C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

04 FEBRUARY 2020

D AY 2 0 6

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 4 FEBRUARY 2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

L e t u s h a v e M r P h a tl a n e ta k e a n o a t h a g a i n

b e c a u s e I t h in k t h e r e h a s b e e n q u it e s o m e ti m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R P H AT L A N E: D a n ie l K a g is o P h a t l a n e .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n s i n t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
M R P H AT L A N E: N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s o le m n ly a ffi r m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g i v e

s h a l l b e th e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p le a s e
r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u ly a ffi r m ?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t r u ly a ffir m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f I m a y m a k e o n e r e q u e s t ? J u s t b e f o r e
20

w e c o m m e n c e w i th – w e ll r e c o m m e n c e w i t h Mr P h a tl a n e ’s e v id e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s

h e r e w it h u s t o d a y a n d I s u g g e s t i t m ig h t m a k e s e n s e t o h a v e t h e m a l l
p l a c e t h e m s e l v e s o n r e c o r d a t th e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e p r o c e e d i n g s
t o d a y.

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f t h a t s u i t s ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t t h e y r e l a te t o e i t h e r

witnesses.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O r i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s w h o w i ll b e i m p l ic a t e d b y

w i t n e s s e s to c o m e l a t e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e a t th e . . .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h a t t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON: At that time yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l d o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr P h a tl a n e t h a n k y o u f o r r e t u r n i n g t o c o m p l e t e
y o u r e v id e n c e to d a y. Yo u m a y r e c a ll w h e r e w e e n d e d o ff la s t t i m e w a s

20

w e h a d tr a c k e d th a t m o v e i n t h e a g r e e m e n t s th a t w e r e c o n c l u d e d
b e t w e e n Tr a n s n e t a n d T N A fr o m th e m b e i n g d e s c r ib e d a s s p o n s o r s h i p
a g r e e m e n ts t o b e i n g d e s c r i b e d a s p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t s .

Do you

r e c a l l th a t?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d o n e o f t h e fi r s t m e m o r a n d a t h a t in c l u d e s

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t h a t c h a n g e i n l a n g u a g e w a s i n f a c t c o m p il e d b y y o u , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R P H AT L A N E: W h i c h – w h ic h o n e i f y o u m a y r e fr e s h m e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O f c o u r s e l e t m e t a k e y o u to i t.

It is the

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u w i ll fi n d a t – a p o l o g i e s –
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e j u s t to – fo r t h e r e c o r d t o r e c o n f ir m t h a t h is

s t a te m e n t a p p e a r s i n E x h ib i t M M 4 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s t h e e x h i b i t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m in d e e d in d e b t e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r P h a tl a n e l e t m e t a k e y o u to i t . I t is t h e o n e
t h a t y o u w il l f i n d in E x h i b i t M M 4 a t p a g e 3 1 , 3 1 . N o w a s I r e c a l l y o u r
evidence last time.
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h is – y o u w ill s e e t h e s u b j e c t o f t h is

m e m o r a n d u m r e a d s , R e q u e s t t o R e n e w t h e S A B C N e w A g e B u s in e s s
B r i e fi n g P a r t n e r s h ip . D o y o u s e e t h a t o n p a g e 3 1 ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

A n d a s I n o t e d y o u r e v id e n c e l a s t t i m e y o u

in d i c a t e d t h a t w h e n y o u d r e w th is u p y o u w e r e i n s tr u c t e d b y M r
S i g o n y e l a t o r e f e r t o t h is a r r a n g e m e n t a s a p a r t n e r s h i p . D o y o u r e c a l l
g iv i n g t h a t e v id e n c e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: I r e c a ll . Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . D i d y o u p r o b e w i t h h i m w h y t h e r e
w a s n o w t o b e t h i s c h a n g e fr o m s p o n s o r s h i p t o p a r t n e r s h i p ?

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M R P H AT L A N E :

I did not probe.

W h a t I d i d w a s I j u s t – i t is n o t

p r o b in g it is ju s t a q u e s ti o n a s s p o n s o r s h ip , w h y p a r t n e r s h i p a n d I d i d
n o t a n a n s w e r.

T h a t is w h y l a s t ti m e I s a i d I th e n r e v e r te d to w h a t I

understand because the – the proposal was sponsorship proposal.

I

t o o k i t w e w e r e s t il l d e a li n g w i th t h e s a m e s p o n s o r s h i p p r o p o s a l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t d e s p i t e t h a t y o u c h a n g e d th e l a n g u a g e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: O h y e s th e w o r d in g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R P H AT L A N E:
10

To s a y p a r tn e r s h ip o n t h e m e m o r a n d u m , y e s I d i d

c h a n g e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e a t t h e t i m e a b o u t
the

change

in

th e

d e l e g a t io n

o f a u t h o r i t y o f Tr a n s n e t b e t w e e n

s p o n s o r s h i p s l i m it s f o r th e C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e r a n d o t h e r ty p e s o f
a r r a n g e m e n ts l ik e p a r t n e r s h i p s ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n . Th e is s u e o f D O A o r D e l e g a t i o n o f

A u t h o r i ty i t w a s n o t a – it w a s n o t a d o c u m e n t t h a t w e w e r e p r iv y t o o r
lik e w e h a v e – o r I h a v e s e e n .

I t w a s s o m e th i n g t h a t m a n a g e r s w i ll

a d v is e u s w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y h a s a D O A o r n o t . I t w a s n o t a d o c u m e n t
that I even saw or knew about it by that time. But we just knew the –
20

t h e n a m i n g o f s o m e b o d y h a v i n g a D O A a n d I o n ly k n e w m y G M r i g h t
a r o u n d t h a t t i m e th e y w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t 5 o r 7 m i ll io n D O A .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u r e c a l l fr o m th e e v i d e n c e l a s t t i m e w e

w e n t t h r o u g h t h e D e l e g a ti o n s o f A u t h o r i ty i n s o m e d e t a il . A t t h e ti m e
t h a t t h i s m e m o r a n d u m , t h e o n e w e a r e lo o k i n g a t a t p a g e 3 1 w a s
p r e p a r e d a n d th e p a r t n e r s h i p w a s a p p r o v e d y o u w il l s e e o v e r t h a t p a g e

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a t p a g e 3 2 b y t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e M r B r i a n M o l e fe . D o y o u k n o w
w h a t th e l i m i t o f h is s p o n s o r s h i p D O A w a s a t t h e t i m e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: N o I d i d n o t k n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t k n o w. D o y o u r e c a ll fr o m l a s t ti m e ’s
evidence?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t s a i d 1 0 m il li o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 0 m il li o n .
M R P H AT L A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

A n d w h a t w a s t h e v a l u e o f t h is a r r a n g e m e n t

t h a t h e w a s b e in g a s k e d t o a p p r o v e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: T h i s is w o r th 1 5 m i ll io n C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h a t w o u l d h a v e e x c e e d e d h is R 1 0 m i lli o n

D e l e g a ti o n o f A u th o r i ty o n s p o n s o r s h i p s , c o r r e c t ?
M R P H AT L A N E: D e f in i te ly.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

M r P h a tl a n e I w o u ld t h e n li k e to

m o v e t o t h e a g r e e m e n t th a t w a s c o n c l u d e d p u r s u a n t to t h a t a p p r o v a l
fr o m M r M o l e f e a n d y o u w i ll f in d t h a t a t p a g e 3 3 o f Ex h i b it M M 4 .

Mr

P h a tl a n e w e d e a l t w i t h t h is b r ie f ly la s t t i m e . T h e p o i n t I w a n te d t o p ic k
u p o n t h o u g h is y o u w e r e a s k e d in y o u r e v i d e n c e l a s t ti m e h o w th e
20

v a l u e o f th is a g r e e m e n t c o m p a r e d t o t h e t o ta l b u d g e t f o r t h e C o r p o r a t e
a n d P u b l ic A ff a ir s D e p a r t m e n t . D o y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t q u e s t io n ?
M R P H AT L A N E: I f y o u m a y r e fr e s h m y m i n d r e g a r d i n g t h a t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I think in the course of your evidence we had

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
q u e r ie d w h e th e r y o u k n e w t h e e x t e n t o f t h e C o r p o r a te a n d P u b lic
A ff a ir s b u d g e t t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n d ir e c t e d t o t h is p a r t n e r s h i p
a g r e e m e n t w h e n it w a s c o n c l u d e d a n d a s I r e c a l l y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u
s a i d y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f w h a t t h e b u d g e t w a s a t th e ti m e , is th a t
correct?
M R P H AT LA N E :

N o t – n o t e x a c t – I w il l n o t h a v e k n o w n h o w m u c h

e x a c tl y w e h a d a s C PA – C PA m e a n s C o m m u n i c a t io n Te a m b u t w h a t w e
w i ll d o . I f y o u c o m p il e a m e m o r a n d u m i t w i ll g o t o o t h e r m a n a g e r s w h o
w o u ld b e a b l e t o s a y w h e r e a r e w e d ip p in g i n t o ? W h i c h b u d g e t a r e w e
10

u s i n g ? W h e th e r w e a r e u s i n g a d v e r t is i n g b u d g e t a n d t h e n t h a t w i ll s a y
y e s w e d o h a v e f u n d s a n d t h e n y o u c o n ti n u e w i th t h a t . B e c a u s e w h e n
y o u w r i te s o m e w h e r e y o u n e e d to a b l e t o s a y w h e r e a r e y o u g e t ti n g
these funds?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R P H AT L A N E : A n d t h e n y o u g e t a d v ic e a s t o w h ic h b u d g e t w e n e e d
to be – we need to use.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u M r P h a tl a n e .

S in c e y o u r e v id e n c e

o n t h e l a s t o c c a s i o n t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s ti g a to r s d id e n g a g e w it h M r
M a k o d e . W h o is M r M a k o d e a t Tr a n s n e t ?
20

M R P H AT L A N E: M r M a k o d e i s E x e c u ti v e M a n a g e r i n C o m m u n i c a t io n s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

Yo u w il l f i n d a n a ffi d a v i t th a t h e

p r o v i d e d t o t h e c o m m i s s io n l a s t w e e k a t p a g e 2 0 0 , 2 0 0 o f E x h ib i t M M 4 .
C h a ir o f c o u r s e w e i n t r o d u c e t h e a ffi d a v i t p r o v is i o n a l ly. I t i s s i m p ly a
r e c o r d a l o f th e r e le v a n t b u d g e ts a t th e t i m e b y t h e p e r s o n a t Tr a n s n e t
w h o w a s a b l e t o s o u r c e t h a t in f o r m a ti o n fo r u s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t d o e s n o t o n i ts f a c e a p p e a r to b e li k e ly t o b e
c o n te n ti o u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t o f c o u r s e i t is o n a p r o v is i o n a l b a s is .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M r P h a tl a n e i f y o u c a n g o o v e r t h e p a g e to

p a g e 2 0 1 y o u w i ll s e e a p a r a g r a p h 4 t h e r e b e fo r e t h e s e c o n d t a b l e , d o
you see that?
10

CHAIRPERSON: I see Ms Hofmeyr that probably somebody did not put
t h a t a ffi d a v i t i n t o t h e f il e .

It is not here but I remember that you

h a n d e d it u p .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h e y d id n o t p u t i t i n a t t h e t i m e a n d t h e n …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir le t m e h a n d y o u a n e x tr a c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m u s t h a v e b e e n le f t l o o s e . Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a lw a y s c o m e p r e p a r e d s o …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t i n c a s e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r P h a tl a n e w e w e r e o v e r t o
t h e s e c o n d p a g e o f t h e a ffi d a v i t o f M r M a k o d e w h o y o u h a v e e x p l a i n e d
is t h e E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e r f o r C o r p o r a te a n d P u b l ic A ff a ir s a t Tr a n s n e t
a n d i f y o u s e e o v e r th e p a g e a t p a g e 2 0 1 t h e r e is a p a r a g r a p h 4 i n t h e
m i d d l e o f th e p a g e . D o y o u s e e t h a t?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n I d o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d p le a s e i n d ic a t e w h a t th e t a b l e b e l o w

p a r a g r a p h 4 s h o w s b a s e d o n t h e a ff id a v i t?
M R P H AT L A N E :

W e ll i t s h o w s t h a t in th a t p e r i o d w e – w e h a d 1 2 0 .3

m il li o n f o r m a r k e t i n g a n d a d v e r t is in g p u r p o s e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M r P h a tl a n e y o u m a y b e w o r k i n g o n t h e t a b l e

ju s t a b o v e p a r a g r a p h 4 w h ic h a c t u a l ly d e a ls w i t h t h e 2 0 1 2 b u d g e t .

If

w e c o u ld f o c u s o n th e ta b le t h a t a p p e a r s a f te r p a r a g r a p h 4 b e c a u s e
t h a t r e l a te s a s I r e a d Mr M a k o d e ’s a ffi d a v i t to th e 2 0 1 3 m a r k e ti n g
10

budget. Do you see that?
M R P H AT L A N E: O n p a g e 2 0 0 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 .
M R P H AT L A N E: I s e e – 2 0 1 I s e e th e ta b l e . T h e tw o ta b le s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s
M R P H AT L A N E: A n d t h e r e is a p a r a g r a p h 4 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
M R P H AT L A N E: O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s p a r a g r a p h 4 s h o w u s b e l o w i t?
M R P H AT LA N E :

20

I t s h o w u s t h e m a r k e t i n g a n d a d v e r ti s i n g b u d g e t f o r

Tr a n s n e t w h ic h a m o u n t – a m o u n t e d t o R 1 3 8 .6 m il li o n . R 1 3 8 m i lli o n
w h ic h is a b r e a k d o w n o f C o r p o r a t e A ff a ir s b u d g e t in t h a t p a r t ic u l a r y e a r
o r fi n a n c i a l y e a r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t y e a r w a s th a t ?
M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t is 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s t h e C o r p o r a te a n d P u b li c A ff a ir s
part of that total budget? How much was it?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t w a s R 7 2 m il li o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . A n d th e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e w e r e l o o k i n g
at at page 33.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir.
M R P H AT L A N E: M r P h a tl a n e y o u r o u n d e d t h a t t o t a l f i g u r e t o 1 3 8 l e t u s
ju s t m a k e s u r e fo r t h e r e c o r d w e h a v e g o t t h e c o r r e c t a m o u n t ?
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If it i s c o n v e n i e n t I w il l j u s t r e a d i t in t o t h e

record.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j a . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h e t o t a l 2 0 1 3 M a r k e t i n g a n d A d v e r t is i n g

b u d g e t f o r Tr a n s n e t a c c o r d i n g t o M r M a k o d e ’s a ff i d a v i t a m o u n t e d to
R 1 3 8 6 4 8 7 9 9 .2 0 a n d o f t h a t o n t h e t a b l e it i s r e fl e c t e d t h a t th e
Tr a n s n e t G r o u p C o r p o r a t e a n d P u b l ic A ff a ir s B u d g e t a m o u n te d t o
R 7 2 8 5 7 0 7 0 . 0 0 . A n d i t is th a t b u d g e t M r P h a tl a n e th a t I w o u ld l ik e u s
20

t o c o m p a r e t o th e p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s c o n c l u d e d i n t h e
2 0 1 3 y e a r a n d f o r t h a t p u r p o s e y o u c a n r e tu r n t o p a g e 3 3 o f E x h i b i t
MM4.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t 5 3 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 3 C h a i r
CHAIRPERSON: 33.

Page 10 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P H AT L A N E: J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r P h a t la n e i f t h e – t h a t is th e fir s t p a g e o f t h e
p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t . B u t i f y o u g o w i t h i n it t o p a g e 3 7 , 3 7 y o u w il l
s e e t h e t o t a l c o m m i t m e n t t h a t Tr a n s n e t w a s e m b a r k i n g u p o n w i th T N A
u n d e r C la u s e 7 th e r e .

And at Clause 7.1 please tell us how many

s e s s i o n s w e r e g o in g to b e c o v e r e d b y th is a g r e e m e n t?
M R P H AT L A N E: W e w e r e t o p a r t n e r w it h T N A fo r 1 5 s e s s io n s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And what would the total cost be of those 15

sessions?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t w il l b e R 1 5 m il li o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

M r P h a tl a n e I d i d a q u ic k

c a l c u l a ti o n o v e r n ig h t a s t o w h a t p r o p o r t i o n o f t h e C o r p o r a t e a n d P u b lic
A ff a ir s b u d g e t o f R 7 2 . 8 m il li o n R 1 5 mi ll i o n is . A n d y o u c a n t e l l m e i f
y o u d is a g r e e . B u t m y c a l c u la t o r i n d ic a te d t h a t i t i s 2 0 % o f t h e b u d g e t .
D o y o u h a v e a n y r e a s o n to d i s a g r e e w i th t h a t ?
M R P H AT L A N E: N o le t m e a p p ly m y m a t h e m a ti c a l s k il ls fir s t ly.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
20

M R P H AT L A N E: B e f o r e I a g r e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll it m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e if s h e is s a y s a b o u t ?
M R P H AT L A N E: O h n o j u s t – j u s t to b e s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C e r t a i n ly.

W e l l y o u c a n d o t h e c a lc u l a ti o n i n

due course.

Page 11 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a s s u m i n g t h a t R 1 5 m i ll i o n i s 2 0 % o f R 7 2 .8
m il li o n o r t h e r e a b o u t s w h a t w o u l d – w o u l d y o u r e g a r d th a t a s a
s ig n if ic a n t p o r ti o n o f th e b u d g e t ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

W e l l I w o u l d n o t s a y s i g n i fic a n t p a r t o f t h e b u d g e t.

L ik e I s a i d th e n a t u r e o f – o f th e s e – t h i s t r a n s a c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr P h a tl a n e .
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

If i t is 2 0 % it m u s t b e s ig n if ic a n t.

20% of anything

m u s t b e s i g n i fi c a n t .
M R P H AT L A N E: I w il l – u n l e s s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t i n s i g n i fic a n t.
M R P H AT L A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n m a y b e I – i f y o u c o u ld a l l o w ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P H AT L A N E: I r e s p o n d f ir s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y j a . O k a y.
M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s . Ye s it – C h a ir p e r s o n 2 0 % i s s ig n if ic a n t a m o u n t
b u t I a m ta lk in g i n r e l a ti o n t o t h is tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .
W e – I h a d s a id e a r l i e r th e – th e in t e r e s ti n g p a r t a b o u t t h is tr a n s a c ti o n

20

is th a t it – i t w a s l o a d e d i n t h e s e n s e t h a t i t h a d a n e le m e n t o f
a d v e r t is in g . I t h a d a n e le m e n t o f m e d i a r e la ti o n s . I t h a d a n e le m e n t o f
s t a k e h o ld e r r e l a ti o n s .

W h i c h t h e s e a r e – a r e d a y t o d a y a c t iv it i e s o f

c o m m u n ic a ti o n s . S o i n e s s e n c e y o u w i ll h a v e – e v e n a b o u t 5 0 % o f th e
b u d g e t g o i n g t o w a r d s t h e s e a c ti v i ti e s . T h a t is w h y w h e n C h a i r y o u a s k
if i t w a s s i g n i fi c a n t I a m – I a m a b l e to s a y y e s b e c a u s e th is a m o u n t i t

Page 12 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
is a n a m o u n t t h a t i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n u s e d a l s o e v e n f o r o t h e r a c ti v i ti e s
a r o u n d p r o m o ti o n o f th e b r a n d .

But yes part if it goes maybe to one

e n t i ty I c a n s a y it is s ig n i f ic a n t in t h a t s e n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M r P h a tl a n e if w e c a n t h e n m o v e t o t h e y e a r

2 0 1 4 in th e c h r o n o l o g y a t p a g e 5 0 , 5 0 o f M M – E x h i b i t M M 4 . W h a t is
that document?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t is a s p o n s o r s h ip p r o p o s a l fr o m T N A M e d i a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s i ts d a t e ?
10

M R P H AT L A N E: 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h o w d o T N A e n ti tl e th is l e t t e r t o Tr a n s n e t ?
MR

P H AT L A N E :

I t c a ll e d i t t h e N e w A g e

Business

Breakfast

Sponsorship.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o a t th is s t a g e T N A w a s s t il l u s i n g t h e

la n g u a g e o f s p o n s o r s h ip , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e i t is q u i t e a

d e t a i l e d p r o p o s a l a s w e h a v e r e a d i t. I w o u l d li k e t o p ic k i t u p a t p a g e
5 2 , 5 2 . B e c a u s e o n t h a t p a g e t h e r e is a h e a d in g P r o p o s a l S u m m a r y, d o
20

you see that?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s I d o C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w il l y o u r e a d in t o t h e r e c o r d w h a t t h e fir s t
li n e s a y s u n d e r t h a t p r o p o s a l s u m m a r y ?
M R P H AT L A N E:
“ L i v e t e l e v is i o n e x p o s u r e to b e … ”

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s M r P h a tl a n e j u s t a b o v e t h a t t h e r e is
a n i ta lis e d s e n t e n c e .
M R P H AT L A N E: O h .
“ T h e s p o n s o r w il l r e c e iv e th e f o l lo w in g m a r k e ti n g a n d
b r a n d i n g b e n e f i ts . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n g o o n p l e a s e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: R i g h t .
“ O n e l iv e t e l e v is i o n e x p o s u r e t o m i ll io n s o f S o u t h
A fr ic a n s a c r o s s t h e n a t io n . T h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s
a r e b r o a d c a s t liv e o n S A B C M o r n in g L iv e F l e x i

10

Program between 7 to 9.

While the audience reach

fl u c t u a t e s o v e r th e c o u r s e o f t h is b r o a d c a s t a s is t h e
n a t u r e o f t e l e v is i o n o v e r t h r e e m i ll io n v ie w e r s a r e
reached at peak time across the two hour broadcast.”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C o u ld w e s t o p t h e r e ? D i d y o u t a k e
a n y s t e p s w h e n y o u w o u ld r e c e iv e t h e s e p r o p o s a l s fr o m TN A t o v e r i fy
t h e f a c ts th a t th e y w e r e s e t t in g o u t i n th e p r o p o s a l s ?
M R P H AT LA N E :

W e w i ll d o s o C h a ir p e r s o n b u t l e t – w e w il l c a ll t h e

S A B C d e p a r t m e n t – m a r k e t i n g d e p a r t m e n t s a n d tr y t o fi n d – b e fo r e w e
20

d o a m e m o r a n d u m a s t o w h a t – w h a t is th e a v e r a g e r a t in g s o f t h i s
s h o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R P H AT L A N E: W h o – w e w i ll d o s o s o m e ti m e s y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u r e m e m b e r d o i n g i t i n 2 0 1 4 o r p r io r t o

that?

Page 14 of 204

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M R P H AT L A N E : I f I c o u ld l o o k a t – a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t I c o m p il e d
it c a n b e a b l e t o h e lp m e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d . T h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u c o m p i le
a p p e a r s t h e r e a f t e r b u t th a t w a s i n r e l a ti o n to a n a d - h o c b r ie f in g
s e s s i o n . T h e o n e th a t d e a ls w i th a c tu a lly t h i s p r o p o s a l y o u w i ll fi n d a t
page 52 – 53 apologies.
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s . T h a t is t h e a d - h o c a n d t h e n th e o n e
f o r t h e f u ll a g r e e m e n t is a t 5 5 . D o y o u h a v e t h a t?
10

M R P H AT L A N E: I h a v e th a t C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i f y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 3 t h e r e th a t i s

w h e r e y o u p i c k u p t h e is s u e o f v ie w e r s h i p .

Can you tell us what you

wrote there?
M R P H AT L A N E: M a y b e i f I m a y s t a r t a t 3 if y o u a ll o w m e C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
M R P H AT L A N E: T h e n a n d 4 .
“Corporate

and

P u b li c A ff a ir s

b e l ie v e s

th a t

th e

p a r t n e r s h i p w il l p r o v id e Tr a n s n e t w i t h a n o p p o r t u n i ty
f o r m e d ia e x p o s u r e t h r o u g h S A B C ’s c o v e r a g e o f
20

t h e s e b r ie f in g s e s s i o n o n M o r n i n g L iv e s h o w w i t h a
v ie w e r s h ip t h a t v a r ie s b e t w e e n 2 t o 3 m il li o n p e o p l e .
O v e r th e p a s t th ir te e n y e a r s t h e s h o w h a s b e c o m e
t h e b ig g e s t a n d l o n g e s t r u n n in g m o r n i n g s h o w i n th e
c o u n tr y. ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . S o r r y th a t is th e p a r a g r a p h I w a s

Page 15 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
in t e r e s te d i n j u s t t o p ic k u p o n t h e p o in t i n th e p r o p o s a l .
M R P H AT L A N E: y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h a d y o u i n d e p e n d e n tly v e r i fi e d t h o s e f a c t s ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s I c a l le d – I c a l le d t h e S A B C

m a r k e t in g

d e p a r t m e n t. Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n ,
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e r e c e i v e d e v i d e n c e p r e v io u s ly fr o m M r
P r e t o r i u s fr o m Es k o m w h o h a d a s k e d th e m e d i a a g e n t th a t w a s w o r k i n g
f o r E s k o m a t t h e r e l e v a n t t i m e t o g i v e v i e w e r s h i p i n f o r m a t io n r e la t in g t o
t h e M o r n i n g L iv e s h o w. I w o u l d lik e t o j u s t t e l l y o u w h a t h is e v id e n c e
10

w a s f o r y o u r c o m m e n t o n i t . B u t C h a ir I d o u n d e r s ta n d i t i s g o i n g to b e
a s p e c t t h a t w i ll a ls o b e d e a l t w i th m o r e f u lly i n th e S A B C e v id e n c e
w h e n it r e t u r n s .

B u t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s w e h a v e b e fo r e t h e

c o m m i s s io n e v i d e n c e a l r e a d y i n r e l a ti o n t o th o s e fi g u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I w o u ld l ik e t o t h e n ju s t b e a b l e t o p u t t o
M r P h a tl a n e w h a t M r P r e t o r iu s s a id ? F o r t h e r e c o r d C h a ir M r P r e t o r i u s ’
e v i d e n c e o n th is c a n b e f o u n d i n Ex h ib i t M M 1 a t p a g e 1 6 a n d it is fr o m
p a r a g r a p h 5 7 .2 i n h is a ff id a v i t.

Now what he had asked was for an

a u d ie n c e p r o f il e o f t h e M o r n in g L iv e s h o w to b e d o n e a n d a d m i t t e d ly it
20

was in 2012.

B u t l e t m e t e l l y o u w h a t th e a u d i e n c e p r o f il e a s h i s

e v i d e n c e i n d ic a t e d i t w a s i n 2 0 1 2 .

I t w a s t h a t M o r n in g L i v e h a d a n

a v e r a g e o f 6 0 0 0 0 0 a d u l ts w h o v ie w e d t h e p r o g r a m .

O f t h a t t o ta l

v ie w e r s h ip 2 8 % w e r e i n L S M 8 – 1 0 a n d t h e v a s t m a j o r it y 7 2 % w e r e i n
t h e l o w e r L S M ’s . H a lf o f t h e a u d i e n c e w e r e n o t a c ti v e m o n e y e a r n e r s
a n d o n ly 2 1 % o f th e a u d i e n c e w e r e w o r k i n g a d u lt s .

Page 16 of 204

D i d y o u g e t th a t

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
le v e l o f d e t a i l a b o u t th e a u d i e n c e t o w h i c h t h e s e M o r n in g L iv e
programs were going to be viewed?
M R P H AT L A N E:

I d o n o t – C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n o t r e m e m b e r i t b e i n g

b r o k e n d o w n t o t h is b e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r t h a t m y G M M r S i g o n y e la
in s is t in g th a t w e – w e v e r if y t h is n u m b e r a n d w e h a d t o c a ll t h e
m a r k e t in g d e p a r t m e n t a n d j u s t g e t a n a v e r a g e a n d t h is i s t h e n u m b e r
t h a t w e g o t b y th a t t i m e . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r u s b r e a k i n g i t d o w n t o t h a t
le v e l o f a d u l t v i e w e r s h ip n o w e d i d n o t g e t t h a t d o c u m e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a r e y o u – a r e y o u – M r P h a tl a n e is i t y o u r
10

e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u r r e f e r e n c e to 2 to 3 m il li o n w a s a n a v e r a g e ?
M R P H AT LA N E : T h a t is th e i n f o r m a t i o n th a t w e g o t w h e n w e c a l le d t h e
m a r k e t in g d e p a r t m e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . D o y o u h a v e r e c o r d s o f th a t ?
M R P H AT L A N E : I c a n n o t – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i f w e – I d o n o t h a v e i t
s p e c i f ic a l ly o n m y fi le . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r w e s ti ll h a v e s o m e th i n g
lik e th a t i n Tr a n s n e t d o c u m e n ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o g o i f w e m a y t o
t h e a c t u a l p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t th a t w a s c o n c lu d e d i n 2 0 1 4 . Yo u w i ll
fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 5 7 , 5 7 o f E x h i b i t M M 4 . M r P h a t la n e d o y o u r e c a ll h o w

20

m a n y s e s s i o n s t h is a g r e e m e n t f o r a n d t o a s s is t y o u p l e a s e f e e l fr e e t o
go to page 61 at Clause 5?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n i t w a s f o r 2 0 s e s s i o n s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t w a s th e to t a l c o s t g o i n g to b e fo r

t h o s e 2 0 s e s s i o n s o f b r ie f in g b r e a k f a s t s ?
M R P H AT L A N E: R 2 0 m il li o n e x c l u d i n g VAT C h a ir p e r s o n .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d a t t h a t ti m e w h a t w a s t h e li m i t t o t h e

s p o n s o r s h i p D e le g a t i o n o f A u t h o r i ty o f th e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: T h e D O A C h a ir p e r s o n s a y s R 1 0 m i ll i o n f o r a p p r o v a l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n I w o u l d l ik e t o l o o k a t t h e
t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e i n th is a g r e e m e n t i f I m a y ? Yo u w i ll f in d i t a t p a g e
6 5 , 6 5 . Mr P h a tl a n e b e fo r e w e g o t o th e c la u s e a s i t e x is ts in t h e 2 0 1 4
a g r e e m e n t y o u w i ll r e c a ll fr o m y o u r p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e I a m s u r e w h e n
w e l o o k e d a t t h e 2 0 1 2 a g r e e m e n t th e r e w a s a c t u a ll y a t e r m in a ti o n
p r o v i s i o n t h a t h a d b e e n s c r a t c h e d o u t . D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ?
10

M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d n o w w e h a v e a c la u s e i n th e 2 0 1 4

a g r e e m e n t h e a d e d E a r l y Te r m i n a t i o n , d o y o u s e e th a t ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u d r a f t t h i s a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h is c la u s e in
it ?
M R P H AT L A N E :

C h a ir p e r s o n I d r a f te d t h e c o n tr a c t b u t t h e c o n t r a c t

t h a t I h a v e d r a f t e d d i d n o t h a v e th is e a r ly t e r m in a ti o n a s w r i t t e n . W h a t
h a d h a p p e n e d i n it i a l ly a f t e r I h a d s e e n th e 2 0 11 o n e w h ic h w a s s ig n e d
– o r w h ic h w a s c a n c e ll e d o u t w h ic h I s a i d i t w a s – it w a s d o n e n o t – n o t
20

with me being part of it.

A c tu a lly I o n ly g o t i t f o r a r c h iv in g .

Th e n I

r e a l is e d t h a t t h e c l a u s e – c l a u s e o n t e r m i n a t io n i t h a s a p r o b l e m . It i s
a ffe c ti n g s o m e p e o p l e . N o w w h e n I p r e p a r e d t h i s I m a d e s u r e t h a t th is
c la u s e is a s Tr a n s n e t w a n ts i t . It p r o t e c ts Tr a n s n e t i n t h e s e n s e t h a t it
w i ll s a y t h a t w e m u s t h a v e th e r ig h t to c a n c e l th is w i t h i n – w i t h i n 3 0
d a y s i f w e f e e l t h a t w e d o n o t g e t a n y j o y w it h t h e c o n tr a c t .

Page 18 of 204

But

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e s i g n in g o f t h is c o n tr a c t w h ic h I – w h ic h I r e m e m b e r
t h a t – o n t h a t – o n Th u r s d a y a p a r tic u la r T h u r s d a y I h a v e f o r g o t t e n th e
d a t e b u t I t h i n k th e d a t e o f t h e c o n tr a c t w o u l d b e a b le to te ll u s w h i c h
T h u r s d a y it w a s .

I w a s i n te r a c t i n g w i t h t h e – w i t h t h e N e w A g e

r e g a r d in g t h i s . Th e y w e r e c h e c k i n g h o w f a r w e a r e – h o w f a r w e a r e i n
t e r m s o f s ig n in g .

T h e n I w i ll s e n d t h e m th e c o n tr a c t , t h e c o p y o f a

c o n tr a c t to s a y, t h e s e a r e t h e c o n t e n t s w h a te v e r. T h e y q u e r i e d C l a u s e
1 2 t o s a y, n o th e y w a n t u s – t h e y w a n t t h a t Tr a n s n e t s h o u ld c a n c e l o u t
t h is – t h i s C l a u s e 1 2 o f te r m i n a ti o n . I – I r e s i s te d y o u k n o w w h e n I w a s
10

– i t w a s m y c o u n t e r p a r t i n T N A a n d m e a n d I w a s l ik e , n o w e a r e n o t
g o i n g t o g o a h e a d w it h t h is if t h i s c l a u s e is n o t t h e r e b e c a u s e i t
p r o t e c t s u s a s a n o r g a n is a ti o n .

B u t b e c a u s e I c o u ld n o t g e t a – w e

c o u l d n o t a g r e e w i th T N A o n t h a t . W h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t i t w a s – t h a t i t
w a s n o w e s c a l a te d t o my G M t o s a y I a m k in d o f d i ff ic u l t o r I a m m a k in g
it d i ffi c u l t f o r c o n c l u s i o n o f t h i s c o n tr a c t .

N o w my G M M r M b o n is o

S i g o n y e l a c a l le d m e in r e g a r d i n g t h i s a n d s a i d , h e y C h i e f t h e y a r e
s a y in g th e r e i s a p r o b l e m r e g a r d i n g t h is .

I s a id , n o t h e – o u r

c o u n t e r p a r ts i n T N A th e y w a n t m e to s c r a tc h o u t C l a u s e 1 2 a n d I w i ll
n o t b e a b l e to d o t h a t b e c a u s e t h a t is – t h a t is t h e c l a u s e t h a t p r o te c t s
20

u s a s Tr a n s n e t t o s a y i n c a s e w e w a n t t o c a n c e l t h i s w e h a v e g o t t o
r e l y o n t h is .

N o w b e c a u s e i t w a s d i ffic u l t a ls o I th i n k h e a l s o h a d

pressure. He referred me back now to legal. Remember before we –
b e f o r e w e e v e n t a l k t o o th e r p a r t ie s i t w i ll g o t o l e g a l t o s a y, d o y o u
a g r e e t o t h is c o n t e n ts , t o th e – o r t h e b e n e fi ts a s u s a s C o m m u n ic a ti o n
w i ll s a y, y e s w e a r e h a p p y w i t h th e b e n e fi ts b u t t h e c o n t e n t s o f th is

Page 19 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
a g r e e m e n t th e y w il l th e n r a ti fy a n d s a y y e s t h e c la u s e a r e o k a y – w h a t ,
what.

Now it had – it had passed that stage.

Now the party on the

o th e r s id e d o n o t w a n t t o s i g n i t b e c a u s e it h a s t h i s . S o I h a d t o r e f e r
t o m y G M . N o w h e r e fe r r e d m e b a c k to l e g a l s e r v ic e s t o s a y, ta lk t o t h e
C h i e f f o r L e g a l S e r v ic e s p e r s o n o r t h e h e a d o f L e g a l S e r v i c e s th a t w a s
M r N d i p h i w e – I w il l r e m e m b e r t h e s u r n a m e . N o w I w e n t b a c k t o l e g a l
t o s a y, I a m t r y i n g t o c o n tr a c t w i th T N A th e y w a n t u s to c a n c e l o u t t h e –
M b o n is o s a y s I n e e d t o c h e c k w h a t is y o u r v i e w.

A n d t h e y – a n d Mr

N d i p h i w e c o n ti n u e d t o s a y n o . W e c a n n o t r e m o v e th is . T h is p r o t e c ts
10

u s . I c a m e b a c k – i t w a s t o a n d fr o . I c a m e b a c k t o m y G M t o s a y, h e
s a y s n o w e s h o u l d n o t b e – w e s h o u ld n o t a g r e e t o t h is c la u s e b e in g
r e m o v e d . A n d n o w I l e f t it a t t h e r e . L a t e r …
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s h i s r e a c t io n w h e n y o u s a id t h a t i f y o u a r e

able to remember?
M R P H AT L A N E :

No he did not say anything.

I t h in k i t w a s ju s t a

p e r s o n w h o w a s q u ie t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R P H AT L A N E: A n d h e d id n o t k n o w w h a t to s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

M R P H AT L A N E :

I le f t i t a t t h a t.

L a te r I w a s – I w a s c a l le d a g a i n t o

s a y, g o a n d c a ll M r N d i p h i w e Si li n g a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e c a ll e d b y y o u r G M ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R P H AT L A N E: To s a y I n e e d n o w to g o a n d c a l l Mr …

Page 20 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e s a m e d a y o r … ?
M R P H AT L A N E: S a m e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
M R P H AT L A N E: S a m e d a y a n d t h e n t h e y h a d - t h e y h a d a d is c u s s i o n .
I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th e d is c u s s i o n w a s a b o u t. I w a s n o t in th e r e . L a t e r
t h e y w e n t u p to 4 9 t h fl o o r t h a t is w h e r e o u r G C E ’s o ff ic e s w e r e . Th e y
w e r e c a ll e d i n t h e r e . M r M o l e fe ’s o ffi c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr B r i a n M o l e fe ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P H AT L A N E:

It was around three.

k n o c k e d o ff o n t h a t d a y.

Th e y w e r e i n t h e r e u n ti l I

So on that day this - this contract was not

s ig n e d . T h e f o ll o w i n g d a y I w a s o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t m e a n t t o b e s i g n e d o n th a t d a y ?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t w a s - it w a s - n o . O n c e - o n c e w e a g r e e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R P H AT L A N E: O n t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R P H AT L A N E: O n t h is - o n t h is c l a u s e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t I m e a n is …
M R P H AT L A N E: W e w i ll g o a h e a d . I t w il l - i t w i ll …
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t - w h a t I m e a n i s w h e t h e r a c c e p t f o r th e

d is a g r e e m e n t o n t h e c la u s e .

T h a t d a y w a s th e d a y o n w h ic h i t w a s

s u p p o s e d to b e - t o b e s ig n e d ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u - y o u a r e r i g h t C h a ir p e r s o n . W e w i ll t h e n s e n d i t

Page 21 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
to the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P H AT L A N E: To o th e r p a r ty to s i g n o ff …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M R P H AT L A N E:

A n d t h e n i t w i ll c o m e t o u s .

So I left them.

Th e y

w e r e s t il l i n - i n 4 9 t h fl o o r. I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e d is c u s s i o n - t h e
w h o le - it - i t w a s a b o u t t h is . F r i d a y I w a s o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w a s t h e f o l lo w in g d a y ?
M R P H AT L A N E: T h e f o l l o w i n g d a y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr i d a y w a s t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y ?
M R P H AT L A N E:
M o n d a y.

Ye s .

I w a s o ff .

I was on leave.

When I came on

T h i s c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n s i g n e d a n d c o n c l u d e d .

I t is - i t is

s i tt i n g th e r e f o r m y a r c h i v i n g a n d I t h o u g h t - if - i f y o u r e a d my
s t a te m e n t . I t h o u g h t i t w a s c a n c e ll e d o u t . Ac t u a l ly b y my - i n m y m i n d
I w a s r e f e r r in g to 2 0 11 a n d I r e a l is e d l a t e r n o .
I t i s n o t t h e 2 0 11 t h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t . I t is t h is o n e th e
2 0 1 4 . Ac t u a l ly it w a s n o t s i g n e d o u t . I t w a s r e v i e w e d a n d c h a n g e d a n d
if y o u l o o k a t - a t i t a s - C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w i ll s e e t h a t it i s n o t l ik e t h e t h e n o r m a l c l a u s e t h a t y o u - y o u w i ll h a v e , b u t a t l e a s t it is s til l t h e r e .
20

I th o u g h t i t w a s c a n c e ll e d o u t, b e c a u s e I - I w a s f ig h ti n g f o r t h is c l a u s e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
record.

Mr P h a tl a n e , if y o u c a n ju s t r e a d i n to t h e

W h a t d o e s t h e e a r ly t e r m i n a ti o n c l a u s e n o w s a y i n t h e 2 0 1 4

a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s c o n c lu d e d ?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t n o w s a y s :
“ S a v e fo r te r m i n a ti o n a s p r o v id e d f o r in C l a u s e 1 3

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
b e l o w.

T h is a g r e e m e n t c a n b e t e r m in a t e d o n t h e

f o ll o w i n g g r o u n d :

by mutual agreement between

parties.”
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e th a t y o u h a d i n s is t e d o n . H o w d o e s i t r e a d ?
Let us just get that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, le t m e ta k e y o u t o i t. Yo u w il l f i n d i t a t
p a g e 2 5 - 2 - 5 . C h a ir, w e j u s t h a v e t o r e a d b e n e a t h t h e s c r a tc h i n g o u t
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e y o u r e c a l l fr o m M r P h a tl a n e ’s p r e v i o u s
e v i d e n c e . T h i s w a s th e s t a n d a r d e a r l y te r m i n a t io n c l a u s e w h ic h i n t h e
2 0 1 2 a g r e e m e n t h a d b e e n d e le t e d , b u t M r P h a tl a n e c o u l d y o u r e a d i n t o
t h e r e c o r d w h a t t h a t w o u l d u s u a l ly p r o v i d e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . I t - i t r e a d s :
“ Tr a n s n e t

reserves

th e

right

to

terminate

th is

a g r e e m e n t u p o n g i v i n g 3 0 d a y s ’ n o t ic e t o TN A
M e d i a . Tr a n s n e t s h a l l b e e n t it l e d t o t e r m in a te t h i s
a g r e e m e n t i n w r i t in g fo r - fo r f a i l u r e o f T N A M e d i a
t o p e r f o r m i t s r e s p o n s ib il it i e s . ”
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e n w e c o m p a r e th a t t o - a t p a g e 6 5 a n

e a r ly t e r m i n a t io n c la u s e . Mr P h a tl a n e , a r e y o u a l a w y e r ?
M R P H AT L A N E: N o . I a m n o t - I a m n o t a l a w y e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I - I o n c e m a d e a n e r r o r i n a s s u m i n g a w i t n e s s
w a s n o t a la w y e r. S o I a l w a y s a s k t h a t v e r y c a r e f u lly b e f o r e I g o a n y

Page 23 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
f u r th e r i n r e l a ti o n t o le g a l m a t t e r s .

C h a ir, w e w il l c e r t a i n ly m a k e

s u b m is s io n s i n d u e c o u r s e t h a t t h e c l a u s e a t p a g e 6 5 is b y n o s tr e tc h
o f t h e i m a g i n a ti o n a n e a r ly te r m i n a ti o n c l a u s e .
I t i s s i m p ly a c l a u s e t h a t a ll o w s p a r t i e s b y m u t u a l a g r e e m e n t
t o b r i n g a n a g r e e m e n t t o a n e n d w h i c h g i v e s n o r i g h t t o t h e o n e p a r ty
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s th e p r e v i o u s e a r ly te r mi n a ti o n c l a u s e d id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To e x i t t h e a g r e e m e n t o n 3 0 d a y s ’ n o tic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d I s e e t h a t - I m e a n i t s a y s - th a t i s 1 2 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : “ S a v e fo r t e r m i n a t io n … ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : “ … a s p r o v i d e d f o r i n C l a u s e 1 3 b e lo w … ”
But when I read 13 …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t a b o u t t e r m i n a t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . N o .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a b o u t c e s s i o n a n d a s s i g n m e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s a y s - th e r e is n o t h in g a b o u t - a b o u t t e r m in a ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n e ffe c t i t w a s s a y i n g y o u c a n o n ly t e r m in a t e th is
agreement by agreement.

Page 24 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a c tu a lly t h a t e v e n d r o p p e d t h e p a r t w h ic h w o u ld

be normal.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h i n t h e p r e v i o u s o r i n th e 2 0 - d o y o u s a y t h e

2 0 11 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: 2012.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

M r P h a t la n e , y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g t o i t a s t h e

2 0 11 a g r e e m e n t i n y o u r t e s t i m o n y e a r li e r, b u t a s I h a v e i t th a t w a s th e
2 0 1 2 a g r e e m e n t . I t is t h e o n e a t p a g e 2 5 . C o r r e c t?
M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

Ye s .

I - I m ix e d th e t w o .

I was

r e fe r r i n g t o th e - t h e o n e o n 2 0 1 4 . I n s t e a d o f t h e - t h e o n e o n 2 0 11 a n d
2 0 1 2 . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 2 …
M R P H AT L A N E: 2 0 - 2 0 …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e i t w a s s i g n e d i f y o u g o to p a g e 2 7 i n
May 2012. Correct?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M R P H AT L A N E: T h i s is t h e m i x …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P H AT L A N E: Th e m i x u p I h a d . Ye s . I w a s c o r r e c ti n g t h a t a n d j u s t
a ls o to c o r r e c t . T h e - t h a t - y o u a s k e d a q u e s ti o n . D u r in g t h i s p a r t I
h a d n o t b e e n tr a i n i n g in l a w. N o w I a m a - a l a w y e r i n tr a in in g . S o i t -

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
it w i s h e d t o b e d i ff e r e n t. Ye s . I h a v e j u s t p a s s e d m y l e g a l s t u d i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . Th a t is g o o d . N o w d i d y o u a p p r e c i a t e w h e n y o u
r e a d th e c la u s e t h a t w a s p u t i n to t h is a g r e e m e n t w h il e y o u w e r e o n
le a v e o n t h a t Fr i d a y ? T h a t i t d i ff e r e d fr o m th e 2 0 1 2 a g r e e m e n t i n te r m s
o f th e t e r m i n a t io n . I n t h e s e n s e t h a t o n e , it d id n o t p r o v i d e f o r a n - a n y
e a r ly t e r m i n a t io n .
Tw o , th e o n ly te r m in a ti o n i t p r o v i d e d fo r i s - w a s if b o t h
p a r t i e s a g r e e d t o t e r m i n a te - a g r e e d t o t e r m i n a t e t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d
t h r e e , i t d i d n o t g iv e - th e y h a d d o n e a w a y w it h t h e c l a u s e t h a t s a i d
10

Tr a n s n e t c o u l d t e r m i n a t e t h e a g r e e m e n t i f T N A M e d i a d id n o t p e r f o r m .
D i d y o u a p p r e c ia t e t h e - a ll - a ll t h o s e d is t in c t i o n s - d i ff e r e n c e s
b e t w e e n th e t w o o r n o t r e a ll y ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R P H AT L A N E: M a y - m a y b e i f I m a y ju s t g iv e a s h o r t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R P H AT L A N E: U n d e r s ta n d i n g . W h e n t h i s - w h e n w e c o n c lu d e d t h e s e
T N A tr a n s a c ti o n s .
phases.

20

L e t m e s a y t h r o u g h o u t.

To m e t h e r e w e r e t h r e e

T h e r e w a s o n e p h a s e w h e r e i t w a s t h e p h a s e w h e r e th e

e m o ti o n s w e r e o f e n t h u s i a s m .

Yo u l o o k a t t h is tr a n s a c ti o n .

It makes

s e n s e . I t - i t w i ll p u t o u r b r a n d o u t t h e r e .
I t w i ll - i t w i ll p r o v i d e s t a k e - s t a k e h o l d e r e n g a g e m e n t
p l a t fo r m .

I t w il l d o t h e - t h e m e d i a r e l a ti o n s .

T h a t is y o u r

2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 w h e r e y o u - w h e r e y o u c o u l d e v e n j u s ti f y a n d I c o u l d
e v e n s t a n d u p a n d s a y I t h in k i t - i t m a d e s e n s e , b u t t h e r e w a s a t i m e -

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
the second phase.
Yo u - a r o u n d 2 0 1 4 / 2 0 1 5 w h e n t h e r e w a s a lo t - a l o t o f
n e g a tiv e - n e g a t iv i ty a r o u n d t h e G u p t a s . T h a t - i t - it c h a n g e d a l s o th e
t h i n k i n g a n d th e a p p r e c i a ti o n .

W h e r e w e f e l t a s - a s c o m m u n ic a ti o n

m e m b e r s . S o m e o f u s . W e f e lt l ik e n o w w e s h o u ld b e s c a li n g d o w n o r
e v e n c a n c e l li n g t h is o u t , b u t w e d o n o t h a v e p o w e r t o d o t h a t .
Yo u c a n o n ly b e a b le t o - t o e n g a g e a n d s a y, b u t r e a l ly d o w e
s t il l h a v e t o g o . D o w e h a v e t o d o ? T h e y w a n t 2 5 n o w. R e a l ly d o w e
go 25? Why do not we scale down, but we had to - it - it was signed at
10

t h a t le v e l . S o t h e - th e e m o ti o n s w e r e c h a n g i n g i n u s . It w a s n o l o n g e r
t h a t e u p h o r i a w h e r e w e th o u g h t th is p l a t fo r m is g o o d .
T h i s a s s o c ia t io n is g o o d , b e c a u s e w it h t i m e y o u h a v e g o t t o
r e v ie w.

Yo u h a v e g o t to b e a b le t o s a y i f Tr a n s n e t a s s o c i a t e s i ts e l f

w i t h a p a r tic u la r b r a n d . W h e t h e r i t b e in g N e d b a n k o r w h a t e v e r. I f th a t
b r a n d g e t s t o b e o r i ts r e p u t a ti o n g e ts to b e a ff e c t e d . W e a l s o h a v e to
r e - t o r e v i e w a n d s a y b u t w e a r e g e t ti n g b a d r e p u t a ti o n o u t o f t h i s
association.
N o w w e n e e d t o e i t h e r s c a l e d o w n o r - o r j u s t c o m p l e t e ly g o
o u t . S o a t t h is - a t t h is l e v e l I w a s a t p h a s e 2 w h e r e I w a s . I t h o u g h t
20

w e - w e s h o u l d b e s c a l in g d o w n o r c a n c e l li n g s o m e o f - o f t h i s .
w h e n t h is h a p p e n e d .

So

T h a t is w h y I i n s i s t e d o n - o n t h e t e r m i n a t io n

c la u s e , b e c a u s e I - I k n e w t h a t i t a ll o w e d u s a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o s a y.
I f s o m e w h e r e s o m e b o d y c a n s e e th a t t h e r e i s a n e e d o r e v e n
- e v e n t h e l e a d e r s h ip o f Tr a n s n e t c a n s e e th a t th e r e i s a n e e d o f u s .
Put of it out.

W e w il l h a v e 3 0 d a y s t o - t o t e r m i n a t e .

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Now as it has

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
changed.

I t m a d e i t d i ffic u lt n o w, b e c a u s e i f TN A s a y s n o .

We - we

h a v e a lr e a d y u ti lis e d y o u r m o n e y a n d w e c a n n o t b e a b le t o - to p a y
your back.
I t b e c o m e s d i ff ic u l t . S o y o u h a v e g o t t o c o n ti n u e . S o I d i d
h a v e a p p r e c i a ti o n o f t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e y w e r e e n ti tl e d t o b e p a i d u p fr o n t f o r

t h is 2 0 m i ll io n . W e r e t h e y n o t ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . M o s t o f th e m w e - w e p a id u p fr o n t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A t th e b e g in n i n g o f t h e y e a r b e f o r e t h e

breakfasts had even taken place?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s th e m o ti v a t i o n a s f a r a s Tr a n s n e t w a s

c o n c e r n e d fo r a g r e e i n g t o p a y i n a d v a n c e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n , I c a n n o t t e l l o n t h a t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P H AT L A N E: I t w a s j u s t in s t r u c ti o n o f p u t t h is t h a t w e w il l p a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P H AT L A N E: I n a d v a n c e . J a . M a y b e t h e - m y G M , b e c a u s e s o m e
20

o f t h e d is c u s s i o n s t h e y w o u ld b e a b o v e m y - m y g r a d e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u - y o u y o u r s e l f d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d a ls o a t t h e
ti m e o r w a s i t s o m e t h i n g y o u d i d n o t p a y a t t e n t io n to ?
M R P H AT L A N E: N o . I - I k n e w, b e c a u s e it - i t c h a n g e s f r o m t h e i n i ti a l

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one.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R P H AT L A N E: N o w w e h a v e g o t t o p a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R P H AT L A N E: In a d v a n c e . S e v e n - s e v e n d a y s . I t h i n k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R P H AT L A N E: S o y o u - y o u a p p r e c ia t e i t , b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u d o n o t h a v e a n i n p u t o n i t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D id T N A e v e r d is c l o s e to y o u th a t th e i r

a r r a n g e m e n t w i th E s k o m r e q u i r e d t h e m t o s u b m i t a n in v o ic e a f t e r e a c h
b r e a k f a s t a n d t h e n o n ly b e p a i d o n i n v o i c e ?
M R P H AT L A N E: N o . I d id n o t k n o w a b o u t th a t C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
agreement.

