C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 3 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 2 6

20

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
P R O C E E D I N G S O N 3 J U LY 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

G o o d m o r n i n g M r C h a ir m a n . Th a n k y o u .

To d a y w e w is h t o p r e s e n t t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s N o n k u l u l e k o S i n d a n e .
B e f o r e y o u M r C h a ir m a n y o u s h o u l d h a v e E x h i b i t F F1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I d o h a v e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d th e r e w i ll b e a ls o – Ex h ib i t F F 8 a s

w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I d o h a v e .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . M a y t h e w i t n e s s b e s w o r n
in ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank

you.

P le a s e

a d m in is t e r

the

oath

or

a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
MS

TER ESSA

NONKULULEKO

S I N D A N E:

Te r e s s a

N o n k u lu le k o

Sindane.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c t i o n s t o m a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: N o I d o n o t .
20

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r th a t a l l t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u
w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : If s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y I tr u ly a ff ir m ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: I t r u ly a ffir m .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.

Page 2 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

M s S in d a n e

during the year 199 – ag 2013 around M ay 2013 you were a Director
G e n e r a l f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f J u s t ic e a n d C o n s t i tu t io n a l D e v e l o p m e n t ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H o w lo n g d id y o u r e m a i n i n t h a t p o s i ti o n ?
10

M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: U n t il M a r c h 2 0 1 6 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d b e f o r e y o u b e c a m e t h e D ir e c t o r

G e n e r a l f o r J u s t ic e w h e r e w e r e y o u e m p l o y e d ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: I w a s e m p l o y e d a t E s k o m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Right.

Yo u k n o w th e r e a s o n f o r y o u r

a p p e a r a n c e h e r e t o d a y is a b o u t t h e J C P S R e p o r t th a t y o u t o g e t h e r w i t h
y o u r c o l le a g u e s c o m p il e d ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o u l d y o u j u s t t e ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n q u i c k l y
h o w d i d it c o m e a b o u t t h a t y o u h a d t o i n v e s ti g a te t o g e t h e r w i th t h e
20

o th e r d ir e c t o r s g e n e r a l ?
MS TER ESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

O k a y.

W e w e r e a p p o i n te d

b y th e M i n i s t e r s o f t h e J C P S c lu s te r t o u n d e r t a k e th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f
w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d l e a d in g u p t o t h e l a n d i n g o f th e G u p ta c h a r t e r e d
a ir c r a f t in Wa t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e . T h is h a d a r is e n b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a
lo t o f p u b l ic o u tr a g e a r is in g fr o m t h a t l a n d in g a n d t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r

Page 3 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
o f is s u e s t h a t w e r a is e d a s t o h o w t h i s h a p p e n e d a n d s o it w a s f e l t th a t
a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n is n e e d e d . T h e r e l e v a n t M i n is t e r s o f t h e J C P S c l u s t e r
m e t a n d th e n t h e y is s u e d a n i n s tr u c ti o n t o u s a p p o i n ti n g u s a s th e
r e s p o n s i b l e te a m t o d o a n in v e s ti g a t io n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And how many were you who were tasked
w i t h t h is – w it h th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o i n v e s ti g a t e ?
MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:
w e r e a p p o i n te d .

Th e r e w e r e f o u r o f u s w h o

It w a s M r D e n n is D lo m o w h o w a s t h e – w o r k i n g f o r

S S A a t t h e ti m e a n d h e w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . I t w a s m y s e lf a n d I w a s
10

w o r k i n g f o r th e D e p a r t m e n t o f J u s t ic e a n d C o n s ti t u t i o n a l D e v e l o p m e n t
a t th e t i m e a s t h e D G . I t w a s C o m m i s s io n e r M o y a n e , To m M o y a n e w h o
w a s a t t h e ti m e w o r k i n g f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o r r e c t i o n a l S e r v ic e s
and

then

it w a s

Doctor

S w e m m e r, C l in t S w e m m e r

he

was

the

C o o r d in a to r f o r I n t e ll ig e n c e . H e w a s c o - o p t e d in t o t h e c o m m i t t e e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

W h a t w a s y o u r m a n d a te ? Yo u d e a l

w i t h i t a s t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . C o u ld y o u j u s t o u tl in e w h a t t h o s e t e r m s
were?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E:

Th a n k y o u .

The mandate

w a s ju s t to d e t e r m i n e th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s a s t o h o w w e e n d e d u p
20

w h e r e w e d id . S o u l ti m a t e l y f ir s tl y it w a s t o d e t e r m i n e t h e s e q u e n c e o f
events

prior

to, during

and

after

the

landing

of the

c o m m e r c ia l a i r c r a ft a t th e A ir F o r c e B a s e W a te r k l o o f.

chartered

Secondly to

a s s e s s t h e a c tu a l e v e n t s in th e l ig h t o f e s t a b l is h e d l e g is la t i o n ,
r e g u la t io n s , g o v e r n m e n t a n d d e p a r t m e n ts h e l d p r o t o c o ls .

T h ir d ly t o

in t e r v ie w a n d i n t e r a c t w it h r e l e v a n t p e r s o n s to e s t a b li s h f a c ts a n d

Page 4 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
f a c to r i n i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t w e r e c u r r e n tl y u n d e r w a y. A n d t h e n f in a lly
t o m a k e fi n d i n g s a n d r e c o m m e n d a t io n s t o a v o i d – t o a v e r t s i m il a r
o c c u r r e n c e s i n th e f u t u r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

S o n a tu r a lly y o u w o u l d th e n h a v e

had to come up with a method as to how you were going to go about
d o i n g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s . C o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n a s to t h e
m e t h o d t h a t y o u a d o p t e d in c o n d u c ti n g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E:

Th e r e w e r e t w o l i m i ta t io n s

t h a t w e s t a r t e d o ff w i t h . O n e i s t h a t t h e m a t t e r w a s a l r e a d y o u t t h e r e
10

u n f o l d in g in t h e p u b lic s p a c e a n d th a t is t h e c o n t e x t . A n d s e c o n d ly w e
w e r e g iv e n j u s t a li t t le o v e r a w e e k to d o t h is w h o l e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f a
w h o le e v e n t th a t e v e n i f s o m e p e o p le w e r e a w a r e o f i t w e in t h is t a s k
t e a m w e r e n o t a w a r e o f . S o t o g o b a c k a n d e s t a b li s h a ll o f t h a t w o u l d
t a k e ti m e w e u n d e r s t o o d e v e n a s w e s t a r t e d .

So we then sat around

the table and we said by the way not all of us were present at the time.
M r D l o m o w a s t r a v e ll in g s o h e w a s n o t i n t h e c o u n tr y s o h e w a s
a p p o i n t e d i n a b s e n ti a b u t h e w a s d u e to r e tu r n e i th e r t h a t d a y o r th e
f o ll o w i n g d a y.

S o w h a t th e n tr a n s p ir e d w a s w e s a t a r o u n d th e t a b l e

a n d w e s a i d n o w t h a t w e h a v e b e e n a p p o i n te d a n d n o w th a t w e a r e
20

f a c i n g v e r y li m i t e d ti m e li n e s h o w a r e w e g o i n g to d e li v e r o n t h is
mandate?

O b v i o u s ly th e a v i a t i o n s e c t o r i s q u it e a c o m p l ic a te d s e c t o r

a n d i t is n o t a s e c t o r t h a t w e a r e o p e r a ti n g in o r a t le a s t w e w e r e
o p e r a ti n g i n a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e . A n d t h e r e w a s a n e e d th e r e fo r e t o
g e t t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e p r o t o c o l s a s s o c i a te d w i t h t h a t a s w e l l a s
o b v i o u s l y t h e p r o t o c o ls i n d e fe n c e a n d t h e p r o t o c o l s i n D I R C O .

Page 5 of 130

We

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
t h e n r e a lis e d t h a t t h e t e a m w a s v e r y t h in in te r ms o f n u m b e r s a s w e ll .
I t ju s t m e a n t t h a t y o u h a d f o u r p e o p l e to d o a l l o f th is a ll a t o n c e in t w o
w e e k s t o g e t t h is w o r k fi n a l is e d . W e t h e n a g r e e d t h a t w e w i ll d o a l l t h e
w o r k to g e th e r w e w i ll s i t w i th p e o p l e to g e t h e r, w e w il l t a l k t o th e m
t o g e th e r, w e w i ll p r e p a r e d o c u m e n ts t o g e t h e r b u t in i ti a l ly b e c a u s e M r
D l o m o w a s n o t a r o u n d I th e n – I u n d e r t o o k th a t I w a s g o in g t o d o t h e
w r i t in g , t h e i n v i ti n g a n d o f a ll t h e p e o p le t h a t w e h a d – w e w o u l d
id e n t i fy o b v i o u s ly a s th e p r o c e s s u n f o l d e d b u t t h o s e t h a t w e r e e a s i ly
id e n t i fi e d w e t h e n s ta r t e d w r it i n g to th e m . I to o k – a n d I u n d e r to o k th a t
10

p r o c e s s fo r t w o r e a s o n s .

O n e b e c a u s e o f li m i t e d ti m e w e n e e d e d t o

g iv e p e o p l e a r e a s o n a b l e o p p o r t u n i ty t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u w e r e
c a l li n g th e m a n d a r e a s o n a b l e o p p o r tu n i t y f o r th e m t o m a k e t h e m s e lv e s
a v a i la b le a n d to r e s p o n d a n d o r t o s e n d s t a te m e n ts o r w h a te v e r i t is
t h a t th e y w o u l d u l ti m a t e l y c o n c l u d e t h e y w a n t e d t o d o . S o I to o k t h a t
r e s p o n s i b i li ty s o t h a t w a s a r e s p o n s i b i li ty b u t i t w a s n o t a f o r m a lis e d
r e s p o n s i b i li ty i t w a s a r e s p o n s i b i li ty t h a t I s a i d w i ll d o a n d i n a d d i ti o n
t o e v e r y t h in g e ls e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:
20

Th a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o d o .

S o p a r t o f h o w w e w e r e g o in g t o g e t t h i s i n v e s t ig a ti o n t o g e t r o l li n g
t h e r e w e r e a f e w th in g s t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o d o . W e w e r e g o in g t o d o
o th e r t h a n l e t te r w r i ti n g w e w e r e g o i n g t o d o i n t e r v ie w s o f i d e n t i fi e d
p e o p l e . W e w e r e g o i n g to t a l k to e v e r y o n e . W e w e r e g o i n g t o r e a d a ll
t h e d o c u m e n ts , p r o t o c o l s a n d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n in p la c e .
W e w il l t a lk t o c o m m i t te e s t h a t a lr e a d y w e r e s e t u p o r s o m e k i n d o f

Page 6 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t w e r e s e t u p i n d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n t s a r i s i n g o u t o f
t h is l a n d i n g o f t h i s G u p t a c h a r t e r e d a ir c r a f t a t t h e t i m e . O n c e w e w o u l d
h a v e b e e n d o n e w i t h t h a t w e w o u ld t h e n s i t a n d a s s e s s h o w m u c h
in f o r m a ti o n w e s ti ll n e e d e d a f t e r t a lk in g t o e v e r y b o d y t h a t w e w o u l d
h a v e i n te r v i e w e d a n d i f w e n e e d e d m o r e in f o r m a ti o n w e w il l i n te r v i e w
p e o p l e a g a in a n d a g a i n u n t il w e w e r e s a ti s fi e d t h a t w e h a d t h e
in f o r m a ti o n . O b v i o u s l y t h is w i th i n t h e s c o p e o f th e li m i t e d ti m e th a t w e
had.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w i f I m a y j u s t r e fe r y o u to – y o u
10

h a v e a b u n d l e t h a t i s m a r k e d E x h i b i t F F 1 i n fr o n t o f y o u w h ic h h a s y o u r
s t a te m e n t . I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o ju s t i d e n t i f y th e r e p o r t b e c a u s e w e a r e
g o i n g t o g o to h o w y o u d e c i d e d t o s p l i t u p t h e i n v e s t ig a t io n s i n t o
certain phases. Could you turn to page – I beg your pardon.
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: S o r r y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No,
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: I d o a p o l o g i s e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l M s N o r m a n d i d w e e n t e r t h is in t o t h e r e c o r d , t h is
exhibit?

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Oh no – not yet, no, no not yet

C h a ir p e r s o n w e h a v e n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e s h o u l d h a v e is i t n o t ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s , y e s . C o u l d y o u j u s t
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e fi le
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: FF1

Page 7 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
CHAIRPERSON:

C o n t a i n i n g Ms N o n k u lu l e k o S I n d a n e ’s s t a te m e n t w i ll

be marked Exhibit FF1.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e r e is C h a i r p e r s o n p l e a s e s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e n M s S I n d a n e i f y o u c o u ld j u s t ta k e –
t h e r e i s a d iv id e r th a t is m a r k e d 2 , n u m b e r 2 a n d o n c e y o u p a g e o n y o u
w i ll s e e n u m b e r 5 b e g i n s w i t h t h e J C P S C l u s t e r R e p o r t .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :
10

C o u ld y o u – a n d t h e n t h a t r e p o r t g o e s

r ig h t u p t o p a g e – w h e r e is t h e la s t p a g e – u p t o p a g e 3 4 .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: S o r r y y o u
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Do you identify?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Yo u s a id u p t o p a g e 3 4 ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 34 yes.
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: U n d e r d iv id e r 2 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : T h e r e p o r ts I h a v e g o e s u p
to page 30. Oh you mean your ….
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No, no, yes, yes our…

20

M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: N o t t h e p a g e n u m b e r in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s o u r p a g i n a ti o n .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: O k a y I k n o w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: J a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y a n d t h a t is t h e r e p o r t th a t c a m e o u t

Page 8 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s i t i s
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.

Thank you I see in paragraph

2 .1 o f t h a t r e p o r t y o u d e a l w i t h t h e p h a s e s .

Yo u d e c i d e d t o s p li t t h e

w o r k i n to – y o u g o t t h e p r e - a r r i v a l p h a s e .

Yo u h a v e g o t t h e a r r iv a l

p h a s e a n d y o u d e a l w it h t h e m . C o u l d y o u ju s t t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n h o w
y o u d e a l t w i t h t h o s e p h a s e s a n d w h o y o u i n te r v i e w e d ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l d o y o u – d o y o u n o t w a n t h e r t o i d e n t i fy t h e

r e p o r t fi r s t?
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S h e h a s j u s t i d e n ti f ie d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e g o in g i n t o i t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: She has…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d i d n o t h e a r th a t s o i t m u s t . . ;
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , y e s s h e h a s j u s t i d e n t i fi e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s S i n d a n e t h e d o c u m e n t th a t y o u h a v e b e e n r e fe r r e d
t o w h ic h a p p e a r s a t p a g e 5 a t th e to p th e r e u n d e r 2 w h a t is th a t
document?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E :

It is th e r e p o r t s t h a t w a s

is s u e d b y t h e M i n is te r s o f th e J C P S C l u s t e r a f t e r b e in g p r e p a r e d b y t h e
20

task team.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t t h e p r o d u c t o f t h e w o r k o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n

team that you were part of?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. I must have missed that Ms Norman.
MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

Page 9 of 130

Ye s , y e s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
Ye s .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n y o u h a d r e f e r r e d h e r t o p a r t ic u l a r – t o a

p a r t ic u l a r p a g e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . A t p a g e 9 .

Yo u h a v e g o t th e p r e -

a r r iv a l p h a s e .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: O k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o u ld y o u j u s t b r i e fl y o u tl in e w h a t – w h a t
y o u l o o k e d f o r i n t r y i n g t o g e t f a c ts a r o u n d th a t p h a s e ?
MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

F ir s t w e h a d t o u n d e r s t a n d

h o w th e Wa t e r k lo o f A ir B a s e w o r k s a n d b e c a u s e u n l e s s w e u n d e r s t o o d
t h a t w e w o u l d n o t b e a b le to g e t t o w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y v i o l a ti o n o r
o th e r w i s e .

T h e n a t u r a l r e a c ti o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o g o to t h e O R

Ta m b o a ir p o r t . S o t o g e t t o t h e Wa t e r k lo o f A ir B a s e w a s t h e f ir s t t h i n g
t h a t w e h a d t o u n d e r s ta n d h o w d o e s i t w o r k ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E:
20

S o t h a t w a s t h e p r e - a r r iv a l

p h a s e . S o is – i f p e o p l e – if a n y p e r s o n w a n ts t o f o r in s t a n c e a p p ly t o
c o m e t o S o u t h A fr ic a a n d a p p l y to l a n d a t Wa t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e w h a t
s h o u l d t h e y c o m p ly w i t h ?

S o t h a t w a s t h e f ir s t t h i n g .

Now the

Wa t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e a s i t w a s t h e n I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t s ti ll is
t o d a y b u t a s i t w a s t h e n it s r e s p o n s i b i li t y w a s g e n e r a l ly t o r e c e iv e f o r
in s t a n c e a ir c r a f t o f – o f H e a d s o f S ta t e s a n d D e p u ti e s – D e p u ty H e a d s

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
o f S t a t e s a s w e ll a s o b v i o u s l y d e f e n c e t o p b r a s s a s i t w e r e .

Now to

t h e n h a v e t h is a ir c r a f t la n d i n g th e r e w e h a d t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h a t
w o r k s . T h a n k y o u s o m u c h . H o w t h a t u n f o l d e d . S o t h a t w a s t h e f ir s t
thing.

S o o b v i o u s l y th e r e a r e c e r t a i n p r o t o c o ls t h a t n e e d e d to b e

f o ll o w e d . A n d o n e o f t h o s e p r o t o c o ls w a s o b v i o u s l y t o a n n o u n c e t h a t
r e q u e s t a n d t h a t r e q u e s t i s d o n e f o r m a lly th r o u g h a n o t e v e r b a l w h i c h
is d o n e fr o m a n o r i g i n a ti n g c o u n tr y i n t o D I R C O i n o u r c o u n tr y. D I R C O
is th e D e p a r t m e n t o f In t e r n a t i o n a l R e l a ti o n s a n d C o o p e r a t io n . S o th a t
request goes to DIRCO and then DIRCO processes it and once DIRCO
10

h a s p r o c e s s e d t h e y e i t h e r s a y th e y a p p r o v e o r t h e y d o n o t a p p r o v e . S o
w e h a d to u n d e r s ta n d th a t . S e c o n d ly w e h a d t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h i n g s
w o r k a t t h e Ai r f o r c e B a s e i ts e l f in t e r m s o f t h e s t r u c t u r e s . D o e s a n y o n e
h a v e t o b e a p p r o a c h e d a n d i f t h a t p e r s o n i s t o b e a p p r o a c h e d w h o is
t h a t p e r s o n , w h a t k in d o f le v e l a r e th e y i n te r ms o f s e n io r i ty a n d w h a t
a r e t h e y a p p r o a c h e d fo r ? W h a t s h o u l d t h e y b e d o i n g ?

T h e n th e t h i r d

is s u e w a s t o l o o k a t – i f th e p e o p l e a r e b r i n g i n g s o m e th i n g in t o t h e
c o u n tr y a s w o u l d b e n o r m a lly in t h e t r a v e l li n g g u e s t w h a t k i n d o f
c u s t o m s a n d e x c is e r e s p o n s ib il it i e s w o u l d b e i m p o s e d o n W a t e r k lo o f
A ir b a s e i n p a r t ic u l a r i n r e c e i v i n g t h o s e g u e s ts ? A n d t h e n w h a t k i n d o f
20

c le a r a n c e s a r e n e e d e d a n d i f t h o s e c l e a r a n c e s a r e n e e d e d w h o m u s t
a p p ly f o r a c l e a r a n c e – w h o m u s t g iv e th e c le a r a n c e , u n d e r w h a t
c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h e c l e a r a n c e m u s t b e g iv e n ? A n d t h e n w e a ls o h a d t o
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e n b e c o m e s th e r o l e o f D I R C O o t h e r t h a n j u s t
r e c e i v i n g a n o t e v e r b a l . A n d o n c e D I R C O h a s d e c i d e d t h a t th is is a n
a p p r o p r i a t e v is i t w h a t d o e s D IR C O d o i n t e r ms m o b i li s i n g a n d a r r a n g in g

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
with other departments to do?
c a t e g o r is a t i o n o f t h a t v is i t ?

What is necessary as per the

A n d t h e n o b v io u s ly t h e n l o o k i n g a t w h a t –

h o w w e r e t h e s e g u e s ts g o i n g t o b e le d o u t o f t h e W a t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e
a s i t w e r e ? S o t h o s e w e r e t h e k e y t h i n g s p e r h a p s t h a t w e h a d to f o c u s
o n b u t f o r a n y v is i t i n S o u t h A fr ic a w h e t h e r i t h a p p e n e d p r i v a t e l y o r
o th e r w i s e H o m e A ff a ir s p l a y s a v e r y s i g n i f ic a n t r o le . S o w e n e e d e d t o
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t r o l e H o m e A ff a ir s w a s e x p e c te d t o p l a y, w h a t r o l e d i d
t h e y a c t u a l ly p l a y i n te r ms o f i d e n t if y i n g a n d d is c h a r g i n g i ts r o le in
r e l a ti o n s p e c i fi c a ll y t o th e a ir c r a f t .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

N o w i n d e a li n g w i t h t h o s e p h a s e s

y o u r p r e - a r r i v a l , a r r i v a l , p o s t- a r r iv a l a n d e x i t p h a s e y o u w o u l d h a v e t o
r e l y o n in f o r m a t io n t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e g a t h e r e d . S o d i d y o u i n te r v i e w
p e o p l e o r d i d y o u – d i d s o m e o f t h e m s u b m i t a ffi d a v it s ?

How did you

g o a b o u t d o in g th a t ?
MS

TERESSA

NONKULULEKO

S I N D A N E:

We

d id

both.

We

in t e r v ie w e d p e o p l e a n d in d e e d s o m e g a v e a ff id a v i ts b u t le t m e s ta r t b y
e v e n b e f o r e g e t ti n g t o in t e r v i e w i n g p e o p l e .

We had to read the

p r o t o c o ls b u t m a y b e I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r I a m a ll o w e d to ju s t s te p
b a c k a b it b e c a u s e …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: B e c a u s e I t h i n k …
CHAIRPERSON: Step back and…
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E: It d o e s a l l o w f o r s o m e l e v e l
o f c o n t e x t to b e u n d e r s to o d i n th is c o m m is s i o n .

Page 12 of 130

P r i o r to t h e a c t u a l

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a p p o i n t m e n t o f th is ta s k t e a m t h e r e w e r e a lr e a d y a n u m b e r o f m e e ti n g s
t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g i n g o v e r n m e n t in N a t io n a l G o v e r n m e n t l e t m e n o t
s a y in g o v e r n m e n t a s i f a ll g o v e r n m e n t le v e ls .

B u t in N a t i o n a l

G o v e r n m e n t t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f m e e ti n g s a lr e a d y h a p p e n i n g n o li s t
o f w h ic h w a s th e m e e t in g b y t h e g o v e r n m e n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n s y s t e m s
G C I S t o t r y a n d r e s p o n d to t h e f lu r r y o f t h e e n q u i r y – e n q u ir i e s t h a t
w e r e a r is in g a s a r e s u l t o f t h is .

S e c o n d ly t h e r e w e r e m e e t i n g s th a t

w e r e b e in g in i ti a t e d b y N IC O C w i th in th e s p a c e o f N I C O C a n d N I C O C is
a n a g e n c y u n d e r s t a te s e c u r i ty t o d e a l w it h w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d .
10

So

t h e s e m e e t in g s w e r e a lr e a d y h a p p e n i n g . T h e r e w e r e a l s o m e e t i n g s o f
t h e – a n d th e s e m e e ti n g s w o u l d – w o u l d fe e d i n to t h e J C P S C l u s t e r
w h ic h I w a s c h a i r i n g a t t h e ti m e . S o a l l o f t h i s th e n c o m e s i n to c o n t e x t
w i t h h o w d i d w e d e a l w i th t h e s e i s s u e s ?
w o u ld l ik e t o f o c u s o n .

S o t w o m e e ti n g s t h e n t h a t I

O n e i t is t h e m e e t in g o f c o m m u n i c a t o r s

b e c a u s e t h a t m e e ti n g a l m o s t d r o v e t h e u r g e n c y a n d th e p r e s s u r e w i th
w h ic h t h is t h in g – t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d t o b e u n d e r t a k e n .

And of

c o u r s e M i n is t e r s w e r e a ls o m e e t i n g t o tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w a s
g o i n g o n a t t h e ti m e .

Secondly the NICOC was a meeting where a

w h o le r a n g e o f p e o p le , s e n i o r g o v e r n m e n t p e r s o n n e l i n t h e d e f e n c e
20

s p a c e i n p a r t ic u l a r S A P S , H o m e A ff a ir s a n d a ll o f u s i n c lu d i n g m y s e l f
w e p a r t ic i p a te d in t h a t m e e ti n g b u t t h e c o n v e n e r w a s N I C O C o f th a t
m e e ti n g . A n d i n t h is m e e t i n g i t w a s r e a ll y f o r t h e fir s t ti m e f o r m e t o
u n d e r s t a n d th e n a t u r e o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d t h o s e m e e ti n g s
h a p p e n e d p r o b a b ly e it h e r o n t h e 1 s t o r th e 2 n d o f – t h e 1 s t o r t h e 2 n d o f
M a y j u s t a s w e w e r e b e i n g a p p o i n te d o r j u s t b e f o r e w e w e r e b e i n g

Page 13 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
appointed.

S o a s a r e s u lt o f t h a t – o f th e s e m e e t in g s a w h o l e l o t o f

in f o r m a ti o n s t a r t e d fl o w i n g a n d w e s t a r te d u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e m a g n i t u d e
o f t h e p r o b le m t h a t h a d ju s t a r is e n a n d s o w h e n w e t h e n m e t a n d w e
w e r e a p p o i n t e d t h a t c o n te x t w a s – w a s a l m o s t li k e a fl o w fr o m t h e
o r i g in a l w o r k t h a t h a d b e e n d o n e i n t h e s e m e e ti n g s o r d is c u s s i o n s t h a t
h a d b e e n d o n e i n th e s e m e e ti n g s s tr a i g h t in t o w h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n
t e a m w a s u l ti m a t e l y g o in g t o s ta r t i n v e s t ig a ti n g .

S o th a t w a s th e

c o n te x t t h a t I j u s t w a n t e d t o p u t b e f o r e y o u . S o th e n t o c o m e b a c k to
y o u r q u e s t io n a s t o h o w d i d w e d o t h is ? W e id e n ti fi e d p e o p l e th a t w e
10

w e r e g o i n g t o i n v it e to t h e s e s e s s i o n s w h i c h i s t h e d is c u s s i o n s e s s i o n s
o r t h e in t e r v ie w s e s s i o n s . A n d t h o s e p e o p l e w e s t a r t e d o ff w i t h w h e r e
t h e fir s t d i s c u s s io n a b o u t t h e r e q u e s t t o h o s t t h is w e d d i n g s t a r te d
w h ic h w o u l d h a v e b e e n a t O R Ta m b o th e r e f o r e A C S A . S o w e i d e n ti f ie d
t o s p e a k w i t h th e C E O o f A C S A a n d l u c k il y t h e C E O o f A C S A w a s q u i t e
r e s p o n s iv e .

W h e n h e k n e w w e w a n t e d to s p e a k t o h i m h e r e s p o n d e d

i m m e d i a t e ly s o w e t h e n h a d a d i s c u s s io n w i t h h i m a n d t h a t d is c u s s i o n
w a s t e l e p h o n i c . T h e s e c o n d p e r s o n a n d I a m n o t g o i n g t o i t e m is e a l l o f
t h e p e o p l e th a t w e id e n ti fi e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : B u t th e s e c o n d p e r s o n th a t
w e i d e n t i fi e d w e n e e d e d t o s p e a k w i t h w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e M i n i s t e r o f
Tr a n s p o r ts a t t h e t i m e .

W e d id n o t in v i t e h i m a l m o s t i m m e d i a te ly b u t

w e i d e n ti f ie d h i m a n d w e k n e w m o r e o r le s s w h a t h is m o v e m e n ts w e r e
lik e l y to b e .

S o w h e n w e d i d c a l l h i m u l t i m a te ly h e m a d e h i ms e lf

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a v a i la b le a n d w e l i te r a lly d r o v e to w h e r e h e w a s a n d w e i n te r v i e w e d
h i m a n d th a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h a t. A n d w e r e q u e s t e d f o r a s t a te m e n t , h e
a ls o g a v e u s a s t a t e m e n t s u b s e q u e n t ly j u s t t o c o n f ir m o u r d is c u s s io n s .
T h e o t h e r p e o p l e t h a t w e i d e n ti f ie d w o u ld h a v e b e e n o b v i o u s ly t h e
G u p t a f a m il y.

I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a w h o le r a n g e o f o t h e r p e o p l e b u t

k e y t o th o s e p e o p l e w o u ld h a v e b e e n i n [i n d i s t i n c t ] A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e . A n d w h y A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e b e c a u s e h e i s a n o ffi c i a l – w a s
– I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e s ti ll is b u t h e w a s t h e o ff ic i a l r e s p o n s ib l e
f o r t h i s k i n d o f w o r k w h e r e i n t e r n a t i o n a l g u e s ts l a n d i n S o u t h A f r ic a o n
10

a s t a te v is i t k i n d o f a r r a n g e m e n t y o u w o u l d h a v e h a d t o a p p ly a n d – t o
h i m a n d h e w o u l d h a v e h a d t o a s s e s s a n d th e n t a l k t o th e D e p a r t m e n t
o f D e fe n c e a c c o r d i n g ly.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Just to take you a bit back.

Yo u

m e n ti o n e d t h a t y o u h a d t o i n v i te m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p ta f a m il y m a y I
ju s t – t h e r e is a b u n d l e – a s m a l l b u n d l e n e x t t o y o u w h ic h i s m a r k e d
E x h i b i t F F8 . J u s t – i f y o u c a n j u s t m o v e y o u r h a n d b a g it is j u s t t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i t – I t h i n k it is th e l e v e r a r c h f il e o n t h e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e , th e s m a ll o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O t h e r s id e o f y o u r b a g . H m .
20

M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: S o r r y …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e is n o t e d u c a t e d .
MS TER ESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

I d o n o t k n o w h o w th is

works.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . I f y o u c o u ld – i f y o u c o u ld F F 8
t u r n t o p a g e 4 4 p le a s e , 4 4 . A r e y o u t h e r e ?

Page 15 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

I f y o u tu r n o v e r t h e p a g e ,

p a g e 4 5 th a t i s – i s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n t h a t p a g e ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a t a p p e a r s t o b e a l e t te r th a t y o u w r o t e
t o M r T G u p ta .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: S o r r y I m is s e d th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y t h a t a p p e a r s to b e a l e t t e r t h a t y o u
w r o t e t o M r T G u p ta .
10

M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u a s k e d f o r c e r ta i n t h i n g s f o r h i m –
fr o m h i m . C a n y o u j u s t b r ie f ly s t a t e w h a t y o u w a n t e d fr o m h i m w h ic h
appears at page 46?
MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

O k a y.

F ir s t m a y b e w h a t

w o u ld h e l p
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

I s to j u s t it e m is e s o m e o f

t h e t h i n g s t h a t w e h a d r e q u e s t e d w h ic h a r e c o n t a in e d i n t h e l e tt e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

MS TER ESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

O n t h e f ir s t p a g e o f th a t

le t t e r u n d e r i te m 2 , u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 2 o f t h e l e t t e r.

Because we had

r e q u e s t e d a s w o r n s t a t e m e n t o r a n a ff id a v it o r a n a t t e s t a t i o n a ll
d o c u m e n ts i n h is p o s s e s s i o n t h a t h e m a y h a v e h a d .

A w r it t e n

c h r o n o lo g y o f e v e n ts a n d o f c o u r s e w h a t e v e r e ls e t h a t h e c o u l d h a v e
b e e n a b le t o g iv e u s t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e t h e m e i n t h e m a i n .

