C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

03 JUNE 2019

D AY 1 0 4

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
PROCEEDINGS HELD ON 3 JUNE 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n i n g M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s w e a r e r e a d y t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you Mr Chairperson

b e f o r e t h e w it n e s s is s w o r n i n I ju s t w a n t t o p la c e o n r e c o r d t h a t b e f o r e
10

y o u y o u r w il l h a v e t h r e e d o c u m e n t s .

T h e r e w i ll b e tw o th a t a r e i n a

p r e s e n t a ti o n f il e a n d t h a t w i ll b e Ex h ib i ts C C 1 [ a ] a n d [ b ] a n d E x h i b i t
C C 1 [c ] . A n d t h e o n e i n th e le v e r a r c h f il e w il l b e E x h i b i t C C 1 [ d ] a n d
t h a t w i ll a ls o b e w r it t e n s u b m i s s i o n s b y Mr M A p l e n i r e S u n d a r a m .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t is

fine.

Th e

fi l e c o n t a in in g

Mr

Rajesh

S u n d a r a m ’s a ffi d a v i ts – a ff i d a v i t , s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t o r s ta t e m e n t s
– s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t C C 1 [a ] a n d [b ] a n d
t h e o n e m a r k e d a d d i ti o n a l in f o r m a t io n r e S u n d a r a m w il l b e m a r k e d
E x h i b i t C C 1 [c ] a n d th e l e v e r a r c h fil e w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b it C C 1 [ d ] .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h fil e is w r i t te n s u b m is s i o n b y M r A p l e n i
re R Sundaram.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
C h a ir p e r s o n .

Thank you.

Thank you Mr

M r C h a ir p e r s o n t h i s m o r n i n g M s [i n d is t in c t ] a n d m y s e l f

w i ll b e le a d i n g t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r R a j e s h S u n d a r a m .

I may place on

r e c o r d th a t 3 . 3 N o t ic e s w e r e s e n t t o a ll t h e p e r s o n s t h a t a r e i m p l ic a te d

Page 2 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
b y M r S u n d a r a m i n b o t h h is m a in a n d t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h e r e i s o n ly o n e o u t o f t h e

o r d i n a r y m a n n e r o f s e r v ic e o n e o f t h e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s a n d t h a t is Mr
M o e g s i e n W i lli a m s .

He

was

served

v ia

w h a ts a p p

because

th e

c o m m i s s io n h a d d i ffic u lt y – t h e y e s t a b l is h c o m m u n ic a t i o n w i t h h i m b u t
la t e r o n c o u ld n o t .

B u t t h e n t h e o n l y a l t e r n a t iv e w a s t o s e r v e th e

n o t ic e v ia w h a t s a p p a n d h e h a s n o t r e s p o n d e d .

M a y I a ls o p l a c e o n

r e c o r d th a t o u t o f t h e f o u r te e n – t h i r t e e n i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s o n ly o n e
10

p e r s o n h a s r e a c t e d t o th e n o t ic e a n d t h a t i s M r A p l e n e a n d h is
s u b m is s io n s M r C h a ir m a n a r e t h e o n e t h a t a r e c o n t a i n e d i n t h a t le v e r
a r c h fi le w i t h is E x h i b i t C C 1 [ d ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

M a y b e j u s t f o r c la r i ty

s a k e I m a y ju s t p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t M r A p l e n e d o e s n o t w is h t o c r o s s e x a m in e M r S u n d a r a m a t t h i s s t a g e h o w e v e r h e d o e s s a y i n t h e v e r y
la s t p a r a g r a p h o f h is s ta t e m e n t – o f h is s u b m is s io n t h a t i n t h e e v e n t
t h a t M r S u n d a r a m i m p lic a t e s h i m t h e n a t t h a t s ta g e h e w i ll r e - c o n s i d e r
h is p o s it i o n a n d h e m a y a p p ly f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e h i m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

M r C h a ir m a n th e

e v i d e n c e o f M r S u n d a r a m w i ll b e r e l e v a n t t o p a r a g r a p h s 1 . 6 a n d 1 .9 o f
the terms of reference.

H e is t h e jo u r n a lis t t h a t w a s e m p l o y e d a s a

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c o n s u l t in g e d i t o r b y t h e A f r i c a N e w s N e t w o r k A N N 7 w h i c h i s k n o w n a s
A N N 7 f o r a v e r y s h o r t p e r i o d o f t i m e a n d h e c o m e s fr o m I n d i a . W e n o w
w i s h t o l e a d h is e v id e n c e . M a y h e th e n b e s w o r n in ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k t h e r e is c o u n s e l w h o m a y w is h t o p l a c e h i m s e l f
on record.
A D V VA N N I E K E R K :
CHAIRPERSON :
10

M a y i t p le a s e y o u M r C h a ir m a n I a p p e a r o n …

Oh please come forward so that it – it can be on

record. Thank you.
A D V VA N N I E K E R K :

M a y i t p l e a s e y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

I a m Va n

N i e k e r k a n d I a p p e a r o n a w a tc h i n g b r i e f o r t h e H o n o u r a b le M in is t e r
P a n d o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON :

P l e a s e a d m in is t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffi r m a ti o n t o t h e

witness.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Rajesh Sundaram.
20

REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o le m n ly s w e a r th a t a l l t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e
w i ll b e t h e tr u t h ; t h e w h o l e tr u t h a n d n o th i n g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o p le a s e
r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: So help me God.
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . B e f o r e w e s t a r t I j u s t w a n t to t h a n k y o u
M r S u n d a r a m f o r h a v in g tr a v e ll e d a l l t h e w a y fr o m I n d i a t o S o u th A f r i c a
t o a s s is t t h is c o m m i s s io n to s h a r e w i th it m a t te r s t h a t f a ll w i t h i n y o u r
p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e , t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t to s o m e o f t h e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e
10

o f th e c o m m is s i o n . W e a p p r e c i a t e th a t y o u h a v e c o m e t o g i v e e v i d e n c e
a ft e r a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i ti o n y o u h a v e b e e n u n w e ll fo r s o m e t i m e
a n d it m a y w e ll b e t h a t y o u h a v e n o t f u ll y r e c o v e r e d b u t w e a p p r e c i a t e
t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m in g . Th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI VICTORIA NORMAN SC:

M r C h a ir m a n ju s t o n a l ig h te r

n o t e m a y I j u s t i n d ic a te th a t M r S u n d a r a m h a s b r o u g h t h is t w in b r o t h e r
w i t h h i m a n d I – h a d I k n o w n t h a t t h e y w e r e t w i n b r o th e r s I w o u l d n o t
h a v e b e e n d i ff ic u l t w h e n h e i n d ic a t e d b e f o r e h e l e f t t h a t h e w a n te d to
b r i n g h i s b r o th e r a n d h e is s it t in g o n my fa r l e f t. H e is a n a t t o r n e y a l s o
in I n d ia .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . Ye s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e y s e e m t o lo o k a l ik e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th e y d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : Let us proceed.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u .

Mr Sundaram

y o u p r e p a r e d t w o a ffi d a v i t s , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d if – y o u h a v e t h r e e b u n d l e s
in fr o n t o f y o u .

I f y o u c o u l d j u s t t a k e th e o n e t h a t is w r i t t e n Ex h ib i t

C C 1 [ a ] a n d [ b ].
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Ja.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : D o y o u h a v e i t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . I f y o u t u r n o v e r y o u
w i ll s e e t h e r e is a n i n d e x a n d t h e n I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o j u s t t u r n t o p a g e
o f t h a t a ffi d a v it . Ar e y o u t h e r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . D o y o u s e e th e r e i s
a s i g n a t u r e th e r e , is t h a t y o u r s ig n a t u r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s i t i s .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e d a t e d id y o u h a v e t h a t

20

c o m m i s s io n e d o n t h e 5 A p r i l 2 0 1 9 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C T O R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n th a t y o u
d e p o s e d t o t h a t b e f o r e y o u r n o t a r y p u b l ic a s y o u s e e o n y o u r l e f t h a n d
s id e o f t h a t p a g e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I S t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d w h e r e w a s t h a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O h th is w a s d o n e in D e l h i .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: In India.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n c o u ld y o u
p l e a s e th e n tu r n t o y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v it w h i c h is m a r k e d u n d e r
C C 1 [ b ].
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d I w o u l d lik e y o u to tu r n to
p a g e 3 3 o f t h a t p a g e – o f th a t d o c u m e n t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Are you there?

Is t h a t y o u r

s ig n a tu r e t h a t a p p e a r s o n t h e r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s i t i s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u a n d d id y o u a ls o

d e p o s e t h is b e f o r e a n o t a r y p u b li c i n I n d i a ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e d a te w a s o n t h e 2 9

A p r il 2 0 1 9 .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

And is everything that have

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
s a i d b o t h in t h e m a i n a n d y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t s – a ffi d a v it s i s
e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y o u s t a te d u n d e r th e r e t r u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A b s o l u t e ly i t is tr u e a n d c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .

Could you just

t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n b r i e f ly a b o u t y o u r c a r e e r a s a j o u r n a li s t ? Yo u r C V
d o e s a p p e a r – M r C h a ir m a n h is C V a p p e a r s a s t h e v e r y la s t d o c u m e n t
in t h a t s a m e b u n d l e a t p a g e s 3 4 u p to 3 6 . Yo u m a y j u s t w a n t t o t u r n t o
t h a t a n d th e n j u s t b r i e fly t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h e r e y o u s tu d ie d a n d

q u a li fi e d a s a j o u r n a li s t a n d w h e r e y o u w o r k e d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

S o I d i d m o s t o f my s c h o o li n g i n D e l h i i n

I n d ia a t t h e F a th e r A g n e l S c h o o l a n d I h a v e a d e g r e e i n J o u r n a l is m
fr o m th e U n iv e r s i ty o f D e lh i . T h is I g o t i n 1 9 9 4 .

So since the time I

g r a d u a te d f r o m c o ll e g e I h a v e b e e n w o r d i n g s t r a ig h t t h r o u g h a s a
jo u r n a li s t.

I h a v e a l s o w o r k e d a s a c o n s u l t a n t – a m e d ia c o n s u l ta n t

a n d s o m e w h e r e d o w n t h e li n e y o u k n o w s in c e I h a d b e e n a t e l e v is i o n
jo u r n a li s t a n d a ls o s e t u p – h e l p s e t u p s t a t i o n s I a m a b i t o f a
jo u r n a li s t a n d a s t a r t - u p p e r s o n n e l .
20

1994

i m m e d ia t e l y

a ft e r

my

I s t a r t e d m y c a r e e r l ik e I s a id in

g r a d u a ti o n

w i th

th e

Business

W o r ld

M a g a z i n e w i t h is o n e o f t h e l e a d i n g b u s i n e s s m a g a z i n e s i n I n d i a p a r t o f
t h e A n a n d a b a z a r P a tr ik a G r o u p . F r o m t h e r e I jo i n e d t h e Z e e Te le f il m s
w h ic h i s – w h ic h h a s g o t a s t a t i o n c a ll e d Z e e N e w s w h ic h is o n e o f th e
o l d e s t t e l e v is i o n s t a ti o n s t h e r e b a c k in 1 9 9 6 .

I was there for about

s e v e n y e a r s s t a r ti n g o ff a s a r e p o r t e r a n d w o r k i n g my w a y u p t h r o u g h

Page 8 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
the ranks.

I h a v e h e a d e d t h e b u r e a u s i n C h e n n a i in S o u t h I n d i a a n d

B o m b a y. I w a s a b u r e a u c h i e f f o r Z e e N e w s f o r a f e w y e a r s . A f t e r Z e e
Te l e fi l m s I j o i n e d N e w D e lh i Te l e v is io n w h ic h i s a v e r y w e l l r e s p e c t e d
t e l e v i s i o n n e t w o r k in I n d i a .

I w a s t h e r e f o r a b o u t fo u r y e a r s .

A f te r

w h ic h I jo i n e d a n i n t e r n a ti o n a l t e l e v is i o n n e t w o r k w h ic h is t h e A l
Jazeera television.

I w a s t h e r e f o r t w o y e a r s I w a s th e I n d i a

c o r r e s p o n d e n t b a s e d o u t o f N e w D e lh i a n d I tr a v e l le d t h r o u g h t h e
r e g i o n t o S r i L a n k a t o o t h e r p a r ts o f S o u th As i a t o r e p o r t fo r A l
Jazeera.
10

I m m e d i a te ly a f te r t h a t I s t a r t e d – I j o i n e d a s t a r t - u p w h i c h

was New Ex.

I w a s p a r t o f t h e le a d e r s h i p t e a m t h e r e t h a t t o o k t h e

s t a ti o n t o la u n c h a n d th is is w h e r e I h a d m y e x p e r ie n c e i n h e l p i n g
la u n c h c h a n n e ls fr o m a n e d i to r i a l s t a n d p o i n t .

After New Ex I joined

t h e I n d i a To d a y G r o u p w h i c h is o n e o f t h e la r g e s t o l d e s t t e l e v is i o n
n e t w o r k s i n I n d i a . I w a s t h e r e f o r fo u r y e a r s a s a n E d i to r. P o s t w h i c h I
w e n t b a c k a n d jo i n e d a s t a ti o n w h i c h i s c a l le d N e w s N a t io n w h ic h w a s
ju s t s ta r t in g u p a t t h a t t i m e . S o I w a s th e fir s t e x e c u t iv e e d i t o r t h e r e
h e l p i n g t h e s t a ti o n l a u n c h . P a r t o f t h e l e a d e r s h ip t e a m t h a t la u n c h e d
t h a t s ta t io n . I m m e d ia t e l y a ft e r w h ic h I w a s c o n t a c t e d b y Mr L a x m i G o e l
w h o w a s p a r t o f S L M e d ia t h e jo in t v e n t u r e p a r t n e r o f A N N 7 w i th t h e
20

G u p t a f a m i ly a n d a s k e d w h e t h e r I w o u l d b e i n t e r e s te d t o g o t o S o u t h
A fr ic a t o s e t u p A N N 7 .

W h ic h I d id y o u k n o w a n d w h a t – w h y th e y

f o u n d m e a s u i t a b le c a n d i d a t e f o r th is w a s b e c a u s e I h a d e x p o s u r e t o
in t e r n a t io n a l m e d i a h a v in g w o r k e d w it h A l J a z e e r a fo r t w o y e a r s . A l s o
I had experience in being part of the leadership teams that set up
s t a ti o n s

in

India

a n d l a u n c h e d s t a ti o n s

Page 9 of 225

s u c c e s s f u l ly.

Post my

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
e x p e r i e n c e s a t A N N 7 I c a m e b a c k to In d i a I w a s a c o n s u l ta n t w i th t h e
R a j a s th a n P a tr i k a G r o u p h e r e a n d I w e n t o n fr o m t h e r e t o l a u n c h t w o
s t a ti o n s in t h e s o u th o f I n d i a . O n e w a s c a l le d – is c a ll e d N e w 7 Ta m i l
w h ic h is a Ta m il la n g u a g e n e w s s ta t io n , a 2 4 h o u r s n e w s s ta t io n w h ic h
is s t ill i n o p e r a ti o n s a n d is d o i n g v e r y w e ll .

P o s t w h ic h I l a u n c h e d

K a v e r i N e w s v e r y r e c e n tly w h ic h a g a in i s a s t a ti o n w h ic h is b a s e d o u t
o f C h e n n a i in Ta m i l N a d u p r o v i n c e in I n d i a . I c a m e b a c k t o D e l h i la t e
la s t y e a r b e c a u s e I h a d b e e n o n d i a ly s is f o r t w o y e a r s a n d y o u k n o w
t h e s e lo n g h o u r s o f w o r k i n g a n d I h a d to g o f o r d i a l y s is e v e r y s e c o n d
10

d a y w a s t a k i n g a t o l l o n m y h e a l t h a n d w e h a d a lr e a d y d e c id e d to g o f o r
a k id n e y tr a n s p l a n t w i t h I g o t d o n e i n J a n u a r y t h is y e a r. S o I q u i t m y
jo b l a s t y e a r a n d I h a v e b e e n a s k e d b y m y d o c t o r s t o t a k e r e s t a n d n o t
g e t a n y fu ll ti m e e m p l o y m e n t f o r s ix m o n t h s .

I t h a s b e e n fiv e m o n t h s

n o w s in c e m y tr a n s p l a n t a n d th a t i s a b r i e f s k e tc h o f m y c a r e e r s o f a r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you very much.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

Yo u m e n ti o n e d

b r i e fl y t h a t y o u w e r e r e c r u it e d b y M r L a x m i G o e l w h e n t h e A N N 7 w a s
going to be launched.
20

N o w c o u l d y o u j u s t – w e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i th

p e r i o d n o w.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Yo u w e r e r e c r u i te d a n d a t t h e
ti m e y o u w e r e in I n d ia a n d y o u w e r e s t il l e m p lo y e d , r i g h t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n a f t e r – d id y o u

Page 10 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h e n e n t e r i n to a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h th e m , a s ig n e d a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e m ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o r r y, s o r r y b e fo r e y o u r e s p o n d .

Ms Norman in

r e g a r d to n a m e s t h a t y o u t h i n k t h e tr a n s c r ib e r s m i g h t n o t e a s il y k n o w
h o w t o s p e ll j u s t h e l p t h e m b y m e n ti o n i n g t h e s p e l li n g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . B y s p e ll in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a ja .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O h th e s p e l li n g .

Thank you,

t h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

M r L a x m i G o e l is s p e l t L a x m i

a n d G o e l is G o e l . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . Ye s y o u s i g n e d – d i d y o u
s ig n a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h M r L a x m i G o e l o r w h o d i d y o u s i g n a n
a g r e e m e n t w i th ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e l l I w a s g iv e n a d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s t h e
I n f i n i ty M e d i a d o c u m e n t w h ic h I s i g n e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A n d th a t w a s a c o n t r a c t t o w o r k – to h e l p

s e t u p A N N 7 a s e d i t o r.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d i s t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t

t h a t a p p e a r s i n t h e s a m e b u n d l e t h a t y o u lo o k in g a t a t p a g e 6 a n d t h a t
is m a r k e d B 1 ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

Ye s .

I h a d – t h is i s a c o p y th a t I

r e c e i v e d . I h a d s i g n e d a c o p y a n d g iv e n o n to t h e H R t e a m t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u .

Page 11 of 225

I you go to

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
p a g e 6 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e d o c u m e n t w e fi n d i n Ex h i b it C C 1 [ a ] .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s M r C h a i r m a n w e s t il l

d e a li n g w i t h E x h ib i t C C 1 [a ] y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja what – what page of CC?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n – p a g e 6 .
CHAIRPERSON : Page 6.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d i t is E x h i b i t B 1 r ig h t u p to
B12.
10

CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

H a v e y o u f o u n d it M r

Sundaram.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J u s t g e t t in g t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Number 6 B1?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u .

y o u h a v e a n a m e o f e m p lo y e r t h e r e .
20

T h a t c o n tr a c t

Who was the name of the

employer?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I n fi n i ty M e d ia .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y a n d t h e n – a n d y o u r n a m e
a s th e e m p l o y e e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

Page 12 of 225

And then if you

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e y o u u n d e r B 1 2 . T h a t w a s th e e m p lo y e r th a t s ig n e d
t h e a g r e e m e n t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d y o u s a y t h a t y o u d id

s ig n i t b u t w e d o n o t h a v e – t h e c o m m is s i o n d o e s n o t h a v e t h e o n e t h a t
you signed?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll I s ig n e d – I w a s g i v e n tw o c o p i e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

I s ig n e d o n e c o p y a n d h a n d e d i t b a c k a n d

t h is is th e c o p y th a t I r e t a i n e d w i t h m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , y e s b u t y o u c o n f ir m t h a t

e v e r y t h i n g t h a t is h e r e is a c tu a l ly t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u s ig n e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : W i t h I n fi n i t y M e d ia ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . T h e n – s o y o u
a r e in In d ia th e n y o u s ig n e d t h is a g r e e m e n t a n d t h is a g r e e m e n t w a s
s ig n e d i n M a y, a m I r i g h t ?
paragraph.
20

N o t – if I m a y ju s t t a k e y o u t o t h a t

It was not signed when you came into South Africa you

w e r e s t il l i n I n d i a a t t h e t i m e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

The – during that period after

y o u s i g n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t w h e r e d id y o u s t a r t w o r k i n g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e le t u s . .

Page 13 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : M a y b e j u s t ta k e t h e d a t e fir s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d . B e f o r e w e t a lk a b o u t
w h e r e h e s ta r t s w o r k i n g . M a y b e y o u ju s t w a n t t o s p e n d a f e w s e c o n d s
h i g h l ig h ti n g t h e i m p o r t a n t fis s u r e s o f th e a g r e e m e n t o f th e e m p l o y m e n t
c o n tr a c t?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h e w a s t o d o , fo r h o w lo n g ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t k in d o f t h i n g .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I f y o u g o t o p a g e B 2 – p a g e 7
of the agreement.

Yo u h a v e th e r e th e fix e d t e r m o f t h e c o n tr a c t ?

At

page 7 are you there?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s o k a y w h a t is t h e – w h a t

w a s t h e f ix e d t e r m o f th e c o n tr a c t?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h e f ix e d t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c t w a s tw o

years.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s i t – a n d t h e d a te s th e r e ? I t
was to commence when?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll 1 J u n e – 1 M a y 2 0 1 3 a n d t il l t e r m in a t e
o n 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 5 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s . A n d t h e n if y o u l o o k a t

p a r a g r a p h 3 o r C la u s e 3 o f th a t a g r e e m e n t t h e r e is a h e a d in g t h e r e ,
w h a t d o e s it s a y ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A r e fo r e ig n e m p l o y e e s e m p lo y e d b y t h e

Page 14 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c o m p a n y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o t h is w o u l d h a v e a p p l ie d
to you, am I right?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t is i t th a t

t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o p a y f o r in 3 .1 . 1 . S a m e p a g e . B 2 p a g e 7 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : R i g h t a t t h e e n d .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

R ig h t a t th e e n d ja .

A lr ig h t s o 3 . 1 . 1 a i r

ti c k e t o n e w a y fo r t h e e m p l o y e e a n d a l l m e m b e r s o f h is d ir e c t fa m i ly b y
e l ig i b l e c l a s s a s d e te r m i n e d a n d a p p r o v e d in w r i t in g b y th e c o m p a n y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y d i d y o u b r in g a n y o f y o u r
f a m ily m e m b e r s ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : No I did not.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n i f y o u tu r n o v e r t h e

p a g e y o u h a v e g o t a p p o in t m e n t a n d j o b d e s c r i p ti o n . W h a t w a s y o u r –
w h a t w a s t h e n a tu r e o f t h e j o b t h a t y o u w e r e h ir e d t o d o ?
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O h w e ll I w a s g iv e n th e

d e s i g n a t io n o f e d i t o r a n d it w a s m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o h e l p s e t u p th e
20

s t a ti o n , t o m a k e th e e d i t o r i a l w o r k fl o w s , t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th a t t h e
t e c h n o l o g y th a t w a s b r o u g h t i n to g i v e c o n s u l ta n c y o n th a t b e c a u s e I
h a d w o r k e d w i t h v a r i o u s o t h e r s t a ti o n s s o w h il e I a m n o t a g e n e r a l
t e c h n ic ia n fr o m a n – fo r m a j o u r n a l is t p e r s p e c ti v e I k n o w w h i c h w o r k s
m o r e e ff ic ie n tl y o r is m o r e s u i t e d f o r t h e k in d o f s y s te m s th a t w e w e r e
s e t ti n g u p h e r e .

S o I w a s to g iv e m y a d v i c e o n t h o s e is s u e s .

Page 15 of 225

A ls o

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w o r k e d w i t h th e t e c h n ic a l t e a m t o e n s u r e t h a t w e h a d a ti m e li n e w h ic h
w e fo ll o w e d i n t e r m s o f w h e n t h e e q u i p m e n t c a m e i n . W h e n t h e p e o p l e
– w h e n th e e m p l o y e e s ’ w e r e h i r e d , w h e n t h e y w e r e tr a i n e d a n d th a t a ll
o f t h e m h a p p e n e d in a s e q u e n ti a l o r d e r s o t h a t n o ti m e w a s w a s te d .
And the resources were put into optimum use so that you know we got
t o l a u n c h t h e s t a t i o n i n a r e a s o n a b ly g o o d p e r i o d o f t i m e a n d w e l l th a t
w a s t h e m a n d a te th a t I h a d .

A l s o th a t a ll th e s t a ff w e r e tr a in e d

p r o p e r ly, t h e te c h n ic a l s t a ff a s w e ll a s t h e e d i to r i a l , t h e p r o c e s s e s a n d
s y s te m s a r e p u t i n p la c e , t h e w o r k fl o w s w e r e i n p la c e .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h r o u g h to la u n c h .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 4 .2 t h e r e
y o u h a d a g r e e d , w h a t d i d y o u a g r e e to d o i n t e r m s o f t h i s c o n tr a c t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
company

groups’

O h t h a t i t c o u l d b e tr a n s fe r r e d to o t h e r

c o n d it i o n

of

the

c o n tr a c t

upon

tr a n s fe r.

The

c o n tr a c tu a l s t a n d tr a n s f e r to t h e n e w c o m p a n y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

And were you ever

tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m In f in i ty M e d i a to a n y o t h e r c o m p a n y ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : No.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n i t d e a ls w i t h th e p l a c e
of work.

W h e r e w e r e y o u g o in g to w o r k ?

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I w a s t o l d t h a t I w o u l d w o r k in – o u t o f t h e
o ffic e i n M i d r a n d th a t w a s t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s f o r A N N 7 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

A n d t h e n i t d e a ls w i t h

y o u r h o u r s o f w o r k , y o u r p u b l ic h o li d a y s a n d y o u r r e m u n e r a t i o n .

Page 16 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n t h e r e m u n e r a t i o n a s
y o u c a n s e e i n p a r a g r a p h 9 . 1 w e d e b a te d t h is y e s t e r d a y i t is i n – i t is
n o t in S o u th A fr ic a n R a n d s , a m I r ig h t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o i t is in S o u t h A f r ic a n R a n d s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I s i t i n ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d th e n th e – th e L a k h t h a t is
t h e r e i n b r a c k e ts ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B a s ic a ll y L a k h s i s a h u n d r e d t h o u s a n d . S o
t h e y e x p r e s s e d th e s a l a r y t h a t I w o u ld g e t in r a n d s i n L a k h s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: So
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O h b u t i t is e x a c tl y t h e s a m e

amount?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I t is e x a c t ly th e s a m e a m o u n t y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n – th e n
h e d e a l w i t h a l l t h e o t h e r m a t te r s th a t r e l a te t o y o u r t e r m s o f
e m p l o y m e n t , y o u r s ic k le a v e , y o u r a n n u a l l e a v e a n d th e t e r m in a ti o n o f
20

t h e c o n tr a c t a n d h o w m u c h n o t ic e y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o g iv e if y o u h a d
to leave.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Then – so then you

s t a r t e d t h e n – w h a t d i d y o u d o e x a c t ly b e c a u s e n o w y o u s ti ll in I n d i a
that is May of 2013?

Page 17 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h a t d i d y o u d o a n d a t w h ic h

o ffic e s d i d y o u w o r k d u r i n g t h a t p e r io d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll I w o r k e d i n t h e o ff ic e o f M r L a x m i G o e l
w h o w a s a j o i n t v e n t u r e p a r t n e r.

H e h a d a n o ffic e t h a t w a s h is r e a l

e s t a t e b u s i n e s s a n d w e g o t a n o ff ic e – w e g o t a l i tt l e s p a c e t h e r e s o
[i n d is t in c t] G o e l a n d I w o u l d w o r k o u t o f t h a t – o u t o f t h a t o ffic e . W e
w o u ld i n te r v i e w t h e p e o p l e , t h e c o r e t e a m th a t w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
t a k e w i t h u s fo r t h i s la u n c h s o w h ic h in c lu d e d th e h e a d o f in p u t , th e
10

h e a d o f o u tp u t , t h e h e a d o f p r o d u c ti o n , s o w e w e r e – w e s p e n t t h e f ir s t
m o n th t h e r e i n t e r v i e w i n g t h e p e o p le f o r t h e p o s it i o n s .

A ls o c h a lk in g

o u t y o u k n o w m a k i n g a lo t o f e x c e l s h e e ts o n t h e p la n n i n g a n d t h e
r e q u ir e m e n t s t h e r e in te r ms o f h o w m a n y p e o p l e w o u l d b e r e q u ir e d f o r
each of the departments.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W h a t w o u ld b e t h e k e y r e s p o n s ib il it i e s o f

e a c h o f t h o s e i n d iv i d u a l s ? A ls o a n o r g a n i s a ti o n a l s tr u c tu r e w a s p u t i n
p l a c e d u r in g th a t t i m e . S o t h e b l u e p r i n t fo r t h e la u n c h o f th e s t a t i o n
w a s c r e a te d a t t h a t ti m e a p a r t f r o m t h e r e c r u i t m e n t a n d t h e i n te r v i e w i n g
20

t h a t w a s d o n e f o r th e c o r e t e a m t h a t w o u ld g o .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

A n d y o u m e n ti o n e d –

s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON :

Before you – before you proceed Ms Norman.

c o n tr a c t o f e m p l o y m e n t w a s c o n c l u d e d i n w h a t m o n th in 2 0 1 3 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll I d i d n o t …

Page 18 of 225

T h is

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
CHAIRPERSON : The last page…
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : I did not…
CHAIRPERSON :

H a s g o t 5 A p r il a s a s t a m p b u t i t – I d o n o t k n o w i f

that is the …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o I d id n o t w o r k fo r t h e f u l l t w o y e a r s . I

w a s h e r e fo r a b o u t fo u r m o n th s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I – and I went back on the 2 September

2013.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

S o I w a s h e r e b e tw e e n t h e 3

J u n e 2 0 1 3 to t h e 2 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o t h e c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c lu d e d w h e n – w h e n w a s
it s i g n e d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

h e c o n tr a c t w a s s i g n e d o n th is d a te w h ic h

is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o p y t h a t I h a v e d o e s n o t s h o w.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Th e 1 – i t is t h e 1 M a y 2 0 1 3 is w h e n it w a s
s ig n e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON : 1 May 1013?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d th e s ta r t i n g d a t e w o u ld b e – w a s g o i n g t o b e

w h e n – i m m e d ia t e l y ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I m m e d i a t e ly y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Okay

Page 19 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B u t I s t a r t e d o ff i n N e w D e l h i w o r k in g o u t

[i n d is t in c t] .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s t h a t is w h a t I a l s o w a n t e d t o – s o b e f o r e y o u

c a m e t o S o u t h A fr ic a y o u a l r e a d y s t a r t e d p e r fo r m in g y o u r d u t ie s i n N e w
Delhi?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d y o u h a v e j u s t in d i c a t e d e x a c t ly w h a t y o u w e r e

doing.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I n te r v i e w i n g p o t e n t ia l c a n d i d a t e s , e m p l o y e e s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Is that right?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o y o u w e r e – t h e c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c lu d e d i n
M a y – 1 M a y 2 0 1 3 i t w a s fo r tw o y e a r s .

Yo u w e r e g o i n g t o c o m e t o

S o u th A f r i c a

S o u t h A fr ic a y o u s ta r t e d

b u t b e fo r e y o u c a m e t o

p e r f o r m i n g y o u r d u t i e s i n N e w D e lh i ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
20

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . T h e n
y o u t h e n h a d t o c o m e t o S o u t h A f r i c a a f te r t h e o n e m o n t h o f
p r e p a r a ti o n i n s e t t in g u p o r p la n n i n g – y o u r p l a n n in g .

So coul d you

ju s t te ll u s h o w d id y o u g o a b o u t th e p r o c e s s o f a p p l y i n g fo r a v is a a n d
h o w y o u g o t i n to S o u t h A fr ic a ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O k a y y o u s e e a p p l y i n g f o r t h e v is a w h e n I

Page 20 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w a s – y o u k n o w w h e n I g o t – d e c i d e d t o t a k e u p th is p o s i ti o n I h a d
d o n e a b i t o f r e s e a r c h o n t h e in t e r n e t a n d w h a t I r e a d th e r e w a s fo r
w o r k p e r m i ts t o b e is s u e d i n S o u th A fr ic a t h e r e h a d to b e a n
a d v e r t is e m e n t t h a t n e e d e d t o b e p la c e d i n a p a p e r h e r e a n d i f t h e y d o
n o t fi n d a s u it a b l e p o s it i o n – a p e r s o n i n S o u th A f r i c a fo r t h a t p o s i ti o n
a n d t h e n t h e s e t h in g s w o u l d b e – y o u k n o w a w o r k p e r m i t w o u l d b e
is s u e d . B u t – a n d I th o u g h t t h a t i t w o u l d t a k e a lo n g t i m e f o r t h e w o r k
p e r m it t o b e i s s u e d t o m e a n d I a s k e d M r L a x m i G o e l a b o u t i t . B u t h e
t o l d m e th a t y o u k n o w t h e y h a d w h a t h e c a l l e d a s e t ti n g w i t h t h e h i g h
10

o ffic e i n S o u t h A fr ic a a n d th a t t h e v is a w o u l d b e d o n e in n o ti m e . H e
a s k e d m e t o g e t a y e l lo w f e v e r v a c c i n e , a n o t e fr o m a l o c a l p o lic e
s t a ti o n g iv i n g m e a s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e a n d a m e d i c a l c e r t i fic a t e fr o m a
g o v e r n m e n t d o c to r s a y i n g th a t I d o n o t h a v e t u b e r c u lo s is i f I r e m e m b e r
c o r r e c t ly a n d I a g a v e – I h a n d e d t h o s e d o c u m e n ts o n t o h i m .

I was

a ls o t o l d th a t t h e p r o c e d u r e f o r th e v is a s f o r th e p e o p l e g o i n g fr o m h e r e
w o u ld b y p a s s t h e n o r m a l p r o c e d u r e a n d th a t t h e d e t a i ls o f t h e s e p e o p le
w e r e t o b e s e n t t o Mr A s h u C h a w la i n – i n S o u th A f r ic a w h o w a s p a r t o f
t h e c o m p a n ie s t h a t t h e G u p t a f a m i ly r a n h e r e . I f o u n d o u t l a t e r t h a t h e
w a s a C E O fo r S o u th A f r ic a n C o m p u t e r s a n d h e w o u l d t h e n s p e a k w i th
20

h i g h o ffi c i a l s h e r e I w a s to ld a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e w h o w o u ld th e n
d ir e c t t h e r e le v a n t d e p a r t m e n ts t o e x p e d i t e t h e v i s a s a n d a ls o b y p a s s
s o m e o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t m a y b e n e e d e d .

S o I fo u n d t o m y

s u r p r is e t h a t m y v i s a w a s c l e a r e d f a ir ly q u i c k ly w i th in a m a t t e r o f a d a y.
Yo u k n o w t h e y h a d g o n e i n t h e r e , s u b m i tt e d t h e d o c u m e n ts . I d i d n o t
h a v e t o g o p e r s o n a lly. I w a s n o t i n t e r v ie w e d a t a l l a t a n y p o in t n o r d o I

Page 21 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e m e m b e r a n y o f m y o t h e r c o l l e a g u e s b e i n g i n te r v i e w e d b y a n y o ffic i a l
a t t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n h ig h c o m m i s s i o n i n N e w D e l h i .

We ha d handed

o v e r o u r d o c u m e n ts , t h e p a s s p o r t p l u s t h e o th e r d o c u m e n t s to M r L a x m i
G o e l ’s o ffic e to h i s s e c r e ta r y a n d s h e h a d t h e n a r r a n g e d fo r i t t o b e
taken to the South African high commission.
A s h u C h a w la a n d t h e w o r k w a s d o n e .

C a l ls w e r e m a d e t o M r

I d o r e m e m b e r v e r y d i s ti n c tl y

t h a t d u r in g t h a t ti m e [i n d i s t i n c t ] K u m a r w h o w a s a p e r s o n w h o w o u ld –
w h o h a d r e c e n t ly b e e n h i r e d a s p a r t o f t h e H R te a m in h i s e n th u s ia s m
h a d g o n e t o t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n h ig h c o m m i s s io n w i t h th e p a s s p o r t s
10

w i t h o u t i n f o r m in g M r A s h u C h a w l a a n d o f c o u r s e h e w a s d e n ie d a c c e s s .
H e a s k e d t o s p e a k w i th s o m e b o d y a t t h e – a t t h e v i s a s e c ti o n t h e r e a n d
I t h i n k t h e p o in t p e r s o n w e w e r e to l d w a s M r S h a k i l . H e a s k e d t o s p e a k
t o Mr S h a k i l a n d h e w a s t o l d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o S h a k i l w h o w o r k e d
there.

So – but of course the next day Mr Laxmi Goel gave him a

d r e s s in g d o w n t o l d h i m t h a t i f t h e r e a r e v is a s t o b e p r o c e s s e d th e
p r o c e s s t o b e f o l l o w e d w a s f o r M r A s h u C h a w la to b e i n f o r m e d fo r h i m
t o t h e n u s e h is in f lu e n c e in t h e g o v e r n m e n t t o g i v e in s t r u c t i o n s t o t h e
h i g h c o m m is s i o n i n N e w D e l h i f o r th e m t o i s s u e t h o s e v is a s . A n d v e r y
tr u e t o th a t th e v is a s t h a t I h a d a p p li e d fo r a n d m y c o ll e a g u e s w h o
20

c a m e i n fr o m D e l h i a p p li e d f o r c a m e in v e r y q u ic k ly o n o u r a p p l ic a t i o n .
A ll t h e t h i n g s t h a t I h a d r e a d o n t h e in t e r n e t a b o u t t h e t i m e it w o u l d
t a k e a n d t h e p r o c e d u r e w a s b y p a s s e d f o r t h e s e v is a s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o a r e s a y i n g th a t y o u

n e v e r h a d t o a p p ly fo r e i t h e r a w o r k p e r m i t o r a n i n tr a c o m p a n y v i s a ,
t h is w a s a ll d o n e fo r y o u a t t h e o ff ic e o f Mr L a x m i G o e l ?

Page 22 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o I – I h a d t o f il l o u t t h e v is a f o r m . I h a d
t o g e t a v a c c in a ti o n f o r t h e y e l l o w f e v e r. I h a d to g e t a c e r t i fi c a t e fr o m
a g o v e r n m e n t d o c t o r w h o h a p p e n e d to b e a n e ig h b o u r s o I g o t i t s i g n e d
fr o m h i m . A n d a l s o t h e r e w a s a p o li c e v e r if ic a ti o n s o w h ic h is b a s i c a ll y
a c e r ti f ic a t e w h ic h i s i s s u e d b y a p o lic e o ffic e r o f a p a r ti c u l a r r a n k
w h ic h i s q u i t e e a s y t o g e t .

S o I g o t a ll t h e d o c u m e n t s t o g e t h e r a n d

h a n d e d i t w i t h t h e v i s a f o r m t o L a x m i G o e l ’s o ffic e a n d th a t is it a n d
w i t h i n a v e r y s h o r t t i m e th e p a s s p o r t c a m e b a c k w i t h t h e v is a .
n o t i n te r v i e w e d .
10

I was

I d i d n o t f a c e – I d i d n o t h a v e t o g o to th e h ig h

c o m m i s s io n . B y – I d i d n o t h a v e t o fa c e a n i n te r v i e w o r a n y o f t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Now the visa that you

t a lk in g a b o u t w h i c h y o u r e c e iv e d is t h a t t h e o n e t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e –
s a m e b u n d le E x h i b i t C C 1 [ a ] a t p a g e 2 7 ? I n f a c t t h a t is a c o p y o f y o u r
passport. It should be E3 at page 28.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s t h i s i s t h e v is a a n d t h o s e a r e th e

s t a m p s o f t h e e x i t a n d e n tr y a s w e l l.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w l e t u s … Ye s . N o w le t
us…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y t h a t is C C 1 [ c ] 2 8 y o u s a y ?
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P a g e 2 8 t h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hang on one second.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

And then could you just read

in t o t h e r e c o r d w h a t d o e s E 3 – w h a t i s w r i t t e n o n E 3 ?

W h a t ty p e o f

v is a is t h a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I t is a n i n tr a c o m p a n y tr a n s f e r p e r m it .

Page 23 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
CHAIRPERSON : I am sorry Ms Norman.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex h ib i t C C 1 C p a g e 2 8 f o r m e o n m i n e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 1 A C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : C C – i t is E X H I B I T C C 1 A . T h e
fir s t b u n d le t h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t . C C 1 A a t p a g e 2 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . Ye s . C o u ld y o u
10

ju s t r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d w h a t is w r i t t e n o n th e r e ?

Thank you

Mr Sundaram.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h i s is a n i n tr a - c o m p a n y tr a n s f e r p e r m i t

w h ic h w a s is s u e d t o m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n a m e – i t h a s y o u r
name and your passport number?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

And then there are certain

c o n d i ti o n s t h e r e . I n f a c t i t h a s g o t th e d a t e s . C o u l d y o u j u s t r e a d w h a t
w e r e t h o s e d a t e s is s u e d w h e r e a n d w h e n ?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I c a n n o t r e a d o u t o f th is b u t I w i ll r e a d i t o u t
o f m y p a s s p o r t . I t h in k …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I h a v e g o t a c o p y w h ic h h a s g o t – g o t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Yo u h a v e a b e t te r – it is b e t t e r,
o k a y.

Page 24 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Is s u e d i n N e w D e l h i o n 2 2 / 0 5 /2 0 1 3 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I f I r e a d c o r r e c tly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n t h e r e a r e c o n d i ti o n s .

B e f o r e c o n d i ti o n s t h e r e is s o m e t h in g e n t e r o n o r b e f o r e w h a t is th e
d a t e th e r e ? I h a v e g o t 2 0 M a y 2 1 0 5 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . Ye s 2 0 M a y 2 0 1 5 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s

and

th e n

there

are

c o n d i ti o n s . C o u l d y o u r e a d t h o s e c o n d i t io n s ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : M y e y e s i g h t is a li t t le w e a k b u t I …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y. W h a t I h a v e h e r e t e l l m e
if it is c o r r e c t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t w o r d s e e ms t o b e “ s e c o n d m e n t” .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : “ S e c o n d m e n t” . T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . I t s a y s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l a s I s e e i t s e e ms t o b e :
“ Se c o n d m e n t t o …”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : To in c l u d e In f in i ty M e d i a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : “ In f in i ty M e d i a … ”

20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : E d i to r f o r 2 4 m o n t h s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : “ A s e d i t o r fo r … ”
Is i t 2 4 m o n t h s ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 24 months.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 2 4 m o n th s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a r e y o u a b l e t o c o m p l e te ?

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o w e x t e n d m a y n o t c h a n g e c o n d i ti o n s t o

e n s u r e lo c a l s k il l s a r e tr a n s fe r r e d w i t h i n p e r i o d .
CHAIRPERSON : I – I wonder Ms Norman in case …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n le s s y o u a r e a b le t o r e a d t h i s …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E a s ily w h e t h e r i f y o u – i f y o u h a v e a …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Could

make

a

copy

for

( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : L o o k a t h is – a t t h e a c tu a l …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P a s s p o r t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a s s p o r t a n d y o u r e a d i t fr o m …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t o t h e r e c o r d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h a t – th a t w il l h e l p .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u r – y o u r e y e s i g h t b e b e t t e r e v e n t h o u g h b o t h o f

y o u a r e w e a r in g g l a s s e s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W e a r in g g l a s s e s .

Ye s , th a n k

you. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d t h e n o n c e y o u h a v e r e a d h e c a n j u s t c o n fir m

whether what you read …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I s ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

Accords with his understanding of what is written in

Page 26 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
h is p a s s p o r t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Thank

you.

Thank

you

M r C h a ir m a n . It r e a d s :
“ I n tr a - c o m p a n y tr a n s f e r p e r m i t .”
I t h a s g o t M r S u n d a r a m R a n d i t h a s g o t ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON : I think – I think where it says …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) s e c o n d m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te m p o r a r y r e s id e n c e p e r m i t – is i t n o t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . It h a s g o t t e m p o r a r y …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d is s u e d a n d s o o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t. I t is t e m p o r a r y
r e s id e n c e p e r m i t .
e n tr i e s :

Is s u e d a t N e w D e lh i o n 2 2 M a y 2 0 1 3 .

Number of

m u l t ip l e a n d i t h a s g o t c o n d it i o n s a n d e n t e r o n o r b e f o r e

2 0 1 5 /0 5 / 2 0 . C o n d i t io n s : s e c o n d m e n t to I n fi n i ty M e d i a a s e d it o r fo r 2 4
m o n th s . N o n - e x t e n d , m a y n o t c h a n g e c o n d i ti o n s t o e n s u r e lo c a l s k i lls
tr a n s fe r w i t h in p e r i o d . D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l H o m e A ff a ir s a n d t h e n i f y o u …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

I t h i n k y o u m u s t a ls o r e a d w h a t is a b o v e w h a t y o u

h a v e r e a d . I t h in k w e s h o u ld h a v e s ta r t e d a t t h e t o p .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D o y o u w a n t to – to r e a d t h a t a s w e ll ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

I w i ll s t a r t :

i t is c o n tr o l

number A04701810 and t hen on the write hand corner yo u have got
D H A 1 6 3 5 R e p u b li c o f S o u t h A f r i c a a n d t h e n y o u h a v e i n t r a - c o m p a n y

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
tr a n s fe r p e r m i t a n d t h e n a m e S u n d a r a m R a n d p a s s p o r t n u m b e r
K9491213 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n i t g o e s t h e p a r t th a t

w e h a v e a lr e a d y r e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t – d o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i th
what …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : W h a t y o u r e c e i v e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n m a y b e y o u c a n a ls o r e a d u p t h e r e – is i t n o t
w r i t t e n v a li d u n t il a n d th e n c o n d i t io n s w o r k – a t th e to p o r …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . It w o u ld b e n u m b e r – t h a t
is e n t e r o n o r b e fo r e . Is th a t th e o n e Mr C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : N o , n o w h a t y o u s e e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s e e m s t w o p a g e s …

20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
y o u a r e s e e i n g a r e th e s ta m p s .

Ye s M r C h a ir b u t w h a t – w h a t

W e a r e g o i n g to t a k e h i m t h r o u g h

those.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Yo u a r e r e a d i n g fr o m th e

s t a m p s o f e n tr y …

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d e x i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
Thank you.

T h a n k y o u , o k a y.

Thank you.

I s it c o r r e c t t h e n t h a t f o r th e in tr a - c o m p a n y w a s i t y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e t o w o r k f o r a p a r t ic u l a r c o m p a n y t h e
s a m e c o m p a n y th a t h a s a b r a n c h o r H e a d O ff ic e in J o h a n n e s b u r g . I s
t h a t h o w y o u u n d e r s to o d i t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is h o w I u n d e r s t o o d i t .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B u t I w a s t o l d b y Mr L a x m i G o e l t h a t t h i s is
p e r f e c t ly l e g a l a n d – y o u k n o w - t h e y – t h e y w o u ld n o t is s u e i t
o th e r w i s e .

T h a t it w a s i s s u e d b y th e H i g h C o m m is s i o n .

They went

t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s a n d i f i t w e r e r e a l ly t h e c a s e i t w o u l d n o t b e . S o I
w a s a s s u r e d a t th a t ti m e t h a t t h i s is a p e r m i t w h ic h i s t h e r i g h t
d o c u m e n t f o r m e t o tr a v e l a n d w o r k i n S o u t h A f r ic a .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Th e n o n t h e – o n t o p o f

t h a t t h e n i t i s – y o u w il l s e e t h a t th e r e is d a t e s t a m p s . W h e n d i d y o u
a c t u a ll y l e a v e I n d ia o r N e w D e l h i to c o m e t o S o u t h A f r i c a ?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I l e f t o n 3 J u n e 2 0 1 3 w h ic h is s i x y e a r s fr o m
t o d a y. I t is e x a c tly s ix y e a r s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , o k a y a n d i f y o u l o o k a t

y o u r p a s s p o r t y o u w il l f i n d t h a t s t a m p …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Huh-uh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

I t is ju s t a b o v e w h a t y o u h a v e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e a d o n y o u r v is a .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n b e lo w – n e x t to i t
y o u a ls o s e e t h a t t h e r e i s a n o th e r e n tr y s t a m p . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : J u s t n e x t to – t o t h e o n e t h a t i s
t h e r o u n d s t a m p a n d th e n t h e r e is o n e …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S q u a r e .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n it is w r i t t e n O R Ta m b o
…
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I n t e r n a t io n a l A ir p o r t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o th e r e i s o n e s t a m p o f m y e x it f r o m D e lh i
f o r t h e s a m e d a t e a n d o n e e n tr y …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O f t h e s a m e d a y, y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

20

And then – and then that one

fr o m – t h a t is w r it t e n O R Ta m b o …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h a t i s t h e v a l id d a t e ?

What

a r e t h e d a te s t h a t a p p e a r o n t h a t s t a m p ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is 2 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : N o , n o . Yo u – n o , n o t th a t o n e .

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Yo u a r e r e a d i n g t h e o n e t h a t is s q u a r e . N o t t h e r o u n d o n e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O k a y, t h e s q u a r e o n e is 3 J u n e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 2013.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n v a l i d u n ti l?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h is i s t il l 2 M a y 2 0 1 5 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : N o , i t i s – i t is 2 0 M a y o n m in e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : 2 0 M a y - j a 2 0 M a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I s i t 2 0 M a y 2 0 1 5 ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d th e n b e l o w th a t y o u h a v e

g o t c o n d i ti o n s . W h a t a r e t h e c o n d i ti o n s ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: It says work.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : W o r k a n d th e n w e a r e g o in g to
c o m e t o th e s t a m p b u t w h a t w e m i g h t ju s t a s w e ll m e n t io n i s th e o n e
t h a t i s r o u n d t h a t is a ls o w r i t t e n O R Ta m b o …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : W h a t d o e s t h a t s i g n i fy ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is a n e x i t s t a m p .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h a t i s w h e n y o u l e f t S o u th

A fr ic a ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : To g o b a c k t o N e w D e l h i …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h a t w a s t h e d a t e ?

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M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is 2 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . W e w e r e g o i n g
t o d e a l w i t h th a t l a t e r i n y o u r – i n y o u r e v id e n c e . S o th is is w h a t y o u
c a r r i e d t o S o u t h A f r i c a c o m i n g in a n d o u t o f th e c o u n tr y ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

J u s t f o r c l a r i ty s a k e a m I

c o r r e c t o r is it s o th a t y o u w e r e n e v e r e m p lo y e d b y M r L a x mi G o e l ’s
company?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: No.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d is i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t

I n f i n i ty M e d i a N e t w o r k i s o n ly a c o m p a n y t h a t w a s i n S o u t h A fr ic a o r d i d
it o p e r a t e a ls o i n N e w D e l h i?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

To th e b e s t o f my k n o w l e d g e t h e r e is n o

c o m p a n y c a ll e d I n fi n i ty M e d i a t h a t w o r k s in I n d i a .

T h e In f in i ty M e d ia

t h a t – t h a t I s i g n e d a c o n t r a c t f o r w a s a c o m p a n y th a t is i n S o u t h
A fr ic a .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o i f a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y
it i s f o u n d t h a t y o u r e n tr y d i d n o t c o m p ly w i t h t h e la w s o f th e c o u n tr y it
w o u ld a p p ly t o y o u r v is a a n d t o a l l t h e o t h e r v is a s t h a t w e r e r e c e iv e d
20

b y y o u r – b y y o u r c o l le a g u e s a t th e ti m e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

I w o u l d l ik e t o ta k e y o u

ju s t s t il l o n t h e v is a is s u e b e f o r e w e l e a v e i t I w o u l d l ik e t o r e f e r t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n to E X H I B I T C C 1 D M r C h a i r m a n w h i c h is t h e b ig le v e r a r c h
fi le n e x t t o y o u . T h e s e a r e th e s u b m i s s i o n s b y M r A p l e n i w h o w a s t h e

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f o r m e r D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f H o m e A ff a ir s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e y o u d o th a t j u s t to o …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

What was your understanding of what was meant by

in tr a - c o m p a n y tr a n s f e r ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W h a t I w a s t o l d a t th a t ti m e a f t e r I h a d

a g r e e d to e m p l o y m e n t a t In f in i ty w a s t h a t t h e c l a s s o f v i s a w h ic h w o u l d
a l lo w m e t o w o r k a n d h a v e a t e m p o r a r y r e s id e n c e i n S o u t h A fr i c a is
c a l l e d a n i n tr a - c o m p a n y tr a n s f e r a n d I w a s t o l d th a t s in c e t h e r e is a
10

jo in t

v e n tu r e

b e tw e e n

Essel

Media

w h ic h

is

a

company

that

M r L a x m i G o e l o w n e d a n d M r G u p t a ’s c o m p a n y t h e G u p t a f a m il y o w n e d
a c o m p a n y h e r e t h a t i t w a s a – i t w a s a tr a n s fe r b e t w e e n t h e tw o j o i n t
v e n tu r e p a r t n e r s fr o m – y o u k n o w – fr o m o n e j o in t v e n t u r e p a r tn e r to
t h e o t h e r. S o i t w a s a ll th e s a m e – i t w a s a l l p a r t o f In f in i ty M e d i a b u t I
w a s t o l d s i n c e it w a s a c o m p a n y w h i c h w a s j o i n t v e n t u r e w h ic h h a d t w o
d i ff e r e n t p r i n c i p a l s .

S o i t w a s a tr a n s fe r fr o m o n e p r in c i p a l ’s – o n e

p r i n c i p a l i n to t h e – i n to t h e m a i n c o m p a n y.

S o th a t w a s m y

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f a – o f w h a t a n i n tr a - c o m p a n y t r a n s f e r w a s .

T h a t is

w h a t I w a s t o l d b y M r L a x m i G o e l a t th a t t i m e .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

B u t t h e o n e c o m p a n y t o t h e e x te n t t h a t i n –

in tr a - c o m p a n y t r a n s f e r m e a n t th a t y o u w e r e b e e n tr a n s f e r r e d fr o m
within one part of the same company to another part of the same
c o m p a n y t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h a t is w h a t i t m e a n t . O n e , a r e y o u s a y i n g
t h a t y o u w e r e n o t in – e m p l o y e d b y In f in i ty M e d i a i n I n d i a b e f o r e y o u
w e r e e m p lo y e d b y In f in i ty M e d i a i n te r m s o f w h i c h y o u w e r e g o in g t o

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c o m e t o S o u t h A f r ic a ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I h a d a c o n tr a c t w it h In f in i ty M e d i a w h ic h

w a s v a l id fr o m 1 M a y b u t I w a s w o r k in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I a c c e p t t h a t . B e fo r e th a t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B e f o r e t h a t I w a s w o r k in g f o r a n o th e r

c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I w a s w o r k in g f o r A l f a D C O M w h ic h h a s g o t
nothing to do with …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : E s s e l M e d ia o r a n y o f th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is a to t a l d i ff e r e n t e n t i ty.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d t h a t c o m p a n y h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h In f in i ty

M e d i a a n d i t h a d n o t h i n g to d o w i th a n y c o m p a n y th a t m a y h a v e h a d a
jo in t v e n tu r e w i t h I n fi n it y M e d i a ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o . I t w a s a to t a ll y d i ffe r e n t e n ti ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . M a y b e j u s t t o d e a l
20

– s t il l d e a li n g w i t h y o u r – w i t h y o u r v is a i s s u e a n d ju s t r e fe r y o u – i f I
m a y r e f e r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o E X H I B I T C C 1 D w h ic h is t h e s u b m i s s io n b y
M r A p le n i w h o w a s th e f o r m D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f H o m e A ff a i r s d u r i n g
that period.

H e h a s p u t u p d o c u m e n ts .

I ju s t w a n t to r e f e r y o u t o a

d o c u m e n t t h a t m a k e s r e f e r e n c e t o y o u r p a s s p o r t a n d y o u r v i s a a n d th a t
w i ll b e a t p a g e 2 2 8 .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is 2 2 8 i n th e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I n t h e le v e r a r c h fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e v e r a r c h fi le ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t – w h a t d iv i d e r ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h a t is C C 1 D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h d iv i d e r ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

I t w i ll b e s ix – u n d e r n i n e –

s o r r y – d i v i d e r n in e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y, I h a v e g o t i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u .

If I may refer

y o u Mr S u n d a r a m t o i te m 3 1 o n th a t p a g e . H a v e y o u f o u n d i t ? A r e y o u
there Mr Sundaram?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s I a m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

I f y o u lo o k a t

it e m 3 1 w h a t is w r i t t e n t h e r e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: It has my name Sundaram Rajesh and it has
g o t m y p a s s p o r t n u m b e r a n d it is g i v e n t h e c a te g o r y o f v i s a w h i c h w a s
in tr a - c o m p a n y tr a n s f e r p e r m i t i s s u e d o n 2 2 M a y 2 0 1 3 a n d v a li d f o r t w o
20

y e a r s a n d i t s a y s i t i s v a li d /r e s id e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W e a r e – M r C h a i r m a n w e
a r e g o i n g to d e a l w i t h w h a t p r o m p t e d t h e s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s m u c h l a t e r i n
M r S u n d a r a m ’s e v id e n c e b u t I j u s t w a n t t o j u s t d e a l w i th t h e n u m b e r s
a n d – a n d t h e v i s a it s e l f a t th is s t a g e .

