C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 3 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 7 6

20

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E 3 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

afternoon

Ms

Gcabashe,

good

afternoon

e v e r y b o d y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : G o o d a f te r n o o n D C J
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . G o o d a f te r n o o n M r T h a b e th e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ar e y o u r e a d y M s G c a b a s h e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s , y e s w e a r e C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s o k a y.

I t h i n k i n t h e li g h t o f t h e l a p s e o f t i m e

a n o t h e r o a th m u s t b e a d m in is t e r e d . P l e a s e a d m i n is te r t h e o a t h b e f o r e
we start?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : M b a n a P e te r T h a b e t h e .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
20

tr u th ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o h e lp m e G o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 2 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

C h a ir m a n w it h y o u r l e a v e m i g h t I j u s t g iv e

you a very short roadmap.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

C o v e r i n g t h e a r e a s th a t w e w i ll d e a li n g w i t h

t o d a y w e h o p e w e c a n fi n i s h b y t o m o r r o w.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

C h a i r m a n in a b o u t e a r ly S e p t e m b e r t h e

c o m m i s s io n w a s a b l e t o s o u r c e a s i g n i fic a n t a m o u n t o f in f o r m a ti o n f r o m
t h e N PA a s y o u h a d a s k e d u s to tr y a n d d o . O u r i n v e s t ig a t o r s g o t o n t o
10

it . W e h a v e i n d e e d i n c l u d e d t h o s e d o c u m e n t s t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t t o M r
T h a b e th e i n t h e R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e a n d w ill r e fe r y o u t o t h e m a t t h e
r e l e v a n t ti m e .

I n c l u d e d i n t h i s d o c u m e n t a t i o n is th e a ff id a v i t o f M r

T h a b e th e w h ic h h e d e p o s e d t o in 2 0 1 7 u n d e r P a r k R o a d C a s e n u m b e r
2 0 0 / 0 7 0 1 /2 0 1 7 .

T h a t a ffi d a v i t h a s a l w a y s b e e n p a r t o f o u r b u n d le s

C h a ir m a n . W h a t w a s mi s s in g w e r e th e a n n e x u r e s a n d w e w e r e h a v i n g
a l i tt l e o f d i ff ic u l ty a t s o m e p o i n t i n d e a li n g w i t h t h o s e a n n e x u r e s
b e c a u s e a s y o u i n d ic a te d w i t h o u t t h e a n n e x u r e s t h e e v id e n c e i ts e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p i c tu r e w a s n o t c o m p l e te .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Ja
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

C r e a t e s a f e w d i ff ic u l ti e s .

So we – we now

h a v e m o s t o f t h o s e a n n e x u r e s C h a ir m a n s o w e w i ll b e t a k i n g Mr
T h a b e th e th r o u g h t h o s e j u s t s o h e g iv e s c o n t e x t t o w h a t h e h a s s a id in
h is a ff id a v i ts .

C h a ir m a n in li g h t o f t h a t m i g h t I a s k l e a v e to h a n d u p

t w o d o c u m e n ts – t w o f il e s .

Th e f ir s t o n e i s E x h ib i t H H 1 0 B i t i s Mr

Page 3 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
T h a b e th e ’s a ffi d a v i t b u t t h is r e a l ly c o n s i s ts o f a l l th o s e a n n e x u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: That we have been able to source.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

S o th e r e a r e j u s t a n n e x u r e s t h e r e n o t h i n g

e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n th e n t h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th e r e a n i n d ic a ti o n h e r e – o h t h e a ff id a v i t is t h e r e
10

a s w e ll ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

T h e a ffi d a v i t C h a ir m a n is i n F il e A w e h a v e

h a d it a ll a l o n g . Yo u m a y e v e n h a v e s c r ib b l e d n o te s o n i t I r e a l ly a m n o t
sure. It is the very last …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A ff i d a v i t i n – in F il e A . S o y o u n o w h a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: For…
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i n o th e r w o r d s w h a t I h a v e h e r e is t h e a ff id a v i t

t h a t w e h a v e a lw a y s h a d b u t w e d i d n o t h a v e a n n e x u r e s .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o w w e a ls o h a v e a n n e x u r e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON:
concerned?

I t is t h e c o m p l e t e s e t a s f a r a s th a t a ffi d a v it i s

Maybe there might be some annexures that you have not

b e e n a b le t o g e t?

Page 4 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n th e r e a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n n e x u r e s w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o g e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t m o s t a r e h e r e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I w i ll b e in d ic a t i n g – S ir ?
CHAIRPERSON: But most are here?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M o s t a r e th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e n C h a ir m a n t h e s e c o n d fi l e I w o u l d l ik e t o
10

h a n d u p a n d a s k y o u t o a d mi t to th e r e c o r d is a n a d d i t io n a l R e f e r e n c e
bundle.

Th e d o c u m e n ts in t h is R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e la r g e l y c o m e f r o m

d o c u m e n t a ti o n w e s o u r c e d fr o m a n o t h e r w i t n e s s ’ b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Yo u w i ll b e h e a r i n g h e r e v id e n c e i n d u e

course.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: But because she has not appeared before you
yet.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

W e t h o u g h t i t p r u d e n t to u s e – s h e a c tu a l ly

h a d m o r e i n f o r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n Mr T h a b a t h e w a s a b l e t o s o u r c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : H e h a s b e e n s tr u g g li n g t o g e t in f o r m a ti o n l .

Page 5 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o w i t h y o u r l e a v e C h a ir w e h a v e c a ll e d t h is
E x h i b i t H H R e f e r e n c e b u n d le F f o r Fr e d d y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h is o n e t h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y h a n d e d u p y o u

w o u ld lik e to b e a d m i t te d a s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: The one I…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex h ib i t H H 1 0 B ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C o r r e c t S ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a i n in g M r T h a b e t h e ’s

a ffi d a v i t o f 1 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 w i th a n n e x u r e s th e r e to w i ll b e a d m i tt e d a s
E x h i b i t H H 1 0 B . A n d t h e n t h is o n e . D o y o u w a n t t o k e e p i t a s E x h i b it
H H w it h o u t a n y n u m b e r ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

C h a i r m a n w i th t h e R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e s w e

h a v e n o t g iv e n t h e m n u m b e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e p a s t?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: In the past.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I f I m i g h t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n a s s is t . W e h a v e i n fa c t j u s t g i v e n
t h e m l o w e r c a s e le t t e r s o f t h e a lp h a b e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e f e r e n c e . Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : To i d e n ti f y t h a t p a r ti c u la r f il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : To m a k e i t e a s y t o i d e n ti f y.

Page 6 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:
d o c u m e n ts

O k a y.

s t a r t in g

w i th

T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e t h a t h a s g o t v a r i o u s
Fr e e

State

L e g is la t u r e

c o p ie s ,

member

tr a n s l a to r s – s u r e ly it is m a r k e d – i t i s r e fl e c t e d a s A p p r o p r i a ti o n Bi ll .
S o th e fil e – t h e le v e r a r c h fi le c o n ta in i n g v a r i o u s d o c u m e n ts s ta r t i n g
w i t h A p p r o p r i a ti o n B il l – a n A p p r o p r i a ti o n B il l w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t H H
R e f e r e n c e b u n d le F. Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n t h e r e i s o n e m o r e R e f e r e n c e b u n d le
that ought to be with you but is not we have found.

I t i s R e fe r e n c e

b u n d l e E w h ic h c o m e s ju s t b e fo r e t h e o n e y o u h a v e j u s t a d m i t t e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

M y r e c o ll e c t i o n is t h a t w e h a d – y o u h a d

a d m i t t e d i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Last time we were here at some point.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o o n e o f th e i n v e s ti g a to r s h a s g o n e a c r o s s
t h e r o a d t o m a k e s u r e y o u – y o u g e t y o u r c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:
20

A s f a r a s I k n o w C h a ir m a n w e w il l n o t b e

r e fe r r i n g t o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C e r ta i n ly n o t in t h e f ir s t h o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M i g h t I p r o c e e d C h a ir m a n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .

Page 7 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Thank you.

M r T h a b e t h e g o o d a f te r n o o n

a g a in .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Good afternoon.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I a m h o p in g to t h e d o t h e f o ll o w i n g t o t r y a n d
…
CHAIRPERSON:

O h I th in k w e w e r e g o in g t o l e t h is c o u n s e l p la c e

h i m s e l f o n r e c o r d fir s t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : O h y e s in d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

E s p e c ia lly b e c a u s e t h e r e h a s n o w b e e n a c h a n g e o f

le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . G o o d a ft e r n o o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U TH E L E Z I :

I a m N q a b a y e th u B u th e l e z i o n

in s t r u c t i o n fr o m L u g is a n i M a n ts h a A t t o r n e y s n o w r e p r e s e n t i n g M r
T h a b e th e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:
20

M r T h a b e t h a I w a s j u s t i n d ic a ti n g t h a t t h e

fir s t th in g I a m p r o b a b ly g o i n g t o d o i s ju s t p u t t h e v e r s i o n o f M r
M o s e n b e n z i Zw a n e b e fo r e y o u . Th e c o m m is s io n h a s n o w r e c e iv e d h i s k
s w o r n s t a t e m e n t a n d I t h i n k a t s o m e p o i n t th e C h a ir m a n m a y e le c t to
a s k h i m t o c o m e a n d g iv e o r a l e v i d e n c e . B u t b e c a u s e w e d o n o t k n o w
w h e n t h a t m i g h t b e I j u s t w a n t t o s u r e th a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d h is v e r s i o n
e s p e c i a l ly

in

relation

to

your

roles

and

Page 8 of 115

r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s

as

he

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
u n d e r s t o o d th e m a n d s e t t h e m o u t i n h is v e r s i o n . S o I w il l b e p u t ti n g
t h a t t o y o u . I w i ll j u s t s t a r t w i t h th a t to g e t i t o u t o f t h e w a y. T h a t w il l
t h e n b e fo ll o w e d b y t h e a n n e x u r e s t h a t w e w e r e m is s in g fr o m th e 2 0 1 7
a ffi d a v i t .

W e w il l d e a l w i t h th o s e v e r y q u ic k ly.

Yo u w i ll j u s t g iv e

c o n te n t to t h e m n o w th a t y o u h a v e th e m b e fo r e y o u .
in d e e d b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u .

Those have

A f t e r t h a t p o r t io n w e w il l d e a l w i th

o u t s t a n d i n g m a t t e r s a r is in g fr o m t h e q u e s ti o n s w e h a d a s k e d y o u
e a r l ie r o n a n d a ls o j u s t s e e k in g c l a r i ty o n o n e o r t w o a s p e c ts . A n d w e
h o p e t o c o m p le t e th is e n t ir e e x e r c is e b y to m o r r o w in g o i n g t h r o u g h
10

s o m e o f t h e a n n u a l f i n a n c ia l r e p o r ts .

G o in g t h r o u g h t h e m o n th ly a n d

q u a r t e r l y s t a t e m e n ts t h a t E s ti n a p r e s e n te d t o y o u e t c e t e r a . S o t h a t is
t h e id e a w e h o p in g to f in is h w i th t h a t s e c t io n .

There are one or two

o th e r th in g s w e h a d i n d i c a t e d t o y o u th a t t h e r e a r e m e d i a r e p o r ts w e
w i ll b e p u t t in g t o y o u e t c e t e r a . B u t t h o s e a r e v e r y s h o r t q u e s ti o n s t h a t
I k n i t t e d in t o w h a t w e w il l b e a s k in g y o u . A r e y o u h a p p y w i th t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a I a m – th e o n ly t h i n g I w a n te d to
c h e c k C h a ir. I h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d t h e …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a ffi d a v it ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e a ffi d a v i t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. W e l l I a m s u r e y o u w i ll m a k e i t a v a i l a b le t o
him ahead of him having to deal with it.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

C h a ir m a n I – i f th a t is y o u r r u l in g th a t is in

order but we do not…

Page 9 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I a m n o t m a k i n g a r u l in g . I a m j u s t s a y i n g I a m

s u r e th a t y o u d o n o t i n te n d t o a m b u s h h i m .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: C h a i r m a n I – I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h a t w h e n
a n i m p l ic a te d p a r t y g iv e s u s a v e r s i o n th a t w e g i v e t h a t v e r s i o n t o th e
n e x t i m p lic a t e d p a r ty. T h a t is r e a l ly h o w w e a r e s i tt i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M r M o s e n b e n z i Z w a n e is a n i m p lic a t e d p a r ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. N o , n o I th i n k w h a t w e h a v e b e e n d o in g
is w h e n a w i t n e s s – a w i t n e s s a s o p p o s e d – I m e a n t h e y a r e a ll w i t n e s s
10

b u t a w i t n e s s a s d is t in c t f r o m a n i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n h a s i m p l ic a te d
s o m e b o d y w h e n t h a t p e r s o n h a s g iv e n t h e c o m m i s s io n a v e r s io n t h e n
t h a t a ffi d a v i t w o u ld b e g i v e n t o – to h i m – t o th e w i t n e s s .

So I think

e ffe c tiv e l y h e is s a y in g h e w o u l d e x p e c t t o b e f u r n i s h e d w it h a c o p y. I
t h i n k w h a t s h o u ld h a p p e n is h is c o u n s e l a n d y o u r s e l f w il l t a lk a n d t h e n
w e w il l ta k e t h i n g s fr o m t h e r e . Is t h a t – i n o t h e r w o r d s i f t h e y w a n t to
p u t a r e q u e s t th e y f ir s t d is c u s s w i t h y o u a n d t h e r e m a y b e n o n e e d f o r
a n y r u l in g . B u t i f t h e r e is a p r o b le m t h e n i t c a n c o m e t o m e . I s th a t
fi n e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:
20

N o t r e a lly C h a i r ma n b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t I

w a s g o i n g to s t a r t w i t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t if t h i s is …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okayh.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

B e c a u s e i t is ju s t a n o t h e r w i t n e s s w h o is

g o i n g t o s a y s o m e th i n g a b o u t h i m .

Page 10 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: A n d I t h o u g h t t h a t h e s h o u l d a t l e a s t h a v e th e
b e n e fi t o f h e a r i n g t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

B e f o r e w e g o b a c k to w h e r e w e w e r e

e s s e n ti a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h e n w e s t o p p e d l a s t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

But this is why I say I am in your hands

C h a ir m a n I a m g u i d e d b y y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o I s e e h is c o u n s e l s e e m s to w a n t t o s a y

s o m e t h i n g a n d m a y b e le t m e h e a r w h a t h e h a s t o s a y. I t m a y o r m a y
n o t b e n e c e s s a r y t o a d jo u r n fo r a fe w m i n u t e s to r e s o l v e t h e is s u e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a l e t m e h e a r w h a t h e h a s to s a y.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I t i s – it is I t h in k
it i s a s i m il a r p r o b l e m t h a t k e e p s a r is i n g a t t h e c o m m i s s io n w h e r e a
w i t n e s s i s s e r v e d w it h a R u l e 3 .3 N o t ic e a n d a ft e r h a v i n g b e e n s e r v e d
20

w i t h th is R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e is t h e n e x p e c te d t o r e s p o n d t o th e c o n te n ts o r
t h e p a r a g r a p h s i n t h e i m p l ic a t i n g s t a t e m e n t th a t t h e r e i s .

C o n f u s io n

s o m e w h a t e x i s ts b e t w e e n o u r s e l v e s a s t o s a y a r e w e h e r e t o a n s w e r to
a l le g a ti o n s t h a t a r e c o n t a in e d i n t h e s ta t e m e n t s o f o t h e r w i t n e s s e s o r
a r e w e h e r e o n t h e s t r e n g th o f o u r o w n i n d e p e n d e n t s t a t e m e n t ? A n d i t
is o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d o u r r e q u e s t th a t i f Mr T h a b e t h e is e x p e c t e d t o

Page 11 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
t e s ti fy o r g i v e a n s w e r s w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f a n o t h e r w i tn e s s
t h a t m a y h a v e p o te n ti a lly e v e n i m p li c a t e d h i m s e l f t h a t h e b e g iv e n
a m p l e ti m e t o c o n s id e r t h a t s o t h a t w e d o n o t s t a l l t h e c o m m i s s i o n
w h e n h e is u n a b le to p r o v i d e a n s w e r s o r g iv e c o n t e x t t o q u e s ti o n s t h a t
a r e n o t i n te n d e d to a m b u s h h i m in o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e l l I u s e th e t e r m a m b u s h .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I a c c e p t i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t m ig h t n o t b e a p p r o p r i a t e .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I t m i g h t n o t b e a p p r o p r i a te .

I th in k w h a t w e s h o u ld

d o is – I s h o u ld p r o b a b ly a d j o u r n f o r s o m e t h i n g lik e fiv e to t e n m i n u t e s .
G iv e b o t h s i d e s a c h a n c e t o ta lk a b o u t – a b o u t t h e i s s u e a n d t h e n w h e n
I c o m e b a c k i f i t is r e s o l v e d i t is r e s o l v e d – i f I h a v e t o m a k e a n y
d e c is i o n w e c a n ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e . O r i f a d e c is i o n m u s t b e m a d e a t
a n o t h e r ti m e th e n t h a t w o u l d b e f in e .

I t h i n k t h e – I t h i n k th e – th e

d i ff e r e n c e r e a l ly is h e r e t h a t c e r t a i n l y M s G c a b a s h e w a n ts t o p u t t o M r
T h a b e th e w h a t e v e r v e r s io n M r Z w a n e h a s s o th a t h e c a n c o m m e n t o n i t .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fo r s u r e . T h a t is 1 .
20

2 . Th e q u e s t io n w o u l d b e w h e t h e r Mr T h a b e t h e s h o u l d h a v e a c o p y o f
t h a t a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e h e is a s k e d o r n o t o r is i t e n o u g h if h e is t o l d t h is
is w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d b u t M r Z w a n e s a y s t h is , w h a t d o y o u s a y ? Yo u
k n o w. A n d i t m a y w e l l b e th a t a t a p r a c ti c a l le v e l r e a ll y h a v in g t h e c o p y
o r n o t m ig h t b e n e i th e r h e r e n o r th e r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .

Page 12 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. S o m a y b e l e t u s – le t m e a d j o u r n fo r fiv e
t o te n m i n u te s . I t is t w e n ty p a s t n o w a n d t h e n le t u s s a y a t h a l f p a s t I
w i ll r e tu r n u n l e s s in t h e m e a n ti m e b o th s id e s h a v e a p p r o a c h e d m e in
c h a m b e r s . S o i f th e r e is n o a p p r o a c h I w il l j u s t r e tu r n .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I n d e b t e d t o y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is g o in g o n n e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I d o C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. I a m g o i n g t o a d j o u r n t h e n u n til h a l f p a s t .
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gcabashe.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

C h a ir m a n I n o w

h a v e R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e E t o h a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e – w e ll …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d a ll E is …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b e f o r e t h a t h a s th e i s s u e b e e n s o r te d o u t ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O h y e s – y e s it h a s C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d I a c t u a lly v e r y q u ic k ly t o o k Mr

Buthelezi through.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t y o u h a d in m i n d .

Page 13 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e p o r t io n s t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t t o t h i s

s tr e a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B e c a u s e t h e r e a r e o th e r s tr e a m s i n th a t

a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h e r e – b e c a u s e h e is r e s p o n d i n g t o

v a r io u s 3 .3 ’s t h a t h e w a s g i v e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I th i n k th e y a r e s a tis f ie d C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t I a m n o t tr y in g to a m b u s h th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is c o m m i s s io n w o u l d n o t a m b u s h t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u a r e h e r e t o p r o t e c t t h e m in a n y e v e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t .

A n d th e C h a i r p e r s o n s h o u l d n o t

h a v e s a i d a m b u s h . O k a y l e t – th e C h a ir p e r s o n s h o u l d h a v e k n o w n th a t
t h is c o u n s e l w o u ld n o t a m b u s h a n y b o d y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I tr y C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e E h a s

a p p e a r e d a n d a l l i t is r e a ll y i s t h a t R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e D w a s r a t h e r l a r g e

Page 14 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
s o w e s p li t i t to m a k e i t e a s ie r f o r y o u t o h a n d le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: The documentation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A g a in C h a ir m a n I m u s t s a y t h e o n l y

r e a s o n w e h a v e s o m a n y R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e s is b e c a u s e w e h a v e b e e n
s tr u g g li n g t o g e t in f o r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M r Th a b e t h e h a d s tr u g g le d . W e m a n a g e d
10

to put together what we now have.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w e w il l b e u s i n g i t w it h a l l t h e o t h e r
i m p l ic a t e d p a r t ie s a n d r e g u l a r w i t n e s s e s w ill b e c o m i n g th r o u g h .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d y o u s a i d t h is o n e w e h a v e a l r e a d y

admitted?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I – C h a ir m a n j u s t o u t o f a n a b u n d a n c e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll c h e c k .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f c a u ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I d o n o t k n o w if y o u c a n fo r m u l a te a

s e n te n c e th a t s a y s in t h e e v e n t t h a t I n o w a d m i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll n o th a t w o u l d c a u s e m o r e c o n f u s i o n . I th in k – I
t h i n k s o m e b o d y n e e d s t o c h e c k a n d t h e n t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g e s p e c ia ll y i f
y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e u s in g i t r e a l ly.

So tomorrow morning we can

h a v e c l a r i t y.

Page 15 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Might I proceed?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you.

Mr T h a b e th e t h is is M r

Z w a n e ’s v e r s i o n t h a t s h o u ld h e b e g iv e n th e o p p o r t u n i ty h e w il l b e
p l a c in g b e fo r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n .

I t is ju s t i m p o r t a n t f o r y o u t o

u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e s a y s b e c a u s e y o u w o r k e d in th e s a m e e n v ir o n m e n t.
T h e c o n te x t o f th e fir s t f e w q u e s ti o n s r e a l ly r e l a te s t o w h a t w e h a v e
10

b e e n d is c u s s i n g a ll a l o n g .

S e c ti o n 3 8 o f th e P F M A w h ic h r e a lly s e ts

o u t t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s o f a n Ac c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r.

Yo u a r e h a p p y w i th

t h a t ? W e h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t a d n a u s e a m . Yo u a r e h a p p y w i t h i t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : [N o t s p e a k i n g i n to t h e m i c r o p h o n e ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t w i s h t o b r i n g t h e m ic r o p h o n e a li t tl e c lo s e r
t o y o u M r Th a b e t h e . N o t t o o c l o s e b u t J a . J a th a n k y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h e f ir s t t h i n g I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h is M r
Z w a n e ’s v i e w w h e r e e s s e n t ia ll y a g r e e s w i t h y o u w it h r e s p e c t to th e
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s t h a t fa ll w i th in t h e j u r is d i c t io n o f a n A c c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r.
H e in f a c t d r a w s a c l e a r d i s t i n c ti o n b e tw e e n t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s o f a n
20

A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r a n d t h o s e o f a m e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l .
And when I interpret what he says or when I read what he says he
r e a l ly is q u o ti n g t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n .

Yo u k n o w S e c ti o n 1 3 3 o f T h e

C o n s t i tu t io n w h ic h s e t s o u t t h e r o l e s o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il . A r e y o u
h a p p y w i t h t h a t p r o p o s i t io n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o I a m f in e .

Page 16 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n e x t p r o p o s i ti o n i s i n h is a ffi d a v i t M r
Z w a n e s a y s t h a t t h e M o h o m a M o b u n g P r o j e c t w a s h is b r a i n c h il d . A n d I
h a v e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t o b e y o u r e v id e n c e .

Please correct me if my

u n d e r s t a n d in g i s w r o n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . B e c a u s e y o u r e v i d e n c e is y o u fo u n d
t h is p r o c e s s in p l a c e w h e n y o u a r r iv e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

Correct.

