C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

04 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 5 6

20

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 4 SEPT EMB ER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Mr C h a ir m a n t h e w it n e s s
t h a t w e i n t e n d c a l li n g m e t h i s m o r n i n g is M r J o n a th a n T h e k is o . Th a t –
h is s ta t e m e n t – t h e r e is t w o b u n d le s b e f o r e y o u M r C h a ir th e y w o u l d b e
m a r k e d E x h i b i t C C 1 7 . 1 a n d E x h ib i t C C 1 7 . 2 to C C 1 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that?
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 17 – Exhibit CC17.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And the next – the second one – he has
t w o s t a te m e n ts th e o n e is i n t h a t b u n d l e a n d th e o t h e r o n e i s in E x h i b i t
C C 1 7 .2 t h a t is w h e r e h is s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e – o h w h y i s i t w r i t t e n i n s u c h s m a l l l e t te r s 1 7 . 1
and 17.2?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P o in t 2 . O h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e I ju s t s e e o n t h i s o n e C C 1 7 a n d I a m t r y i n g to
lo o k f o r C C 1 7 . 1 th e n I r e a l is e a f t e r s o m e ti m e t h a t …

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h th e y u s e d a s m a ll e r fo n t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . W h a t p a g e is h is s t a t e m e n t ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

H i s s t a t e m e n t i n C C 1 7 . 1 i s th e v e r y fir s t

s t a te m e n t . I t w il l b e u n d e r t h e d iv id e r m a r k e d C C 1 7 . A n d i t s t a r ts f r o m
p a g e 1 t h e s t a te m e n t i ts e l f a n d t h e n th e r e s t a r e a n n e x u r e s . S t a t e m e n t
it g o e s – s t a r ts fr o m p a g e 1 u p t o p a g e 1 0 a n d th e r e m a i n d e r a r e

Page 2 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
annexures.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll u n d e r d i v i d e r 1 7 I h a v e g o t a S A B C l e t t e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t d o e s th e l e tt e r s a y M r C h a i r m a n ?
CHAIRPERSON: Under divider 17.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n C C 1 7 . 1 I h a v e g o t a l e t te r fr o m – w i th t h e

le t t e r h e a d s o f S A B C n o t a s ta t e m e n t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o I t h i n k – I t h in k Mr C h a ir m a n y o u

lo o k in g – i f y o u c o u l d l o o k a t t h e f il e d iv id e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us – let us.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F il e d iv id e r C C .
CHAIRPERSON: Let us start afresh. 17.1 is that the correct one?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is t h e c o r r e c t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. R ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n i f y o u tu r n t h a t f il e y o u w il l fi n d a
d iv i d e r t h a t is m a r k e d C C 1 7 .1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . I t h o u g h t i t w a s –

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t i s t h e n h is i n i t ia l s t a te m e n t a n d th e n
a s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t i t is in C C 1 7 .2 w h ic h is i n t h e l e v e r a r c h fil e
m a r k e d C C 1 7 .2 t o C C 1 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s – is t h e r e a n o t h e r s t a te m e n t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of his there?

Page 3 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e r e d o I f i n d it ? I s it r i g h t a t t h e t o p a s w e l l ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t w il l b e o n t o p y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is a s u p p le m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I t s t a r ts fr o m p a g e 3 3 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Thank you.

O k a y.

Thank you Mr

C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Now before we start I am going to ask you to – in

r e g a r d t o e a c h w i t n e s s t o m e n ti o n to i n d ic a te w h a t e a c h w i tn e s s ’
e v i d e n c e – u n d e r w h a t p a r t o f e a c h w i tn e s s ’ e v i d e n c e w i ll f a l l in t h e
t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e s o t h a t I a m s a ti s f i e d t h a t w e a r e – t h e w i t n e s s i s
g o i n g t o b e g iv in g e v id e n c e th a t f a l ls u n d e r t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . I
a m j u s t g o in g t o t a k e s o m e t i m e t o r e fr e s h o u r m e m o r y a b o u t t h e t e r m s
o f r e f e r e n c e b e c a u s e I m u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t th e e v i d e n c e t h a t I h e a r
f a ll s w i th i n o u r te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e .

T h e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e r e a d a s

f o ll o w s :
“ A ju d ic i a l c o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y t h e c o m m is s io n i s h e r e b y a p p o in t e d i n
t e r m s o f S e c t io n 8 2 ( 2 ) F o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n o f th e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h
20

A fr ic a 1 9 9 6 .
T h e c o m m is s i o n i s a p p o i n te d t o in v e s t i g a t e m a t t e r s o f p u b li c a n d
n a t io n a l i n te r e s t s c o n c e r n i n g a l le g a ti o n s o f s ta t e c a p tu r e , c o r r u p t io n
a n d fr a u d . ”
Then they say under 1.
“ T h e c o m m is s i o n s h a ll in q u ir e in t o m a k e f in d i n g s , r e p o r t

Page 4 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
o n a n d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s c o n c e r n i n g th e f o l l o w in g
g u i d e d b y t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r ’s S t a t e o f C a p t u r e R e p o r t ,
the

c o n s ti t u t i o n ,

relevant

l e g is la t io n ,

p o l ic ie s

and

g u i d e li n e s a s w e l l a s t h e o r d e r o f t h e N o r t h G a u t e n g h i g h
court

of

14

December

2017

under

case

number

9 11 3 9 / 2 0 1 6 .
1 .1 W h e t h e r a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t a n d b y w h o m a t t e m p ts
were made through any form of inducement or for
a n y g a in w h a ts o e v e r – o r fo r a n y g a i n o f w h a ts o e v e r
10

n a t u r e t o i n fl u e n c e m e m b e r s t h e N a ti o n a l E x e c u t iv e
in c l u d i n g D e p u ty M i n is t e r s , o ffic e b e a r e r s a n d o r
f u n c t i o n a r ie s e m p l o y e d b y o r o ff ic e b e a r e r s o f a n y
s t a te i n s ti t u ti o n o r o r g a n s o f s ta t e o r d i r e c t o r s o f t h e
b o a r d s o f S O E ’s . In p a r t ic u l a r t h e c o m m i s s i o n m u s t
in v e s t i g a t e t h e v e r a c i ty o f a ll e g a t i o n s t h a t fo r m e r
D e p u ty M i n i s t e r o f F in a n c e , Mr M c e b is i J o n a s a n d
M s M e n to o r w e r e o ff e r e d c a b in e t p o s i t io n s b y t h e
G u p t a fa m i ly. T h a t is 1 . 1 .
1 .2 W h e t h e r t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d a n y r o l e i n t h e a ll e g e d

20

o ffe r s o f c a b i n e t p o s i t io n s to Mr M c e b is i J o n a s a n d
M s M e n t o o r b y t h e G u p t a f a m i ly a s a ll e g e d .
1 .3 W h e t h e r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a n y m e m b e r o f t h e
N a t io n a l E x e c u tiv e f u n c ti o n a r y a n d o r o ff ic e b e a r e r
w a s d is c l o s e d t o t h e G u p t a f a m il y o r a n y o t h e r
u n a u th o r is e d p e r s o n b e f o r e s u c h a p p o i n t m e n ts w e r e

Page 5 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
f o r m a l ly m a d e a n d o r a n n o u n c e d . A n d if s o w h e t h e r
the

P r e s id e n t

or

any

member

of

the

N a ti o n a l

E x e c u t iv e is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r s u c h c o n d u c t .
1 .4 W h e t h e r t h e P r e s i d e n t o r a n y m e m b e r o f t h e p r e s e n t
or

p r e v io u s

in c l u d i n g

members

d e p u ty

of

his

m in is t e r s

national

or

p u b li c

e x e c u t iv e
o ffic i a l

or

e m p l o y e e o f a n y s t a t e o w n e d e n t it i e s b r e a c h e d o r
v io l a t e d th e c o n s t it u ti o n o r a n y r e l e v a n t e t h ic a l c o d e
o r l e g is la t io n b y f a c il i ta t in g th e u n la w f u l a w a r d i n g o f
10

t e n d e r s b y S O E ’s o r a n y o r g a n o f s t a t e t o b e n e fi t t h e
G u p t a f a mi ly o r a n y o t h e r f a m i ly o r i n d iv i d u a l o r
c o r p o r a t e e n t i ty d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i t h g o v e r n m e n t o r
any organ of state.
1 .5 T h e n a t u r e a n d e x t e n t o f c o r r u p ti o n i f a n y i n t h e
a w a r d in g

of

c o n tr a c ts ,

tenders

to

c o m p a n ie s ,

b u s i n e s s e n t i ti e s o r o r g a n is a ti o n s b y p u b lic e n t i ti e s
lis t e d u n d e r Sc h e d u le 2 o f th e P u b l i c F i n a n c e
Management Act Number 1 of 1999 as amended.
1 .6 W h e t h e r
20

th e r e

were

any

ir r e g u l a r it i e s ,

undue

e n r ic h m e n t , c o r r u p ti o n a n d u n d u e i n fl u e n c e i n t h e
a w a r d in g o f c o n tr a c ts , m in i n g lic e n c e s , g o v e r n m e n t
a d v e r t is in g i n t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r a n d a n y o t h e r
g o v e r n m e n t s e r v i c e s i n t h e b u s in e s s d e a li n g s o f t h e
Gupta

f a m i ly

w i th

government

S O E ’s .

Page 6 of 173

d e p a r t m e n ts

and

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
1 .7 W h e t h e r a n y m e m b e r o f th e N a ti o n a l E x e c u ti v e a n d
in c l u d i n g D e p u t y M i n i s te r s u n l a w f u lly o r c o r r u p t ly o r
i m p r o p e r ly i n te r v e n e d in th e m a t te r o f t h e c l o s i n g o f
b a n k i n g f a c i li t ie s f o r G u p t a o w n e d c o m p a n i e s .
1 .8 W h e t h e r a n y a d v i c e a s i n t h e Mi n is tr y o f F in a n c e
were

a p p o in t e d

w i th o u t

proper

procedures

in

p a r t ic u l a r a n d a s a l le g e d in th e c o m p l a in t t o th e
P u b l ic P r o te c t o r w h e th e r t w o s e n i o r a d v is o r s w h o
w e r e a p p o in t e d b y M in is t e r D e s Va n R o o y e n to t h e
10

N a t io n a l

Tr e a s u r y

were

so

a p p o in t e d

without

f o ll o w i n g p r o p e r p r o c e d u r e s .
1 .9 T h e n a t u r e a n d e x t e n t o f c o r r u p ti o n i f a n y i n t h e
a w a r d in g o f c o n tr a c t s a n d t e n d e r s t o c o m p a n ie s ,
b u s i n e s s e n t i ti e s o r o r g a n is a ti o n s b y g o v e r n m e n t
d e p a r t m e n ts , a g e n c i e s a n d e n ti ti e s i n p a r t ic u l a r
w h e t h e r a n y m e m b e r o f t h e N a ti o n a l Ex e c u ti v e
in c l u d i n g t h e P r e s i d e n t , p u b lic o ffi c i a l , f u n c t io n a r y o f
any organ

o f s ta t e i n fl u e n c e d

th e a w a r d i n g

of

t e n d e r s to b e n e fi t t h e m s e lv e s , t h e ir f a m il ie s o r
20

e n t i ti e s i n w h ic h t h e y h e l d a p e r s o n a l in t e r e s t .
2 . T h e s e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e m a y b e a d d e d to v a r i e d o r
a m e n d e d f r o m t i m e to t i m e . ”
S o w e n e e d t o a l w a y s b e a r i n mi n d w h a t t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f th e
c o m m i s s io n a r e a n d I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e th a t w e fa ll w i t h i n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Th a n k y o u C h a ir t h e e v i d e n c e th a t

Page 7 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
w e a r e le a d i n g is a c o n ti n u a t io n o f w h a t w e s t a r e d . W e s ta r t e d th is la s t
y e a r w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f D o c t o r K a u f m a n n w h o h a d id e n ti fi e d w h a t
s t a te c a p t u r e i s a n d h e h a d t e s t i fi e d t h a t i f y o u c a p t u r e t h e m e d ia t h a t
is s t a t e c a p t u r e . W e c o n ti n u e d w it h t h a t e v id e n c e t h r o u g h t h e e v i d e n c e
o f M r S u n d a r a m w h o in d ic a t e d t h e a t te m p t s to c a p tu r e th e T V s t a t i o n s .
S o th is i s a c o n t in u a ti o n o f t h a t . A n d C h a ir w o u l d r e c a ll th a t C h a ir h a s
a l w a y s to ld u s t h a t h e n e e d s t o a n s w e r t h r e e q u e s t io n s .

Th e f ir s t

q u e s t io n is w h a t h a p p e n e d ? T h e s e c o n d q u e s ti o n is h o w d i d i t h a p p e n ?
A n d th e th ir d q u e s ti o n i s w h a t m u s t d o n e in o r d e r t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t
10

d o e s n o t r e c u r ? N o w s t a t e c a p t u r e a s i t is t h is p h e n o m e n o n d o e s n o t
c o m e a s t h e C h a ir w o u l d k n o w i n a b u n d l e i d e n t i fi e d a s s t a te c a p t u r e .
W e a r e a d d u c i n g e v i d e n c e to s h o w h o w t h e a t te m p t s w e r e m a d e a n d
t h a t w il l f a l l s q u a r e ly w it h in 1 . 1 o f t h e te r m s o f r e f e r e n c e b e c a u s e t h e r e
– t h e r e is r e f e r e n c e – i n f a c t t h e p r e a m b l e t h a t th e C h a ir h a s r e a d :
“ T h e c o m m i s s i o n i s a p p o i n te d t o i n v e s t ig a te m a t t e r s
o f p u b lic a n d n a ti o n a l i n t e r e s t c o n c e r n i n g a l le g a ti o n s
o f s t a t e c a p t u r e , c o r r u p t io n a n d f r a u d .

So we are

d e a li n g w i t h s t a t e c a p tu r e l a r g e ly o f – o r a tt e m p ts to
c a p tu r e th e m e d i a a n d th a t is w h a t w e s t a r te d a s I
20

in d i c a t e d e a r l ie r.

A n d i f o n e lo o k s a t 1 .1 t h a t is

b a s e d o n t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r R e p o r t S t a t e C a p t u r e
Report.

W h e th e r a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t a n d b y w h o m

a tt e m p ts w e r e m a d e th r o u g h a n y fo r m o f i n d u c e m e n t
o r fo r a n y g a i n o f w h a ts o e v e r n a t u r e to i n fl u e n c e
m e m b e r s o f t h e N a t io n a l E x e c u tiv e i n c l u d in g D e p u ty

Page 8 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M i n is t e r s ,

o ff ic e

bearers

and

employed

by

o ff ic e

bearers

or

or

f u n c ti o n a r i e s
of

any

state

in s t i tu t io n s o r o r g a n s o f s ta t e o r d ir e c t o r s o r b o a r d o f
S O E ’s . ”
A n d th e n i n p a r t ic u l a r. S o t h e p o i n t th a t y o u a r e m a k in g C h a ir i s t h a t i f
t h e r e a r e i n fl u e n c e s o f e d i t o r ia l p o li c i e s t h e y a r e i n fl u e n c e s t h a t d ir e c t
t h e w a y in w h ic h n e w s m u s t b e b r o a d c a s t t o th e p u b lic .

That is a

m a t t e r o f n a ti o n a l i n te r e s t . A n d C h a ir h a d a l lo w e d t h is e v i d e n c e o f M r
S u n d a r a m t ie d i n w i t h t h a t o f D o c t o r K a u f m a n n a n d w e b e li e v e th a t
10

t h e s e a r e m a t te r s t h a t a r e c r i ti c a l a n d th e y w i ll s h o w – f o r i n s t a n c e t h i s
w i t n e s s is g o i n g t o s h o w h o w i n th a t w h o l e p r o c e s s o f e x e c u t in g t h i s
a n d – th is a n i m a l c a l le d s t a t e c a p t u r e h o w s k il l e d p r o fe s s i o n a ls w e r e
a s k e d to l e a v e . Yo u w il l fi n d f o r e x a m p l e a n d e x a m p le o f a p e r s o n w h o
is t o l d g o h o m e w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t s t il l h a s a p e r i o d o f fiv e y e a r s to r u n .
B u t h e is t o ld n o y o u c a n h o m e .

W il l y o u S A B C w il l w a i v e a ll o f i ts

r ig h ts . Yo u c a n g o h o m e a n d t h e n w e w i ll s i m p l y p a y y o u fo r t h a t. T h a t
is w h a t t h is w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e is g o in g t o b e a b o u t .

About the

c o n s i s te n t m a n n e r in w h i c h e x e c u ti v e s th a t c o u l d h a v e p e r h a p s
p r o t e c t e d t h e S A B C f r o m t h e s i t u a ti o n w h i c h w e d e s c r i b e d th e p a s t t w o
20

days.

A ll o f th o s e e m p lo y e e s w e r e a s k e d l o n g b e fo r e t h e ir t e r m s

e x p ir e d , y o u g o y o u s it a t h o m e a n d t h e n i n th e p r o c e s s t h e y w i ll
e m p l o y a n a c ti n g p e r s o n a n d in t h e p r o c e s s t h e y p a y R 1 2 m il li o n , R 5
m il li o n , R 4 m il li o n . S o t h a t is t h e – t h a t t o u s C h a ir is r e le v a n t b e c a u s e
it d e m o n s tr a te s h o w s o m e o f t h e a c ti o n s t h a t a r e g o in g t o c o m e l a t e r
ti e d i n w it h w h a t w e a r e d e m o n s tr a t in g n o w w o u ld a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y

Page 9 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
e n a b l e u s a s t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r s to m a k e t h e s u b m i s s i o n s t o y o u t h a t
in d e e d th is fe ll w i t h i n th e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e 1 .1 a n d it w a s i n d e e d
s t a te c a p tu r e a s t h e s e w i t n e s s e s a r e g o i n g to d e a l w i th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u s e e M r S u n d a r a m ’s e v i d e n c e w a s ti e d i n w i th
t h e p r o j e c t o f – t h e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h e N e w A g e a n d A N N 7 a n d t h e r e
is a s p e c if ic r e f e r e n c e to t h e N e w A g e i n t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th a t w a s fi n e .

I t i s c o n n e c t e d w it h th e G u p t a

f a m ily a n d t h e r e is s p e c i f ic r e f e r e n c e t o i t t o in th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e .
10

N o w i t is n o t e v e r y w r o n g d o in g th a t m a y h a v e b e e n h a p p e n i n g i n
v a r io u s s t a te o w n e d e n ti t ie s o r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts t h a t fa ll s
w i t h i n t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e

It has got to be wrongdoing that can be

c o n n e c t e d w i th t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e . A s I w a s r e a d i n g t h e m :
1 . Is c o n n e c t io n w i t h s ta t e c a p t u r e .
2 . Is t o a v e r y l a r g e e x t e n t c o r r u p t io n a n d f r a u d t h a t is c o n n e c t e d
w i t h c o n tr a c ts – th e a w a r d i n g o f c o n tr a c ts a n d te n d e r s .
S o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e r e m a y w e l l b e a l o t o f w r o n g d o in g t h a t m a y h a v e
b e e n h a p p e n in g i n g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a n d s ta t e o w n e d e n t it i e s
w h ic h w a s b a d a n d w h ic h s h o u l d b e d e a l t w i t h b u t w h ic h m i g h t f a l l
20

o u t s i d e t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h e c o m m i s s io n .

S o i t is i m p o r t a n t

t h e r e f o r e th a t w h e n w e l o o k a t w r o n g d o i n g w e a r e a b le t o li n k i t to
c h e c k w h e t h e r i t l in k s w i t h t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . N o w I m e a n I h a v e –
I h a v e r e a d a ll t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e .

M o s t o f th e m a r e li n k e d t o

tenders and doing business – outsiders doing business with organs of
s t a te o r o r g a n s o f – o r c a b in e t m i n i s t e r s , d e p u ty m i n is t e r s , o th e r

Page 10 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
f u n c t i o n a r ie s a n d o ffic e b e a r e r s i n g o v e r n m e n t – i n s t a te o w n e d e n ti ti e s
a n d g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts d o i n g c e r t a in w r o n g t h i n g s in o r d e r t o
f a v o u r c e r t a i n in d iv i d u a ls w i t h g o v e r n m e n t b u s i n e s s a n d s o o n .

So I

a m k e e n th a t w e l o o k a t i t p r o p e r ly. Yo u s a y t h is w i tn e s s ’ e v i d e n c e w il l
f a ll u n d e r 1 .1 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is r i g h t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w y o u k n o w 1 .1 a p p e a r s to h a v e a p r o b le m a n d y o u
10

m i g h t b e a b l e t o a s s i s t m e w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m . B e fo r e – b e fo r e
w h e r e it s a y s : i n p a r t ic u l a r a n d t h e n i t t a lk s a b o u t M r M c e b is i J o n a s
a n d M s M e n t o o r b e f o r e t h a t s e n t e n c e i t d o e s n o t a p p e a r to b e
c o m p le t e . I t is w h e th e r a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t a n d b y w h o m a tt e m p t s w e r e
m a d e t h r o u g h a n y f o r m o f i n d u c e m e n t o r f o r a n y g a i n o f w h a ts o e v e r
n a t u r e t o i n fl u e n c e m e m b e r s o f t h e N a ti o n a l E x e c u t iv e in c l u d i n g D e p u ty
M i n is t e r s , o ff ic e r b e a r e r s a n d o r fu n c t i o n a r i e s e m p l o y e d b y o r o ff ic e
b e a r e r s o f a n y s t a t e i n s t it u ti o n o r o r g a n o f s t a te o r d ir e c to r s o f th e
b o a r d s o f S O E ’s . T h e n i t d o e s n o t s a y a t t e m p ts t o in f lu e n c e t h e m t o d o
what?

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Th a t is – C h a ir w o u ld r e c a ll t h a t

r ig h t a t t h e o u t s e t w h e n th e c o m m i s s i o n c o m m e n c e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A s t h e le g a l t e a m w e h a d m a d e

s u b m is s io n s o n t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 11 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A s t o h o w th e y s h o u l d b e i n t e r p r e t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: How far should they go?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t o w h a t e x t e n t c a n t h e y b e li m i t e d i f
t h e y h a v e t o b e li m i t e d ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

S o t h a t i s t h e c h a l le n g e w e h a v e .

For

example if you take the SABC.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h e c o n tr a c ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e a r e g o i n g t o c a ll o n e o r – o n e o f th e
f o r m e r M i n i s t e r s t o c o m e a n d e x p la in t o y o u h o w c e r t a i n c o n tr a c t s w e r e
entered into.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t w e a r e g o i n g t o a ls o s h o w y o u h o w

s k i ll e d p e o p le w e r e r e m o v e d i n o r d e r to e n a b l e p e o p l e w h o w e r e n o t
q u a li fi e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To b e p u t i n t h o s e p l a c e s s o a s t o e n a b le .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV

TH A N D I

NORMAN

SC:

S ta t e

c a p tu r e

to

happen.

And

u n f o r t u n a t e ly w i t h o u t u s d o in g th a t w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e a b l e t o
a s s is t y o u w h e n a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y w e h a v e t o s u b m it a r e p o r t a n d

Page 12 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
d e a l w it h w h a t i s i t t h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h i n th e S A B C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e i f y o u – i f y o u l e a d e v i d e n c e t h a t s h o w s h o w
– th a t s h o w s w r o n g d o i n g th a t w a s c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e a w a r d in g o f
c o n tr a c ts a n d th a t w r o n g d o i n g w o u l d h a v e b e e n a g a i n s t th e p o li c i e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f th e – o f S A B C p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s t h a t – t h a t
s h o u l d b e fi n e . T h a t w o u l d b e fi n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i t w i ll b e . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t m ig h t n o t – y o u m i g h t n o t e v e n n e e d 1 .1 w h ic h
10

does not seem to have a value.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. I t m ig h t fa ll u n d e r – u n d e r – u n d e r 1 . 4 /
“ W h e th e r th e Pr e s id e n t o r a n y m e m b e r o f t h e p r e s e n t
o f p r e v io u s m e m b e r s o f h is N a ti o n a l Ex e c u tiv e o r
p u b lic o ffic i a l o r e m p lo y e e o f a n y s t a te o w n e d
e n t i ti e s b r e a c h e d o r v i o la t e d t h e c o n s ti t u t io n o r a n y
r e l e v a n t e th ic a l c o d e o r le g i s l a ti o n b y f a c i li ta t in g th e
u n l a w f u l a w a r d i n g o f t e n d e r s b y S O E ’s o r a n y o r g a n
o f s ta t e to b e n e f it t h e G u p t a fa m i ly o r a n y o t h e r
f a m ily

20

or

i n d iv id u a l

or

c o r p o r a te

e n ti ty

doing

b u s i n e s s w i t h g o v e r n m e n t o r o r g a n o f s ta t e . ”
I f y o u – if y o u li n k it t o t h e a w a r d in g o f c o n tr a c ts i t s h o u l d fa ll u n d e r
that.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t w il l – C h a ir t h e d i ff ic u l t y i s o n e w i t h t h e
e v i d e n c e a s i t p r o g r e s s e s I c a n n o t t a k e th is w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e

Page 13 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
in d i v i d u a lly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d s a y th is e v i d e n c e o n it s o w n w i ll s h o w
y o u s ta t e c a p t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I h a v e to l i n k i t w i t h t h e o t h e r e v i d e n c e

t h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o l e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

A n d t h e n y o u w il l s e e h o w t h e p r o c e s s

it s e l f u n f o l d e d a n d h o w w e g e t t o t h e p o i n t o f t h e c o n tr a c ts . B e c a u s e
in th e – i n th e e s t a b l is h m e n t y o u n e e d p e o p le w h o a r e g o in g to
f a c i li t a te p r o c u r e m e n t a n d w e a r e g o i n g t o s h o w y o u h o w p e o p l e w e r e
removed and who was replaced and how that process unfolded right up
t o th e s ta g e t h e n w h e n c o n t r a c t s w e r e e n t e r e d i n to , w h e n p o li c i e s w e r e
c h a n g e d . S o t h a t is th e p r o c e s s th a t y o u a r e fo ll o w i n g . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s l o n g a s i n th e e n d th e r e w il l b e t h a t l i n k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e r e w il l – t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w il l b e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ja.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I w o u l d li k e i f I c o u l d b e g iv e n a m e m o r a n d u m

t h a t in d u e c o u r s e t h a t w il l s h o w t h a t in t h e e n d t h is is h o w t h e
w i t n e s s e s w i ll l i n k u p .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I t h in k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir e v i d e n c e w i ll l i n k u p .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s C h a ir n o I t h i n k t h e r e is a

Page 14 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
m e m o r a n d u m t h a t I h a d s u b m i t te d to y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t I c a n u p d a te t h a t m e m o r a n d u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u c a n u p d a te t h a t – t h a t m e m o r a n d u m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s j a b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s w e – a s w e p r o c e e d I m e a n I w il l t a k e i t t h a t
t h a t i s w h a t y o u – t h a t is w h a t y o u a r e p l a n n i n g t o d o to e n d u p li n k in g ;
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h – w i t h w h a t o t h e r s w i t n e s s e s w i ll s a y.
10

M S Y O L A N D E VA N B I LJ O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t t h a t t h e p o i n t is a l w a y s t h a t y o u a r e

lo o k in g a t h o w c e r t a i n w r o n g th i n g s w e r e d o n e in o r d e r to i n fl u e n c e th e
a w a r d in g o f c o n tr a c ts a n d b u s in e s s t o c e r t a i n in d iv i d u a ls o r c o m p a n i e s
and so on.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g fi n e ?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t w il l l e a d – C h a i r I w o u l d n o t b e l e a d i n g
t h is e v id e n c e i f i t d i d n o t ti e u p w i t h t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is a n a s s u r a n c e t h a t I c a n g iv e y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o I m u s t – I m u s t b e s a ti s f i e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I k n o w C h a ir b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t b e s a t is fi e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a t is fy y o u r s e l f b u t I m u s t a ls o b e s a t is fi e d .

Page 15 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . N o t r u e , tr u e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t a ls o C h a i r i n t h e r u l e s y o u h a v e m a d e
it o u r o b l i g a t io n a s th e l e g a l te a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o p l a c e e v i d e n c e

b e f o r e y o u a n d I w o u l d n o t p la c e a n y e v i d e n c e t h a t I r e g a r d e d a s
ir r e l e v a n t t o t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . A n d t h e e v id e n c e th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o Ms N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o Ms N o r m a n . Yo u m u s t s a ti s fy y o u r s e l f th a t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t th e e v i d e n c e is r e l e v a n t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e f a c t t h a t y o u h a v e s a t is fi e d y o u r s e l f d o e s n o t
m e a n t h a t I a m s a ti s fi e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

20

Ye s .

C h a ir h a s n o t h e a r d t h e e v id e n c e

t h a t i s t h e d i ffe r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t b e fo r e it i s l e d I m u s t s a t is fy my s e l f t h a t i t

w i ll b e r e le v a n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir I h a d p l a c e d … .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e I s h o u l d n o t a ll o w e v id e n c e t h a t i s n o t

r e l e v a n t.

Page 16 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o tr u e I a c c e p t t h a t C h a ir b u t I h a d

p l a c e d th is e v id e n c e b e f o r e C h a i r l a s t w e e k W e d n e s d a y a n d a s I h a v e
e x p l a i n e d t o C h a ir t h i s e v i d e n c e i s r e l e v a n t b e c a u s e i t s h o w s t h a t t h e
e n a b l e r s o f s t a t e c a p t u r e h a d d e c i d e d to r e m o v e s k il le d p e o p l e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Norman.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms Norman.

I m u s t b e s a t is fi e d t h a t th e e v i d e n c e

t h a t i s b e i n g l e d is r e l e v a n t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d fa ll s w it h in t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t m a k e a r u li n g w h e t h e r i t s h o u l d le d o r i t s h o u l d
n o t b e le d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a s s is ti n g m e t o d o t h is j o b .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
s a ti s f i e d .

A n d y o u a r e d o i n g q u i t e w e ll b u t I s ti ll n e e d t o b e

S o th a t is w h y i t i s i m p o r t a n t if I h a v e q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u

m a k e s u b m i s s i o n s t o s a y w e h a v e s u b m i t i t is r e le v a n t b e c a u s e o f a , b ,
20

c, d.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I l is t e n to w h a t y o u h a v e to s a y i f I a m p e r s u a d e d
I agree if I am not persuaded I do not agree.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 17 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

No I hear you Chair I have made

s u b m is s io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t th is e v i d e n c e i s r e l e v a n t b e c a u s e it
is g o i n g to ti e in w i t h o th e r e v i d e n c e t h a t is g o i n g t o s h o w u l ti m a t e ly
h o w t h e c o n tr a c ts w e r e h a n d l e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o i n p r i n c ip l e th a t s h o u ld b e fi n e . S o d o g i v e m e
t h a t m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u s a y y o u w il l u p d a t e b u t a s w e g o a lo n g w i t h
every witness.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e m u s t ju s t k e e p i n m i n d t h a t w e a r e w i th in t h e

terms of reference.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I a c c e p t t h a t s o m e ti m e s i t m a y b e d i ff ic u l t t o

s h o w w i t h t h e r e l e v a n c e w it h r e g a r d t o a p a r ti c u la r w i t n e s s b e c a u s e t h e
r e l e v a n c e m ig h t b e c o m e c l e a r e r w h e n a n o t h e r w it n e s s c o m e s l a te r o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To g iv e – t h a t I a c c e p t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

That it might happen.

So – and to that extent you

m i g h t b e a w a r e o f s o m e w i tn e s s e s w h o a r e g o in g to c o m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h o mi g h t c l a r if y c e r ta in th i n g s b u t i t is i m p o r t a n t

t h a t t h r o u g h o u t w e k e e p a t t h e b a c k o f o u r m i n d s th a t w e w a n t to f a l l
w i t h i n th e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e .

Page 18 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t . A lr ig h t th e n . L e t u s …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us - let us then have the witness sworn in.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : J o n a t h a n T h e k i s o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : I d o n o t .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : S o h e lp m e G o d .
20

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y s t a r t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

M r T h e k is o

p l e a s e c o u l d y o u s w i tc h o n y o u r m ic ? T h a n k y o u . Yo u h a v e tw o f il e s
n e x t t o y o u . T h e o n e is m a r k e d E X H I B I T C C 1 7 .1 a n d t h e o th e r o n e i s
m a r k e d C C 1 7 .2 . D o y o u s e e t h a t ?

Page 19 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e a r e g o in g t o s t a r t w it h th e o n e t h a t is
m a r k e d C C 1 7 .1 . I f y o u c o u l d j u s t p l a c e t h a t o n e in fr o n t o f y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s - l e t u s f ir s t a d m i t i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A d m i t t h e m . Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a i n i n g t h e - a g a in it is a s w o r n
a ffi d a v i t M s N o r m a n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

I t i s - i t is w r i t t e n s w o r n a ffi d a v i t

M r C h a ir m a n b u t a t t h e e n d C h a ir w i ll fi n d t h a t i t is j u s t s ig n e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t a … ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o i t i s a c t u a l ly - t h is o n e i t is - it is a n

a ffi d a v i t . Ye s i t is .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e - t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a in in g t h e a ff i d a v i t o f

M r J o n a th a n T h e k i s o w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T C C 1 7 .1 …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

the

lever

arch

fi l e

c o n t a in in g

M r J o n a th a n T h e k i s o ’s s u p p l e m e n t a r y …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A ff id a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is a s t a t e m e n t o r a ffi d a v i t ?
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is - i t is a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ff i d a v i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T C C 1 7 .2 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 20 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M r T h e k is o y o u - is i t c o r r e c t
that you are employed by the SABC?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n w h a t p o s it i o n a r e y o u e m p lo y e d ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

I a m th e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e o f H u m a n

Resources.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y.

W h a t d o y o u d e a l w i t h w i th in

Human Resources?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : M y r o l e i s to p r o v id e s t r a t e g ic d ir e c ti o n a n d
10

le a d e r s h i p b y a l i g n in g t h e H R s t r a t e g y t o t h e c o r p o r a t e p la n o f t h e
S A B C t o e n s u r e t h a t th e o r g a n is a ti o n c a n d e li v e r o n th e m a n d a te .
S e c o n d ly

my

role

e n t a ils

s u s t a in in g

an

e n v ir o n m e n t

th a t

is

c h a r a c te r is e d b y h e a l t h y, c o m p e t e n t s t a ff m e m b e r s i n o r d e r t o e n s u r e
t h a t t h e S A B C b e c o m e s a n e m p lo y e r o f c h o ic e b u t q u i t e c r i t ic a l ly w e
w o r k v e r y c l o s e ly w i th l in e m a n a g e m e n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y c a n
d e li v e r o n t h e o b je c tiv e s w i t h a v i e w t o t h e S A B C a c h ie v i n g t h e
mandate.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d I w o u l d i m a g in e t h a t b e fo r e
y o u d o t h a t y o u y o u r s e lf y o u m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y I a m q u a l i fi e d e n o u g h
20

t o b e a b l e t o t a c k l e t h is j o b ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : I b e l i e v e s o C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Ye s .

Could

you

ju s t

p la c e

your

q u a li fi c a t io n s b e f o r e th e C h a ir p e r s o n p l e a s e ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C h a i r m a n I m a tr i c u la t e d a t M o l e ts a n e H i g h
S c h o o l in S o w e to .

Page 21 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e th a t h e s t a r ts …
(Laughing)
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e - h e s t a r ts t h e w a y I w o u ld s t a r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W o u ld s t a r t , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

In 1992.

I h a v e a B a c h e l o r o f S o c ia l

S c i e n c e s D e g r e e fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f C a p e To w n .

I have a Post

G r a d u a t e D i p l o m a i n M a n a g e m e n t t h e H R s t r e a m fr o m W i ts U n iv e r s it y.
I h a v e a n A d v a n c e d E x e c u t iv e Pr o g r a m fr o m U n is a Sc h o o l o f B u s i n e s s
10

L e a d e r s h i p . I a ls o h a v e a L e a d e r s h i p D e v e l o p m e n t Pr o g r a m w h i c h w a s
c o fa c i li t a t e d b y t h e U n iv e r s it y o f C a p e To w n a n d W i ts U n iv e r s i ty.
I a l s o h a v e a n E x e c u tiv e Fi n a n c i a l M a n a g e m e n t P r o g r a m fr o m
W i ts U n iv e r s it y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Thank you.

B e f o r e y o u jo in e d t h e

SABC where were you employed?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

I w a s e m p l o y e d i n b o t h th e p r i v a t e a n d

p u b lic s e c to r s C i t y o f J o h a n n e s b u r g .
D ir e c t o r ie s .

I h a v e w o r k e d f o r Te lk o m

I h a v e a ls o w o r k e d f o r D e l o i t t e .

I have worked for

Vo d a c o m a n d a t Vo d a c o m I h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o ta k e a s s i g n m e n t s a n d
20

I w o r k e d i n G h a n a a s w e l l a s a n a s s ig n m e n t i n t h e U K …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

And

in

a ll

in s t a n c e s

it

was

an

HR

e n v ir o n m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . S o th e n y o u
h a v e j u s t t o l d u s w h a t y o u r o b li g a ti o n s a r e a s - a s t h e H e a d o f H u m a n

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
R e s o u r c e s . Yo u w e r e a s k e d b y t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s o f - o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n
t o g o t h r o u g h t h e c o n t r a c t s o f t h e p e r s o n s t h a t h a d le f t t h e S A B C a n d
e s p e c i a l ly w h e r e t h e r e w h e r e a g r e e m e n ts o f s e p a r a ti o n b e t w e e n t h o s e
p e o p l e a n d th e S A B C …
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d - a n d y o u a r e j u s t g o in g t o t a k e th e

C h a ir p e r s o n t h r o u g h t h o s e t o s h o w h o w t h e s e p e o p l e l e f t b u t y o u r
assessment

of

all

th e s e

c o n tr a c ts

as

you

were

asked

by

the

in v e s t i g a t o r s o f th e C o m m i s s io n w h a t - w h a t d i d - w h a t w a s r e v e a l e d b y
10

t h e c o n tr a c ts a n d t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e y w e r e - t h e y w e r e e n t e r e d
in t o ? J u s t r o u g h ly w i t h o u t n o w p i n p o in t in g t o s p e c i f ic c a s e s . W e a r e
g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h a t.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

What was revealed as we were going

t h r o u g h t h e c o n tr a c ts w a s t h a t p e o p le d i d n o t w a n t t o l e a v e t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n a n d t h e y - i n m o s t i n s t a n c e s - a n d t h e r e w e r e a g r e e m e n t s
f o r t h e m t o l e a v e t h e o r g a n is a ti o n o n th e b a s is t h a t t h e y w e r e p a id y o u
k n o w i n l ie u o f th e i r c o n tr a c t s . F o r i n s t a n c e s o m e b o d y m ig h t h a v e h a d
t w o m o r e y e a r s t o r u n i n th e ir c o n tr a c t .
T h e y w e r e b a s ic a l ly to l d t o l e a v e t h e o r g a n is a ti o n o n t h e
20

b a s is o f p a y m e n t a m o u n ti n g t o t h e b a l a n c e o f t h e c o n tr a c t .

So our

a s s e s s m e n t is t h a t a l l i n a ll p e o p l e s t il l w a n t e d t o w o r k f o r t h e S A B C
p e o p l e s t il l w a n t e d t o c o n tr i b u te t o t h e S A B C b u t b e c a u s e o f r e a s o n s
w e d o n o t k n o w th e y w e r e e s s e n t ia ll y a s k e d to l e a v e t h e o r g a n is a t i o n
o n t h e b a s is o f p a r t ic u l a r p a y m e n ts .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d th e n a s a n H R - I w o u l d r e g a r d

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
y o u a s a n H R e x p e r t g i v e n t h e y e a r s t h a t y o u - a n d th e p l a c e s t h a t y o u
h a v e b e e n d e a li n g w i th th is .