If I may just – sorry – I just

w a n t t o t a k e y o u to a n o t h e r p a g e q u ic k ly a n d t h e n i f y o u g o to p a g e 3 1 9

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
o f th a t s a m e b u n d l e t h a t i s th e E X H I B I T C C 1 D w h ic h is th e l e v e r a r c h
fi le u n d e r i t e m 9 .

I f y o u l o o k a t p a g e 3 - 1 - 9 th a t is t h e c o p y o f y o u r

p a s s p o r t . A m I c o r r e c t - t h e o n e t h a t y o u h a v e ju s t r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 3-1-9?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , 3 - 1 - 9 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s th is i s a c o p y o f m y p a s s p o r t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n if y o u tu r n o v e r th e

p a g e t h a t is p a g e 3 2 0 y o u h a v e a c o p y o f y o u r v is a . I s t h a t t h e s a m e
t h a t w e w e r e d e a li n g w i th ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s i t i s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t t h e s a m e , t h a n k y o u . W e
a r e g o i n g t o – b e c a u s e y o u d e a l w i th t h e is s u e s a b o u t H o m e A ff a i r s
m u c h l a t e r i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d w e – I d o n o t w a n t t o c o n f u s e is s u e s .
W e a r e g o i n g t o p a r k t h i s f o r a w h i le a n d I w o u l d l ik e u s to t e ll t h e
C o m m i s s i o n t h e n a b o u t y o u r a r r iv a l in S o u t h A fr ic a .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Huh-uh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

20

T h e n y o u h a v e g o t y o u r v is a .

Yo u h a v e g o t y o u r p a s s p o r t . Yo u a r e a t t h e a ir p o r t – 2 J u n e – 3 J u n e
w h e n y o u le f t N e w D e l h i – 2 0 1 3 .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Huh-uh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d w h e n y o u a r r i v e d w h e r e d id
you work?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

When I arrived here I was taken to a

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
g u e s t h o u s e w h ic h is o w n e d b y t h e – t h e G u p t a f a m il y a n d I – I m e a n I
ju s t w a n t t o g iv e a s h o r t d e s c r i p ti o n o f h o w i t w a s n o w.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I t w a s l ik e a l a b o u r c a m p . Yo u k n o w t h e r e
w e r e t h r e e r o o m s a n d a b o u t s ix o r s e v e n p e o p l e w h o w o u ld s t a y t h e r e
a n d I w a s a l i tt l e s u r p r i s e d – y o u k n o w – b e c a u s e b o t h ( in d is ti n c t) a n d I
w e r e ( i n d i s ti n c t) i n t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t t e a m a n d w e w o u l d h a v e
e x p e c te d o r – y o u k n o w - fr o m o u r e x p e r i e n c e s s ta y e d a t a h o t e l
p r o b a b ly t il l th e t i m e o t h e r a r r a n g e m e n ts w e r e m a d e b u t w e w e r e p u t i n
10

t h is g u e s t h o u s e w h i c h h a d o n e p e r s o n f r o m N e p a l w h o w a s o n a v is i t
v is a w h o w a s – w h o t o l d u s t h a t h e w a s b e i n g p a i d a s a la r y i n I n d ia .
H e w a s n o t g e t t in g a s a la r y h e r e a n d h e w a s t o c o o k f o r a ll t h e
la b o u r e r s w h o h a d c o m e fr o m I n d ia w h o w e r e – w h o w e r e e n g a g e d in
t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f t h e – o f th e s t u d io a n d h e h a d a l s o to c o o k fo r t h e
p e o p l e t h r e e m e a ls a d a y f o r t h e p e o p le w h o w e r e s t a y i n g a t t h e
g u e s t h o u s e a n d a ls o t o c l e a n th e i r c l o t h e s , to d o a ll th e h o u s e k e e p in g
work and he would not have a single Rand to spend on himself because
a l l t h e m o n e y th a t h e g o t w a s a t Mr L a x m i G o e l ’s o ffi c e i n I n d i a a n d
t h a t m o n e y w a s t h e n s e n t – y o u k n o w – t a k e n b y h is u n c l e a n d t a k e n t o

20

N e p a l fr o m th e r e . S o i t w a s a v e r y s h o c k i n g k in d o f e n v ir o n m e n t – y o u
k n o w – b e c a u s e t h e – t h e b a th r o o m t h e r e h a d c l o th e s s tr e w n a l l o v e r
t h e p la c e a n d i t w a s a m e s s r e a lly.

O n e o f m y c o l le a g u e s w h o c o m e

w i t h m e M r ( in d i s ti n c t) w a s s e n t t o a n o th e r g u e s t h o u s e a n d h e g a v e m e
a c a l l i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e n i g h t o n t h e s a m e n i g h t th a t w e a r r iv e d h e r e
t h a t t h e r e w e r e r a t s r u n n in g a r o u n d th a t g u e s t h o u s e .

Page 37 of 225

So – and he

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c a l l e d m e u p a n d s a id M r S u n d a r a m ( i n d i s t in c t ) . Yo u k n o w is t h is t h e
p l a c e t h a t w e a r e g o in g t o w o r k .

S o – s o y e s th a t w a s a b r i e f

d e s c r ip t io n o f w h e r e w e s ta y e d a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e I – t h e o ff ic e t h a t I
w o r k e d a t w a s t h e M i d r a n d O ffi c e o f A N N 7 w h i c h a ls o h o u s e d t h e N e w
A g e N e w s p a p e r a s w e l l. T h a t is t h e o ff ic e fr o m w h ic h w e w o r k e d . T h e
N e w A g e O ffi c e w e w e r e g iv e n a s m a l l s p a c e t h e r e o n t h e f ir s t f lo o r.
On

th e

same

floor

where

M r N a z e e m H o w a h a d a n o ffi c e .

Mr A t u l G u p t a

had

an

o ffic e .

There was a conference room out of

w h ic h w e w e r e w o r k i n g o u t o f . T h e A N N 7 S t u d i o a t t h a t t i m e w a s s t i l l
10

u n d e r c o n s t r u c t i o n a n d w e c o u ld n o t w o r k f r o m t h e r e . S o t h e fir s t f e w
w e e k s w e w e r e w o r k i n g fr o m t h e N e w A g e O ff ic e t o th e r i g h t o f t h e
compound.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I f I m a y j u s t q u ic k ly t a k e
y o u to p a r a g r a p h o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t i s E X H I B I T C C 1 A a t p a g e 1 o f
your statement.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W e a r e s t ill g o i n g t o d e a l
w i t h y o u h a v in g w r i t te n y o u r b o o k . T h a t i s g o in g t o c o m e la s t b e c a u s e
y o u d id t h a t a f te r y o u l e f t S o u t h A f r i c a .

20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o I w i ll s k i p th o s e p a r a g r a p h s .
I a m s k ip p i n g t h e m d e li b e r a t e ly.

N o w ju s t t e l l u s t h e n y o u g e t i n to

S o u th A f r ic a a n d y o u s ta r t w o r k i n g i n S o u t h A f r i c a a n d y o u a r e t e ll in g
t h e C o m m i s s io n a b o u t w h a t y o u d i s c o v e r e d i n p a r a g r a p h 4 .
that?

Page 38 of 225

W h a t is

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll a t th e t i m e o f m y e m p l o y m e n t w h e n I

a g r e e d t o j o i n I n fi n it y M e d ia I w a s n o t to l d t h a t t h e r e w a s – I w a s t o l d
t h e r e w a s a t h ir d p a r tn e r b u t I w a s to ld t h a t t h a t is a lo c a l e n ti ty. I w a s
n e v e r to ld t h a t t h a t w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s s o n o r th e P r e s i d e n t h a d a n
in t e r e s t i n t h i s . M y d e c i s i o n t o j o i n w o u l d h a v e b e e n d i ff e r e n t p e r h a p s
if I h a d k n o w n a b o u t i t b u t a f t e r I c a m e h e r e o v e r a p e r i o d o f a f e w
w e e k s I w a s g e t t in g a s e n s e t h a t t h e r e i s a n i n v o lv e m e n t o f th e
P r e s i d e n t in t h i s e n t ir e p r o je c t a n d o p e r a ti o n s w h ic h w a s c o n f ir m e d
i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r t h e f ir s t m e e t in g t h a t w e h a d w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t.
10

I

w a s to l d a t t h a t t i m e u n o ff ic i a lly t h a t D u d u z a n e Zu m a w a s o n e o f t h e
partners here.

I w a s t o l d t h e r e w e r e t h r e e p a r tn e r s .

One, being

L a x m i G o e l – t h e I n d i a n b u s i n e s s m a n . T h e n t h e G u p t a f a m ily a n d t h e
t h ir d w a s D u d u z a n e . I w a s t o l d a t th a t t i m e t h a t e a c h o f th e m o w n e d
a b o u t o n e th ir d o f t h e s h a r e s i n t h e c o m p a n y a n d th a t th e s e w e r e t h e
t h r e e e n t i ti e s th a t o w n e d t h e n e w s s ta t io n t h a t I w a s s e t ti n g u p .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
made

the

a ll e g a t i o n

the

Ye s .

Commission

had

Now because you have
undertaken

i ts

own

in v e s t i g a t io n s . I w o u l d l ik e t o r e fe r y o u – M r C h a ir m a n m a y I r e f e r y o u
n o w to E X H I B I T C C 1 C w h ic h is a ls o o n e o f t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n f il e s a n d i t
20

is w r i t te n a d d it i o n a l in f o r m a t io n .

Mr S u n d a r a m c o u l d y o u h a v e a l o o k

at that?
CHAIRPERSON : What page?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

C o u ld y o u tu r n to p a g e 3 0

M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : 3-0?

Page 39 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 3 - 0 t h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M a y b e j u s t t o id e n ti fy th e
d o c u m e n t p r o p e r ly m i g h t w a n t t o j u s t r e fe r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o p a g e –
s o r r y – t h e r e is a s t a m p fr o m t h e c o m p a n y. T h e s e a r e f in a n c ia l r e c o r d s
– f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n t s o f I n f i n i ty M e d i a w h ic h w e r e r e c e i v e d , s u b m i t te d
t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n b y K P M G . I f I m a y r e f e r th e C h a i r p e r s o n t o p a g e 7
ju s t to i d e n t if y t h e c o m p a n y t h a t a c t u a l ly c o n d u c t e d t h e a u d i t . P a g e 7
M r C h a ir m a n o f t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t .
10

K P M G i s w r it t e n t h e r e a n d i t

s h o w s i n d e p e n d e n t a u d it o r ’s r e p o r t – p a g e 7 .
CHAIRPERSON : Hang on a second.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w h a t is t h e p a g e n u m b e r …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P a g e 7 .
CHAIRPERSON : Of the whole exhibit?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h e e x h i b it is C C 1 C a n d t h e n

p a g e n u m b e r w o u ld b e a d d in f o 0 - 0 - 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo u r …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 0 - 0 - 7 .
20

CHAIRPERSON : 0-0-7?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: 0-0-7?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 0 - 0 - 7 M r C h a ir m a n , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y, y e s I h a v e g o t th a t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . I j u s t – ju s t t o

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
id e n t i fy th e d o c u m e n t p r o p e r ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I w o u ld lik e th e C h a i r p e r s o n t o
h a v e a l o o k a t t h e l e ft h a n d c o r n e r o f t h e – i t i s K P M G . S o t h e s e a r e
t h e a u d it o r s t h a t s u b m i tt e d t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e C o m m i s s io n . N o w i f
we turn then …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it is w r i t t e n in d e p e n d e n t a u d i t o r ’s r e p o r t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A u d i t o r ’s r e p o r t t h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th e r e a d a t e t o i t?
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h e r e is a d a t e . Mr C h a ir m a n i f
y o u t u r n to p a g e 8 …
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

P a g e 8 h a s Mr W e s s e l s w h o

s ig n e d i t – C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

R e g is te r e d A u d i t o r D ir e c to r

14 August 2015.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u a n d th e n i f y o u m a y
20

now turn to page 30.
CHAIRPERSON : Hang on one second.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Oh I beg your pardon.

Oh,

s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON :

O n - o n th e f a c e o f i t d o e s i t t e ll w h a t c o m p a n y i t

r e l a t e s to ?

Page 41 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I t d o e s M r C h a ir.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Is i t a d d r e s s e d to t h e s h a r e h o l d e r s o f I n fi n i t y

Media …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I n f in it y M e d i a …
CHAIRPERSON : Network.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o p r i e t a r y L i m i t e d ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n a t p a g e 3 0
w e h a v e a s a h e a d i n g th e r e “ I n fi n i t y M e d i a N e t w o r k s Pr o p r i e t a r y
L i m i t e d ” a n d t h e n i t h a s n o t e s t o t h e f i n a n c ia l s t a t e m e n t s b u t p a r a g r a p h
2 0 is w h e r e I w o u l d li k e t o d r a w th e a t t e n ti o n o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o . . .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : a n d t h e w i tn e s s ’ a t t e n t io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Mr Sundaram

if

you

read

paragraph 20 you see the heading there is written what?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : “ R e l a t e d P a r ty Tr a n s a c t io n s ” .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n y o u h a v e …
CHAIRPERSON :

I d e n t i ty I t h i n k – I d e n t it y o f r e la t e d p a r t ie s .

Is t h a t

r ig h t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

M r C h a ir m a n . I j u s t w a n t t o r e a d th a t l in e .

Page 42 of 225

That

is

on

20.1,

yes

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o h “ R e la t e d P a r ty Tr a n s a c ti o n s ” , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : No, no that is fine, yes.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d li n e h a s

got a number of shares. Do you see that?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : N u m b e r o f s h a r e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n w e h a v e a
10

p e r c e n t a g e o f h o l d i n g . D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n b e l o w th a t i n 2 0 . 1 y o u
h a v e “ I d e n t i ty o f R e l a t e d P a r ti e s ” ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

T h e r e is r e l a t e d p a r ti e s

t h e r e a n d t h e n w e h a v e – I w o u ld j u s t li k e t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t io n t o
E s s e l M e d i a . Yo u s e e t h a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
20

A n d t h e n Es s e l M e d i a h a s -

w h a t i s t h e n u m b e r o f s h a r e s th a t i t h o l d s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : 3 5 p e r c e n t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

35 percent and then you have

g o t ( in d is ti n c t) P r o p r ie t a r y L i m i t e d t h a t h o l d s ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 9 percent.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

and you have got – sorry – I

Page 43 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
s k i p p e d O a k b a y. O a k b a y I n v e s t m e n t P r o p r ie t a r y – r i g h t t h e fi r s t o n e . I
beg your pardon.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t i s 3 5 p e r c e n t a s w e ll .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t i s 3 5 p e r c e n t a n d t h e n y o u
h a v e g o t t h e n e x t o n e th e l a s t o n e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J a ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n , h a n g o n M s N o r ma n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s d o i t …
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : W e s t a r t f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e p r o p e r s e q u e n c e , j a .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k e e p o n s k i p p i n g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I s k ip p e d – I s k ip p e d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O k a y.

L e t u s s t a r t fr o m t h e

b e g in n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 2 0 . 1 w e h a v e g o t t h e r e “ I d e n t i ty
20

o f R e l a t e d P a r t ie s ” a lr ig h t d o y o u s e e th a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n fo ll o w i n g th a t i s t h e

c o m p a n y ’s s h a r e c a p i t a l a s h e l d b y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n th e f ir s t c o m p a n y

Page 44 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
y o u h a v e th e r e i s O a k b a y I n v e s t m e n ts Pr o p r i e t a r y L i m i t e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d w h a t is t h e s h a r e h o ld in g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : 3 5 p e r c e n t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n i t is fo ll o w e d b y

Essel Media …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d w h a t is t h e s h a r e h o ld in g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : 3 5 p e r c e n t. T h is is L a x m i G o e l ’s c o m p a n y.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d th e n y o u w e h a v e

( in d is ti n c t) P r o p r ie t a r y L i m i t e d a n d w h a t is th e s h a r e h o l d in g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 9 percent.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n y o u h a v e M a b e n g e la

I n v e s t m e n t s Pr o p r i e ta r y L i m i te d a n d w h a t i s t h e s h a r e h o ld i n g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : 2 1 p e r c e n t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 2 1 p e r c e n t. N o w th a t b e c a u s e
w e h a v e t o s a ti s f y o u r s e lv e s th a t i f y o u p la c e t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n i t i s i n
f a c t - b e c a u s e y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h a t i t w a s Mr D u d u z a n e Z u m a ’s
c o m p a n y. T h e n th e C o m m i s s io n l o o k e d a t t h e in f o r m a t io n th a t is k e p t
20

b y C I P R O w i th in t h e c o u n tr y. I f I m a y j u s t a s k th e C h a i r p e r s o n to t u r n
t o p a g e – o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e – i f I m a y j u s t g iv e y o u t h e p a g e w h e r e
M a b e n g e l a I n v e s t m e n ts i s d e a l t w i th . S o r r y – m a y b e b e f o r e w e d o th a t
M R C h a ir m a n ju s t f o r s e q u e n c e s a k e a t p a g e 0 - 6 - 8 o f th e s a m e
d o c u m e n t . Yo u w i ll fi n d t h a t t h a t p a g e is f r o m C S I C o m p a n y Tr a c e a n d
t h e n i t h a s g o t t h e n a m e o f th e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s b e e n s e a r c h e d th e r e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
is I n fi n it y M e d i a N e t w o r k s . D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O n th e s a m e d o c u m e n t a n d

t h e n y o u w il l s e e th a t – I ju s t w a n t y o u to i d e n ti f y w h e t h e r t h e M r G o e l
t h a t y o u t a l k a b o u t i s – i s l is t e d o n t h e r e o r is t h e r e a n o th e r G o e l
b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e t w o d i ffe r e n t s p e ll i n g s . Yo u h a v e g o t Ar p it G o e l a n d
t h e n t h e t h ir d n a m e y o u h a v e g o t L a x m i G o e l w h i c h o n e a r e y o u
r e fe r r i n g t o ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

L a x m i N a r a i n G o e l i s th e f u l l n a m e o f

L a x m i G o e l.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : L a x mi G o e l . S o …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d Ar p i t G o e l i s h is s o n . T h e r e a r e tw i n s .
S o o n e o f t h e t w i n s is Ar p i t G o e l .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d y o u h a v e a l is t o f

n a m e s t h e r e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e D ir e c t o r s a n d t h o s e w h o
s u b s e q u e n t ly r e s ig n e d fr o m t h a t c o m p a n y. Yo u s e e t h a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u s a i d A r p i t G o e l – M r A r p i t G o e l i s t h e s o n o f

Laxmi Narain Goel. Is that right?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I s e e th a t …

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th e s p e ll in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s p e l li n g is d i ff e r e n t . Ar p it ’s s p e ll in g - in t e r m s o f
t h e s u r n a m e is – G - O - E- L a n d …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : G - O
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o t h e r is G - O - Y- A - L . D o y o u k n o w … ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Yo u s e e b e c a u s e in I n d i a t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n
s u r n a m e s lik e G o e l t h e y a r e s p e lt d i ffe r e n t ly b u t a ll o f th e m a r e t h e
s a m e t h i n g – y o u k n o w. I t is t h e s a m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d e v e r y b o d y k n o w s it i s t h e s a m e t h i n g ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a lr i g h t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I t is a c a s t e s u r n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Th e n y o u

h a v e g o t a lis t o f a ll t h o s e D ir e c t o r s . Yo u m i g h t w a n t t o j u s t m e n ti o n
t h o s e n a m e s p l e a s e f o r th e r e c o r d .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
Laxmi Narain Goel,

Ar p i t G o e l ,

Atul Kumar Gupta,

C h r i s t i a a n ( in d i s ti n c t) ,

Va r u n G u p t a ,

Nazeem Howa,

Z a m a s w a z i M a n d e l a , M z w a n e le …
20

CHAIRPERSON : Mzwanele …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : M z w a n e l e …
CHAIRPERSON : Mzwanele Jimmy Manyi.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Mzwanele Manyi
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Fu d u s a n e l ( ? ) M o s a m a n i ( ? ) , G a r y N a i d o o

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
a n d M o e g s i e n W i ll ia m s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w a n d t h e n i f I ta k e y o u
t h r o u g h t o p a g e 0 - 7 - 6 o r j u s t – ju s t t o c o m p l e te t h a t p a r a g r a p h .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Yo u s e e t h a t t h e r e i s D i r e c t o r

s t a tu s n e x t to t h e n a m e s t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d . Th e r e is I D n u m b e r,
D ir e c t o r s t a tu s a n d a p p o in t m e n t d a t e o f t h o s e p e r s o n s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

O k a y a n d t h e n i f y o u tu r n to

p a g e 0 - 7 - 6 . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n M r C h a ir m a n t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON :

H a v i n g r e a d t h o s e n a m e s h e s h o u ld s a y a n y t h i n g

a b o u t t h e s t a t u s – th e D ir e c to r s t a tu s – s o m e – s o m e o r a ll s e e m t o
have resigned.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , I w a n t e d t o t a k e h i m , le t

m e t a k e h i m to p a g e 5 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t ’s fi n e .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Mr S u n d a r a m I a m
20

s o s o r r y I d i d n o t a s k w h e t h e r w e w il l t a k e t h e b r e a k a t e l e v e n o r
quarter past elev en?
C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s q u a r t e r p a s t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I t ’s q u a r te r p a s t e l e v e n , th a n k s .
I f I t a k e y o u th e n t o p a g e – s o r r y p a g e 3 9 b e c a u s e t h a t ’s w h e r e th e
d a t e s f o r a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d r e s ig n a ti o n i s a c o m p l e te li s t o f a ll th e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
p e r s o n s t h a t y o u ’v e r e a d , p a g e 3 9 o f t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t . Yo u w il l s e e
– i f y o u t a k e t h e f ir s t p e r s o n c o u l d y o u j u s t r e a d M r C h r i s ti a n G o u w s , i t
h a s h is I D n u m b e r, y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t o r e a d t h a t b u t h e ’s g o t t h e d a t e o f
a p p o i n t m e n t a n d t h e d a te o f h is r e s ig n a t i o n , d o y o u s e e th a t?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s c o u l d y o u j u s t , b r i e f ly, w i th
e a c h a n d e v e r y p e r s o n j u s t t h e d a te o f a p p o i n t m e n t a n d d a t e o f
r e s ig n a ti o n .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

T h e d a t e o f a p p o i n t m e n t is th e 9 t h o f

F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 a n d th e d a te o f r e s ig n a t i o n is a ls o t h e 9 t h o f Fe b r u a r y
2 0 11 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Beg your pardon, sorry the

t e c h n ic ia n s a r e i n d ic a ti n g t h a t t h e r e is a s l ig h t p r o b l e m .
CHAIRPERSON :

O h o k a y, s h a ll w e t a k e a …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Maybe the tea adjournment

now?
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l l e t ’s … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Is i t b a c k o n – o h t h e y s a y i t’s
back on.
20

CHAIRPERSON :

Is it back on?

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u , y e s
you may continue.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s s o t h e a p p o in t m e n t w a s o n th e 9 t h o f

F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 h e r e s i g n e d o n t h e s a m e d a te a s w e l l w h i c h is t h e 9 t h o f
F e b r u a r y … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : M e n t i o n w h o t h a t is ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

C h r is t ia n G o u w s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s i t ’s G o u w s .

H e w a s a p p o i n t e d o n t h e 9 t h o f Fe b r u a r y 2 0 11 a n d

a p p e a r s to h a v e r e s i g n e d o n t h e s a m e d a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Is that right?

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
CHAIRPERSON :
10

Ye s .

A c c o r d i n g t o th is d o c u m e n t , j a .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u a n d th e n t h e

next person?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Is Wa r r e n G u p ta .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

Appointed on the 1st of October 20 12 and

r e s ig n e d o n th e 11 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . N a z e e m H o w a 1 s t o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 ,
a p p o i n t e d , r e s i g n e d o n t h e 1 5 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 6 . ( I n d is ti n c t) a p p o in t e d
o n 1 / 0 7 / 2 0 1 3 r e s i g n e d 0 5 / 0 4 /2 0 1 6 ( i n d i s t in c t ) a p p o i n te d 0 1 /0 7 / 2 0 1 3
r e s ig n e d

on

th e

0 5 / 0 4 / 2 0 1 6 , ( in d is ti n c t)

K umar

G u p ta

a p p o in t e d

0 1 / 0 7 / 2 0 1 3 r e s i g n e d 0 7 / 0 4 / 2 0 1 6 , M o e g s ie n W i lli a m s a p p o in t e d 0 7 /
20

04/2016 resigned 28 January 2018, Gary Naidoo, appointed 07/04/2016
r e s ig n e d 0 8 / 1 0 /2 0 1 8 .

( I n d is t in c t) w a s a p p o i n t e d o n t h e 1 4 t h o f

November 2016 and resigned on the 8 th of October 2018 and then
( in d is ti n c t) h e w a s a p p o i n t e d o n t h e 1 s t o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 7 r e s i g n e d o n
t h e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 8 . Za m a s w a z i M a n d e la a p p o i n te d o n t h e 2 n d –
0 2 / 0 2 0 2 0 1 8 a n d r e s ig n e d o n 0 8 /1 0 / 2 0 1 8 .

Page 50 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 0 5 7 p l e a s e .

T h a n k y o u , a n d if I m a y th e n

T h i s is a d e s c r ip t io n o n t h e c o m p a n y

M a b e n g e l a I n v e s t m e n ts y o u r e c a ll t h e c o m p a n y th a t y o u m e n t io n e d
fr o m t h e fi n a n c i a l s h o ld in g th e 2 1 % s t a k e i n I n fi n it y M e d i a .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n I w o u l d l ik e y o u to

ju s t r e a d t h e d ir e c t o r s – y o u ’v e g o t a c ti v e D ir e c t o r s a n d y o u ’ v e g o t
r e s ig n e d D ir e c to r s a t th e b o t t o m o f t h a t.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

O k a y t h is is p a g e n u m b e r … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P a g e 0 5 7 .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

057?

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t’s c o r r e c t.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O k a y s o t h e a c ti v e D ir e c t o r s a r e R e m o n a

G o r d o n a p p o i n te d o n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : R e m o n a G o v e n d e r ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Govender ja.

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A n d a p p o in t e d o n t h e 7 t h o f A p r il 2 0 1 6 a n d

D u d u z a n i J o s e p h … ( in t e r v e n t i o n )
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I t ’s n o t D u d u z a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t ’s n o t D u d u z a , t h a t o n e .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

S o r r y D u d u z a J o s e p h M a ts a li i s a p p o in t e d

o n 2 5 / 0 8 /2 0 1 8 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

2016.

Page 51 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

2016 sorry 25/08/2016.

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u ’ v e g o t
r e s ig n e d D ir e c to r s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d u n d e r th a t c o l u m n w h o a r e
t h e D ir e c t o r s n a m e s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Th e D ir e c t o r s n a m e s th e r e a r e A b d u l

( in d is ti n c t) J a ffe r, w h o ’s o n 1 7 / 0 6 / 2 0 0 8 a n d t h e r e ‘s n o d a t e o f
r e s ig n a ti o n ,
10

r e s ig n e d

on

Rajesh

Kumar

01/03/2016,

Gupta

a p p o i n te d

Duduzane

Zuma

was

on

0 8 /0 8 / 2 0 0 8

a p p o in t e d

08/07/2008

r e s ig n e d 0 7 // 4 / 2 0 1 6 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n , l a s t ly
le t m e j u s t ta k e y o u t o th e s a m e d o c u m e n t , s a m e p a g e , w h a t y o u ’ v e
ju s t r e a d , i f y o u g o t o p a g e 0 8 4 t h a t a ls o d e a l s w it h d ir e c t o r s h i p s in –
that were conducted on Mr Duduzane Zum a and then you have that 084
you see company name there?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Company nam e, yes.

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : W h a t is t h a t n a m e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
20

M a b e n g e l a I n v e s t m e n ts .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n y o u s e e th e

a p p o i n t m e n t d a t e – i t d e a ls w i t h , l e t m e j u s t t a k e y o u t o t h e f ir s t p a g e –
s o r r y m a y b e I s h o u l d ju s t t a k e y o u – c o u l d y o u j u s t g o b a c k I b e g y o u r
p a r d o n , p a g e 0 7 7 , t h a n k y o u a lr i g h t , o n t o p t h e r e w h a t is t h e C I P C
D ir e c t o r th a t ’s w r i t t e n t h e r e , r ig h t o n t o p ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Duduzane Zuma.

Page 52 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n y o u f i n d in

b u s i n e s s – u n d e r b u s in e s s t h e r e ’s a c o m p a n y n a m e .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d th e n d o y o u s e e M a b e n g e l a
there?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s i t is t h e r e a t n u m b e r f iv e .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h e n u m b e r fi v e a n d t h e n a t t h e
r ig h t- h a n d , t h e D ir e c t o r s ta t u s .
MR RAJESH SUND ARAM:
10

Resigned.

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
that

Ye s a n d t h e n t h a t r e s i g n e d –

p o s i t io n i s r e fl e c t e d a t p a g e 0 8 4 o k a y a n d t h e n y o u h a v e

M a b e n g e l a In v e s t m e n ts t h e r e .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n y o u h a v e a p p o i n t m e n t
date.
MR

RAJESH

SUNDARAM:

Appointment

date, yes

w h ic h

is

08/07/2008.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n t h e r e s i g n a ti o n d a t e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
20

07/04/2016.

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u . S o t h e n g o i n g

b a c k t h e n t o y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t – w o u ld y o u t h e n b e s a t is f ie d t h a t t h e
3 0 % t h a t y o u h a d w o u l d a c t u a ll y b e th e 2 1 % a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t w e ’v e –
t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e ’ v e g o n e th r o u g h ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u w o u ld a c c e p t t h a t .

Page 53 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s b a s e d o n t h e s e d o c u m e n t s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u , t h e n w h a t i s i t
t h a t m a d e y o u s a y t h a t y o u h e a r d t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s s o n w a s in v o lv e d
in th is , w a s th e r e a n y i n v o lv e m e n t o f e i t h e r t h e P r e s i d e n t o r – fo r m e r
P r e s i d e n t o r h is s o n th a t m a d e y o u m a k e t h is s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u m a k e
in p a r a g r a p h f o u r ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll w h a t I fo u n d d u r i n g m y e x p e r ie n c e

h e r e w a s t h a t, a l th o u g h D u d u z a n e Z u m a w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s a
d ir e c t o r, w a s a s h a r e h o ld e r in t h e c o m p a n y i t w a s Pr e s id e n t Z u m a w h o
10

w a s m o r e a c ti v e ly i n v o lv e d i n te r m s o f t h e m e e ti n g s t h a t I h a d w e r e
m o r e l ik e r e v i e w b y s h a r e h o l d e r s o n t h e s t a t u s p r o j e c t , o n t h e
t e l e v i s i o n p r o je c t, y o u k n o w. S o t h e r e p o r t s t h a t t h e y g a v e t h e r e d u r in g
those

m e e t in g s

were

l ik e

s hareholder

m e e ti n g s .

D u d u z a n e ’s

in v o lv e m e n t i n t h e s e tt i n g o f th e s t a ti o n o r t h e r u n n i n g o f t h e b u s i n e s s
w a s m i n i m a l I w o u l d s a y, y o u n o w, t h e r e w a s j u s t o n e m e e t in g w h e r e h e
h a d a s m a l l a p p e a r a n c e a n d t h e r e w a s n o t m u c h i n te r ms o f b u s in e s s
t h a t h e c o n tr i b u t e d t o t h a t m e e ti n g b u t P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s v e r y m u c h
in v o lv e d i n th e r u n n i n g o f t h e s t a t i o n , i n th e s e n s e t h a t t h e r e w e r e
r e g u la r r e v i e w m e e t in g s w h e r e ( in d is ti n c t) w a s g iv e n t o h i m a n d h e
20

w o u ld g iv e fe e d b a c k t o t h a t a s w e ll .

A ls o c o n f id e n ti a l i n f o r m a t i o n

w h ic h , a s s o m e b o d y w h o s e t u p m a n y s t a ti o n s a c r o s s ( i n d is t in c t ) w o u l d
k n o w, y o u k n o w t h e r e ’s s o m e c o n fi d e n ti a l in f o r m a ti o n w h ic h y o u d o n ’ t
r e a l ly g i v e o u t s o e a r l y in th e p r o je c t .

Th a t w a s d is c l o s e d to th e

President, now I would have thought as somebo dy when I knew – when
I d i d n o t k n o w o f t h e P r e s id e n t ’s s o n ’s i n v o lv e m e n t in t h is , I th o u g h t i t

Page 54 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w a s a li t t le f u n n y th a t y o u ’ d h a n d o u t a d o c u m e n t w h ic h h a d a ll t h e
s e c r e ts o f t h e p r o j e c t t o a p u b li c o ffi c e a n d le a v e a p r e s e n t a ti o n t h e r e
w i t h a ll t h o s e d e t a i ls , w i t h s o m a n y p e o p l e i n h i s o ff ic e w o u ld h a v e
a c c e s s t o t h a t a n d it c o u l d , c le a r ly, h a v e l e a k e d b u t t h e y d i d n ’ t r e a l ly
s e e m to c a r e , t h e y tr u s t e d th e m 1 0 0 % a n d i t w a s o n l y l a t e r o n t h a t I
r e a l is e d t h a t i t ’s b e c a u s e h e h a d a m u c h b i g g e r in t e r e s t i n th e s t a t i o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s y o u d e a l w i th t h e s e

m e e ti n g s i n d e t a i l i n y o u r s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a te m e n t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

M a y b e i t ’s a p p r o p r i a t e t h a t

y o u j u m p fr o m w h a t y o u ’ v e s ta t e d th e r e t o g o – s o y o u c a n d e a l w i t h
t h e m e e ti n g s o n e b y o n e a s y o u ’v e d o n e in y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y
s t a te m e n t .

M a y I r e f e r th e C h a ir p e r s o n t o C C 1 B a t p a g e 2 o f th e

s u p p l e m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t .

T h a n k y o u , y o u d e a l w it h t h e – w h e n w a s

t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g w h e r e y o u s a y th e P r e s i d e n t w a s p r e s e n t , w h e r e w a s
t h e m e e t in g a n d w h o w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e ti n g a n d d e a l w i t h t h e
d is c u s s io n s a t t h a t m e e t in g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O k a y th e fir s t m e e t in g o f th e G u p t a ’s w a s

o n t h e 2 2 n d o f J u n e 2 0 1 3 , th e m e e ti n g to o k p l a c e a t h i s r e s i d e n c e i n
20

P r e t o r i a a n d t h e m e e t in g w a s a t t e n d e d b y ( in d is ti n c t) fr o m t h e N e w A g e
N e w s p a p e r a s w e ll a s m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p ta f a m il y, t o b e v e r y s p e c i fi c
t h e r e w a s A ja y G u p ta , t h e r e w a s ( in d is ti n c t) G u p t a t h e r e , t h e r e w a s
m o e g s i e m W i ll ia m s w h o w a s t h e h e a d o f t h e d e l e g a t i o n i n t e r ms o f th e
p r o t o c o l, th e w a s N a z e e m H o w a , t h e r e w a s ( i n d is ti n c t) w h o w a s th e
h e a d o f b u s i n e s s fr o m ( i n d is ti n c t) in t h i s p r o j e c t a n d t h e r e w a s m e w h o

Page 55 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
was part of the project.

T h is e n t ir e m e e ti n g w a s c o o r d i n a t e d b y M r

( in d is ti n c t) a n d h e t o o w a s p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g a n d fr o m – th e P r e s i d e n t
w a s t h e r e o n h is o w n , t h e r e w e r e n o o t h e r a i d s t h a t w e r e p r e s e n t
d u r i n g t h e s e m e e t in g s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s j u s t te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ,

h o w d i d y o u g e t t o b e i n v i t e d t o th is m e e ti n g , j u s t s ta r t fr o m t h e
b e g in n i n g , c a l le d y o u t o s a y y o u m u s t a t te n d a n d h o w d id y o u g e t t h e r e
t o t h e P r e s id e n t ’s o ffi c i a l r e s i d e n c e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

O k a y s o t h i s w a s – I t h in k t h is m e e ti n g

t o o k p l a c e j u s t a f e w d a y s a f te r I a r r i v e d in S o u th A fr ic a . S o a b o u t a
w e e k b e f o r e th is m e e ti n g , I w a s t o ld b y M r ( i n d is t in c t) G u p t a t h a t w e
w o u ld h a v e a m e e t in g w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t , a t t h a t ti m e I d i d n o t k n o w
t h a t M r D u d u z a n e w a s p a r t o f th is – y o u k n o w t h a t h e w a s a
s h a r e h o l d e r in t h e c o m p a n y.

I w a s t o l d t h a t i t ’s a f o r m a l m e e t in g w e

w o u ld m e e t t h e m a n d t e l l t h e m a b o u t t h e p r o j e c t . S o I t h o u g h t it w a s
p r o b a b ly a f o r m a l i n tr o d u c ti o n , y o u k n o w w it h th e h e a d o f S t a t e a b o u t a
n e w m e d ia v e n t u r e th a t ’s c o m i n g u p j u s t t o b r i e f h i m a b o u t w h a t i t w a s .
H e a s k e d m e t o p r e p a r e a p r e s e n t a ti o n , a t e x t p r e s e n ta t io n w i t h , y o u
k n o w, w h a t w e r e t h e d i ff e r e n ti a ti n g f e a t u r e s o f t h e c o n t e n t t h a t w e
20

p r o p o s e d , w h a t w e r e – h o w w e r e w e d i ff e r e n t i n te r ms o f t h e
t e c h n o l o g y, h o w w o u l d w e r e w e d i ff e r e n t i n t e r m s o f t h e s t u d i o s e t - u p
a n d d e s ig n a n d a ll t h e o t h e r f e a t u r e s o f t h e t e le v is io n s ta t io n .

So I

p r e p a r e d t h is , I w a s t o ld t o s e n d t h e d e t a i l s t o M r A s k r a m w h o w a s p a r t
– I t h i n k h e w a s t h e c r e a t iv e d ir e c to r a t t h e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r, I w a s
a s k e d t o s e n d h i m t h e d e ta il s a n d th e y s a i d t h a t h e ’s g o in g to d r e s s - u p

Page 56 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n i n te r m s o f p u t ti n g i t i n t o a s p ir a l b i n d , c u t ti n g o u t
p ic t u r e s fr o m th e i n t e r n e t a n d k i n d o f d r e s s i n g i t u p in t h e s e n s e a n d
A s k r a m w a s to ld t o m a k e t h r e e c o p ie s o f t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n . O n e w h i c h I
w o u ld h a v e i n m y h a n d o n e w h i c h M r ( i n d i s t in c t ) G u p t a a n d A j a y G u p t a
w o u ld h a v e a n d a c o p y o f i t w o u l d b e p r e s e n te d to P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a t
h is r e s i d e n c e . S o t h e s e d o c u m e n ts , I g a v e o u t t h e i n f o r m a t io n it w a s ,
y o u k n o w m a d e i n to a P o w e r P o in t p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d p r in t - o u ts w e r e
t a k e n , s p ir a l b o u n d w it h a p l a s t ic s h e e t o n to p a n d i t l o o k e d l ik e a
p r o p e r b u s i n e s s p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d w e k e p t it r e a d y b u t , y o u k n o w,
10

e v e r y d a y I w o u l d t h i n k , y o u k n o w, w e w o u ld ( in d is ti n c t) p r e p a r e i t ,
s o l i d ly p r e p a r e it , ( i n d is t in c t) w e w e r e t o l d t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s
tr a v e l li n g o u ts i d e o f t h e s p a c e a n d t h a t h e w o u ld c o m e b a c k . H e c a m e
b a c k o n a S a t u r d a y a n d o n t h e 2 2 n d o f J u n e , w h ic h w a s a S u n d a y, w e
w e r e g iv e n ti m e a t 9 h 3 0 I g o t a c a ll o n t h e S a t u r d a y e v e n in g fr o m M r
( in d is ti n c t) G u p t a , v e r y la t e a t n i g h t w h e n w e h a d c o m e b a c k fr o m w o r k
a n d h e t o l d m e t h a t th e r e ’s a m e e t in g t h a t’s g o in g t o t a k e p la c e a t 9 h 3 0
t o m o r r o w h e s a i d t h a t s o m e b o d y w o u l d p ic k u s u p fr o m t h e M i d r a n d
o ffic e , th a t w e s h o u ld b e t h e r e b r i g h t a n d e a r ly a n d r e a c h th e
P r e s i d e n t ’s r e s i d e n c e . I w a s a ls o t o ld th a t t h e o th e r s w o u ld fo ll o w i n a

20

c o n v o y i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r w a r d s . A t t h a t t i m e – y o u k n o w t h e n e x t d a y
A a r o n a n d I – w e w e r e s t a y i n g – w e w e r e s h a r in g a n a p a r t m e n t i n
Midrand

so

we

went

s t r a ig h t

to

the

o ffic e ,

got copies

of

th e

p r e s e n t a ti o n w i t h u s w e w e r e w a i t in g a n d A s l a m ? t o ld u s t h a t h e w o u l d
g iv e o u r t e l e p h o n e n u m b e r – o u r c a r n u m b e r to t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e
( in d is ti n c t) s o t h a t w e w o u l d n ’ t h a v e a n y i s s u e g e tt i n g in .

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It was a

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
g u a r d fr o m t h e fl e e t o f t h e G u p ta f a m ily a n d w e g a v e – A s la m g a v e t h a t
number

to

( in d is ti n c t)

who

then

gave

it

to

the

P r e s i d e n t ’s

o ffic e … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

S o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n it ’s q u a r t e r

p a s t e le v e n , t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s t h a n k y o u w e ’l l t a k e t h e s h o r t a d jo u r n m e n t , t e a

a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t e l e v e n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d Ms N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M r S u n d a r a m y e s
w o u ld y o u t h e n p r o c e e d .

Yo u g o t a c a l l a n d y o u w e r e t o l d t h a t

s o m e o n e w a s g o in g to f e tc h y o u t o t h e m e e ti n g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s c o u ld y o u c o n ti n u e fr o m

there?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S w i tc h o n y o u r m ic r o p h o n e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O h s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
c o m e a n d f e tc h m e .

Ye s .

S o I w a s to l d t h a t s o m e b o d y w o u l d

W e w o u l d a s k e d t o r e p o r t a t t h e M i d r a n d o ff ic e

w h ic h w e d i d i n t h e m o r n i n g . S o – a t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t ti m e t h e r e w a s a
d r i v e r f r o m t h e G u p t a f a m ily ’s f l e e t o f c a r s t h a t h a d c o m e i n th e r e . S o I
s t il l r e m e m b e r t h a t h e g r e e t e d u s w it h s o m e th i n g t h a t p e o p l e th a t i n
r u r a l In d i a g r e e t e a c h o th e r w i th y o u k n o w s o w e g o t a li t tl e s u r p r is e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
b e c a u s e h e r e is a w h i te S o u th A f r i c a n p e r s o n a n d h e is g r e e ti n g u s i n a
way that they would in rural India. So…
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : H o w d id h e g r e e t y o u ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: He said Ram, ram.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o R a m r a m .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o – a n d t h e n h e h a d o n t h is – o n t h e c a r
s t e r e o h e h a d a l o t o f h i n d i m u s ic p la y i n g w h i c h m e a n d – w h i c h A r u n
10

A g g a r w a l a n d I w e d id n o t p a r ti c u la r ly l ik e s o w e a s k e d h i m t o s w i tc h
b a c k t o th e s t a ti o n . O f c o u r s e w e r e a c h e d Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s r e s id e n c e
a h e a d o f ti m e a n d a s w e h a d b e e n t o l d e a r l ie r t h e c a r – th e v e h i c l e
n u m b e r h a d a lr e a d y b e e n g iv e n .

W e w e r e fl a g g e d i n a n d w e d i d n o t

h a v e m u c h d i ff ic u l ty f i n d in g o u r w a y in t o a w a i ti n g r o o m w h e r e w e
f o u n d M s R a s h u J a v la .

O n e t h i n g th a t d i d s tr ik e m e w a s th e r e la t iv e

la c k o f s e c u r i ty b e c a u s e I h a d g o n e t o i n t e r v ie w h e a d s o f s t a te b e f o r e
a n d h a v e c o v e r e d t h e m a t v a r io u s c o u n tr ie s a n d h e r e I f o u n d t h a t t h e –
w e w e r e – t h e r e w a s n o b o d y w h o s o r t o u t p a s s p o r t s o r id e n ti ty d e t a ils
b e f o r e w e w e r e a l lo w e d i n . N o n e o f – t h e b a g s t h a t w e r e b e i n g t a k e n
20

w e r e p u t u n d e r a n x - r a y s c a n n e r.

I m e a n t h e r e is m o r e s e c u r i ty h e r e

t h a t I s e e t h a n t h e r e a t th e P r e s i d e n t ’s r e s i d e n c e . I d o n o t k n o w i f i t
w a s a s p e c i a l c o n s id e r a ti o n i t w a s s in c e w e w e r e p a r t o f t h e G u p ta
d e l e g a ti o n o r i f s e c u r i ty i s g e n e r a l ly n o t r e q u ir e d t o b e v e r y h ig h i n
S o u th A f r i c a n a s i t is i n S o u t h As ia w h e r e a b a s i c a ll y a r e p o r t e r h a d
s e e n t h is .

A ls o w e w e r e u s h e r e d in t o t h is r o o m to th e r i g h t o f t h e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e s id e n c e – o f t h e e n tr a n c e o f th e b u il d i n g a n d t h a t w a s n o t a g e n e r a l
w a i ti n g a r e a b e c a u s e I s a w th e o n ly – t h e d e l e g a ti o n t h a t h a d c o m e
w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m il y w a s t o u s e th a t r o o m .

W h e n w e e n t e r e d th a t

r o o m Ar u n A g g a r w a l G o e l a n d I w e f o u n d As h u C h a w la a l r e a d y s it t in g
t h e r e w i th h i s p h o n e p l u g g e d i n t o th e w a l l s o c k e t y o u k n o w j u s t
c h a r g i n g a n d h e s e e m e d a l it t le a n x i o u s a n d h e w a s a n s w e r i n g a l l t h e
q u e s t io n s t h a t w e w e r e a s k i n g h i m . T h i s i s t h e fi r s t ti m e I w a s m e e ti n g
A s h u C h a w l a a n d h e a r d a l o t a b o u t h i m . A b o u t h e is t h e p o in t p e r s o n
a t th e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e . A n y t h i n g – a n y w o r k t h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e i n
10

t e r m s o f v is a s o r a n y o f t h a t h e w a s t h e g u y w h o w o u l d s p e e d th i n g s u p
f o r t h e G u p ta s .

W e w e r e a l s o to l d t h a t M o e g s i e n W il li a m s , N a z e e m

H o w a , A t u l a n d Aj a y G u p ta w o u ld b e tr a v e l in g i n a c o n v o y a n d w o u l d
r e a c h s o m e t i m e a f t e r w e h a d r e a c h e d f o r th a t m e e t in g .

A n d tr u e

e n o u g h t h e y c a m e i n a f e w m i n u t e s l a te r a n d A t u l G u p t a w a s fr o m t h e
v e r y b e g i n n i n g v e r y i m p a t ie n t a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a n t e d to s ta r t th e
m e e ti n g a n d g e t it o v e r w i th q u i c k ly. Th e P r e s i d e n t o f c o u r s e h a d b e e n
o u t o f Pr e t o r i a f o r a f e w d a y s a n d h e h a d a s e r i e s o f m e e ti n g s . W h e n I
c a m e a n d I r e a lis e d t h a t th e r e w e r e a l o t o f c a r s p a r k e d o u ts i d e s o a
f e w o f t h e m i n i s te r s h a d a l s o c o m e in f o r p e n d i n g w o r k t h a t n e e d e d to
20

b e a d d r e s s e d u r g e n t ly.
c o n d u c t in g m e e t in g s .

And he was in another room we were told
S o A t u l – A ja y G u p ta w o u l d k e e p t e ll in g A s h u

C h a w l a t o g o to t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e a n d t e l l th e m t h a t t h e G u p t a
b r o t h e r s w e r e w a i t in g . A t o n e p o i n t I t h i n k a b o u t h a lf a n h o u r in t o t h e
w a i ti n g t i m e h e g o t v e r y i m p a t i e n t a n d s a i d t h a t y o u k n o w w e c a n n o t b e
w a i ti n g h e r e f o r e v e r y o u k n o w t h e P r e s id e n t c a n n o t m a k e u s w a i t. S o

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
h e a s k e d As h u C h a w l a t o g o a n d t e l l th e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffic e t h a t w e a r e
g o i n g n o w. A s h u C h a w l a c a m e b a c k i n a f e w m i n u t e s a n d h e s a id w e l l
p l e a s e w a i t b e c a u s e th e P r e s i d e n t ’s c o m i n g o u t o f t h e m e e ti n g t h a t h e
is r i g h t n o w a n d h e w il l c o m e h e r e v e r y s h o r tly.

A n d w i t h i n a fe w

m i n u t e s Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a c a m e in t o t h e m e e t in g r o o m .

He was

a p o lo g e tic . H e s a i d h e w a s s o r r y t h a t h e h a d a lo t o f g u e s t s th a t d a y
a n d a l o t o f p e n d i n g w o r k t h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e a lt h o u g h i t w a s
S u n d a y it h a d b e e n a h e a v y m o r n i n g f o r h i m . A n d h e c a m e i n a n d s a t
down.
10

S o t h e r e w a s a c e r t a i n p r o t o c o l t h a t w a s f o l lo w e d fo r th e s e

m e e ti n g s y o u k n o w a t h is r e s i d e n c e . Th e P r e s i d e n t s a t o n a p a r t ic u l a r
c h a ir th e n t h e h e a d o f t h e d e le g a ti o n w h a t w a s M o e g s i e n W i ll i a ms s a t
in t h e c h a i r n e x t to h i m .

T h e n N a z e e m H o w a a n d t h e n th e G u p t a

b r o t h e r s w o u l d s it o n a c o u c h o p p o s i t e t h e m a n d t h e n a c r o s s t h e t a b l e
fr o m th e r e i s w h e r e Ar u n A g g a r w a l G o e l a n d I – I s a t fo r t h e s e
m e e ti n g s . S o t h e v e r y f ir s t m e e ti n g s t a r t e d o ff li k e t h i s a n d y o u k n o w
w e f o u n d i t a l i t tl e f u n n y b e c a u s e w h e n w e w e r e t o l d th a t w e w il l g o to
t h e Pr e s id e n t’s h o u s e a n d h a v e a m e e ti n g f o r t w o h o u r s Ar u n A g g a r w a l
a n d I w h o h a d c o m i n g fr o m I n d i a w e w e r e a l it t le – w e t h o u g h t i t w a s a
li t tl e f u n n y t h a t t h e h e a d o f s t a t e w o u l d h a v e tw o h o u r s to d e d ic a t e to a
20

n e w m e d i a t e l e v is io n s ta t io n w h ic h is n o t e v e n s t a r t e d y e t a n d w e
t h o u g h t t h a t th e G u p t a – A t u l G u p t a w a s p r o b a b l y e x a g g e r a t in g th a t w e
w o u ld p r o b a b ly g e t fi v e m i n u t e s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d w e w o u l d b e
u s h e r e d o u t.

B u t a t t h e e n d o f t h a t m e e t in g w e w e r e r e a ll y s u r p r is e d

b e c a u s e n o t o n l y d id th e Pr e s id e n t t a k e a v e r y d e t a i le d b r i e fi n g a b o u t
t h e p r o j e c t h e a s k e d u s q u e s t io n s , k e p t a c o p y o f th e r e p o r t w i t h h i m

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
a n d s a i d th a t h e i s g o i n g t o k e e p t h e c o p y, s tu d y i t a n d n e x t t i m e w h e n
w e m e e t h e w o u ld a s k a fe w m o r e q u e s t io n s a n d g i v e a f e w m o r e
s u g g e s t io n s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : J u s t o n t h a t – j u s t o n t h a t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A b o u t it .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : W h a t e x a c tl y d id y o u p r e s e n t t o
t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t a t t h a t m e e ti n g ? Th a t i s w e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e fi r s t
m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

O k a y s o I – w e p r e s e n te d to h i m w h a t w e

w e r e t o l d b y A t u l G u p t a w h i c h is a n o u t l o o k o n h o w t h e s ta t io n w o u ld b e
– y o u k n o w b e c a u s e w e h a d a l r e a d y c o m m is s i o n e d t h e d e s i g n o f t h e
s t u d i o . W e h a d a lr e a d y c o m m i s s io n e d t h e l o g o a n d th e n a m e a n d a ll o f
t h a t . S o t h e l o g o w a s c o m m i s s i o n e d . A ls o a s t a tu s r e p o r t o n h o w t h e
project was headed.

T h e v a r io u s t h i n g s a b o u t p r o c u r e m e n t o f

e q u ip m e n t n o w to th e d e s ig n a n d f a b r ic a ti o n o f t h e s t u d io .

A status

r e p o r t r e a ll y o n h o w t h i n g s w e r e . A ls o h e w a n t e d m e t o p r e p a r e a n o t e
o n h o w t h e c o n t e n t o f t h i s te le v i s i o n w o u l d b e d i ff e r e n t fr o m w h a t
a lr e a d y e x is t s i n S o u t h A f r ic a . S o i n t e r m s o f t h e l o o k a n d f e e l o r th is
s t a ti o n y o u k n o w h o w a r e w e g o i n g t o b e d i ff e r e n t t h e r e ? S o i t w a s i n a
20

s e n s e a r e p o r t w h i c h h a d a ll t h e d e t a i ls a b o u t th e s t a ti o n .

It was a

s t a tu s u p d a t e o n w h e r e t h e – w h e r e t h e p r o j e c t w a s a t . S o m e t h i n g o f a
– o f a s h a r e h o l d e r r e v ie w k i n d o f a p r e s e n t a ti o n m o r e th a n a k i n d o f
p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t y o u w o u l d g iv e t h e h e a d o f s t a te o n a f o r m a l k in d o f a
m e e ti n g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o a t th a t p o i n t th e n a m e o f th e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
s t a ti o n w a s a lr e a d y k n o w n ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I t h a s b e e n d e c i d e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Okay were you present when

t h is d e c i s i o n w a s ta k e n a s to w h a t t h e s t a t io n w a s g o i n g t o b e c a ll e d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

No I was not present when that deci sion

w a s t a k e n b u t I b e l i e v e th e r e w a s a m e e t i n g b e f o r e – t h e f ir s t m e e t in g
b e f o r e th e fi r s t m e e ti n g t h a t I w e n t i n to w h e r e P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a n d t h e
10

G u p t a b r o t h e r s h a d a m e e t in g .

P e r h a p s w it h N a z e e m a n d M o e g s i e n

w h e r e t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d s u g g e s t e d t o th e m t h a t i t s h o u l d b e c a ll e d L ik e
C N N i t s h o u l d b e A N N A fr i c a N e w s N e t w o r k w h e r e th e r e w o u l d b e a n
A fr ic a n p e r s p e c tiv e o f n e w s t o in t e r n a t io n a l n e w s lik e C N N w a s A t l a n t a ,
C e n tr ic p e r s p e c ti v e o f w o r ld n e w s a n A m e r i c a n j o u r n a l is t fr o m C h i n a ,
I n d ia , A fr ic a , te ll in g t h e w o r ld a b o u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g t h e r e . T h is –
t h e i d e a w a s t o h a v e a n A f r i c a n e w s n e t w o r k m u c h o n t h e s a m e li n e s
w h e r e a S o u t h A f r ic a n jo u r n a l is t w o u ld y o u k n o w to s t a r t w i t h w o u l d
r e p o r t o n S o u t h A fr ic a b u t th e id e a w a s t o h a v e a S o u th A fr ic a n
jo u r n a l i s t r e p o r ti n g fr o m a c r o s s th e w o r l d y o u k n o w m u c h li k e w h a t
20

C N N w a s d o in g .

A n d th e – w h e n t h e f i r s t m e e ti n g h a p p e n e d I v e r y

d is t in c tly r e m e m b e r Mr A j a y G u p t a t e l li n g t h e P r e s i d e n t t h a t l o o k S ir w e
c a l li n g i t A N N 7 a n d th is is j u s t li k e y o u s u g g e s t e d . A n d w e p u t ti n g a 7
b e c a u s e A N N w a s a lr e a d y t a k e n s o w e d i d t h e n e x t b e s t t h i n g w e j u s t
p u t a n u m e r ic a t t h e e n d o f it a n d w e fo u n d t h a t t h a t n a m e w a s n o t
t a k e n s o w e d e c id e d t o ta k e t h a t .

And President Zuma seemed to

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
a p p r e c ia t e t h a t a l o t.

A ls o I t h i n k th is is s o m e t h i n g t h a t – t h is i s

s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e y p la y e d a l o t d u r i n g t h e s e m e e t i n g s .

Yo u k n o w

t h e y w o u l d k e e p t e lli n g m e t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t w h e n y o u s p e a k w i t h h i m
s h o u l d fe e l l ik e w h a t e v e r h e h a s s a i d i s – w e l is te n in g t o i t a n d w e a r e
e x e c u ti n g th a t . B u t t h e y w o u ld a ls o s a y t h a t w e w il l lis t e n t o w h a t h e
s a y s a n d i f h e l ik e it w e w i ll e x e c u t e i t if n o t w e w i ll n o t . S o it – s o t h a t
w a s th e s e n s e th a t I w a s g e t ti n g a b o u t h o w t h e y w e r e d e a li n g w i th
P r e s i d e n t Zu m a .