And we know

th a t M r

J a n k i e ls o h n h i m s e l f t o l d u s a b o u t M r Z w a n e t a lk in g t o h i m a b o u t
M o h o m a M o b u n g . G o o d s o n o d is a g r e e m e n t h e r e . H e a ls o s a y s t h a t i s
M r Z w a n e a ls o s a y s t h a t h e i n tr o d u c e d t h e id e a o f M o h o m a M o b u n g t o
t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e . T h i s w o u ld b e c o r r e c t i n y o u r
v ie w a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e .

Because the development of

p o li c y i s t h e p r e r o g a t iv e o f th e e x e c u t iv e . A r e y o u i n a g r e e m e n t w i th
t h a t p r o p o s i ti o n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you. Again when I look at what he
s a y s h e r e a ll y is r e s ta t in g w h a t i s in S e c ti o n 1 2 5 o f t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n in
20

r e s p e c t o f t h e d e v e l o p m e n t a n d i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f p o lic y b y t h e
N a t io n a l E x e c u tiv e o r h e r e b y t h e Pr o v in c i a l E x e c u t iv e i n t h is p a r ti c u l a r
in s t a n c e .

W h a t I w i ll i n t e r r o g a t e w i t h y o u i s a f in e p o i n t a r o u n d t h e

i m p l e m e n ta t io n w h a t w e c a ll i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f th e m a n d a te o f t h e
d e p a r t m e n t. B u t I w il l g e t t o t h a t i n a m i n u te . S o t h a t is r e a ll y th e o n l y
a r e a t h a t I w a n t u s t o – to d e a l w i t h i n a li t tl e m o r e d e t a i l . Mr Z w a n e

Page 17 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
a ls o s a y s t h a t th e E X C O t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l g a v e h i m t h e g o a h e a d
w h e n h e p r e s e n t e d M o h o m a M o b u n g a s t h e b r o a d p r o j e c t d u r i n g h is
b u d g e t s p e e c h . Yo u w ill a g r e e t h a t t h is w a s w h a t h e d i d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ja.

T h e n M r Z w a n e c le a r ly s t a te s th a t

a ft e r th a t p r o c e s s th e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e p r o j e c t la y i n t h e h a n d s o f
t h e Ac c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r s a n d h e c l a r if i e s . T h e s e a r e o ffi c e r s w h o h a v e
t h e e x p e r ie n c e a n d t h e k n o w le d g e a n d s p e c ia li s a t io n t o i m p le m e n t w h a t
h a s b e e n a g r e e d a t p o li c y l e v e l. Yo u w o u l d a g r e e w it h t h a t a s w e ll ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

Ja that is correct.

I might maybe

c o m e b a c k to i t.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is f in e . I n f a c t I a m g o i n g t o b r e a k
t h a t li t t le c o n c e p t d o w n a l it t le m o r e b e c a u s e th e r e a r e r e a l ly t w o
p r o p o s i ti o n s t o w h a t M r Z w a n e s a y s i n t h i s p a r ti c u l a r p a r a g r a p h o f h i s
a ffi d a v i t .

T h e fi r s t r e la t e s t o w h o t a k e s r e s p o n s ib il i ty f o r t h e

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f p o lic y. W e a r e g o in g t o d e b a te t h a t w i t h y o u . T h e n
t h e s e c o n d s p e a k s t o t h e s k ill s s e t t h a t is r e q u i r e d o f a n A c c o u n ti n g
O ff ic e r a n d t h a t t h a t p a r tic u la r i n d iv id u a l b r i n g s t o th e jo b th a t t h e y
h a v e b e e n t a s k e d w it h a s A c c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r. I th i n k t h e s e c o n d o n e i s
20

a q u ic k e r o n e a n d a n e a s i e r m a t t e r to d e a l w i th M r Th a b e t h e . B e c a u s e
I b e li e v e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y a g r e e d t h a t t h e p o s it i o n o f A c c o u n ti n g
O ff ic e r r e q u i r e s a c e r t a i n l e v e l o f s k il l a n d k n o w l e d g e . A m I c o r r e c t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d i t i s o n t h is b a s is t h a t y o u w e r e

a p p o i n t e d i n f a c t to t h e p o s i ti o n o f H O D / A c c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r b e c a u s e

Page 18 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
y o u h a d s k il l a n d k n o w l e d g e . Ye s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t i s w h a t I h a v e u n d e r s to o d y o u to s a y
a s w e l l. A n d y o u a ls o a g r e e t h i s i s r e a ll y y o u r e v id e n c e th a t w h e n y o u
a r r iv e d t h e r e w e r e t w o H O D ’s .

O n e f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e

a n d o n e fo r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t . T h a t is c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: That is what he says because he says the
A c c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r s in th e p l u r a l a n d t h a t is h o w I i n te r p r e t t h a t . T h a t
10

t h o s e o ffi c e r s h a v e c e r t a i n r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s . Ye s ? T h e n w e g e t t o t h e
second

part of that broader proposition.

Because

Mr

Z w a n e ’s

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f th e p r o je c t is t h a t w i t h r e s p e c t
t o th e i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f M o h o m a M o b u n g t h a t d e v e l o p m e n t fr a m e w o r k
t h a t t h e y s o r t e d o u t a t a h i g h e r l e v e l . T h a t r e s p o n s i b il i ty s i ts w i th t h e
A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r. I w o u l d l ik e y o u r v i e w o n t h a t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir I m a y w a n t t o r e f e r b a c k t o
a document that we have spoken to. I think…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e E x h ib it H H th e c o u r t r e c o r d I a m
20

n o t s u r e w h ic h d o c u m e n t h a s t h e c h a r g e s h e e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y o u m e a n y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h i c h le v e r a r c h f il e

has got the charge sheet?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

W h ic h – w h ic h h a s t h e c h a r g e s h e e t

b u t I w o u l d – c o u ld q u ic k ly …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w a n t t o h a v e a l o o k a t th a t h e r e i n – b e f o r e

Page 19 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
responding?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : If I c o u l d – i f I c o u l d b e a s s is t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e I w o u l d w a n t to s t a r t th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e y m i g h t b e a b l e t o …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In g i v i n g t h a t r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I n my d o c u m e n t I c a n f in d i t m u c h

q u ic k e r C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: S o t h a t t h e n t h e y c a n h e l p m e t o f i n d
it o n t h e o ff ic i a l d o c u m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

O n t h e – o n t h e c o u r t f il e i t w a s I

think it is page 145.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e c o u r t fi le ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O n t h e c o u r t f il e p a g e 1 4 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n o t k n o w.

D o t h e y h a v e i t?

Do you have the

c o u r t f il e ?
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e d o h a v e t h e c o u r t fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t h i n k t h a t w i ll g i v e y o u …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a b u t i t is n o t th e p a g i n a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t th e p a g i n a te d c o u r t f il e ?

Page 20 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a b u t i t i s th e – i t is t h e c o u r t f il e

page 145.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O h t h e – p a g e 1 4 5 i s n o t a p a g in a t e d 1 4 5 ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o t t h e p a g in a t e d i t is th e o r i g i n a l

c o u r t f il e p a g e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e I a m – I u n d e r s ta n d t h e y a r e
s t il l o n t h e d o c u m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Yo u w i ll b e a b l e t o fi n d i t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n w i t h y o u r l e a v e m i g h t w e

proceed?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Because it should be the same document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e w il l j u s t g iv e i t t h e p r o p e r r e f e r e n c e

n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: For record purposes.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. T h a t is fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h il e – a s s o o n a s w e f in d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: Ye s . N o w C h a ir t h i s w a s t h e c h a r g e
sheet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e c r i m i n a l c a s e ?

Page 21 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In t h e c r i m i n a l c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o w I w a n t to g o s p e c i f ic a l ly i n

r e s p o n d i n g t o th a t q u e s t i o n t o t h a t p a g e 1 4 5 . I t h i n k i t i s i t e m n u m b e r
24.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h ic h s a y s :
“ T h a b e t h e ’s r e q u e s t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e Pr o v in c i a l
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l . ”
10

Now that is what I wanted to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e fe r t o ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

To r e f e r to t h a t I w a s c h a r g e d to

i m p l e m e n t t h e d e c is i o n o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

That was on the charge sheet of

court.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: That I received approval.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d I w a s c h a r g e d f o r i m p le m e n t in g
C H A I R P E R S O N : A d e c is i o n o f c o u n c i l .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e d e c is i o n o f c o u n c il . R i g h t n o w I
a m c o m i n g b a c k t o t h e – t o t h e q u e s ti o n C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
ju s t s a i d ?

C a n I j u s t g e t c l a r it y o n w h a t y o u h a v e

S o y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t th a t E X C O r e s o l u ti o n o f t h e 1 3

Page 22 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
June 2012?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h ic h s a i d y o u s h o u ld g o a h e a d a n d

i m p l e m e n t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d th e r e w e r e a f e w t h i n g s i n c l u d in g

fi n d i n g t h e R 8 4 m il li o n t h a t w a s la c k i n g a n d in c l u d i n g – a n d g e t t in g th e
FDC?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To a s s i s t y o u o n e w a y o r t h e o th e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Right.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o t h a t is a d o c u m e n t w e h a v e s p o k e n

a b o u t a lr e a d y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ex a c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : t h e p a r ti c u la r d e c is i o n a s h e p u t s i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n . J u s t t o g iv e c o n t e x t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n c e w e k n o w w h e r e in t h e b u n d l e s i t is t h e n a s y o u
s a i d w e c a n j u s t m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o it to s a y w h e r e it i s t o b e fo u n d . S o
t h e r e a d e r o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t c a n r e la t e – c a n f i n d it e a s i ly. O k a y a lr i g h t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

Page 23 of 115

C h a ir I a m – I w a s n o t

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
s p e c i f ic a l ly r e f e r r i n g to t h e – t o t h e E X C O a p p r o v a l a s a d o c u m e n t b u t
t h is is a n e x tr a c t i n th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m th e m i n u t e s o f a n E X C O m e e ti n g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: N o f r o m t h e – fr o m t h e c o u r t c h a r g e
sheet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t it w a s a c h a r g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t I w a s i m p l e m e n ti n g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n a p p r o v a l o f th e Ex e c u t iv e C o u n c il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
t h a t p a r t.

S o I a m j u s t – I a m j u s t m e n ti o n i n g

W e d i d d is c u s s t h e d o c u m e n t i t s e l f w h e r e th e E x e c u t iv e

C o u n c il h a d a p p r o v e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s o k a y, o k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A ll I a m r e fe r r i n g t o i s t h a t I g o t
charged.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : F o r i m p l e m e n t i n g t h e d e c i s i o n o f th e
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is i n th e c h a r g e s h e e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o – m a y – s o r r y.

Page 24 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k I m u s t a ll o w y o u t o fi n is h I a m j u s t th in k i n g

t h a t o f c o u r s e if y o u – i f th e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c il m a d e a d e c is i o n t h a t
y o u m u s t d o s o m e th i n g i ll e g a l y o u w o u ld n o t b e e x p e c te d to i m p l e m e n t
t h a t , i s i t n o t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. A s i t c a m e th a t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o , n o I a m j u s t – it i s j u s t th a t th e w a y y o u w e r e
e m p h a s is i n g t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u w e r e c h a r g e d f o r i m p l e m e n t i n g .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D e c is i o n o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il .

I g o t th e

i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e p o i n t y o u w e r e s e e k i n g to m a k e is h o w c o u ld I b e
c h a r g e d fo r i m p le m e n t in g a d e c is i o n o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il . S o t h a t
is t h e c o n t e x t i n w h ic h I w a s – I w a s m a k in g t h a t r e m a r k .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I h e a r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I w a n t e d t o r e fe r b a c k t o t h e c o m m e n t
she asked me to respond.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Ye s .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t i n t h e a ff id a v i t o f M r Z w a n e w a s
t h a t h e w a s n o t r e s p o n s i b l e f o r i m p l e m e n t a ti o n . T h e o ff ic i a ls a r e w h ic h
I accepted and agreed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e i m p l e m e n t – t h e d e c is i o n i s t a k e n
a n d w e a r e r e s p o n s ib l e fo r th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n w h ic h I h a v e a lr e a d y

Page 25 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
s a i d I a g r e e t h a t w e a r e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r i m p l e m e n ta t io n .

Thank you

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Mr Zwane – I beg your pardon.

Mr

T h a b e th e y o u a r e n o t M r Z w a n e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll p r e v i o u s ly I d o n o t k n o w i f i t w a s y o u b u t

p r e v i o u s ly w h e n a n e v id e n c e l e a d e r k e p t o n c a l li n g a w i tn e s s b y
s o m e b o d y e ls e s h e s a i d th e y m i g h t h a v e t o p a y.
10

Must have been Ms

H o f m e y r w h o k e p t o n c a ll in g s o m e w it n e s s b y s o m e b o d y e l s e ’s n a m e .
Ye s o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e – w e h a v e to o m a n y a ffi d a v i t s w e d e a l
w i t h C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

But you know counsel has no problem with

paying.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m c o m i n g t o g e t s o m e c a t tl e fr o m y o u
s o I c a n p a s s th e m o n to s o m e b o d y Mr T h a b e t h e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s c o n ti n u e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

S o if w e th e n g o b a c k t o w h a t y o u h a v e

s a i d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t t h is fr a m e w o r k p o l ic y fr a m e w o r k d e v e lo p e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M y q u e s t io n i s , a s i t w a s d e v e lo p in g d i d

y o u c o n s u l t M r Z w a n e i n h i s c a p a c it y a s t h e M E C f o r a g r ic u l t u r e ? D i d
h e g i v e y o u i n p u t o n t h a t d e v e lo p m e n t ?

B e c a u s e I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o

u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i m p le m e n t a ti o n in th e s e c i r c u ms t a n c e s m ig h t m e a n .

Page 26 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
T h a t is r e a ll y w h a t I a m tr y in g t o u n d e r s t a n d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir. W e h a d a v e r y l o n g d e b a te
o n t h i s m a t te r.

I r e m e m b e r w e w a n te d t o d e c id e w h e t h e r i t w a s a

s tr a t e g y o r a c o n c e p t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h th a t i s y o u r – w h e n y o u s a y w e is it y o u r s e l f a n d
M r Zw a n e o r y o u r s e l f a n d o t h e r o ffic i a ls in t h e d e p a r t m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o , n o i n th e c o m m i s s io n .

W e d id

d e b a te it i n t h e c o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o u ts i d e o f t h e h e a r i n g o r in t h e h e a r i n g ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In t h e h e a r i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. I t h a s b e e n a lo n g t i m e . S i n c e t h e n I h a v e
h a d th e e v id e n c e o f m a n y w i t n e s s e s – o t h e r w i t n e s s e s . Ye s o k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t – s o w h a t is t h e p o i n t y o u w a n t t o m a k e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . W h a t I a m s a y i n g C h a i r w e a r e
g o i n g b a c k t h e r e a g a in .
CHAIRPERSON: Well it might be necessary sometimes just to refresh
o u r m e m o r y a n d t o r e c o n n e c t b u t i t d e p e n d s . B u t I s e e Ms G c a b a s h e i s
s h a k i n g h e r h e a d t o s a y s h e – w e a r e n o t g o in g b a c k . S o I th i n k I w i ll

20

a l lo w h e r t o a s k th e q u e s t io n a g a in a n d t h e n s e e i f y o u c a n a n s w e r i t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y t h a n k s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r T h a a b e t h e a l l I a m a s k i n g is a s t h e

w h e t h e r w e c a ll i t a s tr a te g y, w h e t h e r w e c a l l it a d e v e l o p m e n t
fr a m e w o r k a s t h a t w a s b e i n g r e f i n e d – t h i s is w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d o f y o u r

Page 27 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u h a d t o w o r k w i th it .

D i d y o u g e t in p u t fr o m y o u r

p o li t ic a l p r i n c i p l e i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t ? T h a t is a l l .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a i r w e m a d e i n p u ts . W e m a d e
t e c h n ic a l i n p u t s i n t o h is i d e a .
were

making

in p u t

to

r e fi n e

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t it is u s w h o
it

so

that

t e c h n ic a l ly

it

becomes

i m p l e m e n ta b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t – I d o n o t k n o w y o u – in c a s e i t is n o t c le a r
y o u m i g h t h a v e t o m a k e it c l e a r b u t i t m a y b e t h a t i t w a s c l e a r.

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r q u e s t i o n w a s t h a t i t r e la t e d to – r e la t e d m o r e t o
10

r e fi n i n g i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o r h o w i t w o u l d b e i m p l e m e n te d a t a s o p p o s e d
t o th e c o n c e p t b u t I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d .

B u t I t h i n k th e a n s w e r

s e e m s t o r e l a te t o t h e c o n c e p t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I – t h is is w h y I w a s j u s t g o i n g to a s k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : F o r c l a r i ty s a k e M r T h a b e t h e . I f w h a t y o u
a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e r e f i n e m e n t y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t th e in p u ts y o u
g a v e M r Z w a n e w h e t h e r t h o s e w e r e b e f o r e t h e b u d g e t s p e e c h w h e r e th e
le g i s l a tu r e h e a r d a b o u t i t a n d b e f o r e h e t o l d h is E X C O c o ll e a g u e s
a b o u t it .
20

B e c a u s e th a t w o u l d ju s t c l a r i fy t h e m a t t e r.

So your inputs

w e r e b e f o r e h e t o o k s te p s t o p u t t h e p o lic y p o s i ti o n t o h is c o ll e a g u e s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: Ye s C h a ir. Th e p o lic e p o s i ti o n e n d s
w h e n h e g o e s a n d p r e s e n ts a b u d g e t s p e e c h a n d p r e s e n ts th e p r o j e c ts
t o t h e l e g is l a t u r e f o r i m p l e m e n t a ti o n a n d t h e a l lo c a t io n o f t h e b u d g e t.
T h a t i s w h e r e w e t h e n c o m e in a n d m a k e i n p u ts b e c a u s e th a t is h i s
p o li c y s p e e c h th a t h e p r e s e n ts to th e l e g i s la t u r e . T h e n o n c e t h a t h a s

Page 28 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
b e e n c o n c l u d e d t h e n o u r r e s p o n s i b ili t y i s t h e n t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f
w h a t h a s b e e n m a d e p o l ic y n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e i n p u t t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h a t y o u m a d e
t o h is c o n c e p t i s i n p u t t h a t w a s m a d e p r i o r t o h i m p r e s e n ti n g h i s b u d g e t
speech?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . N o w b e c a u s e t h is
started
10

out

as

Mohoma

Mobung

you

e v e n t u a l ly

reshaped

the

i m p l e m e n ta t io n b y s e l e c ti n g t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t a s a m e g a p r o j e c t .
Is th a t p a r t o f i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o r j u s t th a t s e l e c t i o n o f Vr e d e a s a m e g a
p r o j e c t w a s th a t p a r t o f i m p l e m e n t a ti o n a n d t h e r e f o r e p a r t o f p o l ic y o r
w a s i t p a r t o f t h e e v e r y d a y a p p li c a t io n t h a t k i n d o f i m p le m e n t a ti o n ?
J u s t h e l p m e u n d e r s ta n d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a i r t h e Vr e d e D a i r y w a s o n e o f
t h e m e g a p r o j e c ts o f M o h o m a M o b u n g i t w a s n o t t h e p r o j e c t .

Th e r e

were

b e in g

other

p r o j e c ts

under

th e

same

concept

th a t

were

i m p l e m e n te d . S o i t – t h e M o h o m a M o b u n g c a n n o t o n ly b e r e f e r r e d to
Vr e d e D a ir y.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Mr Zwane – Mr Thabethe
CHAIRPERSON: I think …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e c l o s e t o p a y i n g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : [ A f r ic a n l a n g u a g e ] . M r T h a b e th e I r e a l ly
a m n o t tr y i n g to tr i c k y o u .

I r e a l ly a m s i m p ly t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d

Page 29 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
i m p l e m e n ta t io n a s y o u e x p e r i e n c e d i t t h e r e . S o i t i s a m a t te r o f
u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t i t i s t h a t y o u a n d t h e o ffic i a ls in t h e d e p a r t m e n t d i d
o n c e th e M o h o m a M o b u n g b r o a d c o n c e p t h a d b e e n a d o p te d b y th e
le g i s l a tu r e .

Because once that broad concept had been adopted you

t h e n l o o k e d a t v a r i o u s p r o j e c ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I h a v e n o d i ff ic u l ty w i t h t h a t . B u t y o u a ls o
in lo o k i n g a t v a r io u s p r o j e c t s s e l e c t e d t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t fo r
s p e c i a l a t t e n t io n . A m I c o r r e c t ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I w il l n o t s a y n e c e s s a r i ly

s p e c i a l a t t e n t io n b u t i t w a s o n e o f t h e k e y p r o j e c ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe let – let me see if I can
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Good.
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e s e e if I c a n a s k y o u t h is q u e s ti o n .

The

d e c is i o n t h a t t h e r e m u s t b e Vr e d e D a ir y – t h e r e m u s t b e t h e Vr e d e
D a ir y P r o je c t.

T h e m a k i n g o f t h a t d e c is i o n I t a k e i t w a s p a r t o f th e

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e p o l ic y, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d t h a t d e c is io n w a s m a d e b y t h e o ff ic ia ls t h a t is

yourself and the department.

T h e p e o p le

who were meant to

i m p l e m e n t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h a t is tr u e is t h a t w e – fr o m a ll t h e
p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t w e h a v e m a d e o n p r o j e c t t o t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c i l

Page 30 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
f o r t h is c o m m is s i o n o n l y t h a t o n e w a s s in g l e d o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t i t i s n o t t h e o n ly p r o j e c ts t h a t w e
g o t o t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: And request approval.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t fo r t h i s s p e c i fic

r e a s o n w e a r e r e s p o n d i n g b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s th a t it s h o u l d n o t
10

lo o k lik e w h e n w e w e n t to t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il w e o n ly w e n t t o
p r e s e n t o n e p r o j e c t w h ic h w a s t h e Vr e d e D a ir y n o i t w a s n o t t h e r e w e r e
o th e r s w h i c h w e h a d d o n e s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l e v e n i f y o u h a d g o n e t h e r e fo r o n e I m e a n in

p r i n c i p l e w h y s h o u l d th a t b e w r o n g y o u k n o w. S o I d o n o t t h i n k th a t i s
M s G c a b a s h e ’s c o n c e r n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

Mr T h a b e th e I

w o u ld ju s t li k e t o m o v e o n b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e a c o u p le o f o t h e r t h i n g s
20

t h a t I w a n t to p l a c e o n r e c o r d i n r e la t i o n t o w h a t M r Z w a n e h a s to s a y.
S o h e s a y s t h a t a f t e r t h e p r e s e n ta t io n to t h e le g is l a t u r e t h e p r o j e c t w a s
h a n d e d o v e r t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d h e d id n o t i n te r f e r e w i t h t h e d u ti e s
o f t h e a d m i n is tr a t o r s w h o s e r e s p o n s i b i li ty i t w a s t o i m p l e m e n t t h e
M o h o m a M o b u n g P r o j e c t . W o u l d y o u a g r e e w i th t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 31 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

What he did however do was by way of

e x a m p l e a s s is t i n th e i d e n t if ic a ti o n o f b e n e fi c i a r i e s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a C h a ir a f te r t h e p r o j e c ts is

approved

do

fo r

i m p le m e n t a ti o n

we

the

implementation.

r e s p o n s i b i li ty is t o r e p o r t b a c k to h i m o n p r o g r e s s .
then do.

Our

T h a t is w h a t w e

If fo r a n e x a m p l e w e h a v e d i ff ic u l t y lik e i n t h e i s s u e o f

id e n t i fy i n g b e n e f ic ia r i e s w e w o u l d g o t o h i m a n d s a y, th is i s t h e is s u e
that we may need you to assist us to do where – as part of our report
b a c k to h i m .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I j u s t n o t e th e r e f e r e n c e to i n t e r f e r e n c e t h a t h e
s a y s h e d i d n o t in t e r f e r e . A n d I n o t e w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d . I d o n o t
k n o w w h a t h e r e g a r d s a s i n t e r fe r e n c e a n d w h a t h e d o e s n o t r e g a r d a s
in t e r fe r e n c e .

