C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 4 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 7 7

20

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E 4 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9
CHAIRPERSON :

Good

morning

Ms

Gcabashe,

good

morning

e v e r y b o d y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Good morning DCJ .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e a r e s ta r t i n g l a t e b e c a u s e o f p a r t ly m e , p a r t ly

m a t t e r s o f t h e c o m m is s i o n . O k a y l e t u s – a r e y o u r e a d y ? L e t u s s t a r t
if y o u a r e r e a d y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : We are ready DCJ.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

D C J I th o u g h t I s h o u ld ju s t p la c e o n

record that…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A f te r y o u r e n q u ir y y e s te r d a y r e g a r d in g

lo c a l d a ir y c o m p a n i e s a n d th e c o n ta c t th a t w a s m a d e w i t h t h e m o u r
in v e s t i g a t o r s h a v e tr i e d t o w o r k o n t h a t o v e r n i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d h a v e b e e n a b l e t o f in d t w o

d o c u m e n ts . O n e a p p e a r s t o b e a r e p o r t – a f e a s i b i li ty s tu d y. A s s o o n
a s t h a t c o m e s t o h a n d – a h a r d c o p y c o m e s t o h a n d I w il l m a k e s u r e
20

t h a t m y c o l le a g u e M r B u t h e l e z i g e ts a c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Of that document.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h a t M r T h a b e t h e c a n l o o k a t it .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 2 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e s e c o n d o n e is I t h in k a r e a c o u p le o f
a ffi d a v i ts t h a t d e a l w i t h t h e s a m e is s u e t h a t a p p e a r e d t o b e i n t h e
b u n d l e t h a t t h e N PA h a d . A g a i n a s s o o n a s t h o s e d o c u m e n ts a r e t o
h a n d w e w il l g iv e M r B u t h e l e z i a c o p y a g a i n s o t h a t M r Th a b e t h e c a n
d e a l w it h t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : As I u n d e r s t a n d m a t te r s Mr T h a b e t h e h a s
in a n y e v e n t r e q u e s te d t h a t h e p r e p a r e s a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : He may wish to deal with those matters.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w h a te v e r e ls e i n th a t a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u D C J .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

In r e la t io n t o th e q u e s t i o n s Mr Th a b e t h e

good morning again.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : Good morning.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
20

annexures.

We were yesterday going through you r

Th e a n n e x u r e s to y o u r 2 0 1 7 a ff i d a v i t .

Th o s e a r e t o b e

f o u n d i n Ex h i b it H H 1 0 Vo l u m e B . A n d t h a t is t h e v o l u m e th a t s t a r ts w i t h
y o u r 2 0 1 7 a ffi d a v it a n d t h e n h a s t a b s w h e r e a l l t h e a n n e x u r e s o u g h t to
be.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : Thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Are you good with that? Thank you. The

Page 3 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
D C J w il l h a v e t o h e a r w h e th e r y o u a r e c o m f o r ta b le w i t h w h a t I h a v e
said or not.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir I w a n te d j u s t t o i n t e r je c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I f th e C h a ir w o u ld a l lo w m e to m a k e a
s t a te m e n t r e g a r d in g th e d is c u s s i o n w e h a d y e s t e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

J a C h a ir t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

M a y b e C h a ir I n e e d t o c o m e b a c k a n d m a y b e t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t I m a d e
10

m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a p p r o p r i a t e r e g a r d i n g th e i s s u e o f t h e m e d i a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I am aware we made a debate

y e s t e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : Regarding the media.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S t o p p in g t h e p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

J a w h a t I a m s a y i n g m a y b e it m i g h t

n o t h a v e b e e n a p p r o p r i a te t o s a y i t i s t h e m e d i a th a t s t o p p e d t h e
project.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t h i n k w h a t is c o r r e c t is th a t a f t e r t h e
m e d i a a r tic l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 4 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e n t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f e n q u ir ie s

that were made.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d d u r i n g th a t p e r i o d m a y b e t w o

t h i n g s t h a t h a p p e n e d . Th e o n e w h ic h I h a v e r e f e r r e d y e s t e r d a y w h ic h
le d t o tr e a s u r y d o i n g a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n . A n d t h e s e c o n d o n e w h i c h w a s
t h e m e d i a e n q u ir y t h a t w a s a ls o m a d e to P a r a s w h ic h a ls o m a d e t h e m
t o – t o b e v e r y r e l u c t a n t t o p r o c e e d b e c a u s e o f t h e – o f th e s ta t u s o f
t h e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e P a r a s w a s – is a m u l ti n a t io n a l c o m p a n y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

S o t h e y g e t w o r r ie d a b o u t th e – th e

m e d i a . S o t h a t is th e is s u e n o t n e c e s s a r i l y m e a n i n g th a t i t is th e m e d ia
t h a t s t o p p e d t h e p r o je c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t I w a n t t o

[i n d is t in c t] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To c la r i fy. O k a y n o t h a t i s fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u M r T h a b e t h e . W e w e r e d e a li n g
w i t h A n n e x u r e 6 i f y o u g o t o Ta b 6 .
20

A n d i t is a r e p o r t th a t w e h a v e

a c t u a ll y d e a l t w i t h l a r g e ly in y o u r p r e v i o u s e v id e n c e . I w o u l d j u s t lik e
y o u t o d e a l w i t h o n e s m a l l a s p e c t t h a t I d o n o t b e li e v e w e h a v e to u c h e d
o n a n d t h a t y o u w il l fi n d o n p a g e 3 1 6 u n d e r P r o c e s s i n g P l a n t .

Th e

reason of that I have a great interest as a – the evidence leader in the
p r o c e s s in g p l a n t o f c o u r s e y o u k n o w i s b e c a u s e th a t is m o n e y t h a t
E s ti n a / P a r a s w a s g o i n g t o b e p r o v i d i n g .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s .

N o w t h i s s t a t e o f th e a r t

I S O 9 0 0 1 / 2 0 0 0 a n d H A C C P c e r ti fi e d f a c il i t y t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o p u t
u p y o u m e n ti o n i t i n t h a t r e p o r t i n t h e v e r y la s t p a r a g r a p h .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n y o u m a y b e w e a r e n o t a s t e c h n ic a l ly
in c li n e d a s y o u a r e c a n y o u ju s t e x p l a i n w h a t e x a c t ly th e y w e r e
s u p p o s e d t o p u t u p b e c a u s e t h is is w h a t y o u w e r e e x p e c ti n g fr o m t h e m .
T h i s c e r t i fi e d f a c il it y.
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
those

are

the

c e r t if ic a ti o n

J a C h a ir w h y w e h a d in c l u d e d t h a t

a lr e a d y

they

were

having

in

t h e ir

p o s s e s s i o n s . T h o s e a r e th e a s s e s s m e n t t h a t a r e b e i n g m a d e a n d th e n
if a c o m p a n y m e e ts th o s e r e q u i r e m e n ts t h e n th e y a r e g iv e n t h o s e
c e r t if ic a te s w h ic h d e t e r m in e a c e r t a i n l e v e l o f c o m p l i a n c e .

So hence

t h e n w e r e f e r t o th e m . S o i t is a v e r y t e c h n ic a l k in d o f a c e r t i fi c a t e th a t
is g i v e n t h a t q u a l i fi e s y o u t o b e a b l e t o is s u e – to b e a b l e t o d o
p r o c e s s in g a t t h a t le v e l .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o i t is a c e r ti fi c a t e t h a t s a y s th a t t h e y

h a v e t h e c a p a c i ty a n d c a p a b il i ty to d o p r o c e s s i n g a t t h e le v e l a t w h i c h
20

y o u h a d s p e c k e d w a s s p e c i fi e d th e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you.

It h e lp s .

B e c a u s e w e w i ll

la t e r o n d e a l w i t h w h a t e x a c t ly t h e y d i d t h e n p u t u p a n d w e w i ll c o m e
b a c k to t h i s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Page 6 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH

GCABASHE SC:

And

again

we

w il l r e ly

on your

assessment.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y t h a t is f in e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d y o u r k n o w l e d g e o n t h is . M P T 7 w h i c h
is th e n e x t a n n e x u r e w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h . B e c a u s e o f t h e p r e s e n t a t i o n
t h a t w e h a v e ju s t s p o k e n a b o u t th e M P T t h e a n n e x u r e 6 y o u t h e n w e r e
a b l e to s e c u r e r e s o lu t io n fr o m th e Pr o v in c ia l c a b in e t .

MPT8 the next

t a b , a n n e x u r e 8 w e h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d . T h is is t h e in v i t a t i o n l e t te r th a t
y o u w o u ld h a v e r e c e iv e d – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n – y o u w o u l d h a v e s e n t t o
10

t h e C E O o f P a r a s . I f y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t M P T 8 is
d e a lt w i th t h e r e . S o i f y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 1 2 j u s t s a m e d o c u m e n t –
same document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w e a r e g o in g t o h is a ffi d a v i t ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S a m e f il e – h is a ff i d a v i t , s a m e f il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e s a m e fi le ju s t th e b e g i n n i n g C h a ir m a n .
A n d w e g o to p a g e 2 4 7 o f th e s a m e f il e .

Yo u m e n ti o n h e r e t h a t y o u

in v i te d t h e C E O o f P a r a s b y w a y o f a le t t e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A l l I a m s a y i n g is w e d o n o t h a v e t h a t . I
d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t to a d d a n y t h in g a t a ll b u t I a m s a y in g I d o n o t
k n o w i f y o u s t il l h a v e a c o p y o f t h a t le t t e r. I t is n o t in t h e fi l e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

O k a y. Ye s C h a ir t h e – it w a s w h e n

t h is a ff id a v i t w a s d e p o s e d a c o p y o f t h a t l e tt e r w a s a t t a c h e d . I t is o n e
o f t h o s e d o c u m e n ts th a t a r e n o l o n g e r i n – i n m y p o s s e s s i o n C h a ir.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

That is fine.

I do not think anything in

p a r t ic u l a r t u r n s o n i t b e c a u s e w e k n o w t h a t M r K u m a r d i d c o m e t o
S o u th A fr ic a . W e h a v e d is c u s s e d th a t p r e v io u s ly.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h e n 9 i f y o u g o t o Ta b 9 t h a t i s t h e

o r i g in a l p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l b y E s ti n a d a t e d th e 1 5 M a y 2 0 1 2 . W e h a v e
d e a lt w i t h th a t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n o u r p r e v io u s h e a r in g s .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A t th e e n d o f t h a t y o u h a v e a n n e x e d t h e
d e v i a ti o n – w h a t w e h a v e b e e n c a l li n g th e d e v i a ti o n m e m o r a n d u m .
A g a i n i t is s o m e t h i n g w e h a v e d e a l t w i th .

A n d th a t d e v ia t io n

m e m o r a n d u m w o u ld h a v e b e e n M P T 9 . O k a y ? I t is ju s t a t t h e e n d a f t e r
8 comes 9.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : Okay thank Chair yes it is that.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d y o u w i ll fi n d i t t h e r e . W e h a v e d e a l t
with that – that issue.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Th a n k s .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e t h e n m o v e o n to 1 0 w h ic h i s th e

a c c e p ta n c e o f t h e p r o p o s a l . Yo u h a v e a g a in d e a lt w i t h th a t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : In your evidence.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e o n ly p o i n t I w a n t t o c o n fir m w i th

Page 8 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
y o u is th a t t h o u g h y o u m e n t i o n a p a r tn e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 2
o f th is le t t e r y o u h a v e e x p l a i n e d t h a t y o u h a d n o t i n te n d e d t o e s t a b li s h
a P P P. T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f y o u r e v id e n c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I f y o u c a n r e p e a t a g a i n C h a ir I a m n o t
[i n d ic t in c t] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t I w il l a c t u a lly …
CHAIRPERSON : Or maybe…
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D o is r e a d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Read the sentence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON :

M a y b e l e t m e p u t – l e t m e s a y s h e is s a y in g s h e

u n d e r s t a n d s y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e to t h e e ff e c t th a t y o u d id n o t a t a n y
s t a g e in t e n d t o e s t a b l is h p u b l ic / p r iv a te p a r tn e r s h ip .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o t h a t is c o r r e c t , t h a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e o n l y r e a s o n I a s k f o r c o n fir m a t io n
is b e c a u s e th is p a r a g r a p h 2 m e n ti o n s a p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t . J u s t t o
m a k e s u r e th a t w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e . T h a n k y o u .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . W e th e n g o to 11 –
A n n e x u r e 11 . W e d i d n o t r e c e iv e th a t .

It r e f e r s t o th e v e r i fic a ti o n o f

Page 9 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
a c c o u n t d e ta il s a n d t h i s v e r if ic a ti o n w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e d o n e b y th e
P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y. A g a i n I d o n o t th i n k m u c h t u r n s o n th a t . W e w il l
d e a l w i t h m a t te r s r e l a ti n g t o th e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w h e n t h e Tr e a s u r y
w i t n e s s o r w i t n e s s e s c o m e i n . M P T 1 2 is t h e a g r e e m e n t o f t h e 7 J u ly i t
is a ls o c a l l e d t h e A g r e e m e n t o f t h e 5 J u ly. W e h a v e tr a v e r s e d m u c h o f
t h e c o n t e n t o f t h is a g r e e m e n t p r e v io u s ly.

T h e r e a r e ju s t a c o u p l e o f

t h i n g s t h a t w e h a d n o t l o o k e d a t i n t h a t a g r e e m e n t w h ic h I w o u ld l ik e
y o u t o j u s t g iv e a s h o r t e x p l a n a t io n o n . T h e fi r s t is – s o i f y o u g o to 1 2
w h ic h i s t h e a g r e e m e n t .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d y o u l o o k a t N o t e 11 . 2 o r C l a u s e 11 .2 .
T h e h e a d i n g t h e r e is I n t e ll e c t u a l – O w n e r s h i p o f I n te ll e c t u a l Pr o p e r t y.
A n d w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o h a v e a g r e e d w i t h Es t in a h e r e is th e y m u s t
and I underline the word must return without delay to the department all
m a t e r i a ls i n t h e ir p o s s e s s i o n w h i c h b e lo n g e d t o th e d e p a r t m e n t . M o s t
i m p o r t a n tly is th e n e x t b i t .
“ R e g a r d l e s s o f w h e th e r o r n o t s u c h m a t e r i a ls w e r e
o r i g in a l ly s u p p li e d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t to E s ti n a . ”
Yo u a r e c o m f o r t a b l e w i th t h a t ?

20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d t h e r e i s n o f u r t h e r e x p l a n a ti o n th a t

y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h e s a m e . Es t in a h a d to g iv e e v e r y th in g b a c k t o
you.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : Back to – yes.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Hm.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON :

J u s t t o r e fr e s h m y m e m o r y w e d id d e a l w i th t h e

a g r e e m e n t a t q u i t e s o m e l e n g th e a r li e r b u t I – a n d I d o k n o w t h a t o n e
o f th e is s u e s I t h i n k I r a is e d w i t h y o u w a s t h e f a c t t h a t th is a g r e e m e n t
w a s w i th E s ti n a a n d n o t w it h P a r a s . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M y m e m o r y is n o t v e r y c l e a r n o w b y t h e w a y d i d
y o u s a y th e r e w a s s o m e a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d w i t h P a r a s
– s e p a r a te a g r e e m e n t o r w a s t h e r e ju s t a l e tt e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s b e t w e e n
10

t h e M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s b e t w e e n Es t in a a n d P a r a s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

B u t th e r e w a s n o – n o t h in g – th e r e i s n o

agreement.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D ir e c tl y b e t w e e n P a r a s a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t – n o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja.

Th e r e w a s s o m e m e n t io n I t h i n k o f s o m e l e t te r

m a y b e i t w a s a l e t te r fr o m P a r a s s a y i n g E s ti n a w o u l d b e t h e ir p a r tn e r
o r s o m e th i n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s j u s t a l e tt e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s j u s t a l e tt e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o th e d e p a r t m e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : D e p a r t m e n t y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B e c a u s e I k n o w t h a t y o u – y o u s a i d I t h in k t h a t
fr o m y o u r p o i n t o f v ie w y o u r p a r t n e r s h i p w a s w i th P a r a s a n d E s ti n a w a s

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
P a r a s ’ p a r t n e r o r a g e n t o r s o m e t h i n g ja .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t r i g h t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . B u t i t w o u ld s e e m a n d th is is m a y b e a p o i n t t h a t
w e d i d d e a l w i t h b e f o r e b u t I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e . S o i t w o u ld s e e m
t h a t f o r a ll i n te n ts a n d p u r p o s e s in te r m s o f r e c o r d s t h e o n ly e n t it y t h a t
you had as a department you had a partner – an agreement with or a
p a r t n e r s h i p w i t h w a s E s ti n a ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Not Paras.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t j a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W e h a v e d e a l t w i th 11 .

Can you please

lo o k a t C la u s e 1 2 F in a n c i a l C o n t r o l a n d i t s a y s :
20

“ T h i s a g r e e m e n t is s u b je c t t o t h e p r o v i s io n s o f th e P u b li c F in a n c e
Management Act 1999”
W h a t h a d y o u in t e n d e d h e r e M r T h a b e th e i f y o u c o u l d e x p l a i n ?
B e c a u s e th is i s p a r t o f y o u r a g r e e m e n t w it h Es t in a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a i r – C h a ir t h i s m e a n s th a t w e
w i ll – w e w il l d o a ll tr a n s a c t i o n s i n l in e w i t h th e P F M A . T h a t is w h a t i t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
is s a y i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u s e e I a s k th e q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e w e

h a v e h a d d i s c u s s io n s a r o u n d tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
1 . W e h a v e h a d d i s c u s s io n s a r o u n d t h e h o w t h e P M FA g iv e s e ff e c t
t o S e c ti o n 2 1 7 o f T h e C o n s t i tu t io n .
2 . W e h a v e h a d d is c u s s i o n s a r o u n d t h e Tr e a s u r y r e g u l a ti o n s a n d
h o w t h o s e t o o o f c o u r s e g i v e e ff e c t u l ti m a t e ly t o S e c ti o n 2 1 7 .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is [i n d is ti n c t ] .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e h a s

b e e n th a t th e tr a n s fe r p a y m e n t – w e ll f ir s t m o n ie s t h a t w e r e p a i d t o
E s ti n a w e r e tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H o w w e r e y o u g o in g t o a c c o u n t f o r t h o s e
tr a n s fe r

p a y m e n ts

w i th in

the

fr a m e w o r k

of

the

P u b lic

Fi n a n c e

M a n a g e m e n t Ac t t h a t i s a l l I a m a s k i n g y o u t o e x p l a i n ? Yo u m a y h a v e
d o n e s o b e fo r e b u t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f y o u c o u ld j u s t g o o v e r i t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r tr a n s f e r p a y m e n t a r e i n t h e
PFMA.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Can you just take us through the

p a r t ic u l a r p o r ti o n s t h a t y o u t h i n k a r e d i r e c t ly r e l e v a n t t o t h i s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s I m a y n o t b e a b l e to d o i t r ig h t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s n o , n o , t h a t i s fi n e b u t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g
is t h a t t h e r e a r e p r o v i s i o n s t h a t d e a l w i t h t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Tr a n s f e r p a y m e n t y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Can – can…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

C a n y o u t h e n e x p l a i n y o u r e s s e n t ia l

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f h o w y o u w o u l d b e h o l d i n g E s t i n a to a c c o u n t w it h t h e
10

P F M A i n y o u r h a n d ? A n d t h e r e a s o n I a s k t h is is b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w
if I s h o u l d j u s t b r in g i t f o r w a r d r a th e r th a n le a v e i t w h e r e i t i s . Th e r e is
an Auditor General report.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t s p e a k s t o m o n it o r in g e tc e t e r a . C a n I
d e a l w it h i t w h e r e I h a v e p u t i t ? It s o m e w h e r e t o w a r d s t h e e n d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is fi n e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d fr o m th e A u d it o r

G e n e r a l r e p o r t w h i c h w e w il l l o o k a t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t t h e r e i s a m o n it o r in g m e c h a n i s m . I
ju s t th o u g h t y o u m i g h t b e a b le t o t a lk u s th r o u g h t h a t m o n i t o r in g
m e c h a n is m ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r th e – w h a t w e h a d s e t u p i n
t h e d e p a r t m e n t fo r m o n i t o r i n g is t h a t o n a m o n t h ly b a s is w e g o i n g t o
g e t m o n t h l y r e p o r ts – m o n th ly f in a n c i a l r e p o r ts .

Page 14 of 203

A n d o n a q u a r t e r ly

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
b a s is w e w il l a l s o g e t q u a r t e r ly r e p o r ts . N o w t h e p a y m e n t w a s p a i d i n
tr a n c h e s s o t h a t in a n y e v e n t y o u h a v e a p r o b le m y o u w il l t h e n b e a b le
t o s a y w a i t l e t u s t a lk t o t h is r e p o r t b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d .
m e c h a n is m s w e r e i n p l a c e .

So those

N o w o n a n a n n u a l b a s is t h e n t h e A u d i t o r

G e n e r a l a ls o c o m e s in a n d th e y a ls o g o i n s id e t h e y d o th e ir m o n i t o r in g
a n d t h e y d o t h e ir a s s e s s m e n t a n d t h e y i s s u e a r e p o r t in th a t r e g a r d .
S o m o n i to r i n g m e c h a n is m s a r e in p l a c e i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d a ls o
o v e r s ig h t o u ts id e t h e d e p a r t m e n t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

Th a n k y o u .

I know I can explore that

f u r th e r w it h d i ffe r e n t e x a m p l e s b u t I a m – I a m – I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u
s a y in g .

C a n w e t h e n l o o k a t C la u s e 1 5 . 3 ?

15.3 is part of the

t e r m in a ti o n s e t o f c l a u s e s a n d i t i s – i t i s a b it o f a tr ic k y o n e w h e n y o u
lo o k a t t h e p r o v i s o w h ic h i s t h e l a s t t w o l i n e s o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h . M a y b e
a g a in i t i s u s e f u l C h a ir m a n j u s t to r e a d th e w h o l e p r o v is i o n i n b e c a u s e
it is g o in g to c o m e u p a g a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n r e l a ti o n t o t h e F D C .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
20

Mr T h a b e th e w o u ld y o u lik e t o r e a d t h a t

in t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r a r e y o u r e f e r r in g to 1 5 .11 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o S ir. 1 5 . 3 o n p a g e 3 4 9 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : E x h a u s ti o n o f Fu n d s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Correct.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
“ I t is a ls o a g r e e d t h a t s h o u l d f u n d s n o l o n g e r b e
a v a i la b le to p a y f o r th e e x e c u t i o n o f t h e p r o j e c t t h e
d e p a r t m e n t m a y t e r m in a t e t h is a g r e e m e n t i n it s o w n
d is c r e ti o n o r t e m p o r a r i ly s u s p e n d a ll o r p a r t o f t h e
p r o j e c t b y n o ti c e t o E s ti n a w h o s h a ll i m m e d i a t e ly
make arrangement to stop the performance of the
p r o j e c t a n d m i n i m is e f u r th e r e x p e n d i tu r e .

P r o v id e d

t h a t E s ti n a s h a ll h e r e u p o n b e e n ti tl e d to p a y m e n t i n
f u ll f o r t h e s e r v ic e s d e l iv e r e d u p t o th e d a t e o f
t e r m in a ti o n o r s u s p e n s io n . ”

10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o m y q u e s t io n is , c a n y o u j u s t c l a r i f y

w h a t th e s e r v ic e s d e li v e r e d w o u l d b e in t h e s a m e s e n t e n c e ?
“ So E s t in a s h a l l b e e n ti t le d t o p a y m e n t i n f u ll f o r t h e
s e r v ic e s d e li v e r e d .”
W h a t a r e th o s e s e r v ic e s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
s e r v ic e s .

C h a ir th e r e c o u l d b e a r a n g e o f

There could be work done, paid for but maybe the

d e p a r t m e n t d id n o t p a y fo r t h e m . It c o u ld h a v e b e e n o r d e r s t h a t w o u l d
h a v e b e e n p l a c e d f o r d e li v e r y. I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n w o r k d o n e h e n c e th e
20

c h o ic e o f s e r v ic e s s o t h a t y o u c o v e r a l l a r e a s th a t m o n e y w a s s p e n t f o r
b u t n o t p a i d f o r b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e r e a s o n I h a v e b e e n s tr u g g li n g w i th

t h is s in c e y o u s t a r te d g iv i n g e v i d e n c e is b e c a u s e w e k n o w t h a t E s t i n a
w a s a p p o in t e d a s b o t h a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t a n d a m a n a g e m e n t
a g e n t.

Page 16 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

N o w n o b o d y g o e s i n to a n a r r a n g e m e n t

w i t h o u t th e r e b e s o m e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e fo r t h e m .

And I have been

g r a p p l i n g w i t h h o w th e y w e r e p a i d e i th e r a s i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t – w a s
t h e r e a f ix e d fe e ? O r a s th e m a n a g e m e n t a g e n t. C a n I m a y b e g i v e y o u
t h e e x a m p l e o f F D C w h ic h s e e m s a li t tl e e a s i e r f o r c e r ta i n ly f o r m e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e w i th t h e F D C t h e r e a p p e a r s t o b e
a f ix e d c o n tr a c t p r ic e a n d I – y o u w i ll t a lk a b o u t i t la t e r.
10

assumed

th a t th a t p r ic e

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t .

was the

–

the

payment for

I have

being

an

T h e n t h e y s u b - c o n tr a c t e d t o E ’ ts h o C iv i ls w h o

w e r e b e i n g p a i d a s e p a r a te a m o u n t a n d I h a v e a s s u m e d – I w i ll – a l l
s u b j e c t to w h a t y o u w i ll b e t e l li n g u s l a te r t h a t t h a t p a y m e n t w o u l d t h e n
b e f o r t h e m a n a g i n g a g e n t p a r t o f t h i n g s . S o th e F D C a r r a n g e m e n t is a
li t tl e e a s i e r f o r m e t o u n d e r s t a n d .

I c a n n o t q u i te g r a s p t h e s a m e

d i ff e r e n t ia t io n b e t w e e n i m p le m e n t in g a g e n ts a n d h o w t h e y a r e p a i d
h e r e ? C a n y o u h e l p m e w i th t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir th e F D C o n e w a s v e r y c l e a r
b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e r e q u ir e d to d o m a n a g e m e n t b u t in t h is in s ta n c e
20

w h e n y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s ib il it y t o s e t u p a p r o j e c t t h e n w h e n y o u s e t u p
a p r o j e c t i t m e a n s y o u a r e s e t t in g u p t h e p r o j e c t y o u c a n n o t th e n c l a i m
m a n a g e m e n t fe e u n ti l y o u h a n d o v e r th e p r o j e c t .

I t m e a n s it is y o u r

r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o l o o k a ft e r t h e a s s e t s u n t il i t c o m e s to a s t a g e w h e n
y o u s a y n o w I a m d o n e w i th t h e p r o j e c t I a m h a n d i n g i t o v e r.

I t is

c o m p le t e d . T h e n b e y o n d t h a t t h e n y o u c a n c h a r g e m a n a g e m e n t f e e . I f

Page 17 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h e n y o u h a n d it o v e r a n d y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o g e t t h e o w n e r t o r e c e iv e
it .

B u t m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t w e s h o u l d n o t – th e y s h o u l d n o t b e

c la i m i n g m a n a g e m e n t fe e o t h e r th a n d ir e c t c o s t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : For work done?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : D ir e c t c o s t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O r f o r it e m s p r o c u r e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s d ir e c t c o s t th e n s h o u l d b e p a i d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u s e e Mr T h a b e th e I r e a l ly j u s t w a n t t o
d e b a te th is fo r a b it a n d I s u p p o s e I a ls o h a v e th e s h a r e h o l d i n g
10

s tr u c t u r e i n m in d w h e r e o r i g i n a l ly y o u h a d 4 9 % g o i n g t o Es t in a a n d 5 1 %
o f th e o r ig in a l Za i n a [ ? ] i f y o u r e m e m b e r w h i c h w a s t h e n g o i n g t o
become Mohoma Mobung.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : G o in g t o t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o th e r e Es ti n a w o u l d b e a s h a r e h o l d e r

a n d I c a n s e e t h e c o m m e r c ia l b e n e fi t f o r t h e m a s e q u i ty h o l d e r s t h e y
w o u ld b e g e t ti n g p a y m e n t o f s o m e k in d .

T h a t s h a r e h o l d in g d id n o t

c o m e in t o t h is a g r e e m e n t d i d i t ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a ir.

Th e – y o u w il l r e m e m b e r

t h a t i t – a f t e r I h a d b e e n a d v i s e d b y t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s w e e n d e d u p
w i t h t h is a g r e e m e n t v e r s u s t h e fir s t a g r e e m e n t .

Now this agreement

w a s s a y i n g fi r s t f in is h t h e p r o j e c t b e f o r e t h e s h a r e h o l d in g k i c k s i n , d o
a n d fi n i s h i t a n d t h e n y o u r e v e r t b a c k t o th e s h a r e h o l d i n g s tr u c tu r e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o I b e g y o u r p a r d o n w e r e y o u g o in g t o

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
c o n ti n u e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : No I am…
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u f in is h e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o w h a t w a s i n i t f o r E s ti n a h e r e ?

Yo u

k n o w i n J o h a n n e s b u r g it is – w h e n I g o t h e r e i t is a n e x p r e s s io n I le a r n t
w h a t is i n i t f o r m e . W h a t w a s in – w h a t v a l u e w a s E s t i n a g o i n g to g e t
o u t o f i t s a s s o c i a ti o n w i t h t h i s p r o j e c t ? W e r e t h e y h a p p y ju s t t o a s s is t
a n d n o t g e t a n y th i n g a t a ll ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A s a n in v e s t o r ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I d o n o t k n o w e x p l a i n to m e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e y w o u ld h a v e a s h a r e h o l d i n g .

R e m e m b e r t h e s h a r e s th a t w e h a d a g r e e d o n w i ll t h e n b e h e ld b y
E s ti n a . I t m e a n s t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g a s a n in v e s t o r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B u t I t h o u g h t y o u s a id t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t

w a s n o t c a r r ie d fo r w a r d i n t o t h e n e w J u ly a g r e e m e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I m m e d ia t e ly. T h e a d v i c e t h a t is w h y
t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s r e v is e d s o t h a t i t d o e s n o t s a y o u tr i g h t th a t t h i s i s
the shareholding.
20

Fi n i s h th e p r o je c t , th e c o n s t r u c t i o n a n d o n c e i t is

fi n i s h e d C h a ir th e n – t h e n y o u tr a n s f e r th e w h o l e a s s e t i n t o t h e
s h a r e h o l d in g s tr u c t u r e .

T h e n t h a t s h a r e h o l d i n g s tr u c tu r e is t h e o n e

w h e r e e v e r y b o d y t h e n w i ll b e h o l d i n g s h a r e s . B e c a u s e I a m s u r e y o u –
w e h a v e l o o k e d a t it o n th e le t t e r th a t w a s s e n t b y t h e s ta t e la w
a d v is o r s t o a d v is e u s t o s a y a t a n y g iv e n p o i n t i f t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s
w h o e v e r w a s t h e r e w o u l d th e n d e c id e w e a r e t h e o w n e r s th e y w o u ld

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
s e l l th e ir s h a r e s e v e n b e f o r e y o u fi n i s h i t. T h a t is w h y t h e d e c is io n w a s
s a y in g fi n i s h t h e p r o j e c t a n d t h e n tr a n s f e r th e e n t ir e p r o j e c t i n t o t h a t
s tr u c t u r e w h ic h is a s h a r e h o l d i n g s tr u c tu r e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w w h e n y o u s ta r t e d t h is w a s s u p p o s e d
t o b e a t w o y e a r p r o j e c t , a m I c o r r e c t w h e n t h i s s t a r te d it w a s s u p p o s e d
t o b e c o m p l e t e d in a b o u t t w o y e a r s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is a t h r e e y e a r p r o j e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t – t h r e e y e a r p r o je c t. O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o y o u a r e s a y i n g E s ti n a w a s h a p p y t o

w a i t u n t il y e a r t h r e e b e fo r e i t r e a p e d a n y r e a l b e n e f it s fr o m th e p r o j e c t
because that is when you would bring them into the shareholding?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I s t h a t – w a s t h a t th e a r r a n g e m e n t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Wa s th a t a r r a n g e m e n t w r i t te n a n y w h e r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I u n d e r s t o o d i t t h a t t h e y s i g n e d
t h is a g r e e m e n t th a t d i d n o t c a r r y t h e w o r d i n g o f t h e fi r s t a g r e e m e n t
w h ic h m e a n s th e y u n d e r s to o d th is a g r e e m e n t w h e n t h e y e n t e r e d a n d
20

s ig n e d i t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d y o u s h a r e t h e o p i n i o n o f t h e S t a te

A t t o r n e y w i th t h e m a n d te ll t h e m w h y t h e y w o u ld h a v e t o w a i t t h e t h r e e
y e a r s b e f o r e th e y b e c a m e s h a r e h o l d e r s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e - w e d i d C h a ir w h e n w e s u b m i tt e d
t h e s e c o n d a g r e e m e n t . Th e y - t h e y w e r e a b l e t o - t o s e e t h a t i t w ill n o t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
b e in - in i t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y s t a r t e d p u t ti n g

m o n e y i n to t h e p r o j e c t i s c o n fi r m a ti o n o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y - I a m ju s t
tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u s a y i n g - is c o n fir m e d - w a s c o n fir m a t io n
t o y o u th a t th e y u n d e r s t o o d t h e t e r m s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m g o in g to e x p l o r e w i th y o u a l it t l e l a t e r
w h e n w e l o o k a t t h e m o n t h l y a n d t h e q u a r t e r l y r e p o r ts …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d a li n e i te m t h a t s a y s D ir e c t o r s f e e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o w e w il l ta l k a b o u t t h o s e . Yo u c a n t h i n k
a b o u t i t a n d I w i ll s h o w y o u t h e l i n e i te m a n d i n th e c o n te x t o f t h i s
d is c u s s io n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O f t h is d i s c u s s i o n , o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I w il l t h e n a s k y o u t o e x p l a i n w h a t t h o s e

D ir e c t o r s f e e s m ig h t b e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A l r i g h t . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

I have now understood 15.3 for services

d e li v e r e d b u t s tr i c tly a n d i t is t h e n e x t o n e t h a t I w a n te d u s t o lo o k a t is
in v o ic e s .

I th i n k s o m e w h e r e h e r e w e t a lk - y o u ta lk a b o u t i n v o i c e s

must be presented at - on a regular basis.

I n fa c t i t w a s 1 3 .5 .

We

d e a lt w i t h i n v o i c e s . I f y o u j u s t g o a p a g e b a c k .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s .

S o t h o s e s e r v i c e s d e li v e r e d y o u

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
c o u l d e a s il y a s s e s s b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d h a v e a n in v o ic e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In v o ic e . Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t b a c k e d u p t h e s e r v ic e s t h a t t h e y

were claiming for?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m g o o d . I f w e th e n l o o k a t C l a u s e 1 - 9 1 9 . 2 . I t i s u n d e r m i s c e l la n e o u s . I t is o n p a g e 3 - 5 - 1 . I t is - it r e a d s :
“ Es ti n a s h a ll n o t s u b - s u b c o n tr a c t w i th a n y p e r s o n
f o r t h e c a r r y i n g o u t o f a n y o f it s o b li g a ti o n s u n d e r
t h is a g r e e m e n t w i th o u t in e a c h c a s e t h e p r i o r

10

w r i t t e n c o n s e n t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h c o n s e n t
s h a l l n o t b e u n r e a s o n a b l y w i th h e l d o r d e l a y e d .”
T h a t is a n i m p o r t a n t c l a u s e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . Th a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is p a r t o f y o u r m o n i to r i n g a s I

u n d e r s t a n d it .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W e r e y o u a b le to g i v e e ffe c t t o t h i s

c la u s e ? W e r e y o u a b l e t o p u t i t i n t o o p e r a ti o n ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
there

was

any

discussion

we

C h a ir, I a m - I a m t h i n k i n g w h e th e r
h e ld

on

s u b c o n tr a c t in g

because

s u b c o n tr a c t in g m e a n s y o u a r e g e tt i n g s o m e b o d y t o - t o i m p l e m e n t a
p o r t i o n o n y o u r b e h a l f . I t is d i ffe r e n t fr o m a p p o i n ti n g a c o n t r a c t o r t o d o
t h a t . S o I - I m a y n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y w h e t h e r w e h a d a n y b o d y t o b e
s u b c o n tr a c t e d .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u - y o u s e e ju s t b y w a y o f e x a m p le

a g a in I w ill d e a l w i t h i t w h e n w e a r e d e a l in g w i th th e - w h a t I c a ll th e
fi n a n c i a l s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e a r e g o in g t o b e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e

f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. R e m e m b e r i n P h a s e 1 …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e d e a lt w it h O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 th e f e a s i b i li ty
s t u d y w a s c o n d u c te d a n d c o m p l e t e d …
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h e y w e r e a b l e to s h o w y o u t h e - a n d
w e h a v e a - a f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y h e r e i n t h e b u n d l e o f d o c u m e n t s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Th e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o c o n d u c te d t h a t

f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o I w o u ld w a n t t o k n o w a n d i t i s a g r o u p
o f p e o p l e w h o a r e - fr o m m y r e c o ll e c t io n n o t S o u th A f r ic a n . S o I w o u l d
w a n t t o k n o w fr o m y o u w h e t h e r 1 9 . 2 w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p l ic a b l e t o
20

t h o s e p a r tic u la r p e o p le c o n d u c t i n g t h e f e a s i b il it y s tu d y. S o a g a in y o u
m a y w a n t t o r e fl e c t o n th a t a n d w h e n w e g e t t o th e s p e c i fic e x a m p le
s a y t o m e o h I k n o w th e s e p e o p l e .
I s ig n e d o ff o n th e m c o m in g i n . T h e r e g a t e w a y i n v o ic e s I a m
g o i n g t o b e p r e s e n ti n g to y o u a n d y o u s a y o h I k n o w t h e s e p e o p l e . I
s ig n e d o ff o n t h e m g iv i n g u s p a r ti c u l a r o r g iv i n g t h e - t h e - E s t i n a

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
c e r t a i n i t e m s e v e n t h o u g h th e y w e r e s u b c o n tr a c te d . O k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: (Intervenes).
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h a t is my i n t e r e s t i n 1 9 .2 . I ju s t w a n t
y o u t o b e a r it in m i n d w h e n w e g e t t o l o o k i n g a t t h o s e i n v o i c e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: That …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Good.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t t h e p r in c ip le o f t h e m a tt e r is i n te r m s
o f 1 9 .2 s u b c o n t r a c t o r s h a d t o b e v e t te d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: (Intervenes).
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t i s t h e p r in c i p l e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t is r e c o r d e d h e r e .

I m p le m e n t a ti o n

M r T h a b e t h e i s w h a t w e a lw a y s c o m e b a c k t o a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y. S o
it w i ll b e i m p le m e n t a t i o n . H o w d i d w e i m p l e m e n t 1 9 .2 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : P o i n t tw o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

J a . W e t h e n l o o k a t ju s t o n e a s p e c t ; n o

le t u s l o o k a t M P T 1 3 w h i c h i s t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n y o u m a d e t o D - A - F- F t o
D A F F t h e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t . S o i t is 1 3 - fl a g 1 3 .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Are you moving away from the agreement?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh you are?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M a y b e b e f o r e t h a t M r Th a b e t h e s o m e o f t h e
q u e s t io n s th a t I m i g h t a s k y o u a b o u t t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t l i n k e d to

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
q u e s t io n s t h a t w e d e a l t w i th b e fo r e b u t i t h a s b e e n q u i t e s o m e ti m e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s s ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u s e e w e t a lk e d a fe w m i n u t e s a g o a b o u t t h e fa c t

t h a t t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u l d o n ly s h o w E s ti n a a s b e i n g t h e
d e p a r t m e n t’s p a r t n e r in t h i s p r o je c t . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b e c a u s e th e a g r e e m e n t w a s w i th E s ti n a . E x c u s e
m e - a n d - a n d i t d i d n o t s a y t h a t E s t in a w a s e n t e r i n g in t o t h e
agreement as an agent of - of Paras.
10

Yo u w o u l d k n o w th a t i t d id n o t

s a y t h a t e v e n t h o u g h th a t m ig h t h a v e s o m e le g a l is s u e s th a t m a y b e
o n ly l a w y e r s c a n - w o u l d l o o k a t.
I d o n o t w a n t t o b e u n f a ir t o y o u b u t i t w a s E s t i n a i n te r ms o f
the agreement.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e a g r e e m e n t . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

N o w I s e e t h a t - in t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t

C l a u s e 8 . 1 .1 w h ic h i s a t p a g e 3 - 4 - 5 th e p a r ti e s s a y :
“ Es ti n a w a r r a n t s t h a t i t is t h e c o u n te r p a r t o f P a r a s .”
I pause to say whatever counterpart means.
“ …i t is th e c o u n t e r p a r t o f P a r a s a n d t h e s o le
20

p r o v i d e r fo r t h e s e r v i c e s a n d t h e p r o je c t .”
T h a t s e e m s to s u g g e s t t o m e - a n d I w o u l d l ik e y o u r c o m m e n t
- t h a t s e e m s t o s u g g e s t t o m e t h a t t h a t c l a u s e m e a n t t h a t th e
d e p a r t m e n t c o u l d n o t i f s e r v ic e s th a t Es t in a w a s s u p p o s e d t o p r o v i d e in
t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t c o u l d n o t g o to s o m e b o d y e ls e . I n o t h e r w o r d s
y o u c o u l d n o t g o to P a r a s a n d s a y y o u k n o w y o u p e o p l e a r e n o t

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p r o v i d in g s e r v i c e s - th e s e r v i c e s - th e a g r e e d s e r v i c e s s a ti s fa c t o r il y
b e c a u s e y o u h a d s i g n e d a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t s a i d E s ti n a w a s t h e s o l e
provider of those services.
P a r a s w o u l d s a y n o w e m ig h t h a v e s o m e a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h
P a r a s b u t y o u c a n n o t s u e u s o r y o u c a n n o t c o m e to u s . D o y o u w i s h t o
comment on that?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a . Th a n k - th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e -

t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t I h a d o n th a t s ta t e m e n t w a s th a t w e e x p e c t e d a
c e r t a i n le v e l o f - o f d e l iv e r a b l e s in t h e p r o j e c t t h a t s h o u ld b e c e r t i fi e d
10

b y P a r a s t o s a y. W e - w e w i ll b e a b le t o d e li v e r w h a t w e h a d a g r e e d
o n , o n t h i s p r o je c t in t e r m s o f t h e s t a n d a r d .
I t - i t w o u l d t h e n b e a p r o b le m i f w e b r in g s o m e b o d y e ls e a n d
s a y c o n s tr u c t o n e , t w o , th r e e a n d t h e n th e y c o m e b a c k a n d s a y b u t th a t
t h a t d o e s m e e t o u r s ta n d a r d . T h e n i t b e c o m e s o u r p r o b le m . H e n c e h e n c e w e s a y E s t i n a b e i n g a c o u n te r p a r t w i ll a l w a y s b e d ir e c t e d b y
P a r a s t o s a y to m e e t o u r s t a n d a r d th is i s h o w i t s h o u l d b e d o n e .
S o t h e y c a n n o t c o m e b a c k a n d s a y w e h a v e c o n s tr u c t e d t h i s
r o l e b e c a u s e w e d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d h o w i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e .
H e n c e - h e n c e w e s a y t h e n th e y s h o u ld b e t h e s o l e p r o v id e r s o t h a t w e

20

- w e s h o u l d n o t h a v e a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , b u t y o u s e e th e s o l e p r o v i d e r i n te r m s o f t h a t

c la u s e o f t h e s e r v i c e s a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t.

