C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

04 JUNE 2019

D AY 1 0 5

20

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
PROCEEDINGS ON 4 JUNE 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s w e a r e r e a d y t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Th a n k y o u .

M r C h a ir m a n

m a y b e ju s t b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d w i t h t h e w i t n e s s w e h a v e j u s t p l a c e d
a n o t h e r p r e s e n t a t i o n f il e b e f o r e y o u w h ic h i s E x h i b i t C C 1 [ e ].
10

W e w i ll

d e a l w i th i t l a te r b u t th is is th e a ffi d a v i t o f M r W il li a m s w h ic h w a s
s u b m i tt e d y e s te r d a y. N o w i t h a s b e e n p r o p e r ly p a g in a t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : I t h a s b e e n p l a c e d b e fo r e y o u .
Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Thank you. May Mr Sundaram

b e r e m i n d e d th a t h e i s s ti ll u n d e r o a t h ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w e h a v e n o t b e e n r e m i n d i n g …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A n y o n e o h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m b u t h e k n o w s t h a t h e h a s t a k e n a n o a t h to g iv e
h is e v i d e n c e tr u th f u l ly a n d h o n e s t ly a n d th a t a p p l i e s u n t il h e h a s
fi n i s h e d h is e v id e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 2 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Before you start Ms Norman.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u s t w a n t t o – y e s t e r d a y I r e f e r r e d t o p a r t o f th e

e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s g iv e n b y Mr T h e m b a M a s e k o .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e t h is c o m m i s s i o n w h e n I n o t e d M r S u n d a r a m ’s
10

e v i d e n c e i n h is s t a te m e n t [e x c u s e m e ] w h ic h w a s to t h e e ff e c t th a t I
t h i n k M r A t u l G u p t a s a i d t h a t h e c o u l d g e t a n y n a ti o n a l o r p r o v in c i a l
m i n is t e r t o c o m e t o th e b r e a k f a s t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th e b r e a k f a s t b r i e fi n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B r i e fi n g s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t t h e y h e ld .

I s a id I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r th a t M r

T h e m b a M a s e k o g a v e e v i d e n c e to th e e ff e c t t h a t i n h is m e e ti n g w i t h M r
A j a y G u p t a M r Aj a y G u p ta t o l d h i m th a t h e o r th e y t h a t i s t h e G u p ta
f a m ily c o u l d g e t a n y m i n i s te r t o o r c o u ld c a l l a n y m i n is te r – I j u s t w a n t
20

t o – I t h in k I d i d fi n d t h e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th e r e f e r e n c e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e f e r e n c e a n d I ju s t w a n t t o – t o r e a d i t s o t h a t I
d o n o t m i s r e p r e s e n t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t M r T h e m b a M a s e k o s a id . I t is a t p a r a g r a p h 2 8

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
o f h is s t a t e m e n t w h ic h is a t E x h i b i t E 1 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
c o m m i s s io n .

P a r a g r a p h – p a g e 1 8 o f E x h i b i t E 1 b e f o r e th is

B e f o r e p a r a g r a p h 2 8 M r M a s e k o d e a ls w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t

h e e x p la i n e d t o Mr A j a y G u p ta h o w t h i n g s w o r k e d i n r e g a r d to
a d v e r t is e m e n t f r o m t h e g o v e r n m e n t s id e .

Then he says at paragraph

27 and 28:
“ H e d i s m is s e d b y e x p la n a ti o n a n d p r o c e e d e d t o t e ll
m e t h a t m y jo b is to g o a n d i d e n t i fy, c o l le c t a n d
10

a l lo c a t e a ll th e c o m m u n i c a t io n b u d g e t a m o u n t s in th e
v a r io u s d e p a r t m e n ts to h i s c o m p a n y. ”
Paragraph 28 that was 27: Paragraph 28 he says:
“ H e , t h a t is M r A ja y G u p t a t h e n t o l d m e t h a t I s h o u ld
le t h i m k n o w i f a n y d e p a r t m e n t o r m in is t e r g iv e s m e
a n y p r o b l e ms a n d h e w o u l d d e a l w i t h t h e m d ir e c tly. I
a s k e d h i m t o e l a b o r a t e a n d h e t o l d m e t h a t h e w il l
p e r s o n a l ly s u m m o n a n d d e a l w it h a n y m i n is t e r w h o
d o e s n o t c o o p e r a t e i n th is r e g a r d . ”
Then he says:

20

“ I t h e n o b j e c t e d to t h e w a y h e w a s t a l k in g a b o u t
m i n is t e r s i n s u c h d e r o g a to r y te r ms .

He seemed

o b li v i o u s t o t h e p o i n t I w a s m a k i n g a n d e m p h a s i s e d
t h a t h e c o u l d d e a l w i th a n y m i n is te r w h o d i d n o t c o operate.”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e p a r t t h a t I w a s i n te r e s t e d i n is t h e o n e w h e r e
M r M a s e k o s a i d M r A j a y G u p t a s a id h e c o u l d p e r s o n a ll y s u m m o n a n d
d e a l w it h a n y m in is t e r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o d i d n o t c o - o p e r a te .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I j u s t w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e I a m n o t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s t o p la c e i t o n r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M i s r e p r e s e n ti n g w h a t M r M a s e k o s a id .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h a n k
y o u . M r S u n d a r a m w i ll y o u p l e a s e t u r n – l o o k a t E x h i b i t C C 1 [a ] a n d [ b ] .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W e g o b a c k t o y o u r m a in

s t a te m e n t a g a in .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A t t h e p a r t – y o u h a v e c o v e r e d
a l l o f t h e e v id e n c e t h a t is i n p a r a g r a p h s 1 r i g h t u p t o 1 7 a n d t h i s
20

m o r n in g w e – I w o u l d l ik e to r e f e r y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 1 8 w h e r e y o u d e a l
w i t h t h e S A B C a r c h iv e d e a l .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

C o u l d y o u ju s t te ll t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h i s d e a l ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: U m .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry you referred to paragraph 18?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : P a r a g r a p h 1 8 , 1 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f h i s s ta t e m e n t?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

O f h is – y e s o f h i s m a in

s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : I t i s g o t a s u b - h e a d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . J a I f o u n d it .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Yo u f o u n d i t . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

C h a ir m a n s o t h is w a s a d e a l th a t I g o t t o

k n o w o f w h e n I w a s i n I n d i a a n d Mr L a x m i G o e l s a id th a t t h e y h a d a
very sweet deal for archives because that was one of my worries when
y o u s e t u p a s t a ti o n y o u n e e d a r c h i v e s t o s t a r t w i th o t h e r w is e y o u k n o w
e s p e c i a l ly w h e n y o u a r e – w h e n y o u h a v e a n [i n d is t in c t ] w h e r e y o u
h a v e r iv a l s w h o e x is t e d f o r m a n y y e a r s . S o t h e y h a d a v e r y r e v e r s e d
a r c h i v e . S o t h a t w a s o n e o f m y w o r r i e s . S o w h a t Mr L a x m i G o e l s a i d
w a s th a t th e G u p t a b r o t h e r s a n d M r N a z e e m H o w a h a v e h a d a v e r y
sweet deal with the SABC where about 100 hours of footage would be
20

g iv e n a t th r o w a w a y p r ic e s . W h a t h e d e s c r ib e d a s p e a n u t s t h a t w e g e t
t h a t a t p e a n u ts a n d h e s a i d o n e o f m y i m m e d i a t e p r i o r i ti e s w o u l d b e t o
h ir e a n a r c h iv i s t a p r o fe s s i o n a l a r c h i v is t w h o c o u l d ta k e t h a t f o o ta g e
w h ic h w a s o n a n a l o g u e w i th S A B C a n d c o n v e r t i t i n to a d ig i ta l f o r m a t .
A n d h e s a i d th a t s h o u l d b e d o n e a s s o o n p o s s i b le y o u k n o w w i t h t h e –
t h a t N a z e e m w o u l d h a v e t h e e d i t o r ia l te a m fr o m t h e T N A s a t d o w n a n d

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
m a k e a l is t o f a l l th e a r c h iv e h i s t o r ic a l v a l u e t h a t is r e q u ir e d .

Also

c o n te m p o r a r y fo o t a g e – f o o t a g e fo r i n s t a n c e o f t h e M a r ik a n a i n c i d e n t o f
r e c e n t n e w s m a k e r s lik e J u l iu s M a l e m a f o r i n s t a n c e a n d a ll o f t h a t lis t
w a s c r e a te d b y M r N a z e e m H o w a w it h t h e e d i to r i a l s ta ff a t t h e T N A .
A n d th is w a s g i v e n o u t t o a p e r s o n c a ll e d R a h u l S i n g h .

Now Rahul

S i n g h w a s a n a r c h iv is t w h o h a s m a n y y e a r s o f e x p e r ie n c e h a d c o m e
fr o m I n d i a . H e i s c u r r e n t ly th e C h i e f A r c h i v is t a t t h e I n d i a To d a y G r o u p
w h ic h is o n e o f th e l a r g e s t te l e v i s i o n n e t w o r k s . S o h e w a s a s k e d t o g o
w i t h w h a t a r e k n o w n a s m i n i D V ta p e s b e c a u s e t h e – a n d g o to S A B C
10

o v e r a p e r i o d o f a b o u t a m o n th a n d r e c o r d f o r a b o u t e i g h t h o u r s fo o t a g e
t h a t w a s th e r e a n d g e t t h a t b a c k t o th e o ffi c e . O v e r t h e w e e k e n d s h e
w o u ld d ig i ti s e i t w h ic h is b a s ic a ll y t a k i n g it f r o m t a p e a n d p u t ti n g i t o n
a s e r v e r s o t h a t i t c o u l d b e u s e d fo r b r o a d c a s t . N o w t h is w a s a li t tl e
s u r p r is i n g fo r m e b e c a u s e th e S A B C w a s s e t to la u n c h i ts o w n
t e l e v i s i o n s t a ti o n a n d w e w e r e p o t e n t i a l ly a r iv a l f o r t h a t s ta t io n . F o r
t h e m t o a t t h a t p o in t ta k e a p o li c y d e c is i o n to g iv e a h u g e s u p p ly o f
o x y g e n to a p o t e n ti a l r i v a l t h r o u g h t h i s a r c h i v a l f o o ta g e w a s s o m e t h in g
t h a t c a m e t o m e a s – y o u k n o w I w a s v e r y p u z z le d a b o u t w h y t h e y
w o u ld d o i t . A l s o I w a s t o l d b y N a z e e m i n d is c u s s i o n s y o u k n o w s o h e

20

w o u ld b o a s t a b o u t it t h a t y o u k n o w t h i s i s a d e a l th a t h e g o t d o n e
t h r o u g h h is i n fl u e n c e th a t t h e y d id n o t h a v e t o p a y a l o t o f b r i b e s i t w a s
d o n e o h w e ll t a k i n g p e o p l e o u t f o r a m e a l o r b u y i n g t h e m d r i n k s .
B e c a u s e j u s t t h e n a m e o f t h e G u p t a ’s t h a t th e y a r e b e h in d i t a n d t h e
f a c t th a t th e w h o le w o r ld k n e w th a t th e y h a d t h e b l e s s in g s a n d t h e
b a c k i n g o f t h e P r e s id e n t w o u l d m a k e th i n g s v e r y e a s y f o r t h e m . S o h e

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
w a s v e r y e x c i t e d a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t h e h a d g o t s u c h a b r i ll ia n t d e a l .
W h a t w a s a l s o m a k i n g – y o u k n o w w h e n w e h a d c o n v e r s a t i o n s in th e
e x e c u tiv e c o m m i t te e o r o t h e r w i s e w a s th e f a c t t h a t h e s a i d t h e y a r e s o
s t u p i d th a t th e y h a v e g iv e n u s a d e a l w h e r e – w h i c h in v o lv e s t w o p a r ts .
O n e w a s t h e a c t u a l p u r c h a s e a t a p r ic e b u t a ls o e v e r y ti m e t h a t A N N 7
u s e d th a t f o o ta g e t h e r e w a s s o m e r o y a l ti e s t o b e p a i d t o S A B C .

But

t h e y d id t h a t w i t h o u t h a v i n g a n e ff e c t iv e s y s te m i n p l a c e w h ic h c o u ld
m o n i t o r h o w m a n y s e c o n d s o r m in u t e s o f t h e f o o t a g e w a s b e i n g u s e d .
S o h is a s s e r t io n a t t h a t ti m e w a s th a t t h e y a r e s tu p id b e c a u s e t h e y d o
10

n o t h a v e t h a t m o n i t o r i n g s y s te m a n d i t is e n t ir e ly u p u s . W e m a y h a v e
u s e d s a y o n e h o u r fo o t a g e o v e r a m o n t h b u t w e w ill y o u k n o w d is c l o s e
t h a t w e u s e d a b o u t a m i n u te a n d p a y f o r a m i n u t e a n d g e t a w a y w i th
the – or even say that we did not use anything. There is no way that
the SABC could then know what it was.

Yo u k n o w h o w m u c h fo o t a g e

w a s u s e d . S o – s o – s o o v e r a p e r io d o f ti m e t h is is h o w i t h a p p e n e d
y o u k n o w. S o R a h u l w o u l d g o o v e r w i t h a b u n c h o f t a p e s e v e r y d a y to
t h e S A B C o ff i c e . T h e r e w o u l d b e a n e d i t s y s t e m t h a t w o u l d b e g iv e n t o
h i m t o c o p y t h e fo o t a g e . Th e fo o ta g e w a s t h e n v e r y n e a tly s i n c e h e is a
p r o f e s s i o n a l a r c h iv is t h e w o u ld m e t a ta g t h e w h o le t h i n g .
20

He would

c a t e g o r is e i t u n d e r v a r io u s y o u k n o w p o l i t ic a l , s p o r ts , h is t o r i c a r c h iv e s
a n d k e e p i t t h e r e a n d a l s o w h a t h e w il l t e l l m e i s t h a t t h e f o o t a g e th a t –
t h a t t h e A N N 7 h a d a f t e r i t w a s a c q u ir e d fr o m S A B C w a s m u c h b e t t e r
o r g a n i s e d a n d d i g i t is e d . S o it w a s m u c h f a s t e r f o r u s t o u s e i t i n te r ms
o f b r e a k i n g n e w s o r p u ll o u t t h e f o o t a g e a n d p u t i t o n a ir – th a n e v e n
S A B C a t th a t t i m e b e c a u s e t h e S A B C a r c h i v e s w e r e s til l o n t a p e .

Page 8 of 127

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
w a s n o t o n s e r v e r li k e w h a t A N N 7 w a s d o in g fr o m d a y 1

So – so the

d e a l o f s u c h a n a t u r e i n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g I h a v e b e e n a t e l e v is io n
p r o f e s s i o n a l n o w fo r 2 6 y e a r s a n d I c a n t e l l y o u is th a t i f y o u b u y
f o o t a g e i t i s s o l d b y t h e s e c o n d a n d a r c h i v a l f o o t a g e is m u c h h i g h e r i n
v a l u e th a n c o n t e m p o r a r y f o o t a g e .

A ls o c o n te m p o r a r y f o o t a g e w h i c h

h a s g o t v e r y h ig h n e w s v a l u e f o r i n s t a n c e i f i t is th e a s s o n a ti o n o f a
h e a d o f s t a t e w h ic h h a s b e e n c a u g h t o n ta p e is m u c h h i g h e r v a l u e t h a n
– th a n f o o t a g e o f ju s t s a y a f e w b u i l d i n g s y o u k n o w th e p a r l ia m e n t o r
o th e r s .
10

S o w h a t s u r p r i s e d m e i n t h is d e a l t h a t t h e r e w a s o n e a b u lk

r a te t h a t w a s g iv e n a n d t h i s r a te w a s f o r a r c h iv a l f o o t a g e f o r f o o ta g e
t h a t w a s c o n t e m p o r a r y. F o r f o o t a g e th a t w a s b u il d i n g s a c r o s s t h e
n a t io n w h ic h I fo u n d w a s v e r y f u n n y. I n m y a s s e s s m e n t f o o ta g e o f t h is
n a t u r e w h i c h i s 1 0 0 h o u r s w o u ld c o s t i n t h e m i ll io n s o f d o ll a r s a n d w h a t
t h e y – w h a t t h e y g o t – t h e r a t e a t w h ic h th e y g o t i t w a s s o m e t h i n g
w h ic h w a s a t h r o w a w a y p r i c e w h ic h w a s s o m e th i n g w h i c h w a s d o n e a s
a favour and in my understanding and m y conversations with Nazeem
a n d t h e G u p ta b r o th e r s i t w a s d o n e b e c a u s e t h e o ffi c i a l s a t S A B C k n e w
t h a t th e G u p t a b r o t h e r s w e r e c l o s e t o Pr e s id e n t Z u m a a n d th e y d i d n o t
w a n t t o c o m e i n t h e w a y o f a n y th i n g o r d id n o t w a n t to fa c e a n y

20

c o n s e q u e n c e s o f s h o w i n g a n y r e s i s ta n c e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o a t t h e t i m e w h e n R a h u l
w a s v i s i ti n g th e S A B C y o u w e r e a lr e a d y w i t h i n t h e c o u n tr y, a m I r i g h t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u s a y t h a t y o u h a d
w i t n e s s e d h i m g o in g to t h e S A B C f o r a b o u t a m o n t h ?

Page 9 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Would he come – would he

le a v e y o u r o ffic e s i n t h e m o r n i n g a n d c o m e b a c k in th e a f t e r n o o n s
e v e r y d a y o r h o w – o r h o w d o y o u a r r iv e a t a m o n t h ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Yo u s e e a s fa r a s I r e m e m b e r w e – i t w a s

a b o u t s ix y e a r s a g o h e w o u l d g o i n t h e m o r n i n g a n d h e w o u ld b e a t t h e
S A B C o ff i c e t h e w h o l e d a y a n d h e w o u l d c o m e b a c k i n th e e v e n i n g .
A n d o v e r t h e w e e k e n d s a ll th e fo o ta g e t h a t h a d c o ll e c t e d h e w o u l d t h e n
d i g i t is e t h a t w h i c h is b a s ic a l ly ta k e it fr o m t a p e o n t o th e s e r v e r w h ic h
10

could be used for broadcast.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : S o – a n d a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y h e w i ll te ll
m e h o w m a n y h o u r s h a d a lr e a d y b e e n c o l le c t e d a n d i t is m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d I h a v e c o n f ir m e d th is w it h h i m a s w e l l b e f o r e I c a m e
h e r e i s t h a t h e g o t a b o u t 1 0 0 h o u r s o f fo o t a g e fr o m t h e S A B C a r c h iv e s
during his – during this time.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e n e x t w i tn e s s t h a t is
g o i n g to t e s ti fy i s M r Sc o t t w h o w a s t h e s a le s e x e c u ti v e w i t h i n t h e
S A B C . H e i s g o i n g t o b e t a lk i n g t o t h is is s u e .

20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

B u t is t e s ti m o n y is th a t o n ly

2 0 0 0 m in u t e s w a s s o ld .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Not 100 hours.

c o m m e n t t o t h a t?

Page 10 of 127

W h a t is y o u r

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

P e r h a p s 2 0 0 0 m in u t e s w a s s o l d b u t 1 0 0

hours was given. 100 hours was what ANN7 got.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

T h i s is s o m e th in g th a t I k n o w w h ic h I

r e m e m b e r a b s o l u t e ly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h e y c o u ld h a v e s o l d 2 0 0 0 m i n u te s m a y b e
t h a t i s t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t th e y h a d I w o u l d n o t k n o w t h a t b u t w h a t w a s
r e c e i v e d i n t h e a r c h iv e s o f A N N 7 w h ic h is – w h i c h w a s o n t h e ir s e r v e r
10

w a s a b o u t 1 0 0 h o u r s . A n d th is – I a m i s t h e r e is f o r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a t i o n
in t o t h i s – i n t o th e s e r v e r s a t t h e A N N 7 I a m s u r e y o u k n o w t h e tr u th
w o u ld c o m e o u t o n t h is .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o if y o u t a lk i n g 1 0 0

h o u r s y o u t a lk in g 6 0 0 0 m in u t e s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

So – and you are certain that

that is what was received by ANN7?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d …
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : B e c a u s e I w a s g e t t in g t h e f i g u r e s e v e r y d a y
a n d t h e r e w a s a t a lly t h a t w a s d o n e t o w a r d s t h e e n d .
a p p r o x i m a te ly 1 0 0 h o u r s .

It was

I t w a s c l o s e t o 1 0 0 h o u r s b u t d e f in i te ly –

d e f in i te ly m o r e th a n 2 0 0 0 m i n u te s a s is b e i n g s u g g e s te d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I t w a s c l o s e t o 1 0 0 h o u r s .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

If you say you were

lo g g i n g i t d a i ly w e r e y o u l o g g in g it – h o w w e r e y o u m o n it o r in g t h e
receipt of these?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : N o I w o u ld a s k R a h u l . B e c a u s e w h a t R a h u l
d i d w a s h e o n a n e x c e l s h e e t h e w o u l d m a k e a d e ta il o f t h e f o o ta g e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

A b r i e f d e s c r i p ti o n o f t h e f o o ta g e . T h e

n u m b e r o f m i n u t e s t h a t th a t f o o t a g e w a s a n d h e w o u ld s i g n o ff o n t h a t .
S o t h e r e w a s – t h e r e w e r e p r o p e r r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e m a in t a i n e d o f th is
10

o n a n e x c e l s h e e t a n d I w a s s h o w n th o s e e x c e l s h e e ts b y h i m o n h i s
la p to p a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y a n d t h a t i s h o w I k n e w h o w m u c h w a s
coming in.

A n d I r e m e m b e r v e r y c o r r e c t ly, v e r y d i s ti n c tl y t h a t i t w a s

a b o u t 1 0 0 h o u r s b y t h e ti m e h e h a d f i n is h e d w i t h g o in g t o S A B C ,
c o m i n g b a c k w i t h th e fo o t a g e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W e r e y o u i n v o l v e d a t a l l
in t h e p a y m e n ts t h a t w e r e m a d e b y A N N 7 to S A B C i n r e l a ti o n t o t h is
d e a l?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I w a s n o t p a r t o f a n y c o m m e r c i a l d e a ls a t

all at ANN7.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

My p o s i t io n w a s m o s t ly e d it o r i a l a n d y o u

k n o w in t e r m s o f t h e w o r k fl o w a n d t h e l a u n c h .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Were you aware of any

m o n i e s th a t w e r e p a i d t o w a r d s c o p y r ig h ts t h a t i s t h e u s a g e o f t h e
f o o t a g e b y th e A N N 7 t o t h e S A B C

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I l e f t t o o e a r ly. I w a s t o ld t h a t a p a r t o f t h e
c o n tr a c t w a s t h a t w h a t e v e r fo o t a g e A N N 7 u s e s o n a m o n t h ly b a s is t h e y
w e r e s u p p o s e d t o p a y p e r s e c o n d s o m e r o y a l t y to S A B C . B u t A N N 7 h a d
c o n n e d S A B C i n t o g iv i n g t h e m a c o n tr a c t w h ic h s a id t h a t t h e r e w a s n o
– t h a t t h e A N N 7 w o u l d s e lf - d e c la r e h o w m a n y s e c o n d s w e r e u s e d o f
S A B C f o o ta g e a n d I c a n t e l l y o u fo r a f a c t th a t t h e r e w a s n o w a y t o
m o n i t o r th is e i t h e r a t A N N 7 o r a t S A B C . S o S A B C w o u l d h a v e h a d t o
g o o v e r t h e d e c la r a ti o n th a t A N N 7 g o t a n d fr o m d a y 1 y o u k n o w I
u n d e r s t a n d fr o m m y c o n v e r s a ti o n s w i t h N a z e e m H o w a t h e r e w a s a n
10

in t e n t io n o n th e p a r t o f A N N 7 t o g i v e a f ig u r e th a t w a s m u c h l o w e r t h a n
w h a t w a s b e in g u s e d . T h a t t h e y t h o u g h t w a s th e s w e e t p a r t o f t h e d e a l
t h a t th e y m a d e w i t h S A B C .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w l e t u s j u s t t a lk a b o u t
t h e m o n i t o r i n g a f te r u s a g e . Yo u q u i t e c o r r e c t t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r S c o t t
is g o i n g t o b e t h a t h e w o u l d i n v it e t h e m to d e c la r e a n d t h e n t h e y w o u ld
s a y to h i m f o r t h e m o n th o f A p r il w e u s e d s e v e n m i n u te s a n d th e n h e
w o u ld s a y s e v e n m i n u t e s t i m e s R 2 0 0 0 w h i c h is w h a t t h e y w e r e c h a r g in g
t h e m f o r c o p y r i g h t . S o l e t u s j u s t d e a l w i t h th e m o n i t o r in g p r o c e s s . Is
it i n t e r n a ti o n a l – is t h e r e a n i n t e r n a ti o n a l w a y o f m o n i to r i n g u s a g e a n d

20

p r o t e c t in g t h e a r c h i v a l c o n t e n t o f a b r o a d c a s t e r ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Well most people who are worried about

t h e ir c o p y r i g h t s a n d a ls o h a v e c o m m e r c ia l i n t e r e s t s l ik e t h i s h a v e t h e ir
o w n m o n i to r i n g d e p a r t m e n ts .

For instance if I have done a deal with

A N N 7 m y m o n i t o r in g d e p a r t m e n t a t S A B C s h o u l d a c t u a l ly b e l o o k in g a t
e v e r y s e c o n d o f f o o t a g e o n a 2 4 h o u r b a s is a n d th e n b il li n g t h e m

Page 13 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
a c c o r d i n g t o t h a t . R a th e r t h a n w a i ti n g f o r t h e c li e n t to d is c l o s e a n d te ll
m e w h ic h c o u ld a n y w a y s b e d i s p u t e d y o u k n o w. T h e y c o u l d b e u n d e r
in v o ic i n g . T h e y c o u ld b e d o in g a w h o l e l o t o f o t h e r t h i n g s .

The best

p r o c e s s i n t h i s w o u l d b e t o h a v e a m o n i t o r in g d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h
m o n i t o r s o n a 2 4 h o u r b a s is o r l ik e w h a t U - t u b e d o e s n o w a d a y s y o u
know

so

you

bypass

human

i n t e r v e n ti o n

a l to g e th e r

and

have

a l g o r i t h m s ’ th a t c o u l d – w h i c h k n o w t h e e l e c tr o n ic f o o tp r i n t o f t h e
f o o t a g e a u d i o v i d e o th a t y o u h a v e a n d m a t c h i t a g a i n s t a b r o a d c a s t a n d
g iv e y o u t h e e x a c t n u m b e r o f s e c o n d s fo r w h ic h th is h a s b e e n u s e d .
10

T h e r e a r e v a r io u s w a y s i n w h ic h th e u s e o f f o o ta g e c a n b e – o r u s e o f
c o p y r ig h t e d f o o t a g e c a n b e m o n i to r e d w h i c h a r e u s e d b y b r o a d c a s t e r s
e v e r y w h e r e . A n d I t h i n k it w a s a v e r y – y o u k n o w I w o u l d th in k a t b e s t
it w o u l d b e a v e r y in n o c e n t m i s ta k e o n t h e p a r t o f S A B C t o a g r e e t o
s u c h a d e a l w h e r e w i t h o u t m o n it o r in g y o u a r e a s k i n g t h e G u p t a
b r o t h e r s t o d i s c l o s e o n t h e ir o w n h o w m u c h fo o t a g e t h e y u s e d b e c a u s e
y o u k n o w th a t w a s n o t a c o m m e r c ia ll y w is e d e c is i o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Are you aware of

s o m e t h i n g t h a t is c a ll e d th e b a n t i n c o d e a s t o h o w th a t w o r k s ? A n d
w h e t h e r w h e n y o u w e r e h e r e i n S o u th A fr ic a n w h e th e r a n y o f t h e
20

b r o a d c a s t e r s th a t y o u e v e r d e a l t w i th u s e d t h a t i f t h e r e w a s a n a r c h i v e
o r c o n t e n t t h a t t h e y w a n te d to s e ll t o A N N 7 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h e o n ly b r o a d c a s t e r w h o I k n o w w a n t e d t o
s e l l a r c h iv a l f o o ta g e t o A N N 7 w a s S A B C .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: A n d I a m n o t a w a r e o f t h is c o d e .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Of the code yes.

So the

c r i ti c is m t h a t y o u l e v e l a t t h e m is th a t t h e y a c tu a lly a l lo w e d t h e u s e r t o
determine how much it should pay for because in essence if the user
d o e s n o t d is c l o s e t h a t I u s e d 4 0 m i n u t e s o f y o u r f o o t a g e a n d I w i ll
s i m p l y d e c i d e a s a u s e r i f I a m a d e v i o u s u s e r t h a t I u s e d o n ly f iv e . A n d
a s t h e S A B C y o u h a v e a b s o lu t e l y n o w a y o f m o n i t o r i n g w h e t h e r i n f a c t
t h e y u s e d f o r t y o r fi v e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

J a a b s o lu t e l y I m e a n th a t i s n o t t h e w a y

c o m m e r c ia l d e a l s a r e d o n e .
10

Yo u h a v e to h a v e y o u k n o w in t o th e

c o n tr a c t y o u h a v e t o [i n d is t in c t] a c c o u n ta b ili t y. Yo u h a v e to [ in d is ti n c t ]
a fa c t t h a t th e r e i s n o s c o p e f o r y o u k n o w f o r w a n t o f a n y o t h e r w o r d a
m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o r a m is r e a d in g o f f ig u r e s b e t w e e n tw o p a r t i e s .