B u t fr o m w h a t y o u s a y i t is c l e a r t h a t – a n d o n e w o u l d

e x p e c t t h is t o b e t h e c a s e t h a t y o u w o u l d r e p o r t b a c k t o h i m o n
i m p l e m e n ta t io n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s e e h o w i s t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n p r o c e s s a n d I t a k e
it t h a t a s y o u r e p o r t b a c k t o h i m o n p r o g r e s s h e w o u l d h a v e – h e w o u l d
r a i s e q u e s ti o n s w h e r e h e th i n k s t h e r e s h o u l d b e q u e s ti o n s a n d m a y b e
20

h e w o u l d e v e n m a k e s u g g e s ti o n s . I s t h a t n o t s o ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h a t i s c o r r e c t b e c a u s e h e

n e e d s t o h a v e a f u l l u n d e r s t a n d i n g s o t h a t w h e n h e g o e s to th e
le g i s l a tu r e a n d q u e s ti o n s a r e r a i s e d h e s h o u ld b e a b l e t o r e s p o n d t o
those questions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it m a y w e ll b e b u t y o u m i g h t n o t a g r e e w it h t h is .

Page 32 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
I t m a y w e ll b e t h a t h e w o u l d a ls o is s u e i n s tr u c ti o n s o n i m p l e m e n ta t io n .
MR

MBANA

PETER

THABETHE:

C h a ir

my

understanding

of

in t e r fe r e n c e i s – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t o f t h e P F M A . W h e n h e g iv e s
y o u i n s tr u c ti o n s to i m p l e m e n t th in g s t h a t a r e n o t i n l in e w i t h p o l ic y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . It m i g h t n o t – t h e i s s u e m i g h t n o t a r is e s o w e –
if it a r is e s w e c a n g o b a c k to it .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

S o t h e e x a m p le I

h a d g iv e n w a s in id e n ti fy in g b e n e fic i a r i e s h e a s s is t e d i n t h a t r e g a r d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D i d h e a s s i s t w i t h r e s p e c t t o t h e s e le c ti o n
o f a s tr a te g ic p a r t n e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir n o , n o . T h e – I t h i n k w e h a v e –
w e h a d g o n e th o u g h t h a t a ls o h o w t h e s tr a t e g ic p a r t n e r w a s s e le c te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t th e – h o w t h e s tr a te g i c p a r tn e r w a s s e l e c t e d
is o n e t h i n g th e q u e s ti o n w h e th e r h e h a d a n i n p u t o n th e s e le c ti o n
m i g h t b e a n o th e r.

S o th e q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r h e a s s is t e d in th is

s e l e c t i o n o f t h e s tr a t e g i c p a r t n e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir I w o u l d n o t k n o w b e c a u s e
t h e s tr a te g ic p a r t n e r w a s n o t s e l e c te d b y u s .
20

If I a m r e f e r r in g t o

E s ti n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: It was selected by Paras. So I would
n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s H m . O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

J u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f

Page 33 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
y o u r e v i d e n c e is th a t th e s tr a te g ic p a r t n e r w a s P a r a s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d P a r a s t h e n s e l e c t e d E s ti n a . B u t t h e
s tr a t e g ic p a r t n e r w a s P a r a s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you. Now Mr Zwane goes on to say
t h a t h e w a s n o t r e q u i r e d t o a p p r o v e t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f E s ti n a a s th e
i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t . Is th a t c o r r e c t? A n d p l e a s e th is i s i m p o r ta n t . H e
w a s n o t r e q u ir e d to a p p r o v e t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f E s ti n a a s t h e
10

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a I a m – i t is a v e r y t r ic k y q u e s ti o n
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I c a n u n d e r s ta n d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
q u e s t io n .

M a y b e le t m e a s k fr o m – l e t m e a s k a r e l a te d

As a matter of fact do you know whether he approved the

s e l e c t i o n o f P a r a s a s a s t r a t e g ic p a r tn e r i r r e s p e c ti v e o f w h e t h e r i t w a s
h is – h e w a s r e q u ir e d o r n o t. D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r a s a m a t te r o f f a c t
h e d i d g iv e a p p r o v a l ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

C h a i r a s p a r t o f th e Ex e c u ti v e

C o u n c il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: He has.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR

MBANA

PETER

THABETHE:

Be cause

Page 34 of 115

that

agreement

and

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
approval.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W a s d o n e b y th e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il

a n d h e w a s i n th e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o h e w a s p a r t o f th a t a p p r o v a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : By t h e E x e c u ti v e C o u n c il .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

I - I t h i n k y o u - y o u w o u ld h a v e p ic k e d u p

M s G c a b a s h e th a t fo r m e w h a t I w a s n o t s u r e a b o u t t h e r e q u ir e d p a r t
w a s - w a s w h e th e r i t m e a n t h e w a s r e q u i r e d b y la w o r n o t .

So the -

t h a t i s t h e p a r t th a t w a s i n m y m i n d t h a t is w h y I p u t t h a t q u e s ti o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

B r o u g h t c la r i ty - y o u r

q u e s t io n d i d b r i n g c l a r i t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e - th e n e x t p o r ti o n t h e n i s i n r e s p e c t o f
t h e p a y m e n t o f f u n d s t o a n y c r e d i to r o r r e c i p ie n t .

Now again he was

n o t r e q u ir e d - a n d t h i s is t h e l a n g u a g e y o u u s e d i f I - my r e c o ll e c t io n
s e r v e s m e w e ll . To a p p r o v e th e p a y m e n t o f a n y fu n d s t o a n y c r e d i to r o r
20

r e c ip i e n t th a t i s a n a d m i n i s t r a t iv e f u n c ti o n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir it - t h a t - th a t b e c o m e s t h e

r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e a d m i n is tr a t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - s o d o y o u a c c e p t h is v e r s i o n t h a t h e w a s n o t

Page 35 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
r e q u ir e d t o a p p r o v e a n y fu n d i n g ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
C h a ir.

No.

Yo u s e e t h e r e a r e t w o th in g s

W h e n - w h e n h e g o e s t o th e le g is l a t u r e h e r e q u e s t t h e

le g i s l a tu r e t o a p p r o v e t h e b u d g e t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h in c l u d e s th e
Vr e d e P r o j e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O n c e t h a t a p p r o v a l i s g iv e n t o h i m …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In - in i m p l e m e n ti n g t h a t p r o j e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th a t a u t o m a ti c a lly g e ts tr a n s la t e d to

t h e a d m i n is tr a t o r s t o i m p l e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o i t d o e s n o t p l a y a r o l e a n y m o r e in
t e r m s o f a p p r o v a l o n c e h e g e ts th e a p p r o v a l a t t h e l e g is l a t u r e i n t e r m s
o f t h e b u d g e t a ll o c a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B u t a ls o th a t m e a n s th a t w h e n h e g o e s t o th e

le g i s l a tu r e h e is th e o n e w h o i s s a y i n g p le a s e a p p r o v e t h i s b u d g e t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h h a s g o t t h e s e c o m p o n e n t s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e r e fo r e a n d - a n d h e c a n n o t s a y t o t h e l e g is l a t u r e
a p p r o v e th is u n l e s s h e is h a p p y w i t h i t . H e is h i m s e l f a p p r o v in g o f i t .

Page 36 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o - b u t - b u t t h e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k i n g is

a p p r o v a l w it h in t h a t c o n te x t h e g e ts i n v o lv e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o t o u ts id e o f t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O u t - o u t s id e . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n h is v ie w i s t h a t:
“The Mohuma Mobung Project was a great idea and
a fl a g s h i p p r o j e c t t h a t w o u l d h a v e p u t t h e F r e e

10

S t a te Pr o v i n c e o n th e m a p h a d i t b e e n e x e c u t e d
p r o p e r ly. ”
G r e a t p r o j e c t . I t w o u ld h a v e p u t t h e F r e e S t a t e P r o v i n c e o n
t h e m a p h a d i t b e e n e x e c u t e d p r o p e r l y. T h a t is h is v i e w. D o y o u s h a r e
t h a t v ie w ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e i m p li c a t i o n …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: May …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C a n w e c h e c k s o m e t h i n g C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : If - i f i t h a d b e e n p r o p e r ly e x e c u t e d …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja

and

p r o p e r ly

executed

i m p l e m e n te d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .

Page 37 of 115

means

properly

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

If - i f i t w a s g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o

b e e x e c u t e d t h a t - t h a t w i ll b e m y v e r s io n t o t h a t s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u - y o u s e e k t o q u a li fy y o u r a n s w e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y y o u s a y i f i t w a s - if i t h a d b e e n g iv e n a p r o p e r
o p p o r t u n i ty to b e e x e c u t e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I s y o u r p o s i t io n t h a t i t w a s n o t e x e c u t e d o r i t w a s

e x e c u te d b u t w a s n o t g iv e n e n o u g h t i m e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h o f t h e t w o - C h a i r m a n
I th o u g h t y o u p u t t w o …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D i ff e r e n t p r o p o s i ti o n s t o - t o Mr T h a b e t h e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I d i d . I t h i n k - I t h i n k h e a g r e e d t o b o t h b u t l e t u s
- l e t u s h e lp b e c a u s e it c o u l d c a u s e c o n f u s io n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.

20

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it what - what you are - what you are
s a y in g y o u a r e - y o u a d m i t t h a t i t w a s e x e c u te d b u t y o u a r e s a y i n g i t
w a s n o t g iv e n a p r o p e r o p p o r tu n it y t o b e e x e c u t e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To b e e x e c u te d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h s e e m s t o s u g g e s t t o m e th a t m o r e ti m e - y o u

a r e s a y i n g m o r e t i m e s h o u ld h a v e b e e n g i v e n t o i t .

Page 38 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

No, no.

C h a ir - C h a ir w h a t - w h a t I

a m t r y i n g t o s a y is th a t b e c a u s e w h e n - w h e n t h e p r o j e c t w a s b e i n g
i m p l e m e n te d a p r o b l e m s t a r t e d f r o m t h e i n i ti a ti o n w h e n - w h e n i t w a s
s t a r t e d t h e n p r o b le m s c a m e .

S o i t n e v e r h a d a n o p p o r tu n it y t o b e

i m p l e m e n te d p r o p e r l y.
M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t h e is r e f e r r i n g t o t h a t .

He - he -

b e c a u s e t h e o t h e r v e r s i o n c o u l d h a v e b e e n i f - if t h e o ff ic i a l c o u ld h a v e
i m p l e m e n te d it p r o p e r l y w h ic h i s n o t m y u n d e r s t a n d in g b e c a u s e i f - i f
t h a t w a s t h e c a s e t h e n i t is a d i ffe r e n t s to r y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s e e h e - h e m i g h t n o t b e p a r ti c u la r w i t h h o w
h e i s f o r m u l a ti n g i t b u t th e o n e o p t io n - t h e o n e p r o p o s i ti o n c o u l d b e
t h e o ff ic ia ls w h o w e r e s u p p o s e d to i m p l e m e n t i t f a i le d t o i m p l e m e n t i t
p r o p e r ly. Th a t i s w h y w e h a v e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e h a v e th is p r o b l e m .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n o th e r p r o p o s it i o n w o u ld b e to s a y t h e o p p o r tu n it y

t o - t o i m p l e m e n t i t w a s n o t a p r o p e r o p p o r tu n it y. S o s o m e e x e c u ti o n
w a s tr ie d b u t i t d i d n o t w o r k w e ll b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o t a p r o p e r o r
20

e n o u g h o p p o r tu n i t y b u t fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g it s e e ms y o u a r e
s a y in g it w a s n o t g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n i t y f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g .

Is t h a t

r ig h t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I a m - I a m a g r e e i n g w it h y o u r
s e c o n d o p ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 39 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t is w h y I w a s tr y i n g t h e n t o

correct …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To - t o a m e n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e s t a t e m e n t t o s a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t is n o t b e c a u s e o f th e f a il u r e o f t h e
o ffic i a ls …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t i t w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e o p p o r t u n i ty
t h a t w a s n o t g r a n te d f o r t h e p r o je c t t o b e i m p le m e n t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M a y b e y o u c a n ju s t c l a r i f y w h a t y o u m e a n
b y th e p r o j e c t w a s n o t g iv e n t h e o p p o r t u n it y t o d e v e lo p i n th e m a n n e r
in w h ic h y o u h a d e n v i s a g e d i t w o u l d .

M a y b e th a t is t h e o n ly a r e a

w h e r e I - I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d y o u . W h a t o p p o r t u n i ty ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir, w e - w e h a d in t e n d e d to d e a l

w i t h t h is e a r li e r o n . T h a t w h e n w e w e r e s t a r ti n g th e p r o je c t th e - t h e 20

t h e r e w e r e s o m a n y a r ti c l e s i n th e m e d i a . Yo u w i ll r e m e m b e r i t w a s w e w e r e b e g i n n i n g t o i m p le m e n t th e p r o j e c t w h e n t h e r e w a s t h e
Wa t e r k l o o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e la n d i n g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e la n d i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 40 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d i t w a s t h a t t i m e th a t e v e r y t h i n g

came to a halt.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d i d a n y t h i n g h a v e t o c o m e t o a h a l t a b o u t Vr e d e
b e c a u s e o f t h e l a n d i n g - W a t e r k lo o f l a n d in g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ex a c t ly C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e th a t - t h a t w a s t h e ti m e

w h e n th e f ir s t a r tic l e a b o u t Vr e d e D a ir y c a m e to b e a n d - a n d y o u w ill
r e m e m b e r t h e - th e t e s ti m o n y o f th e f ir s t w i t n e s s t h a t c a m e i n h e r e
10

r e fe r r e d t o - t o t h a t a n d a l l t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t c a m e t h e r e a f te r w a s
b a s e d o n t h a t n e w s p a p e r a r t ic l e w h ic h w a s o n M a il & G u a r d i a n .
So

from

that time

there

was

never

an

o p p o r tu n i t y

to

i m p l e m e n t b e c a u s e it w a s i n v e s ti g a ti o n a f t e r in v e s t i g a t io n . S o i t n e v e r
h a d th a t o p p o r tu n it y t o - to h a v e t h e t i m e t o i m p le m e n t i t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Mr Thabethe I want to challenge that

t h i n k i n g b u t I w il l d o s o t o m o r r o w o n t h e b a s is o f t h e m o n i e s th a t w e r e
a d v a n c e d to m a k e s u r e th a t t h is d a i r y p r o je c t g o t o ff t h e g r o u n d b u t i t
is a s p e c if ic is s u e b e c a u s e w e lo o k a t h o w m u c h m o n e y w a s p u t i n . W e
lo o k a t th e q u a r te r ly r e p o r ts th a t w e r e p r e s e n t - p r e s e n t e d to th e
20

o ffic i a ls a n d t h e n m a k e a n a s s e s s m e n t. I t h i n k …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O n w h e r e th i n g s w e n t h o r r ib ly w r o n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t h in k i f w e g e n e r a l is e n o w a n d l o o k a t

t h e p e r i o d 1 3 J u n e 2 0 1 0 t o r o u g h ly 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 3 w h i c h is th e ti m e o f

Page 41 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
t h e Wa t e r k l o o f la n d i n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u h a d a b o u t a y e a r. I d o n o t w a n t u s t o
g e n e r a l is e a b o u t w h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e i n th a t - i n th a t p e r io d .
W e w il l l o o k a t t h e n u m b e r s a n d t h e a ll o c a t i o n s a n d u s e t h o s e to
determine what could have been done.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f - i f t h a t s u i ts y o u .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r - C h a ir …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h a t - w h a t I a m t r y i n g t o - to e x p l a i n
is t h a t t h is w a s a th r e e y e a r p r o je c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It s t a ll e d i n th e fir s t y e a r …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O f - o f i t s i m p l e m e n ta t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H e n c e t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t i f i t w a s

g iv e n th e o p p o r tu n i t y …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To - t o b e i m p l e m e n t e d i t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n o n e o f t h e g r e a t e s t p r o j e c ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll M s G c a b a s h e s a i d y o u - s h e w il l d e a l w i t h th is

tomorrow …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Good.

Page 42 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I w a n t e d t o a s k y o u w h y d o y o u s a y t h e fa c t t h a t
s o m e b o d y w r o t e a n a r tic le i n t h e n e w s p a p e r a b o u t W a t e r k lo o f l a n d i n g
o r a n d / o r a b o u t Vr e d e - Vr e d e F a r m t h a t ta k e s a w a y fr o m y o u t h e
o p p o r t u n i ty to d o y o u r jo b ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. Chair …
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y d i d n o t c o m e p h y s ic a ll y - t o p h y s ic a l ly p r e v e n t

y o u f r o m d o i n g y o u r w o r k a b o u t Vr e d e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

T h a t - t h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t

C h a ir b u t t h a t t r i g g e r e d a l o t o f p r o b l e ms . I t h i n k i f - i f w h e n w e c o m e
10

t o i t th e n I w il l e x p la i n .

O n e - o n e o f t h e is s u e s - o n e o f th e b a s is

w h e n - w h e n t h a t h a p p e n e d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w r it i n g o f a n a r tic le i n t h e n e w s p a p e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th e - t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t w a s d o n e
b y N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y w a s o n th e b a s is o f th e n e w s p a p e r a r ti c l e a n d
t h e y m e n t io n e d t h a t in t h e ir r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d s o w h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: And then …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y - t h e y c a n in v e s ti g a te . Yo u c a r r y o n w it h y o u r
jo b . I f t h e y s a y w e w a n t t o h a v e t w o h o u r s w i th y o u t o m o r r o w t o a s k
y o u a b o u t t h i s . Yo u s a y o k a y I w il l m a k e t i m e . Yo u s e e th e m fo r t w o
h o u r s . T h e y w a n t t o s e e s o m e b o d y e ls e . Yo u s a y t h e s ta ff is a v a il a b l e .
Yo u c a n t a l k t o th e m . A f t e r y o u a r e h a d d o n e y o u c o n ti n u e . Yo u - y o u
do your job.

Page 43 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h o w d o e s i t - h o w d o e s it t a k e a w a y f r o m y o u t h e
o p p o r t u n i ty t o i m p le m e n t w h ic h y o u o t h e r w i s e h a d b e f o r e s o m e b o d y
w r o t e i n t h e a r ti c l e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wr o t e a n a r t ic le .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y w r o t e a l e t t e r
t o h o l d th e p r o j e c t . T h e l e t te r w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e - w e r e c e iv e d a l e t te r fr o m t h e

N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t f r o m A g r i c u l tu r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S a y i n g w e - th e y - w e s h o u l d n o t b e

a l lo w e d t o p r o c e e d i m p le m e n t in g th e p r o j e c t w i th t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s
a l lo c a t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: That - that can I understand. When did that happen?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t - i t w a s - C h a ir d u r i n g - i t w a s n o t
…
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Well we - Ms Gcabashe just reminded you that the

Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d i n g w a s i n A p r i l 2 0 1 3 . S o - s o …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s a n d - a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n w a s th is ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

U n t il t h a t t i m e C h a ir e v e r y t h i n g w a s

progressing well.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 44 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I n t e r m s o f i m p l e m e n t a ti o n . I n t e r m s
o f t h e i n f r a s t r u c tu r e th a t w a s o n th e g r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u h a d h a d a y e a r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M o r e o r l e s s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t h a p p e n e d v e r y w e l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o w a f t e r t h e la n d i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e - w e w e r e t h e n b e g i n n in g t o e n t e r
in t o t h e - t h e s e c o n d y e a r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d - a n d th a t is w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m

started.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h e n d i d t h e l e t t e r f r o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y o r
d i d y o u s a y N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I f - if I a m n o t mi s ta k e n C h a ir i t w a s
20

J u n e / J u ly.
CHAIRPERSON: June July 2013?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : It i s i n A u g u s t . I t is a n A u g u s t l e t t e r. I t is
a n A u g u s t l e tt e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is A u g u s t . A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e h a v e a w i t n e s s w h o w il l b e d e a l i n g

Page 45 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
with that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N e x t w e e k Tu e s d a y C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Ye s .

A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 w a s th e fi n a l

withdrawal. They …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: They write you …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e f o r e w i t h a n i n t e n ti o n t o w it h d r a w

…
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B u t a lr e a d y t h e le t t e r f r o m N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y i n s tr u c t A g r ic u lt u r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o t to a ll o w u s to p r o c e e d h a d

a lr e a d y b e e n w r it t e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, b u t w h a t y o u - w h a t y o u d o s a y is s o is th e

p o s i ti o n t h e r e f o r e t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t w h a t to o k a w a y th e
o p p o r t u n i ty to i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o je c t w a s t h e in s tr u c ti o n t o s t o p …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 46 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

Using the fund?

N o t t h e n e w s p a p e r a r ti c l e .

Th e

n e w s p a p e r a r ti c l e b r o u g h t t h e is s u e t o th e a tt e n ti o n o f th e w o r l d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th e a t te n ti o n - o k a y. Th a t is c o r r e c t
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t i s n o t - i t i s - i t is s o m e th i n g e l s e .

Not that

one.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Not, not …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d j u s t f o r f u r th e r c l a r i ty C h a ir m a n . T h e
a m o u n t t h a t h a d b e e n a ll o c a t e d b y th e N a t io n a l O ff ic e t h a t is t h e C U S P.
We have talked about the CUSP Grant …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d - a n d w e h a v e a w i t n e s s w h o w il l d e a l
w i t h i t i n d e t a i l o n Tu e s d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t w a s 5 3 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

O f t h e 5 3 m ill i o n y o u k n o w Mr T h a b e t h e

y o u h a d a lr e a d y s p e n t 2 4 m i ll io n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w h a t t h e N a t io n a l O ff ic e s a i d w a s t h e
b a l a n c e s h o u l d b e a ll o c a t e d t o o n e o f th e o th e r p r o j e c ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 47 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ta k e i t a w a y fr o m t h is o n e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h e y g a v e y o u s p e c i f ic r e a s o n s w h y

t h e y w e r e a s k i n g y o u t o d o th a t a n d y o u k n o w t h a t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e a r e g o i n g t o g e t t o th a t le t t e r

C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e t h e r e a s o n s h a d t o d o w i t h w h e th e r t h e y m e t t h e t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e a n d R u r a l D e p a r t m e n t m e t t h e c o n d i ti o n s
t h a t w e r e a tt a c h e d t o th a t 5 3 m il li o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

In respect of what they were doing at

Vr e d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o i t a c tu a l ly h a s n o t h in g to d o t h e

Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P l e a s e M r T h a b e t h e . I t h a s n o t h i n g to d o
20

w i t h t h e n e w s p a p e r a r tic l e . P l e a s e M r T h a b e t h e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir - C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Can I - can I go back to that?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Remember

Page 48 of 115

th e

i n v e s t ig a ti o n

by

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y is q u o ti n g t h a t n e w s p a p e r a r t ic le .

Hence I am

r e fe r r i n g t o i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t j u s t b e c a u s e t h e y a r e q u o ti n g th a t a r tic l e

d o e s n o t m e a n i t i s b e c a u s e o f th a t a r tic l e th a t y o u w e r e n o t g iv e n a n
o p p o r t u n i ty to - t o i m p le m e n t y o u k n o w. T h e a r ti c l e b r o u g h t u p w h a t it
brought up.

