C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R
1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N

03 AUGUST 2020

D AY 2 4 3

22 Woodlands Drive
Irene Woods, Centurion
TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7008
MOBILE: 079 429 4795
info@gautengtranscribers.co.za

CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

03 AUGUST 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH

Page 2 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
PROCEEDINGS RESUME ON 03 AUGUST 2020
CHAIRPERSON:

Lighting seems not to be as good as it

should be.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay let us continue.

I think they will

attend to it.
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n yo u w o u l d r e c a l l t h a t o n F ri d a y
t h e r e w a s a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a v a ri a t i o n o f t h e d i r e ct i v e t h a t
w a s i s s u e d o n t h e 2 4 J u l y. O ve r t h e w e e k e n d w e w e r e t o l d –
10

re c e i v e d a n o t i f i c a t i o n t h a t M r N x a s a n a i s n o w g o i n g t o b e
a ct i n g f o r J u d g e M a k h u b e l e a n d h e r p r e vi o u s a t t o r n e y s h a d
w i t h d r a w n f ro m t h e m a t t e r. E a rl y t h i s m o r n i n g w e r e c e i v e d a
new

Notice

of

Motion

a s ki n g

for

f u rt h e r

relief

but

C h a i r p e r s o n f o r a l l p ra ct i c a l p u r p o s e s w h a t w e h a v e i s t h e
a p p l i ca t i o n t h a t w a s a d j o u r n e d o n F ri d a y a n d t h e e xt e n t t o
w h i c h i t i s b e i n g a m p l i f i e d t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

So let us – you propose to – to let

me hear what Mr Nxasana has to say?
A D V S O N I S C : A s y o u p l e a s e C h a i rp e r s o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h e y j u st n e e d t o s a n i t i s e t h e r e f i r st .
ADV NXASANA:

Thank you Chairperson.

si t u a t i o n i s a s f o l l o w s.

C h a i rp e r s o n t h e

I n d e e d , w e re c e i v e d i n st r u ct i o n s o n

S a t u rd a y t o …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u j u st w a n t t o p l a c e y o u r se l f o n

re c o r d f i r st p ro p e r l y.
Page 3 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV NXASANA: Thank you Chairperson.
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u ca n m o v e y o u r m a s k a l i t t l e b i t i f

…
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

If you do not have a problem with that so

t h a t I c a n h e a r y o u p r o p e rl y.
10

ADV NXASANA:

T h a n k yo u C h a i r p e r s o n I a m – m y n a m e i s

N x a s a n a i n i t i a l s M S O o f MS O N x a s a n a a n d A s so ci a t e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV NXASANA:
am

here

A t t o rn e y s b a s e d i n D u rb a n .

r e p re s e n t i n g

Judge

Chairperson I

Makhubele.

I

re c e i v e d

i n st r u ct i o n s o n S a t u r d a y t h a t w a s t h e 3 1 – i s i t t h e 1 s t ? Ye s
o n t h e 1 s t – S a t u rd a y t h e 1 s t A u g u st t o a s si st h e r w i t h t h i s
m a t t e r a n d m y i n st ru ct i o n s w e re v e r y sp e ci f i c t h a t I h a v e t o
b r i e f s e n i o r c o u n s e l i n t h e m a t t e r. I h a v e – I w a s a l s o g i v e n
the name of the senior counsel that client intends briefing
20

a n d I h a v e co n t a ct e d t h e s e n i o r c o u n s e l w h o t h e n a d vi s e d
me

that

he

is

–

he

will

only

be

available

after

mid-

S e p t e m b e r b e ca u s e o f t h e p r i o r e n g a g e m e n t s t h a t h e i s b u s y
w i t h . A n d t h e se n i o r c o u n s e l a l s o a d vi s e d m e – h e i n d i c a t e d
t h a t h e w i l l b e a p p e a ri n g b e f o re t h e C h a i r p e r s o n h e r e i n t h i s
c o m m i s si o n i n a m a t t e r i n v o l vi n g t h e – I t h i n k i t i s t h e D G o f
Page 4 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
t h e S t a t e S e cu ri t y A g e n c y b u t a d a t e h a s n o t y e t b e e n
a l l o c a t e d f o r t h a t m a t t e r. A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y.
A D V N X A S A N A : A s a re s u l t o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V N X A S A N A : A s a re s u l t o f m y i n st r u ct i o n s C h a i rp e r s o n I
i m m e d i a t e l y se n t a N o t i ce o f A p p o i n t m e n t a s a t t o r n e y s o f
re c o r d I t h i n k i t w a s o n S a t u r d a y – o n S u n d a y i f I a m n o t
m i st a k e n .
10

I a m s e e i n g cl i e n t f o r t h e f i r st t i m e b e c a u s e w e

h a ve b e e n c o m m u n i c a t i n g o v e r t h e p h o n e si n c e I a m b a s e d
i n D u r b a n a n d s h e i s b a se d h e r e .
At

the

time

of

re c e i vi n g

i n st r u ct i o n s

I

was

also

si m u l t a n e o u sl y a d vi s e d t h a t – t h a t w a s b e f o r e i n st ru ct i o n s
w e re c o n f i rm e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a p p l i c a t i o n t h a t w a s s e t
d o w n o n F ri d a y a n d t h e cl i e n t c o u l d n o t m a k e i t b e c a u se o f
t h e s h o rt n o t i c e a n d a l s o b e c a u s e o f t h e d e v e l o p m e n t s
a r i si n g f r o m t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h e – o f h e r a t t o rn e y s o f
re c o r d o n t h a t d a y.
T h e n t h e si t u a t i o n i s I p o i n t e d o u t i n t h e l e t t e r t h a t I
20

w i l l b e a p p e a ri n g t o d a y a n d s e e k i n g a n a d j o u r n m e n t s o t h a t
w e c a n f u l l y a n d p r o p e rl y c o n s u l t w i t h cl i e n t t o g e t h e r w i t h
counsel.
T h a t i s t h e r e a s o n I a m h e r e t o d a y.

Thank you

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

So

you

–

you

Page 5 of 108

are

a p p l yi n g

for

a

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
p o st p o n e m e n t a n d t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e p o st p o n e m e n t o r t h e
a p p l i ca t i o n i s t h a t yo u h a ve b e e n i n st r u ct e d a s t h e a t t o r n e y
a n d yo u r i n st r u ct i o n s a r e t o o b t a i n s e n i o r c o u n s e l ’s s e r v i ce s
– se n i o r co u n s e l – t h e p a rt i c u l a r s e n i o r c o u n s e l t h a t i s
s o u g h t t o b e i n v o l v e d i n t h e m a t t e r i s n o t a va i l a b l e u n t i l m i d S e p t e m b e r.
A D V N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i rp e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B a si c a l l y, t h e l a w y e r s a r e n o t re a d y ?
A D V N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i rp e r s o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: That is the problem.
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u r cl i e n t h a d l a w y e r s f o r a l o n g t i m e .
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

according

to

their

letter

as

I

u n d e r st a n d i t – t h e i r co r r e sp o n d e n c e t h e i r m a n d a t e w a s
terminated on I think they said on Thursday but I think the
c o m m u n i c a t i o n t o t h e c o m m i s si o n w a s o n F ri d a y m o r n i n g
w h e n t h e a p p l i c a t i o n t h a t yo u r cl i e n t h a d e ff e ct i v e l y l o d g e d
s h e h a d n o t p u t i t a s a n a p p l i ca t i o n i t w a s a n a ff i d a v i t b u t I
20

d e ci d e d t o t r e a t i t a s a n a p p l i c a t i o n b e c a u s e sh e w a s m a ki n g
a

ce rt a i n

r e q u e st

in

the

a ff i d a vi t

with

regard

to

the

a m e n d m e n t o f t h e d i r e ct i v e s.
T h a t a p p l i c a t i o n w a s s e t d o w n f o r h e a ri n g a t t w o
o ’ cl o c k i n t h e c o u r se o f t h e m o rn i n g .

I think the legal team

o b t a i n e d a t l e a st I t h i n k t h e s e c re t a r y o f t h e c o m m i s si o n –
Page 6 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
a ct i n g s e cr e t a r y o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n t h e c o rr e s p o n d e n ce o r
Notice of Withdrawal and therefore nobody appeared at two
o ’ cl o c k o n h e r b e h a l f .
I decided to postpone the matter to today on the
b a si s t h a t i t w a s i m p o rt a n t t h a t u n l e s s t h e re i s a g o o d
re a s o n t h a t i s a d v a n ce d f o r a n a d j o u r n m e n t t h e h e a r i n g o f
h e r e vi d e n c e s h o u l d c o n t i n u e t o d a y a n d t h a t a p p l i c a t i o n
would be deal with this morning.

But from what you are

s a yi n g I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u a r e i n a p o si t i o n t o d e a l
10

w i t h a n yt h i n g o t h e r t h a n t h e a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t .
I n o t h e r w o r d s, I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u a r e e v e n i n a
p o si t i o n t o d e a l w i t h t h a t a p p l i c a t i o n i t s e l f i n so f a r a s i t m a y
h a ve

a s p e ct s

p o st p o n e m e n t .

that

do

not

or

may

not

relate

to

a

I t m a y b e t h a t a l l o f t h e m re l a t e t o a

p o st p o n e m e n t b u t I j u st w a n t t o m a k e su r e t h a t I u n d e r st a n d
quite well what it is that you are dealing with.
A D V N X A S A N A : C h a i r b e f o r e I re s p o n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V N X A S A N A : I s e e cl i e n t i s w a v i n g t h e r e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Yo u w a n t t o …
A D V N X A S A N A : I f I m a y a p p r o a ch h e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y a l ri g h t .
ADV NXASANA:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

C h a i r p e rh a p s w i t h o u t

p r e j u d i c e t o cl i e n t ’s ri g h t s s h e a d vi s e s m e t h a t i n f a ct I
o m i t t e d t o a d d r e s s t h a t b e c a u s e h a vi n g t h e n n o t e d t h a t t h e
Page 7 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
m a t t e r w a s s e t d o w n o n F ri d a y I d i d ca n v a s s t h a t i s s u e w i t h
h e r w i t h a vi e w t o f i n d i n g o ut i f s h e t h e n d i d m a k e a n
appearance

b e f o re

the

attorneys had withdrawn.

c o m m i s si o n

after

the

e r st w h i l e

But then she indicated to me that

a l a d y f r o m t h e c o m m i s si o n w h o c a l l e d h e r a n d a d v i s e d h e r
t h a t sh e w a s d i r e ct e d t o a p p e a r i n p e r s o n a f t e r t h e a t t o r n e y s
h a d w i t h d ra w n a n d t h a t l a d y t o l d h e r t h a t t h e m a t t e r w a s se t
down at two.

I t w a s a t a p p r o xi m a t e l y a b o u t h a l f p a st o n e

w h e n s h e r e c e i ve d t h e c a l l a n d i t w a s i m p o s si b l e f o r h e r t o
10

m a k e a n a p p e a r a n c e c o n si d e ri n g t h a t sh e h a d t o d r i v e a n d
come here.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I – I d o u n d e r st a n d u p t o a c e rt a i n

p o i n t m a y b e h e r i n a b i l i t y t o b e h e r e o n F ri d a y.
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e m a y – s h e m a y h a v e b e e n i n c o u rt ,

s h e m a y h a v e h a d s o m e c o m m i t m e n t s a n d t h e t e rm i n a t i o n o f
m a n d a t e o f t h e a t t o r n e y s m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d a t t h e l a st
minute.

S o – s o i t i s j u st a p i t y t h a t n o b o d y a p p e a r e d b u t I

d i d n o t d i s m i s s t h e a p p l i c a t i o n I p o st p o n e d i t t o t o d a y.
20

So

m y q u e st i o n i s w h e t h e r y o u a r e m o vi n g t h a t a p p l i c a t i o n o r
y o u j u st m o vi n g a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t b e c a u s e
of

the

reasons

that

you

h a ve

a d va n c e d

separate

f ro m

w h a t e v e r r e a s o n s m a y h a v e b e e n i n t h a t a p p l i ca t i o n . O r i s i t
– i s i t b o t h . I j u st w a n t t o k n o w w h a t I a m d e a l i n g w i t h .
ADV NXASANA:

O h t h a n k s Yo u r Wo r s h i p – s o r r y C h a i r.
Page 8 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
C h a i r m y – m y st a n d p o i n t t o d a y i s t o m o v e a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r
a p o st p o n e m e n t . F i r st l y, t o d e a l w i t h t h e a p p l i c a t i o n i t s e l f a s
w e l l a s t o d e a l w i t h t h e – t h e – h e r t e st i m o n y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NXASANA:

S i m p l y b e ca u s e f ro m m y r e a d i n g o f t h e

m a t e ri a l t h a t h a s b e e n p r o vi d e d t o m e a n d a l s o f r o m t h e
i n st r u ct i o n s t h a t I m a n a g e d t o t a k e t e l e p h o n i c a l l y f r o m c l i e n t
C h a i r w e a r e d e a l i n g w i t h – I a m n o t s a yi n g t h a t s h e m u st b e
t re a t e d d i ff e r e n t l y t o o t h e r w i t n e s s e s b u t t h e f a c t o f t h e
10

m a t t e r i s s h e i s a si t t i n g j u d g e .

A n d a si t t i n g – a s a s i t t i n g

j u d g e w e k n o w t h a t t h e m a t t e r w h i c h s h e i s i n vi t e d t o t e st i f y
about where she has been implicated by some witnesses that
m a t t e r s i s s e r vi n g b e f o r e t h e J u d i ci a l C o n d u ct C o m m i t t e e o f
t h e JS C .

And the – a recommendation has already been

t a k e n t h a t a t r i b u n a l s h o u l d b e e st a b l i s h e d t o i n v e st i g a t e
t h o se a l l e g a t i o n s.

The point I am making Chair is that the

re a s o n w h y s h e s e e k s t h e a s si st a n c e o f s e n i o r co u n s e l i t i s
b e ca u s e o f t h e r e p e r c u s si o n s t h a t t h e m a t t e r m i g h t e n d u p
h a vi n g o n h e r s e l f .
20

The matter has the potential of – of

getting her impeached if one were to say so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV NXASANA: And she knew this.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t t h a t i s n o t so m e t h i n g s h e w o u l d

h a ve re a l i s e d o n l y re c e n t l y. T h a t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t s h e k n e w
a long time ago.
Page 9 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
ADV NXASANA:

C h a i r I – I a g r e e t h a t s h e kn e w a b o u t t h a t

p e r h a p s b u t i f – I t h i n k w h e n s h e g e t s t h e o p p o rt u n i t y t o
e x p l a i n h e r se l f p r o p e rl y, sh e w i l l t a k e t h e C h a i r p e r s o n i n t o
h e r c o n f i d e n c e a n d e x p l a i n w h a t e x a ct l y h a p p e n e d . B u t a s o f
n o w C h a i r I w a s g i v e n a n – a n a s s u ra n c e t h a t t h e m a t t e r w i l l
d e f i n i t e l y s e e t o f i n a l i t y a n d t h a t i s w h y I a m h e r e – I ca m e
a l l t h e w a y y e st e r d a y f r o m D u r b a n t o m a k e s u re t h a t t h e
m a t t e r – i f a p o st p o n e m e n t i s g r a n t e d b y m i d -S e p t e m b e r
here counsel will be available and we will have…
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e y o u r cl i e n t h a s h a d a l o n g t i m e t o

m a k e a l l t h e p r e p a r a t i o n s.

She did not know as far as I can

g a t h e r f r o m t h e v a r i o u s a ff i d a vi t s a n d d o c u m e n t s t h a t a r e i n
t h e f i l e o f t h e c o m m i s si o n . S h e d i d n o t j u st g e t t o k n o w t h a t
t h e r e w e r e a l l ki n d s o f a l l e g a t i o n s a g a i n st h e r w i t h r e g a r d t o
t h e r o l e sh e p l a y e d w h e n s h e w a s C h a i r p e r so n o f t h e B o a r d
o f P R A S A o n l y t h i s y e a r.

S h e k n e w t h a t t h e re w e re

a l l e g a t i o n s a g a i n st h e r i n r e g a rd t o h e r r o l e i n P R A S A
a l re a d y i n 2 0 1 8 .
2018.
20

S h e l e f t t h e b o a rd I t h i n k a b o u t m i d - M a r c h

T h e r e w e r e c o u rt a p p l i ca t i o n s t h a t w e r e b r o u g h t b y

P R A S A r e l a t i n g t o a g a i n st S i y a y a w h e r e a l l e g a t i o n s w e r e
m a d e a g a i n st – a g a i n st h e r b y I t h i n k s o m e o f t h e w i t n e s se s
t h a t h a v e g i ve n e vi d e n ce . S h e – s h e h a s k n o w n a b o u t t h o s e
a l l e g a t i o n s f o r q u i t e so m e t i m e .

I f I u n d e r st a n d c o r r e ct l y

f ro m co r r e sp o n d e n c e , s h e h e r s e l f a t s o m e st a g e i n d i c a t e d
t h a t sh e w a n t e d t o cl e a r h e r n a m e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e s e
Page 10 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
a l l e g a t i o n s. A n d s h e h a s h a d a ff i d a vi t s – t h e a ff i d a v i t s o f M r
– o f M s M a rt h a N g o y e , M r D i n g i s w a y o a n d M r A g m a t f r o m
F e b r u a r y t h i s y e a r. T h a t i s si x m o n t h s.

Somebody who was

v e r y c o n ce r n e d a b o u t t h e s e a l l e g a t i o n s w o u l d n o t e v e n h a v e
waited for a date to – of hearing would do all the work
n e ce s s a r y t o b e r e a d y. A n d s h e h a s h a d t h e a ff i d a vi t s o f M r
B o t e s a n d M r M a g a sh o a f o r t h e p a st a t l e a st t w o m o n t h s, I
t h i n k.

She had attorneys from I think from soon after she

was served with Rule 3.3 Notices in February or March and
10

t h e a t t o r n e y s b e g a n t o c o r r e sp o n d w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e
c o m m i s si o n .

A s I u n d e r st a n d t h e p o si t i o n t h e l e g a l t e a m o f

t h e c o m m i s si o n c o m m u n i c a t e d t o h e r t h a t t h e y w o u l d l i k e h e r
v e r s i o n o n t h e a l l e g a t i o n s a l r e a d y a t t h a t t i m e – m a y b e A p ri l
– months ago.

S h e d i d n o t f u rn i s h t h e c o m m i s si o n w i t h h e r

v e r s i o n a l l t h e s e m o n t h s. T h e o n l y a ff i d a vi t t h a t sh e – o r t h e
f i r st a ff i d a vi t t h a t s h e f u rn i s h e d r e l a t e d t o M r B o t e s – M r
B o t e s’ st a t e m e n t a n d I t h i n k i n i t s h e d o e s d e a l w i t h ce rt a i n
a s p e ct s

of

what

happened

at

PRASA

when

she

was

C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e B o a rd h e r r e l a t i o n sh i p w i t h M s N g o y e a n d
20

Mr Dingiswayo.

I a m n o t s a yi n g t h a t s h e d e a l s f u l l y w i t h

t h o se a l l e g a t i o n s b u t s h e d o e s d e a l w i t h t h e m .

S h e – t h o se

a t t o r n e y s w i t h d r e w a t s o m e st a g e a f e w m o n t h s a g o a n d s h e
i n d i c a t e d t h a t sh e w a s p r e p a r e d t o m e e t w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m
o f t h e c o m m i s si o n a n d s h e w a s r e a d y t o f u r n i s h h e r a ff i d a vi t
o r a ff i d a vi t s. A n d I t h i n k t h a t w a s e i t h e r so m e t i m e i n I t h i n k
Page 11 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
t h a t s o m e t i m e i n – t o w a rd s t h e e n d J u n e i f I a m n o t
m i st a k e n .
J u l y.

She had a meeting with the legal team on the 9

T h e r e m a y b e so m e i s s u e s a b o u t h o w s h e f e l t t re a t e d

in that meeting but what has been said and I think what is
common

c a u se

is

that

she

came

to

that

meeting

only

p r e p a re d t o d e a l w i t h o n e a ff i d a vi t n a m e l y t h a t o f M r B o t e s
a n d n o t a l l t h e o t h e r s.

We p u t a d a y a si d e o n F ri d a y –

F ri d a y t h e 2 4 t h f o r t h e h e a ri n g o f h e r e vi d e n c e . We l o st t h a t
d a y.
10

We h a d t o s h i f t o t h e r w i t n e s s e s i n o r d e r t o h e a r h e r

e vi d e n c e t o d a y.
a n o t h e r d a y.