L e t u s g o t h e n - if w e m a y - t o th e 2 0 1 5

Yo u w il l f i n d t h a t c o m m e n c in g a t p a g e 7 4 - 7 - 4 - o f

EXHIBIT MM4.
CHAIRPERSON: The one we were looking at - at page 65.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Was that 2015?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t o n e w a s t h e 2 0 1 4 a g r e e m e n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o n o w w e a r e m o v in g - y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To 2 0 1 7 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To 2 0 1 5 .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
CHAIRPERSON: 2015?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So the - the agreement that commences at

page 74 is the 2015 agreement.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d y o u w il l s e e a t p a g e 8 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i t is s i g n e d a t v a r i o u s p o i n t s in M a r c h a n d
10

A p r il 2 0 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : By t h e t w o p a r ti e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h o a t t h e ti m e M r P h a t la n e w a s th e G r o u p

C h i e f E x e c u tiv e o f Tr a n s n e t w h o s i g n e d t h is a g r e e m e n t o n b e h a lf o f
Tr a n s n e t? Yo u w i ll f in d i t a t p a g e 8 7 .
M R P H AT L A N E: I t w a s M r Br ia n M o le f e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t tw o f e a tu r e s o f th is a g r e e m e n t I w o u ld
lik e u s t o p ic k o u t . T h e fi r s t is h o w m a n y b r e a k f a s ts a n d a t w h a t c o s t
20

a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 7 9 u n d e r C la u s e 6 . W h a t w a s Tr a n s n e t
n o w c o n tr a c ti n g f o r ?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t w a s c o n tr a c ti n g f o r 2 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d fo r h o w m a n y s e s s i o n s ?
M R P H AT L A N E: F o r 2 0 s e s s i o n s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t h a d g o n e u p a b i t fr o m t h e p r e v io u s y e a r.

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Had it not?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H o w d id t h e y j u s ti fy t h a t in c r e a s e o f 1 . 2

m il li o n ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

Th e j u s ti f ic a ti o n m o s t o f t h e ti m e i t w i ll b e - i t is

a n o t h e r y e a r. Th i n g s in c r e a s e s - y o u k n o w. Th a t is - t h e y - th e r e w a s
n o f o r m a l ju s ti fi c a t io n . I t w i ll b e m e i n q u ir in g w h y t h is . N o w n o . I t i s it is o u r p r o p o s a l n o w. T h e v a l u e is a t t h i s l e v e l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d - d id t h e F in a n c e D e p a r t m e n t g e t i n v o l v e d
10

a t a ll i n th is ?
M R P H AT L A N E: N o C h a ir p e r s o n . N o t d ir e c tl y w i th m e . I - I - m a y b e
they might have with the GM, but not with me.

I do not know of any

e n g a g e m e n t w i t h t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d if y o u g o t o p a g e 8 2 y o u w i ll s e e t h e n o w
f a ir ly in f a m o u s e a r l y te r m i n a ti o n c l a u s e th e r e a g a i n . C a n y o u r e a d i n to
t h e r e c o r d w h a t t h a t t e r m i n a t i o n c l a u s e p r o v id e d fo r t h e y e a r o f 2 0 1 5 ?
M R P H AT L A N E: I t s a i d :
“ S a v e f o r te r m in a ti o n a s p r o v i d e d in C la u s e 1 3
below this agreement can be terminated on the
20

ground

in

Clause

11 . 2

by

mutual

agreement

b e t w e e n th e p a r t i e s . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir, I d o n o te i f y o u g o o v e r w e d o h a v e a

b r e a c h in t e r m i n a t io n C l a u s e 1 3 o v e r t h e p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a t l e a s t th e r e i s a c r o s s r e f e r e n c e t h e r e …

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But as I read this breach clause it relates to

t h e e n t i tl e m e n t t o s u e f o r s p e c i f ic p e r f o r m a n c e , b u t t h a t is a g a i n a - a
p o i n t w e c a n m a k e in d u e c o u r s e a n d s h o u l d w e h a v e t h e b e n e fi t o f
M r Si g o n y e l a o r M r M o l e f e ’s e v i d e n c e i n d u e c o u r s e . W e c a n n o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o d o u b t q u e s ti o n t h e m a b o u t t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr P h a tl a n e …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Well I am looking at that …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Br e a c h i n t e r m i n a t i o n c l a u s e . C l a u s e 1 3 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s e e ms t h a t - w e ll I a m r e a d i n g i t - I w a s r e a d i n g i t
q u ic k ly, b u t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s e e m s t h a t e v e n w h e n t h e r e i s a b r e a c h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t te r m in a ti o n t h a t th e a g g r ie v e d p a r t y h a s n o t

20

t h e r i g h t t o t e r m i n a t e . Th a t t h e a g g r i e v e d a c q u ir e s is t h e r ig h t t o s e e k
s p e c i f ic p e r f o r m a n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, w i t h r e s p e c t t h a t is s i m i la r ly m y r e a d i n g
of it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o te r m in a ti o n i t a p p e a r s u n d e r t h i s a g r e e m e n t
c o u l d b e d o n e i f th e o t h e r p a r t y a g r e e d w i t h y o u . If t h e y d e f a u l te d y o u
c o u l d s u e t h e m to p e r fo r m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is q u i te a n u n u s u a l …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

In d e e d .

Mr P h a tl a n e , d id y o u h a v e c a u s e to

c o n s i d e r th is c l a u s e w h e n y o u s a w th e a g r e e m e n t s ig n e d ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

N o C h a i r - C h a ir p e r s o n .

p r e v i o u s o n e to - t o th is o n e .

W e a r e m o v i n g fr o m t h e

I c o u l d n o t c o n t in u e p u s h in g fo r

something that has been changed at a higher level. So I continued on
t h e p r e v i o u s o n e t o s a y. Th is is w h a t t h e - t h e p r e v i o u s o n e l o o k e d l ik e
a n d i t c o n ti n u e d a n d g o t s ig n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w h o w th e - t h is o n e t h a t I h a v e j u s t

r e fe r r e d t o c a m e a b o u t , b e c a u s e i t is d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h e C l a u s e 1 3 o f
t h e 2 0 1 2 o n e th a t w e l o o k e d a t o r w a s i t 2 0 1 4 o r b o t h ?
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e 2 0 1 2 o n e h a d th e r ig h t t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e t h a t

w o u ld a lw a y s a p p e a r i n Tr a n s n e t c o n tr a c ts a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r
e v i d e n c e , b u t it w a s th e n c r o s s e d o u t . S o th is o n e h e r e - C l a u s e 1 3 a t
p a g e 8 3 s e e m s to b e a n e w p r o v is io n th a t w a s n o t t h e r e in t h e p r e v io u s
o n e . A m I r i g h t?

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M R P H AT L A N E: I t l o o k s l ik e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n , b u t I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h o w i t c a m e …
M R P H AT L A N E: I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a s t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Came about.
M R P H AT L A N E:
c o n tr a c t.

Ye s , b e c a u s e t h e - t h e d r a f ti n g o f - o f th e - o f t h e

I t i s - i t i s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s o m e t h i n g t h a t I s t a r t e d a fr e s h .

Yo u w i ll g e t i t a - a Tr a n s n e t t e m p l a t e - t e m p la t e a n d t h e n y o u - y o u w il l
p u t i n th e - w h a te v e r t h a t n e e d s t o - t o b e d r a ft e d in a n d y o u t a k e i t to
L e g a l S e r v ic e s . T h e y w i ll c h a n g e t h e r e a n d t h e r e .
10

S o I c a n - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h o w w e a ls o a d d e d th is b r e a c h
t e r m in a ti o n , b u t i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n i n f o r m e d b y th e u p a n d in - o u t w it h
- w i t h L e g a l S e r v ic e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I was wondering.

Ms Hofmeyr whether somebody

p ic k e d u p t h a t th e y s a i d t h a t th e r e is a t e r m i n a t io n c l a u s e i n C la u s e 1 3 ,
but there is no termination clause.

So they had to come up with

something …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e s ti ll d i d n o t p r o v i d e f o r te r mi n a ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

No.

Indeed.

I n d e e d C h a ir, b u t c a n I - m a y I

ju s t f o r t h e r e c o r d s p u r p o s e s w h il e y o u w e r e a s k i n g Mr P h a tl a n e t h e
q u e s t io n . I d i d g o b a c k t o t h e 2 0 1 4 a g r e e m e n t a n d I w o u l d j u s t l ik e t o
d r a w y o u r a tt e n ti o n a t p a g e 6 5 , b e c a u s e t h e r e d o e s a p p e a r a l b e i t
d i ff e r e n t ly n u m b e r e d to b e t h e s a m e b r e a c h a n d t e r m i n a ti o n c l a u s e t h a t
w e s a w i n t h e 2 0 1 5 a g r e e m e n t , b u t y o u w i l l s e e i t is a c tu a lly C l a u s e 1 4
on page 65.

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CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes. Not …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t - s o th e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r s a r e d i ffe r e n t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: But …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A s - a s I u n d e r s t a n d th is p a g e .

We have an

e a r ly t e r m i n a t io n c la u s e n u m b e r e d 1 2 . W e a r e a t p a g e 6 5 o f M M 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t s a y s :
“ S a v e f o r te r m i n a ti o n a s p r o v id e d i n C la u s e 1 3 … ”
B u t th e n C la u s e 1 3 is a s e s s io n a n d a s s ig n m e n t p r o v is i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i f y o u g o b e y o n d t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e a C l a u s e 1 4 .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I h a v e d o n e a q u ic k c o m p a r is o n .

a p p e a r t o b e a r e p li c a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P r o p e r C l a u s e 1 3 t h a t y o u la t e r fi n d i n th e 2 0 1 5
agreement …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t a g a i n w i t h t h e s a m e i s s u e a r o u n d s p e c i f ic

p e r f o r m a n c e a s c o m p a r e d w i t h c a n c e ll a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r P h a t la n e , i f w e c a n t h e n m o v e
t o t h e y e a r 2 0 1 6 , b e c a u s e a t t h is s t a g e t h e d o c u m e n t s a t l e a s t i n d ic a te
t h e r e is a n e w C h ie f Ex e c u t iv e o f Tr a n s n e t a n d y o u w il l fi n d t h e p a g e a t
10

page 9-0 - 90 of EXHIBIT …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m i n t e r r u p ti n g y o u . D o n o t f o r g e t t h e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Q u e s t io n y o u w a n t e d t o p u t . J u s t l o o k in g a t C l a u s e

14 at page 65.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e t o w h i c h y o u d r e w my a t te n ti o n j u s t n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is c l a u s e s a y s :
“ S h o u l d a n y p a r ty c o m m i t a b r e a c h o f a n y t e r m ,
c o n d i ti o n , u n d e r t a k i n g , w a r r a n t e e o r r e p r e s e n ta t io n
c o n ta in e d i n t h i s a g r e e m e n t a n d s h o u l d s u c h b r e a c h
b e in c a p a b l e o f b e i n g r e m e d ie d o r s h o u l d b r e a c h b e
c a p a b le o f b e i n g r e m e d i e d a n d t h e d e fa u l ti n g p a r t y

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f a il t o r e m e d y s u c h b r e a c h w i th i n 3 0 d a y s a ft e r
r e c e i p t o f a w r it t e n n o tic e fr o m th e o t h e r p a r ty
r e q u ir i n g

the

n o n - d e fa u l t in g

breach
p a r ty

to

be

shall

be

r e m e d ie d .
e n t i tl e d

The
w i th o u t

p r e j u d ic e t o a n y o t h e r r i g h ts w h ic h i t m a y h a v e i n
t e r m s o f t h i s a g r e e m e n t o r a t la w to c l a i m s p e c if ic
p e r f o r m a n c e w i th o u t p r e ju d ic e to a n y o f i t s r i g h t s t o
c la i m d a m a g e s . ”
W e ll t h e p a r t t h a t s a y s :
10

“ … w i t h o u t p r e j u d ic e t o a n y o t h e r r ig h ts w h ic h i t m a y
h a v e in t e r m s o f t h is a g r e e m e n t o r a t l a w … ”
M a y b e th a t m ig h t l e a v e r o o m …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n c l u d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t e r m i n a t i o n if t h e r e i s a b r e a c h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a te r i a l b r e a c h ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a . O k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . In d e e d C h a ir, b u t n o t a t e r m in a ti o n a t t h e

20

e l e c ti o n o f a p a r ty w h ic h w a s th e i n te n ti o n o f a n e a r l y t e r m i n a t io n
c la u s e . R i g h t . If …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . T h a t - t h a t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e a r e i n C l a u s e 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t is r e t a in in g t h e r ig h ts u n d e r …

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L a w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I . e . c o m m o n l a w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O r m a t e r i a l b r e a c h te r m in a ti o n . C h a ir, i n d e e d

t h e p r o p e r c o n s tr u c ti o n o f C l a u s e 1 4 m ig h t h a v e r e t a i n e d th a t r i g h t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e th e - t h e p r o t e c ti o n t h a t Mr P h a tl a n e w a s

t a lk in g a b o u t t h a t t h e y w e r e r e a ll y c o n c e r n e d - h e w a s v e r y c o n c e r n e d
a b o u t w a s t h e t e r m in a ti o n b y th e e le c ti o n o f Tr a n s n e t i n - e v e n i n a
c a s e w h e r e th e r e is n o m a te r i a l b r e a c h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d - a n d s i m il a r ly e v i d e n c e fr o m t h e Es k o m

w i t n e s s e s h a v e - b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n h a s in d i c a t e d t h e r o le t h a t
20

t h a t te r m in a ti o n c l a u s e w a s p r o v id in g i n t h e ir v i e w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To p r o t e c t E s k o m a n d i t s p r e c a r io u s f in a n c i a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P o s i t io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t - b u t s i m i la r i ti e s a c r o s s t h e e v id e n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e th o s e c l a u s e s a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n

removed from …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fr o m t h e s e a g r e e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Indeed.

M r P h a tl a n e , if w e c o u l d g o th e n t o

page 90 - 9-0- of EXHIBIT M M4.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Yo u - y o u a r e m o v in g a w a y t o t h e

a g r e e m e n t . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m l e a v i n g t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d m o v i n g t o t h e
y e a r 2 0 1 6 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I j u s t w a n t - I d o n o t w a n t t o fo r g e t th is .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r P h a t la n e , i f y o u l o o k a t t h e c l a u s e c o n t a in in g T N A
M e d i a ’s u n d e r t a k i n g .

I t h i n k t h e p r o b l e m w o u ld b e t h e s a m e i n a l l o f

t h e s e a g r e e m e n ts th a t t h e y c o n c l u d e d w i t h Tr a n s n e t , b u t I a m l o o k a t
the moment at page 62.
20

I t a p p e a r s to m e - a n d I j u s t w a n t y o u r

comment.
T h a t T N A M e d i a d i d n o t h a v e a n y o b li g a ti o n th a t r e q u ir e d i t t o
p a y a n y m o n e y o r t o i n c u r a n y e x p e n s e s th e m s e lv e s o r c o n tr i b u te t o
t h e c o s t o f t h e s e b r e a k fa s t s .

A l l t h a t t h e y - a ll th a t t h e - th e s e

a g r e e m e n ts r e q u ir e d t h e m t o d o w a s :
“ To c o n s u l t w i t h Tr a n s n e t o n s e l e c t io n o f s p e a k e r s . ”

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I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t w a s th e r e r i g h t fr o m th e b e g i n n i n g , b u t
a t l e a s t in t e r m s o f t h is o n e . T h e n e x t o n e i s :
“ To i n f o r m Tr a n s n e t o f t h e s e l e c t e d o r c o n fir m e d
s p e a k e r a t l e a s t th r e e w e e k s p r i o r t o t h e h a p p e n in g
o f t h e e v e n t . Th r e e , p r o v id e Tr a n s n e t w it h a t h r e e
m o n th s r o l li n g p l a n n e d s p e a k e r l is t .
maximum

media

exposure

of

F o u r, p r o v i d e

Tr a n s n e t

before,

d u r i n g a n d a f te r t h e e v e n t . ”
I f I c a n s t o p th e r e .
10

D o - d id y o u k n o w w h a t t h i s m e a n t a t

p r a c ti c a l l e v e l ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I k n o w w e ta lk e d a b o u t Tr a n s n e t’s l o g o a p p e a r i n g i n

t h e - i n t h e m a t e r i a l o f t h e - th e b r e a k f a s ts . W h a t e ls e d i d t h is m e a n a t
a p r a c t ic a l le v e l?
M R P H AT L A N E: A t a p r a c t ic a l le v e l C h a i r p e r s o n . I f I m a y s i m p l i fy it .
I t m e a n t t h a t T N A w i ll c o m e a s a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t o Tr a n s n e t to s a y I
c a n h e lp y o u t o b u il d y o u r - y o u r b r a n d . I c a n h e lp y o u t o - t o m a n a g e
y o u r r e p u t a ti o n . H e r e is a p a c k a g e . I h a v e a p a r t n e r s h i p w it h S A B C .
N o r m a l ly i f it is - Tr a n s n e t g o e s to S A B C .
20

T h a t w i ll b e e x p e n s iv e i f w e w e r e t o j u s t p u t a n a d a b o u t
Tr a n s n e t’s s p r e a d a n d w h a t w e a r e d o i n g .

N o w th e y - t h e y h a v e g o t

t h a t - t h a t p r o p o s a l . Th e y a r e s a y in g w e h a v e a lr e a d y c o n t r a c t e d . W e
h a v e g o t a p a r t n e r - a s t r o n g p a r tn e r w h ic h is S A B C .

H e r e is o u r

p r o p o s a l . I f y o u b u y i n t o - i n to u s h e l p i n g y o u t o - to b r a n d y o u r s e l f .
To b u il d y o u r i m a g e . To i m p r o v e y o u r … ( i n te r v e n e s ) .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e i n te r r u p t y o u .
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e s a id a t t h e b e g i n n i n g ?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . To th e p r o p o s a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m t a lk i n g n o w, b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h i s r e l a t e s t o o n

t h e d a y o f t h e b r e a k fa s t . B e f o r e t h e d a y o f t h e b r e a k f a s t . O n t h e d a y
o f t h e b r e a k f a s t a n d a f te r. Th a t is w h a t I a m - I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t n o w.
10

Yo u s t a r t e d in 2 0 1 3 , 2 0 1 3 o r 2 0 11 . Yo u a r e n o w i n 2 0 1 5 , 2 0 o r s o . A t a
p r a c ti c a l l e v e l o n th e d a y w h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h i s o b l ig a ti o n o n
t h e p a r t o f T N A M e d i a to e n ta il t h a t t h e y w o u ld p r o v i d e Tr a n s n e t w i th
m a x i m u m m e d i a e x p o s u r e b e fo r e , d u r i n g a n d a f te r t h e e v e n t .
M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

L e t - le t m e j u s t s a y i n t h a t w e e k

t h e r e w e r e s o m e o f t h a t d is c u s s e d i n th a t w e e k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R P H AT L A N E: Ev e n i f i t c o u l d . T h e y - t h e y w il l s h a r e w i th u s to s a y
w e h a v e g o t t h e - t h e f o l l o w i n g l is t .

S o m e ti m e s t h e y w il l d o .

S o m e t i m e s t h e y w il l n o t . T h e y w il l s h a r e w i t h u s t o s a y w e h a v e g o t 20

le t m e s a y - 1 0 M i n i s te r s w h o w a n ts to s p e a k f o r t h e n e x t s e s s io n . W e
- M i n is t e r f o r To u r i s m , M i n is t e r fo r - f o r H o m e A ff a i r s w h a te v e r.
W e w i ll t h e n lo o k a t th o s e t h a t w e t h i n k m i g h t a p p e a l t o o u r
b r a n d o r - o r a t o p ic o r t h e t o p i c s t h a t w e th i n k w e w a n t t o d r iv e th e
le a d e r s h i p a r o u n d .

S o w e m i g h t c h o s e a n d s a y w e t h in k i n g t h is

M i n is t e r a n d t h is a n d t h i s o n e . T h e n th e y w il l e it h e r s ta r t a d v e r t is i n g

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n o w a n d t h e n th e a d v e r t o n t h e n e w s p a p e r. Th e y w il l h a v e a Tr a n s n e t
lo g o t h e r e t o s a y Tr a n s n e t is s p o n s o r i n g t h is p a r t ic u l a r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t m e p u t m y q u e s ti o n t h is - th is w a y.
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h i s a t a p r a c ti c a l l e v e l m e a n a n y t h i n g o t h e r th a n
h a v i n g Tr a n s n e t ’s lo g o i n m a te r i a l a n d s o o n r e la t in g to t h e b r e a k fa s t?
M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W h a t is it ?
M R P H AT L A N E: O n e , d u r in g t h a t - b e f o r e t h is - l e t m e s a y a r o u n d s ix .
10

B e f o r e t h e - t h e m a i n b r e a k f a s t b e g in s . Yo u - y o u w il l h a v e s o m e t i m e s
a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o a ll o w Tr a n s n e t l e a d e r s h i p t o b e i n te r v i e w e d a r o u n d a
p a r t ic u l a r is s u e . I t c o u l d b e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . I t c o u l d b e th e - t h e G C .
D e p e n d in g o n w h o s e n i o r w e h a v e b r o u g h t in t h e r e .
T h e y w i ll d o t h e r e - t h o s e in t e r v i e w s . Tw o , y o u - y o u w il l b e
a l lo w e d t w o t a b l e s to b r in g s t a k e h o ld e r s th a t y o u w a n t t o b e p a r t o f
t h a t fr o m - fr o m t h e s i d e o f Tr a n s n e t . T h e y - t h e y w i ll c o m e t h e r e a n d
t h e n fr o m t h e r e i t is - i t is t h e n o r m a l b r e a k f a s t a s - a s y o u - y o u m i g h t
k n o w i t C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e e v e n t ta k i n g p l a c e b e in g fl ig h t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . A n y w a y. T h e n th e n e x t o n e is :

20

“ A d v e r t is e

and

promote

the

p a r t n e r s h ip

using

v a r io u s m e d i u ms i n c lu d in g b u t n o t li m i te d t o p r e s s ,
t e l e v i s i o n , r a d i o a n d Tr a n s n e t . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n t e r n e t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o r r y. I th i n k y o u r e a d Tr a n s n e t .

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in t e r n e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h ( l a u g h in g ) , j a I n t e r n e t , y o u ’r e r ig h t , p r o v i d e

h i g h e s t p r o fi le s t o i d e n t i fy Tr a n s n e t a n d Tr a n s n e t’s l o g o s h a l l a p p e a r
o n a l l 1 0 A m e tr e w e b s i t e p a g e s , c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , a n n o u n c e m e n ts ,
p o s te r s , d is p l a y s , s u p p o r t v e h ic le a n d g r o u n d s u p p o r t s t a ti o n a n d
s t a ti o n s ig n s , o n s e l e c te d p r o m o t io n a l i te m s s u c h a s v id e o s , in t e r n e t
b r o a d c a s ts a n d fl a s h tr a i le r s e tc e te r a .

A c k n o w l e d g e Tr a n s n e t i n e a c h

p h a s e b a s e d o n . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] c o n n e c t in g t h e m t o t h is e v e n t.
Yo u h a v e g o t m o r e o f th o s e th i n g s , d i d y o u – d o y o u s e e a n y
10

t h a t e n t a i le d T N A t a k in g a n y o f t h e c o s t i m p lic a t e y o u k n o w c o n n e c t e d
w i t h t h is b r e a k f a s t , h a v e I m i s s e d s o m e t h i n g ?

I d i d n ’ t s e e m to s e e

a n y th in g w h e r e th e y w e r e a ls o g o i n g t o p a y ?
M R P H AT L A N E :

C h a ir p e r s o n b y v i r t u e o f t h e m b e i n g a s e r v i c e

p r o v i d e r a n d Tr a n s n e t b u y i n g in t o t h e p a c k a g e it m e a n s t h e y w o u ld –
d e f in i te ly w o u l d h a v e i n c o r r e c t w h a t e v e r c o s t , fo r th e v a lu e f o r w h a t i t
w o u ld n e c e s s a r i ly b e a p a r t n e r s h i p w h e r e w e a r e s a y i n g , w e a r e p u t ti n g
s o m u c h , R 1 , t h e y p u t R 1 . It is u s b u y i n g in t o t h e p r o p o s a l , t h a t w a s
m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B u t b a s i c a ll y Tr a n s n e t w a s g i v i n g T N A M e d ia l o ts o f

m il li o n s o v e r t h e s e y e a r s to e n a b l e T N A t o h a v e t h e s e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s ,
fr o m w h ic h t h e y w o u l d b e n e fi t th e m s e lv e s , b u t Tr a n s n e t p a i d e ff e c t iv e l y
f o r t h e t h in g b y p a y in g th e m il li o n s . A s f a r a s y o u k n o w y o u d o n ’ t k n o w
o f a n y b o d y e l s e w h o in c u r r e d e x p e n s e s c o n n e c t e d w i t h th is b r e a k f a s t
w h e r e Tr a n s n e t w a s in v o lv e d .
M R P H AT L A N E :

C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s c o m m o n c a u s e t h a t a n y s e r v i c e

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p r o v i d e r, w h e th e r w e h a d g o n e th e r o u te o f h a v in g a n a g e n c y w h o w il l
h a v e p a i d w h a te v e r a m o u n t t h e y w i ll d o t h e s a m e , t h e y w il l m a k e s u r e
t h a t t h e r e ’s a v a lu e a n d w h a t e v e r, i n a l l t h o s e p r o c e s s e s , th e y w il l
m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u g e t t o a p p e a r o n T V i f t h a t is p a r t o f t h e p r o je c t s o
fr o m w h e r e I w a s s i t ti n g y e s w e p a id f o r th a t p r o p o s a l C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e v a l u e t o Tr a n s n e t , I a s k e d y o u l a s t ti m e , I

c o n ti n u e t o s tr u g g l e w i th th a t , w h a t – e x c e p t f o r h a v i n g i ts l o g o s h o w n
o n m a t e r i a l a n d w h e n t h e b r e a k f a s t h a p p e n s h a v in g t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o r
C E O o r s o m e b o d y c o n n e c t e d w it h t h e C h a i r p e r s o n b e i n g s e e n t h e r e y o u
10

t a lk e d a b o u t s o m e i n te r v i e w th a t c o u l d h a p p e n b u t t h e y w e r e g e n e r a l ly
n o t s p e a k in g , Tr a n s n e t w a s n ’ t s p e a k in g , a t th e s e i f I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r
e v i d e n c e c l e a r, w e ll p r e v io u s ly, a n d t h e r e c o u l d b e a M i n i s t e r w h o m a y
b e c o n n e c t e d w i t h Tr a n s n e t a n d o th e r S o E ’s w h o c o u l d s p e a k , is m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

C h a ir p e r s o n y e s b u t I n e e d to a d d o n , j u s t t o

p r o v i d e m e w i t h a p ic t u r e a s t o w h a t i s i t t h a t w e w e r e tr y in g to a c h i e v e
w i t h t h is , w h e t h e r t h e y – t h e t r a n s a c t io n w a s i n c o r r e c t ly b u t w h a t w e
w a n t e d t o a c h ie v e .
L e t m e s ta r t m a y b e w i t h t h e k e y r is k a r e a s t h a t w e a r e f a c in g
20

a s Tr a n s n e t a s a b r a n d , p o o r r e p u t a t i o n , a l s o w e h a v e e m p l o y e e s w h i c h
a r e s t a k e h o l d e r s t h a t n e e d s t o b e e n g a g e d a n d w e h a v e a ls o a
r e s p o n s i b i li ty

to

say

Tr a n s n e t ’s

a s s e ts

are

being

damaged,

in fr a s tr u c t u r e is b e i n g d a m a g e d o u t th e r e .
N o w w e ’v e g o t a b r o a d Tr a n s n e t s t a k e h o l d e r u n iv e r s e , w h i c h i s
y o u r i n v e s t o r s , y o u r c o m m u n i ti e s , w h ic h is y o u r o r g a n is e d b u s i n e s s ,

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
w h ic h is y o u r s u p p l ie r s , y o u r c u s t o m e r s .

N o w l e t m e g iv e a v a l u e

c h a i n n o w w h y w e g o t o th e e x t e n t o f w a n t in g t o p u t o u r b r a n d o u t
there.

W e h a v e g o t a r e s p o n s ib il i ty a s c o m m u n ic a ti o n t o b u il d th e

Tr a n s n e t r e p u t a t i o n , a lb e i t t h a t i t is k n o w n t h a t t h e r e is a Tr a n s n e t . W e
h a v e g o t a r e s p o n s i b i li t y t o i m p r o v e t h e Tr a n s n e t ’s e q u i ty, th e v a l u e o f
t h e Tr a n s n e t b r a n d , i t h a s t o i n c r e a s e . W e h a v e g o t a r e s p o n s i b il it y to
m a k e s u r e th a t w e m a k e Tr a n s n e t to b e a t r u s t e d b r a n d .
N o w t h e s e – a ll th e s e th i n g s t h e y s p e a k t o o u r s t a k e h o ld e r s in
t h is w a y, o n e , w i t h c u s t o m e r s , w i th c u s to m e r s w e w a n t t o r e ta in t h e m ,
10

w e w a n t t h e m t o k n o w t h e v a lu e o f t h is o r g a n i s a t io n t h a t i s a tr u s te d
b r a n d a n d it g e ts – i t a s s o c i a t e s i ts e l f w i t h tr u s te d b r a n d s .

That

a s s o c i a t i o n i n h e lp s i n b u il d in g o r in c r e a s in g b r a n d e q u i ty b u t a ls o it
r e m a in s i n t h e m i n d s o f o u r c u s t o m e r s , o f s t a k e h o ld e r s .
T h e i n v e s to r s , Tr a n s n e t h a s a r e s p o n s i b i li t y t o c o n t i n u e g e t t in g
in v e s t o r s

who

w i ll

invest

in

t h is

brand.

Now

the

o n ly

way

in t e r n a t io n a l ly p e o p l e m i g h t k n o w Tr a n s n e t a l i t tl e b i t b u t y o u n e e d t o
b e o u t t h e r e , s o t h a t th e y k n o w t h e r e is t h is c o m p a n y c a l le d Tr a n s n e t
a n d w h a t it d o e s .

B y p u t ti n g t h e l o g o o u t th e r e y o u a r e s e ll i n g th e

b r a n d t o p e o p l e w h o m i g h t k n o w i t o r w h o m i g h t k n o w it a l it t le b i t o r
20

w h o d o n ’ t k n o w a b o u t Tr a n s n e t a t a l l , s o t h a t e x e r c is e o f h a v in g th e
lo g o b e h i n d o r b e i n g e x p o s e d i s p a r t o f b u i ld in g a b r a n d .
We

have

got

c o m m u n i ti e s

out

there

who

d e s tr o y

our

in fr a s tr u c t u r e , a n d t h e y d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t s o m e o f t h e th i n g s t h a t w e d o
w i t h i n t h o s e c o m m u n i t ie s l ik e w h e n w e b r i n g o u r E S D E n t e r p r i s e S u p p l y
D e v e l o p m e n t w i t h i n a p a r t ic u l a r c o m m u n i t y, o r w h e n w e b r i n g o u r C S I ,

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
. . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] t r a d e , w h a t e v e r d e v e l o p m e n ts t h a t w e w i ll b r i n g t o a
s c h o o l o r t o a c li n ic t h e y – s o m e o f t h e c o m m u n it i e s c a n n o t a s s o c ia t e
t h a t g o o d a c ts w i t h w h o w e a r e , s o m e t h e y t h i n k Tr a n s n e t it i s S p o o r n e t
t h a t is d o in g t h is , t h e y d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t Tr a n s n e t is S p o o r n e t b u t i t h a s
c h a n g e d t h e i m a g e , it is n o w c a l l e d Tr a n s n e t.
N o w w h e n w e d o t h is , w h e n w e e x p o s e t h e b r a n d o u t t h e r e y o u
a r e s a y i n g t o t h e c o m m u n i ti e s w e a r e p a r t o f w h a t t h a t is h a p p e n i n g in

10

t h e c o u n tr y.

W e b r in g i n fo r m a ti o n ; w e e d u c a t e y o u th r o u g h t h o u g h t

le a d e r s h i p .

S o w h e n w e g o b a c k to t h o s e c o m m u n it i e s b e c a u s e s o m e

o f t h e m t h e y a r e . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] p r o t e s t o r a n d t h e y d e s tr o y o u r a s s e ts ,
w e a r e a b l e to s h o w t h e m to s a y lo o k y o u m i g h t h a v e n o t ic e d o n e , t w o ,
t h r e e , f o u r, f iv e , y o u m i g h t h a v e s e e n P e l a . .. [ in d is ti n c t ] c o m i n g h e r e i t
is u s , i t is t h a t b r a n d th a t y o u s e e t h e r e t h a t h e l p s t o p r o te c t Tr a n s n e t
a n d to b u i ld t h e b r a n d e q u i ty o f t h is o r g a n i s a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is i t th e k i n d o f t h i n g t h a t m a y b e P R A S A a ls o d o e s

d e s p i te o r n o t d e s p i t e , d o e s a n d s t il l o n e s e e s l o t s o f tr a i n s b e i n g
b u r n t , w o u l d i t b e th e k i n d o f t h i n g t h a t e v e r y c o m p a n y w o u l d b e
w a n ti n g to d o ?
M R P H AT L A N E :
20

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n a d v e r ti s i n g a n d p r o m o ti o n t h a t is

c o m m o n , t h a t is w h y I w a s s a y in g i t is c o m m o n .

I t is c o m p a n ie s t h e y

d o t h a t , e v e n b u s i n e s s t o b u s in e s s l ik e y o u a ll u d e d e a r li e r t o s a y y o u
d o n o t s e e w h y b u s in e s s t o b u s i n e s s w il l h a v e t o e n g a g e i n t h is , t h is is
c o m m o n c a u s e f o r c o m m u n i c a t io n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t p u ts t h e b r a n d
o u t th e r e s o th a t i t i s k n o w n to p r o t e c t a n d a ls o t o b e a b l e t o g e t
in v e s t o r s s e e i n g t h a t w e a r e p a r t o f t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n e c o n o my, w e

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p r o m o te t h e d i s c o u r s e a n d t h e d is c u s s i o n s a r o u n d w h a t is h a p p e n in g i n
o u r c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Hofmeyr?

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M r P h a t la n e I w a n t to b e

c le a r a b o u t t h e q u e s ti o n I a m a b o u t to a s k e d , i t i s n o t r e la t e d t o th e
g e n e r a l u s e o f b r a n d in g f o r a n o r g a n is a t io n .

W h a t I w a n t to a s k is

w h e t h e r t h e c h o ic e o f th is p a r tic u la r v e h ic l e f o r Tr a n s n e t’s b r a n d i n g
o b j e c ti v e s w a s a v a l u a b le o n e i n y o u r v ie w ?
M R P H AT LA N E :
10

C h a ir p e r s o n I w i ll g o b a c k t o t h e t h r e e p h a s e s I

h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t . I f y o u h a d t o a s k m e i n 2 0 11 /1 2 , m a y b e 1 3 I t h in k I
w i ll h a v e p u t my n e c k a n d s a y th is m u s t h a p p e n , i t m a k e s s e n s e , t h e
w a y i t w a s b r o u g h t to m y a t t e n t i o n , b e c a u s e to s a y Tr a n s n e t b e f o r e d i d
n o t a d v e r ti s e o r g o b r o a d , b i g s c a l e , o n T V, o n b il l b o a r d s , n o w t h i s
p r o v i d e d t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty f o r u s , f o r th e b r a n d to b e k n o w n , t o b e o u t
t h e r e a n d a ls o b e c a u s e i t w a s m u lt i- p r o n g e d i t h a d a ls o t h e m e d i a s i d e
w h e r e t h e p e r s o n r e s p o n s i b l e f o r m e d ia c o u ld l e v e r a g e o n t h is
tr a n s a c ti o n .
It

also

had

the

brand

person

a ls o

le v e r a g i n g

on

th is

tr a n s a c ti o n , th e n I w o u ld h a v e s a i d to m e i t m a d e s e n s e , b u t a s i t
20

c o n ti n u e d , b e c a u s e a s i t c o n t in u e d a r o u n d 2 0 1 4 , 1 5 , 1 6 I w a s w o r r i e d
b e c a u s e o f th e n e g a t iv i t y a r o u n d – n o t a r o u n d TN A a s w e ll a s a r o u n d
Guptas.
N o w i f th e a s s o c i a t i o n , r e m e m b e r w h e n w e b u y in t o a n y
p r o d u c t i t i s t h i s a s s o c i a ti o n t h a t w e w a n t t o m a k e w i t h , w h e n y o u g o t o
N e d b a n k , w h e n y o u g o . . . [i n d i s t i n c t ] i t is t h a t a s s o c i a ti o n t h a t w e w e r e

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b u y i n g i n t o i t t o s a y t h i s is a tr u s te d b r a n d w e w a n t t o b e a s s o c ia t e d
w i t h , w e w a n t t o b e s e e n i n p a r tn e r s h ip w it h th a t t o s a y w e a r e i n l in e
w i t h t r u s t e d b r a n d s , b u t o n c e th e r e is a s h a k y m o m e n t o r t h e p a r ty s id e
t h a t ’s w h e n w e n e e d t o r e v ie w, th e n I w i ll s a y t h e r e I h a d my d o u b t s i f
w h e t h e r w e n e e d t o c o n t in u e w i th t h i s .
T h e n th e l a s t p h a s e w h ic h I w i ll ta lk a b o u t w h e n w e r e a c h a n
e l e m e n t o f c o n c l u s io n s I w i ll t a lk a b o u t t h i s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

Mr P h a tl a n e a r e y o u a w a r e t h a t

t h e r e w e r e n u m e r o u s p a r li a m e n t a r y q u e s t i o n s p o s e d to t h e M i n is te r o f
10

P u b l ic E n t e r p r i s e s to w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 2 q u e r y in g t h e e x t e n t o f t h e
s p e n d b y S t a te O w n e d E n t e r p r is e s w it h T N A ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I k n o w a b o u t t h a t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ar e y o u a w a r e th a t i n 2 0 1 3 t h e P u b l ic

P r o t e c t o r w a s i n v e s t ig a ti n g S t a t e O w n e d E n t e r p r i s e s c o n t r a c t i n g w it h
T N A , b e c a u s e s h e w a s c o n c e r n e d t h a t i t c o n s t it u t e d w a s t e f u l a n d
fr u i tl e s s e x p e n d i tu r e ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

N o , I d o n ’ t th in k I r e m e m b e r a b o u t – o r I h a v e h e a r d

a b o u t th a t , m a y b e la t e r I m i g h t h a v e b e e n e x p o s e d t o t h a t b u t d u r i n g
t h a t ti m e I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

C h a ir if w e m a y t h e n , a n d M r

P h a tl a n e g o to p a g e 9 0 o f Ex h ib i t M M 4 . C h a ir I n o t e t h a t w e a r e j u s t
b e f o r e th e q u a r t e r p a s t e l e v e n t e a b r e a k .

I don’t have a great deal

m o r e b u t n o t s u c h t h a t I w o u l d f i n is h it i n fiv e o r s o m in u t e s , I d o n ’ t
k n o w i f i t ’s c o n v e n ie n t t o t a k e t h e b r e a k n o w a n d r e t u r n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

How much time do you think you would need?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe we should take the break at half past eleven?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u ld t h i n k fi f t e e n m i n u t e s .

Indeed.

J a , o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M r P h a tl a n e w e a r e i n 2 0 1 6 i n t h e d o c u m e n ts

n o w a n d I i n d ic a te d th a t th is d o c u m e n t e v i d e n c e s a c h a n g e i n t h e
G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e a t Tr a n s n e t a n d i ts d a t e d t h e 9 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 6 .
W h o w a s t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e a t th is s t a g e ?
M R P H AT L A N E:
10

I t w a s Mr S iy a b o n g a K a m a C h a i r p e r s o n .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u , a n d t h is m e m o r a n d u m a t l e a s t a s I

lo o k a t i t , i s d i ffe r e n t to s o m e o f t h e p r e v i o u s o n e s , b e c a u s e y o u d o n ’ t
s e e m t o h a v e b e e n t h e c o m p i le r o f th is m e m o r a n d u m i f y o u g o t o p a g e
92, do you see that?
M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I s e e t h a t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n y o u a s s is t u s th e r e , w h a t – w h y h a d y o u r

r o l e c h a n g e d b y t h is t i m e ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k I w a s p a r t o f th e c o m p il in g , I

w a s n o t i n c lu d e d t o s i g n o n t h is b u t I h a v e a s e n s e t h a t I k n o w a b o u t
t h is .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u . W e ll t h e n y o u c a n p r o b a b ly a s s is t

u s w it h t h e n e x t d o c u m e n t th a t I a m i n t e r e s t e d i n , w h i c h is a t p a g e 9 3 ,
n i n e t h r e e . W h a t is th is d o c u m e n t ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

I t i s a m e m o r a n d u m C h a ir p e r s o n .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M R P H AT L A N E:

And who is it addressed to?

I t i s a d d r e s s e d t o G r o u p C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r.

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M R P H AT L A N E:

And who was that at the time?

I t w a s Mr G a r y P e t e r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M R P H AT L A N E:

And who is it from?

I t is fr o m G M C o r p o r a t e a n d P u b l ic A ff a ir s , M r

M o n d is a S k o n je la .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M R P H AT L A N E:

A n d th e d a t e o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m ?

19 April 2016.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Were you aware of this memorandum at the

ti m e i t w a s p r e p a r e d ?
10

M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s a w a r e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w h a t is t h i s m e m o r a n d u m i n fo r m in g th e

G r o u p F in a n c ia l o ff ic e r o f ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

It w a s i n f o r m in g t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e t h a t h e

n e e d s t o – le t m e s e e – o h f i n a n c i a l o ffi c e r t o n o te o r i t w a s r e q u e s t i n g
t h e G r o u p C h i e f F i n a n c i a l O ff ic e r to k n o w t h a t C o r p o r a t e P u b li c A ff a ir s
w i ll p a y t h e N e w A g e th e e n tir e c o s t o f R 2 4 m i ll io n i n a d v a n c e o f t h e
2 0 1 6 /1 7 b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s e s s i o n c o n tr a c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o w w e h a v e n ’ t s e e n a m e m o r a n d u m li k e t h i s

in a n y o f th e p r e c e d in g y e a r s , w e r e t h e r e a n y l ik e t h is ?
20

M R P H AT L A N E:

N o c h a ir p e r s o n e x c e p t t h a t I t h in k t h e r e ’s o n e

a r o u n d 2 0 – i f n o t 2 0 11 o r 2 0 1 2 , 2 0 1 3 , t h e r e w a s o n e w h e r e I w a s
a d v is e d t h a t i t m u s t a l s o g o t h e C F O s h o u l d r e c o m m e n d a ls o , I t h i n k
t h e r e ’s o n e w h e r e M r A n o j S i n g h d id s i g n if m y m e m o r y s ti ll s e r v e s m e
w e ll .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e w i ll l o o k fo r t h a t , I w a s n ’ t a w a r e o f i t a s I

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
a s k e d th e q u e s t io n n o w, b u t w e w il l g o b a c k t h r o u g h , l e t ’s f o c u s o n t h i s
o n e a t t h e m o m e n t , w h y w a s t h i s n o ti fi c a t io n b e in g g iv e n t o t h e G r o u p
C h i e f F in a n c ia l O ffi c e r ?
M R P H AT L A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n .

I d o n ’ t k n o w.

I ’ m s o r r y Ms H o f m e y r I m is s e d th a t q u e s ti o n .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w a s a s k i n g w h y th is n o ti fi c a t i o n w a s b e in g

g iv e n to t h e G r o u p C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

B a s e d o n my p r e v io u s q u e r y a s to i t n o t h a v i n g

b e e n d o n e b e fo r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M R P H AT LA N E :

A n d M r P h a t la n e y o u r a n s w e r w a s ?

My a n s w e r is I d o n ’ t k n o w b e c a u s e s p o n s o r s h i p s ,

t h e ir s p o n s o r s h i p s w e r e n o t a p p r o v e d a t t h e C F O ’s l e v e l , s o I d o n ’ t
k n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 3 o n t h a t p a g e t h a t C PA ,

t h a t ’s C o r p o r a t e a n d P u b lic A ff a ir s a n d t h e N e w A g e a g r e e d o n th e
r e n e w a l o f t h e c o n tr a c t f o r 2 0 b r e a k fa s t s o n th e s a m e t e r ms a s l a s t
y e a r, s o a t a c o s t o f R 2 4 1 6 8 0 0 0 , in c l u d i n g VAT o n c o n d it i o n t h a t
20

Tr a n s n e t p a y s t h e c o s t in a d v a n c e , a n d t h e i t g o e s o n a t p a r a g r a p h 4 t o
say:
“ T h e c o m p a n y h a d a s a v i n g s o f R 2 4 1 6 8 0 0 i n c lu s iv e o f VAT
t h a t th e c o m p a n y w o u l d h a v e i n c u r r e d fr o m th e a n n u a l
c u s t o m a r y i n f l a t i o n in c r e a s e o f u p t o 1 0 % . ”
W h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n M r P h a t la n e ?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R P H AT L A N E:

N o t h is is n o t c o m i n g fr o m m y m in d , I t h in k i t w a s

o n e o f t h o s e w h e r e y o u w r it e a n d th e n it g e t s c h a n g e d t o s a y a t t h is ,
t h is is n o t a s e n t e n c e t h a t w i ll c o m e fr o m m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M R P H AT LA N E :

D id y o u i n te r r o g a t e i t a t a l l a t th e ti m e ?

N o th e o n l y ti m e I in t e r r o g a t e d s o m e t h i n g th a t g o e s

t o th e C F O o r t o th e C h i e f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r y e s t h e r e w a s o n c e
w h e r e I a s k e d t h a t b e c a u s e th a t w a s n o t t h e n o r m a l r o u t e o f a p r o p o s a l
o f a s p o n s o r s h ip , y o u k n o w t h e r e w a s o n e I t h i n k w h e r e w e d id o n e o f
t h e a d h o c a n d w e h a d to m a k e s u r e t h a t i t g o e s t o – I h a d t o m a k e
10

s u r e t h a t i t g o e s t o t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r a n d I w a s li k e b u t
w h y, a n d I w a s t o l d n o h e h a s t o lo o k a t i t a n d j a , s o it is n o t a n o r m a l
course of doing sponsorship proposals.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u s e e i t s e e m s a s t h o u g h it ’s s u g g e s t i n g

t h a t t h e r e is a s a v i n g f o r Tr a n s n e t in t h is w h o l e d e a l o f 2 4 m il li o n , d o
you see that?
M R P H AT L A N E:

I s e e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u t h i n k t h e r e w a s a s a v in g to Tr a n s n e t i n

t h is d e a l?
M R P H AT L A N E :
20

Th e o n l y s a v in g s i t c o u l d b e , w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n

m o s t o f t h e t i m e t h e y w il l r e q u e s t, t h e y w il l k e e p o n a d d i n g t h e n u m b e r s
fr o m 1 5 n e x t y e a r i t w i ll b e 2 0 a n d t h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t w e w il l d o
. . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] i t w i ll , I w il l i n s i s t t h a t m a y b e c a n w e g o d o w n a n d t h e n
w e w il l c u t s o m e , in s te a d o f 2 0 w e w i ll s a y 1 6 if w e s e e t h e 2 0 1 2 o n e
w a s 1 6 , t h e n t h e y w il l i n c r e a s e a n d s a y m a y b e 2 4 , w e w il l s a y 2 0 , s o i n
t h a t s e n s e i t w a s I t h i n k h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o t h a t k i n d o f a s a v i n g , n o t

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
n e c e s s a r i ly a s a v i n g f r o m t h e a m o u n t th e y c h a r g e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o i t ’s – th e y c o u l d h a v e g o t m o r e b u t t h e y a r e

going to get a bit less.
M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s , w e w il l i n s is t o n th a t y e s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h i s n o t r e a l ly a s a v in g .

M R P H AT L A N E:

Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h i s n o t r e a l ly a s a v in g ?

M R P H AT L A N E:

Te c h n ic a ll y i t i s n o t C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e i f y o u ’r e

b u y i n g 2 0 t h e y w a n t e d 2 4 b u t y o u a r e b u y i n g 2 0 n o w, y o u a r e s t il l
10

p a y i n g t h e s a m e p r ic e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M r P h a t la n e y o u i n d ic a te d th a t y o u t h o u g h t

that on a previous occasion where there might have been a memo to
t h e C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r, d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t a n d y o u m e n t io n e d M r
S i n g h , A n o j Si n g h h a v in g s ig n e d o ff a m o m e n t a g o i n y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

J a , t h e r e h a s b e e n o n e i t is j u s t t h a t n o w I c a n ’t

r e m e m b e r w h ic h .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s t h e r e h a s b e e n o n e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

N o I w a n t t o b e a b l e to a s s is t y o u i f I m a y.

I f y o u g o to p a g e 7 3 I h a v e b e e n a s s is t e d b y

o u r e v e r f a it h f u l in v e s t i g a t o r s o n th is , y o u w i ll s e e th a t p a g e 7 3 is t h e
la s t p a g e o f o n e o f t h e m e m o r a n d a t h a t w e r e p r e p a r e d , i t i s t h e
s t a n d a r d m e m o r a n d a r e q u e s ti n g r e n e w a l o f t h e b r i e fi n g s e s s i o n s ,
p a r t n e r s h i p , a n d c e r t a in ly M r A n o j S i n g h a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n o n e o f
t h e r e c o m m e n d e r s o n t h a t p a g e , i s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e r e c o ll e c t in g ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t t h a t is n o t t h e ty p e o f m e m o r a n d u m t h a t

w e s e e a t p a g e 9 3 , b e c a u s e t h is is a v e r y s p e c i fi c m e m o r a n d u m , i t is
o n e g o i n g t o t h e C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r, b e c a u s e h e is b e in g a s k e d to
n o t e th a t i t is a c o n d i t io n o f t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h t h e TN A t h a t Tr a n s n e t
p a y s o v e r R 2 4 m il li o n a t th e b e g i n n i n g o f th e c o n tr a c t , d o y o u s e e t h a t ?
M R P H AT LA N E :

Ye s I s e e t h a t, b u t h o w d id t h a t h a p p e n e v e n b e fo r e

t h a t ’s w h y I w a s s a y in g e a r li e r, t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d , b u t w e d id n o t –
t h is w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e w e w r it e a le t t e r l ik e t h a t d i r e c t ly to t h e C F O b u t
paying
10

u p - fr o n t

we

had

done

even

in

other

e a r li e r

c o n tr a c ts

C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

A n d if w e j u s t g o t o t h e 2 0 1 6

c o n tr a c t t o c o m p le t e th e c h r o n o lo g y y o u w ill f in d t h a t a t p a g e 9 4 a n d a t
p a g e 1 0 6 i s th e s i g n a t u r e p a g e . C a n y o u p l e a s e t e ll u s w h o s ig n e d o n
b e h a l f o f Tr a n s n e t a s t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e , f o r t h e 2 0 1 6 c o n tr a c t ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

It w a s s ig n e d b y M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u a n d C h a ir ju s t f o r t h e r e c o r d I d o n ’ t

s u g g e s t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R P H AT L A N E :

B u t s o m e b o d y p p ’d o n h is b e h a l f , t h a t w a s B o n is o

S k o n je la .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h a t w a s th e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r o f

C o r p o r a te a n d P u b lic A ff a i r s a t t h e t i m e , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

Yo u a r e r i g h t C h a ir p e r s o n .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

C h a ir f o r t h e r e c o r d I d o n ’ t

s u g g e s t M r P h a tl a n e n e e d s t o g o t h e r e , j u s t a t p a g e 1 0 2 y o u w i ll f in d
t h e s a m e e a r l y t e r m in a ti o n p r o v is i o n h a s r e m a i n e d c o n s i s te n t , it i s t h e

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
o n e th a t r e q u ir e s m u tu a l a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e p a r ti e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Mr P h a tl a n e i f w e m a y th e n j u s t g o o v e r to

p a g e 1 0 7 , C h a ir a t p a g e 1 0 7 is a n a ffi d a v i t o f t h e A c ti n g G e n e r a l
M a n a g e r G r o u p G o v e r n a n c e R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e a n d t h e P u b l ic
O ff ic e r o f Tr a n s n e t Ms H e l e n J a n e t Wa ls h .

