C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 03 SEPTEMB ER 2019 D AY 1 5 5 20 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 PROCEEDINGS ON 3 SEPTEMBER 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d M o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Th is m o r n i n g I a m g o i n g t o h a n d d o w n m y d e c is i o n o r d e l iv e r m y d e c is io n in a n a p p lic a ti o n th a t w a s b r o u g h t b y M s J a b u l e l a E li z a b e th S i s h u b a fo r c e r ta i n r e l ie f t h a t I w i ll d e a l w i t h s h o r tl y. B e f o r e I d o s o is th e r e a n y t h i n g y o u w i s h t o s a y M r P r e t o r i u s ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d I … 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: a tt o r n e y s . A n d I t h i n k n o t i fic a ti o n w a s g iv e n t o M s S is h u b a ’s Thank you. W h e n M r A n g e l o A g r iz z i te s t i fi e d b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s io n e a r li e r t h is y e a r o n o n e o r t w o o f t h e d a y s p a r t o f th e e v i d e n c e t h a t h e g a v e r e l a t e d to o r i n c lu d e d p e r s o n s t h a t h e s a i d h a d r e c e i v e d b r i b e s fr o m B o s a s a w i th i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o r r e c t io n a l S e r v ic e s a n d h e m e n ti o n e d o r s u g g e s t e d t h a t o n e o f th o s e p e r s o n s w a s M s J a b u l e la E li z a b e th S is h u b a w h o w a s e m p lo y e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o r r e c ti o n a l S e r v ic e s a t a c e r t a in t i m e . S i n c e t h e n Ms S i s h u b a h a s b r o u g h t a n a p p l ic a t i o n t o t h i s c o m m is s i o n i n t e r m s o f w h ic h s h e h a s 20 a s k e d f o r a n o r d e r t h a t M r A g r iz z i s h o u l d b e c a ll e d b a c k to th e c o m m i s s io n t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d t o s ta t e t h a t s h e t h a t i s M s S is h u b a n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y p a y m e n ts o r b r ib e s fr o m B o s a s a o r a n y o f th e e n t i ti e s r e l a t i n g to B o s a s a o r if h e i s u n a b le to s a y s o t h e n s h e s o u g h t le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e h i m . M s S i s h u b a ’s a p p l ic a t i o n w a s g i v e n t o Mr A g r iz z i w h o d e p o s e d t o a n a ff i d a v i t s u b s e q u e n t ly i n w h ic h h e m a d e i t Page 2 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 q u i te c le a r th a t h e h a d m a d e a n e r r o r i n s u g g e s ti n g t h a t Ms S is h u b a h a d b e e n p a id a n y b r i b e s o r a n y m o n ie s fr o m B o s a s a o r a n y e n ti ti e s c o n n e c t e d w i th B o s a s a . H e s a i d t h a t t h is h a d b e e n a r e s u l t o f c o n fu s i o n a n d in d i c a t e d t h a t h e w a s a p o lo g is i n g t o M s S i s h u b a a n d t h a t if h e c a m e b a c k t o t h e c o m m is s i o n h e w o u ld m a k e i t c l e a r th a t M s S is h u b a h a d n o t r e c e iv e d a n y b r i b e s fr o m B o s a s a . S u b s e q u e n t t o th a t M s S is h u b a d e p o s e d to a n o t h e r a ff i d a v i t w h e r e s h e a c k n o w l e d g e d th e a d m i s s i o n m a d e b y M s – Mr A g r iz z i b u t to o k i s s u e w it h t h e f a c t th a t Mr A g r iz z i h a d s a i d th a t h e h a d m a d e a m is t a k e a s a r e s u l t o f a c e r t a i n 10 q u e s t io n t h a t h e s a id – h e h a d s a id M r Pr e t o r i u s h a d a s k e d h i m a n d s h e s u g g e s t e d th a t M r A g r i z z i w a s n o t t a k i n g fu ll r e s p o n s i b il it y a n d a l s o s o u g h t t h a t t h e a p o l o g y th a t M r A g r i z z i s h o u l d m a k e s h o u l d b e in s p e c i f ic t e r m s t h a t s h e f o r m u la t e d . W r i t te n s u b m i s s i o n s h a v e b e e n m a d e b y b o t h s i d e s a n d Ms S is h u b a p e r s i s ts in h e r a p p li c a t io n b u t n o w I u n d e r s t a n d h e r n o t to s e e k a n y c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n o f M r A g r iz z i b u t o n ly s e e k s to h a v e a n o r d e r – t o b e g r a n t e d a n o r d e r t h a t w i ll c o m p e l M r A g r iz z i to c o m e b a c k to t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d m a k e a n a p o l o g y i n t h e t e r m s t h a t s h e d e m a n d s . I a m s a ti s fi e d t h a t M s S i s h u b a w a s j u s ti f ie d in b r in g in g a n a p p l ic a ti o n fo r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a mi n e M r A g r i z z i. I a m 20 n o t s u r e a b o u t th e r e l i e f o f c o m p e l li n g h i m t o c o m e b a c k t o t h e c o m m i s s io n b u t i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y t o d e c i d e t h a t i s s u e . T h e f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r is t h a t th e p l a n s o f t h e c o m m i s s io n a r e s u c h t h a t Mr A g r i z z i i s g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k t o th e c o m m i s s i o n i n o r d e r t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d t o b e c r o s s - e x a m in e d a n d h e h a s a lr e a d y i n d ic a t e d th a t o n t h a t o c c a s io n h e w il l b e p r e p a r e d to r e p e a t w h a t h e h a s s a i d i n h is a ffi d a v it n a m e ly Page 3 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t h a t h e m a d e a n e r r o r i n s u g g e s ti n g t h a t M s S is h u b a h a d b e e n p a id a n y b r i b e s b y B o s a s a o r a n y e n t i ti e s fr o m B o s a s a a n d th a t h e a p o lo g i s e s f o r h is e r r o r. H e h a s e v e n in d ic a t e d i n a l a t e r a ffi d a v i t t h a t h e t a k e s f u ll r e s p o n s i b i li ty fo r t h a t e r r o r. T h e r e fo r e i t is c l e a r t h a t t h e r e is r e a ll y n o d is p u t e o f f a c t b e t w e e n t h e v e r s i o n p u t u p b y M s S i s h u b a n a m e ly t h a t s h e n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n y p a y m e n ts o r b r i b e s fr o m B o s a s a a n d M r A g r iz z i ’s v e r s i o n a f te r th is is s u e w a s d r a w n t o h is a t t e n t io n . That t h e r e f o r e m e a n s t h a t th e r e is n o b a s is f o r m e t o g r a n t M r S is h u b a l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r A g r i z z i i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e is s u e o f w h e t h e r o r n o t 10 s h e h a d r e c e i v e d b r i b e s fr o m B o s a s a . S o t h e o n ly i s s u e i s w h e t h e r I s h o u l d m a k e a n o r d e r c o m p e l li n g M r A g r i z z i t o c o m e b a c k a n w h e t h e r I s h o u l d o r d e r t h a t M r A g r iz z i s h o u l d g iv e h i s a p o l o g y in t h e s p e c i f ic t e r m s t h a t a r e b e in g s o u g h t b y M s S is h u b a . 1 . S i n c e M r A g r iz z i h a s u n d e r t a k e n t o m a k e t h e a d m i s s i o n o r t o r e p e a t h i s a d m is s io n a n d t o r e p e a t h is a p o l o g y w h e n h e c o m e s b a c k a n d s i n c e h e is g o i n g t o b e b a c k i n t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d h e h a s s a i d h e t a k e s f u l l r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r t h e e r r o r th a t h a p p e n e d I s e e n o r e a s o n w h y I s h o u l d m a k e a n o r d e r c o m p e ll i n g Mr A g r i z z i t o c o m e a n d d o w h a t h e is g o in g t o d o a n y w a y. T h e r e i s n o b a s i s 20 t o t h i n k t h a t h e is n o t g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k b e c a u s e 1 . T h e c o m m i s s io n d o e s p l a n t o g e t h i m b a c k t o t h e c o m m i s s io n t o g iv e f u r t h e r e v i d e n c e a n d 2 . B e c a u s e h e i s p r e p a r e d to c o m e b a c k a n d c la r i fy t h e is s u e . W i th r e g a r d t o w h e th e r o r n o t I s h o u l d o r d e r h i m to m a k e a n a p o l o g y i n t h e s p e c if ic t e r m s s o u g h t b y M s Si s h u b a I a m u n a b l e t o a c c e d e t o t h a t Page 4 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 r e q u e s t . I t h i n k it is e n o u g h t h a t M r A g r iz z i h a s s a i d : 1 . H e m a d e a n e r r o r b y s u g g e s t in g t h a t M s S is h u b a h a d r e c e i v e d b r i b e s fr o m B o s a s a . 2 . H e s a id h e t a k e s f u l l r e s p o n s ib il i ty fo r t h a t . 3 . H e s a id h e a p o l o g is e s t o Ms S is h u b a f o r t h a t. 4 . H e s a i d h e w i ll r e p e a t a ll o f t h i s w h e n h e c o m e s b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s io n n e x t ti m e . I n t h o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s I d o n o t th i n k t h a t t h e r e is a n e e d f o r a n o r d e r. I m u s t j u s t m a k e i t c le a r a s I h a v e s a i d t h a t I a c c e p t t h a t M s S i s h u b a 10 w a s ju s t i fi e d i n b r in g in g t h e a p p lic a ti o n b u t I b e l i e v e th a t t h e d e v e l o p m e n ts t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d s i n c e t h e n m a k e i t u n n e c e s s a r y f o r m e o r i n a p p r o p r i a t e f o r m e t o m a k e a n o r d e r to t h e e ff e c t th a t h e is sought. I n t h e s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s a lt h o u g h M r A g r iz z i w i ll c o m e b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d p u b l ic l y a p o l o g i s e t o M s S is h u b a in d u e c o u r s e a n d m a k e i t c l e a r t h a t h e w a s m i s ta k e n w h e n h e s a id s h e h a d r e c e iv e d b r i b e s it is n o t n e c e s s a r y t o g r a n t t h e o r d e r s t h a t M s – o r in a p p r o p r ia t e – i t is i n a p p r o p r i a te to m a k e th e o r d e r s th a t M s S i s h u b a a s k e d f o r. In t h e s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h e a p p li c a t io n i s r e f u s e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir n o t e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n n o w a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t e n f o r th e h e a r in g o f e v i d e n c e . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y. Page 5 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u w e a r e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir t h is m o r n i n g w e i n t e n d le a d i n g th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr M z w a m a d o d a M x a k w e . CHAIRPERSON: J a i t l o o k s l ik e s o m e b o d y k e e p s o n g e t ti n g t h e s p e l li n g o f h is n a m e w r o n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I h a v e n o ti c e d th a t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: I s a w s o m e w h e r e th e y w r o te s o m e t h i n g a n d I s e e h e r e o n w h a t I a m l o o k in g h e r e i t is w r i t te n … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J a t h e y a r e m is s in g a n A . CHAIRPERSON: Mzwamadod. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i n th e d i v id e r. CHAIRPERSON: P le a s e make sure t h a t e v e r y o n e ’s n a m e s a n d s u r n a m e s a r e s p e lt c o r r e c t ly. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: J a a c tu a lly t h i s i s j u s t s o b a d . I m e a n h e is Mzwamadoda. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e r e i t i s w r i t te n M z w a m a d o d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h e w i tn e s s is p r e s e n t C h a ir m a y h e b e s w o r n i n ? W e a r e – t h e fi l e s m a y b e j u s t b e f o r e h e i s s w o r n i n . I h a v e Page 6 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a s k e d t h e R e g is tr a r t o p la c e b e fo r e y o u C h a ir E x h i b i t C C 5 t o 1 6 p l u s E x h i b i ts 2 6 a n d 2 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M a y I a s k y o u t o s t a r t a g a i n I w a s t e n d i n g to s o m e t h i n g e ls e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h l o o k i n g fo r i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C h a ir b e fo r e y o u y o u w i ll h a v e 10 E x h i b i ts 5 t o 1 6 a n d E x h i b i t 2 6 a n d 2 7 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W e ll 2 6 a n d 2 7 b e p l e a s e b e w r i t t e n w i t h a m a r k e r. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e l e g is la t i o n fi l e a n d th e o t h e r o n e w i ll b e r e p o r ts a n d … CHAIRPERSON: With a market they have written with a pen and I think a m a r k e r w i ll m a k e i t m u c h m o r e e a s i e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N e a t e r. I t w i l l b e a t t e n d e d t o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d – w e ll th e l e v e r a r c h fi le is Ex h ib i t C C . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 5 to 1 6 20 CHAIRPERSON: 05? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n C h a ir I h a d a s k e d t h e R e g is tr a r to open up Exhibit CC15. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 7 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W h i c h i s w h e r e th e s t a te m e n t o f t h is witness is. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay I have got that. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . May the witness be sworn in C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e a d m i n is t e r th e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n ? R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? 10 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Mzwamadoda Mxakwe. R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n i n t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : REGISTRAR: N o I d o n o t. D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I d o . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th ; i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : 20 So help me God. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d th a n k y o u M s N o r m a n . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . M r M x a k w e y o u h a v e g o t b e f o r e y o u th e le v e r a r c h fi l e th a t I h a v e p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u a n d n e x t to y o u y o u w i l l s e e t h e r e is Ex h ib i t 2 6 a n d Page 8 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 2 7 o n y o u r le f t h a n d s i d e i n t h a t b o x . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s 2 6 a n d 2 7 th e y h a v e b e e n p l a c e d – t h o s e a r e t h e f il e s t h a t y o u w il l b e r e fe r r i n g t o th is m o r n in g . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u r s ta t e m e n t a s y o u h a v e o p e n e d i s u n d e r th e d iv i d e r m a r k e d 1 5 , c a n y o u s e e t h a t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s , y e s I d o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e id e n ti fy 10 t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e s 1 t o 1 5 ? Is t h a t t h e i n i t ia l s t a te m e n t th a t y o u m a d e to t h e c o m m i s s i o n ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s it is . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d i t h a s a n n e x u r e s t o i t , a n n e x u r e s A t o E? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : J a . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I w o u ld ju s t lik e to t a k e y o u to p a g e 1 5 o f t h a t . C a n y o u p l e a s e t u r n t o th a t p a g e ? Ar e y o u t h e r e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I a m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ? 20 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s it is . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d I s e e n o d a t e w a s p u t in w h e n t h is o a t h w a s a d m i n i s te r e d f o r y o u . W h e n d i d y o u c o m m i s s io n – h a v e t h is c o m m i s s io n e d ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : O n t h e 1 4 t h A u g u s t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 1 4 t h A u g u s t? Page 9 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e r e d id y o u d o i t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I d i d i t i n J o h a n n e s b u r g . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d a n a t t o r n e y a d mi n is t e r e d t h e oath? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e n i f y o u g o t o p a g e 4 9 t o 6 3 t h a t is a s u p p l e m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t w h i c h y o u s u b m i tt e d t o th e c o m m i s s io n . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s it is . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d I w o u l d l ik e y o u to g o t o th e la s t p a g e o f t h a t s t a te m e n t a n d i d e n t if y i t ? T h i s w a s d o n e y e s te r d a y 2 n d S e p te m b e r. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W h ic h p a g e is it ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I beg your – page 62. If you go to page 62. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I a m th e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y d o y o u s e e t h a t? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I d o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e d a t e t h e r e is t h e 2 n d S e p t e m b e r 20 2019? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And it was commissioned here in Parktown? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . T h e s e s t a t e m e n t s t h a t y o u Page 10 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 m a d e b o th o f t h e m t o t h e c o m m is s i o n d id y o u m a k e t h e m v o l u n ta r il y ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I d i d ; ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d a r e t h e y c o n t e n ts o f b o t h th e m a in a n d th e s u p p l e m e n t a r y tr u e a n d c o r r e c t? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th e o n ly t h i n g i f I m a y o n p a g e 9 t h e r e is a t y p o th e r e . I t s a y s fr o m 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 8 i t s h o u l d r e a d fr o m 2 0 1 8 to 2019. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To 2 0 1 9 . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y b e j u s t t o [i n d is t in c t] t h e d e f e c t o n t h e c o m m i s s io n – o n t h e o a t h o n e w o u ld h a v e t o d o a s u p p l e m e n t a r y w h e r e y o u c a n c o n f ir m t h a t t h i s s t a t e m e n t , th e i n i ti a l o n e th a t y o u s u b m i t t e d w a s s i g n e d o n th e d a t e w h i c h is n o t r e f le c t e d o n it a n d a ls o w e w i ll d o a s u p p l e m e n ta r y d e a l in g w i th t h e d a t e s th a t y o u a r e a s k in g t h e C h a ir t o amend. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A lr ig h t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n M s N o r m a n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t – I s e e t h a t th e c o m m i s s io n e r o f o a th s in r e g a r d t o Mr M x a k w e ’s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t w a s s o m e b o d y c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e c o m m is s i o n . I t h in k n o r m a l ly w h a t i s r e q u ir e d i s t h a t th e c o m m i s s io n e r o f o a t h s s h o u ld n o t b e c o n n e c te d in a n y w a y w i t h y o u r Page 11 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a tt o r n e y s o r t h e in s ti t u t i o n . S o I t h i n k j u s t – I t h i n k c o m m is s i o n e r s a n d o th e r m e m b e r s o f th e l e g a l te a m m u s t b e a d v i s e d th a t a s f a r a s p o s s i b le w i t n e s s e s w h e n t h e y d e p o s e t o a ffi d a v i t s t h a t w il l c o m e b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n t h e c o m m is s i o n e r o f o a t h s s h o u l d n o t b e a n y b o d y c o n n e c t e d w i th t h e c o m m i s s io n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I w i ll s e e th a t s i g n a t u r e y e s I w i ll – w e w il l a d v is e t h e m a c c o r d i n g ly C h a ir. T h is is a c o n s ta b l e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: I think it is the second one. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h th e c o n s ta b l e a lr ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t I – t h a t I n o t ic e h a s g o t a c o m m i s s io n e r o f oaths. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o i s c o n n e c te d to t h e c o m m i s s io n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w il l d o t h a t C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr M x a k w e c o u l d y o u j u s t b r i e fly t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t y o u r q u a li fi c a t io n s ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir p e r s o n g o o d m o r n in g . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Mr Mxakwe. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I hold a Masters Degree in Global P o li ti c a l E c o n o m y f r o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f S u s s e x . A ls o a n H o n o u r s a n d a M a s t e r s fr o m U C T a n d P o s t G r a d D i p l o m a i n B u s i n e s s A d m i n f r o m G I B S a s w e l l a s Ex e c u ti v e L e a d e r s h i p D e v e l o p m e n t Tr a in i n g fr o m t h e London Business School. Page 12 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a n k y o u . I – I n o t i c e Ms N o r m a n t h a t I m u s t b e o l d f a s h i o n e d b e c a u s e I s e e t h a t Mr M x a k w e w h e n h e s t a t e s h is q u a li fi c a t io n s h e s ta r t s w i th t h e m o s t r e c e n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e h i g h e s t a n d g o e s d o w n a n d I th i n k Mr M a h k a t h i n i d i d th e s a m e y e s t e r d a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i d th e s a m e y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I fr o m t i m e to t i m e I s e e C V ’s w h e r e p e o p l e s t a r t w i t h t h e l a te s t d e v e l o p m e n t s i n t h e ir li v e s . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And go back. But… A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To m a t r ic . CHAIRPERSON: S o m e o f u s a r e u s e d t o s ta r t i n g a t t h e b a c k a n d c o m i n g t h i s w a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S t a r t w i t h y o u r m a tr ic c e r ti f ic a te . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e it s h o w s t h a t s o m e o f u s h a v e b e e n a r o u n d f o r a lo n g t i m e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F o r a l o n g ti m e y e s . CHAIRPERSON: And are not changing. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l tr y a n d a d a p t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M r M x a k w e is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a r e c u r r e n tly t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r o f t h e S A B C ? Page 13 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s it is . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: When did you join the SABC? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I jo in e d t h e S A B C o n t h e 1 s t J u ly 2 0 1 8 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . M a y b e ju s t b r i e fly c o u l d y o u ju s t g iv e t h e C h a ir – C h a ir p e r s o n b a c k g r o u n d a b o u t y o u r w o r k e x p e r i e n c e b e f o r e y o u jo i n e d th e S A B C ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B e f o r e I j o in e d t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s th e E x e c u tiv e D i r e c t o r f o r a m u l ti n a ti o n a l c o m p a n y fo r th e S o u th e r n a s w e ll a n d t h e E a s t e r n A f r ic a n r e g i o n . A f t e r t h a t I t h e n w e n t 10 t o w o r k i n E u r o p e a s t h e Vi c e Pr e s i d e n t a t t h e H e a d Q u a r te r s o f t h e s a m e m u l ti n a t io n a l . A n d t h e n I th e n c a m e b a c k s p e n t a f t e r b e in g t h e r e f o r f o u r y e a r s I m o v e d t o L a g o s N i g e r ia w h e r e I w a s t h e C o m m e r c i a l H e a d fo r L a g o s a n d in 2 0 1 5 I r e tu r n e d h o m e a n d I w a s t h e n t h e C o u n tr y H e a d r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h e c o m m e r c i a l o p e r a ti o n s i n fiv e c o u n tr i e s a n d a ft e r t h a t I th e n j o i n e d t h e S A B C . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a n k y o u . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : M s N o r m a n b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I w e n t t o M s M x a k w e ’s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t a n d t h e n w h e n I – w e r e s u p p o s e d t o g o b a c k t o h is o r i g i n a l a ff id a v i t I g o t lo s t . W h i c h d i v i d e r m u s t I g o t o ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir th is o n e C C 1 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h a t i s t h e o n e y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h n o w. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a t is th e o n e w e a r e d e a l in g w i th y e s Page 14 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Is t h e r e n o d iv i d e r b e tw e e n 1 5 a n d t h e supplementary? Between the main. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o y o u m u s t j u s t r e m in d m e th e d iv id e r is a t 1 6 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is 1 5 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 5 o k a y. Okay I have got it. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Thank you. May I proceed Chair? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . Th e n a s t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ffi c e r c o u l d y o u ju s t te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t is y o u r r o l e w i t h i n th e S A B C b r i e f ly ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : M y r o le C h a ir p e r s o n a s th e G r o u p C E O o f th e S A B C i s t o e n s u r e th e s tr a t e g ic d ir e c ti o n o f th e o r g a n is a ti o n . Ve r y i m p o r t a n t ly t o m a k e s u r e t h a t e v e r y s i n g l e i n d iv i d u a l a n d e v e r y s in g le d iv is i o n i s g e a r e d t o w a r d s t h e fu l fi l li n g o f t h e p u b l ic m a n d a te o f t h e S A B C . I a m a ls o r e s p o n s i b l e fo r a s t h e A c c o u n t in g O ffi c e r f o r t h e fi n a n c i a l m a n a g e m e n t o f th e o r g a n is a ti o n b u t a ls o t o p r o v i d e le a d e r s h i p 20 t o t h e d i ffe r e n t d iv is i o n s w i t h i n t h e S A B C . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . T h e – y o u w e r e p r e s e n t w h e n th e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d t e s ti fi e d y e s te r d a y, i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I w a s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d m o s t o f t h e s tr a t e g i e s h e h a d c o v e r e d b u t I w o u l d ju s t t a k e y o u t o s o m e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t w o u ld r e la t e to y o u Page 15 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a s t h e G r o u p C E O . Fir s t o f a ll c o u ld y o u j u s t t u r n to p a g e 2 a n d w h e r e y o u d e a l w i th th e r e v e n u e s tr e a m s o f t h e S A B C i n p a r a g r a p h 4 . 1 ? C o u ld y o u j u s t m e n ti o n t h o s e t o th e C h a i r p e r s o n p le a s e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir p e r s o n o u r r e v e n u e b a s e f r o m a c o m m e r c ia l p o i n t o f v ie w is d iv id e d i n t o t h r e e s tr e a ms . T h e fi r s t o n e is 8 4 % o f o u r r e v e n u e is g e n e r a t e d t h r o u g h a d v e r t is in g s p o n s o r s h i p s . T h e s e c o n d o n e is t h r o u g h T V l ic e n c e s a b o u t 1 5 % o f th a t a n d th e n fr o m th e g o v e r n m e n t g r a n ts w e g e t a b o u t 3 % . J u s t t o g iv e y o u a s e n s e l a s t y e a r a n d t h e s e a r e u n a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s b u t la s t y e a r t h e t o t a l r e v e n u e w a s 10 a t 6 . 5 b i ll io n a n d 2 0 0 m i ll io n o f th a t w a s fr o m g o v e r n m e n t . Th e r e s t w a s fr o m t h e r e v e n u e g e n e r a t e d f o r a d v e r ti s i n g a n d t h e n a b il li o n o f t h a t w a s f r o m T V l ic e n c e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Thank you. T h e C h a ir p e r s o n d i d m e n ti o n y e s t e r d a y a n d a s y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 m o s t o f – s o m e o f th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u f o u n d a t t h e ti m e o f y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t b e i n g th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t , A d - H o c C o m m i t te e R e p o r t o f P a r li a m e n t a n d I n t e r n a l A u d i t R e p o r ts t h a t w e r e t h e r e a n d th e S p e c i a l I n v e s ti g a t i o n R e p o r ts . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Yo u c o n fir m th a t t h o s e a r e m a in ly t h e r e p o r t s t h a t y o u w e r e w o r k in g fr o m ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n s o r r y. A n d w h a t I w o u l d lik e t o ta k e y o u t o is w h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 3 b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e m a t t e r s t h a t w o u l d f a ll w i t h i n y o u r k n o w l e d g e a n d t h a t o f th e F in a n c ia l O ffi c e r Page 16 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 w h o i s g o i n g t o c o m e l a t e r. Th e – y o u d e a l in p a r a g r a p h 8 w i th t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a ls R e p o r ts t h a t h a d in d i c a te d c o ll a p s e o f g o v e r n a n c e w i t h i n t h e S A B C . S o h o w h a v e y o u n o w – h a v i n g b e e n n o w a t th e h e l m o f – o f t h e S A B C h o w a r e y o u d e a li n g w i th t h o s e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir p e r s o n th e S A B C f o r m a n y y e a r s w a s s u b je c t e d t o a s y s te m a t ic c o l la p s e o f g o v e r n a n c e a s w e ll a s fi n a n c i a l p r o c e s s e s . A n d y o u s e e th is i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e r e w a s a c o m p l e t e d is r e g a r d fo r S A B C p o l ic ie s a s w e ll a s S A B C p r o c e s s e s b u t a ls o a h u g e la p s e w h e n i t c o m e s t o i n te r n a l c o n tr o ls a n d g o v e r n a n c e 10 processes. And what we have done and we have been on record on t h e s e w e h a v e l o o k e d a t a ll o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. T h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s fr o m t h e A d - H o c C o m m i t te e a s w e l l a s in t e r n a l fo r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t io n s b y t h e S A B C . In m y c a r e e r I h a v e n e v e r c o m e a c r o s s a n o r g a n is a ti o n w h e r e i n o n e fi s c a l y o u h a v e c l o s e t o 1 8 6 r e p o r t s a n d t h o s e r e p o r ts w o u l d b e d o c u m e n t i n g m a l e fi c e n c e , fr a u d , c o r r u p ti o n . A n d I t h i n k i f y o u s a y 1 8 6 th e t e n d e n c y i s t o t h i n k t h a t is in d i v i d u a l e m p l o y e e s t h a t 1 8 6 r e fe r s t o c a s e s b e c a u s e 1 c a s e c a n a c t u a ll y fo c u s o n a g r o u p o f p e o p l e . S o w h a t w e h a v e b e e n d o i n g w e h a v e d o i n g a n d I s a y t h e m a n tr a th a t w e u s e i s t o a l w a y s [i n te r v e n e s ] 20 CHAIRPERSON: I mean I am sorry Mr M xakwe when you refer to 186 y o u t a lk a b o u t 1 8 6 c a s e s o f w r o n g d o i n g ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B a s e d o n th e in t e r n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n d o n e , c o r r e c t. CHAIRPERSON: A n d th o s e in v e s t i g a t io n s a m o u n t in g to t h e s a m e n u m b e r 1 8 6 o r n o t r e a l ly ? Page 17 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th e y d o n o t a m o u n t i n to t h e s a m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B u t th e c a s e s b u t t h e i n d iv id u a ls a n d more. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c a s e s t h a t th e y d e a l w i t h . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e c a s e s t h a t t h e y d e a l w i th a r e i n th a t r e g io n ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y y e s . Th a n k y o u . 10 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o w h a t w e h a v e t h e n b e i n g d o in g a n d in e v e r y s i n g le t h i n g a n d i n e v e r y s in g l e c a s e w e h a v e e n s u r e d t h a t w e f o ll o w d u e p r o c e s s , d is c i p l in a r y m e a s u r e s h a d t o b e e n a c te d i n e v e r y s in g le c a s e th a t i s c o n c e r n e d a n d I h a v e s a i d t h is w e h a v e t o d o w h a t is r i g h t f o r t h e S A B C . A n d t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h w e d o t h is i s v e r y tr a n s p a r e n t. Yo u g o t h r o u g h th e n e c e s s a r y d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s e s a n d it d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h o y o u a r e a n d w e h a v e b e e n s u b j e c t e d t o a l o t o f b a c k l a s h a s a r e s u l t o f t h is . A n d a s I s a i d t o t h e te a m e v e r y s i n g l e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d e v e r y s i n g l e c a s e n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i t h in l in e w it h o u r in t e r n a l p r o c e s s e s . S o to a n s w e r t h e q u e s t io n w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h 20 a l l o f t h o s e c a s e s b u t a t th e s a m e t i m e w e a r e s tr e n g t h e n i n g i n t e r n a l c o r p o r a t e c o n tr o ls w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e s e p a r tic u l a r ly in a s fa r a s a d h e r e n c e t o t h e S A B C p o l ic ie s a r e c o n c e r n e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . A n d th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 9 y o u d e a l w i t h ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e w h ic h s t o o d a t 4 . 9 8 b i ll io n a s a t 3 1 s t March 2018. S o t h e q u e s ti o n is n o w if y o u fr o m th e t i m e y o u w e r e Page 18 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a p p o i n t e d y o u w e r e tr y in g to d o t h e r i g h t t h i n g w h y – w h e r e d o e s t h i s 4 .9 8 b il li o n c o m e f r o m a s c o n s t i tu t in g i r r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e ? CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y M s N o r m a n p le a s e d o n o t fo r g e t y o u r q u e s t io n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M r M x a k w e – Mr M x a k w e o n th is 1 8 6 c a s e s a r e y o u a b l e to s a y a t t h is s t a g e h o w m a n y h a v e b e e n fi n a li s e d i n te r m s o f d e a li n g w i th t h e m – i n te r ms o f y o u r i n t e r n a l p r o c e s s e s t o d e a l w i t h t h e m i n s o fa r a s th e y m a y r e l a t e t o e m p l o y e e s w h o h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d 10 in w r o n g d o in g a n d s o o n ? O r i s th a t s o m e th in g t h a t i s n o t e a s y to s a y r ig h t n o w ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : N o i t is – i t is e a s y to s a y C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e r e a r e t w o s tr e a m s . T h e r e a r e i n v e s ti g a t io n s th a t a r e d o n e b y t h e S I U a n d w h e n t h e y r e p o r t b a c k t o u s i n t e r m s o f th e ir fi n d i n g s w e in s t i tu t e th e r e q u ir e d c o n s e q u e n c e m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B a s e d o n t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : 20 A n d o v e r a l l i n te r n a l ly w e h a v e h a d a b o u t 8 6 o f t h e s e c a s e s d e a l t w i t h a n d t h e r e is a b o u t 3 8 th a t a r e s ti ll o u t s t a n d i n g a n d t h e p r o c e s s e s c o n t i n u in g . I d o k n o w th a t t h e H R G E w i ll b e h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : To g iv e s p e c i f ic s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Page 19 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B u t th e r e h a s b e e n a lo t o f p r o g r e s s . B u t I t h i n k a l s o C h a ir p e r s o n i f I m a y a d d ? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t i s a n e v e r e n d in g p r o c e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : E v e r y s in g l e d a y I a m c o n f r o n t e d w i t h r e p o r t s t h a t d a t e b a c k t o 2 0 1 2 , 2 0 11 , 2 0 1 4 o n c a s e s th a t w e r e n o t a tt e n d e d to d e l i b e r a t e ly s o m e ti m e s . A n d w e h a v e a ls o a d u t y a s t h e SABC to do what is right and in the process we have to ensure that we 10 f o ll o w d u e p r o c e s s i n a l l o f th e s e c a s e s . S o w e d o h a v e d i ffe r e n t n u m b e r s a n d d i ff e r e n t c a s e s w h e r e w e k n o w t h a t w e h a v e c o m p le t e d these. CHAIRPERSON: No thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y b e I c o u l d m e n ti o n t o C h a ir th a t m o s t o f th o s e a r e in th e fi le s o f M r Zg o d e [ ? ] t h e t e n le v e r a r c h fi le s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u w e w i ll d e a l w i t h t h e m w h e n h e c o m e s . T h a n k y o u . T h e q u e s t io n w a s , h o w t h e n d o e s o n e fi n d 20 s o m u c h ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e I k n o w i t w a s b e fo r e y o u r t i m e b u t t h i s i s as at 31st March 20128? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir p e r s o n t h e p a r a g r a p h 9 d e p ic ts t h e r o t a n d t h e m a l e fic e n c e t h a t h a s ta k e n p l a c e a t t h e S A B C i n th e past number of years. T h o s e ir r e g u la r e x p e n d it u r e f ig u r e s t h e y d a te b a c k to 2 0 1 2 . Yo u w i ll s e e h e r e i n y e a r o n y e a r t h e r e is a n i n c r e a s e o n Page 20 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t h is a n d t h e r e i f f o u r r e a s o n s w h y. T h e f ir s t r e a s o n is th a t t h e r e w a s a b l a ta n t d is r e g a r d fo r t h e s u p p ly c h a i n p r o c e s s e s o f t h e S A B C . The s e c o n d o n e w h i c h w a s r e a l ly c o m m o n p l a c e w a s t h e – t h e p a y m e n ts o f c e r t a i n c o n t r a c t s o f c e r t a i n d e a ls w i t h o u t h a v i n g a p r o p e r c o n tr a c t i n place. T h e t h i r d o n e w a s d e v i a ti o n s a n d t h e s e d e v ia t io n s w e r e d e li b e r a t e b e c a u s e th e y w e r e n o t e v e n in li n e w i t h th e c r i t e r i a w h e n i t c o m e s t o e m e r g e n c y f o r s o le s o u r c e o r t h e y w e r e n o t e v e n a p p r o v e d b y Tr e a s u r y. B u t t h e f o u r th o n e w a s t h e s e n s e o r r a th e r t h e fa c t t h a t th e r e w a s a p r a c t ic e o f e n s u r in g t h a t t h e m a n a g e m e n t t h e n w o u l d g o t h r o u g h 10 t h e r e q u e s t f o r q u o t a t i o n i n s t e a d o f g o i n g t h r o u g h a c o m p e ti t iv e b i d d i n g p r o c e s s . S o th e a c c u m u l a ti o n h a s b e e n y e a r o n y e a r. I t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t s t a r t e d in 2 0 1 2 . Yo u w i ll s e e t h e r e is a n a t ta c h m e n t th a t w e h a v e in c l u d e d h e r e w h e r e it a c t u a l ly s p e c i f ic a l ly s h o w s w h ic h c o n tr a c t s w e r e n o t d o n e p r o p e r l y w h y is i t a s w e s t a n d w e h a v e t h e r e 4 .9 8 b il li o n . I n t e r m s o f t h e s e c o n d q u e s ti o n t h a t y o u a s k in g w e h a v e a p p li e d f o r c o n d o n a t i o n t o Tr e a s u r y o f 2 .7 b il li o n o f a l l o f t h e s e a n d t h is i s b a s e d o n th e f a c t th a t s o m e o f t h e s e c a s e s m a y h a v e b e e n c o n c l u d e d , s o m e o f t h e m a r e g o i n g t h r o u g h l i ti g a t io n w i t h t h e S I U a n d s o f o r t h . S o th e r e is a s y s t e m i n p l a c e w h e r e w e e n s u r e w e a p p ly. B u t a t a n o p e r a t io n a l 20 le v e l w e h a v e p u t t o g e t h e r a t e a m t h a t l o o k s a t a u t o m a ti n g a ll o f t h e s e ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i tu r e i t e ms a n d t h e i d e a t h e r e is t o e n s u r e in t e r n a l c o n tr o ls a r e p la c e . T h e r e is a fr a m e w o r k th a t c a n p r o p e r ly m o n i to r w h e r e w e a r e in t e r m s o f t h e s e . A n d th e t h ir d p o i n t b e c a u s e o f t h e h i g h n u m b e r i n fa c t y e a r t o d a t e it is a t 5 . 