O r d in a r il y i f a p e r s o n - i f t h e r e is a

d is p u te b e t w e e n th e e m p l o y e r a n d t h e e m p lo y e e I w o u ld i m a g i n e t h a t
w o u ld b e r e s o lv e d b y a d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

And you have come across instances

w h e r e t h e r e w o u l d b e a d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g a n d b e f o r e th e S A B C i s
v in d ic a te d o n w h e t h e r o r n o t i t i s i n th e w r o n g - i t w a s i n th e w r o n g o r i t
w a s c o r r e c t i n w h a t i t w a s d o in g t h e n t h e r e is a s e t tl e m e n t p a r t i n g
10

w a y s . S o m e t i m e s t h a t fo ll o w s e v e n a n o r d e r fr o m t h e C C M A t h a t th a t
w o u ld v i n d ic a te t h e S A B C ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

T h a t i s q u i t e c o r r e c t a n d in - i n s o m e

in s t a n c e s p e o p l e w o u l d h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h a d is c ip li n a r y i n q u i r y a n d
t h e r u li n g o f t h a t i n q u ir y w o u l d b e th a t th e p e r s o n o u g h t t o b e
d is m i s s e d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

B u t i n s t e a d o f t h e d i s m is s a l ta k i n g e ffe c t

t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n p r e f e r r e d to e n t e r i n t o a s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t a n d a n d th e p e r s o n b a s ic a l ly l e a v e s t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a s i f t h e y h a d
20

r e s ig n e d a n d in a d d i ti o n t o t h a t t h e y - y o u k n o w - th e y g e t p a i d a
s e t tl e m e n t f ig u r e - a m o u n t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d y o u m a k e - y o u s a y y o u d o n o t

fi n d c o n c l u s iv e ly t h a t t h e r e w a s p u r g i n g b u t y o u s a y t h e i n d ic a ti o n s
w e r e t h e r e . W h a t is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f p u r g in g e m p l o y e e s ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : M y u n d e r s ta n d in g o f p u r g i n g e m p l o y e e s is -

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
is to b a s ic a l ly g e t t h e m o u t o f th e w a y - y o u k n o w - f o r r e a s o n s t h e y
m a y n o t b e a w a r e o f o r f o r r e a s o n s t h a t a r e k n o w n o n ly b y th e - b y t h e
e m p l o y e r o f b y t h e p e r s o n w h o is a c t u a ll y g e t ti n g r i d o f t h o s e - t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r e m p l o y e e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d I w o u l d li k e to ju s t ta k e y o u a n d
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h s o r r y C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is p u r g in g n o t w h e r e t h e e m p lo y e r o r s o m e b o d y i n a
10

h i g h e r p o s i t io n w a n ts y o u o u t o f t h e c o m p a n y o r d e p a r t m e n t f o r a n
ill e g i t i m a te r e a s o n ? I n o t h e r w o r d s i s th e p o s i ti o n n o t th a t th e r e h a s t o
b e a n i ll e g i ti m a t e r e a s o n . I f I - i f I s a y y o u k n o w I t h i n k y o u r h e a l th is
n o l o n g e r - y o u r h e a lt h d o e s n o t a ll o w y o u t o g iv e u s 1 0 0 p e r c e n t i n
t e r m s o f w h a t y o u a r e c a p a b l e o f d o i n g a n d I w o u ld r a t h e r le t y o u g o
a n d l e t m e g e t s o m e b o d y w h o c a n s t ill g i v e u s 1 0 0 p e r c e n t .
T h a t w o u ld n o t b e p u r g in g i n t h e s e n s e i n w h ic h i t is n o r m a ll y
u n d e r s t o o d . Is i t n o ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

C o r r e c t C h a i r b u t if th e j u s ti fi c a t io n f o r

w a n ti n g t o g e t r id o f s o m e b o d y is t h e f a c t th a t t h e r e is a p r o b l e m w i t h
20

y o u r h e a lt h o f c o u r s e t h e r e a r e m e c h a n i s ms w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n
t h r o u g h w h ic h w e c a n t a k e t h e p e r s o n t o a s c e r t a i n t h e v a l id i ty o f th a t
a s s e r t io n s u r r o u n d in g t h e h e a l t h o f t h e i n d iv i d u a l b u t i f t h e r e i s n o t h i n g
w r o n g w it h t h e in d iv i d u a l a n d th e y g e t t o l d t h a t t h e r e is a p r o b l e m w i th
y o u r h e a l t h a n d a s a r e s u l t o f a p r o b l e m w i t h y o u r h e a lt h - h e a l t h w e
t h i n k th a t y o u m i g h t s e r v e a b e t t e r p u r p o s e a t h o m e .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
I f t h a t is t h e c a s e t h e n t h a t a m o u n ts t o p u r g i n g b e c a u s e i n a
s e n s e y o u h a v e n o t a d v a n c e d j u s ti f ia b le r e a s o n s a s to w h y t h is
in d i v i d u a l h a s t o g e t o u t o f t h e w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u s e e t h e w a y I s e e p u r g i n g a n d I w a n t y o u to
t e ll m e h o w y o u s e e it is th a t t h e r e h a s to b e a n il le g it i m a t e r e a s o n a n d
m a y b e i ll e g i ti m a t e is to o w i d e . A n i ll e g i t i m a t e m o tiv e m a y b e b e c a u s e i f
I a m j u s t w r o n g in u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t p r o c e d u r e m u s t f o l lo w b u t I a m
a c ti n g i n g o o d f a i t h . I h a v e g o t n o th i n g a g a i n s t y o u . I a m j u s t w r o n g i n
u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t i s r e q u ir e d .
I m ig h t h a v e d i ffi c u l ty u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t t o b e p u r g i n g b u t i f

10

I th i n k y o u a r e a tr o u b l e m a k e r b e c a u s e y o u k e e p o n a s k i n g to o m a n y
q u e s t io n s o n t h i n g s w h e r e I th in k y o u s h o u l d n o t b e a s k i n g t o o m a n y
q u e s t io n s .

Yo u m u s t j u s t l e t - a l lo w th i n g s to h a p p e n a n d t h o s e a r e

w r o n g t h i n g s t h a t I w a n t to h a p p e n a n d I t h i n k y o u - I th in k y o u t h i n k
y o u a r e c le v e r.
T h a t - t h a t is s e p a r a t e . I f y o u a r e a t r a d e u n i o n is t a n d y o u
a r e a l w a y s g i v i n g m e p r o b l e m s b e c a u s e y o u in s is t o n t h e r ig h ts o f
w o r k e r s b e in g r e s p e c te d a n d a ll o f t h a t a n d th a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y I
want you out.
20

reason.

I think that would be purging.

I t i s a n i ll e g i ti m a t e

I f I t h in k y o u b e l o n g t o a w r o n g p o l it ic a l p e r s o n w r o n g

a c c o r d i n g to m e a n d I o n ly w a n t in t h a t p o s i ti o n s o m e b o d y w h o b e l o n g s
t o a c e r t a i n p o li ti c a l p a r ty.
T h a t i s f o r m e o n t h e f a c e o f i t p u r g i n g - y o u k n o w. I f I - if
y o u a r e s t a n d in g i n m y w a y b e c a u s e I w a n t t h a t te n d e r to g o t o - t o b e
g iv e n t o s o a n d s o a n d y o u a r e in s i s t i n g t h a t i t w i ll o n ly b e g iv e n t o

Page 26 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
w h o e v e r l e g i ti m a t e l y w in s t h e b i d - th e b id .

T h a t is p u r g i n g f o r m e .

Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i f I t h i n k t h a t i n y o u r p o s i t io n I t h i n k t h e

p e r f o r m a n c e y o u g iv e m e t h e b e s t y o u c a n g iv e m e is a b o u t 6 0 p e r c e n t
but I think I want somebody who can give me 80 percent and I - I
d is c u s s t h a t o p e n ly. I t d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o m e t h a t i t m i g h t b e p u r g i n g .
I j u s t w a n t s o m e b o d y w h o c a n d o b e t te r t h a n y o u a r e d o i n g .

Yo u

understand?
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ar e y o u m o r e o r le s s a g r e e m e n t w i t h th e s e e x a m p l e s
t h a t I a m - I a m g iv i n g ?

I f - i f n o t ju s t i n d i c a t e w h e r e y o u h a v e a

d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d s h a r e w it h m e y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

I am - I am in total

a g r e e m e n t w i th - w i t h t h e e x a m p le s t h e C h a ir i s g i v i n g b u t I a ls o w a n t
t o h i g h li g h t a n d - a n d i m p r e s s t h e fa c t th a t i n m o s t in s ta n c e s i n a s f a r
t h e - y o u k n o w - t h e - th e e m p l o y e e s w e a r e d e a l i n g w i t h a r e
concerned.

T h e ir d e p a r t u r e fr o m t h e o r g a n i s a t io n w a s f o r m o s tl y

ill e g i t i m a te r e a s o n s a n d t h e r e fo r e a m o u n t t o - t o p u r g in g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . T h e n t h a t is - th e n I a m v e r y in t e r e s t e d in t h a t .
Yo u k n o w b u t i f - if t h e r e a s o n s a r e n o t i ll e g i t i m a te I m i g h t n o t b e
in t e r e s te d b u t w h e r e t h e p o i n t is t h e r e a s o n s w e r e i ll e g i ti m a t e t h e n t h e n I a m q u i t e i n te r e s t e d . Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . M a y - m a y I ta k e
you to page 5 of - of EXHIBIT 17.1? I beg your pardon to page 38. I

Page 27 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
beg your pardon.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : P a g e 3 8 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , 3 8 .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : G o t i t C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h i s is o n e o f t h e - a p e r s o n
w h o w a s o n c e e m p l o y e d b y - b y t h e S A B C M r Fe li ti .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D id y o u s a y p a g e 5 ?
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Page 38.

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir.

I

in it i a l ly s a i d fiv e . I m a d e - i t i s p a g e 3 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . C o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d t h a t l e t t e r
in t o t h e r e c o r d s o t h a t w e c a n d e a l w i th th e m a t te r s t h a t t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n h a s r a is e d w it h y o u ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : “ C o n tr a c t o f E m p lo y m e n t b e t w e e n
t h e S A B C a n d D i n g a a n F e li ti . ”
T h a t is th e s u b j e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : N u m b e r o n e :
“ T h e a b o v e m a t t e r a s r e fe r e n c e . ”
Number two:
“ A s y o u a r e a w a r e y o u a r e e m p lo y e d b y t h e S A B C
o n a f ix e d t e r m c o n tr a c t b a s is a n d y o u r f ix e d t e r m
c o n tr a c t o f e m p l o y m e n t w i t h t h e S A B C w ill e x p ir e b y

Page 28 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
a - a fl u x i o n o f t i m e o n 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 . ”
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o r r y.

Before you move.

T h e l e t t e r is

dated?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

T h e le t t e r i s d a t e d 1 9 A p r il 2 0 1 6 .

Sorry

C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o t h is w a s a l m o s t a p e r i o d o f t w o y e a r s

b e f o r e th e e x p ir y o f t h a t c o n tr a c t ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . P l e a s e c o n ti n u e .
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : N u m b e r t h r e e :
“ Yo u a r e h e r e b y a d v is e d t h a t t h e S A B C w i ll n o t b e
r e n e w in g o r e x t e n d i n g y o u r c o n tr a c t - y o u r fix e d
t e r m c o n tr a c t o f e m p l o y m e n t u p o n te r m i n a t io n
thereof on 31 August 2018.”
W h i c h is e x p ir y d a te . N u m b e r f o u r :
“ P l e a s e n o t e th a t th e S A B C h a s i n i ts t e r m s o f i ts
o w n p r e r o g a tiv e d e c i d e d to w a iv e i ts r ig h t t o t h e
p r o v i s i o n o f s e r v ic e s a n d /o r r e n d i ti o n o f w o r k b y
y o u f o r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f y o u r c o n tr a c t p e r i o d .

20

A c c o r d i n g ly w i t h e ff e c t fr o m F r i d a y 2 2 A p r il 2 0 1 6
y o u a r e n o t r e q u ir e d t o r e p o r t f o r d u ty a n d / o r
p r o v i d e s e r v ic e s t o th e S A B C a n d t h e S A B C w i ll b e
u n d e r n o o b li g a t io n to a n d w il l t h e r e f o r e n o t p r o v id e
o r a s s ig n a n y w o r k o r s e r v ic e s to y o u . ”
N u m b e r f iv e :

Page 29 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
“ T h e S A B C w il l i n r e la t io n t o t h e r e m a i n d e r o f y o u r
c o n tr a c t
provided

period
for

pay

in

your

you

the

fi x e d

r e m u n e r a ti o n
term

c o n tr a c t

as
of

e m p l o y m e n t p a y a b l e a s a o n c e o ff l u m p s u m . T h is
in c l u d e s p a y m e n t i n li e u o f a c c r u e d a n n u a l le a v e , i f
a n y. A l l p a y m e n ts w il l b e s u b j e c t to t h e t a x l a w s o f
t h e R e p u b l ic o f S o u th A fr ic a . ”
N u m b e r s ix :
“ T h e S A B C w il l d e d u c t a n d / o r s e t o ff t h e a m o u n t
d u e t o y o u , t h e v a lu e o f a n y o u ts t a n d i n g l o a n s

10

a n d / o r d e b t s t h a t a r e r e p a y a b l e a n d / o r d u e to th e
SABC.”
Seven:
“ Yo u w il l b e r e q u ir e d t o h a n d o v e r a l l S A B C p r o p e r t y
and

assets

back

to

the

SABC

on

or

before

2 2 A p r il 2 0 1 6 a t 1 5 : 0 0 t o t h e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s
Manager

Group

S e r v ic e s .

This

in c l u d e s

your

a c c e s s c a r d , l a p to p c o m p u t e r a n d 3 G c a r d a s w e l l
a s y o u r f o r w a r d in g a d d r e s s a n d m e d ic a l c a r d o r
20

cards.”
N u m b e r e ig h t :
“ D u e t o t h e S A B C h a v i n g o p te d t o d is c h a r g e it s f u l l
p a y m e n t o b li g a ti o n s t o y o u u p fr o n t y o u w il l w i t h
e ffe c t fr o m 1 M a y 2 0 1 6 b e r e s p o n s ib le f o r y o u r o w n
p e n s i o n f u n d a n d m e d i c a l a id a r r a n g e m e n t s . ”

Page 30 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
N u m b e r n in e :
“Please

note

th a t

the

p r o v is io n s

r e l a ti n g

to

c o n fi d e n ti a li ty i n t e r m s o f y o u r f ix e d te r m c o n tr a c t
o f e m p lo y m e n t a r e a n d r e m a i n a p p l ic a b l e .

We

r e q u e s t th a t y o u c o m p l y t h e r e f o r e w h i c h i n c lu d e s
k e e p i n g t h i s l e tt e r a n d t h e t e r m s c o n ta in e d h e r e i n
c o n fi d e n ti a l. ”
Number 10:
“ W e w o u ld l ik e t o ta k e t h is o p p o r tu n it y t o w is h y o u
10

e v e r y t h i n g o f th e b e s t in y o u r f u t u r e e n d e a v o u r s . ”
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o t h e n th is p e r s o n w a s g iv e n fr o m - t h e

le t t e r is w r i t t e n t h e 1 9 t h a n d t h e p e r s o n w a s g iv e n a b o u t t h r e e d a y s t o
le a v e th e o r g a n i s a t io n ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

M s N o r m a n I a m s o r r y.

Is t h e r e a p a r ti c u l a r r e a s o n

w h y y o u d o n o t m e n t io n th e n a m e o f th e p e r s o n ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . N o , n o r e a s o n C h a ir.

M r Fe li ti . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . It is Mr D i n g a a n F e li ti . I d i d m e n ti o n it
in it i a l ly y e s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I d id n o t h e a r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o M r F e li ti t h e n w a s g iv e n th r e e d a y s

fr o m t h e 1 9 t h t o 2 2 A p r i l 2 0 1 6 ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e r e a r e - th e r e is n o r e a s o n e x c e p t
t o s a y t h a t th e S A B C it s e l f h a s d e c i d e d n o t t o c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e

Page 31 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
employment?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Would you regard this - what is contained
in p a r a g r a p h 4 w o u ld s a y t h is w a s a l e g i ti m a t e o r il le g it i m a t e r e a s o n
a d v a n c e d to a n y e m p l o y e e f o r te r m i n a ti n g e m p l o y m e n t ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : I w o u l d s a y i t i s il le g i t i m a te .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d i t w a s - o n e w o u ld s a y i t w a s …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll M s N o r m a n .

N o r e a s o n is - is p r o v i d e d in

p a r a g r a p h 4 o r a n y w h e r e i n t h e le t t e r. Is it n o t ?
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o C h a ir.

N o r e a s o n e x c e p t to s a y I a m

u s i n g m y o w n p r e r o g a t iv e . Ye s . S o t h a t is b a s ic a lly …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e r e is n o r e a s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A d e c is i o n w a s ta k e n b y t h e S A B C t h a t it c o u l d d o

w i t h o u t M r - I a s s u m e it is M r F e li ti …
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : F e l it i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t i t w o u ld p a y h i m i n f u l l f o r t h e r e m a in d e r o f
h is c o n tr a c t w h ic h w a s m o r e t h a n tw o y e a r s .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : It d o e s - t h e l e t te r d o e s n o t s a y w h e t h e r th e S A B C n o
lo n g e r n e e d s a n y b o d y t o d o th e j o b t h a t Mr F e l it i w a s d o i n g .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : I t d o e s n o t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d o e s n o t s a y a n d - a n d o n e w o u l d h a v e u n d e r s to o d
if t h e p o s i ti o n w a s th a t t h e r e is n o l o n g e r a n y w o r k f o r h i m t o - to d o .
Yo u k n o w. L a w y e r s m i g h t a r g u e a b o u t w h e th e r o r n o t in t h a t e v e n t h e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
s h o u l d b e g i v e n th e w h o l e a m o u n t fo r t h e r e s t o f t h e p e r i o d b u t a t le a s t
o n e c o u l d s a y th a t i s t h e r e a s o n …
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h i s l e t te r d o e s n o t s a y a n y th i n g li k e t h a t. T h a t is
your understanding as well?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t - t h a t is m y - t h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . A t t h e t i m e o f t h is l e t te r w e r e y o u in t h is p o s i t io n
a t S A B C a n d th e r e f o r e w o u l d y o u h a v e k n o w n a b o u t t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s
10

s u r r o u n d in g t h i s t e r m - th is l e tt e r ?

I - I ask that question because

s o m e t i m e s H u m a n R e s o u r c e s w o u ld b e c o n s u l te d w h e n p e o p le p e o p l e ’s c o n t r a c t s a r e b e i n g t e r m i n a t e d .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : N o C h a ir. A t t h e t i m e o f th e t e r m in a ti o n o f
M r D in g a a n F e l i ti I w a s n o t w i th in t h e S A B C .

Th is h a p p e n e d i n 2 0 1 6

a n d I j o i n e d t h e S A B C in 2 0 1 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A lr i g h t , b u t b e i n g i n th e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s
D e p a r t m e n t h a v e y o u h a d a c h a n c e t o lo o k a t t h e p e r s o n n e l fi le r e l a ti n g
t o Mr F e l i ti if i t i s s ti ll b e i n g k e p t a n d s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e is a n y th i n g
t h a t g iv e s a g o o d - w o u ld g i v e u s a n u n d e r s t a n d in g a s t o w h y th e S A B C
20

t o o k t h i s d e c is io n .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

N o , n o C h a ir.

T h e - t h e o n ly ti m e I c a m e

in t o c o n t a c t w it h t h i s d o c u m e n t a t i o n w a s w h e n w e w e r e p r e p a r in g t h e
d o c u m e n ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e C o m m i s s i o n ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 33 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o y o u r k n o w l e d g e is c o n fi n e d t o w h a t is i n

t h e le t t e r …
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is q u i te c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n - t h e n a f t e r y o u
d e a lt w i th e a c h a n d e v e r y e m p lo y e e t h a t le f t d u r i n g t h a t p e r io d a n d
w h e r e t h e y w e r e s e t - o h s o r r y. M a y b e - l e t u s fi n is h M r F e li ti a n d y o u
10

w i ll s e e t h a t a t p a g e 4 9 C h a ir i f I m a y - n o t 4 9 . I f I m a y j u s t d ir e c t y o u
to see page 42.

T h a t - t h a t p a y m e n t is p a y m e n t t h a t r e l a t e s t o

M r Fe li ti . A m I r i g h t ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s i t r e l a t e t o M r F e li ti ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e fi r s t - i f - i f C h a i r h a s a l o o k a t
page 41 …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C h a ir w i ll s e e t h a t - t h a t is th e S A R S

in c o m e t a x s c h e d u le …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e n t h e n e x t p a g e - a l t h o u g h th e

n a m e is n o t w r it t e n b u t i t c o n t in u e s a s t h e s e c o n d p a g e b u t - b u t w e
c a n - w e c a n e a s i ly v e r i fy t h a t b y lo o k i n g a t th e - th e t a b l e t h a t y o u
p r e p a r e d i n y o u r s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a t e m e n t . T h e n w e c a n j u s t v e r i fy t h e
amount.

S o i f y o u c o u l d j u s t q u ic k ly - j u s t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f

Page 34 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
a n s w e r i n g t h a t q u e s t io n if y o u c o u l d j u s t q u i c k l y j u s t t u r n t o y o u r
s u p p l e m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t - w h ic h is i n t h e n e x t f il e n e x t t o - i f y o u c o u l d
ju s t t u r n t o p a g e 3 3 6 o f th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 3-6-6?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

3-3-6

C h a ir. D o u b l e th r e e - 3 - 3 - 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: Double three six?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D o u b l e th r e e s ix C h a ir, y e s . Yo u w i ll f in d
that payment …
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I n t h e o n e , t w o , t h r e e , f o u r, f iv e , s ix ,

s e v e n - i n t h e e i g h t h c o l u m n C h a ir a t 3 - 3 - 6 .

T h e n a m e o f Mr F e l i ti

a p p e a r s th e r e a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

General

Manager

Human

Resources

a p p e a r s . T h e d a t e 2 2 A p r il a n d th e a m o u n t p a id t o h i m a p p e a r s th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t o r e a d th a t a m o u n t M s … ?
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C o u l d y o u r e a d t h a t?

How - how

m u c h w a s t h a t?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

T h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a id to Mr F e l i ti is

R4 697 000 - sorry - 4 697 059,96.

Page 35 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n m a y b e w e t a k e

another case …
CHAIRPERSON: So that - that would have been somebody who earned
m o r e th a n a m i ll io n R a n d a y e a r b e c a u s e w e k n o w th a t i t i s s u p p o s e d t o
represent over two years?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u a n d th e n m a y b e y o u c o u l d
10

t a k e a n o th e r e x a m p le w h i c h y o u c o u l d j u s t g o t o p a g e 2 4 7 C h a ir o f
Bundle/EXHIBIT CC - sorry - 17.1.
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: At page 2-4-7.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n - in r e s p e c t o f p e o p l e s u c h a s M r F e l i ti i t w i ll b e

i m p o r t a n t i n d u e c o u r s e t o h a v e e v i d e n c e t h a t r e l a t e s to w h e th e r
s o m e b o d y e ls e w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly e m p l o y e d t o …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : R e p la c e h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o t h e s a m e w o r k th a t h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n d o i n g f o r
t h e r e m a in d e r o f t h a t p e r i o d .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d o b v i o u s l y a ls o w h a t th e y w e r e p a i d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m p a r e d t o w h a t Mr F e l it i w a s p a i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W a s p a id , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: So that - that becomes quite important …

Page 36 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e i f s o m e b o d y e l s e w a s a p p o i n te d t o d o t h a t

jo b t h e n it m e a n s t h a t f o r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e p e r i o d w h e n Mr F e l i ti
s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n t h e r e e ff e c ti v e ly t h e in s t i tu t io n w a s p a y in g tw o
p e o p l e fo r t h e s a m e j o b .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: A job that should be done by one person.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n e p e r s o n . Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k
you.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Then the next person

w h o a l s o p a r t e d w a y s w i th t h e - w i t h th e S A B C t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e
2 4 7 b u t w h a t y o u h a v e i n - in r e l a t i o n t o th is p e r s o n - h i s n a m e i s
C h r is t ia n O liv i e r - i s a m u t u a l s e p a r a t io n a g r e e m e n t b u t f o r t h e
purposes

of

your

evidence

what

you

w is h

to

h ig h l i g h t

to

th e

C h a ir p e r s o n is th e a m o u n t a n d t h e p e r i o d f o r w h ic h h e w a s p a i d . A m I
correct?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th a t w o u ld a p p e a r a t p a g e 2 4 9 .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll d o y o u n o t w a n t t o t e l l u s fir s t te ll w h o w e a r e

t a lk in g a b o u t?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I d i d C h a ir. I s a id M r O l iv ie r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Why do I always not hear you when you mention
names?
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Or maybe I speak to fast.

Page 37 of 173

It i s

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M r C h r is ti a n O l iv i e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t Mr C O liv e r ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O l iv ie r ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O li v i e r, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e r e is a s e p a r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t th a t
a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e s 2 5 0 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

And that agreement was not signed by

M r O l iv i e r a s y o u c a n s e e b u t it w a s s i g n e d b y t h e S A B C . A t - i f y o u
lo o k a t - m a y b e a t p a g e 2 5 4 t h e c o p y t h a t y o u fu r n is h e d t o t h e
C o m m i s s i o n is n o t s ig n e d b y M r O l iv ie r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o r r y I a m a t 2 4 8 , s h o u ld I b e m o v in g to

…[intervenes].
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C h a ir c o u ld y o u p l e a s e m o v e t o p a g e

2 5 0 , w e ’ ll g o b a c k t o 2 4 8 I j u s t w a n t t o id e n t i fy t h e a g r e e m e n t f ir s t .
O k a y a t 2 5 0 th is is c a ll e d a m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t , a r e y o u w i th
me?
20

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , y e s .
Yo u m u s t p le a s e – p l e a s e d o n ’ t n o d j u s t

say yes.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y.
Thank you and if you look at page 254

o f t h a t , y o u w il l s e e t h a t t h e r e i s n o s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r in g o n b e h a l f o f

Page 38 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M r C h r is ti a n O l iv i e r.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .
O k a y a n d d i d y o u e x tr a c t t h is in f o r m a t io n

fr o m y o u r h u m a n r e s o u r c e s fi le s ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
W e r e y o u a b l e t o f in d a n y o t h e r o n e t h a t

he had signed?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

N o n o t … [ i n te r v e n e s ].

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

O n ly w h a t y o u h a d fu r n is h e d to th e

Commission?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .
A n d t h e n if y o u t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e a t

p a g e 2 5 5 y o u w il l s e e th a t t h e r e is a s ig n a t u r e t h e r e o n b e h a l f o f t h e
S A B C a n d th a t ’s d a t e d 2 5 O c to b e r 2 0 1 6 .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
Ye s b u t t h e r e is a l s o a n o t h e r d o c u m e n t

w h ic h I w o u l d lik e y o u t o ju s t i d e n t i fy w h e r e M r O li v i e r h a s s i g n e d a n d
s a i d s o m e t h i n g , t h a t ’s C h a ir a p p e a r s a t p a g e 2 4 7 .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d th e n o t e I a t p a g e 2 4 8 ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s C h a ir, a n d t h e n a t 2 4 7 , C h a i r m a y b e

ju s t – s o a s to s t a te t h e r e a s o n b e c a u s e t h e C h a ir h a d q u e s ti o n s a b o u t
the reasons, if you go to page 247 could you just read out what the
r e a s o n s a r e t h a t a r e a d v a n c e d fo r s e p a r a ti n g fr o m t h is e m p lo y m e n t
a g r e e m e n t?
M R J O N ATH A N T H E K I S O :

O k a y t h e l e t t e r is d a te d th e 2 5 t h O c t o b e r

Page 39 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
2 0 1 6 a d d r e s s e d to M r C O l iv i e r w h o w a s a G e n e r a l M a n a g e r F in a n c e
a n d O p e r a t io n s f o r t h e S A B C a n d t h e s u b j e c t i s , S A B C / M r O li v i e r,
s e p a r a t io n ,
“ T h e a b o v e m a t t e r a n d t h e m e e ti n g s h e ld o n 2 4 t h a n d 2 5 t h
October 2016 have reference.

D u r in g t h e a b o v e m e n t io n e d

m e e ti n g s m a n a g e m e n t m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r t h a t t h e r e w a s a
b r e a k d o w n i n t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e S A B C a n d y o u r s e l f
a n d t h a t t h e S A B C c o n te m p l a te d s e v e r i n g t h e r e l a t i o n s h ip
going forward.
10

Yo u w e r e a ls o in f o r m e d t h a t m a n a g e m e n t

w o u ld p r e p a r e a s e p a r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t a n d w o u l d y o u p r o v i d e
y o u w i th a b r e a k d o w n o f t h e a m o u n t b e i n g o ff e r e d . A t t a c h e d
a r e t h e f o l lo w in g d o c u m e n ts , 1 ) s e p a r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t a n d 2 )
d o c u m e n t r e f l e c ti n g o n th e b r e a k d o w n o f t h e s e p a r a t io n
a m o u n t o ff e r e d .

P l e a s e b e i n f o r m e d t h a t y o u r l a s t d a y in

s e r v ic e o f t h e S A B C w il l b e t h e 3 1 s t o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 6 . Yo u w il l
a ls o n o t b e r e q u i r e d t o r e n d e r a n y f u r t h e r s e r v ic e s w it h in
i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t .

F u r t h e r m o r e , i t s h o u l d b e n o te d t h a t t h e

S A B C w i ll e ff e c t p a y m e n t o f t h e s a i d s e p a r a t io n a m o u n t i n t o
y o u r b a n k in g a c c o u n t w i th in 7 d a y s fr o m h a v i n g r e c e iv e d t h e
20

r e l e v a n t t a x d ir e c t iv e . T h e S A B C h e r e w i t h w a n t s t o th a n k y o u
f o r y o u r c o n tr ib u ti o n s m a d e d u r i n g y o u r t e n u r e w it h t h e S A B C
a n d w e w i s h y o u e v e r y t h i n g o f th e b e s t f o r t h e f u t u r e ” ,
A n d th is w a s s i g n e d b y M o s h o l i P h a g a w h o w a s t h e G r o u p
E x e c u t iv e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s a c t in g a t t h e t i m e a n d t h e n i t g o e s o n ,
“ C h r i s t i a n O l iv ie r h e r e b y a c k n o w l e d g e r e c e i p t o f t h e le t t e r

Page 40 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
a n d h a v e n o t e d t h e c o n t e n t t h e r e o f a n d h e s i g n e d it a n d
t h e r e ’s a ls o n o t e s t h a t s a y I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h t h i s a n d r e s e r v e
m y r i g h ts ” ,
A n d th e l e t te r is d a te d th e 2 5 t h o r i s s i g n e d o n t h e 2 5 t h O c t o b e r
2016.
CHAIRPERSON:

M is s N o r m a n ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

I t w o n ’ t e v e r y l e t te r t h a t h e w o u l d n e e d t o r e a d i n

f u ll h e c o u l d ju s t g iv e t h e g i s t s u c h a s t h is o n e to s a y, a c c o r d i n g to t h e
10

S A B C t h e r e a s o n w a s a b r e a k d o w n o f t r u s t o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d t h is
t h e a m o u n t t h e y g a v e o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t r e a l ly
is i m p o r t a n t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
you.

N o , t h a n k y o u C h a ir w e ’l l d o t h a t, t h a n k

A n d t h e n a t p a g e 2 4 9 y o u d r e w o u r a t t e n t io n t o t h e p e r i o d fo r

w h ic h M r O li v i e r w a s p a i d a n d t h e r e ’s v a r io u s c o l u m n s c o u ld y o u j u s t
t a lk t o t h o s e c o lu m n s t h a t a r e t h e r e a n d t h e p e r i o d f o r w h i c h h e w a s
paid?
M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O :

Okay column one shows the current

a n n u a l T G R P a n d T G R P s ta n d s f o r to t a l g u a r a n te e d r e m u n e r a ti o n
20

package.

Th e g r a n d t o t a l th e r e i s R 2 1 7 2 1 2 7 . 3 4 s o th a t w a s t h e

a n n u a l a m o u n t.

Th e c u r r e n t m o n t h l y T G R P is R 1 8 1 0 1 0 . 6 1 a n d t h e

next column shows…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m

sorry

you

s a id

TGRP

stands

for

t o t a l … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :

To t a l g u a r a n t e e d r e m u n e r a t io n p a c k a g e .

Page 41 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y a n d d o e s t h a t a m o u n t to y o u r a n n u a l

salary?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t a m o u n ts to … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

N o r m a lly i t d o e s C h a ir it ’s t h e t o ta l c o s t o f

e m p l o y m e n t , s o m e ti m e s I c a ll it t o ta l c o s t o f e m p lo y m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O :

T h e n e x t c o l u m n s h o w s 2 4 m o n t h s a n d th e

total amount there is R4 344 254.68.

T h e n e x t c o l u m n is 3 6 m o n t h s

s h o w s 3 6 m o n t h s in o th e r w o r d s t h e r e m u n e r a t io n fo r 3 6 m o n t h s w o u ld
10

h a v e b e e n R 6 5 1 6 3 8 2 . 0 2 a n d f o r 4 8 m o n th th e t o t a l a m o u n t is R 6 5 1
6 3 8 2 0 0 0 . 0 2 s o r r y l e t m e t a k e t h a t a g a i n , R 6 5 1 6 3 8 2 . 0 2 , th e s e c o n d
la s t c o l u m n s h o w s 6 0 m o n t h s w h ic h is R 1 0 8 6 0 6 3 6 . 7 0 a n d th e l a s t
c o l u m n s h o w s t h e r e m a i n d e r o f c o n tr a c t w h ic h i s 6 2 m o n t h s t h e t o t a l
t h e r e i s R 11 4 7 5 8 5 2 .3 9 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o w o u l d t h a t m e a n th a t r e m a i n i n g

p e r i o d , t h a t ’s a p e r io d o f a b o u t fiv e 5 y e a r s , a m I r i g h t ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
years.

Let me explain, where this comes from.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Th e r e m a i n i n g p e r i o d is a p e r io d o f fi v e

M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O :

Ye s .
Th e e m p l o y e e a t t h e ti m e o f th e

s e t tl e m e n t w a s 5 4 y e a r s a n d 1 0 m o n t h s o l d , s o t h e y w e r e l e f t w it h t w o
m o n th s b e f o r e t h e y c o u ld r e a c h 5 5 y e a r s a n d a t t h e S A B C y o u q u a li fy
f o r e a r ly r e ti r e m e n t fr o m 5 5 y e a r s a n d s o t h is t o ta l a m o u n t is b a s e d o n
6 2 m o n t h s w h ic h is a c o n tr a c t p e r i o d o f f iv e y e a r s , s o h e w a s
e ffe c tiv e l y p a i d f o r f iv e y e a r s p l u s tw o m o n t h s w h ic h is 6 2 m o n t h s .

Page 42 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w l o n g w a s h i s c o n t r a c t – h e w a s o n a f ix e d - te r m

c o n tr a c t?
M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O :

H e w a s o n a p e r m a n e n t e m p l o y e e a t th e

ti m e o f th e s e tt l e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t a fix e d - t e r m c o n tr a c t ?

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t a f ix e d - t e r m c o n tr a c t C h a ir.

O k a y a n d y o u s a y h e w a s tw o m o n t h s a w a y fr o m

q u a li fy in g fo r r e t ir e m e n t , e a r ly r e ti r e m e n t ?
M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O :
10

H e w a s t w o m o n th s a w a y fr o m q u a l i fy i n g

f o r e a r ly r e tir e m e n t s o h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n 5 4 y e a r s o f a g e p l u s t e n
m o n th s , s o h e w a s le f t w i t h t w o m o n t h s b e f o r e r e a c h i n g a g e 5 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R J O N ATH A N T H E K I S O :

S o th e n , i n t e r m s o f r e tir e m e n t , u l ti m a t e

r e tir e m e n t h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n – h e w o u ld h a v e r e a c h e d r e ti r e m e n t a g e
a t a g e 6 0 b e c a u s e t h e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e c o m p u ls o r y r e t ir e m e n t a g e is 6 0 .

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O :
20

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o e x e c u t iv e s f o r t h e S A B C c a n – m u s t

r e tir e a t a g e 6 0 th e r e s t o f t h e e m p l o y e e s r e ti r e a t a g e 6 3 . S o i n s t e a d
o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n w a i ti n g f o r M r O li v i e r t o s e r v e o u t t h e f iv e y e a r t e r m
le a d i n g u p to h i s u l ti m a t e r e tir e m e n t a t a g e 6 0 , t h e o r g a n is a ti o n
d e c i d e d t o le t h i m g o a t a g e 5 4 a n d t e n m o n th s a n d t h e n p a id h i m t h e
b a l a n c e o f t h e c o n tr a c t w h ic h w a s 6 2 m o n t h s . S o r r y t h e b a l a n c e o f th e
c o n tr a c t w h i c h h a d b e e n 6 2 m o n th s .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t c o n f u s e d m e e a r l i e r o n , i t ’s

n o t t h e b a la n c e o f t h e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t a fix e d - t e r m
c o n ta c t e m p lo y e e , h e w a s j u s t o n a n in d e fi n i t e e m p l o y m e n t c o n tr a c t .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

But once he reached age 60 he would have been

o b li g e d t o r e t ir e .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o b a s i c a ll y w h a t t h e y d e c i d e d is , w e w il l p a y

whatever you would have earned between now and age 60 so that you
10

can go.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s o k a y.

M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, I ’ m a d v is e d t h a t it ’s ti m e

for the short adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s m a y b e b e f o r e w e d o t h a t, is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t

y o u d o n ’ t k n o w th e c i r c u ms t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g th e b r e a k - d o w n o f t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I t is t h e p o s it i o n ?

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t is th e p o s i ti o n C h a ir.

Ye s .

B e c a u s e M i s s N o r m a n t h i s w il l b e i m p o r t a n t , i t

c o u l d b e a w a s t e o f t a x p a y e r ’s m o n e y b u t th a t m i g h t h a v e n o t h i n g to
d o w i t h o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e b u t i t c o u ld b e th a t i t i s li n k e d s o i t w ill
b e i m p o r t a n t t o s e e w h e t h e r w e a r e a b le t o ti e i t t o o u r t e r m s o f
r e fe r e n c e .

Page 44 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d th e r e i s a n i n te r e s t i n fu t u r e b e c a u s e I t h i n k

o r d i n a r i ly i f t h e r e ’s a b r e a k d o w n o f a n e m p l o y m e n t r e l a t i o n s h ip y o u a r e
n o t o b l i g e d , I t h i n k , to p a y f o r th e w h o l e p e r i o d t h a t t h e e m p lo y e r w o u l d
h a v e p a i d y o u , y o u a r e s i m p ly o b li g e d to p a y – t o g iv e t h e m n o t ic e .
M a y b e y o u m i g h t o r y o u m i g h t n o t, d e p e n d i n g o n a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s t o
p a y w h a t m a y b e c a ll e d s e v e r a n c e p a y b u t i t m ig h t b e t h a t y o u ’r e n o t
e v e n s u p p o s e d to p a y s e v e r a n c e p a y b e c a u s e it ’s n o t a r e tr e n c h m e n t ,
y o u k n o w s o t h e r e f o r e o n e m i g h t lo o k a t it fr o m t h e p o i n t o f v ie w o f
10

w h a t i s i t th a t t h e S A B C w a s o b l ig e d t o p a y a n d w h a t d i d i t p a y a n d h o w
m u c h is t h a t d i ffe r e n c e a n d w h a t r e a s o n s a r e r e a ll y g iv e n , w h a t w a s t h e
m o t iv e f o r p a y i n g s o m u c h m o n e y w h e n t h e r e w a s j u s t a b r e a k d o w n i n
t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir t h a n k y o u .

O k a y a lr i g h t w e ’ll t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e

w i ll r e s u m e a t t w e n ty f iv e t o tw e lv e . W e a d jo u r n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
REGISTRAR:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

A l l r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
20

INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: We may proceed.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . Th a n k y o u .
T h e o t h e r e x a m p l e t h a t y o u w o u ld l ik e t o b r i n g to th e a t t e n t io n o f th e
C h a ir Mr T h e k is o i s t h a t – t h a t t h e o n e th a t r e l a t e s t o M r M a s in g a a m I
c o r r e c t ? I t is t h e n e x t o n e w e w o u l d li k e t o d e a l w i t h a n d th a t y o u w il l

Page 45 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
fi n d …
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

M r C h a ir m a n y o u w i ll f in d t h a t a t p a g e

122.
CHAIRPERSON: 122?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 1 2 2 M r C h a ir m a n Ye s . A t l e a s t I d i d h e a r
y o u m e n t io n t h e n a m e t h is t i m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr S M Masinga.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a s i n g a . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e r e a s o n g i v e n f o r th e t e r m i n a t io n
r o u g h l y is t h a t M r M a s i n g a h a d e n g a g e d in o t h e r b u s i n e s s i n t e r e s ts a n d
t h e r e f o r e a c o n f li c t – s o r r y a r e y o u l o s t? H a v e y o u fo u n d i t?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : N o I a m fi n e , I a m fi n e .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y o u s e e m t o b e l o o k i n g f o r s o m e t h in g
s o r r y. A r e y o u a t p a g e 1 2 2 Mr T h e k is o ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : I a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .

20

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

W h a t I a m s a y i n g is t o s u m m a r is e t h e

r e a s o n – c o u ld y o u j u s t s u m m a r is e th e r e a s o n w it h o u t r e a d i n g it i n to
t h e r e c o r d . T h e r e a s o n f o r th e t e r m i n a ti o n o f t h e f ix e d t e r m e x e c u tiv e
s e r v ic e a g r e e m e n t?
M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 46 of 173

Th e r e a s o n s f o r

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
t e r m in a ti o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t o f e m p lo y m e n t b y S A B C o n M r M a s in g a w a s
t h a t h e w a s a ll e g e d ly g u il ty o f a n u m b e r o f m is c o n d u c t s . B u t b e f o r e t h e
m a t t e r c o u l d b e v e n t il a t e d

in

a

proper

d is c i p l in a r y e n q u ir y

the

o r g a n i s a t io n d e c i d e d t o t e r m i n a t e t h e f ix e d t e r m c o n t r a c t a n d e n t e r e d
in t o a s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t w i t h h i m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d i f y o u l o o k a t p a g e 1 3 3 . I b e g
y o u r p a r d o n , n o , n o , n o I a m s o r r y I t u r n e d to t h e w r o n g p a g e . I w a n t e d
to look at page 130.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : 1 3 0 .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th is i s w h e r e t h e a g r e e m e n t is s i g n e d b y
b o t h p a r t ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s h i s p o s i ti o n p l e a s e ? Mr M a s i n g a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
C h a ir.

M r M a s i n g a h e w a s I w il l g iv e y o u n o w

I t is – i t w i ll b e i n t h e l is t .

I w i ll g iv e y o u n o w.

I beg your

p a r d o n C h a ir. H e w a s t h e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e Te c h n o l o g y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. D id y o u s a y w e m u s t g o t o p a g e 1 3 3 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. I w a n t e d to j u s t f o r th e w i tn e s s
t o i d e n t i fy – n o n o t t o i d e n t i fy t h e s i g n a t u r e s b u t t o s e e t h a t t h is w a s
s ig n e d o n th e 2 1 s t A p r il 2 0 1 6 . A r e y o u th e r e Mr T h e k is o ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a r e y o u o n a n o th e r b u n d l e b e c a u s e o n t h i s o n e

1 3 3 is th e s e c o n d p a g e o f a l e t te r a d d r e s s e d t o M r M a t l a l a n o t M r
Masinga.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : J a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o C h a ir. P a g e 1 3 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: 130?

Page 47 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 1 3 0 y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I th o u g h t t w o ti m e s y o u s a i d – y o u a g r e e d

when I said 133.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir n o I a m s u r e I d i d
n o t p a y a t t e n t io n to t h e p a g e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay 130.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s o r p a g e 1 3 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s .

S o t h a t is 2 1 A p r il 2 0 1 6 . A r e y o u

there?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : I a m t h e r e C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n a c c o r d i n g to t h e
s c h e d u l e th a t y o u h a v e p r e p a r e d w h ic h s h o u l d a p p e a r a t p a g e – i n th e
n e x t b u n d le C C – Ex h ib i t 2 7 .2 .

It s h o w s t h a t t h is w a s – t h is

r e l a ti o n s h i p t e r m i n a t e d o n 2 1 A p r i l 2 0 1 6 a n d t h a t a n a m o u n t o f m o n e y
w a s p a i d t o h i m j u s t o v e r R 4 m i lli o n p a id t o h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is th e a m o u n t r e fl e c t e d ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th e a m o u n t is r e f le c t e d C h a ir – if C h a ir

g o e s t o t h e b u n d l e X C C 1 7 . 2 a t p a g e 3 3 7 . A n d i f C h a ir c o u ld c o u n t j u s t
20

8…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I c a n s e e M a s in g a S M .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 8 l in e s – th a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a h e w a s p a i d R 4 5 3 9 7 4 5 . 9 9 – R 4 .5 e ff e c ti v e R 4 . 5
m il li o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : R 4 . 5 m il li o n y e s th a n k y o u .

Page 48 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . T h e o n e a m o u n t t h a t y o u
d i d n o t m e n ti o n w h i c h w a s a h u g e – th a t h u g e a m o u n t o r is t h a t o n e
of…
Ye s t h a n k y o u . Th e o n e a m o u n t th a t y o u d i d n o t m e n ti o n w h ic h w a s a
h u g e – t h a t h u g e a m o u n t o r is t h a t o n e o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e o n a fi x e d te r m c o n tr a c t ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s h e w a s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w m u c h ti m e w a s l e ft , d o w e k n o w ?
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : L e t m e c h e c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e a l l o f th o s e t h i n g s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e r e le v a n t t o g i v e …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Context.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e id e a is t o s a y t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g i ll e g i t i m a te

about this.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A r e y o u lo o k in g fo r i n f o r m a t i o n ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

A lr i g h t o k a y.

Yo u ju s t i n d ic a te w h a t –

what you looking for?
M R J O N AT H A N T H E K I S O : S o r r y I a m l o o k in g – I a m tr y i n g to fi n d t h e
– a n i n d ic a ti o n a s t o th e c o n tr a c t t e r m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i t w i ll b e – j u s t a m i n u t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A l th o u g h …

Page 49 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h e – h o w m u c h t i m e w a s l e f t i n h is fi x e d te r m

c o n tr a c t i f h is c o n tr a c t o f e m p l o y m e n t w a s a fix e d te r m . O h I th i n k th e
h e a d i n g a t p a g e 1 2 2 i n d ic a te s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

It a p p e a r s – m a y I ta k e C h a ir t o p a g e

128?
CHAIRPERSON: Aha.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

1 2 8 s h o w s t h a t h i s te r m o f – i t s a y s

M a s i n g a ’s f ix e d t e r m c o n t r a c t w i th t h e S A B C w h ic h b e c a m e e ff e c t iv e
fr o m 1 5 M a y 2 0 1 5 a n d w a s to c o n ti n u e u n t i l 3 1 M a y 2 0 1 8 .
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Is h e r e b y t e r m i n a t e d w i t h i m m e d ia t e

e ffe c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I c a n s e e t h a t is 3 . 6 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is 3 .5 C h a ir.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h is w a s – th e t e r m i n a t io n w a s t h e l e t te r o f

t e r m in a t e d w a s d a t e d 2 4 J u n e 2 0 1 5 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e l e t te r o f t e r m i n a t io n …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja at page 122.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t 1 2 2 y e s C h a ir. Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So – so he worked one m onth?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o C h a ir it is y e a r s . It is fr o m – t h i s is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a it s a y s 3 . 6 a t 1 2 8 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 50 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON:

Says:

M a s i n g a ’s f ix e d t e r m c o n t r a c t w i t h t h e S A B C

w h ic h b e c a m e e ff e c ti v e fr o m 1 5 M a y 2 0 1 5 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s t o c o n t in u e u n ti l 3 1 M a y 2 0 1 8 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : M a y 2 0 1 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

[ I n d is ti n c t ] te r m in a te d w i t h e ff e c t fr o m th e e ffe c t iv e

d a t e o f t h is a g r e e m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: That means he worked …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Worked for one month.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r o n e m o n th o n e w e e k o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n h is c o n t r a c t w a s t e r m i n a t e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n h e w a s p a i d f o r t h e f u ll t e r m i t
appears looking at the amount.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a t h a t m a y b e s o b u t d o w e h a v e s o m e t h i n g th a t

d o e s s a y w h e t h e r h e w a s p a i d t h a t a m o u n t r e p r e s e n te d th e b a l a n c e o f
h is c o n tr a c t ?
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e d o h a v e t h e s c h e d u l e C h a ir w h ic h h a s
been prepared.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

I n r e l a ti o n t o t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t H u m a n

Resources have.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t.

Page 51 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I f I – th a t a m o u n t C h a ir w h ic h y o u r e a d

e a r l ie r t h e R 4 .5 m i ll io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t t h e n C h a ir i f y o u lo o k a t t h e

s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t i t s e l f.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

I t g i v e s a d i ff e r e n t a m o u n t .

It may very

w e ll b e t h a t t h e r e is a r e a s o n b u t i t a l m o s t d o u b l e s t h a t a m o u n t .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I f C h a ir – i f I m a y d ir e c t y o u C h a ir t o p a g e
127?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Mr T h e k is o w o u l d y o u r e a d
p a r a g r a p h 2 . 2 . 7 o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t a m o u n t ? H o w m u c h – w h a t d i d t h e y
s a y w a s g o in g to b e t h e p a y m e n t th e r e ?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : O k a y t h a n k s C h a ir.

20

“ 2 .2 . 7 S e tt l e m e n t a m o u n t m e a n s t h e n e t t o ta l s u m o f
R2 678 409.80

w h ic h is R 2 6 7 8 4 1 9 . 8 0 f r e e o f a n y

d e d u c ti o n s , s t a t u t o r y o r o th e r w i s e p a y a b l e b y t h e
S A B C t o M a s i n g a in f u l l a n d f in a l s e tt l e m e n t o f a ll
t h e le g a l p r o c e e d i n g s a n d a t t e n d a n t d is p u t e s . ”
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t s u g g e s ts th a t t h a t a m o u n t o f R 2 . 6 m il li o n m a y

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
n o t n e c e s s a r i ly b e ju s t th e r e m u n e r a ti o n h e w o u l d h a v e p a id fo r t h e
balance of the term.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e th a t i t is m e a n t to s e t tl e w h a t e v e r d is p u te s
t h e r e w e r e b e t w e e n t h e p a r ti e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e t w e e n th e m e m b e r s y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Because of what it says there.

B u t t h a t i s d i ff e r e n t

fr o m t h e R 4 .5 m i ll io n o r s o t h a t a p p e a r s in t h e o t h e r b u n d le a n d I d o
n o t k n o w w h e t h e r e v e n if y o u d e d u c t t a x .
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w o u l d c o m e t o t h a t a m o u n t . I t s e e ms …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n f a c t it is a l m o s t d o u b l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is a l m o s t d o u b le t h a t a m o u n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. B u t C h a i r th e w i t n e s s is g o i n g
t o c o m e b a c k w i t h t h e m a t t e r s th a t t h e C h a ir h a d r a is e d . T h e w i tn e s s
is g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k a n d d o a p r o p e r t a b l e o f t h e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u
h a v e r a is e d .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A b o u t t h e i n c u m b e n c y a n d a ll t h a t . Th e n
t h a t w a y w e d o n o t h a v e t o w a s t e ti m e g o i n g t h r o u g h e a c h a n d e v e r y
c o n tr a c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : J a .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s I t h i n k it w il l – i t w il l fa c i li t a t e t h a t

s i tu a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t p a r t – w e ll w i t h a ll t h e te r m in a ti o n s th a t w e

a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t i t w i ll b e i m p o r ta n t a s I s a i d e a r li e r to s h o w t h a t t h e r e
is a n i ll e g i ti m a t e r e a s o n . T h e o n e t h a t w e s t a r t e d w i t h o n th e f a c e o f i t .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : H m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d o e s a p p e a r ill e g i t i m a t e b u t w e m i g h t n e e d t o g e t –
m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y t o g e t m o r e i n fo r m a ti o n .
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

As

to

why

was

the

c o n tr a c t

te r m in a te d

in

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e t h e p e r s o n w a s s ti ll a v a i l a b l e t o c o n t in u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w a s t h e r e n o n e e d f o r t h e d u t ie s t h a t h e w o u l d

h a v e p e r f o r m e d to b e p e r fo r m e d b y a n y b o d y o r d i d s o m e b o d y b e – w a s
somebody brought in.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t i s m o r e i m p o r t a n t a b o u t th a t o n e is th a t

t h e r e i s n o t e v e n a n a l le g a ti o n o f a n y p r o b l e m s i n t h e r e la t io n s h ip .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e t w e e n t h a t o n e a n d th e – t h e e m p l o y e r. T h e o t h e r
– t h e o t h e r t w o t h a t w e h a v e d e a l t w it h t h e o n e t h e r e is a n a ll e g a t io n o f
a b r e a k - d o w n i n t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p . A n d i f in d e e d t h a t w a s f a c tu a lly
c o r r e c t t h a t m i g h t g i v e p r o b l e ms t o s h o w i n g t h a t t h e m o n e y w a s p a id
ill e g i t i m a te ly b u t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e p e r s o n h a d o n ly w o r k e d f o r o n e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
m o n th a n d a fe w d a y s m a k e s t h a t t e r m in a ti o n q u i t e q u e s ti o n a b l e .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w w h e th e r s o m e b o d y w o r k i n g a m o n t h i s

e n o u g h fo r y o u t o c o n c l u d e t h a t th e r e is a b r e a k - d o w n i n t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p s o o n e n e e d s t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a n o t h e r r e a s o n –
t h e r e i s a d i ff e r e n t r e a s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o t h e r o n e I t h i n k w a s – o h th is o n e I t h i n k t h e tw o
– t h e l a s t tw o r e l a t e d t o tr u s t is s u e s .
10

M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B r e a k - d o w n o f th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b o t h o f th e m I t h i n k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y m i g h t – t h e y m i g h t b e m o r e d i ff ic u l t t h a n t h e
fir s t o n e to e s t a b li s h a n i ll e g i ti m a t e r e a s o n b u t i t a l w a y s d e p e n d s
w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e fa c t s w h ic h s u p p o r t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t is b e i n g a l le g e d b u t a g a i n w h a t e v e r w e a r e

d o i n g w e h a v e g o t to l e a v e r o o m f o r a s i t u a t io n w h e r e a te r m in a ti o n is
wrong.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And maybe has no basis – has no proper basis but

s o m e b o d y w r o n g ly t h o u g h t th e r e w a s a p r o p e r b a s is a n d i t i s n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly a n il le g it i m a t e r e a s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Tr u e . Ye s tr u e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

A n d t h e n w i t h th e

e x e r c is e o f – t h a t y o u h a v e d o n e i n r e s p e c t o f e a c h a n d e v e r y o n e o f
t h e s e t e r m in a ti o n s w h ic h w e – y o u h a v e e x tr a c te d a s th o s e th a t y o u
b e li e v e t h e y t a lk t o t h i s w h o le p r o je c t o f s t a te c a p t u r e .

B u t a s C h a ir

s a i d t h e n th e a n a l y s is y o u g o i n g t o h a v e t o d o .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n o th e r t a b l e a n d y o u h a v e t o c o m e b a c k
with that analysis.

B u t j u s t f o r c o n c l u s i o n t h e s e a m o u n ts o f a ll t h e s e

p a y - o u ts d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d o f 2 0 – l a r g e ly b e t w e e n 2 0 1 6 m o s t o f t h e m ,
10

2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 6 t h a t g r a n d to t a l o f w h a t w a s p a i d y o u r e fl e c t e d in E x h i b i t
17.2 at page 338.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And that amount comes to how much?
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h e a m o u n t is R 1 0 2 4 0 3 3 3 1 .9 7 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is th a t th e a m o u n t – t o ta l a m o u n t p a i d t o v a r i o u s

e m p l o y e e s w h o s e c o n tr a c t s w e r e t e r m i n a t e d i n c e r t a i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s
d u r i n g a c e r t a i n p e r io d
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I n c lu d i n g th e o n e s w e h a v e t a l k e d a b o u t?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d i n e a c h i n s t a n c e y o u h a v e g o t th e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
n a m e o f t h e e m p lo y e e , y o u h a v e g o t t h e t i tl e o f t h e e m p l o y e e a n d th e n
y o u h a v e t h e a m o u n ts p a id t o t h e m . B u t m a y b e j u s t – w h a t is i m p o r ta n t
t o – y o u h a v e a ls o ti tl e d t h e m .

Yo u h a v e g o t t h e g r o u p – t h e r e is

la r g e l y m o s t g r o u p e x e c u ti v e s .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u h a v e g o t g r o u p e x e c u tiv e t e c h n o l o g y.
Yo u h a v e g r o u p e x e c u tiv e C h i e f E x e c u ti v e O ffic e .

Yo u h a v e g r o u p

e x e c u tiv e n e w s . Yo u h a v e g o t g r o u p e m p l o y e e r e la t io n s c o n s u l t a n t .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o m o s t o f – y o u k n o w y o u h a v e g o t a ll o f
t h o s e p e o p l e w h o w e r e h o l d i n g t h o s e s e n io r g r o u p e x e c u t iv e r a d io .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

So then when you come back then

y o u a r e g o i n g t o d e a l – c o n t in u e w it h th e s e s o a s n o t t o w a s t e ti m e d o
t h e e x e r c i s e th a t t h e C h a ir h a s a s k e d y o u t o d o in r e s p e c t o f e a c h a n d
every one.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e r e p l a c e m e n t o f th e p e o p l e th a t

y o u s a y i n m o s t i n s ta n c e s w e r e ir r e g u l a r ly a p p o i n te d i n t h e p la c e o f
20

t h e s e p e o p l e i n s o m e o f t h e s e p e o p le .
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : C o r r e c t.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

W i t h y o u r le a v e th e n

C h a ir m a y th is w it n e s s b e r e le a s e d f o r n o w f o r h i m t o c o m e b a c k a n d
conclude?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x c u s e d f o r n o w.
M R J O N AT H A N TH E K I S O : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C h a ir I w is h t o c a l l n o w M s L u l a m a

Mokhobo.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is f i n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . H e r s t a t e m e n t M r C h a i r m a n is
o n e o f th e fi l e s th a t t h e R e g is tr a r h a d p la c e d b e f o r e y o u m a r k e d C C 2 0
10

and Exhibit CC24 and her statement is marked CC – I beg your pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e tw o t h a t w e h a v e u s e d in r e g a r d t o t h is w i t n e s s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e a r e n o t g o in g to n e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e s ti ll g o in g t o n e e d t h e m t o d a y ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i ll n e e d j u s t th e o n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 1 7 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y C h a ir m a y I ju s t – w e w i ll n e e d o n ly
C h a ir Ex h ib i t C C 1 7 . 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

20

Ye s t h e o t h e r o n e w e a r e n o t g o in g t o

n e e d n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is h e r s t a t e m e n t – w h a t p a g e is h e r s t a t e m e n t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e r s ta t e m e n t C h a i r a p p e a r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Under 21?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

U n d e r – y e s i t a p p e a r s u n d e r t h e f il e

d iv i d e r 2 1 .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
C H A I R P E R S O N : D iv i d e r 2 1 . J a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y t h e w i tn e s s C h a ir b e s w o r n i n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e a d m i n is t e r th e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e p la c e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Lulama Mokhobo
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: No.
10

REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r th e o a th t o b e b i n d i n g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r th a t th e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w il l b e t h e
tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th ; i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: So help me God.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s M o k h o b o c o u l d y o u
p l e a s e j u s t s ta t e fo r t h e r e c o r d y o u r q u a l i fi c a ti o n s p l e a s e /
20

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I h a v e M a s t e r s D e g r e e in I n s tr u c ti o n a l

Te c h n o l o g y fr o m U t a h S t a t e U n iv e r s i ty.

Prior to that I had a BA and

C o n c u r r e n t D i p lo m a i n E d u c a t io n f r o m t h e t h e n u n iv e r s i ty o f B o t s w a n a
a n d S w a z il a n d n o w k n o w n a s U n i v e r s i ty o f S w a z il a n d a n d I m a tr ic u l a te d
in O r l a n d o H ig h i n 1 9 7 4 . M y a p o l o g i e s it i s s o l o n g a g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u d i d n o t h a v e to s a y it .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d b e fo r e o h s o r r y th e n o n t h e 1 6 t h

February 2012 you joined the SABC, is that correct?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n w h a t c a p a c it y w e r e y o u e m p lo y e d ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I j o i n e d a s t h e G r o u p C E O o f th e S A B C >
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s w h e n y o u j o i n e d t h e S A B C w h e r e –

b e f o r e y o u jo i n e d i t w h e r e d i d y o u w o r k ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
10

P r i o r t o t h a t I h a d w o r k e d a s th e G r o u p

E x e c u t iv e fo r P u b l ic B r o a d c a s ti n g S e r v ic e s a n d th a t w a s fr o m 2 0 0 5 t o
2010.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S t il l a t t h e S A B C ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : S t il l a t t h e S A B C .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . C o u ld y o u t h e n t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t

y o u r r e s p o n s i b il i ti e s w e r e a s a G r o u p E x e c u tiv e o ffic e o f t h e S A B C ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

M y r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s w e r e t o l e a d th e

e x e c u tiv e t e a m a n d th e r e fo r e th e e n ti r e o r g a n i s a t io n i n d e l iv e r in g o n
t h e s t r a t e g ic i m p e r a t iv e s o f t h e S A B C i n t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f a l l
p o li c i e s t h a t h a d b e e n a p p r o v e d b y t h e b o a r d a n d i n s o m e in s ta n c e s
20

c o m i n g u p w it h n e w p o li c i e s a n d d e v e lo p i n g n e w s tr a t e g i e s i n o r d e r to
m e e t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts f o r t h e S A B C f o r D T T a n d o t h e r a c t iv it i e s . A n d I
w a s a ls o a m e m b e r o f t h e b o a r d – a n e x e c u tiv e m e m b e r o f th e b o a r d
a n d b y v i r t u e o f s it t in g a s a n e x e c u ti v e m e m b e r o f th e b o a r d o n e c o u l d
a ls o s a y I w a s in v o lv e d in t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f p o l ic ie s , s tr a t e g ic
d ir e c t io n a n d to s o m e d e g r e e o v e r s i g h t o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n .

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ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

M s M o k h o b o y o u d e a l w i th t h is in

p a r a g r a p h 7 o f y o u r s ta t e – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n y o u h a v e n o t id e n ti f ie d
y o u r s t a te m e n t . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . S o r r y. C o u l d y o u p l e a s e l o o k a t
t h e f il e th a t i s i n fr o n t o f y o u t h a t is u n d e r f o ld e r n u m b e r 2 1 – th a t
d iv i d e r n u m b e r 2 1 ? I s t h a t y o u r s t a te m e n t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s i t is .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I f y o u t u r n t o th e la s t p a g e w h e r e – t h a t

w o u ld b e a t p a g e 9 . I s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s i t is .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . D id y o u m a k e t h is s ta t e m e n t f r e e l y
a n d v o l u n ta r il y ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s I d id .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

Th a n k y o u j u s t t o m o v e

t h e n to w h a t y o u h a v e s t a t e d .

T h e r e a s o n s f o r t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s

in v e s t i g a t o r s

you

to

approach

you,

a r ti c u l a te

th o s e

reasons

at

paragraph 7 of your statement?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e c a u s e t h e y h a d a p a r t ic u l a r – a s p e c i f ic
r e q u e s t th a t – c o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a i r w h y – w h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d
20

t o d e a l w i t h ? Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

When I arrived at the SABC the TNA

breakfasts …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o r r y c o u l d y o u j u s t – w h a t y o u s a y in

p a r a g r a p h 7 j u s t t e l l t h e C h a i r w h a t is i t t h a t y o u w e r e c a l l e d t o d e a l
w i t h b y t h e – b y th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Oh.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

O k a y.

I w a s r e q u e s te d t o d e a l w i t h t h e

m a t t e r s a r o u n d T N A M e d i a w h ic h w a s t h e te le v i s i o n b r o a d c a s t a r m o f
TNA and the New Age newspaper which was one of the products of
TNA.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is i t – i t is c o r r e c t th a t y o u w e r e i n v o lv e d
in t h e s i g n in g o f t h e c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n th e S A B C a n d th e – TN A M e d i a ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s I w a s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Sorry what was your answer?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s I w a s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s y o u w e r e .

O h b e fo r e y o u d e a l w it h

t h e c o n tr a c ts c o u ld y o u j u s t t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n h o w d i d i t c o m e a b o u t
t h a t S A B C w a n te d t o d o b u s in e s s w i th T N A M e d i a ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I a m n o t v e r y c l e a r o f t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s

u n d e r w h ic h TN A s t a r te d b r o a d c a s t i n g j o i n tl y – w e ll – i t s t a r te d w o r k in g
w i t h th e S A B C b e c a u s e th a t h a p p e n e d l o n g b e fo r e I s t a r t e d a t t h e
S A B C . H o w e v e r a m a t t e r o f c o n c e r n w h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e w a s t h a t t h e y
w e r e o p e r a t in g w i t h o u t a c o n t r a c t a n d t h e d a n g e r s o f d o i n g t h a t o r
20

q u i te o b v i o u s t h a t t h e r e c o u l d s u d d e n ly b e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f th e S A B C
t h a t i t c o u l d n o t m e e t a n d fo r t h e p r o te c t io n o f t h e i n t e g r i ty o f t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n a n d th e p r o t e c ti o n o f t h e p r o d u c t t h a t t h e o r g a n is a t i o n w a s
b r o a d c a s t in g i t w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r a c o n tr a c t to b e e n te r e d i n to .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

So then – so when – they were

a lr e a d y – w h e n y o u s a y th e y w e r e a lr e a d y d o i n g b u s in e s s w i t h t h e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
S A B C t h a t m e a n s t h a t th e y w e r e a l r e a d y d e li v e r i n g n e w s p a p e r w it h
SABC?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e y w e r e a lr e a d y d e li v e r i n g n e w s p a p e r t h e
liv e b r o a d c a s ts w e r e a l r e a d y h a p p e n in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h i s w a s h a p p e n in g w it h o u t a n y f o r m a l
c o n tr a c t?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n y o u d e a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D o y o u r e m e m b e r f o r h o w lo n g b e f o r e y o u
10

c a m e t h e y h a d b e e n d o in g t h is o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u c a n n o t
remember?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : C h a ir u n f o r tu n a t e ly I d o n o t h a v e t h e d e t a i l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

However I am aware that they had been

r u n n in g f o r – f o r q u it e a w h i l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r q u i te s o m e t i m e .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h is c o u l d b e te s t e d w it h t h e S A B C i t s e l f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . T h e n y o u – y o u – t h e n
20

y o u d is c o v e r t h a t l o o k th e r e w a s n o c o n t r a c t a n d w h a t a r e th e s t e p s
t h a t y o u t o o k i n o r d e r t o r e g u l a r is e t h a t s i t u a t io n ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A t t h a t p o i n t i t t u r n e d o u t th a t th e t h e n a c ti n g
h e a d o f n e w s Mr M i k e S e l u m a a n d h is e x e c u tiv e m a n a g e m e n t te a m
w e r e a ls o a w a r e o f t h i s p r o b l e m – I w il l c a l l i t a p r o b l e m a n d t h e y h a d
w r i t t e n a r e q u e s t t o th e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t to d r a f t t h a t c o n tr a c t .

Page 63 of 173

So

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
e s s e n ti a l ly th is p r o c e s s w a s d r iv e n b y t h e n e w s d e p a r t m e n t i ts e l f .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

And then thereafter then you had

t h is c o n tr a c t w h ic h y o u d e a l w it h i n p a r a g r a p h 11 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir t h a t c o n tr a c t w o u l d b e f o u n d a t p a g e
– s ta r t i n g fr o m p a g e 1 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t it .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a y I d ir e c t y o u r

a tt e n ti o n C h a ir t o p a g e 3 0 I a m s o r r y t h e r e i s t w o .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is t h e s i g n a t u r e p a g e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h a t i s t h e s ig n a t u r e p a g e .

Ms

M o k h o b o is th a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e a t p a g e 3 0 ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u r n a m e s a r e r e fl e c t e d t h e r e ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I w o u l d lik e y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h ic h – h e r s ig n a t u r e is t h e o n e o n b e h a l f
20

o f S A B C is th a t th e o n e ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s i t is .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh there is your name. Okay thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir y e s a n d t h i s w a s s i g n e d o n t h e
13th March 2012?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s i t w a s .

Page 64 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u .

C o u l d y o u j u s t g iv e t h e

C h a ir b r ie f ly w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d a s t h e – t h e m a t e r i a l t e r m s o f t h e
a g r e e m e n t – w h a t is i t t h a t w a s e x p e c t e d o f t h e S A B C a n d w h a t w a s
e x p e c te d o f t h e T N A i n t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I n t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t th e TN A w a s to

p r o v i d e a n d i t d id to p r o v i d e th e v e n u e s , i n v i t e t h e g u e s t s a n d p r o v i d e
a l l th e r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t t h e S A B C w o u l d n e e d in a b l e t o b r o a d c a s t t h e
s h o w. A n d a ll o f t h e s e th e TN A w o u l d d o o u t o f i ts o w n v o l i ti o n w i th o u t
a n y a s s is t a n c e f r o m t h e S A B C o r a n y le g a l o b l ig a t io n t o t h e S A B C i n
10

t e r m s o f a c c e s s i n g th e d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e w h o a p p e a r e d o n t h e – f o r t h e
s h o w.

A n d a ls o t h e S A B C h a d n o r e s p o n s i b il it y w h a ts o e v e r w it h t h e

a c c e s s i n g , t h e c r e a ti o n s s o r r y o f th e e v e n t s t h e m s e l v e s .
T h e S A B C ’s r o le o n th e o t h e r h a n d w a s to b r o a d c a s t t h e
e v e n t s . A n d th e r e a s o n t h e S A B C – fo r t h e S A B C i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t o d o
t h a t w a s th e e v e n ts w e r e m a i n ly a i m e d a t g o v e r n m e n t a n d w i t h t h e
S A B C ’s c o r e v a lu e b e i n g t h a t o f p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t in g a n d t h e r e f o r e
a d e q u a t e l y i n f o r m i n g a n d e d u c a t i n g t h e p u b l ic a b o u t w h a t w a s g o in g o n
in t h e c o u n t r y in p a r t ic u l a r in r e l a ti o n to t h e p r i n c i p le s o f t h e c o u n tr y
a n d h o w th e y r a n th e c o u n tr y.
20

T h e S A B C a n d my s e l f i n p a r ti c u la r o b v i o u s l y s a w th is a s a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o d o w h a t w a s r i g h t f o r t h e p u b li c . A n d t h e r e f o r e i n i ti a l ly
t h e y p r e s e n t e d t h e ms e lv e s a s s o m e t h in g t h a t w a s f o r p u b lic g o o d a n d
t h e r e f o r e i t m a d e s e n s e f o r t h e S A B C t o d o i t . B u t s e c o n d ly t h e r e w a s
g o i n g t o b e n o e x c h a n g e o f m o n e y. T h e S A B C w a s n o t g o i n g t o p a y t h e
T N A a n y th i n g w h a ts o e v e r f o r t h e e v e n t s a n d f o r t h e e x p e n s e s t h a t t h e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
T N A in c u r r e d i f i t d i d in c u r a n y e x p e n s e s r e g a r d i n g t h e s e tu p . A n d a ls o
t h e T N A w o u l d b e u n d e r n o o b li g a t i o n to p a y t h e S A B C a n y m o n e y f o r
the presence of the SABC.
N o w t h a t m a y s o u n d a li t tl e b i t s t r a n g e C h a ir h o w e v e r
t h e r e a s o n is q u i te s i m p le a n d s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d .

I n te r ms o f t h e

B r o a d c a s ti n g C h a r t e r a n d in p a r t ic u l a r t h e p o li c i e s o n n e w s t h e S A B C
c o u l d n o t a n d w a s c o m p le t e l y d e b a r r e d fr o m a c c e p t in g a n y s p o n s o r s h ip
f o r t h e n e w s i ts e l f a n d t h e r e a s o n w a s q u i t e s i m p ly t h a t i f i t w a s
r e c e i v i n g a n y m o n i e s t h e n i t w o u ld b e d i ffi c u l t f o r i t to r e m a in o b j e c t iv e .
10

S o i f P a r ty X p r o v id e d t h e c a s h a n d th e S A B C r e c e iv e d t h e
c a s h a n d t h e S A B C n e e d e d t o c o v e r a s t o r y o n P a r t y X . Th e n P a r ty X
c o u l d v e r y e a s ily s a y b u t I a m p a y i n g y o u . S o - s o i t w a s t o b l o c k a ll
p o s s i b il it i e s o f c o r r u p t a c t iv i ti e s h a p p e n in g w i t h i n t h e S A B C N e w s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

I w o u l d l ik e u s t o g o b a c k .

When you arrived

t h e r e w a s a n a r r a n g e m e n t th a t w a s a lr e a d y i n e x i s te n c e f o r t h e s e
b r e a k f a s t s h o w s . Th e r e w a s n o fo r m a l c o n tr a c t o r a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n
the SABC and TNA or anybody about these. A report must have been
g iv e n t o y o u e v e n if it is v e r b a l t o s a y t h is i s h o w t h i s t h i n g c a m e
a b o u t. I w o u l d l ik e to h e a r t h a t .
20

W h a t w e r e y o u to ld w a s t h e m a i n m o t iv a ti o n t h a t w a s g iv e n t o
S A B C w h e n t h e y w e r e a p p r o a c h e d t o b e i n v o l v e d i n t h is t h in g a n d w h a t
- w h a t w a s i n i t f o r t h o s e w h o a p p r o a c h e d t h e S A B C . W h a t w a s in i t fo r
t h e S A B C a n d i t m a y b e t h a t w h a t w a s in i t fo r th e S A B C w a s w h a t y o u
h a v e s a id n a m e l y t h e n e w s b u t I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o ta k e m e fr o m t h e r e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

C h a ir w h a t I w a s t o ld w a s t h a t t h e - t h e

Page 66 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
approach

that

the

News

Department

had

decided

to

adopt

in

“ p a r tn e r s h ip ” w i th T N A w a s to e x p o s e to t h e p u b lic w h a t G o v e r n m e n t
w a s d o i n g f o r th e p u b l ic - fo r t h e c o u n t r y a n d to t h a t e x te n t th e e v e n ts
s e e m e d to b e c o m p l e t e l y a p o l it ic a l i n th e s e n s e t h a t j u s t a b o u t a l l
m a jo r p o li ti c a l p a r ti e s w o u l d g o a n d - a n d s a y w h a t th e y n e e d e d t o s a y
t o th e p u b lic t h r o u g h t h i s c h a n n e l a n d I a m t h i n k in g o f t h e m a j o r p a r ti e s
here.
The DA for instance was - would be present on certain
o c c a s i o n s a n d s o w o u l d - a n u m b e r o f p o li ti c a l p a r t ie s w o u l d b e
10

in v o lv e d . S o a s I i n i ti a lly s a i d C h a i r w h e n I w a s i n fo r m e d o f t h e c r i ti c a l
v a l u e t h a t t h a t p r o g r a m m i n g w a s p r o v i d i n g a n d t h e b o a r d it s e l f M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d w e r e p a r tic ip a ti n g v e r y a c t iv e l y i n t h e b r e a k f a s t
a n d th a t t h e y w o u l d b e i n v it e d a n d a t t h e o p e n in g o f e a c h b r e a k f a s t
w h o e v e r w a s r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e S A B C w o u l d g o t o t h e p o d iu m a n d s a y a
w o r d o r tw o a b o u t t h e e v e n t a n d - a n d w h y i t w a s b e i n g h e ld .
S o t h e r e - t h e r e w a s v e r y in t e n s e p a r t ic i p a ti o n fr o m t h e S A B C
r ig h t a t t h e to p l e v e l o f o v e r s i g h t a t th e S A B C a n d th e p o li t ic a l h e a d o f
t h e S A B C a n d o th e r p o l i ti c i a n s . S o t h e - t h e r e a s o n s w e r e s u ffi c i e n tly
c o m p e l li n g f o r m e t o n o t s a y n o t h is is w r o n g . Yo u c a n n o t d o i t. T h e y -

20

they

were

c o m p e lli n g

enough

to

accept that indeed

the

-

the

p r o g r a m m i n g p l a y e d a - a c r i t ic a l r o l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e i d e a o f t h e s e

b r e a k f a s t s h o w s h a d o r ig in a t e d fr o m t h e N e w s D e p a r t m e n t o r h a d
o r i g in a te d fr o m T N A o r fr o m o u ts i d e S A B C ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

My understanding was that there was a

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
m u t u a l o r i g i n a ti o n . I t is a v e r y s tr a n g e w a y t o p u t ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld b e v e r y s tr a n g e .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : B u t w h a t I w o u l d s u s p e c t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

With TNA having been the service provider

s o t o s p e a k I a m q u i t e s u r e th a t th e y m a y h a v e e n g a g e d th e S A B C i n
s a y in g c a n y o u c o m e o n b o a r d a n d le t u s d o t h is to g e t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll m a y b e s o m e b o d y e ls e w il l e n l i g h t e n …
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t is l ik e ly t h a t t h e i d e a c a m e fr o m o n e s id e
a n d t h e - a p p r o a c h e d th e o th e r s i d e t o s a y t h i s i s w h a t w e a r e th in k i n g
a n d t h e n t h e o th e r s i d e w a s p e r s u a d e d a n d t h e n t h e y - th e y d e a l t d e a lt w i t h i t .

S o a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d it .

The purpose was to do what

with these breakfast shows?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

T h e p u r p o s e w a s a s - a s th e y k i n d o f

s lo g a n is e d i t . I t w a s t o - to b r i n g G o v e r n m e n t t o th e p e o p l e . Th a t is
h o w i t w a s s lo g a n is e d a n d t o t h e e x te n t t h a t t h e n u m b e r o f b r o a d c a s ts
in c r e a s e d a n d t h e tr i p s t o a r e a s o u ts i d e o f G a u te n g i n c r e a s e d .

The

a r g u m e n t w a s t h o s e t r i p s a n d t h e s e t u p s in t h e r e m o t e a r e a s w e r e
20

i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e t h o s e p e o p le a ls o n e e d e d t o k n o w w h a t G o v e r n m e n t
was doing.
F o r in s t a n c e th e r e is a ti m e t o w a r d s t h e e l e c ti o n s w h e n I
k n o w t h a t fr o m t h e p o li t ic a l p a r ti e s ’ p e r s p e c tiv e i t w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r
t h e m a s p a r t o f t h e ir r a ll y i n g o f t h e p e o p l e i t w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e m t o
g o o u t a n d t a l k to t h e p e o p le a n d t o t h a t e x t e n t t h e r e w e r e q u it e a

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
n u m b e r o f r e g i o n a l b r o a d c a s ts t h a t w e r e d o n e w h ic h s h o u ld b e i n f o r
in s t a n c e - I k n o w t h e r e w a s o n e i n - in M m a b a t h o in p a r ti c u la r w h e r e
t h e l o c a l p o li t ic ia n s w e r e - w e r e p r e s e n t a n d t h e y d i d th e d i s c u s s i o n
a n d th e q u e s t io n a n d a n s w e r s e s s i o n s . S o th a t i s r e a l ly it .
CHAIRPERSON: So - so the idea was to so to speak bring Government
t o t h e p e o p le …
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And Government would then tell the people what they
a r e d o i n g - w h a t G o v e r n m e n t is d o i n g I a s s u m e …
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I g u e s s t h a t t o t h e e x te n t t h a t i t w o u l d b e

p o s s i b le f o r G o v e r n m e n t t o a ls o h e a r w h a t p e o p le h a v e to s a y a b o u t
s e r v ic e s - s e r v i c e d e liv e r y in th e v a r i o u s a r e a s . T h a t is o n e . S o t h a t t h a t - i s - is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d in f a c t s ir - C h a ir t h e r e

were question and answer sessions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W h e r e t h e r e w o u l d b e a n i n - p e r s o n n e l fr o m
the News Department.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A m o d e r a to r ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: A news anchor …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W h o w o u l d b e p r e s e n t in t h e b r e a k fa s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d f a c il i ta t e a d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n w h o e v e r

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
t h e m a in s p e a k e r s w e r e a n d t h e - t h e a u d i e n c e t h a t w a s p r e s e n t a n d
t h e y w o u l d a ls o r u n S M S s e r v ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

S o t h e b r o a d e r p u b li c o u t t h e r e th a t c o u l d

n o t b e in t h e r o o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

C o u l d a ls o a s k t h e ir q u e s t i o n s a n d t h e

q u e s t io n s w o u l d b e r u n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Through.
CHAIRPERSON:
w i t h t h is .