If I grant her application it means we lose

We d o n o t h a v e a l o t o f t i m e a s a c o m m i s si o n .

We a r e o p e ra t i n g u n d e r a c o u rt o rd e r t h a t s a y s w e m u st
f i n i s h o u r w o r k w i t h i n a c e rt a i n t i m e .
p e o p l e w h o m u st st i l l t e st i f y.
s e r i o u s p r o b l e m s.

T h e r e a re m a n y o t h e r

There is – there are really

N o w i t i s v e r y d i ff i c u l t f o r m e t o s e e t h a t

o n w h a t yo u h a v e su b m i t t e d t h e r e i s a g o o d r e a s o n f o r
p o st p o n e m e n t i n t h e l i g h t o f a l l o f t h e se t h i n g s t h a t I a m
s a yi n g .

I a m p u t t i n g t o y o u w h a t i s i n m y m i n d f o r yo u t o

a d d r e s s i f t h e r e i s a n yt h i n g y o u w i s h t o s a y o t h e r t h a n w h a t
20

y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e t o s a y.
ADV

NXASANA:

b a c kg r o u n d .

Chair

thank

you

for

g i vi n g

me

that

Chair as I have indicated that I have taken

t e n t a t i v e i n st ru ct i o n s I w i l l t r y m y b e st t o r e s p o n d t o s o m e o f
the issues that the Chairperson has raised. Chair one of the
things that have been…
Page 12 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:
something else.

Oh

I

am

s o rr y

let

me

also

mention

I f I re c a l l c o r r e ct l y h e r c o u n s e l o n F ri d a y

t h e 2 4 t h i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n u n d e rt a ki n g o n h e r p a rt
t o f i l e a ff i d a vi t s o r a n a ff i d a v i t b y t h e e n d o f t h i s p a st w e e k
a n d o f c o u r s e t h e a p p l i ca t i o n t h a t w a s l o d g e d o n – o n
T h u r s d a y l a st w e e k a s k e d f o r t i m e t o f i l e t h e a ff i d a vi t s t o d a y
a n d I w a s h o p i n g t h a t t h i s m o rn i n g o n e w o u l d b e t o l d t h e
a ff i d a vi t s a r e r e a d y – a r e a v a i l a b l e b u t e v e n i f t h e y a r e n o t
a v a i l a b l e I t h i n k c e rt a i n l y f r o m m y s i d e a n d I t h i n k t h e s a m e
10

p o si t i o n w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t w e c a n n o t
p r o c e e d a n d I ca n n o t p r o c e e d a n d h e a r e vi d e n c e a n d s h e
c a n b e q u e st i o n e d o n t h e v a ri o u s m a t t e r s.

The matters on

w h i c h s h e w o u l d b e q u e st i o n e d a r e l a r g e l y f a ct u a l . I a m n o t
– I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e r e i s a n y l e g a l co m p l e x i s s u e
t h a t a ri s e s. T h e y a r e l a r g e l y f a ct u a l m a t t e r s.
ADV NXASANA: Chair thank you. I hear you. But Chair my
i n st r u ct i o n s a r e t h a t t h e r e w e r e – t h e r e w a s a p e ri o d o f
l o c k d o w n t h a t a l s o m u st b e t a k e n i n t o c o n si d e r a t i o n .

Also,

cl i e n t i s a j u d g e s h e i s a l l o c a t e d w o r k a n d s h e h a s t o a t t e n d
20

t o a l l t h e s e l i t i g a t i o n s.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l y o u s e e t h e – t h e q u e st i o n o f b e i n g a

j u d g e i s – i t s i m p o rt a n c e a s I s e e i t r e l a t e s t o w h e n s h e i s
going

to

be

r e q u i re d

to

appear

before

the

c o m m i s si o n

b e ca u s e s h e c o u l d b e – i t c o u l d b e a d a t e t h a t o n w h i c h s h e
i s s u p p o s e d t o b e i n co u rt a n d t h e r e a re o t h e r p e o p l e w h o
Page 13 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
w o u l d h a v e b e e n re a d y t o a p p e a r b e f o r e h e r a n d t h e r e w o u l d
b e l a w y e r s, t h e y w o u l d b e c o st f o r p e o p l e a n d i t i s – so i t i s
t h a t p u b l i c i n t e r e s t p a rt t h a t I t h i n k i s i m p o rt a n t .
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n c e – o n c e y o u a r e n o t t a l ki n g a b o u t t h a t
y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t p r e p a ri n g a ff i d a vi t s.

I do not see why

h e r s i t u a t i o n – h e r w o r k c o m m i t m e n t s a r e a n y d i ff e r e n t f r o m
a n yo n e e l se w h o i s n o t a j u d g e w h o h a s – w h o a l s o h a s w o r k
c o m m i t m e n t s.
10

E v e r y b o d y m a ke s t i m e t o – t o d o w h a t t h e y

need to do. There are lots of people who are not judges who
are very busy with whatever they do but when they – they
a r e r e q u i r e d t o p r e p a r e a ff i d a vi t s t h e y p r e p a r e a ff i d a v i t s.
ADV NXASANA:

C h a i r p e r h a p s f o r t h e sa k e o f cl a r i t y a n d

p r o g r e s s c a n I – c a n I a s k – c a n I r e q u e st t h a t cl i e n t
e x p l a i n s h e r se l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, n o t h a t i s f i n e .
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We c a n d o t h a t . We l l I t h i n k i f sh e i s g o i n g
t o e x p l a i n h e r s e l f i t se e m s t o m e , s h e w o u l d h a v e t o d o t h a t
20

u n d e r o a t h b e c a u s e y o u a r e h e r l a w y e r.

I do not see that

s h e ca n …
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s n o t h a t i s f i n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Represent herself while you are here.
ADV NXASANA: No it is fine.
CHAIRPERSON:

So – so if – but if she does that I – under
Page 14 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
o a t h t h a t i s d i ff e r e n t .
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that fine?
A D V N X A S A N A : I t i s f i n e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a l ri g h t .

Thank you.

Will you please

a d m i n i st e r t h e o a t h o r a ff i rm a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e st a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r t h e r e c o r d ?
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ti n t s w a l o A n n a h M a k h u b e l e .
REGISTRAR:
10

Do you have any objection to taking the

prescribed oath?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: None at all.
REGISTRAR:

Do you consider the oath to be binding on

your conscience?
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s .
REGISTRAR:

Do you swear that the evidence you will give

will be the truth; the whole truth and nothing else but the
t r u t h ; i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e
God.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: So help me God.
20

REGISTRAR: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y b e s e a t e d .
T I N T S WA L O A N N A H M A K H U B E L E [ d . s . s . ]
CHAIRPERSON:

If

yo u

are

going

to

be

c o m f o rt a b l e

re m o vi n g t h e m a s k t o e n a b l e y o u t o b e h e a rd , t h a t i s f i n e . I f
y o u a r e n o t c o m f o rt a b l e w i t h t h a t , w e j u st n e e d t o m a k e s u r e
Page 15 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
w e c a n h e a r y o u . W h a t e v e r y o u a r e c o m f o rt a b l e w i t h .
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
w i t h a l o n g b e a k.

We l l , C h a i r p e r s o n t h e m a s k i s m a d e

S o I s h o u l d b e a b l e t o s p e a k.

So if you

c a n h e a r m e p r o p e r l y, I r a t h e r k e e p i t o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. N o , n o , n o . T h a t i s f i n e . A s l o n g a s I
h e a r yo u , t h a t i s f i n e . I t h i n k s o m e b o d y m u st c h e c k w i t h t h e
t ra n s c ri b e r s i f t h e y c a n h e a r.
S T E N O G R A P H E R : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

I

th i n k

j u st

say

something

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

...then they will tell me. They will indicate

i f t h e y c a n h e a r y o u p r o p e rl y.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : C a n y o u h e a r m e e ve r y b o d y ?
S T E N O G R A P H E R : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
S T E N O G R A P H E R : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s m u ff l i n g , t h e s o u n d .
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Chairperson.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
Nxasana.

Okay thank you.

Thank you.

Okay Mr

We l l , J u d g e M a k h u b e l e , yo u r co u n s e l s a y s i t i s

better that you explain yourself, to address some of these
issues that I have raised.

Yo u h a ve h e a r d w h a t I h a v e

ra i se d , i s i t n o t ?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

C h a i r p e r s o n , I h a v e a ct u a l l y b e e n
Page 16 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
h a n d i n g n o t e s t o m y a t t o r n e y.

Yo u p r o b a b l y r e a l i s e t h a t

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a w t h a t , y e s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I w a s g e t t i n g r e st l e s s a n d I w a s, a t

some point, I raised my hand and I... at some point I wanted
t o st a n d u p .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, I did not see you raise your hand.

Ye s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
10

B e ca u s e I re a l i s e d so m e t h i n g i s

about to repeat itself here.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

M y a t t o r n e y s. . . m y s e n i o r c o u n s e l

a r e v e r y c o m p e t e n t , a s i n M r S h a k o a n e , s e n i o r c o u n se l o f
m a n y y e a r s, a p p e a r e d o n m y b e h a l f o n 2 4 J u l y.
U n d e r si m i l a r ci r c u m st a n c e s a s M r N x a sa n a h e r e , n o t
e v e n h a vi n g h a d o n e m i n u t e e y e . . . p h y si c a l o r e y e - c o n t a ct
communication with me.
And although I was at home... I was not watching the
p r o c e e d i n g s.
20

about

it.

M y f a m i l y w a s.

And

b e ca u s e

me

A n d I r e a d a l o t o f re p o rt s
and

him,

we

never

had

a

c o n su l t a t i o n . T h e re w e r e a l o t o f f a ct u a l i n a c c u r a ci e s .
A n d I se e i t h a p p e n i n g w h e n C h a i r p e r s o n t ri e s t o g e t
i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I o n l y c a n g i v e t o t h i s C o m m i s si o n .

Mr

S h a k o a n e a n d m y a t t o rn e y s, p r e vi o u s a t t o r n e y s, a c o m p e t e n t
b l a c k l a w f i r m w e r e s e ri o u sl y e m b a r ra s s e d o n 2 4 J u l y.
Page 17 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
D e s p i t e t h e i r p r o t e st m a c h i n e s, t h a t t h e y h a v e n o t h a d a
c o n su l t a t i o n w i t h m e b u t t h e y h a d t o r e p re s e n t m e u n d e r
t h o se ci r c u m st a n c e s.
A n d y o u c a n i m a g i n e w h a t t h a t d o e s t o o n e ’s s e l f c o n f i d e n c e a n d o n e ’s l a w f i r m b e c a u se t h e m e d i a , t h e p u b l i c
h a d a g o a t t h e m , t a ki n g i n t o a c c o u n t t h e i r i n a b i l i t y t o
re p r e s e n t

me

p ro p e rl y

because

they

did

not

have

a

c o n su l t a t i o n w i t h m e .
S o w h e n I s a y a re p e a t , I se e M r N x a s a n a i s t r yi n g t o
10

p h o n e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Why did you not have a consultation with

them?
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

e x p l a i n e d C h a i r p e r so n .

I

will

explain.

I

h a ve

a l re a d y

So I... Mr Nxasana and I, when we

talked, I said I have already lodged an application and if I
m u st d e a l w i t h t h a t a p p l i c a t i o n , I w i l l d e a l w i t h i t m y s e l f
today Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
20

A ct u a l l y, I d o n o t w a n t t o g i v e i t

w i t h o u t a n s w e ri n g t h e q u e st i o n s t h a t y o u h a v e r a i s e d i n m y
a b se n c e o n 2 4 J u l y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

W h a t e v e r c o n t e xt , w h e t h e r i t w i l l b e

f o r y o u t o c o n si d e r t h e a p p l i c a t i o n b u t si m p l y m a d e m e t o
e x p l a i n , s o t h a t w h e n s o m e o n e r e p re s e n t s m e a n d p u t i t a s
Page 18 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
a n a p p l i c a t i o n , t h e C h a i r p e r s o n s h o u l d u n d e r st a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

I

have

no...

I

am

not...

the

a l l e g a t i o n s a g a i n st m e r e l a t i n g t o o n e i s s u e o f P R A S A , I
h a ve n o p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t .

Chair has already indicated in

m y a ff i d a v i t w h e n I h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e e vi d e n c e o f A d v o ca t e
B o t e s, I h a v e a l r e a d y t o u c h e d o n w h a t a ct u a l l y h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : S o I . . . t h a t i s m y v e r si o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And I have already said that is my

version.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

S o f o r a l l i n t e n s e a n d p u r p o s e s.

My

v e r s i o n i s a l re a d y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a l r e a d y. . . o k a y.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : I t i s a l r e a d y b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
20

I t m a y b e b e ca u s e C h a i r I h a ve n o t

h a d si g h t o f t h e t ra n s c ri p t o f t h e e vi d e n ce o f M s N g o y e a n d
Mr Dingiswayo. I will need to supplement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

A n d o b vi o u sl y w i t h t h e a s s i s t a n ce o f

m y l e g a l t e a m . S o I a m n o t s c a r e d o f t h o s e a l l e g a t i o n s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y.
Page 19 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But what I am scared of Chairperson

i s t h e p e r ce p t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n c r e a t e d t h a t I a m t h i s
a r r o g a n t p e r s o n , d i sr e s p e ct f u l , r e f u si n g t o w o r k w i t h t h e
C o m m i s si o n .
the

matter

C h a i rp e r s o n , i f y o u h a ve r e a d m y a ff i d a vi t i n
o f A d v o ca t e

B o t e s,

or

r a t h e r,

my

complaint

a g a i n st A d v o ca t e B o t e s. I e v e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, I h a v e re a d i t . J a .
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: I have indicated that even before this
C o m m i s si o n s a t , o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s a g a i n st m e , t h a t i s
10

Unite

Behind,

Achmat.

which

is going

to

be

represented

T h e y h a d a l r e a d y st a rt e d a c a m p a i g n .

g i v e n m e a n a m e ‘ st a t e c a p t u r e j u d g e ”.
“ st a t e

capture

j u d g e ”,

they

a re

not

by

Mr

They have

S o w h e n t h e y s a y,
r e f e r ri n g

to

yo u

C h a i r p e r s o n . T h e y a r e r e f e rr i n g t o m e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

T h e y g e n e r a t e d a l o t o f a rt i c l e s

t h r o u g h o n e o f t h e i r o n l i n e p u b l i c a t i o n s, f i r st b o o k, P e t e r
and...

E v e n b e f o r e y o u h a d y o u r f i r st si t t i n g ca l l i n g m e

“ st a t e c a p t u r e j u d g e ”.
20

S o I . . . I a m . . . t h e s e w o rd s s ca r e s m e C h a i r p e r s o n .
perception

that

it

is

going

out

there

about

who

The
I

am

Chairperson.
S o i n t h e a ff i d a vi t t h a t I h a v e f i l e d , I w i l l a n s w e r a l l y o u r
q u e st i o n s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e i s s u e s t h a t y o u h a v e r a i s e d w i t h
m y e r st w h i l e

senior counsel

which

Page 20 of 108

he

was not

able to

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
a rt i c u l a t e .
A n d C h a i r p e r s o n , I w i l l d e m o n st r a t e b e f o r e y o u t h a t , o n e
day when I

w a s l i st e n i n g o r w a t c h i n g t h e

Chairperson

you

were

telling

p ro c e e d i n g s,

so m e b o d y

whatever

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e g o e s o u t , i t g o e s w i t h y o u r. . . yo u m a y n o t b e
si g n i n g i t b u t y o u a r e a w a re o f e v e r yt h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y. Ju st r e p e a t t h a t l a st s e n t e n c e .
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

That

you

are

aware

of

e ve r y

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t st a n d o u t t o t h e w i t n e s s e s o r o u t si d e r s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
aware

of

all

C o m m i s si o n .

N o , yo u m u st h a v e m i s h e a r d .
correspondence

that

goes

I am not

out

of

the

I f I w a s t o b e a w a re o f a l l o f i t , I w o u l d n o t

h a ve t i m e t o d o a n yt h i n g .
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : We l l . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e r e i s, h o w e v e r, c o r r e sp o n d e n c e t h a t I

s e e , f o r e xa m p l e , w h e n t h e f o r m e r p re s i d e n t a p p e a re d b e f o r e
this

C o m m i s si o n ,

I

did

announce

that

the

s p e ci f i c

correspondence that had been addressed to him in which he,
t h r o u g h h i s l a w y e r s, r e s p o n d e d i n a c e rt a i n w a y, I d i d s a y
20

that

I

was

therefore,

if

responsible
they

had

for

that

a n yb o d y

to

co r r e sp o n d e n c e
c ri t i ci s e

they

and

should

c ri t i ci s e m e .
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : We l l , I a m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

But

otherwise,

t h e re

is

a

lot

of

correspondence that goes out without me seeing it but I do
Page 21 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
s e e so m e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h e n t h e r e i s a r e a s o n f o r m e t o
see it.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
to.

We l l , t h e r e i s o n e e m a i l I w i l l r e f e r

I t i s m a y b e s o m e 2 9 J u n e f ro m t h e a ct i n g S e cr e t a r y o f

t h e C o m m i s si o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: ...to me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
10

A n d w h e n I c o m p l a i n e d a b o u t s h o rt

n o t i ce o f h e a ri n g s a n d . . . t h e e vi d e n c e t h a t I w i l l p r e s e n t t o
y o u C h a i r p e r so n w i l l sh o w yo u t h e ki n d o f n o t i c e s I h a v e
b e e n g i v e n . T h e t i m e p e ri o d s.
T h e n sh e r e s p o n d . . . i n t h a t ca s e , I w a s g i v e n . . . i n t h e
c a s e o f A d v o ca t e B o t e s, t h e n o t i c e c a m e t o m e o f t h e
h e a ri n g o n t w e n t y. . . 2 8 o r 2 9 J u n e , h e w a s d u e t o t e st i f y o n
t h e 1 s t o f J u l y.
Yo u t e l l m e C h a i r p e r s o n i f t h a t i s s u ff i ci e n t n o t i c e ? A n d
with... and same with Mr Mogashoa.

I do not know if he

e n d e d u p t e st i f yi n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a s n o t t e st i f i e d y e t .
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
b e f o r e h i s t e st i m o n y.

B u t t h e n o t i c e , I re c e i v e d a d a y

S o w h e n I c o m p l a i n e d a b o u t t h e s h o rt

n o t i ce , t h e a ct i n g se c r e t a r y re p l i e d t o m y e m a i l a n d t h e n
t h e y w e r e t a l ki n g a m o n g st t h e m s e l v e s a s a t e a m .
B u t I w a s c o p i e d i n t h a t e m a i l , w h e r e sh e w a s s a yi n g
Page 22 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
t h e r e h a s b e e n a n i n st r u ct i o n t h a t t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m
m e s h o u l d b e d i r e ct e d t o y o u C h a i r p e r s o n t o d e a l w i t h .
S o t h a t i s o n l y. . . m a y b e t h r e e w e e k s. Th r e e w e e k s a g o .
But

throughout

I

have

been

communicating

with

the

C o m m i s si o n w i t h a l m o st e v e r y b o d y a n d a n y b o d y.
A n d a t s o m e p o i n t , I w i l l s h o w y o u , o n e w o u l d n o t kn o w
w h a t t h e o t h e r o n e h a s a l r e a d y w ri t t e n t o m e a b o u t . A n d s o I
i n t e n d t o s h o w yo u C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t I h e a r d o n 2 4 J u l y, y o u
a c k n o w l e d g e d t h a t I a m n o t a n o r d i n a r y. . .
10

I am Judge Makhubele.

I a m j u st a si m p l e g i rl b u t I

o c c u p y t h e p o si t i o n o f a j u d g e . I a m n o t a n o r d i n a r y p e r s o n .
A n d t h e n I . . . b e c a u s e yo u r r u l e s d o n o t . . .
I t h i n k t h e a rg u m e n t w i l l b e , yo u r r u l e s. . . y o u d i d n o t
a n t i ci p a t e t o b e d e a l i n g w i t h j u d g e s o r p e o p l e w h o w i l l b e
o c c u p y i n g h i g h o ff i c e s w o u l d a p p e a r b e f o r e y o u b u t t h e y d o
n o t m a k e p r o vi si o n .
B u t I t h e n p o i n t e d o u t t o t h e C o m m i s si o n .

I will show

y o u t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e C h a i rp e r s o n t h a t . . .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
20

J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : T h e cl o s e st t o t h a t , I t h i n k s h o u l d b e
a p p l i e d , i s t h e S u p e ri o r C o u rt s A ct b e ca u s e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

But hang on Judge Makhubele.

We n e e d

t o . . . t h e r e i s a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t t h a t Mr
Nxasana has moved.