I f y o u s a y w e w e r e i n s tr u c t e d t o s t o p a t a t i m e w h e n w e

w e r e s t il l i m p le m e n t in g a n d h a d w e b e e n g iv e n a c h a n c e to c o n ti n u e .
Yo u w o u l d h a v e s e e n w h a t w o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d . Yo u w o u ld
h a v e c o m e u p w i th s o m e t h i n g v e r y b e a u ti f u l t h a t i s s o m e th in g e ls e .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: That …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
the

department

that

N o w m y u n d e r s t a n d in g a g a i n is th a t i t is

i d e n ti f ie d

the

p o s s i b i li ty

of

e s ta b l is h i n g

a

p r o c e s s in g p l a n t . N o w t h is i s t h e m i lk p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t in th e p r o v i n c e .
I t is p a r t o f th e M o h u m a M o b u n g t h i n k i n g . A m I c o r r e c t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d y o u r v e r s io n is t h a t M r Z w a n e w o u l d
20

h a v e b e e n p a r t o f th is a t t h a t s tr a te g ic p o lic y le v e l - p a r t o f th a t
d is c u s s io n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h e id e n ti fi c a t io n o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y

P r o je c t a s a m e g a p r o je c t a g a i n M r Z w a n e w o u l d h a v e b e e n p a r t o f i n
t e r m s o f th e s tr a te g ic d e c is io n . I s t h is y o u r v e r s i o n ?

Page 49 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C h a ir t h e - t h e d e c i s i o n t o a d d
v a l u e c o m e s e v e n b e y o n d th e Fr e e S t a t e .

I t c o m e s fr o m th e N D P

d o c u m e n t i ts e l f . Th e N a ti o n a l D e v e l o p m e n t P la n t o s a y p r o v i n c e s li k e
t h e F r e e S t a t e a r e d o in g w e l l i n p r i m a r y a g r i c u l tu r e b u t w e a r e n o t
d o i n g m u c h in t e r m s o f a g r o p r o c e s s i n g a n d v a l u e a d d i n g .
H e n c e t h a t s tr a te g ic d e c i s i o n f l o w s t h r o u g h l ik e t h a t . T h a t T h a t is w h a t is a l s o a g r e e d in t h e Fr e e S t a te G r o w t h a n d D e v e l o p m e n t
P l a n t o s a y a g r ic u lt u r e m u s t b e g in a ls o t o d o a g r o p r o c e s s in g a n d a d d
v a l u e t o th e p r o d u c ts . H e n c e w h e n w e t h e n p r e s e n t e d t h a t i d e a it w a s
10

a c c e p ta b l e t h a t t h i s is w h a t w e - w e a r e s u p p o s e d to d o . T h e r e f o r e I
a g r e e C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Then at paragraph 42 of your 2018

a ffi d a v i t y o u s t a t e t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t s r e l a ti n g t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y
P r o je c t w e r e a p p r o v e d b y t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c i l a n d Mr Z w a n e w h o
t h e n w a s t h e M E C f o r A g r ic u lt u r e . Th a t i s y o u r e v i d e n c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Correct.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th is i s a c t u a lly w h a t y o u s a y …
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n y o u r a ff id a v i t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th e n i n y o u r 2 0 1 9 a ff i d a v i t w h i c h y o u

h a v e m a d e fo r t h e C o m m i s s i o n a t p a r a g r a p h 3 7 . 5 p a g e 1 3 y o u s t a t e
t h a t y o u d i d n o t p e r f o r m a n y fu n c t io n o r t a k e a d e c is io n i n r e s p e c t o f

Page 50 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d e x e c u ti o n o f th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t w i t h o u t
h a v i n g f o l l o w e d t h e p r e s c r ib e d d e p a r t m e n t a l p r o c e s s e s , n u m b e r o n e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

O r w i th o u t h a v i n g fi r s t o b t a in e d t h e

r e q u ir e d a p p r o v a ls a n d a u t h o r i ty fr o m t h e M E C A g r ic u l t u r e a n d E x c o .
T h a t is c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is w h a t y o u s a y i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Now I take it that when you speak about

t h e a p p r o v a ls a n d t h e a u th o r i ty o f t h e M E C f o r A g r i c u l t u r e y o u w o u l d
t h e r e b e r e f e r r i n g to M r Zw a n e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h e n w h e n s h e d id ta k e o v e r y o u

w o u ld t h e r e b e r e f e r r in g to M s Q a b a t h e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I w i ll j u s t l e a v e it a t th o s e t w o b e c a u s e

t h e y r e a l ly w e r e t h e r e d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d w e h a v e b e e n d e b a t in g .

So

t h a t s a y s t o m e th a t y o u d id o n e o f t w o t h in g s . Yo u e i t h e r a s k e d t h e m
20

f o r g u id a n c e a s y o u w e r e i m p l e m e n t in g o r y o u a s k e d fo r i n s tr u c t io n s a s
y o u w e r e i m p l e m e n t in g . W h ic h o f t h e t w o w a s i t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir

when

-

when

we

sought

a p p r o v a l o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l it is t h e M E C t h a t g o e s t o t h e
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il b e c a u s e th e M E C i s a m e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u t iv e
C o u n c il . S o w e - w e g e n e r a t e t h e - t h e s u b m i s s i o n t o t h e M E C . I f t h e

Page 51 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M E C a g r e e s t h e n h e g o e s a n d h e p r e s e n t s i t t o t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l
for approval.
H e n c e I a m s a y i n g i f h e w o u ld n o t h a v e a g r e e d h e w o u l d n o t
h a v e g o n e to p r e s e n t i t t o t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c il .

H e n c e I a m s a y in g

t h e w a y w e - w e p u tt i n g it t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t t h e q u e s t io n is w h e t h e r y o u a s k e d f o r

g u i d a n c e o r a s k e d - M s G c a b a s h e s a y s fo r a n in s t r u c t i o n b u t I g u e s s it
c o u l d a ls o b e s a i d a p p r o v a l b u t s h e s a i d i n s tr u c ti o n . S o w h a t d i d y o u
s e e k fr o m th e m ? Wa s i t g u id a n c e o r a n i n s tr u c t io n ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It - i t is g u i d a n c e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u a ls o s t a te i n y o u r 2 0 1 8 a ff i d a v i t a t

p a r a g r a p h 5 1 . 8 th a t :
“ M r Zw a n e r e c o m m e n d e d t o th e Pr o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y
t h e r e l e a s e o f th e r e q u ir e d fu n d i n g b e c a u s e i t w a s
necessary
provided

to
for

shift
in

th e

funds

between

2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3

p r o j e c ts

budget

of

as
the

d e p a r t m e n t. ”
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Ms Gcabashe.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e d o n o t fo r g e t t h a t q u e s ti o n . I ju s t w a n t t o a s k
something on the paragraph that you just read to Mr Thabethe a few
minutes ago.

Yo u s e e M r Th a b e t h e y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d t h a t w h e n y o u

a s k e d w h a t y o u s o u g h t f r o m t h e M E C a n d Ex c o w a s g u i d a n c e b u t t h a t
is

not

what

paragraph

37.5

says

w h ic h

Page 52 of 115

is

the

paragraph

that

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M s G c a b a s h e j u s t r e a d . It s a y s :
“ I d i d n o t p e r fo r m a n y f u n c t i o n a n d d i d n o t ta k e a n y
d e c is i o n … ”
L is t e n t o th is :
“ … i n r e s p e c t o f i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d e x e c u ti o n o f
t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . W i t h o u t … ”
I leave out other things.
“ … h a v i n g fir s t o b t a i n e d t h e r e q u ir e d a p p r o v a ls a n d
a u t h o r i ty fr o m t h e M E C A g r i c u l tu r e a n d E x c o . ”
Is t h e r e s o m e th i n g I a m m i s s i n g t h e r e w h e n I c o m p a r e w it h

10

what you have just said?

M a y b e I a m m i s s i n g s o m e t h in g . M a y b e t h e

t w o c a n b e r e c o n c i le d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir - C h a ir s h e g a v e t w o

o p t io n s a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In s t r u c t i o n o r g u id a n c e , y e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Guidance …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a i d g u id a n c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d I u n d e r s to o d y o u p u tt i n g t h e t h i r d
one.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I - y o u d id n o t …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I …
CHAIRPERSON:

I w a n t e d t o fo c u s o n w h a t s h e p u t t o y o u .

in s t r u c t i o n a n d g u i d a n c e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a i d g u id a n c e .

Page 53 of 115

The

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is - i t is m o r e o f g u i d a n c e b e c a u s e
w h a t w e r e q u e s t fr o m h i m is a p p r o v a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e t h e M E C ’s r e s p o n s ib il it y is

o v e r s ig h t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h e n w e a r e d o i n g i m p le m e n t a t i o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t i s t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e
- of the MEC.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o t h e - t h e - m y s t a te m e n t is

a c t u a ll y s a y i n g I w o u ld n o t d e c i d e to i m p l e m e n t a p r o j e c t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : U n t il s u c h t i m e t h a t th e M E C a n d t h e
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l a g r e e s w i th t h e p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th a t is w h a t m y s t a t e m e n t is a c t u a l ly
s a y in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l t h a t - t h a t m a y b e r i g h t b u t th a t m ig h t n o t that is not the same as guidance.

Yo u r e m e m b e r y o u j u s t s a i d a f e w

minutes ago …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.

Page 54 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d b e s e e k in g g u id a n c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u s e e k g u i d a n c e y o u a r e n o t s e e k i n g n e c e s s a r i ly
approval.

Yo u - y o u - g u id a n c e y o u c a n d is r e g a r d i f y o u h a v e g o o d

reasons.

Yo u k n o w b u t i f y o u s e e k a p p r o v a l i f y o u d o n o t h a v e

a p p r o v a l y o u c a n n o t p r o c e e d . Is it n o t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t g u id a n c e is n o t t h e s a m e a s a p p r o v a l . G u i d a n c e
is I t h i n k th is is h o w y o u s h o u l d h a n d l e i t b u t y o u a r e n o t b o u n d . Yo u
10

can - you can reflect on it.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n t h e e n d y o u m ig h t d e c id e n o , n o . Th a t i s g o i n g t o
b e p r o b l e m a ti c a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o g iv e s t h e g u i d a n c e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t
it is g u id a n c e . I t is n o t a n in s tr u c ti o n . T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f th e
two.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u h a v e th e s a m e u n d e r s ta n d i n g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I d i d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

If - if approval would have been one

o f t h e o p ti o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Then it would be the correct one. I - I
k n o w C h a ir w e h a v e - I h a v e b e e n i n tr o u b l e w i th t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r o f
not answering the question.

Page 55 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja.

So you - so you say if - if the options you

w e r e g i v e n i n c l u d e d a p p r o v a l y o u w o u l d h a v e c h o s e n a p p r o v a l?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A p p r o v a l. T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t g u id a n c e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t g u id a n c e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because - because guidance must be
in my u n d e r s t a n d in g c o u ld b e o v e r a r c h i n g o v e r - a ls o a p p r o v a l b u t t h e t h e m o s t c o r r e c t o n e is a p p r o v a l .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e w h a t y o u c o u l d h a v e s a id is n o n e o f t h e

a b o v e . I t is a p p r o v a l . Yo u c o u l d h a v e s a i d t h a t. Is it n o t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

I h a v e - I h a v e tr o u b l e

b e f o r e w i th t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r o f n o t a n s w e r i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

I - I c a n s e e th a t y o u a r e m o r e s c a r y o f b e in g i n

tr o u b le w i t h - w i t h C o u n s e l t h a n w i t h m e . S o - s o y o u - y o u a r e s a y i n g
therefore now when you approach them you were seeking approval?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A p p r o v a l. T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t - n o t g u id a n c e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d - a n d w e a r e s t il l ta lk in g a b o u t th e

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f a r e s o l u ti o n t a k e n b y E x c o . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I ju s t w a n t to - I d o n o t w a n t t o g e t th in g s
m ix e d u p .

Page 56 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is w h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s , b u t - b u t C h a i r th a t - t h a t

s t a te m e n t i n a ffi d a v i t r e f e r s to a p p r o v a l b e fo r e t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n . It
is n o t r e fe r r i n g t o a p p r o v a l a f t e r t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n b e c a u s e y o u h a v e
r e c e i v e d th e ir a p p r o v a l . Yo u d o n o t a s k f o r a n o t h e r a p p r o v a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So just by way of example that resolution
o f 1 3 J u n e 2 0 1 2 i f t h e r e w a s a n y t h i n g y o u d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d th a t w a s
10

in t h a t r e s o l u ti o n y o u w o u l d a g a in g o b a c k t o t h e M E C a n d s a y c a n y o u
e x p l a i n w h a t y o u m e a n t b y C la u s e 3 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is i s w h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is i m p o r ta n t t o d i ffe r e n ti a t e t h a t

b e t w e e n a d m i n i s tr a t iv e d e c is i o n s s u c h a s t h e d e v i a ti o n d e c is i o n t h a t
y o u t o o k M r Th a b e t h e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

B e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d m a t t e r s o n th e

d e v i a ti o n d e c is i o n t h a t y o u t o o k t h a t w a s y o u r d e c is i o n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. I j u s t w a n t e d th a t c l a r i t y s o t h a t w e
d o n o t g e t t h i n g s m ix e d u p . E x c e ll e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u r e m e m b e r e a r l ie r o n I s a id I d i d n o t k n o w

w h a t M r Zw a n e h a s in m i n d i n t a lk i n g a b o u t a n d u s i n g th e w o r d

Page 57 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
in t e r fe r e . I d id n o t in t e r fe r e a n d i n h o w y o u r e s p o n d e d b u t I - I g a i n e d
t h e i m p r e s s i o n fr o m w h a t M s G c a b a s h e r e a d a s p a r t o f h is v e r s i o n t h a t
h e w a s s a y in g h is r o le w a s l i m it e d to p o li c y.
O n c e it w a s i m p le m e n t a ti o n h e w o u l d n o t g e t i n v o lv e d , b u t t h i s
p a r a g r a p h s u g g e s ts to m e t h a t h e w a s a s f u l ly i n v o l v e d i n t h e
i m p l e m e n ta t io n

at

la s t

in

the

taking

of

decisions

r e la t in g

to

i m p l e m e n ta t io n , a s y o u w e r e , if i t i s tr u e , b e c a u s e y o u s a y I d id n o t
p e r f o r m a n y fu n c t io n a n d d i d n o t t a k e a n y d e c is i o n in r e s p e c t o f t h e
i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d e x e c u t i o n o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o j e c t w i t h o u t t h e
10

a p p r o v a l o f th e M E C a n d E x c o ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir t h a t’s

why I was then

q u a li fy in g t h a t s t a te m e n t , t h a t th a t s t a t e m e n t r e f e r s to m e i m p le m e n ti n g
a n y p r o j e c ts w i t h o u t a p p r o v a l o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c i l , t h a t is m y –
h o w I p u t i t , i t w a s n o t r e f e r r i n g t o d e c is i o n s d u r i n g t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o , n o Mr T h a b e t h e , in t h i s p a r a g r a p h , d o y o u

h a v e t h e p a r a g r a p h i n fr o n t o f y o u ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S i r i t is i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t , i t i s E X H I B I T

H H 1 0 Vo l u m e A , y o u w i ll f in d i t a t p a g e 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

T h a t is y o u r a ff i d a v i t b e fo r e t h is C o m m is s i o n w h i c h

y o u d e p o s e d to in A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 , p a g e 1 3 p a r a g r a p h 3 7 .5 .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Can you – have you found it?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I h a v e i t C h a ir.

Ye s , y o u s e e i t d o e s n ’ t t a l k a b o u t m a n y p r o j e c t s , i t

t a lk s a b o u t d e c i s i o n s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e i m p le m e n t a t i o n a n d e x e c u ti o n o f

Page 58 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t , s o a s t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n h a p p e n s d e c i s i o n s
h a v e t o b e t a k e n a n d w h a t i t s a y s is t h a t y o u d i d n o t t a k e a n y d e c i s i o n s
in r e l a ti o n t o t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h is p r o j e c t w i th o u t – t h a t is h o w a t
le a s t I r e a d i t , I m a y b e m is t a k e n w i t h o u t th e i r a p p r o v a l .

It may be

t h a t i t m a y b e th a t i t s h o u ld n ’t b e r e a d l it e r a l ly b e c a u s e t h e n m a y b e it
w i ll b e v e r y d i ff ic u l t to d o a n y t h i n g if y o u h a d t o g o b a c k t o t h e m a l l t h e
ti m e , b u t t h a t ’s w h a t I r e a d t h e p a r a g r a p h to m e a n a n d w h e n I r e a d i t
a n d I b e a r i n m i n d w h a t y o u j u s t s a id a n d w h a t h e s a i d a b o u t t h e
o ffic i a ls b e i n g in v o lv e d in i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d h e b e i n g i n v o lv e d i n th e
10

p o li c y o n ly I s e e m t o fi n d – I d o n ’ t f in d m u c h h a r m o n y, b u t m a y b e th a t I
a m m is s i n g s o m e t h in g , d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h e r e I c o m e f r o m ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I , I , I h e a r y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

My understanding when I put – it

m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n p u t m a y b e e x a c t ly th e w a y I w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d i t
t o b e , b u t m y e x p l a n a t i o n i n th is is s a y i n g w h a t I a m e x p l a in in g , it is
n o t m e a n i n g t h a t d u r i n g t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n I h a d to c a ll a n d a s k f o r
d e c is i o n , n o i t is n o t s a y i n g t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h a t ’s fi n e I w ill l e a v e i t t o M s G c a b a s h e t o m a k e
20

o f i t w h a t s h e m a y e i t h e r n o w o r l a t e r. Ye s ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a i r m a n w h a t I w i ll s a y is t h a t t h e

c o n te x t b e i n g th e p r e s c r i b e d d e p a r t m e n t a l p r o c e s s e s a n d th e a p p r o v a l s
a n d a u t h o r i t ie s t h a t li e w i t h t h o s e e x e c u t i v e o ffic ia ls I u n d e r s t o o d th is
t o m e a n th a t w h e r e th a t w a s r e q u ir e d y o u w o u l d g o a n d g e t th o s e
a p p r o v a l s b u t w h e r e i t w a s n ’ t r e q u ir e d , i f i t w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s

Page 59 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
within your remit you would just go ahead and do what you needed to
d o , t h is is h o w I u n d e r s to o d i t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

kind

W e ll

what

of

a p p r o v a ls

in

r e l a ti o n

to

i m p l e m e n ta t io n d e c is io n s w o u l d b e r e q u i r e d o f t h e p o li ti c a l h e a d , t h e
M E C o r E x c o fo r th is k i n d o f , f o r t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h is p r o je c t ,
a ft e r t h e Ex c o h a d g iv e n t h e a p p r o v a l t h a t w e h a v e a l w a y s b e e n t a l k i n g
a b o u t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:
10

C h a ir t h is p a r a g r a p h i s r e f e r r in g to

t h a t i n i t ia l a p p r o v a l o f h a v i n g a g r e e d t h a t th e s e p r o je c ts c a n b e
b u d g e t e d fo r a n d t h a t t h e p r o j e c t c a n b e i m p l e m e n te d s o th a t ’s w h a t
t h is p a r a g r a p h i s r e f e r r i n g t o , y o u w il l n o t b e a b l e t o i m p l e m e n t w i th o u t
o b t a i n in g t h e r e q u ir e d a p p r o v a l , s o t h e r e q u ir e d a p p r o v a l i s t h e
e x e c u tiv e c o u n c il a p p r o v a l t o d o t h e p r o j e c t a n d a ls o t o h a v e t h e
b u d g e t a ll o c a t e d to t h e p r o j e c t , s o y o u c a n n o t d o t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n
w i t h o u t h a v i n g o b ta in e d t h o s e r e q u i r e d a p p r o v a ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o it r e f e r s t o – y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o t h e a p p r o v a l th a t
h a d a lr e a d y b e e n g iv e n , t h a t w a s g iv e n f ir s t b e f o r e t h e p r o j e c t c a m e t o
y o u f o r i m p l e m e n ta t io n ?

20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , I t h in k le t ’s c o n t in u e , I t h i n k I w i ll h a v e f u r t h e r

q u e s t io n s a b o u t t h a t , b u t l e t ’s c o n ti n u e a n d l o o k a t i t o v e r n i g h t , i t m a y
b e t h a t i t m a y b e t h a t i t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r ily r e fl e c t w h a t y o u i n te n d e d ,
b u t t o m e i t d o e s n ’ t s e e m t o s a y w h a t y o u s a y, w h a t y o u ’ r e s a y i n g i t
s a y s y o u k n o w, b u t l e t m e lo o k a t t h e w h o l e a ffi d a v i t o v e r n i g h t a n d t h e n

Page 60 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
if n e e d b e w e c a n ta lk a b o u t i t t o m o r r o w.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR

MBANA

PETER

THABETHE:

But

th a t

is

my

i n te n ti o n

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is y o u r i n t e n t io n ja , w h e t h e r o r n o t i t r e f le c t s it
c o r r e c t ly i s a n o t h e r m a t te r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a i r m a n w it h y o u r l e a v e I j u s t w a n t t o

a g a in g i v e c o n te x t t o w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t p a r a g r a p h to m e a n a n d
w h a t Mr T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e i s , w h ic h i s t h a t E x c o r e s o l u t i o n a n d I w il l
ju s t v e r y q u ic k ly s a y w h a t E x c o a p p r o v e d w a s o n e , th e i m p le m e n t a ti o n
o f th e p r o p o s e d Vr e d e D a ir y A g r i- b u s i n e s s p r o je c t .

So in relation to

t h a t h e w o u ld h a v e t o h a v e a r e l a t i o n s h i p w it h t h e M E C .

Exco

a p p r o v e d t h e s o u r c i n g o f a d d i ti o n a l f u n d i n g o f R 8 4 m i ll io n a n d i n a g a in
in r e l a t i o n to t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e d is c u s s io n s a b o u t w h e r e t h a t w o u l d
c o m e fr o m b e c a u s e it w a s n o t b u d g e t e d f o r.
A m I c o r r e c t?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

That is correct.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n e x t o n e th a t Ex c o a g r e e d o n w a s t h e
D e p a r t m e n t s h o u ld m e e t t h e c o s ts a n d w i ll l a t e r b e r e fu n d e d a n d
e n g a g e o th e r r e l e v a n t d e p a r t m e n ts .

A g a i n t h a t is w h a t y o u w o u l d b e

t a lk in g t o t h e M E C a b o u t, b u t i f i t ’s a r e s o l u ti o n t h a t h a d b e e n ta k e n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

Page 61 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d s o y o u w o u l d c o n s u lt h i m o n t h a t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e n t h e m a t t e r w o u ld b e f u r th e r

d is c u s s e d in t h e Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e w h i c h is p a r t o f m y n e x t q u e s t i o n
because

again

the

P r o v in c i a l

Tr e a s u r y

was

important

to

the

i m p l e m e n ta t io n , t h a t’s a g a i n a n a p p r o v a l b y E x c o , c o r r e c t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

That is correct.
T h e n th e F D C , t h e Fr e e S t a t e S ta t e

D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n , s h o u l d a ls o p l a y a r o l e , e s p e c i a lly fr o m t h e
10

b u s i n e s s p o i n t o f v i e w.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u w e r e a g a i n d i s c o u r a g e d to e n g a g e in
d is c u s s io n s w i t h th e m .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h e n th e l a s t i te m is th a t f o r t h e n e x t
t h r e e y e a r s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e w i ll h a v e t o p a y R 1 3 0 – i t
s h o u l d b e m il li o n i t’s w r i t te n a s a t h o u s a n d h e r e , R 11 3 m il li o n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n r e s p e c t o f t h is p r o j e c t .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

S o t h a t is w h a t I u n d e r s to o d t o b e t h e

c o n te x t o f fo ll o w i n g p r e s c r i b e d p r o c e d u r e s , c o n s u l ti n g a s a n d w h e n y o u
n e e d e d t o , ju s t i n r e la t io n t o w h a t t h e y h a d a p p r o v e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I j u s t w a n t e d t o g iv e y o u th is d o c u m e n t a s

Page 62 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
w e ll C h a ir m a n to r e a d a t y o u r l e is u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e s o lu t io n ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h ic h is t h e r e s o l u ti o n it i s i n y o u r fil e

C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t p a g e i n m y f il e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s r e f e r e n c e f il e A C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t is a p o o r c o p y, I k n o w w e h a v e a b e t t e r
o n e e ls e w h e r e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, w h a t p a g e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is p a g e 3 2 3 C h a ir m a n a n d a t a la t e r

s t a g e w e w i ll t e l l y o u w h e r e y o u c a n f i n d a b e t t e r – i t is le g ib le , b u t
t h e r e i s a b e t t e r c o p y w e b e l ie v e in t h e c o u r t r e c o r d f il e . B u t it is v e r y
c le a r t h a t t h e s e a r e t h e i t e m s t h e y h a d a p p r o v e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d I u n d e r s t o o d . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k w h a t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t is a ls o t o ju s t r e a d

s o m e o f t h e p a r a g r a p h s i n t h e a ff i d a v i t s u r r o u n d b e f o r e a n d a f te r t h a t
p a r a g r a p h , to s e e w h e t h e r i t f i ts i n w i t h w h a t M r T h a b e t h e s a y s .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir m a n . I . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o n th e f a c e o f i t i t d o e s s e e m t o b e p r o b l e m a ti c to
m e b u t I m u s t ju s t c h e c k , i t m a y b e t h a t o n c e I h a v e c h e c k e d m y
p r o b le m w il l g o a w a y.