So

t h e r e h a d to b e i n t h is c o n t r a c t a s y s te m w h e r e t h e r e c o u l d h a v e b e e n
a n a c c u r a te i n d is p u ta b l e a n d a u d it a b l e s y s t e m w h ic h c o u ld d e t e r m in e
h o w m u c h f o o t a g e w a s u s e d a n d h o w m u c h m o n e y w a s p a id w h ic h w a s
n o t d o n e i n t h is c a s e . N o w t h is c o u ld b e s o m e t h in g t h a t w a s d o n e b y
s o m e b o d y w h o w a s n e g o ti a ti n g w h o is n o t r e a l ly f a m ili a r w i th d e a ls li k e
t h is o r it c o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e w i t h a n i n te n t I w o u l d n o t k n o w a b o u t
that.
20

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e y w o u l d h a v e l o s t .
I f y o u ta k e t h e 1 0 0 h o u r s t h a t y o u ta lk in g a b o u t th a t is 6 0 0 0 m i n u te s
t h e r e is a lo t o f r e v e n u e t h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e l o s t e v e n i f o n e g o e s
a c c o r d i n g t o t h e R 2 0 0 0 p e r s e c o n d s a le o f t h a t fo o t a g e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H m . A b s o l u te l y I w o u l d a g r e e w i t h t h a t y o u
k n o w. Th is is – I m e a n w h a t S A B C d i d w a s e x p o s e d t h e ms e lv e s t o fr a u d

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
k n o w i n g ly. S o w h y t h e y d id i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I w o u ld n o t k n o w – I
w o u ld n o t u n d e r s t a n d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

It is n o t a c o m m e r c i a l d e c i s i o n a n d w h a t

N a z e e m H o w a c a l le d it w a s a s w e e t d e a l s o w h y w o u l d th e y g iv e a
s w e e t d e a l to A N N 7 w h y I w a s t o l d i s b e c a u s e – a n d w h a t t h e y s a i d it
w a s b e c a u s e t h e S A B C o ff ic i a ls k n e w t h a t t h e G u p t a ’s w e r e c l o s e t o
t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e y d i d n o t w a n t t o c o m e i n t h e ir w a y o r a s k t o o
m a n y q u e s t io n s s o t h e y j u s t g a v e a s w e e t d e a l t o th e m .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d M r S c o t t is g o in g t o

t e s ti fy t h a t a lt h o u g h a c c o r d i n g th e p r ic i n g g u i d e t h a t t h e S A B C h a s t h e y
h a d to s e l l t h e 2 0 0 0 m in u t e s a t R 1 0 0 p e r m i n u t e b u t i t w a s – t h e r e w a s
a d is c o u n t t h a t w a s g iv e n t o A N N 7 b e c a u s e a c c o r d i n g t o Mr S c o t t i t w a s
t h e b i g g e s t s a l e t h a t t h e y r e c e iv e d fr o m o n e c li e n t .

A n d t h e n th e

d is c o u n t t h a t w a s g iv e n w a s R 3 0 a n d th e r e f o r e t h e y h a d t o p a y R 7 0 p e r
minute.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O k a y. S e e I w o u ld – I m e a n a s s o m e b o d y
w h o h a d b e e n i n th e b r o a d c a s t b u s in e s s w o u l d w a n t to k n o w w h y w o u ld
y o u w a n t t o g iv e fo o t a g e a t a d is c o u n t t o a p o t e n t ia l r i v a l? I f I w e r e i n
20

t h is p o s i t i o n a n d I k n o w I a m j u s t i n h i n d s i g h t a n y b o d y c a n s a y
a n y th in g b u t I w o u l d h a v e c h a r g e d th e m m o r e t h a n w h a t I c h a r g e o th e r
c li e n t s b e c a u s e t h is is a p o t e n t i a l r i v a l . S o t h e y w e r e g i v e n a d i s c o u n t
a n d l ik e I s a i d fo o ta g e o f th is n a t u r e c a n n o t b e v a l u e d o n a b l a n k e t
b a s is . T h e r e is a r c h iv a l f o o t a g e s a y o f N e ls o n M a n d e l a fr o m th e 7 0 ’s
a n d 8 0 ’s w h ic h is o f a f a r h i g h e r v a lu e th a n o f a J u l iu s M a l e m a w h ic h

Page 16 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
w a s s h o t y e s t e r d a y.

S o y o u c a n n o t s a y t h a t h e r e is a b l a n k e t c l a i m

t h a t w e g iv e y o u f o r a ll o f t h a t .

S o t h e v a l u a ti o n i f y o u s e e w a s n o t

d o n e o n a n y p r u d e n t b a s is . I t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e t h in g . A n d
a ls o if t h e r e is a r a t e c a r d th a t th e y h a d f o r th is f o o t a g e w a s th is r a t e
c a r d m a d e j u s t f o r t h is d e a l o r is t h i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t e x i s t e d b e f o r e ? I s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t w o u l d b e i n t e r e s t in g t o k n o w.

B u t lik e I s a i d a 1 0 0

h o u r s o f f o o ta g e c o s ts i n th e m i ll io n s o f d o l la r s a n d t h e v a l u a t io n o f
t h a t i s a – is s o m e t h i n g th a t w o u l d r e q u ir e c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n ta n ts t h a t
w o u ld r e q u ir e p r o f e s s i o n a ls w h o w o u ld v a lu e . Yo u k n o w i t i s lik e y o u
10

g o to a s h o p a n d t h e r e is a n ti q u e fu r n it u r e t h e r e a n d t h e r e i s f u r n i t u r e
t h a t is m a d e t o d a y a n d th e r e is b r o k e n f u r n i t u r e a n d y o u s e l l a l l o f i t a t
t h e s a m e r a t e . I f I w e r e t o g iv e y o u a n a l o g y o f a fu r n it u r e s h o p .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : Th a t is w h a t t h e y h a v e d o n e s o w h ic h – a s
s o m e b o d y w h o h a s b e e n in t h i s p r o f e s s i o n I f i n d t h a t a l i t tl e p u z z l in g
y o u k n o w w h y w o u l d – w h y w o u l d th e y d o th a t?

W h y w o u l d th e y d o

s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ?
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s . T h a n k y o u .

M a y b e Mr

S c o t t i s g o i n g t o b e a b le t o e x p l a in s o m e o f t h o s e q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u
20

a r e r a is in g . T h e n in p a r a g r a p h 2 2 y o u d e a l w i t h a v i s a a n d l a b o u r l a w
v io l a t i o n s . C o u l d y o u ju s t t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e w e b e li e v e t h a t
t h e r e i s m a y b e I w i ll t a k e y o u t o th a t r e c o r d o f Mr – t o t h a t a r ti c l e o f Mr
B a t e m a n a s t o h o w d id y o u d i s c o v e r th a t t h e is s u in g o f v i s a s to s o m e o f
t h e e m p l o y e e s o f A N N 7 w h ic h w e r e fr o m I n d i a w a s n o t d o n e a c c o r d i n g
t o th e la w s o f t h e c o u n tr y o r w e r e d o n e i n a m a n n e r t h a t w a s i r r e g u l a r ?

Page 17 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
What made you to be aware of that?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll y o u k n o w th e – w h e n I a r r i v e d h e r e I

w a s ta k e n t o a g u e s t h o u s e w h i c h h a d N e p a l i n a ti o n a l w h o w a s w o r k in g
t h e r e a n d n o t g e t t in g a n y s a l a r y. H is s a la r y w a s g iv e n i n c a s h i n I n d ia
a n d h e w a s w o r k in g t h e r e a n d w h e n I s p o k e w i t h h i m h e t o l d m e a l o t o f
t h i n g s w h ic h y o u k n o w l e f t m e t h i n k in g . F o r in s ta n c e h e w a s t h e r e o n a
t o u r is t v is a .

H e w a s n o t o n a w o r k p e r m it b u t h e w a s w o r k in g t h e r e .

H e h a d t o c o o k f o r d o z e n s o f p e o p le y o u k n o w n o t ju s t t h e p e o p le w h o
a r e s ta y i n g i n t h e g u e s t h o u s e b u t a ls o th e l a b o u r e r s w o u ld c o m e fr o m
10

I n d ia t o c o n s t r u c t t h e s t u d i o [i n d is t in c t] . N o w h e t o l d m e a b o u t w o r k in g
c o n d i ti o n s t h a t t h e y w e r e p u t i n w h ic h w e r e s u b - h u m a n . Yo u k n o w th e
la b o u r e r s w o u ld c o m e f r o m I n d i a o n t o u r i s ts ’ v i s a s f o r s t a y in g a t t h e
s t u d i o P r o m is i s w h i le t h e y w e r e c o n s tr u c t in g i t . Th e r e w a s v e r y b a s i c
f a c i li t ie s fo r to il e ts a n d w a s h r o o m s . Th e y w e r e y o u k n o w s o t h is N e p a li
n a t io n a l w o u l d c o o k f o r t h e m a n d ta k e – a n d t h e d r iv e r s w o u l d f e r r y th e
f o o d t o t h o s e p e o p l e . A n d a l s o I r e m e m b e r A ja y G u p t a a n d o th e r s
c o m p la i n i n g a b o u t h o w t h o s e p e o p l e t h e r e a l a r g e n u m b e r o f t h e m w e r e
c o m i n g t o t h e N e w A g e o ff ic e to u s e t h e w a s h r o o m s .

S o o n th e o n e

h a n d y o u d o n o t p r o v i d e t h e m e n o u g h w a s h r o o m s a t s i te a n d w h e n t h e y
20

c o m e t o t h e o ff ic e y o u k n o w t h e r e is a t o t a l a m o u n t o f d i s g u s t t h a t h e
w o u ld t a l k a b o u t . S o – s o t h o s e – t h e y w o u l d s l e e p a t s i t e , th e y w o u l d
w o r k a t s i te , t h e y w o u l d b e w o r k i n g 2 4 h o u r s .

T h e r e w a s n o la b o u r

la w s t h a t w e r e a p p l ic a b le t o t h o s e p e o p l e . A n d i n m y v ie w y o u k n o w I
w o u ld b e c o r r e c te d b y a n e x p e r t if t h e r e i s o n e w h y w o u l d – y o u k n o w
w h e n t h e r e is a b u n d a n t s u p p ly o f s k i ll e d a n d u n s k il le d la b o u r f o r

Page 18 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
c o n s tr u c ti o n i n S o u t h A fr ic a w h y w o u ld t h e y g e t t h e s e p e o p le fr o m t h e r e
a n d t h e y w e r e – a n d I w a s t o l d l a t e r th a t A s h u C h a w l a t h r o u g h t h e
o ffic e s o f th e P r e s i d e n t c o u l d g iv e a n y n u m b e r o f v i s a s t o a n y n u m b e r
o f p e o p le . S o if i t w o r k s o u t c h e a p e r f o r t h e m t o g e t – fly p e o p le d o w n
b y t h e p l a n e l o a d s fr o m In d i a t o c o n s t r u c t h e r e t h a t is w h a t t h e y w o u ld
d o r a t h e r th a n p a y s a l a r i e s h e r e .

M r G u p t a a l s o h a d a lo t o f

u n c h a r i ta b l e th in g s to s a y a b o u t w o r k e r s h e r e . H e s a i d t h e y w e r e l a z y,
they would work certain number of hours.

If you ask them to work

o v e r n i g h t t h e y w o u ld n o t d o t h a t . T h e y w o u l d n o t s t a y a t t h e s i t e a n d
10

w o r k s o j u s t g e t p e o p l e fr o m I n d i a l e t t h e m s ta y a t th e s i te . G iv e t h e m
v e r y b a s ic f a c il it i e s .

G iv e t h e m a s a c k o f r ic e to c o o k o n s i t e .

G iv e

t h e m – s u p p l y t h e m s o m e m e a ls fr o m t h e g u e s t h o u s e a n d y o u k n o w –
p u t t h e m in – y o u k n o w I w o u l d c a l l th e m s u b - h u m a n c o n d i t io n s i n
w h ic h th e y w e r e w o r k i n g . S o t h a t is w h e n I fo u n d o u t t h a t t h e s e k i n d s
o f v i o la t io n s w e r e t a k i n g p la c e h e r e . A ls o to w a r d s th e la u n c h w e h a d
r e q u ir e d a fe w m o r e p e o p l e b e c a u s e I – y o u k n o w w h i l e w e w e r e
m a k i n g o u r s tr a te g ie s a n d p la n s in I n d i a w e h a d s a i d t h a t w e w i ll g e t
s o m e s k il ls fr o m S o u t h A f r i c a .

F o r i n s t a n c e th e P C R s t a ff w a s

s o m e t h i n g th a t w e s a id w e w i ll g e t f r o m S o u th A f r ic a .
20

c a m e r a p e o p le a n d a l l o f t h o s e t h i n g s .

A n d a ls o th e

B u t it w a s s u d d e n ly d e c id e d

t h a t t h e p r o d u c t io n c o n tr o l r o o m w e c o u ld n o t h ir e a n y b o d y fr o m S o u t h
A fr ic a b e c a u s e 1 . Th e p e o p le t h a t w e w e r e g e tt i n g w e r e v e r y e x p e n s iv e
a c c o r d i n g t o t h e – to M r – t o A t u l G u p t a a n d Mr L a x m i G o e l a n d i t w o u l d
b e c h e a p e r f o r u s t o g e t p e o p l e fr o m I n d ia .

A ls o c e r t a i n c r i ti c a l

p o s i ti o n s t h e y w a n t th e c o n tr o ls w it h t h e m t h e y d i d n o t tr u s t S o u th

Page 19 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A fr ic a n N a ti o n a ls o r j o u r n a l is ts t o t a k e t h o s e p o s it i o n s .

So the

p r o d u c t io n c o n tr o l r o o m a n d th e v i d e o [ in d i s t i n c t ] a r e b e i n g o n e o f
t h o s e is s u e s . A n d t h e i d e a t h e n w a s t o g e t a w h o le l o t o f p e o p l e v e r y
q u ic k ly fr o m I n d i a b e fo r e t h e la u n c h b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t w a n t t o h ir e
fr o m S o u th A f r ic a a n d I w a s v e r y r e s is ta n t o n t h a t . I r e fu s e d to s i g n o n
a n y o f t h e d o c u m e n ts w h i c h w o u l d g e t - f o r t h e n u m b e r o f p e o p l e fr o m
I n d ia b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t th a t w a s – y o u k n o w – i t w a s n o t r e q u ir e d . W e
h a d a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e i n S o u th A fr ic a w h o c o u ld d o t h a t j o b .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : H m .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

S o m y d e c i s io n – t h e y o v e r w r o t e my

d e c is i o n a n d M r L a x m i G o e l i n In d ia a p p o i n te d a lo t o f p e o p le m a n y o f
w h o m w e r e s e n t h e r e o n v is i to r v is a t o w o r k h e r e b e f o r e t h e la u n c h a n d
t h a t i s s o m e t h in g t h a t I c o u l d d o n o t h i n g a b o u t b e c a u s e – y o u k n o w – I
d i d n o t s i g n o ff o n t h a t a n d m o s t o f t h e m c a m e h e r e a n d I w a s a
w i t n e s s to th e k in d o f v io la t io n th a t w a s h a p p e n i n g in t h is . I n th a t c a s e
a ls o th e s a m e t h i n g h a p p e n e d .

Mr A s h u C h a w l a w a s g iv e n a li s t o f

p e o p l e w h o w e r e t o b e b r o u g h t fr o m t h e r e .

He would contact – you

k n o w – b e in t o u c h w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t ’s O ffi c e , w o u l d b e i n to u c h w it h
t h e H o m e D e p a r t m e n t a n d i m m e d i a te ly – y o u k n o w – w i t h i n a d a y o r s o
20

t h e v is a ’s w o u l d b e is s u e d a n d t h e – p l a n e lo a d s o f p e o p l e w o u l d c o m e
h e r e a n d s t a r t w o r k i n g . I h a v e c o m p la i n e d …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: A b o u t t h is a s w e l l.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n – s o w h e n y o u

r e a l is e d t h a t t h i s w a s h a p p e n i n g a m I c o r r e c t t h a t t h e n y o u w r o te t o –

Page 20 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
a ft e r y o u l e ft S o u t h A f r ic a …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Yo u

raised

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th e

D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

O h th a t is c o r r e c t .

S o I w r o t e th e m t w o

m a ils – y o u k n o w – a m a i l a n d a f o ll o w u p m a il b u t I a m – y o u k n o w –
v e r y d is a p p o i n t e d t h a t i t h a s b e e n s ix y e a r s I h a v e n o t g o t a s i n g l e
r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e H o m e D e p a r t m e n t s e e k in g m o r e d e t a ils o r s e e k in g
a n y e x t r a in f o r m a t io n a b o u t t h e c o m p l a i n t t h a t I g a v e t h e m .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Ev e n – y o u k n o w w h e n – I m e a n I a m

d i g r e s s i n g a li t tl e b it . E v e n a t t h e S A B C w h e n m y b o o k c a m e o u t – n o w
t h e d e t a i ls a r e t h e r e – I w a s t o l d th a t th e S A B C B o a r d h a d c o n s ti t u te d a
f o r e n s ic i n v e s t i g a t io n i n to t h e a v e r m e n ts t h a t I m a d e b u t t o d a te it h a s
been over a year since that Committee was set up. I have never been
c o n ta c t e d t o g i v e o u t a n y d e t a ils o r a n y o f t h a t – y o u k n o w. S o t h a t is
– t h a t le a v e s m e a li t tl e d is a p p o in t e d – y o u k n o w.

I t i s a l m o s t l ik e –

y o u k n o w – fo r s i x y e a r s I h a v e b e e n fi g h ti n g a l o n e b a t tl e a n d I h a v e
h a d n o s u p p o r t fr o m t h e t e a ms t h e d e p a r t m e n ts th a t a r e s u p p o s e d to
20

in v e s t i g a t e t h e s e c h a r g e s . S o …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I w a n t t o p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

t h e – w i th t h e H o m e A ff a ir s is s u e fir s t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H u h - u h .

Page 21 of 127

Maybe just to deal with

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

If you have a look at CC –

E X H I B I T C C 1 D Mr C h a ir m a n w h ic h is t h e le v e r a r c h fi l e s u b m is s i o n b y
M r A p l e n i . M a y I d r a w y o u r a t t e n t io n t o p a g e 2 0 7 ? I n fa c t s t a r ti n g fr o m
2 1 0 – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . T h a t is w h e r e y o u r e m a i ls a r e – 2 1 0 . H a v e
y o u f o u n d it ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O h , t h a n k y o u . N o w t h a t f ir s t –
if y o u – i f y o u ju s t o n e p a g e b a c k y o u w ill fi n d a n o t h e r e m a i l a t 2 0 9 a n d
t h a t i s d a te d 6 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H u h - u h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : B u t it s e e m s t o m e t h a t t h e o n e
t h a t is d a t e d – th a t a p p e a r s a t 2 11 i s d a t e d 4 S e p te m b e r. A m I r ig h t ?
Is t h a t th e 4 t h o r 1 4 S e p t e m b e r – 2 - 1 - 1 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: 2 - 1 - 1 ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

I t h i n k i n t h e p r i n ti n g th e r e h a s b e e n a n

error …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
20

B u t I w o u ld g o w it h w h a t w a s o n t h e

o r i g in a l . Yo u k n o w – I t h in k i t s h o u ld b e t h e 4 t h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

I t lo o k s l ik e th e 4 t h to m e a s

w e ll . Ye s , s o a r e t h e s e t h e e m a il s t h a t y o u d ir e c t e d to t h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f H o m e A ff a ir s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A n d I s e e t h a t y o u h a d c o p i e d

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
o n th e e m a il s s o m e o f th e r e c i p i e n ts t h e r e M r A p l e n i a n d y o u h a v e g o t
a w h o l e l is t o f o th e r p e o p l e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

W h e r e d i d y o u g e t th e s e

addresses?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

I went on

the

website of the Home

D e p a r t m e n t a n d I – y o u k n o w – t h e y h a v e g o t a w h o le l o t o f o ffic e
b e a r e r s a n d t h e ir e m a i l I D s t h a t w e r e li s te d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

S o I p u t a c o m p la i n t to e a c h o f th e o ff ic e

b e a r e r s a n d a ls o to t h e H e a d t h e r e .
t h e r e c o u l d b e a d is p u te la t e r o n .

Now I knew that – you know –

S o w h a t I d id w a s t o a ls o m a r k a

c o p y o f t h i s c o m p l a i n t t o v a r io u s jo u r n a l is t s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

H o p in g t h a t i f – y o u k n o w – t h a t i t w il l b e

t a k e n b y t h e m e d i a a n d th e r e w o u l d b e s o m e p r e s s u r e o n th e
d e p a r t m e n t t o i n v e s ti g a t e th e s e c h a r g e s b u t lik e I s a id I a m n o t a w a r e
o f a n y in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t h a s h a p p e n e d .

I w a s n o t in v o lv e d i n a n y o f

that.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u in t h e e m a il t h a t is
a t p a g e 2 0 9 y o u m a k e m e n ti o n o f c e r t a in p e o p l e w h e r e y o u s a y – y o u
s u g g e s t t h a t t h e ir v is a s w e r e i s s u e d i n a m a n n e r th a t w a s n o t r e g u l a r.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d c o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d

in t o t h e r e c o r d m a y b e s t a r t o ff w i th o r m a y b e b e c a u s e it is a s h o r t

Page 23 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
e m a i l . M a y b e if y o u c o u l d j u s t r e a d th a t e m a il .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: S o t h is is …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A t p a g e 2 - 0 - 9 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: O h , 2 - 0 - 9 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
08:33 am.

A n d t h is is d a t e d 6 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 a t

S o t h is is a d d r e s s e d to a l l t h e o ffi c i a l s a t th e H o m e

D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e j o u r n a l is ts t h a t I h a v e a ls o m a r k e d o n t h i s .
“ D e a r S ir, I a m p a i n e d t o n o t e t h a t d e s p i t e my
10

c o m p la i n t t o y o u a f e w d a y s a g o I h a v e g o t a n
a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t fr o m y o u .

I w o u ld a ls o lik e t o

r e p o r t t h a t I n fi n i ty M e d ia s h a r e h o ld e r A t u l G u p t a
a n d L a x m i G o e l h a v e s t a r te d a l a r g e s c a l e c o v e r u p
o p e r a ti o n t o h i d e t h e tr a c k s o f th e v is a f r a u d t h e y
a r e p e r p e tr a ti n g . ( I n d is t in c t) o f th e d o z e n o f I n d i a n
la b o u r e r s h a v e q u ic k l y l e ft S o u t h A fr ic a m a n y I n d i a n
n a t io n a l s w h o h a v e c o m e o n b u s in e s s v is a s a r e
a ls o b e e n a s k e d to s t o p r e p o r t in g t o w o r k a f t e r I
m a d e m y c o m p l a in t t o y o u p u b lic .
20

I f e a r t h e y w i ll

be sent back to India as a means to destroy
evidence.

Yo u

can

s ti ll

probe

the

is s u e

by

d is c r e e t ly s e e k i n g d e t a i ls fr o m t h e e d i t o r i a l s ta ff
a b o u t t h e w o r k d o n e b y th e i n te r n a ti o n a ls w h o c a m e
in

on

b u s in e s s

S a n j a y P a n d e y,

visas.

Vis h n u S h a n k a r,

Page 24 of 127

These

include

A n a n d Pr a k a s h ,

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
S h a m in a m o n g o t h e r s .

T h e d e l a y i n p r o b i n g th e

m a t t e r h a s a lr e a d y g i v e n t i m e t o M r G u p t a a n d
M r G o e l t o d e s t r o y e v i d e n c e a n d c o v e r t h e ir tr a c k s .
I h o p e y o u w il l a c k n o w l e d g e m y m a i l a n d s t a r t t o
p r o b e a t t h e e a r l i e s t, R a j e s h S u n d a r a m . ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , th a n k y o u .

As y o u a r e

a w a r e a s w e c o n v e y e d t h is to y o u o n S u n d a y t h a t M r A p l e n i h a s
a c t u a ll y p u t th e d o c u m e n t t h a t s h o w s t h a t t h e r e w a s i n f a c t a n
in v e s t i g a t io n i n to y o u r c o m p la i n t .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H u h - u h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I a m n o t a w a r e o f t h a t b e c a u s e I w a s n e v e r
in f o r m e d o f i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: M y e m a il s w e n t u n a n s w e r e d . T h e r e w a s n o
r e s p o n s e t h a t I g o t a t a n y ti m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: J a .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

20

M a y b e b e f o r e w e g o to r e p o r t

m a y b e j u s t to m e n ti o n t h a t y o u h a d c o m p l a i n e d a n d M r B a r r y B a t e m a n
…
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A ls o t o o k th e m a t te r u p w i th

H o m e A ff a ir s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s , y e s .

Page 25 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A n d h is e m a i l a p p e a r s a t p a g e
2 0 8 a n d h e is – h e is a j o u r n a lis t o f Pr e to r ia C o r r e s p o n d e n t Ey e w i t n e s s
N e w s a n d t h e n h is l e tt e r – h is e m a i l o f – t h a t a p p e a r s .

I t is d a te d

9 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 a n d h e h a d a d d r e s s e d t h e e m a i l t o Mr R o n n i e M a m o e p a
o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a i r s a n d h e w a s r a is i n g th e i s s u e t h a t
you had complained about the matter and the department had – had not
a tt e n d e d to it .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t ?
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I a m s e e i n g t h i s le t t e r fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th e e m a il f o r th e fir s t t i m e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Al r ig h t , o k a y. S o h e – h e to o k
t h e m a t t e r u p a n d t h e n i n th a t e m a i l h e – if y o u r e a d t h e v e r y la s t
s e n te n c e .
“The following people have been working …”
I f y o u r e a d t h a t h e h a s l is t e d s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e th a t y o u l is t e d in t h e
previous email that you read. Could you just read those names out?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: W h i c h p a g e i s t h is ?

20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : S o r r y – p a g e 2 - 0 - 7 s t il l.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

“ D e a r R o n n ie , I a m j u s t f o l l o w i n g

u p t o c o n fir m t h a t y o u a r e o n t o p o f t h i s .

I have

s in c e o u r c h a t y e s te r d a y s p o k e n t o M r S u n d a r a m .
H e h a s c o n fir m e d th a t n o t a s i n g l e p e r s o n f r o m t h e
d e p a r t m e n t h a s r e s p o n d e d t o h is c o m p l a in t n e a r ly a

Page 26 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
w e e k a f t e r h e s e n t i t t o s e n i o r o ffic i a ls i n t h e
d e p a r t m e n t a D G a n d D D G a n d s e v e r a l o th e r s . I t is
w o r t h n o ti n g t h a t S u n d a r a m s e n t a f o l l o w u p le t t e r
t o t h e a b o v e m e n t io n e d p e o p l e i n w h ic h h e s a i d h e
h a d b e c o m e a w a r e o f a c o v e r u p . D e s p i t e t h is th e
d e p a r t m e n t s t il l h a d n o t r e a c t e d .
raised

concerns

that

Sundaram has

department

o ffi c ia ls

are

c o m p la c e n t in t h e s e v is a s ir r e g u l a r i ti e s w h ic h c o u ld
e x p l a i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t ’s l a c k o f u r g e n c y.
10

The

f o ll o w i n g p e o p l e h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g a t A N N 7 a s
e d i to r i a l s t a ff .

H o w e v e r t h e y a r e a ll e g e d in t h e

c o u n tr y o n b u s i n e s s v is a s .

These visas were

a r r a n g e d th r o u g h S a h a r a C o m p u te r s . P l e a s e c h e c k
the

visas

and

Anand Prakash,
S h a m in H u s s a in ,

of

course

th e

S a n ja y P a n d e y,

names

are

D e e p a k K a u s h ik ,

Vis h n u S h a n k a r,

Y P Singh,

R a v i P u r i a n d S u n il K u m a r. P l e a s e c h e c k t h e v i s a s
t h a t w e r e is s u e d t o t h e s e p e o p le t o c o n f ir m w h e t h e r
t h e y a r e b u s in e s s v is a s o r w o r k v is a s . My d e a d li n e
20

for

this

i n fo r m a t i o n

is

m id d a y.

Regards,

B a r r y B a te m a n P r e t o r i a C o r r e s p o n d e n t E y e w i t n e s s
N e w s a n d t h e d e ta il s . ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , th a n k y o u a n d t h e r e is

a n o t h e r e m a il t h a t y o u h a d t o s e n d a f t e r y o u h a d v ie w e d o n T V a
r e s p o n s e b y t h e f o r m e r M i n is t e r o f H o m e A ff a ir s D r N a l e d i P a n d o r.

Page 27 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

W h a t – w h a t h a p p e n e d th a t

ti m e ? Yo u li s te n e d a n d y o u s a w w h a t t h e M i n i s te r h a d r e s p o n d – w a s
r e s p o n d i n g to P a r li a m e n t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: A n d I – I d id n o t l is t e n t o w h a t s h e s a id b u t
I h a d r e a d a f e w m e d i a r e p o r ts a b o u t w h a t w a s b e i n g s a i d a n d I k n e w
t h a t t h e r e w a s m u c h m o r e t o t h e – t o t h e in v e s ti g a t io n t h a n w h a t w a s
10

being reported.

S o t h e n I h a d w r i t te n s a y i n g t h a t – y o u k n o w – th e

o th e r a s p e c ts s h o u ld a l s o b e i n v e s ti g a t e d a b o u t t h i s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

If y o u c o u l d j u s t t u r n t o

page 2-1-4.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h a t is w h a t Mr A p l e n i h a s p u t
up.