We n e e d t o a n a l y se t h a t .

Now I

u n d e r st o o d t h a t M r N x a s a n a w i s h e d y o u t o cl a ri f y c e rt a i n
Page 23 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
matters with regard to that application.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

We l l , C h a i r p e r s o n w h a t I r e a l i s e d i s

that ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

y o u b u t I a m s o r r y.

I a m s o rr y.

I am interrupting

I u n d e r st a n d f ro m w h a t y o u . . . f r o m p a rt

o f w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t y o u a r e s a yi n g a s f a r a s d e a l i n g
w i t h a l l e g a t i o n s a g a i n st y o u r e l a t i n g t o yo u r r o l e a t P R A S A ,
you do not have a problem with that.

D i d I u n d e r st a n d y o u

c o r r e ct l y ?
10

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I sa i d . . . b e c a u s e w h e n I . . . I n e v e r

w h e n Mi s s I n t e rp r e t e r. . . yo u r i n t e r a ct i o n w i t h M r N x a s a n a , I
thought

you

are

sa y i n g

I

have

not...

I

h a ve

had

this

c o m p l a i n t f o r l o n g . I h a v e n o t g i ve n a v e r s i o n . A n d a l l I a m
s a yi n g i s, I h a v e g i v e n a ve r si o n .

It may not been a

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

It

may

not

be

in

a

form

that

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

It might not be as full as you would have

liked.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s, ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : S o I h a v e g i v e n a v e r si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, s o y o u h a v e g i ve n a v e r si o n ?
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s.
Page 24 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:

A m I t o u n d e r st a n d t h a t a s f a r a s y o u a re

c o n ce r n e d t h a t t h e r e m i g h t n o t b e m u c h t o a d d t o t h a t
version?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I said... it is in my application.

R e m e m b e r, I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t e v e r y o u h a ve s a i d .
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

. . . I h a v e n o t . . . I h a ve . . . I d i d n o t

a t t e n d t h e h e a ri n g s o f M s N g o y e a n d M r D i n g i s w a y o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
10

JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

My

former

attorneys

r e q u e st e d

t ra n s c ri p t s. T h e y h a ve n o t b e e n g i v e n t h o s e t r a n s c ri p t s. S o
I m a y w a n t t o a d d w h e n I r e ce i ve t h o s e t r a n s cri p t s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

In the application that I am going to

m o v e , i f C h a i r s a y s I m u st m o v e i t , I h a v e m a d e t h a t re q u e st
t h a t . . . w i t h r e g a r d t o M s N g o ye a n d M r D i n g i s w a y o b e c a u s e
t h e y a r e t h e o n l y d i re ct w i t n e s s e s t h a t . . . f o r w h a t h a p p e n e d
at PRASA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I w o u l d w a n t t o h a ve si g h t o f t h e i r

e vi d e n c e a n d t h e n I a d d m y ve r si o n w h i c h , o b vi o u sl y, I h a v e
t o c o n f i rm . I t w a s i n a st a t e . . . i t i s n o t i n a s w o r n st a t e m e n t .
I t i s i n a st a t e m e n t t h a t I s u b m i t t e d a t t h e P r e t o ri a B a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

S o I w i l l h a v e t o t h e n c o n f i rm t h a t
Page 25 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
st a t e m e n t a n d t h e n a d d w h a t I n e e d t o a d d . A n d a l s o , i n t h e
a p p l i ca t i o n I h a v e a l s o i n d i ca t e d t h e r e , t h e r e a re c e rt a i n
i n v e st i g a t i o n s t h a t w e r e c o n d u ct e d b y. . . ce rt a i n l y, l e t m e n o t
s p e a k a b o u t A d v o c a t e B o t e s’ d e vi c e s b e c a u se I h a v e a l r e a d y
re q u e st e d

that

information

which

I

have

not

ye t

been

p r o vi d e d w i t h .
B u t o n m y p a rt , o n t h e d a y w h e n I h a v e c o n s u l t e d w i t h
the

legal

team,

a

forensic

i n v e st i g a t o r

ca m e

for

the

c o n su l t a t i o n a n d h e t o o k m y d e t a i l s, m y I D n u m b e r, m y ce l l
10

n u m b e r.
A n d h e w a s g o i n g t o r e q u e st c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s f o r a
s p e ci f i c p e ri o d .

R e m e m b e r w i t h . . . b e t w e e n m e a n d m i st e r. . .

a n d A d v o ca t e B o t e s, t h e i s s u e i s w h o c a l l e d w h o .

That is

v e r y i m p o rt a n t . I t m a y s o u n d t ri vi a l b u t i t i s v e r y i m p o rt a n t .
S o w e p r o vi d e d t h e i n v e st i g a t o r w i t h t h a t i n f o rm a t i o n .
T h a t w a s o n t h e 9 t h o f Ju l y.

To d a y i s t h e 3 r d o f A u g u st .

I

w a s i n f o r m e d i t t a k e s f o u r d a y s.
So in the application that I have made, I have made that
re q u e st t h a t I n e e d t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n .
20

So those are things

t h a t I m a y w a n t t o s u p p l e m e n t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : To . . . y e s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
ci r c u m st a n c e s

that

...to the... but with regard to the

b ri n g s

me

before

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 26 of 108

you

Chairperson

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : I h a v e a l r e a d y g i ve n a v e r si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u . . . y e s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: I have.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , t h a t i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

S o w h a t I w a s s a yi n g i s t h a t w h e n

C h a i r p e r s o n a s k e d M r N x a s a n a a b o u t m y c o m m i t m e n t s, m y
f a i l u r e s. . . C a n I a n s w e r ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : B e c a u s e h e d o e s n o t k n o w.
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

I

saw

him

for

the

f i r st

time

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d h e s a i d s o t o o . [ l a u g h s]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

H e f l e w f r o m . . . w e sp o k e . . . w e h a v e

b e e n s p e a ki n g si n c e m a y b e F ri d a y o r T h u r s d a y e v e n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
t h a t h e m u st a p p e a r.

B u t t h e n y e st e r d a y, t h e n w e a g r e e d
T h e n h e f l e w o v e r.

I do not... we met

h e r e a t t h e r e ce p t i o n . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

. . . a s i n si d e i n C h a i rp e r s o n .

And

C h a i r p e r s o n , m a y I j u st r e m i n d C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t i t i s n o t j u st
about

legal

representation.

It

is

about

e ff i ci e n t

re p r e s e n t a t i o n b e c a u se w h e n m y l e g a l t e a m d o e s n o t h a v e a
c h a n c e t o e v e n t a l k t o m e f o r a d a y o r 3 0 -m i n u t e s t o p u t
Page 27 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
s o m e t h i n g t o a s si st m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

B u t t h a t i s b e c a u se yo u i n st ru ct e d

them late.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Ye s, b u t a l s o C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e o t h e r

t h i n g I w a n t t o c o r r e ct i s, t h e p r e vi o u s a t t o r n e y s. . . i f I ca n
t a k e y o u t h r o u g h h o w t h e y. . . t h e i r . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] i n m y m a t t e r.
In

February

they

have

dealt

with

my

m a t t e r,

j u st

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a l re a d y d e a l i n g w i t h t h e
JCC matter on my behalf.
10

S o t h e y re p l i e d t o o n e c o r re s p o n d e n ce .

And that is on

t h e 2 4 t h o f F e b r u a r y w h e n I f i r s t re c e i v e d t h e R u l e 3 . 3
Notice.
T h e f i r st R u l e 3 . 3 . N o t i ce s ca m e , I t h i n k, o n t h e 2 1 s t ,
2 2 n d F e b r u a r y o f t h i s ye a r. S o t h e s e a t t o r n e y s, b e c a u s e t h e y
w e re a l r e a d y a s si st i n g w i t h t h e J C C m a t t e r, t h e y t h e n re p l i e d
t o t h o s e n o t i ce s.
A n d t h e y i n d i ca t e d , ri g h t f ro m t h e b e g i n n i n g , t h a t t h e
c o u n s e l t h a t i s a s si st i n g m e a t t h e J C C i s c o n f l i ct e d b e ca u s e
he is on retainer with the PRASA.
20

S o h e , o b vi o u sl y, f r o m a n e t h i c a l p o i n t o f vi e w, h e
c a n n o t b e a p p e a ri n g b e f o r e m e . . . t o a s si st m e i n t h a t m a t t e r
b e ca u s e t h e s a m e c o m p l a i n a n t s a r e h i s b ri e f i n g cl i e n t s.
S o t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f F e b ru a r y C h a i r p e r so n . A n d t h e n
I e x p l a i n e d t h a t t h e n . . . w e t h e n h a d a l o t o f e x ch a n g e w i t h
t h e s e c r e t a ri a t .
Page 28 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
I t h e n a p p e a r e d b e f o r e t h e J C C j u st b e f o r e N a t i o n a l
L o c kd o w n .

And then there was National Lockdown on the

30th of March.

A s M r N x a s a n a s a y s, t h a t p e ri o d m u st b e

t a k e n i n t o a c co u n t .
I t h a d o n l y b e e n a b o u t t h r e e w e e k s si n ce I w a s s e r v e d
with

the

Rule

3.3

N o t i c e s.

Then

there

was

National

L o c kd o w n f r o m 3 0 M a r c h w h e r e n o o n e c o u l d a n yt h i n g a n d
t h e n w h e n y o u r e s u m e d C h a i r p e r s o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

even

Level

5

We l l , a l o t o f w o r k c o u l d b e d o n e d u r i n g . . .

and

Level

without meeting people.

4

Lockdown,

u si n g

technology

We , o u r s e l v e s, i n t h e C o m m i s si o n ,

y o u k n o w, d i d q u i t e a l o t o f w o r k. P e o p l e c o u l d b e c o n s u l t e d
vi rt u a l l y a n d e m a i l s c o u l d b e e x c h a n g e d .

All of that.

So a

l o t o f w o r k c o u l d b e d o n e w i t h o u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : We l l . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . p h y si c a l l y m e e t i n g w i t h p e o p l e .
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I a g re e f u l l y C h a i r b e c a u s e w e h a v e

been

re s e a r c h

si t t i n g .

I

did

duty

j u st

after

National

L o c kd o w n a n d t h e n t h a t i s w h e n w e w e r e st a rt i n g w i t h t h i s
20

M S t e a m s b e ca u s e w e a l r e a d y i n t h e d i g i t a l p l a t f o r m .
B u t w h a t I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t i s f o r m e t o c o n s u l t . . . t o
a p p o i n t a n d c o n s u l t a n a t t o r n e y u n d e r L e ve l 5 .

That was

i m p o s si b l e C h a i rp e r s o n .
A n d I d i d i n d i c a t e t o t h e C o m m i s si o n b e c a u s e t h e y w r o t e
t o m e s o m e t i m e i n A p r i l a n d t h e n I s a i d a s s o o n a s. . . y o u w i l l
Page 29 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
s e e f r o m t h e p a p e r s, o n e o f t h e q u e st i o n s I a s k e d t h e m f o r
re a s s u r a n c e w a s:

“P l e a se , i f y o u g e t a d e si g n a t i o n a s a n

e s s e n t i a l s e r vi c e , l e t m e kn o w b e c a u se I m a y u s e t h a t t o
t ra v e l t o c o n s u l t w i t h m y a t t o r n e y s ”.
I did ask them that Chairperson.

I w i l l s h o w yo u t h e

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t t h e ri g h t t i m e . A n d t h e n w e . . . t h e n t h e r e
w e re o t h e r i s s u e s .
Then

when

re s u m e d .
10

re c e i v e d

you

r e su m e d ,

you

announced

you

h a ve

A n d t h e n . . . I t h e n . . . t h a t i s w h e n e n d o f Ma y, I
those

n o t i ce s

about

A d v o ca t e

Botes

and

Mr

Mogashoa.
A n d I t h e n w r o t e t h e C o m m i s si o n a n d sa i d . . . i t m a y n o t
h a ve b e e n i m m e d i a t e l y.
b e ca u s e

it

came

in

a

I explained why not immediately
week

when

I

was

doing

urgent

a p p l i ca t i o n s. Tw o w e e k s.
T h e n w h e n I f i n i s h e d , I t h e n w r o t e t o t h e C o m m i s si o n t o
s a y I h a v e r e a d t h e a ff i d a vi t o f A d v o c a t e s B o t e s a n d M r
M o g a s h o a a n d I t h i n k I w a n t t o g e t o n w i t h t h i s m a t t e r.
I . . . ca n y o u p l e a s e l e t t h e l e g a l t e a m g e t i n t o u c h w i t h
20

me?

A n d b e c a u s e i n i t i a l l y I h a d r a i s e d a l o t o f o b j e ct i o n s.

C a n I . . . I . . . w h a t M r B o t e s s a y s h e re n o w r e q u i re s m e t o a ct
i m m e d i a t e l y.
T h e n I . . . t h a t i s w h e n I w ro t e t h e l e t t e r o f 2 3 J u n e
Chairperson.

And then I then dealt with the issue of how I

w a s a p p r o a ch e d b y t h e l e g a l t e a m .
Page 30 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
A n d t h e n t h e a g re e m e n t s w e r e a c h e d b u t i n b e t w e e n t w o
t h r e e d a y s b e f o r e m i st e r. . . A d v o c a t e B o t e s t e st i f i e d , I w a s
t h e n t o l d h e w a s t e st i f yi n g a n d w h i c h w a s t h e n i m p o s si b l e .
Even

before

Chairperson,

the

he

legal

came

to

team,

as

t e st i f i e d .

I

have

But

commented

then

I

said

I

re q u e st e d l e a v e f ro m J P M l a m b o t h a t I n e e d t o f i l e t h i s
a ff i d a vi t .
A n d h e g a v e m e d a y s o ff C h a i r p e r s o n a n d I f i l e d t h i s.
S o i t i s n o t t ru e .
10

B e c a u s e I s e e t h e s e t h i n g s a re b e i n g

re p o rt e d t h a t I n e v e r d i d a n yt h i n g .

I f i l e d a n a ff i d a vi t j u st a

d a y b e f o re A d v o c a t e B o t e s t e st i f i e d .
And then the arrangement was I will consult with the
l e g a l t e a m w h o p r e p a r e d t h e a ff i d a v i t f o r t h e o t h e r w i t n e s se s
b e ca u s e t h a t o n e o f M r B o t e s w a s s p e ci f i c t o h i m .
And

in

re q u e st t h a t :

my

letter

Chairperson,

I

made

r e q u e st . . .

“C a n I p l e a s e t e st i f y d u ri n g r e s e s ? ”

a

Because

w e w e r e a p p r o a c h i n g r e s e s.
T h e l e t t e r i s v e r y cl e a r.

I said:

“ C a n I t e st i f y o n t h e

e vi d e n c e o f A d v o c a t e B o t e s b e c a u s e d u ri n g Ju n e re s e s. . . ? ”
20

A n d t h e n . . . w e l l , t h e C o m m i s si o n w i l l e x p l a i n w h y t h e n
e v e n b e f o r e I c o n s u l t e d w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m , t h e n t h e y sa i d . . .
they then set the date for the 24th.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

So

Chairperson,

I

am

t r yi n g

e x p l a i n t h a t t h e r e i s a l o t o f t h i n g s t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 31 of 108

to

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

...has

been

sa i d

about

me

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : . . . t h a t I f e e l I a m n o t l e a vi n g w e l l . I f
I y o u s a y I m u st l e a ve , I w i l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

B u t I [ l a u g h s] . . . I w o u l d n o t w a n t t o

l e a v e t h i s C o m m i s si o n w i t h o u t d e a l i n g . . .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

B u t C h a i r p e r s o n , I f i l e d a n a ff i d a vi t .

It is 47-pages long.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, I kn o w. I h a d t o r e a d a l l 4 7 -p a g e s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And I... it is a sequence and I was

a n s w e ri n g e a ch a n d e ve r y q u e st i o n t h a t I h a v e b e e n t o l d I
m u st

respond

to.

The

purpose

of

attaching

the

correspondence was to show the sequence and the issues
t h a t w e r e b e i n g d i s c u s s e d . A n d t h e n a g a i n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t , o f co u r s e , i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

JUDGE MAKHUBELE: ...I was asked to explain why I pulled
o u t o f t h e co n s u l t a t i o n w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d I t o o k t i m e t o
re s p o n d t o . . . t o a n s w e r y o u C h a i rp e r s o n .

I t i s f o r yo u

C h a i r p e r s o n t o d e ci d e w h e t h e r m y e x p l a n a t i o n m a k e s s e n se
or not.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
Page 32 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : A n d I w a s. . . o r t h e re a r e o t h e r t h i n g s
I w a s a s ke d t o a d d r e s s a n d I d i d b u t C h a i r p e r s o n t h e l e g a l
t e a m a n s w e r e d m y a ff i d a vi t o n F r i d a y.

I r e ce i ve d i t F ri d a y

morning.
CHAIRPERSON:
re s p o n d e d . . .

I

I t h i n k i t w a s. . . i t w a s. . . w e l l , I t h i n k t h e y
do

not

know

when

they

responded

but

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ja , b u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . y o u r a ff i d a v i t c a m e o n T h u r s d a y, I t h i n k.
10

J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : I w i l l a l s o t e l l y o u t h e p r e s su re t h a t I
h a d t o f i n a l i s e t h a t a ff i d a vi t b e c a u s e m y a t t o rn e y s l e t m e
down.

R e m e m b e r, I w a s d o i n g o p p o s e d r o l l l a st w e e k.

w e w e re . . . w e w o u l d b e co n s u l t i n g b y t e l e p h o n e .

So

Draft...

sending a draft for them to settle and then them bringing it
back to me and then me waiting.
B u t i t w a s cl e a r t h a t w e w e re n o t g o i n g t o b e a b l e t o f i l e
t h e st a t e m e n t s, t h e s w o r n st a t e m e n t s.

So what we were

t r yi n g

that

to

do

was

to

tell

Chairperson

time...

those

t i m e f r a m e s a r e i m p o s si b l e t o c o m p l y w i t h , h a vi n g r e g a r d t o
20

t h e f a ct t h a t I w a s si t t i n g i n a n o p p o se d r o l l a n d I o n l y h a d
t h r e e d a y s.
A n d t h e o p p o s e d ro l l r u n s f o r a w e e k C h a i r p e r s o n .

So

b y s i x o ’ cl o c k o n t h e d u e d a t e , m y a t t o r n e y s t h e n t o l d m e
t h a t : “ L o o k, J u d g e w e t h i n k. . . ” I d o n o t k n o w i f t hi s. . . w h a t I
a m sa y i n g f a l l s w i t h i n a p ri vi l e g e d a t t o r n e y/ cl i e n t b u t f o r yo u r
Page 33 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
p u r p o s e C h a i r, b e c a u se I m u st r e s p o n d t o t h i s q u e st i o n .
B y 1 8 : 0 0 . . . r e m e m b e r, d u r i n g t h e d a y I a m i n co u rt .

By

1 8 : 0 0 I a m e xp e c t i n g a se t t l e d a ff i d a vi t f r o m m y a t t o r n e y s.
T h e y t h e n t e l l m e t h a t “ L o o k, i t i s i m p o s si b l e . We c a n n o t d o
t h i s”.
W h a t w e r e m y. . . m y o p t i o n s w e r e t o si t b a c k o r d o
something.

I d e ci d e d t o d o so m e t h i n g C h a i r.

f ro m c h a m b e r s.

I t h e n c a l l e d m y f a m i l y:

m u st f i n a l i s e t h i s a ff i d a vi t ”.
10

t o g e t h e r t h e a ff i d a vi t s.

I w a s w o r ki n g

“ C o m e h e re .

M y f a m i l y a s si st e d m e .

We

We p u t

We left my chambers at around 12

a . m . b e c a u s e I d i d n o t w a n t t o d e f y y o u o r d e r, C h a i r.

We

went to the police station, the police were reluctant but
they finally agreed to certify …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

The affidavit.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
all totalling 140 pages.

The affidavit and the annexures,
12 a.m.

And then I called my one

child has a bigger scanning machine to come to the house
and we stand – we slept at 4 a.m.

That affidavit was sent

t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n a r o u n d t w e n t y t o f o u r, C h a i r p e r s o n ,
20

b e c a u s e I d i d n o t w a n t t o d e f y y o u r o r d e r, I s a i d r a t h e r
when

the

Chairperson

wakes

up,

the

affidavit

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

The affidavit should be there.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

The affidavit should be there and

then I will deal with the other issues.
Page 34 of 108

Yo u w i l l s e e t h e r e

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
was no notice of motion because …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE

Ye s .