O k a y a n d m a y b e y o u - y o u w e r e s t ill g o i n g to d e a l

Yo u h a v e s a i d t h e S A B C w a s n o t g o i n g to b e p a id f o r

a n y th in g a n d i t w a s n o t g o i n g to p a y f o r a n y t h i n g a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d i t
…
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t TN A w o u ld m a k e m o n e y o u t o f i t o r n o t ? A s y o u
u n d e r s t o o d it .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Yo u k n o w C h a i r w h a t I u n d e r s to o d w a s t h a t

T N A w o u l d fi n d a w a y to o r g a n is e t h e e v e n ts . A s f a r a s I w a s a w a r e th e
20

r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n T N A a n d - a n d t h e S A B C o n t h o s e a s p e c t s w a s
c o m p le t e l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s a d i s ta n c e ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ar m ’s l e n g t h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t w a s - i t w a s v e r y d i s t a n t.

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Th e S A B C h a d n o r ig h t t o f in d o u t h o w a n d

w h e n t h e y w e r e g e t ti n g t h e m o n e y a n d h o w m u c h i t w a s a n d t h e r e fo r e
in r e s p e c ti n g th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p i n t h a t m a n n e r I w a s n e v e r a w a r e o f t h e
m o n i e s t h a t T N A w a s r e c e iv i n g in t h e r u n n i n g o f t h e - o f t h e b r o a d c a s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o t h e - t h e a n s w e r w o u l d b e - w o u l d th e a n s w e r
b e t h a t y o u d i d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e g o i n g to m a k e m o n e y o r n o t
m a k e m o n e y.

Yo u r e g a r d e d i t a s S A B C .

Yo u r e g a r d e d t h a t a s r e a ll y

none of your business. Is that right?
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

In

p a r a g r a p h 11 w h e r e y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d t h e a g r e e m e n t y o u a ls o in d ic a te
w h o w a s n e g o t ia t in g o n b e h a l f o f t h e S A B C t h is c o n tr a c t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d w h o w a s t h a t p e r s o n ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : M r T h a b a M a te b e ( ? ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d i n w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t w a s h e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

H e w a s t h e A c ti n g H e a d o f t h e L e g a l

D e p a r t m e n t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d i f I w e r e to t a k e y o u b a c k a g a in

M s M o k h o b o to p a g e 3 0 w h e r e y o u r s i g n a t u r e a p p e a r s a n d m a y b e
turnover to page 31. I see there is -the full name of Mr Matebe - did he
s ig n o n t h a t p a g e ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s . T h a t i s h is s ig n a tu r e .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d a l s o s i g n e d o n t h a t

page and again at page 30 you signed and Mr Nazeem Howa signed?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

D i d y o u - b e f o r e y o u e n t e r e d in t o

t h is a g r e e m e n t d i d y o u a s a p e r s o n p e r s o n a lly a t y o u r p e r s o n a l l e v e l
know Mr Nazeem Howa?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : N o n o t - n o t r e a l ly. I t s o u n d s lik e a b i t o f a
s tr a n g e q u e s t io n . W e - w e o n ly g o t in tr o d u c e d w h e n …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h is m a t te r w a s b e i n g a tt e n d e d to .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d a t t h is s ta g e h a d y o u m e t a n y o f
t h e G u p t a f a m ily m e m b e r s . D o y o u - h a v e y o u e v e r m e t t h e m a t a n y at any point?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: I had met - I think it was Atul Gupta …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

M a n y, m a n y y e a r s a g o a n d t h a t w a s l o n g

b e f o r e I j o i n e d th e S A B C t h e f ir s t t i m e e a r ly 2 0 0 0 s . P o s s i b ly 2 0 0 3 . I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b u t th is w a s w h e n t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g o f B R I C S …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

W a s c o o r d i n a t e d in I n d ia a n d I g o t i n v i te d .

A t t h e ti m e P r e s i d e n t T h a b o M b e k i w a s a t t h e h e l m o f t h is c o u n tr y a n d I
w a s i n v it e d a s a m e m b e r o f h is d e le g a ti o n t o a t te n d th e - th e …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: BRICS?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: The inaugural - it was called - the inaugural
m e e ti n g a n d t h a t i s h o w I - I m e t h i m a n d I m u s t s a y th a t a t t h a t t i m e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
t h e r e w a s n o r e a l I w o u l d s a y a c k n o w le d g e m e n t o f e a c h o t h e r. I t w a s
ju s t p e o p l e fr o m S o u th A fr ic a s a y in g h e ll o t o e a c h o t h e r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d t h a t w a s it .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n a f t e r y o u r

a p p o i n t m e n t d id y o u h a v e o c c a s io n to m e e t h i m ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A f t e r I w a s a p p o i n t e d it - i t w a s s o m e t h i n g

q u i te - q u i t e s tr a n g e . I w a s - H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g w h o w a s Ac t in g C O O
c a m e t o m y o ffi c e a n d s a i d I - I h a v e t o ta k e y o u s o m e w h e r e v e r y
10

q u ic k ly a n d h e w o u l d n o t t e l l m e w h e r e i t w a s .

I t w a s a ll v e r y h u s h ,

h u s h a n d w e a r r iv e d a t t h i s m a s s i v e h o u s e a n d I s a w o n t h e w a l l
S a h a r a C o m p u t e r s a n d h e s a id w e l l w e a r e h e r e b e c a u s e th e s e p e o p l e
w a n t to c o n g r a t u la t e y o u .
S o I w e n t i n to g e th e r w i t h H l a u d i . I d o r e c a l l th a t m y p h o n e
a n d e v e r y b o d y e ls e ’s p h o n e w a s ta k e n a n d t h e b a t t e r y w a s r e m o v e d
a n d w e le d in t o a d i n in g r o o m w h e r e th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e p r e s e n t
p r o c e e d e d t o c o n g r a tu l a t e m e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

And

who

were

th o s e

p e o p le

who

congratulated you?
20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I s e e m t o r e c a ll t h a t t h e r e w a s - w e ll I t h i n k
it w a s A j a y G u p ta i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n . A t u l G u p t a I t h in k h e w a s th e r e
w a s w e l l.

D u d u z a n e Zu m a a n d Mr A c e M a g a s h u le ’s s o n .

r e m e m b e r h i s n a m e a n d th e n th e r e w a s H l a u d i a n d m y s e l f .

I cannot
If there

w e r e o t h e r p e o p l e I - I r e a l ly c a n n o t q u i te r e c a l l th e m b e c a u s e t h is w a s
a w h i l e a g o a n d w e s a t a t th e ta b le .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
T h e r e w a s a b it o f f o o d a n d th e y c o n g r a t u la t e d m e a n d
p r o m p tly to l d m e th a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e li k e d t o p l a y a - a r o le i n S A B C ’s
D D T f u tu r e b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e i n te r e s t e d i n c r e a ti n g a n e w s c h a n n e l
a n d t h a t t h e y w o u ld h o p e th a t I w o u l d a l l o w t h e m o r e n a b l e th e m t o g e t
a c c e s s t o a c h a n n e l a n d a t th a t p o in t I s a i d to t h e m l o o k I - I d o n o t
b e li e v e th a t i t w o u ld b e e a s y t o j u s t g iv e a n y b o d y a c h a n n e l .
I a m q u it e s u r e t h a t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e t o b e a p r o p e r t e n d e r
process and a number of - it would be opened up and we expect that a
n u m b e r o f p e o p le w o u l d a p p l y a l s o t o b e p a r t o f t h e D D T n e t w o r k o f th e
10

S A B C w h e n i t d id c o m e a b o u t a n d r e a l ly t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g f u r th e r to
d is c u s s a n d th e y - t h e y s a i d c o n g r a t u l a ti o n s a n d t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f i t .
I w a s n o t t h e r e l o n g - y o u k n o w. W e t h e n p r o m p tly w e n t b a c k
t o t h e o ff ic e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w - t h e n w h a t w a s y o u r - w h e n w h e n t h e y w e r e s a y i n g - w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h a t
c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t y o u h a d w i th t h e m ? T h a t y o u w o u ld m a k e i t p o s s ib le .
W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ? W h a t is i t t h a t t h e y - t h e y w a n te d f r o m
you?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: I - I saw it as a - a lobbying of sorts for them

20

t o b e a ff o r d e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty o n S A B C p l a t fo r ms a t t h a t t i m e a n d lik e I
said I did not go in prepared because I did not know what this was
about …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d a s I s a id it w a s j u s t to c o n g r a t u l a t e m e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

D id y o u fi n d th a t c o n v e r s a ti o n i n a n y w a y

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
i m p r o p e r o r w e r e y o u - y o u f o u n d th a t - I m e a n I a m n o t g o in g t o d o
what they - they want.

I c a n n o t d o i t u n t il a s y o u s a y t h e te n d e r

p r o c e s s e s h a v e b e e n f o ll o w e d b u t h o w - h o w d id y o u a s s e s s th a t
c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I - I f o u n d i t a l it t le b i t s tr a n g e t h a t s u c h a a p r o p o s i t io n c o u l d b e p u t to m e b u t t h e n I - I e x c u s e d t h e m m e n t a l ly
in s t e a d o f m e a s w e ll y o u k n o w th is is a n o th e r l o b b y i n g b e c a u s e t h e r e
is a lw a y s a l o t o f l o b b y i n g g o in g a r o u n d w i t h p e o p le s e e k in g b u s in e s s
o p p o r t u n i ti e s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h e n j u s t o n t h e r e a d in g o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t h a v i n g b e e n a p p o in t e d o n 1 6 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 a n d t h i s c o n tr a c t
was signed …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u m o v e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To a n o t h e r p o i n t Ms N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s - th is s o u n d s v e r y s tr a n g e t o m e . H e r e i s a - t h e
G r o u p C E O o f S A B C . S o m e b o d y is s a y in g t o h e r p l e a s e c o m e I w a n t t o
t a k e y o u s o m e w h e r e a n d d o e s n o t w a n t t o t e ll h e r w h e r e .
20

How come

y o u d i d n o t i n s is t t o Mr M o ts o e n e n g I c a n n o t ju s t g o a n y w h e r e j u s t
b e c a u s e y o u - y o u th i n k I s h o u l d g o th e r e ? I a m n o t g o i n g w h e r e I d o
n o t k n o w.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

He was very persuasive Chair and besides

w i t h m e b e in g n e w a n d h i m b e i n g t h e A c t in g C - C O O a t s o m e p o in t A c ti n g C E O a n d h e - h e w a s p e r s u a s iv e b e c a u s e I k e p t i n s is ti n g w h e r e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
a r e w e g o i n g . H e s a i d n o , y o u w il l s e e . Yo u w i ll s e e . C o m e l e t u s j u s t
g o a n d t h e r e w a s a c a r p a r k e d r e a d y t o t a k e u s t h e r e . It w a s n o t h is
c a r. I - I a s s u m e d i t w a s a c a r b e lo n g i n g t o - t o th e G u p t a s a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n o t h is c a r t h a t h e n o r m a l ly u s e d ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : N o i t w a s n o t M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s c a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I t w a s I a s s u m e d a G u p t a c a r w i th a

c h a u ff e u r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d I th e n t h o u g h t y o u k n o w w h a t m a y b e

there is no real harm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: I had no reason at that point ….
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : To b e s u s p ic i o u s o f h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I g u e s s w e ll y o u m i g h t a ls o b e i n g n e w y o u m i g h t
h a v e a ls o w a n t e d t o b u i ld r e l a ti o n s h i p s w it h p e o p l e t h a t y o u w e r e
w o r k i n g w i th i n c l u d i n g th e C O O a n d y o u m i g h t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly n e e d e d
t o s h o w d is tr u s t o r a n y t h i n g w i th o u t a r e a s o n ?
20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir. P a r t i c u l a r ly …
CHAIRPERSON: That kind of thing.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : P a r tic u la r ly C h a ir b e c a u s e H l a u d i w a s s u c h a
- a t r u s t e d m e m b e r o f t h e S A B C E x e c u t iv e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d a s - a s Ac ti n g C O O h e a ls o s a t o n t h e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
board and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : H e w a s v e r y w e l l lo v e d a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: There were accolades and accolades heaped
o n h i m a ll t h e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : S o I r e a ll y n o r e a l r e a s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : To - t o b e s u s p i c io u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: And yes.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h a v e - h a v i n g - h a v in g g o n e th e r e to - w a s i t a t

t h e r e s id e n c e o r w a s i t a t t h e c o m p a n y o f S a h a r a C o m p u t e r s ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t w a s a t t h e - a t th e r e s i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: At the residence?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Then it had a clock outside.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a t th e r e s id e n c e ?
20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. H a v in g b e e n t a k e n t h e r e a n d n o w fi n d i n g o u t

t h a t a l l th is w a s ju s t s o th a t s o m e b o d y m u s t h a v e a c h a n c e t o s a y
c o n g r a t u l a ti o n s . D i d y o u n o t f in d t h a t q u i t e s tr a n g e ? Yo u k n o w. W h y
m u s t p e o p l e t h a t o n e I th i n k y o u d id n o t k n o w r e a ll y m u c h a n d w h y i f
t h e y w a n t t o c o n g r a tu l a t e y o u - w h y m u s t y o u b e ta k e n t o t h e m a n d -

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
w a s t h a t n o t - d id y o u n o t fi n d t h a t s tr a n g e ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t w a s a b i t s tr a n g e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t w a s a b i t s tr a n g e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s r e a ll y
n o f u r t h e r s u b s t a n c e t o th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e y o u u p s e t a b o u t i t th a t M r M o t s o e n e n g t a k e -

t o o k y o u fo r t h a t r e a l ly ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: I was intrigued …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d m a y b e s l ig h tl y a n n o y e d b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Yo u k n o w I w a s - h e r e I w a s t a k e n a w a y fr o m
my desk …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d - a n d y e s i t w a s a r o u n d lu n c h t i m e . S o
you know …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : B u t I w a s in tr i g u e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

J a , j a b u t y o u d i d n o t s a y - d i d y o u s a y a n y t h in g t o

h i m a f t e r w a r d s a b o u t i t o r y o u ju s t a l l o w e d i t t o j u s t d ie d o w n ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I c a n n o t q u i t e r e c a l l w h a t I s a id t o h i m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r, y e s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n h o w s o o n a f t e r

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t d i d th is m e e ti n g - c o n g r a t u l a to r y m e e t in g t a k e p la c e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Gosh.

I t h in k i t w a s w i t h i n a w e e k - w i t h i n

t h e fi r s t w e e k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O f y o u r - o f y o u r a p p o in t m e n t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d b e t w e e n t h e t i m e o f y o u h a d t h e c o n g r a tu l a t o r y m e e t in g a n d t h e s i g n i n g o f t h e a g r e e m e n t
d i d y o u a t a n y s t a g e h a v e a n y in t e r a c ti o n w i t h a n y o f t h e s e p e o p le o r
s o m e o f t h e p e o p le t h a t h a d c o n g r a t u l a t e d y o u a t a l l?
10

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

No.

I h a v e t o th in k v e r y c a r e f u lly n o w

b e c a u s e I t h i n k w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s in t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s a n d
t h e s e w e r e n o t f o r m a l c o n v e r s a ti o n s a n d n o t m i n u t e d t h e c o n c e r n w a s
r a i s e d th a t y o u k n o w w e a r e b u s y d o i n g t h e s e b r e a k fa s ts a n d th e r e is
n o c o n t r a c t a n d th is w a s s o m e o f th e m e m b e r s - B o a r d M e m b e r s t a lk i n g
a b o u t it a n d I a g r e e d w i t h t h e m th a t in d e e d y o u k n o w y o u c o u l d n o t
h a v e a r e l a ti o n s h i p o f t h is n a t u r e w h ic h in v o l v e d t h e S A B C e v e n ts a n d
personnel going out of the SABC.
Ye s th e y d id t h a t r e g u la r ly i n t h e r e g u l a r c o n n e c ti o n o f n e w s .
H o w e v e r - f o r o t h e r t h in g s - h o w e v e r h a v i n g a l m o s t l ik e a - a n e x c l u s iv e
20

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h a p a r t ic u l a r p a r ty t h a t i t w a s n o t p r o p e r a n d in f a c t
C h a ir i t - i t w a s e v e n tu a l ly g o in g t o b e - t h e r e w a s e v e n t u a ll y g o i n g to
b e a n a u d i t f i n d in g b e c a u s e o n c e a r e l a t i o n s h i p is r e g u l a r th e n s u r e ly i t
has to be regulated.
P a r t ic u l a r l y i f t h e r e a r e v e r y s p e c i fi c d e l iv e r a b le s fr o m - fr o m
e i t h e r p a r t y.

If you look at in terms of the SABC own process of

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a c q u ir in g c o n t e n t y o u h a v e to e n t e r i n t o a n a g r e e m e n t .

H o w e v e r fo r

t h e n e w s y e s i t is d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e t o g o a n d c o v e r w h a t is
g o i n g o n a t th e t i m e th a t i t is g o i n g o n .

S o a c o n tr a c t m a y n o t b e

n e c e s s a r y b u t i n th is o n e b e c a u s e t h i s w a s a v e r y s t e a d y s u p p li e r c o n te n t s u p p li e r. I t w a s i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e r e b e a c o n tr a c t t o r e g u l a t e
t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

S o t h e n h o w fr e q u e n t w a s - w e r e

t h e s e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : C h a ir i n i ti a lly t h e r e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e j u s t
10

t w o ti m e s a m o n t h . N o w t h is w a s 2 0 1 2 . T h e n 2 0 1 2 w a s ju s t t w o y e a r s
b e f o r e th e 2 0 1 4 e le c ti o n s .

Th e r e w a s g o in g to b e a - a S t a te o f t h e

N a t io n A d d r e s s in C a p e To w n , t h e o p e n i n g o f P a r li a m e n t a n d - a n d
v a r io u s o t h e r e v e n t s - i m p o r t a n t e v e n ts w e r e - w e r e h a p p e n i n g w i th i n
t h e c o u n t r y.
T h e r e w a s t h e r e l a u n c h o f t h e D D T. T h e r e w e r e a l l k in d s o f of events that were happening and for the News Department it was
i m p o r t a n t c o n t e n t f o r t h e m a n d - a n d t h a t is w h y t h e y a c t u a ll y i n i t ia t e d
t h e c o n tr a c t in g p r o c e s s .

I t w a s - i t w a s i m p o r ta n t f o r t h e m to h a v e

a c c e s s t o - to w h a t e v e r c o n t e n t t h e y c o u l d f i n d w h ic h s p o k e d ir e c tly t o
20

t h e p e o p l e a n d - a n d t h a t is h o w w e e n d e d u p in a p l a c e w h e r e t h e
c o n tr a c t h a d t o b e e n t e r e d i n t o .
N o w m y s i g n a t u r e o n th e c o n tr a c t w a s r e a l ly fr o m a p r o t o c o l
p e r s p e c t iv e i f I c a n c a ll it t h a t b e c a u s e t h e - t h e - T N A h a d th e ir C h ie f
E x e c u t iv e r e p r e s e n ti n g th e m a n d I w a s th e C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e o f t h e S A B C
w o r k i n g w i th t h e S A B C N e w s Te a m i n th i s r e g a r d .

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T h e r e f o r e t h a t is

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
how my signature came on.

I d o b e li e v e h o w e v e r t h a t i t c o u l d e a s i ly

h a v e b e e n h a n d l e d b y th e A c t i n g C h i e f O p e r a t in g O ff ic e r to g e th e r w i t h
t h e G r o u p E x e c u tiv e o f N e w s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s a id t h a t

t h is w a s m o r e i m p o r ta n t f o r t h e N e w s D e p a r t m e n t w h o w a s a t t h a t t i m e
h e a d i n g t h e N e w s D e p a r t m e n t?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I t w a s M r J i m i M a t th e w s .

H e w a s A c ti n g

Head of News.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : F ir s t th e r e w a s M r Mi k e S e l u m a …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Who was there for a very short time and then
h e - h e w a s r e m o v e d a n d r e p la c e d b y J i m i M a t t h e w s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I h a d a s k e d a b o u t t h e fr e q u e n c y a n d
t h e n y o u s ta r t e d b y s a y i n g w e l l th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to b e t w i c e a m o n th
a n d t h e n w h e n - d id th o s e - d i d t h e y in c r e a s e o v e r t i m e a n d i f t h e y d id
to what extent?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e y d i d in c r e a s e o v e r t i m e . I t is - i t i s v e r y
d i ff ic u l t to c a l c u l a t e th e e x te n t w i t h o u t l o o k i n g a t th e r e c o r d s c o m in g

20

o u t o f t h e S A B C N e w s D e p a r t m e n t i ts e l f a n d I t h in k i t m a y b e
w o r t h w h i le t o g e t t h o s e r e c o r d s . I d o n o t h a v e t h e m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A s - a s - y o u c a n i m a g i n e h a v i n g le f t t h e

o r g a n i s a t io n . I h a v e n o a c c e s s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : To a l o t o f d o c u m e n ta t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . C a n I j u s t t a k e y o u … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t fr o m y o u r o w n r e c o l le c t io n w h a t is y o u r s e n s e o f
h o w m u c h th e y i n c r e a s e d .

W o u l d i t h a v e b e e n th r e e - t h r e e t i m e s a

m o n th , f o u r t i m e s a m o n t h o r y o u c a n n o t e v e n r e m e m b e r t h a t?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: I - I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e o r le s s .
10

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I d o n o t b e li e v e C h a ir t h a t t h e r e w a s a n

e x a c t fo r m u l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e y w e r e a l l d r iv e n b y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n ts ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : E v e n ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d n o t n e c e s s a r ily b y - b y a f o r m u l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s .

M a y b e w e n e e d t o d e a l w i t h th e

a s p e c t t h a t y o u m e n t i o n e d . T h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e y o u r r e p o r t e r s g o i n g
t o th e p l a c e s w h e r e th e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s w e r e g o in g t o h a p p e n . T h is is
a m a t te r t h a t w a s r a is e d b y tw o w it n e s s e s y e s te r d a y. B y t h e H e a d o f
N e w s , M s P h a t h i s w a M a g o p e n i a n d b y t h e F i n a n c ia l C h i e f - F i n a n c i a l
O ff ic e r, M s Yo l a n d e Va n B i lj o n t h a t th e S A B C n e v e r in v o ic e d T N A fo r
t h e c o s ts th a t t h e y i n c u r r e d f o r a i r t i m e , f o r h a v i n g th e i r r e p o r te r s

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tr a v e l li n g t h e r e f o r - th e ir e q u i p m e n t, f o r a l l o f th o s e e x p e n s e s .
T h e y w e r e n e v e r i n v o ic e d f o r th a t .

Do you have an

e x p l a n a t io n a s to w h y th a t w a s s o ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A t t h e v e r y - f r o m t h e v e r y o u ts e t i t h a d b e e n
a g r e e d t h a t th e - t h e c o n t e n t c o m i n g o u t o f t h o s e b r e a k f a s ts w a s v e r y
n e w s w o r t h y a n d S A B C N e w s w o u l d n o t a c c e p t m o n e y to c o v e r a s t o r y
o f w h a te v e r n a tu r e a n d t h e r e fo r e t h e - th e - i f w e c a ll t h e e v e n t a b a s e
f o r a s t o r y. T h e y c o u l d n o t c h a r g e fo r i t a n d th e r e fo r e it w o u ld n o t b e
proper for TNA to pay the SABC.
10

C h a ir y o u m a y r e c a ll th a t I m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r t h a t i n te r ms o f
t h e S A B C N e w s P o l ic ie s a n d t h e B r o a d c a s t in g C h a r t e r t h e S A B C w a s
a l lo w e d to g o o u t a n d g a t h e r n e w s a n y w h e r e a n d t o w h a t e v e r e x t e n t
t h a t it w a n te d t o .

H o w e v e r th e S A B C N e w s D e p a r t m e n t c o u ld n o t

a c c e p t c a s h / m o n e y f o r d o i n g s o b e c a u s e t h a t w o u l d e ffe c t iv e l y c a u s e
t h e ir d e p e n d e n c e t o b e - h o w c a n I p u t it ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e c o m p r o m i s e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o m p r o m is e d .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

To b e c o m p r o m is e d y e s .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

S o w o u l d t h a t e v e n a p p l i e d to th e

e x p e n s e s t h a t t h e S A B C w o u ld h a v e i n c u r r e d I g a t h e r i n g o r in a t t e n d in g
t h e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

L e t’s p u t i t t h i s w a y C h a ir, t h e S A B C

w o r k e d o n b u d g e t s s o t h e r e w o u ld b e a b u d g e t r e q u e s t th r o u g h n e w s
a n d t h r o u g h r i g o r o u s p r o c e s s t h a t w o u l d e n d u p w i th B o a r d a p p r o v a l f o r
t h e a l lo c a t io n o f t h e b u d g e t . S A B C n e w s w o u ld r e c e iv e i ts o w n b u d g e t ,

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fr o m t h e r e , S A B C N e w s w a s fr e e t o d o w h a t e v e r i t d e e m e d f i t a n d
p r o p e r a n d p a y fo r i t w i th t h e ir b u d g e t . T h e r e f o r e , th e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e
h e a d o f n e w s t o g e t h e r w i t h h is m a n a g e m e n t te a m h a d it c o m p l e t e ly
w i t h i n t h e ir p o w e r t o e x p a n d t h e m o n i e s t h a t th e y e x p a n d e d a n d t o
t e m p e r th e s p e n d in g o f th e m o n ie s i f t h e y f e l t t h a t i t w a s t o o h i g h a n d i t
is i m p o r ta n t t o s ta t e a ls o t h a t a n y in t e r f e r e n c e o n m y p a r t , o r m a y b e l e t
m e s a y in t e r v e n ti o n o n m y p a r t i n th is r e g a r d w o u l d h a v e b e e n v i e w e d
a s i n t e r fe r e n c e a s i n m e p r e v e n ti n g n e w s f r o m d o i n g i ts j o b . Ve r y, v e r y
fi n e li n e h e r e , i n th e s e n s e th a t a s t h e E d it o r i n C h i e f o f t h e S A B C
10

c o u l d n o t g o d o w n t o th e m a n d s a y y o u c a n ’ t d o t h is , y o u c a n d o th is
a n d t h e y w o u l d h a v e to c o m e t o m e to s a y w e h a v e a p r o b l e m h e r e , c a n
you help us resolve it.

Th a t ’s t h e o n l y w a y t h a t I w o u l d g e t i n v o l v e d

w i t h t h e n e w s d e p a r t m e n t a n d n o n e o f t h a t c a m e to m e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

M a ’ a m f r o m t h e fo ll o w i n g p a r a g r a p h s

t h e n y o u d e a l w i t h t h e t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c t it s e l f b u t I ’ d l ik e t o ta k e
y o u t o s o m e s p e c i fi c t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c t , m a y b e s t a r ti n g w i th th e o n e
r e v e a l in g t o t h e fr e q u e n c y o f t h e s e – if I m a y j u s t d ir e c t y o u t o g o t o
page 15 please.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Page 15?
Ye s .

W h a t ’s th e p a g e n u m b e r ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

P a g e 1 5 C h a ir. A c c o r d i n g t o p a r a g r a p h

f o u r o f t h a t , t h a t a g r e e m e n t w a s g o i n g t o r e m a i n i n fo r c e f o r h o w lo n g ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

For a period of 36 months.
Ye s a n d t h e n th e r e a r e ju s t s o m e t e r m s

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
t h a t I w o u l d li k e y o u to j u s t h ig h l i g h t t h e r e fo r in s t a n c e t o t h e o n e
w h ic h y o u h a v e ju s t d e a l t w i t h , a t p a r a g r a p h 5 .6 c o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d
t h a t te r m ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

“ I t is s p e c i fic a l ly r e c o r d e d t h a t t h e S A B C

s h a l l b r o a d c a s t t w o e v e n ts p e r m o n t h a n d t h e S A B C , s h a l l a t
all times

h a v e fi n a l e d i to r i a l c o n tr o l ” .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s s o d i d y o u th e n , w h e n y o u s a id t h a t

o v e r ti m e t h e s e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s i n c r e a s e d , t h e n u m b e r o f s h o w s
in c r e a s e d , d id y o u t h e n s i g n a n o t h e r a g r e e m e n t o r a n a d d e n d u m t o t h is
10

a g r e e m e n t?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

There was no addendum signed and once

a g a in it h a d t o d o w i t h t h e n e w s d e p a r t m e n t b e l ie v i n g t h a t t h e y n e e d e d
t h e c o n te n t a n d t h e r e fo r e b e i n g a v a i l a b le t o c o v e r t h e c o n t e n t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , a n d m a y I a l s o ta k e y o u t o t h e

p a r a g r a p h th a t d e a ls w i th c o s ts , w h ic h is 1 7 .1 . 2 1 if m y r e c o ll e c ti o n is
c o r r e c t , i f I m a y j u s t t a k e y o u to th a t C h a ir, I b e g y o u r p a r d o n m a y I
ju s t t a k e t i m e C h a ir t o g e t t o th a t p a r a g r a p h s o r r y I’v e m a r k e d i t , w h e r e
it s a y s t h a t th e S A B C s h a l l n o t b e li a b l e t o p a y s u b - c o n tr a c t o r s , I’l l
t a k e y o u t o t h a t , i t’s 7 .1 . 2 1 n o t 1 7 i t a p p e a r s a t p a r a g r a p h – a t p a g e
20

1 8 , it ’s 7 . 1 . 2 1 , c o u ld y o u r e a d th a t te r m p l e a s e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

7 point?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

7 . 1 .2 1 , i f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 8 .
O h o k a y, it ’s a c o n ti n u a t io n fr o m 7 . 1 .2 0 a n d

it b e g in s w i th ,
“ e n d a t t h e t o p t h e r e a n d t i m e o u s ly p a y a ll a m o u n ts d u e to a n y

Page 85 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
s u b - c o n t r a c t o r i n r e s p e c t o f a n y s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d b y t h a t s u b c o n tr a c to r i n te r ms o f t h i s a g r e e m e n t , i f r e l e v a n t . S A B C s h a ll
n o t b e h e ld li a b l e fo r p a y m e n t o f a n y a m o u n ts d u e t o s u c h s u b c o n tr a c to r s u n d e r a n y c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h a t s o e v e r a n d a n y s u c h
c o n tr a c to r s h a l l h a v e n o c l a i m f o r s a m e a g a i n s t th e S A B C ” .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d w a s t h e r e , o t h e r th a n t h e t e r m s

t h a t y o u fi n d , f o r e x a m p le i n p a r a g r a p h s e v e n w h i c h w e r e th e d u ti e s
a n d o b li g a t i o n s o f th e T N A M e d i a , m a y b e y o u c a n j u s t h ig h li g h t
b e c a u s e t h e o n e a b o u t v e n u e s , t h a t’s th e m o r e p r o m in e n t te r m t h a t
10

most people refer to and that appears at page 16, the TNA Media shall
c o n v e n e t h e e v e n ts t w i c e o n a m o n th ly b a s is o r a s m u t u a l ly a g r e e d b y
t h e p a r ti e s i n w r i t in g , i f y o u lo o k a t 7 . 1 .1 .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .
Ye s s o u n t il th e ti m e y o u l e f t t h e S A B C

y o u w e r e n o t p r iv y t o a n y o t h e r w r it t e n t e r m s , c h a n g i n g t h e o r i g i n a l
t e r m s o f th is a g r e e m e n t?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

N o a n d C h a i r I b e l ie v e t h a t p e r h a p s th is

w a s a c a v e a t f o r t h e n e w s d e p a r t m e n t to h a v e t h e f l e x i b il it y t o i n c r e a s e
t h e b r o a d c a s t t o m o r e t h a n t h e t w o t i m e s p e r m o n th a n d I w o u l d
20

a s s u m e t h a t th e ir i n w r i ti n g p o s s i b l y h a p p e n e d b e tw e e n t h e m th r o u g h
e m a i l o r p h o n e c a l ls , I’ m n o t c e r t a in t h e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d th e n i f y o u c o u ld ju s t h i g h li g h t

t h o s e t e r m s t h a t y o u b e li e v e i m p o r ta n t f o r o u r p u r p o s e s b e c a u s e
t h e r e ’s o n e – y o u h a d – in i ti a l ly y o u h a d t o l d C h a ir th a t o n c e t h e r e is a
r e g u la r r e la t io n s h i p b e t w e e n a p a r t ic u l a r s u p p li e r o r m a y b e [i n d is t in c t ]

Page 86 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
s u p p li e r a n d t h e S A B C s o t h e r e m ig h t b e w r o n g w i t h th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p
b u t I’ m j u s t , fo r in s ta n c e i n 7 . 1 . 1 0 o n t h e s a m e p a g e i t s a y s ,
“ E n s u r e e x c l u s iv it y t o S A B C a s th e o ffi c i a l b r o a d c a s t p a r t n e r
o f t h e e v e n ts ” .
S o i t s e e m s to m e a t th is p o i n t t h e n t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s
r e g a r d e d a s t h a t o f a p a r tn e r s h ip .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I t h in k th is w o r d w a s u s e d q u i t e l o o s e ly i n

t h e s e n s e t h a t e a r li e r o n w e d o m e n ti o n t h a t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p s h o u l d n o t
b e c o n s tr u e d a s a p a r t n e r s h i p o f a n y s o r t s . T h i s w a s j u s t l o o s e ly p u t
10

a s tw o p a r t ie s w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r, th e r e fo r e a p a r ty w h ic h is T N A a p a r ty
w h ic h is S A B C w o u l d th e n , I s u p p o s e , in t h is in s t a n c e t h e y w e r e tr y in g
t o e m p h a s i s e t h e w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Well the paragraph that you want to

r e fe r t o w h e r e y o u s a y th e r e w a s – t h a t t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s n o t t o b e
c o n s tr u e d a s a p a r tn e r s h i p , is th a t p a r a g r a p h 6 .4 o n t h e s a m e p a g e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .
Okay and then who was going to monitor

t h e n th e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h is a g r e e m e n t ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

It w a s m a in l y t h e C h i e f O p e r a t in g O ff ic e r

a n d t h is is a c ti n g w i t h [ i n d is ti n c t ] a t t h e h e l m t o g e t h e r w i t h th e G r o u p
E x e c u t iv e o f N e w s w h o w o u l d b e J i m m y M a tt h e w s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d y o u w o u ld h a v e n o r o le to p la y

in m a k i n g s u r e th a t th e y s t u c k t o th e t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c t ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

N o I w o u ld n ’ t h a v e a r o le t o p l a y o n c e

a g a in w i t h th e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f th e n e w s d e p a r t m e n t b e i n g e n s h r i n e d

Page 87 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
c o m p le t e l y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d i f y o u g o – th e n o n to

y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u h i g h l i g h t i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t , l a r g e ly, th e t e r m s a s
y o u ’v e c o p i e d t h e m fr o m t h e c o n tr a c t t h e m s e l v e s , a m I c o r r e c t ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d a ll th o s e t h e y g o u p to

p a r a g r a p h 1 8 a n d w h a t is o f i n te r e s t l a r g e ly is t h e o b l ig a ti o n s o f th e
S A B C , y o u d e a l w i t h th o s e in p a r a g r a p h 1 9 , th a t ’s a t p a g e fi v e o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t .
10

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

P a g e fi v e ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s p a g e f iv e a n d t h e n a t 1 9 . 1 th e

S A B C h a d i d e n t if i e d a p a r ti c u l a r c h a n n e l w h e r e t h e s e w e r e g o i n g t o b e
held?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d t h a t w a s in ?
O n S A B C 2 o n t h e m o r n in g l iv e s lo t .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s s o t h e S A B C a ls o , 1 9 . 2 w a s g o i n g t o

a d v e r t is e th e s e e v e n ts ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

Ye s i t w a s .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s w a s t h a t p e r m i s s i b l e ?
Ye s i t w a s m o r e p r o m o t i n g t h a t s u c h a s to r y

is g o i n g t o b e c o m in g a n d t h a t h a p p e n s a c r o s s a ll c h a n n e l s f o r a n y
d i ff e r e n t e v e n t o r m a t t e r th a t w o u l d b e f li g h t e d t h e n th e r e w o u l d b e a
s h o w i n g w h a t w a s g o i n g to b e c o m i n g u p .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d in p a r a g r a p h 2 1 y o u r e p e a t

Page 88 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
w h a t y o u s a i d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t th e r e
w a s n o t g o in g to b e a n y i n v o ic i n g t h a t w a s g o in g to h a p p e n ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y a n d t h e n y o u h a v e s o m e fi g u r e s

t h a t y o u ’v e p u t i n th e r e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 , w h a t a r e y o u s a y i n g i n t h a t
paragraph?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

In th is p a r a g r a p h I’ m s t a ti n g t h a t th r o u g h

t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s fr o m th e C o m m i s s io n w h o c a m e to m e t o d i s c u s s th is
m a t t e r, I fo u n d o u t t h a t , i n f a c t ,
10

th e o u t d o o r b r o a d c a s t h a d c o s t

R20 326 000 over a few years and once again I do not have the exact
d e t a i l o f h o w m a n y y e a r s th is w a s b u t i t w a s o v e r a fe w y e a r s a n d I
w o u ld c e r t a in ly r e q u e s t t h a t th e C o m m is s i o n r e q u e s ts a c le a r f in a n c ia l
b r e a k d o w n o f th e s e fr o m t h e S A B C .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 2 4 y o u s a y

t h a t y o u c a n c o n f ir m th a t t h e e v e n ts d i d n o t s t a y w i th i n th e c o n tr a c t
b e c a u s e th e n t h e y s u d d e n ly e s c a l a te d i n c e r t a i n c a s e s a l m o s t d o u b l e d
a n d t h e n – w h e n t h is c a m e t o y o u r a t t e n t i o n o r w h e n y o u r e a li s e d t h a t ,
lo o k t h i s is n o l o n g e r w h a t w e h a d a g r e e d o n , w h a t s t e p s d i d y o u t h e n
take?
20

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

As I m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r I c o u l d n o t in t e r v e n e

o n t h a t e x c e p t t o a s k w h y t h e r e w e r e s o m a n y s u d d e n ly a n d I w a s
in f o r m e d th a t th e y w e r e c r i ti c a l .

M o r e a n d m o r e o f t h e m a j o r p la y e r s

w i t h i n G o v e r n m e n t w e r e w a n t in g t o p r e s e n t t h e ir s t o r i e s , n o t o n ly
G o v e r n m e n t , S O E ’s a s w e ll w e r e w a n ti n g t o b e g i v e n t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o
u s e t h e p l a t f o r m t o i n fo r m t h e p u b lic o f t h e ir w o r k .

Page 89 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 th a t

y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t a n o th e r a g r e e m e n t , a f t e r y o u h a d l e f t w a s
concluded?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s w i th T N A M e d i a .
Ye s .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t w a s o n , a c c o r d i n g t o y o u – w h a t is

t h e d a t e th a t y o u h i g h l i g h t th e r e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
10

Come again?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

In paragraph 26 when was that

concluded?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

O n o r a b o u t th e 2 0 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d th e n y o u d e a l w it h t h e r e n e w a l

o f th e c o n tr a c t a n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 3 0 y o u s a y th e p r e c e d i n g p a r a g r a p h
that

certain

i n f o r m a ti o n

was

brought

to

your

a t te n ti o n

by

th e

in v e s t i g a t o r s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e n c o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l C h a ir w h a t

y o u ’r e c o m m u n ic a ti n g i n p a r a g r a p h 3 0 ?
20

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I r e a l ly – a t n o s t a g e d u r i n g m y t e n u r e w a s

I in f o r m e d o r m a d e a w a r e o f t h e f a c t t h a t T N A M e d i a w a s in fa c t
charging

r a th e r

handsome

fees

from

the

various

State

owned

enterprises, I was never made aware.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , s o t h a t i s th e m c h a r g in g t h e o t h e r

S O E ’s fo r t h e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s ?