Al s o I g o t a s e n s e o f t h e y h a d a v e r y g o o d r a p p o r t

w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t . Th e y h a d v e r y g o o d t i e s . W h e n w e w e n t in t o t h e s e
10

t h r e e m e e t i n g s t h e r e w e r e – th e r e w a s o c c a s i o n w h e n w e w e r e i n a
v is it i n g r o o m a n d t h e r e w o u l d b e r e l a ti v e s o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t .

His

d a u g h t e r in o n e i n s t a n c e I r e m e m b e r a n d t h e y g r e e te d h i m v e r y – e a c h
o th e r v e r y w a r m ly.

T h e n e e d – t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s s e e m e d to k n o w

e v e r y b o d y in th e f a m il y o n a f ir s t n a m e b a s i s . A l m o s t l ik e t h e y w e r e
f a m ily.

S o th a t is s o m e t h in g th a t I f o u n d in t h e s e m e e t in g .

President Zuma was very warm to them.

A ls o

I w o u l d a ls o I t h i n k

s ig n if ic a n tly s a y t h a t t h e s e m e e ti n g s h a p p e n e d a f t e r th e Wa t e r k l o o f
in c i d e n t .

S o i f a t a l l I h a d a n y d o u b ts i n m y m in d w h e t h e r th a t h a d

s o u r e d r e l a ti o n s h i p s t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d th e
20

G u p t a fa m i ly I w o u l d s a y n o a b s o lu t e l y n o t b e c a u s e t h e w a r m t h w i th
w h ic h t h e y m e t in t h o s e m e e ti n g s t h e r e w a s n o th i n g t h a t w o u l d in d ic a t e
t h a t t h e Wa t e r k l o o f i n c id e n t h a d h a d a n y i m p a c t o n t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t
they shared.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

t h e fi r s t m e e t in g ?

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S o t h e n – s o w e s t il l a t

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h i l e t h e s e d is c u s s i o n s a r e

t a k i n g p la c e w h a t w a s th e e n d r e s u l t o f t h a t m e e ti n g ?

What was

r e s o l v e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
p a r t s y o u k n o w.

W e ll t h e s e m e e t in g s w e r e c u t u p i n t o t w o

T h e fir s t p a r t w a s w h e r e t h e te le v i s i o n t e a m w o u ld

p r e s e n t t o t h e P r e s id e n t t h e s ta t u s o n h o w t h e p r o je c t w a s p r o c e e d i n g .
T h e s e c o n d h a lf w a s th e n e w a g e a n d o t h e r b u s in e s s e s w h i c h t h e –
w h ic h t h e G u p t a b r o th e r s w a n t e d t o d is c u s s . A n d d u r in g th o s e – d u r i n g
10

the second part Arun Aggarwal Goel and I were asked to move out of
t h e m e e ti n g a n d y o u k n o w s t a y o u t b e c a u s e th a t w a s s o m e t h in g t h a t
t h e y d i d n o t w a n t u s t o b e p a r t o f . S o a t th e e n d o f th e fir s t m e e ti n g
t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s g iv e n . Th e Pr e s id e n t s a i d t h a t h e is g o i n g t o t a k e
a lo o k a t th e p r e s e n ta t io n . H e a s k e d u s t o le a v e a c o p y w i t h h i m . A n d
h e s a i d th a t w h e n w e m e e t n e x t h e is g o i n g to g iv e u s o u r f e e d b a c k o n
t h e s a m e s u g g e s t i o n s a n d a ls o h o w w e c o u l d i m p r o v e t h is f u r t h e r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n – s o t h e n a ft e r
t h a t m e e ti n g t h e n I w o u l d t a k e i t th a t y o u l e f t. W h e n y o u l e f t d i d y o u
all go?

20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e a ll w e n t t o g e t h e r b e c a u s e w e h a d – w e
h a d c o m e in o u r c a r a n d w e h a d g o n e b a c k in t h e s a m e c a r. T h e o t h e r
p a r t s o f t h e d e l e g a ti o n w h ic h is t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s , M o e g s ie n W i ll ia m s
a n d N a z e e m H o w a a n d A s h u C h a w la c a m e a f t e r w a r d s . B u t w h a t I f o u n d
o u t fr o m t h e c o n v e r s a t io n th a t w e h a d y o u k n o w p o s t th a t m e e t i n g w a s
t h a t t h e r e w e r e o th e r is s u e s r e l a t e d t o t h e N e w A g e a d v e r t is i n g a n d

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
a ls o t h e T & A b u s i n e s s b r ie f in g s t h a t w e r e a ir e d o n S A B C w e r e a l s o
d is c u s s e d .

Yo u k n o w i f th e r e w e r e c e r t a i n m in is t e r s w h o t h e y h a d

d i ff ic u l ty a p p r o a c h i n g t o g e t – f o r th o s e i n te r a c t io n s o r th e y w o u l d a s k
P r e s i d e n t Zu m a t o u s e h i s i n f l u e n c e to g e t t h e m in t h e r e . A ls o i f th e y
w a n t e d a p a r tic u la r m i n i s t r y t o p a y fo r t h e v e n u e a n d d e t a i ls li k e t h a t
a n d t h e r e w a s r e lu c t a n c e t h e r e th e y w o u l d g o t o h i m t o g e t th a t s o r t –
t h i n g s s o r te d o u t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h e n y o u a r r iv e d a t th is

m e e ti n g w e r e y o u f o r m a lly in tr o d u c e d t o t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . I w a s b e c a u s e li k e I s a i d t h e r e w a s a
p a c k i n g o r d e r t h e r e w a s a p r o to c o l t h e r e s o M o e g s ie n W i lli a m s w a s t h e
o n e w h o w a s h e a d i n g th e d e l e g a t i o n .

T h e G u p ta b r o t h e r s th e n

in tr o d u c e d I th in k i t w a s A ja y G u p ta i f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n h e s a id th a t
t h e r e a r e t w o n e w p e o p l e h e r e f o r t h is m e e ti n g a n d t h e n h e in t r o d u c e d
A r u n A g g a r w a l a n d m e t o th e Pr e s id e n t s o h e g r e e t e d u s v e r y w a r m ly.
H e s h o o k o u r h a n d s a n d s a t d o w n o n h is c h a ir b e f o r e th e m e e t in g
started.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o o t h e r t h a n y o u th e n

m a k i n g p r e s e n t a ti o n to h i m a s t o w h a t y o u h a d d o n e a n d w h a t y o u r
p l a n s w e r e a b o u t t h e s t a ti o n d id – w a s – d id th e P r e s i d e n t p u t i n – g i v e
y o u a n y in p u t t o it o r d i d h e s i m p ly s a y l o o k t h a n k y o u I w i ll c o n s id e r
w h a t y o u h a v e p u t u p a n d I w il l g e t b a c k t o y o u ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Oh to the best of my knowledge he – in the

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v e r y fi r s t m e e ti n g t h e r e w e r e y o u k n o w s i n c e h e h a d c o m in g f r o m t h a t
m e e ti n g a n d a ll s o h e h a d c o m e b a c k a f t e r s o m e t i m e . H e h a d t a k e n th e
d o c u m e n t fr o m u s a n d s a i d th a t h e i s g o i n g t o g e t b a c k .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A b i t m o r e i n p u ts a s w e g o a lo n g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a l r i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e d id n o t m a k e a n y i n p u t o r a n y s u b s t a n t iv e in p u t
a t t h a t m e e ti n g to …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: If I…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e p r e s e n ta t io n ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I f I a m g i v e n p e r m is s io n t o r e f e r t o t h e

c o n d e n s e d o f m y b o o k b e c a u s e t h a t i s b a s e d o n a d i a r y th a t I w a s
m a in t a i n in g a t th a t t i m e a n d i m m e d i a t e r e c o l le c ti o n b e c a u s e th is w a s
w r i t t e n in 2 0 1 3 . I f I a m g iv e n p e r m is s i o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u c a n …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I w o u l d j u s t w a n t t o c r o s s - c h e c k th is a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u c a n d o t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t r e l a te s t o th e fir s t m e e ti n g h e y ?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja you can do that ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

B u t y o u q u o t e fr o m y o u r b o o k

t h e r e M r S u n d a r a m i f I m a y ju s t d i r e c t y o u r a t t e n t i o n .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .

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A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Yo u q u o te fr o m y o u r b o o k

s t a r ti n g f r o m p a g e 4 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . P a r a g r a p h 1 8 – p a r a g r a p h
19 – 19.1.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : 19.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Yo u q u o ti n g f r o m p a g e s

94 to 104 of your book?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

W h e r e e x a c tly d o y o u

w a n t t o m a k e th e r e f e r e n c e o r d o y o u j u s t w a n t t o – y o u h a v e d e a lt w i t h
what happened …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k h e ju s t w a n t s t o h a v e a …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : Ja I just want to…
C H A I R P E R S O N : R u n t h r o u g h h is e y e s a n d s e e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O h j u s t r u n t h r o u g h i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f – t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : I just need to jog my memory to se.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t , a lr i g h t . O k a y.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s d o t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : What we can do…
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : J u s t t o d ir e c t h i m to …

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C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w e c a n d o w e c a n m o v e o n a n d d u r i n g t h e lu n c h
break you can just have a look.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a ft e r l u n c h y o u c a n t e ll u s w h a t e v e r y o u p i c k e d
up.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : Sure.
CHAIRPERSON : Is that alright?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n d o th a t – I w i ll d o t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h a t I d o w a n t t o a s k y o u i s h o w l o n g d id th a t
m e e ti n g t a k e ? Yo u t o l d u s th a t th e Pr e s i d e n t
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d c o m e fr o m a n o t h e r m e e ti n g .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : M e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h h e h a d l e f t.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e i t c o u l d f i n is h .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u t o s a y h e w a s g o i n g t o g o b a c k

20

t o t h a t m e e ti n g .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h o w l o n g d id t h e m e e ti n g w it h y o u a n d th e G u p t a
d e l e g a ti o n l a s t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I s e e – w i t h t h e t e l e v is io n te a m i t w a s ju s t
A r u n A g g a r w a l a n d I w e w e r e t h e r e f o r a b o u t a n h o u r a n d a f t e r w e le f t i t

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c o n ti n u e d f o r a n o t h e r h o u r / h o u r a n d a h a lf m a y b e s o a b o u t tw o o r tw o
a n d a h a lf h o u r s o n t h a t d a y t h e Pr e s id e n t s p e n t w i th t h e G u p ta
d e l e g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t
a n d p a r t o f it m i g h t b e b e c a u s e I h a v e r e a d y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d m a y b e
y o u h a v e n o t s a id s o . I s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t
w a s s ti ll t o g o b a c k t o th e m e e ti n g fr o m w h ic h h e h a d c o m e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: And he said that there was some ministers
w h o w e r e a l s o w a i ti n g i n t h e o t h e r r o o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I n t h e m e e t i n g t h a t h e h a d c o m e fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . S o h e s p e n t a b o u t a n h o u r i n r e g a r d to t h e
fir s t p a r t o r w h a t y o u c a l l t h e fir s t p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a f t e r y o u a n d s o m e b o d y e ls e h a d b e e n a s k e d t o
le a v e th e m e e ti n g i t w a s a n o t h e r h o u r b e fo r e th e m e e ti n g w a s …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s c o n c l u d e d .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

N o w a f t e r y o u h a d l e ft t h e m e e ti n g d i d y o u w a i t fo r

t h e o th e r m e m b e r s o f t h e d e l e g a t i o n u n ti l t h e y h a d fi n is h e d w i t h t h e
o th e r p a r t o f t h e m e e t i n g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o s i n c e – w e h a d c o m e i n o u r o w n c a r.

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CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e l e ft f r o m t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s o t h e r
w o r k t h a t h a d t o b e d o n e s o w e le f t fr o m t h e r e .

But when they came

b a c k – w h e n th is – t h e r e m a i n d e r o f th e d e l e g a t io n c a m e b a c k t h e – w e
s a t to g e th e r a n d I c o u ld h e a r fr o m t h e m w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d y o u
k n o w w h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d a n d t h i n g s l ik e th a t .

So what I remember

fr o m t h a t d i s c u s s io n is a b o u t y o u k n o w t a lk i n g t o th e P r e s i d e n t a b o u t
t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r, a b o u t b u s i n e s s r e la t e d to t h a t a n d a ls o
b u s i n e s s r e la t e d t o t h e o t h e r b u s i n e s s e s .
10

A n d a ls o w h a t I r e m e m b e r

d is t in c tly is a b o u t c e r t a i n o ffic e m i n i s t e r ia l c o ll e a g u e s i n f l u e n c e d th e m
t h r o u g h t h e Pr e s i d e n t to c o m e a n d a t t e n d t h e T N A – t h e b r e a k f a s t
b r i e fi n g t h a t w e r e ta k i n g p l a c e . W h a t I u n d e r s t o o d w a s th a t t h e y w e r e
fi n d i n g r e l u c t a n c e o r s o m e r e s is ta n c e f r o m s o m e o f t h e m in is t e r s to
a tt e n d t h e m e s p e c i a l ly a f t e r Wa t e r k lo o f . T h e G u p ta n a m e m a n y o f th e
m i n is t e r s d i d n o t w a n t t o a s s o c ia t e w i t h a n d w a n t t o c o m e t h e r e
b e c a u s e y o u k n o w th is S A B C t h e b u s i n e s s b r i e fi n g s t h a t w e r e h a d o n
S A B C t i e d A t u l G u p ta w h o w a s v e r y p r o m i n e n t f ix t u r e t h e r e s o h e w o u ld
b e o n th e m a in t a b l e a n d t h e d i g n i t a r y w h o w o u l d c o m e h a d t o s i t o n
t h e s a m e t a b le w it h h i m i n f u l l p u b l ic g l a r e b e c a u s e t h is w a s t e l e c a s t

20

liv e o n S A B C .

S o s o m e o f th e m i n is t e r s h a d s o m e r e s e r v a t io n a b o u t

d o i n g t h a t e s p e c i a l ly s in c e t h e r e w a s a l o t o f b a d p r e s s th a t th e G u p t a
f a m ily w a s g e t ti n g . S o to – b u t t h i s w a s s o m e t h i n g w h ic h w a s a v e r y
p r o f i ta b le v e n t u r e fo r t h e G u p t a ’s a n d t h e N e w A g e .

S o t h e y – t h e ir

p a r t t h a t th is w o u l d b e a ffe c t e d a n d t h e y w a n te d th e Pr e s id e n t t o a s k
h is m i n is t e r ia l c o ll e a g u e s t o c o m e a n d a t t e n d t h o s e b r ie f in g s b e c a u s e

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t h e y d id n o t w a n t t h e p r o f i ta b il it y o f t h a t v e n t u r e to s t o p i n a n y w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f y o u – i f a f t e r t h e fir s t p a r t o f y o u r m e e ti n g y o u
t o o k y o u r c a r a n d l e f t y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e k n o w n h o w lo n g t h e s e c o n d
part of the meeting took?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Well – because you kn ow when they came

b a c k to o ffi c e y o u k n o w I h a d a s k e d n o w w e h a d f o u n d o u t t h a t it w a s
a b o u t a n o t h e r h o u r – b e tw e e n a n h o u r a n d a n h o u r a n d a h a l f t h a t t h e y
h a d s p e n t.

S o I h a v e – I r e m e m b e r th o s e m e e ti n g s w h e n t h e y c a m e

b a c k th e r e w e r e r e v ie w s .
10

T h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g c a ll e d th e e x e c u t iv e

c o m m i t t e e m e e t in g s t h a t w i ll h a p p e n w h e r e w e e x c h a n g e n o t e s a n d . .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t it is n o t lik e y o u s a w w h e n th e y c a m e o u t o f
t h e m e e ti n g /
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: No I am…
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u k n o w i f y o u h a d n o t l e f t a n d y o u w e r e w a i ti n g

o u t s i d e a n d w a i t in g f o r th e m t o c o m e o u t a n d t h e y c a m e o u t t h e n t h a t
w o u ld b e …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e n I w o u ld k n o w f o r s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I a m b a s in g i t o n t h e i n f o r m a t i o n a n d i n p u t
20

that I got…
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o n t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t s u b s e q u e n t ly h a p p e n e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u a ls o m e n t io n e d t h a t w h a t y o u h a v e w r i t te n i n
y o u r b o o k i n r e g a r d t o th a t f ir s t m e e ti n g a n d I a s s u m e i n r e g a r d t o
o th e r m e e t i n g s t h a t y o u t a l k a b o u t i n y o u r s t a te m e n t a s w e l l is b a s e d

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
o n a d i a r y t h a t y o u – w h e r e y o u m a d e e n tr ie s a t th e ti m e , is th a t
correct?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I w o u ld n o t c a l l i t a d ia r y b u t th e r e w e r e

v a r io u s d o c u m e n t s , s o m e m a i ls th a t w e r e s e n t o u t w h e r e I c o u l d r e fe r
the dates to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o it w a s n o t a d i a r y it w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d o e s n o t – i t w a s n o t a d i a r y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : It was not a diary but it was …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o c u m e n ts ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A b u n c h o f d o c u m e n ts o r y o u k n o w c e r ta i n
t h i n g s t h a t I c o u l d r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON : YEs.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

L ik e t h e 2 2 n d o f – o r y o u k n o w li k e f o r

in s t a n c e t h e l a s t m e e ti n g t h a t I h a d w i t h t h e m I r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e t h a t
w a s o n e d a y b e f o r e th e l a u n c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: So I can just go back and say that the date
is t h is .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h i s w a s t h e d a te o f t h e l a u n c h a n d I c a m e
back so.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

O k a y.

O t h e r w is e

there

was

no

c o n te m p o r a n e o u s r e c o r d o f w h a t h a d b e e n d is c u s s e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Yo u s e e I w r o t e th e m a n u s c r i p t o f t h is b o o k

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w i t h i n a f e w m o n t h s o f l e a v i n g S o u t h A f r ic a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o it w a s fr e s h i n m y m e m o r y a t t h a t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d i t w a s a l l w r i t t e n a t th a t t i m e
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d p u t t h e r e . S o th e b o o k w a s r e l e a s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : In last year Ma rch.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

But the manuscript was ready in 2013 and

t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n c h a l le n g e s t h a t w e r e t h e r e s o i t c o u ld n o t c o m e o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

M a y b e j u s t t o t a k e y o u b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h 1 9 . 1 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t th a t is
w h e r e y o u q u o t i n g fr o m t h e b o o k ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Th e r e i s s o m e t h in g th a t

y o u m e n t io n e d t h e r e a s t o a n u m b e r 9 a n d w h o i s n u m b e r 9 a n d w h y d o
20

y o u m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o a n u m b e r 9 in t h a t p a r a g r a p h ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s I …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t is p a g e 5 .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s b e c a u s e y o u k n o w th e y h a d s a id t h a t

t h e e n tir e m e e ti n g w i t h Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a s h o u l d b e k e p t a s s e c r e t iv e a s
p o s s i b le a n d t h e – t h e r e s h o u l d b e a lo t o f c o n fi d e n ti a li ty a r o u n d i t .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
B u t o f c o u r s e w h a t t h e y s a i d is th a t i f w e d o d i s c u s s a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g
b e c a u s e w e h a d t o m a k e a p r e s e n ta t i o n a n d t h e i n p u t s h a d t o b e
d is c u s s e d w it h t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t a n d i f y o u w e r e d i s c u s s in g
b e f o r e o t h e r s w e s h o u ld n o t m e n ti o n t h e P r e s i d e n t b y n a m e .

Th a t is

w h a t A t u l G u p ta s a i d . H e s a i d w e s h o u ld r e fe r t o h i m a s n u m b e r 9 . S o
I f o u n d th a t a l i tt l e i n tr i g u i n g a n d a s k e d h i m w h y n u m b e r 9 , w h y n o t
n u m b e r 3 o r n u m b e r 7 o r n u m b e r 1 0 . H e s a i d n u m b e r 9 w a s th e c o d e
t h a t w a s g iv e n t o P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w h e n h e w a s p a r t o f t h e A N C a n d y o u
k n o w h e w a s p a r t o f a n i n te ll i g e n c e g r o u p i n g d u r in g t h e a p a r t h e i d y e a r s
10

a n d t h a t is a c o d e n a m e t h a t h e w o u l d w a n t t o u s e i n t h is c a s e . A n d
w h e n e v e r h e c a l le d m e u p lik e f o r i n s ta n c e w h e n h e c a l l e d m e u p t h e
d a y b e f o r e t h e m e e ti n g h e s a id w e h a v e t o m e e t n u m b e r 9 t o m o r r o w a t
9 :3 0 h e d id n o t r e f e r h i m b y n a m e . S o t h e y h a d t o l d u s th a t i t s h o u l d
n o t b e m e n ti o n e d t o a n y b o d y a n d n o t w i t h t h e t e a m i n In d i a n o t w i th t h e
t e a m i n S o u th A fr ic a a n d i t s h o u l d b e ju s t t h e s e f o u r, fi v e p e o p le w h o
w e r e p a r t o f th e e n tir e p la n n i n g p l u s A s la m w h o w a s a c lo s e c o n f i d a n t e
w h o w o u l d y o u k n o w fi n a l ly g iv e a fo r m t o t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n i n t e r m s o f
y o u k n o w p r i n ti n g i t o u t a n d p u t t in g t h e p h o to g r a p h s a n d t h e l o g o s a n d
a l l o f th a t .

20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

M a y b e I w i ll j u s t

h a v e t o t a k e y o u b a c k a n d ju s t l o o k in g a t y o u r – a t y o u r – t h e
q u o t a t i o n s t h a t y o u m a k e fr o m t h e b o o k .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

B e c a u s e I t h in k th e s e m a t t e r s

a r e q u i t e i m p o r t a n t . N o w i f y o u – w e r e y o u o ffe r e d w h e n y o u e n t e r e d

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b e c a u s e y o u s i m p ly w e n t t o – w h e n t h e n t h e P r e s i d e n t e n t e r e d t h e
r o o m b u t I w a n t to k n o w w e r e y o u o ff e r e d a n y li k e b e v e r a g e s w h ils t y o u
w e r e w a i ti n g f o r t h e P r e s i d e n t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O h y e s w e h a d a la d y fr o m t h e Pr e s id e n t’s
o ffic e w h o c a m e i n a n d a s k e d u s y o u k n o w i f a n y b o d y w o u l d n e e d a n y
b e v e r a g e s a n d t h a t w a s i n t h a t w a i ti n g r o o m w h ic h w a s t o t h e r ig h t o f
t h e e n tr a n c e . Th e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h o h a d o r d e r e d t h e b e v e r a g e s th e y
c a m e a n d i t w a s c o n s u m e d . A n d a ls o I t h i n k I r e m e m b e r a t th a t t i m e
A t u l G u p t a h a d v e r y j o k in g ly s a id th a t y o u a r e jo u r n a li s ts y o u d o n o t
10

h a v e a n y s h o e s y o u n o t t a k in g h o s p i ta li t y o n t a x p a y e r s m o n e y.

So

t h e n I h i m t h a t y o u k n o w w e l l I p a y m y ta x e s h e r e a s w e l l s o [i n d is t in c t ]
t h e r e is n o r e a s o n fo r u s to – a n d t h e n h e m a d e a c l a i m a t t h a t t i m e .
H e s a id t h a t w h il e m a n y c o m p a n ie s i n I n d i a f u d g e th e i r a c c o u n t b o o k s .
Yo u k n o w t h e r e is o n e s e t o f a c c o u n t s t h a t t h e y h a v e f o r i n t e r n a l
c o n s u m p ti o n a n d o n e s e t o f a c c o u n ts t h a t is f o r t h e t a x d e p a r t m e n t
w h ic h m e a n t t h a t t h e r e w a s a lo t f u d g i n g th a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . H e
c la i m e d a t t h a t t i m e th a t t h e y d id n o t d o a n y f u d g i n g i n t h e ir b u s i n e s s e s
h e r e i n S o u th A fr ic a .

S o – b u t o f c o u r s e t h a t w a s j u s t th e s m a l l t a lk

t h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w h i le w e w e r e w a it i n g f o r t h e Pr e s id e n t.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

And then you make

m e n ti o n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n M s A s h u C h a w l a s p r a n g to h i s f e e t t o
t o u c h s o m e o n e e ls e ’s f e e t c o u l d y o u j u s t e x p la in to t h e C h a i r p e r s o n
w h a t th a t w a s a l l a b o u t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll I t h i n k t h e r e w a s – y o u k n o w t h a t is

p a r t o f a – th e f e u d a l c u l t u r e i n I n d i a is f o r y o u t o g o a n d t o u c h t h e f e e t

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
o f – I w o u l d c a l l i t t h e f e u d a l c u lt u r e b u t i t i s a ls o a r e s p e c t to t h e
e l d e r s . W e g o a n d t o u c h p e o p l e ’s f e e t .

B u t y o u k n o w i t i s s o m e th in g

t h a t is l o o k e d d o w n u p o n i n I n d i a e s p e c i a l ly in a c o r p o r a t e k i n d o f a
s e t u p . Yo u k n o w in a f a m i ly s e tu p s o n s r o u ti n e ly t o u c h t h e f e e t o f t h e ir
p a r e n ts o r t h e ir u n c l e s a n d a u n ts . B u t i t i s g e n e r a lly n o t th e d o n e t h i n g
in a n o ffi c e in a p r o f e s s i o n a l e n v ir o n m e n t . B u t w h a t I fo u n d t h e r e w a s
t h a t p e o p l e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o r e a ff ir m th e i r l o y a l ty t o t h e G u p t a
b r o t h e r s b y t o u c h i n g th e i r f e e t e s p e c ia ll y t h e l a w y e r s li k e A s la m w o u l d
d o t h a t v e r y r e g u la r ly.
10

A ls o A s h u C h a w l a w a s s o m e b o d y w h o w o u l d

t o u c h t h e b r o th e r s f e e t e v e r y t i m e th a t h e s a w t h e m a n d th e y w o u ld
v e r y r e l u c t a n t ly a s k th e m t o s i t u p .

Of course you know when

s o m e b o d y to u c h e s y o u r f e e t y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o b l e s s th e m a n d s a y
t h a t m a y y o u h a v e a l o n g l if e o r w h a t e v e r. B u t th e y w o u ld j u s t a s k h i m
t o g e t u p a n d m o v e i t . Th is w a s p a r t o f t h e c u lt u r e . T h e y w e r e – th e –
m a n y p e o p le w h o h a d c o m e fr o m I n d i a w h o w e r e w o r k i n g w i th t h e
G u p t a f a m il y f o r m a n y y e a r s w h o – w h o t h o u g h t n o t h i n g w r o n g in
t o u c h in g th e b r o t h e r s f e e t w h e n th e y s a w t h e m a n d t h a t is As h u d id a s
w e ll . Yo u k n o w a s s o o n A j a y G u p t a a n d A t u l G u p t a c a m e i n h e b o w e d
t o t o u c h t h e ir f e e t .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Yo u m e n ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s – I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t y o u t o u c h th e ir f e e t i f t h e y a r e b a r e f o o t o r t o u c h
t h e ir s h o e s if t h e y a r e – o r d o y o u o n l y u s e – d o t h a t i f th e y a r e
barefoot?

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o i t is j u s t a s ig n o f r e s p e c t y o u k n o w. S o
r e g a r d le s s o f w h e th e r t h e y a r e w e a r i n g t h e s h o e s o r n o t y o u a r e
s u p p o s e d to t o u c h t h e m j a .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d I j u s t w a n t
t o d e a l n o w w it h y o u r in p u t a s th e c o n s u l t a n t e d i t o r y o u a r e i n t h e
p l a n n in g o f a l l o f t h is . Yo u m e n t io n i n s o m e o f t h e q u o ta t io n s fr o m t h e
b o o k t h a t t h e r e i s s o m e t h in g th a t A t u l w a n t e d l o t s o f g r a p h i c s w h ic h
y o u f e lt t h a t w a s l e s s s o p h is t ic a t e d .

C o u l d y o u j u s t d e a l w it h th a t

a s p e c t s o th a t w e c a n s e e w h a t y o u r c o n t r ib u ti o n r e a ll y w a s i n s o fa r a s
10

t h e s e t ti n g u p o f t h e s t a ti o n w a s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : C e r ta i n ly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O h t h a t is j u s t a c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t I h a d

w h il e w e w e r e w a i ti n g f o r t h e P r e s i d e n t .

Yo u k n o w t h e r e w a s a

t e l e v i s i o n s e t i n w h i c h – a n d th e r e w a s D S T V r e m o t e t h a t h e h a d i n h i s
h a n d . H e w o u l d f li p c h a n n e l s , v a r i o u s t e l e v is io n c h a n n e l s a n d – a n d h e
s a i d t h a t h e – h e l ik e d th e t e l e v is i o n s t a ti o n t h a t w e w e r e a b o u t t o s e t
u p t o b e – to h a v e a l o t o f c lu t t e r o n th e s c r e e n h e s a i d h e w a n te d t o
d a z z l e t h e p e o p l e o f S o u t h A f r i c a . W e l l I s u g g e s t e d t o h i m t h a t it w a s
20

m u c h – y o u k n o w y o u ju s t h a v e t w o e y e s a n d y o u c a n f o c u s o n o n e
t h i n g o n t h e s c r e e n s o i t is b e s t t o h a v e a m i n i m a l a p p r o a c h w h e n i t
c a m e t o t h e e le m e n ts o n t h e s c r e e n .

B u t h e in s i s t e d th e r e t h a t h e

w o u ld w a n t y o u k n o w lik e a t o p b a n d , a b o tt o m b a n d , t h e lo w e r th ir d to
h a v e m u lt i p l e l a y e r s , t o e v e n h a v e a b a n d o n t h e s i d e w h i c h w il l h a v e
m o r e d e ta il s . W h i c h is s o m e th i n g t h a t s o m e c h a n n e ls in I n d i a t h e H i n d i

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s t a ti o n s d o . S o I tr i e d t o r e a s o n w i t h h i m a t t h a t ti m e t h a t is n o t h o w i t
s h o u l d b e d o n e a n d t h a t is n o t h o w c o n t e m p o r a r y s ty li n g is y o u k n o w.
B e c a u s e m i n i m a l is g o o d , le s s is m o r e w h e n it c o m e s t o t e l e v is io n
b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t o v e r u s e t h e g r a p h ic s .

He of course had a

d is a g r e e m e n t o n t h a t. C o m in g t o m y s c o p e o f w o r k i n a l l o f t h is I t w a s
- b a s ic a l ly I w a s th e g lu e t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d to h o ld th e w h o l e t h i n g
t o g e th e r in te r ms o f e d i t o r i a l p r o c e s s , t h e e d i t o r i a l e m p l o y e e s , th e
t e c h n ic a l s ta ff , t h e b r o a d c a s t s t a ff , t h e v e n d o r s w h o w e r e to c o m e a n d
– t h e c le a n e r s – fr o m t h e v e n d o r s s i d e w o u l d c o m e a n d m a k e s u r e th a t
10

– y o u k n o w – e v e r y t h i n g h a p p e n e d i n a p r e - p l a n n e d s e q u e n ti a l w a y s o
t h a t t h e la u n c h w a s f la w le s s b u t w h a t I f o u n d w a s t h a t I e n c o u n t e r e d
e v e r y s t e p a v e r y s u s p ic io u s A t u l G u p ta w h o w o u l d w a n t t h in g s t o b e
d o n e q u ic k e r t h a n w h a t t h e p r o f e s s i o n a ls w e r e n o t l is t e n in g t o h i m . To
g iv e y o u a n a n a lo g y o f t h e c o n s tr u c t io n i n d u s tr y.

I f a w a ll t a k e s fiv e

d a y s to c o n s tr u c t – y o u k n o w - y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o p u t th e b r i c k s a n d
t h e n – y o u k n o w - t h e r e is c e m e n t .

T h e r e is c u r i n g t h a t t a k e s p l a c e .

W i th o u t u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e p r o c e s s h e w o u l d s a y I w a n t t h a t w a l l d o n e
in o n e d a y.

T h e n – a n d s o m e b o d y tr i e s t o r e a s o n w i t h h i m h e w o u ld

s a y o h t h a t is a n e x c u s e – y o u k n o w. Yo u a r e j u s t d e l a y i n g i t f o r m e .
20

T h e y w e r e i n t e a r in g h u r r y to s e t t h e s t a ti o n u p a n d n o w I r e a lis e i t w a s
b e c a u s e t h e y w a n te d t o h a v e t h e s t a ti o n u p a n d r u n n in g . T h e y d i d n o t
r e a l ly c a r e h o w t h e c o n t e n t w a s . I t w a s j u s t th a t t h e y w a n te d t o s t a r t
m a k i n g p r o f i ts a s s o o n a s p o s s ib le a n d c h a n n e l th a t a s d iv id e n d s t o t h e
s t a k e h o ld e r s .

S o r e a l ly t h e – t h e c o n t e n t o r t h e l o o k a n d f e e l o f th e

s t a ti o n w a s s e c o n d a r y b e c a u s e ju s t g e t i t u p a s s o o n a s p o s s ib le a n d

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
g e t i t s ta r t e d . G e t th e G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n ts t o g iv e y o u r e v e n u e s
a n d th a t i s w h a t t h e ( i n d is t in c t ) w a s a b o u t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Thank

you

and

then

in

p a r a g r a p h 1 9 . 3 6 i f y o u m a y j u s t h a v e a l o o k . Th a t is w h e r e y o u d e a l
w i t h y o u r d ir e c t i n te r a c t io n w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t a t t h a t m e e t in g .

Could

y o u j u s t l o o k a t t h a t a n d t e s ti fy t o i t p l e a s e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is t h a t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A t p a g e 1 4 C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : 1-4?
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

1-4

yes

at

paragraph

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t r e l a t e s to t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g s ti ll ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S t i ll th e fir s t m e e t in g .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 . 3 6 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . S e e b e c a u s e P r e s id e n t Z u m a – o n e o f
t h e m a n d a t e s t h a t I h a d fo r t h is m e e ti n g w a s t o a l s o te ll h i m h o w th e
c o n te n t is g o i n g t o b e d i ff e r e n t ia t e d . S o w h a t I s a w a n d I h a d v e r y li t tl e
ti m e t o s e e w h a t t h e c o m p e t i ti o n w a s . I s a w th a t – y o u k n o w – t h e r e
20

h a d t o b e a f a ir r e p r e s e n ta t io n f o r th e p r o v i n c e s w h ic h i s w h a t
( in d is ti n c t) – y o u k n o w. S o w e s a i d th a t w e a r e g o i n g t o h a v e o f c o u r s e
t h e n a m e b e e n A fr ic a n N e w s N e t w o r k .

W e s a i d t h a t w e w i ll h a v e a

c o r r e s p o n d e n t i n e a c h p a r t o f A fr ic a .

I n a s m a n y o f t h e c i ti e s a s

p o s s i b le . A ls o t h e r e w o u l d b e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n i n t e r m s o f r e p o r ti n g s ta ff
in t h e p r o v i n c e s a n d t h e r e w o u l d b e a p r o v in c i a l b u l l e t i n th a t w o u l d

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c o m e o u t o n c e o r t w ic e d a y.

T h e r e w o u ld b e a n A fr ic a B u l l e t i n t h a t

w o u ld b e p a r t o f t h e – a p a r t f r o m t h e r o lli n g b u ll e ti n s th a t w o u l d g o
t h r o u g h o u t t h e d a y. I n t e r m s o f p r o g r a m m in g w e h a d t o l d h i m t h e k i n d
o f e m p h a s i s t h a t w e h a d o n s p o r t s a n d i n te r n a ti o n a l n e w s a n d
e n t e r t a i n m e n t a n d li f e s ty l e .

I e x p l a i n e d to h i m h o w w e w o u ld g e t

in t e r n a t io n a l n e w s t h r o u g h s u b s c r ip t io n t o v a r i o u s a g e n c i e s .

A ls o

t h e s e a g e n c ie s h a d s p e c if ic fe e d s o n – o n s a y H o l ly w o o d a n d h o w w e
w o u ld g e t t h e l a t e s t f o o ta g e fr o m t h e m a n d a ls o in t e r m s o f s p o r t s t h e
k in d o f c o v e r a g e t h a t w e p l a n n e d k in d o f b u ll e ti n s a n d h o w t h o s e
10

b u ll e ti n s w o u ld b e n o t ju s t a n a n c h o r s i tt i n g b e h in d th e d e s k a n d
r e a d in g o ff a t e l e p r o m p te r b u t – y o u k n o w – t h e d i ffe r e n t e l e m e n t s o f
t h e s t u d i o a n d h o w w e w o u l d u s e t h a t t o m a k e i t d i ffe r e n t . S o – a n d h e
w i ll li s t e n t o a ll o f t h i s v e r y i n te n tl y a n d h e w a s v e r y i m p r e s s e d b y t h e
f a c t t h a t w e w o u ld h a v e e m p h a s is o n t h e p r o v i n c e s m o r e – n e w s fr o m
t h e p r o v in c e s – b e c a u s e h e s a i d t h a t t h a t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e
c o m p e ti t io n w a s n o t d o in g a n d t h a t is w h a t w a s r e q u ir e d fo r h i m . A ls o
t h e f a c t t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e r e p o r te r s i n th e v a r io u s c a p i t a l s a c r o s s
A fr ic a o r s o m e th i n g .

T h a t – t h a t h e f o u n d i n te r e s ti n g a s w e l l .

I

r e m e m b e r.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
in t e r a c ti o n a t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 . 3 8 .

Ye s a n d t h e n th e r e is s o m e

C o u l d y o u j u s t te ll t h e C h a i r p e r s o n

a b o u t t h a t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . S o t h is i s s o m e th in g t h a t h e s a i d w e
s h o u l d n o t h a v e – y o u k n o w. T h a t – h e t h o u g h t t h a t - h e m e n ti o n e d th e
channel by name – ENCA.

H e s a i d t h a t t h a t s ta t io n h a d a l o t o f

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e p u t a ti o n o f b u l le t in s a t t h a t ti m e a n d h e s a i d t h a t t h a t i s s o m e th i n g
t h a t h e f o u n d v e r y b o r i n g . S o h e s a id – y o u k n o w – y o u s h o u l d h a v e a
lo t o f fr e s h b u ll e ti n s a n d e a c h b u l le t in s h o u l d n o t b e th e s a m e s e t
b e h in d t h e m a n d t h e s a m e c a m e r a a n g l e s b u t i t s h o u l d h a v e a s m a n y
s e t – it s h o u l d b e a s d i ff e r e n t a s p o s s i b l e . S o i f y o u h a v e a s e t – t h e n
I e x p l a i n e d t o h i m a b o u t h o w w e h a d m u l t ip le c a m e r a a n g l e s t h a t w e r e
p o s s i b le , m u l t ip l e b a c k g r o u n d s t h a t w e r e p o s s i b le .

So it was not just

h a z y s c r e e n s a t t h e b a c k b u t y o u c o u l d a c t u a l ly h a v e p e o p l e – th e
e n t ir e n e w s r o o m b u s y i n th e b a c k g r o u n d a n d y o u c o u l d h a v e a n a n c h o r
10

r e a d in g a n e w s b u l l e t i n fr o m t h e r e . S o I e x p l a in e d a ll o f t h a t to h i m . I
a ls o r e m e m b e r t h a t h e h a d a n a v e r s io n f o r t h e – y o u k n o w – t h e
h u m o r o u s p r o g r a m m i n g t h a t w a s t h e - a p r o g r a m f e a tu r i n g a p u p p e t .
H e s a i d t h a t th e r e s h o u l d b e n o l a m p o o n i n g o f p o li t ic i a n s .

He

a b s o l u t e ly h a t e d t h a t a n d h e s a id y o u s h o u ld n o t h a v e t h a t o n y o u r
s t a ti o n b e c a u s e th a t is s o m e t h i n g - h e s a i d t h a t t h e r e s h o u ld b e n o
la m p o o n i n g o f p o li t ic i a n s . Yo u k n o w t h a t r e a ll y s h o u ld n o t b e d o n e a n d
…
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
20

t h a t o n th e s t a ti o n .

H e s a i d t h a t I fo r b id a n y b o d y fr o m h a v i n g

S o w e a ll la u g h e d it o ff b u t o f c o u r s e I w a s to ld

la t e r t h a t i f h e s a i d h e d o e s n o t w a n t i t t h e n w e c a n n o t h a v e a n y o f t h a t
on – on it.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o t h e n – t h e n a f t e r t h a t
t h e n y o u l e f t t h e m e e ti n g a f t e r a ll t h e s e in t e r a c ti o n s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Yo u l e f t t h e p r e s e n t a t i o n a n d

y o u l e ft ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

C o u ld y o u p le a s e t e ll t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e n a b o u t t h e s e c o n d m e e t i n g ?

H o w it c a m e a b o u t a n d

w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f th a t m e e t i n g ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m – I a m s o r r y. M a y b e h e s h o u l d m a k e t h e p o i n t
that is made in paragraph 19.34.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P o in t 3 4 ?
10

CHAIRPERSON : 19.34 page 14.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O h y e s , y e s . Ye s , y e s a t p a g e
1 4 . Ar e y o u t h e r e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a c t u a ll y …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : M a y b e j u s t r e a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c t u a ll y 1 9 .3 3 h e m a y h a v e a n s w e r e d i n p a r t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

W h e n I a s k e d h i m a q u e s ti o n b u t I th i n k i t is

i m p o r t a n t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : M a y – m a y h e t h e n b e a ll o w e d
t o j u s t r e a d t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s M r C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s h e c a n r e a d t h e m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 1 9 . 3 3 / 1 9 . 3 4 .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

“ A ja y i n t r o d u c e d m e a n d A r u n –

t h is R a j e s h Ar u n – h e is t h e e d it o r o f t h e t e l e v i s i o n
o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d th is is A r u n A g r a w a l . A r a m j e e i s
the business head.

T h e y h a v e b o t h c o m e fr o m

I n d ia r e c e n t ly a n d h a v e m a n y y e a r s o f e x p e r i e n c e
w o r k i n g w i th l a r g e i n t e r n a ti o n a l n e tw o r k s .

Yo u

know the other gentleman. I soon have to go back
to the meeting I left behind. I know that I have a lot
o f t h i n g s to d i s c u s s b u t l ik e th e y s a y in Zu l u w e

10

m u s t s k i n t h e a n i m a l to d a y. W e w il l le a v e t h e r e s t
f o r l a te r Pr e s id e n t Z u m a s a id . S o I w i ll a s k R a j e s h
t o g i v e y o u a q u ic k o v e r v ie w o f th e p r o je c t e v e n
a n s w e r in g a n y q u e s t i o n s y o u m a y h a v e a n d th e n w e
w i ll a s k t h e T V t e a m t o l e a v e a n d w e c a n d i s c u s s
is s u e s r e la t e d t o t h e n e w s p a p e r. A ja y s a i d p o i n ti n g
to me.

I h a n d e d P r e s i d e n t Zu m a a c o p y o f t h e

p r e s e n t a ti o n . ”
19.34:
20

“ Se e t h e lo g o o n t h e p r e s e n ta t io n .

S o it i s A N N 7 .

L ik e y o u s a i d w e a r e c a l li n g t h e c h a n n e l A fr ic a
N e w s N e t w o r k . W e a r e f o ll o w i n g a l l t h e t h i n g s y o u
t o l d u s s ir. A j a y t o l d P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a n d p o i n t e d t o
t h e lo g o . T h e Pr e s id e n t s e e m e d i m p r e s s e d .”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M a y b e …

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n I t h i n k f o r th e s a k e o f c o m p l e te n e s s y o u c a n
read 19.35.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : F iv e .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

“He

acknowledgement.

smiled

T h is

w i ll

at
be

A ja y
the

in
most

t e c h n o l o g i c a ll y a d v a n c e d t e le v is i o n s t a ti o n i n S o u t h
A fr ic a .

T h e b r o a d c a s t n e w s r o o m a u t o m a ti o n a n d

p r o d u c t io n s y s te m s w e h a v e a r e u s e d b y t h e t o p
news networks of the world.
10

Our news gathering

r e a c h w i ll b e t h e w id e s t a m o n g o u t p e e r s w i t h
b u r e a u s , s t u d i o s a n d li v e s o u r c e s p r o p o s e d i n e v e r y
p r o v i n c e .”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

N o w a f te r t h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e i n 1 9 – i n p a r a g r a p h

1 9 . 3 5 t h e f ir s t s e n te n c e s a y s :
“ H e s m il e d a t A j a y in a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t .”
T h e n a ft e r t h a t y o u s e e m t o o p e n q u o ta t io n s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

I d o n o t s e e w h e r e y o u c l o s e t h e q u o t a ti o n s b u t

b e f o r e w e l o o k a t t h a t w h o is ta lk in g a f t e r t h a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is I th i n k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h a t is m e b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n a s k e d to

m a k e a p r e s e n ta t io n t o h i m a n d te ll h i m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is y o u t a lk i n g n o w t h e r e ?

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o t h e q u o t a ti o n c l o s e d 1 9 . 3 6 .
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is w h e n I s a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t i s f i n e . Yo u c a n c o n ti n u e .
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: If you are happy with it?
CHAIRPERSON : Oh, does it go up to 19 …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Point 42?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W o u l d y o u p e r h a p s p r e f e r
t h a t h e r e a d s a ll o f t h a t M r C h a i r p e r s o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o th a t w e d o n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n te d to – to t h e e x t e n t th a t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .

20

CHAIRPERSON :

S o m e - I t h o u g h t s o m e b o d y w a s b e i n g q u o te d a n d I

w a n t e d t o k n o w h o w fa r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t - t h a t g o e s , o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s – th a t i s y o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n ?

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t t h a t y o u q u o t e y o u r

p r e s e n t a ti o n u p t o t h e e n d o f p a r a g r a p h 1 9 . 4 2 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Just have a look …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : At the end of …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N
10

SC:

Ye s ,

before

th e

second

m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Maybe you could make

t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t y o u m a k e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 9 . 4 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Oh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Yo u w a n t m e t o r e a d t h a t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O k a y. A f te r …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a c t u a l ly – I a m s o r r y. I a c tu a l ly t h i n k th a t – w e l l h e
m u s t t e l l u s i m p o r t a n t f e a tu r e s o f th a t p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t h e
might not have. If he …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t e v e r h e h a s a l r e a d y d e a lt w it h h e d o e s n o t n e e d
to repeat …

Page 87 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : But I think 19.40 seems to be importan t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s w e ll a s 1 9 . 3 9 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : 19.39. Maybe …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : He could start at 19 …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P o in t 3 9 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e s h o u l d s t a r t a t 1 9 .3 8 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t h e h a s a l r e a d y d e a l t w i t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , h e h a s t a k e n c a r e o f th a t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e n 1 9 .3 9 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P o in t 3 9 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON : And 19.40.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O k a y. 1 9 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n ju s t r e a d t h a t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

1 9 .3 7

has

a

few

d e t a ils

about

how

t e c h n o l o g i c a ll y w e w o u l d b e d i ffe r e n t in t e r m s o f t h e r o b o ti c c a m e r a s ,
s t a te o f t h e a r t p r o d u c ti o n c o n tr o l r o o m a n d a l l o f t h a t w h ic h I

Page 88 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
explained there.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : C o m in g to 1 3 . 9 ? 1 3 . 3 9 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : 1 9 . 3 9 s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

“I

s h o u ld

a ls o

le a v e .

P r e s i d e n t Z u m a g o t u p t o a n d w a r m ly s h o o k o u r
10

hands.

H e t h e n w a lk e d u s t o t h e d o o r a n d s h o o k

h a n d s a g a i n b e f o r e w e le f t .

A ll t h r e e m e e t in g s I

h a d w i t h P r e s i d e n t Z u m a e n d e d t h is w a y. N a z e e m ,
M o e g s i e n , A j a y a n d A t u l s t a y e d o n . I w a s to ld la t e r
b y a M in is t e r – b y a M e m b e r o f t h e N e w A g e
M a r k e t in g Te a m t h a t th e s e d is c u s s io n s w e r e c r u c ia l
f o r t h e p e o p l e t o g e t G o v e r n m e n t a d v e r t is i n g a n d
b r i n g h a r d to c o n v i n c e M i n is te r s a n d o ff ic ia ls i n a s
g u e s t s o n t h e N e w A g e B u s i n e s s b r i e fi n g . ”
S o th is is s o m e t h i n g w h ic h I h a d e x p la i n e d e a r l ie r a s w e ll . Yo u k n o w –
20

s o th e y w e r e v e r y o p e n a b o u t it t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e l o o k i n g a t t h e
m a r k e t in g o f t h e N e w A g e t h a t t h e s e m e e t in g s w e r e c r u c ia l fr o m a
r e v e n u e s t a n d p o i n t f o r t h e n e w s p a p e r b e c a u s e t h is is w h e r e th e
c o n v i n c i n g a b o u t g e t ti n g a d v e r ti s e d . N o w r e m e m b e r w h ic h I m e n t io n e d
in a n o t h e r p a r t o f m y s ta t e m e n t h e r e is t h a t t h e r e w a s o n e p a r ti c u l a r
m e e ti n g I r e m e m b e r Mr A ja y G u p t a w a s v e r y a g i ta t e d a b o u t th e f a c t t h e

Page 89 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
I n d e p e n d e n t E l e c ti o n C o m m i s s io n h a d a m u l ti p l e m il li o n R a n d b u d g e t
f o r a d v e r t is in g b u t t h e y w e r e n o t g iv in g a n y o f t h a t t o th e N e w A g e . S o
t h e y t o o k i t u p w i t h th e Pr e s i d e n t i n o n e o f t h e m e e t i n g a n d v e r y
s tr o n g ly p u t fo r t h t o h i m t h a t – y o u k n o w – th e In d e p e n d e n t E l e c t io n
Commission was not giving a share of the pie to the New Age and they
w e r e a s s u r e d a t t h a t t i m e t h a t - th a t P r e s i d e n t w o u l d lo o k i n t o t h e – t h e
m a t t e r.

S o t h e p o in t I a m m a k i n g i s t h a t th e s e m e e t i n g s a r e v e r y

c r u c i a l fr o m a r e v e n u e s ta n d p o in t fo r t h e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h e C h a ir p e r s o n a s k e d y o u t o

lo o k a t 1 9 .4 0 a s w e ll .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 40?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Oh.
“ Af t e r th e Wa t e r k lo o f s c a n d a l s o m e M i n i s t e r s a n d
o ffic i a ls s e e m e d r e l u c t a n t t o b e s e e n i n p u b li c w i th
A t u l o r o n a p l a t f o r m p o s te d b y h i s n e w s p a p e r.
T h e s e M i n is t e r s a n d o ff ic ia ls w e r e c o n v i n c e d a f t e r a
20

nudge from the President Atul told me.

The bad

p r e s s a n d p u b l ic o u tc r y f o l l o w in g th e i n c id e n t d i d
n o t s e e m to h a v e m a d e a n y d i ff e r e n c e t o t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n Pr e s id e n t Z u m a a n d t h e G u p ta
brothers .

In

th e

three

m e e ti n g s

w it h

President Zuma that I was part of the two brothers

Page 90 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
bonded

well

with

the

President

and

joked

o c c a s i o n a l ly a b o u t th e s c a n d a l . I t w a s li k e n o t h i n g
had happened.”
S o t h e y e v e n m a d e j o k e s a b o u t th e s c a n d a l – y o u k n o w - li k e I
r e m e m b e r w h e n th e P r e s i d e n t w o u l d s a y s o m e th i n g a n d s a y o h b u t t h e n
t h is h a p p e n e d d u r i n g Wa t e r k l o o f – y o u k n o w – I w o u l d n o t b e a l l o w e d to
g e t g u e s ts n o w. Th in g s l ik e t h a t – y o u k n o w – w h ic h t h e P r e s i d e n t d i d
n o t s e e m t o m i n d a n d t h e y w o u l d h a v e a h e a r ty l a u g h a b o u t i t a s w e l l.
S o – a n d a ls o th e r e w a s r e lu c ta n c e a m o n g m a n y M in is t e r s t o b e s e e n
10

o n t h e s a m e p l a t fo r m a n d t h e y d i d s e e m t o c o m e l a t e r b e c a u s e t h e y
w e r e c o n v in c e d to c o m e f o r th e s e m e e ti n g s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n 1 9 . 4 2
b e c a u s e i n 1 9 . 4 1 o r t h is is w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t c o v e r e d ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e 4 1 th a t i s a c o n t in u a ti o n .
“ T h e b r o t h e r s …”
CHAIRPERSON :
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

“ … h a d f a ir ly fr e e a c c e s s t o t h e

P r e s i d e n t ’s r e s id e n c e a n d Zu m a l e t h is M i n is t e r s
20

w a i ti n g f o r u s t o a t t e n d t h e m e e t i n g w i t h th e
G u p t a s . A t u l o n c e s h o w e d m e n e w s p a p e r c l ip p i n g s
o f P r e s i d e n t Z u m a d e fe n d i n g h i s fr i e n d s h i p w i t h t h e
G u p t a f a m i ly i n P a r li a m e n t .

Zuma was a force –

w a s fo r c e d t o p u b lic a l ly d e fe n d h is r e la t io n s h i p w i t h
t h e G u p t a ’s f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e s i n c e t h e p l a n e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
la n d i n g s c a n d a l d is m is s i n g a l l a ll e g a ti o n s a g a in s t
h i m i n r e la t i o n t o t h e G u p t a s a s r u m o u r s h e s a i d .
S e e I t o l d y o u t h e b o n d t h a t w e h a v e w it h t h e
P r e s i d e n t i s d e e p .”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s s a y in g th a t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th i s w a s A t u l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 4-2 now?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : “ T h e m e d i a a n d th e D A w i ll tr y i ts
b e s t t o c r e a te a r i ft b e t w e e n u s b u t – b u t h e w i ll
s t a n d b y u s l ik e a r o c k . Th e P r e s i d e n t w ill d e fe n d
a l w a y s h e s a id s h o w in g m e t h e n e w s p a p e r c l ip p i n g .
I fo u n d t h e d is c u s s io n o f c o m m e r c i a l is s u e s o f th e
N e w A g e a n d A N N 7 e n tr y i n . T h e r e h a v e b e e n a l o t
o f – t h e r e h a d b e e n a l o t o f n o is e a b o u t t h e N e w
A g e a n d th e w a y t h e G o v e r n m e n t s u p p o r t e d it a n d i t

20

s e e m e d t o m e t h a t t h e s e d i s c u s s i o n s w e r e p r o b a b ly
a r o u n d a s i m il a r k in d o f s u p p o r t f o r A N N 7 .”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d th is n o is e y o u w o u l d

have seen or heard yourself?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

No.

W h a t I s a y a b o u t th is n o i s e b a s ic a lly

on social media …

Page 92 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d s o m e s e c ti o n s o f t h e m a i n s t r e a m m e d i a
w o u ld a l s o s u g g e s t s o m e o f i t b u t m o s t ly o n s o c i a l m e d i a w h e r e t h e r e
w o u ld b e p e o p l e w h o a r e o p i n i o n m a k e r s w h o I w o u l d tr u s t w h o w o u ld
q u e s t io n h o w th is n e w s p a p e r w h i c h is n o t a u d it e d i n te r m s o f i ts
c ir c u l a ti o n w o u l d c o m m a n d a r a t e o f w h ic h i t d id a n d h o w t h e r e w e r e
c e r t a i n G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n ts a n d a g e n c i e s w h ic h w o u ld a c t u a l ly
g iv e i t t h e r a te s t h a t i t w a s c o m m a n d i n g d e s p i t e n o t h a v i n g a n y a u d i t e d
c ir c u l a ti o n fi g u r e s .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . S o th e n y o u
le f t t h e f ir s t m e e t in g . C o u ld y o u p le a s e t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t t h e
s e c o n d m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h e s e c o n d m e e t in g – I a m s o r r y I d o n o t

r e m e m b e r th e d a t e b u t i t w a s i n J u ly 2 0 1 3 . I t w a s a g a in a S u n d a y. S o
t h is w a s a d a y t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s r e la t iv e ly fr e e a n d h e a s k e d u s t o
c o m e in t h e m o r n in g . T h is t i m e ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e fi r s t m e e ti n g h a d b e e n i n J u n e y o u s a id . I s t h a t
r ig h t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t o n e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . O n t h e 2 2 n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e s e c o n d w a s i n J u l y ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J u ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s a n d t h e m e e ti n g w a s a t t e n d e d e x a c t ly

Page 93 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
b y t h e s a m e p e o p le w h i c h is A j a y a n d A t u l G u p t a .

There was

N a z e e m H o w a . T h e r e w a s M o e g s i e n W il li a m s . T h e r e w a s ( i n d is t in c t) .
I t w a s c o o r d in a t e d b y A s h u C h a w l a w h o a l s o s a t i n d u r i n g t h e m e e ti n g
a n d th is ti m e a r o u n d w e w e r e t o l d th a t w e w o u ld b e p i c k e d u p – i f I
r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly b y A s h u C h a w l a . S o – a n d t h e t h r u s t o f t h e s e c o n d
m e e ti n g w a s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h e fir s t m e e ti n g I t h in k y o u s a i d w a s o n
a Sunday?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Is t h a t r ig h t a n d th e s e c o n d m e e t in g w a s a ls o o n a

Sunday?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A ls o o n a S u n d a y, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B u t t h i s ti m e i n t h e m o n t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 3 .

I

do not remember the exact date because if I had not been – there was
li t tl e r e f e r e n c e t h a t I h a d f o r t h is .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h e r e d i d Mr C h a w la p i c k
you up?
20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

H e p ic k e d u s u p fr o m – fr o m t h e M i d r a n d

O ff ic e a n d w e m o v e d fr o m t h e r e – i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B e f o r e y o u w e n t t o t h e m e e t in g w e r e y o u t o l d w h a t

t h is m e e ti n g w a s in t e n d e d t o b e a b o u t?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O h w e w e r e t o l d t h a t i t w o u l d b e m u c h in

Page 94 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h e li n e s o f th e fi r s t m e e ti n g .