Page 16 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

B u t t h e n s p e c i f ic a ll y g o i n g

t o w h e r e y o u a r e r e q u e s ti n g m e t o g o f o r t h e p r e - a r r iv a l p h a s e w e w e r e
r e q u e s t in g M r G u p ta t o a n s w e r th e fo ll o w i n g q u e s ti o n s .
1 . I n p l a n n in g t h e w e d d in g w h i c h g o v e r n m e n t in s ti t u t i o n s u r g e n c i e s
a n d o ff ic ia ls d i d t h e y m e a n i n g t h e G u p t a f a m ily o r d id h e a n d a n y
o th e r m e m b e r o f t h e f a m ily a p p r o a c h a n d f o r w h a t p u r p o s e a n d
h o w o f t e n d id y o u m e a n in g t h e m a n d a n y o t h e r m e m b e r o f t h e
f a m ily a p p r o a c h o ff ic ia ls .
10

2 . Wa s i t in t e n d e d t h a t th e s e r v ic e s t h a t y o u w e r e r e q u e s t i n g w o u l d
be paid for and then
3 . D i d y o u r e q u e s t t h e u s a g e o f th e b lu e li g h t i n y o u r c o n v e y e s c o r t
a n d th e n
4. Did you make an approach to the Indian High Commission to
a s s is t i n f a c ili t a ti n g l a n d in g c l e a r a n c e s a t Wa t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e f o r
y o u r c h a r t e r e d a ir c r a f t J e t A ir w a y s ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o t h is a p p r o a c h w a s s o r t o f a s ta n d a r d

a p p r o a c h t o a ll th e p e r s o n s th a t y o u w e r e in t e r e s te d i n y o u w o u ld w r i t e
a l e t t e r to th e m , s o m e o f t h e m a n d t h e n y o u w o u l d g i v e t h e m a l is t o f
20

q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u w a n te d t h e m t o a n s w e r.
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

A n d I s e e a t p a g e 4 7 t o 4 8 th a t is a

r e s p o n s e fr o m Mr – a p p e a r s to b e a r e s p o n s e fr o m – i t d o e s n o t s a y
fr o m T G u p t a b u t i t s a y s t h e G u p ta f a m ily.
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E :

Page 17 of 130

Ye s .

But may I just

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
c la r i fy ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

Not everyone who was

in v i te d t o – w h o w a s id e n ti fi e d t o c o m e a n d t e s t i fy w o u ld h a v e h a d t o
b e w r i t t e n t o b e c a u s e o f t h e ti m e p r e s s u r e s i t w a s a g r e e d t h a t w e c o u l d
s p e a k t o th e D ir e c t o r s G e n e r a l a n d i d e n t i fy p e o p l e t o b e i n v it e d
e s p e c i a l ly t h o s e t h a t w e r e c o m i n g fr o m g o v e r n m e n t . S o I j u s t w a n t e d
t o c l a r if y t h a t a s p e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a lr ig h t .
10

M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E: H o w e v e r e v e n th o s e – s o m e
o f th e m w e w e r e a b le t o w r i te t o t h e m . T h o s e t h a t w e h a d i d e n t i fi e d
e a r ly b u t i f w e h a d n o t i d e n t i fi e d th e m e a r l y th e n w e w o u l d s p e a k t o t h e
D G ’s to f a c ili t a t e . I j u s t w a n t e d t o c l a r if y t h a t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Thank you.

And then – sorry you

c a n p u t t h e fi l e a w a y n o w a n d y o u g o b a c k t o – y o u c a n p u t F F 8 a w a y
a n d t h e n y o u c a n g o b a c k t o t h e m a i n F F1 , Ex h i b i t F F1 . Yo u m e n t i o n e d
t h a t – t h a t y o u h a d to s p e a k t o A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e . D i d y o u s p e a k to
A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s w e d i d .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: How did you invite him?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E:

H e w a s in v i t e d t h r o u g h h i s

D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l A m b a s s a d o r M a tj il a a t t h e t i m e .

W e h a d m e t w it h

A m b a s s a d o r M a t jil a i n p a r t s i n t h e e a r li e r m e e ti n g I s p o k e a b o u t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E:

Page 18 of 130

B u t w e a ls o h a d m e t w i t h

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A m b a s s a d o r M a tj il a i n t h e a c t u a l s e s s io n b e c a u s e w e a ls o h a d
q u e s t io n s f o r h i m a s t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t r e s p o n s i b le f o r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: J a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n w h e n y o u m e e t w i th A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e d i d y o u h a v e s t a n d a r d q u e s ti o n s s e t f o r h i m ?
M S T E R E S S A N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d j u s t te l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t t h a t

process, how did you embark on that process?
10

MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

W h e n w e – w e m e t w i th

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e it m u s t h a v e b e e n o n th e – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e
e x a c t t h e d a te s b u t I h a v e i t in m y o w n n o te s . B u t h e w a s in v i t e d a n d
t h e i n v it e w e n t t o h is D G a n d h e t h e n – w e g o t c o n f ir m a t io n t h a t h e w a s
in d e e d g o in g to c o m e a n d in d e e d h e d i d c o m e a n d m e t w i t h t h e t e a m
w h e r e w e w e r e s t a t io n e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. A n d w a s t h a t t h e o n ly t i m e y o u m e t
w i t h h i m o n t h is m a t t e r o r d i d h e – d i d y o u s u b s e q u e n tl y h a v e a n o t h e r
m e e ti n g w i th h i m ?
MS
20

TERESSA

K o lo a n e t w i c e .

NONKULULEKO

S I N D A N E:

We

met Ambassador

W e m e t h i m – c a n y o u g i v e m e ju s t a f e w m in u te s to

fi n d i t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS

TERESSA

NONKULULEKO

S I N D A N E:

We

met Ambassador

K o lo a n e o n t h e 1 s t M a y w h i c h w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r io r to o u r a p p o i n t m e n t
w h e n w e w e r e m e e ti n g a s th a t b i g m e e t in g i f y o u r e c a ll t h a t I s a id

Page 19 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
e a r l ie r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d . Ye s .
MS TERESSA NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

A n d s o s o m e o f th e

in f o r m a ti o n w e g o t h i m – w e g o t i t fr o m h i m t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s a n d
t h e n w e – b e c a u s e w e w e r e a l l th e r e i n t h a t m e e ti n g , b u t w e h a d n o t
f o r m a l ly b e e n a p p o i n t e d .
was

most important

T h e s e c o n d m e e t in g w a s th e m e e ti n g th a t

because

when

we

requested

to

meet

w it h

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e i t th e n tu r n e d o u t th a t h e h a d b e e n s u s p e n d e d o r
o n s o m e s p e c i a l le a v e a n d – a n d s o w e c o u l d n o t m e e t w i th h i m a l m o s t
10

i m m e d i a t e ly.
S o w e m e t w i th h i m o n ly o n 1 6 M a y w h e n w e w e r e fi n a l –
w h e n w e w e r e fi n a li s i n g t h e r e p o r t b e c a u s e h e – a t s o m e p o in t h e w a s
in D u r b a n a n d t h e n h e w a s h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e n d u r in g th is p r o c e s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. S o d o e s i t – d o e s t h a t m e a n t t h a t y o u d i d
n o t h a v e a m e e ti n g w i th h i m b e t w e e n th e d a te w h e n y o u w e r e a p p o i n te d
a s a t e a m a n d a d a te y o u s u b m i t t e d y o u r r e p o r t t o t h e M i n is te r s ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: W e d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d ?

20

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Ye s .

s u b m i tt e d o n th e 1 7 t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: O f M a y.

Page 20 of 130

O u r r e p o r ts w e r e

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: W e m e t w it h h i m o n t h e 1 6 t h
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: O f M a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h e n o t h e r t h a n
in t e r v ie w in g p e o p le d i d y o u h a v e a n y o t h e r s o u r c e o f i n fo r m a ti o n th a t –
10

t h a t y o u o b t a i n e d e i t h e r fr o m ( in d i s ti n c t) o r fr o m Wa t e r k l o o f A ir F o r c e
B a s e li k e r e c o r d i n g s ? D i d y o u l is t e n t o a n y r e c o r d in g s a n d i f s o w h a t
sort of recordings were those?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

We

s p e c i f ic a l ly

on

r e c o r d i n g s y e s w e d i d l is t e n t o r e c o r d i n g s . Th e r e w a s a r e c o r d in g – I
d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t i s s ta n d a r d p r o t o c o l . A t t h i s p o i n t l e t m e s a y
t h is . Th a t if i t i s i n f o r m a ti o n th a t i s c la s s i fi e d b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w
w h e t h e r i t is o r i t is n o t . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n is g o i n g
t o d o a b o u t t h a t i f I a m b r e a c h in g th o s e c l a s s i fic a ti o n r u l e s .
I s a w i n t h e d o c u m e n t th a t y o u – y o u h a d a lr e a d y r e q u e s t e d i t
20

and release …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l Ms N o r m a n s h o u ld k n o w w h a t th e p o s i ti o n is .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o , j u s t t o h i g h li g h t w h a t r e c o r d i n g s
a n d w i t h o u t g iv in g u s th e c o n t e n t .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.

Page 21 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

It

–

it

was

an

a u d io

r e c o r d i n g a n d I c o u l d a ls o s e t t h e c o n te x t o f t h e a u d i o r e c o r d in g .
was

an

a u d io

r e c o r d in g

of

t e le p h o n e

c o n v e r s a t io n s

It

b e tw e e n

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: A n d M a j o r G e n e r a l N ts h is i .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

S o t h o s e a r e th e r e c o r d i n g s y o u l is te n e d

to?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o t h e n - o n c e th e n y o u w e r e s a t is fi e d

t h a t y o u h a d m a d e c o n t a c t o r a t l e a s t in t e r v ie w e d e v e r y o n e t h a t y o u
thought was - was necessary to interview or speak to then you about
t h e c e r t a i n – y o u w r o t e th e r e p o r t ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Ye s b u t w e – t h e w r i t in g o f

t h e r e p o r t w e – a s w e – a s w e d i d a s e c ti o n w e w o u l d p r e p a r e s o m e
k in d o f n o te s o n th e p r e a r r iv a l – s o m e k i n d o f n o t e s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:
w r i t in g o f t h e r e p o r t.

Th a t w il l g u i d e t h e f in a l

S o y e s a f t e r w e h a d i n t e r v ie w e d e v e r y o n e w e

t h e n f i n a li s e d t h e – th e r e p o r t b e c a u s e y o u c o u ld a l m o s t s a y i t w a s
s t a g e w r i ti n g e v e n th o u g h t h e f u l l w r i t in g o f th e r e p o r t w o u l d h a v e b e e n
o n t h e l a s t d a y b u t t h e p r o g r e s s iv e w r i te u p w o u l d h a v e b e e n h a p p e n i n g
in t h a t c o n t e x t y e s .

Page 22 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . D id y o u h a v e a n y o ffic ia ls w h o
r e fu s e d to p a r ti c i p a t e i n th a t p r o c e s s a n d i f – if t h e r e w e r e c a n y o u j u s t
m e n ti o n t h e ir n a m e s ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: T h e r e w e r e n o o ffic i a ls w h o
r e fu s e d o u tr i g h t .

Th e r e w a s a n a r r a n g e m e n t w i th C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n .

A c tu a l ly I – I d o a p o l o g i s e . I a m n o t v e r y g o o d w i t h mi li t a r y t i tl e s b u t –
s o fo r t h e r e c o r d I – I d o n o t m e a n to b e d i s r e s p e c t f u l …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: O f h e r r e a l ti t le b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

For the purposes of my

response let me call her Colonel Anderson. So for – we had made an
a r r a n g e m e n t f o r C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n t o ta l k t o u s .

We had been to

Wa t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e o n t h e o n e d a y to u n d e r s t a n d t h e la y o u t a n d th e
s e t u p a n d a l l o f t h a t . S o – h o w e v e r o n t h e d a y t h a t th e t e a m w e n t t o
g o a n d s p e a k w i t h h e r i t m a y n o t h a v e b e e n th e e x a c t f o l l o w i n g d a y b u t
t h e d a y t h a t s o m e o n e w a s – w e a s t h e te a m w e r e s u p p o s e d t o g o a n d
s p e a k w i th h e r.
S h e w a s n o t a v a i la b l e o n th a t d a y b u t s h e d id n o t r e fu s e t o

20

s p e a k t o th e t e a m a s f a r a s I a m a w a r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r s h e

s u b s e q u e n t ly m e t w i t h a n y m e m b e r s o f th e te a m ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:
written.

Page 23 of 130

N o t u n t il th e r e p o r t w a s

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n – s o y o u w r o t e
the report and I see at page 33 you had recommendations and I would
lik e y o u t o j u s t t a k e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h r o u g h th o s e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s
a n d – a n d y o u r c o n c lu s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e s h e d o e s t h a t – i n t e r m s o f th e p e o p l e
w h o y o u i n t e r v i e w e d t h a t y o u r e g a r d e d a s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t t o – to
in t e r v ie w

fo r

purposes

of

your

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

-

I

am

sure

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e w a s o n e o f t h e m – w o u ld y o u j u s t i d e n ti f y t h o s e
who you regarded as important.
10

Say we did interview so and so and

t h o s e w h o y o u r e g a r d e d a s i m p o r t a n t t o i n t e r v ie w fo r p u r p o s e s o f t h e –
o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h o s e w h o c ir c u m s ta n c e s m i g h t n o t h a v e
p e r m it t e d y o u t o i n t e r v i e w t h e m b u t w h o s e e v i d e n c e a s i m p o r ta n t t h a t
m a y b e s u b m i t t e d a ffi d a v it s .
S o i t i s n o t e v e r y b o d y th a t y o u in t e r v i e w e d o r t h a t s u b m it t e d
an

a ffi d a v i t t h a t th o s e

th a t y o u r e g a r d e d

as important for the

in v e s t i g a t io n .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: T h a n k y o u . T h o s e w h o w e r e
a b s o l u t e ly n e c e s s a r y t o b e – t o b e in t e r v ie w e d w o u l d h a v e f ir s t a n d
foremost been Ambassador Koloane.
20

f a m ily.

I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e G u p t a

I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e M i n is t e r o r M in is t e r s w h o w e r e

m e n ti o n e d

in

the

request

and

in

the

conversations

between

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e r e c o r d e d c o n v e r s a t i o n ? A r e y o u r e f e r r in g to th e
recorded …
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n v e r s a ti o n ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Ye s

and

of

course

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t a r o s e fr o m o t h e r p e o p le w e i n te r v i e w e d w h o c o n fir m e d
c e r t a i n d is c u s s i o n s .

S o – s o i n t h e m a i n th o s e w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e

t h r e e – it w o u ld h a v e b e e n th e Pr e s id e n c y a n d th e Pr e s id e n c y f o r t w o
r e a s o n s . O n e b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a n o n g o in g r e f e r e n c e o f – to n u m b e r
o n e o r a b o u t n u m b e r o n e a n d – a n d s o w e n e e d e d to k n o w w h a t w a s
10

t h e s t o r y w i t h th e r e fe r e n c e to n u m b e r o n e .
S o t h e r e s t o f th e p e o p le w e r e i m p o r t a n t f o r u s to u n d e r s t a n d
a s p e r th e f ir s t a s p e c t o f t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w th e
a ir c r a f t la n d e d h e r e . S o t h o s e I w il l n o t g o t h r o u g h b e c a u s e t h e y a r e
c le a r ly s e t o u t i n th e r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d o – I d o th i n k th a t o n e o f t h o s e w h o y o u w o u l d
h a v e r e g a r d e d a s i m p o r ta n t is t h e o n e w h o w o u l d h a v e h a d t h e
a u t h o r i ty t o g r a n t p e r m is s i o n f o r t h e la n d i n g a t Wa t e r k l o o f ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h o w a s t h a t ? W a s t h a t N ts h is i ?

20

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s . Ye s , I t h i n k i t is M a jo r
G e n e r a l N ts h is i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N t s h is i?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: N t s h is i , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u d i d i n te r v i e w h i m ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s . W e d id .

Page 25 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u Mr C h a i r m a n . C o u l d y o u – y o u
m e n ti o n e d
P r e s i d e n c y.

the

Presidency

that

you

a ls o

had

to

approach

D i d y o u a c t u a l ly i n te r v i e w t h e P r e s i d e n t –

th e

fo r m e r

President?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

No we did not.

W e d id

s p e a k to t h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l i n t h e P r e s id e n c y a n d w e d id s a y th e
P r e s i d e n t ’s n a m e .

A t l e a s t n u m b e r o n e n o t h is n a m e in p e r s o n b u t

n u m b e r o n e k e e p s b e i n g r e fe r r e d t o .
10

W e w o u l d li k e to k n o w w h e t h e r

t h e r e is a n o p p o r t u n i ty to h a v e a d is c u s s i o n w i t h h i m a n d a s fa r a s t h e
D G t h e n s a i d is t h a t I t h i n k th e P r e s id e n t w a s n o t a r o u n d o r s o m e t h in g
a l o n g t h o s e li n e s .
I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t d e t a il b u t w h a t I d o r e m e m b e r
a n d – a n d w h a t w e d o s a y in t h e r e p o r t is t h a t t h e D G w a s fu ll y a w a r e
o f w h a t t h e is s u e s w e r e a n d h e m a d e h i m s e l f a v a i l a b le t o r e s p o n d t o
t h e is s u e s a n d h e th e n g a v e u s a w r i tt e n s t a te m e n t to t h a t e ffe c t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d a t p a g e 3 3 th e n y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l - I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h , s o r r y.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is – t h a t is i m p o r t a n t .

Yo u – y o u w a n t e d t o

in t e r v ie w t h e P r e s id e n t b e c a u s e h is n a m e k e p t o n o r r a t h e r r e f e r e n c e
k e p t o n b e i n g m a d e t o n u m b e r o n e w h ic h y o u w e r e m a d e t o u n d e r s ta n d
w a s a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e P r e s id e n t . Is t h a t r ig h t?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u d i d c o n v e y y o u r r e q u e s t t o th e D i r e c t o r -

Page 26 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
G e n e r a l in th e Pr e s id e n c y th a t y o u w o u ld l ik e t o i n t e r v i e w t h e
President?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: W e – w e c o n v e y e d w h a t w a s
c o m i n g o u t th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s – r e fe r e n c e t o n u m b e r o n e w a s - 0 w a s
c o m i n g u p a n d w e w o u ld lik e t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t th a t w a s a b o u t a n d th e
D G i n th e Pr e s i d e n t – in t h e P r e s i d e n c y w a s q u i te c l e a r t h a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t d o e s n o t d e a l w i t h t h o s e is s u e s . H e d o e s n o t g r a n t t h o s e –
t h o s e p e r m i s s io n s a n d a ll o f t h o s e th i n g s a n d – a n d a s a r e s u l t h e a s
D G i n th e Pr e s i d e n c y is h a p p y t o p r o v id e i n fo r m a t i o n w h ic h h e d i d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: M a y I a ls o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . N o c o n ti n u e .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: I d o a p o l o g i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w h a t I w a n t e d t o a s k is w h a t y o u w i ll d e a l w i t h
ju s t n o w.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Thank you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Thank you so much.

May I

a ls o a d d a n d p e r h a p s b e v e r y c a t e g o r ic a l a b o u t t h is b e c a u s e it is – i t is
20

– u n l e s s I c l a r i f y i t – it le a v e s p e o p le w o n d e r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: W it h a l l t h e p e o p l e w e s p o k e
t o s t a r ti n g w i th M i n is te r B e n M a r t i n s , A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e w h o w e r e
t h e tw o p e o p l e a ll e g e d l y w h o c o u l d h a v e s p o k e n to t h e Pr e s i d e n t . B o t h
o f t h e m h a d s a i d t o u s t h e P r e s id e n t d i d n o t i n s tr u c t t h e m , g iv e t h e m

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a n y i n s i n u a t io n th a t h e w a n te d th e m t o f a c il i ta t e t h i s a n d t h e r e f o r e t o
in s is t o n h a v i n g t o i n t e r v ie w th e P r e s i d e n t .
U n l e s s a n y o n e o f t h e t w o i n p a r tic u la r p e r h a p s I c o u l d a d d
e v e n t h e M i n is te r o f D e f e n c e a t t h e ti m e d i d n o t l i n k th e Pr e s i d e n t to
t h e la n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t .
comes

through

it

is

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e

in
and

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e .

W h e r e t h e l a n d in g - w h e r e n u m b e r o n e
this
–

t e le p h o n ic

and

I

am

c o n v e r s a t io n s
g o in g

to

say

b e tw e e n
between

I w o u l d h o p e i t i s h i m b u t in th e t e l e p h o n i c

c o n v e r s a ti o n …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

B e tw e e n

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d – a n d C o lo n e l – L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

As

w e ll

L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a n d M a j o r G e n e r a l N ts h is i , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s t h e – t h e p o in t y o u – th e la s t p o i n t y o u w e r e
a d d in g w a s t h a t a l t h o u g h y o u m a y h a v e w is h e d t o i n t e r v i e w t h e
P r e s i d e n t t h e f a c t t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d M in is t e r B e n M a r t i n s
a t t h e t i m e a ll in s is t e d t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d n o t g i v e n th e m a n y
20

in s t r u c t i o n s p e r s u a d e d y o u n o t t o i n s is t?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t - t h a t i s t h e p o in t y o u w a n t t o m a k e ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Page 28 of 130

T h a t is t h e p o i n t I a m

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
making, thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y ; b u t in te r m s o f w h a t th e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l i n t h e
Presidency said - (coughing) – are – are you okay?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: ( C o u g h i n g ) – I w il l b e . I d o
a p o lo g i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. O k a y, y o u m u s t j u s t t e l l – t e l l m e i f y o u
w a n t – y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f y o u w a n t u s to a d j o u r n …
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r a fe w m i n u t e s . O k a y.
10

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: I w il l b e fi n e . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t.

Just repeat what the DG in the

P r e s i d e n c y s a i d . Yo u d id s a y i t . I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d i t a g a in .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Th a n k y o u .

Th e D G i n th e

P r e s i d e n c y s a i d – le t m e – l e t m e s te p b a c k a b i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

When we approached the

D G i n t h e P r e s id e n c y w e s a id o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t k e e p s c o m i n g u p is
n u m b e r o n e . W e ta k e i t b e c a u s e i t is g e n e r a l ly u n d e r s t o o d t h a t n u m b e r
o n e is t h e Pr e s i d e n t . S o w e w o u l d li k e to k n o w w h e th e r th e P r e s id e n t
20

h a s a n y r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a r o u n d t h e l a n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t b e c a u s e I d o
n o t w a n t t h i s t h i n g t o b e u n d e r – t o b e m is u n d e r s t o o d a s i f w e w e r e
s a y in g – w e w e r e a s k i n g w h e t h e r t h e Pr e s id e n t a u t h o r i s e d t h e la n d i n g
o f t h e a ir c r a f t .
Our

q u e s t io n

was

w h e th e r

the

President

has

any

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s i n l a w o r o th e r w i s e t o a u th o r is e t h e l a n d in g o f t h e

Page 29 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a ir c r a f t w h e th e r i t is t h e G u p t a a i r c r a ft o r a n y o t h e r a ir c r a f t in th e
Wa t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e .

So – so that was the context of our question,

thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h a t d is t in c t i o n m a y b e s i g n i fic a n t b e c a u s e y o u

w e r e n o t a s k i n g w h e t h e r a t a fa c t u a l l e v e l t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d s a i d
a n y th in g t o a n y b o d y o r i n s tr u c t e d a n y b o d y a u t h o r is e d a n y b o d y w it h o r
w i t h o u t p o w e r s t o d o s o t o d o a n y th i n g .

Yo u w e r e a s k in g s i m p ly

w h e t h e r in t e r m s o f l e g is l a t i o n o r p r e s c r i p ts t h e r e is r e s p o n s i b i li ty o n
t h e P r e s i d e n t w i t h r e g a r d t o th e a u t h o r i s a ti o n o f t h e l a n d in g o f t h e
10

a ir c r a f t .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a t is – th a t is a n i m p o r t a n t d is t in c ti o n .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: A b s o lu t e l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: A b s o lu t e l y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u a n d y o u s a y t h e D G s u b m it t e d
a s ta t e m e n t. D i d h e s u b m i t a n a ff i d a v i t o r ju s t a s t a t e m e n t ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

T h is i s t h e p a r t w h e r e m y

m e m o r y f a ils w i t h m e w h e t h e r i t w a s a – a n a ffi d a v it o r a s t a te m e n t b u t
20

h e d i d s u b m it a d o c u m e n t i n w r i ti n g . I h a v e – i t is – i t w a s i n 2 0 1 3 s o I
c a n n o t r e c a l l e v e r y t h i n g b u t I a m s u r e t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n is a v a il a b l e i n
s t a te s e c u r i ty a n d – a n d w e c a n c h e c k t h a t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o j u s t t o c l a r i f y t h e p o i n t w e h a v e j u s t d e a l t w i th .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
S o y o u d i d n o t a s k t h e D G t o e s ta b lis h w h e t h e r t h e Pr e s id e n t h a d h a d
a n y d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h t h e p e o p le m e n ti o n e d in – w e l l w it h a n y b o d y w h o
m a y h a v e r e f e r r e d t o n u m b e r o n i n t h e c o n v e r s a t io n o r w h a te v e r ? T h a t
y o u d id n o t a s k ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: N o . W e …
CHAIRPERSON: About the (intervenes)?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: W e d id n o t a s k th a t q u e s ti o n
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

And let me – let me go

f u r th e r a n d – a n d g iv e t h e r e a s o n s w h y w e d i d n o t a s k th a t q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: W e d id n o t a s k th a t q u e s ti o n
b e c a u s e w e o u g h t to h a v e b e e n l e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: To t h e P r e s i d e n t d ir e c t ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: B y s o m e o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Not by people who are

t a lk in g a b o u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

But people who - we ought

t o h a v e b e e n l e d b y a s I in d ic a t e d p r e v i o u s ly i f A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e
h a d s a i d I w a s in s tr u c te d b y th e Pr e s i d e n t t h a t w o u ld h a v e l e d u s …

Page 31 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
CHAIRPERSON: Then you would have, yes.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: To t h e P r e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

I f M in is t e r M a r ti n s h a d s a i d

I w a s in s tr u c te d b y th e Pr e s i d e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: T h a t w o u l d h a v e l e d u s …
CHAIRPERSON: Then you would have, yes.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: To t h e P r e s i d e n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

So our view was what –

w h a t i s t h e b a s is o f u s g o i n g t o a s k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

T h e Pr e s i d e n t o n t h e b a s i s

o f p e o p le w h o a r e j u s t ta lk in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: B e t w e e n t h e m s e lv e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Te le p h o n ic a l ly s a y in g …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: T h e Pr e s i d e n t – n u m b e r o n e
k n o w s , n u m b e r o n e i n s tr u c t e d , n u m b e r o n e h a s n o p r o b l e m . T h a t is n o t
– I m e a n i t i s li k e lis t e n i n g t o g o s s i p s o m e w h e r e a n d t h e n g o in g a n d
a s k in g s o m e o n e w h o h a s b e e n g o s s i p e d a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

S o t h a t w a s th e c o n t e x t o f

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

O f t h e a p p r o a c h w e to o k t o

say …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: L e t u s lo o k a t o ff ic ia ll y w h a t
c o u l d th e P r e s i d e n t d o to s a n c t io n o r a u t h o r is e t h e l a n d i n g . If h e h a s
t h o s e p o w e r s p e r h a p s w e w o u ld h a v e th e n s p o k e n t o h i m a n d s a i d i n
10

d is c h a r g in g y o u r p o w e r s Mr P r e s i d e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: H o w d i d y o u d o i t b u t w e d id
n o t g e t t o t h a t le v e l o f i n q u ir y b e c a u s e i t – t h e p o i n t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n
e n d e d b e fo r e w e g o t t o th a t l e v e l o f i n q u ir y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u a t a n y s t a g e d u r i n g th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a w a r e
o f a n y c o n tr a d ic t o r y s t a te m e n ts w it h r e g a r d t o a n y o n e o f t h e p e o p le
w h o m a y h a v e r e f e r r e d t o n u m b e r o n e in s o m e o t h e r d o c u m e n t o r
s t a te m e n t w it h o u t d is c l o s i n g w h a t t h a t s o u r c e is o r a r e y o u n o t a w a r e
o f a n y th in g l ik e t h a t ?

20

Were there was one version and there was

another and by the same person.
I a m n o t a b l e t o s p e a k m o r e fr e e ly b e c a u s e y o u – y o u – ja
b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s I d o n o t k n o w i f th e y – w h a t t h e r e s ta t u s i s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: O k a y. I a m g o i n g t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is – i t is d i ff ic u l t .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: I a m g o i n g t o a s s u m e t h a t I

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
understand the question and therefore be able to …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: To a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

S o f o r g iv e m e i f I d o n o t

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t it m i g h t n o t b e c l e a r, j a .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s . I w o u ld r e q u e s t t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: I t b e a s k e d a g a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: B u t o n – o n t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

O r m a y b e – o r m a y b e t h is m i g h t h e lp .

A n y o f th e

i m p o r t a n t w it n e s s e s – i m p o r t a n t p e o p l e w h o y o u i d e n t i fi e d a s i m p o r t a n t
in y o u r i n v e s t i g a t io n w e r e – w e r e t h e r e a n y o f th o s e w h o m a y b e m a d e
c o n fli c ti n g s t a t e m e n t s ?

N o t a ll i n w r i ti n g m a y b e .

O n e i n w r i ti n g a n d

m a y b e a n o th e r n o t r e a l ly i n w r i t in g ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

O k a y. I - c o n fl ic ti n g m a y b e

w o u ld b e t a k in g i t t o o f a r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e i n c o n s is t e n t r a t h e r t h a n c o n f li c t i n g ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s m a y b e a v a r ia t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t c o m p le t e l y, ja v a r i a ti o n y e s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Va r ia t io n o f f a c ts y e s .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

There

were

d e f i n i t e ly

a

v a r ia t io n o f f a c ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

From time to time and I – I

w i ll w i s h t o a r t ic u l a te t h o s e v a r i a t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e – I th in k w e u n d e r s ta n d e a c h o t h e r.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: A lr ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Ye s .
10

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Thank you very much.

I

w o u ld w i s h t o – t o tr y a n d a r t ic u l a te t h o s e v a r i a ti o n s o f w h a t w o u ld
o th e r w i s e b e s t a te m e n t o f fa c ts .

This wording part – I do not know

w h e t h e r w o r d i n g is a p a r t y b u t a n y w a y – t h is w o r d in g p a r t o r ig i n a ll y i n
F e b r u a r y w h e n t h e fir s t e n c o u n t e r w i th S o u th A f r i c a h a p p e n e d i t w a s a
wedding.
W h e r e t h e v a r i a t io n o f f a c t s s t a r t f r o m t h is th i n g b e in g a
w e d d i n g t o t h i s t h i n g b e i n g a d e l e g a ti o n t o t h i s t h i n g b e i n g l ik e l y t o b e
a tt e n d e d – n o t l ik e l y - w il l b e a t t e n d e d b y f o u r H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d t h e n
la t e r b y S e n i o r M i n is t e r s a n d G o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e n l a t e r i t i s – i t is a
20

d e l e g a ti o n a s o p p o s e d t o a w e d d in g .

S o – s o t h is th in g w a s v e r y

w o o lly in – i n i ts r e a l n a t u r e .
S o – s o if – i f th a t is t h e q u e s t i o n y e s i n d e e d .

We did

e n c o u n te r th a t a n d – a n d t h a t w a s e n c o u n t e r e d w h e t h e r t h r o u g h f o r m a l
d is c u s s io n s w i t h A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e o r t h r o u g h li s te n i n g to t h e
r e c o r d i n g s o r t h r o u g h t a l k i n g t o o t h e r p e o p le w e in t e r v i e w e d a t th e

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
Wa t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e o r – b u t i n p a r tic u l a r t h r o u g h l is t e n in g t o t h o s e
r e c o r d i n g s a b s o lu t e l y y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a n k y o u .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e u n d e r s to o d e a c h o t h e r.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k - t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

Maybe

b e c a u s e y o u h a v e ju s t m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h in g w h ic h j u s t a l e r t e d m e t o
10

w h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d i n c o n s u l t a ti o n a r e y o u a w a r e t h a t th e r e w e r e
M i n is t e r s w h o w e r e i n v i t e d t o th e w e d d i n g ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s I a m a w a r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Yo u m e a n S o u t h A fr ic a n

M i n is t e r s ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o u t h A f r ic a n M i n is t e r s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s I a m a w a r e .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u j u s t te ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n a s to

w h e t h e r y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s a n y d e c i s io n b e c a u s e M r B e n M a r t i n s
m e n ti o n e d th a t i t w a s d e c id e d t h a t t h e M in is t e r s w e r e d i s c o u r a g e d
a c t u a ll y to – fr o m a t t e n d in g t h e w e d d i n g .