Page 63 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I s h o u ld a l s o r e m e m b e r C h a ir m a n t h a t

m u c h a s w e h a v e h a d s t u d i e d t h e d o c u m e n t s y o u h a v e r e a d th e m b u t
n o t s tu d i e d th e m t h e w a y w e h a v e h a d t o , b e c a u s e y o u a r e fa c e d w it h
s o m a n y m a t te r s i n o n e w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja , ja , t h a t ’s fi n e j a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w i ll t a k e t h a t i n to a c c o u n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d s o – C h a ir m a n my c o ll e a g u e s a y s

page `175 of the same bundle has a better copy of that document, just
10

a s l ig h tl y m o r e l e g i b l e .
CHAIRPERSON: The same being?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e , th e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: The reference bundle?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e A .
CHAIRPERSON: A.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s t h e p a g e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s j u s t a li t t le m o r e l e g i b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s t h e p a g e ?

20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 175.
CHAIRPERSON:

1 7 5 . A n d t h a t is w h e r e e v e r y th in g r e a lly s t a r ts i n a

sense.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I h a v e g o t i t . Ye s ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . A n d t h i s is w h y i n
t h e s a m e c o n te x t a n d a g a in c o r r e c t e v e n m e i f I a m w r o n g i n m y

Page 64 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
u n d e r s t a n d in g , y o u s t a t e a t p a r a g r a p h 5 1 . 8 o f th e 2 0 1 8 a ff id a v i t t h a t M r
Z w a n e r e c o m m e n d e d t o t h e Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y th e r e le a s e o f th e
r e q u ir e d f u n d in g b e c a u s e i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o s h i f t fu n d s b e t w e e n
p r o j e c ts .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A s p r o v i d e d fo r i n t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 b u d g e t
of the Department.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y y o u ’r e r e a d in g fr o m w h e r e n o w ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n s o if w e g o t o th e 2 0 1 8 a ff id a v i t
10

o f M r T h a b e t h e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e r e . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: At paragraph 51.8 Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In w h ic h b u n d l e is i t a g a i n ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is again the very same – my apologies
C h a ir. I f y o u g o t o p a g e 11 4 C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Of which Bundle?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f B u n d l e 8 , M r T h a b e t h e ’s s t a t e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 8 ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

20

11 4 C h a i r ma n , s o t h a t is th e 2 0 1 8

a ffi d a v i t , s o w e s ta r t w i th t h e 2 0 1 9 a ffi d a v i t t h e n w e h a v e t h e 2 0 1 8
a ffi d a v i t , t h e la s t a ff id a v i t i s t h e 2 0 1 7 a ffi d a v i t .

W e a r e c u r r e n t ly

lo o k in g a t t h e 2 0 1 8 a ffi d a v i t a n d t h e p a r ti c u la r p a r a g r a p h i s o n p a g e
11 4 o f B u n d l e A , o f H H 1 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I h a v e g o t i t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

Page 65 of 115

Again you can

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
r e fe r, a n d C h a ir m a n y o u k n o w t h a t y o u h a v e g o t a b e t t e r c o p y r i g h t a t
t h e e n d b e c a u s e th e o n e , b u t i t is a ls o c a ll e d p a g e o n e , r i g h t a t t h e e n d
w e p u t i n a b e t t e r c o p y, a m o r e l e g i b l e c o p y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, but this one looks legible.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O h i f y o u a r e h a p p y w i t h i t C h a ir m a n th a t
is f i n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f th is o n e is le g ib le m a y b e t h e o n e t h a t w a s

s u p p o s e d to b e p u t i n l a t e r w a s p u t i n h e r e . T h is q u i t e a . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Legible.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y e s I h a v e g o t 11 4 .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

So we are looking at paragraph 51.8

C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d i f I mi g h t r e a d i t in t o t h e r e c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Then I haven’t got I am not on the same page as you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M P T 11 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is p a g e 11 4 I h a v e i s o f – r e f e r s B u n d l e s H .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o C h a ir m a n H H 1 0 , H H 1 0 Vo lu m e A , y o u
w e r e r e a d i n g t h e o th e r p a r a g r a p h fr o m th e F E fr o m t h e s a m e fi l e
20

C h a ir m a n . S o it ’s H H 1 0 Vo l u m e A , p a g e 11 4 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

I f I m a y a s s i s t t h e C h a ir, t h e n u m b e r

h a s b e e n . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I h a v e ju s t f o u n d i t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e y h a v e b e e n d u p l ic a te d t o w a r d s

t h e e n d t h e c l e a r e r y o u w il l s e e t h e n u m b e r r e p e a ts a g a in fr o m 0 9 9 .

Page 66 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, I f o u n d 11 4 w h i c h is h a s g o t p a r a g r a p h 5 0

something.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: That must be the correct one.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Is t h a t a c le a r c o p y th a t y o u h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a c l e a r c o p y a s w e l l.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, y e s , t h a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

C h a ir m a n j u s t f o r c o n te x t w h a t M r

T h a b e th e w a s d e a li n g w it h h e r e w a s h e w a s e x p l a i n i n g h o w if y o u l o o k
at

the

e a r li e r

pages

very

q u ic k ly

he

was

explaining

how

the

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h i s p a r ti c u la r d a ir y p r o j e c t to o k p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a p p e n e d o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s , s o a t 5 1 . 7 h e s p e a k s o f t h e

i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d th e f u n d i n g s tr u c t u r e a s e x p l a i n e d i n t h e p r o p o s a ls ,
a n d h e r e fe r s t o t h a t E x c o r e s o lu t io n o f t h e 1 3 t h o f J u n e . T h e n a t 5 1 .8
h e s a y s f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e l e a s e o f t h e r e q u ir e d fu n d i n g i t w a s
n e c e s s a r y t o s h i f t f u n d s b e tw e e n p r o j e c ts , a s p r o v i d e d f o r i n t h e
2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 b u d g e t o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t, w h i c h tr a n s f e r w a s a p p r o v e d b y
20

t h e F r e e S t a te P r o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y o n t h e 2 0 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 0 .

The

r e q u e s t w h i c h w a s m a d e t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y i n t h is r e g a r d w a s
n o t o n ly r e c o m m e n d e d b y m e , b u t b y t h e M E C f o r A g r ic u l t u r e , a n d t h e n
h e s a y s th e r e is a n a p p r o v a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o m y q u e s ti o n in r e l a t i o n t o t h i s M r

Page 67 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
T h a b e th e i s I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d th a t y o u h a d t o tr y a n d a c c o m m o d a t e th e
fi n d i n g o f fu n d i n g .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Of funding yes.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s , s o m y q u e s ti o n is w h a t r o l e th e r e fo r e
d i d t h e M E C p l a y i n a s s is ti n g y o u i n e i t h e r g iv in g a p p r o v a l f o r t h e
s h i f t in g o f f u n d s o r g i v i n g g u i d a n c e o n w h e r e e ls e y o u c o u l d fi n d f u n d s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h e a s s i s ta n c e o f t h e M E C –

o u r r e s p o n s i b il i ty w ill b e t o fi n d w h e r e t h e f u n d s w il l b e a ll o c a te d , o n c e
w e h a v e f o u n d th e m o n e y t h e n w e m a k e a s u b m is s io n t h a t t h e M E C
10

a p p r o v e s b e c a u s e t h e b u d g e t is g a z e t te d , h e m u s t th e n a p p r o v e s o t h a t
w e s u b m i t t o Tr e a s u r y f o r t h e s h i f ti n g o f t h o s e f u n d s , b e c a u s e w e a r e
c h a n g in g th e g a z e t t e , a n d t h a t a p p r o v a l w a s th e n r e c o m m e n d e d b y h i m
b e c a u s e i n t h a t in s ta n c e th e a p p r o v a l m u s t c o m e fr o m Tr e a s u r y,

he

m u s t r e c o m m e n d to Tr e a s u r y. T h a t is w h a t I a m tr y in g to s a y h e r e th a t
h e a ls o r e c o m m e n d e d fo r th e a p p r o v a l t h a t w e t h e n s h i f t t h o s e fu n d s ,
a n d t h a t li n e i t e m c o m e s fr o m t h e E x c o r e s o l u ti o n th a t w e w e r e
r e q u ir e d t h e n to f in d th o s e f u n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t a g a i n th e f i n e d i s ti n c ti o n th e r e i s t h a t
20

t h a t w a s n ’ t t h e d a y t o d a y i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h e p r o j e c t , y o u w e r e s ti ll
a t a m o r e s tr a te g ic l e v e l m a k i n g s u r e y o u h a d fu n d i n g f o r t h e p r o j e c t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A g a in I h a v e t o l d y o u t h e c o n t e x t i n w h ic h
I a m i n te r r o g a ti n g is s u e s is I a m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d i m p l e m e n ta t io n b y
t h e Ex e c u ti v e a n d b y t h e a d mi n is tr a ti o n , I a m s ti ll d o in g t h a t .

Page 68 of 115

Can I

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
m o v e o n t o th e i d e n t i fic a ti o n o f la n d f o r t h e d a i r y p r o j e c t Mr T h a b e t h e ?
M r Zw a n e ’s v e r s io n i s th a t h e w a s n o t d ir e c tl y i n v o lv e d i n t h e
id e n t i fic a t io n o f la n d f o r th e d a ir y p r o j e c t , h e w a s a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s
la n d a v a il a b l e b u t th a t ’s a b o u t i t , y o u r e v id e n c e h o w e v e r b e f o r e

the

C o m m i s s i o n w a s t h a t i t w a s M r Zw a n e w h o t o l d y o u a b o u t th e
a v a i la b ili t y o f l a n d a n d s a i d t h a t y o u s h o u ld t a lk t o t h e P h u m e le l e
M u n i c i p a li t y a b o u t w h a t c o u l d b e m a d e a v a i la b le , s o t h e r e is a b it o f a
d i ff e r e n c e t h e r e , w h i c h I t h i n k i t w o u l d b e u s e f u l f o r y o u to c l e a r u p .
H e s a y s h e w a s n o t d ir e c t ly i n v o lv e d , a n d y o u s a y i n fa c t h e i s t h e o n e
10

w h o t o l d y o u w h e r e y o u c o u ld g o a n d t a l k t o p e o p l e a b o u t l a n d .
I f y o u c a n c l e a r it u p , i f n o t w e w i ll p u t t h e q u e s ti o n t o Mr
Zwane.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , t h a n k s C h a ir, I t h i n k i t ’s a m a t te r

o f s e m a n t ic s , b e c a u s e w e w e r e l o o k i n g fo r la n d a n d th e n h e a d v is e d u s
t h a t ta lk t o t h e m u n ic i p a l i ty, I a m a w a r e t h e y h a v e l a n d .

Whether we

w o u ld c a ll th a t i d e n t i fic a ti o n o r n o t I a m n o t s u r e b u t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h a t ’s w h a t h a p p e n e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s w h a t h a p p e n e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR

MBANA PETER

THABETHE:

And

when

we

engaged

the

m u n i c i p a li t y t h e r e w a s a n i n d i c a t io n t h a t y e s in d e e d w e d o h a v e t h e
la n d a n d t h e n w e s ta r t e d t h o s e n e g o t ia t io n s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o y o u r e v i d e n c e r e m a i n s th e s a m e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

Thank you.

Page 69 of 115

Mr Z w a n e in h is a ffi d a v i t

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
t h e n d e a ls w i th th e tr a v e l t o I n d ia w h i c h h e h a d to a p p r o v e a n d
r e c o m m e n d to t h e P r e m ie r t o a p p r o v e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D o y o u r e m e m b e r th a t m e m o ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
Now he seemed to be under the

i m p r e s s io n t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g t o In d i a w i t h o t h e r G o v e r n m e n t
o ffic i a ls ,

where

would

he

have

gotten

th is

impression?

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f h i s a ff i d a v i t is M r N a r ij a n i s o n e p e r s o n a n d h e
10

s p e a k s a b o u t N a r i ja n g o i n g w i t h y o u , i n f a c t h e s a y s h e r e c o m m e n d e d
N a r i ja n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t o v e r a n d a b o v e th a t h e s e e m s to h a v e
b e e n u n d e r th e i m p r e s s io n th a t y o u w e r e g o i n g w i t h o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t
o ffic i a ls . H a d th a t b e e n t h e o r i g i n a l p l a n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I a m s p e a k i n g u n d e r c o r r e c ti o n

h e r e , h e m i g h t h a v e c o n f u s e d o th e r tr ip s w i t h t h i s o n e , t h a t c o u l d b e
v e r y e a s y b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e o th e r t r i p s w h e r e I w e n t w i th g o v e r n m e n t
o ffic i a ls , s o . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : To I n d ia n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

To In d ia n y e s .

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o y o u r s h o r t a n s w e r is y o u d id n o t

in d i c a t e to h i m t h a t y o u w o u l d b e g o i n g w i t h o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t o ff ic i a ls ?
Yo u d i d n o t s a y th a t to h i m ?

Page 70 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

C h a ir t h e s u b m i s s i o n th a t g o e s t o th e

E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l fo r t h e a p p r o v a l w o u ld n o t g o t h e r e w i th o u t g o i n g
t h r o u g h h i m , h e m u s t s ig n i t b e f o r e i t g o e s f o r a p p r o v a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t s t a te d e x a c tl y w h o y o u w o u l d g o w i t h ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o w o u ld i t t h e b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t h e c o u l d n o t

h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g w i t h a n y b o d y o t h e r t h a n w h o e v e r w a s
w r i t t e n i n t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t h e a p p r o v e d ?

After approving that

d o c u m e n t a ti o n h e c o u ld n o t h a v e t h o u g h t y o u w e r e g o in g w i th a n y b o d y
10

who had not been approved?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H e w o u l d n o t h a v e m is s e d i t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h y a r e y o u r u n n i n g a w a y fr o m t h e w a y I a m
p u t t in g i t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

(laughing)

H e – y o u b e in g th e H O D o f h is d e p a r t m e n t y o u ,

e v e r y b o d y w i th i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h o n e e d e d to g o o v e r s e a s w o u l d
have needed his approval?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Th e r e fo r e o n c e h e h a d a p p r o v e d w h a t y o u g a v e h i m

r e fl e c t in g w h o y o u w o u l d b e g o in g w it h h e c o u l d n o t h a v e t h o u g h t t h e r e
w a s s o m e b o d y e ls e fr o m w i th i n th e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t y o u w o u l d b e g o i n g
with, other than those he had approved?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , e x c e p t th e f a c t th a t h e

r e c o m m e n d s a l s o C h a ir, h e d o e s n o t a p p r o v e , h e r e c o m m e n d s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h a t I a m s a y in g is n o b o d y w o u l d b e

Page 71 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
a p p r o v e d b y E x c o o r b y t h e Pr e m i e r t h a t h a d n o t g o n e t h r o u g h h i m ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e m a y o r m a y n o t b e m is t a k e n b u t a s fa r a s th e
p o i n t a f te r h e h a d a p p r o v e d t h e r e w a s c l a r i ty a s to w h o w a s g o in g .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s g o i n g , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d th e r e w e r e n o o t h e r o ffic i a ls , o t h e r t h a n t h e

p e o p l e m e n ti o n e d i n th e d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t h e w a s h a p p y w i th ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Can I just explore one element of your

d is c u s s io n w i t h t h e C h a i r m a n , a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t e v e n i n r e s p e c t o f
ju n i o r o ffi c i a l s , n o y o u a r e t h e m o s t s e n i o r p u b lic s e r v a n t , s o o f c o u r s e
t h e M E C m u s t a p p r o v e y o u r tr a v e l, y o u c a n ’ t a p p r o v e y o u r o w n tr a v e l ,
b u t i f y o u w e r e g o i n g w i t h a D ir e c t o r o r w i t h a C h i e f D ir e c t o r w o u l d
w o u ld t h e M E C a l s o h a v e t o a p p r o v e t h o s e p e o p le t r a v e ll in g w it h y o u o r
w o u ld y o u a s t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t a p p r o v e t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r o r
D ir e c t o r tr a v e l li n g ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir i n li n e w i t h t h e c o s t

c o n ta in m e n t m e r g e r s a d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n t h a t a l l o v e r s e a s tr a v e l m u s t
20

b e a p p r o v e d b y th e P r e m i e r, ir r e s p e c ti v e o f a l e v e l t h a t w a s t h e
d e c is i o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e y c o u l d o n ly b e ta k e n to t h e P r e m i e r b y t h e

relevant MEC.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

By t h e r e l e v a n t M E C .

H m m , s o n o m a t t e r h o w j u n i o r a n o ff ic i a l i n y o u r

Page 72 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
d e p a r t m e n t w a s i f h e w a s g o in g to g o t o I n d i a w it h y o u t h e M E C w o u ld
have seen that name.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r Th a b e t h e th e n f o r s o m e r e a s o n a g a i n

M r Z w a n e s e e ms t o h a v e b e e n u n d e r th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t y o u w e r e
m e e ti n g o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t o ff ic i a ls i n In d i a , a r e y o u a b l e t o t h r o w a n y
li g h t o n t h a t a s p e c t?
MR
10

MBANA

PETER

T H A B E T H E:

C h a ir

I

can’t

because

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t t h e a p p r o v a l w a s o n t h e b a s i s o f a s u b m is s i o n
t h a t h e r e c o m m e n d e d t o t h e P r e m ie r f o r a p p r o v a l , h e n c e I w a s s a y in g
in th e b e g i n n i n g m a y b e h e m ig h t h a v e m is t a k e n th is tr i p w i th o th e r tr i p
b u t it s h o u l d n ’ t b e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s a y t h a t t h e a p p r o v a l o f t h e tr ip i n c lu d e d ,

e n t a i l e d t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e , th e d o c u m e n t a t i o n , th e s u b m i s s i o n w o u l d
have told him what the purpose of the trip was.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A n d w h o th e p e o p l e w e r e t h a t y o u w e r e p l a n n i n g to

meet in India.
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o h e w o u ld n ’t h a v e h a d t o g u e s s w h o y o u w o u ld

have to meet.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

That is correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a n y o n e t h a t w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e t r i p ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

Page 73 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f t h e r e w e r e g o v e r n m e n t o ffic i a ls th e y w o u ld

h a v e s t a t e d in t h e ir s u b m is s io n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d if t h e y w e r e n o t s t a te d in t h e s u b m is s io n i t

m e a n s th e y w e r e n o t p a r t o f t h e p l a n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u s e e b e c a u s e w h e n h e s u g g e s t e d t h a t
M r N a r a ja n a c c o m p a n y y o u , a s I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d h is v e r s io n i t w a s
10

b e c a u s e o n e h e t h o u g h t th a t w i t h o u t a p r o to c o l p e r s o n , r e m e m b e r y o u
h a d e x p l a i n e d t h e w h o l e p r o t o c o l i s s u e t o u s l a s t ti m e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

That is correct.

N o w M r Z w a n e th o u g h t th a t w i th o u t a

p r o t o c o l p e r s o n y o u w o u l d n o t g e t th e b e s t o u tc o m e fr o m t h e m e e ti n g
you would be attending, that is the one reason?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e s e c o n d r e a s o n w a s h e s a y s t h a t th e y
d i d n o t w a n t t o b e d i s a p p o i n te d o r d is a p p o i n t t h e fo r e ig n g o v e r n m e n t
o ffic i a ls .
20

I a m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d th a t c l e a r l y, I t h o u g h t y o u m ig h t

b e a b l e t o e x p l a i n t h is , t h a t h e d id n o t w a n t y o u to b e d i s a p p o i n t e d o r
t h e p e o p l e y o u w e r e m e e ti n g t o b e d i s a p p o i n te d h e n c e t h e s e l e c t io n o f
M r N a r a j a n t o a c c o m p a n y y o u . Is th is w h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

C h a ir I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n h o w h e

u n d e r s t o o d it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w h a t – w e ll y o u c a n c o m m e n t t o a c e r t a i n e x t e n t

Page 74 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
if fo r h i s i m p r e s s i o n o f w h o y o u – h e s a y s h e t h o u g h t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o
m e e t , h e a d v a n c e s a c e r t a i n r e a s o n t o s u p p o r t t h a t , y o u m a y b e a b le t o
say no but that doesn’t make sense because of A, B, C, it couldn’t have
– t h a t c o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n tr u e , s o I a m ju s t s a y in g a s I u n d e r s t a n d h e
s e e m s t o s a y s o m e th in g t h a t s e e m s to e x p l a i n w h y h e m a y h a v e h a d a
certain impression in terms of who you were going to meet.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I h e a r y o u C h a ir . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y o r m a y n o t b e a b l e t o I a m j u s t – I a m j u s t
s a y in g i t is n o t tr u e n e c e s s a r i ly t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t b e – e v e r b e a b l e t o
10

c o m m e n t . I t d e p e n d s o n w h a t y o u a r e b e i n g t o l d . Yo u m i g h t e v a lu a t e i t
a n d s a y n o w h a t is – w h a t h e is s a y i n g in s u p p o r t o f h i s i m p r e s s i o n
r e a l ly is n o t j u s ti fi e d b y w h a t I k n o w h e k n e w.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r t h a t is w h e r e I h a v e a d i ffi c u l ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e I – I – w h e n h e w a s g iv e n

t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d r e q u e s t e d to r e c o m m e n d f o r a p p r o v a l I d o n o t
k n o w w h a t w a s h is u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t th a t t i m e .

Because if I say he

k n e w I m u s t b e v e r y c e r ta i n t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u m u s t – y o u c a n – y o u m a y b e a b l e t o s a y a s
20

f a r a s y o u k n o w h e m u s t h a v e k n o w n A B C D b e c a u s e h e w a s g iv e n
certain documents.