C h a ir a g a i n i t i s

p r o v i s i o n a lly i n tr o d u c e d b u t i t i s s i mi l a r l y d e a l in g w i t h n u m b e r s , s h e
h a s p u l le d t o g e t h e r t h e t o ta l s p e n d o n t h e s e b r e a k f a s ts o v e r t h e p e r i o d
o f 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 7 a n d M r P a t h la n e i f y o u w o u l d p le a s e g o o v e r to p a g e
10

111 , o n e h u n d r e d a n d e le v e n , y o u w il l s e e t h e c a l c u l a t i o n o f h e r to t a l
t h e r e s h e i n c l u d e s th e s p r e a d s h e e t a s w e ll a s th e s u p p o r ti n g i n v o i c e s .
H o w m u c h w a s p a i d a c c o r d in g t o M s W a l s h a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o n
t h a t p a g e , f o r th e b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t s ?
MR

P H AT L A N E:

C h a ir p e r s o n

she

a r tic u la t e s

that

we

paid

R 1 2 2 8 0 9 5 2 6 ,7 0 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d h o w m u c h w e r e p a id o n t h e b u s i n e s s

b r i e fi n g s ?
M R P H AT L A N E :

I n r e la t io n t h a t is t h e a m o u n t i n r e l a ti o n t o b u s i n e s s

b r i e fi n g s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , a n d t h e n – a p o l o g i e s , i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e

b i g in t e r v ie w, I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w a s n o t y o u r e v i d e n c e , C h a ir t h a t w a s
t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr J a c k s o n , b u t ju s t f o r t h e r e c o r d s o t h a t w e c a n g e t
t h e t o t a l t h a t w a s p a i d b e tw e e n 2 0 1 2 a n d 2 0 0 7 o n t h e b i g i n t e r v ie w ?
M R P H AT L A N E:

O n t h e b ig in t e r v i e w w e p a i d R 2 4 8 7 2 2 0 0 , 1 6 .

CHAIRPERSON:

I s i t R 2 4 8 7 2 2 0 0 ,1 6 ?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R P H AT L A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
O k a y, 2 4 8 7 2 2 0 0 ,1 6 , a n d t h e n f o r th e b u s i n e s s

b r i e fi n g s ?
M R P H AT L A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

R122 809 526,70.
J a , o k a y, a n d b o t h a m o u n t s i n c lu d in g VAT a c c o r d in g

t o t h e a ff id a v i t.
M R P H AT L A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

B o th a m o u n t s . . . [i n d i s t i n c t ]
I n c l u d i n g , t h e y i n c l u d e VAT a c c o r d i n g t o t h e

a ffi d a v i t .
10

M R P H AT L A N E:

I t h i n k t h e y i n c lu d e t h e VAT h e r e C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , t h a t ’s w h a t i t s a y s j a .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

O k a y.

M r P h a tl a n e I h a v e tw o f in a l

a s p e c ts t o t r a v e r s e w i t h y o u , a n d f o r t h a t p u r p o s e I w o u l d lik e to g o
b a c k i n to y o u r s ta t e m e n t i f w e m a y, a t p a g e 6 a t E x h i b i t M M 4 , Mr
P h a tl a n e a t p a g e 6 o f E x h i b i t M M 4 y o u h a v e a h e a d in g t h e r e e n t i tl e d
t h e p r e s s u r e o f e x e c u ti n g th e b r e a k fa s t.

Can you tell us about that

pressure.

20

M R P H AT L A N E:

Yo , t h a t i s a d i ff ic u l t o n e C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

(laughing) ja.

M R P H AT L A N E:

L o o k w h e n th e b r e a k f a s t s t a r te d I t h i n k w h e r e w e

w e r e d e p l o y e d , if I m a y u s e t h e w o r d d e p lo y f o r la c k o f a b e t t e r w o r d ,
b u t w e w e r e s e n t t o m a n a g e th is b e i n g a r o u n d f o u r o f u s , t h a t ’s h o w
i m p o r t a n t w e t o o k i t t o b e a r o u n d 2 0 11 , I t h i n k t h a t ’s w h e r e m y
e m o ti o n s a ls o w a s a t a l e v e l o f . .. [ in d is ti n c t ] s ta g e w h e r e I w il l r e a ll y
g o a n d w a n t t o d o . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
CHAIRPERSON:
M R P H AT L A N E :

Yo u w e r e v e r y s u p p o r t iv e o f th e s e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
Ve r y s u p p o r tiv e o f th is a n d a l s o i f i t te lls y o u e v e n

t h e o ffic e i ts e lf t h e r e C o r p o r a te a n d P u b l ic A ff a ir s t h e y w il l s e n d f o u r o f
u s y o u k n o w t o g o a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t t h is tr a n s a c ti o n g e t s a t te n ti o n
a n d I t h in k I w a s v e r y s u p p o r t iv e .
CHAIRPERSON:
M R P H AT L A N E :

T h a t w o u ld b e o n t h e d a y o f t h e b r e a k f a s t ?
O n t h e d a y o f t h e b r e a k f a s t , a t f o u r o ’c l o c k i n t h e

m o r n in g w e w i ll a l l b e t h e r e o r a r o u n d f iv e w e a r e t h e r e b e c a u s e w h a t
w i ll h a p p e n w e n e e d to m a k e s u r e t h a t w h e n t h e l e a d e r s h i p c o m e s w e
10

a r e a b le t o d ir e c t t h e m t o w h e r e t h e y n e e d t o b e b u t a l s o b e c a u s e w e
h a v e in v i t e d s o m e o f o u r s t a k e h o l d e r s , w e h a v e g o t t w o t a b l e s t h e r e , s o
w e n e e d t o b e a b l e t o d i r e c t th e m t o w h e r e t h e y n e e d t o s i t a n d a l s o to
m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e b r a n d i n g a r o u n d th e r e w e a r e a b l e to p o s i ti o n i t
s tr a t e g ic a l ly b e c a u s e w e n e e d to lo o k a t t h e c a m e r a s w h e r e t h e y a r e
fr o m , b e c a u s e w e w a n t o u r b r a n d t o b e o u t th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I g u e s s y o u h a d t o w h e n y o u w e r e p a y in g s o m u c h

y o u h a v e g o t to g e t t h e r i g h t s p o t .
M R P H AT LA N E :

D e f i n i t e ly C h a i r p e r s o n , y e s . N o w w e ’v e b e e n – n o w

a s i t c o n t in u e d n o w in ti m e I a m a l o n e , o t h e r p e o p l e a r e n o l o n g e r
20

a l lo w e d t o b e p a r t o f t h is , I a m . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

On the day?

M R P H AT L A N E :

O n t h e d a y, y o u h a v e g o t t o r u n a r o u n d , y o u w a k e u p

in t h e m o r n in g , r e m e m b e r t h e h o l d i n g r o o m w o u l d b e f a r fr o m w h e r e t h e
e v e n t is h a p p e n i n g , s o y o u a r e j u s t r u n n i n g a r o u n d , p e o p l e s e e a j a c k e t
m o v i n g t h is w a y, t h a t w a y, b e c a u s e n o w y o u h a v e g o t t o g o a n d c h e c k

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t h e l e a d e r s h ip i f t h e y h a v e a r r iv e d , b e c a u s e I n e e d t o u s h e r t h e m i n ,
a n d th e n a l l i n t h e s a m e b r e a t h I n e e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t a l l t h o s e
s t a k e h o ld e r s t h a t w e i n v i te d a r e s e a t e d a t t h e p r o p e r ta b l e s a n d
in t e r a c t w i th t h e m b e c a u s e n o w is th is – y o u k n o w t h i s r u n n i n g i t’s a s if
y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t y o u a r e d o i n g s o t h a t i n i ts e l f i t d i d n o t s h o w t h a t
t h e s u p p o r t b e c a u s e y o u r a is e th i n g b e c a u s e i t i s h e a v y o n o n e p e r s o n
b u t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

But the other people, there were four of you, you

s a i d , w e r e t h e y fr o m y o u r d e p a r t m e n t?
10

M R P H AT L A N E:

Fr o m o u r d e p a r t m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Were you the most senior of the four?

M R P H AT L A N E:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s a t fl o o r l e v e l .

CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

M R P H AT L A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

W a s M r Sk o n j e l a o n e o f t h e f o u r ?

M R P H AT L A N E:

N o C h a ir i t w i ll b e g i v e if h e is a r o u n d C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y, a lr ig h t , c o n ti n u e .

M R P H AT L A N E:

A n d i t w e n t o n l ik e t h a t n o w w h e r e y o u a r e o n y o u r

o w n w h e r e y o u f e l t n o w I d o n ’ t t h i n k r e a l ly i f w e b e li e v e in t h i s
20

p a r t n e r s h i p i f w e b e l ie v e in w h a t w e a r e p a y i n g fo r r e a l ly i t m e a n s o n e
p e r s o n , b e c a u s e I k n o w c o m m u n ic a ti o n d e a ls w i t h e v e n t s , I k n o w w h e n
a n e v e n t w e w o u l d ta k e it s e r i o u s ly, w e p u t m o r e p e o p l e to b e t h e r e
b e c a u s e w e k n o w h o w i m p o r ta n t – a t r e g i s tr a ti o n w e a r e t h e r e s o t h a t
w e a r e a b le to w e lc o m e t h e s e p e o p l e , a n d a ls o m a k e s u r e t h a t
s o m e b o d y is a b l e t o g o a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t h e u s h e r s le a d e r s h i p , a n d

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e x p l a i n a s to w h o h a s a r r iv e d a n d w h a t b e c a u s e w e n e e d a ls o to b e
a b l e t o d ir e c t th e m a s t o w h o is t h e r e , w h a t th e l e a d e r s h ip n e e d s t o .
N o w y o u w o u l d i m a g in e i f y o u ’r e m o v i n g fr o m t h i s a n g le t o t h e
o th e r, r i g h t i n to th e v e n u e t o s e t u p i t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r il y s h o w t h a t i n
my own view it does not show appreciation to say the value that we are
p a y i n g , w e a ls o v a l u e t h i s e v e n t o r t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t w e – I fe l t t h a t
t h e r e w a s a l i tt l e b i t o f a b u s e , I f e l t t h e r e w a s a l it t le b i t o f d i s r e s p e c t
b e c a u s e y o u r a is e t h is t h e r e w il l b e n o p o s i tiv e r e s p o n s e t o s a y it w a s
a s i f y o u c a n d o i t, d o it , w e h a v e d o n e i t b e f o r e , y o u h a v e d o n e i t
10

p r e v i o u s ly w h y n o t.
S o i t i s i n t h a t i n s ta n c e w h e r e j a y o u f e e l t h a t o k a y th is w e a r e
ju s t g o in g i n t o e m o t io n s , y o u k n o w e s p e c ia ll y y o u k n o w a r o u n d y o u
2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 5 , 2 0 1 6 w h e r e i t w a s 2 0 m i ll io n , 2 0 m i ll i o n y o u f e l t w e a r e j u s t
g o i n g t h r o u g h t h i s j u s t to m a k e s u r e i t ’s d o n e a n d d u s te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is y o u r c o m p l a i n t t h a t y o u w e r e n o t g e t ti n g s u p p o r t
fr o m w it h Tr a n s n e t o r is y o u r c o m p la i n t t h a t T N A w a s n o t g iv in g t h e
s u p p o r t th a t i t s h o u l d h a v e g iv e n Tr a n s n e t a s th e s p o n s o r o r t h e
p a r t n e r.
M R P H AT L A N E :

20

C h a ir p e r s o n T N A p l a y e d t h e ir r o l e , t h e ir r o le i s t o

m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e e v e n t is t h e r e , th e y h a v e p e o p l e a t r e g i s tr a t io n ,
t h e r e is a p l a c e t h a t t h e y s e t u p t h e ir o w n b r a n d i n g , th e y m a k e s u r e
t h a t e v e r y t h in g is t h e r e .

T h e r e is h o l d i n g r o o m .

B u t t h e r e i s a ls o a

r e s p o n s i b i li ty fr o m Tr a n s n e t th a t w h e n y o u , y o u n e e d t o s e n t o u t
a d e q u a t e n u m b e r o f p e o p le t h a t w i ll m e n d t h e e v e n t , b e c a u s e th is
e v e n t w e a r e p a y i n g a l o t , i t is n o t ju s t o n e o f t h e e v e n t w h e t h e r w e

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have, we honour it we do not.
S o fr o m th e s id e o f Tr a n s n e t I f e lt s o m e w h e r e w e lo s t t h e p lo t
in t e r m s o f s u p p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r P h a t la n e if y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 7 ,
y o u in d i c a t e d e a r l ie r y o u w a n t t o t a l k a b o u t t h e l a s t p h a s e o f th e
b r e a k f a s t a n d t h a t i s p i c k e d u p a t p a r a g r a p h 11 o n p a g e 7 o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t in E X H I B I T M M ( 4 ) . Yo u m e n ti o n e d t h e r e t h a t y o u e m b a r k e d
o n a c h a n g e fo r t h e s e b r e a k fa s ts a r o u n d 2 0 1 6 . 2 0 1 7 .
10

What was that

change?
M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n y o u s h a l l k n o w t h a t I a m s a y i n g a t s o m e
s t a g e I w e n t o n a r o l le r c o a s t e r o f e m o t io n s , f r o m t i m e t o w h e r e y o u a r e
d e s p o n d e n t a n d l ik e r e a lly, r e a l ly d o I h a v e to t h i s , a n d a ls o w i th t h e
s u p p o r t , th e l a c k o f s u p p o r t t h e r e f o r y o u w o u l d f e l l li k e , th is I w is h t h e y
w o u ld t h e y c a n c e l. N o t o n l y th is is m y w o r d , i t w a s m y f e e l in g . I t w a s
a f e e l in g o f o t h e r c o ll e a g u e s b e c a u s e w e w o u l d t a l k a b o u t t h i s , t h i s
p r o p o s a l . T h e y w o u l d c o m e , th e y w i ll b e a i n m e e t in g o n a Tu e s d a y, o n
o u r o w n w i t h o u r M a n a g e r s , w e w il l t a l k a b o u t t h i s .

We say as a

p r o p o s a l a g a i n w e a r e g i v i n g t h e m 2 0 m i ll io n a g a in . T h e y w o u l d h a v e
20

r e q u e s t e d 2 0 m i ll i o n a n d y o u w i ll s e e t h a t e v e r y o n e w o u ld s a y, w h y a r e
w e o n t h e C o u n c i l b u t w e d o n o t b e a b l e t o c a n c e l i t, o r e v e n t o
persuade somebody to cancel it.

S o , i n 2 0 1 6 , 2 0 1 7 w e s t il l h a d a

c o n tr a c t f o r 2 0 m i ll io n .
U n f o r t u n a t e ly, n o w th e r e w a s a c h a n g e o f le a d e r s h i p n o w, th e y
b r o u g h t i n M r d e G e r t e to b e t h e G M f o r c o m m u n ic a ti o n s o r c o r p o r a t e

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a n d p u b lic a ff a ir s . H e s t a r te d w h e r e b y b y c a n c e l li n g t h e b ig in t e r v i e w,
a n d n o w b e c a u s e th is c o n tr a c t w a s s ti ll s u b s i s ti n g i t w a s c o n t i n u i n g .
T h e y w e r e l e ft , t h e y w e r e a b o u t s ix , a b o u t s i x o r s o s e s s i o n s t h a t w e
w e r e s u p p o s e d t o d o , a n d w e s a t d o w n b e c a u s e h e s a id , h e a s k e d m e i f
w e c o u l d d o i t, t h is d i ff e r e n t ly a n d I t h e n s a i d n o , w e c o u ld d o i t
d i ff e r e n t ly b e c a u s e w e c a n s ti ll u s e th a t m a x i m u m p la t f o r m I h a v e
s p o k e n o f S A B C s lo t . I s a id le t u s z o o m i n to t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . L e t u s
n o w f o c u s d ir e c t ly o n w h a t w e a r e d o in g , s o th e l a s t s ix o r s o b r e a k f a s t
I s ta r t e d n o w c r a f t in g , w h a t c o u ld t o TN A to s a y, w e w a n t , h e r e is t h e
10

s c r i p t w e w a n t y o u t o g o i n th is w a y.
I z o o m e d i n t o Te a r f u n d w h i c h i s o u r r a il w a y b u s in e s s fr e i g h t,
w e in t e r v i e w e d c o l le a g u e s , w e s h o w e d w h a t d o o n s c r e e n , y o u k n o w
p ic t u r e s f ir s t . Th is is w h a t w e d o o n d a y t o d a y a n d t h e n w e b r o u g h t o n
p a n e l , w e b r o u g h t p e o p le f r o m Tr a n s n e t a ls o fr o m p e o p l e a ls o p e o p l e
fr o m t h e In d u s tr y.
Tr a n s n e t .

T h e r a i l i n d u s tr y o u ts id e s o t h a t i t is n o t o n ly

W e s t il l h a v e t h a t b a la n c e d v i e w, b e c a u s e w e w e r e d r iv in g

s h o r tl y th a t s h ip s o d o n o t w a n t p e o p l e to s a y o n ly, y o u r p r o fi l e
in t e r e s ts u s . W e w a n t e d i t to r e m a in .
To h a v e th e c h a r a c te r o f i t b e i n g a b r e a k f a s t , b u t Tr a n s n e t w i ll
20

s p e a k o n t h e ir s id e , a n d o th e r s w il l s p e a k a b o u t t h e I n d u s t r y i n
g e n e r a l . W e t h e n z o o m e d a ls o i n t o t h e o c e a n s i t e . W e a r e i n m a r i n e
b u s i n e s s , s o w e te r m t h a t t h e o c e a n e c o n o m y, b e c a u s e i t i s n o t o n ly
Tr a n s n e t c o n t r i b u t in g i n th a t . W e b r o u g h t t h o s e o t h e r In d u s tr y p l a y e r s
t o c o m e a n d s p e a k o n th a t p la t f o r m . N o w w h o w e r e c h a n g in g i t ? W e
w e r e c h a n g in g i t to s u i t u s , s o t h a t f o r t h e l a s t s ix o r s e v e n b r e a k f a s ts

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t h a t w e r e le f t , w e w e r e in - h o u s e .
W e w e r e d ir e c tly p r o p o u n d i n g Tr a n s n e t b u s in e s s a s i t n o r m a lly
d o , s o w e w o u l d s t a r t f r o m w h a t m a r in e b u s i n e s s m e a n s .

T h e y w il l

s h o w t h a t th e p o r ts a n d a l l th a t , th e n w e g e t i n to t h e d is c u s s i o n a r o u n d
t h e o c e a n e c o n o m y.

W e d id o n e r o u n d p i p e li n e s .

P e tr o l e u m .

We

in v i te d a s t a k e h o l d e r fr o m P e tr o l e u m t o c o m e a n d s p e a k a b o u t t h a t
in d u s tr y, b u t t h is ti m e w e w e r e a b l e t o z o o m i n d ir e c tly i n t o w h a t w e d o
a s Tr a n s n e t .
W h a t a r e o u r c a p a b il it i e s , s o th a t w h o e v e r t h a t is w a tc h i n g h a s
10

a s e n s e o f w h a t Tr a n s n e t d o e s a n d a l s o t h e in v e s t o r s w h o m i g h t w a n t
t o in v e s t in u s ? W e w i ll h a v e a s e n s e o f w h a t w e d o , a n d h o w b ig w e
are.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r P h a t la n e w h y w a s th a t n o t d o n e i n t h e
p r e v i o u s fi v e y e a r s ?
M R P H AT L A N E : W e ll th e r e w a s n e v e r a n o p p o r t u n i ty g iv e n t o s a y, l e t
u s r e s tr u c t u r e o r i t , o r w a s m o r e o f a p r o p o s a l t o s a y fr o m T N A th e y w ill
g iv e u s s p e a k e r s t o c h o o s e fr o m .

S o t h a t, i t li m i t e d o n e i n te r ms o f

c o m i n g u p w i t h a p r o p o s a l to s a y w e c a n z o o m in t o b u s i n e s s a n d s t il l
h a v e i n t h e d is c u s s i o n a r o u n d , w h a t e v e r t o p ic , b u t t h a t d i d n o t c o m e ,
20

d i e d n o t c o m e t o m e y o u k n o w s o t h a t I c a n a d d v a l u e o n t h a t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h o s e a r e o u r q u e s t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u l o o k a t t h e a m o u n ts w e h a v e j u s t h a d
r e g a r d t o e a r li e r o n t h a t a ff i d a v i t th a t w e r e p a i d b y Tr a n s n e t f o r th e
b r e a k f a s t o f t h e y e a r s a n d f o r th e b i g i n te r v i e w. S it t in g th e r e n o w, a n d
y o u l o o k b a c k , a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y Tr a n s n e t w a s fu ll y j u s t i fi e d t o s p e n d

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t h a t k in d o f m o n e y o n t h i s b r e a k f a s t a n d t h e b ig in t e r v i e w s ?
M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n , li k e I h a v e s a i d , I w e n t a r o ll e r c o a s t e r o f
e m o ti o n s .

I w il l s a y t o a c e r ta i n e x t e n t, y e s I w il l j u s t if y c e r t a i n

b r e a k f a s t s , b u t t h e r e a r e s o m e th a t w i ll , m y m i n d a n d m y h e a r t d o e s n o t
a l lo w m e t o s a y, y e s t h e r e is s o m e , th e y w e r e o f v a l u e e s p e c ia ll y w h e n
t h e r e w a s a n e g a ti v i ty a r o u n d o u r c li e n t o r a r o u n d o u r p a r t n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n t h o s e th a t y o u fe e l w e r e
ju s t i fi e d a n d t h o s e th a t y o u f e e l w e r e n o t j u s ti f ie d . B a s ic a l ly, th e ti m e ,
n a m e ly t h o s e t h a t h a p p e n e d e a r ly i n t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p .
10

M a y b e 2 0 11 ,

m a y b e 2 0 1 2 , 2 0 1 3 y o u fe e l w e r e j u s ti f ie d , i t i s t h o s e th a t c a m e th a t ,
2 0 1 4 u p t o 2 0 1 4 t h a t y o u f e e l w e r e u n j u s t if ie d , o r m a y b e 2 0 1 5 t o 2 0 1 7
or even in 2016, 2015, 2017 there were some that you say were
ju s t i fi e d a n d t h e r e w e r e s o m e t h a t y o u s a y w e r e n o t ju s t i fi e d .
M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w a s t h a t a n e x e r c is e y o u h a v e n o t d o n e ?
M R P H AT L A N E : S o r r y C h a ir, t h i n k in g o n t o p o f m y h e a d C h a i r p e r s o n
w i t h o u t u s i n g a n y s c i e n t if ic o n e . A r o u n d o r t h e o n e s th a t I h a d s t a r te d
h a v i n g a w o r r y d ir e c tly, l e t m e s a y w h e n I s ta r t e d t h i n k i n g d e e p l y in t o
t h e r e . I t w a s a r o u n d 1 4 , t h e 2 0 m il li o n s , 2 0 m ill i o n s t h a t w a s y o u k n o w,

20

it w a s k in d o f, 2 0 m il li o n t u r n , a s i f y o u s e e , i t is li k e , w e a r e j u s t
d is h in g i t o u t .

2014. 2015.

2 0 1 6 p a r t ly w e w e r e a b l e to s a l v a g e

s o m e t h i n g i n th e la s t s i x o r s e v e n o f 2 0 1 6 , 2 0 1 7 b e c a u s e w e a r e n o w
a b l e to z o o m i n t o Tr a n s n e t o p e r a t io n s , a n d t h e n c r e a t e t h o u g h t
le a d e r s h i p a r o u n d t h a t .
T h e e a r l i e r o n e , I t h in k I w a s in a n o t h e r s t a g e i n m a y b e w h e n

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w e r e tr u m p f e l l , m a y b e n o t a s o b j e c t iv e a s s u p p o s e a s s u p p o s e b u t I
t h i n k , I t h o u g h t th e r e w a s a b i t o f v a l u e .

I t is ju s t t h a t I c a n n o t s a y

w h a t p e r c e n t a g e , b u t I t h in k t h e r e w a s v a l u e fr o m w h e r e I a m s it t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll e a r l i e r o n y o u ta lk e d n e g a ti v i ty t h a t s u r r o u n d e d
t h e G u p t a ’s fr o m a c e r t a i n t i m e . W h e n y o u t a lk a b o u t th e o n e s t h a t I
t h i n k y o u s a y y o u f e e l w e r e ju s t i fi e d , w a s n ’ t t h a t t i m e , a ti m e w h e n
t h e r e w a s a lo t n e g a tiv e p u b l ic i ty fo r t h e G u p t a s ? 2 0 1 5 , 2 0 1 6 , 2 0 1 7 .
M R P H AT L A N E : T h a t w a s t h e t i m e C h a ir p e r s o n . 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R P H AT L A N E : I t h i n k i t w a s t h e t i m e o f t h e is s u e o f t h e a e r o p l a n e
la n d i n g s o m e w h e r e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON: What type of landing was 2013?
M R P H AT L A N E : 2 0 1 3 b u t g o i n g f o r w a r d t h e r e w a s a l o t n e g a t iv i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R P H AT L A N E : F ir s t it w a s j u s t th e i n c i d e n t a n d t h e n t h e y a r e w h a tw h a t . B u t 2 0 1 4 t h a t s t a r t e d g e t t in g m o m e n t, I m e a n t h e r e w e r e is s u e s
t h a t th e y w e r e a n s w e r in g t o , i t is w h e r e I h a d a p r o b le m y o u k n o w fr o m
Tr a n s n e t t o s a y, m a y b e w e n e e d to s c a le d o w n i f w e a r e g iv in g th e m
b e n e fi t o f d o u b t , b u t n o t i n c r e a s i n g fr o m th e s ix t e e n t h a t w e h a v e d o n e ,

20

b u t in s t e a d w e w e n t u p . Tw e n t y.
W e c o n t i n u e t h e s a m e 2 0 1 5 a g a i n . S o , t o m e it is li k e e i t h e r
w e w e r e n o t r e a l ly a p p ly i n g o u r s e lv e s i n t e r m s o f t o s a y w e a r e g e t ti n g
t h is n e g a ti v i ty. I t a ff e c ts t h a t th e b r a n d o f th e o t h e r a s s o c ia t e . B u t w e
s t il l g iv e t h e m t h e b e n e fi t o f d o u b t a n d g iv e t h e m m o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a t is my d i ffi c u l t y w i t h w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g

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c o m p a r in g i t t o w h a t y o u s a i d e a r l ie r o n .

That in branding you don’t

w a n t t o a s s o c i a te y o u r s e l f w i t h a b r a n d t h a t , w h o s e r e p u t a t i o n is
damaged.
N o w 2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 5 , 2 0 1 6 I t h i n k y o u s a y s o y o u r s e l f t h a t th e , th e
b a c k b r a n d , a n y t h i n g t o d o w i t h th e G u p t a ’s .

T h e r e w a s a lo t o f

n e g a tiv i ty a r o u n d it . B u t y o u s a y t h e b r e a k f a s t w h ic h t o o k p l a c e d u r i n g
t h o s e y e a r s a r e t h e o n e s y o u f e e l y o u c a n j u s ti f y.

S o , y o u , u n le s s I

m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u .
M R P H AT L A N E : N o C h a ir.
10

I s a i d e a r l ie r, 2 0 11 o r 2 0 1 2 o r 2 0 1 3

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e a r e t h e o n e s t h a t y o u c a n ju s t i fy ?
M R P H AT LA N E : T h o s e a r e t h e o n e s I a m s a y in g I w a s a t tr u m p f e l l
stage.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P H AT L A N E : B u t 2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 5 . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P H AT L A N E : P a r tly o f 2 0 1 6 . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t ju s ti fy.
M R P H AT L A N E : J a , y e s t h o s e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n I . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .
M R P H AT L A N E : A n d t h e l a s t I c a n ju s ti fy b e c a u s e w e a r e n o w p r o f il in g
Tr a n s n e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. Al r i g h t . Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h P h a tl a n e f o r
c o m i n g t h r o u g h to g iv e e v i d e n c e .

I f w e n e e d y o u , w e w i ll a s k y o u t o

c o m e b a c k a n d a s s i s t a g a i n . B u t f o r n o w, t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d y o u

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are excused.
M R P H AT L A N E : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w i ll t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w. W o u ld y o u l ik e
m e t o g iv e y o u a n d a d d i t i o n a l f iv e m i n u te s t o t h e n o r m a l t i m e s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h a t w o u l d i d e a l. W e h a v e g o t q u it e a b i t
of arrange for the session.
CHAIRPERSON: So,

should

we

resume

at

t w e lv e

o ’c lo c k

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t s h o u l d b e s u ffi c i e n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t w e w i ll a d j o u r n a t t w e l v e . W e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r t o d a y w e c o m m e n c e th e s e c o n d s e s s i o n
o f a v i a ti o n e v i d e n c e b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s i o n , a n d a s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d
e a r l ie r t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s w h o I p r o p o s e p la c e
t h e m s e l v e s o n r e c o r d . A n d t h e n I w o u l d d e a l w i th t h e o p e n in g .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s h a v e d i ff e r e n t C o u n s e l p l a c i n g t h e m s e lv e s o n
record.
MR MARUMU MURANE:

C h a ir I a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f o n e o f t h e

i m p l ic a t e d p a r t ie s t o g e t h e r w i th m y c o l l e a g u e Ts l e t l o i n s tr u c t e d b y

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
Ramsey Webber attorneys.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , f o r th e r e c o r d y o u m i g h t ju s t h a v e to p la c e y o u r
name of the record.

Yo u a r e k n o w n t o b e m e b u t t h e r e a d e r o f t h e

tr a n s c r ip t w o n ’ t k n o w.
MR MARUMU MURANE:

C h a ir m y n a m e i s M a r u m u M u r a n e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . Is t h e r e a n o t h e r. T h a n k y o u .
ADV Y ALI:

Good morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV Y ALI:
10

M y n a m e is Y A l i . I a m C o u n s e l f o r J M Av ia t io n a n d M r

Viy o I n s e k o . T h e o b s e r v e r. T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
M R M A N D LA N J A N K A S E : C h a ir I a m M a n d la N j a n k a s e , r e p r e s e n t in g
M s S a m b o . M s S i b o n g i le S a m b o o n in s tr u c t io n o f G T M o h l o n g
Incorporated.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
M R L E A G O M ATA B AT E : G o o d d a y C h a ir. M y n a m e is L e a g o M a ta b a te
a n d I a m h e r e o n i n s t r u c t i o n M r M a g u d i S e jo n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . A n d I s o m e h o w fo r g o t te n w h a t M r M u r a n e
n e x t c l i e n t is . T h e p e r s o n h e is r e p r e s e n t i n g is . D o y o u w a n t t o r e m i n d

20

me?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d . A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t i s M s M u d l u w l a
o n e o f t h e i m p lic a t e d p e o p l e r e l a te d t o M s S a m b o ’s e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: So, he knows that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

W e c o m m e n c e d th e s e c o n d

s e s s i o n o f t h e a v i a t i o n e v id e n c e t o d a y. A n d o v e r th e c a u s e o f t h e n e x t
t h r e e w e e k s f iv e a r e a s o f in v e s ti g a t io n w i ll b e p r e s e n te d t o t h e
Commission.

C h a ir i t is m y p r o p o s a l a t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e

w i t n e s s e s fo r e a c h a r e a o f in v e s ti g a t io n , t o g iv e a s h o r t o v e r v i e w.
O n t h e p r e v i o u s o c c a s io n I h a d g iv e n a l l fo u r a r e a s f o r t h e
t h r e e w e e k s a n d b y a b o u t w e e k t w o I t h i n k e v e r y o n e h a d fo r g o t te n
where we were.

S o , i t is m y p r o p o s a l t o d o i t s i m p ly a s a n d w h e n a

n e w a r e a o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n b e g i n s w i th t h e e v id e n c e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t o d a y w e a r e c o m m e n c i n g w it h t h e f ir s t
in v e s t i g a t io n a r e a . A n d t h a t i n v o l v e s a p e r i o d o f ti m e w h e n M r K o n a ,
o u r w i tn e s s w h o is a b o u t to g i v e e v i d e n c e w a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a n d
t h e n th e C E O o f S . A . A .
A n d h e e v i d e n c e r e l a t e s fir s t t o a m e e t in g t h a t h e h a d a t t h e
G u p t a r e s id e n c e s h o r t ly a ft e r h e t o o k u p th e p o s s e s s io n o f C h a ir a t
S . A . A , a n d th e n t h e s e c o n d a s p e c t is T N A S u b s c r i p t i o n A g r e e m e n t
w h ic h w a s e n te r e d i n to w h i le h e w a s in t h e p o s s e s s i o n o f C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e o f S . A . A . C h a i r w i th t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f M r K o n a ’s e v i d e n c e ,

20

c e r t a i n l y t h e TN A e v id e n c e i n r e la t io n to S . A . A . w il l b e c o m p l e te d a n d
t h e T N A e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n to a l l th e o t h e r S O E ’s w o u l d a ls o h a v e
b e e n c o m p l e t e d b u t f o r th e e v i d e n c e o f M r M k w a n a s i w h o w o u l d b e
r e tu r n in g a t a d a t e to b e s c h e d u l e d t o g iv e th a t fi n a l p i e c e o f e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r ju s t o n p r o c e d u r a l m a t t e r s i n r e l a ti o n t o

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M r K o n a ’s e v i d e n c e . T h e 3 3 N o ti c e s to i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s a r is i n g fr o m
M r K o n a ’s e v i d e n c e w e r e s e n t o u t ti m e o u s ly, a n d w e d id f o l lo w u p w i t h
M r K o n a a b o u t c e r t a in c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t h e r e f e r s t o in h is a ffi d a v i t
a n d h e w a s a b le t o p r o v i d e t h a t t o u s y e s t e r d a y.
I t h a s b e e n i n c l u d e d i n h is b u n d l e a n d I w ill a s k h i m q u e s ti o n s
a b o u t th a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .

A n y fu r t h e r i m p l ic a t i o n s a r is i n g fr o m t h e

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h o u g h , w e h a v e n o t h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty, i f i t a r i s e s t o
a l e r t p e r s o n s t o b u t t h e p e r s o n w i t h w h o m t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e is , is a
p e r s o n M r M a h la n g u w h o h a s p r e v io u s ly r e c e i v e d a R u l e 3 3 n o tic e i n
10

r e l a ti o n t o M r K o n a ’s e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o , w it h y o u r l e a v e I p r o p o s e t o d e a l w i th
a l l o f i t t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s m a t t e r s c u r r e n tl y s t a n d w e h a v e
r e c e i v e d n o r e s p o n s e s f r o m i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s to t h o s e n o tic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y t h e n r e q u e s t t h a t t h e w i tn e s s b e s w o r n
in .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , p le a s e a d m in is t e r o f a ff ir m a t io n .

Th a n k y o u .

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
V U Y I S I L E K O N A : ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a te s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A s a m a t t e r o f r e c o r d k e e p i n g
M r K o n a ’s a ff id a v i t w e p r o p o s e b e e n te r e d i n t o th e r e c o r d a s E X H I B I T
DD(17).

I t c o m p r i s e s a n a ff id a v i t a n d t h e n a s I m e n ti o n e d p r e v io u s ly

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s o m e o f t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n s w e r e c e iv e d y e s t e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r Vu y is i le K o n a ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d th e a n n e x u r e s t h e r e t o
w i ll b e m a r k e d D D ( 1 7 ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u c h a ir.

Mr Kona you should have a

c o p y i n fr o n t o f y o u .
M R K O N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e a ffi d a v i t .

I w il l m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o i t .

T h e p a g e n u m b e r s t h a t I w i ll b e r e fe r r i n g t o a r e t h e o n e s i n r e d i n t o p
r ig h t- h a n d c o r n e r.
10

M R K O N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o , y o u w o u l d a b le t o o r ie n t a te y o u r s e l f
throughout the evidence.

M r K o n a , w e u n d e r s t a n d th a t y o u r e c e n tl y

h a v e h a d a n o p e r a t i o n a n d w e a r e g r a t e f u l t o y o u n o n e t h e le s s t o b e
p r e s e n t t o d a y.

T h a n k y o u fo r t h a t.

Please do let us know if in the

c a u s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e i f t h e r e is a n y i s s u e w i th d is c o m f o r t a n d w e c a n
s e e w h a t a r r a n g e m e n ts c a n b e m a d e .
M R K O N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a l s o j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d , i f y o u w o u l d m a k e
s u r e t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e m i c r o p h o n e is a s c l o s e t o y o u a s p o s s ib l e
20

a n d t o s p e a k a s l o u d ly a s p o s s i b l e in t o i t .

I t ju s t h e l p s w i th t h e

tr a n s c r ib i n g .
M R K O N A : W e w i ll d o s o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h .
MR KONA: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r K o n a y o u p r o v i d e d th is a ffi d a v it t o t h e

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C o m m i s s i o n in r e s p o n s e t o r e c e iv i n g R u l e 3 3 n o t ic e s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d in r e l a t i o n t o w h o s e e v i d e n c e d i d y o u
p r o v i d e t h e a ff i d a v i t ?
M R K O N A : I n r e la t i o n t o S i s a M s i m e l o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .

A n d th e r e w a s a l s o t h e f u r th e r

a ffi d a v i t i s Ms C o e t z e e . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i n te r ms o f th e p r o c e s s e s o n R u l e 3 3 ’s
10

a n d i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n ’s r e s p o n s e s Mr K o n a ’s r e s p o n s e t o M s M is m e lo
a n d M s C o e tz e e ’s e v id e n c e h a s b e e n a g iv e n t o t h e m a s i s o r d i n a r il y
t h e c a s e , a n d t h e y a r e s t il l in t h e p r o c e s s o f p r o v id i n g r e s p o n s e s t o t h e
C o m m i s s i o n . S u b j e c t t o M r K o n a ’s d ir e c t i o n o n t h i s , i t is m y p r o p o s a l
t h a t w e d e a l w i th t h o s e a s p e c ts th a t a r e n o t c a u g h t u p in t h a t
in t e r c h a n g e b e t w e e n th e p a r ti e s a t th is p o i n t , b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e t w o
s e p a r a t e m a t t e r t h a t d o n o t in v o lv e M s Ms i m e l o o r M s C o e t z e e ’s
e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n t h a t a r e t h e fo c u s o f to d a y ’s e v i d e n c e
a n d o n c e t h a t p r o c e s s h a s c o m p l e t e i ts e lf o f c o u r s e i t w il l c o m e b e fo r e
y o u C h a ir f o r fi n a l d e t e r m i n a t io n .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i f M r K o n a h a s a n y a s p e c t s o f th o s e
r e s p o n s e s t h a t h e w is h e s to d e a l w i t h , w e c a n o f c o u r s e a ff o r d h i m a n d
o p p o r t u n i ty a t t h e e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. T h a t is fi n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r K o n a c a n y o u t e l l u s w h e n

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y o u w e r e a p p o i n te d a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f S . A . A ?
M R K O N A : R o u n d a b o u t th e e n d o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 2 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is q u i t e a f e w y e a r s b a c k i n d e e d .
M R K O N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d f o r h o w lo n g d id y o u o c c u p y t h a t p o s it i o n ?
M R K O N A : S j o e it w a s b r i e fl y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m m m .

I think if you go to page 2 of your

a ffi d a v i t y o u w o u ld h a v e t h e d a t e t h e r e , a t p a r a g r a p h 3 .

Is th a t

correct?
10

M R K O N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s t h e d a t e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : F ir s t f in d t h e d a te s fo r t h e tr a n s c r i p t . S t il l s p e c i fy t h e
days.
M R K O N A : S o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a f o r th e tr a n s c r i p t s o t h a t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
M R K O N A : O k a y. B a s i c a lly, I w a s a p p o i n t e d u n ti l 11 F e b r u a r y w h e r e I
w a s p u t i n o n , w h e r e I w a s s u s p e n d e d fr o m O ff ic e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n d id y o u t a k e u p t h e p o s i t io n o f C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r o f S . A . A .

20

MR KONA: Acting.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A c t i n g . In d e e d .
M R K O N A : Ye s , j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t l e t u s fi n is h w i t h r e g a r d to y o u r C h a i r m a i n s h i p .
Yo u w e r e a p p o i n t e d in S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 2 . . .[ in t e r v e n e s ] .
M R K O N A : Ye s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u s a y o n 11 F e b r u a r y y o u w e r e s u s p e n d e d
a n d w h e n w o u l d y o u , d i d y o u s e iz e to b e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
M R K O N A : I c e a s e d t o b e C h a ir p e r s o n r o u n d a b o u t t h e e n d o f th e o f
F e b r u a r y, t h a t is w h e n , b e c a u s e t h e la w y e r s a i d . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
M R K O N A : S o r r y ? T h e r e w a s a n A c ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R K O N A : Ye s . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.

W e ll n o w t h e m e r e f a c t th a t th e r e , y o u

w e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , n o t A c t i n g C h a ir p e r s o n ?
10

MR KONA: I am not. I was Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : T h e r e w a s C h a ir p e r s o n , I w a s a p p o i n t e d A c t i n g C E O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : A n d t h e n t h e y a p p o i n t e d a n Ac ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , d i d y o u r C h a ir m a n s h i p s e iz e d w h e n y o u g o t
appointed as CEO.
M R K O N A : N o , i t d id n o t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , w h e n d i d it s e iz e b e c a u s e if y o u w e r e o n
s u s p e n s i o n a n d s o m e b o d y w a s a p p o in t e d a s A c t i n g C h a ir p e r s o n , t h a t
w o u ld n o t b r in g a b o u t t h e t e r m i n a t io n o f y o u r C h a i r m a n s h i p .
M R K O N A : W h a t h a p p e n e d C h a ir, w a s t h e n t h e y s u s p e n d e d m e .
wrote back.

We

Th e l a w y e r s w r o t e t o t h e M i n is t r y a n d s a i d o k a y, s e e i n g

t h a t y o u h a v e te r m i n a te d b a s ic a l ly y o u h a v e s a i d I a m n o t s u i ta b l e t o

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s e r v e a s A c ti n g C E O , t h e n i t i s b e t t e r t h a n th a t w e r e v e r t b a c k , i t i s
b e t t e r th a n t h a t I r e v e r t b a c k t o m y p o s i ti o n o f C E O .

T h e n Mi n is te r

i m m e d i a t e ly s a id , h e i s g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s o f r e m o v i n g a B o a r d
Member and that is what he did.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

S o w a s t h e r e a ti m e w h e n t h e M in is t e r w a s

r e m o v i n g B o a r d M e m b e r s a n d y o u . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
M R K O N A : I w a s j u s t t h e o n l y B o a r d M e m b e r th a t w a s r e m o v e d t h a t
ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
10

MR KONA: That time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , y o u w e r e r e m o v e d b y th e M i n is t e r ?
M R K O N A : B y t h e M in is t e r. T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: When was that?
M R K O N A : C h a ir i t w a s r o u n d a b o u t M a r c h .
CHAIRPERSON: About March.
M R K O N A : Ar o u n d M a r c h .
CHAIRPERSON: 2013.
MR KONA: 2013 yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r K o n a i f I c a n j u s t d i r e c t y o u t o p a g e o n e o f
y o u r a ff i d a v i t , b e c a u s e th e r e y o u g iv e a d a t e o f 2 6 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 w h e n
y o u w e r e fr o m t h e B o a r d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Ye s , ja .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d a s C h a ir m a n o n
2 8 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 2 . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?

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M R K O N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. L e t u s j u s t g e t th e c h r o n o lo g y r ig h t i f w e
m a y f o l lo w in g o n fr o m t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n s . I f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e ,
y o u s a y y o u w e r e a p p o in t e d a s C h i e f Ex e c u tiv e O ffi c e r.
MR KONA: Acting.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o , Ac t in g i s m is s i n g fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 .
M R K O N A : Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t. S o , y o u w e r e a p p o i n ti n g a s A c ti n g C h ie f
E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r o n 1 2 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
10

M R K O N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t is a m a t t e r o f t w o w e e k s a f t e r y o u w e r e
a p p o i n t e d a s th e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
MR KONA: Indeed so.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d f o r h o w l o n g d i d y o u r e t a i n th e p o s it i o n o f
A c ti n g C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e o f S . A . A .
M R K O N A : U n t il I w a s s u s p e n d e d o n 11 F e b r u a r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n 11 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 .

20

M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n o n 2 6 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 w h e n y o u w e r e
r e m o v e d fr o m t h e B o a r d b y M i n is te r G i g a b a .

W h a t h a p p e n e d to y o u r

s t a tu s a s C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e ?
M R K O N A : W e ll w e q u e r i e d . T h e la w y e r s w r o t e b a c k a n d q u e r i e d a n d
s a i d t h e , I h a v e n o r e l a ti o n s h i p n o w w i t h th e C o m p a n y b e c a u s e m y

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a c ti n g p o s i ti o n o n ly, I w a s n o t a C o m p a n y e m p lo y e e .

M y a c ti n g

p o s i ti o n a s A c t in g C E O s i m p ly a r o s e fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t I w a s t h e
C h a ir m a n . I w a s a B o a r d M e m b e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m m m .
M R K O N A : B u t t h e n t h e C o m p a n y k n o w t h a t w i t h t h e ir l e g a l p e o p le
t h e y c o n ti n u e d th e n , h a d a h e a r i n g .

When they had already decided

w h o m t h e y w a n t e d to a p p o i n t a s a C E O , b u t w h a t is t h e b e a r i n g o f,
w h a t i s t h e u s e o f g o i n g th r o u g h a l l t h e s e p r o c e s s e s b e c a u s e y o u h a v e
a lr e a d y d e c i d e d w h o is g o i n g t o b e t h e C E O . W h a t i s g o i n g o n , b u t i t
10

n e v e r m a d e s e n s e a n d th e w e n t a h e a d a n d fir e d m e , a n d t h a t is h o w,
t h e p r o c e s s p l a y e d i ts e l f o u t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u s a y t h a t i t w a s s tr a n g e th a t a s a
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d o f S . A . A . y o u w o u ld b e in , i n Ac t in g C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e r o l e ?
M R K O N A : N o t r e a l ly.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y n o t .
M R K O N A : I m e a n h a p p e n s , i t h a p p e n s a ll t h e t i m e t h a t w h e n y o u a r e
g e t t in g t h e r e a n d t h e n a C E O is r e m o v e d . I t i s j u s t a te m p o r a r y A c ti n g
u n t il a r e p la c e m e n t C E O i s f o u n d a n d th e n y o u g o b a c k t o y o u r p o s i t io n

20

as Chairperson.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l I u n d e r s t a n d p e o p l e fr o m t h e M a n a g e m e n t
o f a n e n ti ty t a k in g u p a n d A c ti n g r o l e w h i le a p o s i ti o n n e e d s to b e
fi ll e d . I g u e s s w h a t I a m s tr u g g li n g w i t h i s , a n o n - e x e c u t iv e m e m b e r o f
a B o a r d , o f a n S O E b e c o m i n g a n A c ti n g C h i e f E x e c u tiv e . D ie d th a t n o t
raise any concerns for you?

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M R K O N A : P e r s o n a ll y, i t d i d n o t .

I t h i n k o ff la t e w e h a v e s e e n t h e

s a m e e v e n ts p l a y i n g t h e ms e lv e s o u t a t E s k o m w h e r e t h e C h a ir m a n o f
E s k o m w a n t a n d a c t e d a s , b a s ic a l ly b e c a m e b o t h , t o b o t h p o s i ti o n
b e c a m e a n E x e c u t iv e C h a ir p e r s o n , a n d s e t ti n g t h e r o l e o f C E O u n ti l t h e
C E O w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d t h e h e v a c a t e d t h e p o s i t io n , s o I d i d n o t s e e
a n y c o n f lic t o f i n t e r e s t p e r s e in t h a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n y o u w e r e r e m o v e d w h o r e p l a c e d y o u
as Chairperson?
MR KONA: It, ja was Myeni.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M y e n i ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .

Yo u g o o n i n y o u r a ffi d a v it a t a

la t e r p o i n t t o ta lk a b o u t y o u r e x p e r ie n c e i n t h e Av i a ti o n S e c to r. C o u l d
y o u t e ll th e C o m m i s s i o n a b i t a b o u t t h a t ?
M R K O N A : O k a y C h a ir, my b a c k g r o u n d w i t h S . A . A . s t e m s b a c k , w a y
b a c k t o t h e la t e 1 9 9 9 , a n d 1 9 9 8 w h e n I w a s w o r k i n g fo r Tr a n s n e t d u r in g
C o l e m a n ’s d a y s .

T h a t is w h e n I s t a r t e d w o r k i n g .

d o w n th e r o a d fr o m t h i s b u i ld i n g .

I was working yet

T h a t is w h e r e t h e Tr a n s n e t H e a d

O ff ic e w a s , a n d I u s e d to d o s o m e w o r k f o r S . A . A v i a t h e i n te r n a l a u d i t
20

s id e , a n d t h e n i n 2 0 0 0 I th e n m o v e d a n d m o v e d S . A . A . i n C o r p o r a t e
Fi n a n c e , a n d I w o r k e d f o r S . A . A u n ti l a b o u t 2 0 0 5 w h e n K iy a w a s
a p p o i n t e d a n d t h e n .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t K iy a N g u la ?
M R K O N A : K iy a N g u l a . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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M R K O N A : S o , I l e ft th e n b e c a u s e I w a s a n e x e c u t iv e t h e n w h e n K iy a
w a s a p p o i n te d .

T h e n I q u i t. A n d t h e n w e n t a n d w it h L u f t h a n s a , u n t il

r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 11 .
T h e n 2 0 1 2 th a t i s w h e n I m o v e d b a c k th e r e to S . A . A . T h a t is
r e a l ly my b a c k g r o u n d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d w h a t q u a li fi c a t io n d o y o u h o ld ?
MR

K O N A : C u r r e n tl y

Ma'am

I

have

an

Honours

fr o m

Andrews

U n iv e r s i ty a n d t h e n I h a v e a m a s t e r ’s i n b u s i n e s s a d m in is tr a ti o n f r o m
I M D i n S w it z e r l a n d . J a .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o m o v e i f w e m a y
t o p a g e e i g h t o f y o u r a ff id a v i t.
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t is a p a g e i s t h a t is h e a d e d th e S a x o n
W o r ld M e e ti n g . M r K o n a a t p a r a g r a p h 3 4 o n t h a t p a g e , y o u t a lk a b o u t
e v e n t s t h a t to o k p l a c e o n 2 9 O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 .

C a n y o u p le a s e t e ll th e

C o m m i s s i o n w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th a t d a y ?
M R K O N A : C h a ir, g o i n g b a c k to t h e s e e v e n t s , i t s ti ll h a u n ts m e t o d a y,
b e c a u s e I fo u n d i t s tr a n g e th a t a n A d v is o r o f t h e M in is t e r w o u l d c a l l m e
a n i n d i v i d u a l’s h o u s e .
20

I f s o m e b o d y w a n t s to m e e t m e i n my o ffic i a l

c a p a c i ty a s a n o ff ic ia l o f a n i n s t it u ti o n , th e y n e e d to c o m e a n d s e e m e
a t m y w o r k p l a c e . O n c e p e o p l e s t a r t s a y i n g n o l e t’s g o to t h e h o u s e o r
le ts g o p e o p l e o ffic e , t h e n y o u w i ll fi n d y o u r s e l f , it is j u s t a p r o b l e m a t ic
a r r a n g e m e n t.
W h y s h o u l d I g o a n d s e e t h e m ? I d o n ’ t n e e d t o s e e th e m , a n d
t h e s e a r e p r iv a t e c i ti z e n s . W h a t b u s i n e s s a m I d o i n g th e r e , a n d I r e a l ly

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f o u n d u n c o m f o r ta b le .