Ar e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t

m e e ti n g a n d h o w it h a p p e n e d t h a t t h e r e w a s s u c h a m e e ti n g a n d a
d e c is i o n t a k e n in t h a t r e g a r d ?

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n e i th e r o n
1 M a y – e x c u s e m e – o r o n t h e – a c tu a l ly I t h i n k i t w a s o n 1 M a y. I f I
a m m is t a k e n a b o u t t h a t I – I a p o l o g is e b u t t h e 1 s t o r 2 M a y.

The

m e e ti n g t h a t I r e fe r r e d t o e a r l i e r w h e n I s t a r te d t h e N IC O C M e e ti n g …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Where all of us attended.

T h i s m e e t in g w a s a N I C O C M e e t in g b u t w a s a t t e n d e d b y a l l J C P S
C l u s t e r D e p a r t m e n ts a n d f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f th is s e s s io n l e t m e j u s t – I
a m n o t g o i n g t o i t e m is e a ll th e J C P S C l u s t e r D e p a r t m e n t s …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

B u t I a m g o i n g t o i te m is e a

f e w t h a t a r e d ir e c tl y r e l e v a n t . I n th e J C P S C l u s te r – I w i ll c o m e b a c k
t o t h e q u e s ti o n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: I f y o u d o n o t m i n d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

I n th e J C P S C l u s t e r is t h e

D e p a r t m e n t o f J u s t ic e . I t is t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f S t a te S e c u r it y. I t is t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e , P o li c e , H o m e A ff a i r s , D I R C O a n d t h e n – o h a n d
20

S A R S – s p e c i fi c a ll y S A R S a n d t h e n t h e r e a r e m a n y o t h e r s th a t p l a y a
s u p p o r t iv e r o l e .

S o t h e M i n i s t e r s o f t h e J C P S C lu s t e r w o u l d – w o u l d

t a lk r e g u l a r ly o n is s u e s o f s e c u r it y a n d t h e r e f o r e th e D G s w il l t a lk
r e g u la r ly b u t t h e c o r e l i n e f u n c ti o n is t h a t o f – o f s ta t e s e c u r i ty w h i c h is
– w h i c h is d e li v e r e d u n d e r N I C O C .
N o w i n t e r m s o f t h a t N I C O C w o u ld h a v e c o n v e n e d t h is

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
m e e ti n g a s th e ir li n e f u n c ti o n a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r s t a t e s e c u r i ty a n d –
b u t i n in v i ti n g t h i s m e e ti n g t h e y th e n e x t e n d e d i t t o m e m b e r s o f t h e
J C P S C lu s t e r s – C l u s t e r w h ic h i s w h y I w a s t h e r e p r e s e n t i n t h a t
m e e ti n g . I n t h e m e e t in g m a n y t h i n g s w e r e d is c u s s e d . I n f a c t i f y o u d o
n o t m i n d I w a n t to j u s t tr y a n d g e t to i t . S o n o w I m u s t g o t o y o u r o w n
r e fe r e n c in g f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f y o u r d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

If you tell her what you are looking for she might

a s s is t y o u .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: I a m a l m o s t th e r e .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

DCJ.

On page 17 – no on

p a g e 2 1 o f y o u r r e fe r e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h , o k a y. T h a t is E X H I B I T 1 – F F 1 .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Is i t 2 1 ? J u s t b e a r w i t h m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: A l m o s t t h e r e . O k a y. I t i s o n
NS20.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t , p a g e 2 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

O k a y.

So on NS20 these

w e r e t h e d e c i s i o n s t h a t w e r e ta k e n b y t h e – b y t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t b r o a d
m e e ti n g .

It

was

–

it

was

quite

a

Page 38 of 130

b ig

meeting.

That

th e

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
D ir e c t o r s - G e n e r a l s h o u l d a d v ic e t h e ir M i n is te r s a g a i n s t a t te n d i n g th is
w e d d i n g i n S u n C i t y. I t w a s a l m o s t c o m m o n c a u s e t h a t m o s t M i n i s t e r s
– I – I w o u l d n o t s a y a ll o f t h e m b u t m o s t Mi n is te r s a n d i n p a r ti c u la r
m o s t S e n i o r M i n i s t e r s h a d b e e n in v i t e d t o t h is w e d d in g .
S o w e – th e c o n c l u s i o n s o f th a t m e e ti n g w a s t o e n c o u r a g e
M i n is t e r s n o t t o a t te n d t h e w e d d i n g e s p e c ia ll y g i v e n t h e e n v ir o n m e n t
that had just unfolded.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: Ye s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

There

were

many

o th e r

d e c is i o n s th a t w e r e t a k e n a t t h a t m e e ti n g a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r
y o u w o u l d w is h m e to d e a l w i th a l l o f t h e m o r y o u w a n t e d j u s t th a t o n e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o I w a n te d ju s t t h a t o n e b e c a u s e i t i s

r e l e v a n t t o – to w h a t w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h . C o u l d y o u t h e n t u r n t o t h e
p a g e w h e r e h a v i n g g a t h e r e d n o w a ll t h e f a c ts a n d t h e in f o r m a t io n ,
h a v i n g d r a f t e d th e r e p o r t th e n y o u r e a c h e d a p o i n t w h e r e y o u s a i d n o w
w e c a n m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a n d c o u l d y o u ju s t ta k e u s t h r o u g h
t h o s e a n d t h a t w o u ld b e o n … ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u n o t w a n t h e r to d e a l w i th th e fi n d i n g s t h e y

m a d e b e fo r e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
p a g e 2 8 t h e fi n d i n g s .

Oh, beg your pardon.

Ye s a t p a g e 2 8 –

Could you just deal with those?

Paragraph 4.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E: O k a y.

Page 39 of 130

Th a n k y o u .

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u c o u ld ju s t s u m m a r is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t n e e d to r e a d a l l o f t h i s o r t o m e n t io n a ll o f
them because the report is there …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e a b le t o r e a d i t b u t y o u c a n h ig h li g h t t h o s e

fi n d i n g s t h a t y o u b e l ie v e a r e i m p o r ta n t a m o n g th e fi n d i n g s t h a t y o u
made.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:
10

O k a y.

Thank you.

The

fi n d i n g s t h a t w e m a d e w e r e a s f o l lo w s : o f c o u r s e th e a ir p o r t s c o m p a n y
w a s c o r r e c t i n n o t y ie ld i n g t o t h e r e q u e s t o f th e G u p t a fa m i ly.
T h a t if a n d w h e n t h e G u p t a r e a l is e d t h a t g o i n g t h r o u g h a r e la t io n s h i p
is s u e i n o t h e r w o r d s g o i n g a n d ta lk in g t o t h e M i n i s te r a n d s a y i n g
n u m b e r o n e k n o w s i t a n d t h o s e k in d s o f t h i n g s d id n o t w o r k t h e y th e n
o p t e d to u s e a fo r m a l p r o c e s s w h ic h w o u l d h a v e r e q u ir e d a n o te v e r b a l
and all of that and we found that there was no formal note verbal and it
is c o n f ir m e d a n d i t w a s c o n fir m e d a t t h e t i m e b y th e p e o p l e w h o w o u l d
h a v e o t h e r w is e h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e n o t e v e r b a l i f t h e y h a d r e c e iv e d i t .
T h a t t h e r e w a s n o n o t e v e r b a l t h a t w a s r e c e i v e d . S o th a t w a s t h e fir s t

20

fi n d i n g t h a t w e m a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A g a i n , a g a i n ju s t o n t h e n o t e v e r b a l . I t h i n k y o u d id
s a y a n d o t h e r w i t n e s s e s s a i d I t h i n k y e s t e r d a y th a t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t
t h a t h a d t o b e r e c e iv e d . I t h a d t o b e r e c e i v e d b y Wa t e r k lo o f fr o m D e r c o
o r D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e fr o m D e r c o ?
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

N o . A n o te v e r b a l w o u l d h a v e b e e n

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
in it i a t e d b y a r e q u e s t in g c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes to Derco?
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

I n th is p a r ti c u la r c a s e i t w o u ld h a v e

been India.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

R e q u e s ti n g S o u t h A f r ic a to a l l o w t h e

d e l e g a ti o n l a n d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:
10

G e n e r a ll y a n o t e v e r b a l w o u l d n o t b e

f o r p r iv a te m a t t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : I t w o u l d b e f o r p u b lic .
CHAIRPERSON: State.
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

O r o ff ic i a l i f I m a y c a ll i t t h a t o ff ic ia l

tr i p s o r a r r a n g e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

A n d t h e r e f o r e i f th a t , i f t h i s w a s

r e g a r d e d a s a f o r m a l o ff ic i a l S t a te v is i t , i t w o u l d h a v e r e q u ir e d a n o t e
verbal.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O h t h a t w o u l d c o m e f r o m th e f o r e i g n g o v e r n m e n t ,

I n d ia in t h i s c a s e .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : I n to D e r c o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t w o u ld b e d i r e c t e d t o D e r c o ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. T h a n k y o u .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : A lr ig h t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w a s n o t th e r e ? T h a t w a s o n e o f y o u r fi n d i n g s ?
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

Ye s , d e f in it e ly i t w a s n ’ t t h e r e a n d i t

e v e n th e I n d i a H ig h C o m m i s s i o n c o n fir m e d t h a t i t w a s n o t d o n e . Th e y
s a i d i t w a s a n o v e r s ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u ? N o , y o u w e r e s t il l g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h o t h e r

fi n d i n g s t h a t y o u r e g a r d a s i m p o r t a n t . D i d y o u g e t t o u n d e r s t a n d a b o u t
h o w lo n g b e fo r e t h e a r r iv a l o f a n a ir c r a f t th a t w i ll b e c a r i n g H e a d o f
S t a te o r D e p u ty H e a d o f S t a t e , w o u l d n o t e v e r b a l b e s e n t ? D id y o u g e t
10

a n i d e a w h a t t h e p r a c tic e is ? I w o u l d h a v e i m a g i n e d t h a t i t s h o u l d c o m e
q u i te w e l l i n a d v a n c e n o r m a lly.
M S N O N K U LU L E K O

SINDANE:

I a m n o t r e s p o n d in g f r o m t h i s

in v e s t i g a t io n n e c e s s a r i ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E :

B u t w h e n a c o u n tr y is i n v i te d o r a

r e q u e s t is b e i n g m a d e to t h e c o u n tr y f o r s o m e th i n g t o h a p p e n , is g iv e n
q u i te in a d v a n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : A n d s o , a n d t h e s e a r e n o t t h e ti m e l in e s
20

fr o m t h e p r o to c o ls . I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h a t th e ti m e li n e s w e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

B u t I w o u l d i m a g in e i t w o u l d b e a

p e r i o d lo n g e r t h a n t h r e e m o n t h s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Ye s , a n d I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t s o m e b o d y a t
D e r c o w h o n o r m a ll y d e a ls w i t h th a t i f h e w a s m a d e t o u n d e r s ta n d o r

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s h e w a s m a d e t o u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h e r e w a s a S t a t e v is i t , th a t m u s t b e
t h e f ir s t th i n g h e o r s h e w o u l d b e l o o k i n g f o r b e f o r e d o in g a n y th i n g
e ls e .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : A b s o lu t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : A b s o lu t e l y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : S o t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e fir s t is s u e
that we found. The second, we went through the approval processes as
10

I h a d i n d ic a te d t h e p r o t o c o ls a n d a l l o f t h a t. I n n o a r e a i n th e r e le v a n t
p r o t o c o ls d e fi n e d s p a c e f o r M in is t e r s t o a p p r o v e o r s a n c t io n th e
la n d i n g o f a n a ir c r a f t . I t’s p u r e l y a fo r m a l p r o c e s s t h a t i s u n d e r t a k e n b y
o ffic i a ls t o a ll o w fo r th e la n d i n g o f t h e a i r c r a f t b e c a u s e t h e y w o u ld h a v e
lo o k e d a t w h a t is r e q u ir e d f o r th e a ir c r a f t ; I m e a n w h a t i s r e q u ir e d fo r a
d e l e g a ti o n a n d th e n th e y w ill g iv e th e n e c e s s a r y a p p r o v a l a n d th a t
r e s p o n s i b i li ty fe ll u n d e r t h e p o r tf o li o w h o s e o w n e r w a s a t t h a t ti m e
Ambassador Ramfolo, sorry Ambassador Kholoane.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

20

Th e t h i r d is s u e w a s o b v i o u s ly, t h e

c o r r e c t c le a r a n c e s o n l y in s o f a r a s t h e m il i ta r y b a s e w e f o u n d
c le a r a n c e s b u t I d o n ’ t w a n t th e s e c le a r a n c e s t o b e c o n f u s e d w i th t h e
f o r e i g n o p e r a to r ’s p e r m i ts b e c a u s e t h e f o r e i g n o p e r a t o r ’s p e r m i t w a s
n o t t h e r e b u t t h e fo r e ig n o p e r a to r s p e r m i t w o u l d h a v e a p p li e d i f t h is
a ir c r a f t w o u ld h a v e l a n d e d a t O R Ta m b o . I n t h e W a t e r k lo o f a ir b a s e w h a t
w a s r e le v a n t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e a p p r o v a ls t h a t M a jo r G e n e r a l N ts h i s i

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w o u ld h a v e h a d t o s i g n o ff a n d th e n t h e a ir c r a f t w o u l d b e a b l e to la n d .
O b v io u s ly h e w o u l d n ’ t d o th a t o u t o f c o n te x t. H e w o u ld r e c e iv e
in f o r m a ti o n fr o m D e r c o . H e w o u ld u s e t h a t in f o r m a ti o n t o th e n a p p r o v e
t h e la n d i n g a n d fr o m o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d o u r d i s c u s s i o n s w i th M a j o r
G e n e r a l N ts h i s i w h a t w e d is c o v e r e d w a s t h a t h e w a s q u i t e a p r u d e n t
p e r s o n . H e a s k e d s e v e r a l q u e s t i o n s t h a t w e r e r e l e v a n t a s to w h y i s t h e
w o r d i n g p a r ty. W e a r e n o t a ll o w e d to m a k e t h e w o r d in g p a r ty l a n d h e r e
a n d t h i s i s a n o ffi c i a l b u s in e s s a n d I m e a n th is is a n a r e a w h e r e o n l y
o ffic i a l b u s in e s s o f g o v e r n m e n t a n d o ffic i a l d e l e g a t i o n s o f g o v e r n m e n t
10

w o u ld l a n d a n d m a n y o th e r t h in g s th a t h e s a i d . S o w e f o u n d h i m to b e
v e r y r o b u s t in h o w u l ti m a t e ly d is c h a r g e s u s e r e s p o n s i b il it y b u t I g u e s s
w i t h th e p e r s u a s i o n fr o m , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r I w o u ld s a y h e s e n io r s
o r o t h e r w is e h e u l t i m a te ly g r a n t e d t h e n e c e s s a r y c l e a r a n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

W e a ls o fo u n d t h a t n o t o n ly w a s t h e

a ir c r a f t th a t l a n d e d w a s g iv e n p e r m is s io n t o la n d b u t t h e r e w e r e o th e r
s u p p o r t in g a i r c r a f t, t h e f ix e d w i n g s a n d h e l ic o p t e r s t h a t w e r e a ls o
a l lo w e d t o la n d a t t h e a ir b a s e . A n d w h ic h w o u ld o r d i n a r il y n o t b e
n o r m a l b u t it w a s d o n e .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E x c u s e m e M r C h a ir m a n , I s e e t h e ti m e is
quarter past.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I w a s a ls o l o o k i n g b u t m a y b e l e t h e r f in is h th e

i m p o r t a n t; m e n t io n i n g th e i m p o r t a n t f in d i n g s a n d th e n w e w i ll t a k e t h e
tea break.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : As C h a ir p l e a s e s . T h a n k y o u .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
M S N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E :

I a m n o t g o i n g t o c o v e r a ll o f th e m .

Then in that case but.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o n ly t h o s e t h a t y o u t h in k a r e i m p o r t a n t t o

a r ti c u la t e . O th e r w i s e w e h a v e g o t th e r e p o r t .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e th a t y o u t h i n k a r e i m p o r t a n t t o a r tic u la t e .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : A lr ig h t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S t i ll fr e e t o a r t ic u l a te t h e m .
M S N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E :

O k a y. P e r h a p s th e o t h e r fi n d i n g t h a t

y o u w i ll n o t s e e in t h e r e p o r t s i t ’s b e c a u s e a t t h e t i m e i t w a s f e l t t h a t i t
w o u ld b e s e n s i tiv e b e c a u s e i t w o u l d i m p a c t o n d i p l o m a ti c r e l a ti o n s a n d
t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e r o le t h a t w a s p la y e d b y t h e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n ,
t h e I n d i a n H i g h C o m m i s s io n . I w is h n o t t o s p e a k a t l e n g t h b e c a u s e I’ m
n o t a d v i s e d o n h o w I d e a l w i t h th o s e i s s u e s h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, h m .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : O n l y, t h e o n ly t h i n g I w o u l d l ik e t o s a y
is t h a t w e d id fi n d t h a t s o m e o f t h e a c t i o n s o f t h e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n
20

w e r e c o n s is t e n t w i th t h e w i ll in g n e s s o f h o w t h is tr ip o r w o r d in g p a r ty
w a s d e fi n e d fr o m ti m e t o ti m e d e p e n d in g o n t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s . T h a n k
you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w i ll p u t t h i s q u e s t i o n a n d y o u c a n in d i c a t e w h e t h e r
y o u f e e l c o m f o r t a b l e t o r e s p o n d to it . D i d t h e p i c tu r e t h a t e m e r g e d fr o m
y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s u g g e s ts th a t e i t h e r th e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r o r

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s o m e b o d y o r s o m e p e o p l e w i th i n t h a t o ff ic e m a y h a v e f a c il i ta t e d th e , o r
m a y h a v e d o n e t h i n g s n o t i n t h e w a y th a t w a s e x p e c t e d o f th e m in
r e g a r d t o t h e p r o c e s s f o r t h a t e n d e d u p i n t h e l a n d in g o f t h i s a ir c r a f t a t
Wa t e r k l o o f ? Yo u c a n i n d ic a t e if t h e q u e s t io n is o n e t h a t y o u w o u l d
r a th e r d e a l w i th a f te r g e t t i n g a d v i s e d
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

O k a y. To th e e x t e n t t h a t th is w a s a

w o r d i n g , p u r e w o r d i n g . T h e d i p lo m a t ic p le a s a n t r i e s t h a t w e r e b e in g
r e q u e s t e d w e r e n o t c o n s is t e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MS

N O N K U LU L E K O

SINDANE:

W it h

what

w o u ld

o r d i n a r il y

be

requested.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE: If I may leave it at that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you. Maybe you might want to

h i g h l ig h t w h a t y o u f o u n d i n p a r a g r a p h 4 . 8 a t p a g e 2 9 .
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

W e f o u n d th a t A m b a s s a d o r K h o l o a n e

a n d L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n i n f a c il i t a ti n g t h i s l a n d in g i g n o r e d t h e
w h o le r a n g e o f th in g s t h a t th e y k n e w n e e d e d to e x i s t b e f o r e t h is
20

la n d i n g w a s p e r m is s i b l e . W e f o u n d t h a t . A n d w e a ls o f o u n d t h a t th e y
were aware maybe not so much Anderson as much as Ambassador
K h o l o a n e a n d I w il l c l a r i fy b r i e fl y. T h e f a c t t h a t th is w a s s o h o o l e y
b e i n g a d e l e g a ti o n a n d , a n d , a n d is o n e c l a s s ic a l e x a m p l e t h a t t e l ls u s
t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g a m is s i n t h is w h o l e p r o c e s s . S e c o n d ly, in t h e
r e c o r d i n g s t h a t w e h a d a c c e s s to th e c o n v e r s a ti o n s b e tw e e n t h e tw o

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a n d t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n s b e t w e e n A n d e r s o n a n d N ts h is i c l e a r l y i n d ic a t e
w h a t o u g h t t o h a v e h a p p e n e d i n t e r m s o f w h a t k in d o f l a n d i n g ; w h a t
k in d o f p e r m i s s i o n w o u l d h a v e h a d to b e g iv e n . N o , n o r e tr a c t . W o u l d
p e r m is s io n h a v e b e e n g iv e n if th is w a s j u s t a p u r e w o r d i n g ? T h e
a n s w e r i s n o a n d N ts h i s i m a k e s i t v e r y c le a r t h a t th e a n s w e r is n o . A n d
t h e r e f o r e , a n d th e y k n e w i t . W h i c h is w h y t h e y w o u l d t h e n g r a v it a t e
fr o m V V I P ; t h e r e a r e M in is t e r s , t h e r e a r e Pr e s id e n t s a n d a ll o f th o s e
t h i n g s . S o th e r e w a s s e r io u s k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t w a s g o in g o n . W h a t I
c e r t a i n l y p e r s o n a l ly c a n ’ t s a y w i t h s u ffi c ie n t c o n fi d e n c e b e c a u s e I
10

d i d n ’ t s p e a k t o C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n , w o u l d b e w h e t h e r t h i s r e l a ti o n s h i p o f
c o m m o n k n o w l e d g e w a s e q u a l b e tw e e n t h e t w o p a r ti e s . T h a t I c a n ’ t
s a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h e p o s i t io n th a t t h e t e a m o r y o u r s e lf w e r e q u i te

c le a r t h a t fo r e x a m p l e i n t h e c a s e o f A m b a s s a d o r K h o l o a n e h e k n e w
e x a c tl y w h a t th e n a t u r e , tr u e n a t u r e o f t h i s tr i p w a s b u t m is r e p r e s e n t e d
t o o t h e r p e o p le w h a t i t w a s . Wa s t h a t e i t h e r o n e o f t h e fi n d i n g s y o u
m a d e o r if y o u d i d n ’ t m a k e w a s t h a t a v i e w y o u c a m e t o q u i te c l e a r ly ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : A b s o lu t e l y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m i g h t a ls o w a n t t o r e f e r to
p a r a g r a p h 4 .1 3 a t p a g e 3 0 .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : S o r r y fo u r p o in t ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 4.13, four point 13 at page 30.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , c o u l d y o u j u s t te ll t h e c h a ir p e r s o n ;

summarize what you found there in that paragraph.
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

S o w h a t w e f o u n d w a s t h a t o b v io u s ly

t h e C h ie f o f S t a t e p r o to c o l w a s w o r k i n g v e r y c lo s e ly w i th C o lo n e l
A n d e r s o n , L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n i n f a c il it a ti n g t h i s . A n d in
c a l li n g M a jo r G e n e r a l o r S e r g e a n t G e n e r a l ; S e r g e a n t M a jo r N t s h is i to
g e t t h e n e c e s s a r y a p p r o v a l s d o n e b a s ic a ll y. S o w h a t w e fo u n d w a s t h e
10

r e a l ly d i d m o r e t h a n w h a t th e y w e r e r e q u i r e d t o d o to e n s u r e t h a t t h is
la n d i n g h a p p e n e d . A l m o s t g o i n g s o f a r a s i g n o r in g t h e r u l e s t h a t a n d
t h e p r o to c o ls th a t a r e p u t t h e r e f o r th is th i n g t o h a p p e n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d y o u a ls o f o u n d i n 4 . 1 5 t h a t th e r e
w a s s o m e w h a t a b u s e o f h i g h e r o ffi c e .
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE:

Ye s , t h e r e w a s a s I in d i c a t e d e a r li e r

t h a t th e r e w e r e r e f e r e n c e s t o th e p r e s i – w e ll n u m b e r o n e l e t m e n o t
say the president. Number one, number one, number one. And we say
t h is w a s a b u s e b e c a u s e a t l e a s t n o t s o m u c h fo r A n d e r s o n b u t a t le a s t
f o r A m b a s s a d o r K h o l o a n e . W e in t e r v i e w e d h i m a n d h e d e n ie d h a v i n g
20

b e e n i n s tr u c t e d b u t , b y n u m b e r o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Was Colonel Anderson m ale or was female?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : F e m a le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : F e m a le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u s a y, y o u in t e r v ie w e d A m b a s s a d o r K h o l o a n e ?

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e d e n ie d ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : H a v i n g b e e n in s tr u c te d .
CHAIRPERSON: By?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : B y th e p r e s id e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : S o r r y I l o s t th e q u e s ti o n .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u w e r e d e a li n g w it h t h e a b u s e o f h i g h e r
o ffic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE: So, yes thank you very much. So what
w e f o u n d w a s t h a t t h i s r e f e r e n c e t o n u m b e r o n e k n o w s t h e Mi n is te r is
o k a y w it h i t m e a n i n g t h e M in is t e r o f D e fe n c e is o k a y w i t h it , t h e
M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t h a s b e e n i n s tr u c t e d b y n u m b e r o n e , e x c u s e m e .
W h e n w e i n te r v i e w e d t h e M i n i s te r o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d t h r o u g h h is o w n
s t a te m e n t h e c l e a r l y s a id n u m b e r o n e d id n o t i n s tr u c t . W h e n w e
in t e r v ie w e d u n fo r tu n a t e ly, M in is t e r M a p i s a N q a k u la a t th a t ti m e w a s n o t

20

a v a i la b le b u t h e r a d v is o r M r R a m a – o h I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h a t h is n a m e
was.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ramakgoba
M S N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E :

Ye s . H e w a s v e r y f o r t h c o m i n g w i th

in f o r m a ti o n a n d p a r t ic ip a t e d f u l ly a n d g i v e u s a l l th e i n f o r m a ti o n a n d w e
w e r e s a t is f ie d t h a t M i n is te r M a p i s a N q a k u l a w h o w a s t h e M i n is t e r o f

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D e f e n c e a t t h a t ti m e d id n o t a u t h o r iz e t h i s la n d i n g ; d i d n o t w a n t
a n y th in g t o d o w i th i t a n d a s a r e s u l t th is a s s e r t io n t h a t t h e y w e r e o k a y
w i t h i t w a s n o t tr u e . S o t h e y w e r e u s i n g t h e p o w e r o f t h e o ffic e o f t h e
M i n is t e r t o s a y t h e M in is t e r is o k a y s o t h a t t h is t h i n g c a n h a p p e n s o
t h a t t h e ju n io r o ffic i a ls c a n m a k e i t h a p p e n . T h e M i n is t e r o f t r a n s p o r t
h a s b e e n in s tr u c te d b y th e P r e s i d e n t s o th a t th e j u n i o r o ffi c i a ls c a n
k in d o f g e t a p ic t u r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a c t iv i ty h i g h u p t h e l e t te r a n d
t h e r e f o r e th e y n e e d e d t o d o s o m e th in g . A n d s o w e fe l t t h a t w a s a b u s i n g
t h e p o s i t io n a l m o s t th e p o s i ti o n s o f p o w e r o f t h e s e p e o p l e th a t I h a v e
10

id e n t i fi e d . A t l e a s t s p e c i fi c a lly i n r e la t io n t o th e t h r e e ; M i n is t e r M a p is a
N q a k u la . M i n is t e r B e n M a r ti n s a n d t h e P r e s id e n t . Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s th a t th e s t a te m e n t s t h a t
n u m b e r o n e o r t h e Pr e s id e n t k n e w t h i s o r h a d g iv e n in s tr u c ti o n s a n d
t h a t M i n is te r M a p i s a N q a k u l a h a d a u t h o r i z e d t h is , y o u c o n c l u d e d ; d i d
y o u c o n c l u d e t h a t th e y w e r e m a d e b y s o m e b o d y w h o k n e w t h a t t h a t w a s
not the case?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : A b s o lu t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .

20

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , c h a ir. A n d t h e n y o u m a k e , w e
m a d e a fi n d i n g , s o r r y a g a i n a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 2 2 . I w o u ld li k e to m a k e
r e fe r e n c e to t h a t p l e a s e . Th a t i s a t p a g e 3 2 .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Yo u s a i d f o u r ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 4.22.
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE: Hm.