He must have read them because he approved

w h a t w a s w r i t te n th e r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir t h a t i s w h a t I w a s s a y i n g .
Because it was in the document and…
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t t h a t is h o w y o u m u s t a r tic u la t e . T h a t i s – Ms

Page 75 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
G c a b a s h e I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o r e p e a t y o u r q u e s ti o n s o h e c a n
then answer it.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Th e q u e s t io n r e a ll y w a s t h a t M r Z w a n e

s e e m e d t o b e u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t if h e d i d n o t s e n d a c h a p e r o n e
w i t h y o u I a m c a l li n g t h e p e r s o n a c c o m p a n y in g a s s o m e b o d y w h o w o u l d
b e a s s i s t i n g y o u in t h a t – i n t h a t c o n te x t. Yo u w o u l d b e d is a p p o i n t e d
a n d t h e g o v e r n m e n t o ffi c i a ls y o u w e r e m e e ti n g w o u l d b e d is a p p o in t e d .
S o h e th o u g h t it p r u d e n t t o s e n d a p r o t o c o l p e r s o n to b e o f a s s i s ta n c e
to you.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f y o u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e is s a y i n g y o u

a r e fr e e to s a y y o u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e is s a y i n g .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a t h e d i ff ic u l ty I h a v e a n d b e c a u s e

t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s a y s h e w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n . Yo u s e e I h a v e
n o t s e e n t h e a ff id a v i t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t t a k e w h a t th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r i s s a y in g a s

tr u e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is s a y i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u a r e fr e e to s a y if t h a t i s w h a t h e i s s a y i n g t h i s
20

is my a n s w e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h is t h in g o f …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is w h y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f d is a p p o i n t m e n t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t w il l b e a p r o b le m f o r m e t o a n s w e r

Page 76 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
w h e n I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d th e q u e s t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w a n y r e a s o n w h y th e a b s e n c e o f p r o t o c o l
o ffic e r o n t h e t r i p w o u l d h a v e d is a p p o in t e d y o u ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Now I am confused.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o w h a t w a s i m p o r t a n t a b o u t a p r o t o c o l o ffic e r i n
y o u r tr ip ?

What was important?

If it was the presence of a protocol

o ffic e r w a s n o t i m p o r t a n t I d o n o t s e e w h y y o u w o u ld b e d i s a p p o i n te d if
t h e r e w a s n o p r o to c o l o ff ic e r.

B u t i f y o u k n o w o f a p a r ti c u la r r e a s o n

m a y b e y o u a r e a b l e to t e l l m e . M s G c a b a s h e i t w a s a p r o to c o l o ffic e r
10

t h a t h e is ta lk in g a b o u t in r e la t io n to d i s a p p o i n t m e n t ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I n – y e s a n d N a r a y a n in p a r tic u la r.
CHAIRPERSON: Narayan.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W a s th e p r o t o c o l o ffic e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h o Mr Z w a n e a c t u a ll y r e c o m m e n d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o I a s k y o u t h e q u e s ti o n M r Th a b e t h e . Wa s –
w o u ld y o u h a v e b e e n d is a p p o i n t e d i f M r – if a p r o t o c o l o ff ic e r o r Mr
Narayan was not there?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

20

J a – C h a ir i t i s a v e r y d i ffic u l t

q u e s t io n b e c a u s e I a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It c a n n o t b e a d i ffi c u l t q u e s ti o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m a t e c h n ic a l p e r s o n . T h e p e o p le
t h a t a r e w o r r ie d a b o u t p r o to c o l is a t t h e p o li t ic a l l e v e l a n d a t t h e
P r e m i e r o ffic e t h a t i s w h y t h e y t o ld u s th e y i n s is t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w e a r e n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t th o s e p e o p l e w e a r e

Page 77 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
t a lk in g a b o u t y o u . My q u e s t io n is w h e t h e r y o u M r T h a b e t h e w o u ld h a v e
b e e n d is a p p o i n t e d if t h e r e w a s n o p r o to c o l o ffic e r i n t h e tr ip .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I w o u l d b e d is a p p o i n t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e h e s a y s y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n d is a p p o i n t e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I w o u l d h a v e b e e n – I w ill b e

d is a p p o in t e d C h a ir i f t h e r e w o u l d b e a n e x p e c t a t io n i n t e r ms o f th e
p r o t o c o l t o d o a n d t h e r e w a s n o t a n y b o d y t o a d v is e m e t o d o i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t k n o w in g w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t th e tr i p w o u ld y o u
h a v e b e e n d is a p p o in t e d i f t h e r e w a s n o p r o to c o l o ff ic e r ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

C h a i r m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t t h e

d is a p p o in t m e n t c o m e s w h e n y o u d o s o m e t h i n g n o t k n o w in g y o u s h o u ld
have done.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o M r Th a b e t h e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e n y o u g e t th e d is a p p o in t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u a r e g o in g o n a t r i p y o u k n o w i f y o u n e e d

c e r t a i n p e o p le a n d w it h o u t th o s e p e o p l e i t is g o in g – t h e r e a r e g o i n g t o
b e c h a l l e n g e s – s e r i o u s c h a l le n g e s . Yo u w o u ld b e d is a p p o i n t e d if y o u r
PA is n o t a ll o w e d t o g o w it h y o u . O r y o u r d e p u ty is n o t a ll o w e d to g o
w i t h y o u b e c a u s e y o u k n o w y o u a r e g o in g t o r e ly o n y o u r d e p u ty o n t h e
20

is s u e s t h a t w o u ld b e d is c u s s e d i n In d i a f o r e x a m p l e .

D id y o u n e e d a

p r o t o c o l o ff ic e r a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d f o r t h e tr ip ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s fa r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d d o n o t b o t h e r a b o u t w h a t
a n y o n e e ls e m ig h t h a v e t h o u g h t . D i d y o u n e e d a p r o to c o l o ff ic e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: C h a i r if I g o to a f o r e i g n c o u n t r y a s a

Page 78 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
g o v e r n m e n t r e p r e s e n ta t iv e w h e r e I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r o t o c o l I
w o u ld n e e d a p r o to c o l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u n e e d a p r o to c o l o ffic e r o n y o u r tr ip t o I n d i a ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s n e c e s s a r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n e c e s s a r y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e i t – I w a s g o in g to a c o u n tr y
t h a t I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d i t s p r o t o c o ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u g o i n g t o m e e t g o v e r n m e n t o ffic ia ls in I n d i a ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

N o i t – n o t n e c e s s a r ily m e e ti n g

g o v e r n m e n t o ffic ia ls C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I a m t a lk in g a b o u t th e tr i p .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Were they in the plans?

They were not in the plans?

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t h e y w e r e n o t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h y w o u l d y o u n e e d a p r o t o c o l o ff ic e r i f y o u a r e

n o t g o i n g t o m e e t g o v e r n m e n t o ffic i a ls in I n d i a ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t p r o to c o l

d o e s n o t o n ly a p p ly i n g o v e r n m e n t . I a m n o t tr y in g t o d e f e n d C h a ir th e
n e e d . I a m s a y i n g i t – t o m e i t d id n o t c o m e a s a n e m b a r r a s s m e n t to
20

me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To w h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To h a v e n o t t o h a v e .
CHAIRPERSON:
d is a p p o in t m e n t .

Okay

maybe

em barrassment

is

close

to

L e t u s g o b a c k t o m y q u e s ti o n . W o u ld y o u h a v e b e e n

d is a p p o in t e d i f t h e p r o to c o l o ff ic e r – th e r e w a s n o p r o t o c o l o ffi c e r o n

Page 79 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
t h e tr ip ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair I would not have.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t h a v e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : U n ti l s u c h ti m e t h a t s o m e t h i n g w o u l d
have happened.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t if y o u a r e to ld th e r e w o u l d b e n o p r o t o c o l

o ffic e r o n t h e t r i p b e f o r e y o u d e p a r t f o r I n d i a y o u w o u l d n o t b e h a v e
b e e n d is a p p o i n t e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o I w o u l d n o t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n f a c t I s e e m t o t h i n k a n d y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f I
a m w r o n g . I s e e m t o t h i n k t h a t p r e v i o u s l y y o u d id t e s t i fy t h a t y o u d id
n o t s e e a n y n e e d f o r a p r o t o c o l o ffic e r.

A m I – is m y r e c o ll e c ti o n

wrong?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a ir th e o n l y – w h a t I s a id I

a p p r e c ia t e d th e p r e s e n c e o f t h e p e r s o n t o a s s is t w i t h th e in t e r p r e t a ti o n .
T h a t is w h e r e my a p p r e c i a ti o n c a m e in t o th is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d e d a n in t e r p r e t e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: I n e e d e d s o m e b o d y t o a s s is t m e w it h
t h e in t e r p r e t a ti o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t n e c e s s a r i ly a p r o to c o l o ffic e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

M o s t o f t h e t i m e th e p r o to c o l o ffic e r

t h a t is a l lo c a t e d t o y o u w o u l d b e s o m e b o d y w h o u n d e r s t a n d t h e
la n g u a g e , w h o u n d e r s t a n d – a n d s o t h e r e is a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e t h e y

Page 80 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
g e t s e le c t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B a s e d o n w h ic h c o u n t r y a r e y o u

going.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g m e a n s to m e – s u g g e s t
t o m e a ll y o u n e e d is s o m e b o d y w h o c a n i n t e r p r e t f o r y o u ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : D o t h e in t e r p r e t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t e ls e h e d o e s t h a t is s o m e th in g e ls e b u t y o u

n e e d s o m e b o d y w h o c a n i n te r p r e t fo r y o u ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I n f a c t w h a t M r Z w a n e i n h is a ffi d a v i t r e fe r s to
is th e f o r e i g n c u l tu r e , t h e f o r e i g n l a n g u a g e , s o m e b o d y t o a s s i s t i n – i n
h e l p i n g y o u c o m m u n ic a te e ff e c ti v e ly ?

I a m j u s t g iv i n g y o u th e

h i g h l ig h ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

O f w h y h e t h o u g h t a p r o t o c o l o ff ic e r w o u l d

a s s is t . B u t my – m y n e x t q u e s ti o n t h o u g h is th a t y o u h a d b e e n t o In d i a
b e f o r e i n 2 0 1 0 . I k n o w t h a t i s o n y o u r C V.
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

In fact when you had gone to India in 2010

y o u h a d g o n e t o d o a n a s s e s s m e n t a n d t h i s is fr o m y o u r C V.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

O n a r e q u e s t f o r a c c r e d i t a ti o n o f a n

e s t a b li s h m e n t fo r t h e e x p o r t t o S o u t h A f r i c a o f d e b o n e d a n d d e g l a n d e d

Page 81 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
fr o z e n b u ffa l o m e a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o y o u h a d b e e n to n e g o ti a t e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : O n b e h a l f o f a n e s t a b li s h m e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: A n d y o u w e r e n o t a t a g r ic u l t u r e a t t h e t i m e –
n o t a t F r e e S t a te a t t h e ti m e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I w a s …
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B e c a u s e th is w a s i n 2 0 1 0 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I w a s a t N a t io n a l A g r ic u l t u r e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: S o d i d y o u e x p l a i n t o M r Z w a n e t h a t y o u h a d
a c t u a ll y b e e n t o I n d i a b e f o r e to g o n e g o ti a t e w i th t h e l o c a ls t h e r e a n d i t
r e a l ly d i d n o t n e e d a p r o t o c o l o ffi c e r ? O r w a s i t ir r e le v a n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It – ja i t w a s a d i ffe r e n t – a t t h a t t i m e
t h e a r r a n g e m e n ts w e r e m a d e f o r m e b y t h e e m b a s s y i n I n d ia f o r t h e
in t e r p r e t a ti o n a n d a l l t h o s e . A n d t h a t tr i p w a s u n d e r t a k e n a s s u c h . S o
t h e – h o w th e p r o v in c e o p e r a te d a n d h o w n a ti o n a l o p e r a te d i t w a s n o t
the same.

20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Yo u s e e th e o t h e r o d d i t y f o r m e c e r t a in ly i s

y o u h a d b e e n t a lk i n g t o t h e C E O o f P a r a s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t is y o u r e v i d e n c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : D i d y o u n o t t e ll M r Z w a n e t h a t y o u k n o w i t is

Page 82 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
g o i n g t o c o s t u s t o h a v e a p r o t o c o l o ffi c e r. I h a v e a c tu a l ly b e e n ta lk i n g
to the man I am going to visit and we have a good understanding of why
I a m g o i n g t o v is i t h i m i n I n d i a .

Yo u – t h e r e w a s – t h e r e is n o th i n g

u n u s u a l a b o u t th e tr i p b e c a u s e y o u h a d a r r a n g e d t h e tr ip .

Did you

c o m m u n ic a te t h i s t o th e M E C ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o I d i d n o t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: The reason I have always had an interest in
M r N a r a y a n is b e c a u s e o f th e d u a l r o l e h e s e e ms t o h a v e p l a y e d i n th e
Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t. B e c a u s e a t o n e p o i n t h e is a d v is o r t o th e P r e m i e r.
10

A t a n o t h e r p o i n t h e i s r e p r e s e n t in g E s ti n a a n d th is i s w h y r e a ll y I a s k
t h e s e q u e s ti o n s b e c a u s e i t is i m p o r t a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h i c h h a t M r
N a r a y a n w a s w e a r i n g a s h e d i d d i ffe r e n t th in g s f o r th e Fr e e S t a t e
g o v e r n m e n t . I a m ju s t g iv i n g y o u c o n te x t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : O k a y. C a n y o u t h e n c o n fi r m – I h a v e m o v e d
a w a y fr o m t h e tr i p t o I n d i a .

Th a t a n y r e p o r t th a t is t a b l e d i n t h e

le g i s l a tu r e b y a n i n c u m b e n t M E C f o r Vr e d e – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n M E C f o r
a g r ic u lt u r e o n t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o j e c t w o u l d b e b a s e d o n i n fo r m a ti o n
t h a t w a s p r o v i d e d b y y o u / b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t.
20

W o u l d – is t h a t a

c o r r e c t io n a s s u m p t io n th a t i f t h e M E C g o e s t o th e l e g i s l a tu r e t o
a d d r e s s o n t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n th e y a r e i m p a r ti n g
y o u w o u l d k n o w a b o u t . Yo u w o u l d h a v e g i v e n t h a t M E C .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a – j a t h e r e is tw o w a y s o f i t C h a ir.
I f it i s a w r i t t e n r e p ly t h e n th e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld d o s o b u t i f i t
s o m e t i m e s w h e n i t i s a n o r a l r e p ly t h e M E C c a n r e s p o n d o r a l ly w i t h o u t

Page 83 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
– I must…
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n s u l t in g y o u .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W i t h o u t c o n s u l ti n g u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o t h e r e a r e tw o w a y s .

I f i t is a

w r i t t e n r e p l y y e s th e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld h a v e m a d e t h a t i n p u t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I f i t i s a b u d g e t v o te s p e e c h ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I f i t is a b u d g e t v o t e s p e e c h th e n

t h e r e a r e t w o th i n g s i n t h e b u d g e t f o r – t h e r e i s te c h n ic a l a n d p o li ti c a l
10

in t h e s p e e c h . W e m a d e t h e t e c h n i c a l i n p u t i n t o th e b u d g e t s p e e c h .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: A n d t h e n a s fa r a s t h e Pr e m i e r is c o n c e r n e d
a n d t h e s ta t e o f t h e p r o v in c e a d d r e s s w h e r e h e r e f e r s to o r w h e r e s h e
r e fe r s to a m a t t e r fr o m D A R D w o u l d t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n b e c o m i n g f r o m
t h e o ffi c i a ls w it h in t h e d e p a r t m e n t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. W e s u b m it o u r
in p u t s t h e n t h e y fo r m u l a te it i n t o th e s p e e c h .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

I w i ll c o m e b a c k to t h a t p r o b a b ly t o m o r r o w

b e c a u s e t h e r e is a p o in t a t w h ic h th e P r e m i e r s a y s th a t th e m i lk
p r o c e s s in g p l a n t w a s 9 0 % c o m p l e te . B u t I j u s t g i v e y o u t h a t h e a d s u p
20

b e c a u s e I w o u ld w a n t t o k n o w w h e r e h e g o t t h a t i m p r e s s i o n o r t h a t
in f o r m a ti o n fr o m .

B u t I w i ll s h o w y o u t h e p r o p e r d o c u m e n t t o m o r r o w

b e c a u s e i t is p a r t o f t h e f in a n c ia ls th a t w e w i ll b e s t u d y in g to m o r r o w.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

B u t i t is s o m e t h i n g f o r y o u a t le a s t j u s t t o

r e fl e c t o n .

Page 84 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

C a n w e j u s t d e a l w i th a c o u p l e o f o th e r

is s u e s . I a m m o v in g a w a y f r o m M r Z w a n e ’s v e r s io n c o m p l e te ly. T h e r e
m a y b e s o m e th i n g t h a t p o p s u p s o m e w h e r e b u t r e a lly I j u s t w a n t t o
fi n i s h o ff s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t a r o s e fr o m t h e t h r e e a ff i d a v i ts t h a t w e
h a v e n o t c o v e r e d y e t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M o s t i m p o r t a n tly I ju s t – I d o n o t t h in k i t w i ll
t a k e u s v e r y lo n g M r T h a b e t h e . B u t f o r y o u r c o n v e n i e n c e y o u m a y w a n t
10

t o h o l d o n t o E x h i b it H H 1 0 b w h ic h is t h e s e c o n d fi le th a t n o w h a s t h e
a n n e x u r e s t o y o u r 2 0 1 7 a ff id a v i t . S o y o u g e t t h e a ffi d a v it i n fr o n t a n d
t h e n t h e s e a r e th e a n n e x u r e s t h a t w e w e r e e v e n t u a ll y a b le t o l o c a t e . I
w i ll j u s t r u n t h r o u g h t h o s e a n n e x u r e s a n d w h e r e y o u w a n t to e l a b o r a te
a n d g o b a c k in t o th e a ffi i t s e l f p le a s e fe e l fr e e t o d o s o . I r e a ll y j u s t
w a n t e d t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d w h a t a n n e x u r e s y o u h a d in c l u d e d a n d
u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u i n c lu d e d p a r ti c u l a r a n n e x u r e s i n th a t 2 0 1 7 a ff id a v i t
here with me.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

20

S o i f w e l o o k a t M P T 1 a n d I t h in k th e r e a r e

fl a g s M r T h a b e t h e . I f y o u g o t o 1 li f t i t a n d y o u g e t to p a g e 2 5 4 th a t
d o c u m e n t i s th e d o c u m e n t th a t s e ts o u t th e b a s ic c r i t e r i a f o r Vr e d e
D a ir y b e n e f ic i a r ie s . Mr T h a b e t h e I b e l ie v e th a t th e fi le y o u w a n t t o b e
lo o k in g a t – i s t h e o n e w it h th e p in k fl a g s . A r e y o u h a p p y w i t h t h a t ?
W h a t is th a t – w h a t is …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : M P T 0 0 1 i s t h is o n e .

Page 85 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o Mr T h a b e t h e – m a y b e i t is o u r f a u l t fo r …
CHAIRPERSON:

I th in k te ll h i m – t e ll h i m t h e Ex h ib i t n u m b e r o n t h e

s p i n e fir s t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e e x h i b i t n u m b e r o n t h e s p in e i s B n o t A .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is B – o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . S o i t is th e f ir s t – j a th a t is t h e c o r r e c t
o n e y o u h a d . S o t h o s e fl a g s s h o u ld b e n u m b e r e d 1 a ll th e w a y d o w n to
21, are they?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: T h o s e a r e y o u r a n n e x u r e s . S o m e o f th e m a r e
m is s i n g b u t t h a t is fi n e w e w il l d e a l w i t h th a t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I f y o u lo o k a t th e fir s t f la g n u m b e r 1 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: I f y o u l i f t y o u w i ll g e t t o t h e b a s i c c r i te r i a f o r
Vr e d e D a ir y b e n e fi c i a r ie s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : G o o d . H a v e y o u s e e n t h i s d o c u m e n t b e fo r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I h a v e s e e n i t C h a ir.

20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h il e y o u w e r e H O D a t D A R D ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

Ja.

W a s t h i s d o c u m e n t d r a f te d b e fo r e y o u

s ig n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t o f t h e 5 J u n e 2 0 1 2 w i t h Es t in a ? D o y o u r e c a ll ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

N o th i n g tu r n s o n i t s o I d o n o t w a n t y o u t o

Page 86 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
w o r r y a b o u t it M r Th a b e t h e .

T h e i n te n ti o n is n o t to t r ic k y o u o r

a n y th in g I j u s t w a n te d t o t r y a n d l o c a t e i t i n a p a r ti c u la r p e r i o d o f ti m e .
B u t y o u w il l a g r e e w i th m e w h e n I s a y th a t t o d a te th e r e is n o e v i d e n c e
t h a t t h i s c r it e r i a h a d a n y r e l e v a n c e to t h e s e l e c t i o n o f b e n e fic i a r i e s . I f
y o u l o o k a t t h o s e c r i t e r ia i t h a d n o r e l e v a n c e o r v e r y l i m it e d r e l e v a n c e
t o th e s e l e c ti o n o f b e n e fic i a r i e s . A n d I c a n r e p e a t y o u r e v i d e n c e t o y o u
ju s t t o a s s is t y o u . W h a t y o u d i d s a y is th a t w h e n y o u w e n t to s p e a k t o
b e n e fic i a r i e s y o u w a n te d to k n o w w h o is in t e r e s te d i n p o u l tr y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Hm.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h o is in t e r e s t e d in d a ir y, w h o is i n t e r e s te d
in r e d m e a t ? S o I g r a n t y o u t h a t . B u t th a t i s a b o u t t h e o n ly is s u e t h a t
y o u t e a s e d o u t w h e n y o u w e r e t a lk i n g t o b e n e fic i a r i e s . C o r r e c t m e if I
am wrong?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a C h a ir.

I agree I have seen the

d o c u m e n t b u t I h a v e n o t in t e r a c t e d w i t h t h e d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e i t is a
d o c u m e n t t h a t o ffi c i a l w il l d e v e lo p . I t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly c o m e t o th e
H O D f o r a p p r o v a l b e c a u s e th is w i ll t h e n b e c o m e th e ir b a s ic g u i d e li n e s
a s t h e y g o o u t t o i d e n ti f y a n d s e e t h e s e a r e th e is s u e s . H e n c e I s a y I
h a v e s e e n th e d o c u m e n t b u t I m i g h t n o t h a v e d o n e r e fl e c t io n o n i t
20

b e c a u s e I b e li e v e t h e o ffic i a ls i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h o w o u l d h a v e d o n e
that.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

I j u s t w a n t to s p e n d o n e o r tw o m in u te s t o

make the point that most of what was set out in this document was
c o m p le t e l y i r r e l e v a n t t o t h e s e a r c h f o r b e n e fic ia r i e s f o r t h e Vr e d e D a ir y
P r o je c t. A q u ic k e x a m p l e i s th e v e r y la s t c r i t e r i a t h e o n e d e a li n g w i th

Page 87 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
a g e . A g e m o r e o r l e s s 6 5 w a s t h e c u t o ff …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll th e r e a r e tw o w a y s o f d e a li n g w i t h t h e d o c u m e n t
Ms Gcabashe.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e is i f y o u r p r o p o s i ti o n i s th a t t h i s – th e c r i t e r i a s e t
o u t i n i t w e r e r e l e v a n t is t o e i t h e r q u i c k l y r e a d th e m a n d te ll t h e m o r
t a k e o n e b y o n e a n d t e ll t h e m o r o th e r w is e h e c a n r e a d i t o v e r n i g h t a n d
y o u a s k h i m t o m o r r o w w h e n h e h a s h a d a c h a n c e to r e f le c t o n i t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: I – I…
10

CHAIRPERSON: Whichever because he says he has not had a chance
t o r e f le c t o n i t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n a n d p l e a s e c o r r e c t m e M r T h a b e t h e
if I a m w r o n g .

Yo u r u l ti m a t e a n s w e r i s y o u k n o w t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t

e x i s ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

B u t i t w a s n o t y o u r f u n c ti o n to p u t t o g e t h e r

t h e c r i t e r i a i t i s a ju n i o r f u n c ti o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o y o u c a n n o t r e a ll y s p e a k t o t h e r e l e v a n c e
20

o f t h e c r i t e r i a b e c a u s e i t i s s o m e t h in g th a t y o u g a v e a n in s t r u c ti o n it
h a d to b e d o n e b y b e i t t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r o r b e lo w.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t a n s w e r s t h e is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A s I u n d e r s t o o d t h e e v id e n c e .

Page 88 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o Ye s o k a y n o th a t i s fi n e .