Yo u m i g h t h a v e a d i ff e r e n t

u n d e r s t a n d in g . T h e s o le p r o v id e r i s s a i d t o b e E s t i n a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

S o w h a t I a m - w h a t I a m p u t ti n g t o y o u is i t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
s e e m s t o m e t h e r e f o r e th a t i f a n y t h i n g w e n t w r o n g w it h t h e s e r v i c e s
t h a t E s ti n a w a s s u p p o s e d t o p r o v i d e to t h e d e p a r t m e n t i n t e r m s o f th is
p r o j e c t t h e o n l y p e o p l e t h a t y o u c o u l d le g i ti m a t e ly r e a l ly c o m p l a i n to
w o u ld b e E s ti n a b e c a u s e i t w a s E s ti n a w h o w a s t h e s o l e p r o v i d e r.
T h e y w e r e n o t th e s o l e p r o v i d e r - th e y w e r e n o t th e p r o v i d e r
o r c o p r o v i d e r o f t h e s e r v ic e s w i t h P a r a s . Th e y w e r e th e s o l e p r o v id e r
of the services.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u - y o u a c c e p t t h a t?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . W e - w e a c c e p t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Chair

a ls o

in

-

in

th e

e a r li e r

d is c u s s io n w e h a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Wa s t h a t t h is - t h is w a s d o n e s o f o r f o r li t i g a t io n p u r p o s e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Because if we - if we would have

brought in Paras …
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In t o th e a g r e e m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e n i n t e r n a t io n a l i s s u e s t h e n k ic k s

in .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , b u t th e r e is n o th in g w r o n g w it h i n t e r n a ti o n a l

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
is s u e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w y o u a r e n o t a la w y e r b u t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t i f y o u n e e d t o i n v o l v e i n t e r n a ti o n a l is s u e s t o

p r o t e c t y o u r s e l f a n d to p r o t e c t ta x p a y e r s m o n e y w h y n o t b r i n g i n t h o s e
in t e r n a t io n a l is s u e s b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r w e d is c u s s e d t h is e a r li e r w i t h i n
t h e c o n t e x t o f th e f a c t t h a t y o u d i d n o t e n s u r e th a t t h e r e w a s p r o p e r
c h e c k i n g o f w h a t E s ti n a b u s in e s s w a s .
M a y b e I a m i n a c c u r a t e in - i n p u t t in g t h i s - p u t t in g i t th a t w a y

10

b u t e v e n i ts fi n a n c i a l s i tu a ti o n w a s n o t c h e c k e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I t h i n k l a s t t i m e . It w a s r e v e a le d t h a t I t h i n k o n
t h e d a y o n w h ic h t h e y s i g n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t o r a r o u n d t h e d a y w h e n
t h e y s i g n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t th e y h a d o n l y a b o u t R 1 6 , 0 0 in t h e b a n k
account.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o i t is i n t h a t c o n te x t b e c a u s e a s I s a i d p r e v i o u s ly

p a r t o f w h a t o n e i s lo o k i n g a t is t o w h a t e x t e n t w a s t h is p r o j e c t h a n d l e d
20

in a m a n n e r th a t p r o te c te d t a x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y i n li g h t o f w h a t w e k n o w
h a p p e n e d . S o - s o t h i s q u e s t io n t h a t th e s o l e p r o v i d e r o f t h e s e r v ic e s
w a s Es t in a a n d t h a t is p u t i n t h e a g r e e m e n t m e a n s t h a t f o r e x a m p le t o
t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e d i ffi c u l ti e s w i t h t h e ir s e r v i c e s .
Yo u a r e s t u c k w i t h t h e m a n d i f y o u s p e a k t o P a r a s t h e y s p e a k
t o y o u a s a fa v o u r if t h e y w a n t to b u t t h e r e is n o a g r e e m e n t s i g n e d th a t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
c o m p e l s t h e m t o c o m e i n i f Es t in a fa il s t o p r o v i d e s e r v ic e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : And you accept that?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . I - I a c c e p t C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e I h a d v e r y li m i t e d k n o w l e d g e
…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In - in d r a ft i n g o f a g r e e m e n ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t I t o o k it t h a t i t w a s fi n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id - a n d - a n d t h e - a n d th e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s d id w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h e d r a f ti n g o f th is a g r e e m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

Yo u w il l - y o u w i ll

remember that after the …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t o n e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e f ir s t a g r e e m e n t t h e S t a te L a w y e r s
r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e y a s s i s t i n d r a f ti n g o f th i s o n e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

O f c o u r s e - o f c o u r s e w h a t t h e l a w y e r d r a f ts

d e p e n d s a ls o o n w h a t h e o r s h e i s t o ld b y t h e c li e n t …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f c o u r s e w h a t s h e is - s h e o r h e is t o ld b y th e
c li e n t a ls o d e p e n d s o n w h a t q u e s ti o n s h e o r s h e a s k e d t h e c l ie n t i n
t e r m s o f i n fo r m a ti o n b u t - b u t i t s e e m s t o m e a n d I ju s t w a n t y o u t o
c o m m e n t . I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t y o u - y o u - o n e o f t h e th i n g s y o u o u g h t
t o h a v e s a i d t o t h e m i s y o u k n o w if w e a r e g o in g to e n t e r i n t o a
c o n tr a c t w it h - w i t h Es t in a th e s e a r e t h e p r o t e c t io n s t h a t w e n e e d to
h a v e in - in t h e a g r e e m e n t a s fa r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d .
H o w y o u p u t th e m i n t h e l e g a l la n g u a g e m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g
e ls e b u t th is i s w h a t - w h a t I w a n t a n d y o u - t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e s a i d
10

a c t u a ll y a s f a r a s th e d e p a r t m e n t is c o n c e r n e d i t is P a r a s t h a t is r e a ll y
o u r p a r t n e r. E s ti n a is - h a s a n a r r a n g e m e n t w i th P a r a s b u t a s fa r a s w e
a r e c o n c e r n e d i t is P a r a s t h a t w e w a n t t o r e a ll y p a r t n e r w i t h a n d h o ld
li a b l e i n c a s e s o m e t h i n g g o e s w r o n g . Yo u - y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I - I a g r e e w i th y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I n - in - w h a t w a s b r o u g h t to m y

a tt e n ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Wa s t h a t i n th e fir s t a g r e e m e n t w h e r e
20

we had brought in Paras.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Wa s il le g a l …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because at my level I did not have a
d e l e g a ti o n …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

To

sign

an

agreement

w i th

an

in t e r n a t io n a l p a r t n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o t h a t - th a t is w h y th e n i t w o u l d b e
ill e g a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To b r i n g i n P a r a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In t o th e a g r e e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H e n c e t h e n i t w a s r e d u c e d to a n

a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d E s ti n a .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

W h a t - w h a t s h o u l d h a v e - t h e q u e s t io n t h a t

s h o u l d h a v e a r i s e n - m a y b e I s h o u ld n o t p u t i t li k e t h i s b u t th e r e m a y
b e a n a r g u m e n t th a t s a y s th e q u e s ti o n t h a t s h o u l d h a v e a r is e n in y o u r
m i n d a n d /o r t h e m in d o f t h e la w y e r s o r t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s i s i f th e
in t e n t io n w a s t o h a v e P a r a s a s a p a r t n e r a n d t h e r e is - t h e r e i s n o t
g o i n g t o b e a n a g r e e m e n t w i th P a r a s …
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON :

H o w d o w e m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e e n t it y w i t h w h o m w e

e n t e r i n to a n a g r e e m e n t m e e t s t h e s a m e s t a n d a r d s t h a t m a d e u s
c o m f o r t a b l e to s e l e c t P a r a s a s a p a r tn e r ? L e t u s l o o k i n t o th o s e t h i n g s
a n d o n ly w h e n w e a r e s a t is fi e d a b o u t t h o s e t h i n g s d o w e th e n g o a h e a d
a n d s ig n a n a g r e e m e n t .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
P a r t o f th is m i g h t b e li n k e d t o w h a t w e d is c u s s e d a lr e a d y b u t
y o u m ig h t w is h t o s a y s o m e t h i n g .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a i r.

I - I would want to add

a n y th in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u - y o u a r e in a g r e e m e n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

O h I t h i n k t h e r e is j u s t o n e m o r e t h a t I - o n e m o r e

q u e s t io n t h a t I w a n t t o r a is e .

I s a w s o m e th in g q u i t e s t r a n g e h e r e i n

p a r a g r a p h - in C l a u s e 9 . 1 o f t h e a g r e e m e n t . N a m e l y t h a t :
“ Es ti n a s h a ll m o n i to r i ts p e r f o r m a n c e i n t h e d e liv e r y
o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d s h a l l i m p l e m e n t a p p r o p r ia t e
m o n i t o r in g a n d m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s i n r e s p e c t
o f th e p r o j e c t in c l u d i n g a n y r e a s o n a b l e m o n i t o r in g
p r o c e d u r e a s t h e p a r ti e s m a y - m a y fr o m t i m e t o
ti m e a g r e e .”
T h e n 9 .2 :
“ O n t h e n o ti f ic a ti o n o f a n y f a i l u r e o r c o m p la i n t
20

r e g a r d in g th e q u a l i ty o f it s p e r f o r m a n c e E s ti n a s h a ll
a tt e n d

to

such

appropriate

to

n o ti fi c a t io n
the

n a tu r e

w it h
of

the

the

a g e n ts

f a i lu r e

or

c o m p la i n a n t .”
S o t h e m o s t o b v i o u s q u e s ti o n a b o u t 9 .1 is w h y - w h y w a s
E s ti n a t o b e th e o n e to m o n it o r i ts o w n p e r f o r m a n c e ?

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t - b u t m a y b e to fa ir t o y o u I m u s t p o i n t o u t th a t

n i n e - C l a u s e 9 . 4 h a s a c l a u s e a b o u t m o n i to r i n g w h e r e i t p l a c e s th e
o b li g a ti o n o n t h e d e p a r t m e n t . It s a y s :
“ T h e d e p a r t m e n t s h a ll m o n i to r th e p e r fo r m a n c e o f
E s ti n a a n d m a y a t a n y ti m e i n a d d i t io n to t h e r e p o r t
in C l a u s e 3 . 3 r e q u e s t a n y f u r th e r in f o r m a ti o n .”
S o o n t h e o n e h a n d t h e r e i s a c l a u s e th a t s a y s E s ti n a w i ll
m o n i t o r i t s o w n p e r f o r m a n c e w h i c h I fi n d s tr a n g e a n d th e n o n th e o t h e r
10

t h e r e is a c l a u s e th a t s a y s t h e d e p a r t m e n t s h a l l m o n it o r a ls o . A r e - a r e
y o u a b l e t o t h r o w a n y l i g h t o n t h is ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . Th a n k - t h a n k s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e - w h a t w e i n te n d e d h e r e w a s t o

s a y t o E s t in a y o u m u s t h a v e y o u r o w n i n t e r n a l m o n i t o r i n g p r o c e s s e s .
T h e - t h e r e a r e in s ta n c e s i n - i n a g r ic u l t u r e w h e r e t h e d e p a r t m e n t is is r e s p o n s i b l e fo r - f o r m o n i t o r i n g c o m p l ia n c e .

O u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty is

m o n i t o r c o m p li a n c e . N o w i n i n s t a n c e s w h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON :
20

W h e n y o u s a y c o m p l i a n c e i s t h a t a s o p p o s e d to

performance?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: As opposed to performance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d d o y o u w a n t to d e a l w i th t h e d is ti n c ti o n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . W e w a n t to d e a l w i th t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

So that we - we do not go there and

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
m o n i t o r i m p le m e n t a ti o n a n d t h e n w e c o m e a n d m o n i t o r c o m p li a n c e a t
t h e s a m e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o w e - w e - h e n c e w e h a v e s a i d le t
t h e m m o n i to r - d o th e m o n i t o r i n g o f t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e p r o j e c t .
W e w i ll c o m e a n d m o n i to r c o m p l ia n c e b e c a u s e i n t e r m s o f t h e A c t th e r e
a r e is s u e s t h e d e p a r t m e n t m u s t m o n i t o r c o m p li a n c e o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h Ac t a r e y o u t a lk in g a b o u t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e - t h e A g r i c u l tu r a l A c t .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Act.
MR MBANA PETER THABTHE:

Ye s .

S o w e h a v e d e l e g a ti o n s to b e

r e s p o n s i b l e in - i n t h e e n ti r e i n d u s tr y o f a g r i c u l tu r e t o d o m o n i to r i n g o n
c e r t a i n a s p e c ts .

S o t h o s e - t h o s e - y o u d o n o t w a n t to m i n g le t h o s e

two …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

And - and you do the job and you

c o m e b a c k t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y a n d s a y n o w I a m c o m in g t o m o n i t o r
c o m p li a n c e . S o w e s a i d d o y o u r m o n i t o r i n g i n t e r n a lly. W e w i ll a l s o d o
o u r m o n i to r i n g in t e r m s o f y o u r c o m p l i a n c e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l c o m p li a n c e w o u l d r e l a te t o w h a t ? To s t a t u t e - to
t h e p e r fo r m a n c e o f s ta t u to r y o b li g a t i o n s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : L i k e - li k e y o u - y o u w i ll h a v e to h a v e
a - a n e n v ir o n m e n t i m p a c t a s s e s s m e n t w h o w i ll c o m e a n d s a y f o r y o u to

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
b e a b l e t o d o t h i s d o y o u h a v e a P F M A . E x c u s e m e C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c e r t i fic a t e f o r ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A c e r ti fi c a te t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n g iv e n
p e r m is s io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : F o r y o u t o b e d r a w in g w a t e r fr o m t h i s
dam. Do you have …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u g o t a lic e n c e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : D o y o u h a v e a lic e n c e ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h o s e t h in g s . W e th e n c o m e a n d d o
t h e m o n i t o r in g .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh. So - so when you say the department was going
t o m o n it o r c o m p li a n c e t h o s e a r e t h e t y p e s o f t h i n g s y o u a r e t a l k i n g
a b o u t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: We - we are talking about, yes.
CHAIRPERSON :

And

in

terms

of

the

monitoring

of

E s t i n a ’s

p e r f o r m a n c e o f i t s o b li g a t io n s o t h e r th a n c o m p l i a n c e w i th s t a t u to r y
r e q u ir e m e n t s .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s g o in g to m o n i to r i t s o w n p e r fo r m a n c e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s a n d r e m e m b e r t h e y w il l t h e n s ti ll
g iv e u s a m o n t h l y r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e n o v e r a n d a b o v e th a t w e w i ll

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
m o n i t o r th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d a ls o m o n i t o r t h e c o m p li a n c e a t

t h e s a m e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o w e d o b o t h b u t th e y m u s t g iv e u s
a r e p o r t o f t h e ir o w n m o n i to r i n g t o s a y t h i s is w h a t - b e c a u s e w e - w e
d o n o t w a n t t h e m a t a p a r t ic u l a r s t a g e t o c o m e a n d c la i m ig n o r a n c e t h a t
w e d i d n o t k n o w.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H e n c e i f - i f t h e r e is a n y f a i lu r e t h a t

t h e y p ic k . T h e n th e y m u s t b e a b le t o - t o a d d r e s s i t i m m e d i a t e ly.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll m y - m y c o n c e r n w i t h t h e id e a o r n o ti o n t h a t a

p a r t y t o th e a g r e e m e n t is g i v e n th e o b li g a t io n to m o n it o r it s e l f a s
o p p o s e d to o r is - is g i v e n t h e r i g h t t o m o n i t o r i ts e l f a n d th a t r i g h t n o t
b e i n g g i v e n t o th e o th e r p a r ty is th a t I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y th a t
w o u ld b e s o .
I m e a n i f I e m p lo y y o u a s a - a s s o m e b o d y to d o s o m e w o r k i n
m y c o m p a n y. I m o n i t o r y o u . Yo u k n o w b e c a u s e I m u s t s a t is fy m y s e l f
20

t h a t y o u a r e d o i n g th e j o b p r o p e r ly a n d w h e n I a m s a ti s f i e d i t i s fi n e . If
I a m n o t s a t is fi e d I r a is e i s s u e s w i th y o u a n d - a n d I d o n o t r e ly o n - I
d o n o t g i v e y o u th e r ig h t to m o n i t o r y o u r s e lf .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e a n d - a n d h e r e it s e e m s th a t th e d e p a r t m e n t
w a s g iv in g E s t i n a t h e r i g h t to m o n i to r i ts o w n p e r f o r m a n c e a n d - a n d

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h a t s e e m s to m e t o s u g g e s t t h a t i f y o u tr y t o m o n i t o r t h e ir p e r f o r m a n c e
t h e y w o u l d b e e n ti tl e d to s a y h a n g o n .

Yo u a r e i n b r e a c h o f th e

agreement. We are supposed to monitor ourselves …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON : And that sounds strange to me.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g - m a y b e
le t m e u s e t h e G o v e r n m e n t s c e n a r i o .

E a c h d e p a r t m e n t w ill h a v e i t s

o w n m o n it o r in g u n i t t o m o n i t o r i ts e lf o v e r a n d a b o v e th e e x t e r n a l
m o n i t o r in g t h a t c o m e s i n . S o th is - t h is y o u d o s o th a t y o u a r e a b l e t o
10

p ic k c h a l l e n g e e a r li e r y o u r s e lv e s . N o w t h a t i s w h a t w e w e r e i n t e n d i n g
t h e m t o d o . S o th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t - t h a t is w h a t y o u - y o u w a n te d to d o ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

They must then do monitoring

in t e r n a ll y i f t h e r e a r e p r o b l e m s t h e y a r e a b l e to p ic k t h e m e a r ly.

So

t h a t w h o e v e r c o m e s a n d d o t h e m o n i to r i n g t h e y a r e a w a r e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A lr e a d y a n d th e y a r e a b l e to s a y t h is
is h o w w e a r e g o i n g t o r e s o lv e i t .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

Hm.

W e ll I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t a n y b o d y w o u ld d o

t h e ir - w h a t y o u c a ll i n t e r n a l m o n it o r in g w it h o r w i t h o u t a n y c l a u s e
because you want your own performance to be in accordance with your
c o m m i t m e n ts a n d t h e a g r e e m e n t. Yo u w a n t to p e r f o r m w e l l . Yo u d o n o t
w a n t t h e o t h e r p a r ty to a c c u s e y o u o f f a i li n g t o p e r fo r m a s r e q u ir e d b u t
it m a y b e t h a t f r o m y o u r s id e if y o u s a y w e w a n t t o s e e m e c h a n is m s
t h a t y o u p u t i n p l a c e t h a t w i ll h e lp y o u t o d e te c t a s e a r ly a s p o s s ib le

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h e ir p r o b l e m s i n p e r f o r m a n c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In p e r fo r m a n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t m i g h t b e f i n e . T h e o n ly q u e s t io n w o u l d b e t h a t
m u s t n o t t a k e a w a y y o u r r ig h t t o - t o m o n i t o r. M y c o n c e r n is th a t fr o m
w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d i t s e e m s to m e th a t C l a u s e 8 - 4 w h ic h s e e m s to t a lk
a b o u t t h e d e p a r t m e n t ’s r ig h t to m o n i t o r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To m o n i t o r.
CHAIRPERSON :

Fr o m w h a t y o u s a y m a y b e i t c o u l d b e r e la t in g t o

c o m p li a n c e b u t I s e e t h a t i t d o e s s a y p e r f o r m a n c e .
10

It d o e s n o t s a y

c o m p li a n c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s e e t h a t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s . C h a ir w e d o b o t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Because - because by the Act we

h a v e t o d o c e r t a i n c o m p l ia n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d - a n d t h e r e is w o r k th a t w e d o …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th a t w e a l s o h a v e to d o c o m p li a n c e

o n . S o m e o f t h e m m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n m a n d a t e d b y t h e Ac t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t w e s t ill h a v e t o d o t h o s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t m o n it o r in g .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON :

But - but maybe I mus t take your evidence to - to

a m o u n t t o th is t h a t a l t h o u g h t h e r e a r e t w o c l a u s e s ta lk in g a b o u t
m o n i t o r in g p e r f o r m a n c e a n d o n e s a y s E s ti n a w i ll m o n i t o r i ts o w n
performance

and

th e

other

says

the

department

shall

monitor

p e r f o r m a n c e w h a t a c t u a ll y w a s s o u g h t t o b e d o n e is th e d e p a r t m e n t w il l
r e ta i n t h e o v e r a ll r ig h t t o m o n i t o r p e r f o r m a n c e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t i n t e r n a l ly E s ti n a s h o u l d a ls o m o n i t o r i ts o w n

p e r f o r m a n c e s o t h a t m a y b e th e y c a n p ic k u p t h in g s e v e n b e fo r e t h e
10

d e p a r t m e n t p ic k s t h e m u p . I t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s
n o t g o i n g t o m o n i to r E s t in a ’s p e r f o r m a n c e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k - I th i n k t h o s e w e r e t h e t w o q u e s t io n s I w a n t e d
t o - t w o a r e a s o n w h ic h I w a n te d to a s k q u e s ti o n s , j a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t h a s g iv e n m e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to ju s t g o

20

b a c k to t w o is s u e s i n t h e s a m e a g r e e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W i t h y o u r le a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I f w e j u s t v e r y b r i e fl y g o b a c k t o p a g e

3 3 8 it ’s s ti ll t h e a g r e e m e n t b u t w h a t I ’ m l o o k i n g a t is c la u s e 1 .2 p a g e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
3 3 8 , 1 . 2 g iv e s u s t h e a d d r e s s o f Es t in a , B l o c k A , fir s t p r o g r e s s in w h ic h
1 4 4 C a t h e r i n e S tr e e t, S a n d t o n , t h e q u e s t i o n i s w e r e y o u a w a r e a t t h e
ti m e t h a t 1 4 4 C a th e r in e S tr e e t , S a n d t o n , t h a t a d d r e s s i s t h e a d d r e s s o f
a n u m b e r o f e n t i ti e s t h a t a r e a s s o c i a te d w i t h t h e G u p t a e n te r p r is e s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I m a y n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r e a t th a t

ti m e C h a ir, a l th o u g h I’ v e b e e n to t h e s e o ff ic e s , t h e r e l a ti o n d u r i n g th a t
ti m e w a s n o t c le a r b u t n o w I a m a w a r e C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d th e r e l a ti o n b e tw e e n E s ti n a a n d i n

P a r t ic u l a r K a m a l Va s r a m a n d th e G u p t a e n t e r p r is e s , I’ ll p u t i t a s
10

g e n e r a l ly a s t h a t , w a s n o t c l e a r a t t h a t t i m e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A t th a t ti m e C h a ir.
M r T h a b e t h e t h e n th e l a s t q u e s t io n o n

t h e a g r e e m e n t is c l a u s e 1 0 , c o n f id e n ti a l i ty i t’s o n p a g e 3 4 6 . W h e n th e
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y i n v e s t ig a to r s fr o m E N S tr ie d to h a v e a d is c u s s io n
w i t h M r K a m a l Va s r a m w h o w a s t h e s o l e d ir e c to r a t t h e ti m e o f E s t in a ,
w h e n t h e E N S i n v e s t ig a t o r s a n d th e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y i n v e s ti g a t o r s
tr i e d t o ta lk t o M r Va s r a m a b o u t t h i s a g r e e m e n t , a b o u t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p
b e t w e e n E s t i n a a n d th e d e p a r t m e n t , y o u r d e p a r t m e n t , M r Va s r a m
r e fu s e d t o s p e a k w i t h t h e m b e c a u s e h e r e l i e d o n th is c o n fi d e n t ia li t y
20

c la u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d m a t t e r s . H e s a id a t th e t i m e t h a t h e h a d t o g e t
p e r m is s io n f r o m y o u . D o y o u r e c a ll h i m e v e r c o m i n g b a c k t o y o u t o s a y
t o y o u , t h e r e a r e th e s e p a r tic u l a r p e o p le fr o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y w h o
w a n t t o s p e a k t o m e , c a n y o u r e le a s e m e f r o m c l a u s e 1 0 o f o u r
a g r e e m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

C h a ir I h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d t h e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
r e q u e s t fr o m E s t i n a a l th o u g h I r e m e m b e r d i s c u s s in g t h i s w i t h th e
in v e s t i g a t o r s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s m y j u n i o r h a s j u s t p o i n t e d m e t o

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m M r Va s r a m o n t h is i s s u e a n d m a y b e f o r y o u r
in f o r m a ti o n i t m ig h t b e u s e fu l j u s t to r e a d w h a t h is r e s p o n s e w a s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

O k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

H e is w r i t in g t h i s l e tt e r t o a M is s

J a c o b s a n d h e c o p i e s M r Th e le w h o y o u k n o w c a m e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e
h e r e o n s o m e o f th e s e m a t te r s a n d h e s a y s ,
10

“ We s t r o n g ly o b j e c t to t h e c o n t e n t o f y o u r m a il w h ic h s e e m s t o
i m p ly t h a t w e a r e d e li b e r a t e ly n o t c o o p e r a t in g w i th y o u . A t
p l e a s e n o te t h a t w e h a v e a lr e a d y
consider it prudent to
a p p r o v a l fr o m

c o m m u n ic a te d t o y o u t h a t w e d o n o t

r e s p o n d t o y o u r r e q u e s t i n th e a b s e n c e o f a n

the department to do so.

c o n fi d e n ti a lly

t h e o u ts e t

clause

in

the

T h i s is i n li n e w it h th e

agreement,

s ig n e d

w i th

the

d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h c a n b e v e r i f ie d w i t h t h e d e p a r t m e n t .

Yo u r

c o n ti n u e d i n s is t e n c e o n b r e a k i n g p r o t o c o l a p p e a r s t o b e
m o t iv a t e d b y a n a g e n d a th a t w e d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d a n d u n d e r
the
20

c ir c u m s t a n c e s ,

anything

we

say

w i ll

p r o b a b ly

be

m is c o n s tr u e d . A l l t h e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d in f o r m a t io n
in r e l a ti o n t o th is p r o j e c t is a v a i l a b le w i t h th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d
if t h e r e a r e a n y g a p s i n th e in f o r m a ti o n w e a r e m o r e t h a n
w i ll in g to a s s is t y o u , p r o v i d e d t h a t t h i s is d o n e w i th t h e a c ti v e
p a r t ic ip a ti o n

of

department

o ff ic i a ls .

This

is

an

i n te r -

d e p a r t m e n ta l m a t te r w h ic h i n w h ic h o u r p a r t ic ip a ti o n i n a n y

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
f o r m , i f w a r r a n t e d c a n o n ly b e i n i ti a t e d i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f
d e p a r t m e n t o ff ic i a ls o r a t t h e v e r y l e a s t w i t h t h e i r a p p r o v a l ,
b e s t r e g a r d s , K a m a l Va s r a m ” .
S o h e n c e th e q u e s ti o n , m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e r e p o r t o f M r
Te l e

and

Co. was

th a t y o u

did

not release

Va s r a m

fr o m

t h is

c o n fi d e n ti a li ty c l a u s e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir th e in v e s ti g a t i o n t e a m d id

d is c u s s t h e m a t t e r w i t h m e , r e q u e s ti n g t h a t I g i v e t h e m p e r m is s io n t o
in v e s t i g a t e , th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g w a s t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n
10

o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t.

W e s a i d – b e c a u s e t h e y n e e d e d a n e x c l u s iv e

in v e s t i g a t io n w it h o u t th e p a r ti c i p a t io n o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e t h e r e
y o u a r e g o in g t o in v e s t i g a t e a t h ir d p a r t y.

N o w i f y o u i n v e s ti g a te a

t h ir d p a r ty w i t h t h e e x c lu s i o n o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t , n o w th a t I c a n ’ t g iv e
t h a t p e r m is s i o n I w o u l d o n ly g i v e p e r m i s s i o n t o d o th e in v e s ti g a t io n i n
t h e i n c l u s i o n o f th e d e p a r t m e n t , th a t ’s w h e r e w e d i ffe r e d . I s a i d w e ’v e
a g r e e d t o d o th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n b e c a u s e t h i s i n v e s t ig a t io n is b e i n g d o n e
t o th e d e p a r t m e n t i f y o u p r o c e e d t o d o t h a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n o f Es t in a ,
in c l u s i v e o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t I h a v e n o p r o b l e m , th a t w e ’ d a g r e e d b u t
t h e y w a n t e d a n e x c lu s iv e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t o w h ic h – o f w h i c h I d i d n o t
20

h a v e t h e p o w e r t o s a y, g o a n d i n v e s ti g a t e a t h i r d p a r ty.

It had to be

li m i te d to th e a p p l ic a t i o n o f th e p r o je c t, t h a t is th e s i t u a ti o n th a t w e
had.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e l l t h e r e p o r t – ju s t to ti d y t h is i s s u e

u p , th e r e p o r t t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d b y t h o s e i n v e s ti g a to r s is i n t h e r e p o r ts
b u n d l e C h a i r m a n a t p a g e 3 4 y o u m a y w is h to lo o k a t i t l a t e r a n d th is i s

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
b u n d l e B – r e p o r ts b u n d l e B , i t ’s u n d e r t h e – it ’s u n d e r w i tn e s s
in t e r v ie w s … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

D o y o u t h i n k i t w o u l d b e n e c e s s a r y to l o o k a t i t o r

n o t n e c e s s a r i ly ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

C h a ir m a n i f – w i th y o u r l e a v e I ’l l s i m p l y

r e a d t h is in t o th e r e c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t’s f i n e ja .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u a n d i t r e a d s – i f y o u ’ d l ik e

t o I d o n ’t m i n d w a i t in g fo r y o u t o f in d i t … . [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s i f y o u w is h t o l o o k a t i t , i t’s fi n e , ju s t f o r m y

p u r p o s e s ja .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

R e p o r ts b u n d l e a n d i t s h o u l d b e B , li t tl e

b a n d i t’s i n b a n d t h e p a g e i s 3 4 a n d th e p a r a g r a p h is p a r a g r a p h 2 . 3 i t
d e a ls w i th w it n e s s in t e r v i e w s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

2 . 3 . 1 a s y o u c a n s e e Mr T h a b e t h e s a y s ,

“ Af t e r o u r fi r s t i n t e r v i e w w i t h Mr T h a b e t h e w e a p p r o a c h e d
E s ti n a ’s d ir e c t o r, M r K a m a l Va s r a m t o d is c u s s th e p r o j e c t w i t h
him.
20

M r Va s r a m is E s ti n a ’s o n l y d ir e c to r.

Mr Va s r a m w o u l d

n o t a g r e e t o a n i n t e r v i e w w i t h E N S a n d s t a te d t h a t E s ti n a w a s
b o u n d t o c o n fi d e n ti a li ty i n t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t s ig n e d w i t h
the department.

W e r e q u e s te d th a t Mr Va s r a m p r o d u c e t h e

a g r e e m e n t g i v i n g r is e t o h is d u ty o f c o n fi d e n ti a li ty.

Mr

Va s r a m i g n o r e d o u r r e q u e s t a n d w e w e r e n o t p r o v i d e d w i t h a
c o p y o f th e a g r e e m e n t .

2 . 3 . 2 , a t o u r s e c o n d in t e r v i e w w it h

Page 43 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M r T h a b e th e w e r e q u e s t e d h i m t o w a iv e c o n fi d e n t ia li ty a n d
f a c i li t a te a m e e t in g b e t w e e n E N S a n d M r Va s r a m . T h i s is h e
i m p o r t a n t p a r t p l e a s e Mr T h a b e t h e , Mr T h a b e th e r e fu s e d t o
a s s is t E N S a n d s ta t e d th a t w e s h o u l d c o n d u c t o u r o w n
in v e s t i g a t io n w i t h o u t h is a s s is t a n c e . M r T h a b e th e s t a te d t h a t
h e w a s i n c o n ta c t w it h M r Va s r a m a n d t h a t h e w a s a w a r e th a t
M r Va s r a m r e f u s e d t o m e e t w i t h u s .

He was nevertheless

u n w il li n g to fa c i l i t a t e a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n E N S a n d Es t in a .
T h e r e a f te r E N S a g a i n r e q u e s t e d a n in t e r v ie w w i th Mr Va s r a m
10

b u t h e r e f u s e d to a t te n d a n i n t e r v ie w.

As a result, we were

n o t a b l e t o i n t e r v i e w M r Va s r a m / E s ti n a in t h i s in v e s t i g a t io n t o
obtain

t h e ir

p e r s p e c ti v e

and

explanations

r e g a r d in g

the

p r o j e c t . T h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n E N S a n d Mr Va s r a m is
a tt a c h e d a s e x h i b it 1 8 ” ,
T h a t ’s t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e I r e a d t o y o u .

W h a t’s y o u r fi n a l

comment maybe on this, I know we’ve dealt with it previously but just
h a v i n g g iv e n it , a t l e a s t c o n t e x t i n t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :
e x p l a i n in g
20

that

they

needed

C h a ir t h is i s e x a c t ly w h a t I w a s
an

department which I could not do.

e x c l u s iv e

interview

outside

the

W e ’v e a g r e e d t h a t w e c o u l d d o t h e

in t e r v ie w o f E s ti n a w i th t h e d e p a r t m e n t , s o w e ’d b r in g t h e m i n a n d w e ’ d
a l l s i t a n d t h e n th e y w i ll d o th e i n te r v i e w.

S o w e c o u l d f a c il it a t e b u t

t h e y w a n te d a n e x c l u s iv e , th e m a n d Es t i n a , w it h o u t t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
T h a t w a s t h e d i ffi c u l ty t h a t I h a d , th a t I c o u l d n o t g i v e p e r mi s s io n t o
t h e m t o g o a n d d o a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o a p r i v a t e p a r ty.

Page 44 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Why not?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Because I did not know what they

w o u ld – th a t ’s w h y w e s a i d w e w a n t e d – w e ’ d s e n d a l a w y e r o f t h e
d e p a r t m e n t t o g o w i t h t h e m a n d s i t w i th E s ti n a .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t w h y w o u ld y o u n e e d t o s e n d a la w y e r o f t h e

department Mr Thabethe?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

C h a i r w e h a d s i g n e d a d is c l o s u r e

a g r e e m e n t , t h e y h a d s a i d to u s a s a p r iv a t e c o m p a n y t h e y h a v e i s s u e s
t o p r o t e c t w h i c h t h e y w o u l d n o t w a n t to b e e x p o s e d w h e n w e n e g o t ia t e d
10

t h e s e t h i n g s w it h P a r a s a s i n t e r n a t io n a l r o l e p l a y e r.
k n o w w h a t w o u ld b e t h o s e is s u e s a t s ta k e .

So we did not

H e n c e w e s a i d w e w o u ld

w a n t t h a t t o h a p p e n b u t th e n w e w a n t e d t o m a k e i t in l i n e w i t h w h a t
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s r e q u e s t e d u s to d o .

N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s

r e q u e s t e d th a t w e w a n t t o d o a n i n v e s t i g a ti o n o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t i n t h e
i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f Vr e d e D a ir y o f w h ic h E s t in a is a p a r t y i n [i n d is t in c t]
w e d o n ’ t h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h th a t .
ADV LEAH

GCABASHE

SC :

Of

course

Mr

Va s r a m ,

in

th a t

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t I r e a d to y o u , h e s a y s , i f y o u g a v e a p p r o v a l h e
w a s h a p p y t o ta lk .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

To t h e in v e s ti g a to r s n u m b e r o n e .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

Ye s .
N u m b e r t w o , t h e s e a r e i n v e s t ig a t o r s

t h a t a r e d o in g w o r k f o r N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y y o u a r e p a r t o f th e s a m e
government.

Page 45 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W h y d i d y o u h a v e r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t

a l lo w in g N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y t o s p e a k t o E s t in a w h o , a t t h e e n d o f t h e
d a y, w a s a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t o r w a s a b o u t t o b e a n i m p l e m e n ti n g
a g e n t h a n d li n g f u n d s t h a t , e s s e n ti a lly c o m e fr o m t h e s a m e N a ti o n a l
Tr e a s u r y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o I d i d n o t h a v e a p r o b le m C h a i r

in … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

W e ll t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g y o u s a y – y o u s a i d y o u h a d a

p r o b le m w i t h a n d y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is w r o n g , i t
s e e m s th a t y o u h a d a p r o b l e m w i th i n v e s t ig a t o r s in t e r v i e w i n g E s t in a
w i t h o u t y o u o r w i t h o u t a n y b o d y r e p r e s e n ti n g y o u t h e r e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

I n t h e d e p a r t m e n t , th a t ’s c o r r e c t

C h a ir b e c a u s e I w o u l d n o t w a n t t o b e s e e n g iv in g a n in v e s t i g a t o r
p e r m is s io n to in v e s ti g a t e a p r iv a te c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON :

N o M r T h a b e t h e , Es t in a h a s a n a g r e e m e n t w it h y o u r

d e p a r t m e n t.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :
20

A n d i t is g o in g to b e n e fi t fr o m ta x p a y e r ’s m o n e y.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Tr e a s u r y is th e r e to lo o k a f t e r th e t a x p a y e r ’s m o n e y.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e y w a n t t o i n v e s ti g a t e , o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d

t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e s a id t o th e m , o h y o u w a n t t o s p e a k t o Es t in a ,
p l e a s e b y a ll m e a n s g o t h e r e a n d a c t u a ll y if y o u w a n t I c a n p i c k u p t h e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
p h o n e a n d s a y t h e y m u s t p l e a s e m a k e s u r e t h e y m e e t w i th y o u .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e t h e r I ’ m th e r e o r n o t , w h e th e r s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e
d e p a r t m e n t i s th e r e o r n o t i s n e i th e r h e r e n o r t h e r e , g o a n d m e e t w it h
t h e m , w h y d i d n ’ t y o u s a y t h a t , w h a t w a s t h e p r o b l e m w it h s a y in g th a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I h e a r y o u C h a ir, m a y b e th a t ti m e

t h e n t h e r e w a s a m is u n d e r s ta n d i n g b e c a u s e m y p r o b le m – I ’ d n e v e r h a d
a p r o b le m t o h a v e th e in v e s t i g a t o r s s p e a k in g to h i m . M y t h i n k i n g w a s
t h a t th e y w a n t p e r m is s io n fr o m m e .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b u t y o u – w e l l t h e y m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e w a n t e d

p e r m is s io n fr o m y o u b u t I d o n ’ t s e e e v e n w h y t h e y th o u g h t it ’s
n e c e s s a r y t o g e t p e r m is s i o n fr o m y o u i f t h e y th o u g h t t h e y n e e d e d
p e r m is s io n b u t t h a t m i g h t b e fo r – th a t m i g h t b e b e c a u s e o f w h a t I d o n ’ t
k n o w in t e r m s o f h o w N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y o p e r a t e s a n d P u b li c S e r v i c e
o p e r a t e s b u t th e f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r is , E s ti n a h a d a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e
d e p a r t m e n t i n o r d e r fo r t h e m t o p r o p e r ly i n v e s t ig a t e t h e p r o je c t, t h e
h a d t o s p e a k to E s t in a a n d a c t u a l ly if E s t in a r e fu s e d t o s p e a k to t h e m i t
s e e m s t o m e i t w o u l d h a v e fa ll e n u p o n y o u t o s a y, y o u c a n ’ t h a v e a n
a g r e e m e n t w i t h u s b e in g p a r t o f g o v e r n m e n t a n d y o u r e f u s e t o t a l k t o
20

government

because

Tr e a s u r y

is

government.

When

they

are

in v e s t i g a t io n , i f t h a t ’s y o u r a t ti t u d e t h e n m a y b e w e a r e n o t g o in g t o
c o n ti n u e t h is a g r e e m e n t w i th y o u . I f y o u e n t e r i n to a n a g r e e m e n t w i th
p a r t o f g o v e r n m e n t y o u w i ll b e i n v e s ti g a t e d , s o w h a t ’s y o u r p r o b l e m ?
S o t h a t ’s w h a t I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d y o u t o s a y t o Es t in a if t h e y
r e s is t e d . S o I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y y o u s e e m t o h a v e a p r o b l e m , I d o n ’ t s e e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
w h y y o u h a d a p r o b le m a n d w h y y o u w o u l d e v e n h a v e w a n t e d to h a v e a
la w y e r

o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t to

go there and be

th e r e

when th e

in v e s t i g a t o r s t a lk t o Es t in a , w h y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r I h e a r y o u b u t th e t h i n k in g

t h a t I h a d t h a t ti m e w a s a d i ff e r e n t th in k i n g . N o w t h a t w e a r e s p e a k in g
a n d th e i n v e s t i g a t io n i s d o n e , I h e a r y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u s e e t h e p o i n t ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :
10

I s e e t h e p o i n t.