In f a c t m a y b e C h a ir if I c o u l d j u s t t a k e C h a ir p e r s o n to 2 - 0 - 1

because that …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: 2 - 0 - 1 ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : 2 - 0 - 1 y e s . I t i s a s u b m is s io n .
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d y o u c a n – t h a t – t h a t

s a y s fe e d b a c k r e p o r t o n t h e m e d i a c o m p la in t t h a t i n t h e i m m i g r a ti o n
s t a tu s o f fo r e ig n e r s e m p l o y e d b y A fr ic a N e w s N e tw o r k – A N N 7 . D o y o u
s e e t h a t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .

Page 28 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n th e y w e r e p r o v id i n g

t h e M i n i s t e r w i t h fe e d b a c k .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H u h - u h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A n d in th e s e c o n d – o n t h e

second page – page 2-0-2 …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Yo u w i ll s e e th a t th e l is t o f

n a m e s t h a t c a m e f r o m M r B a te m a n ’s l is t i n t h e e m a il a n d a ls o
in c o r p o r a t i n g s o m e o f t h e n a m e s t h a t y o u h a d o n y o u r l is t …
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H u h - u h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th o s e p e r s o n s a r e li s te d th e r e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n th e r e is a d i s c u s s io n
t h a t - t h e y d e a l w i t h a d is c u s s i o n i n t h e m a t t e r b u t I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o
ju s t lo o k a t w h a t th e i r f in d in g s I w o u l d i m a g i n e w e r e b e c a u s e in
p a r a g r a p h 6 w h a t d o th e y s a y t h e r e – a t p a g e 2 - 0 - 2 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

“On

fu r t h e r

in v e s t i g a t io n

I n s p e c t o r a t e d i s c u s s e d t h a t 3 1 fo r e ig n n a ti o n a ls a r e
o n i n tr a - c o m p a n y p e r m i t . H o w e v e r o n e o f t h e s e 3 1
20

h a s a lr e a d y r e s ig n e d a n d le f t t h e c o u n tr y.

Our

m is s i o n i n N e w D e l h i h a s b e e n c o n t a c te d t o e n s u r e
t h a t th e p e r m it is c a n c e ll e d . ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n i f y o u t u r n o v e r

t h e p a g e w h a t d o th e y s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 7 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: “ T h e o t h e r n i n e fo r e i g n e m p l o y e e s

Page 29 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
a r e o n v is it o r v is a s w it h a c o n d it i o n o f a tt e n d i n g
b u s i n e s s m in u t e s .

T h r e e o f th e n in e h a v e a l r e a d y

le f t th e c o u n tr y. ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e y a t t a c h t h o s e

p a s s p o r t s a n d t h e n m a y b e w e s h o u l d j u s t r e a d - i t is n o t to – i t is n o t
t o o lo n g b e c a u s e t h e n I w i ll ta k e y o u to t h e r e l e v a n t p a g e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: S u r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s to d e a l w i t h t h e m .

Okay

a n d th e n p a r a g r a p h 8 .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: “ T h e e m p l o y e r i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e y
in t e n d k e e p i n g th e o th e r s s i x fo r e ig n e m p lo y e e s .
As a result the employer has approached the
department and made a request for a visa of the
r e q u ir e m e n t

for

work

permit

and

should

th e

d e p a r t m e n t a p p r o v e th e y w i ll m a k e a n a p p li c a t io n
f o r th e s e e m p l o y e e s t o b e is s u e d w it h c r i t ic a l s k i lls
p e r m it s . ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s

and

then

paragraph.
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

“ T h e m e d i a c o m p la i n t r e f e r r e d t o

e i g h t f o r e i g n e r s a n d th e e m p l o y e r c o n fir m e d fo u r.
N a m e ly

Anand Prakash,

S a n j a y P a n d e y,

D e e p a k K a u s h ik a n d Vis h n u S h a n k a r. A c c o r d i n g t o
t h e e m p l o y e r t h r e e o f t h e s e f o u r h a v e a l r e a d y le f t
t h e c o u n tr y a n d t h e I n s p e c to r a t e h a s c o n f i r me d t h a t

Page 30 of 127

th e

next

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
S a n j a y P a n d e y,

D e e p a k K a u s h ik

and

Vis h n u S h a n k a r l e f t t h e c o u n tr y o n t h e 5 t h a n d
6 September 2013.”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s

and

then

the

la s t

paragraph.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
o th e r

four

“ T h e e m p l o y e r m e n ti o n s t h a t t h e

namely

Ravi Puri,

Shamin Hussain,

Y P S i n g h a n d S u n il K u m a r w e r e c o n s u l t a n t s s e n t
b y Es s e l M e d ia a n d h a v e s i n c e l e ft th e c o u n tr y.
10

T h e I n s p e c t o r a t e is s ti ll a w a i t in g t h e ir f u l l d e t a ils
fr o m th e M i s s io n i n I n d i a i n o r d e r to c o n fir m i f
in d e e d th e y h a v e l e f t t h e c o u n t r y. ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

At page

2-0-4

they

have

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . W h a t d o th e y r e c o m m e n d t o ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I f – if I m a y a d d a ls o .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

There is a bit of a – you know – a factual

error here because I remember that Ravi Puri and Sunil Kumar were not
e m p l o y e e s o f Es s e l M e d i a b u t t h e y w e r e e m p l o y e e s o f a c o m p a n y
20

c a l l e d S T V w h ic h is o w n e d b y t h e b r o t h e r o f M r L a x m i G o e l .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

So they were not – to the best of my

k n o w l e d g e I r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t e m p l o y e e s o f E s s e l M e d ia b u t
t h e y w e r e e m p l o y e e s o f S T V.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i f y o u

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e th e y h a v e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s t h e r e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: “ R e c o m m e n d a t i o n s . T h e f o ll o w i n g
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s

are

d is c u s s io n s a b o u t:

made

based

on

the

t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r ta k e n o te o f

t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h is r e p o r t .

Fo r e ig n e m p l o y e e s o n

v is it o r ’s v is a s b e o r d e r e d t o l e a v e t h e c o u n tr y a n d
b e a l l o w e d t o a p p ly fo r t h e c o r r e c t p e r m i ts fr o m
c o u n tr y o f o r i g i n . ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
10

Ye s a n d th a t w a s s ig n e d – t h e

p e r s o n ’s n a m e t h a t is p u t u n d e r t h e r e – t h e s i g n a t u r e – u n d e r
s ig n a tu r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: M k u s e l i A p le n i.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e d e s i g n a t io n ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Okay

and

then

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s a p p r o v e d a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o s i g n e d is th e
M i n is t e r o f H o m e A ff a ir s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s w h o is th a t p e r s o n ?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I t is M s G N M P a n d o r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e d a t e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h e d a t e is 2 1 / 0 9 / 2 0 1 3 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o w o u l d y o u th e n a c c e p t
t h a t th e r e w a s a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t w a s d o n e i m m e d ia t e l y a f te r t h e s e
c o m p la i n t s b e c a u s e y o u r c o m p la i n t i s d a t e d 4 S e p t e m b e r /6 S e p t e m b e r

Page 32 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
…
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A n d b y th e ti m e y o u w r o t e in

O c t o b e r a n i n q u ir y – a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n h a d b e e n d o n e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

However informal it was but it

had been conducted.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I t h a d b e e n c o n d u c te d …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: B u t I th i n k I s h o u l d h a v e b e e n g i v e n a – y o u
k n o w – a s a y i n th is – y o u k n o w – t h e y s h o u l d h a v e a s k e d m e b e c a u s e I
h a v e g iv e n t h e m – y o u k n o w – th e f e w i n a c c u r a c i e s t h a t h a v e c o m e i n .
A ls o – y o u k n o w – t h e s e a r e t h e n a m e s t h a t I r e m e m b e r o f t h e e d i t o r ia l
s t a ff . Th e r e w e r e a w h o l e l o t o f o t h e r l a b o u r – la b o u r e r s w o u ld c o m e in
t h e r e , t h e c o n s tr u c t io n w o r k e r s , t h e s k i ll e d /u n s k i ll e d p e o p l e . T h a t h a s
n o t b e e n p a r t o f t h i s i n v e s t ig a ti o n w h ic h i s s o m e th i n g t h a t I m e n ti o n e d
in m y c o m p l a i n t a s w e l l . S o – s o w h a t th e y h a v e d o n e h e r e i s t h a t t h e y
h a v e s e l e c t iv e l y u s e d c e r t a i n e le m e n ts .

I w a s n o t p a r t o f t h is – y o u

k n o w – I w a s n e v e r c o n t a in e d f o r m y v i e w s o n th is – o n m y c o m p l a in t
20

b u t a w h o l e l o t o f t h e o th e r s w h o h a d c o m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y e v e r a c k n o w l e d g e r e c e ip t o f y o u r c o m p la i n t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y e v e r w r i te t o y o u …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: N e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r c o m m u n ic a te w i t h y o u i n a n y w a y ?

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I t h a s b e e n a b o u t s ix y e a r s n o w. I h a v e n o t
received any …
CHAIRPERSON: And …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

A c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o r a n y – a n y th i n g fr o m

them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t is o n l y w h e n y o u w e r e p r e p a r i n g f o r g i v i n g y o u r
e v i d e n c e h e r e t h a t y o u g o t t o k n o w th a t s o m e t h i n g …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Wa s d o n e e v e n th o u g h i t w a s – d i d n o t c o v e r

e v e r y b o d y t h a t y o u h a d c o m p la in e d a b o u t a n d …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s n o t a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n a d e q u a te ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u a n d I r e fe r r e d y o u

y e s t e r d a y t o p a g e 2 - 1 - 3 – i f y o u r e c a ll w h e r e y o u r n a m e a p p e a r s a s
it e m n u m b e r 3 1 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Yo u r e c a ll t h a t ?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I w o u l d li k e y o u to g o t o
page 2-1-4.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th e r e a s y o u c a n s e e th e r e a r e
n a m e s th e r e th a t a r e h i g h l ig h te d in r e d .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H u h - u h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A n d th e r e is – t h e r e s e e m s to

b e a p a g e m is s i n g b u t – b u t i t d o e s n o t b e c a u s e i t i s a c o n t in u a ti o n
fr o m 3 1 .

I beg your pardon.

So if you look at – there are one, two,

t h r e e , fo u r n a m e s th a t a r e h i g h li g h te d i n r e d .

C o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d

t h o s e n a m e s a n d r e a d w h a t t h e y a r e – t h e n a t u r e o f t h e ir v is a s a n d
a ls o r e a d w h a t th e c o m m e n t i s r i g h t a t t h e e n d – t h a t is t h e l a s t c o l u m n
– t h e f o u r t h c o l u m n – t h e f if t h c o l u m n ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: S o i t e m n u m b e r 3 3 …
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

I s A n a n d Pr a k a s h .

There is a passport

n u m b e r w h i c h is g iv e n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Vi s it o r s v i s a is s u e d o n 1 4 / 0 8 / 2 0 1 3 w it h t h e
c o n d i ti o n f o r b u s i n e s s m e e ti n g s v a l id f o r 3 0 d a y s – e x p ir e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H e w a s a s tu d i o d ir e c t o r. H e w a s n o t t h e r e
f o r m e e t in g s . H e w a s a c tu a l ly a s tu d io d i r e c t o r d o in g w o r k i n t h e P C R
s w it c h i n g v i d e o s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d h a d th e y c o n t a c t e d y o u
b e f o r e c o n d u c ti n g t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n y o u w o u ld h a v e g iv e n t h e m t h a t
in f o r m a ti o n ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: A b s o l u t e ly. I w o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , th a n k y o u a n d t h e n t h e

next name?

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: 3 6 , S a n j a y P a n d e y. H is p a s s p o r t n u m b e r is
g iv e n a n d v is i to r ’s v is a is s u e d o n 1 2 /0 8 / 2 0 1 3 w it h th e c o n d it i o n f o r
b u s i n e s s m e e ti n g s v a l i d f o r 9 0 d a y s a n d i t i s v a l id a n d le f t t h e c o u n t r y
b u t h e w a s n o t th e r e fo r b u s i n e s s m e e ti n g s . H e w a s a c t u a ll y th e o n e
w h o c o o r d i n a t e d t h e w h o l e p r o d u c ti o n f o r th e l a u n c h a n d h e w a s a ls o
t a k i n g c a r e o f th e o v e r a ll P C R o p e r a ti o n s w h il e th e l a u n c h h a p p e n e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

S o h e w a s a c t u a ll y w o r k in g a t t h e M i d r a n d

O ff ic e .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n n u m b e r 3 8 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

D e e p a k K a u s h ik , v is it o r ’s v i s a i s s u e d o n

1 4 / 0 8 / 2 0 1 3 w i t h a c o n d i ti o n f o r b u s in e s s m e e t i n g s v a li d fo r 3 0 d a y s ,
e x p ir e d l e ft t h e c o u n tr y. H e w a s a ls o w o r k in g d u r in g t h e la u n c h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A r e y o u a b l e t o te ll w h e t h e r

t h e y l e f t b e f o r e y o u le f t t h e c o u n tr y o r a f te r y o u l e ft ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h e y l e f t a f t e r I l e f t t h e c o u n tr y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A f t e r y o u le f t th e c o u n tr y ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
20

T h a n k y o u a n d th e n t h e l a s t

one?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Vi s h n u S h a n k a r, th e y h a v e g o t h is p a s s p o r t .
Vis i to r ’s p e r m it is s u e d o n 1 2 / 0 8 / 2 0 1 3 w i t h t h e c o n d it i o n f o r b u s i n e s s
m e e ti n g s v a l id f o r 6 0 d a y s – 6 0 d a y s y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Va li d , l e f t t h e c o u n tr y. H e w a s p a r t o f th e

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
o u t p u t t e s t t h e r e . H e w a s c le a r in g s c r i p t s . H e w a s m a k in g r u n d o w n s
a n d – a n d h e w a s d o i n g e d i t o r i a l w o r k i n v i o la t io n o f th e v i s a t h a t h e
w a s is s u e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o a s fa r a s y o u a r e

c o n c e r n e d e v e n t h e in f o r m a t io n th a t i s h e r e is u n r e li a b l e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

I w o u ld s a y t h a t – y o u k n o w – b e c a u s e w e

h a d a n e w s r o o m f u l l o f j o u r n a li s t s w h o k n e w w h a t t h e s e p e o p le w e r e
doing.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

If they had gone not to me but any of the

p e o p l e w o r k i n g a t t h a t ti m e a t A N N 7 t h e y w o u ld h a v e k n o w n t h a t th e s e
people were working there.

They were not there for meetings.

They

w e r e n o t th e r e f o r a n y o th e r p u r p o s e – n o t a s t o u r is ts – b u t t h e y w e r e
a c t u a ll y a c t iv e ly w o r k in g i n th e n e w s r o o m …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

I n v io l a t i o n a n d I w o u ld w a n t t o s t a te h e r e

a s w e ll t h a t I d i d n o t s i g n o ff o n t h e s e a p p o i n t m e n ts . I d i d n o t s i g n o ff
o n a n y o f t h e s e p e o p le c o m i n g a n d w o r k in g i n S o u t h A f r i c a .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

T h is

was

put

b e fo r e

me

and

I

had

c a t e g o r ic a l ly s a i d I w o u l d n o t d o i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n l a s tl y

if I m a y j u s t ta k e y o u to p a g e 3 6 5 o r m a y b e t h i s is a p a r li a m e n t a r y j u s t
f o r a u t h e n t ic a ti o n p u r p o s e s . I f I m a y ju s t t a k e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o p a g e
359.

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: 3 6 9 ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
yes.

3 - 5 - 9 – 3 - 5 - 9 M r C h a ir.

I t is j u s t t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e b u n d l e .

3-5-9

Are you there

M r S u n d a r a m ? F o u n d it ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . Th a t is – th a t
d o c u m e n t h a s a l o g o H o m e A ff a ir s D e p a r t m e n t a n d i t is w r i t t e n
s u b m is s io n a n d th e n s u b j e c t – w h a t i s t h e s u b j e c t th e r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
10

P a r l ia m e n t a r y

Q u e s ti o n

Number

2490

N a t io n a l A s s e m b l y : w r it t e n r e p ly – M r G B D Mc I n to s h C O P E .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d w h a t is t h e p u r p o s e o f
that?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

To p r o v i d e M i n is t e r w i th a d r a f t r e s p o n s e

a tt a c h e d a s A n n e x u r e 1 – t h e P a r l ia m e n t a r y Q u e s ti o n 2 4 9 0 ( N A ) fo r
c o n s i d e r a ti o n a n d a p p r o v a l .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d i f y o u g o t o a – a n d

t h e n i t is t h e p a g e t h a t h a s g o t s i g n a t u r e s . I f y o u g o to p a g e 3 6 1 t h e r e
is a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h e r e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

And

what

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
approve

th e

“ I t is r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t M i n i s t e r

d r a ft

response

prepared

by

th e

d e p a r t m e n t in r e s p e c t o f P a r li a m e n t a r y Q u e s t io n
2490.”

Page 38 of 127

is

the

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d i t i s s ig n e d b y t h e

D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l o n 3 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

And it appears to have been

a p p r o v e d b y t h e M i n is te r o n w h ic h d a te ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s . O n 6 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n th e r e is a h u g e

lis t . I a m s u r e i t s t a r t e d w i th t h e C h ie f D ir e c t o r s , C h i e f A d m i n C l e r k s
b u t a t p a g e 3 6 3 t h e n w e g e t t o s e e w h a t t h e a c t u a l q u e s ti o n 2 4 9 0 t h a t
10

w a s p o s e d b y M r M c In t o s h w h a t – w h a t th e q u e s t io n w a s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O k a y. C o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d t h a t
in t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: O n w h ic h p a g e is t h is ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : P a g e 3 - 6 - 3 .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: 2 4 9 0 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : 2 4 9 0 , y e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: J a .
“ W h e th e r h e r d e p a r t m e n t w il l t a k e a n y s t e p s w i th

20

r e g a r d to a ll e g a t io n s d e t a i ls f u r n is h e d t h a t s o m e
s t a ff m e m b e r s fr o m In d i a w e r e e m p l o y e d il l e g a l ly
a n d w i t h o u t w o r k p e r m i ts b y A fr ic a N e w s N e tw o r k 7 .
I f n o t w h a t is t h e d e p a r t m e n t ’s p o s i ti o n w i t h r e g a r d
t o a , t h is m a t t e r a n d b , o th e r w h i s tl e b l o w e r s w h o
b r i n g s i mi l a r o c c u r r e n c e s to t h e a t t e n t io n o f a

Page 39 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
d e p a r t m e n t. I f s o w h a t a r e th e r e l e v a n t d e t a il s ? ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i f y o u
t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e a t p a g e 3 6 4 t h a t q u e s ti o n a s y o u c a n s e e th e r e is a
s t a m p th a t a p p e a r s t o b e fr o m P a r l ia m e n t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A t th e b o t to m o f t h a t p a g e

d a t e d 1 7 S e p te m b e r. N o I t h i n k t h i s i s th e c o p y t h a t w a s r e c e iv e d b y
10

the Commission.

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n – r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n

fr o m P a r li a m e n t a n d i t is m a r k e d 2 9 8 0 b u t I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o g o t o
p a g e 3 6 6 b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e a r e p ly i s g i v e n b y th e d e p a r t m e n t t o
the question.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H u h - u h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Mr C h a i r p e r s o n w e c a n c o n f ir m
that this appears to be incomplete but it is indeed complete. We had
r e c e i v e d i t fr o m P a r li a m e n t . Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e r e p ly – w h a t is t h e
r e p ly t o t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t is a l r e a d y r e a d a t p a g e 3 6 6 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
20

“ T h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a i r s a c t e d i m m e d i a t e ly
o n t h e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t A fr ic a N e w s N e t w o r k 7 h a d
e m p l o y e d f o r e i g n n a ti o n a ls w i th o u t p r o p e r w o r k
p e r m it s .

I t w a s a l le g e d in t h e c o m p la i n t r e c e iv e d

b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t e i g h t fo r e i g n n a ti o n a ls w e r e
e m p l o y e d b y A N N 7 w i t h o u t p r o p e r w o r k p e r m i ts . A

Page 40 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
p a r l ia m e n t a r y i n v e s t ig a ti o n – a p r e li m i n a r y … ”
S o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

“A

preliminary

i n v e s t ig a t io n

c o n d u c t e d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t c o n fir m e d t h a t e ig h t
f o r e i g n e r s w e r e i n p o s s e s s io n o f v i s i t o r ’s p e r m i ts
a n d i n t h e c o u n tr y l e g a ll y.

T h e c o n d i ti o n o f th e

p e r m it s a l lo w e d t h e m t o a t te n d b u s i n e s s m e e ti n g s .
T h e d e p a r t m e n t a l s o d is c o v e r e d t h a t f o u r o f t h e
10

e i g h t f o r e i g n e r s h a d a lr e a d y l e f t th e c o u n t r y a n d t h e
r e m a in in g fo u r w e r e f o u n d to b e c o n d u c ti n g t r a in i n g
f o r e m p l o y e e s b u t t h e y w e r e n o t o n th e p a y r o l l o f
A N N 7 . D e s p i te t h e f a c t t h a t A N N 7 d id n o t c o n s i d e r
them

to

be

employees

since

they

were

not

r e m u n e r a t e d f o r s u c h a n a c ti v i ty th e d e p a r t m e n t
found

th a t t h e

c o n d i ti o n

of

four

t h e ir

p e r s o n s w h o v io l a te d

p e r m i ts

o r d e r e d t o l e a v e t h e c o u n tr y.

and

were

therefore

The department has

c o n fir m e d t h a t th e y a ll h a v e l e f t th e c o u n tr y.
20

the

The

d e p a r t m e n t u n d e r s ta n d s th a t w h is tl e b l o w e r s r a i s e
c o n c e r n s s o t h a t th o s e c o n c e r n s c a n b e a d d r e s s e d .
A n y p e r s o n w h o w o u l d li k e t o r a is e c o n c e r n s a b o u t
s i m il a r

occurrences

is

encouraged

to

call

th e

d e p a r t m e n t h o t li n e o n 0 8 0 0 6 0 11 9 0 a n d t h e y c a n d o
s o a n o n y m o u s ly a n d a r e a ls o n o t e x p e c t e d to p r o v e

Page 41 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t h e a l le g a ti o n s . ”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s ,

th a n k

you.

The

C h a ir p e r s o n a s k e d y o u w h e t h e r y o u w e r e e v e r c o n ta c t e d b y t h e
d e p a r t m e n t a f t e r y o u h a d fi le d y o u r c o m p l a i n ts . M a y b e i t is – i t w o u ld
b e p r o p e r f o r m e t o r e fe r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o a s u b m is s i o n t h a t
M r A p l e n i h a s p u t u p a n d h i s e x p la n a ti o n a b o u t y o u r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .
I f I m a y j u s t r e f e r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o p a g e 1 – i t is a l e tt e r – i t i s a
s u b m is s io n b u t fr a m e d in th e f o r m o f a l e tt e r a d d r e s s e d t o t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n – t o th e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e C o m m is s i o n . P a g e 1 o f t h a t . Yo u
10

ju s t h a v e t o – r i g h t – r i g h t a t th e b e g i n n i n g .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: P a g e 1 ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ar e y o u o n p a g e 1 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A s y o u c a n s e e i t is a d d r e s s e d
t o M r P e d l a r w h o is th e A c t i n g S e c r e t a r y o f th e C o m m is s i o n .

In

p a r a g r a p h 4 o f t h a t c o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d b r i e fly w h a t h e s a y s th e r e ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
not

k n o w,

“ I w i s h to s t a t e u p fr o n t t h a t I d o

have

never

met,

received

any

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o r e v e r s p o k e n to a n y G u p ta f a m il y
20

member of associates.”
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 8 h e
d e a ls w i t h t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h e r e .

Th a t w e h a v e d e a l t – w e h a v e

d e a lt w i t h y o u r e m a il s …
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: h u h - u h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Those

Page 42 of 127

dated

the

4th and

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
6 S e p t e m b e r. W h a t d o e s h e s a y a b o u t h i m n o t r e c e i v i n g t h o s e e m a il s ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Yo u w a n t m e t o r e a d t h a t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: O k a y.
“ I n t h is c a s e a c c o r d i n g t o th e in f o r m a ti o n p r o v i d e d
t o m e b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t i n p a r ti c u l a r fr o m t h e D G s
O ff ic e

th e

e m a il s

dated

th e

6 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 w e r e n e v e r r e c e iv e d .

4th

and

Based on

t h is r e s p o n s e I h a v e r e q u e s t e d a c o n f ir m a ti o n f r o m
10

t h e D e p a r t m e n t’s I n fo r m a ti o n Te c h n o lo g y S e c t io n
w h ic h i n d ic a te s t h a t t h e y h a v e r e v i e w e d m y e m a il
a c c o u n t a n d c o u l d n o t fi n d t h e m e n ti o n e d e m a i ls .
I n t h is c a s e I w is h to r e fe r t h e a t t e n t i o n o f t h e
Commission to Annexure 4 attached herein for ease
of reference.

T h e r e fo r e t h e o n l y e m a i l w h ic h m y

t h e n o ffi c e r e c e iv e d w a s t h a t o f 9 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 a n d
t h e v ie w o f t h e o ffic e w a s t h a t t h e m a tt e r w a s
a lr e a d y c lo s e d s i n c e t h e r e p o r t b y t h e I n s p e c to r a t e
was already concluded.
20

In th is r e g a r d I w is h t o

s t a te t h a t th e s a i d e m a i l o f 9 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 w a s
n e v e r b r o u g h t to m y p e r s o n a l a tt e n ti o n . ”
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

Then in

s u m m a r y o f y o u r e v i d e n c e a b o u t th e s e e m p l o y e e s w h o h a d t h e s e v is a s
w h ic h w o u ld b e l e g a ll y o b t a i n e d in a m a n n e r in f a c t c o n fir m e d s o m e
w h o h a v e l e f t t h e c o u n t r y. D o y o u k n o w o f a n y o f t h e s e e m p l o y e e s w h o

Page 43 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
a r e s ti ll w i t h i n t h e c o u n tr y ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: N o , n o t a w a r e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s , th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g o t a c h a n c e t o r e a d Mr A p l e n i ’s d o c u m e n t a ti o n
in r e g a r d t o w h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s d i d , is t h a t r ig h t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I have not read the whole thing, I have

g o n e t h r o u g h t h e s u m m a r y, th e r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n s o f t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll d i d y o u c o m e a c r o s s a n y th in g th a t s u g g e s t
t h a t t h e in v e s ti g a t io n t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a i r s d i d e n t a i le d
10

d o i n g s o m e th i n g a g a i n s t o r a b o u t t h o s e o t h e r th a n t h e e m p l o y e e s o th e r
t h a n th e e m p l o y e e s fr o m I n d i a w h o m a y h a v e f a c i li t a te d t h e b r e a k i n g o f
t h e la w i n r e g a r d t o t h e ir e m p lo y m e n t ? D id y o u c o m e a c r o s s a n y th i n g
t h a t s u g g e s te d t h a t th e D e p a r t m e n t h a d d o n e s o m e t h i n g a b o u t th is , h a d
r e p o r t e d i t t o t h e r e l e v a n t a u th o r i ti e s o r D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r o r th e
P o lic e o r t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u th o r i ty, d i d y o u c o m e a c r o s s
a n y th in g l ik e th a t ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I n m y r e a d in g I ’v e s e e n t h e y ’ v e t a lk e d

a b o u t t h e e m p l o y e e s b u t w h a t a c t i o n th e y ’v e ta k e n a g a in s t t h e
e m p l o y e r fo r v io la t in g t h e v is a n o r m s is s o m e th i n g th a t I d o n o t k n o w.
20

T h e y d o a c c e p t th a t t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e w o r k i n g o n w o r k , o n v is i t v i s a s
a n d b u s i n e s s v i s a s h e r e , b u t th a t p u r e ly i s a v i o l a ti o n o f t h e la w, b u t I
w o u ld a ls o l ik e t o s a y t h a t y o u k n o w a s a w h is t le b l o w e r i n t h i s m a t t e r
t h e fa c t t h a t I w a s n e v e r c o n ta c te d t o g e t in f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e I h a d a ll
t h e in f o r m a t io n a b o u t t h e s e p e o p l e , A N N 7 w o u l d s a y t h a t t h e y w e r e
h e r e f o r tr a in in g o r f o r b u s in e s s m e e ti n g s , b u t t h e fa c t th a t t h e y w e r e

Page 44 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
n o t I w a s n o t c o n s u l te d , a n d I a m a l s o s u r p r i s e d th a t y o u h a v e a
newsroom full of people who are working with them, none of those
e m p l o y e e s a t A N N 7 w e r e a ls o c o n t a c t e d d u r i n g th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n , s o I
fi n d t h a t a l i t tl e p u z z l in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h e r e a r e n o s t a t e m e n ts fr o m t h o s e e m p lo y e e s

w h e t h e r t h e y j u s t a t t e n d e d m e e t i n g s o r th e y a c t u a ll y w o r k e d o r
a n y th in g l ik e th a t .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

Al s o t h e p e o p l e w h o w o r k e d i n th e

n e w s r o o m , f o r i n s t a n c e Vi s h n u S h a n k a r w a s th e r e c le a r in g s c r i p ts , s o
10

y o u c a n a s k a n y o f t h e j o u r n a l is ts w h o w e r e w o r k i n g a t th a t ti m e
w h e t h e r h e w a s w o r k in g o r h e w a s t h e r e a t te n d i n g m e e t i n g s .