Page 90 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I n d e e d C h a i r a n d t h is h a d t o d o w i t h t h e

f a c t th a t , a s I i n i ti a l ly s ta t e d , t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s c o m p l e t e ly a r ms
le n g t h w e o n l y c a m e to g e t h e r a t t h e b r o a d c a s ti n g a n d th e n s e p a r a t e d .
A n y t h i n g e ls e t h a t t h e y d i d b e y o n d t h a t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e
S A B C a n d t h a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y s o m e w h e r e i n th e s t a t e m e n t I d o
m e n ti o n th a t th e S A B C c o u l d n o t b e h e l d li a b l e fo r a n y t h i n g th a t T N A
was involved in.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i n – fr o m

p a r a g r a p h 3 2 o n w a r d s t h e n y o u d e a l w i t h t h e d is tr i b u ti o n o f t h e
10

n e w s p a p e r s , t h a t is t h e N e w A g e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u j u s t t e s ti fy t o t h o s e

p a r a g r a p h s a n d a t w h a t p o i n t d i d y o u g e t i n v o lv e d a n d to w h a t e x t e n t
w e r e y o u i n v o l v e d i n th e d is t r i b u t io n o f t h e N e w A g e w it h in t h e S A B C ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I w a s n e v e r in v o l v e d w i th th e d is tr ib u ti o n o f

t h e n e w s p a p e r s a t a l l, I w a s n o t a w a r e o f a n y c o n tr a c tu a l a r r a n g e m e n t
b e t w e e n t h e n e w s p a p e r w in g o f T N A a n d t h e S A B C a n d s o I w a s q u i t e
s u r p r is e d t o f in d – s h o c k e d a c t u a ll y t o fi n d t h a t t h e S A B C h a d b e e n
paying for the newspapers to the amount of R930 873 and I found it
20

v e r y d i ff ic u l t to u n d e r s t a n d th a t b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t th e
n e w s p a p e r s w e r e b e i n g d is tr ib u t e d t o th e S A B C j u s t o n th e b a s i s o f t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e S A B C a n d th e T N A M e d i a w in g .

Th e T N A

M e d i a w in g w o u l d c a r r y s t o r i e s a b o u t t h e T N A b r e a k f a s t , s o i t m a d e
s e n s e t h a t c e r t a i n n e w s p a p e r s w o u ld b e d i s tr i b u t e d t o t h e S A B C s o t h e
S A B C c o u l d s e e h o w th e y w e r e b e in g r e p o r t e d o n a n d t h e r e w a s , a s fa r

Page 91 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
a s I k n e w, t h e r e w a s n o a g r e e m e n t f o r t h e e x c h a n g e o f m o n e y, s o I w a s
o n c e a g a i n t a k e n a b a c k w h e n I s a w th a t t h e S A B C w a s i n f a c t b u y i n g
the newspapers.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e d e l iv e r y o f th e n e w s p a p e r s

w o u ld th a t h a v e b e e n s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u n e g o ti a te d o n p r i o r t o y o u
s ig n in g th e c o n tr a c t o r a d v i s e d th a t i t a s p a r t o f th a t a g r e e m e n t?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

T h e n e w s p a p e r s h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i th t h e

b r o a d c a s t c o n tr a c t a t a ll , t h e y w e r e n o t i n c lu d e d i f t h e r e w a s a n y
n e g o ti a ti o n it h a d t o h a v e h a p p e n e d a t M r M o ts w e n i’s le v e l a n d
10

p r o b a b ly J i m m y M a t t h e w s a n d I w a s n e v e r in v o lv e d i n t h a t a n d I m u s t
s t a te t h a t w i t h i n t h e d e l e g a t io n a u t h o r i ty f r a m e w o r k a n d a m o u n t o f t h is
n a t u r e w o u l d n o t a t a l l r e q u ir e p e r m i s s io n fr o m m e f o r t h e e x p e n d it u r e
to be incurred.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

What was the threshold of matters that

h a d to b e r e f e r r e d t o a s th e G r o u p C E O ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

T h e y w e r e – I h a v e th is th ic k d o c u m e n t

w h ic h is t h e d e le g a ti o n o f a u th o r it y d o c u m e n t , I’ m g o i n g t o tr y a n d s e e
v e r y q u i c k l y w h e r e t h i s c o u ld b e d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Did it depend on what the subject matter was or it

w a s s i m p ly t h e a m o u n t ir r e s p e c tiv e o f … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

T h e t h r e s h o l d t h a t c o u ld b e e x p a n d e d f o r

in s t a n c e fo r a n a m o u n t o f t h is l e v e l i t c o u l d b e a p p r o v e d b y a p e r s o n a s
lo w a s s c a l e c o d e 3 0 0 a n d a s c a l e c o d e 3 0 0 i n d iv i d u a l w o u ld b e
s u p e r v i s o r y l e v e l , 1 2 5 is G e n e r a l M a n a g e r a n d t h e n a b o v e t h a t is
M e d i u m M a n a g e m e n t a n d s c a le c o d e 3 0 0 w o u ld b e s u p e r v is o r y le v e l .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d m a tt e r s th a t w o u l d c o m e t o y o u

f o r y o u r a p p r o v a l , c o u ld y o u j u s t g iv e u s th e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

M a tt e r s t h a t w o u ld c o m e t o m y a p p r o v a l

w o u ld b e s p e n d i n g a g a i n s t a p p r o v e d b u s i n e s s p l a n s f o r c o n te n t
a c q u is i ti o n i n g o r c o m m i s s io n i n g a n d th o s e w o u l d b e f o r s c a l e c o d e
11 0 A w h ic h w o u ld b e m y s e l f a n d s c a le c o d e 11 0 w h ic h w o u l d b e
M o ts w e n i a n d M r T L O l iv ie r ’s l e v e l a n d t h o s e w o u l d b e f o r a m o u n ts
a b o v e R 5 0 m il li o n .

So there was a very clear staggered amounts

a p p r o v a l fr a m e w o r k w h i c h w a s q u i te c a t e g o r ic i n h o w m u c h w h o c o u l d
10

s ig n fo r b u t I m u s t a ls o s t a t e C h a ir th a t i n c a s e s w h e r e t h e r e w a s g o i n g
t o b e a p u r c h a s e o r d e r i t h a d t o g o t h r o u g h a n d I w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t
t h e r e w a s a p u r c h a s e o r d e r f o r t h e p u r c h a s in g o f t h e s e n e w s p a p e r s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

In f a c t i f I m a y j u s t – t o c o n fir m t h e

e v i d e n c e th a t w a s r e c e i v e d y e s t e r d a y fr o m Yo l a n d e Va n B u u r e n s h e
m e n ti o n e d a f i g u r e o f R 9 9 1 6 7 1 . 8 9 b e i n g t h e t o ta l 2 0 1 8 / 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 6 –
fr o m 2 0 11 u p to 2 0 1 8 th a t ’s b a s ic a lly t h e f i g u r e t h a t s h e g a v e .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

2 0 11 u p to ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

Fr o m 2 0 11 u p t o 2 0 1 8 .
Oh okay so it was for over seven years.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s o v e r s e v e n y e a r s , y e s th a n k y o u .

C h a ir t h e r e ’s s o m e o t h e r – I w o u l d lik e t o t a k e t h e w i t n e s s t o d i ffe r e n t
m a t t e r s , t h e p a r li a m e n ta r y c o m m i t t e e d e a l in g s a n d e n g a g e m e n ts a n d
t h e ir fi n d i n g s a n d I’ d l ik e t o t a k e y o u t o s o m e o f t h e m a t te r t h a t t h e y
h a d r a is e d t h e r e i n .

I n o t ic e t h a t i t’s t i m e f o r th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t ,

m a y b e a d jo u r n a t t h is p o i n t?

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w m u c h m o r e t i m e d o y o u t h in k – h o w m u c h ti m e

d o y o u th i n k t h o s e o t h e r m a t te r s w il l t a k e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e y a r e j u s t r e l e v a n t fo r th e p u r p o s e s

o f m a k i n g s u r e th a t a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y w e a r e a b l e t o v e r i f y c e r t a i n
in f o r m a ti o n f r o m h e r, th e y s h o u l d n ’ t t a k e l o n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

A b o u t f if t e e n , t h ir ty m i n u te s o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I’ m n o t s u r e C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s a ls o

t h e m u l ti- c h o i c e a n d t h e D T T m a t t e r s – y e s , t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

N o t h a t’s fi n e . L e t m e ju s t a s k o n e o r t w o q u e s t io n s

a b o u t t h e n e w s p a p e r s . W e r e th e s e n e w s p a p e r s t h a t w e r e d e li v e r e d o n
a d a i ly b a s i s t o S A B C t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

C h a i r I’ m n o t q u i te s u r e w h e t h e r th e y w e r e

d e li v e r e d d a il y o r a s a n d w h e n t h e r e w a s a s p e c i f ic m e n ti o n o f t h e
S A B C , I r e a ll y a m n o t c e r ta i n o f t h a t , h o w e v e r, i f t h e y w e r e b e i n g p a id
f o r t h e n t h e y m u s t h a v e b e e n d e liv e r e d d a i ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d is i t t h e N e w A g e o r i t w a s … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I would assume.

The New Age.

New Age, yes so at a certain stage it did come to

y o u r a t t e n t i o n t h a t t h e N e w A g e w a s b e i n g d e li v e r e d to S A B C ?
MS LULAMA M OKHOBO:

Ye s a n d in f a c t it w o u l d b e p u t o n m y d e s k

s o I w a s a w a r e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

It was put on your desk but in terms of volumes did

y o u g e t to k n o w w h a t v o l u m e s y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th a t w e r e b e i n g

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
d e li v e r e d a n d w h e t h e r i t w a s j u s t t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s o f S A B C o r it w a s
S A B C t h r o u g h o u t t h e c o u n tr y ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

N o C h a ir I w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h e v o lu m e s

b u t th e y w o u ld b e p u t a t t h e t u r n s ti le s , t h e e n tr a n c e w h e r e t h e s t a ff
w o u ld g o i n a n d t h e y c o u l d p ic k u p a c o p y.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e w a y it w o r k e d w a s i t t h a t w h o e v e r d e l iv e r e d

t h e m w o u ld p u t t h e m s o m e w h e r e a n d s t a ff m e m b e r s o f S A B C , a s t h e y
c a m e in i f t h e y w a n t e d t o ta k e a c o p y th e y c o u l d ta k e a c o p y, is t h a t
r ig h t ?
10

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
CHAIRPERSON:
b u t i n it i a l ly

you

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s a n d y o u s a i d t h a t in i ti a l ly, m a y b e n o t i n i t ia ll y
thought

or

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g

was

that

these

n e w s p a p e r s w e r e n o t b e in g p a i d f o r b y th e S A B C , is t h a t r ig h t ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Ye s C h a ir, i f t h e r e w a s a n y p a y m e n t th a t

w a s b e i n g m a d e d u r i n g m y ti m e i t w a s c e r t a i n l y c o n c e a l e d f r o m m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o in i ti a l ly y o u t h o u g h t t h a t t h e y w e r e j u s t

g iv i n g t h e s e n e w s p a p e r s b e c a u s e o f th e r e l a ti o n s h i p th a t e x i s t e d w i t h
regard to the breakfast shows?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s b u t o f c o u r s e th a t w o u ld b e s tr a n g e w o u l d i t n o t ,

if t h e y w e r e j u s t g iv i n g n e w s p a p e r s w i t h o u t e x p e c t i n g p a y m e n t f o r th e m
e v e n i f t h e r e – e v e n i f it w a s b e c a u s e o f t h a t r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h r e g a r d t o
t h e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

W e ll C h a ir th e r e is , i n te le v is i o n la n g u a g e

w h a t is c a ll e d a b a r t e r d e a l w h i c h is w h e r e y o u g e t s o m e th in g b a c k i n

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
k in d fo r w h a t e v e r li t tl e b i t t h a t m a y b e h a s b e e n d o n e . I a s s u m e d t h e y
w e r e p a r t o f a b a r te r d e a l, o b v i o u s l y n o t t h e q u a n tu m o f t h e c o s t o f th e
n e w s p a p e r, o b v i o u s ly b e i n g m i n i s c u l e c o m p a r e d to w h a t w a s b e i n g p a i d
b y th e S A B C t o b e a b l e t o d o – p a y fo r t h is s t a ff a n d th e [i n d is t in c t]
e tc e t e r a to b e a b l e to d o t h e b r o a d c a s ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f it w a s ju s t a f e w c o p i e s , e v e n i f i t w a s d a il y

y o u w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t i t w a s p a r t o f t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

But once the volumes reached as certain level you

w o u ld n ’t t h in k th a t , w o u l d y o u , o n c e t h e v o l u m e s w e r e – i t w a s q u i t e a
lo t th a t w a s b e i n g d e l iv e r e d a n d n o t b e i n g p a i d f o r ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

C h a ir I m u s t s u b m i t t h a t , t h a t is n o t o n e o f

t h e t h in g s th a t I w o r r i e d a b o u t , t h a t I c o n c e r n e d m y s e l f w i t h b e c a u s e I
d i d n o t th in k t h e r e w a s a n y th in g u n t o w a r d f o r th e d e li v e r y o f th e
newspapers.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t a s y o u s a w t h e m d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e

t h a t it w a s b i g v o l u m e s t h a t w e r e b e in g d e liv e r e d o r t h a t y o u n e v e r s a w
f o r y o u r s e l f in t e r m s o f w h e r e th e y w e r e b e i n g p la c e d a n d s ta ff s a w
t h e m a s th e y c a m e i n , y o u n e v e r s a w w h a t t h e y v o lu m e s w e r e o r y o u
20

ju s t s a w th e s in g l e p a p e r th a t w o u l d b e p u t o n y o u r d e s k e a c h m o r n i n g ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I s a w s t a c k s o f p a p e r s a t t h e e n tr a n c e i n to

t h e o ff ic e b l o c k s a n d t h e n t h e r e w o u ld b e a c o p y f o r m e o n m y d e s k
t o g e th e r w i t h c o p i e s fr o m th e o t h e r n e w s p a p e r g r o u p s t h a t t h e S A B C
s u b s c r i b e d to .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d i t n e v e r s t r u c k m e t o p r o b e a n d fi n d

out whether we were paying or not paying because surely if we were
p a y i n g a n d i t w a s a b o v e b o a r d t h e n th a t i n fo r m a t i o n s h o u ld h a v e b e e n
c o n ta in e d i n t h e m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n ts t h a t w o u l d b e i s s u e d o n a
m o n th ly b a s is b u t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a l in e i t e m t h a t I s a w i n t h e n e w s
m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n ts t h a t s a id , T N A M e d i a n e w s p a p e r s , t h e r e w a s
n e v e r s u c h a l in e i t e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t i f t h e v o lu m e s w e r e

h i g h a n d o n e s a w t h a t i t lo o k s l ik e o n a d a i ly b a s i s th e r e ’s a b i g s t a c k
10

o f th e N e w A g e t h a t g e t s d e li v e r e d e v e r y d a y li k e t h a t, u n le s s s o m e t h i n g
s i m il a r w a s h a p p e n i n g w i t h o th e r n e w s p a p e r s , y o u k n o w, t h a t w o u l d
c a tc h o n e ’s a t t e n t io n to s a y, th is i s u n u s u a l p a r t ic u l a r ly i f a n y b o d y c a n
c o m e a n d j u s t t a k e t h e n e w s p a p e r s , th e r e ’s n o b o d y s a y i n g p a y o r
a n y th in g li k e t h a t a n d th a t it o u g h t t o s a y t o s o m e b o d y, I h o p e w e a r e
n o t p a y i n g fo r t h i s a n d m a y b e I w o u l d li k e t o k n o w i f w e a r e p a y i n g fo r
t h is o r s o m e t h i n g lik e th a t , is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u d o n ’ t th i n k o n e
w o u ld e x p e c t t o o c c u r ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

W e l l w h a t I u n d e r s to o d fr o m w h a t I w a s t o l d

w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e b e i n g d e l iv e r e d f o r f r e e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y a lr i g h t le t ’s ta k e th e a d jo u r n m e n t w e ’ ll

r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t tw o , w e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : A l l r is e
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e m a y p r o c e e d .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . Mr
C h a ir m a n I p l a c e d t h is a f t e r n o o n tw o m o r e v o l u m e s b e fo r e y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e o n e w o u ld b e t h e P a r l i a m e n t a r y

tr a n s c r ip t s w e d o n o t h a v e t o g o th r o u g h t h e m b u t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

But for the sake of the witness just to

s t a te w h a t – w h a t s h e n e e d s t o r e s p o n d to a n d a ls o I h a v e p la c e d b a c k
b e f o r e y o u C h a ir E x h ib i t 2 7 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

W h i c h d e a l s w i t h t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r ’s

R e p o r t o f 2 0 1 4 a n d la s tly I h a v e r e t u r n e d E x h i b i t 1 7 . 1 o f M r Th e k is o
b e c a u s e t h e r e i s r e f e r e n c e t o th is w i t n e s s in t h a t b u n d l e . 1 7 .1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k t h e l a s t p a r t o f o u r d is c u s s i o n Mr M o k h o b o I

w a n t e d t o j u s t s a y th a t a n d I m a y b e I d i d s a y it I h a v e fo r g o t te n t h a t
you have responded

th a t s e e in g a b i g v o lu m e s o r a s t a c k o f

n e w s p a p e r s o r a p a r ti c u la r n e w s p a p e r a lw a y s b e i n g d e li v e r e d t o th e –
20

t o th e i n s ti t u ti o n t h a t s h o u l d b e m a k i n g m o n e y w i t h t h o s e n e w s p a p e r s
in t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e i t w o u ld b e fr e e o r y o u th o u g h t it w o u l d b e
fr e e m a y h a v e b e e n s o m e t h in g th a t a ls o s h o u ld h a v e b e e n o f c o n c e r n .
To s a y w e d o h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e s e p e o p le t h a t a g r e e m e n t
p r o v i d e s f o r e v e r y th i n g a s f a r a s o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p is c o n c e r n e d w h y a r e
t h e y g iv i n g u s fr e e n e w s p a p e r s n o w ?

Yo u u n d e r s ta n d th a t – t h a t

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
p e r s p e c t iv e ?
MS LULAMA M OKHOBO:

I q u i te u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir. W h a t I s t a t e d

e a r l ie r w a s t h a t t h is c o u ld b e c o n s tr u e d a s a f o r m o f a b u t te r d e a l
w h e r e t h e r e is n o m o n e y e x c h a n g e b u t t h e n e w s p a p e r s w o u ld c o m e
w i t h c o n te n t a b o u t t h e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s .

W h i c h s h o u ld m e a n th a t t h e

SABC would have the right to see what had been written up about the
b r e a k f a s t s h o w s . A n d t h a t C h a ir I b e l ie v e v e r y s tr o n g l y s h o u ld n e v e r
h a v e b e e n s o m e t h i n g th a t th e S A B C w o u l d p a y f o r.

The SABC was

a lr e a d y e x p e n d i n g a l o t o f m o n e y t o c o v e r t h e b r o a d c a s t s . G e t ti n g t h e
10

n e w s p a p e r i n r e t u r n j u s t s o th e S A B C c a n s e e w h a t h a s b e e n c o v e r e d ,
w h a t w a s g o i n g o n f o r th o s e p e o p l e – I m e a n a l o t o f t h e s ta ff a t t h e
S A B C w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o s e e t h e b r e a k f a s ts th e m s e lv e s , t h e s h o w s
b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d b e b u s y a t t h a t ti m e .

B u t h a v in g t h e n e w s p a p e r

w o u ld k i n d o f g iv e t h e m a n i n d ic a ti o n o f w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d . A n d t h a t
w a s r e a l ly fr o m th a t p e r s p e c ti v e b u t I t h i n k p e r h a p s t h e p e o p le w h o d i d
d e c i d e t o e n t e r i n t o t h i s c o m m e r c i a l c o n tr a c t w o u l d h a v e to b e
in t e r r o g a t e d a s t o w h y t h e y d i d i t . B e c a u s e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n li t e r a ll y
a d d in g m o n e y – y o u r l a s t p e n n i e s t o a v e r y w e a l t h y p e r s o n a n d t h a t
d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e to m e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman. Ms Mokhobo can
I j u s t t a k e y o u t o j u s t a fe w d o c u m e n t w e d o n o t h a v e t o g o to t h e m b u t
ju s t t o p u t fir s t o f a ll I w o u ld li k e t o p u t it t o y o u t h e f in d in g s o f th e
P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r.

T h e – y o u a r e q u i te a w a r e o f th o s e b e c a u s e t h e

P a r li a m e n ta r y C o m m i t t e e d e a l t w i t h t h a t , a m I r ig h t ?

Page 99 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h a t r e l a t e d t o t h e i n c r e m e n t to

t h e s a la r y o f M r M o t s o e n e n g th e s e c o n d in c r e m e n t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d a t p a g e 2 6 8 t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r m a d e
t h e f i n d in g Ms L u la m a M o k h o b o t h e o u t g o i n g G C E O fo r h e r i m p r o p e r
t h a t d is c ip li n a r y s t e p s m u s t b e ta k e n f o r h e r i m p r o p e r c o n d u c t i n t h e
a p p r o v a l in t h e s a l a r y i n c r e m e n t o f M r M o t s o e n e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e n u m b e r is t h a t ?
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t – p a g e 2 6 8 C h a ir w h ic h w i ll b e in

Exhibit CC27.
CHAIRPERSON: CC27?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

2 7 th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

That is the

F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 R e p o r t o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w e l l I w a s l o o k i n g a t t h is P a r l ia m e n t a r y t r a n s c r i p ts
that is not the one.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is n o t, n o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ n o t s p e a k i n g i n to m ic r o p h o n e ]
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s . A t p a g e 2 6 8 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Yo u – th e n – t h o s e f in d in g s o f
t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r d i d s e r v e b e f o r e th e A d - h o c C o m m i t te e o f
P a r li a m e n t?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d i n th e tr a n s c r i p t s y o u w e r e a s k e d

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
e x t e n s iv e ly a b o u t t h e in c r e m e n t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u j u s t t e ll th e C h a i r b r ie f ly

b e c a u s e it w i ll b e c o m e r e l e v a n t i n a n o t h e r c o n t e x t la t e r in t h e e v id e n c e
b e f o r e th e S A B C a s to w h y y o u a p p r o v e d th e s e c o n d i n c r e m e n t o f M r
H l a u d i ’s s a l a r y.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir. Th e – w h e n I a r r iv e d a t t h e S A B C
I t h i n k I h a v e s a id i t b e f o r e t h e r e w a s a n o u t p o u r i n g o f a d o r a ti o n o n M r
M o ts o e n e n g . Th e r e w a s a b e l i e f th a t h e w a s d o i n g a n a m a z in g j o b a n d
10

t h a t y o u k n o w h e w a s n o t b e i n g p a i d e n o u g h e v e n a s a G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e
m e m b e r n o t a s a c ti n g C O O . A n d th e r e w a s a p a r i ty e x e r c is e t h a t w a s
b e i n g u n d e r t a k e n b y t h e S A B C t h r o u g h w h ic h p e o p l e w o u ld b e l o o k e d
a t fr o m th e ir s k i ll c o d e a n d t h e n b e g iv e n a n in c r e a s e i f i n t e r m s o f
t h e ir s k i ll c o d e th e y w e r e e a r n in g b e l o w p a r.
t h a t th e i n c r e a s e w a s a b o u t .

A n d t h a t w a s r e a l ly a ll

S o t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r c o m p l e te ly

m is u n d e r s t o o d t h a t a n d s h e t h o u g h t t h a t h e w a s g iv e n t h e i n c r e a s e a s
C O O a n d h e w a s n o t c e r t a i n l y n o t g iv e n t h e i n c r e a s e . A s t h e C h a i r m a y
k n o w S A B C ’s C O O s a l a r ie s a r e v e r y h i g h a n d th a t m o n e y t h a t w a s
a d d e d t o h is s a l a r y w a s n o w h e r e n e a r t h e s a l a r y o f a C O O . A n d w h a t
20

w a s v e r y s a d f o r m e w a s th a t i n t h a t m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e r e w a s n o
r e a l r o o m f o r m e t o c h a ll e n g e t h a t fi n a l f in d i n g . I h a d r e s p o n d e d to t h e
d r a f t fi n d i n g a n d e x p l a in e d m y s e lf o n t h a t d r a f t fi n d i n g b u t s o m e h o w it
was ignored.

S e c o n d ly i f i n d e e d I w a s t o b e d is c i p li n e d f o r h a v i n g

r a i s e d h is s a l a r y j u s t s o t h a t h e c o u ld b e o n t h e s a m e l e v e l a s o t h e r
G r o u p E x e c u ti v e s I a m q u i te s u r e t h a t t h e b o a r d i f i t d e c id e d t o e m b a r k

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o n a d i s c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s a g a in s t m e I a m q u i te s u r e t h e y w o u l d h a v e
t h r o w n i t o u t b e c a u s e t h is is a m a n t h a t t h e y w e r e v e r y h a p p y w i t h . J a
a n d t h e o t h e r th in g is t h a t it w a s a s s u m e d t h a t I h a d l e f t t h e S A B C
b e c a u s e o f t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r R e p o r t i t w a s c e r ta in ly n o t b e c a u s e o f
t h a t . M y d is c u s s i o n to l e a v e t h e S A B C b e g a n i n O c t o b e r a n d th a t w a s
a fe w m o n t h s b e f o r e th e P u b l ic R e p o r t w a s – t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r
R e p o r t w a s r e le a s e d .

I t w a s o n ly r e l e a s e d i n F e b r u a r y o n t h e s a m e

m o n th t h a t i n t e r m s o f m y n o t ic e p e r i o d m y n o tic e h a d c o m e t o a n e n d .
S o i t w a s ju s t a s h e e r c o i n c id e n c e t h a t s h e r e le a s e d i t a t t h a t t i m e .
10

A n d y e s I w o u l d h a v e s to o d fo r – I w o u l d h a v e s t o o d u p t o t h e
d is c i p l i n a r y e n q u ir y a n d h a d m y n a m e c l e a r e d t h e r e b u t it ju s t d id n o t
m a k e s e n s e a t t h a t p o in t w h e n I w a s le a v in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e le t u s g e t th e – l e t m e g e t t h e f u ll c o n te x t t o
t h is p a r t ic u l a r i s s u e . M r M o t s o e n e n g w a s r e c e i v i n g a c e r t a in s a l a r y f o r
t h e p o s i t io n h e h e l d a t th e ti m e . W a s h e s ti ll a c ti n g C O O a t th e ti m e o r
w a s h e a lr e a d y C O O ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : N o h e w a s s t il l a c ti n g C O O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s s t il l a c t i n g C O O .

20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : H e r e m a i n e d a c t in g C O O u n ti l I le f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t w a s o n ly a f te r I w a s g o n e th a t h e w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. I t h i n k j u s t ta l k m o r e t o th e is s u e th a n y o u
h a v e . I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d b e c a u s e y o u k n o w s o m e ti m e s o n e r e a d
a l l k i n d s o f t h i n g s i n t h e n e w s p a p e r s a n d I w o u l d r a t h e r h e a r e x a c tly

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t h e c o n te x t h e r e . H o w d i d th e w h o l e th i n g a r is e ? Fr o m w h a t y o u s a y i t
lo o k s li k e it w a s n o t j u s t h i m ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s l o o k i n g a t o t h e r p e o p le a s w e l l . S o I ju s t w a n t
t o g e t t h e f u l l c o n te x t . H o w d i d t h e is s u e a r is e ? W h o d i d i t a p p ly t o ?
W h a t w a s d o n e i n r e g a r d t o h i m ? Wa s t h e r e a n y t h i n g d o n e i n r e g a r d t o
o th e r p e o p l e w h o m a y h a v e b e e n in t h e s a m e c a t e g o r y ? A n d h o w m u c h
a r e w e ta lk in g a b o u t ? I j u s t w a n t t h e f u ll c o n t e x t .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : O h y e s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u d o r e m e m b e r.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

C h a ir e v e r y y e a r th e r e w o u ld b e a r e v i e w

p r o c e s s f o r s a l a r ie s . A n d th r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s p e o p le w h o w e r e b e i n g
u n d e r p a i d w o u l d b e i d e n ti f ie d . H e w a s o n e o f th o s e p e o p l e . H R w o u ld
t h e n i s s u e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w o u l d i s s u e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Human Resources.
CHAIRPERSON: Human Resources.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Is s u e a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n – th e y w o u ld
g iv e a s t a tu s o f t h e s a la r y l e v e l a n d g i v e a s e n s e o f w h a t o th e r p e o p l e
20

w i t h i n t h a t b a n d w e r e r e c e iv i n g a n d th e n d o a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n th a t
s a y s w e th i n k th is p e r s o n s h o u l d b e a t t h is l e v e l . T h i s p e r s o n s h o u ld
b e a t a n o th e r le v e l .

N o w i n M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s c a s e h is m a t t e r h a d to

b e a p p r o v e d b y t h e b o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n a n d h e d u ly a p p r o v e d i t b e c a u s e
he agreed…
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is t h e i n c r e a s e ?

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MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

Th e in c r e a s e – b e c a u s e h e a g r e e d th a t f o r

t h e k in d o f w o r k t h a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g w a s d o i n g h e c e r t a in ly d e s e r v e d
t h a t i n c r e a s e a n d h e s i g n e d o ff o n it a n d t h a t i s h o w it w a s p a i d .
T h e r e w e r e i n d e e d o t h e r p e o p le a t o t h e r l e v e ls w it h in t h e o r g a n is a ti o n
u n f o r t u n a t e ly I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m p r o p e r ly b u t p e r h a p s t h a t r e c o r d
c a n a ls o b e d r a w n fr o m t h e S A B C t o s e e . I t w a s c e r t a i n l y n o t j u s t h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o is t h is s o m e th i n g th a t h e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s

D e p a r t m e n t w o u l d d o a n n u a ll y ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d id i t j u s t c o m e b e c a u s e o f c e r t a i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A t t h e ti m e i t c a m e a n n u a ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t c a m e a n n u a ll y ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And they would look at maybe everybody or certain

c a t e g o r ie s o f p e o p le t h a t a t tr a c t e d t h e ir a tt e n ti o n in te r ms o f m a y b e
s a l a r y d is c r e p a n c i e s o r t h in g s lik e t h a t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t w e n t l a r g e ly a c c o r d in g to c a t e g o r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

The levels beneath management who

b e l o n g e d t o t h e b a r g a in i n g c o u n c i l t h e ir s a l a r ie s w e r e s e t i n a v e r y
s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d m a n n e r t h r o u g h th e b a r g a i n i n g c o u n c i l p r o c e s s a n d
t h e ir i n c r e a s e s w e r e a l s o d e t e r m i n e d th r o u g h t h e b a r g a in in g c o u n c il
process.

B u t t h e le v e ls fr o m m a n a g e m e n t a n d h i g h e r t h o s e w o u l d b e

s u b j e c t e d t o s c r u t i n y a s to w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e in d iv i d u a l w a s b e in g p a i d
a p p r o p r i a t e ly.

A n d y e s in m a n y i n s t a n c e s th e r e w o u l d i n f l u e n c e t h a t

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w o u ld c o m e fr o m h o w m u c h th e p e r s o n w a s c o n tr i b u t i n g t o th e
o r g a n i s a t io n .

I f t h e y w e r e v e r y h a r d w o r k in g a n d – w i t h o u t d o i n g a

f o r m a l s h a ll I s a y a v e r y f o r m a l , v e r y o b j e c ti v e p e r f o r m a n c e r e v i e w
o r g a n i s a t io n w i d e y o u h a d to r e ly o n t h e m a n a g e r s a y i n g t h i s p e r s o n is
d o i n g a g o o d j o b a n d y e s t h e y a r e b e in g u n d e r p a i d le t u s l o o k a t t h e ir
s a l a r y i n c r e a s e . E a c h o n e o f th e m w o u l d b r i n g a d i ff e r e n t m o t iv a ti o n .
T h e r e h a d t o b e a m o t iv a ti o n . A n d o n t h e b a s is o f t h a t m o tiv a ti o n th e n
H R w o u l d t h e n r e c o m m e n d a s a l a r y in c r e a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is m a y b e s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u a r e a b le to d e a l w i t h
10

o r y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b le t o d e a l w it h .

M a y b e it m i g h t b e a H u m a n

R e s o u r c e s k in d o f i s s u e b u t I – I w o u ld h a v e th o u g h t t h a t t h e r e c o u l d
b e a n in c r e a s e t h a t is g iv e n t h a t i s a t t a c h e d to t h e p o s i ti o n a s s u c h a n d
n o t t o th e in c u m b e n t to s a y a n y b o d y o c c u p y i n g th is p o s i t io n a s o f th is
y e a r w il l b e p a i d t h i s . A n d t h a t w h e n y o u s t a r t l o o k i n g – l o o k i n g a t h o w
w e ll a p a r tic u l a r i n c u m b e n t i s p e r f o r m i n g h is o r h e r d u t ie s t h a t – t h a t
m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g s e p a r a t e a n d t h a t i t i s d ir e c t e d a t t h e p e r s o n r a th e r
t h a n t h e p o s i ti o n a n d i n th a t c a s e t h a t is w h e n I w o u l d t h i n k o f
s o m e t h i n g lik e a p e r f o r m a n c e b o n u s . B e c a u s e t h e n t h a t a n s w e r s t o t h e
q u e s t io n w h e th e r a p a r ti c u l a r p e r s o n o r i n c u m b e n t is p e r f o r m i n g w e ll
20

s e p a r a t e fr o m w h a t a p e r s o n o c c u p y i n g th a t p o s i t io n is s u p p o s e d t o b e
p a i d ir r e s p e c ti v e o f w h a t t h e p e r f o r m a n c e i s . S A B C d i d n o t h a v e t h a t
k in d o f d is ti n c t io n ?
MS LULAMA M OKHOBO:

C h a ir is q u i t e r ig h t .

Th e – t h e s a la r y

in c r e a s e w a s b a s e d o n w h a t p e o p l e a t t h a t s k il l c o d e w e r e e a r n in g a n d
h e w a s f a r b e l o w th e m . S o h e h a d to b e b r o u g h t u p t o – t o m a tc h th o s e

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p e o p l e . Th e r e w a s n o p e r f o r m a n c e b o n u s p a y m e n t a p p r o v e d d u r in g m y
p e r i o d , d u r i n g m y ti m e a n d I w a s v e r y s t r i c t a b o u t t h a t . B a s e d o n t h e
f a c t t h a t w e w e r e s ti ll i n a v e r y p r e c a r i o u s fi n a n c i a l p o s i ti o n . Ye s t h e
S A B C w a s in s li g h t r e c o v e r y b u t t h e r e w e r e v e r y c l e a r t e r m s o f t h e
g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e t h a t t h e S A B C h a d r a is e d w h ic h N a ti o n a l
Tr e a s u r y h a d a p p r o v e d . A n d t h o s e t e r m s w e r e v e r y c a t e g o r i c i n s ta t in g
w h a t t h e S A B C c o u l d o r c o u ld n o t d o w i t h t h e m o n e y. A n d I w a s – I
w a s a s ti c k l e r f o r s t ic k in g t o th o s e p r e s c r i p ts th a t w e r e p r o v id e d b y
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y. I t w o u l d a ls o h a v e b e e n r e s p o n s i b l e t o tr y a n d g iv e
10

a n y b o d y a b o n u s w h e n t h e r e w a s t h i s m a s s i v e r e c o v e r y th a t t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n h a d to c o m e o u t o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s e e I r a is e t h a t b e c a u s e y o u m e n t io n e d th a t
e v e r y b o d y w a s s a y in g t h a t M r M o t s o e n e n g w a s d o i n g s o w e l l – w a s
performing so well he deserved an increase.

So I am saying I can

u n d e r s t a n d i f th a t a r is e s i n a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e y o u s e e k t o r e w a r d g o o d
performance.

But I do not expect that to be a factor where you are

s i m p l y s a y in g s o m e b o d y w h o i s d o in g t h i s j o b s h o u l d b e p a i d a t t h is
r a te le a v in g o u t t h e i n c u m b e n t o r w h o e v e r m a y b e o c c u p y i n g t h e
p o s i ti o n .
20

S o t h a t i s t h e b a c k g r o u n d to m y q u e s t io n to s a y w h y w o u l d

h is p e r fo r m a n c e b e r e l e v a n t t o w h e t h e r h e w a s g iv e n t h is in c r e a s e i f i t
w a s s i m p l y t o p u t h is l e v e l – t h e s a l a r y f o r h is p o s i t io n t o th e l e v e l
w h e r e i t s h o u ld b e w h e r e a n y b o d y c o m in g a f te r h i m w o u l d b e p a id a t
t h a t l e v e l ir r e s p e c ti v e o f h o w h e o r s h e p e r f o r m e d ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I r e a l ly d o t a k e y o u r p o i n t C h a ir. T h is c a m e
o u t fr o m h o w t h e c a s e w a s m o tiv a t e d a n d t h e a l m o s t o v e r w h e l m i n g

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p u s h f o r h i m t o g e t th e s a l a r y in c r e a s e a n d t h e p u s h w a s c o n fi r m e d b y
D o c to r N g u b a n e s o I a m p u t t in g th is a s y o u k n o w y e s t h e r e w a s th a t
le g i t i m a te r e a s o n w h ic h w a s to p u t h i m o n p a r b u t o n t o p o f t h a t t h e r e
w a s t h e r e a s o n i n g t h a t h e is a ls o o v e r a n d a b o v e t h e fa c t th a t h e is
u n d e r p a i d h e is a l s o d o i n g a n e x c e l le n t j o b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s f a r a s y o u r e c a ll t h e in c r e a s e t h a t h e g o t d i d i t
s i m p l y s e r v e th e p u r p o s e o f p u t ti n g t h e s a l a r y f o r a p e r s o n i n h is
p o s i ti o n s e r v i n g i n th a t p o s i t io n w h e r e i t w a s th o u g h t i t s h o u ld b e
ir r e s p e c t iv e o f t h e i d e n ti t y o r p e r fo r m a n c e o f t h e i n c u m b e n t o r w a s
10

t h e r e – w a s p a r t o f t h e i n c r e a s e t o a d d r e s s t h a t a n d t h e n a n o th e r p a r t
s o u g h t to a d d r e s s o r r e w a r d g o o d p e r f o r m a n c e o n h is p a r t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : C h a i r i t w a s – t h e i n c r e a s e w a s m a d e p u r e ly
t o b r in g h i m o n p a r w i t h p e o p l e o f th a t l e v e l.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

S o b a s e d o n o u r d is c u s s i o n l o o k in g a t i t

n o w h is p e r fo r m a n c e s h o u l d th e r e fo r e h a v e b e e n ir r e l e v a n t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s th a t i s tr u e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f o n e l o o k s a t i t n o w.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I n a s e n s e i t i s – i t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

L o o k th e r e w e r e – t h e r e w e r e s o m e d o u b t s

fr o m o th e r q u a r t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

B a s e d o n w h a t l a t e r c a m e o u t fr o m th e

in c u m b e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 107 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

T h e th i n g s t h a t h e d i d w h i c h w e r e q u i t e

i m p r o p e r a n d w h ic h th e n r a is e d a t th a t p o i n t s o m e r u m b l e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A b o u t w h e th e r o r n o t h e s h o u l d h a v e e v e n

b e e n g iv e n a s a l a r y in c r e a s e .

T h a t w a s o b v i o u s l y b a s e d o n p e o p le ’s

p e r c e p t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

B e c a u s e t h e y h a d e x p e r i e n c e d h i m i n th a t

p a r t ic u l a r w a y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

B u t t h e f a c t is h e w a s d e s e r v i n g o f a n

in c r e a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: The – what may be…
CHAIRPERSON:

Or rather – or rather he might not have been

d e s e r v i n g o f a n in c r e a s e h i m s e l f .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h i s p o s it i o n .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p o s i ti o n w a s …
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e p o s i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: May have been deserving of an increase.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h a n k y o u f o r t h a t . In d e e d h is p o s i t io n w a s

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
d e s e r v i n g o f t h e in c r e a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . A n d l a s tl y
b e f o r e P a r li a m e n t a n o t h e r is s u e t h a t w a s c a n v a s s e d – t h e o n e th i n g
that we have not spoken about is the date when you left the SABC.
W h e n d i d y o u a c t u a l ly r e s i g n f r o m t h e S A B C ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : S h o o I – I – I p u t in m y l e t t e r o f r e s ig n a t i o n I
t h i n k i t w a s in O c t o b e r a n d i n f a c t a t t h e b o a r d s t r a t e g y s e s s i o n w h ic h
w a s h e l d o n t h a t p a r tic u la r d a y I d o n o t h a v e th e e x a c t d a t e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h m o n t h ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W h ic h w a s h e l d o n th a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y. T h e
b o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h a t ti m e M s E l l e n Ts h a b a l a l a a n n o u n c e d t o t h e
b o a r d m y i n t e n ti o n t o l e a v e . A n d t h a t w a s in O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y e a r w a s th a t ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: That was 2013.
CHAIRPERSON: 2013 oh.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a y b e to a s s is t t h e

w i t n e s s t h e d a t e t h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n th e s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t f o r y o u r
la s t d a y a t t h e S A B C i s 2 8 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 . Is th a t th e c o r r e c t d a t e ?
20

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

W e l l th a t w a s b e c a u s e a f te r – y e s t h e 2 8

F e b r u a r y t h a t w a s – t h a t w a s m y d a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u r l a s t d a y. Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: It was my last day at SABC.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . I n P a r l ia m e n t a

lo t w a s d is c u s s e d a r o u n d t h e p a c k a g e t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d .