B u t o n t h e M i n is te r ’s A d v i s o r s i n s is te n c e ,

b e c a u s e h e r e a lly p u s h e d m e b e c a u s e h is v i e w w a s t h a t th e s e a r e
p e o p l e t h a t w e n e e d to s e e , I d i d n ’ t k n o w t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g to s e e t h e
G u p t a ’s a t t h e t i m e .
L a t e r o n I d i d n o t e v e n k n o w a b o u t t h e G u p t a f a m i ly a t t h e
ti m e , a n d h is v i e w w a s n o , t h e s e a r e i m p o r t a n t p e o p le t h a t w e n e e d t o
s e e t h e s e a r e i m p o r t a n t s t a k e h o ld e r s t h a t w e n e e d t o s e e y o u k n o w s o
t h a t t h e n a t l e a s t w e g a i n t h e ir s u p p o r t in t e r m s o f w o r k , i n t e r ms o f th e
w o r k th a t w e a r e g o i n g t o d o .
10

S o . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n w a s t h is ?
M R K O N A : I t is , th e m e e ti n g , th e m e e ti n g h a p p e n e d r o u n d a b o u t 2 9
O c t o b e r, l a t e O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R K O N A : J a s o h o w e v e r b e fo r e t h a t i s w h e n h e w h e n h e w a s p u s h i n g
me, because he wanted us to go extremely early and I was reluctant to
g o , I j u s t fo u n d u n c o m f o r t a b le . I w a s ju s t n o t h a p p y w i t h t h e m e e t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
happened.

20

I w o u l d lik e y o u t o t e l l t h e s t o r y a s it

Te ll m e w h e n h e fi r s t a p p r o a c h e d a b o u t th is v is i t, t h e

d is c u s s io n u p t o t h e t i m e y o u , y o u a g r e e d t o g o .
M R K O N A : O k a y . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t i n t e r j e c t .

Yo u h a v e

b e e n r e f e r r i n g t o t h e M in is t e r ’s a d v i s o r.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u ld y o u p le a s e a ls o j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d

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in d i c a t e th e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n .
M R K O N A : T h e M in is t e r A d v i s o r is S iy a M a h l a n g u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , in d i c a t e w h ic h M in is t e r a r e y o u ta lk i n g
M R K O N A : M i n i s t e r M a lu s i G ig a b a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

S o , te ll m e a s , fr o m t h e ti m e t h e A d v i s o r

M r M a h l a n g u a p p r o a c h e d y o u w i t h r e g a r d t o . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
M R K O N A : J a h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is v is i t, a n d t e ll m e h e e x c h a n g e , t h e r e a s o n s h e
gave, what you said and so on.
M R K O N A : C h a ir, b e c a u s e t h e e v e n t s th a t w e r e h a p p e n in g , d u r i n g th a t
ti m e , t h e r e w a s a lo t th a t h a p p e n e d t h a t h a p p e n e d v e r y q u ic k ly,
b e c a u s e w h e n I w a s a p p o i n te d a s t h e C h a i r ma n o f t h e B o a r d , t h e r e w a s
a s u d d e n r e s i g n a ti o n o f th e c u r r e n t B o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R K O N A : Ye s - y e s . T h e c u r r e n t B o a r d , s o a p p a r e n tl y s o m e b o d y fr o m
t h e M i n i s tr y r e l a t e to t h e B o a r d t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t g o in g to b e r e ta i n e d
as Board Members.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KONA: And then the Board Memb ers resigned in mass.

So

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : S o , t h e M i n i s tr y h a d t o r u s h t o e n g a g e w i th m e , s o t h a t I
c o u l d e n g a g e w i t h o th e r B o a r d M e m b e r s f o r u s to u r g e n t ly t a k e , to

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u r g e n tl y a s s u m e o u r p o s i ti o n .
T h e n d u r i n g t h a t p r o c e s s w h e n , w h ils t I w a s th e n b u s y tr y in g
t o g r a b b l e w i th th e s i t u a t i o n to s a y, w h a t is r e a ll y g o i n g o n a t S . A . A .
T h e a u d i t , t h e f i n a n c ia l s t a t e m e n ts t h e y w e r e n o t s i g n e d , t h e y w e r e
w a i ti n g fo r f in a n c ia l g u a r a n t e e s .

W h i ls t t h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g t h e C E O

t h a t is S is a N t s a m e l o w a s c o m i n g to m e , s a y i n g p l e a s e a s s u r e m y
p o s i ti o n .

Is m y p o s i ti o n s e c u r e , b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n h a v i n g is s u e s

w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t ? I d o n ’ t t h in k I h a v e g o t s u p p o r t .
I s a id S i s a , I j u s t c a m e in t o d a y.
10

p o s i ti o n i s s e c u r e o r i t is n o t s e c u r e .

I c a n ’t c o m e a n d s a y y o u r

J u s t d o y o u r jo b a n d I w il l d o

m i n e . I k n o w S is a w a y b a c k . S h e u s e d t o r e p o r t t o m e w a y b a c k w h e n
I w a s h e a d o f S u b s i d i a r i e s a s w e ll a t S . A . A . S o s h e is n o t s o m e b o d y
t h a t I d o n ’t , I k n o w h e r v e r y w e ll .

S o , I s a i d to h e r ju s t t a k e it e a s y,

a n d th e n w i th i n a c o u p l e o f d a y s , t h e n s h e a ls o r e s ig n e d .
A n d t h e n I h a d to g r a b b l e w i th a l l t h e s e is s u e s .
w a s h a p p e n i n g th e Mi n s t e r w a s a w a y.

H e w a s i n I ta ly.

W h i ls t t h a t
And then we

a r e b u s y tr y i n g t o s a y t o t h e M i n i s te r. T h e n w h a t d o w e d o w h i ls t t h i s
is h a p p e n i n g a n d s i m u l t a n e o u s l y w e h a v e g o t t h e m e d ia t h a t w e n e e d t o
a d d r e s s t o t e l l t h e m th a t t h e y d o n ’ t n e e d t o w o r r y t h e p la n e s a r e n o t
20

g o i n g t o f a ll fr o m th e s k y.
W e a r e t h e r e , w e k n o w w h a t w e a r e d o i n g , w e k n o w w h a t is
g o i n g o n , w e h a v e g o t m a n y y e a r s o f e x p e r i e n c e w i th t h e a ir l i n e w e
have been, our extensive knowledge of what happens at S.A.A. we are
v e r y c o m f o r t a b l e a b o u t th a t . S o , d u r in g t h a t w h o c o c o o n in g o f e v e n ts
t h a t w a s tr a n s p ir i n g th e n S iy a w a s t h e o n e t h e n w h o b e c a m e th e

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e a s i e s t l i n k b e t w e e n my s e l f a n d t h e M in is t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Who is that now?
M R K O N A : S iy a b o n g a M a h la n g u , t h e A d v i s o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahlangu?
M R K O N A : M r M a h l a n g u . T h e A d v i s o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Al r i g h t .
MR KONA: Ja.

S o , h e w o u ld c o m e a n d s a y t o m e , o k a y t h is i s w h a t

t h e M i n is t e r s a y s . F o r e x a m p le , i n te r ms o f c o m m i t t e e s a n d w h a t h a v e
y o u , b e c a u s e I h a v e t o c o m m u n i c a t e w it h t h e D e p a r t m e n t t o s a y o k a y
10

t h e s e a r e th e c o m m i t t e e s t h a t w e a r e p u t ti n g u p .

Is t h e D e p a r t m e n t

c o m f o r t a b l e . To o w e n e e d th e g u a r a n te e s . W h e n a r e w e g o i n g t o g e t
t h e g u a r a n te e s ?
S o h e b e c a m e m y li n k b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d t h e M i n i s t e r,
b e c a u s e I c o u ld g e t h o l d o f t h e A d v is o r r a t h e r t h a n th e M i n i s t e r,
b e c a u s e t h e M i n i s t e r w o u l d n o t a s e a s i l y a v a il a b l e a s M a h l a n g u f o r
things to get done.
S o th e n w a s , t h o s e e v e n t s w e r e h a p p e n i n g C h a ir, a n d h e c a m e
t o m e a n d s a id , t h a t is w h e n h e c a n a p p r o a c h t h e s u b j e c t t o m e , th e r e
is a f a m ily t h a t I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o , t h e r e a r e p e o p l e , h e d i d n o t s a y
20

t h is .

H e s a i d t h e r e a r e p e o p le t h a t I w o u ld li k e t o m e e t .

C e r t a in

s t a k e h o ld e r s , a n d t h e n h e s a i d , ja b u t y o u n e e d t o c o m e S a x o n w o l d t o
meet them.
A n d m y v ie w a s t h a t , b u t w h y c a n ’ t th e y c o m e t o A i r w a y s P a r k
t o t h e o ffi c e t h a t i s w h e r e I a m w o r k i n g . L e t t h e m c o m e to t h e o ffic e . I
m e a n h e l o o k e d a t m e in a c y n ic a l w a y a s i f y o u k n o w P a n d e l e y o u a r e

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m a d . D o y o u k n o w y o u a r e d e a l in g w i t h ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h o a r e tr a n s l a t e t o P a n d e la ?
M R K O N A : S o r r y.

Yo u a r e m a d .

Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w w h o th e s e a r e t h a t

y o u a r e d e a li n g w i th . S o , b u t I w a s s t ill p u z z l e d b y th is a n d I tr ie d to
a v o i d th e s u b j e c t a g a i n , b e c a u s e I s a id I a m b u s y a t t h e m o m e n t t h e r e
is a l o t h a p p e n i n g w i th i n th e a ir li n e a n d I n e e d to g e t a ll t h e s e a t le a s t ,
I n e e d to f e e l t h a t I a m i n c o n t r o l .

At the moment I am not yet in

c o n tr o l , a n d I d o n ’ t t h e n s e e t h e p o in t o f m e g o i n g t o m e e t p e o p le
w h il s t t h e r e is a l o t o f s t u ff u p i n t h e a ir.
10

T h e n I t h i n k a w e e k p a s s e d a n d th e n h e c a m e b a c k a g a i n , h e
w a s s a y i n g , w e n e e d t o g o , w e n e e d to g o , a n d I s a i d b u t I a m b u s y
p u s h i n g a p r o c e s s e s h e r e , I h a v e to u r g e n tl y d o a q u i c k u r g e n t
t u r n a r o u n d p l a n a n d I e x p l a in e d t o h i m th a t a t u r n a r o u n d , w h e n y o u d o
a n a ir li n e t u r n a r o u n d p l a n i t is n o t j u s t a b o u t c o u n ti n g , p u t t in g t o g e t h e r
n u m b e r s . Yo u fi r s t h a v e to d o a n e t w o r k p la n . Yo u d o a s c h e d u le p l a n
a n d f r o m t h e r e y o u d o t h e f in a n c i a l p l a n a n d y o u d o y o u r a ir c r a f t
p l a n n in g t o s e e h o w m a n y a i r c r a ft t h a t I n e e d a n d t h e n i t a l l f it s i n t o
your business plan.
S o , i t i s h i g h l y i n v o lv in g i t s e x tr e m e ly c o m p l e x k in d o f w o r k . I t

20

is n o t s t u ff th a t y o u c a n j u s t r u s h i n to a n d y o u d o i t . S o , I s a i d I a m
b u s y p u t t in g th is t h i n g t o g e t h e r b e c a u s e y o u , t h e D e p a r t m e n t h a s s a i d
t o u s t h e y u r g e n t ly t u r n a r o u n d p la n . S o , t o s a y w h a t is th e f u t u r e s iz e
a n d c h i p o f S . A . A . g o i n g t o b e ? G o i n g f o r w a r d . A n d th e n i t k i n d o f l ik e
d is a p p e a r e d . H e k i n d o f a ll o w e d m e t o d o , h e g a v e m e s p a c e .
A n d t h e n h e c a m e b a c k a g a in . R o u n d a b o u t t h e e n d o f O c t o b e r

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
s a y in g n o w w e to g o .
because

now

we

are

A n d I a m s a y in g l e t t h e s e p e o p l e c o m e h e r e
busy

D e p a r t m e n t, h e s a y s n o - n o - n o .

with

t h is

turnaround

Now it is urgent.

plan

th a t

the

W e h a v e t o th e r e .

N o w l it t le d i d I k n o w I w a s g o i n g t o t h e G u p t a ’s h o u s e C h a ir. I d id n o t
know where I was going to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n e a r li e r y o u r e f e r r e d t o h i m h a v in g s a i d y o u
w o u ld h a v e t o g o t o S a x o n w o l d i s y o u r r e - c o l l e c ti o n c o r r e c t t h a t t h a t i s
w h a t h e s a id . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R K O N A : Ye s - y e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t o g o to S a x o n w o l d .
M R K O N A : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a t t h a t s ta g e h e d i d n o t t e l l y o u . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
M R K O N A : I d i d n ’ t k n o w a b o u t t h e G u p ta ’s . . .[ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s - y e s .
M R K O N A : I d id n o t k n o w C h a ir.

I tr i e d to s a y w h o i s it t h a t w e a r e

m e e ti n g , a n d h e k e p t i t s e c r e t t o m e , h e s a y s th e y a r e ju s t i m p o r t a n t
s t a k e h o ld e r s t h a t w e n e e d t o m a k e .
A n d i n m y v i e w t h a t a n y b o d y w h o is i m p o r ta n t , w h o w a n ts t o
s e e m e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : I f h e is n o t a G o v e r n m e n t O ff i c ia l , t h e n t h e y m u s t c o m e t o
m y o ff ic e , b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e I a m a p p ly in g my tr a d e a n d t h a t i s
where I am working.
S o th e n r o u n d a b o u t t h e e n d o f t h e m o n t h I s a i d , I s a i d , o k a y
S iy a l e t m e c o m e . T h e n h e s e t u p t h e a p p o in t m e n t . It w a s ju s t a f t e r

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lu n c h , I l e ft . A n d I j u s t p la n n e d t o s a y t o h i m , I a m g o i n g to m a k e s u r e
t h a t w h e n I d o n e t h e r e , b e c a u s e o f t h a t tr a ffic I d o n ’ t w a n t t o g o b a c k
t o t h e o ff ic e . I w a n t t o b e a b l e t o d r i v e b a c k t o m y h o u s e i n P r e to r i a .
S o , w e f in is h e d , I fi n is h e d m y w o r k a t t h e o ff ic e . D r o v e b a c k
a n d th e n d r o v e t o S a x o n w o l d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To S a x o n w o l d ?
M R K O N A : Ye s . By m y s e l f a n d t h e n I g o t t h e r e b e f o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u g o in g to m e e t t h e r e ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t tr a v e l t o g e t h e r .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ].
MR KONA: No, we are going to meet.

W e a r e g o in g t o m e e t th e r e .

H e w a s c o m i n g fr o m P r e t o r ia , s o h e s a id w e m e t a t S a x o n w o ld .
S o , w e g o t in t h e r e . I w a it e d fo r h i m o u ts i d e a n d th e n h e c a m e
a n d t h e n h e c a m e a n d th e n w e in f o r m e d t h e s e c u r i t y t h a t n o I a m
coming to the meeting.
A n d t h e n i m m e d i a t e ly I a r r iv e d , a n d I d r o v e t h r o u g h .

And

t h e r e w a s s o m e b o d y w h o w e l c o m e d u s , w h o w e lc o m e d m e a t th e g a t e .
H e s e e m e d t o b e f a m il i a r w i th th e a r r a n g e m e n t t h e r e . I w a s n o t. A n d
t h e n m y c e ll p h o n e w a s t a k e n .
20

T h e y p u t it w h e r e t h e y s t o r e t h e ir p h o n e s a n d I w a s l e d t o
a n o t h e r r o o m o n th e s id e w h e r e b a s i c a lly t h e r e w a s a , t h e r e w a s To n y
G u p t a , a n d D u d u z a n i Zu m a a n d Ts h e p is o M a g u s h e l e a n d S iy a w a s
there. Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
taken?
M R K O N A : T h e y s a i d t h e y d o n ’ t th e m e e ti n g , i t is c o m m o n p r a c tic e
t h a t e v e r y b o d y w h o c o m e s h e r e , t h e y ta k e t h e ir c e ll p h o n e s . S o , w h e n
y o u a r e g o i n g in t h e r e , y o u l e a v e y o u c e l l p h o n e b e h i n d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h a t d i d y o u m a k e o f t h a t ?
M R K O N A : I j u s t f o u n d i t s tr a n g e . B u t w h o a m I t o b e a s k i n g ? I a m
b e i n g le d b y t h e m i n i s t e r ’s a d v is o r s o f o r m e h e k n e w w h a t h e w a s
t a lk in g a b o u t . S o , I s a id , o k a y, le t m e g o a n d s e e . I d i d n o t e v e n k n o w
w h o I w a s g o i n g w it h a t t h e t i m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h i s p h o n e ta k e n a s w e ll ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u c o u l d j u s t s k e tc h f o r u s , I k n o w y o u
a r e g o in g b a c k a f e w y e a r s . B u t y o u i n d i c a te d w h o w a s i n t h e m e e t i n g
with you.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n y o u tr y a n d t e ll u s w h e n y o u e n t e r e d t h e

r o o m , w e r e t h e y a lr e a d y t h e r e ? D i d t h e y j o i n y o u a t s o m e p o in t ? Ta k e
u s th r o u g h t h e e v e n ts i f y o u c a n .
20

MR KONA:

O k a y.

W h e n I e n t e r e d th e r o o m , I t h in k D u d u z a n e , To n y

a n d Ts h e p is o w e r e a lr e a d y t h e r e . N o w s o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: Had you met the two before?
M R K O N A : I k n o w Ts h e p is o fr o m Fr e e S t a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
MR KONA:

J a , D u d u z a n e I h a v e s e e n h i m o n T V s o i t w a s th e fir s t

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ti m e t o m e e t h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KONA: I have never met him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KONA:

J a , s o a n d To n y, h e i n tr o d u c e d h i m s e l f a s To n y.

greeted and I was shown a place to sit.

So, I

We just exchanged

p l e a s a n tr ie s a n d I w a s a s k e d w h e th e r I w a n te d s o m e th i n g to d r in k . If I
w a n t e d s o m e t h in g t o d r i n k a n d I s a i d - I w a s o ff e r e d te a a n d C h a i t e a
and what have you and I ordered- I asked for some Chai tea.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e d is c u s s i o n ?
MR KONA:

Th e n it w a s a v e r y s tr a n g e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e c a u s e it w a s

lik e I w a s b e in g w e l c o m e d to th e f a m il y. I t w a s j u s t g u y s e x c h a n g i n g
p l e a s a n tr ie s .

No,

you

are

a

clever

g u y.

SA

is

in

trouble.

C o n g r a tu la t io n s o n y o u r a p p o in t m e n t . S o , I f o u n d i t s t r a n g e . B u t w h e n
t h a t h a p p e n s i t m a k e s y o u - y o u h a v e a g o o d fe e l i n g s o y o u k i n d o f s ta r t
t o r e la x b e c a u s e w h e n p e o p le a r e t e l li n g y o u t h a t y o u a r e c l e v e r y o u
c a n g e t e x c i t e d . S o , a n y o u r e la x I m e a n I w a s t h e f ir s t t i m e to m e e t
t h e g u y s o f o r h i m t o b e te ll in g m e t h a t I a m c l e v e r. H e s t a r t e d a s k in g
m e w h e r e d i d I s tu d y a n d I t o ld h i m w h e r e I h a v e s tu d i e d . S o , th e g u y
20

s a y s , o h y o u a r e w e l l tr a v e ll e d . I s a i d , a b s o l u t e l y I h a v e w e l l- tr a v e l le d .
Yo u l ik e t h e a ir l in e ?

S o , I s a i d , y e s , I e n j o y w o r k i n g f o r t h e a ir l i n e .

A n d s o t h a t is h o w t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n w e n t. A n d th e n S iy a s a y, o h I s e e
y o u k n o w Ts h e p i s o . S o , I s a y y e s , I k n o w h i m , I k n o w h i m w e ll . A n d
Duduzane?

I s a y, n o , d o n o t k n o w D u d u z a n e .

But they never said

a n y th in g . T h e p e r s o n w a s j u s t d o i n g t h e t a lk i n g w a s To n y.

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S o th e n in t h e - a s w e a r e b u s y a c t u a l ly w i t h p l e a s a n tr i e s w e s ta r t e d t o
m o v e t o b a s ic a l ly to m y j o b .

W h a t I w a s b u s y w i th , w i t h th e y a i r li n e

t h a t t h e a i r li n e is f a c i n g s o m e t u r b u l e n c e s . T h e r e a r e s o m e c h a ll e n g e s
t h a t i t is g o i n g t h r o u g h . A n d f o r m e b e i n g le d b y th e - S iy a M a h l a n g u ,
t h e M i n is te r ’s a d v is o r, I w a s tr y in g t o g e t t o , to s a y w h a t is t h i s m e e ti n g
r e a l ly a b o u t b e c a u s e I a m n o t - I c a n n o t r e a l ly g e t i t . B e c a u s e th e y a r e
n o t c o m in g o u t t o s a y w h a t is t h is m e t in g a b o u t a n d t h e n . ..
( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: So where there 4 of you in the room?
10

MR KONA: 5.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r s e l f, M r M a h l a n g u - o h 5 .
MR KONA: 5 yes.
CHAIRPERSON: There were 5 of you.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r s e l f, M r M a h l a n g u , M r . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
MR KONA: Mr Zuma.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ts h e p i s o M a g a s h u l e .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr D u d u z a n e Z u m a a n d t h e n M r To n y G u p t a .

20

M R K O N A : G u p ta , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R K O N A : J a . S o , w e s ta r t e d t o g e t t o t h e c h a l le n g e s t h a t t h e a ir li n e
is g o i n g t h r o u g h a n d o b v io u s ly w i th t h o s e c h a ll e n g e s th a t t h e a ir l in e
w a s g o i n g t h r o u g h w e a r e b u s y n e g o ti a ti n g f o r a g u a r a n te e w i t h
Tr e a s u r y t o is s u e u s w i t h t h e 5 b i ll io n r a n d g u a r a n t e e .

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H o w e v e r, t h e

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
c o n d i ti o n s f o r t h e g u a r a n te e w a s fo r u s t o h a v e a b u s i n e s s p l a n th a t
t h e Tr e a s u r y c a n r e l y o n g o in g f o r w a r d , th o s e w e r e s o m e o f th e
c o n d i ti o n s .
N o w d u r i n g th e p r o c e s s i f I m i g h t s a y t h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a p p a r e n tly,
w e - I a s k e d t h e s u p p ly c h a in g u y s t o u r g e n t ly is s u e a t e n d e r - a q u ic k
c o n s u l t in g te n d e r. A s p a r t o f my d e l e g a ti o n o f a u th o r i ty I w a s a l lo w e d
t o a p p o in t a n y c o n s u l ta n t c h a ir u p t o 1 0 0 m il li o n w i th o u t g o i n g t h r o u g h
a p r o c e s s . J a , I h a d t h a t p e r m is s i o n t o d o . B u t b e c a u s e I w a s a w a r e
t h a t s h o u l d o n e g o t h r o u g h t h i s p r o c e s s w i t h o u t h a v in g t a k e n t h r o u g h
10

s o m e fo r m o f p r o c e s s , e is h , y o u a r e g o i n g to fi n d y o u r s e lf h a v i n g s o m e
is s u e s b e c a u s e o f t h e i m p o r ta n c e o f t h i s c o n s u l t in g a s s ig n m e n t t o t h e
f u t u r e s u s t a i n a b il i ty o f th e a i r li n e .

S o I b a s ic a lly t h e n d e c i d e d t o l e t

t h e s u p p ly c h a in g u y s g o t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s b u t I t o l d t h e m t h a t g o
t h r o u g h th is u r g e n t p r o c e s s a n d c o m e u p a n d g iv e m e - g e t y o u r
p r e f e r r e d s u p p li e r s a n d j u s t a s k th e m t o u r g e n tl y g iv e u s a q u o t e fo r u s
t o h e l p u s w i th t h a t t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y.
B y t h e t i m e I w a s b e i n g c a ll e d t o th is m e e t in g , s u p p l y c h a in h a d a l r e a d y
s e l e c t e d a s u p p l ie r a n d w e a r e b u s y n o w n e g o ti a ti n g . W e h a d i n fo r m e d
t h e s u p p l ie r a n d w e a r e b u s y n o w n e g o ti a ti n g t h e te r ms w it h t h e
20

s u p p li e r f o r t h e m t o u r g e n t ly s t a r t c o m in g t o a s s i s t u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e s u p p l i e r - d o y o u s a y t h e s u p p l ie r w o u l d b e a
consultant to you?
M R K O N A : A c o n s u l t in g c o m p a n y, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c o n s u lt i n g c o m p a n y.
M R K O N A : A c o n s u l t in g c o m p a n y, y e s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I n g e n e r a l , o r w i th r e g a r d to s p e c i fic is s u e s ?
M R K O N A : C h a ir, i t w a s f o r th e s p e c if ic f o r t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , f o r t o h e l p w i t h t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f th e b u s in e s s

plan.
M R K O N A : Ye s , w i t h t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n t u r n a r o u n d is s u e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
M R K O N A : N o w t h e s u p p ly c h a i n g u y s , w e d o n o t g e t i n v o l v e d w i t h t h e
s u p p ly c h a i n i s s u e s . J a , i t i s p u r e l y fr o m w h e r e w e s i t , i m m e d i a t e ly y o u
s e e i f I a s a n a c c o u n ti n g o ffi c e r t h e n g e ts m y s e l f i n v o l v e d i n s u p p l y
10

c h a i n is s u e s t h e n w e a r e g o i n g t o fi n d o u r s e lv e s h a v i n g p r o b l e m s .
B e c a u s e t h e n e s p e c ia ll y th o s e k e y k i n d s o f a g r e e m e n ts b e c a u s e i t is
c o n te s t a n t’s t e r r i to r y. P e o p l e c o n t e s t t o s a y, w h a t p r o c e s s e s h a v e y o u
g o n e ? W h y h a v e y o u c h o s e n t h i s o n e o v e r th a t o n e ? S o , I w a s f a i r ly
a w a r e o f t h o s e k i n d o f i s s u e s - t h o s e is s u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I ju s t w a n t t o a ls o g e t c l a r i fic a ti o n .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e t i m e y o u s o u g h t t h is s u p p li e r.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s e e k t h a t s u p p li e r in p o s i ti o n o f C h a i r p e r s o n

20

o f t h e b o a r d o r w e r e y o u a lr e a d y A c ti n g C E O ?
M R K O N A : I w a s a lr e a d y A c ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , a n d y o u s o u g h t t h i s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In y o u r c a p a c i ty a s Ac t in g . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
M R K O N A : A c ti n g , y e s A c ti n g .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o x y.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
M R K O N A : J a . S o , th e s u p p li e r t h a t w a s c h o s e n C h a ir t h e n w a s th e n
a s I e l a b o r a t e o n m y c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h th e G u p t a ’s , I a m g iv i n g y o u t h is
b a c k g r o u n d s o t h a t w h e n I t h e n u n p a c k th e c o n v e r s a t io n w it h t h e
G u p t a ’s t h e n i t w i ll m a k e s e n s e t o y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : Th e n i n te r m s o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n th e n t h a t tr a n s p ir e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I u n d e r s t a n d y e s .
M R K O N A : A t t h e t i m e I w a s n o t a w a r e h o w e v e r i n h in d s ig h t t h e n w h e n
I w a s s t a r te d to l o o k b a c k t h e n i t b e c a m e c le a r w h a t w a s g o i n g o n a n d
w h y t h e y h a d to u r g e n t ly m e e t w it h m e a n d w h a t w a s g o i n g o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : S o w e - th e s u p p ly c h a i n g u y s c h o s e L u f th a n s a C o n s u l t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g iv e th e n a m e a g a in .
M R K O N A : L u ft h a n s a C o n s u l ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R K O N A : J a . L u ft h a n s a C o n s u l ti n g , th e y c a m e i n a t a p p r o x i m a t e l y 6

20

m il li o n r a n d , y e s .
q u o t a t i o n s fr o m .

T h e r e w e r e t h r e e c o m p a n i e s th a t t h e y a s k e d f o r
I f o r g e t th e t h ir d o n e , h o w e v e r th e s e c o n d o n e w a s

M c K in s e y C o n s u l t in g . Mc K i n s e y c a m e i n a t 4 0 m il li o n r a n d , j a . S o , it
was a no ... (intervenes)
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d i ff e r e n c e w a s ju s t t o o b i g .
M R K O N A : I t w a s a n o b r a i n e r C h a ir.

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CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R K O N A : It w a s a n o b r a i n e r. H e r e y o u h a v e a c o m p a n y th a t i s b u s y
lo s i n g m o n e y a n d th e n y o u h a v e a n e n t i t y t h a t- it s a ir l i n e c r e d e n t ia ls
a r e n o t a s s t r o n g a s L u f th a n s a C o n s u l ti n g a n d is c h a r g i n g u s m o r e th a n
6 ti m e s w h a t L u f t h a n s a C o n s u l t in g w a s c h a r g i n g u s . S o , f o r t h e s u p p ly
c h a i n g u y s i t w a s c l e a r.

Th e y c a m e i n , t o l d m e t h e p r o c e s s th e y h a d

a n d I w a s fi n e w it h t h e m . I t o ld t h e m , g o a h e a d a n d s t a r t e n g a g in g w i t h
t h is c o m p a n y. Te ll th e o t h e r g u y s t h a t t h e y h a v e n o t m a d e i t , t h a t s o r r y
t h e y h a v e n o t m a d e it .
10

S o , w h i ls t n o w I g o to t h is m e e ti n g a t th e G u p t a ’s t h e r e is t h is t h i n g
p l a y in g i n th e b a c k g r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a t th a t ti m e , y o u c o u l d . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
MR KONA: I am not aware.
CHAIRPERSON: Could make no connection.
M R K O N A : Ye s , I a m n o t a w a r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R K O N A : O f w h a t is h a p p e n in g . N o w w e g o t o - s o w e s ta r t t a lk i n g
a b o u t th e c h a l l e n g e s t h a t t h e a ir li n e is f a c i n g .

And we start talking

a b o u t t h e tu r n a r o u n d p la n s t h a t o b v i o u s l y I h a v e t o u r g e n t ly h a v e t o
20

s u b m i t a t u r n a r o u n d p la n a n d a l l th is .

A n d th e n i t c o m e s to t h i s . . .

( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is s u e o f a b u s i n e s s p l a n .
M R K O N A : Ye s , is s u e o f t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n . T h e n w h i ls t w e a r e b u s y
e n g a g i n g t h e n To n y s a y s t o m e , b y t h e w a y, s o r r y b e fo r e I c o n t i n u e , I
h a v e t o w e lc o m e y o u i n t o t h e f a m ily.

Yo u a r e n o w p a r t o f th e f a m ily.

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S o . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: What did you think that meant at that time?
MR KONA:

C h a ir, I a m c o n f u s e d n o w b e c a u s e I n e e d t o k n o w w h a t

f a m ily I a m b e in g w e lc o m e d i n to a n d I s ti ll d o n o t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Mm.
M R K O N A : T h a t w h a t f a m il y I- s o t h e n To n y s a y, b y t h e w a y w e k n o w
y o u h a v e n o t b e e n p a i d . A n d I h a d n o t b e e n p a i d C h a ir, in S e p t e m b e r I
w a s n o t p a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r s a la r y ?
10

M R K O N A : Ye s , I h a d n o t b e e n p a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a s A c t i n g C E O .
M R K O N A : B o t h a s Ac t in g a n d a s c h a ir p e r s o n , I h a d n o t b e e n p a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : H e s a y s , w e k n o w y o u h a v e n o t b e e n p a i d . H e r e is a R 1 0 0
0 0 0 b u t w e a r e j u s t w e lc o m i n g y o u i n to t h e f a m i ly. W e l o o k a f t e r e a c h
o th e r. S o , I c o m e . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , i t is lik e a n in tr o d u c ti o n .
M R K O N A : Ye s . S o C h a ir, I lo o k a t To n y a n d s a y, b u t o k a y, b u t y o u d o

20

n o t n e e d t o p a y m e t h is m o n e y.

W h a t a r e y o u p a y i n g m e t h is m o n e y

for?

I am okay so.

I d o n o t n e e d th e m o n e y.

Th e n h e l o o k s a t m e

c y n ic a l ly a n d s a y s , b u t w h a t k in d o f a g u y w o u l d - a r e y o u r e fu s i n g t h i s
m o n e y ? A n d h e s a y s t o m e , n o h e r e is R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . I c a n g iv e y o u - h e r e
is R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, d i d y o u s a y t h e w a y h e l o o k e d a t y o u

m a d e y o u t h i n k h e w a s a s k i n g h i m s e l f . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )

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M R K O N A : Ye s , h i s e x p r e s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t k i n d o f a g u y, n o t th a t h e s a id s o . . .

( in t e r v e n e s )
MR KONA: No, he did not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , h is e x p r e s s i o n .
M R K O N A : Ye s , h i s e x p r e s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G a v e y o u th a t m e s s a g e .
M R K O N A : Ye s , a n d h e n c e t h a t is w h y t h e n h e s a i d , m a y b e l e t m e t a k e
it u p b e c a u s e m a y b e th is g u y ’s p r ic e is m u c h h i g h e r.
10

So, I said, no

To n y, y o u d o n o t n e e d t o g i v e m e m o n e y. I d o n o t n e e d y o u r m o n e y. I
a m f a ir l y o k a y.

I do not need- I am not a wealthy person but I am

s u r v iv in g w it h m y m e a g r e m e a n s t h a t I s c r a tc h h e r e a n d t h e r e . Yo u d o
n o t n e e d to p a y m e m o n e y f o r a n y t h i n g .

T h e n t h e e x p r e s s i o n o n h is

f a c e c h a n g e d a n d t h e n h e w a s lik e , o k a y w h a t i s t h e s to r y w i th t h e
c o n s u l t in g c o m p a n y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t a f te r h e h a d i n c r e a s e d t h e a m o u n t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, j u s t d e a l w it h t h a t . I t h o u g h t I m is s e d th a t .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i n c r e a s e d t h e a m o u n t to h o w m u c h ?
M R K O N A : To R 5 0 0 0 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a t h e w a s o ffe r i n g y o u .
M R K O N A : H e w a s o ff e r i n g m e .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : I m m e d i a t e ly.
M R K O N A : Ye s , t h e m o n e y w a s t h e r e i n c a s h . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e w a s j u s t g iv i n g y o u th e m o n e y, h e w a s n o t .. .
( in t e r v e n e s )
M R K O N A : Ye s , h e w a s j u s t g i v i n g m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s n o t p u t ti n g a n y c o n d it i o n ?
MR KONA:

C h a ir, I c o m e f r o m a r u r a l f a m ily.

M y p a r e n ts a r e o l d

s c h o o l p e o p l e a n d m y f a t h e r a l w a y s t a u g h t m e t h a t t h e r e i s n o fr e e
lu n c h i n th is w o r l d . J a , s o i f s o m e b o d y g iv e s y o u m o n e y y o u w il l p a y
10

t h e p r ic e a n d s o I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t I w a s g e t t in g m y s e l f in v o lv e d w i th
a n d I w a s ju s t n o t g o i n g t o ta k e m o n e y fr o m h i m . I f . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m a s tr a n g e r s o t o s p e a k .?
M R K O N A : Fr o m a s tr a n g e r. J a , i t is t h e fir s t t i m e I m e e t w i t h h i m a n d
t h e n h e is g iv in g m e m o n e y, f o r w h a t ? W h a t d o e s h e e x p e c t fr o m m e ?
I just I squarely refused so the mood in the room and the expression in
h is f a c e c h a n g e d . A n d t h e n i m m e d i a te ly . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr K o n a .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u d o n o t m in d ju s t b e fo r e y o u m o v e to w h a t

20

h a p p e n e d n e x t , I w o u l d j u s t li k e t o p r o b e a fe w a s p e c ts o f t h a t i n t o
c h a n g e i f I m a y.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a i d t h a t t h e r e w a s r e fe r e n c e m a d e t o th e
f a c t t h a t y o u h a d n o t b e e n p a id .
M R K O N A : Ye s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d id t h e y k n o w th a t i n fo r m a ti o n ?
MR KONA:

I a s s u m e t h a t t h e a d v is o r k n o w s b e c a u s e o u r p a y i s

a p p r o v e d b y t h e M i n is tr y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d d id y o u r e g a r d i t a s s tr a n g e a t t h e t i m e

t h a t th e y k n e w t h e s t a t u s p a y m e n t o f y o u r s a l a r y ?
MR KONA:
me.

A b s o l u te ly, n o h is k n o w l e d g e w a s - I m e a n it j u s t b a ffl e d

B u t I w a s t o ld b y t h e M i n is te r a d v is o r t h a t h e i s a n i m p o r ta n t

s t a k e h o ld e r.

S o , h is l e v e l o f k n o w le d g e s e e m e d e x tr a o r d i n a r y w h e n I

g o t t h e ir th o u g h ts o f t h e e v e n ts t h a t a r e h a p p e n i n g . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t s a l a r y p a y m e n t s a r e p r iv a t e m a t te r s , a r e

t h e y n o t?
M R K O N A : A b s o lu t e l y, j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u m o v e d o n a n d y o u s a i d h e o ffe r e d
y o u , h e h a n d e d y o u - I w a n t to g e t c l e a r. Wa s t h e r e c a s h i n t h e r o o m ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w m u c h ?
MR KONA:

W e l l , h e s a i d t h e r e i s R 1 0 0 0 0 0 a n d I s a i d , n o I a m n o t-

y o u d o n o t n e e d t o p a y m e a n y t h i n g . Th e n h e s a i d , n o t h e n I w il l g iv e
y o u R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . I s a i d , n o d o n o t w o r r y, I d o n o t n e e d t h e m o n e y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M r K o n a , t h e tr a n s c r ip t d o e s n o t p ic k u p

your body language.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r m o v e m e n ts , j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o , w e ju s t n e e d t o b e q u i t e c le a r.

in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e w a s t h e fi r s t o ff e r o f a R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .
a c t u a ll y a R 1 0 0 0 0 0 i n c a s h ?

Page 96 of 204

Yo u

Th e r e w a s

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t M r G u p t a o ff e r e d o v e r t o y o u i n h i s h a n d .
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR KONA:

Ye s .

H e s a id i t is 1 0 0 0 0 0 .

I d id n o t c o u n t i t , j a s o . . .

( in t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Was it a lot of notes?
M R K O N A : Ye s , it w a s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M R K O N A : Ye s , it w a s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e n w h e n h e i n c r e a s e s it , is t h e r e m o r e

c a s h th a t i s o b ta i n e d o r n o t?
M R K O N A : N o , h e w a s s a y i n g I w il l g iv e y o u R 5 0 0 0 0 0 i f y o u a r e n o t
h a p p y w it h t h i s b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o w p a r t o f t h e f a m il y. I s a id , n o , d o
n o t w o r r y To n y. I a m n o t in t e r e s te d . I a m a c iv i l s e r v a n t. I a m s e r v i n g
t h e s t a te s o y o u d o n o t n e e d to p a y m e a n d . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d y o u m a k e o f th a t a m o u n t o f c a s h
b e i n g a v a i la b le ?
MR KONA:
20

W e l l it is - I m e a n fo r m e I k i n d o f li k e s t a r te d t o f e e l

u n c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h t h e w h o l e th in g to k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t is g o i n g o n .
T h a t t h e n I m e a n n o b o d y is g o i n g t o g i v e y o u s o m u c h m o n e y f o r
n o t h i n g . J a a n d m o r e o v e r t h e n if p e o p le a r e o ffe r i n g y o u t h o s e k i n d s o f
m o n e y th e n i t i s c l e a r th a t th e y w o u l d w a n t to c o m p r o m i s e y o u i n s o m e
w a y o r t h e o t h e r.

T h e n t o m o r r o w e v e n i f I g i v e y o u m o n e y t o d a y,

t o m o r r o w I w i ll t e l l y o u t h a t w h e n I w il l n e e d y o u to d o s o m e th in g , th e n

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
y o u s a y n o I c a n n o t d o i t . T h e n y o u c o m e a n d s a y, b u t I g a v e y o u h a lf
a m ill i o n r a n d , I w a n t y o u t o d o th is a n d y o u c a n n o t s a y n o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n .. . ( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e r e - s o r r y.

W h e r e d id h e t a k e th is c a s h f r o m i n

the room?
M R K O N A : F r o m t h e d r a w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t fr o m h is p o c k e t s ?
M R K O N A : N o , f r o m h is d r a w s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m h is ?
10

MR KONA:

F r o m h is d r a w s .

I t is a - C h a ir, t h a t r o o m i t i s a - C h a ir,

t h e s e a r e t r a u m a ti c e v e n ts f o r m e b u t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I a m s o r r y.

W e n e e d t o h e a r.

Fe e l fr e e to . ..

( in t e r v e n e s )
MR KONA:

J a , t h e r o o m is a r r a n g e d i n s u c h a w a y t h a t y o u s i t b u t

t h e r e is s o m e d r a w s th a t h e w a s o p e n i n g , j a b e h i n d h i m w h e r e t h is
money was.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : Ye s , a n d s o h e to o k t h e m o n e y fr o m t h o s e d r a w s a n d s a y t o
me, here is R100 000.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KONA:

J a s o m y a s s u m p t io n is th a t i f I s a i d I w a n t t h e 5 0 0 , h e

w o u ld h a v e o p e n e d a d d i ti o n a l d r a w s t o g r a b t h e 5 0 0 0 0 0 b e c a u s e .. .
( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : I t h i n k i f I h a d s a i d I w a n t 5 0 0 0 0 0 , th e m o n e y w a s t h e r e .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KONA:

T h e r e w a s n o th i n g t h a t m a d e m e b e l ie v e t h e m o n e y w a s

not there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KONA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

But when he opened the draws, did you see more

m o n e y th a n t h e r e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
MR KONA: I could not see what he took ... (intervenes)
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e t o o k R 1 0 0 0 0 0 fr o m t h e d r a w.
10

M R K O N A : H e to o k t h e m o n e y fr o m t h e d r a w, y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: And you took it that there was more.
M R K O N A : Th e r e w a s m o r e m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e t h is R 1 0 0 0 0 0 c a m e fr o m .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - I a m s o r r y. A n d a f t e r y o u h a d r e j e c t e d i t , d i d h e
p u t it b a c k ?
M R K O N A : H e p u t i t b a c k i n th e d r a w.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e a t t h e p o in t i n y o u r r e te ll i n g o f th e s t o r y
M r K o n a w h e r e y o u s a id t h a t y o u h a d r e f u s e d i t a n d t h e m o o d c h a n g e d
in t h e m e e ti n g . W h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e a ft e r ?

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MR KONA:

J a , th e m o o d c h a n g e d t h e n i m m e d i a te ly m o v e d i n to t h e

t u r n a r o u n d c o n t r a c t t o c o m e a n d s a y, y e s w h a t is th is - h o w fa r is th a t
c o n tr a c t d o n e ?

H a s i t b e e n g iv e n a lr e a d y ?

And I said, ja no, the

p e o p l e h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n in f o r m e d . W e a r e d o n e w i t h t h e t u r n a r o u n d
plan.

A n d h e w a s t h e n , h e w a s l iv i d C h a ir b e c a u s e th e n i t w a s li k e ,

w h o i s g o i n g t o b e d o i n g th e tu r n a r o u n d p la n ? I s a i d , n o L u f th a n s a is
g o i n g t o b e d o in g . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is g o in g to w h a t ?
MR KONA: Who is going to be doing the turnaround plan?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , h e w a n t e d th e n a m e o f t h e s u p p l i e r.
M R K O N A : Ye s , t h e n a m e o f th e - y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J u s t b e f o r e th e m o o d c h a n g e d .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h a t , w a s h e f r i e n d ly t o w a r d s y o u ?
M R K O N A : A b s o l u te ly. R e m e m b e r C h a ir, I w a s b e in g p r a is e d f o r b e i n g
a s m a r t g u y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r b e i n g a s m a r t g u y, y e s .
M R K O N A : A h y o u a r e c l e v e r. Yo u a r e p o w e r f u l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R K O N A : Yo u a r e a y o u n g m a n . H o w c a n a y o u n g m a n s i t a n d y o u
a r e c h a ir i n g t h is h u g e o r g a n is a ti o n ? A n d s o , I m e a n . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: So, then he changed.
M R K O N A : Th e n h e c h a n g e d , y e s a n d . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b e c o m e ju s t n e g a ti v e ?
H o w w o u ld y o u d e s c r i b e th e m o o d ?

Page 100 of 204

D i d h e b e c o m e h o s t il e ?

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
MR KONA:

C h a ir, h is d e m e a n o u r th e n s t o p p e d fr o m b e in g fr i e n d ly to

b e m o r e o f a b u s in e s s l ik e to s a y, o k a y w h a t h a s b e e n d o n e w i t h t h is ?
Is t h is c o m m o n b y t h e w a y . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, more serious.
M R K O N A : J a m o r e s e r i o u s . H a s t h i s b e e n d o n e ? A n d th e n I to l d h i m ,
I s a i d , n o t h is i s d o n e . W e a r e fi n i s h e d . I t is a w a r d e d . T h is t h in g h a s
b e e n a w a r d e d . N o w . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u m a y c o n ti n u e .
MR
10

KONA:

Th a t

is

what-

then

i m m e d i a t e ly

after

that

C h a ir,

i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r t h a t , t h e m e e ti n g c e a s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l m e h o w i t c e a s e d . D i d h e s a y, o k a y t h e m e e ti n g
is e n d e d y o u c a n le a v e . O r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t o r th e r e w a s j u s t n o t h in g
f u r th e r t o d is c u s s a n d t h e n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
M R K O N A : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s t a r te d s a y in g , l e t m e g o .
M R K O N A : C h a ir, s o m e b o d y w a s p h o n e d a n d w a s a s k e d t o c o m e t h e r e
i m m e d i a t e ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : S o , I d id n o t p u t t h is p e r s o n ’s n a m e o n r e c o r d s o I d o n o t

20

k n o w w h e t h e r i t i s a d e q u a te f o r m e to m e n ti o n t h e n a m e o f t h i s p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k w e d o n e e d to k n o w w h o . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
M R K O N A : O k a y, t h e y p h o n e d t h e D G C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e D G o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f .. . ( in t e r v e n e s )

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R K O N A : O f P u b lic E n t e r p r i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f P u b li c E n t e r p r is e , ja .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: He was phoned?
MR KONA: He was phoned, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And who was he at the time or she?
M R K O N A : I t w a s Ts h e d i s o M a t o n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R K O N A : J a , th e y p h o n e d h i m a n d s a id , h e y, w h a t i s g o i n g o n . C a n
10

y o u q u i c k ly c o m e a n d e x p l a i n t o u s w h a t is g o in g o n ?
CHAIRPERSON: Mm.
MR KONA:

J a b u t C h a ir t h e n f o r m e th e m e e t in g w a s o v e r.

Th e n I

s a i d , o k a y le t m e - I a m g o in g . T h e n a s I w a s d r iv i n g h o m e . S o , I g o t
m y c e l l p h o n e b a c k . I w a lk e d o u t , th e y n e v e r w a lk e d m e o u t. I w a lk e d
o u t . I le f t t h e m t h e r e a n d I g o t m y c e ll p h o n e b a c k a n d a s I w a s d r i v i n g
o u t t h e n I g e t a c a l l fr o m t h e D G a n d h e i s lik e , o h c h i e f , w h y d i d y o u
g iv e t h is g u y s L u f t h a n s a , th e c o n tr a c t? B u t Ts h e d i s o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, j u s t r e p e a t t h a t. W h y d i d y o u ?
M R K O N A : W h y d id I g iv e L u f t h a n s a th e c o n tr a c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e D G s a y i n g t h a t?
M R K O N A : Th a t i s t h e D G y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: On the phone?
MR KONA:

O n t h e p h o n e , j a . A n d I a m s a y in g , b u t o k a y Ts h e d is o , I

a m n o t th e o n e w h o g i v e s a c o n tr a c t .
c o n tr a c t.

I t is s u p p ly c h a i n w h o g i v e s a

T h e n h e w a s li k e , o k a y, I w il l c o m e b a c k to y o u .

Page 102 of 204

And he

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
d is a p p e a r s C h a ir, h e d o e s n o t s a y a n y t h i n g . A c o u p l e o f d a y s p a s s a n d
t h e n t h e f o l lo w in g w e e k I g e t a l e t t e r fr o m P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s s a y i n g
t h a t t h e y w a n t t o i n v e s t ig a t e th e a w a r d o f m y c o n tr a c t t o L u f t h a n s a .
T h e n I s a y, o k a y c o m e , th is is w h a t w e h a v e d o n e . W e a r e p r e p a r in g
f o r y o u . W e w i ll p r e p a r e t h e p a c k . I to l d t h e g u y s a t s u p p l y c h a in .
I s a i d , g u y s th e D e p a r t m e n t w a n ts t o s e e w h a t p r o c e s s e s w e w e n t
t h r o u g h i n a w a r d in g t h i s c o n tr a c t to L u f t h a n s a C o n s u l ti n g .

I do not

t h i n k i t is a n y th i n g , j u s t p r e p a r e t h e p a p e r w o r k . T h e y p r e p a r e d a p a c k
f o r t h e P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s a n d t h e y p r e p a r e d t h e p e o p l e i n th e B id d e r
10

J u d ic a t io n C o m m i t t e e b e c a u s e i t is a s m a ll- i t is n o t a b i g c o m m i t te e .
I t is a s m a l l c o m m i t t e e w i th t h e m e m b e r w h e r e a n d t h e m i n u te s t h e y
p r e p a r e d fo r th e t e a m .

T h e t e a m c a m e C h a ir, i n v e s ti g a te d , f o u n d

n o t h i n g t h e y c o u ld n o t f a u l t .

B u t t h e y w o u l d n o t a ll o w m e t o s t a r t t o

a p p o i n t L u f th a n s a C o n s u l t in g to s t a r t th e w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is th e y n o w ?
M R K O N A : Th e D e p a r t m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: What were they saying?
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y w e r e s a y i n g , j a n o , w e w i ll c o m e b a c k t o y o u .

W e s t il l l o o k i n g a t t h i n g s .
20

A n d C h a ir, it b e c a m e a n a b s o l u te ly - t h e

b e h a v io u r o f p e o p le t h e n s u d d e n ly c h a n g e d fr o m b o t h th e D e p a r t m e n t
a n d m y f e l lo w b o a r d m e m b e r s i n t e r m s o f t h e ir i n t e r a c ti o n s w i th m e .
B e c a u s e th e n I b e c a m e i t w a s a s i f n o w p e o p l e - C h a ir, I f e lt li k e a n
a n i m a l t h a t w a s in t h e z o o b e i n g h u n t e d a n d b u t p e o p l e a r e s h o o ti n g
b u t t h e y d o n o t k n o w w h e r e t o g e t y o u k in d o f t h i n g . A n d it w a s l ik e , l e t
u s j u s t fi n d s o m e th i n g t o g e t r i d o f h i m .

Then roundabout the end of

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N o v e m b e r I g e t a c a ll fr o m t h e A d v o c a t e L i n d i N k o s i T h o m a s , s h e w a s
a ls o a b o a r d m e m b e r w i t h u s . A n d s h e s a y s t o m e , I th i n k l e t u s ju s t
s e t tl e t h i s m a t t e r, w e a r e n o t g o i n g f o r w a r d b e c a u s e t h e e m o t i o n s n o w
a r e t o o h ig h h e r e w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n . S o , I s a y . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e r e fe r e n c e t o t h is m a t t e r is a r e fe r e n c e to

w h a t m a t te r ?
M R K O N A : I t is a r e f e r e n c e t o w h a t is g o i n g o n n o w i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n
b e c a u s e I a m c l e a r ly n o t w a n te d b y th e D e p a r t m e n t n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M R K O N A : A n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t h a s b e e n h a v i n g c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i th m y
c o l l e a g u e s i n t h e b o a r d t o tr y a n d m a k e m y w o r k i n g l i fe a s d i ffic u lt a s
p o s s i b le i n t e r m s o f m e w o r k i n g .