There

w o u ld b e m u lt i p l e p e o p l e i n t h e n e w s r o o m , th e y w o u l d s a y t h a t h e w a s
making run-downs, he was working in a shift there, you know if you give
h i m t h e m o r n i n g s h i f t h e w o u l d c o m e i n t h e m o r n in g s h i f t o r e v e n in g
s h i f t , h e w a s w o r k i n g t h e r e i n th e n e w s r o o m , a n d t h e r e a r e d o z e n s o f
w i t n e s s e s to th a t , n o n e o f w h o m I t h i n k w e r e c o n t a c t e d a s p e r m y
r e a d in g o f th is . I t w a s a n in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t w a s c o n d u c te d ( in d is ti n c t)
o f n a t u r a l j u s t ic e n o t fo ll o w e d b e c a u s e y o u k n o w i f I ’ m t h e c o m p l a i n a n t
a n d I’ m t h e w h i s t l e b lo w e r I s h o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n t a c t e d to g iv e m o r e
20

d e t a i ls , I w a s a l w a y s w il li n g to d o t h a t , a n d i t w a s m e w h o w e n t o u t o f
t h e w a y t o w r i t e n e w s w h i le I w a s a l s o d o i n g o t h e r w o r k i n In d i a , t o
p e r s u a d e t h e m to d o t h is in v e s t i g a t io n a n d w h e n I c o m e h e r e t o S o u t h
A fr ic a a n d i t w a s t h e f ir s t t i m e I k n o w t h a t t h e r e ’s b e e n a n in v e s ti g a t io n
a n d th e s e a r e t h e d e ta il s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m m , o k a y, th a n k y o u .

Page 45 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir.

T h e r e ’s

ju s t s o m e t h i n g th a t w e d i d n ’ t d e a l w i t h y e s t e r d a y t h a t r e la t e s t o h o w
A N N 7 w a s a l lo c a t e d t h e s l o t b y M u l t iC h o ic e .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

C o u l d y o u j u s t b r ie f ly ju s t te ll

t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a s to h o w t h a t h a p p e n e d ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll th e y w e r e v e r y a d a m a n t a b o u t a

p a r t ic u l a r n u m b e r, n o w I h a v e w r i t t e n t h a t n u m b e r in t h e b o o k a n d I
n e e d t o r e fe r t o th a t .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M a y b e i f I c o u l d j u s t r e f e r
t h e w i t n e s s i n s t r u m e n t to p a g e 6 6 o f y o u r b o o k .
CHAIRPERSON: 66?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

I w il l j u s t q u i c k ly r e fe r.

Ye s . J a , t h e s lo t t h a t t h e y w a n te d w a s 4 0 4 b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a
p r i m e s l o t t h a t w a s b e tw e e n t w o e x i s ti n g n e w s s ta t io n s , a n d th e G u p ta
b r o t h e r s f e a r e d th a t D S T V w a s s o m e h o w i n i m i c a l t o t h e m a n d th e y
w o u ld g iv e t h e m a s l o t w h i c h is n o t w i t h th e n e w s c h a n n e ls b u t
s o m e w h e r e e ls e w h e r e i t w o u l d b e d i ffic u lt f o r p e o p l e t o fi n d i t a n d t h a t
20

w o u ld a ff e c t th e ir r a ti n g s , s o – b u t I f o u n d D S T V t o b e e x tr e m e ly
p r o f e s s i o n a l i n t h e ir c o n d u c t , t h e y w o u l d w a n t t e c h n ic a l d e t a i ls , t h e y
w o u ld w a n t t o k n o w y o u n o w w h e t h e r A N N 7 h a s a c t u a ll y s t a r t e d a 2 4
h o u r d r y r u n w h ic h is n e v e r th e c a s e b e fo r e th e s t a t i o n a c tu a lly
la u n c h e d .

A N N 7 w e n t 2 4 / 7 o n b r o a d c a s t t h e d a y i t w a s la u n c h e d .

B e f o r e t h a t t h e y w o u l d d o a f e w h o u r s a n d th e n w i n d i t u p b e c a u s e

Page 46 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
n o n e o f th e e q u ip m e n t o r a ll o f th e e q u i p m e n t th a t w a s r e q u ir e d f o r a
2 4 h o u r o p e r a ti o n h a d n o t c o m e i n . L ik e I s a id b e fo r e e v e n t h e s t u d io
r o b o t ic c a m e r a s c a m e in t h e l a s t m in u t e a n d w e r e b e i n g i n s t a ll e d o n
t h e d a y o f t h e la u n c h .
S o t h e r e w a s a w h o l e l o t o f ly i n g w h ic h w e w e r e r e q u ir e d t o d o
w h e n w e w e n t t o t h e D S T V m e e ti n g s y o u k n o w, s o e s p e c i a l ly M r Y P
Singh who was the

te c h n ic a l , h e w a s l o o k i n g a t t h e

te c h n ic a l

in s t a l l a t i o n a n d t h e i n t e g r a t io n a t t h a t ti m e h e w o u l d b e a s k e d t o g o to
t h o s e m e e t in g s a n d w i t h a s tr a i g h t fa c e h e w o u ld h a v e t o te ll t h e m l ie s
10

a b o u t h o w w e w e r e a t a v e r y a d v a n c e d s t a g e a n d t h a t w e w e r e a lr e a d y
d o i n g 2 4 h o u r n e w s b u ll e ti n s a n d a l l o f th a t .
A ls o I w a s t o l d o n m u l ti p le o c c a s io n s t h a t t h e y w o u l d u s e th e
P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e to p r e s s u r e D S T V t o g iv e th e m t h e s l o t t h a t t h e y
w a n t e d w h ic h is 4 0 4 , a n d t h i s is s o m e th i n g t h a t I w a s t o ld r e p e a te d ly
a n d w e h a d m u l t ip l e m e e t in g s w i t h D S T V a t t h e ir o ff ic e a n d a t e v e r y
ti m e t h e l e v e l o f p r o g r e s s o r y o u k n o w t h e i n s t a l la t io n te c h n o l o g y th e
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w e w e r e g iv i n g th e m w a s a l l w r o n g a n d w e w e r e , m a n y,
many days, many weeks behind schedule.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u , t h e n i f y o u m a y

20

t h e n g o b a c k to o u r s t a t e m e n t , y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th H o m e A ff a ir s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d a t p a r a g r a p h 2 7 y o u d e a l
w i t h c e r t a i n p a y m e n t s th a t w e r e m a d e , c a n y o u j u s t t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n
w h a t is i t t h a t y o u w a n t to c o n v e y i n p a r a g r a p h 2 7 a n d 2 8 p le a s e , a t
page 4 of your statement.

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say paragraph 27 and 28?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a t’s c o r r e c t Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f h is s t a t e m e n t ?
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : O f h is , y e s , t h a n k y o u p a g e 4 .
H a v e y o u fo u n d i t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Page 27?

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , w h a t a r e y o u s a y i n g in

those paragraphs?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
10

W e ll y o u k n o w t h a t m a n y o f t h e e x p e n s e s

w e r e p a i d i n c a s h in ( i n d is ti n c t) i n I n d i a , f o r i n s t a n c e t h e p e r s o n w h o
d e s i g n e d a n d fa b r ic a te d th e s e t w a s p a i d i n I n d i a n R u p e e s b y M r L a x mi
G o e l , I w a s a w i t n e s s t o t h a t . A ls o w a d s i f t h o u s a n d R u p e e n o te s w e r e
h a n d e d o u t t o t h e p e r s o n w h o d i d t h e l o o k a n d f e e l o f t h e s ta t io n , w h ic h
is b a s i c a ll y t h e g r a p h i c s a n d t h e g r a p h i c t e m p la t e s fo r t h e o n - s c r e e n
g r a p h i c s t h a t w e r e t h e r e . H e w a s p a i d i n c a s h i n fr o n t o f m e , in D e lh i
a n d a ls o y o u k n o w g o i n g b a c k t o th e p r e v i o u s p o i n t w h e r e h e s a id th a t
a lo t o f e m p l o y e e s t h a t w e r e n o t p a i d , t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g g r a t is o n
b u s i n e s s v i s a s , t h a t is n o t t r u e b e c a u s e m o s t o f th o s e p e o p l e b e f o r e
t h e y c a m e h e r e w e r e p a i d in c a s h b y M r L a x m i G o e l i n In d ia , t h e ir f ir s t

20

m o n th ’s s a l a r y a n d t h a t’s w h y

th e y

c a m e h e r e s o t h e r e w o u ld b e n o

r e c o r d s o f th e m h a v in g a n y b a n k i n g tr a n s a c t io n s b e tw e e n A N N 7 a n d
them here because they were being paid cash in India.
A ls o t h e r e w e r e m a n y o f th e e m p l o y e e s l ik e f o r i n s t a n c e t h e
la b o u r e r s

who

came

here

to

c o n s tr u c t

the

s tu d i o ,

a ls o

the

h o u s e k e e p i n g , t h e B a l i N a t io n a l w a s w o r k in g t h e r e , t h e y w e r e a l l p a i d

Page 48 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
in c a s h i n In d ia .
S o t h i s i s s o m e t h i n g th a t I k n o w i s a c le a r v i o l a ti o n o f th e t a x
la w s i n I n d i a . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e t a x la w s i n In d i a is t h a t i f y o u ’r e
p a y i n g a n y t h i n g a b o v e 5 0 0 0 R u p e e s it s h o u ld b e d o n e e i t h e r t h r o u g h
a n e l e c tr o n ic tr a n s fe r o r th r o u g h a c h e q u e , y o u c a n n o t h a v e c a s h
p a y m e n t s a n d th is is s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s h a p p e n i n g t h e r e w i th t h e
s a n c ti o n o f th e ( in d i s ti n c t) .

Mr L a x m i G o e l w a s g i v i n g t h i s c a s h y o u

k n o w a t h i s o ffic e a n d t h i s w a s s o m e th i n g t h a t t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s h e r e
k n e w, w h i c h N a z e e m H o w a k n e w a n d t h e y w e r e o k a y w i t h , b e c a u s e
10

t h e s e e m p l o y e e s w e r e c o m i n g fr o m I n d i a a n d y o u k n o w o n r e c o r d s h e r e
it w o u l d b e li k e n o b a n k in g tr a n s a c ti o n s b e t w e e n A N N 7 a n d th e m b u t
t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly b e i n g p a id i n I n d i a fo r t h e w o r k th a t t h e y w e r e d o in g
here.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

S o t h is a g a i n is s o m e th i n g th a t I d i d n o t

approve of at that point.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u .

Mr Chairman

t h a t c o n c l u d e s t h e e v id e n c e o n t h e s t a t e m e n ts o f th e w i tn e s s , i f I m a y
ju s t a t t h is p o i n t a d d r e s s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o n t h e a ffi d a v it s o f Mr
20

W il li a m s w h ic h h e s u b m i tt e d y e s t e r d a y, w h ic h is t h e e x h ib i ts w h ic h a r e
p l a c e d b e fo r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h is m o r n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe before you do that Mr Sundaram you may or

m a y n o t h a v e c o v e r e d th is b u t I j u s t w a n t to c h e c k t h a t y o u h a v e
c o v e r e d it , i n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t , p a g e t h r e e t h e r e o f y o u
o n e , t w o , t h r e e , fo u r, fi v e , s i x , w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e s u b - p a r a g r a p h s u p

Page 49 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t o s e v e n , i n p a r a g r a p h fi v e , n o , i n p a r a g r a p h f o u r y o u s a y :
“ A t u l G u p t a a l s o t o ld m e t h a t a l a r g e n u m b e r o f t h e s e
e m p l o y e e s w o u l d b e b r o u g h t in o n to u r is t v i s a s a n d m a d e to
w o r k f o r a fe w m o n t h s .

If they are not found suitable they

c o u l d b e d is m is s e d a n d s e n t b a c k .

W o r k p e r m i ts w o u l d b e

is s u e d la t e r to t h o s e w h o p r o v e d t h e ir w o r t h . ”
P a r a g r a p h fiv e y o u s a y :
“ W h e n I q u e s t i o n e d A t u l G u p t a a b o u t t h e l e g a li ty o f m a k in g
p e o p l e w o r k o n t o u r is t v is a s h e s a i d . . . ” a n d t h e n y o u q u o t e : “ I
h a v e th e g o v e r n m e n t in m y p o c k e t , y o u d o n ’ t w o r r y a b o u t w h a t

10

is l e g a l a n d w h a t is i ll e g a l . ”
D i d Mr A t u l G u p ta s a y t h a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Ye s h e d i d .

CHAIRPERSON: And you are sure about that?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A b s o l u te ly, I a m y e s .

A n d t h e n i n y o u r b o o k a t p a g e 4 6 y o u t a lk

a b o u t, y o u w r it e a b o u t d is c u s s i o n s r e l a ti n g to t h e W a t e r k lo o f l a n d i n g
in c i d e n t .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: H m m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y, a n d I w i ll r e a d q u i t e a b i t :
“ A t u l s p e n t a l o t o f t i m e ju s ti fy in g t h e W a te r k l o o f la n d i n g
in c i d e n t w h ic h h a p p e n e d j u s t d a y s b e fo r e o u r a r r iv a l a t t h i s
fir s t m e e t in g . ”
A n d th e n y o u q u o t e a n d I t h i n k y o u a r e s u g g e s t in g t h a t th is is w h a t
Atul, Mr Atul Gupta said:

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
“ O u r fa m i ly i s c l o s e t o Pr e s id e n t Z u m a , w e h a v e n e v e r h i d d e n
it . W e a r e a p o w e r f u l fa m i ly a n d I a m s u r e a l l t h e h y p e a r o u n d
t h is la n d i n g w il l a ls o p a s s w i t h ti m e .

W e la n d a t a i r f o r c e

s t a ti o n s i n I n d i a a ll t h e ti m e , s o w h a t is w r o n g w i t h l a n d i n g o u r
g u e s t s a t a n a ir f o r c e b a s e h e r e w i th a ll d u e c l e a r a n c e s .

We

are being targeted.”
And then the last paragraph of that page you quote him as having said:
” P r e s i d e n t Z u m a k n o w s o u r fa m i ly w e ll a n d w e h a v e d e e p
b o n d s w i t h h is f a m ily.
10

W e h a v e e n o u g h in f lu e n c e i n th e

g o v e r n m e n t to c le a r o u r n a m e a n d i t i s n o t j u s t P r e s id e n t
Z u m a , w e h a v e c l o s e l in k s w i t h a l l s e n i o r A N C le a d e r s .

We

a r e ( in d i s ti n c t) , w e a r e I n d ia n J e w s , w e d o n o t k e e p a l l o u r
e g g s in o n e b a s k e t .

W h o e v e r b e c o m e s Pr e s id e n t o f S o u t h

A fr ic a i n t h e y e a r s t o c o m e I c a n a s s u r e y o u h e w i ll b e o u r
fr i e n d . ”
D i d Mr A t u l G u p ta s a y w h a t y o u s a y h e s a i d i n t h is p a g e ?
“
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : O h y e s h e s a i d th e s e th i n g s m u l t ip le t i m e s
y o u k n o w b e c a u s e i m m e d i a t e l y a ft e r w e h a d a r r iv e d h e r e , th a t w a s
20

a r o u n d th e t i m e w h e n t h e W a t e r k lo o f in c i d e n t t h e n h a p p e n e d a n d s o m e
o f t h e p e o p l e w h o h a d c o m e fr o m I n d ia w e r e a li t tl e w o r r i e d w h e t h e r
t h e y t o o k a w r o n g d e c is i o n a n d t h is w a s i n s o m e s e n s e s , a lt h o u g h n o t
d ir e c t ly s a i d b y h i m , b u t t h is – i n s o m e t e r m s t o r e a s s u r e t h e p e o p l e
w h o c a m e fr o m In d i a th a t l o o k y o u d o n ’t n e e d t o w o r r y, i t w o u l d s e e m
lik e y o u k n o w w h e n y o u r e a d i n t h e m e d i a t h a t w e a r e i n a l o t o f

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
tr o u b le , b u t w e a r e n o t , w e ’v e g o t y o u k n o w g r e a t fr i e n d s h ip w i th th e
P r e s i d e n t , a n d h e s a id m u l ti p l e ti m e s t h a t w e ’v e g o t th e g o v e r n m e n t i n
o u r p o c k e t. N o w t h a t ’s s o m e t h i n g th a t h e w o u l d k e e p r e p e a t in g , lik e i f
I a s k e d h i m a b o u t th e v is a v i o la t io n s h e w o u ld s a y o h w e ’v e g o t th e
g o v e r n m e n t in o u r p o c k e ts , y o u d o n ’ t w o r r y a b o u t w h a t ’s l e g a l a n d
w h a t ’s n o t l e g a l , s o t h i s i s s o m e t h i n g th a t h e w o u l d k e e p r e p e a ti n g p o s t
t h e W a t e r k lo o f in c i d e n t , e s p e c ia ll y if h e f o u n d s o m e b o d y a l i tt l e w o r r i e d
a b o u t y o u k n o w a l l t h e m e d i a , t h e n e g a ti v e m e d ia th a t t h e G u p t a s w e r e
g e t t in g y o u k n o w.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm, mmm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : S o r r y M r C h a ir m a n i t h a s b e e n
b r o u g h t t o m y a t te n ti o n th a t i t i s q u a r te r p a s t e l e v e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s m a y b e l e t ’s j u s t f i n is h o n e o r t w o o t h e r s th a t I

w a n t to c h e c k w it h M r S u n d a r a m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k y o u d i d c o v e r t h i s y e s t e r d a y i n r e g a r d to

s u g g e s t io n s o f p r e s e n te r s , y o u s a y a t p a g e 1 0 8 o f y o u r b o o k :
“ N a z e e m a n d A t u l a ls o h a d a li s t o f p r e s e n t e r s s e n t b y
President
20

Zu m a ,

th is

i n c lu d e d

former

Government

spokesperson Jimmy Manyi.”
D i d y o u , is th a t tr u e ?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

T h a t is tr u e y e s .

I want to add that you

k n o w t h i s w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s r e c o m m e n d e d b y Pr e s id e n t Zu m a in
o n e o f t h e m e e ti n g s , y o u k n o w w h e n t h e y w e r e a s k e d a b o u t p r e s e n t e r s
I v e r y d is ti n c tl y r e m e m b e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a t e l li n g N a z e e m t h a t y o u

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
k n o w h e th i n k s J i m m y M a n y i w o u l d b e a g o o d p r e s e n t e r a n d th a t h e
should be considered.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e w i ll t a k e th e te a a d jo u r n m e n t a n d j u s t h a v e
a l o o k a t o n e o r tw o th i n g s t h a t I ju s t w a n t t o c h e c k w h e t h e r – d o y o u
c o n fir m t h a t?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l t a k e t h e te a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w, a n d r e s u m e a t
t w e n ty fi v e t o t w e l v e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
10

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u s t w a n t t o d r a w – to c h e c k s o m e t h i n g .

Mr

S u n d a r a m . I a m s o r r y. I n – a t p a g e 8 2 o f y o u r b o o k y o u – y o u s a y t h e
f o ll o w i n g s o m e w h e r e i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e li k e L a x m i I h o p e I
p r o n o u n c e d th e n a m e c o r r e c tly.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H e I t h i n k t h a t is A t u l – M r A tu l G u p t a b e c a u s e
e v e n t h e p r e v io u s s e n te n c e y o u t a lk a b o u t h i m .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s C h a i r m a n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y :
“ L i k e L a x m i h e b l a m e d t h e m e d ia f o r p la y in g u p th e
in c i d e n t .

H e c la i m e d h i s f a m ily h a d th e r e q u ir e d

p e r m is s io n to le n d t h e j e t a n d i n th e s a m e b r e a t h h e
m e n ti o n e d th e p r o x i m i ty h is fa m i ly e n j o y e d w it h
P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a n d h is fa m i ly. ”

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A n d th e n y o u q u o t e a n d y o u a t tr i b u te t h is t o M r A t u l G u p t a a n d I g u e s s
I w il l s e e i n y o u r s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t w h ic h c o d e s y o u r e g a r d a s
proper codes or where you meant to just make the point and did not
mean to say that is what the person said word for word.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u , y o u s a y a n d y o u q u o te a n d y o u s a y :
“ A t u l G u p t a s a i d Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a is o n o u r s i d e . H e
k n o w s o u r f a m i ly a n d w e h e lp e d h i m w h e n h e w a s
d o w n a n d o u t . H e w il l h e lp u s t h r o u g h t h is a s w e l l .
10

Yo u k n o w t o p m i n is t e r s o f t h e Z u m a c a b i n e t a t t e n d e d
t h e w o r d i n g . T h i s is a d i r e c t e n d o r s e m e n t f o r u s .
T h e p e r s o n n e l a g a i n s t w h o m a c ti o n h a s b e e n t a k e n
w i ll b e r e in s ta t e d v e r y s o o n .

W e a r e a n i n fl u e n t ia l

f a m ily h e r e a n d n o o n e c a n p o in t fi n g e r s a t u s . ”
A t u l b o a s te d . I d i d n o t r e a d t h is t o y o u b e f o r e d id I ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d i d n o t r e a d th is b e f o r e ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : N o y o u d id n o t M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. N o w d id M r A t u l G u p ta s a y t h i s t o y o u ?
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s h e d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o d o u b t a b o u t i t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: N o h e s a i d t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: A b s o l u t e ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a v e g o t i t i n q u o t e s c o u l d i t b e t h a t i t is n o t

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
w o r d f o r w o r d b u t h e m a d e t h e s e p o i n ts o r i s i t w h a t h e s a i d w o r d fo r
word?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h is is n o t w o r d t o w o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

B u t th is is s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e h a s t o l d m e

m a n y ti m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

O r w e ll t h e i n te r a c t io n s o v e r t h e m o n th s

that I working there.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l y o u s e e t h e r e – t h e r e a r e tw o p a r ts i n t h is
p a s s a g e t h a t a t tr a c t m y a t t e n t io n . Th e o n e i s t h a t a c c o r d in g t o y o u M r
A t u l G u p t a s a i d t h a t P r e s id e n t Z u m a is o n o u r s id e h e k n o w s o u r f a m il y
a n d w e h e l p e d h i m w h e n h e w a s d o w n a n d o u t . H e w i ll h e l p u s t h r o u g h
– t h r o u g h t h is a s w e l l . N o w w h a t a t tr a c ts m e to t h a t i s t h a t e a r l ie r t h i s
y e a r o n e o f t h e w it n e s s e s w h o h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e b e fo r e m e M r Fi k i le
M b a l u la h e i s a m e m b e r I b e li e v e o f th e N a t io n a l E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e
o f t h e r u li n g p a r ty t h e A N C a n d a t d i ff e r e n t t i m e s h a s b e e n M i n i s t e r a n d
D e p u ty M in is t e r i n Pr e s id e n t Z u m a ’s g o v e r n m e n t .
b e e n a p p o in t e d a t M i n is te r r e c e n tly a s w e l l.

20

He is a – he has

When he gave evidence

b e f o r e m e o n e o f t h e th i n g s h e s a id w a s t h a t i n a c e r t a i n N E C m e e ti n g
o f t h e A N C t h e q u e s t i o n o f t h e p r o x i m i t y o f P r e s i d e n t Zu m a t o t h e
G u p t a fa m i ly w a s r a i s e d a n d t h e r e w a s c o n c e r n th a t th a t fr i e n d s h ip o r
a l le g e d f r i e n d s h ip b e t w e e n t h e m w a s d a m a g i n g t h e i m a g e o f t h e r u li n g
p a r t y a n d th e i m a g e o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t .

A n d Mr M b a lu l a s a i d M r

Z u m a ’s r e s p o n s e e i th e r o n t h a t o c c a s i o n o r o n o th e r o c c a s i o n s a n d

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
maybe it is not but Mr Mbabula maybe it is another witness I am not
s u r e n o w o r m a y b e i t w a s Mr R a m a t lh o d i I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b u t o n e o f
the – one of the witnesses said who attended who was a NEC member
s a i d M r Z u m a w h e n a s k e d w h y h e w a s n o t te r m i n a ti n g h is fr i e n d s h ip
w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m il y h e s a i d th a t th a t f a m il y h a d h e l p e d h i s c h il d r e n
w h e n n o b o d y e ls e c o u ld h e l p t h e m . I t h i n k i n t e r m s o f e m p l o y m e n t. S o
I j u s t fi n d i t i n t e r e s t in g th a t y o u s a y t h a t M r A t u l G u p t a s a i d P r e s id e n t
Z u m a is o n o u r s i d e h e k n o w s o u r fa m i ly a n d w e h e lp e d h i m w h e n h e
w a s d o w n a n d o u t . H e w il l h e lp u s t h r o u g h t h is a s w e ll . S o I – th a t is
10

o n e o f th in g s t h a t a t tr a c t e d m e . T h e s e c o n d o n e is t h a t y o u s a y Mr A t u l
G u p t a s a i d t h e p e r s o n n e l a g a i n s t w h o m a c t io n h a s b e e n t a k e n w i ll b e
r e i n s t a te d v e r y s o o n . N o w y o u m u s t j u s t t e l l m e w h a t p e r s o n n e l w e r e –
was he talking about there?

I th i n k t h i s w a s in t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e

Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d i n g i f I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u s a y i n th e b o o k ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s h e – w h a t w a s Mr A t u l G u p t a t a lk i n g a b o u t
w h e n h e s a id th e p e r s o n n e l a g a i n s t w h o m a c ti o n h a s b e e n ta k e n w il l b e
r e i n s t a te d v e r y s o o n . W e a r e a n in f lu e n ti a l fa m i ly h e r e a n d n o o n e w il l
– c a n p o i n t f in g e r s a t u s .
20

MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

W e ll t h is w a s a r o u n d t h e t i m e w h e n th e

Wa t e r k l o o f i n c i d e n t w a s b e i n g in v e s t i g a t e d a n d th e r e w e r e a f e w
o ffic i a ls w h o h a d b e e n – th e r e w a s s o m e a c ti o n t h a t w a s t a k e n a g a in s t
t h e m a n d th e y w e r e i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y w e r e e i t h e r d is m is s e d o r
s u s p e n d e d f r o m s e r v ic e . S o y o u k n o w s o t h is w a s t h e t i m e a n d a l o t o f
t h e p e o p l e w h o h a d c o m e fr o m I n d ia w e r e g e t t in g a li t tl e a n x i o u s a b o u t

Page 56 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t h e Wa t e r k l o o f a n d i f y o u k n o w t h e k i n d o f i m p a c t i t w o u ld h a v e o n t h e
f a m ily.

S o h e w o u ld b o a s t a n d t e l l u s o n m u l ti p l e o c c a s io n s t h a t

w h o e v e r – y o u k n o w – o f c o u r s e i n th e s h o r t t e r m t h e w o u ld h a v e to
s h o w t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e a c t io n t h a t w a s ta k e n th a t s o m e h e a d s h a v e
rolled.

B u t h e s a id t h o s e d o n o t w o r r y a b o u t t h e m t h e y w il l b e a l l

r e i n s t a te d . T h a t y o u k n o w h e w i ll u s e w h a te v e r i n fl u e n c e is t h e r e t h a t
a n y b o d y w h o h e l p e d h i m w ill n o t f a c e a n y c o n s e q u e n c e s o f t h e ir a c ti o n
a n d t h a t t h e y w o u ld b e r e i n s t a te d a t a b e t t e r p o s i t io n a t a fu t u r e d a t e .
N o w I w o u l d n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h a t h a p p e n e d b u t t h a t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t
10

h e w o u l d t a lk a b o u t .

T h a t h e w o u ld e n s u r e t h a t a n y b o d y w h o f a c e d

a c ti o n b e c a u s e t h e y h e l p e d th e G u p t a f a m ily d u r i n g th e Wa t e r k lo o f
in c i d e n t w il l n o t – y o u k n o w t h e y m a y h a v e – b e fa c i n g c o n s e q u e n c e s in
t h e s h o r t t e r m b u t i n t h e l o n g te r m t h a t w i ll b e h a p p y th e y d i d i t
b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d b e r e w a r d e d f o r i t w it h m u c h h i g h e r p o s i ti o n s a n d
y o u k n o w t h e f a m ily w o u l d h e l p t h e m . U s e t h e i r i n f l u e n c e to g e t t h e m
o u t o f w h a t e v e r p u n i tiv e a c ti o n h a s b e e n t a k e n a g a i n s t t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h is w a s i n 2 0 1 4 ?

Yo u w e r e in S o u t h A f r i c a in

2014?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: N o – 2 0 1 3 .
20

CHAIRPERSON: 2013?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e l l I – th e – Ms N o r m a n .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h o s e in v e s t i g a t in g t h e is s u e o f t h e W a t e r k lo o f

la n d i n g .

Page 57 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n
C H A I R P E R S O N : N e e d to c h e c k . I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r t h a t in t h e m e d i a
t h e r e w e r e s u g g e s ti o n s t h a t s o m e b o d y o r c e r t a i n p e o p l e w h o w e r e s a i d
t o h a v e b e e n b l a m e d f o r t h e W a t e r k lo o f l a n d i n g w e r e p r o m o t e d o r w e r e
g iv e n c e r ta i n p o s it i o n s t h a t d id n o t s e e m t o b e i n l in e w i t h d is a p p r o v i n g
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : D i s a p p r o v i n g t h e a c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir a ll e g e d r o l e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

So

it

w i ll

be

i m p o r ta n t

for

th e

commission

in v e s t i g a t o r s to h a v e a l o o k a n d s e e a l s o w h e t h e r s u c h – i f w h e t h e r
t h e r e w e r e a n y p r o m o t io n s o r r e i n s t a te m e n ts s u c h a s I t a l k e d a b o u t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e r e w h ic h M r S u n d a r a m is t a l k i n g a b o u t a n d w h e n

they happened.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r e x a m p l e w e k n o w w h ic h – w h i c h m o n t h s h e w a s i n
S o u th A f r i c a w h e n – if h is e v i d e n c e is tr u e t h a t Mr A t u l G u p t a s a i d t h is
w e n e e d to c h e c k w h e t h e r in f a c t s o m e th in g a l o n g t h o s e li n e s s e e m s to
have happened.
20

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir w e

have noted.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h a n k y o u .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you very much. Thank

Page 58 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
y o u . M r C h a ir m a n t h e o n e th in g I fo r g o t t o d o w a s t o h a n d u p – w a s t o
a s k t h a t t h e b o o k b e g iv e n a n Ex h ib i t n u m b e r ?
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

M i g h t I a s k t h a t it b e m a r k e d

E x h i b i t C C 1 [ f] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we should get a …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
10

W e w il l m a r k i t f o r t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e s h o u l d g e t m a y b e a c le a n c o p y b e c a u s e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A c le a n c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a c l e a n c o p y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : I d o h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d y o u w il l m a r k it .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w ill m a r k i t E x h i b i t
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : I w ill m a r k i t E x h i b i t C C 1 [ f] .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay that is fine.