Ye s .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

M y p r o b l e m w a s t h a t , a l s o n o t b e in g

v e r y c l u e d w i th l e g a l is s u e s , I t h o u g h t – b e c a u s e I h a d s a id to t h e m , I
d o n ’t s e e a n y p r o b le m i n t h e m d o in g a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n d ir e c t ly w i th
E s ti n a w i t h o u t a s k i n g p e r m is s io n fr o m m e . Th e p r o b le m w a s t h a t w h y
s h o u l d t h e p e r m i s s i o n b e a s k e d fr o m e . I f t h e p e r m i s s i o n is a s k e d fr o m
m e , th e r e fo r e I w o u l d t h e n n e e d to h a v e s o m e b o d y t o s i t w i th t h e m , i f I
h a d g iv e n s u c h a p e r m is s io n .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l fr o m w h a t M is s G c a b a s h e h a s r e a d t h e r e , i t

s e e m s t o m e t h a t Es t in a w a s s a y in g t h e y w e r e q u i t e h a p p y t o b e
in t e r v ie w e d b y th e i n v e s ti g a to r s i f y o u g a v e p e r m i s s i o n . D i d y o u e v e r
20

g e t t o k n o w th a t , t h a t w a s t h e ir a t t it u d e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a ir t h e l e t t e r s h e ’s r e fe r r i n g

t o h a d n e v e r b e e n m a d e a v a il a b l e to u s , h i s le t t e r to t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s d i d - a s fa r a s y o u k n o w, a s f a r a s y o u

r e m e m b e r d i d t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s e v e r s a y t o y o u , E s ti n a is p r e p a r e d t o
t a lk to u s b u t t h e y w a n t to k n o w t h a t y o u a r e p e r m it t in g t h e m t o t a l k t o

Page 48 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
u s o r p e r m i t ti n g u s t o t a lk t o t h e m , d i d t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s e v e r s a y th a t
to you?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r i n th e m e e t in g t h a t w e h a d

t h e y r e q u e s te d m e t o w a iv e t h e a g r e e m e n t s o t h a t t h e y a r e a b l e t o g o
t o s p e a k to E s ti n a t h a t is w h a t th e y h a d a s k e d ?
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d th e w a iv i n g o f th e

a g r e e m e n t t o r e fe r t o o r is t h a t t h e p e r m is s io n y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s t o g i v e t h e m p e r m is s i o n t o d o

t h e in v e s t i g a t io n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u d i d n o t d o t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e l ik e –

t h e r e a r e t w o is s u e s C h a ir, I d i d n o t s e e w h y t h e y n e e d e d p e r m is s i o n to
d o i n v e s ti g a t i o n b e c a u s e t h e a g r e e m e n t s a y s t h e y w e r e n o t a l l o w e d to
g iv e i n f o r m a ti o n w i th o u t t h e c o n s e n t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Th a t i s E s ti n a ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

Th a t i s E s ti n a .

Ye s .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o w i f Es t in a w o u l d h a v e th e n

w r i t t e n t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o s a y, w e r e q u e s t p e r m i s s io n fr o m y o u , w e
20

w o u ld t h e n h a v e g r a n t e d t h a t p e r m is s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

I’ m s o r r y w h e r e i n t h e a g r e e m e n t d o e s i t s a y t h e y

w o u ld n e e d y o u r p e r m is s i o n ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

P a g e 3 4 6 C h a ir m a n a n d i t ’s t h e

c o n fi d e n ti a li ty c l a u s e w h ic h s a y s ,
“ Es ti n a w il l n o t , d u r i n g t h e t e r m o f t h is a g r e e m e n t a n d

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h e r e a f te r w it h o u t t h e p r i o r w r i t t e n c o n s e n t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t , d i s c l o s e
a n y c o n fi d e n t ia l i n fo r m a t i o n r e l a ti n g t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e p r o j e c t
to anyone other

t h a t t h o s e p e r s o n s w h o a r e c o n n e c t e d t o th e

d e p a r t m e n t a n d / o r E s ti n a a n d w h o a r e r e q u ir e d to h a v e a c c e s s to
such…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON :

O h I’ m s o r r y I t h i n k I m is s e d th is p a r t b u t th e n t h is

a p p e a r s to c l e a r ly s a y y o u m u s t g i v e p e r m i s s i o n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :
10

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o w h y d id y o u s a y to t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s – o r a t l e a s t

y o u s a i d t o m e e a r li e r o n , y o u d i d n ’ t s e e w h y t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s n e e d e d
your permission.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

To d o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

Ye s , s o i n t h e li g h t o f t h is c la u s e , a r e y o u s a y i n g

t h e y d id n o t n e e d y o u r p e r m is s i o n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s t h e c l a u s e is s a y in g , C h a ir, i f

t h e y w a n t e d p e r m i s s i o n fr o m u s t o g o a n d d o th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n , w e s a i d
w e d o n ’t h a v e a n y p r o b l e m f o r th e m t o d o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n b u t th e n w e
w o u ld o r g a n i s e t h e m e e ti n g f o r th e m t o c o m e a n d d o t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n
b u t t h a t’s n o t w h a t t h e y w a n t e d . T h e y w a n te d a n e x c lu s iv e w i t h o u t t h e
20

d e p a r t m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y o u s e e w h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o a s a n e x c l u s iv e , y o u
m e a n a n e x c l u s iv e in t e r v i e w w i t h E s ti n a b e tw e e n t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s a n d
E s ti n a w i t h o u t t h e d e p a r t m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

Ye s a n d w h y w a s t h a t a p r o b le m ?

Page 50 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
MR

MBANA

PETER

THABETHE:

C h a ir

li k e

I

explained,

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t a t t h a t t i m e , is d i ffe r e n t I
w o u ld h a v e r e s p o n d e d d i ffe r e n tl y n o w.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s o k a y.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

As now I had responded before.

Ye s , n o t h a t I a p p r e c i a te b u t I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d

y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t th a t ti m e , w h a t d i d y o u s e e a s a p r o b l e m a t t h a t
ti m e , in t h e li g h t o f t h is c la u s e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Ye s w h a t I s a w a s a p r o b le m i s m e

g iv i n g p e r m is s i o n t o i n v e s ti g a t e a p r iv a te c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b u t y o u k n e w t h a t th e i r r e q u e s t f o r p e r m is s i o n

a r o s e fr o m t h i s c l a u s e is n ’t i t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y e s C h a ir.

A n d in te r ms o f th is c la u s e Es t in a w a s p r o h ib i te d

fr o m d i s c l o s in g c e r t a i n i n fo r m a ti o n t o o t h e r p e o p l e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d o b v i o u s l y th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s , i f th e y i n te r v i e w e d

E s ti n a t h e y w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d Es t in a t o d i s c l o s e c e r t a i n in f o r m a t io n
a b o u t t h e p r o je c t t o th e m ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

Ye s s o th e y w o u l d n e e d y o u r p e r m is s i o n t h e n .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s , C h a ir m a y b e I ’ m n o t – a l l I

a s k e d w a s t h a t w e b r i n g Es t in a , th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y
a n d w e s i t a n d w e d is c u s s a n d w e a g r e e , w e w o u l d h a v e c o m e u p w i t h
a s o l u t i o n i n t h a t m e e t in g t o s a y, o k a y p r o c e e d w i t h t h e in v e s t i g a t io n

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h is is n o w a ll o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja but why do you want an understanding, they are

in v e s t i g a t in g a n d th e y w a n t to in t e r v i e w E s ti n a p e o p l e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d o n ’ t y o u g iv e t h e m p e r m i s s i o n , t h e c l a u s e s a y s
E s ti n a m u s t g e t p e r m is s i o n fr o m y o u i n o r d e r to d i s c l o s e c e r t a i n
in f o r m a ti o n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :
10

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o w h y d o n ’t y o u g iv e t h e m ?

MR MBANA PETER TH ABETHE:

I h e a r y o u C h a ir, li k e I s a y th e

u n d e r s t a n d in g I h a v e n o w … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s y o u w o u l d g iv e th e p e r m is s io n n o w.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

I w o u ld g iv e th e p e r mi s s io n n o w.

Ye s .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B u t a t t h a t t i m e my t h i n k in g a n d

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f le g a l is s u e s w a s d i ffe r e n t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b u t r e m e m b e r I s a i d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t , I

a p p r e c ia t e t h a t i n t e r m s o f n o w, I ’ m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i t i s t h a t
y o u w o u l d h a v e s e e n a s a p r o b l e m a t th a t ti m e b e c a u s e i t s e e m s to m e
20

q u i te c le a r. I t s e e m s t o m e th a t a n y h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t w h o w a s r e a lly
in t e r e s te d i n N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y b e in g s a ti s f ie d th a t e v e r y th i n g w a s i n
o r d e r w o u ld h a v e s a i d , o h y e s E s t i n a y o u h a v e g o t m y p e r m is s io n t o
d is c l o s e w h a te v e r t h e y m a y a s k y o u , th e s e a r e n o t p e o p l e w h o a r e
c o m i n g fr o m o u ts i d e g o v e r n m e n t, t h e y a r e p a r t o f g o v e r n m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a g r e e w i th y o u C h a ir

Page 52 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

A t t h a t t i m e m y t h i n k in g w a s d i ff e r e n t

fr o m w h a t – if y o u h a d t o c o m e t o m e I w o u l d h a v e s a id g o a n d
in v e s t i g a t e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

At that time my understanding was

t h a t I’ m a fr a i d o f g iv in g p e r m i s s i o n f o r a n in v e s t i g a t io n o f a p r iv a t e
c o m p a n y. T h a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g , t h e n w h a t I w o u l d s a y C h a ir, I
m a d e a m is t a k e t h a t t i m e fo r n o t a ll o w i n g t h e m
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b u t I d o w a n t y o u t o – w e ll if t h a t i s a ll y o u a r e

a b l e to s a y i n te r ms o f w h a t th e b a s is w a s f o r o u r n o t b e i n g p r e p a r e d t o
g iv e p e r m is s i o n t h a t ’s f i n e , b u t I’ m lo o k i n g a t i t b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t k n o w i f ,
w h e n a ll e v id e n c e is h e a r d t h e r e m i g h t b e a s u g g e s ti o n t h a t i t w a s m o r e
t h a n t h a t , y o u k n o w a n d I ju s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e y o u g e t a n o p p o r tu n it y
t o d e a l w i t h i t, b u t M is s G c a b a s h e m ig h t b e h a v in g q u e s ti o n s a r o u n d
t h e is s u e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir, m a y b e j u s t t w o q u e s ti o n s a n d

r e a l ly Mr T h a b e t h e it ’s – t h e y w e r e n o t i n v e s ti g a ti n g E s ti n a a s a p r iv a te
c o m p a n y t h e y w e r e a s k i n g t o in v e s ti g a t e th e p r o j e c t t h a t y o u a n d
20

E s ti n a w e r e p a r t n e r i n g i n , I ’l l u s e t h a t w o r d v e r y lo o s e l y, p a r t n e r i n g in .
Yo u w e r e s a ti s f i e d t h a t , th a t w a s a ll t h e y w e r e r e a lly a s k i n g t o
in v e s t i g a t e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th e s e c o n d th in g i s I c a n ’ t q u i t e

u n d e r s t a n d t h e n a tu r e o f th e c o n fi d e n t ia l i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u s o u g h t t o

Page 53 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
p r o t e c t u n d e r th is c la u s e , m a y b e t h a t w ill h e l p u s u n d e r s t a n d y o u r
a tt i tu d e ? W h a t is t h e n a t u r e o f t h e c o n fi d e n t ia l i n f o r m a t io n y o u th o u g h t
n e e d e d t o b e p r o t e c t e d a n d t h i s is w h y y o u w e r e r e f u s i n g a c c e s s to
E s ti n a w i t h o u t y o u r b e in g th e r e ?
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll I s e e y o u l o o k a t m e Mr T h a b e t h e a n d y o u ’r e

n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t o s ta r t a n s w e r in g a n d t h a t ’s s i m p l y b e c a u s e I’ m
t h i n k i n g t h a t , fr o m y o u r a n s w e r y o u – w e ll m a y b e n o t r e a ll y w h a t I’ m
thinking about.

Yo u d o n ’ t s e e m t o h a v e b e e n c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e

d e p a r t m e n t y o u s e e m t o h a v e b e e n c o n c e r n e d a b o u t E s ti n a .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

C h a ir … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

S o b u t h a v i n g s a i d th a t, a n s w e r th e q u e s t i o n t h a t

M is s G c a b a s h e h a s p u t t o y o u I ’ m ju s t a r t i c u l a ti n g th is b e c a u s e y o u d i d
r e a l is e th a t I s e e m t o b e w a n t in g t o s a y s o m e t h i n g b u t n o w y o u k n o w
w h a t I w a s t h i n k in g b u t y o u c a n a n s w e r h e r q u e s t io n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

Ye s , C h a ir t h e q u e s t i o n w a s t h a t –

w h a t I h a d i n m i n d w a s t h a t E s t i n a – P a r a s , t h r o u g h E s ti n a w o u l d b e
d o i n g p r o d u c t s o n t h e p r o je c t a n d t h e y ’ r e t h e s o l e o w n e r s o f t h o s e
p r o d u c ts , t h e y b r a n d t h e ir n a m e , lik e a n y o th e r c o m p a n y t h a t h a s g o t
[i n d is t in c t] p r o p e r ty o n c e r t a i n p r o d u c ts . N o w th e p r o b l e m c o m e s w h e n
20

y o u g iv e p e r m is s i o n , t o w h a t e x t e n t a r e th e y g o i n g t o r e q u e s t
p e r m is s io n to e x p o s e s o m e o f th o s e i s s u e s . L ik e w h e n y o u g e t i n t o t h e
p r o j e c t , th e y d o t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n i n s u c h a w a y, h e n c e th e y s a i d t o u s ,
w h e n w e d o c o n s tr u c t io n o f t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t w e n o r m a l ly d o n ’t
a l lo w p e o p le to c o m e a n d t a k e p i c t u r e s b e c a u s e w e a r e e x p o s i n g o u r
in t e l le c t u a l

p r o p e r ty s o p e o p l e k n o w h o w w e a c h i e v e t h e p r o d u c t io n o f

Page 54 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h is b r a n d .

N o w t h a t in f o r m a t io n b e c o m e s v e r y c o n fi d e n t i a l b e c a u s e

t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o b r i n g t h a t in f o r m a ti o n o f th a t p r o je c t i n t h e
c o n s tr u c ti o n p h a s e s o t h a t a t t h e e n d i t c o m e s u p w i t h th a t p a r t ic u l a r
b r a n d o f a p r o d u c t w h ic h t h e y ’ v e g o t a s o le in t e l le c tu a l p r o p e r ty,
n o b o d y e l s e w il l p r o d u c e it t h a t s a m e w a y b e c a u s e i t h a s t h e b r a n d
name of that product. Now the understandin g when we had discussed
t h a t w a s in l i n e w i t h s a y i n g , t h e d e p a r t m e n t b e c o m e s – w e a r e g i v i n g
y o u i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t is e x c l u s iv e in y o u r c o n s tr u c ti o n , w e w o u l d n ’ t w a n t
t h a t in f o r m a t io n t o b e e x p o s e d to e v e r y b o d y b e c a u s e a n y v e n d o r th e n
10

w o u ld m a n u fa c tu r e o u r p r o d u c t , t h e y k n o w h o w w e d o i t . N o w t h a t ’s t h e
d i ff ic u l ty, h e n c e i t’s v e r y d i ff ic u l t to s a y i t s e e m s I w a s p r o t e c ti n g
E s ti n a m o r e t h a n t h e d e p a r t m e n t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

B u t t h is is w h a t t h e y h a d s a i d t o u s ,

w e a r e w il li n g t o c o m e a n d a s s is t y o u o n t h o s e b a s is t h a t y o u d o n ’ t
a l lo w p e o p l e to c o m e a n d s e e h o w w e d e a l w i t h th is p r o d u c t b e c a u s e
it ’s o u r i n te ll e c t u a l .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s I s e e M i s s G c a b a s h e c e r ta i n ly h a s m o r e q u e s t i o n

f o r y o u o n t h e is s u e , I ’ m n o t s u r p r is e d .
20

L e t ’s h a v e h e t e a b r e a k a n d

w e ’l l r e s u m e – i t ’s t w e n ty p a s t w e ’ ll r e s u m e a n d tw e n ty f iv e to t w e lv e ,
we adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y c o n t in u e M s G c a b a s h e .

Page 55 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r Th a b e t h e r e a l ly
ju s t t o t i d y th is u p ju s t f o r m y o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g .
1 . I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d fr o m r e a d i n g th e E N S N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y
R e p o r t t h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o g o o n a s i t e v is it – g o t o a f a c t o r y a n d
in v e s t i g a t e t h e ty p e o f p r o d u c ts th a t w e r e b e i n g m a n u fa c t u r e d . I
w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t th e a m b i t o f N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s e n q u ir y
w o u ld b e
1 . To g e t a c o p y o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w h ic h y o u a p p a r e n tl y r e fu s e d
t o g iv e a n d t h a t w o u l d h a v e h e lp e d t h e m .
2 . To u n d e r s t a n d w h a t f u n d s h a d a lr e a d y b e e n t r a n s f e r r e d t o

10

E s ti n a .

A n d o n c e t h e y u n d e r s to o d w h a t f u n d s h a d b e e n

tr a n s fe r r e d to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t o t h e r c o n d it io n a l g r a n ts m i g h t
h a v e b e e n a g r e e d o r m ig h t b e p r o p o s e d t o b e g iv e n t o E s ti n a
to handle.

A n d t h e n j u s t to m o n i t o r h o w t h i s – h o w t h e s e

f u n d s w o u ld b e a p p l ie d .
T h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s a p u b l ic o ff ic ia l a s a H O D
t a lk in g t o c o ll e a g u e s t h r o u g h y o u .

T h a t w a s n o t y o u r t h in k i n g a t t h e

ti m e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a t h a n k s C h a ir. C h a ir i f th a t w o u ld
20

h a v e b e e n th e u n d e r s t a n d in g a t t h a t t i m e t h e r e s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a
p r o b le m .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e n I j u s t w a n t t o c l e a r u p M r T h a b e t h e
t h e s e e m a ils t h a t r e a l ly g i v e a d i ff e r e n t v e r s io n t o w h a t y o u s a y
b e c a u s e I a m n o t g o i n g t o r e a d a ll o f t h e m .

I h a v e r e a d th e m o s t

i m p o r t a n t o n e i t i s j u s t th e o n e w e r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d . T h a t o n e w a s

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
d a t e d t h e 5 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 . B u t b e fo r e t h a t o n t h e 1 D e c e m b e r t h e r e
w a s a n e m a i l s e n t b y a g a i n M s J a c o b s t o M r Va s r a m s a y i n g
“ Yo u h a v e fu r t h e r n o t r e s p o n d e d to m y r e q u e s t to
in f o r m u s o n w h a t b a s is y o u a n d o r E s t in a a n d o r
Paras

are

m e e ti n g

c la i m in g

w i th

Mr

c o n fi d e n ti a li ty.
Thabethe

on

During

Fr i d a y

the

our
22

N o v e m b e r h e i n fo r m e d E N S t h a t h e h a d d is c u s s e d
o u r r e q u e s t w i t h y o u a n d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t w i ll in g t o
meet
10

w i th

in v e s t i g a t io n .

ENS

or

to

cooperate

with

this

W e t h e r e f o r e h a v e n o o p t io n b u t t o

d e d u c e th a t y o u a r e n o t w i ll in g to c o o p e r a t e w i th t h i s
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d t h e r e q u e s t fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
S o t h e i m p o r t a n t t h i n g th e r e i s w e h a v e s p o k e n t o M r
T h a b e th e o n t h e 2 2 N o v e m b e r. ”
CHAIRPERSON :

J u s t r e p e a t M s G c a b a s h e w h o th a t e m a il w a s fr o m

and who it was addressed to?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h e d a t e o f th e e m a il C h a ir m a n i t is o n
p a g e 2 4 9 o f th e R e p o r ts b u n d l e p a g e 2 4 9 a n d i t i s a n e m a i l d a te d th e 1
D e c e m b e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y p l e a s e g iv e m e t h e R e p o r t s b u n d l e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e R e p o r ts b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : It is bundle B.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t w ill b e s m a ll b .

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Ye s a n d p a g e 2 4 9

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
please.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GC ABASHE SC :

T h e y a r e f i le d b a c k to fr o n t i n a s e n s e

C h a ir m a n s o I w i ll j u s t h e l p y o u n a v i g a te t h r o u g h – t h r o u g h t h o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E m a i ls .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b u t y o u c a n ju s t r e it e r a te w h o i t w a s fr o m a n d

w h o i t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o a n d th e n h e c a n r e s p o n d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o i t is fr o m J a c o b s d a t e d 1 D e c e m b e r t o
10

Va s r a m a n d c o p i e d t o C e le , th e r e is a B a r n a r d a s w e ll a n d th e t i tl e is
c le a r Vr e d e I n te g r a te d D a ir y P r o j e c t . S o i t w a s v e r y c le a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A s t o w h a t th e y w e r e tr y i n g t o i n v e s ti g a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t m a y b e b e fo r e – b e fo r e i t – I j u s t w a n t t o g o
b a c k t o th e a n s w e r th a t M r T h a b e th e g a v e to y o u r q u e s ti o n b e f o r e th e
break.

R e m e m b e r a t l e a s t p a r t o f w h a t I w a s h o p in g w o u l d e m e r g e s

w h e t h e r I w a s r ig h t in t h in k i n g t h a t y o u s e e m e d t o b e m o r e c o n c e r n e d
a b o u t p r o t e c t in g E s ti n a t h a n r e a lly t h e d e p a r t m e n t . N o w y o u g a v e a n
a n s w e r a n d y o u t a lk e d a b o u t i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r t y a n d s o o n a n d s o o n .
20

A m I r i g h t t o s a y y o u r c o n c e r n w a s m o r e w i t h E s ti n a t h a n w i t h t h e
d e p a r t m e n t i n t e r m s o f c o n f id e n ti a l i ty i f t h e r e w a s a n y c o n c e r n o n y o u r
p a r t o n c o n f id e n t i a l it y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t e x a c tl y C h a ir t h e w a y y o u p u t ti n g
it .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I d i d h a v e a c o n c e r n w i t h E s ti n a w it h
r e g a r d t o t h e i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e – t h a t – b u t i t is n o t – i t

d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t I h a d m o r e c o n c e r n a b o u t E s ti n a t h a n t h e
d e p a r t m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y b u t l e t u s c l e a r t h is o n e a t a t i m e . A s f a r a s

y o u r r e f u s a l t o g iv e p e r m i s s i o n t o th e – t o th e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y
in v e s t i g a t o r s to i n t e r v ie w Es t in a p e o p l e w i th o u t a n y b o d y fr o m th e
10

d e p a r t m e n t y o u r c o n c e r n w a s w i th r e g a r d to t h e c o n f id e n t i a l it y o f
E s ti n a ’s in t e l l e c t u a l p r o p e r ty, is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w a s t h e r e a n y o th e r c o n c e r n t h a t fo r m e d t h e
b a s is o f y o u r u n p r e p a r e d n e s s t o g iv e th e p e r m is s i o n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir d u r i n g t h e m e e t in g th a t I h a d

w i t h t h e m th e y w e r e n o t – th e y w e r e n o t a b l e t o s a y to m e o u r i n t e r e s t
g o e s u p t o t h i s f a r. B e c a u s e if t h a t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e c a s e I s h o u l d
not have had the problem.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n in t h e in v e s ti g a to r s ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d o y o u m e a n – w h a t d id y o u w a n t t h e m t o s a y

a b o u t t h e ir i n t e r e s t a s to h o w fa r t h e ir i n t e r e s t w e n t . Ex a c t ly w h a t is i t
t h a t y o u w a n t e d th e m t o s a y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t a b o u t t h e s c o p e o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C h a ir th e s c o p e o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n
it w o u l d n o t h a v e g o n e t o a n e x t e n t b e c a u s e I t o ld t h e m t h a t i f i t w o u l d
n o t g o to t h e e x te n t t h e y s h o u ld i n d ic a te t o m e th a t it w o u l d n o t g o to
t h e e x t e n t o f d e a l i n g w i th is s u e s o f i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty.

Then there

w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a p r o b le m . B u t th e y d i d n o t w a n t m e to l i m i t t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n .

I t m e a n s t h e y w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d t o i n v e s t ig a t e a n y

o th e r t h i n g in c l u s iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h e p r o je c t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

A b o u t t h e p r o j e c t w h ic h w o u l d h a v e

a ls o i n c l u d e d t h e is s u e o f i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o I w il l t a lk a b o u t t h e i n t e l le c t u a l – y o u r c o n c e r n
a b o u t t h e c o n f id e n ti a l it y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f th e i n t e l le c t u a l p r o p e r ty a n d E s ti n a . B u t a s f a r a s
t h e d e p a r t m e n t is c o n c e r n e d w h a t i f a n y th i n g w a s t h e r e th a t f o r m e d th e
b a s is o f y o u r u n p r e p a r e d n e s s t o g iv e p e r m is s i o n ? I n o t h e r w o r d s w h a t
in t e r e s t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w e r e y o u r t r y i n g t o p r o te c t a g a i n s t p e o p le
fr o m – in v e s ti g a t o r s fr o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n r e l a ti o n t o i n n o t w a n t in g
t o g iv e p e r m is s i o n ?

20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir l e t m e g o b a c k a g a in . W e –
w e h a d w r it t e n a le t t e r t o t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s a c t u a lly a l e t te r o f c o m p l a in t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e h a d g iv e n i n f o r m a ti o n

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d t h a t in f o r m a t io n w e h a d h a n d e d
o v e r to t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s w a s i n th e w e e k e n d m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s in t h e w e e k e n d n e w s p a p e r s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s w i t h t h e n e w s p a p e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e w r o t e a l e t t e r t h r o u g h th e D ir e c to r
10

G e n e r a l o f t h e P r o v i n c e c o m p l a i n i n g t o s a y N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s d o n e
in v e s t i g a t io n .

H e r e is i n fo r m a ti o n w e h a v e g i v e n th e m a n d t h a t

in f o r m a ti o n w a s i n th e m e d i a o n th e w e e k e n d . N o w w e c o m p l a i n e d t o
t h e D G a t N a ti o n a l in w r i ti n g .

W e r e c e iv e d a r e s p o n s e t o o u r

c o m m u n ic a ti o n to t h e D G a n d t h e r e s p o n s e th a t w e a r e r e c e iv in g c o m e s
fr o m t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r. T h e l e t t e r w e w r o te to t h e D G w a s r e s p o n d e d b y
t h e i n v e s t ig a to r.

Now we – and then we have – we had a problem

b e c a u s e o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e D G w o u l d th e n s a y h o w d i d
t h is h a p p e n ? Yo u r e le a s e i n f o r m a t i o n y o u g a v e t o t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r a n d
t h e i n fo r m a t i o n s tr a i g h t g o e s t o t h e m e d i a .
20

We had the problem with

t h a t h e n c e w e w r o t e t h e le t t e r a n d s a y w e h a v e a p r o b le m p le a s e a s s is t
u s in d e a l i n g w i th t h is t h i n g u n t il t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n h a s b e e n c o m p le t e d .
We

cannot

have

a

situation

where

in f o r m a ti o n a n d r e le a s e i t to t h e m e d ia .

in v e s t i g a t o r

comes

c o ll e c t

But we – we – we were not

a b l e to b e a s s is t e d b e c a u s e w e r e c e iv e d a r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r a n s w e r in g o u r le t t e r w e s e n t t o t h e D G .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h o w d id t h a t fo r m a b a s is f o r y o u n o t b e i n g

p r e p a r e d t o g i v e p e r m is s io n to th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s t o g o a n d s e e a n d
in t e r v ie w th e E s ti n a p e o p le ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h y I a m g iv in g t h is e x a m p le C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To s a y w h a t t h e n c a m e t o m y m i n d i f
– i f th e n w e w o u ld s p e a k to t h e m a n d t h e y w i ll s a y n o w e d o n o t w a n t
you to limit us.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I n c lu d in g th e is s u e s o f t h e i n te ll e c t u a l
p r o p e r ty.

It m e a n s t h e y w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d t o i n v e s ti g a te a n y o t h e r

t h i n g i n t h a t r e l a ti o n . N o w t h a t is w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m c a m e i n b e c a u s e
if t h e y w o u ld h a v e a g r e e d to s a y n o w e w i ll – w e a r e in v e s ti g a t i n g
i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d a ll t h o s e t h i n g s y o u r tr a n s fe r s , y o u r p a y m e n t a n d
w h a t e v e r w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o g e t i n to th e is s u e s o f th e i n te ll e c t u a l –
t h e n I w o u ld n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e t h o s e t h i n g s a r e n o t m i n e . I
c a n n o t g iv e p e r m i s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll y o u s e e th a t is p a r t o f t h e p r o b l e m . Fr o m w h a t

y o u h a v e s a i d i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t th e r e r e a l ly w a s n o – t h e r e r e a lly
20

w a s n o t h i n g t h a t f o r m e d – t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g r e la t in g to t h e d e p a r t m e n t
t h a t f o r m e d t h e b a s is f o r y o u r n o t w a n t i n g t o g iv e t h e m p e r m is s io n .
The

only

t h in g

unpreparedness

th a t s e e ms
to

give

to

have

p e r m is s io n

formed
was

the

your

b a s is
c oncern

of your
about

c o n fi d e n ti a li ty r e l a ti n g to t h e i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r t y o f E s ti n a . N o w I ju s t
w a n t y o u to c o n f ir m w h e t h e r m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e is

Page 62 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
correct?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w w h y w o u l d y o u b e s o c o n c e r n e d a b o u t a n y
in t e l le c t u a l p r o p e r t y o f E s ti n a w h e n y o u w e r e b e i n g r e q u e s t e d t o g iv e
p e r m is s io n s u c h a s i s c o n te m p l a t e d in C l a u s e 1 0 . 1 o f t h e a g r e e m e n t
a b o u t c o n fi d e n t i a l it y ?

B e c a u s e i f y o u g a v e p e r m is s i o n a n d E s ti n a

t h o u g h t y o u g a v e p e r m is s i o n fo r th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s t o in t e r v i e w Es t i n a
10

people
1 . T h a t m ig h t h a v e n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h a n y i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r t y.
T h e r e f o r e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w o u l d g o o n b u t
2 . E v e n i f th e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g t h e y w a n t e d t o ta lk a b o u t i n r e l a ti o n
t o i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r t y o r t o s e e E s t in a c o u l d p r o t e c t in t e r e s t b y
r e fu s i n g s o w h y c o u ld y o u n o t s a y l o o k a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d
I a m g iv i n g y o u p e r m is s io n .

I f Es t in a h a s a n y p r o b l e m y o u w il l

d e a l w it h t h e m .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e y h a d – I h a d r a is e d i t i n th e
m e e ti n g w i t h th e i n v e s ti g a to r s .
20

T h a t i s m y o n ly l i mi t a ti o n w h ic h t h e y

w e r e n o t w i ll i n g t o a g r e e w i t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t t h e in t e l le c tu a l p r o p e r t y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t t h a t is w h e r e I h a v e a p r o b le m .

Why you being

h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w e r e m o r e c o n c e r n e d a c t u a l ly fr o m w h a t I th i n k
M s G c a b a s h e r e a d e a r li e r o n i t l o o k s l ik e y o u w e r e m o r e c o n c e r n e d

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
a b o u t E s ti n a ’s i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty t h a n Es t in a i ts e lf .

B e c a u s e it

s e e m s t h a t E s ti n a w a s s a y i n g t h e y w e r e p r e p a r e d – s a y i n g t o t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s th e y w e r e p r e p a r e d t o – to m e e t w it h th e m if y o u w o u l d
agree. They did not seem to have the same concern that you had about
c o n fi d e n ti a li ty a n d t h e ir i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i t – t h e is s u e i s t h e i s s u e o f a
c o n d i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t c o n d i ti o n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Because anybody who had to

in v e s t i g a t e a n d y o u a g r e e w i t h h i m a n d t h e n y o u c o m e a n d y o u e x p o s e
t h e i s s u e o f th e i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty t h e n i t b e c o m e s a p r o b l e m i n m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t – b u t i f E s t i n a h a d a p r o b l e m t h e y w o u l d r a i s e
t h e is s u e a n d a ls o y o u c o u l d p ic k u p t h e p h o n e w i t h – a n d p h o n e E s t i n a
a n d s a y t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s w a n t m e t o g iv e p e r m i s s i o n f o r t h e m to
in t e r v ie w y o u a n d t h e r e fo r e I p r o p o s e to g iv e t h e m t h e p e r m is s i o n . Yo u
d o h a v e a n y p r o b le m ? Yo u d id n o t d o t h a t , d i d y o u ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o it h a s b e e n d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d I h a v e a ls o s a i d t o t h e

in v e s t i g a t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t I h a v e b e e n i n c o m m u n ic a t i o n

w i t h Es t in a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W i t h r e g a r d t o th is i s s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d in o u r d is c u s s i o n w i th E s ti n a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d t h is h a s b e e n t h e p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h i s i s – th is o n e i t e m h a s b e e n t h e
p r o b le m .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W h e n I w a s d is c u s s i n g w i th E s ti n a

a n d w h e n I w a s d is c u s s i n g w i th t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t fr o m y o u r s i d e y o u s e e t h e p e r m is s io n t h a t
m u s t c o m e fr o m y o u a s f a r a s o u ts i d e r s a r e c o n c e r n e d I w o u l d i m a g i n e
is r e a ll y m o r e t o p r o t e c t in f o r m a t io n r e l a ti n g to t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
B e c a u s e y o u a s – i n t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t y o u c o u l d h a v e – y o u
c o u l d h a v e s e e n w h a t e v e r y o u n e e d e d t o s e e fr o m E s ti n a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t a s I u n d e r s ta n d it I t h i n k th a t y o u r p e r m i s s i o n

w a s p u t i n m o r e t o p r o te c t th e d e p a r t m e n t ’s i n fo r m a ti o n a n d o f c o u r s e I
20

d o n o t s e e w h y th e r e w il l b e a p r o b l e m w it h N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y p e o p l e
s e e i n g in f o r m a t io n o f a g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t a s s u c h a n d o f c o u r s e
you have not said that was your concern. It is – you said it was with
in t e l le c t u a l p r o p e r ty. B u t I th in k – I t h i n k t h a t i s fi n e w e h a v e r e a c h e d
a s ta g e w h e r e w e a g r e e th a t y o u r c o n c e r n w a s w i th in t e l l e c tu a l p r o p e r ty
– th a t y o u s a y t h a t y o u r c o n c e r n w a s w i t h i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r t y o f

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
E s ti n a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d d i d y o u k n o w w h a t i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty E s ti n a

h a d th e r e i n r e l a ti o n t o a n y t h in g i n th e p r o j e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r t h a t is t h e p r o b l e m .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b u t y o u c a n n o t f ig h t s o m u c h t o p r o t e c t

s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w.

D i d y o u k n o w w h a t i n te ll e c t u a l

p r o p e r ty t h e y h a d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

C h a ir I h a d – I h a d – t h e y h a d

d is c u s s e d w it h m e th e is s u e o f th e i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR

MBANA PETER

THABETHE :

But

those

documents

of

the

in t e l le c t u a l p r o p e r t y w e r e n o t h a n d e d o v e r t o u s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o I u n d e r s t o o d w h a t – w h a t is – w a s
a t s t a k e i n t e r m s o f t h e i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty b e c a u s e th e y h a d t o u s e
s o m e o f t h o s e i n t h e c o n f ig u r a ti o n o f th e p r o j e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o t h a t t h e o u t p u t g e ts to w h a t t h e y
20

a r e l o o k i n g f o r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

So I understood and I saw those

d o c u m e n ts w h i c h t h e y w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Ms Gcabashe.
ADV LEAH GCABASH E SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

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Yo u r e c a ll M r

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
T h a b e th e t h a t w e s h o w e d y o u d o c u m e n ts t h a t i n d ic a te d t h a t E s ti n a w a s
a c o m m e r c i a l c o m p a n y I T c o m p a n y. I t o p e r a te d i n t h a t s p a c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r li e r t o

s p e a k a b o u t p r o d u c ti o n li n e s s p e c if ic is s u e – s p e c i fi c p r o d u c ts t h a t y o u
w o u ld h a v e w a n t e d o r d e r e d f o r th e d a ir y f a r m .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Wa s th a t w h a t y o u w e r e c o m m u n i c a t in g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o i n f a c t a s t h e C h a ir m a n h a s b e e n

a s k in g y o u i t w a s P a r a s ’ i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d w it h ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o t Es t in a ’s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s i t w a s P a r a s i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty
in t h e h a n d s o f E s ti n a . B e c a u s e t h e y w e r e i m p l e m e n t i n g . L e t – C h a ir
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , ja .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I d o n o t k n o w i f I c a n e x p l a i n t h is ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s e x p la in i t is fi n e .
es explain it is fine.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In a – i n a s i m p l e l a y m a n ’s l a n g u a g e .
A r e c i p e f o r b a k i n g c o o k ie s , p a r t ic u l a r c o o k ie s . Yo u m a y n o t h a v e u n ti l
t h e p e r s o n s a y s h e r e is t h e r e c i p e g o a n d d o i t s o t h a t y o u a r e a b le t o
p r o d u c e t h i s . A n d th e s e t h in g s a r e e x c l u s iv e ly m in e . O th e r w i s e i f y o u

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
do not use them the way they are you are not going to achieve that
p r o d u c t . N o w I a m j u s t u s i n g t h a t e x a m p le .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja, no, no I think ever ybody understands that.

He

s a y s M s G c a b a s h e w i ll c o n ti n u e w i t h d e a l i n g w i t h th a t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Mr T h a b e t h e I t h in k
I r e a ll y d o n o t w a n t t o b e la b o u r t h is v e r y m u c h f u r t h e r b e c a u s e m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e e m a il s a n d C h a ir m a n I j u s t c o m m e n d th e m t o y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y r u n fr o m p a g e 2 4 9 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th r o u g h t o p a g e 2 5 1 .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d th e y w i ll g i v e f u r t h e r c o n t e x t t o t h e

s a m e d i s c u s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O r a t l e a s t th e e v i d e n c e i s t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y a r e – e n d o f 2 0 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D is c u s s i o n s t h a t is w h a t t h e y r e fl e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e y r e fl e c t Mr T h a b e t h e ’s a t ti t u d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o I t h i n k I w ill ju s t c o m m e n d
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h e s e to y o u b e c a u s e Mr T h a b e t h e h a s

s p e n t q u i t e a b i t o f ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E x p l a i n in g h i s p o s i t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k – I t h i n k m a y b e w h a t y o u – y o u – w h a t
y o u s h o u l d n e v e r th e le s s d o is t o p u t t o h i m i f t h a t i s t h e c a s e t h a t a
r e a d in g o f th o s e e m a ils a n d y o u c a n s p e c i f y t h e m w i t h o u t g o i n g th r o u g h
e a c h o f th e m .

A r e a d i n g o f t h o s e e m a il s is n o t c o n s i s te n t w i th h is

v e r s i o n n o w o n th is p o i n t if t h a t i s t h e p o s i ti o n .
10

S o th a t h e g e ts a

c h a n c e t o r e s p o n d to t h a t . I f h e w is h e s t o l o o k a t t h o s e e m a ils b e fo r e
h e r e s p o n d s t h e n t h a t c a n b e d o n e a n d w e c a n if n e c e s s a r y h e c a n l o o k
a t t h a t o v e r t h e lu n c h b r e a k a n d t h e n a ft e r l u n c h h e c a n a n s w e r t h a t
q u e s t io n i f h e n e e d s t o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : In fa c t it b o i ls d o w n to th is Mr T h a b e th e .
T h e e m a i l d a t e d th e 1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 t o M r Va s r a m c o m m u n ic a te s
c le a r ly t h a t y o u M r T h a b e th e i n fo r m e d E N S th a t y o u Mr T h a b e t h e h a d
d is c u s s e d E N S ’s r e q u e s t w i t h Mr Va s r a m a n d th a t M r Va s r a m w a s n o t

20

w i ll in g to m e e t E N S . T h a t is w h a t y o u c o m m u n i c a t e d t o E N S .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o it is n o t c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

O k a y.

S o t h a t i s w h a t t h a t e m a i l d a te d

t h e 1 D e c e m b e r c o m m u n ic a te s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t e m a i l is fr o m w h o t o w h o m ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s f r o m J a c o b s t o Va s r a m .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON :

S o – s o J a c o b s – M r J a c o b s w a s c o n f ir m i n g th a t

a c c o r d i n g t o M r Th a b e t h e
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Es t in a w a s u n w i ll in g to m e e t w i th t h e m .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Correct.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

S o – b u t y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t y o u n e v e r t o l d

a n y b o d y t h a t E s t i n a w a s u n w i ll in g t o m e e t w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o I h a v e n o t C h a ir. T h e b o n e o f
c o n te n ti o n i n my m e e ti n g .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

W i th t h e in v e s ti g a t o r w a s th e m

w a n ti n g to g o a n d in v e s ti g a t e w i t h o u t a n y r e s e r v a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W h ic h I d is c u s s e d w i t h t h e m a n d I

t o l d t h e m [i n d i s t i n c t ] t h e o n l y is s u e w h i c h is a p r o b l e m u n le s s t h e y
w e r e c o n fi r m in g th a t I s a i d t h e y r e f u s e d t o d o in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o th e
is s u e s o f i n t e l le c tu a l p r o p e r t y t h e n it w o u l d b e c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s fa r a s y o u k n o w w h y w o u l d t h e y b e i n t e r e s te d
in i n t e l le c tu a l p r o p e r t y ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : Chair …
CHAIRPERSON :

W h y w o u l d t h a t r e a l ly b e o f i n t e r e s t t o N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y I n v e s t ig a t o r s a b o u t t h i s p r o je c t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a m – I a m lo o k i n g a t my s e n i o r

counsel.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u a r e w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r h e s h o u l d s t a n d u p a n d

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
o b j e c t . H e w i ll n o t a s s is t y o u t o a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n . H e w il l l e a v e i t
t o y o u to a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n .