S o , b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly f o r t h e m t h e y

c o u l d n o t fi n d a n y th i n g t h a t t h e y c o u ld c o m e a n d s a y t h is is w h a t t h i s
p e r s o n h a s d o n e n o w. L e t u s g e t r i d o f h i m . B e c a u s e a l l I w a s d o i n g , I
w a s s i m p ly w o r k i n g a c c o r d in g to t h e b o o k a n d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e
g u i d e li n e s o f t h e a i r l in e . Th a t i s w h a t I d i d .
S o , I t o l d L in d i, I s a i d , lo o k i t is c l e a r to m e t h a t t h e
D e p a r t m e n t d o e s n o t w a n t m e a n d o b v i o u s l y th e r e h a s b e e n a f a ll in g
o u t . B u t I n o w w a s a b le t o tr a c e b a c k t h e f a l l o u t t o t h is c o n tr a c t t h a t ,
20

h e y, i t w a s t h is c o n t r a c t . T h e n t h e M in is t e r c a m e a n d s a i d t o t h e b o a r d
m e m b e r s , h e a s k e d u s f o r a m e e t in g i n C a p e To w n a n d h e s a i d t o u s ,
le t t h e b o a r d b e c a u s e w e a r e d e l a y in g t o i m p l e m e n t t h e t u r n a r o u n d
s tr a t e g y p la n .

L e t t h e b o a r d ju s t d o i ts o w n tu r n a r o u n d p la n .

Now

C h a ir, I c o u l d n o t b e p a r t o f th a t b e c a u s e it is “ h o s p o s h ” t h in g t h a t y o u
a r e s u b m i tt i n g to s a y t h a t y o u a r e p u tt i n g t o g e t h e r a t u r n a r o u n d p l a n .

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B e c a u s e th e r e is a l o t b u t th e y m a n a g e d to p u t s o m e t h in g th e r e th e
o th e r b o a r d m e m b e r s t o s a y, w e a r e s u b m it t in g th is . A n d I a m s a i d to
t h e m , I c a n n o t b e p a r t o f th is b e c a u s e i t is - w e a r e j u s t s u b m i t ti n g
d o c u m e n ts f o r t h e s a k e o f s u b m i t ti n g d o c u m e n t s a n d I a m n o t g o i n g to
b e p a r ty to it .
B u t n e e d l e s s to s a y, C h a ir, i n t h e i n t e r e s t o f t i m e , t h e s e t t le m e n t d i d
n o t h a p p e n . A d o c u m e n t w a s c o o k e d b y th e b o a r d o n m y b e h a v i o u r t h a t
t h e b o a r d w a s n o w g e t ti n g i n v o l v e d i n m y o p p r e s s i o n a l d u ti e s a n d m e
tr y i n g to a p p o i n t t e m p o r a r y p e o p l e t o c o m e a n d h e l p m e t o f ix th e
10

a ir li n e . T h e n th e b o a r d w a s f o r g i n g - o n e o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s f o r g e d
le g a l o p i n io n s fo r m e t o s a y t h a t I h a v e g o t a n i n t e r e s t, th is is w h a t is
g o i n g o n . A n d I r a i s e d a ll th o s e i s s u e s t o t h e b o a r d to c o m e a n d s a y
b u t y o u d o n o t h a v e to f o r g e le g a l o p i n i o n s b e c a u s e I a m n o t b e n e fi t i n g
fr o m th is .

I a m n o t g e t ti n g a n y m o n e y. A ll I w a n t to d o i s t o f ix t h i s

b u s i n e s s t h a t i s s tr u g g l i n g . N o b o d y s e e m e d t o p a y a tt e n ti o n C h a ir a n d
t o c u t a l o n g s t o r y s h o r t , I a s k e d - I p h o n e d M a lu s i b e g i n n i n g 2 0 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M in is t e r G i g a b a .
M R K O N A : Ye s , a n d s a y, M in is t e r, I d o n o t th i n k th is is h e a l t h y f o r y o u
a n d it is n o t h e a l th y f o r m e . I c a n s e e t h a t I a m n o t w a n t e d . L e t u s tr y
20

a n d r e s o lv e t h is i s s u e o f o u r s a s q u ic k l y a s p o s s i b l e .
s a y s , o k a y, I a m s til l i n K Z N .

T h e M i n is t e r

O n c e I g e t to J o h a n n e s b u r g , I w il l c a ll

y o u a n d t h e c u r r e n t Ac t in g C h a ir, t h a t is D u d u M e n y e , t o c o m e t o m y
h o u s e a n d th e n w e c a n s i t a n d r e s o l v e t h i s i s s u e . C h a ir, I w a i te d . T h a t
m e e ti n g n e v e r h a p p e n e d u n ti l I w a s b a s ic a l ly s u s p e n d e d o n t h e 11 t h o f
F e b r u a r y f o r s p u r i o u s r e a s o n s s a y i n g t h a t I a p p o in t e d p e o p le w i t h o u t

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g o i n g th r o u g h a p r o c e s s . T h e s e p e o p l e a r e a ll b e i n g p a i d 1 . 3 m il li o n ,
1 .4 m i ll i o n a n d th e y w e r e ju s t t h e r e f o r 1 2 m o n t h s t o a s s is t m e t o m o v e
o v e r a t t h e a i r li n e .
A n d b u t w e s h o w e d a l l t h o s e t h i n g s to t h e M i n is te r w h e n h e w a s b u s y
fir i n g m e f r o m b e in g c h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e M i n is t e r w o u l d h a v e n o n e o f
it .

S o , f o r m e i t w a s c l e a r t h a t b e c a u s e M c K i n s e y d i d n o t g e t th e

c o n s u l t in g a s s i g n m e n t a n d M c K i n s e y w a s m e a n t t o h a v e g o t t e n t h e
c o n s u l t in g a s s ig n m e n t a n d s o th a t i s w h e r e th e f a l l o u t w e n t . I n e v e r
w e n t b a c k t o t h e G u p t a ’s . I n e v e r h a d a n y t h i n g to d o w i th t h e G u p t a ’s
10

p o s t t h a t d i s c u s s i o n C h a ir. J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , b e fo r e M s H o f m e y r a s k y o u t h e n e x t q u e s t i o n .

S o , y o u s a i d - d id y o u s a y th a t d u r in g t h e m e e ti n g , M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a ,
M r Ts h e p i s o M a g a s h u l e , M r S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u . I t i s S iy a b o n g a n ê ?
M R K O N A : S i y a b o n g a , t h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S i y a M a h a l a n g u w h o w e r e i n t h a t m e e ti n g , n e v e r s a i d
a n y th in g r e a ll y. I t w a s M r To n y G u p ta a n d y o u r s e l f w h o w e r e t a l k i n g .
M R K O N A : C h a ir, fo r m e i t w a s a v e r y s tr a n g e m e e ti n g . J a , D u d u z a n e
n e v e r u tt e r e d a s i n g le w o r d i n t h e m e e ti n g . Ts h e p is o n e v e r u t te r e d a
w o r d . J a , S iy a w a s j u s t c o n f ir m in g w h a t I w o u ld a n s w e r a n d ju s t a d d a
20

f e w w o r d s a n d th e r e . B u t r e a ll y t h e m a in p e o p l e t h a t w e r e t a l k i n g w a s
m y s e l f a n d To n y, ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s i n t e r e s t in g y o u h a v e n o th i n g t o s a y t o c o m m e n t
o n a n d I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r w o u l d b e a w a r e o f s o m e o f th e s e t h i n g s . I n
t e r m s o f e v i d e n c e t h a t I h a v e h e a r d o v e r ti m e M r J o n a s s a id in t h e
m e e ti n g t h a t h e h a d a t th e G u p t a r e s id e n c e w h e n Mr D u d u z a n e Z u m a

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w a s t h e r e , M r D u d u z a n e – h e s a i d t h a t m e e ti n g in v o lv e d o n e o f t h e
G u p t a b r o t h e r s t a lk i n g t o h i m a n d o ff e r i n g h i m m o n e y.

H e s a id M r

D u d u z a n e Z u m a w a s th e r e a n d t h e r e w a s M r H l o n g w a n e a s w e ll a n d h i s
v e r s i o n i s t h e y n e v e r s a i d a t h i n g . D u d u z a n e Zu m a a n d Mr H l o n g w a n e
t h e y n e v e r s a id a t h i n g . T h e y h a v e a d i ffe r e n t v e r s i o n b u t t h e i r v e r s i o n
d o e s n o t i n v o l v e a G u p t a b r o th e r b e i n g p a r t o f th e m e e ti n g .

Mr

D u k w a n a s a id a ls o h e w a s ta k e n b y M r A c e M a g a s h u le to t h e G u p t a
r e s id e n c e o n e t i m e a n d h e a t te n d e d a m e e ti n g w h i c h M r D u d u z a n e
Z u m a a l s o a t t e n d e d w h e r e Mr To n y G u p ta o ffe r e d h i m a b r i e fc a s e f u ll o f
10

c a s h i f h e a g r e e d t o a p p o i n t a c e r t a in e n t i ty f o r s o m e w o r k f o r h is
d e p a r t m e n t in t h e Pr o v i n c i a l – Fr e e S t a te Pr o v in c i a l g o v e r n m e n t . Yo u
a r e – h e s a i d t o o M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a n e v e r s a i d a n y t h in g in t h a t
m e e ti n g .

Yo u a r e s a y i n g y o u a ls o h a d a m e e t in g a t t h e G u p t a

r e s id e n c e w h e r e Mr To n y G u p t a w a s t h e r e a n d M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a w a s
t h e r e a n d th r o u g h o u t M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a n e v e r s a i d a n y t h i n g .

It was

ju s t M r To n y G u p t a ta lk in g a n d y o u w e r e t a lk i n g t o h i m .
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I d o h a v e s o m e f o l lo w u p q u e s t io n s b u t I
20

n o t e t h a t w e a r e a t o n e o ’ c l o c k . I h a d i n d i c a t e d t o M r K o n a e a r l i e r th a t
I w a s o b v i o u s l y t o o p ti m is t ic th a t w e m i g h t c o m p le t e h is e v i d e n c e
b e f o r e th e l u n c h b r e a k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o k n o w M r K o n a t h a t th e r e m i g h t b e a n e e d
f o r y o u to g e t a d d i t io n a l m e d ic a ti o n . W i ll y o u b e a lr i g h t t o r e t u r n a t t w o

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o ’c l o c k a ft e r o u r b r e a k ?
CHAIRPERSON:

O r w o u ld y o u – w o u l d i t h e lp i n a n y w a y i n te r ms o f

m e d i c a t io n i f w e tr i e d to fi n i s h fir s t a n d t a k e lu n c h l a te r f o r y o u r
purposes.
MR KONA:

I w il l p r e fe r w e f in is h C h a ir.

Because once I take

m e d i c a t io n I f a ll a s l e e p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H o w m u c h t i m e d o y o u t h in k ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir I a m h o p i n g a b o u t h a l f a n h o u r b u t t h e

c h a l le n g e is th a t w e h a v e n o t g o t t o th e T N A a s p e c ts y e t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e – s o w e a r e e ff e c ti v e ly h a l f w a y t h r o u g h
t h e e v id e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a v in g t a k e n a n h o u r t o th is p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . B u t I a m g r a t e f u l fo r o n e t h i n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t M r K o n a h a s g iv e n m o r e i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e

m e e ti n g a t t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e . In h is s t a te m e n t h e r e h e d id n o t g iv e
m u c h a n d I m a d e a n o te s o I a m h a p p y t h a t h e h a s b e e n a b l e to g i v e
20

m o r e i n fo r m a ti o n .

So – so you would need about subject to even

q u e s t io n s fr o m t h e C h a ir a n d h o w m u c h t h a t t a k e s a b o u t w h a t – a b o u t
a n h o u r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d t h i n k n o t m o r e t h a n t h a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t m o r e t h a n th a t .

B u t y o u – y o u r s it u a ti o n is

d i ff ic u l t fr o m w h a t I h e a r. I t w o u ld b e b e tt e r th a t w e fi n i s h t h e n y o u g o .

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B u t i f i t ta k e s t h a t lo n g w o u l d y o u s ti l l b e f in e i n t e r m s o f y o u r
m e d i c a t io n ?
M R K O N A : C h a ir – C h a ir t h e o n l y c h a ll e n g e m y d r i v e r g o e s t o s c h o o l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t s o .
M R K O N A : J a , ja . M y s o n i s t h e o n e w h o c h a u ff e u r e d m e h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Oh.
M R K O N A : A n d h e h a s t o a tt e n d a f te r t w o . S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r t w o o ’c l o c k ?
M R K O N A : Ye s , y e s h e h a s g o t le c t u r e s t o a t t e n d to .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l w e c o u l d c e r t a i n l y a s s i s t w i t h …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m h a p p y t o c o n t in u e .

Th e o n l y p r o b le m – i f w e

w e r e t o c o n t in u e b e f o r e t a k i n g lu n c h h o w m u c h ti m e – b y w h e n w o u ld
you need to get out of here?
M R K O N A : I t i s u p to – i t i s u p to h e r C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m h a p p y to s i t a n d c o n t in u e a n d t a k e l u n c h a f t e r

w e h a v e f i n is h e d w it h y o u .
MR KONA: Okay if you indulge.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t f i n e ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . L e t u s d o t h a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n t in u e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e a r e i n d e b t e d . I w o u ld j u s t lik e t o p r o b e a

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f e w a s p e c ts Mr K o n a b e c a u s e e v e n b e fo r e y o u g o t to t h e c a ll th a t y o u
r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e t h e n D G Mr M a t o n a y o u i n d ic a te d th a t y o u h a d n o t
in c l u d e d in t h a t a ffi d a v i t . W h y d i d y o u n o t i n c l u d e th a t in y o u r a ffi d a v i t
o r i g in a l ly ?
MR KONA:

I – y o u s e e A d v o c a t e t h e r e i s a lo t o f – th e r e i s a l o t o f

t h i n g s th a t h a v e b e e n h a p p e n in g a t th e m o m e n t . I a m b u s y p a y in g m y
o w n l e g a l c o s ts a t th e m o m e n t f o r – f o r th is – f o r a ll th e s e s t a t e
c a p tu r e r e la t e d e v e n ts . S o i f I a m b e in g a d v is e d b y t h e l a w y e r s to s a y
t h a t th is is w h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o p u t i n a n d w e a r e m a n a g i n g e x p e n s e s I
10

c a n o n l y p u t s o m u c h w i th t h e e x p e n s e s t h a t – t h a t w e a r e m a n a g i n g .
I t i s n o t t h a t c l e a r t h e r e i s s o m e th i n g u n t o w a r d t h a t is b e i n g – t h a t is
being hidden per se.
MR KONA: Hm.
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u w e r e o ff e r e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o m e e t w i th

t h e c o m m i s s i o n s a n d it s i n v e s t ig a t o r s a n d le g a l t e a m o n th e 2 O c t o b e r
2 0 1 9 w h ic h y o u d e c l in e d . D o y o u r e c a l l th a t?
MR KONA: No I do not.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t r e c a l l d e c l i n i n g t h a t .
20

M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n v i ta t io n .
MR KONA: No I do not.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l g e t t h e n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n t .
M R K O N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e r e i s q u i t e a b i t o f f u r th e r d e t a il th a t y o u

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h a v e p r o v i d e d to d a y a b o u t th is m e e ti n g a n d a s t h e C h a ir i n d ic a te d
p r e v i o u s ly t h e p r o c e s s e s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n a r e o n l y a i d e d b y t h a t a n d
t h e d e ta il . T h e c h a ll e n g e C h a ir j u s t s o t h a t w e s ta t e it p u b l ic l y i s t h a t
t h is w a s n o t i n th e o r i g i n a l a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o i s s u e s w it h i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i ll n o w n e e d t o b e f o ll o w e d u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d c e r t a i n l y t h e a s p e c t o f y o u r s u s p e n s io n

a n d t h e d e ta il s a r o u n d it w e s i m il a r l y w o u l d h a v e li k e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty
t o p r o b e w i t h y o u b u t h a v e n o t h a d a n o p p o r tu n it y t o d o t h a t .
MR KONA:

Yo u s e e A d v o c a t e s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t in te r ms o f m y

p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n a t t h e m o m e n t h a v e b e e n p u b lic
knowledge.
M i n is t e r.

They are not hidden because I did go to court with the
I s u b m it t e d a n a ffi d a v i t s o I h a v e – I h a v e n o t h i d d e n

a n y th in g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
M R K O N A : I n t e r m s o f w h a t is g o i n g o n . T h e p a p e r s a r e th e r e i n c o u r t
20

a t t h e m o m e n t a n d o n c e I s a v e e n o u g h m o n e y t o c o n t in u e s lo g g i n g i t
o u t t h e n w e w i ll c o n ti n u e t o s l o g i t o u t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r s to o d . Is t h a t c a s e s t il l p e n d i n g ?
MR KONA:

O n c e I g e t e n o u g h m o n e y th e n I w il l c o n t in u e w i th i t

b e c a u s e I p e r s o n a ll y f e e l t h a t m y n a m e w a s d r a g g e d th r o u g h t h e m u d
f o r – f o r r u b b is h y o u k n o w. I w a s – i t is – e v e r y b o d y k n e w w h a t w a s

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h a p p e n in g a n d t h e y p r e t e n d e d to – t o b e h o li e r t h a n t h o u w h e n t h e y
w e r e d o in g w h a t t h e y w e r e d o in g a n d h e n c e t h a t i s w h y I w a s e v e n
p r e p a r e d a t th e t i m e t o c o m e a n d s a y, l e t m e j u s t p a c k m y b a g s a n d g o .
I t i s – I c a n n o t w o r k u n d e r t h e s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s . N e i t h e r d o I w a n t t o
c o n ti n u e i n a n e n v i r o n m e n t li k e t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d e t a ils t h a t y o u g a v e w i t h r e g a r d t o th e m e e ti n g .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e y c o n t a in e d i n s o m e o r o t h e r a ff i d a v i t th a t is …
M R K O N A : Th e r e i s – t h e r e i s c o u r t p a p e r s t h a t I h a v e b e e n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : N o r t h P r e to r i a – G a u t e n g h i g h c o u r t .
CHAIRPERSON: And they include…
M R K O N A : Th e y a r e th e r e i n th e n e w s p a p e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : Th e j o u r n a li s ts h a v e th is m e e ti n g – h a v e t h is in f o r m a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o , n o , n o I a m m o r e i n t e r e s te d in w h a t m a y b e in
a ffi d a v i ts in c o u r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e d e t a ils t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n .

20

M R K O N A : I w i ll t h i n k – I w o u ld t h i n k s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e r e . O k a y a lr i g h t.
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KONA:

B u t m y a tt o r n e y s a r e fu ll y b r ie f e d w i t h w h a t – w i t h w h a t

happened.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e s p e c if ic S a x o n w o l d m e e t in g M r K o n a .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I s t h a t tr a v e r s e d i n p r e v i o u s a ffi d a v it s b e f o r e

c o u r t?
M R K O N A : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Yo u c a n d r a w t h a t to o u r a t te n ti o n
10

w e w o u l d b e g r a t e fu l .
M R K O N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w o u l d li k e t o t h e n m o v e to p a g e 9 b e c a u s e

y o u t a l k a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r t h e m e e ti n g a t p a g e 9 , p a r a g r a p h
43.

L e t u s s ta r t s o r r y a t p a g e 4 2 . Yo u t a lk a b o u t h a v i n g c o n fi d e d i n

someone about the meeting. Can you tell us about that?
MR KONA:

Ye s .

O b v i o u s ly b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n th r o u g h t h is

tr a u m a t is in g m e e ti n g th a t m a d e m e e x t r e m e ly u n c o m f o r t a b l e .

I went

a n d to l d m y t h e n a c ti n g C h a ir D u d u M y e n i .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay I am sorry just to make sure I understand. Now
20

a t t h e t i m e y o u w e n t t o t h e m e e t i n g a t t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d a n d a c ti n g G r o u p
CEO?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?

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M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A t th e ti m e o f c o n fi d in g a s r e fl e c t e d in

p a r a g r a p h 4 2 w e r e y o u s t il l h o l d in g th o s e p o s i ti o n s ?
MR KONA:

C h a ir r e m e m b e r t h a t e v e n th o u g h I w a s a p p o i n t e d

C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O N A : Ye s I w a s n o w – t h e r e w a s n o w a n a c ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u o n s u s p e n s io n a lr e a d y ?
M R K O N A : N o , n o , n o t y e t.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KONA:

B u t a C h a ir – a n a c ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n h a d b e e n a p p o in t e d

b e c a u s e n o w I – e v e n t h o u g h my a p p o in t m e n t w a s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O N A : B u t b e c a u s e n o w I w a s a c t in g C E O .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R K O N A : Th e M i n is t e r a p p o i n te d a n a c t i n g C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh so when you were Group CEO.

M R K O N A : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e r e n o t e x p e c te d to p e r f o r m t h e d u t i e s o f

C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d .
M R K O N A : Th e C h a ir – t h e C h a ir p e r s o n – y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l t h o u g h y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t h a d n o t b e e n t e r m in a t e d ?
M R K O N A : H a d n o t b e e n – w a s n o t t e r m i n a te d y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e r e w a s s o m e b o d y a c ti n g ?
M R K O N A : A c ti n g y e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : P e r f o r m in g th o s e d u t ie s .
M R K O N A : I n a p o s it i o n – y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And so I understand your evidence to be you

s p o k e t o h e r a b o u t th e m e e ti n g , is th a t r i g h t?
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t j a .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d i d y o u s a y t o h e r ?
MR KONA:

I t o l d h e r a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g a n d th e n s h e w a s m o r e

in t e r e s te d o n – d i d y o u d r i n k a n y th in g n o t o n t h e e v e n t .

B u t d id y o u

d r i n k a n y th in g a n d o r d i d y o u e a t a n y th i n g ? I w a s – a n d m y v i e w w a s
o h m y s i s t e r – a n d i t w a s lik e – t h e s e p e o p le w e r e a [ A fr i c a n l a n g u a g e ].
S o r r y t h e s e p e o p l e w il l b e w i tc h y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t r a n s – g iv e a tr a n s l a ti o n in E n g lis h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m v e r y i n d e b te d . T h a n k y o u Mr K o n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a g iv e a tr a n s l a ti o n o f t h a t M r K o n a .
M R K O N A : Ye s , y e s . T h a t i s w h a t s h e w a s m o r e i n te r e s t e d o n a n d –
20

so…
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d s h e m a k e r e m a r k s s u g g e s t in g t h a t y o u c o u l d h a v e
b e e n b e w i tc h e d i f y o u a te o r d r a n k s o m e t h i n g ?
M R K O N A : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R K O N A : T h a t i s – t h a t is – s h e w a s n o t i n t e r e s t e d o n t h e e v e n t s o f

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t h e m e e ti n g a n d w h a t – I k n o w – s h e w a s l ik e I k n o w [ A f r i c a n
la n g u a g e ] . S o C h a ir t h e n I – i t b e c a m e a l o n e ly p l a c e t o b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o y o u a r e s a y i n g d o n o t g o a r o u n d d r i n k in g a n d
e a t in g .
M R K O N A : A n d e a t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s s h e m a k i n g s o m e a c c u s a ti o n s a g a in s t t h e m
or…?
M R K O N A : S h e ju s t s a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i t w a s j u s t l ig h t e d .
10

M R K O N A : S h e w a s j u s t l ig h t a b o u t t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KONA:

J a a n d th a t w a s t h e e n d o f – t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f

c o n v e r s a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R K O N A : T h e n in m y a s s u m p t io n I a s s u m e d th e n th a t s h e p ic k e d u p
t h e p h o n e a n d t h e n s t a r t e d m a k i n g p h o n e c a l ls t o s a y to – to o b v i o u s l y
p a s s i n g th e m e s s a g e t o s a y, w h y d id y o u g u y s t a k e t h is g u y, m y s e l f, t o
g o a n d m e e t th e s e p e o p l e ?

A n d t h a t is w h y t h e n th e M i n is te r ’s

a d v is o r s s ta r t e d s e n d in g m e s s a g e s th a t w e [i n d is t in c t ] k i n d o f t h in g .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y s o l e t u s m o v e to t h e m e s s a g e t h a t y o u

r e c e i v e d fr o m M r M a h l a n g u .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e fir s t d e a l w i t h w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d th e n
a n y a s s u m p ti o n s y o u m a k e a r o u n d t h e e v e n ts .

O k a y.

Because you

h a v e j u s t i n d i c a t e d y o u a s s u m e d t h a t M s M y e n i h a d m a d e c a l ls . Yo u d o

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
n o t h a v e a n y fir s t- h a n d k n o w l e d g e o f t h a t ?
MR KONA: I do not have it ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t u s j u s t ta lk a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d ? Yo u
c o n fi d e d in M s M y e n i . Yo u h a d t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th h e r a n d t h e n a t
p a r a g r a p h 4 3 y o u t a lk a b o u t r e c e iv i n g a s ms c o m m u n ic a t i o n fr o m Mr
M a h l a n g u . W h a t w a s t h a t?
MR KONA:

W e l l h e w a s s a y i n g t o m e – h e s a i d to m e [ A f r ic a n

la n g u a g e ] I a m c o m p r o m is e d , I a m c o m p r o m is in g th e m i s s i o n . S o – s o
t h e m is s i o n w a s f o r h i m t o t a k e m e t o – t o S a x o n w o ld a n d n o w t h e
10

o th e r p e o p l e w e r e n o t s u p p o s e d to h a v e k n o w n th a t I w e n t t o t h e
S a x o n w o ld .

A n d h e w a s n o t h a p p y t h a t I t o l d th e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I

w a s t a k e n to S a x o n w o l d b e c a u s e f o r t h e i r o w n t h i n g s t h a t th e y w e r e
d o i n g – w i th th e ir o w n p o w e r d y n a m i c s t h e y w e r e a ll r u n n i n g S a x o n w o ld
a n d th e Pr e s id e n c y, M i n is t e r s a n d a l l t h o s e g a m e s .

I did not know

t h o s e g a m e s w h a t w a s g o in g o n b e h i n d – b e h in d t h e r e .

But I think

w h e n h e to o k m e th e r e h is a s s u m p ti o n w a s th a t s h e s h o u l d n o t k n o w
t h a t I h a v e b e e n i n tr o d u c e d t o th e s e – t o t h e s e p e o p le . I s h o u l d c r e a te
m y o w n I t h i n k p o w e r b l o c k i f I m a y s a y to b e a b l e t o c a r r y o u t t h e j o b .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

L e t u s g o t o th e s m s b e c a u s e w e r e q u e s t e d

that you provide us with actual screen shots of it.
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u w il l fi n d i t a t p a g e 1 6 o f Ex h ib i t D D 1 7

w h ic h is in fr o n t o f y o u . M r K o n a I a m g o i n g t o r e t u r n t o t h e s e s m s ’s i n
a m o m e n t b e c a u s e p a r t o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n r e l a te s to a s p e c ts o f T N A .
B u t j u s t fo r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s c a n y o u t e ll u s w h a t p a g e s 1 6 , 1 7 a n d 1 8

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c o n ta in ?
M R K O N A : S M S ’s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e t w e e n w h o ?
M R K O N A : B e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d th e M i n is t e r ’s a d v i s o r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s Mr M a h l a n g u is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n o n p a g e 1 6 y o u w ill s e e a d a t e th e r e
2 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 6 I t h in k i t i s a t 1 4 mi n u t e s p a s t 6 in t h e m o r n i n g , is
that correct?
10

M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J u s t r e a d th a t m e s s a g e t h a t c o m e s f r o m M r

Mahlangu into the record?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u m e n ti o n t h a t a d a te is r e f l e c te d o n p a g e 1 6 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is s o r t o f m i d d le o f t h e d a r k b l a c k t e x t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see 2 ne.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is n o t p a r t ic u l a r ly c l e a r w e w i ll s e e i f w e c a n
enhance it.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o th a t is f in e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t ju s t b e n e a t h t h a t I t h i n k i t is t h e s m s y o u

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h a v e b e e n r e fe r r i n g t o i n y o u r e v i d e n c e , i s th a t r i g h t?
M R K O N A : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d y o u r e a d t h e fu ll s m s in t o t h e r e c o r d ?
MR KONA:
“ [ A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e ] w h y d i d y o u l e t h e r k n o w t h a t y o u k n e w w h e r e s h e
w a s g o i n g y o u w i ll c o m p r o m i s e t h e m i s s i o n . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y c a n w e j u s t …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y. [ A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e ] w h y d i d y o u l e t h e r

know that you knew where she was going.
10

Yo u w il l c o m p r o m is e t h e

m is s i o n .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e s m s fr o m …
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a h la n g u t o y o u .
M R K O N A : Ye s
CHAIRPERSON: On the 27 November 2012?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e d a t e f o r t h a t s m s ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A n d y o u s a id [ A fr i c a n l a n g u a g e ] i s w h y y o u

c o m p r o m is i n g m e o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e th is is a ft e r
y o u h a v e c o n fi d e d in M s M y e n i a b o u t t h e m e e t i n g a t t h e S a x o n w o ld

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r e s id e n c e .
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e ju s t b r e a k d o w n t h e m e s s a g e a li t tl e b it
f u r th e r ? Mr M a h l a n g u r e c o r d s i n t h e s e c o n d s e n te n c e ,
“ w h y d i d y o u le t h e r k n o w t h a t y o u k n e w w h e r e s h e w a s g o i n g . ”
What does that mean Mr Kona?
MR KONA:
10

Yo u s e e – y o u s e e A d v o c a t e th e r e w e r e – w h a t w e w e r e

d e a li n g w i t h a n d t h a t is w h y I s a i d e a r l i e r o n y o u a r e d e a l i n g i n a n
e n v ir o n m e n t th a t y o u w e r e t o l d t h a t y o u a r e b e i n g ta k e n t o p o w e r
b r o k e r s . A n d i f y o u a r e g o i n g – b e in g t a k e n t o p o w e r b r o k e r s t h e s e a r e
the same power brokers that she was using to move her own – her own
a g e n d a o f w h a t s h e – o f w h a t s h e w a n te d – o f w h a t s h e w a n t e d to d o .
H o w e v e r s h e d i d n o t w a n t t h o s e – a n y b o d y e ls e t o b e t a k e n to t h o s e
s a m e p o w e r – t o t h o s e p o w e r – p o w e r b r o k e r s fo r h e r o w n a g e n d a
w i t h i n w h a t e v e r s h e w a s d o i n g o r w h a t e v e r s h e w a n t e d to d o .

She

w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e s e p e o p le a r e – t h e y a r e a l l a li g n e d i n
t e r m s o f w h a t th e y w a n t t o d o .
20

So when I had – when I had a

c o n v e r s a ti o n I m a d e i t c l e a r to h e r t h a t I k n o w w h o th e s e p o w e r b r o k e r s
a r e a n d I h a v e b e e n t a k e n t o a h o u s e a n d I a m e x tr e m e l y u n c o m f o r t a b l e
w i t h t h e m e e t in g .

A n d th is i s – th is i s w h a t h a p p e n e d .

And that is

w h e n s h e s ta r t e d c a l li n g a r o u n d a n d l a t e r o n w h e n t h e M i n i s te r ’s
a d v is o r f o u n d o u t a b o u t t h i s t h a t is w h e n h e s e n t th e m e s s a g e . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I just want to get clear about how much you

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h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f a n d h o w m u c h y o u a r e a s s u m i n g fr o m
p u t t in g th i n g s t o g e t h e r o v e r t i m e e t c e t e r a . D id M s M y e n i e v e r h a v e a
c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h y o u in w h ic h s h e s p o k e a b o u t t h is p o w e r b r o k in g t h a t
you describe?
M R K O N A : A b s o l u t e ly. W h e n w e h a d t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n . T h a t is w h e n I
s p o k e t o h e r. S h e w a s t h e a c ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I h a d t o t a l k t o h e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t d i d s h e s p e c if ic a l ly t a l k a b o u t t h e p o w e r

b r o k i n g t h a t w a s g o i n g o n a n d h e r d i s s a ti s f a c t io n a b o u t t h e r o l e y o u
h a d p l a y e d i n i t?
10

M R K O N A : N o . I m e a n I k n e w w h a t t h o s e – t h o s e p e o p le n o w – w h a t
was going on.

I m e a n it w i ll n o t t a k e a r o c k e t s c i e n c e A d v o c a t e t o

k n o w w h a t is g o in g o n .

By th e n m y e y e s w e r e o p e n i n t e r m s o f w h a t

t h e r o l e o f th e s e p e o p l e w a s a n d I k n e w – I s ta r t e d – I s ta r t e d t o k n o w
t h a t t h e y w e r e – t h is f a m ily t h a t w a s d o i n g th i n g s b e h i n d – m a k i n g
t h i n g s d o a b l e b e h i n d th e s c e n e s .

A n d t h a t is w h y s h e w o u l d h a v e

w a n t e d m e t o b e k e p t a s fa r a w a y a s p o s s ib l e f r o m t h o s e – fr o m t h o s e
people.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h a t I a m j u s t in t e r e s t e d i n is h o w y o u

a c q u ir e d t h a t k n o w le d g e i n th is p e r i o d o f ti m e b e c a u s e y o u r e v i d e n c e
20

e a r l ie r w a s th a t i n O c t o b e r w h e n y o u w e r e a p p r o a c h e d fo r t h e m e e t in g .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n o t k n o w w h o t h e G u p t a ’s w e r e o r w h a t
t h e ir r o l e w a s a n d w e a r e n o w i n th e e n d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u d o h a v e a s e n s e . H o w d i d y o u a c q u ir e

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t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n ?
M R K O N A : A d v o c a t e y o u t a lk t o p e o p l e . J a y o u t a lk t o p e o p l e . A n d
through engagement with people, through having your eyes opening up
a n d tr y in g to f in d o u t w h a t i s g o i n g o n .

Yo u th e n g e t to s e e w h a t is

r e a l ly – w h a t i s r e a lly g o i n g o n ? R e m e m b e r t h a t a t th is ju n c t u r e I h a d
b e e n b a t tl i n g t o g e t m y c o n s u l ti n g – m y c o n s u l t a n c y t o – t o s t a r t
moving. I had been made a lame duck CEO kind of thing because I was
n o t b e i n g a b l e t o d o m y w o r k w i th in t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . S o y o u – w h e n
p e o p l e s t a r t t o b e h a v e i n a s tr a n g e m a n n e r t h e n y o u s t a r t – y o u s t a r t t o
10

a s k a r o u n d y o u k n o w.

Yo u s ta r t to b e m o r e i n tu i tiv e o n w h a t is

h a p p e n in g w i th i n y o u r e n v ir o n m e n t a n d t h e o u ts i d e e n v ir o n m e n t . N o w I
t h i n k – I m e a n w h a t I c a n s a y A d v o c a t e i s t h a t s o m e ti m e s y o u g e t i n t o
t h e s e t h i n g s a n d y o u g e tt i n g w it h a c e r t a i n s e n s e o f n a iv e t y a n d w h e n I
s a y n a i v e t y i t is in t e r m s o f w h a t is – w h a t is r e a l ly g o i n g o n . Yo u k n o w
a n d t h e n y o u w a k e u p a n d b y th e t i m e y o u w a k e u p to s e e w h a t is g o i n g
o n t h e n i t is a b it – i t is a b i t t o o la t e t o k i n d o f li k e u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is
going on.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u f o r t h a t .
MR KONA: Ja.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d n o w l ik e t o m o v e t o t h e T N A a s p e c t i f
we may?
MR KONA: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And we commence with that at page 13 of

D D 1 7 . D o y o u h a v e t h a t?
M R K O N A : Ye s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . S o w e a r e in E x h i b i t D D 1 7 p a g e 1 3
a n d th a t is a d o c u m e n t e n ti tl e d B A C s u b m is s io n fo r t h e c o n fi n e m e n t o r
s c o p e e x t e n s io n a n d o t h e r s . D o y o u r e c a ll th is d o c u m e n t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s t h i s d o c u m e n t ?
MR KONA:

I t w h a t t h e b i d a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e g iv e s f o r a p p r o v a l

o n c e t h e y h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h t h e a p p r o v a l c o m e a n d s a y, c a n y o u t h e n
g iv e – a s th e fi n a l a u th o r it y c a n y o u t h e n a u th o r is e u s t o i m p l e m e n t th is
t h i n g . T h i s p r o c e s s t h in g .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d i t r e l a te t o ?
M R K O N A : Th e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t in p a r t ic u l a r in r e l a ti o n t o th e N e w

Age newspapers?
M R K O N A : O k a y. A d v o c a te w h e n I – w h e n I g o t i n t h e r e t h e N e w A g e
w a s a lr e a d y i n p r o c e s s . I t w a s a lr e a d y i n – b e i n g s u p p li e d b y t h e – t o
t h e a ir li n e . H o w e v e r w h a t t h e g u y s f r o m N e w A g e w e r e n o t h a p p y w i t h
– th e y w e r e n o t h a p p y w i t h th e ir q u a n ti ti e s . T h e y w e r e n o t h a p p y w i t h
w h a t – w h a t t h e a ll o c a ti o n , t h e n u m b e r s t h a t th e y w e r e p r e s e n ti n g th e
a ir li n e . S o t h e n th e y c a m e t o m e a n d s a i d , c a n w e t h e n – w h e n – b e
20

a b l e t o in c r e a s e t h e v o l u m e s t h a t w e c u r r e n t ly s u p p ly in g t o t h e a ir li n e s
s o th a t w e a r e t r e a te d e q u a l ly l ik e th e o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
a p p r o a c h t a k e p la c e ?

A n d ju s t t e ll u s w h e n d i d – w h e n d i d t h a t
I know we are going back many years but I

g u e s s w h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d i n i s t h is B A C s u b m i s s i o n i s d a t e d t h e 6
N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 . D i d t h e i n te r a c t io n h a p p e n b e fo r e t h a t d a t e ?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R K O N A : I t h a p p e n e d b e fo r e t h a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t s o m e ti m e a f te r y o u w e r e a p p o in t e d a s

CEO.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t o c c u r r e d i n O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 ?
MR KONA: In October – somewhere in October yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 2 O c t o b e r if I r e c a l l.
10

MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o s o m e w h e r e b e t w e e n 1 2 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 a n d 6
November 2012.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s t h is a p p r o a c h f r o m T N A ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o fr o m T N A ?
M R K O N A : Th e a d v is o r o f t h e M in is t e r – S iy a b o n g a M a h la n g u c a m e t o
m e a n d s a i d , T N A w o u l d l ik e to s u p p l y n e w s p a p e r s .
c o m p a n y.

20

T h e r e i s th is

I a ls o w a s n o t a w a r e w h o t h e o w n e r s o f T N A w a s .

It was

ju s t a n e w s p a p e r a s f a r a s I w a s c o n c e r n e d a n d s o I s a id o k a y w h a t d o
t h e y w a n t to d o ?

T h e n h e s a i d th e y w a n t to s u p p l y n e w s p a p e r s , t h e y

w a n t to b e tr e a t e d e q u a ll y li k e o th e r n e w s p a p e r s s u p p li e r s li k e t h e
B u s i n e s s D a y a n d t h e S t a r. S o I s a id , o k a y i f th e y w a n t t o d o th a t t h e
p e o p l e t h e n th a t t h e y n e e d to e n g a g e w it h a r e t h e S u p p l y C h a in p e o p l e
b e c a u s e t h e y a r e t h e o n e s t h a t k n o w a n d t h e m a r k e t in g p e o p le . T h e y

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are the ones that work out the demand of the certain papers. They are
t h e o n e s t h a t d e c i d e o n th e v o l u m e s . I d o n o t d e c i d e o n th e v o l u m e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
M R K O N A : J a a n d s o t h a t is w h e n I – t h e y w e n t t o t h e m . T h e y w e n t
a n d s p o k e t o t h e p e o p l e fr o m th e m a r k e ti n g p e o p l e a n d t h e S u p p l y
C h a in p e o p l e . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u h e l p m e a g a i n ?
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t w i th c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .
10

M R K O N A : Ye s
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h r o n o l o g y. Yo u m o v e d t o t h e C E O p o s i t io n o n
t h e 1 2 O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e B A C s u b m is s i o n is th e 6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r M a h la n g u h a d t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h y o u
somewhere between that?
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

20

We know another event that happened in that

p e r i o d a n d t h a t is th e e v e n t w h e n y o u w e n t to t h e S a x o n w o l d h o u s e .
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h a t w a s a t t h e e n d o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 ?
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r h e a p p r o a c h e d y o u a b o u t
T N A b e f o r e o r a f te r t h a t m e e ti n g ?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
MR KONA: Before.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e f o r e ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t t h a t m e e t i n g w a s t h e r e a n y d i s c u s s io n
a b o u t T N A b e c a u s e a f t e r a ll it w a s th e G u p t a ’s m e d i a h o u s e ?
M R K O N A : A t t h e G u p ta m e e ti n g n o th e r e w a s n o m e n ti o n o f T N A .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t a t a l l?
M R K O N A : N o th e r e w a s n o – n o t h i n g n o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

S o w h e n y o u m e t a t th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e h a d

y o u m a d e n o a s s o c i a ti o n b e tw e e n T N A a n d th e G u p t a ’s ?
M R K O N A : A b s o l u te ly – a b s o lu t e l y n o t . J a I m e a n I k n e w t h e C E O o f
T N A N a z i e m H o w a I s t u d i e d w i t h h i m s o I n e v e r a s s o c i a t e d th a t h e
w o u ld b e t h e r e .

I n e v e r a s s o c i a t e d T N A w it h t h e G u p t a ’s i t w a s ju s t

a n o t h e r n e w s p a p e r a n d fo r m e t h e g u y s w a n t e d t o – to g e t s o m e m o r e
access and I said, okay talk to the Supply Chain people and if they are
h a p p y w e w il l – w e w il l g o t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s e s a n d g iv e t h e v o l u m e s
lik e w h a t w e a l w a y s d o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
MR KONA: Ja.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w if w e g o b a c k t o t h e s u b m is s i o n t h a t c a m e
to you.
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s d a t e d t h e 6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 a n d y o u w il l
fi n d i t a t p a g e 1 3 . Yo u w i ll s e e i n t h e s e c t io n t h a t s a y s B a c k g r o u n d . I t
is r e c o r d e d t h e r e :

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
“ I n t h e m e e t in g o f 2 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 th e B A C
supported and recommended for approval through
t h e D O A s u b j e c t t o n e g o t ia t io n o f a 1 0 % d is c o u n t .
T h e b u s i n e s s u n i t e n g a g e d i n n e g o ti a ti o n s w i t h t h e
New

Age

M e d ia

and

a

discount

of

30%

was

achieved.”
D i d y o u s e e th a t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

D i d y o u e v e r g o b a c k a n d e n q u ir e a b o u t t h a t

p r i o r B A C m e e t in g o r t h e te r m s o n w h i c h t h e a p p r o v a l h a d b e e n m a d e ?
M R K O N A : W h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g A d v o c a t e T N A w a s a lr e a d y s u p p ly i n g
papers when I got there?

S o t h e o n ly is s u e t h a t N a z i e m w a s

c o m p la i n i n g a b o u t h e w a y s a y in g t o m e , h e is a l r e a d y s u p p l y i n g p a p e r s
h o w e v e r h e is n o t – h is c o n tr a c t is n o t f in a l is e d w i t h S A A a n d it i s n o t
done.

A n d fo r m e m y is s u e w a s t h a t b u t g u y s w h y a r e w e s u p p ly in g

without an agreement?

L e t u s m a k e s u r e th a t w e a r e c o m p li a n t a n d

t h e r e is a n a g r e e m e n t in p la c e . Th a t is w h e n – s o b y t h e t i m e I s t a r te d
w o r k i n g t h e r e t h e y w e r e a l r e a d y s u p p ly i n g n e w s p a p e r s i n t h e r e j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d w h e n …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O n e s e c o n d M s H o f m e y r.

b a c k g r o u n d is i n c o m p l e t e .

Th a t f ir s t s e n t e n c e u n d e r

I t d o e s n o t s a y w h a t it is t h a t w a s

r e c o m m e n d e d f o r a p p r o v a l b u t y o u o b v i o u s ly u n d e r s t o o d i t i n a c e r ta i n
w a y. W h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d h a d b e e n r e c o m m e n d e d f o r a p p r o v a l ?
M R K O N A : Th e s u p p ly – t h e s u p p l y o f n e w s p a p e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
MR KONA: Of adding TNA newspapers.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h a t is w h a t i t w a s a b o u t ?
M R K O N A : Th a t i s w h a t i t w a s a b o u t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u m a k e e n q u ir i e s a s t o w h a t t e r m s
t h e c u r r e n t n e w s p a p e r s u p p ly w a s b e i n g g i v e n o n ?
M R K O N A : I – t h a t is t h e – th a t is w h y I s a i d t h e S u p p ly C h a i n p e o p le
a n d t h e p e o p l e o n S u p p l y C h a in th e y m u s t l o o k in t o i t a n d m a k e s u r e
t h a t w e d o n o t n e e d t o e n t e r a s lo n g a s i t d o e s n o t c o s t m e m o r e a n d
10

t h e y a r e g iv e n t h e s a m e – a t th e s a m e – w h a t d o y o u c a ll i t ? A t t h e
s a m e r a t e a s o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s u p p l ie r s th e n i t b e c o m e s a f a i r
tr a n s a c ti o n . A n d t h a t is th e c o n v e r s a ti o n . A n d t h a t is w h a t I t o l d th e m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t I w o u l d l i k e t o ta k e y o u t o n e x t i s th e
le t t e r th a t w a s s e n t t o T N A b y S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s t h e d a y a f te r t h a t
B A C m e e ti n g t h a t i s r e f e r r e d t o in th e s u b m is s i o n t o y o u . A n d y o u w i ll
fi n d t h a t a t a p a g e b a c k a t p a g e 1 2 . D o y o u s e e t h a t l e t t e r ?
M R K O N A : Yu p .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ar e y o u a w a r e o f s e e i n g t h is l e t te r a t t h e ti m e
t h a t y o u w e r e c o n s i d e r i n g t h e B A C s u b m is s io n ?

20

MR KONA: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n d i d y o u fir s t s e e i t ?
MR KONA: When you sent it to me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . It is d a t e d t h e 2 3 Fe b r u a r y
2 0 11 a n d y o u w il l s e e t h a t in t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h t h e s e c o n d
s e n te n c e i t s a y s :

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
“ T h e b i d a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e s a t o n 2 2 F e b r u a r y
2 0 11 a n d c o n s i d e r e d y o u r p r o p o s a l a n d I a m p l e a s e d
t o a d v is e th a t i t a c c e p te d t h e r e q u e s t t o d is tr i b u t e
t h e N e w A g e p u b l ic a ti o n o n b o a r d o u r a ir c r a f t o n
s i m il a r c o n d i t io n s a n d p r i c i n g c u r r e n t ly e n j o y e d b y
S A A o n t h e p u b li c a t i o n s a n d n e w s p a p e r s d is t r i b u t e d
o n b o a r d o u r a ir c r a f t . ”
A n d t h e n i t g o e s o n t o i n d ic a te t h e f o l lo w in g p r o p o s a l :
“ G iv e n th e a b o v e I w i s h to p u t f o r w a r d th e f o l l o w in g
10

S A A o ff e r t o T N A M e d i a . ”
And it records:
“ S A A i n t e n d s t o p u r c h a s e n o m o r e th a n 2 4 0 0 0
c o p i e s p e r m o n t h a t R 2 ,3 0 p e r c o p y. VAT in c l u s i v e .
T h e s e c o p ie s a r e t o b e m a d e a v a il a b l e o n b o a r d
o n ly o n S A A f l i g h ts . ”
And then the next paragraph reads:
“ T h e q u a l i ty - t h e q u a n ti ty a n d p r i c e s o ffe r e d a b o v e
h a v e b e e n c a lc u l a t e d b a s e d o n o u r c u r r e n t m o n t h l y
a v e r a g e i n ta k e o f s i m il a r p u b lic a ti o n s .

20

I t is a ls o

based on the fact that The New Age Newspaper
d o e s n o t y e t h a v e a n e s ta b lis h e d r e a d e r s h ip a n d
t h a t p a s s e n g e r in t e r e s t i n t h i s p u b li c a t io n h a s n o t
y e t b e e n d e t e r m in e d . Fi n a ll y p l e a s e n o te t h a t S A A
is n o t i n a p o s i ti o n t o t a k e a n y t h i n g m o r e t h a n th e
q u a n ti ty m e n t i o n e d a b o v e . S h o u ld T N A M e d i a w i s h

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for

SAA to

d is tr ib u t e

more

than

th is

q u a n t i ty

a d d it i o n a l c o p ie s w o u l d h a v e t o b e p r o v i d e d fr e e o f
charge by TNA Media.”
M r K o n a , w h e n y o u c o n s id e r e d t h e B A C s u b m is s io n d i d y o u
know that the BAC previously had taken these views …
MR KONA: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n r e l a ti o n t o c o n t r a c ti n g ?
M R K O N A : A n d - a n d h e n c e th a t is w h y w h e n - w h e n th e y c a m e t o m e
t o a s k . I s a i d th e y m u s t d e a l w i t h t h e - w i t h t h e B A C p e o p le a n d th e
10

u s e r s , b e c a u s e I w a s n o t in a p o s i t io n t o c o m e a n d s a y w h a t i s
a d e q u a t e a n d w h a t is n o t a d e q u a t e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R K O N A : I c o u l d - I c o u ld n o t m a k e t h a t - t h a t j u d g m e n t . I w a s n o t in
a p la c e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And when you say when they came to you.

W h o is t h e y ?
M R K O N A : Th e - t h e M i n i s t e r ’s a d v is o r a n d t h e TA - th e T N A p e o p l e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So

you

had

conversations

both

with

M r M a h l a n g u a n d w i th t h e T N A p e o p l e ?
20

M R K O N A : N o . M r M a h la n g u a s k e d m e t o s a y c a n y o u m e e t w it h - w i t h
t h e T N A p e o p le t o - to s e e h o w y o u c a n - h o w y o u c a n a s s is t t h e m .
T h e y w a n t t o i n c r e a s e th e i r v o l u m e s th a t t h e y p u t o n th e a ir li n e . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
page 13.

B e c a u s e if y o u g o t o t h e B A C s u b m is s io n a t

N o n e o f t h o s e f a c ts a r e r e c o r d e d i n t h e s u b m is s i o n .

they?

Page 130 of 204

Are

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R K O N A : B u t r e m e m b e r a d v o c a t e , th is h a p p e n s i n 2 0 11 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R K O N A : J a . S o I - I c o m e i n - i n 2 0 1 2 a n d t h e e n g a g e m e n t in 2 0 1 2
is p u r e ly fo r a d d i ti o n a l v o l u m e s t h a t th e s e - t h a t t h e s e g u y s - t h a t th e s e
guys wanted.

Tw o , t h e y w a n t e d - N a z e e m w a s s a y i n g h e h a s g o t a n

a g r e e m e n t , b u t h i s a g r e e m e n t is n o t fi n a li s e d w i t h S A A . S o I s a y t o s o m y - my is s u e w i th h i m w a s t h a t .
P l e a s e l e t u s m a k e s u r e th a t y o u a r e c o m p l ia n t , b u t i f i t d o e s
n o t w o r k t h e n w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o t a k e t h e ( i n d is ti n c t) .
10

So I had

a b s o l u t e ly n o a u t h o r i ty i n e i t h e r m a k i n g t h e d e c is io n t o c o m e a n d s a y
t h is w o u l d w o r k o r it w i ll n o t w o r k . T h a t d e c i s i o n w a s p u r e ly p u t ti n g o n
t h e B A C a n d - a n d t h e s tu ff a t t h e b o t to m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l M r K o n a y o u …
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e t h e C E O w h o h a d to a p p r o v e t h is …
M R K O N A : A c ti n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Tr a n s a c t io n .
M R K O N A : A c ti n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . Ac t in g C E O .

20

MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a d t o a p p r o v e i t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u a r e t h e fi n a l r e s p o n s i b l e a u t h o r i ty

within SAA …
M R K O N A : Ye s .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To e n t e r i n t o t h i s c o n tr a c t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R ig h t .