MAKHUBELE:

No, there was no notice of motion.
But

all

the

issues

that

I

am

requesting have been addressed in the affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja, yes.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And thereafter we did not even –

y o u k n o w, w h e n i t i s y o u r o w n m a t t e r y o u e v e n f o r g e t h o w
things are supposed to be done. I even forgot to paginate.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

So I just – we just scanned and

sent through and then we – but when yesterday I realised
oh,

this

thing

is

not

paginated,

then

I

sat

down

and

paginated.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And then I said but there is no

notice of motion.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, that is fine …[intervenes]

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Then I then sent through the notice

of motion.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But everything that I am requesting

is in that affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE

Ja.

MAKHUBELE:

But

then,

Chairperson,

I

was

talking about the legal team’s response to the issues. I did
Page 35 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
not just wake up and say I want to find this affidavit, I
wanted

to

respond

Chairperson,
against me.

to

to

issue

the
a

issues

subpoena,

that
a

made

you,

regulation

10.6

That is tantamount to a warrant of arrest or a

s u m m o n s a n d t h e r e g u l a t i o n i s c l e a r, i t s a y s m a y – i t g i v e s
you a discretion and obviously same thing if it was an
application to rescind a judgment obtained in my absence.
I will have to put factors that if you had been aware of me
sitting there on the 24 July you would not have issued a
10

regulation 10.6 notice against me.

That is the purpose of

that affidavit, Chairperson.
And then the legal team responds in five pages –
well, it is not the volume but it is the substance, but they
do not deal with my – the merits of what I have said. They
simply say we deny we gave time …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

o k a y.

No,

that

is

fine,

I

…[intervenes]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Then they need time to find a

substantive answer to my affidavit.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, well, they will speak for themselves.

I t h i n k w e n e e d t o h a v e s o m e f i n a l i t y. I c e r t a i n l y r e a d y o u r
4 7 p a g e a f f i d a v i t o n – I t h i n k I r e a d i t o n T h u r s d a y, s o I a m
aware of what you say in it.

I was aware when the matter

w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e h e a r d a t 2 p . m . o n F r i d a y. I h a v e r e a d
your earlier affidavit

that you

filed

Page 36 of 108

in

response

to Mr

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
Botha’s affidavit so I am aware of all of those things.
I think I need to say this.

Nothing that has been

said so far changes my inclination not to grant a postpone
but if there is anything that you have not said which you
would like to say in support of the application, I am giving
you another ten minutes to address me then you have had
your time.

Now whether you use that ten minutes or he

uses it or you take five minutes, he takes five minutes, I
leave that to you but I want us to have finality on the
10

question of a postponement.
Well, Chairperson, I would request the matter to
stand down so I can discuss with my attorney on the issue
of postponement.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

B e c a u s e , a s I s a y, w e d i d n o t

discuss.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o …

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But then from my part, what I can

tell you is that - as I have said, preparing, consulting with
20

lawyers, preparing for efficient representation requires me
to be not in court.

I m a g i n e t o d a y, i t i s m y r e a d i n g d a y f o r

tomorrow’s matters, I am sitting here.
being.

I am an emotional

When I leave here I am expected to go and read

files for tomorrow’s m atters.
given the week off.

I mean, if I had not been

So it is – I realise it is – I realise it is
Page 37 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
impossible and I think I need to prepare.

Even if I were to

do the drafting myself I need to prepare, I need to put
together documents and I may have noted at some point I
asked JP Mlambo that, please, just give me special leave,
which

I

still

Chairperson.

intend

to

do

because

I

am

not

coping,

I am not doing myself a good service and as

my attorney has already said, this matter has serious
implications for me.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And it is not something that I can

take light and say let me not just go and appear without
consultation with attorneys but I request that we adjourn so
I c a n b r i e f m y a t t o r n e y.

I did something unconventional

j u s t n o w b e c a u s e , y o u k n o w, w h e n y o u h a v e c o u n s e l l e d a n
a t t o r n e y, h e i s t h e o n e w h o m u s t m a k e s u b m i s s i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , j a .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But Chairperson must understand,

w e a r e o n l y m e e t i n g n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And I did not – the line of your – or

r a t h e r, y o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h h i m I r e a l i s e d t h a t w e a r e
going back to that issue that here is a difficult State
Capture Judge, she is controversial, she does not want to
respond.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Page 38 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Then that is when I decided I need

to address you.
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE

Ye s .

MAKHUBELE:

But

can

you

allow

us

an

opportunity and I think 10 minutes, Chairperson, is too
short a time.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, I was giving you ten minutes to say

whatever else you might wish to say in support of your
application if there is anything you have not said and I
10

think it might be better that I hear what Mr Soni has to saw
before we allow the adjournment because then you would
b e k n o w i n g w h a t h e h a s h a d t o s a y.

So I will give you the

time but I want us to maybe adjourn if possible when there
will be nothing further that you have not said in support of
t h e a p p l i c a t i o n t h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y.
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

Well,

I

have,

but

under

my

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh you say – or are you saying that

some of the things you want to say you would like to
20

consult him first?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O h , o k a y, a l r i g h t .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n , t h a t i s w h y I a m

saying our submissions.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .
Page 39 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
Soni

makes

Can we consult so that when Mr

submissions,

we

have

already

placed

everything that we need to place before you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Yo u s a y t e n m i n u t e s w o u l d n o t b e

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I do not – well, let my attorney

enough?

speak now …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Attorney or counsel, what do you say?

I

do not want us to spend too much time that we do not
10

have.
ADV NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:
without

an

Ye s , C h a i r.
On things that might be dealt with

adjournment

but

if

there

is

a

need

for

adjournment – is there any – are you able to say anything
about how much time you need?
ADV NXASANA:

C h a i r, c a n I p r o p o s e t h a t w e b e g i v e n a t

least 30 minutes?
CHAIRPERSON:

I think what I am going to do, I think I

would rather – what I will do is, let me hear what Mr Soni
20

has to say including on the amount of time and that does
not mean that your part is finished, I will still allow you – I
will still like the question of that adjournment but I just
w a n t u s t o m a k e u s e o f t h e t i m e a s m u c h a s w e c a n . O k a y,
so let me hear Mr Soni.
A D V S O N I S C : T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
Page 40 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:

Both on the application so far as well as

on the request for 30 minutes.
ADV SONI SC: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
account

the

Ye s , M r S o n i ?
Chairperson, I am going to take into

interactions

that

you

have

heard

with

my

learned friend.

10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV SONI SC:

And what Judge Makhubele has said.

Chairperson, the purpose of today is to decide on the
application, this one, and Judge Makhubele says that the
affidavit that was served on us in the early hours of
Thursday is the affidavit in support of the application.
May I just make this point, Chairperson, that the first
application for a postponement was made on the 24 July
w i t h o u t a n y p a p e r s a n d t h a t i s a m a t t e r, C h a i r p e r s o n , t h a t
you raised with my learned friend who then appeared for
Judge Makhubele, but is there no substantive application?
And reasons were given for that, good or bad, but it was

20

given.
And then we have now a further application with
now a substantive application.

We submit, Chairperson,

that the application before you must be determined by what
is contained in the affidavit in support of that application.
Now I have heard Judge Makhubele say well, we
Page 41 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
may wish to respond to different things in the affidavit
where she refers to the legal team.

Chairperson, we do

n o t w a n t t o b e c a u s e t h a t i s n o t t h e i s s u e b e f o r e y o u t o d a y.
The question really is – and this is the issue,
Chairperson,

from

postponement

the

was

made

24

July

and

when

the

application

directive

was

for

given,

Judge Makhubele knew that she had to file her papers, her
affidavit by the 29 July and she would have to appear
t o d a y. W h a t w a s t h e n r e q u i r e d w a s c o u l d t h a t d i r e c t i v e n o t
10

be

complied

with?

Nothing

in

the

affidavit

anything that happened after the 24th.

addresses

So, Chairperson

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

A c t u a l l y, i f o n e g o e s o n t h e b a s i s t h a t ,

as Judge Makhubele indicates, she has given her version
in the affidavit.

It might not be as full as she might have

referred, it seems that then there was less work to be done
in

preparing

the

affidavit,

an

affidavit

would

just

supplement that version.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

And I get the impression that what she

s a y s i s y o u h a v e g o t t h e g i s t o f m y v e r s i o n a l r e a d y.
ADV SONI SC: There is one further matter that I must you,
Chairperson.

Judge

Makhubele

says

that

part

of

the

reason she is seeking the adjournment is that she has
asked for the transcripts of the evidence of Ms Ngoyi and
Page 42 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
Mr Dingiswayo.

Well, Chairperson, on the 23 July her

a t t o r n e y s a s k e d f o r i t a t a b o u t 11 o ’ c l o c k o n t h e 2 3 r d a n d a t
about four o’clock or three o’clock on the very same day
they were given the link to the …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e w e b s i t e .

A D V S O N I S C : To t h e t r a n s c r i p t , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

So they could have got it from the 23rd.
Ye s .

And, Chairperson, at that time, that

is the attorney that was representing Judge Makhubele.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

But, as I understand it, the oral evidence

that was given by Ms Ngoyi and Mr Dingiswayo in relation
to Judge Makhubele’s role at PRA SA was substantially the
sam e as what is in the affidavit.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is that correct?

Is my recollection

correct?
ADV SONI SC:

A b s o l u t e l y.

And, Chairperson, you will

recall that in the case of Mr Dingiswayo all he did was
confirm the correctness because it was late in the day and
20

instead of having his evidence follow on the next day I
proposed that he merely confirms it.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
So – and, Chairperson, you are absolutely

right in regard to Ms Ngoyi, all she did was effectively set
out what was set out in the affidavit that she made.
Page 43 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:

J a . O k a y, a l r i g h t .

ADV SONI SC:

Chairperson, we submit that the day must

b e u s e d f o r t h e p u r p o s e t h a t i t h a s b e e n s e t a s i d e f o r,
namely for Judge Makhubele to give her evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I am going to take a tea break, it is

now about seventeen minutes past eleven.
return at quarter to twelve.

I am going to

Whatever you need to do – so

that is tea break and whatever discussions you need to
h a v e w i t h y o u r a t t o r n e y, u s e t h a t t i m e .
10

When I come back,

I will give you the ten minutes to say whatever you might
still

need

to

postponement.

say

in

support

of

the

application

said

that

a

I can indicate, as I have already indicated,

that my inclination is to dismiss the application.
is

for

persuades

me

when

I

come

If nothing
back,

the

application will be dismissed and I will need us to start.
Now the question of whether there was good cause
f o r y o u n o t t o f i l e a f f i d a v i t s o n W e d n e s d a y, t h a t n e e d n o t
b e d e c i d e d n o w.

I c a n d e c i d e i t e v e n l a t e r.

Or what is

more, what is important is whether today we are able to
20

proceed to hear your evidence.

So that is the inclination, I

am giving you the benefit of knowing what is in my mind.
When we come back, I will give you ten minutes to
see whether there is anything else you want to say and
t h e n i f I f e e l t h a t I c a n d e c i d e i m m e d i a t e l y, I w i l l d e c i d e
i m m e d i a t e l y i f , f r o m w h a t y o u s a y, I n e e d m o r e t i m e .
Page 44 of 108

Then

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
w e w i l l t a k e i t f r o m t h e r e . Ye s , J u d g e M a k h u b e l e ?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

C h a i r, t h e r e i s a n a p p l i c a t i o n . A r e

you saying you are not going to hear me because in that
application I have made requests that require Chairperson
to make orders. Are you saying my application is not going
to be heard?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , r e m e m b e r, I s a i d , y o u k n o w, I n e e d

– earlier on I said I need to know exactly what we are
dealing
10

with

today

and

there

is

an

application

for

a

postponement. I have given you time to address me on the
application for a postponement and I am saying that I am
going

to

give

you

ten

minutes

after

the

adjournment,

because we have been dealing with it for a long time
a l r e a d y, t o a d d r e s s m e .
want

to

address

postponement,
remember

that

you

If there is anything else that you

other
will

when

than
need

we

the
to

application

tell

started

I

me

asked

but
Mr

for
you

a
will

Nxasana

exactly what it is that we are dealing with because I
wanted to be sure.
20

So what I am saying is, I have heard what you have
s a i d u p t o n o w. I h a v e h e a r d w h a t M r N x a s a n a h a s s a i d u p
t o n o w.

Based on what has been said to me, I am inclined

to dismiss the application but I have not made a decision
to dismiss it, I will give you more time to address me.

But

I

the

am

saying

that

I

gave

you

ten

Page 45 of 108

minutes

after

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
adjournment to address me and if there is anything else I
have missed that you want to bring to my attention that will
be the time to bring it to my attention and then we will take
it from there.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

T h e r e a s o n I a m a s k i n g , C h a i r, i f

you can forgive me, is because if you start by dismissing
my

application

for

postponement

then

in

the

–

in

my

affidavit I have already said the notice of motion that I sent
it is actually what I am requesting in my affidavit.
10

And in

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h y s h o u l d y o u n o t d e a l w i t h

that after the adjournment, exactly what you want to raise,
why should you not include it after the adjournment?

Ja,

w e w i l l a d j o u r n n o w, w e w i l l r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r t o a n d t h e n
I will give you that opportunity before I make a final
decision.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

O k a y, w e a d j o u r n .

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
20

I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , M r N x a s a n a y o u w e r e g o i n g t o

address whatever else you might not have addressed to me
earlier in support of the application.
Just switch on your mic, ja.
ADV NXASANA:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
Page 46 of 108

Chair I first indicated

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
that when I stood up ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you want to move your mask a little,

s o I c a n h e a r y o u p r o p e r l y, t h a n k s .
ADV NXASANA:

Chair when I told the Chairperson that

that the instructions are to move an application for a
postponement based on the reasons, especially that we
have not consulted.

C h a i r, I w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n

that today the matter was, obviously set-down for the
application that my client has brought and I was moving
10

that application for a postponement to enable her to enable
her

to

get

legal

assistance

even

if

to

argue

that

application, I don’t know if the Chair understands me?
CHAIRPERSON:

So you are moving an application, not

only for the postponement of the hearing of her evidence
but also for the postponement of her application for a
postponement?
ADV NXASANA:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Is it correct?

ADV NXASANA:
20

That is what I was saying, although I

hear the client is saying that she – because I haven’t –
that is the reason why I was moving that application,
precisely because I felt…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

So

there

was

an

application

for

a

postponement, you come, not to move that application for a
postponement

but

to

move

another

Page 47 of 108

application

for

a

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
postponement of the postponement? [Laughter] What is
that Mr Nxasana?
ADV NXASANA:

Chair the bottom line is it’s clear that

Judge Makhubele requires legal assistance.

Ye s , s h e h a s

explained to the Chairperson how she ended up drafting
the affidavit herself, when she had instructed attorneys and
she said in her own words that the attorneys – after the
attorneys had let her down and because…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

dealing with.

Let’s

clear

out

again

what

we

are

Is it the application for a postponement that

w a s p o s t p o n e m e n t t o d a y, i n c l u d i n g a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r t h e
amendment of the Directive of 24 July or are you moving
an application for a postponement of that postponement
application?
ADV

NXASANA:

C h a i r,

my

view

was

to

move

an

application for a postponement.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

Of what, postponement of what?

NXASANA:

Of

her

testimony

first

and

also

I

answered that I understood that the matter was set-down
20

on

the

brought,

30th at two
which

for the

application

application
could

not

that

client

proceed

for

has
the

r e a s o n s t h a t I h a v e a d v a n c e d b u t C h a i r, I t h e n s a i d t h a t I
submitted that she requires legal assistance because of
the

implications

that

all

those

proceedings

may

have,

taking into consideration that the matter is serving before
Page 48 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
the JCC and a recommendation has already been made
that the tribunal should be established, that was on that
premise but then when the Chairperson pressed me with
questions that is when I said, client is here to explain
especially because there was an impression that client was
delaying the matter to – she was delaying to come to the
Commission

and

if,

Chairperson,

the

Chairperson

has

already indicated if the Chairperson is inclined to refusing
the
10

postponement

then

based

Chairperson has furnished
or my

on

the

reason

that

the

then the – then my application

s u b m i s s i o n , C h a i r, i s t h a t i f t h e C h a i r p e r s o n l o o k s

at the matters of motion that the client filed late last night,
you’ll see Chairperson that you are going back to the
…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Can I have a copy of that Notice of

Motion, I did see it earlier on but I just want to have a look
a t i t n o w, y e s M r N x a s a n a .
ADV NXASANA:

T h e n , C h a i r, m y s u b m i s s i o n i s t h a t , I

hear the Chairperson saying that the matter – that Judge
20

Makhubele is expected to testify on, is purely of a factual
n a t u r e b u t C h a i r, i f y o u l o o k a t t h e a f f i d a v i t t h a t s h e f i l e d i n
the application for the Regulation 10 sub-section 6, you
see that she has made very serious allegations against the
legal team, the very same legal team that is expected to
lead her evidence.
Page 49 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:

Well,

she

brings

her

application

in

regard to the legal team at the last minute. She has known
the members of the legal team of the Commission involved
in this matter for months and of course she did have a
c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h t h e m o n t h e 9 t h o f J u l y, w e l l , m a y b e s h e
might not have known, she might have known one before
June, I’m not sure, but certainly she had a consultation
with them on the 9th of July so she knew them, at least at
the latest on that date.
10

Prior to that she had, as she said

earlier on herself, she had raised certain objections which
included one of the members of the Commission’s legal
team involved in the PRASA matter but she later withdrew
all

the

objections

that

she

had

articulated

and

was

p r e p a r e d t o c o n s u l t , w h i c h s h e d i d o n t h e 9 t h o f J u l y. F r o m
t h e 9 t h o f J u l y s h e k n e w, a t l e a s t , t h e t w o m e m b e r s o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n ’ s l e g a l t e a m w h o a r e i n v o l v e d i n t h e m a t t e r.
O n F r i d a y t h e 2 4 t h , i t w a s , i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y, i t w a s n o t
one of her grounds for a postponement that she had an
objection to members of the legal team.
20

When she filed

her affidavit on Thursday last week, yes she has expressed
certain unhappiness with regard to members of the legal
team which is in the affidavit but there has been quite a lot
of time for her to raise such issues, at least from the 9th.
We adjourned on the 24th, we adjourned today and she has
r a i s e d , n o w, t h e s e c o n c e r n s t h a t s h e h a s r a i s e d .
Page 50 of 108

It seems

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
to me that she should have raised them much earlier
number one.

Number two, what about the fact that the

members of the legal team will not really decide anything
r e l a t i n g t o h e r, t h e y w i l l p u t q u e s t i o n s t o h e r, I ’ m t h e o n e
w h o w i l l , u l t i m a t e l y, m a k e a d e c i s i o n , w h a t d o y o u s a y
about that?
ADV NXASANA:

Ye s i t m a y b e s o b u t I t h i n k C h a i r, a s a

witness, if the witness is making such serious allegations
a g a i n s t m e m b e r s o f t h e l e g a l t e a m , C h a i r, I s u b m i t t h a t
10

they m ust respond and from the answering affidavit you
see that only one member has responded but not fully to
the

allegations

and

there

is

not

even

a

confirmatory

affidavit from the evidence leader…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Let’s go to the actual allegations or do

you want to address – to address them. As I understand it,
I think she said they must indicate if they’ve done some
work for PRASA or that kind of thing which suggests to me
that it’s not – it might not be, even a situation that she’s in
possession of any information herself in regard to one of
20

the members of the legal team, I think she did not want to
put forward, in the affidavit what the issue was and I think,
p r e v i o u s l y,

she

had

done

the

same

in

regard

to

one

member of the legal team but she had said that she was
withdrawing

that

objection

with

regard

to

–

when

she

withdrew objections, it included that objection against that
Page 51 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
one member of the legal team.

So – and she withdrew her

objection and then bring it back.
ADV NXASANA:

Chair that is also another problem,

C h a i r, t h a t I ’ m g o i n g t o a d d r e s s t h e C h a i r o n .

The other

d i f f i c u l t y,

is

C h a i r,

is

that,

I

hear

the

Chair

asking

questions but they are questions that I cannot answer
simply because I haven’t taken full instructions, I haven’t
had the opportunity to consult…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja but you are arguing on the basis of

a n a f f i d a v i t t h a t s h e f i l e d o n T h u r s d a y.
ADV NXASANA:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Last week.

ADV NXASANA:

But Chair I wasn’t aware of the objection

that

she

withdrew

earlier

on,

that’s

my

problem…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
because

she

Ja but you did hear her later – earlier on

also

certain objections.

mentioned

that

she

had

withdrawn

I think the objections about PRASA

might not have been part of any objection at that time. So,
20

I t h i n k t h e o b j e c t i o n s t h a t m a y b e n e w, m a y b e o b j e c t i o n s
about whether members of the legal team have done work
for PRASA and the way she feels she was treated on the
9th of July in the consultation.