Th e r e w o u l d b e a r e v i e w o f w h a t h a d

happened so far and we were also told …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t a f o l lo w u p m e e ti n g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A fo ll o w u p m e e ti n g …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d a ls o th e r e w o u ld b e in p u ts t h a t w e g e t
fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t b a s e d o n p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w e h a d g i v e n h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A l s o s o m e g u id e l in e s o n e d i to r i a l m a t t e r s a s
10

w e ll . S o th a t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o m e t h in g th a t w a s t o l d .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u a n d t h a t is – t h a t is
what you deal with in paragraph 22 at page 17?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

S o t h e m e e ti n g r e v ie w e d t h e p r o g r e s s o f

v a r io u s a s p e c t s o f t h e p r o je c t l ik e t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f t h e s t u d io , th e
20

a r r iv a l o f b r o a d c a s t e q u ip m e n t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m s o r r y.

Do you remember around what time the

m e e ti n g w o u l d h a v e s t a r te d ? I t h i n k t h e fi r s t o n e y o u s a i d w a s f o r …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Wa s fo r 0 9 : 3 0 .
CHAIRPERSON :

09:30 but you came there and you waited for quite

ti m e b e fo r e i t s t a r t e d ?

Page 95 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . To t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e th is w a s
a ls o i n t h e m o r n in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: It was a morning appointment.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h e r e w a s a t h ir d a p p o i n t m e n t w h ic h I

r e m e m b e r d is t in c tly w a s i n th e e v e n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

Because that was the time w hen we were

told in the morning had he to leave.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

L e t u s j u s t t a lk a b o u t

e d i to r i a l p o li c y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Huh-uh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Who

would

o r d i n a r i ly

be

r e s p o n s i b l e fo r d e te r m i n in g e d i to r i a l p o li c y ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W h a t m o s t s t a ti o n s d o i s t h a t t h e y d o n o t

h a v e t h e e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y o n t h e f ly. I t i s a d o c u m e n t w h i c h is a lr e a d y
c r e a te d a n d w h ic h is th e B ib l e a s f a r a s w h a t j o u r n a li s ts n e e d t o f o l l o w.
20

T h a t t h e y d o n o t h a v e t o g o b a c k t o th e e d i t o r e v e r y t i m e t h e y h a v e –
you know – a decision to make.

I t is a d o c u m e n t t h a t is to b e k e p t

r e a d y a n d g i v e n t o e a c h n e w r e c r u i t w h o c o m e s i n a n d i t s h o u ld f a c t o r
in t h i n g s lik e h o w t h e n e w s s h o u l d – t h e r e s h o u l d b e a s e n s e o f
b a l a n c e i n th e n e w s .

I f t h e r e a r e t h r e e p a r t i e s t o a p a r tic u l a r n e w s

story that you are doing.

A ll t h r e e s h o u l d b e g iv e n a d e q u a te

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n in t h e n e w s r e p o r t th a t i s t h e r e i n t e r m s o f t h e ir
comment.

I f t h e r e is – t h e r e a r e c h a r g e s b r o u g h t o u t a g a i n s t a

p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n t h e n h e s h o u l d b e g iv e n a r i g h t t o r e s p o n d to t h o s e
c h a r g e s . I f h e d o e s n o t r e s p o n d t h e n t h a t s h o u ld b e e n t e r e d i n to t h e
t h i n g s – y o u k n o w. S o t h in g s l ik e th is w h i c h w o u l d e n s u r e a b a l a n c e a
s e n s e o f n e u tr a l it y a r e p a r t o f t h e e d i to r i a l p o l ic y b u t – b u t w h a t I f o u n d
h e r e w a s th a t i t w a s m o r e o f a p r o p a g a n d a s t a ti o n t h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o
s e t u p r a t h e r th a n a p r o f e s s i o n a l t e l e v is i o n s t a ti o n f o r n e w s b e c a u s e
r ig h t i n t h is m e e t i n g w e w e r e t o l d th a t t h is s h o u l d b e a s t a ti o n t h a t
10

s h o u l d n o t ju s t b e c e n tr e d a r o u n d t h e A f r i c a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s b u t t o
t h e c lo s e ( in d i s ti n c t) a r o u n d Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a .

So he would tell us

t h i n g s li k e h o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n , h a n g o n Mr S u n d a r a m . I t h i n k th e q u e s ti o n
is o r d in a r il y w h o w o u l d b e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r f o r m u la t in g e d i to r i a l p o li c y ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I t w il l h a v e t o b e th e – t h e e d i t o r a n d t h e

s e n i o r e d i to r i a l t e a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d n o b o d y e l s e . Th e p r o f e s s i o n a l e d i t o r s
t h e jo u r n a li s ts .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t a s fa r a s y o u k n o w is u n iv e r s a l ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a l m o s t u n iv e r s a l ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Ja that should be the case …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : F o r m o s t p r o fe s s i o n a l …

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S t a ti o n s a n d n e w s p a p e r s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Okay and that has been your experience in the

v a r io u s …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Media houses …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In w h ic h y o u h a v e w o r k e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A b s o l u t e ly y e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. Ms N o r m a n y o u c a n p r o c e e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n a n d
a ls o b e c a u s e y o u a s a c o n s u l ti n g e d i t o r a n d t h e e d i t o r i a l t e a m y o u
w o u ld b e r e s p o n s ib le f o r th e e d i to r i a l p o li c y. Yo u w o u l d a ls o m a k e s u r e
t h a t y o u m a k e s u r e th a t t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f – o f t h e m e d ia j o u r n a li s m
a n d e v e r y t h i n g e l s e a n d e t h i c a l is s u e s t o b e a d h e r e d t o w o u l d b e
in c o r p o r a t e d i n th a t p o lic y. A m I r ig h t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e l l I – w h e n I c a m e in h e r e I w a s t o l d th a t
t h e e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y is s o m e t h i n g th a t I s h o u l d n o t b e l o o k i n g a t . I t w a s
a lr e a d y d e c i d e d b y th e N e w s A g e E d i t o r ia l P o l ic y a n d w e w o u l d b e

20

f o ll o w i n g th e s a m e t h i n g . S o – s o f o r m e I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t i m e th a t m y
r o l e i n t h is s t a ti o n w o u l d b e in t e r m s o f j u s t s e t ti n g i t u p a n d I h a d
d e c i d e d p r e t ty e a r ly o n th a t I w o u ld le a v e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o
p o s i ti o n fo r a n e d i t o r i n t h is s ta t io n . T h e y j u s t w a n te d a r u b b e r s t a m p
w h ic h I t h o u g h t I w o u l d n o t b e b u t w e w e r e – I w a s t o ld c le a r ly th a t
t h e y w o u ld b e fo ll o w i n g a n e d i to r i a l p o l ic y w h ic h w a s s o m e t h in g t h a t

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w a s f o u n d o n t h e w e b s i t e o f th e N e w A g e a n d th a t i s p r e t ty m u c h w h a t
it w o u ld b e a n d o f c o u r s e th e r e w a s g u i d a n c e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s
s u p p o s e d to g i v e u s w h e r e h e s a id t h a t t h is w o u ld b e a s t a ti o n t h a t
w o u ld n o t j u s t l o o k a t th e A N C a n d – a n d p r o p a g a t e i t o u t o f t h e s t o r y
b u t w i th in t h e A N C t h e t e a m – t h e ( in d is ti n c t) o f P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s t o
b e h ig h li g h t e d a n d p u t o u t .

I a m s u r e h e s a i d th a t w e s h o u ld n o t

e n g a g e i n a n y d ir e c t p r o p a g a n d a in t e r m s o f n e g a t iv e s t o r i e s a g a i n s t
t h e r iv a ls .
fashion.
10

T h e y s h o u ld – h e s a i d th a t i t w o u l d b e d o n e i n a s u b tl e
S o t h a t - y o u k n o w – t h e c r e d ib il it y o f th e s t a t i o n i s a ls o

m a in t a i n e d a n d a t t h e s a m e t i m e – y o u k n o w – y o u d o th e p r o p a g a n d a
t h a t i s i n te n d e d b e h i n d th e s t a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u s e th e w o r d “ g u i d a n c e ” . Is th a t y o u r o w n w o r d
o r is t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e t o ld t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s g o in g g iv e ? I s i t
y o u r o w n w o r d th a t y o u a t t a c h t o w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d h e w a s g o i n g t o
g iv e o r i s i t t h e w o r d th a t w a s u s e d t o te ll y o u w h a t h e w o u l d d o ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B a la n c e ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : G u id a n c e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W h ic h w o r d ?
CHAIRPERSON : I thought – guidance. I thought you said …

20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Ja guidance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e to l d t h a t …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

Yo u s e e w e w e r e to l d – y o u k n o w -

b e c a u s e A j a y G u p t a w o u l d s a y p l e a s e lis t e n to th e Pr e s id e n t c a r e fu ll y
b e c a u s e w e w o u l d w a n t t o c o n v e y to h i m o r w e w a n t – w e w o u l d w a n t
t h e P r e s i d e n t t o k n o w th a t w e v a l u e w h a t h e is s a y i n g v e r y m u c h . S o

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h e m e s s a g e t h a t g o e s to t h e Pr e s id e n t is th a t w e a r e f o ll o w i n g h is
g u i d e li n e s . T h a t h e is t h e b o s s . W e a r e f o ll o w i n g h is g u i d e li n e s b u t b u t h e w o u ld a ls o te ll m e th a t w e d o n o t h a v e to l is t e n t o e v e r y t h in g
t h a t h e s a y s . Yo u k n o w – w e j u s t n e e d t o t e ll h i m to h i s fa c e t h a t - y o u
k n o w – w e a r e g o in g b y w h a t h e – w h a t h e s a i d b u t if w e l ik e i t w e t a k e
it .

I f w e d o n o t w e d o n o t b u t w h ic h m e a n t t h a t – I m e a n h a d n o

in d e p e n d e n t d e c i s i o n m a k i n g a u t h o r i t y in t h a t . I t is i f th e G u p t a s li k e d
it t h e y w o u l d t a k e i t .

If t h e y n o t th e y w o u l d n o t b u t t o h is f a c e t h e y

w o u ld s a y s ir th is is w h a t is s u g g e s t e d a n d th is is w h a t y o u a r e d o i n g .
10

S o th a t is t h e i d e a t h a t I h a d a b o u t i t a n d o f c o u r s e P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s
g u i d a n c e i s s o m e t h in g th a t th e y w a n t e d m e a s th e e d i to r t o l is te n t o
a n d i m p l e m e n t b u t s u b je c t t o fi n a l a p p r o v a l fr o m t h e G u p t a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N
M r C h a ir m a n .

SC:

Thank

you.

Thank

you

T h e n s o th e s e c o n d m e e t i n g t h e n – b e c a u s e y o u h a d

g iv e n t h e fo r m P r e s i d e n t th e p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d t h e n w h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d
t h e n a t t h is m e e ti n g . Yo u h a v e m e n t io n e d th a t th e e d it o r i a l p o lic y w a s
o n e o f t h e m a t t e r s t h a t w e d is c u s s e d …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d w a s th a t p r e s e n t a ti o n d e a lt
w i t h a t th e s e c o n d m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I think there were certain things that he

b r o u g h t o u t th e r e – y o u k n o w.

S o f o r i n s t a n c e t h e e d it o r i a l p o li c y i s

o n e a n d if I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y t h e r e w e r e – y o u k n o w - I h a v e q u o t e d
e x t e n s iv e ly f r o m – fr o m m y b o o k …

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d t h is a s w e l l a n d I w a n t to r e f e r t o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u c a n d e a l w i t h i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n d e a l w i th i t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t f i n e w i t h y o u M s N o r m a n ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s t h a n k y o u C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : M a y b e f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s y o u r
e x tr a c t is o n p a g e s 11 7 t o 1 2 2 o f y o u r b o o k .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : Maybe – maybe we have not – he has not said what
h is b o o k is o n r e c o r d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O n r e c o r d y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Maybe you should ask him to …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O h th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y w h a t – t o i d e n t if y h is b o o k .

20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . J u s t t o g i v e t h e ti tl e . I a m
s u r e y o u k n o w i t o ff b y h e a r t . C o u l d y o u j u s t .. . ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e ti tl e o f t h e b o o k ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h e ti t le o f t h e b o o k i s :

B e h i n d t h e Sc e n e s a t G u p t a T V .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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In d e n t u r e d –

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : And you are the author?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s a n d i t i s p u b l is h e d b y J a c a n a M e d i a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n y o u c o n fir m t h e

c o n te n ts o f t h e b o o k …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A s b e i n g tr u e a n d c o r r e c t …
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A c c o r d i n g t o y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o I h a v e g i v e n d e ta il s h e r e a b o u t h o w w e
w e r e p ic k e d u p b y A s h u C h a w l a a n d ta k e n .

Then also about how the

s e a ti n g a r r a n g e m e n t th e r e w a s id e n tic a l ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t .
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e l l t h e s a m e p e o p l e w h o a tt e n d e d t h e f ir s t
m e e ti n g a t te n d e d t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g . T h e s e a ti n g w a s i d e n ti c a l . Yo u
k n o w - t h e r e w a s a c h a ir t h a t r e s e r v e d f o r th e Pr e s i d e n t . Th e H e a d o f
t h e G u p ta d e l e g a t io n w a s M o e g s i e n W il li a m s b e c a u s e h e w a s th e o l d e s t
m e m b e r o f t h e ( i n d is ti n c t) a s k e d to s i t o n t h e c h a ir n e x t t o t h e
P r e s i d e n t f o l l o w e d b y N a z e e m H o w a . To t h e r i g h t o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t t h e

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G u p t a b r o t h e r s s a t o n a c o u c h a n d a c r o s s t h e t a b l e fr o m th e c o u c h
( in d is ti n c t) a n d I s a t f a c in g th e G u p t a b r o t h e r s a n d th e Pr e s i d e n t a n d …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Just before you move forward

y o u s a y t h a t in p a r a g r a p h 2 4 th is w a s l ik e a s h a r e h o l d e r s r e v ie w
m e e ti n g .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s i t w a s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h y d o y o u s a y th a t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B e c a u s e – y o u k n o w – it w a s a r e v i e w

m e e ti n g b e c a u s e i n t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g w e s h o w e d h i m th e lo g o t h a t h a d
10

b e e n d e s i g n e d b y t h e d e s i g n e r i n I n d i a a n d t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g w e to o k
t o h i m t h e a n i m a t e d l o g o w h ic h h a d t h e m u s i c a n d th e s t in g a n d a l l o f
t h a t – y o u k n o w. S o th a t i s – t h a t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t p l a y s o u t o n t h e
t o p o f th e h o u r b e f o r e e a c h – e a c h b u l le t i n s t a r ts . S o w e t o o k t h a t t o
h i m f o r h is a p p r o v a l . A l t h o u g h t h e c o n t r a c t w i t h t h e p e r s o n w h o m a d e
that design was that he just have one – one shot at it and – you know –
if i t is a p p r o v e d .

S o i f t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d s a i d th a t h e d i d n o t lik e it

t h e r e w a s n o w a y t h a t t h e y c o u l d g o b a c k a n d g e t i t d o n e a g a in b u t
t h e y – th e y g o t i t t o h i m f o r h is a p p r o v a l .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
20

Ye s .

Is th e r e a n y th i n g y o u

w a n t t o h i g h li g h t b e t w e e n th e in t e r a c ti o n y o u h a d w i t h M r A s h u C h a w l a
w h e n y o u w e r e p r o c e e d – s o r r y – I fo r g o t th a t p a r t w h e n y o u w e r e
p r o c e e d i n g t o t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffic ia l r e s i d e n c e . Is th e r e a n y t h i n g y o u
w a n t h i g h li g h t a b o u t th e i n t e r a c ti o n s y o u h a d w i t h h i m in h is c a r ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

He was somebody who was always edgy –

y o u k n o w. H e w a s s o m e b o d y w h o w a s a l w a y s p r e o c c u p i e d . Yo u k n o w

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h a t t h e r e w e r e 1 0 t h i n g s g o i n g o n i n h is m in d a n d h i s h a n d s h a k e s w e r e
n o t – y o u k n o w – t h e y w e r e li m p h a n d s h a k e s t h a t h e w o u l d g iv e o u t t o
p e o p l e a l m o s t d i s t r a c te d a t a l l t i m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h o w a s t h a t ? I m is s e d th a t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Mr Ashu Chawla.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o – a n d h e t o ld u s a b o u t h o w h e h a d l iv e d
in S o u th A fr ic a fo r a b o u t 1 7 y e a r s r i g h t fr o m t h e t i m e a n d – a t t h a t t i m e
10

f o r 1 7 y e a r s – r i g h t fr o m t h e t i m e w h e n A t u l G u p t a h a d c o m e t o S o u th
A fr ic a t o s e t u p S a h a r a C o m p u te r s h e h a d b e e n p a r t o f t h e t e a m .

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h a v e a ls o n o t e d th a t – y o u k n o w – r a r e l y s m i le d b u t w h e n h e s p o k e
a b o u t h is a s s o c i a ti o n w i th A t u l G u p t a th a t w a s a d i a m o n d . W e a c t u a l ly
s a w h i m s m il e a t t h a t p o in t a n d h e a l s o s a i d t h a t h e s a w h i m s e l f a s a
r e g u la r S o u th A f r i c a n b e c a u s e h e h a d li v e d h e r e f o r s o lo n g b u t h is
in t e r e s t i n m u s ic w a s v e r y fu n n y b e c a u s e t h is w a s th e k in d o f r a u n c h y
m u s ic t h a t is in t h e – in B o ll y w o o d f il m s a n d h e w o u ld p la y t h a t o u t l o u d
in h is c a r s t e r e o . S o – s o fr o m w h a t w e s a w o f h i m h e w a s s o m e b o d y
w h o w a s e x tr e m e ly s h y.
20

H e w a s a b a c k r o o m o p e r a to r f o r th e G u p t a

f a m ily a n d n o t s o m e b o d y w h o w a s o p e n t o a n s w e r i n g t o o m a n y
q u e s t io n s o r g e t ti n g - e n g a g i n g i n s m a ll t a lk .

J u s t i f h e i s d r iv in g h e

ju s t k e e p s d r i v i n g a n d a n s w e r i n g in m o n o s y ll a b l e s .

So he was – he

w a s li k e a k i n d o f p e r s o n a n d w e c o u ld a l m o s t s e e t h a t h e w a s v e r y
n e r v o u s a b o u t t h is m e e ti n g b e c a u s e h e w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s
c h a r g e d w i th c o o r d i n a t i n g th is m e e ti n g . S o fr o m m a k in g s u r e t h a t t h e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
v e h ic l e s – t h e v e h i c l e n u m b e r s w e r e g i v e n t o t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffi c e
b e f o r e h a n d t o m a k in g s u r e th e p e o p l e w e r e p ic k e d u p , y o u k n o w, t h a t
w a s c o - o r d i n a te d t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t w a s t h e r e w h e n t h e
G u p t a f a m il y – b r o th e r s a r r i v e d , a ll o f t h a t w a s p a r t o f h is r e s p o n s ib il i ty
a n d t h a t s e e m e d t o , y o u k n o w, k in d o f k e e p h i m in a s t a te w h ic h w a s
a l w a y s p r e - o c c u p i e d a n d – s o w h e n h e a n s w e r e d q u e s ti o n s i t w a s
a l m o s t li k e h i s m i n d w a s n o t t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 5 . 6

w h ic h y o u a l r e a d y te s ti fi e d t o .
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : B u t t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u
say Rajesh said to you.
MR RAJESH

SUNDARAM :

Ye s , t h e s e a t i n g a r r a n g e m e n t s I

( in d is ti n c t) t o th a t f o r th e la s t m e e t i n g , R a j e s h ( in d is ti n c t) P r e s i d e n t t o
g iv e u s a b r o a d o v e r v i e w o f e d i t o r i a l p o li c y a n d a ls o s o m e s u g g e s ti o n s
o n w h o w e s h o u l d h i r e a s p r e s e n te r s . W e w i ll h e a r w h a t h e h a s t o s a y
b u t w e w i ll n o t h a v e t o d o – b u t w e w i ll o n ly d o w h a t w e th i n k s u i ts o u r
v is io n , A j a y G u p t a to l d u s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

S o a ls o a b o u t t h e p r e s e n te r s th e r e w a s a

p r o b le m b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e m a n y j o u r n a lis ts w h o w o u l d n o t c o n s i d e r
jo in i n g ( i n d is ti n c t) a n d t h e k in d o f r e p u ta ti o n th a t th e G u p t a ’s h a d s o
t h e y – t h a t w a s a n is s u e t h a t t h e y w a n t e d to t a k e to t h e P r e s id e n t a n d
s e e k s u g g e s t i o n s fr o m h i m o n w h o t h e y s h o u ld h ir e a n d th e P r e s i d e n t
did

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Page 105 of 225

he

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fe w

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s i n c l u d in g J i m m y M a n y i w h o h e s a id w a s a p e r f e c t fi t
f o r th is k i n d o f p o s i ti o n a n d h e s a i d th a t y o u s h o u l d c a l l h i m t o t h e
s t u d i o to a u d i ti o n a n d i f it w o r k s o u t h e s h o u ld d e fi n i t e l y b e h ir e d . H e
a ls o s u g g e s t e d a f e w o t h e r n a m e s , I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h o s e n a m e s b u t
s o m e o f th e m , I r e m e m b e r w e r e p e o p le w h o w e r e s o n s a n d d a u g h t e r s o f
h is c o l l e a g u e s o f t h e A N C w h o h e s a i d h a d g o o d p o te n ti a l a n d a lr e a d y
w o r k i n g a s j o u r n a li s ts a t r a d io s ta t io n s a n d h e s a i d , y o u s h o u ld g iv e
t h e m a c a l l , t e l l t h e m th a t I t o l d y o u t o g e t in t o u c h w i t h t h e m a n d g e t
t h e s e t h in g s u n d e r w a y. S o t h a t w a s a ls o , y o u k n o w, p r o b l e m s o lv i n g i n
10

t h a t s e n s e . T h e p r o b le m w a s t h a t t h e j o u r n a l is ts w e r e n o t jo i n i n g a n d
t h e y t o o k t h e p r o b le m t o t h e P r e s i d e n t in th a t m e e ti n g a n d h e
s u g g e s t e d th a t h e w o u l d r e c o m m e n d a f e w n a m e s a n d w e c o u l d
a p p r o a c h a f e w o t h e r jo u r n a li s ts w h o h e k n e w v e r y w e ll a n d s a y t h a t
t h e P r e s i d e n t a s k e d u s t o s p e a k w i t h y o u a n d w i ll y o u c o m e a n d j o i n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 2 5 . 7
y o u d e a l w i t h w h a t t h e g r a p h ic d e s i g n e r s h a d g i v e n y o u .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s , y e s s o w e p l a y e d o u t th a t g r a p h i c

d e s i g n a n d y o u k n o w a n d h e s e e m e d t o b e i m p r e s s e d w i th t h e g r a p h ic
d e s i g n a s w e l l s o w e l o a d e d a c o p y o n t h e la p to p a n d w e s h o w e d it to
20

him.
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y M s N o r m a n d id y o u a s k h i m t o d e a l w i t h

25.7.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s I’ m a s k in g h i m t o d e a l w i t h
it t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON :

O h o k a y.

Page 106 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : M a y b e …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A s i t w a s j u s t a f o r m a li ty a n d w e w e r e n o t

b o u n d b y w h a t h e w a s s a y in g , I w a s h a p p y to p l a y t h e g a m e t h e y w e r e
p l a y in g w i th th e p r e s i d e n t , I n o t e d – ja s o I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t o m a k e
o f i t a t th a t t i m e y o u k n o w b e c a u s e th e s e w e r e c o n tr a d i c to r y t h i n g s t h a t
h e w a s t e l li n g i s t h a t o n e , w e w i ll g o t o t h e P r e s i d e n t , s e e k a n
a p p o i n t m e n t a n d a s k h i m w h a t t h e ( i n d is t i n c t) p o l ic y s h o u l d b e o n th e
g u i d e li n e s t h a t h e w a n t e d f o r t h e t e l e v is i o n s t a ti o n , o n t h e o t h e r h a n d
h e ’s te ll i n g u s , b u t w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o li s t e n t o a ll o f t h a t, j u s t g iv e h i m a
10

s e n s e th a t w e ’r e l is t e n in g t o h i m b u t w e d o n ’t r e a lly h a v e to li s te n t o
h i m , y o u k n o w, i f w e , i n o u r j u d g e m e n t t h i n k t h a t w h a t th e Pr e s i d e n t
s a i d is w r o n g w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o t e ll h i m i t’s w r o n g o n h is f a c e y o u k n o w,
w e w i ll g o b a c k a n d d o w h a t w e w a n t …( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
CHAIRPERSON :

Is t h a t w h a t y o u c a ll i n p a r a g r a p h 2 5 . 7 o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t , s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a t e m e n t , is t h a t w h a t y o u c a l l t h e g a m e
t h e y w e r e p la y i n g w it h t h e P r e s i d e n t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

J a s o i t w a s a g a m e t h a t I t h o u g h t th e y

w e r e p l a y i n g w it h t h e P r e s i d e n t , y o u k n o w, w e ’r e g o in g a n d s e e k in g a n
a p p o i n t m e n t w i t h h i m a s k i n g h i m f o r h is v i e w s a n d th e n s a y i n g th a t w e l l
20

w e w o n ’ t d o i t s o w h y b o th e r in t h e f ir s t p l a c e . O f c o u r s e b y n o w I’ d
k n o w n t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s s o n w a s a s h a r e h o l d e r a n d w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g w a s a r e v i e w. S o w h i l e t h e y v a lu e d h i m a s a p a r tn e r in t h i s ,
t h e y w a n te d t o s h o w t h a t t h e y v a l u e d h i m a s a p a r t n e r, b u t n o n e o f t h e
a d v ic e th a t w a s g i v e n w a s – i t d id n ’t r e a l ly m a t t e r, s o t h e y s a i d , t a k e
t h e a d v i c e i f y o u l ik e i t , y o u k n o w, i f i t ’s i m p l e m e n t a b l e w e ’l l d o i t

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
o th e r w i s e j u s t th r o w i t in t o t h e d u s t b i n a n d w e ’ ll d o w h a t w e w a n t t o d o
a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t , a t t h e n e x t m e e t in g w h e n w e c a m e b a c k , y o u k n o w,
w h a t e v e r w a s p o s s i b l e w h ic h w e w e r e d o i n g a n y w a y s , th e y w o u l d s h o w
t o t h e Pr e s id e n t, s e e lik e y o u s a i d w e a r e d o in g t h is , lik e y o u s a i d w e
a r e d o i n g t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you. So then you said

t h e n y o u l o a d e d t h is – i s t h i s t h e l o g o ( in d i s t in c t ) .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t y o u w e r e w o r k i n g o n .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s s o Pr e s id e n t – o k a y a t t h a t ti m e w e

lo a d e d o n t h e ( i n d is ti n c t) b e f o r e th a t m e e ti n g A s h r a f J a ff e r s a i d t h e r e
w e r e a lo t o f p e o p l e fr o m th e Pr e s id e n t’s f a m ily w h o w e r e v is i ti n g h i m
s o – a n d t h a t h e w o u ld b e jo i n i n g u s v e r y s h o r t ly w h i le w e w a i ti n g i n
t h e v e r y s a m e r o o m w h i c h is t o t h e r i g h t o f th e e n tr a n c e – i t w a s a
r o o m w h i c h h a d t h e s e a ti n g a r r a n g e m e n t a n d o n th e c o r n e r o f w h i c h
t h e r e w a s a n e l e c t r ic s o c k e t o n w h ic h A s h r a f w o u l d c h a r g e h i s p h o n e a t
a l l t i m e s . S o t h e P r e s i d e n t a r r i v e d s h o r tly a n d t h is w a s a t i m e w h e n h e
h a d a l o t o f fa m i ly m e m b e r s o n a S u n d a y w a i t in g f o r h i m i n h i s r o o m
20

a n d h e t o o k ti m e o u t o f a f a m ily e n g a g e m e n t o n a S u n d a y t o c o m e a n d
s p e n d ti m e h e r e a n d a s f a r a s I r e m e m b e r … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

I ’ m s o r r y w a s t h e r e m u c h w a i ti n g fo r t h e m e e ti n g t o

s t a r t th is ti m e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s m u c h w a i ti n g ,

t h e fi r s t m e e t in g th e r e w a s a n d A j a y w a s g e t ti n g i m p a ti e n t b u t I d o n ’t

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e m e m b e r fo r t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g t h e r e w a s m u c h o f t h in g b u t I d o
r e m e m b e r th a t t h e r e w e r e fa m i ly m e m b e r s w i th h i m a t t h a t t i m e a n d h e
t o o k ti m e th a t h e w a s s p e n d i n g w i t h h i s f a m il y w h ic h h e ’ d a ll o c a te d f o r
h is f a m ily o u t .

I n th e f ir s t m e e ti n g it w a s ti m e t h a t h e w a s s p e n d i n g

w i t h h is c a b i n e t c o ll e a g u e s w h i c h h e t o o k o u t a n d c a m e h e r e , h e r e h e
m a d e h is fa m i ly w a i t a n d c o m e o u t f o r t h is m e e ti n g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d 2 5 . 9 y o u t a lk a b o u t w h e n

t h e p r e s i d e n t t h e n a r r iv e d .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

Ye s t h e Pr e s i d e n t t h e n a r r iv e d s h o r tly

t h e r e a f te r a n d h e w a s s h o w n t h e c h a n n e l I D , h e w a s a s k e d t o s e e – s o
h e – t h e P r e s id e n t s a w i t o n c e , n o w w h a t th e s e c h a n n e l ID ’s a r e ,
t h e y ’r e ju s t a fe w s e c o n d s l o n g b e t w e e n 1 5 a n d 3 0 s e c o n d s , s o i f y o u
saw it once you may have missed some of the elements so the
President saw it three, maybe four times and you know he would pause
it a n d s e e i t a g a i n t o s e e w h a t t h e tr a n s i ti o n s a n d t h e g r a p h i c s w e r e ,
a ls o t h e m u s ic t h a t w e a d d e d to t h e g r a p h ic a l e l e m e n ts w h e t h e r t h e y
w e r e in s y n c , h e w o u l d s to p a n d s t a r t a n d a s k u s t o p l a y i t a g a i n a n d
t h e n h e g a v e u s a p p r o v a l a n d h e h a d a c o p y o f t h e p r e s e n ta t io n w h ic h
w e h a d g iv e n h i m t h e la s t ti m e a n d h e s a i d h e h a d s t u d i e d i t a n d h e

20

s a i d h e h a d a fe w s u g g e s t io n s t h a t h e w a n t e d t o g iv e u s b a s e d o n t h a t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n i n 2 5 .1 0 w h o s a id
y o u m u s t n ’ t c o n v e r t t h i s i n t o a c h a n n e l fo r t h e A N C ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h i s i s P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s a d v ic e o n

e d i to r i a l p o l ic y w e l l h e s a i d t h a t it s h o u l d b e a c h a n n e l t h a t , y o u k n o w –
I t h in k t h e g e n e r a l u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t t h e m a in s tr e a m m e d ia in

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
S o u th A fr ic a w a s n o t g iv in g a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o c o m e o u t w i t h th e A N C ’s
v ie w s , P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s v i e w s th a t t h e y w e r e a m ic a b l e i n s o m e s e n s e s
t o h i m , s o t h e y n e e d e d a s t a ti o n t h a t w o u l d c o m e o u t a n d p r o p a g a t e h i s
s id e o f th e A N C s i d e o f n e w s e v e n ts .

N o w h a v i n g s a i d th a t , th e

P r e s i d e n t d i d n o t w a n t th is t o b e a n o u t a n d o u t p r o p a g a n d a s t a ti o n , h e
w a n t e d it t o h a v e ( in d i s ti n c t) o f c r e d ib il i t y.

S o h e s a i d th a t i t s h o u ld

n o t b lo c k o u t r iv a ls w i t h th e A N C i t s h o u l d n o t b lo c k o u t p o l i tic a l p a r t ie s
w h ic h w e r e r iv a l s t o th e A N C a s w e l l . S o th e r e s h o u l d b e , y o u k n o w –
h e s a i d t h a t t h e p u s h i n o u r f a v o u r s h o u l d b e s u b tl e , t h e p u s h i n t h e
10

f a v o u r o f t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) a r o u n d h i m a n d t h e A N C s h o u l d b e s u b t l e . S o
if a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t is r iv a l s , i t ’s n o t li k e y o u b l a c k t h e m o u t e n tir e l y o r
b l o c k t h e ir c o n t e n t e n t ir e ly b u t i t s h o u ld b e t h a t y o u s h o w t h e m , s h o w
t h e m i n a n e g a t iv e l ig h t s o th a t , i n th e s u b t le t ie s th e m e s s a g e i s
c o n v e y e d a n d y o u d o n ’ t s a y i t w it h t h e w o r d s d ir e c t ly s o i t d o e s n ’ t lo o k
lik e n o t ( i n d i s t i n c t) p r o p a g a n d a s t a ti o n a s w e ll .

S o th is i s s o m e t h in g

t h a t h e s a i d d i r e c t ly a n d th is t i m e h e m a d e a r e f e r e n c e t o E N C a n d s a i d
t h a t t h e E N C o n ly p r e s e n t s th e

g o v e r n m e n t a n d h i m n e g a t iv e ly t h a t’s

t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t h e h a d w h e n h e w a s s p e a k i n g t o m e .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n ju s t r e a d t h e l a s t
20

s e n te n c e a s w e ll o f t h a t – w h a t y o u ju s t r e a d n e g a ti v e ly, a f t e r th a t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e n e e d a c h a n n e l t h a t p r e s e n ts t h e

p o s i ti v e s t h a t t h e g o v e r n m e n t i s d o i n g , Z u m a s a i d , l o o k i n g a t m e . N o w
I m u s t a d d h e r e a ls o t h a t t h is is s o m e th i n g w h ic h w a s o n th e w e b s i te o f
t h e N e w A g e in t e r m s o f w h a t t h e ir e d i t o r i a l p o li c y w a s . T h e y s a i d t h a t
t h e y w o u l d l o o k a t c o n s t r u c t iv e c r i ti c i s m s o – w h ic h is n o t w h a t a n e w s

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s t a ti o n i s s u p p o s e d to – a n e w s s t a ti o n is s u p p o s e d t o s h o w – is t o
q u e s t io n p o w e r, to s h o w a m ir r o r t o a u t h o r i ty, t h a t ’s w h a t a s ta t io n is
s u p p o s e d to d o , n o t j u s t s h o w t h e p o s i tiv e s id e s o f t h i n g s b u t l ik e I s a i d
b y t h i s t i m e I h a d a lr e a d y k n o w n th a t t h i s is n o t a s t a ti o n t h a t I w a n t t o
a s s o c i a t e – a l t h o u g h I w a s g e t ti n g a fa n t a s ti c s a la r y a n d e v e r y ti m e I
w o u ld m e n ti o n t h i s t o a n y o f t h e s e n i o r g u y s , th e y ’ d t e l l m e , o h y o u ’ r e
g e t t in g a f a t s a l a r y j u s t s i t o n th a t fa n c y c h a ir a n d , y o u k n o w e n j o y y o u r
li fe w h y w o u l d y o u d o t h a t b u t fo r – f r o m t h e s t a ti o n s t h a t I’ d w o r k e d i n
b e f o r e , t h e k i n d o f jo u r n a li s m t h a t I b e li e v e d in , t h is k i n d o f th in g i s
10

s o m e t h i n g w h ic h m a d e m e d e c i d e p r e t ty e a r l y o n t h a t I w o u l d n o t w a n t
t o b e i n t h e s t a ti o n fo r m u c h l o n g e r t h a n a ft e r l a u n c h . A n d w h y d i d I
w a n t t o s ta y ti ll a f te r l a u n c h , b e c a u s e I’ d a lr e a d y, o n m y o w n c r e d i b il it y
a n d r e p u t a ti o n h a d a s k e d o t h e r s e n io r j o u r n a li s t s fr o m I n d ia t o c o m e
a n d jo in t h e s t a ti o n w h o h a d c o m e , n o t o n ly t h e m s e lv e s b u t w it h t h e ir
f a m i li e s a n d g o t t h e ir c h il d r e n i n s c h o o l a n d f o r m e to n o w ju m p o ff
b e f o r e th e l a u n c h w o u ld h a v e b e e n n o t t h e r i g h t t h in g to d o a t th a t ti m e
b u t I h a d d e c i d e d t h e n t h a t t h is is n o t a s t a ti o n t h a t I h a d a n y l o n g - t e r m
p l a n s fo r a n d th a t I w o u l d q u i t , s o a ll o f t h is w a s ju s t r e - e n f o r c in g t h a t
b e li e f fo r m e .

20

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , j u s t – a s a l a y p e r s o n , i s
it p o s s i b l e f o r a jo u r n a li s t to d o w h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d t o d o i n t h a t
p a r a g r a p h , l o o k y o u p o r tr a y e d c e r ta i n t h i n g s in a p a r t ic u l a r w a y a n d
y o u p o r tr a y o th e r th i n g s i n a p a r t ic u l a r w a y t o p e r h a p s p u s h a
p a r t ic u l a r n a r r a t iv e . I s i t p o s s i b l e fo r jo u r n a li s t s t o a c t u a ll y d o t h a t?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e l l t h e y s h o u l d n ’ t b e d o in g t h a t b u t I’ m

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s u r e i f s o m e b o d y t h i n k s th a t t h e ir j o b a t a s ta t io n d e p e n d s o n d o i n g
t h is a n d t h e y h a d n o o t h e r o p ti o n , t h e r e a r e j o u r n a l is ts w h o w o u ld b e
f o r c e d to d o th is , I m e a n , t h e r e w o u ld b e s o m e w h o w o u l d r e fu s e to d o
it a n d j u s t m o v e o u t b u t i f i t is b e t w e e n u n e m p lo y m e n t a n d e c o n o m ic
h a r d s h ip s a t t h e o t h e r e n d o r c o m p r o m i s i n g o n y o u r v a l u e s , t h e r e w o u l d
b e c e r t a i n j o u r n a li s ts w h o w o u l d b e w i ll in g t o d o t h is a s w e ll .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n d u r i n g y o u r ti m e

a t A N 7 , I k n o w I ’ m j u m p i n g a b i t , w o u l d y o u s a y t h a t w h a te v e r i t is a s
t h e e d i t o r a t t h e ti m e , w h a t e v e r i t is t h a t w a s s o l d t o t h e p u b l ic o r s e n t
10

o u t p u b l ic a l ly fr o m t h a t T V s t a ti o n , w a s r e l ia b le n e w s a n d y o u d id n o t
d o t h i n g s th e w a y i n w h i c h 2 5 . 1 0 s u g g e s t e d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I w o u l d s a y t h a t m y r o l e a s a n e d i to r w a s

for about a few weeks af ter the launch and most of my time was taken
u p in s e t ti n g u p t h e s t a ti o n . S o y o u k n o w, i t w a s r e a ll y a s tr u g g l e , o n
t h e o n e h a n d s e t t in g th e s t a t i o n , tr a i n i n g t h e s t a ff , g e t ti n g t h e
p r o c e s s e s i n p la c e a n d o n t h e o th e r h a n d d e a li n g w i t h A t u l G u p t a w h o ’s
lik e a d r a g o n b r e a th in g o n my s h o u l d e r a b o u t h o w th i n g s h a d to b e
d o n e f a s t a n d a l l o f t h a t . Th e r e w a s a tr e m e n d o u s a m o u n t o f p r e s s u r e
t h a t h e w a s p u tt i n g o n t h e t e c h n ic a l t e a m . I n m y e x p e r i e n c e a s ta t io n
20

s h o u l d b e l a u n c h e d o n ly a f te r a b o u t a m o n th o f d r y r u n s . W e d id a l o t
o f m u g s , l ik e fo r i n s t a n c e , t h e g r a p h i c s y s t e ms w o u l d b e m a d e in
E u r o p e s o m e w h e r e , th e m a i n s e r v e r s w o u ld h a v e c o m e fr o m A m e r ic a ,
t h e li g h t i n g s y s t e m s w o u l d h a v e c o m e fr o m a n o t h e r p a r t o f th e w o r l d ,
t h e c a m e r a s m a y h a v e c o m e f r o m J a p a n . F o r th e s e s y s te m s t o s p e a k ,
y o u k n o w, o n c e t h e i n te g r a ti o n h a p p e n s t h e r e a r e a l o t o f b u g s t h a t a r e

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t h r o w n u p , t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) c o m e s f r o m a n o th e r c o m p a n y a n d y o u k n o w
f o r i t t o a l l s ta r t w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r i t t a k e s a b o u t a m o n t h w h e r e t h e
t e c h n ic a l t e a m a n d t h e e d it o r i a l t e a m s h o u ld w o r k c lo s e ly e li m i n a t e
those bugs and only the launch – then the launch should happen but in
t h is c a s e w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d w a s A ja y G u p t a a n d A t u l G u p ta h a d
a lr e a d y d e c id e d t h e l a u n c h d a t e w it h o u t c o n s u l t in g t h e p r o f e s s i o n a l s
a n d f o r u s i t w a s – w e k n e w t h a t th e r e w a s a tr a i n c o m i n g in th e
o p p o s it e d ir e c t io n a t d o u b le t h e s p e e d a n d w e ’r e o n th e s a m e tr a c k , w e
h a d o u r h a n d s ti e d b e h i n d o u r b a c k a n d w e h a d to g o i n f o r t h a t l a u n c h
10

a n d w e k n e w i t w a s a d i s a s te r b u t a s p r o f e s s io n a l s w e h a d to c o m m i t
s u i c i d e , y o u k n o w, t h e r e w a s n o o th e r o p ti o n f o r u s b e c a u s e t h e
t e c h n ic a l

team

was

under

c o n s ta n t p r e s s u r e ,

th e

vendors

were

s u p p o s e d t o d e li v e r, f o r i n s ta n c e , t h e s t u d io c a m e r a s c a m e o n t h e la s t
d a y, t h e d a y t h a t t h e l a u n c h w a s s u p p o s e d t o t a k e p l a c e th e y w e r e s t il l
fi t ti n g t h e r o b o t ic c a m e r a s .

N o w t h e s e r o b o t ic c a m e r a s r e q u ir e th e

v e n d o r t o c o m e i n a n d f o r tr a i n i n g t o b e g iv e n , th e r e a r e a l o t o f b u g s
t h a t a r e t h e r e . I n t e r m s o f t h e b u g s , i f I c a n e x p l a in , o n t h e d a y o f t h e
la u n c h th e r e w e r e – th e t e l e p r o m p te r w o u l d b l a c k o u t s u d d e n ly, y o u
k n o w, it w o u l d g o b l a n k t o t a lly a n d th e a n c h o r s w h o w e r e r e a d in g it
20

w e r e n o t p r o f e s s io n a l b r o a d c a s t a n c h o r s b u t t h e y m o d e l s w h o w e r e
b e i n g tr a i n e d a n d t h e ( in d is ti n c t) s in c e t h e y d id n o t w a n t to h i r e a n y
S o u th A fr ic a n s b e c a u s e t h e y th o u g h t th e y w o u ld b e m o r e e x p e n s iv e ,
t h e y g o t p e o p l e f r o m I n d i a w h o s p o k e v e r y li t tl e E n g li s h , s o t h e c u e s
w o u ld g o ( i n d is t in c t) a n d th e t e le p r o m p t e r f a i l e d a n d t h e a n c h o r w h o ’s
n o t a p r o fe s s i o n a l j o u r n a li s t w o u l d b e s i t t i n g t h e r e p e tr if i e d b e c a u s e –

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t h e s ta n d a r d o p e r a t in g p r o c e d u r e is f o r t h e P C R t o t e l l h e r, t h a t l o o k ,
t h e r e ’s a t e c h n i c a l f a il u r e , w h y d o n ’t y o u j u s t a n n o u n c e a b r e a k r ig h t
n o w a n d c o m e b a c k , w e ’l l fi x t h e b u g a n d w e ’l l c o m e b a c k h e r e b u t t h e y
w o u ld c o m e b a c k to h e r in H i n d i a n d s h e w o u ld n o t k n o w w h a t i s
h a p p e n in g a n d a l l o f th a t a n d t h e r e w a s a w o r l d o u t th e r e lo o k i n g a t t h e
la u n c h a n d t h e y w o u l d t w e e t a b o u t a ll o f t h a t , t a k e p i c tu r e s a n d p u t it
o u t a n d t h a t w a s , I th i n k , t h e m o s t d e p r e s s in g ti m e o f m y li f e b e c a u s e ,
y o u k n o w, in m y e n ti r e c a r e e r I h a d n e v e r s e e n a tr a i n w r e c k l ik e th a t
a n d y o u k n o w, to b e h e a d i n g t h a t – v e r y li t tl e s a y in th e w a y t h in g s
10

w e r e , i t w a s th e s a d d e s t , s a d d e s t p h a s e o f m y l if e a n d t h r o u g h n o f a u l t
o f m i n e b e c a u s e t h is i s s o m e t h in g t h a t A t u l G u p t a a n d A j a y G u p t a h a d
d o n e f o r t h e p u r e g r e e d , y o u k n o w, t h e y k n e w t h a t t h e s ta t i o n h a d to
s t a r t o n t i m e b e c a u s e th e n t h e r e v e n u e s w o u ld s t a r t t o c o m e o n ti m e
a n d th e n a l l t h e s h a r e h o l d e r s w o u l d s t a r t g e tt i n g th e ir c u t s o f t h e
d iv i d e n d e a r li e r th a n p o s s i b l e , t h e y w e r e n o t r e a l ly b o t h e r e d a b o u t i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s s o t h o s e w e r e th e l o g is t ic a l
n i g h t m a r e s t h a t y o u e x p e r ie n c e d , I’ m in t e r e s t e d m o r e in c o n t e n t.

If I

g o b a c k a n d I w a t c h t h e n e w s th a t A N 7 s h o w e d a n d c o m m u n i c a t e d t o
t h e p u b lic , d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d , j u s t i m m e d i a t e ly a ft e r i t ’s l a u n c h u n til y o u
20

le f t , c a n I c o m f o r t a b ly s a y a s a S o u th A f r ic a n c i t iz e n , w h a t I w a tc h e d
w a s r e li a b l e n e w s ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I wouldn’t say that because I remember

t h e r e w e r e e d i to r i a l m e e t i n g s t h a t w e h e l d w i t h – y o u k n o w b e c a u s e t h e
p e o p l e t h a t w e ’ d h ir e d f o r t h e k i n d o f b u d g e ts th a t w e h a d w e r e v e r y
y o u n g j o u r n a lis ts , v e r y h a r d w o r k in g j o u r n a li s t s , I m e a n I’v e s e t u p

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s t a ti o n s a n d I k n o w t h a t th e b u n c h t h a t w e h a d h e r e w e r e v e r y, v e r y
h a r d w o r k in g , t h e y w o u l d n ’ t c o m p la i n a b o u t th e l o n g w o r k i n g h o u r s o r
t h e fa c t t h a t th e r e w a s p r o b le m s w i t h t h e s y s te m s a n d t h e s e w e r e
y o u n g j o u r n a li s ts w h o w e r e i d e a li s t s , y o u k n o w, s o m o s t o f t h e t i m e s I
f o u n d t h a t t h e e d i to r i a l m e e ti n g s w e r e h i j a c k e d b y N a z e e m H o w a w h o
w o u ld s a y t h i n g s l ik e , y o u k n o w, i f th e r e w a s a ( i n d i s t i n c t) p r e s s
c o n fe r e n c e d o n ’ t e v e n c o v e r t h a t o r t h e r e ’s a n e w p o l i tic a l p a r t y th a t
b e i n g f o r m e d w e l l w h y s h o u l d w e g iv e t h e m a n y a c c e s s . M y t h o u g h t s
o n t h i s w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h a t a n y b o d y w h o is a p o li t ic a l e n t i ty, i t ’s n o t
10

m y b u s in e s s a s a j o u r n a lis t t o d e c id e th a t I ’ m g o in g to a l l o w t h e t o
h a v e a v o ic e o r n o t, m y b u s i n e s s w a s t o c o v e r t h a t a n d le t t h e p e o p le
d e c i d e i f th e y w a n t t o h e a r i t o r n o t , y o u k n o w.

W h ic h w a s n o t t h e

c a s e , b e c a u s e lik e I s a i d th e w o r d I ’ m u s i n g is h ij a c k e d , i t w a s h ij a c k e d
b y p e o p le l ik e N a z e e m H o w a a n d M o e g s i e m W i ll ia m s w h o w o u l d tr u s t
t h e s a m e p h il o s o p h y t h e y h a d d o n e i n t h e N e w A g e o n t o t h i s y o u k n o w
a n d I h a d ( i n d is t in c t) t o t a k e a b a c k s e a t a n d th is w a s a f e w d a y s b e f o r e
I resigned and decided to move out.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s s o t h i s – p e o p l e b r i n g t h is
c o n te n t to t h e e d i t o r i a l t e a m , y o u a r e p a r t o f t h a t t e a m , I j u s t w a n t t o
20

u n d e r s t a n d w o u ld y o u a ll o w th e m t o h i g h j a c k i t a n d p u s h i t t h e w a y th e y
w a n t e d i t t o g o o r w o u ld y o u a s t h e r e s p o n s ib l e e d i t o r t h a t y o u a r e , s a y,
y o u c a n n o t d o t h is , t h i s is n o t d o n e a n d t h e r e f o r e I w i ll n o t s u p p o r t t h e
p u b lic a ti o n o f t h is p a r tic u la r n e w s , o r h o w d i d i t w o r k ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll I w o u l d r e g is te r m y c o m p l a i n t , t e l l

t h e m t h a t t h i s i s t h e t h in g b u t o f c o u r s e M r N a z e e m H o w a w a s t h e C E O

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a n d f o r a l l p r a c ti c a l p u r p o s e s h e s a id th a t h e w a s a j o u r n a l is t b e f o r e h e
c a m e i n t h e r e a n d f o r m e , w e ll I h a d e x p e r ie n c e w o r k in g i n I n d ia , i n S r i
L a n k a a n d t h e M i d d l e E a s t a n d s o m e b it s i n P a k is t a n , t h is w a s m y v e r y
fir s t ti m e i n S o u t h A fr ic a s o I h a d t o g iv e in t o t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a s a
p e r s o n th a t k n e w th e p o li ti c a l s i t u a t i o n i n S o u t h A f r i c a fa r b e tt e r th a n
m e a n d th e o p ti o n s I h a d w a s t o e i th e r m o v e o u t o f it t o e i t h e r l e a d ,
w h i c h I c o u l d n ’ t b e c a u s e c l e a r ly I h a d j u s t c o m e t o S o u t h A fr ic a a fe w
w e e k s b e f o r e o r a fe w m o n t h s b e f o r e o r t o g e t o u t o f t h e w a y a n d I
c h o s e t o g e t o u t o f t h e w a y b e c a u s e I d i d n o t a g r e e w i th w h a t w a s
10

h a p p e n in g . I f I w e r e t o a p p ly th e r u l e s o f jo u r n a li s m th a t I h a d le a r n e d
in j o u r n a lis m s c h o o l a n d w h ic h I h a d f o l lo w e d a ll m y li f e , I w o u l d h a v e
s a i d , a ll p o li ti c a l p a r ti e s , i f t h e y h a v e a p r e s s c o n f e r e n c e , p l e a s e c o v e r
it , i f th e r e ’s a n y v i e w t h a t a n y b o d y h a s o u t t h e r e , p le a s e c o v e r i t , p u t i t
o n t h e a ir a n d l e t t h e p e o p l e d e c i d e . W e s h o u ld n o t g e t i n t o c e n s o r s h ip
a t a n y p o in t s p e c i a lly in e d i to r i a l p o li c y, e s p e c i a l ly w h e n y o u h a v e a n
e d i to r i a l t e a m w h ic h is a s y o u n g a s w h a t w e h a d a t t h a t t i m e , t h e r e
s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a n y s c o p e f o r i n fl u e n c i n g t h e y o u n g m in d s o n
h o w t o d o t h e ir j o u r n a l is m b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e y o u n g p e o p l e w h o h a d
jo in e d u s a s r e p o r t e r s a t t h a t t i m e h a d c o m e fr o m U n iv e r s i ti e s w h e r e

20

t h e y k n e w w h a t g o o d j o u r n a lis m w a s a b o u t , h o w th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
g o a b o u t i t , th a t w a s b e in g c o r r u p t e d b y t h e k in d o f v ie w s th a t M r
N a z e e m H o w a w a s g iv in g i n th e e d i to r i a l m e e t in g s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s y o u s e e I ’ m n o t a j o u r n a l is t
I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h o s e r e s p o n s i b i li ty it is to m a k e s u r e th a t
n e w s t h a t g o e s o u t is r e l i a b l e n e w s , w h o s e r e s p o n s i b i li ty i s i t ?

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I t i s t h e e d i t o r s r e s p o n s i b i li ty a n d i t is t h e

c o l l e c ti v e r e s p o n s i b ili t y o f t h e e d i t o r ia l te a m b u t I t h i n k t h e b u c k s t o p s
w i t h th e e d i t o r a n d I w a s fr u s tr a t e d , y o u k n o w, a n d I w a s t o l d m o r e t h a n
o n e o c c a s io n t h a t lo o k , y o u h a v e a fa n c y s a l a r y, y o u h a v e a f a n c y c h a ir
t o s i t o n , w h y d o n ’ t y o u ju s t s i t th e r e , y o u ’ v e a lr e a d y s e t u p t h e s ta t io n
a n d y o u k n o w, lo o k t h e o th e r w a y a n d I w a s q u o t e d – I w a s a l s o t o l d
t h a t lo o k a t M o e g s ie m W i l li a m s y o u ’l l s e e h i m , y o u k n o w, A t u l G u p t a
h a s g o t a c e l l p h o n e o n w h ic h t h e m o v e m e n t o f a ll th e j o u r n a lis t s in t h e
N e w A g e c a n b e m o n i t o r e d 2 4 h o u r b a s is . H e k n o w s h o w m a n y m i n u te s
10

a j o u r n a l is t a t t h e N e w A g e is t a k i n g a c i g a r e t t e b r e a k o r h a s g o n e o u t
t o h a v e c o ff e e o r if h e ’s g o n e o u t o n a n a s s ig n m e n t , h o w l o n g h a s h e
t a k e n to c o m e b a c k .

T h a t is th e k i n d o f m o n i to r i n g t h a t A t u l G u p t a

u s e d t o d o o f t h e t e a m a n d h e h a d p e o p le w i t h i n t h e n e w s r o o m ,
in c l u d i n g M r A s l i m w h o s e j o b it w a s to r e p o r t b a c k t o h i m o n e a c h a n d
every development that was happening in the newsroom.

What were

t h e e d i t o r s – h e w e n t to t h e e x t e n t t h a t , h o w l o n g is t h e t o i l e t b r e a k
t h a t p e o p le a r e t a k in g o r s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e k n e w, h e h a d C C T V
c a m e r a s a ll a r o u n d .

If M r M o e g s ie m W i l li a ms c o u ld li v e w it h t h a t a t

N e w A g e w h y c o u l d n ’ t y o u liv e w i t h w h a t e v e r w a s h a p p e n i n g , y o u k n o w,
20

le t th e m m i c r o m a n a g e f o r y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , w o u l d y o u t h e n s a y t h a t

h a v i n g g i v e n t h a t – y o u ’v e g i v e n s o m e j u s ti f ic a t i o n fo r i t a s to w h y y o u
w o u ld h a v e , p e r h a p s tu r n e d a b li n d e y e t o w h a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
d o b u t w o u l d y o u a g r e e w it h m e t h e n t h a t b y d o in g s o y o u m i g h t h a v e
c o m p r o m is e d w h a t c a m e o u t o f th a t n e w s s ta t io n b e c a u s e o f t h e

Page 117 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
v a r io u s r e a s o n s t h a t y o u ’ v e g i v e n th a t y o u ’v e g o t s o m e o n e i n t e r fe r i n g
w i t h th e e d i to r i a l m a t t e r s a n d a ls o th e r e ’s t h r e a ts t h a t l o o k , i f y o u d o n ’ t
d o w h a t y o u ’v e b e e n to l d to d o y o u m ig h t h a v e t o le a v e . Wa s t h e r e a
p o i n t w h e r e y o u f e lt y o u k n o w t h a t , l o o k , h e r e I a ll o w e d m y s e l f t o b e
p u t in a p o s i ti o n w h e r e a n y e d it o r s h o u l d n ’ t b e p u t i n ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll y o u k n o w, o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y I

d e c i d e d to c o m e t o S o u t h A fr ic a w a s , t h e k i n d o f r o m a n c e t h a t I
a s s o c i a t e d w i t h S o u t h A fr ic a . G r o w i n g u p in I n d i a , w e – I u s e d t o r e a d
t h e p a p e r s e v e r y d a y a b o u t t h e s tr u g g l e s t h a t w e r e h a p p e n in g , t h e
10

le a d e r s li k e , N e ls o n M a n d e l a , t h e k in d o f – th e v a r i o u s a c t o r s I w a s
v e r y i n s p ir e d b y t h a t , i t w a s p a r t o f t h e t e x t b o o k s w h e n w e w e r e
s t u d y i n g th e g a r m e n t i f I n d i a w a s v e r y m u c h , y o u k n o w, p a r t o f a b a n d
t h a t w a s t h e r e o n th e a p a r t h e i d r e g i m e h e r e . I s t il l r e m e m b e r th e f ir s t
p a s s p o r t t h a t I g o t h a d p r i n te d o n i t , y o u k n o w, t h a t o n t h is p a s s p o r t
y o u c a n n o t tr a v e l t o th e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A f r i c a w h i c h is p a r t o f t h e
g a r m e n t o f In d i a ’s p o li c y o n t h e a p a r th e i d r e g i m e . S o fo r m e , c o m i n g
t o S o u t h A f r ic a a n d w o r k i n g w i t h th e y o u n g t e a m o f S o u t h A f r ic a n s w a s
a d r e a m o f s o r ts , y o u k n o w, s o I th o u g h t i t w a s w o r t h w h il e fo r m e t o
le a v e m y y o u n g d a u g h t e r s a n d f a m i ly t o c o m e f o r th is p r o j e c t a n d

20

c o n v i n c e m y f a m i ly a b o u t i t b u t I h a v e r e g r e t r i g h t n o w th a t I w a s p a r t
o f a t e a m t h a t I s e t u p a t e le v is io n s t a t i o n f o r w h a t I s e e w a s th e m a f i a
f o r p u r p o s e s o f p r o p a g a n d a w h ic h is n o t s o m e th i n g t h a t I w a n t e d t o d o
a n d I t h i n k t h is is t h e b ig g e s t r e g r e t t h a t I h a v e in m y li f e a n d o n e o f
t h e r e a s o n w h y I w r o t e t h e b o o k , y o u k n o w, i f I w a n t e d I c o u l d h a v e j u s t
s t a r t e d o n w i th m y li f e a n d g o n e o n b u t I t o o k a f e w m o n t h s o ff to w r i t e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h e b o o k i m m e d i a te ly a f t e r I c a m e b a c k , b e c a u s e I k n e w t h a t i t w a s n o t
e n o u g h f o r m e t o j u s t h a v e r u n a w a y fr o m t h e r e , I h a d t o t e l l t h e s to r y
to the others.