Page 109 of 173

Yo u r e c a ll

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
t h a t ? C h a ir o n – C h a ir d o e s n o t h a v e t o g o t o i t b u t t h e r e l e v a n t p a g e
is i n t h e E x h i b i t t h a t h a s g o t P a r l ia m e n t tr a n s c r ip t w h ic h w il l n o w b e
E x h i b i t b e c a u s e w e h a v e n o t – i n tr o d u c i n g i t fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t w i ll
be Exhibit 29.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w e – Ms M o k h o b o I a m s o r r y w e l e ft o u t in
o u r l a s t d is c u s s i o n s o m e t h i n g th a t I h a d m e n ti o n e d I w o u l d lik e t o
k n o w. A n d y o u m a y o r m a y n o t r e m e m b e r i t n a m e l y w h a t – h o w m u c h
was the increase that was given to him now – maybe you might be able
t o s a y i t w a s 1 0 % o f w h a t e v e r h e w a s e a r n i n g o r i s t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u
10

cannot remember?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : C h a ir i t w a s m u c h m o r e th a n 1 0 % .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: That I am certain of.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: It was not 10%.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : N o I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t a m o u n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s u r e a r r a n g e m e n t s c a n b e m a d e t o f in d s o m e

d o c u m e n ts t o
20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f t h e r e a r e – I a m s u r e th e r e w o u ld b e s o m e

d o c u m e n ts in t h e – a t S A B C .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: There should be Chair there should be.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t h in k t h e H R G r o u p E x e c u tiv e m a y b e a b l e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
t o p r o v id e t h e fi g u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: When he comes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir t h e p a g e s t h a t a r e
r e l e v a n t f o r t h i s p u r p o s e a r e i n t h e P a r li a m e n t a r y R e p o r t w h ic h I a s k
t h a t i t b e m a r k e d C C 2 9 th a t w o u ld b e fr o m p a g e 1 u n ti l p a g e 2 8 . T h is is
where

these

matters

are

d is c u s s e d

in

P a r li a m e n t

r e l a ti n g

to

M o ts o e n e n g r e la t in g to th e p a c k a g e o r s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t r e l a ti n g t o
10

M r M o k h o b o a n d a ls o m a t te r s r e l a ti n g b r ie f ly t o t h e M u l tic h o i c e c o n tr a c t
w h ic h is g o in g t o b e o n e o f t h e m a t te r s t h a t t h is s tr e a m is g o in g t o b e
d e a li n g w i t h .

B u t j u s t b e c a u s e a t t h a t p o i n t P a r l ia m e n t d id n o t h a v e

t h e s e d o c u m e n t s b e fo r e i t a n d a ls o f o r t h e r e c o r d f o r y o u t o c o n f ir m I
w o u ld lik e to r e fe r y o u to E x h i b i t C C 1 7 – 1 7 . 1 . Th is i s t h e b u n d le t h a t
M r T h e k is o h a d c o m p i l e d a n d I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 1 5 5 .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I a m n o t s u r e w h e r e t o f i n d it C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O h s o r r y it is i n – c o u l d y o u p le a s e

a s s is t / A
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k s o m e b o d y m u s t h e l p h e r.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y c o u l d y o u ju s t h e l p h e r. 1 7 . 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e h a s n o t d e a l t w i t h 1 7 .1
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s s o r r y. Ye s t h a n k y o u a t p a g e 1 5 5 .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Page?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Page 155.

a g r e e m e n t s ta r t s f r o m p a g e 1 5 4 .

Page 111 of 173

I t s ta r t s – t h e s e p a r a ti o n

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : S h o o t h e n u m b e r in g h e r e i s n o t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n to p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e d n u m b e r s o n t h e t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : O n th e to p – o h o k a y a n d i t i s p a g e 1 ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 154.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : 1 5 4 . Ye s I s e e w h e r e i t b e g in s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

I s t h a t t h e s e p a r a ti o n

agreement between you and the SABC?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d th e n th e a m o u n ts t h a t
y o u r e c e iv e d t h e y a p p e a r a t p a g e 1 5 5 .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h e r e w a s a lo t o f d e b a te a r o u n d h o w
m u c h y o u r e c e i v e d . W h a t w a s P a r l ia m e n t s i n f o r m a t io n a b o u t w h a t y o u
had received?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : P a r l ia m e n t w a s t o ta ll y m is i n f o r m e d a n d I a m
n o t s u r e w h a t t h e r e a s o n w a s a p a r t fr o m p r o b a b ly tr y in g to d a m a g e m y
r e p u t a ti o n .

P a r li a m e n t w a s g iv e n a fi g u r e o f b e t w e e n R 8 a n d R 11

m il li o n a n d i t w a s w i d e ly r e p o r te d i n t h e m e d i a r e p o r ts a n d I w a s
20

r id ic u l e d w h e n i n f a c t it w a s t o t a l ly u n t r u e . T h a t i s n o t t h e a m o u n t t h a t I
had received.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Could you then for the record and

a ls o t o s e t t h a t r e c o r d s t r a i g h t j u s t r e a d o u t t o th e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e
a m o u n ts a s r e fl e c t e d o n t h a t p a g e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

C h a ir I r e c e iv e d R 4 2 2 1 1 7 9 . 2 2 w h ic h w a s

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
e q u iv a l e n t t o t w e lv e m o n th s o f m y g r o s s c o s t to c o m p a n y a t t h e – w h ic h
w a s e q u iv a le n t to t h e t o ta l r e m u n e r a ti o n t h a t I w a s a lr e a d y e a r n in g a t
t h a t t i m e . T h e n I r e c e i v e d a fu r t h e r R 1 4 0 0 7 3 6 . 0 0 w h ic h w a s fo r t h e
r e s tr a i n t o f tr a d e a g r e e m e n t w h ic h e ff e c ti v e ly b a r r e d m e fr o m b e i n g
e m p l o y e d b y a n e n t i ty w i t h i n t h e s a m e in d u s tr y.

A n d th e r e w a s a

f u r th e r a c c r u a l o f a n n u a l le a v e w h ic h w a s R 3 9 5 6 5 2 . 5 1 i t s e e m s lik e a
lo t b u t I h a r d l y e v e r t o o k l e a v e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n la s t ly.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I a m s o r r y t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n r o u g h ly h o w m u c h

w h e n y o u a d d t h e – a ll t h e t h r e e f ig u r e s ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a t w a s b e f o r e ta x a m I c o r r e c t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s i t w a s b e f o r e t a x .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Those amounts – just.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: It was about R5.6
CHAIRPERSON:

I

thought

you

w o u ld

ju s t

remember

without

c a l c u l a ti n g .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : C h a ir i t w a s a lo n g ti m e a g o a n d t h e r e is a
lo t o f s t u ff th a t I h a v e b u r ie d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y w e ll .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: It was around R5.
CHAIRPERSON: About 6 – about 6?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A b o u t a l m o s t R 6 m il li o n y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t R 6 m ill i o n .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir.

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e n l a s tl y th e r e is s o m e t h i n g th a t

P a r li a m e n t d e a l t w i th i n i ts e n q u ir y w h ic h is s o m e t h i n g th a t is g o i n g t o
c o m e l a te r b u t t h e r e is a w i t n e s s a lr e a d y w h o is g o i n g t o – w h o h a s
g iv e n a s ta t e m e n t t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n t h a t is g o in g t o b e c a ll e d . A M r
R o y Kr u g e r.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Ms Norman we may – I just want to make
s u r e w e d o n o t l e a v e t h is w i t h o u t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h a n y t h i n g h a n g in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s e q u iv a l e n t t o t w e l v e m o n t h s

s a l a r y o r r e m u n e r a t i o n w h y w e r e y o u g iv e n th a t a m o u n t ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: The - the agreement was that I would be paid
f o r j u s t o n e y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e a g r e e m e n t w a s t h a t I w o u l d b e p a i d fo r
ju s t o n e y e a r. I t - i t w a s a n a m o u n t t h a t I s u p p o s e w o u l d b e e q u iv a l e n t
t o w h a t t h e C C M A w o u l d r e c o m m e n d to t h e e n ti ty o r i f - i f a n e m p lo y e e
w a s le a v in g b e fo r e c o m p l e ti n g t h e ir c o n tr a c t.

S o m e t h i n g lik e t h a t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u k n o w e a r li e r o n a n d I a s s u m e y o u m a y h a v e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
b e e n s i t ti n g th e r e .

W e h a d M r T h e k i s o d e a li n g w i t h p e o p l e w h o w e r e

p a i d c e r t a in m o n ie s / a m o u n ts a n d s o o n a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e - t h e
f o c u s s e e m s to l o o k a t - a t l e a s t s o m e e m p l o y e e s m a y h a v e b e e n p a i d
m o r e t h a n t h e y s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p a i d a n d t h e r e a s o n s o r m o t iv e s m a y
h a v e b e e n i ll e g i ti m a t e f o r d o i n g th a t .
S o y o u - y o u d id n o t d e a l o f c o u r s e w i th t h e q u e s t io n o f w h y
you left and that maybe relevant to why you were paid that amount but
if y o u h a d d e c i d e d to le a v e o n y o u r o w n w i t h o u t t h e r e b e i n g a n y d i s p u t e
o r a n y th in g . I k n o w o f n o r e a s o n w h y y o u o r a n y b o d y o n a fix e d te r m
10

c o n tr a c t w o u ld h a v e to b e p a id f o r a n y - a n y a m o u n t i f it w a s ju s t t h e ir
d e c is i o n t h a t t h e y w a n t t o l e a v e . S o t h a t i s w h y I a m - I a m a s k i n g .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

C h a i r a t t h a t ti m e th e r e w a s a l e v e l o f

d e s p e r a ti o n i n p a r tic u la r b y th e C h a ir o f th e B o a r d f o r m e t o g o
b e c a u s e I h a d c h a ll e n g e d a lo t o f h e r d e c i s io n s v e r y v i g o r o u s ly a n d s h e
w a s - s h e w a s v e r y a n g r y w i th m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: There are board minutes …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
20

T h a t s h o w h o w l o c k e d h o r n s o v e r th e - th e

M u l ti C h o ic e C o n t r a c t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : B e c a u s e I j u s t d id n o t a g r e e w i t h i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A t a l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

There were some clauses and I have

a n a ly s e d s o m e o f th e c la u s e s . I h a v e w r i t t e n t h e m d o w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A lt h o u g h I h a v e n o t g iv e n t h e m t o th e

evidence leader …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W h i c h w e r e c o m p l e te ly i n a p p r o p r ia t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
10

B u t t h e y - th e C h a ir o f th e B o a r d t h e n

d e c i d e d th a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g a n d M r O l iv i e r w h o w e r e b o th a c ti n g in
t h e ir c a p a c i ti e s i n c i d e n t a l ly s h o u l d g o a h e a d a n d s i g n th a t c o n t r a c t a n d
s h e w a s v e r y a b r a s iv e w it h m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I h a d t o t a k e a w e e k o ff - s l ig h tl y l e s s t h a n a
w e e k o ff to ta k e c a r e o f m y g r a n d d a u g h t e r w h o w a s g r a v e ly i ll .

So I

took emergency leave …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d in t h a t w e e k w h i le I w a s g o n e th e y t h e n
d e c i d e d t o m e e t w i t h M u l t iC h o i c e a n d q u ic k ly c o n c l u d e t h e c o n tr a c t …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d t h e n q u i c k ly a g r e e th a t th e c o n tr a c t

must be signed …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

B u t t h e - t h e p r o c e s s w a s fu n d a m e n t a l ly

fl a w e d .

Page 116 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I d i d n o t a g r e e w i th th e p r o c e s s i n t h e fi r s t

place.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

O f h o w t h e y a r r iv e d a t - a t Mr M o t s o e n e n g

a n d Mr O li v i e r s i g n i n g t h e c o n tr a c t b u t s e c o n d ly th e r e w e r e c l a u s e s
t h a t w e r e ju s t t o ta ll y i m p r o p e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h a t w e r e i n c lu d e d t h e r e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h a t w a s t h e f ir s t i n s t a n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

W h e r e w e l o c k e d h o r n s a n d i t w a s r e a ll y

u g ly. I t w a s v e r y, v e r y u g ly. Th e s e c o n d i n s t a n c e w a s w h e n t h e t h e n
M i n is t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s M r Yu n u s C a r r i m w a s g e t t in g fr u s tr a t e d
w i t h t h e r e b e in g n o in d u s tr y a g r e e m e n t o n t h e - th e s e t- t o p b o x e s t h a t
w e r e g o i n g t o b e u s e d f o r t h e d ig i ta l tr a n s f o r m a t io n o f th e c o u n tr y a n d
in t e r m s o f th e d i g it a l m ig r a t io n p o li c y o f 2 0 1 2 w h ic h w a s in f o r c e a t
t h a t ti m e it w a s i m p o r t a n t fo r t h o s e s e t- t o p b o x e s to h a v e a - a c o n tr o l
20

m e c h a n is m w h i c h w a s s e t t o d o a w h o l e l o t o f t h i n g s th a t w o u l d b e n e fi t
t h e p u b li c i n c lu d in g t h e a b i li ty f o r t h e p u b l ic t o a c c e s s m e s s a g i n g t o
c o n n e c t t o th e in t e r n e t a n d b e a b le t o d o w h a t e v e r th e y n e e d e d to d o
u s i n g th e s e t- t o p b o x e s w i t h o u t e v e n h a v i n g to g o a n d b u y a - a
c o m p u te r a n d - a n d t o m e a n d t o a w h o le l o t o f o t h e r p e o p l e t h a t w a s
what expanding the knowledge, economy to the poor was about.

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
T h e p o o r n e e d e d t o h a v e a c c e s s b u t i t w a s i m p o s s i b le f o r
them to - and - and the argument was that.

W e l l t h e r e is c e ll u l a r

t e l e p h o n e a n d h o w p e o p le a c c e s s c o n te n t v i a c e l lu l a r. I t i s e x tr e m e ly
e x p e n s iv e .

N o w t h o s e s e t- t o p b o x e s p a r ti c u l a r l y fo r t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t)

w e r e g o i n g to b e g i v e n f o r fr e e a n d i f t h e y h a d a s e t- t o p b o x w h i c h w a s
e n c r y p te d a n d w h ic h c o u l d e n a b l e c o n n e c t iv i ty t o a t e le p h o n e l i n e s o i t
w o u ld h a v e r e t u r n p a t h .
T h e n y o u w o u ld h a v e c i ti z e n r y i n th e m o s t f a r fl u n g p a r ts o f
t h is c o u n tr y. As l o n g a s th e y h a d e v e n a n o l d b l a c k a n d w h i t e b o x w h o
10

w o u ld b e a b l e t o a c c e s s G o v e r n m e n t d o c u m e n ts . T h e ir c h il d r e n w o u ld
b e a b l e t o a c c e s s c o n t e n t f o r t h e m t o - t o s t u d y.

I t is a - t h e - t h e

b e n e fi ts w e r e j u s t e n o r m o u s b u t a ll o f th a t w a s - w a s th r o w n o u t w h e n
t h e M u l ti C h o ic e C o n tr a c t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i th r e g a r d to t h e l a s t i s s u e a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t y o u
a n d M i n is t e r C a r r i m w e r e a t o p p o s i te e n d s …
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Right.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

N o C h a ir.

M r - M in is t e r C a r r i m a g r e e d

c o m p le t e l y w i t h th e d i g i t a l m i g r a ti o n p o li c y a s i t w a s p u b l is h e d in 2 0 0 8 .
20

H e a g r e e d w i t h i t a n d a s I s a id s o d i d a w h o le lo t o f u s . I a m - I a m
a lr e a d y o r ig in a lly tr a i n e d a s a n e d u c a ti o n is t .

So for me I saw a

m a s s i v e b e n e f i ts f o r th e c h il d r e n o f t h i s c o u n tr y a n d t h e a d u lt s a n d
a n y b o d y w h o n e e d e d t o b e i n fo r m e d .
S o h e w a s i n a g r e e m e n t w it h t h a t b u t h e w a s fr u s tr a t e d
b e c a u s e a f t e r t h e - t h e S A B C h a d s ig n e d t h e M u l ti C h o ic e C o n t r a c t t h e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
S A B C a n d t h e M u l t i C h o i c e C o n tr a c t e ff e c t iv e ly p r e s c r ib e d t o t h e S A B D
t h a t th e S A B C c o u l d n o t a c c e d e t o th e i n c lu s i o n o f e n c r y p t io n o n th e
s a i d t o p ic s a n d b y d o i n g t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e y b a s i c a ll y t h r e w o u t t h e e n tir e p l a n t h a t
the SABC had and other industry players …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Who saw the benefit …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : O f e n c r y p ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: They threw it out.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : N o w M i n i s t e r C a r r i m w a s c a u g h t b e t w e e n tw o
- t w o p a r t i e s w h o w e r e n o t a g r e e i n g w i th - w i th e a c h o t h e r.

Th e o n e

p a r t y o f w h i c h M u l ti C h o ic e w a s p a r t o f w a s s a y i n g t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o
e n c r y p ti o n . Th e r e s h o u l d b e a s i m p l e s e t- t o p b o x . A f t e r a ll p e o p l e w i ll
e v e n t u a l ly f in d t h e s e T V s e ts t h a t w o u l d h a v e t h e s e t h i n g s b u i lt o n t o
t h e m a n d t h is h a s s t il l n o t h a p p e n e d u p t o t o d a y.
20

Yo u s ti ll n e e d a d e c o d e r b o x fr o m M u l t iC h o ic e i n o r d e r to s e e
t h e ir s i g n a l . S o I a m n o t s u r e w h e r e t h e y w e r e c o m i n g fr o m t h e r e . T h e
o th e r a r g u m e n t w a s t h a t c e l l u l a r t e le p h o n e p e n e tr a ti o n w a s - w a s v e r y
h i g h a n d p e o p l e c o u l d a c c e s s d a t a a n d - a n d w h a t e v e r. T h e t h ir d m o s t
r id ic u l o u s n o t i o n w a s t h a t th e S A B C w o u l d w i lly - n il ly s w i tc h o ff p e o p l e
u s i n g t h e e n c r y p t io n t e c h n o l o g y a n d t h a t is a b s o l u t e ly n o t w h a t i t w a s

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
in t e n d e d f o r.
T h e S A B C w o u l d n e v e r d o t h a t a t le a s t n o t u n d e r m y w a tc h i f
I w a s s ti ll t h e r e w h e n t h i s w a s l a u n c h e d .

Then you had on the other

h a n d p e o p le w h o a g r e e d w i th m y p e r c e p t i o n s w i t h t h e v i e w s t h a t w e r e
e x p r e s s e d b y th e l a t e M in is t e r M a ts e p e - C a s a b u r r i w h e n s h e w r o t e t h e the - she launched the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p o l ic y ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:
10

T h e p o l ic y a n d m a n y o t h e r M i n is t e r s w h o

agreed with - with that approach.
b e t w e e n t h e tw o p a r ti e s .

S o Mi n is te r C a r r i m w a s c a u g h t

Th e o n e s tr o n g v o i c e s a y i n g n o , n o .

The

o th e r s tr o n g v o ic e s a y i n g y e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Now was …
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d s o h e b r o u g h t e v e r y b o d y to g e th e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e o t h e r v o i c e M s Ts h a b a la la t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f
the board.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e - th e M s Ts h a b a l a l a v o ic e w a s th a t th e r e
s h o u l d b e n o e n c r y p ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s a n d M u l t iC h o i c e - n o s h e w a s o n t h e s a m e s i d e

a s - a s M u l t iC h o i c e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

She

was

on

the

M u l ti C h o ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u w e r e o n …
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: I was on the other …
CHAIRPERSON: On the other side?

Page 120 of 173

same

side

as

-

as

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u k n o w t h a t M i n i s t e r C a r r i m w a s in a g r e e m e n t
with you?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: He was on the other side.
CHAIRPERSON: He was in agreement with you?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a n d h i m w e r e - w e r e o n th e s a m e s i d e o n t h is

is s u e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: We were on the same side.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : To g e t h e r w i t h h i s …
CHAIRPERSON: Deputy?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : H i s D e p u t y, h i s D G …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: And other people.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Everybody was in agreement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t - i t - t h a t i s s u e th e M u l ti C h o ic e a s w e ll a s t h is
- t h is d i g it a l - i t w a s c a ll e d d i g i ta l?

20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : D i g it a l m i g r a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D i g i t a l m ig r a t io n i s s o m e t h i n g

that the

C o m m i s s i o n - i s o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t i t is l o o k in g a t . I a m n o t s u r e
h o w f a r t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s a r e b u t i t i s l o o k i n g a t it a n d I - I a m a w a r e o f
- o f s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s b e c a u s e I s a t i n t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t in a
m a t t e r t h a t c a m e to t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t a t s o m e s t a g e a b o u t t h e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
is s u e o f th a t p o l ic y a n d a ll o f t h o s e c o u r t p a p e r s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld b e c o ll e c t e d . S o a n d - a n d I w o u l d u r g e y o u i f
the

i n v e s ti g a to r s

or

the

C o m m is s i o n

might

not

in f o r m a ti o n f r o m y o u in r e g a r d t o t h a t a s p e c t .

have

got

much

I w o u ld u r g e y o u i f

p o s s i b le t o g iv e t h e C o m m i s s io n a s m u c h i n fo r m a t i o n a s y o u k n o w …
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t c e r t a in ly w h e n t h e

m a t t e r c a m e b e f o r e t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t I c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d is
10

w h y i t w a s t a k i n g s o l o n g f o r G o v e r n m e n t to m a k e u p t h e ir m i n d o n e
w a y o r a n o th e r o n th e i s s u e a n d I th i n k I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r t h a t a t
s o m e s ta g e in t h e p u b lic m e d i a m a y b e i n t h e c o u r t p a p e r s I d o n o t - I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e - t h e r u l in g p a r t y o n i t s s id e w a s s a y in g w h a t
h a s b e e n d o n e i s n o t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e p o l ic y.
This might not have been at your time. It might have been at
- a t a d i ffe r e n t ti m e b u t i t w a s o n e o f t h o s e t h i n g s w h e r e - w h e r e y o u d o
n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y i t is t a k i n g s o lo n g t o i m p l e m e n t a n d i f t h e r e a r e
c h a l le n g e s w h y d o p e o p l e n o t j u s t m a k e u p t h e ir m in d . T h is is th e r i g h t
t h i n g . I f i t is t h e r i g h t t h in g w e a r e d o i n g i t . I f i t is n o t t h e r i g h t th in g

20

m a k e u p y o u r m i n d a n d m a k e it c l e a r w h e r e - w h e r e y o u s t a n d b u t y o u
s a y th a t - y o u - y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t y o u r d e p a r t u r e fr o m t h e S A B C w a s
n o t r e a l ly b e c a u s e y o u ju s t w a n t e d t o le a v e a n d t h e r e w a s n o p r o b l e m .
Yo u s a y th e r e w e r e - t h e r e w a s a p r o b l e m o r t h e r e w e r e s o m e
p r o b le m s b u t y o u s a y i n p a r t ic u l a r y o u a s t h e G r o u p C E O a n d t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a t t h e t i m e M s Ts h a b a l a l a y o u w e r e i n

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
d is a g r e e m e n t o n t h e is s u e o f - o n th is i s s u e o f d i g i t a l m i g r a t i o n a n d and

M u l t iC h o i c e .

Th e

M u l t iC h o ic e A g r e e m e n t

m a k in g

it almost

r e d u n d a n t t o l o o k a t - a t t h e d ig i ta l m i g r a t i o n o r b e in g in c o n s is t e n t w it h
t h e w h o le id e a .
Yo u k n o w a n d t h e tw o o f y o u w e r e - c o u l d n o t a g r e e o n t h a t
a n d s h e w a s in s is t e n t t h a t s h e w a n te d i t t o g o - t o h a p p e n .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

In

fact

C h a ir

she

-

she

i n s tr u c t e d

M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d M r O l iv i e r t o g o a h e a d a n d s i g n th e c o n tr a c t e v e n
t h o u g h t h e c o n tr a c t h a d n o t b e e n p r o c e s s e d a p p r o p r ia t e l y w i th in t h e
10

o r g a n i s a t io n . In t e r m s o f th e - th e d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

It

made

-

it

makes

a

very

clear

p r o n o u n c e m e n t o n t h is . I t s a y s i n p a g e 2 o f t h e a p p li c a b l e d e l e g a ti o n
o f a u th o r i ty f r a m e w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Paragraph 2.4. It says:
“ B o a r d C o m m i t t e e s a r e g e n e r a l ly c o n s t i t u te d w i th
p o w e r s o f r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o n ly.

However subject

t o c e r t a in s t a tu t o r y li m i t a ti o n s t h e b o a r d m a y in i ts
20

d is c r e ti o n d e l e g a te d e c is i o n m a k i n g a u t h o r it y in a n y
a r e a t o o n e o r m o r e o f t h e B o a r d C o m m i t te e s . ”
N o w w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d i s w h a t e v e r M r M o ts o e n e n g , h is
t e a m a n d M s Ts h a b a l a l a w e r e c o n v in c e d w a s t h e r i g h t a p p r o a c h f o r th e
S A B C s h o u ld h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t fo r s c r u ti n y. A t t h e v e r y l e a s t i t s h o u l d
h a v e s ta r t e d w i t h th e - t h e G r o u p E x e c u ti v e m e m b e r s s c r u t in is in g t h i s

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
in t e r m s o f th e c o r r e c t d u e p r o c e s s a n d o n c e t h e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e h a d
s a ti s f i e d t h e m s e l v e s t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t - M u lt i C h o i c e C o n tr a c t w a s fa ir.
It was good. It made sense or it was not good but say they
h a d s a i d i t w a s g o o d . I t m a d e s e n s e . T h e y w o u l d th e n h a v e t o r e f e r i t
t o th e Fi n a n c e I n v e s t m e n t a n d P r o c u r e m e n t S u b C o m m i t te e . T h a t S u b
C o m m i t t e e w o u l d d o t h e s a m e r i g o r o u s p r o c e s s a n d w i th i n t h a t p r o c e s s
C h a ir t h e r e w il l b e c r i ti c a l t h i n g s li k e r is k a s s e s s m e n t . Th e a b i li t y f o r
t h e S A B C t o d o w h a t i t s ti ll n e e d e d t o d o a s p e r i t s m a n d a te w i t h o r
w i t h o u t th e c o n t r a c t a n d - a n d t o b e p u t t h r o u g h a s tr e s s t e s t to s e e
10

w h e t h e r it i s - i t w a s tr u l y il le g i b le fo r s i g n in g o ff a n d o n c e t h e Fi n a n c e
I n v e s t m e n t a n d P r o c u r e m e n t S u b C o m m it t e e h a d d o n e th a t a n d i t
a g r e e d t h a t i t w a s f in e .
I t w o u l d th e n h a v e t o b e ta k e n t o t h e b o a r d . F o r t h e b o a r d t o
g iv e i t s f in a l s t a m p o f a p p r o v a l a n d o n c e t h e b o a r d h a d d o n e t h a t t h e n
t h e d o c u m e n t c o u l d g o o ff a n d b e s i g n e d w i t h M u lt i C h o ic e b u t it d i d n o t
h a p p e n t h a t w a y.

T h e l a s t d i s c u s s io n a t t h e F i n a n c e I n v e s t m e n t a n d

P r o c u r e m e n t S u b C o m m i t te e a n d a t t h a t ti m e i t w a s c h a ir e d b y
M r M a v u s o , Vu s u m u z i M a v u s o .
Wa s t h e r e p e r h a p s s a i d o k a y c a n t h is t h e n g o t o t h e n e x t
20

le v e l f o r d i s c u s s io n b u t w h e n t h e y c a m e o u t o f th a t m e e ti n g - n o w I w a s
n o t i n th a t m e e t i n g . T h a t i s w h e n I w a s o n l e a v e . W h e n th a t m e e t in g
e n d e d p e o p l e th e n r u s h e d o ff a n d d e c id e d t h a t th e r e w a s a p p r o v a l.
T h e y c o u ld g o a h e a d a n d s i g n . S o i t w a s e n t e r e d in t o u n la w f u l ly. J u s t
fr o m t h a t p e r s p e c t iv e fa il u r e t o a d h e r e t o p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: There was some rush to have it signed …

Page 124 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D u r in g t h e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e o n l e a v e ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Because I was an encumbrance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u w e r e s t a n d i n g in t h e w a y ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w o u ld i t b e - w o u l d i t r e fl e c t y o u r t h in k i n g to s a y
y o u w e r e p u s h e d o u t o f th e S A B C ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I n d e e d C h a ir.

I n fa c t a tt e m p ts to p u s h m e

o u t h a d b e e n g o i n g o n f o r q u i t e a w h il e .
10

I th i n k a t l e a s t t h r e e ti m e s

t h e r e w e r e r u m o u r s s w ir li n g a r o u n d t h e o r g a n is a t i o n t h a t I w a s g o in g t o
b e s u s p e n d e d o r w a s g o in g to b e fi r e d a n d t h e r e w e r e l o t s o f l ie s t h a t
w e r e b e i n g s a i d a b o u t m e . T h e m o s t r id ic u l o u s o n e s b e i n g t h a t I w a s a
s h a r e h o l d e r a t E T V.
N o w E T V t o g e t h e r w i t h - w a s - w a s o n th e s id e o f t h e s e t- u p
b o x c o n tr o l - t h e e n c r y p t io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d t h e r e f o r e b e c a u s e I w a s s a y in g y e s

e n c r y p ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d w e h a v i n g i n d u s tr y d i s c u s s io n s a r o u n d

t h e s e m a t t e r s . T h e y s a i d I w a s a s h a r e h o l d e r a t E T V a n d m y c h i ld r e n t w o c h i l d r e n - w e r e w o r k in g fo r E T V a n d t h e n p e o p le c o u l d g o t o t h a t
b o t t o m p i t o f l ie s to t a r n is h m y n a m e .
w a s s a i d I w a s l a z y.

So much was said.

I m e a n it

I w a s n o t d o i n g m y j o b e tc e t e r a a n d t h i n g s j u s t

got to head and …

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h r e g a r d to y o u r c h i ld r e n ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

It was not true.

Th e y w e r e - y o u h a d n o c h il d r e n

working at ETV?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t w a s a n a b s o l u t e u n tr u t h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

T h e r e w a s n e v e r a n a t te m p t b y m y c h il d r e n

t o l o o k f o r w o r k a t E T V.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o - s o i t w a s - w a s i t t h o s e t w o r e a s o n s a r o u n d
10

w h ic h y o u a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a t t h e t i m e c o u l d n o t
agree?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

There - there were further other reasons. I

lo c k e d h o r n s m a n y t i m e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W i th M r M o ts o e n e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h - j a . Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : H e u n d e r m i n e d m y a u t h o r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : M a n y, m a n y ti m e s …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d q u i t e a fe w ti m e s M s Ts h a b a l a l a g a v e

m e a d r e s s i n g d o w n in fr o n t o f my s t a ff a n d I c o u l d n e v e r u n d e r s ta n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

W h y s h e w o u l d th a t .

no decorum …

Page 126 of 173

T h e r e w a s a b s o l u te ly

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d t h e r e a s o n w a s q u i t e s i m p l y t h a t C h a ir I
w a s r e f u s i n g t o d o th in g s t h a t w e r e n o t a c c o r d i n g t o p o lic y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I w a s r e f u s in g t o d o th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d t h e r e f o r e t h e y h a d t o f i n d a w a y t o s u l ly
m y n a m e a s fa r a s p o s s i b l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I know for a fact that they canvassed the -

t h e a g r e e m e n t o f s o m e t o p p o li t ic ia n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h a t I s h o u l d - I s h o u ld g o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : S o a t a p o i n t w h e n I d e c i d e d I w a s g o i n g to
g o w a s w h e n t h i s f i n a l - i t w a s lik e a f in a l p u s h C h a ir w h e n t h e li e s
c a m e o u t a b o u t m e a n d my c h il d r e n a n d E T V a n d - a n d a l l o f t h a t .
T h a t i s w h e n I r e a lis e d t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e c a p a b l e o f
k il li n g m e b e c a u s e I ju s t d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d h o w a n y b o d y c o u l d h a v e s o
20

m u c h m a lic e a n d h a v in g l o c k e d h o r n s w it h th e C h a ir w e - w e b o t h
a g r e e d t h a t p e r h a p s i t w a s t i m e t h a t I s h o u l d g o a n d I d r a f te d a
m e m o r a n d u m t o h e r s ta t in g th a t I t h i n k it w a s t i m e fo r m e t o g o a n d I
h o p e I w il l b e q u ic k ly c o m p e n s a t e d b e c a u s e I w a s b e in g f o r c e d t o l e a v e
m y s e a t a t t h e t i m e w h e n I w a s n o t r e a d y t o th r o u g h t h e ir a c t i o n s a n d
b y t h e t i m e C h a ir - I t h i n k i t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t to n o t e t h a t - a n d t h i s is

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
s o m e t h i n g t h a t is n e v e r r e p o r te d o n .
That

under

my

l e a d e r s h ip

the

SABC

fi n a n c e s

became

e x tr e m e l y h e a l t h y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I h a d - I h a d e n s u r e d t h a t t h e a d v e r ti s i n g

in d u s tr y r e b u il t t h e ir b e li e f i n t h e S A B C a n d in d e e d th e y d i d .

So

a d v e r t is in g m o n e y s t a r te d c o m i n g in t o th e S A B C . I m a d e s u r e t h a t a l l
t h e l e a k in g t a p s

w e r e c lo s e d .

By leaking taps I mean

C h a ir

o p p o r t u n i ti e s to s p e n d m o n e y w i lf u lly f o r …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I m p r o p e r ly ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I m p r o p e r ly - w e r e c l o s e d a n d I d i d n o t

s u c c e e d o n a ll a s p e c ts b u t w h e r e t h in g s c a m e t o m y a tt e n ti o n t h a t
c o u l d p o t e n t ia ll y c o s t S A B C t o l o s e m o n e y I s i m p l y s a i d n o a n d
b e c a u s e o f t h a t t h e d i s l ik e f o r m e i n c r e a s e d p h e n o m e n a ll y a n d t h e
d is r e s p e c t w a s j u s t s o - s o i n te n s e .
Yo u c a n i m a g i n e b e i n g a G r o u p C E O a n d w a l k i n g d o w n t h e
c o r r i d o r a n d y o u k n o w t h a t y o u r s ta ff a r e t h i n k i n g w h a t e v e r t h e y a r e
t h i n k i n g o f y o u b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e h e a r d t h is o r t h e y w e r e p r e s e n t i n a
m e e ti n g w h e n t h i s w a s s a id . I t is n o t c o m f o r t a b l e a t a l l a n d I r e a li s e d
20

C h a ir t h a t i t w a s in d e e d ti m e f o r m e t o g o .
CHAIRPERSON: Well some of this might not have been part of - of - or
a t l e a s t m a y b e t h e d e t a i ls o f - o f w h a t y o u i n te n d e d d e a li n g w i t h b u t i t
is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t a n d t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y w h a te v e r
y o u m ig h t n o t b e a b l e to d e a l w i t h w h ic h s u r r o u n d s th a t i s s u e .
le d to y o u r d e p a r tu r e ? W h a t h a p p e n e d ?

Page 128 of 173

What

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
I t m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y fo r - f o r y o u t o c o m e b a c k i f n e e d b e
b e c a u s e i t i s - i t i s q u it e i m p o r ta n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h o s e th i n g s b e c a u s e
c e r t a i n l y th e r e h a s b e e n e v i d e n c e h e r e i n r e g a r d t o o t h e r S O E s a n d t o t o t h e f a c t th a t p e o p le w h o w e r e s t a n d i n g f o r w h a t is r ig h t a n d r e s is t in g
a n y a t t e m p ts t o d o w r o n g t h i n g s fo r s t a n d in g in t h e w a y o f p e o p le w h o
w a n t e d t o d o w r o n g th in g s w o u ld b e p u s h e d o u t i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r
a n d i t is i m p o r ta n t t o - f o r m e t o k n o w e v e r y t h i n g t h a t m i g h t m a k e m e
u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r y o u r s is d e fi n i t e l y th a t s i tu a ti o n b u t fr o m w h a t y o u
h a v e s a i d a n d I a m s t il l g o in g t o h e a r o t h e r w i tn e s s e s i t - i t m a y w e l l b e
10

t h a t s i tu a ti o n .
S o - b u t t o c o m e b a c k t o t h e a m o u n t th a t y o u w e r e p a i d - s o
it s e e m s fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t w h e n y o u w r o t e t o t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n a n d m a y b e a t ta c h e d t h e m e m o r a n d u m o r t h e a g r e e m e n t d r a f t a g r e e m e n t . Yo u - y o u s a i d y o u w e r e p r e p a r e d t o g o a n d y o u h o p e
t h a t y o u w o u l d b e c o m p e n s a t e d a p p r o p r i a t e ly. Is t h a t r ig h t?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir. I d i d n o t w r i t e th e m e m o r a n d u m
m y s e l f . S h e e n g a g e d t h e s e r v ic e s o f a n e x t e r n a l p a r ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W h o d r a f t e d t h e s e p a r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W i th t h a t a t a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y b u t w h o e v e r i t w a s - w a s d o in g s o o n y o u r
behalf or on behalf of both parties?

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

No

on

b e h a lf

of

-

on

behalf

of

th e

C h a ir p e r s o n ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o n b e h a l f o f th e C h a i r p e r s o n ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e h a d b e e n a d i s c u s s i o n b e t w e e n y o u a n d th e
C h a ir p e r s o n …
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e - th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h e p e r s o n w a s i n s tr u c t e d t o d r a f t i t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s i n d e e d C h a i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n t e r m s o f t h a t d is c u s s io n y o u h a d i n d ic a t e d t h a t
you were prepared to leave?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I indicated that I was - I was intending to

le a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

A n d h o w e v e r I w o u l d s t ic k t o m y s t a t u t o r y

o b li g a ti o n o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : S e r v i n g o u t n o ti c e fo r t h r e e m o n t h s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d t h e fu n n y t h i n g C h a ir is t h a t to w a r d s t h e
e n d o f m y p r o b a ti o n p e r i o d s h e w a n t e d m e t o e x t e n d a n d s t a y u n t il
a ft e r t h e e l e c t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : 2 0 1 4 w a s e le c t i o n y e a r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d s h e a s k e d m e t o s ta y o n u n t il a f te r t h e
e l e c ti o n s . A t t h a t p o i n t I - I j u s t t h o u g h t - y o u k n o w - I c a n n o t d o t h is
anymore.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I h a d r e a c h e d t h e e n d o f m y t e t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm, hm.

O k a y, b u t t h e - t h e a m o u n t t h a t y o u w e r e

g iv e n w h ic h I t h i n k y o u s a i d r e p r e s e n t e d o r th e a g r e e m e n t s a y s
r e p r e s e n t e d 1 2 m o n t h s r e m u n e r a t io n .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o c a m e u p w it h t h a t - t h a t a m o u n t ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: She came up with it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e c a m e u p w i th t h e a m o u n t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : To g e t h e r w i t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t h ir d p a r t y ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e th ir d p a r ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e th ir d p a r ty i s a w e ll- k n o w n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : L a w y e r o r n o t r e a lly ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Lawyer who …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W h o d e a ls a l o t w i t h S A B C s ta ff m a t t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, okay alright.

S o - s o t h e a m o u n t d id n o t c o m e

fr o m y o u ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It c a m e fr o m t h e ir s id e ?