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A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , c o u l d y o u ju s t h i g h l ig h t t h a t b e c a u s e
it is r e l e v a n t f o r o u r p u r p o s e s ?
M S N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E : O k a y. I h a d in d ic a t e d e a r l i e r t h a t t h e r e
a r e a n u m b e r o f p a r a g r a p h s t h a t h a d b e e n t h e r e o th e r t h a n t h e m a i n
c o m m e r c ia l a ir c r a f t a n d n o n e o f t h e s e a ir c r a f ts w e r e fu n d e d b y S A N D
a n d S A B S a s f a r a s w e c o u ld f i n d i n th e i n f o r m a ti o n th a t w e w e r e g iv e n
b u t t h e y w e r e d e fi n it e ly th e r e a t t h e W a t e r k lo o f a ir b a s e .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d y o u s a y t h a t th e y w e r e f u n d e d b y
t h e G u p t a f a m ily ?
10

M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : In t h a t f u n d in g ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n y o u a ls o d e a l w i t h t h e B M W s t h a t
w e r e u s e d i n t h e c o n v o y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , w h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t t h e m t h e r e ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : T h e y w e r e , a ll t h e v e h ic l e s o t h e r t h a n
o f c o u r s e t h e p o l ic e v e h i c l e s th a t w o u l d h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h th e n o r m a l
jo in ts o p e r a ti o n , a ll t h e v e h ic le s w e r e f u n d e d ; w e r e p r iv a t e ly f u n d e d b y

20

t h e G u p t a f a m ily.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
MS NONKULULEKO SINDANE: Right.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e a l s o in p a g e 3 3 p a r a g r a p h 4 . 2 4 t h a t y o u m a d e
t h is fu n d i n g , th a t it w a s c o m m e n d a b l e n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t h e m a n i p u l a ti o n

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b y a f e w p u b l ic s e r v a n ts i n t h e a ff e c te d g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s a n d
s tr u c t u r e s r a is e d c o n c e r n s w it h o u t f e a r, f a v o u r o r p r e ju d ic e . S o m e o f
t h e m r e p e a te d l y a s t o w h a t w a s tr a n s p ir i n g . H o w e v e r, th e ir c o n c e r n s
w e r e n e i t h e r a d d r e s s e d n o r a c t e d u p o n b y t h o s e i n p o s i ti o n s o f
a u t h o r i ty o v e r th e m b e n t o n m a n ip u l a ti n g t h e s y s t e m . Yo u c o n f ir m t h a t
is o n e o f y o u r fi n d i n g s ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s , a n d it is in t h e c o n t e x t t h a t I h a d
in d i c a t e d w h e r e in p a r ti c u la r N ts h i s i , a g a in I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e t i tl e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , N ts h is i , j a .
10

M S N O N K U LU L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s , h a d s a i d w e a r e n o t a l l o w e d t o d o
t h is . Th e r u l e s d o n o t a ll o w u s to d o th is a n d t h e r e s p o n s e s a n d t h i s i s
tr u e t h e r e c o r d e d c o n v e r s a ti o n , t h e a u d i o c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t h e w a s t o l d
h e d o e s n ’ t m a t te r t h e r e a s o n . I f D e r c o a p p r o v e s w e c a n d o i t. N o w a
D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e a s f a r a s I u n d e r s ta n d h a v i n g w o r k e d fo r
g o v e r n m e n t h a s it s o w n p r o to c o ls a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e r c o h a s i ts
o w n p r o t o c o ls . S o y o u h a v e t o fir s t s t ic k w i t h i t y o u r o w n p r o to c o ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : B e f o r e y o u c a n t a k e in s tr u c ti o n s fr o m
a n e x te r n a l d e p a r t m e n t e v e n i f t h e w o r k i n g r e l a ti o n s h i p is t i g h t . F ir s t

20

y o u a r e g u i d e d b y y o u r o w n p r o to c o ls fi r s t a n d fo r e m o s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u . T h e n i f t h o s e a r e t h e i m p o r t a n t

fi n d i n g s b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u h a v e a n y t h e n w e c a n t a k e a b r e a k a n d
t h e n w h e n w e c o m e b a c k t h e n s h e c a n d e a l w i t h r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a n d
a n y o t h e r m a tt e r s t h a t s h e m i g h t c o n s i d e r i m p o r t a n t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o n f in d in g s is th e r e a n y t h i n g y o u s ti ll ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o , n o I t h i n k s h e h a s h ig h l i g h t e d m o s t ,

a l l o f th o s e th a t a r e q u i t e c r i t ic a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s S i n d a n e , o n f in d i n g s d o n e in t e r m s o f t h e

i m p o r t a n t o n e s y o u w a n t e d to , y o u w o u l d li k e to h i g h li g h t ? I f t h e r e is
a n y t h a t y o u h a v e n ’ t , y o u c a n ju s t y o u c a n m e n t io n i t o r w e c a n s ta r t
with it when we come back from tea.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O S I N D A N E : Ye s , I t h in k I’ m d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y. W e w il l ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w i ll

r e s u m e a t 11 :4 5 . W e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t ’s p r o c e e d .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

M s S in d a n e

c o u l d y o u t h e n d e a l w i th t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a t p a g e 3 3 .
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Th e

fir s t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s t h a t . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry before you start on the recommendations; it
is q u i t e c le a r fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d a n d f r o m t h e r e p o r t t h a t
20

w h a t e v e r p r o c e s s o r p r o c e d u r e w a s a p p li e d t o tr y a n d le g i t i m is e t h e
la n d i n g o f t h is a ir c r a f t , t h o s e p r o c e s s e s w e r e n o t a p p li c a b le t o i t a n d i t
s h o u l d n e v e r h a v e b e e n a u t h o r is e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Ye s t h a t w a s o u r f in d i n g .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b e c a u s e i t d i d n o t m e e t th e r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r a n
a ir c r a f t t o q u a li f y t o l a n d a t W a t e r k lo o f .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y,

yes

you

Ye s .
can

then

deal

with

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:
many

in v e s t i g a t io n s

that

were

O k a y b e c a u s e th e r e w e r e

happening

c o n c u r r e n tl y,

we

r e c o m m e n d e d th a t t h o s e in v e s t i g a t io n s b e fi n a l is e d s o o n e s t a n d t h a t
a c ti o n b e t a k e n a g a in s t a n y a n d a l l o f t h e p e o p l e w h o m a y h a v e
c o n tr a v e n e d w i t h t h e le g is l a ti o n , in t e r n a l p r o t o c o ls a n d a ll o f t h a t i n
10

r e l a ti o n to t h is la n d i n g a n d if t h e r e w e r e a n y m a t te r s o f a c r i m in a l
n a t u r e th a t th o s e a ls o b e d e a l t w i t h . O n t h e is s u e o f t h e W a te r k l o o f a ir
b a s e , i t b e i n g a n a ti o n a l k e y p o in t , I m e a n it h a d b e e n i n t h e m e d i a a
lo t a t t h a t p o in t w h e r e p e o p l e w e r e t h i n k in g t h a t t h e W a te r k l o o f is a
n a t io n a l k e y p o i n t a t t h a t ti m e , i t w a s n o t . I th in k i t i s s ti ll n o t a n a ti o n a l
k e y p o i n t b u t i t ’s a s tr a t e g ic d e f e n c e i n s t a l la t io n a n d b e c a u s e o f th a t ,
w e r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t i t s t a y a s s u c h b e c a u s e i t p l a y s a v e r y s p e c i f ic
r o l e f o r t h e D e fe n c e D e p a r t m e n t b u t it a l s o p la y s a v e r y s p e c i fic r o l e
f o r t h e h e a d s o f s ta t e a n d w e r e c o m m e n d e d th a t i t b e k e p t a s s u c h a n d
t h e n t h i s m ig h t s o u n d l ik e a v e r y li g h t r e c o m m e n d a t io n , 5 . 3 a n d m a y I

20

s p e n d j u s t a m i n u t e o r t w o o n i t . W e r e c o m m e n d e d h e r e t h a t th e p u b l ic
s e r v ic e m u s t d o s o m e t h in g to d e a l w i t h t h is is s u e o f n a m e d r o p p i n g
b e c a u s e i t is d a n g e r o u s f o r g o v e r n m e n t a n d fo r t h e c o u n tr y w e w e r e i n
t h is e m b a r r a s s i n g s i tu a ti o n p r e c is e l y b e c a u s e p e o p l e u s e p e o p l e ’s
n a m e s , ti tl e s t o a c h i e v e o b j e c ti v e s th a t w o u l d o t h e r w i s e n o t b e p o s s ib l e
t o a c h i e v e if i t is n o t b e c a u s e o f t h e – n o t b e c a u s e o f th e n a m e t h a t is

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b e i n g u s e d . I n t h i s p a r ti c u l a r c a s e w e w e r e s p e c i f ic , w e w e r e r e fe r r i n g
t o t h e u s e o f t h e n a m e o f M in is t e r B e n M a r ti n s a s b e i n g o k a y w it h t h is ,
t h e u s e o f t h e n a m e o f th e M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e b e in g o k a y w i t h th is , t h e
u s e o f n u m b e r o n e k n o w in g a b o u t t h is b e c a u s e – a n d t h i s I n e e d t o
e x p l a i n . In t h e p u b l ic s e c to r a n d i n p a r ti c u l a r g o v e r n m e n t, p e o p l e u s e
M i n is t e r ’s n a m e s , D G ’s n a m e s a lo t a n d a lo t o f d a m a g e h a p p e n s a n d i f
t h is is n o t a tt e n d e d t o , i t m a y s o u n d , f o r a n o r d i n a r y p e r s o n w h o i s n o t
in g o v e r n m e n t m a y n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e i m p lic a ti o n s b u t f o r – t h e r e w e r e
p e o p l e w h o d i d s o m e th i n g w r o n g b e c a u s e th e y g e n u in e ly b e li e v e d t h a t
10

e i t h e r n u m b e r o n e w a s o k a y w i t h t h is e i t h e r th e M in is t e r s w e r e o k a y
w i t h th is a n d t h e y a c t e d , g e n u in e ly b e li e v i n g t h a t to b e tr u e . N o w th is
d o e s n o t e n d h e r e i n t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n i t m a y c o m e u p i n o t h e r
in v e s t i g a t io n s

because

th e s e

t h in g s

happened

all

the

time

in

g o v e r n m e n t a n d t h a t is w h y w e w e r e r e c o m m e n d in g – a n d w e f e l t i f i t’s
n o t a d d r e s s e d i t w il l c o n ti n u e a n d u l t i m a te ly w e w i ll b e e m b a r r a s s e d a s
a c o u n tr y a n d s o th a t w a s t h e t h ir d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l le t ’s t a lk a b o u t t h a t ju s t a l i t tl e b i t . W h e n I r e a d
t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n I w a s n ’ t s u r e w h e t h e r l a b e ll i n g t h i s c o n d u c t a s
w h a t h a p p e n e d h e r e s e e m e d t o h a v e h a p p e n e d h e r e i n te r ms o f t h e
20

e v i d e n c e th a t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o y o u w a s n a m e d r o p p i n g in t h e – w a s
n a m e d r o p p i n g i n th e s e n s e a t l e a s t i n w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d n a m e
d r o p p i n g , y o u k n o w. T h e i m p r e s s io n I g e t w h e n I r e a d y o u r r e p o r t , a n d
I t h i n k t h a t a ls o c o m e s th r o u g h i n y o u r e v id e n c e is t h a t c e r t a i n p e o p l e
w h o k n e w w h a t th e tr u e fa c t s w e r e d e l ib e r a t e ly m is r e p r e s e n t e d fa c t s .
Now

I’ m n o t s u r e t h a t th a t ’s n a m e

d r o p p i n g , m a y b e i t is , my

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f n a m e d r o p p in g is s o m e t h i n g a lo n g th e s e li n e s b u t I
c a n ’ t s a y i t’s t h e o n ly c a s e o f n a m e d r o p p i n g is t h a t i f I t a lk to y o u ,
m a y b e I n e e d s o m e th i n g , I j u s t f i n d a w a y o f m a k i n g s u r e t h a t y o u k n o w
t h a t I k n o w s o a n d s o a n d m a y b e w e a r e c l o s e , t h a t I k n o w, if y o u k n o w
– I know that person and we are close that might change your view as
t o m y r e q u e s t o r th e w a y y o u w il l l o o k a t m e i s g o i n g to b e d i ffe r e n t
fr o m t h e w a y y o u w e r e l o o k i n g a t m e b e f o r e y o u k n e w o f my
r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h s o a n d s o .

N o w m a y b e it d o e s fa ll w i th in b u t a s I

u n d e r s t a n d h e r e , s o m e b o d y, fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e , I t h i n k i t’s - y o u h a v e
10

m a d e i t q u i t e c l e a r t h a t o n t h e – y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s r e v e a le d th a t
A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a t l e a s t o n h is v e r s i o n , th a t h e t o l d y o u , h e h a d
s a i d , a s I u n d e r s t a n d , h e h a d s a i d t h a t n u m b e r o n e k n e w a b o u t th is , h e
h a d s a i d t h a t n u m b e r o n e h a d i n s tr u c t e d M i n is t e r B e n M a r t in s , h e h a d
s a i d M i n is t e r M a p i s a - N q a k u l a a u th o r is e d o r s o m e t h i n g t o t h a t e ff e c t b u t
w h a t e m e r g e d i s t h a t h e k n e w, a t l e a s t w h a t h e t o l d t o y o u w a s t h a t ,
that was not the case.

So if he accepted that he had made those

s t a te m e n ts a n d th e n h e t h e n s a i d t o y o u , I a c t u a ll y w a s n ’ t t e l li n g t h e
tr u th i n s a y in g th a t n u m b e r o n e k n e w a b o u t i t a n d t h a t n u m b e r o n e h a d
in s t r u c t e d M in is t e r B e n M a r ti n s a n d w h a t e v e r e l s e , t h e n it w o u l d s e e m
20

t o h a v e b e e n a d e l i b e r a t e m is r e p r e s e n t a t io n o f f a c ts w h ic h u n d e r t h e
p u b lic s e r v ic e o u g h t t o a n d c a n b e d e a l t w it h i n t e r m s o f d is c i p l i n e i n a
s e r io u s w a y.

S o I ’ m ju s t m e n t i o n in g t h i s , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u

w o u ld s a y, i t’s s t il l n a m e d r o p p i n g o r – m a y b e w h a t y o u w e r e s e n s i n g
w h e n y o u s a y p e o p l e m i g h t t h i n k i t ’s a m in o r r e c o m m e n d a t i o n , m a y b e i t
r e fl e c ts w h a t , t h e i m p r e s s i o n I a ls o g o t t h a t i t ’s n a m e d r o p p i n g b u t I a m

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
s a y in g

i t’s

m is r e p r e s e n t a t i o n

of

facts

knowing

th a t

you

are

m is r e p r e s e n t in g t h e m a n d u s i n g t h e n a m e s o f p e o p l e i n h i g h a u t h o r i t y
in t h a t s i t u a t i o n w h e r e y o u k n o w y o u s h o u l d n ’ t b e d o i n g th a t . Th a t w a s
my impression, so I don’t know if you have got any comments but as I
s a y it m a y b e th a t i t i s n a m e d r o p p i n g , y e s .
M S N O N K U LU L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E :

Okay thank you very much,

I th i n k t h e C h a ir s r e a d i n g i s c o r r e c t b u t I t h i n k I w o u ld li k e t o a d d t h e
r e a d in g – y o u r i n t e r p r e t a ti o n a b s o lu t e l y h o n o u r a b le J u d g e , D e p u ty
C h i e f J u s ti c e , is q u i t e c o r r e c t w h a t f ir s t t h e r e m u s t b e f a c t s to b e
10

m is r e p r e s e n t e d , in th is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e t h e f a c ts a r e n o t b o r n e o u t b y
a n y o f th e e v i d e n c e w e fo u n d , in o th e r w o r d s t h e r e w e r e n o fa c t s
w h e t h e r t h e n u m b e r o n e k n e w a b o u t t h is o r a t l e a s t s a n c t io n e d i t o r
in s t r u c t e d a n y b o d y, th e r e w e r e n o fa c t s n e i th e r w e r e th e r e fa c ts th a t
M i n is t e r o f D e f e n c e w a s o k a y w i t h t h i s , n e i t h e r w e r e f a c ts w h e th e r th e
t h e n M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t h a d b e e n i n s tr u c t e d .

So you can’t even

m is r e p r e s e n t th a t b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e n o f a c ts a s a s t a r ti n g p o i n t b u t I
a g r e e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll lo o k a t i t t h is w a y fr o m t h e p o i n t o f v i e w f r o m

A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e , f r o m w h a t h e t o ld y o u a n d fr o m w h a t e m e r g e d
20

fr o m t h e e v i d e n c e , h e d id n o t k n o w a n d w a s n o t a w a r e o f a n y f a c t th a t
n u m b e r o n e h a d i n s tr u c te d M i n i s t e r B e n M a r ti n s in r e g a r d t o th is i s s u e
a n d h e d id n o t k n o w th a t M in is t e r M a p is a - N q a k u l a h a d a u th o r is e d t h i s
la n d i n g ,

at

least

fr o m

what

emerged

in

your

i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

N e v e r t h e l e s s , h e m i s r e p r e s e n te d h i s k n o w l e d g e , h e r e p r e s e n te d t h a t h e
k n e w t h a t t h e s e f a c ts e x is te d , y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?

Page 57 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

I agree.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

I a g r e e l e t m e th e r e fo r e g o

b a c k t o n a m e d r o p p i n g I t h i n k th e s u m m a ti o n a s p r e s e n te d fr o m t h e
C h a ir is a c o r r e c t o n e in t e r ms o f n a m e d r o p p i n g b u t w e w e r e s a y i n g
s o m e t h i n g p r o b a b l y w e w e r e p o o r e r f o r w o r d s , b u t t h is i s w h a t w e
meant.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ls o y o u h a d t o d o a l l o f th is i n a v e r y s h o r t t i m e .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:
10

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I t a k e i t y o u w e r e s ti ll h a v i n g y o u r o t h e r n o r m a l
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a s D G ’s o f v a r i o u s d e p a r t m e n t s .
M S N O N K U LU L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E :

Ye s , s o – y e s I a g r e e b u t I

ju s t w a n t t o c l a r if y th is , b e c a u s e i t i s tr u e t h a t c e r t a i n o ffic i a ls a t a
p a r t ic u l a r le v e l w i ll a c t in a p a r tic u l a r w a y if y o u s a y e i th e r t h e M i n is te r
is a w a r e o r t h e M in is t e r d e s ir e s th is o r t h a t a n d th is is w h a t w e a r e
s a y in g . P e r h a p s i t m a y n o t b e a n a c c u r a t e fo r m u l a ti o n t h a t w e c h o s e a t
the

time

but

th is

is

what

we

were

c o m m u n ic a ti n g ,

we

were

c o m m u n ic a ti n g t h e n a n d w e a r e c o m m u n i c a ti n g t h r o u g h th e s e r e p o r ts
a s a p u b lic d o c u m e n t , t h a t i f t h i s is n o t a d d r e s s e d , w h e r e p e o p l e c a n
20

ju s t u s e p e o p l e ’s n a m e s , b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s th e y u s e y o u r n a m e a n d
y o u e n d u p i n tr o u b l e b e c a u s e – l e t m e u s e a p a r tic u l a r e x a m p le .

If

s o m e o n e , a n d I w a s a D G a t t h e t i m e , w e n t t o a n o th e r a n d s a i d t h e D G
s a i d a p p o i n t s o m e b o d y, a ju n i o r o ffi c i a l , i f t h e r e w a s a n i n t e r v i e w
p r o c e s s w o u l d t h i n k t h a t I w a n t t h a t p e r s o n a p p o in t e d a n d s o
s o m e t i m e s y o u c a n b e i n t r o u b l e fo r t h i n g s y o u h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w it h

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a n d t h a t is v e r y c o m m o n a n d t h a t’s th e p o i n t w e w e r e m a k i n g . T h a t i f i t
is n o t a d d r e s s e d , i t p u t s p e o p l e i n tr o u b le , i t m a k e s i n n o c e n t p e o p l e a c t
w r o n g ly s i m p ly b e c a u s e t h e y b e l i e v e a u t h o r it y w a n t s t h i s – t h e s e t h i n g s
t o b e d o n e a n d t h a t ’s th e c o n t e x t o f th a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w e w e r e
making, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

I understand that but you – I take it that you may

h a v e w a n t e d s o m e t h in g s p e c i f ic b e c a u s e it ’s n o t a s if , p e o p l e w h o d o
t h a t c a n ’ t b e d e a l t w i t h i n t e r m s o f w h a t e x i s ts b e c a u s e i f y o u a r e D G
a n d s o m e d ir e c t o r g o e s t o s o m e b o d y a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d s a y s , t h e
10

D G s a id t h i s i s w h a t m u s t b e d o n e , w h e n y o u d i d n ’ t s a y th a t , th a t ’s a
f a ls e s t a t e m e n t a n d i f t h a t p e r s o n k n o w s t h a t y o u d id n ’t s a y t h a t , i t’s
d is h o n e s t y, t h e r e a r e w a y s o f d e a li n g w it h t h a t .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Agreed.

S o I ta k e i t t h a t y o u m ig h t h a v e w a n te d s o m e th i n g

s p e c i f ic t o n a m e d r o p p in g b u t n o t b e c a u s e th is k in d o f c o n d u c t c a n n o t
b e d e a l t w i th w i t h i n th e e x i s ti n g fr a m e w o r k .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Th a n k y o u , a n d m a y b e is th a t – j u s t

f o ll o w i n g u p o n t h e C h a ir ’s l a s t q u e s t io n , is th a t t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u
r e c o m m e n d e d , i n a d d i ti o n , i f w e j u s t d e a l w i th th a t p a g e 3 4 a s to h o w
y o u w a n t e d t h i s w h o l e is s u e o f n a m e d r o p p i n g – h o w y o u w a n te d i t t o
b e d e a l t w i th . T h e s e n t e n c e b e g in s w i th , “ in a d d it i o n ” .
M S N O N K U LU L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Ye s w e w a n t e d i t t o b e

s p e c i f i e d b e c a u s e w e f e lt t h a t – m is c o n d u c t is a v e r y b r o a d c a t e g o r y o f

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
o ffe n c e s a n d y o u w a n t to n a r r o w s o m e o f t h o s e o ffe n c e s to s o m e t h i n g
s p e c i f ic b e c a u s e if y o u n a r r o w i t t o s o m e t h i n g s p e c i f ic t h e n p e o p l e w ill
– p e o p l e ’s a tt e n ti o n w il l b e b r o u g h t t o – s p e c i fi c a ll y to t h is to s a y, i f I
d o t h i s , i t i n it s e l f i s n o w a n o ff e n c e o r u n d e r p u b l ic s e r v ic e r a th e r t h a n
p u t t in g i t u n d e r a g e n e r ic c a te g o r y o f m i s c o n d u c t w h ic h a lr e a d y e x is ts
a n d o f c o u r s e p e r h a p s w e s a i d t h i s b e c a u s e w h a t w e s a w, w e f e lt i t
c o u l d n e v e r h a v e h a p p e n e d h a d s e n io r n a m e s n o t h a v e b e e n u s e d ,
m a y b e i t c o u ld h a v e , I d o n ’ t k n o w b u t w e t h o u g h t a t t h e t i m e , i t c o u l d
n e v e r h a v e h a p p e n e d if s e n i o r n a m e s h a d n o t b e e n u s e d .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , t h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n y o u
h a v e y o u r c o n c l u s i o n s in c h a p te r s i x , c a n y o u j u s t s u m m a r is e w h a t y o u
concluded?
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

O u r c o n c lu s i o n w a s a s

g u i d a n c e h a s b e e n g iv e n fr o m t h e C h a ir, w a s t h a t i n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r
tr a n s a c ti o n o r i n th is p a r tic u la r – I d o n ’ t k n o w i f i t w a s a tr a n s a c ti o n b u t
in t h is p a r ti c u la r e v e n t , I w i t h d r a w t r a n s a c t io n i n t h is p a r t ic u l a r e v e n t
t h e r e w a s l a c k o f p r o fe s s i o n a li s m i n h o w p e o p l e d e a l t w i t h t h e ir
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a n d w h a t w e w e r e e n c o u r a g i n g p e o p l e t o d o i s t o d e a l
w i t h t h e s e is s u e s a n d r e p o r t t h e m w h e r e , f o r i n s t a n c e , i f th i n g s lik e
20

t h e s e h a p p e n . S o – b e c a u s e o th e r w is e i f p e o p l e h a v e t o e n d u r e u n d u e
in fl u e n c e t h e y a r e n o t a b l e t o d o t h e ir w o r k o b je c tiv e ly s o t h a t w a s t h e
p o i n t t h a t w e w e r e tr y i n g t o m a k e i n t h a t s ta t e m e n t a n d w e th e n
c o n c l u d e d , p e r h a p s th a t s o m e t h e b e h a v i o u r s t h a t w e r e d i s p la y e d
d u r i n g t h i s w h o l e p r o c e s s c o u l d a l m o s t b e u n e t h ic a l , c o u l d a l m o s t b e
la c k o f p r o fe s s io n a l – a s c r ib e d to l a c k o f p r o fe s s io n a l is m o r i f n o t , t h e n

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
I w o u l d e v e n a r g u e i t w a s o u t r i g h t r e c k l e s s in h o w t h is w a s u n d e r t a k e n
b u t w e a ls o n o te d t h a t s o m e t i m e s t h e p u b lic , w h e n t h e p u b l ic is
o u tr a g e d b y s o m e t h i n g a n d a s h a v i n g b e e n a s e n io r o ffic i a l i n
g o v e r n m e n t f o r m a n y, m a n y y e a r s , s o m e t i m e s w e ’ r e l ik e , o h m y G o d ,
b u t t h e r e a l it y o f t h e m a t t e r is t h a t u n l e s s o r p u b l ic i s e n r a g e d e n o u g h ,
n o t h i n g h a p p e n s a n d i t w a s g o o d in a b a d w a y th a t t h e p u b l ic w a s s o
e n r a g e d a b o u t th is t h in g a n d b e c a u s e o f t h a t a c ti o n w a s t a k e n a n d I a m
not – please let

m e b e u n d e r s to o d c o r r e c tl y, I a m n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t

a c ti o n , d is c i p l in a r ie s e v e r y w h e r e b e c a u s e I w o u ld n o t k n o w w h e th e r
10

t h a t w a s t a k e n o r n o t , o u r i n te r a c t io n w i t h t h i s w o r k e n d e d w h e n w e
s a i d h e r e ’s t h e r e p o r t , i t’s n o w y o u r s , y o u d o w h a t y o u h a v e t o d o a n d
w e m o v e d o u t o f i t , i t ’s n o l o n g e r o u r r e p o r t a s i t i s a s i t s i t s h e r e a n d
t h e n a ls o w e – a n d t h i s – a n d I r e a d i n t h e m e d ia , s u b s e q u e n t t o t h i s
r e p o r t t h a t p e o p l e w e r e m a k i n g v e r y l ig h t o f t h e f a c t t h a t

there are

in d e e d g o o d h a r d w o r k i n g h o n e s t a n d d e d i c a t e d o ff ic i a ls i n g o v e r n m e n t
a n d i n th is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e w e p ic k e d th a t u p s o c l e a r ly, i t w a s s o
u n e q u iv o c a l th a t t h e r e w e r e p e o p le w h o w e r e a s k in g t h e r ig h t q u e s ti o n s
b u t I t h i n k , e i t h e r b e c a u s e o f th e r u s h o f t h e m o m e n t a n d I d o n ’ t w a n t
t o a s s u m e , b e c a u s e t h i s w e d i d n o t f in d , w e d i d n o t f in d a n y t h i n g t h a t
20

w a s o f a d ir e c t p e r s o n a l b e n e fi t t o a n y o f t h e t w o p e o p le , w e d i d n o t
fi n d th a t a n d w e a r e n o t m a k i n g a n y a s s u m p t io n s e x p r e s s o r o t h e r w is e
t h a t th e y d i d g e t a n y d ir e c t b e n e f i t, w e a r e n o t m a k in g th a t fi n d i n g b u t
w e a r e s a y i n g h o w t h e o t h e r o ff ic ia ls d e a l t w i t h t h is is , i n o u r v i e w, v e r y
a c c e p ta b l e i n th e f a c t t h a t t h e y r a is e d q u e s ti o n s , t h e y k e p t o n r a is i n g
q u e s t io n s a n d h o w t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e m a k i n g t h i s l a n d in g t o h a p p e n

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
w e r e d o i n g it .

T h e y w e r e e it h e r p r e s s u r e d b y th i n g s w e d o n ’ t k n o w

because they never told us but that pressure may have been too much
f o r t h e m b u t u n le s s t h e y s h a r e o r u n l e s s t h e y s h a r e d a t t h e ti m e w i t h
t h e ta s k te a m w h a t th e p r e s s u r e w a s a n d t h e s o u r c e o f t h e p r e s s u r e
w a s , w e d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d h o w, a n d w e c o u l d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d i t th e n h o w
t h e y c o u l d h a v e f o r m u la t e d , t h e r e ’s a w e d d in g , th e r e ’s a d e l e g a ti o n ,
t h e r e a r e h e a d s o f s ta t e s , th e r e a r e M i n is te r s a n d t h e n i t t u r n s o u t
t h e r e ’s n o M i n i s te r s , t h e r e a r e n o h e a d s o f s ta t e i t ’s s o m e M C ’s , h o w
did that happen. What was the source of the pressure and unless, they
10

t h e m s e l v e s t o ld u s t h a t t h i s w a s t h e p r e s s u r e p o i n t a n d t h a t is w h y w e
p r o b a b ly in a w il li n g k i n d o f w a y f o r m u l a t e d t o e n d u p t h e w a y t h a t it
did.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u , y o u ’v e m e n ti o n e d t h e p u b li c

o u tr a g e b u t d id th is i n c i d e n t o n i ts o w n , r a t tl e g o v e r n m e n t a t a ll , y o u
w e r e t h e r e y o u w o u ld h a v e s e e n a n d m a y b e h a v e e x p e r ie n c e d i t a s a
s e n i o r o ffic i a l a t t h e t i m e ?
M S N O N K U LU L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

A b s o lu t e l y g o v e r n m e n t w a s

r a t tl e d t o a p o i n t t h a t I h a d n ’ t s e e n i n m y e x p e r ie n c e i n g o v e r n m e n t
u n t il t h a t p o in t . O t h e r t h i n g s t h a t a r e b i g w o u ld b e m a j o r d i s a s t e r s a n d
20

a l l o f t h a t, I’ m n o t c o m p a r i n g t h is to t h a t , a b s o l u t e ly b y a n y m e a n s , b u t
g o v e r n m e n t w a s s o r a t tl e b y th is t h in g , I h a d n e v e r b e e n in m e e ti n g s
w h e r e t h e r e w e r e s o m a n y s e n i o r o ffi c ia ls o f g o v e r n m e n t in o n e
m e e ti n g o r t h e o t h e r f o r li k e , h o u r s o n e n d d i s c u s s i n g o n e t h in g . S o I
t h i n k g o v e r n m e n t w a s v e r y r a t t le d . D i d w e le a r n s o m e t h i n g o u t o f t h i s ?
I p r o b a b ly w o u l d s a y, w e c o u ld h a v e l e a r n t s o m e t h in g if a c t io n w a s

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
t a k e n , I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t a c t io n w a s ta k e n a s I s i t h e r e a n d t h e r e f o r e I
d o n ’t k n o w w h e th e r w e l e a r n t e n o u g h to p r e v e n t t h is th i n g fr o m
r e c u r r in g i n t o t h e f u t u r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n w h e n y o u

c o n c l u d e d in y o u r r e p o r t w h o d i d y o u h a n d i t t o ?
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

To t h e p r i n c ip le s th a t h a d

a p p o i n t e d u s w h o w o u ld b e t h e J C P S c l u s t e r M in s te r s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s is i t c o r r e c t th a t i t w a s p u b lis h e d o n
the website?
10

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

I t w a s p u b lis h e d o n t h e

s a m e d a y a n d I t h i n k a h a r d c o p y w a s a ls o d e l iv e r e d t o th e P u b lic
P r o t e c t o r s o ffic e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d fr o m t h e t i m e y o u h a d w r i t t e n t h is
r e p o r t , w e r e y o u e v e r m a d e a w a r e o f a n y p e r s o n b r i n g i n g a p p lic a ti o n s
t o i t , s e t a s id e o r r e v i e w e d o r a n y a c ti o n a g a i n s t i t ?
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

I was not aware of any

a p p lic a ti o n s e t t in g th e r e p o r t a s i d e , I w a s , h o w e v e r, a w a r e th a t – I
r e a l ly w a n t to c i t e i t c o r r e c t ly th is t i m e , L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n
had raised issues, now I don’t know whether she went to Court
20

n e c e s s a r i ly b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w s h e r a is e d t h o s e is s u e s , I d o
k n o w t h a t s h e w e n t t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a t t h a t t i m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u , a n d y o u ’r e s a ti s f i e d , y o u ’r e
happy

w i th

the

report

and

you

s ta n d

by

your

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i n i t ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Page 63 of 130

A b s o l u t e ly.

fi n d i n g s

and

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n ’ t i n te r v i e w C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n o r d id y o u ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

We – there was an

a r r a n g e m e n t, m a y b e t o e x p la in t h i s , w e w e n t to t h e a i r b a s e o n , s a y
d a y 1 o r w h a t e v e r t h e d a y w a s , w e w e n t o n th e a ir b a s e j u s t t o s e e ,
a l m o s t l ik e a n i n l o c o ju s t to s e e w h a t w a s g o i n g o n , t h e l a y o u t a n d a l l
o f th a t a n d o n c e w e h a d d o n e t h a t w e i d e n ti fi e d p e o p l e t h a t w e w a n t e d
10

t o s p e a k t o , th e y w e r e o r g a n is e d fo r u s t o s p e a k t o t h e m . I t h in k
s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t w e w e n t a g a in a n d w e d is c u s s e d w i th a w h o l e r a n g e
o f o ff ic ia ls a t t h e a ir b a s e a n d t h e n w e – t h e r e w a s a f o ll o w - u p m e e ti n g
t o m e e t w i t h L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a n d I w a s n ’ t g o in g to b e
t h e r e o n t h a t d a y b u t I w a s a d v is e d b y t h e t h r e e m e m b e r s o f t h e t e a m
w h o w e n t th e r e to in t e r v i e w h e r, t h a t s h e w a s n o t a v a i la b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n ti l y o u f in is h e d t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n ?
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y, f o r m e r M i n is t e r R a m a tl h o d i g a v e e v id e n c e

e a r l ie r th is y e a r h e r e a n d in h is e v i d e n c e h e t o u c h e d o n t h e i s s u e o f
20

t h e l a n d in g o f t h e a ir c r a f t a t W a t e r k lo o f , I d o n ’ t w a n t t o p u t w o r d s in t o
h is m o u t h , b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h i s fe e l in g a b o u t t h is i n c i d e n t w a s
s o m e t h i n g a lo n g t h e li n e s th a t i t s h o c k e d h i m a n d h e r e f e r r e d t o w h a t i t
s a i d t o p e o p le l ik e h i m w h o h a d e v e n g o n e o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y t o f i g h t
f o r fr e e d o m a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t h e w a s e x p r e s s i n g th e
s e n ti m e n t th a t t h is b r o u g h t s h a m e to s o m e o f u s t o h a v e a p r iv a te , y o u

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
k n o w, a c o m m e r c i a l p l a n e l a n d in g a t s u c h a s tr a t e g ic a l i m p o r t a n t b a s e
in o u r c o u n tr y a n d h e s e e m e d r e a l ly to f in d t h e w h o l e in c i d e n t q u it e
s h o c k i n g a n d I p u t m y o w n w o r d s , l ik e s o m e t h i n g th a t w e m a y b e a s a
c o u n tr y s h o u l d s e e a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t b r o u g h t n a ti o n a l s h a m e , y o u
k n o w, I’ m j u s t u s in g m y o w n w o r d s b a s e d o n w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o
b e s a y in g .