Yo u k n o w s o m e q u e s ti o n s ju s t n e e d

you.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I h e a r y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja it is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I – I d o n o t w a n t t o s p e c u la t e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , n o d o n o t s p e c u l a t e b u t I a m t r y in g t o

u n d e r s t a n d t h e t h i n k in g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e a n s w e r t h a t I w o u ld g i v e y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d b e s p e c u l a ti o n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W o u l d b e a s p e c u la t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o th a t i s w h y I s a y I d o n o t w a n t

t h a t . T h a t i s w h y I a m s a y in g I a m l o o k i n g a t m y s e n i o r c o u n s e l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o I g u e s s t h a t i s – t h e c o r r e c t a n s w e r t h e n is –
20

w o u ld b e t h a t y o u a l s o d o n o t k n o w w h y i n te l l e c t u a l p r o p e r ty w o u l d b e
o f i n t e r e s t to N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y in v e s t i g a t o r s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h y I a m a fr a i d . Ye s te r d a y I m a d e a
s t a te m e n t a b o u t t h e is s u e o f t h e m e a t .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I h a d t o r e tr a c t t h i s m o r n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s e e y o u d o n o t h a v e t o b e a fr a i d o f a n y t h in g
a s lo n g a s y o u a r e te ll i n g t h e tr u t h . I f y o u m a k e a m is t a k e y o u s a y I
m a d e a m i s t a k e I h a v e th o u g h t a b o u t i t y o u k n o w. S o i n o t h e r w o r d s a s
lo n g a s y o u a r e h o n e s tl y g iv i n g th e a n s w e r t h a t y o u b e li e v e to b e tr u e if
it t u r n s o u t l a t e r t o b e m i s ta k e n o r t o b e w r o n g a s l o n g a s i t is w h a t y o u
10

b e li e v e h o n e s tl y t o b e t h e tr u th t h e r e is n o p r o b le m .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a b e c a u s e y o u s e e C h a ir t h e o t h e r

f e a r I h a v e I h a v e s e e n s ta t e m e n ts b e in g m a d e a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d
t h e r e a f te r p e o p l e w e r e s u e d . S o h e n c e I a m s a y i n g …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR MBANA PET ER THABETHE : I do not want to go to t hat area and
m a k e a s ta t e m e n t a n d t h e n I g e t i n t o t r o u b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t . B u t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : H e n c e I a m s a y i n g I a m a f r a id t o g e t
there.
20

CHAIRPERSON :

J a b u t – b u t y o u a c c e p t th a t i t s e e ms t h a t t h e o n l y

a n s w e r is th e o n e I h a v e s u g g e s t e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. T h a n k y o u . M s G c a b a s h e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

M r B u t h e le z i w o u ld l ik e t o a d d r e s s y o u

C h a ir.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s M r B u th e le z i b e e n i n s p i r e d to o ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

No.

I t h i n k I w il l l e t h i m d e a l w i t h t h e

is s u e h e w o u l d l ik e t o r a i s e C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr B u t h e l e z i. Ye s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Mr T h a b e t h e ’s d i ff ic u l ty w i th r e g a r d s
t o th is q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e w e d i d p u r s u e i t w i t h h i m a s w e ll is t h a t th e r e
is a c e r t a i n l e v e l o f a v e r s i o n t o w a r d s m a k i n g u n s u b s t a n t ia t e d
10

s t a te m e n ts w h ic h m a y i n d u e c o u r s e o p e n h i m u p t o l e g a l l i a b il i ty fr o m
p a r t i e s o u ts i d e t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s w h o m a y th e n h a v e – g o a h e a d a n d
s a y y o u s a i d X Y Z a t t h e s t a te c a p t u r e c o m m i s s io n a n d w e n o w w a n t to
s u e y o u fo r th o s e s t a t e m e n t s . S o h e s a y s h e h a s in f o r m a ti o n t h a t h e
h a s fr o m h is p o s i t io n a s p e r s o n h a v i n g o p e r a t e d in th e D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e . A n d th e n a t u r e o f t h i s i n f o r m a t io n a n d th a t w a s s h a r e d w i th
h i m i n c o n f i d e n c e in t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e p r o j e c t w a s o f i n te r e s t t o
o th e r p e r s o n s o u ts i d e th e p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

20

But he cannot make that as a

s t a te m e n t o f f a c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : H e m a y s t a te i t a s a n o p i n io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : O r a t h o u g h t th a t h e h a s fo r h i m s e l f
h o w e v e r e v e n in s t a ti n g i t a s a n o p in i o n h e th e n r e n d e r s h i m s e l f l ia b le .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : B y th o s e th ir d p a r ti e s n o w p u r s u i n g
h i m f o r h a v i n g m a d e s u c h o p in i o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : O n s u c h a – i n s u c h a h e a r i n g .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a t i s t h e o n ly d i ff ic u l ty C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :
10

So maybe be tween myself and Ms

G c a b a s h e w e c o u ld ju s t c o n f e r f o r lik e fiv e m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : S o t h a t w e c la r i fy w h a t th e p o s i ti o n
n e e d s to b e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

B e c a u s e u lt i m a t e ly h e n e e d s t o

a s s is t th e c o m m i s s i o n , g e t t o th e b o t t o m o f th e i s s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w i th o u t a n y f e a r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : O f r e p r i s a l s f r o m o u ts id e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U TH E L E Z I :

A n d w e n e e d t o th e n c o u c h th a t

in f o r m a ti o n o r th o s e s t a t e m e n ts i n s u c h a w a y t h a t th e y a r e h e l p fu l t o
t h e c o m m i s s io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : B u t t h e y d o n o t le a v e h i m v u l n e r a b le
f o r c i v i l li a b i li ty o u t s i d e t h i s p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

W e l l m a y b e w e c a n l e a v e it o n t h e b a s i s t h a t

m a y b e d u r in g t h e lu n c h b r e a k t h e t w o o f y o u c a n ta lk .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ta lk t o e a c h o th e r a b o u t i t a n d t h e n w h e n I c o m e

b a c k a f t e r l u n c h i f w e n e e d to r e v is it t h e is s u e w e c a n l o o k a t th a t .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s C h a ir i f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v in g s a i d th a t I j u s t w a n t to s a y th a t th e q u e s ti o n
10

w a s – I a s k t h e q u e s t i o n b e c a u s e i t d id n o t s e e m t o m e t h a t o n e w o u l d
n e c e s s a r i ly

th in k

about

N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y

i n v e s ti g a to r s

being

c o n c e r n e d a b o u t i n t e l le c t u a l p r o p e r ty a n d i f I a m c o r r e c t i n t h a t
t h i n k i n g t h e n - t h e r e m a y b e a q u e s ti o n a s t o w h y t h e a p p r o a c h ta k e n
w a s n o t t h a t y o u p e o p l e y o u g o th e r e .
D o a s m u c h a s y o u c a n a n d E s t i n a w il l - i f E s t i n a r a is e s
p r o b le m s a b o u t a n y t h i n g le t u s d e a l w i t h i t a t th a t s ta g e a n d t r y a n d
solve it at that stage but maybe the two of you can confer over lunch
a n d th e n d e p e n d i n g o n th e n e e d w e - w e c a n t h e n r e v is i t it a f te r l u n c h .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u c h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I f - i f I m a y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : A d d a n a d d it i o n a l p o i n t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : T h e is s u e in th is i n s t a n c e w a s n o t s o

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m u c h N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i t s e l f b u t w h a t h a d e m e r g e d w a s t h a t N a ti o n a l
Tr e a s u r y h a d o u t s o u r c e d t o a n i n d e p e n d e n t o u t s i d e i n v e s t ig a t o r t o
c o n d u c t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o n b e h a l f o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y. N o w t h a t n o w
p l a c e s i t i n t h e r e a l m o f a n in d e p e n d e n t t h ir d p a r ty d o i n g th e w o r k f o r
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y it s e l f a n d i f t h a t in f o r m a ti o n is n o w s i t ti n g w i th t h e
in d e p e n d e n t th ir d p a r ty i t i s n o l o n g e r in t h e e x c l u s iv e c o n tr o l o f
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

W e l l a c c e p t th a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y c a n p u t

c o n d i ti o n s t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a th ir d p a r ty t o s a y b e c a u s e y o u w il l
10

b e d o i n g th is f o r u s t h e s e a r e t h e l i m i ta t io n s . Yo u k n o w. S o t h a t - t h a t
t h ir d p a r ty i s n o t e x a c t ly i n t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s w o u l d b e s o m e b o d y
fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y d o in g t h e s a m e t h i n g .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I n d e e d s o C h a i r …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : B u t I a c c e p t y o u r p o i n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

W e w i ll t a k e i t u p d u r in g t h e l u n c h

break.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
20

A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ms G c a b a s h e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

I ju s t w a n t to p u t

t h e s e c o n d p r o p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o t h e fir s t o n e r e la t e d to t h e e m a i l o f

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 Mr T h a b e t h e a n d w h a t i s r e c o r d e d h e r e is th a t y o u
s a i d t h a t M r Va s r a m w a s n o t w i ll in g t o s p e a k to t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s . Yo u
h a v e d e n i e d t h is ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e s e c o n d p r o p o s i ti o n is t h e r e i s t h e

e m a i l d a te d 5 D e c e m b e r f r o m M r Va s r a m t o t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r M s J a c o b s
a n d i n th is h e s a y s . Th e v e r y l a s t li n e is :
“ At t h e v e r y l e a s t i f y o u a p p r o v e … ”
T h i s is h is a tt i tu d e i f t h e d e p a r t m e n t a p p r o v e s h e is h a p p y t o
10

s p e a k t o th e i n v e s t i g a t o r s . W h a t is y o u r c o m m e n t o n t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

The

in d i c a t io n h e r e is t h a t i f - i f w e w o u l d s a y p r o c e e d . T h e n t h e y w o u ld d o
s o h a v i n g - a f te r h a v i n g c l e a r e d w h a t w e h a v e b e e n t o l d is t h e ir
c o n c e r n b e c a u s e t h e y h a d c o m m u n ic a t e d t o u s t h e ir c o n c e r n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h e l a s t o n e i t - i t is a n e m a i l fr o m w h o m
to whom?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s a n e m a i l C h a ir m a n f r o m M r Va s r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : It is on page 2-4-9.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s d a te d 5 D e c e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : It is to Ms Jacobs …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d i t is c o p i e d a g a in t o M r ( i n d i s t i n c t)

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
and Mr Barnard …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d M r Va s r a m w r i te s th a t a n d I a m j u s t

r e a d in g t h e la s t s e n t e n c e w h ic h is - s e n t e n c e w h ic h is t h e m o s t
r e l e v a n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t :
“ T h i s is a n in t e r d e p a r t m e n ta l m a tt e r in w h ic h o u r
p a r t ic ip a ti o n i n a n y fo r m if w a r r a n t e d c a n o n ly b e
10

in it i a t e d in t h e p r e s e n c e o f d e p a r t m e n t o ffi c i a l s o r
a t t h e v e r y l e a s t w i th t h e ir a p p r o v a l .”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : And it is the very last …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th r e e w o r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H e w a s p r e p a r e d t o ta lk to t h e m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A s l o n g a s M r T h a b e th e a p p r o v e d …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e i n t e r v ie w.
CHAIRPERSON :

D o y o u a c c e p t M r T h a b e t h e t h a t a t le a s t a s a t

2 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 E s t i n a - Mr Va s r a m w e r e p r e p a r e d t o s p e a k to th e
in v e s t i g a t o r s .

I a m t e m p t e d t o s a y a b o u t a n y t h i n g r e l a t i n g t o th e

p r o j e c t a s l o n g a s a t l e a s t th e y k n e w t h a t y o u h a d n o p r o b l e m . D o y o u

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
accept that …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s fa c t u a l ly th e p o s i ti o n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir - C h a ir t h a t w a s - t h a t w a s

correct …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e in t h e d is c u s s i o n b e tw e e n

me and him hence he had put it down was that for us to be able to have
a c l e a r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f - o f w h a t t h e y w o u l d a s k h i m . H e - h e s a id i f
10

t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s t h e r e s o t h a t y o u m a k e s u r e w h e n th e y g o t o t h e
a r e a w h e r e w e a r e n o t c o m f o r t a b le h e w o u l d b e a b le t o a s s i s t u s .
T h a t - th a t w e s a i d i t i s f in e . I f I w e r e t o g iv e a n a p p r o v a l I
w o u ld h a v e th e n r e q u e s t e d t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r to s a y to m e w e a r e n o t
in t e r e s te d

in

th e

i n te ll e c t u a l

p r o p e r ty.

p e r m is s io n t o p r o c e e d w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a t io n .

We

therefore

g iv e

you

S o t h o s e w e r e th e t w o

t h i n g s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t h e - h e s e e m s n o t t o b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th a t .

A ll h e s e e m s t o b e w a n t in g i s if t h e r e is n o - n o o ffi c i a l fr o m th e
d e p a r t m e n t a t th e i n t e r v ie w …
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

A t l e a s t y o u s h o u l d b e - y o u s h o u l d b e a b l e to s a y

y o u a r e o k a y w i th t h e r e b e in g n o o ff ic i a l f r o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d th e y
c a n c o n ti n u e a n d in t e r v ie w a n d g o i n t o t h e i n te r v i e w. H e - h e d o e s n o t
say - as I understand it. He does not say we - we are happy to - we w e a r e h a p p y t o d is c u s s w i t h y o u e v e r y t h i n g e x c e p t in t e l l e c tu a l

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
p r o p e r ty.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a , j a . C h a ir w h a t - w h a t I a m …
CHAIRPERSON :

I h o p e - I h o p e I a m r i g h t Ms G c a b a s h e i n t e r m s o f

w h a t t h e y s a y - E s t i n a - t h a t th e y d o n o t s e e m t o s a y w e a r e h a p p y to
d is c u s s a n y t h i n g w i t h i n v e s t ig a t o r s o t h e r t h a n i n te ll e c t u a l p r o p e r t y.
T h e y d o n o t s e e m to s a y t h a t.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y - t h e y d o n o t s p e a k …
CHAIRPERSON : About.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To t h e is s u e o f i n t e ll e c t u a l p r o p e r ty …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , a t a ll .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : At all.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h e y s i m p l y s p e a k t o th e a p p r o v a l w h ic h

is w h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C la u s e 1 0 d e a ls w it h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f y o u g iv e u s p e r m i s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

S o th e y d o n o t r a i s e t h a t is s u e a t a l ly.

Yo u w e r e

c o n c e r n e d a b o u t i t b u t t h e y b a s e d o n th is it i s n o t th e ir c o n c e r n - t h e ir
c o n c e r n a n d t h e y - t h e y a r e n o t s a y i n g - t h e y a r e n o t - t h e r e is n o t h i n g
h e r e t h a t s h o w s t h a t t h e y w a n t y o u t o r e f u s e p e r m is s io n . T h e r e s e e m s
t o b e n o t h i n g s u g g e s ti n g t h a t t h e y w a n t y o u t o r e fu s e p e r m is s i o n . T h e y
ju s t w a n t y o u t o m a k e u p y o u r m i n d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a , j a . C h a ir I a m - I a m r e s p o n d i n g

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
o n t h e b a s is o f m y c o m m u n ic a t i o n w i t h Va s r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : H e n c e I a m - I a m c o m m e n ti n g o n t h i s
…
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t d ir e c tl y a s i t is …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e it w a s th e i r c o m m u n i c a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : M y i n p u t in t o i t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is w h a t w e h a d a g r e e d o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
you

a c t u a ll y

went

w i th

I s u p p o s e m y c lo s i n g c o m m e n t is y o u -

th e

ENS

i n v e s ti g a to r s

to

the

fa r m

in

O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 . T h a t is c o r r e c t . I s i t n o t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

I a m - I a m tr y i n g t o t h in k .

I

c a n n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e d a t e is n o t i m p o r ta n t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h e i m p o r t a n t fa c t is y o u a c c o m p a n i e d

t h e m t o th e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m o n a s i t e v i s i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c ti o n ?

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m ig h t n o t r e c a l l?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m - I a m n o t r e c a ll in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Page …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M ig h t b e a b l e t o h e lp h i m .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g e 4 8 o f t h e R e p o r t s B u n d l e . H o p e f u l ly
it is th e s a m e o n e y o u h a v e . I t s h o u ld b e t h e s a m e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

But just go to page 48 - paginated page

48.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : R e p o r ts B u n d l e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B . R e p o r t s B u n d l e B . T h a t i s w h e r e th e
e m a i ls w e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e t h e e m a il w a s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : The one you were having.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : (Intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON :
20

T h e o n e i n fr o n t o f y o u t h a t h a s th e e m a il th a t w e

w e r e lo o k i n g a t j u s t n o w. J a . P a g e 4 8 .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Page 48.

N o C h a ir.

Th e o n e I a m

lo o k in g a t is H H 1 0 B .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

No, no.

T h a t is - y o u a r e tr y in g t o f i n d

R e p o r ts B u n d l e . R e p o r ts B u n d l e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Small b.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I have - I have got.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Page 14?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : No. 4-8 - 48.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : 4 - 8 . O k a y. I h a v e g o t i t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d i t is j u s t t h a t v e r y f ir s t li n e a t c la u s e
or paragraph 6.1.1.
“In
10

October 2013

E N S v is it e d

th e

Vr e d e

D a ir y

P r o je c t s i t e a c c o m p a n ie d b y Mr T h a b e t h e . ”
Yo u c a n n o t r e c a ll t h a t v is i t? Ve r y fir s t s e n t e n c e a t 6 . 1 .1 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m - I a m th i n k i n g C h a ir. I a m n o t
d e n y i n g it b u t I a m tr y i n g …
CHAIRPERSON : I cannot remember?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

I - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.

I might

h a v e b e e n th e r e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n t h e r e w i th a

number of people.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON : So it is possible that …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

D o in g in v e s ti g a t io n b u t I c a n n o t

r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h th e m .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : H o w m a n y p e o p le - th e r e w e r e - t h e r e
were so many people bec ause …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t h in k t h is is t h e f o u r th in v e s t i g a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o th e r e - t h e r e w e r e m a n y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

In s ta n c e s I w e n t t h e r e .

So I cannot

r e m e m b e r ( c o u g h in g ) . I mi g h t h a v e b e e n t h e r e .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e l l I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t th e i n v e s ti g a to r s

w o u ld p u t a fa c t in t o a r e p o r t …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e y h a v e p r e p a r e d f o r N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y
if t h a t w o u ld b e f a c t e s p e c i a l ly s o m e t h i n g l ik e g o i n g t o o n a s i t e v is i t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O n a s i te v is i t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W o u l d n o t b e v e r i fi a b l e o r - o r c o r r e c t . I f
y o u g o t o p a g e 5 1 o f t h e s a m e r e p o r t . T h e y a c t u a ll y c o n c lu d e - 5 - 1 51:
20

“That is was clear that progress was being made on
t h e c o n s tr u c t io n o f b u i ld i n g s a n d t h a t a n u m b e r o f
cows had been purchased.”
B u t th e y g o o n t o s a y :
“ At 6 .2 . 2 t h a t E N S w a s n o t p r o v id e d w i t h a c c e s s t o
t h e f i n a n c ia l r e c o r d s o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d a s a r e s u l t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o c o m m e n t o n w h e th e r t h e p r o j e c t
is p r o g r e s s i n g .

To d a t e th e d e p a r t m e n t h a s o n ly

in v e s t e d fu n d s i t w a s r e q u ir e d t o in v e s t i n th e
2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 f in a n c ia l y e a r.

No further payments

have been made to our knowledge.

I t is t h e r e f o r e

lik e l y t h a t t h e p r o je c t m a y b e e x p e r i e n c in g c a s h
fl o w d i ffic u lt i e s .”
A n d I r e a d t h is o n l y to i n d ic a te t h a t I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t
t h is r e a l ly i s w h a t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s in t e r e s t is . H o w a r e f u n d s t h a t
10

c o m e fr o m t h e f is c u s b e in g s p e n t o n t h i s p r o j e c t?

Th a t w o u l d h a v e

b e e n t h e i r c o r e m is s i o n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : I do not know if you want to comment on
that.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir - C h a ir I - I d o n o t k n o w

w h y - w h y t h e y w o u l d h a v e s tr u g g le d i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t to g e t th a t
in f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e I h a d g iv e n th e m a c c e s s t o th e d e p a r t m e n t s u p p ly
c h a i n w h i c h h a d a l l t h e s e d o c u m e n ts i n t e r m s o f p a y m e n t s a n d w h a t
p a y m e n t s h a d b e e n d o n e . S o t h e y - th e y h a d b e e n th e r e .
20

T h e y w e r e a b l e t o - t o a c c e s s t h i s i n f o r m a ti o n . S o I - I r e a d
t h a t th e y w e r e n o t a b l e t o a c c e s s i n f o r m a ti o n .

I - I - it - I - I do not

a g r e e th a t t h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e h a d a c c e s s t o t h i s in f o r m a t io n b e c a u s e
t h a t f o r m e d t h e b a s is o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e y w e r e g i v e n a c c e s s
t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t ’s s u p p ly c h a i n t o b e a b l e t o d o s o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Mr T h a b e t h e i f I - m y r e c o ll e c t io n - m y

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll . A t - w h e n w e p o s t p o n e d t h is m a t te r w e g a v e
y o u a fi l e t h a t h a d t h e E N S R e p o r t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B e c a u s e y o u h a d i n d ic a te d t h a t y o u d i d

n o t r e a l ly h a v e a c c e s s t o i t . Yo u m a y w a n t t o r e a d i t a g a in a n d l o o k a t
s o m e o f th e i s s u e s t h a t th e y r a i s e a n d - a n d d e a l w i t h t h o s e b e c a u s e I
t h i n k y o u a r e a t c o m p l e te o p p o s i t e e n d s o f t h e s p e c t r u m in r e l a ti o n t o
w h a t w a s p r o v i d e d , w h a t p e r m is s io n s w e r e g r a n t e d o r n o t g r a n t e d a n d
w h a t p r o g r e s s t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n c o u ld m a k e i n t h e g iv e n c ir c u m s t a n c e s .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir - C h a ir t h e y h a d n e v e r

c o m p la i n e d m e a b o u t r e f u s i n g t h e m a c c e s s t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t. S o t h e y
h a d a c c e s s t o w h a t e v e r t h e y w a n t e d t o i n v e s ti g a te .

What I had said

b e f o r e w a s t h a t t h is r e p o r t c a m e t o m y a t t e n t io n f o r th e fi r s t ti m e in t h e
c o u r t’s r e c o r d s . I - I w a s n e v e r g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d t o t h e
report.
I w o u l d h a v e - b e c a u s e w h e n a r e p o r t is b e in g is s u e d
n o r m a l ly th e y w i ll t h e n g iv e y o u a c o p y a n d s a y t h is is t h e f in d i n g s . D o
y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t t o m a k e o n t h i s r e p o r t ? N o w I w a s n e v e r g iv e n
t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty to d o s o . I w o u ld h a v e c o r r e c t e d a l o t o f t h in g s i n t h e
20

r e p o r t w h ic h m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n p r o p e r ly d o n e i f t h e y w o u l d h a v e
g iv e n m e a d r a f t s a y i n g t h i s is o u r o u tc o m e .
W e c a n n o t f i n d th a t .
t h a t i n t h e r e p o r t.

W e c a n n o t fi n d t h a t .

We cannot find

E i t h e r t o c o r r e c t o r to m a k e a v a il a b l e t h a t

in f o r m a ti o n w h ic h th e y a r e s a y i n g t h e y a r e n o t a b l e to g e t . N o w I s a w
t h is r e p o r t w h e n - w h e n th e fir s t d r a ft t h a t I h a d a ls o m a d e a v a i l a b le t o

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h e C o m m i s s i o n . I g o t t h e f ir s t d r a f t b e f o r e th is r e p o r t w a s is s u e d fr o m
t h e le g i s l a tu r e a n d I h a d a c o p y t h a t w a s g iv e n to m e a t t h e l e g is l a t u r e
w h ic h - w h ic h w a s ta lk in g t o t h e - t o t h e s e i s s u e s b e f o r e th e y - t h e y
released the report.
N o w th e - th e n t h e q u e s ti o n k i c k s in C h a ir w h e r e C o u n s e l
says but how - how was this working?

E v e r y b o d y e ls e h a d a c o p y o f

t h e r e p o r t e x c e p t t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d w h e n I w e n t t o th e le g i s l a tu r e I
w e n t to a n s w e r q u e s t i o n s o n t h e b a s is o f a r e p o r t t h a t I w a s n o t
p r o v i d e d a n d th e n t h a t is w h a t I s a i d a n d I w a s g i v e n a c o p y b y t h e
10

le g i s l a tu r e a n d w h e n t h e y g a v e m e a c o p y t h e y w r o t e o n t o p o f t h e c o p y
t h a t I c a n n o t u s e it f o r a n y o th e r p u r p o s e o th e r t h a n r e s p o n d in g t o t h e
q u e s t io n s o f t h e l e g is l a t u r e w h ic h is w h a t I d i d .
N o w th a t r e p o r t w h ic h I g o t v e r s u s t h i s r e p o r t t h a t w a s i n - in
c o u r t d i d n o t b e a r t h e s a m e d a te b u t I h a d u s e d t h e r e p o r t a t t h e
le g i s l a tu r e fo r r e s p o n d i n g t o - to t h e i r q u e s t io n . N o w m y q u e s ti o n h a s
a l w a y s b e e n a n d i f y o u a l s o r e a d t h e - t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t i t it c o m e s o u t v e r y c l e a r in a n u m b e r o f a r e a s t h a t I d i d n o t h a v e t h e
c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t.
I t s e e m s t h e y h a d a c o p y o f th e r e p o r t b e c a u s e th e y w e r e

20

a s k in g m e q u e s ti o n s a b o u t i t b u t I d id n o t h a v e a n d th e y, fr o m t h e ir
s id e n e v e r - t h e y n e v e r g a v e m e a c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t t o b e a b l e t o - to
t a lk t o th e r e p o r t . U n ti l , I - I t h e n w e n t t o c o u r t a n d t h e n I g o t a c o p y o f
t h e r e p o r t . S o th e - t h a t i s - t h a t h a s b e e n m y p r o b l e m w i t h r e g a r d to
t h is r e p o r t. I w o u l d h a v e m a d e m y i n p u ts b e f o r e th e r e p o r t w o u ld h a v e
been released.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n I d o n o t t h in k I w a n t t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P u r s u e t h i s p a r ti c u la r p o i n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n y - a n y fu r t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w o u ld lik e t o m o v e o n t o t h e n e x t …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A s p e c t . M r T h a b e th e w e a r e b a c k a t y o u r
10

a n n e x u r e s t o t h e 2 0 1 7 a ff id a v i t a n d s o th a t i s H H B . Ye s . Yo u h a v e g o t
t h e r ig h t d o c u m e n t th e r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f y o u lo o k a t fl a g n u m b e r 1 3 - 1 - 3 . T h a t
is a r e p o r t - a p r e s e n ta t io n a c t u a l ly t h a t y o u m a d e t o t h e N a t i o n a l
O ff ic e - t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d Fi s h e r ie s - Fo r e s t r y a n d
Fi s h e r i e s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d w h e n w o u ld y o u h a v e m a d e t h is

p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n y o u r e c a ll ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m - I a m t r y i n g t o r e c a l l s ir. I m a y
not remember the exact date.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J u s t th e p e r i o d b e c a u s e m y a s s u m p ti o n is
t h a t th e p u r p o s e w a s t o g e t fu n d i n g …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : F u n d i n g . T h a t is …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o n d i ti o n a l f u n d in g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o j u s t g iv e u s b a ll p a r k …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I - I …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D a te s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t h in k C h a ir i t - it c o u l d h a v e b e e n - I
d o n o t w a n t t o m a k e a m is t a k e b e c a u s e b e t w e e n u s g o i n g t o t h e
P r o v i n c ia l Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r i t w a s b e f o r e o r
10

a ft e r.

I th in k i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n b e fo r e b e c a u s e w h e n I w e n t to t h e

E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il I w a s t h e n a b l e t o s a y w h a t is - w h a t i s p o s s i b le f r o m
us.
I t h in k it w a s d u r in g t h a t t i m e f o r u s t o b e - to - to m a k e s u r e
a n d a s c e r ta in b u t i t - i t - I a m - I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o t h in k I c a n n o t r e c a l l
p r o p e r ly. I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a f te r t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c i l s a y s to u s g o
a n d - a n d l o o k f o r m o n e y. Th e n w e w e n t a ls o t o - t o N a ti o n a l t o s a y w e
have this proposal and …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I - I w o u ld s u g g e s t t h a t it i s p r o b a b l y t h e
la t t e r b e c a u s e i f y o u g o a n d l o o k a t p a g e 3 - 7 - 3 a n d 3 - 7 - 4 .
20

It would

a p p e a r e s p e c i a lly a t 3 - 7 - 4 th a t y o u a r e s e t ti n g o u t t h e a d d i t io n a l
funding …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R e q u ir e d in t h e c u r r e n t fi n a n c i a l y e a r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

O k a y.

Ja.

I - I t h in k s o C h a ir.

It

c o u l d h a v e b e e n a f t e r I h a v e r e c e iv e d a p p r o v a l to t h e n g o t o N a ti o n a l

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t o p r e s e n t t h i s p r o je c t t o s o u r c e f u n d in g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W h a t I fo u n d in t e r e s ti n g w a s th a t th e

f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y s u b s t a n t i a ll y r e fl e c ts t h e s a m e i n f o r m a t io n t h a t is in
t h is p r e s e n t a ti o n . N o w t h e f e a s i b il it y s tu d y w a s c o m p l e te d a t t h e e n d
o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

M y q u e s ti o n is w h ic h d o c u m e n t i n fo r m e d

t h e c o n t e n t o f th e o th e r ? D i d t h e f e a s i b il it y s tu d y in f o r m t h e c o n te n t o f
t h is d o c u m e n t o r d id t h is d o c u m e n t p o s s i b ly in f o r m t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e
10

f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
d o c u m e n ts .

C h a ir

there

-

there

are

two

T h e r e is a p r e f e a s i b i li ty s tu d y t h a t w a s d o n e w h i c h w a s

s h o r t a n d c o n c is e a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s t h e n t h e d e t a i l e d f e a s ib il i ty
s t u d y. S o th e i n i ti a l fe a s i b i li ty s tu d y a ls o w e n t i n to th e b ig f e a s ib il i ty
s t u d y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

N o w j u s t t o - t o g e t a b s o lu t e c l a r i ty o n

t h is t h e b i g f e a s ib il i ty s tu d y is th e o n e t h a t y o u s ig n e d o ff o n w h e n y o u
s ig n e d o ff o n t h e P h a s e 1 m il e s t o n e s t h a t h a d b e e n c o m p l e t e d . Is t h a t
correct?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir, I a m - I a m tr y in g to b r i n g
it b a c k t o p e r s p e c ti v e a g a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W h e n w e w e n t t o t h e E x e c u tiv e

C o u n c il a n d th e y g a v e u s t h e f ir s t tr a n c h e o f p a y m e n t p a r t o f th a t
m o n e y w a s a l s o t o d o t h a t f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y.

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Hence then when we

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
s ig n e d o ff w e t h e n a ls o g o t t h a t m o n e y t h e n t o g o a n d d o th e d e t a i l e d
f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y b u t t h e n t h e p r e f e a s ib il it y s t u d y w a s a l r e a d y d o n e
w h ic h w a s p o s i t iv e a t t h a t ti m e b u t w e w a n t e d t h e d e t a i le d o n e f o r u s to
be able to say yes indeed.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m s o r r y. I ju s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d y o u r
a n s w e r.

Ar e y o u s a y in g t h e f ir s t 3 0 m i lli o n th a t w a s p a id w a s f o r

p u r p o s e s o f d o i n g t h e p r e f e a s i b i li t y s tu d y o r th e l a r g e r p ie c e o f w o r k ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i t w a s a ls o - i t w a s s u p p o s e d t o
d o t h e la r g e r.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Huh-uh.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

And that is why the l arger was part of

Phase 1?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B e c a u s e t h a t w o u l d b e c o n s is t e n t w i t h

w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d b e f o r e t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f t h e 3 0 m il l io n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Because it was supposed to cover Phase
1?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. C a n I v e r y b r i e fl y t a k e y o u th r o u g h
M r D a w i e M a r a i s ’ r e p o r t w h i c h w e h a v e a ls o f u r n i s h e d y o u w i t h .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

If I a m n o t w r o n g a n d I k n o w y o u h a v e

g iv e n u s o n e o r t w o c o m m e n ts b e f o r e . S o I a m j u s t g o i n g t o g o th r o u g h
t h is v e r y q u i c k l y. T h e b u n d l e y o u n e e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e r e m in d m e w h e r e t o f in d i t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h e b u n d l e C h a ir m a n is R e p o r t’s B u n d l e

B.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t p a g e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e fir s t p a g e w il l b e p a g e 2 - 8 - 8 .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

2 - 8 - 8 d o e s n o t lo o k t h e fir s t p a g e b u t n o I th in k my

2-8-8 …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s p a r a g r a p h 1 . 4 C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g e o n e - th e c o v e r p a g e is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p o r t’s - R e p o r t ’s B u n d l e B ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Report Bundle B Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON : And page 2 -8-8?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e c o v e r p a g e is p a g e 2 - 8 - 4 - t h e c o v e r
page …
CHAIRPERSON : 2-8-4, okay oh.

20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W o u ld b e 2 - 8 - 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 2 - 8 - 5 is t h e n e x t o n e .
CHAIRPERSON :

I t h i n k i t is t h e s a m e th in g . I t is j u s t t h a t I t h o u g h t

y o u s a id t h e fir s t p a g e w o u l d b e 2 - 8 - 8 . M a y b e y o u m e a n t t h e fir s t p a g e
t o w h i c h y o u w a n t t o ta lk .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : I see.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s in fa c t - i t is p a r a g r a p h 1 . 4 . T h a t i s
w h e r e I w a n t t o s t a r t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

And here he - he comments on location

e s s e n ti a l ly a n d t h e - th e e s s e n ti a l p o i n t m a d e a b o u t l o c a t i o n w a s t h a t
t h is w a s a r a th e r a r i d p a r t o f t h e c o u n tr y. I t h a s n e v e r b e e n d a ir y m ilk
c o w fa r m in g t e r r i t o r y.
10

H e s p e a k s to t h e c o a s t - t h e m id la n d s r e a l ly

b e i n g p e r fe c t fo r - fo r d a i r y f a r m in g a n d t h e n h e g o e s in t o th e n u m b e r
of producers who have shutdown.
I d o n o t k n o w - I k n o w y o u r e a d th e - th e d o c u m e n t . Yo u m a y
ju s t w a n t t o g iv e u s a c o m m e n t o n - o n w h a t M r M a r a is ’ i s s u e s a r e w it h
- w i t h r e g a r d t o l o c a ti o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . T h a n k - t h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y b e
- m a y b e I a m - I a m s e e i n g i t d i ff e r e n tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Than the one he sees it.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Before I comment to that I want us to
lo o k a t h is - h is t a b le .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J u s t b e lo w t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON : At - at?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 1.4 under “Background” table number

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o w h is t a b le n u m b e r o n e is lo o k i n g it is g iv in g m o n th s a n d n u m b e r o f m i lk p r o d u c e r s p e r p r o v in c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n d i ffe r e n t y e a r s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I n d i ff e r e n t y e a r s .

January 2006

had

th e

Fr e e

S t a te

Now I - I take it

their highest number

of

m il k

producers.
CHAIRPERSON : 1 067.
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 1 006.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W h ic h w e h a v e r a is e d i n o u r r e p o r t

that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. D i d y o u s a y t h e s a m e n u m b e r ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : No. 1 067 was correct.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 1 067.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , I th o u g h t y o u s a i d 1 0 0 6 .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 1 067.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o w i f y o u lo o k a t h is r e p o r t y o u w il l
s e e h o w q u i c k th e d e c l in e i s s p e c i fi c a lly in th e Fr e e S t a t e . I t w i ll m e a n

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
d a ir y f a r m i n g w a s d o i n g w e ll in t h e Fr e e S t a t e ir r e s p e c t iv e o f t h e
s t a te m e n t th a t h e is s a y in g i t i s i n l a n d .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u m u s t - y o u s a y d e c l i n i n g m e a n s i t w a s d o i n g

w e ll ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e n u m b e r - it w a s d o in g w e l l a n d

t h e n i t s t a r te d t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In - in i ti a l ly ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I n it i a ll y a n d t h e n w e s t a r t e d t o s e e

t h e d e c l in e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , in 2 0 0 6 i t w a s - i n 2 0 0 6 t h e y w e r e - t h e r e w a s a
g r e a t n u m b e r o f m ilk p r o d u c e r s i n t h e Fr e e S t a te .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e n - t h e n i t s ta r t e d g o i n g d o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O n t o p o f th e Fr e e S t a t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B y 2 0 - b e f o r e y o u d o th a t - b y 2 0 - b y J a n u a r y 2 0 1 2
…
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON :

Th e n u m b e r o f m il k p r o d u c e r s i n t h e F r e e S t a t e in

t e r m s o f t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n t h e r e h a d g o n e d o w n - h a d d e c r e a s e d b y
s o m e t h i n g i n t h e r e g io n o f t w o / t h i r d s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B y - b y a l m o s t h a lf C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B y a l m o s t h a lf .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o . I - I t h i n k y o u a r e r ig h t . I a m l o o k in g a t - I
w a s l o o k i n g a t 3 - 2 - 2 w h ic h i s f o r K w a Z u l u - N a t a l .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : By - b y h a l f , j a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: By half.
C H A I R P E R S O N : By a l m o s t h a lf , ja . Yo u a r e r i g h t, ja .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Of course Mr Thabethe Mr Marais does

s a y in t h a t fi r s t p a r a g r a p h th a t h is d e c l in e is :
“ A r e s u l t o f h ig h e r p r o d u c t io n in t h e p a s t u r e b a s e d

10

areas or the coastal areas.

Th e c o s t o f m i lk

p r o d u c t io n in la n d p r o v i n c e s is a k e y fa c t o r d u e t o
t h e in c r e a s e m a iz e p r ic e s a n d o t h e r i n p u t c o s ts .”
S o h e p u t s t h i s d e c li n e t o e n v ir o n m e n t a l f a c t o r s . I a m c a l li n g
t h e m t h a t.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I j u s t w a n t e d y o u t o fa c to r t h a t i n to y o u r

a n s w e r o r to t a k e i n to c o n s id e r a ti o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s - y e s C h a ir. I - I j u s t d o n o t w a n t
20

t o f o r g e t t o a n s w e r y o u r - y o u r f ir s t q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E a r li e r q u e s ti o n j a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , b e c a u s e h e w a s s a y in g t h e F r e e
S t a te is - is a n a r e a w h e r e y o u w o u l d n o t d o d a ir y. T h a t - t h a t is m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g . W h y d i d y o u c h o ic e t h e Fr e e S t a t e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To d a y, j a .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A s Fr e e S t a te …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Because we - we are in the Free

S t a te . W e c a n n o t c h o o s e a n o t h e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Pr o v i n c e t o d o d a i r y …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O t h e r t h a n t h e Fr e e S t a t e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

N a t i o n a ll y w i ll d o i t d i ffe r e n tl y b u t

w e h a d a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e E a s t e r n Fr e e S t a t e is t h e h ig h e s t
r a i n f a l l a r e a , t h e a r i d p a r t o f th e Fr e e S t a t e is t h e w o r s t i n t h e S o u t h e r n
p a r t t o w a r d s G a r ie b , t h a t is t h e a r i d . N o w t h e E a s te r n F r e e S t a t e is a
v e r y h i g h r a i n fa ll a r e a , h e n c e w e h a v e g o t fr u i t p r o d u c t i o n t h e r e , w e
h a v e g o t d a ir y c o n c e n tr a t i o n a n d a ll t h a t , s o I w o u ld n o t a g r e e w i t h h i m
t h a t i n th e Fr e e S t a t e y o u w o u l d n o t d o d a i r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l d o y o u a c c e p t h i s fi g u r e s t h a t b e t w e e n J a n u a r y
2 0 0 6 a n d J a n u a r y 2 0 1 2 , i n s ix y e a r s , if I’ m c o r r e c t , t h e s i tu a ti o n i n t h e
Fr e e S t a t e , w h ic h I t a k e t o r e fe r t o t h e w h o le o f t h e F r e e S t a te .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Th e s i tu a ti o n w a s th a t t h e n u m b e r o f m ilk p r o d u c e r s

w e n t d o w n b y h a l f o v e r s i x y e a r s , d o y o u a c c e p t th a t s ta t e m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a c c e p t t h a t s t a t e m e n t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s , b u t I w a n t t o t a l k to t h a t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
s t a te m e n t a l s o to s a y t h is d e c li n e w a s a n a t i o n a l d e c li n e , i t w a s n o t
o n ly t h e d e c li n e o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e s o t h e e n t ir e c o u n tr y i n te r m s o f
d a ir y p r o d u c ti o n w e w e r e d e c li n in g , n o t o n th e b a s i s o f a r i d b u t o n t h e
b a s is o f c o s t t o d o d a ir y. T h e r e w a s – t h e c o s t o f d o i n g d a ir y v e r s u s
t h e r e t u r n o n t h e p r i c e o f m il k f a r m e r s w e r e n o t m a k i n g i t , h e n c e t h e y
w e r e le a v i n g d a ir y.
N o w t h a t h a s b e e n o u r o p e n in g s ta t e m e n t w h e n w e s t a r t e d
Vr e d e D a ir y, w e s a y w e w a n t t o d e a l w it h t h a t i s s u e b e c a u s e w e s a w in
t h e F r e e S t a t e t h e r a t e a t w h ic h t h e n u m b e r o f d a ir y f a r m e r s w e r e
10

d e c l in i n g w e r e v e r y h i g h , s o w e h a d t o d o s o m e t h in g , s o I a g r e e w i t h
h is s t a t e m e n t , h i s f ig u r e s , b u t th e s t a te m e n t h e is m e n ti o n i n g h e r e i t is
a c o u n tr y s t a te m e n t , i t i s n o t a s t a te m e n t s p e c i fi c t o th e Fr e e S t a t e ,
b e c a u s e e v e r y b o d y h a s b e e n d e c l in in g , s o th a t d e c l in e c a n n o t o n ly
a c c o r d e d t o t h e F r e e S t a t e P r o v i n c e , b e c a u s e i t w a s t h e tr u e s ta t e m e n t
f o r e a c h p r o v i n c e , a ll p r o v i n c e s d e c l i n e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s , c o n t in u e , I a m t r y in g to g i v e y o u

t h e o p p o r tu n i t y M r T h a b e t h e to d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e s i n c l u d in g t h e
s e c o n d q u e s ti o n , b e c a u s e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

Ye s C h a ir I h a v e r e s p o n d e d t o t h e

fir s t q u e s ti o n to s a y t h is i s w h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d h is fi g u r e s
a r e c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

H is fi g u r e s a r e c o r r e c t ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H is f i g u r e s a r e c o r r e c t i n th e t a b l e

b u t t h e r e a s o n i n g b e h in d i t is th e o n e I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

C o n ti n u e .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a m n o t s a y in g th e Fr e e S t a t e d id

n o t d e c l in e b u t it is n o t o n ly th e Fr e e S t a t e t h a t d e c li n e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o it c a n n o t b e a c c o r d e d t o t h e

Fr e e S t a t e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

But you admit that by 2013 there had

b e e n a s u b s t a n t ia l d e c li n e ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Decline yes .
In t h e Fr e e S ta t e .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I n t h e Fr e e S t a te b u t w e h a d

p r o v i n c e s t h a t d e c l in e d m o r e t h a n t h e Fr e e S t a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I f y o u l o o k a t th e l a s t c o lu m n o n t h e

r ig h t in te r ms o f th e p e r c e n ta g e , th e Fr e e S t a t e h a d d e c li n e d b y 5 7 ,
a n d t h e n i f y o u l o o k f u r th e r d o w n t h e o t h e r Pr o v i n c e s h a d d e c li n e d
m o r e th a n 5 7 .
CHAIRPERSON : Mmm.
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

So the issues at play here there were

m a n y is s u e s , t h e y c a n n o t b e a c c o r d e d t o o n e a r e a t o s a y t h is i s e x a c tl y
t h e r e a s o n , s o i t is a n u m b e r o f i s s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l I w o u l d i m a g in e t h a t y o u w o u l d n ’ t g o i n to a

b u s i n e s s s e c t o r w h ic h h a d – w h i c h h a d e ff e c tiv e ly d r i v e n a w a y 5 0 % o f
b u s i n e s s e s u n le s s y o u h a d a s o l u ti o n f o r t h e p r o b le m t h a t d r o v e t h o s e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
b u s i n e s s e s a w a y.