I think those are the only

o n e s t h a t m a y b e n e w, y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f I ’ m m i s s i n g
something?
Page 52 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
ADV NXASANA:

Chair about new ones I’m not sure but

what you have said is …[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Is

what

you

know

also,

was

the

objections.
ADV NXASANA:

Is what I’ve read about in the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV NXASANA:

Ye s a n d C h a i r, m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h e r

request in terms of the application that she has brought in
t e r m s o f 11 . 1 i s t h a t s h e w a s a s k i n g t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e
10

l e g a l t e a m t o d e c l a r e t h e i r i n t e r e s t , i f t h e y h a v e a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Which

means

she

doesn’t

have

information whether they have a conflict of interest or not
otherwise she would not be asking.

She would be saying,

I’m aware that this and this is the position.
ADV NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, but…[intervenes].
I mean, we are going to close to half a

d a y n o w, I w a n t f i n a l i t y.

Five me your last submissions in

the next five minutes, whatever you want to address, I’ve
given you more than ten minutes, we have got to have
20

f i n a l i t y.
ADV NXASANA:

Ye s C h a i r, I t h i n k , C h a i r t h e j u s t i c e w i l l

o n l y b e d o n e i n t h i s m a t t e r, C h a i r, i f J u d g e M a k h u b e l e
were to be – if the application that she has brought herself
was going to be heard before the Chairperson was going to
make

a

ruling

on

the

issue

of

Page 53 of 108

the

application

for

a

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
postponem ent. The reason why I say that, it’s because it’s
there in the application that she’s brought, the application
i n t e r m s o f R u l e 11 s u b - s e c t i o n 1 , t h a t i s m y s u b m i s s i o n
a n d a l s o C h a i r, i n t h e e v e n t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n , a s h e h a s
indicated that he is inclined to dismissing the application,
in

the

event

that

the

application

is

dismissed

for

a

postponement to enable her to consult with her legal team,
that

will

mean,

representation
10

b a s i c a l l y,
because

in

that

she

terms

of

doesn’t
the

have

rules

legal

of

the

Commission, she’s entitled to legal representation and one
of the powers of the Chairperson is to grant the legal
representative,

appearing

on

behalf

of

the

implicated

witness, leave to re-examine the witness which I will not be
in a position to do without having consulted and taken
instructions but that’s not only the point.
the

client

requires

and

she

needs

The point is that

services

of

Senior

Counsel.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NXASANA:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Are those your submissions?

ADV NXASANA:

Those are my submissions.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e q u e s t i o n o f

whether she had good grounds not to file her affidavit or
affidavits within the timeframe stipulated in the Directive of
J u l y 2 4 , t h a t I c a n d e c i d e l a t e r, I d o n ’ t t h i n k I n e e d t o
Page 54 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
d e c i d e t h a t n o w.

With regard to the application and with

regard to the affidavits, she herself has said that she has
a c t u a l l y, i n h e r a f f i d a v i t t h a t s h e f i l e d i n r e s p o n s e t o M r
Botes, she has said that she has put in her version.

It

might not be as full as she might have wished but she has
said that she has put in her version, it’s not true that she
has not put up her version and that’s the gist of what she
was saying. We are working under serious strains in terms
of an Order of Court to make sure we work within a certain
10

time and she has had enough time to really obtain counsel
w h o w o u l d b e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d t o d a y, a s I s e e i t b u t a l s o ,
although one accepts that, even a Judge does need legal
representation in a case, in certain places one can’t forget
the fact that she is a Judge, she is legally trained and also
in the end, also the fact that, really the matters that will be
dealt with be very factual, we are – the Commission is
scheduled for a number of witnesses for quite some time
and there are many more people who are supposed to
testify and we lost a day on the 24th, we shifted other

20

witnesses for today in order to sit.

So, I’m going to

dismiss the application but I will give reasons in due
course. The application is dismissed.
ADV NXASANA:
application

that

T h a n k y o u C h a i r, j u s t f o r c l a r i t y, t h e
is

dismissed

is

postponement.
Page 55 of 108

the

application

for

a

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:

Well the application for a postponement

is dismissed and I said the issue of whether she has
complied

–

she

had

good

cause

to

comply

with

the

Directive in term s of filing an affidavit by Wednesday last
week, that can be decided – I can decide that later on.
Remember the Directive had two dates, one was the filing
of the affidavits, on Wednesday and the other was for her
to appear today and she has appeared.
ADV NXASANA:
10

Ye s C h a i r.

Chair there is an application

before you, Chair…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja which one?

ADV NXASANA:

T h e o n e t h a t – i n t e r m s o f R u l e 11 s u b -

section 1.
CHAIRPERSON:

It’s an application for what?

ADV NXASANA:

It sets out, there in the Notice of Motion,

that 1) is the granting condonation for non-compliance with
the time strains in term of

service, 2) reconsideration in

rescission of the Directives of 24 July 2020 alternatively

20

substitution

of

Directive.

3)

regulation

10

the

time

Setting

periods
aside

sub-section

6

indicated

and/or
subpoena

in

the

withdrawing
served

on

said
the
the

applicant on 28 July 2020...[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Well let’s take them one by one let’s

l e a v e o u t 1 f o r n o w, r e c o n s i d e r a t i o n a n d r e s c i s s i o n o f t h e
Directives of 24 July 2020 or alternatively substitution of
Page 56 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
the time periods indicated in the said Directives.

The

Directive was about two things, 1), her filing an affidavit or
a f f i d a v i t s b y W e d n e s d a y l a s t w e e k , 2 ) a p p e a r i n g t o d a y.
S h e h a s a p p e a r e d t o d a y s o t h a t f a l l s a w a y, t h e r e ’ s – t h a t
f a l l s a w a y, s h e d i d n o t f i l e a n a f f i d a v i t o n t h e 2 9 t h a n d s h e
is asking us to – for a reconsideration of that to the extent
that she may be asking for more time to file affidavits, 1)
She has said that she has filed an affidavit, she has put up
a version it’s not true that she has not put up a version, it
10

might not be as full as she wanted

but even without that I

would not do that – I would not direct that she does that on
another date if that was to require a postponement of the
matter because the matters can be dealt with, without any
further affidavits but if she chooses, apart from, I addition
to having given oral evidence that, for certain reasons she
would like to file affidavits, that might be a separate issue
then

3)

is

about

setting

aside

or

withdrawing

Directive that’s what we have t alked about

10(6)

and then

granting the applicant sufficient time to consult with her
20

legal team, that’s what I’ve indicated, I don’t think that
there is good cause that has been shown and then with
regard to 5), the transcripts, Mr Soni says, the previous
attorneys were told on the 23rd, they were given the link in
o r d e r t o b e a b l e t o a c c e s s t h e t r a n s c r i p t s t e c h n o l o g i c a l l y.
ADV NXASANA:

C h a i r, j u s t o n t h a t p o i n t .
Page 57 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NXASANA:

Ja.
M y i n s t r u c t i o n C h a i r, a r e t h a t , t h a t l i n k

was never provided to client and she has never seen the
…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w e l l t h a t m i g h t b e – t h a t m i g h t h a v e

to be dealt with but my recollection is that the evidence
that was given is substantially the same as the evidence
that was in the affidavits which she has had – so I wasn’t
going to postpone the proceedings in order for her to get
10

t h e t r a n s c r i p t s f i r s t b e c a u s e , a s I s a y, e v e n i f t h e l i n k
wasn’t even – the oral evidence was substantially along
the lines of the affidavits.

6) The results of the analysis of

the investigations conducted by the forensic, I’m sure that
can be arranged for her to get that, Mr Soni did not
address that, directing the legal team to provide all the cell
phone records both – but also this is all coming on the
morning of the hearing, I mean very late.

8) Directing and

compelling the Commission’s legal team and investigators,
assisting the Commission in the PRASA hearing to disclose
20

their professional interest in PRASA, ja.

I think if she

needs to file a complaint she must file a complaint.

No we

are proceeding.
ADV NXASANA:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

ADV NXASANA:

J u s t o n e m o r e t h i n g f r o m m y s i d e C h a i r,
Page 58 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
I understand that the client has made mention

of the

affidavit that she filed in the com plaint against Advocate
Botes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NXASANA:

And that she said she dealt therein with

her evidence not substantially as she would have liked.
C h a i r I h a v e n o t s e e n t h a t a f f i d a v i t e i t h e r, t h o s e a r e t h e
constraints…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

ADV

She should have given you that affidavit.

NXASANA:

Those

are

the

constraints

that…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

W e g o t i t f r o m h e r, a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , I

may be mistaken but we have had it for quite some time
and I think she – I think that was end of June if I’m not
mistaken.

Well

there

are

dismissed the application.

two

options

now

that

I’ve

One is whether I should give –

well I don’t know whether your position would be that you
are going to withdraw in the light of the dismissal of the
application or whether you are going to seek to have some
20

time to consult with her and that we – I give you some time
before we resume to consult with her and then we resume
at a certain time and then we deal with her evidence.
ADV NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

May I approach Chair?
Ye s , j a .

We l l M r N x a s a n a I ca n n o t si t

here and…
Page 59 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
A D V N X A S A N A : C h a i r t h a n k yo u . I u n d e r st a n d t h a t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V N X A S A N A : C h a i r p e rh a p s j u s t o n e i s s u e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N X A S A N A : C l i e n t s h e i s r a i si n g o n e i s s u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N X A S A N A : I f C h a i r c a n cl a ri t y t h a t ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MAKHUBELE:
10

Ye s Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e .

C h a i r p e r s o n I h a ve n o t e d yo u r e a d t h e

p r a y e r s u p t o a c e rt a i n p r a ye r.

Ye s I u n d e r st a n d w i t h t h e

P R A S A G e n e r a l D e cl a r a t i o n o f I n t e r e st I h a ve a n o n u s t o
p r o vi d e e vi d e n ce w h i c h I w i l l i n t i m e .

B u t t h e r e i s a p r a ye r

s p e ci f i c a l l y s e e ki n g t h e r e c u s a l o f A d v o c a t e Va s S o n i S C .
T h e r e i s a p ra y e r t h e r e C h a i rp e r s o n a n d i f y o u d i s m i s s m y
a p p l i ca t i o n i n g e n e r a l y o u – yo u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l …
MS MAKHUBELE:

T h e a ff i d a vi t – m y a ff i d a vi t d e a l s w i t h

Advocate

the

Soni

is

reason

why

I

pulled

out

of

the

c o n su l t a t i o n w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d y o u c a n n o t e x p e ct m e
20

t o d a y t o b e l e d b y h i m w i t h o u t y o u f i r st h e a r i n g m e – m y
re a s o n s w h y I sa y h e s h o u l d n o t b e l e a d i n g m e i n e vi d e n ce .
Yo u ca n c a l l a n y p e r s o n i n t h e l e g a l t e a m t o l e a d m e b u t n o t
Advocate Soni.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MAKHUBELE:

Chairperson he – Advocate Soni in this
Page 60 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
a ff i d a vi t I h a v e s a i d o n t h e 2 4 J u l y h e i s st a n d i n g t h e r e h e
t o l d so m e u n t r u t h a b o u t m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MAKHUBELE:

I h a v e s u b m i t t e d e vi d e n c e .

C h a i rp e r s o n

c a n n o t si m p l y d i s m i s s m e l i k e t h a t w i t h o u t e ve n m e n t i o n i n g
o n t h e r e c o r d w h a t I h a v e s a i d a n d s p e ci f i ca l l y d i s m i s s t h a t
p r a y e r t h a t J u d g e M a k h u b e l e i s t a l ki n g co h e re n c e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l y o u r e m e m b e r …
MS MAKHUBELE: I need a ruling whether…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e m e m b e r – y o u re m e m b e r I s a i d I w a s
going to adjourn to – and when we come back I will give you
a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o s a y w h a t e v e r yo u m i g h t n o t h a v e s a i d .
M S M A K H U B E L E : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g o t o – t o t h a t p a rt o f y o u r a ff i d a vi t .
MS MAKHUBELE:
s p e ci f i c a l l y

with

M y p a rt o f t h e a ff i d a vi t w h e r e I d e a l
Advocate

Soni

because

C h a i rp e r s o n

re m e m b e r y o u a s k e d – yo u s a i d I m a k e m y s e l f a v a i l a b l e t o
c o n su l t w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

MS MAKHUBELE: Which is true.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MS MAKHUBELE:

A n d t h e n t h e o b j e ct i o n s t h a t I h a d

w i t h d r a w n m a y b e f o r t h e r e co r d a t t h a t t i m e w a s a n d b e l i e ve
f ro m m y p e r s p e ct i v e m a d e s e n s e a l t h o u g h t h e re w a s n e ve r a
ru l i n g b u t I t h o u g h t w e co u l d m o v e a l o n g .
Page 61 of 108

But when I met

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
A d v o c a t e S o n i I d e a l w i t h i t i n t h e a ff i d a vi t m a yb e f r o m p a g e
23 from paragraph 51. I detail how I met them.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K H U B E L E : A n d w h a t b r o k e d o w n t h e re l a t i o n s h i p .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MAKHUBELE:

I f t h a t re l a t i o n s h i p d i d n o t b r e a k d o w n ,

w e w o u l d n o t b e h e r e t o d a y C h a i rp e r s o n .

I was happy to

p r o vi d e a n a ff i d a v i t t o t h e l e g a l t e a m b u t h e i s t h e r e a so n I
pulled out.
10

A n d C h a i r p e r so n h a s a l r e a d y m a d e a d ve r s e

re m a r k s a b o u t m y p u l l i n g o u t o f t h a t c o n su l t a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MAKHUBELE:

S o i t i s i m p o rt a n t C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t t h i s

i s s u e b e a d d r e s s e d a n d I r e q u e st t i m e t o b ri e f m y a t t o r n e y
p r o p e rl y t o p re s e n t t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n a l t e r n a t i v e l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e cu s a l a p p l i c a t i o n ?
MS MAKHUBELE:

Ye s. A l t e r n a t i v e l y, yo u a l l o w m e t o m o v e

i t w h i c h y o u e ff e ct i v e l y d e n yi n g l e g a l re p r e se n t a t i o n i f I h a v e
p r e s e n t t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n m y se l f .

T h i s m u st b e p r e s e n t e d

Chairperson.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l …
MS MAKHUBELE:

I f yo u s a y I m u st p r o c e e d t o d a y t h e

q u e st i o n i s w h o w i l l b e l e a d i n g m e ? I c a n n e ve r s i t h e r e a n d
h a ve a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h y o u .

I have no problem but I am

not going to allow Advocate Soni.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e c u s a l a p p l i c a t i o n i t i s a re c u s a l
Page 62 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
a p p l i ca t i o n i t i s n o t a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r t h e p o st p o n e m e n t o f
t h e h e a ri n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e .
m a t t e r s.

T h o s e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t

A n d y o u re m e m b e r t h a t I k e p t o n s a yi n g I w a n t t o

k n o w e x a ct l y w h i c h a p p l i c a t i o n – o r w h i c h i s s u e i s b e i n g
m o v e d . Yo u w a n t a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o t a l k t o y o u r a t t o r n e y a n d
brief him about the recusal application?
M S M A K H U B E L E : We l l I d o n o t k n o w C h a i r p e r so n y o u h a v e
a l re a d y ru l e d o n s o m e p a rt s o f t h e – m y N o t i c e o f M o t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I – t h e p o st p o n e m e n t I h a v e d i sm i s s e d t h e

p o st p o n e m e n t a p p l i c a t i o n .
M S M A K H U B E L E : Ye s b u t t h e n C h a i rp e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e cu s a l a p p l i c a t i o n .
MS MAKHUBELE:

C h a i r p e r so n t h e r e i s a l o t t h a t w a s sa i d

a b o u t m e o n t h e 2 4 J u l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K H U B E L E : Yo u w o u l d r e c a l l .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K H U B E L E : A n d t h e n t h e p o i n t t h a t I a m t a ki n g i s t h e
p e r s o n m a ki n g t h o s e r e m a r k s w a s n o t t e l l i n g t h e t ru t h .
20

I

g a ve y o u e vi d e n c e t h a t w h e n A d v o c a t e S o n i st o o d t h e r e h e
s a i d s o m e t h i n g t h a t I – I d i d n o t r e t u r n h i s c a l l s.

I a m t h i s,

this and that and I deal with it and I also deal with his
c o n d u ct w h e n t h e y h a v e c o n s u l t e d w i t h m e t h a t l o o ki n g a t
how

he

dealt

immediately

with

me

in

that

p a rt i c u l a r

pulled

out

Chairperson

Page 63 of 108

and

c o n su l t a t i o n
I

believe

I

the

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
a p p l i ca t i o n t h a t I h a ve m a d e m u st b e e n t e rt a i n e d .

Yo u c a n

d i s m i s s i t b u t a f t e r g i v i n g m e a n o p p o rt u n i t y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MAKHUBELE:

Yo u c a n n o t si m p l y d i s m i s s e v e r yt h i n g

t h a t I a m m a ki n g h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no. I remember I said I want to – from
t h e b e g i n n i n g I s a i d I w a n t t o k n o w e xa ct l y w h a t w e a r e
dealing

with

a p p l i ca t i o n .
10

and

so

f a r,

I

was

told

the

p o st p o n e m e n t

N o m e n t i o n w a s m a d e o f a re c u s a l a p p l i c a t i o n .

Now Mr Soni what do you say about the recusal application
in terms of how we move forward? Let me hear that?
MS MAKHUBELE:

C h a i r p e r so n b e f o r e y o u g i ve h i m a n

o p p o rt u n i t y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K H U B E L E : I si t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MAKHUBELE:

I – b e f o r e t h e y c o m e h e r e , t h e y p r e p a re

t h e i r w o r k.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M A K H U B E L E : B e f o r e I g o t o c o u rt , I p r e p a r e m y w o r k.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K H U B E L E : B u t I m a n a g e d – I d i d n o t sl e e p .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MAKHUBELE:

I w r o t e t h i s a ff i d a vi t a f t e r d o i n g m y

oppose motion.
Page 64 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M A K H U B E L E : T h e y h a v e h a d t h i s a ff i d a vi t si n c e – si n c e
w h e n – T h u r s d a y m o r n i n g . To d a y i t i s M o n d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l …
MS MAKHUBELE: I do not think it is ….
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l …
M S M A K H U B E L E : C h a i r i t i s p ro p e r f o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Judge Makhubele.
MS MAKHUBELE:
10

Fo r A d v o c a t e S o n i t o re s p o n d t o m y

a ff i d a vi t .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
M S M A K H U B E L E : H e m u st f i l e a n a ff i d a vi t a b o u t t h e m o v e .
MS MAKHUBELE:

N o , n o , n o y o u h a v e n o t – yo u h a v e n o t

h e a r d w h a t I sa y.

I want to hear what Mr Soni has to say

about

the

r e cu s a l

application

not

the

su b st a n t i v e

p a rt

b e ca u s e y o u – y o u r c o u n s e l h a s n o t – t e st i t .
MS MAKHUBELE:

B u t a j u d g e h a s f i l e d a n a ff i d a vi t u n d e r

oath.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

MS MAKHUBELE:

W h y c a n h e n o t f i l e a n a ff i d a vi t u n d e r

oath?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b u t J u d g e M a k h u b e l e p l e a se w a i t .
M S M A K H U B E L E : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

I need to hear him as well.

take a seat and let me hear Mr Soni.
Page 65 of 108

Ms Nxasana

Ju st p u t o n y o u r

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
m i cr o p h o n e M r S o n i .
ADV SONI SC:

C h a i r p e r s o n o f c o u r s e I st a n d h e r e i n a

ra t h e r i n vi d i o u s p o si t i o n .

F o rt u n a t e l y, t h o u g h C h a i rp e r s o n

t h e r e a r e t w o i s s u e s t h a t a r e i n v o l v e d i n e v e r yt h i n g t h a t
J u d g e M a k h u b e l e a n d M r N xa s a n a h a s s a i d .
F i r st i s; w h a t i s m y r o l e i n t h i s c o m m i s si o n ? I d o n o t
p l a y a n y r o l e i n m a k i n g a n y d e ci s i o n s.
e vi d e n c e a n d t o c h a l l e n g e e v i d e n c e .