H a v i n g c o n d u c t e d th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n , a n d h e a r d f r o m

d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e h o w i t c a m e a b o u t , a r e y o u a b l e t o d e s c r i b e w h a t y o u r
o w n fe e l i n g w a s a b o u t t h i s in c i d e n t o n c e y o u h a d g a t h e r e d a l l t h e
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u h a d g a t h e r e d , h o w w o u l d y o u d e s c r i b e it ?
10

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

T h a t ’s a b ig q u e s t i o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t to h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h o w b a d y o u
o r y o u r c o m m i t t e e th o u g h t i t w a s , y o u mi g h t n o t b e a b l e t o s p e a k f o r
o th e r s i n t h e c o m m i t t e e b u t f o r y o u r s e l f , o n c e th e p i c tu r e e m e r g e d
t h r o u g h t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n , h o w y o u s a w it .
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

O k a y I w ill s p e a k f o r

m y s e l f , n o t fo r t h e c o m m i t te e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

A s th e s e n i o r c iv i l s e r v a n t

a t t h a t ti m e a n d a S o u t h A fr ic a n , I w a s e x tr e m e l y e m b a r r a s s e d a n d t h e
20

embarrassment

is

not

that

something

li k e

th a t

happened,

the

e m b a r r a s s m e n t w a s h o w c o u l d a w e d d i n g o f p e o p l e w h o a r e n o t fr o m
t h e c o u n t r y t a k e p la c e – a w e d d i n g p a r ty l a n d in a s tr a t e g ic i n s t a l l a t i o n ,
w h a t w e n t w r o n g , w h e r e w e r e w e , i n c l u d i n g m y s e lf .

Of course I wold

n e v e r – te c h n ic a l ly I w o u l d n e v e r h a v e k n o w n a n y t h i n g a b o u t it a t a
t e c h n ic a l l e v e l b u t t h a t w a s th e q u e s t io n I w a s l e f t w it h , w h a t w e n t

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
w r o n g , w h e r e w a s I – I m e a n I’ m a c o n v e n e r o f t h e J C P S c lu s te r, h o w
c o u l d w e n o t h a v e s e e n th is c o m i n g , w h y w a s t h i s s o d i ffic u lt t o s p o t .
S o o n e , i t w a s e m b a r r a s s i n g b u t t w o , it w a s a ls o d i s a p p o i n ti n g it w a s
e x tr e m e l y d i s a p p o i n t i n g b e c a u s e y o u w o u ld i m a g in e t h a t s u c h a
s tr a t e g ic i n s t a l la t io n is n o t s o e a s il y a c c e s s i b l e .

W h e r e I th in k ,

p e r h a p s my b i g g e s t s h o c k , b u t I k n o w t h i s b e c a u s e a lo t o f p e o p l e w e r e
s h o c k e d b y t h i s , b u t m y b ig g e s t s h o c k w a s w h y a r e w e e v e n i n t h is
w e d d i n g n e v e r m i n d e v e r y t h i n g e ls e , w h y i s t h i s w e d d i n g s u c h a
n a t io n a l i m p o r t a n t e v e n t i n o u r c a l e n d a r. S o fo r m e t h o s e w e r e t h e
10

q u e s t io n s , I a c c e p t t h a t t h e i r r e l a ti o n s , c a b i n e t m e m b e r s a r e e n t i tl e d to
h a v e r e la t io n s w it h w h o m s o e v e r t h e y c h o o s e b u t w h e n i t g e ts t o th is
p o i n t w h e r e n a ti o n a l a s s e ts a r e a b u s e d t o t h a t le v e l , i t’s a s h o c k a n d
it ’s p a r t ic u l a r l y a s h o c k b e c a u s e p e o p l e g e t fi r e d f o r t h e s m a ll e s t t h i n g s
a n d f o r s o m e th i n g t h is b ig , I m e a n i t j u s t – I ’ m d is a p p o i n t e d to d a y a s I
w a s d is a p p o i n t e d w h e n t h is t h i n g h a p p e n e d a n d I e v e n w o n d e r b e c a u s e
o b v i o u s l y w e w e r e ju s t o b l iv i o u s g o i n g o n a b o u t o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s , if
t h e m e d i a h a d n o t p ic k e d th is t h i n g u p i t w o u l d h a v e g o n e o n a n d
n o b o d y w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e w is e r a n d s o th a t ’s w h a t s h o c k s m e a n d
s h o c k e d m e a t t h a t p o i n t b u t s ti ll m a k e s m e v e r y d is a p p o i n t e d e v e n a s I

20

s i t h e r e t h a t s o m e ti m e s – I’ m n o f a n o f th e m e d ia a n d I – n o t t h a t I h a t e
t h e m e d i a , j a b u t t h a t ’s t h a t b u t t h e l o n g a n d t h e s h o r t o f i t , if n o - o n e
h a d p ic k e d t h is u p i t c o u ld e a s i ly h a v e g o n e o n y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h e l in e s t h a t p e o p l e
g e t fi r e d f o r s m a ll t h i n g s , I t h o u g h t y o u d i d n ’ t fi n i s h t h a t s e n te n c e , I
t h o u g h t h e r e w a s a p o i n t y o u w a n t e d to m a k e , d o y o u w a n t t o m a k e t h a t

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
point?
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

T h e p o i n t I ’ m tr y in g to g e t

t o i s , j a , t h a t ’s t h e p o i n t , I l a c k t h e w o r d s t o s a y t h e p o i n t b u t h e r e is
p e r h a p s w h a t I’ m tr y i n g to g e t t o . A t a p e r s o n a l l e v e l I h a v e d is c i p l in e d
e m p l o y e e s f o r t h e s i m p le s t th i n g s a n d f i r e d th e m a n d w i th o u t b e in g
e x c i te d a b o u t h a v i n g f ir e d t h e m I r e f l e c t e d a n d s a i d , i t w a s a g o o d
d e c is i o n ,

they

may

not

feel

the

same

way

by

the

way

but

… ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o r r y w h a t w a s a g o o d d e c is i o n , y o u m e a n th e

employees?
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

That an employee was

fir e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS

NONKULULEKO

TER ESSA

S I N D A N E:

So

I

would

s a y … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u m e a n w h e n y o u h a v e m a d e a d e c is io n t o fir e
a n e m p lo y e e f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n t h e e m p l o y e e m i g h t n o t fe e l t h e s a m e
w a y y o u f e e l b u t y o u m i g h t l o o k a t p r i n c ip l e s , y o u m i g h t l o o k a t a
n u m b e r o f fa c t o r s a n d s a y, i t w a s a g o o d d e c i s i o n ?
20

M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

S o – b u t o n th is t h i n g t h a t

b r o u g h t t h e c o u n tr y t o a s t a n d s t il l I k n o w o f n o - o n e w h o w a s a c t e d
a g a in s t , o r a c te d u p o n a s a r e s u l t o f t h i s a n d t h a t ’s a l l I w is h t o s a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a c t e d u p o n , y o u m e a n fi r e d a s y o u h a v e ju s t

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
b e e n m a k in g e x a m p l e s o f b e i n g f ir e d .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Ye s o r m o r e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t t h a t w a s t h e p o i n t y o u w a n te d t o m a k e I ’ m
g l a d t h a t I s a w t h e p o in t , a r e y o u d o n e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s j u s t o n e q u e s t io n M s S i n d a n e a t o u r
c o n s u l t a ti o n y o u r a i s e d s o m e t h i n g , y o u r e a c te d – y o u m e n ti o n e d th a t
t h e a u t h o r o f t h e b o o k , “ T h e P r e s id e n t’s K e e p e r s ” , M r J a c q u e s P a u l I
t h i n k i t is p a g e 2 6 8 , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n M r C h a ir m a n , h a d i n d ic a t e d th a t
b e c a u s e o f h o w th is r e p o r t w a s d o n e , y o u w e r e a c tu a l ly r e w a r d e d a n d
10

y o u h a d a c o m m e n t to m a k e t o t h a t , c a n y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a i r p e r s o n
w h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s a b o u t w h a t t h e a u t h o r w a s s a y in g a b o u t
y o u a n d t h e n g i v e y o u r c o m m e n t t o t h a t.
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

O k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
MS NONKULULEKO TER ESSA SINDANE:

“ T h e P r e s id e n t’s K e e p e r s ” ,

w h e n i t w a s – i t p r o b a b ly w a s o n t h e s a m e d a y th a t i t w a s r e le a s e d t h a t
I s ta r t e d g e tt i n g c a l ls , S M S ’s a n d t h o s e k i n d s o f th in g s , W h a t s A p p
m e s s a g e s , s o m e o n e e v e n s e n t m e a b o o k b e c a u s e o f h o w t h e th in g w a s
m e n ti o n e d , t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n w a s m e n ti o n e d b u t i f y o u g o b a c k to th e
20

b o o k , t h e t i tl e o f t h e b o o k s a y s i t’s “ T h e P r e s i d e n t ’s K e e p e r s ” , w h a t e v e r
t h e r i g h t fo r m u l a ti o n is . S o w h a t o ffe n d e d m e a b o u t t h a t w h ic h is s ti ll
o ffe n d i n g m e a s I s i t h e r e i s t h a t y o u u s e t h e i n f o r m a ti o n a s th o u g h y o u
h a v e e i th e r v e r i fi e d w i t h m e o r t h a t k i n d o f t h in g w h e n y o u w r i te a
s t a te m e n t lik e t h e s ta t e m e n t h e w r o te a b o u t u s b e i n g r e w a r d e d f o r
h a v i n g d o n e th is . N o w h e r e is th e d e a l M r C h a ir, M r G l o m o is n o w a n

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A m b a s s a d o r i n a c o u n tr y I d o n ’ t k n o w, C l i n t , D r C li n t S w e m m e r is i n t h e
U N s o m e w h e r e a n d w h o e l s e , C o m m is s i o n e r M o y a n e , u n ti l r e c e n t ly h e
h a d m o v e d o n to S A R S f r o m b e in g a C o m m i s s i o n e r i n c o r r e c ti o n a l
s e r v ic e s . S o p e r h a p s o n e c o u l d s a y m a y b e th a t ’s w h a t h e m e a n t a n d o f
c o u r s e I w e n t t o t h e p r iv a te s e c to r a fe w y e a r s a f te r th a t , a ft e r, e i t h e r
s o m e o f t h e p r o m o t i o n s o r a l l o f t h e p r o m o t io n s .

I joined a company

w h ic h h a d n o b u s in e s s i n b e i n g d r a w n i n to t h i s t h in g o f “ Pr e s i d e n t ’s
K e e p e r s ” , s o I f e lt i t – t h a t s t a te m e n t h a d a n i m p a c t o n t h e b u s in e s s
a n d t h e c o m p a n y t h a t I w o r k fo r w h ic h i n c i d e n t a lly I’ m a l s o a s m a ll
10

shareholder in and I felt it was not right for him to have done that,
t h o u g h I u n d e r s t o o d th a t t h e m e d i a n o r m a l ly c a n s a y t h i n g s a n d k in d o f
get away with them.

S o I u n d e r s t o o d th a t b u t I a m s ti ll fe e li n g v e r y

a g g r ie v e d a n d I w a n t t o p u t i t o n r e c o r d a n d t h a n k s fo r t h e q u e s ti o n
b e c a u s e I w a n t t o p u t i t o n r e c o r d . I a m n o t a “ P r e s i d e n t ’s K e e p e r ” , I
d i d n o t d e fe n d t h e Pr e s id e n t, t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n e r r o r s i n t h e
p r o c e s s b u t I d i d n o t d e f e n d th e Pr e s i d e n t w h e n I c o m p i le d th e r e p o r ts I
p a r t ic ip a t e d i n t h e p r o c e s s th e r e w a s n o l i n k t h a t w a s g iv e n b y, i n
p a r t ic u l a r o n e p e r s o n , b u t m a y b e t w o , o n e M i n is t e r B e n M a r t i n s w a s th e
M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t a t t h e t i m e , d e n ie d c a te g o r i c a ll y h a v i n g b e e n
20

in s t r u c t e d b y t h e P r e s id e n t.

Tw o t h e A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e d e n ie d

h a v i n g b e e n in s tr u c te d b y t h e Pr e s i d e n t , I a n d m y t e a m c o u ld n o t h a v e
g o n e to t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d s a y, e i s h M r P r e s i d e n t w e h e a r d s o m e
s k i n n e r s o m e w h e r e th e r e a n d w e t h i n k w e m u s t n o w c o m e a n d t a lk t o
y o u . W h a t w e d e c i d e d t o d o , w h ic h w a s p r o c e d u r a l , w a s to g o t o t h e
P r e s i d e n c y a n d s a y, u n d e r w h i c h p r o t o c o ls c a n th e P r e s i d e n t , if a n y,

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a u t h o r i s e t h e l a n d in g o f t h e a ir c r a f t b e c a u s e i f w e h a d r e c e iv e d t h a t ,
w e p o s s i b ly c o u ld h a v e h a d a d ir e c t l in k t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t i n t e r m s o f
s a y in g , M r Pr e s id e n t t h is i s t h e p r o t o c o l , t h is i s w h a t y o u d id .

In the

a b s e n c e o f t h a t a n d i n t h e a b s e n c e o f t h e l in k fr o m th e p e o p l e w e
in t e r v ie w e d t h e r e w a s n o w a y, a s I s i t h e r e t o d a y, r e f le c ti n g o n
s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d in 2 0 1 3 t h e r e w a s n o w a y t h a t a r i g h t t h i n k in g
p e r s o n w o u l d h a v e s a id , o k a y t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h o w e r e t a lk i n g a n d
w e a r e n o w t a l k i n g t o y o u a b o u t t h i s a n d s o I a m n o t t h e “ Pr e s i d e n t ’s
K e e p e r ” , I r e s e n t th e c o n n o ta t io n a s s o c i a te d w i th t h a t e v e n t h o u g h
10

s o m e o f t h e i n f o r m a t io n c a m e fr o m o u r w e b s i t e , t h e to n e t h a t i t w a s p u t
in o u r w e b s it e a n d t h e t o n e t h a t i t i s u s e d i n th a t b o o k , in m y v i e w, i s
in t e n d e d o r w a s i n te n d e d o r c o n t in u e s t o b e i n te n d e d a s th e b o o k
c o n ti n u e s t o b e r e a d t o d i m i n is h t h e r o le w e p l a y e d , I p l a y e d i n t h is
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d p e r h a p s m e a s a n i n d iv id u a l , t h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M s S i n d a n e , ju s t fo r r e c o r d

p u r p o s e s , t h o s e r e m a r k s a b o u t y o u a r e a t p a g e 1 5 3 o f th e b o o k , t h a n k
y o u , t h a n k y o u t h a t i s a ll M r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ms Sindane for having come to
g iv e e v id e n c e to t h e C o m m i s s io n , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
20

Should the

n e e d a r is e f o r y o u t o b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k , t h e C o m m i s s i o n w il l b e in
t o u c h w it h y o u , t h e r e m a y o r m a y n o t b e s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t w a n t t o
a p p ly f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e y o u , w e d o n ’t k n o w a t t h i s s t a g e s o –
b u t i n t h a t e v e n t y o u w i ll b e c o n t a c t e d , b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r
coming forward.
MS NONKULULEKO TERESSA SINDANE:

Page 70 of 130

Th a n k y o u s o m u c h , I

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a p p r e c ia t e th e o p p o r tu n it y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x c u s e d , th a n k y o u .
M S N O N K U L U L E K O T E R E S S A S I N D A N E:

Thank you.

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n th e n e x t w i t n e s s
w i ll b e M a j o r T h a b o N ts h is i h e w ill b e l e d b y m y le a r n e d fr ie n d M s
R a s i v h e ts h e l e t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, I’ m g o i n g t o a d j o u r n f o r f iv e m i n u t e s , w e

adjourn.
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : G o o d d a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ar e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir I w i ll b e le a d i n g t h e e v i d e n c e o f
M a jo r T h a b o N t s h is i w h o a t th e t i m e o f t h e l a n d in g o f th e c h a r t e r e d
c o m m e r c ia l a ir c r a f t a t t h e A ir F o r c e B a s e W a t e r k lo o f o n t h e 3 0 A p r il
2 0 1 3 w a s a W a r r a n t O ff ic e r s ta t io n e d a t t h e A ir Fo r c e C o m m a n d P o s t .
T h e A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t a s r e l a y e d t o m e b y M a j o r N ts h is i is t h e

20

h e a r t o f t h e A ir F o r c e a n d a c r i t ic a l c h a n n e l w h e r e i n th e n e c e s s a r y
a u t h o r i s a t io n is g iv e n i n o r d e r f o r a n a ir c r a ft t o la n d a t t h e b a s e . T h e
s e c o n d w it n e s s is M r W ill i a m M a t ji la e m p l o y e d a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
I n t e r n a ti o n a l

R e l a ti o n s

and

C o r p o r a ti o n

and

fo r

a ll

i n t e n ts

and

p u r p o s e s I w il l b e m e n t io n i n g i t a s D I R C O . M r M a t ji la a t t h e t i m e o f th e
la n d i n g a c t e d i n t h e c a p a c it y …

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e – a r e w e n o t h a v in g Mr N ts h is i ’s e v i d e n c e a t
the moment?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s in d e e d s o S ir th is is j u s t a r e l a y

ju s t t o b r in g t o t h e C h a i r ’s a tt e n ti o n c o n c e r n i n g M r M a tj il a ’s a ffi d a v it
w h ic h is a c o n fi r m a to r y a ff id a v i t. J u s t t o g iv e a b a c k g r o u n d – a s h o r t
b a c k g r o u n d t o th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s le a d i n g t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o l e t u s d e a l w i th – l e t u s h e a r M r N ts h is i ’s e v i d e n c e
at the moment.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : As t h e C h a ir p le a s e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. I see two people there.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is g o i n g o n ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a i r Mr – M a jo r N ts h is i I b e g y o u r

p a r d o n h a s r e q u e s te d a n i n t e r p r e t e r t o a c c o m m o d a te h i m in Is i- Z u l u h i s
h o m e l a n g u a g e a n d f o r a ll i n t e n ts a n d p u r p o s e s I a m n o t c e r ta in – I a m
n o t c e r t a i n l y s u r e m y m is t a k e t h a t I h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d th e i n t e r p r e t e r ’s
n a m e a p o l o g ie s f o r t h a t . Th a t h e w i ll r e l a y th e e v i d e n c e t o M r N t s h is i
w h o w i ll t h e n r e p ly i n Is i- Z u l u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e i n t e r p r e te r a s w o r n tr a n s l a to r ? I – y e s .
20

M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I N E S E ( IN T E R P R E T E R ) : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I N E S E ( I N T E R P R E T E R ) :

Ye s I a m a s w o r n

in t e r p r e t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay just Ms Norman have you checked all of those
t h i n g s , t h o s e f o r m a li t ie s ?

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s – Ye s C h a ir w e d i d c h e c k w i t h M r M o lo k o
o r w h o is w it h in t h e s e c r e t a r ia t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t h a s a n y b o d y g o t th a t a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t th a t
w h a t I a m b e i n g t o ld is tr u e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s I w o u ld h a v e n o r e a s o n t o – in fa c t I k n o w
t h e in t e r p r e t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w h i m ?
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN:

I – y e s I h a v e d e a lt w it h h i m b e f o r e a n d Mr

M o lo k o d i d a ls o c h e c k a l l o f t h o s e c r e d e n t i a ls y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w i t h t h e p a p e r w o r k a n d e v e r y t h i n g th a t w a s u p t h a t
is w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Ye s .

I d o n o t h a v e p a p e r w o r k M r C h a ir m a n

but…
CHAIRPERSON: But can somebody check that?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s w e c o u l d a s k th a t th a t b e o b t a i n e d y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

L e t u s s t a r t w it h th a t .

Pl e a s e s t a n d Mr

I n t e r p r e te r. W h a t a r e y o u r f u l l n a m e s ?
20

M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I N E S E ( IN T E R P R E T E R ) :

My full names are

Stanley Dumisani Nese
CHAIRPERSON: Nese.
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I N E S E ( IN T E R P R E T E R ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y y o u a r e a s w o r n in t e r p r e t e r ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I N E S E ( I N T E R P R E T E R ) :

Page 73 of 130

I am a sworn

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
in t e r p r e t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u c a n m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o p r o d u c e th e

n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n t a ti o n ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I N E S E ( I N T E R P R E T E R ) :

The necessary

d o c u m e n t a ti o n s I t h i n k a r e w i th M r M o l o k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u p r o v i d e d th e m .
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I N E S E ( IN T E R P R E T E R ) : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

N o t h e n th a t is f in e .

T h e n I a m h a p p y.

O k a y th a n k y o u . A n d o f c o u r s e I ta k e i t t h a t y o u i n t e r p r e t f r o m Is i- Z u l u
10

t o E n g lis h a n d v ic e v e r s a ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I N E S E ( IN T E R P R E T E R ) : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . O k a y t h e n le t u s g o – le t u s p r o c e e d .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r i f I m a y r e f e r
y o u t o th e f o l lo w i n g e x h i b i ts t h a t – t h a t w il l b e u s e d w i t h M a j o r N t s h is i’s
evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

T h e f o l l o w i n g e x h ib i t i n c o n s e c u ti v e

o r d e r is Ex h i b it F F 4 t h a t w o u ld b e t h e c h i e f S A N D A F b o a r d .

On the

s p i n e i t i s w r i t te n c a s e n u m b e r 0 1 / 2 0 1 3 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h e n e x t e x h i b i t is F F 5 i t is o n th e

s p i n e i t i s w r i t te n e m a i l r e f e r e n c e b u n d le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d t h e n E x h i b i t F F6 w h ic h c o m p r i s e s
o f b o t h a ff id a v i ts o f M a j o r N ts h is i a n d M r M a t ji la w h ic h is l a b e ll e d

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E x h i b i t F F6 . 1 a n d Mr M a t ji la E x h i b i t F F 6 .3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll le t u s d e a l w it h M r N ts h is i o n ly n o w.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a is Mr M a t ji la n o t g o i n g to g i v e e v id e n c e l a te r ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s i n d e e d C h a ir h o w e v e r M r M a t jil a ’s
a ffi d a v i t i s a c t u a l ly a c o n f ir m a to r y a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t a r e y o u – w il l h e n o t b e c a ll e d ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : O u r v ie w a s th e t e a m C h a ir is th a t Mr
M a t jil a ’s a ff id a v i t is a c o n f ir m a t o r y a ff id a v i t t o M s S i n d a n e ’s a n n e x u r e
10

w h ic h w o u l d b e th e J S – th e J S R e p o r t a b o u t th e l a n d in g , th e c l u s t e r
report and we felt that there was nothing contentious about – he agrees
w i t h e v e r y th i n g a c c o r d i n g to – t h a t h e h a s m e n ti o n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I j u s t s a i d l a s t w e e k t h a t I d e c i d e w h e t h e r a

w i t n e s s w i ll b e c a ll e d o r n o t b e c a ll e d .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Of course, of course based on…
CHAIRPERSON: Nobody has come to me and says –
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e C h a i r ’s a p p r o v a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s a i d t h e r e is t h is w it n e s s t h is is th e n a tu r e o f h is
o r h e r e v id e n c e w e p r o p o s e n o t to c a ll h i m a n d h e a r w h a t I h a v e to s a y.
20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I n d e e d s o C h a ir t h a t w a s ju s t o u r

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b a s e d o n y o u r a p p r o v a l?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is t h e p r o c e s s t o b e fo ll o w e d .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k fo r n o w l e t u s f o c u s o n M r N ts h i s i ’s e v i d e n c e
a n d w h a t e v e r e ls e i n r e l a ti o n t o a n o th e r w i t n e s s c a n b e d e a l t w i t h l a t e r.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d f i n a lly C h a ir E x h i b i t F F 8 t h a t w o u ld
b e o n t h e s p i n e i t is w r i t t e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t it .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A d d i ti o n a l in f o r m a ti o n b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t a r e t h e c o n t e n ts o f E x h i b i t F F4 ? Is i t t h e
10

r e p o r t o f t h e B o a r d o f I n q u ir y ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s in d e e d s o . It i s – i t p r e d o m in a n tly
d e a ls w i t h th e B o a r d o f I n q u ir y. I t h a s g o t s t a te m e n ts a ls o a t r a n s c r i p t
and

also

o th e r

annexures

based

on

the

Board

of

In q u ir i e s

in v e s t i g a t io n s a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e w h i c h c o n ta i n s d o c u m e n t s r e l a ti n g
t o t h e B o a r d o f I n q u ir y o f t h e S A N D A F w it h a s w o r n s t a t e m e n t o f a n
a ffi d a v i t b y M r M g w e b i w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t F F4 a n d t h e l e v e r a r c h
fi le c o n t a i n in g e m a ils – w r i tt e n e m a i ls r e f e r e n c e b u n d le w il l b e m a r k e d
E x h i b i t F F5 . I th in k w e h a d e n t e r e d E x h i b i t 8 – F F8 M s N o r m a n ?
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s w e d i d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

We did ja.

A n d w e e n t e r e d E x h i b i t F F 6 y e s te r d a y

w h e n w e w e r e – a n d I h e a r d t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r M a r ti n s . J a I t h i n k th a t
takes care of everything.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

s a ti s f i e d m a y t h e w i tn e s s p le a s e b e s w o r n in ?

Page 76 of 130

I f t h e C h a ir is

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
CHAIRPERSON:

W i ll y o u a d mi n is t e r t h e o a th t o t h e w it n e s s o r

a ffir m a t i o n ? I f t h e r e is g o i n g t o b e a n e e d fo r th e i n t e r p r e ta t io n o f t h e
o a t h th e i n te r p r e t e r w il l i n te r p r e t b u t Mr N ts h i s i w i ll i n d ic a t e i f h e d o e s
n o t n e e d i n te r p r e t a ti o n f o r th a t p a r t . O h h e s a y s h e d o e s n o t . O k a y.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Ikamalane Thabo

N ts h is i .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c t i o n s t o m a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : N o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o le m n ly a ffi r m th a t a l l t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u w i ll
g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o
p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u l y a ffir m .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I tr u ly a ffi r m .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a j o r N t s h is i i n fr o n t
o f y o u y o u h a v e a p r e s e n ta t io n fi l e w i th E x h i b it F F 6 i n f r o n t o f y o u , is
that correct?

20

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M a jo r N ts h is i c a n y o u p l e a s e j u s t t u r n
t o p a g e 1 c a n y o u i d e n t if y t h a t d o c u m e n t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And what is that document?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Page 77 of 130

That is Exhibit FF6

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
Yo u r W o r s h i p .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

M a jo r N t s h i s i I a m t a lk in g a b o u t t h e

d o c u m e n t i n fr o n t o f y o u , y o u r s ta t e m e n t , i s t h a t y o u r s t a t e m e n t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u t o l d h i m w h e r e t o f in d i t , w h a t p a g e ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s o n p a g e 1 – ja I d i d i n d e e d s o

C h a ir. M a jo r N ts h is i …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th in k lo o k a t – w h e n s h e m e n ti o n s p a g e s l o o k a t t h e
t o p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
10

Ye s I c a n s e e t h a t

Yo u r W o r s h i p .
ADV MPHO RASIVHET SHELE: And can you page – turn to page 2 of
that document?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]:

I h a v e a lr e a d y

opened the page.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Is th a t y o u r s i g n a tu r e a t t h e b o t to m ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e s h o u l d s a y t h e r e i s a s i g n a t u r e t h a t is m u c h
lo w e r a n d h is is h ig h e r t h a n t h a t o n th e p a g e . I s it y o u r s ig n a tu r e th a t
a p p e a r s i m m e d ia t e l y a b o v e t h e w o r d s T G C O p e r a t i o n O ff ic e r a t R o a d
20

AOT?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

T h a t is tr u e Yo u r

Worship I am the one that signed.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a j o r N ts h i s i a r e y o u
s a ti s f i e d w i t h t h e c o n te n ts o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d y o u a t te s t t h a t i t is t h e

Page 78 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
c o n te n ts w i t h i n is tr u e a n d c o r r e c t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s I a m s a t is fi e d

with it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l e x c e p t fo r o n e t h in g t h is d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o b e
a n a ffi d a v it .

I t a p p e a r s t o b e ju s t a s t a t e m e n t I s a id e x c e p t f o r o n e

t h i n g th a t is th a t I s e e t h e r e is a S A P S s t a m p o r th e r e a r e t w o a t p a g e
2 th a t y o u d o n o t s a y in t h a t s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u s t a t e u n d e r o a t h a n d
t h a t d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o b e a n y c e r ti f ic a t i o n b y a c o m m i s s io n e r o f o a t h s
t h a t y o u t o o k a n o a th b e f o r e h i m o r h e r b e f o r e m a k i n g t h e s ta t e m e n t,
10

am I correct?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a jo r N ts h i s i c a n

y o u j u s t g iv e u s a h is t o r y a b o u t y o u r c a r e e r a t th e A i r F o r c e i n th e
m il i ta r y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y b e fo r e h e d o e s s o . T h a t m i g h t b e a l o n g
h is t o r y d o y o u w a n t t o r e l a t e t o w h a t p o s i t io n h e h e l d a t t h e t i m e
o th e r w i s e h e c o u ld g i v e y o u a h i s to r y o f o v e r tw e n ty y e a r s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I n d e e d s o C h a ir. L e t m e ju s t r e p h r a s e
20

t h a t q u e s ti o n . M a jo r N ts h is i fr o m 2 0 1 3 c a n y o u ju s t g iv e u s a h is t o r y o f
y o u r c a r e e r fr o m t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f 2 0 1 3 o n w a r d s ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]:
W o r s h i p I w a s e m p lo y e d a t th e C o m m o n P o s t .
c a l l e d F li g h t C e n tr e .

D u r i n g 2 0 1 3 Yo u r

Th e p l a c e w h ic h w a s

M y r a n k a t t h a t s t a g e Yo u r W o r s h i p I w a s

S e r g e a n t M a j o r N ts h i s i .

Page 79 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t is y o u r p r e s e n t p o s i ti o n ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :
W o r s h i p I a m w o r k i n g a t n u m b e r 4 6 Br i g a d e .
u n i t Yo u r W o r s h i p .

A t t h i s s ta g e Yo u r

4 6 B r ig a d e is a n a r my

B u t w e a ls o h a v e a n A ir Fo r c e o ff ic e t h e r e Yo u r

W o r s h i p . M y r a n k n o w Yo u r W o r s h ip I a m M a jo r N ts h i s i Yo u r W o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n 2 0 1 3 y o u w e r e – w e r e y o u b a s e d a t Wa t e r k lo o f ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

2013 I was at the

C o m m o n P o s t Yo u r W o r s h ip b u t a t t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s Yo u r W o r s h i p o f
t h e A ir Fo r c e Yo u r W o r s h ip .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Proceed.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir I h a v e ju s t r e c e i v e d

w o r d fr o m t h e t e c h n ic a l t e a m t h a t i f M a j o r N t s h is i c o u ld j u s t p u ll t h e
m ic r o p h o n e c l o s e r t o h i m th e y a r e h a v i n g d i ff ic u l ty.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u . M a j o r N ts h i s i t a k i n g i t b a c k
t o th e la n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t in q u e s t io n s a n d i n te r ms o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t – i n t e r m s o f p a r a g r a p h 2 c a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir
t h e p r o c e s s e s th a t w a s fo ll o w e d i n y o u r p o s i ti o n w h e r e y o u w e r e
s t a ti o n e d a t t h e A ir C o m m a n d P o s t?
20

MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]:

I n p a r a g r a p h 2 Yo u r

W o r s h i p t h e r e q u e s t c a m e in t w o f o r m s . W h o e v e r is m a k i n g a r e q u e s t
c a n s e n d it to u s a t t h e C o m m o n P o s t o r Yo u r W o r s h ip th e r e q u e s t c a n
b e s e n t t o D IR C O a n d t h e r e a f te r t o u s a t t h e C o m m o n P o s t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a jo r N t s h i s i a n d i n t h i s in s ta n c e a

r e q u e s t – w a s t h e r e a r e q u e s t g iv e n i n t e r m s o f p r o c e d u r a l ly in t e r m s o f

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
t h e p l a n e la n d i n g a t th e b a s e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ] :

According to the

p r o c e s s e s t h a t w e a r e in t o d a y Yo u r W o r s h ip t h e ir r e q u e s t Yo u r W o r s h ip
c a m e a l l th e w a y f r o m I n d i a Yo u r W o r s h i p c o m in g d o w n to u s Yo u r
Worship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e q u e s t y o u r e f e r to w a s w h a t r e q u e s t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Th e r e q u e s t Yo u r

W o r s h i p t h a t th e r e w a s a fl ig h t t h a t is c o m in g Yo u r W o r s h ip w h ic h is
g o i n g t o l a n d a t W a te r k l o o f Yo u r W o r s h ip .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e t o s t e p b a c k a li t tl e b i t i n th e p o s it i o n w h ic h

y o u h e l d in 2 0 1 3 w h a t w e r e y o u r f u n c ti o n s – y o u d o n o t n e e d t o t e l l u s
a l l o f th e m b u t t h o s e th a t m ig h t b e r e l e v a n t t o w h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g
about today?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Yo u r W o r s h i p a t t h e

a r m y Yo u r W o r s h ip t h e r a n k Yo u r W o r s h i p i s w h a t is i m p o r t a n t . A t th e
ti m e w h e n t h e r e q u e s t w a s s e n t Yo u r W o r s h i p a s I s a y I w a s a S e r g e a n t
M a jo r I w a s w o r k i n g w i th t h e o t h e r t w o Yo u r W o r s h ip w h o w e r e u n d e r
my command.