20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you very much. Thank

y o u . M r C h a ir m a n t h e o n e a s p e c t t h a t I w o u ld lik e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o
d e a l w i t h t h e a ff id a v i t o f Mr W ill i a ms .

It – various paragraphs he

m a k e s m e n t io n l ik e p a r a g r a p h 11 o f C C 1 [ e ] .

Page 59 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r W ill i a ms .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s C C 1 [ e ]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a t p a r a g r a p h 11 if I m a y

ju s t d ir e c t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o th o s e p a r a g r a p h s .

P a r a g r a p h 11 ,

p a r a g r a p h 1 8 a n d 1 9 b u t i f y o u s t a r t w i t h p a r a g r a p h 11 . T h is i s w h a t h e
s a y s a t p a g e 7 p a g in a t e d p a g e 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o i s h is – t h i s w a s h a n d e d u p ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th i s w a s h a n d e d u p …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To d a y s o I d o n o t k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h is is M r M o e g s i e n W i ll ia m s .
H e is o n e o f t h e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . H e is o n e o f t h e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s h e d i d n o t r e s p o n d d u r in g
t h e ti m e a ll o w e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

H e s i m p ly – t h is w e r e c e i v e d

y e s t e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

W h e n t h e c o m m is s i o n h a d

s t a r t e d le a d i n g t h e e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t is it ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : W h a t – i t is a n a ff id a v i t. Th e r e
is n o n o t ic e o f m o ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 60 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

H e m a k e s i t c l e a r in th e

a ffi d a v i t Mr C h a i r m a n th a t h e d o e s n o t w is h t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e Mr
Sundaram.

He also makes it very clear in paragraphs 18 and 19 that

h e d o e s n o t w is h t o c o m e a n d t e s ti fy b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

The legal team has taken a

v ie w d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n ’s d ir e c t io n i s g o in g t o b e th a t
in t h e li g h t o f t h e f a c t th a t h e d o e s n o t w i s h t o c o m e h e d o e s n o t w is h
t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r S u n d a r a m t h e n Mr S u n d a r a m m u s t b e a ff o r d e d a n
10

o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d t o h i s a ffi d a v it i n w r i ti n g s h o u l d t h e p e r s o n –
C h a ir p e r s o n d ir e c t s o . O r t h e o t h e r a l t e r n a tiv e o f c o u r s e w o u l d b e t h a t
t h e s e m a tt e r s t h a t h e d i s p u t e s in Mr S u n d a r a m ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t M r
S u n d a r a m b e g i v e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o d e a l w i th th o s e n o w a n d i n
e v i d e n c e b u t w e a r e a ll s u b je c t to th e d ir e c t io n b y th e C h a ir p e r s o n
b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o – w e d o n o t k n o w w h a t – h e s i m p ly s a y s I a m
p l a c in g t h i s b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n b u t h e d e n ie s m o s t o f t h e e v i d e n c e
o f M r S u n d a r a m . B u t h e d o e s o f c o u r s e a d m i t o n e m e e t in g w h e r e t h e
P r e s i d e n t w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s r e s i d e n t i a l h o m e – o ff ic ia l
r e s id e n c e a n d t h a t is th e m e e t i n g o f th e 2 2 J u n e 2 0 1 3 . A n d h e s a y s it

20

m i g h t v e r y w e ll b e t h a t i t i s th a t m e e ti n g b u t w h a t h e d is p u t e s is
w h e t h e r a t t h a t m e e ti n g m a t te r s th a t r e l a te d to e d i t o r ia l p o lic y a n d
e v e r y t h i n g e ls e w e r e d is c u s s e d . S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e ll i f – i f s h e d o e s n o t w a n t to s u b j e c t h e r s e l f to
g iv i n g e v id e n c e i f th a t is w h a t s h e s a y s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Page 61 of 127

Ye s .

If I may read it –

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
p a r a g r a p h 11 M r C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : M r C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a r a g r a p h 11 ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s p a g e 7 .
“ I h a v e i n t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s a n x i o u s l y c o n s id e r e d m y
p o s i ti o n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e n o t ic e .
a p p lic a ti o n

to

cross-examine

I w i ll n o t m a k e

the

witness

but

n e v e r t h e l e s s w is h t o s u b m i t t h is a ff i d a v i t a n d r e q u e s t
10

t h e c o m m i s s i o n i ts le g a l t e a m a n d t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s
to consider what I set out herein.”
And then in paragraph 18 and 19:
“ I s u b m i t t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r S u n d a r a m is n o t
tr u e a n d h is e v i d e n c e o u g h t t o b e p r o p e r l y t e s te d
w i t h a v ie w o f d e t e r m i n i n g t h e c r e d i b ili t y a n d v e r a c i ty
o f th e a ll e g a t io n s h e m a k e s .

I t is d o u b t f u l t h a t

c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o f t h e w i t n e s s w i ll b e a l lo w e d i n
t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s a n d I w il l t h e r e f o r e n o t a p p ly to
c r o s s - e x a m in e th e w i t n e s s . ”
20

In paragraph 19.
“ I a c c o r d i n g ly d o n o t w is h to a s s e r t m y r i g h t t o c r o s s e x a m in e a n d d o n o t a p p l y t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r
Sundaram.

I h a v e c o n f i d e n c e in t h e e v id e n c e

le a d e r s

th a t t h e y

and

evidenced

to

the

w il l p r e s e n t

commissioner

Page 62 of 127

and

all relevant
that

such

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
e v i d e n c e w o u ld b e p r e s e n te d t o t h e c o m m is s i o n
f a ir ly a n d o b je c t iv e l y. ”
A n d l a s tl y p a r a g r a p h 2 0 M r C h a ir m a n .
“For the reasons set out herein under I also do not intend
t o g i v e e v id e n c e b e fo r e th e c o m m is s i o n f o r t h e f o l l o w i n g
reasons.
1. I have not done anything improper and have not
committed any crimes.
2 . I h a v e m o s t c e r t a in ly n o t c o m m i t t e d t h e o ffe n c e s o f
c o r r u p ti o n a n d fr a u d o r p a r tic i p a t e d in s u c h o ffe n c e s

10

in a n y w a y w h a ts o e v e r.
3 . I a m n o t in p o s s e s s i o n o f a n y e v i d e n c e w h ic h m a y
a s s is t t h i s c o m m i s s io n t o m a k e a n y c o n c l u s iv e
fi n d i n g s

i n s o fa r

as

the

c o m m i s s i o n ’s

te r m s

of

r e fe r e n c e a r e c o n c e r n e d . ”
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l h a v e y o u h a d a c h a n c e t o r e fl e c t o n t h e

u s e fu ln e s s o f th is a ffi d a v i t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h e – i t is u s e f u l i n t h e s e n s e
that
20

H e h a s m a d e m e n ti o n o f c e r t a in a r e a s w h i c h h e b e li e v e s th a t w e c o u l d
in v e s t i g a t e .

Fir s t o f a ll h e d e n i e s th a t t h e s e c u r i ty a t th e Pr e s i d e n t ’s

o ffic i a l r e s i d e n c e i s a s l a x a s M r S u n d a r a m h a d t e s ti f ie d .

And he

p o i n t s t h a t s e c u r i ty r e c o r d s w o u l d s h o w th a t h e i s i n f a c t c o r r e c t in t h a t
r e g a r d . A n d s e c o n d ly h e s a y s h e r e f e r s to a c e r t a i n a g e n c y th a t s a y s –
t h a t w h e r e h e s a y s t h a t t h a t a g e n c y c o u l d a s s is t th e c o m m is s i o n i n – i n

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
g e t t in g m o r e i n f o r m a ti o n . T h e n t h a t – t o t h a t e x t e n t it w o u l d a s s i s t t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s t o f o ll o w u p o n t h o s e le a d s . I t is f o r th a t r e a s o n th a t w e
b e li e v e th a t i t w il l a ls o b e p r u d e n t fo r M r S u n d a r a m t o a c t u a l ly s it d o w n
a n d d e a l w i t h h is a ff id a v i t i n w r it i n g a n d m a y b e f il e a s u p p le m e n t a r y
a ffi d a v i t d e a li n g w i t h a ll t h e m a t t e r s t h a t h e a l le g e s i n th is a ff i d a v i t .
Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t w o u l d h a v e to h a p p e n a t s o m e s t a g e b e c a u s e
Mr Sundaram is leaving today or…
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . H e i s le a v i n g
10

t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: But you
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

B u t w e w ill m o n i to r t h a t

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
ADV

THANDI

V I C TO R IA

s u b m is s io n o f t h e a ffi d a v i t .

NORMAN

SC:

We

could

monitor

the

Mr S u n d a r a m c o u l d a t t e n d t o i t s p e e d il y

a n d th e n
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n w e w i ll m a k e s u r e th a t
it g e t s s u b m i t t e d q u ic k ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d i d y o u s a y t h e r e a r e c e r ta i n a s p e c t s t h a t y o u

w o u ld p r e fe r t o …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 64 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
C H A I R P E R S O N : To g iv e h i m a c h a n c e to d e a l w it h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s d e a l w i t h t h o s e th a t y o u c a n d e a l w it h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n t h e a ffi d a v i t c a n b e m a d e a v a i l a b le t o M r

S u n d a r a m a n d h e c a n r e s p o n d t o i t b u t w h a t e v e r i t is t h a t h e c a n d e a l
w i t h n o w l e t h i m d e a l w it h i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : L e t h i m – th a n k y o u . A lr i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

What he cannot deal with because he needs more

ti m e t h e n w i ll h a v e t o b e d e a lt w i t h a t a l a t e r s t a g e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

Thank you Mr

C h a ir m a n . Mr S u n d a r a m m a y I j u s t ta k e y o u to p a r a g r a p h l e t m e j u s t
s e e t u r n t h e p a g e . – s o r r y. A t p a r a g r a p h 8 i f y o u g o to p a r a g r a p h 8 o f
M r W i ll ia m ’s – t h a t is Ex h ib i t C C 1 [e ] . D o y o u h a v e i t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . I n p a r a g r a p h 8 o h
s o r r y, s o r r y t h is is w o r k o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n it d e a ls w i t h h i m c o m p l a i n i n g
a b o u t th e n o t ic e . B u t I w o u ld li k e t o d ir e c t y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 3 0 I b e g
y o u r p a r d o n . In p a r a g r a p h 3 0 t h is i s w h a t M r W i ll ia m s s a y s :
20

“ I h e ld t h i s p o s it i o n w h ic h i s t h e p o s i t io n o f t h e
e d i to r i a l d ir e c to r i n i n d e p e n d e n t n e w s p a p e r w h i c h h e
d e a ls w i th i n p a r a g r a p h 2 9 . I h e ld t h is p o s i ti o n u n t il
S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 2 w h e n I t o o k u p th e p o s i t io n a s t h e
e d i to r o f t h e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r.

In June 2017 I

r e a c h e d r e t ir e m e n t a g e a n d I r e t ir e d a t th e a g e o f 6 5

Page 65 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
fr o m my p o s i ti o n a s t h e e d i t o r o f t h e N e w A g e
n e w s p a p e r.

I h a d in t h e in t e r i m a ls o s e r v e d a s t h e

E d it o r in C h i e f o f th e te l e v i s i o n n e w s c h a n n e l A N N 7 . ”
D o y o u k n o w t h e p e r i o d w h e n M r W i ll i a ms w a s t h e e d it o r o f A N N 7 ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: N o I d o n o t i t is a f t e r I h a d l e ft fr o m h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d h e r e h e d o e s n o t g iv e
u s t h e d a t e s a s t o w h e n h e t o o k u p t h e p o s i t io n , is th a t c o r r e c t i n t h is
paragraph?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t .
10

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n if y o u g o t o p a g e
37. He says:
“ I c o n s i d e r e d t h e a ll e g a ti o n s a g a in s t m e in a n
e x tr e m e l y

s e r io u s

light

e s p e c ia ll y

that

these

a l le g a ti o n s m a y t a r n is h o r b le m i s h my r e p u ta t io n . A
r e p u t a ti o n o f p r o f e s s i o n a l a n d p e r s o n a l i n te g r it y.

I

h a v e t a k e n a li f e ti m e t o b u il d u p a n d w h ic h I c h e r is h .
It may now be destroyed as a consequence of
a l le g a ti o n s m a d e b y a n in d i v i d u a l w h o h a s a n a x e t o
grind.”
20

W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : W e l l I h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h th e a ffi d a v i t a n d I
t h i n k i t is a b u n c h o f h a l f- tr u t h s a n d a b s o l u te l ie s a n d I w o u l d s a y t h a t I
s t a n d b y m y a ff id a v i ts a n d s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t a n d e v e r y t h i n g I
h a v e s a i d i n t h o s e t h in g s . Th e m e e ti n g s t h a t h e i s d is p u t i n g c a n v e r y
w e ll b e v e r if i e d b y t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s in t e r ms o f th e r e c o r d s t h a t h a v e

Page 66 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
b e e n m a i n ta i n e d a t Pr e s id e n t Z u m a ’s r e s id e n c e .

I have given dates,

e x a c t d a t e s o f t h o s e m e e t in g s a n d a ls o y o u k n o w t h e m e e ti n g s th a t
h a p p e n e d i n J u ly a n d A u g u s t t h e r e a r e t e n t a t iv e d a t e s . I t is S u n d a y in
J u l y s o r e c o r d s th e r e , t h e C C T V f o o ta g e – t h e r e is a w h o le l o t o f w a y s
in w h i c h t h e s e m e e ti n g s c a n b e v e r i f ie d . I s t a n d b y th e p o s i t io n t h a t I
h a v e t a k e n . A ll t h e f a c ts t h a t I h a v e g iv e n i n m y a ff id a v i t I a b s o l u te ly
s t a n d b y th e m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n i n –
at paragraph 39 he says:
10

“Based on what I have read it appears to be clear
t h a t M r S u n d a r a m h a s n o t b e e n v e r y s u c c e s s fu l in
o b t a i n in g e m p lo y m e n t a f t e r h i s b r i e f t e n u r e w i t h
A N N 7 . Th a t h e is r e li a n t u p o n t h e s a l e s o f h is b o o k
a n d t h a t h e m a y w e l l b e m o t iv a t e d b y a n i m m e n s e
d is li k e f o r t h e G u p t a fa m i ly a n d in p a r ti c u la r M r A t u l
Gupta.”
C a n w e p a u s e t h e r e a n d a s k y o u a f te r y o u l e f t A N N 7 d id y o u m a n a g e t o
g e t a n y e m p l o y m e n t i n I n d i a a n d w h e n l a s t if y o u d id w h e n d i d t h a t
h a p p e n a n d h o w l o n g d id it la s t?

20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Well ever since I went back from here I

h a v e l a u n c h e d t w o t e le v is i o n s ta t io n s i n C h e n n a i .

N e w S e v e n Ta m i l

a n d K a lv a r i N e w s a n d I h a v e n o t b e e n o u t o f e m p l o y m e n t y o u k n o w I
c h o s e to n o t w o r k w h i le I w r i ti n g t h e b o o k fo r a f e w m o n t h s a n d I
r e s ig n e d fr o m K a lv a r i N e w s w h ic h is t h e s e c o n d s t a ti o n I s e t u p ju s t
la s t y e a r i n A u g u s t .

That was because I had to prepare for my

Page 67 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
tr a n s p l a n t .

I h a v e b e e n a s k e d b y m y d o c t o r s to s t a y a w a y f r o m f u l l

ti m e w o r k f o r s i x m o n th s p o s t t h e tr a n s p l a n t a n d I h a v e h a d n o
[i n d is t in c t] o f w o r k a f t e r I q u i t t h e r e . I h a v e a ls o h a d t h e p o s it i o n o f a
c o n s u l t a n t fo r th e R a j a s t h a n P a tr i k a G r o u p a n d I h a v e w o r k e d s tr a i g h t
through and the days or months that I have not worked is because of
m e d i c a l r e a s o n s o r t h e t i m e i m m e d i a t e ly a ft e r I c a m e b a c k w h e n I w a s
w r i t in g th e b o o k .

S o t h i s lik e o t h e r e l e m e n ts i n t h is a ff id a v i t is a n

absolute lie.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

Ye s a n d t h e n j u s t r e c e n tly

m a y b e a m o n t h a g o d id y o u d o a n y w o r k – w e r e y o u w o r k i n g l a s t
m o n th ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

Ye s I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e B e n n e t t

C o l m a n a c o m p a n y w h ic h o w n s t h e Ti m e s o f I n d i a G r o u p t o b e a s e n i o r
jo u r n a li s t t o b e o n t h e p a n e l f o r t h e e l e c ti o n c o v e r a g e . S o t h e y h a v e a
c h a n n e l c a l l e d M ir a n a l a n d I w a s o n t h e p a n e l f o r t h e e le c t i o n c o v e r a g e
r ig h t fr o m a f e w w e e k s b e f o r e t h e e l e c ti o n s t il l t h e e n d o f e l e c ti o n s . I
a m s t il l o n e o f t h e p a n e l lis ts f o r M ir a n a l r ig h t n o w a n d I a m a ls o a n
e d i to r i a l c o n s u l ta n t w i th a n e w s p a p e r b a s e d i n W a s h in g to n D C c a l le d
I n d ia A m e r i c a To d a y. S o I m e a n t h a t is a p o s i ti o n th a t I h a v e a s – o n a
20

c o n s u l t a tiv e b a s i s .

S o w h a t M r M o e g s ie n W il li a m s is s a y i n g is

s o m e t h i n g w h ic h h a s n o f a c t u a l b a s is a n d it is a n a b s o lu t e li e l ik e m o s t
o f t h e o t h e r t h i n g s i n h is a ffi d a v it .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

And then he

c o n ti n u e s :
“ A l l o f t h is a g a i n s t t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f a d i s a s tr o u s

Page 68 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
la u n c h o f t h e t e l e v is i o n s t a ti o n a l a u n c h h e w a s
p r i m a r i ly r e s p o n s i b l e f o r.

A p a r t f r o m h a v in g s p e n t

o n ly t h r e e m o n th s in th e c o u n tr y h a v in g n o t b e e n
v e r y s u c c e s s f u l a s a n e d i to r o f A N N 7 h a v i n g a
tumultuous

r e l a t i o n s h ip

w i th

h is

employers

and

h a v i n g le f t t h e r e p u b lic u n d e r a c l o u d M r S u n d a r a m
a p p e a r s t o ju s t i fy h is la c k o f s u c c e s s a t A N N 7 w i t h
r e fe r e n c e t o a ll e g a t io n s w h i c h a r e s i m p ly n o t tr u e i n
a

book

he

w is h e s

to

sell

and

to

protect

a

p r o f e s s i o n a l r e p u ta t io n . ”

10

Tw o q u e s t io n s a r is i n g f r o m t h a t .

D i d y o u l e a v e t h e r e p u b li c u n d e r a

c lo u d a n d i f s o w h a t w a s t h a t – a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t c lo u d I d o n o t
know?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M : A b s o l u t e ly n o t . I h a v e e x p l a i n e d i n m y b o o k
t h a t th e d is a s t r o u s la u n c h o r a tr a i n w r e c k a s I c a ll e d i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:
Atul

G u p ta

p r o f e s s i o n a ls
20

th e
to

te a r in g
ta k e

a

W a s b e c a u s e o f th e mi c r o m a n a g e m e n t b y
hurry

in

d e c is i o n .

which
The

they

did

not

t e c h n ic ia n s

a l lo w
were

th e

under

tr e m e n d o u s p r e s s u r e a n d n o b o d y w o u ld a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y b e c a u s e
o f t h e s h e e r f e a r th a t th e y h a d o f A t u l G u p ta ’s r a g e w o u ld t e l l h i m th a t
y o u k n o w w h a t h e w a s d o i n g w a s w r o n g a n d t h a t w e w e r e h e a d in g
t o w a r d s a d i s a s t e r.

E v e n t h o s e w h o to ld h i m t h a t w e r e s e e n w i t h

s u s p i c i o n a n d t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e l a u n c h a t th e A N N 7 w a s a d is a s t e r
w a s [i n d i s t i n c t ] b e c a u s e o f Mr A t u l G u p ta a n d t h e f a c t t h a t h e w o u l d g o

Page 69 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
in t o a fi t o f r a g e i f a n y b o d y w e n t a g a in s t w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g .

He

ig n o r e d p r o f e s s io n a l a d v ic e a n d f o r u s t o w a r d s t h e e n d i t w a s c l e a r t h a t
w e w e r e a l m o s t o n a s u ic i d e m i s s i o n y o u k n o w. W e w e r e g o i n g i n to t h is
w e k n e w t h a t i t w a s s u r e fa il u r e a t t h e e n d o f i t b u t a s p r o fe s s i o n a ls w e
k n e w th a t w e h a d t o g o in t o w e c o u l d n o t a b a n d o n i t a n d w e w e n t
s tr a ig h t h e a d o n .

A n d l ik e I s a i d y e s t e r d a y th e r e a s o n w h y w e c a m e

o u t o f t h i s w i t h o u t i n th e f o r m t h a t w e d i d w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e h a r d w o r k
t h a t y o u k n o w th e S o u th A f r i c a n t e c h n ic ia n s a n d j o u r n a l is ts p u t i n t h is
p l a c e . I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n m u c h w o r s e h a d t h a t n o t b e e n t h e s i tu a ti o n .
10

T h e y w e r e t h e g l u e t h a t m a d e s u r e t h a t y o u k n o w w i th in a m a t t e r o f
w e e k s w e w e r e i n a p o s i ti o n w h e r e w e c o u l d l a u n c h o f c o u r s e i t w a s n o t
t o t h e p r o f e s s i o n a l s ta n d a r d s th a t I h a v e l a u n c h e d o t h e r c h a n n e ls b u t I
w o u ld s a y h e r e c a te g o r i c a ll y th a t t h a t w a s b e c a u s e I w a s n o t a l lo w e d to
w o r k . I w a s w o r k in g w i t h m y h a n d s t ie d b e h i n d m y b a c k a n d c o n s t a n t ly
m ic r o m a n a g e d b y t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s e s p e c ia ll y Mr A t u l G u p t a .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n h e s a y s w h e n h e
d e a ls w i th t h e m e e ti n g s a t t h e o ffi c i a l r e s i d e n c e o f t h e f o r m e r p r e s i d e n t
at paragraph 42 he says:
“ I d o n o t c o n s i d e r th e a ff id a v i ts d e p o s e d t o b y M r S u n d a r a m t o d ir e c t ly

20

i m p l ic a t e m e i n a n y a c ts o f c o r r u p ti o n o r fr a u d .

I u n d e r s ta n d th e

a l le g a ti o n s t o s i m p ly m e a n t h a t I i n t h e c o m p a n y o f o t h e r s a t t e n d e d
t h r e e m e e ti n g s a t th e o ffic i a l r e s id e n c e o f t h e fo r m e r p r e s i d e n t M r
J a c o b Z u m a in P r e t o r i a i n th a t I f u r th e r m o r e w a s p r e s e n t a t a v is i t t o
the studios of ANN7 by Mr Zuma on 19 August 2013.”
A n d t h e n h e d e s c r i b e s h o w h e m e t th e p r e s i d e n t fo r th e f ir s t t i m e b u t

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t h is is w h a t I w o u l d li k e y o u to c o m m e n t o n ? H e s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 4 6 :
“ D u r i n g m y te n u r e a s E d i t o r o f N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r I
a ls o m e t M r Z u m a o n t w o fu r t h e r o c c a s i o n s w h e n I
a c c o m p a n i e d m e m b e r s o f m y s t a ff a n d o r r e p o r t e r s o f
A N N 7 fo r o n t h e r e c o r d in t e r v i e w s w i t h t h e f o r m e r
p r e s i d e n t a n d f o r s e v e r a l o ff t h e r e c o r d b r i e fi n g s
s u b s e q u e n t ly.

I i n t e r p o s e d t o i n v i te a t te n ti o n t o

r e fl e c t th a t m e m b e r s o f th e m e d i a r e g u l a r l y m e e t w i t h
s e n i o r p o li t ic ia n s a n d d o s o fo r a v a r i e t y o f r e a s o n s .
10

Q u i t e fr e q u e n tl y p o li t ic i a n s w o u l d e n g a g e m e m b e r s
o f t h e m e d i a i n r e l a t i o n to m a t t e r s c o n c e r n i n g t h e ir
p o li t ic a l

parties

and

in

an

endeavour

to

–

of

a tt e m p t in g t o p e r s u a d e m e m b e r s o f t h e m e d i a t o b e
s y m p a t h e tic t o t h e ir p a r t y o r t h e ir p a r tic u l a r c a u s e o r
e v e n s w a y to s w a y m e m b e r s o f t h e m e d i a i n f a v o u r
o f t h e ir p o li t ic a l v i e w s . ”
Is t h is w h a t h e s a y s is i t a c o m m o n o c c u r r e n c e a s h e p u t i t?
MR RAJESH SUNDARAM:

I t h i n k w h a t h e is t a l k i n g a b o u t is a

d iv e r s i o n a r y ta c t ic . I a m t a l k i n g a p p l e s h e i s t a lk i n g o r a n g e s . Fo r a n
20

e d i to r o r a j o u r n a l is t to g o m e e t p o li t ic ia n s a n d p r e s i d e n ts t h a t is
n o t h i n g o u t o f t h e o r d in a r y b u t t h e s e m e e t in g s w h y I w o u l d s a y i s
d i ff e r e n t i s b e c a u s e h e is n o t o n ly th e e d i t o r o f th e N e w A g e h e is a
d ir e c t o r in t h e c o m p a n y t h a t is o w n e d w h ic h is n o t d i s c l o s e d i n t h is .
H e a ls o h a s n o t d is c lo s e d th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s s o n i s a s h a r e h o l d e r i n
t h e c o m p a n y t h a t h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t a n d h e is d e n y in g e n g a g in g i n

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
c o m m e r c ia l d is c u s s i o n s w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t . A n d I c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h y
h e is d o in g t h a t . B e c a u s e th e n h e w o u l d b e i m p li c a t in g h i m s e l f . S o –
a n d I th in k t h e fa c t s a r e in m y b o o k h e r e a b o u t t h e n u m b e r o f m e e t in g s
t h a t h e a t te n d e d a n d th e n u m b e r o f m e e t in g s t h a t h e d i d n o t .

I have

c le a r ly a i d t h a t h e w a s p a r t o f th e f ir s t m e e ti n g . T h e r e w a s o n e m e e ti n g
in w h ic h h e w a s v is i ti n g C a p e To w n a n d h e c o u l d n o t c o m e a n d a l s o
d e t a i ls o f t h e f o u r t h m e e t in g a r e a ls o g i v e n . S o m o s t o f t h e f a c ts t h a t
h e i s r e ly i n g o n a r e a ls o d u b i o u s in th is c a s e .

A n d to a n s w e r y o u r

q u e s t io n I w o u l d s a y w h e n e d it o r m e e ti n g a p o l i tic i a n o r th e p r e s i d e n t
10

is n o t o u t o f th e o r d in a r y w h a t i s o u t o f th e o r d i n a r y is t h a t f a c t th a t a s
a d ir e c t o r o f t h e c o m p a n y y o u g o in g w i t h t h e o w n e r s o f y o u r n e w s p a p e r
f o r b u s i n e s s d e a l i n g s t h a t I t h i n k is – b r i n g s a d ir e c t c o n fli c t o f i n t e r e s t .
I t is n o t d e f in i te ly n o t p e r ta i n i n g t o t h e h ig h e s t s ta n d a r d s o f jo u r n a l is ti c
e th ic s t h a t I k n o w o f.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 5 0 , 5 1 ,
5 2 a n d 5 4 t h e r e h e d e a ls w i th t h e fa c t th a t it is a n – w h a t y o u s a y t h a t
t h e r e w e r e m a t t e r s o f e d i to r i a l p o li c y t h a t w e r e d is c u s s e d w it h t h e
P r e s i d e n t th a t i s n o t c o r r e c t .