My role is to lead
What comes of that

e vi d e n c e C h a i rp e r s o n i s i n y o u r h a n d s.
10

The second issue Chairperson is that it cannot be for
a w i t n e s s t o s a y t o t h e c o m m i s si o n t h a t i t m a y n o t – t h e
c o m m i s si o n m a y n o t a l l o w o n e o f i t s m e m b e r s u n l e s s t h e r e
are

good

reasons

not

to

p a rt i c i p a t e

in

p a rt i c u l a r

p r o c e e d i n g s. A s I u n d e r st a n d i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e re i s h e r a ff i d a vi t t h a t h a s g o t t h i s o f

Thursday?
ADV SONI SC:

I f I re c a l l a p p l i c a t i o n b y J u d g e M a k h u b e l e

f o r a m e n d m e n t o f t h e r e g u l a t i o n s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st – j u st r e a d t h e – j u st r e m i n d m e o f t h e
20

re l e v a n t p a rt s o f t h a t – i n t h e a ff i d a vi t ?
ADV SONI SC:

C h a i r p e r s o n a t p a r a g r a p h 5 2 t h i s i s w h e re

J u d g e M a k h u b e l e st a rt s.

She met Ms Mangata [?] and

m y se l f a n d t h e n w e h a d a f o re n si c i n ve st i g a t o r a n d t h e n s h e
s a y s:
“A t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e m e e t i n g ”
Page 66 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
T h i s i s a t p a r a g ra p h 5 4 .
“ T h e c o m m i s si o n ’s t e a m s e e m e d t o a p p r e ci a t e m y p o si t i o n i n
t h e o b j e ct i o n s I ra i se d .

I s a y s o b e c a u s e i n r e s p e ct o f

f o r e n si c a n a l y si s W h a t sA p p a n d m e s s a g e s t h e y m a d e a
c o n ce s s i o n t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e n o n e e d t o d o a n i m a g i n g o f
my phone.

T h e n w e a g r e e d t h a t I sh o u l d e m a i l t o M s

Mangata [?] copies of all the annexure.”
That is at paragraph 65. Paragragh 56.
“ T h e m e e t i n g p ro g r e s s e d i n t o o r r a t h e r d e g e n e r a t e d i n t o a
10

s e s si o n o f a c c u s a t o ri a l e x ch a n g e s w i t h A d v o c a t e S o n i w h o
s e e m e d t o t a k e a p r o s e c u t o ri a l p o st u r e l i k e d e s p i t e a n
e a rl i e r a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t b y t h e c o m m i s si o n t h a t m y m a t t e r
w a s b e f o r e t h e J S C a n d t h e J C C a n d t h a t i n e s s e n ce t h e
t e st i m o n y r e q u i r e d – re q u i r e d f r o m m e r e l a t e d t o i s s u e s
b e f o r e t h o s e f o r u m s.
It became a very lengthy and tiresome engagement
w h i c h d i st r e s s e d m e a n d c o m p l e t e l y m a d e m e c h a n g e m y
i n i t i a l vi e w w h e n I o ff e r e d t o c o n s u l t w i t h t h e t e a m .

His

b e h a vi o u r a ct u a l l y c o n f i r m e d m y a p p r e h e n si o n a b o u t t h e
20

o b j e ct i vi t y o f t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d i n v e st i g a t o r s.
A d v o c a t e S o n i a t t e m p t e d t o a ct a s a p o l i ce o ff i c e r,
p r o s e c u t o r a n d j u d i ci a l o ff i ce r.

I d o n o t b e l i e ve t h a t t h i s i s

t h e r o l e o f t h e l e g a l t e a m w h e n t h e y t a k e st a t e m e n t s.

O ve r

a n d o v e r a g a i n A d v o c a t e S o n i m a d e i t cl e a r t h a t h e w a s
g o i n g t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e m e o n t h i n g s t h a t h e d i d n o t b e l i e ve
Page 67 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
that I was telling the truth.

H e a ct u a l l y sa t w i t h m e a s a n

agent of the witnesses that accused me of wrongdoings at
PRASA

p a rt i cu l a rl y

Ms

Ngoye,

Mr

D i n g i s w a yo

and

Mr

Mkhatshwa.
Also,

to

mention

that

d u ri n g

our

telephone

c o n ve r s a t i o n s A d v o c a t e S o n i h a d i n f o r m e d m e t h a t M r A g m a t
w o u l d n o t b e t e st i f yi n g . ”
Then at paragraph 60.
“ W h a t b ro k e m y p a t i e n c e a n d t o l e ra n c e o f t h e co n s u l t a t i o n
10

was the attempt by Advocate Soni while Ms Mangata[?]
re m a i n e d si l e n t s u p p r e s s m y e vi d e n c e w h i c h I b e l i e v e w i l l
c o n t r a d i ct t h e a l l e g a t i o n s o f t h e w i t n e s se s. I w o u l d r e f e r t o a
few examples without revealing what my answer is at this
st a g e .
1 . T h e i s su e o f t h e a u t h o ri t y o f t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e
board to intervene as I did.
b . T h e d e l e g a t i o n o f a u t h o r i t y f r o m t h e b o a rd .
c. M y f i r st i n t e r a ct i o n w i t h M s N g o y e a n d M r D i n g i s w a y o .
4. Contentions – contentious issues that the board raised

20

with the legal unit headed by Ms Ngoye.
5 . M y i n t e r a ct i o n s w i t h t h e e m p l o y e e s o f P R A S A w h o
t e st i f i e d a t t h e i n s o l v e n c y i n q u i ry.
All

these

matters

and

many

m o re

are

recorded

in

my

n o t e b o o k w h i ch I s h o w e d A d v o ca t e S o n i a n d M s M a n g a t e [ ? ] .
I t o l d A d v o c a t e S o n i a n d M s M a n g a t e[ ? ] t h a t I i n t e n d e d t o
Page 68 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
t ra n s c ri b e t h e n o t e s b e c a u s e so m e o f t h e i s s u e s c o n st i t u t e
m y d e f e n c e a n d s o m e s a w w r o n g d o i n g s o n p a r.
W h e n e v e r I ra i se d a n i s s u e t h a t i s f a v o u ra b l e t o m e
A d v o c a t e S o n i w o u l d ru d e l y t e l l m e t h a t I s h o u l d co n c e n t r a t e
on the allegations that I pushed a pushed a settlement plan.
T h i s i s w h e n I a s k e d A d v o ca t e S o n i a b o u t t h e e x p e n s e o f t h e
c o m m i s si o n ’s i n v e st i g a t i o n s i n t h e se P R A S A h e a ri n g s.
I t h e n l e a r n e d f o r t h e f i r st t i m e t h a t t h e r e a s o n t h a t I
a m b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n i s b e c a u se M s N g o y e a n d M r
10

D i n g i s w a y o h a d l a i d a c o m p l a i n t a g a i n st m e .

Why does this

shock me?

I w a s o f t h e vi e w t h a t t h e co m m i s si o n w a s

i n v e st i g a t i n g

m a l a d m i n i st r a t i o n ,

i r re g u l a ri t i e s

and

various

b r e a c h e s o f g o v e rn m e n t ’s p o l i ci e s a t st a t e e n t i t i e s a n d t h a t
t h e i s s u e s t h a t I h a ve b e e n c a l l e d t o a n s w e r t o i s a re s u l t o f
t h a t i n f o rm a t i o n .
I h a v e i n f o r m a t i o n r e l a t i n g t o i rr e g u l a r i t i e s co m m i t t e d
by some of the complainants as Advocate Soni refers to
them.

I w o u l d si m u l t a n e o u sl y p u t m y r e sp o n d i n g s w o r n

st a t e m e n t s p r o vi d e t h e s e d e t a i l s.
20

A d v o c a t e S o n i b e c a m e v e r y – e xt re m e l y a g i t a t e d
a b o u t m y re s p o n s e s t h e n e xt e n d e d s o m e st a g e h e r a i s e d h i s
v o i c e a n d u t t e r e d t h e w o r d s ‘ w i t h re s p e ct J u d g e f o c u s o n
w h a t yo u h a v e d o n e . ’
I n s h o rt w e d i d n o t a g re e o n t h e a p p r o a c h a n d w h a t
s h o u l d b e i n m y r e s p o n d i n g s w o r n st a t e m e n t h e t h e n b e c a m e
Page 69 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
e xt r e m e l y f r u st r a t e d a n d p a ci n g u p a n d d o w n t e l l i n g m e i n
angry and intimidating way that we should forget about a
w ri t t e n st a t e m e n t a n d t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o si m p l y cr o s s e x a m i n e m e w h e n I m a d e a n a p p e a ra n c e a t t h e c o m m i s si o n .
C o n s u l t a t i o n st a rt e d a t h e m e .
I thought it would have finished by two.

I re q u e st e d

t o b e e x c u s e d b e c a u se w e w e r e n o t g e t t i n g a n y w h e r e a n d
Advocate

Soni

kept

on

b a d g e ri n g

me

with

haphazard

q u e st i o n o n e v e r y t h i n g a n d f r a n t i c a l l y t a ki n g m y a n s w e r s.
10

A t s o m e p o i n t h e ch a l l e n g e d m e t o f i l e a st a t e m e n t
and implicate someone whose name appears in one of the
m e m o ra n d a t h a t I h a v e w ri t t e n a t P R A S A .

I do not know

w h a t ki n d o f a n i n v e st i g a t i o n t h i s i s b u t cl e a rl y t h e r e i s
something wrong.
T h e co m m i s si o n h a s b e e n i n p o s s e s si o n o f a l l t h e
i n f o r m a t i o n re l a t i n g t o t h e i s su e s t h a t i n f o r m e d t h e i s s u a n c e
o f t h e R u l e 3 N o t i c e s a g a i n st m e , t h e a ff i d a vi t o f M s N g o y e
f o r m s t h e b a si s o f a l l a l l e g a t i o n s a g a i n st m e h a s b e e n i n
e xi st e n c e si n c e 2 0 1 8 .
20

A c c o r d i n g t o m e t h e r o l e o f t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s i s t o
c o n d u ct f u rt h e r e n q u i r e s o n i s su e s a ri s i n g f ro m a n y a ff i d a vi t .
It

does

not

r e q u i re

me

to

implicate

anyone.

The

w o rd

i m p l i c a t e i n t h e c o m m i s si o n i s u s e d i n cr i m i n a l l a w s e n s e .
I l e f t t h e i n t e r vi e w a f t e r a b o u t s i x h o u r s o f b e i n g
i n t e r r o g a t e d a n d i n m y vi e w b e i n g p e r s o n a l l y b e l i t t l e d a n d i l l Page 70 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
t re a t e d d e s p i t e t h e ve r y h o n o u r a b l e o ff i ce I o c c u p y a n d
d e sp i t e t h e p r o c e s s – p r o t e st s I m a d e .
When I left the boardroom, I informed Advocate Soni
t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o co m p i l e d o c u m e n t s w i t h a st a t e m e n t a n d
w a s g o i n g t o m a k e o n e o f t h o se – a n d t h a t o n e o f t h o s e w a s
t h e a u t h o ri t y o f t h e b o a r d .
board

had

made

c e rt a i n

I e a rl i e r i n f o rm e d h i m t h a t t h e
d e ci si o n s

with

regard

to

the

a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t M s N g o y e a n d M r D i n g i s w a y o a r e m a ki n g
a n d t h a t I d e e m i t re l e v a n t t h a t s u c h i n f o r m a t i o n s h o u l d b e –
10

s h o u l d b e b r o u g h t b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n .
S u r p ri si n g l y h e t o l d m e h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o p u r s u e
the issue of authority and that the – and then that – I think
h e w a s g o i n g t o – I w a s m a ki n g a c c u sa t i o n s a g a i n st h i m .
Ye s m y p a rt i n g w i t h A d v o c a t e S o n i w a s o n a s o u r a n d b i t t e r
note.”
T h a t i s t h e e xt e n t o f t h e a l l e g a t i o n s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M A K H U B E L E : N a t u r a l l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

O k a y.

W h a t – w h a t a re y o u r s u b m i s si o n s

on the way forward on the recusal application?
ADV SONI SC:

C h a i r p e r s o n a g a i n t h e q u e st i o n i s, w h a t i s

my role?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:

T h e r e a r e t w o i s s u e s t h a t o r d i n a ri l y p r e s e n t

t h e m s e l v e s w h e n a w i t n e s s c o m e s b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n .
Page 71 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
O n e i s t h e l e a d i n g o f e vi d e n c e a n d t h e o t h e r i s t o
look

at

e vi d e n c e

that

has

been

presented

by

other

w i t n e s s e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:

Now I have no intention of leading Judge

M a k h u b e l e b e ca u s e I d o n o t h a v e a st a t e m e n t .
c a n n o t l e a d h e r.

I si m p l y

I h a v e n o o b j e ct i o n t o M r N x a s a n a l e a d i n g

h e r o n w h a t e v e r h e w a n t s.
What I am required to do and that is my duty is to put
10

t o Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e w h a t t h e w i t n e s se s h a v e sa i d t o t h e
e xt e n t t h a t t h e y i m p l i c a t e h e r.

For the purposes of this

c o m m i s si o n a n d t o c o n si d e r o r t o p r e se n t t o y o u o r t o
c h a l l e n g e t h e c o r r e ct n e s s o r o t h e r w i s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e o r t o
a c c e p t t h a t i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t t h a t i s c o n si st e n t w i t h t h e
p r o b a b i l i t i e s.

That is my only role.

I do not have any other

ro l e C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV

SONI

SC:

And

so

the

q u e st i o n

of

a

recusal

of

s o m e b o d y w h o i s a s ki n g q u e st i o n s.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:
t h i s.

C h a i r p e r s o n c a n n o t a ri s e i n a si t u a t i o n l i ke

T h i s i s a n i n q u i si t o ri a l c o m m i s si o n C h a i r p e r s o n .

Of

c o u r s e , J u d g e M a k h u b e l e h a s ri g h t s, h e h a s t h e r i g h t t o a
l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e w h o i s h e r e t o p r o t e ct h e r b u t o n t h e
o t h e r h a n d C h a i r p e r s o n i t i s p a rt o f m y d u t y a n d C h a i r p e r s o n
Page 72 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
w e d o h a v e a ff i d a vi t s f r o m p e o p l e .
We h a v e d o c u m e n t s t o s u g g e st t o y o u w h e r e t h e t r u t h
p r o b a b l y l i e s. T h a t i s a l l m y r o l e i s a n d t h a t i s t h e r o l e t h a t I
i n t e n d f u l f i l l i n g a n d u n l e s s t h e r e i s s o m e b a si s t o s a y t h a t I
a m i n c a p a b l e o f – o f f u l f i l l i n g t h a t r o l e C h a i r p e r s o n I m u st b e
allowed to continue.
CHAIRPERSON:

I – okay thank you Mr Soni.

Mr N x a s a n a .

J u st w a i t f o r t h e s a n i t i s a t i o n o f t h e st a n d b e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e
Mr Nxasana somebody will come there and sanitise.
10

Mr

N x a s a n a h a v e y o u g o t a n y a u t h o ri t i e s t h a t y o u c a n r e f e r m e
t o t h a t d e a l w i t h a r e c u sa l o f a n e vi d e n ce l e a d e r i n t h i s t y p e
o f si t u a t i o n o r a n y b o d y t h a t c a n b e c o m p a r e d t o a n e vi d e n ce
leader?
ADV NXASANA:

Not at hand Chair I do not have.

I cannot

t h i n k o f a n y n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

We l l t h e J u d g e m i g h t b e a w a r e .

J u d g e M a k h u b e l e a r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y a u t h o ri t i e s t h a t o n e
can look at?
MS MAKHUBELE:
20

We l l C h a i r p e r s o n I l i st e n e d t o A d v o ca t e

Soni and I want the record to note that he has not denied
a n y o f t h e f a ct u a l a v e r m e n t s I h a v e m a d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MAKHUBELE: So now the only issue will be to deal with
t h e l e g a l b a si s.

I f yo u ca n a l l o w u s a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o g o

and…
Page 73 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h a ve a l o o k.
M S M A K H U B E L E : A n d h a v e a l o o k a t t h i s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K H U B E L E : S o – b u t – a n d I f e e l v e r y d i st re s s e d a n d
e m b a rr a s s e d w h e n m y a t t o r n e y a v e r y e x p e ri e n c e d p e r s o n
k e e p s o n c o m i n g t h e re b e ca u s e h e h a s n o t e v e n r e a d t h i s
a ff i d a vi t . N o w h e m u st …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u sh o u l d h a v e g i ve n i t t o h i m .
MS MAKHUBELE:
10

Chairperson he – he – he said I – this

a ff i d a vi t I f i l e d t h i s – o n F ri d a y – T h u r s d a y m o rn i n g .

Even

y o u r t e a m h a s n o t re s p o n d e d t o t h i s a ff i d a v i t . S o …
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o b u t t h e co m m i s si o n ’s l e g a l t e a m i s

n o t a s ki n g f o r a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o re s p o n d t o i t .

So you – you

a r e w i t h i n y o u r ri g h t t o s a y M r S o n i h a s n o t sa i d a n y t h i n g t o
deny what he said there.
M S M A K H U B E L E : Ye s t h e n I – t h e n I c o n s u l t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h e h a s n o t a s k e d f o r a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o

d o a n yt h i n g a b o u t i t b y w a y o f a n a ff i d a vi t .

So – so I am

q u i t e p r e p a r e d t o st a n d d o w n t h e m a t t e r s o t h a t m a y b e y o u
20

c a n g o o b t a i n a u t h o ri t i e s a n d M r S o n i y o u c o u l d l o o k a t
a u t h o ri t i e s si m p l y o n t h e q u e st i o n o f w h e t h e r a re c u s a l
a p p l i ca t i o n i n t h i s si t u a t i o n re l a t i n g t o a n e vi d e n ce l e a d e r i s
a p p l i ca b l e .

E ve n i f i t i s n o t t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r i n a

c o m m i s si o n a n y si m i l a r p o s i t i o n – a n y p e r s o n o c c u p yi n g a
p o si t i o n t h a t m a y b e co m p a r e d t o a n e vi d e n c e l e a d e r.
Page 74 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
We a r e a t q u a rt e r t o o n e .

I think I will adjourn until

t h r e e t o – t o – s o t h a t I ca n h e a r i s t h e r e a re a n y a u t h o ri t i e s
on that legal point.

Okay we are going to adjourn then – let

u s d o t h a t a n d t h e n w e r e s u m e a t t h re e o ’ cl o c k.
M S M A K H U B E L E : Th a n k y o u C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. We a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
A D V S O N I S C : . . . a l l h a s b e e n a s o rt o f p r o s e c u t o ri a l r o u n d .
10

T h i s i s t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
ADV SONI SC:

B u t t h e b e t t e r vi e w, I a m t o l d , i s t h a t w e d o

not play that role.
re p r e s e n t i n g

a

We a r e , i n f a ct , l e g a l p r a ct i t i o n e r s

p a rt i c u l a r

client,

in

other

w o r d s,

the

C o m m i s si o n .
A n d t h e t e st i n t h a t c a s e C h a i rp e r s o n i s; f i r st l y, y o u
cannot

have

a

r e cu s a l

of

somebody

who

is

not

a

d e ci si o n m a k e r. Yo u c a n a s k f o r t h e w i t h d ra w a l o f t h e p e r so n
b u t n o t t h e r e c u sa l .
20

T h e s e co n d l e a r n i n g t h a t c o m e s f r o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s
re s e a r c h o n t h i s i s, a s f a r a s l e g a l p r a ct i t i o n e r s g o , t h e r e a re
t w o b r o a d g r o u n d s o n w h i c h o n e ca n a s k f o r t h e w i t h d r a w a l .
O n e i s o n a c c o u n t o f c o n f i d e n t i a l i t y.
confidential

information.

And

the

second

They possess
is

that

the

e vi d e n c e o r t h e i r r o l e w i l l n o t b e a r o l e p e rf o r m e d i n g o o d
Page 75 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
faith.
I a m a l so t o l d C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t a s f a r a s - a n d I sa y I a m
t o l d b e c a u s e i t i s b e e n r e se a r c h e d .
C o m m i s si o n ’s

o ff i c e ,

that

as

far

It was done by the

as

these

matters

are

c o n ce r n e d , i t i s co m m o n f o r t h e r e t o b e d i s a g r e e m e n t s
d u ri n g

consultations

and

that

cannot

be

a

d i s q u a l i f yi n g

f a ct o r.
A n d t h e o v e rri d i n g q u e st i o n , r e a l l y, i s o n e o f t h e s e . I t i s
f a i r n e s s t o t h e C o m m i s si o n .
10

somebody

like

a

w i t n e s s.

