C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 06 FEBRUARY 2020 D AY 2 0 8 20 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 6 FEBRUARY 2020 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : We are indeed. C h a ir M r M b i k i w a w i ll b e p r e s e n t in g t h e e v id e n c e o f t o d a y ’s w i t n e s s Mr H u m a n b u t t h e r e a r e a f e w p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c ts I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o d e a l w i t h a t th e o u ts e t o f today with your leave? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir s i n c e y e s t e r d a y w e r e c e i v e d t h r e e r e s p o n s e s fr o m i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r H u m a n a n d I in d i c a t e d e a r li e r i n th e w e e k w e w o u ld u p d a t e y o u a s a n d w h e n t h a t o c c u r r e d . C h a ir th e y a r e r e s p o n s e s fr o m M s K w i n a n a , M s M e m e l a a n d S w is s p o r t S o u t h A fr ic a a n d I w il l d e a l w i t h e a c h o f t h e m i n a l i tt l e b i t m o r e d e t a i l i n a m o m e n t . B u t t h e r e w a s a n is s u e th a t w a s r a is e d in t h e c o u r s e o f t h e h e a r in g s y e s t e r d a y a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s f o r R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s a n d t h e t y p e s o f r e s p o n s e s th a t a r e r e c e iv e d fr o m i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s . A n d t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t w a s r a is e d w i t h u s w a s , is i t a d e q u a t e t h a t t h e r e s p o n s e f r o m t h e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n c o m e o n – a s a s t a t e m e n t 20 a s o p p o s e d t o a n a ffi d a v i t d e p o s e d t o u n d e r o a t h ? C h a ir w e lo o k e d a t t h e v a r io u s p r o v i s i o n s o f th e R u le s a n d w e h a v e a l s o c o n s id e r e d t h e p r a c ti c e t h a t h a s b e e n f o l l o w e d b y t h e c o m m is s i o n to d a t e . I w o u l d li k e t o a d d r e s s j u s t b o t h o f t h e m . T h e R u l e s t h e m s e l v e s i n R u l e 3 .3 w h ic h is t h e R u le t h a t r e q u ir e s n o ti c e t o b e g iv e n t o i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s is a R u l e t h a t r e q u ir e s th e l e g a l t e a m to g i v e n o t ic e t o i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s Page 2 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w h e n t h e y i n t e n d to p r e s e n t t o t h e c o m m is s i o n a w i t n e s s w h o s e e v i d e n c e i m p l ic a t e s o r m a y i m p li c a t e t h a t p e r s o n . A n d th e n w h a t R u l e 3 .4 s a y s – o h I s h o u l d j u s t a d d b e fo r e I g o o n . “ T h a t n o tic e i d e n t i fi e s fo r i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n t h a t t h e y h a v e c e r t a i n r ig h ts a n d t h e n th e y c a n a ls o s e e k l e a v e t o d o c e r t a i n th i n g s . T h e r i g h ts a r e t o a t t e n d a t t h e h e a r in g a n d to h a v e a le g a l – h a v e l e g a l a s s is t a n c e . ” T h e – t h e o p p o r t u n i ty o ff e r e d s u b je c t t o y o u r l e a v e is t o p r e s e n t e v i d e n c e t h e m s e l v e s , t o b r in g t h e e v i d e n c e o f a n o t h e r p e r s o n o r to 10 c r o s s - e x a m in e th e w i t n e s s . N o w w h a t 3 . 4 t h e n s a y s : “ R u l e 3 . 4 i s t h a t a n a p p l ic a ti o n in t e r m s o f R u l e 3 . 3 t h a t i s a n a p p li c a t io n to o n e o f t h o s e t h r e e t h i n g s m u s t b e s u b m i t t e d i n w r i ti n g t o t h e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i t h i n 1 4 c a le n d a r d a y s f r o m t h e d a t e o f t h e n o t ic e r e f e r r e d to in R u l e 3 . 3 . ” And it goes on to read: “The a p p l ic a t i o n must be accompanied by a s t a te m e n t fr o m t h e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e w i t n e s s ’s s t a te m e n t in s o f a r a s i t i m p l ic a t e s h i m 20 o r h e r a n d t h e s t a t e m e n t m u s t m a k e i t c le a r w h a t p a r t s o f t h e w i t n e s s ’s s ta t e m e n t a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n ie d a n d t h e g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h t h o s e p a r ts a r e d is p u te d o r d e n i e d . ” C h a ir t h e R u le 3 . 3 N o tic e s t h a t a r e s e n t o u t b y th e l e g a l te a m o f t h e c o m m i s s io n r e p lic a t e t h is l a n g u a g e fr o m R u l e 3 . 4 a n d s o i n o th e r w o r d s Page 3 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w h a t t h a t n o ti c e d o e s is i t a l e r ts t h e i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n t h a t i n o r d e r t o r e s p o n d a n d to m a k e s u c h a p p lic a ti o n t h e y m u s t d o s o i n w r i ti n g a c c o m p a n i e d – a n a p p li c a t io n i n w r i ti n g a c c o m p a n i e d b y a s t a te m e n t . C h a ir it is o u r s u b m i s s i o n t o d a y t h a t i n s o f a r a s i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s h a v e p r e v i o u s ly r e c e i v e d n o tic e s i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h t h e y h a v e b e e n t o l d t h a t t h e y m u s t p r o v i d e a s t a t e m e n t a s o p p o s e d t o a n a ff id a v i t d e p o s e d t o u n d e r o a t h i t w o u l d b e a p p r o p r i a t e t h a t t h o s e s t a t e m e n t s b e r e c e iv e d a n d w h e r e i t is u s e f u l b e c a u s e th e y h a v e r e c e iv e d in a d v a n c e o f w i t n e s s ’s e v id e n c e t o th e n u s e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty in t h e h e a r i n g t o p u t th a t 10 v e r s i o n a l b e i t o n s ta t e m e n t t o t h e w i tn e s s fo r c o m m e n t . C h a i r it m a y w e ll b e – y o u r a is e d in t h e c o u r s e o f t h e d e b a t e y e s t e r d a y w i t h my le a r n e d fr i e n d th a t t h e r e is t h a t c a tc h o r g e n e r a l p r o v is i o n i n t h e r u le s t h a t i s R u l e 11 t h a t t a lk s a b o u t w h e n e v e r t h e R u l e s – t h is is 11 .3 . “ W h e n e v e r t h e R u l e s m a k e p r o v is io n f o r a p e r s o n t o a p p ly to t h e c o m m i s s io n o r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e a p p lic a ti o n m u s t b e a s u b s ta n ti v e a p p l ic a t io n o n a ffi d a v i t w i t h a N o t ic e o f M o t io n . ” C h a ir it m a y b e t h a t g o in g f o r w a r d i t w o u l d b e a p p r o p r i a te i t is o u r s u b m is s io n f o r s o m e r e v is i o n to b e m a d e t o t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s t h a t 20 g o o u t to m a k e i t c l e a r t h a t t h e r e – a n y a p p lic a ti o n i n t e r m s o f 3 . 4 s h o u l d n o n e th e le s s b e o n a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e t h e n I t h i n k a s y o u w e r e h i g h l ig h ti n g y e s a t l e a s t y o u h a v e a d e p o s e d t o v e r s i o n a n d a w i tn e s s ’s version under oath. B u t i t w o u l d b e o u r s u b m is s io n fo r t o d a y ’s p u r p o s e s a n d g iv e n t h e p r a c t ic e t h a t h a s b e e n f o ll o w e d p r e v i o u s ly t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n a c k n o w le d g e s th a t i t h a s r e c e iv e d s t a te m e n ts f r o m Page 4 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s a n d w h e r e r e le v a n t th a t t h o s e s t a t e m e n t s b e p u t i n t h e c o u r s e o f M r H u m a n ’s e v i d e n c e to d a y. B u t b e fo r e I g o t h e r e I w o u ld ju s t lik e to m a k e o n e f u r th e r p o in t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e s p e c i fic a p p lic a ti o n s th a t h a v e b e e n r e c e iv e d in r e l a ti o n t o M r H u m a n . B e c a u s e e v e n if t h e r e w a s a r e m a i n in g c o n c e r n o n y o u r p a r t a b o u t a v e r s i o n n o t u n d e r o a t h a n d a v e r s io n u n d e r o a t h i t a c t u a lly d o e s n o t a r i s e i n t o d a y ’s c a s e a n d I w o u ld li k e t o e x p l a in w h y. T h e fi r s t a p p l ic a ti o n – o r a t l e a s t t h e fi r s t s t a te m e n t r e c e iv e d is n o t a n a p p l ic a t i o n t o c r o s s e x a m in e M r H u m a n . 10 I t is a s t a t e m e n t r e c e i v e d b y M s K w i n a n a i n r e s p o n s e t o Mr H u m a n ’s a ffi d a v it . N o w M s K w i n a n a d e a l s b r i e fly w i t h s o m e o f th e a s p e c ts . I t i s o u r p r o p o s a l th a t w e p u t t h o s e p o in ts w h e r e r e l e v a n t t o t h e m a t t e r s t h a t w e w ill b e fo c u s s i n g t o d a y to M r H u m a n . B u t I a ls o t h i n k i t is n e c e s s a r y t o i n d ic a te t h a t i t i s t h e i n te n ti o n o f t h e le g a l te a m o f th e c o m m i s s io n c e r t a i n l y i n d u e c o u r s e t o p r e s e n t th e e v i d e n c e o f M s K w in a n a i n th e s e h e a r i n g s a n d I c a n in d ic a t e to y o u C h a ir t h a t w e a r e e n g a g e d w it h h e r a t th e m o m e n t a b o u t m e e t i n g w i t h h e r a n d fa c i li t a t i n g th a t . S o i n t h a t r e s p e c t t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o r is k o f a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e y o u h a v e a v e r s io n fr o m h e r n o t u n d e r o a t h a n d a v e r s i o n fr o m M r H u m a n u n d e r o a t h . C h a ir th e s a m e a p p l ie s in r e l a ti o n 20 t o M s M e m e l a . M s M e m e l a d o e s b r i n g a n a p p lic a ti o n t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r H u m a n b u t M s M e m e l a h a s b e e n s u m m o n e d t o a p p e a r t o m o r r o w. A n d d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t h a p p e n s i n r e la t io n t o a n y a p p lic a ti o n s h e m a y b r i n g i t i s c e r ta i n ly t h e i n te n ti o n t h a t h e r v e r s i o n a l s o b e p r o v i d e d t o t h is c o m m is s i o n u n d e r o a t h . A n d s o w e a d v a n c e i n o u r s u b m is s i o n t h e in t e r c h a n g e b e t w e e n h e r a n d th e d i s p u t e d v e r s i o n s b y p u t ti n g th e m f ir s t Page 5 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 to Mr Human and then addressing them tomorrow with her in her evidence. C h a ir t h e fi n a l r e s p o n s e w a s a r e s p o n s e fr o m S w i s s p o r t S o u th A f r ic a . N o w S w i s s p o r t S o u t h A fr ic a h a s i n d i c a t e d t h a t i t is s t il l i n t h e p r o c e s s o f c o n s i d e r i n g Mr H u m a n ’s a ffi d a v it b u t t h e y h a v e d r a w n t h e c o m m i s s i o n s a t t e n t io n t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h e fo r m e r C E O o f S w is s p o r t S o u th A fr ic a M r C o l e w h o is n o t c u r r e n tl y p r e s e n t in S o u t h A f r i c a . I t h i n k h e is n o w w o r k in g f o r t h e m i n t h e U n i t e d S t a te s h a s s u p p l ie d a n a ffi d a v i t t o t h e c o m m is s i o n i n t h e c o u r s e o f i ts i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . I t h i n k w e r e c e i v e d i t l a s t w e e k . A n d s o a l l t h a t t h e y h a v e d o n e is t h a t t h e y 10 h a v e h i g h l ig h te d th e p a r ts o f th e ir a ff id a v i t p r e v io u s ly s u p p li e d w h ic h t h e y s a y a r e r e s p o n s e t o M r H u m a n ’s e v id e n c e a n d s o i t is o n t h a t b a s is t h a t w e p r o p o s e t o p u t t h e ir r e s p o n s e s . I s h o u l d a ls o j u s t n o t e t h a t t h e ir c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i th t h e c o m m is s io n y e s t e r d a y i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e y w il l c o n ti n u e t o c o n s i d e r h is a ffi d a v i t – t h e y h a v e n o t c o m p le t e d d o i n g s o y e s a n d i f n e c e s s a r y t h e y w i ll a p p ly t o s u p p l e m e n t M r C o l e ’s fir s t a ff id a v i t i f th e y d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y. C h a ir w i th t h a t b a c k g r o u n d i n place we propose along the lines that I have described to conduct the p r o c e e d i n g s t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: 20 N o t h a t is fi n e . T h e o n e a s p e c t t h a t I w a n t to r a is e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e i s s u e o f s t a te m e n ts th a t a r e n o t u n d e r o a th o r t h a t a r e n o t a ffir m e d is w h e t h e r s o m e o f th e s t a t e m e n ts y o u h a v e r e c e i v e d s u c h a s m a y b e fr o m M s M e m e l a a n d Ms K w in a n a a n d m a y b e fr o m a n y i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n t h a t m a y h a v e r e s p o n d e d t o 3 . 3 N o t ic e s b e f o r e w h e t h e r i t is s i m p ly a s t a t e m e n t w i t h o u t – i t i s s i m p l y a s t a t e m e n t t h a t is n o t a n a p p lic a ti o n f o r le a v e to a c c u s e d ’s e v i d e n c e o r fo r l e a v e t o Page 6 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 c r o s s - e x a m in e b e c a u s e th e r e m a y b e a n a r g u m e n t th a t 11 . 3 m a y b e d o e s n o t a p p ly to a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e s o m e b o d y d o e s n o t a p p l y f o r le a v e t o a d d u c e e v i d e n c e o r to c r o s s - e x a m i n e o r t o c a ll w i tn e s s e s b u t s i m p ly s a y s , h e r e is m y s i d e o f t h e s t o r y w h a t y o u d o w i t h i t i s u p to y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: S o t o t h e e x t e n t th a t – t h a t m i g h t b e t h e p o s i ti o n i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y t h a t th e R u l e s b e a m e n d e d b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h a t w h e n s o m e b o d y – w h e n a w i t n e s s h a s t a k e n t h e tr o u b le t o g o u n d e r o a th i n r e g a r d t o w h a t th e y te ll t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n y b o d y w h o w a n ts t o 10 c h a l le n g e t h e ir e v i d e n c e s h o u l d ta k e t h e s a m e tr o u b le a n d a ls o g o under oath. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t – w e s h o u l d n o t h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e w i t n e s s h a s g o n e t o t h e tr o u b l e o f g o i n g u n d e r o a t h a n d s o m e b o d y j u s t s e n d s u s a l e t te r o r ju s t a s t a te m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Where there would be no – no consequences if what is c o n t a i n e d t h e r e is n o t tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: S o w e m ig h t n e e d t o a m e n d t h e R u l e s t o c o v e r t h a t s i tu a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a l l th o s e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s w h o r e s p o n d e d t o – Page 7 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w h o h a v e r e s p o n d e d i n t h e p a s t a n d m a y c o n t in u e t o r e s p o n d in t h e f u t u r e t o 3 . 3 N o tic e s t h a t d o n o t c a l l u p o n t h e m t o p u t t h e ir s ta t e m e n ts o n a ffi d a v it . T h o s e w il l b e a c c e p t e d a n d b e d e a l t w i t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O n t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t it is t h e 3 .3 N o tic e s t h a t d i d n o t r e q u i r e t h e m t o p u t th a t u n d e r o a t h . B u t o n c e t h e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s have been amended then everybody would need to make sure. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e ir s t a t e m e n ts a r e u n d e r o a t h . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a t l e a s t I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e h a v e c le a r e d it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t a r o s e y e s t e r d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t o n th e fa c tu a l q u e s t io n a s t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 T h e o n e s th a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d i n r e l a ti o n to t h is e v i d e n c e t h e o n l y c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n a p p li c a t io n s a r e t h e o n e s fr o m Ms Memela. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n r e s p e c t o f M s S a m b o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s t e r d a y a n d i n r e s p e c t o f Mr H u m a n . Page 8 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e s t a r e j u s t s t a t e m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n r e s p o n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O r i n th e c a s e o f M r C o l e a n a ffi d a v it . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr e v io u s ly p r o v i d e d i n r e s p o n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t g iv e n t h a t Ms M e m e l a h a s b e e n s u m m o n e d t o t e s t if y t o m o r r o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s e e m s t o m e w e c a n a d d r e s s t h o s e a s p e c ts . CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G iv e n th a t s h e w i ll b e g o i n g u n d e r o a t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w i ll h a n d o v e r t o M r M b ik i w a 20 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Mr Mbikiwa. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir c o u l d I ju s t h a v e m o m e n t t o g e t m y fi le s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H m . Page 9 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir I a m – w e a r e r e a d y p r o c e e d w i t h th e witness. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e a d m in is t e r t h e o a t h o r a ff ir m a t io n ? R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R H U M A N : I t i s Sc h a l k H e n d r ik H u m a n . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? M R H U M A N : N o o b je c t i o n . 10 REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R H U M A N : Ye s I d o . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . MR HUMAN: So help me God. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir m a y I a s k t h a t t h e fi le s l a b e ll e d – w e l l t h e fi le s c o n t a i n i n g Mr H u m a n ’s a ff id a v i t a n d 20 a n n e x u r e s b e a d m i t t e d a s E x h i b i ts D D 2 2 a t o D D 2 2 g ? C H A I R P E R S O N : B u p t o G a r e th e y t h e r e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e y s h o u l d b e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a r e t h e y a ll a n n e x u r e s t o h is s t a t e m e n t ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e y a r e a ll a n n e x u r e s t o h is s t a t e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : To h is s t a t e m e n t . Page 10 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W it h – w i t h a s m a ll s e c t io n in G f o r a d d it i o n a l d o c u m e n ts s u c h a s th e s t a t e m e n ts t h a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d i n response. C H A I R P E R S O N : In G ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n G . CHAIRPERSON: B u t u p t o F i t i s a n n e x u r e s to h i s s ta t e m e n t? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i n c lu d in g m o s t o f G is a n n e x u r e s – y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In c l u d i n g m o s t o f G ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e f il e c o n t a in in g M r S c h a l k H e n d r ik H u m a n ’s a ffi d a v i t w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t D D 2 2 a t o g e t h e r w it h th e a n n e x u r e s c o n ta in e d i n t h a t fi le . T h e o t h e r f il e s m a r k e d D D – E x h ib i t D D 2 2 b t o g c o n ta in a n n e x u r e s t o h is a ffi d a v it a n d t h e y w i ll b e m a r k e d a c c o r d i n g ly b u t it is r e c o r d e d th a t G – t h a t is D D 2 g c o n ta in s n o t o n ly h is a n n e x u r e s b u t a l s o o th e r d o c u m e n t s . J a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r H u m a n c a n I a s k y o u t o o p e n t h e fi le t h a t s h o u l d b e in fr o n t o f y o u la b e l le d D D 2 2 a ? C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n t o t h e 20 fir s t p a g e a n d y o u w il l s e e t h e r e d n u m b e r s in t h e t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r. T h o s e a r e t h e p a g e n u m b e r s t h a t I w i ll b e r e f e r r in g y o u t o d u r i n g th e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v id e n c e . W e w ill fo r t h e m o s t p a r t b e w i t h i n t h is fil e b u t d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e I w il l t a k e y o u t o o th e r d o c u m e n ts i n t h e f il e s t h a t s h o u l d b e a lo n g s i d e y o u . C a n I a s k y o u t o turn to page 54? I s t h i s t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u p r o v id e d t o t h e Page 11 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 c o m m i s s io n ? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i s t h a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e ? M R H U M A N : Ye s i t is . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e a ffi d a v i t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? MR HUMAN: I do. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . M r H u m a n y o u r – y o u r a ff i d a v i t d e a ls i n s o m e d e t a i l w i th a v a r i e ty o f is s u e s a n d t h e fu ll c h r o n o l o g y o f 10 e v e n t s a n d i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r u s to tr a v e r s e m o s t o f t h o s e m a t t e r s . Subject to th e C h a i r ’s d ir e c ti o n both because much of it is u n c o n t e n t io u s b a c k g r o u n d m a te r i a l a n d a ls o b e c a u s e m u c h o f i t w a s d e a lt w i t h b y y e s t e r d a y ’s w i t n e s s , M s S a m b o . I n s t e a d I in t e n d t o t a k e y o u t o p a r ti c u la r a s p e c ts w h e r e y o u r e x p e r ti s e a n d e x p e r ie n c e w il l h e l p t o s h e d s o m e li g h t o n t h e p r o c e s s . C a n y o u b e g i n b y t e l li n g u s a b o u t y o u r q u a l i fic a ti o n s ? MR HUMAN: Ye s S ir I h o l d a B a c h e lo r ’s D e g r e e a n d a D ip l o m a i n Fi n a n c i a l a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n . P u b li c Fi n a n c i a l M a n a g e m e n t a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t is y o u r e m p l o y m e n t h is t o r y ? MR HUMAN: I w a s e m p lo y e d a t t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l f o r 1 0 y e a r s . T h e r e a f te r j o i n e d t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n t h e o ff ic e o f t h e A c c o u n ta n t G e n e r a l fo r 5 y e a r s . T h e r e a f te r i n t h e o ff ic e o f th e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r a n d s e r v e d a s t h e a c ti n g C h i e f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r f o r 1 8 m o n th s o d d u n d e r M i n i s te r G o r d h a n a n d N e n e r e s p e c tiv e ly. Page 12 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d – a n d te ll u s s o m e th i n g a b o u t w h a t th a t r o l e i n v o lv e d ? M R H U M A N : T h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r is r e s p o n s i b le f o r t h e le g a l and r e g u la t o r y fr a m e w o r k in p u b li c sector procurement. It is r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e g o v e r n a n c e o f t h o s e p r o c e s s e s a n d it is r e s p o n s i b l e t o e n s u r e t h a t tr a n s v e r s a l c o n t r a c t s a p p li c a b l e t o th e w h o l e g o v e r n m e n t are tendered, e v a lu a t e d and a d j u d ic a t e d . The o ffi c e manages a p p r o x i m a te ly R 8 0 B il li o n o f tr a n s v e r s a l t e n d e r s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d o y o u c u r r e n tly h o l d ? 10 MR HUMAN: I a m c u r r e n t ly th e a c ti n g H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t i n th e Te c h n i c a l M a t e r i a ls D e p a r t m e n t a t S A A Te c h n i c a l r e s p o n s i b le fo r procurement, l o g is ti c s , warehouse and storage and in v e n t o r y management. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l i s a n d w h a t i t d o e s ? MR HUMAN: S o u th A fr ic a n Te c h n ic a l is a s ta t e o w n e d c o m p a n y c h a r g e d w it h t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y o f m a i n ta in i n g a ir c r a f t . I t s m a in c u s t o m e r is S A A a n d i t i s a ls o 1 0 0 % o w n e d b y t h e – b y S A A . It s p e c i a lis e s i n m a i n te n a n c e , r e p a ir a n d o v e r a l l a c t iv it i e s , s c h e d u l e d 20 m a in t e n a n c e a s w e l l a s u n s c h e d u le d m a i n te n a n c e a n d it s e r v e s a n u m b e r o f c u s t o m e r s . T h e m a in c u s t o m e r is S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s b u t w e a ls o h a v e a h e a l t h y p o r tf o li o th ir d p a r t y c u s t o m e r s lik e M a n g o , C o m A i r a n d a f e w o t h e r a ir l in e s li k e A ir N a m i b i a to n a m e a f e w. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o w M r H u m a n y o u h a v e – y o u h a v e s p o k e n in y o u r a ff i d a v i t a b o u t t h e a p p r o a c h y o u h a v e t a k e n t o y o u r e v i d e n c e Page 13 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 a n d i n p a r ti c u l a r t h o s e is s u e s th a t y o u d o a n d d o n o t h a v e p e r s o n a l knowledge of. C a n y o u g iv e u s a n o v e r v ie w o f – o f h o w – w h a t a p p r o a c h y o u h a v e t a k e n t o p u t ti n g t o g e t h e r a c h r o n o l o g y o f e v e n t s ? MR HUMAN: A b s o l u t e ly. C h a ir I w a s n o t e m p lo y e d a t S A AT a n d t h e ti m e o f th e a w a r d o f th e s e t e n d e r s . I s ta r t e d m y e m p l o y m e n t o n t h e 2 5 J u l y 2 0 1 8 a n d m y a p p r o a c h w a s i n c o m p i l in g t h i s a ffi d a v it to b a s e th e s t a te m e n ts o n w r i t te n d o c u m e n ta t io n a v a i la b l e t o m e . Th e c o n t e n t o f f o r e n s ic r e p o r ts a n d th e M i n u te s o f t h e P r o c u r e m e n t a n d B o a r d Committees. My approach was to capture the document – the sequence 10 a n d c h r o n o lo g y o f e v e n ts b a s e d o n t h e s e d o c u m e n t s a n d r e p o r ts . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . C a n w e th e n m o v e t o c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r s ? A n d w e c a n p ic k th a t u p a t y o u r a ff id a v i t o n p a g e 5 . C a n y o u e x p l a in b r o a d ly s p e a k i n g w h a t a c o n tr a c t f o r t h e p r o v is i o n o f c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t s e r v ic e s is ? MR HUMAN: C e r t a in ly. C h a i r p e r s o n i n t h e m a i n te n a n c e o f a ir c r a f t is q u i te e x p e n s iv e . S o t o h o l d e x c e s s iv e s t o c k e s p e c i a l ly o f w h a t w e c a l l r o ta b le c o m p o n e n ts i t is q u i te e x p e n s iv e . Ve r y f e w a ir li n e s i n t h e w o r l d h a s th e c a p i t a l m e a n s o r t h e m o n e t a r y m e a n s t o b u y e x c e s s iv e s t o c k . S o a p o o l c o n tr a c t o r a c o m p o n e n t c o n tr a c t is w h e r e i n v e n t o r y w o u l d b e 20 c e n tr a li s e d b y a s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r a n d t h o s e w h o w o u l d lik e t o u s e t h e s e r v ic e p a y a p r e m i u m o n a m o n t h ly b a s is u s u a l ly a f li g h t h o u r r a t e . T h a t i s e v e r y h o u r t h a t t h e a ir c r a f t f li e s . A s p e c i f ic a g r e e d u p o n r a te w o u ld b e p a i d f o r t h e u s e o f c o m p o n e n ts . Th e b e n e fi t f o r m a i n t e n a n c e a n d r e p a ir o r g a n i s a t io n i s th a t i f t h e r e is a f a il u r e o n a c o m p o n e n t y o u h a v e t h e b e n e fi t t o a c c e s s a r e p l a c e m e n t p a r t q u it e q u i c k l y w i t h i n d a y s . Page 14 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 W h i l e i f y o u s e n d i t f o r a r e p a i r it m ig h t t a k e u p t o t h r e e m o n t h s o r e v e n l o n g e r d e p e n d i n g o n t h e c o m p l e x it y. S o p a r ti c i p a t i n g i n a p o o l c o n tr a c t p r o v i d e s t h e o p p o r tu n it y t o h a v e s p a r e s a v a il a b l e s o t h a t a ir c r a f t a r e s e r v i c e a b l e a n d a v a il a b l e t o b e d e p l o y e d i n t o s e r v ic e . T h e r e is u s u a lly t h r e e c o m p o n e n ts C h a ir I h a v e in t e r r u p te d y o u I t h i n k . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o c o n ti n u e I w il l a s k y o u a f t e r y o u a r e d o n e . MR HUMAN: O k a y. Th e r e is u s u a ll y th r e e c o m p o n e n t s . A b a s e k it . T h a t is a l is t o f c o r e c o m p o n e n ts t h a t t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w o u l d p u t o n s i te – o n t h e p r e m i s e s o f th e o r g a n is a ti o n s o t h a t y o u c a n a c c e s s i t 10 within hours. The second would be advance exchange service. One w o u ld r e q u e s t a s p e c i f ic p a r t . It w il l b e s h i p p e d to y o u r p r e m is e s a n d y o u h a v e to r e t u r n a c o r e u n i t , t h e u n s e r v ic e a b le o n e , t h e o n e t h a t is o u t o f s e r v ic e . T h e th ir d a s p e c t is r e p a i r s e r v i c e s . W h e n y o u h a v e a c o m p o n e n t t h a t h a s b e c o m e u n s e r v i c e a b l e i t is s e n t t o a r e p a ir s h o p o f t h e s u p p l ie r a n d o n c e i t i s r e p a i r e d it w i ll b e r e t u r n e d t o th e o r g a n i s a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y t h is is a p o o l a r r a n g e m e n t ? M R H U M A N : Ye s S ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 D o e s t h a t m e a n t h a t t h e r e w o u l d a s u p p li e r a n d t h is s u p p li e r w o u l d h a v e a r r a n g e m e n ts o r c o n tr a c ts w it h d i ff e r e n t a ir l in e s f o r e x a m p l e o f c o m p a n i e s a n d t h e y a l l lo o k t o th is s u p p l i e r fo r p a r t s w h e n e v e r n e e d a r is e s ? A n d t h e o b l ig a ti o n o f t h e s u p p li e r is t o a l w a y s h a v e th e p a r ts t h a t m a y b e n e e d e d b y t h e c o m p a n i e s t h a t a r e – t h a t h a v e c o n tr a c ts w i t h t h e m , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 15 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u s a y a n a ir l in e w o u l d n o t l ik e t o k e e p i ts o w n s t o c k b e c a u s e t h a t is v e r y e x p e n s iv e ? M R H U M A N : H u n d r e d s o f m i ll i o n s o f R a n d w o r t h i n s t o c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : pricing works? A n d j u s t e x p la in f o r u s h o w t h e – h o w t h e W e h e a r d fr o m M s S a m b o y e s t e r d a y r e f e r e n c e t o P B H o r I t h i n k s h e s a i d i t w a s P o w e r b y t h e H o u r. J u s t e x p la i n w h a t t h a t is ? MR HUMAN: T h a t is c o r r e c t i t – P o w e r b y th e H o u r is a g e n e r a lly r e c o g n is e d t e r m i n t h e in d u s tr y a n d t h a t i s a r a t e a g r e e d b e tw e e n t h e 10 s u p p li e r a n d th e r e c i p i e n t i n th is c a s e S A AT o n h o w m u c h y o u w o u l d p a y i n D o l la r s f o r e v e r y h o u r th e a ir c r a f t f l ie s . T h e in c e n ti v e i s t h e r e is n o r e v e n u e w h e n t h e a ir c r a f t is o n t h e g r o u n d . S o t h e i n c e n t iv e is o n t h e s u p p li e r t o m a k e s u r e t h a t q u a li ty c o m p o n e n ts a r e d e l iv e r e d q u i t e f a s t . I t i s d e s p a t c h e d w i th i n v e r y s h o r t s p a c e o f ti m e s o th a t i t e n a b l e r e v e n u e g e n e r a ti n g fli g h t h o u r s . T h e r a t e is u s u a ll y d e t e r m i n e d w it h a couple of elements. I t w il l b e th e p o o l a c c e s s a m o u n t. p r o v i s i o n m a d e f o r b e y o n d e c o n o m ic r e p a ir. T h e r e is a C h a ir i t h a p p e n s t h a t s p a r e s j u s t c o m e t o t h e e n d o f li f e a n d e v e n i f it is p o s s i b l e to r e p a ir t h e c o s t t h e r e o f w il l w e l l e x c e e d t h e e c o n o m i c v a lu e t h e r e o f . 20 So in s t e a d o f r e p l a c i n g th e f u ll f a i r m a r k e t v a l u e i t is a l m o s t l ik e i n s u r a n c e t h a t y o u p a y a n d i n c a s e i t f a il s o n l y a p e r c e n ta g e w o u l d b e a p p l ic a b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s t h a t i t h a p p e n s b u t v e r y r a r e ly th a t a p a r t t h a t h a s n o t c o m e t o t h e e n d o f i ts li f e ju s t f a ll s fr o m t h e s k y a s t h e a e r o p l a n e f li e s . I h e a r d s o m e t h i n g l ik e t h a t r e c e n t ly. M R H U M A N : N o c o m m e n t C h a ir. Page 16 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HUMAN: C h a ir i n r a r e s t o f o c c a s i o n s t h is m i g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d before. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr H u m a n c a n y o u – c a n y o u te ll u s s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w i t h i n S A A Te c h n ic a l a n d t h e s t a g e s th a t n e e d t o b e f o ll o w e d in o r d e r f o r a c o m p o n e n ts c o n tr a c t t o b e e n t e r e d i n to ? MR HUMAN: 10 A b s o lu t e l y. A s a s t a te o w n e d e n t it y – c o m p a n y w e fa ll w i t h i n t h e a m b i t o f t h e p r o v is io n s o f t h e P u b lic F i n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t a s a Sc h e d u le 2 e n ti ty. Th e A c t p r o v id e s f o r d i ff e r e n t i a t i o n b e t w e e n d e p a r t m e n ts , m u n ic i p a li t ie s , S c h e d u le 3 A a n d C e n t it i e s a n d t h e n b i g e n t i ti e s l ik e S A A , Tr a n s n e t , E s k o m . It is b a s e d o n t h e p r i n c i p l e s o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n i n S e c t io n 2 1 7 th a t a ll p r o c u r e m e n t s h o u l d b e o p e n , fa ir, tr a n s p a r e n t , e q u i t a b le a n d c o s t e ff e c t iv e . T h o s e a r e t h e p r i n c i p le s t h a t is a ls o b e i n g a d o p t e d i n t h e S u p p ly C h a i n P o l ic y o f t h e G r o u p a n d o f th e – o f t h e c o m p a n ie s t h a t i t o w n s . T h e p o l ic y t h e r e f o r e p r o v i d e s t h a t t e n d e r s o r a c q u is it io n s s o u r c i n g s h o u l d h a p p e n b y a d v e r ti s i n g b i d s o n it s w e b s i te , o n t h e Tr e a s u r y ’s E Te n d e r P o r t h o l e 20 o r i n t h e s t a te s Te n d e r – Te n d e r B u l l e t i n . I t a ll o w s fo r a m i n i m u m n u m b e r o f d a y s o b v i o u s ly to a ll o w a f a i r c h a n c e f o r s u p p l ie r s to p r e p a r e a q u a li ty, r e s p o n s i v e b id a n d s u c h p u b li c a ti o n i s b a s e d o n s o c a ll e d r e q u e s t fo r p r o p o s a l o r a r e q u e s t fo r b id a n d th is d o c u m e n t s p e c i f ie s t h e c r i ti c a l c r i t e r ia . I t i s r e a l ly a r ti c u l a ti n g t h e n e e d s o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d d is c l o s e s h o w s c o r i n g i n th is m a n n e r w i ll b e d o n e . Page 17 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 T h e p o l ic y f u r t h e r s t a t e s t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e s e g r e g a t io n o f d u ty a n d by that I mean that those who are charged in c o m p i li n g th e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s f o r s u c h a b i d s h o u l d n o t b e th e p e r s o n s t h a t i s a l s o r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e e v a lu a ti o n t h e r e o f . T h e r a ti o n a l e is b a s ic a l ly th a t o n e d o e s n o t d e s i g n a te n d e r f o r y o u r o w n i n te r e s t a n d fo r a s p e c i f ic - b u y e r s f o r a p r o d u c t . The t h ir d c o m p u ls o r y c o m m i t t e e is a B id A d j u d i c a ti o n C o m m i t t e e a n d a ls o i n t h is c a s e t h e m e m b e r s a r e n o t t h e s a m e w it h t h e in t e n t th a t t h e r e i s s e g r e g a ti o n o f d u t y. 10 A s a n e x tr a g o v e r n a n c e m e a s u r e t h e p o lic y p r o v i d e s fo r a d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty. I t is t h r e s h o ld d r iv e n . I t is b a s e d o n v a l u e s o f t e n d e r w h e r e h i g h v a lu e t e n d e r s a r e r e f e r r e d t o t h e B o a r d - th e r e l e v a n t B o a r d . In t h is c a s e i t w i ll b e S o u t h A fr ic a n Ai r w a y s Te c h n i c a l B o a r d fo r f i n a l a p p r o v a l . T h e p r o c e s s w ill t h e n u p o n a w a r d r e s u lt i n t h e f i n a li s a t io n o f a c o n tr a c t . T h is - s t i p u la t in g t h e c o n d i ti o n s t h a t w a s a d v e r t is e d . Ty p i c a ll y a s e r v ic e l e v e l a g r e e m e n t d e p ic ti n g p e r f o r m a n c e a s p e c ts w o u l d b e in c l u d e d a n d t h e n th e p r o c e s s w i ll p r o g r e s s t o c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t a n d s u p p li e r p e r f o r m a n c e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w i th in t h a t p r o c e s s w h e r e - w h e r e d o e s 20 t h e C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l S o u r c i n g Te a m fi t ? M R H U M A N : D u r in g 2 0 1 6 t h e S A A a n d S A AT p o l ic ie s a ls o p r o v i d e d fo r a s o c a l le d C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l S o u r c i n g Te a m a n d in th e c a s e o f S A AT t h is group of people were responsible fo r b o th s p e c i f ic a ti o n a s w e l l a s c o n d u c ti n g t h e e v a l u a t io n . c o m p il i n g the In 2 0 1 6 th e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y is s u e d a n in s tr u c ti o n 3 o f 2 0 1 6 s p e c i fy in g t h e Page 18 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 s e g r e g a ti o n o f d u t y in n o u n c e r t a i n t e r m s a n d fr o m th e r e o n t h is i s a p r a c ti c e t h a t t h e t h r e e c o m m i t t e e s i s t h e le g it i m a t e c o m m i t te e s in p r o c u r e m e n t t o a d d r e s s th e p r o c e s s r e q u ir e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o t h e - t h e C F S T is a - is a 2 0 1 6 a n d before phenomenon? M R H U M A N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . M r H u m a n , y o u - y o u lis t i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t fi v e t e n d e r s t h a t y o u t h e n d e a l w i t h . Fo r - f o r t h e r e a s o n s I h a v e g i v e n I d o n o t i n t e n d to s p e n d m u c h t i m e o n - o n m o s t o f th o s e , 10 b u t j u s t t e ll u s b e f o r e th e f ir s t t e n d e r w a s is s u e i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 w h o w a s t h e p r o v i d e r o f c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t s e r v ic e s ? M R H U M A N : A ir Fr a n c e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n w e g o t o t h e fir s t t e n d e r ? Yo u d e a l w i t h t h a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 9 o n p a g e 8 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t . W h a t w a s t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f t h e C F S T i n t h is t e n d e r ? MR HUMAN: After … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. C a n I fir s t h e a r w h a t t h e t e n d e r w a s a b o u t? I f - i f … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s c e r t a i n ly C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: If y o u h a v e c o v e r e d t h a t I m u s t h a v e m is s e d i t . I f I c a n h e a r w h a t t h e t e n d e r a b o u t w a s a b o u t fir s t. MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e - a c o m p o n e n t t e n d e r f o r S A AT w a s a d v e r t is e d f iv e t i m e s c o n s e c u tiv e ly. T h e fir s t o c c u r r e n c e o f t h is b i d w a s t h e … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Oh. Hang on. Is that the one I heard about Page 19 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 yesterday? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t th e s a m e te n d e r a b o u t y e s te r d a y fr o m … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h is - t h i s - t h e fir s t o n e is t h e f ir s t o n e th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m M s S a m b o ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : F r o m M s S a m b o i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - a n d w h e n - w h e n h e ta lk s a b o u t a d v e r ti s e d f iv e ti m e s . H e is t a l k i n g a b o u t e x a c tly t h a t o n e ? 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n … CHAIRPERSON: That we said … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: We said it is the same, but … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d e a c h - o n e a c h o c c a s i o n i t h a d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t h a d a s e p a r a t e b id n u m b e r. S o i t w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t w a s r e a d v e r ti s e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : U n d e r - u n d e r a n e w - a n e w b id n u m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o w e h a v e b e e n r e f e r r i n g t o i t a s t h e fir s t, second … Page 20 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s . O k a y. Mr H u m a n y o u d o n o t h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h t h a t . I n o w u n d e r s ta n d . M R H U M A N : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: I t is s o m e th in g t h a t w a s d e a l t w i t h y e s t e r d a y, b u t i t w a s a c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r ? M R H U M A N : C o r r e c t , s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Th a n k y o u . Mr M b ik iw a , y o u h a d a s k e d q u e s t io n a b o u t c r o s s s e c t io n o r s o m e th i n g . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . I w a s j u s t a s k i n g w h a t t h e - w h a t t h e 10 r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s i n th a t - b y t h e C F S T i n - i n th a t te n d e r. M R H U M A N : Th e - t h e … CHAIRPERSON: W e ll - w e l l I a m s o r r y. Mr Human, you might not u n d e r s t a n d t h is , b u t m a y b e f o r p u r p o s e s o f c o n s i s te n c y. W e - w e m a y h a v e t o r e f e r to t h e m a s fi r s t , s e c o n d , t h ir d , f o u r t h t e n d e r a s w e d i d yesterday … M R H U M A N : Ye s . O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e y o u r e v i d e n c e h a s to l i n k t o y e s t e r d a y ’s evidence. M R H U M A N : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: S o th a t i t is c le a r w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e s a m e thing. M R H U M A N : A b s o l u t e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o t h is i s t h e f ir s t te n d e r. MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e f ir s t te n d e r w a s a d v e r tis e d a n d th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b y t h e C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l S o u r c in g Te a m r e c o m m e n d e d Page 21 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 t h a t t h e c o m p o n e n t s s u p p o r t fo r t h e B o e i n g F le e t b e a w a r d e d t o Is r a e l A e r o s p a c e o r I A I a s t h e a b b r e v ia t io n c o m m o n l y u s e d a n d f o r t h e A ir b u s Fl e e t t o A ir Fr a n c e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d w h a t w a s th e o u tc o m e o f t h a t tender? M R H U M A N : T h e o u tc o m e w a s th a t e v e n t u a ll y th e B o a r d a p p r o v e d t h a t t h is t e n d e r b e r e tr a c te d i n to t a l i ty. T h a t S A AT t e s t t h e m a r k e t b y r e q u e s t in g q u o ta t io n s fr o m o th e r p a r t i e s to te s t t h e r e le v a n c e o f p r i c i n g a n d t h e n t o a l lo w S A AT t o d e v i a te fr o m a c o m p e t i ti v e o p e n t e n d e r 10 p r o c e s s a n d r a t h e r c o n fi n e t h e a w a r d to o n ly o n e b id . C h a ir, I h a v e tr i e d to d e p ic t th e s e fa c t s i n p a r a g r a p h 4 1 o f t h e a ff id a v i t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : B e fo r e w e g e t t h e r e a n d - a n d th is - t h i s m a y b e b e c a u s e o f t h e - t h e w a y w e a r e n a m i n g th e t e n d e r s , b u t - b u t a t p a r a g r a p h 4 1 o f t h e a ffi d a v it . Yo u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t e n d e r S P 4 3 7 /1 4 w h ic h i s a … CHAIRPERSON: The second. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t w e m i g h t r e fe r t o a s th e s e c o n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : S e c o n d t e n d e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S e c o n d te n d e r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. S o h is q u e s t i o n M r H u m a n r e la t e d to t h e fir s t - w h a t w e c a ll th e fir s t t e n d e r. M R H U M A N : O h . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : C h a ir, I a p o lo g is e . T h e - t h e fi r s t t e n d e r w a s n u m b e r e d in te r ms o f t h e - t h e t e n d e r r e g is t e r a t S A AT a s S P 4 0 1 / 2 0 1 2 . T h e f ir s t Page 22 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 t e n d e r. Th e - if I m a y c o n fir m t h e C F S T r e c o m m e n d e d t h e a w a r d f o r t h e B o e i n g F l e e t t o Is r a e l A e r o s p a c e a n d f o r t h e A ir b u s F le e t to A ir Fr a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M R H U M A N : A n d t h e n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n fr o m t h e - fr o m t h e B o a r d … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u d e a l w i t h t h e B A C r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a t paragraph 33. MR HUMAN: 10 Ye s . The recommendation was in paragraph 33 and I h a v e a t ta c h e d a s a n a n n e x a c o p y o f t h e B A C r e s o l u ti o n . T h a t it s h o u l d b e c a n c e ll e d a n d r e tr a c t e d t o - to a ll o w a n i n t e g r a te d a p p r o a c h . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And what does that mean? A n in t e g r a t e d approach. MR HUMAN: I n te g r a te d a p p r o a c h w o u l d m e a n t h a t t h e s e r v ic e s f o r c o m p o n e n ts a n d fo r l o g is ti c s b e c o m b i n e d in o n e te n d e r a n d o n e a w a r d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u ; a n d - a n d - s o n o w w e c a n … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I n t e g r a t e d a p p r o a c h i s … . ? MR HUMAN: S ir, t h e t w o b i g t ic k e t i t e m s i n te r m s o f c o s t d r iv e r s a t S A AT is t h e c o s t o f th e - t h e c o m p o n e n t i ts e lf , b u t a ls o th e 20 tr a n s p o r t a ti o n . M o s t o f t h e s e a r e fl o w n fr o m e i th e r A m e r ic a f o r B o e in g p a r t s o r E u r o p e f o r A ir b u s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : A n d r e p r e s e n t s ig n i f ic a n t a m o u n ts o f m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H U M A N : S o i n t e g r a ti o n w a s t h e s u p p l y o f th e c o m p o n e n t s p l u s th e Page 23 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 tr a n s p o r t a ti o n o r lo g i s tic s t h e r e o f . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o t h a t t h e - th e b i d m u s t n o t d is r e g a r d tr a n s p o r t c o s ts a n d o n ly a d d t h e m l a te r w h e n t h e y h a v e g o t t h e - th e te n d e r ? MR HUMAN: C o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . I s i t a c o n c e n t r a t io n o f s p e n d o f two … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : C o s t d r i v e r s i n to o n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R H U M A N : Ve r y b i g t e n d e r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Thank you. Mr Human we can now move o n t o th e - th e s e c o n d t e n d e r. S P 4 3 7 / 1 4 . MR HUMAN: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : H m . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. S o w h a t y o u s a id e a r li e r o n n a m e ly th e B o a r d d e c i d e d t h a t t h e t e n d e r b e c o n fi n e d t o o n e s u p p li e r. T h a t r e la t e d t o t h e s e c o n d te n d e r n o t t h e f ir s t ? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 MR HUMAN: And I do apologise for … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r H u m a n d o - d o - s o r r y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . No. I a m - I a m w o n d e r i n g w h e th e r y o u r a p p r o a c h i s t o le t h i m s a y s o m e t h i n g o n e a c h o n e o f t h e m b e f o r e y o u t a k e e a c h o n e i n t e r m s o f h o w f a r it w e n t u l ti m a t e l y o r w h e t h e r y o u Page 24 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w o u ld b e s a y in g o k a y. L e t u s f i n is h w i t h t h e f ir s t t e n d e r o r I m a y b e c o n fu s e d b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a w i t h d r a w a l . S o th e s e c o n d t e n d e r a r o s e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a w i th d r a w a l o f t h e f ir s t t e n d e r. O k a y. S o t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n n o t h i n g d o n e a f t e r - j a . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t i s … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u . O k a y. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And - and you have told us what - what h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e - t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r. What - what was your u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e r e tr a c t io n ? M R H U M A N : S o I ju s t w a n t t o c o n fi r m w e a r e n o w o n t e n d e r t w o ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o w - w e a r e n o w o n t e n d e r t w o . M R H U M A N : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I t h i n k t h a t q u e s ti o n M r M b ik i w a is g o i n g t o e x p l a i n i f I - I m i s u n d e r s ta n d h i m . I t h in k th a t q u e s ti o n g o e s b a c k t o t h e fir s t te n d e r t o s a y w h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s o f w h y t h a t t e n d e r w a s w i th d r a w n o r r e tr a c te d . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o C h a ir. L e t m e - le t m e tr y a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : U n le s s I u n d e r s to o d y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C la r i fy. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r - M r H u m a n , th o u g h t I w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r w h e n i n fa c t I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e fi r s t … Page 25 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And e x p l a in e d what he had said at p a r a g r a p h 4 1 a b o u t th e r e tr a c ti o n o f th a t t e n d e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t I a m a s k … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e fir s t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O n t h a t o c c a s io n I w a s ta lk in g a b o u t t h e fir s t o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e s e c o n d . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A s I u n d e r s t a n d M r H u m a n ’s e v id e n c e th e fir s t t e n d e r w a s a d v e r t is e d a n d w a s r e tr a c t e d in o r d e r f o r a n i n t e g r a t e d a p p r o a c h t o b e f o l lo w e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d w e a r e n o w m o v in g o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e d o n e w i t h t h e f ir s t o n e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e a r e n o w d o n e w i t h th e fir s t t e n d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w e a r e m o v in g o n to t h e s e c o n d te n d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h ic h - w h ic h h e h a s a lr e a d y to ld u s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e r e w a s a c o n fi n e m e n t t o o n e b i d d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e r e w a s a r e tr a c ti o n a n d I a m - a n d I a m a s k in g … Page 26 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h e th e r h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I t h i n k m a y b e w h a t y o u d o , b e c a u s e h e s a id - h e s a i d th a t i n - a t a w r o n g ti m e . L e t u s s t a r t a fr e s h w i th t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Te ll u s a b o u t t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Te l l u s a b o u t th e s e c o n d te n d e r. MR HUMAN: It is … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : D is r e g a r d w h a t y o u s a i d e a r l ie r. MR HUMAN: Ye s . C h a ir p e r s o n i s i t n o t e v e r y d a y th a t y o u h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o s t a r t a fr e s h a n d I w o u l d c e r t a i n ly w e lc o m e i t. T h a n k y o u for your indulgence. S o th e s e c o n d te n d e r w a s t h e n a d v e r tis e d o n 2 9 O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 . I t w a s e v a l u a t e d a n d t h e n t h e B o a r d a s k e d t h a t th is t e n d e r b e p u t o n h o ld a n d t h e r e a s o n f o r t h a t w a s th a t t h e r e w a s a M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s t a n d in g p r o p o s e d w i t h A A R u n d e r a s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t fr a m e w o r k p r o p o s a l . T h e B o a r d t h e n r e s o lv e d t h a t th is t e n d e r b e p u t o n h o ld - t h e evaluation process. 20 S o i t w a s a d v e r ti s e d . B id s w e r e r e c e i v e d . The c o m m i t t e e w e r e b u s y e v a l u a t in g t h e r e s u l t s a n d m i d w a y t h is e v a lu a ti o n t h e B o a r d r e q u e s t e d t h e S A AT C r o s s Fu n c t io n a l S o u r c i n g Te a m t o p u t i t o n h o ld fo r th r e e m o n t h s w h i le th e p o s s i b i li t ie s o f e n g a g in g o n a M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s t a n d i n g w i t h A A R a r e i n v e s t ig a te d . CHAIRPERSON: W h y w a s t h e B o a r d g e t ti n g i n v o l v e d in t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r a n d i n - i n t h e fir s t t e n d e r i n th e s e c o n d t e n d e r ? Page 27 of 142 Wa s t h a t 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 b e c a u s e th e v a l u e o f t h e t e n d e r r e q u i r e d t h e B o a r d to b e i n v o lv e d o r what was the reason? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n a t t h e ti m e S A A a n d S A AT d e v e l o p e d a s tr a t e g ic p a r t n e r s h i p p r o g r a m a s a v e h ic l e to a d v a n c e e c o n o m i c g o a ls e m p o w e r m e n t g o a l s a n d i t w a s s e e n a s a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o e x p l o r e lo c a lis a ti o n . N o w i f y o u a l l o w m e j u s t t o e x p l a i n a l it t le b i t l a t e r. T h e G o v e r n m e n t h a s a n u m b e r o f in s t r u m e n ts th a t i t w o u ld lik e to u s e to a tt r a c t f o r e i g n d ir e c t i n v e s t m e n t . T h e N a t io n a l I n d u s tr i a l is a ti o n P a r t ic i p a ti o n Pr o g r a m is o n e o f 10 those tools. S u p p li e r E s t a b li s h m e n t i n S o u th A f r i c a is o n e o f t h o s e t o o ls a n d i t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t th e B o a r d w a s c o n s i d e r i n g u s i n g t h e s tr a t e g ic p a r t n e r s h i p fr a m e w o r k to e n g a g e s u p p li e r s t h a t w o u l d m a k e t h e s e k i n d o f i n v e s t m e n ts i n - i n S o u t h A f r ic a . T h e ir in v o lv e m e n t w a s n o t to a p p r o v e t h e t e n d e r. T h e ir in v o lv e m e n t w a s t o s a y t h e y c o n s i d e r th e - th e fr a m e w o r k - s u p p l ie r d e v e l o p m e n t fr a m e w o r k t o - to - a s a v e h i c le f o r e m p o w e r m e n t a n d f o r in v e s t m e n t i n S o u th A fr ic a . C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I r ig h t t o th i n k t h a t n o r m a l ly a B o a r d o f a n S O E w o u ld n o t b e i n v o lv e d i n t e n d e r s , b u t th a t t h e r e m a y b e t e n d e r s t h a t a r e 20 a b o v e a c e r t a i n v a l u e t h a t h a v e t o g o to t h e B o a r d , b u t o t h e r t h a n th a t r e a s o n n o r m a ll y a B o a r d w o u ld n o t b e in v o l v e d i n - i n t e n d e r s . A m I r ig h t ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t i s c o r r e c t . Th e P F M A A c t m a k e s s p e c i f ic p r o v is io n f o r w h a t is t h e r o l e s a n d r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s o f a n a c c o u n t in g a u th o r i ty. I n t h i s c a s e t h e a c c o u n ti n g a u t h o r i ty is th e Page 28 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 B o a r d . T h e i r i n v o lv e m e n t is o v e r s i g h t a n d g o v e r n a n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm, but the - the reason that you have forward w h y t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g in v o lv e d a n d y o u h a v e s a i d th e y w e r e n o t g e t ti n g in v o lv e d t o a p p r o a c h o r n o t a p p r o a c h . A s y o u u n d e r s t a n d it t h a t w o u l d b e i n l in e w i t h P F M A r e q u ir e m e n t o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t? MR HUMAN: approve C h a ir p e r s o n , th e i n v o lv e m e n t o f th e B o a r d w o u l d b e t o m e c h a n is m s within the legal fr a m e w o r k and the le g a l fr a m e w o r k i n t h is c a s e w o u l d b e tw o v e r y s p e c i f ic p i e c e s o f le g is l a ti o n . 10 I t w o u l d b e th e B l a c k B a s e d Ec o n o m ic E m p o w e r m e n t Ac t p lu s th e c o d e s a n d s e c o n d ly t h e P r e f e r e n t ia l Pr o c u r e m e n t Ac t p l u s i t s r e g u l a ti o n s . T h o s e t w o w o u ld f o r m t h e l e g a l f r a m e w o r k . Th e p a r tn e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t in m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s a s p e c i f ic d is p e n s a ti o n f o r Es k o m a n d Tr a n s n e t a n d i t w a s b a s e d o n a p r o v is i o n o f t h e Ac t w h e r e t h o s e e n t i ti e s h a d t o s p e c i fi c a ll y a p p l y fo r a p p r o v a l t o d e v i a te f r o m t h e n o r m a l i n s tr u m e n t s . I a m n o t - u n a w a r e a n d u n s u r e w h a t m o t iv a t e d th e B o a r d t o u s e th a t s p e c i fi c i n s tr u m e n t w i t h o u t a p p l y i n g f o r th e a p p r o v a l t o d e v ia t e f r o m t h e tw o m a in fr a m e w o r k s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Mr H u m a n , w o u l d i t b e f a ir t o s a y t h a t i f t h e te n d e r s h a d g o t t o th a t s t a g e B o a r d a p p r o v a l w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e q u ir e d ? MR HUMAN: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : But that the Board intervened before it got to that stage? Page 29 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 M R H U M A N : Th a t w o u ld b e c o r r e c t, s ir. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n r e s p e c t o f w h a t w e a r e c a ll in g t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r. C a n y o u j u s t c o n fir m f o r u s w h e n i t w a s i s s u e d a n d w h a t t h e c lo s i n g d a te f o r th e b i d s w a s ? M R H U M A N : C e r ta i n ly. T h e - th e t e n d e r w a s p u b lis h e d - I a m g o i n g to m a k e v e r y s u r e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I h a v e n u m b e r t w o a s n u m b e r t w o . If y o u a ll o w m e a m i n u t e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M R H U M A N : T h e t e n d e r w a s a d v e r t is e d o n 2 9 O c t o b e r a n d t h e c lo s i n g 10 date was 2 December 2014. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e n th e s u s p e n s i o n d e c is i o n w a s m a d e b y t h e B o a r d ? Th e B o a r d - t h e d e c is i o n y o u r e fe r r e d t o w h e r e t h e B o a r d s u s p e n d e d t h e te n d e r. MR HUMAN: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e d e c i s io n t o s u s p e n d t h e B o a r d - t h e - t h e t e n d e r fo r t h r e e m o n t h s w a s m a d e o n 2 9 A p r il 2 0 1 5 . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e d a te o n w h i c h th e B o a r d f i n a ll y r e s o l v e d to r e tr a c t th e te n d e r ? M R H U M A N : T h e t e n d e r - t h e B o a r d a t t h e ir m e e t i n g o f 1 8 J u n e 2 0 1 5 m a d e t h e d e c is i o n to r e tr a c t th e te n d e r. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e - t h e r e a s o n I a s k y o u t h o s e d a te s is b e c a u s e I w o u l d n o w l ik e t o t u r n to t h e - t h e p o r t i o n o f y o u r e v id e n c e w h e r e y o u d e a l w it h t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n A A R a n d S A AT d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d b e tw e e n t h e is s u in g o f t h e t e n d e r a n d t h e d e c is i o n t o r e tr a c t i t . M R H U M A N : Ye s s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b e fo r e y o u - y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t . Th e s e d e c is io n s Page 30 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 b y t h e B o a r d t o s u s p e n d th e t e n d e r f o r w h a te v e r p e r io d - th r e e m o n t h s . W o u l d - w o u l d t h e y n o r m a lly f a l l w i t h i n t h e f u n c ti o n o f - o f a B o a r d th a t k in d o f d e c i s i o n o r s h o u ld i t b e a d e c is io n o f m a n a g e m e n t a n d i f t h e B o a r d w a n ts t o s u g g e s t th e y s u g g e s t , b u t t h e d e c is io n s h o u l d b e t a k e n b y m a n a g e m e n t? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n , i t is u s u a lly t h e d e c is i o n o f m a n a g e m e n t a n d th e r e g u la t io n s - th e P P P FA R e g u l a ti o n s m a k e i t c l e a r w h e n y o u c a n c a n c e l a t e n d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR HUMAN: It is o n ly w h e n c ir c u m s ta n c e s h a v e c h a n g e d o r w h e n t h e r e i s n o b u d g e t a v a i la b l e o r a t e n d e r i s - is v i e w e d t h a t t h e r e w a s fr a u d u l e n t o r c o r r u p t a c t iv it i e s in v o lv e d . Th a t w o u ld b e t h e t h r e e r e a s o n s t h a t is c u r r e n t ly p r o v id e d f o r in T h e P u b l ic S e c t o r Pr o c u r e m e n t R e g u l a t o r y Fr a m e w o r k fo r c a n c e ll a ti o n o f a te n d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M R H U M A N : I t i s n o t c o m m o n t h a t a B o a r d w o u l d t a k e s u c h a d e c is i o n . I t w o u l d b e ta k e n a t m a n a g e m e n t l e v e l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r H u m a n , I w o u l d li k e t o ta k e y o u to a fe w 20 a s p e c ts o f th e d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p . I f w e c a n p ic k i t u p a t - o n - o n p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a t p a r a g r a p h 4 9 . Yo u - y o u r e f e r t o M s J a c k s o n - M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n a p p r o a c h i n g Mr N i c o B e z u i d e n h o u t . C a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t a p p r o a c h ? M R H U M A N : C h a ir, I h a v e a t t a c h e d a n e m a i l t o m y a ff id a v i t. CHAIRPERSON: I a m - I a m s o r r y. M r - Mr M b ik iw a , I m a y h a v e Page 31 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 m is s e d t h i s a g a i n . Th e r e s o l u ti o n o f t h e B o a r d o n 1 8 J u n e a s I - a s I lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 4 1 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t - w h i c h w a s d o n e b y w a y o f r o u n d robin - was: “ To a p p r o v e t h e r e t r a c ti o n o f t h e t e n d e r t o a l lo w t h e fi n a l is a t i o n o f t h e s tr a te g i c p a r t n e r s h i p . ” T h a t s tr a t e g ic p a r t n e r s h i p d i d y o u s a y i t w a s w i t h - w h a t o r g a n i s a t io n ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e in t e n t w a s to e n t e r i n t o a s tr a t e g ic partnership with AAR. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t h e - th e i n t e n t i o n ? M R H U M A N : C o r r e c t , s ir. CHAIRPERSON: And then it says: “ T h e B o a r d a ls o a p p r o v e d t h a t S A AT t e s t t h e m a r k e t b y r e q u e s t i n g q u o ta t io n s fr o m o t h e r p a r t ie s f o r a s ix m o n th p e r i o d . ” M R H U M A N : Ye s , s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Do the two make sense? O n e , r e tr a c t t h e te n d e r t o a l lo w fo r t h e fi n a l is a t i o n o f t h e s tr a t e g ic p a r t n e r s h i p . Tw o , S A AT t e s t t h e m a r k e t b y r e q u e s ti n g q u o ta t io n s fr o m o th e r p a r t ie s f o r a s i x m o n t h 20 o r m a y b e it d o e s , b e c a u s e m a y b e t h e q u o t a ti o n s t h a t w o u l d b e requested would include AAR or not - or not? MR HUMAN: T h e r a ti o n a l e f o r i n v i ti n g q u o t a ti o n s C h a i r p e r s o n , is t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e e c o n o m ic v a l u e is o n p a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HUMAN: S o - s o i n v it i n g a f e w q u o t a t i o n s w o u l d g e t a f ie ld f o r Page 32 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 v a l u e fo r m o n e y … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R H U M A N : U s u a l ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. M R H U M A N : A n d th e n i n i t e m t h r e e - 4 1 - 3 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H U M A N : Th e i n t e n t w a s t o d e v i a t e fr o m a c o m p e t i ti v e p r o c e s s a n d o n ly a w a r d i t t o o n e b i d d e r t h r o u g h a c o n f in e m e n t p r o c e s s . Not t h r o u g h a c o m p e ti ti v e t e n d e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W e l l Mr M b ik iw a , w h e n y o u d e a l w i th t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p i s th a t w h e n y o u w il l d e a l w i t h s o m e o f t h e s e a s p e c t s , because … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i f y o u w il l d e a l w i t h t h e m . It is fi n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e w il l. W e w i l l C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n - in a s e n s e C h a ir w h a t w e h a v e d o n e c h r o n o lo g ic a l ly i s w e h a v e d e a lt w it h t h e b e g i n n in g o f t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r a n d i ts r e tr a c ti o n … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th e r e a s o n fo r t h e r e tr a c ti o n i s t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h A A R . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y o u a r e g o in g t o d e a l w i th n o w. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w e a r e n o w g o in g t o m o v e t o t h e c h r o n o lo g y … Page 33 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O f t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h a t r e la t io n s h i p u p t o t h e r e tr a c t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e i n t e r v e n i n g p e r i o d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr Human, I had asked you about the a p p r o a c h t h a t M s J a c k s o n m a d e to M r B e z u i d e n h o u t in F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 . MR HUMAN: 10 Correct. A n e m a i l w a s s e n t b y Ms C h e r y l J a c k s o n t o M r N ic o B e z u id e n h o u t . M r B e z u id e n h o u t w a s t h e A c t in g C E O o f S A A a t t h e t i m e . S h e t h a n k e d h i m i n t h is e m a i l f o r a m e e ti n g th a t h e h a d w i t h h e r a n d s h e a t t a c h e d a p r o p o s a l - a p a r tn e r s h i p p r o p o s a l . C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w o u l d b e in l i n e w i t h t h e s tr a te g ic p a r tn e r s h ip p r o p o s a l th a t t h e B o a r d i n te n d e d to p u t o n h o l d t h e r u n n i n g t e n d e r fo r t h r e e m o n t h s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : To a ll o w fo r t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f a s tr a te g i c p a r t n e r s h i p … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR HUMAN: Framework. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : E x c e p t M r H u m a n i n ti m e t h e B o a r d h a d n o t y e t s u s p e n d e d t h e t e n d e r. H a d i t? MR HUMAN: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o th e r e w a s a n o p e n t e n d e r in w h ic h b i d s h a d b e e n s u b m i t t e d a n d t h e r e w a s a n e v a l u a t io n o n g o i n g ? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . Page 34 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n y o u r v ie w i s t h a t - i s t h a t c o m m o n p r a c ti c e to - to s u b m it a p a r tn e r s h i p p r o p o s a l a s a t e n d e r e r w h il e a t e n d e r is o p e n a n d p e n d i n g ? MR HUMAN: N o t a t a l l. I t is c o m m o n ly v i e w e d in p u b l ic s e c t o r p r o c u r e m e n t t h a t w h e n a t e n d e r p r o c e s s is r u n n i n g t h a t i n t e r a c t io n w i t h s u p p li e r s a r e p r o h i b i t e d a n d i t is e x p li c i tl y s t a te d l ik e t h a t i n t h e S u p p l y C h a in P o li c y o f S A A a n d S A AT. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e n i f w e c a n m o v e to - t o p a r a g r a p h 51? 10 Yo u - y o u s p e a k a b o u t a p r o p o s e d c o l l a b o r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t t h a t e m e r g e d t h e r e a f te r. C a n y o u t e l l u s a b o u t t h a t ? MR HUMAN: B a s e d o n th e p r o p o s a l th a t M s J a c k s o n h a s e m a il e d t o M r B e z u i d e n h o u t . M r B e z u id e n h o u t t h e n f o r w a r d e d t h i s p r o p o s a l t o th e S A AT C E O - M r Z w a n e - a n d t h i s p r o p o s a l fr o m A A R p r o p o s e d c o l l a b o r a ti o n b e t w e e n th e tw o o r g a n is a ti o n s i n t h e p r o v is i o n i n g o f - o f c o m p o n e n ts . T h e p r o v is i o n i n g o f c o m p o n e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e i t i s n e c e s s a r y M r M b ik i w a t o l e t M r H u m a n ju s t d e a l w i t h t h e m a i n f e a t u r e s o f th e p r o p o s a l . S o t h a t o n e c a n - c a n f o ll o w th e - th e p r o p o s a l t h a t M s J a c k s o n s e n t t o M r B e z u id e n h o u t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H U M A N : C h a ir, th e - t h e p r o p o s a l is a tt a c h e d a s A n n e x u r e 9 A . I f y o u w o u l d a ll o w m e o n e s e c … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, i t i s a t p a g e 1 - 1 - 2 - 8 . CHAIRPERSON: 1-1-2-8. Thank you. bundle? Page 35 of 142 W o u l d t h a t b e in a n o t h e r 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y. M y a p o l o g ie s C h a ir. T h a t is i n DD22C. C H A I R P E R S O N : D D 2 2 C . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . 11 - 2 8 . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 11 - 2 8 C h a ir. T h a t is t h e - th a t i s th e e m a il c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d t h e n th e c o l la b o r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t is o n t h e n e x t page as the attachment. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t i s i n d r a f t f o r m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J u s t e m p h a s i s i n g t h e m a in f e a t u r e s m ig h t a s s is t 10 in u n d e r s ta n d i n g m a y b e w h y la t e r o n t h e B o a r d d e c i d e d t o s a y t h e t e n d e r s h o u l d b e s u s p e n d e d f o r t h r e e m o n th s p e n d i n g t h e fi n a l is a ti o n of this. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C e r t a i n ly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr Human can I ask you to turn page 1 - 1 - 3 - 4 a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r to C l a u s e 5 . 