2 b i ll io n in t e r m s o f ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e . T h e s t a n d i n g c o m m i t t e e o n p u b lic a c c o u n t s h a s a s k e d u s Page 21 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 e v e r y s i n g l e m o n th t o s u b m i t p r o g r e s s r e p o r t s o n h o w w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e s e ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d t h is ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e y o u h a v e g o t t o r e fl e c t i t i n y o u r b o o k s y e a r i n o n – o n a y e a r l y b a s is a n d y o u c a n n o t n o w s a y l o o k b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t p a r t o f o u r te r m i t w i ll n o t b e r e f le c te d . S o it c o n t in u e s r e fl e c t in g a s ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e e v e n t h o u g h y o u w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d in i t a t th e ti m e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A s l e a d e r s h ip y o u i n h e r i t b o th t h e g o o d a n d th e b a d . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A n d i n t h i s c a s e t h e a s s e ts a s w e ll a s t h e li a b il i ti e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d th e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I a m s o r r y Ms N o r m a n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h a t M r M x a k w e h a s m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o S C O PA . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t n e e d t o m e n ti o n th i s a n d y o u a n d t h e l e g a l t e a m c a n t a k e i t f o r w a r d a n d w e c a n d i s c u s s i n d u e c o u r s e . I w o u l d l ik e in 20 d u e c o u r s e to h a v e d o c u m e n ta t io n t h a t w i l l te ll m e w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g o v e r th e y e a r s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n e v e r t h e S A B C w e n t t o t h e r e l e v a n t P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e i n P a r l ia m e n t w h e th e r i t w a s t h e C o m m u n i c a t io n s P o r t f o li o C o m m i t t e e o r S C O PA I w o u ld l ik e t o s e e w h a t w a s s a i d a b o u t is s u e s Page 22 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 r e l a ti n g t o m a t te r s t h a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h . B e c a u s e o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d is t o w h a t e x t e n t d i d P a r l ia m e n t p l a y i t s p r o p e r r o l e i n t e r m s o f o v e r s i g h t t o t h e e x t e n t th a t m a t t e r s h a v e r e a l ly g o t t o a c o m p le t e l y u n a c c e p ta b le l e v e l in t e r m s o f t h in g s o f w r o n g d o i n g a n d – a n d c o r r u p t io n a n d fr u i tl e s s a n d w a s t e f u l e x p e n d i tu r e o v e r y e a r s ? W h e r e – w a s P a r l ia m e n t p r o b i n g t h o s e m a t te r s ? W h a t w e r e th e y d o i n g a b o u t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h e y w e r e g e t ti n g o r w e r e t h e y n o t b e i n g g iv e n c o r r e c t i n f o r m a t i o n b y t h e m a n a g e m e n t a n d th e b o a r d o v e r t h e y e a r s o r t h e b o a r d s . S o a t s o m e s t a g e w e – I n e e d t o h a v e t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir w e h a v e n o te d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t le t u s c o n t i n u e . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e n in p a r a g r a p h 1 0 y o u c o n f ir m w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n c o n fi r m e d y e s te r d a y ? MR M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Indeed th e SABC is t e c h n ic a l ly in s o lv e n t a n d I t h i n k C h a ir th e w a y y o u w o u l d n e e d to lo o k in t o t h is is t o lo o k a t t h e s h o r t te r m l i a b il it i e s th a t e x c e e d o u r c u r r e n t li q u i d a s s e ts . S i m p ly p u t w e c a n n o t a n d w e a r e n o t a b l e a s t h e S A B C t o p a y o u r c r e d i to r s . To d a t e w e a r e s t a n d i n g a t 1 .8 b i ll io n a n d i f I m a y a l s o if y o u g o b a c k t o t h e p r e v i o u s f is c a l a t t h e e n d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 8 t h a t 20 n u m b e r w a s s t a n d in g a t 1 . 2 b i lli o n . B u t i t g o t – i t i n c r e a s e d b e c a u s e w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b le to p a y S y n t a x w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b le to p a y M u l tic h o ic e a n d s o m e o f o u r c r e d i t o r s . T h e b i g g e s t is s u e w i t h t h a t p a r a g r a p h i s t h e n t h e is s u e a r o u n d t h e s o lv e n c y a n d t h e li q u i d i ty te s t o f t h e S A B C . W e r u n a n o r g a n is a t io n C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e e v e r y s i n g l e m o n th e m p l o y e e s a r e v e r y d e p r e s s e d . T h e y d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y Page 23 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a r e g o in g t o b e a b le t o g e t t h e i r s a l a r ie s o r n o t. A n d t h e o n ly t h in g t h a t w e f o c u s o n e v e r y s in g l e m o n t h i s t h e 2 6 5 m i ll io n t h a t is d e d ic a t e d t o w a r d s p a y i n g s a la r i e s . a b s o l u t e ly n o th i n g l e f t . O n c e w e h a v e d o n e t h a t w e a c tu a lly h a v e W e t h e n h a v e t o g e t in t o e n g a g e m e n t s , in t o a r r a n g e m e n ts w i th a l l o f o u r c r e d it o r s a n d t h e y h a v e b e e n e x tr e m e ly u n d e r s t a n d in g b u t y o u c a n n o t g o o n li k e th a t . D e s p it e t h e s o li d s tr a t e g y t h a t w e n e e d I m e a n w e h a v e a n d I m u s t a d m i t a l s o w h e n I t o o k t h is j o b o n t h e 1 s t my u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th a t t h e r e w a s c a p i t a l r e in je c t i o n t h a t w a s e x p e c t e d . 10 B e c a u s e C h a ir p e r s o n i t d o e s n o t m a t te r h o w r o b u s t a n d s o li d a s tr a t e g y y o u h a v e i f t h a t is n o t r e - c a p i t a l is e d a n d t h e r e is n o fi n a n c i a l in j e c ti o n i t c a n n o t w o r k . A n d t h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y t h e S A B C h a s b e e n a b l e t o s t a y a fl o a t a s i t h a s i t i s t h a n k s t o t h e c o m m i t m e n t a n d t h e h a r d w o r k in g a n d t h e p a s s i o n t h a t h a s b e e n d is p la y e d b y m a n y o f o u r e m p lo y e e s . S o t h e – th is s t a t e m e n t is in d e e d c o r r e c t t h a t t h e c o m p a n y i s t e c h n ic a lly in s o lv e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u k n o w i t is – i t is v e r y w o r r y i n g . It is v e r y w o r r y in g . I m e a n t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d w a s s a y i n g e x a c tl y th e s a m e t h i n g y e s t e r d a y a n d w e a l l k n o w th a t i t is n o t ju s t S A A – S A B C . T h e r e a r e is s u e s w i t h S A A , E s k o m , D e n e l . 20 I m e a n th e r e h a v e b e e n o v e r t h e y e a r s M in is t e r s r e s p o n s i b le f o r – fo r t h e s e e n t i ti e s . There h a v e b e e n C E O ’s . T h e r e h a v e b e e n C F O ’s . T h e r e h a v e b e e n b o a r d s . P a r li a m e n t h a s b e e n th e r e t o o v e r s e e , t o e x e r c is e o v e r s ig h t . H o w d id t h is - a ll o f th e s e t h i n g s h a p p e n w h e n t h e r e w e r e a ll t h e s e p e o p l e ? H o w d id w e g e t t o a p o s it i o n w h e r e s t a t e e n t it i e s h a v e r e a c h e d t h is le v e l? I t is a v e r y, v e r y w o r r y i n g t h i n g . Page 24 of 150 I guess I am just asking a 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 q u e s t io n t h a t m a n y o f u s a r e a s k in g b u t i t i s - i t is a s e n s e o f fr u s tr a ti o n t o s a y w h a t is i t t h a t a s a c o u n tr y w e g o t w r o n g i f t h e p o s i ti o n is th a t s o m a n y s tr u c t u r e s a p p e a r t o h a v e fa il e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e d i d n o t - t h e s e S O E s d i d n o t r e a c h t h e le v e l t h a t th e y h a v e r e a c h e d n o w. ( I n t e r v e n e s ) . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Ye s M r Mx a k w e I g u e s s I a m ju s t s a y i n g t h i n g s a n d you do not know what to say in return. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : N o C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir m a n , w e - w e i n h e r i te d th e m e s s . A n o r g a n i s a t io n t h a t w a s r e a lly in - in f in a n c i a l r u in s b u t o r w h a t s t il l g iv e s m e c o m f o r t is t h a t y o u h a v e a n e x e c u ti v e m a n a g e m e n t t e a m w i t h the r e q u ir e d business acumen, with the r e q u ir e d commercial a s t u t e n e s s , e t h ic a l l e a d e r s h ip , a p a s s i o n t o s e r v e t h e c o u n tr y a n d t h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y th e S A B C d e s p i te t h e l a c k o f fi n a n c i a l i n je c t i o n h a s b e e n a b l e t o b e - to s t a y a f lo a t in th e p a s t c o u p l e o f y e a r s is b e c a u s e o f t h e c o m p e t e n c e t h a t w e h a v e i n th e t e a m . T h e s tr a t e g y t h a t w e h a v e p u t i n p l a c e h a s a lr e a d y b e g u n to 20 s h o w p o s it iv e g r e e n s h o o ts a n d - a n d I c a n a s s u r e y o u C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t if y o u l o o k a t o u r fu n d i n g m o d e l w e - w e a s a n o r g a n i s a t io n i f w e w e r e t o g e t t h e r e q u ir e d f u n d i n g w h ic h b y t h e w a y w e b e li e v e w e h a v e m e t t h e p r e c o n d it i o n s f o r. W e h a v e a t e a m t h a t i s s o l id t h a t c a n b e a b l e t o t u r n a r o u n d t h e S A B C a n d I t h in k t h e b ig g e s t q u e s t io n th a t n e e d s t o b e a s k e d Page 25 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 p o li t ic a l ly a r e w e t h e r i g h t p e o p le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e th a t - t h a t i s p a r t o f t h e is s u e b e c a u s e I w a s a b o u t t o s a y t o y o u i t i s c r it ic a l t o h a v e th e r i g h t m a n a g e m e n t , t h e r i g h t p e o p l e a t m a n a g e m e n t a n d i t is c r i ti c a l t o h a v e t h e r ig h t p e o p le a t b o a r d le v e l b u t t h a t i s n o t t h e e n d . Yo u h a v e g o t t o h a v e th e e x e c u ti v e t h a t i s p r e p a r e d to d o w h a t is r e q u ir e d t o b e d o n e t o g e t t h in g s r i g h t . Yo u h a v e g o t t o h a v e P a r l ia m e n t w h ic h h a s a c o n s ti t u ti o n a l o b li g a ti o n o f o v e r s ig h t t h a t w il l m a k e s u r e t h a t i t e x e r c is e s i ts o v e r s i g h t o b li g a ti o n s p r o p e r ly a n d w e - i n d u e c o u r s e o n e w i ll h a v e t o l o o k a t h a s 10 it o v e r e x e r c is e d th a t o b li g a ti o n p r o p e r l y o v e r t h e p a s t n u m b e r o f y e a r s . If i t d id w h y a r e w e w h e r e w e a r e . W h a t a b o u t t h e p o l i tic a l h e a d s , p o li ti c a l le a d e r s o f t h e s e SOEs over the years. H a v e t h e y d o n e t h e ir j o b p r o p e r ly ? W h e r e d id t h i n g s r e a ll y g o w r o n g ? W h a t d o w e n e e d to d o t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e n e v e r g e t b a c k t o th is s i t u a ti o n a n d w e c a n n o t g e t to t h a t w i t h o u t k n o w i n g w h e r e w e w e n t w r o n g b u t t h a n k - t h a n k y o u Mr M x a k w e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d th e n y o u m e n ti o n t h a t o v e r t h e p a s t 1 0 y e a r s S A B C h a d m a n a g e d to m a k e p r o fi t in t h o s e t h r e e y e a r s t h a t y o u m e n t i o n e d - 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 , 2 0 1 3 a n d 2 0 1 4 b u t th e n 20 t h e v e r y n e x t p a r a g r a p h y o u s a y th o s e - t h a t is m i s l e a d in g . H o w is t h a t m is le a d i n g ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o i f I m a y e x p la i n . In the past 10 y e a r s t h e S A B C h a s n o t b e e n p r o fi t a b l e . T h e o n l y y e a r s is 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 a n d 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 w h e r e th e r e w a s a c e r ta in le v e l o f p r o fi t a b il i ty a n d t h e o n ly r e a s o n th is w a s t h e c a s e i s b e c a u s e th e r e w a s l o w i n v e s t m e n t in Page 26 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 c o n te n t . Yo u w i ll a l s o n o te t h a t i n 2 0 1 6 a n d 2 0 1 7 w h e r e w e r e g is te r e d h u g e l o s s e s th is w a s a t t h e t i m e w h e r e t h e r e w a s th e h ig h i n v e s t m e n t in c o n t e n t . S o - s o t h a t is - th a t i s t h e e x p la n a ti o n f o r th o s e tw o paragraphs. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t , o k a y a n d t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 1 3 y o u d e a l w i th t h e ( i n d is t in c t ) o f c o n t e n t a t 1 . 9 5 b i ll io n . Could you just e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir t h a t w h o le c o n c e p t t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h - y o u d e a l w i t h i t a t le n g th in y o u r s u p p le m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t ? 10 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : R ig h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W e m i g h t ju s t d e a l w i t h i t n o w i n f u l l th e w h o le is s u e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e g o t q u i t e a n u m b e r o f p a r a g r a p h s d e a li n g w it h th a t . Yo u c a n p u t i t h e r e . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o C h a i r p e r s o n l ik e i n a n y o t h e r b u s i n e s s t h e b u s in e s s o f b r o a d c a s ti n g is a b o u t c o n t e n t a n d th e r e i s a n e e d t o i n v e s t in c o n t e n t . F o r u s to a ls o s e e t h e r e tu r n o n in v e s t m e n ts a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s s a y i n g y e s te r d a y y o u n e e d t o i n v e s t b e t w e e n 1 8 t o 2 4 m o n t h s a n d - a n d it is c r i t ic a l b e c a u s e t h e - t h e c o n t e n t d r iv e s a u d ie n c e a n d a u d i e n c e is v e r y li n k e d to g e n e r a t io n o f r e v e n u e . S o i f y o u n o t i n v e s ti n g a s m u c h a s y o u a r e d o i n g w h e n i t 20 c o m e s t o c o n t e n t a s w e a r e n o w w e a r e d o i n g a lo t o f r e p e a t s i n s o m e o f o u r p r o g r a m s a n d w h a t i t d o e s is it a ffe c ts o u r a b il i ty to a t tr a c t r e v e n u e b e c a u s e a d v e r tis e r s a n d c li e n t s t h e n s a y b u t w h y s h o u l d I in v e s t o n a c o n t e n t t h a t i s n o t c o m p e ll in g t h a t is n o t r e l e v a n t t h a t is n o t fr e s h . Page 27 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 S o i n 2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 t h e y e a r w h e r e w e m a d e h u g e l o s s e s w a s t h e y e a r i n w h i c h t h e r e w a s h u g e i n v e s t m e n t i n c o n t e n t a n d 2 0 11 t o 2 0 1 4 t h a t i s t h e y e a r s - t h o s e a r e th e y e a r s th a t w e d i d n o t in v e s t m u c h in c o n te n t a n d i t s h o w e d b e t te r p r o fi t a b il i ty a s a r e s u lt . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u a n d th e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n y e s t e r d a y d id m e n ti o n t h e f ig u r e s th a t y o u d e a l w i th in p a r a g r a p h 1 4 t h a t d e a l w i t h t h e l o s s e s o v e r th e 2 0 1 4 / 2 0 1 5 y e a r s 2 0 1 8 /2 0 1 9 . D o y o u c o n fir m t h a t - th a t p a r a g r a p h ? I t is e x a c t ly - a n d t h e i m p r o v e m e n t o f 3 3 p e r c e n t . H e te s ti fi e d t o a l l o f th a t y e s t e r d a y. 10 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s i n d e e d . I f y o u l o o k a t t h e - th e lo s s e s th a t h a v e b e e n r e g is t e r e d in t h e p a s t t h r e e y e a r s . Yo u - y o u m o v e d - i n th e p a s t t h r e e f is c a l s y o u m o v e d fr o m o v e r a b il li o n s tr a i g h t t o 6 4 4 m il li o n a n d th e p r e v i o u s o n e i s a t 4 8 3 a n d t h a t s t il l a r e n o t d e t e r r e d b u t it d o e s i n d i c a t e a 3 3 p e r c e n t i m p r o v e m e n t i n te r ms o f d r i v i n g d o w n lo s s e s a n d th is is a ls o in l i n e w i t h th e s tr a t e g y t h a t w e h a v e i m p l e m e n te d w h e n i t c o m e s to o r g a n i s a ti o n w id e c u t ti n g m e a s u r e s w h e n i t c o m e s t o c o s t s b u t I a l s o n e e d t o m e n t io n b e c a u s e th e r e h a s b e e n a n a r r a t iv e th a t th e S A B C h a d m o n e y th a t w a s l e f t . I n t h e p a s t th r e e y e a r s i f y o u l o o k a t c a s h b a l a n c e a s a t 20 e v e r y e n d o f e a c h y e a r w e h a d 1 3 0 - 1 3 1 mi ll i o n . S o r r y. We had 82 m il li o n a n d th e n w e h a d 1 3 1 a n d t h e p a s t f is c a l w e h a v e 7 2 m i ll io n . S o t h e s e p a s t t h r e e y e a r s t h a t is w h a t w e h a d a s a t t h e e n d o f t h e f is c a l. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , th a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u - th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d d e a l t w i t h t h e e m p lo y e e c o s ts a n d c u r r e n tl y s i tt i n g a t 4 5 p e r c e n t . I s t h a t … ? Page 28 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . I t is j u s t o v e r 4 5 p e r c e n t a n d I t h i n k t h is is a n o t h e r i s s u e t h a t c o n c e r n s u s a s e x e c u ti v e s b e c a u s e w h e n y o u a r e a s k e d t o t u r n a r o u n d a n i n s t i t u ti o n th e f ir s t t h in g y o u n e e d t o l o o k i n t o i n fa c t th e r e a r e t h r e e th i n g s . Yo u lo o k a t r e v e n u e g e n e r a ti o n . W h a t a d d i ti o n a l i n c o m e c a n y o u e n s u r e y o u b r in g in a s w e l l a s a d d it i o n a l r e v e n u e s tr e a m s ? can you cut costs. T h e s e c o n d p o i n t y o u lo o k a t w h e r e C u r r e n tl y t h e S A B C i s a t o v e r 4 5 p e r c e n t w h e n i t c o m e s t o , to c o s ts . T h e s e c o n d h i g h e s t li n e w h e n i t c o m e s t o c o s ts i s 10 t h e s i g n a l d i s tr i b u t i o n . T h a t a c c o u n ts f o r a b o u t 1 2 p e r c e n t o f o u r t o t a l e x p e n d i tu r e a n d i t is s it t in g j u s t o v e r 1 . 1 b i lli o n . I n d e e d w e n e e d s i g n a l d is tr ib u ti o n b u t t h e is s u e is w it h a ll t h e t e c h n o lo g y t h a t w e h a v e n o w s u r e ly w e c a n d o b e t te r. S o w h e n y o u - w h e n w e w a l k e d i n a s e x e c u t iv e s la s t y e a r t h a t i s w h a t t h e b o a r d s a id t o u s . L o o k a t a w a y w h e r e w e c a n e n s u r e y o u r e s e t b a s ic b u s i n e s s f u n d a m e n t a ls a n d t h a t in c l u d e s l o o k i n g a t a l l o f t h e c o s t i t e ms b u t a ls o lo o k in g a t r e v e n u e g e n e r a ti o n s tr e a m s . T h i s is w h y C h a ir p e r s o n i f I m a y a ls o i n d ic a te in a v e r y d i ff ic u l t fi n a n c ia l y e a r t h e t e a m h a s b e e n 20 a b l e t o d e l iv e r a 6 . 5 b il li o n r e v e n u e d e s p it e a ll o f a d v e r tis e r s w i t h d r a w in g w h e n i t c o m e s to b u d g e ts b e c a u s e in a n y e c o n o m ic r e c e s s i o n th e fir s t th i n g - t h e f ir s t b u d g e t s t h a t g e t c u t w o u ld b e c o m m u n ic a ti o n m a r k e ti n g a n d a d v e r tis i n g b u t d e s p i t e th a t w e h a v e b e e n a b le t o tr y t h is . S o i t is a w o r r y t h a t w e s t ill h a v e e m p l o y c o s ts t h a t a r e a t Page 29 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 o v e r 4 5 p e r c e n t a n d i t is s o m e th i n g t h a t n e e d s t o b e lo o k e d i n to . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d a ls o d e a lt y e s t e r d a y w i t h t h e e x o r b i t a n t s p o r t s r i g h t s c o s t s . e x t e n s iv e ly w i t h t h a t i n y o u r s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t . Yo u a l s o d e a l Could you just e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir a n d t h e n ju s t d e a l w i t h y o u r s u b m is s i o n s to I C A S A t h a t r e la t e t o t h i s m a t t e r a n d I w il l t a k e y o u t h r o u g h s o m e o f t h e le g i s l a ti o n t h a t is r e l e v a n t a s y o u d o s o . T h a n k y o u . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir - C h a ir p e r s o n w e - w e h a v e a v e r y in t e r e s ti n g s i t u a ti o n . O u r m a n d a te e x p e c ts u s to b r o a d c a s t s p o r ts 10 o f n a ti o n a l i n te r e s t a n d t h e b i g g e s t is s u e w i th t h a t is t h a t i t is a n u n f u n d e d m a n d a te . E s s e n ti a l ly i t m e a n s th a t w e n e e d t o c r o s s s u b s i d is e th e m a n d a t e u s i n g t h e c o m m e r c i a l r e v e n u e t h a t w e m a d e e v e r y s i n g le y e a r. To g iv e y o u a s e n s e i n t h e p a s t fiv e y e a r s w e h a v e s p e n t a b o u t 3 .8 b i ll io n o n t h e c o s ts o f s p o r t s r ig h ts a n d t h e p r o b l e m w i t h c o s ts o f s p o r t s r i g h ts is t h a t i t is t h e r i g h ts h o l d e r s t h a t d e c id e o n t h e p r i c e . T h a t is t h e fi r s t p o i n t a n d o f t h e 3 . 8 b i ll io n t h a t w e h a v e s p e n t t h e o n ly r e v e n u e a n d i n c o m e w e h a v e m a d e is 1 5 0 m i lli o n . S o y o u c a n i m a g i n e y o u p u t i n 3 .8 b i ll i o n a n d a l l y o u a r e 20 g e t t in g is a m e r e 1 5 0 m i l li o n a n d t h is is i n li n e w i t h w h a t w e h a v e t h e n d e c i d e d a s p a r t o f o u r s tr a t e g y. A n y d e a l th a t is n o t c o m m e r c i a l ly v ia b le fo r t h e S A B C w e w i ll n e v e r s i g n a n d th is is n o t j u s t is o l a t e d i n terms of what we are doing on sports rights. E v e n w h e n it c o m e s t o p r o d u c t io n t h e p r o d u c ti o n o f o u r c o n te n t o n T V h a s b e e n h u g e l y d is a p p o in t i n g i n th e s e n s e t h a t w e h a v e Page 30 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 h a d t o p a y m i ll i o n s - h u n d r e d s o f m i ll io n s b u t i f y o u l o o k a t th e r e t u r n s o n i n v e s t m e n ts i t d o e s n o t w a r r a n t t h a t . S o th e - t h e d e c i s i o n w e t o o k e v e r y s i n g le c o n tr a c t w e g e t in t o n o t w i t h s t a n d in g o u r c o m m i t m e n t t o t h e p u b lic m a n d a t e . I t h a s t o m a k e s e n s e f o r th e S A B C . S o i t is a s i m il a r t h in g t h a t is h a p p e n in g in s p o r ts . W e - w e h a v e - w e h a v e d e c i d e d t h a t g o in g f o r w a r d a n y d e a l e v e n w h e n i t c o m e s t o s p o r t s r i g h t s c e r t a i n ly w e a r e c o m m i t t e d t o o u r m a n d a t e b u t o u r m a n d a te d o e s n o t s a y t h e S A B C s h o u l d g e t i n to d e a ls th a t a r e n o t c o m m e r c ia lly v i a b l e . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O n e q u e s t io n t a k in g y o u b a c k t o t h e p r e v i o u s q u e s t io n o n t h e e v id e n c e a b o u t s ta ff s a l a r ie s t a k i n g 4 5 p e r c e n t o f y o u r b u d g e t . Is t h e r e a p e r c e n ta g e i n te r ms o f s t a ff s a l a r ie s th a t g e n e r a l ly is a c c e p t e d t o s a y w e ll i f y o u a r e r u n n i n g b u s i n e s s y o u r s t a ff s a l a r i e s should not be above a certain percentage? Is t h e r e a n y th i n g l ik e t h a t a n d i f t h e r e i s h o w d o e s 4 5 p e r c e n t c o m p a r e t o - t o w h a t is a c c e p t e d a s a n o r m ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t - i t d e p e n d s o n - o n s e c t o r s . W h e r e I c o m e fr o m i n t h e p r iv a te s e c to r y o u w o u l d lo o k a t l e a s t a t n o t h i n g m o r e 20 than 25/28 percent. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A n o t h e r v e r y a g g r e s s iv e c o m p a n y m a y s a y it s h o u l d b e l e s s t h a n 2 0 p e r c e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o … Page 31 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o i t w il l r e a ll y d e p e n d o n w h ic h s e c t o r b u t w h e r e w e a r e a s a n o r g a n i s a t io n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t is - I m e a n j u s t t o g i v e y o u a s e n s e o f t h e 6 . 5 b i lli o n in r e v e n u e y e a r - la s t f is c a l . I t m e a n s t h a t w e a r e g o in g t o h a v e t o p a y j u s t o v e r t h r e e b il li o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : To w a r d s s a la r i e s … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A n d th a t is n o t s u s t a i n a b l e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A n d I th in k t o C h a i r ’s p o i n t t h i s is o n e o f t h e t o u g h d e c is i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th a t I t h i n k w e n e e d t o l o o k i n t o . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s a n d t h e n w it h r e g a r d t o t h e q u e s ti o n o f s p o r ts r i g h ts a n d s o o n . Yo u m u s t h a v e lo o k e d a t w h a t o t h e r p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r s a n d o t h e r n a t io n s d o . 20 D o t h e y f i n d t h e ms e lv e s in t h i s s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e s t a k e h o l d e r s b a s i c a lly t e l l y o u w h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e t o p a y t h e m f o r th e s p o r t s r i g h ts ? Is t h e r e a n y - I a m s u r e th e r e is a c o m p a r is o n t h a t h a s b e e n d o n e s o m e w h e r e b u t y o u m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t b e a b le t o s p e a k t o i t . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W h a t w e h a v e s a id C h a ir p e r s o n i s t h a t f o r y e a r s S A B C h a s b e e n p a y i n g f o r a p r o p e r ty t h a t i t d o e s n o t e v e n Page 32 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 k n o w i ts v a lu e . As t h e S A B C o u r s t a n c e h a s b e e n v e r y c l e a r. W h e n e v e r w e e n g a g e w i t h o u r p a r tn e r s w h e n it c o m e s to t h e s e c o m m e r c ia l d e a l s l e t u s fi r s t d o a p r o p e r v a l u a t i o n o f t h e p r o p e r ty. S o t h a t w e c a n l o o k a t p r ic in g . W e c a n lo o k a t c o m m e r c i a l v ia b il it y a n d a s w e ll a s h o w w e a r e g o i n g t o b e a b l e t o s e ll t h is b e c a u s e f o r e v e r y s in g le c o n t e n t t h a t w e g e t . I t is i m p o r ta n t t h a t w e h a v e a s a l e s p i p e l in e f o r th e n e x t n in e m o n t h s to s a y w e n e e d t o a p p r o a c h o u r c li e n t s a n d t h i s i s th e f o c u s t h a t w e n e e d t o d o g o i n g fo r w a r d . S o i t i s d i ff e r e n t in o th e r p l a c e s . I t h i n k w e h a v e a ll o w e d a s it u a ti o n w h e r e w e e n g a g e i n d e a ls 10 t h a t d o n o t m a k e a n y c o m m e r c i a l s e n s e f o r th e S A B C . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y b e - a n d t h e n i n t h e s a m e p a r a g r a p h y o u d e a l w it h n a t io n a l s p o r ti n g e v e n ts o f p u b li c in t e r e s t a n d y o u m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o G o v e r n m e n t G a z e t t e N o . 7 o f 2 0 1 0 . C h a ir, m a y I r e f e r t h e w i t n e s s t o E X H I B I T 2 6 w h ic h is t h e le g i s l a ti o n bundle. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y to - t o … 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: EXHIBIT CC26. CHAIRPERSON: EXHIBIT CC … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 26. C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 6 , o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , th a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n i t w il l b e u n d e r d iv id e r m a r k e d 2 . H a v e y o u f o u n d i t M r M x a k w e ? Page 33 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I h a v e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u . Th is is t h e S p o r t B r o a d c a s ti n g S e r v ic e s R e g u l a ti o n o f 2 0 1 0 … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d I w o u ld l ik e t o t a k e y o u t o p a g e 4 0 m a r k e d o n th e r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r in r e d a n d I w a s lo o k i n g a t t h e l is t o f a l l t h e s e s p o r ts th a t a r e r e g a r d i n g a s s p o r ts o f n a t io n a l in t e r e s t a n d I d o n o t s e e n e t b a ll t h e r e o r a m I m is s in g s o m e t h i n g ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : J a , it is n o t th e r e . I d o n o t k n o w. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is n o t t h e r e . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B e c a u s e w e h a v e i t … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o i t i s r e a ll y n o t r e g a r d e d a s a m a t te r o f p u b lic in t e r e s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : G e n d e r d is c r i m i n a t io n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: G e n d e r - s e r i o u s g e n d e r d i s c r i m in a ti o n C h a ir a n d a t t h e e n d o f t h e C o m m is s i o n w e w i ll m a k e s u b m is s i o n s o n that. Thank you. S o t h e s e - th e s e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u h a v e - t h a t a r e lis t e d h e r e t h e s e a r e t h e m a t t e r s th a t y o u r e fe r r e d to in t h a t p a r a g r a p h ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d - a n d w h a t is e x p e c te d o f y o u a s t h e S A B C i n s o f a r a s t h e s e e v e n ts a r e c o n c e r n e d ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : T h e r e is a n e x p e c t a ti o n f o r u s t o b r o a d c a s t s p o r ts o f n a t i o n a l i n te r e s t . T h e b ig g e s t is s u e w i t h th is C h a ir p e r s o n i s t h a t m u c h a s t h e r e is a n e x p e c t a t i o n i n l a w t h e b i g g e s t is s u e is w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e f i n a n c i a l i m p e r a tiv e . Page 34 of 150 I w ill g i v e y o u a 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 s e n s e . W e d i d a p r o je c t i o n . I n t h e n e x t th r e e y e a r s t h e p u b lic m a n d a t e - u n f u n d e d p u b li c m a n d a t e is g o i n g t o c o s t S A B C 6 .8 b il l io n . S o e s s e n ti a l ly w e a r e e x p e c te d t o b r o a d c a s t a l l o f t h is w i t h o u t a n y f in a n c ia l s u p p o r t . T h a t is o n e b u t t h e s e c o n d p o in t is th a t w e - w e a ls o g e t t o a s ta g e w h e r e w e a s k o u r s e l v e s t h e s e u n fu n d e d m a n d a t e s i f th e y a r e s o c r i t ic a l w h y is i t t h e n th a t th e r e is n o p o r ti o n o f f u n d i n g a ll o c a t e d in o r d e r t o h e lp u s . I h a v e s a i d e a r li e r o n C h a ir p e r s o n w e a r e fu ll y c o m m i t t e d t o f u l fi ll in g o u r m a n d a t e b u t th e r e n e e d s t o b e a r e a s o n a b l e e x p e c ta t io n o f 10 what can be done. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: N o w t h e e x p e c t a ti o n y o u t a l k a b o u t is it th e e x p e c ta t io n fr o m th e n a ti o n a l e x e c u ti v e . Is it - are you talking about t h e e x p e c ta t io n fr o m th e p u b lic o r i t is b o t h ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t is - i t is a c t u a l ly - t h e r e g u l a ti o n s s t ip u l a t e t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is i n th e r e g u la t io n s ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. A c t u a lly I g u e s s if i t i s i n th e r e g u l a ti o n s 20 it p r o b a b l y is m o r e t h a n a n e x p e c ta t io n . I s i t n o t a n o b l ig a ti o n ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B u t it a l s o … CHAIRPERSON: I d o n o t k n o w. I h a v e n o t l o o k e d a t th e a c tu a l wording. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . I n d e e d i t is - i t is a n o b l i g a t io n Page 35 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B u t a l s o s a y s fr e e - t o - a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t s a y s fr e e - t o - a i r a n d y o u m u s t a l s o a p p r e c ia t e C h a i r p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th e S A B C is n o t th e o n ly fr e e - t o - a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : And th e r e g u la t io n s do not even s p e c i f ic a l ly m e n ti o n t h e S A B C . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 1 8 y o u d e a l w i t h - y o u h a v e m e n t io n e d s i g n a l a n d l in k a g e s … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o r r y. W h e r e a r e w e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e b a c k t o t h e … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. Ye s . I a m b a c k t o - t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . T h e b i g fi le , o k a y. E X H I B I T 20 5. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . I a m t h e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Oh, so paragraph 18. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h e n y o u d e a l t h e r e w i t h li n k a g e s a n d - a n d t h o s e s i g n a l c o s ts - b r o a d c a s t c o s ts b u t t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g th a t I Page 36 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 w o u ld li k e t o j u s t t a l k t o y o u a b o u t w h ic h o n e o f th e w i t n e s s e s is g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h w h o d e a l t w i t h t h e T N A A g r e e m e n t . I s e e y o u m e n ti o n in that paragraph that: “There are other ad hoc costs incurred by the c o r p o r a t io n s u c h a s s a t e l li t e f e e d s a n d t e l e p h o n e li n e s u s e d d u r in g o u t s i d e b r o a d c a s t s . ” M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I think - correct me if I am wrong. A ty p i c a l e x a m p l e w o u l d b e t h e - t h e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s t h a t S A B C w a s 10 h o s ti n g b e c a u s e o n e w i tn e s s s a y s w e l l T N A w a s n o t g o i n g t o c h a r g e t h e S A B C a n y t h i n g f o r d o i n g t h a t b u t th e S A B C h a d t o f o l lo w w i th a l l o f i ts e q u ip m e n t , i ts s t a ff w h e r e v e r th e r e i s g o i n g t o b e a l iv e b r o a d c a s t. S o c a n y o u j u s t e x p l a i n to C h a ir h o w t h e n t h e s e c o s ts c o m e a b o u t b e c a u s e th e n th e y w o u l d p r e p a r e u s f o r th e - f o r t h a t w i t n e s s t h a t is g o i n g to d o d e a l w i t h t h e T N A m a tt e r s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K E : O k a y. S o a s - a s I h a d s a id e a r li e r o n C h a ir p e r s o n t h e s e c o n d b u s i n e s s - t h e s e c o n d b ig g e s t c o s t li n e i t e m in o u r P N L i s th e s ig n a l d is tr i b u ti o n . A s y o u m a y k n o w w e o p e r a te 1 9 r a d i o s ta t io n s . A t a n y g iv e n w e e k w e r e a c h c l o s e to 2 8 m i ll io n p e o p l e 20 a n d t h e n a l s o w e h a v e T V s t a ti o n s w h e r e v e r s in g le m o n t h w e r e a c h c lo s e t o 2 9 m il li o n p e o p l e . N o w I t h i n k it b e t t e r e x p l a i n s w h y t h e S A B C is s u c h a c o n te s t e d te r r a i n . T h e - t h e is s u e w i t h t h e s ig n a l - w it h s i g n a l d is t r i b u t io n is th a t w e h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o e n s u r e th a t i n e v e r y s in g le p l a c e w h e r e w e a r e t h e tr a n s m is s i o n o f o u r s i g n a l t o t h e p u b li c Page 37 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 is d o n e a n d t h is is c o s t i n g u s a b o u t 1 . 1 b il li o n e v e r y s i n g l e y e a r - e v e r y s in g le m o n t h - I m e a n e v e r y s in g le y e a r a n d is th e s e c o n d b u s i n e s s b i g g e s t c o n tr ib u t o r i n t e r m s o f o u r - a n d S E N T E C H i s o b v i o u s ly o u r s ig n a l d is tr ib u ti o n p a r tn e r t h a t w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o p a y in th e p a s t c o u p l e o f s ix m o n t h s p u r e ly b e c a u s e o f t h e s it u a ti o n t h a t w e a r e in . The - the issue that you are b r o a d c a s ts - I w i ll m a k e a n e x a m p le . mentioning on o u ts i d e I f t h e r e is a G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t w h a t h a s p a r ti c u la r p r o je c t th a t th e y w a n t t o r u n i n s o m e f a r fl u n g r u r a l a r e a . W h a t w e w o u ld n o r m a ll y d o i s w e w o u l d a c t u a ll y s e n d 10 o n e o f o u r tr u c k s t o t h a t p la c e . S o a ll o f t h o s e o u t s i d e b r o a d c a s ts a s w e l l a s s a t e l li t e f e e d s t h a t i s b a s ic a l ly w h a t - w h a t i t is r e f e r r in g t o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. S o y o u w o u l d i n c u r t h o s e c o s t s ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o e v e n i f a n e n t i ty c o m e s to t h e S A B C a n d s a y s I a m o ff e r i n g t h i s s e r v i c e . I a m n o t g o in g to c h a r g e y o u f o r i t b u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e s e c o s ts t h e n i t b e c o m e s q u i t e e x p e n s iv e f o r i t to run (intervenes). M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W e - w e c h a r g e t h o s e e n ti ti e s . W h e n 20 w h e n a n y G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t o r a n y o r g a n is a t i o n a p p r o a c h e s u s f o r a p a r t ic u l a r e v e n t . W e d o c h a r g e b u t t h e b i g g e s t is s u e is t h a t f r o m a d is tr ib u ti o n p o in t o f v ie w t h e - t h e o u ts i d e b r o a d c a s ts a r e q u i te e x p e n s iv e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u - y o u g iv e u s t h e fi g u r e s - t h e p e r c e n t a g e s o n - o n s i g n a l - s i g n a l d is tr i b u t io n Page 38 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a n d y o u a ls o - a r e y o u b e n c h m a r k in g i t w i t h t h e i n te r n a ti o n a l o n e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : In terms of th e cost of signal d is t r i b u t io n i n t e r n a t io n a l ly i t is a t s e v e n p e r c e n t a n d w e a r e a t 1 2 p e r c e n t a s th e S A B C a n d i t is o n e o f th e t h i n g s t h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g in t o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I - I a m s o r r y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: H a v e y o u b e e n a b le to e s t a b l is h th e r e a s o n f o r t h e d is c r e p a n c y o r n o t y e t ? W h y … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W e … CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e a t 1 2 w h e r e a s t h e i n t e r n a ti o n a l a v e r a g e is s e v e n p e r c e n t? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W e - w e - t h e r e - fr o m a p o l ic y p o i n t o f v ie w … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : 20 C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e is a n e e d f o r t h e S A B C t o h a v e a m ix o f b o th D T T … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A s w e ll a s D T H … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A n d w e b e l ie v e th a t i f w e c a n h a v e t h a t h e a lt h y m i x … Page 39 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W e w o u l d b e a b le t o d e a l w i t h s o m e o f t h e c o s t s t h a t a r e q u it e h i g h … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : F r o m a s i g n a l d is tr ib u ti o n p o in t o f v i e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . In p a r a g r a p h 1 9 y o u d e a l w i t h s o m e o f t h e c o m m e r c i a l d e a l s w h ic h y o u b e li e v e t h a t t h e y w e r e u n s o u n d - fi n a n c i a l ly u n s o u n d . C a n y o u ju s t d e a l w i t h t h a t a n d w h y y o u 10 t h i n k th a t th o s e d e a l s a r e n o t g o o d fo r t h e S A B C ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W e ll a l l o f t h o s e d e a ls o n p a r a g r a p h 1 9 t h e y h a v e b e e n i n v e s ti g a t e d b y t h e - b y t h e S I U . T h e b ig g e s t is s u e t h e r e w a s t h a t t h e r e - t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f m a l a d m i n is tr a t i o n w h e n i t c a m e t o t h e s e d e a ls . E i th e r th e r e w a s n o c o n tr a c t i n p l a c e a n d t h e r e w e r e n o t p a y m e n ts m a d e o r t h e r e w a s a n is s u e o f d e v ia t io n s th a t w a s d e li b e r a t e t o a c c o m m o d a te c e r t a in o f th e s e a n d it w a s ju s t r e a lly t h e ty p i c a l m a l f e a s a n c e . I t is - i t is a n i n d ic a ti o n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th e S A B C in th e p a s t. A ll o f t h o s e d e a ls t h a t a r e s h o w n t h e r e . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d t h e n y o u t a b u l a t e th e m i n A n n e x u r e B t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t. C h a ir, m a y I r e fe r t h e C h a ir to p a g e 1 8 . Yo u r A n n e x u r e B a n d a t p a g e 2 1 y o u h a v e a c t u a ll y li s t e d t h o s e companies. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : 1 8 . W h e r e i s i t? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 2 0 - i f y o u g o t o 2 1 . T h a t is w h e r e - 1 8 Page 40 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t h a t i s w h e r e y o u r a n n e x u r e s t a r ts b u t … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : O h y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I w o u l d l ik e t o r e f e r y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 2 0 to page 21. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o y o u s a y t h e s e m a t te r s h a v e b e e n r e fe r r e d t o t h e r e l e v a n t p r o s e c u t i n g a u t h o r it ie s ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h e r e - y o u h a v e 10 lis t e d t h e m . N a m e s o f th e D ir e c t o r s … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d v a r io u s c o m p a n i e s l is te d i n t h e r e a n d you have … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Yo u h a v e t a b u l a t e d e v e n th o s e t h a t y o u r e fe r r e d f o r d is c i p li n a r ie s a t p a g e 2 3 . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. I s e e t h o s e t h a t h a v e b e e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e s o m a n y. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e r e a r e s o m a n y, y e s . I s e e t h o s e t h a t h a v e b e e n r e fe r r e d f o r p r o s e c u t io n s . Yo u a r e l o o k i n g a t a b o u t th r e e fi v e . T h e r e a r e i n d iv i d u a l s a n d … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d c o m p a n i e s th e r e a n d th e n th o s e th a t h a v e b e e n r e fe r r e d f o r d is c i p l in a r ie s y o u h a v e a l o t o f t h o s e . T h e y g o Page 41 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 r ig h t u p t o p a g e - u p t o p a g e 2 4 . I a m s o r r y. It e m 2 4 , p a g e 2 6 . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th a t - th a t is c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : All of those you - you w il l s e e c h a ir p e r s o n f o r e v e r y d e a l t h a t w a s c o r r u p t t h e r e is a c o r r e s p o n d i n g in d i v i d u a l . S o a l l o f t h e s e i n d iv id u a ls t h a t a r e m e n ti o n e d th e r e th o s e a r e S A B C e m p l o y e e s . M o s t o f th e m t h e y a r e n o l o n g e r i n th e e m p lo y o f 10 the SABC. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . S o r r y. T h e - th e C h a ir h a d a s k e d y o u a q u e s ti o n a b o u t s a l a r y r a n g e a n d b e n c h m a r k i n g o f s a l a r i e s . C a n I ju s t ta k e y o u b a c k t o - o n t h a t p o i n t ? P a g e s e v e n - p a g e 1 7 w h ic h is t h e e s ti m a t e d e m p l o y e e c o m p e n s a ti o n . Ar e y o u t h e r e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I a m th e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A l th o u g h i t d o e s n o t r e fl e c t i n d iv id u a l s a l a r i e s b u t h o w d o e s o n e a s s e s s t h o s e - t h o s e fi g u r e s ? W h e n y o u s a y D ir e c t o r s a n d G E s a r e t h o s e t h e i r a n n u a l o r g r o s s s a l a r i e s ? H o w d o e s o n e l o o k a t t h o s e f ig u r e s ? 20 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : My u n d e r s ta n d i n g of the C h a i r ’s q u e s t io n w a s w e s a i d t h a t t h e p e r c e n t a g e o f t h e S A B C v is - à - v is e x p e n d i t u r e o n e m p l o y e e c o m p e n s a ti o n … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Is over 45 percent. So my u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s h o w d o e s i t c o m p a r e to o th e r o r g a n is a ti o n s th a t a r e Page 42 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 in a g o o d f in a n c i a l h e a l t h . S o … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh you quite correct. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o t h is o n e i t b a s ic a lly s h o w s i n t e r n a ll y t h e d i ff e r e n t le v e ls a n d h o w m u c h e a c h o f t h o s e c o s t s t h e c o m p a n y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n t h e B a r g a in i n g U n i t w i ll t h a t be your Labour Department? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : 10 S o - s o t h e D ir e c t o r s a n d t h e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e s i t w o u ld in c l u d e t h e n o n - e x e c u ti v e s t h e f e e s p a id t o t h e board. I t w o u ld a l s o in c l u d e t h e t h r e e E x e c u ti v e D i r e c t o r s a s w e l l a s G r o u p E x e c u t iv e s t h a t a r e m e m b e r s o f E x c o . S o t h a t i s t h e to t a l c o s t t o c o m p a n y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W h a t y o u s e e t h e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: What does it mean? T h e i te m n o n - g u a r a n te e d f o r p e r m a n e n t . W h a t d o e s th a t m e a n ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o r r y w h e r e is t h a t ? ADV THANDI NORMAN 20 compensation fo r SC: permanent I t is ju s t - p o s it i o n s ju s t and b e lo w then you guaranteed have got non-guaranteed for n o n - g u a r a n t e e d fo r p e r m a n e n t . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : permanent. Oh. Non - Th a t - th a t e ffe c tiv e ly m e a n s o n e o f t h e t h in g s w e a r e d o i n g C h a ir p e r s o n if I m a y e x p l a in . W e a r e r u n n i n g a n o r g a n is a ti o n w h e r e y o u h a v e a b o u t 3 0 0 M a n a g e r s a c t in g i n d i ffe r e n t p o s i ti o n s . Page 43 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : A c ti n g ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . W e - w e h a v e a b o u t 3 0 0 … CHAIRPERSON: 300? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . We have reduced that number s ig n if ic a n tly. W e a r e n o w s t a n d in g a t 2 2 7 b u t i t d o e s g iv e y o u a s e n s e o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n y o u r u n n in g b e c a u s e if y o u h a v e A c t i n g M a n a g e r s a n d t h e y n e e d t o d o - w e d o i t fo r a t h r e e m o n th p e r io d . Yo u a ls o h a v e p e o p l e w h o h a v e b e e n a c ti n g f o r c l o s e to s e v e n / e i g h t s o m e t i m e s n i n e y e a r s a t t h e S A B C a n d i t m a k e s d e c i s i o n m a k i n g d i ffi c u l t. T h e s e n s e o f 10 t a k i n g r e s p o n s i b il i ty. S o t o y o u r q u e s ti o n t h e 2 8 0 w o u l d th e n r e fe r t o t h e a m o u n t, f o r e x a m p l e , th a t w e n e e d t o p a y f o r a c t in g p o s i t io n s . I t ’s c o s t in g u s c u r r e n t a b o u t R 2 m i ll i o n e v e r y s in g le m o n t h f o r a l l o f t h e p e o p l e th a t a r e a c ti n g i n th o s e m a n a g e r i a l p o s i ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t in t e r m s o f a c ti n g a ll o w a n c e s ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : CHAIRPERSON: Correct. Okay ja because otherwise if you were not paying a c ti n g a ll o w a n c e s a n d w h e r e , f o r e x a m p le , j u s t p a y in g th e m w h a t a p e r m a n e n t i n c u m b e n t i n t h a t p o s i ti o n w o u l d b e g e t ti n g , t h e n i t w o u l d n ’ t m a k e m u c h d i ff e r e n c e ja . 20 Okay but of course maybe an acting a l lo w a n c e w il l m e a n t h a t, t h a t e m p l o y e e s o r t h a t m a n a g e r s n o r m a l s a l a r y in h i s o r h e r o r i g i n a l p o s i ti o n p l u s t h e a c t in g a ll o w a n c e s ti ll k e e p s th e m l o w e r th a n t h e r a t e a t w h ic h a p e r m a n e n t in c u m b e n t w o u ld h a v e b e e n p a id . S o fr o m t h a t p o in t o f v i e w i t ’s b e t t e r th a t w a y M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B u t t h e i s s u e , C h a ir p e r s o n is w h e n i t c o m e s t o s t a b i li ty b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e th in g s w e w a n te d t o d o is to Page 44 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 s t a b il is e t h e S A B C a n d i t d o e s n o t g iv e r o o m t o d o t h a t p a r ti c u l a r l y i f you have so many – I mean permanent we have about 3 000 permanent e m p l o y e e s a n d i f y o u h a v e c l o s e t o 3 0 0 o f th o s e a c t i n g it d o e s c r e a t e a lo t o f in s ta b i li t y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Fr o m a d e c is i o n m a k i n g p o i n t o f v ie w o r [i n d i s t i n c t ] e x e c u t io n a n d a ll o f t h e t h in g w e s h o u l d b e d o in g t o t a k e t h e o r g a n is a t i o n f o r w a r d . CHAIRPERSON: 10 N o , n o i t ’s u n a c c e p t a b l e th a t ’s a b o u t w h a t, 1 0 % o f e m p l o y e e s a n d g u e s s i f y o u l o o k a t th e m a n a g e m e n t i t ’s m u c h m o r e – it ’s a h i g h e r p e r c e n t a g e o f m a n a g e m e n t w h o a r e i n a c t in g p o s i ti o n s , correct? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o I ’ m s u r e t h e n g iv e n y o u r h i g h w a g e b i ll c o s t i t ’s d i ffi c u l t t o fi ll t h o s e p o s i t io n s a n d t h e s it u a ti o n y o u fi n d y o u r s e l v e s i n n o t h a v i n g m o n e y. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : CHAIRPERSON: Correct. But – well I’m not sure whether one can say fi n a n c i a l c h a ll e n g e s a r e a j u s ti f ic a t i o n o r a n e x c u s e f o r n o t fi lli n g t h o s e p o s i ti o n s w h e n y o u a r e p a y i n g a c ti n g a l lo w a n c e s . I n o t h e r w o r d s , is n ’t 20 t h e p r o b l e m s o m e b o d y f a il in g t o m a k e a ju d g m e n t c a l l t o s a y, is i t s u s t a i n a b l e t o h a v e s o m e b o d y o r s o m a n y m a n a g e r s a c t i n g f o r a y e a r, t w o y e a r s , y o u h a v e m e n t io n e d s o m e i n s t a n c e s o f s e v e n y e a r s , n i n e y e a r s , I m e a n y o u c a n ’ t b e s a y i n g , w e l l w e c a n ’ t f il l th is p o s i t io n b e c a u s e th e r e is n o m o n e y a n d y e t y o u a r e p a y in g a l o t o f m o n e y o v e r a long period? Page 45 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I n d e e d C h a ir p e r s o n , t h i s I a n is s u e t h a t w e ’r e d e a li n g w i th . I n th e p a s t c o u p l e o f m o n t h s , w e ’v e b e e n a b le t o a d v e r t is e c r i t ic a l v a c a n c i e s p a r t ic u l a r l y t h o s e th a t w e k n o w a r e q u i t e k e y t o t h e r u n n i n g o f th e b u s i n e s s , w h e t h e r y o u ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e n e e d t o g e t h i g h ly s k il le d p e o p le w i t h i n t h e s a l e s d i v i s i o n . W e ’v e h a d a lo t o f r a d i o s ta t io n m a n a g e r s t h a t w e r e a c ti n g a n d w e n o w h a v e a d v e r t is e d t h o s e p o s i ti o n s i n o r d e r to b r in g th e r ig h t c a l ib r e o f t a l e n t. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 T h a n k y o u C h a ir, s h a ll w e m o v e o n , C h a ir I ’ m a d v i s e d t h a t i t ’s fi v e p a s t e l e v e n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: We can go up to quarter past ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Then in paragraph 20 this a m a t t e r th a t d e a ls w i t h th e in fr a s tr u c t u r e a n d th e b u il d in g s – p a r a g a p h 2 0 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t , b a c k to y o u r s t a te m e n t p l e a s e t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: I t ’s d iv i d e r 1 5 . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : CHAIRPERSON: J a p a g e fo u r. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 O h th a n k y o u , s o r r y C h a ir. Got it. Thank you and then there you deal with t h e m a i n t e n a n c e o f y o u r v a r i o u s b u i ld in g , t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d d i d i n d ic a t e y e s te r d a y, m e n ti o n e d t h e o il s p i ll s a n d t h e p r o b l e m s t h a t y o u ’r e h a v i n g i n th a t r e g a r d . S o w h a t w o u l d y o u l ik e t o h ig h l i g h t i n w h a t y o u ’r e s a y in g i n th a t p a r a g r a p h , b r i e fl y ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t h in k , C h a ir p e r s o n , th is o n e is v e r y c lo s e to m y h e a r t b e c a u s e it a ffe c t s t h e s a f e t y a n d t h e h e a l th o f th e Page 46 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 employee at the SABC. T h e tr u th o f t h e m a t te r, w e a r e n o t a b l e to in v e s t i n th e u p g r a d i n g m a in t e n a n c e a n d r e f u r b is h m e n t o f m o r e in fr a s tr u c t u r e . J u s t a c o u p l e o f m o n th s a g o w e h a d a h u g e c o n c r e t e s t e e l i n o n e o f o u r r e c e p ti o n a r e a s th a t j u s t f e ll a n d e n d a n g e r i n g t h e liv e s o f m o r e e m p lo y e e s . Yo u m a y h a v e s e e n th e d ie s e l s p il la g e , lo ts a n d lo ts o f o u r e m p l o y e e s w e r e h o s p i ta li s e d d i e s e l fu m e s . d u e to d ie s e l – i n h a li n g R e c e n tl y w e h a d a f ir e in c i d e n t , y o u m u s t a ls o a p p r e c ia t e t h e s e a r e o ld b u il d i n g s , i f y o u l o o k a t o u r li f ts , y o u k n o w, w e s h o u l d h a v e u p g r a d e d o r c h a n g e d th e m 1 5 y e a r s a g o a n d w e ’r e s ti ll 10 u s i n g t h e m a n d t h i s p o s e s a h u g e r is k , n o t o n l y t o t h e e m p l o y e e s b u t t o t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . Yo u c a n i m a g i n e w h a t i t d o e s fr o m a s t a ff m o r a le p o i n t o f v i e w, if y o u w a k e u p i n th e m o r n i n g y o u g o to a n o r g a n is a ti o n w h e r e y o u r s a f e ty a n d h e a lt h y is n o t g u a r a n t e e d a n d I t h in k a s t h e a c c o u n t in g o ffic e r, i t ’s s o m e t h i n g th a t I d o n o t s l e e p w e l l a t n i g h t t h i n k i n g w h a t m a y h a p p e n a n d I ’ m a ls o n o t t a lk i n g j u s t a b o u t A u c k l a n d P a r k i t’s t h e s a m e if y o u g o t o o u r b u il d i n g s i n K Z N t h e r e ’s b e e n a h is t o r ic a l l e g a c y w h e r e a l l o f th e s e b u il d i n g s w e r e n o t m a in t a i n e d a n d u n f o r t u n a t e ly o n e o f t h e th i n g s w e h a d d o n e f o r t h e fu n d i n g t h a t w e h a d a p p li e d f o r, w e h a d e a r m a r k e d a c e r t a i n p o r t i o n o f t h a t m o n e y t o t h e 20 m a in t e n a n c e o f o u r b u il d i n g a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y. I f y o u g o to L i m p o p o , it ’s t h e s a m e t h i n g , if y o u g o to Fr e e S t a t e o u r b u il d in g s h a v e n o t b e e n m a in t a i n e d f o r m a n y, m a n y y e a r s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A lr ig h t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 w e h i g h li g h t s o m e o f t h e S A B C g r o u p e x e c u t iv e m e m b e r s w e r e h ig h l i g h t e d i n – o r i m p l ic a t e d r a th e r i n w r o n g d o i n g a n d t h e ir n a m e s w il l a p p e a r i n Page 47 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 A n n e x u r e B t h a t y o u ’v e j u s t – I ’v e j u s t t a k e n y o u t o w h e r e t h e S I U h a d lis t e d t h o s e n a m e s a n d c o m p a n ie s , s o a r e t h o s e – w h a t I’ d l ik e to k n o w a r e t h o s e e x e c u t iv e m e m b e r s s ti ll s e r v i n g w i t h i n th e S A B C ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I s t a r t e d t h is j o b o n t h e 1 s t , I t h i n k t h e B o a r d d i d n o t d is c lo s e th is t h a t a l m o s t h a l f o f m y E x c o m e m b e r s w e r e i m p l ic a te d i n w r o n g d o i n g a n d th e y w e r e s u b j e c t o S I U c a s e s . S o m e o f t h e m w e r e i m p li c a t e d in t h e w r o n g d o in g w i t h i n t h e S A B C , a n d I t h i n k fr o m t h e a b il i ty o f a l e a d e r to le a d , y o u n e e d t o h a v e a c e r t a i n m o r a l a u t h o r i ty a n d I t h i n k i t w a s a b i g is s u e b e c a u s e y o u 10 le a d a n o r g a n is a ti o n th a t y o u w a n t t o s t a b i lis e , s tr e n g t h e n i n g i n te r n a l c o n tr o ls b u t t h e v e r y p e o p l e t h a t y o u w a n t t o d o t h is w i th a r e a c t u a ll y i m p l ic a t e d . S o w e h a v e h a d t o g o th r o u g h a v e r y v i g o r o u s p r o c e s s w h e n i t c o m e s t o d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g s w i t h th e in d i v i d u a ls c o n c e r n e d . S o m e o f t h e m l e f t t h e o r g a n is a ti o n in s t e a d o f g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e d is c i p l i n a r y process, some of th e m are s t ill going th r o u g h the d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s e s a n d a s I ’v e s a id e a r li e r o n , in a l l o f t h e s e m a t t e r s w e w e r e g u i d e d b y th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s fr o m th e S I U , f r o m t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r a n d I d o k n o w t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a n a r r a ti v e t h a t w e a r e p u r g in g p e o p l e , a n d h e tr u t h o f t h e m a t te r i s th a t i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r 20 w h o y o u a r e e v e n i f y o u a r e p a r t o f E x c o i f th e r e is a n y w r o n g d o i n g t h a t h a s b e e n i d e n t i fi e d i s t h e r ig h t t h i n g f o r t h e S A B C t o a c t . S o s o m e o f t h e m a r e s ti ll w it h u s , th e y ’v e g o n e t h r o u g h th e p r o p e r p r o c e s s e s a n d s o m e o f th e m a r e o n s u s p e n s i o n a n d s o m e o f th e m h a v e l e f t th e o r g a n i s a t io n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u , y o u h a v e d e a lt w i t h t h e Page 48 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 m o r a le g e n e r a l ly o f t h e e m p lo y e e s a n d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 2 a n d 2 3 y o u d e a l w i t h th e lo w le v e l e m p l o y e e s h a v in g w i t n e s s e d o r e v e n b e e n a w a r e o f s o m e o f t h e c o r r u p t d e a ls t h a t t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e r s w e r e i n v o l v e d i n . S o t h e n , o t h e r t h a n th e m o r a l e t h a t l o o k , t h e y ’ r e w o r r i e d th a t t h e y ’ r e n o t g o i n g t o g e t p a i d , p o s s ib ly a t t h e e n d o f t h e m o n t h , w h a t o th e r is s u e s r e la t e t o th e m a t te r s t h a t y o u h ig h l ig h t i n p a r a g r a p h s 2 2 a n d 2 3 in s o f a r a s l e a d e r s h ip a n d m a n a g e m e n t c o n c e r n e d ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t h i n k t h e b i g g e s t is s u e is t h e e l e m e n t o f tr u s t , t h e r e ’s b e e n a h u g e is s u e a r o u n d tr u s t a n d w h a t w e ’v e 10 d o n e w i th th e d i ff e r e n t Ex c o m e m b e r s is t o , e v e r y w e e k , d e d ic a t e ti m e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e h a v e t h e s e c r o s s - f u n c ti o n a l t e a m s in t h e o r g a n i s a t io n t h a t w e c a n m e e t a n d e n g a g e a n d t a lk t o b u t a ls o t o lis t e n t o t h e ir c o n c e r n s . P e o p le , o f e x a m p l e a r e c o n c e r n e d h o w a l o t o f p e o p l e w e r e p r o m o te d w i t h o u t a n y b a s is fr o m a m e r i t p o i n t o f v ie w w i t h o u t t h e r e q u ir e d c o m p e te n c y, w i th o u t t h e r e q u ir e d s k il ls a n d i t d o e s c r e a te a c e r t a i n i s s u e w h e n i t c o m e s t o tr u s t w h e n i t c o m e s to p u r s u i n g c a r e e r s w it h in t h e S A B C f r o m t h a t p o i n t o f v i e w. I n f a c t , i t’s o n e o f t h e reason why we have had to take a c t io n against the ir r e g u l a r a p p o i n t m e n ts b e c a u s e a lo t o f p e o p le t h a t a r e q u a li fi e d a n d c o m p e t e n t 20 w i t h i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . T h e y l o o k e d a t t h e s e c o l l e a g u e s w h o a r e a c t u a ll y o c c u p y in g h ig h e r l e v e l p o s i ti o n s a n d y e t t h e y ’r e a ls o t h e r e w i t h t h e ir o w n s k i ll s e t a s w e ll a s t h e ir o w n q u a li fi c a t io n s b u t th e y w e r e o v e r l o o k e d i n t h e p a s t . S o w e ’r e tr y in g t o n o r m a l is e t h e e n v ir o n m e n t t o s t a b il is e it a n d to e n s u r e th a t w e i n s ti l a s e n s e o f b e l o n g in g t o th e e m p l o y e e s th a t a r e t h e r e . Page 49 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. H o w a r e y o u d e a li n g w i t h t h a t a r e y o u , f ir s tl y t a l k i n g t o t h e i n d i v i d u a ls c o n c e r n e d t o s a y, l o o k f o r A , B , C , D r e a s o n s i t w o u l d a p p e a r th a t y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t – p r o m o t i o n w a s ir r e g u la r a n d r e fl e c t o n it , w e w o u l d l ik e t o c h a n g e t h e s i tu a ti o n m a y b e t h i s h o w w e w o u l d l ik e it to b e d o n e , w h a t d o y o u h a v e t o s a y w i t h a v i e w t o r e v e r s i n g th e p r o m o ti o n o r h o w is i t b e in g h a n d l e d g e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th e m a n a g e r i n w h ic h i t h a s b e e n h a n d l e d , b e c a u s e t h is w a s a ls o p a r t o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s fr o m t h e 10 [i n d is t in c t] c o m m i t t e e a n d th e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r, w e d id n o t w a n t t o t a k e t h e l a w i n to o u r h a n d s b e c a u s e , C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u m u s t a ls o r e m e m b e r S A B C h a s c l e a r l y d e f i n e d p o l ic ie s w h e n i t c o m e s t o s e le c ti o n a n d a p p o i n t m e n t. A s a n i n d iv i d u a l p r o fe s s i o n a l y o u w o u ld k n o w i f y o u a r e b e i n g a p p o i n t e d ir r e g u la r a t a n y g iv e n t i m e . Th e e x c u s e th a t w e ’v e h a d o v e r th e p a s t w a s , o h n o s o a n d s o d i d i t , I w a s a p p o in t e d b u t i t t a k e s t w o , y o u w e r e n o t f o r c e d t o b e a p p o i n te d in a p a r t ic u l a r r o le . S o o u r a p p r o a c h h a s b e e n t o a p p r o a c h th e C o u r t t o h e lp u s s e t a s id e t h e s e a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d d e c la r e t h e m i n v a li d b u t a ls o t h e p o in t t h a t y o u ’v e m a d e , C h a ir p e r s o n , t o s a y c o u ld t h e y g o b a c k to t h e ir o r i g i n a l 20 p o s i ti o n s , t h e p r o b l e m is t h a t t h o s e p o s i ti o n s h a v e a l r e a d y b e e n fi ll e d a n d I t h in k fo r u s is t h e m a t t e r o f j u s t ic e t o e n s u r e t h a t w e ta k e t h is t o Court and not take the law in our own hands. B y t h e w a y w e s ta r t e d w i t h 2 7 e m p l o y e e s w h a t h a s s i n c e h a p p e n e d is w e ’v e n o w b e e n in u n d a t e d w i th a l o t m o r e . P e o p l e c o m i n g fo r t h t o s a y w e k n o w t h a t t h is – w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h is p e r s o n p r o c e s s e s w e r e n o t f o ll o w e d , e v e n Page 50 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 in th a t w e ’r e g o i n g t o g o t h r o u g h th e c o m p r e h e n s iv e p r o c e s s o f in v e s t i g a t io n th a t w e n t th r o u g h w i t h th e 2 7 a n d w e ’r e g o i n g t o th e n come back with a phase 2 when it comes to these processes. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u Mr M x a k w e it ’s n o w q u a r te r p a s t … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I t h i n k w e c a n ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t e l e v e n , l e t’s a d j o u r n . REGISTRAR: 10 A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir m a n Mr M x a k w e c a n y o u ju s t g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s t io n th a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d a s k e d y o u b e c a u s e i t is j u s t s o m e t h i n g y o u s p o k e a b o u t t e a a b o u t y o u n o t fi ll in g th e v a c a n c i e s th a t is t h e S A B C w h e n I s a y y o u n o t fi ll in g t h e 3 0 0 a c t in g p o s it i o n s o r a p p o i n ti n g p e o p le p e r m a n e n tly to – s o to s p e a k . C o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e a s o n s y o u h a d – I h a d p u t in t h e r e a s o n t o y o u b y s a y in g b e c a u s e y o u d id n o t h a v e m o n e y y o u th o u g h t t h e n y o u w o u ld n o t 20 a p p o i n t t h e s e p e o p l e p e r m a n e n t ly b u t w h a t a r e t h e r e a s o n s fo r t h a t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h j u s t s w i tc h o n t h e m ic r o p h o n e . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja thank you. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : O h th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e r e w a s Page 51 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a m in is t e r i a l d ir e c tiv e in D e c e m b e r s a y i n g th a t t h e e n t i ty s h o u l d n o t fi ll in s o m e o f t h e p o s it i o n s b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a p r o c e s s o f i n t e g r a t in g t w o d e p a r t m e n ts . A s a r e s u l t w e a r e n o t a b l e t o fi ll th o s e – th a t is w h y w e w e r e o n ly a b l e t o d o t h is la s t m o n t h w h e n t h e – t h e m o r a t o r i u m w a s t h e n d e c la r e d w e c o u ld n o w f il l t h e o th e r p o s i ti o n s . S o i t is n o t j u s t a n is s u e o f m o n e y b u t t h e r e a s o n w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s a d ir e c t iv e fr o m t h e m i n is tr y t h a t w e s h o u l d n o t fi ll i n th e p o s i t io n s u n t il s u c h ti m e t h a t in t e g r a t io n p r o c e s s h a s t a k e n p l a c e . S o th a t – t h a t h a s n o w b e e n p a r t i a l ly l i ft e d th a t is w h y w e a r e a b le t o a d v e r t is e fo r t h e 9 1 p o s i ti o n s 10 t h a t I m e n t io n e d e a r l i e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . Th a n k y o u . C a n w e g o t o p a g e 6 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t n o w ? G e n e r a l’s R e p o r t. W e d e a l w i t h t h e A u d it o r I w o u l d l ik e t o t a k e y o u to s o m e a s p e c ts o f t h a t r e p o r t . Th is i s f o r th e 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 8 fi n a n c i a l y e a r a n d t h a t r e p o r t a p p e a r s at page 30. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . H e r e t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l i t is w r i t t e n it is e n ti tl e d D is c l a i m e r o f O p in io n . 20 My understanding is that t h e A G w o u l d m a k e a d i s c l a i m e r o n l y w h e n t h e A G is n o t g iv e n s u ffi c i e n t i n fo r m a ti o n i n o r d e r fo r h i m t o b e a b l e t o fo r m u l a te a n o p i n i o n a b o u t t h e f i n a n c ia l s t a t u s o f a n y e n t i ty, a m I c o r r e c t? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : P a r t i a l ly. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o t h e b ig g e s t h e r e w a s t h e A u d i t o r Page 52 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 G e n e r a l r a is e d c o n c e r n s i n t e r m s o f th e s t a tu s o f g o i n g c o n c e r n f o r th e S A B C . T h e y l o o k e d a t th e s h o r t t e r m li a b il i ti e s v is a v ie o u r a s s e ts a n d I t h i n k th e b i g g e s t is s u e a l s o t h e r e w a s th e c a u s e f o r c o n c e r n a r o u n d r e c k l e s s tr a d i n g o r tr a d in g u n d e r i n s o l v e n t c ir c u m s t a n c e s . S o t h a t w a s t h e b i g g e s t i s s u e th a t t h e y h a d . A n d o n c e a g a i n t h e id e a t h e r e w a s w e were hoping at the point – at that point that there would have been fi n a n c i a l i n j e c t io n b e c a u s e t h e y w a n t e d c e r ta i n t y t o s a y, a r e y o u g o i n g t o b e a b l e t o p r o c e e d a s a b u s i n e s s in t h e n e x t t w e lv e m o n t h s ? And o w i n g t o t h e f a c t t h a t w e c o u l d n o t g e t a n y c o n fir m a t i o n t h a t w a s t h e 10 b i g g e s t is s u e w h e n i t c o m e s to g o i n g c o n c e r n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n h a s – w h a t is t h e p o s i t io n now? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th e p o s i ti o n h a s … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e c a u s e I – s o r r y – s o r r y ju s t to j u s t a s k . B e c a u s e I w o u ld i m a g i n e a l t h o u g h t h e A G h a s f la g g e d th a t l o o k t h e r e is a d i s c l a i m e r o f o p i n i o n b u t h e w o u l d h a v e g o n e b a c k to t h e e n t i ty t o s a y t h a t y o u n e e d t o s a t is fy A , B , C , D a n d E I w o u l d i m a g in e . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 A n d y o u r m a n a g e m e n t s ta t e m e n ts o r a c c o u n t s t h a t y o u w o u l d s u b mi t t o h i m w o u ld a ls o d e a l w i t h t h o s e a s p e c ts . I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d i n t e r m s o f c o m p li a n c e w h a t – w h a t h a s b e e n d o n e s in c e t h e t i m e t h a t A G R e p o r t c a m e t o t h e f o r e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I k n o w t h e C F O i s g o i n g t o t a lk t o th is b u t w e h a v e b e e n a b le t o e n s u r e th a t a l l o f t h e s t a te m e n ts t h a t a r e s u b m i tt e d r e fl e c t t h e c o m p l e te n e s s th a t w a s r e q u ir e d . B u t th e s e c o n d Page 53 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 p o i n t w h e n it c o m e s to g o in g c o n c e r n r e g r e tt a b l y w e a r e a c tu a lly w h e r e w e w e r e la s t y e a r o w in g to th e fa c t t h a t th e r e is n o c a p i ta l i n j e c t io n fo r the SABC. A n d i n t h e e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h A G t h e y h a v e o n c e a g a i n r a i s e d a c o n c e r n o n t h is m a t t e r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Thank you. T h e m a t t e r s th a t y o u r a i s e y o u h a v e to u c h e d u p o n t h e m i n p a r a g r a p h s 2 9 r i g h t u p t o p a r a g r a p h 3 2 b u t t h e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d d e a l t w i t h t h e r e c o n s t it u ti o n o f th e b o a r d i n 2 0 1 7 a n d w e d o n o t h a v e t o d e a l w i t h th a t . B u t w h a t I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o t e s t i fy t o is th e s tr a t e g i c r o a d m a p . Is th a t t h e s a m e 10 a s t h a t s t r a t e g y – t u r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d spoke about yesterday? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d y o u h a v e a t ta c h e d i t t o y o u r s t a te m e n t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I h a v e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I f I m a y ju s t d ir e c t th e C h a ir p e r s o n t o t h e r e l e v a n t p a g e . Yo u w il l f in d i t – Mr C h a ir m a n i t is a t p a g e 3 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . A n d it is S A B C s tr a t e g ic r o a d 20 map. CHAIRPERSON: A n d I t h i n k th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d d e a l t w i t h w h a t h e c o n s id e r e d w e r e k e y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e r e c r i ti c a l m a t t e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : K e y f is s u r e s I th i n k th r e e o f t h e m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r. Page 54 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 CHAIRPERSON: And I do not know whether you … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I just want you to… C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e g o i n g t o a s k M r M x a k w e t o i d e n t if y th o s e th a t he regards as key himself or … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a r e t h e y – th e C h a ir h a d i d e n t i fi e d t h e m y e s t e r d a y c o u l d y o u j u s t i f h e h a s le f t o u t a n y o t h e r i m p o r t a n t a s p e c ts o f t h is s t r a t e g y. 10 CHAIRPERSON: O r i f h e m ig h t n o t a g r e e h e m i g h t h a v e a d i ff e r e n t v ie w. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Or maybe … C H A I R P E R S O N : H e m ig h t h a v e a d i ffe r e n t v ie w a s to … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t h e r e g a r d s a s i m p o r t a n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h o n e s a r e k e y f is s u r e s ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t n o t a s s u m e th a t th e y a g r e e . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s n o I a m f u l ly a l ig n e d w i th C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I th in k … 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I f I m a y c o m m e n t w h e n w e – w e j o i n e d in J u l y 2 0 1 8 t h e b o a r d m a n d a t e d u s to d e v e l o p a s tr a t e g i c r o a d m a p f o r t h e S A B C a n d i n d e e d w e d e v e l o p e d t h is . W e e n g a g e d w it h a l l t h e k e y s t a k e h o ld e r s , t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a ti o n s a t th e ti m e . W e a l s o g o t in p u t s f r o m o r g a n is e d l a b o u r a n d th e n e x t p o i n t w a s t o e n s u r e th a t Page 55 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 w e c a s c a d e t h is t h r o u g h o u t t h e d i ffe r e n t le v e ls i n th e o r g a n is a t i o n . A n d C h a ir p e r s o n s p o k e a b o u t t h is b u t j u s t t o r e in f o r c e th e p o in t . Th e r e is a c o u p l e o f p i ll a r s t h a t i t is b a s e d o n t h e fi r s t o n e is t o a c c e l e r a t e and maximise revenue generation. T h e s e c o n d p o in t is t o d e a l w i t h c o s t c u t ti n g m e a s u r e s a c r o s s t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . T h e t h i r d p o i n t is to d e a l w i t h g o v e r n a n c e i s s u e s a n d I t h in k w h a t is v e r y k e y f o r m e C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e o f t h i s s t r a t e g y w h ic h b y t h e w a y h a s c l e a r l y o u t li n e d tu r n a r o u n d p la n s . Whether you talking s u s t a i n a b il i ty w h a t w e n e e d to d o t h e r e . 10 p l a t fo r m s a n d c o n t e n t . d i g i t a l s tr a te g y. a b o u t fi n a n c i a l W h e th e r y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t W h e th e r y o u l o o k a t d i g i t a l . W e h a v e a s o l id HR we want to ensure that we have a competent w o r k fo r c e t h a t is g e a r e d to w a r d s – th a t i s fe e d f o r p u r p o s e . T h e n o n terms of governance to produce and i n s ti l a solid governance fr a m e w o r k in t e r n a ll y. A n d t h e la s t p a s t is o n p a r t n e r s h i p s . A n d I t h i n k C h a ir I n e e d t o h a s te n b e c a u s e w h e n p e o p l e t a l k a b o u t t h e s e p a r t n e r s h i p s t h e r e is t h is n a r r a ti v e n o w th a t S A B C n e e d s to s tr i p s o m e o f i ts a s s e ts . W e w i ll n o t d o t h a t . A n d f o r t h e s i m p le r e a s o n i f y o u l o o k f o r e x a m p le th e r e is a s t a ti o n c a ll e d X K F M t h a t s e r v e s t h e C o o a n d t h e K w e p e o p l e i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e . W e p u m p i n m il li o n s i n th a t s ta t i o n 20 a n d f r o m a r e t u r n o n i n v e s t m e n t w e h a v e n il f in a n c ia lly. B u t i n t e r ms o f o u r m a n d a t e w h ic h is r e a lly to i n fo r m a l l S o u th A f r i c a n p e o p le i t is a c t u a ll y k e y f o r u s . S o t h e r e h a s b e e n t h a t. B u t c o m in g b a c k t o t h is . B e c a u s e o f t h e s o l id t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y a n d p l a n th e S A B C h a s b e e n a b l e t o s t a y a f lo a t fo r t h e p a s t m a n y m o n th s d e s p i t e n o t h a v i n g a n y f o r m o f f i n a n c i a l i n je c t i o n . A n d y o u c a n i m a g i n e C h a i r p e r s o n w h a t th e n Page 56 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 w o u ld h a p p e n i f th e s tr a te g y th a t h a s t a k e n u s w h e r e w e a r e t o d a y c o u l d a c tu a l ly b e p r o p e r ly r e c a p i t a l is e d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Th e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u r a is e fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 3 4 r e la t e t o t h is tu r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y w h i c h y o u h a v e d e a lt w it h q u i te in d e ta il t h i s m o r n i n g a n d th e c a p i t a l in je c ti o n m a t t e r s a n d t h e fo r e n s ic r e p o r t s r i g h t u p t o p a r a g r a p h 4 0 a n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 4 1 t h e s e a r e m a t te r s t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d d e a l t w i t h b u t t h e n t h e n e x t w i t n e s s is g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h m a t t e r s r e l a t i n g t o e d i t o r ia l in t e r fe r e n c e . If I m a y th e n j u s t ta k e y o u u n l e s s t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g i n 10 t h a t – o n t h a t p a g e th a t y o u w a n t t o e m p h a s i s e b u t t h e s e a r e t h e m a t t e r s th a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y t e s ti f ie d t o . e x p e n d i t u r e a ll o f th o s e m a t te r s . Fr u it l e s s a n d w a s t e fu l B u t I w o u ld l ik e t o ta k e y o u – y o u h a v e d e a lt w i t h a d v e r tis i n g a n d h o w it fo r m s p a r t o f t h e s tr e a m fo r t h e S A B C . T h e r e is s o m e th i n g t h a t I w o u ld l i k e y o u t o d e a l w i t h w h i c h w e d e a lt w i th y e s t e r d a y. U n f o r t u n a te ly t h a t e x h i b i t I h a v e n o t a s k e d t h e R e g is tr a r t o p l a c e b e f o r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t is C C 2 3 A . Mr C h a ir m a n i f i t i s – b u t i f i t is d i ff ic u l t t o f in d w e – I c a n le a v e t h e q u e s t io n s f o r m a y b e a ft e r lu n c h . T h a t is w h e r e – i t h a s n o t b e e n p l a c e d . C a n y o u j u s t fi n d th a t i t is in t h a t p a c k – i n t h e b u n d le t h e r e ? 20 Ye s . It w il l b e a – i t is s m a l l th a t i s th e m e d i a s t a te m e n ts t h a t y o u r e fe r r e d t o y e s te r d a y. Ye s t h a n k y o u . C C 2 3 c o u l d y o u j u s t ta k e it . C H A I R P E R S O N : W il l i t b e w r it t e n M e d i a s o m e th i n g o n t h e s p i n e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o i t i s w r i t t e n C h a ir i t is th e s e s m a ll o n e s t h a t I h a n d e d u p y e s t e r d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Page 57 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E x h ib i t C 2 3 A . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o u ld – T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o u ld y o u p le a s e t u r n t o p a g e 6 o f t h a t b u n d le ? C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y 6 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a g e 6 y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a t i s t h e a r t ic l e b y t h e S t a r, a m I c o r r e c t ? T h e o n e th a t … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 W h e r e t h e y a r e q u o ti n g y o u ? S o r r y. Thank you I have got it. Thank you. I just want to find out where you w e r e q u o te d – a m I – O h t h a n k y o u . Th is is t h e is s u e t h a t w e c a n v a s s e d w i th t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e t h e S ta r h a d r e p o r te d t h a t th e S A B C b o a r d h a s r e fu s e d t o b e d r a w n o n a l le g a ti o n s o f d is c o n t e n t b e t w e e n t h e b o a r d a n d t h e S A B C to p e x e c u tiv e s . A n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d d i d t o u c h u p o n t h i s m a t te r y e s t e r d a y. D o y o u w a n t t o ta lk t o t h a t b r i e fly t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a s t o w h a t s o r t o f in t e r f e r e n c e a r e t h e s e – a r e s o m e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f th e b o a r d e n g a g e d in i n s o fa r a s t h e e x e c u tiv e r o l e s a r e c o n c e r n e d ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : 20 C h a ir p e r s o n t h e – t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n m e m b e r s o f th e b o a r d th a t a r e m a k i n g i t d i ffi c u l t f o r u s t o d o o u r jo b . I w o u ld n o t w a n t t o g e t i n to m u c h d e t a ils b u t C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B u t s u ffi c e t o s a y i n d e e d t h e r e is in t e r fe r e n c e fr o m s o m e b o a r d m e m b e r s p a r ti c u la r ly w h e n i t c o m e s to e d i to r i a l i n d e p e n d e n c e o f th e S A B C . A n d w e h a v e r a is e d th is w i th th e Page 58 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 b o a r d b u t e v e n m o r e c o n c e r n i n g n o w i s t h e i n t e r fe r e n c e in s o m e o f t h e c o m m e r c ia l o p e r a ti o n a l d e a l s th a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i th . And we have r a i s e d t h is w i th t h e b o a r d a n d fr a n k l y C h a ir p e r s o n w e h a v e r e a c h e d a p o i n t a s e s p e c i a ll y th e t h r e e d ir e c to r s a n d s o m e o f t h e E X C O m e m b e r s w h e r e t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h w e a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o o u r j o b i s b e in g s t if l e d b y t h e s e n o n - e x e c s a n d I d o t h i n k t h a t a n d I k n o w t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d th e b o a r d w o u l d l o o k i n to t h is b e c a u s e it is r e a ll y u n t e n a b le . W e c a n n o t c o n t in u e a s e x e c u t iv e s a s l o n g a s th e s e i s s u e s c o n ti n u e fr o m t h e s e m e m b e r s . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w w h e n y o u s a y th e – w a n t i n g t o g e t in v o lv e d i n t h e d e a ls d o e s th is m e a n t h a t h a v i n g to r e p o r t to t h e m a b o u t t h e d e a ls t h a t y o u a s m a n a g e m e n t y o u a r e i n v o lv e d in c o n tr a c ts t h a t y o u a r e b u s y w it h , t h e t e n d e r s th a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o i s s u e I ju s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I f I m a y ? I w o u ld n o t w a n t C h a ir p e r s o n to … C H A I R P E R S O N : To g o i n t o d e ta il s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To g e t i n to d e t a il s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B u t I j u s t w a n t t o c o n f ir m t h a t t h e r e a r e 20 board members within the SABC board. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : M a k i n g o u r j o b d i ffic u lt . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : T h e y a r e i n te r f e r in g w h e n it c o m e s t o a e d i to r i a l is s u e s a s w e l l a s s o m e o f t h e c o m m e r c i a l d e a ls . Page 59 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I t h i n k I c a n u n d e r s t a n d y o u r r e l u c t a n c e to g o i n to d e t a i ls g iv e n t h e fa c t t h a t th e b o a r d i s s t i ll s e iz e d w i t h t h e m a t t e r a s I u n d e r s t a n d it . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e r a i s e d t h e m a t t e r w i t h th e b o a r d . S o I – b u t I t h i n k t h a t i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t a t s o m e s ta g e i n t h e f u t u r e c o n s id e r a ti o n c o u l d b e g iv e n to w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y w o u l d c o m e b a c k a n d g iv e t h e 10 c o m m i s s io n m o r e d e t a i ls a t a t i m e w h e n t h e b o a r d m i g h t h a v e f i n is h e d it s p r o c e s s e s a n d s o o n . A t t h is s t a g e I a m n o t s a y i n g i t m u s t b e d o n e b u t I a m s a y in g m a y b e c o n s i d e r a ti o n s h o u l d b e g i v e n t o t h a t . I f a t th a t s t a g e i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e r e m ig h t b e d i ff i c u l t ie s th e n th e c o m m i s s io n c o u l d b e in f o r m e d a n d th e r e a s o n s c o u ld b e g iv e n a n d o n e c a n c o n s i d e r w h e t h e r i t s h o u l d b e m o r e t h a n s i m p l y a s u g g e s t io n . O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. Th e n if y o u w o u ld p e r m i t m e I th i n k m o s t o f t h e m a t t e r s th a t r u n u p t o p a r a g r a p h 6 5 20 you have dealt with. C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u b a c k – a r e y o u b a c k in t h e s t a t e m e n t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir y e s I a m b a c k i n t h e s t a te m e n t s o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I ju s t t h a t I le a v e m in e o p e n a l l t h e t i m e Page 60 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 s o i t i s e a s y t o j u s t m o v e t o i t . I f – t h a t is p a g e 1 3 C h a ir, 1 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e o n e m a t t e r t h a t I w o u ld lik e u s t o ta lk a b o u t w h ic h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n d i d to u c h u p o n i s th e o p e r a t in g m o d e l a n d t h e s tr u c t u r e o f t h e S A B C w h i c h y o u d e a l w i t h f r o m p a r a g r a p h 6 6 o n w a r d s a n d t h e r e h a b i li t a ti o n a n d a ll t h o s e . C o u ld y o u ju s t ta lk roughly about those matters? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s if I m a y ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t h in k th e – t h e b i g g e s t is s u e o n t h is w h ic h f o r u s a s e x e c u tiv e s t h a t i t is r e a ll y c o n c e r n i n g i s w e i n h e r it a n o r g a n i s a t io n t h a t is in a m e s s a n d w e a r e n o w u n d e r g o i n g a p r o c e s s o f r e h a b i li t a ti o n a n d r e n e w a l . A n d w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d a – w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d a n e n g a g e m e n t a n d w i ll in g n e s s to h e l p th e S A B C . That is s t il l n o t h a p p e n i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . A n d I d o t h i n k t h a t t h e la c k o f s u p p o r t fr o m a fu n d i n g p o i n t o f v ie w t h e is s u e o f i n te r f e r e n c e fr o m s o m e o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s t h e y p u t u s a s e x e c u t iv e d ir e c t o r s i n a v e r y d i ff ic u l t p o s i ti o n in a s fa r a s c o n ti n u i n g i n t h e s e r o le s . B e c a u s e fr a n k l y w e f e e l t h a t w e a r e i n t h e w a y o f th e b a i l o u t a n d I d o n o t t h in k i t is f a ir f o r t h e 20 S A B C . S o y o u c a n t a lk a b o u t a ll o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t w e h a v e d o n e in a f a ir a n d ju s t w o r l d . I f y o u l o o k a t th e a c h i e v e m e n t s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n a b l e a c c o m p li s h in th e p a s t t w e lv e m o n t h s i t s h o u ld b e a n o b r a in e r fo r a n y o n e t o w a n t to d o c a p i ta l i n j e c ti o n i n th e S A B C . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : a r e y o u a b l e t o – w h e n y o u a n a ly s e t h e s it u a ti o n a r e Page 61 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 y o u a b l e t o i d e n t i fy w h a t th e r e a s o n i s f o r t h is s i t u a ti o n w h e r e y o u h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n t h e fu n d i n g o r is t h a t s o m e th in g t h a t y o u w o u l d p r e f e r n o t t o d e a l w i t h a t th is s t a g e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A ll I c a n s a y C h a ir p e r s o n is th a t a s th e e x e c u tiv e te a m – a s e m p l o y e e s o f t h e S A B C w e h a v e d o n e e v e r y t h i n g a n d a n y t h i n g h u m a n ly p o s s i b l e t o t a k e t h e S A B C w h e r e i t is n o w. W e t h e r e f o r e d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d j u s ti f ia b ly w h y w e w o u l d n o t g e t t h e s u p p o r t t h a t i s r e q u ir e d . CHAIRPERSON: And you have not been told why? 10 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W e ll w e h a v e b e e n t o l d t h a t w e n e e d t o m e e t p r e c o n d i ti o n s w h ic h w e h a v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y o u h a v e m e t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W e h a v e m e t th o s e p r e c o n d i t i o n s b u t b e s i d e s w i t h o u t a n y c a p i ta l in je c ti o n w e h a v e b e e n a b l e t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e S A B C s t a y s a fl o a t t h i s f a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w s o m e ti m e s i n t h e s e s i t u a t io n s t h e p r o b le m c o u l d b e l a c k o f p o li ti c a l w il l . S o m e t i m e s i t m i g h t b e a p p r e c ia t io n o f t h e u r g e n c y o f a s i tu a ti o n . la c k o f B u t it is q u i te c l e a r f r o m y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d t h e e v i d e n c e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t th e m a tt e r i s 20 u r g e n t a n d n e e d s t o b e a t te n d e d to u r g e n t l y. Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: M a y b e w h i l s t t h e C h a ir is o n t h a t p o in t m a y b e w e s h o u l d j u s t j u m p t o y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t b e c a u s e y o u d e a l w i t h th e is s u e a n d y o u a t ta c h t h e c o n d it i o n s th a t h a v e b e e n Page 62 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 p l a c e d b e fo r e t h e S A B C f o r i t to f u l f il . C h a ir m a y I d ir e c t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n to p a g e 1 0 5 ? Th a t i s a n a n n e x u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e – I a m s o r r y b e fo r e – b e f o r e th a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: C h a ir p e r s o n . A n d I m a y b e I s h o u ld h a v e a s k e d t h i s t o t h e I a m w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r t h e – th e b o a r d h a s a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w il l f o r g i v e m e i f I d id a s k h i m a n d h e d id r e s p o n d a n d I h a v e f o r g o t t e n w h e t h e r t h e b o a r d h a s – h a s s a i d t o th e s h a r e h o l d e r o f t o t h e M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e w h y a r e n o t b e i n g g iv e n f u n d in g in t h e l ig h t 10 o f th e c o m p l ia n c e t h a t is t h e r e fo r e v e r y b o d y t o s e e w i th th e c o n d i t io n s that were given to us? A n d i f s o is t h e r e a n a n s w e r th a t h a s b e e n g iv e n o r i s t h e r e s i l e n c e ? I a m s a y i n g I d o n o t k n o w if I d i d a s k t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n y t h i n g a l o n g t h o s e l i n e s b u t y o u m a y o r m a y n o t b e a b l e to say? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t h in k t h a t q u e s ti o n is a b o v e my p a y grade. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B u t w h a t I d o k n o w is t h a t t h e r e w a s a r e s p o n s e t h a t t h e b o a r d s e n t t o b o t h Mi n is t e r s C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I g u e s s t h a t is th e o n e w h e r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s a i d M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e th e t w o m i n i s te r s w e r e n o t g i v e n t h e c o r r e c t in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t c o m p li a n c e . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . As f a r a s y o u r e c a l l h o w l o n g a g o w a s th a t ? Page 63 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : T h is le t t e r w a s w r i t te n l a s t w e e k o n Fr id a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o t h e r e m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n e n o u g h t i m e s in c e t h e n ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r r e a c ti o n . O k a y n o th a t is fi n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a y I t a k e t h e w i t n e s s t o 10 page 105? T h is is t h e le t t e r t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n r e fe r r e d y e s te r d a y b u t s a i d y o u w il l d e a l w i th t h e d e t a ils . It was addressed to the C h a ir p e r s o n f r o m b o t h m in is tr i e s th a t is th e M i n i s t r y o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n s a n d t h e M i n i s tr y o f Fi n a n c e . If you have a look at page 109 both M i n is t e r s s i g n e d th e l e t te r o n t h e 2 7 t h A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I d o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n t h is is th e l e t t e r t h a t s e e m s t o d e a l w i t h e a c h o f t h e c o n d i t io n s t h a t w e r e p u t o n t h e t a b l e fo r t h e S A B C t o c o m p ly w i th . Ye s . F o r t h e r e c o r d c o u l d y o u j u s t h ig h l i g h t t h e s e c o n d it i o n s t o – t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n b u t b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t m a y b e 20 it i s i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e t h e r e is s o m e t h in g d e f i n i t e t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r s s a y. I t s o u n d s q u i t e d e f in i te t h a t th e y s a y i n t h e b o d y o f t h e l e t t e r. I f y o u l o o k a t – i f y o u c o u l d r e a d p a r a g r a p h 3 o f th a t le t t e r ? I t is b r o u g h t – l e t u s s t a r t w i t h – it is b r o u g h t – a t p a g e 1 0 5 . A r e y o u t h e r e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir p e r s o n . I a m n o t s u r e if t h is w o u ld b e p r o p e r B e c a u s e th is w a s fr o m m y C h a ir p e r s o n t o t h e p o li t ic a l Page 64 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 h e a d s w o u ld it b e p r o p e r f o r m e t o g o th r o u g h th is ? CHAIRPERSON: W e ll i f it is p la c e d h e r e a n d I a m s u r e y o u r C h a ir p e r s o n k n o w s i t is h e r e i t w o u l d b e fi n e . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n i s p r e s e n t C h a ir. W e c o u l d j u s t s w o p p l a c e s w i t h h i m i f h e d o e s n o t w a n t to t a l k . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I d o n o t th i n k i t i s r e a l ly n e c e s s a r y b e c a u s e a ll h e – a ll y o u w il l b e d o in g i s r e a d i n g w h a t t h e l e tt e r s a y s . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t w h a t is c o n t a i n e d y e s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : O h a lr i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w i t i s n o t l ik e w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g . J a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . P a r a g r a p h 3 i t b e g i n s w i th “ i t is brought” M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W h a t p a g e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 105. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : 1 0 5 o k a y. Ye s I a m t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d p a r a g r a p h 3 o f th e l e tt e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I t s a y s : C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p a r a g r a p h s a r e n o t n u m b e r e d b u t it is p a r a g r a p h 3. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : “ I t is b r o u g h t t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e S A B C t h a t t h e Page 65 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y w il l n o t r e le a s e a n y p a r t o f th e 3 . 2 b i ll io n e a r m a r k e d f u n d i n g a l lo c a t io n f o r th e S A B C u n t il t h e t w o d e p a r t m e n ts a r e s a t is fi e d t h a t t h e P u b l ic Broadcaster has f u l ly c o m p li e d or d e m o n s t r a t e d a c o m m i t m e n t t o c o m p ly w i t h a l l o f th e p r e v i o u s c o n d i ti o n s t o t h e f u n d i n g . T h e 3 .2 b il li o n f u n d i n g w i ll b e r e le a s e d i n tr a n c h e s a s a n d w h e n t h e S A B C p r o d u c e s s a ti s fa c t o r y e v i d e n c e i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e p r e c o n d it i o n s . ” 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d th is is w h e r e b o t h y o u a n d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d a r e c e r t a in ly i n a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h e p o s i t io n is t h a t e i t h e r a l l t h e c o n d i ti o n s h a v e b e e n c o m p li e d w i th o r t h e r e h a s b e e n a s u b s t a n t ia l c o m p l ia n c e w i t h m o s t o f t h e c o n d i ti o n s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e r e fo r e to th e e x t e n t th a t o n e o f t h e – y o u e i t h e r m u s t s h o w c o m p l ia n c e o r d e m o n s tr a te a c o m m i t m e n t to c o m p ly w i t h a l l p r e c o n d i ti o n s . Yo u s a y b o t h y o u a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s a y c le a r ly y o u h a v e d e m o n s tr a te d – S A B C h a s d e m o n s tr a te d a c o m m i t m e n t 20 b u t y o u s a y a c t u a l ly y o u h a v e c o m p li e d . I f n o t w i t h a l l w i t h s u b s t a n t ia l portion of them. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o ju s t p l a c e a l l … Page 66 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t m a y b e t o b e f a ir o n t h o s e w h o m a y b e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r g i v i n g t h e f u n d i n g . In s o f a r a s th e y m a y o n l y h a v e h a d f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e t h a t S A B C h a s c o m p li e d o r s u b s t a n ti a l ly c o m p l ie d th a t w o u ld o n ly h a v e b e e n la s t w e e k ? A n d t h e r e f o r e th e r e h a s n o t b e e n a lo t o f t i m e f o r t h e m M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r S A B C t o s e e w h e t h e r th e y a r e a c t i n g o r n o t . 10 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I am not sure now if you – would you – are y o u p r e p a r e d t o p l a c e a l l t h e p r e c o n d i ti o n s o n r e c o r d o r w o u l d y o u r a th e r le a v e th a t fo r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o d e a l w i t h ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : I c a n d o i t . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . J u s t r e a d in t h e h e a d i n g s o f a ll t h e p r e c o n d i t io n s s o t h a t t h e y a r e o n r e c o r d ? 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I d o n o t k n o w i f w e n e e d t o g o th r o u g h th e m b e c a u s e t h e y a r e i n th e l e t te r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B e c a u s e th e y a r e h e r e C h a ir. Ye s t h a n k you. CHAIRPERSON: And… ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And can I… Page 67 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I t h i n k th e – a t t h i s s t a g e w e d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d there to be any dispute. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e y a r e c l e a r. N o tr u e C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e y a r e n o t s a y i n g t h e r e is a n y d i ff ic u l ty w i t h c o m p ly i n g w i th a l l o f t h e m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w e c a n j u s t s a y c o n f ir m o n r e c o r d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t th e c o n d i ti o n s a r e i n t h is l e t te r. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . D o y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h e s e a r e t h e c o n d i t io n s t h a t w e r e p la c e d b e f o r e t h e S A B C ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s t h e y a r e . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h a t y o u r r e s p o n s e s t o t h e c o n d i ti o n s o n c o m p li a n c e th e y a p p e a r fr o m p a g e 11 2 r ig h t u p t o p a g e 11 9 if I a m c o r r e c t . S o r r y C h a ir. 1 2 2 . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n t h e a tt a c h m e n ts th a t g o w i t h t h a t r ig h t u p t o t h e l a s t p a g e o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t – o f y o u r a n n e x u r e s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t w il l g o u p t o p a g e 1 3 0 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o t h a t is a l l t h e r e s p o n s e s t h a t y o u h a d f u r n is h e d t o t h e M in is t e r s ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Page 68 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 CHAIRPERSON: W i t h r e g a r d t o th e c o n d i ti o n s o n ly i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u p a r t ic u l a r ly w a n t t o d r a w m y a t t e n t io n t o – if t h e r e is s u c h y o u c a n m e n ti o n b u t o t h e r w is e a s l o n g a s w e k n o w w h e r e t h e y are that should be enough because you are not saying we have d i ff ic u l ti e s w it h c o n d i ti o n A , B , C , D y o u s a y w i ll – h a v e c o m p li e d w it h m o s t i f n o t a l l . B u t if th e r e is – t h e r e a r e s o m e t h a t y o u w a n t t o d r a w t o m y s p e c ia l a t t e n t io n th a t – y o u m a y d o s o . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s C h a i r i f I m a y o n p a g e 11 0 . The t h ir d p a r a g r a p h th e r e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s d o y o u w a n t to r e a d i t M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . I t s a y s : “It is our c o m p li e d u n d e r s t a n d in g or s u b s ta n ti a lly that we have c o m p li e d w it h either each p r e c o n d i t io n w h ic h h a s b e e n d e m o n s tr a t e d b y th e s u b s t a n t iv e d o c u m e n t a ti o n s u p p li e d o v e r a p e r i o d of eight months. d e t a i ls on th e W e h a v e a t t a c h e d t o t h is l e t te r S A B C ’s c o m p li a n c e w it h each c o n d i ti o n . ” CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s . Yo u - y o u m a y b e w a n ti n g t o - d o y o u w a n t t o c o m p le t e a s a m e p o i n t y o u w a n t t o m a k e o u t o f th a t … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u j u s t w a n te d to r e a d t h a t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Indeed I just wanted to emphasis C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w e - w e h a v e d e m o n s tr a t e d w i th a ll o f th e a t ta c h m e n ts h o w w e h a v e b e e n a b l e t o c o m p ly … Page 69 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : O r s u b s t a n t ia ll y c o m p ly w i t h e a c h o f t h e s e c o n d i ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o th a t is f in e b u t a n o t h e r p o i n t w h ic h a r is e s f o r m e o u t t h is p a r a g r a p h y o u h a v e r e a d is th e r e fe r e n c e to e i g h t m o n t h s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I s a id a f e w m in u te s a g o to t h e e x t e n t t h a t th e t w o M i n is t e r s m i g h t n o t - m i g h t o n l y h a v e h a d f o r t h e fi r s t ti m e la s t w e e k t h a t y o u h a v e c o m p li e d w i t h a l l t h e p r e c o n d it i o n s . 10 c o m p li e d s u b s t a n ti a l ly. So you have T h e r e m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n e n o u g h t i m e f o r them to make the necessary decisions but there is this reference to e i g h t m o n t h s a n d t h e q u e s ti o n th a t a r is e s is w h e th e r t h i s a m o u n ts t o s a y in g t h e r e h a v e b e e n e i g h t m o n t h s d u r i n g w h i c h - in w h ic h w e h a v e c o m p li e d … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . CHAIRPERSON: W it h a l l o r s u b s t a n t i a l ly a n d th e r e f o r e t h e y o u g h t t o h a v e k n o w n w e h a d c o m p li e d a n d th e l e t t e r o f l a s t w e e k w a s s i m p ly s t a ti n g s o m e t h i n g t h e y s h o u l d h a v e k n o w n fo r th e p a s t e i g h t m o n th s a n y w a y o r i s th e p o s i t io n t h a t l o o k t h e y m i g h t n o t h a v e k n o w n t h a t 20 t h e r e h a s b e e n c o m p l i a n c e o r t h e y m i g h t h a v e k n o w n th a t th e r e h a s b e e n s o m e c o m p l ia n c e b u t t h e y m i g h t n o t h a v e k n o w n t h e le v e l o f c o m p li a n c e u n til la s t w e e k w h e n th e y - t h e l e t te r w a s s e n t . I t h i n k i t i s t h a t c la r i fi c a t io n w h ic h I w o u l d li k e i f p o s s i b l e . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Th a t e i g h t m o n th s C h a ir p e r s o n r e f e r s t o t h e ti m e w h e n w e s u b m it t e d a ll o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s r e q u ir e d Page 70 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 for the funding. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A n d w e t h e n h a v e h a d to f i n e - t u n e s o m e o f o u r s u b m is s io n s t h r o u g h o u t th e s e p a s t e ig h t m o n t h s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : A n d w o r k i n g v e r y c lo s i n g w it h G T E C . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : S o i t r e f e r s t o t h e - t o t h e p e r io d w h e n t h is - t h e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o m p li a n c e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s in p l a c e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o - s o t h e r e fo r e it w o u l d b e f a ir to s a y t h e r e h a s b e e n m o r e t h a n e n o u g h ti m e f o r d e c is io n s to b e t a k e n if w h a t p r e v e n t e d c e r t a in d e c i s i o n s fr o m b e in g t a k e n p r e v io u s ly w a s t o a l lo w y o u a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o c o m p ly w i th t h e c o n d it io n s ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d - a n d y o u d o n o t k n o w - y o u d o n o t k n o w t h e 20 r e a s o n w h y th e d e c is io n s h a v e n o t b e e n m a d e ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : N o t a t a l l C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h a t w a s a n i m p o r t a n t c la r i fi c a t io n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 71 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th e n I t h i n k t h a t is a l l t h e n i n th e m a i n s t a te m e n t . I th i n k y o u h a v e c o v e r e d a l l t h e i m p o r ta n t a s p e c ts i n y o u r m a i n s t a te m e n t . C o u l d y o u t h e n m o v e t o p a g e 4 9 w h ic h c o n ta in s y o u r - y o u r s u p p le m e n t a r y a n d b e a r i n g i n m i n d t h a t y o u h a v e ju s t c o v e r e d t h e is s u e a b o u t t h e f u n d i n g n o w ? Ye s , p a g e 4 9 . Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y t e s ti f ie d t o t h e c o r r e c t i o n t h a t y o u w a n t e d to m a k e in p a r a g r a p h 3 … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A b o u t t h e c a s h b a la n c e s d u r i n g t h o s e fi n a n c i a l y e a r s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u d id t e s ti f y t o t h a t. A m I c o r r e c t? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I d i d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i f w e - y o u h a v e d e a lt w i t h th e a m o r ti s a t io n o f c o n t e n t … M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W h ic h a p p e a r s a t p a g e 5 0 a n d th e n y o u h a v e - w h a t I w o u ld l ik e u s t o j u s t g o b a c k to a l th o u g h y o u t o u c h e d 20 u p o n it s li g h t ly b u t I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o e x p l a i n w h a t y o u e x p la i n a t p a g e 5 3 p a r a g r a p h 1 7 - fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o n w a r d s a b o u t t h e P S L r i g h ts a c q u is i ti o n b e c a u s e i t is a n i m p o r t a n t m a t t e r t h a t a ff e c ts t h e p u b l ic a n d t h e p u b lic n e e d to k n o w h o w t h is a ll - a l l w o r k s a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y. W h a t p a g e a r e y o u ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A t p a g e 5 3 C h a ir. Page 72 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H m . CHAIRPERSON: I s w h a t h e h a s t o s a y t h e r e a n y d i ffe r e n t fr o m w h a t b o t h h e a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a v e t o l d u s a b o u t t h e s p o r t s r i g h t s … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i s t h e r e s o m e t h in g s p e c i f ic ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o m e t h i n g s p e c i f ic a b o u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o m e li c e n c in g C h a ir w h ic h … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h ic h w e h a v e n o t t o u c h e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To u c h e d u p o n . Ye s c o u l d y o u p le a s e j u s t e x p l a i n b r i e fl y w h a t y o u s t a t e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 r ig h t u p t o 2 1 ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : B a s ic a lly w e a r e s a y i n g th e r e w e u s e d t o - S A B C w a s - i t h a d a n e x c l u s iv e a g r e e m e n t a t th e ti m e in t e r m s o f t h e P S L m a tc h e s . H o w e v e r w e h a v e t h e n h a d t o s u b l ic e n c e t h e s e fr o m S u p e r S p o r t. 20 I a m n o t s u r e i f y o u w a n t m e t o g e t in t o t h e d e t a i ls b u t s u ffi c e t o s a y t h e d e a l t h a t w e h a v e n o w s i g n e d w i t h S u p e r S p o r t i n terms of PSL matches it does meet the mandate in terms of b r o a d c a s t in g a l l o f th e - m o s t o f t h e k e y m a tc h e s b u t u n d e r l y i n g t h a t is t h e - w h ic h is v e r y c r i t ic a l fo r u s i s t h a t i t i s c o m m e r c ia ll y v i a b l e f o r th e S A B C . W e - w e h a v e h a d t o m o v e a w a y f r o m a h i s t o r ic c o n tr a c t t h a t t h a t r e s u l te d in t o a lo t o f l o s s e s i n to o n e t h a t a ll o w s u s t o f u l f il o u r Page 73 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 m a n d a t e b u t i n a m a n n e r t h a t e v e n th o s e l o s s e s c o m p a r e d t o t h e p r e v i o u s o n e s a r e t h e o n e s th a t w e - w e c a n b e a b le t o m a n a g e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. I … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t t h in k h e n e e d s t o g o i n to d e ta il s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o . I t is f in e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and then … CHAIRPERSON: One second. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: We … CHAIRPERSON: One second. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: ( W h is p e r i n g ) . C a n y o u a s k th e R e v e r e n d t o p u t o n t h e a ir c o n ? Ye s c o n ti n u e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C a n w e th e n j u m p b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e m a t te r s y o u h a v e c o v e r e d ? 20 Just your key s u b m is s io n s t o t h e S A B C - o f t h e S A B C t o I C A S A . J u s t h i g h l ig h t t h o s e t o p ic s t h a t y o u w a n te d I C A S A t o d e a l w i t h in i ts r e v i e w a n d i t s r e g u la t io n s . Yo u h a v e d e a l t l a r g e ly w i t h t h e m u s t c a r r y c o n c e p t s . J u s t - b e c a u s e t h e s e t h a t y o u a r e - s u g g e s te d t o IC A S A I w o u ld b e l i e v e a r e r e l e v a n t . N o w y o u w o u ld li k e t h e C h a i r to t a k e n o t e o f w h a t is i t t h a t y o u p r o p o s e g o i n g f o r w a r d , a m I r ig h t ? Page 74 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Thank you. C o u l d y o u th e n s ta r t fr o m p a g e 5 8 ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: J u s t - y o u h a v e h i g h l i g h t e d th o s e k e y s u b m is s io n s w h i c h y o u m a d e t o I C A S A . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : W e ll t h e ( i n te r v e n e s ) . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t o n t h e t o p ic s , y e s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : 10 Th e fi r s t o n e C h a i r is t h e is s u e o f c o m p e ti t io n . W e - w e f e e l t h e r e t h a t t h e - t h e r e is a n e e d f o r a p r o p e r v a l u a ti o n o f th e s e s p o r t s r ig h ts to e n s u r e t h a t w h a t w e a r e p a y i n g is f a ir b u t t h e r e a ls o is a n e e d f o r tr a n s p a r e n c y b e c a u s e t h e S A B C t h e n gets locked in t o these long c o n tr a c t s that are not n e c e s s a r i ly c o m m e r c ia ll y v i a b l e . T h a t is t h e f ir s t p a r t a n d t h e s e c o n d p a r t t h a t w e h a v e s u b m i tt e d t o I C A S A is t h e u n b u n d li n g o f s p o r ts r i g h t s . Th is is q u it e k e y b e c a u s e f o r u s w e f e e l th a t t h e r i g h t h o l d e r s c u r r e n tl y t h e y c a n d o a s t h e y w is h . T h e r e n e e d s t o b e a r e g u l a t i o n t h a t w il l h e lp u s t o d e a l w i t h s o m e o f t h e s e . S o - s o a l l o f th e s e th a t y o u s e e fr o m p a g e 5 8 … 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : R i g h t. T h e s e a r e s u b m i s s i o n s b e c a u s e I C A S A r e q u e s t e d a l l t h e k e y p l a y e r s t o s u b m i t s u b m is s i o n s in te r ms o f t h e s p o r ts r ig h ts r e g u la t io n s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d r e c e n tly y o u te s ti fi e d o n b e h a l f o f the SABC before ICASA? Page 75 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a t w a s a r o u n d M a y 2 0 1 9 ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d y o u m a d e th e s e s u b m is s i o n s to ICASA? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s I d i d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th a t - th e r e is a n a n n e x u r e w h i c h w o u ld h a v e f o r m e d p a r t o f y o u r s u b m is s i o n s t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 9 8 . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : H u h - u h . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Those are th e s u b m is s i o n s - th e s u b m is s io n s t h a t y o u m a d e t o I C A S A w h e n y o u t e s t if i e d b e f o r e i t ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Ye s , th a n k y o u . I s t h e r e a n y th in g e ls e t h a t y o u w o u l d li k e to m e n t io n t o C h a ir b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e h a v e r e a c h e d t h e e n d o f y o u r t w o s ta t e m e n ts n o w ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s c e r t a i n ly. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : C h a ir just to th a n k you for the o p p o r t u n i ty to s h a r e w h a t w e f o u n d a n d w h a t w e a r e d o i n g i n t h e p a s t 20 1 2 m o n th s b u t I a ls o n e e d t o s ta t e t h a t w e - w e a t a p o i n t w h e r e y o u k n o w a s a l e a d e r a s y o u c a n o n l y i n s p ir e a n d g i v e h o p e t o a c e r t a i n le v e l b u t I a m r e a c h i n g a p o i n t n o w w h e r e e v e r y s i n g l e w e e k I a c tu a lly h a v e to a s k k e y m e m b e r s o f m y te a m n o t t o r e s i g n p r e c is e ly b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e c a r io u s s i t u a t i o n w e f in d o u r s e l v e s i n a n d I a l s o c a n n o t r e a ll y g iv e h o p e t o t h e 5 0 0 0 e m p l o y e e s o f t h e S A B C w h o k e e p e v e r y s i n g l e Page 76 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 d a y t h in k i n g s o m e t h i n g b e t t e r is g o i n g t o h a p p e n . I s a i d t o y o u e a r l i e r o n C h a ir I fe e l a n d t h a t is h o w th e th r e e e x e c u tiv e s fe e l - a n d b y t h e w a y t h a t i s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y w e l o s t a k e y m e m b e r o f t h e e x e c u tiv e te a m t h e A c t in g C E O - i s w e fe e l a s t h e t e a m w e a r e s t a n d in g in t h e w a y o f t h i s b a i lo u t a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w i ll h a p p e n a f te r t h i s b u t th e tr u th o f t h e m a t t e r is th a t w e c a n n o t c o n ti n u e th e w a y th i n g s a r e . In t h e i n t e r e s t o f th e S A B C c e r t a in to u g h d e c is i o n s n e e d t o b e ta k e n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 concerning. N o w h a t y o u h a v e s a id i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t a n d is I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h is i s w h a t y o u m e a n b u t i t m a y w e ll b e - i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t w h a t y o u m e a n is t h a t t h e t h r e e e x e c u t iv e s feel that they are not wanted. M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u m e a n ? M R M Z WA M A D O D A M X A K W E : Ye s t h a t is w h a t I m e a n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d th a t i s e x tr e m e ly c o n c e r n in g . the whole story about the SABC. I might not know I a m s ti ll g o i n g t o h e a r a l o t b u t I c e r t a i n l y d i d s e e y e s t e r d a y d o c u m e n ts t h a t s h o w e d i m p r o v e m e n t s t h a t h a v e b e e n h a p p e n i n g i n t e r m s o f lo s s e s o v e r t h e p a s t t h r e e y e a r s t h a t 20 t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s a id a n d I t h i n k c o n fir m e d th e i m p r o v e m e n t s t h a t h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e o f th e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y t h a t th e e x e c u tiv e a n d th e b o a r d h a v e c o m e u p w i t h . I - I g u e s s th a t t h e - m a y b e th e b e s t t h a t o n e c a n s a y i s t h a t t h is is q u i t e a s e r i o u s s i t u a t io n a n d s o m e - s o m e th i n g q u i t e d r a s tic n e e d s t o b e d o n e t o tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t th e r i g h t d e c is io n s a r e Page 77 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 m a d e t o - t o w h ic h w o u l d b e i n t h e i n te r e s t o f t h e i n s t it u ti o n . I c a n ju s t s a y a t t h is s t a g e i t is - i t is q u it e c o n c e r n i n g a n d I a m n o t s u r e e x a c tly w h a t i f a n y th i n g t h e C o m m i s s i o n c a n d o b u t I h o p e t h a t t h e - t h e r i g h t p e o p l e w i ll b e c o m e a w a r e o f t h is - t h e e v id e n c e y o u h a v e g iv e n a n d t h is p a r t o f i t in p a r tic u l a r a n d w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d s a i d y e s t e r d a y a n d w il l a ls o t a k e n o t e t h a t I - I t h i n k i t is s o m e th i n g th a t is q u i te c o n c e r n i n g a n d t h a t n e e d s s o m e i n t e r v e n t io n b u t I - I t h i n k a s m a n y p e o p le a s p o s s i b le m u s t b e e n c o u r a g e d to s t a n d w h e n t h e y b e li e v e th e y a r e d o in g r i g h t . S o m e t i m e s i t c a n b e d i ff ic u l t - th e s it u a ti o n c a n b e q u i te 10 d i ff ic u l t a n d s o m e t i m e s i t m ig h t b e e a s y f o r s o m e b o d y w h o is n o t i n t h a t p e r s o n ’s s h o e s t o - to s a y d o n o t d o t h is . D o t h a t a n d s o o n b u t t h a n k you for sharing that part with me. I t is q u i t e c o n c e r n i n g a n d I a m h o p in g th a t th e r i g h t i n te r v e n ti o n is g o i n g t o h a p p e n s o o n . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d t h a n k y o u f o r c o m in g to s h a r e w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h a t y o u k n o w i n te r ms o f t h e S A B C s i n c e y o u j o in e d a n d w h a t t h e e x e c u tiv e t e a m a n d b o a r d h a v e p u t i n p l a c e t o tr y a n d a c t in t h e b e s t in t e r e s t o f t h e S A B C . Thank you very much. Yo u a r e excused. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . M r C h a ir m a n m a y I a s k t h a t t h e C h a ir p l a c e s a w a y t h a t b u n d l e C C 5 t o 1 6 a n d I w o u ld li k e t o c a ll t h e n e x t w i t n e s s M s M a g o p e n i . s t a te m e n t a p p e a r s i n E X H I B I T 1 6 - C C 1 7 t o 1 8 . Her Th a t s h o u l d b e o n - n e x t t o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t m e t o ta k e a f iv e m in u t e s a d jo u r n m e n t … Page 78 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir, y e s p l e a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i le y o u p u t e v e r y th i n g … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To g e t h e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I w i ll a p p r e c ia t e t h a t . T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e w ill t a k e a f i v e m i n u t e s a d j o u r n m e n t . W e adjourn. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS 10 INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir, M r C h a i r m a n i n r e s p e c t o f t h is w i t n e s s R u l e 3 3 n o t ic e s w e r e is s u e d to fo u r p e r s o n s th a t w e r e i m p l ic a t e d b e in g M r M a tt h e w s , Mr M t z o n e n g , M s F a i t h M t h a m b e a n d M r S i m o n T h a b e l e , a n d t h e y w e r e is s u e d o n t i m e . M r M a t th e w s h a s r e s p o n d e d b u t h e h a s r e s p o n d e d l a r g e ly to s o m e o f t h e w it n e s s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d n o t to t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h i s w i tn e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t ’s fi n e . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir w e n o w w is h t o c a ll M s P h a t is w a Magopeni, could she be sworn in? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , p l e a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n . REGISTRAR: Th a n k y o u . P l e a s e s t a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e f o r th e r e c o r d ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: REGISTRAR: P h a t is w a M a g o p e n i . D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t i o n t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d Page 79 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 oath? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: REGISTRAR: No. D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r c o n s c i e n c e ? D o y o u s w e a r t h a t th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l g i v e w il l b e t h e t r u t h , th e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e your right hand and say so help me God. M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: So help me God. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I 10 ( d u ly s w o r n , s ta t e s ) ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . M s M a g o p e n i is i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u a r e th e H e a d o f N e w s fo r t h e S A B C ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That is correct. Ye s , i s it a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t th a t y o u a r e t h e fi r s t f e m a le t o H e a d n e w s a t S A B C ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A p p a r e n t ly y e s . C o u l d y o u ju s t r a i s e y o u r v o ic e a b i t o r p u ll t h e m i c c l o s e r. M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: 20 Thank you. Ye s s h e m a y h a v e to r a is e t h e v o i c e t o o , I’ m s tr u g g li n g t o h e a r, p l e a s e d o r a is e t h e v o ic e a s w e l l . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u , I’ ll d o s o . W e h a d a w i t n e s s , w a s i t l a s t w e e k o r w a s i t th is w e e k , w h o tr i e d t o r a is e h is v o ic e b u t i n t h e e n d I g a v e u p , I t h i n k h e ’s v o i c e w a s j u s t v e r y s o f t b y n a t u r e . O k a y, a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir, c o u l d y o u ju s t Page 80 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 p l a c e – o r b e f o r e y o u p l a c e y o u r q u a l if i c a ti o n s o n r e c o r d , le t ’s j u s t q u ic k ly i d e n t i fy t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n o p e n e d b e f o r e y o u , t h a t is c o n ta in e d i n E x h i b i t C C 1 7 t o 1 8 , C h a i r t h e w i tn e s s e s s t a te m e n t h a d a s k e d t h e r e g is tr a r t o p la c e i t b e f o r e y o u , i t ’s C C 1 8 i t s ta r t s fr o m p a g e one up to page 15. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a t ’s u n d e r d iv id e r C C 1 8 ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. H a v e y o u g o t i t M is s M a g o p e n i? 10 M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Ye s I ’v e g o t i t t h a n k y o u . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W o u l d y o u p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 1 5 o f t h a t s t a te m e n t – 1 4 r a t h e r, is t h a t y o u r s ig n a t u r e t h a t a p p e a r s o n t h a t p a g e ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C o r r e c t , i t ’s m y s i g n a t u r e . Ye s a n d t h is w a s c o m m i s s i o n e d o n t h e 12th of August 2019? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Correct. Ar e t h e c o n te n ts o f th is s t a te m e n t tr u e and correct? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Correct yes. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 A n d d i d y o u m a k e t h i s , o r d is p o s e t o t h is a ffi d a v i t v o lu n t a r i ly ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s Vo lu n t a r ily. Ye s t h a n k y o u , n o w le t ’s g o b a c k t h e n , w e ’l l s ta r t fr o m p a g e o n e o f y o u r s t a te m e n t b u t b e f o r e w e d o t h a t c o u l d y o u p le a s e j u s t p l a c e y o u r q u a l if ic a ti o n s b e fo r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ? MS P H AT I S WA MAGOPENI: Page 81 of 150 I m a t r ic u l a t e d in 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 [i n d is t in c t] … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l y o u h a v e to b e c a r e fu l b e c a u s e d o in g it t h a t w a y m ig h t m a k e p e o p l e t h in k t h a t y o u a r e n o t a s y o u n g , y e s . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : A lr ig h t s o I h a v e a m a tr ic t h a t I g o t in 1 9 8 9 i n [i n d i s t i n c t ], I h a v e a b a c h e l o r s o f a r t s d e g r e e fr o m U W C , U n iv e r s i ty o f t h e W e s t e r n C a p e , I h a v e a b a c h e lo r o f h o n o u r s – b a c h e lo r s o f a r ts h o n o u r s f r o m t h e s a m e u n iv e r s i ty, U n i v e r s i t y o f th e W e s t e r n C a p e , I h a v e a n i n te g r a te d m a r k e ti n g c o m m u n ic a ti o n s d ip l o m a fr o m t h e A A A s c h o o l o f a d v e r ti s i n g , I h a v e a b u s i n e s s s t u d ie s p o s t10 g r a d u a te d i p l o m a fr o m t h e G o r d o n I n s ti t u t e o f B u s i n e s s Sc i e n c e in W i ts o f Pr e t o r i a , I h a v e a m a s t e r s p h i lo s o p h y d e g r e e fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f t h e W e s t e r n C a p e a n d a m a s te r o f b u s in e s s a d m i n is tr a t i o n d e g r e e fr o m G I B B S a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f Pr e t o r i a . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll t h a t ’s t h e w a y I’ m u s e d t o , y e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u h e a r d i n o n e o f t h e m o s t c o m p o n e n ts o f w h a t th e S A B C is r e a ll y a ll a b o u t h e a d i n g t h e n e w s r o o m , c o u l d y o u j u s t t e ll t h e C h a i r p e r s o n w h a t y o u d e a l w i th – s o r r y b e fo r e I d o t h a t , w h e n d id y o u j o i n t h e S A B C ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : 20 I j o i n e d t h e S A B C o n th e 1 s t o f M a r c h 2018. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d b e f o r e y o u j o i n e d t h e S A B C where were you working? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: I was with ENCA, when I left I was the h e a d o f t e r r e s tr i a l n e w s s e r v ic e s a n d a b u s in e s s a n d e c o n o m ic e d i to r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d b e f o r e y o u w e n t t o E N C A d id Page 82 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 you work for any other news channel? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s I w a s a t S A B C b e f o r e , i t w a s f o r tw o y e a r s I le f t ju s t a s E N C A w a s l a u n c h i n g i t ’s 2 4 h o u r c h a n n e l a n d p r i o r t h a t I w a s a le c tu r e r a t th e U n iv e r s i t y o t h e W e s te r n C a p e a n d U n iv e r s i ty o f C a p e To w n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d w h e n , f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e d id y o u w o r k f o r t h e S A B C , t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t y o u w o r k e d a n d l e f t , w h e n w a s t h a t ? 10 M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: It was 2006/2007 and then I left in 2008. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d t h e n y o u r e - jo in e d i n 2 0 1 8 ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d th e n y o u f ir s t d e a l i n y o u r s t a te m e n t w i t h th e c u lt u r e a s y o u f o u n d it u p o n y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t c o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a b o u t w h a t y o u f o u n d in th e n e w s r o o m a n d w h a t y o u d e a l w i t h i n th o s e p a r a g r a p h s ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: T h e fi r s t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . I ’ m s o r r y ju s t to – c la r i fi c a t io n , y o u r p o s it i o n is h e a d o f n e w s , is th a t r i g h t? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s I a ls o h a v e e x e c u t iv e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s a s G r o u p E x e c u t iv e i n th e c o r p o r a t io n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w h a t I w a n te d to fi n d o u t i s w h e th e r h e a d o f n e w s is h e a d o f b o t h r a d io a n d T V n e w s o r ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: O h a l l o f th e m ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: I t ’s T V, r a d i o a n d d ig i ta l p l a t f o r m s . A l l o f th e m y e s . T h a n k y o u , y e s y o u m a y c o n ti n u e . Page 83 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: M a y b e j u s t t o g e t th e s tr u c tu r e a s h e a d o f n e w s w h o r e p o r ts t o y o u ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : It ’s t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r f o r t e l e v is io n n e w s , G e n e r a l M a n a g e r fo r r a d i o n e w s , G e n e r a l M a n a g e r f o r s tr a t e g ic p l a n n in g fo r t h e d i v is i o n a n d th e r e ’s a n o t h e r G e n e r a l M a n a g e r fo r s p e c i a l p r o je c t s , t h o s e a r e th e f o u r p e o p le t h a t r e p o r t d ir e c t ly to m e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u a n d w h a t is y o u r r o l e th e n a s head of news? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : 10 My r o le i s t o p r o v i d e le a d e r s h i p o v e r s ig h t i n t e r m s o f s tr a t e g y, i n t e r m s o f o p e r a ti o n s a n d in t e r m s o f e d i to r i a l r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , s o t h e n l e t’s g o b a c k t o w h a t y o u t h e n f o u n d a n d th e n y o u w il l te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t w h a t y o u fo u n d a n d h o w e a s y i t w a s o r d i ffi c u l t i t w a s fo r y o u t h e n t o i m p le m e n t t h e m a n d a t e th a t y o u b e li e v e y o u h a v e in t e r m s o f y o u r o b l ig a ti o n a s h e a d of news? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : It ’s ju s t s ta r t i n g w i t h t h e f u n c ti o n s w i t h i n th e d i v is i o n i ts e l f , i t p r o v i d e s n e w s c o n te n t to 1 9 r a d io s ta t io n s a n d th r e e fr e e t o a ir t e le v is i o n c h a n n e l s S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 a n d th e 20 d e d ic a t e d c h a n n e l w h ic h i s 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l S A B C n e w s c h a n n e l a n d [ in d is ti n c t ] p l a t fo r ms . S o t h a t ’s t h e s e r v ic e th a t w e p r o v i d e a c r o s s a l l th e p la t f o r m s a s t h e n e w s d i v is i o n a n d in a d d i t io n t o th a t w e h a v e , w h a t h a s b e e n r e fe r r e d t o h e r e b e fo r e , t h e r a d i o s ta t io n i n th e N o r t h e r n Cape, XKFM w h ic h serves the two c o m m u n it i e s there and the la n g u a g e s th a t w e s e r v e i t’s [i n d is t in c t ] s o w e p r o v i d e n e w s c o n t e n t Page 84 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t h e r e in c u r r e n t a ff a i r s . S o a s p a r t o f th e w o r k t h a t w e d o g e t ti n g i n t o t h a t e n v ir o n m e n t I fo u n d d e c a y … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u f o u n d ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : newsroom. D e c a y, s e r i o u s s ta t e o f d e c a y i n t h e The newsroom was subdued but you could sense that the k in d o f e q u i li b r i u m t h a t c o m p a n ie s w o u ld b e h o p i n g f o r is n o t t h e k in d o f e q u il ib r i u m t h a t I f o u n d t h e r e , i t w a s s o m e t h i n g e l s e . There was s o m e t h i n g b u b b l in g u n d e r n e a t h e v e n t h o u g h i t lo o k e d l ik e t h i n g s w e r e normal. 10 T h e n e w s r o o m w a s o n a u t o p i lo t e v e n t h o u g h th e r e w e r e m a n a g e r s i n t h e s y s t e m w h o w a s s u p p o s e d to t a k e r e s p o n s i b ili t y i n t e r m s o f g iv in g d ir e c t io n s a n d t h e n a t u r e o f t h e l e a d e r s h i p t h a t e x i s te d d i d n o t a s s is t t h e o r g a n i s a t io n t o d o w h a t it w a s m e a n t t o d o a n d i t i s o ft e n s a i d t h a t a n y c o n tr ib u ti o n b y m a n a g e r s , t h a t d o e s n o t a s s is t to i m p a c t th e c a p a c i t y o f t h e o r g a n is a t i o n t o d e li v e r, t o a c h i e v e i t’s r e s u l ts a n d to a tt a in i t ’s o b j e c ti v e s , it ’s n o t s u p p o s e d to b e t h e r e , b u t th a t ’s e x a c tl y w h a t e x is t e d i n th a t e n v ir o n m e n t a n d t h is is w h e r e f a i lu r e o f h u m a n r e s o u r c e p r o c e s s e s , i t ’s a f a il u r e o f l e a d e r s h ip , t h e f a c t t h a t i t w a s a ll o w e d t o h a p p e n . S o th is i s th e e n v i r o n m e n t th a t I f o u n d a n d a ls o t h e f a c t th a t y o u h a d p e o p le w h o w e r e l e a d i n g o r w e r e s u p p o s e d to 20 le a d t h e n e w s r o o m w h o w e r e n o t tr u s t e d b y j o u r n a lis t s w i t h i n th e n e w s r o o m , w h a t’s t h e p r o b l e m ? T h o s e p e o p le h a d n o l e g i ti m a c y a n d t h e y d i d n o t c o m m a n d a n y a u t h o r i ty t o b e r e s p e c t e d b y t h e jo u r n a l is ts w i t h i n t h e n e w s r o o m b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a s s o c ia t e d w i t h a p e r io d w h e r e things happened that were not supposed to be happening in a newsroom. W i t h t h e s e r i o u s e d i t o r i a l d r i f ts th a t h a p p e n e d d u r in g t h a t Page 85 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 period. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e l a c k o f tr u s t b y t h e j o u r n a li s ts in t h a t le a d e r s h i p w a s n ’ t n e c e s s a r i ly b e c a u s e t h e l e a d e r s h i p d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e r ig h t q u a li f ic a t i o n s b u t i t w a s b e c a u s e o f w h a t t h e l e a d e r s h i p w a s p e r c e iv e d t o b e a s s o c i a te d w i t h i n te r m s o f w h a t h a d b e e n h a p p e n i n g o r was it both? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : I t w a s a t o x i c c o m b in a ti o n o f b o t h a n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t w h a t y o u w o u l d s e e a t t h e p o i n t I w a s j o in in g t h e o r g a n i s a t io n t h e r e w e r e s e r i o u s p r o b l e ms in t e r m s o f d e c is i o n m a k i n g 10 b e c a u s e t h e jo u r n a l is ts w i th in th e n e w s r o o m w e r e u s e d t o b e i n g g iv e n in s t r u c t i o n s a n d th e y w o u ld h a v e t o w a i t t o b e t o l d w h a t t o d o b e c a u s e p r e v i o u s ly w h a te v e r t h e y t r i e d t o d o i n te r m o f j o u r n a lis t ic p r a c t ic e w a s c h a n g e d , e i th e r a t th e p o i n t o f b r o a d c a s t i n g o r a t t h e p o in t w h e r e th e c o n te n t w a s b e in g p r o d u c e d a n d th e r e f o r e t h e y h a d t o w a i t t o b e g iv e n in s t r u c t i o n s t o b e a b l e t o d o w h a t th e y w e r e m e a n t to d o . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C a n y o u j u s t ta lk a b o u t th a t s t r u c t u r e – t h e r e p o r ti n g s tr u c t u r e a t t h a t ti m e b e c a u s e I b e li e v e t h e r e w a s a p o i n t w h e r e j o u r n a l is ts i f t h e y h a d t o r e f e r a n y th in g u p w a r d t h e y h a d t o g o t o t h e C O O a t t h e t i m e a n d I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s ta n d n o w, c u r r e n t ly w h a t 20 a r e th e r e p o r ti n g l in e s . I f I ’ m a j o u r n a lis t a n d I h a v e a s t o r y t o t e l l a n d I b e l ie v e , th e r e ’s s o m e f o r m o f c r i mi n a l i ty a n d I n e e d t o r u n th is b y m y s u p e r i o r s w h o w o u ld t h a t jo u r n a l is t g o to ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : O r d in a r il y th e r e p o r t i n g li n e s a r e s u c h t h a t y o u w i ll s t a r t w it h y o u r e d i t o r s , y o u r l in e m a n a g e r a n d if t h e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g e l s e t h a t n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i t h t h a t c a n n o t b e d e a l t w i th a t Page 86 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t h a t l e v e l i t g e ts e s c a la t e d t o t h e n e x t l e v e l a n d a t a p o i n t w h e r e i t g e ts t o m e , I th e n tr y a n d d e a l w i t h w h a t e v e r h a s b e e n r a is e d a n d if I f e e l t h a t t h e r e ’s a p o in t t h a t I n e e d to r a is e , t h a t w o u ld g o s tr a i g h t t o t h e E d it o r C h ie f , w h i c h is t h e c u r r e n t G r o u p E x e c u t iv e , th e c u r r e n t G r o u p CEO. A t t h e p o i n t I w a s j o in in g t h e S A B C t h a t h a d b e e n r e s t o r e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a s t a g e w h e n t h e r e p o r ti n g l i n e s w e r e c h a n g e d fo r t h e G r o u p E x e c u ti v e o f N e w s a n d t h a t p e r s o n w a s s u p p o s e d to r e p o r t t o t h e C O O i n s te a d o f t h e C E O b u t w h e n I j o i n e d i t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n t a k e n b a c k to t h e [ in d is ti n c t ] . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s y o u m a y c o n ti n u e , y o u w e r e s til l h i g h l ig h ti n g t h o s e … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s o r r y M i s s N o r m a n , m a y b e i t m ig h t h e l p t o g iv e u s a p i c t u r e o f th e s tr u c tu r e i n th e – I d o n ’ t k n o w i f n e w s r o o m i s th e r ig h t w o r d , t o s a y t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e t h e jo u r n a l is ts i n t h e fi e l d a n d t h e n th e n e x t l e v e l b e f o r e i t c o m e s t o y o u s o o n e h a s a s e n s e o f th e v a r io u s le v e ls . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Th e c u r r e n t s e t u p is th a t y o u h a v e jo u r n a li s ts t h a t r e p o r t to – i f y o u a r e d e a l in g w i t h g e n e r a l n e w s y o u r e p o r t d ir e c tl y t o t h e N a t io n a l A s s i g n m e n t s E d i t o r, if y o u r e p o r t to t h e 20 s p e c i a lis t d e s k s , y o u w o u ld b e r e p o r ti n g t o y o u r E d it o r e i t h e r y o u r e c o n o m ic s E d i t o r o r y o u r f o r e i g n E d i t o r o r y o u r s p o r ts E d i t o r o r y o u r p o li t ic s E d i to r a n d w e a l s o h a v e E d i t o r s i n t h e r e g i o n s t h a t w e c a l l R e g io n a l E d i t o r s t h e t e n o ffic e s th a t w e h a v e a c r o s s th e c o u n tr y, i t’s n i n e p l u s t e n w h ic h is o u r P r e t o r ia o ff ic e t h a t i t’s o w n R e g i o n a l E d it o r. S o i n th a t e n v ir o n m e n t th e R e g i o n a l E d i t o r s w o u l d r e p o r t to o n e o f th e Page 87 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 g e n e r a l m a n a g e r s w h ic h i s r a d io n e w s h e a d a n d t h e s p e c i a l is t d e s k s E d it o r s w o u l d b e r e p o r t i n g to y o u r T V n e w h e a d a n d t h e c u r r e n t a ff a i r s E d it o r w h o d e a l s w i t h t h e l o n g f o r m c o n t e n t t h a t S A B C p r o d u c e s a ls o r e p o r t s t o o n e o f t h e t w o , e i th e r y o u r te l e v is io n o r y o u r r a d i o h e a d a n d t h e d i g i t a l n e w s E d it o r r e p o r t s t o t h e t e l e v i s i o n n e w s E d i t o r a n d it ’s t h e s e h e a d s o f t h e u n i ts t h a t r e p o r t d ir e c t ly t o m e a n d th e n I r e p o r t t o t h e C O O in t e r m s o f m y o p e r a t i o n a l r e s p o n s i b il it i e s a n d fo r [ in d is ti n c t ] e d i to r i a l ly I r e p o r t to t h e G C O . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Okay thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u s ti ll c o n t i n u in g w i t h t h e e n v ir o n m e n t o t h e r m a t t e r s t h a t y o u w a n t t o h i g h l ig h t w h e n y o u a r r i v e d at the SABC? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : Where I make reference to the le a d e r s h i p n o t b e i n g t r u s t e d a n d h a v in g n o l e g i ti m a c y I m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o l a c k o f s e n s e o f o w n e r s h i p in t h e n e w s r o o m . S o i n a n e n v i r o n m e n t w h e r e y o u h a v e b r e a k in g n e w s s to r i e s o n a f r e q u e n t b a s i s i t w a s n ’ t c le a r w h o w a s s u p p o s e d to d i r e c t t h e p r o c e s s b e c a u s e p e o p l e w e r e w a lk in g o n e g g s h e lls . N o - o n e w a n ts t o m a k e a d e c is io n b e c a u s e it ’s n o t – n o - o n e is s u r e i f I t a k e t h i s d e c i s i o n e s p e c i a l ly o n p o l it ic a l s to r i e s 20 y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e th e r y o u a r e d o i n g t h e r i g h t th i n g o r y o u w i ll b e r e p r i m a n d e d fo r m a k i n g t h e d e c is i o n s y o u m a k e . S o a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t t h e r e w a s a s e r i o u s l a c k o f o w n e r s h i p , la c k o f o w n e r s h i p in t h e n e w s r o o m a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t e n v ir o n m e n t. CHAIRPERSON: W a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o r y o u r s e n s e w h e n y o u a r r iv e d th a t f o r a l o n g ti m e jo u r n a l is ts m a y h a d d e c is io n s t h a t t h e y Page 88 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 n e e d e d t o m a k e t h e ms e l v e s , p r o f e s s io n a l ly i n te r f e r e d w it h b y p e o p l e w h o h a d n o b u s in e s s i n t e r fe r i n g w i th t h e m t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y m a y h a v e h a d t o m a k e a d e c is io n , i f I w a n t t o c o n ti n u e w o r k i n g h e r e I m u s t f o r g e t a b o u t tr y i n g to d o w h a t I b e li e v e I ’ m s u p p o s e d t o d o b e c a u s e I w i ll b e - s o m e b o d y w i ll o v e r r id e w h a t I a m s a y i n g a n d t h e r e f o r e I m u s t ju s t w a i t f o r th e m t o t e l l m e a n d th e n I’ ll d o w h a t t h e y t e ll m e b e c a u s e t h a t ’s t h e o n ly w a y I c a n c o n t i n u e to b e h e r e ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : T h e r e w a s a s tr o n g s e n s e o f th a t i n t h e s y s te m a n d y o u w o u l d b e ta lk in g to j o u r n a li s t s a n d t h e y w o u l d b e 10 t e ll i n g y o u t h a t t h e r e w e r e ti m e s w h e n y o u ’d b e s i t ti n g a s a p r o d u c e r i n t h e n e w s r o o m – n o i n th e c o n tr o l r o o m w h i c h i s m o r e lik e o u r c o c k p i t i f y o u th in k a b o u t a p l a n e a n d th e s e a r e th e p e o p l e w h o a r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t a k in g n e w s c o n t e n t t o a ir, w h ic h i s y o u r b r o a d c a s t , y o u r li v e broadcast. S o y o u a r e s it t in g th e r e a s a p r o d u c e r a n d t h e n c o m e s a c a l l , o r d i n a r i ly c a l ls t h a t g o t o th e c o n tr o l r o o m a r e c a ll s w i th i n th e s y s te m i n t h e n e w s r o o m i t ’s e i t h e r t h e p e r s o n w h o ’s s i t in g in t h e n e w s r o o m w h o ’s t e l li n g y o u th a t t h e r e ’s a n u p d a te o n a s c r i p t o r s o m e t h i n g e l s e h a s b e e n a d d e d t o t h e b u ll e ti n b u t t h e s e w o u ld b e c a lls fr o m e x t e r n a l p a r t ie s , t e ll in g th e p r o d u c e r s n o t t o p u t c e r t a i n c o n te n t o n 20 a ir o r to c h a n g e s t o r e s th a t a r e c u r r e n tl y r u n n in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : A n d t h a t i s i n a w o r ld w h e r e t h i n g s a r e o r g a n i s e d t h a t w o u l d n ’ t h a p p e n b e c a u s e t h a t p e r s o n , w h o e v e r c a l le d , i f I w e r e t o c a ll f r o m o u t s i d e d ir e c tl y i n t o th e p r o d u c t i o n r o o m o r w h a t e v e r y o u c a l l it , s o th a t is n o t n o r m a l b e c a u s e I s h o u l d , a t l e a s t b e c a l li n g Page 89 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 y o u o r c a ll in g a j o u r n a l is t o r c a l li n g a n E d i t o r b u t n o t y o u r p r o d u c e r s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I t ’s v e r y a b n o r m a l t o h a v e e x t e r n a l p a r t i e s h a v i n g a c c e s s t o t h e c o n tr o l r o o m ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Yo u r r e f e r e n c e t o e x t e r n a l, i s th a t a r e f e r e n c e t o e x t e r n a l to t h e c o n tr o l r o o m b u t i n i n t e r n a l w i t h i n t h e S A B C o r e x t e r n a l to SABC or both? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: 10 Both. S o p e o p le fr o m o u ts id e t h e S A B C c o u ld ju s t p h o n e t h r o u g h to t h e c o n tr o l r o o m a n d s a y, d o n ’ t d o th is , d o n ’ t d o t h a t o r d o that? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s c o r r e c t . A n d s o m e t i m e s p e o p l e w i th i n S A B C b u t w h o s h o u l d n o t r e a l ly b e g iv e n i n s tr u c t io n s t o t h e c o n tr o l r o o m w o u ld d o t h a t ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s t h e y w o u l d b e g i v i n g in s t r u c t i o n s t o t h e n e w s r o o m a n d y e t th e e d i to r i a l p r e r o g a ti v e r e s i d e s w i t h t h e newsroom. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d o f c o u r s e , c e r t a i n l y t h o s e w i t h i n th e S A B C w o u ld b e k n o w i n g w h a t th e r i g h t th in g i s , t h e y w il l b e k n o w i n g t h e 20 p o li c y ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . And they’d be going against it in full knowledge of what it is? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Correct. A n d I t h in k y o u ’ v e c o v e r e d u p t o p a g e Page 90 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 8 8 , I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r I’v e l e f t o u t a n y t h i n g t h e r e , p la y i n g s a f e a n d a l l t h a t , I t h in k p a g e 8 .9 y o u ’r e d e a li n g w i t h n o c l e a r li n e s o f c o m m a n d t o j o u r n a l is ts a t p a g e 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: D o e s 8 . 9 l o o k l ik e – i t’s t w o s e n t e n c e s p u t t o g e t h e r w i t h o u t a f u ll s t o p , n o c l e a r li n e s o f c o m m a n d a s j o u r n a l is ts o n a n d o ff the fi e l d w e r e g e t t in g i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m e v e r y w h e r e , i n te r n a l a n d e x t e r n a l, i t’s t h e p o i n t y o u h a v e j u s t m a d e h e y ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t t h a t ’s w h a t I ’v e ju s t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s s o th e r e w e r e n o c le a r l in e s o f c o m m a n d f o r jo u r n a li s ts , t h a t’s o n e . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Th e s e c o n d is j o u r n a l is ts w e r e g e t t in g i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m e v e r y w h e r e in t e r n a l a n d e x te r n a l ly ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . Ye s o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C o u l d y o u j u s t d e a l w i th w h a t y o u d e a l w i t h y o u r o v e r a ll a s s e s s m e n t o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h b a t te r e d n e w s b r a n d w i t h 20 n o c r e d i b i li ty, t h i s i s s o m e t h i n g th a t o n e o f t h e w i tn e s s e s f o r t h e S A B C o n c e d e a l t w i th , h o w d o e s n e w s l o s e c r e d i b i li ty ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: C r e d i b i l it y w i t h a u d ie n c e s a n d w it h c i tiz e n s i n t h is c a s e b e c a u s e th a t ’s o u r p r i m a r y s t a k e h o ld e r a s a n e w s s e r v ic e , i t ’s la c k o f tr u s t in o u r c o n te n t a n d w i t h a ll t h a t h a s b e e n r e p o r t e d a b o u t t h e S A B C t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s t h a t w e r e g iv e n a b o u t s o m e Page 91 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 c o t to n e d c o n t e n t o r c e r ta i n v is u a ls t h a t w e r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e s h o w n f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n w a s g i v e n a t th a t t i m e , a ll o f t h a t g o e s a g a i n s t S A B C ’s e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y b e c a u s e w e ’r e s u p p o s e d to r e p o r t tr u th f u l ly a n d w e ’ r e s u p p o s e d t o r e fl e c t o u r c o n t e n t w i t h a c c u r a c y a n d p a r t o f t h a t o b l ig e s u s n o t t o c o n c e a l i n fo r m a t io n t h a t w e ’r e a w a r e o f a s jo u r n a li s ts . S o t h e i s s u e o f c r e d i b il i ty c o m e s w i t h a l o t o f th a t a n d a d h e r e n c e to j o u r n a lis m e th ic s w h ic h w e r e v i o l a te d in th is c a s e . So w h e r e y o u d o n ’ t h a v e tr a n s p a r e n c y a n d y o u r c o n te n t c a n ’t b e tr u s t e d y o u r c r e d i b i li ty g o e s . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n a t p a g e f iv e y o u d e a l n o w w i t h t h e p o li c y e n v ir o n m e n t , y o u ’ v e t o u c h e d u p o n t h e e d i to r i a l p o li c y b u t j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h o w … [i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: B u t m a y b e b e fo r e t h a t s h e – I t h i n k s h e m a k e s th e p o i n t – y o u m a k e th e p o i n t th a t t h e s i t u a t io n w a s s o b a d t h a t j o u r n a l is ts w e r e a c t u a ll y a fr a i d to d i s c lo s e w h o t h e y w o r k e d f o r i s t h a t r i g h t ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Ye s t h a t’s a s e n s e o f s h a m e p e o p le h a d w o r k i n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t’s h o w b a d i t w a s ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Correct. Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u , c o u l d y o u t h e n d e a l w i t h w h a t y o u d e a l w i t h a t p a g e f iv e , t h e p o l ic y e n v ir o n m e n t . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: L e t m e s ta r t b y m a k in g r e fe r e n c e to t h e E d it o r ia l P o l ic y i t s e l f a n d th e m a n d a t e o f t h e S A B C n e w s r o o m . We e x i s t, p r i m a r i ly f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f th e c it iz e n s o f th e c o u n tr y, o u r w o r k Page 92 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t a lk s t o th e ir n e e d s i n t e r m s o f i n f o r m a t i o n a n d n e w s c o n t e n t a n d w h e n I c a m e i n I c o u l d n ’ t f i n d a s e n s e th a t th e p u r p o s e o f o u r e x is t e n c e h a d in fl u e n c e i n t h e d e c is io n s t h a t w e w e r e m a k i n g a s a n e w s r o o m a n d y o u c o u l d n ’ t fi n d a s e n s e t h a t a s t h e s to r i e s w e r e b e in g d i s c u s s e d i n [i n d is t in c t] s e s s io n s there was reference to why we needed to do the s t o r ie s th a t w e w e r e d o i n g a n d t h e tr a n s g r e s s i o n s th a t w e r e i n t h e s y s te m s e d i t o r i a lly w e r e b e c a u s e th e r e i s n o s y s t e m t h a t h o l d s a n y o n e to account for such. Yo u k n o w t h a t t h e E d i t o r ia l P o l ic y e x i s ts , y o u k n o w th a t w e a r e v i o l a ti n g i t, b u t t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g t h a t s a y s s h o u ld y o u 10 tr a n s g r e s s t h i s i s w h a t ’s g o i n g to h a p p e n t o y o u o r t h e s e a r e t h e s t e p s t h a t y o u h a v e to g o t h r o u g h . Th e r e ’s n o t h i n g s p e c i fic t o t h a t e ff e c t . CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e ’s n o m e c h a n is m ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: There was no mechanism to hold anyone t o a c c o u n t o r t o a s s u r e a n d e n s u r e a d h e r e n c e t o th e p o li c y. CHAIRPERSON: D o e s s a y i n g th e r e w a s n o m e c h a n is m i n c lu d e s a y in g y o u c o u l d n ’ t g o t o a n y b o d y w h o , in t e r m s o f t h e p o li c y, w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e i n f o r m e d if th e r e w e r e tr a n s g r e s s io n s a n d t h a t p e r s o n w a s g iv e n p o w e r t o t a k e a c ti o n , d o e s it in c l u d e s a y i n g t h a t o r t h e r e w o u ld a l w a y s b e s o m e b o d y to g o t o b u t w h e th e r a n y t h i n g c o u l d b e d o n e 20 m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g e ls e ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : It ’s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s s p o k e n o f c a s u a l ly b u t th e r e w a s n e v e r a n y a c t i o n t a k e n f o r t h i n g s th a t a r e k n o w n t o b e a g a i n s t th e S A B C E d i t o r ia l P o l ic y. CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e l e v e l o f s e n io r i ty o f th e tr a n s g r e s s o r s i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n o r is th a t s i m p ly b e c a u s e th e r e i s n o Page 93 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 – there was no mechanism. So I mean sometimes if you reach a c e r t a i n l e v e l y o u m i g h t s a y, w e ll t h e r e is n o b o d y t o r e p o r t s o a n d s o t o , is t h a t t h e k in d o f s it u a ti o n o r is t h e s i t u a t io n th a t t h e r e m i g h t h a v e b e e n s o m e b o d y to r e p o r t t o b u t m a y b e th e j o u r n a lis t k n e w t h a t it w o u ld n ’t b r in g a n y r e s u l ts b e c a u s e th a t p e r s o n w a s h i m s e l f o r h e r s e l f c o m p r o m is e d a n d w a s n o t tr u s t e d a s a p e r s o n th a t c o u l d e n fo r c e th e p o li c y, o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u n e v e r g o t t o u n d e r s ta n d w h e t h e r i t w a s a p p l ic a b l e ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : 10 There were people who were supposed t o h o l d p e o p l e t o a c c o u n t fo r tr a n s g r e s s i o n s b u t it w a s n o t h a p p e n i n g . S o m e t i m e s i t ’s b e c a u s e th e y w e r e n o t t h e m s e lv e s a w a r e t h a t th is w a s a tr a n s g r e s s i o n b e c a u s e t h i s i s w h a t I f o u n d i n t h e n e w s r o o m t h a t i n t h e E d it o r ia l P o li c y t h a t w e a r e s u p p o s e d t o a d h e r e t o a s j o u r n a li s t s w i t h i n t h e n e w s d i v is io n , i t ’s s o m e th i n g th a t w e n e v e r t o o k ti m e to u n d e r s t a n d a n d h o w i t r e l a te s t o t h e d a i ly d e c is io n m a k i n g t h a t w e g e t i n v o lv e d i n as editors. So the people who were there who were supposed to hold t h e p e o p le t o a c c o u n t w e r e e i t h e r n o t fu ll y k n o w l e d g e a b l e a b o u t w h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e o r w h e n t h e is s u e s w e r e r a is e d w i th th e m , th e y d i d n o t h i n g a b o u t it . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u , a n d t h e n e x t p o in t y o u m a k e in p a r a g r a p h 1 3 th a t th e r e w a s n o w a y o f m e a s u r in g t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f t h e e m p l o y e e s o f t h e S A B C a n d c o u ld y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t th a t a n d w h y y o u f e lt i t w a s a n e c e s s a r y p o i n t t o m a k e a n d t o p e r h a p s p u t m e a s u r e s to m a k e s u r e t h a t i t h a p p e n e d ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : The issue of performance management Page 94 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 it ’s a – t h i s is h o w y o u a s s e s s t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f y o u r s ta ff , w h e n y o u r e a l is e t h a t t h e r e a r e g a p s in t h e ir s k il ls o r w h a t t h e y a r e r e q u i r e d to k n o w t o d o t h e j o b y o u p r o v i d e i n t e r v e n ti o n s b u t th e f a c t th a t th e p e r f o r m a n c e m a n a g e m e n t s y s t e m d o e s n o t e x is t is a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t a b l e to a s s is t s ta ff t h a t ’s m e a n t t o b e a s s i s t e d b e c a u s e y o u d o n ’t e v e n k n o w w h a t th e y d o n ’ t k n o w s o y o u c a n ’ t p r o v i d e t h e k i n d o f s u p p o r t t h a t ’s r e q u ir e d e v e n w h e n y o u c a n s e e t h a t th e r e a r e g l a r i n g g a p s i n t h e p e r f o r m a n c e b u t t h e r e is n o t h i n g y o u c a n d o b e c a u s e i t ’s n o t s y s t e m a ti c a ll y r e c o r d e d , y o u h a v e n o w a y o f s a y i n g , b a s e d o n A , B , 10 C a n d D I a m a b le t o p r o v i d e t h e s u p p o r t b e c a u s e I h a v e s e e n t h e g a p s a n d th e y a r e v is i b l e i n t h e p e r fo r m a n c e o f t h e e m p l o y e e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d is th a t l in k e d to t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u m a k e t h a t th e r e w a s t h e n n o p r o d u c t iv i t y m o n i t o r in g b e c a u s e y o u d o n ’t k n o w h o w th e p e r f o r m a n c e is m e a s u r e d , y o u d o n ’t k n o w w h a t y o u r e m p l o y e e a r e d o i n g , i t s d i ffic u lt t o e v e n m e a s u r e p r o d u c t iv it y l e v e ls ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : I t ’s n o t o n ly a b o u t i n d iv i d u a l p r o d u c ti v i ty, it ’s a ls o l in k e d to th e q u a n t i ty th a t ’s r e q u ir e d f o r a ll o u r s y s te m s o n a n y d a y. S o i f y o u h a v e j o u r n a l is ts t h a t a r e s i t ti n g i n p r o v in c e s y o u s h o u ld k n o w t h a t fo r t w o jo u r n a l is ts th a t a r e o n d u ty to d a y o r l e t ’s s a y t h i s 20 w e e k i f y o u ’r e g o i n g t o t a k e i t o v e r s e v e n d a y s , t h is is th e l e v e l o f p r o d u c t iv i t y th a t w e e x p e c t fr o m t h e s e jo u r n a li s t s fo r th e n e x t s e v e n days. Yo u a r e n o t a b le to d o th a t b e c a u s e th e r e is n o m o n i t o r i n g m e c h a n is m a n d a s a r e s u l t w e e n d u p w i t h c o n t e n t s li p p a g e s i n t h e s y s te m b e c a u s e th e r e a r e s to r i e s th a t g e t g a t h e r e d fr o m a l l o v e r t h e c o u n tr y th a t n e v e r g e t b r o a d c a s t b e c a u s e n o - o n e k n o w s w h e r e a r e t h e y Page 95 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 – w h e r e t h e s t o r i e s a r e s i tt i n g a s th e y c o m e f r o m t h e p r o v i n c e s a n d n o o n e tr a c k s t h a t w h e n t h e y l a n d i n A u c k l a n d P a r k th is i s t h e p r o c e s s t o b e fo ll o w e d t h e s e s t o r i e s a r e g o i n g t o S A B C 1 , t h e s e s t o r i e s a r e g o in g t o S A B C 2 o r t h e s e s t o r ie s a r e g o i n g t o S A B C 3 d e p e n d i n g o n th e la n g u a g e s th a t a r e r e q u ir i n g t h e c o n t e n t a n d t h e s e s t o r ie s a r e g o i n g t o b e o n o u r r a d i o s t a ti o n s d e p e n d i n g o n t h e l a n g u a g e r e q u ir e m e n ts a s w e ll o r th e s e s t o r i e s a r e g o i n g t o b e r e s id i n g o n d ig i ta l o n ly b e c a u s e i n t h e w a y t h e y a r e – t h e y h a v e b e e n g a t h e r e d t h e y a r e m o s tl y s u i te d t o t h a t p la t f o r m b u t th e r e ’s a ls o c o n te n t t h a t ’s g o i n g t o c o m e fr o m r a d io 10 a n d T V t h a t g o e s o n l i n e . S o t h e r e is n o m o n i t o r in g o f t h a t s e n s e s o i t a ffe c ts th e e n ti r e s y s t e m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and you deal again with s o m e t h i n g t h a t , I t h in k th e n e x t w it n e s s is g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h a l s o r e l a ti n g t o r e c r u i t m e n t a n d r e m u n e r a ti o n o f f r e e l a n c e s b u t c a n y o u j u s t t a lk t o t h a t, w h y i s i t a p r o b l e m i f it is a p r o b l e m ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : Th e p r o b l e m w i t h n o t h a v i n g a fi l te r i n g r e c r u it m e n t m e c h a n is m f o r f r e e la n c e s is t h a t – s o y o u g e t t o s e e E d it o r s o r E x e c u t iv e P r o d u c e r s t h a t b r i n g p e o p l e i n t o t h e s y s t e m b e c a u s e th e y tr u s t t h e m t h e y ’v e m e t t h e m e l s e w h e r e o r t h e y ’v e s e e n 20 t h e m d o in g w o r k b u t w h e n t h e y g e t in t o t h e s y s te m t h e r e a r e n o c h e c k s a s t o w h e t h e r t h e s e p e o p l e a r e e v e n q u a l i fi e d f o r t h e r o l e s t h e y g e t t o fi ll . T h e s e p e o p le a r e e x p e c t e d t o p e r f o r m t o t h e s a m e s ta n d a r d s a s permanent e m p lo y e e s and therefore you expect some fi l te r i n g m e c h a n is m t o g e t th e m i n to t h e s y s t e m , e i t h e r t h r o u g h q u a li f ic a t i o n s , a l l t h e c h e c k s t h a t w e d o f o r p e r m a n e n t e m p lo y e e s , th e y d o n ’t e x is t f o r Page 96 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 o u r fr e e l a n c e r s . S o t h e y g e t in t o t h e s y s t e m i n a d i ff e r e n t w a y b u t li n k e d t o t h a t, t h e w a y th e y a r e r e m u n e r a t e d i s a ls o n o t s i m i l a r t o th e w a y th e y g e t i n t o t h e s y s te m i s a ls o n o t li n k e d t o a n y m e c h a n is m a s t o t h e g r a d i n g o f t h e ir p a y m e n ts a s i n , t h is o n e is a t e n tr y le v e l , t h is o n e is a t p r o fe s s io n a l , t h is o n e is a t e x p e r t i s e l e v e l , t h e r e ’s n o s u c h s o t h e r e ’s a s u b j e c tiv e p r o c e s s in h o w t h e s e p e o p l e a r e p a i d . fi n d a p e r s o n w h o So you’d p e r f o r m s a t e n t r y l e v e l e a r n in g v e r y h i g h a n d a p e r s o n w h o ’s p e r f o r m i n g a t v e r y h ig h s t a n d a r d e a r n in g v e r y l o w b e c a u s e i t ’s a s u b j e c tiv e p r o c e s s a n d i t d e p e n d s o n w h o b r o u g h t y o u 10 there. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u a n d th e n y o u d e a l w i th th e in v i ta t io n s o f E d it o r s a n d j o u r n a lis t s b y G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a n d a g e n c ie s a n d y o u li s t t h e m , E m b a s s y ’s a n d b u s in e s s e s . W h a t is e x p e c te d o f a j o u r n a l is t i f a j o u r n a l is t g e ts a n i n v i ta t io n t h a t t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g h a p p e n i n g i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I’ v e l o s t y o u M is s N o r m a n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W e a r e o n p a g e s ix C h a i r s t a r ti n g fr o m t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h s ix o f 1 6 , p a g e fi v e i t g o e s o n t o p a g e s i x . A r e y o u t h e r e M is s M a g o p e n i? 20 M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s I a m . Th a n k y o u c o u ld y o u j u s t t a l k t o t h a t , i f a j o u r n a lis t g e ts a n d in v i t a t i o n t h a t w e ’ d l ik e y o u t o c o m e a n d c o v e r a w e d d i n g o r s o m e th i n g w h a t a r e t h e y e x p e c t e d t o d o o r m a y b e c o v e r a n o c c a s i o n a l e v e n t t h a t a p a r t ic u l a r d e p a r t m e n t is h o s t in g ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : I n a n o r m a l e n v ir o n m e n t s u c h i n v i t a ti o n s Page 97 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 s h o u l d c o m e s tr a ig h t t o E d i t o r s , t o th e c e n tr a l s y s t e m b e c a u s e i t i s in t h a t s y s t e m w h e r e w e a s s e s s t h e e d i t o r ia l v a l u e o f h o n o u r i n g t h is in v i ta t io n a n d h o w i t is g o i n g to a s s i s t u s t o s e r v e t h e p u b l ic b u t i n th e way th i n g s were h a p p e n in g , individual j o u r n a l is ts were g e t ti n g in v i ta t io n s a n d I ’ m e x p e c t e d to a p p r o v e th e s e i n v i t a ti o n s b e c a u s e th e y a r e s e n t t o t h e m a n d w h a t t h is m e a n s i s t h a t y o u c o u l d e a s i ly h a v e in fl u e n c e s t h a t a r e c o m i n g f r o m d i ff e r e n t d ir e c t io n s a n w i t h n o c o n tr o l t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e is n o i n te r f e r e n c e i n t h e w a y th e s e j o u r n a l is ts a r e in v i te d a n d n o t o n ly jo u r n a li s ts s o m e o f t h e in v i t a t i o n s g o s tr a i g h t t o 10 E d it o r s a n d th e d a n g e r w i th t h a t is t h a t i t w e a k e n s o u r e d it o r i a l c o n tr o ls b e c a u s e w e h a v e n o s a y in h o w th is j o u r n a li s t w a s h a n d p ic k e d b y either a department or an agency or an Embassy or any other structure t h a t is o u ts i d e t h e S A B C s y s t e m . S o t h is i s n o t a s t o r y th a t is a s s i g n e d fr o m w i t h i n w h e r e y o u w o u ld k n o w t h a t t h i s s t o r y n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i t h b y t h e e c o n o m i c s d e s k o r t h i s s t o r y n e e d s to b e d e a l t w i th t h e p o li ti c s d e s k . I t’s c o m i n g fr o m o u ts id e p r e s c r i b i n g w h o s h o u l d c o v e r i t a n d th is is w h e r e o u r p r o b l e m l ie s b e c a u s e th e d i ff e r e n t fo r m s o f i n t e r fe r e n c e c o m e th r o u g h th e s e i n v i ta t io n s w h ic h is n o t o n ly p o li t ic a l i n te r f e r e n c e , c o m m e r c ia l i n te r f e r e n c e a ls o c o m e s th r o u g h t h e s e i n v it a ti o n s . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o i f t h e j o u r n a l is t w a n ts t o m a k e m o r e m o n e y g e ts i n v i te d to a w e d d in g g o e s to c o v e r t h a t a n d m a k e s m o r e m o n e y fr o m t h a t , w h a t is w r o n g w i t h t h a t? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : I t g o e s a g a i n s t o u r e d i to r i a l s y s t e m a n d h e ’s in v i o l a ti o n o f j o u r n a li s t ic e th ic s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Page 98 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e t h e c h o i c e i s m a d e b y s o m e b o d y o u ts i d e t h e n e w s r o o m a n d c e r t a i n ly o u ts i d e t h e S A B C a n d t h a t p e r s o n c o u l d b e h a v i n g c e r t a i n i n te r e s t i n t h e s t o r y a n d m a y w e ll d o c e r ta i n t h i n g s t o t r y a n d g e t th e s t o r y to b e t o l d i n a c e r t a i n w a y, w h e r e a s i f th e y s i m p ly r e q u e s t t h a t a jo u r n a li s t b e s e n t a n d i t ’s t h e E d i to r o r w h o e v e r w i th i n t h e S A B C w h o c h o o s e s w h ic h j o u r n a l is t s h o u ld g o t h e r e , th e n t h e r e is le s s r o o m f o r a n y u n d u e i n fl u e n c e , is th a t r ig h t? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s , c o r r e c t s ir a n d in f a c t i n s o m e o f t h e c a s e s i t’s n o t o n l y a b o u t m a n a g i n g c o n tr o ls i t ’s a l s o to d o t h a t w e 10 h a v e j o u r n a lis t s w h o a r e s i t ti n g in p r o v in c e s w h o n e v e r g e t t h e s e o p p o r t u n i ti e s t o b e in v i t e d to t h e s e in t e r n a ti o n a l tr ip s . S o b y s a y i n g w e n e e d t o c e n tr a lis e th e s y s t e m i t’s a ls o t o o p e n u p t h e s y s t e m t o o t h e r p e o p l e w h o a r e s i tt i n g in o th e r p r o v i n c e s . S o w e w o u l d k n o w th a t s o a n d s o i s v e r y s tr o n g o n c o v e r i n g a r ts a n d c u l t u r e a n d p ic k t h a t p e r s o n fr o m a d i ff e r e n t p r o v i n c e a n d s a y, y o u s h o u l d ta k e t h i s tr i p i f i t c o m e s t h r o u g h o u r c e n t r a lis e d s y s t e m b u t i f a p e r s o n is h a n d p ic k e d fr o m o u t s i d e t h a t m a k e s o u r j o b d i ffi c u l t a n d i n f a c t w e h a v e s t a r t e d r e je c ti n g some of them. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Th a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u C h a ir I s e e t h a t it ’s t i m e f o r t h e lo n g a d j o u r n m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y w e ’ ll t a k e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’l l r e s u m e a t 2 o ’c lo c k , w e a d j o u r n . REGISTRAR: A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES Page 99 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h a n k y o u . M s M a g o p e n i w h e n w e a d jo u r n e d y o u w e r e s ti ll d e a l in g w i t h j o u r n a l is ts b u t t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u w a n t to a d d a b o u t j o u r n a li s t s a n d th e ir s a f e t y c u r r e n t ly. M a y b e i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u n e e d t o t a lk a b o u t i t i s s in c e w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t jo u r n a l is ts n o w a n d y o u c a n j u s t p u t t h a t in . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : S o m e o f t h e c h a l le n g e s t h a t o u r jo u r n a li s ts a r e f a c e d w i t h a r e n o t o n ly r e l a te d t o b e in g in t i m id a te d b y 10 p o li t ic i a n s o n t h e s to r i e s t h e y c o v e r. T h e y a ls o r e l a t e t o t h e p u b li c a n d h o w – a s i n y e s t e r d a y w e h a d o n e o f o u r v e h ic le s a t ta c k e d d u r i n g t h e p r o t e s t s i n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d t h e j o u r n a li s t w h o w a s c o v e r i n g a s to r y w a s a ls o a t t a c k e d . S o t h i s is a p r o b l e m f o r u s . But as far as the fi n a n c i a l s i tu a ti o n o f t h e S A B C a n d h o w i t a p p li e s t o th is c a s e . W h e n I jo in e d l a s t y e a r I a s k e d f o r h o s t il e e n v i r o n m e n t tr a in in g fo r o u r jo u r n a li s ts . That has not happened because we cannot provide that s e r v ic e . A n d p r o t e c tiv e g e a r b e c a u s e i t – it i s g o i n g t o h a p p e n o n e d a y t h a t o n e o f th e m g e ts e x p o s e d t o a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e I w o u l d b e f o u n d w a n ti n g w h e n I h a v e t o e x p la in w h a t h a p p e n e d . 20 S o th is i s a p r o b le m t h a t w e a r e f a c in g . S o i t is n o t o n ly t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y i n ti m i d a te d w h e n t h e y c o v e r s to r i e s i t is t h e f a c t t h a t w e e x p o s e t h e m t o r is k b y n o t o ffe r i n g t h e m th e r ig h t p r o t e c ti o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : In s u c h e n v i r o n m e n t s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n g o in g b a c k t o y o u r Page 100 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 s t a te m e n t p a g e 6 a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 . S o y o u s a y t h e m a t t e r s th a t y o u h i g h l ig h t t h e y a r e in n e e d o f – o f s tr e n g t h e n in g y o u m a k i n g s u r e t h a t y o u h a v e [i n d is t in c t] c o n t r o ls a n d y o u e n s u r e q u a li ty. M a y b e b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d o n t h e – a s t o h o w y o u a r e tr y i n g t o w h a te v e r i t is t h a t y o u h a v e h i g h l ig h t e d a s h a v i n g b e e n p r o b le m s h o w y o u a r e tr y in g to w o r k o n th o s e a n d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h o s e d o n o t h a p p e n b e fo r e y o u m o v e on to other processes and systems. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : What we have tried to do so far is s t a r ti n g t h e e d i t o r i a l is s u e s a n d j o u r n a lis t s a n d th e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e 10 n e w s r o o m . O n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d d e s p i t e t h e f a c t th a t y o u h a v e t h is c o m p l e x o p e r a ti o n a s S A B C N e w s t h a t p r o v id e s n e w s s e r v ic e s to a ll t h e s e p l a t f o r ms th e r e is n o f o r w a r d p la n n i n g e d i to r. A n d t h a t i s th e fir s t t h i n g th a t w e h a d t o a d d r e s s . T h a t t h e r e is a p e r s o n w h o h a s to a c c o u n t fo r f o r w a r d p l a n n i n g f o r t h a t a r e a . A n d t h i s d o e s not only apply to short range planning. We need to plan for long term e v e n t s . A n d t h a t m e a n s a ls o m a n a g in g t h e c o s ts o f o u r c o v e r a g e w h e n w e d e a l w i t h b ig e v e n ts . B e c a u s e y o u w o u ld b e a b l e t o b o o k y o u r a c c o m m o d a ti o n s i n a d v a n c e , b o o k y o u r t r a v e l fl ig h ts i n a d v a n c e a n d h ir e c a r s i n a d v a n c e i f y o u h a v e to tr a v e l t o C a p e To w n o r t o a n y o th e r 20 p l a c e t h a t is n o t J o h a n n e s b u r g . B u t b e c a u s e t h a t f o r w a r d p l a n n in g f u n c t i o n w a s n o t t h e r e s o i t h a s a l w a y s b e e n a p r o b le m b e c a u s e w e w a k e t o s to r i e s l i te r a ll y. Yo u w a k e u p t o a s t o r y t h a t y o u h a v e t o d e p lo y r e s o u r c e s t o w i t h o u t e v e n i n t e r r o g a t in g th e e d it o r ia l r a t i o n a l e f o r c o v e r i n g t h a t s t o r y. A n d t h e s e c o n d p a r t w a s a g a i n y o u l o o k a t th e s e r v ic e th a t w e a r e – w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o p r o v i d e to t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n Page 101 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 p u b lic in te r ms t h e ir n e w s a n d i n fo r m a ti o n n e e d s . Yo u h a v e a u d ie n c e s t h a t c o n s u m e t h e ir c o n t e n t in A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e s . T h e r e is n o A f r i c a n la n g u a g e s e d i t o r i n o u r n e w s r o o m a n d t h i s i s d e s p i t e t h e f a c t t h a t t h is is y o u r b i g g e s t a u d i e n c e a s S A B C n e w s . J u s t l o o k i n g a t T V a l o n e y o u r 7 p m b u l l e t i n o n a d a i ly b a s is i s g o i n g t o g i v e y o u m o r e t h a n th r e e m il li o n v i e w e r s b u t th e r e is n o d e d ic a t e d p e r s o n w h o l o o k s a t t h e n e e d s o f t h o s e a u d i e n c e s i n t e r m s o f c o n te n t . A n d y o u c a n a p p ly th is a c r o s s t h e l a n g u a g e s o n t e l e v is io n . And as a result of that lack you have a u d ie n c e s t h a t a r e b e i n g s e r v e d c o n t e n t t h a t is g e n e r a te d f o r E n g l is h 10 a u d ie n c e s . S o it is n o t t a i l o r m a d e a n d i t d o e s n o t t a lk t o t h e i r n e e d s a n d i t is n o t r e g i o n a l e n o u g h to a d d r e s s t h e n e e d s o f t h e a u d ie n c e s t h a t w e a r e ta lk i n g a b o u t . R a d io is d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e o u r r a d i o s ta t io n s a r e s p r e a d a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y. S o th e lo c a l f l a v o u r is r e f le c t e d i n t h e c o n te n t o f o u r r a d i o – o f o u r r a d i o f a c il i ti e s . B u t d i g it a l is s i m i la r t o T V. T h e r e is n o d e d ic a t e d p e r s o n w h o l o o k s a ft e r t h e n e e d s o f t h e p e o p l e w h o c o n s u m e t h e ir c o n te n t i n A f r i c a n l a n g u a g e s a n d th is i s a b i g p r o b le m f o r u s . T h e o th e r p a r t i s lo o k in g a t h o w t h e s y s t e m i s d e s i g n e d . W e h a d a s i t u a t io n a n d i n f a c t s ti ll e x i s ts b u t w e a r e i n th e p r o c e s s o f a d d r e s s i n g i t n o w. 20 W e h a v e a n e w s o p e r a t io n t h a t h a s m o r n in g b u ll e ti n s b u t t h e r e is n o o v e r n i g h t e d i t o r w h o l o o k s a t t h e c o n te n t th a t g e ts p r o d u c e d u n t il 1 2 m i d n i g h t a n d l o o k a t w h a t h a s n o t b e e n u s e d b u t t h a t w a s g e n e r a te d . A n d l o o k a t c o n t e n t t h a t i s n o t t i m e b o u n d th a t c o u l d s e r v e a s m o r n i n g s t o r i e s . Th a t d i d n o t e x is t . t h e s e a r e t h e t h in g s t h a t w e a r e tr y i n g t o a d d r e s s . So B u t a ls o w h e n I came in what we have is a 24 hour news channel, the SABC news Page 102 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 c h a n n e l h a d n o e d i t o r. L it e r a l ly a fr e e f o r a l l d e p e n d i n g o n w h o is a v a i la b le t o l e a d i t o r w h o is i n t e r e s t e d i n p u t t in g [ in d i s ti n c t ] . A n d y o u w o u ld h a v e p e o p le m o v i n g in a n d o u t a n d s h o u ti n g a t e x e c u t iv e p r o d u c e r s a s t o w h a t t h e y w a n t to s e e o n T V. S o t h is is th e e n v ir o n m e n t t h a t I f o u n d b u t w e a r e a ls o in th e p r o c e s s o f a d d r e s s i n g t h a t b e c a u s e w e a r e n o w o n l y h ir e a p e r s o n w h o is g o i n g t o b e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h a t a r e a . N o t t h a t w e w o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e i t e a r li e r b u t b e c a u s e o f th e s e v e r a l m o r a t o r i a t h a t h a v e b e e n i m p o s e d o n t h e S A B C a n d S A B C n e w s w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o f il l th o s e p o s i t io n s . 10 And a g a in t a lk i n g to t h e in a d e q u a c i e s t h a t w e h a v e h a d t o d e a l w i th i n t h e s y s te m j u s t b e f o r e e l e c ti o n s w e w e n t t o c o v e r in g e le c t i o n s w i t h e i g h t e e n r e p o r te r s o u t o f t h e s y s t e m a n d t h e s e a r e p e o p l e t h a t w e l o s t t o e i t h e r r e ti r e m e n t o r p e o p l e r e s i g n i n g , l o o k i n g f o r g r e e n e r p a s tu r e s o r p e o p l e w h o j u s t d e c id e d t h a t th e y n o l o n g e r w a n t t o b e w it h S A B C . S o w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b le t o f il l t h o s e r o le s . So the problems and the is s u e s a r e m u l ti f a c e te d s o i t is n o t o n e th i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d s a y th is is why you are here. I t i s a lo t o f p r o b le m s th a t h a v e b e e n a ll o w e d t o f e s te r i n t h e s y s t e m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d – t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n y o u d e a l 20 in p a r a g r a p h 1 9 w i t h c o o r d in a ti o n o f t h e w o r k o f t h e S A B C o r t h e n e w s d iv is io n . C o u l d y o u ju s t ta k e u s th r o u g h t h a t a s t o w h a t d o y o u m e a n b y th a t a n d h o w is t h a t g o i n g t o e n h a n c e t h e w o r k in g s o f t h e S A B C ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : W h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t c o o r d i n a ti o n y o u fir s t lo o k o u r m a n d a t e a s a n e w s d iv i s i o n . W e a r e s u p p o s e d to p r o v i d e c o n te n t th a t is u n tr a m m e l l e d t o t h e p u b li c w i th n o i n t e r fe r e n c e o f a n y Page 103 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 n a t u r e . S o y o u g e t i n to th is e n v ir o n m e n t w h e r e t h e r e a r e n o c o n tr o ls in p l a c e a n d I w a n t t o g o b a c k a b i t a n d t a lk t o t h e p o i n t w h e n I w a s jo in i n g th e S A B C . I g o t in t o t h e s y s t e m a s a j o u r n a li s t p r i m a r i ly a n d t h e s e c o n d p o i n t is t h a t I a m a b u s in e s s m a n a g e m e n t p r o f e s s i o n a l. P o li ti c s h a v e g o t n o t h in g t o d o w i th m e . I n e v e r s i g n e d u p fo r p o li t ic a l a c ti v is m w i t h i n th e n e w s d iv i s i o n o f t h e S A B C a n d I w a s n e v e r a s k e d t o le a d a p o l it ic a l b r a n c h w i th in t h e S A B C . So when we talk about the absence of processes 1 . Yo u lo o k a t th e f a c t th a t o v e r t h e y e a r s t h e f ir s t q u e s t io n w h e n 10 y o u c o m e i n i s t o a s k h o w d o e s t h is d iv i s i o n d o e s i ts w o r k ? H o w d o e s i t d o i ts w o r k a n d h o w f r o m t h e p o i n t o f s t o r y id e a ti o n to t h e p o i n t w h e r e t h e s t o r y g e t s t o a ir h o w d o y o u a c c o u n t f o r t h e p r o c e s s e s in b e t w e e n ? T h a t i s n o t d o c u m e n t e d . I f y o u w e r e a t a n y p o i n t t o w i p e o u t a d i v is io n y o u w o u l d h a v e to g o e ls e w h e r e to fi n d a w a y o f r e - e s ta b lis h in g i t b e c a u s e it i s n o t w r it t e n – t h e w o r k i s n o t d o c u m e n te d a n y w h e r e . T h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t d r iv e t h e w o r k o f th a t d iv is i o n n e w s g a th e r i n g , n e w s p r o c e s s i n g a n d n e w s d is s e m i n a ti o n n o t a s i n g l e o n e o f th o s e p r o c e s s e s i s d o c u m e n t e d . S o t h is is t h e e n v i r o n m e n t th a t I f o u n d a n d i t i s o n ly n o w th a t w e a r e 20 s t a r ti n g t o w o r k o n d o c u m e n t in g w o r k fl o w s . But none of those are documented. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : H o w is t h a t d i ff e r e n t f r o m w h a t t h e o n e w i t n e s s fr o m t h e S A B C w h o i s a n a r c h iv is t M r Sc o t t h e w a s a s e n i o r. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : J a . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a s e n i o r p e r s o n n e l w h o c a m e t o Page 104 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t e s ti fy a n d t o l d u s a b o u t th e a r c h iv e s t h a t th e S A B C k e e p s . Is w h a t y o u t a lk i n g t o d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h a t ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : I t is n o t d i ff e r e n t i t i s p a r t o f t h e s a m e p r o b le m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I: O u r a r c h iv e s y s te m – I a m t r y i n g to f in d t h e r i g h t w o r d fo r i t . B u t a s i t is y o u h a v e a s y s t e m t h a t s ti ll o p e r a t e s o n ta p e s . W e a r e p r o b a b l y o n e o f t h e l a s t f e w b r o a d c a s t e r s th a t a r e s t il l o p e r a ti n g o n a ta p e s y s t e m a n d th a t c o s ts u s a b o u t R 6 m il li o n a 10 y e a r b e c a u s e w e a r e p a y i n g fo r t h o s e w h o a r e n o l o n g e r u s i n g th e s y s te m . S o w h e r e t h in g s a r e – s o t h e s e t a p e s a r e s t a c k e d i n A u c k la n d P a r k a n d y o u w il l f in d t h e m a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y i n t h e d i ff e r e n t r e g i o n s . A n d s o m e o f t h e c o n t e n t t h a t i s i n t h e s e ta p e s h a s d e te r i o r a t e d i n q u a li ty. Yo u n o t e v e n s u r e i f y o u w il l fi n d a n y th in g i f y o u h a d t o t r y a n d u s e t h o s e t a p e s l o o k in g f o r w h a t e v e r t h a t c o n c e r n s y o u a t t h a t p o i n t. A n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e t a p e s y s t e m n o o n e k n o w s f o r c e r t a i n th a t w h a t w e h a d i n 2 0 1 3 i s s ti ll a v a i l a b le b e c a u s e s o m e o f th e s e t a p e s g e t l o s t a n d I h a d b e e n t o l d t h a t s o m e o f t h e m w a lk e d o u t o f t h e b u i l d i n g a n d t h a t is t h e te r m in o lo g y th e y w a lk e d o u t o f t h e b u i l d i n g . S o w e c a n n o t 20 e v e n s a y w i t h c e r t a in ty t h a t w e h a v e th e m a t e r ia l t h a t w e t h i n k w e have. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n y o u s a y t h i s is n o t d o c u m e n te d y o u m e a n – d o y o u m e a n p r o c e s s e s th a t a r e f o l l o w e d in t h e p r o d u c t i o n o f n e w s o r do you mean if I – if somebody says on the 15th February 2013 you had t h is n e w s it e m I w o u l d lik e t o g o b a c k to i t y o u m e a n y o u w o u l d h a v e n o Page 105 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 g u a r a n te e th a t y o u c a n fi n d i t o r is i t b o t h ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : I t is b o th . Th e m a te r i a l i s n o t c a t a l o g u e d p r o p e r ly a n d y o u c a n a t t r i b u t e t h a t t o e i th e r p e o p l e w o r k in g t h e r e n o t k n o w in g h o w t o d o i t p r o p e r l y o r b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o p r o p e r a r c h i v i n g s y s te m t h a t is d ig i ta l . W e a r e s ti ll w o r k i n g o n a n a l o g u e a n d o l d m o d e s o f d o in g th i n g s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d th e n y o u d e a l w i t h c o m m e r c i a l o p p o r t u n i ti e s . H o w d o t h e s e r e l a t e t o a ll th e g a p s t h a t you have dealt with from paragraph 30 at page 8? 10 M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Th e c o m m e r c ia l o p p o r t u n i t ie s t h a t I a m r e fe r r i n g to h e r e i t i s g e n e r a ll y k n o w n th a t b e c a u s e o f th e m a n d a t e th a t w e c a r r y a s t h e n e w s d i v is i o n i t is d i ff ic u l t to c o m m e r c i a l is e n e w s c o n te n t b e c a u s e t h e S A B C p o l ic y p r o h i b i t s u s f r o m d o i n g s o . B u t t h e r e a r e t h i n g s th a t w e c a n d o a n d t h e r e – i n f a c t l e t m e m a k e t h e f ir s t r e fe r e n c e t o u s b e i n g h e r e . T h is is p a r t o f th e p u b lic m a n d a t e t h a t w e a r e s u p p o s e d t o c a r r y th a t w e b r o a d c a s t t h e s e c o m m i s s i o n s . T h e c o s t o f b r o a d c a s t in g t h e s e c o m m i s s io n s i s n o t t a k e n c a r e o f in t h e s e n s e o f t h e p u b li c m a n d a t e . W e d o n o t h a v e m o n e y t h a t a c c o u n ts f o r t h e p u b l ic m a n d a t e t h a t w e – t h a t w e a r e e x p e c t e d to d e li v e r o n . 20 S o t h is c o m m i s s io n h a s b e e n r u n n i n g f o r m o r e t h a n a y e a r n o w a n d t h e arrangement that we have as broadcasters – so you would have ENCA d o i n g o n e w e e k w e t a k e t h e ir f e e d a n d u s d o i n g a n o th e r w e e k t h e y t a k e o u r f e e d th a t is h o w w e m a n a g e t h e c o s ts . B u t t h e r e a li t y is i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r h o w y o u d o i t w e s t il l h a v e t o f o o t t h e b il l d e s p i t e th e f a c t t h a t t h is p r o j e c t is a p u b l ic m a n d a te . S o y o u l o o k a t th is a n d y o u lo o k a t Page 106 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 o th e r t h i n g s th a t w e a r e e x p e c te d t o c o v e r. b r o a d c a s t s e r v ic e s . For instance host When we are asked by government and agencies t o p r o v id e h o s t b r o a d c a s t s e r v ic e s a g a i n I a m g o i n g to u s e a r e c e n t e x a m p l e . W h e n th e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t a p p e a r e d h e r e w e w e r e t h e o n e s w h o w e r e p r o v i d i n g fe a t t h a t d a y a n d t h e e x p e c t a ti o n is t h a t e v e r y m e d i a h o u s e t h a t w a n ts a f e e d is g o i n g t o c o m e t o u s . W e h a d m o r e t h a n 1 5 m e d i a h o u s e s i n c lu d in g i n te r n a ti o n a l m e d i a h o u s e s t h a t h a d t o p l u g o n o u r f e e d . W e a r e t h e o n e s w h o h a v e t o c a r r y t h e c o s t th e y g e t a w a y w i th o u t p a y in g a n y t h i n g a n d b e c a u s e it is a p u b lic m a n d a te b u t n o 10 o n e i s t a k i n g c a r e o f i t. CHAIRPERSON: B u t I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t th a t t h e a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h o th e r s t a t i o n s w o u l d b e y o u c a n g e t th is b u t y o u h a v e t o p a y b e c a u s e w e c a n n o t b e t h e o n l y o n e s p a y i n g a n d y o u j u s t g e t th e b e n e f i ts ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : T h a t is e x a c t ly w h a t w e a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e d o i n g . T h a t w e s t a r t c h a r g in g f o r p e o p l e w h o w a n t a f e e d fr o m u s b e c a u s e w e h a v e to f o o t t h e b il l f o r t h e d e p lo y m e n t s th a t w e h a v e t o m a k e t o c o v e r t h e s e b ig s t o r ie s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t w h y – w h y w o u l d i t n o t h a v e b e e n d o n e fr o m t h e b e g in n in g to s a y w e ll – b e c a u s e I d o r e c a l l w h e n w e s t a r te d h e r e I 20 w a s i n fo r m e d t h a t th e r e w a s a n a r r a n g e m e n t th a t c o u l d b e m a d e i n t e r m s o f w h ic h o n e y o u k n o w s ta t io n S A B C i t w a s – i t c o u ld b e h e r e a n d t h e n o t h e r T V s t a ti o n s w o u l d g e t fr o m t h e m a n d I a s k e d i f t h a t w a s a c c e p ta b l e t o a l l c o n c e r n e d a n d I w a s to l d y e s a n d I s a id o k a y th a t is w h a t w il l h a p p e n . B u t I – I w o u l d h a v e a s s u m e d th a t S A B C w o u l d s a y w e ll i f y o u w a n t th is t h i s i s w h a t w e a r e – t h e s e a r e t h e c o s ts Page 107 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a s s o c i a t e d w it h u s a n d y o u c a n n o t ju s t c o m e a n d g e t t h e b e n e fi t y o u w i ll h a v e t o p a y a s w e ll . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : I t i s o n ly n o w th a t w e a r e t h i n k in g a l o n g t h o s e l in e s b u t p r e v i o u s ly i t h a s b e e n t h e c a s e th a t b e c a u s e w e a r e a p u b lic b r o a d c a s t e r a n d w e t h e r e f o r e h a v e t o p r o v i d e t h e f a c i li t ie s w i t h o u t a n y c o m p e n s a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : J a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . J u s t o n e – t h e r e h a s to b e a 10 d is t in c ti o n a m I c o r r e c t b e t w e e n a s t a te b r o a d c a s te r a n d a n a t i o n a l b r o a d c a s t e r o r is t h e r e n o d i ffe r e n c e a t a ll o r a p u b li c b r o a d c a s t e r a s you put it? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n s t a te a n d p u b li c ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : T h e r e is a d i ff e r e n c e a n d t h e d i ff e r e n c e is h u g e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : O u r e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y i s c l e a r a b o u t w h o w e a r e a n d it is a c t u a ll y e x p li c i t a b o u t u s n o t b e i n g a g o v e r n m e n t m o u th p ie c e a n d s e r v in g p o l it ic a l i n t e r e s t s . 20 regard. I t is v e r y c le a r in t h a t W e c o v e r g o v e r n m e n t b u t w e a r e n o t th e m o u t h p i e c e o f government. J u s t o n e e x a m p l e th a t I k n o w d o e s g e t p e o p l e a n g r y. T h a t w h e n I g o to w o r k I d o n o t a n n o u n c e t h a t I g o t o w o r k b e c a u s e I get paid for what I do. S o i f y o u a r e g o i n g to i n v it e a p u b li c n e w s s e r v ic e w h e n y o u s w i tc h o n a t a p o r w h e n y o u c u t a r ib b o n t h a t i s a p r o b le m a n d t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e p e o p le w h o t a k e e d it o r ia l Page 108 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 d e c is i o n s t o d o s u c h . Yo u c a n s t il l c o v e r th e s t o r y. Yo u c o v e r i t fr o m t h e p e r s p e c tiv e o f t h e c o m m u n it i e s th a t a r e a ff e c t e d b y w h a t e v e r is h a p p e n in g . Yo u g e t ti n g w a te r a f te r 2 5 y e a r s o r y o u g e t t in g w a t e r a f t e r a y e a r. B u t t h e f a c t t h a t a t a p h a s b e e n s w i tc h e d o n c a n n o t b e a s t o r y. A s a p u b li c b r o a d c a s te r a n d a s a p u b lic n e w s s e r v ic e w e d e c i d e h o w w e a p p ly w h a t is o u r m a n d a t e t o o u r e d i t o r i a l d e c is io n s a n d o u r s t o r ie s h a v e t o r e f l e c t t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 Thank you. Ta l k i n g a b o u t t h e S A B C ’s m a n d a t e c o u l d y o u p l e a s e tu r n t o p a g e 1 9 t h is is o n e o f y o u r a n n e x u r e s t o y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h ic h is t h e S A B C E d i t o r i a l P o lic y ? But – page 19 t h a t i s w h e r e t h e m a n d a te is o u tl i n e d . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : C o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Are you there M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s I a m t h a n k y o u . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d y o u ju s t p l a c e o n r e c o r d b r i e fl y t h e b u ll e ts t h a t a r e t h e r e a n d h o w i ts fu n c t io n s , r ig h ts a n d o b li g a t i o n s . 20 M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I: O k a y. R e f le c t s S o u th A f r ic a n a t t it u d e s … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O r m a y b e y o u s h o u ld s ta r t w it h t h e c h a r te r. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : S t a r t w i th t h e – A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E v e n t h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e is f in e y e s . Page 109 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : O k a y. “ T h e S A B C ’s m a n d a t e a s a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r c o m e s fr o m t h e c h a r t e r w h ic h d e fi n e s i ts o b j e c t iv e s . The c h a r te r is l a i d d o w n i n c h a p te r 4 o f t h e B r o a d c a s t in g A c t a s a m e n d e d a n d r e q u ir e s th e S A B C t o e n c o u r a g e t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f S o u th A fr ic a n e x p r e s s io n b y p r o v i d in g in t h e o ff ic ia l l a n g u a g e s a w id e r a n g e o f p r o g r a m m i n g t h a t r e f le c t s S o u th A f r ic a n a t ti t u d e s , o p i n i o n , id e a s , v a l u e s a n d a r t is ti c c r e a t iv it y. T h a t d i s p l a y s S o u t h A f r i c a n t a l e n t in e d u c a ti o n a l a n 10 entertaining programmes. T h a t o ff e r s a p l u r a l i ty o f v i e w s a n d a v a r i e ty o f n e w s , in f o r m a ti o n a n d a n a ly s ts fr o m a S o u t h A f r ic a n p o i n t o f v i e w. T h a t a d v a n c e s t h e n a ti o n a l a n d p u b l ic i n te r e s t . ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s a n d th o s e a r e th e o b je c tiv e s t h a t you say you subscribe to? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n m a y w e t h e n g o 20 b a c k t o y o u r s t a t e m e n t . Yo u h a v e – h a v e y o u fi n i s h e d e x p l a i n in g t h e s e fi n a n c i a l c o m m e r c i a l o p p o r t u n i ti e s t h a t y o u d e a l t w it h . B u t I t h i n k if y o u – i f – y o u h a v e b u t I w o u ld lik e y o u – t o ta k e y o u to p a r a g r a p h 3 0 .2 p a g e 9 w h e r e y o u d e a l w it h t h e p r ic i n g s y s t e m o f y o u r a r c h iv a l m a t e r i a l. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : O k a y. Page 110 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h i s is o n e o f t h e m a t t e r s t h a t Mr S c o t t d e a l t w it h a n d i t r e l a te s t o c o n t e n t t h a t w a s g iv e n t o A N N 7 . S o i t is a m a t t e r t h a t is i m p o r ta n t f o r t h e w o r k o f th e c o m m i s s i o n . S o c o u l d y o u ju s t te ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t – w h a t is i t th a t y o u w a n t t o c o n v e y there? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : W h a t w e h a v e h e r e e v e n o u ts i d e th e m a t e r i a l t h a t l i n k s to w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h A N N 7 . T h e p r i c i n g s t r u c t u r e o f a r c h i v e m a te r i a l w h e n w e l ic e n c e i t t o p a r t i e s t h a t a r e i n te r e s t e d in t h e c o n t e n t i s s u c h th a t t h e r e i s n o d i s c r i m i n a t i o n i n t h e c o n te n t . 10 W h e t h e r t h e c o n te n t is u n i q u e . W h e th e r t h e c o n t e n t is e x c l u s iv e t o t h e S A B C a n d l o o k in g a t t h e a g e o f t h e m a t e r i a l , t h e n o v e l ty o f t h e m a t e r i a l t h e r e is a f l a t s tr u c t u r e . S o i t i s a f la t p r ic e t h a t w e c h a r g e . It is R 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 p e r m i n u t e . R e g a r d le s s o f t h e f a c t th a t s o m e o f t h a t m a t e r i a l cannot be reproduced. A n d th is i s s o m e th i n g t h a t w e a r e n o w a d d r e s s i n g w i th o u r i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty u n i t b e c a u s e i t c a n n o t b e a l lo w e d a n d t h e r e is a l o t o f v a l u e t h a t w e l o s e a s a r e s u l t o f t h e current arrangement. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n y o u d e a l w i t h a n o t h e r o p p o r t u n i ty a t p a r a g r a p h 3 0 .3 20 M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D e a li n g w i th o u t s i d e b r o a d c a s t s . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : O k a y. O u ts i d e b r o a d c a s t s th e G r o u p C E O d id m a k e a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e s e a r r a n g e m e n ts . These are stories t h a t w e c o v e r a n d a b o v e o u r g e n e r a l d e p l o y m e n ts . F o r i n s t a n c e i f y o u h a v e t o c o v e r a s t o r y y o u w o u l d d e p l o y a r e p o r t e r, d e p l o y a v id e o Page 111 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 jo u r n a li s t i f i t i s r a d i o y o u d e p l o y a r a d io r e p o r te r, i f i t d ig i ta l y o u d e p lo y a p e r s o n w h o is g o i n g to t a k e c a r e o f t h o s e n e e d s . O r a s s i g n t h e t w o fr o m r a d io a n d T V t o m a k e t h a t c o n t e n t a v a i la b l e f o r o u r [i n d is t in c t] p la t f o r m s . S o i n th is c a s e t h e p r o j e c ts o r b r o a d c a s t p r o j e c ts t h a t w e w o u l d c h a r g e fo r a s o u ts id e b r o a d c a s t s a r e t h o s e th a t a r e b e y o n d o u r g e n e r a l c o v e r a g e . T h e y r e q u ir e b ig g e r d e p lo y m e n t s i n t e r m s o f r e s o u r c e s a n d th is i s w h e r e w e s t a r t c h a r g i n g f o r o u r c o v e r a g e w h ic h is n o t n e c e s s a r i ly t h e c o n t e n t b u t i t is t h e d e p l o y m e n t , t h e c o s ts o f d e p l o y i n g r e s o u r c e s t o c o v e r th e s e s to r i e s . 10 Th e n u m b e r o f jo u r n a li s ts t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o s e n d . T h e m u lt i c a m e r a r e q u ir e m e n ts f o r t h e s to r y t h a t y o u w o u l d b e c o v e r i n g s o y o u l o o k a t a l l o f t h a t a n d t h e n y o u w o u ld s a y t h i s is h o w m u c h i t is g o in g to c o s t u s . I f w e w e r e t o h ir e o u t t h e s e f a c i li t ie s t h is i s w h a t w e w o u l d g e t a n d t h e r e fo r e t h is is w h a t i t c o s ts u s t o c o v e r t h e s to r y. A n d in t h e w a y i t h a s b e e n d o n e it w a s h a n d le d b y e x e c u ti v e p r o d u c e r s w h o w o u l d d e c i d e a n d i t h a s always been around R50 000.00 regardless of th e e x te n t of d e p lo y m e n t s a n d th e a r r a n g e m e n t th a t w e h a v e n o w it i s w it h c o m m e r c ia l e n te r p r is e s b e c a u s e it i s n o t o n ly a b o u t th e r e s o u r c e s t h a t a r e d e p l o y e d i t i s t h e a ir t i m e th a t th e c li e n t w o u l d h a v e d e r iv e d v a l u e 20 fr o m b y u s p u t t in g th e c o n t e n t o n a ir. A n d in s o m e o f th e c a s e s i t is m o r e th a n a n h o u r b u t y o u p a y R 4 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 w h i c h o n ly c o v e r s p a r t o f t h e d e p lo y m e n t c o s t s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. Thank you. And then the next p a r a g r a p h y o u d e a l w i t h a d v e r tis i n g i n t h e n e w s – I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r it i s in th e n e w s r o o m o r w h a t d o y o u m e a n b y s a y i n g t h a t Page 112 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 g e n e r a l ly a d v e r ti s i n g t h e r e is n o t a ll o w e d ? Does it mean that when t h e r e i s n e w s y o u c a n n o t s h o w c l ie n t e l e , w h a t d o e s i t m e a n ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : A g a in t h is i s a p o l ic y i s s u e . W e a r e n o t a l lo w e d to a d v e r t is e n e w s a n d i t is o u t o f f e a r o f c o m m e r c i a l i n f l u e n c e in o u r c o n te n t . Th e o n ly a d v e r ti s i n g t h a t is a ll o w e d i t i s d u r i n g a d b r e a k s – c o m m e r c i a l j a w e c a l l th e m c o m m e r c i a l a d b r e a k s o r t h e t i m e w e t a k e a b r e a k a n d g o e ls e w h e r e . S o th i s i s t h e – t h e s e a r e th e s l o ts t h a t – t h a t y o u w o u l d u s e f o r a d v e r t is i n g b u t f o r s o m e r e a s o n th e r e w a s a p o i n t w i t h i n t h e S A B C w h e n th e r e w a s a n u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t 10 a d v e r t is in g i s n o t a l lo w e d . Yo u a r e n o t s u p p o s e d to p la c e a n y c o m m e r c ia l news content on our programming. n e c e s s a r i ly th e c a s e w e h a v e a d b r e a k s . Which is not B e c a u s e e v e n if y o u lo o k a t o u r fr e e t o a ir c h a n n e l s S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 t h e r e a r e a d b r e a k s a n d th is is h o w w e g e n e r a t e r e v e n u e . T h e o n ly th i n g t h a t is p r o h i b it e d i s s p o n s o r s h i p o f n e w s c o n t e n t o f c u r r e n t a ffa ir s c o n t e n t . Yo u c a n d o s p o n s o r s h i p s a r o u n d i n f o r m a l k n o w l e d g e b u i ld i n g p r o g r a m m i n g w h i c h is y o u r s h o w s l ik e Tr a v e l Tr e n d s . In t h i s c a s e y o u w o u l d l o o k a t in t e r e s ti n g p l a c e s to g o to o r t o v i s i t i n S o u t h A f r ic a a n d i t is y o u r h e a lt h t i p s s h o w s , i t is y o u r p e r s o n a l f in a n c e t ip s , i t i s th i n g s t h a t h a v e 20 – t h a t a r e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly h a r d c o r e n e w s th a t y o u w o u l d c o v e r i n g t h a t r e q u ir e h a r d e d i to r i a l tr e a t m e n t . S o t h e r e a r e o p p o r t u n i ti e s t o g e n e r a t e r e v e n u e b u t a g a i n i t is a s p a c e th a t w e a r e o n ly g e t ti n g i n to n o w. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . And you – by the way just on a d v e r t is in g ju s t a s a m a t t e r o f i n t e r e s t. H o w d o e s i t w o r k b e c a u s e y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t o n e c o m p a n y g e ts e x p o s e d m o r e t h a n a n y o t h e r c o m p a n y ? Page 113 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 D o e s i t g o a c c o r d i n g t o t h e c o s t th a t t h a t – o r t h e m o n e y t h a t th a t c o m p a n y p a y s t h e S A B C o r d o e s i t d e p e n d o n t h e r e a c ti o n o f th e p u b l ic t o t h a t p a r tic u la r a d v e r ti s e m e n t , h o w d o e s t h a t w o r k ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : T h e s c h e d u l in g o f a d v e r ts d e p e n d s o n t h e a ir t i m e b o u g h t b y th e c li e n t . T h a t is h o w i t w o r k s . J a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. S o th e m o r e m o n e y y o u h a v e a n d t h e m o r e a d v e r t s – m o r e a ir t i m e y o u b u y th e m o r e y o u g e t s h o w n ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : C o r r e c t . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y d e a l t w i th – 10 y o u u s e d t h is c o m m i s s io n a s a n e x a m p l e w h e n d e a li n g w it h 3 0 . 6 , a m I correct? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n – s o n o w y o u g e t t h e r e y o u f in d t h e s t a te t h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y d e s c r ib e d t o th e C h a ir p e r s o n s o w h a t a r e t h e in t e r v e n ti o n s t h e n ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : T h e – t h e – s o r r y – th e k i n d o f in t e r v e n t i o n s t h a t w e h a v e h a d to m a k e t h e fir s t th i n g th a t I – t h a t w e h a d t o d o w a s t o l o o k a t t h e s e t u p in t h e n e w s r o o m . Our mandate, w h a t h a d g o n e w r o n g ? W h a t w e n e e d e d t o d o d i ff e r e n t ly. S o t h a t w a s 20 o u r s ta r t i n g p o i n t. A n d r e l a te d t o t h a t w e h a d to t h i n k a b o u t th e fa c t t h a t w e s a y a s a p u b lic n e w s s e r v ic e o u r d u ty is to p r o v i d e c r i ti c a l w a t c h d o g j o u r n a li s m . N o t j u s t i n fo r m a ti o n a b o u t w h a t is h a p p e n in g , t h a t is o u r d u ty. A n d p a r t o f o u r m a n d a te is t o e n s u r e t h a t w e e n h a n c e t h e d e m o c r a c y o f t h e c o u n tr y b y d o i n g t h e t h i n g s t h a t w e a r e d o i n g a n d p r o v i d in g i n f o r m a ti o n , a s s i s t i n g c i ti z e n s w i t h th e r ig h t i n fo r m a ti o n s o Page 114 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t h a t th e y m a k e th e r i g h t d e c i s i o n s . B u t t h e r e is s o m e th i n g t h a t w e a l w a y s s a y, w h i le i t is o k a y fo r u s t o s a y w e a r e th e e y e s a n d e a r s o f t h e p u b li c i n h o w w e d o th in g s h o l d in g a u t h o r i ty t o a c c o u n t w h e t h e r i t i s p o li t ic i a n s , g o v e r n m e n t o r b u s i n e s s w h a t w e a r e n o t is th e v o ic e o f t h e v o i c e l e s s . W e l ik e t o m a k e t h a t c l a i m a n d i t s o u n d s r ig h t w h e n w e d o so. T h e r e i s - th e r e is a n I n d i a n a u th o r A r u n d h a t i R o y w h o t a lk s t o t h is is s u e a n d h e r v ie w i s t h a t t h e r e is n o s u c h th i n g a s th e v o ic e l e s s . I t is o n l y t h o s e w h o a r e d e li b e r a t e ly s i le n c e d o r t h o s e w h o 10 a r e p r e f e r a b ly u n h e a r d . S o o u r t a s k a s a p u b li c n e w s s e r v ic e i t is n o t t o b e t h e v o i c e o f t h o s e p e o p l e . Th e y h a v e t h e v o ic e . W e n e e d to f i n d t h o s e v o ic e s . W e n e e d t o g o to t h e a r e a s w h e r e th e s e p e o p l e a r e a n d e l e v a te t h e ir v o ic e s . G e t t h e m t o t a lk a b o u t t h e ir is s u e s n o t u s s p e a k i n g o n th e i r b e h a l f. I t is n o t o u r j o b to d o th a t . W e d o n o t w a n t t o i n te r p r e t - in t e r p r e t t h e ir v ie w s . W e d o n o t w a n t t o in t e r p r e t t h e ir o p in i o n s a n d a n d i n t h is c a s e w h e n y o u lo o k a t w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d w h a t w e n e e d e d to fix . W e n e e d e d t o g o b a c k th e r e a n d s a y i f o u r t a s k i s t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s p l u r a li t y o f v i e w s in o u r n e w s c o n t e n t a n d th e r e i s 20 in c l u s i v i ty in o u r c o v e r a g e . H o w d o w e d o t h a t a n d t h e s e i n t e r v e n ti o n s w e r e m e a n t to a d d r e s s th e h o w d o w e d o s o . S o t h e fir s t t h i n g w a s t o s a y l o o k i n g a t t h e la p s e o f e d i t o r ia l c o n t r o ls i f t h e y w e r e e v e r t h e r e w h a t a r e t h e t h i n g s th a t w e w o u l d h a v e to s a y a r e th e fi l te r s f o r e d i to r i a l d e c is i o n m a k i n g a n d th is h o w w e e n d e d u p w i t h t h e t w o v a l u e s i n d e p e n d e n t a n d Page 115 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 i m p a r t i a l w h ic h a r e p a r t o f o u r v a lu e s y s t e m in o u r e d i t o r i a l p o lic ie s a n d w e lo o k a t t h o s e f o r t h e s e v e r y r e a s o n s o f i n t e r fe r e n c e th a t h a s b e e n s e e n a s a p r o b l e m w i t h i n th e S A B C n e w s s y s t e m . S o i n d o in g t h is w e w e r e tr y in g t o s a y to jo u r n a li s ts i n e v e r y d e c is i o n t h a t y o u m a k e i n y o u r o w n s p a c e b e c a u s e e v e r y b o d y i s a d e c is i o n m a k e r i n a n e w s g a t h e r i n g s y s t e m . Fr o m th e p e r s o n w h o d e c i d e s h o w th e - w h i c h s t o r y is g o i n g t o b e t o l d o r th a t th is is e v e n a s t o r y t o t h e p e r s o n w h o d e c id e s t o t a k e th e s t o r y t o a - th e v id e o jo u r n a li s t h o w d e c id e s to fi l m t h is p a r t a n d n o t t h e o th e r p a r t t o t h e 10 v id e o e d i t o r w h o d e c i d e s t h a t th is is w h a t I a m g o i n g t o s h o w a n d n o t t h is o n e . E v e r y b o d y in t h is c h a i n i s a d e c i s i o n m a k e r. So it was i m p o r t a n t t o s a y t o t h e n e w s r o o m i n th e c o n te x t o f t h e s e tw o e d it o r i a l p i ll a r s a s fil t e r s t h is is h o w y o u m a k e y o u r d e c is io n s . A r e y o u g o in g t o b e a b l e t o s a y th is s t o r y h a s b e e n p r o d u c e d in d e p e n d e n tl y ? T h e r e h a s b e e n n o in f lu e n c e i n h o w I d e c i d e d o n h o w I d id t h i s s to r y. Is t h e r e p o li t ic a l i n fl u e n c e . Is t h e r e c o m m e r c i a l i n fl u e n c e . I - m y p e r s o n a l p r e j u d ic e - p r e j u d ic e s in t h e w a y o f m e d e c id i n g o n h o w I d o t h e s t o r y. 20 So that a ls o i n c l u d e d i n tr o s p e c t io n fr o m t h e p o i n t o f v ie w o f t h e j o u r n a lis t w h o a r e d o i n g t h e s to r i e s . S o i t i s h e l p f u l f o r u s t o s a y w i t h th e s e tw o p i ll a r s w e a r e a b l e t o g u i d e e d i to r i a l d e c i s io n m a k in g . Yo u c a n n o t b e r e fe r r i n g e v e r y t h i n g u p w a r d s w h e n y o u k n o w t h a t i f I te s t m y s t o r y a g a in s t t h e s e t w o p ill a r s I a m c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t I h a v e d o n e th e r ig h t t h i n g o r i f I a m n o t c o m f o r t a b l e w h a t a r e t h e t h in g s t h a t I n e e d t o d o . Page 116 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 A t t h e l e v e l o f i m p a r t ia li ty a m I f a ir e n o u g h i n t h e w a y I h a v e c o v e r e d th e s t o r y. D o I h a v e a l l th e s i d e s t h a t n e e d t o c o m m e n t o n t h e s t o r y o r i f I a m n o t f i n d in g a ll t h e v o i c e s w h a t a r e t h e o p p o r tu n i ti e s t h a t I h a v e t o p r e s e n t t h e o t h e r v o ic e s w h e n t h e y b e c o m e a v a i la b l e . S o o u r s t a r ti n g p o in t w a s in t h i s a r e a a n d b e c a u s e w e a r e a ls o e x p e c te d t o b e in c l u s i v e in o u r c o v e r a g e w e h a d t o s a y w h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n . I t i s n o t o n ly b e i n g i n c l u s iv e i n t e r m s o f t h e p e o p le w h o a r e a r o u n d y o u o r t h e v o i c e s t h a t a r e a l w a y s a v a i l a b l e f o r c o m m e n t a r y. W e h a r d ly s e e w o m e n a s e x p e r t v o i c e s in o u r n e w s c o v e r a g e a s e c o n o m i c s 10 a s r e s e a r c h e r s o r a n y t h i n g th a t y o u w a n t e x p e r t a d v ic e o r c o u n s e l o n . S o w e h a d to t h i n k a b o u t h o w a s a n e w s r o o m a r e w e g o i n g t o in c l u d e t h e s e v o ic e s i n o u r s t o r i e s a n d i t is c o n v e r s a t io n th a t ta k e s p l a c e i n e d i to r i a l m e e ti n g s . W h a t a r e th e v o ic e s th a t w e a r e g o in g t o u s e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h is s to r y i s r e s o u r c e d p r o p e r ly a n d w e a r e c o m f o r t a b l e th a t i t is g o - i t is - it is r e a d y t o g o to a i r a n d n o t o n l y t h e f a c t t h a t w e a r e lo o k in g a t w o m e n . W e a r e a ls o lo o k i n g a t w o m e n i n r u r a l a r e a s a n d i n t h is c a s e y o u w o u l d s a y i f ( A f r ic a n l a n g u a g e ) n e e d s a c c e s s t o in f o r m a ti o n I w il l p r o v id e ( A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e ) t h e k i n d o f i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t 20 r e q u ir e s w h e r e s h e is o r a r e w e t e l li n g t h is w o m a n a b o u t b r o w n r i c e a n d l e n ti l is s u e s t h a t a r e f a c t . P e o p l e a r e s i t ti n g i n S a n d t o n a n d t h e m i d d l e c l a s s . S o th e s e a r e t h e c o n v e r s a t io n s t h a t w e n o w g e t i n v o lv e d i n o u r - i n o u r e d i t o r i a l d e c is i o n m a k i n g b u t i t is a l l d r iv e n b y w h a t i s i t t h a t t h e E d i to r i a l P o lic y r e q u ir e s u s t o d o in t h e w a y w e c o v e r s t o r i e s a n d w e h a v e g o t te n t o Page 117 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t h a t m o d e w h e r e o n a d a i ly b a s is w e w o u l d s a y b u t w h a t d o e s t h e E d it o r ia l P o l ic y s a y. W h a t d o e s t h e E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y s a y ? S o i t is n o l o n g e r a b o u t ju s t a s s i g n in g s t o r i e s a n d th is a ls o i n c lu d e s th e a ll o c a ti o n o f r e s o u r c e s t o s to r i e s . Yo u c a n s i t h e r e a n d s a y w e d o n o t h a v e a liv e f a c i li ty w h i c h is th e - w h ic h a r e th e d e v i c e s t h a t w e u s e t o d o l iv e c o v e r a g e t h a t a r e p o r t a b l e . W e d o n o t h a v e a li v e f a c ili t y t o g o t o t h e s to r y b u t th e r e i s a liv e f a c il it y t h a t i s a l lo c a t e d t o a d i ff e r e n t s t o r y a n d w e l o o k a t t h e s e t w o s t o r ie s a n d s a y w h ic h o f t h e t w o s t o r i e s is l ik e l y t o h a v e m o r e 10 i m p a c t o n t h e p u b li c o r th a t h a s m o r e p e o p le b e i n g a ffe c t e d b y t h is is s u e . I t c o u ld b e s o m e t h i n g th a t is h a p p e n in g i n o n e o f t h e in f o r m a l s e t tl e m e n ts b u t it is o n ly a n e x a m p l e o f a n is s u e th a t c o u l d h a v e a n a t io n a l s c a l e i f y o u lo o k a t o t h e r a r e a s i n t h e c o u n tr y. S o y o u tr e a t y o u r s t o r i e s a n d y o u r a l lo c a t io n o f r e s o u r c e s i n t h a t c o n t e x t . S o t h e s e a r e th e c o n v e r s a t io n s n o w t h a t a r e t a k in g p l a c e in o u r n e w s r o o m b u t t h e o t h e r p a r t to t h e a n s w e r i s I g o t i n a n e n v ir o n m e n t w h e r e w e h a d t h r e e p l a t fo r m s t h a t w e r e r u n n i n g p a r a ll e l. Yo u h a d d i a r y m e e t i n g fo r r a d i o , d i a r y m e e ti n g s f o r T V, d ia r y 20 m e e ti n g s f o r d i g it a l a n d y o u w o u ld f i n d in s ta n c e s w h e r e r a d i o g e ts s u r p r is e d w h e n t h e y s e e a s t o r y o n T V. T V g e t s s u r p r is e d w h e n t h e y h e a r a s t o r y o n r a d i o . D i g it a l is th e s a m e b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t t a l k t o e a c h o t h e r. S o t h e p l a n w a s t o s a y l o o k i n g a t t e c h n o l o g ic a l c o n v e r s io n s t h a t is ta k i n g p la c e a l r e a d y a n d lo o k i n g a t h o w p e o p l e a r e c o n s u m in g n e w s a n d s a y i n g w e n e e d t o d o t h a t a t th e p o i n t o f Page 118 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 p r o d u c t io n s t a r ti n g w it h s t o r y id e a ti o n . H o w d o w e l o o k a t t h e s t o r y id e a a s a s t a r ti n g p o in t a n d n o t t h e p la t f o r m s a s a s ta r t i n g p o in t - T V, d i g i t a l a n d r a d i o . H o w d o w e a s S A B C n e w s s a y t h is is o u r s t o r y fo r th e d a y ? How do we make sure t h a t t h is s t o r y is r e f le c t e d a d e q u a t e ly a c r o s s a ll th e p la t f o r m s a n d w e g o t to a p o i n t w h e r e w e n o w i n t e g r a t e d i a r ie s ? We have two diary m e e ti n g s w h e r e e v e r y b o d y s i ts - d i g i t a l , r a d i o a n d - a n d te le v is i o n a n d w e s a y w e h a v e t h is s t o r y i d e a . H o w a r e w e g o i n g t o tr e a t i t? 10 W e d is c u s s t h a t p a r t . How d o e s i t r e la t e t o t h e w o r k t h a t w e a r e e x p e c t e d t o d o a s a p u b l ic n e w s s e r v ic e ? W e d e a l w i t h t h a t p a r t . W h a t a r e t h e r e s o u r c e s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o b e d e p l o y e d ? H o w m a n y r e p o r t e r s a r e g o in g to g o t o th e s t o r y a n d w h o is g o i n g t o c o v e r t h e s t o r y f o r r a d i o , f o r T V a n d d ig i ta l b u t i t is a s in g le c o n v e r s a t io n f o r e v e r y o n e w i th in t h e n e w s s e r v i c e a n d w e t o o k t h e a p p r o a c h o f a n e w s s e r v i c e in s te a d o f t h e d i ffe r e n t p l a t f o r m s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n u s in g . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h e n t a lk s to i m p r o v e m e n t o f t h e s y s te m s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o w o r k g o in g fo r w a r d ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : 20 Ye s . I t is - it is t h e e ffi c i e n c i e s w i t h i n t h e s y s t e m b u t e d i to r i a l ly it is a ls o t o e n s u r e c o n s is te n c y i n q u a li ty a n d t o n e b e c a u s e th e s t o r i e s a r e l ik e l y t o b e d i ffe r e n t d e p e n d i n g o n t h e a u d ie n c e s b u t th e q u a l i ty h a s to b e th e s a m e a n d it is t h e k i n d o f q u a li ty t h a t y o u w a n t t h e a u d i e n c e s t o s a y I h a v e b e e n lis t e n i n g t o t h is s t o r y o r I h a v e b e e n w a tc h in g th is s t o r y. I c a n t e ll th a t th is is a n S A B C n e w s s t o r y. Page 119 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : S o t h i s is t h e p o i n t th a t w e a r e tr y in g t o get at … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : B u t i n t e r m s o f m a n a g in g e ffic i e n c i e s w e a r e a b l e n o w t o s a y r e p o r t e r s A a n d B e s p e c i a lly n o w th a t w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o f il l t h e p o s it i o n s o f r e p o r t e r s t h a t w e h a v e l o s t - t h e 1 8 r e p o r t e r s t h a t w e h a v e l o s t . W e a r e a b l e t o s a y t h e r e is a r e p o r t e r w h o c a n a l s o d o r a d io . 10 L e t u s d e p l o y th is p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h i s p e r s o n i s m u l ti - m u l t i s k il le d . S o w e d o n o t h a v e to d e p l o y t h e th r e e r e p o r te r s th a t w e w o u ld d e p l o y o r t w o r e p o r t e r s t h a t w e w o u l d d e p lo y to a s to r y. So it a ls o a s s is t u s m a n a g e o u r e ffic i e n c i e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay and then just one thing that you o m i tt e d to m e n ti o n i n p a r a g r a p h 3 1 is th e c o m m i s s io n in g o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n that was done by Mr Joe Thloloe w h ic h you make r e fe r e n c e t o i n th a t p a r a g r a p h . A m I c o r r e c t a n d t h a t is a n n e x e d - th a t r e p o r t is a n n e x e d a s - a n n e x e d a s M - P M 0 0 2 a n d i t a p p e a r s f r o m pages 71 right up to page 1-3-6? 20 M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h e n w e th e n - y o u d e a l w i t h t h e s t e p s t h a t y o u t o o k . Th is i s w h a t w e a r e d e a l in g w i th . Yo u m e n t i o n s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u d id b e tw e e n M a r c h a n d M a y 2 0 1 8 g o i n g t h r o u g h a ll Page 120 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 t h e s ta t io n s a n d - a n d w h a t - w h a t r e s u l ts d id t h a t - w h a t d i d y o u achieve by doing so? M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : In M a r c h - b e tw e e n M a r c h a n d M a y … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : I v is i te d a l l th e o ffi c e s a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y a n d t h e in t e n t i o n w a s to a s s e s s t h e s t a te o f h e a l t h o f t h e o ffic e s b e c a u s e i f I w a s to d o a n y w o r k o r w e w e r e to d o a n y w o r k a s a d iv is io n t o tr y a n d c h a n g e t h i n g s I n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d i f th e s y s t e m i s g o i n g t o s u p p o r t t h e c h a n g e t h a t w a s r e q u ir e d . 10 S o g o in g to t h e d i ff e r e n t o ffi c e s s o m e o f th e c h a ll e n g e s th a t w e r e th e r e r e l a te d to in fr a s tr u c t u r e is s u e s , t e c h n o l o g i c a l i n fr a s tr u c t u r e . Yo u h a d r e p o r t e r s w h o w o u l d t o g o s to r i e s w i t h n o t e b o o k s . N o o n e d o e s t h a t i n t h is d a y a n d a g e . T h e y h a v e t o c o m e b a c k to th e n e w s r o o m a n d s c r ip t t h e ir s t o r i e s . They have no laptops or iPads to e n s u r e th a t a s t h e y a r e s i t ti n g t h e r e th e in f o r m a t io n is s e n t t o t h e newsroom for broadcast. S o t h e ir c o u n te r p a r ts fr o m o th e r m e d i a h o u s e s b y t h e ti m e t h e y l e a v e t h e r o o m t h e s to r y is a lr e a d y o n a ir. O u r s h a v e to g o b a c k t o th e n e w s r o o m b e f o r e o u r s t o r ie s g e t t o a ir a n d in s o m e o f t h e c a s e s y o u h a d i n s t a n c e s w h e r e r e p o r t e r s h a v e 20 … CHAIRPERSON: W e ll m a y … m a y b e th a t h e l p s m e u n d e r s ta n d w h y s o m e t i m e s I h e a r a s t o r y t o d a y i n o n e o r o th e r T V s t a t i o n o r r a d i o s t a ti o n a n d I o n ly h e a r t o m o r r o w i n S A B C a n d I w o n d e r w h a t is w r o n g w i t h S A B C . T h e y a r e t e l li n g u s o ld n e w s . M a y b e th a t is w h y. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : I a m tr a u m a ti s e d . Page 121 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . Q u i t e tr u ly I h a v e w o n d e r e d . I s a y r e a l ly w e h a d t h is - I m e a n - y e s t e r d a y a n d t h e y a r e o n ly t e l li n g u s n o w. O k a y, a lr i g h t . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : I t - i t - j a it is - i t is a n u m b e r o f is s u e s b u t t h a t i s a ls o p a r t o f t h e p r o b l e m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : A n d y o u w o u ld h a v e in s ta n c e s w h e r e r e p o r t e r s h a v e to t r a v e l lo n g d i s t a n c e s . A p r o v in c e l ik e K Z N i f y o u a r e g o i n g to ta k e i n c l u s i v i ty s e r i o u s ly y o u a r e g o i n g t o c o v e r t h e c o u n tr ie s 10 r u r a l p r o v i n c e s a n d y o u a r e g o i n g to c o v e r t h o s e ( in d is ti n c t) t h a t a r e s i tt i n g i n th o s e p r o v in c e s . S o y o u d r iv e 5 0 0 k i lo m e tr e s f o r y o u r s t o r y c o v e r t h e s t o r y c o m e b a c k b e c a u s e y o u h a v e to d r iv e a n o t h e r 5 0 0 k il o m e tr e s t o t h e o ff ic e i n D u r b a n . T h a t is 1 0 0 0 k il o m e tr e s o n th e r o a d i n o n e d a y. Yo u s til l h a v e t o g e t t o t h e s y s t e m a n d p r o c e s s t h e s t o r y a n d t h e s y s te m is n o t r e l i a b le o r s o m e o f th e fa c il i ti e s h a v e f a l le n a p a r t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u h a v e t o q u e u e t o e d it y o u r s t o r i e s . B y th e t i m e y o u l e a v e t h e o ff ic e i t is a l m o s t m i d n i g h t a n d th is w h a t w e h a v e d o n e t o o u r r e p o r t e r s a n d n o t o n ly th a t p e o p le h a v e t o f in d t h e m s e lv e s w o r k i n g lo n g h o u r s w h i c h i s 20 n o t o u t o f t h e n o r m in o u r a r e a b u t t h e f a c t t h a t p e o p l e h a v e to d r iv e s u c h l o n g d i s ta n c e s . W e c a n n o t b o o k t h e m t o s le e p o v e r b e c a u s e w e d o n o t h a v e m o n e y. S o y o u e x p o s e t h e m t o d a n g e r b y e x p e c ti n g th e m t o d r i v e t o a n d fr o i n s u c h l o n g d is t a n c e s a n d t h e y h a v e to d o s o b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t h a v e e d i ti n g fa c i li ti e s t h a t a r e m o b il e w h e r e th e y c o u l d b e b o o k e d Page 122 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 o v e r, p r o c e s s t h e ir s t o r i e s , s e n d t h e m to t h e n e w s r o o m d r iv e b a c k th e f o ll o w i n g d a y. W e d o n o t h a v e t h a t l u x u r y. We want to meet the mandate b u t a t t h e c o s t t o th e j o u r n a li s ts w h o a r e o u t i n t h e f ie l d . D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . Yo u h a v e d e a l t a lr e a d y w i t h th e v a l u e s o f i n d e p e n d e n c e a n d i m p a r ti a li ty a n d r e p o s i ti o n i n g t h e S A B C . I t h i n k t h a t t a k e s c a r e o f w h a t y o u d e a l w it h i n p a r a g r a p h s 3 2 .2 r i g h t u p t o 3 2 . 5 b e c a u s e y o u a ls o d e a l t w i th t h e d i a r i e s - s in g l e d i a r y. A l t h o u g h y o u h a v e - w h e r e y o u d e a l t w i t h t h e m e e ti n g s t h a t y o u n o w h a v e tw ic e 10 t w ic e a w e e k … M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O f a ll t h e s t a k e h o l d e r s . T h e n w e - I t h i n k we should move on if you are comfortable that you have covered e v e r y t h i n g t h e r e . W e c o u l d m o v e o n n o w t o t h e i m p a c t o f th e c h a n g e s t h a t y o u h a v e e ff e c te d s o f a r. W h e n I s a y y o u I m e a n y o u a n d y o u r y o u r - th o s e th a t w o r k w i th y o u i n - i n i m p r o v i n g th e s y s te m s . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s w e c a n m o v e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : 20 From an editorial point of view the one t h i n g t h a t I h a d t o d o w a s t o d e m o n s tr a t e t h e c h a n g e I w a n t e d t o s e e i n t h e s y s te m . I r e m e m b e r o n e in s ta n c e d u r in g t h e p e r i o d w h e n w e w e r e c o v e r in g th e l a te M s M a d ik iz e l a - M a n d e l a ’s fu n e r a l . Walking into the c o n tr o l r o o m . J u s t o b s e r v i n g h o w t h e w o r k w a s b e i n g d o n e a n d I p ic k e d u p a s p e ll in g e r r o r a n d I a m p o i n ti n g o u t t o th e p e r s o n w h o is d e a l in g w i t h Page 123 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 that part in production and this person says can you please do it for me a n d I p u l l e d t h e c h a ir a n d s h e m o v e d a n d I g o t i n to t h e c h a i r a n d I ty p e d o u t t h e w o r d I w a n te d c h a n g e d a n d i t is n o t a c a s e o f a p e r s o n who was saying do it yourself. I t is s o m e o n e w h o d i d n o t k n o w t h e r ig h t s p e ll i n g t h a t n e e d e d t o b e r e fl e c t e d . S o th e s e a r e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e y o u h a d t o s a y I a m s e r io u s a b o u t t h e t h i n g s th a t I a m a s k in g y o u t o c h a n g e . v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g s e t u p . We have a Yo u w o u l d h a v e t h e e x e c u t iv e p r o d u c i n g d e c i d i n g o n w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e b u t i t t h e t e c h n i c a l c r e w t h a t g e ts 10 a l l t h e m a te r i a l t o a ir a n d s o m e o f t h e p e o p le w h o a r e s i t ti n g i n t h e c o n tr o l r o o m a r e n o t e d i t o r i a lly s tr o n g a n d s o m e o f t h e m a r e n o t e v e n p e o p l e t h a t y o u c a n r e ly o n i f y o u t a lk a b o u t s p e l li n g e r r o r s o n a ir a n d it h a s b e e n a p e r e n n ia l p r o b l e m a n d t h e r e a r e s e r i o u s is s u e s a r o u n d t h a t b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e th e p e o p le y o u h a v e a n d t h is is t h e q u a l it y th a t y o u h a v e in t h e s y s t e m a n d y o u s t il l h a v e t o w o r k w i t h th e m b e c a u s e there is nothing you can do. Yo u f o u n d th e m i n th e s y s t e m a n d y o u a r e g o i n g t o w o r k w i t h w h a t y o u f o u n d i n t h e s y s t e m . S o w e h a d d u r i n g t h e s a m e p e r io d a n d i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t I h a v e c o m e t o b e k n o w n f o r a n d w e j o k e a b o u t t h i s i n 20 the newsroom. There is a phrase I do not even know whether to call it a p h r a s e w h e n a n e v e n t i s h a p p e n in g . S o w e w il l b e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e e v e n t b e i n g u n d e r w a y. S o t h e f i g h t o v e r t h i s u n d e r w a y w h e th e r i t is o n e w o r d o r tw o w o r d s i s a b ig f i g h t w i t h i n t h e n e w s r o o m a n d i t t o o k t i m e f o r u s t o s e t tl e o n w h e t h e r it is t w o w o r d s o r o n e w o r d a n d y o u b a s ic a l ly h a v e t o g o to Page 124 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 a p o in t w h e r e y o u s a y w h e n y o u h a v e a n o u n fo ll o w i n g th e w o r d y o u li te r a ll y e x p l a i n h o w it is o n e w o r d i n a s e n te n c e a n d h o w i t i s tw o w o r d s i n a s e n te n c e . S o th e s e a r e th in g s t h a t y o u h a v e to d e m o n s tr a te b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to c h a n g e a s y s te m b y s h o u ti n g i n s tr u c ti o n s . Yo u h a v e t o p a r t o f th e t h in g s t h a t y o u w a n t t o s e e c h a n g e d a n d th is i s - I k n o w i t i s - i t is v e r y g r a n u l a r b u t i t i s a b i g is s u e if y o u h a v e p r o b le m s a t t h a t le v e l a n d a s p a r t o f t h e i m p a c t a t a n - a t a n e d i t o r i a l le v e l . I h a v e a s k e d e v e r y o n e t o s ta n d u p a n d b e c o u r a g e o u s t o d o 10 w h a t i s r i g h t a n d w h a t t h e E d i t o r ia l P o l ic y s a y s i n t h e in t e r e s t o f t h e c i tiz e n s w h o r e ly o n u s f o r i n fo r m a ti o n a n d I h a d d e m o n s tr a te d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t m y s e l f . T h e f ir s t i n s t a n c e w a s w h e n w e w e r e ta k e n to t h e B C C S A b y t h e D e m o c r a t ic A l li a n c e f o r a c l ip th a t w e p l a y e d . It c a m e f r o m a n a d d r e s s b y P r e s id e n t R a m a p h o s a a n d i n t h e w a y i t w a s p r o c e s s e d in th e s y s t e m a g a in th is t a lk s t o t h e q u a li ty t h a t w e h a v e in the newsroom. T h e w a y i t w a s l a b e ll e d i t s a i d th e P r e s i d e n t a d d r e s s e s t h e n a t io n a n d y e t t h e c li p w a s a b o u t a n o u t c o m e o f a n A N C le k g o tl a . S o h e w a s a d d r e s s i n g a n A N C is s u e n o t a s t h e Pr e s id e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y 20 a n d it w a s o b v i o u s in t h e t a p e b e c a u s e y o u s e e t h e f la g s o f t h e A N C b e h in d h i m a n d h e w a s w e a r i n g A N C r e g a li a b u t w e s a i d t h e P r e s i d e n t a d d r e s s e s t h e n a ti o n a n d i t b e c a m e a b i g p r o b le m a n d w e w e r e t a k e n t o t h e B C C S A b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a v i e w fr o m t h e D e m o c r a ti c Al li a n c e th a t w e w e r e a g a i n b e i n g u s e d to c a r r y th e - t h e - w e w e r e c a r r y i n g in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m - fr o m t h e A N C w h ic h w a s n o t n e c e s s a r ily t h e c a s e . Page 125 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 I t w a s a f a u l t o f o u r s y s t e m t h a t w e e n d e d u p w it h t h a t a n d it is s o m e t h i n g th a t w e c o r r e c t e d w i th i n th e f ir s t s e v e n m i n u t e s o r f ir s t 1 0 m i n u t e s o f u s a ir i n g t h a t b e c a u s e w e p ic k e d u p th e p r o b l e m b u t i t w a s a lr e a d y l a t e a t th a t p o i n t a n d a d d e d t o t h a t it w a s a b o u t t h e f a c t th a t w e d id n o t g iv e th e o th e r s i d e a n o p p o r tu n i ty t o r e s p o n d b e c a u s e t h is w a s a n i s s u e o f n a ti o n a l c o n c e r n . I t w a s a b o u t l a n d , e m p lo y m e n t a n d o t h e r is s u e s th a t w e r e that were part of that address. So us being taken to the BCCSA it was a b o u t - w e h a d v i o la t e d t h e B C C S A C o d e b y n o t g iv i n g t h e o th e r p a r ty 10 it s - i t s - a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o r e s p o n d - t o r e s p o n d a n d t h e fa c t t h a t w e h a d c a ll e d w h a t w a s a n A N C i s s u e - a P r e s i d e n ti a l i s s u e a s i n t h e P r e s i d e n t o f th e c o u n tr y b u t w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m w a s t h e B C C S A is th e r ig h t m e c h a n is m t o a d d r e s s t h e is s u e a n d w h ic h i s w h a t I s t u c k t o . I w a s t h e n c a ll e d n a m e s i n c l u d i n g b e i n g r e fe r r e d to s o m e o n e is n o t d i ffe r e n t fr o m t h e H l a u d i e r a w h ic h is w h a t w a s s a i d in - in t h e s t a te m e n ts th a t w e r e i s s u e d o r th e c o m m e n t s th a t w e r e m a d e . What w a s t h e p r o b l e m w a s t h e f a c t t h a t w e w e r e t h e n g iv e n a ta p e a s a r e s p o n s e t o w h a t t h e A N C h a d p u t o u t b y t h e D e m o c r a t ic A lli a n c e th a t we should play it because we had played the ANC one. 20 U n d e r n o r m a l c i r c u ms t a n c e s a n d i n t h e c o n t e x t o f th e E d it o r ia l P o li c y o f t h e S A B C t h a t c a n n o t b e d o n e . W e c a n n o t b e t a k in g in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m e x t e r n a l p a r t ie s . T h e e d i to r i a l p r e r o g a t iv e r e s i d e s w i t h t h e n e w s r o o m . W e m a k e d e c is i o n s a s jo u r n a l is ts w i t h i n th e S A B C . W e c a n n o t b e t o l d w h a t to d o a n d t h i s is w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m w a s b e c a u s e I w a s n o t g o i n g t o g iv e i n . Page 126 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 I r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s e v e n a c o u n t d o w n t o 1 2 m i d n i g h t th a t I w a s l e ft w it h s o m a n y h o u r s t o p l a y th is t a p e a n d I w a s n o t g o i n g t o g iv e i n to t h a t a n d i t w a s a ls o t o d e m o n s t r a te to th e j o u r n a l is ts w i th i n t h e n e w s r o o m t h a t y o u w il l n o t b u c k le u n d e r p o li t ic a l p r e s s u r e w h e n y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e a r e m e c h a n is m s t o a d d r e s s i s s u e s a n d w e w e n t t o t h e B C C S A a n d t h e B C C S A r u l e d i n o u r fa v o u r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm. M S P H AT H I S WA M A G O P E N I : T h e - t h e s e c o n d in s t a n c e r e l a t e d t o th e i m p a c t o f t h e c h a n g e s t h a t w e a l s o h a d to d e m o n s tr a te h o w w e n e e d t o 10 d o t h i n g s . T h e r e w a s a n i n c i d e n t i n F e b r u a r y - F e b r u a r y th is y e a r a n d it w a s a p u b l ic - a n d it w a s a p u b l ic in c i d e n t . W h e n th e M i n i s t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s in t e r f e r e d w i t h o u r c o v e r a g e in t h e E a s te r n C a p e . I t w a s t h e l a u n c h o f a p r o v i n c i a l m a n i fe s t o o f th e p a r ty a n d w h e n t h a t i n c id e n t h a p p e n e d t h e r e p o r te r p o s t e d t h e m e s s a g e o n t h e g r o u p . W e h a v e W h a ts A p p g r o u p s . S o w e h a v e a r e p o r t e r s g r o u p a n d I a m i n a l l o f th e m . Yo u h a v e a W h a ts A p p g r o u p f o r r e p o r t e r s . WhatsApp group for TV management. WhatsApp group fo r r a d io management and e x e c u t iv e p r o d u c e r s a n d I e x is t in a ll t h o s e s p a c e s b e c a u s e I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d 20 t h e th i n g s t h a t p e o p l e a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t b e c a u s e t h a t i s - t h o s e a r e t h e p l a t f o r m s t h a t a t t i m e s p e o p l e e x p r e s s w h a t t h e ir c o n c e r n s a r e w h e n t h e y a r e o u t i n th e f i e l d w h e t h e r th e y a r e b e i n g in t i m id a t e d a n d i t is t h i n g s t h a t n e v e r g e t to r e a c h m e o r w o u l d n e v e r g e t t o r e a c h m e i f I w a s n o t p a r t o f th e d is c u s s i o n s a n d b y b e i n g p a r t o f t h o s e g r o u p s I a m a b l e t o a d d r e s s is s u e s o n t h e s p o t . Page 127 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 S o w h e n t h a t i n c id e n t h a p p e n e d t h e r e p o r t e r w h o w a s c o v e r in g t h e s t o r y p o s t e d t h e m e s s a g e o n t h e g r o u p s a n d I r e s p o n d e d a n d s a i d d o y o u h a v e i t o n c a m e r a a n d s h e s a id y e s a n d I t h o u g h t th is is a r e m o te a r e a fr o m o u r o ff ic e i n U m t a ta . S o h o w d o w e g e t th is s t o r y q u ic k e n o u g h a n d th e n s h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t s h e c o u l d d o a l iv e c r o s s i n g a n d I s a i d p u t i t o n r e c o r d a n d I h a d t o s a y it i n t h e g r o u p s o t h a t e v e r y o n e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t t h i s is a d e c is i o n t h a t I h a v e t a k e n a n d t h is d e c is i o n is w i t h i n o u r E d it o r ia l P o l ic y. T h a t w e w il l n o t c o n c e a l in f o r m a t io n t h a t w e h a v e k n o w le d g e 10 o f a n d e v e n w o r s e th a t i t i n c lu d e d a n i n c i d e n t o f c e n s o r s h i p . J u s t o n e t h i n g o n c e n s o r s h i p i t is d e s p i c a b le . Yo u c a n r a t io n a l is e i t . Yo u c a n n o t n e g o ti a te y o u r w a y a r o u n d i t . censorship. Th e r e is n o w a y y o u c a n j u s ti f y I t is a n ti - d e m o c r a c y a n d i t g o e s a g a in s t t h e r i g h t o f t h e p u b lic in t e r m s o f a c c e s s t o i n f o r m a ti o n . T h e r e w a s n o w a y t h a t t h a t i n c id e n t w a s n o t g o i n g to b e a ir e d a n d i t w a s a ls o t o s tr e n g t h e n t h e c o u r a g e o f o u r r e p o r t e r s i n th e n e w s r o o m a n d o u r jo u r n a l is ts in t h e s y s t e m t h a t p u s h b a c k w h e n y o u f e e l th a t t h e r e a r e t h i n g s t h a t a r e b e i n g d o n e a n d y o u a r e a w a r e o f a n d y o u k n o w t h a t th e y a r e a g a in s t t h e E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y o f t h e S A B C a n d w e 20 h a d t o t a k e t h a t s ta n c e a n d I - I a m a w a r e o f th e f a c t t h a t t h e k i n d o f c h a n g e s I a m - th e i m p a c t o f t h e c h a n g e s I a m ta lk in g a b o u t r e l a t e t o e d i to r i a l is s u e s . T h o s e a r e t h e m o s t p e r n i c i o u s a n d t h a t a ff e c t o u r - o u r in t e g r i ty m o s tl y. W e h a d a n o t h e r - a n o t h e r i n c i d e n t i n J a n u a r y. Th is is t h e s a m e w e e k t h a t th e c o u n tr y o r th e I E C w a s g o in g t o c o n d u c t t h e Page 128 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 fi n a l r e g is tr a ti o n w e e k - v o t e r r e g is tr a ti o n w e e k w h ic h w a s t h e 2 5 t h / 2 6 J a n u a r y. This is a Monday and the previous week we had d is c u s s e d h o w w e w e r e g o i n g to t e l l t h e s to r y o f t h e f in a l v o t e r r e g is tr a ti o n i n a n i m p a c t f u l w a y. T h e r e is a g r a p h ic s u n it t h a t w o u l d d e a l w it h o n a ir e l e m e n t s w h a t y o u w o u l d b e s e e in g o n a ir o n t h e d a y, w h a t is g o i n g t o b e o u r p r o m is e l e a d i n g u p t o t h e d a y a b o u t w h y i t is i m p o r t a n t t o g o a n d r e g is t e r a n d th a t . T h is is y o u r l a s t c h a n c e . S o a s w e a r e d i s c u s s i n g o n t h e e le m e n ts o n t h e p r e v i o u s w e e k t h e n o n M o n d a y I a m s i t ti n g o n t h e 10 in t e r n e t s e n d i n g m e s s a g e - m e s s a g e t o t h e p e r s o n w h o is s u p p o s e d to d e s i g n t h e o n a ir e l e m e n ts . H o w fa r a r e w e w i t h t h i s b e c a u s e w e h a d t o u c h e d o n i t in p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t h e w e e k e n d a n d l e a v i n g t h e m e e ti n g I w e n t t o t h e f lo o r w h e r e t h e g r a p h i c s d e p a r t m e n t is lo c a t e d a n d t h e p e r s o n s a y s o h I w a s a b i t d e la y e d . T h e r e w a s s o m e th in g e l s e I w a s d o in g t h a t r e q u ir e d my u r g e n t a tt e n ti o n a n d I a s k e d w h a t is t h is a b o u t a n d h e s a y s o h n o , n o t h e r e i s a - t h e r e is a n o p e n i n g s ti n t f o r a n e w s e g m e n t t h a t is b e in g in tr o d u c e d . T h is w a s 2 1 J a n u a r y. I t is a n e w s e g m e n t t h a t i s b e i n g i n tr o d u c e d b y o n e o f t h e 20 d e s k s a n d I l o o k a t i t b e c a u s e I a s k e d h i m t o p l a y i t a n d t h e n h e p la y s it . Th e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e . in tr o d u c e d . T h is is t h e n e w s e g m e n t th a t is b e i n g I am not aware of it. being introduced. I h a v e n o k n o w l e d g e o f t h is t h i n g N o o n e h a s s a i d a n y th in g to m e . So I then get to a s k y o u s a y i n g th a t t h is th i n g is u r g e n t. T h e n h e s a y s t h is s h o w is s u p p o s e d t o b e o r t h is s e g m e n t is Page 129 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 s u p p o s e d t o b e o n a ir a t 1 0 . Th is w a s j u s t b e f o r e 1 0 o ’ c l o c k i n t h e m o r n in g a n d t h e s h o w t h a t is s u p p o s e d t o g o o n a ir i t is o n t h e 3 r d Fl o o r. I m m e d i a te ly I w a lk e d t o th e 3 r d Fl o o r. G e tt i n g t h e r e , t a lk i n g t o t h e d e s k w h a t is th is t h i n g a b o u t a n d t h e n I g e t t o l d n o , n o t h is is a n e w s e g m e n t a n d w e th o u g h t th a t i t is o k a y t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o i n v it e p e o p l e fr o m t h e O ff ic e o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t o n a w e e k ly b a s i s e v e r y M o n d a y. S o t h i s is a d e d i c a t e d s l o t to c o m e a n d t a lk a b o u t t h e p r o g r a m a n d t h e e n g a g e m e n t s a n d th e w o r k o f t h e O ffi c e o f th e P r e s i d e n t . I have no knowledge of this. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Mmm, how does that happen? H o w d o e s s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t g e t t o b e – h o w d o t h e p la n s g e t fi n a l is e d f o r s o m e t h i n g l ik e t h a t to b e a ir e d w i t h o u t y o u k n o w i n g ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : Th is is w h a t p u z z le d m e t o th is d a y, b e c a u s e I d o n ’t k n o w h o w w e e n d e d u p w i t h t h a t , b u t a ll I g o t fr o m t h e E x e c u t iv e Pr o d u c e r a t t h a t ti m e w a s t h a t n o i t is a n i d e a t h a t w e c a m e u p w i t h a n d w e t h o u g h t t h a t i t w a s o k a y t o d o i t. B e c a u s e i t w a s v e r y c lo s e t o t h e ti m e , a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s s u p p o s e d to s p e a k a t t e n o n t h is s e tt le m e n t w a s a lr e a d y in t h e b u il d in g , o n t h e fl o o r, m a k e - u p d o n e , r e a d y t o g o t o a ir, a n d I a m s t il l 20 s t a n d in g h e r e t r y i n g t o f in d o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d , a n d I h a d n o w a y o f s a y in g w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o d o i t , a s I w a s s t il l s e e k i n g a n s w e r s m y s e l f . T h e n I w e n t t o m y o ffi c e , g o t t o m y o ff ic e , I c o u l d n o t g e t m y s e l f t o watch it, because I knew at that moment that we would have, by having t h a t m a t e r ia l o n a ir i t w a s a v i o l a ti o n o f t h e e d it o r ia l p o li c y o f t h e S A B C , i t w e n t a g a i n s t e v e r y th i n g t h a t t h e P u b l ic N e w s S e r v i c e s ta n d Page 130 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 f o r. A n d b e s id e s t h e fa c t t h a t i t w a s a g a i n s t t h e e d i to r i a l p o li c y o f t h e S A B C it h a d i m p lic a ti o n s f o r t h e r e g u la ti o n s b y I C A S A in te r m s o f o u r e l e c ti o n s c o v e r a g e , b e c a u s e w e a l r e a d y in t h a t p e r i o d . So what y o u h a v e i n t h e r e g u la t io n s b y I C A S A i s t h a t b r o a d c a s t e r s , i n p a r t ic u l a r in t h is c a s e , a s a p u b li c n e w s s e r v ic e , w e h a v e to b e mi n d fu l o f t h e a d v a n t a g e o f in c u m b e n c y. S o w e w o u ld h a v e t o e x p l a in w h y b e f o r e e l e c ti o n s w e ’r e h a v i n g t h is s e g m e n t w h ic h is a w e e k ly d e d i c a t e d to th e o ffic e o f th e P r e s id e n t , b e c a u s e d e s p i t e t h e fa c t t h a t i t ’s t h e o ff ic e o f 10 t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d n o t o f a p a r ty t h e r e a r e is s u e s o f t h e a d v a n t a g e o f e n c u m b r a n c e t h a t w e le t it d e a l w i th , a n d IC A S A i s e x p l ic i t a b o u t h o w t h is p l a y s o u t , t h a t t h e r e is a l w a y s a c h a n c e t h a t t h e s e a t in g , I m e a n t h e p a r ty t h a t’s i n p o w e r c o u l d u s e r e s o u r c e s o f t h e S t a t e to e n h a n c e it s e le c t o r a l p r o s p e c ts , i t i s i n t h e r e g u l a ti o n s , i t is n o t s o m e t h i n g th a t I a m m a k i n g u p , a n d I w a s m in d f u l o f t h a t a t th a t p o in t , s o th e r e w a s n o w a y t h a t I w a s g o in g to a l l o w t h a t t o g o o n a ir. S o th a t w a s t h e f ir s t a n d t h e la s t e p is o d e o f th a t s e g m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ms N o r m a n i t l o o k s l ik e w e h a v e c o v e r e d q u i t e a lo t of ground. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir, w e a c t u a ll y . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) I d o n ’t s e e a n y t h i n g e ls e t h a t I t h in k w e h a v e n ’ t covered. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: M a y b e ju s t to a l l o w h e r to g l o a t a b o u t t h e R e u t e r s I n s ti t u te , y e s y o u m e n t i o n e d t h a t in p a r a g r a p h 3 8 . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : Ye s t h is is o u r b r a g g in g r i g h t s , w e a s a Page 131 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 r e s u l t o f t h e c h a n g e s th a t w e h a v e e ff e c t e d w e h a v e f o r o u r c o v e r a g e o f t h e e l e c ti o n s b e e n a c k n o w le d g e d fo r p r o v id i n g fa ir c o v e r a g e , a n d o f m o r e t h a n 3 0 0 0 it e m s t h a n w e a n a ly s e d , o n o u r t h r e e p l a t fo r ms , o n r a d i o , 9 9 % o f t h e m w e r e f o u n d t o b e f a ir, w h ic h w a s a b ig th i n g f o r u s , a s a n e w s d iv i s i o n a n d t h e r e p o r t b y R e u t e r s , th e y r u n a d i g i t a l s u r v e y a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h is c a s e th e y t e s t n e w s c o n s u m e r s a n d I m e a n w i t h r e g a r d s t o h o w t h e y tr u s t t h e n e w s c o n t e n t , t h e c o n s u m e r a n d t h e m e d i a h o u s e s th e y w o u l d b e c o n s u m i n g t h e n e w s c o n te n t fr o m , o u t o f 3 0 w e w e r e n u m b e r fo u r, w h i c h i s a b ig t h i n g f o r u s c o m i n g fr o m o u r 10 p a s t, w h ic h i s v e r y r e c e n t a n d t h e t h i n g s t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d . S o t h i s is w h a t w e f o u n d jo y i n t h a t h e r e i s a n in t e r n a t i o n a l in s t i tu t e th a t h a s d o n e a d i g it a l s u r v e y i n S o u th A fr ic a , o u t o f 3 0 m e d i a h o u s e s w e r a n k f o u r. It is a b ig t h i n g f o r u s , i t w a s a b i g th in g fo r u s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h is h a p p e n e d w h e n ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: June, it was June. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: J u n e th is y e a r ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u , s o w i th t h e tu r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y a n d th e i n t e r v e n t i o n s th a t y o u h a v e p u t in p la c e a r e y o u h a p p y 20 w i t h t h e w a y f o r w a r d t h a t t h e S A B C is e m b a r k in g o n in s o f a r a s e d i to r i a l m a t t e r s a r e c o n c e r n e d a n d n e w s r o o m a ff a i r s a r e a ll c o n c e r n e d ? M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: I a m h a p p y b u t t h e r e is s e r i o u s w o r k t o b e d o n e , w e s t il l h a v e t o p u t i n s tr ic t e d i to r ia l c o n tr o ls a n d w e s t il l n e e d t o g e t e v e r y o n e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e w o r k o f th e p u b lic n e w s s e r v i c e , n o t a S t a t e b r o a d c a s t e r, a n d i n t e r m s o f o u r c o s t c o n ta i n m e n t m e a s u r e s Page 132 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 w h ic h p e r f o r m p a r t o f t h e s tr a t e g y t h a t m y p r i n c i p a ls w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t c o m i n g o u t o f e l e c t io n s a n d t h e fa c t t h a t w e w e n t t o e l e c t io n s w i t h o u t m o n e y fo r a n a t i o n a l p r o je c t a n d f o r a s e n s i ti v e p r o j e c t li k e o u r d e m o c r a c y w e s t a r t e d w i t h a b u d g e t o f a b o u t R 8 0 m il li o n w h e n w e w e r e d is c u s s in g th e b u d g e t , b u t w e t h e n h a d t o s a y t o o u r s e lv e s i f w e w e r e t o d o t h i n g s d i ff e r e n tl y h o w w o u ld t h i s a s s is t u s t o b r i n g t h e c o s ts down. W e t h e n w e n t a n d lo o k e d a t t h i n g s t h a t w e c o u l d c u t o u t a n d w e ’r e d o w n t o 5 4 , a n d th is is m o r e o r l e s s w h e r e w e w e r e i n 2 0 1 6 in o u r 10 e l e c ti o n s c o v e r a g e , a n d it s ta r t e d t o fe e l c o m f o r ta b le a t 5 4 , b u t w e th e n s a i d w h a t a r e t h e t h i n g s th a t a r e n o t c o r e to o u r e le c t i o n s c o v e r a g e t h a t w e c a n r i d o f a g a i n b u t a ls o l o o k i n g a t th e f a c t th a t w e h a v e in v e s t e d i n te c h n o l o g y, w e h a v e t h e s e h y b r i d v a n s t h a t w e a r e u s in g t h a t e a c h p r o v in c e h a s n o w a n d o th e r t h in g s t h a t a s s is t u s i n d o i n g o u r s d i ff e r e n t ly a n d b e t t e r, s o w h a t w a s n o t g o in g t o h a p p e n is t o h a v e u s i n v e s t in g i n te c h n o l o g y h e a v ily b u t s til l s e e i n g t h e p r ic e o f c o v e r in g e l e c ti o n s g o i n g u p , s o w e n e e d e d t o s e e t h e b e n e f it o f o u r i n v e s t m e n ts a n d t e c h n o l o g y, a n d w e r e v i s e d d o w n o u r b u d g e t a n d s e t tl e d i t to R 9 m i ll i o n t o c o v e r e le c ti o n s . 20 B u t s t il l w e h a d t o l o o k a t t h i n g s t h a t d id n ’t m a k e s e n s e i n t h e b u d g e t , th a t d i d n ’ t h a v e t o b e th e r e , b e c a u s e a ll w e n e e d e d to d o w a s t o t e l l t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n s to r y, t h e s t o r y o f th is e l e c ti o n a n d h o w it r e l a t e s to c i ti z e n s a n d t h e r o l e o f c i tiz e n s a n d d e c i d in g w h o b e c o m e s t h e s i x t h a d m in is tr a ti o n a n d s a y w h a t i s i t t h a t w e d o n ’ t a s p a r t o f t h i s b u d g e t , b u t t h is is n o w i n t h e p r o c e s s o f d e liv e r i n g o u r e le c t i o n s , w e Page 133 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 h a d t o l o o k a t a l o t o f t h i n g s b u t a s w e w e r e c lo s i n g t h e a c c o u n t a b o u t t w o w e e k s a g o w e s p e n t l e s s t h a n R 1 0 m il li o n i n c o v e r i n g e l e c t io n s b u t t h e q u e s ti o n y o u a r e s til l a s k i n g y o u r s e l f i f w e w e r e s i t ti n g a t 5 4 m il li o n in 2 0 1 6 w h e r e d id th a t m o n e y g o , w h a t w a s d o n e w i th th a t m o n e y, i f y o u p r o d u c e a n e le c ti o n w it h l e s s t h a n R 1 0 m il li o n . I t i s p a r t o f t h a t p r o j e c t , I r e m e m b e r i n m y fir s t m o n t h s , b e c a u s e t h e p r o c e s s o f b u d g e t in g h a d s ta r t e d a lr e a d y, t h e r e is a s y s te m t h a t is c a l l e d a n e l e c ti o n r e s u l t s y s t e m w h ic h is m e a n t to p u l l d a t a fr o m th e e le c ti o n s p o r ta l , th e I C p o r ta l a n d p r o c e s s i t f o r o u r 10 s t o r y t e l li n g , s o a d o c u m e n t c o m e s t o m e , i t l a n d s o n m y d e s k , i t is fo r m o u r M e d i a Te c h n o l o g y I n fr a s tr u c tu r e u n i t . It is a business case to p r o c u r e t h e s y s t e m f o r R 2 1 m il li o n . H a v i n g b e e n o u t s i d e t h e S A B C s y s t e m w e k n e w t h a t t h a t t h in g n e v e r w o r k e d . W e a d m ir e d i t w h e n w e w e r e t o l d t h a t o h S A B C i s g o in g t o h a v e t h is t h i n g , b u t w e k n e w t h a t a t th e p o in t w h e r e t h e r e s u l ts h a d t o b e p r o c e s s e d t h a t t h in g n e v e r w o r k e d . 2014 we spent about R 8 m i ll i o n i n th a t s y s te m , 2 0 1 6 w e s p e n t c l o s e to R 1 0 m il li o n i n t h a t s y s te m , i t n e v e r w o r k e d . I t n e v e r w o r k e d , b u t w e w e r e g o i n g b a c k to p r o c u r e t h e s a m e s y s t e m a n d o n t h e t w o o c c a s i o n s i t w a s fr o m th e 20 s a m e c o m p a n y a n d a s t h i s b u s i n e s s c a s e w a s p r e s e n t e d to o u r s e n i o r m e e ti n g s o u r s u p p l y c h a in m a n a g e m e n t p o in t e d o u t t h a t i t l o o k e d li k e it w a s t a i l o r m a d e to t h e s a m e c o m p a n y t h a t p r o v i d e t h e 2 0 1 4 a n d 2 0 1 6 s y s te m s t h a t n e v e r w o r k e d . J u s t t o g o b a c k a b i t h o w i t g o t t o th e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t c o m m i t t e e , l o o k i n g a t th is k n o w i n g t h a t i t n e v e r w o r k e d m y r e s p o n s e Page 134 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 w a s I a m n o t g o in g t o s i g n t h is d o c u m e n t, th e n e w s d iv i s i o n d o e s n ’t n e e d i t , w e d o n ’ t n e e d th e s y s t e m . I t w e n t a w a y b u t c a m e b a c k , a n d I s t il l s a id w e d o n ’ t n e e d th is s y s te m , w e w i ll fi n d o th e r w a y s o f t e l li n g t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n s t o r y d i ffe r e n tly f o r t e le v is io n a n d fo r o u r o n - li n e p l a t fo r m s . T h e n it s h o w s u p d u r i n g th e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t m e e ti n g w i t h o u t m y s ig n a t u r e , w it h o u t m y s i g n a t u r e ! N o w I h a v e to s a y I h a d s a i d t h a t w e d o n ’ t n e e d t h e s y s t e m , a n d I ’ m s it t in g w i th p e o p l e w h o a r e tr y i n g t o p e r s u a d e m e t h a t y o u a c tu a l ly n e e d t h i s s y s te m b e c a u s e t h i s 10 is w h a t i t is g o i n g t o d o , th is i s w h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o n e e d i t fo r. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e p o i n t s h o u ld n o t e v e n a r is e . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Ex a c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u h a v e t h e p o w e r t o d e c i d e w h e t h e r y o u n e e d it o r n o t a n d y o u s a id y o u d i d n o t n e e d i t a n d s o m e b o d y w e n t a g a in s t th a t the there must be consequences. M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w s o m e b o d y is n o t g o i n g to t r y a n d p e r s u a d e y o u a ft e r th e y h a v e d e fi e d y o u t o s a y y o u n e e d i t , p a r tic u la r ly i f t h e r e a p p e a r s to b e b r e a c h e s o f p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s . 20 M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Ye s , a n d t h e q u e s t i o n t h a t I r a is e d a t t h a t p o i n t w a s w h e n t h e s y s t e m f a il e d a t t h a t c r i t ic a l m o m e n t w h a t d i d y o u to p r o c e s s y o u r r e s u l ts ? O h w e h a d w o r k e d o n a g r a p h i c s y s te m , a n d i t w a s l ik e w e h a v e e n o u g h ti m e n o w t o s ta r t w o r k i n g o n t h e g r a p h i c s y s t e m a n d u s e th a t fo r o u r e l e c ti o n s CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I h o p e th a t i t ’s s o m e t h in g th a t i s b e in g Page 135 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 in v e s t i g a t e d a s to w h e t h e r e v e r y t h in g w a s d o n e t h e w a y i t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e in t h a t r e g a r d . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A n d th a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s o f th e C o m m is s i o n a r e t a k i n g n o t e , ja . M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I : J a , w h e n I r e a l is e d th a t w e h a d m a d e p a y m e n t s i n 2 0 1 4 a n d 2 0 1 6 f o r s o m e t h in g t h a t n e v e r w o r k e d , a n d w e w e r e t r y i n g t o p r o c u r e t h e s a m e s y s t e m t h e q u e s t io n I a s k e d w h y is t h i s n o t o n th e S A B C ’s a s s e t d a ta b a s e , w h y a r e w e p r o c u r i n g th e s a m e 10 s y s te m t h a t w e h a v e b o u g h t t w ic e p r e v i o u s ly a n d w e t h e n r e f e r r e d it t o o u r i n t e r n a l f o r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t io n , y e s i t i s b e in g i n v e s t ig a t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e l l t h a t p r o c e s s is s t il l u n d e r w a y. M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r C h a ir m a n , t h a t is t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m t h is w it n e s s , t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g to s h a r e y o u r e v i d e n c e w i t h u s , w e a p p r e c i a t e i t. I f w e n e e d y o u t o c o m e b a c k w e w il l a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , y o u a r e 20 excused. M S P H AT I S WA M A G O P E N I: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . M r C h a ir m a n t h e n e x t w i tn e s s is M s Yo la n d e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s n o t ta k e t h e n e x t w it n e s s y e t , le t u s a d j o u r n a n d Page 136 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 I w o u l d l ik e t o s e e y o u f o r fiv e m in u t e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . We are going to adjourn, and we should come back a b o u t t w e n t y f iv e p a s t f o u r, i s i t f o u r, j a , is i t t h r e e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t w e n t y f iv e p a s t t h r e e , i t is t e n p a s t three. CHAIRPERSON: O h n o , y e s j a , n o , a l r ig h t , w e w i ll c o m e b a c k a t t w e n ty fi v e p a s t t h r e e . W e a d j o u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS 10 INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I a m r e a d y t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h e n e x t w i t n e s s i f M r Yo l a n d e Va n B il jo n . T h e C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r o f t h e S A B C . M a y s h e b e s w o r n in M r C h a ir m a n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e a d m i n is t e r th e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n ? R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Yo l a n d e Va n B il j o n . 20 REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : N o I d o n o t. REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : I d o . Page 137 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th ; i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : I d o , s o h e lp m e G o d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Mr C h a ir m a n i n fr o n t o f y o u y o u w o u ld h a v e E x h i b i t C C 3 t h is w a s e n t e r e d i n t o e v id e n c e t h e f ir s t round of the SABC hearings. CC3. CHAIRPERSON: T h e l e v e r a r c h fi le c o n ta in i n g t h e – I s e e s w o r n a ffi d a v i t . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n a ffi d a v i t i s a l w a y s a s w o r n s t a t e m e n t . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s e it h e r a n a ffi d a v i t o r s w o r n s t a t e m e n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A ff i d a v i t o f Mr Yo l a n d e Va n B i lj o n w i ll b e m a r k e d Exhibit CC3. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . Th a n k y o u . M s Va n B i lj o n y o u h a v e g o t t h e f il e i n f r o n t o f y o u , a m I c o r r e c t? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O k a y. C o u l d y o u p l e a s e l o o k a t t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t is t h e r e in fr o n t o f y o u i n E x h i b it C C 3 a n d p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 5 , i s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n th a t p a g e ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s M a ’a m i t i s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . When you respond you respond to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a l w a y s y e s t h a n k y o u . Page 138 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : O k a y. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o t h e d a t e – w h a t is t h e d a te o f t h e c o m m i s s io n i n g o f t h a t s t a te m e n t ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : I t is t h e 2 1 s t M a y 2 0 1 9 S ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s t h a n k y o u a n d i n d e p o s i n g to t h i s a ffi d a v i t d i d y o u d o s o v o l u n t a r i ly ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : I d i d t h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a r e t h e C h i e f F i n a n c ia l O ffi c e r o f th e S A B C ? 10 M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I a m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: When were you appointed? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : 2 5 t h J u n e 2 0 1 8 . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Yo u r – y o u w e r e a s k e d b y th e in v e s t i g a t o r s t o d e a l w i t h s p e c i fi c m a t t e r s , a m I c o r r e c t ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a ir I w a s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . B e f o r e t h e n w e d e a l w i th w h a t y o u d e a lt w i t h c o u l d y o u ju s t fo r c o n s i s te n c y p l a c e y o u r q u a l if ic a ti o n s b e f o r e th e C h a i r p e r s o n ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : C h a ir I a m a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n ta n t a n d I 20 h a v e g o t a M a s t e r s D e g r e e i n ta x a t io n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . And before you joined the SABC where were you employed? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : I w a s e m p l o y e d a t D e n e l a n d th e n a t t h e R o a d A c c id e n t F u n d a n d th e n f o r a f e w m o n t h s a t a p la c e c a ll e d G la d A fr ic a . Page 139 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: At the? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : A p l a c e c a l le d G l a d A f r ic a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G la d A fr ic a . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : H m . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . T h e n y o u w e r e a s k e d s p e c i f ic a l ly t h e n t o d e a l – o n e o f t h e e n t it ie s t h a t y o u h a d t o d e a l w i th o r m a y b e l e t m e ju s t p u t t h e q u e s ti o n t o y o u . What was it that was a s k e d b y t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : 10 I w a s a s k e d to c o n s o li d a t e tr a n s a c ti o n s w i t h t h r e e e n ti t ie s b e i n g I n fi n it y M e d i a N e t w o r k s , T N A M e d ia a n d tr a n s a c ti o n s w i th o th e r s i m il a r c li e n ts i n te r n a t io n a l a n d lo c a l . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t e x a c t ly w e r e y o u l o o k i n g fo r in c o m p il in g th a t i n fo r m a ti o n ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : P a y m e n ts m a d e o r r e c e iv e d f r o m o r t o th e s p e c i f ic e n t it i e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t a ll o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s h a p p e n e d b e f o r e y o u r t i m e ? 20 M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a ir t h e y d i d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u r e li e d o n r e c o r d s t h a t a r e w i th in the SABC? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a i r I r e l ie d o n o u r f in a n c ia l s y s t e m a n d th e r e c o r d s th a t w e c o u l d fi n d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d – t h a n k y o u . L e t u s s t a r t t h e n Page 140 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u d e a l th e r e w i th I n f i n i ty M e d i a N e t w o r k s a n d y o u h a d c o n c e n tr a t e d o n a p a r t ic u l a r p e r i o d , is i t – a m I c o r r e c t ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n I c o n c e n tr a t e d o n t h e p e r i o d O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 t o M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o t h a t is o n – y e s . A n d t h e n w h e r e w o u l d o n e t h e n fi n d t h o s e d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u r e l y o n i n t h a t p a g e ? Yo u h a v e a reference YB1. M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : 10 Ye s a n d t h a t i s w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h revenue. M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Fr o m – w h e n y o u s a y r e v e n u e fr o m I n f i n i ty M e d i a th is is r e v e n u e r e c e iv e d b y t h e S A B C f r o m I n fi n i ty M e d i a ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a ir i t w a s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h – s o r r y 7 . 2 y o u te s ti fy – a g y o u d e a l w i th t h e fa c t t h a t y o u a r e a w a r e o f t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n I n fi n it y M e d i a a n d t h e S A B C ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : I d i d o b t a i n in f o r m a ti o n t o t h a t e ff e c t y e s C h a ir. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : R e l a ti n g t o th e a g r e e m e n t ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n y o u c o n tr o l – c a n y o u j u s t g o b a c k t h e n to Y B 1 a n d t h e n s e e a n d l o o k a t th e a m o u n ts t h a t y o u w e r e d e a li n g w it h th e r e i n th a t p a r a g r a p h – i n th a t s t a te m e n t ? Yo u h a v e a c o n s o l id a t e d p a g e o f a ll t h e p a y m e n t s , a m I r i g h t a t p a g e 8 , is Page 141 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 that correct? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : Ye s M a ’ a m – s o r r y ju s t a s e c o n d . Ye s C h a ir I d o . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Yo u d o o k a y. W h e r e a r e t h e a m o u n ts r e fl e c t e d t h e r e ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : I t is t h e l a s t f o u r a m o u n ts s ta r t in g w i th R 1 5 9 6 0 0 .0 0 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d a t t h e e n d y o u h a v e g o t 0 0 , w h a t does that mean? 10 M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : T h a t m e a n s i t w a s in v o ic e d a n d t h e n s u b s e q u e n t ly p a i d . S o t h e a c c o u n t is th e n 0 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t in p a g e 8 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s p a g e 8 C h a ir. M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 008. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a w a y o f m a k in g t h e s e fi g u r e s b i g g e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B i g g e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e r e f o r e m o r e le g ib l e . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: D o y o u – c o u l d y o u b e a b l e to e x tr a c t a more legible copy? We can replace it some other time? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : W e s h o u l d b e a b l e t o b e c a u s e I g u e s s t h e n u m b e r o f ti m e s i t h a s b e e n c o p i e d d e g r a d e d t h e q u a li ty o f it i n a n y case. We should be able to. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Correct. Page 142 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : M u s t I r e a d i t o u t p e r h a p s fo r t h e s a k e o f the record? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s p l e a s e f o r t h e r e c o r d , y e s p l e a s e . MS YOLANDE R 1 5 9 6 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 VA N for BILJON: 2000 So minutes the to fi r s t launch one ANN7 would and be then R 1 2 3 1 0 2 .0 0 f o r 2 7 m i n u te f o o ta g e A N N 7 a g r e e m e n t S A B C c o p y r i g h t . I a m r e a d in g t h e t e x t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : 10 T h e n e x t a m o u n t is R 9 1 2 0 0 .0 0 f o r 2 0 m i n u t e s o f fo o ta g e u s e d f o r m a i l S A B C c o p y r ig h t . A n d th e l a s t a m o u n t is R 3 1 9 2 0 .0 0 f o r 7 mi n u te s fo o ta g e J a n u a r y t o Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 a s p e r d e c l a r a ti o n r e c e iv e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e s e – t h e y r e l a t e t o t h e p u r c h a s e o f a r c h i v a l m a te r i a l , a m I c o r r e c t ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: According to the records? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a ir t h e y d o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n y o u h a v e t h e t o t a l a m o u n t w h ic h y o u r e fl e c t a t p a g e 3 i f y o u g o b a c k to y o u r 20 s t a te m e n t . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Y s w h a t i s t h a t t o ta l ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : R 4 0 5 8 4 0 . 0 0 i n c lu d in g VAT. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n y o u m o v e d o n to t h e s e c o n d e n t i ty w h ic h is T N A M e d ia . C o u ld y o u j u s t t a lk t o t h e Page 143 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t w e r e y o u l o o k in g f o r th e r e ? Yo u c a n r e a d fr o m t h a t p a r a g r a p h t h e a r e a s t h a t y o u lo o k e d a t ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : C h a ir I w a s r e q u e s t e d t o c o n s i d e r t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s t h e S A B C e n t e r e d i n t o w it h T N A M e d ia – T N A . We c o n c l u d e d t h a t w e – t h e y s u p p li e d u s w it h n e w s p a p e r s o n a w e e k ly b a s is p e r p a r a g r a p h 1 0 .1 . 1 a n d t h e S A B C p r o v id e d t h e N e w A g e w i th certain b r o a d c a s t in g services and more p a r tic u la r ly o u ts i d e b r o a d c a s t in g s e r v ic e s w h ic h w e r e t h e n c o n d u c t e d a t v a r i o u s v e n u e s a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. A n d t h e n w h e r e d o w e f in d th a t A – YA – Y W 2 i t w il l b e u n d e r – it s t a r ts fr o m p a g e 2 8 . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s , y e s C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s th a n k y o u . C o u l d y o u j u s t r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d t h o s e – b u t t h e s e a r e q u i te l e g ib le . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h e y a r e w i t h y o u C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is th a t ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page… M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : 2 9 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 2 8 is t h e c o v e r i n g l e t te r b u t p a g e – t h e fi g u r e s a r e a t p a g e 2 9 . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : S o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : O n p a g e 2 9 t h e v e r y l a s t li n e i te m is T N A Media. Yo u w i ll s e e tr a n s a c t i o n s r e c o r d e d fr o m 2 0 11 to 2 0 1 8 a m o u n t in g t o a t o t a l o f R 9 0 8 0 3 5 . 5 7 f o r n e w s p a p e r s t h a t w e r e s u p p l ie d Page 144 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 to the SABC over that period. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t – th a t c o v e r e d w h ic h y e a r s ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : 2 0 11 to 2 0 1 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d t h e n y o u d e c i d e d t o p u t o th e r n e w s p a p e r s , w e r e y o u d o i n g ju s t a c o m p a r is o n ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s a c o m p a r is o n a n d p o s s ib ly i t i s i n t h e s a m e a c c o u n t i n t h e g e n e r a l l e d g e r i n o u r fi n a n c i a l s y s t e m . 10 a l lo c a t e d t o t h e s a m e G L a c c o u n t . I t is P o t e n t ia ll y t h a t i s w h y t h e y a r e t o g e th e r t h e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y s o i f y o u h a d to p r i n t y o u c a n n o t j u s t p r i n t fo r T N A y o u w o u ld h a v e t o p r i n t f o r a l l? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : I would imagine so. I see all the SAP p r i n t o u ts a t t a c h e d b u t i t w il l b e v e r y d i ffic u l t f o r m e t o i d e n ti f y T N A b u t a g a in it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e c a n c e r t a i n l y e x p l o r e a t t h e o ffi c e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d y o u h a v e a lr e a d y p u t t h e to t a l t h e r e 2 0 1 8 – t h a t is – t h a t to t a l in c l u d e s a l l t h e y e a r s 2 0 11 t o 2 0 1 8 o f R 9 0 8 0 0 0 ,0 0 . 20 M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : C o r r e c t C h a i r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t f o l lo w fr o m p a g e 3 0 a r e t h o s e – w h a t a r e t h o s e ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : T h a t w o u ld b e C h a ir t h e s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t w o u ld m a k e u p t h e t o t a ls t h e r e w h a t – i t i s n o t c l e a r b e c a u s e th e r e a r e n o v is ib le t o ta ls i s – I p r e s u m e i t m a k e s u p t h e R 9 0 8 Page 145 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 b u t I – b e c a u s e t h e t o ta ls a r e n o t v i s i b l e o r n o t r e fl e c t e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : W e w i ll h a v e t o c h e c k a t th e o ffic e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O k a y b u t th e y w i ll t a l k t o t h e t o t a ls t h a t you have on that page? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s , A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : A n d it s tr e t c h e s a n u m b e r o f y e a r s . If o n e c a n l o o k a t t h e p o s t in g d a t e s f o r e x a m p le s o I t a k e i t i t m a k e s u p 10 t h e v a lu e s t h a t i s r e f l e c te d i n th a t ta b le . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 0 .4 – s o r r y if y o u g o b a c k to y o u r s t a te m e n t . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : H m . In – i n t h is p a r a g r a p h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : A n d t h e i n f o r m a ti o n p r o v i d e d h e r e i t is c le a r th a t t h e S A B C o r w e s t a te th a t t h e S A B C w a s n e v e r p a id n o r d i d t h e S A B C i n v o i c e N e w A g e f o r a n y o f t h e s o c a ll e d b r e a k f a s t s h o w s o r a n y o t h e r o u tc a s t b r o a d c a s t i n g s e r v i c e s w h ic h w e r e r e n d e r e d b y th e SABC to the New Age. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o t h e o u t s i d e b r o a d c a s ti n g s e r v i c e s t h a t is w h e r e t h e j o u r n a lis t s a s M s M a g o p e n i h a s te s t i fi e d i f a j o u r n a lis t g o e s o u t e q u ip m e n t a n d th e a ir ti m e a n d e v e r y t h in g e l s e . S o t h e y w e r e n e v e r i n v o ic e d f o r t h a t ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : No. I t is a c o m b in a ti o n o f s e r v ic e s . E v e r y th i n g fr o m th e r e n t a l o f t h e p r e m is e s , te c h n i c a l e q u i p m e n t, Page 146 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 s a t e ll i te f e e d , tr a v e l li n g , t r a n s p o r t a n d a h o s t o f o th e r t h i n g s t h a t i s n e c e s s a r y t o e n s u r e t h a t w e a r e a b l e t o b r o a d c a s t e x a c t ly l ik e M s M a g o p e n i s t a te d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o t h e – T N A M e d i a w a s in v o ic in g th e S A B C f o r the New Age and SABC was paying for the newspapers but SABC was n o t i n v o ic in g TN A f o r t h e s e o u ts i d e b r o a d c a s ts a n d th e r e fo r e TN A w a s n o t p a y i n g a n y t h i n g t h e y w e r e h a v i n g t h o s e f o r fr e e ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s C h a ir t h a t is w h a t o n e c a n d e d u c t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d t h e n in 1 0 . 5 y o u h a v e s o m e f i g u r e s t h e r e a n d y o u h a v e t o ta ll e d th e m a n d y o u d e a l w i t h t h e m in Y B 3 . W h a t is r e fl e c t e d i n Y B 3 ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : S o in Y B 3 i s a c o l le c t i o n o f t h e c o s ts fo r t h e s e o u ts i d e b r o a d c a s t e r s t h a t w a s p r o v i d e d t o N e w A g e . I t a m o u n t s t o a t o t a l o f R 4 2 6 8 8 8 7 . 0 0 e x c lu d in g VAT. T h e r e is a t a b le th a t w a s p r e p a r e d a n d i t s tr e t c h e s fr o m 2 0 11 to 2 0 1 7 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : I a m o n Y V B 0 3 0 p a g e 3 8 . A n d i n te r m s o f 20 t h e ty p e s o f c o s ts a r e t h e th in g s t h a t I h a v e j u s t r e fe r r e d t o f r o m t h e r e n t a l, t e c h n ic a l e q u i p m e n t e tc e te r a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . S o a ll t h e s e r e n t a l o f fa c i li ti e s a s r e fl e c t e d fr o m p a g e 3 9 o n w a r d s s o t h e s e a r e a ll th e c o s ts th a t t h e S A B C i n c u r r e d b u t n e v e r r e c o u p e d th o s e e x p e n s e s ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : C o r r e c t C h a i r. Page 147 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : I h o p e t h a t t h e – w e w i ll h a v e a w i t n e s s w h o w il l s a y w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h i s w a s n o t fo r fr e e t o T N A . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e i t is i m p o r t a n t a n d I a s s u m e a t S A B C i t o u g h t t o b e e a s y to k n o w. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h o w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e p e r s o n w h o s h o u l d h a v e made sure that no 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t t h e y a r e b i ll e d . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t n o f r e e s e r v ic e w a s p r o v i d e d fo r w h i c h s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d f o r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . A n d th e n y o u a ls o w e r e a s k e d b y t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s t o a ls o d e a l w i t h o th e r c o m m e r c ia l c li e n t s . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : I n d e e d C h a i r I w a s a s k e d t o a ls o r e v ie w o u r r e c o r d s r e l a ti n g t o a n y o th e r tr a n s a c ti o n s b e t w e e n c o m m e r c i a l 20 c li e n t s t h a t h a v e b e e n b u y i n g n e w s a r c h iv e s . I t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t th e r a t i o n a le w a s t o d e t e r m in e w h e th e r th e p r ic i n g w h ic h w a s p r o v i d e d t o In f in i ty w a s b e l o w t h e m a r k e t r a te . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : A n d a s s u c h w e d i d p u t t o g e t h e r a t a b l e t h a t s p e a k s to s o m e o f o u r c o m m e r c ia l c l i e n ts w e c o u l d i d e n t if y. Page 148 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d w h a t d i d y o u f in d in y o u r c o m p a r is o n ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : S o t h e t a b l e w h ic h is r e fl e c t e d o n p a g e 169. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : R e fl e c ts a n u m b e r o f o r g a n is a t i o n s b e t w e e n y e a r s 2 0 11 t o 2 0 1 5 a n d t h e k i n d o f v a lu e s t h a t th e y p a i d . C o m p a n ie s i n c l u d e A l ja z e e r a , Z E F, G e r m a n T V, R e u te r s Te l e v is i o n , A s s o c ia t e d P r e s s T V a s w e l l a s s o m e lo c a l b r o a d c a s t e r s . W e i n c l u d e 10 t h e v a l u e s th e r e . M y ta s k w a s h o w e v e r n o t t o d o t h e c o m p a r i s o n o f t h e p r i c i n g i t w a s m e r e ly to r e c o r d th a t th e r e w e r e s a l e s i n th is r e s p e c t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d t h a t is b a s ic a lly t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u t e n d e r e d a s r e q u e s te d a t t h e t i m e b y th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s ? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : C o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d y o u w e r e n o t o t h e r th a n th o s e r e q u e s ts y o u w e r e n o t a s k e d to a n a l y s e a n y t h i n g f u r t h e r t h a n w h a t y o u have put up? M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I L J O N : N o t w it h r e s p e c t to t h e t r a n s a c t in g w i t h t h e s e e n t i ti e s n o . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n t h a t i s t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m t h is w i t n e s s . CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r c o m in g t o g iv e y o u r evidence you are now excused. Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman that – those are t h e w i t n e s s e s f o r t h e d a y. Page 149 of 150 03 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 155 CHAIRPERSON: For today? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a lr i g h t . How many have we got tomorrow w i t n e s s e s fo r t o m o r r o w ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I t h i n k th e r e is f o u r t h a t w e h a v e o n t h e lis t fo r t o m o r r o w C h a ir. F o u r w it n e s s e s . CHAIRPERSON: Four? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s fo u r. C H A I R P E R S O N : F o u r. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s t h e y a r e a ll s h o r t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th e r e is o n e w h o m i g h t b e l o n g e r b u t t h e o th e r s a r e n o t l o n g w i t n e s s e s y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B u t I t h i n k w e c o u ld – o t h e r s a r e f a i r ly fl e x ib l e i f w e f in d t h a t w e f in is h t h o s e e a r ly w e c o u ld m o v e o n e o r tw o o f t h e w i tn e s s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Up yes thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. W e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y a n d t o m o r r o w w e w il l s t a r t a t te n o ’c l o c k . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 4 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9 Page 150 of 150