I t i s f a i r n e s s o b vi o u sl y, t o
So

that

is

the

one

one

is

set

of

ci r c u m st a n c e s.
The

other

Chairperson

p r o s e c u t o ri a l ro l e .

i s,

where

g i ve n

a

T h e t e st t h e r e i s, t h e c o n st i t u t i o n s a y s

t h e p r o s e c u t o r m u st b e a n i n d e p e n d e n t p e r s o n b u t t h a t i s
t a k e n a t a d i ff e r e n t l e v e l o f i n d e p e n d e n c e .
A l l t h a t t h e y g e t t o e n s u r e i s t h a t a n i n j u st i c e i s n o t
done. They cannot, for example, hide information and things
l i k e t h a t . T h e re a re t h r e e ca s e s t h a t I w o u l d l i k e t o r e f e r y o u
to Chairperson.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
p r a ct i c a l l e v e l .

I will tell you what I propose we do at a
I t h i n k w h a t w e s h o u l d d o i s, o n e , t h a t I d o

n o t m a k e a d e ci si o n o n t h i s “ r e c u s a l a p p l i ca t i o n ” n o w t o d a y.
I fix a date this week by when the applicant in the
“r e c u s a l a p p l i c a t i o n ” s h o u l d f i l e w r i t t e n s u b m i s si o n s.

And it

i s a d a t e b y w h e n t h e C o m m i s si o n ’s l e g a l t e a m m u st f i l e
Page 76 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
t h e i r w ri t t e n s u b m i s si o n s a n d I m a k e a d e ci si o n o n i t a t a
l a t e r st a g e .
But also, there is a possibility if I deem it fit, I may
d e ci d e t o d e a l w i t h t h e m a t t e r a t a p ra ct i c a l l e v e l i n w h i c h
c a s e , i f I d e a l w i t h i t a t a p r a ct i c a l l e v e l , w h a t I h a v e i n m i n d
i s, i f t h e r e i s so m e b o d y w h o w i l l b e a v a i l a b l e t o t a k e o v e r
f ro m y o u i n re g a r d t o t h i s w i t n e s s t h e n I m i g h t n o t n e e d t o
d e ci d e w h e t h e r t h e a p p l i c a t i o n i s a g o o d . . . h a s g o o d g r o u n d s
o r n o t b e c a u s e t h a t w o u l d m e a n t h a t Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e ’s
10

c o n ce r n f a l l s a w a y.
A n o t h e r a p p ro a c h m i g h t b e t o d e ci d e t h e a p p l i c a t i o n ,
o k a y.

But in the meantime, what I have in mind is that we

could

proceed

today

but

you

would

not

lead

Judge

M a k h u b e l e ’s e vi d e n ce . Yo u w o u l d n o t q u e st i o n h e r t o d a y.
I w i l l g i v e h e r a c h a n c e t o p u t h e r si d e o f t h e st o r y a n d
t h e n I w o u l d h a v e q u e st i o n s f o r h e r a n d b e c a u s e w e a r e
st a rt i n g a t t h e t i m e t h a t w e a r e st a r t i n g , w e . . . I d o n o t t h i n k
w e w i l l f i n i s h a n y w a y.
Then we will adjourn to another date in order to finish.
20

I f o n t h a t d a t e y o u - I h a v e d e ci d e d t h a t y o u s h o u l d c o n t i n u e
a n d l e a d e v i d e n c e a n d q u e st i o n h e r, t h e n t h a t i s w h a t w o u l d
happen.
I f I d e ci d e d t h a t t h a t s h o u l d n o t h a p p e n , t h e n i t s h o u l d
be somebody else.

I f I h a v e d e ci d e d t h a t f o r p r a ct i c a l

p u r p o s e s a n d re a s o n s, w e w i l l j u st h a ve s o m e b o d y e l s e .
Page 77 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
T h e n J u d g e M a k h u b e l e ’s c o n c e r n w i l l f a l l a w a y.
is what I have in mind.

So that

Yo u h a ve s o m e t h i n g t o sa y a b o u t

that?
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n , I h a v e n o t h i n g t o s a y sa v e t h i s
t h a t i t w i l l e n s u re t h a t t h e e n t i r e d a y i s n o t w a st e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m-h’m-h’m.

J a , t h a t i s p a rt o f t h e

c o n si d e r a t i o n .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Where we use whatever time we have

t o d a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SONI SC:
address

Judge

A n d t h e n i n a s e n se C h a i rp e r s o n , i t w i l l
M a kh u b e l e ’s

q u e st i o n

because

as

I

u n d e r st o o d m y l e a r n e d f ri e n d , s h e d o e s n o t w a n t m e t o l e a d
h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d so t h a t co n c e r n f a l l s a w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, y e s, y e s.

Mr Nxasana, let me hear

w h a t yo u h a v e t o s a y t o t h i s p ro p o s e d w a y f o r w a r d .
A D V N X A S A N A : C h a i r, t h a n k y o u .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV NXASANA:

C h a i r, I t h i n k t h a t l e a v e s m e w i t h a

d e ci si o n t o m a k e b u t I t h i n k I h a v e , w i t h t h e l e a v e o f t h e
Chairperson,

have

to

consult

the

client

f i r st

and

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, d o yo u w a n t t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 78 of 108

then

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
ADV NXASANA:

B e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w w h a t ki n d o f

e vi d e n c e o r t e st i m o n y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Yo u w a n t t o t a l k t o h e r w h i l e I ’ m
here.
A D V N X A S A N A : Ye s. C h a i r, t h a n k y o u , o n c e a g a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV NXASANA:

C h a i r, i t w o u l d s e e m t h a t C h a i r, t h e r e f o re ,

t h a t m y r o l e w i l l e n d h e r e b e c a u s e I w i l l j u st b e a – I w o n ’ t
b e p a rt . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A s p e ct a t o r.
A D V N X A S A N A : I w i l l b e a s p e ct a t o r. T h e re i s n o t h i n g t h a t
I

meaningfully

c o n t ri b u t e

in

the

p r o c e e d i n g s.

And

u n f o rt u n a t e l y, J u d g e M a k h u b e l e w i l l a l s o , a g a i n , b e l e f t
w i t h o u t l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n a n d s h e w i l l h a ve t o p r o c e e d o n
her own.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV NXASANA:

Ye s.

I n t h e ci r c u m st a n c e s C h a i rp e r s o n , I

a m r e l u ct a n t l y w i t h d r a w i n g a s a t t o r n e y o n r e co r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. N o , t h a n k y o u M r N x a s a n a .
20

ADV NXASANA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Judge Makhubele, Mr Nxasana
h a s n o t b e e n a b l e t o s a y a n yt h i n g a b o u t t h e p ro p o s e d w a y
forward because he is withdrawing.

A r e y o u a b l e t o sa y

a n yt h i n g a b o u t i t ? I a c c e p t , o f c o u r s e , t h a t i t m e a n s t h a t y o u
a r e w i t h o u t l e g a l re p r e s e n t a t i o n .

That I accept.

Page 79 of 108

That is the

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

We l l , i f t h a t i s t h e p o si t i o n w h e r e

Chair wants to put me, there is nothing I can do but I can... I
w i l l h a v e t o a d d r e s s o n y o u t h a t , t h a t m y b e st e ff o rt s t o
e x e r ci s e m y co n st i t u t i o n a l ri g h t s a r e b e i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : A r e b e i n g u n d e r m i n e d C h a i rp e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
10

Yo u h a ve n o t m a d e a r u l i n g .

Yo u

h a ve m a d e p ro p o s a l s b u t n o n e o f t h o s e p r o p o s a l s, o b vi o u sl y,
w o u l d h a v e s u i t e d m y a t t o r n e y b e c a u s e h e w o u l d h a v e t o si t
here and...
T h e r e g u l a t i o n s s a y h e m u st a s si st m e a ct i v e a n d u n l e s s
I a m r e a d i n g t h e w r o n g l e g i sl a t i o n .

So for me to pay an

a t t o r n e y. . . y o u c a n i m a g i n e w h a t h i s f e e s a r e .

To c o m e a n d

si t h e r e a n d j u st . . . i t i s n o t f a i r C h a i r p e r s o n . I m u st s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

If I have enough time, I can and...

a n d t h e n a g a i n , i t w i l l b e w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a n yt h i n g l e g a l l y
20

that renders me to be someone who is not entitled to legal
re p r e s e n t a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I f t h e f a ct t h a t I a m a j u d g e i s a

re a s o n , t h e n C h a i rp e r s o n m a k e a d e ci si o n .
w i t h i t b u t a s o f n o w I a m e x p o se d .
Page 80 of 108

Then I will deal

I came here with an

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
a t t o r n e y w i t h t h e b e st i n t e r e st a n d t h r o u g h o u t t h e d a y w e . . .
e v e r yt h i n g w i l l s a y a n d I m u st r e p e a t w h a t I h a ve s t at e d i n
m y a ff i d a vi t .
M y l e t t e r. . . i n t h e h i st o r y o f t h e C o m m i s si o n , t h e r e i s n o
m a t t e r t h a t a s si m p l e e x p l a n a t i o n o r a n yt h i n g a s d r a m a t i c
w i l l l a st t h e w h o l e d a y C h a i r p e r s o n b u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o rr y.

J u st re p e a t t h a t l a st p o i n t .

I

did not hear it.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
10

W h a t I a m s a yi n g , e v e n o n t h e 2 4 t h ,

m y m a t t e r l a st e d t h e w h o l e d a y b e c a u se m y a t t o rn e y s c o u l d
n o t r e a c h y o u C h a i rp e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e n o t c o n su l t e d
with me.
E v e n t o d a y, t h e s a m e w i t h M r N x a s a n a .

And I am

s a yi n g , I w a t c h t h e p r o c e e d i n g s o f t h e C o m m i s si o n . T h e r e i s
n o t o n e m a t t e r t h a t l a st o n e d a y, t h e w h o l e d a y.
But I accept Chairperson, whatever ruling you make, I
a m u n d e r y o u r h a n d s.

I w i l l si m p l y re q u e st t i m e t o a d j o u r n

a n d c o n si d e r m y o p t i o n s.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

H’m.

We l l , a s I s a y t h a t I a c c e p t t h a t m y

d e ci si o n t o d i s m i s s t h e p o st p o n e m e n t a p p l i c a t i o n m e a n t t h a t
s u b j e ct t o t h e “ r e c u s a l ”, t h e s o- c a l l e d “ r e c u sa l a p p l i c a t i o n ”
t h a t w a s t h e n m o v e d , t h a t m a y h a v e t o b e d e ci d e a t s o m e
st a g e .
B u t I t h i n k t h e w a y f o r w a rd w h i c h I h a v e c o m e u p w i t h
takes

care

of

your

c o n c e rn

when

Page 81 of 108

you

say

b e c a u se

of

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
c e rt a i n . . . p a rt i c u l a r l y w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 9 t h o f J u l y w h e n
y o u h a d a co n s u l t a t i o n w i t h A d v o ca t e S o n i .
Yo u h a v e a n o b j e ct i o n t o h i m b e i n g t h e p e r s o n l e a d i n g
y o u a n d q u e st i o n i n g y o u .

A n d I h a ve s a i d t h a t a r g u m e n t

d e ci d e l a t e r i f n e e d b e .
B u t w e c a n u se p a rt o f t h e d a y t o d a y f o r y o u t o t e l l m e
y o u r si d e o f t h e s t o r y a n d I w i l l a s k so m e q u e st i o n s a n d w e
do not... we probably will not finish but we will have used
p a rt o f t h e t o d a y.
10

We w i l l a d j o u r n t o a n o t h e r d a y.

A ct u a l l y, I d o h a v e a

p o s si b l e d a t e i n m i n d b u t w e m i g h t h a v e t o st a rt a t t w o
b e ca u s e t h e r e a r e o t h e r w i t n e s se s i n t h e m o rn i n g o n t h e
1 7 t h o f A u g u st w h i c h i s a M o n d a y a n d i t w i l l g o b e yo n d f o u r
o ’ cl o c k i f n e c e s s a ry, t o t r y a n d f i n i s h .
S o I a m j u st m e n t i o n i n g t o y o u w h a t i s i n m y m i n d , t h a t
w e m i g h t d o i t t h a t w a y. A n d i n t h e m e a n t i m e , b o t h y o u r s e l f
o r y o u r co u n s e l c a n f i l e w ri t t e n s u b m i s si o n s o n t h e “r e c u sa l ”
p o i n t a n d t h e l e g a l t e a m c a n f i l e t h e i r w ri t t e n s u b m i s si o n s.
And of course, I accept that because you are a judge,
20

y o u m a y b e h a vi n g m a t t e r s t h a t h a v e b e e n a l l o ca t e d f o r y o u
f o r t h a t p a rt i c u l a r d a y.
So if any adjournment is made to a specific date, it
w o u l d h a v e t o b e s u b j e ct t o t h e C o m m i s si o n c o n su l t i n g w i t h
t h e j u d g e p r e si d e n t t h a t o n t h a t d a y y o u c a n b e r e l e a s e d .
H e h a s p re v i o u sl y s a i d t h a t i f h e . . . o r p r e vi o u sl y h e h a d
Page 82 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
s a i d i f h e g o t a t l e a st t w o d a y s’ n o t i c e , h e w o u l d b e a b l e t o
make a plan.
S o i f w e a d j o u r n t o t h a t d a t e t o d a y, t h a t g i ve s a b o u t t w o
w e e k s’ n o t i c e .

M y e x p e ct a t i o n i s t h a t h e w i l l b e a b l e t o

re l e a s e y o u b u t i t c a n b e s u b j e ct t o t h a t . Ye s ?
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : C h a i r p e r s o n , yo u d i d n o t l i st e n t o m y
a p p l i ca t i o n i n i t s e n t i r e t y b u t y o u d i d i t p i e c e m e a l b u t i f y o u
h a d y o u w o u l d . . . I h a ve p r o vi d e d m y d u t y r o st e r a s a n n e x u r e
a n d t h i s w e e k, J P Ml a m b o re l e a s e d m e b e c a u s e I h a v e
10

re q u e st e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o J u d g e M a k h u b e l e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : N o , I w a n t t o s a y t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, no.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : . . . I c a n n o t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no.

a l l o c a t e s m a t t e r s.

H e i s t h e o n e w h o . . . o r t h e D JP b u t t h e

JP

that

has

indicated

the

The JP is the one who

work

of

the

C o m m i s si o n

is

i m p o rt a n t a n d t h a t h e w i l l d o h i s b e st t o r e l e a s e y o u w h e n
t h e C o m m i s si o n n e e d s y o u .
20

A n d I a m s a yi n g t h a t i f I a d j o u r n t h e m a t t e r t o a sp e ci f i c
d a t e , i t c a n b e o n t h e u n d e r st a n d i n g t h a t t h e C o m m i s si o n
will check with him and I do expect that he will do whatever
h e ca n t o m a k e y o u a va i l a b l e .
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : I a m n o t d e n yi n g t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, s o w h a t i s y o u r p o i n t ?
Page 83 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I w a n t e d t o t e l l y o u t h a t Ju d g e

M a k h u b e l e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

. . . w h e n I l e a v e h e r e . . . b e c a u se I

h a ve m y d u t y r o st e r n o w. Yo u d o n o t e v e n t o g o t o . . . I h a v e
m y d u t y ro st e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

W h a t I w a n t e d t o t e l l y o u i s, t h i s

w e e k, a s I si t h e r e , I h a v e b e e n t a k e n o ff a ro l l w h e re I a m
10

s u p p o s e d t o . . . o n We d n e sd a y, w e a r e a t t e n d i n g t o a c ri m i n a l
t ri a l w h e r e t h e a c c u s e d p e r s o n s h a ve b e e n w a i t i n g si n c e
D e c e m b e r f o r m e t o s e n t e n c e t h e m a n d i f I l o s e t h i s w e e k, i t
m e a n s t h e y w i l l st a y i n cu st o d y u n t i l m a y b e D e c e m b e r o r
e v e n n e xt y e a r.
S o w h a t e ve r y o u a n d J P n o w d e c i d e , t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t
m y j u d i ci a l f u n ct i o n s, w h i c h a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y, w i l l b e
h e l d a g a i n st m e t h a t I a m l a t e w i t h m y j u d g m e n t s, I a d j o u r n
m a t t e r s f o r l o n g p e r i o d s.
So I am on my own.

20

S o f o r m y b e st i n t e re st , o n c e I

l e a v e h e r e t o d a y, I h a ve t o g o a n d m a k e a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a
l o n g e r l e a ve C h a i rp e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . O k a y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

B e c a u s e t h i s m e a n s, t h e f i r s t , t o d a y,

t o m o rr o w i n c o u rt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 84 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I t i s p r e j u d i ci n g m e w h e r e I c a n n o t

c o n ce n t r a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
c o u rt .

To m o r ro w I a m s u p p o s e d t o b e i n

W h e n a m I g o i n g t o r e a d f i l e s f o r t o m o r ro w ? I m e a n ,

b e si d e s t h e f a ct t h a t w e h a v e a l r e a d y t a l ke d a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

A n d t h e n , i f y o u a re s a yi n g o n t h e

1 7 t h , f o r i n st a n c e , I m u st co m e h e r e a t t w o o ’ cl o c k.
10

In the

m o r n i n g , I m u st g o t o c o u rt a n d f o r a d a y b e f o r e , I m u st
k n o w c o n c e n t r a t e o n a d j u d i c a t i n g m a t t e r s.

It will not work

C h a i r p e r s o n . L e t m e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , h e w o u l d r e l e a se y o u f o r a d a y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: Let me talk to JP Mhlango and rather
t h a t c o n f l i ct p r e p a ra t i o n f o r s o m e t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

If it means two months of work

b e ca u s e i t i s b e a r i n g o n m e C h a i r p e r so n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I cannot... I am not... I cannot

m u l t i t a s k.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. That is fine.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : S o l e t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] I w i l l t e l l y o u w h a t w e d o .
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

I

am

s a yi n g

Page 85 of 108

that,

you

know

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , w h a t w e c a n d o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I d o n o t w a n t t o s e t y o u a n d JP

M h l a n g o o r s o m e c o l l i si o n c a u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But then there is me, then there are,

b e si d e s t h e l i t i g a t o r s, a n d t h e y h a v e t h e ri g h t t o h a v e t h e i r
t h e j u d g m e n t s d e l i v e r a t t i m e . L a st w e e k, I w a s si t t i n g i n t h e
o p p o s e d m o t i o n s. I h a v e p i c k e d u p s o m e j u d g m e n t s.
10

N o w, i f I m u st . . . n o w a n d a g a i n m a t t e r i s st o p p e d h e r e .
T h e n t h o s e j u d g m e n t s w i l l . . . a n d yo u w i l l b e t h e f i r st , I m e a n ,
as head of the second in command where you will check that
t h e se t h i n g s. . .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

This

Judge

Makhubele

hands

C H A I R P E R S O N : I s n o t g i vi n g j u d g m e n t s t i m e o u sl y.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s, C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : S o c a n w e . . . c a n I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

No,

this

is

what

I

am

s u g g e st i n g

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : I a m j u st p l e a d i n g t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no. That is fine but this is how I think

we should do it.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s.
Page 86 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:

I ca n f i x a d a t e su c h a s t h e 1 7 t h o n t h e

u n d e r st a n d i n g t h a t I ca n b e a p p r o a c h e d t o c h a n g e i t i f t h e r e
a r e g o o d r e a so n s t o ch a n g e i t t o a n o t h e r d a t e .
S o o n ce t h e re h a s b e e n t h a t c o n s u l t a t i o n , y o u c a n c o m e
b a c k i f t h e re a r e g o o d r e a so n s n o t t o p r o c e e d w i t h t h a t d a t e .
B u t i f , a f t e r a l l t h e c o n su l t a t i o n s, i t s e e m s f i n e , w e c a n st i l l
continue.
So it will accommodate you talking to the JP and putting
t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t y o u h a ve co m e u p w i t h a s w e l l . S o l e t u s. . .
10

I t h i n k w h a t I w i l l d o , I w i l l s a y t h a t y o u r si d e s h o u l d s u b m i t
w ri t t e n su b m i s si o n s o n t h e “r e c u s a l ”, t h i s. . . b y c l o s e o f
b u si n e s s, t h i s F ri d a y.
A n d t h e C o m m i s si o n ’s l e g a l t e a m m u st su b m i t t h e i r
w ri t t e n su b m i s si o n s b y cl o s e o f b u si n e s s, We d n e sd a y, n e xt
w e e k i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e “r e c u s a l a p p l i c a t i o n ”.
I f , i n t h e m e a n t i m e , I d e ci d e t h a t I ca n d e a l w i t h t h e
m a t t e r a t a p ra ct i c a l l e v e l , e v e r y o n e w i l l b e i n f o r m e d . A t t h e
e n d o f t h e t o d a y, w e w i l l a d j o u rn t o a s p e c i f i c d a t e , b u t o n
the

20

u n d e r st a n d i n g

that

one,

the

Commission

will

be

in

c o n su l t a t i o n w i t h t h e j u d g e p r e si d e n t .
Tw o , y o u m i g h t b e t a l ki n g t o t h e j u d g e p r e si d e n t , a s y o u
i n d i c a t e d . A n d y o u w i l l b e f r e e t o a p p r o a c h t h e C o m m i s si o n
w i t h a vi e w t o a n o t h e r d a t e b e i n g f i x e d i f t h e r e a r e g o o d
re a s o n s n o t t o st i c k t o t h e 1 7 t h , o k a y ?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Can we, maybe to... because you...
Page 87 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
re m e m b e r t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n I d r a f t e d t h e n o t i c e o n m y o w n
w i t h o u t l e g a l . . . y o u m a y sa y I a m a j u d g e b u t I d o n o t k n o w
e v e r yt h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , y o u w e r e s e n i o r c o u n s e l . [ l a u g h s]
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

When

it

is

a

matter

you

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u p r a ct i s e d f o r 1 9 ye a r s o r s o . [ l a u g h s]
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

When

it

is

your

m a t t e r,

you...

b e ca u s e w h e n w e w e r e d i s b u r si n g w i t h m y. . . b ri e f l y t h a t
10

m a y b e t h e w o r d “r e c u s e ” c o u l d b e a l o n g t h e c o n t e xt t h a t
A d v o c a t e S o n i h a d d e s c ri b e d, w i t h i n t h e f u n ct i o n s o f t h e
l e g a l ca st i n g b e ca u s e t h e r e i s a d e f i n i t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

S o i t i s w i t h i n t h e c o n t e xt o f t h e i r

f u n ct i o n s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

So I do not want us to belabour the

w o rd “ re c u s e ” . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o . I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : I t s h o u l d b e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , I t h i n k w e a l l u n d e r st a n d w h a t y o u

would like to achieve.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

What you want to achieve is that Mr Soni

s h o u l d n o t b e t h e o n e l e a d i n g y o u a n d q u e st i o n i n g y o u o n
Page 88 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
b e h a l f o f t h e C o m m i s si o n .
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Ye s, b e c a u s e t h e y a r e a p p o i n t e d b y

you.
CHAIRPERSON:

So

whether

we

ca l l

it

“r e c u s a l ”

or

“ w i t h d r a w a l ” . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: Withdrawal.
CHAIRPERSON:
that.