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t c a m e fr o m t h e m . Fr o m t h e ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h e ir s i d e .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : C a lc u la t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d th e w a y t h e y e x p la in e d i t t o y o u w a s t h a t t h i s
is w h a t - t h e C C M A w o u l d n o r m a ll y a w a r d . Is th a t r i g h t?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e r e - w a s - w e r e y o u t o l d t h a t t h i s i s w h a t th e

C C M A w o u l d a w a r d if f o r e x a m p le y o u t o o k th e m t o - th e S A B C t o t h e
CCMA or …?
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s . T h e C C M A w o u l d a s - a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n s tr u c ti v e d i s m is s a l o r a n y t h in g l ik e t h a t?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : J a . T h e C C M A w o u ld a s - a l m o s t a s t a n d a r d
p r a c ti c e a w a r d o n e y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th e n y o u a c c e p t e d t h a t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e n I a c c e p te d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o in - i n a w a y w a s i t to y o u lik e a s e t tl e m e n t t o

m a k e s u r e t h a t a ft e r t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e n o f u r th e r li t ig a ti o n o r h o w d i d
20

y o u s e e it ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Tr u e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O r j u s t a s s o m e c o m p e n s a ti o n fo r th e f a c t t h a t y o u

w e r e n o t f in is h i n g y o u r t e r m ?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I h a d t o c l a i m c o m p e n s a t i o n if I w a s n o t

fi n i s h i n g m y te r m w o u ld h a v e b e e n t o o p a i d o u t th e r e m a in d e r o f m y

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
c o n tr a c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W h i c h w a s th r e e y e a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

B u t I w a s n o t w i ll in g to e n g a g e i n th a t - i n

t h a t fi g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : F o r th e s a k e o f m i n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e j u s t …
10

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I n te g r it y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I t h o u g h t w e ll - y o u k n o w - a n d - a n d a l s o

t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a - a r e s tr a in t o f tr a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I t m e a n t th a t m y fa m i ly a n d I w o u l d s u ffe r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Fo r t h e p e r i o d t h a t I w a s u n d e r t h e r e s tr a in t .
S o i t - it w a s j u s t f a ir t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO:

I s h o u ld b e c o m p e n s a t e d s o m e m o n e y f o r -

f o r n o t b e in g a ll o w e d t o w o r k w i t h i n t h e in d u s tr y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: That I have been in for …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A t t h a t p o in t it w a s m o r e th a n 2 0 y e a r s .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t - b u t t h e o n e th i n g y o u a r e c le a r a b o u t is th a t
y o u w e r e p u s h e d o u t?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir. I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d …
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : C e r ta in ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is - a l l o f t h is r e la t e d t o y o u b e i n g p u s h e d o u t ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. T h a n k y o u a n d - a n d y o u s a y y o u h a v e b e e n

p u s h e d o u t o f S A B C f o r s t a n d i n g fo r w h a t y o u b e l ie v e d w a s r i g h t a n d
10

r e fu s i n g t o b e p a r t y t o a n y th in g t h a t w a s w r o n g ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
purposes of the record.

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

Just for the

Yo u - y o u w o u ld r e c a ll t h a t a f t e r o u r

c o n s u l t a ti o n y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d b y m e th a t a n o th e r s t a t e m e n t w o u l d b e
r e q u ir e d ju s t o n t h e M u l t iC h o i c e … ?
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s a n d I …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : S t a r t e d w r i ti n g .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

Can I

ju s t - ju s t t o p la c e t h e e v id e n c e o f o n e w it n e s s t h a t i s g o i n g t o c o m e
a ft e r y o u - m a y b e s o m e t i m e n e x t w e e k w h o j u s t o n t h i s i s s u e o f
M u l ti C h o ic e - h is s t a te m e n t y o u d o n o t h a v e t o g o to i t . I w il l j u s t r e a d
o u t to y o u w h a t h e s a y s .

I t is E X H I B I T C C 2 0 to 2 4 C h a ir.

M r R o y K r u g e r. H e s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 4 6 :

Page 134 of 173

Th is is

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
“The DOC …”
I n - in f a c t i f I m a y s t a r t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 4 j u s t t o c o n fir m
what (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r e p e a t t h e p a g e n u m b e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 12 Chair of CC20 to 24.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e o n t h e s a m e b u n d le o r a d i ff e r e n t b u n d le ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o - n o t h i s i s t h e b u n d l e - s o r r y. It is th e
same bundle.

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . T h e s a m e b u n d l e t h a t h a s g o t t h is

w i t n e s s ’ s ta t e m e n t. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . Th e r ig h t - i t w il l b e u n d e r - h is
10

s t a te m e n t i s u n d e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Divider number 20.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I h a v e g o t
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e g o t i t a n d w h a t is t h e p a g e n u m b e r ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e p a g e n u m b e r i s p a g e n u m b e r 1 2 . Ar e
you there?
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: No, I do …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I w i ll - I w il l j u s t r e a d o u t to y o u .

20

M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s m a ’a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e is t a l k i n g a b o u t th e v e r y is s u e t h a t y o u
a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w it h i n y o u r o t h e r s t a t e m e n t - t h e M u l t iC h o i c e is s u e t h e s e t- t o p b o x e s b u t th is i s w h a t h e s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 4 4 .
“ M i n i s t e r Yu n u s C a r r i m s e t u p a f o r u m t o tr y a n d g e t
a l l p a r ti e s t o a g r e e t o u s i n g a S T B C o n tr o l S y s t e m

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
o r c o m e t o a c o n s e n s u s a s to h o w t o r u n t h e S A D D T
Network

a c c o r d in g

to

th e

e x is ti n g

SA

P o li c y

Document.”
45:
“ M u l ti C h o ic e a n d th e s u p p o r te d b y M r M o ts o e n e n g
o p p o s e d a ll s u g g e s t io n s o f S T B C o n tr o l in th e D D T
Network.”
46:
“ T h e D O C r e c e iv e d l e t te r s o f s u p p o r t a n d g o a h e a d
10

o n t h e u s e o f t h e S E N T E C H S T B C o n tr o l S y s t e m
fr o m b o t h th e th e n G C E O M s L u l a m a M o k h o b o a n d
t h e n C h a i r m a n M s E ll e n Ts h a b a l a l a . ”
T h a t is w h a t h e s a y s .

S o I ju s t w a n t e d to p u t t o y o u th a t

w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d th a t y o u w e r e i n s u p p o r t b u t th e n h e a ls o s a y s t h a t
M s Ts h a b a l a l a w a s a ls o i n s u p p o r t o f - o f t h a t .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s C h a ir. Ve r y, v e r y s tr a n g e ly w e h a d m a d e
t h o r o u g h p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o t h e b o a r d o n t h e D D T p o s i ti o n o f t h e S A B C
w h ic h i n c l u d e d t h e s e t- to p b o x c o n tr o l a n d a ll t h e a r g u m e n ts r e g a r d i n g
t h e b e n e fi ts f o r th e c o u n tr y.
20

N o t f o r th e S A B C f o r t h e p u b l ic a n d th e

b o a r d w a s h a p p y a n d a p p r o v e d th a t p o lic y p o s i t io n a n d o n t h a t b a s is
M s Ts h a b a l a l a th e n w r o t e a n d w e c o - s ig n e d t h a t l e t t e r.
T h e n s u d d e n l y I a m n o t s u r e w h a t t h e d a t e - w h a t th e d a t e i s
o n t h a t le t t e r. I t is - i t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t t o r e c o g n i s e t h e d a t e b e c a u s e
t h e n s u d d e n ly s h e w r o te a s u b s e q u e n t l e t t e r t o Mr C a r r i m a n d I - I d o
n o t h a v e a c o p y o f t h a t l e t t e r b u t I r e m e m b e r v i v i d l y a n d i n t h a t l e tt e r

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
s h e c a p it u la t e d a n d s a i d th e S A B C w a s n o t g o i n g t o s u p p o r t t h e s e t- t o p
b o x c o n tr o l .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Now what I cannot quite recall was how that
w a s s y n c h r o n is e d w i th t h e s i g n i n g o f t h e M u l ti C h o ic e C o n tr a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I - I c a n n o t q u i t e r e c a ll th a t . S o i t w o u l d b e
10

very good to see …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h e d a t e s o f th e l e t te r b e c a u s e t h e n w e c a n
w o r k i t b a c k to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : W h e n t h e M u l ti C h o ic e c o n tr a c t w a s s ig n e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o a ll o f t h i n g s w i ll b e …

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W i ll b e d e a lt …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Q u i t e i m p o r ta n t to p u r s u e a n d a ll …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d w h a te v e r k n o w le d g e a n d

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u h a v e p l e a s e g iv e - g iv e i t t o t h e C o m m i s s io n
because …

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : I s h a ll d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t . M y r e c o l l e c ti o n is t h a t th e r e w a s
a l o t o f m o n e y th a t w a s in v o lv e d in - i n th a t w h o l e t h in g a n d t h a t i t t o o k
s o m a n y y e a r s . I m e a n u p to n o w …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k s o m e t i m e t h is y e a r t h e r e w a s s o m e th i n g i n t h e
n e w s p a p e r. I d o n o t k n o w w h a t d e v e lo p m e n t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: About them.
10

MS LULAMA MOKHOBO: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n f a c t C h a ir w e w il l s h o w - w e w i ll g iv e w e w ill h a v e a w i t n e s s t h a t i s g o i n g t o t a lk t o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To d e a l w it h t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d w i ll d e m o n s tr a t e h o w t h o s e b o x e s a r e
ju s t ly i n g s o m e w h e r e i n s o m e w a r e h o u s e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W i th o u t b e i n g d e liv e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o th a t is t h e e v i d e n c e th a t w e a r e g o i n g

20

to lead next week.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. No …
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d y e t v a s t a m o u n ts o f m o n e y w e r e p a i d f o r
that.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

I th in k t h e r e w a s s o m e th i n g in t h e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
n e w s p a p e r s o m e ti m e t h i s y e a r a n d I th in k I - I a s k e d M r P r e to r i u s a n d
M r N o m b e m b e t o t a k e n o te a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t i t is p u r s u e d b e c a u s e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s s o m e t h i n g lik e t h e r e l y i n g s o m e w h e r e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And nothing is being done …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W e w il l … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e r e m o n e y is b e i n g l o s t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s .

T h e in v e s t ig a t o r s h a v e g o t a ll t h a t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i ll s h o w it t o y o u n e x t w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Thank you.
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : A n d t h o s e C h a i r w e r e s e t- t o p b o x e s w i t h o u t
e n c r y p ti o n .

S o i f t h e r e w a s th is e x c it e m e n t a b o u t d i s tr i b u t o r s e t- t o p

b o x w i t h o u t e n c r y p t i o n w h y w e r e t h e y n o t d i s tr i b u t e d .

I do not

understand.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o , t h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Thank

you

very

much

M r C h a ir m a n t h a t i s f o r n o w t h e e v id e n c e f r o m t h i s w it n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ms Mokhobo.

Page 139 of 173

C h a ir m a n .

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th e r e i s a n o t h e r s t a te m e n t t h a t
y o u h a d a lr e a d y s t a r t e d w o r k in g o n .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : Ye s I h a v e s t a r t e d w o r k in g o n it C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i n - y o u - y o u w i ll p r o b a b ly m a y b e a s k e d t o
come back at some stage.

Ar r a n g e m e n ts w il l b e m a d e b u t th a n k y o u

v e r y m u c h fo r c o m in g t o s h a r e y o u r k n o w l e d g e w i t h - w i t h u s a b o u t
t h e s e is s u e s . F o r n o w y o u a r e e x c u s e d .
M S L U L A M A M O K H O B O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

M r C h a ir m a n m a y I a s k fo r le a v e t o c h a n g e s e a t s a n d th a t m y l e a r n e d
fr i e n d M s R a s i v h e ts h e l e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C a n t a k e o v e r th e n e x t w it n e s s ?
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

How - how mu ch time?

1 0 m i n u te s , fiv e

minutes?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir th e o n ly - fiv e m i n u t e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fiv e m i n u t e s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l a d jo u r n fo r f iv e m i n u t e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a r e y o u r e a d y ?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

W e a r e i n d e e d C h a ir, w e a r e r e a d y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

C h a ir b e f o r e y o u , y o u w i ll h a v e t w o

fi le s , t h e f ir s t fi le b e i n g C C 5 2 C 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s t h e o n e I h a v e b e e n h a v i n g .
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Ye s i n d e e d s o C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

A n d t h e s e c o n d o n e is C C 2 5 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

I t is a s m a ll p r e s e n t a t i o n fi l e .

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

C h a ir t o d a y w e h a v e a w i tn e s s

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e w e a d m it t e d t h e o n e f o r – C C 2 5 ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:
20

N o C h a ir w e h a v e n ’t a d m i t t e d C C 2 5 a s

yet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t u s t o a d m i t it w h e n y o u r e f e r to i t?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH EL:

Ye s i n d e e d , w e c a n a d m i t i t n o w a s –

b y th e C h a ir ’s d ir e c t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( m ic r o p h o n e o ff) t h e fi l e c o n t a i n i n g t h e s t a te m e n ts o f
– no I think we're D, now I see it says statements.

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

O h y e s w e d i d , s o r r y C h a ir, m y m is t a k e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e m u c h y o u n g e r th a n m e , y o u s h o u l d n o t f o r g e t
s o e a s i ly.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

I s h o u ld n ’ t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , y e s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t o d a y ’s w i tn e s s is M r

K r i g e , h e fo r m s p a r t o f t h e w e l l- k n o w n S A B C 8 , j u s t to b r in g t o t h e
C h a ir ’s a t te n ti o n th a t Mr K r i g e h a s a fl ig h t to c a t c h la t e r th is a ft e r n o o n ,
s o i f w e h a v e n o t fi n i s h e d w i th M r K r i g e ’s e v i d e n c e b y f o u r o ’ c l o c k if
10

t h e C h a ir w o u l d j u s t a p p r o v e f o r u s ju s t t o g o ju s t a l it t le b it a f t e r fo u r
o ’c l o c k , th a t w o u l d b e m u c h a p p r e c i a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o t h a t’s f i n e . C a n w e s w e a r t h is o n e in n o w ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Ye s , m a y t h e w i t n e s s b e s w o r n i n ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , a d m in is t e r th e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n .
REGISTRAR:

P l e a s e s t a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?

MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:
REGISTRAR:

Jakob Daniel Krige.

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th m a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:
20

No.

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u s o le m n ly a ff ir m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w il l g i v e
s h a l l b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o le tr u th a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o r a is e
y o u r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y I tr u ly a ffir m ? .
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

I tr u ly a ffi r m .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, yes you may proceed.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH EL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 142 of 173

Mr Krige can you

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
p l e a s e t u r n , i f y o u h a v e n o t o v e r a l r e a d y t o fo l d e r C C 1 2 in th e f il e , o n
p a g e o n e w h a t d o c u m e n t is th a t ?

O n t h e fir s t p a g e , y o u w il l s e e t h e

p a g e n u m b e r s a r e w r i t te n i n r e d o n y o u r t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

J a , i t i s my a ffi d a v i t .
A n d w il l y o u p le a s e tu r n to p a g e 9 o f

that document.
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Ye s .
I s t h a t y o u r s i g n a tu r e i n th e m i d d l e o f

the page?
10

MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

Ye s t h a t i s m y s i g n a t u r e .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

A n d y o u d e p o s e d to t h i s a ff i d a v i t o n t h e

12th of August 2019?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Ja.
Mr Krige you have also stated that you

d o w a n t t o m a k e a c o r r e c t io n i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

Ja, on point number 14 there was a

m is t a k e s l ip p in g i n s a y i n g t h a t M r M a t t h e w s is t h e C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l
O ff ic e r b u t h e i n fa c t w a s t h e A c t i n g C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

Did you say paragraph 14?

Oh yes, ja, I can see.

Yo u w i ll a r r a n g e f o r a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Ye s C h a ir, I h a v e a lr e a d y h a d a

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th M r Kr ig e a b o u t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, j a .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 143 of 173

Other than that Mr

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
K r i g e e v e r y t h in g i s tr u e a n d c o r r e c t o n th e a ffi d a v i t ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Ja.

ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHEL:

M r K r i g e w h e r e a r e y o u c u r r e n tly

employed?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

I r e t ir e d o n th e 3 1 s t o f M a y fr o m t h e

SABC.
ADV

MPHO

RASIVHETSHEL:

And

before

being

e m p lo y e d

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h is y e a r ?
10

MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Say again?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h is y e a r ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , o n t h e 3 1 s t o f M a y I r e t ir e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L : A n d M r K r i g e b e fo r e y o u r r e t ir e m e n t o n
t h e 3 1 s t o f M a y w h e r e w e r e y o u , h o w lo n g w e r e e m p l o y e d b y t h e S A B C ,
ju s t g i v e u s j u s t a s h o r t b a c k g r o u n d o f y o u r c a r e e r ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

I h a v e b e e n e m p lo y e d 1 9 9 0 a t t h e

S A B C , f i v e y e a r s a s a f ie ld r e p o r t e r, s e v e n y e a r s a s a s e n io r p r o d u c e r
a n d t h e n t h e la s t 1 5 y e a r s I w a s th e E x e c u tiv e P r o d u c e r o f t h e C u r r e n t
20

A ff a ir s S h o w, s h o w s o f R S G , th e A fr ik a a n s R a d i o S t a ti o n .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

And on paragraph 3 Mr Krige you were

a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n .

C a n y o u ju s t

e l a b o r a t e o n t o t h e p u r p o s e a s t o w h y t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s a p p r o a c h e d
you?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Ja, I was a part of a group called by the

Page 144 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
m e d i a th e S A B C 8 a f t e r w e h a v e b e e n d is m is s e d b y t h e S A B C i n 2 0 1 6
a n d a s f a r a s I u n d e r s t a n d I w a s a p p r o a c h e d t o e x p la in t h e p r o c e s s a n d
w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t s ta g e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

A n d in p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u h i g h li g h t t h e

s t a r t o f t h e e d i t o r i a l in t e r f e r e n c e .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Ye s .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Fr o m y o u r l in e m a n a g e r s , c a n y o u t a lk

a b o u t y o u k n o w w h e n t h is e d i t o r i a l in t e r f e r e n c e c o m m e n c e d ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:
10

Ye s , t h e r e w a s a l w a y s a s o r t o f e d i to r i a l

in t e r fe r e n c e b u t o n e o f t h e m o s t p r o f o u n d i n s ta n c e s w a s o n 5 t h
F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 w h e n t h e A c ti n g H e a d o f N e w s a t t h a t s t a g e S e b o l e l o
D i t lh a k a n y a n e , c a m e i n t o m y o ffi c e a n d i n f o r m e d m e t h a t w e c o u l d n o t
r e p o r t o n a n y o f th e a c t iv it i e s o f t h e E F F, t h e Ec o n o mi c Fr e e d o m Fr o n t
p a r t y a t th a t s t a g e , a n d w h e n I a s k e d h e r w h y s h e s a i d i t w a s a n o r d e r
fr o m t h e 2 7 t h fl o o r, a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t i t w a s c o m i n g fr o m
t h e f o r m e r C E O M r M o t s h l a l e M o t s o e n e n g , w h ic h w a s s tr a n g e b e c a u s e
h e w a s n o t t h e e d i to r i n c h i e f a n d h e h a d n o t h i n g to d o w i t h n e w s , s o I
c o u l d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h e i n s tr u c ti o n a n d I e x p l a i n e d to h e r th a t i t w a s
n o t p o s s i b le to i g n o r e a n y p o l i tic a l p a r ty, i t w a s j u s t b e f o r e a n e l e c t io n

20

p e r i o d a n d s h e s a i d w e h a d n o c h o i c e b e c a u s e i t w a s a d ir e c t iv e fr o m
t h e to p a n d I t o ld h e r t h a t w e w il l g o o n b r o a d c a s ti n g n e w s a n d n o t
ig n o r e t h e E F F.
Te n m in u te s l a te r I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m t h e S e c r e t a r y o f M r
J i m i M a t t h e w s w h o w a s t h e f o r m e r H e a d o f N e w s a t th a t s t a g e , t h e
H e a d o f N e w s a t t h a t s t a g e , h e r e q u e s t e d m e to c o m e t o h is o ffi c e ,

Page 145 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
w h e r e i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f M s D i t lh a k a n y a n e , g a v e m e a s p e e c h a b o u t
not conforming to the rest of the SABC and accused my team of
t h i n k i n g t h a t th e y w e r e a n i s l a n d o n t h e ir o w n . H e p r o c e e d e d t o t e l l m e
t h a t I h a v e t o o b e y a ll i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m S e b o l e l o D it l h a k a n y a n e o n
w h ic h I r e s p o n d e d t h a t i f s h e g i v e s m e i n s tr u c ti o n I w i ll l is te n t o i t, a n d
e v a l u a t e it a n d t h e n a c t a c c o r d i n g ly, i t d e p e n d s o n w h a t t h e i n s tr u c t io n
is . J a , t h a t w a s w h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e .
W h a t h a p p e n e d a ls o w a s t h a t o n th e s a m e y e a r i n D e c e m b e r
M r M o t s o e n e n g a p p o in t e d M s D i tl h a k a n y a n e i n a p e r m a n e n t p o s i t io n a s
10

H e a d o f N e w s , M r .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, I ’ m s o r r y M r K r i g e , p le a s e f in is h t h e s to r y

a b o u t t h a t d is c u s s i o n o n t h e 2 7 t h , w a s i t t h e 2 7 t h f lo o r ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , t h a t c o m e s l a t e r ja .

J a , b u t I th in k a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u , t h e p r o g r a m w a s

a l lo w e d t o b e a ir e d w h a t y o u w a n te d t o a ir o n T V a n d t h e y w e r e s a y in g
n o d o n ’ t, I w a n t to k n o w u l ti m a t e l y w h a t h a p p e n e d t o i t?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Ja, what happened was that there was

a n o u tc r y i n t h e m e d i a a f t e r it b e c a m e k n o w n t h a t t h e S A B C d i d n o t
w a n t to b r o a d c a s t a n y E F F s to r i e s , a n d th e n t h e n e x t d a y o r t h e n e x t –
20

w i t h i n t w o d a y s th e S A B C p u t o u t a s ta t e m e n t d e n y i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s
a n y in s tr u c ti o n to th a t e ff e c t . S o t h e n w e c a r r i e d o n w i t h c o v e r a g e o f
t h e E F F.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o n th e d a y t h a t y o u g o t i n s tr u c ti o n s w e r e y o u n o t
p l a n n in g t o a ir t h a t o n th e s a m e d a y ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

We planned to do that and we did that

Page 146 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
d u r i n g o u r m i d d a y p r o g r a m , w e h a d a n in t e r v ie w w i th t h e E F F w h ic h w e
broadcast.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh you did go ahead?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE: Ja, ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e s p it e t h e in s t r u c t i o n ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Ja.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH EL:

Mr Kr i g e t h a t d ir e c ti v e , t h a t in s t r u c t i o n

t h a t y o u h a d r e c e i v e d n o t t o b r o a d c a s t t h e E F F w a s t h a t i n li n e w i t h t h e
10

e d i to r i a l p o li c y a t t h e t i m e ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

N o n o t s o , i t w a s n o t in l in e w it h a n y o f

– n o t in li n e w i th t h e C o n s t it u ti o n , n o t i n l in e w i t h t h e B C S A’s
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s j u s t c o m p le t e l y w r o n g ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , i t w a s ju s t c o m p l e t e ly w r o n g , t h e r e

w a s n o w a y th a t y o u c a n ig n o r e a p o li t ic a l p a r ty in a n y c o u n tr y o r a n y
n e w s f o r th a t m a t te r t h a t c o m e s t o y o u r a t t e n t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d M r J i m i M a t t h e w s d u r in g – y o u s a i d h e g a v e y o u a
speech or a lecture, did he say why it was that the EFF should not be
20

you know

events

or

anything

connected

w i t h i t s h o u ld

not be

broadcast?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

N o h e d id n o t e x p l a i n t h a t i n s tr u c ti o n ,

t h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t h e s a i d t h a t I m u s t li s t e n t o m y l i n e m a n a g e r s in t h a t
s e n s e t h e A c t i n g H e a d o f N e w s a n d t h a t I s h o u l d lis t e n a n d o b e y a l l
t h e ir in s t r u c t i o n s b u t h e d i d n o t g i v e m e t h e t i m e , t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
d is c u s s th a t s p e c i f ic i n s tr u c t io n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o h e s p o k e i n g e n e r a l ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , ja .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n th e a c ti n g h e a d o f – d i d y o u s a y it w a s M s
D i t lh a k a n y a n e ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , D it l h a k a n y a n e j a .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , A c ti n g H e a d o f R a d io N e w s . J a , a ls o t h i s w a s a
r a d i o b r o a d c a s t , n o t a T V b r o a d c a s t t h a t y o u w e r e p la n n i n g .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:
10

J a , t h a t ’s r i g h t .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o , a n d w h e n y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g w i t h Mr M a t t h e w s

y o u p a r t e d w i th

h i m o n th e b a s is t h a t y o u w o u l d l is t e n t o w h a t e v e r

in s t r u c t i o n t h a t M s D i tl h a k a n y a n e w o u l d b e g iv i n g y o u a n d e v a lu a t e i t ,
i m p ly i n g t h a t i f y o u t h o u g h t th a t i t w a s a la w fu l i n s tr u c t io n t h a t w a s in
li n e w i th th e p o l ic y o f S A B C y o u w o u l d c o m p ly b u t i f y o u th o u g h t i t w a s
u n l a w f u l o r c o n tr a r y to t h e S A B C ’s p o l ic i e s y o u w o u l d n o t c o m p ly, is
t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e i m p ly i n g ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t , a t t h e S A B C a n d

a c c o r d i n g t o o u r e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y t h e d e c is io n m a k in g s t o p s a t t h e
E x e c u t iv e Pr o d u c e r a n d t h a t w a s m y p o s i ti o n , i t is o n ly w h e n y o u a r e
20

u n c e r t a in o f c e r t a i n d e c is i o n s t h a t y o u m u s t m a k e o r w h e n th e r e is a lo t
o f m o n e y i n v o l v e d to d o a tr i p o r w h a te v e r th a t y o u w o u ld s e e t h e
u p w a r d s r e f e r r a l r o u t e , t h e n y o u w il l g o t o y o u r s u p e r i o r o r y o u r n e x t
li n e m a n a g e r a n d d is c u s s i t w i th h e r, if y o u a r e u n c e r t a i n o f t h e c o n te n t
o f c e r t a i n is s u e s th e n y o u w ill d o th a t , b u t u s u a ll y t h e b u c k s to p s a t th e
E x e c u t iv e P r o d u c e r a n d a n y t h i n g fr o m o u t s i d e w e w o u l d d e e m a s

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
in t e r fe r e n c e i n t o y o u r p r o g r a m s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So on that day you went ahead and broadcast

w h a t e v e r y o u w a n t e d t o b r o a d c a s t in r e g a r d t o th e E F F, c o n tr a r y to M s
D i t lh a k a n y a n e ’s i n s tr u c t io n .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:
CHAIRPERSON:

H e r in s t r u c ti o n j a .

Were there any consequences to you as a result of

y o u n o t c o m p l y i n g w it h th a t i n s tr u c t io n o r n o t r e a l ly ?
M R J A K O B D A N I E L S K R I G E : N o c o n s e q u e n c e s a s I s a id s h o r tl y a f te r
t h a t th e S A B C p u t o u t a s ta t e m e n t w h i c h o f c o u r s e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D e n y in g ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , p r o t e c t e d m e a n d m y p o in t o f v i e w

a n d s a i d j a t h e r e i s n o s u c h a n i n s tr u c t io n , a l t h o u g h i t h a p p e n e d , j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s i t h a d h a p p e n e d , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Thank you.

Mr K r i g e le t ’s j u m p o n t o

p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h e r e y o u h ig h li g h t a s e c o n d in c i d e n t
o f a n e d i to r i a l i n te r f e r e n c e w it h t h e S A B C a n n o u n c i n g t h a t th e y w e r e
n o t g o i n g t o c o v e r a n y p r o te s t a c t io n .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

J a , . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )

I m a y h a v e , I a m s o r r y, I m a y h a v e in t e r r u p te d y o u r

p l a n n in g , I t h in k h e w a s s t a r ti n g o n t u r n a b o u t Mr M o ts o e n e n g
a p p o i n ti n g

Ms

D it l h a k a n y a n e

in

the

permanent

p o s i ti o n

when

I

in t e r r u p t e d h i m , I d o n ’ t k n o w if h e h a d f in is h e d th a t p a r t .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , , I w a s ju s t r e f e r r i n g t o t h e f a c t t h a t

la t e r t h a t y e a r M r M o t s o e n e n g a p p o in t e d M s D i tl h a k a n y a n e i n t h e
p e r m a n e n t p o s i t io n o f H e a d o f R a d i o N e w s , M r M a t t h e w s w a s a p p o in t e d

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
a s t h e G E o f N e w s a n d C u r r e n t A ff a ir s w h il e a n o t h e r e m p l o y e e , M s
Nonthando

Maseko

became

the

Head

of

Te l e v i s i o n

News,

the

a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s m a d e o n t h e s a m e d a y a n d i f – a n d la t e r i n 2 0 1 9
w h e n M r J o e S l o v o w a s – a r e p o r t w a s r e l e a s e d a ll t h r e e o f t h e m w e r e
fi n g e r e d a s p a r t o f p e o p le th a t w a s p a r t o f g i v i n g i n s t r u c t i o n s to th e
N e w s R o o m , I t h i n k i t w a s j u s t w i t h m a k in g th a t p o in t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

C h a ir a w i t n e s s t h a t w e h a v e a l l o c a t e d

f o r F r i d a y w o u l d b e a b l e t o t a lk t o th is r e p o r t in d e t a i l . G o i n g b a c k to
10

p a r a g r a p h 1 2 Mr K r i g e y o u h ig h li g h t e d a m e d i a s ta t e m e n t is s u e d b y th e
S A B C s a y in g th e y w e r e n o t g o i n g t o c o v e r a n y p r o t e s t a c ti o n .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Ja.

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L : C a n y o u ta l k to th is , c a n y o u g iv e u s th e
f o u n d a t io n a l p h a s e s to y o u k n o w w h y t h i s b e g a n a n d y o u k n o w h o w t h e
e d i to r i a l in t e r f e r e n c e h o w w a s i t i m p l e m e n t e d t h e n ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

The SABC released a press – sent out a

press release on the 26th of May 2016 where they banned all coverage
o f v io le n t p r o te s t a c ti o n . N o w i t w a s v e r y s tr a n g e t o u s a n d a ls o t o t h e
m e d i a o u ts id e b e c a u s e t h a t ’s c le a r ly a fo r m o f c e n s o r s h ip , s o o n t h e
20

3 0 t h o f M a y w e in v i t e d th r e e g u e s t s t o o u r s h o w i n t h e m o r n in g t o
d is c u s s t h is d e v e l o p m e n t, i t w a s Ti m d u P l e s s is w h o w a s fr o m M e d ia
2 4 , P r o f e s s o r Fr a n s K r u g e r w h o w a s fr o m W i ts U n i v e r s i t y a n d M r Th la d i
M o ts o e n e n g w h o a t f ir s t h e d e c l i n e d , h e d i d n o t a r r i v e a t t h e s tu d i o .
S o w e h a d a d i s c u s s i o n o n t h is p o lic y w h i c h w a s c l e a r ly n o t e d i to r i a l ly
s o u n d , i t w a s n o t C o n s t i tu t io n a l ly s o u n d , y o u c a n n o t w i t h h o ld t h e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
in f o r m a ti o n fr o m th e p e o p le , i f y o u l o o k a t th e B C S A , i f y o u l o o k a t
I C A S A’s r e g u l a ti o n s a n d a ls o a t o u r o w n e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y ,i t is t o ta lly o u t
o f li n e .
S o w e h a d a d is c u s s i o n a n d t h e n e x t m o r n in g , t h e 3 1 s t o f M a y,
w e c o n d u c t e d a s t u d i o i n t e r v i e w w i t h Mr M o ts o e n e n g , w h o w a s
a c c o m p a n i e d b y M r A n to n H e u n is w h o w a s h is s o r t o f – I d o n ’ t k n o w
w h a t h e w a s , h e w a s n e v e r in tr o d u c e d , b u t h e s a t i n t h e s t u d i o m a y b e
b e c a u s e h e c o u l d u n d e r s t a n d A fr ik a a n s , a n d a f t e r w a r d s t h e r e w a s a
d e b a te b e t w e e n m e a n d M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d Mr H e u n is r e g a r d i n g t h e
10

c o n te n t o f t h e p r e v i o u s d a y ’s i n te r v i e w a n d I t o l d t h e m w e h a d a
p r o b le m a s j o u r n a l is ts t o r e a d a b o u t c e r t a i n p o l ic y o r i s s u e s i n t h e
m e d i a a n d n o o n e w i th i n t h e S A B C e v e r c o m m u n ic a te d t h e d ir e c tiv e
d ir e c t ly to u s a n d t h e n I w a s is s u e d u p t o t h e 2 7 t h f l o o r, w h e r e I w a s
jo in e d b y Mr H e u n is , t h e A c t i n g H e a d o f N e w s , Mr S i m o n T h e b e le , M r
M a t t h e w s , J i m i M a t h e w s , w h o w a s t h e A c ti n g C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r a t
t h a t s t a g e , M s D i tl h a k a n y a n e , a n d a c o l l e a g u e M s K r a v a n i P i ll a y w h o
w a s th e E x e c u t iv e P r o d u c e r o f S A F M a t t h a t s ta g e , a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d
t h e r e w a s t h a t e a c h o n e o f t h e p e o p l e m a d e t u r n s t o e x p l a i n c e r t a in
t h i n g s . I to o k n o t e s o f i t w h i c h I ty p e d a ft e r w a r d s , i f th e C h a ir w a n ts I

20

c a n j u s t g o th r o u g h w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a t th a t m e e t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Mr Motsoeneng started in saying we are

c le a n i n g u p t h e o r g a n is a t i o n p e o p le a r e d o i n g t h e ir o w n s t u ff .

There

a r e m a n y jo u r n a l is ts o u t s i d e th a t w a n t t o w o r k fo r th e S A B C , t h e
e n v ir o n m e n t o u t s i d e is b a d .

A n d h e c o n ti n u e d s a y i n g n o p e r s o n is

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
in d e p e n d e n t, th e S A B C i s i n d e p e n d e n t, th is is a n e w S A B C , y o u m u s t
a d a p t o r f in d a jo b s o m e w h e r e e l s e .
T h e n h e s a i d t h a t Ti m d u P l e s s i s w a s f r o m a r iv a l o r g a n is a ti o n ,
a n d w e c a n n o t a l l o w p e o p l e fr o m o u ts i d e t o s a y a n y th in g n e g a t iv e
a b o u t t h e S A B C , a n d h e a ls o a c c u s e d u s th a t w e a s k e d Fr a n s Kr u g e r
le a d i n g q u e s ti o n s d u r i n g th e in t e r v i e w a n d t h e n h e s w i tc h e d o v e r t o
s o m e t h i n g t h a t m y c o ll e a g u e , K r a v a n i P i ll a y, w il l l a te r e x p l a i n w h e n s h e
t e s ti fi e s , a b o u t E d i to r s Fo r u m , w h ic h w a s o n e o f t h e p r o g r a m m e s t h a t
m u s t g o , a n d t h e n A n t o n H e u n i s w a s th e a d v i s o r, s o r t o f a d v is o r f o r M r
10

M o ts o e n e n g , s a i d I a m a n R S G li s te n e r, I k n o w I a m n o t a jo u r n a l is t b u t
y o u mi s u n d e r s t a n d e d i to r i a l fr e e d o m a n d th a t w e a r e a s k i n g le a d i n g
q u e s t io n s .
A n d t h e n h e a s k e d m e w h y . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y, w h a t is R S G lis t e n e r ?
MR

JAKOB

DANIELS

KRIGE:

RSG

is

the

A f r ik a a n s

P u b li c

B r o a d c a s ti n g s t a ti o n o n t h e S A B C b o u q u e t , h a v e g o t a r a d io s t a ti o n f o r
e a c h a n d e v e r y la n g u a g e s o R S G . . .( in t e r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , it is a r a d io s t a ti o n ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:
20

J a , it ’s a r a d i o s t a ti o n , l ik e S A F M is fo r

t h e E n g l is h s p e a k in g p e o p l e , R S G o r E k u k w e z i . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON: Nkozi FM and so on.
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , f o r t h e d i ff e r e n t r a d i o s t a ti o n s , s o

R S G is th e A fr ik a a n s r a d i o S t a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e f u ll n a m e ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Radio Sonder Grense.

Page 152 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

So then Anton Heunis asked me why

didn’t we do an insert about that show that the presence of cameras on
u n r e s t s c e n e s le a d s to v i o l e n c e , a n d . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L : S o r r y M r K r i g e , c a n y o u j u s t i d e n t if y w h o
F o e t e i s , b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

F o e t e , o k a y F o e te w a s m y n i c k n a m e ,

t h a t i s n o t my r e a l b ir t h n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

It c o m e s fr o m M a p h u ta w h e n I w a s a

s m a ll b o y s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , is i t l ik e M a p h u t a i n i s i Z u l u ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : ( la u g h i n g ) w e l l I c a n u n d e r s ta n d w h a t i t m e a n s b u t I
t h i n k a l o t o f p e o p l e d o u n d e r s t a n d , y e s th a n k y o u .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

A n d t h e n h e a s k e d u s w h y d id n ’t w e u s e

r e s e a r c h t o s h o w th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ( in d is ti n c t) d u ly t o v io le n c e a n d
t h e n I a s k e d h i m , b u t I s a i d t o h i m b u t i f y o u li a i s e w i t h y o u r a u d i t o r s
b e f o r e h a n d a n d i f y o u t o l d u s t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o g i v e t h is
20

in s t r u c t i o n t h e n w e w o u l d h a v e u s e d th e r e s e a r c h t h a t y o u b a s e d y o u r
in s t r u c t i o n o n a n d t h e n M r M o ts o e n e n g s a i d b u t I d o n ’ t b e li e v e i n
research.

H e s a id y o u m u s t d e fe n d th e o r g a n i s a t io n , n o j o u r n a l is t i s

in d e p e n d e n t, t h e C E O h a s a f i n a l r e s p o n s ib il i ty f o r n e w s , w h ic h w a s
a ls o s tr a n g e t o m e b e c a u s e th e C E O h a s g o t n o t h in g to d o w i t h n e w s .
T h e C O O a s t h e C h i e f O p e r a ti n g O ff ic e r w h ic h d e a ls w i th o p e r a ti o n s

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
a n d t h e C E O i s t h e e d it o r i n c h ie f , i t w a s o n ly s h o r t ly a f t e r t h a t t h a t w e
r e a l is e d t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g c h a n g e d t h e e d i t o r ia l p o lic y a n d i t w a s
s ig n e d o ff i n F e b r u a r y, t h r e e m o n t h s e a r li e r, w h i c h m a d e h i m t h e d e
f a c to H e a d o f N e w s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

But we didn’t know that, it was never

c o m m u n ic a te d , i t o n ly c a m e l a t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you recall who would have signed that, would it

h a v e b e e n h i m s e l f , m a k in g h i ms e lf h e a d o f , t h e p e r s o n w i t h fi n a l s a y o n
10

n e w s o r w a s i t s o m e b o d y e l s e w h o . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e ’s a p r o c e s s t h a t

w e s ta r t e d i n t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 , a t t h a t s ta g e th e e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y i n p l a c e
w a s fr o m 2 0 0 4 a n d w e h a d to r e n e w i t s o w e s t a r te d w i t h a p r o c e s s a t
t h e S A B C t o d i s c u s s t h e p o li c y.

