a n d b e c a u s e o f t h a t t h e c o n t r a ct v a l u e m u st i n c r e a s e s o t h a t w e s t i l l g e t t h e y st i l l g e t t h i s t h i n g o f c o m m i t t e e s. N o w, I m e a n e v e n t o m e w h o i s a l a w y e r w h o d o e s n o t k n o w n u m b e r s, a n i n cr e a s e f r o m R 3 , 5 b i l l i o n t o R 5 b i l l i o n , i t i s a l m o st 3 3 % . I d o n o t t h i n k t h e E u r o c o u l d h a v e i n cr e a s e so much. S o t h a t i s o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t . . . y o u co u l d s e e t h e 10 l e v e l o f i r ri t a t i o n g r o w i n g a s yo u a r e s a yi n g , “P l e a se , d o n o t i n cl u d e m e i n t h i s . I f yo u w a n t t o g o a h e a d w i t h i t , y o u g o ahead with it but...” A n d w e sa i d , “ We w e re a p p r o a ch e d b y M s M a l o n g e t e . H e s a i d , “Yo u k n o w t h i s t h i n g b e t t e r t h a n a l l o f u s. We h a v e f u n d a m e n t a l p r o b l e m s w i t h t h i s co n t r a ct b u t . . . so y o u d r a f t a n d t h e n w e d o n o t w a n t t o g o b a c k t o t h o s e p ro b l e m s. So j u st f i n i sh t h e a d d e n d u m . She had... she actually had a draft of that addendum but s h e w a n t e d u s t o b e . . . t o h a ve a n i n p u t t o i t . A n d h e s a i d , 20 “P l e a s e , d o n o t g e t u s i n v o l v e d i n t h i s ”. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u s a y, y o u w e re f i r e d , a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d , f o r t h i s p o si t i o n yo u t o o k w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e P r o d i g y c o n t ra ct ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t yo u s a y t h a t h a p p e n e d a s c u l m i n a t i o n Page 195 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 of a number of things that had happened before what you h a ve j u st s a i d . M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e o f w h i c h w a s t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R D I N G I S WAY O : A t t e m p t s. CHAIRPERSON: A t t e m p t s. Yo u s t a n d . Not to want to be i n v o l v e d i n i n t e r e s t i n t h e S w i f a m b o c o n t r a ct . M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s, t h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 ADV SONI SC: N o w, I p e r h a p s s h o u l d h a ve a s k e d e a rl i e r. Ve r y e a rl y i n y o u r e vi d e n c e , y o u t a l k e d a b o u t a p a r a l l e l p r o c e s s a n d y o u w e re s a yi n g i t i n re f e r e n c e t o t h e w o r k y o u a n d M s N g o ye d i d . I s t h a t t h e p r o c e s s t h a t y o u a r e n o w d e s cri b i n g t h a t M s M a l o n g e t e a n d t h e l a d y i n M r M o n t a n a ’s o ff i c e y o u w e re e n g a g e d w i t h , i s t h a t t h e p a r a l l e l p r o ce s s y o u a r e t a l ki n g about? M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : S o i n o t h e r w o r d s. . . o h , i f I c a n j u st a s k y o u 20 and tell me if I am wrong. T h e r e w a s t h e o ff i ci a l p r o c e s s t h a t yo u . . . y o u r o ff i c e a n d M s N g o y e ’s o ff i c e w a s i n v o l v e d with. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: And there was this process of his own p e r s o n a l a d vi s o r s a n d a n o u t si d e r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 196 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : . . . t h a t . . . w h o w a s a d vi si n g h i m , M r M o n t a n a . M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: c o n t r a ct ? And who had drawn up the Swifambo Wa s i t y o u r o ff i ce . . . o h , s o rr y. Yo u r o ff i c e . Or was it these other processes? M R D I N G I S WAY O : It was DM5. A s I u n d e r st o o d i t , i t w a s M s B re n d a M a l o n g e t e w h o d r e w u p t h e c o n t ra ct . ADV SONI SC: 10 So your office was not involved in the drafting of Swifambo. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: No. No, it was not. Now Ms Ngoye has described the manner in which Mr Montana dismissed her and of course she would have told you about it but in relation to your dismissal – your and her dismissal, what happened next? M R D I N G I S WAY O : So I did not go to the office on the 20th as I indicated I would because now there is this meeting and I felt - I do not k n o w, maybe let me not be presumptuous, let me just park m y going back to the office 20 and then she was fired and she relayed the message to me. So we then went to the CCMA. W e d i d t w o t h i n g s b a s i c a l l y, w e w r o t e t o t h e b o a r d , we said this is what has happened to us and we believe these are the reasons that this has happened to us. We are taking the matter to the CCMA but we Page 197 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 wanted you as the board to know that this is what happened under your watch and so we did not receive any response from the board but what happened after that is we were dismissal called - I back think to the about a office week and the letters of later the letters of dismissal were withdrawn by Mr Montana and then he then asked us to show cause why he should not suspend us. We wrote representations, he rejected them and suspended us and we were on suspension until he left. 10 ADV SONI SC: Now in paragraph 14.15 at page 105 you give your assessment of Mr Montana’s state of mind in regard to the two dismissals. Will you indicate to the Chairperson what you thought his state of mind was? This is paragraph 14.15. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . C h a i r, I s t a t e h e r e t h a t : “I submit that the reaction of Mr Montana was of one who had suffered a bout of temporary irrationality or someone who was overly invested in showing that his word was final or someone who 20 was overly invested in this transaction and was intolerant of anyone who saw the screaming irregularities in the transaction.” CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y, w h a t p a r a g r a p h , w h a t p a g e w a s that? ADV SONI SC: It is page 105, Page 198 of 224 paragraph 14.15, 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . P a r a g r a p h 1 0 5 ? No, page 105. Page 105. Paragraph 14.15, just at the bottom. O k a y. I t h i n k I – i t h a s b e e n a l o n g d a y, I am looking at the wrong – I am looking at Mr Achm at’s affidavit. O k a y. O k a y, l e t m e g e t t h e p a g e n u m b e r a g a i n n o w. I a m o n t h e r i g h t d o c u m e n t n o w. P a r a g r a p h 1 4 ? 10 ADV SONI SC: 14.15 which is right at the bottom of that page. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, I h a v e g o t i t , j a . I thought …[intervenes] W h y I d i d h e a r 2 5 o r s o m e t h i n g ? O k a y, I have got it. ADV SONI SC: I thought just Mr Dingiswayo’s description of what he understood or what he thought Mr Montana’s state of mind is, is a matter that you are looking at as a whole, Chairperson. 20 I thought we needed to put that on record. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: O k a y. Alright, then you have said in paragraph 14.16 that you went to the board. What we have not done, I am looking at the parallel process, in paragraph 14.17 at page 106. Page 199 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 Now you go back to the SLA and what happened to that? This is the agreement you said you would not support, is that correct? M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, t h e S L A w a s i n t e n d e d t o b e a n annexure to the agreement because, I mean, I said I think as I am preparing myself to assist you, I need to – a programme of the rest of these trainings as well as – before looking at the issues of whether it is irregular or not, the programme of the training, I also need some – 10 there must be some service level agreement that you c o n c l u d e w i t h t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r. So the document I was going to prepare would just contain the general terms but the specifics in terms of what is going to be the – the training is going to be and all of those things should be in this document called an SLA and then Ms Kondoa(?) told me that no, no, no, we have been talking about that, in fact I can send you a draft and then she sent me a document which is very similar to what is the SLA. 20 ADV SONI SC: MMD7? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: MMD7. Page 179. M R D I N G I S WAY O : No, I do not think so, I think it – no, s o r r y, I h a v e j o i n e d t h e C h a i r, I a m a t t h e w r o n g p l a c e . ADV SONI SC: Page 179. Page 200 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ja. That is the SLA. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , y e s , t h a t i s t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t was given to me but you will see when you read this document it does not have any of the essential terms of the contract, it does not tell you how many people are going to be trained, how much is this training going to cost and all of those things because it was not intended to be a selfstanding document. 10 ADV SONI SC: And you articulate that at paragraph 14.17 your reasons, is that correct, why you thought that the SLA was inadequate? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s , y e s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t . And why PRASA should not enter into such a contract. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Because the obligations of the parties were not properly set out and, in any case,, it now had become a self-standing agreement. 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. Now you were now dismissed on the 19 M a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . But do you say that that agreement, the SLA, was concluded by PRASA or signed by PRASA on the Page 201 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 29 May? This is a week and a half after your dismissal, is that correct? Look at the last page of the SLA, you will see that. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . Ye s , s o i t i s s i g n e d o n b e h a l f o f PRASA on the 29th. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . And you say a Ms Koko signed the agreement? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: 10 Ye s . No, I am just going back – was she in your department? In other words, in the legal department? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: No, she was in the HR department. Yo u say she was not in the HR department but …[intervenes] M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: She was in the HR department. She was in the HR department? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t . But this, given the fact that it is R82 million contract ought to be signed by - I mean, it ought to pass through legal, would that be correct? 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , C h a i r, t h a t w o u l d b e – w e l l , a l l contracts should be regardless of the size. ADV SONI SC: Now do you know if this passed through Group Legal? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I d o n o t t h i n k s o , C h a i r, b e c a u s e I h a d – as stated, I had not reported about this at the monthly Page 202 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 meeting of the legal department where all the legal a d v i s e r s c o m e a n d t h e y – p a r t l y, I m e a n , i t w a s t o a l e r t t h e m t o t h e f a c t t h a t , y o u k n o w, w e d o n o t d o t h e – w e d o not get involved in these kind of things so I do not think it went past – I mean, even the quality of the document, as a self-standing document, I do not think that any of my colleagues in the legal department would have agreed to this being the document. ADV SONI SC: 10 Yo u a r e n o t i n a p o s i t i o n t o s a y w h e t h e r i t h a d p a s s e d t h r o u g h t h e e y e s o f l a w y e r, i f I c o u l d u s e s u c h an expression? M R D I N G I S WAY O : No, no, not [indistinct – dropping voice] CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m a y h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h i s a l r e a d y a n d maybe I missed it. Do you know who had drafted it? MR D I N G I S WAY O : According to Ms Kondoa it is a document they were developing with Ms Shunmugan of P r o d i g y. CHAIRPERSON: 20 O h , o k a y. . J a , o k a y. And contracts would ordinarily be prepared by the legal department, is it not? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , w e e i t h e r d r a f t a … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] And if somebody else drafts them they would have to be approved by the legal department. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. Page 203 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Wa s M s K o n d o a l e g a l l y q u a l i f i e d ? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: No. And was Ms Koko legally qualified? M R D I N G I S WAY O : A s f a r a s I k n o w, n o , C h a i r, s h e w a s i n the HR department. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s , o k a y. Alright, then you describe or you point out that there were other people who had suffered adverse consequences at the hands of Mr Montana and you say that 10 at 14.18. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r, M r K h u z w a y o was suspended and there was just a dramatic thing that was done around his suspension. I am told that these reflector things were – where, y o u k n o w, t h a t a r e u s e d f o r w h e r e t h e r e i s a n i n v e s t i g a t i o n by police to warn people not to go in were put around his office door just to add dram a to his suspension. Mr Gangia was not suspended with such much fanfare but he was one of the people who are saying on the 20 payments that – the payments that PRASA was claiming were not valid or were not warranted. CHAIRPERSON: Now you refer to Mr Khuzwayo and Mr Gangia in that sentence, a letter you say who refused to requisition. Is it Mr Gangia who refused to requisition payment or is it both Mr Khuzwayo and Mr Gangia? Page 204 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : I t i s M r G a n g i a , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y, a l r i g h t . And did you get to know why Mr Khuzwayo was suspended or not really? M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, I t h i n k h e s a i d t o m e h e w a s accused of losing documents. CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: 10 Something like that. O k a y. But after Mr Montana left what happened to Mr Khuzwayo and Mr Gangia? M R D I N G I S WAY O : They came back, I mean, no charges were proffered against them and they cam e back to work. ADV SONI SC: And at whose intervention did that happen? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I think what happened is that the first peoples whose suspensions were lifted was myself and Ms Ngoye. ADV SONI SC: Ngoye, yes. M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 And then the then Group CEO engaged a firm to look at the other suspensions and engaged Milton Rose too look at the other suspensions and a report was produced which – there were a number of people that were just suspended for no reason and all of them came back. Yo u k n o w, there were some people in the HR department, I do not know what they were suspended for Page 205 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 an no one seems to be known what happened there and so they all came back. ADV SONI SC: Now in the next three subparagraphs, that is 14.19, 14.20, and 14.21 you deal with payments. Can I just ask you, you have mentioned those in 14.20 and 14.21 the meetings that Mr Moodley had with Mr Holele and Mr Makoto. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: 10 Ye s . That is at 14.21 and 14.20 earlier you mentioned the approach to Ms Page in December 2017. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Can I ask you to say to the Chairperson why what you say at 14.19 is important? M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r, I t h i n k i n a n o r g a n i s a t i o n l i k e PRASA you find that because in order to institutionalise an irregular contract there are number of players that you need for that to succeed. So you need to kind of create that chain of people that will assist you from the on boarding to the payment. 20 So it is normal where you find that although s o m e t h i n g i s s o i r r e g u l a r, i t s t i l l h a s c h a m p i o n s , i t s t i l l h a s those people who are saying he is paying you this thing, please feel sorry for this is innocent service provider and so forth. So there is always that and that is why even the Page 206 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 people from Prodigy gained entrance and went to Ms Page’s office. I mean, one Prodigy official cam e to my office, he was just there in the corridor and he said he is looking for me, he did not know –so I said who are you? And he told m e w h y. He says I am from Prodigy and he was trying to say let us have a meeting and discuss blah, blah, blah, so I said to him no, no, no, come, sit, it is just going to take 10 five minutes, let me explain to you, I am not going to set u p a n o t h e r, y o u k n o w, w e c a n k i l l i t n o w a n d h e l e f t . So the –and you ask yourself, how did that person gain entrance? How did that person know where to look for me and all those kind of things. So there is always people who are working for PRASA but who are working for service providers. ADV SONI SC: Now in December 2017 in paragraph 14.22, you point out that there was a news report in relation to this Prodigy contract and you annex that report 20 as NMD9 which appears at page 189. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Now you do not have to read the whole report in but would you confirm whether that is correct, that the report dealt with the Prodigy contract and, of course, Mr Roy Moodley’s association with Prodigy? Page 207 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: Ye s , I a m t r y i n g – o k a y t h e r e i t i s . Page 189. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s , i t i s – t h e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e l i n k between Mr Moodley and Prodigy is on page 190 at the top. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . M R D I N G I S WAY O : “We can It says: today reveal that Prodigy Business Services, a provider of training and skills services made at least…[intervenes] 10 CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y, h a v e y o u i d e n t i f i e d w h a t report that is? M R D I N G I S WAY O : O h , s o r r y, y e s . A p o l o g i e s , C h a i r, i t i s …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Just identify it, ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: It is a report by News 24. And who is the author of that report? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mr Pieter Louis Myburgh. Give the date as well if you have the date as well. 20 M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: The date is 15 December 2017. Ye s . And what is the essence of that, the article? CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y, I i n t e r r u p t e d h i m w h i l e h e was reading the first sentence, if I am not mistaken, or had Page 208 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 you finished? M R D I N G I S WAY O : N o , n o , n o , I h a d n o t f i n i s h e d , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : “We It is at the top of page 190. can today reveal that Prodigy Business Services, a provider of training and skills services made at least one payment of more than 4 million to one of Moodley’s com panies in 2015. was 10 made after Prodigy had The payment earlier secured a contract from PRASA that would ultimately earn the company 82 million.” ADV SONI SC: And if you look at the first page of that article, which is at page 189, you will see a picture there. Whose picture is depicted there? M R D I N G I S WAY O : and Ms Jessie C h a i r, i t i s t h e p i c t u r e o f M r M o o d l e y Duarte, I think the Deputy Secretary General of the ANC. ADV SONI SC: Now this article quotes Ms Nerishni Shunmugan as saying they did not want to go into details 20 of the contract, is that right? If you look at – it is just before that picture on page 190. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . Ye s , i t j u s t s a y s t h a t i t i s inaccurate and false. ADV SONI SC: MR Ye s . D I N G I S WAY O : But she did Page 209 of 224 not answer detailed 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 queries about Prodigy’s payments to Moodley’s com panies. ADV SONI SC: Ye s a n d i n j u s t u n d e r t h a t p i c t u r e s h e a l s o demands something from News24. What is it that she demands according to the article? M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: S o u r c e s f o r t h e s t o r y. Now just in regard to the Prodigy contract – w e c a n f i n i s h t h i s q u i t e q u i c k l y. Let me ask you, the newspaper article refers to Mr Moodley’s connection by virtue 10 of a R4 million payment made to one of his companies, My Prodigy. MR DINGISWAYO: ADV SONI SC: Yes. Is there any more direct link between Prodigy and Mr Moodley or was there a more direct link? MR DINGISWAYO: ADV SONI SC: I can just ask you to look at NMD1. MR DINGISWAYO: ADV SONI SC: 20 Chair, the …[intervenes] 1, yes. Page 123. MR DINGISWAYO: Yes, I mean, this came from the payment NMD1 application, is a printout of company information from – I think it is WinDeed. It sets out the company information of Prodigy Business Services and this came – this document came with a payment application that was launched by Prodigy and it shows that at some point Mr Moodley was a director of Prodigy. Page 210 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, Mr Soni, the article at page 190 at the bottom refers to Mr Moodley having paid Mr Zuma a salary of R1 million a month. ADV SONI SC: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: I seem to remember that at some stage I had in mind that that is what I had read but when you led evidence with regard to what Roy Moodley’s company paid the former President I seem to think that what you – the evidence you led seemed to reflect a much lower amount 10 than that per months, about 65 000 or something. ADV SONI SC: About R65 000 a month and a total of about R1,5 million. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Altogether? Altogether. Yes. So do we know whether this was just a mistake on the part of the author or could that be other payments that have not – were not been – the Commission has not been told about? ADV SONI SC: 20 Chairperson, may I put this as elegantly or as neutrally as possible. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: The figures we have given are perhaps more accurate from the information that has been given. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay, okay, thank you. were from the bank. Page 211 of 224 And they 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: That is right, yes, yes. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ja, okay. Now just coming back to the contract, the Prodigy contract. you. There are two things I want to raise with One is, there was a report on the contract, is that correct? That report was done by Mr Majola. You referred to it at different parts of your affidavit. MR DINGISWAYO: ADV SONI SC: 10 Yes. But in paragraph 15 of your affidavit you say the report is annexed as NMD2. MR DINGISWAYO: Yes. ADV SONI SC: And you give details about what is contained in the report. Chairperson, with respect, it may not be necessary to do that for two reasons. I could just alert Mr Dingiswayo to particular paragraphs of the report and then what the status of the Prodigy dispute is at the moment, we circumvent having to deal with those matters. So would it be correct, Mr Dingiswayo, that the 20 document at NMD2 at page 128 is the report you are talking about, the Majola report? MR DINGISWAYO: ADV SONI SC: That is correct, Chair. If you look at the conclusion at page 135, I just want to start off with – we do not have to go through all of them, at 5.1 what does he say? Page 212 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 MR DINGISWAYO: It reads, Chair: “There is a number of witnesses who are yet to be interviewed and submit statements to this matter. On statements obtained it is clear that former PRASA technical CEO Mr Saki Zamxaka’s statement will be critical to this matter.” ADV SONI SC: Yes and then 5.2? MR DINGISWAYO: It says: “There is host of documents and records still to be 10 retrieved from different offices or employees in order to complete this investigation as per the scope.” ADV SONI SC: And 5.4? M R D I N G I S WAY O : It says there’s a general feeling from some managers that Prodigy training of PRASA employees was not worth the money which they have been paid to t h e m a s i t d i d n o t b e n e f i t t h e b u s i n e s s i n a n y w a y. ADV SONI SC: And 5.5? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 20 Although the investigation process has not been completed it is confirmed through the statements obtained that there was no SCM or tender process followed to employ the services of Prodigy for this training program. ADV SONI SC: I just want you to stop there for a moment. What is contained in 5.5, how does that compare with your view about the SCM process? Page 213 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 M R D I N G I S WAY O : Chair it agrees with my view that there was no SCM process. ADV SONI SC: And then 5.6? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 5.6 says Ms Nerishni Shunmugam has been contacted on a number of occasions for a meeting so t h a t s h e c o u l d p r e s e n t h e r s i d e o f t h e m a t t e r, a n d s u b m i t a presentation to clarify the issues in dispute and she wrote in a letter via BVM Attorneys dated 13 September 2017 s t a t i n g t h a t s h e i s n o t w i l l i n g t o g i v e a n i n t e r v i e w. 10 ADV SONI SC: And then if you could read the first sentence of paragraph 5.7. M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ms Shunm ugam’s reluct ance to be interviewed for the purpose of this investigation appears to be in contravention of the partnership agreement which she signed together with Mr Lucky Montana and other w i t n e s s e s d a t e d 11 . 1 0 . 2 0 1 0 a n d q u o t e s 6 . 1 w h i c h s a y s : “The provider will provide internal auditors of PRASA with all necessary support, facilities and access 20 these to information services requirements, in pertaining accordance appropriate to PRASA with assurances and legislative will on r e q u e s t b e p r o v i d e d t o P R A S A’ s i n t e r n a l a u d i t o r s regarding the controls instituted in respect of the provider systems which provides interface with PRASA.” Page 214 of 224 services to or 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: Ye s , n o w d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e f u r t h e r interviews were conducted and the further documents were retrieved as is suggested in 5.1 and 5.2? M R D I N G I S WAY O : I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a i r, I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e y were. ADV SONI SC: that, what is But can I just ask you finally in respect of the position with regard to the dispute between Prodigy and PRASA? M R D I N G I S WAY O : 10 submitted an Chair the – they made application, we answering affidavit, just before I was suspended I was finalising an affidavit for the – an affidavit to review the – for the Court to review and set aside the c o n t r a c t , b a s e d o n l e g a l i t y, s o I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e i s a l o t o f work in the organisation at the moment and I do not think anyone has really gotten to that, but that was the next stage, and I think the other thing is that at some point Prodigy’s lawyers had withdrawn, so it looked like the matter had died and Prodigy was trying other avenues. I think Chair we learnt from the dispute between the COO in 20 t h e O f f i c e o f t h e P u b l i c P r o t e c t o r a n d t h e P u b l i c P r o t e c t o r, the COO that was dismissed that the Public Protector was t r y i n g t o f a s t - t r a c k t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f P r o d i g y. T h e y w e n t t o N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y t o s a y t h e y h a v e n o t b e e n p a i d a n d w e w r o t e b a c k t o N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d s a i d we are disputing the payment and they went also to the Page 215 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t t o t r y a n d g e t p a i d . So after the lawyers withdrew it looked like they were looking at other avenues to try and get payment. ADV SONI SC: And you say that Prodigy went to the P u b l i c P r o t e c t o r, y o u r e c a l l y o u s a i d e a r l i e r t h a t t h e f o r m e r P u b l i c P r o t e c t o r, M s T h u l i M a d o n s e l a , h a d f i l e d h e r r e p o r t “ D e r a i l e d ” w h i c h w a s i n 2 0 1 5 , 2 0 1 4 s o r r y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : ADV SONI SC: 10 Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t . Now when Prodigy went to the Office of the Public Protector who was the Public Protector? MR D I N G I S WAY O : It was Advocate Busisiwe Makhwebane. ADV SONI SC: That is the person who succeeded Ms Madonsela? M R D I N G I S WAY O : CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: 20 That is correct. We are at quarter past five. Ye s . How much time do we still need? Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n c a n I p l a c e t h i s o n record that the other matter that Mr Dingiswayo is to deal with is the Siyaya matter concerning Judge Makhubela. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . Now he to a large extent confirms what Ms Ngoye said in her evidence and the first two documents she dealt with. Page 216 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . A n d t h e n t h e r e i s P R A S A’ s t h e n a t t o r n e y, Mr Makashwa who has filed an affidavit which largely is in line with what Mr Dingiswayo has said. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . May I make the suggestion, and I could do a small synopsis of what is there and ask at some stage that that part of Mr Dingiswayo’s affidavit be dealt with purely by way of affidavit. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV SONI SC: Because there is nothing controversial, even in terms of what Judge Makhubela says in her response to the various affidavits. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , j a I t h i n k i n s o f a r i f M r D i n g i s w a y o i s not going to be adding anything in regard to the Siyaya matter but will just be largely corroborating what Ms Ngoye has said then until what we can do is wait and see whether Judge Makhubela disputes any of that, and if therefore there is a need for corroboration then he can be called. So 20 you could put in an affidavit that confirm s that part. ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . And then if at a later stage the version that he was going to corroborate is disputed then if need be he can be called back but having I wonder how much d i s p u t e t h e r e w i l l b e , b u t w e w i l l s e e , w e d o n o t k n o w. Page 217 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: Ye s , b u t C h a i r p e r s o n m a y I m a k e t h i s point, we will know next week because we are consulting with Judge Makhubela next week. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . So we will put Mr Dingiswayo’s affidavit to her so we will know if there is a dispute and that will just narrow things down. In fact, it will save the Commission valuable time in that regard. CHAIRPERSON: 10 ADV SONI SC: Ye s . And we just concentrate on anything that is serious merit. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , s o o n S i y a y a w e d o n o t n e e d t o bother to cover that part insofar as he is concerned? ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: That is so. Ye s , w h a t e l s e w o u l d s t i l l b e o u t s t a n d i n g that needs to be covered? ADV SONI SC: That is all, that is the rest of his affidavit, but before we ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , b u t I d o n ’ t w a n t t o – I d o n o t w a n t us to do injustice to anything important that might still have to be covered, but if we have covered the important things then it would be fine. But you have something to raise? ADV SONI SC: asked Mr I just wanted to say Chairperson when I Dingiswayo about the status Page 218 of 224 of the Prodigy 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 dispute I wanted to place on record that in PRASA Bundle B Exhibit SS3 from page ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Is that the same file we have been looking at? ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: No, no, no it is the ...[intervenes] A different bundle? It is the Bundle B – you need not go there Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: 10 O h I d o n ’ t n e e d t o g o l o o k a t i t , o k a y, alright. ADV SONI SC: No, it is just to say that this matter is before the High Court. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s . And the papers in the High Court are before the Commission. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: O h , o k a y. We have included it, just like we did with t h e S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y, no, no, for the sake of completeness ja. ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . J a , o k a y, n o t h a t i s f i n e . S o t h e P r o d i g y matter is before the Court, the Siyangena matters are before the Court. ADV SONI SC: Siyaya is before ...[intervenes] Page 219 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: Siyaya matters, I do not know if they are before the Court because hasn’t Siyaya been liquidated? ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t t h e l i q u i d a t o r s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ] The liquidators are still pursuing that? Ye s . Okay that is before the Court, Swifambo there was a High Court judgment and an SCA judgment saying that the contract was invalid but the money hasn’t been recovered and very little, if anything has happened to 10 get the money back. ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t w a s t h e i s s u e y o u r a i s e d y e s t e r d a y. Ye s , y e s . When you combine all of these amounts, the Swifambo amount is what, four comma something? ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: The Swifambo is R3,5billion. R3.5billion and ...