Ye s.

I t h i n k n o b o d y i s m a ki n g a n i s s u e o f

J a , I t h i n k M r S o n i w a s m e n t i o n i n g i t si m p l e b e c a u s e I

m a y h a v e m e n t i o n e d t h a t . . . t h e s o- c a l l e d “ r e cu s a l ”, y o u
10

k n o w.

B u t n o b o d y d o e s n o t u n d e r st a n d w h a t y o u w a n t t o

a c h i e ve .
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s, i t i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e su b st a n c e st a y s.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Within the definition of their tasks of

the legal team.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

B e c a u s e t h e y h a ve ce rt a i n f u n ct i o n s

and they are appointed by you.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Yo u c a n a p p o i n t a n y o n e , y o u c a n

recuse anyone.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But the one point I want to make in

that submission, Chairperson, that it is not only – the
reasons are not only what Adv Soni read into the record, it
Page 89 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
only concerns how he executed his functions before you
when he appeared here.
CHAIRPERSON:

On the 24th.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

On the 24th.

O k a y.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I was at pains not to use the word

lie.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
10

But there is no other description

unless if I speak in my mother tongue but in the language
that we are using, it is lies and I have provided evidence
and so it is not only what happened at the consultation but
also his submissions.
CHAIRPERSON:

On the 24th.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:
forward then.
20

On the 24th.

Ye s .

No, no, that is fine.

So that is the way

We have dealt with that.

Where I might ask

Mr Soni to assist now as you give me your side of the story
about these allegations and maybe as I ask questions is
where I need a certain document he might be able to say it
is to be found in his bundle at what page but otherwise he
w i l l n o t a s k y o u o n l y q u e s t i o n s o r l e a d y o u t o d a y.

So this

is an opportunity for you to just tell me your side of the
Page 90 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
s t o r y, y o u … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Well, Chairperson, I also do not

have documents and I think because when I came here the
only documents I had prepared – you remember the manner
of presentation of documents for witnesses is by emails.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, yes. Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
10

So I do not have bundles.

I may need to familiarise myself

with the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But then again, I will have to make

it – I will still, on my own – remember now I do not have an
a t t o r n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I d o n o t h a v e a n a t t o r n e y, I w i l l

have to request you, Chairperson, that is it – to make a
request to you that I am not refusing to give you my
version.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

B u t , y o u k n o w, I w i l l n o t f i n i s h

coming to this Commission, the approach that you want to
take to start today for one hour because remember you
acknowledged that there are certain documents that – I
think you, in your words you said the oral testimony was
Page 91 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
akin to …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Substantially the same as the affidavits.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But I have a right, Chairperson, to

look at that because when I look at the definition of
evidence in the room, it comprises of that oral testimony
and when you are sitting alone, I will not be there, the
legal team will be assisting you to summarise the evidence
and what – I am not saying I do not trust you but you are to
be assisted by the legal team if arguments and everything
10

when you write your final report.
That evidence will find its way there and I have not
been

given

Chairperson.

an

opportunity

to

have

a

look

at

it,

And it means you have also acknowledged

and you said arrangements can be made for me to get the
results of that whatever they obtained from the cell phone
service providers.

It means – and I think just before we

adjourned there were arrangements being made that that
will be provided. So it is – the picture will not be complete
a n d r e m e m b e r, C h a i r p e r s o n , I m e n t i o n e d a n o t e b o o k t h a t I
20

said I need to talk about. Here is the notebook.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, I do not remember hearing about a

notebook, ja. What is the notebook about?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

No, I said there is the evidence

that I want to supplement, it is contained …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

In the notebook.
Page 92 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

In the notebook which I must

obviously transcribe and maybe give to the Commission.
That is in relation to the evidence of Ms Ngoyi and Mr
Dingiswayo which part of it is in the statement of complaint
against Advocate Botes.
if

I

may

use

that

But what needs to be beefed up,

word,

is

what

is

in

here

because,

Chairperson, I can sit and relate the story to you but I
need an opportunity to properly file a statement.
And the point I am making is I need to – because
10

whether I proceed without – maybe when we adjourn here I
will be able to convince Mr Nxasana to still represent me, I
d o n o t k n o w, b u t m y r e q u e s t t o y o u , C h a i r p e r s o n , i s t h a t
can I supplement my statements and then testify on the
date that you will give and maybe - because it is evidence
of five people, I do not think we will finish in one day and
then I can …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, it is evidence of five people but I

will tell you what – as far as I am concerned, the evidence
is not, as far as I recall, is not wide-ranging, too wide20

ranging because to a very large extent Mr Dingiswayo and
Ms Ngoyi are talking about the same thing in regard to you
and

I

think

Mr

Dingiswayo

largely

just

confirms

or

corroborates what Ms Ngoyi says.
The

one

part

which

I

do

remember

that

Mr

Dingiswayo mentions is that at a certain time, I think
Page 93 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
November 2017 or maybe – I think November 2017, he
s p o k e t o P R A S A’ s a t t o r n e y s , h e w a n t e d t o t a l k t o t h e m
about the Siyaya matters.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

And the attorney said they had been told

not to talk to him.
that.

Ye s .

I think to a very large extent that is

I am not sure that he adds anything that Ms Ngoyi

has not been saying.
And then, of course, Mr Mogashoa, I do not know
10

how much of his evidence you have a problem with.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Well, with Mr Mogashoa, actually

talks about the termination of his mandate.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE: Who terminated his mandate.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE: Which is not me.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

So the only thing in his evidence I

can deal with is our interactions.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE

I think we had two meetings.

Ja.

MAKHUBELE:

That

is

what

I

will

have

to

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

And then Mr Botes, he has given his
Page 94 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
evidence and then there is Mr Achmat.

So but when it

comes to Ms Ngoyi, Mr Dingiswayo and Mr Mogashoa, it
seems to me that certainly with regard to Ms Ngoyi and Mr
Dingiswayo it is largely the same evidence covering the
same things.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Ye s .

No, we have – the actual –

because the issue is – well, now we are talking about the
m a t t e r, b u t I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja,

we

are

trying

to

look

at

…[intervenes]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

When you say it is five people, so I am

saying …[intervenes]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Ye s , t h e i s s u e w i t h M s N g o y i a n d

Mr Dingiswayo, the circumstances leading to the settlement
of that case.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, yes.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

That is contained in what I have

…[intervenes]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Provided.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

S u b m i t t e d t o P r e t o r i a B a r.

Ye s a n d t h a t i s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

So the only thing that I am going

to add there is what is in this notebook.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.
Page 95 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

When one has regard to their

evidence where they say when I arrived at PRASA the first
thing I asked them was these Siyaya matters.

I am going

to …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

To a d d t o t h a t .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

To l e a d n e w e v i d e n c e a n d p r o v e ,

Chairperson, that that was not the first thing.

A c t u a l l y, w e

had interactions about a whole lot of things and Siyaya
was not the issue.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

So that is when I am talking about

transcribing certain things from his group.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Which, Chairperson, in all fairness

must be in a statement so that the Commission is able to
take it back to Ms Ngoyi and Mr Dingiswayo to say this is
what he is saying.

I do not know if you will end with me

but …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Well, we have – you can leave it to the

legal team, they know how to do their job.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But it is something very serious,

Chairperson, the allegations I am going to make require
investigation and I will insist on an investigation.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h e n w e s e e t h e m o r w h e n w e h e a r

them.
Page 96 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

That is when they can take it from there.

Maybe what we should do is, if – well, one option is that I
can ask you some of the questions that I would like to ask.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

For today and still on when the day

when you come back you can still get a chance to put your
version as you would have put it today but you – or for
today you just answer those questions that are uppermost
10

in my mind.

That is in another way and I think that is

questions that you should have no difficulty answering.

Is

that alright? H’m?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, Chairperson …[intervenes]

Is it fine with you?

It is the two of us

talking.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, I thought it is …[intervenes]

No, no, no, I am proposing that if you

think you might have difficulty in just presenting your side
of the story this afternoon, maybe I should ask you some of
20

the questions that I want to ask and then you can answer
and on the day that you will come back you can still
present your side of the story the way you would have
b e e n p r e s e n t e d i t t o d a y.
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

I

do

not

have

a

problem,

Chairperson, but obviously on proviso that I am going to
Page 97 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
still get …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

A n o p p o r t u n i t y.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

To a t t e n d t o t h e i s s u e o f l e g a l

representation and that the legal representative will still
have an opportunity to do what they are supposed to do.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, no, I …[intervenes]

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But you are entitled to ask me

q u e s t i o n s a n d a s I s a y, I d o n o t h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t s b e f o r e
me but these matters are in my head.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Yo u c a n a s k m e a n d i f I n e e d – i t i s
something that I need to refer to a document I will tell you
t h a t c a n I h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

To p r o p e r l y l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t s

a n d a n s w e r y o u p r o p e r l y, C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

Well, another option is you may have

heard that we decided that we might have what I call
evening sessions in order to try and use as much time as
possible because we are limited in terms of time.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I made the announcement I think last

week, it has been in the media.

And by evening sessions,

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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
what I have meant is, we might have a witness who gives
evidence during the day from morning – or witnesses who
give evidence in the morning up to four o’clock and then
we start with another witness and go up to maybe seven,
half past seven or eight because we are pressed for time.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

That is something that I announced last

week.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So another possibility might be that we

adjourn now but sit before the end of this week.
s i t o n W e d n e s d a y.

We could

That would give you time to look at the

documents and whatever you want to look but we would
still – and then we would then have what I call an evening
session but we would still adjourn to a date.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:
17th.

Ye s .

Such as the one that I have mentioned,

So but we would just make sure that we have got

something that we have covered.
20

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

What do you say to that?

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Well, Chairperson, as someone

w h o k n o w s m y s t o r y, I w o u l d n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m t o d r a f t
my own statement.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, yes.
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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Even without – I am saying this

obviously without prejudice or …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o , I a c c e p t , j a . I a c c e p t , j a .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Because you may think you would

be able to do it but I may be able to tell my story but
obviously where my attorneys will help me would be with
cross-examination of the witnesses.
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE
10

Ja.

MAKHUBELE:

But

telling

my

s t o r y,

I

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE

Ja, it is not a problem.

MAKHUBELE:

I

think

you

have

read

my

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, I have.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

My documents.

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE: I articulate the issues.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , j a , j a .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
20

And because sometimes when you

still want to brief someone that process itself takes time.
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE

Ye s , y e s .

MAKHUBELE:

Yo u

have

seen

that

with

the

previous legal team and their witness.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But if I have sufficient time on my
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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
own

without

the

pressure

of

work,

I

promise

you,

Chairperson, you will have all my statements.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And I will be able to present to you

in the manner that you wish because I believe when I file a
statement you may say it may reduce the length of time
when I make oral presentation.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
10

So hence, Chairperson, I would

request that I – the date that you had in mind, at first, the
17th, the in between I will be able to draft – this is a
p r o m i s e I a m m a k i n g t o y o u , n o t t h r o u g h a n y i n t e r m e d i a r y,
t h a t I w i l l b e a b l e t o g i v e y o u t h e s t a t e m e n t . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . Ye s , n o , n o , I w a n t u s t o u s e

sometime this week to make some progress but I am not
saying we should abandon the 17th or any other date that I
might change to.
S o I a m s a y i n g i f t h e l e g a l t e a m , i f w e a d j o u r n n o w,
you get given the bundles, I think those are the ones
20

behind you, get given the bundles.

I suspect that a lot of

documents that are there are documents that have been
exchanged

that

you

know

because

the

statements

of

various witnesses and annexures have been sent to you
but you get to familiarise yourself with the bundles and, of
course, tomorrow – I mean the rest of the week the JP has
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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
given you – has released you.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So we would then say tomorrow you

have a whole day and then Wednesday we could agree like
five o’clock.

I think during the day I will hear evidence

from other witnesses about other matters when they stop,
then at five o’clock we start with you, you will have had
tomorrow to familiarise yourself properly with the bundles.
If by Wednesday when you come, you have prepared your
10

s t a t e m e n t , i t i s r e a d y, i t i s f i n e .

If it is not ready you can

finish it – you can make it available when …[intervenes]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, but we can continue.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

time

with

I do not have a problem with that.

Yo u d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
waste

Some other time.

It is just regrettable that we would

withdrawal

application

but

if

you

are

inclined to without making findings to release Advocate
S o n i a n d h i s s t e a d g e t s o m e b o d y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Or if we can proceed with you and

me.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And because that in itself, having t

make a decision which – I do not know which way it will go.
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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I may now want to still [inaudible –

speaking simultaneously] that decision.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I d o n o t k n o w, C h a i r p e r s o n .

No, no, you are right, that is why I

factored that option in.
J U D G E M A K H U B E L E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

That I might decide that I am not going

to decide the recusal application because for practical
purposes maybe I decide that I will let another member of
the legal team take over from Mr Soni for purposes of
leading your evidence and questioning you.

So there is

t h a t p o s s i b i l i t y, s o I a m l o o k i n g a t a l l o p t i o n s .
JUDGE

MAKHUBELE:

And,

Chairperson,

I

–

if

you

p r o c e e d i n t h e - y o u k n o w, b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t a n d y o u
already dismissed – I take it as an absolution from the
instance that I should have indicated that this person and
that person.
20

So I do not want to come back with the same

objection.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Having with evidence view to say

this particular one, here is evidence, Chairperson what do
y o u s a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . J a , j a , j a .
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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: So I am …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

So you prefer the other option.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I do not want you to – and maybe

a g a i n , C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u k n o w, s o m e t i m e s w h e n y o u a s k a
question without it being seen as perceived with ulterior
motives, it is a simple question.

It is a simple question to

say Ms Ngoyi and – I am not revisiting that but I am just
saying that when you see me coming back with evidence
w h e n i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t c a n b e d o n e a m i c a b l y, d o n o t
10

close my door and say Ms Makhubele is trying to delay the
functions

of

the

Commission

but

it

is

up

to

you,

Chairperson, to say what are the charges against this
woman and who is bringing them?
The person bringing them holds legal instructions
from PRASA and you can challenge me but I will beat the
challenge, Chairperson, because I have had access to
PRASA documents and I still have this PRASA document, I
know

who

did

work

for

PRASA but

I

do

not

want

to

embarrass you.
20

Hence, I am saying in your privacy with the people
that you have appointed, you just do your – I am not telling
you how to do your work.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But the last thing you want is me

bringing that hard evidence to you and you now having
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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
your option to now indulge me whereas when it is done in
an open manner to say no, yes, we acknowledge people
are getting instructions from PRASA, people are being
briefed by Ms Ngoyi, however – and then I accept and we
move on, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

But the aggression with which my

request is being made, it is a challenge, that when I get
back home, I have mountains and mountains of documents
10

from PRASA, I will simply bear your challenge.

So it is

s o m e t h i n g t h a t I w a n t y o u t o c o n s i d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE

No, no, that is fine.

MAKHUBELE:

So

that

we

deal

with

it

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

That is fine.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

…in an amicable manner and that

whoever you assign, you ascertain that Ms Makhubele is
not coming back with now evidence, Chairperson, I am not
saying – I do not even know who I can – I have already
20

disclosed that someone who would be representing me
here open up about his conflict.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

And I can also tell you that even if

Adv Maleka had not left, he would not be doing my case
because my board consulted with him and it is something
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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
that I was going to discuss, Chairperson, so I am saying do
not take what I am saying …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
JUDGE

That is fine, yes.

MAKHUBELE:

With

–

as

a

strategy

to

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o , n o , t h a t i s f i n e . O k a y, I t h i n k w e

are agreed about the way forward.

Namely that you will

file written submissions on the recusal application by close
of business on Friday this week.
10

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And the Commission’s legal team will file

their written submissions on the recusal application by
close of business on Wednesday next week.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And that we are going to adjourn now

b u t w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n t o We d n e s d a y t h i s w e e k a t f i v e
o’clock.

Yo u w i l l b e h e r e a t f i v e o ’ c l o c k a n d f o r u s o n t h a t

day to do what we were going to do.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Now which means if by Wednesday I

have made a decision at a practical level that somebody
else other than Mr Soni will be questioning you.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , m e t a l k i n g t o y o u .

Ye s , y e s .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

Answering your questions.
Page 106 of 108

03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s

but

in

the

meantime,

the

adjournment to Wednesday is out of the reality that we are
now at eight minutes to four o’clock.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And I want us to use the time that we

have and we have these evenings that I have decided upon
and you are quite happy to cooperate in that regard.
So if there is somebody other than Mr Soni that can
lead the evidence on Wednesday then that will happen.
10

If

not, you will get a chance to present your version, I will
have questions but you will have been able to go through
the documents as well, the bundles that the Commission
will give you. Alright?
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I have no objection.

Yo u h a v e n o p r o b l e m , j a .

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h a t , C h a i r p e r s o n .

O k a y.

JUDGE MAKHUBELE:

I will attempt to put together what I

can.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja.

No, that is fine.

If in the

meantime …[intervenes]
JUDGE MAKHUBELE: For our Wednesday engagement.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, that is fine, that is fine.

If in the

meantime, if by Wednesday when you com e here you have
put together – you have drafted a supplem entary affidavit
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03 AUGUST 2020 – DAY 243
or

statement

taking

into

notebook, that is fine.

account

the

contents

of

your

If you have not been able to, you

w i l l d o t h a t l a t e r o n b u t w e w i l l c o n t i n u e o n W e d n e s d a y.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:
so

the

legal

Ye s .

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

team

must

just

We are going to adjourn
make

sure

that

Judge

Makhubele has got all the necessary bundles so that she
c a n p r e p a r e p r o p e r l y f o r W e d n e s d a y.
We are going to adjourn then the proceedings on
10

that basis.

The idea of the 17 August still remains but

whether we adjourn to that date or not is going to be
something to be looked at when we finish on Wednesday
but if you want to start talking to the JP about the 17th.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I w o u l d .

Yo u m a y d o s o , s o t h a t m a y b e – a n d t h e

Commission will talk to him as well.
JUDGE MAKHUBELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . T h a n k y o u .

O k a y, w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n t h e n u n t i l

five o’clock on Wednesday this week. We adjourn.
20

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 4 A U G U S T 2 0 2 0

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