2 . S o r r y 5 . 1 u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g o f “ C o l la b o r a t i o n ” . M R H U M A N : C e r t a i n l y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 MR HUMAN: C a n y o u r e a d t h a t in t o t h e r e c o r d ? Ye s , C h a ir p e r s o n th e a g r e e m e n t s ta t e s t h e f o l lo w in g : “ C o l la b o r a t i o n T h e p a r t ie s a g r e e t o c o l la b o r a te w i th e a c h o t h e r f o r th e p u r p o s e o f n e g o t ia t in g t h is m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d in g i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th e te r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s o f t h is a g r e e m e n t . F o r th e s e p u r p o s e s t h e p a r t ie s r e c o r d t h a t t h e i n t e n t t o Page 36 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 e x e c u te t h e M O U b y 1 5 J u n e 2 0 1 5 ; t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e M O U is t o p r o v id e t h e f o l lo w i n g : (a) A A R is t o b e S A AT ’s m a j o r M R O e q u i ty p a r tn e r t h r o u g h a j o in t v e n t u r e . (b) A A R is t o b e th e p r i m a r y s u p p li e r o f M R O a n d s u p p ly c h a i n s e r v ic e s in c l u d i n g a p o w e r b y t h e h o u r p r o g r a m t o S A AT. (c) T h e p a r ti e s w i ll s e e k t o s tr e n g t h e n th e p r o v is io n i n g o f S A AT o f M R O a n d Av ia t io n S e r v ic e s t o S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s a n d c u r r e n tl y t h i r d p a r ty c u s t o m e r s ; 10 (d) T h e p a r ti e s w il l s e e k t o i n c r e a s e a n d d e v e lo p t h r o u g h the JV the business in respect of the provision of M R O s e r v i c e s t o th ir d p a r ty a ir li n e s . ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u M r H u m a n . C a n y o u g iv e u s a s e n s e o f h o w t h a t c o ll a b o r a ti o n , t h a t p r o p o s e d c o ll a b o r a ti o n c o m p a r e s t o t h e t e n d e r t h a t w a s a t t h e ti m e u n d e r w a y ? MR HUMAN: I t i s v ir t u a ll y t h e s a m e s e r v i c e s C h a ir p e r s o n , th e p r o v i s i o n i n g o f p o w e r b y t h e h o u r w a s th e m a i n c o m p o n e n t , t h e p r o v i s i o n i n g o f s u p p ly c h a in a n d c o m p o n e n ts , r e p a ir s , e x c h a n g e s , 20 m o d i f ic a ti o n s , e x a c t ly t h e s a m e , t h e s tr e n g th e n i n g o f M R O a n d Av i a t i o n S e r v ic e s in o u r c o n t r a c t, e n g i n e e r in g s e r v ic e s , r e l ia b i li t y s e r v i c e s , m o d i f ic a ti o n s o n s e r v e r s b u ll e ti n s a n d a ir w o r t h i n e s s d ir e c t iv e s a r e in c l u d e d i n t h e c u r r e n t t e n d e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Thank you. I f w e r e t u r n t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t ’s D D 2 2 A , u n l e s s C h a ir th e r e i s a n y a s p e c t o f th e c o l l a b o r a ti o n Page 37 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 a g r e e m e n t y o u w o u ld li k e u s to g o t o ? CHAIRPERSON: A r e y o u a b l e t o s a y th a t a r e a d i n g o f t h a t d r a f t d o e s o r d o e s n ’ t g i v e a n i n d ic a ti o n th a t t h e l a t e r r e s o lu t io n b y th e B o a r d t o w h ic h w e h a v e – a b o u t w h i c h y o u h a v e t e s ti f ie d , in d i c a t e t h a t t h e B o a r d a lr e a d y a t th is s t a g e o f t h a t r e s o lu t io n w a s lo o k in g a t A A R b e i n g g iv e n t h e jo b . Is t h a t s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u a r e a b le t o s a y b a s e d o n j u s t r e a d in g t h is a n d h a v i n g r e g a r d t o th e r e s o l u ti o n o r n o t r e a l ly ? MR HUMAN: C h a i r p e r s o n i t is t h e a b s e n c e o f a n y o th e r p r o p o s a ls o f e q u a l ly o r b e tt e r s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r s t h a t g iv e s m e a n i n d i c a t io n t h a t i t 10 w a s m o r e o r le s s th e o n ly o p t io n o n t h e t a b l e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir p e r h a p s w e c a n g o t o t h e m i n u te s o f t h e B o a r d M e e ti n g w h ic h h a p p e n e d th e v e r y n e x t d a y a ft e r t h e c o l l a b o r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t w a s c i r c u l a te d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t C h a ir y o u w il l f in d a ls o i n D D 2 2 C a n d t h a t ’s a t p a g e 1 0 5 5 , a n d i f y o u t u r n t o 1 0 5 – s o r r y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I s i t u n d e r a n y p a r t ic u l a r . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y, y e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s s o r r y, i t is A n n e x u r e 4 . A n d i f y o u t u r n to 1 0 5 6 . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] L e t u s j u s t s a y t h e s e a r e m in u te s o f t h e b o a r d , i s i t t h e S A A B o a r d o r is i t S A AT B o a r d ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: C h a ir i t i s t h e S A AT B o a r d . Ye s , o f a m e e t i n g o f 2 9 A p r i l 2 0 1 5 a t n i n e i n t h e Page 38 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 m o r n in g , o k a y, y e s , y o u m a y c o n ti n u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. If we turn to 1056 can y o u r e a d th e fir s t p o r ti o n o f 4 . 2 ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir i t is r e c o r d e d i n th e m in u te s , “ “ e v a l u a ti o n o f A A R p r o p o s a l , t h e B o a r d c o n s i d e r e d th e A A R p r o p o s a l i n w h ic h A A R s o u g h t t h e p a r t n e r s h i p , in c l u d i n g th e o p t io n t o i n v e s t i n S A AT, t o a g g r e s s i v e ly e x p a n d i ts r e g i o n a l f o o t p r i n t a s w e l l a s d i v e r s i fy a n d i n c r e a s e t h e r e v e n u e . Also t h e p r o p o s e d p a r t n e r s h i p w o u l d h e l p S A AT r e v i t a li s e i ts 10 c a p a b il it i e s for je ts shop, landing gears, A P U ’s and component repairs.” Must I continue? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J a , p l e a s e c o n t in u e . MR HUMAN: “ T h e B o a r d p r o p o s e t h a t t h e fo ll o w i n g m a t t e r s b e in c l u d e d i n t h e l is t o f S A AT ’s e x p e c t a t i o n s fr o m t h e A A R p o t e n ti a l partnership, th a t th e e ffic ie n c y improvement or cost r e d u c t i o n s l e d t o lo w e r m a i n te n a n c e c o s ts fo r S A A G r o u p A ir li n e s [ t h a t w o u l d b e S A A a n d M a n g o ] t h a t A A R e x p a n d i n t o 20 A fr ic a w i t h S A AT a s i ts b u s in e s s p a r t n e r. T h a t t h e p o te n ti a l p a r t n e r s h i p b e fo r a m i n i m u m o f fi v e y e a r s a n d r e v i e w a b l e e v e r y y e a r a n d th e r e a ft e r b e r e v i e w e d b y b o t h p a r t i e s e v e r y y e a r a n d t h a t A A R w o u ld m a k e a c a s h c o n tr i b u t i o n t o t h e proposed partnership.” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th e n c a n y o u r e a d f o r u s th e Page 39 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 r e s o l u ti o n ? MR HUMAN: “ I n c o n c l u s io n th e B o a r d r e s o lv e d t h a t ; 1) t h e p r o c e s s fo ll o w e d b y S A AT i n e v a lu a ti n g A A R a s a p o t e n t i a l s tr a te g i c p a r t n e r in th e c o n t e x t o f th e a p p r o v e d s tr a te g i c p a r t n e r s h i p fr a m e w o r k b e a n d h e r e b y is n o t e d . 2) T h e s e le c ti o n o f A A R a s o n e o f S A AT ’s s tr a te g ic partnerships be and is hereby approved and recommended to SAA. 10 3) T h e n e x t s t e p s t o b e t a k e n b y S A AT a h e a d o f s i g n i n g a m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g o r a n y o th e r c o n tr a c t w i th A A R b e a n d a r e h e r e b y a p p r o v e d . T h i s in c l u d e s a M a y v is i t to A A R le d b y B o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n . agreement, D u r i n g th is v i s i t a c o ll a b o r a ti o n w h ic h would be th e basis in the m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d in g w o u ld b e s i g n e d . ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I p a u s e y o u f o r o n e m o m e n t Mr Human? 20 MR HUMAN: C e r ta i n ly. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u r e fe r r e d a b o v e t o A A R – s o r r y a t t h e t o p o f th e p a g e , a t D , t h a t A A R w o u l d m a k e a c a s h c o n tr ib u ti o n to t h e p r o p o s e d p a r t n e r s h i p , is t h a t n o r m a l p r a c ti c e ? MR HUMAN: N o t i n a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s , u n l e s s i t w a s s p e c i f ie d n o it is n o t n o r m a l p r a c tic e , n o t i n a t e n d e r p r o c e s s s ir. Page 40 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON: N o w t h e h e a d in g t o w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t r e a d Mr H u m a n is e v a l u a t io n o f A A R p r o p o s a l . MR HUMAN: Ye s s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Th is is b e i n g d o n e b y t h e B o a r d , w h o i s a ls o – i s t h a t a ls o n o r m a l o r w o u l d t h e e v a l u a t io n b e n o r m a lly d o n e b y m a n a g e m e n t w h o w i ll t h e n if n e c e s s a r y b r i n g t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o th e B o a r d o r w a s th is b a s e d o n t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f t h e B o a r d a n y w a y, i t is ju s t t h a t i t m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n p u t lik e th a t . MR HUMAN: 10 Ye s , C h a ir p e r s o n e v a l u a ti o n i s o r d i n a r il y d o n e b y m a n a g e m e n t , i f i t f a l ls w i th i n th e d e l e g a t io n o f a u t h o r it y t h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t i t w i ll b e s u b m i t te d to t h e B o a r d f o r e v a l u a t io n . T h is s tr a t e g ic p a r tn e r s h ip p r o c e s s w a s n o t p u t t o te n d e r, i t w a s n o t a n o p e n p r o c e s s , th is is a p r o p o s a l t h a t w a s s u b m i t t e d , e v a l u a t e d a n d a d o p t e d . I n th e p r o c u r e m e n t s p e a k o n e w o u l d p r o b a b ly r e f e r t o t h i s a s a n u n s o l ic it e d b i d , th e r e w a s n ’ t a n R F Q , t h e r e w a s n o f o r m a l p r o c e s s o f in v i ti n g b i d s o r t e s t in g th e m a r k e t , i t is a s u b m i s s i o n a n d e v a l u a te d a n d awarded. CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e c o r d s t h a t y o u lo o k e d a t i n p r e p a r a ti o n fo r y o u r s ta t e m e n t d i d i t r e v e a l w h e t h e r t h i s u n s o l ic i t e d p r o p o s a l w e n t – o r 20 it d i d n ’ t g o d ir e c tl y t o t h e B o a r d , i t w e n t t o Mr B e z u id e n h o u t i s t h a t r ig h t , w e d e a l t w i t h th a t e a r li e r. MR HUMAN: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: O k a y h e w a s t h e C E O a t th e ti m e o f S A AT. He was the Group CEO of SAA. CHAIRPERSON: SAA. Page 41 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR HUMAN: SAA Airlines. CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: Ye s o k a y. A n d h e r e f e r r e d t h i s b id t o t h e S A AT C E O a t th e ti m e , M r Zwane. CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: To t h e S A AT B o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: To th e S A AT B o a r d . Ye s s ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 W h o w o u ld t h e n h a v e r e f e r r e d it t o th e B o a r d ? O k a y, t h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I s e e w e a r e c l o s e t o t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , t h e r e i s j u s t o n e fu r t h e r a s p e c t o f t h e s e m i n u t e s I w o u ld li k e t o d e a l w i t h . T h e c o ll a b o r a t io n a g r e e m e n t i s d e a l t w i t h a s a s e p a r a t e i te m i n t h e m i n u t e s , i f y o u tu r n t o 1 0 5 8 , c a n y o u j u s t r e a d fo r u s th e B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n i n to t h e r e c o r d , a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir i n p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 i n c o n c l u s io n th e B o a r d r e s o lv e d t h a t M u s a Zw a n e , t h e C E O o f S A AT b e a u t h o r is e d t o s i g n o n b e h a l f o f S A AT a ll necessary d o c u m e n t a ti o n to e ffe c t the c o l l a b o r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A AT a n d A A R , t h e S A AT c o m p o n e n t s te n d e r c u r r e n tly u n d e r w a y b e p l a c e d o n h o ld f o r t h r e e m o n t h s to a ll o w fo r t h e 20 fi n a l is a t i o n o f t h e A A R p a r t n e r s h i p a n d t h r e e t h e c u r r e n t c o m p o n e n t s c o n tr a c t w i th A ir Fr a n c e b e e x t e n d e d fo r t h r e e m o n t h s fr o m t h e e x p ir y d a t e t o a ll o w fo r th e fi n a l is a ti o n o f t h e S A AT A A R p a r t n e r s h i p agreement. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u Mr H u m a n . P u tt i n g t o o n e s i d e f o r th e m o m e n t t h e r e l a t i o n s h ip b e t w e e n S A AT a n d A A R t h e e x t e n s io n Page 42 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 o f t h e c o n t r a c t w i th A ir F r a n c e w h a t ’s t h e la w f u l n e s s o f th a t a n d d o e s t h a t r e q u ir e a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s ? MR HUMAN: T h e c u r r e n t p u b lic p r o c u r e m e n t f r a m e w o r k a l l o w s f o r th e v a r ia t io n o r e x te n s i o n o f c o n t r a c t s b u t to a v o i d th e s o - c a ll e d e v e r g r e e n e x t e n s i o n u p o n e x t e n s i o n o f e x te n s i o n Tr e a s u r y In s t r u c t i o n 3 h a s c u r b e d t h e s e e x t e n s i o n s t o a m a x i m u m o f 1 5 % , a n d t h e r e a s o n fo r t h a t d e c is i o n w a s t o e n s u r e t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t a g e n c i e s a r e a l l o w e d t o g o o n a n o p e n t e n d e r p r o c e s s w it h o u t d is r u p t i n g s e r v ic e s b u t t o p r o h ib i t a n e x t e n s i o n f o r e v e r a n d e v e r a f t e r, s o it i s a l l o w a b l e b u t w i th i n t h a t 10 li m i ts s p e c i f ie d i n i n s tr u c t io n 3 o f 2 0 1 6 . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: M r M b i k i w a I w a s lo o k i n g fo r t h e p a g e w h i c h h a s g o t t h a t r e s o l u ti o n th a t Mr H u m a n r e a d e a r l i e r o n b e fo r e w e c a m e t o 11 . 4 5 , I th o u g h t i t w a s 11 .4 8 b u t 11 . 4 8 d o e s n ’ t s e e m t o b e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir w h e n w e w e r e a t 11 . 4 8 w e w e r e w i t h i n – o r 11 .4 3 r a t h e r w e w e r e w it h in t h e c o ll a b o r a t io n a g r e e m e n t i ts e l f , b u t a r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e r e s o lu t io n o f – t o d o w it h t h e e v a l u a ti o n o f t h e proposal. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I think so, I am not sure. N o e v a l u a ti o n o f t h e p r o p o s a l is a t 11 – 1 0 . 5 6 . T h e o n e w e d e a l t w i th j u s t b e f o r e w e c a m e back. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J u s t b e f o r e – is i t n o t 1 0 5 6 , o r 1 0 5 7 . CHAIRPERSON: L e t m e j u s t h a v e a l o o k . N o 1 0 5 7 is . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o t t h a t o n e ? CHAIRPERSON: J a , n o I d o n ’ t t h i n k . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] Page 43 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir i t m a y h a v e b e e n Mr H u m a n ’s r e p r o d u c ti o n o f t h e r e s o lu t io n i n h is a ffi d a v i t. CHAIRPERSON: I n h is a ffi d a v it , o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s b u t w e c a n ta k e y o u to t h e a c t u a l r e s o l u ti o n , i t is a t 1 0 7 9 . CHAIRPERSON: 1079. Ye s I th i n k I m a y h a v e b e e n l o o k i n g a t h is a ffi d a v i t r e p r o d u c i n g t h i s . Th e d a t e f o r t h a t r e s o l u ti o n is 1 2 J u n e 2 0 1 5 , b u t I s e e t h a t i n t e r m s o f t h e m in u t e s a t 1 0 5 5 a l r e a d y i n A p r il i t lo o k s lik e t h e B o a r d h a d e ff e c ti v e ly m a d e s i m il a r d e c i s i o n s o f m o r e o r l e s s 10 t h e s a m e d e c i s i o n s , a m I r i g h t , Mr H u m a n ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: I s e e th e r e ’s a r e s o lu ti o n a t 1 0 3 7 , t h e p r o c e s s f o ll o w e d b y S A AT i n e v a lu a ti n g A A R a s a p o t e n t i a l s t r a t e g ic p a r tn e r i n t h e c o n t e x t o f th e a p p r o v e d .. . [ in d i s ti n c t ] f r a m e w o r k b e a n d is h e r e b y noted. Tw o , t h e s e l e c t io n o f A A R a s o n e o f S A AT ’s s tr a te g i c p a r t n e r s b e a n d is h e r e b y a p p r o v e d a n d r e c o m m e n d e d t o S A A , s o t h a t’s a lr e a d y – t h a t’s A p r i l. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: 20 In d e e d C h a ir. A n d o n 1 2 J u n e 2 0 1 5 t h a t r e s o lu t io n a t 1 0 7 9 s e e m s t o e i t h e r r e p e a t t h e s a m e i n e s s e n c e o r s a y s o m e th in g v e r y s i m il a r t h a t t h o s e r e s o lu t io n s , a m I r i g h t , y o u h a v e h a d m o r e t i m e to l o o k a t th e s e d o c u m e n ts t h a n I h a v e h a d . MR HUMAN: Ye s , c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e m i n u t e s i n 1 0 5 5 o n p a g e 1 9 5 5 d a t e d 2 9 A p r i l is t h e r e s o lu t io n w h e r e t h e B o a r d i n s tr u c te d S A AT t o p u t t h e o p e n t e n d e r, th a t w a s t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r w e m e n ti o n e d Page 44 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 e a r l ie r, o n h o l d fo r th r e e m o n th s t o a l lo w fo r t h e d e v e lo p m e n t o f t h e t e n d e r a n d t h e n o n p a g e 1 0 7 9 t h e r e s o l u t io n p o i n t e d o u t h e r e is a ft e r t h is f r a m e w o r k h a s b e e n d e v e l o p e d a n d p r o p o s i n g t o t h e B o a r d n o w t o enter into the agreement thereof. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t I g u e s s t h a t a lr e a d y i n A p r il o n e c a n s e e t h e t h i n k i n g o f t h e B o a r d , is t h a t r ig h t ? MR HUMAN: C o r r e c t s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h a t w o u l d b e a c o n v e n i e n t ti m e t o b r e a k f o r l u n c h . CHAIRPERSON: F o r t e a , s o r r y, th a t ’s o p ti m i s tic . W e w il l t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , i t is tw e n ty p a s t n o w, w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w e n ty fi v e t o tw e l v e . We adjourn. REGISTRAR: A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON MR HUMAN O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e . T h a n k y o u C h a ir, b e fo r e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t w e h a d c o n c l u d e d w it h t h e b o a r d m e e t in g i n A p r i l w h ic h h a d r e s o l v e d t o 20 s u s p e n d t h e te n d e r to a ll o w f o r p a r t n e r s h i p w i t h A A R t o b e e x p l o r e d . Yo u d e a l a t p a r a g r a p h 5 5 M r H u m a n w it h a v a r io u s S A AT p e r s o n n e l v is it i n g t h e U S A . C a n y o u te ll u s w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t s r e v e a l e d th e p u r p o s e o f t h a t tr ip w a s ? CHAIRPERSON MR HUMAN T h a t is p a r a g r a p h 5 5 o f h is a ffi d a v it . O f h is a ffi d a v it , s o r r y C h a ir t h a t i s D D 2 2 A o n P a g e 1 4 . Page 45 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON MR HUMAN Ye s . Ye s S ir. T h e tr a v e l r e c o r d s i n t h e p o s i t io n o f S A AT in d i c a t e s th a t D o c t o r Ta m i , M is s K w in a n a , M r Zw a n e a n d A d v o c a te Memela visited the US from the 2nd to the 8th of May and we have a tt a c h e d a s a n a n n e x e d c o p y o f t h e a l l o w a n c e s f o r a c c o m m o d a ti o n , tr a n s fe r s , d a ily a ll o w a n c e s a n d h o t e l r e s e r v a ti o n s t o s u b s ta n ti a t e th e s t a te m e n ts [ I n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA S o r r y, i n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e is i t c o n s is t e n t w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t a n d s u p p ly c h a ir r e q u i r e m e n ts t o tr a v e l to a n d b e 10 h o s te d b y a b i d d e r w h i l e a te n d e r is o p e n ? MR HUMAN T h e s u p p ly c h a i n p o l ic y a l l o w s fo r e n g a g e m e n t o f s u p p li e r s in t w o m a n n e r s . O n e : w h e n s a m p l e s a r e r e q u ir e d , t h e n th e r e is e n g a g e m e n t a n d i t is w e ll d e f in e d i n t h e S C M P o li c y o r a s p a r t o f th e e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s , i n t h i s c a s e t h i s p r o c e s s w a s n o t a t t h e e v a l u a t io n s t a g e a n d t h e m e m b e r s t h a t a t t e n d e d t h is e n g a g e m e n t w e r e n o t p a r t o f t h e e v a lu a ti o n c o m m i t t e e . Th e y a r e o f a o t h e r s tr u c t u r e . Board m e m b e r s a n d t h e h e a d o f p r o c u r e m e n t , s o n o , it is n o t p r a c t ic e . T h e r e is a p r o v i s i o n b u t u n d e r c o n d it i o n s w e ll d e fi n e d i n th e p r o c u r e m e n t p o li c y t o p r o t e c t b o th s u p p l i e s a n d t h e m e m b e r s i n v o l v e d in t h e 20 evaluation. CHAIRPERSON And the engagement that s u p p ly chain p o li c y c o n te m p l a t e s w o u l d n o t i n c lu d e t h e b o a r d , w o u ld t h e y ? O r m e m b e r s o f the board? O r w o u l d t h e y i n c lu d e th e m u n d e r c e r t a i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s , n a m e ly a t, y o u s a id t h e o n e s ta g e is w h e n t h e y lo o k a t s a m p le s a n d t h e n a n o t h e r o n e a s e v a l u a ti o n s ta g e . W o u l d a m e m b e r o f th e b o a r d b e Page 46 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 in v o lv e d in t h o s e s t a g e s ? MR HUMAN N o t a t a ll S ir. CHAIRPERSON MR HUMAN N o t a t a ll . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA M r H u m a n t h is is o n e a s p e c t th a t M is s K w in a n a h a s r e s p o n d e d to i n h e r s t a t e m e n t i n r e s p o n s e t o r e c e i p t o f a R u l e 3 3 n o ti c e . S h e r e s p o n d s t o th e i m p lic a ti o n th a t i t w a s i m p r o p e r f o r h e r t o h a v e p a r ti c i p a t e d i n th e tr ip . I t is n o t n e c e s s a r y t o g o t o th e 10 s t a te m e n t . I can give you the nub of what she says. She says that s u p p li e r v i s i ts a r e n o t u n u s u a l a n d t h a t S A AT w o u l d n o t s i g n a M O U w i t h o u t k n o w in g e x a c t ly w h o t h e y d e a l i n g w i t h . W h a t i s y o u r c o m m e n t in r e s p o n s e t o t h a t? MR HUMAN I f i t w a s a e v a lu a ti o n o f a s e r v ic e , t h e r i g h t p e r s o n t o m a y b e e n g a g e i n s u c h a v is i t w o u ld b e t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e c r o s s functional sourcing team. Tw o : Th e p o l ic y m a k e s i t c l e a r th a t d u r i n g t h e e v a lu a ti o n p r o c e s s c o n t a c t s h o u l d b e p r o h i b i t e d e x c e p t i f it w a s p a r t o f th e e v a lu a ti o n . A n d th ir d ly C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e r o l e s a n d r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o f b o a r d m e m b e r s o r e x e c u tiv e a u t h o r i ti e s a r e v e r y 20 c le a r ly d e fi n e d i n t h e P F M A A c t u n d e r p u b li c e n t i ti e s . A n d th a t c e r t a i n l y is n o t o n e o f t h e m . CHAIRPERSON J u s t t o ta k e y o u b a c k t o th e ti m e w h e n M i s s J a c k s o n s e n t t h e ir p r o p o s a l to M r B e z u i d e n h o u t . A t th a t s ta g e h a d A A R p u t i n t h e ir b i d a l r e a d y ? Because that would have been before the board d e c i d e d t h a t th e te n d e r s h o u l d b e s u s p e n d e d fo r t h r e e m o n th s t o a ll o w Page 47 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 f o r t h e fi n a li s a t io n fo r t h e M O U . I s t h a t s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u a r e a b l e t o c la r i fy ? N a m e l y w h e t h e r w h e n M is s J a c k s o n s e n t t h e p r o p o s a l f o r t h i s partnership, she was or AAR was one of the bidders who were e x p e c ti n g t h e ir b i d s t o b e c o n s i d e r e d ? MR HUMAN C o r r e c t Sir. CHAIRPERSON O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA In d e e d C h a ir, M r H u m a n ’s e a r l ie r e v i d e n c e was that the closing date of the bid was the 2nd of December 2014 and M is s J a c k s o n s e n t th e p r o p o s a l o n t h e 2 6 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 s o 10 [ In t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA It was after the closure and during what w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e e v a l u a ti o n s t a g e . CHAIRPERSON ADV MICHAEL Ye s , o k a y. M B I K I WA Mr Hum an there is then some c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t is a t t a c h e d t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t th a t I w o u l d li k e t o t a k e y o u t o . I f y o u c a n t u r n t o 1 2 6 6 i n A n n e x u r e D D 2 2 C . 1 2 6 6 . Ar e you there? MR HUMAN 20 Ye s s ir. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA T h is is a n e - m a i l fr o m K e n H e i n t o M is s N o n c a s a M e m e l a . D o y o u k n o w w h o M r H e in i s ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA M r H e i n is a s e n i o r m a n a g e r o r s e n io r e x e c u tiv e a t A A R a t th e ti m e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA A n d i n th is e m a i l M r H e i n i n d ic a t e s t h a t h e a n d Mr Fi d d e s w il l b e a r r iv in g o n W e d n e s d a y m o r n i n g a n d s t a y i n g a t Page 48 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 t h e In t e r - C o n t in e n ta l H o t e l a n d h e a s k s i f Mi s s M e m e l a c a n f e tc h h i m . H e th e n a t ta c h e s s o m e t o p ic s fo r d is c u s s i o n . I f y o u g o o v e r t o 1 2 6 7 , i f y o u l o o k u n d e r d is c u s s i o n t o p ic s . MR HUMAN Ye s Sir. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA A t t h e fi r s t b u ll e t p o i n t , c a n y o u r e a d th a t one? MR HUMAN A f u l l u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f S A AT s u p p o r t r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d needs versus the RFB. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA 10 N o w t h i s i s a t a s t a g e w h e n t h e te n d e r w i ll h a s n o t y e t b e e n r e tr a c t e d . W o u l d th a t b e a n a p p r o p r i a t e d i s c u s s io n f o r a b i d d e r t o b e h a v i n g w it h S A AT ? MR HUMAN To t a l ly u n a p p r o p r ia t e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA C a n I a s k y o u t h e n t o tu r n to 1 2 6 3 , i t is j u s t a f e w [I n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON W e ll I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y M r M b i k i w a . T h e s e c o n d b u ll e t p o i n t s e e m s q u i te in t e r e s ti n g . C u r r e n t S A AT s u p p o r t; lik e s a n d d is li k e s o f c u r r e n t s u p p o r t p r o v i d e d , d o y o u k n o w w h a t t h a t t h a t is a b o u t? T h e ‘ lik e s a n d d i s l ik e s .’ MR HUMAN 20 S ir, I h a v e n o w r it t e n e v i d e n c e o f w h a t th a t m i g h t m e a n . I w i ll h a v e t o i n te r p r e t b u t , CHAIRPERSON Ye s , o k a y, a l r i g h t . W e l l y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th a l o t o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d m i n u t e s o f m e e ti n g s , a r e y o u a b l e - b a s e d o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f v a r i o u s m i n u te s a n d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t r e la t e t o t h is – a r e y o u a b le t o s a y w h a t y o u t h i n k t h a t m e a n t? MR HUMAN Ye s . Page 49 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON MR HUMAN W h a t d id y o u , w h a t d o y o u t h i n k it m e a n t? C h a ir p e r s o n , I a m o f t h e o p i n i o n t h a t t h e r e is a ls o e v i d e n c e in th e o t h e r d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t a c a s e w a s b u i lt th a t t h e s e r v ic e o f Ai r Fr a n c e a r e u n a c c e p ta b l e , a n d i t i s u s e d a s a m o t iv a ti o n w h y t h i s a g r e e m e n t s h o u l d b e f u r th e r p u r s u e d . I t is m y n o ti o n t h a t th is f o r m u l a ti o n p r o b a b ly p o i n ts t o a p e r f o r m a n c e s e r v ic e s a n d o p e r a ti n g m o d e ls t h a t w i ll b e b e t t e r s u i t e d t o S A AT th e n w h a t t h e t h e n p r o v i d e r A ir Fr a n c e w e r e a b l e to d o . CHAIRPERSON 10 MR HUMAN S o t h e c u r r e n t s u p p li e r a t t h e t i m e w a s A ir Fr a n c e . T h a t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON A n d t h e r e f e r e n c e i n t h a t s e c o n d b u ll e t p o i n t t o c u r r e n t S A AT s u p p o r t w o u l d b e o n y o u r t h i n k in g w o u l d b e a r e f e r e n c e t o A ir Fr a n c e . MR HUMAN T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON A n d t h e r e f o r e w h e n h e s a y s li k e s a n d d is li k e s o f c u r r e n t s u p p o r t p r o v i d e d i t e ff e c t iv e ly, y o u s a y, i t r e f e r s t o w h a t i t is t h a t S A AT d i d n o t li k e a b o u t t h e c u r r e n t s u p p o r t a n d w h a t i t is t h e y lik e d . MR HUMAN 20 Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON W h ic h I t h i n k o n ly l o g ic s a y s i t w o u l d m e a n t h e y w a n t t o e m p h a s iz e o n t h e lik e s f o r t h e ir p u r p o s e s a n d m a g n i fy t h e l ik e s it , y o u c o u ld c r i t ic i z e , m a y b e th e c u r r e n t s u p p o r t . MR HUMAN A b s o l u te ly C h a ir p e r s o n . I t i s p r o b a b ly a m e t h o d t o s o l ic i t in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w o u l d s t r e n g th e n th e p r o p o s a l t h a t t h e s u p p l ie r th e n w o u ld h a v e p u t f o r w a r d . Page 50 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON Ye s . I t is t h e k i n d o f in f o r ma t io n t h a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e w a n t e d t o u s e t o s tr e n g th e n t h e ir o w n e i t h e r b i d o r i f n o t b i d t h e d r i v e f o r t h is c o l la b o r a t i o n . MR HUMAN C o r r e c t S ir. A c o m m o n p r a c t ic e th a t is p r o v i d e d i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t l e g is la t io n is s o - c a l l e d b r i e fi n g s e s s i o n s a n d t h e n i n a n u n b ia s e d a n d m a n n e r th a t d o e s n ’ t f a v o u r o n ly a s p e c i fic s u p p li e r t h is k in d o f i n f o r m a t io n w i ll b e p r e s e n t e d t o a l l p o t e n t i a l s u p p li e r s . G o v e r n m e n t e n t i ti e s a r e g i v e n th e o p p o r tu n i ty t o m a k e i t a c o m p u ls o r y b r i e fi n g s e s s io n a n d t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r o b a b ly th e c o r r e c t v e h ic le 10 t o u s e t o s h a r e i n f o r m a ti o n th a t b i d d e r s c o u l d u s e to s tr e n g th e n t h e ir b i d a n d p r e p a r e q u a li t y p r o p o s a l d u r in g t h e e v a l u a t io n p h a s e . B u t i t is c e r t a i n l y n o t p r a c ti c e a n d a c c e p t a b l e t o s h a r e in f o r m a t io n w i th o n ly o n e s u p p li e r a n d w i t h c o n s t i tu t e th e u n f a i r a d v a n t a g e . CHAIRPERSON Ye s , th a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Thank you. Can I ask you then to turn to Page 1263? MR HUMAN I a m o n th e 1 6 3 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA MR HUMAN 20 1263 C o r r e c t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Yo u w i ll s e e a t t h e b o t to m t h e r e i s a n e m a il fr o m M is s L o p e z , M is s S o n y a L o p e z t o M is s M i m e la a s k in g f o r tr a n s p o r t a ti o n fo r v a r i o u s p e o p l e fr o m t h e I n t e r - C o n t i n e n t a l H o t e l a b o v e t h a t M is s M i m e l a fo r w a r d s t h a t t o M r M ik e K e n n y i f I c a n a s k y o u t o t h e n tu r n b a c k to 1 2 6 2 . M is s M i m e la t h e n s a y t h a n k s Mr K e n n y, c o u l d y o u p le a s e l e t m e k n o w Page 51 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w h a t w h e n y o u r g u y s g o t o f e tc h th e m s o I c a n le a v e Pr e m i e r H o t e l t o t h e r e f u r th e r t a k e n o t e t h a t w e w il l b e u s i n g o p e r a ti o n a l p u r c h a s i n g b o a r d r o o m a n d i f I c a n a s k y o u t u r n o n e p a g e b a c k to 1 2 6 1 . Mr K e n n y in f o r m s M is s M e m e l a t h a t h e w i ll n o t m a k e t h e m e e ti n g . M is s M e m e l a above that ask him Why? If I can go one page back. Can I ask you to r e a d M r K e n n y ’s e m a il a t t h e b o t to m o f 1 2 6 0 ? MR HUMAN C e r ta in ly. Mr Kennys response to Advocate Memela I h a v e a m e e t i n g w i th a c u s t o m e r r e g a r d i n g w o r k i n U g a n d a t a k i n g p l a c e in K i m b e r l e y a n d I a m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t d is c u s s i n g c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t 10 is s u e s w i t h s o m e b o d y w h o is a b id d e r in th e p r o c e s s a n d t h e p r o c e s s is s t il l o n g o i n g . Operate governance issues. H o w e v e r, I w o u l d n o t b e a v a i la b le f o r t h i s m e e t i n g a n y w a y d u e t o p r io r a r r a n g e m e n t s w h ic h h a v e b e e n c o n f ir m e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Th a n k y o u . A n d d o y o u k n o w w h o M r K e n n y is ? MR HUMAN Mr K e n n y w a s th e G e n e r a l M a n g e r m a r k e t in g o r a c t in g g e n e r a l m a n a g e r m a r k e t i n g i s h is s e n i o r e x e c u ti v e o n t h e S A AT Exscope. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA 20 The concern that Mr Kenny is expressing t h e r e i s t h a t o n e t h a t y o u w o u ld s h a r e ? MR HUMAN A b s o l u t e ly CHAIRPERSON MR HUMAN A n d t h e e - m a i l is a d d r e s s e d t o M is s M i m e l a . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n CHAIRPERSON Ye s A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Yo u w il l s e e M is s M e m e la ’s e m a il a b o v e Page 52 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 t h a t s a y s th e p r o c e s s h a s b e e n p u t o n h o l d t o w h i c h M r K e n n y t h e n r e p l ie s a n d s a y s I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t i t is o n h o l d b u t t h a t m e a n s i t i s s t il l o p e n a n d o n g o i n g . Is th a t a ls o a v i e w y o u w o u ld s h a r e ? MR HUMAN I w o u l d s u b s c r i b e t o t h a t, y e s s ir. CHAIRPERSON S o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h a t i s o n h o l d is n o v a li d r e s o n to h a v e t h e s e k i n d o f i n te r a c t i o n s w i th o n e o f th e b i d d e r s . MR HUMAN C o r r e c t s ir. Th e r e w a s a p o s t p o n e m e n t o r h o l d f o r th r e e m o n th s b u t t h e b i d w a s a c ti v e . CHAIRPERSON 10 I t h a d n o t b e e n c a n c e ll e d . MR HUMAN Correct MR HUMAN I t m e a n s t h a t i t c o u l d b e c o n t in u e d a n d f in a l is e d . S o i t w o u ld b e i n a p p r o p r i a te t o e n g a g e w i th s u p p li e r s w h i le t h e r e w a s a n o p e n b i d u n d e r r e v i e w. CHAIRPERSON W o u l d i t b e a n a n s w e r t o s a y, f o r w h a t i t is w o r t h , c o u l d i t b e a n a n s w e r to s a y t h e b i d s w o u l d . Th e c l o s i n g d a t e h a d c o m e a n d g o n e t h e b id s w e r e i n a n d w h o e v e r n e e d s t o e v a l u a te th e m a n d c o n s id e r t h e m i s b o u n d t o c o n s i d e r t h e m o n t h e b a s is o f th e in f o r m a ti o n a lr e a d y p u t i n a n d n o t o n t h e b a s is o f a n y i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t t h e y m i g h t g e t f r o m o t h e r m e e t in g s . W o u l d t h a t b e a n a n s w e r a t a ll ? 