W h e n t h e r e q u e s t a r r iv e d Yo u r W o r s h i p i t w il l d e p e n d

fr o m t h e p e r s o n w h o s a w t h e r e q u e s t fir s t Yo u r W o r s h ip a s t h e r e w e r e
20

t h r e e o f u s . W i t h t h is Yo u r W o r s h ip t h e r e q u e s t w a s a c tu a lly s e e n b y
m y s e l f Yo u r W o r s h i p a n d I t h e n d e a l t w it h t h e r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e r e q u e s t a s y o u s a i d w a s a r e q u e s t fo r

p e r m is s io n a u t h o r is a ti o n to b e g r a n t e d fo r t h e la n d i n g o f a n a ir c r a f t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s Yo u r W o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s c o n ti n u e .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a m s o r r y h e h a d n o t fi n i s h e d h e h a d s a i d t h e

o n e w h o s a w – w h o s e e s t h e r e q u e s t is t h e o n e w h o a c t s . I t h i n k h e
w a s s ti ll c o n ti n u i n g ju s t f in is h t h a t p a r t o f th e e v i d e n c e .

In t h i s c a s e

y o u s a w it a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Th e r e q u e s t Yo u r

W o r s h i p a f t e r i t a r r iv e d a s i t w a s f r o m t h e I n d i a n E m b a s s y i t is th e
d u t ie s Yo u r W o r s h i p o f t h e p e r s o n w h o r e c e iv e d t h e r e q u e s t Yo u r
W o r s h i p t o o r g a n is e it . A s I a m t h e o n e w h o r e c e i v e d i t Yo u r W o r s h i p I
10

w a s th e o n e w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o p r o c e s s i t Yo u r W o r s h ip b y s e n d i n g i t
t o th e g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts Yo u r W o r s h i p .

The government

d e p a r t m e n ts Yo u r W o r s h i p m e n t io n e d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s c o n t in u e i f y o u h a v e n o t f in is h e d .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h e d e p a r t m e n ts I a m
t a lk in g a b o u t Yo u r W o r s h i p s o m e o f t h e m t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t is D I R C O .
A f t e r I r e c e iv e d th is r e q u e s t Yo u r W o r s h i p w e s e n d t h e r e q u e s t t o a ll
t h e s e i m p o r t a n t d e p a r t m e n ts Yo u r W o r s h i p w h ic h a r e m e n ti o n e d h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

And

maybe

you

can

just

m e n ti o n e d

those

d e p a r t m e n ts , m e n t io n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 3 .
20

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
is Tr a ffic N a v i g a t io n S y s t e m .

AT N S – AT N S w h ic h

C A A C i v i l Av i a ti o n A u t h o r i ty.

Th e n t h e

D O T w h ic h i s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . A n d t h e n th e D F R D e fe n c e
F o r e i g n R e la t io n s . A n d t h e n t h e S S O w h i c h is t h e S e n io r S t a ff O ffi c e r.
A n d t h e n D H A t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s . A n d t h e n t h e C J O p s
C h i e f J o in t O p e r a t i o n s Yo u r W o r s h ip .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

The request Major

N ts h is i t h e r e q u e s t t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t C h a ir I w o u ld ju s t lik e to
r e fe r t h e C h a ir t o Ex h i b it F F 8 o n t h e a d d i ti o n a l b u n d le . P a g e 2 7 .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : P a g e ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d it c o n ti n u e s C h a i r t o p a g e 2 8 a n d
29.
CHAIRPERSON:

H a v e y o u g o t t h e r ig h t f il e ?

I t s h o u l d b e w r i t te n

E x h i b i t F F8 o n t h e s p i n e . F F 8 .
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

F F 8 Yo u r W o r s h ip

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y p a g e 2 7 . 2 7 is – i s t h e r e 0 2 7 ? Yo u w il l s e e o n
t h e r ig h t h a n d to p c o r n e r i t w i ll b e w r i t t e n W K A E D I I N F O 0 2 7 b u t w h e n
s h e r e fe r s to p a g e s s h e w il l n o t m e n t io n a l l th e s e le t t e r s a n d s h e w il l
n o t m e n ti o n t h e 0 b e f o r e 2 7 . S h e w i ll ju s t s a y 2 7 .

So if that has not

b e e n e x p l a i n e d y o u c a n b e c o n f u s e d . O k a y y o u h a v e fo u n d i t .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s Yo u r W o r s h i p .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
20

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a jo r N ts h i s i c a n

M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

O v e r fli g h t a n d

y o u j u s t i d e n t if y t h a t d o c u m e n t?

la n d i n g c l e a r a n c e Yo u r W o r s h i p .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d is t h is th e d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s

r e c e i v e d b y th e C o m m a n d P o s t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .

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A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d a f t e r r e c e i v i n g t h is d o c u m e n t w h a t
s t e p s d i d y o u ta k e i n t e r m s o f t h is d o c u m e n t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

A s I h a v e a lr e a d y

t e s ti fi e d b e f o r e a f t e r r e c e iv i n g s u c h a r e q u e s t y o u s e n d i t to d i ff e r e n t
d e p a r t m e n ts Yo u r W o r s h i p . B u t t h e h i g h e s t d e p a r t m e n t is D I R C O Yo u r
Worship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k y o u m a y w a n t to ju s t c o m p le t e th e p r o c e s s
that you explained and I see in paragraph 4 it says: once the process
h a s b e e n c o m p le t e d t h e n y o u s a y w h a t h a p p e n s th e n y o u c a n d e a l w i th
10

t h e q u e s t i o n o f w h e t h e r th a t i s w h a t y o u d i d w i th t h is r e q u e s t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

A f te r y o u s h a l l h a v e

s e n t t h i s r e q u e s t Yo u r W o r s h i p to th e s p e c i f ic d e p a r t m e n ts Yo u r
W o r s h i p i t is t h e n y o u r d u ty Yo u r W o r s h i p t o m a k e a f o l l o w u p a s t o
w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g a b o u t th a t Yo u r W o r s h i p .

As t h e y a r e s ti ll b u s y

c h e c k i n g o n i t Yo u r W o r s h ip y o u w i ll w a i t fo r th a t p e r i o d .

After you

s h a l l h a v e w a i te d Yo u r W o r s h i p a n d th e y w i ll t h e n s e n d y o u a f e e d b a c k
a s to w h a t is a c tu a l ly h a p p e n in g a b o u t i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Who would – who would come back to you?

Is i t

D IR C O o r i s i t a ll o f t h e d e p a r t m e n ts t o w h ic h y o u w o u l d h a v e s e n t i t ?
20

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : D I R C O Yo u r W o r s h ip .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y y e s a n d w h a t a r e t h e p o s s ib le r e s p o n s e s t h a t

c o u l d c o m e fr o m D I R C O i n a n y p a r t ic u l a r c a s e w h e n y o u h a v e s e n t
t h e m t h is k in d o f r e q u e s t ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Th e a n s w e r m ig h t b e
that continue with the request.

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if t h e y s a y c o n ti n u e w it h th e r e q u e s t w h a t d o e s
that mean?

I s i t th a t t h e y a r e h a p p y w it h i t y o u s h o u ld d o w h a t y o u

need to do?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]: After they sent us the
e m a i l t h a t w e m u s t c o n ti n u e w i th t h e r e q u e s t Yo u r W o r s h ip I m e a n
C h a ir p e r s o n w e a s w e a r e a t t h e C o m m a n d P o s t . I f t h e y s a y w e m u s t
p r o c e e d Yo u r W o r s h i p t h e y c a l l i t i n a n E n g l is h w o r d w h ic h n o te v e r b a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ] : As t h e C o m m a n d P o s t
10

if y o u d i d n o t r e c e iv e i n f o r m a ti o n w h ic h s a y s c o n ti n u e w i t h th e r e q u e s t
you do not have the powers to can – continue with such a request.
CHAIRPERSON: So am I correct that you can expect either to receive
t h e n o te v e r b a l i n w h i c h c a s e y o u c o n ti n u e a n d g iv e c o n s i d e r a t i o n t o
t h e r e q u e s t f o r c le a r a n c e o r y o u d o n o t r e c e i v e a n y t h i n g fr o m D I R C O i n
w h ic h c a s e y o u d o n o t g iv e f u r t h e r c o n s i d e r a ti o n t o th e r e q u e s t ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI
C h a ir p e r s o n .

( t hr o u g h

interpreter):

That

is

correct

Yo u o n ly c o n t in u e i f y o u g e t a m e s s a g e fr o m D I R C O

w h ic h s a y s y o u c a n c o n t i n u e b u t i f y o u d o n o t g e t s u c h in f o r m a t io n y o u
d o n o t h a v e a n y p o w e r s t o c o n t in u e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u d o n o t g e t t h e n o t e v e r b a l b u t s o m e b o d y t e l ls
y o u t e le p h o n ic a l ly th a t y o u m a y p r o c e e d .

Do you have power to

p r o c e e d a n d c o n s i d e r th e r e q u e s t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

C h a ir p e r s o n b e f o r e I

c a n a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n th e p e r s o n w i t h w h o m w e w e r e w o r k i n g h a n d
in h a n d a t th a t s p e c i f ic p o i n t w a s M r W i ll i a m M a t ji la y o u r w o r s h ip w h i c h

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
m e a n s y o u r w o r s h ip s o m e t i m e s w e c o u l d r e c e i v e a m e s s a g e w il l s a y
y o u c a n c o n t in u e w i t h s u c h a r e q u e s t. I f I a m a n s w e r i n g y o u r q u e s ti o n
C h a ir p e r s o n i t d o e s n o t h a p p e n th a t y o u c a n c o n t in u e y o u r w o r s h i p o n l y
a ft e r r e c e i v i n g a t e l e p h o n ic c o n fir m a t i o n y o u r w o r s h ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d a n o t e v e r b a l i s a s p e c i fi c d o c u m e n t?
INTERPRETER: Pardon Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s a n o t e v e r b a l a s p e c if ic d o c u m e n t t h a t g iv e s y o u

t h is g o a h e a d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
10

Ye s y o u r w o r s h i p i t

m u s t b e a d o c u m e n t y o u r w o r s h ip w i t h a ll t h e p a r t ic u l a r s y o u r w o r s h ip
o f t h e r e q u e s t w h i c h w i ll s a y y o u c a n c o n ti n u e y o u r w o r s h ip .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a m I c o r r e c t i n u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t i t is n o t j u s t

a n y d o c u m e n t i n w r i ti n g .

I t h a s to b e a n o t e v e r b a l b e f o r e y o u c a n

p r o c e e d th a t y o u a r e g iv e n b y D I R C O ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . C o n ti n u e . I th i n k w e w i ll t a k e t h e l u n c h
break at quarter past.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir s in c e w e a r e o n t h e n o t e v e r b a l

t o p ic i f C h a ir c a n p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 8 7 o f B u n d l e F F 8 ?
CHAIRPERSON: 87?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 87.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M a j o r N ts h is i a r e y o u t h e r e ?

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s I a m t h e r e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a jo r N t s h i s i c a n y o u i d e n ti f y t h is

document?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

T h is is t h e n o t e

v e r b a l fr o m D IR C O y o u r w o r s h i p .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : J u s t to b e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k i t is a n o t e v e r b a l n o t a n y p a r t ic u l a r o n e

r e l a ti n g t o t h is in c i d e n t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
I N T E R P R E T E R : C o m e a g a in C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I t is – is i t a n o te v e r b a l a n d n o t t h e n o t e v e r b a l

r e l a ti n g t o t h is in c i d e n t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

N o i t is n o t t h i s o n e

y o u r w o r s h i p . T h is is ju s t y o u r w o r s h i p a c o p y w h i c h s h o w s th a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Ye s .

No, I understand that.

It is – it is an

e x a m p l e o f a n o t e v e r b a l . O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I n d e e d s o C h a ir. T h is w a s a d o c u m e n t
r e c e i v e d fr o m D I R C O j u s t fo r a n e x a m p le w h a t a n o t e v e r b a l w o u l d l o o k
lik e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t – h o w i t l o o k e d lik e - l o o k s lik e , j a . T h a n k y o u .
20

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d th e n o te v e r b a l - j u s t t o a d d C h a i r
w o u ld u s u a ll y a s r e l a y e d b y D I R C O – w o u l d u s u a l ly h a v e t h e e m b le m o f
t h e c o u n t r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e q u e s t i n g c o u n tr y ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e r e q u e s t in g c o u n tr y …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d if y o u l o o k a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e

p a g e C h a ir y o u w il l t h e n s e e a s t a m p f r o m t h e e m b a s s y o f t h e r e p u b l ic
o f t h a t – th is p a r t ic u l a r c o u n t r y o n th a t n o t e v e r b a l.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, thank you.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir I w o u l d j u s t a ls o j u s t li k e t o r e f e r
t o a n o t h e r e x h i b i t fi le . It w o u l d b e o n p a g e 1 - 9 - 8 o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h e x h i b i t ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: EXHIBIT FF4.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e o n th a t o n e ?
10

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : 1 - 9 - 8 C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 1-9-8.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M a j o r N ts h is i a r e y o u o n p a g e 1 - 9 - 8 ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Th e l o w e r h a l f o f t h a t d o c u m e n t c a n

y o u i d e n ti f y t h is – i t – it p a r tic u la r ly r e l a te s t o a n e m a il .

Can you

id e n t i fy fr o m w h o i t is fr o m t o w h o m ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . Ye s I c a n .
20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C a n y o u p l e a s e r e l a y th a t – c a n y o u

ju s t t a lk w h o i t c o m e s fr o m ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI (through interpreter):

U s u a l ly a s I h a v e

a lr e a d y s ta t e d y o u r w o r s h i p th is e m a i l w a s fr o m M r M a t ji l a .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : To w h o m ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Page 88 of 130

To u s a t C o m m a n d

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
P o s t w h e r e I w a s w o r k in g a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

And can you see the – can you just

r e a d o u t t h e s u b j e c t li n e o f th a t e m a il ?
CHAIRPERSON: Well you should just read – read that yourself …
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e r e is i n t e r p r e t a t i o n .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : As t h e C h a ir p le a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

S u b je c t li n e :

A r e q u e s t f o r fl ig h t

c le a r a n c e s In d ia n d e le g a ti o n .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I c a n s e e w h a t is

b e i n g w r i tt e n h e r e y o u r w o r s h i p b u t t w i c e y o u r w o r s h i p – t h e fir s t o n e
y o u r w o r s h ip it i s – w h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e s t a te v is it t h a t i n d i c a t e s th a t
Mr Koloane approved and the second one it says:
“ D e a r c o l le a g u e s , p l e a s e s e e t h e m e s s a g e b e l o w
y o u r u r g e n t a s s is t a n c e a n d i n fo r m a t i o n . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th in k i t is fi n e . H e r e a d i t in E n g l is h . S o i t is fi n e ,
ja .
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I s e e t h e – t h e o n e e m a il t h a t s a y s :
“Please

see

message

below

for

your

urgent

a s s is t a n c e a n d in f o r m a t io n . ”
T h e o n e t h a t I a m s tr u g g li n g t o s e e is t h e o n e h e m e n t io n e d e a r l i e r
a b o u t Mr K o l o a n e . O h , is i t th e t o p e m a il ju s t a b o v e th e – w h e r e it is
regards Les Lombard.

I s i t th e s e n t e n c e a b o v e th a t th a t y o u r e a d o r

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s y o u r w o r s h i p t h a t
is w h a t I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . Yo u s a i d y o u c a n t a l k a b o u t t h e s e
t w o is s u e s ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : W h e n I …
CHAIRPERSON: 1-9-9.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Tu r n t h e p a g e to p a g e
1 - 9 - 9 t h e f ir s t o n e th a t I r e a d i n p a g e 1 - 9 - 8 …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I t d o e s n o t e x a c t ly

s p e c i f y a s w h a t is s a i d i n p a g e 1 - 9 - 9 y o u r w o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o t h a t is a lr ig h t . M a y b e t h i s is t h e r ig h t t i m e
f o r u s t o t a k e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d th e n w e w il l c o m e b a c k a n d
c o n ti n u e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e g o in g to t a k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e

w i ll r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r p a s t t w o . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
20

H E A R IN G A D J O U R N S
H E A R IN G R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o m e o f t h e – m o s t o f th e f a c ts a r e a r o u n d

M r N ts h is i ’s e v i d e n c e i s n o t c o n t r o v e r s i a l. S o w e c a n m o v e p r e t ty fa s t

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
lik e w h a t l e tt e r h e w r o t e . W e c a n m o v e fa s t o n t h o s e t h i n g s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : As t h e C h a ir p le a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir j u s t t o to u c h b a s e w e w e r e o n –
M a jo r N ts h i s i w a s ta lk i n g to t h e e m a il o n p a g e 1 9 9 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

A n d h e w a s ta lk in g t o th a t e m a i l .

M a jo r N ts h i s i c a n y o u p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 1 9 9 to t h e p r e v io u s e m a il .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Yo u b r o u g h t i t t o t h e C h a i r ’s a t te n ti o n

a b o u t th a t p a r t ic u l a r e m a il . Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u w a n t t o t a l k to t h a t
email about?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s g o a h e a d .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

What I wanted to

e x p l a i n i s t h a t t h e r e q u e s t t h a t c a m e fr o m D I R C O - t h a t is n o w fr o m
M r M a tji l a - t h a t is t h e e m a il t h a t e x p la i n s w h e t h e r w e c a n c o n ti n u e
w i t h t h a t r e q u e s t.
20

T h a t is t h e e m a il y o u r w o r s h i p th a t c a u s e d t h e

C o m m a n d P o s t - t h a t is th e e m a il o r t h e e m a il t h a t c a u s e d th a t w e m u s t
a g r e e t o t h e e m a i l to c o n ti n u e o p e n i n g t h e n u m b e r y o u r w o r s h ip t o g i v e
a c c e s s t o th e fl ig h t to c o m e in y o u r w o r s h i p .
I f I c a n e x p l a i n a b o u t th e n u m b e r t h a t I a m r e f e r r i n g to .
E n g l is h l a n g u a g e y o u r w o r s h i p it i s c a ll e d a c l e a r a n c e n u m b e r.

In

After

y o u g o t t h e m a n d a te t h a t y o u c a n c o n ti n u e y o u r w o r s h ip t h a t is w h e n

Page 91 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
y o u o p e n u p t h e n u m b e r s o th a t y o u c a n c o n t in u e f o r t h y o u r w o r s h ip …
CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean you …?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : W i th t h e r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o e s t h a t m e a n y o u a ll o c a te a c l e a r a n c e n u m b e r t o

t h e p a r tic u l a r r e q u e s t ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI (through interpreter):

T h a t is s o y o u r

worship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C o n ti n u e a n d w h a t fo ll o w s a f t e r th a t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
10

After you shall have

r e c e i v e d a l l t h e i n f o r m a t io n o r t h e p a r t i c u l a r s y o u r w o r s h i p a s t h e
p e r s o n w h o – w h o w a s a c tu a l ly b u s y w i th t h is r e q u e s t. I m u s t t h e n g o
a n d e x p la in t o m y c o m m a n d e r a s t o fr o m w h e n u p w h e r e w h a t a n d w h a t
d i d I d o . T h e n I w i ll d o t h a t. E x p l a i n to h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o – w h o w a s y o u r s u p e r v i s o r o r c o m m a n d e r a t th e
ti m e ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

L i e u te n a n t

C o l o n e l Va n Zy l y o u r w o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y c o n ti n u e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
20

M a jo r N ts h is i I w o u l d j u s t l ik e to t a k e

y o u t o B u n d l e / E X H I B I T F F 4 p a g e 1 - 9 - 3 . A r e y o u t h e r e M a j o r N t s h is i ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e – I a m s o r r y. B e f o r e w e m o v e t o t h a t – t h e –
t h e e m a i l th a t c a m e fr o m M r M a t ji la w h a t p a g e w a s i t a g a i n ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: One …
CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember it?

Page 92 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 1-9-9.
CHAIRPERSON:

1-9-9.

M a j o r N ts h is i I ju s t w a n t t o g o t o t h e l e t te r

t h a t y o u s a y g a v e y o u c le a r a n c e o r g a v e y o u a g o a h e a d th a t w a s f r o m
M a t jil a . I s i t th e o n e a t p a g e 1 - 9 - 9 ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Yo u r

w o r s h i p /C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u c a n s t a r t a t 1 - 9 - 8 a n d t h e n t o p a g e 1 - 9 - 9 .
Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t Mr M a t ji la e m a il e d u s y o u r w o r s h i p th e p l a c e w h e r e
we were working – the Command Post. W hen we come to page 1-9-9 it
is w h e r e h e is n o w s e n d i n g u s th e m e s s a g e t h a t is c o m i n g fr o m
10

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e y o u r w o r s h i p .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w I h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e th a t n o t e v e r y

a ir c r a f t c a n j u s t l a n d a t Wa t e r k lo o f a n d t h a t o n l y c e r t a i n a ir c r a f ts i n
t e r m s o f w h o th e y a r e – t h e ir p a s s e n g e r s a r e m a y b e a l l o w e d t o – t o
la n d .

A r e y o u a b l e to t e ll m e u n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s o r w h a t

a ir c r a f t s m a y b e a l lo w e d t o la n d o r w h a t b u s i n e s s o r p a s s e n g e r s t h e y
s h o u l d c a r r y b e f o r e t h e y c a n b e a l lo w e d t o l a n d g e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g a t
Wa t e r k l o o f ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI (through interpreter):

According to my

k n o w l e d g e o n l y t h r e e p e o p l e g iv e n p e r mi s s io n o r a l l o w e d t o l a n d a t th e
20

a ir b a s e y o u r w o r s h ip .

T h e f ir s t o n e i s t h e Pr e s i d e n t .

T h e D e p u ty

P r e s i d e n t y o u r w o r s h i p a n d a n y o th e r p e r s o n th a t s h a ll h a v e b e e n s e n t
b y th e P r e s i d e n t to d o G o v e r n m e n t d u ti e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d o f c o u r s e a n d m i li ta r y a ir c r a f t ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

a l lo w e d .

Page 93 of 130

Th e y

are

a ls o

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d I h e a r d e v i d e n c e t h a t i f a n a ir c r a ft is c a r r y i n g
M i n is t e r s t h a t a ls o c a n b e a l lo w e d .

Does that accord with your

u n d e r s t a n d in g ? M in is t e r s n o t – n o t Pr i m e M i n is t e r s , M i n i s t e r s . I th i n k
y o u r i n te r p r e t a ti o n w a s Pr i m e M i n is t e r s .
I N T E R P R E T E R : N o I s a i d M i n is te r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r Pr e m i e r s .
I N T E R P R E T E R : M i n is te r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( Is i Z u lu ) . O k a y. M i n is t e r s w o u l d t h a t b e a ll o w e d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
10

N o i t is n o t a ll o w e d

your worship.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

N o w i n th e le t t e r t h a t c a m e f r o m M r M a tj il a

w a s th e r e a n y in d ic a ti o n - i n t h e l e tt e r t h a t g a v e y o u a g o a h e a d – w a s
t h e r e a n y i n d ic a ti o n t h a t th is w a s a n a i r c r a f t t h a t w o u ld fa ll w i t h i n
c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e it s h o u l d b e p e r m i t t e d t o l a n d a t W a t e r k lo o f ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I t w a s n o t c l e a r y o u r
worship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n o r d e r f o r it t o b e c l e a r w o u l d th e l e t te r fr o m
o r th e c o m m u n ic a t i o n fr o m M r M a tj il a h a v e h a d to m e n ti o n t h a t t h e
p l a n e w o u ld b e c a r r y i n g t h e P r e s i d e n t o r D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t ?
20

Is t h a t

what you were looking for?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no.

I w il l r e p e a t t h e q u e s t i o n .

In order for the

le t t e r fr o m Mr M a t ji la to c o n v e y t o y o u t h a t t h is w a s a n a i r c r a ft th a t
w o u ld b e p e r m i t te d to la n d d i d y o u e x p e c t i t t o t e l l y o u t h a t t h e a i r c r a ft
w o u ld b e c a r r y i n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t o r D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t ? Is t h a t w h a t y o u

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
w e r e lo o k i n g f o r ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

B e fo r e I c a n a n s w e r

t h a t q u e s t i o n C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n th e y s e n d t h e r e p o r t y o u r w o r s h i p th e r e
w o u ld b e a c t u a ll y a r e a s o n o r a – j a – a r e a s o n y o u r w o r s h i p a s t o w h y
t h e r e q u e s t i ts e l f a n d t h e r e a s o n y o u r w o r s h i p w a s n o t c l e a r ly
u n d e r s t o o d w h a t th e r e a s o n a c t u a ll y w a s y o u r w o r s h ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s a y w h e n t h e y s e n d th e r e q u e s t t h e y w o u ld
s t a te th e r e a s o n a r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t t h e r e q u e s t t h a t w o u l d c o m e
fr o m a n o t h e r c o u n tr y ?
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n y o u s a y i n th is c a s e t h e le t t e r d i d n o t – f r o m
t h e le t t e r t h e r e a s o n w a s n o t c le a r. Ar e y o u r e fe r r i n g t o t h e l e t t e r - t h a t
r e q u e s t t h a t c a m e fr o m I n d ia ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Q u it e c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t a b o u t t h e l e t te r fr o m Mr M a t ji la d i d y o u

e x p e c t i t t o g iv e y o u i n f o r m a ti o n th a t w o u l d s a tis f y y o u t h a t th is w a s a n
a ir c r a f t t h a t s h o u l d b e p e r m i t t e d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s t h a t i s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld it b e p o s s ib l e t h a t i f t h e l e t t e r fr o m Mr M a t ji la
20

d i d n o t s a ti s f y y o u t h a t t h i s w o u l d b e a n a i r c r a f t t h a t s h o u l d b e
p e r m it t e d w o u l d it b e p o s s ib le t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t p r o c e e d t o p r o c e s s
t h e r e q u e s t o r is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t o n c e y o u g o t a l e t te r fr o m M r M a tj il a
y o u j u s t h a d t o p r o c e e d a n d p r o c e s s th e r e q u e s t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I could not have

p r o c e e d e d y o u r w o r s h i p i f I d id n o t g e t s u c h a le t t e r y o u r w o r s h i p .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t m y q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r i t w a s u p to y o u to

e x a m in e th e c o n t e n ts o f th e l e t te r fr o m M r M a tj il a a n d m a k e a d e c is io n
w h e t h e r y o u – i t i s f in e y o u c a n g o a h e a d a n d p r o c e s s t h e r e q u e s t a n d
a p p r o v e i f y o u w e r e th e o n e t o a p p r o v e o r w h e t h e r a s l o n g a s
M r M a tji l a s a i d i n h is l e tt e r g o a h e a d a n d a p p r o v e t h e n y o u w e r e b o u n d
to go ahead and approve?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I w o u l d n o t h a v e a n y
p o w e r s y o u r w o r s h i p o r t h e m i g h t o f c o n ti n u i n g y o u r w o r s h ip i f th a t w a s
the case.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f y o u w e r e n o t s a ti s fi e d w i th t h e c o n t e n t s o f th e

le t t e r f r o m M r M a t ji la y o u w o u l d n o t p r o c e e d y o u w o u l d n o t p r o c e s s t h e
r e q u e s t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d d id t h e l e t t e r f r o m M r M a t ji la in t h i s

p a r t ic u l a r c a s e s a ti s fy y o u t h a t t h is w a s a c a s e w h e r e y o u s h o u l d
p r o c e s s t h e r e q u e s t a n d if y o u w e r e t h e p e r s o n t o a p p r o v e th e r e q u e s t
t o a ls o a p p r o v e i t?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

(through

interpreter):

I

do

not

know

C h a ir p e r s o n i f I c a n s t a r t a l i t tl e b it b e h i n d a n d e x p l a i n c o m in g f u r t h e r
20

t o t h i s l e tt e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y d o s o b e c a u s e i t is a n i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f
your evidence.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

A s I h a v e a lr e a d y

s t a te d th a t m a n y a ti m e s a t D I R C O I a m w o r k in g h a n d in h a n d w i th
M r M a tji l a .

W h e n I a s k e d t h e r e q u e s t b y t h e I n d ia n p e o p l e a s t o h o w

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
f a r i t i s s o th a t w e c a n c o n t in u e w i t h i t a n d t h e n I e x p l a i n e d to h i m t h e
r e a s o n w h y I a m c a ll in g h i m a l w a y s y o u r w o r s h i p t e l li n g h i m t h a t t h e
p e o p l e f r o m I n d i a y o u r w o r s h i p th e y w a n t t o k n o w h o w f a r th e i r r e q u e s t
has gone your worship.
W h e n I s p o k e t o Mr M a t ji la t h a t is w h e n h e t h e n i n f o r m e d m e
t h a t t h is is s u e is n o m o r e i n h is h a n d s y o u r w o r s h ip .

T h a t is w h e r e

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e ’s n a m e t h e n s u r f a c e d y o u r w o r s h ip .
your

worship

th a t

gave

us

the

go

ahead

to

The email

c o n ti n u e

your

w o r s h i p /C h a ir p e r s o n w a s a c tu a l ly w r i t t e n b y Mr M a t ji la – t h e e m a i l w a s
10

w r i t t e n b y M r M a tj il a w h i c h i s t h e e m a i l t h a t w a s fr o m M r K o l o a n e t h a t
w e m u s t c o n ti n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I f t h e r e w a s n o t s u c h
a n e m a i l o r l e t t e r w e s h o u l d n o t h a v e c o n ti n u e d w i t h t h e r e q u e s t b u t
in s t e a d y o u r w o r s h ip it d o e s n o t lo o k l ik e t h e o n e th a t w e n o r m a ll y g e t.
T h e n o t e v e r b a l t h a t i s c o m i n g fr o m D I R C O to C o m m a n d P o s t d o e s n o t
lo o k lik e th is o n e . T h a t is w h y I s a y t h is is a n e m a i l th a t is c o m i n g f r o m
D IR C O b u t t h e n o t e v e r b a l d o e s n o t lo o k li k e th is o n e y o u r w o r s h ip .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s .

I u n d e r s t o o d y o u e a r l i e r o n t o s a y th e o n ly

d o c u m e n t t h a t g iv e s y o u a g o a h e a d f o r – t o a l lo w a c o m m e r c i a l a i r c r a ft
t o l a n d a t W a t e r k l o o f is a n o te v e r b a l . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is le t t e r th a t y o u s a y g a v e y o u a g o a h e a d fr o m
M r M a tji l a w a s n o t a n o t e v e r b a l. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

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It was not a note

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
v e r b a l w h ic h w e n o r m a l ly h a d to d o w it h y o u r w o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D i d i t l o o k li k e a n o te v e r b a l e v e n i f i t i s n o t t h e
o n e y o u n o r m a ll y w o r k w i t h ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

T h is o n e s a y s g o

a h e a d w i t h t h e r e q u e s t y o u r w o r s h ip b e c a u s e it c o m e s fr o m t h e h i g h e s t
r a n k y o u r w o r s h ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t is ju s t a n e m a il ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d th a t y o u w o u ld n o t p r o c e s s
10

it b e c a u s e it w a s n o t a n o te v e r b a l . W h y – w h y d id y o u n e v e r t h e l e s s
p r o c e s s it ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I d o n o t k n o w i f I c a n
g o b a c k a b i t u n ti l I c o m e t o t h is e m a i l y o u r w o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e . I t i s i m p o r ta n t , j a .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

The reason why we

c o n ti n u e d y o u r w o r s h i p a s f a r a s th is e m a il is c o n c e r n e d I h a d a lr e a d y
s p o k e n t o t w o p e o p l e y o u r w o r s h i p w h o m I w a s n o t u s e d to t a l k t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
20

Th e fir s t o n e w a s

C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n . T h e s e c o n d o n e w a s M r K o lo a n e . As I h a v e a l r e a d y
s t a te d t h a t t h is le t t e r s a i d t h e r e q u e s t fr o m t h e I n d i a n f li g h t t o g o a n d
la n d a t th e a ir b a s e is a l l o w e d . Th a t i s w h y i t g a v e u s t h e m i g h t y o u r
w o r s h i p / Mr C h a ir to c o n ti n u e w i t h th e r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u f in d o u t w h y y o u w e r e n o t b e i n g f u r n is h e d

w i t h a n o t e v e r b a l a s is – a s w a s n o r m a l?