I was part of three of those

d is c u s s io n s , a n d t h e n th e h e a d o f t h a t g r o u p , t h e p o l ic y m a k i n g g r o u p ,
s a i d th e y a r e g o i n g t o t h e – ta k i n g t h e p o l ic y t o t h e p u b lic a n d
a ft e r w a r d s t h e y w il l c o m e b a c k t o u s a n d g iv e f e e d b a c k r e g a r d i n g t h e
c h a n g e s t h a t w o u l d b e a c c e p te d . I t n e v e r h a p p e n e d , i t n e v e r h a p p e n e d
a n d w e o n ly r e a lis e d la t e r th a t i t w a s p u s h e d t h r o u g h w it h n o
20

c o n s u l t a ti o n , n o fe e d b a c k t o t h e p e o p l e o f th e S A B C a n d b e t w e e n th e
li n e s , i t w a s a s m a l l p a r a g r a p h , y o u c o u l d s e e t h a t t h e C O O w a s n o w i n
c h a r g e o f n e w s , w h o w a s M r M o ts o e n e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

A t t h a t s t a g e M o ts h la d e tu r n e d t o t h e

A c ti n g H e a d o f N e w s w it h M r S i m o n T h e b e le a n d h e s a id S i m o n i f

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
people do not adhere get rid of them, we cannot have people who
q u e s t io n m a n a g e m e n t , t h i s i s th e la s t ti m e w e h a v e a m e e ti n g o f th is
k in d , fr o m n o w o n y o u h a n d l e t h i n g s o n y o u r le v e l , a n d t h e n M r
M a t t h e w s t h e o n ly t h i n g h e s a i d i t is c o l d o u ts i d e , i f y o u d o n ’ t li k e i t
y o u c a n g o , y o u h a v e t w o c h o i c e s , t h e d o o r o r th e w i n d o w. A n d t h a t
w a s a b o u t it in t h a t m e e ti n g .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L : Mr Kr i g e c a n w e j u m p o n t o p a r a g r a p h 1 5
w h e r e y o u h ig h l i g h t a p r e - e l e c t io n w o r k s h o p , c a n y o u ju s t s h o r tl y j u s t
e x p l a i n w h a t is th e p u r p o s e o f a p r e - e l e c t io n w o r k s h o p , y o u k n o w w h o
10

a tt e n d s a p r e - e l e c ti o n w o r k s h o p a n d s o f o r t h ?
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

T h e p r e - e l e c ti o n w o r k s h o p u s u a lly i t is

a tt e n d e d b y a l l t h e o r i g in a l e d i to r s a n d t h e n e w s e d i to r s f r o m a l l t h e
P r o v i n c e s , i t i s u s u a l ly w e h a d a w o r k s h o p l ik e th a t e v e r y y e a r t o b r i n g
a l l th e e d i t o r s t o g e t h e r a t o n e p l a c e , b u t a t t h a t s ta g e w e – I d o n ’ t t h i n k
w e h a d o n e in a w h i l e b u t b e f o r e t h a t s p e c if ic e l e c t io n i n 2 0 1 6
e v e r y o n e w a s fl o w n i n fr o m a l l th e p r o v i n c e s a n d w e h a d a n e le c t i o n
w o r k s h o p w h e r e w e d is c u s s e d t h e s tr a t e g y a n d th e p l a n n i n g . I t w a s a
s o r t o f a p l a n n in g m e e ti n g f o r th e c o v e r a g e o f th e c o m i n g e l e c t io n .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L : O k a y, a n d i n t h is e l e c ti o n y o u h i g h l ig h t
20

t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g h a d m a d e c e r t a i n s t a t e m e n t s w h ic h y o u h a d
recorded in notes.
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

Ja.
In h a n d w r it i n g n o te s , i n h a n d w r i tt e n

notes.
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

Ja.

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L : A n d t h o s e n o te s a r e – y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d
t h e m a s A n n e x u r e s 0 3 a n d 0 4 , C h a ir th a t w o u ld b e o n p a g e s 7 8 – h e
h a s a ls o h i g h l ig h te d t h e m i n t h e s ta t e m e n t b e c a u s e i t is d i ffic u l t f o r o n e
t o r e a d t h e h a n d w r i tt e n n o t e s .
MR JAKOB DANIELS KRIGE:

J a , i t is q u i t e d i ffic u l t .

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L : A n d th e s e c o n d s e t w o u ld b e o n p a g e 7 9 .
M r Kr ig e .. . ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u m o v e a w a y fr o m 7 8 o r a r e y o u s t ill a t 7 8 ?
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHEL:
10

N o C h a ir I d i d n o t, t h e s e w e r e j u s t t o

in d i c a t e t h a t t h e s e w e r e a c tu a l ly th e h a n d w r i t t e n n o t e s f r o m t h a t
m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

I a m j u s t g o i n g t o h e a d b a c k i n to t h e

p a r a g r a p h b e c a u s e i t w il l b e q u it e d i ffi c u l t to l o o k a t t h o s e h a n d w r i t te n
n o t e s , b u t h e h a s c a p t u r e d t h e m i n h is m a in s ta t e m e n t , i n h i s m a in
a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. S o w e g o b a c k t o h is s t a t e m e n t ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL:

H is s t a t e m e n t , a n d t h a t w o u l d b e

paragraph 16 on page 6.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W a s h is s ta t e m e n t a t t h e b e g in n in g ? N o , i t is
n o t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L : I t is n o t t h e b e g in n in g , it ’s u n d e r f o l d e r
12, page 6.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo l d e r 1 2 . O k a y a n d w h a t p a r a g r a p h ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: 16

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Paragraph 16.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M r K r i g e a m I c o r r e c t in s a y i n g t h is i s

a n e x tr a c t io n fr o m w h a t Mr M o t s o e n e n g w a s s a y i n g ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: Ja.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d I h a v e n o t e d t h a t y o u h a v e p u t t h is
c o m p le t e p a r a g r a p h in q u o t e s . Is th is w h a t - w o r d fo r w o r d a s to w h a t
M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s s a y in g o r w a s it j u s t - y o u k n o w - w e r e y o u
paraphrasing? Can you just explain?
10

MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

I t - it w a s a b i t o f b o t h .

What I did I

jo t t e d d o w n c e r ta i n w o r d s th a t h e w a s s a y i n g a n d t h e n d i r e c t ly a ft e r
t h a t I - I ty p e d i t o u t a s - a s s t a t e d h e r e i n t h is a ffi d a v i t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

O k a y.

Can you just read out 16.1?

What was …
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: Huh-uh.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : S t a te d b y M r M o ts o e n e n g ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

M r M o ts o e n e n g

d i ff e r e n t - a t t w o d i ffe r e n t o c c a s i o n s .

spoke

to

us

“ T h e r e is a n a g e n d a fo r t h e c o r p o r a ti o n d r i v e n b y
t h r e e D ir e c t o r s , t h e C E O , t h e C O O a n d t h e C F O . ”
H e s a id :
“ D o n o t f o c u s o n n e g a tiv e s t o r i e s .
that you balance stories.

two

T h e g is t o f i t w a s th a t t h e

S A B C ’s i n d e p e n d e n t - n o i n d iv id u a l is i n d e p e n d e n t . H e s a i d :
20

in

It is i m p o r t a n t

To l d h u m a n s t o r i e s - i s

p o li t ic i a n s n o t h u m a n b e i n g s ?

Page 157 of 173

Reporters at the

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
SABC do not know the world.

When they report

t h e y m i s l e a d lis t e n e r s . ”
H e s a id :
“ G o t o A m e r ic a .

Th e r e is p o v e r ty.

They do not

s h o w i t . Th e y d o n o t s h o w w h e n t h e ir s o l d i e r s d ie .
I w i ll t a k e y o u t o B R I C S c o u n t r y a n d y o u c a n j u s t g o
t o a h o t e l . Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t S o u t h A f r i c a i s b e t t e r. ”
T h e n h e r e f e r r e d t o t h e E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y. H e s a i d :
“ L o o k - l o o k a t th e E d i t o r ia l P o li c y.
10

We have

r e m o v e d n e w s a n d r e p l a c e d it w i t h c o n t e n t. I f y o u
a s S A B C m e s s u p t h e o r g a n i s a t io n y o u m e s s u p
y o u r li f e .
o p e r a ti o n s .

I am in charge.

N e w s is n o w p a r t o f

We change the world.

n e w s w it h c o n t e n t .

We must have

I am in charge.

a d h e r e to a n y in s t r u c t i o n .
P r e s i d e n t o f th e c o u n tr y.

Yo u m u s t

P r e s i d e n t Z u m a is t h e
I do not regard him as

A N C . Yo u c a n n o t tr e a t h i m th e s a m e . W e w i ll g iv e
h i m m o r e t i m e a n d y o u c a n q u e s t io n e v e r y o n e . .. ”
A n d h e m e n ti o n e d G w e d e M a n t a s h e a n d o t h e r n a m e s .
20

“…except your President. We need to respect him
e s p e c i a l ly y o u S A B C . I e x p e c t y o u t o a li g n y o u w i th
m y i n s tr u c ti o n . ”
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d - M r Kr ig e a n d w h a t w a s th e

r e s p o n s e t o th e s e s t a te m e n ts t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g w e r e s a y i n g ? I m e a n
y o u h a v e a r o o m fu ll o f e d it o r s a n d p e o p le i n t h e p r o f e s s i o n w h o a r e

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
v e r y k n o w l e d g e a b l e a b o u t e d it o r ia l p o lic i e s a n d h o w a b r o a d c a s t in g
should

work.

What

was

the

response

to

h is

s t a t e m e n ts

-

M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s s t a te m e n ts ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:
p e o p l e ’s r e a c ti o n w a s .

I am not sure about what the other

W e w e r e s o u s e d t o w h a t w e c a ll ( i n d is t in c t )

s p e a k a t t h a t s t a g e t h a t h e w a s j u s t - w e th o u g h t h e w a s j u s t
b l a b b e r in g o n . A t t h a t s t a g e w h a t I d i d I m e s s a g e d a - a c o ll e a g u e o f
m i n e b a c k a t A u c k l a n d P a r k a s k in g to g o t h r o u g h o u r in t e r n e t w h ic h w h e r e t h e E d i to r i a l P o l ic y is d is p la y e d a n d t o s e e w h ic h p o li c y t h e S A B
10

- t h e S A B C is u s i n g a n d t h e r e w a s n o - n o s i g n o f t h e 2 0 1 6 o r th e n e w
E d it o r ia l P o l ic y.
I t w a s s ti ll t h e o ld 2 0 0 4 p o l ic y.

So I was puzzled.

The

p e o p l e d i d n o t s h o w a l o t o f r e a c ti o n . T h e r e w e r e n o o n e q u e s ti o n i n g
t h e f a c t t h a t - t h a t h e s a i d t h a t b u t h e a ls o l e ft d ir e c tl y a f t e r t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g l e f t a n d w e - t h e r e w a s n o t i m e t o d is c u s s t h is - th e s e
in s t r u c t i o n s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : S o t h e r e w a s n o p u r s u in g w h a t h e h a d
s a i d a t t h e t i m e . J u s t - e v e r y b o d y j u s t le f t i t i n t h e a ir ?
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : J a . Yo u k n o w h o w w o r k s h o p s w o r k . Yo u
20

s i t t h e r e a n d y o u lis t e n a n d y o u m a k e n o t e s a n d a f te r w a r d s e v e r y o n e is
d o i n g a n y w a y t h e ir o w n t h i n g s - y o u k n o w - a n d a s I s a i d a t t h a t s t a g e it
w a s v e r y c o n f u s i n g w i th in t h e n e w s r o o m e s p e c ia ll y a f t e r 2 6 M a y
s t a te m e n t .

W e d id n o t k n o w w h a t t o d o .

We did not know to react

because you cannot cover a protest or broadcast protest.
Yo u s til l c o v e r i n g i t b u t d o n o t - d o n o t - y o u d o n o t b r o a d c a s t

Page 159 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
it .

D o y o u s e n d o u t a te a m o f r e p o r t e r s to a s c e n e b u t i f t h e r e i s

v io l e n c e t h e n y o u - y o u t a k e t h e m b a c k t o t h e o ffic e .

So everything

w a s v e r y c o n f u s i n g a t t h a t s t a g e a n d t h e r e w a s n o t a l o t o f g u id a n c e
fr o m - f r o m s o m e o n e li k e M r J i m i M a tt h e w s w h o w a s a t t h a t s ta g e th e w e ll a c c o r d in g to u s t h e E d i to r in C h i e f .
H e j u s t s a i d h e d e r iv e s h is o x y g e n fr o m t h e n e w s r o o m a n d
t h e r e is n o t a l o t o f o x y g e n a t th e 2 8 t h Fl o o r w h e r e h e - w h e r e h is
o ffic e s w a s a n d h e s a i d h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o g iv e a n y e d i to r i a l
g u i d a n c e . S o h e l e f t i t t o M r M o t s o e n e n g t o g iv e u s e d i t o r i a l g u i d a n c e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e t h a t y o u p u t w h a t Mr M o t s o e n e n g s a i d in

q u o t a t i o n m a r k s . D i d y o u m e c h a n ic a lly r e c o r d w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In p a r a g r a p h 1 6 .1 y o u j u s t r e a d t h a t w h o l e p a r a g r a p h
w h ic h is i n q u o t a ti o n m a r k s . D i d y o u m e c h a n ic a l ly r e c o r d w h a t h e w a s
s a y in g ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

There - there was a recording made by

p e o p l e w h o w e r e th e r e b u t t h is c o m e s fr o m m y n o t e s a n d i t a l s o f o r m e d
p a r t o f a n a ffi d a v i t th a t w e - w e s e n t i n t o t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : In 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u - y o u a c c u r a te ly ju s t w r o t e d o w n w h a t h e w a s
s a y in g ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 160 of 173

M r Kr ig e t h e r e h a s

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
b e e n e v i d e n c e o f p o t e n t ia l p u r g i n g t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a t th e S A B C a n d
y o u h ig h li g h t in p a r a g r a p h 1 7 t h a t y o u - y o u y o u r s e l f b e c a m e a v i c ti m o f
t h is p u r g in g a t th e S A B C . C a n y o u j u s t e l a b o r a t e o n h o w th a t c a m e t o
b e a b o u t - h o w th a t c a m e a l o n g ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

Ja.

W h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r t h e - th e

s t a te m e n t t o b a n v i o l e n t p r o t e s t o n 2 6 M a y ? Th e r e w a s a n o u tc r y fr o m
a l l o v e r t h e c o u n t r y fr o m t h e m e d i a a n d e s p e c i a lly th e N G O s a n d t h e r e
w a s a p r o t e s t m a r c h p la n n e d t o th r e e o f t h e S A B C ’s o ff ic e s a n d o n t h e
m o r n in g o n 2 0 J u n e w e - I p a r ti c i p a t e d i n a l in e ta lk - d a i ly l in e ta lk
10

w h e r e t h e A c ti n g H e a d o f N e w s M r S i m o n Te b e l e g a v e i n s tr u c t io n s t o
r e m o v e th r e e o f t h e s t o r i e s fr o m o u r t o p s t o r y lis t .
To e x p la in w e h a v e a d i a r y e v e r y d a y a n d t h e r e is a li s t o f t o p
s t o r ie s a n d t h e n t h e r e i s a d i a r y o f e a c h a n d e v e r y r e g i o n . S o a s a n
e d i to r s e a t e d i n J o h a n n e s b u r g I c a n h a v e a l o o k a t t h e to p - t o p s to r i e s
a n d t h e n lo o k a t a l l th e r e g i o n s a n d s e e a l l th e p r o m is e d s t o r i e s th a t
s h o u l d a r r iv e b e f o r e t h e e n d o f th e d a y o r f o r th e n e x t m o r n in g ’s s h o w n .
S o i t g iv e s y o u a n i n d ic a ti o n o f w h a t to e x p e c t a n d t h e t o p
s t o r ie s a r e th e m o s t i m p o r ta n t s t o r ie s a n d w e tr y e v e r y p r o g r a m a n d
n e w s b u ll e ti n - b u ll e ti n t o tr y t o f o c u s o n t h o s e s t o r i e s .

20

m o r n in g Mr S i m o n Te b e l e r e m o v e d t h r e e o f t h e s to r i e s .

S o th a t

It was Y2K.

T h e r i g h t t o k n o w c a m p a i g n th a t o r g a n is e d m a r c h e s t o th e S A B C t o
c o m p la i n a g a i n s t t h e - t h e p o l ic y o f n o t s h o w i n g v io l e n c e - v i o l e n t
p r o t e s t ja a n d a t t h a t s t a g e t h e Ec o n o mi c s E d it o r M s T h a n d e k a G q u b u l e
q u e s t io n e d M r Te b e l e ’s d e c is io n a n d t h e n h e e x p l a i n e d t o h e r th a t i t - i t
m u s t b e r e m o v e d b e c a u s e i t i s - it i s a b o u t u s - t h e S A B C a n d I

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
u n d e r s t a n d i t th a t t h a t m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 7 t h F lo o r w h e r e t h e y s a i d w e
c a n n o t w e c r i ti c is e t h e S A B C .
W e c a n n o t a l lo w p e o p l e to c r i t ic i s e t h e S A B C a n d I m a d e t h a t
c o n n e c t io n a t t h a t s ta g e .

S o t h e y r e m o v e d th o s e s to r i e s b e c a u s e i t

w a s n e g a tiv e o r it w a s a b o u t t h e S A B C a n d t h a t w h o l e m e e ti n g w a s
r e c o r d e d b y m y c o ll e a g u e S u n a Ve n te r w h i c h w e l a te r tr a n s c r i b e d a n d i t
is o r w h a t y o u s e e h e r e is - is p a r t o f t h a t t r a n s c r i p t i o n w h e r e M r Te b e l e
s a i d t h o s e s t o r ie s a r e o u t a s d is c u s s e d e a r li e r.
T h e n T h a n d e k a e x p l a i n e d th a t w e - s h e - s h e d o e s n o t w a n t
10

t o b e p a r t o f a d e c is io n li k e t h a t a n d s h e s a id a n d i f t h i s w h o le is s u e
e n d s u p i n c o u r t a n d s h e a n d I q u o t e th e r e :
“And when we fall foul of the law - God forbid - we
b e t t e r j u s t h a v e r e c a ll it e v e n t h e d is s e n ti n g v o ic e s .
P l e a s e r e c o r d m y v o ic e a s d is s e n ti n g . ”
Then I said:
“ I t o ta ll y a g r e e w i t h y o u .

Th e in i ti a l d e c i s i o n o r

in it i a l ly th e y s a id w e c a n n o t g iv e o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s
a p l a tf o r m t o c r i tic is e t h e S A B C .

T h a t I t o ta ll y

u n d e r s t a n d . T h e y a r e i n th e m e d i a b u t th i s is n o t a
media

20

issue.

It is

o p p o s it i o n o r w h a te v e r.

not other

newspapers

T h is is N G O .

or

I t is o u t

there and if we ignore them we are busy censoring
o u r o w n n e w s a n d th a t is t o ta ll y u n a c c e p t a b l e . ”
A t t h a t s ta g e S u n a Ve n t e r w h o w a s m y c o ll e a g u e a t R S G
said:

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
“And as junior as I am please record my voice as
d is s e n t in g a g a i n s t t h is . ”
O n w h ic h I r e p l ie d :
“ W e c a n n o t a l l o w p e o p l e /i n d i v i d u a ls i n t h is c o m p a n y
m a k i n g d e c is i o n s o n b e h a l f o f j o u r n a l is ts . I f w e a r e
g o i n g t o c a r r y o n w i th t h a t w e a r e g o in g t o l o s e a ll
in t e g r i ty.

T h e li t tl e i n te g r i ty t h a t w e h a v e a t t h e

moment.”
A n d th e n i t c a r r ie d o n . M r Te b e l e a c k n o w l e d g e d t h e f a c t t h a t
10

w e - w e o p p o s e d t h e d e c i s i o n t o r e m o v e t h e s t o r ie s fr o m t h e d i a r y a n d
t h e n t h r e e d a y s la t e r o n 2 3 J u n e M s G q u b u l e a n d M s - M s Ve n t e r a n d
m y s e l f w e r e c a ll e d in s e p a r a t e ly a n d n o ti f i e d o f o u r s u s p e n s i o n .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M r Kr ig e l e t u s j u s t g o b a c k .

The

r e m o v a l o f th e s e th r e e s t o r i e s w e r e a g a i n s t th e E d i t o r ia l P o l ic y. Is th a t
correct?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: Ja. At the SABC we always have the - the
p r o b le m a s p a r t o f o n e o f t h e S O E s a n d a l s o a s p a r t o f t h e m e d ia . I t is
- i t w a s a l w a y s d i ffic u l t to - t o r e p o r t o n y o u r s e l f o r w h a t h a p p e n e d i n
y o u r o w n - in y o u r o w n c o m p a n y.
20

S o I c a n u n d e r s t a n d fr o m c e r t a i n

p e o p l e ’s p o i n t o f v i e w t h a t y o u d o n o t - th e r e is a l o t o f c o m p a n i e s t h a t
f o r b i d p e o p l e t o t a l k a b o u t th e ir o w n c o m p a n y b u t i n o u r - i n o u r
s i tu a ti o n w e w e r e a ls o p a r t o f t h e m e d ia a n d a c c o r d i n g t o m e w e h a d if th e r e is a n y t h i n g n e g a tiv e a b o u t t h e S A B C w e h a v e t o p u t i t o n - o u t
there.
G e t p e o p l e t o r e a c t . G iv e th e - t h e S A B C t h e r i g h t t o r e s p o n d

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
a n d r e p o r t i t a s - a s o u r E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y e x p e c ts f r o m u s . W e c a n n o t w e a r e n o t i n a p o s i ti o n - a s s o o n a s - th e r e i s 2 2 m il li o n p e o p le i n t h e
c o u n tr y th a t th e r e o n ly s o u r c e o f n e w s i s t h e S A B C . T h e y c a n n o t a ffo r d
n e w s p a p e r s . T h e y c a n n o t a ffo r d D S T V. S o i t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e
S A B C t o fu l fil t h a t r o l e o f - o f g i v i n g n e w s t o e a c h a n d e v e r y o n e in th is
c o u n tr y a n d w e c a n n o t i g n o r e s o m e t h i n g li k e th a t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d d i d M r Te b e l e g i v e a n y j u s ti f ia b le

r e a s o n s t h a t a r e in li n e w i t h t h e E d i t o r i a l P o lic y a s t o w h y th e s e t h r e e
s t o r ie s s h o u l d n o t b e a ir e d ?
10

M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : N o . H is o n l y r e a s o n w a s - w a s i t is - i t is
a b o u t u s . T h a t w a s h is o n l y r e a s o n a n d t h e n w e c o n t in u e d w it h t h e t h e li n e t a l k . T h e r e w a s n o f u r t h e r d is c u s s io n a ll o w e d .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d s u b s e q u e n t t o th a t e n c o u n t e r a b o u t
t h e r e m o v a l o f th e s e th r e e s t o r i e s w a s th a t w h e n y o u w e r e d i s m is s e d ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

J a . W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n w e w e n t t o th e

L a b o u r C o u r t o n 1 8 J u ly. Th e r e w a s a - a d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g . I th i n k
M s Kr iv a n i P il la y w ill - w i ll e x p l a i n th a t w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e .

There

w a s a - th e y tr i e d t o - t o c o n d u c t a d is c i p l in a r y - d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g
b u t it w a s n e v e r c o n c l u d e d a n d th e n w e w e r e w a i t in g f o r a n e x t d a t e t o
20

a p p e a r a n d b e f o r e w e a p p e a r e d w e w e r e a ll d is m is s e d .

I was

d is m i s s e d w it h - a l o n g w i t h s e v e n o th e r c o l le a g u e s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

S o f r o m t h e ti m e fr o m t h e d i s c i p li n a r y

h e a r in g t o y o u r d is m i s s a l - i f - i f I a m c o r r e c t t h a t is l e s s t h a n 2 4
hours?
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : W h a t h a p p e n e d w a s t h e in i ti a l d is c i p l in a r y

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04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
h e a r in g th e r e - t h e r e w a s a p l a n n e d m e e ti n g t o g o t o t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l
C o u r t o n th e F r i d a y. W e c a ll e d i t B l a c k Fr id a y a n d w e w e r e s u p p o s e d m e , T h a n d e k a a n d S u n a - w e r e s u p p o s e d t o l e a d t h e - t h e m a r c h t o th e
- t o t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t a n d 2 3 h o u r s e a r li e r b e fo r e t h a t w e - I
r e c e i v e d a p h o n e c a l l fr o m - fr o m th e D i s c i p l in a r y C o m m i t t e e a n d t e l li n g
m e t h a t I m u s t b e a t th e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g th e s a m e m o r n in g a s th e a s t h e m a r c h t o t h e - t o t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t w h i c h w a s a b r e a c h o f
t h e ir o w n D i s c i p li n a r y C o d e b e c a u s e y o u n e e d t o g iv e s o m e o n e a t l e a s t
2 4 h o u r s ’ n o ti c e .
10

Yo u m u s t r e m e m b e r a t t h a t s t a g e w e w e r e lo c k e d o u t o f th e
S A B C a n d w e h a d n o t a c c e s s to o u r c o m p u t e r s , to a n y f il e s , t o a n y t h i n g
t h a t y o u c o u l d u s e in a d i s c ip li n a r y - d u r in g a d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g t o
d e f e n d y o u r s e lf .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

And the Labour Court found your

d is m i s s a l s w e r e …
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : In v a li d .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : N o t l a w fu l - i n v a li d …
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: Ja.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d y o u w e r e r e in s ta t e d t h e r e a f t e r ?
20

M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : J a . A s i f w e w e r e n e v e r d is m is s e d , j a .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a i r M r M a t th e w s r e s p o n d e d t o t h e

3 .3 N o ti c e t h a t w a s i s s u e d o n b e h a l f o f M r Kr i g e . T h a t w o u l d b e C C 2 5 .
T h e s m a ll p r e s e n ta t io n f il e . M r Kr ig e t h e r e i s a s m a ll p r e s e n t a t i o n f il e
ju s t n e x t to y o u o n t o p - C C 2 5 . I a m ju s t g o i n g t o h i g h li g h t t h e r e l e v a n t
p a r a g r a p h s . H i s r e s p o n s e is fr o m p a g e 1 8 .

Page 165 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h is r e s p o n s e t o M r K r i g e ’s s ta t e m e n t?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y a n d y o u w i ll p u t h i s r e s p o n s e t o Mr K r i g e

f o r Mr K r i g e t o c o m m e n t o n - o n w h a t M r M a tt h e w s h a s t o s a y ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Mr K r i g e a r e y o u t h e r e o n p a g e 1 8 ?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: I am on page 18, yes.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : P a r a g r a p h 1 3 h e s ta t e s t h a t :
10

“ I n t h e R u le 3 .3 N o t ic e d a t e d 1 3 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 i t i s
suggested

th a t

I

have

been

implicated

in

p a r a g r a p h s n i n e , 1 0 , 11 , 1 4 a n d 1 4 . 6 o f M r Kr ig e ’s
a ffi d a v i t . I a c c o r d in g ly r e s p o n d t h e r e to a s fo ll o w s . ”
P a r a g r a p h n i n e o f t h e a ff i d a v i t :
“ A s I h a v e in d i c a t e d e a r l ie r in h i s a ffi d a v i t t h e
E d it o r in C h i e f a t t h e S A B C w a s C E O M o ts o e n e n g .
H e m a d e a l l d e c i s i o n s i n r e l a ti o n t o e d i t o r i a l a n d
n e w s w o r t h y m a t te r s a n d i n t h a t v e i n h e m a d e
d e c is i o n s
20

about

what

could

or

could

not

be

r e p o r t e d . I t is i n t h a t c o n t e x t t h a t I h a v e r e p e a te d ly
in d i c a t e d th a t t h e e n v ir o n m e n t a t t h e S A B C a t t h e
ti m e w a s t o x ic o r c o r r o s iv e a n d t h a t e v e r y b o d y w a s
e x p e c te d t o c o n f o r m to h is i n s tr u c ti o n s f a il in g w h i c h
t h e p r o s p e c t o f te r m i n a ti o n l o o m e d l a r g e . ”
Next paragraph:

Page 166 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
“On

that

day

Sebonelo Dithlakanyane

informed

Krige …”
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e d o y o u w a n t t o l e t h i m c o m m e n t if h e h a s
any comment on paragraph 30.1?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u w a n t to s a y a b o u t w h a t

M r M a tt h e w s s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 3 0 .1 t h a t h a s b e e n r e a d t o y o u ?
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : H e is o n ly h a l f r i g h t. My p a r a g r a p h n i n e
r e fe r s to s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d i n 2 0 1 4 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : W h e n Mr …
CHAIRPERSON: He was no longer there?
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

W h e n - w h e n M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s - n o .

H e w a s C E O b u t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e E d it o r ia l P o lic y a t th a t s t a g e t h e
E d it o r

in

Chief

was

-

was

the

CEO

and

I

t h in k

it

was

M s L u la m a M o k h o b o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : W h o t e s ti f ie d e a r li e r a t t h a t s ta g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

S o i t is w r o n g o f h i m t o s a y t h a t M r -

M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s i n f a c t t h e d e f a c t o n e w s b o s s i n 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

M a y b e h e k n e w s o m e th in g t h a t I - t h a t I

d i d n o t k n o w a t t h a t s ta g e b u t
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 167 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

A c c o r d i n g t o o u r E d i t o r i a l P o lic y i t w a s

s t il l t h e C E O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

H o w e v e r t h e - th e la t e r p a r t o f t h a t is

c o r r e c t . Th a t i n 2 0 1 6 b y - a t t h a t s t a g e Mr M o ts o e n e n g w a s a lr e a d y t h e
E d it o r in C h i e f.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: The next paragraph:
“On
10

that

day

Sebonelo Dithlakanyane

informed

K r i g e w h o w a s h e r d ir e c t r e p o r t a b o u t M o t s o e n e n g ’s
in s t r u c t i o n s

regarding

the

E F F.

In

light

of

M r Kr ig e ’s r e s p o n s e t o h e r s h e a p p r o a c h e d m e f o r
a d v ic e a b o u t h i m n o t o n ly i n r e la t io n t o t h i s i n c id e n t
b u t i n r e l a t i o n to h i s g e n e r a l ly c o n fr o n t a ti o n a l
a p p r o a c h t o w a r d s h e r i n t h e p a s t . I t is w a s g e n e r a l
- i t w a s in t h a t g e n e r a l c o n t e x t o f h i s h is t o r ic a l
conduct

to w a r d s

her

w h ic h

in

my

view

o ft e n

b o r d e r e d o n r a c is t a n d s e x is t c o n d u c t t h a t I t h o u g h t
it w o u l d b e a p p r o p r ia t e to i n te r v e n e a n d i n fo r m h i m
20

t h a t h is a t ti t u d e t o w a r d s D it h la k a n y a n e w a s n o t
appropriate nor acceptable.”
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : J a . Th a t i s a n e a s y w a y o u t . It is o n e o f
t h e - t h e m o s t c o m m o n e x c u s e s i f - i f a m a n d i ffe r s w i t h a w o m a n . I t is
e i t h e r s e x is t a n d i f s h e is B l a c k t h e n - th e n it is r a c is t . H e i s p la y i n g
t h e - t h e m a n a n d n o t th e b a ll . T h e is s u e h e r e w a s a n in s tr u c ti o n f r o m

Page 168 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
m y s u p e r io r - m y li n e m a n a g e r t h a t w e c a n n o t r e p o r t o n a n y E F F
a c ti v i ti e s . T h a t is th e i s s u e .
N o t - n o t th e f a c t th a t I a m s o m e t i m e s c o n fr o n ta t io n a l .

Of

c o u r s e in a - i n a n e w s r o o m i t is a r o b u s t e n v ir o n m e n t a n d s o m e ti m e s
w e a r e c o n fr o n t a ti o n a l a n d i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r i f i t is a m a n o r a w o m a n
o r B la c k o r - o r C o lo u r e d .

I t is n o t th e i s s u e .

Th a t is n o t t h e is s u e .

T h e is s u e is w a s th e i n s tr u c t io n t h a t S e b o n e lo g a v e m e l a w f u l o r n o t
b u t h e tr i e s t o a v o i d i t b y u s i n g - y o u k n o w - s e x is t o r a r a c i s t
i m p l ic a t i o n .
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

O k a y. R e s p o n d in g t o y o u r p a r a g r a p h s

1 0 a n d 11 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t . I t r e a d s :
“In

paragraph

10

Mr Krige

avers

th a t

on

1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 I w a s a p p o i n te d i n t h e p o s i t io n o f
G r o u p E x e c u t iv e N e w s . I n p a r a g r a p h 11 Mr K r i g e
m a k e s a b r o a d a s s e r ti o n t h a t I h a v e b e e n f in g e r e d
in o th e r w o r d s i m p l ic a te d i n th e r e p o r t .

His

a s s e r t io n is g e n e r a l a n d n o n - s p e c i fi c a n d I h a v e i n
a n y e v e n t d e a l t w i t h t h e r e le v a n t p o r t io n s o f th e
report above.”
20

M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : W e l l I r e a d M r J o e T h lo lo e ’s r e p o r t a n d i t
w a s d e fi n i t e t h a t h i m - h e , S e b o n e l o a n d S i m o n Te b e l e w a s g iv i n g
in s t r u c t i o n s v i a c e r ta in p e o p le t o t h e n e w s r o o m .
fi n g e r e d .

I am not sure what - what he means.

w r o n g d e d u c t io n .

S o if t h a t is n o t
M a y b e I m a d e th e

W e c a n lo o k - lo o k a t it w h e n w e d is c u s s t h e

J o e T h l o l o e r e p o r t a n d t h e i m p li c a t io n s o f t h a t .

Page 169 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I n r e s p o n s e to p a r a g r a p h s 1 4 a n d 1 4 . 6
o f M r Kr i g e ’s a ffi d a v it . M r M a t t h e w s r e p li e s :
“ I n th e s e p a r a g r a p h M r Kr i g e s u g g e s ts th a t I h a v e
either - I was involved in or sought enforcement of
M o ts o e n e n g ’s d e c is io n s t o b a n a n y c o v e r a g e o f
v io l e n t p r o te s t .

I h a v e i n d ic a t e d e a r l i e r i n t h is

a ffi d a v i t M o ts o e n e n g m a d e a l l c r i t ic a l d e c is i o n s a s
t h e y r e l a t e t o S A B C a n d p o l i tic s .

It was him that

r e p o r t e d a n d i t w a s h i s i n s tr u c ti o n s th a t I u l ti m a t e ly
c a r r i e d o u t a n d t h e r e p o r t c o n fir m s M o ts o e n e n g

10

fir m l y e s t a b l is h e d th a t h e a s th e C O O h a s th e fi n a l
r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r n e w s .

I a c c o r d i n g ly r e p e a t th e

c o n te n ts

15

of

paragraphs

and

16

above

for

M r Kr ig e ’s c o n te n ts . I a ls o c o n f ir m t h a t I te n d e r e d
m y r e s i g n a ti o n b e f o r e t h e d e c is i o n t o d i s mi s s t h e
S A B C e i g h t w a s ta k e n o r i m p le m e n t e d . ”
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE:

J a , t h is is v e r y s a d th a t t h e n e w s r o o m

w a s n o t p r o t e c t e d a t t h a t s t a g e . I f - if M r J i m i M a tt h e w s s a id t h a t - t h a t
M r H la u d i M o ts o e n e n g h a d t h e fi n a l s a y a b o u t n e w s a n d i t is m a y b e ju s t
20

a n in d ic a t i o n o f w h a t - w h a t w a s g o i n g o n i n th e n e w s r o o m ? Yo u m u s t
r e m e m b e r a t t h a t s ta g e w e w e r e n o t i n fo r m e d t h a t t h e C E O is n o t t h e
d e f a c t o h e a d o f - o f n e w s o r th e E d it o r in C h i e f .
A t t h a t s ta g e th e S A B C h a d n o t t o ld a n y o n e a s f a r a s I k n o w
t h a t - t h a t th e r e w a s a c h a n g e i n t h e E d it o r ia l P o lic y b u t j a .
r e s ig n e d .

He

T h a t I a g r e e w i t h b e fo r e th e d e c i s i o n t o d is m is s b u t t h e r e

Page 170 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
w a s n o o n e n o t o n e li n e m a n a g e r n o t o n e p e r s o n i n t h e S A B C t h a t
s t o o d u p a n d d e f e n d e d a n y - a n y o f t h e d is m is s a ls o r a n y - a n y o f th e
suspensions. Not one and he was part of that.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u Mr Kr i g e . C h a ir ju s t to g o t o
t h e i n fo r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e tr a n s c r ip t s .

W e d o h a v e a r e c o r d in g o f t h e

m e e ti n g t h a t M r K r i g e d i d h i g h l ig h t b u t h o w e v e r t h a t r e c o r d i n g fr o m
w h a t I h a v e b e e n i n fo r m e d i s n o t c l e a r e n o u g h .

H o w e v e r i f t h e C h a ir

w a n ts t o h a v e a l is t e n t o i t w e c a n p r o v i d e th e C h a ir w i t h t h a t
r e c o r d i n g . H o w e v e r y o u k n o w I h a v e b e e n to l d b y t h e t e c h - b y …
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Is it a n y t h i n g f o r w h i c h t h e r e is a t r a n s c r i p t a lr e a d y

here?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: No the - it has not - there has not - it is
f o r - i t is f o r w h a t is s a i d i n M r K r i g e ’s s t a te m e n t . Th e r e h a s n o t b e e n
a n y d is p u t e o f t h e a u th e n t ic i ty o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t th e r e c o r d i n g th a t y o u
are talking about.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s it a r e c o r d i n g i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h w e a lr e a d y h a v e
a transcript here?
20

MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: Ja.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w i f - i f t h e r e i s a tr a n s c r i p t i t i s - i t is o k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d i n - w e l l p a r a g r a p h s 2 4 to 2 5

Page 171 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
s p e a k s a b o u t t h e t r a n s c r i b e r - h o w - h o w t h e s e w e r e t r a n s c r i b e d in y o u r
a ffi d a v i t a n d s o fo r t h a n d y o u d id h a n d in a r e c o r d i n g t o t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s . H o w e v e r a s w e r e la y e d i t w a s n o t c le a r e n o u g h f o r u s t o
p l a y b u t it is a tr u e r e f l e c ti o n o f w h a t is s t a te d i n y o u r a ff id a v i t?
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : It is C h a ir, ja .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d t h a t w o u ld c o n c lu d e t h e e n d o f

M r Kr ig e ’s a ffi d a v i t a s w e ll . M r Kr ig e i f t h e r e i s a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u w o u ld
lik e t o a d d o n t o p o f - i f t h e r e is a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u f e e l th a t w e h a v e n o t
r e l a y e d b u t w e h a v e c o m e t o t h e e n d o f y o u r - o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
10

M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : M a y b e j u s t o n e t h i n g a n d r e f e r r in g b a c k to
M r M a tt h e w s ’

argument

or

a ffi d a v it

is

that

-

th a t

people

must

u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h e n e w s r o o m a t th a t s t a g e th e r e w a s a t o x i c f e a r.
T h e r e w a s u n c e r t a i n ty. W e - t h e r e w a s n o p r o t e c ti o n f r o m a n y o n e . N o t
M r M a tt h e w s . N o t M r Te b e l e .
N o t M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d it w a s a v e r y, v e r y d i ff ic u l t s i tu a ti o n
t o w o r k - w o r k i n a n d I t h in k i f I c a n j u s t m e n t i o n w h a t h a p p e n e d
y e s t e r d a y w i th M s P h a th is w a M a g o p e n i t h e n e w H e a d o f N e w s . T h a t i s
- t h a t is t h e s o r t o f le a d e r s h i p th a t w e n e e d in a n e w s r o o m a n d y o u
n e e d a n e w s r o o m t h a t i s b u l l e t p r o o f.
20

T h a t is fr e e fr o m i n t e r f e r e n c e

w h e r e y o u c a n d o y o u r j o b a s a n y o t h e r j o u r n a l is t s h o u ld d o a n d t h a t
d i d n o t h a p p e n d u r i n g 2 0 1 6 . Th a t i s a ll I w a n t t o s a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir ju s t t o b r in g th e C h a i r ’s a tt e n ti o n
t o - w e d o h a v e a tr a n s c r i b e d - a t r a n s c r i p ti o n o f t h a t r e c o r d i n g . I t is
on page 121 of CC12.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is f i n e . T h a t i s f in e .

Page 172 of 173

04 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 156
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d th a t w o u ld c o n c l u d e t h e e v id e n c e

o f M r Kr i g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r Kr ig e f o r - f o r c o m i n g a n d

for sharing with the Commission your experiences.

Thank you very

much.
M R J A K O B D A N I E L K R I G E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
MR JAKOB DANIEL KRIGE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a n k y o u . To m o r r o w h o w m a n y w i t n e s s e s h a v e w e

got?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : W e h a v e g o t - a s fa r a s I k n o w w e h a v e
two witnesses.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e c o u l d s ta r t a t 1 0 ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. 1 0 o ’ c l o c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W e w i ll a d j o u r n th e p r o c e e d i n g s f o r t h e d a y

a n d w e w i ll s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k t o m o r r o w. W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 5 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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