20 MR HUMAN T h a t w o u ld b e c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e i n fo r m a t i o n to b e e v a l u a t e d d u r in g t h e b id p r o c e s s w o u ld b e w h a t i s s u b m i t te d o n th e o ffic i a l c lo s i n g d a te . CHAIRPERSON S o , to t h e c o n c e r n t h a t Mr K e n n y r a is e s c o u l d M is s M i m e la s a y t h e r e is n o t h i n g w e a r e g o in g t o d is c u s s t h a t is g o i n g t o fi n d i t is w a y b a c k i n to t h e b i d o r f in d i t is w a y t o in t o t h e b i d Page 53 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 d o c u m e n ts ? S o t h e r e f o r e , t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m w i t h m e m e e ti n g w i th them. MR HUMAN T h e a r g u m e n t th a t M r K e n n y tr ie s to c o n v e y th a t i t is c o n tr a r y to t h e p r o v is io n s o f t h e s u p p l y c h a i n p o li c y. To e n g a g e s u p p li e r s w h i le th e r e is a n o p e n b id a t h a n d . E v e n if A d v o c a t e M i m e la w o u ld a r g u e t h a t a n y a d d i ti o n a l i n f o r m a t io n w o u ld n o t b e c o n c e r n e d d u r i n g t h e b id it is s ti ll v e r y e x p o s e d p r o c e s s f o r u n d u e i n f l u e n c e . CHAIRPERSON If she was not going to be in v o lv e d in any a d j u d ic a ti o n o f i t , b e i t w o u l d t h a t m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e ? I n o t h e r w o r d s , 10 h e r m e e t in g w i t h h e r b id d e r i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e t h e b id s h a d , t h e c lo s i n g d a t e h a d c o m e a n d g o n e a n d s h e w a s n o t i n a n y w a y g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f t h e p e o p l e w h o a d j u d ic a t e t h e b id s . W o u l d t h a t b e a n s w e r to s a y w e l l i t c a n n o t p o s s ib ly a ff e c t th e b i d s b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t s it i n th e c o m m i t t e e s t h a t d e c i d e a n d w h a t e v e r th e y m ig h t d is c u s s th e y c a n n o t s u p p l e m e n t t h e ir b i d . W h a te v e r t h e y h a v e p u t i n t h a t is h o w th e ir b i d w o u ld b e j u d g e d ? MR HUMAN T h a t w o u l d b e a c o r r e c t i n t e r p r e t a ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n . B u t A d v o c a t e M i m e l a w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e g r o u p B A C a n d c a n I j u s t c o n fir m t h e d a t e . 20 CHAIRPERSON N o , n o i t is e n o u g h i f y o u s a y t h a t s h e w a s a C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B A C , d o o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g s h e w o u l d b e in v o lv e d in t h e a d j u d ic a ti o n o f t h e b i d s . ( I n te r v e n e s ) MR HUMAN A s C h a ir p e r s o n CHAIRPERSON S o th a t a r g u m e n t w o u l d n o t b e a v a il a b l e t o h e r Page 54 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR HUMAN C o r r e c t Sir. CHAIRPERSON O k a y. T h a n k y o u A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e la s t p i e c e o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e M r H u m a n I w o u l d li k e y o u t o tu r n to is i n t h e s a m e f il e at Page 1278. CHAIRPERSON S o m a y b e j u s t to c o m p l e te w h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t a m in u te a g o M r H u m a n , th e n t h e p r o h i b it io n o f a n y i n te r a c t i o n w i t h a b i d d e r w h il e a b id i s a t e n d e r is p e n d in g a n d h a s n o t b e e n d e c i d e d t h e r a ti o n a l f o r a p r o h ib i ti n g t h a t k i n d o f i n t e r a c t io n w o u l d a p p ly to h e r f u l ly 10 b e c a u s e a l th o u g h t h is p a r ti c u la r b i d d e r c o u l d n o t a d d a n y d o c u m e n t t o it s b i d . W h a t e v e r w a s d is c u s s e d h e r e c o u ld w e l l i n fl u e n c e h e r th i n k i n g in m a k in g t h e d e c i s i o n e v e n th o u g h i t m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g th a t h a s n o t o n t h e p a p e r s , o n t h e b id . MR HUMAN T h a t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t s ir. CHAIRPERSON Ye s , o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr H u m a n a t t h e b o t to m o f 1 2 7 8 i s a n e m a il fr o m M s J a c k s o n , W h e r e s h e s a y s , “ H i a ll , l a s t w e e k C h r is P h e d is , K e n H e i n a n d I SAA team and Leadership below t h e s c o p e o f w o r k a n d lis t e d i n i t ia t iv e s t h a t S A AT w o u l d l ik e to w o r k 20 with AAR on or explore further as part of our partnership. I f I c a n a s k y o u , i n th a t s c o p e o f w o r k j u s t t o t u r n to o n e t w o e ig h t z e r o . And under timeline” CHAIRPERSON That one two eight zero A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Ye s . U n d e r ti m e li n e c a n y o u t e l l m e w h a t i t s a y s n e a r J u n e fiv e ? Page 55 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR HUMAN I t r e a d s S A AT p o w e r e d b y th e L R F Q , R F P r e q u e s t fo r p r o p o s a l c a n c e l l a ti o n b e c o m e s o ffic i a l . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA D o e s i t s tr ik e y o u a s o d d t h a t A A R w o u ld b e a w a r e M s J a c k s o n s e m a il is d a t e d th e fo u r th o f J u n e , w o u l d b e a w a r e t h a t a c a n c e ll a ti o n o f a t e n d e r o f w h ic h i t w a s a b i d d e r w a s b e c o m i n g o ffic i a l ? MR HUMAN T h a t s tr i k e s m e a s o d d , y e s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON Do you read that item to mean that SAAR had been g iv e n i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t o n th a t d a t e n a m e l y fi v e J u n e . T h e r e q u e s t fo r 10 p r o p o s a l w o u l d b e c a n c e ll e d o ff ic ia lly. T h a t is h o w y o u r e a d i t . MR HUMAN Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . I t a p p e a r s ir r e g u la r th a t a b i d d e r is a w a r e t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e a c a n c e l la t io n p r i o r to t h e d a t e o f t h a t c a n c e l la t io n . I t w o u ld s u g g e s t to m e t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n m a d e a v a il a b l e w e r e m a d e a v a i la b l e t o th e s u p p li e r o u t s i d e o f th e n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t process. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA I f y o u s t a y i n t h e t i m e l i n e a n d y o u g o to J u n e f i ft e e n t o s e v e n te e n i t s a y s P B H c o n tr a c t m e e t i n g s d u r in g P a ir s a ir s h o w s i g n M O U B E E s tr u c t u r e d d is c u s s i o n J u n e t w e n t y tw o t o t w e n ty s ix S A AT M R O . 20 T h e n a t J u n e t h ir ty w h a t d o e s i t s a y t h e r e ? MR HUMAN S i g n p o w e r b y o u r c o n tr a c t w i t h S A AT. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA MR HUMAN D o e s t h a t s tr ik e y o u a s u n u s u a l a t a ll ? Ye s , b e c a u s e t h i s w o u ld b e a c o n tr a c t o u t o f a n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s in it w o u l d b e q u it e s tr a n g e to c a n c e l a t e n d e r b u t t h e n to s i g n a c o n tr a c t . Page 56 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA F o r w h a t lo o k s l ik e , th e s a m e s e r v ic e s t h a t w e r e t h e s u b j e c t o f t h e t e n d e r. MR HUMAN Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA I f w e c a n th e n t u r n t o y o u r a ffi d a v it M r H u m a n . Th a t i s D D 2 2 ( a ) . A n d w e p ic k i t u p f r o m p a r a g r a p h 6 8 . C a n y o u t e ll u s w h e th e r a n M O U w a s u l t i m a te ly c o n c l u d e d ? MR HUMAN C h a ir p e r s o n a M O U w a s c o n c l u d e d a n d s u b m i t te d fo r s ig n a tu r e d u r i n g t h e P a r i s a ir s h o w. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA 10 A n d a r e y o u a b le t o s a y w h a t in b r o a d t e r m s it p r o v id e d f o r ? CHAIRPERSON I a m s o r r y, d i d y o u s a y p a r a g r a p h s ix e ig h t? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA CHAIRPERSON S ix ty - e ig h t C h a ir. O k a y, y e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA I t is fr o m s i x ty - e i g h t o n w a r d s M r H u m a n d e a ls w i th t h e M O U . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Mr H u m a n a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y i n b r o a d t e r m s w h a t t h e M O U p r o v i d e d fo r ? MR HUMAN T h e M O U p r o v i d e d fo r t h e c o l la b o r a t i o n b e t w e e n t h e A A R a n d S A AT c o n c e r n in g t h e p r o v i s i o n o f c o m p o n e n ts t h e s o c a l le d jo i n e d 20 v e n tu r e t h a t w a s c o n t e m p l a t e d a n d I h a v e th e n e x t t o m y a ff id a v i t C h a ir p e r s o n a s S H tw e n ty s e v e n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA C h a ir I d o n o t t h i n k i t i s n e c e s s a r y t o g o there. CHAIRPERSON Ye s , l e t m e a s k t h is q u e s t io n . c o l l a b o r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t . Is th a t r i g h t? Page 57 of 142 T h e y c a ll e d t h i s 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR HUMAN Ye s s ir CHAIRPERSON A t t h a t s ta g e , d i d t h e c o l l a b o r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t n o t a lr e a d y g iv e A A R t h e r ig h t to p r o v i d e th e s e r v ic e s o r c o m p o n e n ts th a t w e r e th e s u b j e c t f o r t h e t e n d e r o r i t w a s j u s t q u i c k g u e s s e r t o t h a t k i n d of agreement. MR HUMAN C h a ir p e r s o n , o n t h i s d a t e t h e c o l la b o r a t i o n a g r e e m e n t w a s n o t y e t f o r m a lly s i g n e d i t w a s o n ly t h e M O U i n d ic ti n g th e in t e n t to e n d u p i n a fo r m a l s i g n e d c o n t r a c t . L a t e r o n i n t h i s a ffi d a v i t w e d o e l a b o r a t e a li t tl e b i t m o r e o n h o w th a t p r o c e s s u n f o ld s . 10 CHAIRPERSON Okay A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA O n t h e , th e f u r th e r n e g o t i a t i o n fo r a m o r e d e f in i tiv e c o n tr a c t w e l l I t h i n k l e t u s g o t h e r e M r H u m a n . Yo u d e a l w it h that at paragraph 82. MR HUMAN T h a t is c o r r e c t A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Te ll u s w h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t r e f e r r e d t o t h e r e are. MR HUMAN C h a ir, t h e in t e n t w a s , th e p r o c e s s o f c o n fir m i n g t h e c o l l a b o r a ti o n a g r e e m e n t w a s in i ti a te d b y M r Ve d u s b y e m a il b y w h e r e h e s u b m it t e d d r a f t l e t te r o f a g r e e m e n t a n d w h e r e r e q u e s ts c la r i fi c a t io n . 20 N o w t h e m a i n in t e n t w a s t o e n te r i n to n e g o t ia t io n s f o r t h e a c c e p t a b l e d e f in i te w r i t te n a g r e e m e n t i n t h e p r o v is io n s . Th a t i s th e s t a n d a r d t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s . S e r v ic e s , th e s c o p e t h e r e o f a n d o b v io u s ly I a n t ic i p a te pricing would be part of that. component services. I t s p e c if ic a l ly p e r ta in s t o r o u t a b l e W h ic h w a s th e i n t e n t o f t h e o r i g i n a l R F P i n t h e fir s t i n s ta n c e . L e t te r c o n t a i n s a r e f e r e n c e t o e x c lu s iv i ty th a t m a k e s i t Page 58 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 in c u m b e n t o n S A AT n o t t o e n g a g e w i th a n y o th e r p o te n ti a l s e r v ic e providers. S o t h i s a g r e e m e n t , t h e c o l la b o r a t io n a g r e e m e n t is n o t h in g e l s e t h a n t h e r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l i n a d i ff e r e n t f o r m a t c a ll e d a C o ll a b o r a ti o n Agreement. I n i ts i n t e n t a n d s p ir i t i t i s e x a c tl y th e s e r v i c e s th a t w a s r e q u ir e d fr o m t h e R F P p r o c e s s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d M r H u m a n t h is is o n t h e t h ir d o f J u ly s o i t is a ft e r t h e b o a r d is r e s o l v e d to r e tr a c t . W o u l d i t b e fa ir t o s a y t h e n th a t S A AT a n d A A R a r e in n e g o ti a ti o n s to c o n c lu d e a c o n t r a c t f o r 10 t h e v e r y s e r v ic e s t h a t h a d b e e n t h e s u b j e c t m a t te r o f t h e t e n d e r t h a t was retracted? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w o u ld b e a n a c c u r a t e a r t ic u l a ti o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I w o u ld l i k e t o j u m p a h e a d in th e c h r o n o lo g y a b it , tw o c o n c e r n s t h a t w e r e r a is e d a b o u t w h a t w e h a v e b e e n s p e a k in g a b o u t b y o n e o f th e b o a r d m e m b e r s Mr P a r s o n s . Are y o u a b l e t o a r t ic u l a te f o r u s w h a t c o n c e r n s h e r a i s e d ? M R H U M A N : C h a ir, Mr P a r s o n s w a s a N o n - Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r s e r v i n g o n th e b o a r d a n d h e h a d c e r t a in c o n c e r n s . T h e y r e la t e t o g o v e r n a n c e . T h e y r e la t e t o t h e f a c t t h a t th e M o U w e r e n o t m a d e a v a i la b le to th e 20 b o a r d in t i m e a n d t h a t h is c o m m e n c e o n w h a t h e s a w a s f a u l t li n e s o r w e a k n e s s e s i n t h e M o U w e r e n o t a d e q u a t e ly a d d r e s s e d . H e w a s a ls o c o n c e r n e d t h a t in t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 5 4 o f th e P F M A a n E x e c u ti v e A u t h o r i ty l ik e S A AT n e e d s t o e n g a g e t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y w h e n i t in t e n d s t o e n t e r i n to u n i n c o r p o r a t e d j o i n t v e n tu r e s a m o n g s t o t h e r. H e a d d r e s s e d h is c o n c e r n i n w r i ti n g t o th e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y a t t h e t i m e . Page 59 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w a s d o n e in r e s p o n s e to h is concerns? MR HUMAN: A le g a l o p in i o n w a s i n v it e d t h r o u g h t h e g r o u p le g a l s e r v ic e s w h ic h s o l ic it e d a n o p in i o n f r o m a p r iv a te f ir m c a l l e d C li ff e D e k k e r H o f m e y r a n d t h e e x p e r t th a t w a s a s s i g n e d w a s a M r A r r i e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t f u r t h e r s t e p s d i d M r P a r s o n s t a k e ? M R H U M A N : Mr P a r s o n s t h e r e a f t e r r a is e d h i s c o n c e r n s to th e c h a ir o f t h e b o a r d M s K w i n a n a w h e r e h e e x p r e s s e d h is c o n c e r n t h a t h e i s t h e M o U w i t h t h e p o in ts t h a t h e i n d ic a t e d a s s e r v e d b e f o r e t h e S A A b o a r d 10 with any improvements or alterations that would address his concerns a n d m i ti g a t e w h a t h e h a s p o i n t e d o u t a s g o v e r n a n c e - a b r e a k in governance. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w a s M r P a r s o n s fi n a l s t e p ? M R H U M A N : M r P a r s o n s t h e n s u b m it t e d h is r e s i g n a ti o n w i t h i m m e d i a t e e ffe c t. A n d t h a t c h a ir p e r s o n h a p p e n e d o n - s o r r y, i f y o u c a n j u s t h e lp m e t o g e t t h e e x a c t d a te . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I a m g o i n g t o a s k y o u to g o t o Mr P a r s o n s r e s ig n a ti o n le t t e r. MR HUMAN: Sure. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n g o to D D 2 2 D . CHAIRPERSON: What is the page number? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 1 6 7 6 . MR HUMAN: 17? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 1676. C a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d t h e fir s t tw o p a r a g r a p h s o f th a t ? Page 60 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 M R H U M A N : C e r t a i n l y. C h a ir p e r s o n t h e h e a d in g i s , R e s i g n a t io n fr o m S A A Te c h n i c a l B o a r d . P l e a s e a c c e p t m y r e s i g n a ti o n w i t h i m m e d ia t e e ffe c t f r o m t h e b o a r d o f d ir e c t o r s o f S A A Te c h n ic a l S O C L i m i t e d . I fe e l I h a v e m a d e a s tr o n g c o n tr i b u t i o n to th e b o a r d fi n d i n g g o v e r n a n c e i n t h e b u s i n e s s w e e k a f t e r w h a t h a d a p p e a r e d y e a r s o f n e g l e c t . U n fo r t u n a t e ly, t h e v a lu e I c a n a d d s e e m s n o l o n g e r w a n t e d a n d i t is q u i t e c l e a r l y d u e to t h e A A R C o r p o r a ti o n s tr a t e g ic p a r tn e r s h ip . T h e r e is c l e a r l y a h i d d e n a g e n d a s o m e w h e r e i n t h i s r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d i t r e q u ir e s u r g e n t i n d e p e n d e n t 10 in v e s t i g a t io n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . S o , w o u ld i t b e f a i r t o s a y th a t M r P a r s o n s s o u l r e a s o n f o r r e s i g n i n g is t h e p r o p o s e d p a r t n e r s h i p w i t h AAR? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t s ir. CHAIRPERSON: I t m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y to h i g h l ig h t s o m e o f t h e f e a t u r e s o r o t h e r f e a tu r e s o f th e l e t te r. I a m n o t s u r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir th e t h r u s t o f t h e le t t e r is Mr P a r s o n s 20 is r a is in g i s s u e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e fa c t t h a t t h e is s u e s h e h a d r a is e d in t h e p a s t h a v e n o t b e e n a d e q u a t e ly a d d r e s s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k l e t M r H u m a n j u s t r e a d t h e w h o l e o f t h a t le t t e r. Page 61 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y. P l e a s e g o a h e a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : It s e e m s t o b e a n i m p o r t a n t le t t e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C e r t a i n ly C h a ir. M R H U M A N : C h a ir p e r s o n , n o w t h e t h i r d p a r a g r a p h r e a d s a s fo ll o w s ; A memorandum of understanding was signed by S A A Te c h n ic a l M a n a g e m e n t w i t h A A R o n 1 6 J u n e 2 0 1 5 w h ic h b a s e d o n t h e v e r s i o n fi n a l ly d i s t r i b u t e d a t b o th m y in s is t e n c e a n d p e r s is te n c e t o th e S A A Te c h n i c a l a n d S A A b o a r d s o n t h e 1 s t o f J u ly i s fu n d a m e n t a l ly f la w e d . I sought 10 g u id a n c e on t h is matter fr o m th e S A A Te c h n ic a l Board c h a ir p e r s o n o n t h e 2 n d o f J u ly h o w e v e r I h a v e r e c e iv e d o n ly a p o o r a n d e v a s i v e e x p la n a ti o n fr o m m a n a g e m e n t . A n d I w a s s h o c k e d t o th e s e e t h e s a m e v e r s io n o f th e M o U s u b m i tt e d t o t h e S A A B o a r d t h e s h a r e h o l d e r f o r th e b o a r d m e e ti n g o n th e 1 0 t h o f J u ly o v e r t h r e e w e e k s a ft e r t h e e x e c u ti o n . O n 1 3 J u ly t h e S A A Te c h n i c a l B o a r d c h a ir p e r s o n o ff e r e d to m e e t t o u n d e r s t a n d m y c o n c e r n s a n d th is w a s s c h e d u l e d fo r 1 7 J u ly a n d th e n p o s tp o n e d to t h e 2 4 t h o f J u l y. My concerns are quite concise and s u m m a r i s e d i n t h e a t ta c h e d e m a i l r e a d A n n e x u r e A . However there a p p e a r s t o b e n o h u r r y to e n s u r e e i th e r S A A Te c h n ic a l o r th e S A A 20 b o a r d s a r e e i t h e r b r i e f e d o r r e c e i v e d th e c o r r e c t v e r s io n o f th is M o U a n d a r e a b l e to u n d e r s t a n d t h e f u l l i m p lic a ti o n s o f t h e s tr a t e g i c p a r t n e r s h i p o r a n y i m p l e m e n ta t io n s te p s a lr e a d y c o m p l e t e d fi v e w e e k s a ft e r t h e e x e c u ti o n . A p a r t fr o m t h e l a c k o f v is i b i li ty o f th e p r e c i s e n a t u r e o f t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d th e o v e r a ll g o v e r n a n c e I h a v e s p e c i f ic c o n c e r n s w h e t h e r t h e Page 62 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 r e q u ir e m e n t I r a is e d a t t h e l a s t S A A Te c h n ic a l b o a r d m e e t in g i n M a y fo r t h e p a r tn e r s h ip t o d e li v e r l o w e r m a i n t e n a n c e c o s t t o S A A a n d M a n g o is f u ll y considered. Having c a n c e ll e d the c o m p o n e n ts tender to a c c o m m o d a t e t h e e x c l u s iv it y i n t h e A A R r e l a ti o n s h i p w e a r e a l r e a d y a d v e r s e ly i m p a c ti n g b o t h S A A a n d M a n g o ’s m a i n t e n a n c e c o s t f o r th e fi n a n c i a l y e a r 2 0 1 6 fr o m a p o s i t io n w h e r e th e c o s t b a s e o f S A A Te c h n i c a l is a lr e a d y u n c o m p e ti ti v e . T h i s c o n s e q u e n t ly i m p a c ts t h e c o s t c o m p r e s s i o n ta r g e ts c o m m i t t e d to N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n th e 2 0 1 5 S A A C o r p o r a te P l a n . 10 M y o th e r s p e c i f ic c o n c e r n is t h e id e n t i fi c a ti o n a n d s e l e c ti o n fo r B E E p a r t n e r s f o r th e p u r p o s e o f a j o i n t v e n t u r e . A p r o c e s s t h a t n e e d s t o b e h i g h ly t r a n s p a r e n t i n a b u s i n e s s t h a t h a s a lr e a d y h a s u n c o m p e ti t iv e c o s t b a s e . T h e c o p y o f th e M o U r e c e iv e d i n c l u d e s a n i m p l e m e n ta t io n ti m e t a b l e t h a t s u g g e s t th e p r o c e s s m a y a lr e a d y b e s i g n i f ic a n t ly a d v a n c e d a n d t h e r e i s n o v is i b i li ty o f th is t o e i th e r t h e S A A Te c h n ic a l b o a r d o r t o N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y. I h o p e t h e c o m p a n y s h a r e s m y c o n c e r n s a n d a p p r e c ia t e I c a n h a v e n o c o n fi d e n c e i n th e i n t e g r i ty o f t h e S A A Te c h n i c a l b o a r d . A n d my m e m b e r s h ip o f th a t b o a r d h a s b e c o m e a r e p u t a t i o n a l m a t t e r a n d i t is a 20 s i m p l e d e c is i o n t o s u b m i t m y r e s i g n a t io n . Yo u r s s i n c e r e l y L a r r y P a r s o n s . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I d id n o t a s k y o u a c e r t a i n q u e s ti o n th a t I t h o u g h t I w o u l d a s k y o u m u c h e a r l ie r. W h e n w e w e r e l o o k in g a t o n e o f t h e r e s o l u ti o n s o f t h e S A AT b o a r d t h a t w e lo o k e d a t e a r l ie r th e r e w a s a r e s o l u ti o n t h a t w a s a p p r o v in g th e c o n c l u s i o n o f I t h i n k m e m o r a n d u m o f Page 63 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 u n d e r s t a n d in g w i t h A A R . A n d t h e n t o w a r d s th e e n d t h e s e n t e n c e s a i d “and recommended to SAA”. D o y o u r e m e m b e r s e e i n g s o m e t h in g l ik e that? M R H U M A N : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t i n r e g a r d t o th e M o U o r w a s i t i n r e g a r d t o s o m e t h i n g e ls e ? M R H U M A N : I t w a s s p e c i fi c a ll y t o th e M o U . C H A I R P E R S O N : M o U . I w a n t e d to f in d o u t w h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is o f t h a t l a s t p o r ti o n . T h a t t h e S A AT b o a r d w a s r e c o m m e n d i n g s o m e t h i n g 10 t o t h e S A A b o a r d a n d if i t w a s th e M o U , w h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t- h o w t h a t c a m e a b o u t ? H o w d o t h e y - h o w d o e s t h e b o a r d o f o n e e n t i ty r e c o m m e n d s o m e t h in g f o r t h e b o a r d o f a n o th e r e n ti t y e v e n i f t h e y are in the same group? M R H U M A N : Ye s . C h a i r p e r s o n , S A AT is 1 0 0 % o w n e d b y t h e S A A m a i n g r o u p a n d t h e r e f o r e th e m a i n s h a r e h o l d e r s s o i n t h e i r fr a m e w o r k th e r e is a r e q u ir e m e n t t o r e p o r t o n m a te r i a l tr a n s a c t io n s . c o n s ti t u te a m a t e r i a l tr a n s a c ti o n . This would A n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t t h e b o a r d ’s r a t io n a l to s u b m i t i t t o S A A w a s fir s t f o r n o t i n g p u r p o s e s b u t a ls o b e c a u s e i t r e p r e s e n t e d a h u g e f i n a n c i a l a s p e c t o f i t s a n n u a l 20 t u r n o v e r. CHAIRPERSON: I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d t h a t p o r t io n o f th a t r e s o l u ti o n . I t h o u g h t i t m e a n t s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h e l i n e s t h a t t h e S A AT b o a r d w a s r e c o m m e n d in g t h a t S A A s h o u ld h a v e a s i m il a r M o U w i th AAR. B u t p r o b a b ly t h a t i s n o t w h a t i t m e a n t . It meant they were r e c o m m e n d i n g t h a t S A A s h o u l d a p p r o v e t h a t t h e y h a v e t h is M o U w i t h Page 64 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A A R . Is t h a t r ig h t ? M R H U M A N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . Th e i n te n ti o n w a s n o t f o r S A A t o h a v e a s i m il a r M o U . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : I t w a s a s u b m is s io n f o r t h e n o ti n g a n d i n d o r s e m e n t b y t h e SAA board. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Thank you. M r Human if we can return to y o u r a ff id a v i t, I w o u l d l ik e t o n o w m o v e o n t o t e n d e r S P 4 5 1 /1 5 a n d 4 5 3 / 1 5 . T h a t i s in D D 2 2 A , t h e fi le w i t h y o u r a ffi d a v it o n p a g e 2 8 fr o m 10 paragraph 98. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u d o - y o u m o v e o n . Th e M r P a r s o n s l e t t e r o f r e s i g n a t io n s a y s a t th e e n d o f p a r a g r a p h 2 t h a t th e r e s h o u l d b e a n u r g e n t i n d e p e n d e n t i n v e s ti g a ti o n . Do you know whether the company s e c r e t a r y o r t h e b o a r d e i t h e r o f S A A o r S A AT t o o k t h a t s u g g e s ti o n a n d f o ll o w e d it u p ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n y e s , a le g a l o p i n i o n w a s r e q u e s te d fr o m C l i ffe D e k k e r H o f m e y r a n d I t h i n k w e a r e g o i n g to d e a l w i t h th a t s h o r t ly o n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Did you say Advocate Hofmeyr? 20 M R H U M A N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t th is o n e ? O k a y. M R H U M A N : I t w a s a s li p o f t h e t o n g u e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R H U M A N : N o p u n i n te n d e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, i t is n o t c l e a r t o m e t h a t t h a t w a s i n Page 65 of 142 Commented [BD1]: 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 r e s p o n s e t o Mr P a r s o n s r e s i g n a t io n le t t e r b e c a u s e t h e o p i n i o n t h a t w e h a v e fr o m C D H is a d r a f t p r e l i m in a r y o n e w h ic h p r e d a te s M r P a r s o n s r e s ig n a ti o n . I a m n o t s u r e t h a t w e a r e a w a r e o f a n y o t h e r i n d e p e n d e n t in v e s t i g a t io n th a t w a s u n d e r t a k e n p o s t Mr P a r s o n s r e s i g n a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr H u m a n , d o y o u g o a l o n g w i t h t h a t o r d o y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e i n d e p e n d e n t i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t f o ll o w e d h is r e s ig n a ti o n ? B a s e d o n t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d m in u t e s t h a t y o u h a v e seen. M R H U M A N : C h a ir I w a s o f th e o p i n i o n t h a t t h e e m a il d a t e d 2 7 J u l y o n 10 p a r a g r a p h 9 7 o f m y a ff i d a v i t i s a r e s p o n s e to M r P a r s o n s c o n c e r n s a n d t h a t Mr Ar r i e in h is r e s p o n s e t o t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t a n d A d v o c a t e M e m e l a r a is e d - s a y s t h a t M r P a r s o n s h a s m o s t ly r a is e d n o n le g a l is s u e s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M R H U M A N : B u t t h e o n l y t h in g th a t h e is - th a t n e e d s to b e c o r r e c te d i s t h e s ig n in g o f t h e M o U a n d t h e n t o s u b m i t i t t o t h e b o a r d . I am r e fe r r i n g t o p a r a g r a p h 9 7 o f t h e a ff id a v i t a n d A n n e x 5 4 A a s a s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . 20 M R H U M A N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t . I th i n k c a n w e c la r i fy j u s t t h e ti m i n g ? Mr P a r s o n s r e s i g n e d o n 2 4 J u l y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . MR HUMAN: A n d th e n t h i s e m a il th a t w a s p r o v i d e d t o m e a n d t h a t I h a v e a c c e s s c o n f ir m s t h a t o n t h e 2 7 J u ly th is r e s p o n s e h a s b e e n f o r th c o m i n g . Page 66 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir w e c a n g o t o th e r e s p o n s e fr o m C li ff e D e k k e r H o f m e y r. I d o n o t t h i n k i t is a n i n d e p e n d e n t i n v e s ti g a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t i s a r e s p o n s e fr o m . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s ) MR HUMAN: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r A r r i e t o th e in t e r n a l le g a l p e r s o n a t S A AT s i m p l y s a y in g t h a t h e c a n n o t r e a lly d e a l w it h i t b e c a u s e it r a is e s s o m e n o n - le g a l is s u e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 MR HUMAN: I agree with that. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e w i th t h a t ? M R H U M A N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV MICHAEL M B I K I WA : C h a ir of course the independent in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t w e d o h a v e i n t h e r e c o r d a r e t h o s e c o n d u c t e d b y O p e n W a t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : B u t t h a t o f c o u r s e o c c u r s m u c h la t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n 2 0 1 7 . M r H u m a n , c a n w e t h e n d e a l w i t h t e n d e r S P 4 5 1 /1 5 a n d 4 5 3 / 1 5 , w h a t w e r e t h e s e t e n d e r s a n d h o w d i d t h e y d i ff e r fr o m th e p r e v i o u s o n e s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e g o in g b a c k to h i s a ff i d a v i t n o w ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e a r e a t h i s a ffi d a v i t C h a ir a t p a g e 2 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Page 67 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O n p a r a g r a p h 9 8 . M R H U M A N : C h a ir p e r s o n t h e s e t w o t e n d e r s a r e n o w n u m b e r 3 a n d 4 o f t h e 5 te n d e r s t h a t w e r e p u b l is h e d t o s o li c i t t h e c o m p o n e n t s e r v ic e s . I t w a s a g r e e d t h a t t h is s h o u l d b e a c l o s e d b id a n d t h a t S A AT w o u l d o n l y in v i te a n u m b e r o f s u p p l ie r s . So, in tender number 3 (451/15) was a s h o r t- te r m t e n d e r t o o b t a i n s e r v ic e s f o r fi v e m o n t h s a n d it w a s is s u e d t o o n ly fi v e s u p p l i e r s , A ir Fr a n c e , Is r a e l A e r o s p a c e , P e g a s u s a n d L u f t h a n s a . L a t e r - I a p o l o g is e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C o n t i n u e . P l e a s e c o n t i n u e . 10 MR HUMAN: I t l a te r a p p e a r e d fr o m t h e a d v ic e a ls o f r o m C D H t h a t S A AT w o u l d b e a t r is k n o t to in v i t e a b i d fr o m A A R . The reason why A A R w a s e x c lu d e d fr o m t h e c l o s e d b i d i s u n b e k n o w n to m e . B u t i t w a s r e m e d i e d w h e n th is v e r y s a m e t e n d e r, t h e v e r y s a m e r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l w a s t h e n is s u e d u n d e r S P 4 5 3 /1 5 t o A A R t o m a k e t h is p r o c e s s c o m p le t e . S o , 4 5 3 is r e a lly j u s t a r e is s u i n g o f th e s a m e te n d e r a l s o to AAR. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t i s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h y t h e y w e r e o n ly a fo u r o r fiv e m o n th c o n tr a c t? M R H U M A N : T h e r e a s o n s w h y it w a s o n ly a fo u r o r fi v e m o n t h c o n t r a c t 20 is t o a l lo w e n o u g h ti m e t o f in a lis e th e a g r e e m e n t w i t h A A R w i th c o l l a b o r a ti o n p a r t n e r s h i p . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o , i n o th e r w o r d s i t is in p u r s u a n c e o f th e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n r e tr a c t in g th e p r e v i o u s te n d e r. MR HUMAN: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r A A R d id s u b m i t a Page 68 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 bid? MR HUMAN: Ye s , A A R d i d s u b m it a b id a ft e r a s k i n g fo r e x t e n s io n in the response time. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h o it s B E E p a r t n e r was? M R H U M A N : T h e b i d s u b m is s io n t h a t w a s s u b m i tt e d i n d i c a t e s t h a t A A R id e n t i fi e d N z iz a Av i a ti o n a s it s s tr a t e g i c p a r t n e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h o w a s t h is t e n d e r u l ti m a t e ly a w a r d e d to? 10 M R H U M A N : T h is t e n d e r w a s a ls o n o t a w a r d e d . A d e c is i o n w a s ta k e n t o e x t e n d i t t o A ir F r a n c e f o r a c o n t i n u i ty o f s e r v ic e , t h e r a ti o n a l b e in g t o c o n c l u d e th e a g r e e m e n t w i th A A R in t h e m e a n t i m e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u r e v i d e n c e a t p a r a g r a p h 11 4 is t h a t t h e b o a r d i n fa c t r e s o lv e d t o a w a r d i t to A ir Fr a n c e . MR HUMAN: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : B u t t h a t t h a t w a s a n a w a r d o f t h e te n d e r. M R H U M A N : I t a w a r d o f t h e f iv e m o n t h te n d e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o j u s t t o c l a r i fy f r o m y o u r p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e . W a s i t s i m p ly a n e x t e n s io n o f A i r F r a n c e a s t h e i n c u m b e n t o r 20 w a s i t a n a w a r d o f a n e w te n d e r t o Ai r F r a n c e ? M R H U M A N : I t w a s a n a w a r d to A ir Fr a n c e n o t a n e x te n s i o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A lr ig h t . M u c h o f w h a t y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h i n r e s p e c t o f th e s e t w o t e n d e r s w e h e a r d fr o m M s S a m b o y e s te r d a y. S o , I in t e n d t o p r o c e e d t o w h a t y o u h a v e d e s c r i b e d a s th e 5 t h t e n d e r a n d t o d e a l w it h s o m e o f t h e p r o c e s s is s u e s in r e s p e c t o f t h a t i n s o m e d e t a i l . Page 69 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 S o , i f w e c a n t u r n t o p a g e 3 7 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . C a n y o u te ll u s w h a t th is t e n d e r w a s a n d h o w i t d i ff e r e d f r o m p r e v i o u s ly ? MR HUMAN: Th is te n d e r i s a r e q u e s t f o r s e r v ic e s f o r 5 y e a r s f o r c o m p o n e n t te n d e r a n d i s i n e s s e n c e t h e v e r y s a m e a s th e p r e v i o u s tenders. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I w o u l d li k e to t a k e y o u t o t h e b i d i n v it a ti o n d o c u m e n t j u s t to f o c u s o n a f e w c la u s e s i n i t . I f I c a n a s k y o u t o g o to E x h i b i t D D 2 2 E a n d p a g e 2 0 4 3 . I t is D D 2 2 E , 2 0 4 3 . C a n y o u r e a d f o r u s w h a t th e d a t e is s u e d i s ? 10 M R H U M A N : Th e s e n d e r w a s .. . ( in t e r v e n e s ) A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y, l e t m e .. . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Hang on. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : L e t m e p a u s e . C h a ir, I s e e y o u h a v e n o t y e t g o t y o u r fi le . It is 2 0 4 3 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 2043. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : E x h i b i t 8 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h is ? Is t h i s a n R F B ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th is is t h e R F B f o r w h a t w e a r e d e s c r i b in g a s th e 5 t h t e n d e r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O n t h e a ff i d a v i t w h e r e d o e s t h e 5 t h te n d e r start? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e 5 t h t e n d e r s t a r ts o n p a g e 3 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e h e a d i n g is o n 3 6 . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s , th e h e a d i n g i s a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e page. Page 70 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : B u t t h e r e is n o p a r a g r a p h b e l o w i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o , w e s ta r t a t p a g e - p a r a g r a p h 1 3 3 . Mr H u m a , c a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t th e is s u e d d a t e a n d th e c l o s i n g d a t e w a s o f t h is t e n d e r ? MR HUMAN: Ye s , s o t h e i s s u e d d a t e w a s 8 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d t h e c lo s i n g d a te 1 9 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . A n d i f I c a n t a k e y o u j u s t t o a 10 f e w c l a u s e s i n t h i s d o c u m e n t . C a n y o u tu r n f ir s t t o 2 0 6 2 ? CHAIRPERSON: W e ll m a y b e l e t u s fir s t g e t t h e w i t n e s s t o c o n f ir m w h e r e th e d o c u m e n t e n d s . It s t a r ts a t 2 0 4 3 a n d e n d s a t w h a t p a g e ? Is it 2 0 8 6 ? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. A r e y o u a t 2 0 6 2 ? M R H U M A N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t is t h a t ta b l e ? M R H U M A N : Th e ta b le f o u n d o n p a g e 2 0 6 2 is th e c r i tic a l c r i t e r ia t h a t 20 s u p p li e r s a r e r e q u ir e d t o c o m p ly t o , t o q u a li fy fo r t h i s b i d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t is t h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f n o t c o m p ly in g ? MR HUMAN: If t h e c r i tic a l c r i t e r i a is n o t m e t th is - th e b i d w i ll n o t p r o c e e d to t h e n e x t p h a s e o f e v a l u a t i o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n - i n t h e t a b l e i f y o u g o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Well let him read all of them. Page 71 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y. I f y o u w o u ld r e a d e a c h o f t h o s e c r i ti c a l c r it e r ia M r H u m a n . M R H U M A N : Th e fi r s t o n e is , s u ffi c i e n t e x p e r i e n c e d a n d e q u ip m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S u ffi c i e n t ly e x p e r i e n c e d a n d e q u ip p e d . M R H U M A N : E q u ip p e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H U M A N : Th a n k s C h a ir. Is o f s u ffic ie n t s o u n d fi n a n c i a l s t a n d i n g t o c a r r y o u t s a t is f a c to r y a n y c o n tr a c t t h a t m a y b e a w a r d e d p u r s u a n t to t h e t e n d e r. 10 M u s t b e c e r ti f ie d f o r FA A E A S A a s a r e p a i r s t a ti o n . FA A i s th e F e d e r a l Av i a ti o n A u t h o r i ty, t h e A m e r i c a n e q u iv a l e n t o f o u r C iv il Av i a ti o n A u t h o r i ty a n d E A S A i s th e E u r o p e a n Av ia t i o n A u t h o r i ty. M u s t o ff e r a n d a c c e s s p o o l o r e x c h a n g e b a s e s . N o f a u l t f o u n d r a te 2 0 % B E R r a t e .. . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u k n o w w h a t th a t r e q u ir e m e n t r e l a te s to ? No f a u l t f o u n d r a te ? T h a t is a r a t e f o r w h a t ? M R H U M A N : C h a ir p e r s o n s o m e t i m e s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u k n o w. M R H U M A N : I k n o w. A c o m p o n e n t m i g h t b e r e m o v e d , s e n t t o a r e p a ir 20 f a c i li ty a n d w h e n t h e y te s t i t , it is w o r k i n g p e r fe c t ly. A n d t o e n c o u r a g e M R O s t o d o d e c e n t f a u l t f i n d in g b e f o r e s p e n d in g e x c e s s iv e m o n e y, th e y c h a r g e a r a t e o f 2 0 % t o d e t e r t h i s p r a c t ic e o f j u s t w il ly - n i ll y s e n d i n g a c o m p o n e n t fo r t e s ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . M R H U M A N : B E R r a te is B e y o n d E c o n o m i c R e p a i r r a t e o f 7 0 % . Page 72 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Can I just pause you there? What does it m e a n f o r t h e B E R r a t e to b e 7 0 % ? C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d ju s t r e m i n d m e a ls o w h a t B E R s t a n d s f o r. MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n a c o m p o n e n t is f a u l ty a n d s e n t t o a r e p a ir fa c il i ty a n d th e r e p a i r c o s t w o u l d e v e n t u a l ly b e m o r e t h a n t h e c o s t o f a n e w o n e . T h e n i t i s n o t r e a lly w o r t h w h il e t o . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : It is l ik e a w r it e - o ff i f i t w a s a c a r. M R H U M A N : Ye s s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . 10 M R H U M A N : I t i s n o t w o r t h w h il e to . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p a ir i t . M R H U M A N : C o r r e c t. J a a n d i n s t e a d o f t h e n p a y i n g t h e f u ll v a l u e o f t h e r e p a i r t h is te n d e r a s k s f o r t h a t 7 0 % w ill b e c o v e r e d a n d t h a t S A AT w i ll o n ly p a y 3 0 % o f t h e v a lu e . S o t h is . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: S o y e s , a t a p r a c ti c a l l e v e l le t u s s a y a c o m p o n e n t w a s f o u n d t o b e a w r i t e - o ff a s i t w e r e , w h a t w o u ld t h a t m e a n fo r S A AT ? I n t h e - w h a t o r f o r a n y s e r v ic e p r o v id e r o r a n y e n ti ty i n i ts p o s it i o n , what did this mean? D i d i t m e a n t h a t th e y w o u l d n o t- th e y w o u ld b e c h a r g e d 7 0 % o f w h a t o t h e r w is e i t w o u l d h a v e c o s t t h e m to h a v e t h e 20 c o m p o n e n t r e p a ir e d ? I n o t h e r w o r d s , t h e r e i s s p e c ia l d is p e n s a t i o n t h a t a l t h o u g h n o r m a lly y o u w o u l d n o t r e p a ir s u c h a c o m p o n e n t b e c a u s e it is a w r i te - o ff . MR HUMAN: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll r e p a i r it b u t y o u w o u l d c h a r g e u s o n l y 7 0 % . Is t h a t w h a t i t m e a n s ? Page 73 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 M R H U M A N : C h a ir p e r s o n m o r e o r l e s s . I t m e a n s t h a t if a c o m p o n e n t is f o u n d th a t t h e c o s t o f r e p a ir i n g i t w o u l d n o t r e a l ly b e w o r th w h i le i t s h o u l d b e w r i t te n o ff t h a t t h is s u p p li e r n e e d s t o c a r r y 7 0 % o f t h e c o s t . S o if t h e v a l u e w a s R 1 0 0 , 0 0 – R 7 0 . 0 0 w o u l d b e f o r th e a c c o u n t o f th e s u p p li e r a n d S A AT w o u ld n e e d t o p a y R 3 0 .0 0 t o w a r d s th is c o m p o n e n t . I t i s a l m o s t l ik e a n i n s u r a n c e p o lic y. E v e r y m o n t h y o u p a y in s u r a n c e f o r y o u r c a r a n d i f i t is w r i t t e n o ff th e r e is a n a c c e s s a m o u n t t h a t y o u – t h a t y o u n e e d t o p a y t o r e p a ir it . I t is t h e s a m e c o n – p r i n c i p l e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 S o – s o – b u t w h y w o u ld S A AT f o r e x a m p le w a n t – w a n t a p a r t th a t is s u p p o s e d t o b e w r i t te n o ff b a c k a n d p a y f o r i t . Is i t b e c a u s e t h e – a n e w o n e m i g h t b e m o r e e x p e n s iv e ? MR HUMAN: I t w il l b e a c t u a ll y c h e a p e r t o h a v e a n e w o n e th a n t o r e p a ir i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h y w o u ld t h e y w a n t o n e th a t i s o ld a n d h a s b e e n u s e d w h e n th e y c a n g e t a n e w o n e c h e a p e r ? M R H U M A N : Ye s C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a m I m is s in g s o m e t h i n g ? M R H U M A N : N o it i s v e r y p e r ti n e n t a n d r e l e v a n t q u e s t io n s i f I c o u l d – lik e t o c l a r i fy. W h e n a c o m p o n e n t b e c o m e s b e y o n d e c o n o m ic r e p a ir i t 20 needs to be scrapped. I t w o u l d b e d e f a c e d , c u t u p in t o p i e c e s a n d d is c a r d e d . B u t t o r e p l a c e t h e u n i t in th e i n v e n t o r y o f th e p o o l y o u n e e d to contribute to buying a new one and we share the cost. S o S A AT w o u ld p a y 3 0 % t o w a r d s t h e p u r c h a s e o f a n e w o n e a n d t h e s u p p li e r 7 0 % . I t i s a m e c h a n is m – t h e s e c o m p o n e n ts a r e q u i te e x p e n s iv e . I t is n o t u n c o m m o n t o p a y R 3 o r 4 o r 5 m i ll i o n f o r a c o m p o n e n t a n d th e n th e Page 74 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 c o s t i s j u s t n o t p o s s i b l e t o b e a r f o r t h e a ir l in e . S o t h i s m e c h a n i s m i s p o s s i b le t o s h a r e th e c o s t . T h e e q u iv a l e n t o f in s u r a n c e p r e mi u m s w o u ld b e t h e f li g h t h o u r r a t e . S o i f I m a y g iv e a p r a c tic a l e x a m p l e ? A t t h e m o m e n t S A AT p a y s m o r e o r l e s s 1 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 D o ll a r s e v e r y m o n t h t o w a r d s p o s s i b l e B E R o c c u r r e n c e s . I t is li k e t h e i n s u r a n c e p o lic y. I f a c o m p o n e n t f a ils – s a y i t w a s a A d ir o – A d ir o is a c o m p o n e n t th a t is u s e d to m e a s u r e a i r s p e e d , t e m p e r a tu r e s a n d t h e i n s tr u m e n t s o n a – o n a – i t i s li n k e d t o th e i n s tr u m e n ta t io n i n t h e c o c k p i t b u t i t i s q u i t e e x p e n s iv e . 10 It c o s ts a b o v e R 5 – R 6 m il li o n t h e n S A AT w o u l d o n l y p a y 3 0 % a n d t h e s u p p li e r m u s t p a y th e r e m a in i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. Th a n k y o u . Ye s y o u w e r e s ti ll g o i n g t o fi n i s h ju s t r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d th o s e – a ll t h o s e r e q u ir e m e n ts ? MR HUMAN: T h e n e x t o n e is A D – A D ’s m a n d a t o r y. An AD is a a ir w o r t h i n e s s d ir e c t iv e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H U M A N : M a n y ti m e s m a n u f a c t u r e r s w o u ld is s u e i m p r o v e m e n t s . I t is li k e m a y b e y o u g e t a n e w v e r s io n o f M i c r o s o f t o n y o u r c o m p u t e r. I n t h is c a s e i t i s a d ir e c t iv e , i t is c o m p u l s o r y t o – to r e p l a c e . A D ’s n o n m a n d a t o r y. 20 W a r r a n t i e s . Th e s e s s io n s o f w a r r a n ti e s to r e d u c e r a t e s . C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u b u y a n e w a ir c r a f t i t c o m e s u n d e r a w a r r a n t y a n d a n y c o m p o n e n ts th a t w o u l d b e f a u l ty w il l t h e n f a l l u n d e r a w a r r a n t y c la i m . T h is c r i t e r i a is f o r t h e s u p p l i e r t o d e a l w i th t h o s e w a r r a n t ie s . It c a n b e s o m e ti m e s q u i te c o m p l ic a t e d . S u p p l ie r D e v e lo p m e n t m u s t e q u a l t o 1 0 % o f th e c o n t r a c t v a lu e a n d a p r o p o s a l n e e d s t o b e in c l u d e d . R e c i p r o c a l W o r k m u s t e q u a l to 1 0 % o f t h e c o n t r a c t v a lu e a n d m u s t Page 75 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 in c l u d e a p r o p o s a l . I t m u s t b e w i ll in g t o e n t e r i n to a p a r t n e r s h i p jo i n t v e n tu r e w i t h S A AT w h i c h is e q u a l t o 1 0 % o f th e c o n tr a c t v a l u e a n d m u s t b e a 2 4 h o u r, 3 6 0 d a y s p e r y e a r s e r v ic e . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . I f y o u c a n t h e n tu r n t o p a g e 2 0 6 4 . A n d y o u w il l s e e t h e t a b l e a t th e b o tt o m o f th a t p a g e . Yo u r e f e r t o o n e o f th e r e q u ir e m e n t s b e i n g s u p p l i e r d e v e l o p m e n t . J u s t d e s c r i b e – it is n o t n e c e s s a r y to r e a d t h e b l o c k b u t j u s t d e s c r i b e fo r u s w h a t s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t i s ? 10 MR HUMAN: S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t w o u l d b e i n i t ia t iv e s t h a t w i ll e m p o w e r lo c a l s u p p l i e r s t o b e c o m e c o m p e ti t iv e i n t h is i n d u s t r y. I t a ls o d e a ls w i t h a lo c a li s a t io n S M M E d e v e lo p m e n t , jo b c r e a ti o n s a n d i s a l ig n e d t o t h e g o v e r n m e n t ’s d e v e l o p m e n t a l o b je c t iv e s o f e m p o w e r m e n t d e s c r ib e d i n t h e B E E A c t a n d th e B B B FA A c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I a s k y o u t o j u s t r e a d th e l a s t s e n te n c e o f t h a t b l o c k i n to t h e r e c o r d ? MR HUMAN: “ A b id d e r to i n d ic a te w h a t v a l u e t h e y w o u l d p l a c e o n each area of development based on the above and w h ic h t h e y w o u l d b e i m p a c t i n g – i m p a r t in g t o th e 20 lo c a l v e n d o r. ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n l a s tl y if w e c a n g o to 2085? T h i s r e f e r s to s o m e t h i n g y o u s p o k e a b o u t e a r li e r. The NIP o b li g a ti o n . J u s t t e ll u s w h a t – w h a t a N I P o b li g a ti o n is ? M R H U M A N : A N I P o b li g a t io n w il l b e a p p l ic a b le t o a n y c o n tr a c t t h a t i s Page 76 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w o r t h m o r e t h a n 1 0 m i ll i o n U S D o ll a r s o v e r i ts t e r m . I t r e q u ir e s a g r e e m e n t w it h th e D T I a n d t h e s c o p e th e r e o f a n d th a t a t l e a s t 3 0 % o f t h a t c o n tr a c t v a l u e b e a p p l ie d t o N I P – t o o b l ig a ti o n s b a c k in t o t h e c o u n tr y. C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e r e m in d m e a b o u t w h a t N I P s t a n d s f o r a g a in ? MR HUMAN: Chairperson it is the N a t io n a l I n d u s tr i a l is a ti o n P a r t ic i p a ti o n P r o g r a m m e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . W e w il l r e t u r n t o th o s e a s p e c t s 10 w h e n w e d is c u s s t h e c o n tr a c t a n d i t s i m p l e m e n t a ti o n . B e f o r e w e g e t t o t h e e v a lu a ti o n a n d a d j u d ic a ti o n o f t h e b i d y o u h a v e d e a l t i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d w e r e t u r n … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e g o in g b a c k to t h e a ffi d a v i t ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e a r e g o i n g b a c k t o th e a ff i d a v i t , s o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J u s t r e m e m b e r t o a n n o u n c e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I w il l C h a ir s o r r y a b o u t t h a t . W e a r e b a c k i n DD22a. CHAIRPERSON: Okay and what page must I go to? 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : To p a g e 3 7 p le a s e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O f t h e a ffi d a v it . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y t h a t i s a m is t a k e i t i s 3 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 77 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u d e a l fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 3 7 o n w a r d s M r H u m a n w i t h d o c u m e n ts t h a t r e v e a l a p r o p e r ty p u r c h a s e a n d s a l a r y in c r e a s e s g r a n t e d t o M s M e m e l a . C a n y o u te ll u s a b o u t t h a t? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d w i th d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t d e m o n s tr a te s th a t A d v o c a t e M e m e l a p u r c h a s e d a p r o p e r t y i n B e d fo r d v i e w t o t h e v a l u e o f R 3 . 8 m il li o n a n d t h a t i t w a s r e g i s te r e d o n t h e 11 J u ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h ic h p a r a g r a p h a t 3 8 a r e y o u r e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A t – fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 3 7 C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . MR HUMAN: I n a d d it i o n w e h a v e d o c u m e n t a ti o n c o n fir m i n g a s a la r y in c r e a s e f o r A d v o c a te M e m e l a a p p r o v e d b y t h e S A AT A c t i n g C E O a n d C h a ir – S A AT C h a ir p e r s o n . We are not sure whether this was a p e r f o r m a n c e r e l a t e d in c r e a s e o r w h a t w o u l d h a v e tr i g g e r e d t h e in c r e a s e a t t h i s s ta g e . CHAIRPERSON: D o e s th e i n c r e a s e i n h e r s a l a r y c o in c i d e w i t h t h e c u s t o m a r y ti m e w h e n i n c r e a s e s a r e e ff e c t e d o n s t a ff r e m u n e r a t i o n a t S A AT o r is th a t s o m e th i n g y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w ? M R H U M A N : C h a i r p e r s o n i t is o u t o f c y c l e s a l a r y a d j u s t m e n t w h ic h w e 20 – w h i c h I g a t h e r e d fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t a t io n s u b m i t t e d r e f e r r e d t o i n paragraph 140. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R H U M A N : S o i t is d e f i n i t e ly – i t i s n o t t h e n o r m a l … CHAIRPERSON: Annual. M R H U M A N : A n n u a l i n c r e m e n ts . Page 78 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : O r i n c r e a s e p e r c e n ta g e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a lr i g h t . Yo u m i g h t w i s h t o r a is e y o u r v o ic e a b i t . I t h i n k it m i g h t b e g o i n g d o w n s o t h a t e v e r y b o d y c a n h e a r y o u . M R H U M A N : C e r t a i n l y C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r H u m a n th o s e f a c ts w e r e i n c lu d e d i n t h e Open Wa t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . Ar e you aware if th e Open Water in v e s t i g a t io n d is c o v e r e d t h a t J M Av i a ti o n R .5 m il li o n t o w a r d s a h o u s e 10 t h a t M s M e m e l a b o u g h t in 2 0 1 6 ? MR HUMAN: Based on the report yes. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e th e n tu r n to t h e e v a l u a t i o n a n d a d j u d ic a ti o n p r o c e s s i n t h e t e n d e r ? A n d t h a t y o u … CHAIRPERSON: T h a t la s t b i t i s t h a t i n a p a g e s o m e w h e r e e l s e i n a n o t h e r d o c u m e n t n o t i n M r H u m a n ’s a ffi d a v i t? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o C h a i r i t is n o t . In f a c t th a t w a s n o t i n t h e O p e n W a t e r in v e s t i g a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. B u t M s M e m e la h a s b e e n n o ti fi e d a b o u t it ? 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e f a c t – t h e fa c t t h a t s h e b o u g h t t h e house. CHAIRPERSON: ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I s in th e O p e n W a te r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . T h a t is s u b j e c t o f t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 79 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t I a m a s k i n g M r H u m a n is w h e t h e r h e i s aware. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h e th e r O p e n W a te r d is c o v e r e d t h a t J M Av i a ti o n p a id R 2 . 5 m il li o n t o w a r d s t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o w h a t I a m a s k i n g is w h e t h e r t h a t r e p o r t – s h e is a w a r e t h a t r e p o r t w il l b e p a r t o f w h a t w e w i ll d is c u s s h e r e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O h in d e e d C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e h a v e e n g a g e d w i th M s M e m e l a a b o u t that. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e th e n tu r n to t h e e v a l u a t i o n a n d a d j u d ic a ti o n p r o c e s s Mr H u m a n . W e p ic k th a t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 1 o n page 39. C a n y o u t a lk u s t h r o u g h w h a t – w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s o f t h e f i f th t e n d e r ? MR HUMAN: 20 W e h a v e a lr e a d y C h a ir p e r s o n in d ic a t e d t h a t t h i s t e n d e r w a s p u b lis h e d i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d c l o s e d o n – i n 2 0 1 6 – e a r ly 2 0 1 6 a ft e r it w a s r e c e i v e d a c r o s s f u n c ti o n a l s o u r c i n g t e a m c o n v e n e d a n d t h e y e m b a r k e d o n t h e e v a lu a ti o n o f t h e t e n d e r. Th e y u s e d t h e c r i te r i a t h a t w e h a v e r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r a s t h e b a s i s f o r e v a l u a ti n g c o m p li a n t b i d d e r s a n d t h e n t h e p r o c e s s t o c o n s i d e r t h e f i n a n c i a l o ff e r s . During t h is p r o c e s s C h a ir – I w o u l d j u s t li k e t o c l a r i fy t h e q u e s t i o n i s Page 80 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 s p e c i f ic a l ly a b o u t e v a lu a ti o n o r a l s o in c l u d in g th e a d ju d ic a t i o n ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n j u s t d e a l w i th t h e e v a l u a t i o n in t h e fir s t i n s ta n c e . MR HUMAN: O k a y. O k a y. T h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h is c o m m i t te e w a s a M r R o b e r t s a t t h e t i m e h e w a s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r c h a i r i n g t h i s c o m m i t te e a n d p a r t o f th e p r o c u r e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t . Th e e v a lu a ti o n s to o k p l a c e a n d b i d d e r s w e r e a s k e d fo r b e s t a n d f in a l o ff e r s . R e d u c e d b id s w e r e t h e n r e t u r n e d d u r i n g A p r i l w h e r e t h e – t h e b id d e r s i n d ic a te d r e d u c e d prices. 10 Fi n a l s u b m is s i o n s w e r e t h e n c o n s id e r e d a n d t h e c r o s s f u n c t i o n a l t e a m s ig n e d o ff u n f o r tu n a te ly i t is u n d a te d d o c u m e n t w h ic h I r e fe r t o i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 6 o f t h e a ffi d a v it . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w a s t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f t h e C F S T ? Yo u d e a l w i t h th a t a t p a r a g r a p h 4 7 – 1 4 7 . MR HUMAN: S o C h a ir p e r s o n a ft e r t h is p r o c e s s t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s t h a t L u f t h a n s a b e – t h a t L u f t h a n s a i s a p p o i n t e d fo r b o t h th e b o e i n g a n d t h e a ir b u s f l e e ts . T h e C F S T r e c o m m e n d e d th e w in n in g b id d e r o r the recommended bidder to be Lufthansa. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t in t h e process? 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d L u f t h a n s a h a d o ffe r e d t h e l o w e s t p r ic e , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: I am looking at 145. M R H U M A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e n t h e n e x t lo w e s t w a s J M / A A R C o r p o r a ti o n Page 81 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 a n d th e n F – A ir Fr a n c e , is th a t r i g h t ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n n o . Th e n e x t s te p w a s t h a t a ft e r th is r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h e c r o s s f u n c ti o n a l t e a m w a s r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e y s h o u l d a s k t h e b i d d e r s t o c o n fir m w h e t h e r t h e y a c t u a l u n d e r s to o d t h e s c o p e w e ll a n d t h e y h a d t o p r o v i d e w r i t t e n c o n fi r m a ti o n t o t h i s e ff e c t a n d s u p p ly a li s t o f th e i r c u r r e n t c u s t o m e r s b e f o r e s u b m it t in g y e t a n o t h e r b e s t a n d fi n a l o ff e r. I a m i n 4 1 – 8 . 1 C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Where are you? M R H U M A N : 1 4 8 . 1 C h a ir p e r s o n a t t h e t o p o f p a g e 0 0 4 1 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I w a s a s k i n g y o u s o m e th i n g t h a t is a t 1 4 5 . M R H U M A N : I a p o lo g is e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r M b i k i w a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h i s c o v e r e d a n d I j u s t m is s e d i t o r … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o C h a ir i t w a s n o t . CHAIRPERSON: Were you planning to come to that? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I a m g r a t e f u l f o r y o u t o – f o r g o i n g t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 M r H u m a n t h e – th e q u e s t io n is , a f t e r t h e fi n a l s u b m is s io n y o u h a v e s p o k e n … M R H U M A N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S p o k e n a b o u t t h e b e s t a n d fi n a l o ff e r process. MR HUMAN: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A f t e r th o s e b e s t a n d f i n a l o ff e r s m y Page 82 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 u n d e r s t a n d in g o f C h a i r ’s q u e s t io n is , w h a t w a s th e r a n k i n g o f t h e p r ic e s o f t h e b id d e r s ? M R H U M A N : L u f th a n s a o ff e r e d t h e l o w e s t p r i c e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d th e n ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t w a s f o l lo w e d b y J M Av i a ti o n o r J M / A A R Av i a ti o n a n d th e n A ir Fr a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O k a y y o u c a n c o n ti n u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I s e e t h a t i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e l a s t o f th e b e s t a n d f i n a l o ff e r r e q u e s t s A A R r e d u c e d i ts p r ic e b y R 4 9 m i ll io n . I s i t – is 10 it c o m m o n p r a c t ic e t o h a v e b e s t a n d fi n a l o ffe r s i n a t e n d e r p r o c e s s lik e t h is ? MR HUMAN: It is a c o m m o n p r a c tic e to n e g o ti a te o n p r ic e . J a i t is p r a c ti c e t o a s k f o r b e t t e r p r i c e q u o t a ti o n s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: S o w h e n y o u – w h e n y o u – w h e n t h a t is a s k e d i t is b a s ic a lly t o g e t th e b i d d e r s t o g iv e th e ir f i n a l , f i n a l p o s i ti o n o r p r i c e s ? M R H U M A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: B u t i t – it n e e d n o t b e p r ic e s o n ly t h e r e c o u l d b e o th e r a s p e c ts o f t h e b i d i n – t h a t t h e y p u t u p w h ic h m i g h t b e – w h ic h 20 m i g h t e n h a n c e t h e ir p r o s p e c ts ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n u s u a l ly e v a l u a ti o n c o m m i t t e e s f in is h t h e ir e v a l u a t i o n s in to t a l i ty a n d t h e n w o u l d e n t e r i n t o n e g o t ia t io n s w i t h t h e w i n n i n g b i d d e r. A n d i n t h a t p r o c e s s p r ic e b e n e fic i a l t e r m s , q u a li ty s t a n d a r d s a n d tr a i n i n g o r o t h e r b e n e fi t s w o u ld b e n e g o t ia t e d . I n b ig t e n d e r s t h a t is u s u a ll y h o w t h e p r o c e s s i s r u n . I f i t is fo ll o w i n g th is i n Page 83 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 t h is p a t t e r n . B u t t o n e g o t ia t e w it h a ll b i d d e r s i s p o s s ib l e w h e n th e r e is the so called two envelope system when – when the bidders go through a f u n c ti o n a li t y e v e r y b o d y th a t p a s s e s f u n c t io n a l it y t h e c r it ic a l c r i t e r i a then goes to the second phase. CHAIRPERSON: B u t m y – m y q u e s t io n w a s , is i t c o r r e c t t h a t w h e n a r e q u e s t i s m a d e fo r a b i d d e r ’s b e s t o ffe r t h a t i s n o t n e c e s s a r il y li m i t e d o r c o n f in e d to p r i c e ? M R H U M A N : Ye s S ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 I t c o u l d in c l u d e o t h e r t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s o r o th e r a s p e c ts t h a t t h e b id d e r t h i n k s i f t h e y m a d e s o m e a m e n d m e n ts o n t h a t c o u l d e n h a n c e t h e ir – t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f a n a g r e e m e n t. M R H U M A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t – th a t d o e s h a p p e n t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t m o s tl y i t is t h e p r ic e . MR HUMAN: I t is m o s tly p r ic e a n d th e n a f te r a w a r d a ll t h e o t h e r c o n d i ti o n s a r e n e g o ti a t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr H u m a n y o u w e r e t h e n a f t e r t e lli n g u s t h e – the d i ffe r e n t prices a ft e r the f in a l submission and the r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f t h e C F S T f o r L u ft h a n s a y o u w e r e b u s y t e l li n g u s 20 a b o u t th e m e e t in g , th e C F S T m e e ti n g o f 2 5 A p r i l w h ic h y o u d e a l w i t h a t 1 4 8 . D o y o u w a n t t o fi n is h t e ll i n g u s a b o u t th a t m e e t i n g ? MR HUMAN: Ye s . S o C h a ir p e r s o n a f t e r t h e e v a l u a t io n a n d t h e s u b m is s io n o f th e c r o s s - fu n c t io n a l te a m r e c o m m e n d i n g L u f th a n s a o n t h e 2 5 A p r i l t h e c r o s s - f u n c ti o n a l s o u r c i n g t e a m o n c e a g a i n m e t a n d b a s e d o n t h e M i n u t e s o f th is m e e ti n g i t is d i s c l o s e d th a t th e – t h a t a l l Page 84 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 s u p p li e r s w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o c o n fi r m t h a t t h e y u n d e r s t o o d t h e s c o p e c o r r e c t ly a n d p r o v i d e a li s t o f t h e ir c u r r e n t c u s t o m e r s w i th a s e c o n d b e s t a n d fi n a l o ff e r. T h e r a ti o n a l e f o r t h is d e c is io n C h a ir p e r s o n w a s t h a t th e p r i c e s w e r e r e g a r d e d a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : To o l o w ? M R H U M A N : O r q u it e l o w y e s . I n th e i n d u s tr y i t is c a ll e d l o w b a l li n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : W h e r e a b i d d e r m a y b e u n d e r q u o t e s b u t t h e n l a te r th e – t h e s e r v ic e i s c o m p r i s e d d u e to f in a n c i a l c o n s tr a i n t s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : O r p o s s i b l y a c o m p r o m is e i n q u a li ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir th is m i g h t b e a n a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e a t w h ic h to t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o n d e r w h e t h e r i t m i g h t b e c o n v e n i e n t t o fi n i s h w h a t h e h a s to s a y a b o u t th a t m e e t i n g . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : U n le s s y o u t h i n k it is g o i n g t o t a k e q u i te s o m e t i m e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o I t h i n k w e – I th in k t h a t m a k e s s e n s e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s f i n is h th a t m e e ti n g j a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : L e t u s – le t u s f i n is h t h e m e e ti n g . What e ls e h a p p e n e d a t th a t m e e t i n g ? MR HUMAN: A t t h e m e e t i n g A d v o c a t e M e m e l a a ls o j o i n e d a n d s h e e m p h a s is e d t h e u r g e n c y t o fi n a li s e t h is p r o j e c t . T h e m e e t in g to o k n o t e t h e c r o s s - f u n c ti o n a l s o u r c i n g te a m m e e t i n g to o k n o te o f t h e f e e d b a c k Page 85 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 o n p r ic i n g o f t h e t h r e e b i d d e r s t h a t b e i n g L u f t h a n s a , A ir Fr a n c e a n d A A R a n d t h e r is k s th a t w a s i d e n ti f ie d w e r e c o n s id e r e d a t th is m e e t in g . T h e m e e t i n g a ls o n o t e d t h a t a l t h o u g h L u f th a n s a i s t h e l o w e s t b id d e r t h e r e w a s s t ill o u ts t a n d i n g N I P o b l ig a ti o n s a n d th a t s h o u l d b e a c o n c e r n t o th e te a m . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w a s t h e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e m e e ti n g ? MR HUMAN: Th e c r o s s - f u n c ti o n a l team then changed i ts r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o a w a r d t h e c o n tr a c t t o A ir F r a n c e . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And just one last question. Is i t – is i t n o r m a l p r a c t ic e – y o u s a i d e a r li e r t h a t A d v o c a t e M e m e l a w a s t h e C h a ir o f t h e B i d A d ju d i c a t io n C o m m i t t e e is i t s t a n d a r d p r a c ti c e f o r t h e C h a ir o f th e B i d A d j u d i c a t io n C o m m i t te e t o c h a i r – t o a t t e n d a m e e t in g o f t h e CFST? M R H U M A N : N o i t i s n o r m a l p r a c t ic e C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I t is – w h a t i s n o t n o r m a l p r a c t ic e ? M R H U M A N : T h e p r i n c i p l e o f a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e a n d o f e v a l u a t i o n c o m m i t t e e i s s e g r e g a ti o n o f d u ti e s s o it is n o t c o m m o n t h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B A C w o u l d a t t e n d t h e p r o c e e d i n g s o f a c r o s s 20 functional team. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e – th e o n e i s h i g h e r t h a n th e o th e r ? M R H U M A N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y h a v e d i ff e r e n t f u n c ti o n s ? M R H U M A N : T h e y h a v e d i ffe r e n t fu n c t io n s a n d t h e i n te n t i s th a t th e r e s h o u l d b e c h e c k s a n d b a l a n c e s t h a t is a w a y t o k e e p e a c h o t h e r Page 86 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 accountable. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l t h e – y o u s a y h e r e A d v o c a te M e m e l a t h a t is 1 4 8 . 2 A d v o c a t e M e m e l a jo in e d t h e m e e ti n g a t th is s ta g e . Do the M i n u t e s r e f le c t t h a t – d o t h e m i n u t e s r e f l e c t t h e b a s is u p o n w h i c h s h e jo in e d – s h e j o i n e d th e m e e t i n g ? Wa s s h e in v i t e d b y a n y b o d y i n t h a t m e e ti n g ? D i d s h e c o m e o n h e r o w n ? MR HUMAN: N o C h a i r i t i s n o t c l e a r t o m e w h e t h e r s h e w a s i n v it e d . T h e m i n u t e s w e w il l h a v e to r e f e r b a c k t o t h e m i n u t e s i f y o u a l lo w i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir p e r h a p s I c a n r e f e r y o u t o th e m i n u t e s ju s t b e f o r e w e a d j o u r n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . J a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t i s i n D D 2 2 f . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A t p a g e 2 2 5 – p a g e 2 2 4 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 2 2 5 y o u s a id . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 2 2 4 5 . CHAIRPERSON: 2245 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n – 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t h i m t o r e p e a t t h e b u n d le n u m b e r ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D D 2 2 f . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u n o t h a v e th a t p a g e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 2 2 4 5 . CHAIRPERSON: 2245. Bring here. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t h i n k i t i s E . S o r r y C h a ir. S o r r y C h a ir it is Page 87 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 – i t m u s t b e D D 2 2 e . M y a p o l o g i e s f o r th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . 2 2 4 5 a n d i f y o u lo o k i n t h e m i n u te s t h r e e l i n e s d o w n in t h e t a b l e i t s a y s N M jo i n e d th e m e e ti n g . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t is th e th ir d c o lu m n , h o r i z o n ta l c o l u m n , is th a t r ig h t ? MR HUMAN: Ye s C h a ir. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th ir d r o w j a . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Memela. Ye s . S o a n d t h a t N M w o u ld r e f e r t o M s N o n ts a s a S o s h e w a s n o t a t t h e m e e t in g w h e n i t s t a r te d b u t j o i n e d i t w h e n i t w a s in p r o g r e s s . W o u l d t h a t b e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g M r H u m a n a s w e ll ? M R H U M A N : C h a ir p e r s o n in th e – th e p r e s e n t c o l u m n i t j u s t in d ic a t e s p r e s e n t . I t is u n c le a r t o m e w h e n – a t w h a t s ta g e o f th e m e e t in g t h e A d v o c a t e j o i n e d t h e m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll – w e ll i t s e e m s to m e th a t i f s h e w a s th e r e fr o m t h e b e g in n i n g t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n n o n e e d f o r t h e m t o s a y s h e jo in e d i f s h e w a s th e r e f r o m t h e b e g in n i n g . S o it m u s t b e th a t s h e jo in e d w h e n t h e m e e t in g w a s i n p r o g r e s s . Ye s . 20 M R H U M A N : Th a t w o u ld b e a fa ir c o m m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir p e r h a p s I c a n j u s t r e a d i n to t h e record. CHAIRPERSON: es. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t t h e m in u t e s r e fl e c t . Page 88 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : “ N M j o i n e d th e m e e t in g t o e m p h a s i s e th e u r g e n c y o n c o m p le t in g th is p r o j e c t a n d t o g iv e g u i d a n c e w h e r e n e c e s s a r y. S h e a l s o s t a t e d t h a t th e B o a r d w il l b e s i tt i n g t h is w e e k a n d a s u b m is s i o n n e e d s t o b e r e a d y b y Tu e s d a y [2 6 . 0 4 . 2 0 1 6 ] t o b e ta b le d a t th e B o a r d M e e ti n g . ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. W e w il l t a k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a t th is s t a g e a n d w e w ill r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t t w o . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s c o n t in u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr Human, we had just b e f o r e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t d e a l t w i t h th e C F S T M e e t i n g w h ic h r e s o l v e d t h a t S A AT s h o u l d a w a r d th e c o n tr a c t t o A ir F r a n c e a n d w e 20 s p o k e - w e w e r e s p e a k i n g a b o u t th e f a c t t h a t M s M e m e l a h a d j o in e d t h a t m e e ti n g a n d w e - w e r e fe r r e d to t h e m in u te s . C a n I a s k y o u to t a k e u s t h r o u g h w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e B A C a n d B o a r d l e v e l a ft e r t h a t C F S T r e c o m m e n d a t io n ? M R H U M A N : S o s ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e - m a y b e b e f o r e y o u d o th a t i t s e e m s o d d t o m e Page 89 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 t h a t i f th e y h a d a p r o b le m w i t h L u f t h a n s a fo r o n e r e a s o n o r a n o th e r w h ic h p r o v i d e d t h e l o w e s t p r i c e . T h e y s h o u l d s k i p t h e n e x t lo w e s t p r ic e a n d g o t o A ir Fr a n c e . Is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g y o u p i c k e d u p i n t h e m in u t e s or correspondence that explains that? MR HUMAN: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . The q u e s t io n o f l o w b a l li n g or u n r e a l is t ic a ll y l o w p r ic e h a s b e e n c i t e d a s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y i t w a s p a s s e d o v e r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. S o - s o e v e n w it h A ir - A ir F r a n c e i t w a s lo w b a ll in g t h a t w a s t h e c o n c e r n o r th e r e w a s m o r e th a n t h a t? 10 MR HUMAN: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Lufthansa. Even with Lufthansa. I a m s o r r y. Even with T h e r e a s o n w h y t h e y d i d n o t g iv e i t to L u f th a n s a w a s b e c a u s e o f l o w b a l l - b a ll in g o n l y o r b e c a u s e o f l o w b a lli n g a n d o t h e r concerns? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e - t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n w h y L u f th a n s a w a s p a s s e d o v e r w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e ir o u ts t a n d i n g N I P o b li g a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H U M A N : A s a f ir s t r e a s o n a n d t h e n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o a w a r d t o A ir Fr a n c e a s t h e m o r e e x p e n s i v e o n e w a s p u t fo r w a r d b y t h e C r o s s 20 F u n c ti o n a l S u p p o r t Te a m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o J - J - w a s i t J V o r J - J M . J M a n d … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J … CHAIRPERSON: AAR. M R H U M A N : Ye s , s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e s e e n to h a v e d o n e lo w b a ll in g ? Page 90 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 M R H U M A N : C o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e i m p lic a ti o n s o f t h a t a s y o u s a i d i s th a t i f t h e y w e r e to ta k e J M / A A R t h e r e c o u l d b e p r o b l e m s a b o u t t h e q u a l i ty o f t h e p r o d u c ts o r s e r v ic e la t e r o n a r is i n g fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t t h e p r ic e t h e y t h e y o ff e r e d w a s j u s t to o l o w. M R H U M A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld b e t h e f e a r. MR HUMAN: T h a t - t h a t s e e m s t o b e fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h e r e a s o n in g o f t h e C r o s s Fu n c t io n a l Te a m … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR HUMAN: At that stage. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr H u m a n , c a n y o u th e n t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h e - t h e B A C a n d B o a r d p r o c e s s t h a t f o ll o w e d ? M R H U M A N : C e r t a i n l y. S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d w e w ill g e t t h a t fr o m w h e r e i n t h e a ff i d a v i t ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 S o r r y C h a ir. W e a r e o n p a g e 4 1 o f th e a ffi d a v i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : H u h - u h . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w e d e a l t w i t h t h e m e e t in g in t h e s u b p a r a g r a p h s in o n e - in p a r a g r a p h 1 4 8 . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. MR HUMAN: Hm. Page 91 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r H u m a n . MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n , s o t h e C h a i r o f t h e C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l Te a m M r R o b b e r ts e p r e p a r e d a d r a f t r e c o m m e n d a t io n a n d h e r e q u e s t e d o n 2 6 A p r il A d v o c a t e M e m e la t o r e v i e w t h e s u b m i s s i o n . T h e r e a f t e r i t w a s f u r th e r p r o c e s s e d w i t h a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n a s A i r Fr a n c e a s t h e - a s t h e - to be awarded. A s u b m i s s io n was s u b m it t e d for a d j u d ic a ti o n and on 6 M a y 2 0 1 6 a s p e r p a r a g r a p h 1 - 5 - 2 o f t h e a ffi d a v i t C h a ir p e r s o n th e B A C r e s o lv e d o n a r o u n d r o b in p r o c e s s t h e - th e i n t e n t io n t o a w a r d t h is 10 t o A ir F r a n c e . D u e t o t h e v a lu e o f t h is t e n d e r a n d t h e d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n f r o m t h e B A C w a s t o t h e S A AT B o a r d f o r a f i n a l r e c o m m e n d a t io n . S o t h e r e w a s a S p e c i a l B o a r d M e e t in g C h a ir a r r a n g e d f o r 9 M a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h a t j u s t t o g o b a c k a g a i n . M r R o b b e r t s e w a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e C F S T. I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o a f t e r t h e y h a d m a d e t h e d e c is io n t h a t t h e y m a d e a t th e m e e ti n g d e a lt w i th u n d e r 1 - 4 - a t p a r a g r a p h 1 - 4 - 8 t o a w a r d t h e 20 c o n tr a c t t o A ir Fr a n c e . D i d h e th e n s e n d A ir Fr a n c e ’s s u b m is s io n to A d v o c a t e M e m e l a fo r r e v i e w o f th e s u b m is s io n ? MR HUMAN: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh; and - and would that be normal or would that h a v e b e e n b e c a u s e s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e m e e ti n g h e p ic k e d u p s o m e th i n g o r b e c a m e u n c e r t a in o f t h e ir d e c is i o n ? I s t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u c o u l d t e l l Page 92 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n ? M R H U M A N : Ye s . C h a i r fr o m t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n i t a p p e a r s i f th is w a s a q u a l i ty r e v ie w. I t w a s a - a s ta ff m e m b e r a s k in g a s u p e r i o r t o d o a q u a li ty r e v ie w o n t h e s u b m is s i o n a n d t a k e in p u t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h a t w o u l d b e n o r ma l ? MR HUMAN: Th a t I t h i n k i s f a ir ly n o r m a l to - t o g i v e g u i d a n c e a n d a d v ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . MR HUMAN: Hm. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Well we - we - with regard to guidance I remember t h a t in t h e m in u t e s o f t h e m e e ti n g o f t h e C F S T t h a t w e d e a l t w i t h b e f o r e lu n c h w h e r e t h e m i n u t e s s a y M s M e m e la jo in e d t h e m e e t i n g . It does s a y f o r g u id a n c e o r s o m e t h i n g l ik e t h a t. I f I r e m e m b e r … MR HUMAN: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I s a w s o m e t h in g l i k e th a t . M R H U M A N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o c o u ld i t b e t h a t s h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n p e r m i t te d t h e n t o e v e n c o m e i n t o a m e e ti n g to g iv e g u i d a n c e if s h e is a l lo w e d to g iv e g u i d a n c e o u ts i d e o f t h e m e e t in g ? 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M R H U M A N : C h a ir, I th i n k t h e d is ti n g u is h in g d i ffe r e n c e w o u l d b e i n a n e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s o n e a ll o w s t h e c o m m it t e e to f o ll o w t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e a n d c o n c l u d e t h e ir w o r k . T h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n w a s s ti ll fir m A ir Fr a n c e a n d t h e r e w a s a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h e d i ffe r e n c e is it is - i t is f o r a t e c h n ic a l r e v ie w o n t h e - o n t h e c o m p le t e n e s s a n d a c c u r a c y o f t h e Page 93 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 s u b m is s io n n o t t o a lt e r t h e a w a r d o r o u tc o m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Thank you. M r H u m a n , t h e r e is j u s t tw o d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u h a v e a c t u a lly r e fe r r e d t o th a t I w o u l d l ik e t o g o t o . C a n w e s t a r t w i th t h e m in u t e s o f th e B A C M e e ti n g o n - o f 6 M a y ? Yo u w i ll fi n d t h a t i n D D 2 2 E a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 . CHAIRPERSON: 2-0 …? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 . CHAIRPERSON: 2-3-0-2. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : It is b e h i n d Ta b 9 5 . S o r r y C h a ir. I h a v e - I have made an error again. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e a r e i n F. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D D 2 2 F. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e ta b n u m b e r c o r r e c t o r is … ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e ta b n u m b e r i s c o r r e c t . I t is 9 5 - Ta b 9 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 S o i f y o u s ta r t o n p a g e 2 - 2 - 9 - 9 . Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t th is d o c u m e n t is th e m in u te s o f t h e S A A B i d A d j u d ic a ti o n C o u n c il M e e ti n g h e l d o n 6 M a y a n d i f y o u t h e n g o t o 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 . M r H u m a n , c a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d 11 - p a r a g r a p h 11 . 2 i n to t h e r e c o r d ? M R H U M A N : C h a ir, th e h e a d i n g is : “ A ir c r a f t C o m p o n e n t S u p p o r t 8 0 A C h a p t e r C o v e r a g e S P 4 6 2 /1 5 . T h e B A C c o n s id e r e d th e r e q u e s t a n d Page 94 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 n o t e s S A AT i n te n t io n to a w a r d t h e t e n d e r f o r a ir c r a f t c o m p o n e n ts s u p p o r t t o - o n 8 0 A C h a p t e r C o v e r a g e f o r b o t h B o e i n g a n d A i r b u s F l e e t to A i r Fr a n c e In d u s tr ie s f o r a p e r i o d o f fiv e y e a r s a s p e r C h a p te r 2 5 o f t h e S E N P o li c y. Th e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t f o r t h e f iv e y e a r p e r io d f o r Ai r Fr a n c e I n d u s tr ie s is e s t i m a te d a t R 1 . 3 4 6 b il li o n . ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Thank you. Yo u can read the BAC Resolution. 10 MR HUMAN: “The BAC resolved to round robin the s u b m is s io n a s th e r e - a s t h e r e w a s n o s u ffi c i e n t quorum to make a decision on it.” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o w M r H u m a n , t h e - t h e fir s t s e n te n c e y o u r e a d s a id : “ T h e B A C c o n s id e r e d th e r e q u e s t t o n o t e S A AT ’s in t e n t io n t o a w a r d t h e t e n d e r … ” D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t a B A C ’s r o le is ? M R H U M A N : T h e - th e c a p tu r i n g o f th e s e n t e n c e is b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o q u o r u m a n d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o f th e B A C i f t h e r e 20 is n o t a m i n i m u m n u m b e r o f - o f m e m b e r s t h e y d o n o t h a v e t h e m a n d a te t o ta k e - m a k e a n a w a r d d e c is i o n . S o a ll t h a t t h e y c o u l d d o i n t e r m s o f t h e ir m a n d a t e w a s t o n o te a n d d e f e r it t o a r o u n d r o b in p r o c e s s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n w e t h e n g o t o th e m i n u t e s o f t h e B o a r d w h i c h c o n s i d e r e d i t o n r e fe r r a l f r o m th e B A C a n d t h a t is a t 2 - 3 - 0 - 5 ? W e l l i t s t a r ts a t 2 - 3 - 0 - 4 . Page 95 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : B a s e d o n w h a t - i s it 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - th e r e s o lu t i o n . I w o u ld e x p e c t u s to g o t o th e r o u n d r o b in r e s o l u ti o n b e f o r e g o in g t o th e m i n u t e s o f t h e B o a r d . S o t h a t w e k n o w w h a t th e o u tc o m e o f t h a t r o u n d r o b i n w a s b e f o r e w e g o t o th e B o a r d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, M s H o f m e y r h a s ju s t h e lp i n g m e t o s e e i f w e h a v e g o t - i f w e h a v e g o t t h a t r e s o l u ti o n . I a m n o t - I a m n o t s u r e th a t w e d o h a v e t h e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n o f t h e B A C ? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I f w e d o n o t it . A t l e a s t w e m u s t j u s t k n o w w h a t w h a t t h e o u tc o m e w a s . S o t h a t t h e - t h e s to r y c a n c o n n e c t p r o p e r l y, b e c a u s e t h e - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 e n d s w i th a r e s o l u ti o n t o d o a r o u n d r o b in . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Or … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, w e - w e d o n o t h a v e i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t h a v e i t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d s o w e a r e g o i n g t o h a v e to … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D o s o m e fu r t h e r i n v e s t i g a t io n s … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : To f i n d i t. CHAIRPERSON: Do you by any chance know Mr Human what happened or you do not know? MR HUMAN: C h a ir, u n f o r t u n a t e ly I d o n o t h a v e a d o c u m e n t c l o s e b y hand. Page 96 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . H u h - u h . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr Human? Can we then go to page 2-3-0-4 - T h is is t h e m in u t e s o f t h e S p e c ia l M e e ti n g o f t h e S A AT B o a r d a n d i f w e g o o v e r th e p a g e t o 2 - 3 - 0 - 5 … C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 - 3 - 0 - 4 is t h e o n e t h a t h a s g o t 9 5 w r i t te n b y h a n d o n it o r s o m e t h i n g ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 9 5 A c h a ir. Th a t i s t h e … CHAIRPERSON: 95A. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 That is the annexure n u m b e r. It c o r r e s p o n d s w it h th e b l u e Ta b 9 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J a . CHAIRPERSON: I just wish somebody could write somewhere. Not on top of the page number … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e it m a k e s i t d i ffi c u l t t o s e e i f i t is - w h a t - w h a t th e n u m b e r is - p a g e n u m b e r i s . O k a y. Al r i g h t . Yo u s a y w e g o to 2-3-0-5? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 2 - 3 - 0 - 5 . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O h . T h e s e - t h e s e a r e m i n u t e s o f … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : A m e e t in g o f t h e B o a r d o f … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O f S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : S A AT h e l d o n - i t i s 9 M a y 2 0 1 6 ? T h a t i s w h a t - ja . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. Page 97 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON: The 29th - not the 29th. 9 May 2016. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 9 M a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t h a l f p a s t e ig h t i n th e m o r n in g . Ye s . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Can I ask you Mr Human to read 4.1 of those minutes? MR HUMAN: “ T h e s u b m is s i o n w a s t a b l e d a n d c o n s i d e r e d according to the submission. Ma nagement r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e t e n d e r b e a w a r d e d t o Ai r Fr a n c e . 10 A d e c is io n o n t h e m a t t e r e n s u e d a n d t h e B o a r d m a d e t h e f o l lo w i n g c o m m e n ts . ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Can I pause you there Mr Human? Why w o u ld it s a y t h a t m a n a g e m e n t r e c o m m e n d e d ? M R H U M A N : I t w a s c u s t o m a r y t h a t t h e E x c o o f S A AT w o u l d a ls o r e v i e w a n d e n d o r s e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s . T h e r e fe r r a l t o t h e w o r d “ m a n a g e m e n t ” therefore would represent Exco. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y. C o n t in u e . MR HUMAN: “A, m a n a g e m e n t ’s r a ti o n a le for r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t A ir Fr a n c e b e a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r w a s n o t s u b s ta n ti v e c o n s i d e r i n g t h e b i d d e r s 20 r e s is t a n c e t o a l ig n i ts e l f t o S A AT ’s d e v e l o p m e n t agenda. In F u r th e r m o r e other the words b e n e fi ts s u p p ly as development. o u t li n e d by the s u b m is s io n a s a r e s u l t o f s e l e c t i n g A ir Fr a n c e w e r e n o t c o m p e l li n g e n o u g h t o p o s it i o n th e l a t t e r a s th e p r e f e r r e d b id d e r. The concerns regarding JM/AAR Page 98 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 e s p e c i a l ly m a n a g e m e n t’s v i e w t h a t t h i s b i d d e r w a s lo w b a ll in g c o u ld b e m i t ig a t e d b y r e d u c in g e a c h p a r t y ’s o b l ig a ti o n as c o n d i ti o n s t o w r i ti n g . well as R e s o lv e d : the t e r ms and t h a t th e r e q u e s t f o r a p p r o v a l o f t h e a w a r d o f t h e t e n d e r fo r th e a ir c r a f t c o m p o n e n ts s u p p o r t … ” CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y Mr H u m a n . forget where were you - you were. I a m s o r r y. Pl e a s e d o n o t Do you understand that last part u n d e r r e s u l t ? I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d i t. N o . N o t u n d e r 10 r e s o l v e d . T h e o n e w h ic h s a y s : “The concerns regarding JM (coughing - excuse me) A A R e s p e c ia lly m a n a g e m e n t ’s v ie w th a t t h is b i d d e r w a s l o w b a l li n g c o u l d b e m i ti g a t e d b y r e d u c in g e a c h p a r t y ’s o b l i g a t io n s a s w e ll a s t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s t o w r i ti n g . ” H o w w o u l d p u t ti n g - p u t t in g th o s e o b l i g a t i o n s in w r it i n g m a k e a n y d i ffe r e n t t o t h e c o n c e r n s o f lo w b a l li n g ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n , i n s u c h a n a s s is t a n c e m i ti g a ti n g r e s u l t s w o u ld b e f o r i n s t a n c e to i n c r e a s e t h e n u m b e r o f u n i ts i n t h e m a i n b a s e 20 k i t. I f o n e is w o r r ie d t h a t i t i s to - t h e p r i c e is - is b e l o w m a r k e t r a te s a n d th a t y o u w o u ld n o t g e t y o u r - y o u r c o m p o n e n t s o n t i m e . m i ti g a ti o n w o u l d b e p u t 1 0 u n it s i n s t e a d o f fi v e . A Th e n y o u a t l e a s t know you have access. T h e c o n c e r n h e r e w a s i f th e p r ic e is s o lo w d o e s t h a t n o t s u g g e s t th a t t h e c o m p a n y w o u l d n o t h a v e t h e a b il it y t o d e l iv e r t h e p a r t s Page 99 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 as and when needed. S e c o n d l y, i t is s t a n d a r d p r a c tic e t h a t o n c e a c o n tr a c t is - a te n d e r is a w a r d e d . T h e r e i s a fo r m a l c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s w h e r e t h e S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t , s t a n d a r d t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s , p r ic i n g , p e r f o r m a n c e i n d ic a t o r s a r e r e c o r d e d i n a c o n tr a c t. I t i s r e v i e w e d b y th e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t a n d o n c e t h a t p r o c e s s is c o n c l u d e d b o t h p a r t i e s s ig n . S o t h e i n t e n t io n w a s to d o c u m e n t s p e c i f ic m i ti g a ti n g m e a s u r e s a s p a r t o f t h e c o n tr a c t to a d d r e s s t h e c o n c e r n th a t b e c a u s e o f t h e l o w c o s t t h e q u a li ty a n d tu r n a r o u n d o f th e 10 s e r v ic e w o u l d n o t b e c o m p r o m i s e d . CHAIRPERSON: I a m n o t s u r e th a t y o u u n d e r s to o d m y q u e s ti o n o r m a y b e w e u n d e r s t a n d t h is p a r t d i ffe r e n tl y. Yo u h a v e t o l d m e w h a t lo w b a ll in g is a n d w h a t t h e c o n c e r n is w i t h r e g a r d t o l o w b a ll in g a n d w h a t t h e c o n c e r n s w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b o u t l o w b a ll i n g . I a m c o n c e r n e d th a t w h a t th e B o a r d is s a y i n g h e r e i n t h i s p a r t i s t h o s e c o n c e r n s w h ic h a r e y o u a r e s a y i n g i t is g o i n g to c o s t y o u R 1 0 0 , 0 0 i n y o u r b i d , b u t i n a ll p r o b a b i li ty it is g o in g t o c o s t y o u R 5 0 0 ,0 0 . S o y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e a p r o b l e m g iv i n g u s w h a t w e e x p e c t. S o y o u m i g h t e n d u p l o w e r in g th e s ta n d a r d s . G iv i n g u s l o w 20 p o o r q u a li t y o f a p r o d u c t o r s o m e t h i n g . That is the concern about lo w b a ll in g . M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w m y d i ff ic u l ty is w h e n th e B o a r d s a y s h e r e t h o s e c o n c e r n s c a n b e a d d r e s s e d o r c a n b e m i ti g a te d b y r e d u c i n g t h e o b li g a ti o n s t o w r i ti n g , b e c a u s e h o w d o e s t h a t m i t ig a t e m y c o n c e r n t h a t Page 100 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 t h is s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r is g o i n g t o e n d u p n o t p r o v i d in g q u a l i ty s e r v ic e , b e c a u s e t h e y d id n o t d o ju s tic e t o t h e m s e l v e s b y q u o ti n g to o l o w a p r i c e . D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t m y c o n c e r n is ? M R H U M A N : Ye s . Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: O r - o r d o y o u - d o y o u r e a d t h is p a r t a s m e a n i n g s o m e t h i n g o t h e r t h a n w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d i t t o m e a n ? A s I u n d e r s t a n d it . I t s e e m s t o s a y p u t t h e o b li g a t i o n s o f th e p a r t i e s in w r i t in g . W h e r e m y c o n c e r n i s n o t th a t t h e y a r e n o t - t h e o b l ig a ti o n s a r e n o t i n w r i ti n g , b e c a u s e t h e o b li g a ti o n s a r e g o i n g t o b e i n w r i t in g a n y w a y. 10 M R H U M A N : Ye s . T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e g o in g to b e i n w r i t in g . M y c o n c e r n is t h o s e o b li g a ti o n s in s o f a r a s t h e p r ic e i s s o lo w. A r e g o i n g t o p u t u s in t o a p r o b le m , b e c a u s e w h e n t h i s s u p p l ie r … MR HUMAN: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : F a c e s a p r o b l e m o f n o t b e i n g a b le to a c q u ir e A , B , C , D a t t h is t y p e o f p r i c e . T h e y a r e g o i n g t o c o m p r o m is e o n o t h e r t h i n g s a n d th e n I w i ll s u ffe r. I s - is t h a t h o w y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h is o r d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d it d i ff e r e n t ly ? M R H U M A N : I u n d e r s t a n d i t i n t h e s a m e m a n n e r C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e s a m e w a y ? M R H U M A N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H U M A N : A n d th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d is it y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t o th a t p u t ti n g th e o b li g a ti o n s i n w r i ti n g w il l n o t r e a l ly m i ti g a t e a n y t h i n g ? Page 101 of 142 What would 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 m i ti g a te i s i f y o u g o to t h e s u p p li e r a n d s a y l e t u s in c r e a s e y o u r p r ic e . T h i s t h i n g - t h i s p r ic e y o u h a v e p u t o n t h e ta b l e i s n o t g o i n g t o w o r k o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t . M R H U M A N : C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t i s c e r t a i n l y a - a c o r r e c t in t e r p r e t a ti o n . In this case … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H U M A N : Th e in t e n t w a s a li t tl e d i ff e r e n t. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H U M A N : I t w a s t o g u a r a n te e r e l ia b i li t y o f c o m p o n e n t s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H U M A N : I t w a s t o e n s u r e th a t a n y m o d i fic a ti o n s t h a t is is s u e d b y t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r s w il l b e i m p le m e n t e d . I t is to e n s u r e th a t t h e r e w i ll b e d e l iv e r y a s p e r t h e r e q u ir e d t i m e fr a m e , b e c a u s e t h e a r g u m e n t i f i t is s o c h e a p . O b v i o u s ly o n e h a s t o s o u r c e w id e a n d it m i g h t c o m p r o m is e the turnaround time. W h il e a m o r e e x p e n s iv e u n i t m i g h t b e m o r e r e a d il y a v a il a b l e . A n e w o n e fo r i n s t a n c e . S o - s o t h o s e m i ti g a ti n g - t h e B o a r d ’s r e q u e s t to d o c u m e n t f ir m ly h o w a r e y o u - h o w - h o w S A AT w o u ld e n s u r e t h a t t h e tu r n a r o u n d ti m e is n o t c o m p r o m is e d a n d 20 d o c u m e n t r o l e s a n d r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s w a s t h e B o a r d ’s v ie w o f h o w t o address the low cost. According to the evidence there was no further price a d j u s t m e n t a s p a r t o f r is k m it i g a t io n i n a n y - a n y s h a p e o r fo r m th a t I am aware of. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e w i ll m o v e a w a y f r o m t h e p o i n t ju s t n o w, b u t i t Page 102 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 ju s t s e e m s t o m e th a t i t is n o t a s u b s t a n t iv e a d d r e s s i n g o f th e concerns. I f I - i f y o u o ff e r t o g e t m e a s u i t f o r R 1 0 0 , 0 0 a n d I a m c o n c e r n e d t h a t y o u a r e n o t g o in g to g e t a q u a li ty s u i t f o r R 1 0 0 , 0 0 . H o w d o e s i t h e l p fo r m e t o s a y l e t u s w r i t e it d o w n t h a t y o u s a y y o u w i ll g e t m e a s u i t f o r R 1 0 0 ,0 0 , b e c a u s e y o u m i g h t ju s t c o m e b a c k a n d s a y I a m n o t g e t t in g i t . T h e n I a m b a c k t o s q u a r e o n e . M a y b e i t is a f t e r q u i te s o m e ti m e . T h e n I m u s t s a y. O k a y. L e t u s lo o k f o r o n e t h a t is R 5 0 0 ,0 0 , b u t w e h a v e lo s t ti m e i n th e m e a n ti m e o r I s a y le t m e l o o k f o r s o m e b o d y 10 e ls e w h o c a n - w h o k n o w s w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g , b e c a u s e I t h i n k y o u d o not know what you are doing. If you think you can get me a suit for R100,00 and the fact t h a t y o u h a v e - y o u d i d n o t g e t i t. P r o v e s it . Yo u - y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t - t h a t c o n c e p t ? T h e f a c t t h a t w e - w e w r it e i t d o w n d o e s n o t s e e m t o f o r m e - s e e m t o a d d r e s s t h e s u b s t a n tiv e c o n c e r n . MR HUMAN: I read you … CHAIRPERSON: I understand? MR HUMAN: L o w a n d c l e a r C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u w il l g e t a T- s h ir t a t m o s t f o r 1 0 0 b u c k s th e s e d a y s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . M r M b i k i w a , y o u m a y c o n t i n u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u c h a ir. I t h i n k M r H u m a n y o u w e r e in t h e m i d d l e o f r e a d i n g t h e r e s o l u ti o n . D o y o u w a n t t o j u s t c o m p le t e that? M R H U M A N : C h a ir t h e r e s o lu t io n r e a d s : “ T h e r e s o l v e a t th e r e q u e s t f o r a p p r o v a l o f t h e Page 103 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 a w a r d o f th e te n d e r f o r t h e a ir c r a f t c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t s e r v i c e s o n 8 0 A C h a p te r f o r b o t h B o e i n g a n d A ir b u s Fl e e t f o r a p e r i o d o f fi v e y e a r s t o A A R ; b , a n d is h e r e b y a p p r o v e d s u b j e c t t o t h e m i ti g a ti o n o f r is k s h i g h li g h te d i n th e s u b m is s io n . ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . M r H u m a n d o y o u th i n k t h a t t h i s … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. T h e - t h e m i ti g a t io n o f - o f t h e r is k s h i g h l ig h te d i n t h e s u b mi s s io n . I s t h a t w h a t w e h a v e j u s t b e e n t a lk i n g 10 a b o u t o r is i t s o m e t h i n g e ls e ? M R H U M A N : I t i s t h e v e r y s a m e t h i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r H u m a n , is t h is in y o u r v i e w t h e r o le t h a t a Board should be playing in a tender? MR HUMAN: Ye s . A B o a r d ’s r o l e is n o t j u s t t o r u b b e r s t a m p a s u b m is s io n . Th e B o a r d ’s r o l e is t o a p p ly t h e ir m in d i n t h r e e w a y s . H a s d u e p r o c e s s b e in g f o l lo w e d ? D o e s t h e o u t c o m e r e p r e s e n t v a l u e fo r t h e c o m p a n y a n d th ir d ly, i f t h i s is t h e b e s t o ff e r, b u t n o t id e a l w h a t s h o u ld b e d o n e to a d d r e s s t h o s e r is k s . Th a t is d e f in i te ly o n e o f t h e r o le s o f 20 the Board … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d … MR HUMAN: When it comes to procurement matters. At least. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d w h a t w o u ld a B o a r d o r d in a r ily d o when it concludes that the CFST or the BAC has erred? MR HUMAN: T h e p r o c e s s d e fi n e d i n th e Tr e a s u r y R e g u la t io n s a n d - Page 104 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 a n d l e g is l a t iv e f r a m e w o r k is th a t t h e y h a v e t o r e f e r i t b a c k to th e B A C w i t h th e ir c o n c e r n s l is t e d a n d t h e B A C w ill t h e n t a k e a d e c is i o n w h e th e r t h e y w o u l d r e f e r b a c k t o t h e Ev a l u a ti o n C o m m i t t e e o r r e a s s e s s t h e - th e t e n d e r a n d o n c e t h a t is d o n e . Th e y w o u ld r e t u r n to t h e B o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e v is e d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o i t is - i t i s u n u s u a l i n o t h e r w o r d s fo r t h e B o a r d i t s e l f to r e v e r s e a d e c i s i o n a n d - a n d a w a r d a t e n d e r t o a p a r t y n e v e r r e c o m m e n d e d b y e i th e r th e - t h e C F S T o r t h e B A C ? MR HUMAN: 10 C o r r e c t. T h e - t h e B o a r d w o u l d r e c o m m e n d b a c k to t h e B A C t o p e r f o r m a n a d ju d i c a t io n . T h e y w o u ld n o t d o i t t h e m s e lv e s . CHAIRPERSON: S o w h a t is u s u a l i s t h a t i f th e B o a r d c a n n o t s e e i t s w a y c l e a r o n c e r t a i n is s u e s . I t w o u l d r e f e r t h e m a t t e r b a c k to th e B A C a n d s a y c o n s id e r t h e s e c o n c e r n s th a t w e h a v e r a is e d a n d l e a v e it t o th e B A C h o w t o fix t h a t . Is th a t r i g h t? M R H U M A N : C o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t - i t i s u n u s u a l f o r t h e m t o g o a s t e p f u r th e r a n d s a y t h is is th e o n e w h o m u s t b e a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r ? M R H U M A N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h is i s a n a s p e c t w h ic h M s K w in a n a h a s a d d r e s s e d i n h e r R u le 3 .3 N o t ic e . S h e h a s r e s p o n d e d to s a y th a t t h e B o a r d ’s f u n c ti o n i s n o t t o r u b b e r s t a m p , b u t t o a p p ly i ts m i n d a n d s h e a ls o s a y s t h a t A ir Fr a n c e w a s m o r e e x p e n s iv e t h a n A A R a n d t h a t c o m p o n e n ts s u p p o r t w a s n o t A ir F r a n c e ’s c o r e b u s in e s s a n d s h e g o e s o n t o s a y t h a t th is w a s o n e o f t h e b e s t d e c i s i o n s t h a t t h e B o a r d m a d e Page 105 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 a t t h e t i m e . D o - d o y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e t o t h a t? MR HUMAN: I fu ll y a g r e e w i t h M s K w i n a n a t h a t th e B o a r d i s n o t ju s t t h e r e t o r u b b e r s t a m p d e c is i o n s , b u t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e e v a l u a ti o n j u s t fr o m a p r o c e s s p e r s p e c t iv e t h e B o a r d s h o u l d h a v e r e f e r r e d it b a c k t o t h e B A C to c o n s i d e r i ts c o n c e r n s a n d t o c o m e b a c k w i t h a p r o p o s a l h o w t o a d e q u a t e ly a d d r e s s it b e fo r e i t w a s s u b m i t te d to t h e B o a r d a g a i n . W h e t h e r i t w a s th e b e s t p o s s ib le d e c is io n I w o u ld n o t b e a b le t o c o m m e n t o n th a t . G iv e n t h e t i m e . m a k e p r o n o u n c e m e n ts , b u t n o . 