[intervenes] Siyangena is in the region of about five – perhaps with – but if I could just put the contracts it is R4billion. 20 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: It is about R4billion? Ye s . So that is about seven and a half or something billion and the Siyaya? ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Siyaya is that R50million. About R50million. Page 220 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 ADV SONI SC: Sorry R60million. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: R60million? Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Is there one that we are leaving out, is it all of them there? ADV SONI SC: Ye s a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e t h e P r o d i g y o n e ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: 10 Oh the Prodigy how much is that? It is about what PRASA is doing is it wants to review and set aside the whole contract with the intention of claiming back all the money and the ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d h o w m u c h w a s i n v o l v e d i n Prodigy? ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: Hundred and – sorry R82million. R82million, so all of these entities the amounts involved must be somewhere just above R7billion? ADV SONI SC: It is about – it is closer to R8billion than R7billion. 20 CHAIRPERSON: It is close to R8billion, ja. Ye s o k a y, n o that is alright, so would that be the end of what we need to cover with him? ADV SONI SC: CHAIRPERSON: missing With Mr Dingiswayo. Is there something that we might be Mr Dingiswayo that you feel is important that Page 221 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 should be covered, that you – in terms of your own evidence apart from ...[intervenes] M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: What you might have wished to say on Siyaya? M R D I N G I S WAY O : C h a i r o n – i t i s o n S i y a y a . CHAIRPERSON: It is on Siyaya? M R D I N G I S WAY O : Ye s t e r d a y, I t h i n k i t w a s y e s t e r d a y w h e n w e w e r e t o l d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i n q u i r y, a l i q u i d a t i o n 10 i n q u i r y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : And where there was a number of concessions that were made by PRASA employees. CHAIRPERSON: By employees, ja. M R D I N G I S WAY O : witnesses Montana, who Daniel What you are not told is that the star made those Mthimkhulu concessions and a where Lucky gentleman called Mayishepo Papi so what to make of those concessions is ...[intervenes] 20 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: Ye s , y e s . If I could and I know it is comment Chairperson, it is like Mr Montana coming and saying these Prodigy contracts are good because I signed them. CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: [laughing] That is exactly what happened in the Page 222 of 224 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 inquiry and at the right time Chairperson you will be given, when Ms Makhubela comes, you will be given a copy of the Commission’s ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no, that is fine, because we have got the transcript of the proceedings, we have got the interim report as well. ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So we have got a lot that. O k a y, otherwise you are covered? 10 M R D I N G I S WAY O : I a m o k a y C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Dingiswayo for Ye s , o k a y. coming No thank you very much Mr through to give evidence, if necessary you will be called back but I think there probably is still a lot that you need to – that the Commission would need to – would need you for in terms of other issues that have been raised by you and Ms Ngoye and maybe other people, but thank you very much for coming to give evidence. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I guess that at some stage, ja if you are n e e d e d c e r t a i n l y y o u w i l l b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k . O k a y. M R D I N G I S WAY O : T h a n k y o u s i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. do not have a sitting. ADV SONI SC: No. Page 223 of 224 So tomorrow we 02 JULY 2020 – DAY 229 CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: We do not? No. CHAIRPERSON: And then I need to just announce for purposes of the media, so tomorrow we won’t have a sitting but next week we will continue, on Monday we will hear evidence from – I will hear evidence from Mr Frolick, a member of Parliament, we will deal for most of the week I think we will deal, or maybe half of the week we will deal with some Bosasa related persons or implicated persons. 10 There will be I think other Bosasa related witnesses during the week and implicated persons will give evidence for most part, for most of next week. O k a y, w e a d j o u r n . ADV SONI SC: REGISTRAR: As it pleases Chairperson. All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 6 J U LY 2 0 2 0 Page 224 of 224