B u t I a m j u s t s u m m a r is i n g it i n s te a d o f

ju s t r e a d i n g e v e r y t h i n g i n to t h e r e c o r d .
20

He says that that is not what

h a p p e n e d . T h e y w e r e g o in g t h e r e a s a n y o th e r m e d i a w o u ld g o a n d g e t
t h e e a r o f th e P r e s i d e n t a s h e s u g g e s ts in t h e p r e v i o u s p a r a g r a p h t h a t I
r e a d t o y o u . W h a t d o y o u s a y to t h a t ?
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: I w o u ld s a y t h a t h e is ly i n g i n h i s a ffi d a v i t .
T h a t I s ta n d b y w h a t I h a v e s a id . W h a t w a s d is c u s s e d w a s m a t t e r s o f
e d i to r i a l p o li c y a b o u t t h e d e s i g n o f th e s t u d io s , a b o u t c o m m e r c i a ls i n

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t e r m s o f t h e e x p e n s e h e a d s a n d t h i n g s l ik e th a t . I s t a n d b y w h a t e v e r I
h a v e s a id in m y a ffi d a v i t a n d I c o n tr a d ic t w h a t h e is s a y in g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

M a y b e j u s t to c o n f ir m

w h a t h e h a d a lr e a d y c o n v e y e d t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n w i t h o u t r e a d i n g fr o m
the paragraph – paragraph 66. Where he says:
“ A l t h o u g h I d o n o t r e c a l l th e s p e c i fic d a te o n w h ic h
I

a t te n d e d

the

m e e ti n g

it

may

very

well

be

2 2 J u n e 2 0 1 3 t h e d a t e r e fe r r e d t o b y M r S u n d a r a m .
I t i s n o s m a ll s i g n i fi c a n c e t h a t h e is u n a b l e t o
10

r e c o l l e c t t h e d a t e i n J u ly o r A u g u s t w h e n t h e
s e c o n d a n d t h ir d m e e t in g s a r e a ll e g e d t o h a v e
taken place.

A s I a m c o n fi d e n t th e r e c o r d s a t t h e

s e c u r i ty c h e c k p o in t s w it h in t h is o ffic i a l e s t a t e o f
G o v e r n m e n t r e s id e n c e w il l n o t s u p p o r t t h e p r e s e n c e
o f a n y o f th e i n d iv id u a ls c la i m e d to h a v e b e e n a t
the residence of the President during July and
a u g u s t 2 0 1 3 . R e g a r d l e s s o f th e d a t e s t h o u g h I a m
c o n fi d e n t

that

the

d e l e g a t io n

o n ly

v i s i te d

the

P r e s i d e n t ’s r e s id e n c e o n o n e o c c a s io n . ”
20

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

W e ll I w o u l d w a n t to p u t t h i s t o h i m – y o u

k n o w – t h e f a c t t h a t h e d o e s n o t w a n t to c r o s s - e x a m in e m e o r t h e f a c t
t h a t h e d o e s n o t w a n t t o s u b j e c t h i m s e l f t o c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n s p e a k s
v o l u m e s . W h a t I w o u l d s a y is t h a t w h a t I h a v e s a id is fa c tu a l ly c o r r e c t .
W e w e r e w h e e l e d in t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s r e s id e n c e . T h e r e a r e r e c o r d s o f
t h e G u p t a fl e e t c a r s i n w h i c h w e w e n t a n d a r e c o r d o f t h a t w a s s e n t

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t h r o u g h A s l a n t o Mr A s h u C h a w l a a n d t h e r e w o u l d b e r e c o r d s o f th a t
there. I am sure there are CCTV cameras at the porch where you could
s e e w h e r e t h e e n tr ie s t o o k p l a c e . B y t h e s p e c i f ic d a t e s I h a v e n o t p u t
in h e r e b e c a u s e I w o u ld n o t k n o w f o r s u r e b u t I k n o w t h a t i t w a s a
S u n d a y in J u ly 2 0 1 3 a n d I w o u l d s a y t h a t if – i f t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s w e r e
t o g o a n d l o o k a t th e C C T V f o o ta g e - t o l o o k a t t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e
s e c u r i ty i n t e r m s o f t h e c a r s t h a t e n te r t h e r e .

Th e y w o u l d k n o w t h a t

w h a t I a m s a y i n g is t h e tr u th . A s f a r a s A u g u s t is c o n c e r n e d a s i m il a r
t h i n g I w o u l d r e q u e s t t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s t o g o t h r o u g h a n d I w o u ld
10

c h a l le n g e M r M o e g s ie n W i ll i a ms – y o u k n o w – i f t h e r e is – y o u k n o w
t h a t w h a t h e is s a y in g i s a n a b s o l u t e li e a n d i f I h a v e t o s ta y a n e x t r a
d a y I w o u ld d o t h a t if h e w a n t s t o c r o s s - e x a m in e m e .

I a m w i ll in g to

f a c e h i m a n d I a m s u r e w h e n th e i n v e s ti g a to r s g e t t h e ir e v i d e n c e t h e y
w o u ld k n o w t h a t w h a t I a m s a y in g i s t h e a b s o l u t e t r u t h .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: A b o u t t h e s e m e e ti n g s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h o s e
a r e t h e m a tt e r s t h a t I w i s h t o r a is e w i th M r S u n d a r a m .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W i t h r e g a r d t o th e k e e p i n g o f r e c o r d s a t t h e

P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffi c i a l r e s i d e n c e y o u d i d t e s ti fy t h a t y o u n o ti c e d t h a t i t
a p p e a r e d - w h e n y o u w e n t t o th e Pr e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic ia l r e s i d e n c e t h a t
s e c u r i ty w a s q u i te l a x a n d y o u s a id y o u d i d n o t k n o w w h e th e r th a t is
h o w i t n o r m a lly w a s o r w h e th e r i t w a s s i m p ly b e c a u s e y o u w e r e p a r t o f
t h e – t h i s w a s a d e l e g a t io n fr o m th e G u p t a f a m il y.

Do you have any

r e c o l l e c ti o n w h e t h e r a n y b o d y w a s r e c o r d i n g t h a t th e d e le g a ti o n – th a t

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
p e o p l e w e r e c o m i n g in a n d o u t ? L e a v in g o u t a n y s e c u r it y c a m e r a s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

I k n o w fo r a f a c t t h a t b e f o r e t h e e v e n t fo r

t h e s e m e e t in g s t h e v e h ic l e n u m b e r s a n d t h e s e v e h ic le s w e r e fr o m t h e
G u p t a fl e e t o f c a r s a n d I a m s u r e th e r e a r e r e c o r d s o f t h a t .

We only

w e n t i n t h e S U V s fr o m t h e G u p t a fl e e t a n d th e y w e r e – t h e n u m b e r s –
t h e r e g i s t r a t io n n u m b e r s o f t h e s e v e h i c l e s w e r e g iv e n in a d v a n c e t o
M r A s h u C h a w la w h o w o u l d th e n g iv e i t to t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffi c e a n d a s
s o o n a s w e w e r e a b o u t t o e n t e r t h e g a t e t h e y w o u ld s e e th e n u m b e r s
a n d th e y w o u l d ju s t w a v e u s s tr a i g h t th r o u g h in . In t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g
10

w h e n M r A s h u C h a w l a w a s d r i v i n g t h e y s a w h is f a c e a n d th e y j u s t
w a v e d u s in . I w a s a l w a y s c a r r y i n g m y p a s s p o r t b e c a u s e y o u k n o w i n
c a s e t h e r e is r e q u ir e m e n t f o r a n I D to b e g iv e n a t t h e r e s i d e n c e b u t I
h a v e n o r e c o l le c ti o n o f m y ID e v e r b e e n c h e c k e d . I a m n o t s u r e b u t I
a m q u i t e c e r t a i n th e r e w o u l d b e C C T V c a m e r a s t h e r e w h i c h – w h ic h c a n
c le a r – y o u k n o w – w e c a n g o b a c k a n d c h e c k r e c o r d s o f a n d i f t h e
v e h ic l e n u m b e r s w e r e g iv e n a m s u r e t h e r e w il l b e a r e c o r d o f t h a t a s
w e ll - y o u k n o w – b e c a u s e t h e r e w o u l d b e a s e c u r i ty e n tr y t h a t i s m a d e
somewhere.
m e e ti n g s

20

did

S o I a m a b s o l u t e ly c o n f id e n t t h a t – y o u k n o w – t h e s e
take

p la c e .

I

a tt e n d e d

those

meetings

and

the

d is c u s s io n s w e r e o n t h e t o p i c s th a t I h a v e s a i d i n t h e a ffi d a v i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t h a s h a p p e n e d t o a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t b y

h i m r e l a t i n g t o t h e q u o ta t io n s in h i s s ta t e m e n t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

M r C h a ir p e r s o n

from

t h is

m o r n in g I g o t a s e n s e th a t C h a ir p e r s o n w o u l d l ik e h i m t o d e a l w i th a ll

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t h e q u o t a ti o n s i n t h e b o o k o r j u s t th e q u o t a ti o n s i n t h e s ta t e m e n t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w e l l o n e , c e r t a in ly i n t h e s t a te m e n t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n s o f a r a s t h e r e i s e v id e n c e i n t h e b o o k t h e r e is –
t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e b o o k o r p a r ts o f t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e b o o k …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t h e is – h e h a s c o n fi r me d h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

To t h e e x te n t t h a t a n y p a r ts t h e r e o f a r e p u t i n

quotations he must just – he must tell us …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e th e r th o s e w e r e q u o t a t i o n s a s w e a ll u n d e r s t a n d
them to say …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h o s e w e r e w o r d fo r w o r d . Th a t is w h a t t h e p e r s o n

said word for word …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h e t h e r i t w a s s o m e t h i n g e ls e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

So – so only insofar as it relates to what he has

c o n fir m e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s ,

thank

you.

M r C h a ir p e r s o n c o u l d h e t h e n b e a ll o w e d t i m e m a y b e b y n e x t w e e k th a t
is w e o b ta in t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y o r w o u l d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n p r e f e r to h a v e
it s o o n e r ?

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h a t i s – th a t is f in e .

It can be – it can be

d e li v e r e d i n d u e c o u r s e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. I …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s h o p in g t h a t i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e o v e r n ig h t
b u t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t d id n o t in v o lv e th e b o o k . I t m i g h t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e r e q u ir e d m o r e ti m e .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th a t – t h a t is f in e .

Yo u c a n m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts

for …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : F o r h i m t o d e a l w it h th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

H i s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t t o b e d e l iv e r e d i n d u e

course.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a t is h is e v id e n c e , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r S u n d a r a m t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h o n c e a g a in f o r

h a v i n g c o m e t o t h e C o m m is s i o n t o g i v e e v id e n c e . W e a p p r e c i a te i t . I
w i ll o b v i o u s l y a t s o m e s t a g e w e i g h u p a n d a s s e s s a ll t h e e v id e n c e , y o u r

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
e v i d e n c e a n d t h e e v id e n c e o f o t h e r w i t n e s s e s a n d m a k e w h a t e v e r
fi n d i n g s I b e li e v e s h o u l d b e m a d e b u t I t h a n k y o u f o r th e fa c t th a t y o u
t o o k t h e tr o u b l e a n d a g r e e d t o c o m e a ll t h e w a y to tr y a n d a s s is t t h e
C o m m i s s i o n a s m u c h a s y o u c o u ld . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir m a n f o r g iv i n g

m e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to s a y s o m e t h in g th a t I h a v e b e e n w a i ti n g f o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: S ix y e a r s t o s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o p r o b l e m .
10

M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I r e a l ly a p p r e c ia t e i t .
CHAIRPERSON: No thank you very much and you are excused.
M R R A J E S H S U N D A R A M: T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Thank

you

very

much

M r C h a ir m a n . T h a n k y o u M r S u n d a r a m . M r C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u l d l ik e t o
c a l l th e n e x t w i t n e s s M r J o s i a s J o h a n n e s S c o t t .
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : M a y b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fiv e m i n u t e s …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , j u s t t o ti d y u p , y e s . T h a n k
20

you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l t a k e fiv e m i n u t e s a d j o u r n m e n t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o a l lo w t h e c h a n g e .

Page 78 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
H E A R IN G A D J O U R N S
H E A R IN G R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s N o r m a .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Thank

you

Mr C h a ir m a n .

M r C h a ir m a n w e h a v e p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u E X H I B I T C C 2 w h i c h is t h e
s t a te m e n t o f M r J o s ia s J o h a n n e s S c o t t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

This exhibit would be exhibit cc2.

T h a t is t h e f il e

c o n ta in i n g t h e s t a t e m e n t b y M r J o s i a s J o h a n n e s S c o t t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r J o h a n n e s – ja , M r J o s i a s J o h a n n e s S c o tt .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Sc o t t ,

yes

thank

you

M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : M r C h a i r m a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s c h e c k in g w h e t h e r i t is S c o t o r S c o t t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O r S c o t t th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Thank

you

Mr C h a ir m a n .

M r Sc o t t is t h e p e r s o n w h o w e m e n ti o n e d w h e n M r S u n d a r a m w a s
g iv i n g e v i d e n c e a s th e s e n i o r s a le s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e o f t h e S A B C a n d h i s
e v i d e n c e d e a ls w it h t h e s a le o f th e a r c h iv a l c o n t e n t o f th e S A B C . M a y
h e b e s w o r n i n M r C h a ir m a n ? T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , th a n k y o u .

P l e a s e a d m in is t e r t h e o a th o r

Page 79 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
a ffir m a t i o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : J o s i a s J o h a n n e s S c o tt .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Ye s .
10

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n ly s w e a r th a t a l l t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e
w i ll b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th i f s o p l e a s e
r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Help me God.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: (duly sworn, states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

Mr S c o t t

before you – you have a bundle. It is marked EXHIBIT CC2. If you turn
20

t o p a g e 1 o f t h a t b u n d le y o u w i ll s e e t h a t i t i s a s w o r n a ff i d a v i t . I s t h a t
y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d if y o u tu r n to p a g e 1 4
– I b e g y o u r p a r d o n – to p a g e 11 o f t h a t.
a p p e a r s a t p a g e 11 ?

Page 80 of 127

Is that your signature that

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : M y s ig n a t u r e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d …
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Sworn under oath.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Sworn under oath and you did

t h a t o n t h e – o n w h ic h d a t e – 5 O c t o b e r – w a s i t 1 0 M a y 2 0 1 9 ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : O n 1 0 M a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : 2 0 1 9 ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
10

A n d – a n d a r e t h e c o n te n ts o f

t h is a ffi d a v i t tr u e a n d c o r r e c t?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Pardon?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A r e th e c o n te n ts o f th e a ffi d a v it
tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: 100 percent correct …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: And true.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

C a n y o u j u s t te ll t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n th a t y o u w e r e o n c e e m p l o y e d b y t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n
B r o a d c a s ti n g C o r p o r a t io n – t h e S A B C ? C o u l d y o u te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
20

w h e n a n d – w h e n d i d y o u jo in t h e S A B C ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: I joined the SABC in 1995 and I was
c a l l e d i n t o th e o ff ic e o f t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r H u m a n R e s o u r c e s o n
1 3 A p r il l a s t y e a r b e i n g o n c o n tr a c t fo r 2 5 y e a r s – n e a r ly – a n d h e s a i d
t o m e s ir s o r r y w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o r e n e w y o u r c o n tr a c t . Yo u a r e t o o
W h i t e a n d y o u a r e to o o l d .

Page 81 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : S o I l e f t t h e e n d o f A p r il la s t y e a r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t . C a n y o u t a k e i t s te p b y
step, alright?

W h e n y o u f ir s t j o in e d t h e S A B C i n w h a t c a p a c i ty w e r e

you employed?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I j o in e d th e m a s s a l e s p e r s o n i n th e

C o n t e n t E n t e r p r is e s D e p a r t m e n t u n t il 2 0 0 9 .

I j o i n e d th e m i n 1 9 9 5

d u r i n g t h e R u g b y W o r l d C u p a n d M r S n o o k i S e g a l la i n 2 0 0 9 f e l t t h a t
news
10

archive

footage

m o n e y /i n c o m e f o r n e w s .

s h o u ld

fall

under

news

and

generate

S o c o n t e n t e n t e r p r is e s t h e n g o t s p li t .

They

w e r e o n ly a l lo w e d t o s e ll p r o g r a m m i n g a n d a n e w d e p a r t m e n t c a l le d
N e w s A g e n c y w a s fo r m e d t o s e ll a l l n e w s c o n t e n t f o o t a g e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: And I joined them in 2009 where they
s t a r t e d o ff .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t w a s t h e

a c t u a l p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u h e ld in t h a t d e p a r t m e n t?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: What was the …?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th e p o s i to n th a t y o u h e l d ?
20

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : W a s s e n io r s a le s r e p r e s e n ta t iv e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d h o w m a n y w e r e y o u i n
that department?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I n c l u d i n g a n in t e r n fo u r, e x c lu d in g

t h e in t e r n t h r e e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 82 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Myself,

a

lady

who

was

th e

a d m i n is tr a t o r a n d a n o t h e r g e n t w h o a l s o s o l d n e w s i t e m s to t h e p u b lic .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o w h a t w a s t h e r o l e o f a
s e n i o r s a l e s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

W e ll b a s ic a l ly to h e l p b r o a d c a s t e r s

a n d p r o d u c t io n h o u s e s t o g e t t h e c o r r e c t f o o t a g e w h e n t h e y m a d e
p r o g r a m s f o r th e S A B C o r a n y o t h e r c o m p a n y a n d to m a k e s u r e th a t
t h e y r e c e iv e t h e c o r r e c t fo o t a g e a n d a ls o t o a v o id a l l c o p y r i g h t is s u e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Yo u – th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s o f
10

t h e C o m m is s i o n a s y o u k n o w h a d a p p r o a c h e d y o u a n d y o u h a d d e p o s e
t o th is a ff i d a v i t t o d e a l w i t h c e r t a in a s p e c ts o r a p a r t ic u l a r s a l e o f t h e
archival content. Am I right?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: When I got approached by …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: ANN7?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

A t t h a t s t a g e i t w a s I n fi n i ty M e d i a .

N o , Mr N a z e e m H o w a c a m e t o s e e m e – a r e a l g e n t l e m a n . H e s a t d o w n
a n d w e d is c u s s e d h o w a r c h iv e s w o r k a n d I e x p l a i n e d t o h i m a , w e d o
20

n o t tr a n s f e r a n y m a te r i a l o n b e h a l f o f o u ts id e c l ie n ts b e c a u s e i f th e y
a r e n o t h a p p y w e h a v e w a s t e d o u r t i m e a n d o u r t a p e s a n d e v e r y th in g .
Yo u w i ll h a v e t o m a k e s o m e b o d y a v a il a b l e f r o m y o u r o ff ic e s t o c o m e
a n d s e l e c t w h a t y o u w a n t a n d h e w a s t a lk i n g in g e n e r a l – y o u k n o w.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

What one would need to start a

Page 83 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t e l e v i s i o n s ta t io n . I s a id …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t , b e fo r e …
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

N a z e e m I a m p r e p a r e d to h e l p y o u

p e o p l e – y o u k n o w. W h a t i s h is t o r i c a l? T h e S A B C s ta r t e d o ff i n 1 9 7 9 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Pr i o r t o t h a t A fr i c a n M ir r o r f o o ta g e –
s o th e r e i s n o th i n g h i s t o r ic a l a b o u t S A B C f o o t a g e w h a ts o e v e r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A l r ig h t .

Just a minute please

M r Sc o t t.
10

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Ye s h e m i g h t t u r n a r o u n d a n d s a y t o
m e b u t w h a t a b o u t t h e r e le a s e o f N e l s o n M a n d e l a .

T h a t is n o t

h is t o r ic a l .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

T h a t h a s g o t to b e d e a lt w i t h th e

S A B C a l o n e . I t h e lp s t o – w e ll – a s a m a t te r o f f a c t R e u t e r s , I TN h a s
g o t f a r b e t te r f o o ta g e o f th e r e l e a s e o f N e l s o n M a n d e l a th a n t h e S A B C .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Mr S c o tt ju s t …
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : S o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
20

Ye s .

J u s t a m in u t e p l e a s e .

I

a m s o r r y M r C h a i r p e r s o n Mr S c o t t h a s i n d ic a te d th a t h e i s h a r d o f
h e a r in g . S o w e m i g h t j u s t h a v e a s li g h t p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , y e s t h a n k y o u .

Just how

d i d M r H o w a g e t to k n o w a b o u t y o u o r h o w d id t h a t m e e t i n g b e tw e e n
the two of you happen?

Page 84 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: I got a call from the secretary of the
A c ti n g C E O a t th a t s t a g e M r H la u d i M o t s o e n e n g a n d s h e s a i d t o m e
S i a s H l a u d i w o u l d li k e t o s e e y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I s a id w h e n .

She said to me

tomorrow morning 9 o’ clock. So the next morning 9 o’ clock I went up
t o h is o ff ic e . H e w a s n o t t h e r e . H e g o t s t u c k i n tr a ffic i n S a n d t o n a n d
w e ll e v e r y b o d y k n o w s m e a , I d o n o t w o r k A fr ic a ti m e .

If an

a p p o i n t m e n t i s fo r 9 o ’ c l o c k i t is 9 o ’ c l o c k n o t fi v e p a s t n i n e . I t u r n e d
10

a r o u n d a n d I s a i d to h e r d o m e a f a v o u r I a m n o t g o i n g t o w a s t e t h e
SABCs time and my time.

I a m g o in g b a c k t o t h e o ff ic e .

When he

a r r iv e s p h o n e m e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I w a s b a s i c a ll y o n m y w a y d o w n to

m y o ff ic e w h e n h e p h o n e d m e a n d h e a p o l o g is e d a n d h e s a i d t o m e
s o r r y I a m l a t e b u t I a m i n t h e o ffic e n o w. S o I w e n t b a c k t o h i s o ffi c e
and he wanted to know how the sale of archive material works.

So I

e x p l a i n e d t o h i m y o u h a v e g o t d o r e s e a r c h – y o u k n o w. Yo u h a v e g o t t o
tr a n s fe r i t fr o m o r i g i n a l to c o p y.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

S o r r y. S o r r y M r S c o t t. L e t u s

t a k e th a t p r o c e s s s l o w ly b e c a u s e y o u d e a l w i t h th a t p r o c e s s in
p a r a g r a p h 7 o n w a r d s o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

J u s t d e s c r i b e i t s l o w ly t o t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n . H o w d o e s th a t p r o c e s s w o r k ?

Page 85 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
b e g in n i n g .

O k a y.

Let

me

start

from

the

I s ta r t i n t h e p r o c e s s . A , I w a n t a n e m a i l fr o m t h e c l ie n t

r e q u e s t in g m a t e r ia l . T h e c li e n t m u s t t e l l m e e x a c t ly w h a t t h e m a t e r i a l
w i ll b e u s e d fo r. T h e n I w i ll q u o t e t h e c li e n t a n d if t h e c l i e n t a c c e p ts
t h e q u o t a t i o n t h e n o n l y w il l I g o fu r t h e r b y d o i n g r e s e a r c h o n w h a t t h e
c li e n t w a n ts a n d t h e n a r r a n g e f o r t h e c li e n t to c o m e i n a n d s e l e c t th e
m a t e r i a l.

O u r c o n v e r s a ti o n l a s t e d a b o u t 1 0 m i n u te s m a x i m u m a n d h e

s a i d t o m e Si a s e x p e c t a c a ll fr o m s o m e o n e w h o n e e d s fo o ta g e a n d th a t
is th e la s t h e a r d I h a v e h e a r d fr o m M r M o ts o e n e n g a b o u t t h e d e a l w i t h
10

ANN7 and I cannot recall if it was the same afternoon or the next day
that Mr Howa phoned me, asked to see m e, made an appointment. He
c a m e in a b o u t t h e n e x t d a y I w o u l d s a y.

W e s a t i n my o ffi c e a n d w e

d is c u s s e d th e w h o le p r o c e s s a n d I t h e n e m a il e d h i m a q u o t a ti o n w h ic h
h e a c c e p te d a n d I w o u ld s a y a b o u t t h r e e d a y s la t e r a g e n tl e m a n b y t h e
n a m e o f R a h u l w a s s e n t to m e t o s t a r t s e l e c ti n g t h e m a te r i a l a n d in th e
m e a n w h il e I – th e f o u r t h p e r s o n w h o w a s a n i n te r n . I m a n a g e d t o g e t
a p p o i n t e d p e r m a n e n t . M o lo k o v e r y, v e r y b r i g h t g e n tl e m a n . H e d id h is
M a s t e r s i n b e t w e e n d o i n g in h is i n t e r n s h i p . I d o n o t k n o w h e m a n a g e d
to do it but he did.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : I s t h a t M r M o l o k o M a s e r u m u l e ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : M a s e r u m u le .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Ja.

H e t h e n s ta r t e d to w o r k

p e r m a n e n tly i n t h e n e w s a g e n c y d e p a r t m e n t a n d I e x p la in e d to h i m
w h a t N a z e e m w a n t e d a n d I s a i d t o M o l o k o a s p e r a l l o u r c li e n t s y o u

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
h a v e g o t to s i t w it h w h o e v e r c o m e s i n .

I w il l h e l p y o u w i t h r e s e a r c h .

D r a w t h e ta p e s – m a k e s u r e t h a t if t h e a p p o in t m e n t is 9 o ’ c l o c k 9 o ’
c lo c k h e s ta r t s .

T h e t a p e s m u s t b e r e a d y a n d R a h u l fr o m A N N 7 k e p t

h is t i m e o n t h e s p o t .

A l w a y s a r r iv e d o n ti m e li k e M o l o k o a n d t h e y

started to work.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
s li g h t ly.

Ye s .

Let us just go back

Yo u h a v e n o t t o l d t h e - t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t i s it th a t

M r H o w a s a i d to y o u h e w a n te d .

Yo u h a v e n o t d e s c r i b e d e x a c t ly th e

c o n te n t t h a t h e a c tu a lly w a n t e d .
10

MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Mr Howa said to me Sias can you

h e l p u s w i t h m a t e r i a l t o s ta r t o ff a n e w c h a n n e l in S o u t h A fr ic a a n d I
i m m e d i a t e ly s a i d t o h i m N a z e e m a t t h a t s t a g e t h e l a t e N e ls o n M a n d e l a
w a s v e r y s i c k . I s a id t o h i m a , y o u c a n n o t g o o n a i r w i t h o u t m a t e r i a l o f
M r N e l s o n M a n d e la a n d h e a g r e e d . I a ls o s a i d to h i m y o u c a n n o t s t a r t
a c h a n n e l i f y o u d o n o t h a v e g o o d v i s u a ls o f a ll th e m a j o r c i ti e s o f
S o u th A fr ic a – P r e t o r ia , B l o e m f o n t e i n , C a p e To w n , D u r b a n a n d y o u
n a m e i t a n d h e a g r e e d a n d M a r ik a n a w a s q u i t e i n th e p r e s s a t th a t
s t a g e a n d I s a id t o h i m M a r i k a n a f o o ta g e w e h a v e g o t a n d h e s a i d t o
m e ja S i a s a n y r i o t s – a n y p r o t e s ts y o u n a m e i t .
20

T h a t w a s b a s ic a l ly

what we discussed.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

So he wanted a wide range of

m a t e r i a l?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : A w i d e r a n g e o f f o o ta g e . N o t o n ly –
a s a m a t te r o f f a c t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p le a s u r e i f h e a s k e d m e 2 0 0 0
m i n u t e s o f N e ls o n M a n d e l a o n ly b e c a u s e w e h a v e g o t o v e r 2 0 0 0

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
m i n u t e s o f N e l s o n M a n d e la .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : S t a r ti n g w i t h t a p e s 4 5 7 5 w h i c h is t h e
r e l e a s e o f N e l s o n M a n d e la . 4 5 8 9 h i s s p e e c h – G r a n d P a r a d e S p e e c h –
g o i n g o v e r o n to 4 5 9 0 a n d t h e n t h e n e x t o n e w o u l d b e M a d i b a a r r iv i n g
in S o w e t o – n o t m u c h o f t h a t .

O n ly th e O r l a n d S t a d iu m S p e e c h .

Ja,

n e x t w e e k h e s p o k e a t K i n g s m e a d i n D u r b a n – t h r o w y o u r w e a p o n s in
the sea.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o th e n a ft e r h e th e n t o l d
10

y o u e x a c t ly w h a t h e w a n t e d t h e n y o u h a d a n i d e a o f …
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: I had a good idea …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O f w h a t h e w a n t e d ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Of what to research for and you name
it a n d I a l s o s a i d to h i m N a z e e m d o m e a f a v o u r. Yo u p e o p l e d is c u s s i t
b e t w e e n y o u . Te l l R a h u l o r w h o e v e r c o m e s i n t o b r i n g m e a l is t o f w h a t
y o u t h in k y o u w a n t a n d w h il s t h e is h e r e w o r k in g o n t h e o t h e r s t u ff I w il l
d o t h e r e s e a r c h a n d m a k e s u r e t h e ta p e s a r e th e r e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

20

I n e v e r r e c e iv e d a l is t fr o m t h e m .

T h e y d e p e n d e d o n m e c o m p l e te ly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o th e n – s o t h i s h a p p e n s
b e f o r e t h e r e is n e g o ti a ti o n s a b o u t h o w m u c h th e y a r e g o i n g t o p a y, h o w
m u c h is i t g o i n g t o c o s t th e m b e c a u s e y o u h a v e n o i d e a o f t h e c o n t e n t
t h a t th e y w a n t e d ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : A d v o c a t e le t u s p u t i t t h is w a y t h e r e

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
w a s n o d i ff e r e n c e i n p r ic e b e tw e e n w h a t ty p e o f c o n te n t a p r o d u c ti o n
h o u s e o r a b r o a d c a s t e r w a n te d .
same.

T h e p r i c e w o u l d h a v e r e m a in e d t h e

It is u s e d f o r b r o a d c a s t p u r p o s e s .

S o w h e t h e r t h e y w a n te d

M a r ik a n a o r M a d ib a f o o t a g e o r W i n n ie f o o t a g e o r – i t d o e s n o t m a t te r.
T h e p r ic e w o u l d h a v e r e m a i n e d t h e s a m e p e r m in u t e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C a n y o u g o t o p a g e 1 7 o f
t h a t - o f y o u r s t a te m e n t ? I t w i ll b e u n d e r a d iv id e r m a r k e d 3 .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : A n d i t is 3 ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Ye s a d v o c a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d p a g e 1 7 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

P a g e 1 7 Mr C h a ir m a n .