Yo u s a y t h a t i t h a d to d e a l w it h

a d d it i o n a l v o lu m e s ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u n o t t h i n k i t w a s r e le v a n t f o r t h e B A C t o
in c l u d e i n th e s u b m is s io n t h a t w h e n t h e y h a d o ffe r e d i n Fe b r u a r y 2 0 11
t o t a k e 2 4 0 0 0 c o p i e s a m o n t h . T h a t w a s t h e m a x i m u m t h a t th e y w e r e
w i ll in g to c o n tr a c t fo r ?
10

M R K O N A : W e l l a t t h e ti m e t h e r e w a s a b s o l u te ly n o n e e d - n o n e e d f o r
m e . I d i d n o t s e e a n e e d t o d o t h a t a c c o r d i n g t o m y b e tt e r j u d g m e n t a t
t h e t i m e a n d h e n c e t h a t is w h y I s a y to - I s a y t o t h e m . T h e i n s tr u c t io n
f o r th e m w a s t h a t w e s h o u ld n o t g o b e y o n d t h e t e r m s th a t w e h a v e
a g r e e d t o n e i th e r s h o u l d w e p a y m o r e th a n w h a t w e a r e p r e p a r e d - w h a t
w e c a n a ffo r d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e g o t o m o ti v a t io n o n p a g e 1 3 .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t is w h e r e o r d i n a r i ly i n t h e s e s u b m i s s i o n s

t h e p e r s o n b e in g a s k e d to a p p r o v e is t o l d w h y th e y s h o u l d c o m m i t t h e
20

c o m p a n y t o t h e m o n e y t h a t is b e i n g r e q u e s t e d . W i ll y o u r e a d i n t o t h e
r e c o r d w h a t t h e m o ti v a t io n s a y s ?

I t is a b i g h e a d i n g in t h e m i d d l e o f

p a g e i n c a p i ta ls - m o t iv a t i o n - o n p a g e 1 3 . D o y o u h a v e i t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d y o u r e a d t h a t i n t o th e r e c o r d p le a s e ?
MR KONA:

“ S A A w il l b e i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e a d d i t io n a l c o p i e s

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
f o r a p e r i o d o f 1 2 m o n t h s . W h ils t S A A i s e v a l u a t i n g
t h e c u r r e n t u s a g e a n d s c o p e in s u p p ly i n g o u r
c u s t o m e r s w it h p u b lic a ti o n . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d t h a t t e l l y o u w h y f u r t h e r c o p i e s s h o u ld b e

procured by SAA?
M R K O N A : Yo u k n o w - y o u k n o w a d v o c a t e . W e b u y - w e b u y p a p e r s
a b o a r d a ll t h e ti m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R K O N A : B y - b y t h e a ir l i n e s fo r - f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n a n d i f I a m - i f
10

I a m s i tt i n g th e r e a s - a s a p e r s o n w h o is - w h o is r e a lly s it t in g i n a n b e i n g a n ( i n d is ti n c t) .

These are handout - these are handout papers

a n d t h e s u b m is s io n h a s g o n e t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s a n d th e y h a v e p u t i n
t h e - t h e v o lu m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n . H a n g o n M r K o n a . I a m s o r r y.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k y o u w a n t t o g iv e y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e o r

m o t iv a t i o n a s y o u s a w i t , b u t t h e q u e s t io n is w h e t h e r w h a t is w r i t t e n
t h e r e u n d e r m o t iv a ti o n g a v e y o u t h e r e a s o n s . S o d o y o u w a n t t o s t a r t
b y s a y i n g , y e s i t d id p r o v i d e th e r e a s o n s o r n o , i t d i d n o t p r o v id e t h e
20

r e a s o n s a n d t h e n y o u c a n e l a b o r a t e i f y o u w a n t to .
M R K O N A : C h a i r - C h a i r w e - w e a r e s i t ti n g t h e r e a n d t h e s e i s s u e s i f I
t a k e r e li a n c e o n t h e b id a d j u d ic a ti o n o n th e w o r k t h a t t h e b id
a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e d d o e s a n d I r e l y o n - o n t h e i r w o r k . I f t h e y h a v e
d o n e t h e ir w o r k t o c o m e a n d s a y, b e c a u s e t h e y a r e t h e o n e s th a t s e e
t h e n e e d o f a p r o je c t. S o t h e q u e s t i o n I a s k …

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . I h e a r w h a t y o u s a y.
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e ju s t r e a d w h a t i s w r it t e n u n d e r m o t iv a ti o n .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e q u e s ti o n i s d o e s th a t g iv e - d i d t h a t g i v e r e a s o n s .
S o y o u c a n s a y y e s , i t d i d g iv e r e a s o n s . I u n d e r s ta n d t h e r e a s o n s o r
n o , i t d id n o t a n d th e n y o u c a n p u t w h a t e v e r c o n te x t y o u t h i n k s h o u l d
b e p u t fo r w a r d .

S u c h a s I th i n k w h a t y o u a r e tr y i n g t o d o .

I - I just

w a n t u s to …
10

MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u to a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n f ir s t .
M R K O N A : J a , C h a ir. I t h i n k I a m m o r e c o m f o r ta b le w i th m y - w i t h th e
r e a s o n s t h a t - w it h t h e m o t iv a t i o n t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
M R K O N A : Th a t I a m g iv i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Does - does …?
MR KONA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o e s w h a t i s w r i t t e n h e r e p r o v id e a r e a s o n o r a

m o t iv a t i o n o r n o t? A s y o u s i t t h e r e a r e y o u a b le t o s a y t h is g a v e m e a
20

r e a s o n o r r e a s o n s t o j u s ti f y th e i n c r e a s e o n t h e c o p i e s o f p a p e r o f t h e
paper?
M R K O N A : C h a ir, y e s i t d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It d i d ?
M R K O N A : Ye s . I t d id . Ye s . I t d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n y o u - t h e n y o u c a n e l a b o r a te .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u w a n t t o e l a b o r a t e .
MR KONA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ju s t w a n t u s t o m a k e p r o g r e s s in t e r m s o f w h e r e y o u
s t a n d o n w h a t it s a y s a n d th e n y o u c a n g iv e w h a t y o u w is h t o a d d .
M R K O N A : J a . C h a ir, I d i d - I d i d n o t s e e a n y t h i n g u n to w a r d w i th - I
m e a n . W e g e t - w h e n - w h e n w e a r e s i t t in g th e r e . W e g e t a p p r o a c h e d
10

b y a ll k in d s o f b u s in e s s p e o p le e v e r y d a y t h a t a r e b u s i n e s s a p p l y i n g
w i t h p r o d u c t s in - i n to th e a ir l i n e a n d i f t h e r e is a n e e d f o r t h e m t o b e
u s e d . W e tr y - w e - w e s a m p l e th e ( in d is ti n c t) a n d w e tr y t h e m a n d i f
there is no need.
T h e r e is - th e r e i s n o n e e d t o d o t h a t , b u t w h e n I c o m e a n d
s a y “ w e ” . I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t r e a ll y t h e a ir li n e . N o t - n o t m e . W e - t h e
p e o p l e g o t h r o u g h t h e ir - t h e ir p r o c e s s e s - t h e s u p p ly c h a in p r o c e s s e s .
S o f o r m e w h e n - w h e n t h e y c a m e to m e a n d s a i d w e w a n t t o b e tr e a t e d
e q u a l ly a s o t h e r - a s t h e o t h e r p a p e r s .
M y v i e w w a s t h a t I a m n o t - i c a n n o t m a k e th a t - th a t

20

d e c is i o n .

D e a l w i t h th e s u p p ly c h a i n p e o p le a n d th e s u p p ly c h a i n

p e o p l e c a m e a n d t o ld m e t h e ( in d is ti n c t) .

T h a t th is is w h a t t h e y a r e

p r e p a r e d t o d o f o r t h e s e p e o p l e a n d th e y w i ll s e e w h e t h e r i t w i ll w o r k w h e t h e r i t w o r k s f o r t h e m a n d e v e n t h e a d v i s o r o f th e Mi n is t e r S iy a M a h l a n g u - I t o l d h i m .
I s a i d th is is w h a t I c a n o n ly d o f o r t h e s e p e o p l e a n d h is v i e w

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
w a s t h a t t a k e it o r l e a v e i t .
c o s t c u t ti n g e x e r c i s e .

T h e y k n o w t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g th r o u g h a

I f it d o e s n o t w o r k t h e n t h a t is i t .

It does not

w o r k . W e a r e n o t g o i n g t o d o i t a n d s o t h a t is - th a t is t h e s t a n c e th a t that we took.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr K o n a …
M R K O N A : Ye s m a ’ a m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is p o in t a b o u t b e i n g tr e a t e d e q u a l ly. T h a t is
n o t t h e m o t iv a ti o n g i v e n fo r t h is a p p r o v a l . Is i t ?
M R K O N A : I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t my e n g a g e m e n t w i th it .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , b u t y o u r a n s w e r w a s t h a t …
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is m o t iv a t i o n g a v e y o u t h e r e a s o n t o …
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Commit

a

further

R2.4

m il li o n

for

TNA

N e w s p a p e r s o v e r t h e y e a r. I p i c k th a t u p a t th e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 3 .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I a m j u s t i n d ic a te - w h a t i n t h a t s e c ti o n o n
m o t iv a t i o n t o l d y o u t h a t w h a t w a s m o ti v a ti n g t h e B A C w a s th a t T N A
w a n t e d t o b e tr e a t e d e q u a lly t o o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s ?
20

MR KONA:

O k a y.

R e m e m b e r - r e m e m b e r a d v o c a te t h e y c a m e - t h e y

came to me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
MR KONA: Ja and said to me we are not happy with how we are being
tr e a t e d . W e h a v e n o t e v e n c o n c l u d e d th e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e h a d w i t h
SA - that we had with SAA.

S o w h il s t t h e y s ta r t e d g iv i n g p a p e r s i n

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
2 0 11 . T h e a g r e e m e n t w a s n o t s i g n e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R K O N A : J a . S o I s a id - I s a id t o N a z e e m . G o b a c k a n d t a lk g o t h e
s u p p ly c h a in g u y s .

So that you make sure that they are happy and I

t o l d t h e s u p p l y c h a in g u y s .

I s a i d , g u y s y o u h a v e n o t - th e s e p e o p l e

a r e - a r e b u s y p a y i n g fo r - f o r t h e n e w s p a p e r s .

We do not have a

s ig n e d a g r e e m e n t a t t h e m o m e n t .
Just engage these people and see whether there is a need.
I f th e r e is n o n e e d . Th e n y o u te ll t h e m a n d t h e n w e s i g n - w e s i g n a n
10

agreement of what - of what is there. Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h e r e d i d t h e B A C s u b m i s s io n t e ll y o u th a t

there was a need?
M R K O N A : S o r r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h e r e d i d th e B A C s u b m is s i o n t e ll y o u t h e r e

was a need?
M R K O N A : N o , n o . T h a t w a s - t h a t w a s I s a i d - t h a t is w h a t I s a i d to
t h e m . I s a y i f - i f t h e r e i s a n e e d y o u t a k e i t . I f t h e r e is n o n e e d th e n
y o u d o n o t ta k e i t. T h a t - j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d id - d i d y o u a s s u m e t h a t th e r e w a s a n e e d ?
20

M R K O N A : N o . I d i d n o t . T h a t is w h y I s a i d I n e v e r s a i d to t h e m - I
s a i d t h is is w h a t t h e s e p e o p le a r e s a y in g . I f t h e r e is a n e e d y o u t a k e
it . If t h e r e is n o n e e d th e n y o u d o n o t t a k e i t . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M r K o n a , y o u a r e g o i n g t o n e e d t o h e l p if y o u

do not mind.
M R K O N A : O k a y.

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u - a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e - h a v e a n
in t e r a c ti o n w i t h Mr H o w a i n w h i c h h e s a y s t o y o u h e is d i s s a t is fi e d
a b o u t t h e f a c t th a t h e i s n o t b e i n g t r e a t e d t h e s a m e a s o t h e r
newspapers.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e r e - d id y o u m a k e a n y in q u ir ie s a s a t t h e

ti m e a b o u t t h e t e r m s o n w h ic h T N A w a s b e i n g tr e a te d r e l a tiv e to o th e r
10

media houses?
M R K O N A : Th e r e w a s n o a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s s i g n e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s n o t t h e q u e s t io n M r K o n a .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D id y o u m a k e a n y i n q u ir i e s a t t h e ti m e a b o u t

T N A w a s b e i n g t r e a te d r e l a ti v e t o t h e o t h e r m e d i a h o u s e s ?
M R K O N A : Ye s . I d id .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d t h a t e s t a b li s h ?
MR KONA:

T h a t t h e y d id n o t h a v e a s i g n e d a g r e e m e n t a n d a l s o t h e y

w e r e a n e w n e w s p a p e r c o m i n g - c o m i n g o n to - c o mi n g o n to th e m a r k e t .
20

Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Had

they

been

paid

p r e v i o u s ly

for

the

s u b s c r i p ti o n s p u r s u a n t t o t h e Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 B A C d e c is i o n ?
M R K O N A : I w o u l d - I w o u l d a s s u m e s o , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e s u p p ly in g
newspapers.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S e e b e c a u s e w h a t …

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T N A w a s t o l d i n Fe b r u a r y …
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 11 w h e n th a t a g r e e m e n t …
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s c o n c l u d e d fo r t w o m o n t h s . W a s t h a t i t w a s
b e i n g tr e a t e d t h e s a m e w a y a s t h e o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s .
MR KONA: Ja. I was …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll r e a d i n g t h a t ?
10

M R K O N A : I w a s - I w a s n o t a w a r e . T h a t i s - t h a t is t h e l e t te r t h a t I
s a i d I w a s n o t a w a r e w h e n - w h e n I g o t t h e s e d o c u m e n ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t y o u r e c e iv e d o t h e r in f o r m a t io n th a t is

s u g g e s t e d to y o u t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t b e i n g tr e a t e d t h e s a m e a n d t h e y
w a n t e d g r e a t e r c ir c u la t io n . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O N A : N o . T h e o n ly i n fo r m a t i o n - t h e o n l y i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I h a d I
o n ly h a d e n g a g e m e n t w i th N a z e e m - N a z e e m H o w a a n d h e is t h e o n e
t h e n w h o p a s s e d o n th is - t h i s - t h is i n f o r m a t io n to m e . T h e n I w e n t t o
t h e B i d A d ju d i c a t io n C o m m i t t e e a n d s a i d h a v e y o u g u y s - d o e s h e n o t b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e n h e t o l d m e t h a t h is c o n tr a c t h a s n o t b e e n s i g n e d
20

to.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
MR KONA:

T h e n m y c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th t h is - w i t h t h e B A C g u y s w a s

t h a t g u y s c a n w e m a k e s u r e th a t t h i s p r o c e s s i s c o m p le t e d .
t h e n w e fi n a l is e t h is - th is i s s u e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .

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S o th a t

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
MR KONA: At the - at the moment and then that is - that is when then
t h e y - t h e y e n g a g e d a n d c a m e u p - c a m e u p w i th t h is .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr K o n a …
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th is s u b m is s io n is n o t t o r e g u l a r i s e t h e

e x i s ti n g a r r a n g e m e n t . It is a m o tiv a ti o n to i n c r e a s e o v e r a p e r i o d o f 1 2
m o n th s t h e d a ily c o p i e s fr o m 3 0 0 0 a d a y t o 7 0 0 0 a d a y.
M R K O N A : A d v o c a t e y o u a r e n o t g e t ti n g m e c o r r e c t ly.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
10

MR KONA:

I a m s a y i n g t h a t - w i t h r e s p e c t I a m s a y in g t h e y w e r e

a lr e a d y s u p p l y i n g p a p e r s …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R K O N A : B u t th e y d i d n o t h a v e a s i g n e d a g r e e m e n t w i th t h e a ir li n e
a n d I - I a c c e p t th a t i t w a s a n a d d i t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
MR KONA:

S o t h e y a lr e a d y h a d a t e n d e r t h a t - th a t th e y w e r e

s u p p ly in g …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R K O N A : B u t t h i s w a s i n a d d it i o n …
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ex a c t ly.
M R K O N A : To w h a t - to w h a t t h e y w e r e - t h e y w e r e s u p p ly in g . S o t h a t
a d d it i o n f o r m e . I s a i d i f - i f w e c a n a ff o r d i t a n d i t w o r k s t h e n y o u c a n
- t h e n - t h e n a n d t h e y c o m e a n d s a y. I t c a n b e d o n e . S u r e y o u c a n g o
a h e a d a n d - a n d d o i t, b u t i f i t c a n n o t b e d o n e . T h e n i t c a n n o t b e d o n e .
Ja.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d id y o u e s ta b l is h t h a t S A A c o u l d a ff o r d i t ?
M R K O N A : I t i s - i t is n o t m e t h a t d o e s t h e e s t a b l is h m e n t . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e ll w h e r e d o e s i t s a y h e r e i n t h i s m o ti v a t io n

t h a t S A A c a n a ff o r d i t?
M R K O N A : S o r r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e d o e s s a y in t h e m o t iv a ti o n t h a t S A A c a n
a ffo r d it ?
M R K O N A : N o . I n my - i n m y c o m m u n i c a ti o n w i th t h e - w i t h t h e te a m .
T h e y t o ld m e t h a t w e - w e c o u l d a ff o r d i t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u t a k e n o t e o f w h a t t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r
o f O p e r a t io n s w r o t e o n t h i s s u b m is s io n b e fo r e i t c a m e t o y o u f o r
approval?
M R K O N A : W h o i s t h a t?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Mr Ramasia at page 15.

Could you read into

t h e r e c o r d w h a t is w r i t t e n t h e r e i n h a n d w r i t in g n e x t t o M r R a m a s i a ’s
name?
M R K O N A : “ T h e r e is c u r r e n tl y n o - n o b u d g e t o n o p e r a ti o n s
f o r t h is . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

S o h o w d e s p it e t h a t d i d y o u c o n t e n t y o u r s e lf

t h a t th e r e w a s a b u d g e t a v a i l a b le f o r th is ?
M R K O N A : W e a r e n o t c h a r g i n g e x tr a . T h a t is - th a t i s - t h a t w a s m y t h a t w a s my c o n v e r s a ti o n t o t h e p e o p l e . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M r K o n a , I th in k y o u a n d I - y o u …
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u i n d i c a t e d e a r l ie r t h a t w e m ig h t b e a t c r o s s

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
purposes.
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t t h in k w e a r e a t c r o s s p u r p o s e s .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h i s w a s a m o ti v a ti o n t o g o fr o m th e c u r r e n t

3 0 0 0 d a ily c o p i e s o f T N A N e w s p a p e r th a t S A A w a s p a y i n g f o r a n d
in c r e a s e t h a t t o m o r e t h a n d o u b l e . To 7 0 0 0 d a ily n e w s p a p e r s a n d t h a t
w a s g o in g to c o s t a c o m p a n y w h ic h y o u r p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e d e s c r i b e d
a s a c o m p a n y b u s y l o s i n g m o n e y.
10

I t w a s g o i n g t o c o s t t h e a ir l in e a n o t h e r R 2 4 0 2 4 0 0 ,0 0 .
B e f o r e y o u a p p r o v e d t h i s w h a t d id y o u d o to c o n te n t y o u r s e l f th a t th a t
m o n e y w a s a v a il a b l e f o r 4 0 0 0 m o r e c o p ie s o f t h e T N A N e w s p a p e r ?
MR KONA:

O k a y.

O k a y.

L e t m e j u s t - le t m e j u s t e x p l a i n to y o u

a d v o c a t e w h a t h a p p e n s if - a s - a s w e a r e - a s w e a r e s o r ti n g o u t t h e
n e t w o r k y o u i n c r e a s e t h e f li g h t s . W h e n y o u i n c r e a s e t h e fl ig h ts t h e r e
is b u d g e t a r y is s u e s th a t i s a ff e c t e d a s w e l l . T h e r e is a n in c r e a s e i n - in
b u d g e t , b u t n o w a s I t o ld y o u e a r l ie r o n th a t a s - a s I w a s b u s y w o r k i n g
a l l - e v e r y th in g th a t w a s I tr y i n g t o p u t i n p la c e .
I h a d t h e p r o v e r b ia l c a r p e t b e in g p u l le d u n d e r f e e t w h e n I
20

w a s t r y i n g t o w o r k - w h e n I w a s tr y in g to w o r k . S o I d o n o t s e e t h is - I
w o u ld n o t h a v e s e e n th is a s a p r o b l e m - a s a p r o b l e m t o m e p e r s e . I t
w o u ld h a v e n o t b e e n a p r o b le m t o m e p e r s e , b e c a u s e w e s t a r t d o i n g o n c e - o n c e y o u r e d o t h e n e tw o r k - o n c e w e r e d o th e n e t w o r k .
T h e n - t h e n - a n d y o u i n c r e a s e t h e n e t w o r k th e n t h e b u d g e t
b e c o m e s - t h e n t h e b u d g e t - th e n t h e b u d g e ts a r e a lr e a d y d o n e a n d

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
t h e y b e c o m e a v a i la b le .

T h e is s u e w a s t h a t m y c o m m u n ic a ti o n t o th e

p e o p l e w a s t h a t c a n w e a ff o r d t o d o t h i s a n d if w e c a n a ff o r d t o d o t h is .
Then let us do it. Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And what did you make of no budget being

a v a i la b le f o r i t ?
M R K O N A : S o r r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

What did you make of the comment that there

was no budget …
MR KONA: Hm.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Av a i l a b l e f o r i t ?
M R K O N A : Yo u k n o w w i th r e s p e c t a d v o c a te fo r m e i t - i t b e c o m e s a n
is s u e o f m y o w n - m y o w n p e r s o n a l ju d g m e n t. J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r K o n a , j u s t h e l p m e a t p a g e 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: I am - I am …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r. Yo u m u s t j u s t t e ll m e if t h e

q u e s t io n I w a n t t o p u t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is c o n n e c t e d w i th t h e q u e s ti o n y o u w a n t t o p u t . I a m
20

n o t s u r e t h a t I f o l lo w e d y o u r e x p l a n a t i o n o f h o w y o u w o u l d h a v e
a p p r o v e d t h a t th e n u m b e r o f c o p i e s o f th i s n e w s p a p e r b e i n c r e a s e d i n
t h e m a n n e r th a t w a s p r o p o s e d .

In c i r c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e th e G M

O p e r a t io n s m a d e a n o te t h a t t h e r e w a s n o b u d g e t f o r O p e r a ti o n s .
I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I fo ll o w e d i t. I w o u l d lik e y o u t o ju s t g iv e it
a g a in .

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M R K O N A : O k a y. C h a ir, t h e - t h e b u s i n e s s is b e i n g r e o r g a n is e d .

So

w h e n a b u s in e s s is b e i n g r e o r g a n is e d e v e r y t h i n g c h a n g e s . S o i f I k n o w
that I am going to cut costs - where I am going to cut costs
o p e r a ti o n a ll y a n d I a m d e a li n g w i t h a - a R 3 0 b il li o n o r g a n i s a t io n a n d I
k n o w t h a t I a m g o i n g t o c u t s o m u c h c o s t s w it h m y in t e r v e n ti o n s th a t t h a t I a m - t h a t I a m p u t ti n g i n p l a c e a n d I a m g o i n g t o i n c r e a s e t h e the networks that I am going to do.
Then when I come and say that I am using my - my better m y b e t t e r j u d g m e n t . I t - i t b e c o m e s a n is s u e o f s a y in g I k n o w t h a t w e
10

a r e g o i n g to h a v e a s u r p l u s o f c a s h o n c e w e i m p l e m e n t t h e s e - t h e s e
in it i a t iv e s th a t - t h a t w e a r e g o in g t o i m p l e m e n t a n d th a t is t h e n g o in g
t o f r e e u p a l o t o f fr e e c a s h f l o w w it h in t h e - w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n a n d
t h a t is w h e n I c o m e a n d s a y t h a t i n - in m y o w n - i n m y o w n b e t te r
ju d g m e n t , b u t I k n e w th a t t h e r e w a s m o n e y w it h t h e i n i ti a ti v e s th a t w e
w e r e p u t t in g i n p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h is is s u e h a v e f a l le n u n d e r O p e r a ti o n s - u n d e r
- is it Ms or Mr Ramasia.
M R K O N A : I t i s Ms .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms ?

20

M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Did it fall under her budget?

newspaper?
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KONA: Ja.

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T h is is s u e o f t h e

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
CHAIRPERSON:

S o is y o u r a n s w e r th e r e fo r e t h a t y o u a p p r o v e d t h is

e v e n th o u g h s h e s a i d t h e r e w a s n o b u d g e t fo r i t i n h e r d e p a r t m e n t
w h e r e th is …
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Belonged?
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s , b e c a u s e - b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a p p r o v e d i t b e c a u s e y o u k n e w …
M R K O N A : A l l t h e i n i ti a ti v e s . Ye s . A l l t h e i n i ti a ti v e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t y o u w o u l d m a k e - g e t m o n e y fr o m s o m e w h e r e

e ls e ?
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D o y o u t h i n k i t w a s r e l e v a n t
t o k n o w w h a t t h e r e a d e r s h i p o f TN A w a s l ik e a t th e t i m e t h a t y o u
c o m m i t t e d t h a t o t h e r b u d g e t t o 2 . 4 m il li o n s p e n d w i t h t h e m ?
M R K O N A : Yo u s e e - y o u s e e a d v o c a te . W e lo o k e d - w e l o o k e d a t - a t
t h is - a t - a t w h a t - a t w h a t w a s g o i n g o n a n d w h e n - w h e n w e a r e

20

s a y in g w h a t w a s g o i n g o n .

W e l o o k e d a t w h a t th e o t h e r p a p e r s w e r e

b e i n g t a k e n a t a n d t h a t is t h e e x p la n a ti o n t h a t m y p e o p l e w e r e s a y i n g .
T h a t o n c e t h e y g e t o n - o n c e t h e y g e t th e l a te s t f ig u r e s .
T h e n t h e y w o u l d b e a b l e t o - t o s e e w h e t h e r t h i s - th is p a p e r
is w o r k i n g o r i t is n o t w o r k i n g . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o - s o c a n I j u s t b e c l e a r ?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u - y o u c o m m i t t h e 2 . 4 m i ll io n b e f o r e y o u

k n o w w h a t t h e r e a d e r s h i p is . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ar e y o u a w a r e th a t a t n o p o i n t d id T N A e v e r

h a v e a c c r e d it e d r e a d e r s h i p o f c ir c u la t io n fi g u r e s ?
MR KONA: No. I am not aware of that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w e r e y o u a w a r e o f th e t a k e u p b y

c u s t o m e r s o n fl ig h ts o f t h e T N A N e w s p a p e r o r a t t h e c h e c k o u t - c h e c k
10

in c o u n t e r s ?
MR KONA: No. I was not aware of that. Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u t h in k i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n r e l e v a n t to

k n o w w h e t h e r th e y w e r e b e i n g p ic k e d u p o r j u s t b e i n g le f t ?
MR KONA: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w o u ld n o t b e r e l e v a n t ?
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. M r K o n a , I t h e n w a n t t o j u s t g o t o t h o s e
S M S c o m m u n ic a ti o n s i f I m a y …
M R K O N A : Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

To c lo s e o ff t h is a s p e c t , b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e

p a r t s t h e r e t h a t y o u d e a l w it h M r M a h la n g u o n a n d w e s t a r t a t p a g e 1 6
of EXHIBIT DD17.
M R K O N A : R ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t s t a r ts w i th a - a m e s s a g e - I t a k e i t

M r M a h l a n g u ’s m e s s a g e s a r e o n th e l e f t a n d y o u r s a r e o n t h e r i g h t . Is

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
that correct?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r M a h l a n g u i n t h a t fi r s t m e s s a g e o n p a g e
16 says:
“ O k a y. L e t m e k n o w. L e t u s s e e w h a t w e c a n d o . I
w i ll tr y a n d b u y y o u a s m u c h s p a c e a s p o s s ib l e . ”
Is t h a t r e l a te d t o TN A a t a l l?
MR KONA: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o .
10

MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 1 7 . I t h i n k t h a t
t h is is w h e r e y o u s t a r t to e n g a g e o n t h e T N A m a t te r. Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And

what

were

you

c o m m u n i c a t in g

to

M r M a h l a n g u i n t h is S M S ?
M R K O N A : I w a s s e n d i n g h i m t h e f e e d b a c k fr o m t h e p e o p l e f r o m - fr o m
b a s ic a lly s u p p ly c h a i n . T h a t w e r e s a y i n g t h is is w h a t i s g o i n g o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a y t h e r e t h a t N a z e e m - t h i s i s i n t h e f ir s t
li n e .
20

“ N a z e e m is n o t b u d g in g o n th e c o s t i s s u e .

He

s t a te s t h a t a G e o r g e M o t e m o ( ? ) o r M o t e m a w h o
a p p a r e n t ly l e f t S A A e m a i l e d h i m a n d a g r e e d o n u s
p a y i n g t h e c o v e r p r ic e o f R 3 , 5 0 p l u s d i s tr i b u t io n
c h a r g e o f 5 0 p e r c e n t p e r c o p y. T h e e m a il w a s f r o m
a Gmail account. I do not know George. With this

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la t e s t p r o p o s a l w e a r e in c r e a s i n g t h e q u a n ti t y b y
4 9 0 0 c o p i e s . S u r e l y th e y c a n c o n s id e r t h e c u r r e n t
p r i c e w e a r e p a y i n g w it h p r e s s s u p p o r t o f R 2 , 3 1 a n d
t a k e t h e ta b f o r d e l iv e r y.
yesterday with no success.

Tr y to g e t h o ld o f h i m
M a r ti n i s b a c k to d a y.

B u lis w a ( ? ) - B u l is a ( ? ) . ”
J u s t t e l l m e w h y a r e y o u e n g a g i n g w i t h M r M a h l a n g u - t h e a d v i s o r to
t h e M i n i s t e r a b o u t t h e d e t a i ls o f T N A s u b s c r i p ti o n s ?
M R K O N A : H e i s t h e o n e w h o b r o u g h t t h e s e p e o p l e . J a . H e is t h e o n e
10

w h o b r o u g h t th e s e p e o p l e a n d I w a s j u s t t e l li n g h i m t o s a y t h i s is - t h i s
is t h e s t o r y. W e c a n n o t - w e c a n n o t d o th i s t h i n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w e r e s a y in g y o u c a n n o t d o i t?
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F E Y R : Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u s a y :
“ Yo u n e e d to in t e r v e n e i f w e d o it a t th e h i g h e r c o s t .

20

T h e n t h e p r o c e s s is m u c h l o n g e r. ”
What does that mean?
MR KONA:

Th e n - th e n w e n e e d t o g e t - th e n b a s ic a l ly th e y - t h e y

have - they have to - to put together a much more support to what - to
w h a t w e h a v e a n d I d o n o t k n o w i f th e y w i ll - th e y w i ll e v e n g e t i t . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s n o t a r e f e r e n c e to t h e in t e r n a l p r o c e s s i n

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SAA?
MR KONA: No. No. No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o .
MR KONA: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s th a t t h e y w o u l d n e e d t o j u s t if y m o r e . I s
that correct?
MR KONA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t a n d t h e n i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e . T h e r e
w i ll b e - t h e r e i s a r e s p o n s e a s I h a v e it fr o m M r M a h l a n g u t o y o u .
10

What does he say in response?
M R K O N A : W h ic h o n e ?
“ Te ll t h e m t h a t … ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MR KONA:

“ … a l l y o u c a n o ff e r t e l l h i m y o u a r e c o n s tr a i n e d

b y y o u r c o s t c u t t in g . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u c o n c l u d e :
“ W il l d o m y c h i e f .

T h a n k s f o r g u id a n c e .

Have a

g r e a t d a y. ”
D i d y o u c o m m u n ic a t e th a t y o u w e r e c o n s t r a i n e d b y y o u r c o s t
20

c u t ti n g t o T N A w h e n y o u c o n c lu d e d t h i s ?
M R K O N A : Ye s . T h e p e o p le d i d - t h e p e o p l e s a i d th a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o …
MR KONA:

I n e v e r - I n e v e r s p o k e t o th e m n o w.

Ja.

I t is t h e - t h e

B A C Te a m t h a t w a s n o w w o r k i n g - t h a t w a s n o w w o r k in g w i t h t h e - w i th
the TNA people.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W a s t h a t b e f o r e y o u g o t t h e s u b m is s i o n f r o m

the BAC that …
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th e y c o m m u n ic a t e t h a t?

Did you check with

t h e m w h e th e r t h e y h a d c o m m u n i c a t e d t h a t y o u h a d a l i m i t g iv e n y o u r
c o s t c u t ti n g s ?
M R K O N A : C o m m u n ic a te w i t h w h o ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T N A .
M R K O N A : J a . I t h in k t h e p e o p l e c o m m u n ic a t e d w i th t h e m . J a .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u i n q u ir e w h e th e r t h e y h a d ?
M R K O N A : I - I s t o p p e d t a lk i n g to T N A a n d th e y - t h e y s t a r t e d t o d e a l t h e y s t a r te d t o d e a l w it h t h e p e o p l e a n d I j u s t s a id . G u y s l e t u s - l e t u s
r e m e m b e r t h a t w e a r e o n a c o s t - w e a r e o n a c o s t c u t ti n g e x e r c i s e .
Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C o u l d w e t h e n j u s t fi n a l ly g o to t h e s i g n a tu r e

t h a t y o u a p p e n d e d to t h e s u b m is s i o n ? Yo u w i ll fi n d i t a t p a g e 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Just before that …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

M s H o f m e y r.

Go back to page 17 Mr Kona.

m e s s a g e th a t y o u s e n t t o M r M a h l a n g u . Yo u s a y i n i t .
“ G o o d m o r n i n g ( A f r ic a n w o r d ) . ”
( Af r ic a n w o r d ) i s s ir.
M R K O N A : Th e m e s s a g e w a s s e n t to m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. That was sent to you?
M R K O N A : Ye s . T h a t w a s s e n t t o m e b y …

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That

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R K O N A : Ye s . S o I s i m p ly f o r w a r d e d i t t o M a h l a n g u .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e I lo o k e d a t …
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Page 16.
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e t h e r e o n e s e t o f m e s s a g e s i s g r e e n a n o t h e r
10

o n e is w h i t e a n d t h e o n e - th e o n e t h a t s a y s ( A fr ic a n w o r d ) w h ic h y o u
s a i d c a m e fr o m h i m is w h i t e .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I t h o u g h t th a t t h e g r e e n o n e s w o u ld b e c o m in g

fr o m h e r e …
M R K O N A : Ye s . I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m y o u t o h i m .
M R K O N A : N o . W h a t - w h a t I a m - w h a t I a m s a y in g C h a ir. I t w a s a
m e s s a g e th a t w a s s e n t to m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

M R K O N A : A n d b y m y g u y s a y i n g th a t t h is is a l l t h a t w e c a n d o . W e
cannot do more.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. That message …
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s n o t - i t w a s n o t a c o m m u n i c a t io n b e t w e e n y o u

and him.

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MR KONA: I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s y o u r s e l f a n d y o u r …
MR KONA:

I t w a s - t h a t - w h a t w a s s e n t to m e a n d t h e n I s i m p ly

f o r w a r d e d i t. T h a t m e s s a g e t o … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u fo r w a r d e d it t o h i m ?
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . W e ll - o n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s w a s
10

M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u l is a . W a s th a t s o m e b o d y ’s n a m e …
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e e n d o f th a t m e s s a g e ?
M R K O N A : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KONA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. N o . T h a t - th a t i s a lr i g h t . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
purposes then.

20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

J u s t t o c la r i fy f o r m y

T h e s e c o n d m e s s a g e o n p a g e 1 7 is t h a t y o u t h e n

ty p i n g t h e r e a f te r ?

T h e fir s t o n e w h i c h s a y s g o o d m o r n in g ( A fr ic a n

w o r d ) . Yo u s a i d w a s s e n t t o y o u b y s o m e b o d y n a m e s B u l is w a - B u li s a
a n d fo r w a r d e d t o Mr M a h l a n g u . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e o n e t h a t a p p e a r s a f t e r th a t is th a t y o u n o w
c o m m u n ic a ti n g ?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u a r e s a y i n g t o h i m :
“ Yo u n e e d to in t e r v e n e i f w e d o it a t th e h i g h e r c o s t .
T h e n t h e p r o c e s s is m u c h l o n g e r. ”
Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R K O N A : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n I a m …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n I a m s o r r y.

T h e n t h e n e x t o n e is ( A f r i c a n

word).
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i s w h y a r e y o u q u i e t?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s e n d i n g t h a t m e s s a g e …
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To M r M a h l a n g u .
M R K O N A : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n h is r e s p o n s e - j u s t s o t h a t w e g e t t h is
c le a r, b e c a u s e th e y a r e c u t a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a b i t d i ff ic u l t t o f o ll o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H i s r e s p o n s e is o v e r th e p a g e 1 8 in f u l l. T h a t
is w h e r e h e s a y s :
“ Te ll h i m t h a t is a l l y o u c a n o ff e r. ”
Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To w h ic h y o u r e s p o n d e d :
“ W il l d o m y c h i e f .

T h a n k s f o r g u id a n c e .

Have a

g r e a t d a y. ”
10

M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e c a n t h e n j u s t g o t o p a g e 1 5 o f D D 1 7 ,
b e c a u s e a b o v e y o u r s i g n a t u r e th e r e Mr K o n a is w r i t t e n :
“ R e q u e s t e d a n d a p p r o v e d b y. ”
Do you see that?
M R K O N A : Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u t h e r e q u e s t o r f o r t h is s u b m is s i o n ?
M R K O N A : R e m e m b e r a d v o c a t e I s a id t o y o u e a r l ie r o n t h e y c a m e to
me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MR KONA:

Ye s a n d I s a i d t o t h e m t h e n I f o r w a r d e d t h e m t o t h e B A C

people.

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R K O N A : To s a y g o a n d t a lk t o t h e s e - g o a n d t a lk t o t h i s t e a m . S o I
c a n n o t c o m e in a n d - a n d b a s ic a l ly d o a l l - a l l t h e w o r k th a t n e e d s to b e
done.

M in d y o u i n m y d e le g a ti o n a u t h o r i ty my d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i t y

g o e s u p t o 1 0 0 m i ll i o n .

T h a t is m y d e le g a t io n o f a u t h o r it y.

I can go

a n d b u y - I c o u ld h a v e a s w e ll h a d g o n e t o - t o s p e n d u p t o 1 0 0 m i ll io n
o n e i t h e r p r o c u r i n g t h e s e t h i n g s o r - o r p r o c u r in g c o n s u l t a n c y s t u ff.
U p t o 1 0 0 m i ll i o n .
a u t h o r i ty.
10

Th a t i s th e le v e l o f m y d e le g a te - d e le g a ti o n o f

H o w e v e r, I s a i d , g o t o t h e u s e r s b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e p e o p le

t h a t u s e th e p a p e r s , t h e s e a r e p e o p l e t h a t p u t th e m o n t h e f lo o r a n d
m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u a g r e e w i t h t h e m , t h a t w a s m y c o m m u n i c a t io n w i th
them yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o i s it a c c u r a t e t o r e fl e c t y o u a s b o th th e

r e q u e s t e r a n d th e a p p r o v e r ?
MR KONA:

I w o u l d – I m e a n , w h e n p e o p le c o m e t o y o u y e s a n d t h e n

y o u s a y g o a n d d o i t, I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r I’ m t h e o n e w h o ’s r e q u e s ti n g
b e c a u s e t h e y a r e th e o n e s w h o a r e a c t u a l ly r e q u e s t i n g th e m s e lv e s b u t
b e c a u s e I’ m t h e f a c e n o w o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n t h e y c o m e to m e .
O r d in a r ily, m a y b e th e y w o u l d h a v e g o n e d ir e c t ly t o a n y b o d y w h o w a s
20

t h e r e p r i o r t o m e o r t o a n y b o d y e ls e w h o w a s th e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir j u s t b e f o r e w e c lo s e th e r e w a s a n is s u e
in Mr K o n a ’s p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e w h e r e I a s k e d h i m a b o u t a n i n t e r a c ti o n
w i t h th e C o m m i s s i o n w h e r e t h e r e h a d b e e n a n o ffe r fo r h i m t o m e e t
w i t h th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d h e i n d ic a te d t h a t h e d i d n ’ t h a v e a r e c o l l e c ti o n
o f i t.

W e d o h a v e t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , I d o n ’ t p r o p o s e t o t a k e th e

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
matter further but it is correspondence on the 2nd of October 2019
w h e r e h is t h e n a tt o r n e y s , I h a v e i t M r K u k u la i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R K O N A : T h a t’s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R e s p o n d s t o d e c li n e t h e o ff e r o f th e m e e t in g

b u t I w il l m a k e i t a v a i la b l e to M r K o n a i f h e ’d l ik e t o t a k e a m o m e n t
on…[intervenes].
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t’s j o g y o u r m e m o r y.
M R K O N A : W e ll I k n o w M r K u k u l a i s … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u – d o e s t h a t r e m i n d y o u o f s o m e th in g y o u
10

know or not?
M R K O N A : C h a ir y o u s e e , I’ m s it t in g h e r e to d a y a n d t h e is s u e w i th t h e
C o m m i s s i o n b e c a m e a n is s u e o f l e g a l c o s ts b e c a u s e I ’ m c o m in g h e r e
t o d a y w i t h o u t a n y l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o k a y o r n o l e g a l a d v ic e o k a y,
b e c a u s e I h a v e s o m e o n e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e to o e x p e n s iv e , l e t ’s te ll t h e tr u th [ la u g h t e r ] .
MR KONA:

C h a ir s o my is s u e w a s t h a t o k a y, i f t h e C o m m i s s i o n w a n ts

t o s e e m e , I’ v e g o t n o t h i n g t o h i d e a n d i t ’s f o r m e t o t a lk , i t ’s u p t o t h e
C o m m i s s i o n to d e t e r m i n e w h a t t h e y d e t e r m i n e , f o r m e , I ’ m j u s t g i v i n g a
f a c t o f e v e n ts y o u k n o w, w h a t tr a n s p ir e d d u r in g t h a t a g e – d u r in g my
20

d a y s w h e n I w a s w o r k in g a s t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ffic e r. H o w e v e r, a t t h e
ti m e K u k u l a w a s s t il l m y a t t o r n e y a n d w e e n q u ir e d fr o m t h e C o m m is s i o n
t o s a y, c a n t h e C o m m i s s io n p a y th e l e g a l c o s ts a n d t h e c o m m i s s i o n , I
t h i n k a t t h e t i m e w r o t e b a c k a n d s a i d t h e y ’ r e n o t i n a p o s i t io n t o p a y f o r
t h e l e g a l c o s ts I m u s t g o to m y o l d e m p lo y e r to p a y a n d w h e n w e w e n t
t o S A A t h e y – i t w a s u p a n d d o w n , w e w e r e g o in g u p a n d d o w n a n d I

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
t h i n k w h e n I h a d t o s u b m i t t h e n t h e r e w a s a n is s u e o f h a v i n g t o s u b m i t
m y a ffi d a v i t t h e n I s a y t o th e la w y e r s o k a y, i n th e m e a n ti m e y o u g o i n
a n d s u b m i t a n d d e a l w it h t h e s e o t h e r m a t t e r s t h a t a r e s ti ll t h e r e t h e n
w h il s t – t h e n I w il l c o v e r t h e c o s t s w h i ls t w e a r e s ti ll w a i ti n g f o r t h e
a ir li n e to c o m e . O b v i o u s ly w e k n o w w h e r e S A A’s f in a n c i a l s it u a ti o n is
n o w, t h e y s a i d t h e y a r e n o t g o in g t o b e a b l e t o c o v e r m y c o s ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t w h a t w e a r e tr y in g to e s t a b li s h i s a s i m p l e

p o i n t , d o y o u h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f th e l e t te r o r c o m m u n i c a t io n t h a t s a id
y o u a r e d e c li n i n g t h e i n v i ta t io n fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m o r
10

in v e s t i g a t o r s t h a t y o u … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
MR KONA:

C h a ir I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w I w o u l d h a v e d e c l i n e d b e c a u s e I

s u b m i tt e d a n a ffi d a v i t a n d w e a p o l o g i s e d f o r n o t s u b m i t ti n g t h e
a ffi d a v i t . W e s u b m i tt e d t h e a ff id a v i t a n d w e r e s p o n d e d t o o t h e r is s u e s
t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n r a is e d t h a t w e r e b e i n g a s k e d o f u s … . [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u d i d n o t d e c li n e ?

M R K O N A : N o , w e d id n o t d e c li n e C h a i r, th e o n ly is s u e th a t I c a n
c le a r ly r e m e m b e r w a s t h e is s u e o f f in a n c in g t h e l e g a l c o s ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b e c a u s e I t h in k t h e p o s i ti o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n th a t
t h e C o m m i s s i o n w o u ld h a v e b e e n s a y i n g , w e h a v e l a w y e r s w h o c a n
20

t a k e a s t a t e m e n t fr o m y o u , c o n s u l t w it h y o u a n d h e l p p r e p a r e a n
a ffi d a v i t f r o m y o u , y o u w o n ’ t b e c h a r g e d i f w e d o it , w e a r e i n v i t in g y o u
t o t a k e a d v a n ta g e o f t h a t , I t h i n k t h a t ’s w h a t t h e l e t t e r w a s d e c li n i n g .
M R K O N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Chair if I may just be permitted to make it

a v a i la b le t o M r K o n a .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , j a p l e a s e d o t h a t j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f I m a y j u s t b e g le a v e to h a n d u p a
c o p y t o y o u , C h a ir I j u s t s u g g e s t t h a t w e p u t i t, f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s ,
p o s s i b ly p a g i n a te d a t t h e la s t p a g e o f E x h i b i t D D 1 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w o u ld m a k e i t p a g i n a te d p a g e 1 9 , I n o t e
t h a t in a c o s t s a v i n g e x e r c i s e i t’s b e e n p r i n t e d o n b o t h s id e s o f t h e
page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h is n o t o u r u s u a l … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h I d o n ’ t li k e v e r y m u c h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , w e ’ ll e n s u r e th a t y o u r c o p y h a s th e t w o
s id e s s e p a r a t e ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o i t ’s fi n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir j u s t t o l o c a t e i t i n t i m e , Mr K o n a i s

a b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t , h e s u b m it t e d h is a ff id a v i t i n r e s p o n s e t o M s M z i m e l a
a n d Ms C o e tz e e ’s e v id e n c e i n J u ly o f 2 0 1 9 a n d h e h a d n o t e n g a g e d
w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n u n t il t h a t p o in t . I t w a s t h e r e a f te r th a t t h e r e w e r e
m a t t e r s t h a t n e e d e d t o b e f o l l o w e d u p , t h e s o r ts o f m a t te r s th a t h a v e
20

b e e n e x p l o r e d to d a y i n t h e e v i d e n c e w i th M r K o n a b u t i t’s t h e a p p r o a c h
o f t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s le g a l t e a m a n d in v e s t i g a t o r s o n r e c e i p t o f
a ffi d a v i ts

to

in v e s t i g a t e

fu r t h e r.

So

what

happens

in

t h is

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e is t h a t o n t h e 2 5 t h o f S e p t e m b e r t h e r e is a n e m a il fr o m
o n e o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s in v e s ti g a t o r s t o M r K o n a ’s a tt o r n e y a n d i t
says,

Page 158 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
“Dear

Mr

K u k u la ,

our

telecom

e a r li e r

today

serves

as

r e fe r e n c e . Th e C o m m i s s i o n w o u ld li k e t o h a v e a m e e t i n g w i t h
M r K o n a t o fo ll o w u p o n s o m e a s p e c t s h e d e a ls w it h in h i s
a ffi d a v i t p r o v i d e d t o t h e C o m m is s i o n .

Please arrange with

h i m a n d p r o v i d e u s w i t h p r o p o s e d s u it a b l e d a t e s ” .
S o t h e e n g a g e m e n ts w e r e a ft e r r e c e i p t o f a f ir s t a ffi d a v it b u t
a n i n d ic a ti o n th a t t h e C o m m i s s io n h a d f u r th e r m a t t e r s to e n g a g e M r
K o n a o n . T h e r e s p o n s e t o th a t c a m e t h e s a m e d a y, ju s t a b o v e it fr o m
K u k u la ,
“ D e a r S ir, w e c o n fir m r e c e i p t o f y o u r e m a i l a n d c o n f ir m t h a t

10

we

w i ll

revert

once

our

c l ie n t

has

p r o v id e d

us

w i th

in s t r u c t i o n s t h e r e i n ” ,
A n d th e n t h e fi n a l w o r d o n t h i s a p p e a r s a b o v e t h a t , i t ’s a n
e m a i l o f t h e 2 n d o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 9 , I ’ m a t p a g e 1 9 o f E x h i b i t D D 1 7 , i t ’s a n
e m a i l fr o m M r K u k u l a t o t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s i n v e s t ig a t o r, M r M a d l a l a a n d
it s a y s ,
“ D e a r S ir, f o ll o w i n g e n q u i r i e s w e r e i n s tr u c t e d t h a t n e i th e r t h e
C o m m i s s i o n o r S A A a r e p r e p a r e d t o p a y f o r Mr K o n a ’s le g a l
f e e s i n r e s p e c t o f r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s i o n . I n
20

t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s o u r c li e n t is n o t w ill in g to in c u r f u r t h e r
le g a l c o s ts in h is e n g a g e m e n t s w i t h t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d m u s t
d e c l in e th e p r o p o s e d m e e t in g ” ,
M r K o n a i n y o u r a n s w e r p r e v i o u s ly y o u s a i d y o u w e r e n ’ t a w a r e
o f a d e c l in in g o f a m e e ti n g , d o e s t h i s r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y ?
M R K O N A : N o o n th e is s u e – th e o n ly is s u e th a t w e ’ r e d e a l i n g – t h a t I

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
d e a lt w i t h w a s th e is s u e o f m o n e y j a t o c o m e a n d s a y t h e n , h o w d o I
d e a l th e n w i t h m y l e g a l c o s t s a t t h e m o m e n t b e c a u s e I’ m s t il l p a y i n g f o r
t h o s e o t h e r l e g a l c o s ts th a t o n e in c u r r e d a n d I s a i d , o k a y t h a t is – i t i s
w h a t i t i s , y o u k n o w. I f I d o n ’ t h a v e l e g a l a d v i c e , t h e n h o w d o I p r o c e e d
– how do I then proceed going forward.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir t h o s e a r e o u r q u e s t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , Mr K o n a ju s t tw o i s s u e s , h o w w a s TN A

b e i n g tr e a t e d d i ff e r e n t ly fr o m o th e r n e w s p a p e r s a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e
p o s i ti o n ? W a s i t t h a t t h e r e w a s n o a g r e e m e n t a s y e t b e t w e e n i ts e l f a n d
10

S A A o r h o w w e r e t h e s e o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s tr e a t e d , h o w w a s T N A
tr e a t e d , w h a t w e r e t h e y t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n t h e y s a i d t h e y w e r e n o t
b e i n g tr e a t e d i n t h e s a m e w a y a s t h e o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s ?
MR KONA:

C h a ir m y h u m b l e u n d e r s ta n d i n g a t t h e t i m e w a s m o r e a n

is s u e o f v o lu m e s t h a t t h e o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s w e r e g e t ti n g m o r e v o lu m e s
t h a n t h e m b u t i t w a s m o r e th a n a n is s u e o f r e a d e r s h i p a n d c u s t o m e r
p r e f e r e n c e a n d h e n c e t h a t ’s w h y I s a i d , le t th e s e p e o p l e r u n a n d i f t h e y
c a n c o m e b a c k a n d j u s t i fy a n d s a y, t h e c u s t o m e r s p r e fe r t h i s , t h e n w h y
s h o u l d t h e y n o t b e tr e a t e d a s e q u a l a s e v e r y b o d y e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld t h a t b e w h a t th e y t o l d y o u , n a m e ly M r N a z e e m
20

H o w a o r … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
M R K O N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s w h a t h e to l d y o u ?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o t h e y w a n te d to – t h e y w e r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e

numbers, when it comes to the copies of the newspaper that you buy

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
a r e m u c h – a r e l o w e r t h a n th e n u m b e r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
MR KONA: Than the numbers yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th a t w a s a c t u a l ly c o r r e c t ?
M R K O N A : C h a ir w h e n I tr ie d t o e n q u ir e w i t h t h e o p e r a ti o n a l s ta ff t h e
v ie w w a s th a t , b u t it ’s n o t – i t’s a n a u d it is s u e a n d a c u s to m e r
p r e f e r e n c e t h e n I s a id b u t s o r t o u t w h a t i s t h e m a r k e t s a y i n g b e c a u s e
w h e n w e ’ r e d o in g t h e s e t h i n g s w e d o n ’ t d o i t f o r o u r s e lv e s , w e d o i t f o r
t h e m a r k e t . I f t h e r e ’s a m a r k e t i n t e r e s t th e n w e m o v e b e c a u s e w e
s a ti s f y a n e e d t h a t is o u t t h e r e a n d t h a t w a s m y t a k e a n d I ’ m n o t in a
10

p o s i ti o n t o s i t a n d e v e n h a v e a d is c u s s i o n o f w h a t t h e m a r k e t n e e d s o r
w h a t t h e m a r k e t w a n ts a n d h o w e v e r, s i t w i t h t h e s e g u y s a n d i f i t ’s t h e r e
if y o u g u y s c a n f i n d e a c h o th e r t h e n w e w il l d o i t i f n o t th e n w e d o n ’ t d o
it b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t t h e m a r k e t – t h e s e c t o r i n t h e s p e c i fi c
a r e a w h a t g o e s o n , I ’ m n o t q u a li fi e d e n o u g h t o ta lk a s a n e x p e r t.
CHAIRPERSON: Would I be correct then to say that at the time that Mr
H o w a to ld y o u a b o u t t h is a l l e g e d d i ffe r e n t tr e a t m e n t y o u d id n ’t k n o w
w h e t h e r t h a t w a s – t h a t c l a i m w a s c o r r e c t, w a s t r u e , y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w ?
MR KONA:

H e n c e C h a ir, th a t ’s w h y I s a y l e t th e m e n g a g e w it h t h e

p e o p l e o t h e r w is e , o r d i n a r il y w h a t I w o u l d h a v e d o n e w i t h m y d e l e g a ti o n
20

o f a u t h o r i ty I w o u l d h a v e ju s t g o n e t o b u y t h e p a p e r s a n d s a y o r d e r
s o m e m o r e p a p e r s b u t I’ m n o t i n a p o s it i o n t o s i t a n d a d j u d ic a t e th o s e
is s u e s j a .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e m e m o t h a t w e l o o k e d a t e a r li e r o n , y o u

r e m e m b e r t h e m e m o t h a t M s H o f m e y r … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t’s p a g e 1 3 C h a ir.