Just remember to

m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u r – y o u a r e a b le t o b e r e c o r d e d M r T h a b e t h e . I t h i n k
your past two, three answers may have been quite soft.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y a lr ig h t . B u t I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u r a n s w e r i s
y o u h a d n o i n p u t i n t h e c r e a ti o n o f th e d o c u m e n t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The document.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n e w a b o u t – i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r e p a r e d b y

o ffic i a ls b u t y o u c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Comment on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e le v a n c e o f i ts c o n t e n t s t o a n y t h i n g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M a y b e I s h o u l d a ls o c l a r i f y th a t b e c a u s e t h e
n a t io n a l c u s p c o n d it i o n a l g r a n t r e q u ir e d b e n e fic i a r i e s y o u a r e c o r r e c t
w h e n y o u s a y t h a t y o u h a d t o d e v e l o p a b e n e fic i a r y d o c u m e n t s o t h a t
y o u c o u ld m e e t t h a t c o n d i t io n . A g a i n i f I a m w r o n g t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n
t h e f a c ts .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

20

Ye s C h a ir.

T h e r e is a n a ti o n a l

d o c u m e n t th a t s p e a k s t o th e i s s u e o f b e n e fi c i a r ie s a n d t h a t i s t h e
d o c u m e n t t h a t I a m r e q u i r e d t o i m p l e m e n t. T h e n f r o m t h a t d o c u m e n t
t h e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t c a n d e v e l o p i ts o w n d o c u m e n t m a y b e t o c o v e r
a r e a s w h e r e t h e y fe e l m a y b e t h e y a r e l a c k i n g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: A n d t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t w o u ld b e r e q u ir e d f o r
p u r p o s e s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w i th E s t in a a n d g e tt i n g t h a t c o n d i ti o n a l

Page 89 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
grant

fr o m

CUSP

would

be

the

document

the

department

had

d e v e l o p e d . Yo u r d e p a r t m e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o C h a ir.

Th e r e q u ir e m e n ts is

m e e ti n g t h e c r i t e r ia o f t h e n a ti o n a l d e p a r t m e n t . W h e n y o u m e e t t h o s e
r e q u ir e m e n t s th e n – th e n y o u a r e a l l o c a te d t h e f u n d i n g n o t th e
d e p a r t m e n ta l o n e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Oh.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e n a t io n a l h a s g i v e n t h e

c o n d i ti o n s . T h e r e a r e c o n d i ti o n s th a t g o e s w i t h t h e m o n e y s o y o u h a v e
10

t o m e e t th o s e c o n d i ti o n s o f n a t i o n a l f o r th e m o n e y t o b e a l l o c a t e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o w I k n o w o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s th a t th e C U S P
g r a n t w a s w i th d r a w n w a s b e c a u s e y o u f a il e d t o p r e s e n t a b e n e fic i a r y
lis t th a t m e t th e i r c o n d i t io n . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r t h a t is n o t c o r r e c t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e lis t w a s p r o v i d e d .

t h e y w i t h d r e w t h e y a lr e a d y h a d t h e l is t .

B y t h e ti m e

H e n c e t h e r e a s o n fo r th e

w i t h d r a w a l h a d n o t h i n g to d o w i t h b e n e fi c i a r i e s . I t h a d e v e r y t h i n g t o d o
w i t h w h a t I h a d e x p l a i n e d e a r l i e r t h a t tr e a s u r y h a d r e q u e s t e d t h e
20

department to do so.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t is y o u r e v i d e n c e M r T h a b e th e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s . Ye s a n d t h e r e i s a l e tt e r C h a ir

fr o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y t o A g r ic u l t u r e r e q u e s ti n g t h e m t o d o s o ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

W e h a v e s o m e b o d y c o m i n g fr o m C U S P w h o

e i t h e r c o n f ir m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g o r d i ff e r w i t h w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g .

Page 90 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
A n d t e ll m e t h a t m y i n te r p r e t a t i o n w a s w r o n g t h a t is w h y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

Ye s C h a ir.

I have seen – I had an

a d v a n t a g e o f b e i n g p r o v i d e d w i t h th a t . I t h i n k t h a t l e t te r i s a n e x h i b i t
in t h e r e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

T h e – I d o n o t th in k t h e r e is a n y m e r i t i n

g o i n g i n t o t h e d e t a i l o f t h e c r i te r i a h e r e a s I h a d w a n t e d to b e c a u s e y o u
s a y y o u h a d n o t h in g t o d o w i t h i t . S o I w ill m o v e o n t o th e n e x t p o i n t
w h ic h i s a n n e x u r e 2 . S o a t le a s t t h e C h a i r ma n k n o w s t h a t n o t o n l y d i d
y o u s e t o u t c r it e r ia – b a s ic c r i t e r ia y o u h a d a l is t w h i c h is p a r t o f
10

a n n e x u r e 1 w h ic h w a s p r e p a r e d b y th e d e p a r t m e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d o n y o u r v e r s io n y o u – th a t lis t c o m p l i e d
w i t h t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts o f t h e n a ti o n a l o ff ic e .
a n n e x u r e M r T h a b e th e .

P l e a s e g o t o th e n e x t

N o w a s I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d y o u r a ff i d a v i t t h i s

p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s m a d e w h e n y o u c o n s u l t e d w i th N e s tl e , P a r m a l a t ,
C l o v e r, D a i r y b e ll e .

If you look at your paragraph 7 – paragraph 7 of

t h e 2 0 1 7 a ffi d a v i t a n d f o r y o u r c o n v e n i e n c e i t is t h e fi r s t d o c u m e n t i n
t h e s a m e f il e .

Yo u c a n – y o u c a n e v e n s t a y w i t h t h e s a m e f il e i t is

a c t u a ll y – j a w e ju s t r e p e a t e d . W e s i m p ly p u t i t th e r e f o r c o n v e n ie n c e .
20

Yo u s a y t h is is th e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u r e li e d o n a n d th e n y o u c o n t in u e d
t o s a y n o r e s p o n s e w a s r e c e iv e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Yi p th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

Yo u in a g r e e m e n t w it h th a t ?

I f y o u lo o k a t

t h is d o c u m e n t M r T h a b e t h e p l e a s e e x p l a i n w h y a n y o f t h o s e d a ir y
c o m p a n i e s w o u l d h a v e b e e n p e r s u a d e d t o i n v e s t t o b e c o m e p a r tn e r s

Page 91 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
w i t h y o u i n th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t? B e c a u s e if y o u j u s t p a g e t h r o u g h
it s l o w ly – j u s t g o t h r o u g h i t . I t a c t u a ll y t e lls y o u o n th e fir s t p a g e th a t
it

is

the

Mohoma

Mobung,

A g r ic u l t u r e

and

Rural

D e v e lo p m e n t

fr a m e w o r k 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n Ms G c a b a s h e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

L a s t ti m e I h e a r d w a s w h e n y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g t o

p a r a g r a p h 7 o f h i s a ffi d a v i t.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : O f h i s a ff id a v i t w h ic h …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e m o v e d s o m e w h e r e e ls e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n i t r e fe r s t o .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h is d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: And that document is at page?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

I t is a t p a g e 2 6 2 .

I t i s th e s e c o n d f l a g

C h a ir m a n . F la g 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d s o I a m g o i n g th r o u g h a ll th e a n n e x u r e s .
T h i s is w h a t h e h a d a n n e x e d t o h is a ffi d a v i t C h a ir m a n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o I a m a s k in g h i m t o e x p l a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o th a t is f in e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: T h e r e l e v a n c e o f t h i s to t h e p e o p l e h e s a i d h e

Page 92 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
spoke to.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h e n h e w a s lo o k in g f o r l o c a l p a r t n e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M r T h a b e th e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a i r t h is w a s t h e g e n e r ic p r o j e c t
M o h o m a M o b u n g A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t fr a m e w o r k 2 0 11
10

w h ic h w e h a d – w e p r e s e n t e d . B u t d e p e n d i n g o n w h o is t h e p a r ty w e
a r e t a l k i n g t o t h e n w e t h e n e m p h a s i s e o n s p e c i f ic a r e a s o f i n te r e s t . S o
t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n is g e n e r i c b u t t h e d is c u s s i o n t h e n t h e y w ill f o c u s a s
y o u e n te r i n to d i s c u s s io n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Th a t is n o t w h a t y o u s a y i n y o u r p a r a g r a p h 7 .
B e c a u s e w h a t y o u c o m m u n ic a te in y o u r p a r a g r a p h 7
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

And it was an important paragraph because

y o u h a d t o d e c i d e o n w h e th e r to u s e l o c a l c o m p a n i e s o r lo o k fu r t h e r
a fi e l d . A n d y o u s a y t h i s i s t h e p r e s e n t a t i o n y o u u s e d a n d o n th e b a s is
20

o f t h i s p r e s e n t a t i o n t h e r e w a s n o r e s p o n s e r e c e iv e d . T h a t i s w h a t y o u
s a y in p a r a g r a p h 7 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o w ju s t b y w a y o f e x a m p l e r e a lly t o i ll u s tr a t e
t h e p o i n t. I f y o u lo o k a t – g o t o p a g e 2 6 6 I a m r e a l ly j u s t il lu s t r a t in g
the point.

W h e n y o u l o o k a t th a t p a r t ic u l a r s c h e d u le o r d i a g r a m i t

Page 93 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
s i m p l y – a t p a g e 2 6 6 M r Th a b e t h e . I t r e a ll y u n d e r T h a b o M o f u t s e n y a n a
w h ic h is w h e r e Vr e d e w o u l d f a l l .

If you run down that column you

s p e a k a b o u t c a tt l e , m a iz e , w h e a t , f lo w e r s , a s p a r a g u s , a p p le s , c h e r r ie s ,
p e a c h e s , v e g e ta b le , s o y a b e a n s , a n d p o t a to e s .

N o w y o u – t h is i s a

p i tc h t o m e P a r m a l a t w h y w o u l d P a r m a l a t b e i n t e r e s te d i n w o r k in g w i th
you?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r - C h a ir I a m t r y i n g t o g e t t o …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : P a g e 2 - 6 - 6 . Th a t is t h e o n e . S o g o t o T h a b o
M o f u ts a n y a n a a n d t h a t is th e Vr e d e a r e a .
10

Vr e d e fa ll s w it h in t h a t

p a r t ic u l a r d i s t r ic t a n d y o u a r e ta lk in g - y o u a r e t r y i n g t o g e t m o n e y y o u a r e tr y in g t o g e t p a r t n e r s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Yo u a r e tr y in g t o g e t in t e r e s t fr o m lo c a l

p e o p l e to w o r k w i t h y o u a n d s e t u p t h i s m e g a d a ir y p r o je c t a n d y o u
s h o w t h e m a d o c u m e n t li k e t h i s . T h i s is w h a t I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d o f y o u r
paragraph 7.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r c a n I r e fe r y o u o n - o n th e

s a m e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o p a g e 2 - 7 - 2 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : 2 - 7 - 2 ? C h a ir m a n a r e y o u th e r e ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I h a v e g o t it .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C o n t in u e Mr T h a b e t h e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e - t h e - y o u w il l - y o u w il l r e a d

fr o m t h e c o l u m n fr o m t h e l e f t .

It s a y s T h a b o M o f u t s a n y a n a w h e r e i t

s a y s m o s tl y r u r a l.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o . Ye s , y e s . I a m w i t h y o u . Ye s .

Page 94 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . N o w i f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t c o l u m n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h e f ir s t - t h e fi r s t c o l u m n a n d
t h e n th e - t h e s e c o n d c o l u m n i s t h e c o l u m n t h a t t a lk s t o t h e c o r r i d o r.
T h e t h i r d o n e t a l k s t o t h e fo c u s a r e a s a n d t h e n y o u w il l s e e i n t h e fo c u s
a r e a th e r e - th e r e is m a d e s p e c i fi c o f t h e a r e a s . I t h in k w e d i d d i s c u s s
t h e m b e f o r e a n d t h e n u n ti l - u n ti l y o u g o t o t h e c o l u m n w h e r e y o u s a y
c o m m o d i ty ty p e w h ic h is o n e , t w o , t h r e e , f o u r, fi v e c o lu m n - c o lu m n
n u m b e r f iv e .
10

T h e n y o u w il l b e a b le t o s e e d a ir y th e r e b e c o m e s a
c o m m o d i ty ty p e t o b e i m p l e m e n t e d in T h a b o M o f u ts a n y a n a a n d y o u w il l
s e e o n t h e - o n th e c o r r i d o r a n d - a n d a ls o th e fo c u s a r e a s y o u w o u ld
s e e w h i c h a r e a s w e in t e n d in g to f o c u s o n w h i c h w e h a v e d is c u s s e d .
F o u r i e s b u r g , F ic k s b u r g , M e m e l , Vr e d e .
H e n c e I s a y t h i s is a P o w e r P o in t p r e s e n ta ti o n . A P o w e r P o i n t
p r e s e n t a ti o n y o u p r e s e n t i t.

Yo u ta lk to it .

I f - i f y o u a r e n o t i n th e

p r e s e n t a ti o n y o u a r e n o t g o in g t o b e a b l e t o u n d e r s t a n d . S o y o u - y o u
s u m m a r i s e in y o u r P o w e r P o i n t p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d th e n y o u t a lk t o t h e
p r e s e n t a ti o n . Yo u t a l k t o th e p e o p l e th a t a r e s it t in g th e r e .
20

Yo u e x p l a in t o t h e m b u t t h i s i s j u s t a p r e s e n t a ti o n th a t w e
g a v e to t h e m a n d - b u t w h a t I a m tr y in g t o e x p l a i n is th e i s s u e s t h a t
y o u a r e l o o k in g fo r. T h e y a r e c o v e r e d i n t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e y a r e h i d d e n i f a t a ll a n y t h i n g e ls e . Yo u
c a n l o o k a t th e v e r y n e x t c o l u m n h a v i n g p o i n te d u s t o t h e - th e d a ir y m e n ti o n o f d a ir y i n c o lu m n n u m b e r o n e , t w o , t h r e e , f o u r, fi v e .

Page 95 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

C o l u m n s ix - l iv e s to c k i m p r o v e m e n t , d a ir y

c o w h o t e l , a g r o p r o c e s s i n g /v a l u e a d d i n g h u b H a r r is m i th .
bean

production

and

water

r e tic u l a ti o n .

Market

Grains, dry
i n fr a s tr u c t u r e

d e v e l o p m e n t . M y s i m p l e q u e s t io n M r Th a b e th e i s h o w d o y o u e x p e c t a n
in v e s t o r t o l o o k a t a p r e s e n t a ti o n l ik e t h i s a n d s a y t h a t d a ir y c o w h o t e l
s o u n d s li k e a b r il li a n t i d e a ? Yo u c a n n o t.
I f y o u g o t o p a g e 2 8 0 o f t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t a n d r e a ll y I a m
ju s t il l u s tr a ti n g t h e p o i n t . I t is t h e s a m e p o i n t . T h e r e y o u t a lk a b o u t a
10

m e g a p il o t p r o j e c t a n d t h e r e is a c h a r t p r o v id e d t h e r e . I a m j u s t g e t t in g
t h e r e m y s e l f . Fr e e S t a te D A R D . P la n n i n g a g e n t , s t r a t e g ic p a r tn e r. A
m o s t u n h e l p f u l p r e s e n t a ti o n .
I f w h a t y o u r e a lly w a n t f r o m N e s t l e o r P a r m a la t o r D a ir y b e ll e
e tc e t e r a is t h e r e a t t e n t io n - a s k i n g th e m t o p a y a t t e n t io n t o w h a t y o u
c a n d o w i t h t h e F r e e S t a t e a n d d a ir y f a r m i n g i n th e Fr e e S t a t e .

On

p a g e 2 8 5 th e r e i s n o m e n ti o n o f d a ir y. I h a v e a c t u a l ly g o t a li t t le lis t
h e r e ju s t t o i ll u s tr a te .
On page

2 7 2 w h e r e Th a b o

c o m m o d i ty a p p r o a c h .
20

M o f u ts a n y a n a is

m e n ti o n e d

It j u s t i s n o t a v e r y h e l p fu l d o c u m e n t . A n y w a y

t h a t i s - t h a t is th e e s s e n t i a l q u e s t io n b e c a u s e y o u a n n e x e d t h is
d o c u m e n t t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t .

I d o n o t w a n t to s p e n d to o m u c h t i m e o n

making the same point.
I t is y o u r d o c u m e n t . Yo u u s e d i t t o t r y a n d g a i n in t e r e s t f r o m
b i g b o y s a n d g ir l s m o n e y w i s e w h o a r e a c t u a ll y o p e r a t i n g a l s o in t h e
Fr e e S t a t e . A n y w a y.

Page 96 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l it m a y b e - I t h i n k i t i s a n i m p o r t a n t p o in t

M s G c a b a s h e . Ar e y o u a b l e t o r e s p o n d t o w h a t M s G c a b a s h e i s p u t ti n g
t o y o u ? S h e is in e ff e c t s a y in g r e m e m b e r y o u t o ld m e l a s t - p r e v i o u s l y
t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e l ik e d t o h a v e g o t lo c a l p a r t n e r s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m p a n ie s fr o m S o u t h A fr ic a t o p a r t n e r w i th y o u b u t
y o u tr i e d a n d y o u d id n o t g e t th e m . R e m e m b e r I t h i n k a t s o m e s t a g e I
m a y h a v e s a i d s o m e t h i n g l ik e it i s d i ffi c u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u w o u l d
n o t g e t c o m p a n i e s i n t e r e s te d i n S o u th A f r i c a b u t y o u w o u l d h a v e to g o
10

a l l t h e w a y t o I n d i a a n d th e n g e t o n e t h a t w a s i n te r e s t e d t h e r e .
N o w i n t h e c o n te x t o f w h a t s h e is p u t t in g t o y o u is h o w c o u l d
y o u h a v e h o p e d t o g e t a n y b o d y t o b u y i n to t h i s i f y o u g a v e th e m a
d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s n o t h e l p f u l i n m a k i n g t h a t k i n d o f d e c is io n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r - C h a ir I - I d o n o t a g r e e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e y o u - y o u c a ll a m e e ti n g a n d
y o u s it a n d y o u d is c u s s . T h e n b e f o r e th e d i s c u s s io n y o u g iv e t h e m a
b r o a d e r d is c u s s i o n o f w h a t w e w a n t t o d o .

Yo u g iv e t h e m t h is

p r e s e n t a ti o n . N o w th is p r e s e n t a ti o n y o u g i v e it t o e v e r y b o d y b e c a u s e i t
20

t a lk s t o th e a g r i c u l t u r e i n t h e Fr e e S t a te i n g e n e r a l a n d t h e n - th e n y o u
s i t i n t h e m e e ti n g a n d y o u s a y o n e o f th e f o c u s a r e a s y o u w a n t t o d o
w h y w e h a v e y o u c a ll e d y o u is t h i s o n e a n d w e k n o w y o u a r e e x p e r t s i n
t h a t p a r t ic u l a r a r e a .
S o lo o k i n g a t t h e d o c u m e n t to b e t a lk i n g t o w h a t y o u in t e n d e d
t o d o is - i s n o t a ll t h a t w e h a d d is c u s s e d i n t h e m e e t in g .

Page 97 of 115

All I am

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
s a y in g is t h a t w e h a d t h e m e e ti n g . W e p r e s e n t e d t h is v ie w t o th e m s o
t h a t t h e y h a v e a h o li s t ic p ic t u r e o f w h a t w e w a n t t o d o w h ic h w e h a v e
d o n e t o e v e r y b o d y a n d t h e n y o u th e n b e c o m e s p e c i fi c d e p e n d in g o n t h e
a u d ie n c e t h a t y o u a r e s i t ti n g w i th w h a t y o u w a n t t o ta lk a b o u t o n t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r d a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I s t h i s th e s a m e d o c u m e n t y o u t o o k t o P a r a s
w h e n y o u w e n t to s p e a k to t h e m a b o u t t h e p o s s i b i li t y o f h a v i n g t h e m a s
a s tr a t e g i c p a r t n e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Ye s .

C h a ir t h i s i s o n e o f t h e

d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e - w e h a d b u t w h e n y o u t a lk t o P a r a s t h e y a r e n o t a
S o u th A fr ic a n c o m p a n y t h a t h a v e g o t in t e r e s t i n t h e g e n e r ic a g r ic u l tu r e .
T h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e d o n e w h e n y o u a r e s it t in g w i t h - w i th a - a S o u t h
A fr ic a n c o m p a n y o f w h a t is o u r i n t e n ti o n i n th e Fr e e S t a t e a g r ic u l t u r e .
S o i t is - i t is a d i ff e r e n t b u t y e s I a g r e e . W e a ls o to o k t h i s
document with us.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

I a c t u a ll y a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n if t h is w a s t h e

d o c u m e n t y o u r e l ie d o n . I f t h is w a s t h e d o c u m e n t y o u t o o k . Yo u s a y i t
is o n e o f .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O f t h e d o c u m e n ts w e t o o k .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o y o u h a d o t h e r d o c u m e n ts ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . W e h a d a ls o a n o t h e r d o c u m e n t
that we had prepared.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t w a s m o r e d a ir y s p e c i fi c ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t h a d - w a s g iv i n g th e m t h e
p ic t u r e o f t h e d a ir y i n S o u t h A f r i c a .

Page 98 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

W h y d i d y o u n o t t a k e s o m e t h i n g li k e th a t to

P a r m a l a t o r N e s tl e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t t h e y - t h e y h a v e th e p i c tu r e o f t h e
d a ir y in S o u t h A f r ic a .

I c a n n o t g o t o P a r m a la t o r - o r N e s t le a n d t e l l

t h e m a b o u t t h e d a ir y in S o u t h - b e c a u s e t h e y k n o w t h o s e f a c ts a n d
fi g u r e s t h a t I h a d p r e s e n t e d to th e m th e r e . A l l I n e e d e d to p e r s u a d e
t h e m t o w o r k w i t h u s b e c a u s e t h e y k n o w t h e i n d u s t r y e v e n fa r b e t t e r
t h a n - th a n I w o u l d h a v e e x p l a i n e d i t .
A ll I n e e d e d t h e m t o s a y t h is is w h a t w e w a n t to d o .
10

in f o r m e d b y th is d o c u m e n t o f o u r s t h a t w e h a v e d e v e l o p e d .
w o r k w i th u s ?

I t is

Can you

W e w a n t t o f o c u s in t o d a i r y b u t w h e n y o u g o t o In d ia

t h e n y o u g iv e t h e m t h e p i c t u r e o f t h e d a ir y i n d u s tr y i n S o u t h A fr ic a s o
t h a t t h e y h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f - i f t h e y w o u l d w a n t to g o w h e r e
t h e y a r e g o in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n Mr B u t h e l e z i a p p e a r s t o w a n t t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g … ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S a y s o m e th in g .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

I t i s n o t m y i n t e n t io n t o d is r u p t t h e

li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Pr o c e e d i n g s b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 99 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

In

m y c a lc u l a ti o n n o w

we

have

e x c e e d e d a g o o d 1 5 m i n u te s d is c u s s i n g t h is p r e s e n ta t io n t h e q u a l i ty
t h e r e o f a n d w h e t h e r i t c o u l d h a v e f o u n d a p p li c a b i li ty l o c a l ly o r
in t e r n a t io n a l ly o r g lo b a l ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w i th r e s p e c t I h a v e b e e n tr y i n g t o
e s t a b li s h h o w i t t h e a d v a n c e s a n y o f th e c r i ti c a l is s u e s w h i c h w e n e e d
t o g e t t h r o u g h b e f o r e t h e e n d o f th e d a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : A n d if - i t i s - i t is a s u b j e c ti v i ty p o i n t .
I t is s u b j e c t iv e t o s a y w h e th e r I c o n s i d e r o n e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o b e o f
v a l u e o r n o t a n d i f t h e w i t n e s s t e s ti f ie s t h a t w e ll I th i n k t h i s w a s g r e a t
a n d th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r d o e s n o t h o ld t h e s a m e v i e w.