Ye s ,

u n d e r it e m – t h e d iv i d e r m a r k e d n u m b e r 3 . I t i s A n n e x u r e J J S 3 . I t i s
c a l l e d – w h a t i s th a t – w h a t is t h a t M r S c o tt ? H a v e y o u f o u n d i t? A r e
you there?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : S o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Have you found it?

Have you

f o u n d t h e d o c u m e n t?
20

MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Number 3, yes.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t is i t ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I t is a p r ic e g u i d e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : I t is a p r ic e g u id e . Is t h a t t h e
p r i c e g u i d e o f th e S A B C ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is a p r i c e g u i d e fo r - fo r t h e s a l e

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
o f s to c k fo o ta g e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

C o u l d y o u j u s t h ig h li g h t

w h a t th e p r ic e is t h a t i s r e le v a n t fo r t h e tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g
a b o u t?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Yo u r H o n o u r a b l e I w a n t to s t a r t o ff b y
p o i n t i n g o u t th e s e a r e p r i c e g u id e s a n d n o t a s e t p r i c e li s t. 1 A – R 1 0 0
p e r m i n u te o f f o o t a g e tr a n s f e r r e d a n d ta k e n a w a y. T h a t is a s t a n d a r d
p r i c e w h ic h w e a s k . If y o u w a lk i n a n d y o u w a n t t o b u y 1 0 m i n u t e s y o u
w o u ld h a v e p a i d R 1 0 0 0 p l u s VAT.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a lr ig h t . O k a y, l e t u s lo o k
a t t h e n e x t o n e . W h a t i s t h a t f o r - th a t R 5 0 0 p e r h o u r ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

O k a y. I t w a s a g r e e d fr o m B t o D t o

w a iv e i t a n d i t w a s a ls o a g r e e d b e t w e e n J i m m y M a t t h e w s a n d m y s e l f to
d e v i a te fr o m R 1 0 0 p e r m i n u te t o R 7 0 p e r m i n u t e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s , w e a r e n o t t h e r e y e t .
W e a r e g e t t in g t o t h a t b u t I j u s t w a n t y o u to e x p l a i n t o th e – t o th e
C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u h a v e t o l d u s t h e R 1 0 0 p e r m in u t e i f y o u tr a n s f e r a n d
y o u t a k e a w a y w h a t is th e R 5 0 0 p e r h o u r ? W h a t is th a t f o r ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
20

O k a y.

T h e R 5 0 0 p e r h o u r Yo u r

H o n o u r a b le i s b a s i c a ll y if a c li e n t c o m e s i n a n d w e h a d t h a t a lo t o f
ti m e s th a t s o m e b o d y w o u l d c o m e in , s i t i n fr o n t o f a m o n i to r, w a s t e t w o ,
t h r e e , fo u r h o u r s i n t h e e d i t s u it e a n d d o n o t p a y.

S o th e R 5 0 0 p e r

h o u r p a r t t h e r e o f w a s t o u s e t h e e d i t s u it e o f t h e S A B C .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: That was a technical charge to use a

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
– b e c a u s e y o u h a v e g o t t o r e m e m b e r th e r e a r e t w o m a c h i n e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

There is a machine that copies and

t h e n th e r e i s a m a c h in e w h e r e y o u p u t y o u r m a s t e r t a p e s in .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: So you needed two machines and the
R500 was to copy from tape – master tape to copy tape.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : To c o p y ta p e ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Hm.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t a n d t h e n i f – i f I c o m e t o
t h e S A B C a n d I a m t h e o n e w h o w a n ts m a te r i a l a n d I w o u ld c o m e a n d
s i t d o w n w i t h y o u o r Mr M a s e r u m u l e . S o f o r th e ti m e t h a t I h a v e c o m e
in t h e r e a n d I a m s i tt i n g a n d I a m c o p y i n g th e m a t e r i a l f r o m t h e m a s t e r
t a p e o n to th e c o p y t a p e .

S o y o u w o u l d c h a r g e f o r t h a t ti m e .

Th a t is

w h a t th e R 5 0 0 is f o r ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a lr ig h t . T h e n l e t u s m o v e
o n t o t h e R 1 5 0 p e r 1 0 it e m s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
20

C li e n ts w o u l d s e n d i n a l is t o f 3 0 0

it e m s w h ic h t h e y t h i n k t h e y m ig h t n e e d .

Yo u k n o w t o d o r e s e a r c h o n

3 0 0 i te m s t a k e s a l i t tl e b i t o f ti m e . S o w e h a v e t r i e d t o r e s tr ic t t h e m t o
b e s p e c i fic b y c h a r g i n g t h e m R 1 5 0 p e r 1 0 i t e ms o r p a r t t h e r e o f .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a lr i g h t . S o t h is is a l l s tu ff
t h a t w o u ld g o o n to t h e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : J a t h a t i s a l l t e c h n i c a l c o s ts .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A ll t e c h n ic a l c o s t s a n d t h e n y o u
have got them in one – in D.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: D.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

O k a y.

I n th e c a s e o f A N N 7 t h e y

b r o u g h t i n t h e ir o w n c o p y t a p e s b u t i f a c li e n t w a n ts t h e m a t e r i a l o n a
D V C P R O F o r m a t t h e n w e j u s t R 1 5 0 a n d w e p r o v id e t h e c o p y o r t h e
S A B C p r o v i d e s th e c o p y.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : A l r ig h t a n d t h e n w e d e a l in E ,
10

F, G w i t h c o p y r i g h t . C o u l d y o u e x p la i n t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t th e s e
c o p y r ig h ts a r e f o r ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

J a , E r e p r o d u c ti o n c o m p a n y o r

a n y b o d y f o r t h a t s a k e , m a k e s a p r o g r a m a n d i t ’s b e i n g b r o a d c a s t o n t h e
S A B C o n l y, th e n w e c h a r g e l e s s f o r c o p y r ig h t , w e c h a r g e R 7 5 0 p e r 3 0
seconds.

I f a c l ie n t w a lk s i n , a ( i n d i s t i n c t) w a l k s in , s a y s I s a w th is

b e a u ti f u l c h u r c h s e r v ic e a b o u t t e n y e a r s a g o o n T V, I w o u ld li k e t o
s h o w i t t o m y c o n g r e g a t io n , c a n I h a v e a c o p y p l e a s e .

I w o u ld th e n

e x p l a i n t o h i m i t ’s a ll y o u r v is u a l p r e s e n t a t io n , i n o t h e r w o r d s y o u s h o w
it t o m o r e t h a n o n e p e r s o n a n d y o u ’ r e g o i n g to h a v e t o p a y R 5 0 0 f o r 3 0
20

seconds copyright.
O k a y t h e n w e g e t t o t h e m o n e y s id e o f i t, c o p y r ig h t , o p p o s i t io n
b r o a d c a s t e r s , N C A , D S T V, ( I n d is ti n c t) Ve r a , A N N 7 a s w e l l , w e w o u l d
c h a r g e R 2 0 0 0 p e r 3 0 s e c o n d s c o p y r i g h t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : S o th e s e a r e y o u r c o m p e ti t o r s ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

T h a t is o u r c o m p e ti t o r s .

Page 92 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
ADV

TH A N D I

V I C TO R I A

NORMAN

SC:

Ye s ,

a lr ig h t

and

then

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

A n d C a r t e B l a n c h e t h e y o n ly r e a s o n

w h y th e y p a i d m o r e , R 2 7 5 0 , i s b e c a u s e th e y s tr e a m a l l th e ir, t h e C a r t e
B l a n c h e p r o g r a m s , I c h a r g e t h e m R 7 5 0 p e r 3 0 s e c o n d s to p u t i t o n
Yo u Tu b e o r w h e r e v e r t h e y l ik e t o .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d y o u ’v e g o t d i ff e r e n t

pricing for overseas broadcasters?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
10

Pardon?

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Yo u h a v e , s o r r y, y o u h a v e

d i ff e r e n t p r i c i n g f o r o v e r s e a s b r o a d c a s t e r s ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

J a , o v e r s e a s b r o a d c a s te r s w e q u o t e

it i n to U S D o l la r o r E u r o o r P o u n d d e p e n d i n g o n y o u k n o w w h e r e th e
broadcasters are from.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d – b u t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s
o f y o u r t e s ti m o n y t h e s e a r e n o t r e l e v a n t, a m I r ig h t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Sorry?

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

For the purposes of your

e v i d e n c e t h e o v e r s e a s p r ic e s a r e n o t r e le v a n t ?
20

MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

N o d e f i n i t e ly n o t.

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a n d t h e n i f y o u tu r n o v e r
t h e p a g e a t p a g e 1 8 y o u h a v e a d v e r t is i n g u s e w a s t h a t r e l e v a n t to
ANN7?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

N o N a z e e m e x p l a i n e d t o m e th a t

t h e y ’r e g o in g t o u s e i t in S o u t h A f r ic a o n l y a n d t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n t o

Page 93 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
doubt him.

As f a r a s I k n o w, n o b o d y h a s t o l d m e o r s h o w e d m e

o th e r w i s e , a s fa r a s I k n o w t h e y o n ly u s e d o u r f o o ta g e i n S o u t h A f r i c a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o n ’ t y o u n e e d fr o m t h is w i tn e s s o n ly w h a t w a s –

what were the terms of the arrangement between SABC and ANN7, if he
knows them, what was the norm, what were the normal terms.

Wa s

t h e r e a d e v i a t i o n fr o m t h o s e t e r m s , h o w m u c h d e v ia t i o n w a s th e r e , w h a t
w a s t h e j u s ti f ic a ti o n f o r th e d e v i a ti o n , if a n y.
10

D o w e n e e d a n y th i n g

m o r e th a n th a t?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : N o M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t’s g e t t h a t .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A lr ig h t t h a n k y o u e s p e c ia lly

b e c a u s e h e ’s s t r u g g l in g to h e a r … ( in t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ’r e g o in g to o m u c h r o u n d a b o u t le t ’s g e t t o i t .

A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u .

Now then Mr

H o w a c o m e s t o y o u a n d t h e n y o u s a id y o u g a v e h i m a q u o t a ti o n , w h a t
w a s t h e q u o ta t io n th a t y o u g a v e h i m ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
20

W it h ?

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Yo u g a v e h i m a q u o ta t io n .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

J a I g a v e a q u o t a t i o n o n ly a f t e r I

h a d a c h a t to o u r C E , C h i e f E x e c u t iv e o f n e w s J i m m y M a t th e w s a n d I
s a i d to h i m , J i m m y – I w a s e x c i t e d b e c a u s e A ) , w e ’ v e n e v e r s o l d 2 0 0 0
m i n u t e s o f f o o t a g e t o o n e c l ie n t a n d I k n e w i t w a s g o i n g t o b e a b ig
d e a l a n d w e c h a t t e d a n d c h a t t e d a n d c h a t te d a n d w e d e c i d e d o k a y n o

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
fi n e , in s t e a d o f c h a r g i n g R 1 0 0 p e r m i n u t e w e ’r e g o i n g t o c h a r g e R 7 0
p e r m in u t e .

I w e n t b a c k a n d I e m a i le d h i m , N a z e e m H o w a , I s a i d t o

h i m , t h i s is t h e b e s t I c a n d o , a n d h e c a m e b a c k a n d s a i d , a c c e p t e d .
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t a b o u t th e

R 5 0 0 fo r … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

N o th a t w e w a iv e d , w e d e c i d e d n o t

t o c h a r g e i t b e c a u s e if I h a d t o a d d t h a t , I w o u ld h a v e c h a s e d th e m
a w a y c o m p l e te ly.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
10

A lr ig h t c a n y o u ju s t t a l k tr y

a n d … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t w a s w r o n g w i t h t h a t , w a s n ’t y o u r – w a s n ’ t

your job to charge…(intervention).
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry?

W a s n ’ t y o u r j o b to c h a r g e a c c o r d i n g t o t h e p r i c e

g u i d e , w a s y o u r jo b n o t t o c h a r g e a c c o r d i n g t o th e p r i c e g u i d e
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I t w a s Yo u r H o n o u r a b l e b u t if I d o

g e t th e p e r m is s i o n fr o m w h o e v e r is i n c h a r g e o f o v e r a ll n e w s a n d
J i m m y s a i d , l e t ’s w a iv e i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t r e a s o n d i d M r M a t t h e w s a d v a n c e fo r s a y in g
20

t h a t R 5 0 0 p e r h o u r s h o u l d b e w a iv e d ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry I’ve got a hearing problem.

O k a y I’ m s o r r y, I w a s t o l d y o u d o h a v e a h e a r in g

p r o b le m , l e t m e t r y a n d r a is e m y v o ic e . C a n y o u h e a r m e n o w ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

A l it t le b i t b e t t e r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e l e t m e b r i n g t h e m ic c l o s e r, t h is m ic c a n

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
s t il l n o t c o m e c lo s e r, y o u m u s t m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts l e t ’s s e e i f I p u l l it .
What was the reason that Mr Matthews gave as to why you should
w a iv e th e R 5 0 0 p e r h o u r ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Yo u r H o n o u r a b l e th e r e w a s n o

r e a s o n g iv e n w h a ts o e v e r. W e c h a t te d a b o u t th e s iz e o f t h e d e a l a n d h e
– I c a n r e c a l l h i m e v e n s a y i n g i t’s g o i n g t o b e a b ig j o b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s a b i g j o b fr o m t h e s i d e o f S A B C … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

W e l l t h e b ig j o b b e c a m e m y b i g jo b

b u t i t w a s p a r t o f m y w o r k th a t I h a d t o d o in a n y e v e n t , n o , n o r e a s o n s
10

w a s g iv e n , q u it e fr a n k ly, y o u k n o w, I t h i n k a n y b o d y i n t h a t p o s i ti o n
w o u ld h a v e d o n e it .
CHAIRPERSON: Would have?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Would have done what Jimmy did.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h y d o y o u s a y t h a t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

At that stage, what goes through

o n e ’s m in d , y o u ’v e g o t 1 4 0 0 0 0 r a n d i m m e d i a te ly i f y o u fi n i s h th e 2 0 0 0
minutes

at

R70

per

minute,

why

worry

about

an

a d d i ti o n a l

R 3 0 0 0 0 / R 4 0 0 0 0 , g e t th e R 1 4 0 0 0 0 i n a s a p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s t h e r e a r e q u e s t fr o m t h e c li e n t f o r t h e
20

R 5 0 0 .0 0 to b e w a i v e d ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I f I’v e g o t c o p i e s o f a l l t h e p a c k i n g

s li p s I c a n w o r k o u t th a t w e d i d n o t l o s e a l l th a t m u c h m o n e y. R a u l d i d
n o t c a m e i n a n y d a y s o n o t a ll th o s e m a n y h o u r s w e r e s p e n t i n t h e e d i t
f e e d s , w h a t w e d i d w a s , M a l o k o w o u ld p a r k t h e t a p e s w h e r e h e w o u ld
s t a r t a n d s e l e c t fr o m s o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h e q u e s ti o n w a s , w a s t h e r e a r e q u e s t fr o t h e
c li e n t f o r th e R 5 0 0 .0 0 to b e w a i v e d ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

N o n o t a t a ll .

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n I

beg our pardon, I thought you were saying something else. Now if we
t a k e - fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e d e s c r i b e d e a r l ie r, b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n ’ t g iv e
y o u a l is t o f w h a t t h e y w a n t e d , s o i t w o u l d m e a n t h a t w h e n M r R a u l
c o m e s a n d m e e t s w i t h M r M a l o k o – Mr ( i n d is ti n c t ) t h e y w o u ld h a v e to
10

s i t d o w n a n d s i f t t h r o u g h th e c o n t e n t t h a t t h e y w a n te d .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Vi e w a n d tr a n s f e r.

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

Vi e w a n d tr a n s fe r, s o t h a t

w o u ld h a v e t a k e n h o u r s , a m I r i g h t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
m o r e th a n 4 0 h o u r s i n t o t a l .

T h a t ’s – c o u l d n ’ t h a v e t a k e n t h e m

A d v o c a t e y o u ’v e g o t to r e m e m b e r t h e y

o n ly t o o k a w a y 3 3 h o u r s in t o t a l , 3 3 ,0 3 h o u r i n t o t a l , t h a t ’s w h a t t h e y
t o o k a w a y, 1 9 8 2 m i n u t e s , t h a t w o u l d g iv e y o u 3 3 . 0 3 h o u r s .

Yo u

tr a n s fe r – a m i n u t e tr a n s fe r t o a m i n u t e , s o i t w o u ld h a v e t a k e n t h e m –
t h e t a p e m i g h t s t o p e j e c t a t a p e p u t a n e w t a p e in t h a t w o u l d w a s t e a
20

li t tl e b i t o f ti m e , 3 3 h o u r s w o u l d n ’ t h a v e t a k e n t h e m m o r e t h a n 4 0 /4 5
hours maximum.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s b u t t h e 3 3 h o u r s m u l t ip li e d
b y 5 0 0 w o u l d h a v e s t il l b e e n – h a v e b e e n a g o o d r e v e n u e f o r t h e S A B C .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

33 Hours that would have been

R16 500.

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s d o y o u r e g a r d t h a t a s

in s i g n i fic a n t?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Pardon?

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Do you regard that amount as

in s i g n i fic a n t?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Well instead of losing a deal, you

k n o w I r e g a r d th a t a m o u n t a s m in o r r e a ll y.
CHAIRPERSON: But who said you were going to lose a deal?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
10

W h e n M r H o w a c a m e to s e e m e h e

w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t , t h e r e ’s n o t m u c h m o n e y y o u k n o w a n d d i ffic u lt ti m e s
a n d a l l t h a t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e n e v e r a s k e d fo r a d is c o u n t.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Pardon?

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e n e v e r a s k e d f o r a d is c o u n t , h e n e v e r a s k e d f o r
y o u t o w a iv e a n y t h i n g is n ’t i t?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

N o y o u ’r e q u it e r i g h t w e ju s t g a v e

it .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja without being asked.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
20

W it h o u t b e in g a s k e d .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

W h e r e is t h e – d i d y o u th e n c o n c l u d e a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h h i m o t h e r t h a n
t h e q u o t a t i o n t h a t y o u s p o k e a b o u t, w a s t h e r e a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s
concluded between the SABC and ANN7?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I c a n n o t r e c a ll a h u n d r e d p e r c e n t i f

t h e r e w a s a l e g a l b i n d in g c o n tr a c t o r i f w e o n ly w o r k e d o n t h e e m a ils a s

Page 98 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
an agreement.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A lr ig h t , le t ’s j u s t ta lk a b o u t

that, who would have referred – because I understand you have a legal
d e p a r t m e n t a m I r i g h t , w h o w o u ld h a v e r e fe r r e d t h e s e t e r m s t h a t y o u
a g r e e d o n w i t h M r H o w a to t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t f o r th e m t o d r a f t a n
a g r e e m e n t , w h o ’s r e s p o n s ib il it y w a s i t?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I t w a s q u i te a b ig d e p a r t m e n t a n d i f

y o u r e q u e s t a c o n tr a c t , i t w o u l d b e r e fe r r e d t o o n e o f t h e le g a l p e o p l e
t h a t ’s n o t a ll t h a t b u s y, q u i te a c o u p l e o f p e o p l e c o u l d d r a w u p t h e
10

c o n tr a c t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s b u t w h o m u s t t a k e th e fir s t
s t e p , t h a t , p l e a s e d r a w u p th e c o n t r a c t .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

M y d e p a r t m e n t h a d t o ta k e t h e fir s t

step.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s d id y o u r d e p a r t m e n t d o

that?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h e th e r w e d i d o r

not.
A D V TH A N D I V I C TO R I A N O R M A N S C :
20

O k a y b u t a s y o u a r e s i t t in g

t h e r e n o w h a v e y o u b e e n a b l e t o l o c a t e , fr o m t h e ti m e y o u s o ld t o A N N 7
ti ll t o d a y, a lt h o u g h y o u ’r e o u t o f e m p l o y m e n t n o w, h a v e y o u e v e r b e e n
a b l e to l o c a t e a c o n tr a c t u p o n w h ic h y o u s a i d , lo o k t h is is w h a t – th o s e
a r e th e t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d t h i s is h o w th i n g s a r e g o i n g t o b e
done.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Si n c e th is th i n g s t a r t e d a d v o c a t e I

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
h a v e n o t a p p r o a c h e d t h e S A B C f o r a n y t h i n g , th e g o o d w o r k w a s d o n e
b y D r A n t h o n y a n d a l l th is c o p i e s o f s t u ff w h ic h y o u s e e h e r e w a s d o n e
b y y o u r i n v e s ti g a to r, I d id n o t a p p r o a c h th e S A B C f o r a n y th i n g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Before you left – but did you

e v e r h a v e s ig h t o f a n a g r e e m e n t … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Q u i t e f r a n k ly b e f o r e I l e ft , y o u

k n o w, S t a t e C a p t u r e – b e i n g c a ll e d t o t h e S t a t e C a p tu r e , th a t w a s th e
la s t t h in g o n m y m i n d . I s a w a s m a l l a r ti c le i n t h e n e w s p a p e r s a b o u t
t h e b o o k a n d I t h i n k i t w a s t h e B e e l d n e w s p a p e r s t a ti n g th a t t h e y ’ v e g o t
10

footage for a hamburger and Maloko and M aloko came back, ha, ha, ha,
h a , y o u k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k w e m u s t t a k e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s I t h in k s o , t h a n k y o u M r

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n w e c o m e b a c k w e n e e d t o tr y a n d w r a p u p .

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s w e ’ ll d o t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ’ l l ta k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l c o m e

b a c k a t 2 o ’c lo c k w e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
20

INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir.

Mr Scott

c o u l d y o u tu r n t o p a g e 6 p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t - p a r a g r a p h
1-5?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Number 6?

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , p a g e 6 …
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: 1-5?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : P a r a g r a p h 1 - 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is p a r a g r a p h 1 - 5 o n w h a t p a g e ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : P a g e 6 Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O f h is s t a t e m e n t ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

O f - o f h i s s t a te m e n t y e s .

In

t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u s a y th a t :
“ To y o u r r e c o ll e c t io n th is w a s t h e f ir s t t i m e th a t a
d is c o u n t h a d e v e r b e e n o ffe r e d . ”

10

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

No, please answer a yes or a

no.
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , th a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u

a ls o s a y t h a t :
“ T h e d is c u s s i o n s b e t w e e n y o u r s e lf a n d M r H o w a
w e r e h a p p e n i n g v i a e m a il . ”
20

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A n d i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h e r e i s n o
a g r e e m e n t – w r i t te n a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u a r e a w a r e o f t h a t w a s
concluded with him?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Correct.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u . N o w i f y o u g o

Page 101 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
to paragraph 17 - same page – what do you say in paragraph 17? Can
y o u j u s t r e a d th a t i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: What do I say about paragraph?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : 1 7 , y e s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

It is 1 0 0 p e r c e n t c o r r e c t i t to o k

a p p r o x i m a te ly a m o n t h to d o a ll t h e w o r k .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: It is 100 percent correct as stated in
paragraph 17.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : S o i t i s c o r r e c t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : S o it t o o k o v e r a m o n th a n d y o u
d i d n o t c h a r g e fo r t h e m u s in g th e b o o th d u r in g th a t p e r i o d ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I t t o o k q u i te a w h il e t o s e a r c h a n d

get the correct footage, yes.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y t h e tr a n s f e r t o a r c h iv e f o o t a g e is i t a tr a n s fe r
t o a r c h iv e f o o t a g e o r is i t a tr a n s fe r o f t h e a r c h iv e t o s o m e th i n g e ls e ?
D i d I s p e a k s o f tly ?
20

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

In p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u t a lk

a b o u t th e t r a n s f e r t o a r c h i v e f o o t a g e .

I am asking whether it was a

tr a n s fe r o f th e a r c h iv e fo o t a g e t o s o m e t h in g .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : To a c o p y t a p e Yo u r H o n o u r a b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s it a tr a n s f e r o f t h e a r c h iv e f o o ta g e n o t t o ?

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A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : N o t to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir p e r s o n
a n d i n th e f o l lo w i n g p a r a g r a p h y o u d e a l w i t h t h e p a c k i n g s l ip s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is c o r r e c t a d v o c a t e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

S o r r y, w h e n y o u r e s p o n d y o u

m u s t a lw a y s s a y – r e s p o n d t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r
10

he heard that.
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

In

t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u – if y o u c o u l d j u s t r e a d a f t e r th e p a c k a g e s li p
JJS081.

Yo u s a y th e r e y o u a c tu a l ly c h a r g e t h e m f o r 1 9 8 2 m i n u t e s o f

f o o t a g e b u t y o u c h a r g e f o r th e e n t ir e p r i c e fo r t h e 2 0 0 0 m in u t e s .

Is

that what you did?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

C o u l d y o u j u s t q u ic k ly

t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h e m i n u te s t h a t a r e r e f le c t e d o n t h e t a b l e t h a t y o u s e e
20

there?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

On 17 July they took 44 minutes

a w a y. 1 8 J u ly 3 4 m i n u t e s a n d …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

S o r r y.

I t h in k t h e m in u t e s a r e

u n d e r d u r a ti o n .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h e m in u te s a r e ?

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : U n d e r d u r a ti o n .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : J a t h a t i s t h e d u r a t i o n ja .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , y e s y o u m u s t r e a d fr o m

t h a t fo r t h e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n y o u s e e t h e c o l u m n th a t is w r it t e n d e s c r i p ti o n o f
goods? Can you see that column?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : C a n I j u s t g o t h r o u g h t h e p a c k i n g s li p
q u ic k ly C h a ir p e r s o n ? I f y o u d o n o t m i n d . I j u s t w a n t to c h e c k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

If you go under eight - the

d iv i d e r m a r k e d e ig h t . T h a t is w h e r e t h e p a c k i n g s l ip s a r e .

Have you

f o u n d i t Mr S c o t t ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I a m w h a t?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : J u s t lo o k a t t h e d iv id e r m a r k e d
eight.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: JJS5.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I j u s t w a n t t o c h e c k th a t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t , o k a y.
20

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : 2 4 0 m i n u te s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : J a , u n d e r d u r a t io n y o u w il l s e e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : W h a t t h e y h a v e t a k e n a w a y. 1 7 J u l y
2 4 0 m i n u t e s a n d i t g o e s r i g h t t h r o u g h ti ll 2 2 A u g u s t – th e la s t t i m e t h e y

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
w e r e t h e r e – 4 0 m i n u t e s . T h a t is t h e d u r a t io n w h ic h t h e y to o k a w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is s e e m s t o 2 2 A u g u s t n o t t h e 2 7 t h .

I s th a t

r ig h t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: 22 August.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h e 2 2 n d . I t h o u g h t y o u s a id t h e 2 7 t h . I a m s o r r y
b u t c a n y o u s e e th e c o l u m n t h a t i s i m m e d i a t e ly b e f o r e t h e c o l u m n
written duration?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Description of goods.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t o n e t h e fir s t i t e m t h e r e is 4 4 D V C P R O . T h a t is
t h e d e s c r ip t io n o f g o o d s . Ar e y o u a b l e to e n li g h te n m e m o r e a s t o …
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I a m tr y i n g t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t th a t i s ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

S o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I a m tr y i n g

m y s e l f . I t is a li t tl e b i t c o n f u s i n g a t t h i s s t a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : A n d I w a n t t o s e e e x a c t ly w h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: That was.
20

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : W h e r e t h e y g o t i t fr o m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : M a y I ju s t h e l p y o u ? If y o u t u r n
t o p a g e 2 2 – 2 2 o n t h e r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r. Th a t is t h e – I th i n k t h a t is
w h a t y o u a r e lo o k i n g f o r. Th a t w i ll s h o w y o u th e 2 4 0 m i n u t e s a n d t h a t

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
w i ll g iv e y o u t h e d a te o f 1 7 J u l y 2 0 1 3 .

T h a t is t h e p a c k in g s l ip t h a t

g o e s w i t h th a t i t e m .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Where?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : P a g e 2 2 .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Page 22?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i f I u n d e r s t a n d h i m c o r r e c tly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e is l o o k i n g fo r s o m e t h i n g t h a t w i ll t e ll h i m w h a t t h a t
10

4 4 D V C P R O is …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I m a y b e m is t a k e n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s .

That

is

r e fl e c t e d

M r C h a ir p e r s o n o n th e p a c k i n g s l ip . H e is lo o k in g fo r a p a c k i n g s li p .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : C o u l d w e a s s is t – c o u ld … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o m e b o d y c a n a s s is t h i m .
20

MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: I do not have a page 22.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t , o k a y.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Page

7,

oh

th a t

one.

Yo u r

H o n o u r a b le fr o m t h e …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

P a c k i n g s l ip o n e w i ll s e e t h a t I

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
s ig n e d o u t f o u r D V C P R O ta p e s to t h e m …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : W h i c h t h e y b r o u g h t i n o r i g i n a l ly a n d I
s ig n e d t h e m b e c a u s e th e y fi n i s h e d t h e f o u r D V C P R O ta p e s a n d t h e
t o t a l d u r a ti o n c a m e t o 2 4 0 m in u te s …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

W h ic h t h e y tr a n s f e r r e d w i th t h a t d a y

o r o v e r a t w o / t h r e e d a y p e r io d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h a t I w a n t t o tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d is w h a t 4 4

DVCPRO …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : W h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ?
CHAIRPERSON: What does that refer to? What goods were those?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Yo u r H o n o u r a b l e I h a v e g o t n o c lu e .