E v e n n o w, a f t e r t h e b o o k w a s w r it t e n I w e n t t h r o u g h a

k id n e y tr a n s p l a n t ju s t a fe w m o n th s a g o , a n d y o u k n o w, a f t e r w r i ti n g t h e
b o o k , i f I d id n o t c o m e a n d te s t i fy h e r e , th e r e g r e t t h a t I h a d w o u l d
h a v e s t a y e d w i t h m e . S o t h is is , in s o m e s e n s e s , a k i n d o f c l o s u r e f o r
m e , y o u k n o w, t h a t I c a n c o m e a n d t e s t if y h e r e a n d te ll y o u t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s i n w h ic h I s e r v e d , t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s in w h ic h I q u i t , t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s in w h i c h t h e y b e c a m e v e r y h o s til e a n d a l m o s t h a d t o r u n ,
10

y o u k n o w, I fe a r e d f o r m y l if e a n d th e fu t u r e o f m y c h il d r e n i n t h e l a s t
d a y s h e r e . S o y e s , I d o r e g r e t th e fa c t t h a t I s e t u p a s t a ti o n fo r t h e
m a f ia w h ic h w a s t o b e u s e d f o r p r o p a g a n d a a n d – b u t t o b e h o n e s t I
h a d t h o u g h t – y o u k n o w b e c a u s e I w a s n ’t a ( i n d i s ti n c t) a t t h a t ti m e
because if I had quit a few days after I had joined, I would put the
c a r e e r s o f th e c o ll e a g u e s th a t I’ d g o t w it h m e in j e o p a r d y, th a t a lr e a d y
g o t t h e ir k i d s o u t o f s c h o o l a n d i t ’s v e r y d i ffi c u l t t o g e t a d m i s s i o n i n
s c h o o l s in I n d ia , o n c e y o u ’v e ta k e n th e m o u t y o u k n o w, a n d t h e n t h e y
h a d r e l o c a t e d h e r e , t h e y p u t t h e ir k i d s i n s c h o o ls a n d f o r m e t o q u it a n d
le a v e w i th o u t t h e c h a n n e l s e t tli n g i n a n y w a y w o u l d h a v e b e e n u n f a ir

20

b u t I h a d ta k e n a d e c is i o n v e r y e a r ly th a t I w o u ld q u it t h e s t a t i o n , th is
is n o t th e p la c e I w a n t t o w o r k b u t a l lu d e a ft e r I l a u n c h i t , y o u k n o w, I
w a s t h e c a p t a i n o f t h e s h ip I w o u ld n ’ t d e s e r t i t i n t h e m i d d l e I w o u ld
t a k e i t t o a p a r ti c u l a r c o n c lu s i o n w h ic h i s t h e la u n c h ( i n d is ti n c t) I d o
n o t a g r e e w i t h a n y o f t h i s a n d I w o u ld q u i t a n d I w o u l d g o .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Page 119 of 225

S o c a n w e t h e n – ju s t t o

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
s u m m a r i s e t h a t, c a n w e a c c e p t t h a t w h a t e v e r c a m e o u t , d u r i n g th e t i m e
ju s t a f te r t h e l a u n c h , u n t il y o u l e ft , w a s c o m p r o m i s e d n e w s w h ic h
happened under your watch?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I would agree with that, I would say yes.

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s t h a n k y o u

Yo u h a v e t o ld u s a b o u t t h e fir s t m e e ti n g a n d y o u ’ v e

t o l d u s a b o u t th e s e c o n d m e e ti n g .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u t o l d u s a b o u t t h e p e o p l e w h o a t t e n d e d t h e s e t w o
10

m e e ti n g s , a s f a r a s I r e c a l l y o u d i d n ’ t i n c l u d e – y o u d i d n ’ t s a y t h a t M r
D u d u z a n e Z u m a w a s p r e s e n t a t a n y o f th e s e fir s t t w o m e e t in g s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o h e w a s n ’ t a s a m a t te r o f f a c t h e w a s

n o t i n v o lv e d in a n y o f t h e d e c is i o n m a k i n g i t w a s h is f a t h e r w h o w a s –
w h o w o u ld a c t li k e a s h a r e h o l d e r in t h is , h e d id m a k e a f e w
a p p e a r a n c e s … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d y o u m e t h i m b y t h e ti m e o f t h e s e c o n d m e e t i n g ,
had you met Mr Duduzane Zuma?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :
20

No I haven’t.

A n d t h is w a s w h a t – t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g h a p p e n e d

w h e n y o u w e r e i n y o u r s e c o n d m o n t h i n S o u th A fr ic a o r w h a t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s i n J u ly.

C H A I R P E R S O N : In J u ly, t h a t y o u a r r i v e d i n …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

In J u n e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : In J u n e .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

Page 120 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : E a r ly J u n e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s it w a s t h e 3 r d o f J u n e , s o t o d a y is t h e

s ix t h y e a r … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h j a f ir s t w e e k o f J u n e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

S o i t w a s n o w J u ly, s o i t w a s y o u r s e c o n d m o n t h .

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n o t m e t h i m y e t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

No.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d m e t – h a d y o u m e t a l l th e o th e r D ir e c to r s o f
t h e c o m p a n y in ( i n d is t in c t) m e d i a a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e m a t t h a t s t a g e ,
o th e r t h a n h i m ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s I’ d m e t L a x m i G o e l , I ’ d m e t t h e G u p t a

b r o t h e r s , I’ d m e t M o e g s i e m a n d I’ d m e t N a z e e m H o w a . I d i d n o t m e e t
D u d u z a n e u n t il t h e d a y o f t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w a s h e t h e o n ly D ir e c t o r o f y o u r e m p lo y e r th a t y o u
h a d n o t m e t b y th e ti m e o f t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, a lr ig h t .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
told

that

i t ’s

1

o ’c lo c k ,

may

Thank you, Mr Chairman I’m

we

then

a d jo u r n

for

lunch

u n t il … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y w e ’ ll a d j o u r n fo r l u n c h n o w a n d w e ’l l

r e s u m e a t 2 o ’c lo c k . W e a d jo u r n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S

Page 121 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d M s N o r m a n .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

I beg your pardon.

Just to

b r i n g t o y o u r a t t e n t io n d u r in g th e l u n c h o r t h e lo n g a d j o u r n m e n t w e
w e r e f u r n is h e d w i t h a n a ffi d a v i t w h ic h is d e p o s e d t o b y M r M o e g s i e n
W il li a m s to g e th e r w i th l e t te r s a n d s o m e a n n e x u r e s t o i t . W e b e g le a v e
t o s i m p l y h a n d t h i s u p fo r y o u r in f o r m a ti o n a t th is s ta g e a n d t h a t w e
p r o p o s e t h a t w e w o u l d lik e to d e a l w i t h i t i n t h e m o r n in g i f t h a t is
p o s s i b le ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k r e a d – h a v e ti m e t o r e a d u n le s s y o u s a y y o u
h a v e r e a d i t?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I h a v e r e a d i t b u t b e c a u s e t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n a n d M r S u n d a r a m h a v e n o t h a d ti m e to h a v e a l o o k a t i t I
w a s g o in g to p r o p o s e t h a t m a y b e w e d e a l w i t h i t i n t h e m o r n i n g o r
w o u ld y o u l ik e m e t o r e a d i t in t o th e r e c o r d ?
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t w h a t is t h e a ffi d a v it a b o u t?

Is it a n a p p l ic a ti o n

for anything?
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h e r e is n o n o ti c e o f m o t io n . I t
is ju s t a n a ff i d a v i t b u t th e l e tt e r fr o m t h e a tt o r n e y s m a k e s t h is
20

s t a te m e n t w h ic h I t h i n k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k r e fl e c t o n it e x a c t l y w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n j a .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d le t y o u k n o w in th e

m o r n in g .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja because…
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

Page 122 of 225

Thank you Mr

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t ju s t s e n d a s t a te m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n a ffi d a v i t w i t h o u t i n d ic a ti n g w h a t t h e p u r p o s e i s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a t i s w h a t is a l s o

p u z z l i n g u s . T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja you need to – to examine it and – and we take it
fr o m t h e r e .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

Thank you very much. Thank

Th a n k y o u m a y w e t h e n p r o c e e d ?

Mr S u n d a r a m

c o u l d y o u ju s t g o b a c k …
CHAIRPERSON :

M a y b e I m u s t j u s t c h e c k t h is .

Mr Sundaram is

a v a i la b le in S o u th A fr ic a n f o r h o w l o n g ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : H e is a v a i la b l e t o m o r r o w. H e i s
le a v in g to m o r r o w a t – in t h e e v e n i n g . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h e i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s g o t e n o u g h ti m e t o a p p l y
f o r le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e a n d t h e ti m e e x p i r e d a n d t h e r e w a s n o
a p p lic a ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e m a k e s u r e t h a t w h e n w e a d j o u r n I d o g e t
t h a t a ffi d a v i t i n f o r m a l ly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d t h e n y o u c a n d e a l w i t h i t f o r m a ll y t o m o r r o w

Page 123 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
m o r n in g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A s y o u p le a s e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t t o th e e x t e n t t h a t i t m a y c o n t a i n a v e r s i o n th a t
s h o u l d b e p u t to M r S u n d a r a m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t c a n b e e x p lo r e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

W e w il l d o th a t . T h a n k

y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

We – on page –

p a g e 2 0 ? Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Yo u w a n te d to h i g h l ig h t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l s o – s o w e – w e n e e d t o c h e c k w h e t h e r th e p e r s o n
w h o h a s g i v e n – w h o h a s d e p o s e d t o th a t a ff i d a v i t a s in d ic te d th a t h e
o r s h e is a v a i la b l e to t a k e th e w i t n e s s s t a n d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : To m o r r o w.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t n e c e s s a r il y t o m o r r o w.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f a n d w h e n r e q u ir e d to b y t h e c o m m i s s io n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s w e w il l d o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w w h e n t h e y a p p l y f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a mi n e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d e a l w i th t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

N o w h e o r s h e is n o t a p p ly i n g fo r le a v e t o c r o s s -

e x a m in e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : N o .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t i t m ig h t b e h e lp f u l to k n o w t h a t th e p e r s o n i s

m a k i n g h is o r h e r v e r s i o n o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t i f r e q u ir e d t h e y
h a v e n o p r o b l e m c o m i n g t o te s ti fy t o t h a t v e r s io n .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

Te s t if y.

W e w il l d o t h a t M r

C h a ir m a n . T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you very much.

Ye s

t h a n k y o u M r S u n d a r a m t h e r e is o n e – y o u w a n t e d t o h ig h li g h t
s o m e t h i n g i n 2 5 .11 a t p a g e 9 – 2 1 I b e g y o u r p a r d o n y e s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s – o h y e s I – t h e p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g y o u
k n o w h e – P r e s i d e n t Zu m a h a d g iv e n u s a n e x a m p le o f h o w t h e
c o v e r a g e s h o u l d b e . S o h e w a s t e ll in g u s t h a t in a f e w d a y s fr o m t h a t
m e e ti n g h e w o u l d b e g o in g to M p u m a la n g a a n d t h a t h e w o u ld e x p e c t
t h a t E N C A a n d t h e o th e r s t a t i o n s w o u l d g i v e h i m a b a d p u b lic i ty a b o u t
20

it a n d h e a l s o s a id t h a t th e y w o u l d g o t h e r e t o t h e l o c a l a r e a a n d g e t
sound

b it e s

from

the

people

about

how

the

p o li c i e s

and

the

p r o g r a m m e s o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t w e r e n o t w o r k i n g a n d t h a t i s w h a t th e y
w o u ld h i g h l ig h t w h e n t h e y d o a s t o r y o n th a t .

S o t h a t i s w h e n Aj a y

G u p t a s u g g e s t e d t h a t w e w o u l d s e n d a t e a m w i t h y o u o n th a t – o n th e
fl ig h t t h a t y o u g o i n g t o a n d w e d o a p o s i ti v e c o v e r a g e .

Page 125 of 225

To w h ic h h e

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
said…
CHAIRPERSON :

Wa s t h a t c o v e r a g e b e th a t o f t h e N e w A g e t h e

newspaper?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o f o r t h e t e l e v is io n s t a t i o n w h ic h w a s s ti ll
being…
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d i t s ta r t e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o i t h a d n o t s t a r te d t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B u t h e w a n t e d t o g e t i t in t o a p r a c t ic e a n d
10

[i n d is t in c t] t h a t is t h e t i m e w h e n w e w e r e – w h e n w e w e r e – w e h a d o u r
t e a m s o u t a n d t h e y w e r e g o i n g o u t a n d f il m i n g . S o – b u t w h a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t s a i d t h a t i f y o u c o m e t h e r e w i t h m e o n t h e f li g h t i t w o u l d b e a
v e r y s h a l l o w k in d o f a r e p o r t t h a t y o u c a n p u t o u t a n d i t m a y n o t – i t
w i ll s e e m li k e p r o p a g a n d a b e c a u s e y o u w ill g o a n d t a lk t o p e o p l e a n d
s o u n d b it e s o f h o w th in g s a r e w o r k i n g a n d a ll o f t h a t .

But what he

w a n t e d i n s te a d w a s a n a d v a n c e d te a m o f r e p o r t e r s t o g o b e fo r e e a c h
v is it th a t h e m a d e t o v a r i o u s p r o v in c e s a n d t o d o s t o r ie s a b o u t h o w th e
p r o g r a m m e s w e r e w o r k i n g in d e e d a n d th e n f o l l o w i t u p w i t h a v is i t s o
t h a t o v e r a l l y o u k n o w i t w a s n o t j u s t a r e p o r t o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y b u t
20

a s e r i e s o f r e p o r ts th a t c a m e b e fo r e h is v i s i t a n d w h ic h – y o u k n o w s o
t h e v ie w e r w a s r e i n f o r c e d w h e n t h e P r e s i d e n t c a m e t h e r e a n d h e g a v e
a s p e e c h a n d p u t t h a t o u t . S o – s o to w h ic h A ja y G u p t a s a i d t h a t y e s
y o u k n o w w e w i ll s e n d a t e a m w it h y o u a n d w e w i ll s e n d a n a d v a n c e d
t e a m a s w e ll b e c a u s e w e h a v e g o t v a r i o u s b u r e a u s a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y
a n d t h e y c o u l d d o – b e t h e a d v a n c e d t e a m t h a t s e n d s u s th e s e v i s u a ls .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
S o i t w a s p la n n i n g d o w n to t h a t le v e l t h a t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h e – d u r i n g
t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g s i n t e r m s o f t h e e d i t o r ia l a p p r o a c h t h a t o n e w a s t o
take.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A n d y o u – d o
y o u w a n t to h ig h l i g h t s o m e t h i n g o n t h a t p a g e o th e r t h a n w h a t y o u h a v e
ju s t t e s ti f ie d to ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O h y o u s e e a l s o th e r e w a s a b r i e f t h a t w a s
g iv e n t o th e P r e s i d e n t a b o u t t h e t e c h n o l o g y t h a t w a s a v a il a b l e .

For

in s t a n c e th e s a t e l li t e tr u c k s t h a t t h e y h a d th e y – o u r b r o a d c a s t v a n s
10

a n d a l s o e a c h o f t h e b u r e a u s h a d a l iv e d e v ic e w h ic h w a s – w h ic h
p r i m a r i ly w o r k e d o n th e – o n b a n d w i d t h .

S o h e w a s t o l d t h a t th e s e

d e v ic e s w e r e a v a il a b l e a n d t h a t t h e s t a ti o n c o u l d g o liv e w i t h a n y o f
e v e n t s fr o m a n y w h e r e i n t h e c o u n tr y. S o t h o s e w e r e th e b r ie f in g s t h a t
w e r e g i v e n to h i m a b o u t h e c o u l d u s e t h e t e c h n o lo g y t h a t w a s a v a il a b l e
w i t h t h e s t a ti o n f o r h is o w n p u b lic i ty a n d a l l o f t h a t a n d w h i c h i s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e l is te n e d t o v e r y – p a i d a l o t o f a tt e n ti o n t o .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t – w e r e y o u – y o u w e r e d e a l in g w i th w h a t is i n

25.18.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P o in t 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t r i g h t p a r a g r a p h 2 5 .1 8 ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s m y a p o l o g y y e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o 11 , 1 2 , 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : H e h a s c o m p r e s s e d I t h i n k 11 ,

Page 127 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
12 and 13.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

H e h a s s u m m a r is e d b a s i c a ll y

w h a t i s i n 2 0 – y e s 11 , 1 2 a n d 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh yes.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : M r C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e th a t in p a r a g r a p h 2 5 . 1 3 y o u – y o u h a v e I th i n k
w i t h i n q u o t e s a m o n g o th e r s th is s t a te m e n t t h a t y o u a t tr i b u t e to M r A ja y
G u p t a a t t h e m e e t in g ‘w e c a n s e n d r e p o r t e r s w it h y o u a n d w e w i ll a ls o
10

s e n d r e p o r te r s i n a d v a n c e ’ .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

‘ T h e p o s it iv e s o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t w i ll s u r e l y b e

h i g h l ig h te d ’ a n d th e n y o u s a y A j a y a n s w e r e d w i t h fo l d e d h a n d s . C o u l d
y o u r e m e m b e r a ll t h o s e d e t a ils w h e n y o u w r o te t h e b o o k ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I w r o t e th e b o o k w i t h i n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t a n y – a n y n o te s t h a t y o u h a d m a d e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o I w r o t e th is b o o k – th e b o o k w a s

r e l e a s e d i n 2 0 1 8 b u t I w r o t e th is b o o k w i t h i n m o n t h s o f le a v in g t h e r e .
Yo u k n o w I s ta r t e d a s s o o n a s I le f t I h a d – w a s i n t o u c h w i t h B r i d g e t
20

Impey

fr o m

Jacana

M e d ia

and

I

had

s ta r t e d

w r i ti n g

fr o m

my

r e c o l l e c ti o n . S o I h a d s t a r t e d w r i ti n g a l l o f th is i m m e d ia t e l y th e n a n d
s e n d i n g t h e c h a p t e r s a c r o s s to m y p u b l is h e r.
CHAIRPERSON :

L e t u s s a y th e – y o u s t a r t e d w r i ti n g a b o u t w h a t –

a b o u t a m o n t h a f te r y o u l e f t, a b o u t t w o m o n th s a f t e r y o u l e f t , a b o u t
t h r e e m o n th s h o w l o n g ?

Page 128 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: No immediately as soon as I reached I had
t a k e n a b r e a k I d e c i d e d t h a t I w i ll n o t t a k e u p a n y o t h e r a s s ig n m e n t
u n t il t h e ti m e I h a d t h e b o o k o u t o f m y h e a d .

S o I t r a v e ll e d to – I

s t a r t e d w r i ti n g i n D e l h i t h e n I – y o u k n o w I t h o u g h t t h a t I n e e d e d
s e c lu s i o n t o w r i t e s o I tr a v e l l e d t o N e p a l t o K a th m a n d u t o P o k h a r a t h e n
I c a m e b a c k . T h e r e w a s a c o n f e r e n c e I h a d t o a t t e n d in N e w J e r s e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m y e s b u t I a m tr y i n g t o g e t th e ti m e …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : So within days.
CHAIRPERSON :
10

Th a t I – t h a t l a p s e d s i n c e y o u le f t a n d y o u s t a r te d

w r i t in g th e b o o k ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I t h in k i t w a s a m a t t e r o f d a y s . Yo u k n o w a s
s o o n a s I c a m e b a c k t o D e l h i I h a d i m m e d i a te ly s ta r t e d w r it i n g t h e b o o k
a n d I t h i n k e v e n i n t h e in t e r v i e w s t h a t I w a s g i v i n g a t t h a t ti m e t o t h e
m e d i a I h a d to ld t h e m t h a t I a m w r i t in g th i s b o o k a n d t h a t I w o u l d h a v e
– i t w il l b e a t e l l a ll b o o k a n d i t w il l h a v e a ll th e d e t a i ls th a t I h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o f c o u r s e t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g w a s d u r i n g y o u r –
t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a v e t e s t i f ie d a b o u t h a d – t o o k p la c e
d u r i n g y o u r s e c o n d m e e t in g – s e c o n d m o n t h i n S o u th A f r i c a w h i c h w a s
July?

20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r – y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u o n l y
le f t a r o u n d S e p t e m b e r is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b e t w e e n th e d a t e o f t h a t m e e ti n g i n J u l y – s e c o n d
m e e ti n g to t h e ti m e t h a t y o u l e f t y o u h a d n o t w r i tt e n a n y n o t e s t h a t

Page 129 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e c o r d e d t o w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a t t h e m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I had not recorded any notes but I did

r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e t h e s e w e r e v e r y i m p o r ta n t m e e t in g s d u r i n g my –
[i n d is t in c t] t h e r e t h e m e e ti n g w it h t h e P r e s id e n t a n d I h a d r e m e m b e r e d
a l l th e d e ta il s a ls o v e r y v iv i d ly b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e n o t u s u a l m e e ti n g s
a n d u s u a l c o n v e r s a t io n s .

They were very unusual and a lot of the

t h i n g s r e a lly s t u c k i n my h e a d b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON :

N o I a m j u s t – I a m ju s t – t h i n k a b o u t r e m e m b e r in g

t h a t w h e n h e s a id – m a d e a c e r t a i n s t a te m e n t h e h a d – h is h a n d s w e r e
10

folded.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON :

Wa s – w e r e h is h a n d s f o l d e d t h r o u g h o u t t h e w h o l e

m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o y o u s e e w h e n e v e r h e s a i d s o m e t h in g

lik e t h i s w h e r e h e n e e d e d v a li d a t i o n y o u k n o w h e w o u l d f o l d h is h a n d
and say that.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Yo u k n o w in a s ig n o f s i n c e r i ty th a t h e w a s
s a y in g it w i t h a ll s i n c e r i ty.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B u t t h a t is s o m e th i n g t h a t I r e m e m b e r e d

because – because here was somebody w ho was trying to sell an idea
t o t h e P r e s id e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d h e w a n te d t o a p p e a r a n d h e d i d th a t .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Yo u k n o w i n t h o s e m e e ti n g s a n d th a t is

s o m e t h i n g t h a t I r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e t h e s e w h e r e c h a r a c te r s a n d t h e s e
w e r e y o u k n o w th e k in d o f g e s t u r e s t h a t t h e y m a k e w h ic h r e a l ly s t ic k s
t o o n e s ’ m in d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d w h e n I w a s w r i ti n g t h a t b o o k I j u s t p u t
a l l o f th a t i n to g e th e r. B e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r t h e s e t h i n g s v e r y v iv id l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

L i k e I r e m e m b e r t h e m b e c a u s e th e y w e r e

very unusual because I had never been part of such meetings ever
b e f o r e w h e r e s u c h t h i n g s w e r e d is c u s s e d .

And I do remember the

m a n n e r is m s , th e b o d y la n g u a g e t h a t w e r e t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

I n m e e t i n g s t h a t d i d n o t i n v o lv e t h e P r e s id e n t

w a s M r A ja y G u p t a in t h e h a b i t o f f o ld in g h is a r ms l ik e th a t m a y b e o r is
it s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u o n ly s a w a t t h e s e m e e ti n g s w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O n l y i n t h e s e m e e t in g s w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t

b e c a u s e o t h e r m e e ti n g s I s e e b a s i c a ll y i t w a s A t u l G u p ta w h o w a s t h e
h a n d s o n p e r s o n fr o m t h e f a m il y.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W h o w a s l o o k i n g a t th is . A j a y ’s i n t e r e s t in
t h is w o u l d c o m e w h e n y o u m e e ti n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t o r h e w o u l d h a v e a n
o c c a s i o n a l v is it w i t h h is – y o u k n o w h a l f a d o z e n b o d y g u a r d s t h a t h e
w o u ld c o m e fr o m t i m e t o t i m e . B u t a p a r t fr o m t h a t h e w a s n o t d ir e c t ly
a s s o c i a t e d w i t h th e d a y t o d a y o p e r a ti o n s t h e r e .

Page 131 of 225

It was more Atul

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
Gupta.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . /
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W h o w a s t h e [ in d i s t i n c t ] b e c a u s e y o u k n o w
hands on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A l m o s t o n a 2 4 / 7 b a s is o n t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

Thank you Mr

C h a ir m a n . A n d t h e n y o u in p a r a g r a p h 2 5 . 1 5 b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y
10

d e a lt w i t h t h e n a m e s t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d g iv e n y o u o f p e r s o n s t h a t
y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to a p p r o a c h .

Yo u d e a l w i t h th a t in 2 5 . 1 4 .

Then

25.15.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s s o I t h o u g h t t h a t t h is w a s g e t ti n g in t o

a n in t e r n a l H R m e e t i n g a s w e ll b e c a u s e y o u k n o w h e a l lo c a t e d t o u s o f
a ti m e o n a S u n d a y w h e r e h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o s p e n d t i m e w i t h h is
f a m ily w i t h t h e A N N 7 . A n d l ik e I h a v e s a i d b e fo r e y o u k n o w h i s in t e r e s t
in th e m e e ti n g s w a s l ik e a fu ll s h a r e h o ld e r.
d e t a i ls , h e w a n te d t o h e l p o u t .

He wanted to know the

T h e r e w e r e is s u e s t h a t t h e o t h e r

d ir e c t o r s c o u l d n o t r e s o l v e t h a t w e r e b e i n g b r o u g h t t o h is n o tic e b e i n g
20

t h e P r e s id e n t fo r h i m t o r e s o lv e a n d o n e o f t h e is s u e s th a t w a s b r o u g h t
a ls o w a s a b o u t – a n d I h a v e w r i t t e n th e r e a b o u t h o w th e c o m m e r c i a l
a s p e c ts o f a ll o f t h i s r e a ll y i n tr ig u e d m e a t th a t ti m e .

A n d a ls o th e

s t a te m e n ts t h a t w e r e b e in g m a d e y o u k n o w l ik e h o w t h e D A – s o m e b o d y
s a i d t h e r e w a s – w e h a d a v e r y e ff e c ti v e P R m a c h i n e r y a n d th e y w o u l d
c h u r n o u t p r e s s r e l e a s e s e v e r y d a y t w i s ti n g f a c ts a n d t u r n i n g t h e m

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
a g a in s t t h e g o v e r n m e n t .

S o th is is th e k in d o f s t a t e m e n ts t h a t w e r e

b e i n g m a d e th e r e . A n d a ls o t h e f a c t a b o u t w h o to h i r e y o u k n o w w h i c h
w a s – s o m e t h i n g w h ic h w a s a n i n t e r n a l d e c i s i o n w a s a l s o t a k e n t o th e
President.

L i k e t h e – s o th a t w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s a ls o d i s c u s s e d

t h e r e d u r i n g t h a t ti m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d th e n y o u s e e m e d t o h a v e
p o s e d a q u e s ti o n w it h N a z e e m a n d w h a t h e t o ld y o u ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s y o u s e e b e c a u s e I h a d a s k e d h i m y o u
k n o w b e c a u s e u n ti l t h a t t i m e i t w a s n o t v e r y c le a r to m e o n w h y w e
10

w e r e g iv in g t h e s e p r e s e n t a t i o n s to P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w e w e r e j u s t t o l d
a n d w e w e r e d o in g i t .

S o w e h a d a v e r y h e c t ic s c h e d u l e y o u k n o w it

w a s a l m o s t w o r k in g fr o m m o r n in g u n ti l la t e in th e n ig h t in th e p r o c e s s
o f s e t ti n g u p t h e s t a ti o n .

A ll o f u s w e r e a c t u a ll y e v e n th e y o u n g

r e p o r t e r s , y o u n g t e a m th a t h a d c o m e in th e r e w e r e p u t t in g i n 1 2 , 1 3 , 1 4
hours some days.

T h e y w o u l d c o m e in v e r y e a r ly a n d g o b a c k i n a

d r o p p i n g t h a t th e y g o t f r o m t h e o f fic e w h i c h w a s w e ll a f t e r t e n o ’ c l o c k
in t h e n ig h t .

S o I th o u g h t it w a s a li t tl e fu n n y t h a t w e s p e n d i n g s o

m u c h t i m e t h e r e y o u k n o w h o u r s g iv i n g a b r i e fi n g t o t h e [i n d is t in c t ] .
Yo u k n o w w h y w e w e r e d o i n g th a t s o h e t o l d m e t h a t o h d o y o u n o t
20

k n o w a lr e a d y th a t h i s s o n i s a s h a r e h o ld e r in t h is a n d t h a t is w h e n I g o t
t o k n o w a b o u t it – a b o u t h i s d ir e c t i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h e p r o je c t. A n d a ls o
a b o u t t h e p o t e n t ia l c o n fl ic t o f i n t e r e s t .

I w a s a ls o t o l d a b o u t a r o u n d

t h a t t i m e th a t w h y t h e P r e s id e n t w a s i n v o lv e d in t h i s p r o j e c t w a s
b e c a u s e h e w o u l d t h e n in f lu e n c e c o m m e r c ia l d e c i s i o n s a s w e ll in te r ms
o f t h e a d v e r t is in g t h a t t h e y w i ll g e t f r o m t h e v a r i o u s [i n d i s ti n c t ]

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
a g e n c ie s a n d m i n is tr i e s a n d s i n c e h is s o n w a s a s h a r e h o l d e r i n i t h e
w o u ld

get

a

p o r ti o n

of

th a t .

So

t h is

is

something

that

was

a c k n o w l e d g e d v e r y o p e n l y b y t h e t e a m t h a t i n c lu d in g N a z e e m a n d i t
w a s s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s v e r y v a lu a b l e t o t h e s t a ff t h e r e y o u k n o w to t h e
senior management that that was the arrangement we had – the
p r e s i d e n t w o u l d h e lp g e t th e g o v e r n m e n t a d v e r t is in g a n d t h e i n fl u e n c e
in o t h e r w a y s u s i n g h is h ig h o ffi c e a n d w h a t e v e r c o m m e r c ia l b e n e fi ts
t h a t c a m e o f i t a p o r t io n o f th a t w o u l d g o b a c k t o h is s o n a n d w h i c h I
t h o u g h t w a s a c le a r c o n f li c t o f i n t e r e s t w h ic h e v e r y b o d y s e e m e d to b e
10

v e r y h a p p y a b o u t a t t h a t p o in t . S o t h e w h o l e i d e a w a s t h a t M r L a x m i
G o e l w h o w a s in t h e j o in t v e n t u r e w o u l d b r i n g i n t h e - y o u k n o w s i n c e
h e c a m e fr o m a f a m ily o f b r o a d c a s t e r s h e w o u l d m a k e th e i n v e s t m e n ts
a n d t h e t e c h n o lo g y. T h e a c tu a l r e a l e s t a t e th e o ffic e a n d t h e in f l u e n c e
w o u ld b e t h e G u p t a f a m il y a n d D u d u z a n e w a s t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e n h e
w o u ld u s e h i s fa t h e r ’s o ff ic e t o g e t c o m m e r c i a l b e n e f i ts fo r th e
t e l e v i s i o n s ta t io n w h ic h w o u l d t h e n b e s h a r e d b y a l l t h e t h r e e p a r t n e r s .
A n d Mr D u d u z a n e w o u l d g e t t o t h e e x t e n t o f o w n e r s h ip t h a t h e h a d i n
t h e s t a ti o n a s h a r e o f th e p r o f i ts .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

20

A n d a l l o f t h a t – t h a t is n o t

s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s d i s c u s s e d a t a n y o f t h e m e e ti n g s is w h a t y o u h e a r d
o u t s i d e th e m e e t in g s w h e r e t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s – w a s p r e s e n t . B e c a u s e
m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t y o u w e r e n o t p a r t o f th e m e e ti n g s th a t w e
d e a li n g w i t h b u s i n e s s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : No I was not – I was not part of that. That
was you know we were – Arum Aggarwal and me we were asked to

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
m o v e o u t a n d o n ly th e n t h o s e t h i n g s to o k p l a c e . B u t h o w w e f o u n d o u t
a b o u t th a t w a s w h e n e v e r th e r e w a s w h a t i s k n o w n a s a n e x e c u t iv e
c o m m i t t e e m e e t in g w h ic h w a s a ll t h e e x e c u tiv e s m e e ti n g s in t h e
m o r n in g t o d is c u s s w h a t a r e t h e c h a l le n g e s , w h a t a r e t h e is s u e s , w h a t
a r e t h e a c h i e v e m e n t s . S o m e o f t h o s e is s u e s w h ic h w e r e d is c u s s e d i n
t h e s e c o n d h a l f w e r e b r o u g h t i n th e r e .

T h a t is h o w I k n e w a b o u t t h e

in d e p e n d e n t c o ll e c ti o n c o m m i s s i o n h o w y o u k n o w th e N e w A g e h a d to
s p e a k w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t t o g e t a s h a r e o f t h e – t h e m i lli o n s o f d o l la r s
t h a t th e y h a d – m ill i o n s o f r a n d s t h a t t h e y h a d i n a d v e r t is in g .
10

Or the

k in d o f i n fl u e n c e y o u k n o w f o r i n s t a n c e in t h a t e x e c u ti v e c o m m i t te e
t h e r e w il l b e s o m e b o d y fr o m – fr o m th e m a r k e ti n g te a m w h o w o u l d
c o m e a n d s a y w e l l w e w a n t s u c h a n d s u c h a m in is t e r a n d w e a l s o w a n t
h is m i n is tr y t o p a y f o r t h e v e n u e a n d t h e b r e a k f a s t t h a t is p r o v i d e d
t h e r e b u t th e y s e e m a l i t tl e r e l u c t a n t s o p r o b a b l y w e s h o u ld t a k e i t u p
in th e n e x t m e e t in g s a n d – w i th P r e s i d e n t Zu m a a n d h e w o u l d u s e h is
in fl u e n c e to g e t t h a t m i n is t e r t o c o m e f o r t h i s .

And any of the other

c h a l le n g e s t h a t t h e y h a d w o u l d b e d i s c u s s e d th e r e a n d th a t is h o w I
c a m e t o k n o w a b o u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g i n t h e s e c o n d h a l f o f t h e
m e e ti n g s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A l r ig h t o k a y. Th a n k y o u . A n d
t h e n – s o is t h e r e a n y th i n g e l s e i n 2 5 .1 8 t h a t y o u w a n t t o h i g h li g h t
b e f o r e w e m o v e o n t o th e th ir d m e e t in g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J a s o t h i s i s h o w i t w a s y o u k n o w. B u t th e y
h a d a s i m il a r m o d e l w h i c h w a s w o r k in g f o r t h e N e w A g e a n d t h a t i s t h e
m o d e l t h a t t h e y w a n t to r e p li c a t e h e r e . T h e d i ff e r e n c e b e in g th a t t h e y

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w o u ld h a v e L a x m i G o e l h e r e w h o w o u l d b r i n g i n t h e i n v e s t m e n ts th a t
w o u ld g o i n to s e t t in g u p t h e i n fr a s tr u c t u r e a n d t h is w a s p r e t ty m u c h t h e
routine that was there.

T h e u t il it y o f e a c h o f t h e p a r t n e r s w a s L a x m i

G o e l w o u ld b r in g i n t h e m o n e y t h a t w o u l d m a k e th e in fr a s tr u c t u r e th e
G u p t a Br o t h e r s w o u l d h a v e t h e r e a l e s t a te a n d y o u k n o w th e y w i ll
p r o v i d e t h e i n fr a s tr u c tu r e in t e r m s o f th e s i tu a ti o n i n S o u t h A f r i c a a n d
P r e s i d e n t Zu m a t h r o u g h D u d u z a n e w o u l d e n s u r e t h a t th e r e w a s a
h e a lt h y fl o w o f c o m m e r c ia ls t h a t c a m e i n f r o m th e g o v e r n m e n t s id e a n d
e a c h o f th e m g o t a s h a r e o f t h a t m o n e y t h r o u g h t h e ir o w n e r s h i p a s
10

d iv i d e n d s a s { i n d i s t i n c t ].
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Okay thank you.

And then

c o u l d y o u t h e n te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g t h a t y o u
s a y t o o k p la c e a n d w h e n d i d i t ta k e p l a c e a n d w h e r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O h t h is w a s i n t h e f ir s t w e e k o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 3
I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t d a t e b u t u n l ik e t h e o t h e r m e e t in g s t h i s
t o o k p l a c e in t h e e v e n i n g . I r e m e m b e r th a t … I a m s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. M s N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t t o – f o r t h e c o m m is s i o n to l o o k a t
20

t h e – a t g o v e r n m e n t a d v e r t is e m e n t s t h a t w e n t i n to b o t h t h e N e w A g e
a n d A N N 7 o v e r a c e r t a i n p e r i o d o f ti m e a n d t o s e e h o w i t g r e w.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f i t d i d g r o w. I k n o w th a t t h e r e w a s e v i d e n c e g i v e n I
t h i n k l a s t y e a r o r e v e n e a r ly th is y e a r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e l a ti o n t o G C I S .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t i t is i m p o r t a n t t o h a v e a c le a r i d e a o f a l l

g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s a n d p a r a s ta t a l s t o w h a t e x t e n t t h e r e m a y h a v e
b e e n g o v e r n m e n t a d v e r tis e m e n ts th a t w e n t t h e r e a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t i f
a n y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

It might have

been

d i ff e r e n t fr o m g o v e r n m e n t

a d v e r t is e m e n ts th a t g o – t h a t w e n t t o a n y o th e r T V s ta t io n .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n e w s p a p e r s a n d c o m p a r e . I k n o w th a t w h e n I w a s
– I h a d e v id e n c e i n r e l a t i o n t o G C I S I w a s s h o w n g r a f t s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

A s t o h o w i t g r e w fr o m a c e r t a i n l e v e l t o a c e r t a i n

le v e l i n r e g a r d t o c e r t a i n d e p a r t m e n t s i n c lu d in g c e r ta in p r e m ie r ’s
o ffic e s a n d s o o n . I s ti ll h a v e a r e c o l le c ti o n o f th a t
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t to h a v e a l o o k a t th a t w it h
r e fe r e n c e to t h e d a te s o f th e m e e ti n g s t h a t th e w i t n e s s i s t a l k i n g a b o u t .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n b e fo r e ? W h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n
a ft e r ? D o e s i t a p p e a r l ik e t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e a n in c r e a s e o r n o t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : As a matter of fact.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n w h a t o n e c a n m a k e o f th a t i s a n o t h e r m a t te r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s th e r e is a b i t t h a t w e h a v e
d o n e w i th t h e o n e w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a t w e i n te n d t o c a l l .
CHAIRPERSON : YEs.
ADV

THANDI

V I C TO R I A

NORMAN

SC:

Where

she

has

o n ly

c o n c e n tr a t e d o n t h e S A B C a n d a l l th e o t h e r T V s ta t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
10

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d y e s b u t i t is l i m it e d . B u t I
h e a r y o u C h a ir w e c o u l d p e r h a p s ju s t e x p a n d o n t h a t b e fo r e w e c a l l
that witness.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u . Ye s M r
S u n d a r a m y o u s a i d y o u c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e d a te i t w a s i n 2 0 1 3 a n d i n

20

r e l a ti o n to t h e l a u n c h o f t h e A N N 7 w h e n e x a c tl y d o y o u t h in k i t to o k
p l a c e ? Wa s i t a d a y b e f o r e th e l a u n c h o r w a s i t …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o t h is w a s a b o u t a f e w w e e k s b e f o r e th e

la u n c h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

S o b e c a u s e t h e la u n c h w a s i n – a f e w

Page 138 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w e e k s b e f o r e b e c a u s e I th i n k th is i s i n A u g u s t s o m e ti m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u l d n o t r e c a ll t h e e x a c t d a te b u t t h e la s t m e e ti n g
w h ic h is t h e f o u r t h m e e ti n g w a s o n e d a y b e fo r e t h e la u n c h t h a t is w h e n
t h e P r e s i d e n t c a m e t o t h e M i d r a n d o ffi c e o f A N N 7 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B u t th is h a p p e n e d i n – a t th e r e s i d e n c e , t h e
s a m e p l a c e i n Pr e t o r i a a t h i s r e s i d e n c e . W e fir s t w e n t t o th e r o o m o n
t h e r ig h t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is i s n o w t h e th ir d m e e ti n g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e th ir d m e e t i n g y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s ,
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o w e f ir s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k s t a r t fr o m h o w i t c a m e a b o u t t h a t y o u w e r e t o l d
a b o u t t h e m e e t in g a n d s o o n .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J a I w a s t o ld i n t h e m o r n i n g y o u k n o w w h il e
I w a s b u s y w i t h p r o d u c t io n o f t h e d r iv e [i n d is t in c t] b u ll e ti n s th a t w e
w e r e m a k in g . I w a s t o l d t h a t w e h a v e t o g o i n t h e e v e n i n g t o m e e t th e
P r e s i d e n t a n d t h a t w e h a v e t o ta k e s a m p le s o f t h e b e s t b u ll e ti n s t h a t

20

we produced.

S o I w a s n o t p r o u d o f t h e b u ll e ti n s w e w e r e m a k in g a t

t h a t t i m e b e c a u s e h a l f t h e e q u ip m e n t h a d n o t c o m e , th e tr a in in g w a s
n o t c o m p l e t e a n d t h is w a s j u s t s o m e t h i n g th a t w e w e r e d o i n g fo r
in t e r n a l c o n s u m p t io n . S o I w a s n o t v e r y h a p p y w i th s h o w i n g th a t a s a
p r o o f o f w h a t t h e q u a li t y o f th e s t a ti o n w o u l d b e a t t h a t t i m e . B u t I w a s
t o l d th a t o h y o u d o n o t w o r r y a b o u t t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t w o u l d n o t k n o w

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
a b o u t q u a l i ty a n d p r o d u c ti o n a n d a l l o f t h a t .

Yo u b r i n g w h a te v e r i s

t h e r e a n d w e w i ll s h o w i t to h i m . B e c a u s e I t h in k t h e r e w a s a t h o u g h t
t h a t y o u k n o w y o u c a n s h o w h i m a l o t o f p r e s e n t a ti o n s o n p a p e r b u t i f
h e a c t u a l ly s e e s a b u l le t in – i f h e a c tu a l ly s e e s a g r a p h ic t h a t w il l
c o n v e y m u c h m o r e to h is m i n d t h a t ju s t s e e i n g e m p t y p r e s e n t a ti o n s . S o
they were very – very eager to show what was being produced.

And

t h is w a s a ls o t h e f ir s t m e e t i n g i n w h ic h D u d u z a n e w a s p r e s e n t .

So I

r e m e m b e r th e – w e w e r e u s h e r e d i n to t h e r o o m – m e e ti n g o n th e r i g h t
w h e r e D u d u z a n e h a d c o m e in a n d h e w a s t o l d b y t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s
10

t h a t y o u k n o w w e h a v e a s u r p r is e f o r y o u t o d a y a n d w e h a v e a b u ll e ti n
w h ic h w e h a v e p r o d u c e d a n d a ll o f t h a t .

A n d in p r e p a r a t io n f o r t h e

m e e ti n g A s h u C h a w l a w a s a s k e d t o a r r a n g e fo r a p la y e r y o u k n o w w e
h a d r e c o r d e d th e b u l l e t i n o n a c h i p a n d t h a t c h i p w a s t o b e p l a y e d
b e f o r e t h e P r e s id e n t o n a p la y e r.

A n d a ls o t h e r e w a s a b r o a d c a s t

m o n i t o r th a t w a s b r o u g h t i n fo r t h i s p a r ti c u la r m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON :

H m b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d I a m s o r r y.

T h e f ir s t t w o

m e e ti n g s a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e w e r e a t th e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffi c i a l
r e s id e n c e i n Pr e to r i a ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s th e t h ir d m e e t i n g a t t h e s a m e v e n u e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J a t h e s a m e v e n u e . I t w a s th e s a m e v e n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e s a m e r o o m ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h e r e w e r e t w o r o o m s h e r e y o u k n o w. W e

in it i a l ly s t a r te d a t t h e r o o m t o t h e r i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B u t t h e n w h e n w e t o l d D u d u z a n e th a t w e

h a v e t h e s e b u l le t in s t h a t w e w a n t t o s h o w h i m h e s a i d , w h y d o w e n o t
c o m e t o t h e o t h e r r o o m t h e r e is a l a r g e T V th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : And we can show it to him there.
CHAIRPERSON : YEs.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A n d t h a t w a s a r o o m w h ic h h a d a l o t o f

s e a ti n g a r r a n g e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h e r e w a s a l a r g e T V o n o n e s i d e o n th e

w a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d w h e n w e w e r e t r y i n g t o h o o k t h e w ir e s
w e r e a l is e d th a t t h e w ir e t h a t w e h a d g o t w i t h u s w e w e r e s h o r t o n t h a t
– t h e c a b l e w a s s h o r t . S o t h e n w e d e c id e d t o g o w i th th e p la n e v e n t o
s h o w h i m o n th e s m a l l m o n i t o r th a t w e g o t w i th u s .

S o w e w e r e to ld

t h a t th e Pr e s id e n t is c o m in g i n to th a t r o o m a n d w e q u i c k ly p u t t h a t
t o g e th e r a n d s h o w e d h i m t h e b u l le t in s .

B u t th is w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e

D u d u z a n e – I h a d m e t D u d u z a n e a n d h e w a s a c t u a l ly lo o k i n g a t
20

s o m e t h i n g a n d h e w a s e x c i te d a b o u t th a t th e f a c t t h a t b u ll e ti n s h a d
b e e n p r o d u c e d a n d h e w a s k n o w i n g t h a t i t a c t u a ll y g o t t o a s t a g e w h e r e
w e w e r e m a k i n g a ll o f t h is .
CHAIRPERSON :

D id y o u – b e f o r e t h i s m e e t in g w i th th a t m e e ti n g h a d

y o u in t h e m e a n ti m e m e t M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a o r w e r e y o u m e e t i n g h i m
f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e a t th is m e e ti n g ?

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I w a s m e e t in g h i m f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I w a s a c t u a l ly i n tr o d u c e d to h i m f o r t h e f ir s t
ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I n t h e r o o m o n t h e r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Yo u k n o w b e c a u s e th a t is w h e n h e s a i d w e
w i ll g o t o t h e o t h e r r o o m a n d h e to o k u s a l l to t h a t o th e r r o o m .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W h ic h w a s t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you. And in paragraph

2 6 y o u m e n ti o n t h a t M r W i ll ia m s w a s n o t a t th a t m e e t i n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : He was not at that meeting because he was
in C a p e To w n o n th a t d a y a n d a ls o b y t h a t ti m e t h e r e w a s s e r io u s
d i ff e r e n c e s th a t M r A r u n A g g a r w a l h a d w i t h th e G u p t a f a m ily. T h is w a s
a b i t o f a t o u g h w a r y o u k n o w b e c a u s e w e h a d tw o jo i n t v e n t u r e
p a r t n e r s w h o w e r e d e e p l y s u s p ic io u s o f e a c h o th e r.
t h e G u p t a fa m i ly.
20

Laxmi Goel and

S o t h e r e a s o n w h y th e y w e r e u p s e t w i t h A r u n

A g g a r w a l w a s b e c a u s e h e w a s b r o u g h t i n h e a d o f b u s in e s s a n d h e
represented Mr Laxmi Goel.

But he was not given access to the

fi n a n c i a l s o f th e c o m p a n y. A s a m a t te r o f f a c t it w a s t h e C F O o f t h e
G u p t a fa m i ly w h o w a s r u n n i n g th e w h o l e o p e r a ti o n s a n d e v e r y ti m e M r
Aggarwal wanted to meet her she would deny him an appointment, keep
h a n g i n g . I f h e w a n t e d s o m e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s n o t g iv e n t o h i m a n d

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h a t i s w h e n I r e a li s e d th a t th e r e w a s s o m e k in d o f a tu s s le g o i n g o n
b e t w e e n th e jo in t v e n tu r e p a r tn e r s a s w e l l y o u k n o w i n te r ms o f s h a r i n g
fi n a n c i a l i n fo r m a t i o n .

I n t e r m s o f s h a r in g w h e r e t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s

in v e s t e d o r b r o u g h t i n to t h e p r o j e c t w a s b e in g in v e s t e d a n d p u t o u t . S o
t h e r e w a s r e l u c t a n c e o n th e p a r t o f t h e G u p ta ’s to s h a r e th a t w it h t h e m .
A n d t h e y a ls o w o u l d s n u b Mr Ar u n A g g a r w a l a t e v e r y o c c a s i o n th a t th e y
c o u l d g e t to t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y w o u l d d e n y h i m a c c e s s .
c o m e a n d s it i n t h e o ff ic e t h e w h o l e d a y w i th n o w o r k .

He would
He had an

a c c o u n t a n t w h o w a s r e p o r ti n g i n t o h i m a n d th a t a c c o u n t a n t w h o w a s a
10

y o u n g b o y o f – i n h i s e a r l y tw e n ti e s w a s a ls o g e t ti n g d i r e c t i n s tr u c t io n s
fr o m t h e C F O fr o m t h e G u p ta s i d e a n d a ls o fr o m t h e G u p ta f a m ily
d ir e c t ly. S o t h e y w e r e g iv in g h i m a n – a s e n s e t h a t h e w a s n o t r e q u ir e d
a n y m o r e a n d t h e r e a n d th a t h e is n o t w e l c o m e . A n d i n t h a t m e e ti n g I
w a s t o l d v e r y b l u n t ly w h e n I a s k e d N a z e e m w h e th e r M r A r u n A g g a r w a l
s h o u l d b e in f o r m e d a b o u t i t .

H e s a i d n o w e d o n o t r e a l ly n e e d t o

in v o lv e h i m a n y m o r e in t h e p r o j e c t. S o t h e y h a d d e c i d e d u n i l a t e r a l ly t o
ju s t g e t r id o f h i m a n d tr u e e n o u g h I t h i n k i n a f e w w e e k s t h e y c r e a t e d
s u c h c o n d it i o n s t h a t h e h a d t o g o b a c k t o I n d i a a n d – b e c a u s e t h e y h a d
c li p p e d h is w i n g s a n d m a d e h i m i n e ffe c tiv e i n th e o p e r a ti o n s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o t h e n a t th a t t h ir d

m e e ti n g m i n u s th e t w o .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n y o u r s e l f

w h o e ls e w a s t h e r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e r e w a s A j a y G u p ta , A t u l G u p t a , N a z e e m

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
H o w a a n d m e a n d D u d u z a n e w h o a ls o [i n d is t in c t] u p a n d th e P r e s i d e n t
w h o c a m e d ir e c t ly to t h e r o o m o n t h e r i g h t o f t h e e n tr a n c e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O n t h e le f t a c t u a l ly, to th e l e f t o f t h e

e n tr a n c e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d w h e n y o u s a y i t w a s

h e l d i n t h e e v e n i n g w h a t t i m e m o r e o r l e s s w a s i t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I w o u l d n o t r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y b u t t h is w a s
– t h is – i t w o u l d b e a b o u t f o u r o r f iv e y o u k n o w e a r ly e v e n i n g .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : E a r ly e v e n in g .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A lr ig h t th a n k y o u .

A n d th e n

c o u l d y o u t h e n t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t h a p p e n e d w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d
a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e l l a t th a t m e e ti n g t h e y s h o w e d t h e

P r e s i d e n t t h e – y o u k n o w th e b u l le t in s t h a t h a d b e e n p r o d u c e d . L i k e I
s a i d I w a s n o t v e r y k e e n th a t th e y s h o w th o s e to t h e P r e s i d e n t b e c a u s e
t h o s e w e r e n o t p r o d u c e d v e r y w e ll . W e d i d n o t h a v e a fu ll y o p e r a ti o n a l
p r o d u c t io n c o n tr o l r o o m a n d m o s t o f t h e s e b u l l e t i n s h a d b e e n p r o d u c e d
20

o n a n o n l in e a r e d i t in g s y s te m y o u k n o w w h i c h i s b a s ic a l ly o n a
ti m e li n e . A n d i t h a d a lo t o f r o u g h e d g e s . A ls o t h e a n g l e s th e r e w e r e
very – very raw and you know there were a lot of fumbles and
h e s i t a ti o n s i n e a c h o f t h e y o u k n o w m u lt ip l e ta k e s th a t w e r e t h e r e
w h ic h w e r e n o t e d i t e d o u t p r o p e r ly. B u t t h e y i n s is t e d t h a t w e s h o w t h is
t o h i m . T h e P r e s id e n t w a lk e d i n to t h e r o o m a n d w e h a d c o n n e c t e d t h a t

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t e l e v i s i o n w i th t h e s m a l l m o n i to r a n d h e s a w t h e b u l l e t i n . I – I w o u ld
h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t – y o u k n o w – t h e H e a d o f S t a te a n d t h e k i n d o f o t h e r
a p p o i n t m e n ts th a t h e w o u ld h a v e h e w o u l d j u s t p r o b a b ly s e e i f fo r t w o
m i n u t e s a n d t h e n j u s t m o v e o n b u t t o m y s u r p r is e h e s a w a f u l l 1 5
m i n u t e s o f th e b u ll e ti n t h a t w a s p r o d u c e d v e r y in t e n t ly a n d t h a t w a s
b e f o r e o n e o f th e G u p ta b r o t h e r s s a i d o k a y. Yo u h a v e s e e n it . S o w e
ju s t f o r w a r d to t h e n e x t b u l l e t i n . S o h e s a id n o I w a n t t o s e e t h e w h o le
thing.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h a t is w h e n D u d u z a n e c a m e i n a n d s a i d

t h a t o h - y o u k n o w - p r o b a b l y d a d d y w a n ts t o – h e is – h e is i m p r e s s e d
b y th e a n c h o r s a n d h e w a n ts t o l o o k a t th e m . T h a t i s w h y h e w a n ts t o
w a t c h i t a n d n o t b e c a u s e o f a n y th i n g e l s e a n d t h e r e w a s la u g h t e r i n –
in th e r o o m a t t h a t ti m e . A ls o D u d u z a n e w a s t h e o n e w h o i n tr o d u c e d t o
h is f a th e r t h e f a c t t h a t t h e s e b u l le t in s w e r e m a d e a n d h e s a i d y o u k n o w
d a d w e h a v e g o t t h e s e b u ll e ti n s b u t t h e n a f e w m i n u te s b e fo r e th a t h e
d i d n o t e v e n k n o w th a t – y o u k n o w – w h a t t h e s t a t u s o f t h e p r o j e c t w a s
o r w h e t h e r th e b u l le t in s w e r e b e i n g in tr o d u c e d .

H e w a s ju s t c a l le d a

f e w m i n u t e s b e f o r e b y t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s t h a t th e y h a d g o t b u l le t in s t o
20

s h o w h i s f a t h e r.

S o y e s a n d th e G u p t a b r o t h e r s w e r e j u s t s m i li n g

in d u l g e n tl y w h e n h e w a s d o i n g a l l o f t h a t – y o u k n o w – t h a t c h a r a d e in
fr o n t o f u s a n d h i s f a t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w i f th e fir s t t w o m e e ti n g s w e r e o n a S u n d a y w a s
t h is o n e a l s o o n a S u n d a y ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h is w a s a w e e k d a y.