We cannot sit

a n d tr y h a g g l i n g o v e r th a t p o in t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l - w e l l I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t 1 5 m i n u te s .

That

might be …
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : M a y b e I a m s tr e tc h i n g i t b e c a u s e I a m
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a . I th in k y o u m i g h t b e s t r e tc h in g i t , j a .
20

M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I t h i n k i t is - i t is a n i m p o r t a n t a r e a . Yo u - y o u

w o u ld h a v e h e a r d m e s a y t o M s G c a b a s h e t h e q u e s t io n m ig h t r e la t e t o
s o m e t h i n g i m p o r t a n t . O n e o f th e - o n e o f th e t h i n g s th a t s ti ll in tr i g u e s
m e i s h o w i t w a s n o t p o s s i b le t o f in d a - a c o m p a n y w it h in S o u th A fr ic a
t o p a r t n e r w i t h th e m a n d h o w P a r a s w a s s e le c t e d …

Page 100 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And how a company so far away was found and so on
and so on.

N o w M s G c a b a s h e mi g h t h a v e h a d m o r e t i m e th a n I h a v e

h a d t o - t o f o c u s o n t h is d o c u m e n t b u t i t c o u l d b e - i t c o u l d b e t h a t h e r
q u e s t io n s a r e a i m e d a t s a y in g th a t th e p r e s e n ta t io n a t le a s t th a t p a r t o f
it t h a t i s in d o c u m e n t fo r m th a t y o u g a v e to l o c a l c o m p a n i e s w a s n o t
t h e k i n d o f d o c u m e n t t h a t h a d a n y c h a n c e o f p e r s u a d in g t h e m t o c o m e
o n b o a r d a n d - a n d m a y b e a n d s h e is n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s a y i n g t h a t b u t
s h e w il l s a y s o i f s h e s a y s th a t .
10

M a y b e t h e i d e a w a s t o g o a n d g e t P a r a s b u t a b l e to s a y l o c a l
c o m p a n i e s w e r e n o t i n te r e s t e d b u t t h e w a y y o u w e n t a b o u t it w a s n o t
m e a n t t o g e n e r a te a n y in t e r e s t fr o m t h e m a n y w a y. Yo u k n o w. S o - s o b u t t h a t is o n e a r e a - t h a t is o n e a n g le o n - o r w h i c h s h e m i g h t b e
p e r s u a d i n g - p u r s u in g a n d i f t h a t i s t h e a n g l e I a m q u i te i n te r e s t e d in i t
b e c a u s e I t h i n k e v e r y - e v e r y o n e w h o lis t - h a s b e e n l is te n in g t o
e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o t h i s p r o j e c t y o u k n o w is w o n d e r i n g h o w c o m e y o u
k n o w a c o m p a n y - t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s f o u n d t o p a r t n e r w a s in I n d i a
w h e n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a n d t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t s a y s
a c t u a ll y w e w a n te d l o c a l c o m p a n i e s b u t d i d n o t f i n d t h e m .

20

T h e y w e r e n o t i n te r e s t e d . S o l e t u s - l e t u s a ll o w i t a n d t h e n
le t u s s e e , ja .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I - I a c c e p t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I t h i n k w h a t tr ig g e r e d m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 101 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : To - t o - i n f a ir n e s s w a s t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th e i n i ti a l q u e s t io n h a d s ta r t e d t o s a y
h o w w o u ld P a r m a l a t h a v e a c c e p t e d t h is …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d th e n t h e q u e s ti o n is n o w h o w

w o u ld N e s tl e h a v e a c c e p te d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I a m t h i n k in g w e ll …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : T h e y d id n o t a c c e p t i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : W e n o w k n o w t h is .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : W e d o n o t t h i n k i t w a s a g r e a t q u a l it y
p r e s e n t a ti o n a n y w a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : H o w d i d P a r a s t h e n a c c e p t i t a n d t h e n
…

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : A n d t h e n le t u s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Ta k e t h e p o i n t f o r t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o t h a t is - t h a t is …
M R N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 102 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . T h a n k y o u . M s G c a b a s h e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. Chair …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

C h a i r m a n fo r t u n a t e l y I a m t h e o n e w h o is

le a d i n g e v id e n c e n o t Mr B u t h e l e z i. S o le t u s g o b a c k to t h i s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. Chair can - can I go back?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It - i t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Th a t

South

African

companies

u n d e r s t a n d G o v e r n m e n t o p e r a t io n s a n d t h e p r o g r a m s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t e x is t i n G o v e r n m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d - a n d w h e r e t h e y a r e r e q u ir e d t o
- to p a r tic ip a t e . Yo u d o n o t n e e d t o l e c t u r e t h e m i n - i n t h o s e t h i n g s
a n d t h e y k n o w t h e a m o u n t o f fu n d i n g a v a i la b l e f o r w h a t i n G o v e r n m e n t
b e c a u s e t h e y a r e e x p o s e d t o t h a t . W h a t y o u r e q u ir e fr o m y o u r s i d e a s
G o v e r n m e n t is to p e r s u a d e n o t - n o t t h e d o c u m e n t - r e p e a t o f a
d o c u m e n t - o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h e y h a v e s e e n in o r d e r t o b e a b l e to

20

persuade them.
I n - i n f a c t my u n d e r s ta n d i n g w o u l d b e if t h a t w o u l d h a v e
been the case would have had a great success on the development of
s m a ll h o l d e r f a r m e r s i f - if t h a t - t h a t is t h e - is t h e - is t h e - m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t p r iv a te s e c t o r s w o u ld h a v e w a n te d to b e in v o lv e d
t o g e th e r w i t h a l l P r o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n ts in a s s is ti n g s m a l lh o l d e r - o f

Page 103 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
w h ic h b u d g e t G o v e r n m e n t h a s .
We would have achieved great success.

We go to that

p e r s u a s i o n b u t w e d o n o t w in a n d - a n d I c o u ld g iv e y o u a n e x a m p l e
C h a ir.

W e - w e a r e s it t in g - w e a r e s i t ti n g i n th e Fr e e S ta t e w i t h

a n o t h e r p r o j e c t s t a te o f th e a r t o f fis h w h ic h w a s d o n e b y t h e C h in e s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e - o n th e s a m e p r i n c i p le s .

They

c a m e a n d t h e y b u i l t a v e r y b e a u ti f u l fi s h r e s e a r c h c e n t r e a n d t h e
p r o d u c t io n o f f i n g e r li n g a n d - a n d w e a r e s i tt i n g h e r e . W e h a v e g o t a
10

v e r y b i g f is h i n d u s tr y in S o u th A f r ic a w h ic h - w h ic h c o u ld h a v e d o n e i t .
N o w - n o w a l l - a l l t h a t I a m s a y i n g is t h a t i t i s n o t th a t e a s y th a t y o u
g o t h e r e a n d y o u p e r s u a d e a n d p e o p l e s a y w e a r e i n te r e s t e d .
T h e r e a r e o t h e r d y n a m ic s a t p l a y t h a t y o u - y o u c a n n o t
in fl u e n c e a n d y o u h a v e t o m o v e o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

O t h e r w i s e w e w o u ld - w e w o u l d b e

d o i n g - b e c a u s e a l l Pr o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t w o u l d s it w h ic h b u d g e t
w h e r e th e y w a n t t o a s s i s t s m a l lh o ld e r f a r m e r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t t h e e n tir e in d u s tr y i n S o u th A f r ic a
knows that.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th a t m o n e y is a v a il a b l e a n d t h e y

c o u l d c o m e p a r t n e r w i th t h e d e p a r t m e n t s a n d i m p le m e n t b u t i t i s n o t
h a p p e n in g .

Page 104 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Just for …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : F o r - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: No.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Can I go ahead?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

J u s t f o r c la r i ty a n d c o r r e c t m e a g a i n if I a m

w r o n g . T h a t C h i n e s e s p o n s o r e d fi s h e r ie s p r o j e c t …
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e C h in e s e a c t u a ll y p u t m o n e y in t o i t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . I t is v e r y d i ff e r e n t w h e n y o u a r e t a l k i n g
t o a l o c a l c o m p a n y b e c a u s e y o u h a v e to p e r s u a d e th e m f o r w h a te v e r
r e a s o n t o p u t m o n e y i n - in t h e s a m e w a y y o u p e r s u a d e d P a r a s t o p u t
m o n e y i n to t h i s p r o je c t e v e n tu a l ly. S o a ll I a m s a y i n g is I d o n o t t h i n k
y o u a r e c o m p a r i n g a p p le s w it h a p p l e s w h e n y o u lo o k a t t h e C h in e s e
s p o n s o r e d fis h - fi s h h a t c h e r y. I h a p p e n to k n o w a b o u t i t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

And the approach you would have been

m a k i n g t o t h e lo c a l S o u th A f r ic a n c o m p a n i e s . I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d y o u
t o s a y th a t y o u w e r e a s k i n g th e m t o s p o n s o r a s th e C h i n e s e h a v e d o n e
a n d th e y d o o n th e w h o le c o n ti n e n t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

B u t th a t y o u w a n te d t h e m t o c o m e in o n t h e

Page 105 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
d i ff e r e n t b a s i s b u t t h e y a r e lo c a l .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

W h a t - C h a i r w h a t - w h a t I - w e p e r s u a d e d t h e C h i n e s e th e s a m e w a y
b e c a u s e w e h a d to g o th e r e a n d - a n d s a y i f - i f y o u - i f t h is p r o je c t
w o u ld b e d o n e in S o u th A fr ic a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I n th e F r e e S t a t e t h i s w o u l d b e t h e

b e n e fi t to u s a n d - a n d th e C h i n e s e in v e s t e d th e m o n e y i n t h e
in fr a s tr u c t u r e b u t w e h a d t o b u d g e t t h e o p e r a t i o n s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t
10

b e c o m e s f u n c ti o n a l . I t b e c a m e t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f - o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t
to make sure that - that operates.
S o w e h a d t o m a k e m o n e y a v a il a b l e in - i n to th a t b u t w h a t I
a m tr y i n g t o e x p l a i n C h a ir is th a t w e - w e w o u l d n o t h a v e p e r s u a d e d
S o u th A fr ic a n s b e c a u s e t h e y u n d e r s t a n d t h e s it u a ti o n .

In - i n s o m e

in s t a n c e s I w o u l d - I w o u ld a c t u a l ly s a y i n f a c t i t w a s t h e p r iv a t e s e c t o r
w o u ld h a v e c o m e - s h o u l d h a v e c o m e t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o s a y c a n w e
w o r k w i t h y o u i n a s s is ti n g t h e s e fa r m e r s .
What would you want to do and how?

How much money do

w e h a v e a n d t h e n w e p la n t o g e th e r a n d w e i m p l e m e n t a n d w e a s s i s t .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n i f I m ig h t m o v e o n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h a t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t i f y o u h a d i n m in d

w h a t I h a d i n mi n d a b o u t w h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i m p o r t a n t t o p u t in t h e
d o c u m e n t . I t m a y b e - I s e e w e a r e fiv e t o fi v e . I t m a y b e s o m e t h i n g f o r
t o m o r r o w to l o o k a t w h a t t h e i m p o r t a n t fe a tu r e s w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h a t
o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t o b e i n t h e k i n d o f p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s

Page 106 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
g iv e n to t h e lo c a l c o m p a n ie s .
W e r e th o s e fe a t u r e s th e r e ?

Yo u k n o w.

T h a t - t h a t k in d o f

in f o r m a ti o n b u t m a y b e t h a t c a n b e d e a l t w i t h t o m o r r o w.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I - I w il l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : L o o k a t th a t C h a i r ma n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

I - I t h i n k p a r t o f th e d i ff ic u l ty o f c o u r s e is

a ls o j u s t t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t M r T h a b e t h e h a s n o t b e e n a b le t o - to g e t
10

h o l d o f . F o r in s ta n c e h is …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : H i s h ig h le v e l d e s k t o p …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Research …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W o u ld a l s o h a v e b e e n h e lp f u l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

But I know he has not been able to get hold

of that.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : To g e t it , ja .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A m I c o r r e c t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

I do not know if there are any other

Page 107 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u - y o u m i g h t h a v e . T h is i s r e a ll y a l l w e h a v e b e e n
a b l e t o g e t h o l d o f f r o m v a r i o u s s o u r c e s b u t i f y o u - y o u h a v e b e t te r
d o c u m e n t a ti o n t o h e l p th e C h a ir m a n u n d e r s t a n d t h e s e fe a t u r e s i n
r e s p e c t o f a lo c a l c o m p a n y th a t y o u w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d th e m t o b r in g t o
t h e t a b le o n t h is d a ir y p r o j e c t . I t w o u l d b e h e lp f u l …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o . T h a t i s f in e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

But

I

w il l

a ls o

lo o k

p r e s e n t a ti o n C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e i t w a s s i m il a r.

at

the

Setsoto

Not the same but

s i m il a r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I t w a s a ls o a d a ir y c o w h o t e l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e r e m i g h t b e t h i n g s w e c a n g l e a n fr o m
that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t w o u l d a s s is t th e C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r - C h a ir th e S e ts o to …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : D e t a i l h a d a lr e a d y b e e n d e v e lo p e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o w d u r in g t h e ti m e w h e n w e w e r e

Page 108 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
t a lk in g t o s tr a t e g ic p a r tn e r s w e h a d n o t e v e n d e v e l o p e d a c o n c e p t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e w a n te d to d e v e l o p a c o n c e p t

t o g e th e r w i t h s o m e b o d y w h o w o u l d w a n t t o b e p a r t o f i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e a d o c u m e n t

lik e y o u h a v e a t S e ts o to …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

B e c a u s e S e ts o t o h a d b e e n fu ll y

developed …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : By t h a t ti m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Fo r i m p le m e n ta t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t a t th is ti m e y o u w a n t - w h e n y o u
a g r e e th e n y o u b e g in t o d e v e lo p th e d o c u m e n t t o g e t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A l l - a ll t h a t y o u n e e d e d …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d it d i d n o t m e a n t h a t a f te r i t h a s

b e e n d e v e l o p e d t h e n y o u m u s t p u t t h e m o n e y.

Yo u g o t h a t t o g e t h e r.

W e a g r e e . W e d o t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n . W e d o th e f e a s i b i li ty s tu d y. I f w e
a g r e e t h e n w e i m p le m e n t . T h a t - t h a t w a s th e le v e l a t w h ic h t h i s w a s
d o n e b u t y o u - y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e a - a f u l ly - fl e d g e d d o c u m e n t b y th a t

Page 109 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
ti m e t o p r e s e n t to s o m e b o d y to s a y p l e a s e p u t m o n e y h e r e b e c a u s e
t h a t - th a t w a s n o t t h e i n te n ti o n .
I t w a s - i t w a s t o o d e v e l o p th e d o c u m e n t t o g e t h e r w i t h
w h o e v e r w a s i n te r e s t e d . H e n c e y o u d o n o t h a v e …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I u n d e r s t a n d th a t w e w o u l d h a v e d o n e
it o u r s e lv e s f ir s t a n d d o n e t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. D o n e e v e r y th i n g a n d a t
t h a t ti m e t h e n w e w o u l d g o a n d s a y w e h a v e a b u s in e s s p l a n . Th is is
the money we need.
10

Ar e y o u i n t e r e s t e d a n d - b u t t h a t w a s n o t t h e

a p p r o a c h t h a t w e w e r e l o o k in g a t .
CHAIRPERSO: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Hence we did not have a document

t h a t s h e m i g h t h a v e b e e n l o o k i n g f o r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

I

a ls o

have

in

mind

Mr Thabethe

the

d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d b y D a w ie M a r a is w h o y o u k n o w g a v e
e v i d e n c e h e r e b e c a u s e h e s p o k e t o - m u c h a s i t w a s a - a c r i t ic i s m in
p a r t - n o t i n w h o l e - i n p a r t o f th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t b u t t h e e l e m e n ts
o f - o f h o w y o u r u n a d a ir y fa r m w h a t y o u w o u ld r e q u ir e a r e i n t h a t
document.
20

M a y b e t h a t a l s o i s a s o u r c e d o c u m e n t w e c a n u s e t o h e lp th e
C h a ir m a n u n d e r s t a n d t h o s e f e a tu r e s t h a t y o u w o u l d w a n t t o u s e to
a tt r a c t a lo c a l c o m p a n y to i n v e s t w i t h y o u a n d w o r k o n s o m e th i n g t h a t
w i ll b e n e fi t th e Fr e e S t a t e Pr o v in c e . I d o n o t k n o w …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I f y o u t h i n k it is a g o o d o r b a d i d e a .

Page 110 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir I d o n o t a g r e e b e c a u s e h e
w a s c r i t iq u in g a d o c u m e n t th a t h a d a l r e a d y b e e n d e v e l o p e d .

He was

n o t c r i t iq u i n g th e in t e n t i o n . H e - h e i n h is d o c u m e n t h e s a i d th e r e w a s
n o t h i n g w r o n g w it h t h e i n t e n t io n t o d e v e l o p . S o h e lo o k e d a t a s p e c i f ic
d o c u m e n t th a t w a s d e v e lo p e d a l r e a d y a n d t h a t is w h a t h e w a s
c r i ti q u i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Yo u a r e c lo s i n g a ll t h e d o o r s I a m o p e n i n g

Mr Thabethe.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: No.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o a n d y o u a r e e n t i tl e d to a n d I r e ly o n y o u r
e x p e r t is e .

Yo u a r e a n e x p e r t i n t h is fi e l d w h i c h is w h y I a s k y o u th e

q u e s t io n s h a ll w e d o t h is , s h a l l w e d o t h a t a n d I - I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d
y o u r a n s w e r s a s w e l l. T h a t th is w a s a t i n c e p t io n t h a t y o u w e r e tr y in g to
p u t s o m e t h i n g t o g e t h e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: It was not a document that had already been
p r e p a r e d a n d y o u w e r e ju s t g o i n g t o - y o u w e r e a s k i n g p a r tn e r s t o c o m e
a n d w o r k w i t h y o u a n d c o n c e i v e a n d t a i l o r m a k e s o m e t h in g t h a t w o u ld
s u i t t h e Fr e e S t a t e P r o v i n c e .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

C h a ir - C h a ir w e - w e -

p r e v i o u s ly w h e n - w h e n w e d is c u s s e d t h is . I h a v e a l s o i n d ic a te d t h a t
u s i n g th e s a m e d o c u m e n t a n d c r i t e r ia w e m a n a g e d t o fi n d o t h e r
s tr a t e g y p a r t n e r s i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e t o d o o th e r p r o je c t s w h ic h w e h a v e
i m p l e m e n te d . S o t h i s d o c u m e n t d id n o t d i s m a ll y f a il . W e - w e w e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 111 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Able to achieve …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

U s i n g it b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e o t h e r

partners who said we understand you. We would want to work with you
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d t h o s e p r o je c t s w e r e i m p l e m e n t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:
10

C h a ir m a n I h a v e th r e e a n d f o u r w h i c h w e

h a v e d e a l t w i th a lr e a d y. M a y b e I s h o u ld ju s t p u t t h a t o n r e c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Annexure

U n d e r s t a n d in g

have

th a t

we

3

is

a lr e a d y

the

Memorandum

discussed

b e tw e e n

of
the

G o v e r n m e n t o f S o u t h A fr ic a a n d t h e G o v e r n m e n t o f - o f In d i a . S o w e
do

not

have

to

go

back

m o t iv a t i o n /s u b m is s i o n

you

to

th a t .

made

Then

Annexure

the

Premier

to

4

is

th a t

w it h

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f Mr Z w a n e . A g a in w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e m a t e r i a l .
We do not need to look - look at that. Annexure 5 we have
n o t r e c e iv e d a n d i t is a b i t o f a p i ty b e c a u s e th a t is t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n
20

t h a t y o u b r o u g h t b a c k fr o m P a r a s . W e - w e h a v e n o t - u n l e s s y o u h a v e
it .

W e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o f in d i t a n d it i s n o t p a r t o f t h i s C o u r t

b u n d l e o f y o u r s . I f y o u h a v e i t p le a s e s h a r e i t w i th u s M r T h a b e th e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I - I th in k i t is C h a ir i n t h e C o u r t

bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

Page 112 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e h e c a n lo o k a t i t o v e r n i g h t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n to m o r r o w m o r n i n g t h e n w e c a n …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: He can report back.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k s C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

T h e n to m o r r o w C h a ir m a n i f t h is is - a

c o n v e n i e n t ti m e
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : To s to p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W e c a n s t a r t w i th M P T 6 …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

D e p e n d in g o n w h a t Mr T h a b e t h e is a b l e to

fi n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: In regard to Annexure 5.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o th a t is f i n e . W h a t i s y o u r a s s e s s m e n t a t t h is
20

s t a g e o f h o w w e a r e lik e ly - h o w m u c h ti m e w e m i g h t n e e d …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r M r - to M r T h a b e th e t o m o r r o w ? D o e s i t l o o k … ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I f w e c o u l d h a v e t h e w h o le d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No that is right. We do have the whole day but I
a m ju s t w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r in t e r m s o f w h a t w e h a v e c o v e r e d s o f a r

Page 113 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
w h e t h e r i t g i v e s a n y i n d ic a ti o n w h e t h e r o u r p a c e is f i n e f o r t h e - t h e
w h o le d a y o r w h e th e r w e - w e mi g h t n o t fi n is h o r it m i g h t b e to o l it t le to
m a k e a n a s s e s s m e n t.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w e h a v e d o n e t o d a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

C h a ir m a n t h e i n t e n t io n is s t il l t o fi n i s h .

a r e o n q u e s t io n 5 5 o f 1 2 0 b e f o r e w e g e t t o t h e fi n a n c i a l s .

We

So I am

going to - I am going to chop …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I a m g o i n g t o tr y a n d r e d u c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h a t i s f i n e b u t t h e b o t t o m li n e is t h a t n o t h i n g
h a s - th a t h a s h a p p e n e d t h is a f te r n o o n c h a n g e s y o u r v ie w t h a t w e
s h o u l d b e a b le t o f in is h to m o r r o w ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I - I t h in k w e s h o u l d C h a i r m a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e s h o u ld b e a b l e , j a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S i m p ly b e c a u s e I w i ll c u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

B e c a u s e a l o t o f th e m a t e r ia l w e h a v e

covered.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o t h a t is fi n e . W e h a v e - w e h a d c o v e r e d
b u t I - I w il l a ls o h a v e lo o k . I d o r e c a ll t h a t I d i d h a v e s o m e i s s u e s th a t
I w a n te d to l o o k a t a g a in a n d th e n r a is e w i t h M r T h a b e t h e .

S o I w i ll

have a look.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Can we start at half past nine though

C h a ir m a n ? Is t h a t c o n v e n i e n t ?

Page 114 of 115

03 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 176
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h a t is w h a t I w a s n o w w a n t in g t o t a lk a b o u t .

P a r t ly t h a t is w h y I w a s a s k i n g th e q u e s t i o n b e c a u s e I w a s w o n d e r in g
w h e t h e r w e s h o u ld s t a r t a t 1 0 o r h a l f p a s t n in e d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t o u r
e s ti m a t e i s i n te r ms o f w h e t h e r w e w o u ld fi n i s h o n ti m e . S o m a y b e t o
b e o n t h e s a f e s i d e l e t u s s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n i n e t o g iv e u s ju s t a li t tl e
e x tr a .
W o u l d t h a t b e f i n e M r T h a b e t h e f r o m y o u r s id e s ta r t i n g a t h a l f
p a s t n in e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I w i ll b e fi n e C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d y o u r C o u n s e l i n d ic a te s i t w o u l d b e fi n e a s

w e ll . A lr ig h t w e w il l s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n i n e to m o r r o w. W e w il l a d jo u r n
f o r t h e d a y a n d t h e n s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n i n e t o m o r r o w. W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 4 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

Page 115 of 115