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : Yo u r w o r s h ip in ta lk s
w i t h Mr M a t ji la h e t o l d m e th a t th is i s s u e w a s n o m o r e i n h is h a n d s .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. Does that mean you did ask him why – why
a m I n o t g e t ti n g a n o t e v e r b a l a s i s n o r m a l o r is t h e p o s i t io n th a t y o u
d i d n o t a s k th a t q u e s t io n ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : W e c a m e to t h a t ta lk
y o u r w o r s h i p a n d t h a t is w h e n h e t h e n e x p l a i n e d t o m e t h a t t h a t i s s u e
is n o m o r e i n h is o w n h a n d s a n d t h a t t h o s e – th a t is s u e is n o w in th e
hands of Mr Koloane.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a n d I a s s u m e t h a t t h e r e a f te r y o u h a d s o m e
d is c u s s io n w i t h M r K o l o a n e to s e e w h e t h e r h e w a s t h e o n e w h o w a s
g o i n g to g iv e y o u a n e x p l a n a t io n a s t o w h y y o u w e r e n o t b e i n g g iv e n a
n o t e v e r b a l i n th is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e a s y o u – a s i t u s e d t o b e n o r m a l ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s I d i d a s k h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: And what did he say?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I: ( Is i Z u l u ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

We have a statute

s e e i n g t h a t i t is n o w q u i te l o n g s i n c e 2 0 1 3 . I c a n n o t b e a b l e to r e q u ir e
20

t h e e x a c t w o r d th a t h e u tt e r e d t h r o u g h h is m o u th y o u r w o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : T h e d o c u m e n t t h a t is
in fr o n t o f m e is E X H I B I T F F 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

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Th e r e is w h e r e I

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a g r e e w i t h t h e r e p o r t a s t o w h a t w e r e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t w i th M r K o l o a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I: P a r a g r a p h 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: On what page?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I

( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Page 2 paragraph

eight.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) :

Th o s e a r e t h e t a l k s

b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d M r K h o lo a n e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I

( t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ) :

T h o s e ta lk s , Yo u r

W o r s h i p , w e r e ta k e n f r o m t h e c l u s te r r e p o r t w h ic h is o n p a g e 8
p a r a g r a p h 2 .1 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I w il l l e t y o u c o n ti n u e ju s t n o w. I j u s t w a n t
t o s a tis fy m y s e l f o n t h i s a s p e c t . I ’ m g o i n g to t h e r e p o r t o f th e J C P S
c lu s te r. Is th a t w h e r e y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g u s t o ? Ye s ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) :

Can we make some

c o r r e c t io n s ? P a g e 8 fr o m t h e r e p o r t, Yo u r W o r s h i p , w h ic h is p a r a g r a p h
2 .1 . 1 8 , Yo u r W o r s h i p .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A t p a g e 8 a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e , o h p a g e 8 o f th e

r e p o r t w h ic h i s p a g e 1 2 o f th e p a g i n a te d E x h i b it F F 1 .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Indeed so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 . 1 8 . T h e r e is a r e p o r t s a y s .
T h e C h i e f o f S t a te p r o t o c o l th e n c a ll e d S e r g e a n t M a j o r N ts h i s i
a n d s ta t e d a n d is q u o te d , ‘‘ I b e li e v e y o u h a v e s p o k e n t o C o l o n e l

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A n d e r s o n ? ’’ N ts h is i c o n f ir m e d t h is a n d s t a te d t h a t h e w o u l d g o a h e a d
w i t h t h e c l e a r a n c e i m m e d ia t e l y. N ts h i s i a s k e d w h e th e r h e s h o u ld fa x
t h e c l e a r a n c e to M r M a tj il a ; M r W i ll ia m M a t jil a d ir e c to r a t e S t a t e v is i t
D e r c o . T h e C h ie f o f S t a t e p r o t o c o l a s k e d w h e r e N t s h is i w a s a t t h e ti m e
a n d w a s u n a b l e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e e x p l a n a t io n g iv e n . H e t h e n r e q u e s te d
N ts h is i t o e m a il a c o p y o f t h e c l e a r a n c e t o h is p r i v a t e e m a il a d d r e s s
a n d to h i s o ff ic ia l e m a il a d d r e s s .
Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI
10

( t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Ye s , th a t w a s th e

t a lk s b e tw e e n m e a n d M r K h o l o a n e , Yo u r W o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t d o e s n ’ t r e f le c t t h a t t w o o f y o u t a lk e d a b o u t w h y
y o u w e r e n o t b e i n g f u r n is h e d w it h a n o te v e r b a l . M a y b e it is s o m e w h e r e
e ls e . D o y o u k n o w w h e r e i t is s o m e w h e r e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) : I f w e g o b a c k a g a i n
C h a ir p e r s o n o n t h e s a m e r e p o r t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : P a g e 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : P a r a g r a p h 2 . 11 7

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

(through Interpreter):

Th a t w a s t h e t a l k s

b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n w h ic h c o n ti n u e s u n t il th e ta lk s
b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d C o lo n e l K h o l o a n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , j a . P a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 . 1 7 a t p a g e 1 2 o f E x h ib i t F F1

w h ic h is th e r e p o r t o f t h e J C P S c l u s t e r s a y s , L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A n d e r s o n r e tu r n s S e r g e a n t M a j o r N t s h is i’s c a l l . A n d e r s o n s t a te d t h a t
s h e h a d j u s t s p o k e n t o t h e C h i e f o f S t a t e p r o to c o l w h o h a d i n f o r m e d
h e r t h a t N t s h is i h a d r e j e c t e d t h e r e q u e s t . S h e q u e s t io n e d h i m a s t o h o w
h e c o u l d h a v e r e f u s e d s u c h a r e q u e s t fr o m t h e C h i e f o f S t a t e p r o t o c o l .
N ts h is i c l a r i f ie d t h a t h e h a d r e q u e s t e d w r it t e n c o n fir m a t io n . A n d e r s o n
t h e n s t a t e d th a t “i n c o n f i d e n ti a l i ty I m u s t b e v e r y c a r e f u l n o w. O u r
n u m b e r o n e k n o w s a b o u t t h is . I t is p o l it i c a l . A l l o w t h e m . I w i ll p h o n e
t h e A m b a s s a d o r b a c k to f i n d o u t w h o is t h e s e n io r M i n is t e r. ” N t s h is i
a s k e d A n d e r s o n t o c o n f ir m t h a t th e b a s e c o u ld o n ly r e c e i v e fl i g h ts
10

c a r r y i n g H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d M i n is te r s . A n d e r s o n r e s p o n d e d t h a t , “ i t
d e p e n d s o n t h e v is it t y p e a n d t h a t i t w o u l d b e a c c e p t a b l e f o r a p r iv a t e
v is it i f D e r c o a p p r o v e s i t i s n o t a p r o b l e m . Ye s , m y d e a r t h e y c a n . ” S o
you say that is what you were told when you kept on asking why you
w e r e n o t b e i n g f u r n i s h e d w i th a n o t e v e r b a l? Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , t h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. I f I j u s t m a y a s s is t ?
T h e r e is a d o c u m e n t o n E x h ib i t F F 1 o n p a g e 1 2 3 . Th is is a
m e m o r a n d u m a n d I s e e o n p a g e 1 2 4 t h a t i t h a s b e e n d e p o s e d t o , th e r e

20

is a s ta m p a t t h e b o tt o m b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e . Fr o m
p a r a g r a p h 3 o f t h a t s ta t e m e n t o f o n t h a t m e m o r a n d u m 1 2 3 t h a t w o u ld –
t h is fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 o n w a r d s u n ti l p a r a g r a p h 7 .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , I ’ m t h e r e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h is w o u l d b e th e
r e a s o n a s to w h y y o u n e v e r – q u e s ti o n i n g w h y y o u n e v e r r e c e i v e d a

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
normal nonverbal.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : C a n y o u r e p e a t ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a j o r N t s h is i , l e t m e ju s t r e p h r a s e . I f

w e , l e t ’s ju s t g o to p a r a g r a p h 4 th a t w o u l d b e o n p a g e 1 2 4 . C h a ir, w i th
y o u r p e r m i s s i o n , m a y I r e a d t h is i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n r e t u r n e d

m y c a l l.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e ll ,

you

must

fi r s t

ju s t s a y

that

th is

is

a

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t a p p e a r s to h a v e b e e n w r i t t e n b y Mr N ts h i s i a n d w a s
a d d r e s s e d to C J O P S . D o y o u c o n fir m M r N ts h is i t h a t t h a t ’s t h e – th a t
m e m o r a n d u m w a s w r i tt e n b y y o u ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , I c o n fir m t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . It is d a t e d 3 1 M a y 2 0 1 3 a n d i t is a t p a g e 1 2 3 o f
E x h i b i t F F4 . T h e n y o u c a n r e a d t h e r e l e v a n t p a r t .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: That you want to read.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

P a r a g r a p h 4 o n p a g e 1 2 4 o f t h is

m e m o r a n d u m . I t s t a te s t h a t , L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n r e t u r n e d m y
20

c a l l . S h e b e l i e v e d I r e je c t e d th e r e q u e s t . I m e n ti o n e d t o h e r t h a t a s k e d
f o r a w r i t te n c o n fir m a t i o n fr o m D e r c o f o r l a n d in g c l e a r a n c e a t ( FAW K ) ,
t h a t I a s s u m e i n f r o n t w o u l d b e t h e A ir F o r c e s p a c e a n d W a te r k l o o f.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Is that correct, yes?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , t h a t is c o r r e c t .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I a s k e d L ie u te n a n t C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n ,

w h o s h o u ld b e r e c e i v e d b y t h e A ir F o r c e i n t e r m s o f V I P b e c a u s e o f m y
k n o w l e d g e o n ly H e a d o f S t a t e a n d d e p u ti e s . L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l
A n d e r s o n r e s p o n d e d t h a t i t d e p e n d s o n t h e v i s i t ty p e a l s o b e c a u s e
M i n is t e r s m a y a r r iv e a t t h e A ir F o r c e i f it ’s n o t t o o b u s y a n d t h e
a v a i la b ili t y o f p a r k i n g f o r th e fl ig h t I s h o u l d a ll o w t h e m . T h e n u m b e r
o n e ( P r e s i d e n t) k n o w s a b o u t t h e f li g h t .
Wa s t h is th e c o n t e n ts o f y o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , t h a t is tr u e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h e r e is – t h e r e i s a l s o a s e n te n c e t h a t’s q u i te i n
p o i n t a t p a g e 1 2 3 to w a r d s t h e e n d o f p a r a g r a p h t h r e e w h e r e y o u w r o t e ,
t h e A m b a s s a d o r t e l e p h o n e d a ir c o m m a n d p o s t t o in q u i r e a s t o p r o g r e s s
w i t h th e c le a r a n c e r e q u e s t f r o m I n d i a n H i g h C o m m i s s io n . I s p o k e t o h i m
a n d e x p l a i n e d t h e n a t u r e o f ( FAW K ) b e in g u s e d f o r t h e p o r t o f e n t r y a n d
I i n d ic a te d t o h i m t h a t ( FAW K) c a n o n l y a l lo w H e a d o f S t a t e , I th in k
t h a t ’s W a t e r k lo o f , H e a d o f S t a t e a n d th e i r d e p u t ie s . T h e A m b a s s a d o r
r e s p o n d e d t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e 4 t o 5 M in i s t e r s o n b o a r d . I r e q u e s te d a
n o t e v e r b a l fr o m h i m . T h e A m b a s s a d o r r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g t h e
c h a l le n g e w a s t h a t t h is c o u l d n o t b e p u t i n w r i t in g a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t

20

a u t h o r i z e d t h e l a n d i n g o f th a t f li g h t . I s h o u l d c a l l L i e u te n a n t C o lo n e l
A n d e r s o n t o c o n f ir m t h a t .
Is t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d b y A m b a s s a d o r K h o l o a n e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , t h a t is tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. Is y o u r e v i d e n c e – w e r e y o u s a y i t w a s a f t e r

y o u h a v e b e e n t o l d a ll o f t h e s e th i n g s t h a t y o u d e c i d e d to p r o c e s s t h e

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
request?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : A f te r a ll th e s e t a lk s ,
Yo u r W o r s h i p , t h a t is w h e n w e h a d to m a k e a d e c is i o n t h a t w e p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : W i t h th e r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a jo r N ts h is i , y o u h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t

you know the nonverbal not being the normal nonverbal that you would
r e c e i v e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
10

I N T E R P R E T E R : C a n y o u r e p e a t?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

He has spoken about the nonverbal

b e i n g it w a s n o t th e n o r m a l t h a t t h e y w o u l d r e c e i v e .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d a m I c o r r e c t in s a y i n g t h a t a

n o r m a l n o n v e r b a l w o u l d i n d ic a t e , id e n ti fy e i t h e r t h e H e a d o f S t a te , th e
d e p u ty o r w h a t e v e r m i n is tr y, t h e p a s s e n g e r s th e f li g h t w o u l d b e c a r in g .
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s , in n o n v e r b a l,

Yo u r W o r s h i p , w i ll h a v e q u i t e s o m e n u m b e r o f p a r t ic u l a r s , Yo u r
20

W o r s h i p , a c c o r d i n g t o th e r e q u e s t f o r t h e fl i g h t t h a t w i ll b e c o m i n g i n
a n d t h e n i t w i ll f u r t h e r e x p l a i n e x te n s iv e l y a b o u t th e p e o p le o r t h e c r e w
t h a t w i ll b e i n th e fl ig h t ; a ls o e x p l a in e x t e n s iv e ly a b o u t t h e ir p o s i ti o n s
a n d t h e ir r e s p e c t iv e d u t ie s th e y a r e d o i n g a n d a s t o w h e r e i t i s fr o m
a n d w h e r e i t i s g o i n g to la n d .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

And the normal note verbal would be

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
t h e p r e v i o u s e x a m p l e t h a t w e h a v e n o t e d o n p a g e 8 7 ; e x a m p le f r o m
Derco. That would be Exhibit FF8.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : P a g e ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : P a g e 8 7 , o f w h ic h f il e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u n e e d h i m t o g o b a c k t o it b e c a u s e h e d i d

c o n fir m i t ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

N o , C h a ir, n o t t o g o b a c k ; j u s t t o

e x p l a i n t h a t w h a t h e h a s j u s t s a i d t h a t w o u ld b e th e n o r m a l , h o w i n
n o r m a l n o t e v e r b a l w o u l d l o o k i n c o n te n ts .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I ’ m s a y i n g h e d i d s a y t h a t b e f o r e . D o y o u w a n t
him to repeat it?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : N o , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r w h e n y o u s h o w e d i t m y r e c o l l e c ti o n i s th a t
h e l o o k e d a t i t o r d i d h e n o t l o o k a t it a n d c o n fir m e d e x a c t ly t h a t w h a t
h e h a d r e c e iv e d d i d n o t , w a s n o t a n o t e v e r b a l a s th e y k n o w i t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I n d e e d s o , C h a ir. M a j o r N ts h i s i , s o i n

t h is i n s t a n c e , fr o m th e l o o k o f i t a n d w h a t y o u w o u l d n o r m a l ly k n o w th is
n o n v e r b a l t h a t ’s s e n t b y e m a i l t h is c o n f ir m a t io n e m a i l to g o a h e a d w a s
ir r e g u l a r ?
20

MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Look the one I

r e c e i v e d , Yo u r W o r s h i p , w a s n o t t h e n o r ma l o n e w h ic h h a d a ll th e
p a r t ic u l a r s , Yo u r W o r s h i p , w h ic h i n n o r m a l n o n v e r b a l w o u l d c a r r y, Yo u r
Worship.
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

M a jo r N t s h i s i , i f I c o u l d t a k e y o u to

E x h i b i t F F4 o n p a g e s 1 9 3 .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
INTERPRETER:

Page 9?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 193.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , I ’ m t h e r e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C a n y o u i d e n t i fy th a t d o c u m e n t?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : I t ’s a c o v e r p a g e f o r
t h e d e f e n c e i n te ll ig e n c e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a jo r N t s h i s i , a r e y o u o n th e c o r r e c t

p a g e ? 1 9 3 o f Ex h ib i t F F 4 .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) : P a r d o n , I w a s o n th e
10

wrong page.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a j o r N ts h i s i , c a n y o u i d e n t if y th a t

document?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

( t hr o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ) :

The document in

fr o n t o f m e is R S A 0 5 , w h ic h is a n e x t e r n a l c le a r a n c e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C a n y o u t a lk a b o u t w h e n w o u l d t h i s

d o c u m e n t b e is s u e d a n d c a n y o u t a l k t o th e c o n t e n t s o f th is d o c u m e n t ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

(through Interpreter):

This document

e x p l a i n s w h e r e is i t fr o m a n d t o w h ic h p e o p l e i s it g o in g t o a n d a s t o
w h o t h e a u t h o r o f it is a n d w h o th e p e r s o n t h a t is m a k i n g a r e q u e s t is
20

a n d th e r e a s o n f o r s u c h a r e q u e s t .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : O k a y. M a j o r N t s h is i s o , o n t h e t o p p a g e
o n t h e l e f t- h a n d s i d e i n q u e r i e s g o t o , it is w r i tt e n th e r e , Wa r r a n t
O ff ic e r T N ts h i s i . T h e r e q u e s t e r is t h e I n d i a n d e l e g a ti o n , t h e c o n t a c t
p e r s o n is C a p ta i n K h a t h i a n d t h e a d d r e s s t h e I n d i a E m b a s s y a n d a t th e
b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e w e h a v e a n a u t h o r i ty o ff- s i g n , L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l S J

Page 107 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
Va n Zy l .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is s o .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

And would it be correct that Colonel

Va n Zy l w o u l d h a v e to s i g n th e s e d o c u m e n t s fo r t h e c le a r a n c e to b e
valid?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is tr u e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d k n o w i n g t h e n o n e n o r m a l i ty o f t h e
n o t e v e r b a l th a t y o u h a d r e c e i v e d a n d y o u h a d q u e s t i o n e d i t a n d s o
f o r th , d i d y o u b r in g t h is t o L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l Va n Zy l ’s a t te n ti o n b e f o r e
10

h e a u t h o r iz e d t h is c l e a r a n c e ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I

( t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

As I h a v e a lr e a d y

e x p l a i n e d , w h e n i t c a m e t o t h e fi n a l it y th a t C o lo n e l Va n Zy l m u s t s i g n
y o u s h a ll h a v e a l r e a d y to ld h i m a b o u t t h e p r o b l e m s a n d t h e r e a s o n s
w h y y o u c a m e to s u c h a d e c i s i o n t h a t y o u h a v e t o c o n t in u e , Yo u r
Worship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d h a v e b r i e f e d h i m f u l ly a b o u t th e p r o c e s s u p
to that point. Is that what you mean?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

( t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Ye s , y o u t e l l h i m

a b o u t t h e o n s e t o f t h e r e q u e s t o r t h e b e g i n n i n g , Yo u r W o r s h i p , u n ti l t o
20

t h e f in a li ty o f i t w h e r e h e m u s t f i n a lly s i g n a n d g i v e a g o - a h e a d , Yo u r
Worship.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a j o r N ts h is i , c a n ju s t s h o r t i n j u s t a

s h o r t s e n t e n c e j u s t r e l a y t h e c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t y o u h a d w it h C o l o n e l
Va n Zy l ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) : E v e n th o u g h I c a n n o t

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r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t w o r d s s e e i n g th a t i t h a p p e n e d q u it e l o n g a g o .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e h e a n s w e r s . W h a t h e h a s s a id i s t h a t

t h e n o r m i s th a t b u t t h e ti m e h e w o u l d a s k Va n Zy l to s ig n h e w o u l d
h a v e b r i e fe d h i m fr o m b e g in n i n g , fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e p r o c e s s u p
t o t h e p o i n t . D o y o u w a n t h i m t o m e n ti o n t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

N o , C h a ir. T h is w a s j u s t y o u k n o w

s h o r tl y o n h o w d i d h e s t a te , te ll , r e l a y t o C o l o n e l Va n Zy l t h a t y o u k n o w
t h e n o n v e r b a l w a s ir r e g u la r a n d a l s o i n t e r m s o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n h e
h a d w i t h L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a n d A m b a s s a d o r K h o l o a n e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k m a y b e it w o u l d b e b e t te r i f y o u p u t a s p e c i fic
q u e s t io n o u t o f t h a t w h o l e p r o c e s s w h a t y o u w o u l d l ik e h i m t o d e a l w it h
if y o u w a n t t o a s k h i m w h e t h e r h e to l d Va n Z y l , M r Va n Zy l t h a t th e r e
w a s s o m e th i n g ir r e g u l a r a b o u t t h is . P u t t h e q u e s ti o n i f y o u w a n t t o , h i m
t o , i f y o u w a n t t o a s k h i m w h e t h e r h e t o ld Va n Zy l , Mr Va n Z y l t h a t
t h e r e w a s n o n o t e v e r b a l.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A s th e C h a ir p le a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n s t e a d t h e r e w a s j u s t a l e tt e r. J u s t d ir e c t th a t

o th e r w i s e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Indeed so.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w o u l d s t a r t a l l o v e r a g a in a n d th e n t e l l th e w h o l e
process. So he has told us to process and he has told us that he would
h a v e i n fo r m e d M r Va n Zy l o f th e p r o c e s s fr o m b e g i n n i n g t o t h e p o i n t .
S o h e w o u l d h a v e b r i e fe d h i m .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s , i n d e e d s o , C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M a jo r N ts h i s i , d i d y o u i n fo r m C o lo n e l Va n Zy l a b o u t th e n o t e v e r b a l n o t

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b e n o r m a l a n d i t c o m i n g t h r o u g h a s a n e m a i l i n s t e a d a n d n o t h a v in g t h e
c o r r e c t c o n te n ts o f a n o r m a l n o n v e r b a l ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) : I t w a s v e r y i m p o r t a n t
t h a t I t e l l h i m a b o u t t h a t a n d t h e r e a s o n b e i n g h e w a s s t il l n e w in th e
p o s i ti o n h e w a s h o ld in g a t t h a t t i m e , Yo u r W o r s h i p , a n d a s a n e w
p e r s o n , Yo u r W o r s h i p , h e w a s r e l y i n g o n u s , Yo u r W o r s h i p , t o g i v e h i m
t h e k n o w l e d g e , Yo u r W o r s h i p , a b o u t w h a t w e k n o w is n o r m a l ly
h a p p e n in g in t h e p r o c e s s , Yo u r W o r s h i p . A f t e r in f o r m i n g h i m t h a t, Yo u r
W o r s h i p , t h a t is w h e n h e c a m e t o th e d e c is io n th a t h e c a n s i g n , Yo u r
10

Worship.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a j o r N ts h is i , th e r e w a s a n o th e r

r e q u e s t th a t c a m e i n s a y fo r t h e m a i n A ir b u s t h a t l a n d e d . T h e r e w a s a
r e q u e s t f o r h e l ic o p t e r s t o l a n d a t t h e a ir b a s e . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

( t hr o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ) :

There were such

r e q u e s ts , Yo u r W o r s h ip , a n d s u c h r e q u e s ts , Yo u r W o r s h i p , w e r e ; t h a t
r e q u e s t , Yo u r W o r s h i p , w a s i n li n e w i th t h e r e q u e s ts o f th e A ir b u s , Yo u r
W o r s h i p , w h ic h w a s g o i n g t o l a n d a t Wa t e r k l o o f . A n d b e c a u s e th e
r e a s o n fo r th a t , Yo u r W o r s h i p , t h e a ir p l a n e th a t w a s g o i n g t o la n d a t
Wa t e r k l o o f , Yo u r W o r s h ip , w a s c a r r i e d 2 1 7 p e o p le o r c r e w, Yo u r
20

W o r s h i p . A n d b e c a u s e o f th a t , Yo u r W o r s h i p , t h e o th e r r e q u e s t f o r t h e
li g h t a ir c r a f ts , Yo u r W o r s h i p , w h e r e t h e li g h t a ir c r a f t w h i c h w e r e g o i n g
t o c a r r y p e o p le fr o m W a t e r k lo o f to w h e r e th e y w e r e g o in g t o , Yo u r
Worship.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir, t h a t r e q u e s t c a n b e f o u n d o n

p a g e 1 0 . It c a n b e f o u n d o n p a g e 1 0 6 a n d 1 0 7 o f E x h i b i t F F5 , is th a t

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t h e r e q u e s t M a jo r N ts h is i ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

A n d th e s u b s e q u e n t c l e a r a n c e is i n

E x h i b i t F F4 o n p a g e 1 9 4 , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : P a g e ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

194.

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A n d i n t e r m s o f t h e A ir b u s a n d th e

li g h t a ir c r a f t w a s t h e s a m e p r o c e s s e s fo ll o w e d , i n t e r m s o f t h e t w o
10

r e q u e s ts ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th a t i s tr u e .

L e t ’s g o b a c k to w h e n y o u t o o k th e l e t te r fr o m M r

M a ji la t o is it L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l v a n Zy l ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l v a n Z y l th e p e r s o n w h o w a s
s u p p o s e d to a p p r o v e th e a u t h o r i s a t io n – t h e c l e a r a n c e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u s u p p o s e d to m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o h i m
a s to w h e t h e r y o u t h o u g h t h e s h o u l d p r o v i d e t h e a u th o r is a t i o n o r n o t ?
20

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

According to my

e x p l a n a t io n a n d k n o w le d g e t h a t I h a v e , th e k n o w l e d g e Yo u r W o r s h i p o f
t h e r e q u e s t , w h e n y o u t e l l y o u r s u p e r v i s o r o r c o m m a n d e r Yo u r W o r s h ip
w h e r e i t s t a r t e d t o w h e r e t h a t is n o w g o i n g to b e h is t h in k i n g o r
d e c is i o n a s t o w h a t h e is g o i n g t o d o .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u w e r e n o t r e q u i r e d t o i n d ic a te w h e t h e r y o u

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t h o u g h t h e s h o u l d a p p r o v e i t o r n o t a p p r o v e , y o u ’r e s i m p ly s u p p o s e d to
b r i e f h i m f u l ly a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s a n d p l a c e ( i n d i s t i n c t) d o c u m e n t a t i o n
b e f o r e h i m a n d h e w o u l d h a v e to m a k e a d e c i s i o n h i ms e lf ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

T h a t is tr u e Yo u r

Worship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u w e r e , y o u r s e l f , n o t s a ti s fi e d t h a t e v e r y – t h a t i t
s h o u l d b e a p p r o v e d w e r e y o u s ti ll o b li g e d t o t a k e e v e r y t h in g t o h i m f o r
h i m t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n o r i f y o u w e r e n o t s a ti s f i e d t h a t e v e r y t h i n g w a s
in o r d e r y o u c o u l d h a v e n o t p r o c e s s e d t h i s w h o l e r e q u e s t u p t o h i m ?
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n y o u
a r e i n t h e a r my t h e r e is a d e p a r t m e n t w h e r e y o u r e p o r t t o , y o u c a n n o t
a s k o r th i n k w h a t is s u p p o s e d t o b e d o n e Yo u r W o r s h i p if a p e r s o n is
y o u r s e n i o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Did you say that you can’t tell your senior what he

should do?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : To ta lly y o u c a n n o t t e l l
your senior what to do.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:
20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, I w o u l d l ik e t o r e fe r

t o t h e S A N A F B o a r d f il e w h ic h is E x h i b i t F F 4 , s ta r t i n g a t p a g e 3 2 4 , j u s t
f o r c la r i ty p u r p o s e s th is is t h e t r a n s c r i p t o f th e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y i n t o
L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n t h a t w a s h e l d i n Pr e to r i a , t h e fr o n t p a g e
o f t h i s t r a n s c r i p t c a n b e f o u n d o n p a g e 2 8 4 … ( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y w a s i t 2 8 4 ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
c o v e r p a g e fo r t h e tr a n s c r i p t, t h e id e n ti fi c a ti o n o f th e d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay you want us to go to 324.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s 3 2 4 C h a ir p l e a s e .

CHAIRPERSON: We are there.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Major Ntshsi, are you there?

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I n – j u s t to d e t e r i n ju s t a r e p e t i ti o n

in e v i d e n c e I’ m j u s t g o i n g t o p ic k i t u p f r o m t h e f if t h l in e o n t h a t
d o c u m e n t w h e r e i t s t a r ts w i t h “ W O N ts h is i ” .
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : W h e r e i t s t a r ts w i th ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I t s t a r t s w i t h “ W O N ts h i s i ” , th e f ir s t

li n e o f p a g e 3 2 4 . C h a i r if I m a y r e a d t h a t in th e r e c o r d o r s h o u l d I ju s t
g iv e a s y n o p s is o f t h e c o n t e n t s o f …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h a t lo o k s li k e e v id e n c e th a t h e h a s a lr e a d y

g iv e n i s n ’ t i t?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a t is j u s t a s l ig h t in tr o d u c ti o n to t h e
c o r e o f w h a t w e ’r e t r y i n g t o g e t a t s o w e c a n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d o n ’ t w a n t u s t o w a s t e ti m e r e p e a ti n g e v id e n c e
t h a t h a s b e e n s a id .
20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s , if w e c o u ld ju s t p a g e t o 3 2 5 o f

that document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I f w e g o t o l i n e – i f w e g o t o l in e s 8 o f

that document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s p a g e 3 2 5 ?