W h a t w a s y o u r s o lu ti o n , w h a t w a s d r iv i n g th e m

away and what was your solution?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, f u r th e r o n in

t h e r e p o r t h e is s a y i n g t h e o n l y r e a s o n w h y in o t h e r c o u n tr i e s d a i r y
f a r m in g is a s u c c e s s is b e c a u s e o f g o v e r n m e n t i n v o l v e m e n t i n h i s
r e p o r t h e s a y s b e c a u s e g o v e r n m e n t is a s s is ti n g th e f a r m e r s , h e
n o r m a l ly c a ll s it i n t h e U n i t e d S t a te s a n d E u r o p e a ta r i ff , in S o u t h
A fr ic a w e c a ll i t a g r a n t . T h a t w a y w e a s s is t t h e f a r m e r s . T h e p r o b l e m
was that you
10

h a d f a r m s t h a t h a d i n fr a s tr u c tu r e fo r d a ir y, t h e

in fr a s tr u c t u r e i s i n e x is te n t a n d t h o s e fa r m e r s a r e p u l li n g o u t t h e y s a y
w e c a n ’t m a k e i t, t h e c o s ts b e c o m e t o o e x p e n s iv e , s o w e n e e d e d a n
in t e r v e n t i o n o f g o v e r n m e n t t o c o m e i n a n d s a y w e w il l m a k e it e a s i e r
f o r y o u b y b r in g in g i n a g r a n t b e c a u s e t h is p r o je c t w a s g o in g t o b e b u il t
w i t h a g r a n t fr o m g o v e r n m e n t , w h ic h is n o t g o i n g to b e c o s tl y f o r t h e
f a r m e r t o b e a b l e t o g o b a c k t o d a ir y f a r m in g b e c a u s e th e d i s ta n c e f o r
t h e s u p p ly w il l b e c l o s e r a n d t h e y w o u ld b e a b le t o fo c u s i n th e
p r o d u c t io n a n d th e n th e c o s t e l e m e n t is th e n g o in g to b e r e d u c e d .
N o w t h a t w a s t h e t h in k i n g t h a t m a d e u s t o g o b a c k t o s a y w e n e e d t o
a s s is t , w e c a n ’ t a ll o w t h e d e c li n e o f d a ir y in t h e F r e e S t a t e , b e i n g t h e

20

f o u r t h l a r g e s t p r o d u c e r o f m e a li e s i n t h e c o u n tr y. I a g r e e w i t h h i m t h e
coastal provinces were doing much better because of environmental
f a c to r s , b u t t h e Fr e e S t a t e d i d v e r y w e ll b e c a u s e in a l l t h e i n la n d
p r o v i n c e s , I w o u l d s a y in t h e in la n d p r o v i n c e s it w a s n u m b e r o n e .
So we wouldn’t say we wouldn’t

d o i t th e r e b e c a u s e w e a r e

in la n d , e n v ir o n m e n t a l is s u e s a r e n o t s o g o o d f o r u s , w h e n b e f o r e th a t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
we had proved that it can be done.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s I r e a l ly, I a m ju s t tr y in g t o m o v e

on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e ll l e t’s t a lk a b o u t t h a t M r Th a b e t h e . I f y o u a r e
in t o m ilk p r o d u c i n g a s a b u s i n e s s p e r s o n a n d o n y o u r o w n I k n o w t h a t
y o u a r e g o i n g t o f a i l , b e c a u s e I k n o w a b o u t fiv e h u n d r e d o th e r m il k
p r o d u c e r s h a v e fa il e d o v e r t h e p a s t s ix y e a r s i n t h e s a m e p r o v i n c e , a n d
it s e e m s th a t t h e r e a s o n y o u fa il e d i s b e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t p r o d u c e
e n o u g h o r y o u – t h e b u s i n e s s r e q u ir e d y o u to s p e n d t o o m u c h o n i t th a n
10

y o u w e r e g e t ti n g in a n d n o w I s a y w e ll I d o n ’ t li k e th is i d e a t h a t y o u a r e
f a il i n g , I w a n t t o a s s is t y o u , I w il l p u t i n m o n e y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

That is correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o n e o f t h e q u e s t i o n s th a t m u s t c r o s s my m i n d is
if I l o o k a t w h a t I m a y h a v e t o p u t i n , t h e m o n e y th a t I m a y h a v e to p u t
in t o a s s is t y o u I m u s t a l s o l o o k a t w h a t y o u w i ll g e t o u t o f t h e b u s i n e s s
a n d s e e w h e t h e r it w il l b e w o r t h i t b e c a u s e i t c a n n o t – i t w o u ld n o t
make sense if on your own if you rent the business on your own you are
g o i n g t o g o u n d e r, I c o m e i n , I p u t i n a l o t o f m o n e y, a n d y o u s ti ll g o
u n d e r.
20

I t m i g h t a ls o n o t m a k e s e n s e e v e n if y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o g o

u n d e r o n c e I h a v e p u t in m y m o n e y i f n e v e r t h e l e s s w h a t e v e r y o u w il l
g e t m a y b e j u s t b e e n o u g h f o r y o u t o fl o a t , y o u k n o w.
N o w t h e q u e s ti o n is w a s th e r e a s t u d y t h a t l o o k e d a t t h a t t o
s a y w h a t w i ll t h e s e fa r m e r s g e t o u t o f t h is r e a l is ti c a lly s p e a k i n g a n d
w h e n w e lo o k a t w h a t g o v e r n m e n t , t h e d e p a r t m e n t w i ll p u t in fo r X
n u m b e r o f fa r m e r s a n d w h a t th e y w i ll g e t o u t w il l i t b e w o r t h w h il e .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
N o w w e k n o w t h a t o v e r w h a t t h r e e y e a r s y o u w e r e g o in g t o p u t
in a b o u t o v e r R 3 0 0 m il li o n , t h a t is a l o t o f m o n e y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

That is correct.

D id y o u k n o w w h a t w a s r e a l is tic a lly e x p e c te d th e y

w o u ld g e t o u t o f th e i r b u s in e s s o v e r t h e t h r e e y e a r s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e h a d l o o k e d

a t th a t , t h e N a t io n a l A g r ic u l t u r a l M a r k e ti n g C o u n c il h a d d o n e a s t u d y,
a n d t h e s tu d y w a s i n d ic a ti n g i f t h is r a t e o f d e c li n e o f d a i r y f a r m e r s i n
t h e c o u n tr y w o u ld p r o c e e d t h e w a y i t w a s p r o c e e d i n g it w o u ld m e a n
10

t h a t t h e c o u n tr y m u s t t h e n c o m e w i t h a p la n o f h o w t o i m p o r t m i lk ,
b e c a u s e o u r o w n d a ir y f a r m e r s w e r e n o t m a k i n g i t .

It m e a n s t h a t ’s t h e

d ir e c t io n b e c a u s e i f y o u d o n ’t c o m e i n w i t h a n in t e r v e n ti o n s t r a t e g y i t
m e a n s y o u w i ll e n d u p w it h a ll t h e s m a ll d a ir y f a r m e r s g o i n g o u t , o n ly
t h e la r g e w il l r e m a i n .
S o th e r e p o r t w a s s a y i n g s o m e t h i n g n e e d e d to b e d o n e , w e
c a n n o t a ll o w i t t o d is a p p e a r b e c a u s e it is a f o o d s e c u r it y is s u e n o w, i f
y o u l o o k a t t h e c o u n t r y, w e c a n n o t r e ly o n m ilk t h a t w e a r e i m p o r t in g .
I t is a p r o b l e m b u t w e h a v e to d o s o m e t h i n g to m a k e s u r e t h a t w e s ti ll
h a v e p r o d u c e r s o f m ilk in t h e c o u n t r y, o t h e r w i s e w e m u s t d e c id e w e a r e
20

g o i n g t o i m p o r t m ilk fr o m s o m e w h e r e , w e h a v e f a i le d p r o d u c in g m ilk ,
we are leaving it.
A n d t h i s i n t e r v e n t i o n w h e n w e l o o k e d a t t h is w e t h o u g h t t h e
is s u e s t h a t w e r e b e in g r a is e d t o b e th e c a u s e o f t h e d e c li n e c o u l d b e
a d d r e s s e d . I f y o u l o o k s p e c i fic a l ly a t t h e Fr e e S t a te , I t h i n k w e h a v e
d is c u s s e d th is a ls o e a r l ie r C h a i r t h a t d a i r y – p e o p l e t h a t a r e s e l li n g

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
m il k a r e p r ic e ta k e r s , s o m e b o d y c o m e s a n d s a y s I c a n b u y y o u r l i tr e o f
m il k f o r s o m u c h , t a k e i t o r l e a v e i t . I t m e a n s y o u c a n n o t d e c i d e h o w
m u c h y o u w a n t t o s e ll y o u r m i lk , t h e y t e l l y o u , y o u a r e a p r ic e t a k e r,
t h e y t e ll y o u w e c a n b u y s o m u c h o f y o u r l itr e o f m il k , i f y o u d o n ’ t t a k e
t h a t p r i c e s o r r y, y o u a r e o u t o f th e m a r k e t .
T h a t ’s w h a t w e w a n t e d t o a d d r e s s , b e c a u s e f o r t h e Fr e e S t a t e
p r o d u c e r s o f m i lk i t w a s v e r y e x p e n s iv e , o n e o f t h e e l e m e n t s th a t w a s
m a k i n g i t v e r y e x p e n s iv e w a s th a t c o s t o f tr a n s p o r t , b e c a u s e t h a t c o s t
o f t r a n s p o r t to c o m e a n d c o ll e c t y o u r m il k it is a c t u a ll y c h a r g e d o n y o u ,
10

t h e s e ll e r, t h a t i t c o s t e d m e t o s e n d a tr u c k t o c o m e a n d c o ll e c t y o u r
m il k , i f I c a n ’ t b u y y o u r m i lk a t t h a t p r ic e .
H e n c e t h e n C h a ir y o u w ill r e m e m b e r I s a i d th a t ’s w h y t h e n w e
r e v e r t e d o n t h e m o d e l P a r a s , b e c a u s e P a r a s w a s t h e o n e s e n d in g t h e
tr u c k s , c o ll e c t in g th e m ilk , b r i n g i n g i t i n to t h e p r o c e s s in g fa c i li ty, h e n c e
w e a r e s a y i n g th is p r o c e s s i n g f a c il i ty w ill s o l v e t h e p r o b l e m o f m o s t o f
t h e f a r m e r s b e c a u s e i t w il l – t h e m il k w i ll b e c o ll e c t e d , c l o s e r a n d t h e
p r i c e w il l b e m u c h b e tt e r, b e c a u s e t h e f a c i li ty, n o b o d y n e e d s to p a y f o r
t h e f a c ili t y b e c a u s e g o v e r n m e n t h a s p a i d fo r t h e fa c i li ty, b e c a u s e i f a
p r i v a t e p e r s o n c o m e s a n d p u t u p t h e f a c il i t y o r h a v e b o r r o w e d m o n e y t o

20

the bank he must make sure he makes enough money to go and pay for
t h e f a c il it y i f t h e fa r m e r h a s d o n e th a t , b u t i n th is in s ta n c e n o b o d y
o w e s i t b e c a u s e g o v e r n m e n t h a s i n v e s t e d in t o th e f a c i li t y f o r a l l
farmers to benefit into it.
N o w th a t w a s o u r f ir s t m o d e l to s a y le t ’s i m p l e m e n t t h is o n e ,
w e b e li e v e i t w i ll s u c c e e d , a n d th e n w e w ill a d d r e s s t h e d e c li n e o f t h e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
f a r m e r s b e c a u s e t h e p r ic e s w il l n o w b e b e tt e r b e c a u s e o f t h e
in v e s t m e n t o f g o v e r n m e n t in t o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e ll y o u s e e i f th e r e a l p r o b l e m w a s tr a n s p o r t a n d
if th a t tr a n s p o r t c o s ts c o u l d b e s o l v e d b y h a v i n g a tr u c k , a g o v e r n m e n t
tr u c k g o i n g a r o u n d th a t is m u c h m o r e l e s s t h a n t h e R 3 0 0 m il li o n t h a t
y o u h a d u s e d fo r t h e fir s t th r e e y e a r s a n d o b v i o u s ly y o u w e r e g o i n g to
s t il l u s e a l o t o f – m a n y m o r e m il li o n s a f t e r. S o w h y d o n ’ t y o u j u s t d o
e x a c tl y t h a t , t o s a y t h i s is w h e r e w e w i l l a s s is t y o u b e c a u s e t h i s is
w h e r e th e p r o b le m is .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , C h a ir i t is n o t o n l y th a t , I h a v e

ju s t p u t t h a t o n e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w h a t w o u l d b e th e o t h e r o n e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

R e m e m b e r in t h is m o d e l th e fa r m e r s

w e r e a l s o s h a r e h o ld e r s i n t o th e f a c to r y, t h i s is n o t p r i v a t e l y o w n e d .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , b u t l e t u s g o b a c k t o w h a t t h e s i t u a t i o n w a s

b e f o r e y o u c a m e w i t h th e p r o d u c e .
MR MBANA PETER THA BETHE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e t h e r e ’s a p r o b le m .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n u m b e r o f m il k p r o d u c e r s g o i n g d o w n d r a s tic a lly.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

A n d y o u s a y o n e o f t h e p r o b l e m s is t h e ir p r ic e s

c a n n o t b e a ffe c te d b y t h e tr a n s p o r t c o s ts .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f g o v e r n m e n t c a n t a k e o v e r t h e tr a n s p o r t c o s ts

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h a t c o u l d g o a c e r t a in , a l o n g w a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w e r e t h e o th e r s ?
MR MBANA PETER THA BETHE:

B u t o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t C h a i r a ls o

b e i n g a s h a r e h o l d e r b e c a u s e i t m e a n s p e r l it r e i f m i lk y o u a r e g e t ti n g
m o r e , m o r e t h a n o n ly s e ll in g t h e m i lk t o t h e p r o c e s s i n g p a r t i t m e a n s
y o u a r e a ls o a p a r tic i p a t o r in t h e v a l u e c h a i n , y o u a r e n o t o n ly s e ll in g
y o u r mi lk to t h e p r i v a t e s e c to r a n d t h a t ’s i t , i t m e a n s y o u r b e n e fi c i a ti o n
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n t h e f a r m e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

The farmer yes.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t is w h y d o n ’ t y o u s a y
o k a y h e r e id e n ti f y f a r m e r s w h o a r e m ilk p r o d u c e r s , a n d s a y w e
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th is i s w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m li e s , th a t ’s w h e r e w e w il l
come in.

Yo u w i ll c o n t in u e a s n o r m a l b u t o u r – w e w i ll g iv e y o u a

h e l p i n g h a n d in r e la t io n to c o s ts b u t o t h e r w i s e y o u c o n ti n u e a n d t h e n
y o u s h o u l d b e a b le t o s e ll m o r e o f y o u r m il k b e c a u s e n o w y o u d o n ’t
h a v e t o w o r r y a b o u t tr a n s p o r t c o s t s , g o v e r n m e n t w i ll t a k e c a r e o f th o s e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

CHAIRPERSON :

I t is n o t e n o u g h C h a ir.

Ye s , w h a t w e r e th e o t h e r c h a l l e n g e s , i f t h a t w a s

s o l v e d in t h a t w a y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s , t h a t i s w h y I a m s a y in g C h a ir i f

y o u a r e i n – i f y o u a r e p a r t o f o w n e r s h i p o f th e c o m p a n y t h a t d o
p r o c e s s in g y o u w il l g e t m o r e m o n e y t h a n o n ly b e i n g p r o v id e d w i th t h e
tr a n s p o r t s o i t b e c o m e s a lu c r a t iv e b u s i n e s s t o g o i n to .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e y o u w il l a l s o g e t m o n e y i n

t h e p r o c e s s in g w h ic h w h e n y o u a r e o n ly s e l li n g , y o u a r e n o t b e n e f ic ia r y
t o i t , s o i t w il l t h e n e n c o u r a g e e v e n m o r e f a r m e r s to g e t i n t o i t b e c a u s e
y o u d o n ’ t o n ly g e t t h e m o n e y f o r y o u r m i lk a n d tr a n s p o r t in g f o r fr e e b u t
y o u a ls o g e t m o n e y a f te r y o u r m i lk h a s b e e n p r o c e s s e d .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t t h a t w a s t h e o n l y o t h e r o n e o r w e r e th e r e o t h e r

is s u e s , c o s ts a n d b e in g s h a r e h o l d e r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

C o s ts a n d b e i n g s h a r e h o l d e r th a t

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a n s p o r t c o s ts a n d b e in g s h a r e h o l d e r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , j a , t h a t w a s th e p a r t t h a t w i ll t h e n

a s s is t th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d h e n c e t h e y w il l t h e n h a v e

e n o u g h m o n e y to b e a b l e to d e a l w i th t h e i s s u e o f t h e p r o d u c t i o n c o s t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r Th a b e t h e o f c o u r s e t h e is s u e o f w a t e r

I a m s ti ll d e a li n g w it h t h e lo c a t io n .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h e n y o u t a l k e d a b o u t r a i n f a ll

p a t t e r n s e tc e t e r a , t h a t i s n o t a r id . Wa t e r is c r i ti c a l t o r u n n in g a d a ir y
f a r m y o u w il l a g r e e w it h t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , C h a ir w a t e r is c r i t ic a l b u t t h e

E a s t e r n Fr e e S t a t e is n o t a r id , w e d o n ’ t h a v e a p r o b l e m o f r a i n f a ll .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : Mmm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

T h a t w i ll b e a c o n c e r n i n a n a r i d

area.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t i s a v i e w t h a t y o u h o ld M r T h a b e t h e .

I f w e tu r n t o p a g e 2 9 3 o f t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t s o i t ’s 2 9 3 , I j u s t w a n t u s
t o lo o k a t t h a t f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y a n d h i s c o m m e n t r e g a r d in g w a t e r w h i c h
is r i g h t a t t h e b o t t o m o f th a t r e p o r t , r e s o u r c e s f o r s it e e v a l u a t i o n .
Wa t e r is o n e o f t h e m a j o r c o n s i d e r a ti o n s w h e n e s ta b l is h i n g a d a ir y, a
s u s t a i n a b l e c l e a n s o u r c e o f w a t e r is v e r y i m p o r t a n t .
10

T h e r e is n o c l e a r

in d i c a t io n i n t h e f e a s ib il it y s tu d y o n t h e s o u r c e o f w a te r, y o u w o u l d
agree with that comment?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

C h a ir I d o n o t a g r e e , b e c a u s e w e

h a v e a lic e n s e f o r m Wa t e r A ff a ir s f o r a c c e s s t o w a t e r, w h ic h w a s i s s u e d
b y th e D e p a r t m e n t o f Wa t e r A ff a ir s , s o t h e p r o b l e m h e m ig h t h a v e h a d
h e o n ly f o c u s t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t h e w a s p r o v i d e d w i th w e r e t h r e e
d o c u m e n ts w i th o u t a n y o t h e r s u p p le m e n t a r y i n f o r m a t io n a n d h e n e v e r
c a m e b a c k to t h e D e p a r t m e n t t o s a y b u t I d o n o t s e e a n y t h i n g t h a t w ill
a s s is t y o u i n h e r e , w h a t o t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n d o w e h a v e , s o – a n d h e h a s
a d is c l a i m e r o n th a t in t h e r e p o r t, t o s a y t h is is t h e o n ly d o c u m e n t s t h a t
20

w e r e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o m e b y th e i n v e s ti g a to r, b e c a u s e h e w a s n o t
in t e r a c ti n g w i t h u s , t h e in v e s ti g a t o r p r o v i d e d h i m w i t h t h is d o c u m e n t
and he had no access to any other document because they were not
a s k e d fr o m u s , b u t w e h a d p e r m is s i o n f r o m Wa t e r A ff a ir s t o a c c e s s
w a t e r, a n d h e n c e I s a y I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h t h e s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l w h e n y o u s a y y o u h a d p e r m is s i o n f r o m Wa t e r

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A ff a ir s to a c c e s s w a te r t h a t g i v e s m e t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t y o u a r e
t a lk in g a b o u t a r i v e r o r r iv e r s o r d a m s a s o p p o s e d to d e p e n d in g o n t h e
c li m a t e a s s u c h .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Th a t

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e t h e r i v e r s .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

That gave access to the dam that

w a s o n t h e fa r m a n d a l s o a c c e s s t o d o b o r e h o le s o n t h e fa r m f o r
a d d it i o n a l w a te r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I d o n ’ t k n o w e n o u g h a b o u t b o r e h o le s , s o I d o n ’ t
k n o w w h e t h e r th e p o s i ti o n i s t h a t a s l o n g a s y o u d ig d e e p e n o u g h y o u
w i ll fi n d w a t e r o r w h e t h e r i t i s o n l y c e r t a in a r e a s w h e r e y o u w il l b e a b le
t o d o b o r e h o le s a n d f i n d w a t e r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , i t d e p e n d s o n th e s tr e n g t h o f th e

a r e a C h a ir, s o m e a r e a s t h e w a t e r a v a i la b ili t y s t r e n g th i s l o w, i n s o m e
a r e a s t h e w a t e r a v a il a b i li ty s tr e n g t h is h ig h d e p e n d i n g o n t h e w a t e r
t a b le , a n d a ls o d e p e n d i n g o n t h e r a in f a l l i n t h e a r e a w h e r e y o u a r e , a n d
t h e a r e a t h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t h a d m o r e t h a n e n o u g h w a te r.
CHAIRPERSON :
20

S o y o u ’r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e a r e a w h e r e t h e f a r m w a s ,

f a r m i s , is s u c h th a t i n t e r m s o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r fi n d i n g w a te r
u s i n g b o r e h o le s t h a t y o u w o u ld e a s i ly h a v e b e e n a b le t o
b o r e h o l e s a n d fi n d w a te r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

Page 108 of 203

have

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : And that is based on the knowledge of the climate in
t h e p a r tic u l a r a r e a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In t h e p a r ti c u l a r a r e a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

And I agree with him when he says

w a t e r is k e y in a d a i r y, y o u w o u l d n o t s t a r t a d a ir y w h e n y o u a r e n o t
h a p p y w i t h t h e a m o u n t o f w a t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

C h a i r m a n I n o ti c e th a t i t is j u s t o n o n e

o ’c l o c k , th is m i g h t b e a c o n v e n i e n t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

To t a k e th e l u n c h b r e a k .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u , l e t u s ta k e t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t , w e
w i ll r e s u m e a t t w o . W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

Al l r i s e .

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n ti n u e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Mr Th a b e t h e m y

n e x t q u e s ti o n i s o n e w h e r e I h a v e tr ie d t o c o ll e c t a f e w th i n g s fr o m t h e
Maree Report.

S o Mr M a r e e a l s o q u e s ti o n s th e ir r i g a ti o n a n d

m e c h a n is a ti o n c o s t , t h e r a i n fe d m e c h a n is a ti o n c o s t , t h e c o s t o f c a t tl e
a n d t h e c o s t o f t h e b u l k c o o li n g ta n k s , t h e d a ir y p r o d u c ts m a n u f a c t u r in g
p l a n t a n d p a s t e u r is e r, t h e a n n u a l f e e d p l a n t a n d g r a i n o ld s e e d m il l .
Yo u w i ll fi n d th is a t Ta b le 5 o n p a g e 2 9 5 o f th e s a m e d o c u m e n t t h a t i s

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
R e p o r ts B .

S o m y q u e s t i o n to y o u is y o u h a v e n o w r e a d t h o s e

observations made by Maree.

D i d y o u i n te r r o g a te t h e c o s t i n g i n t h e

s a m e m a n n e r th a t h e d id w h e n y o u w e r e g iv e n th is – th e f e a s i b i li ty
s t u d y, t h e b u s in e s s p la n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I have went

t h r o u g h h is r e p o r t o n p a g e 2 9 4 w h e r e h e w a s t a lk i n g t o a n u m b e r o f
is s u e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t w h a t I w a n t t o g e t i n to C h a ir w a s
10

– I a m tr y i n g t o g e t t o th e e x a c t s ta t e m e n t w h e r e h e t a lk s a b o u t –
b e c a u s e h e h a s g o t a d is c la i m e r o n t h i s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

W h e r e h e s a y s h is c o m m e n t is o n l y

s u b j e c t t o a n e c o n o m i s t to d o t h e e v a l u a ti o n a n d c o m p a r i s o n .

W h ic h

h e s a y s h e h a s n o t d o n e . W h ic h m a k e s i t v e r y d i ffi c u l t f o r m e t o a g r e e
with him because it is just his observation but he has not done any
e x e r c is e to d o c o m p a r i s o n t o s a y y e s i n d e e d . B e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t s a y
it i s e x p e n s iv e w h e n y o u h a v e n o t d o n e c o m p a r is o n to s a y w h a t in f o r m s
y o u t o s a y th is i s t o o e x p e n s iv e .
20

s u b s t a n t ia t e d .

S o i t i s a s ta t e m e n t t h a t c a n n o t b e

H e s h o u ld h a v e g o n e a n d s a i d th is is t h e p r ic e o f th is

a n d th is is th e p r ic e o f t h i s w h y d i d y o u p a y s o m u c h .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o a r e y o u – a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t w h e n t h e
f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w a s d o n e , w h e n th e b u s in e s s p l a n w a s d o n e , t h e o n e s
t h a t w e r e s u b m i tt e d t o y o u .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.

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A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u h a d s p e c ia li s ts w h o in t e r r o g a t e d t h e
is s u e s s u c h a s e c o n o m i s ts a n d w o u l d h a v e d e a l t w i t h th e c o s ti n g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R TH A B E T H E : Ye s w h a t – w h a t w e p r o v i d e d C h a ir i n
o u r s u b m i s s i o n w e r e c o s t e s t i m a te b u t w h e n w e w e r e i m p l e m e n t in g
t h e n w e p r e s e n t e d th e a c tu a l c o s t . N o w h e a s s e s s e d t h e p la n n o t t h e
a c t u a l c o s t . B e c a u s e t h o s e w e r e tw o d i ffe r e n t th i n g s . H e lo o k e d a t t h e
d o c u m e n t a n d h e d i d th e a s s e s s m e n t in t e r m s o f t h e p l a n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s t h a t i s w h a t h e h a d b e fo r e h i m .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Ye s .

B e c a u s e th e r e y o u p u t

e s ti m a t i o n o f th e c o s t a n d th e n w h e n y o u t h e n i m p le m e n t th e p r o j e c t
then you get actual.

S o m e ti m e s i t i s c h e a p e r s o m e t i m e s i t m o r e

e x p e n s iv e th a n w h a t is o n t h e p l a n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

N o w th a t a c t u a l d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u a r e

t a lk in g a b o u t w h a t is – w h a t – w h e r e is i t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

T h e a c t u a l d o c u m e n t s C h a ir w h e r e

t h e a c tu a l c o s t a r e i t is w h e n y o u i m p l e m e n t a n d th e n y o u – w e h a v e
t h o s e m o n t h ly r e p o r t s t o s a y t h is w a s d o n e a n d th is w a s t h e c o s t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O h I s e e . N o th e n I a m w it h y o u .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : If you are saying that the numbers you are
t a lk in g a b o u t t h a t y o u c a n r e l a te t o a r e i n th e m o n th ly r e p o r t s a n d t h e
q u a r t e r l y r e p o r ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Because he assessed the original

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
d o c u m e n t b e f o r e t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR MBANA PET ER THABETHE : Then on the basis of that he says it
lo o k s e x p e n s i v e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : And he…
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

But he does not say it looks

e x p e n s iv e h e s a y s i t i s a n e x p e n s i v e e x e r c is e .

S t il l I s a y to h i m h e

c o u l d s ti ll h a v e d o n e c o m p a r is o n t o s a y w h y h e s a y s e x p e n s iv e
b e c a u s e h e h a s c h e c k e d th is tr a c t o r a n d th is tr a c to r – th is s iz e o f a
10

tr a c t o r i n th e m a r k e t t h is is w h a t is c o s ts a n d i n y o u r p l a n i t s a y s t h i s
m u c h t h e r e f o r e w e d o n o t a g r e e w i th y o u .

H e is g i v i n g a g e n e r a l

s t a te m e n t th a t t h is is e x p e n s iv e , t h i s is e x p e n s iv e w i th o u t d o i n g a n y
c o m p a r is o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . N o I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d w h a t y o u h a v e
s a i d a n d w i ll d e a l w it h th e d e t a i l w h e n w e g e t t o t h e m o n t h l y r e p o r ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t n o w t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d tr a c to r s . D o
y o u – I – th e e v id e n c e w e h a v e h e a r d is t h a t th e d e p a r t m e n t s u p p li e d a
n u m b e r o f tr a c to r s t o t h is p a r tic u l a r p r o j e c t , d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u – a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t th e d e p a r t m e n t
d i d n o t s u p p ly tr a c to r s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :
There

was

a s e p a r a te

Ye s .

N o w I th in k h e i s c o n f u s i n g .

program called

Il e m a / L e t s e m a

where

the

d e p a r t m e n t s u p p l i e d tr a c t o r s in t h a t a r e a t o a s s i s t s m a l l fa r m e r s t o d o

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ploughing.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o t h o s e tr a c t o r s w e r e n o t m e a n t f o r
t h is p r o j e c t .

Th e r e w a s in a p a r ti c u la r s t a g e w h e r e w e r e q u e s te d

a s s is t a n c e fr o m th o s e f a r m e r s t o c o m e a n d a s s i s t b e f o r e w e c o u ld
a c q u ir e t r a c t o r s f o r t h e p r o j e c t b u t t h e y w e r e n e v e r b o u g h t a n d s u p p l ie d
by the department.

In fa c t th o s e tr a c to r s c a m e f r o m N a ti o n a l.

Th e y

w e r e d o n a t e d to t h e Pr o v i n c e a n d th e r e w e r e s p e c i f ic f a r m e r s t h a t h a d
t o b e a s s i s te d w i t h t h o s e tr a c t o r s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u k n o w t h a t is a b i t s t r a n g e b e c a u s e w e
h a d t h e e v i d e n c e o f th e M r B a s s o n w h o s a i d h e h a s a n u m b e r o f
tr a c t o r s b e l o n g i n g to th e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t a r e p a r k e d in h is y a r d – o n
h is p r e m is e s .

N o w i f y o u h a v e g o t d e p a r t m e n ta l s t o c k a n d t h a t i s i n

Vr e d e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

D e p a r t m e n t a l tr a c to r s t h a t a r e p a r k e d in

Vr e d e y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t y o u w o u l d r a t h e r s t il l u s e m o n e y t h a t h a s
b e e n a ll o c a t e d t o th e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o j e c t t o b u y n e w tr a c t o r s a n d n o t
tr y a n d u s e s t o c k t h a t b e l o n g s t o g o v e r n m e n t t h a t is s it t in g i n Vr e d e
20

a n d d o i n g n o th in g a t a ll .

W h a t is t h e d is t a n c e ?

A fi v e k i lo m e t r e

d is t a n c e b e t w e e n B a s s o n ’s p r e m is e s a n d t h e f a r m – l e s s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : Ja. Chair the department do not have
tr a c t o r s . H e m i g h t h a v e b e e n r e f e r r in g – I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h tr a c t o r s
h e w a s r e f e r r in g – h e m ig h t h a v e b e e n r e f e r r i n g to t h e tr a c t o r s o f t h e
p r o j e c t w h ic h w e r e b e i n g s e r v ic e d b y h i m t h a t is t h e Vr e d e D a ir y

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
P r o je c t b e c a u s e th e p r o j e c t h a s b e e n s e r v ic in g t h o s e t r a c t o r s a n d
r e p a ir i n g t h o s e tr a c t o r s w i t h h i m .

H e m ig h t h a v e a lt e r n a tiv e l y b e e n

r e fe r r i n g to t h e s e tr a c t o r s w h i c h w e r e g iv e n to f a r m e r s b y th e
d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h a r e i n t h e h a n d s o f t h e f a r m e r s .

S o th e y a r e n o t

d e p a r t – t h e y a r e n o t tr a c t o r s t h a t b e lo n g s t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f I – m y r e c o l l e c ti o n s e r v e s m e w e l l t h e
d o n a ti o n w a s m e n ti o n e d i n Mr J a n k ie ls o h n ’s e v id e n c e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

M r B a s s o n s p o k e a b o u t tr a c to r s th a t

b e l o n g e d a s I h a v e – I u n d e r s to o d h i m t o t h e p r o je c t .

And as you say

t h a t h e h a d b e e n r e p a ir in g . S o I t h in k th a t t h e s e a r e t w o s e p a r a t e s e ts
o f tr a c t o r s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I th in k t h a t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t b e c a u s e

t h e r e a r e t w o d i ffe r e n t i n d iv id u a l s w h o g a v e u s t h i s e v i d e n c e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

So I am not

s u r e w h a t – w h i c h t r a c t o r s M r B a s s o n is r e fe r r i n g to w h e th e r t h o s e o f
t h e p r o j e c t o r h e i s r e f e r r in g to t h e s e t o f tr a c t o r s th a t w e r e d o n a te d to
farmers.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : But…
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h o n e s w e r e

s t a n d in g w i t h h i m .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B u t if y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o tr a c t o r s t h a t

b e l o n g e d t o t h e p r o je c t th a t h a v e b e e n r e p a ir e d b y h i m t h a t a r e s ti ll
s i tt i n g in h is p r e m i s e s y o u w o u l d b e c h e c k in g th e in v o ic e s t o s e e w h y a

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
n e w tr a c t o r is b e i n g p u r c h a s e d w h e r e a s t h r e e m o n t h s b a c k a t r a c t o r
w a s i n f a c t p u r c h a s e d . Is t h a t h o w y o u w o u l d m o n it o r t h e e x p e n d i t u r e
o n tr a c t o r s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a ir.

Th e r e is a p l a n o f h o w

m a n y tr a c t o r s n e e d t o b e b o u g h t f o r w h a t p u r p o s e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o w t h o s e tr a c t o r s a t a g i v e n t i m e

w i ll g o t h e r e f o r r e p a i r s , t h e y w i ll g o t h e r e f o r s e r v ic e s . N o w I a m n o t
s u r e w h y h e r e f e r r e d t o th o s e s t a n d i n g b u t i t c o u l d b e t h a t w h e n t h e
10

p r o j e c ts c a m e to a s t o p b e c a u s e th e n th e y w e r e n o t o p e r a ti o n a l
a n y m o r e th e n h e m i g h t b e r e f e r r i n g t o th o s e tr a c to r s s ti ll s t a n d i n g . I d o
n o t k n o w I a m j u s t – b e c a u s e I a m n o t a b l e to s a y e x a c t l y w h a t tr a c t o r s
is h e r e fe r r i n g t o t h a t a r e s ta n d i n g w i th h i m . I d o n o t – i t is d i ff ic u l t fo r
m e t o a n s w e r C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is f i n e b e c a u s e t h e p o i n t r e a l ly I h a d
b e e n m a k i n g a t t h e b e g i n n i n g w a s t h e e x t e n t to w h ic h s t o c k t h a t is
a v a i la b le i s u s e d f o r th e d a ir y p r o j e c t a s o p p o s e d to p u r c h a s i n g n e w
it e m s w h e n t h e m o n e y f o r t h e n e w i t e m c o u l d b e u s e d fo r s o m e t h i n g
t o t a lly d i ff e r e n t .

20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is w h a t I w a s tr y i n g to e x p l o r e a t t h e
ti m e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

Ja.

N o t h e r e w a s n o t s to c k r e a d i ly

a v a i la b le C h a ir h e n c e w e h a d to p u r c h a s e tr a c t o r s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t e v e r y t h i n g t h a t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
w a s p u r c h a s e d f o r t h e d a ir y f a r m w a s n e w ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u M r Th a b e t h e I w a n t to m o v e o n
b e c a u s e w e h a v e a l o n g w a y t o g o a n d w e h a v e g o t a c o u p l e h o u r s t h is
a ft e r n o o n . I f w e th e n g o b a c k to y o u r a n n e x u r e s t o t h e 2 0 1 7 a ffi d a v i t
M P T 1 4 – A n n e x u r e 1 4 a t Ta b n u m b e r 1 4 w a s n o t r e c e iv e d . Th is is t h e
p r e l i mi n a r y – a ll t h e d e t a i l e d b u s in e s s p l a n . I w a s n o t t o o s u r e w h ic h
o n e y o u w e r e r e a l ly r e f e r r i n g t o . I f w e j u s t g o to p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o f y o u r
a ffi d a v i t . S o j u s t g o t o t h e f r o n t o f t h a t s a m e d o c – s a m e f i le . I f y o u –
10

p a r a g r a p h 1 6 y o u w i ll fi n d o n p a g e 2 4 9 .
t M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : My a p o l o g y C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h i c h fl a g n u m b e r ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t 1 4 , 1 4 a n d 1 4 s a y s
n o t r e c e iv e d . S o w h e n y o u g o to t h e a ffi d a v i t to s e e w h a t i t is th a t h a s
n o t b e e n r e c e iv e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

We go to paragraph 16.

Yo u k n o w w e

w e r e tr y i n g to g iv e c o n t e n t r e m e m b e r M r T h a b e th e t o w h a t y o u s a y i n
20

y o u r a ff i d a v i t . W e h a d t h e a ffi d a v i t b u t n o a n n e x u r e s . S o n o w w e a r e
ju s t p u t t in g th e t w o t o g e t h e r. S o M P T 1 4 r e f e r s to t h e p r e l i m i n a r y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O r t o th e d e t a i le d b u s i n e s s p l a n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A s p e r t h e b i n d in g a g r e e m e n t Es t in a
w a s r e q u e s te d to d e v e l o p a fe a s i b il i ty s t u d y a n d a b u s i n e s s p l a n .

Page 116 of 203

I

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
t h i n k C h a i r t h i s is t h e b i g b u s i n e s s p l a n .

T h e l a te s t o n e n o t t h e

p r e l i mi n a r y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

So if you go Mr Thabethe to Reports

bundle B – Reports bundle B.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th a t is t h e o n e w e w e r e u s i n g ju s t n o w.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t w e w e r e u s i n g e a r li e r C h a i r m a n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a th a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

A n d y o u g o t o p a g e 3 – n o t h is i s a

f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. W e g o t o p a g e 3 2 1 . C a n y o u i d e n t if y th is a n d t e l l th e
C h a ir m a n w h e t h e r t h is i s th e p r e li m i n a r y o r t h e fu ll b u s i n e s s p la n t h a t
w a s c o m m is s i o n e d ? P a g e 3 2 1 R e p o r t s b u n d l e B .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C h a ir th e o n e w h e r e w e a r e n o w
is t h e p r e li m i n a r y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I s t h i s t h e p r e l i m in a r y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is i s th e o n ly c o p y a s f a r a s I a m a w a r e
t h a t th e c o m m i s s io n h a s . Is t h e r e a b ig g e r d o c u m e n t th a n t h is ?

20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th e r e is a b i g g e r b u s i n e s s p la n th a n
t h is o n e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Yo u m i g h t a s w e ll t e l l u s a b o u t t h e

f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w h i c h i s t h e v e r y n e x t d o c u m e n t a t 3 3 1 ju s t n o w th a t
w e t a lk i n g a b o u t f in a l a n d i n te r i m d o c u m e n ts . T h e c o m m i s s i o n h a s

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
u n d e r s t o o d c e r t a i n ly th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s h a v e u n d e r s to o d th a t th a t
d o c u m e n t t h a t r u n s fr o m p a g e 3 3 1 a l l t h e w a y t o p a g e 3 9 6 i s th e fi n a l
f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E x c e ll e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t h i n k w h a t w e a r e h a v i n g h e r e th is is
– t h e f ir s t d o c u m e n t is th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 2 – p a g e 3 2 1 y o u s a y i s th e p r e li m i n a r y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is th e p r e l i m in a r y.
10

CHAIRPERSON : And then page 332 – 331.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is th e b i g g e r p l a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th e b i g – is th e fi n a l ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s t h a t o n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f t h e f e a s i b i li ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y j a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o t h e y a r e j u s t t o g e t h e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To g e t h e r y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y a r e d i ff e r e n t …

20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e y a r e tw o d i ff e r e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . T h e n w e h a v e A n n e x u r e
1 5 w h ic h is th e d e v i a t i o n m e m o r a n d u m . W e h a v e d is c u s s e d th a t w e d o
n o t n e e d t o g o in t o t h a t a t t h is p o i n t in t i m e . I f w e g o t o 1 6 . N o w a t
16, Annexure 16 you have given us Annexure 16A, B and C.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

H a v e w e m o v e d a w a y fr o m t h e f e a s i b il it y

study?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

O h C h a ir m a n w e a r e b a c k y e s – w e a r e

b a c k to H H …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I s h o u l d c l o s e i t . Yo u w il l c o m e b a c k t o i t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D o n o t c lo s e it C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

H H 1 0 w e a r e b a c k w it h t h e a ffi d a v i t a n d

the annexures.
CHAIRPERSON : And the…
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a r e a t Ta b n u m b e r 1 6 .
CHAIRPERSON : 16?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 1 6 C h a ir m a n . A n d h e r e y o u h a v e a c t u a l ly
– it i s j u s t th a t t h e p h o to c o p y i n g h a s c h o p p e d o ff s o m e o f t h e l e t te r s a t
t h e t o p . B u t y o u h a v e g o t a 1 6 A w h ic h is o n p a g e 4 2 4 . 1 6 B is le g ib le
on page 425. 16C…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll – m y o n e d o e s n o t r e fl e c t A o h y o u s a y i t i s 1 6 A
20

a n d th e …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s t h e A h a s b e e n c h o p p e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja

16 A and the A has been…

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A l i t tl e C h a ir m a n y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja okay I think we need to
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R e i n s t a te i t.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON :

M a k e s u r e t h a t o t h e r w is e o n e th i n k s t h a t o n e is n o t

o n t h e r i g h t p a g e . O k a y th e n t h e n e x t o n e is 1 6 B
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h a t i s 1 6 A . Th e n e x t o n e C h a ir m a n i s
16B.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t o n e is le g i b le . A n d th e th ir d o n e is
16C.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

Th o s e a r e t h e o n e s I w a n t t o d e a l w it h

r ig h t n o w. Yo u m e n ti o n t h e m a t p a r a g r a p h 1 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .

So if

w e g o t o th e fr o n t a g a in g i v e u s c o n te x t ?
CHAIRPERSON : What did you say these are at 16A, 16B and 16C?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n i t is a r e c o r d o f p a y m e n ts t h a t
w e r e m a d e t o E s ti n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To E s t i n a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y a r e n o t v e r y l e g ib l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t I w ill – I w il l d e a l w i t h t h e m a s b e s t I
can.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

So if we go to paragraph 18.

a c t u a ll y s e t o u t in t h is s c h e d u l e h e r e C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y ja .

Page 120 of 203

They are

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I n f a c t Mr Th a b e t h e w h a t y o u h a v e a t

paragraph 18 and then you explain it in 19.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Is – t h e s e a r e th e p a y m e n ts t h a t y o u

b e li e v e d h a d b e e n m a d e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To Es t in a .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. O f c o u r s e w e h a v e a g r e e d t h a t t h e
10

fir s t R 3 0 m i ll i o n t h a t w a s p a i d i n J u l y 2 0 1 2 i s n o t r e c o r d e d h e r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B e c a u s e a t t h e t i m e y o u p r e p a r e d t h is

a ffi d a v i t y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e – I h a d n o t
r e c e i v e d p r o p e r c o n f ir m a t io n w h ic h I h a d l a te r t h e n r e c e i v e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s .

S o y o u k n e w th a t th e m o n e y h a d

b e e n p a id b u t b e c a u s e n o b o d y c o u l d g iv e y o u t h e r e c e i p ts .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE : The proof of the payment yes.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
20

Yo u w e r e r e l u c t a n t t o d e a l w i th t h e

amount?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. B u t w e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e I h a d t o p r o v i d e e v id e n c e to
t h a t i n a t t a c h m e n t b u t th e n l a t e r t h e n w e g o t t h a t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . S o …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON :

L e t – th e f ir s t l i n e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 8 s a y s t h e t a b l e

s h o w s t h e – r e f le c t s t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h p a y m e n t w a s d o n e . D o e s t h e
m a n n e r i n w h i c h p a y m e n t w a s d o n e r e fe r t o t h e ti m e s w h e n p a y m e n ts
w e r e m a d e a n d t h e a m o u n ts th a t w e r e m a d e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : That were paid.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : If – s o i n a f i n a n c i a l y e a r 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 i f y o u
lo o k a t t h a t s c h e d u le a t 1 8 – a t p a r a g r a p h 1 8 t h e a m o u n ts w e r e
R 3 4 9 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . Yo u h a v e g o t it t h e r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . Th e s e c o n d a m o u n t w a s R 3 0 m i ll io n .
Yo u h a v e i t t h e r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t is th e s e c o n d i te m . A n d t h e s e a r e

b o t h A p r i l p a y m e n ts t h a t w e r e e ff e c te d .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te n d a y s a p a r t h e y ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J u s t a fe w d a y s a p a r t C h a ir m a n y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s .

A n d th e n t h e t h i r d o n e is

R 1 9 0 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . T h a t is th e th ir d o n e . T h a t is 1 6 .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s e ig h t d a y s l a t e r th a n t h e s e c o n d o n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

N o w I h a v e a c o p y o f th e – t h e A G ’s

r e p o r t . M y c o ll e a g u e i s j u s t g e tt i n g t h e r e fe r e n c e I m a d e th e e r r o r o f
n o t p u t ti n g t h e r e f e r e n c e i n h e r e . I n o r m a l ly w r i te i t i n . M y a p o l o g ie s
C h a ir j u s t i f y o u w o u l d p l e a s e i n d u l g e u s .

In essence a total of

R 11 3 9 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s p a i d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n th a t p a r t ic u l a r fi n a n c i a l y e a r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a c t u a l ly w a n t to p o i n t y o u t o a p a r t ic u l a r
n o t e i n t h a t A G ’s r e p o r t . W e ll I w i ll c o m e b a c k t o t h i s p o i n t b e c a u s e I
a c t u a ll y a m t r y i n g t o c o v e r a b i t o f t i m e .

C o m i n g b a c k t o th e s a m e

p a r a g r a p h 1 8 w e t h e n fi n d th a t in 2 0 1 4 a n a m o u n t o f R 3 0 m i ll io n w a s
paid.

T h a t y o u w i ll fi n d a t 1 6 E – A n n e x u r e 1 6 E .

And before that of

c o u r s e th e R 2 9 9 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w h i c h y o u w i ll fi n d a t A n n e x u r e D – 1 6 D . I
ju s t w a n t – a l l I a m a s k i n g y o u t o d o is t o c o n fir m t h e s e a m o u n ts t h a t
y o u a r e h a p p y w i t h t h e s e a m o u n ts M r Th a b e th e ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m – I a m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t t h e s e w e r e – t h e s e a m o u n ts w e r e
paid?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

because these were the amounts that proof of payment …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s a v a i l a b le t o y o u .

Page 123 of 203

I c o n fir m

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Wa s a v a i la b l e to m e .
CHAIRPERSON : ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To i n c l u d e y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u . M y c o l le a g u e h a s l o c a te d t h e
d o c u m e n t t h a t I w a s l o o k in g f o r.

So we are looking at Reference

b u n d l e F t h a t i s t h e o n e th a t w a s a d m i t t e d i n to th e r e c o r d y e s t e r d a y F.
A r e y o u th e r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d th e p a g e is 1 0 6 .

Oh they did say

t h a t . C h a i r m a n c a n I e x p la i n t h i s ? M y c o l l e a g u e is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Because we took these…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e fir s t ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I t i s p a g e – i f i t is – t h e r e a r e t w o

n u m b e r s – t w o p a g e n u m b e r s . P l e a s e u s e t h e c e n tr e p a g e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d th a t i s 1 9 6 8 .

Because these came

o u t o f a d i ff e r e n t b u n d le C h a ir m a n th e o n e i n t h e c o r n e r b e lo n g s t o t h e
20

o th e r b u n d l e . F o r t h i s b u n d le w e a r e u s i n g E S T r e fe r e n c e 1 9 6 8 .
CHAIRPERSON : Ah.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : So in the middle…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o n d e r w h e t h e r i t m i g h t n o t b e b e tt e r t h a t e v e n l a te r
on somebody crosses out the corner…
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e o n e o n t h e r i g h t ?

Page 124 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja so that there can never b e any confusion.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e w il l d o t h a t C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I t i s Ta b n u m b e r 9 1 if y o u r b u n d l e is

tabbed.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

N o w a t n o te 5 .4 w h a t I fo u n d i n s tr u c t iv e

w a s th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h .

B e c a u s e i t d e a l s w i t h th e s e tr a n s fe r

p a y m e n t s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n t r y i n g t o c o m e to g r i p s w it h . A n d t h e n o te
10

is a s f o l l o w s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 .
“ D e p a r t m e n ts a r e r e q u e s t e d to p r o v i d e th e n a m e o f
t h e tr a n s fe r e e .”
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry I am at…
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 9 6 7 m i d d l e n u m b e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 1 9 6 8 w h ic h is th e n e x t p a g e . T h e – o n e
t h e f a r r i g h t i t w il l b e 1 0 6 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t i t is 1 9 6 8 t h a t i s t h e c o r r e c t n u m b e r.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a r a g r a p h 2 C h a ir m a n is t h e o n e t h a t I a m
f o c u s s in g o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y s o w h e n y o u s a id p a r a g r a p h 2 I w a s l o o k i n g
for a number 2.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I s e e . Ye s .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a s – b e c a u s e t h e r e is 5 .4 .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : It is 5.4.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t i t is th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y it is th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h u n d e r 5 . 4 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u . Ye s . S o i t r e a d s a s f o l l o w s
Mr Thabethe:
“ D e p a r t m e n ts a r e r e q u e s t e d to p r o v i d e th e n a m e o f
t h e tr a n s fe r e e , th e p u r p o s e fo r w h i c h t h e s e f u n d s
10

w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d , d i d th e d e p a r t m e n t c o m p l y w i t h
S e c t io n

3 8 .1 J ?

The

a m o u n t tr a n s f e r r e d .

a m o u n ts s p e n t fr o m t h e t r a n s f e r.

The

R e c e i v e d b y th e

tr a n s fe r e e a n d i n b r a c k e t [ e x c lu d i n g i n d iv i d u a ls o r
s o c ia l g r a n t s

p a y m e n t s ].

And

the reasons

for

u n s p e n t f u n d s b y t h e tr a n s f e r e e . D e p a r t m e n ts m u s t
a ls o c o m m e n t o n m o n t h ly m o n i t o r in g s y s t e m s o r t h e
la c k th e r e o f t o m o n i to r s p e n d i n g o n s u c h tr a n s fe r s .
I f s u c h m o n i to r i n g d i d ta k e p l a c e d e p a r t m e n ts m u s t
p r o v i d e d e t a i ls o f d i ff ic u l t ie s e x p e r ie n c e d a n d w h a t
20

s t e p s i f a n y w e r e t a k e n t o r e c t if y s u c h d i ff i c u l t ie s .”
S o y o u t h e n h a v e t h e t a b le b e l o w t h a t a n d I – m y a s s u m p ti o n i s th a t a l l
o f th is h a s c o m e fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e a n d R u r a l
D e v e l o p m e n t , i t w o u ld b e c o r r e c t ?

These numbers would have come

fr o m y o u ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u m e a n t h e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
numbers that are in the …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n th is – t h a t c o l u m n t h a t fi r s t c o l u m n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Aha I thought so.

So the name of the

tr a n s fe r e e h e r e th e n a m e y o u h a v e p u t in i s Vr e d e D a ir y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I s th e r e a n y r e a s o n t h a t i t i s Vr e d e D a ir y
a n d n o t E s t in a b e c a u s e E s ti n a is t h e i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t a n d i t is
E s ti n a th a t is h e ld to a c c o u n t ?
10

I j u s t fa i le d t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t b u t I

knew you would be able to explain it.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir t h e n a m e o f th e n a m e o n

w h ic h th e b u d g e t i s g a z e tt e d i t i s Vr e d e D a ir y.

I t is n o t Es t in a .

So

w h e n y o u r e p o r t y o u r e p o r t t h e b u d g e t a l l o c a ti o n u n d e r Vr e d e D a ir y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o y o u r e p o r t a g a i n s t th e p r o j e c t n o t

a g a in s t t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Yo u r e p o r t a g a in s t th e p r o j e c t

b e c a u s e i f t h is m o n e y is g a z e t te d u n d e r a c e r t a i n t o p ic t o s a y t h is
a m o u n t o f m o n e y g o e s to Vr e d e D a ir y t h e n w h e n y o u p r e s e n t y o u r
r e p o r t o t h e r w is e th e n i t w i ll c o n fu s e s o m e b o d y w h ic h b u d g e t a r e y o u
20

r e l a ti n g t o . H e n c e i t s a y s Vr e d e D a ir y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u s e e … ;
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

Th a t i s th e n a m e u n d e r w h i c h th e

b u d g e t w a s a ll o c a t e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I u n d e r s t a n d . My - m y …
CHAIRPERSON : Well …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

D i ff ic u l ty I s u p p o s e a r is e s fr o m t h e fa c t

t h a t w h e n y o u w a n t t o h o ld s o m e b o d y to a c c o u n t h a v i n g t h e p r o je c t
n a m e t h e r e c a n b e m is l e a d i n g b e c a u s e i t is t h e i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t
w h o is th e p e r s o n y o u w a n t to h o l d to a c c o u n t . Yo u d o n o t t h in k t h a t
w o u ld p r e s e n t a n y d i ffi c u l ti e s a t a l l ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I - I h e a r y o u C h a ir. H e n c e t h e
c o m m e n t t h a t t h e y a r e g iv i n g b u t r e m e m b e r th e a u d i t t h a t is d o n e b y
the Auditor-General …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
s t a te m e n t .

They do the audit on our financial

N o w t h e f i n a n c ia l s t a te m e n t s a y s s o m u c h m o n e y w a s

a l lo c a t e d a n d - a n d th is m u c h .
forward

d e p a r t m e n ts

must

Th e n t h e y a r e th e n s a y i n g m o v i n g

th e n

a ls o

r e fl e c t

that

-

th a t

is

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e s ta t e m e n t th a t w e w il l th e n h a v e a ls o to r e f le c t to
w h o m t h e m o n e y w a s tr a n s f e r r e d ? H o w m u c h w a s s p e n t a n d s o o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s a n d t h a t i s w h e r e I - I j u s t w a n t to

s p e n d a li t tl e b i t o f t i m e b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e t h in g s t h e C h a ir m a n i s
e n j o y i n g t o d o i s m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o n h o w t o i m p r o v e s y s t e m s
t h a t a r e i n p l a c e . S y s t e m s th a t a r e n o t a s c l e a r a s t h e y m i g h t b e i f a
20

d i ff e r e n t m o d a l it y w a s a d o p t e d …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d t h is is w h y I d e b a t e t h i s w i t h y o u

because at least you have some knowledge of - of these matters.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir - C h a ir m y k n o w l e d g e o n

t h is is v e r y li m i t e d . T h e - t h e C F O a n d t h e - th e fi n a n c e s e c ti o n o f th e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
d e p a r t m e n t d e a ls w i th th is . S o t h e y k n o w t h e d e ta il s o f - o f d o i n g t h e
fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts w h ic h e v e n tu a l ly g e t t o th e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l. I a m
o n ly e x p l a in in g m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e s e b u t I w il l n o t b e a b l e to g o
in t o t h e d e t a i ls .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s M r T h a b e t h e b u t a s t h e H O D - y o u a r e
t h e A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r f o r e v e r y t h in g - fi n a n c e s - f o r a b s o lu t e l y
everything.

S o y o u r te a m - y o u h a v e g o t p e o p l e w h o r e p o r t i n to y o u

w h o e x p l a i n t h i n g s t o y o u . I t d o e s n o t m a tt e r w h ic h d iv is io n t h e y m a y
sit in.
10

Yo u r s is to a t l e a s t h a v e a - a s tr a te g i c o v e r v i e w o f w h a t is

going on in the department.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o y o u - m o n e y is i m p o r ta n t .

Yo u w i ll

h a v e a v e r y c l o s e r e l a t i o n s h ip w i t h th e C F O . A m I r i g h t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir - C h a ir I a g r e e b u t I w o u ld
n o t h a v e g o n e o t h e r w is e I - I w ill b e a v e r y s u p e r p e r s o n t o k n o w t h e
d e t a i ls o f - o f e a c h - b e c a u s e t h is - t h is i s g o i n g i n t o th e d e ta il s . W h a t
I w o u l d k n o w is t h a t s o m u c h m o n e y h a s b e e n p a id a n d - a n d t h e
d e t a i ls t h e n th e C F O c o m e s in b e c a u s e th e y a r e tr a i n e d i n t o t h e s e
is s u e s .
20

T h e y w il l u n d e r s ta n d e v e n w h a t Tr e a s u r y - w h a t th e A u d i to r G e n e r a l is s a y i n g h e r e .

T h e y w i ll u n d e r s t a n d f a r m u c h b e t t e r th a n -

b e c a u s e if I w i ll tr y a n d e x p la in t h e s e I m a y n o t b e te ll i n g t h e c o r r e c t
t h i n g . W h a t is i t t h a t th e y a r e s a y i n g ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B u t th is i s a s i m p l e p r o p o s i ti o n b e c a u s e

t h is t a b l e t h a t v e r y fir s t ta b le a c c o r d s w i t h w h a t y o u h a v e p u t i n

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
p a r a g r a p h s 1 8 a n d 1 9 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t.

We - we agreed on that

e a r l ie r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t t h e t o ta l a m o u n t s p e n t b e t w e e n

A p r il 2 0 1 3 a n d M a r c h 2 0 1 4 w a s R 11 3 9 0 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ja.

S o I m e a n t h e r e is n o - t h e r e is n o

r o c k e t s c i e n c e t h i n k i n g t h a t g o e s i n to t h is .

Yo u k n o w th a t th a t i s

d e f in i te ly c o r r e c t . Ye s . T h a t n u m b e r is c o r r e c t . I a m j u s t s t a r ti n g a t
10

t h e e a s y th i n g .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

I agree the number is correct

C h a ir …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B u t w h a t - w h a t is o n t o p t h o s e

s t a te m e n ts t h a t a r e o n to p a r e - a r e v e r y k e y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e y n e e d - th e y n e e d s o m e b o d y w h o
u n d e r s t a n d s t o b e a b l e t o i m p l e m e n t w h a t t h e y s a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o a n d t h e r e a s o n I s a y th e y d o n o t n e e d
20

s o m e b o d y w h o i s a s p e c i a l i s t i n fi n a n c e i s b e c a u s e a s a la w y e r I w a s
a b l e t o r e a d t h i s a n d u n d e r s ta n d e x a c tly w h a t is r e q u ir e d a n d I h a v e n o
fi n a n c i a l b a c k g r o u n d a t a l l …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

And I have never been a Head of

D e p a r t m e n t. S o I a m c h a l l e n g i n g y o u t o h e l p m e w o r k t h is t h r o u g h t h is .

Page 130 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
Fr o m m y p o s i t io n o f n e v e r h a v i n g b e e n a H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t . L e t u s
go Mr …
CHAIRPERSON : Well …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a b e t h e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ms G c a b a s h e p l e a s e d o n o t f o r g e t y o u r l in e o f

thinking.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

I ju s t w a n t t o s e e w h e th e r w e a r e o n t h e - o u r

c o n c e r n is t h e s a m e o r n o t .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e M r T h a b e th e y o u s a i d t h a t i n e ff e c t i t w a s i n
o r d e r t h a t t h e y w r o t e Vr e d e D a ir y i n t h e c o l u m n w h e r e t h e y w e r e
s u p p o s e d to w r i t e th e n a m e o f th e tr a n s f e r e e . Yo u r e m e m b e r th a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I h e a r y o u C h a ir, y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s . I h a v e d i ff ic u l ty w it h a c c e p ti n g th a t b e c a u s e i f

y o u l o o k a t t h e th ir d c o l u m n i n t h a t t a b l e . I t s a y s p u r p o s e f o r w h ic h t h e
funds were used.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

S o e a c h c o lu m n y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o e n t e r o n ly th e

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t is r e q u ir e d .

N o w u n d e r n a m e o f tr a n s f e r e e o b v i o u s l y

w h a t is r e q u ir e d is y o u m u s t s a y w h o w a s p a i d a n d th e n - a n d t h e n t h e
n e x t c o l u m n s a y s ty p e o f o r g a n i s a t io n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d o n e a s s u m e s t h a t th e r e is a r e a s o n w h y th e y

w o u ld e v e n w a n t t y p e o f o r g a n is a t i o n t h a t m i g h t n o t b e a p p a r e n t t o m e .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M a y b e to M s G c a b a s h e a s w e l l a s la w y e r s b u t t h e y - w e - w e h a v e t o
a s s u m e t h e y h a v e a r e a s o n t o w a n t t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n . Th e n th e n e x t t h e th ir d c o l u m n is p u r p o s e f o r w h ic h t h e f u n d s w e r e u s e d a n d th e n y o u
s e e w h a t is w r i t t e n t h e r e is p r o j e c t i m p le m e n t a ti o n .
I f y o u a s k m e th a t is w h e r e t h e r e fe r e n c e t o Vr e d e D a ir y
P r o je c t w o u l d c o m e i n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o - s o t h a t i f I a m c o r r e c t a b o u t th a t th e n w r i t in g

Vr e d e D a ir y u n d e r n a m e o f tr a n s f e r e e c o u l d n o t b e c o r r e c t b e c a u s e th a t
10

is n o t th e p e r s o n w h o w a s p a i d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir - C h a ir t h a t - t h a t i s

correct.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
we - we are looking at this table.
t h e y p u t i t i n t h is ta b le .

W h a t I w a s e x p la in i n g C h a ir is th a t
W e d o n o t k n o w w h a t i n fo r ms h o w

M a y - m a y b e t h e - t h e m is t a k e c o u ld h a v e

h a p p e n e d o n th e b u d g e t s id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m i n v i ti n g y o u t o c o n c e d e t h a t i t w a s w r o n g f o r
t h e m t o w r i te Vr e d e D a ir y w h e n t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to d is c lo s e t h e
20

n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n t o w h o m t h e m o n e y w a s tr a n s f e r r e d b e c a u s e t h e r e
is a c o lu m n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Where they needed to disclose what the payment was
for …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON :

Which

is

where

they

w o u ld

have

w r i t te n

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t o r j u s t Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I h e a r y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a c c e p t t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r w e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t i s e x a c t l y …
CHAIRPERSON : Oh …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir m a n …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B e c a u s e I t h i n k i t ju s t m a k e s i t m u c h

c le a r e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h e r e t h a t r e c o r d s i ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S i ts .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W h e t h e r i t i s i n y o u r a n n u a l f i n a n c ia l

s t a te m e n ts , in y o u r s tr a te g ic p l a n s .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

The same explanation.

As I un derstand

w h a t t h a t p a r a g r a p h t h a t I r e a d i n to th e r e c o r d r e q u ir e s . Yo u r e a lly - i t
is - i t i s a s k i n g f o r tr a n s p a r e n c y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is r i g h t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Q u it e f r a n k ly. I t - s o t h a t w e k n o w e x a c t ly

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w h o is h a n d l i n g t h e fu n d s a n d - a n d I w a s a c t u a ll y g o in g t o s u g g e s t
t h a t i t c o u l d e v e n b e E s ti n a / Vr e d e D a ir y.

So that your needs are

c a t e r e d f o r a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t . Yo u k n o w t h a t t h a t i s t h e p r o je c t …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t w e m u s t k n o w th e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n t
t h a t i s h a n d li n g t h a t m o n e y …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e w h e n th e i s s u e o f m o n i t o r i n g th e
s p e n d in g o n s u c h tr a n s f e r s a r is e s a n d t h a t is l in e o n e , t w o , t h r e e , f o u r
10

in th e m id d le o f t h e s a m e p a r a g r a p h .

O n e t h e n i n te r r o g a te s h o w t h e

m o n i t o r in g o f t h e s p e n d i n g o f t h e s e m o n ie s w a s c o n d u c t e d . S o w e a r e
t a lk in g - it is i m p l e m e n t a ti o n .
W e a r e r e a ll y ta lk i n g a b o u t h o w th e d e p a r t m e n t i m p le m e n t e d
t h e o b l i g a t io n s t h a t a r o s e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e d a ir y f a r m a n d a c c o u n t in g
t o t h e p u b lic fo r t h e m o n i e s t h a t h a d b e e n d is p e r s e d .

Yo u h a v e

understood …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t - th a t l in e o f th i n k i n g a n y w a y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . I - I ju s t w a n t t o c h e c k C h a ir …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e I - I o n ly s e e t h e e x tr a c t o f

three pages.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m - I a m n o t s u r e i f t h is w a s a f in a l
report.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It m a k e s it v e r y d i ffic u lt f o r m e to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To - to …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To t a lk t o i t w h e t h e r w a s i t a d r a f t . A t
t h is ti m e w h e t h e r i t w a s a lr e a d y f in a l . I a m - I a m n o t s u r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Of course you can preface your comments on by
s a y in g w e l l if i t w a s n o t f i n a l t h is i s w h a t I h a v e to s a y. I f it w a s f i n a l
…
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s is w h a t I h a v e to s a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

I - I t a k e i t C h a ir t h e y t o o k i t

fr o m t h e fi n a l …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t - i t is . C h a ir m a n I m u s t s a y t h a t w h e r e
w e g o t t h i s f r o m i t c a m e to u s i n t h is f o r m a t …
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t I a s k e d o n e o f o u r in v e s t i g a t o r s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To p r i n t t h e e n tir e d o c u m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : For me …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e I w a n te d to b e s u r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : w h e n I s a y th e A G .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a m a c t u a lly s p e a k i n g a b o u t th e A G ’s

report …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d I m u s t s a y t h a t i t is s i t ti n g o n m y

d e s k . I lo o k e d a t i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t in t h e r u s h t o g e t h e r e t h is m o r n i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

A n d I r e a ll y k n e w t h a t t h is is s u e m i g h t

arise …
C A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h ic h is w h y I k n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I h a v e t h e - I c a n a c t u a l ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f i t is i m p o r t a n t M r T h a b e th e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W h e n w e a d j o u r n w e c a n g o a c r o s s th e

r o a d a n d I w il l g iv e y o u - i t is a c t u a ll y q u i t e a t h ic k d o c u m e n t .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I c o u l d g iv e t h a t t o y o u .
CHAIRPERSON :

H m , b u t it - it d e p e n d s w h e t h e r y o u w a n t to l o o k a t

s o m e t h i n g i n t h a t - i n t h e r e p o r t o r w h e t h e r y o u ju s t w a n t e d t o k n o w
w h e t h e r i t w a s fi n a l o r n o t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , ja .

Page 136 of 203

C h a ir I h a v e a n u m b e r o f

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
o th e r q u e s t io n s b e c a u s e i f - i f i t w a s th e fi n a l r e p o r t b e c a u s e w e w o u l d
h a v e t h e n h a v e e n g a g e d w i t h t h e A u d i to r - G e n e r a l t o s a y b u t w h y is
column …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e m p ty ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e c o u l d h a v e th e n e n g a g e d w i t h t h a t
because …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O u r - o u r a u d it s t a t e m e n t l e a v e s fr o m
u s to P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

If

there

would

be

any

problem

P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y w i ll s a y n o , n o w e d o n o t a g r e e w i t h y o u r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Yo u r s t a t e m e n t . O n e , t w o , t h r e e , f o u r
is n o t th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

B e fo r e

then

it

goes

to

the

Auditor-General.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t - t h a t is th e r e a s o n w h y I a m

a s k in g if …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I n d e e d t h is h a s g o n e t h r o u g h a l l - a ll

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
o u r h a n d s a n d w e a r e n o t a b l e to p ic k i t .

H e n c e i t is a n is s u e n o w.

T h a t - t h a t is t h e b a s is w h y I a m a s k i n g …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I s u g g e s t t o y o u t h a t i t d id g o t h r o u g h
y o u r h a n d s a n d t h a t - t h a t is t h e p r e c is e q u e s ti o n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

I was going to ask you.

I n r e l a ti o n to

t h e s e e m p ty c o l u m n s …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B e c a u s e n o t o n ly t y p e o f o r g a n i s a t io n is

e m p ty. Yo u h a v e n o t - th e r e i s n o e n tr y - t h e r e is n o e n tr y h e r e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d m y a s s u m p t io n is th e d e p a r t m e n t d i d
n o t s u p p ly t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n b u t th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a n e x p l a n a t i o n fo r
that …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

A n d t h e n t h e c o l u m n th a t s a y s a m o u n t

s p e n t b y th e e n t i ty …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A g a i n d o e s n o t h a v e a n - a n e n tr y a n d I
am sure you would have had that am ount …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R e a d ily a v a il a b l e .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h a t y o u c o u l d a c c o u n t f o r it …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : In all the records that you need to prepare
p r i o r t o t h e A G b e i n g g iv e n i n f o r m a t i o n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

Hence my comment Chair

b e c a u s e e v e n th e Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y w o u ld h a v e r e fe r r e d i t b a c k t o u s
t o s a y b u t y o u a r e g iv in g u s a - a fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n t th a t h a s g a p s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is w h y I a m a s k i n g b u t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t m ig h t b e t h a t i t - i t m i g h t h a v e

s li p p e d th r o u g h …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: All of us …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W i t h o u t t h is in f o r m a t io n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d - a n d I t a k e i t C h a ir t h a t i n t h a t
20

p a r t ic u l a r y e a r w e g o t u n q u a l if i e d a u d i t.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

They

said

to

us

your

financial

s t a te m e n ts a r e a b s e n t.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n - i n d e e d s o . I a m c o m i n g t o t h a t.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: (Intervenes).
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I w a s s u r p r i s e d b u t p l e a s a n t ly s u r p r is e d .

I h a v e g o t - I h a v e a c t u a ll y - I h a v e g o t i t . D o n o t w o r r y. I a m - I a m
very fair Mr Thabethe.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : I made a note of that.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s .

O f t h a t o p i n io n .

Yo u a r e q u i te

correct about that but we a re going to get to it in a minute. In fact …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I t i s th e v e r y n e x t d o c u m e n t w e a r e

lo o k in g a t …
CHAIRPERSON : Well …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u m u s t r e m i n d m e n o w Mr T h a b e t h e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e a t s o m e s t a g e I h a d a c l e a r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f
t h e s e t h i n g s a b o u t q u a li fi e d a n d u n q u a li fi e d a u d i ts …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I k n o w t h a t s o m e p e o p l e d u s e d to g e t t h e m m ix e d
up …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I th in k r i g h t n o w I a m - I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I a m b e c a u s e I t h i n k if y o u f o l lo w w i t h ju s t t h e g e n e r a l u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
S o m e t i m e s y o u u n d e r s ta n d i t i n a c e r ta i n w a y. J u s t g o b a c k q u a l if i e d

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
a n d u n q u a li f ie d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e u n q u a l i fi e d t o t h e g e n e r a l la y p e r s o n ’s m in d
…
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M ig h t - m ig h t g iv e th e i d e a t h a t it is g o o d …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Th e r e is n o q u a l i fic a ti o n .

T h e r e is - th e r e is n o

c o n d i ti o n y o u k n o w.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e r e is n o d a r k s p o ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u k n o w, b u t i f y o u s a y a l s o q u a l i fi e d .

Yo u k n o w

q u a li fi e d is s u p p o s e d t o - i f s o m e b o d y is q u a li fi e d it i s g o o d b u t a ls o if
it is q u a li f ie d it c a n b e - it m e a n s i t i s c o n d it i o n - i t c o u l d m e a n i t is
c o n d i ti o n a l .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o i t is a v e r y b a s ic t h in g b u t I j u s t r e a l is e d t h a t I

h a v e ju s t f o r g o t t e n a n d …
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex a c t ly w h ic h o n e is g o o d w h i c h o n e is b a d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . T h e o n e o n to p C h a i r is th e c le a n
a u d it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e u n q u a l i fi e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o . T h e c l e a n a u d it i s t h e o n e w h e r e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
they cannot say anything.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t p r iz e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is th e f ir s t p r iz e .
CHAIRPERSON : Clean audit?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Clean audit.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J u s t b e lo w c l e a n a u d i t is u n q u a l if i e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n q u a li f ie d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Ye s .

U n q u a l i fi e d s a y s y o u r f i n a n c e s

a r e fi n e b u t w e h a v e t h e fo ll o w i n g c o m m e n ts t o m a k e t o y o u t o i m p r o v e
on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h y d o y o u s a y u n q u a l if i e d b e c a u s e i t i s li k e t h e y
a r e q u a li f y i n g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is - i t is l ik e y e s , b u t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h a t is - t h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is h o w i t is C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e th a t is w h y i t is - it i s c o n f u s i n g . Yo u k n o w. It

20

is li k e y o u s a y t o a s t u d e n t y o u h a v e p a s s e d b u t y o u m u s t f o c u s o n th is
o n t h i s o t h e r w is e y o u w i ll f a i l n e x t ti m e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N e x t t i m e . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u s e e .

T h a t is th e - t h a t is th e u n q u a li f ie d .

o n e th a t s a y s t h a t . T h a t is th e u n q u a li f ie d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h a t is t h e u n q u a l i fi e d .

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The

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is t h e s e c o n d f r o m t h e t o p .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON : But, but can you understand what I am saying?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I - I …
CHAIRPERSON :

F r o m a l a y p e r s o n ’s p e r s o n i t is li k e I a m a p p r o v in g

b u t m y a p p r o v a l i s q u a l i fi e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is c a l le d u n q u a l i fi e d . I t is l ik e - it i s - i t is o k a y
b u t if y o u d o n o t fi x A , B , C n e x t t i m e th e r e w i ll b e a p r o b l e m .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d t h e n t h e q u a li f ie d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d t h e n t h e q u a li f ie d o n e h a s a b i t

of holes …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In - in t o i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: And - and then there - there are two
20

w h ic h a r e a t t h e b o t to m .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Which …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h a r e v e r y b a d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Which are very bad.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Just remind me what are those again.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e - t h e l a s t o n e i s a d i s c l a i m e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D is c l a i m e r, j a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: (Intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON : Then that is …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It m e a n s y o u a r e n o t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a d i s a s te r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . Yo u a r e n o t e v e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is c h a o s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Yo u …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t is ju s t - i t is a m e s s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is a m e s s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a m e s s . T h e d o c u m e n t s o f r e c o r d s a r e n o t t h e r e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Yo u - y o u a r e n o t e v e n a b l e to

p r e s e n t y o u r fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a , j a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e w o r s t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is t h e c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is - th a t is …
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is t h e b o t t o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D is c l a i m e r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON : The one above that?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e - i t i s - i t i s n o t a c tu a lly - i t i s - i t
is n o r m a ll y w h a t y o u …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r b e t t e r th a n t h a t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W il l - w i ll t a lk t o b u t i t i s n o t a

c a t e g o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

W h a t d o t h e y c a ll i t?

I am

tr y i n g t o g o b a c k t o i t n o w.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t h a s b e e n s o m e t i m e C h a ir t h a t

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , b u t d o n o t w o r r y i f - if y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o - s o y o u s a y w h a t - w h ic h o n e d id y o u g e t
t h is - t h is t i m e a r o u n d t h a t y o u a r e t e l li n g m e a b o u t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is - i t i s t h e u n q u a l i fi e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e u n q u a l i fi e d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i s l ik e s e c o n d b e s t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

20

O h , o k a y.

M s G c a b a s h e I w a s - w a s I a l o n e in t h i s

c o n fu s i o n ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : U n fo r t u n a t e ly y e s C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l a t le a s t a t s o m e s ta g e I u n d e r s t o o d i t v e r y

c le a r ly. I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d r e c e n tly.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : No.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w o u ld p r o b a b ly b e in t h e s a m e p o s it i o n
n e x t w e e k C h a ir m a n w h e n I h a v e n o t b e e n lo o k in g a t t h e s e d o c u m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : But - yes in fact ca n I just go a step back
b e c a u s e I h a v e n o w f o u n d th e - t h e o th e r d o c u m e n t t h a t I w a s l o o k i n g
f o r a n d i t is r e a l ly j u s t t o c o r r o b o r a te in a s e n s e …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W h a t y o u h a d p u t in y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 8 .

N o w t h e s e - i f I c a n a s k y o u t o lo o k a t R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D f o r D o n a l d
10

a n d t h e p a g e th e r e is 1 - 4 - 5 - 2 .

D - R e f e r e n c e B u n d le D a n d i t is

towards the back. Reference Bundle D …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h i c h o n e is t h a t o n e ?
CHAIRPERSON : And the page?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
t h e b a c k Mr T h a b e t h e .

T h e p a g e is 1 - 4 - 5 - 2 C h a ir m a n .

Page 1-4-5-2.

To w a r d s

I a m a t t h e s a m e ti m e s t il l

lo o k in g a t p a r a g r a p h 1 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it w h ic h is o n p a g e 2 - 4 - 9 o f
H H 1 0 B a n d a ll I a m s a y i n g M r Th a b e t h e is t h a t w h e n I l o o k a t th e
fi g u r e s y o u p u t o u t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 8 y o u w i ll f in d th e v e r y s a m e
fi g u r e s i n R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e B p a g e 1 - 4 - 5 - 2 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S a v e t h a t t h a t fir s t 3 0 m il li o n t h a t w e h a v e
agreed …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Is t h e v e r y f ir s t o n e th a t - t h a t is r e c o r d e d
t h e r e . S o i n J u ly - o n 9 J u ly Es t in a w a s g i v e n R 3 0 mi ll i o n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
R34 950 000,00.

O n 1 8 A p r il 2 0 1 3 i t r e c e i v e a n o th e r

O n 2 6 A p r il 2 0 1 3 it r e c e i v e d R 3 0 m il li o n .

3 M a y 2 0 1 3 i t r e c e iv e d 1 9 0 5 0 0 0 0 .
the amount of 29 950 000.

On

O n 2 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 i t r e c e iv e d

T h e n o n 2 5 J u ly 2 0 1 4 j u s t b e f o r e y o u

c a n c e l le d th a t c o n t r a c t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y r e c e iv e d 3 0 m il li o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A f t e r c a n c e l la t io n o n 8 M a y 2 0 1 5 th e y

w e r e p a i d 6 0 m il li o n a n d t h e l a s t p a y m e n t th e y r e c e iv e d w a s o n
5 M a y 2 0 1 6 a n d t h a t w a s R 4 6 2 5 2 6 5 2 , 0 0 . Th e t o ta l th a t w a s d i s b u r s e d
is t h e r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : 280 200-and - I beg your pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 8 0 m il li o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s - i t is b i g m o n e y t o s o m e o f u s .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Well I thought …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : DCJ.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e - t h e s e a m o u n ts a r e …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : And …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Q u i t e f a m il i a r t o C o u n s e l .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

N o a n d I w a s d o in g s o w e ll w i t h a ll th e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
o th e r s . Yo u k n o w D C J . I t is b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n lo o k i n g a t t h e m f o r
s o l o n g b u t n o w I g o b a c k t o m y o l d s ty le o f k n o w i n g .

I - I handle

t h o u s a n d s . I d o n o t h a v e t o li v e - b u t le t u s g o b a c k t o - t h a n k s D C J .
R 2 8 0 2 0 2 6 5 2 ,0 0 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o e s s e n ti a l ly R 2 8 0 m il li o n is w h a t t h e y

w e r e p a i d . T h a t is t h e n u m b e r I w a n t y o u t o l o c k in y o u r h e a d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

B e c a u s e w e w i ll b e c o mi n g b a c k to t a l k

about it …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d - a n d t h e r e a s o n I p r o d u c e t h is

p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t is j u s t t o c o m p a r e i t t o w h a t y o u h a d p r o d u c e d a n d
s a y y o u a r e s p o t o n s a v e f o r th a t l i t tl e e r r o r a t t h e b e g i n n i n g .
O t h e r w is e y o u a r e q u i t e c o r r e c t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A b o u t w h a t y o u h a d d i s c l o s e d a t t h e ti m e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
20

I t h i n k if w e j u s t fi n i s h o ff w i t h t h e s e

a n n e x u r e s - I a m t r y i n g t o g e t t h e m o u t o f t h e w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s G c a b a s h e I a m s o r r y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON :

I j u s t d o n o t w a n t t o f o r g e t t h is a m I c o r r e c t t o s a y

t h r o u g h o u t th e p e r i o d u n ti l t h e c a n c e l la t i o n o f th e a g r e e m e n t E s t i n a
h a d n o t m a d e a n y p a y m e n t i n t e r m s o f t h e a m o u n ts t h a t i t w a s

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
s u p p o s e d to p a y i n t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h a d n o t ? I - I k n o w - w e l l w h a t I h a v e n o t d o u b le
c h e c k e d n o w is w h e t h e r t h e l a s t a g r e e m e n t lik e t h e f ir s t o r t h e s e c o n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r - s ti ll h a d a p r o v is i o n t h a t s a i d E s ti n a w a s t o p u t i n
a c e r ta in a m o u n t . Yo u r e m e m b e r th a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja, ja.

T h e d i ff ic u l ty C h a ir t h e w a y

you put …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Is d i ffi c u lt fo r m e to s a y y o u a r e n o t

c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I - it i s a v e r y s i m p l e a n s w e r. N o , n o
M r T h a b e t h e . Yo u h a v e r e a d th e q u a r t e r l y a n d th e m o n th ly r e p o r t s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And you have seen the numbers that were
s u b m i tt e d b y E s ti n a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

S o t h e a n s w e r t o th e C h a ir m a n is

C h a ir m a n y o u a r e w r o n g …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B e c a u s e t h e q u a r te r ly a n d t h e m o n t h ly

r e p o r t s r e f le c t a d i ff e r e n t v e r s i o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h a t is w h a t I a m - I a m s a y in g
C h a ir b u t i t …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h a t I a m s a y i n g is d i ff ic u l t t o s a y t o
t h e C h a ir y o u a r e w r o n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ms G c a b a s h e j u s t e x p l a i n th a t a g a i n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o C h a ir m a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r r e m e m b e r i n i ti a lly t h e r e w a s a c l a u s e w h ic h s a i d
E s ti n a w o u l d p u t i n a c e r ta i n a m o u n t a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld p u t i n a
c e r t a i n a m o u n t a n d w e w e r e l o o k in g a t t h e q u e s t i o n o f w h e r e E s ti n a
w o u ld g e t t h e m o n e y fr o m .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Correct Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

S o I w a s s a y i n g I h a v e n o t l o o k e d a t th e l a s t

a g r e e m e n t w h e t h e r t h a t p r o v i s i o n w a s c a r r ie d t h r o u g h o u t o r w h e t h e r i t
was dropped and if it was not dropped whether Estina ever made th at
c o n tr i b u t i o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e n w e g e t t o t h e m o n th ly a n d q u a r t e r ly
r e p o r t s w h i c h I a m h o p i n g w e c a n s ti ll g e t t o t o d a y C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e w il l s e e t h e r e p o r ts fr o m E s t in a w h e r e
t h e y s a y w e h a v e p u t in 2 5 0 0 0 0 . W e h a v e p u t i n 3 . 6 m il li o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th is i s w h a t t h e y s a y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t i t is a l l i n th e …
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D o c u m e n ta t io n …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t w a s p r e s e n te d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

As p e r t h e a g r e e m e n t t o t h e H e a d o f

D e p a r t m e n t o r t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t m a y b e n o t to t h e h e a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w e w i ll g o - g o th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON : So …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : At the end …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

O f th e d a y y o u r e a lly w a n t to k n o w

c o m p a r e d t o th e - s o t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o p u t i n 2 2 8 m ill i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : F o r t h e p r o c e s s i n g p la n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a r e ta lk in g y o u t h e r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a r e ta lk in g y o u t o a v a l u a ti o n o f th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Processing plant …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t w a s d o n e i n 2 0 1 7 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e n w e a r e c o m p a r i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Numbers.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t j u s t t o p u t m e a t e a s e . Is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t t h e y
d i d p a y - d o t h e ir p a r t i n t e r m s o f p a y m e n t o r …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I - I th in k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t u n c l e a r ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O n c e w e s h o w Mr - it is u n c l e a r - M r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a b e t h e t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t is in t h o s e

q u a r t e r l y r e p o r ts …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e w o u l d li k e a n e x p l a n a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O n w h y t h e l a s t t w o p a y m e n ts w e r e m a d e
a ft e r t h e c o n tr a c t w a s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Wa s c a n c e l le d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B e c a u s e th o s e w e r e c l a i m s in t e r m s o f

t h a t C l a u s e 1 5 .3 I r e fe r r e d to e a r l ie r …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B u t w h e t h e r th e y w e r e j u s ti f ia b le c l a i m s

o n ly M r T h a b e t h e p o s s i b l y c a n h e l p u s .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

I - I th i n k I j u s t w a n t t o m e n ti o n t h is s o th a t

e v e n if I w e r e t o fo r g e t a t l e a s t o n e o f y o u w i ll n o t fo r g e t.