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
CHAIRPERSON: 30?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 3 y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a t m e m o p a g e 1 3 , w a s t h a t t h e – w a s t h a t

m e m o s e n t to y o u b y t h e r e le v a n t t e a m p u r s u a n t t o y o u r s e n d in g Mr
H o w a to t h a t t e a m t o s a y, g o a n d t a lk t o th e m ?
M R K O N A : Ye s t h e y h a d a d o c u m e n t w h e r e t h e y w e r e a l r e a d y g e t t in g
p a p e r s C h a ir b u t i t w a s n o t s ig n e d s o I s a i d , l e t’s m a k e s u r e th a t a l l o u r
d o c u m e n ts a r e c o m p l i a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

M R K O N A : S o th e n w h e n t h is p a p e r c a m e t h e n t h a t ’s w h e n I a s s u m e d
t h e y h a d f o u n d e a c h o t h e r a n d I d i d n o t s e e a n y th i n g u n t o w a r d , a t t h e
ti m e I d id n ’t e v e n k n o w w h o t h e s h a r e h o l d e r s f o r T N A w e r e C h a ir I j u s t
s a i d , p l e a s e ju s t o r d i n a r y n e w s p a p e r s u p p l ie r s j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w h a t I fi n d in t e r e s ti n g i s t h a t M r H o w a c o m e s t o
y o u a n d s e e k s to j u s ti fy h is r e q u e s t s fo r q u i t e a d r a s tic i n c r e a s e i n t h e
n u m b e r o f c o p i e s t h a t S A A m u s t b u y fr o m th e m o n th e b a s i s o f s o m e
a l le g e d d i ff e r e n t tr e a t m e n t b u t th e m e m o th a t c o m e s t o y o u a f te r y o u
h a v e s e n t h i m t o t h i s u n it , s a y s n o th i n g a b o u t a n y i ll tr e a t m e n t a s I
r e a d it , I m a y h a v e m i s s e d s o m e t h i n g , is t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t o o ?

20

M R K O N A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r r e m e m b e r th a t , t h a t’s w h a t h e s a id t o
m e b u t I to ld h i m to g o t o th e a d ju d ic a ti o n p e o p l e a n d d e a l w i t h th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O N A : T h e y a r e t h e o n e t h a t d e a l w i t h t h e s e is s u e s ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , b u t w e a g r e e t h a t th e m e m o d o e s n ’ t r e f e r t o t h a t
c la i m a n y m o r e ?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n y o u s a id t h a t th is m o t iv a t i o n , y o u t h o u g h t

that it did give a reason, I must confess, I don’t see any reason here.
L e t ’s r e a d i t, r e m e m b e r w e ’r e l o o k i n g fo r a r e a s o n t h a t w o u l d j u s ti fy
w h y th e v o lu m e s , th e n u m b e r o f c o p ie s o f t h e n e w s p a p e r y o u – S A A
w a s g o i n g t o b u y w a s g o in g t o b e d o u b l e d o k a y, m o r e th a n d o u b le d
m a y b e , t h e m o tiv a ti o n is ,
“ S A A w i ll b e i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e a d d i ti o n a l c o p i e s fo r a p e r i o d o f
1 2 m o n t h s w h il e S A A is e v a l u a ti n g t h e c u r r e n t u s a g e a n d
10

scope

in

s u p p ly in g o u r c u s t o m e r s w i th p u b li c a t io n s ” ,
I d o n ’ t s e e a n y th in g t h e r e i n t h a t s e n t e n c e t h a t s a y s , w h i le , a t
t h is s t a g e it ’s f in e to g e t 2 0 0 0 h e r e i s a r e a s o n w h y w e s h o u ld d o u b l e .
Is t h e r e a n y t h in g w r o n g w i t h m y r e a d in g o f th is ?
M R K O N A : R e m e m b e r, C h a ir, th e r e w a s n o , w h a t is t h e w o r d , a u d i te d
v ie w o f h o w t h e m a r k e t – o f h o w t h e m a r k e t is w o r k in g , w h e n w e a r e
r e a d in g – t h e s e m a r k e t p e o p l e – w h e n th e s e n e w s p a p e r p e o p l e r e l e a s e
t h e ir p u b li c a t io n fi g u r e s , t h e y t e l l y o u t h a t w e ’ r e u s i n g , s o m a n y p e o p le
a r e t a k i n g t h e p a p e r s a n d s o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e r e a d e r s h i p is o f a
s p e c i f ic n e w s p a p e r s a n d t h a t’s h o w y o u m e a s u r e o u t h o w p o p u l a r o r

20

h o w a c c e p t a b l e i n t h e m a r k e t a s p e c i f ic n e w s p a p e r is . S o w it h th e s e
g u y s t h e y w e r e s t il l a n e w n e w s p a p e r a n d t h a t w a s n o t th e r e a t t h e
ti m e , s o … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

No I accept that, I want you to leave out whatever

r e a s o n o u t s i d e o f t h e m e m o t h a t y o u m a y h a v e t h o u g h t e x is ts t o j u s ti f y,
I’ m j u s t a s k i n g a b o u t t h is o n e . Ar e w e n o t a g r e e d t h a t th is d o e s n ’ t g iv e

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
a r e a s o n f o r d o u b li n g t h e n u m b e r o f c o p i e s , m a y b e t h e r e i s a r e a s o n
s o m e w h e r e w h ic h w a s n o t s t a te d b u t a r e w e n o t a g r e e d t h a t t h is
d o e s n ’t g i v e t h e r e a s o n ?
MR KONA:

C h a i r e v e r y o n e , w h e n w e s t a r t lo o k in g i n h i n d s i g h t a n d

t h a t ’s th e g o o d t h i n g a b o u t h in d s ig h t w h e n y o u s t a r t l o o k i n g in
h i n d s i g h t t h e n y o u m ig h t t a k e a d i ff e r e n t v i e w, j a b u t I m e a n , a t t h e
ti m e w h e n I m a d e t h e d e c is io n I w a s c o m f o r ta b l e t h a t t h i s w a s a g o o d
reason for me.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s b u t I j u s t w a n t y o u t o a p p r e c i a t e t h e d is t in c t i o n

t h a t I’ m m a k in g .
MR KONA: Sure I hear you.
CHAIRPERSON:

N a m e ly y o u m i g h t h a v e h a d a r e a s o n w h i c h w a s

o p e r a ti n g i n y o u r m in d w h y y o u t h o u g h t i n c r e a s i n g t h e n u m b e r o f
c o p i e s w a s j u s ti f ie d .
M R K O N A : I h e a r y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ll I ’ m s i m p l y s a y in g is , t h e m e m o d o e s n ’t s e e m
to contain any such reason, you accept that?
M R K O N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e c o n d l y w h e n M r H o w a c a m e to y o u a n d c o m p l a i n e d
20

t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t b e in g tr e a t e d li k e th e o th e r n e w s p a p e r s , my
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e is , i s t h a t y o u h a d n o i s s u e w i th
s t a y in g w it h t h e s a m e n u m b e r o f c o p i e s t h a t y o u w e r e b u y in g fr o m t h e m
as SAA but if you were given – if the team to whom you referred him
c a m e b a c k a n d s a i d , y e s t h e r e is a n e e d t h e n y o u w o u ld l o o k a t t h a t.
Is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ?

Page 164 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
M R K O N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: It is?
M R K O N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t n o w t h e t e a m c o m e s b a c k o n e , t h e y d o n ’ t

g iv e a r e a s o n t h a t j u s t if i e s t h e d o u b l in g t h e n u m b e r, t w o ,

the GM

o p e r a ti o n s s a y s , a c t u a l ly t h e r e ’s n o b u d g e t i n o p e r a ti o n s fo r th is a n d
t h is t h i n g f a l ls u n d e r o p e r a ti o n s b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s y o u s e e m t o g o o u t o f
y o u r w a y, a n d y o u m u s t f e e l fr e e to s a y y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g o u t o f y o u r
w a y, I’ ll g i v e y o u a c h a n c e , y o u t o s a y lo o k , w e w i ll d o A , B , C , D i n – I
10

d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r i n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts a n d t h e r e f o r e th e r e w il l b e
s o m e m o n e y s o w e w i ll – I w i ll a p p r o v e th i s b u t I w a n t t o b e f a ir t o y o u ,
I s e e y o u w a n t t o c o m m e n t , c o m m e n t o n t h is . I t s e e m s t o m e l ik e y o u
a r e g o i n g o u t o f y o u r w a y, m a y y o u ’r e n o t, I w a n t y o u t o b e a b l e to s a y,
n o I ’ m n o t a n d th is w a s t h e p o s i ti o n .
MR KONA:

C h a ir I th in k w i t h r e s p e c t t o t h is w h o l e th in g I ’ m j u s t

p u t t in g i t a s p la in ly a s i t i s , ja fr o m – t h e n u m b e r s t h a t a r e i n v o lv e d I
w o u ld – i t ’s n o t s o m e t h i n g th a t I w o u l d g o o u t o f m y w a y t o d e a l w it h
t h is , I t h in k i t is c l e a r fr o m m y c o m m u n i c a ti o n w i t h M a h l a n g u , t h a t ’s
w h y I s a y y o u c a n h a v e th e s m s ’s t h a t I r e a ll y d i d n o t c a r e a b o u t t h is
20

t h i n g , w h e th e r t h is t h i n g w a s d o n e o r i t w a s n o t d o n e , I w a s n o t f o r c in g
e v e r y b o d y to d o i t a n d m y v i e w w a s t h a t i f i t c a n b e d o n e l e t i t b e d o n e
if i t c a n ’ t b e d o n e , th e n w e ’r e n o t g o i n g t o d o i t . Tw o , i t w a s a n i s s u e
o f s a y in g , i f t h e b u d g e t – I k n e w w h e r e t h e b u d g e t w a s g o i n g to s it a n d
I k n e w a l l th e i n i ti a ti v e s th a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o e m b a r k .

So if the

p e o p l e – i f t h e p e o p le c a m e a n d s a y t h i s t h i n g c a n w o r k t h e n w e w o r k

Page 165 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
it , i f th e y c o m e a n d s a y it c a n n o t w o r k t h e n i t w o n ’ t w o r k .

Now

o b v i o u s l y I k n o w fr o m w h e r e I s it to d a y t h a t b e c a u s e u n f o r tu n a t e ly t h i s
is a G u p t a n e w s p a p e r t h e n i t b e c o m e s a b i t o f a n a n o m a ly t o d o i t t o
c o m e a n d s a y w h y w o u l d y o u h a v e g iv e n a G u p t a n e w s p a p e r.

At the

ti m e w h e n I w a s e v e n d o in g th is th i n g I w a s n o t e v e n a w a r e , C h a ir, th a t
t h is i s a G u p t a n e w s p a p e r, I d i d n ’ t e v e n – t h e r e w a s n o t e v e n a
p e r s o n a l b e n e f it i f e v e r e v e n if I w a n t e d a p e r s o n a l b e n e f it fr o m g e t ti n g
– f r o m d o in g t h is t h i n g , I d i d n o t k n o w.

A ll I k n e w w a s th e r e ’s a

n e w s p a p e r a n d t h e s e g u y s ju s t w a n t a n a d d it i o n a l – to p u t a d d i ti o n a l
10

s u p p ly o n t h e p l a n e . S o f o r m e t o h a v e m a d e a n a d d it i o n a l R 2 m il li o n
a d d it i o n a l e x p e n s e o n s o m e th i n g , w h ic h t h e m o n ie s , w e w e r e r e l e a s in g
b i ll io n s in t e r m s o f s p e n d i n g i t’s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t w o u l d h a v e a ff e c te d
my decision making process in terms of the numbers that are there. As
lo n g a s th e p e o p l e in s u p p l y c h a i n c o m e a n d s a y, n o w e c a n p u t th e
a d d it i o n a l – w e c a n p u t th e a d d it i o n a l n e w s p a p e r. N o w in h in d s ig h t a n d
h e n c e t h a t ’s w h y I s a i d e a r l ie r o n C h a ir, t h a t in h i n d s ig h t e v e r y b o d y
s i ts , h a d I k n o w n th is is a G u p t a n e w s p a p e r, I w o u l d h a v e a c t e d
d i ff e r e n t ly, I w o u l d h a v e e v e n to l d th e m n o t t o e v e n c o m e a n d t a lk to
m e b e c a u s e I w a n t e d n o th in g to d o w i t h th e s e p e o p l e .

20

In t h e ir o w n

ti m e , w h e n t h is d o c u m e n t is b e in g s i g n e d a t th e ti m e th e y w o u ld h a v e
a lr e a d y m a d e a d e c is io n t h a t m y [ in d is t in c t] I ’ m o n w i t h i n t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n .

S o i t ’s – a t th e t i m e w h e n I’ m m a k i n g t h is d e c i s i o n i t ’s

g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h G u p ta ’s f o r m e t h i s i s j u s t a n e w s p a p e r t h a t i s
there

and

t h a t’s

my

own

humble

m a t t e r … . [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

Page 166 of 204

opinion

Chair

on

this

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e o n l y o t h e r q u e s ti o n f o r m e i s , w h a t b e n e fi t w a s

seen for SAA in adding newspapers?
MR KONA:

C h a ir in – w h e n y o u a r e h a v in g a – w h e n y o u h a v e a n

a ir li n e it i s a l w a y s t h e b e s t t h i n g to h a v e m u l ti p l e r e a d e r s h i p s f o r y o u r
p a s s e n g e r s , y o u d o n ’ t w a n t to l i m i t y o u r p a s s e n g e r s i n te r m s o f w h a t
they read.

In f a c t w h e n I l o o k a t w h a t w e s p e n d a n d w h a t th e o th e r

in t e r n a t io n a l a ir l in e s s p e n d i f y o u a r e fl o w n o n E m i r a te s y o u ’l l s e e t h a t
E m i r a t e s h a s a m u c h b r o a d e r s e t o f n e w s p a p e r s a n d m a g a z i n e s fo r y o u
t o g o t h r o u g h a n d h e n c e t h a t’s w h y o n e w a s j u s t l o o k i n g a t g iv i n g –
10

g iv e t h e c u s t o m e r s m u c h b r o a d e r t h in g to r e a d b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e w e
c o u l d n o t e v e n – o u r m a r k e t s p e n d h a d b e e n r e d u c e d d r a s t ic a ll y.

So

w h a t w e w e r e tr y in g to d o , w e w e r e tr y in g to lo o k a t a d d i n g a n y
a d d it i o n a l in i ti a tiv e s t h a t y o u c a n a t l e a s t g iv e t h e c u s to m e r a l it t le
c h o ic e t h a t y o u c a n g iv e t h e c u s t o m e r a li t tl e c h o ic e t h a t t h e c u s to m e r
c a n h a v e w h e n h e ’s f ly in g o u t th e r e in s t e a d o f h i m h a v i n g , e i t h e r a
B u s i n e s s D a y, a n d th a t ’s it o r t h e S t a r a n d t h a t ’s i t . L e t h i m c h o o s e t h e
S t a r, l e t h i m c h o o s e t h is , le t m e c h o o s e a n o th e r o n e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

And

customer

here

you

passengers?
20

M R K O N A : To t h e p a s s e n g e r s , t h a t’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Not to TNA?
MR KONA: Not to TNA no.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th in g a r i s i n g ?

Page 167 of 204

are

referring

to

the

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h i n g a r is i n g .

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r K o n a f o r c o m i n g to g i v e

e v i d e n c e , i f w e n e e d y o u w e ’ ll a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y
m u c h a n d I h o p e t h a t w e h a v e n ’ t p r e j u d ic e d y o u m u c h i n t e r m s o f y o u r
m e d i c a t io n a n d y o u r s o n , th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , y o u a r e e x c u s e d , w e
a p p r e c ia t e th e fa c t t h a t y o u m a d e y o u r s e l f a v a i la b le f o r l o n g e r.
M R K O N A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ms H o f m e y r w e ’r e a t t w e n ty o n e m i n u te s
p a s t t w o , i t l o o k s l ik e w e m a y h a v e t o s i t b e y o n d 4 o ’c l o c k is t h a t r ig h t ?
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f w e r e t u r n s o r t o f t w e n t y p a s t t h r e e , w e
m a y w a n t t o g e t a t l e a s t a b i t o f th e e v id e n c e o f t h e n e x t w i t n e s s
u n d e r w a y s o m a y b e ti ll h a l f p a s t fo u r, w e c a n c h e c k a r r a n g e m e n t a n d
w h e t h e r t h a t ’s f e a s i b le .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h e n e x t w i tn e s s w ill b e q u i t e lo n g , is th a t

r ig h t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d s h e w i ll c e r ta i n ly g o o v e r t o t o m o r r o w,
it ’s q u i t e a d e t a i l e d t e s ti m o n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , le t ’s a d jo u r n f o r l u n c h n o w a n d th e n w e
w i ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t t h r e e s o w e m i g h t t a k e a n h o u r, I w i ll b e a l i tt l e
20

fl e x ib l e i f i t s u i ts e v e r y b o d y s o t h a t w e g o s o m e w a y i n r e g a r d t o h e r
e v i d e n c e b e fo r e w e a d j o u r n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

Page 168 of 204

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t u s c o n t in u e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir, w e a r e a b o u t to

c o m m e n c e t h e s e c o n d i n v e s t ig a ti o n a r e a t h a t w i ll b e p r e s e n t e d i n th is
a s c e n s io n o f a v i a ti o n e v i d e n c e . W h a t I p r o p o s e t o d o is s k e tc h ju s t b y
w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d w h a t t h is a r e a w il l fo c u s o n .

A n d th e n w i t h y o u r

le a v e C h a ir t o d e a l w i t h a n u m b e r o f p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c ts .

So that we

c a n i n a s e n s e g e t t h o s e o u t o f t h e w a y a n d t h e n l e t t h e e v i d e n c e fl o w.
I f p r o c e d u r a l is s u e s a r i s e d a y t o d a y, w e w il l o f c o u r s e d r a w t h e m to
y o u r a t t e n t io n . B u t m y p r o p o s a l is t h a t w e e n d e a v o u r to d e a l b o t h w i t h
10

t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c t s t h is a f te r n o o n .
C h a ir, t h e s e c o n d a r e a o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n in v o l v e s S o u th A f r i c a n
A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l . S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l is a w h o l ly o w n e d
s u b s i d ia r y o f S A A a n d y o u w il l h e a r w it n e s s e s a n d p r o b a b l y I w o u l d d o
it a s w e l l, r e f e r r in g t o i t a s S A AT b e c a u s e th a t i s th e n a m e b y w h i c h i t
is c o m m o n ly k n o w n . A n d w h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n h a s fo c u s e d o n is t w o
tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t S A AT e n t e r e d in t o i n 2 0 1 6 . T h e f ir s t o f t h o s e r e l a t e s
t o c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t s e r v ic e s t h a t S A AT r e q u ir e s i n o r d e r t o r e p a i r
a n d m a in t a i n a ir c r a f t p a r t s .
S t a r ti n g in 2 0 1 4 t o 2 0 1 6 S A AT e m b a r k e d i n n o le s s t h a n 5

20

v a r io u s te n d e r s i n o r d e r t o a w a r d t h e s e s e r v ic e s to a s u c c e s s fu l b id d e r.
I t w a s e v e n t u a l ly a w a r d e d i n m i d - 2 0 1 6 t o a jo i n t v e n t u r e o f a l o c a l
c o m p a n y c a ll e d J M Av ia t io n a n d a U n i t e d S ta t e s c o m p a n y c a ll e d A A R
S u p p ly C h a in In c .

T h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t is o v e r m o r e th a n 1 .2

b i ll io n r a n d a n d i n t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e J V p a r t n e r s J M
Av i a ti o n e a r n s 1 0 % - 5 % , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , o n a l l i n v o i c e s r a is e d u n d e r

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
t h e c o n tr a c t. A n d t h e c o n tr a c t is fo r 5 y e a r s .
T h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n a p p e a r s t o i n d i c a t e th a t t h e jo i n t v e n t u r e o f
A A R a n d J M Av i a t io n o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n d i s q u a l i fi e d f r o m t h e t e n d e r
process.

A n d th is is s o b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i th t h e

h e a d o f S A AT p r o c u r e m e n t , a s k i n g f o r i n p u t o n t h e ir b i d s u b m is s i o n
p r i o r t o i t b e in g s u b m i t te d a s w e ll a s o n t h e ir d r a f t J V a g r e e m e n t. T h e
in v e s t i g a t io n a ls o a p p e a r s t o i n d ic a te t h a t d e s p it e th e fa c t t h a t i t a u g h t
t o h a v e b e e n d i s q u a l i fi e d , i t w a s n o t , i t w e n t o n to b e a w a r d e d th e
c o n tr a c t. A n d t h e n to c o n c l u d e a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t s u b s ta n ti a lly r e d u c e
10

t h e o b li g a ti o n s i t h a d u n d e r t a k e n w h e n i t s u b m i t t e d it s b id . A l l o f t h e s e
w e r e t o t h e d e tr i m e n t u l t i m a te ly o f S A AT t h e c o n tr a c t in g p a r t y.
T h e C o m m i s s i o n w i ll h e a r e v i d e n c e fr o m a w it n e s s w h o s a y s
that she used to be the partner of this AAR US based company but was
la t e r d is c a r d e d f o r J M Av i a ti o n , t h e lo c a l c o m p a n y. A n d s h e w ill t e s t if y
t h a t w h e n s h e s t a r te d t o b e s q u e e z e d o u t o f t h e p a r t n e r s h i p , s h e w a s
p r i v y t o v a r i o u s c o r r u p t p l a n s o n t h e p a r t o f S A AT o ff ic ia ls .

The

e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll h e a r o v e r t h e n e x t fe w d a y s w il l a ls o r e l a te t o
v a r io u s m o n e y fl o w s a n d i d e n t i fy w h e r e S A AT o ff ic i a ls a p p e a r t o h a v e
r e c e i v e d p e r s o n a l b e n e f i ts d u r i n g t h e p r o c e s s o f d e c i s i o n m a k i n g a n d
20

c o n tr a c ti n g a f te r w a r d s .
C h a ir t h e s e c o n d tr a n s a c t io n r e l a t e s t o a c o n tr a c t th a t w a s
e n t e r e d in t o b e tw e e n S A A n o w a n d S w is s p o r t S o u t h A fr ic a . T h a t w a s a
c o n tr a c t t o p r o v i d e g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s o f t o S A A f o r 5 y e a r s .
And it was approved by the board of SAA in March 2016. There was no
t e n d e r p r o c e s s t h a t p r o c e e d e d th a t a w a r d o f th e 5 - y e a r c o n t r a c t fr o m

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
2 0 1 6 t o 2 0 2 1 a t l e a s t n o t in t h e le a d u p t o th a t p a r ti c u l a r d e c is i o n .
T h e r e w a s a p r i o r p r o c e s s t h a t w e h a v e a c t u a l ly h e a r d e v id e n c e o n
fr o m D r D a r w a b u t n o t h i n g t h a t p r e c e d e d t h e M a r c h 2 0 1 6 d e c i s i o n .
C h a ir t a c t o n t o t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s c o n c lu d e d b e t w e e n S A A
a n d S w is s p o r t w a s a c la u s e o f t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t p r o v id e d a s f o ll o w s ;
S w is s p o r t w a s to p r o c u r e o r a r r a n g e t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f a l l r e c e n tly
a c q u ir e d s u r p l u s S A AT G P U s .

Now I mu st just pause for a moment.

G P U s i s a ls o a n a c r o n y m t h a t y o u w i ll h e a r q u i t e a b i t a b o u t t h a t
r e l a t e s to g r o u n d h a n d l i n g u n i ts a n d y o u w i ll h e a r i n th e e v i d e n c e w h a t
10

t h e y d o . B u t w h a t t h e c l a u s e p r o v i d e d is t h a t S w is s p o r t w o u l d a c q u ir e
a l l r e c e n tl y a c q u ir e d S A AT G P U s a t t h e ir c u r r e n t ly b o o k v a lu e , fa ir
m a r k e t v a lu e o r s u c h o t h e r v a l u a t io n a s m a y b e m u tu a lly a g r e e d . A n d
o n c e t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A A a n d S w is s p o r t w a s c o n c lu d e d , S A AT
w a s t h e n c h a r g e d w i t h e n te r i n g i n to n e g o ti a ti o n s t o s e ll t h o s e G P U s
w h ic h t h e p r o v is io n o f t h e c o n t r a c t b e t w e e n S A A a n d S w is s p o r t h a d
in d i c a t e d w o u l d b e s o l d to S w is s p o r t .
B u t w h a t e n d e d u p h a p p e n in g w a s t h a t S A AT d i d n o t s e ll t h e
G P U s t o S w is s p o r t . I n s t e a d i t s o l d th e m t o J M Av ia t io n a n d it w a s t h e
s a m e J M Av i a ti o n w h o w a s th e n la t e r t o b e a w a r d e d t h e c o m p o n e n t

20

s u p p o r t t e n d e r i n i ts jo i n t v e n t u r e w i t h A A R C o r p o r a ti o n . S A AT s o ld th e
G P U s t o J M Av i a ti o n f o r j u s t o v e r 3 m il li o n r a n d a n d t h e n e x t d a y J M
Av i a ti o n s o l d th e m t o S w i s s p o r t a t a p r o f i t o f m o r e t h a n 6 m i ll io n r a n d .
A y e a r a f t e r S A AT s o ld t h e G P U s to J M Av i a ti o n w h o s o l d th e m o n t o
S w is s p o r t , S A AT h a d t o l e a s e t h o s e s a m e G P U s b a c k f r o m S w i s s p o r t a t
a c o s t to d a te o f m o r e th a n 8 mi ll i o n r a n d . Pr e c is e l y h o w J M Av i a t i o n

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e n t e r e d t h e p ic t u r e a n d w h y it w a s e n ti t l e d t o m a k e a 6 m i ll io n r a n d
p r o f i t i n a d a y w il l b e p a r t o f w h a t is e x p l o r e d in t h e e v i d e n c e .
C h a ir

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c o n d u c t e d f o r S A AT i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e s e t w o c o n tr a c ts .

Th e y h a v e

f o r m e d a b a s is f o r t h e in v e s t i g a t io n o f t h e C o m m i s s io n .
C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s ti g a t i o n h a s g o n e w e l l b e y o n d t h e m .

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t h a t r e a s o n t h a t w e d o n o t p r e s e n t t h e m t o y o u a s th o u g h t h e y w o u l d b e
t h e b a s i s f o r f a c t fi n d i n g .

I t is o u r s u b m is s i o n t h a t t h e f a c t fi n d i n g

s h o u l d b e b a s e d o n t h e e v id e n c e th a t y o u w i ll h e a r o v e r th e c o u r s e o f
10

t h e n e x t w e e k a n d t h a t w il l b e b a s e d o n t h e in d e p e n d e n t a n d fu r t h e r
in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n h a s c o n d u c t e d .
C h a ir w it h th a t b a c k g r o u n d i n p la c e I w o u l d lik e to m o v e t o
some of the procedural aspects.

C h a ir t h e r e w i ll b e 4 w i t n e s s e s w h o

w i ll te s ti fy o v e r t h e n e x t w e e k in r e l a ti o n t o t h i s a r e a o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
A ll o f th e w i tn e s s e s h a v e b e e n s u m m o n s e d .

Some of them have

p r o v i d e d a ff id a v i ts a n d s ta t e m e n ts t o th e C o m m i s s i o n i n a d v a n c e o f
t h e ir e v id e n c e , o t h e r o f t h e w i tn e s s e s h a v e n o t. A n d t h o s e w it n e s s e s
w h o h a v e d e c li n e d

to

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a ffi d a v i t o r s t a te m e n t t o t h e

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20

w h e n t h e y a r r i v e f o r t h e ir t e s t i m o n y o n t h e m a t t e r s th a t a r e b e i n g
in v e s t i g a t e d .
C h a ir i n s o f a r a s w i t n e s s e s g e n e r a l ly a r e c o n c e r n e d , w e
b e li e v e i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o in d ic a t e t o y o u to d a y w h a t t h e p r o c e s s o f
e n g a g e m e n ts h a s b e e n b e c a u s e t h e y w il l h a v e a b e a r i n g o n a n a s p e c t
how to address in a moment.

C h a ir d u r i n g th e c o u r s e o f t h e

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i n to th e s e t w o c o n tr a c ts , n u m e r o u s e v e n ts
h a v e b e e n m a d e t o m e e t w i t h a l l t h e p e r ti n e n t w i t n e s s e s w h o c o u ld
s h e d li g h t o n t h e s e a s p e c ts o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

A n d t h e s e a t te m p t s

have been met with varied success. On some occasions no response is
r e c e i v e d to th e e n d e a v o u r s t h a t th e C o m m is s i o n h a s m a d e to e n g a g e
w i t h p e r s o n s . I n o t h e r i n s t a n c e s , w i tn e s s e s h a v e r e f u s e d to m e e t w i th
t h e C o m m i s s i o n u n l e s s t h e y a r e p r o v i d e d w i t h a l is t o f q u e s t io n s t h a t
w i ll b e a s k e d o f t h e m i n a d v a n c e o f t h e m e e ti n g . T h e l e g a l te a m a n d
t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s h a v e r e f u s e d to p r o v id e s u c h a lis t in s t e a d e v e r y
10

p e r s o n w h o h a v e b e e n r e q u e s t e d t o m e e t w i t h u s h a s b e e n g iv e n a l is t
o f t h e f o c u s a r e a s o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t w o u l d b e c o v e r e d i n th e
c o u r s e o f th e m e e ti n g i n o r d e r fo r t h e m t o b e a b l e t o p r e p a r e fo r t h a t
m e e ti n g .

S o m e ti m e s th a t h a s b e e n e n o u g h a n d th e n w i tn e s s e s h a v e

m e t w i t h u s o n o t h e r o c c a s i o n s i t h a s n o t a n d m e e t i n g s h a s s t il l b e e n
r e fu s e d .

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n o n e th e le s s b e e n d e e m e d c r i tic a l t o th e w o r k o f t h i s C o m m is s i o n .
T h o s e w i tn e s s e s h a v e b e e n s u m m o n e d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d w il l d o s o
o v e r th e n e x t m a n y d a y s .
C h a ir t h e r e is o n e e x c e p ti o n t o th a t g e n e r a l a p p r o a c h a n d I

20

n e e d t o h ig h li g h t i t a t th e o u ts e t. Yo u w il l r e c a l l fr o m t h e b a c k g r o u n d
t h a t I s k e tc h e d o f th e c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t s e r v ic e s c o n tr a c t th a t i t w a s
a w a r d e d t o a j o i n t v e n t u r e c o m p r i s i n g a lo c a l c o m p a n y J M Av i a ti o n a n d
a n A m e r ic a n c o m p a n y A A R S u p p ly C h a i n I n c .
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Page 173 of 204

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s a n d t h e r e is a f u ll p a c k o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t w e h a v e
p r e p a r e d s e t t in g o u t th o s e i n te r a c ti o n s .

C h a i r i f I m a y b e g le a v e t o

h a n d i t u p , I d o n o t p r o p o s e t h a t w e g o t h r o u g h i t i n d e t a il b u t i f t h e r e
is a p o i n t a t w h i c h a r e f e r e n c e s h o u l d b e m a d e , i t w o u l d b e u s e f u l fo r
y o u t o h a v e i t a v a i l a b le t o y o u . Yo u w il l s e e i n t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t
A A R is r e p r e s e n t e d b y a Mr J o h n B e l l o f B a k e r & M c K e n z ie . H e is i n
a tt e n d a n c e to d a y a n d I h a v e p r o v i d e d h i m w i t h a c o p y o f t h i s b u n d l e i n
s o fa r a s I m a y m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o i t n o w.
C h a ir t h e i n t e r a c t io n s w i th A A R c o m m e n c e d o n t h e 2 7 t h o f
10

S e p te m b e r la s t y e a r.

W h e n th e C o m m i s s io n s e n t a le t t e r t o M r B e l l

w h o w e c o u ld g a t h e r fr o m p r e v i o u s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d in fa c t
li ti g a t i o n i n v o lv i n g t h i s t e n d e r h a d r e p r e s e n t e d A A R a t t h e ti m e .
we

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in v e s t i g a t io n s h a d i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n c o r r u p ti o n
in v o lv e d in t h e a w a r d o f t h is t e n d e r t o t h e j o i n t v e n t u r e a n d it
r e q u e s t e d a m e e ti n g w i t h A A R r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s t o e x p l o r e t h r e e th i n g s .
T h e r o l e th a t A A R p la y e d in t h e b i d s u b m i s s i o n o f t h e j o i n t v e n tu r e J M
Av i a ti o n a n d A A R . I t s r o l e in t h e c o n c lu s io n o f t h e c o n tr a c t f o r S A AT
a n d p e r f o r m a n c e u n d e r th e c o n t r a c t .
C h a ir t h a t w a s m e t w i t h a r e s p o n s e f r o m t h e a t t o r n e y s a c t in g

20

f o r A A R - w e ll a p o l o g ie s .
AAR.

Th e a tt o r n e y s w h o h a d p r e v i o u s ly a c te d fo r

A n d t h e r e s p o n s e a t t h a t s ta g e w a s a n d I q u o t e , “ t h e y d id n o t

h o l d in s tr u c ti o n s i n r e l a t i o n to r e s p o n d in g t o t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t th e
stage.”

T h e C o m m i s s i o n t h e r e fo r e f o l lo w e d u p f o r c l a r it y.

We

e n q u ir e d , d i d t h a t m e a n t h a t t h e a t t o r n e y s w e r e n o t a c t i n g f o r A A R o r

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t h a t th e y w e r e a c t in g b u t h a d b e e n i n s tr u c t e d n o t t o r e s p o n d t o t h e
Commission?

A n d if th e y w e r e n o t a c t i n g , c o u l d t h e y p le a s e p r o v i d e

d ir e c t c o n t a c t d e ta il s . Th e r e s p o n s e c a m e o n t h e 2 1 s t o f O c t o b e r. T h a t
r e s p o n s e i n d ic a t e d th a t A A R w o u l d lik e c l a r it y o n t h e n a t u r e a n d e x te n d
o f t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n w a n t e d t o h a v e w i t h A A R . A n d i n
t h a t r e g a r d , th e y s a id a n d in li g h t o f t h e h is to r y o f t h e m a t t e r w e w o u ld
a p p r e c ia t e u n d e r s ta n d i n g a n y a r e a s f o r f o c u s f o r s p e c i fi c e n q u i r i e s
fr o m t h e C o m m is s i o n .
T h a t w a s r e s p o n d e d t o o n th e b a s is th a t th e a r e a s o f f o c u s w e r e th e
10

t h r e e t h a t h a s p r e v io u s ly b e e n i d e n t i fi e d o n 2 7 t h o f S e p t e m b e r. Th e r e
w a s t h e n a fu r t h e r fo ll o w u p , w e r e w e w i ll i n g t o p r o v i d e m o r e
in f o r m a ti o n a n d w e r e s p o n d e d t o s a y, n o t h e a r e a s o f fo c u s w il l b e
t h o s e a s s e t o u t o n t h e 2 7 t h o f S e p te m b e r.

And in response to that

c o m m u n ic a ti o n w e r e c e iv e d a d e t a i le d r e s p o n s e o n t h e 1 8 t h o f
N o v e m b e r f r o m A A R ’s a t t o r n e y s .

C h a i r y o u w il l fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 1 7

t h e r e i s o n e p a r t t h a t I w i ll r e a d in t o t h e r e c o r d a n d i f i t is c o n v e n i e n t ,
y o u m a y w is h t o l o o k a t i t b u t I d o n o t s u g g e s t i t is d i r e c t ly n e c e s s a r y.
C h a ir w h a t A A R ’s a t to r n e y s s a id o n th a t d a te , th e 1 8 t h o f
N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 9 , i s i n e s s e n c e t h e f o l lo w i n g . T h e y s a id t h a t t h e y w e r e
20

n o t p r e p a r e d t o m e e t w i t h t h e C o m m i s s io n b e c a u s e o f t h e l a c k o f
tr a n s p a r e n c y a n d f a ir p r o c e s s .

T h e y h ig h l ig h t e d t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e

“ u n c e r ta in n a t u r e o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s p o i n ts o f i n q u ir y, i t is d i ffi c u l t t o
u n d e r s t a n d w h ic h r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s w o u l d h a v e m e a n i n g f u l fir s t h a n d
p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e s u ffic i e n t t o a n s w e r tr u th f u l ly a n d a c c u r a t e l y t h e
q u e s t io n s p u t to t h e m . ” Th e y a ls o s a i d a t p a r a g r a p h 6 o f th e le t t e r t h e

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f o ll o w i n g ; in a d d i t io n th e p u b l ic n a tu r e o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n s in q u ir y is a t
t h e m e t h o d s o f i n te r r o g a ti o n a n d m e d ia r e p o r t i n g in r e l a ti o n t o p r e v i o u s
t e s ti m o n y b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s c r e a t e d a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e th e
p u b lic p e r c e p ti o n i s th a t e n ti ti e s c a l le d b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s i o n o r b e i n g
s u b j e c t o f i ts m a n d a t e a r e a u to m a t ic a l ly d e e m e d t o h a v e a s s o c i a t e d
it s e l f w i t h o r c o m m i t t e d m is c o n d u c t , b r i b e r y a n d o r c o r r u p ti o n . A A R a s
a U S m u l ti n a ti o n a l c o m p a n y c o m m i t t e d t o c o m p l ia n c e d e n i e s a n y s u c h
a s s o c i a t i o n a n d i s n o t w i ll i n g t o s u b j e c t i ts e l f t o a n u n s u b s t a n t ia t e d a n d
in e q u i ta b l e tr i a l b y m e d ia .
10

T h e le t t e r th e n g o e s o n a n d s t a t e s t h a t A A R is b a s e d i n th e U n i te d
S t a te s o f A m e r i c a w i t h “ n o lo c a l p r e s e n c e in S o u t h A f r ic a ” . A n d it w e n t
o n t o s a y th a t i t w o u l d th e r e f o r e h a v e t o i n c u r s i g n i f ic a n t c o s t a n d ti m e
t o m a k e i ts r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s a v a i la b le i n S o u t h A f r ic a . I t s ta t e d t h a t th e
c o n tr a c t w a s l a w f u l ly a w a r d e d to A A R a n d th a t i t s o b l i g a t io n s u n d e r i t
w e r e b e i n g f u l fi ll e d . A n d i t c o n c lu d e s a t p a r a g r a p h 9 t o s a y, w e tr u s t
t h a t t h e a b o v e e x p l a i n s A A R ’s p o s i t io n a n d w e r e it e r a t e th a t A A R w il l
b e w i lli n g t o c o n s id e r w r i t t e n q u e s ti o n s p r e s e n te d t o i t b y t h e
Commission.
C h a ir th e C o m m i s s i o n r e s p o n d e d to t h a t le t t e r o n t h e 1 0 t h o f

20

D e c e m b e r a n d i ts e s s e n c e t h e r e s p o n s e w a s a s f o l l o w s ; w e n o t e d t h a t
it w a s r e g r e tt a b l e t h a t a c o m p a n y w h o h a d c o n tr a c te d t o a s ta t e o w n e d
e n t e r p r i s e fo r a v a lu e o f m o r e th a n 1 b i l li o n r a n d w a s n o t w i ll in g t o
m e e t w i th t h e C o m m i s s io n .

W e r e s p o n d e d t o th e a l le g e d u n c e r t a i n

n a t u r e o f t h e to p i c s t o b e a d d r e s s e d a n d e x p l a i n e d t h a t t h e y w e r e i n
f a c t e n t ir e ly c l e a r. W e w e r e i n t e r e s te d in t h e tr e e a s p e c ts id e n ti fi e d i n

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t h e 2 7 S e p te m b e r l e t t e r. W h a t r o l e t h e y p l a y e d in t h e b i d s u b m is s i o n .
T h e c o n c lu s i o n o f th e c o n t r a c t a n d t h e p e r fo r m a n c e t h e r e a f t e r.

C h a ir

w e e v e n r e s p o n d e d t o th e a l le g a ti o n t h a t i t w a s n o t e a s y t o i d e n t if y w h o
t h e r e le v a n t p e o p l e a t A A R w o u l d l ik e ly b e . W e i n d ic a te d i t w a s fa ir ly
c le a r, i t w a s a n y o n e i n v o l v e d i n t h e b i d s u b m i s s i o n , t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f
t h e c o n t r a c t o r p e r fo r m a n c e u n d e r i t .

B u t w e d id n o t s to p th e r e .

We

w e n t s o fa r a s t o p r o v i d e t h e m w i t h t h e n a m e s o f t h e 6 e m p l o y e e s o f
A A R t h a t o u r in v e s ti g a t io n h a d r e v e a le d h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n t h o s e
v a r io u s s ta g e s o f t h e p r o c e s s . W e a ls o q u e r i e d w h a t i t m e a n t f o r A A R
10

t o s ta t e th a t i t d i d n o t h a v e “l o c a l p r e s e n c e i n S o u th A fr ic a ” b e c a u s e w e
p o i n t e d o u t t h a t it h a d b e e n a w a r d e d a c o n tr a c t s in c e m i d - 2 0 1 6 . I t h a d
b e e n p e r f o r m i n g u n d e r t h a t c o n tr a c t s i n c e th a t ti m e a n d t o a s t a t e
o w n e d e n t it y. A n d i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h a t t h e 1 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 9 , i t
h a d b e e n p a i d 9 5 4 m il li o n r a n d . W e t h e n o ff e r e d a f u r t h e r o p p o r t u n i ty
to meet on the 13th of January 2020.
T h e r e s p o n s e c a m e o n th e 1 0 t h o f J a n u a r y, A A R ’s a t t o r n e y s
in d i c a t e d t h a t i t w a s s t ill n o t w il li n g t o m e e t b e c a u s e th e C o m m i s s io n s
r e s p o n s e h a d n o t s u ffi c i e n t ly a d d r e s s e d t h e ir c o n c e r n s .
c la r i fy t h e q u e s ti o n a b o u t lo c a l p r e s e n c e .

20

And it did

I t s a id t h a t a lt h o u g h i t

p r o v i d e s s e r v i c e s to a s t a t e o w n e d e n t i t y, i t h a d n o “ p h y s ic a l l o c a l
p r e s e n c e in S o u t h A f r ic a ” a n d n o n e o f i t s e m p lo y e e s a r e b a s e d h e r e .
C h a ir t h e C o m m is s i o n r e s p o n d e d a g a in o n t h e 1 4 t h o f J a n u a r y
2 0 2 0 t o t h a t c o m m u n i c a t io n . A g a in , e m p h a s is i n g t h a t it i s r e g r e t t a b l e
t h a t t h e r e w o u ld b e n o o p p o r t u n i ty t o m e e t .

B u t i t th e n e x p l a in th e

R u l e 3 .3 p r o c e s s t o A A R b e c a u s e b y t h a t s t a g e th e C o m m i s s io n h a d

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r e c e i v e d t h e a ffi d a v it o f M s S a m b o w h o w ill b e th e fir s t w i tn e s s t o d a y,
a n d i t w a s e x p l a in e d t h a t t h e r e i s a p r o c e s s th a t is f o l lo w e d a n d t h e y
w o u ld i n d u e c o u r s e r e c e iv e n o t ic e a s a n i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n .

Th a t

n o t ic e w a s d u l y s e r v e d - i t w a s s e n t t o A A R ’s a t t o r n e y s a n d o n th e 1 9 t h
o f J a n u a r y w e r e c e iv e d a le t t e r fr o m t h e l a w y e r s o f A A R C o r p o r a ti o n
a n d s o m e o f i ts e m p l o y e e s w h o h a d r e c e i v e d t h e R u l e 3 . 3 n o t ic e . C h a ir
t h a t i s t h e l a s t l e t te r in t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b u n d l e a n d y o u w i ll fi n d i t
commencing at page 27.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d a t e t h e r e i s 2 9 J a n u a r y.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A p o lo g ie s C h a ir, I m a d e a n e r r o r.

Indeed, it

w a s 2 9 J a n u a r y t h a t w e r e c e iv e d t h a t r e s p o n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s til l tr y in g to lo o k f o r 1 9 J a n u a r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s n o , t h a t is m y e r r o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e i t th e R u l e 3 . 3 n o tic e s w a s s e n d o u t
a r o u n d t h e 1 5 t h o f J a n u a r y a n d th e n t h e r e s p o n s e c a m e o n t h e 2 9 t h o f
J a n u a r y. T h a t is t h e le t t e r a t p a g e 2 7 o f t h e b u n d le . T h e le t t e r b e g i n s
b y i n d ic a ti n g w h a t i t is n o t . A A R ’s a t to r n e y s m a k e i t c le a r th a t i t is n o t
a r e s p o n s e t o M s S a m b o ’s e v i d e n c e i n t e r m s o f r u l e 3 .9 o f t h e
20

C o m m i s s i o n ’s r u le s
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, is i t t h e le t t e r o f 2 9 J a n u a r y t h a t y o u a r e
t a lk in g a b o u t n o w ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , it is . A n d i f y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 3 y o u w il l
s e e i t is i n d ic a te d t h e r e w h a t t h e le t t e r is n o t . I t is n o t a s u b m is s io n
u n d e r r u l e 3 .9 a n d t h e C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d n o t m is c o n s tr u e it a s s u c h .

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O u r p u r p o s e is n o t t o a d d r e s s e a c h a n d e v e r y a l l e g a ti o n c o n t a i n i n g th e
R u l e 3 . 3 n o t ic e a n d Ms S a m b o ’s a ff id a v i t . O u r n o t d o i n g s o s h o u l d n o t
b e c o n s tr u e d a s a n a c c e p t a n c e t h e r e o f o r a w a iv e r o f a n y o f o u r c l i e n t ’s
r ig h ts .
T h e y g o o n i n th e le t t e r t o s ta t e t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s o b j e c ti v e o f
g a t h e r i n g e v i d e n c e fr o m w i t n e s s e s c o m p e t e n t t o te s t i fy a b o u t m a t te r s
in

Ms

S a m b o ’s a ffi d a v i t w o u l d n o t b e a d v a n c e d

t h r o u g h A A R ’s

t e s ti m o n y b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s io n . A n d t h e r e a s o n f o r th a t i s g iv e n th a t
n o c u r r e n t A A R e m p l o y e e o r o ffic e r h a s p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f a l l o r
10

s u b s t a n t ia ll y a ll o f t h e o p e r a tiv e f a c ts a ll e g e d b y M s S a m b o i n h e r
a ffi d a v i t . A n d A A R i s th e r e f o r e n o t i n a p o s i ti o n a c c u r a te ly t o a n s w e r
q u e s t io n s r e la t in g to M s S a m b o ’s a ll e g a t i o n s .
C h a ir d e s p i te t h a t th e l e t t e r g o e s o n t o i n d i c a t e w h y M s
S a m b o ’s v e r s i o n s h o u l d n o t b e b e li e v e d a n d is t o b e d i s c r e d i te d .

I

p a u s e a t t h i s p o i n t .. . ( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: How does that happen?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll C h a ir, t h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e m y p o in t . I t i s
n o t e n tir e l y c le a r t o u s h o w y o u c a n i n t h e s a m e b r e a t h s a y t h a t th e
v e r s i o n s h o u l d b e r e je c te d a n d s a y t h a t t h e r e is n o p e r s o n c u r r e n tl y i n
20

t h e e m p l o y o f A A R w h o c a n a c c u r a t e ly a n s w e r q u e s ti o n s r e l a ti n g t o M s
S a m b o ’s a l le g a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir it is o u r . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , n o b o d y h a s p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No person has personal knowledge but

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
c a r e fu ll y o f a ll w i ll s u b s t a n ti a l ly a ll o f t h e o p e r a t iv e f a c ts .

And as a

c o n s e q u e n c e , A A R is n o t i n a p o s it i o n “ to a c c u r a t e l y a n s w e r q u e s t io n s
r e l a ti n g t o S a m b o ’s a l le g a t i o n s ” .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o n d e r w h e t h e r th a t is m e a n t t o s a y, n o o n e h a s g o t
p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f a l l t h e fa c t s .

And no one has got personal

k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t is s u b s ta n ti a lly a l l o r w h a t e v e r.

So, whoever has

p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e h a s v e r y l i m i te d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o m e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e j u s t n o t a l l o r
s u b s t a n t ia ll y a ll o f i t.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I th i n k th e p o in t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s is it is

n o t a d e n i a l t h a t t h e r e a r e p e o p le w h o d o h a v e s o m e k n o w l e d g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a i r i t is o u r s u b m i s s i o n t h a t t h i s i s n o t a n

a p p r o p r i a t e m a n n e r in w h i c h t o d e a l w i t h th e C o m m is s i o n .

The

C o m m i s s i o n h a s a s e t o f r u l e s . T h e y s e t o u t p r e c is e ly w h a t i m p l ic a t e d
p e o p l e a r e r e q u ir e d t o d o w h e n th e y d i s p u t e t h e e v i d e n c e o f a w i t n e s s .
C h a ir w e a r e a w a r e o f t h e r u l e s . T h e y m u s t p r o v i d e a s t a te m e n t o r a n
a ffi d a v i t .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y m u s t c l e a r l y id e n t i fy w h a t is d is p u t e d a n d
the grounds of dispute.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir p u r s u a n t to a r u li n g . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f th e y d o n o t d o t h a t, th e y c a n n o t b e t a k in g

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
is s u e w it h th e e v i d e n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

In d e e d .

A n d c h a ir, t h a t l e a d s m e t o t h e

p r o c e d u r a l p o in t t h a t f l o w s fr o m t h is .