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ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

3 2 5 l in e 8 .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r N ts h i s i s t a te s ,
“ I h a v e s p o k e t o M r K o lo a n e h e in d i c a t e d t o m e t h a t t h e
s e n s i t iv it y o f t h e f li g h t is n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e o n a n o t e o f
v e r b a l e b e c a u s e i t ’s a h i g h s e c u r i ty r i s k , t h e n w e s k i p a
li n e t h e r e o n li n e 1 2 , W a r r a n t O ffi c e r N ts h is i s t a t e s , w e n e e d
t o g o a h e a d w it h th a t c l e a r a n c e a l t h o u g h I w a s n o t h a p p y w i th
t h e r e s p o n s e th a t is w h y I e v e n – t h e s e c o n d t i m e I s p o k e t o
10

L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n , s h e a ls o c o n f ir m e d t h a t I m u s t
g o a h e a d b e c a u s e t h e Pr e s id e n t a u th o r is e d t h e f li g h t ” .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a jo r N ts h i s i d i d y o u s a y a t th a t B o a r d o f i n q u ir y t h a t
y o u h a d s p o k e n t o M r K o l o a n e a n d h e h a d i n d ic a t e d th a t t h e s e n s i ti v i ty
o f t h e fl i g h t w a s n o t s u p p o s e d to b e o n t h e n o t e v e r b a l e b e c a u s e i t w a s
a h ig h s e c u r it y r i s k , d id y o u s a y t h a t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o I n e v e r s a i d t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u d id n o t s a y a t t h e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y t h a t M r

K o lo a n e – y o u h a d s p o k e n t o M r K o lo a n e a n d t h a t h e h a d i n d ic a te d to
y o u th a t th e s e n s it iv it y o f t h e f li g h t w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e o n t h e n o t e
20

v e r b a l e a n d th a t th is w a s b e c a u s e it w a s a h i g h s e c u r i ty r is k , y o u d i d
n o t s a y t h a t a t t h e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

On that same page on 325, that would

b e li n e 2 8 o n th a t p a g e , a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll m a y b e l e t ’s d o t h e o t h e r o n e t h a t y o u h a d

Page 114 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
m e n ti o n e d . O n t h a t p a g e M a jo r N ts h i s i it ’s a l s o r e fl e c t e d t h a t y o u t o l d
t h a t B o a r d o f i n q u ir y t h a t , a n d I r e a d ,
“ W e n e e d to g o a h e a d w i t h t h a t c le a r a n c e a l t h o u g h I w a s n o t
h a p p y w i t h th a t r e s p o n s e t h a t i s w h y I e v e n , t h e s e c o n d ti m e ,
s p o k e t o L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n , s h e a ls o c o n fi r m e d th a t
I m u s t g o a h e a d b e c a u s e t h e P r e s id e n t a u t h o r is e d t h a t f li g h t ” ,
I’ m s o r r y d i d th e i n t e r p r e t e r i n t e r p r e t ?
INTERPRETER: I’m sorry I didn’t get that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I’ m g o i n g t o r e p e a t , j a l e t h i m r e a d a s I r e p e a t .
10

D i d y o u s a y t h i s a t th e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y M a jo r N ts h i s i a s r e fl e c t e d a t
p a g e 3 2 5 s o m e w h e r e i n th e m id d le o f t h e p a g e ,
“ W e n e e d to g o a h e a d w i t h t h a t c le a r a n c e a l t h o u g h I w a s n o t
h a p p y w i t h th a t r e s p o n s e t h a t i s w h y I e v e n , t h e s e c o n d ti m e ,
s p o k e t o L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n , s h e a ls o c o n fi r m e d th a t
I m u s t g o a h e a d b e c a u s e t h e P r e s id e n t a u t h o r is e d t h a t f li g h t ” .
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

W h a t is w r i t te n

h e r e , I d o n ’t a g r e e w i th Yo u r W o r s h i p b e c a u s e i t is a g a in s t w h a t I ’v e
s a i d i n my s t a te m e n t a n d i t is a ls o a g a i n s t th e r e p o r t w h ic h is o n t h e
c lu s te r r e p o r t Yo u r W o r s h ip .
20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a j o r N t s h i s i a r e y o u s ta t in g t h a t y o u

n e v e r u t t e r e d th e s e w o r d s ir r e s p e c ti v e o f i t b e i n g c o n tr a r y t o t h e
s t a te m e n t a n d th e c lu s te r r e p o r t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :
w r i t t e n h e r e , I a m a g a in s t Yo u r W o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 115 of 130

The words that are

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

S o M a jo r N ts h is i a r e y o u s t a ti n g t h a t

t h e tr a n s c r ip t io n d o n e h e r e i s i n c o r r e c t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Ye s w h a t e v e r is

w r i t t e n h e r e I d i s a g r e e w it h .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

O n t h a t s a m e p a g e o n 3 2 5 a t th e

b o t t o m o f t h a t p a g e , w o u ld s t a r t a t li n e 2 8 w h e r e i t ’s s t a te d ,
“ f o r t h a t ti m e i t w a s a m a z e d i f h e ( s h e ) a s k e d m e w h y y o u
r e j e c t e d w h a t y o u c a ll t h e r e q u e s t fr o m t h e C h ie f , s o b u t
b e c a u s e s h e s a y s to m e , s h e i n d ic a te d t h a t i t ’s t h e P r e s id e n t
10

a u t h o r i s a t io n a n d th a t is w h y w e g o a h e a d w i t h i t ” .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n w h a t p a g e w e r e y o u r e a d in g j u s t n o w ?
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

C h a ir t h a t is o n l in e 2 8 o n p a g e 3 2 5 ,

that same page that we were on.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, w e l l le t m e a s k t h is , M a j o r N ts h is i I th o u g h t

y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r li e r o n w a s t o t h e e ffe c t t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e
h a d s a id , a n d I m a y b e mi s ta k e n , w h e n y o u w e r e i n s is ti n g o n th e n o t e
v e r b a l e , h a d s a i d t h a t t h is w a s a u n i q u e c a s e a n d t h a t w h e n y o u a s k e d
f o r w r i t t e n c o n f ir m a ti o n h e s a id w h a t y o u a s k e d fo r c o u l d n o t b e p u t in
w r i t in g , w a s t h a t s o m e t h in g e ls e ?
20

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Chairperson

as

I’ v e a lr e a d y s t a t e d Yo u r W o r s h i p t h e w o r d i n g Yo u r W o r s h i p o n t h i s
tr a n s c r ip t s a r e n o t m y w o r d i n g s Yo u r W o r s h i p . I t l o o k s li k e a s i f t h e r e i s
s o m e o n e w h o p r in t e d th is w o r d in g Yo u r W o r s h i p a s i f t h e y a r e c o m i n g
fr o m m e , w h ic h I d is a g r e e w i th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o t h o s e w o r d s o r t h o s e p a r ts o f t h a t p a g e to w h ic h

Page 116 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
y o u a r e r e f e r r e d , d o th e y m a k e p o in ts t h a t a r e t r u e b u t is t h e w o r d i n g –
it ’s th e w o r d s t h a t a r e u s e d t h a t y o u d o n ’ t a g r e e w i th b u t y o u a g r e e
w i t h th e p o in t s b u t y o u m a y h a v e u s e d d i ff e r e n t w o r d s to m a k e t h e
same point?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

The

w o r d in g

a p p e a r i n g h e r e Yo u r W o r s h i p I , t h e y d o n ’ t m e a n w h a t I s a id t o t h e m a s I
w a s t a lk i n g t o t h e m t e le p h o n ic a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u , c o n ti n u e .

ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:
10

C h a ir w e a r e g o in g t o m o v e o n t o

E x h i b i t F F8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w i ll n e e d to b e i n v e s ti g a te d l a t e r i s t h e i s s u e o f
t h a t t r a n s c r i p t s o t h a t – f o r la t e r o n , m a y b e o n a n o t h e r d a y w h e n t h e r e
c a n b e c la r i ty a s to t h e a c c u r a c y o f th e tr a n s c r i p t.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

W e ’ v e m a d e a n o te o f i t , t h a n k y o u

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th a t i n t h e e n d w e k n o w w h e t h e r – w h a t t h e

p o s i ti o n i s , ja o k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

As I s a i d w e ’ ll b e

m o v i n g t o E x h i b it F F 8 , C h a ir I ’ m n o t p a r tic u l a r ly s u r e , I a s s u m e t h a t it ’s
20

b e e n d o n e , t h e r e is a f o ld e r in F F 8 w i t h a d iv i d e r w i th t h e n u m b e r 4 o n
it a n d i t s h o u l d b e t h e s a m e a s w e ll w i t h M a jo r N ts h is i , t h a t w il l b e o n
p a g in a t e d p a g e 1 6 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 6 1 , y e s , l e t ’s s e e i f h e h a s g o t i t , I th i n k h e h a s g o t
it , y e s .
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

N o w t h is is a b o o k w r i t t e n b y a u t h o r

Page 117 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
P i e t e r - L o u is M y b u r g h , “ T h e R e p u b l ic o f G u p t a s ” , a s to r y o f s t a t e
c a p tu r e w h e r e i n M a j o r N ts h is i h a s b e e n m e n t io n e d in t h is b o o k a n d w e
h a v e n o t e d a n d h ig h l i g h t e d c e r t a i n e x tr a c t s th a t , i f th e C h a ir a ll o w s , t o
r e a d in t h a t r e c o r d a n d h a v e M a j o r N ts h is i c o m m e n t o n th o s e
a l le g a ti o n s b y M r M y b u r g h .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h i s w a s d o n e w i t h t h e e a r li e r w i t n e s s b u t w h a t

is t h e p o i n t , is t h e r e s o m e th i n g w r i t te n t h e r e b y t h is a u th o r t h a t
c o n c e r n s h i m t h a t h e w a n t s t o r e fu t e ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

Ye s w e l l b a s ic a l ly C h a ir, th is b o o k

h i g h l ig h ts t h a t M a j o r N ts h is i m i g h t h a v e b e n e fi t e d f r o m t h e l a n d in g o f
t h is a i r c r a ft b y r e c e i v i n g a p r o m o ti o n in a s e n s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Just ask him that question.

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a j o r N ts h is i , I’ m n o t p a r t ic u l a r ly

c e r t a i n t h a t y o u ’v e r e a d t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h is b o o k b u t M r M y b u r g h , i n
h is b o o k , r e l a y s t h a t y o u b e n e fi t e d i n , fr o m b e in g W a r r a n t O ff ic e r t o a
M a jo r w i t h i n – it w a s a h u g e a c c e l e r a ti o n w i t h o u t g o i n g th r o u g h t h e
p r o p e r p r o c e s s e s a n d y o u r c o ll e a g u e s w e r e s u r p r is e d t h a t y o u h a d
g o t t e n a p r o m o t i o n o u t o f n o w h e r e , w h a t d o y o u h a v e t o s a y to t h i s ?
INTERPRETER:
20

From which rank to which rank?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Fr o m

Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r t o w h e r e h e

w a s t o t h e p o s i t io n o f t o d a y w h ic h is M a j o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n j u s t r e s p o n d t o w h a t t h e y s a y is a l le g e d i n

t h e b o o k a b o u t y o u , I’ m s o r r y M r I n t e r p r e te r I s e e I t o o k o v e r, o k a y
a lr i g h t , y e s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Page 118 of 130

The

a u t h o r,

Yo u r

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
W o r s h i p o f t h is b o o k is n o t t e ll in g t h e tr u t h th a t is w h y I w a s a s k in g th e
C h a ir p e r s o n i f , c a n I e x p l a i n m y f e e l in g s a b o u t th is Yo u r W o r s h i p .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h a t a u t h o r is n o t g iv i n g e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e

C o m m i s s i o n a s fa r a s I k n o w a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w if h e h a s s u b s t a n ti a te d
t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir w e h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th M r

M y b u r g h y e s t e r d a y la t e a ft e r n o o n a b o u t p r e s e n t in g t h i s b o o k a n d
p e r h a p s a ls o h a n d i n g i t u p a s a ls o a s a n E x h i b i t , h e w a s m o r e t h a n
happy in doing that…(intervention).
10

CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t i s h e c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e to s u b s ta n ti a t e

t h e a l le g a ti o n s ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

No

he

is

not

c o m in g

to

give

e v i d e n c e b u t h e w a s m o r e t h a n h a p p y t o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a i f h e is n o t g o i n g t o c o m e a n d s u b s ta n ti a t e t h e

a l le g a ti o n s I th i n k i t ’s e n o u g h i f t h e w it n e s s r e f u te s t h a t a l le g a t i o n a n d
I see the witness hasn’t been given a chance to look at the book so if
a t a l a te r s t a g e t h e y w i t n e s s h a s l o o k e d a t t h e b o o k a n d t h e r e a p p e a r s
t h a t t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g m o r e , t h e n w e c a n lo o k a t t h a t b u t I th in k a t t h i s
s t a g e l e t ’s tr y a n d f i n is h w i t h t h i s w it n e s s . I th i n k w h a t w a s i m p o r t a n t
20

w i t h th is w i t n e s s w a s r e a l ly h e ’s r o l e w i t h r e g a r d t o th e c l e a r a n c e a n d
m a y b e o n e o r t w o t h in g s , a l o t o f th in g s a r e n o t i n d is p u t e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:
M a jo r N ts h is i , w h e r e h e is

I n d e e d s o C h a ir. J u s t fo r p u r p o s e s o f

m e n ti o n e d i n t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s i s o n p a g e

1 4 8 o f th e b o o k a n d 1 5 0 a n d 1 5 1 , I’ m ju s t t a lk in g a b o u t th e c o n t e x t n o t
t h e p a g i n a te d b u n d le .

S o I’ m t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e b o o k a c tu a l p a g e

Page 119 of 130

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
n u m b e r n o t t h e b u n d le M a j o r N t s h is i s o y o u c a n r e f e r t o th e b o o k .
INTERPRETER: Page what?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Page 148, 150 and 151.

Apologies

C h a ir, ju s t a c o r r e c ti o n M r My b u r g h h a d a c t u a ll y a g r e e d to u s r e f e r r i n g
t o t h e b o o k a n d n o t u s h a n d i n g th e m u p a s E x h i b i ts , b e th a t a s i t m a y
d u e t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h e w i t n e s s h a s n o t r e a d th e b o o k in a n y e v e n t , h e
c a n n o t r e fu t e i t s u b s ta n ti a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s l e t’s g e t o n , a r e th e r e a n y o t h e r q u e s t i o n s a b o u t

t h e r e a l i s s u e s t h a t t h is w i tn e s s is h e r e a b o u t ?
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

N o C h a ir, w e h a v e c o v e r e d th e i s s u e

o f t h e r e q u e s t , t h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t t h e w i t n e s s h a s r e l a y e d a n d fr o m u s
t h e r e a r e n ’ t a n y fu r th e r e v i d e n c e t o b e l e d f o r M a j o r N ts h is i .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a j o r N ts h is i a s y o u s i t t h e r e , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h e

la n d i n g o f th is a ir c r a f t a t W a te r k l o o f s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a u th o r is e d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a p p e a r t o h a v e o p p o s e d t h e a u t h o r is a ti o n o f t h e
la n d i n g o f th is a ir c r a f t u p t o a c e r t a i n p o in t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A m I c o r r e c t to s a y t h a t fr o m a c e r ta i n p o i n t y o u

a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n p r e p a r e d t o g o a l o n g w i t h t h e a u t h o r is a ti o n ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t .

D o y o u w a n t t o c o n fi r m t o m e a g a i n w h y i t is t h a t

y o u c h a n g e d y o u r m i n d a b o u t – a n d d e c i d e d n o l o n g e r t o o p p o s e th e
a u t h o r i s a t io n ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Page 120 of 130

The reason for that

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
Yo u r W o r s h i p is t h e e m a il I g o t fr o m D I R C O w h ic h w a s w r i tt e n b y Mr
M a t jil a – w h i c h w a s s e n t t o m e b y Mr K o lo a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d id d i s c u s s th a t I j u s t w a n t e d c o n fi r m a ti o n . S o i t
w a s t h a t e m a il f r o m M r M a t ji la t h a t m a d e y o u c h a n g e y o u r m i n d a n d
w h a t e ls e ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

O n ly th e e m a i l Yo u r

Worship.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e th e r e a n y c o n v e r s a ti o n s y o u h a d w i t h a n y b o d y

t h a t a ls o p e r s u a d e d y o u o r i t w a s o n ly t h a t e m a i l?
10

MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]:

T h e t a lk s w e r e o n ly

b e t w e e n m e a n d C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n , M r K o lo a n e a n d t h e n t h a t w a s n o w
the email.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h a t I a m a s k in g is w h e th e r y o u a r e s a y i n g it
is o n l y w h a t w a s w r i t t e n i n t h a t e m a il t h a t p e r s u a d e d y o u t o c h a n g e
your mind or are saying it was what was in the email plus the
c o n v e r s a ti o n s th a t y o u h a d w i t h o t h e r p e o p le ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I t w a s o n ly th e e m a il
Yo u r W o r s h i p n o o n e e ls e i n fl u e n c e d m e to c h a n g e m y m i n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d e a r l i e r o n i f I u n d e r s t o o d e v i d e n c e c o r r e c tl y
20

t h a t i f y o u w e r e n o t s a tis f ie d th a t th e r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t a p a r t ic u l a r
a ir c r a f t s h o u l d b e a u t h o r is e d t o l a n d a f t e r lo o k in g a t w h a t e v e r D IR C O
s e n t t o y o u , y o u w o u ld b e e n t it l e d t o – y o u w o u l d b e e n ti tl e d t o o r n o t
t o p r o c e s s th e r e q u e s t .

Wa s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e

correct?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h y d id y o u n o t r e f u s e to p r o c e s s t h i s r e q u e s t

b e c a u s e 1 . Yo u h a v e t o l d u s t h a t t h is l e t t e r o r e m a il fr o m M r M a tj il a
w a s n o t a n o t e v e r b a l a n d 2 . I t d i d n o t h a v e it s c o n te n ts w e r e – d i d n o t
c o v e r s o m e m a t t e r s th a t w o u l d b e c o v e r e d i n a n o t e v e r b a l .

Why did

you process it nevertheless?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] : T h e r e a s o n f o r t h a t is
t h a t I h a d a lr e a d y h a v e h a d s o m e t a lk s w i t h M r K o lo a n e a n d h e a lr e a d y
w r i t t e n t o m e Yo u r W o r s h i p – I m e a n C h a ir p e r s o n th a t I m u s t g o o n w i t h
p r o c e s s in g th e r e q u e s t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w e r e y o u p e r m i t te d – d i d y o u h a v e p o w e r t o

p r o c e s s th e r e q u e s t ju s t b e c a u s e M r K o l o a n e s a i d p r o c e s s i t e v e n i f
y o u w e r e n o t s a tis f ie d t h a t i t m e t th e r e q u i r e m e n ts ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

I did not have those

p o w e r s Yo u r W o r s h i p t h a t is th e r e a s o n w h y w h e n I fi n i s h e d p r o c e s s i n g
t h e r e q u e s t t h a t I t o o k it t o C o l o n e l Va n Zy l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u s a y in g y o u d i d n o t h a v e th e p o w e r t o r e f u s e
o r a r e y o u s a y in g y o u d i d n o t h a v e th e p o w e r t o a u t h o r is e o r t o p r o c e s s
t h e r e q u e s t in t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]:
20

C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u

w e r e o n t h e p o s i ti o n I w a s a t a t t h a t p o in t in t i m e a n d a f t e r y o u s h a l l
have spoken to someone senior than you by giving the clearance
n u m b e r t o th e r e q u e s t s o f t h a t fl i g h t .

In o th e r w o r d s I s a y a s p e c i fi c

fl ig h t w i th s u c h a n d s u c h a n u m b e r h a s g o t t h e r ig h t o r p e r m i s s i o n t o
g e t in t o S o u th A fr ic a . By g iv i n g i t a n u m b e r Yo u r W o r s h i p I d o n o t s a y
m y s e l f p e r s e th a t i t i s a ll o w e d t o e n t e r Yo u r W o r s h i p .

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
w h e n i t c o m e t o t h a t y o u h a v e t o ta k e i t t o t h e p e r s o n w h o is s e n i o r
than you.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t w h a t e v e r y o u t h o u g h t o f t h e

r e q u e s t a n d w h a t e v e r y o u t h o u g h t o f t h e e m a il fr o m M r M a t ji la y o u w e r e
o b li g e d t o ta k e t h e r e q u e s t t o C o l o n e l Va n Zy l ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

T h a t is tr u e Yo u r

W o r s h i p t h a t is w h y w h e n y o u f in a lis e t h e r e q u e s t y o u m u s t ta k e i t t o
t h e p e r s o n t h a t is i n c h a r g e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I t i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d t h is p a r t

b e c a u s e i t r e l a t e s t o th e l a s t s t a g e s b e fo r e th e a u t h o r is a ti o n .

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t y o u s a id e a r li e r o n w a s t h a t i f y o u w e r e n o t
s a ti s f i e d th a t t h i s r e q u e s t w a s i n o r d e r y o u w e r e n o t o b l i g e d t o p r o c e s s
it f o r w a r d . D i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ly i n th a t r e g a r d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s s o . T h a t
is w h y it e v e n t u a ll y c a m e t o t h e t a lk s b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d M r K o l o a n e .
T h e r e a s o n f o r th a t I w a s n o t s a t is fi e d fr o m t h e o n s e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m t r y in g to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t m a d e y o u c h a n g e
y o u r m in d a n d e a r li e r o n w e ta lk e d a b o u t t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e le t t e r – o f
t h e e m a i l fr o m M r M a t ji la . A n d I e v e n a s k e d y o u w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a ls o
20

in fl u e n c e d b y c o n v e r s a t io n s y o u m a y h a v e h a d w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e o t h e r
t h a n t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e e m a il a n d y o u s a i d y o u w e r e i n fl u e n c e d a s I
u n d e r s t o o d y o u o n ly b y th e c o n t e n ts o f th e e m a il . D i d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u
c o r r e c t ly s o fa r ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. S o t h e n I c o m e b a c k t o th e q u e s t io n w h y

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
d i d y o u n o t s a y I a m n o t p r o c e s s i n g t h is r e q u e s t fo r w a r d b e c a u s e I a m
n o t s a ti s fi e d t h a t it is i n o r d e r ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

I could not have

r e fu s e d C h a ir p e r s o n if t h e r e w a s a lr e a d y a n e m a il t h a t I m u s t c o n ti n u e
w i t h p r o c e s s i n g o f th e r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n c e y o u r e c e i v e d th e e m a il fr o m M r M a tj il a a r e y o u
s a y in g i t w a s n o t o p e n t o y o u t o s a t is fy y o u r s e l f w h e t h e r t h e r e q u e s t
w a s i n o r d e r a n d a ll y o u h a d t o d o i s ta k e it f o r w a r d e v e n i f y o u d i d n o t
think it was in order?
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] : C h a ir p e r s o n a s I h a v e
a lr e a d y s t a te d if y o u a r e in t h a t p o s i ti o n a n d t h e r e w a s a ls o a p e r s o n
s e n i o r th a n y o u w h o in f o r m s y o u t o c o n t in u e w i t h th e p r o c e s s in g o f t h a t
fl ig h t p e r m is s io n t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g I c o u l d d o .

I did not have the

p o w e r s o f r e f u s in g t o d o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s th e p e r s o n w h o w a s s e n i o r t o y o u w h o h a d
s a i d y o u m u s t g o a h e a d w it h th e r e q u e s t a n d p r o c e s s i t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

If I say a senior

p e r s o n Yo u r W o r s h ip I d o n o t m e a n s o m e o n e w h o w a s th e a r m y i ts e lf
Yo u r W o r s h ip it is s o m e o n e w e w e r e w o r k in g h a n d in h a n d w i th Yo u r
20

W o r s h i p w h o w a s fr o m D IR C O Yo u r W o r s h i p w h o is M r K o l o a n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t th e p e r s o n th a t y o u m a y

h a v e b e e n o b l i g e d t o o b e y i f h e g a v e y o u a n y i n s tr u c t i o n s a l o n g t h o s e
li n e w o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e b o d y w i t h i n t h e S A N D F o r w i t h i n – w h o w a s
y o u r s e n i o r a t w o r k n o t s o m e b o d y fr o m a n o th e r d e p a r t m e n t.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

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Th a t i s th e tr u th

03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C h a ir p e r s o n .

Ye s S i r s e e i n g th a t w e w e r e w o r k i n g h a n d in h a n d w i th

D IR C O C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s in t h e l o w e s t r a n k i n s u c h a w a y t h a t I w a s
n o t g o in g t o b e c a p a b l e t o fi g h t a g a i n s t th e o r d e r s t h a t a r e c o m i n g fr o m
p e o p l e fr o m th e h i g h e r r a n k s Yo u r W o r s h ip .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e y o u n o t s u p p o s e d i n t h a t s i tu a ti o n t o t a k e t h e

r e q u e s t r a th e r t o s o m e b o d y h i g h e r a n d s a y h e r e is th is r e q u e s t I th in k
it i s n o t in o r d e r b u t th e p e o p l e a t D I R C O s a y w e m u s t p r o c e s s i t , w h a t
do you say?

I do not agree, what do you say?

Is t h a t n o t w h a t y o u

w e r e s u p p o s e d to d o i n t h a t s i t u a t io n ?
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

That is why

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I e x p l a i n e d t h a t a f t e r I c a m e a c r o s s t h e p a r ti c u la r s
t h a t w e r e i n t h e e m a il t h a t is w h e n I w e n t to C o l o n e l Va n Zy l a n d I
e x p l a i n e d t o C o l o n e l Va n Z y l e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d o r t h e w h o l e
p r o c e s s u n t il w h e r e w e w e r e w it h t h e r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Well part of what you say suggest to me that what you
a r e s a y in g is th a t y o u w e r e n o t p e r s u a d e d th a t t h i s r e q u e s t w a s i n
o r d e r b u t b e c a u s e y o u w e r e b e i n g t o l d o r i n s tr u c t e d b y s o m e b o d y
s e n i o r fr o m s e n i o r to y o u b u t f r o m D I R C O y o u w e r e b o u n d to t a k e i t t o
s o m e b o d y s e n i o r t o y o u a t S A N D F a n d y e t e a r l ie r o n I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d
20

y o u w e r e o p p o s e d to t h is r e q u e s t e a r l ie r b u t la t e r o n y o u w e r e
p e r s u a d e d t h a t it s h o u l d b e – i t s h o u l d g o a h e a d .
p o s i ti o n ?

Is – w h ic h is th e

Is i t th a t y o u n e v e r c h a n g e d y o u r m i n d t h a t i t w a s n o t i n

o r d e r t h r o u g h o u t y o u th o u g h t it w a s n o t i n o r d e r b u t i t w a s i t w a s f o r
Va n Z y l t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n o r is t h e p o s i t i o n th a t a l t h o u g h in i ti a l ly y o u
t h o u g h t i t w a s n o t i n o r d e r a f t e r s o m e t i m e y o u t h o u g h t i t w a s in o r d e r

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a n d y o u t o o k i t t o C o l o n e l Va n Z y l . W h ic h o n e i s t h e r e a l p o s i ti o n ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g

C h a ir p e r s o n I h a d s o m e s u s p ic i o n s I w a s n o t s a t is fi e d w i th t h e r e q u e s t.
T h a t is w h y I e x p la in e d w h a t w a s t h e r e a s o n f o r u s t o a t la s t c o n t in u e
w i t h t h i s r e q u e s t. T h e p e o p le t h a t I h a v e a lr e a d y e x p la i n e d t h a t I h a v e
s p o k e n t o a s I h a v e a lr e a d y m e n t io n e d t h e m a i n r e a s o n a s I h a v e
a lr e a d y s t a t e d I w a s n e v e r f o r c e d b y a n y o n e .

T h e d o c u m e n t th a t I

r e c e i v e d w h ic h w a s a n e m a i l w h ic h s a i d c o n t in u e w a s th e m a i n r e a s o n
w h y I c o n ti n u e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

So am I to understand – am I to understand your

e v i d e n c e t o m e a n th a t n o b o d y p u t a n y u n d u e p r e s s u r e o n y o u to
p r o c e s s t h e r e q u e s t u p t o C o lo n e l Va n Zy l ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

A s I h a v e a lr e a d y

s t a te d f r o m t h e p e o p l e I s p o k e to C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a n d Mr K o l o a n e –
u n t il to t h e p o i n t w h e r e w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e r e q u e s t Yo u r W o r s h ip
a n d a c c o r d i n g to w h a t w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g w i t h t h e m Yo u r W o r s h i p
t h o s e t a lk s Yo u r W o r s h i p a r e i n t h e c lu s t e r r e p o r t a n d t h e n t h e e m a i l.
T h a t i s w h y i t t h e n c a m e t h a t a ft e r th e w h o l e r e p o r t w a s c o m p i le d t h a t
it m u s t a l s o l a n d to C o l o n e l Va n Zy l .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o a t t h e t i m e t h a t t h e a u t h o r i s a t io n w a s g r a n t e d

w o u ld it b e c o r r e c t t o s a y a t t h a t s t a g e y o u w e r e i n s u p p o r t o f t h e
a u t h o r i s a t io n b e in g g r a n t e d o r w o u ld t h a t b e i n c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t is – C h a ir p e r s o n
a s I h a v e a lr e a d y s t a te d t h a t a ft e r th e r e p o r t h a s r e a c h e d C o l o n e l Va n
Zy l I w a s n o t g o i n g t o h a v e a n y p o w e r s to d is a g r e e w it h h i m h o w t o g o

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
a b o u t s i g n i n g i t Yo u r W o r s h ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o c o n c lu d e fr o m my s i d e b u t y o u d i d s a y th a t a s
y o u s it t h e r e y o u r v i e w is t h a t t h e a u t h o r i s a ti o n s h o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n
granted?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : A s I a m s e a te d h e r e
Yo u r W o r s h i p t h e f li g h t w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o l a n d a t W a te r k l o o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d is th a t b e c a u s e i t d i d n o t – i t d i d n o t h a v e a h e a d
o f s ta t e o r d e p u ty h e a d o f s t a t e a s o n e o r s o m e o f t h e p a s s e n g e r s ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e r e i s n o th in g l e ft w i th e v i d e n c e fr o m
o u r s i d e f o r M a jo r N ts h i s i .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M a jo r N ts h is i is t h e r e

a n y th in g t h a t w e m a y h a v e l e f t o u t t h a t is i m p o r t a n t th a t y o u w a n t e d to
say?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

A t t h is m o m e n t n o

C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming to give evidence. If
y o u s o m e b o d y a p p l ie s fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e y o u a n d th e y a r e
g r a n t e d t h a t le a v e w e w ill a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k .
MAJOR

THABO

NTSHISI

[ t hr o u g h

i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Th a n k

you

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e s o m e c o m m u n i c a ti o n b e tw e e n c o u n s e l f o r

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
A m b a s s a d o r K o le a n e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w i f th e r e i s a n y th in g I n e e d t o k n o w ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I a m n o t p a r t ic u l a r ly s u r e w h a t t h e

le g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s o f A m b a s s a d o r K o l e a n e w a n t s t o p u t o n r e c o r d
but…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja maybe …
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : B u t A d v o c a te . .
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe he could come forward. Ja.
10

C O U N S E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
COUNSEL:

I w il l n o t d e t a i n t h e c o m m is s i o n f o r v e r y lo n g .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
COUNSEL:

W e j u s t w a n t e d t o p l a c e o u r p o s i ti o n o n r e c o r d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
COUNSEL:

W e d i d n o t r e c e iv e a R u l e 3 .3 N o t ic e i n r e s p e c t o f t h is

witness.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
COUNSEL:
20

S o w e o b v io u s ly r e s e r v e o u r r i g h ts w e w il l c o n s i d e r in

d u e c o u r s e w h e th e r w e w a n t t o e x e r c i s e t h o s e r i g h t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o t h a t is fi n e .
COUNSEL:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: That is fine thank you. Thank you very much you are
e x c u s e d M a j o r N ts h is i . A n d th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r In t e r p r e t e r.
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . M a y I a ls o …

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y o u a r e e x c u s e d . Th a n k y o u .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I h a v e n o t e d t h e ti m e
it b e i n g t w e n ty p a s t f o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: However we do have a second witness.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Mr W il li a m M a tj il a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : H e h a s a c o n f ir m a t o r y a ff i d a v i t w h i c h is
10

q u i te s h o r t b u t h o w e v e r a c o n f ir m a to r y a ffi d a v i t t o th e r e p o r t b u t
h o w e v e r t h e r e a r e a n n e x u r e s th a t h e w o u l d w is h t o ta lk t o .

I do not

b e li e v e t h a t h i s e v i d e n c e w il l b e lo n g . I e s ti m a t e n o m o r e t h a n th ir ty
m i n u t e s a n d t h a t w o u ld b e t o my b e s t a n e x a g g e r a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u m a y b e li k e m e I a m v e r y p o o r w i t h r e g a r d to
e s ti m a t i n g h o w l o n g a n y t h i n g is g o i n g t o ta k e .

So well maybe we

s h o u l d – I s h o u l d li s te n t o h is e v id e n c e t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . H o w m a n y
w i t n e s s e s h a v e y o u g o t fo r t o m o r r o w ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir w e h a v e tw o m o r e w i t n e s s e s fo r
t o m o r r o w th a t w o u ld b e L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M s i m a n g a n d G e n e r a l
20

Mgwebi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o Mr M a t ji la w o u l d b e a t h ir d w it n e s s ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s Mr M a tj il a w o u ld b e a t h ir d w i tn e s s .
I assume.
CHAIRPERSON:

How long would the others be more or less,

u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e c o n f i d e n c e i n y o u r o w n e s t i m a ti o n ?

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03 JULY 2019 – DAY 126
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I have been told by Ms Norman SC

p r o b a b ly a n h o u r e a c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I t h i n k l e t ’s s ta r t w i t h Mr M a t ji la t o m o r r o w, is h e
a v a i la b le t o m o r r o w ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Let me just relay this.

He is indeed

r e a d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , le t m e h e a r h i s e v i d e n c e t o m o r r o w a t t e n .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A s t h e C h a ir p le a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

W e w i ll a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y a n d t o m o r r o w w e

s t a r t a t t e n . W e a d jo u r n .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 4 J U LY 2 0 1 9

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