Page 145 of 225

To th e b e s t o f m y

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
knowledge …
CHAIRPERSON : A week day?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d a ls o – y o u k n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e e v e n i n g , d u r i n g t h e d a y ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o t h i s w a s in t h e e v e n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s w a s th e e v e n i n g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON : During …?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B e t w e e n f o u r a n d fi v e – i f I r e m e m b e r

c o r r e c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A w o r k in g d a y ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n y t h i n g i n 2 8 . 3 a n d fo u r
t h a t y o u w a n t t o h i g h li g h t ?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o t h i s is – y o u k n o w – I h a v e g i v e n d e t a il s
a b o u t h o w w h e n I w a s i n t h e p r o d u c ti o n c o n tr o l r o o m w it h t h e b u ll e ti n
t h a t is w h e n I g o t a c a ll s a y i n g t h a t w e h a v e a P r e s id e n t – a n
a p p o i n t m e n t w it h t h e P r e s i d e n t in t h e e v e n i n g .
r e v ie w o f t h e p r o j e c t .

H e w a n ts a q u i c k

S o t h is is s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s s o u g h t b y t h e

P r e s i d e n t . Th a t w a s t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t I w a s g i v e n b y A t u l G u p t a th a t

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d s o u g h t a r e v i e w – a m e e ti n g a n d t h a t – t h a t h e w o u l d
lik e to s e e b u l l e t i n s th a t w e h a v e p r o d u c e d o v e r t h e la s t f e w d a y s . W e
h a v e t o m a k e h i m h a p p y t o m a k e s u r e th a t w e t a k e th e b u ll e ti n s t o h i m .
T h e m a j o r i ty o f t h e s t o r ie s s h o w h i m i n g o o d li g h t . I d o n o t w a n t t h e
b u ll e ti n s to b e fi ll e d w i t h M a l e m a .

T h is w a s a r o u n d th e ti m e w h e n

M a le m a h a d j u s t le f t t h e A N C a n d h is – h e h a d s t a r te d h is o w n p o li t ic a l
p a r t y a n d th a t w a s t h e t i m e a ls o w h e r e th e – t h e b r o t h e r s w a n te d u s to
h a v e b u ll e ti n s t h a t w e r e – th a t w e r e f u l l o f g o o d i m a g e s o f th e
P r e s i d e n t a n d h a d v e r y l i tt l e – b u t t h i s w a s th e ti m e w h e n w e w e r e
10

p r o d u c in g b u ll e ti n s w it h o u t a n y p u t ti n g p r e s s u r e o n t h e t e a m a n d th e y
h a d m a d e th e s e b u l le t in s b a s e d o n th e n e w s p r i o r i t ie s o f t h e d a y a n d i t
w a s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t s h o w e d t h e P r e s i d e n t in g o o d li g h t o r M a l e m a
in b a d l ig h t o r w h a t e v e r. S o – s o w h e n w e – w h e n w e t o o k th is – a ls o –
y o u k n o w – th e p r e s e n ta t io n w a s v e r y r a w. I t w a s n o t v e r y p r o f e s s i o n a l
b u t – b u t I t h i n k e v e n th is n o b o d y t o o k a d v a n t a g e – y o u k n o w – th e
P r e s i d e n t w a s w a tc h in g i t .

T h e r e w a s ju s t o n e c l ip b y t h a t ti m e t h e y

h a d g o t fr o m t h e S A B C w h ic h w a s o f J u l iu s M a l e m a tr a v e l li n g i n a
h e li c o p t e r.

S o – w h ic h A ja y G u p t a k n e w n o t h i n g a b o u t b u t h e – h e

c r e a te d a s t o r y r i g h t i n fr o n t o f t h e P r e s i d e n t t h e r e b e c a u s e ( i n d i s t i n c t)
20

s e e n t h e b u ll e ti n .

There was a story on Malema that he was in a

c h o p p e r. S o h e a s k e d m e p a s s t h e b u l le t i n a n d t o ld t h e P r e s i d e n t lo o k
– y o u k n o w - w e a r e s h o w in g M a l e m a a s s o m e b o d y w h o i s – y o u k n o w h e is s o m e b o d y w h o is c o r r u p t w h o l ik e s t o liv e i n l u x u r y w h o l ik e s t o
tr a v e l i n h e l ic o p t e r s .

S o w it h o u t s a y in g a w o r d in t h e v o i c e o v e r th e

p e o p l e w h o – b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e th e v is u a ls th a t t h e y a r e u s i n g o f h i m

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
b u t t h e tr u th is t h a t t h a t w a s t h e o n ly v is u a l t h a t w e h a d o f
J u l i u s M a l e m a a n d t h a t is w h a t th e te a m h a d u s e d t h e r e – y o u k n o w.
S o t h e r e w a s n o i n t e n t io n t o d o t h a t b u t h e t u r n e d it a r o u n d a n d h e s a id
lik e y o u s a id l a s t t i m e t h a t w e s h o u l d u s e s u b tl e ti e s li k e t h is a n d t h a t i s
what we have done.

He said that.

He made it up and said that to

i m p r e s s t h e P r e s i d e n t . S o t h a t is s o m e t h i n g …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s . I n 2 8 . 4 y o u m e n ti o n th a t

t h e r e w e r e a g r o u p o f m o d e ls t h a t w e r e h ir e d a n d w e r e t r a in e d . W e r e
t h e s e m o d e ls tr a i n e d t o r e a d th e n e w s ? W h a t w e r e t h e y d o i n g ?
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A g a i n y o u k n o w t h is i s s o m e t h i n g th a t w e

h a d to c o n te n d w i t h b e c a u s e y o u k n o w o f m a n y o f t h e p r o fe s s i o n a l
p r e s e n t e r s w e r e r e l u c t a n t to j o in A N N 7 a t t h a t ti m e b e c a u s e o f i ts
a s s o c i a t i o n w i t h th e G u p t a F a m ily.

M a n y o f th e c r e d i b l e jo u r n a li s ts

w o u ld n o t w a n t t o h a v e a n y t h i n g t o d o w i t h i t a n d e v e n t h o s e li k e f o r
in s t a n c e N a z e e m w o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t w e c o u l d g e t a fe w o f th e
p r o m in e n t j o u r n a li s ts b u t t h e G u p t a s t h e n w o u ld h a v e r e s o l u ti o n s a b o u t
h ir i n g t h e m – y o u k n o w. T h e y w o u ld c a ll th e m a ll k in d s o f o b n o x i o u s
n a m e s w h ic h I c a n n o t m e n ti o n r i g h t n o w a n d s a y b u t n o w e d o n o t w a n t
t h a t – y o u k n o w - b e c a u s e t h a t t h e y w i ll b e a g a i n s t t h i s o r a g a in s t t h a t .
20

S o t h a t p u t u s i n a – i n a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e w e d i d n o t h a v e p r e s e n te r s .
S o t h e o n ly o p t i o n t h e n w a s to h i r e a t a h ig h e r s a l a r y jo u r n a l is ts b u t I
t h i n k a ls o t h e y w e r e v e r y s u s p ic i o u s o f t h e j o u r n a li s t s .

Th e y th o u g h t

t h a t t h e y w o u l d n o t d r a w t h e l in e th a t th e y w a n t e d t o . S o – s o t h e n t h a t
is w h e n A t u l G u p ta g o t u p o n e d a y a n d s u g g e s t e d t h a t le t u s h ir e
m o d e ls a n d h e a s k e d A s la m o r t h e r e is a m o d e ll in g a g e n c y th a t i s –

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e h a v e u s e d in th e p a s t – a s k e d t h e m to s e n d a d o z e n
m o d e ls a n d w e w ill t r a in t h e m t o b e p r e s e n te r s .

Yo u k n o w – I h a d

o b j e c ti o n s a t t h a t ti m e n o t b e c a u s e I d i d n o t t h in k t h o s e y o u n g la d ie s
w o u ld b e a b l e t o d o i t b u t y o u k n o w n e w s i s s o m e t h in g th a t a c q u i r e s
e x p e r i e n c e . A s e n s e a b o u t w h a t is b e in g r e a d . J o u r n a li s m is n o t j u s t a
p r e t t y f a c e r e a d i n g th e n e w s b u t i t is m u c h m o r e th a n t h a t . I t r e q u i r e s
a d e e p u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e is s u e s .

Yo u a r e s u p p o s e d t o a s k

q u e s t io n s – y o u k n o w – e s p e c i a lly w h e n i t is l iv e t e l e v is i o n w h e n y o u
h a v e li v e s o u r c e s th a t a r e c o m in g o u t.
10

Yo u h a v e t o a s k q u e s t i o n s o r

y o u e n d u p b e c o m i n g th e l a u g h i n g s t o c k . Yo u k n o w i f th o s e q u e s ti o n s
are not sharp enough or if they are not focused enough by my
o b j e c ti o n s w e r e o v e r r u l e d lik e m a n y o t h e r s b e f o r e t h a t a n d h e i n s is t e d
t h a t th e s e a n c h o r s c o m e i n . T h a t t h e y b e tr a i n e d b y a p r o f e s s i o n a l a n d
w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t a n d t o t h e ir c r e d i t t h e y w o r k e d r e a l ly h a r d , t h e y
w o r k e d l o n g h o u r s b u t t h e y w e r e n o t b e in g p a i d m u c h . I t h i n k th e o n l y
in c e n ti v e fo r t h e m w a s t h a t t h e y w o u l d g e t to f e a t u r e o n t h e s ta t io n a n d
v e r y m u c h - n o t v e r y m u c h m o r e t h a n t h a t a n d t h e y d id p u t o n a b r a v e
face because – you know – here was a time when the technology was
v e r y, v e r y b a s i c .

20

M o s t o f th e e q u i p m e n t h a d n o t c o m e i n a n d – a n d

t h e y w e r e s ti ll o u t t h e r e a n d th e y w e r e s tr u g g li n g to p u t t h in g s t o g e t h e r.
S o – s o y e s m o s t o f t h e – y o u k n o w – w it h t h e f u m b l e s a n d t h i n g s w e r e
g e t t in g i n to t h e b u l le t in b e c a u s e th e a n c h o r is n o t f u l ly tr a i n e d y e t a n d
t h o s e a r e n o t p r o f e s s io n a l j o u r n a l is ts b u t t h e y w e r e m o d e l s w h o w e r e
r e a l ly s tr u g g li n g a n d tr y i n g h a r d t o fi t i n t o t h e – th e s l o t t h a t t h e y w e r e
g iv e n .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . O k a y, t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n
y o u – y o u th e n i n th a t v e r y p a r a g r a p h – 2 8 .6 – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . Yo u
t h e n – i t a p p e a r s i f t h is w a s t h e e n d o f th e m e e ti n g b e c a u s e y o u l e f t a t
07:00 pm.

W e r e y o u l e a v in g t h e o ffi c i a l – t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic i a l

r e s id e n c e o r w e r e y o u le a v in g – w h e r e w e r e y o u le a v in g a t 0 7 :0 0 p m ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W h ic h p o i n t is t h is ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 2 8 . 6 – t h a t – t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e
there.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

O k a y. S o w e w e r e l e a v i n g fr o m 0 7 :0 0 p m .

S o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I w o u l d c o r r e c t my s e l f .

It was not four to

fi v e b u t w e l e f t a t s e v e n s o i t w a s m o r e li k e 0 7 : 3 0 /0 8 : 0 0 th a t t h e
m e e ti n g s ta r t e d o r 0 7 :3 0 to …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O h , s o th is is t h e e v e n in g b a c k
to the time when you left …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : F o r t h e m e e ti n g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I c a n c o r r e c t m y s e l f.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I t w a s n o t fo u r t o f iv e . I t w a s i n t h e e v e n i n g
…
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B u t l a t e r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A lr i g h t , o k a y.

A lr i g h t , th a n k

y o u a n d t h e n y o u – th e n y o u d e a l w i t h th e c o n v e r s a t io n i n th e c a r.

I

w o u ld i m a g i n e …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 2 8 . 7 .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

J a , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e v e r y a g i ta t e d a b o u t

t h e f a c t t h a t t h e I n d e p e n d e n t E l e c t io n C o m m is s i o n h a d n o t g i v e n th e
N e w A g e a n y a d v e r t is in g .
10

T h e y k n e w t h a t t h e r e w a s a m u l ti m i ll io n

R a n d b u d g e t t h a t t h e I E C h a d w h i c h w a s n o t a l l o c a t e d to t h e – t o N e w
A g e a n d t h e y s a i d th a t th e y w a n t e d t o b r i n g it u p a n d t h e c o n v e r s a t io n
g o i n g t o t h e – a n d i t i s li k e t h e la s t t i m e I w a s tr a v e l li n g w i th A ja y a n d
Nazeem.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d t h e y s a i d t h a t w e s h o u ld b r i n g t h is u p
a n d w e s h o u l d m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e I E C g iv e s u s o u r s h a r e o f t h e m o n e y
t h a t th e y h a v e . S o t h e y w e r e – t h e r e w a s a l m o s t a s e n s e o f ( i n d is ti n c t)
b o t h o f t h e m t h a t t h e y w e r e o b s e s s e d a b o u t t h i s t o p i c a n d th e y s a i d
t h a t t h e y w il l g o a n d t a l k a b o u t t h is a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t w e g e t o u r

20

s h a r e o f t h i s . S o i t w a s a l m o s t li k e h o w d a r e t h e In d e p e n d e n t E l e c ti o n
C o m m i s s i o n n o t p a y u s – n o t p a y t h is n e w s p a p e r a n d – y o u k n o w – w e
have to make sure that they do it – we have to make sure that they toe
t h e l i n e a n d a n y G o v e r n m e n t A g e n c y t h a t h a s a n y a m o u n t o f a l lo c a t io n
f o r a d v e r tis i n g th e y v e r y w e ll g iv e s u s a s h a r e – y o u k n o w. S o t h is w a s
a p o i n t th a t th e y w a n t e d t o p r o v e w i t h th e I E C .

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A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON : Well …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d m a y b e q u i te i m p o r ta n t fo r t h e
e v i d e n c e o f a n o t h e r w i t n e s s h o w h a s g iv e n e v id e n c e b e f o r e m e . A s I
u n d e r s t a n d y o u - a n d y o u m u s t j u s t t e ll m e i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly
– y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t – w a s i t N a z e e m ?

Yo u a r e s a y i n g h e w a s

in s is t in g th a t y o u – t h a t is t h e y – m u s t g e t t h e ir s h a r e o f th e a d v e r tis in g
r e v e n u e th a t th e I E C h a d . Is t h a t r i g h t ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s a n d d id y o u u s e t h e w o r d “ o b s e s s e d ” a s w e l l o r

d i d I h e a r s o m e th in g y o u d id n o t s a y ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Obsessed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O b s e s s e d , h u h - u h . I n t h e c o n te x t o f h o w t h e y w a n t e d
it .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o C h a ir. J a , w h a t I m e a n t b y t h a t w a s t h e y
w e r e v e r y a g i ta t e d a b o u t i t a n d - y o u k n o w – t h e y a l m o s t fe l t l ik e th a t
h o w d a r e t h i s G o v e r n m e n t A g e n c y w o u l d d o i t b e c a u s e w h y t h is s t a y s in
m y h e a d is t h a t i n In d i a t h e E l e c t io n C o m m is s i o n is s u p p o s e d t o b e a
20

c o n s ti t u ti o n a l b o d y w h ic h is i n d e p e n d e n t o f t h e G o v e r n m e n t a n d n o
a m o u n t o f in f lu e n c e – I m e a n t h e p o li t ic a l p a r ti e s – o f c o u r s e n o w w e
h a v e a l l k i n d s o f a ll e g a ti o n s th a t i t i s a c o m p r o m is e d o r g a n is a ti o n b u t
t o – t o t h in k t h a t th e – y o u k n o w t h e H e a d o f S t a t e t h e r e o r t h e P r i m e
M i n is t e r ’s O ffi c e in I n d i a c o u ld in f lu e n c e a d e c i s i o n o f th e I E C i s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t g o e s a g a i n s t t h e v e r y c h a r a c t e r o f t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n . S o

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I w a s a li t tl e i n tr ig u e d t h e r e – y o u k n o w – a b o u t h o w t h e Pr e s id e n t
c o u l d a c t u a ll y in f lu e n c e t h e I E C b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e tw o d i ff e r e n t b o d ie s
n a m e ly d e m o c r a c y. S o a n d th e y w e r e v e r y c l e a r t h a t t h e y w o u ld t a lk to
h i m a n d t h a t th e y w o u ld g e t a s h a r e b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a s s u r e d l a te r
o n t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u ld lo o k in t o a n d s p e a k w i t h th e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o t h a t i s f in e . I a m t r y i n g t o u n d e r – t o
m a k e s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s to o d y o u c o r r e c t ly. I th o u g h t y o u u s e d t h e w o r d
o b s e s s e d . S o I a m j u s t c h e c k in g w h e th e r I h e a r d y o u c o r r e c t ly.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I th i n k I s a i d o b s e s s e d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B u t w h a t I m e a n t w a s t h a t th e y w e r e v e r y

a g i ta t e d a n d t h e y w e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ve r y c l e a r th a t t h e y w o u ld g o a f t e r t h is

m e e ti n g a n d ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e y w a n t e d to g e t t h e ir …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir s h a r e o f th e r e v e n u e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A d v e r tis in g r e v e n u e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s a n d t h e y b e li e v e d v e r y f o r m a l ly t h a t if

t h e y t o o k i t u p w it h t h e P r e s i d e n t t h e y w o u ld g e t w h a t – w h a t w a s t h e r e
…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A n d t h e n t h is w a s a ls o a p o in t – a c a s e i n

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p o i n t – y o u k n o w – s o t h a t a n y o t h e r a g e n c y in t h e f u tu r e f o r g o t o r
d e li b e r a t e ly k e p t t h e N e w A g e o f th e ir a d v e r t is i n g c a m p a i g n o r – o r –
y o u k n o w – k e p t th e m o u t o f th e b u d g e t t h a t t h e y a r e a d v e r tis i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Th is w o u l d b e a c a s e to p o i n t t o s a y e v e n

t h a t th e I E C k e p t u s o u t a n d w e g o t t h e m i n . S o y o u – y o u k n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Yo u c a n d e n y u s b u t t h e n f i n a ll y y o u w il l

h a v e t o g iv e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s w e l l y o u s e e t h a t i s i n te r e s t i n g b e c a u s e o n e –

o n e w o u l d h a v e t o lo o k a t M r T h e m b a M a s h e g o ’s e v i d e n c e . Yo u m i g h t
n o t k n o w M r T h e m b a M a s h e g o . H e w a s o n e o f t h e f ir s t w i t n e s s e s w h o
gave

evidence

before

t h is

Commission

last

y e a r.

He

was

D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f a G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n t t h e n c a l l e d G C I S a n d h e
g a v e e v id e n c e h e r e to t h e e ff e c t t h a t M r Aj a y G u p ta a p p r o a c h e d h i m
a n d h is e v i d e n c e w a s i n p a r t m o r e o r le s s t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t
M r A j a y G u p t a w a s a w a r e th a t G C I S o r G o v e r n m e n t h a d s e t a s i d e a
c e r t a i n o f m o n e y. I t h i n k 6 0 0 …
A D V T H A N D I V I C T O R I A N O R M A N S C : M i l li o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w – 6 0 0 m i l li o n o r w h a t e v e r – h a d s e t i t
a s i d e f o r a d v e r t is in g a n d M r M a s h e g o t o l d m e t h a t i n h is d is c u s s i o n
w i t h M r Aj a y G u p ta M r A j a y G u p t a s e e m e d t o f e e l v e r y s t r o n g ly t h a t
t h e y s h o u l d b e – th a t i s I t h i n k t h e G u p ta b r o t h e r s o r t h e ir b u s i n e s s o r
b u s i n e s s e s – s h o u l d g e t a c e r ta in p o r ti o n o f t h a t r e v e n u e a n d o n t h e
e v i d e n c e – o n t h e v e r s i o n t h a t I w a s to ld b y M r M a s h e g o Mr M a s h e g o

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
was

resistant

to

that

a tt e m p t

and

according

to

h is

version

M r A j a y G u p t a d i d n o t – w a s n o t to o h a p p y a b o u t t h a t a n d s a i d c e r ta in
things

but if you

describe

th e c o n v e r s a t io n

that you

had

w it h

M r N a z e e m a n d h o w h e c o n v e y e d o r e x p r e s s e d h o w m u c h th e y w a n t e d
w h a t y o u c a l l th e i r s h a r e o f e v e r y t h i n g i t m a y b e t h a t t h e r e a r e s o m e
s i m il a r it i e s w i t h h o w M r A j a y G u p t a a c c o r d in g to M r M a s h e g o d e s c r i b e d
h o w m u c h th e y w a n t e d a c e r t a i n s h a r e o f t h a t r e v e n u e b u t th e
C o m m i s s i o n w i ll lo o k a t t h a t a n d c o m p a r e . O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N
10

M r C h a ir m a n .

SC:

Thank

you.

Thank

you

I n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 .7 a s u g g e s ti o n is m a d e th e r e t h a t

a p p a r e n t ly th is is s u e h a d b e e n r a i s e d w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d th a t o n
t h a t e v e n i n g y o u w e r e g o in g to g e t t h e r e s u l ts .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s a n d I t h i n k – i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly – I
h a d a c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h A j a y G u p t a a n d h e s a i d t h a t t h e y h a d h a d a
breakthrough.

H e d id g i v e m e s o m e fi g u r e s w h ic h I d o n o t r e m e m b e r

r ig h t n o w, b u t h e t o l d m e th a t t h e r e w a s a b r e a k t h r o u g h i n t h a t – i n t h a t
m e e ti n g .

T h e y h a d m a n a g e d t o g e t - I d o n o t k n o w i f a ll o f t h a t w a s

fr o m t h e I E C b u t fr o m o t h e r s . H e g a v e m e a f ig u r e o f – o f s o m e R a n d s
a n d h e s a i d t h a t th a t w a s h o w m u c h th e y h a d b e e n a b l e t o g e t p o s t t h a t
20

m e e ti n g . S o …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d – a n d w a s th is p a r t o f t h e
d is c u s s io n a ls o h e ld in y o u r p r e s e n c e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o t h a t w a s a d is c u s s io n th a t I h a d …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I t h i n k th e n e x t d a y w h e n h e c o m e to t h e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
s t u d i o . S o I w a s j u s t h a v in g a c o n v e r s a t io n w i th h i m a n d h e s a i d …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O h y o u k n o w – s o I a s k e d h i m a b o u t th e

m e e ti n g s t h a t th e y h a d j u s t o u t o f – y o u k n o w – m a k in g s m a ll t a l k a n d
h e s a id w e – w e a r e a lr e a d y s u c c e s s f u l a n d y o u k n o w in t h a t m e e ti n g
w e h a d t a k e n u p a lo t o f t h e s e th i n g s a n d w e g o t b u s i n e s s w o r t h X
a m o u n t – y o u k n o w - w h i c h I d o n o t r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly b u t i t s o u n d - i t
s o u n d e d li k e a fa s c i n a ti n g a m o u n t – fa n t a s ti c a m o u n t t o m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

So now you

a r e m o v e d t o a b i g g e r r o o m w h e r e t h e r e is a b ig g e r m o n i t o r ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n s i n th a t
room?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll t h e y ( i n d i s t in c t ) a n d t h e r e is o f c o u r s e
w e c o u l d n o t u s e t h e b i g T V s e t w h ic h w a s t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e c a b le t h a t
w e c a r r y i n g w a s n o t lo n g e n o u g h . S o i t w a s p la n A w h i c h w a s j u s t to
c o n n e c t i t t o t h e – t o t h e m o n i t o r th a t w e t o o k w i th u s a n d t h e Pr e s i d e n t
s t a r ts w a tc h i n g th e b u l le t in g a n d l ik e I s a i d h e w a tc h e d c o n t in u o u s ly f o r
a b o u t 1 5 m i n u t e s w h e r e M r A ja y G u p t a f o r w a r d e d i t t o th e n e x t b u ll e ti n .

20

H e s a id n o I w a n t to w a tc h t h e w h o l e t h in g a n d t h e n w e h a d D u d u z a n e
c o m i n g i n a n d m a k in g th is c o m m e n t w h i c h m a d e e v e r y b o d y l a u g h a n d
t h e n – y o u k n o w – t h e r e w e r e v is u a ls o f M a le m a w h ic h A j a y G u p t a
pointed out was done on purpose which he did not think about but he
w a s j u s t tr y i n g t o fo o l t h e Pr e s id e n t to t h i n k i n g th a t a l l t h e i n p u t s t h a t
h e h a d g iv e n t h e m t h e l a s t m e e ti n g w e r e b e in g f o l lo w e d a lr e a d y.

Page 156 of 225

So

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
that is …
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d w a s t h a t s ti ll t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g ?

Wa s t h a t s t il l

t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

J a th a t w a s – t h a t w a s t h e t h ir d m e e t in g

yes.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n

2 8 . 1 5 y o u s i m p ly r e l a ti n g t o h o w th e s e v i s u a ls w e r e o b t a i n e d . T h a t is
10

w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O k a y.

Then what was the

P r e s i d e n t ’s r e s p o n s e a ft e r h e h a d w a tc h e d th e b u ll e ti n – i f a n y ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll h e s e e m e d t o b e h a p p y.

H e th o u g h t

t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g i n t h e r ig h t d ir e c ti o n l ik e – y o u k n o w – ( in d is ti n c t)
h e h a d to l d m e m o r e a n d I h a d e x p r e s s e d m y r e s o l u ti o n s a b o u t t h e f a c t
t h a t y o u k n o w t h is m a y n o t b e b e s t b u l le t in s f o r u s t o s h o w. L e t u s w a i t
f o r s o m e m o r e ti m e a n d - y o u k n o w – t h e b u ll e ti n s e v o l v e .

Th a t is

w h e n w e s h o u ld s h o w i t t o h i m b u t I t h i n k t h e p l a n s e e m e d t o w o r k
20

b e c a u s e t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s h a p p y w i th t h is a n d t h a t w a s th e i n p u t I
r e m e m b e r h i m g i v i n g u s - y o u k n o w. S a y i n g t h a t h e is h a p p y w i t h w h a t
h e s a w a n d th is i s t h e r i g h t tr a je c t o r y t h a t – t h a t w e a r e g o i n g in .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Yo u

paragraph 28.15. Could you just read that out?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Ja. 28.15:

Page 157 of 225

have

a

q u o ta t io n

in

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
“ T h e t e a m u s e d t h e s e v is u a ls b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e
n o v is u a ls a v a il a b l e i n t h e a r c h i v e s b o u g h t fr o m t h e
SABC.

H e h a d j u s t m a d e t h a t u p to p le a s e th e

P r e s i d e n t a n d fr o m t h e lo o k o f i t - it s e e m e d h e w a s
h a p p y.

Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a w a t c h e d a l l t h e b u ll e ti n s .

Yo u h a v e a g o o d t h i n g o n y o u r h a n d s . T h i s is m u c h
b e t t e r t h a n t h e b u l le t in s o n S A B C .

Tho se ae

h o r r i b l e . I l ik e t h e w a y y o u h a v e u s e th e g r a p h i c s .
I t r e m i n d s m e o f th e i n te r n a ti o n a l c h a n n e l s . I f th is
is w h a t y o u w il l l o o k lik e o n l a u n c h d a y y o u w i ll b e

10

a hit President Zuma said with a smile.”
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h M r S u n d a r a m f r o m t h e f o u r t h

li n e y o u q u o t e – y o u p u t w h a t y o u s a y Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a s a i d in q u o t e s .
H o w i s i t p o s s i b l e th a t a f t e r a m o n t h a ft e r t w o m o n t h s y o u c o u l d
remember the exact words?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I w o u l d n o t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON : Without having re corded …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
words.
20

I would not claim that these are the exact

Yo u k n o w – I r e m e m b e r t h e g i s t o f w h a t h e s a i d a n d th e

e m p h a s is t h a t h e h a d o n t h e f a c t t h a t y o u g o t t h i n g o n y o u r h a n d s h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th a t I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d b u t t h is is p u t i n q u o t e s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e fr o m w h e r e i t s a y s :
“ Yo u h a v e a g o o d t h i n g o n y o u r h a n d s t h i s is m u c h
b e t t e r th e n t h e b u ll e ti n s o n S A B C . ”

Page 158 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e s e – t h e s e a r e t h i n g s t h a t h e s a id b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : As it is e x a c t w o r d s b e c a u s e i t i s o n e t h in g i f h e m a d e
t h e f o l lo w i n g p o in t – y o u k n o w.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON :

Th a t is o n e t h i n g a n d p u t i t in y o u r o w n w o r d s a n d

m a y b e y o u r o w n w o r d s is a mi x o f h i s w o r d s a n d y o u r w o r d s b u t y o u a r e
n o t p u t t in g th e m i n – i n q u o t e s a s i f i t i s w o r d f o r w o r d w h a t h e s a id .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J a , I a g r e e w i t h y o u it m a y n o t b e w o r d fo r
w o r d w h a t h e s a id b u t t h e n t h o s e a r e p o i n t s t h a t a r e t h e r e …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Is w h a t …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : H a s b e e n c o n v e y e d in t h is . Yo u k n o w lik e I
r e m e m b e r h e s a id t h a t y o u h a v e g o t th e m i n y o u r h a n d s .

I t is m u c h

b e t t e r th a n t h e S A B C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h o s e a r e t h i n g s th a t h e h a d s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Yo u m u s t j u s t h a v e a l o o k a t th a t . M a y b e
o v e r n i g h t if t h e r e a r e a n y …
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : H u h - u h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a te m e n ts w h ic h y o u h a v e p u t o n q u o t e s …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t w h ic h y o u d i d n o t i n te n d t o s a y t h a t i s w o r d f o r

w o r d w h a t h e s a id …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Sure.

Page 159 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h e t h e r i t is h i m o r a n y b o d y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Sure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It n e e d s t o b e c le a r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e y o u a r e q u o ti n g y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t is w h a t th e
p e r s o n s a id w o r d f o r w o r d a n d I d o r e m e m b e r.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON :

When you do not remember word for word but you

r e m e m b e r t h e p o i n t s y o u p u t t h a t in y o u r o w n w o r d s .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A lr i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON : So – so do have a look overnight so that you do not
n e c e s s a r i ly g iv e th e i m p r e s s i o n th a t y o u r e m e m b e r w o r d fo r w o r d w h a t
h e o r a n y b o d y e ls e s a i d …
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h a t is n o t th e c a s e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S u r e I w il l d o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Thank

you.

Thank

you

M r C h a ir m a n . T h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 . 1 6 .
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A lr ig h t . S o t h i s i s a r o u n d t h e ti m e th a t t h e
S A B C h a d l a u n c h e d t h e ir s ta t io n a n d I th i n k a d a y o r t w o a ft e r th a t . S o
w h e n t h e y l a u n c h e d th e ir s t a ti o n a ls o y o u k n o w i t w a s n o t th e b e s t f o o t
f o r w a r d in t h a t s e n s e y o u k n o w. T h e y h a d a fe w g l i tc h e s . S o i n t h a t
c o n te x t i s w h y h e s a id th is . S o I a m j u s t g iv i n g a li t tl e o f c o n t e x t t o t h e
s t a te m e n t th a t h e d i d .

Page 160 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
“The SABC had l aunched its 24/7 news channel a
few days ago on 1 August 2013.

This was the

e n d o r s e m e n t th e G u p ta b r o t h e r s w e r e l o o k i n g f o r.
T h e y s o f te n P r e s i d e n t Z u m a b e fo r e t h i s m e e t in g o n
c o m m e r c ia ls a n d t h e y c o u ld h a r d ly ( i n d is t in c t ) . S o
y o u s e e t h e f in a l p r o d u c t w o u ld b e m u c h b e tt e r th a n
t h is P r e s id e n t Z u m a a s k e d lo o k i n g a t m e .

Ye s .

It

w i ll s u r e ly b e b e t t e r a s w e w i ll h a v e c o m p l e te d th e
in t e g r a t io n t h e n a n d w e w il l h a v e m u c h – b e t t e r –
m o r e e q u i p m e n t a t o u r d is p o s a l a n d t h e b u l le t in s

10

w i ll b e s l e e k e r.”
S o I l ik e I s a i d b e fo r e y o u k n o w t h e s e b u l le t in s w e r e n o t p r o d u c e d i n
t h e P C R a s fa r a s I r e m e m b e r. T h e y w e r e m a d e o n a ti m e l in e . S o a n d
half the equipment in the studio had not even come. They came on the
la s t d a y – t h e s tu d i o c a m e r a s , t h e r o b o t ic c a m e r a s , t h e ji b . A ll o f t h a t
c a m e m u c h , m u c h l a te r th a n t h is .

They almost came two days, three

d a y s , f o u r d a y s b e f o r e th e la u n c h .

S o – s o t h i s I s a i d in a ll h o n e s t y

t h a t – y o u k n o w - t h i s is a p r o d u c t w h ic h I w a s n o t v e r y p r o u d o f a n d I
w a s s u r p r is e d t h a t h e w o u ld li k e a p r o d u c t li k e t h is a n d a c tu a lly s a y it
20

is b e tt e r th a n – y o u k n o w – t h e S A B C b u ll e ti n – c h a n n e l th a t w a s
la u n c h e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y a n d t h e n th e c a u ti o n t h a t
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a s j u s t m a d e y o u w i ll d o th e s a m e t h o s e q u o t a ti o n s
a s w e ll .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d th e n – t h e n w h o w a s

s a y in g t h a t h e w a s n o t v e r y h a p p y w it h t h e b u l l e t i n s . Is t h a t y o u r s e l f
s t il l?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

C o n t i n u in g

in

the

next

paragraph?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

k n o w.

Ye s .

S o I m e a n – s o I t o ld h i m t h a t y o u

W e a r e n o t v e r y h a p p y w i t h th is – y o u k n o w.

These are just

p r a c ti c e r u n s . S o h e s a i d w e ll I a m h a p p y w i t h e v e n t h e s e . Yo u g u y s
keep it up.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

So then he was asked to come and

in a u g u r a te t h e c h a n n e l o n t h e 2 1 s t .

I k n o w y o u w il l d e c li n e b u t – s o

t h is is w h a t o n e o f t h e G u p ta b r o th e r s s a i d th a t y o u k n o w – b u t y o u
m u s t b e – y o u m u s t in a u g u r a te t h e c h a n n e l . Yo u w il l h a v e – l e t u s d o
a n e x c l u s iv e i n te r v i e w w i t h y o u a t th e v e n u e .

A t u l s a id w i t h a b r o a d

s mi le a n d f o ld e d h a n d s . T h a t w i ll n o t – s o t h is is w h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t
20

s a i d t h a t t h a t w il l n o t s e n d th e r i g h t m e s s a g e . I t w i ll n o t d o y o u – y o u r
c r e d i b ili t y a n y g o o d . I a m – I a m a p a r t o f t h e p r o je c t. I a m a l w a y s – I
a m a l w a y s r e a d y t o g iv e y o u a n i n t e r v i e w a f t e r a fe w w e e k s Z u m a
r e p l ie d fo r m a l ly.

S o t h i s is s o m e t h i n g w h ic h th e r e i n th a t m e e t i n g .

T h e y r e q u e s te d f o r a n in t e r v ie w w i t h h i m a n d fo r h i m t o c o m e a n d c u t
t h e r ib b o n o n t h e d a y o f t h e l a u n c h .

Page 162 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h i c h h e fl a tl y r e fu s e d .

He

s a i d t h a t i f – i f t h a t w a s t o b e d o n e t h e n e v e r y b o d y w o u l d k n o w fr o m
d a y o n e t h a t – y o u k n o w – t h i s is a s t a t i o n w h ic h – w h i c h I a m l e a k e d t o
( in d is ti n c t) o r I c a m e a n d in a u g u r a t e d . T h e y a r e g o i n g t o h a v e a s o f t –
( c o u g h in g ) . S o h e d i d n o t w a n t t h a t i m a g e t o g o o u t b u t h e d id c o m e a
d a y b e fo r e t h e la u n c h .
CHAIRPERSON :

B e f o r e th a t M r S u n d a r a m s o m e m o n t h s w h e n y o u

w r o t e t h e b o o k d i d y o u r e m e m b e r th a t A t u l – M r A t u l G u p t a – s a i d th is
10

w i t h a b r o a d s m i le a n d h i s h a n d s f o l d e d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I d o r e m e m b e r d is t in c t ly y o u k n o w b e c a u s e
t h e r e w a s a l o t o f d r a m a t h a t w a s i n v o l v e d in – i n t h e w a y t h e G u p t a
b r o t h e r s a t t e n d e d t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t .

S o f o r in s t a n c e t h e y k n o w t h a t –

y o u k n o w – t h e y w e r e a s k i n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t to c o m e a n d in a u g u r a te t h e
s t a ti o n t h a t w a s b e e n s e t u p a n d t h e y a r e a s k i n g h i m f o r a n i n te r v i e w
b u t t h e y w o u l d d o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , I u n d e r s t a n d th a t.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Oh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s i s m o n t h s la t e r a n d y o u t o l d m e t h a t y o u d i d n o t
20

record anything.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: I did not record but I have …
CHAIRPERSON :

S o I a m – I a m ju s t s u r p r i s e d th a t y o u c o u l d e v e n

r e m e m b e r th a t w h e n M r A tu l G u p t a s a i d t h is h e s a id i t w i t h a b r o a d
s mi le a n d w i t h h a n d s fo ld e d .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: No but I must submit that – you know - I do

Page 163 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e m e m b e r a ll o f t h is b e c a u s e j u s t t o b e c l e a r b e c a u s e I s t a r te d w r i ti n g
t h e b o o k w i th i n d a y s o f c o m i n g b a c k fr o m S o u t h A f r i c a w h ic h is
s o m e t h i n g t h a t I r e p o r t e d t o th e m e d i a h e r e s i n c e i t g o t p u b li s h e d .
A ls o I r e m e m b e r t h e s e m e e t in g s v e r y, v e r y d is ti n c tl y v e r y, v e r y c le a r ly
in m y m i n d w h e n I w a s w r i t in g t h e b o o k . I d o r e m e m b e r t h a t w h e n h e
w a s a s k in g f o r t h a t i n te r v i e w h e – h e w a s d o in g t h a t w i th t h e
m a n n e r is m t h a t – th a t I h a v e d e s c r i b e d h e r e t h a t y o u k n o w – v e r y
s in c e r e ly w e a s k y o u t o c o m e a n d p l e a s e i n a u g u r a t e t h e s ta t io n a n d a ll
o f th a t .
10

S o I d i d – I d o r e m e m b e r th e b o d y la n g u a g e d u r i n g t h a t

m e e ti n g e s p e c i a ll y – y o u k n o w – w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e s e c r i t ic a l p o i n ts
d u r i n g t h a t m e e ti n g – y o u k n o w – w h e r e th e y a s k t h e P r e s id e n t t o c o m e
a n d i n a u g u r a t e th e s t a t i o n a n d a ls o g iv e a n e x c l u s iv e i n t e r v i e w t o
( in d is ti n c t) a n d h e d i d th a t w i t h h i s h a n d s fo l d e d a n d y o u k n o w a l m o s t
in - i n a w a y t h a t w a s p l e a d in g h i m t o c o m e .

A l th o u g h h e k n e w t h a t

t h a t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t a n y p o li t ic ia n w i ll j u m p w h e n g e t a n o p p o r t u n i ty
b u t P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s s m a r t e n o u g h to s a y t h a t n o i f I c o m e t h e r e
a n d d o th a t i t w il l b e s e e n a s s o m e t h i n g w h ic h i s p r o Zu m a o r y o u k n o w
a c h a n n e l th a t is li n k e d t o m e a n d I w o u l d n o t w a n t to d o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i n t h e t w o s e n te n c e s – t w o s e n t e n c e s l a t e r a f t e r
20

y o u s a i d M r A t u l G u p t a y o u q u o te d w h a t M r A t u l G u p ta s a i d w i t h a
b r o a d s m i le a n d h i s h a n d s f o l d e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : H u h - u h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o s e n t e n c e s o r t h r e e s e n te n c e s l a te r y o u s a y – n o ,
n o th e f o ll o w i n g th r e e s e n t e n c e s c o n ta in a q u o t a ti o n th a t y o u s a y w a s
M r Zu m a ’s r e p l y a n d i t s a y s :

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
“ T h a t w il l n o t s e n d t h e r i g h t m e s s a g e . I t w i ll n o t d o
y o u r c r e d i b i li ty a n y g o o d .

I am part of the project

a n d I a m a l w a y s r e a d y t o g iv e a n i n te r v i e w a ft e r a
f e w w e e k s .”
Z u m a r e p li e d f ir m ly. Yo u r e m e m b e r e d a l l t h a t , fir m l y w i th b r o a d s m i le ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s I d id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h c lo s e d h a n d s a f t e r m o n th s ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Yo u s e e b e c a u s e I n o te d th e s e – t h e s e k i n d
10

o f – y o u k n o w – t h e k in d o f b o d y la n g u a g e v e r y c l o s e l y b e c a u s e th is is
s o m e t h i n g w h i c h – y o u k n o w – w a s p a r t o f t h e d r a m a th a t w a s t h e r e –
y o u k n o w – w i th t h e G u p t a b r o th e r s b e c a u s e I d i d n o t s e e th e m u s e t h is
k in d o f b o d y l a n g u a g e e ls e w h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e r e w a s a l o t o f a r r o g a n c e . Th e r e w a s a
lo t o f – y o u k n o w – t h e a t ti t u d e t h a t th e y w e r e s o m e k i n d o f f e u d a l
lo r d s w h e n i t c a m e t o t h e o t h e r e m p lo y e e s b u t w h e n i t c a m e to t h e
P r e s i d e n t a l s o w h e n i t c a m e t o – t o t h e s e k in d o f is s u e s t h e y w o u ld b e
a l l – y o u k n o w – fo ld e d a r m s , f o ld e d h a n d s a n d s m il e a n d t h i n g s l ik e

20

t h a t w h i c h w a s – y o u k n o w – w h i c h I t h o u g h t w a s r e s e r v e d fo r th e
President.

It was reserved for him.

We could not see that anywhere

e ls e . I t w a s a v e r y b r a s h , a r r o g a n t r u d e f a c e t h a t w e s a w in t h e o ffi c e .
S o I r e m e m b e r t h is b e c a u s e th is i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I o b s e r v e d a t t h a t
ti m e a n d m a d e a m e n t a l n o te o f a n d w h ic h s t a y s w i t h m e – y o u k n o w –
w h e n I w r o t e th e b o o k a n d e v e n n o w w h e n I r e a d fr o m o n e o f th is I g e t

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
a v e r y v iv i d i m a g e o f t h a t m e e ti n g th a t t o o k p l a c e . A s f a r a s th e c o u r t
fr o m P r e s i d e n t Z u m a is c o n c e r n e d ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
quotations.

Hang on one second.

W e s p o k e e a r li e r o n a b o u t

Yo u h a v e g o t a q u o t a ti o n h e r e o f w h a t Mr A b d u l G u p t a

s a i d . Yo u s a y – a c t u a l ly p a r a g r a p h 2 8 . 1 7 . I t s a y s :
“ I a m n o t v e r y h a p p y w i th t h e s e b u ll e ti n s . T h e y a r e
ju s t p r a c ti c e r u n s .” I r e p li e d .
S o I g u e s s t h a t is y o u ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Then:
“ I' m h a p p y w i t h e v e n t h i s , y o u g u y s k e e p t h is u p .”

President

Zuma was beaming.
D o y o u r e m e m b e r a ll t h a t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s I d i d a t t h a t t i m e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n n e x t s e n te n c e :
“ Sir y o u m u s t c o m e a n d p r e s s t h e b u tt o n t o in t e g r a t e t h e
c h a n n e l o n t h e 2 1 s t . I k n o w y o u h a v e d e c li n e d b e f o r e b u t y o u
m u s t in t e g r a t e th e c h a n n e l .

W e w il l h a v e o u r e d i to r s d o a n

e x c lu s i v e in t e r v ie w w i t h y o u a t t h e v e n u e .”
20

A t u l s a id w i t h a b r o a d s mi l e a n d h is h a n d s f o l d e d , a n d th e n o f c o u r s e :
“ T h a t w i ll n o t s e n d th e r i g h t m e s s a g e , i t w il l n o t d o y o u r
c r e d i b ili t y a n y g o o d , I a m p a r t o f th e p r o j e c t a n d I a m a l w a y s
r e a d y t o g iv e a n in t e r v ie w a ft e r a f e w w e e k s .”
Z u m a r e p li e d f ir m ly.

A ll t h e s e q u o t a t i o n s a n d t h e o t h e r s , y o u s a id

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h e q u o t a ti o n s I a d m it , t h e q u o t a ti o n s I

a d m i t i s y o u k n o w f r o m m y r e c o l le c ti o n , I p u t t h o s e c o ll e c t io n s , to th e
b e s t o f m y k n o w le d g e th a t is i t , b u t a s f a r a s t h e m a n n e r is m s a r e
c o n c e r n e d , th e b r o a d s mi l e a n d th e . . . I r e m e m b e r t h o s e t h in g s a n d I
p u t it t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n r e g a r d to t h e o n e t h a t w e s t a r t e d t a lk i n g a b o u t
I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t y o u w e r e c o n c e d i n g th a t w a s w i t h i n q u o t a ti o n s
w a s n ’ t w h a t w a s s a i d w o r d b y w o r d o r w o r d fo r w o r d , b u t i t w a s – y o u
s o u g h t to a r ti c u l a te t h e p o i n t t h a t w a s m a d e , d id I u n d e r s t a n d y o u
10

c o r r e c t ly ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o t h a t o n e .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o t h e r o n e s t h a t y o u – t h e o n e f o r M r A t u l G u p ta
h e r e a n d t h e o n e f o r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a , fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a , th a t w e
h a v e j u s t t a lk e d a b o u t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 8 . 1 7 a r e th o s e q u o t a ti o n s p r o p e r
o r e v e n w i th th o s e – y o u s o u g h t t o m a k e p o i n t s a n d n o t to s a y t h is i s
w h a t th e y w o r d f o r w o r d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
20

I w o u ld s a y t h is is n o t w h a t th e y s a id w o r d

f o r w o r d , b u t I d o r e m e m b e r t h e p o i n ts th a t t h e y m a d e o n th is a n d t h is
c o n v e y s w h a t a c t u a ll y h a d h a p p e n e d , b u t I d o a g r e e th a t th is is o n ly to
t h e b e s t o f my r e c o l le c t i o n w i th i n a f e w d a y s o f my c o m i n g b a c k fr o m
S o u th A fr ic a , w h a t I r e c o l le c te d a t t h a t ti m e I ’v e p u t i t i n th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON :

M m m , b u t w h y w o u l d y o u w a n t t o p u t i n q u o ta t io n s

w h e n y o u a r e a t tr i b u te a s ta t e m e n t t o s o m e b o d y i f y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
it a s w o r d fo r w o r d , I m e a n y o u a r e a n e x p e r i e n c e d j o u r n a li s t , y o u a r e
a n e d it o r, y o u k n o w e x a c tly w h a t i t m e a n s w h e n y o u p u t a s t a te m e n t in
q u o t a t i o n s , i n q u o t a ti o n m a r k s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s I a g r e e y o u k n o w, I a g r e e w it h y o u

t h e r e , a n d I w o u l d a l s o s a y t h a t y o u k n o w I d id th is b e c a u s e I w a n t e d
t o , w h e n I w a s w r i t in g a b o o k i t w a s n o t li k e w r i ti n g a n e w s r e p o r t, s o I
w a n t e d t o p u t i t i n a n n a r r a t iv e s ty le t h a t I w a n t e d t o p u t i n th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b u t y o u c a n ’ t p u t in a n a r r a ti v e fo r m b y a tt r i b u t in g
t o s o m e b o d y w o r d s t h a t t h a t p e r s o n d i d n o t u t t e r, c a n y o u ?
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :

I a g r e e w it h t h a t , I a g r e e .

S o w h y d i d y o u d o i t?

B e c a u s e y o u c o u l d m a k e th e

s a m e p o i n ts w i t h o u t r e p r e s e n ti n g th a t th o s e a r e t h e w o r d s t h a t w e r e
s a i d b y th a t p e r s o n .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

S o w h a t I ’v e d o n e is y o u k n o w to t h e b e s t

o f m y r e c o l le c t i o n w h a t I c o u ld r e m e m b e r I p u t i t t h e r e b u t I th in k i n
h i n d s i g h t I s h o u l d n o t h a v e p u t i t i n q u o t a t io n s , I s h o u l d h a v e lo o k e d a t
it o th e r w i s e .
CHAIRPERSON :

N o b u t i t c o n c e r n s m e b e c a u s e y o u a r e a j o u r n a li s t ,

jo u r n a li s ts w r i t e a l l t h e ti m e , t h a t ’s t h e ir j o b a n d th e y k n o w t h e p u r p o s e
20

o f q u o t in g .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r a ti o n a l e f o r i t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y k n o w t h a t w h e n y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r th a t t h is
is w h a t t h e p e r s o n s a i d w o r d f o r w o r d y o u d o n ’ t p u t i t in q u o t e s . Yo u

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
m a k e t h e p o in t , y o u s a y t h i s is w h a t th e p e r s o n s a id o r y o u s a y o r
w o r d s t o t h is e ff e c t b u t y o u d o n ’t q u o t e t h e m , y o u q u o t e t h e m w h e n y o u
a r e s u r e t h a t ’s w h a t th e y s a id . A m I n o t r i g h t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u ’r e a b s o l u t e ly r i g h t , a b s o lu t e l y.

B u t w h y w o u l d a n e x p e r i e n c e d j o u r n a lis t lik e y o u

a tt r i b u t e to p e o p le w o r d s i n q u o te s t h a t h e k n o w s h e c a n ’ t s a y t h a t ’s
w h a t th e y s a id w o r d f o r w o r d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I agree with you, that you know I should

n o t h a v e d o n e t h a t , b u t w h il e I w a s w r i t i n g t h e b o o k t h is w a s t o th e
10

b e s t o f my k n o w l e d g e y o u k n o w b e c a u s e I v iv id ly r e m e m b e r e a c h o f t h e
c o n v e r s a ti o n s th a t I h a d w it h . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I k n o w b u t t h i s . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h i s is n o t t h e r i g h t w a y.

Mr S u n d a r a m y o u d o n ’ t q u o te w h e n y o u s a y t o t h e

best of my knowledge.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :

I agree.

W h e n y o u r e c o ll e c t io n is t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r

k n o w l e d g e y o u tr y a n d w r i t e b y p u t ti n g i t i n a n i n d ir e c t s p e e c h y o u
k n o w.
20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i f y o u d o q u o te a n d y o u a r e – y o u w a n t t h e r e a d e r
t o k n o w t h a t y o u a r e n o t c e r ta in t h e n y o u d o s a y t h a t y o u a r e n o t
c e r t a i n b u t t h a t ’s a s y o u r r e c o ll e c t io n t h a t th e p e r s o n s a i d t h a t , b u t
n o r m a l ly y o u o n l y p u t a s t a te m e n t i n q u o te s a n d a t tr i b u te i t t o
s o m e b o d y i f y o u a r e s u r e t h a t t h a t’s w h a t t h e p e r s o n s a i d w o r d f o r

Page 169 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w o r d , e v e r y t h i n g th a t i s w i th i n t h e q u o te s is w h a t th e p e r s o n s a id , is n ’ t
it ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I agree with you, so here I mean the

q u o t a t i o n s th a t I’v e g i v e n m a y n o t b e w o r d f o r w o r d , I d o a d mi t t h a t , b u t
it w a s y o u k n o w t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s w e r e t h e r e in m y h e a d w h ic h I t o o k
o u t a n d p u t in q u o te s , i n h i n d s i g h t I t h i n k I s h o u l d n o t h a v e p u t t h e m i n
q u o t e s , b u t u s e d a n o t h e r w a y o f p u t ti n g ( i n d is ti n c t ) b u t l ik e I s a i d t h e s e
a r e t h e p o in t s t h a t I r e m e m b e r v e r y c l e a r l y w e r e b e i n g s a i d a n d m a y b e
I w o u ld s a y th a t I s h o u ld n o t h a v e p u t t h e m i n q u o te s , I a g r e e w i th y o u
10

there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e a r e q u it e a n u m b e r o f q u o t e s is n ’ t i t, t h a t
a r e m a d e i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

A n d p a r t o f t h e d i ffi c u l ty w i th q u o t e s is – a t l e a s t

t h a t ’s m y e x p e r i e n c e , is t h a t t h e y c o n v e y t o t h e r e a d e r t h a t y o u a r e
v e r y c l e a r a b o u t w h a t th a t p e r s o n s a i d a n d t h e r e a d e r m ig h t t h in k t h a t
y o u k e p t a r e c o r d s o m e w h e r e , i f y o u w e r e t o b e c h a l le n g e d w i t h a –
w h e r e d i d y o u g e t t h i s fr o m , y o u p r o d u c e d s o m e t h i n g in w r it i n g o r a
r e c o r d i n g , a n d t h e r e a r e o f c o u r s e s ta t e m e n ts t h a t j u s t s t a y i n y o u r
20

m i n d , b u t th e r e s e e m s to b e s o m a n y th a t w o u l d h a v e s t a y e d i n y o u r
m i n d in t h i s s ta t e m e n t w h e n y o u d id n ’t r e c o r d a n y t h i n g i m m e d ia t e l y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o t h e s e t h in g s , y o u k n o w th e s e t h i n g s

w e r e v e r y a l ie n t o m e t h a t I w o r k e d b e f o r e s o t h e s e th i n g s s t a y e d in m y
mind and when I came back and I took myself out, I was not on any
a s s ig n m e n t , I w e n t fr o m t h e ( in d i s ti n c t) a n d th a t’s w h e n I w r o te th e

Page 170 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
b o o k i n a b s o lu t e s o l i tu d e i n th e H i m a l a y a s , i n P e c h o r a , p l a c e s l ik e th a t ,
k e p t m y y o u k n o w s h u t m y m in d o u t f o r e v e r y t h i n g e l s e th a t w a s t h e r e ,
le f t m y f a m ily a n d w r o t e t h i s b o o k . E a c h a n d e v e r y t h in g t h a t is w r i t te n
h e r e is to t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w le d g e w h a t I r e m e m b e r e d .
A ls o t h e k in d o f b o d y l a n g u a g e th a t I a m r e f e r r in g t o h e r e i s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t I r e m e m b e r v e r y, v e r y d is t i n c tl y, b e c a u s e t h a t w a s v e r y
d i ff e r e n t fr o m th e – th a t t h e y d e a l t w i t h o t h e r p e o p le .

A ls o w h e n it

c a m e to P r e s i d e n t Zu m a I h a d ju s t t h e s e f o u r m e e ti n g s a n d e v e r y t h i n g
t h a t h e s a i d t h e r e h a s s ta y e d o n w i th m e y o u k n o w b e c a u s e i t’s n o t
10

e v e r y d a y t h a t y o u m e e t a H e a d o f S t a t e , a n d y o u h a v e t h is t h in g .

I

w a s a b s o lu t e l y fo c u s e d o n e a c h a n d e v e r y w o r d t h a t w a s b e i n g s a i d in
t h a t m e e ti n g , b u t lik e I s a id b e fo r e y o u k n o w I th in k i n h i n d s i g h t I
s h o u l d n o t h a v e q u o t e d t h e m b e c a u s e w h i l e th e s e a r e t o t h e b e s t o f m y
k n o w l e d g e t h is is w h a t t h e y h a d s a id , b u t i t m a y n o t b e w o r d f o r w o r d
w h a t t h e y s a i d , b u t t h e g is t o f i t i s c o n t a i n e d i n th is . O f c o u r s e lik e y o u
s a i d I w o r k e d t h e w h o le n ig h t to m a k e th e s e r e fe r e n c e s in m y s ta t e m e n t
a t n ig h t a n d d o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , b u t a l s o t h is is n o t a c a s e w h e r e y o u h a d o n e
m e e ti n g , y o u h a d fo u r ?
20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

A n d y o u d o n ’t th i n k y o u m a y b e m ix i n g u p w h a t

h a p p e n e d i n th e fi r s t m e e ti n g w i th w h a t h a p p e n e d in t h e s e c o n d
m e e ti n g a n d t h i r d m e e ti n g a n d f o u r th m e e t in g , y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n o f w h a t
h a p p e n e d i n e a c h m e e t in g is q u i t e c l e a r, e v e n t h o u g h y o u m a y
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )

Page 171 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s a b s o lu t e ly, b e c a u s e y o u k n o w i n a

t e l e v i s i o n s t a ti o n t h e r e is a s e q u e n ti a l o r d e r i n w h i c h t h i n g s t a k e p la c e ,
y o u k n o w f o r i n s t a n c e t h e fi r s t m e e ti n g w a s a b o u t t h e l o g o , t h e s e c o n d
m e e ti n g w a s a b o u t t h e a n i m a ti o n o f t h a t lo g o , t h a t c o m e s i n a
s e q u e n ti a l o r d e r, t h e b u ll e ti n s c o m e l a t e r, s o I a m a b s o l u t e ly c l e a r t h a t
t h is i s w h a t h a p p e n e d in e a c h o f t h e m e e t in g s a n d b e c a u s e I ’v e s e t u p
s t a ti o n s b e f o r e t h i s , I ’v e s e t u p s t a ti o n s a ft e r t h is a s w e l l , a n d t h i s i s
t h e s e q u e n t ia l o r d e r i n w h i c h t h in g s c o m e in , a n d I r e m e m b e r t h e m v e r y
d is t in c tly b e c a u s e th is is t h e w o r k th a t I d o r e a l ly a n d t h e r e ’s
10

a b s o l u t e ly n o m e e ti n g u p a s f a r a s th e m e e ti n g s a r e c o n c e r n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y n o t h a t ’s f in e . T h a n k y o u . Ms N o r m a n ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, c a n w e t a k e a f iv e m i n u te s a d j o u r n m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir, t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l j u s t ta k e a fiv e m in u te a d j o u r n m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : F iv e m in u te s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n ,

t h a n k y o u . Yo u h a d a ll u d e d t o t h e f a c t t h a t a ft e r th is m e e t i n g , w h i c h i s
t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g , o n e o f t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s t o l d y o u t h a t t h e y h a d
s u c c e e d e d i n b r i n g i n g i n b u s in e s s a n d y o u m e n t io n e d a fi g u r e in
p a r a g r a p h 2 8 .1 8 , d i d t h e y m e n ti o n w h o a r e th e y g o in g t o b e d o in g t h i s

Page 172 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
o r g e t ti n g t h is b u s i n e s s fr o m , i n a n y . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
CHAIRPERSON : What page are you on?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I ’ m o n p a g e 2 9 M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P a r a g r a p h 2 8 . 1 8 . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O h s o r r y, i t ’s p a g e 2 9 o n t o p ,

2 9 o n t o p a n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 .1 8 . O h t h a n k y o u .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

S o t h is w a s A j a y G u p ta , I m e t h i m i n t h e

s t u d i o t h e n e x t d a y o r a f e w d a y s l a te r a n d t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n w a s
a r o u n d t h e m e e ti n g t h a t w e h a d a n d w e s a i d , t h a t’s w h e n h e g a v e m e
t h is f ig u r e t h a t w e h a d d o n e , t h a t m e e t in g w a s v e r y p r o d u c t iv e a n d a t
t h e e n d o f th e d a y th e y g o t th a t a m o u n t o f m o n e y f r o m t h e b u s in e s s
that came.