I t is

i m p o r t a n t fo r - I - I d o w a n t t o k n o w w h e t h e r o n e t h a t o b li g a t io n

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
c o n ti n u e d th r o u g h o n t h e p a r t o f E s ti n a t o m a k e a c o n tr ib u ti o n .
W h e t h e r i t m a d e th e - t h e c o n tr ib u ti o n t h a t w a s e n v i s a g e d
a n d - th a t is t w o , b u t t h r e e I a m i n t e r e s te d in t h e ti m i n g o f th e p a y m e n t
b y t h e m . I n o th e r w o r d s d i d - d i d t h e y n o t p a y w i th th e m o n e y t h a t y o u
paid them.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E x a c tl y C h a ir m a n . O h , s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t t h a t is w h e r e w e a r e g o i n g .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s c a ll e d r o u n d tr i p p i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I h a v e l e a r n e d a lo t C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h e r e is a te r m f o r i t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e r e i s a t e r m f o r i t .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s c a ll e d r o u n d tr i p p i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u p a y a n d t h e n th e y r o u n d tr i p it .

It

comes back.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Ja, ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u r m o n e y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e n t h e y s a y w e a r e m o n e y i n to th e

budget …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t M r T h a b e t h e is g o in g to a s s is t u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e w e c a n o n ly s p e c u l a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R e a ll y o n th e b a s is o f d o c u m e n ts th a t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t a r e a v a i la b l e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t I th in k i t w i ll b e fa ir t o a s k h i m to h e l p
us …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Analyse what we can.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r T h a b e th e l e t u s
ju s t g e t r i d o f th e s e a n n e x u r e s v e r y q u ic k ly. W e a r e a l m o s t d o n e w i th
it . W e a r e n o w lo o k i n g a t - w i th …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t . D o I p u s h a s i d e t h is fil e n o w ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

20

J u s t f o r a m in u te C h a ir m a n .

I - to y o u r

le f t p o s s i b ly b e c a u s e I c a n s e e o n y o u r r i g h t y o u h a v e g o t o t h e r f il e s o r
t h e o th e r w a y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : F r o m w h e r e I a m s it t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m y - t o m y r i g h t …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To y o u r …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r l e f t?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To y o u r - p l e a s e p u t i t o n y o u r r i g h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s G c a b a s h e a r e y o u o n e o f th o s e p e o p le w h o n e e d
t o d o t h is …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y w h e t h e r i t is le f t o r n o t ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I am.

I w i ll a d m it v e r y q u i c k ly.

Do not

a s k m e l e f t o r r i g h t h a n d . I h a v e g o t t o t h i n k o r t u r n r ig h t . I - I h a v e to
think Chairman.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t th e y s a y c r e a t iv e p e o p l e C h a ir m a n . I
lik e th a t . Th a t i s a ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e - w e g o b a c k t o t h e a n n e x u r e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

So we are back to the annexures

C h a ir m a n s i m p ly b e c a u s e I t h i n k I w o u l d l ik e t o g e t t h is f il e o u t o f t h e
w a y a s - a s s o o n a s w e c a n . S o w e h a v e b e e n d e a li n g w it h 1 8 a n d and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I j u s t c a n n o t r e s is t t h i s r e m a r k . T h a t i f E s ti n a h a d
R 1 6 , 0 0 w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o .
20

I t is h i g h ly u n l ik e ly t h e y

p a i d w i t h a n y m o n e y o t h e r t h a n t h e m o n e y t h e y g o t fr o m th e
d e p a r t m e n t.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a r e g o in g th e r e C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y, b u t M r T h a b e th e m i g h t b e a b l e t o e x p la in a n d

say …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E x a c tl y.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o it is n o t l ik e th a t . O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s s ir.

I f - i f - C h a ir m a n i f y o u r e a ll y

w a n t t o g o t h e r e i m m e d i a te ly i f y o u g i v e m e a f iv e m i n u t e a d j o u r n m e n t I
w i ll fi n d t h e s p o t i n my q u e s t i o n s a n d w e c a n a c tu a lly d e a l w it h th a t
i m m e d i a t e ly b e c a u s e I h a v e g o t t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f - i f i t is c o n v e n i e n t . I f it is c o n v e n ie n t o th e r w i s e I
a m h a p p y t o g o a t y o u r p a c e . I t i s j u s t t h a t i t w a s s o m e th i n g w o r r y i n g
me. I - I am easy about it.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

C h a ir m a n I - I li t e r a ll y j u s t n e e d tw o

m i n u t e s t o c o ll e c t - t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J u s t t o f in d - l e t u s lo o k a t t h o s e m o n t h l y
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M o n t h l y r e p o r ts . I f y o u j u s t g iv e m e t w o
m i n u t e s t o p u l l o u t th e r i g h t d o c u m e n ta t io n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. L e t u s a d j o u r n f o r fi v e m i n u t e s , ja .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d l e t u s d o t h a t . Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u

20

s ir.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e a d jo u r n .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s G c a b a s h e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

C h a ir m a n s o w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h

r e fe r e n c e B u n d le D f o r D o n a l d , r e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D , a n d I th in k t h a t is
p r o b a b ly g o i n g to t a k e u s a t l e a s t a n h o u r C h a ir m a n , I d o u b t w e a r e
g o i n g t o u s e a n y o f th e o t h e r s , b u t it is R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D t h a t h a s
t h e m o n t h ly a n d t h e q u a r t e r ly r e p o r ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h e p a g e n u m b e r C h a ir m a n is

1 3 9 8 , M r T h a b e th e p a g e 1 3 9 8 i s w h e r e it s t a r ts , a n d I a m h o p i n g t h a t
10

t h e s e a r e s e m i - f a m il ia r M r Th a b e t h e b e c a u s e t h is r e p o r t o r t h e s e
r e p o r t s , b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f t h e m w e r e s u b m i t t e d in t e r m s o f
t h a t 7 t h o f J u l y a g r e e m e n t , i t ’s p a r t o f h o w y o u i m p l e m e n t e d t h a t
a g r e e m e n t , i t is o n e o f th e w a y s i n w h ic h y o u m o n i t o r e d t h e s p e n d t h a t
y o u h a d t r a n s f e r r e d t o Es t in a , o k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
S o t h e fir s t o n e w e ’r e lo o k i n g a t is

S e p te m b e r 3 0 2 0 1 2 , a n d i n th e b a c k g r o u n d p a r a g r a p h ju s t t o t o u c h o n
w h a t is s e t o u t t h e r e t h e y r e a l ly s a y t h a t t h e p r o je c t w a s in i ti a t e d o n
t h e 5 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 2 . O k a y M r Th a b e t h e ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s .
W e k n o w o f c o u r s e t h a t t h a t ’s th e d a t e

o n w h i c h y o u s ig n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t , a n d th a t’s w h a t t h e y a r e c a ll in g t h e
in it i a t i o n .

T h e fi r s t p h a s e o b li g a t io n s th a t a r e s e t o u t o n th a t s a m e

p a g e I – w e h a v e d e a lt w i t h , t h e s e a r e t h e o n e s th a t t h e C h a ir m a n
in t e r r o g a t e d , I i n te r r o g a te d a n d y o u w il l t h e m , I j u s t w a n t u s t o g e t a

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
c le a r e r c o p y, i f w e g o t o p a g e 1 3 7 8 o f t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t , t h e s a m e
fi le , 1 3 7 8 .

A n d a g a in y o u w i ll f i n d th is l o o k s f a m il i a r M r T h a b e t h e ,

t h o s e w e r e t h e p h a s e o n e o b li g a ti o n s t h a t w e i n t e r r o g a t e d a w h il e b a c k
with you.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

That is correct.
T h e s a m e o b l ig a ti o n s w h ic h a p p e a r i n

t h e a g r e e m e n t i f y o u k e e p y o u r fi n g e r o n 1 3 7 8 a r e t h e o n e s w h ic h a r e
in t h is r e d p r i n t a n d t h a t a r e n o t p a r t ic u l a r ly c l e a r. I f y o u t u r n th e p a g e
t h e r e ’s a n e x p la n a ti o n o n th e p r o je c t , I a m g o i n g t o t h e th ir d p a r a g r a p h
10

t h e r e , w h ic h s a y s t h a t E s ti n a is a w a i t i n g t h e s i g n i n g o f a le a s e
a g r e e m e n t fo r t h e s a i d p r o p e r ty a n d a n o ff ic ia l h a n d o v e r o f s a id
p r o p e r ty t o e n a b l e t h e m t o c o m m e n c e w o r k o n t h e p r o j e c t . D o y o u s e e
that?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y a r e y o u r e a d in g fr o m 1 3 7 8 ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I a m r e a d i n g fr o m 1 3 9 9 C h a ir m a n , m y

a p o lo g i e s , it is 1 3 9 9 n o w C h a ir m a n , a n d i t is t h e th ir d p a r a g r a p h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d I w il l r e a d th e f o u r t h p a r a g r a p h ,

“ Es ti n a w o u l d l ik e to m a k e t h e D e p a r t m e n t a w a r e th a t a l l i ts
20

o b li g a ti o n s c a n o n ly c o m m e n c e fr o m t h e d a t e o f o ffi c i a l
h a n d o v e r o f th e l a n d t o E s t i n a .”
Yo u w e r e a w a r e o f t h is M r Th a b e t h e a t t h e ti m e , t h a t t h e y w e r e w a i t in g
f o r t h e – t h is is th e S e p te m b e r r e p o r t r e m e m b e r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
T h e l e a s e w a s o n ly s i g n e d o n t h e 1 4 t h

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
of December 2012.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

That is correct.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

So you were very much aware that

b e t w e e n S e p t e m b e r a n d t h e s i g n i n g o f t h e le a s e i n D e c e m b e r t h e ir v ie w
was they couldn’t do much?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir I t h i n k th a t w a s th e

is s u e t h a t w a s a ls o d is c u s s e d in t h e C o m m i s s io n , I t h i n k it w a s th e
S t a te L a w A d v is o r s in t e r m s o f d e a li n g w i t h t h e is s u e o f t h e l a n d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

Ye s t h a t i s a d i ff e r e n t to p i c w h ic h I w i ll

a ls o a d d r e s s w i t h y o u a t a l a te r s t a g e .

B u t I k n o w th a t y o u w e r e

in v o lv e d in e n s u r i n g t h a t t h a t l e a s e w a s s i g n e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .
In D e c e m b e r o f 2 0 1 2 .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

That is correct.
Then the very last paragraph on page

1 3 9 9 r e a d s . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
CHAIRPERSON :
20

Ye s M r C h a ir m a n ?

A g a i n Ms G c a b a s h e y o u w ill t e l l m e i f th e r e ’s

something I am missing here, could it be Mr Thabethe that by ensuring
t h a t th e r e w a s a p r o v is i o n t o t h i s e ff e c t i n t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t is E s t i n a ,
n a m e ly a l l it s o b l ig a ti o n s w o u l d o n l y c o m m e n c e fr o m th e d a t e o f t h e
o ffic i a l h a n d o v e r o f – o r t h is is o f th e la n d , I t h o u g h t th e r e w a s a
p r o v i s i o n t h a t w a s a li t tl e s i m i l a r b u t r e l a ti n g t o t h e h a n d o v e r o f t h e
s h a r e h o l d e r c o m p a n y o r t h e h a n d o v e r o f t h e p r o j e c t t o t h e fa r m e r s , a t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
s o m e s t a g e , b u t a t l e a s t t h i s r e la t e s t o t h e h a n d o v e r o f th e l a n d ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

O f t h e l a n d C h a ir m a n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, n o , n o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

And it is evidence that Mr Morreme

g a v e a t th e h e a r i n g b e c a u s e h e w a s a t t h a t p o i n t t h e M u n i c i p a l
M a n a g e r o f P h u m e l e l a M u n ic ip a li ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h is l a n d i s l o c a t e d , t h i s f a r m is

lo c a t e d , in f a c t i t i s a ll o f Vr e d e p l u s a t t h a t m u n ic i p a li ty.
10

CHAIRPERSON :

I t h i n k I p r o b a b ly h a d s o m e t h i n g e ls e i n m i n d , ja ,

o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M y c o l le a g u e t h i n k s y o u m a y b e

t h i n k i n g o f t h e h a n d o v e r o f a s s e ts b e c a u s e y o u h a v e b e e n r e a d i n g y o u r
d o c u m e n ts , t h e r e ’s a l s o t h e F D C t a k i n g o v e r a t s o m e p o i n t C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON :

J a , w h a t I w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w h e t h e r E s ti n a

e n s u r e d t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t h a d a c l a u s e w h i c h w o u ld m a k e s u r e t h a t
t h e y d i d n o t h a v e to p u t in a n y m o n e y u n til a c e r ta in s t a g e b u t t h a t
s t a g e c o u ld o n l y b e r e a c h e d a f t e r t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d m a d e p a y m e n t t o
t h e m t h e r e f o r e a ll o w i n g t h e m to b e a b l e t o p e r f o r m t h e ir o b li g a t io n s in
20

t e r m s o f p u t ti n g in

th e ir c o n tr i b u ti o n w it h t h e m o n e y f r o m t h e

d e p a r t m e n t t h a t ’s w h a t m y th i n k i n g w a s , b u t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
CHAIRPERSON :

Chairman you are correct.

W e m ig h t n o t n e e d t o b o th e r a b o u t i t u n ti l la t e r

maybe.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I n f a c t i t is t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
T h a b e th e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

That there was a phase one and a

p h a s e t w o , a m I c o r r e c t Mr T h a b e t h e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

That is correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d y o u r e v id e n c e w a s p h a s e o n e th e

m il e s t o n e s f o r p h a s e o n e a r e t h e o n e s o n p a g e 1 3 7 8 .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

Th e m o s t i m p o r t a n t m i le s t o n e f o r p h a s e 2

w a s t h e e s ta b l is h m e n t o f th e m il k p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETH E:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d th a t is th e p l a n t C h a i r m a n t h a t

E s ti n a w a s g o in g t o p a y f o r in t o t a l a n d y o u h a d a d e b a t e w i t h M r
T h a b e th e a t th e t i m e a b o u t w h e th e r t h e m o n e y w a s c o m i n g fr o m E s ti n a
o r fr o m P a r a s a n d I t h in k t h a t ’s t h e e v i d e n c e y o u h a v e .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh yes at the back of my mind.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

At the back of your mind.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

But that phase 2 according to Mr

T h a b e th e , c o r r e c t m e i f I’ m w r o n g , w o u l d o n ly k ic k i n o n c e p h a s e o n e
h a d b e e n s i g n e d o ff.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

Thank you M r Thabethe.

Page 161 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t’s o b l ig a ti o n s to p a y th e R 2 5 0 o r
w h a t e v e r m i ll io n i t w a s d u r i n g p h a s e o n e o r p h a s e o n e s o m e p h a s e
two?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

C h a ir m a n i t w a s a t h r e e y e a r p r o g r a m .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t w a s r o u n d e d o ff a t 11 4 m i ll io n fo r e a c h

y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r e a c h y e a r, o k a y, o k a y, a n d p h a s e o n e w a s w i th i n
t h e fi r s t y e a r ?
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

P h a s e o n e w a s w i t h i n t h e fir s t y e a r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d a s M r T h a b e th e e x p l a in e d i f w e ju s t

v e r y b r i e fl y lo o k a t p a g e 1 3 7 8 , th e s e a r e m a t t e r s w e d i d d e b a te w i t h
him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

O n t h e 1 8 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 h e s i g n e d o ff

o n t h e c o m p l e ti o n o f p h a s e o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
20

B e c a u s e h e a t t h e t i m e w a s s a tis f ie d t h a t

a l l t h e p h a s e o n e o b l ig a t io n s h a d b e e n m e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e e n m e t , o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d I k n o w th a t b y t h e e n d o f t h e

d is c u s s io n o n t h i s h e h a d c o n c e d e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e a f e w o f t h e m t h a t
had not been met.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.

Page 162 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B u t t h e r e c o r d w il l s h o w th e n a t u r e o f

t h a t d is c u s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

So those are the – because we are in

S e p te m b e r o f 2 0 1 2 C h a ir m a n w e a r e s t il l t a lk i n g a b o u t t h o s e p h a s e o n e
m il e s t o n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d th is is w h y w h a t ’s w r i t te n i n t h e

p i n k is h /r e d d i s h c o lo u r i s t h e e n v ir o n m e n t a l i m p a c t a s s e s s m e n t , y o u w i ll
10

fi n d i t o n th a t p h a s e o n e s c h e d u le a t 1 3 7 8 , t h e f e a s i b il it y s tu d y, w a t e r
r e ti c u la t io n a n d t h e n e l e c tr i c i ty c o n n e c ti o n s a n d a p p li c a t io n s , t h a t ’s
w h a t i s w r i tt e n j u s t a b o v e th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Am I correct Mr Thabethe?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

Th a n k y o u s ir. T h e n t h e r e p o r t g o e s o n

t o s a y in th e v e r y l a s t p a r a g r a p h C h a ir m a n t h a t a l l t h e a b o v e a c tiv i t i e s
c a n o n ly b e in i ti a t e d a f te r t h e l a n d is o ffi c ia ll y h a n d e d o v e r to E s ti n a ,
h o w e v e r Es t in a h a s a l r e a d y c o m m e n c e d w o r k o n th e fe a s i b il i ty s t u d ie s
20

w h ic h s h o u ld b e c o m p l e te d b y th e 3 0 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 .
A n d Mr T h a b e t h e i f I r e c a l l y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u u n d e r s t o o d th a t
fir s t R 3 0 m il li o n t o b e a ll o c a t e d t o i n p a r t th a t f e a s i b il it y . . . [i n d is t i n c t]
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Thank you. Over the page at page 1400

t h e i d e n ti ty o f t h e B E E e n t i ty a n d t h e s e t u p o f t h e B E E e n t i ty i n th e

Page 163 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
a g r e e m e n t , I th i n k i t i s c la u s e 7 . 1 Mr T h a b e th e i f th e d e p a r t m e n t , I
a c t u a ll y w e n t b a c k t o v e r i fy, y o u d i d s a y t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o o k
r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r i d e n ti fy i n g t h e b e n e f ic i a r i e s , n o t fo r s e t t in g u p th e
B E E s tr u c t u r e b u t c e r ta i n ly f o r i d e n t i fy i n g t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

A m I c o r r e c t, th a n k y o u .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s .
C h a ir m a n t h e n y o u h a v e in t h a t

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r e m e m b e r t o r a i s e y o u r v o ic e a b i t M r T h a b e t h e ,
I k n o w i t i s la t e i n t h e a f t e r n o o n , i t h a s b e e n a l o n g d a y s o t h a t y o u r
a n s w e r s a r e r e c o r d e d , j u s t r e m e m b e r to r a is e y o u r v o ic e a b i t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a n k s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

N o w M r Th a b e t h e I n e e d y o u r in p u t o n

t h a t fi r s t p a r a g r a p h , i n fa c t e v e r y t h in g th a t fo ll o w s u n d e r th e A g r i B E E
e n t i ty. W h a t is w r it t e n h e r e is t h e f o l lo w in g :
“ I n t e r m s o f t h e a g r i B E E e n ti t y Es t in a h a s a l r e a d y s e t u p a n
e n t i ty c a ll e d Z a n a I n v e s t m e n ts P t y L i m i t e d h a v in g r e g i s t r a t io n
20

n u m b e r 2 0 1 2 /0 3 7 5 2 6 /0 7 i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 .

Estina have now

a p p li e d t o th e r e g i s t r a r o f c o m p a n i e s t o c h a n g e t h e n a m e o f
t h e a b o v e c o m p a n y to M o h a m a M o b u n g D a ir y P r o je c t P t y
L i m i t e d in li n e w it h t h e v is io n o f t h e p r o j e c t .”
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Tw o th i n g s a r is e Mr T h a b e t h e , n u m b e r

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
o n e th is is S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 2 , w e k n o w t h a t t h e Z a n a In v e s t m e n t s P t y
L i m i t e d e n t i ty w a s p a r t o f t h e 5 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 2 a g r e e m e n t.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

W e k n o w t h a t y o u a c c e p t e d th e a d v ic e o f

t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s w h e n t h e y to l d y o u th a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r
a g r e e m e n t w a s n o t a v a l id a g r e e m e n t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

That is correct.

H e n c e t h e s ig n in g o f t h e n e w a g r e e m e n t

o n t h e 5 t h a n d t h e 7 t h o f J u l y. W h e n y o u s a w t h is e n tr y t h a t s ti ll s p o k e
10

a b o u t Z a n a I n v e s t m e n ts o n r e c e i p t o f th is S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 2 r e p o r t f r o m
E s ti n a w h a t d id y o u d o ? D i d y o u – w h a t w a s y o u r r e a c t i o n ?

How did

y o u s ta r t d e a l i n g w i th t h is is s u e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I a m g o i n g b a c k t o s a y t h is

w a s a r e p o r t o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 2 , w h ic h w e h a v e a lr e a d y ti c k e d , t h a t th e
s h e l f c o m p a n y h a s b e e n r e g is t e r e d .

Because the department had

c h a n g e d t h e c o n d i ti o n s w h ic h th e n d e la y e d , b e c a u s e i t th e n b e c a m e
o u r r e s p o n s ib il i ty t o c o m e fo r w a r d a n d s a y h e r e a r e t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s
in t o w h ic h m u s t b e r e g is te r e d i n t o th e c o m p a n y a n d t h e n p r o c e e d w i t h
the
20

shelf company

and

th e

b e n e f ic ia r ie s

fr o m

the

side

of

the

d e p a r t m e n ts a r e th e f o l l o w in g , w e n e e d th e b e n e fic i a r i e s fr o m t h e s i d e
o f E s t in a to b e t h e n i n to s h e l l , s o t h e s h e l f c o m p a n y e x is t e d i n t h e
n a m e Z a n a . A ll th a t t h e y a r e t e l li n g u s i s t h a t w e h a d s a i d t o t h e m w e
w o u ld w a n t i t t o b e i n l i n e w i th t h e p r o j e c t t o b e c a ll e d M o h a m a M o b u n g
s o th a t ’s w h a t t h e y n e e d e d ju s t t o c h a n g e b u t it a l r e a d y e x i s t e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I s e e s o y o u w e r e i n te n t o n u s i n g t h e

Page 165 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
s a m e c o m p a n y o n c e t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t w a s e s t a b li s h e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s .

Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t e x a c tl y C h a ir, t h a t w o u l d b e th e

s h a r e h o l d in g c o m p a n y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o y o u d id n o t d e r e g is t e r i t fo r t h a t

reason?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

N o C h a ir i t w a s n o t d e r e g i s t e r e d , it

was the company that was supposed to be the shareholding company
10

a n d t h a t i s w h a t w e h a d t ic k e d o ff t o s a y t h e c o m p a n y i s in e x is t e n c e , i t
h a s b e e n d o n e . T h e n t h e c h a n g e o f t h e n a m e a n d t h e in c l u s io n o f t h e
b e n e fic i a r i e s i n t o t h e s h e l f c o m p a n y t h e n r e m a in e d w it h u s a n d t h a t is
t h e p a r t t h a t w e h a v e b e e n d e a li n g w i th , w i t h t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I t is c l e a r e r to m e , c a n w e l o o k a t t h e

n e x t p a r a g r a p h w h i c h r e a d s a s f o ll o w s :
“ T h e D e p a r t m e n t h a s v i a [ o r v i d e ] th r o u g h i ts l e t te r d a t e d
A u g u s t 2 2 2 0 1 2 n o m i n a t e d o n e M r Fr a n s O u p a M o k w e n a t o b e
the

custodian

of

the

51%

shares

b e n e fic i a r i e s u n ti l fu r t h e r n o t ic e .
20

on

behalf

of

the

A s h a r e h o ld e r s a g r e e m e n t

is b e i n g d r a w n u p t o c le a r ly o u tl in e t h e r o l e s o f t h e v a r i o u s
s h a r e h o l d e r s .”
W h o is M r Fr a n s O u p a M o k w e n a ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h is is e x a c tly t h e p o i n t w h e r e

w e h a d a g r e e d w i t h th e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s t o p u t t h a t o n h o l d , b e c a u s e
w e c o u l d n o t h a v e a n i n d iv id u a l w h o w il l h o l d th e s h a r e s u n ti l fu r t h e r

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
n o t ic e , w h e n w e w e r e b u s y i n th e p r o c e s s o f f in a lis i n g t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s
t o c o m e in t o t h e e n tr y, h e n c e t h e n t h a t p r o c e s s d i d n o t h a p p e n ,
b e c a u s e t h is w a s t h e ir r e p o r t t o u s t o s a y t h is is w h a t th e y b e l ie v e
s h o u l d h a p p e n a n d w e d i d n o t a g r e e w i t h t h is i m p l e m e n t a t i o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o y o u a r e t e ll i n g th e C h a ir m a n t h a t y o u

s e t u p a c o m p a n y, Za n a I n v e s t m e n ts , y o u a s k e d fo r a c h a n g e o f n a m e
t o M o h a m a M o b u n g D i a r y P r o j e c t P ty L i m i t e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

B u t t h e o n ly c u s t o d i a n o r s h a r e h o l d e r o n

b e h a l f o f t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s w h o m y o u h a d n o m i n a t e d w a s t o l d t h a t y o u
w e r e c h a n g i n g t h e s h a r e h o l d in g s t r u c t u r e , o r w h a t e x a c tl y – b e c a u s e
y o u h a v e to l d u s t h e c o m p a n y e x is te d , s o w h o w e r e t h e s h a r e h o ld e r s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a ir, t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty fo r

E s ti n a t o d o w a s t o g o a n d r e g is t e r a c o m p a n y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A shelf company?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

Ye s .

T h e n th e y c a m e b a c k t o u s to

s a y t h e c o m p a n y i s r e g is t e r e d , h e r e is t h e r e g is tr a ti o n n u m b e r, h e r e is
e v e r y t h i n g s o t h a t is d o n e . W h a t t h e n w a s r e q u ir e d fr o m u s i s to p u t
t h e s h a r e h o l d e r a n d t h e n w h a t th e y a r e s u g g e s ti n g t o u s is th a t a t t h e
20

m e a n t i m e l e t ’s k e e p t h is p e r s o n a s a s h a r e h o l d e r i n t o t h e c o m p a n y,
w h ic h w e d id n o t a g r e e w it h , h e n c e t h e s h a r e h o l d in g i s s u e w a s d e l a y e d
u n t il th e e n d o f th e p r o j e c t , w e s a i d t h e s h a r e h o l d in g , t h e p u t ti n g o f t h e
s h a r e h o l d e r s i n to th e c o m p a n y l e t ’s d e l a y i t o n c e th e p r o je c t h a s b e e n
c o m p le t e d , h e n c e i t w a s n o t in t h e a g r e e m e n t th a t w e h a d s i g n e d w it h
t h e m , s o t h a t w a s th e u n d e r s t a n d in g .

Page 167 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCAB ASHE SC:

I t h i n k i t is g o i n g t o b e i m p o r ta n t fo r u s t o

u n d e r s t a n d w h e th e r y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a s h e l f c o m p a n y, t h a t’s o n e
t h a t ’s a lr e a d y i n e x is t e n c e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A n d t h e n y o u j u s t t a k e i t o v e r.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s .
O r a s h e l l c o m p a n y, w h i c h a s I

u n d e r s t a n d i t a s h e l l c o m p a n y i s a c o m p a n y t h a t h a s n o s h a r e h o ld e r s ,
b u t y o u h a v e g o t t o c o r r e c t m e o n t h is , w h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d E s t i n a
10

to have done for you?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n g iv i n g

y o u t h e c o r r e c t n a m e , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t th e r e w a s a c o m p a n y
r e g is t e r e d t h a t w a s t h e n p r e s e n te d t o u s t o s a y h e r e is t h e c o m p a n y,
a n d t h e ir p r o p o s a l w a s th a t a t t h e m e a n t i m e le t u s p u t o n e p e r s o n , I a m
n o t s u r e h o w it w a s a p p r o v e d , w h e t h e r i t w a s a p p r o v e d a s a c o m p a n y
o r h o w t h e p r o c e s s th a t w a s f o ll o w e d b u t th e c o m p a n y w a s t h e n
p r e s e n t e d t o s a y h e r e is t h e c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON :

Well

there

wouldn’t

be

a

company

without

s h a r e h o l d e r s is n ’ t i t ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , s o i f t h e r e w a s a c o m p a n y t h e r e w o u l d b e

s h a r e h o l d e r s t o t h e c o m p a n y.

M s G c a b a s h e is th a t r i g h t , o r is t h a t n o t

r ig h t ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

. . . [I n d i s t i n c t – m ic o ff ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I a m s a y i n g i s n ’ t t h e p o s i t io n t h a t t h e r e w o n ’ t b e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
a c o m p a n y w i t h o u t s h a r e h o ld e r s , i f t h e r e is a c o m p a n y t h e r e m u s t b e
s h a r e h o l d e r s , o r a t le a s t a s h a r e h o l d e r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

In f a c t C h a ir m a n m y c o l le a g u e h a s j u s t

g iv e n m e th e M o h a m a M o b u n g D a ir y Pr o j e c t P t y L i m it e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e r e w a s e v e n a c o m p a n y c a ll e d t h a t?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s t h i s i s w h a t is r e fl e c t e d i n t h a t f ir s t

p a r a g r a p h C h a i r m a n th a t t h e y w e r e c h a n g i n g th e n a m e fr o m Z a m a
M o h a m a M o b u n g D a ir y P r o j e c t P t y L i m i t e d , s o th a t d o c u m e n t is i n
r e fe r e n c e B u n d l e B , w h ic h is t h e o n e , n o y o u h a v e D C h a i r m a n , B i s a
10

d i ff e r e n t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A t p a g e 4 2 6 , y o u m a y ju s t w a n t t o m a k e a

note.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o a s t h e e n te r p r is e n a m e , t h e y ’ v e g o t a

r e g is tr a ti o n n u m b e r h e r e , t h e r e ’s t h e e n t e r p r i s e n a m e w h ic h is M o h a m a
M o b u n g D a ir y Pr o je c t , t h e r e g is tr a ti o n d a t e i s th e 11 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 ,
t h e b u s i n e s s s t a r t d a t e i s t h e 11 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 .
s a y s p r iv a t e c o m p a n y.
20

e n d F e b r u a r y.

E n t e r p r is e i t ju s t

E n t e r p r is e s t a tu s “ in b u s in e s s ” , fi n a n c i a l y e a r

M a i n b u s i n e s s / m a i n o b je c t e n t e r e d h e r e “ n o r e s t r ic t io n

o n b u s i n e s s a c ti v i ti e s ” . P o s t a l a d d r e s s 111 S h i m b a l i S a n d s , N a v iy a s h a
R o a d , S u n n in g h i ll , G a u te n g , 2 1 9 2 , t h a t is M r K a m a l Va s r a m ’s a d d r e s s , I
k n o w t h a t o ff b y h a n d , b y h e a r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [l a u g h i n g ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C o m p a n y t h e a d d r e s s o f th e r e g i s te r e d

Page 169 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
o ffic e a g a in M r Va s r a m ’s S u n n i n g h il l a d d r e s s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e c o n c e p t o f . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I f I m i g h t j u s t c l a r i fy t h e l a s t p o i n t

C h a ir m a n I c a n j u s t s e e w h e r e y o u r q u e s t i o n is g o in g .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

I th i n k .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV

LEAH

GCABASHE

SC :

On

the

f o ll o w i n g

page

at

427

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Yo u t h e n h a v e d ir e c to r s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W h ic h i s w h e r e I t h i n k y o u w e r e a b o u t t o

go to.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja, ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
Kamal,

s t a tu s

a c ti v e ,

ID

A n d t h e s u r n a m e a n d f ir s t n a m e Va s r a m
n u m b e r,

d ir e c t o r

ty p e

is

a

d i r e c t o r,

a p p o i n t m e n t d a te t h e 11 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 , p o s t a l a d d r e s s a g a i n t h a t
S u n n i n g h il l a d d r e s s .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Mmm, mmm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o y o u h a v e a c o m p a n y th a t h a s b e e n s e t

up ostensibly the same company that this report speaks to , the same
company that the HOD knew was going to be set up to house the
b e n e fic i a r i e s o f t h e Vr e d e D a i r y Pr o je c t , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 170 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

D o e s th a t h e l p C h a ir m a n , y o u m a y s til l

w a n t to a s k y o u r q u e s t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o , i t is v e r y h e l p fu l , i t is v e r y h e l p f u l .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s .

T h e l a s t d o c u m e n t C h a ir m a n i s j u s t a

C I P R O r e g i s tr a t io n c e r ti fi c a t e w h i c h r e a d s c o n c e r n in g M o h a m a M o b u n g
D a ir y P r o j e c t P ty L i m i t e d a n d t h e r e g is tr a ti o n n u m b e r.

The above

c o m p a n y h a s b e e n r e g i s te r e d i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 1 4 o f th e C o m p a n i e s
Act 2008.

In

a c c o r d a n c e w i th

the

n o t ic e o f in c o r p o r a ti o n

the

r e g is tr a ti o n o f t h e c o m p a n y t a k e s e ffe c t o n th e 11 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 . I n
10

c o n j u n c ti o n w it h th is c e r ti f ic a te th e C o m m i s s i o n h a s n o t is s u e d a n o t h e r
n o t ic e c o n t e m p l a t e d in S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 3 ) .
S o th e r e is a l e g i ti m a t e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s e s t a b li s h e d c a ll e d
Mohama Mobung Pty Limited.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W e c o m e b a c k to y o u M r T h a b e t h e

b e c a u s e w e n o w h a v e E s ti n a w h o s e s o l e d i r e c t o r i s M r Va s r a m .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
W e n o w a ls o h a v e M o h a m a M o b u n g

certainly by 2013.
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s .

I n 2 0 1 2 i t w o u l d s ti ll h a v e b e e n Z a n a .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

B u t a g a in s o le d ir e c t o r M r Va s r a m .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r Fr a n s O u p a M o k w e n a th e n h a d

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h a n y o f th is ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE :

R e m e m b e r C h a ir I h a d – y o u r e a d a

s t a te m e n t fr o m t h e r e p o r t t h a t s a y s w e v id e th a t i t s h o u ld b e h i m ,
w h e r e w e th e n s a i d w e d id n o t a g r e e b e c a u s e w e w i ll p r o v i d e t h e
b e n e fic i a r i e s , a ll t h a t w e n e e d e d t h a t ti m e is t h a t th a t c o m p a n y m u s t b e
r e g is t e r e d a n d m u s t b e i n e x is t e n c e .

T h a t ’s t h e n w h e n h e w e n t t o

c o r r e c t t h a t th e n h e p u t i t i n h is n a m e , s o t h e s h a r e h o l d e r a t th a t ti m e
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

W h o is h e ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

K a m a l , K a m a l Va s r a m t h e d i r e c t o r.

Va s r a m .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e n h e r e g is t e r e d a n d o p e n e d t h e

c o m p a n y n o w i n h i s n a m e , i n a n tic i p a t io n th a t w e w il l t h e n c o m e a n d
s a y h e r e a r e th e b e n e f ic ia r i e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Mmm.

W e l l I t h i n k th a t r e f e r e n c e a t p a g e 1 4 0 0 to

t h e p a r a g r a p h th a t h a s g o t “ v id e i t ’s l e tt e r ” I t h i n k th a t i ts s o m e b o d y
w h o i s u s e d to – I d o n o t w a n t to s a y o l d E n g li s h – I t h i n k t h a t v i d e
m e a n s s e e , s e e l e t te r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

I n f a c t y o u a r e c o r r e c t , i t is le t t e r, y o u

a r e c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , j a , s o in o t h e r w o r d s w h a t e v e r h e is s a y i n g i n

t h a t p a r a g r a p h h e s a y s g o t o th a t l e t t e r i f y o u w a n t to s e e w h a t h e i s
t a lk in g a b o u t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

What he is talking about.

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u , t h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . T h e n a t

– I w o u l d l ik e t o c o m e b a c k t o y o u a t s o m e p o i n t in r e l a ti o n t o M s S u J o n g ta k i n g o v e r a s t h e s o le d ir e c t o r o f Es ti n a , m a y b e I s h o u ld j u s t
d e a l w i t h i t n o w a n d g e t it o u t o f t h e w a y.

D i d s h e th e n a l s o t a k e o v e r

a s t h e s o l e d ir e c t o r o f M o h a m a M o b u n g ?

W h a t is y o u r i n fo r m a t i o n ,

w h a t w a s y o u r in f o r m a t io n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th e s h e l l

c o m p a n y it d id n o t m a t t e r w h o y o u p u t t h e r e , b u t d u r i n g t h e t i m e w h e n
t h e n y o u a r e r e a d y t o p u t y o u r b e n e f ic ia r i e s i n to i t th e n t h a t d is c u s s io n
10

w o u ld b e e n t e r e d a t th a t ti m e , t o s a y h e r e a r e t h e b e n e f ic i a r i e s fr o m
t h e f a r m e r s , w h o a r e t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s f r o m E s t in a ’s s id e , th e n th e y w il l
decide who they want to put.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o r r y t o i n t e r r u p t y o u Mr T h a b e t h e s h e

w a s a p p o i n t e d a s t h e s o l e s h a r e h o ld e r, s o l e d i r e c t o r o f Es t in a o n t h e
1st of July 2015.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s C h a ir.

T h e is s u e w i t h h e r is t h a t s h e i s n o t a

S o u th A f r ic a n N a t io n a l , s h e is fr o m K o r e a , s o t h a t c o m p l ic a ti o n m e a n s
t h a t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a B E E c o m p a n y h o l d i n g th e E s ti n a – b e i n g t h e
20

d ir e c t o r o f E s t i n a , b e c a u s e s h e i s fr o m K o r e a , a n d i f s h e w a s a ls o
holding the Mohama Mobung shares again your whole idea behind
c r e a ti n g t h a t B E E c u l tu r e a n d d o i n g th i n g s i n t e r m s o f t h e B E E t h i n k i n g
f a ll s a p a r t , b u t I d o n o t k n o w w h a t y o u r e c a ll o f t h e f a c t s a s t h e y
r e l a t e d t o t h e s e is s u e s a t t h e ti m e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r, I - I a m a w a r e o f t h e le t t e r

Page 173 of 203

04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
s h e is r e f e r r i n g to o f t h e c h a n g e o f t h e D ir e c t o r s o f E s ti n a i n 2 0 1 5 …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

But

in

2015

t e r m in a t e d th e a g r e e m e n t w it h t h e d e p a r t m e n t .

we

had

The

already

- we had

t e r m in a t e d in 2 0 1 4 to s a y t h a t r e la t io n s h ip h a s b e e n e n d e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H e n c e m y q u e s ti o n . M o h u m a M o b u n g w h o
r e m a in e d t h e s o l e D ir e c t o r s o f M o h u m a M o b u n g t o y o u r k n o w le d g e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h a t - t h a t w a s t h e - th e -

b e c a u s e th a t r e l a t i o n s h i p h a d c o ll a p s e d b e c a u s e i t w o u l d n o t b e 10

b e c a u s e w e h a v e t e r m i n a t e d t h e r e l a t io n s h i p b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s a n d
E s ti n a . W h a t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t th a t s h e l l c o m p a n y b e c a u s e i t is
o u r s h e ll c o m p a n y it w o u l d th e n r e v e r t t o u s a n d - a n d b e c o m e o u r
a s s e t w h e th e r w e w a n t t o u s e i t in t h e f u t u r e o r n o t b u t i t h a d - fr o m
a ft e r t h e t e r m i n a t io n i t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w it h E s t i n a a n y m o r e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u - y o u s a y i t w o u l d . D o y o u n o t r e c a l l
w h a t i n fa c t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g y o u r te r m a s H O D ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e - w e n e v e r c a m e to th e s ta g e o f

tr a n s fe r r i n g th e p r o je c ts t o t h e b e n e fic ia r i e s . T h a t - t h a t i s w h y it d i d
not happen.
20

We

-

w e r e q u e s te d

the

Fr e e

State

Development

C o r p o r a ti o n t o m a n a g e it u n t il s u c h a d e c i s io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n a g r e e d
upon.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t i s f in e . W e - w e w ill ju s t c h e c k - d o
a c h e c k o n C I P C to s e e w h a t t h e s t a t u s o f M o h u m a M o b u n g ( P ty ) L t d is
…
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C u r r e n t ly.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o n e x t t i m e w e s p e a k to y o u w e c a n t e l l
y o u . O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I - I w h o e v e r i s th e r e n o w w o u l d
h a v e d e c i d e d d i ff e r e n tly fr o m w h a t I w o u l d h a v e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Do not worry Mr Thabethe.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I do not know what would they have

d e c i d e d t o d o w i th i t.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o . D o n o t w o r r y. I w i ll o n l y b e s p e a k in g
t o t h i n g s th a t h a p p e n e d u p t o A p r i l 2 0 1 8 …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

B e c a u s e t h a t is w h e n y o u l e ft t h e

d e p a r t m e n t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e - th e n e x t f e w p a r a g r a p h s r e a l ly j u s t
s p e a k t o t h e p r o j e c t p l a n . T h e y s a y it is a p p e n d e d t o t h i s r e p o r t. T h e
f o ll o w i n g p a r a g r a p h c o n fi r ms t h a t th e c a p i t a l in j e c ti o n b y E s ti n a w il l b e
c o m i n g in P h a s e 2 .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C o n c l u s io n - t h e y ju s t s a y a g a i n t h a t

le a s e a g r e e m e n t p l e a s e c o u l d y o u h a v e i t s ig n e d .