I w i ll g o t h r o u g h i n a m o m e n t

w h a t o t h e r r e s p o n s e s h a v e b e e n r e c e iv e d t o R u l e 3 .3 n o ti c e s i n r e s p e c t
o f Ms S a m b o ’s e v i d e n c e . S u b j e c t t o y o u r d ir e c t io n C h a ir it is n o t o u r
in t e n t io n t o p u t th is l e tt e r o f t h e 2 9 t h o f J a n u a r y a n d i ts c o n t e n ts t o M s
Sambo.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s o u r s u b m is s i o n t h a t i f i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s
10

w o u ld l ik e t h e ir v e r s i o n to b e t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t b y t h i s C o m m i s s i o n ,
t h e y m u s t d o s o i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h i ts r u l e s
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir th e u p s h o t o f t h is i s t h a t a t a p r o c e d u r a l
le v e l w e w i ll n o t p u t t h e “ v e r s io n ” th a t a p p e a r s i n t h i s le t t e r t o Ms
S a m b o d u r i n g h e r e v i d e n c e . B u t C h a ir, i t a l s o l e a v e s t h e C o m m i s s io n
in a s o m e w h a t u n s a ti s fa c t o r y p o s i t io n . B e c a u s e o v e r th e n e x t w e e k t h e
C o m m i s s i o n w il l h e a r e v id e n c e fr o m w it n e s s e s w h o w e r e i n t e g r a lly
in v o lv e d in t h i s . T h e d ir e c t o r o f J M Av i a ti o n h a s b e e n s u m m o n s t o g iv e
e v i d e n c e . B u t w h a t i s n o t p o s s ib l e is f o r t h is C o m m i s s io n t o e x e r c i s e

20

summoning powers beyond its borders
CHAIRPERSON: Of course.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o , n o s u m m o n s c a n b e is s u e d in f a c t i n
r e l a ti o n t o A A R o r i ts e m p lo y e e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir in d u e c o u r s e a t t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f th e

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e v i d e n c e w e w il l m a k e s u b m is s i o n s a b o u t w h a t f u r t h e r s t e p s if a n y w e
r e c o m m e n d s h o u ld b e t a k e n i n r e l a t i o n t o A A R .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a i r I in d i c a t e d t h a t I w o u l d d e a l w i th t h e

o th e r r e s p o n s e s t o t h e 3 .3 n o ti c e s . M s S a m b o ’s a ffi d a v i t w a s r e c e iv e d
ti m e o u s ly a n d e n a b l e d u s to e n s u r e t h a t t h e R u l e 3 . 3 n o tic e s w e r e s e n t
o u t i n m o r e t h a n t h e 1 4 d a y s . I t h in k it w a s a b o u t 1 6 t o 1 8 d a y s . W e
h a v e r e c e iv e d r e s p o n s e s fr o m 3 i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s . Th e fir s t o f t h o s e
is M r M c e b is i J o n a s , h e h a s n o t p u t in a n a p p lic a ti o n t o c r o s s - e x a mi n e .
10

H e h a s p u t i n a s t a t e m e n t s u p p o r t e d b y t w o c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i ts . W e
h a v e r e c e iv e d i t l a t e o v e r n ig h t a n d th e r e w a s a n in d ic a t i o n t h a t a f u ll y
c o m m i s s io n e d v e r s i o n w o u l d b e a v a il a b l e t o u s i n d u e c o u r s e . It i s o u r
in t e n t io n t o p u t th a t v e r s i o n to M s S a m b o i n t h e c o u r s e o f h e r e v i d e n c e
a s w e h a v e d o n e p r e v i o u s ly.

W h e n th e p r o c e s s e s r u n s e ff ic ie n tl y

e n o u g h i t m e a n s y o u g e t th e v e r s i o n b e fo r e th e w i t n e s s g i v e s e v i d e n c e
a n d i t c a n b e p r o b e d t h e r e a f t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, t h e s e c o n d r e s p o n s e w a s fr o m M s Ya k h e
K w in a n a , a f o r m e r m e m b e r o f t h e b o a r d o f b o t h S A AT a n d S A A .
20

She

s i m il a r ly d o e s n o t a p p ly t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M s S a m b o b u t h a s p u t o u t a
s t a te m e n t w i t h h e r v e r s i o n o f f a c ts . A n d t h a t s i m il a r l y w i th y o u r l e a v e
w i ll b e p u t t o M s S a m b o d u r i n g h e r e v i d e n c e .
T h e t h ir d r e s p o n s e t o t h e R u l e 3 . 3 n o t i c e s c o m e s fr o m Ms
N o n ts a s a M e m e l a . S h e is th e w i t n e s s w h o is b e i n g s u m m o n e d w a s t h e
H e a d o f P r o c u r e m e n t a t S A AT a t t h e ti m e o f t h e s e t w o c o n tr a c ts . S h e

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is s c h e d u le d to g i v e e v id e n c e o n Fr id a y. H e r v e r s i o n w il l s i m i l a r l y b e
p u t t o M s S a m b o b y M r M b i k i w e w h o w i ll b e p r e s e n t in g h e r e v i d e n c e s o
t h a t M s S a m b o c a n d e a l w it h t h e m .

Is s u e s t h a t a r is e o u t o f t h a t

e v i d e n c e w i ll b e p u t t o M s M e m e l a w h e n s h e c o m e s o n Fr id a y. I w il l b e
p r e s e n t in g h e r e v i d e n c e .

A n d a s w e d i d i n t h e p r e v i o u s a v i a ti o n

s e s s i o n i t w il l b e o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o y o u r th e r e a ft e r t h a t o n c e t h e r e
h a s b e e n t h a t fu ll in t e r r o g a t io n o f th e f a c t s , w e w o u l d t h e n g o b a c k t o
M s M e m e l a a n d a s k h e r w h e t h e r s h e p e r s i s t w i th th e c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n
a p p lic a ti o n .
C h a ir th e s e c o n d w i t n e s s i n t h e o r d e r a f t e r M s S a m b o i s Mr

10
Human.

N o w M r H u m a n is t h e Ac t in g H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t f o r S u p p ly

C h a in M a n a g e m e n t a t S A AT. H e e ff e c ti v e ly o c c u p ie s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t
M s M e m e l a u s e d t o o c c u p y a t t h e ti m e th a t t h e s e c o n tr a c t s w e r e
concluded.

C h a ir o n p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c ts in r e l a t io n to M r H u m a n , t h e

C o m m i s s i o n r e c e iv e d h is a ffi d a v it d e p o s e d t o o n l y o n T h u r s d a y la s t
w e e k , t h a t w a s t h e 3 0 t h o f J a n u a r y. W e m o v e d s w if t ly a n d t h e f o ll o w i n g
d a y w e is s u e d 2 6 n o tic e s t o i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s b u t t h o s e w e n t o u t o n
Fr id a y o f l a s t w e e k .

M r H u m a n i s s c h e d u l e d to g iv e e v i d e n c e f r o m

T h u r s d a y. S o t h a t n o ti c e w il l n o t b e a s m u c h a s t h e 1 4 d a y s b u t it w il l
20

b e j u s t s h o r t o f a w e e k . A n d w e h a v e m a d e g r e a t e ffo r t s t h r o u g h th e
s e c r e t a r i a t t o e n s u r e t h a t i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s h a v e r e c e iv e d b o t h t h e
s t a te m e n t p l u s i ts a n n e x u r e s .

It is a n e x tr e m e l y l e n g t h y b u n d l e .

I

t h i n k i t r a n g e s to a b o u t 7 fil e s . B u t t h e y a r e in c o n s ta n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n
w i t h i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e y h a v e r e c e iv e d th e m .

To

d a t e w e h a v e n o t h a d r e s p o n s e s b u t w e w i ll u p d a t e y o u o n th a t in t h e

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le a d u p t o T h u r s d a y ’s e v i d e n c e .
C h a ir I h a v e j u s t b e e n r e m i n d e d t h a t t h e r e is a ls o , I h a d
n e g le c t e d t h is , a s t a t e m e n t f r o m M r Z w a n e i n r e s p e c t o f M s S a m b o ’s
s t a te m e n t a n d th a t s i m i la r ly w i ll b e p u t t o M s S a m b o i n t h e c o u r s e o f
h e r e v i d e n c e s . M r Z w a n e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e o r a n o t h e r Z w a n e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o a n o t h e r Zw a n e .

Th is is M r Z w a n e w h o

o c c u p i e d t h e p o s i ti o n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h , th e o n e w h o w a s A c t in g C E O a t s o m e s t a g e a t

SAA.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , in d e e d C h a ir t h a t i s p r e c is e l y r i g h t . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir, s o t h a t i s th e e v i d e n c e f o r T h u r s d a y.

T h e e v i d e n c e f o r F r i d a y is M s M e m e l a w h o h a s b e e n s u m m o n s e d t o
a p p e a r. S h e h a s p r o v id e d t w o s t a t e m e n ts to t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d i t i s
c le a r i n t h o s e s t a te m e n ts t h a t s h e d o e s n o t i m p l ic a t e a n y o n e a n d s o n o
R u l e 3 .3 p r o c e s s h a s b e e n f o l lo w e d . S h e w il l c o m e a n d b e q u e s ti o n e d
on it and related matters.

A n d M r N d z e k u to w h o m I r e fe r r e d e a r l ie r

w h o i s t h e d i r e c t o r o f J M Av i a ti o n , h e h a s b e e n s u m m o n s t o g iv e
20

e v i d e n c e o n Tu e s d a y.

H e h a s n o t p r o v id e d a n y s ta t e m e n t t o t h e

C o m m i s s i o n in a d v a n c e o f th a t e v i d e n c e a n d s o h e w i ll b e s i m p ly
q u e s t io n e d w h e n h e a t te n d s .
C h a ir t h e r e is o n e m o r e m a t te r o f p r o c e s s t h a t I m u s t d e a l w i t h
a n d it r e l a t e s t o d e v e l o p m e n ts t h a t o c c u r r e d y e s te r d a y in t h e c o u r s e o f
t h e in v e s ti g a t io n . C h a ir i n th e c o u r s e o f y e s t e r d a y w e w e r e c o n t a c t e d

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b y M s S a m b o to in d ic a t e d t h a t s h e h a s f o u n d a fl a s h d is k w h ic h i s a
fl a s h d is k t h a t s h e r e fe r s to in h e r e v i d e n c e a n d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , th e o n e th a t s h e s a y s i n t h e s t a te m e n t s h e c o u l d
n o t fi n d o r d id n o t k n o w w h e r e i t w a s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , p r e c is e l y t h a t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s h e fo u n d i t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

She did.

H e r e v i d e n c e - w e w i ll g o i n t o s o m e

d e t a i l a b o u t h o w s h e fo u n d i t, fr o m w h o m s h e g o t i t e tc e t e r a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t i t is i m p o r t a n t th a t I ju s t r e la y s o m e

p r o c e d u r a l p r o c e s s e s t h a t w e r e fo ll o w e d a ft e r s h e m a d e t h is k n o w n t o
t h e C o m m i s s i o n y e s t e r d a y. C h a ir M s S a m b o b r o u g h t i t to t h e o ffic e s o f
t h e C o m m is s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n te d t o s a y th a t I n o ti c e d t h a t t h e s e n te n c e i n
h e r s ta t e m e n t t h a t t a l k s a b o u t t h a t m is s i n g p a r t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s v e r y c a r e f u l ly w o r d e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll I a m s u r e t h a t th a t w i ll b e e x p l o r e d i n h e r
evidence.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir M s S a m b o in d i c a t e d i t w a s fo u n d .

She

b r o u g h t i t t o th e C o m m is s i o n s o ffic e s y e s t e r d a y e v e n in g . S h e w a s m e t
b y a m e m b e r o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n te a m a n d w h a t w e c a l l t h e D F T te a m ,
t h e D a ta F o r e n s ic s Te a m o f t h e C o m m i s s io n .

She handed over the

fl a s h d is k . C h a ir b e f o r e I c o n t i n u e , t h e r e w il l b e a n a ff id a v i t fr o m t h e

Page 185 of 204

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r e s p e c ti v e m e m b e r s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n s i n v e s t i g a t io n te a m t o t h i s
e ffe c t. It is i n t h e p r o c e s s o f b e i n g p r e p a r e d . I h a v e n o t b e e n a b le t o
p r o v i d e i t y e t t o y o u b u t it is i m p o r t a n t ju s t f o r c h a i n o f c u s t o d y r e a s o n s
t h a t I g iv e y o u t h is b a c k g r o u n d to d a y.
S h e h a n d e d it o v e r.

T h e y t o o k s te p s t o i m a g e t h e fl a s h d is k

w h ic h is e ffe c tiv e l y m a k e a c o p y o f i t u s i n g t h e s o f tw a r e o f th e
C o m m i s s i o n w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d a n d t h is w i ll b e e v id e n c e i n t h e
a ffi d a v i t , a ls o p r o v i d e s a c e r t if ic a te o f a u t h e n ti c a t io n i n s o f a r a s th e
c o p y is a n a c c u r a te c o p y. A f t e r t h a t to o k p la c e t h e v a r i o u s p r o c e s s i n
10

r e l a ti o n to p r e s e r v i n g th e e v id e n c e w e r e f o ll o w e d .
an evidence bag.

It was placed into

I t w a s s e a le d a n d i t w a s - t h is w a s d o n e i n t h e

p r e s e n c e o f a ll c o n c e r n e d a n d s i g n e d b y t h e n e c e s s a r y w i tn e s s e s . A n d
a l l o f th a t w il l b e n o w t a k e n to th e s e c u r e f a c il it y o f t h e D a t a F o r e n s ic
Te a m s o th a t i f a t a n y p o i n t i n fu t u r e p r o c e e d in g s i t i s n e c e s s a r y f o r
t h a t o r i g i n a l h a r d - f l a s h d i s k t o f o r m a b a s is in t h e e v i d e n c e , th e r e w il l
b e a f u l l c h a in o f c u s to d y a t le a s t i n s o f a r a s i t c a m e t o t h e a t te n ti o n
o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d i ts in v e s t i g a t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h o s e a r e th e p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c t s . U n l e s s
20

m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d t e l ls m e , I h a v e f o r g o t t e n a n y th i n g b u t I t h i n k t h a t
t a k e s c a r e o f i t . I f I m a y t h e n ju s t h a n d o v e r t o M r M b i k i w a w h o w i ll b e
p r e s e n t in g th e e v i d e n c e o f M s S a m b o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th a n k y o u . T h a t is fi n e . S o , Ms H o f m e y r, I s e e
t h a t n o w w e g e t t h e r e a l A d v o c a t e M b ik i w a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d .

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e n a m e t h e r e w h i l e y o u w e r e t a l k i n g w a s s a y in g

y o u w e r e A d v o c a t e M b ik i w a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s p r o b a b ly a s t e p u p f o r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : G o o d a f t e r n o o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d a f t e r n o o n Mr M b ik i w a .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

C h a ir I in t e n d t o p r o c e e d d ir e c t ly i n t o M s

S a m b o ’s e v i d e n c e . S o , i f s h e c o u ld b e s w o r n i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s a d m i n is t e r t h e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n .
10

R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
MS SAMBO: Sibongile Rejoyce Sambo.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n i n t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MS SAMBO: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , th e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u t h ?

I f s o , p l e a s e r a is e

y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d .
20

MS SAMBO: So help me God.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir t h e f il e c o n ta in i n g

M s S a m b o ’s a ffi d a v i t , I w o u l d a s k if i t c o u l d b e p l e a s e a d m i t t e d a s
Exhibit DD18.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e f il e c o n t a i n i n g M s Si b o n g il e R e j o y c e S a m b o ’s

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
a ffi d a v i t a n d A n n e x u r e s w i ll b e a d m i t te d a n d m a r k e d E x h i b it D D 1 8 .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o , i n fr o n t o f y o u , y o u w il l h a v e a
fi le o n th e s p in e o f w h ic h is m a r k e d D D 1 8 . I f y o u l o o k o n t h e t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r o f e a c h p a g e y o u w il l s e e t h o s e r e d n u m b e r s . T h o s e a r e
t h e p a g e n u m b e r s t h a t I w il l b e r e f e r r i n g y o u t o d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f
your evidence.
M S S A M B O : O a k y.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o - w e l l fir s t ly c a n I

a s k y o u to id e n t i fy th e d o c u m e n t t h a t i s o n p a g e 1 i n fr o n t o f y o u .
10

M S S A M B O : I t i s t h e a ff id a v i t.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Is t h a t th e a ff i d a v i t t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d t o t h e
Commission?
MS SAMBO:

Ye s , t h is is t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t I h a v e p r o v id e d t o t h e

Commission.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 4 2 ?
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Is t h a t y o u r s ig n a t u r e ?
M S S A M B O : Ye s , th a t i s m y s ig n a tu r e .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . M s S a m b o , b e f o r e I g e t i n to th e
20

d e t a i l o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t. Yo u s p e a k a t v a r io u s p o i n t s th r o u g h o u t i t a b o u t
t h e d i ffi c u l ti e s t h a t y o u h a v e r e m e m b e r in g m a n y o f th e e v e n ts . . .
( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r M b ik i w a , I m a y h a v e m i s s e d i t . D id y o u
a s k h e r t o c o n fir m t h a t i ts c o n te n ts a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t t o c o v e r i n
c a s e w e le a v e o u t a n y th in g ?

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

I n d e e d C h a ir.

D o y o u c o n fir m t h a t th e

c o n te n ts o f t h e a ff id a v i t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M S S A M B O : C o n f ir m e d .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d a r e t h e r e a n y c o r r e c t io n s t h a t y o u w o u l d
w i s h t o m a k e t o i t a t t h i s s ta g e ?
MS SA MBO:

O n t h e a ffi d a v i t ?

Ye s , t h e o n e c o r r e c t i o n is a b o u t th e

a ffi d a v i t- I m e a n s o r r y, i t is a b o u t t h e f l a s h d is k t h a t w e f o u n d .

My

le g a l c a n a s s i s t m e o n o t h e r t h i n g s b u t it i s m a i n ly t h e f la s h d i s k .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u , i f t h e r e a r e a n y o t h e r s , w e c a n
10

a d d r e s s t h e m i n d u e c o u r s e a s w e g e t to t h e m .
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And maybe that one maybe you do not need to correct
a n y th in g b e c a u s e a t t h e t i m e y o u d e p o s e d t o t h e a ffi d a v i t , y o u d id n o t
k n o w w h e r e it w a s .
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is o n ly s u b s e q u e n t ly th a t y o u g o t- y o u fo u n d i t.
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t y o u th o u g h t y o u s h o u l d c o r r e c t ?

20

M S S A M B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th e n n o , y o u d o n o t n e e d t o c o r r e c t th a t .
M S S A M B O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ms S a m b o a t v a r i o u s

p o i n t s i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u s p e a k a b o u t t h e d i ffic u lt i e s t h a t y o u h a v e

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r e m e m b e r in g th e e x a c t s e q u e n c e o f s o m e o f t h e e v e n ts t h a t y o u s p e a k
a b o u t. Va r i o u s i m p l ic a te d p a r t i e s w h o h a v e s u b m i tt e d s t a te m e n ts a n d
m a d e a p p lic a ti o n s t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e h a v e p ic k e d u p o n t h is a n d o n t h e
b a s is o f t h a t t h e y s a y t h a t y o u s h o u l d n o t b e b e l i e v e d . S o , I w o u l d l ik e
t o b e g i n y o u r e v id e n c e b y a s k i n g y o u j u s t fi r s t to d e s c r i b e fo r th e
C o m m i s s i o n w h a t t h e m e m o r y i s s u e s a r e t h a t y o u s u ffe r fr o m .
M S S A M B O : O k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir I w o u l d
lik e t o d e a l w i t h a l l th e p e r s o n a l c o m m e n t s b e c a u s e I r e c e iv e d t h e
c o m m e n t s o n Fr i d a y.
10

I j u s t w a n t t o s t a te t h a t I h a v e m a d e m y s e l f c o m p le t e l y v u l n e r a b le b y
b e i n g h o n e s t a b o u t t h e c o n d i t io n a ff e c t i n g my m e n t a l h e a l t h w h ic h is
d e p r e s s i o n . A n d d e p r e s s i o n i s n o t a n e a s y s u b j e c t t o t a lk a b o u t a n d i t
is n o t d e p r e s s i o n t h a t I h a v e a l w a y s s u ffe r e d fr o m . B u t t h i s p a r tic u la r
c a s e w i t h A A R a n d S A AT h a s d r iv e n m e t o t h i s c o n d it i o n . I h a v e m a d e
t h e d i s c l o s u r e s o t h a t t h e Zo n d o C o m m is s io n a n d p a r t i e s r e a d i n g my
s t a te m e n t w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d m y s t r u g g l e t o c o m e to te r ms w i t h i t . I d o
n o t e x p e c t t o b e r i d ic u l e d b y t h e m e d i c a l c o n d i ti o n .

The depression

s t a te d w h e n I w a s d e a li n g w i th t h e s e t h i n g s th a t w e r e b e y o n d m y
c o n tr o l w i t h p e o p l e m o r e p o w e r fu l a n d in f l u e n ti a l th a n m y s e l f b e i n g th e
20

p e o p l e m e n ti o n e d i n my s t a t e m e n t .
I w a s t h e y o u n g e n tr e p r e n e u r w a n t i n g t o s u c c e e d a s a b l a c k f e m a le
owned business.

I w a s o v e r w h e l m e d b y p e o p l e I m e t w h o s a t in

p o s i ti o n s o f p o w e r. Th e b e tr a y a l b y w o m e n i n t h o s e p o s i t io n s o f p o w e r
w e n t t o t h e c o r e o f m y b e i n g . Th a t b e tr a y a l s e n t m e to th e - th is d a r k
h o l e o f d e p r e s s io n t h a t h a s s e e n m e i n d i ff e r e n t h o s p i t a l s i n a n d o u t f o r

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t h e la s t 4 y e a r s .
s e l e c t iv e

and

T h e a ll e g a ti o n s m a d e th a t m y l o s s o f m e m o r y is

convenient

shows

a

lack

of

understanding

and

c o m p a s s i o n f o r p e o p l e s u ffe r i n g w i t h d e p r e s s i o n .
W h e n th is c a s e w a s h a p p e n i n g , I r e a l is e d t h a t I a m a s m a l l p l a y e r.

I

a m a b la c k o w n e d s t a r t- u p c o m p a n y w a n ti n g t o b r e a k i n t o t h e i n d u s tr y,
a v e r y d i ff ic u l t i n d u s tr y o f a v i a t i o n . I l o o k e d u p t o p e o p l e o f p o w e r f o r
r e a l e m p o w e r m e n t a n d n o t c o r r u p ti o n .
naïve business women.

I w a s e n t h u s i a s ti c .

I was a

I tr u s t e d t h e v e r b a l a g r e e m e n t th a t i t w o u l d

m a t e r i a lis e . W h e n I w e n t to S A AT I w o u l d c o m p l e t e ly tr u s t t h e p e o p le
10

t h a t I h a v e m e t a t S A AT. I w a n t e d to b e t h e ir fr ie n d b e c a u s e I b e li e v e d
t h a t t h e y w o u l d g u i d e m e a n d a s s is t m e i n w h a t I w a n t e d t o a c h i e v e a s
a n e n t r e p r e n e u r.
A n d m y i n fo r m a t i o n h a s b e e n v e r y c o n s is t e n t w i t h o t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s
s u c h a s th e Er n s t a n d Yo u n g a n d O p e n Wa t e r s .

I w a s s t r u g g l in g to

e n f o r c e t h e c o n t r a c t w i th A A R a n d t h e d e t a i ls t h e r e o f w i ll b e d i s c u s s e d
la t e r. A n d th a t i s w h a t I a m p u t ti n g f o r w a r d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n . T h a n k
you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o , c a n y o u c la r i fy f o r m e w h a t t h e
20

m e m o r y is s u e s a r e th a t y o u d o s u ff e r fr o m ? D o y o u f o r g e t e v e n ts o r i s
it t h e d e t a il o r is i t t h e s e q u e n c e ?
M S S A M B O : I t is t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts t h a t s o m e I d o n o t r e m e m b e r
b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t w o u ld r e m in d m e .

This has

h a p p e n e d o v e r a f e w y e a r s a g o a n d w i t h t h e p a s s a g e o f ti m e m y
m e m o r y h a d d i m in is h e d . S o , i t is t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s b u t a w h o l e

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lo t o f t h i n g s I r e m e m b e r a n d I w i ll t a lk t o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I c o r r e c t to u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e t h a t
y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r a l l th e e v e n ts . W h a t y o u m i g h t n o t r e m e m b e r is t h e
s e q u e n c e o f h o w t h e y h a p p e n e d . W h i c h o n e h a p p e n e d fir s t , w h ic h o n e
c a m e a ft e r ?
M S S A M B O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r t h e e v e n t s t h a t th e y d i d ta k e

place?
M S S A M B O : M o s t o f th e e v e n ts I r e m e m b e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : M o s t o f t h e e v e n ts .
MS SAMBO:

W h e r e I d o n o t r e m e m b e r I w il l i n d ic a te t h a t I d o n o t

r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a r e y o u s a y in g y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y e v e n w it h

r e g a r d to th e s e q u e n c e , a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y t h a t i s b e c a u s e o f th e
d e p r e s s i o n o r a n d i t i s n o t s i m p ly b e c a u s e i t h a s b e e n fe w y e a r s s in c e
these things happened?
M S S A M B O : T h e p a s s a g e o f ti m e a n d t h e d e p r e s s i o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A c o m b i n a t i o n o f b o th .
M S S A M B O : A c o m b in a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M s S a m b o c a n w e p ic k i t
u p t h e n in y o u r a ffi d a v i t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 w h e r e y o u b e g i n to t a lk a b o u t
y o u r q u a l i fi c a t io n s .

C a n y o u ta k e u s t h r o u g h w h a t q u a l i fic a ti o n s y o u

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have?
M S S A M B O : I h o ld a B a c h e l o r o f A d m in is tr a ti o n f r o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f
Z u l u l a n d , a B a c h e l o r o f A d m i n is tr a ti o n H o n o u r s fr o m U N I S A , a n
A d v a n c e d Pr o g r a m i n O r g a n is a ti o n a l D e v e l o p m e n t fr o m U N I S A , a
M a r k e t in g C e r ti fi c a t e fr o m I n s ti t u te o f M a r k e ti n g M a n a g e m e n t , a M i n i n g
E x e c u t iv e P r e p a r a ti o n P r o g r a m fr o m W it s .

I a l s o c o m p le t e d a n

I n t e r n a ti o n a l E x e c u tiv e D e v e l o p m e n t P r o g r a m w i t h G I B B S a n d R o ll i n s
C o ll e g e i n t h e U n i t e d S t a te s o f A m e r ic a . I a m c u r r e n tl y r e g is t e r e d f o r
m y M a s t e r ’s D e g r e e w i t h G I B B S .
10

A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . A n d M s S a m b o h o w d id y o u g e t
in t o a v i a ti o n ?
M S S A M B O : I s t a r t e d S R S Av i a t i o n i n 2 0 0 4 . I a m a H u m a n R e s o u r c e s
p r a c ti t io n e r b y p r o fe s s i o n h o w e v e r I h a v e a lw a y s lo v e d a e r o p l a n e s .
T h e l o v e f o r a e r o p l a n e s h a s n e v e r le f t m y mi n d .

I come from

B u s h b u c k r id g e i n M p u m a l a n g a a n d m y m o t h e r t o o k m e t o b o a r d i n g
s c h o o l i n K w a Zu lu N a t a l , I n a n d a S e m i n a r y. A n d I r e m e m b e r b a c k t h e n I
u s e d t o f o r c e m y p a r e n t to b o o k m e a f l i g h t f r o m D u r b a n t o N e ls p r u i t
o n c e i n w h il e t h r e a t e n i n g t h a t I w il l f a i l i f t h e y d o n o t . A n d t h a t is h o w
m u c h I r e a ll y l o v e d a v ia t io n .
20

S o l a t e r o n , I a p p l i e d to b e c o m e a n a ir h o s t e s s n o w c a l le d c a b i n c r e w, I
w a s n e v e r s u c c e s s f u l b e c a u s e I h a v e a lw a y s b e e n b e lo w t h e h e i g h t th a t
t h e y r e q u ir e d .

And in- then I joined Human Resources department

b e c a u s e o f th e q u a li fi c a t io n I h a v e a lr e a d y i n d ic a te d , w o r k e d f o r
v a r io u s c o m p a n i e s . B u t p o s t 1 9 9 4 w h e n w e w e r e e n c o u r a g e d t o s t a r t
b u s i n e s s e s , f o r m e i t w a s a n o b r a i n e r b u t t o g o f o r w h a t l ie s w i t h i n my

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s o u l w h ic h i s t h e l o v e f o r a v ia t io n .
A n d i n 2 0 0 4 t h a t i s w h e n I r e g is t e r e d S R S Av i a t i o n , S R S b e in g my
in it i a ls S ib o n g i le R e jo y c e S a m b o . I t e n d e r e d f o r v a r i o u s b u s i n e s s e s i n
t h e i n d u s t r y a n d m y fir s t c o n tr a c t w a s w o r k i n g w i t h th e m ili t a r y to - in
p e a c e k e e p in g m is s i o n o p e r a ti o n s u s i n g t h o s e la r g e I L 7 6 a e r o p la n e s .
T h a t is h o w I b e g a n m y c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t o u t o f c u r i o s i ty, d i d y o u t h r e a t t o y o u r p a r e n t s ’

work?
MS SAMBO:
10

M y m o m is h e r e .

She can attest to that.

Ye s , I . ..

( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y t h e y d i d n o t b o o k y o u a f li g h t y o u

w o u ld f a i l.
M S S A M B O : T h e y d i d , I d i d fl y o n c e i n a w h il e to N e l s p r u it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

A n d s o , t e ll u s a li t tl e a b o u t w h a t S R S

Av i a ti o n d o e s .
M S S A M B O : O k a y. S R S Av ia t io n is t h e f i r s t 1 0 0 % b la c k f e m a l e o w n e d
a v i a ti o n c o m p a n y i n S o u th A f r ic a t h a t p r o v i d e s p r iv a t e je ts a n d
20

h e li c o p t e r s fu ll y li c e n s e d b y t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n C iv i li s a t io n A u th o r it y.
W e h a v e g o t a lic e n s e o n p a r t 1 3 5 , t h o s e a r e m e d i u m s iz e d t o la r g e
a e r o p l a n e s . P a r t 1 2 7 w h ic h i s h e lic o p te r o p e r a ti o n s , s in g le o p e r a t io n s
a n d w e a r e l ic e n s e d t o f ly b o t h lo c a ll y a n d a b r o a d .

So, we have got

d o m e s ti c a n d i n t e r n a ti o n a l lic e n s e s . A n d r e c e n tly w e h a v e a d d e d t h e
d r o n e s o n o u r l ic e n s e s .

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A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

A n d h o w d i d S R S , h o w d id i ts r e l a ti o n s h i p

w i t h t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s b e g i n ?
MS SA MBO:

In 2 0 0 9 w h e n t h e r e w a s a n e c o n o m ic m e l t d o w n a s S R S

Av i a ti o n , w e d e c i d e d t h a t w e w a n t e d t o e x p lo r e o th e r b u s in e s s
o p p o r t u n i ti e s w it h in t h e a v ia t io n in d u s tr y.

Most companies were not

fl y i n g e n o u g h w i th t h e p r iv a t e j e ts , th e y h a d g o n e b a c k t o fl y i n g t h r o u g h
a ir li n e s .

S o , w e d e c i d e d t o d iv e r s if y a n d o u r d i v e r s i f ic a t i o n s tr a te g y

w a s t o s u p p ly f u e l a n d a ls o t o s u p p ly a ir c r a ft p a r ts a n d c o m p o n e n ts .
S o , w e w e n t t o S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s t o g o a n d r e q u e s t f o r a n
10

enterprise development so that we can see if we can do business with
them.

Th e a g r e e m e n t w a s a t a v e r y a r m ’s l e n g t h b e c a u s e t h e y s a i d

t h e y c o u l d o n ly o ff e r u s o ff ic e s a t S A A A i r w a y s p a r k .

S o , o u r o ff ic e s

w e r e b a s e d th e r e b u t i n t e r m s o f b u s i n e s s w e n e e d e d t o f o l l o w a ll
procurement processes.

S o , g o i n g fr o m S A A t o S A A Te c h n ic a l i t w a s

t h e in t e r e s t n o w o f s u p p l y i n g t h e s e a ir c r a f t p a r t s a n d c o m p o n e n t s . A n d
w e i n t r o d u c e d S R S Av i a ti o n o n th e d a t a b a s e w h e r e o n a d a il y b a s is w e
r e c e i v e d q u o t a ti o n s t o s u p p ly a ir c r a f t p a r ts a n d c o m p o n e n ts .

Th e n I

w i ll t a lk la t e r a b o u t t h e o t h e r p a r ts o f t h e c o m p o n e n ts .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :
20

Yo u m e n ti o n a n e n t e r p r i s e d e v e l o p m e n t

a g r e e m e n t . W h a t d id t h a t p r o v id e fo r ?
M S S A M B O : T h e e n t e r p r is e d e v e l o p m e n t c o n tr a c t t h a t w e s ig n e d t h e n
w i t h S A A p r o v i d e d o n ly t h e o ff ic e s p a c e . I b r o u g h t i n my o w n f u r n i t u r e .
W e c o u l d n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o t h e ir t e l e p h o n e s o w e u s e d o u r o w n
m o b i l e p h o n e s . W e u s e d o u r o w n i n t e r n e t . S o , th e o n ly t h i n g t h a t t h e y
p r o v i d e d w a s o ff ic e s p a c e a n d t h e y w ill c l a i m t h e i r B E E e n t e r p r i s e

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d e v e l o p m e n t p o in t s o n t h e i r B E E s c o r e c a r d .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

And I think your evidence is that the-

in c l u d e d w i th t h e o ffi c e s p a c e w a s a c c e s s t o b o a r d r o o m f a c il it i e s .
M S S A M B O : Ye s . W e h a d a c c e s s t o b o a r d r o o m f a c il i ti e s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

Ms S a m b o c a n y o u t e l l u s a b o u t t h i s

d e l e g a ti o n th a t y o u w e n t o n ?

Yo u w e n t o n a d e le g a ti o n t o t h e U n it e d

S t a te s .
M S S A M B O : O n t h e 2 4 t h t o th e 2 8 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 11 I w a s p a r t o f t h e
S o u th A fr ic a n d e le g a ti o n .
10

T h e i n v i ta t io n c a m e fr o m M s N o m v u m e

M a g a q a w h o w a s t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n A m b a s s a d o r w h o i n a u g u r a t e d t h e
U S S o u th A fr ic a W o m e n B u s i n e s s F o r u m t h a t w a s to b e h e l d i n
C h ic a g o - t h a t w a s h e l d i n C h ic a g o in t h e U n it e d S t a te s o f A m e r ic a .
S R S Av i a ti o n w a s i n v i te d a s o n e o f t h e c o m p a n i e s th a t a c c o m p a n i e d
t h e n h o n o u r a b l e M s L u l u X in g w a n a a n d o t h e r h o n o u r a b l e D e p u t y
M i n is t e r s t o C h ic a g o fo r t h i s t r i p .
P a r t o f t h e i n v i t a ti o n w h e n t h e D T I in v i t e y o u in t o a m is s io n , t h e y g iv e
y o u w h e r e t h e m is s io n i s g o i n g a n d w h a t th e y e x p e c t to a c h i e v e fr o m
t h e m i s s i o n . A n d th e y g iv e u s ti m e t o in d i c a t e w h ic h c o m p a n i e s a r e w e
in t e r e s te d to b e i n tr o d u c e d t o w h e r e th e m is s i o n i s g o i n g t o . A n d f o r

20

m e o n e o f t h e c o m p a n ie s w a s A A R C o r p o r a ti o n in C h ic a g o .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I w a n t t o g e t t o t h a t in a m o m e n t b u t j u s t t e l l
m e h o w y o u c a m e t o b e i n v o lv e d i n th e d e le g a ti o n .

How were you

s e l e c t e d o r d i d y o u a p p ly ?
M S S A M B O : N o , a t t h a t t i m e th e D T I a lr e a d y h a d S R S Av ia t io n o n t h e ir
d a t a b a s e a s a n e n tr e p r e n e u r i n t h e a e r o s p a c e s e c t o r a n d w e n o r m a l ly

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
ju s t r e c e iv e d i n v i t a ti o n s .

A n d s o m e t i m e s t h e y s e n t a n d in v i t a t i o n b u t

y o u m u s t s t il l f ill in a n a p p l ic a ti o n f o r m t o p a r tic i p a t e o n t h a t m is s i o n .
B e c a u s e t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y h a d o r s t il l h a v e a n
E M I A s c h e m e w h ic h w i ll t a k e c a r e o f a l l t h e c o s t i n v o lv e d . T h e fl i g h ts ,
t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n , t h e s t i p e n d w h i ls t w e a r e a w a y.

So, we were

in v i te d a n d w e f o l lo w e d a l l th e n e c e s s a r y p r o c e s s e s to p a r tic ip a t e o n
t h e m is s i o n s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d o y o u s a y t h a t y o u id e n ti fi e d A A R a s a
p o t e n t i a l p a r t n e r. W h a t d id y o u k n o w a b o u t A A R a t t h a t s t a g e ?
10

M S S A M B O : W h a t I r e a d o n t h e i n t e r n e t fr o m th e ir w e b s i t e , w h a t t h e y
provide.

T h a t t h e y a r e a v e r y b i g c o m p a n y.

T h e y a r e n o t o n ly in

C h ic a g o .

A n d b e c a u s e I w a n t e d to d i v e r s i fy i n to th a t s p a c e i t m a d e

s e n s e f o r m e th a t w h ils t w e a r e i n C h i c a g o w h e r e th e ir h e a d q u a r t e r s
a r e , i t w il l m a k e s e n s e f o r m e t o b e i n tr o d u c e d a n d s e e i f w e c a n f o r g e
a w o r k i n g r e la t io n s h i p .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d .. . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, d i d y o u c o m e a c r o s s t h e ir n a m e a f te r y o u
k n e w a b o u t th e d e le g a ti o n o r t h e tr ip t h a t w a s g o i n g to h a p p e n ? O r y o u
h a d d o n e s o m e r e s e a r c h a n d j u s t c a m e a c r o s s th e m m u c h e a r l i e r t h a n
20

that?
M S S A M B O : N o , i t w a s a r o u n d t h a t s a m e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s c o n n e c t e d w it h k n o w i n g t h a t .
MS SA MBO:

Ye s , b e c a u s e I w a s l o o k i n g f o r a c o m p a n y th a t s u p p ly

a ir c r a f t p a r t s i n C h ic a g o th e n t h e ir n a m e p o p p e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t s o r t o f s tr a t e g i c p a r t n e r s h i p w e r e
y o u i n te r e s t e d i n ?
MS SA MBO:

I w a n t e d to b e c o m e th e ir p a r t n e r, a f u l l p a r t n e r i n th is

e n v ir o n m e n t . W h e n I s a y t h is e n v i r o n m e n t , i n S o u t h A fr i c a w it h a n a i m
t o e x p a n d t o t h e r e s t o f t h e A fr ic a n c o n ti n e n t. S o , w h e n I w e n t to t h e m ,
I w a n t e d t o i n v i te t h e m t o e x p l o r e b u s i n e s s o p p o r t u n i ti e s i n A f r i c a w it h
S R S Av ia t io n a s th e i r p a r t n e r.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d a s p a r t o f t h is d e l e g a t i o n d i d y o u h a v e
t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to m e e t w i th p e o p le a t A A R ?
10

MS SAMBO:

Ye s , o n t h e s e c o n d d a y o f t h e a c ti v i t ie s w e w e r e

tr a n s p o r t e d t o th e d i ff e r e n t c o m p a n i e s t h a t w e w a n t e d t o s e e a n d I w e n t
s tr a ig h t to A A R w i t h s o m e m e m b e r s f r o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d
I n d u s tr y i n C h i c a g o t h e Tr a d e D i v is i o n . S o y e s , I w a s i n tr o d u c e d t o M s
Cheryle Jackson and some of her managers at AAR.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u s a y in y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u s h a r e d
a s tr a te g y w it h t h e m a b o u t p o te n t ia lly c o ll a b o r a ti n g to s e c u r e b u s i n e s s
w i t h S A A Te c h n i c a l .

C a n y o u ju s t fir s t ju s t te ll u s a b i t a b o u t S A A

Te c h n i c a l . W h a t d o e s i t d o ?
MS SAMBO:
20

S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l t h e y p r o v i d e t e c h n i c a l

s e r v ic e s t o S A A a n d o t h e r t h ir d p a r ti e s , o th e r a ir l i n e s l ik e A n g o la n
A ir li n e i t u s e d t o b e t h e i r c li e n t s . Z i m b a b w e A i r l in e s a n d a w h o le l o t o f
in t e r n a t io n a l a ir li n e s . S o , S A A Te c h n i c a l w o u ld p r o v i d e w h a t y o u c a l l C
c h e c k s a n d B c h e c k s t h a t is v e y te c h n ic a l . I th in k i t is , I d o n o t k n o w
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : G i v e u s a n id e a w h a t i t i s .

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M S S A M B O : I t is l ik e w h e n y o u t a k e y o u r c a r t o s e r v ic e w h e t h e r i t is a
m a jo r s e r v i c e o r a m in o r s e r v ic e . S o , S A A Te c h n ic a l w o u ld p r o v id e . ..
( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o v id e t h a t k in d o f s e r v i c e .
M S S A M B O : T h a t k i n d o f s e r v ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o a n a e r o p l a n e .
M S S A M B O : Ye s . A n d w h a t w a s p r o fo u n d a b o u t S A A Te c h n i c a l is t h a t
a t th a t ti m e t h e y h a d a l o t o f th ir d - p a r t y c li e n ts . S o , w i t h m y s tr a t e g y
t o e n t e r t h is m a r k e t u s in g S A A Te c h n i c a l, i t w o u ld b e e a s ie r t o g e t
10

a c c e s s t o t h e a i r l in e s th a t t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y s i g n e d u p to s e r v ic e t h e ir
aeroplanes.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

And what role did you see AAR playing in

that partnership?
MS SA MBO:

I a m n o t a t e c h n ic a l p e r s o n .

S R S Av ia t io n a t th a t ti m e

d i d n o t h a v e a n y e x p e r i e n c e o n t h e t e c h n ic a l s e r v ic e s a n d I e x p e c te d
A A R t o c o m e w i t h t e c h n ic a l e x p e r ti s e .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u m e n t io n e d M s J a c k s o n a s a p e r s o n t h a t
y o u m e t, w h a t w a s h e r p o s it i o n ?

I t h in k y o u s a y i t in p a r a g r a p h 9 o f

y o u r a ff i d a v i t .
20

MS SAMBO:

S h e w a s t h e Vi c e P r e s i d e n t , G o v e r n m e n t A ff a i r s a n d

C o r p o r a te D e v e l o p m e n t .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e th e n g o t o t h e p a r a g r a p h 11 w h e r e
y o u s a y A A R w a s n o t i n te r e s t e d i n a n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b e f o r e s h e d o e s t h a t , I th in k e a r l ie r o n y o u

in t e r r u p t e d h e r b e f o r e s h e c o u l d s a y w h a t s to r y s h e p r e s e n t e d t o Ms

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
Jackson.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I a p o lo g i s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o , t e ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n y o u m e t M s

Jackson? What did you say to her and what was her response to your
p r o p o s a l o r r e q u e s t o r s u g g e s ti o n ?
MS SAMBO:

I in tr o d u c e d S R S Av ia t io n a s a n a i r c h a r te r c o m p a n y in

S o u th A f r ic a t h a t i s c u r r e n tl y o r t h a t w a n t s to d iv e r s i fy a n d o n e o f t h e
d iv e r s i fi c a t io n a r e a s is to p r o v i d e t e c h n i c a l s e r v i c e s t o t h e i n d u s tr y.
A n d g i v e n t h e f a c ts th a t w e d i d n o t h a v e t e c h n ic a l e x p e r t is e a n d h a v e
10

n e v e r p r o v i d e d s u c h a s e r v ic e , w e w a n t e d t o p a r t n e r w i t h t h e m a s A A R
C o r p o r a ti o n . A n d w e p r o p o s e d v a r i o u s w a y s in w h ic h w e c o u l d p a r t n e r
a n d o n e o f t h e m i s t h a t th e y s i g n a n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t w it h S R S
Av i a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h e y s i g h e d s u c h a n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t , w h a t w o u ld
t h a t h a v e e n t a il e d in t e r m s o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p o r t h e p a r t n e r s h i p ?
M S S A M B O : I t w o u l d h a v e g i v e n u s .. . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a p r a c ti c a l l e v e l .
M S S A M B O : I t w o u l d h a v e g iv e n u s a s o l id , w h a t d o I c a ll i t? I c o u ld
b e a b l e t o g o a n d m a r k e t A A R c o n fi d e n t ly t h a t t h e y a r e m y p a r t n e r.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , w o u l d i t h a v e e n a b le d S R S t o g o t o S A A a n d a n y
o th e r a e r o p la n e c o m p a n y a n d s a y w e a r e a b l e t o p r o v id e t e c h n ic a l
s e r v ic e s ,

te c h n ic a l e x p e r t is e

partnership with AAR.

for

a e r o p la n e s

because

we

are

in

A n d t h e n if t h e r e w a s w o r k to b e d o n e .. .

( in t e r v e n e s )
MS SAMBO:

M s J a c k s o n in d i c a t e d t h a t a s A A R t h e y d o n o t s ig n a n y

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
a g e n c y a g r e e m e n ts w i th fo r e ig n c o m p a n ie s b u t t h e y w o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t
I g o b a c k a n d g e t to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e c o n t r a c t o r w a s ta lk in g a b o u t
a t S A A Te c h n ic a l a n d g i v e t h e m th e d e t a i ls w h a t d o e s i t e n t a il . H o w b i g
is t h e c o n tr a c t ?

A n d a l s o i n t r o d u c e t h e m t o S A A Te c h n i c a l .

So, but

w h e n I r e t u r n e d t o S o u t h A fr ic a t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n w a s n o t f l o w i n g
e a s y b e t w e e n A A R a n d S R S a s I w o u ld h a v e l o v e d to h a v e a s o l id
r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d c o m m u n ic a ti o n c h a n n e l .

Then I had to go back ...

( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e ll b e fo r e y o u g o b a c k , le t u s f in is h th e m e e ti n g .

T h e fi r s t m e e t in g y o u h a v e w i t h M s J a c k s o n . S o , y o u p u t y o u r p r o p o s a l
and your proposal was one of a partnership.
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n w h e n s h e d i d n o t li k e t h a t , y o u t h e n

s u g g e s t e d a n a g e n c y. Is th a t c o r r e c t o r d o I mi s u n d e r s t a n d s o m e t h i n g ?
M S S A M B O : Ye s , a n a g e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t h o w i t w e n t?
M S S A M B O : Ye s , I p r o p o s e d t o b e c o m e th e ir a g e n t i n A f r i c a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in r e s p o n s e t o t h a t d i d s h e s a y w e c a n lo o k i n to
t h a t b u t y o u m u s t g o b a c k a n d g iv e u s m o r e d e ta il s ?
M S S A M B O : S h e d i d n o t s a y th e y w o u l d l o o k a t t h a t b u t s h e i n d i c a t e d
t h a t it is - t h e r e is a p o li c y t h a t t h e y h a v e in t h e U n i t e d S t a te s t h a t
governs the agency agreements with foreign companies. And so, they
d o n o t s ig n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t b e f o r e t h e d e a l i s o n t h e t a b l e .

Page 201 of 204

So ...

04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , d i d s h e s a y, w e w a n t t o k n o w m o r e a b o u t th e d e a l
t h a t w e m i g h t g e t th r o u g h y o u ?

A n d t h e n i f w e l ik e i t , w e m ig h t

c o n s i d e r s ig n in g .
M S S A M B O : T h e y w a n t e d y e s t o k n o w m o r e a b o u t t h e c o n tr a c ts a t S A A
Te c h n i c a l a n d t h e y w a n t e d t o b e i n tr o d u c e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h e y c o u ld c o n s id e r s ig n i n g a n y t h i n g .
10

M S S A M B O : T h e y w e r e v e r y c l e a r f r o m t h e b e g in n in g th a t th e y w o u ld
p a y u p to 8 % o f th e v a l u e o f th e c o n tr a c t t h e d a y th e y g e t t h e c o n tr a c t .
S o , t h e r e w a s n o - t h e y d i d n o t p r o m is e m e t h a t i n b e t w e e n t h e y w i ll
s ig n a n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S S A M B O : S o i t w a s a v e r b a l a g r e e m e n t a n d it w a s u p t o m e t o s a y
t h e n I s to p I d o n o t d o a n y th i n g o r a s a n e n tr e p r e n e u r I g o a n d r u n
a r o u n d a n d g e t i n fo r m a ti o n a n d g o b a c k t o t h e m s o t h a t th e y c a n tr u s t
a n d b e li e v e w h a t I a m s a y i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

W o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y th a t y o u p a r te d w i th M s

J a c k s o n o n t h e b a s is t h a t h e r a tt i t u d e w a s th a t i n p r in c i p l e t h e r e w a s a
p o s s i b il it y t h a t t h e y c o u l d s ig h a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h y o u b u t t h e y n e e d e d
m o r e in f o r m a t io n a n d s o m e t h i n g m o r e w o u l d n e e d to b e d o n e b e f o r e
t h e y c o u ld c o n s id e r t h a t . W o u l d t h a t b e a fa ir s u m m a r y o f h e r a t t it u d e
o r n o t r e a ll y ?
M S S A M B O : A t th e m e e t in g t h e y d i d in d i c a t e t h a t a s a c o m p a n y th e y

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04 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 206
a ls o t o o k a s tr a t e g y to e x p lo r e t h e A f r i c a n c o n ti n e n t . S o , I c a m e a t t h e
r ig h t ti m e t o ta lk t o t h e m .

H o w e v e r, th e y w e r e v e r y c l e a r t h a t t h e y

w o u ld n o t s ig n a n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t w i th S R S Av i a ti o n b u t o n ly w h e n
t h e d a y w e g e t t h a t c o n tr a c t , t h e y w il l p a y u p t o 8 % o f t h e v a lu e o f th a t
c o n tr a c t to S R S a s a c o m m i s s i o n f o r t h e w o r k d o n e a n d a ls o p a r t n e r
w i t h u s a s th e i r B E E p a r tn e r.

B e c a u s e t h e n w e h a d - I h a d t o e x p l a in

t h a t th e y n e e d B l a c k E c o n o m ic E m p o w e r m e n t a n d y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o is t h e p o s it i o n th e r e fo r e th a t t h e y s a i d o n e , w e

c a n n o t s ig n a p a r tn e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t w i t h y o u .
10

M S S A M B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Tw o , w e c a n n o t s i g n a n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t w i t h y o u

b u t t h r e e , i f y o u g o b a c k h o m e a n d g e t m o r e d e t a ils a n d in tr o d u c e u s t o
S A A Te c h n i c a l a n d w e s i g n a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h S A A Te c h n ic a l . O n e , w e
c a n p a y y o u 8 % . Tw o , w e c a n h a v e y o u a s a B E E p a r tn e r. W o u l d t h a t
b e a fa ir s u m m a r y o f w h a t t h e y s a i d ?
MS SAMBO: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, I a m g r a t e fu l f o r t h a t .

C h a ir, I s e e w e h a v e g o n e p a s t 1 6 : 3 0 .
20

T h is w o u l d b e a n a p p r o p r i a t e

ti m e w it h in t h e e v id e n c e t o a d j o u r n .
CHAIRPERSON:

To a d jo u r n .

O k a y a lr i g h t.

W e a r e g o in g t o a d j o u r n

t h e n a n d th e n t o m o r r o w s h o u ld w e s ta r t a t 1 0 :0 0 ?

How long are we

lik e l y t o b e w i t h h e r a n d s h o u l d w e s t a r t e a r ly ?
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

C h a i r I a n t ic i p a te w e w i ll t a k e m o s t o f t h e

d a y w i th M s S a m b o .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d o n o t n e e d to s t a r t e a r ly ?
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

I d o n o t a n ti c ip a t e th a t w e n e e d to s ta r t

e a r ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e d o n o t h a v e a n o t h e r w i t n e s s s c h e d u le d
f o r t o m o r r o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t is o n ly M s S a m b o a n d I a m c o n f i d e n t w e
w i ll fi n i s h h e r w i t h i n t h a t t i m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o t h a t is fi n e . W e w il l a d j o u r n M s S a m b o a n d
r e s u m e to m o r r o w a t 1 0 o ’c l o c k .
M S S A M B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , y o u w il l c o m e b a c k t o m o r r o w a t 1 0 : 0 0 . W e t h e n
adjourn.
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 5 F E B R U A R Y 2 0 2 0

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