H e d i d n ’ t t e ll m e w h e r e t h o s e – y o u k n o w w h a t w a s t h e

s o u r c e o f th a t m o n e y, I w o u ld t h i n k i n li g h t o f th e c o n v e r s a t i o n s t h a t w e
h a d l ik e e v e n s o m e o f i t c o u ld h a v e c o m e f r o m t h e I E C a s w e ll .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : H o w m u c h is i t , c o u l d y o u ju s t
m e n ti o n t h e f i g u r e fo r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I ju s t n e e d t o r e fe r t h is a n d t h e n I w il l ju s t
20

t e ll y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Could you please tell me about the page

n u m b e r t h a t y o u r e fe r r e d to b e f o r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O k a y, o h s o r r y, s o r r y, l e t m e

ju s t s e e t h a t y o u ’ v e g o t th e c o r r e c t b u n d le fir s t .

Page 173 of 225

EXHIBIT CC1, just

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c h e c k , C C 1 A a n d B , is t h a t t h e o n e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s , y e s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A lr ig h t o k a y i f y o u g o u n d e r

t h e r e w o u ld b e a fl a g i n b e tw e e n w h i c h is w r i t t e n C C 1 B .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : C C 1 B , o k a y if y o u t u r n o v e r y o u
w i ll s e e – l o o k a t p a g e 2 9 , t w o n i n e , o n t h e t o p o n y o u r r i g h t h a n d
c o r n e r.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 29 yes.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 2 9 y o u s e e t h a t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Thank you.

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

I w a s r e f e r r i n g to p a r a g r a p h

28.18.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

18?

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I was told the next day when this – I was

t o l d t h a t t h e y h a d s e c u r e d R 2 0 m il li o n w o r t h o f b u s i n e s s th e p r e v i o u s
e v e n i n g . B y t h e ti m e I h a d d e c i d e d t o r e s ig n a s e d i t o r a n d g o b a c k t o
I n d ia a f te r t h e l a u n c h .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

J a , s o . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

So you say you were not told

h o w t h e y w e r e g o i n g to a c q u i r e t h i s R 2 0 m il li o n a n d w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t
w a s g o i n g to f u n d o r t o d o b u s i n e s s w i t h th e m .
MR RAJESH SUN DARAM:

Ye s .

Page 174 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : To t h e t u n e o f R 2 0 m i ll io n .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , a n d t h e n y o u g iv e t h e

r e a s o n w h y y o u h a d t o r e s i g n , o r y o u fe l t t h a t y o u h a d r e s i g n , a n d w h a t
w e r e t h o s e r e a s o n s th a t y o u g i v e in t h a t p a r a g r a p h ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll y o u k n o w I’ v e s p o k e n a b o u t t h e

d u b io u s c o m m e r c i a l d e a li n g s t h a t I s a w w i t h m y o w n e y e s w h ic h I d id n ’ t
w a n t t o b e a p a r t o f , b u t th e r e w e r e a w h o l e lo t o f o t h e r r e a s o n s y o u
k n o w.
10

R i g h t fr o m t h e t i m e , r ig h t fr o m t h e – w h e r e t h a t th e la s t

( in d is ti n c t) n o t ju s t t h e v i s a la w s b u t a l s o l a b o u r la w s in t e r m s o f t h e
w a y t h e y w e r e tr e a ti n g t h e ir e m p lo y e e s , t h e w a y th e y h a d t o ta l
d is r e g a r d fo r a n y a c t io n t h a t c o u ld c o m e t h e ir w a y b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e
b r e a k i n g th e s e l a w s , y o u k n o w a l l o f t h e s e t h i n g s , y o u k n o w t h e to t a l ,
y o u k n o w t h e e d i t o r ’s p o s i ti o n w a s e n ti r e ly c o m p r o m i s e d , t h e e d i t o r j u s t
h a d t o t a k e a s p a r e a n d s i t i n a c h a ir a n d y o u k n o w e v e r y th in g e l s e w a s
d o n e b y t h i s g r o u p a n d t h e f a c t t h a t t h is w a s n o t a n e w s t a ti o n b u t w h a t
t h e y w a n te d t o s e t u p w a s a p r o p a g a n d a s t a t i o n . T h o s e w e r e a l l , s o m e
o f t h e r e a s o n s th a t m a d e y o u k n o w h a d m e m a d e u p m y m i n d v e r y
q u ic k ly, v e r y e a r l y i n t h e p r o je c t t h a t I d i d n o t w a n t t o b e a s s o c i a t e d

20

w i t h t h i s i n t h e lo n g t e r m b e c a u s e y o u k n o w w h a t e v e r r e p u ta t io n I h a d
g o t f o r m y s e l f w o r k in g y o u k n o w s i n c e 1 9 9 4 o n v a r i o u s p r o j e c ts a n d
m e d i a o r g a n is a ti o n s w o u l d j u s t , I w o u ld j u s t th r o w i t a w a y i f I c o n t i n u e d
a n y l o n g e r i n t h i s , b u t o f c o u r s e I w a s v e r y u n c o m f o r t a b l e w i th th e s e
k in d o f d e a li n g s t h a t I w a s a l s o p a r t o f a n d I w a s g o in g t o t h e s e
m e e ti n g s a n d I k n e w a t t h e e n d o f i t t h e y w e r e g e tt i n g t h e s e k i n d o f

Page 175 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c o m m e r c ia l b e n e fi ts fr o m i t , a n d t h i s i s n o t w h a t I w o u ld c a l l a
le g i t i m a te b u s in e s s d e a l t h a t w a s b e in g d o n e . I h a v e n o is s u e s w it h a
n e w s p a p e r o r a t e l e v is io n s t a ti o n m a k i n g p r o fi ts , b u t if t h e y a r e d o n e i n
a v io l a ti o n o f l a w s , i f t h e y a r e d o n e w h e r e t h e r e i s a c o n f li c t o f i n te r e s t
t h a t ’s a c o n d i ti o n w h e r e I d o n o t w a n t t o h a v e a n y p a r t o f t h a t .

I t’s

what I am saying ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o a t th is p o i n t t h a t is w h a t y o u
a r e d e a li n g w it h i n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 .1 8 y o u h a d n o t fo r m a l ly r e s i g n e d b u t
y o u h a d f o r m u l a te d a v i e w o r m a d e a d e c is i o n t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o
10

le a v e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s , y e s .

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

And then before you did that

t h e n y o u h a d t h e f o u r th m e e ti n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

J a , th e fo u r t h m e e ti n g w a s a d a y b e f o r e

t h e l a u n c h b e c a u s e y o u k n o w t h e r e w a s P r e s i d e n t Zu m a w a s u n d e r a
lo t o f p r e s s u r e f r o m t h e G u p t a ’s t o g i v e a n in t e r v i e w a n d c o m e
( in d is ti n c t) a n d a ll o f th a t w h i c h fo r m a l ly r e fu s e d , b u t I th in k w h a t h e
h a d a g r e e d t o is to c o m e a n d v is i t t h e s t a ti o n a n d t o s e e y o u k n o w t h e
s t u d i o s a n d th e P C R a n d a l l o f th a t , w h ic h h e d id a d a y b e f o r e t h e
20

la u n c h .
N o w t h is w a s k e p t v e r y s e c r e tiv e y o u k n o w b e c a u s e e v e n
w i t h i n t h e t e a m th e r e w e r e v e r y fe w p e o p le w h o k n e w a b o u t t h e v is it ,
f o r m o s t o f t h e e d i t o r ia l s t a ff i t c a m e a s u r p r i s e y o u k n o w b e c a u s e t h e y
w e r e g o i n g a b o u t th e i r d a ily e d i t o r ia l fu n c ti o n s a n d s u d d e n ly y o u h a v e
t h e Pr e s id e n t w a lk i n t o t h e m e e t i n g , a n d i t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
s u p p o s e d t o b e s o m e t h i n g w h i c h t h e y w a n te d to k e e p c o n fi d e n t ia l t o
t h e e x t e n t t h a t th e r e w a s a c a m e r a t h in g t h a t w a s r e c o r d i n g th e
P r e s i d e n t ’s a r r iv a l a n d d e p a r tu r e t h a t a t th e l a s t h e w a s t o l d t h a t y o u ’r e
n o t s u p p o s e d t o d o th a t . T h e H e a d o f P r o d u c t io n h a d a w h o l e c a m e r a
s e t u p , a c h a i n o f c a m e r a s s e t u p t o r e c o r d th e e n t ir e e v e n t , th e y w e r e
t o l d t h a t t h e y s h o u ld n o t d o t h a t .
A ls o t h e r e w a s in s t r u c t i o n s g iv e n to t h e s t a ff t h a t th e y s h o u l d
n o t b e t a k in g a n y p ic t u r e s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t y o u k n o w u s i n g t h e ir c e ll
p h o n e s e tc e te r a , s o t h e r e w a s a n a t te m p t a t g e t t in g a h i g h p r o f il e
10

p u b lic f i g u r e t o c o m e t o a n e w s r o o m t h a t w a s f u ll o f j o u r n a l is ts a n d
v e r y f o o li s h ly th e r e w a s a l s o a n a t te m p t t o k i n d o f t r y a n d h id e i t , a n d
t o k e e p i t c o n f id e n ti a l , w h ic h I f o u n d f u n n y a t t h a t ti m e y o u k n o w.
Yo u h a v e j o u r n a l is ts i n th e n e w s r o o m w h o w il l o f c o u r s e t e ll
t h e ir fr ie n d s a n d y o u k n o w in o t h e r n e w s s t a t i o n s t h a t t h e p r e s id e n t
c a m e , s o t h e r e w a s n o p o i n t n o t r e c o r d i n g t h o s e e v e n ts o r a ll o w i n g
p e o p l e to t a k e p ic t u r e s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h a t ti m e .
S o y e s t h e fo u r t h m e e ti n g w a s a d a y b e f o r e th e l a u n c h y o u
k n o w w h e n th e r e w e r e h e c t ic p r e p a r a t i o n s th a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g f o r th e
la u n c h , w h e n e v e r y t h in g I c o u l d s e e w a s f a l li n g a p a r t, y o u k n o w

20

b e c a u s e h a l f th e e q u i p m e n t h a d n ’ t c o m e , t h e y w e r e in th e p r o c e s s o f
c o m i n g , t h e t e c h n ic a l t e a m w a s c a ll i n g u p t h e v e n d o r s t o fi n d o u t w h e r e
in t h e w o r l d t h e y w e r e , th e y w e r e tr y i n g t o tr a c k th e c a m e r a s , a n d y o u
k n o w o n c e t h e e q u ip m e n t

c a m e in w e d id n ’ t k n o w w h a t b u g s w o u l d

c r o p u p w h e n w e ’ r e s t a r ti n g , o r t h e i n t e g r a t i o n w a s n ’ t d o n e f u l ly, s o
w h il e a l l o f t h i s w a s h a p p e n i n g t h e P r e s id e n t c a m e i n a n d h e w a s g iv e n

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a p ic tu r e o f s o m e t h in g w h ic h is a t t h e h i g h e s t l e v e l o f p r e p a r e d n e s s
a n d to t a l ly r e a d y f o r a l a u n c h t h e n e x t d a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s s o i n p a r a g r a p h 2 9 y o u s a y
t h is w a s t w o d a y s , a r e y o u m a k i n g a m is t a k e w h e n y o u s a y o n e d a y,
two days before the launch on the 19 th of August.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll I w o u ld g o w i t h t h e w r it t e n s u b m is s i o n
y o u k n o w.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I t w o u ld b e t w o d a y s ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

Ye s i t w il l b e c o r r e c t s o .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Al r i g h t , a n d t h e n y o u a ls o

e x tr a c t e d e x t e n s iv e ly fr o m y o u r b o o k fr o m p a g e 1 5 1 t o 1 5 3 .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s , y e s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h e n y o u d e a l w i th t h o s e

events.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o w h e r e y o u d e a l i n p a r a g r a p h
3 0 w i t h t h e a t t o r n e y s w h o a t te n d e d th a t m e e t i n g , th e fo u r t h m e e t in g
t h a t w e ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
20

O k a y.

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d w h e r e w a s i t e x a c t ly a t y o u
s a y it w a s a t t h e N N 7 S t u d i o s , w h e r e a b o u t th e r e w a s i t h e l d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e l l t h i s ( i n d is ti n c t ) h a d s e v e n s t u d io s

a n d th e p r e s i d e n t a r r iv e d a n d h e w a s r e c e iv e d o u ts id e t h e b u i l d i n g b y
t h e A ja y G u p t a , w h o w a s th e h e a d , t h e r e w a s – I w a s c a l le d i n , I w a s n ’ t
in t h a t w h o le m e e t in g I w a s a s k e d t o c o m e in q u ic k ly, i t w a s a c o l d

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
m o r n in g r e m e m b e r a n d t h e r e w a s

- L a x m i G o e l h a d fl o w n d o w n fr o m

I n d ia , I w a s p a r t o f t h a t te a m t h a t w e l c o m e d h i m .
T h e r e w a s N a z e e m a n d i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly M o e g s i e n w a s
a ls o t h e r e b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w 1 0 0 % , b u t N a z e e m w a s d e fi n i t e l y t h e r e , p a r t
o f t h e te a m t h a t r e c e iv e d h i m a t t h e g a t e a n d t h e n h e w a s b r o u g h t i n
a n d h e w a s g iv e n a t o u r o f t h e e n tir e o ff ic e . I w a s a s k e d t o e x p l a i n t o
h i m t h e v a r i o u s – t h e e q u i p m e n t a n d g e a r t h a t w a s i n t h e p r o d u c ti o n
c o n tr o l r o o m , I e x p l a i n e d to h i m th e s tu d i o s a n d t h e v a r i o u s a s p e c ts o f
it . H e w e n t t o th e g r a p h i c s t e a m , w e n t t o t h e v i d e o e d i t a r e a , a l l o f t h a t
10

a n d t h e n h e c a m e i n to a r o o m w h e r e t h e s e n i o r te a m m e t w i th h i m .
T h e r e w a s a r e q u e s t a g a in t o h i m f o r a n in t e r v i e w w h ic h h e d e c li n e d
a g a in a n d t h e n y o u k n o w t h e r e w a s a n ( in d is ti n c t) .

I d e s c r ib e d th e

o th e r d e t a i ls . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON :

S o r r y, s o t h is w a s n ’ t t h is f o u r t h m e e t in g w a s n ’ t a

m e e ti n g i n t h e n o r m a l s e n s e , w a s i t ?

Yo u w e r e ju s t s h o w in g t h e

President was being shown around the studios and so on.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A r o u n d , I w o u ld c a l l i t a m e e ti n g a l s o

b e c a u s e y o u k n o w th e r e w a s a h o ld i n g r o o m w h e r e th e P r e s i d e n t h a d
c o m e in a n d y o u k n o w th e s e n i o r te a m w a s s i t ti n g t h e r e a n d t h e y w e r e
20

d is c u s s in g w i th h i m , b u t it w a s n o t li k e t h e o t h e r m e e t in g s in th e s e n s e
t h a t th e r e w a s n o .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e p u r p o s e w a s r e a l ly s h o w in g h i m a r o u n d ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t e v e r d is c u s s i o n h a p p e n e d . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s ju s t n o r m a l d is c u s s i o n .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

D is c u s s i o n y e s a n d t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r

r e q u e s t f o r h i m t o g iv e a n i n t e r v ie w w h ic h h e s a id t h a t h e w o u l d g iv e i t
la t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja , ja o k a y, a lr i g h t , t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

And in that paragraph you

m e n ti o n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 3 0 t h a t M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a w a s a ls o p r e s e n t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

S o I ju s t w a n t t o ju s t y o u w il l

t e ll m e w h e th e r t h is is a d is c r e p a n c y, i f y o u g o b a c k to p a g e 2 4 ,
p a r a g r a p h 2 7 , w h e r e y o u s a y t h is m e e ti n g w a s a tt e n d e d b y Mr
D u d u z a n e S u m a , t h e fi r s t a n d l a s t m e e t i n g I s a w h i m a t t e n d .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

No so he was there because I would go

w h a t w a s t h e r e in t h e b o o k y o u k n o w w h ic h I – w h ic h t o t h e b e s t o f m y
k n o w l e d g e s o y e s in t h e m e e t i n g i n t h e s e n s e th a t l ik e th e C h a ir m a n
s a i d y o u k n o w th e th r e e m e e t i n g s w e r e a p r o p e r s i t - d o w n m e e t i n g
w h e r e s tr a t e g i e s w e r e d is c u s s e d a n d a l l o f t h a t, th is o n e w a s a m e e t in g
w h ic h w a s g e n e r a lly w e j u s t s h o w h i m t h e a r e a s , y o u k n o w t h e v a r i o u s
d e p a r t m e n ts a n d t h e v a r i o u s t h e ( i n d is t in c t) r o o m a n d th e s t u d i o a n d
20

t h i n g s li k e t h a t , s o y e s D u d u z a n e . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : ( I n a u d ib le – m ic r o p h o n e o ff)
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : Because I made a record of that ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , s o w h ic h 0 s o w h a t y o u

s t a te i n p a r a g r a p h 2 7 w o u l d s t il l b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t th e f ir s t a n d t h e
la s t m e e ti n g I s a w h i m a t te n d .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J a , b e c a u s e t h is w a s n o t a m e e ti n g i n t h a t
s e n s e y o u k n o w s o . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o y o u d i s ti n g u is h b e tw e e n t h e
two?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u . A n d th e n s o
y o u w e r e s h o w i n g t h e P r e s id e n t a r o u n d a c c o r d in g t o y o u a n d h o w l o n g
d i d h e s p e n d a t t h e s tu d i o ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t c a n y o u k n o w I t h i n k I w i ll g o w i th w h a t
10

is w r it t e n in th e b o o k b e c a u s e a s f a r a s I – t o t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e
h e c a m e i n , h e s a t in t h e h o ld in g a r e a f o r a b o u t te n o d d m i n u t e s a n d
t h e n h e s p e n t s o m e ti m e i n p r o d u c ti o n c o n tr o l r o o m w h i l e t h e b u l le t in
w a s b e in g r o ll e d w h ic h w a s s a y a b o u t fi f te e n m i n u t e s , h e a s k e d m e
a b o u t t h e v a r i o u s e q u i p m e n t , y o u k n o w t h e v i d e o s w i tc h i n g e q u ip m e n t ,
t h e a u d i o e q u i p m e n t a n d I g a v e h i m a d e s c r i p ti o n a n d h e s t o o d t h e r e
w a t c h in g th e b u ll e ti n . T h e n h e s p e n t s o m e t i m e i n t h e r o o m w h e r e th e
v id e o e d i ti n g ta k e s p l a c e .

H e w a s a ls o t a k e n t o t h e r o o m w h e r e t h e

g r a p h i c p r o d u c t i o n ta k e s p l a c e , a n d h e s p e n t a s u b s ta n ti a l a m o u n t o f
ti m e t h e r e , a b o u t t e n m in u t e s i n e a c h o f t h o s e p la c e s .
Then he took – he went to the studio where he waited because

20

y o u k n o w i t w a s a l iv e s t u d i o s o h e c o u l d n ’ t c r o s s a n d g o s o h e w a i t e d
f o r s o m e ti m e t h e r e , b u t h e o b s e r v e d a ll t h e v a r i o u s e le m e n ts o f t h e
studio.

Th e n a t s o m e p o in t h e a ls o d e c i d e d t h a t h e w o u l d g o t o t h e

v a r io u s d e p a r t m e n ts w h e r e t h e s ta ff w a s s e a t e d , s o h e w e n t to t h e
p l a c e w h e r e t h e p r o g r a m m i n g t e a m w a s s e a te d , h e w e n t y o u k n o w r i g h t

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a c r o s s t h e n e w s r o o m , s h o o k h a n d s w i t h a l o t o f p e o p le , a s k e d t h e m
t h e ir n a m e s , y o u k n o w e n g a g e d i n s m a l l c o n v e r s a t i o n w it h s o m e o f
t h e m , s o it w a s a l m o s t l ik e a c e le b r it y v is it i n g t h e n e w s r o o m w h e r e
p e o p l e w e r e c a ll in g o u t t o h i m a n d h e w a s w a v i n g b a c k a t t h e m a n d
t h i n g s l ik e t h a t , s o i n a l l I w o u l d s a y h e s p e n t a b o u t 4 0 m a y b e 5 0
m i n u t e s d u r i n g t h a t v is i t i n t h e s tu d io .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m u c h ti m e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B e t w e e n fo r t y a n d fi f ty m i n u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h 4 0 a n d 5 0 , fiv e z e r o ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , f iv e z e r o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

S o I ta k e i t th a t a c c o r d i n g to

w h a t y o u s t a te i n 3 5 . 6 t h a t y o u a r e t h e p e r s o n w h o a c t u a l ly – b e c a u s e
s o m e b o d y h a d s a i d l o o k t h e y d i d n ’ t w a n t t h is v is i t t o b e m a d e p u b l ic .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

And you are the person who

s a i d t o t h e c a m e r a c r e w n o d o n ’ t t a k e a n y p h o t o s o f t h is .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s b e c a u s e y o u s e e I w a s c a ll e d i n t o a

m e e ti n g , t h e H e a d o f Pr o d u c ti o n a t t h a t ti m e w a s K a r u n Ta k o r e e , h e
20

c a m e u p t o m e a n d s a i d t h a t w e ’v e g o t th e c a m e r a s , w h a t s h o u ld w e –
s h o u l d w e b e fi l m i n g t h is v is it s o I a s k e d N a z e e m a n d h e a s k e d M r A t u l
G u p t a a n d A t u l G u p t a c l e a r l y s a id t h a t h e d id n o t w a n t a n y r e c o r d i n g
o n t h a t s o w h il e t h e t e a m w a s r e a d y t o r e c o r d a t t h e l a s t m i n u t e t h e y
w e r e t o l d n o t t o d o a r e c o r d in g , a n d K a r u n h a d t o th e n w i th d r a w a l l t h e
c a m e r a m e n w h o h a d t a k e n a d v a n ta g e p o s it io n s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
g e t a s h o t o f t h e P r e s id e n t m o v i n g i n t h e v a r i o u s d e p a r t m e n t s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

A n d y o u a r e t h e o n e w h o t o ld

K a r u n n o t t o d o i t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , I a m j u s t tr y in g to

u n d e r s t a n d fo r a j o u r n a l is t t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e th i n g th a t ’s q u i t e
e x c i ti n g , if s o m e b o d y s a y s d o n ’ t r e c o r d t h is a j o u r n a lis t w o u ld h a v e
s a i d r e c o r d i t , w h i ls t th e y s a y d o n ’ t m a k e i t p u b l ic y o u w o u l d a c tu a l ly
w a n t to m a k e i t p u b li c b e c a u s e i t ’s q u it e i n t e r e s ti n g n e w s is n ’t it ?
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Mmm you see because these were not

o r d i n a r y ( in d i s ti n c t) t h is is n o t a n o r d i n a r y n e w s r o o m , t h is w a s l ik e a
s a i d a l m o s t li k e

N o r th K o r e a n s t a ti o n th a t w a s b e i n g s e t u p a t t h a t

ti m e , s o y o u k n o w f o r m e i t w a s c l e a r t h a t y o u k n o w I e i t h e r, I e i th e r l e d
o r I g o t o u t o f t h e w a y ,b u t t h a t t i m e I d e c i d e d t h a t y o u k n o w I w o u l d n ’ t
b e a l l o w e d t o l e a d h e r e , t h i s is a s t a ti o n w h ic h is n o t , y o u k n o w I h a d a
ti t le a n d a p o s it i o n b u t I h a d n o le a d e r s h i p r o l e th e r e a t a ll , s o w o u l d
t h e y w a n t i t t o b e r e c o r d e d , I s a i d n o I c a n w a i t th a t b e c a u s e t h e
p r o d u c t io n te a m w a s r e p o r t in g i n to m e , I to l d t h e m th a t i f th e s e g u y s
d o n ’t w a n t y o u t o r e c o r d i t b e c a u s e i f I s a id t h a t h e w o n ’ t r e c o r d i t t h e
20

c a m e r a m a n w o u l d h a v e h a d t h e b r u n t o f it , t h e P r o d u c t io n H e a d w o u ld
h a v e g o t th e b r u n t o f i t , y o u k n o w t h e y w o u l d h a v e p r o b a b l y l o s t t h e ir
jo b s o r g o t t e n a b u s e d o r w o r s e y o u k n o w s o I j u s t s a i d i f t h e y ’v e t a k e n
d e c is i o n o n n o t r e c o r d in g i t ju s t d o n ’ d o i t .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Do you know whether

i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r t h e Pr e s id e n t h a d v i s i t e d t h e s tu d i o w h e t h e r t h a t

Page 183 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c a m e o u t in a n y o f t h e n e w s b r o a d c a s ts ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : Of course it did, you know because I think it
c a m e o u t i n a l l t h e p a p e r s , s o m e w e b s i t e s a s w e l l , b e c a u s e l ik e I s a i d
y o u k n o w i t w a s f o r w a n t o f a n y o t h e r w o r d s t u p id o n t h e ir p a r t t o
a c t u a ll y b e l i e v e t h a t th e y c o u ld h a v e a s e c r e t v is it b y a H e a d o f S t a te
in t o a n e w s r o o m t h a t ’s f u l l o f jo u r n a lis ts w h o w o r k e d i n o th e r
o r g a n i s a t io n s , w h o h a v e g o t f r i e n d s in o t h e r o r g a n is a ti o n s a n d k e e p it
a l l u n d e r w r a p s . I b e li e v e a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y t h e r e w e r e q u e s t io n s
asked
10

of

th e

Pr e s i d e n t’s

o ff ic e

and

th e

spokesperson

of

the

P r e s i d e n ti a l O ff ic e a t t h a t ti m e , Mr M a h a r a j , h a d g i v e n a s t a t e m e n t b y
s a y in g t h a t t h i s is p a r t o f t h e e n g a g e m e n t w i t h t h e m e d ia t h a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t g e t s i n t o fr o m t i m e to t i m e , h e a ls o s p o k e a b o u t h o w h e h a d
v is it e d a n o t h e r n e w s r o o m r e c e n tl y a n d t h is w a s p a r t o f th e s e r i e s o f
t h a t , s o th e y d i d n o t d e n y i t , th e Pr e s i d e n t ’s O ff ic e d id n o t d e n y i t , a n d
m a n y n e w s p a p e r s d id c a r r y t h a t a t t h is t i m e , b u t I w o u l d w a n t t o s a y a t
t h is ti m e th a t t h e y w e r e u n d e r t h e m is t a k e n n o t i o n th a t t h e y c o u l d h a v e
a v e r y s e c r e ti v e m e e ti n g o f th e P r e s id e n t w h e r e h e i n te r a c t s w i t h t h e
jo u r n a li s ts a n d t h e s t a ff t h e r e , a n d t h e te c h n ic a l t e a m a n d t h o s e a r e –
a n d i t w o u ld r e m a in u n d e r w r a p s .

20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , a n d t h e r e a f t e r w a s t h e r e

a n y e n q u ir y a s t o w h o w o u ld h a v e le a k e d t h a t in f o r m a t io n a m o n g s t th e
jo u r n a li s ts th a t w e r e th e r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I d o n ’ t th i n k s o b e c a u s e y o u k n o w t h a t w a s
s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s t h e r e a n d a ls o t h e r e w e r e a w h o l e l o t o f o th e r
b a t t le s to b e f o u g h t a t th a t t i m e y o u k n o w b e c a u s e w e w e r e l ik e I s a id

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
it w a s a tr a i n w r e c k w a i ti n g t o h a p p e n , w e k n e w w e w e r e o n t h e s a m e
tr a c k a s a n o t h e r t r a i n c o m i n g i n t h e o p p o s i t e d i r e c ti o n a t d o u b l e th e
s p e e d a n d fo r u s t o g e t i n t o a n y o th e r in v e s ti g a ti o n a t th a t t i m e w o u ld
h a v e b e e n s u ic id a l b e c a u s e a n y w a y s w e d id n ’ t h a v e h a lf t h e e q u i p m e n t
in p l a c e , w e d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e t r a in i n g th a t w a s r e q u ir e d l ik e I s a i d th e
b u g s h a d n ’ t b e e n f ix e d a n d w e w e r e g o i n g t o l a u n c h i n 4 8 h o u r s , s o w e
h a d – s o I w o u l d l o o k a t m y s e lf t h e n a s t h e c a p ta i n o f t h e Ti t a n ic a t
t h a t t i m e w h il e i t w a s s in k i n g y o u k n o w, s o t h a t w a s w h a t w a s o n m y
m i n d a n d e v e n i f t h e y d i d c o n d u c t a n e n q u ir y a n d a ll o f t h a t , I a m n o t
10

a w a r e o f th a t y o u k n o w b e c a u s e I c u t my s e l f o ff a l l o f th a t a n d I w a s
ju s t f o c u s in g o n h o w to g e t t h e fir s t d a y r ig h t y o u k n o w, b e c a u s e m y
i m m e d i a t e fo c u s 4 8 h o u r s b e f o r e la u n c h t h a t w e w o u ld d e s p it e
e v e r y t h i n g t h a t c o u l d g o w r o n g h o w c o u ld I s a l v a g e th e fi r s t fe w h o u r s ,
h o w c o u l d I s a l v a g e th e f ir s t d a y, w h i c h I k n e w a t th a t ti m e w a s a l o s i n g
b a t t le .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a lr i g h t , a n d t h e n y o u d e a l
in – n o w t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s m o v i n g a r o u n d a n d th e n a t t h e e n d o f t h e
t o u r w h a t h a p p e n e d , th e r e ’s s o m e w h e r e w h e r e y o u m e n ti o n e d w h e r e
y o u a c t u a l ly s p e n t a b i t o f ti m e , w a s i t i n t h e s il v e r r o o m i n p a r a g r a p h

20

3 0 . 1 0 , y e s a n d t h e r e a s o n s w h y t h e y s p e n t a p e r i o d o f ti m e t h e r e .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

J a s o t h i s is t h e m o v e m e n t t h a t h e s p e n t

s o m e ti m e in t h e s e r v e r r o o m h e w a s t o ld a b o u t y o u k n o w b e c a u s e
t h e r e is a f a ir ly l a r g e s e r v e r t h e r e w h ic h r e a l ly is th e h e a r t o f t h e
o p e r a ti o n s w h e r e a ll t h e g r a p h ic s a n d e v e r y t h i n g i s i n t e g r a t e d . H e w a s
e x p l a i n e d th a t h e w e n t to th e g r a p h ic s r o o m , t h e m a s te r c o n t r o l r o o m .

Page 185 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
T h e m a s t e r c o n tr o l r o o m is r e a lly th e l a s t b o a r d b e fo r e th e s i g n a l g o e s
o n a ir th a t is w h e r e t h e a d v e r t is in g a n d t h e p r o m o s a r e i n s e r t e d s o h e
w a s t o l d w h a t – a b o u t t h e fu n c t io n a l i ty t h e r e . T h e v i d e o [ i n d is ti n c t ] s o
t h a t w a s t h e t o u r th a t w a s g iv e n t o h i m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : H e w a s a l s o s h o w n a f e w p r o m o s th a t w e r e
p r o d u c e d b y t h e g r a p h ic s t e a m .

S o t h o s e w e r e th e p r o m o s t h a t w e r e

there and he seemed impressed on seeing that. But I thought that he
m o s t i n te r e s t e d y o u k n o w t h e r e w a s – t h e r e w e r e a f e w te c h n ic a l
10

g l it c h e s th a t w e n t o n a ir in te r m s o f t h e o n a ir g r a p h ic s y s t e m
c o l l a p s e d . T h e li f e s o u r c e s s t a r t e d f a i li n g a s w e l l .

S o a l l o f th a t w a s

a ls o h a p p e n in g w h il e h e w a s th e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o h e d i d s p e n d a l a r g e p a r t o f th e t i m e in
t h e p r o d u c t io n c o n t r o l r o o m w h e r e h e w a n t e d t o k n o w a b o u t t h e
e q u ip m e n t th e r e y o u k n o w e s p e c i a l ly th e a u d i o s y s te m b e c a u s e th e r e
w e r e a lo t o f k n o b s a n d s w i tc h e s a n d li g h ts th a t w e r e t h e r e h e w a n t e d
t o k n o w w h a t t h e f u n c ti o n o f e a c h o f t h o s e m a c h in e s w e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n y o u s a y a f te r h e
20

h a d h a d th e t o u r t h e n h e le f t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u a r e o n e t h e p e o p l e t h a t
s a w h i m o ff a n d w h o e ls e w a s in y o u r c o m p a n y ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I t h i n k th e e n tir e t e a m t h a t r e c e iv e d h i m

s a w h i m o ff a s w e l l y o u k n o w b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a c o n v o y o f c a r s t h a t

Page 186 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c a m e in a n d h e s a t th e r e a n d h e le f t fr o m t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

T h is e v id e n c e t h a t y o u

h a v e p u t u p i n t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t a n d a s w e h a v e i n d ic a te d t o
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n y o u e x tr a c t e d it m o s t o f i t i f n o t a ll o f i t fr o m y o u r
book.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A m I c o r r e c t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

A n d i f I m a y ju s t t a k e y o u to

y o u r b o o k r i g h t a t t h e o u ts e t y o u – th is i s s o m e th i n g th a t y o u s t a te . I f
y o u h a v e a n o te – n o t e t o th e r e a d e r.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O h y o u d id n o t b r in g y o u r c o p y ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o I h a v e n o t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O h a l r i g h t . M r C h a ir p e r s o n w e
h a d a c o p y a v a il a b l e t o y o u m i g h t I ju s t – j u s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u w a n t t o r e f e r t o s o m e t h i n g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e b o o k ?

20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t o p a g e – y e s to n o t e t o th e
r e a d e r.

I t i s u n f o r tu n a te ly i t is n o t a p a g e n u m b e r i t i s j u s t a f te r th e

ti t le o f t h e b o o k a n d th e a u t h o r a n d t h e n th e r e is n o t e t o th e r e a d e r
w h ic h w il l s h o w w h e n w a s t h e b o o k p u b l i s h e d a n d c o u l d w e j u s t r e f e r
t h e w it n e s s t o m y c o ll e a g u e s ’ b o o k j u s t th a t p a r t s o t h a t h e c a n r e a d i t.
Ye s c o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d w h a t y o u s t a te d th e r e ?

Page 187 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
“The

events

[i n d is t in c t]

book

took

p la c e

as

r e m e m b e r e d b y R a je s h S u n d a r a m . W e h a v e tr ie d to
v e r i fy w h e th e r t h e m e e t in g s a n d c o n v e r s a ti o n s to o k
place as described in the book.

F o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t

Jacob Zuma was approached for corroboration as
w e r e b r o th e r A tu l a n d A j a y G u p t a . To d a t e w e h a v e
n o t r e c e iv e d – w e h a v e r e c e i v e d n o r e s p o n s e fr o m
t h e m a n d t h e y w i ll – t h e y m a y w e l l h a v e a d i ff e r e n t
in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f e v e n ts a n d b y p o i n ti n g t h is o u t w e

10

le a v e i t to y o u d e a r r e a d e r to m a k e u p y o u r m i n d .”
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d e v e r y t i m e w h e n y o u
w e r e q u o t in g fr o m o r m a y b e b e fo r e I – w e l e a v e t h e b o o k .

Sorry the

d a t e o f p u b l ic a ti o n o f t h e b o o k c o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d th a t i n t o th e r e c o r d
before we leave that
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y Ms N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t a u s u a l n o t e t o th e r e a d e r ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : Oh you see the book…
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : To a r e a d e r in b o o k s ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O h y o u s e e b e c a u s e th e r e is a h is t o r y t o

t h is . I w il l te ll y o u w h y b e c a u s e l ik e I s a id I w r o t e th is b o o k i n 2 0 1 4 b u t
there

were

c ir c u m s t a n c e s

then

where

you

know

much

of

the

c o r r o b o r a t io n t h a t w a s n e e d e d fo r t h is w e r e p e o p l e w h o w e r e s ti ll
w o r k i n g w i th A N N 7 a t th a t ti m e a n d t h e r e w a s a l s o t h e p u b li s h e r

Page 188 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h o u g h t w e h a d to b e a h u n d r e d p e r c e n t s u r e t h a t t h e le g a l p a r t o f t h i s
– t h a t w e w e r e o n th e c le a n . A n d th e r e w e r e is s u e s t h e r e a n d w e w e r e
a d v is e d b y th e la w y e r s t h a t y o u k n o w w e c a n n o t g o a h e a d a t t h is p o i n t .
B u t w h a t h a p p e n e d b y 2 0 1 8 w a s th a t w e h a d th e G u p t a l e a k s t h a t h a d
b e c o m e p u b li c . W e h a d a w h o l e l o t o f p e o p l e w h o w e r e w o r k i n g w i t h m e
a t t h a t t i m e h a d l e f t A N N 7 t h e y h a d ta k e n u p p o s i t io n s w it h Al J e z e e r a .
S o m e o f t h e m h a d g o n e to Tu r k e y to w o r k w i t h D R D . S o m e o f t h e m h a d
c o m e b a c k t o In d i a a n d t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g w it h th e t o p s ta t io n s t h e r e .
A n d t h e y – y o u k n o w t h e n c o r r o b o r a ti o n w a s e s t a b l is h e d a t t h a t ti m e .
10

I t w a s a l s o t h e t i m e w h e n Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s n o l o n g e r i n o ff ic e . T h e
G u p t a b r o th e r s h a d l e f t t h e c o u n tr y.

T h e H a w k s h a d g o n e to t h e ir

S a x o n w o ld h o m e a n d th e y fo u n d t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t t h e r e . A n d a t t h a t
ti m e t h e p u b l is h e r s e n t th e m a n o tic e s a y i n g t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o
p u b lis h th is b o o k w i t h i n fi f te e n d a y s a n d t h is is t h e f u ll m a n u s c r ip t o f
t h e b o o k a n d c o u l d y o u c o m e b a c k i f t h e r e is a n y o b j e c ti o n ? It is h a s
a b o u t a y e a r a n d a h a l f r ig h t n o w a p p r o x i m a t e ly w e h a v e n o t h e a r d
b a c k fr o m th e m .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
20

S o – s o th a t is w h y – y o u k n o w w h i le t h e

b o o k w a s w r i t t e n I s t a r te d w r i ti n g th e b o o k in 2 0 1 3 I g a v e t h e f u l l
m a n u s c r i p t a b o u t 2 0 1 4 . I t w a s p u b li s h e d i n M a r c h 2 0 1 8 m u c h w i t h o u t
a n y c h a n g e s to t h e c o r e o f t h e b o o k i n 2 0 1 8 . A n d a ft e r t h e d u e p r o c e s s
w a s f o ll o w e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a id y o u s t a r te d w r i t in g t h e b o o k a b o u t d a y s a ft e r
y o u h a d l e ft S o u t h A fr ic a ?

Page 189 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Is that right?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPER SON: So you left South Africa sometime in September 2018.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J a 2 S e p t e m b e r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 2 n d .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o t h e b o o k – y o u s t a r t e d w r i ti n g t h e b o o k w i t h i n

d a y s th e r e a ft e r ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n d id y o u f i n is h w r i t in g th e b o o k ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : Oh I can check that and get back to you but
it w a s i n th e fir s t h a l f o f 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u f in is h e d it a b o u t d u r i n g t h e f ir s t h a l f o f 2 0 1 4 ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : Ja to the best of my knowledge.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

A n d th e n y o u s u b m i tt e d t o t h e p u b li s h e r s o r

what happened?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I – y o u k n o w I s u b m i t te d it c h a p te r b y

chapter by email
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a s y o u w e r e w r i ti n g .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e s e n d i n g i t y e s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

So as soon as a chapter was completed I

w o u ld g i v e it b y e m a il to t h e p u b li s h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : [ I n d is ti n c t ]
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y e s .

A n d – a n d t h e n t h e p u b li s h e r w a n t e d t o

in v e s t i g a t e th e s t o r y i n th e b o o k , t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e b o o k b e f o r e
p u b lis h in g , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . B e c a u s e I t h in k t h e r e w a s a p r o c e s s
t h a t th e y f o l lo w e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e r e is a l e g a l v e t ti n g th a t h a p p e n s a n d
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h is a d v i c e fr o m th e l e g a l l a w y e r s t h a t w e r e
s o u g h t a n d t h e r e w e r e c e r t a in t h i n g s t h a t t h e y w a n te d c o r r o b o r a ti o n t o
w h ic h w e c o u l d n o t g e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Because of the fact that most of the pe ople
w e r e s t il l w o r k i n g t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e y w e r e e m p lo y m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d t h e y f e l t t h a t t h e y h a d e n o u g h c o r r o b o r a ti o n
t o b e a b l e t o p u b li s h i t w h e n ? T h e y p u b l is h e d i t in 2 0 1 8 .

20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : March.
CHAIRPERSON: But when did they…
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Oh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s fa r a s y o u k n o w w h e n d i d th e y fe e l t h a t th e y h a d
e n o u g h c o r r o b o r a t io n ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I th i n k …

Page 191 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : To j u s ti fy p u b li s h i n g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

To t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e i t w a s a b o u t

t w o o r th r e e m o n th s b e fo r e t h a t y o u k n o w b e c a u s e th e n i f y o u lo o k a t
t h e e v e n t s t h a t w e r e u n fo l d i n g a t th a t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : E s p e c i a lly s o m e o f t h e c o r r o b o r a t io n c a m e
fr o m t h e G u p ta le a k s a n d t h e e m a il s t h a t w e r e t h e r e . A n d t h e n
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

R ig h t a r o u n d t h a t ti m e m o s t o f t h e p e o p le

w h o h a v e b e e n m e n ti o n e d i n t h i s b o o k a r e n o l o n g e r w o r k i n g w i t h A N N 7
a n d y o u k n o w t h e y a r e a v a i la b l e f o r

– to b e – to c o m e a n d

in d e p e n d e n tly v e r i f y s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h a v e b e e n s a i d i n t h i s
book.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm. So do you…
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Because if you had launched – you know

o n e o f t h e t h i n g s w a s a ls o a b o u t t h e s a f e ty o f t h o s e p e o p l e y o u k n o w.
B e c a u s e i f I – i f t h is b o o k c o m e s o u t a n d y o u k n o w t h e r e a r e p e o p l e
w h o h a d m o v e d to S o u th A f r i c a w i t h t h e ir f a m i li e s a n d t h i n g s k n o w i n g
t h e w a y t h e G u p ta f a m ily o p e r a t e d w e t h o u g h t i t w a s t h e r ig h t th in g to
20

d o t o j u s t h o l d o n t o t h e m a n u s c r ip t u n til w e c o u l d fi n d a b e t t e r
c o r r o b o r a t io n to t h e f a c ts o f t h e b o o k .
CHAIRPERSON :

N o I j u s t t h o u g h t t h a t I a m n o t u s e d t o s e e i n g th a t

k in d o f n o t e t o t h e r e a d e r i n a b o o k s o I w a s w o n d e r i n g .

Is this

s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e u s e d to w i t h o t h e r b o o k s y o u r s e lf ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o b u t I t h i n k – th o u g h t it w a s f a i r to t e l l

Page 192 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h e p e o p l e th is y o u k n o w b e c a u s e h e r e t h i s is m y v e r s i o n o f t h e f a c ts .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h is i s s o m e t h i n g w h i c h t h e G u p ta f a m ily

w o u ld n o t a g r e e w i t h . T h i s is s o m e t h i n g t h a t P r e s i d e n t Zu m a w o u l d n o t
a g r e e w i th . To b r i n g t h a t t o t h e n o t ic e o f t h e v ie w e r s i s s o m e t h in g t h a t
w a s v e r y i m p o r t a n t w h i c h t h e p u b li s h e r s a i d th a t w e s h o u l d d o a n d I
a g r e e d o n e h u n d r e d p e r c e n t. A s a jo u r n a lis t I b e li e v e a l l s i d e s o f t h e
s t o r y s h o u l d b e to l d . T h is is m y s t o r y. T h i s is – t h i s is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h is i s y o u k n o w t o th e b e s t o f m y

k n o w l e d g e a n d r e c o ll e c t io n th e s e a r e t h e f a c ts t h a t I k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON :

J a b u t I – w h a t I a m a s k i n g is a d i ff e r e n t q u e s t io n .

W h e t h e r i t is y o u r o w n e x p e r ie n c e s t h a t i t is n o r m a l t o h a v e th is k i n d o f
n o t e to t h e r e a d e r i n a b o o k , is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u a r e u s e d to ? I
am just saying I do not remember having come across any book that
h a s g o t t h is n o t e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o it i s – i t is – I tr u s t i t is n o t n o r m a l b u t
t h e r e a r e – y o u k n o w s o i t is v e r y u n i q u e c ir c u m s t a n c e s in w h ic h th is
b o o k w a s w r it t e n a n d r e l e a s e d o v e r a p e r io d o f t i m e , o v e r a p e r i o d o f
20

years.
CHAIRPERSON :

B e c a u s e i t is li k e – i t i s li k e t h e p u b l is h e r d o e s n o t

h a v e e n o u g h c o n fi d e n c e in w h a t is s a i d i n t h e b o o k .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e f o r e fe e l s t h a t t h e y m u s t a le r t t h e r e a d e r to
s a y I c a s e w h a t is i n th e b o o k h e r e tu r n s o u t to b e n o t tr u e d o n o t

Page 193 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
blame us.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : H m . N o I s e e o f c o u r s e t h e p u b lis h e r w o u l d
b e in a m u c h b e t t e r p o s i ti o n t o te ll t h a t b u t I t h in k …
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t d o y o u – is t h a t y o u r o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h is

n o t e t o t h e r e a d e r o r d o y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th is
note?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o y o u s e e m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th is n o t e

a n d w h y I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t to p u t t h a t o u t is t h a t t h is is t h e – a
n a r r a t io n o f e v e n t s a s p e r m y – y o u k n o w t o th e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e
10

a n d t h is m a y b e d is p u t e d b y o t h e r s .

W e h a v e – t h e p u b lis h e r s h a s

g iv e n t h e m a d e q u a t e n o t ic e t o r e s p o n d t o t h e m a n u s c r i p t . T h e y w e r e
g iv e n a r e a s o n a b l e p e r i o d o f ti m e t o r e s p o n d . T h e y h a v e c h o s e n n o t to
r e s p o n d . E v e n a ft e r t h e p u b l is h i n g o f t h e b o o k i t i s – y o u k n o w i t w a s
p u b lis h e d i n M a r c h la s t y e a r i t is a lr e a d y J u n e n o w. T h e y h a v e n o t
r e s p o n d e d . N o n e o f th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e s e n t n o t ic e s a b o u t t h i s h a v e
r e s p o n d e d . S o c le a r ly i f th e y h a d s o m e t h i n g t o o p p o s e h e r e – i f t h e y
h a d c o m p e l li n g e v id e n c e a g a i n s t w h a t I h a v e w r i tt e n t h e y w o u l d h a v e
done so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t is m y b e li e f I c o u l d b e w r o n g b u t . . ;
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y n o t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . A n d

t h e n m a y b e j u s t o n t h e b o o k s ti ll . If y o u c o u l d j u s t tu r n t o p a g e 1 6 0 o f
the book.
CHAIRPERSON : 160?

Page 194 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : 1 6 0 Mr C h a ir m a n y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h th e

r e a s o n s w h y y o u d e c i d e d to r e s i g n a n d y o u d e a l w i th h o w y o u c r a f t e d
y o u r l e t te r o f r e s i g n a ti o n .

C o u l d y o u j u s t t e s ti fy t o th a t q u ic k ly a s t o

how?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O k a y s o t h i s a ft e r a f e w m o n t h s o f s e t t in g

u p t h e s t a ti o n w h ic h h a d b e e n e x tr e m e l y t r a u m a tic . I t h a d t a k e n a to ll
on my health.
10

It h a d l e f t m e t o ta ll y e x h a u s t e d a n d y o u k n o w a n d th e

fi n a l u n k i n d b l o w w a s t h e a c t u a l l a u n c h . L ik e I s a i d I h a d – y o u k n o w –
it s tr e s s e d m e a l o t to t h in k o f t h e l a u n c h t h a t w o u l d b e a n d i t w a s m y
w o r s t n ig h t m a r e c o m e tr u e t h e w a y th e s t a ti o n la u n c h e d .
d e c i d e d t o q u i t lik e I s a i d w e e k s b e fo r e I a c t u a l ly d i d .

And I had
And when I

w r o t e t h e r e s i g n a ti o n le t t e r I w a n te d t o p a r t o n v e r y g o o d te r ms y o u
k n o w. O f c o u r s e I w o u l d p r o b a b l y n e v e r w a n t to w o r k w i th t h e G u p t a ’s
a g a in . I p r o b a b ly w o n ’ t n e v e r t o b e a s s o c ia t e d w i t h N a z e e m H o w a o r
L a x m i G o e l f o r t h a t m a t t e r b u t I w r o t e a v e r y p o l it e l e t te r t h a n k i n g t h e m
a n d te ll in g t h e m th a t y o u k n o w th is w a s a g o o d t e a m th a t I w o r k e d w i th
a n d a l l o f th a t . B e c a u s e I w a n te d t o p a r t o n v e r y g o o d t e r m s w i th t h e m
20

y o u k n o w b u t I k n e w t h a t I w a s t o t – I w a s le a v in g b e c a u s e I w a s to t a l ly
f e d u p . I d id n o t a g r e e w i t h t h e i d e a o f t h e s t a ti o n . L i k e I s a i d I w a s
a ls o c o n n e d i n t o c o m in g i n a n d s e t ti n g u p a s ta t io n fo r w h a t I b e l ie v e
w a s a m a f i a l ik e o p e r a ti o n f o r s e t ti n g u p a p r o p a g a n d a s t a ti o n w h ic h I
d i d n o t w a n t to in t h e f ir s t p l a c e .

I h a d t o s ta y t h e r e b e c a u s e o f t h e

r e a s o n s th a t I e x p l a i n e d b e c a u s e th e r e w e r e c o l l e a g u e s t h a t w e r e

Page 195 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c o m i n g t h e r e w i t h th e ir fa m i li e s .

I h a d d e c i d e d to l a u n c h t h e s t a t i o n

a n d g o . B u t I d id n o t w a n t t h e p a r t in g o f w a y s t o b e b it t e r i n a n y w a y
y o u k n o w. I w o u ld – I j u s t t h o u g h t a r e s i g n a ti o n w h ic h w a s v e r y p o li t e
w h ic h th a n k e d t h e m . B e c a u s e I t h o u g h t t h a t w a s t h e r i g h t t h i n g to d o
a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e I w o u l d th e n o n c e I le f t t h i s o r g a n is a t i o n w o u l d h a v e
n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h e v e r a g a i n th a t w a s m y i n te n ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

A n d t h e n y o u r le t t e r

w o u ld n o t h a v e a r t ic u l a te d a n y o f th e th i n g s t h a t y o u h a v e r a is e d a s
e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o d a y ?
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o b e c a u s e t h e r e s i g n a ti o n l e t te r w h e n I

w r o t e t h a t I ju s t w a n te d i t t o b e a f i n a l p a r ti n g d o c u m e n t y o u k n o w
b e f o r e I l e f t a n d I d id n o t w a n t t o h a v e a n y b i t te r n e s s in t h e r e . I n e v e r
t h o u g h t t h a t – t h a t is a d o c u m e n t th a t w o u ld c o m e t o m e a f t e r s ix y e a r s
y o u k n o w b e f o r e a c o m m i s s io n . I t – to m e y o u k n o w I h a d jo in e d a lo t
o f o r g a n is a ti o n s , le f t a lo t o f o r g a n is a ti o n s .

S o m e w e r e e x tr e m e l y

h a p p y t h i n g s y o u k n o w a s I w a s a lw a y s g o in g f o r a m u c h b e t t e r
o p p o r t u n i ty w h e n I r e s ig n e d fr o m a n o r g a n is a ti o n b u t h e r e fo r th e f ir s t
ti m e i n my l i fe y o u k n o w I w a s r e s i g n i n g w i th n o o t h e r o p p o r t u n i ty o r
o ffe r i n m y h a n d . O f c o u r s e I k n e w t h a t w h e n I w e n t b a c k t h e r e w o u ld
20

b e m a n y m o r e o p p o r tu n it i e s t h a t w o u l d p r e s e n t t h e m s e lv e s a n d I ju s t
h a d p ic k a n d c h o o s e b u t I w a s n o t s a ti s fi e d w i t h t h e w a y t h i s c a m e
a b o u t.

I w a s n o t h a p p y a t a ll w it h t h e f a c t th a t t h e r e w a s s o m u c h

m ic r o - m a n a g e m e n t t h a t y o u k n o w t h e p r o f e s s io n a l s w e r e n o t a l lo w e d to
w o r k i t e n d e d u p t h e w a y i t d i d . B u t I d i d n o t w a n t a n y o f th e b i t t e r n e s s
t o g e t i n t o th e – to m y r e s i g n a ti o n l e t te r.

Page 196 of 225

I w a n t e d t o w r i t e a p o li t e

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
le t t e r a n d j u s t m o v e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d I w o u l d i m a g in e y o u
a ls o h a d t o b e c a r e f u l b e c a u s e i n th e e v e n t y o u w a n t e d a n o th e r jo b
t h e n y o u w o u ld h a v e t o m e n ti o n t h is t h a t l o o k I la u n c h e d A N N 7 i n S o u t h
A fr ic a a n d I – th e y m i g h t w a n t t o u s e it a s a r e f e r e n c e , is i t n o t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Would that have been one of

the reasons that you…
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
10

That could have been one of the reasons

b u t I w a s v e r y c o n f id e n t y o u k n o w. A l t h o u g h a f t e r t h e r e s ig n a ti o n h a d
b e e n g i v e n t h e l a s t c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t I w a s h a v i n g w i t h M r L a x m i G o e l
h e s a id t h a t y o u k n o w w h e n y o u g e t b a c k w e w i ll m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u d o
n o t g e t a n o t h e r jo b a n d t h i n g s lik e t h a t . I w a s a l w a y s c o n f i d e n t t h a t i f I
g o t b a c k t o In d ia

I h a d e n o u g h o f a r e p u t a ti o n t o fi n d m o r e

a s s ig n m e n ts . B u t t h a t c o u l d h a v e a ls o b e e n a th o u g h t t h a t w e n t i n t o m y
m i n d t h a t y o u k n o w j u s t p a r t w a y s a m ic a b ly t h e r e is n o p o i n t l o b b i n g
g r e n a d e s a n d l e a v in g th a t w a s m y i d e a a t t h a t t i m e y o u k n o w. J u s t p a r t
w a y s a m i c a b ly j u s t g iv e t h e y o u k n o w s a y t h e r ig h t t h i n g s a n d m o v e o n .
T h a t w a s my id e a .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

A n d th e n y o u – i n y o u r

e p il o g u e a t p a g e 1 6 1 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b e fo r e t h e e p il o g u e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : S o r r y – y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : On that same page at 160.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e r e a s o n s f o r y o u r r e s ig n a ti o n
y o u s a y in th e l a s t s e n t e n c e “ I d o s i n c e r e l y h o p e A N N 7 f in d s i n i ts
f u t u r e e d i t o r s t h e fo r c e t h a t w i ll b r e a k t h is m i n d - s e t a n d I u n s h a c k l e t h e
c h a n n e l fr o m t h e b o n d s t h a t p in it d o w n .” W h a t w e r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t
there?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o a l l th e t h i n g s t h a t I – t h e c h a ll e n g e s th a t
I f a c e d I t h o u g h t y o u k n o w w h a t I m e a n t in t h i s t h a t I r e a lly s i n c e r e l y
h o p e d a n d p r a y e d t h a t t h e y f o u n d a S o u t h A fr ic a e d i t o r a t s o m e p o in t i n
t h e f u tu r e w h o w o u l d h e lp t h e m b r e a k fr e e fr o m t h e l e g a c y o f th e
10

G u p t a ’s , t h e l e g a c y t h a t th e y b r o u g h t o f t h e c o r r u p t i o n a n d a l l t h e
d e a li n g s a n d t h e a s s o c i a ti o n s . Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a a n d th e [i n d is t in c t ] a n d
t h e m a n d a ll o f t h a t y o u k n o w a n d w o u ld t h e n b e a b l e t o l e a d t h e
e d i to r i a l te a m i n t o a n e w e r a w h ic h w o u l d b e w h a t g o o d j o u r n a lis m
should be about.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h is is n o t w h a t y o u s a i d in t h e l e t t e r th is is w h a t
y o u s a y i n th e b o o k ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : J a i n t h e l e t t e r – y o u s e e I c o u ld h a v e s a i d
a l o t o f th in g s y o u k n o w b u t I …
CHAIRPERSON : No I understand what you have said.