S o th a t i s t h e

S e p te m b e r r e p o r t . T h e v e r y fi r s t o n e t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d . D o y o u r e c a l l
r e c e i v i n g i t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e s e r e p o r ts t o d o n o t - d i d n o t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
c o m e t o m e d i r e c t ly. Th e y - t h e y w e r e s e n t to t h e C h i e f D ir e c to r. Th e y
- th e y a r e n o t r e p o r ts th a t g o t o t h e H O D b e c a u s e i n r e c e i p t o f t h i s
le t t e r h e n e e d t o g o a n d c o n fir m w h a te v e r th a t i s b e i n g c a r r i e d h e r e i f
in d e e d i t h a s b e e n d o n e .
B y t h e ti m e h e te ll s m e h e s a y s I a m h a p p y b e c a u s e I d o n o t
n e e d t o a ls o g o th e r e my s e l f .

H e c o n fir m s i t .

T h e n - t h e n i t is

a c c e p te d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t s o u n d s o m i n o u s M r T h a b e th e o n l y

b e c a u s e th e r e a r e - th e v e r y n e x t r e p o r t d e a l s w i t h m o n i e s a n d h o w
10

m o n i e s w e r e - w e r e s p e n t a n d I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t th a t y o u w o u ld b e
k e e p i n g a c l o s e e y e o n t h i s m e g a p r o j e c t a n d t h e m o n ie s t h a t w o u ld b e
spent.

I t is a l o t o f m o n e y 5 0 0 0 0 0 p u t t o g e t h e r t h e E s ti n a a n d th e

d e p a r t m e n ts .
5 0 0 m il li o n p u tt i n g t o g e t h e r t h e E s ti n a a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t
c o n tr i b u t i o n s b u t le t u s l o o k a t t h e n e x t r e p o r t . O c t o b e r, t h e 3 1 s t 2 0 1 2
on page 1-4-0-1.
s u m m a r y.

A g a in p a r a g r a p h 1 ju s t a g a i n i s a n e x e c u tiv e

T h e r e th e y a c k n o w l e d g e t h a t 3 0 m i ll i o n w a s r e c e iv e d o n

9 J u ly 2 0 1 2 . P a r a g r a p h 2 is i n t e r e s ti n g C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e t h i s a n s w e r s
o n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s y o u h a v e a s k e d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y s a y t h a t :
“There was …”
I n t h e t h i r d li n e o r f o u r t h l i n e :
“ T h e r e h a s b e e n n o a c tiv i ty fr o m J u l y t o S e p t e m b e r
d u e to th e n o n - a v a i la b ili t y o f a d d i ti o n a l f u n d i n g

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t .”
And they go on to say:
“ H o w e v e r E s ti n a h a s i n g o o d fa i th d e c id e d to s ta r t
m a k i n g c a p i t a l c o n tr ib u ti o n s t o e n a b le th e p r o j e c t t o
c o m m e n c e o p e r a ti o n s a n d h a s i n j e c t e d 2 5 0 0 0 0 i n
the month of September.

In c o n s i d e r a t i o n o f t h e

a l lo t m e n t o f la n d in O c t o b e r Es t in a h a s m a d e a
f u r th e r

c a p i ta l

c o n tr i b u t i o n

of

3.75

m il li o n

in

O c t o b e r t o e n a b l e t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f u r g e n tly
10

n e e d e d fa r m e q u i p m e n t a n d a c c e s s o r i e s a n d t h e y
a s k th e d e p a r t m e n t t o e x p e d i t e t h e r e l e a s e o f t h e
b a l a n c e o f 8 4 m il li o n s i n c e t h e y h a v e in g o o d f a it h
m a d e a c a p i ta l c o n tr i b u ti o n o f f o u r m i ll io n in t o t h e
p r o j e c t t il l t h e d a t e a s b r i d g e fi n a n c e t o e n a b le
t h e m t o c o m m e n c e w o r k o n t h e p r o j e c t .”
O v e r th e p a g e M r Th a b e t h e a r e t h e n u m b e r s t h a t s p e a k t o
t h is n a r r a ti v e I h a v e j u s t s p o k e n a b o u t b u t w h a t is r e a lly i n t e r e s t in g
h e r e C h a ir m a n is a q u e s ti o n a g a i n t h a t y o u h a v e a s k e d . Th e o p e n i n g
b a l a n c e in J u ly 2 0 1 2 t h a t f ir s t c o l u m n t h e r e is n o t h in g a t a l l .

20

CHAIRPERSON : At 1-4-0-3?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A t 1 - 4 - 0 - 3 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o i t is c a s h f lo w p o s i ti o n o f E s ti n a ( P t y )
L td fr o m J u ly 2 0 1 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t. S o u r c e o f f u n d s o n
t h e le f t a n d th e n y o u h a v e g o t t h r e e / f o u r m o n t h s r e fl e c t e d h e r e b e c a u s e
it is a q u a r t e r ly r e p o r t .

J u ly 2 0 1 2 , A u g u s t 2 0 1 2 , S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 2 a n d

O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 . Th e v e r y fir s t li n e s a y s o p e n i n g b a la n c e t h e r e is n o t h in g
a t a ll r e c o r d e d i n th a t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o E s ti n a d i d n o t r e fl e c t a n y m o n e y i t

might have had.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Am I correct in what I am saying?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e n I a m j u s t l o o k …
CHAIRPERSON:

I s - is th e r e a n y r e a s o n t o - is t h e r e a n y r e a s o n t o

t a k e t h a t t o m e a n a n y th i n g o th e r t h a n th a t t h e r e w a s n o m o n e y ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir t o b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o m o n e y th a t w a s tr a n s f e r r e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To b e fa ir to M r T h a b e t h e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n e x p l a n a t io n h e h a s g iv e n …
20

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To t h e C o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I s t h a t h is u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t E s ti n a
…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Wa s n o t g o i n g t o c o m ix i ts m o n e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y e s . I c a n r e m e m b e r th a t y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W i t h p r o je c t m o n e y. A m I c o r r e c t i n w h a t I
recollect you saying?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASH: A …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n e x p la n a t i o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P o s s ib le e x p l a n a ti o n C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m s i m p ly r e p e a ti n g w h a t M r …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja, ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M r T h a b e t h e h a d to l d y o u .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t t h e R 1 6 , 0 0 w e s a w w a s in - i n a d i ff e r e n t

account.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n - i n E s t i n a ’s a c c o u n t C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In E s ti n a ’s a c c o u n t t h a t …
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e n o t mi x i n g w i t h t h e p r o j e c t m o n e y a c c o r d in g
to that explanation.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Or they are too embarrassed to put here

C h a ir m a n a s t h e b a l a n c e o n th a t a c c o u n t w h ic h e v e r C h a ir m a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

Or

Mr T h a b e th e

is

correct

in

h is

e x p l a n a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A l r i g h t . O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm. Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o s a y M r T h a b e th e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir a l t h o u g h I m a y n o t g o t o

t h e d e ta il s o f t h i s d u r in g - d u r in g t h e - th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t w a s d o n e
b y th e H a w k s in - i n t o t h e in v e s t i g a t io n o f t h e - o f t h e b a n k s .
10

They

c o n fir m e d t o m e t h a t t h e r e w a s a l o a n t h a t E s t i n a h a d - h a d t a k e n . I
t h i n k i n - i n o n e o f th e s t a te m e n ts . I w o u l d n o t b e a b le r ig h t a w a y n o w
to go in there …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d - a n d s h o w y o u b u t th e r e w a s

t h a t p r o o f w h ic h t h e y h a d a c t u a lly b r o u g h t t o s a y w e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e a r e a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a lo a n

that was taken.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ev e n t h o u g h w h e n - d u r in g t h e

i m p l e m e n ta t io n t h e y h a d n e v e r e x p l a in e d t o u s t h a t t h e y h a d ta k e n a
lo a n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : F o r u s t o b e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h th a t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B u t t h e r e w a s la t e r o n c o n fir m a t i o n

t h a t i n d e e d a lo a n w a s - w a s d o n e b y t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I m a y n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y h o w m u c h
the amount was now …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: But there was such a document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o w h e t h e r it w a s l a t e r o r a n d s o o n
10

b u t t h e r e - t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g lik e t h a t t h a t e x is t e d . N o w w h a t w a s o f
in t e r e s t to u s i f t h e y w o u l d c o m e t o u s a n d s a y a s E s ti n a w e h a v e p a id
t h is m o n e y a n d w e h a v e b o u g h t a tr a c t o r w e w o u l d t h e n g o a n d c h e c k i f
in d e e d t h e r e w a s a tr a c t o r a n d t h e n i f t h e tr a c t o r d id e x i s t w e w il l t h e n
ti c k a n d s a y w e h a v e s e e n t h e tr a c to r t h a t y o u h a v e b o u g h t .
S o t h a t - t h a t is w h a t w e w o u l d d o . S o th a t w h e n t h e y s a y w e
h a v e d o n e o n e , t w o , t h r e e w e w il l c h e c k t h a t a n d s a y o k a y w e a r e - w e
a r e h a p p y w i t h t h a t b e c a u s e i t h a s h a p p e n e d . Yo u a r e t e l li n g u s i t h a s
happened. We have seen it.
CHAIRPERSON :

20

O f - o f c o u r s e i f t h e y h a d - i f Es t in a h a d b o r r o w e d

m o n e y i n o r d e r to b e a b l e t o c a r r y o u t i ts o b li g a ti o n s o f m a k in g a
c o n tr i b u t i o n in t o th e p r o j e c t th a t m i g h t n o t h e l p i t i f i t g o t t h a t m o n e y o n
t h e b a s is o f th e fa c t t h a t i t w a s g o in g t o g e t t h is m o n e y t h a t w o u ld
c o m e fr o m t h e p r o j e c t .
I t - i t w o u l d h e l p i t i n t e r m s o f i ts f i n a n c ia l p o s i ti o n w h e n w e
lo o k a t w h e t h e r i t w a s t h e t y p e o f e n t i t y w i t h w h ic h t h e d e p a r t m e n t

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s h o u l d h a v e e n t e r e d in t o a n a g r e e m e n t i n v o lv i n g s u c h b i g a m o u n ts .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a c c e p t t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In - in t h e a g r e e m e n t C h a i r d u r in g th e
- t h is p h a s e o f i m p le m e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e s t a r t e d w i t h th e ir
i m p l e m e n ta t io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : H e n c e th e y s a y w e w a n t to s t a r t w i t h
y o u r p a r t o f t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B u t i t i s y o u r o b li g a ti o n .

I t is n o t

E s ti n a ’s o b l ig a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: But we are now beginning to pay our
money …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In t o y o u r o b li g a t i o n o f P h a s e 1 .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o t h a t w e - w e d o n o t s ta ll t h e

process.
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W h i c h w e b e li e v e w h e n y o u r m o n e y

b e c o m e s a v a il a b l e y o u w il l t h e n m a k e t h a t m o n e y a v a il a b l e .

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CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e l l w e - w e m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t b e t a lk i n g a t

c r o s s p u r p o s e s . I a m ju s t g o i n g b a c k t o th e c o n c e r n t h a t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a d r a is e d e a r li e r a n d m u c h - e v e n m u c h e a r li e r in
t e r m s o f E s ti n a i f in te r ms o f fi n a n c e s i t r e a ll y h a d R 1 6 , 0 0 i n i ts b a n k
a c c o u n t a t t h e t i m e w h e n i t c o n c l u d e d a n a g r e e m e n t i n te r ms o f w h ic h i t
w a s s u p p o s e d t o i n j e c t m il li o n s o f R a n d s i n to t h e p r o j e c t .
T h a t s u g g e s ts th a t t h e y w e r e n o t t h e t y p e o f c o m p a n y - e n ti t y
t h a t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n i n - b e e n i n v o l v e d - w i th w h ic h t h e d e p a r t m e n t
10

s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d in s u c h a p r o j e c t a n d I a m s a y i n g i t s e e m s
t o m e th a t e v e n i f t h e y w e r e - e v e n if t h e p o s i ti o n w a s t o b e t h a t th e y
h a d b o r r o w e d m o n e y i n o r d e r t o c a r r y o u t th o s e o b l ig a ti o n s p r o v id e d
t h e p o s i t io n is t h a t t h e y h a d b o r r o w e d t h a t m o n e y o n t h e s tr e n g t h o f t h e
m o n e y th a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o g e t o u t o f th e p r o je c t fr o m t h e
d e p a r t m e n t t h a t s h o u l d n o t c h a n g e t h e ir p o s i ti o n .
T h e - th e s a m e c o n c e r n w o u l d r e m a i n u n l ik e i f m a y b e th e y
h a d l o s s o f p r o p e r ti e s a n d s o o n a n d s o t h e y - t h e y g o t m o n e y. T h e y
g o t a lo a n fr o m t h e b a n k o n th e b a s is o f t h e ir p r o p e r ty p o r t f o l io fo r
e x a m p l e . Yo u k n o w.

20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f t h e y w e n t t o t h e b a n k a n d s a id p l e a s e l e n d u s
R X m il li o n a n d t h e b a n k s a i d h o w a r e y o u g o i n g to p a y i t b a c k . Th e y
s a i d l o o k - l o o k a t t h is a g r e e m e n t .

W e h a v e s ig n e d w i t h t h e

D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e . W e a r e g o i n g t o b e g e t ti n g a l o t o f m o n e y.
S o w e w i ll b e a b l e t o p a y y o u b a c k . T h a t w o u ld n o t h e l p t h e m . Th a t is

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w h a t I a m s u g g e s ti n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r t h a t - th a t is - is p o s s ib le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h a t - w h a t I a m c o m i n g is t h a t th e t h e p o r ti o n w h ic h t h e y h a d b e e n i m p le m e n ti n g w a s t h e p o r ti o n t h a t w e
w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e c o s t b u t h e r e th e in d i c a t io n is th a t th e y s ta r t e d
paying for the cost that we should have paid for …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: As a department.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t m e a n s t h e y - t h e y - b e c a u s e w e - in
a c t u a l fa c t w e w e r e w a i ti n g fo r th e n e w f i n a n c i a l y e a r b e c a u s e th a t is
where …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O u r m o n e y w a s s i t ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d - a n d i f - if t h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e
p r o c e e d e d w i t h th e p r o j e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t m e a n s it w o u ld h a v e s t a ll e d t h e -

t h e w h o le a c t iv i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : H e n c e t h e n th e y p r o c e e d e d - h e n c e i n
t h e ir s t a t e m e n t th e y a r e s a y in g w it h t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t t h e m o n e y
t h a t w i ll th e n b e p a id t o u s …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W i ll t h e n c o v e r th a t m o n e y t h a t w e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Are spending.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h i c h is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d y o u - y o u a r e c o m f o r ta b le …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h a t c o n te x t ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h a t d o e s n o t a d d r e s s th e e a r l ie r
c o n c e r n t h a t w e t a lk e d a b o u t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is j u s t a s e p a r a te c o n c e r n / is s u e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Mr T h a b e t h e th e - t h e d i ffic u lt y w i th w h a t
y o u a r e s a y i n g is fo u n d i n t h e v e r y n e x t l in e .

G r a n t r e c e i v e d fr o m

D A R D 3 0 m i ll i o n . To ta l s o u r c e o f f u n d in g u p to J u ly 2 0 1 2 R 3 0 m i lli o n .
20

T h e n w e h a v e u n d e r a p p l ic a ti o n o f fu n d s . S o f a r n o th i n g to c r e d i t o r s .
T h e n y o u h a v e g o t a l in e t h a t s a y s r e s e r v e d f o r p a r lo u r e q u i p m e n t R 2 9
m il li o n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d t h a t is w h e r e I th o u g h t y o u d i ff e r e d

w i t h Es t in a …

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v id e n c e to b e
t h a t th a t 3 0 m i ll i o n w a s s u p p o s e d to p a y fo r P h a s e 1 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t w a s y o u r e x p l a n a t io n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y t o o k t h a t 3 0 m il li o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : K e p t o n e m il li o n in t h i s b a n k a c c o u n t .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To o k 2 9 m i ll i o n o u t o f c ir c u la t io n . D i d n o t
use it.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To o k i t o u t a n d s a i d t h e y w e r e r e s e r v i n g i t
for parlour equipment. Not buying parlour equipment. Reserving it for
p a r l o u r e q u ip m e n t a n d t h is is w h y I w a s h o p in g y o u w o u l d b e a b le t o
e x p l a i n t o u s h o w t h e y j u s t if i e d t h a t a n d y e t a t th e s a m e ti m e t h e y s a y
t o y o u w e a r e h a v in g t o p u t m o n e y in t o E s ti n a b e c a u s e - I b e g y o u r
p a r d o n - i n t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t g iv i n g u s

20

m o n e y.
D i d y o u i n t e r - m y q u e s t io n r e a ll y is d id y o u i n te r r o g a te t h i s
a n d s a y w h y a r e y o u p u t ti n g m o n e y in ? W e g a v e y o u 3 0 m ill i o n …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O n 9 J u ly 2 0 1 2 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s . C h a ir I r e m e m b e r w e - w e

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
d is c u s s e d t h i s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d - a n d I h a d in d i c a t e d t o y o u t h a t
w e h a d e n g a g e d th e m b e c a u s e w e h a d n o t a g r e e d w i th t h e m …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t th e y s h o u ld - t h e y s h o u l d d o th a t
…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

B u t t h e i r - th e i r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s

t h a t w h e n - w h e n t h e y w e r e d o i n g in q u ir ie s in t o t h e - i n t o t h e d a ir y
p r o j e c t i ts e l f w h ic h is t h e p a r l o u r, t h e m a c h in e t h a t d o e s t h e - th e
m il k i n g .

T h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o p l a c e a n o r d e r a n d if t h e y p la c e a n

o r d e r t h e n i t h a d t o b e - t o b e m a n u fa c t u r e d a n d y o u w o u l d n o t j u s t
p l a c e th e o r d e r.
Yo u - y o u h a v e to g u a r a n t e e t h a t i f t h e y s t a r t m a n u f a c t u r in g
t h a t e q u i p m e n t f o r y o u . Yo u w o u l d b e a b l e t o - t o p a y. S o i f - i f y o u r
m o n e y i s s i t ti n g i n a b a n k . T h e b a n k w i ll - y o u c a n n o t t o u c h i t o n c e y o u
h a v e is s u e d a g u a r a n t e e o n th a t p a r t ic u l a r m o n e y f o r th e m t o b e a b l e t o
c o n s tr u c t .
N o w h e n c e I s a id th e y - t h e y h a v e d o n e th a t b u t w e w e r e n o t

20

h a p p y b e c a u s e w e h a d a g r e e d t h a t th is m o n e y w a s m e a n t f o r s p e c i fic
p u r p o s e s fo r u s to b e a b l e t o p r o c e e d a n d - a n d th a t w a s th o s e th in g s
t h a t w e h a d l is t e d t h a t t h e y - t h e y s h o u ld h a v e d o n e i n t h a t p a r t i c u la r
stage.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o i n o th e r w o r d s t h e y w e r e u s i n g m o n e y g iv e n to

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
them for one purpose …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r a n o t h e r p u r p o s e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h i s - t h is m o n e y w a s p u t a s i d e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t m a y b e u s in g m i g h t n o t b e …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON : The right term.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON : I am not sure but maybe, yes.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

W h a t I h a d s a id t h e y s h o u l d

h a v e fi r s t - b e c a u s e i t w a s a c o r r e c t - it w a s a n e c e s s a r y th i n g t o d o
b u t o u r p r o b le m w a s th a t t h e y h a d n o t c o n s u l te d w i th u s b e f o r e .

We

c o u l d h a v e a l s o a g r e e d b u t t h e is s u e w a s th a t t h e n d o n o t d e l a y t h e
is s u e s t h a t t h e m o n e y w a s m e a n t f o r.
I t - i t s h o u ld n o t d o t h a t. H e n c e t h e n t h e y h a d t h e n t o g o a n d
- a n d f i n d m o n e y s o th a t th o s e is s u e h a p p e n . T h e y h a d to h a p p e n a n d
- a n d w e - w e d i d n o t h a v e a p r o b le m w i t h t h a t b u t w e d i d p ic k u p a
fi g h t w i t h t h e m a n d s a y y o u s h o u ld n o t h a v e d o n e i t b u t w e a r e
20

comfortable.
W e k n o w y o u h a v e r e s e r v e d i t a n d h e r e is t h e p a p e r s a n d
h e r e is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g to u s y o u - y o u h a v e d o n e . S o t h a t - t h a t
is - t h a t is w h a t I h a d e x p la i n e d a ls o b e f o r e C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Yo u s e e C h a ir m a n a n d Mr T h a b e t h e m y

d i ff ic u l ty w i th w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is t h i s w a s y o u r p r o je c t . I t w a s n o t

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
E s ti n a ’s P r o j e c t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s a d e p a r t m e n t p r o je c t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e s e a r e p u b l ic fu n d s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Yo u h a d n o t e v e n r e c e iv e d l e t a lo n e

a p p r o v e d t h e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A t t h is p o i n t w h e n th e y t o o k t h e 2 9 m il li o n
a n d p u t it i n a d i ff e r e n t a c c o u n t . W h y c o u l d y o u n o t s a y to t h e m b r i n g
it b a c k ? W e h a v e n o t - w e d o n o t e v e n k n o w i n t e r m s o f o u r f e a s i b i li ty
is s u e s w h a t w e w i ll o r w il l n o t b e a b l e t o d o .

So how do you start

t h i n k i n g o f p l a c i n g a n o r d e r to m a n u fa c tu r e a n y t h in g w h e n w e - w e h a v e
- w e a r e n o t e v e n o u t o f t h e s ta r t i n g b r a c k e ts y e t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . I - I h e a r C h a ir w h a t - w h a t s h e is
s a y in g . W e - w e h a d e n g a g e d t h a t a f t e r th e y h a v e p r o v id e d u s w i th t h e
r e p o r t t o s a y th is is n o t w h a t w e h a d a g r e e d b u t w e w e r e c o n v i n c e d
w i t h t h e e x p la n a ti o n w it h th e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t i t - i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t
20

w e h a v e t o p l a c e a n d o r d e r o n t i m e f o r y o u to b e a b l e to g e t it b e c a u s e
d u r i n g - e a r li e r o n w h e n th e y h a d n o t e n g a g e d w i t h t h e s e n o n e o f u s
h a d k n o w n h o w m u c h ti m e w e w il l r e q u ir e t o d o th a t …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B u t t h e n th e y s a id t o u s C h a ir o n a l l

t h e s e a c t iv it i e s t h a t y o u e x p e c t u s t o d o t h e r e w o u l d n o t b e a n y d e l a y

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
b e c a u s e t h a t p a r t - t h a t p a r t o f t h e - o f th e e q u ip m e n t w a s s til l p a r t o f
o u r r e s p o n s i b il it y t o d e a l.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s e e M r T h a b e t h e y o u a r e d e a li n g w i th a

d i ff e r e n t q u e s t io n t h a t s h e d id n o t a s k .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k th e q u e s t io n s h e is a s k in g i s w h a t y o u m a y d o
or what may be done …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W it h m o n e y b e f o r e t h e r e is a p r o p e r f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y.
10

S o s h e is s a y i n g w h y a l l o w t h a t t o h a p p e n . W h y a ll o w E s ti n a t o ta k e
t h e m o n e y a n d p u t i t i n t o a n o t h e r a c c o u n t ? S u c h a l o t o f m o n e y. W h e n
a c t u a ll y y o u d o n o t e v e n k n o w w h a t t h e f e a s i b il it y s tu d y w i ll s a y. Th a t
is w h a t s h e i s a s k i n g y o u .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Oh - oh - yes. No. I - I hear it now
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

And can I add to that.

S o m y q u e s t io n

w a s w h y d i d y o u n o t s a y i t i s o u r m o n e y. B r i n g i t b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u a r e p u tt i n g it a t r is k n o w.
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

T h e - th e u n d e r s t a n d in g

t h a t w e h a d C h a i r w e - w e w e r e d o i n g th e d e t a il f e a s i b il it y s t u d y. W e
h a d a lr e a d y d o n e a p r e l i m in a r y f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w h i c h a lr e a d y g a v e a n
in d i c a t io n to u s t h a t in - in d e e d th e s e p r o j e c ts c a n b e d o n e b u t t h e n w e
w e r e g o i n g in t o th e d e t a i ls o f t h e p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s th e r u s h M r T h a b e t h e ? W h y n o t d o th e

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s t u d y - a f u r t h e r s t u d y fi n is h p r o p e r l y a n d t h e n s t a r t i n v o lv i n g m o r e
m o n e y ? W h a t w a s t h e r u s h a b o u t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
any rush.

C h a ir - C h a ir t h e r e - th e r e w a s n o t

W e - w e h a d a lr e a d y a g r e e d a n d s p o k e n h o w t h e m o n e y

w o u ld b e a ll o c a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h e n …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The term s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d o y o u n o t w a i t u n t il t h e - a f in a l f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y
is d o n e ? Yo u s e e w h a t o u t c o m e i t g iv e s y o u …
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u p r o c e e d p r o p e r ly.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y w a s i t n o t d o n e ? T h a t is m y q u e s ti o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is a d i ffi c u l t o n e C h a ir t o a n s w e r.
CHAIRPERSON : But you were the HOD.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u - y o u w e r e in c h a r g e .

were -you were the HOD.

I mean you could - you

Yo u w e r e i n c h a r g e .

Yo u w e r e t h e

A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r.
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u k n e w t h a t if a n y t h i n g w e n t w r o n g w i t h t h e

taxpayers’ money …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d h a v e t o a n s w e r …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f y o u s ta r t e d s p e n d in g s o m e m o n e y a n d a l o t o f
m o n e y b e fo r e th e r e w a s a f in a l s t u d y t h a t t o ld y o u t h a t w h a t y o u a r e what you are - you want to get involved in is viable you would be
p u t t in g t h e t a x p a y e r s m o n e y a t r i s k a n d y o u w o u l d h a v e t o a n s w e r. S o
t h e q u e s t i o n is w h y d i d y o u n o t w a i t u n t il a ll o f t h a t w a s d o n e p r o p e r ly ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I w a s c o n v i n c e d t h a t t h e r e

w o u ld n o t b e a n y p r o b le m .
CHAIRPERSON :

J a , b u t w h a t - w h a t w i ll - i f - e v e n i f y o u a r e

c o n v i n c e d i s i t n o t th e r i g h t t h in g to g e t t h e p a p e r w o r k fi r s t r i g h t - g e t
10

the paperwork right and then start?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is i t … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h y - w h y s ta r t b e f o r e - b e fo r e t h a t - t h a t s t a g e is
done?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r - C h a i r in - i n - I a m - I a m
tr y i n g t o - t o p u t i t t h e c o r r e c t w a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is th a t - h e a d s - H e a d s o f D e p a r t m e n t
w o r k s w i t h i n a t i m e f r a m e . W h e n y o u c o m e i n a n d y o u s a y t h is is w h a t
is g o i n g to b e m y d e l iv e r a b l e s i n te r ms o f m y c o n tr a c t.

20

Yo u h a v e t o

m a k e s u r e th a t t h e d e li v e r a b l e s h a p p e n a s p e r y o u r c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e if
- i f y o u d o n o t d e l iv e r a s p e r y o u r c o n tr a c t t h e n y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e
d e li v e r e d w h a t is e x p e c te d o f y o u .
S o I h a d th e c o n t r a c t a n d - a n d t h o s e t h i n g s w e r e p a r t o f m y
d e li v e r a b l e s o f - o f t h e c o n tr a c t.

So delaying those would mean you

h a v e n o t d e l iv e r e d in t e r m s o f y o u r c o n tr a c t th a t h a s b e e n a g r e e d u p o n .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o I - I h a d a ls o t o w o r k w it h in ti m e

fr a m e s t o s a y b y t h i s t i m e a s i n m y c o n tr a c t th is h a s t o b e d e li v e r e d .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t y o u r c o n tr a c t I t a k e i t d i d n o t r e q u ir e y o u o r

e n t i tl e y o u n o t t o d o th i n g s t h e r i g h t w a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o it d i d n o t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d d o in g t h e f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y f ir s t . Fi n i s h i n g i t ,
s e e i n g w h a t t h e o u tc o m e is b e f o r e e n g a g in g i n c e r t a i n e x p e n s i v e
a s p e c ts o f t h e p r o j e c t w o u ld b e t h e r i g h t w a y. I s i t n o t?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

M s G c a b a s h e I - I le a v e it a t t h a t .

Yo u - y o u

had your own angle.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

C h a ir m a n in f a c t I w a s s i m p l y g o in g t o

d r a w a p a r a l l e l w i t h q u e s ti o n s y o u a s k e d a t a n e a r li e r h e a r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h e n t h e C F O w e n t t o a s k f o r th e 3 0

m il li o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w a n te d i t o n a Fr i d a y a f t e r n o o n
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : At 3 o’ clock.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u a s k e d s i m il a r q u e s t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h y t h e u r g e n c y.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I do not know if you have seen the

tr a n s c r ip t o r t h e e v i d e n c e g i v e n b y M s A n n a Fo u r ie . S h e d e a l t w i th t h a t
aspect …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

A n d t h e C h a ir m a n a s k e d t h e s a m e

q u e s t io n s b u t t h e is s u e I w a n t t o r a is e is t h e f o ll o w i n g . Yo u r c o n t r a c t
c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n th e r e a s o n t h a t y o u w e r e r u s h in g th is b e c a u s e t h e
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l w a s
10

w e ll a w a r e

th a t t h e y o n ly a p p r o v e d

the

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h i s p r o j e c t …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Huh-uh.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

On 13 June 2012.

N o w t h a t w a s q u i te a

w a y - t h r e e m o n t h s in t o th e n e w fi n a n c i a l y e a r. Is th a t n o t c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

N o t o n l y t h a t M r T h a b e th e .

The same

E x c o k n e w t h a t y o u h a d h o p e d t o a ll o c a t e a b u d g e t o f 11 4 m il li o n p e r
a n n u m t o t h is p r o je c t. A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

T h e s a m e E x c o w a s w e ll a w a r e t h a t y o u

h a d to fi n d 8 4 m i ll i o n fo r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f t h i s f in a n c i a l y e a r.

Am I

correct?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h e y w e r e a w a r e o f t h e c o n s tr a i n ts t h a t
y o u w e r e o p e r a ti n g u n d e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

W h y w o u l d y o u fe e l t h a t y o u r c o n tr a c t

c o m p e l l e d y o u t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h is p r o j e c t g o t u n d e r w a y i n t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r fi n a n c i a l y e a r t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t a s m u c h o f t h e 11 4 m il li o n
y o u h a d h o p e d to s p e n d w o u ld in f a c t b e s p e n t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir i n - in m y t h in k i n g h e n c e

w e - w e - l ik e I h a v e i n d i c a t e d t h i s is w h a t h a d a g r e e d a n d t h is i s w h a t
E s ti n a h a d e x p la i n e d t o u s w h ic h I h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h a t w e a r e n o t
c o m f o r t a b l e b u t t h e n a f t e r t h e ir e x p l a n a t io n o n t h e r e a s o n s w e th e n
a g r e e d w i th t h e m .
10

O n t h e b a s is th a t t h e y s p e n t th e ir m o n e y t o c o m p le t e w h a t w e
h a d . I t m e a n s i f t h e r e w a s g o i n g to b e a n y l o s s i n th a t m o n e y i t w o u ld
not be a loss of the department because what we would have asked
t h e m t o d o w i t h th e m o n e y th e y h a d w o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e . S o th a t that guarantee after we have discussed with them.
W e s a id i t i s fi n e y o u c a n g u a r a n t e e t h a t t h e a c t iv it i e s t h a t
w e h a d m o n e y a v a i la b l e f o r m u s t h a p p e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I - I d o n o t k n o w if - i f t h a t a d d r e s s e s t h e - t h e
r e a l i s s u e t h a t M s G c a b a s h e i s - is d r a w i n g y o u r a t te n ti o n t o .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.

20

CHAIRPERSON :

S h e is s a y i n g t h e e x p l a n a ti o n y o u g iv e f o r h a v i n g

d o n e t h in g s th e w r o n g w a y - th e w r o n g w a y i n t e r m s o f m y d is c u s s i o n
w i t h y o u . Th e c o r r e c t w a y w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o d o t h e f e a s i b il it y s tu d y.
H a v e a f in a l f e a s ib il it y s t u d y. S e e t h e o u tc o m e a n d t h e n s t a r t t h i n g s .
Yo u s a i d w e l l t h e r e w e r e c e r ta i n c o n s tr a i n ts p la c e d u p o n y o u b y y o u r
o w n c o n tr a c t w it h t h e d e p a r t m e n t.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i th t h e M E C o r p r e m i e r w h o e v e r i t w a s . S o s h e is
s a y in g b u t t h a t c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n th e r e a s o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . I - I a c c e p t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a c c e p t t h a t . J a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e n th e - th e n e x t q u e s t io n i s t h a t if y o u a c c e p t
10

t h a t t h e r e c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a n y c o n s tr a i n ts o n y o u r c o n tr a c t t h a t
ju s t i fi e d y o u d o i n g th in g s n o t i n t h e c o r r e c t w a y.

W h a t t h e n w a s th e

r e a s o n f o r t h e r u s h i f i t w a s n o t th e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e y o u w e r e
s u g g e s t in g i t w a s y o u r c o n tr a c t ?
N o w y o u a c c e p t t h a t i t w a s n o t y o u r c o n tr a c t . S o w h a t th e n
w a s t h e r e a s o n fo r t h e r u s h ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir th e r e - t h e r e w a s n o t -

t h e r e w a s n o t a r e a s o n f o r t h e r u s h b e c a u s e a l l - a ll t h a t I n e e d e d w a s
t o b e s e e n d e li v e r i n g w h a t I h a d m a d e c o m m i t m e n t t o d e liv e r.
CHAIRPERSON :
20

H m , b u t w h e n y o u - w h e n - d id y o u n o t w a n t t o b e

s e e n d e l iv e r i n g i n t h e c o r r e c t w a y b y d o i n g th i n g s t h e r i g h t w a y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A t - C h a ir a t th a t t i m e m y t h in k i n g

w a s t h a t a f t e r w e h a v e in t e r r o g a t e d a n d d is c u s s e d i t .

We - we then

proceeded.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll i f y o u s ti ll f e lt - i f y o u - if y o u a c c e p t e d t h a t

t h e r e w a s a n e e d fo r a fi n a l fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Then I want to suggest to you that you should only

h a v e s t a r te d d o i n g s o m e th i n g b e f o r e t h e - t h e f in a l fe a s i b i li ty s tu d y w a s
c o m p le t e d i f t h e r e w a s s o m e s p e c i a l r e a s o n .

O th e r w is e y o u j u s t w a i t

f o r th e o u tc o m e o f th e f e a s i b i li ty s tu d y. T h e n y o u - y o u c o n t in u e . S o
b u t i f y o u s a y th e r e w a s r e a lly n o t h i n g t h e n i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t y o u
m a y h a v e d o n e t h i n g s th e w r o n g w a y f o r n o r e a s o n r e a lly.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

M a y - m a y b e C h a ir i t is d i ffic u lt

f o r m e t o u n d e r s t a n d - to g e t i n t o y o u r th in k i n g . I a m - I a m t r y i n g t o
10

s e e w h a t is i t t h a t is …
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

No.

L e t u s g o b a c k . T h e r e i s - t h e r e is t h e

c o r r e c t w a y o f d o i n g t h i n g s a n d t h e r e is a w r o n g w a y o f d o in g th i n g s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

And I thought you and I agree that if in order to

e m b a r k o n a p r o je c t i t is n e c e s s a r y t o d o a fe a s i b il i ty s t u d y …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is …
CHAIRPERSON :
20

Th e r i g h t w a y o f d o in g t h i n g s i s to d o t h e f e a s ib il i ty

s t u d y fir s t - fi r s t . A fi n a l o n e i f y o u w a n t t o c a ll t h a t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e e t h a t i t i s o u t c o m e i s b e f o r e y o u s ta r t th e p r o je c t
…
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u i n c u r a lo t o f e x p e n s e s . W e a g r e e s o fa r ?

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a , j a . W e a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o f a r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : o n - o n ly to t h e p o i n t t o s a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e d e ta i le d fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W i ll t h e n g i v e y o u t h e d e t a il s . T h e t h e in i ti a l f e a s ib il it y d e t a i ls w i ll g iv e y o u t h e g o a h e a d t o s a y t h e r e is
n o p r o b le m in - in d o in g t h is p r o j e c t b u t t h e n y o u n e e d to g o i n to t h e
10

d e t a i ls o f - o f d o in g e v e r y t h i n g t o s a y t h i s is h o w t h is i s g o i n g t o b e
done.
S o th e d e t a i l e d f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y y o u g o i n to it b e c a u s e y o u
a lr e a d y h a v e a g r e e n l ig h t t o s a y th e r e is n o p r o b l e m i n d o in g th is
p r o j e c t h e n c e y o u c a n th e n m o v e t o t h e n e x t .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t y o u - y o u a c c e p t t h a t n o r m a ll y t h e b e s t th i n g

w o u ld b e t o g e t e v e r y t h i n g i n o r d e r i n t e r m s o f t h e s t u d y. U n d e r s t a n d
e v e r y t h i n g a n d s e e e x a c t ly w h a t y o u n e e d t o b e c a r e f u l a b o u t b e fo r e
y o u - y o u m o v e a h e a d b u t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t w e ll th e p r e li m i n a r y
s t u d y g a v e y o u w h a t y o u n e e d e d i n t e r m s o f t h e - th e a p p r o v a l t o s a y
20

y o u c a n g o a h e a d w i th t h i s …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W i t h th is , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u - t h e f i n a l s t u d y w a s g o in g t o g iv e y o u s o m e
d e t a i ls …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : That you needed?

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Ms Gcabashe.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
on one aspect.

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

I j u s t w a n t c l a r it y

E a r l ie r o n w h e n w e l o o k e d a t t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n a n d

t h e n w e l o o k e d a t th e f e a s ib il i ty s tu d y d i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o s a y t h a t
t h a t s h o r t b u s i n e s s p l a n w a s i n e ff e c t t h e f e a s i b i li t y s tu d y - t h e
p r e l i mi n a r y f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y t h a t w e a r e t a l k in g a b o u t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : I see we are past 4 o’ clock.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n a n d I w a s …
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t m a y - m a y b e - I th o u g h t w e w o u ld s t o p a t f o u r

b e c a u s e m o r e o r le s s o u r p l a n is t h a t M r Th a b e t h e w o u ld c o m e b a c k
b u t w e c o u l d - w e c o u l d g o u p to h a l f p a s t i f i t is - i f - i f th a t is
n e c e s s a r y t o c o m p l e t e w h a te v e r y o u w a n t.

I am - I do not have a

p r o b le m .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

C h a i r m a n I w o u ld p r e f e r to s t o p n o w.

I

ju s t w a n t t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

P l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t th e b u s in e s s p l a n

t h a t M r Th a b e t h e h a d i d e n ti f ie d a s th e p r e l i mi n a r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

P l a n is t h e o n e in t h e R e p o r t s B u n d l e

w h ic h w e s p o k e o f e a r li e r t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t r u n s fr o m p a g e 3 2 1 u p t o p a g e 3 2 0 -

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
330 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h a t i t i s Mr T h a b e t h e fr o m w h a t y o u
a r e s a y i n g is o n t h e b a s is o f t h is …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Of this …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ve r y t h in d o c u m e n t I a m h o l d i n g u p …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :
10

T h a t y o u w e r e p r e p a r e d to r u s h t h i s

project?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir i f w e m ig h t a d j o u r n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t i s …
CHAIRPERSON :
Mr Thabethe.

N o t h a t is f in e .

We - we are going to adjourn

W e h a v e n o t fi n is h e d a n d w e a r e a d jo u r n i n g i n

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e I a m n o t a n n o u n c i n g n o w w h e n y o u m u s t c o m e
b a c k b u t I t h i n k C o u n s e l w il l s e e m e a f t e r t h is a n d t h e r e w i ll b e a
20

d is c u s s io n a b o u t w h e n y o u m u s t c o m e b a c k b u t i t w il l - i t w il l n o t t a k e
lo n g b e fo r e y o u c o m e b a c k .
S o y o u r - y o u r C o u n s e l w i ll - w i ll le t y o u k n o w w h a t d a t e w e
h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t a n d t h e n i f n e c e s s a r y th e C o m m i s s io n c a n s e n d
w r i t t e n n o ti fi c a t io n o f w h a t t h e d a t e i s a f t e r w a r d s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m f i n e C h a ir.

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t a lr i g h t?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t f i n e ? H u h - u h .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ve r y b r i e f ly. I a m s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t it is a n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t m y c o l le a g u e
h a s j u s t p o in t e d o u t t o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t th e d a t e o f t h a t b u s i n e s s p l a n …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Th e s o c a l le d p r e li m i n a r y fe a s ib il i ty p l a n

…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I s O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

S o I l e a v e y o u w i th t h a t s o y o u c a n

p r e p a r e fo r n e x t t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t w e w i ll i n te r r o g a te t h a t w i t h y o u .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : And were - were in September …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f w h a t w e w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t?

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th is w a s J u ly C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th is w a s a c t u a l ly J u l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

All the way through.

I t is J u ly, A u g u s t,

S e p te m b e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t th e m o n e y w a s - t h e fi r s t a m o u n t w a s
p a i d i n J u ly …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t i t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e p o in t b e i n g t h e r e c o u l d n o t
h a v e b e e n t h e c o m f o r t t h a t h e s a y s t h e p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o r t s tu d y f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w o u l d h a v e g iv e n h i m - c o u l d n o t h a v e g iv e n h i m
b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t th e r e a t t h e ti m e . T h a t i s t h e p o i n t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC :

Ye s a n d I m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u r q u e s ti o n .

S o r r y C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC : In September …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y s t a r t e d p u t t in g m o n e y i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f th a t w a s - t h e f ir s t 2 5 0 0 0 0 a n d t h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is w h a t I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s a n d t h e n e x t 3 . 7 m il li o n .

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04 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 177
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e y p u t in , i n S e p t e m b e r a n d O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u r q u e s t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y, a lr i g h t . A lr ig h t w e w i ll a d j o u r n t h e n a n d
t h e n w e w i ll t a lk a b o u t d a t e s j u s t n o w. W e a d jo u r n .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 7 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

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