I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e t h is d e s c r i p ti o n c o m e s fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t fr o m y o u r o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h a t w o u ld it b e –

w h a t ty p e o f g o o d s – b e c a u s e it s a y s d e s c r i p ti o n o f g o o d s . W h a t ty p e
20

of goods?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

C h a ir p e r s o n

there

is

no

such

d e s c r ip t io n fo r f o o ta g e w h a t s o e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: 44 DVCPRO, 34 DVCPRO no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t it is i n y o u r a ff id a v i t . Yo u s i g n e d t h e a ff i d a v i t –

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d y o u j u s t c o n fir m e d - w h e n y o u s ta r t e d y o u r
e v i d e n c e y o u c o n f ir m e d t h a t t h e c o n te n ts o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a r e c o r r e c t .
S o h o w c o u l d y o u b e t h e o n e s a y i n g th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t 4 4
D V C P R O r e f e r s to ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

C o u l d th a t b e t h e s iz e o f t h e

tape?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : S o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

C o u ld it b e t h e s i z e o f t h e

tape?
10

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : D e fi n it e l y n o t. T h e s iz e o f th e t a p e s
v a r y fr o m 3 3 , 6 6 a n d 1 2 6 .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

A lr ig h t , b u t w h e n y o u

s ig n e d it w h a t w e r e y o u s i g n i n g b e c a u s e a t p a g e 2 2 – y o u r e m e m b e r 2 2
where you were before?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: When I?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : P a g e 2 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e w h e r e y o u r e fe r r e d t o a s li p a b o u t fi v e

minutes ago …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A t p a g e 2 2 . Yo u c o n fir m e d t h a t y o u s ig n e d t h a t s li p .
Is t h a t r ig h t? P a g e 2 2 …
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Page 22 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I s i g n e d o u t f o r a c tu a l D V C P R O

tapes …

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

A n d t h e to t a l d u r a t i o n o f t h o s e f o u r

t a p e s c a m e t o 2 4 0 m i n u te s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w r o te 2 4 0 m i n u t e s ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is m y h a n d w r i ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r h a n d w r i t in g ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: But they …
10

MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

B u t M o l o k o c h e c k e d t h e d u r a t io n o f

each and every tape.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Then …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o s e h a n d w r i ti n g o r w h o w r o te 4 4 D V C P R O s o n t h a t
s li p ? W h o s e h a n d w r i ti n g … ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is n o t 4 4 C h a i r p e r s o n . It is f o u r
ti m e s D V C P R O . I d i d .
CHAIRPERSON: What is it? Just read it.
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I t is f o u r ti m e s D V C P R O .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo u r ti m e s D V C p r o g r a m s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: DVCPROs.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P R O s , j a w h a t i s t h a t?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is t h e n a m e o f a t a p e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h o s e a r e ta p e s ?

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t i s n o t 4 4 . I t i s f o u r ti m e s ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I t is f o u r ti m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e n w h e n y o u g o t o p a g e 7 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t u n d e r
d e s c r ip t io n o f g o o d s w h e r e it s a y s 4 4 D V C P R O . S h o u l d i t b e r e a d in g
four times?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:
10

T h i s l o o k s lik e a ty p i n g e r r o r.

It

should be …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , it s h o u l d b e f o u r t i m e s ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : J a , fo u r ti m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If it s a y s fo u r ti m e s th e n it w o u ld m a k e s e n s e to y o u ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : J a , d e f in it e l y n o d o u b t a b o u t i t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n i t w o u ld b e t h e t a p e s ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : J a a n d I a m c o r r e c t in g m i n e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o s h a ll it r e fl e c t t h e

s a m e in a l l? I t w il l b e t h r e e ti m e s g o i n g d o w n ?
20

MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A l r ig h t , o k a y. S o y o u m a d e a n
e r r o r th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll it b e t h r e e t i m e s …
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

F o u r t i m e s , t h r e e ti m e s , th r e e t i m e s , e ig h t t i m e s ,

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
s e v e n t i m e s , t h r e e ti m e s , f o u r t i m e s , t w o t i m e s ? Is t h a t w h a t i t w il l b e
– what it should be on that column?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

F o u r, s e v e n , 1 0 , 2 5 , 2 8 , 3 0 , 3 8 .

It

a d d s u p t o th e a m o u n t o f D V C P R O t a p e s w h ic h t h e y b r o u g h t i n …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: 38 in total.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t le t u s ta k e i t s t e p b y s t e p . Yo u s a w w h e r e it
s a y s 4 4 – 4 4 . Yo u s a i d i t s h o u ld b e f o u r t i m e s
10

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I t is f o u r ti m e s D V C P R O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n o w th a t i t s a y s 3 4 . S o th a t is …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : 3 4 .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : 3 4 s h o u l d b e th r e e ti m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h r e e ti m e s ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f o l lo w in g o n e ? 3 0 s h o u ld b e w h a t , t h r e e ti m e s ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Three.
CHAIRPERSON: And 84 underneath?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : S h o u l d b e e ig h t .

20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: 74?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Should be seven.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld b e s e v e n . 3 4 s h o u l d b e t h r e e .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Should be three.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 4 4 s h o u ld b e f o u r.

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : S h o u l d b e f o u r.
CHAIRPERSON: And 24 should be two.
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Tw o a n d 4 8 s h o u l d b e fo u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i n th e n e x t
p a r a g r a p h s th e n y o u g iv e in y o u r s ta t e m e n t th e t o ta ls o f th e a m o u n t s
t h a t w e r e p a i d b y A N N 7 a t t h e r a te o f t h e m h a v in g b e e n c h a r g e d f o r th e
10

2 0 0 0 m i n u te s a t R 7 0 p e r m in u t e a n d y o u g iv e t h o s e t o t a ls i n p a r a g r a p h
– p a r a g r a p h s 2 1 a n d 2 2 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : A n d w e r e th o s e a m o u n ts p a i d to
t h e S A B C ? A s th e i n v o i c e s w e r e th e y p a i d ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : A ll in v o i c e s w e r e p a i d .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Al l o f t h e m w e r e p a id ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : A ll o f t h e m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n l e t u s
ju s t d e a l w i t h t h e o n e a s p e c t th e n o n – h o w t h e n w e r e y o u d e a li n g w i t h

20

t h e m i n o r d e r fo r y o u t o s e e w h a t c o n t e n t t h e y h a v e u s e d ? H o w w e r e
y o u g e t t in g d e c la r a ti o n s fr o m t h e m ? C a n y o u ju s t te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
t h a t p r o c e s s t h a t y o u f o l l o w e d q u i c k ly ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I w o u l d e m a il th e m a n d a s k f o r a

d e c l a r a ti o n . L i k e I d i d w i th a ll c li e n t s a n d fo r t u n a t e ly y o u k n o w i t c o s t
t o o m u c h t o h a v e a m i c r o c h i p i n s t a l le d i n e a c h a n d e v e r y ta p e w h ic h

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
y o u s e l l t o th e p u b li c o r to p r o d u c ti o n h o u s e s .

S o y o u r e l y o n t h e ir

h o n e s ty.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

S o h o w i t d o e s w o r k w i th a

m ic r o c h ip . S u p p o s in g t h a t y o u c a n a ffo r d – i f y o u w e r e t o a ffo r d i t h o w
w o u ld it w o r k ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : A m ic r o c h i p g e ts p la n t e d o n t o a t a p e
a n d w h o e v e r u s e s th a t t a p e w il l r e g i s te r o n t o y o u r c o m p u t e r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

S o is t h a t w a n t is c a ll e d b u r n t

in c o d e o r i s i t s o m e th i n g d i ff e r e n t ?
10

M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : N o , i t is s o m e t h i n g d i ffe r e n t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

O k a y.

Are you aware of the

burnt in code system?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

The

burnt

in

time

code,

yes

d e f in i te ly.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . O k a y w h a t is - h o w d o e s
that one work?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I f y o u h a v e g o t a b u r n t in ti m e c o d e

o n y o u r t a p e y o u c a n n o t u s e i t fo r a n y t h i n g b e c a u s e i t is t i m e c o d e th a t
r u n s a t t h e b o t t o m o f th e ta p e c o n t in u o u s ly …
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

And you cannot use it for any

p r o g r a m m i n g w h a ts o e v e r.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

But

w ill

you

s u p p o s i n g t h a t y o u g i v e m e w it h t h e b u r n t i n ti m e c o d e .

be

able

–

D o e s th a t

m e a n t h a t if I s a i d I w a n t e d i t f o r fi v e s e c o n d s I c a n o n ly u s e i t f o r fi v e

Page 113 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
seconds and not more?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : N o , w a it . Yo u c a n o n ly u s e i t f o r fi v e
seconds and no more?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

If you have put in that

burnt in code.
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Yo u p u t i n a b u r n t c o d e y o u c a n p u t it
in f o r t w o h o u r s , t h r e e h o u r s . Yo u c a n p u t it in f o r a s l o n g a s y o u li k e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : B u t y o u c a n n o t u s e th a t f o o t a g e t o d o
10

a n y p r o d u c ti o n . T h e f o o ta g e c o m p l e t e ly b e c o m e s u s e l e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t r e n d e r s i t u s e l e s s ? I s th a t w h a t y o u c a l l b a n k
in c o d e o r w h a t y o u … ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : It is b u r n t in ti m e c o d e a s i n i n
burnt.
CHAIRPERSON: Burnt in time code?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

B u r n t i n ti m e c o d e , ja .

It is a code

t h a t r u n s a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e t a p e o r y o u c a n p u t i t r i g h t in t h e c e n tr e
o f t h e ta p e o r o n t o p o f th e t a p e .
20

If you do not want anybody to use

y o u r m a te r i a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

A n d t h e n fo r m o n it o r in g y o u

s a i d y o u s i m p ly r e l ie d o n t h e m o n th e ir h o n e s ty. Th a t is a ll . T h a t w a s

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
t h e o n ly m o n i t o r in g m e c h a n is m y o u p u t in p l a c e ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Yo u h a d t o r e ly o n t h e ir h o n e s ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o m e c h a n is m .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

T h e r e is n o m e c h a n i s m o t h e r

t h a n s a y i n g i f I c o m e t o y o u a n d I b u y fr o m y o u y o u r c o n t e n t y o u w il l
e x p e c t m e to b e h o n e s t w i t h y o u a n d t h e n I w i ll p a y fo r w h a t I d e c l a r e
to you.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
10

A n d t h a t w a s t h e o n l y s y s te m

that was there?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is – w e r e t h e r e o t h e r o c c a s i o n s b e f o r e th is o n e w h e r e
y o u s o l d a r c h iv e f o o t a g e t o s o m e b o d y o r a c o m p a n y w h i c h w o u ld u s e i t
a n d y o u w o u l d – t h e y w o u l d h a v e t o p a y y o u f o r u s in g i t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

C h a ir p e r s o n I a m n o t a w a r e o f

a n y b o d y w h o h a s u s e d a n y f o o ta g e w i t h o u t d e c l a r in g .

I a m g o in g t o

m e n ti o n C a r t e Bl a n c h e n o w. C a r t e B l a n c h e e v e n w e n t a s fa r t o d e c l a r e
o n a S u n d a y b e fo r e t h e y w e n t o u t o n a i r t h e S u n d a y e v e n in g .
20

Th e

p e o p l e I h a v e w o r k e d w i t h p r o d u c ti o n h o u s e s , b r o a d c a s t e r t e n d t o b e
v e r y, v e r y h o n e s t .

I have never had any problems in footage

d e c l a r a ti o n s n e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w h a t m e c h a n is m w a s i n p l a c e to m a k e s u r e t h a t
if t h e y w e r e d is h o n e s t y o u w o u l d h a v e fo u n d o u t ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : W h a t m e c h a n is m i n p la c e ?

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t m e c h a n is m w a s i n p l a c e t o m a k e s u r e th a t i f

t h e y w e r e d is h o n e s t y o u w o u l d k n o w ? Yo u w o u l d fi n d o u t?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

N o t h in g r e a l ly e x c e p t f o r m e w h o

w o u ld f o l lo w v ia e m a il o n a r e g u l a r b a s i s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, but that – if a person says I have used the

f o o t a g e fo r o n e h o u r w h e n t h e y h a v e u s e d i t f o r f iv e h o u r s y o u w o u l d
n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th e y h a v e b e e n h o n e s t w it h y o u o r n o t . Is i t n o t ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

R i g h t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Th e r e is j u s t n o

w a y w e c o u l d h a v e s e n t s o m e b o d y o u t t o t h e ir o ffi c e s t o g o a n d c h e c k
10

e a c h a n d e v e r y b i t o f f o o ta g e . Yo u k n o w …
CHAIRPERSON: If you had sent somebody would it have been easy to
– t o fi n d o u t h o w m u c h th e fo o t a g e – f o r h o w m u c h t i m e th e fo o t a g e h a d
b e e n u s e d o r w o u l d th a t n o t h a v e b e e n p o s s ib l e t o d e t e r m i n e ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

W e r e l ie d o n th e h o n e s ty o f t h e

c li e n t s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , b u t I a m a s k in g a d i ffe r e n t q u e s ti o n .

The

q u e s t io n i s i f y o u d i d n o t tr u s t t h e c l i e n t w h a t i s i t t h a t y o u c o u l d h a v e
d o n e t o c h e c k w h e t h e r y o u a r e b e i n g m is l e d o r n o t w h e n a c l ie n t t e l ls
y o u I u s e d t h e f o o t a g e f o r X a m o u n t o f ti m e w h e n i n fa c t i t w a s fo r
20

more.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

C h a ir p e r s o n I c o u l d h a v e a s k e d f o r

h i m D V D b u r n t in t i m e c o d e c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d t h a t w o u l d h a v e t o ld y o u e x a c t ly h o w m u c h
ti m e h a d b e e n u s e d ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : D e f i n i t e l y. N o d o u b t a b o u t it .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s th a t s o m e t h in g t h a t w a s a v a il a b l e a t t h e ti m e
t h a t th is tr a n s a c ti o n t o o k p l a c e ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

Ye s .

I c o u l d h a v e a s k e d th e m f o r a

DVCPRO copy …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Of whatever they have broadcast.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: That would have meant our DVCPRO
c o p y – a tw o h o u r D V D c o p y.
10

Th e y w e n t o u t 2 4 h o u r s a d a y.

Th a t

w o u ld h a v e m e a n t 1 2 D V D s a d a y. J a , I c o u l d h a v e a s k e d t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n f in e . T h e y w o u l d – t h e r e is
n o t h i n g – n o t - t h a t is n o t v ia b le a b o u t d o i n g i t t h a t w a y. I s t h e r e ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Q u i t e r ig h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h y w a s i t n o t – w h y w a s t h a t n o t d o n e ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

When

I

approached

them

a ft e r

M a d i b a p a s s e d a w a y t h e y i m m e d i a t e ly r e s p o n d e d a n d t h e y c a m e b a c k
a n d th e y d e c l a r e d in a n h o n e s t w a y. Si a s w e h a v e u s e d 2 7 m i n u t e s o f
y o u r fo o t a g e . S o I tr u s t e d t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ja, but what did you say in an honest way because

y o u d o n o t – y o u d o n o t h a v e a w a y o f k n o w i n g w h e th e r t h e y w e r e
b e i n g h o n e s t . S h o u l d y o u n o t s i m p ly s a y t h e y s a i d to m e t h e y u s e d 2 7
m i n u t e s a n d I a c c e p te d th a t b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e
b e i n g h o n e s t ? Yo u d i d n o t k n o w th a t . D id y o u ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Yo u a r e r ig h t C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d in t h e p r o c e s s S A B C c o u ld - m a y w e l l h a v e i n

Page 117 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
e ffe c t b e e n r o b b e d o f r e v e n u e t h a t i t c o u l d h a v e o b t a in e d . I a m s a y in g
r o b b e d n o t in a c r i m i n a l s e n s e .

I t – i t s u ff e r e d l o s s .

It c o u l d h a v e

g a i n e d r e v e n u e a n d i t d i d n o t g a i n th a t r e v e n u e .
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Yo u a r e r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a c c e p t t h a t ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I a g r e e 1 0 0 p e r c e n t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
M a y b e j u s t la s tly th e n M r S c o t t y o u s a i d t h e r e w e r e p a y m e n ts .

Are

t h o s e t h e o n e s r e f le c t e d a t p a g e 6 4 ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h e i n v o i c e s a r e b e f o r e th a t b u t
y o u h a v e g o t p a y m e n ts t h a t a r e lis t e d a t p a g e 6 4 . 6 4 w o u l d b e w r i t t e n
o n t h e r i g h t t o p h a n d c o r n e r.
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Correct.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Advocate.
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o o n f r o m t h e q u e s t io n s
t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d a s k e d y o u t h e n y o u w o u ld – I t a k e it th a t y o u
w o u ld n o t ta k e i s s u e w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r S u n d a r a m th a t t h e m a n n e r
in w h ic h a d e c l a r a ti o n w a s m a d e b y y o u r o ff ic e r e l y i n g o n th e u s e r o f
t h e f o o t a g e w a s n o t a g o o d w a y o f – w a s n o t a c o m m e r c i a l ly v ia b le
manner of – of doing business.

Page 118 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I agree.

There should have been a

m e t h o d i n p l a c e to c h e c k e a c h a n d e v e r y s e c o n d f o o t a g e g o i n g o u t o f
t h e b u il d in g .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s

and

that

was

your

r e s p o n s i b i li ty ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

M a y b e – I w a s n e v e r t o l d it is m y

r e s p o n s i b i li ty. S a l e o f f o o t a g e s t a r t e d l o n g b e fo r e I s t a r t e d w o r k i n g f o r
the SABC.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :
10

Ye s b u t f o r 2 5 y e a r s a s y o u

w e r e w o r k i n g w i th t h e S A B C y o u c o n ti n u e d i n t h e s a m e m a n n e r w h ic h
you

described

to

the

Chairperson

without

p u t t in g

in

the

other

m e c h a n is m o f t h e b u r n t in c o d e ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

J a , b u t q u i te f r a n k ly y o u k n o w r i g h t

fr o m th e d a y I s t a r te d w e h a d fa i th a n d tr u s t i n th e c l i e n ts . I w a s n e v e r
t o l d t o p l a y p o li c e m a n , n e v e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t M r S c o t t I c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h e n y o u tr u s t

s o m e b o d y th a t y o u h a v e – y o u k n o w a n d y o u h a v e k n o w n f o r a l o n g
ti m e b u t s o m e ti m e th e c l ie n t is s o m e b o d y th a t y o u m e e t f o r th e f ir s t
ti m e w h e n t h e y w a n t th e f o o ta g e . S o h o w d o y o u – h o w d o y o u w o r k o n
20

t h e b a s i s t h a t t h a t p e r s o n is a n h o n e s t p e r s o n w h e n y o u r e l y – t h e r e is
n o tr a c k r e c o r d t o r e ly o n .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

C h a ir p e r s o n y o u j u s t h o p e t h a t t h e

c li e n t a c ts in g o o d f a i t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u c a n n o t r u n a b u s i n e s s l ik e t h a t . C a n y o u
a n d th a t m ig h t n o t b e y o u r fa u l t b u t r e a ll y i f y o u g i v e s o m e b o d y

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
s o m e t h i n g th a t t h e y c a n u s e to m a k e m o n e y b e c a u s e t h a t f o o t a g e t h i s
p a r t ic u l a r c li e n t w a n t e d to u s e in t h e c o u r s e o f b u s i n e s s - o f th e ir
b u s i n e s s y o u k n o w – A N N 7 a n d t h e y k n o w th a t t o - if t h e y g i v e y o u –
t h e y k n o w t h a t y o u w i ll n o t h a v e a w a y o r y o u w i ll t a k e t h e ir w o r d w h e n
t h e y s a y w e u s e d i t fo r o n e h o u r w h e n i n fa c t t h e y u s e d i t f o r t h r e e
h o u r s a n d t h e y k n o w i f t h e y s a y i t is th r e e h o u r s t h e y p a y m o r e . I f t h e y
s a y o n e h o u r t h e y p a y le s s y o u k n o w. T h e r e a r e p e o p l e o u t th e r e w h o
w i ll s a y – w h o w i ll m i s l e d y o u .

So unless you – you have had – you

k n o w – a tr a c k r e c o r d o f d e a li n g w i th t h e m a n d t h e ir h o n e s ty h a s b e e n
10

p r o v e d i t s h o u l d b e p r o b l e m a ti c b e c a u s e if y o u r u n a b u s i n e s s s i m p ly
o n a b a s is t h a t y o u w i ll tr u s t th a t e v e r y c li e n t w h o g o e s th r o u g h y o u r
d o o r is a n h o n e s t p e r s o n th e n t h e r e w il l b e p r o b le m s . Yo u a p p r e c i a t e
that?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

I d o C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a g r e e 1 0 0

percent there should have been a way …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : To m o n i t o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N S S C O T T : Fo o t a g e g o i n g o u t o f th e b u il d i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d e s p e c ia lly b e c a u s e fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d i t is
n o t a s i f t h e r e w a s n o w a y o f – th e r e w a s n o m e c h a n is m t h a t c o u l d b e
put in place.

Fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a id t h e r e w a s a m e c h a n i s m t h a t

c o u l d b e p u t i n p la c e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u c o u l d k n o w e x a c tl y h o w
m u c h ti m e h a d b e e n u s e d a n d t h e q u e s t io n is w h e n y o u h a v e g o t a
m e c h a n is m t h a t is m e a n t t o p r o t e c t S A B C i n th a t s i t u a t i o n .

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W h y is it

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
n o t – w h y w a s i t n o t u s e d a n d t h e n w e n o w h a v e e v i d e n c e th a t t h is
a r c h i v e f o o t a g e w a s g i v e n t o A N N 7 fo r a n u n j u s ti f ia b l y lo w a m o u n t .
T h a t is – I t h i n k t h e p r e v io u s w i t n e s s s a id s o m e b o d y f r o m A N N 7 u s e d t o
s a y t h a t t h e y g o t t h is fo o ta g e fo r p e a n u ts f r o m S A B C . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : I d i d n o t h e a r t h e la s t p a r t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e la s t w it n e s s w h o w a s b e f o r e y o u c a m e h e r e …
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e g a v e e v id e n c e a n d s a i d s o m e b o d y fr o m A N N 7 o r

s o m e b o d y c o n n e c t e d w i t h A N N 7 t o w h o m t h e fo o t a g e w a s s o l d b y S A B C
10

w a s b o a s t in g a r o u n d s a y in g t h a t t h e y g o t t h is f o o ta g e fr o m S A B C f o r
peanuts.

I t h i n k t h e r e w a s m e n t io n o f b e e r a n d – fo r b e e r a n d

s o m e t h i n g e ls e . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u s a i d t h a t o r s o m e b o d y e ls e .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

C h a i r p e r s o n i f t h a t p e r s o n g o t it f o r

p e a n u t s h e d i d n o t g e t i t f r o m m e a , a n d b , I h a v e s t u c k to th e
agreement which I had with Nazeem Howa.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N
M r C h a ir p e r s o n .

SC:

Thank

you.

Thank

you

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t is t h e e v id e n c e fr o m

t h is w i t n e s s , th a n k y o u .
20

CHAIRPERSON: So the footage that you have personal knowledge the
f o o t a g e th a t y o u s o l d a l l t o g e t h e r a m o u n t e d to fo o t a g e f o r h o w m u c h
ti m e ? Is i t 2 0 0 0 ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : 2 0 0 0 m i n u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 0 0 m i n u te s is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : 1 9 8 2 to b e p r e c is e .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M r H o w a o r A N N 7 p a id h o w m u c h f o r t h a t?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

T h e y p a i d R 7 0 f o r 2 0 0 0 m in u t e s

b e c a u s e I h a d t h i s a g r e e m e n t w i th t h e m t h a t a t R 7 0 y o u t a k e 2 0 0 0 a n d
they paid R140 000.
CHAIRPERSON: R140 000?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : J a , e x c l u d i n g VAT.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u s a y th a t th a t a m o u n t w h ic h t h e y p a i d w a s
10

r e a s o n a b l e a n d a c c o r d e d w i t h w h a t S A B C u s e d t o c h a r g e g e n e r a lly f o r
footage?
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : D i d I?
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t t h e a m o u n t th a t t h e y p a i d a r e y o u s a y in g it a s

r e a s o n a b l e a n d t h a t it a c c o r d e d w i t h t h e r a t e s th a t S A B C u s e d t o
c h a r g e f o r a r c h iv e fo o t a g e ?
MR JOSIAS JOHANNES SCOTT:

The

amount

was

100

percent

a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t I h a v e q u o te d th e m a n d a l s o a s p e r th e m in u t e s
w h ic h th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o t a k e a w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e g o in g to g e t a n y w i t n e s s o t h e r w i tn e s s e s w h o
t a lk t o t h e r e a s o n a b le o r o th e r w i s e o f t h e p r i c e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : U n fo r t u n a t e l y M r C h a ir m a n t h i s
is t h e o n ly w i tn e s s w h o w a s w o r k i n g i n t h a t d e p a r t m e n t w h o w a s
d e a li n g w i t h t h e p r ic in g a n d e v e r y t h i n g e ls e a n d h e w a s t h e o n ly

Page 122 of 127

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
person.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n w h e t h e r t h e

c o m p la i n t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h is f o o t a g e w a s s o l d fo r a s o n g w h e t h e r t h a t –
t h e r e i s j u s ti f ic a ti o n in t h a t c o m p l a i n t o r n o t.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I a m a w a r e o f a f o r e n s i c
in v e s t i g a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h a t t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s i n d ic a t e d
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h a t h a d b e e n c o n d u c te d b u t i t
w a s d o n e in a v e r y s h o d d y m a n n e r a n d ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w h a t – w h a t n e e d s to b e d o n e is to e s t a b l is h w h a t
t h e n o r m i n t h e in d u s tr y is .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : I n t h e in d u s tr y is , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s R 7 0 a t t h a t t i m e w a s it t h e n o r m – y o u k n o w.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h a t k i n d o f fo o t a g e a n d – o r n o t – y o u k n o w.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: They had R100 but …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h e y r e d u c e d i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M is c o u n t e d a n d r e d u c e d it .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t is w h a t n e e d s to b e d o n e .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O th e r w i s e w e a r e n o t i n a p o s i ti o n t o s a y w h e t h e r

t h e r e w a s a n y t h i n g w r o n g w it h s e l li n g i t fo r th a t a m o u n t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s .

Thank

you,

yes

M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I m e a n i f t h e r e is a – I a m s u r e t h e r e s h o u ld b e
lo ts o f o t h e r tr a n s a c t i o n s o f t h a t k i n d w i t h i n th e c o u n tr y b u t e v e n if
t h e r e a r e n o t a m s u r e t h a t a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n t o w h a t h a p p e n e d in o th e r
10

c o u n tr i e s w i t h T V s t a ti o n s o r w h a t e v e r …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Can be checked and then can be compared with the

R 1 0 0 p e r m i n u t e o r R 7 0 p e r m i n u t e to s e e w h e t h e r t h a t …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : S h o u l d c h a n g e o r n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is m o r e o r le s s i n l i n e o r n o t .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
20

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u M r S c o t t . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e
excused. Thank you for coming.
M R J O S I A S J O H A N N E S S C O T T : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Thank

Page 124 of 127

you.

Thank

you

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
M r C h a ir m a n .

I n th e s a m e b u n d l e t h e r e is a c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it o f

M r M o l o k o M a s e r u m u l e w h o w a s j u s t a s s i s t in g Mr S c o tt – Mr R a h u l in
c o l l a t i n g t h e – t h e f o o t a g e a n d i t is – i t is t h e v e r y l a s t d o c u m e n t in t h a t
b u n d l e a n d i t i s m a r k e d n u m b e r tw o b e c a u s e h e r e a lly h a s n o in d e p t h
knowledge.

W e s i m p ly a s k t h a t h is s t a t e m e n t ju s t b e s u b m i tt e d i n to

e v i d e n c e w i t h o u t h i m h a v i n g t o b e c a l le d t o te s ti fy.

Ye s , b e c a u s e h e

s i m p l y t h e r e is ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o I t h in k t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t t h in g is to

in v e s t i g a t e w h a t w a s t h e n o r m …
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I n te r m s o f p r i c e s .

Wh at was the – what were the

p r i c e s a n d – a n d t h e n th e o t h e r q u e s ti o n i s w h e th e r t h e tr a n s a c t i o n w a s
d o n e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h e s t a b l is h e d p r o c e d u r e s a t S A B C .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N

SC:

Ye s .

Thank

you.

The

in v e s t i g a t o r s h a v e m a d e n o t e s . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : T h a t – t h a t is th e e v i d e n c e f o r
20

t o d a y M r C h a ir m a n .

I a m a d v is e d t h a t Tr a n s n e t w il l c o n c l u d e i t s

e v i d e n c e t h e n t o m o r r o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f – i f w e h a d k n o w n w e w o u ld fi n i s h th is ti m e w e

could have – Dr Bloom could have come and maybe we could have …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : F i n is h e d to d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fi n i s h e d t o d a y.

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . I t is j u s t t h a t i t w a s
d i ff ic u l t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t e ll .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : E s p e c i a l ly w it h t h e fir s t w i tn e s s
in t h e m o r n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : I t w a s h a r d t o t e l l w h a t t i m e h e
w o u ld fi n is h .
CHAIRPERON: Hm.
10

A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t is a lr i g h t a n d to m o r r o w i t is D r Bl o o m
and who?
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C :

I t h i n k th e r e is a M r Vu k e la o r

something.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : I a m n o t s u r e o f t h e n a m e , b u t I
t h i n k Tr a n s n e t is – h a s p la n n e d I t h in k t w o w i t n e s s e s fo r t o m o r r o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. To m o r r o w w e w i ll s t a r t a t 1 0 …
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w e a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y.
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
A D V T H A N D I V I C TO R IA N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u .

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04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 5 J U N E 2 0 1 9

10

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