20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I – I w h e n I r e a d i t I th o u g h t y o u w e r e r e c o r d in g
w h a t y o u s a i d i n t h e l e t t e r.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o , n o . T h is i s j u s t a c o m m o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d o y o u h a v e t h e l e t t e r o f r e s i g n a ti o n s o m e w h e r e ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s i n fa c t i t is in t h e …

Page 198 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
CHAIRPERSON : Can we have a look.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s Mr C h a ir m a n . I t i s i n t h e
p a p e r s t h a t I m e n t i o n e d j u s t b e f o r e w e s t a r t e d a ft e r lu n c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
you.

C o u ld I j u s t h a n d u p – th a n k

M r S u n d a r a m y o u r e c a l l th e b u n d l e t h a t I g a v e y o u d u r i n g t h e

lu n c h b r e a k .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . I t is – w o u l d
10

a p p e a r. .
CHAIRPERSON : Ms Norman
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e p a g e s a r e p a r t o f t h is o t h e r f il e o r n o t?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

N o , n o t h is is th e a p p l ic a ti o n I m e n ti o n e d

M r C h a ir m a n fr o m M r M o e g s i e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t y o u m e n t io n e d o h y e s o k a y a lr i g h t.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : B u t h e h a s a t t a c h e d t h e l e tt e r
o f r e s i g n a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I t w o u ld b e – t h e p a g e s a r e n o t
n u m b e r e d u n f o r tu n a te ly i t w o u ld b e p a g e 5 . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 i t i s a c t u a l ly
page 6.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h e r e i t s a y s s u b je c t r e s ig n a t i o n ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : 27 August 2013.

Page 199 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y y o u w a n t t o [ in d is ti n c t ] .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . C o u ld
y o u t h e n j u s t r e a d o u t th e l e t te r M r S u n d a r a m .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t – is t h a t i n f a c t w h a t is –
did you send that letter on the 27 August at 18:18?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s I d id , I d i d a s fa r a s I r e c a l l I t h i n k t h is
w a s w h a t I h a d w r i t t e n a n d t h i s is …
10

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h a t y o u h a v e w r i t te n ?

could you please read it into the record?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: So…
“ D e a r L a x m i G o e l a n d [i n d is t in c t] I h a v e h a d t h e m o s t
e x h i la r a t in g t h r e e m o n t h s w o r k i n g w i th in I n fi n i t y
M e d i a i t h a s b e e n b y f a r th e b e s t p h a s e o f m y c a r e e r.
W o r k i n g w i t h th e l a u n c h t e a m a n d t a k i n g t o f r o m
s h e l l to w o n d e r f u l g o ld f l u s h c h a n n e l h a s b e e n a n
h o n o u r a n d a p r iv il e g e . I h a v e g a i n e d a l o t fr o m t h e
w o n d e r fu l m a n a g e m e n t t e a m b o th a s a jo u r n a l is t a n d
20

a s a m a n a g e r. T h e p a s s io n a n d d e t e r m i n a ti o n I h a v e
s e e n a n d l e a r n t h e r e w i ll r e m a i n w i t h m e t h r o u g h o u t
m y li f e .

H o w e v e r a t t h i s p o i n t I w o u l d l ik e t o p a r t

w a y s w i t h I n fi n i t y M e d ia a n d s p e n d ti m e w i th m y
a i li n g m o t h e r.

W h i le I w o u l d li k e t o b e r e l i e v e d a t

t h e e a r li e s t I a s s u r e y o u t h a t I w i ll s t a y w i t h th e

Page 200 of 225

Ye s

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
p r o j e c t f o r a s lo n g a s I a m n e e d e d . P l e a s e tr e a t t h i s
c o m m u n ic a ti o n a s a r e s ig n a ti o n l e t te r.

I have the

highest love, regard and re spect for the two of you
a n d l e a v e w i th t h e s a ti s fa c t i o n o f h a v i n g p l a y e d m y
s m a ll r o l e in l a u n c h i n g a w o n d e r f u l i n s t i t u ti o n a n d I
a m s u r e w il l – t h a t I a m s u r e w il l o u t liv e m e . T h a n k
y o u f o r y o u r l o v e , s u p p o r t a n d h e lp a t e v e r y s t e p o f
t h e w a y. I s e e k y o u r b le s s i n g s f o r m y f u t u r e – f o r m y
jo u r n e y a h e a d . R a je s h S u n d a r a m . ”
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . S o a r e a d e r
o f th is le t t e r w o u ld s a y lo o k y o u r e a lly p a r te d – y o u e v e n s o u g h t
b l e s s i n g fr o m t h e m s o y o u w e r e q u it e h a p p y i n te r a c t i n g w i t h t h e m o v e r
t h e t h r e e m o n th ’s p e r i o d .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll I w o u l d a g r e e w it h t h a t – d i s a g r e e w i th
t h a t b e c a u s e I w r o t e th is l e t t e r b e c a u s e y o u k n o w I w a s f il le d w it h a lo t
o f a n g e r.

L i k e I s a i d I h a d d e c i d e d t o l e a v e m u c h e a r l ie r b u t I h a d

a l w a y s k n o w n t h a t y o u k n o w w h e n y o u l e a v e a n d y o u p a r t w a y s th e r e
s h o u l d n o t b e a n y o f th a t b i tt e r n e s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . N o Mr S u n d a r a m . L is t e n t o th e q u e s t io n .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s N o r m a n is n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t w h a t y o u fe l t.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : Hm but what I have…
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e is t a l k i n g a b o u t w h a t s o m e b o d y r e a d in g th is b o o k
w h a t i m p r e s s io n t h e y w o u l d g e t o f h o w y o u fe l t. S o t h a t i s w h a t s h e is
a s k in g ?

Page 201 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll I a g r e e w i t h …

S o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e q u e s t io n i s w o u l d y o u a g r e e

t h a t a p e r s o n r e a d i n g th is l e tt e r o f r e s i g n a ti o n w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t
y o u l e ft [ w h a t i s t h e w o r d y o u u s e d ? ] b u t e ff e c ti v e ly y o u . .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h e G u p t a ’s y o u w e r e h a p p y

w i t h t h e m a n d e v e n s o u g h t t h e ir b l e s s i n g s .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Ja you were happy with them.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e ll I w o u l d t h i n k t h a t i f th e y r e a d m y b o o k
a n d th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h t h is r e s i g n a t i o n s c a m e t h e y w o u l d
understand.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM : No, no, no.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t . B u t ja i f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e b o d y w h o h a s n o t r e a d y o u r b o o k b u t ju s t r e a d s
t h e le t t e r.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e l l t h e y w o u l d v e r y e a s i ly t e n d to

m is u n d e r s t a n d t h e y w o u l d t h i n k I w a s h a p p y w h e n I q u i t a n d a ll o f t h a t
20

b u t y o u k n o w w h a t p u ts t h is le t t e r i n c o n t e x t i s t h e b o o k , i s t h e b o o k .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B e c a u s e I li k e I s a i d I a m n o t s o m e b o d y

w h o w o u l d t a k e b it t e r n e s s t o my g r a v e y o u k n o w. O f c o u r s e I h a d
d i ff e r e n c e s w i t h t h e m .

Of course I would never work with them again

but I just wanted you know a severance of ways, a parting of ways

Page 202 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
w h ic h w a s a m i c a b l e a n d ju s t m o v e o n y o u k n o w s o th a t ti m e I m e e t
L u x m i G o e l s o m e w h e r e in D e lh i it w o u l d n o t b e li k e I a m a v o i d i n g h is
g a z e o r w h a t y o u k n o w o r m o v in g i n t h e o t h e r d ir e c ti o n . U n c o m f o r ta b le
b e c a u s e w e h a d a – t h e s e s e r i o u s d i ffe r e n c e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o m y i n t e n ti o n i n w r i ti n g t h i s l e t t e r w a s t o
w r i t e a v e r y k in d , p o l i te l e tt e r w h i c h i s th a t i s th e k i n d o f p e r s o n I a m .
P u t t h a t in t h e ir h a n d a n d g o a n d I t h in k t h a t is h o w i t w o u l d h a v e
e n d e d u n le s s t h e y h a d t h e ir b o d y g u a r d s c h a s e a ft e r m e , u n le s s t h e y
10

h a d a l l th e o th e r e v e n ts th a t h a p p e n e d b e t w e e n t h e t i m e I g a v e m y
r e s ig n a ti o n a n d y o u k n o w m y e x i t fr o m S o u th A fr ic a .

S o t h i n g s w il l

h a v e t o b e t a k e n i n t o c o n te x t. B u t l ik e I s a i d y o u k n o w i n te r m s o f b y
r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th A t u l G u p ta o r L a x m i G o e l t h e y h a d b e e n d e c e n t i n
t h e ir c o n d u c t w it h m e a n d t h e w a y th e s p o k e w i t h m e t h e y w e r e
r e s p e c t fu l u n ti l t h e t i m e I h a d r e s ig n e d u n ti l t h e t i m e t h e t h i n g s
c h a n g e d w h e n I s a w th e r u d e s i d e , t h e s i d e w h ic h w a s n o t p o l it e .
Because this was before I had those bitter experiences. Before Laxmi
G o e l s a i d t h a t y o u k n o w y o u h a v e a t w o y e a r c o n tr a c t w i th u s y o u
c a n n o t l e a v e b e fo r e t h a t .
20

CHAIRPERSON : But Mr Sundaram.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON :

P le a s e h o l d o n .

Yo u h a v e to l d m e th e c o n d i t io n s

u n d e r w h ic h y o u w e r e w o r k i n g t h e r e a h e a d o f t h e l a u n c h . H a v in g fe w
h o u r s o f s l e e p . Yo u d i d s a y o f c o u r s e th e s a la r y w a s g r e a t. T h a t y o u
s a i d . S o y o u h a d t h a t s i tu a ti o n y o u k n o w a n d t h e n y o u d i d s a y t h a t y o u

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h a d n o – e ff e c ti v e ly y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g t o p l a y a n y r o l e i n th e e d it o r i a l
p o li c y o f t h e c h a n n e l b e c a u s e y o u w e r e t o l d t h a t h a d b e e n a l r e a d y b e e n
d e c i d e d . Yo u h a d – y o u f o r m e d a v ie w q u it e s o o n i f I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r
e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ly q u i t e s o o n a f te r y o u s t a r te d w o r k i n g i n S o u t h A fr ic a
t h a t th is w a s n o t a p l a c e y o u w a n te d to b e in f o r a lo n g t i m e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d th a t m u s t b e b e c a u s e y o u w e r e u n h a p p y w it h

w h a t y o u s a w h a p p e n in g th e r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON :
h a p p y.

B u t y o u r le t t e r s e e m s t o s u g g e s t th a t y o u w e r e v e r y

S o i n t h e p r o c e s s o f w a n t i n g t o l e a v e a m ic a b ly d id y o u

m is r e p r e s e n t w h a t y o u r tr u e fe e li n g s w e r e a b o u t t h i s w o r k p la c e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I w o u ld n o t s a y m is r e p r e s e n t y o u k n o w

b e c a u s e t h e k i n d o f p e r s o n th a t I a m w h e n I w r it e a l e t te r I – e v e n i f
t h e r e is a lo t o f b i t te r n e s s a n d e v e n i f t h e r e i s a l o t o f t h in g s t h a t I d i d
n o t a g r e e w i t h I w o u l d n o t l e t th a t r e fl e c t i n a r e s ig n a ti o n l e t te r.

I

w o u ld w r it e th a t i n a d e c e n t w a y. B u t h a v i n g s a id t h a t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
20

Ye s y o u k n o w m y f e e li n g s a t t h a t t i m e a r e

n o t r e fl e c t e d i n t h e r e s i g n a t io n l e t te r. I w a s a n g r y I w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I was conned into this project.

Also you

k n o w I c o u l d h a v e w r i t t e n a ll o f t h o s e t h i n g s a n d g o t t e n i n to a f i g h t w it h
t h e m w h ic h I w a n te d t o a v o id I w a s t o o ti r e d b y t h a t ti m e .

My health

h a d – I h a d s e r i o u s i s s u e s w it h m y h e a l t h b y w h ic h ti m e .

Page 204 of 225

I was

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
b a s ic a lly t ir e d a n d I w a s – I k n e w t h a t t h i s p r o j e c t h a d ta k e n o ff a n d i t
w a s a b u tt o f a l o t o f jo k e s o n s o c i a l m e d i a b e c a u s e o f t h e w a y t h e
la u n c h t o o k p l a c e a n d I j u s t w a n t e d a n e x i t . I a g r e e w i th y o u th a t th is –
t h is r e s i g n a ti o n l e t te r d i d n o t r e fl e c t m y m o o d a t t h a t t i m e . I t d i d n o t
r e fl e c t m y a n g e r. I t d i d n o t r e f le c t a ll t h e th i n g s th a t I w a n t e d to s a y
b u t i t w a s a c o n s c i o u s d e c is io n o n m y p a r t t h a t I w a n t e d to w r i t e a
le t t e r w h ic h w a s – w h i c h d id n o t – w h i c h d id n o t h a v e a n y b i t te r n e s s i n
it w h ic h t h a n k e d t h e m f o r t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t h e y g a v e m e b u t w h ic h t o ld
t h e m v e r y f ir m ly t h a t t h is i s w h e r e I – th a t I w a n t t o p a r t w a y s . Th is is
10

a r e s i g n a t io n l e t te r a n d I ju s t w a n t t o m o v e o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

M u s t I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a id t o m e a n

t h a t y o u t o o k a c o n s c i o u s d e c is io n t h a t y o u m u s t w r i te – y o u s h o u l d
w r i t e a le t t e r th a t d i d n o t c o r r e c tl y r e p r e s e n t h o w y o u fe l t a t t h e ti m e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s . Ye s t h a t i s tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n d i ffe r e n t w a y s o f w r i ti n g t h e
le t t e r a n d I j u s t w a n t y o u r c o m m e n t .

One way would have been to

v e n til a t e y o u r u n h a p p in e s s a n d th e r e a s o n s w h y y o u w e r e u n h a p p y t h a t
w o u ld b e o n e w a y.

Yo u d i d n o t w a n t t h a t b e c a u s e y o u w a n t e d th e

p a r t i n g o f w a y s t o b e a m ic a b l e . A n o t h e r w a y w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o s a y
20

y o u k n o w w h a t o k a y I w il l n o t v e n ti la t e a l l t h e r e a s o n s w h y I a m
u n h a p p y b u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e I a m n o t g o i n g t o m is r e p r e s e n t h o w I fe e l
o r I a m n o t g o i n g t o p r a is e t h e s e p e o p l e a f te r w h a t I h a v e e x p e r i e n c e d
here.

I w i ll j u s t s a y I h a v e d e c i d e d th a t i t is t i m e t o m o v e o n a n d I

w o u ld b e l e a v i n g a n d t h a t is i t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: Hm you see…

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t s a y m u c h b u t t h is l e t t e r s e e ms t o m e t o – t o
h e a p p r a is e s o n y o u r e m p l o y e r.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

S u r e s e e I d i d n o t s e e a n y r e a s o n t o g iv e

t h e m r e a s o n s w h y I a m q u i t ti n g th e y k n e w a b o u t it b e c a u s e I r a i s e d
e a c h a n d e v e r y o n e o f t h e m w i t h t h a t – t h e la w s th a t t h e y w e r e
b r e a k i n g . T h e v i o l a ti o n o f th e l a b o u r l a w s , v i s a l a w s .

W h e t h e r it w a s

a b o u t th e c o m p r o m i s i n g t h e e d i to r i a l in t e g r it y th a t w a s h a p p e n in g . A ll
o f t h o s e is s u e s I h a d r a is e d a n d I h a d f o u n d n o s o l u ti o n t o t h o s e . S o I
d i d n o t t h i n k i t w a s r i g h t a n d a b o u t t o b r in g t h o s e is s u e s u p b e c a u s e
10

t h a t is s o m e t h i n g th a t th e y k n e w a lr e a d y a n d t h e y h a d a l r e a d y m a d e u p
m y m in d t h a t t h e y d id n o t w a n t t o a d d r e s s i t in t h e w a y t h a t I w a n t e d it
s o th e o n ly w a y f o r m e w a s t o g o o u t a n d a t t h a t t i m e t h e m e n t a l
c o n d i ti o n i n w h ic h I w a s I t h o u g h t t h e b e s t t h i n g w o u ld b e t o w r i t e a
p o li t e m a i l , t h a n k t h e m , s a y t h a t y o u k n o w I h a d – t h is w a s o n e o f t h e
b e s t o p p o r t u n i t ie s t h a t I g o t a n d j u s t s o ft s o a p m y s e l f o u t o f t h e
s i tu a ti o n y o u k n o w w i t h o u t – b e c a u s e if I t o l d th e m t h e [i n d is t in c t]
r e a s o n w h y I a m q u it t in g t h e n th e y w il l s a y t h a t i t is p r o b a b l y I a m
tr y i n g t o a n g l e f o r t h e m t o b e t t e r th e c o n d i ti o n s s o th a t I c a n c o n ti n u e
t o s t a y o n t h a t w a s n o t m y in t e n t i o n .

20

I h a d d e c i d e d to s n a p m y ti e s

w i t h t h e m , s n a p i t f o r g o o d . O r c o u r s e I h a d s a i d h e r e t h a t u n t il th e y
fi n d a s u c c e s s o r I w a s w i ll i n g to c o n ti n u e b e c a u s e I d i d n o t w a n t to
le a v e th e m h ig h a n d d r y in t h e s e n s e t h a t y o u k n o w ju s t p a c k m y b a g s
a n d m o v e o v e r n i g h t.

I h a d g i v e n t h e m t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty i f t h e y w a n t it

w h ic h I t h o u g h t w a s t h e f a ir t h in g t o d o – y o u k n o w – a n d t h e k in d o f
p e r s o n w h o I a m e v e n t o d a y i f I h a d t o d o – i f I w o r k e d i n a s i m i la r

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
s i tu a ti o n I w o u l d d o t h e s a m e t h i n g w h ic h is t o t h a n k t h e m , t o p o l it e ly
s a y t h a t I s e e k y o u r b l e s s in g s o n m y j o u r n e y f o r w a r d a n d n o t – y o u
k n o w – l o o k fo r w a r d n o t lo o k b a c k t o w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e t h o s e
t h i n g s h a v e a l r e a d y b e e n d o n e a n d d u s t e d a n d I w a s v e r y c le a r t h a t
t h e y d i d n o t w a n t t o i m p r o v e o n a n y o f t h a t o r m a k e c o n d i ti o n s b e tt e r
t h a t I s ta y e d o n o r th i n g s li k e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I j u s t – I ju s t ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s a t t h a t t i m e w h e n y o u w r o te th e l e tt e r w e r e t h e
10

t h r e e m o n t h s t h a t y o u h a d s p e n t th e r e w o r k i n g t h e r e t h e m o s t
e x h i la r a t in g th r e e m o n th s a n d w a s t h a t th e b e s t p h a s e in y o u r c a r e e r a s
at that time?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e l l I w o u l d a n s w e r th a t q u e s ti o n in t w o

w a y s . Wa s i t e x h i la r a t in g w h e n i t c a m e t o w o r k in g w it h t h e G u p t a s a n d
in t e r a c ti n g w i t h P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a n d a ll t h e d ir ty t r ic k s a n d a ll o f t h a t
w a s h a p p e n in g a b s o l u t e ly n o t b u t w a s i t e x h i la r a t in g w o r k i n g w i t h th e
y o u n g te a m t h a t I w a s w o r k in g w i t h a b s o l u t e ly i t w a s ?

Wa s it

e x h i la r a t in g w o r k i n g w i t h t h e p a s s i o n a t e y o u n g p e o p le th e p a s s i o n t h a t
t h e y h a d fo r l e a r n in g n e w t e c h n i q u e s , t h e p a s s io n t h a t t h e y h a d – y o u
20

k n o w - t o w o r k a c c o r d i n g t o th e h i g h s t a n d a r d s o f p r o d u c ti o n a n d
jo u r n a li s m a b s o l u te ly.

S o t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t io n i t w a s e x h il a r a ti n g

w o r k i n g w i th t h e t e a m w h o w a s t h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d i n te r a c t w it h t h e y o u n g S o u th A f r i c a n s
…

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W h o I w a s w o r k in g w i t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A n d I a m s t il l v e r y p r o u d t o s a y t h a t I a m

s t il l
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Fr i e n d s w i t h m o s t o f t h e m . I c o n t in u e t o b e
in t o u c h w i t h th e m a l s o ( i n d is ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

And in terms of the – I have set up about

fi v e s t a ti o n s s o fa r in m y l i fe …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: And when it comes to the people who I met
here …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e y o u n g e s t w h o w e h a d h ir e d I h a v e n o t
f o u n d t h a t c a li b r e o r t h a t p a s s i o n a n y w h e r e e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: That I have set up.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o y e s b u t n o t – n o t i n t h e s e n s e t h a t ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: That I think was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e l a ti o n to y o u r te a m ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s tr u e o n ly i n r e l a ti o n t o ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Ye s , b e c a u s e y o u k n o w w h a t t h e y d i d w a s

n o t h i n g s h o r t o f a m ir a c le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I n te r ms o f – y o u k n o w – d e s p i te a ll t h e

c h a l le n g e s t o s e t u p a s ta t io n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h a t w a s fi t e n o u g h t o g o o n a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O f c o u r s e w h a te v e r d e fi c i e n c i e s t h a t w e r e

t h e r e b u t t h e v e r y f a c t t h a t 6 0 t o 7 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e s t a ff …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : T h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e – i t w a s th e ir fir s t jo b .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : To b e a b l e to tr a i n th e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

To b e a b l e t o – I d o n o t k n o w – u s e t h e ir

p a s s i o n , t o l a u n c h th e s t a t i o n s a s s o o n a s p o s s i b l e b e c a u s e i f w e h a v e
g o t e x p e r ie n c e d t h e y w ill j u s t s a y i t is n o t p o s s i b le . Yo u c a n n o t la u n c h
20

a s ta t io n a t t h i s s h o r t n o t ic e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B u t t h o s e w e r e y o u n g p e o p l e w h o p u t t h e ir
…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Yo u k n o w I r e m e m b e r s o m e o f t h e m w o u ld

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
c o m e in e a r ly in t h e m o r n i n g – s i x / s e v e n – a n d s t a y o n la t e i n t h e n ig h t
a n d e v e n t h e n th e r e w a s o n e ( in d i s ti n c t) v e h ic le w h ic h w a s p r o v id e d
w h ic h w o u ld g o i n th e o p p o s i t e d ir e c ti o n a n d t h e n c o m e b a c k p ic k t h e s e
p e o p l e u p a n d t h e y w o u ld s p e n d o n e h o u r e x tr a i n t h e o ffi c e b e c a u s e
t h e G u p t a fa m i ly c o u l d n o t fi n d it in t h e ir p o c k e ts to p u t a n e x tr a
v e h ic l e t o t a k e t h e p e o p le ( in d is ti n c t) b u t t h e y w o u l d e x p e c t t h e m to b e
in th e o ffic e a t s ix in t h e m o r n in g a n d m o s t o f t h e m d i d n o t d o i t
g r u d g i n g . A ll o f th e m a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t – I d o n o t k n o w a n y b o d y w h o
w o r k e d t h a t h a r d f o r t h o s e m a n y h o u r s w i t h f u ll d e d i c a t i o n g r u d g in g ly.
10

T h e y d id i t w it h t h e ir p a s s i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d li k e I s a id I h a v e n e v e r ( i n d is ti n c t) s u c h
a y o u n g t e a m w h ic h i s p a s s io n a t e a b o u t t h e w o r k lik e I f o u n d i n S o u th
A fr ic a .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Th a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . I d i d

n o t e s ta b l is h t h e ti m e th a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w o u l d w a n t t o a d j o u r n
20

t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll i f y o u – i f y o u w is h t o fi n is h w h a t y o u w a n t t o

fi n i s h t o d a y y o u c a n c o n t in u e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r s o m e t i m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h a t y o u h a v e i n m in d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O t h e r w i s e w e c a n c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w. S o t h e r e is s ti ll
ti m e i f y o u w a n
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th e r e is s t il l t i m e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u w a n t t o w r a p u p o r …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

M a y b e I s h o u ld w r a p u p

…
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : W i t h t h e is s u e s r e l a ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

To t h e le t t e r a s w e l l.

Thank

S o – a n d a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n h a s i n d ic a te d to y o u

t h e n y o u r l e t t e r y o u a ls o l e a v e a w i n d o w t h a t lo o k e d i n a s m u c h a s I a m
p u t t in g t h is t o a n e n d b u t I a m s ti ll o p e n t o a s s i s t w i t h t h e p r o j e c t . I t is
a wonderful project.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Yo u s e e b e c a u s e a s I a p r o fe s s i o n a l I th in k
I c a n n o t j u s t p a c k m y b a g s a n d g o e s p e c ia ll y w h e n I a m l e a v i n g t h e
team.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: So what I meant by saying that was that of
c o u r s e th e y w o u ld – th e y d o n o t h a v e a s u c c e s s i o n p la n b e c a u s e i t w a s
v e r y e a r l y i n t h e p r o j e c t a n d i t w a s a ll h a p h a z a r d . S o y o u – y o u d e c i d e
o n g e tt i n g a n o t h e r p e r s o n a n d t il l t h a t p e r s o n c o m e s i n t h e r e I a m
r e a d y t o h o l d f o r t – y o u k n o w – b u t a s o f t o d a y p l e a s e ta k e t h i s a s my

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
r e s ig n a ti o n le t t e r …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B u t I w ill c o n ti n u e fo r a s lo n g a s i t t a k e s fo r
y o u t o fi n d a n e w p e r s o n w h o is s u i t a b l e a n d w h o c a n r e p l a c e m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B u t I w a s v e r y c l e a r t h a t t h i s is m y

r e s ig n a ti o n le t t e r. T h a t is c l e a r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s a n d th e n w h e n y o u l e f t
on 2 September had they found a replacem ent?
10

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

No, because then by that time the whole

s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts h a d c h a n g e d v e r y q u i c k ly a n d th e y h a d g o n e v e r y
h o s til e a n d th e r e w a s – t h e y w e r e t r y in g t o c a u s e m e t o s t a y f ir s t a n d
t h e n t h e y w a n t e d m e t o s ig n a d o c u m e n t . L ik e I s a i d f o r th e f ir s t m o n t h
t h a t I w o r k e d fr o m 1 M a y 2 0 1 3 t o 1 J u n e 2 0 1 3 I s ti ll h a v e n o t b e e n p a i d
f o r th a t . T h e w o r k th a t I h a d d i d i n I n d i a – I h a v e n o t b e e n p a id f o r t h a t
( in d is ti n c t) b u t I h a v e n o t p r e s s e d f o r th a t . Yo u k n o w – i n i t ia ll y a t t h a t
ti m e I s a id th a t I w a n t it b u t t h e y s a i d if y o u a r e l e a v in g r i g h t n o w – i f
y o u h a v e r e s i g n i n g r ig h t n o w w e w il l n o t g iv e y o u w h a t e v e r i s d u e t o
y o u . I a ls o – y o u k n o w – a t th a t t i m e w e w e r e w o r k i n g lo n g h o u r s . W e
20

were working weekends.

W e w e r e w o r k i n g p u b l ic h o li d a y s a ll o f t h a t

a n d I h a d a q u e r y th a t – y o u k n o w – a m I e n t it l e d t o a n y o v e r ti m e o n
t h is . I w a s t o l d t h a t I w a s n o t b e c a u s e I w a s o n t h e m a n a g e m e n t w h ic h
I d i d n o t w a n t t o b e li e v e h i m . Yo u k n o w – I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t i s
tr u e o r n o t b u t I s a i d t h a t I w o u l d w a n t t o c o n s u l t a l a w y e r to s e e i f t h a t
is tr u e .

I f t h a t is tr u e I w o u l d le a v e t h a t c l a i m b u t a t l e a s t t h e o n e

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
m o n th – t h e v e r y f ir s t m o n t h – I h a v e n o t b e e n p a id . M y s a l a r y s t a r t e d
fr o m th e t i m e I c a m e to S o u th A f r i c a a n d t h e s a l a r y w a s c r e d i t e d in t o
t h e S t a t e B a n k o f I n d ia B r a n c h a t J o h a n n e s b u r g .
g iv e r e g a r d s th e r e a s w e ll .

S o I a m w il li n g to

Th e s a l a r y w a s c r e d i te d fr o m t h e ti m e I

c a m e t o S o u t h A f r i c a b u t t h e o n e m o n t h t h a t I s p e n t i n I n d ia .

I have

n o t b e e n p a id f o r th a t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O h .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A n d I a m n o t c l a i m i n g th a t a s w e l l .

Yo u

k n o w – I w o u l d n o t n o w s a y t h a t I w a n t t h a t m o n e y. I h a v e g i v e n th a t
10

up.

T h e l a r g e r is s u e h e r e i s y o u k n o w – w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r I

r e s ig n e d a n d – y o u k n o w – t h e n t h in k i n g t h a t t h e y c o u l d i n t i m i d a t e t h e
e d i to r b y s e n d i n g b o d y g u a r d s a ft e r th e m a n d c h a s i n g m e a n d a l l t h e
e v e n t s t h a t h a p p e n e d t h a t I h a v e d e s c r i b e d i n th e b o o k . M y h o t e l r o o m
w a s b u r g l e d . I h a d – I h a v e n e v e r b e e n a s s c a r e d a s t h a t i n m y e n ti r e
li fe a n d b e li e v e I h a v e c o v e r e d s e v e r a l w a r s . I h a v e c o v e r e d w a r s a n d
( in d is ti n c t) b u t t h o s e l a s t f e w d a y s a n d h o u r s i n S o u th A f r ic a w e r e t h e
s c a r i e s t in m y l if e . I a c t u a l ly t h o u g h t th a t I w o u ld d i e . T h a t I w o u l d n o t
s e e m y f a m il y a g a i n – y o u k n o w – a n d t h e k i n d o f i n fl u e n c e t h a t t h e y
h a d . Yo u k n o w – o n e d a y a f t e r g iv i n g t h e i n te r v i e w s m y h o te l r o o m w a s
20

b u r g le d . W h e n I w e n t to t h e – t o th e p o li c e t o fi l e a c o m p l a i n t t h e y s a id
t h a t - I to l d t h e m t h a t I a m le a v in g f o r In d i a . T h e y s a i d y o u c a n n o t fi le
the complaint.

Th e h o te l o w n e r d o e s i t a n d t h e h o t e l o w n e r fi l e d t h e

c o m p la i n t a t t h a t ti m e .

Al s o I c o u l d n o t g o t o t h e I n d i a n H i g h

C o m m i s s i o n b e c a u s e Vi r e n d r a G u p t a w a s t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n a t t h a t
ti m e w a s v e r y c lo s e – h a d v e r y c l o s e ti e s w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m i ly. S o I

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
did not know how that would playout.

So here I was all alone

t h o u s a n d s o f m il e s a w a y f r o m m y f a m il y a n d I c o u l d n o t g o to a n y o f m y
c o l l e a g u e s b e c a u s e I w o u l d p u t t h e m i n t o tr o u b l e b e u c s e th e y w e r e
t h e r e w i t h ti e r fa m i li e s a n d t h e ir c h il d r e n a n d th e fa c t t h a t I c o u l d
s o u g h t r e fu g e a t t h e ir h o m e . T h e y w o u ld – t h e y w o u ld b e a s m u c h i n
tr o u b le . S o I w a s o u t t h e r e a n d t h a t i s w h e n I c a l le d m y w i fe a n d t h e n
s h e t o l d m e t h a t w h y d o y o u n o t g o t o th e m e d i a a n d t e l l t h e m th a t y o u r
li fe i s i n d a n g e r.

T h a t w a y a n d t h e n t h e w h o le w o r ld k n o w s t h a t i f

a n y th in g h a p p e n s t o y o u i t is b e c a u s e o f t h e G u p ta s .
10

They would

p r o b a b ly s t a y o ff a n d t h e n s h e b o o k e d m e a t ic k e t o n S o u th A f r ic a n
A ir w a y s a n d e v e n ti ll t h e t i m e I w a s a t th e a ir p o r t a n d I c l e a r e d
i m m i g r a t i o n w i ll I w a s i n t h e a i r I w a s s c a r e d th a t - y o u k n o w – I w i ll
p r o b a b ly b e b r o u g h t b e b a c k a n d – y o u k n o w …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Th is w o u l d h a p p e n .

So of course this

h a p p e n e d a f t e r my r e s i g n a ti o n …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d t h in g s g o t w o r s e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , b e c a u s e I a m ju s t th i n k i n g
20

b e c a u s e h a d y o u t a k e n a d i ff e r e n t a p p r o a c h I a m j u s t tr y i n g to s e e w h a t
e ls e c o u l d t h e y h a v e d o n e t o y o u b e c a u s e t h e m e d ia in d u s tr y w o u ld –
w o u ld h a v e b a c k e d y o u u p b e c a u s e w h a t y o u s a y i n y o u r b o o k i f I m a y
ju s t r e f e r y o u t o th a t p a g e – p a g e 1 6 2 o f y o u r b o o k . Yo u s a y s o m e t h i n g
t h e r e w h ic h I b e li e v e t h a t t h e e n t ir e S o u t h A fr ic a n p u b lic w o u ld h a v e
s u p p o r t e d y o u h a d y o u r e s i g n e d a n d t o l d t h e m t h e t h i n g s th a t y o u s a y

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
in t h e b o o k .

I f y o u c o u ld j u s t r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h – t h o s e fe w

paragraphs on page 162.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : “ I c o n s id e r o b j e c ti v i ty … ”
T h i s is 1 6 2 r ig h t?
CHAIRPERSON :
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : “ … o b j e c ti v i ty t o b e a t t h e c o r e o f
t h e j o u r n a li s m . I w a s u n w i t ti n g l y d r a f te d a n d to b e
p a r t o f a s i n is te r p l a n to b u il d – in m y o p in io n – a
10

p r o p a g a n d a t e l e v is io n s t a ti o n . I q u i t b e c a u s e I d i d
n o t w a n t t o b e p a r t o f th is . I q u it b e c a u s e I d i d n o t
w a n t t o c o m p r o m i s e t h e v a lu e s th a t h a d g u i d e d m e
f o r 2 0 y e a r s a s a jo u r n a l is t .

I w r o te t h i s b o o k t o

in v i te c o n s t a n t p u b l ic s c r u t in y o f t h is c h a n n e l .

I

h o p e t h i s v i g i la n c e w il l f o r c e t h e c h a n n e l t o b e
o b j e c ti v e in t h e c o n te n t i t p r o d u c e s .”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s .

So

th is

th e n

you

f o r m u l a t e d a t t h e p o in t w h e n n o w th i n g s – r e l a ti o n s b e tw e e n y o u h a v e
b e c o m e h o s ti le b u t o t h e r w is e h a d th e y a l l o w e d y o u – I w o u ld i m a g in e –
20

t o ju s t e x i t i n t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h y o u w a n t e d to e x i t y o u w o u ld n o t
h a v e h a d t o w r i te t h e b o o k . A m I c o r r e c t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : To b e v e r y h o n e s t p r o b a b ly n o t b e c a u s e y o u
k n o w w h a t I – w h a t I s a w th e r e w a s t o ta l c o n t e m p t – y o u k n o w because regardless of me being Rajesh Sundaram and I was before
t h e m i n my l a s t m e e t i n g w h e n th e y s e n t th e ir b o d y g u a r d s a f t e r m e I w a s

Page 215 of 225

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
t h e e d i to r o f a n e w s s ta t io n .
those

i n s u l ts

that

were

S o w h a t I th o u g h t w a s t h a t y o u k n o w
being

heaped

at

me

was

not

at

R a j e s h S u n d a r a m b u t a t t h e – th e o ffic e o f a n e d i t o r – a t a j o u r n a l is t .
T h a t is w h a t a n g e r e d m e a n d t h a t c o n t in u e d .

It was not just the

b o d y g u a r d s c h a s in g m e o u t b u t th e y w e r e c o n s t a n t ly tr y i n g t o p la y m i n d
g a m e s w i th m e .

T h e y w e r e c o n s ta n tl y – y o u k n o w – th e r e w a s a n

a tt e m p t t o b u r g l e my h o t e l r o o m . S o t h a t is w h a t r e a l ly – y o u k n o w –
m a d e m e t h i n k a t t h a t t i m e t h a t I – y o u k n o w – i t is n o t b e c a u s e th e y
in s u lt e d m e o r b e c a u s e t h e y c h a s e d m e o u t ( in d is ti n c t) b u t b e c a u s e o f
10

t h e – o f t h e k i n d o f m i n d - s e t t h a t t h in k s j o u r n a l is t o r a n e d i t o r i s
s o m e b o d y th a t – t h a t y o u c a n h a v e y o u r b o d y g u a r d s c h a s e a n d h a v e
t h e ir h o u s e b u r g l e d a n d i n ti m i d a te d . S o I – I w r o t e t h i s b o o k b e c a u s e –
y o u k n o w – t h a t is w h e n I d e c i d e d th a t t h i s s h o u ld c o m e o u t i n fr o n t o f
t h e S o u th A f r i c a n p u b l ic a ll t h e s e d e t a i ls s h o u l d b e k n o w n b y t h e n a s
w e ll – y o u k n o w.

I t i s n o t ju s t o k a y f o r m e to n o t b e h a p p y w it h th e

s i tu a ti o n n o t b e h a p p y w it h a l l t h e c o m p r o m is e s t h a t a r e h a p p e n i n g a n d
ju s t q u i t a n d m o v e o u t b u t i t i s a ls o i m p o r t a n t f o r m e t o t e ll t h a t s t o r y
s o th a t a l a r g e a u d i e n c e k n o w s a b o u t t h is a n d l ik e I s a i d t h e r e i s – i f –
if - w e k n o w t h a t A N N 7 w a s m a d e – y o u k n o w – th is i s th e b a c k g r o u n d
20

w h ic h y o u k n o w t h e c h a n n e l c a m e in t o e x is t e n c e .

There was to be a

c o n s t a n t p u b lic v i g i l a n c e t h a t – y o u k n o w – fo r a n y c o n te n t th a t t h e y
p u t o u t t h e r e s h o u ld b e c o n s t a n t s c r u t i n y t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e y d id n o t
v io l a t e a n y t h in g s t h a t I h a v e w r i t te n a b o u t in t h is b o o k b e c a u s e t h e
p e o p l e o f S o u t h A f r ic a n e e d t o k n o w t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s a n d th e r e a s o n s
why the station was set up.

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . M r C h a ir m a n
m a y b e to ju s t c l o s e o ff t h e r e s i g n a ti o n is s u e b e c a u s e t h e r e is a l e t te r
t h a t i s r e f e r r e d – th a t is a t ta c h e d t o th e b u n d l e – E X H I B I T C C 1 A a n d B .
I a m s u r e y o u a r e f a m ili a r w it h t h a t le t t e r M r S u n d a r a m . C o u l d y o u j u s t
t u r n t o p a g e 2 9 ? T h a t is a l e tt e r fr o m t h e l a w y e r s o f I n fi n i ty M e d ia .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: 29?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : P a g e 2 9 . H a v e y o u f o u n d i t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

Thank you.

In paragraph 2 of

t h a t l e t t e r t h e y a r e a c t u a l ly q u o t in g fr o m y o u r – fr o m y o u r le t t e r o f
r e s ig n a ti o n . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d th e n t h e y w e r e s a y i n g t h a t
n o w y o u w e r e th e c a u s e o f w h a t e v e r h ic c u p s w e r e t h e r e a t A N N 7 a n d
t h e y in t e n d e d t o s e r v e y o u w i t h d o c u m e n ts s u p p o s in g – m a y b e
s u m m o n s t o c la i m d a m a g e s fr o m y o u .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e l l I r e s p o n d e d t o t h i s n o tic e th a t I g o t o r
a n e m a i l a n d I to l d t h e m t h a t I w o u l d g o a h e a d – y o u k n o w – th e y w e r e
b a s ic a lly tr y i n g t o t e l l m e n o t t o ta lk to t h e m e d i a o r t o i n t e r a c t w i t h t h e

20

p u b lic in a n y w a y a n d I w r o te b a c k in a n e m a il a n d I to ld t h e m th a t I w il l
c o n ti n u e t o d o t h a t .

P l e a s e g o a h e a d fil e w h a t e v e r – t a k e w h a te v e r

le g a l a c ti o n y o u h a v e t o t a k e a g a i n s t m e a n d I w o u l d c o m e t o S o u t h
A fr ic a t o d e f e n d m y s e l f b e c a u s e I a m c o n v in c e d a b o u t – y o u k n o w – t h e
in t e r v ie w s t h a t I a m g iv in g i n t h e m e d ia a r e b a s e d o n fa c ts t h a t I k n o w
a n d I w il l – I s t a n d b y t h e m . S o t h is le t t e r c a m e t o m e i n 2 0 1 3 . I t i s

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
2 0 1 9 n o w. I h a v e n o t h e a r d b a c k f r o m t h e la w y e r s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

So that is the background to this.

Of

c o u r s e – y o u k n o w – I h a v e e x p l a i n e d t h e y – y o u k n o w – I w r o te t h is – I
d o a g r e e t h a t I d i d w r i te th is a n d - a n d l ik e I s a i d t h e r e w e r e t w o
a s p e c ts fo r s e t ti n g u p th e s t a ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I t w a s w o r k in g w i t h th e w o n d e r fu l t e a m a n d
a ls o w i t h t h e ( i n d is ti n c t ) m a n a g e m e n t t e a m w h i c h w a s t h e r e w h i c h w a s
10

n o t t h e b e s t t h r e e y e a r s – t h r e e m o n th s o f m y l i fe b u t w o r k in g w i t h a
p a s s i o n a t e t e a m i n s e t ti n g u p a n d d o in g t h e i m p o s s i b l e - y o u k n o w.
S e t ti n g u p a s t a ti o n i n th r e e m o n th s is s o m e t h i n g w h ic h is u n h e a r d o f
and which was done here and that was not because of me.

It was

d e f in i te ly n o t b e c a u s e o f t h e G u p t a s a n d N a z e e m H o w a .

It was

b e c a u s e o f th e p a s s i o n a n d t h e h a r d w o r k a n d t h e l o n g h o u r s th e
s w e a t , b l o o d a n d t o il o f t h e – o f t h e s t a ff w h o a r e c o m i n g h e r e . M o s t o f
w h o m - fo r w h o m i t w a s th e f ir s t j o b a n d m o s t o f w h o m g a v e e v e r y th i n g
t h a t t h e y h a d t o la u n c h th e s t a ti o n a n d I d o n o t t h i n k t h e y h a v e
r e c e i v e d a s i n g le w o r d o f th a n k y o u fr o m a n y b o d y – y o u k n o w. S o o f
20

c o u r s e a t t h i s t i m e I w o u l d w a n t t o p la c e o n r e c o r d t h e h a r d w o r k t h a t
t h e y p u t i n t h e r e t o l a u n c h t h e s t a ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

M r C h a ir w e w il l b e m o v in g o n t o n e w a r e a s t o m o r r o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .

Page 218 of 225

Thank you

03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e w e a d j o u r n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t t h a t d u r i n g t h e t i m e w h e n
y o u w e r e w o r k i n g f o r th e s t a ti o n y o u o r l e t m e p u t i t t h is w a y. A t s o m e
s t a g e y o u s e e m e d t o s a y y o u h a d r a id e d y o u r is s u e s w i th t h e G u p t a
b r o t h e r s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t h i n g s th a t y o u w e r e u n h a p p y a b o u t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t h a d b e e n t h e ir r e s p o n s e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:
a b u s e o f s t a ff .

Yo u k n o w I r e m e m b e r li k e f o r i n s t a n c e t h e

T h e r e is t h is o n e t i m e w h e n h e a c tu a lly p h y s ic a lly

a s s a u l t e d o n e o f t h e e m p l o y e e s a n d I to o k h i m a s i d e a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t
t h is is n o t a c c e p t a b l e . Yo u k n o w y o u a r e u n d e r m in i n g t h e a u t h o r it y o f
t h e m a n a g e r s h e r e i f y o u g o a n d d o t h is . I f y o u h a v e a n y is s u e s le t u s
d o i t i n a w a y t h i n g s s h o u l d b e d o n e in t h e o ff ic e – y o u k n o w. O n e is
t h a t h e d i d n o t h a v e a n y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e b r o a d c a s t. Fo r in s ta n c e
if t h e r e w a s a b u g in t h e s y s t e m a n d t h e t e l e p r o m p t e r h e t h o u g h t t h a t i t
was sabotage.
20

T h a t s o m e b o d y w a s tr y in g t o s a b o ta g e h is n e w s

b u ll e ti n s o r i f th e r e i s – y o u k n o w – t h e p l a y o u t s y s te m s u d d e n ly h a d a
g l it c h . H e w o u ld t h i n k i t i s th e g u y w h o is s i tt i n g a n d d o i n g t h e p l a y o u t
– y o u k n o w w h o w a s b e i n g p a id b y h i s r i v a l s to d o t h a t. H e w o u l d t o
a n d a b u s e th e m – y o u k n o w – c a l l t h e m th in g s l ik e m o n k e y s a n d th in g s
lik e th a t . S o I w o u l d t a k e h i m a s id e a n d s a y y o u c a n n o t d o t h a t – y o u
k n o w - b e c a u s e y o u d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h a t is h a p p e n i n g h e r e . S o t h e n

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
h e w o u l d s a y o h I k n o w I s h o u ld n o t b e d o i n g th a t b u t I a m d i a b e ti c –
y o u k n o w.

S o s o m e ti m e s w h e n I h a v e lo w s u g a r o r h i g h s u g a r t h e s e

things happen.

I a m s o r r y a b o u t it a n d t h e n e x t d a y t h e s a m e t h in g

w o u ld h a p p e n – y o u k n o w. H e w o u l d g o o u t a n d s c r e a m a t s o m e b o d y
o r a ls o t h i n g s lik e – y o u k n o w – h e c o u l d p e r c h h i m s e l f o n t h e
m e z z a n in e fl o o r a n d h e w o u ld k e e p l o o k i n g a t w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g . W h o
is d o in g w h a t w o r k w i th o u t k n o w i n g – f o r i n s t a n c e y o u k n o w t h e r e w a s a
p e r s o n w h o w a s o n th e o u tp u t d e s k c o n s t a n t ly m a k i n g ( i n d is ti n c t) f o r
t h e b u l l e t i n h a l f h o u r a f t e r h a l f h o u r, h o u r a f t e r t h e h o u r a n d h e w a s
10

g l u e d t o h is c h a i r b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h a t h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e d o in g
a n d t h a t is a v e r y s t r e s s f u l j o b a n d h e w o u l d b e s it t in g f r o m t h e r e n o t
k n o w i n g w h a t i t w a s h e w o u l d c a ll m e a n d s a y w h a t is th a t g u y d o in g
t h e r e . I s a i d h e is m a k in g ( i n d i s t i n c t) . H e is t h e g u y w h o i s t h e o u t p u t
h e a d a n d y o u k n o w h e h a s g o t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t a ll th e s to r i e s a r e
f a c tu a lly c o r r e c t , t h e s e q u e n t i a l o r d e r is o k a y a n d y o u k n o w i t h a s a ll
t h e e le m e n t s l ik e t h e – th e t a g s a n d a ll th e f a c to r s t h e r e . S o h o w d o I
k n o w t h a t h e is w o r k in g a n d n o t w a t c h i n g p o r n s i t e b e c a u s e h e h a s n o t
m o v e d fr o m t h e c h a ir. S o – y o u k n o w – a s a p r o f e s s i o n a l y o u d o n o t
w a n t to s a y t o s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t y o u k n o w b e c a u s e i t w a s s o m e b o d y

20

w h o h a d n o u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g b u t y o u k n o w w a n t in g
t o i n t e r f e r e i n m ic r o m a n a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d m a k i n g s u r e t h a t h e p r e v a il e d .
CHAIRPERSON :

H m , a n d a b o u t y o u r v i e w s a b o u t t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f

M r Zu m a d id y o u a r ti c u l a t e y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t h is – t h e r o le h e w a s

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p l a y in g ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: No, I did ask a few questions to …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A n d p e o p le w h o w e r e p a r t o f t h e m a r k e t in g
t e a m . I d o n o t w a n t to n a m e t h e p e r s o n b e c a u s e I c o u l d g e t h i m i n t o
tr o u b le b u t i t w a s a w e l l - e s ta b l is h e d fa c t t h a t t h a t w a s t h e o w n e r s h ip
baton.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : As a j o u r n a lis t I k n o w t h a t i f – t h a t w a s t h e
10

d e c is i o n I s h o u ld h a v e t a k e n b e f o r e I j o in e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I f I h a d k n o w n t h e r e w a s a c o n fl ic t o f

in t e r e s t I w o u l d n o t h a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B u t a f t e r I c o m e i n a s j o u r n a lis t jo in a s a n
e d i to r i t is n o t m y b u s i n e s s to s a y t h e c h a n c e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : I t w a s f o r m e t o q u i t w h ic h i s w h a t I d i d .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM: So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th e n in y o u r b o o k I w a s l o o k in g f o r th is i n
y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d i t l o o k s lik e I s a w it in y o u r b o o k a t p a g e 8 5
s o m e w h e r e in t h e m i d d l e y o u w r i t e :
“ At u l … ”
T h i s is i n t h e c o n t e x t o f th e b r e a k f a s t m e e ti n g s a n d S A B C a n d t h e N e w

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
Age. I see you write:
“ At u l b o a s t e d t o m e o n c e t h a t h e c o u l d g e t a n y
N a t io n a l o r Pr o v i n c i a l M i n i s te r h e w a n t e d f o r t h e
s h o w.”
Yo u s e e t h a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Do

you

c o n fir m

w h e th e r

that

is

indeed

what

Mr Atul Gupta said to you?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s , y e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON :
in t e r e s ti n g

a ls o

Ye s .

I t is – t h a t p a r t o f w h a t y o u s a y i s q u it e

because

Mr Themba Mashego

–

I

m e n t io n e d

M r T h e m b a M a s h e g o e a r l i e r to y o u . M r T h e m b a M a s h e g o i f I r e c a l l h is
e v i d e n c e c o r r e c tl y te s ti fi e d b e f o r e m e l a s t y e a r a n d i f I r e m e m b e r
c o r r e c t ly a ls o s a i d s o m e t h in g to m o r e o r l e s s t h e s a m e e ffe c t a s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s s a i d b y M r A j a y G u p t a to h i m t h a t i f th e r e w a s a n y
M i n is t e r w h o w a s n o t c o o p e r a ti n g a n d t h is w a s in th is c o n t e x t o f a c c o r d i n g to M r M a s h e g o – M r A ja y G u p ta w a n t in g M r M a s h e g o a s
D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f G C I S t o “ c o o p e r a t e ” w i t h r e g a r d to t h e G u p t a
b r o t h e r s o r t h e ir b u s i n e s s e s g e t ti n g a c e r t a i n s h a r e o f t h e a d v e r ti s i n g
20

r e v e n u e a n d M r M a s h e g o – i f I r e c a ll h is e v i d e n c e – s a i d t h a t
M r A j a y G u p t a s a i d th a t i f th e r e w a s a n y M in is t e r w h o w a s n o t
c o o p e r a ti n g h e s h o u ld t e l l h i m i n fa c t w h ic h o n e a n d – I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r t h e w o r d s t h a t h e u s e d – b u t w h a te v e r w o r d s h e u s e d
a c c o r d i n g t o M r M a s h e g o – c o n v e y e d t h e i m p r e s s io n to m e t h a t
M r A j a y G u p t a w a s s a y i n g th a t th e y w o u l d r e p o r t h i m t o fo r m e r

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P r e s i d e n t Z u m a o r t h e y w o u l d s a y w h a t t o d o w i t h a M in is t e r w h o w a s
n o t c o o p e r a ti n g . S o h e r e y o u h a v e y o u h a v e …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O h y e s , b e c a u s e a ls o m y in tr o d u c ti o n l ik e i t
w i ll b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n M r S u n d a r a m , h a n g o n h a n g o n . Yo u h a v e i n
y o u r b o o k a s t a t e m e n t w h ic h s e e m s v e r y s i m il a r w h ic h s e e ms t o
r e s o n a t e w i t h w h a t M r M a s h e g o s a id n a m e ly th a t – b u t n o w th is w a s
M r A t u l G u p t a n o t M r A j a y G u p t a s a y i n g t o y o u fo r t h o s e b r e a k f a s t
s h o w s o r b r i e fi n g s t h e y c o u ld - h e c o u ld - g e t a n y N a ti o n a l M i n i s te r o r
10

P r o v i n c ia l M in is t e r t h a t h e w a n te d to t h e s h o w.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A ls o y o u k n o w I w a s t o l d th a t th e s e

m e e ti n g s w e r e i n s a n e ly p r o fi t a b l e .

Th a t w a s t h e w o r d N a z e e m H o w a

w o u ld u s e b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t j u s t w h e n th e M i n i s t e r c a m e t h a t i t w a s –
y o u k n o w – th e y w o u ld s e ll th e ta b l e s a r o u n d i t .

The cost for the

b r o a d c a s t w a s o f c o u r s e w it h th e S A B C a n d t h e M i n i s t e r s w o u l d c o m e
a n d s o m e ti m e s t h e Mi n is te r s w o u l d a ls o b e ( i n d is t in c t ) t o p a y in g fo r t h e
v e n u e a n d t h e m e a l t h a t w a s s e r v e d a s w e ll .
20

S o c l e a r l y it w a s p u r e

g r e e d y f o r th e G u p ta s o r t h e N e w A g e b e c a u s e th e y d i d n o t h a v e t o
spend for the broadcast. They did not have to spend for the venue in
s o m e c a s e s a n d w h a t e v e r – y o u k n o w – w h a t e v e r ta b le s w e r e s o l d a t
t h o s e m e e t in g s w a s a p u r e p r o fi t t h a t w e n t in t o ( i n d is t in c t ) .

I s t il l

r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s o n e ti m e w h e n t h e r e w a s o n e o f t h e s e m e e t in g s
t h a t w a s s c h e d u l e d i n C a p e To w n a n d I w a s a s k e d t o g o w i th t h e m t o

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03 JUNE 2019 – DAY 104
C a p e To w n f o r th a t m e e t i n g a n d t h e y a c t u a l ly fl e w i n a p r i v a t e j e t. S o I
ju s t a s k e d N a z e e m a b o u t t h i s .

Yo u k n o w – d o y o u a c t u a l ly e n o u g h

m o n e y t o fly d o w n ? W h y d o y o u n o t fl y c o m m e r c ia l b e c a u s e w o u l d th a t
not make more business sense.

So he said no.

Th is i s i n s a n e ly

p r o f i ta b le . W e a r e g o in g to C a p e To w n . I d o n o t k n o w t h e m e m b e r t h e
M i n is t e r w h o w a s t h e r e b u t t h e M in is tr y h a d p a i d f o r t h e v e n u e . T h e y
h a d e v e n g o t t h e s t a k e h o ld e r s to b u y ti c k e ts a n d c o m e a n d s e e t h i s –
t o b e s e a te d th e r e . S o a ll o f t h a t w a s h a p p e n in g . S o i t w a s lik e I s a id
in m o s t c a s e s it w a s p u r e g r e e d y fo r t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s .
10

Th e y w e r e

not doing anything. They were just – and it was most people who would
c o m e a n d b u y t h e c h a i r s t h e r e b e c a u s e th a t w a s a n o p p o r t u n i ty to
n e t w o r k w i t h t h e M in is t e r a n d t h e h ig h b u r e a u c r a ts w h o c a m e w i t h th e m
a n d t h a t w a s w h a t w a s b e i n g s o l d a n d - y o u k n o w – a n d it w a s
b r o a d c a s t o n S A B C b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a n o t h e r s e l li n g p o i n t f o r t h e – f o r
t h e G u p t a s th e r e . S o th is i s s o m e t h in g t h a t th e y o p e n l y a d m it t e d a n d
w h e n e v e r t h e r e w e r e p r o b le m s t h a t t h e m a r k e ti n g t e a m h a d in g e t t in g
a n y o f th e M i n is t e r s t h a t w o u l d b e r e p o r t e d i n t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e
M e e ti n g a n d t h e n A t u l G u p t a w o u l d m a k e a n o t e o f it a n d it w a s t a k e n
u p d u r i n g t h e s e m e e t i n g s w it h P r e s i d e n t Z u m a .

20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm, thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e w ill – w e w il l a d j o u r n a t th is s t a g e a n d t h e n
w e w i ll s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k t o m o r r o w ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th e r e a n o th e r w i t n e s s t h a t … ?

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A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th e r e is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h e r e is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e w i ll a d j o u r n a t t h i s s ta g e a n d t o m o r r o w w e w i ll

s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k . W e a d j o u r n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
10

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S

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