10 I t is e a s y i n r e tr o s p e c t to - t o I th i n k t h e B o a r d m i g h t - m i g h t h a v e h a d to r e f e r i t b a c k to a d d r e s s t h e - th e c o n c e r n s r a is e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t p o s s i b le t h a t c o n s id e r a t i o n s o f u r g e n c y - i f t h e r e w a s s o m e u r g e n c y - m a y h a v e j u s t if i e d th e d e c is i o n o f t h e B o a r d n o t t o r e fe r t h e m a t te r - t h e te n d e r b a c k t o th e B A C a n d m a y - d e c i d e d t o m a k e t h e d e c is i o n i ts e l f ? W o u ld t h a t - w o u l d t h o s e k i n d s o f c o n s i d e r a ti o n s j u s ti f y t h i s k i n d o f c o n d u c t o n t h e p a r t o f th e B o a r d ? MR HUMAN: C h a i r p e r s o n I a m c o n v i n c e d th e r e w a s a c e r t a i n a m o u n t o f p r e s s u r e to c o n c l u d e t h i s m a t t e r, h o w e v e r, t h is h a s b e e n g o i n g o n f o r t h r e e y e a r s a lr e a d y, a d v e r tis i n g , c a n c e l li n g , a d v e r t is in g , c a n c e ll in g a n o t h e r w e e k w o u l d c e r t a i n l y h a v e n o t b e e n m a te r i a l i n a n y w a y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ms Memela has also responded to this a s p e c t o f y o u r e v id e n c e in s o f a r a s th e r e w a s a n i m p l ic a t i o n t h a t s h e , i m p r o p e r ly in f lu e n c e d t h e d e c i s i o n t h r o u g h h e r a tt e n d a n c e a t th e C F S T, s h e s a y s t h a t s h e ’s s i m p ly n o t t h a t b ig a f i s h a n d t h a t s h e h a s n o p o w e r t o o p p o s e t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f a n y p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n t o t h e B o a r d , d o Page 106 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t t o th a t ? MR HUMAN: In f lu e n c e i s a d i ff ic u l t t h i n g to d e f i n e in t h i s i n s t a n c e , I w o u ld a g r e e w i t h A d v o c a t e M e m e la t h a t t h e r o le o f t h e B A C i s t o d o t h e ir w o r k i n d e p e n d e n tl y a n d m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n , t h e n u a n c e s o f in fl u e n c e is v e r y d i ff ic u l t f o r m e t o p r o n o u n c e , I w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o comment on that. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u Mr H u m a n I’ d n o w li k e t o m o v e o n to th e c o n tr a c t i ts e l f t h a t w a s c o n c l u d e d p u r s u a n t t o t h is B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n a n d d o I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t ly t h a t w h i le , f o r m o s t o f y o u r 10 a ffi d a v i t y o u ’ v e r e li e d o n d o c u m e n t s i n o r d e r t o p u t t o g e t h e r th e c h r o n o lo g y a t l e a s t i n s o f a r a s t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e c o n t r a c t t o d a y, is c o n c e r n e d , a r e y o u a b le t o s p e a k w it h s o m e d e g r e e o f p e r s o n a l knowledge? MR HUMAN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u b e g in b y t e ll in g u s a b o u t t h e is s u e o f a p a y m e n t o f a n u p fr o n t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Where do we go to now? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: 20 W h ic h b u n d l e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: I n t h e a ff id a v i t it ’s B u n d l e D D 2 2 A . Okay and you say what page? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y C h a ir, p a g e 4 4 . 44. Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w e ’r e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 1 , c a n y o u te ll u s a b o u t t h e is s u e o f t h e p a y m e n t o f a n u p f r o n t d e p o s i t Mr H u m a n ? Page 107 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR HUMAN: Ye s t h e c o n tr a c t p r o v i d e s … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d , l e ts c o n n e c t th e t w o p r o p e r ly. T h e B o a r d m a k e s a r e s o lu t io n t h a t A A R m u s t b e a w a r d e d , w a s i t awarded? MR HUMAN: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n it w a s a w a r d e d . CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: And when was that? I t w a s a t th e B o a r d ’s m e e t in g d a te d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t a s e p a r a t e o n e o r t h e o n e w h e r e w e h a v e ju s t lo o k e d a t th e m i n u t e s ? 10 MR HUMAN: I t ’s th e o n e th a t w e ju s t lo o k e d a t t h e m in u t e s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w o u l d n ’ t t h a t b e s i m p ly a r e s o l u ti o n b u t s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e r e s o l u ti o n , s o m e b o d y n e e d s t o d o th e a c tu a l a w a r d in g o f t h e c o n t r a c t , is i t – w o u l d t h e r e s o l u ti o n a m o u n t t o t h e a w a r d in g – d e c is io n t o a w a r d o r w a s th e p o s i t io n t h a t t h e B o a r d m a k e s a r e s o l u t i o n t o s a y, t h is i s t h e e n ti ty w h ic h m u s t b e a w a r d e d a n d s o m e b o d y e ls e w i th in t h e c o m p a n y m u s t t h e n g iv e e ff e c t t o t h a t r e s o l u ti o n b y d o i n g t h e a c tu a l a w a r d in g ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t’s s p o t o n , t h e B o a r d a p p r o v e d t h e a w a r d a n d th e n i t ’s s t a n d a r d p r a c t ic e th a t a le t t e r o f a w a r d w o u l d b e 20 is s u e d b y t h e h e a d o f S u p p ly C h a i n , i t’s b a s i c a ll y a o n e - p a g e r in f o r m i n g th e s u c c e s s fu l b id d e r t h a t t h e y w e r e s u c c e s s f u l a n d i t w i ll t h e n e n s u e in a f o r m a l c o n tr a c t p r o c e s s w h e r e t h e c o n tr a c t is f o r m u l a t e d , r e v i e w e d b y th e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t a n d b o t h p a r ti e s s i g n w i t h a n e ff e c ti v e d a t e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a f te r t h e le t t e r a w a r d in g th e c o n tr a c t , t h e r e Page 108 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w o u ld b e n e g o ti a ti o n s t o t h e n c o n c lu d e t h e c o n tr a c t a n d t h e n th e c o n tr a c t g e ts c o n c lu d e d a n d s i g n e d a n d t h e r e a f t e r y o u g e t to t h e s t a g e o f i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e c o n tr a c t, is t h a t r i g h t ? Is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e p r o c e s s c o r r e c t? MR HUMAN: T h e c o n tr a c t w il l b e b a s e d o n th e c o n d it i o n s t h a t w e r e a d v e r t is e d t h a t b e c o m e s c o r e t o t h e c o n te n t o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d t o t h e p e r f o r m a n c e [ i n d is ti n c t ] t h e r e a f t e r. I n G o v e r n m e n t w e a r e b o u n d b y t h e s o - c a ll e d G e n e r a l C o n d i t io n s o f C o n tr a c t , i t ’s p u b li s h e d a n d r e g u l a t e d b y th e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y, i t’s b e e n r e v ie w e d fr o m ti m e t o t i m e a n d i t 10 d e a ls w i th a l l a s p e c ts fr o m S u p p li e r M a n a g e m e n t to d i s p u t e s , p a y m e n ts a n d th e c o r e c o n c e p t s i n c o n tr a c t l a w. s p e c i a lis e d e n v ir o n m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . I n t h i s c a s e it ’s a v e r y Av i a t i o n and components r e q u ir e s … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: S p e c i a l is a ti o n . MR HUMAN: S p e c i a l is a t i o n a n d t h e c o n tr a c t a r ti c u l a t e d t h o s e s p e c i a lis m s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t a m I r i g h t t o s a y, a f t e r t h e le t t e r o f t h e a w a r d , th e r e is n o w r i t te n c o n t r a c t ? MR HUMAN: 20 C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Th e ir d is c u s s i o n i s a i m e d a t s e t tl i n g t h e c o n tr a c t o r p u t t in g to g e th e r a c o n tr a c t th a t a c c o r d s w i t h t h e g e n e r a l t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s th a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t . MR HUMAN: C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: A n d w h a t e v e r e ls e m a y b e a d d e d b y t h e p a r ti e s . T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n . Page 109 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y s o l e t’s h e a r w h e n t h e l e tt e r o f t h e a w a r d w a s , w h a t d a te a n d t h e n w e m o v e fr o m t h e r e . MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n , th e l e t t e r o f a w a r d w a s i s s u e d o n t h e 1 3 t h o f M a y a n d i t ’s d o c u m e n t e d i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 5 o f t h e a ff id a v i t s u p p o r t e d by Annexure 96. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y n o , th a t ’s fi n e , t h a t ’s fi n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d C h a ir i t m a y b e a c o n v e n ie n t ti m e b e c a u s e y o u ’v e r a is e d th e is s u e o f c o n tr a c t n e g o t ia t io n s a n d s o b e f o r e w e g e t to t h e c o n tr a c t i ts e l f , w e d o h a v e a n a ffi d a v i t f r o m M r M i k e 10 K e n n y, C h a ir it ’s b e e n p r o v i s i o n a lly in c l u d e d in t h e B u n d l e a t t h is s t a g e s u b j e c t t o y o u r d ir e c t io n i n d u e c o u r s e i f i t b e c a m e c o n t e n t io u s . I t is i n Annexure 22G. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s E x h i b i t 2 2 G , w h a t p a g e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: I g u e s s i t w o u ld n ’ t – o h t h a t ’s t h e la s t B u n d l e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: ADV MICHAEL A n d t h e p a g e – i t s t a r ts a t 3 1 5 0 . T h a t’s t h e l a s t b u n d l e . W h ic h y o u s a id … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . M B I K I WA : T h e r e ’s some a d d i ti o n a l d o c u m e n ts … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a i r a n d i f y o u tu r n t o 3 1 5 4 a t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 – a n d s o r r y C h a ir j u s t t o c l a r if y, M r K e n n y w a s t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t Te c h n ic a l S a l e s a t S o u t h A fr i c a n A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l a n d at paragraph 20 he says, “ A f t e r th e B o a r d ’s d e c is i o n to a w a r d th e t e n d e r to A A R J M Page 110 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 Av i a ti o n j o i n t v e n t u r e , I w a s p a r t o f th e t e a m t h a t n e g o t ia t e d t h e c o n tr a c t w i th t h e jo i n t v e n t u r e . number of m e e ti n g s b e in g I recall there being a held d u r in g the c o n tr a c t n e g o ti a ti o n s , p r o b a b ly b e t w e e n f iv e a n d t e n m e e t in g s . I r e c a l l th a t I a t t e n d e d a ll o r a t l e a s t m o s t o f t h e m a n d t h a t M s M e m e l a w a s a ls o i n a t t e n d a n c e a t t h e m e e t in g s , s h e a n d M s M b e k i w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e l e g a l a s p e c ts d u r i n g t h e s e n e g o ti a ti o n s w i th M s M b e k i t a k in g t h e le a d o n d r a f ti n g . Ms M b e k i t o o k a n a c ti v e r o le in t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d w o u l d n o t ju s t a c c e p t w h a t A A R s a i d . 10 S h e w a s a l w a y s tr y i n g t o e n s u r e t h a t S A AT w a s p r o t e c t e d u n d e r t h e a g r e e m e n t . I r e c a ll t h a t a t o n e p o i n t A A R b e c a m e u n h a p p y a b o u t a ll t h e is s u e s s h e was r a i s i n g . A t p a r a g r a p h 2 3 , a t o n e o f th e E x c o m e e ti n g s a ft e r the to be a g r e e m e n t w i th A A R J M Av i a ti o n h a d b e e n s ig n e d I asked p r o v i d e d w it h a c o p y. M s M e m e l a t o l d m e t h a t I could not be given a c o p y o f th e fu ll c o n tr a c t a n d w o u l d o n ly is s u e w it h th is a n d a s k e d w h y I could c o n tr a c t a n d M s M e m e l a s a i d t h a t i t w a s t o p r o te c t m e . u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th a t 20 b e g i v e n a p a r t o f i t. I t o o k what she was h i g h ly unusual not be g iv e n th e w h o le I did not m e a n t a t t h e ti m e a n d I s t il l d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d c o n v e y in g , I h a v e n e v e r s e e n t h e fu ll c o n t r a c t . I t w a s for my request to see a c o n tr a c t that I was r e s p o n s i b l e fo r i m p l e m e n ti n g t o b e r e f u s e d ” . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I s e e th e – I s e e M s M b e k i – a r e fe r e n c e t o Ms M b e k i h e r e a n d th e r e ’s b e e n a r e f e r e n c e to M s M b e k i i n a n o t h e r c o n te x t b y o t h e r w i t n e s s e s a n d I w a s lo o k i n g fo r h e r n a m e t o s e e b u t i t Page 111 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 lo o k s li k e t h i s a ff id a v i t d o e s n ’ t h a v e h e r n a m e . U n d e r L a w E n f o r c e m e n t t h e r e w a s a M s M b e k i , w h o w a s a c t i n g d ir e c t o r o f I P I D a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e , s o I w a s w o n d e r i n g w h e th e r i t w a s t h e s a m e p e r s o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I d o n ’ t b e l ie v e s o C h a ir, I’v e b e e n c o n fe r r i n g w it h m y c o l le a g u e s a n d I d o n ’ t t h i n k s o . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, y e s th a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr Human do you have any comment on that? MR HUMAN: 10 N o s ir. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e th e n t u r n t o t h e c o n tr a c t it s e l f , y o u d e a l w it h it ’s c o n c lu s i o n a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 0 , c a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t ? CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s p a r a g r a p h 1 6 0 o f h is a ffi d a v it ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: O f h is a ffi d a v it o n p a g e 4 4 C h a ir. Ye s t h e c o n tr a c t w i ll b e i n t h e B u n d le t h a t w e h a v e ju s t u s e d ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: B u t f o r n o w y o u w a n t m e to lo o k a t t h e a ff i d a v i t ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: I n d e e d C h a ir, n o t G n o . Indeed. O k a y a lr ig h t . C h a ir p e r s o n a n a g r e e m e n t w a s e v e n t u a l ly r e a c h e d o n t h e c o n t e n t a f te r i t w a s n e g o ti a te d a n d i t w a s s ig n e d b y t h e t h e n A c t i n g C E O , M r P ir r i e a n d t h e P r e s id e n t o f A A R , a M r H o l m e s o n t h e s a m e d a t e , t h a t w a s 7 J u ly 2 0 1 6 . U p o n s i g n a t u r e … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: W h a t p a r a g r a p h is t h a t , I ’ m l o o k i n g fo r w h e r e Page 112 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 y o u … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. MR HUMAN: P a r a g r a p h s 1 6 0 C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: O k a y, a lr i g h t . U p o n s i g n a t u r e o f t h e c o n tr a c t i m p l e m e n ta t io n p h a s e started. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A lr i g h t , c a n I a s k – C h a ir n o w I ’d l ik e y o u p l e a s e t o g o t o t h e c o n tr a c t , i t ’s i n E x h i b i t D D 2 2 F. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 CHAIRPERSON: At page 2325. J u s t g iv e m e t h e p a g e n u m b e r a g a i n ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir t h e c o n tr a c t b e g i n s a t 2 3 1 8 b e h i n d tab 98. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y fo u n d i t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d I’ d li k e y o u t o g o t o 2 3 2 5 , w il l y o u p l e a s e r e a d t h a t c l a u s e f o r u s M r H u m a n … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: L e t’s j u s t c o n fi r m f ir s t , t h is is t h e c o n t r a c t n u m b e r 3 0 3 1 0 , i t s a y s C o m p o n e n t S u p p o r t A g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n J M Av ia t io n S A P t y L t d , i n c o n j u n c ti o n w i th A A R S u p p ly C h a in I n c o r p o r a t e d a n d S A A Te c h n i c a l L t d , w h a t is it d a t e d ? 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: W h a t i s t h e y e a r, 2 0 1 5 ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: O n p a g e 2 3 3 3 , i t ’s d a t e d 7 t h o f J u ly C h a ir. 2016. 2 0 1 6 , J a ju s t b e fo r e h e r e a d s w e j u s t n e e d to id e n ti fy it s o th a t t h e r e a d e r o f t h e tr a n s c r ip t u n d e r s t a n d s w h a t d o c u m e n t it is , yes. Page 113 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: W h a t c la u s e d i d y o u w a n t h i m to r e a d ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR HUMAN: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 4 .2 6 C h a ir o n p a g e 2 3 2 5 . C h a ir t h e c l a u s e 4 .2 6 r e a d s a s fo ll o w s , “ P r i o r to t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t d a t e J M A A R w il l in v o ic e S A AT for the deposit. S A AT w i ll p a y t h e d e p o s i t b y w a y o f a n ir r e v o c a b le s t a n d b y l e t t e r o f c r e d i t fr o m a b a n k a c c e p ta b le t o J M A A R a n d in f o r m a g r e e d b y J M A A R . T h e p a r ti e s a g r e e th a t J M A A R w il l h a v e t h e r i g h t t o s e t o ff a n y S A AT i n v o ic e s n o t 10 p a i d b y i t ’s d u e d a t e a g a i n s t d e p o s i t a n d S A AT s h a ll , w h e n n e c e s s a r y, t h r o u g h o u t th e te r m o f t h i s a g r e e m e n t r e p le n is h t h e d e p o s i t a n d m a in t a i n t h e a m o u n t i n v o i c e d b y J M A A R p r io r t o th e c o m m e n c e m e n t d a t e a n d a t t h e ti m e o f e x p ir a t io n o f t h e te r m i n a ti o n o f t h is a g r e e m e n t J M A A R w il l a r r a n g e f o r t h e r e l e a s e o f t h e d e p o s i t t o e x t e n d t h a t S A AT h a s p a i d a l l o u t s t a n d i n g in v o ic e s ” . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u , w h a t ’s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h a t c la u s e ? MR HUMAN: 20 C r e d i t a r r a n g e m e n t u s u a l ly b y l e t t e r o f c r e d i t b y a n a c c e p ta b l e b a n k m u s t b e f u r n i s h e d to g u a r a n t e e th a t i n t h e i n s ta n c e s o f non-payment JMAAR could present such credit letter to the bank to m a k e g o o d o n o u ts t a n d i n g in v o ic e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: A n d – s o r r y C h a ir. W o u l d t h a t b e a n o r m a l p r a c ti c e fo r t h e s e k i n d s o f a g r e e m e n ts ? Page 114 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR HUMAN: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And te ll u s how that clause was i m p l e m e n te d ? MR HUMAN: I n t h i s in s ta n c e a n a c t u a l c a s h p a y m e n t w a s p a id , n o t ju s t t h e l e tt e r o f c r e d i t . J M A A R i n v o ic e d S A AT f o r t h e v a l u e o f t h r e e m o n th ’s p o w e r b y t h e h o u r c o s ts a n d t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n a m o u n te d to 4 .3 8 2 m il li o n U S D o l la r s a t t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR HUMAN: S o i n r a n d s th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . J u s t o v e r R 6 0 m i ll io n m o r e o r le s s if w e a c c e p t t h e e x c h a n g e r a t e a t f o u r te e n a n d a h a l f . CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: Ye s o k a y, s o y o u s a y t h i s w a s g iv e n t o th e m i n c a s h ? C o r r e c t , c a s h m e a n i n g tr a n s f e r – a w ir e tr a n s f e r t o t h e b a n k a c c o u n t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a s o p p o s e d to g iv i n g t h e m a l e t t e r, w h ic h is t h e n o r m a l p r a c ti c e . MR HUMAN: Correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: 20 O k a y. I w a s ju s t w o r r i e d t h a t y o u w e r e i n t e r p r e t in g th is a s m a y b e s m a ll b i lls , s m a l l d e n o m i n a t i o n D o l l a r b il ls . CHAIRPERSON: [ L a u g h te r ], y e s a n d w h a t w a s s a i d t o b e t h e ju s t i fic a ti o n f o r d e p a r ti n g fr o m th e n o r m i n t h is r e g a r d i f y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e t o g a t h e r a n y j u s t i fic a ti o n f r o m t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s u n a b l e t o d e t e r m i n e fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n y l o g i c a l a r g u m e n t . To t h e c o n tr a r y, m y i n t e r p r e t a ti o n Page 115 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 is t o p a r t w i t h v a lu a b l e c a s h w o u ld c e r ta i n ly p u t a s tr a i n o n t h e c a s h fl o w, s e c o n d ly m y u n d e r s t a n d in g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: When there was no need. C o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e c o n tr a c t c e r ta in ly p r o v i d e s f o r a c c e p ta b l e m e a n s m a k i n g a c a s h p a y m e n t d o e s n o t r e a ll y m a k e a l o t o f sense. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w o u l d i t a ls o n o t p u t S A AT a t r is k i n c a s e J M A A R f a il t o p e r fo r m a n d t h e y a lr e a d y h a v e c a s h , I m e a n t h e y ’v e b e e n p a i d it ’s n o t ju s t a l e tt e r. I f th e y f a il d i s m a l ly t o p e r fo r m th e n S A AT w il l b e 10 p r e j u d ic e d . MR HUMAN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . Mr H u m a n h a v e t h e r e e v e r b e e n a n y d r a w d o w n s fr o m t h a t d e p o s it in o r d e r to o ff s e t o u ts ta n d i n g in v o ic e s ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n t o m y k n o w l e d g e th e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n a n o ff s e t a g a i n s t th e d e p o s i t f o r u n p a i d i n v o ic e s , d u r i n g t h e d u r a ti o n o f t h is c o n tr a c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 Yo u r e f e r, i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t t o a r e v i e w th a t w a s d o n e o f t h e c o n tr a c t in 2 0 1 8 . MR HUMAN: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a t ’s a t p a g e 4 5 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 6 , c a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t r e v ie w w a s a n d what it found? MR HUMAN: C e r t a i n l y, C h a ir t h e i n t e n ti o n o f t h e jo i n t c o n tr a c t r e v ie w Page 116 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w a s t o a s s e s s p e r fo r m a n c e a n d th e s e s p o k e s p e c i f ic a ll y t o m a t te r t h a t S A AT f o u n d n o t t o b e b e n e fi c i a l . T h e fir s t i n s t a n c e , i f I m a y e x p a n d a li t tl e b it o n i t, f o r g iv e m e C h a ir, I ju s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e i f i t’s n o t lis t e d , w a s t h e l o n g t u r n a r o u n d t i m e s fo r r e p a ir o f c o m p o n e n ts . We k e e p s t a ti s tic s a n d s o d o e s t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r a n d w e n o t e d t h a t s o m e r e p a ir s w e r e o u ts t a n d in g fo r lo n g e r th a n 6 0 0 d a y s . Now for a m a in t e n a n c e o r g a n is a t i o n i t ’s v ir t u a ll y u n h e a r d o f t h a t y o u w il l b e w i t h o u t a s p a r e f o r a l m o s t t w o y e a r s , 6 0 0 d a y s i s ju s t s h o r t o f t w o y e a r s . S o w e a d d r e s s e d p e r f o r m a n c e r e l a te d m a t t e r s l ik e t h i s . A t th e 10 ti m e t h e r e w a s j u s t o v e r 9 3 0 , I b e li e v e i t e m s o u ts t a n d i n g f o r e x c e s s iv e ti m e t h a t w o u l d b e fo r s i x m o n th s o r lo n g e r. Secondly incorrect in v o ic i n g , t h e c o n tr a c t p r o v id e s f o r 3 5 % o f , b e y o n d e c o n o m i c r e p a ir c o s t b u t w e ’ v e n o t e d th a t o n s e v e r a l in v o i c e s th e a m o u n t w e r e c h a r g e a t 1 0 0 % p l u s a m a r k - u p p l u s a h a n d l in g f e e a n d th e in t e n t i o n o f t h i s r e v ie w a s t o c o r r e c t t h a t , c a n c e l t h e in v o ic e s , g i v e u s a c r e d i t n o te a n d b i ll 3 5 % a s p e r t h e c o n t r a c t t e r m s . T h e n e x t is s u e t h a t w e r a is e d w a s t h e e x c e s s iv e p e n a l ti e s , S A AT h a s b e e n s lo p p y i n t h e ir a d m i n is tr a t i o n o f th is c o n tr a c t i n t h e s e n s e th a t i t h a s a d e t e r m i n e d r e t u r n d a t e a n d i f a c o r e u n i t is n o t r e t u r n e d w i th i n t h a t d a t e , a p e n a l ty is r a i s e d . U p t o 20 n o w S A AT h a s p a i d R 6 9 m i ll i o n i n p e n a l t ie s – R 6 9 .6 m i ll io n i n p e n a l t ie s f o r la t e r e t u r n o f c o r e s . O u r i n te n ti o n w a s to p o in t o u t t o J M Av i a t i o n t h a t th e s a m e k in d o f p e n a lt y d o e s n o t a p p ly w h e n c o m p o n e n t s t a k e 6 0 0 d a y s t o c o m e b a c k S A AT a n d w e w o u l d li k e to h a v e s o m e k in d o f a e q u a l is a ti o n o f t h e te r ms a n d c o n d i ti o n s . A ls o w e n o t e d t h a t th e r e h a s n o t b e e n a n y N I P o b li g a t i o n b e n e f it s , w e w a n t e d t o a d d r e s s t h e m a t t e r Page 117 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 t h a t t h e N I P c o n tr i b u ti o n n e e d s t o b e a d d r e s s e d , b e a c c e le r a t e d s in c e t h e c o n tr a c t w a s a l r e a d y h a l f w a y t h r o u g h i t ’s t e r m a n d t h e n a n o t h e r it e m s w a s t h e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Can I just pause you there Mr Human and ju s t c o n fir m t h a t t h e N I P o b li g a t i o n w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t i n t h e R F P. MR HUMAN: C o r r e c t t h e N I P o b li g a t io n w a s p e r s ta n d a r d b i d d i n g d o c u m e n t n u m b e r 5 i t ’s a s ta n d a r d p a r t o f t h e R F P p a c k . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR HUMAN: 10 T h a n k y o u , c o n ti n u e . A n d t h e n C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e r e c ip r o c a l w o r k t h a t w a s a p a r t o f t h e c r i tic a l c r i te r i a i n t h e a w a r d w a s th a t A A R w o u l d p r o v id e w o r k t o S A AT t o b e p e r f o r m e d a t i t ’s w o r k s h o p s a n d u p t o n o w n o s u c h r e c ip r o c a l w o r k h a s c o m e t o t h e f o r e . Th e s e , in s h o r t , C h a ir p e r s o n w a s t h e m a i n d is c u s s i o n p o i n ts t h a t w e t h o u g h t w a s s ti p u l a te d i n t h e c o n tr a c t a n d w e w a n t e d t h e p e r fo r m a n c e i n t h e s e a r e a s to b e addressed. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u a ls o j u s t e x p l a in th e is s u e o f B E R c o s ts ? MR HUMAN: Th e d is c r e p a n c y b e tw e e n t h e R F P w a s th a t t h e a s k w a s f o r a 3 0 / 7 0 p e r c e n t – i t w a s a d v e r t is e d in t h e b id a s t h e B E R r a t i o 20 w o u ld b e 3 0 % a n d 7 0 % , y e t i n t h is c o n tr a c t i t i s 6 5 /3 5 p e r c e n t a n d t h e is s u e t h a t w e a d d r e s s e d is th a t th e c h a r g e s t h e r e o f w e r e m a d e a t 1 0 0 % , t h is i s s u e w a s th e n a d d r e s s e d a t th i s m e e ti n g . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w a s t h a t a l s o o n e o f th e c r i ti c a l c r i t e r i a , t h e 7 0 / 3 0 r a ti o ? MR HUMAN: I t w a s a c r it ic a l c r i t e r ia t h a t t h e b id p u b l is h e d o n t h e Page 118 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 b e g in n i n g o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . CHAIRPERSON: W h o s e r e s p o n s i b il it y w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n o n S A AT ’s s id e to m a k e s u r e th a t S A AT ’s r i g h ts i n te r m s o f t h i s c o n tr a c t w e r e p r o p e r ly e n f o r c e d a g a i n s t J M / A A R ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n the c o n t r a c t i m p l e m e n t a ti o n is th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e c o n tr a c t s u n i t i n S A AT a n d th e n o n t h e p r a c ti c a l s id e , t o r e tu r n a c o r e u n i t w o u ld b e t h e b u s i n e s s u n i t , i t w o u l d b e workshops. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR HUMAN: Ye s . B u t e n fo r c i n g t h e t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s i s t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t – t h e S u p p ly C h a in u n i t . CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: S o t h a t’s t h e u n i t t h a t M s M e m e l a w a s h e a d i n g ? Ye s s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. N o w y o u s a i d t h a t w i t h r e g a r d t o p e n a l t ie s t h e c o n tr a c t m a d e p r o v is i o n f o r p e n a l ti e s t o b e a p p li e d a g a in s t S A AT w h e n th e r e w e r e d e l a y o n it ’s p a r t b u t th e c o n t r a c t d id n o t h a v e s i m i l a r p e n a l t ie s t o b e a p p li e d w h e n t h e r e w e r e d e l a y s o n th e p a r t o f J M / A A R , d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r, h a v i n g t h a t k i n d o f s i tu a ti o n w a s s o m e t h i n g q u i t e u n u s u a l t o b e a ll o w e d b y S A AT i n o t h e r c o n tr a c t s t h a t it d o e s , d o y o u 20 k n o w w h e t h e r, u s u a l ly t h e r e w o u ld b e r e c ip r o c a l p r o v i s i o n s r e la t in g t o p e n a l t ie s ? MR HUMAN: C h a i r p e r s o n I k n o w th a t fr o m m y e x p e r ie n c e a t Tr e a s u r y, t h a t t h e g e n e r a l c o n d i ti o n s o f c o n tr a c t , s p e c i fi c a ll y s p e c i f ie s p e n a l ti e s f o r p o o r d e li v e r a n d i t i s th e r e fo r e s t r a n g e t h a t t h is is a v e r y o n e - s i d e d c o n tr a c t a p p l y i n g p e n a l t ie s o n S A AT b u t n o t o n t h e o th e r s i d e . Page 119 of 142 I’m 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 u s e d t o c o n tr a c ts t h a t p r o t e c t th e in t e r e s ts o f th e p r o c u r i n g a g e n c y a n d n o t in t h is f a s h i o n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d i t s e e m s t h a t it w o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g q u it e e a s y t o p i c k u p fo r a n y b o d y t h a t w o u l d b e l o o k i n g a ft e r t h e i n t e r e s t o f S A AT. I f t h e y s e e th a t t h e r e a r e p e n a l t ie s t h a t w o u l d b e a p p lic a b l e t o S A AT i n c e r t a i n c i r c u ms t a n c e s , l o g ic a lly t h e y w o u ld t h i n k w h a t a b o u t J M / A A R w h e n t h e y h a v e d e l a y s a n d t h e r e f o r e i t ’s d i ffi c u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h e y c o u ld s e e t h e s e in r e g a r d t o S A AT b u t n o t t h i n k a b o u t e n s u r i n g t h a t th e r e w e r e s i m il a r p e n a l t ie s a g a i n s t A A R . 10 MR HUMAN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r H u m a n , w h a t , in y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a r e t h e s e r v i c e s t h a t a r e p r o v i d e d b y J M Av i a ti o n ? MR HUMAN: J M Av i a ti o n t h e p a r t n e r ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR HUMAN: Indeed. Ye s , C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is th a t J M Av i a t i o n is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e s u p p l y, d e v e l o p m e n t , c o m p o n e n t o r – t h a t w a s p a r t o f th e t e n d e r t h a t J M Av i a ti o n w o u ld h a v e a f u ll - ti m e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e o n p r e m is e t o s u p p o r t t h e d a y - t o - d a y o p e r a t io n s a n d t o e n s u r e th a t t h e 20 N I P o b li g a ti o n s a r e m e t t h a t w e r e s t ip u la t e d i n t h e c o n tr a c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR HUMAN: And to what extent has that happened? U p to n o w w e h a v e r e c e i v e d n o , li k e i n z e r o , s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t b e n e f ic ia t io n . A ls o n o a g r e e m e n t w e r e o n N I P h a s b e e n s ig n e d w i th t h e D T I a n d w e h a v e h a d z e r o r e c i p r o c a l w o r k o n t h e c o n tr a c t. A l l t h r e e o f t h o s e a r e – h a v e n o t b e e n d e l iv e r e d o n , i n a n y Page 120 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 s h a p e o r fo r m . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t ’s th e t o t a l a m o u n t t h a t S A A Te c h n i c a l h a s s p e n t s o f a r u n d e r t h is a g r e e m e n t ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir I d i d a tt a c h a n A n n e x w i th t h e e x a c t a m o u n t a n d fr o m m e m o r y I b e li e v e w e a r e j u s t a b o u t a t t h e b i ll io n r a n d – j u s t p a s t t h e b il li o n r a n d , a t t h is r a te , o v e r t h e d u r a t io n t h e c o n tr a c t w i ll p r o b a b ly e n d a t R 1 .8 b i ll i o n if I p r o j e c t th e c u r r e n t r a t e o f e x p e n d i t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t e r d a y M s S a m b o , I t h i n k , t o ld m e w h a t th e v a l u e o f th e c o n tr a c t w a s , d o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i th t h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t a s 10 y o u u n d e r s ta n d i t ? MR HUMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n t h e c o n tr a c t v a l u e i s s ti p u l a te d a t R 1 . 3 b i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON: MR HUMAN: Ye s . B u t a t t h e c u r r e n t r a t e w e w i ll e n d a t R 1 . 8 b il li o n , w e w i ll o v e r s h o o t w i t h a t l e a s t h a l f a b i lli o n . CHAIRPERSON W h a t w o u l d y o u s a y is l a r g e ly r e s p o n s i b le fo r th a t , t h a t y o u w il l g o s o f a r a b o v e w h a t l e t m e s a y i s i t . MR HUMAN C h a ir p e r s o n , l e t m e s a y t h r e e r e a s o n s . c o n tr a c t w a s s ig n e d it e x c l u d e d t h e A ir b u s 3 3 0 ’s . 20 W h e n th is S ix a ir c r a f t w a s a d d e d a b o u t a y e a r i n to t h e c o n t r a c t a s a c o n tr a c t a m e n d m e n t t h a t in c r e a s e d t h e v a l u e . S e c o n d ly, t h e f a c t t h a t S A AT h a s l o s t a l o t o f i ts c a p a b il i ty a t w o r k s h o p s a n d t h e ir n u m b e r o f r e p a ir s is in c r e a s e d . A t h i r d a s p e c t is t h e in c o r r e c t p r ic in g , a n d f o u r t h ly, t h e h a r s h p e n a l ti e s t h a t w a s i m p o s e d o n S A AT w il l c o n tr i b u t e t o t h e h a l f a b i ll io n R a n d i n c r e a s e . Page 121 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON B e a r in g in m i n d o r r e m e m b e r i n g t h e c o n c e r n s w h i c h m a n a g e m e n t h a d e x p r e s s e d a b o u t g i v i n g t h e c o n tr a c t t o J . M . & A . A . R . a n d l o o k i n g a t th e f a c t t h a t i t ’s b e e n w h a t , t w o , t h r e e , fo u r y e a r s , t w o , t h r e e y e a r s o f i m p l e m e n t a t i o n , a r e y o u a b l e to s a y w h e t h e r th o s e c o n c e r n s h a v e m a t e r i a lis e d , o r a c t u a ll y n o t h i n g s a s f a r a s th o s e concerns were concerned have worked fine? I am now talking about c o n c e r n s r e l a ti n g t o l o w b a l li n g a n d s o o n . MR HUMAN Ye s . C o m p a r e d to , C h a i r p e r s o n , n o , I c a n n o t r e a l ly c o m m e n t in a s c ie n ti f ic w a y, b u t I c a n g i v e y o u a g u t f e e l i f th a t w il l 10 s a ti s f y i n a n y w a y. CHAIRPERSON MR HUMAN Ye s . O k a y. Fo r w h a t i t is w o r t h . F o r w h a t i t is w o r t h . I f t h is c o n tr a c t w a s i m p le m e n t e d a s in t e n d e d , i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a n e x c e ll e n t c o n tr a c t s o tw o c o n s i d e r a t io n is S A AT ’s a b i li t y t o b e d is c i p l in e d . To a v o i d t h e p e n a l ti e s w o u ld h a v e b e e n b e n e fi c i a l . Th e c o n c e r n s a b o u t lo w b a ll i n g I t h i n k is v a l i d if I lo o k a t th e i n c o r r e c t c h a r g e s , a n d I h o p e it i s r e a ll y a d m i n is tr a t iv e e r r o r a n d n o t in t e n t i o n a l ly i n c o r r e c t ly i n v o ic e d . CHAIRPERSON W o u l d y o u b e a b l e , g i v e n ti m e , to g o b a c k a n d d o t h e h o m e w o r k o f s e e in g w h e t h e r th o s e c o n c e r n s h a v e m a t e r i a l is e d o r n o t 20 b e c a u s e i t m i g h t b e h e l p fu l . W o u ld t h a t b e s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u c o u l d d o , o r i s i t d i ffic u lt t o d o ? MR HUMAN N o , C h a ir. W e h a v e g o n e f a r w i t h t h a t a n a ly s is a n d I d o h a v e a c a lc u l a ti o n o f t h e B . R . d i ff e r e n c e in c o s t t h a t I c o u l d c e r t a i n ly fi n a l is e a n d s u b m i t to y o u i n th e n e x t t w o o r t h r e e d a y s to c o m p l y t o your request. Page 122 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON O k a y. I th i n k th a t w o u l d b e h e l p f u l . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. Just on the issue of c o s t , y o u s a id t h a t S A AT h a s s p e n t j u s t o v e r a b i ll io n R a n d . H o w m u c h w o u ld h a v e b e e n p a i d t o J M Av ia t io n ? MR HUMAN A c c o r d i n g t o t h e c o n tr a c t p r o v is io n s , 5 p e r c e n t o f a l l r e v e n u e w o u l d b e a c c r u i n g t o J M Av i a t i o n . 5 p e r c e n t w o u ld t h e r e f o r e b e a r o u n d R 5 3 M il li o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Thank you. C h a ir, w e h a v e a ls o r e c e iv e d a n a ff id a v i t f r o m a r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f t h e D T I a n d I w o u l d lik e t o ta k e 10 y o u t h e r e , M r H u m a n . [I n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON T h a t is D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d In d u s tr y ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA CHAIRPERSON Ye s , in d e e d . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA I t is i n f il e D D 2 2 ( g ) a n d i t s t a r ts a t P a g e 2 9 7 2 . Th e r e a r e t h r e e a s p e c ts I w o u l d li k e t o d r a w y o u r a t te n ti o n t o . [ In t e r v e n e s ] MR HUMAN S o r r y, j u s t th e p a g e n u m b e r a g a in , S ir ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA MR HUMAN 20 I t s ta r t s a t 2 9 7 2 . Thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA It is a n a ffi d a v i t fr o m M r L i o n e l O c t o b e r w h o is in e m p l o y o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y i n t h e c a p a c i ty a s d ir e c t o r g e n e r a l . I f I c a n a s k y o u to t u r n t o 2 9 7 6 , a t P a r a g r a p h 1 6 , Mr O c t o b e r s a y s t h a t S A AT h a d a d u ty t o n o t o n ly i n f o r m t h e D T I o f t h e a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n it a n d J M Av i a ti o n b u t h a d a d u ty to d o s o w i t h i n 5 w o r k i n g d a y s a f t e r a w a r d o f a c o n tr a c t . Page 123 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 T h e S A AT i n th e p r e s e n t in s t a n c e fa il e d t o a c t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th is r e q u ir e m e n t s in c e w e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A AT a n d J M Av i a ti o n w a s e n te r e d i n to i n 2 0 1 6 . D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i th your understanding? MR HUMAN T h a t is c o r r e c t , S ir. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA A n d i f w e g o t o P a r a g r a p h 1 9 , t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h s p o k e a b o u t S A AT ’s o b li g a ti o n . 19 says, “In the present in s t a n c e , d e s p i te th e f a c t th a t t h e r e w a s a d u ty o n J M Av i a ti o n t o i m m e d i a t e ly i n fo r m t h e D T I t h a t th e p a r ti c u l a r c o n tr a c t w a s a w a r d e d to 10 it , i t f a i le d t o i n fo r m t h e D T I. ” S o , d o e s th a t t o o a c c o r d w i t h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ? MR HUMAN C o r r e c t . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Th e l a s t a s p e c t I w o u l d li k e to ta k e y o u to is o n p a g e 2 9 7 7 . T h e f o l l o w i n g p a g e . P a r a g r a p h 2 7 . Th a t p a r a g r a p h r e a d s , ‘I s h o u l d a ls o p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t M r Ki r k l a n d – t h a t is th e in v e s t i g a t o r o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n – r e q u e s t e d i n f o r m a ti o n i n r e l a t i o n to L u f t h a n s a ’s p e r f o r m a n c e o f th e d u ty, o f i ts d u t ie s , fl o w i n g fr o m t h e o b li g a ti o n a g r e e m e n t w h i c h w a s e n te r e d i n to b e t w e e n th e D T I a n d Lufthansa. 20 T h i s a g r e e m e n t w a s s i g n e d o n 1 7 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 a n d is a t t a c h e d h e r e t o m a r k e d a s A n n e x u r e I . Ac c o r d in g t o t h e D T I’s n i p r e c o r d s , t h e r e is n o in d i c a t io n t h a t L u f t h a n s a i s n o n - c o m p l ia n t i n r e la t io n t o i ts c u r r e n t n i p o b li g a ti o n . I n t h is r e g a r d , I h a v e a t t a c h e d h e r e t o a p r in t o u t o f L u f t h a n s a ’s p e r f o r m a n c e s t a t u s a s a t 3 0 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 9 a n d h a v e a tt a c h e d s a m e h e r e to a s A n n e x u r e J . T h e D TI h a s n e v e r r e c e i v e d Page 124 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m S A AT i n r e l a ti o n t o L u f t h a n s a ’s n o n - c o m p li a n c e w i t h i ts c u r r e n t n ip o b l ig a ti o n . D o e s t h a t c o m e a s a s u r p r is e t o y o u ? MR HUMAN I ta k e it a s f a c t f r o m t h e d ir e c t o r g e n e r a l o f D T I. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA T h a n k y o u . Th e l a s t m a t t e r o n t h e c o n tr a c t, C h a ir, is t h a t w e h a v e m a n a g e d t o l o c a te t h e R o u n d R o b in s o l u t i o n t h a t y o u r e fe r r e d t o . I f I c o u l d b e g l e a v e to h a n d u p a c o p y a n d to h a n d o n e t o t h e w i tn e s s . [ In t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA 10 I t is t o b e i n s e r t e d i n fil e , i n e x h i b it D D 2 2 F at 2302.1. CHAIRPERSON O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA T h i s r e a d s t h a t it is a n e x c e r p t fr o m t h e R o u n d R o b i n a p p r o v a l p r o c e s s o f t h e S A A b i d a d j u d i c a t io n c o u n c il h e l d o n 6 M a y 2 0 1 6 a n d i t r e a d s t h a t t h e B A C r e s o lv e d t o n o t e S A AT ’s in t e n t io n t o a w a r d t h e t e n d e r f o r a ir c r a f t c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t s e r v i c e s o n 8 8 c h a p t e r c o v e r a g e f o r b o t h B o e i n g a n d a ir b u s f le e t to A ir Fr a n c e I n d u s tr ie s f o r a p e r i o d o f fi v e y e a r s a s p e r c h a p t e r fi v e o f th e S C M p o li c y. Th e v a lu e o f t h e c o n tr a c t [ I n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON 20 Chapter 25. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA S o r r y, a s p e r c h a p t e r 2 5 o f t h e S C M p o l ic y. T h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t f o r a f iv e - y e a r p e r io d w i t h A ir Fr a n c e I n d u s tr ie s is e s t i m a t e d a t ju s t o v e r o n e p o i n t t h r e e b i ll io n r a n d . Tr u e e x c e r p t o f th e R o u n d R o b i n . M r H u m a n , I a s k e d y o u e a r l ie r a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t th e B A C h a d d e c i d e d s i m p l y t o n o te th e i n te n ti o n t o a w a r d t h e c o n tr a c t. Page 125 of 142 Yo u r 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 r e s p o n s e t h e n w a s th a t a ll t h e y c o u l d d o w a s n o t e i t b e c a u s e th e y d i d n o t h a v e q u o r u m . T h is is t h e R o u n d R o b in r e s o l u ti o n a n d it s t il l s a y s t h a t th e y n o te t h e in t e n t i o n t o a w a r d . W h a t is y o u r v i e w o f t h a t? MR HUMAN M y v i e w is t h a t t h e ir d u t y w a s to r e c o m m e n d t h i s t o t h e b o a r d a n d n o t j u s t n o t e i t a s t h e ir fu n c t io n is t o a d j u d ic a te a n d i f i t is w i t h i n th e ir d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty, a t th e m o m e n t t h a t is f i ft y m il li o n r a n d , a n y t h in g l e s s t h a n fi f ty m i ll io n th e y c a n a w a r d . M o r e t h a n f if t y m il li o n n e e d s t o g o t o t h e n e x t s tr u c t u r e s . L e t m e f ir s t a s k , w h y i s t h a t r e s o lu t io n o n S A A le t t e r h e a d s a s o p p o s e d 10 t o S A AT ? MR HUMAN C h a ir, S A A a n d i ts s u b s id i a r i e s s h a r e a c e n tr a l B A C s o a l l t e n d e r s f o r A ir C h e fs , S A AT, a n d M a n g o , a n d S A A a r e a d j u d ic a t e d a t o n e s e r v ic e . I t is c a l le d t h e g l o b a l o r g r o u p B A C a n d it i s a n o t h e r f o r m o f o v e r s i g h t t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e r e i s a t l e a s t l i n e o f s i g h t o f w h a t i s t e n d e r e d , e v a l u a t e d a n d t h e n , f o r a d ju d i c a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON Yo u m a y o r m a y n o t b e a b l e t o c o m m e n t o n th is . I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d t h e m n e v e r t h e l e s s t o u s e S A AT l e tt e r h e a d s w h e n it ’s a t e n d e r r e l a te d to S A AT a n d u s e a n S A A le t t e r h e a d w h e n i t i s a t e n d e r r e l a te d to S A A a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . 20 MR HUMAN C h a ir p e r s o n , I b e l i e v e th e r e a s o n w h y i t i s o n a S A A le t t e r h e a d is b e c a u s e th e s e c r e t a r i a t o f t h e B A C i s b a s e d i n S A A . CHAIRPERSON Ye s , s o i t m a y b e t h a t f o r t h e m i t is n o t a b i g is s u e , b u t p r o b a b ly w h a t th e y s h o u l d b e d o i n g is u s in g l e t te r h e a d s f o r th e p a r t ic u l a r e n ti t y if t h e te n d e r r e l a t e s t o a p a r ti c u l a r e n ti ty e v e n i f t h e c o m p o s i ti o n o f t h e c o m m i t t e e is th e s a m e f o r a l l t h e d i ff e r e n t e n t i ti e s , Page 126 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 b u t f o r t h e m , m a y b e i t is n o t a b i g is s u e . B u t w e m u s t t a k e it a s t h e r e l e v a n t B A C ’s r e s o l u ti o n . MR HUMAN Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n . T h e id e n t i fic a ti o n w o u l d b e i n t h e h e a d i n g S P 4 6 2 / 1 5 w o u l d t h e n b e a b l e to a s s ig n i t t o w h i c h e n t i ty i t i s b u t y o u r a d v ic e i s s o li d a n d I w o u l d c e r ta i n ly r a is e i t w i th t h e B A C a f t e r t h e p r o c e e d in g s . CHAIRPERSON O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. I i n t e n d to m o v e o n f r o m t h e t o p ic o f t h e c o m p o n e n t s t e n d e r s n o w, C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON Ye s , t h a t is fi n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Th a n k y o u . M r H u m a n , I d o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e li ti g a ti o n t h a t a r o s e o u t o f t h is t e n d e r. I d o n o t i n t e n d t o s p e n d t i m e o n i t , b u t c a n y o u b r i e fl y te ll u s w h a t th a t l i ti g a t io n in v o lv e d ? MR HUMAN C e r ta i n ly. U p o n i s s u i n g t h e l e t te r o f t h e w a r d a n d l e t t e r o f r e g r e t t o t h e n o n - s u c c e s s fu l b i d d e r s , A ir F r a n c e , f o r m e r ly r a i s e d a li ti g a t i o n p r o c e e d i n g . I t w a s h e a r d i n t h e h ig h c o u r t o f J o h a n n e s b u r g . T h e l o n g a n d t h e s h o r t o f i t is t h a t t h e c o u r t u p h e l d t h e d e c is i o n o f th e S A AT b o a r d t o a w a r d i t t o A A R . [ In t e r v e n e s ] 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA A n d m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t t h a t w a s b r o u g h t o n a n u r g e n t b a s is a n d i t w a s f o r a n i n te r i m in t e r d i c t . MR HUMAN I t w a s f o r a n i n t e r i m i n te r d ic t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Do you know whether there was ever any fi n a l r e v ie w p r o c e e d i n g s ? MR HUMAN N o , t h e r e w a s n o f u r t h e r a c t io n t a k e n b y A ir F r a n c e in Page 127 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 f a c t A ir Fr a n c e in f o r m e d S A AT l a t e r o n t h a t t h e y h a v e n o i n te n t t o p u r s u e t h e m a t t e r fu r t h e r. CHAIRPERSON S o A ir Fr a n c e w a s a g g r i e v e d b y th e a w a r d o f t h e t e n d e r t o J M A A R a n d t o o k th e d e c is io n to a w a r d t h e t e n d e r t o J M A A R o n r e v i e w in c o u r t a n d th e o u tc o m e w a s w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t t o l d m e . MR HUMAN Ye s , C h a ir. A ir F r a n c e d i d r a i s e t h e m a t te r t o s e e k a n in t e r d ic t n o t t o c o n t in u e t h e s e r v ic e w h i le t h is p r o c e s s a r e u n f o l d i n g . CHAIRPERSON O k a y. N o , I t h in k I m a y b e m is s i n g s o m e t h i n g t h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n s a i d w h i le I w a s l o o k i n g f o r s o m e t h i n g h e r e . S o , w h a t 10 A ir Fr a n c e w a n te d t o a c h ie v e w a s a n in t e r d ic t o f th e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o r a g a in s t t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e t e n d e r i n fa v o u r o f J M A A R . I s t h a t what it was? MR HUMAN C o r r e c t , S ir. CHAIRPERSON MR HUMAN O k a y, a n d t h a t w a s d is m is s e d ? Ye s . CHAIRPERSON A n d a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s i ti o n , t h e y w a n t e d a n in t e r d ic t p e n d i n g a r e v ie w a p p lic a ti o n . MR HUMAN I n t e r i m in t e r d i c t r e v i e w r e l i e f . CHAIRPERSON 20 Ye s . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA As fa r a s w e a r e a w a r e t h e r e i s n o t ju d g e m e n t o n a f i n a l r e v i e w ? [ I n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON Ye s . T h a t’s f i n e . O f c o u r s e , i t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t t o k n o w t o g e t t h e a ff id a v i ts t h a t w e r e u s e d b y A ir F r a n c e s o o n e c a n s e e h o w m u c h in f o r m a ti o n d i d t h e y k n o w a b o u t w h a t w e n t o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA In d e e d C h a i r t h e y a r e i n c lu d e d i n t h e Page 128 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 b u n d l e . W e h a v e i n c lu d e d b o th t h e a ffi d a v it s a n d t h e j u d g e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON D i d t h e y k n o w q u it e v e r y l i tt l e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA CHAIRPERSON N o t w h a t th e c o m m is s i o n k n o w s . O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA M r H u m a n c a n w e t h e n t u r n t o th e p o r t io n o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h e r e y o u d e a l w i th t h e S w is s p o r t G r o u n d - h a n d l i n g c o n tr a c t a n d G P U s a l e , t h a t is a t p a g e 5 2 o f D D 2 2 A s t a r t in g a t P a r a g r a p h 1 7 7 . A n d b e fo r e y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h i t , I t h i n k i t w o u ld j u s t b e h e lp f u l f o r y o u t o h e l p u s w i t h s o m e c o n c e p t s . 10 What are ground- h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s ? MR HUMAN G r o u n d - h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s is t h o s e s e r v ic e s o n t h e a p r o n a t t h e a ir p o r t; p o s i ti o n i n g p o w e r u n it s , m a k i n g s u r e t h a t th e t o w i n g s e r v ic e s a r e a v a i la b le , t u g s , t h a t k i n d o f th in g ; t h e lo a d i n g a n d u n l o a d i n g o f a ir c r a f t , b a g g a g e tr a n s p o r t a t io n a n d o t h e r e q u i p m e n t l ik e s t e p s , r a m p s , t h a t k i n d o f e q u i p m e n t fa ll s u n d e r g r o u n d - h a n d li n g . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA MR HUMAN A n d w h a t a r e G P U ’s ? A G P U is a g r o u n d p o w e r u n it . A ir c r a f t n e e d s t o m a in t a i n t h e ir p o w e r s u p p ly, th a t c a n e it h e r b e d o n e t h r o u g h r u n n i n g t h e e n g i n e o f th e a ir c r a f t , w h ic h o f c o u r s e is q u it e e x p e n s i v e . J e t fu e l i s , 20 C h a ir p e r s o n , s l i g h t ly m o r e e x p e n s i v e th a n t h e n o r m a l 9 5 u n l e a d e d version that we use. And therefore, it makes sense to make use of a GPU power unit. CHAIRPERSON How does that work? c o n n e c t t o s o m e e le c tr ic i ty o r ? MR HUMAN Ye s Sir. Page 129 of 142 Th e p o w e r u n i t . Do they 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 CHAIRPERSON I f y o u d o n o t u s e t h e a ir c r a f t e n g i n e , h o w d o e s th e a ir c r a f t g e t p o w e r ? MR HUMAN S o i t is a l m o s t l ik e a m o b il e g e n e r a t o r. I t is u s u a l ly o n a c a r r i a g e o r o n a tr a i l e r. I t w o r k s w i th f u e l o r d i e s e l , a n d t h e n i t h a s g o t e l e c tr ic a l c o n n e c t i o n s th a t i s p l u g g e d i n t o t h e a ir c r a f t t o p o w e r i t . T h e r e is t w o v e r s io n s : m o b i le a n d th e n f ix e d p o w e r u n i ts o b v i o u s ly t h e y a r e li m i t e d to t h e m a in t e n a n c e b a s e , b u t t h e u n i ts w e a r e r e f e r r i n g t o here is mobile. Th e y c a n b e to w e d b e h i n d a tr a c t o r o r a v e h ic l e p o s i ti o n e d a t t h e a ir c r a f t w h e r e t h e y a r e n e e d e d . 10 CHAIRPERSON S o t h is G P U w o u l d b e , o r t h a t k in d o f g e n e r a t o r w o u ld b e u s e d w h e n t h e a ir c r a f t h a s t o u c h e d d o w n a n d i s p a r k i n g . MR HUMAN Ye s Sir. CHAIRPERSON O r w o u ld i t b e fo r t h e t i m e w h e n th e a ir c r a f t is p a r k e d ? O r m a y b e o n ly w h e n th e r e is a n e e d ; m a y b e th e e n g i n e m u s t run or whatever must run? MR HUMAN C h a ir, i t i s u s u a ll y w h e n t h e a ir c r a f t is p a r k e d . S o m e t i m e s a fo r e i g n c a r r i e r w o u ld a r r iv e i n th e m o r n in g a n d o n ly f ly o u t t e n ‘ o ’c l o c k a t n i g h t . S o , f o r a p e r i o d o f t w e lv e h o u r s i t w o u l d p r o b a b ly r e q u ir e t h e p o w e r u n i t . I n o t h e r i n s t a n c e s , s h o r t e r m a in t e n a n c e e v e n ts 20 c a n t a k e t w o o r th r e e d a y s a n d th e n t h e p o w e r u n i t w i ll b e c o n n e c te d s o t h a t t h e e n g in e s d o n o t n e e d to r u n , e s p e c i a lly i f w o r k o n th e e n g i n e it s e l f n e e d s t o b e d o n e t h e n w e w o u l d li k e to u s e a o t h e r p o w e r s o u r c e t h a n r u n n in g th e a ir c r a f ts o w n a u x i li a r y u n i t o r A P U . CHAIRPERSON B a s ic a l ly i t p r o v i d e s t h e p o w e r t h a t e n a b l e s a ll t h e e l e c tr ic i t y i n t h e p la n e t o w o r k w i t h o u t u s i n g t h e e n g i n e . Page 130 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR HUMAN T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON Ye s , o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA A n d c a n y o u t a lk u s t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s b y w h ic h th e g r o u n d - h a n d li n g c o n tr a c t c u r r e n t ly i n p la c e w a s a w a r d e d ? MR HUMAN Ye s , C h a ir t h is c o n tr a c t w a s r u n b y S A A i ts e l f , n o t b y S A AT. I t w a s p u b l is h e d i n M a y 2 0 11 a n d t h e n o n a b o a r d r e s o lu t io n o n t h e 3 1 J u l y 2 0 1 2 i t w a s d e c i d e d t h a t t h e G P U o w n e d b y S A AT w o u l d b e in c l u d e d i n th is p r o c e s s . It w a s fo r a 5 - y e a r p e r i o d fr o m 2 0 1 2 o n w a r d s and 10 Swissport was awarded th e tender for the ground-handling s e r v ic e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA MR HUMAN And when was that awarded? I t w a s a w a r d e d o n t h e 3 1 J u ly 2 0 1 2 . I a m o n P a r a g r a p h 1 7 7 C h a ir p e r s o n , o f t h e a ffi d a v it . CHAIRPERSON I s e e s o m e t h i n g h e r e th a t s a y s S w i s s p o r t w a s p a r t i a l ly a w a r d e d th e t e n d e r a t 1 7 8 . W h a t d o e s th a t m e a n ? W h a t d i d i t g e t a n d w h a t d i d i t n o t g e t? O r i s it s o m e t h i n g y o u m i g h t n o t b e f a m ili a r w i t h ? MR HUMAN I h a v e a t t a c h e d , C h a ir p e r s o n , a A n n e x u r e a n d f o r t h e m o m e n t i t e l u d e s m e w h a t w a s i n c lu d e d a n d w h a t n o t , i f y o u i n d u lg e 20 me? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA C h a ir p e r h a p s I c a n a s s is t. r e s o l u ti o n w h ic h is in f il e D D 2 2 G . I t is i n th e E ff e c t iv e ly S w is s p o r t w a s a w a r d e d r a m p - h a n d li n g , PA U a n d w h e e lc h a ir a n d d o c u m e n t v e r if ic a ti o n a n d Bi d A ir w a s a w a r d e d b u s s i n g . CHAIRPERSON O k a y. T h a n k y o u . W o u l d t h a t m e a n th a t t h e t e n d e r Page 131 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 w a s s p l it a m o n g t w o b id d e r s ? MR HUMAN C o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON O k a y. ADV M B I K I WA MICHAEL And was a c o n tr a c t concluded w it h S w is s p o r t? MR HUMAN N o t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t s i g n e d . I a m u n s u r e w h y. I a m n o t a w a r e w h y t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t s ig n e d . CHAIRPERSON B u t t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f t h e c o n tr a c t c o n ti n u e d in t h e meantime 10 MR HUMAN Ye s , c o r r e c t S ir. D e s p i t e th e fa c t t h a t t h e r e w a s n o s ig n e d c o n tr a c t , s e r v ic e s w e r e r e n d e r e d . CHAIRPERSON O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA A n d h o w m u c h w a s p a i d t o S w is s p o r t w i t h o u t a c o n tr a c t i n p l a c e ? MR HUMAN R 1 , 1 3 9 B il li o n CHAIRPERSON W h a t w a s t h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t , w e ll , o f t h e t e n d e r b e f o r e i t w a s a w a r d e d ? D o y o u k n o w t h a t? MR HUMAN C h a ir p e r s o n n o t o ff t h e c u ff. W e c a n [ I n t e r v e n e s ] A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA 20 C h a i r i t is c o n t a i n e d i n t h e s a m e r e s o l u t i o n I j u s t r e fe r r e d to . CHAIRPERSON Ye s , w h a t d o e s i t s a y ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA T h e t o ta l w a s R 1 . 4 B il li o n , b u t t h a t in c l u d e s a m o u n ts t o B id - Ai r w h i c h w a s R 8 1 M i lli o n . S o th e a m o u n t t o S w is s p o r t w a s a t o ta l o f a b o u t R 1 .3 8 B il li o n CHAIRPERSON O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Ye s . Page 132 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Mr H u m a n y o u s p o k e a b o u t S A AT a c q u ir in g G P U ’s . D i d i t a c q u ir e G P U ’s ? MR HUMAN T h a t is c o r r e c t. E i g h t P U ’s w e r e p u r c h a s e d a n d it w a s u s e d f o r o p e r a ti o n s i n S A AT d u r i n g i ts m a i n te n a n c e o p e r a ti o n s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA A n d d o y o u k n o w h o w m u c h S A AT p a i d fo r t h e G P U ’s ? MR HUMAN Ye s . W e h a v e a n a t t a c h m e n t th a t i n d ic a t e s th e p u r c h a s e v a l u e , t h e d e p r e c i a ti o n a n d t h e b o o k v a l u e . C h a ir, I w o u l d a p p r e c i a te i f t h e c o ll e a g u e s c a n ju s t r e f e r m e to t h e c o r r e c t [ In t e r v e n e s ]. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA CHAIRPERSON Have you got the page number? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA CHAIRPERSON C a n I a s k y o u t o g o to E x h i b i t D D 2 2 B ? Ye s , i t is 6 8 4 , s o r r y. Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA C a n y o u s e e w h a t th e p r ic e p e r u n i t a n d t h e t o t a l p r ic e w a s ? MR HUMAN Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n , th e p u r c h a s e o r d e r c o n ta i n e d o n th is p a g e i n d ic a te s t h a t t h e v a l u e i t w a s p u r c h a s e d a t VAT i n c lu s iv e R 9 193981.20 CHAIRPERSON 20 MR HUMAN Ye s . J u s t s h o r t o f a b o u t R 1 0 M i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON Ye s . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA N o w y o u h a v e t o ld u s a b o u t t h e p e r i o d b e t w e e n 2 0 1 2 a n d 2 0 1 6 , t e ll u s w h a t t o o k p l a c e i n 2 0 1 6 ? MR HUMAN A d e c is i o n w a s t h e n ta k e n t o s e l l t h e G P U ’s a s p a r t o f t h e g r o u n d - h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s t o S w i s s p o r t a n d t h i s r e s u l t e d i n S A AT Page 133 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 s e l li n g t h e n e w l y a c q u i r e d G P U s h o r tly t h e r e a f t e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA Yo u s p e a k in y o u r a ffi d a v i t a b o u t a c o n tr a c t b e i n g c o n c lu d e d [ I n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON A r e w e g o i n g b a c k t o th e a ff id a v i t? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA S o r r y C h a ir, t h e r e is j u s t s o m a n y f il e s t o m o v e b e t w e e n . W e a r e b a c k i n t h e a ffi d a v i t a t D D 2 2 ( a ) . CHAIRPERSON Ye s . W h a t p a g e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA We are on Page 52 at Paragraph 180 and w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e c o n c lu s i o n o f a c o n tr a c t w i th S w is s p o r t . Ar e 10 you there? MR HUMAN Ye s S ir. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA MR H U MA N So te ll u s a b o u t th a t c o n tr a c t? Th e S AA b o a r d a g r e e d to a w a r d it to Sw is s p o r t fo r 5 - y e a rs . Th e p r o c es s th a t w a s fo llo w e d I d o n o t h a v e fir s t- h a n d k n ow le d g e . Th e p a r t th a t I d o h a v e k n o w le d g e a n d d o cu me n ta r y e v id en c e is c o nc e r n ing th e s a le o f th e G PU s th a t w a s a c o n d itio n o f th is a w a r d . It p r o v id e d th a t C h a ir p e rs o n , th e Sw is s po r t w ill a r r a n g e fo r th e p u rc h a se o f th e s e G PU s a n d I h a v e tr ie d to fo r mu la te it in p a r a g r a p h 1 8 4 o f th e a ffid a v it. 20 Th e s a le to o k p la c e a t b o o k v a lu e . Th e a mo u n t th a t I h a v e me n tio n e d e a r lie r C h a ir pe r so n w a s th e p u r c h a se p r ic e o f 9 1 3 9 0 0 0 o d d p e r u n it. Af te r th e a p p r e c ia tio n th e a mo u n ts - th e u n its w e r e th e n s o ld a t th e s o - c a lled b o o k va lu e . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : So r r y. Be fo r e w e g e t th e r e . O n th e is s u e o f Sw is s p or t h a v in g c on c lu de d a - s o rr y, h a v ing p e r fo r me d s er v ice s b e tw e en 2 0 1 2 a n d 2 0 1 6 w ith o u t a c o n tr a c t a n d th e n h a v in g c o nc lu d e d a c o n tr ac t in Page 134 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 2016. D o y o u k n o w if th e r e w a s a te n d e r p r o c es s th a t p r e c e d ed th e c o n c lus io n o f th e 2 0 1 6 c o n tr ac t? MR H U MAN : I d o n o t h a v e fir s t- ha n d k no w le d g e o f a te n d e r pr oc e ss u n fo r tu n a te ly. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : O k a y. C h a ir in Ms H o fme y r ’s in tr o d u c tio n th is mo r n in g s h e r e fe rr e d to th e fa c t th a t S w is sp o r t h a d r e fe r r ed to a n a ffid a v it th e y h a d p r ev io u s ly g ive n . I w o u ld ju s t lik e to pu t th e ir e x p la n a tio n o f th is p r o ce ss . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . 10 A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : To Mr H u ma n . C H A IR PER SO N: J a . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Th e s u mma r y o f Sw is s p o r t’s p o s itio n is th a t it w a s a w a rd e d a 5 y e a r g r o u n d h a n d lin g te n d e r in 2 0 1 2 b u t n o c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c lud e d . Sw is s p o r t s tr u g g le d w ith So u th Afr ic a n Air w a y s to g e t a c o n tr ac t s ig n e d d u r in g th e p e r io d fr o m 2 0 12 a n d in th e in te r im p r o v id e d s e rv ic es o n a mo n th to mo n th b a s is . Th e y d id s o w ith o u t a s ig n e d c o n tr ac t. By D e c e mbe r 2 01 5 th e 2 0 12 te n d e r ha d th e r e fo r e s till n o t b e e n imp le me n te d . A c o n tr a c t w a s th e n e v e n tu a lly c o n c lu d e d ... ( in te r v e n e s) 20 C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o r r y, d o th e y s a y th e c o n tr a c t h a s s till n o t b e e n s ig n e d b ec a us e o th e r w is e th e y w e re imp le me n tin g it w ith o u t a c o n tr a c t. Is it n o t s o ? A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : In d e e d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . So , th e c o n tr a c t h ad n o t b e e n s ig n e d by th e e n d of 2015. Page 135 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : By th e e n d o f 2 0 1 5 . C H A IR PER SO N: J a o k a y. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Th e y th e n s a y th a t a c o n tr a c t w a s e ve n tu a lly c o n c lud e d in Ma r c h o f 2 0 1 6 fo r 5 y e a rs fr o m 2 0 1 6 to 2 0 2 1 w h ic h Sw is s p or t s a ys w a s r ou te d in th e 2 0 1 2 te n d e r. C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t is v e ry s tr an g e is it n o t? Th e b id s w er e in v ite d in 2 0 1 2 o r 2 0 11 o r w h a te v er time a n d th e te nde r w as a wa r d ed to Sw iss p o r t. N o c o n tr ac t w a s s ig n e d b u t th e y r e n d e re d s e r v ice s a n d w e re p a id a s if th e r e w a s a c o n tr ac t. An d th e n in 2 0 1 6 a c o n tr ac t w a s s ig n e d w ith o u t a 10 n e w te n d e r a n d it w a s s ig n e d o n th e b a s is th a t i t w a s th e c o n tr a c t w h ic h s h o u ld h av e b e e n s ig n e d in 2 0 1 2 . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : C h a ir ... ( in te r v en e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t i t w a s p r o v id in g fo r a fu r th e r 5 y e ar s . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Fo r a fu r th e r 5 y e a r s . C H A IR PER SO N: Is my u n d e r s ta n d ing c o rr ec t Mr H u ma n ? MR H U MA N: I w is h I c o u ld s a y o th e r w is e bu t y e s , it is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: J a . An d w h a t w a s th e v a lu e o f th is 2 0 1 6 c o n tr a c t n o w c o mp a re d to th e 2 0 1 2 te n d e r ? Mr H u ma n , d o y o u - is th a t in fo r ma tio n y o u h a v e a t h a n d ? Ev e n if it is a n e s tima te o r n o t r e a lly. 20 A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : C h a ir th is is c o min g in th e e v id e n c e to fo llo w. C H A IR PER SO N: O h , it is c o min g th e r e . O h o k a y. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Bu t it is in th e r e g io n o f 1 .2 b illio n r a n d . C H A IR PER SO N: So , th e y w o u ld e n d u p g e ttin g 1 , s o me th in g b illio n time s 2? MR H U MA N: C o r r ec t s ir. Page 136 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. Alr ig h t. Ye s Mr Mb i k iw a . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : C a n y o u - a n d I a m n o w b a c k a t y o u r a ffid a v it o n p a g e 5 3 w h e r e a t p a r a g r ap h 1 8 2 y o u d es c r ibe th e c la u s e s in th e 2 0 1 6 c o n tr ac t r e la te d to G PU s . J u s t e x p la in o r r ea d th o s e c la us e s fo r u s . MR H U MA N: C e r ta in ly. C h a ir it w a s r ec o rd e d th a t th e b o a r d r e s o lu tio n h a d th e fo llo w in g r e s o lv e d r es o lu tio n . Sw is s p or t SA to a c q u ir e a ll G PU eq u ip me nt th a t h a s b e e n p ur c h as e d by SAAT a n d , Sw is s p or t SA to e n te r in to a c o n tra c t w ith a BEE c o mp a n y th a t h a s 10 r e p r es e n ta tio n o f b la c k w o me n , y o u th , milita r y v e te r a ns a n d d is a b le d p e r s on s fr o m w h ich Sw iss p o r t w ill pu r ch a s e a ll th e e q u ip me n t r eq u ir e d for SAA c o n tr a c t. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d w h o w e re th e G PU s s o ld to ? MR H U MA N: Th is G PU s w a s s o ld to J M Av ia tio n . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d fo r w h a t p r ic e w e r e th e y s o ld to J M Av ia tio n ? MR H U MA N: I w o u ld lik e to q u o te th e c o r re c t a mo u n t b u t C h a ir p er s o n ... ( in te r v en e s) A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : 20 I c a n tak e y o u to th e Ex h ib it. It is Ex h ib it DD22B at page 844. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Ar e y o u th e r e Mr H u ma n ? MR H U MA N: N o . So , p a g e n u mb e r ? A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : 8 4 4 in D D 2 2 B. MR H U MA N: Ap o lo g ie s C ha ir. C h a ir pe r so n th e in v o ic e fo r th e G PU s Page 137 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 a mo u n te d to 2 4 8 0 0 0 p e r u n it a n d th e to ta l w a s 3 ,3 9 2 6 4 0 r an d . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d d o y o u k n o w w h a t th e b o o k v a lu e w a s a t th e time ? MR H U MA N: I d o . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d I c a n r e fe r y o u in th e s a me file to p a g e 694. MR H U MA N: C h a ir th e b o o k va lu e a t th e ti me o f s a le w a s 7 ,9 6 8 11 7 . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : So th a t is mo r e t h a n d o u b le th e p r ic e fo r w h ic h it w a s s o ld ? 10 MR H U MA N: Th a t is c o r r e c t. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d c a n y o u te ll me w h a t .. . ( in te r v e n e s) C H A IR PER SO N: J us t h a n g o n o n e se c on d . So Sw is s p or t- th e b u ye r h er e w a s J M Av ia tio n . MR H U MA N: Th a t is r ig h t s ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d th e s e lle r wa s Sw issp o r t? W h o w as th e s e ller n o w o f th e G PU s ? MR H U MA N: SAAT s o ld th e s e G PU s to J M Av ia tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: Sw is s p o r t s o ld th e m. MR H U MA N: N o , SAAT. 20 C H A IR PER SO N: SAAT. MR H U MA N: To J M Av ia tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: It’s b e e n . .. ( in te r v e n es ) MR H U MA N: An d th e n Sw is s p o r t b o u gh t th e m fr o m J M Av ia tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: An d Sw is s p o r t b o u g h t th e m fo r mo r e th a n d o u b le , a lmo s t mo r e th a n d o u b le th e p r ic e th a t ... ( in te r v e n es ) Page 138 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR H U MA N: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t J M Av ia tio n h a d b o u g h t th e m fr o m SA AT. MR H U MA N: Ye s . C h a ir p e r so n if I ma y, S AAT b o u g h t th e s e u n its fo r 9 ,1 millio n . Av ia tio n . 000. Sh o r tly th e r e a fte r it s e lls th es e ve r y un its fo r 3 ,3 9 2 0 0 0 to J M I t is a c tu a lly w o r th a c c o rd in g to o u r fin a n c ia l r e c o r ds 7 ,9 6 8 Th is tr a n s a c tio n is d e mo n s tr a tin g th a t w e h a v e s o ld fo r n e x t to n o th in g a u n it th a t w a s mo r e o r le s s w o r th do u b le . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MR H U MA N: Th e r e a fte r J M Av ia tio n s e lls th e s e u n its to Sw is s p or t. 10 C H A IR PER SO N: To Sw is s p o r t fo r mo r e th an - a lmo s t mo r e th a n d o ub le o f w h a t th e y p a id to SAAT. Is th a t r ig h t? Ye s . Yo u a g r e e Mr H u ma n ? I ju s t w a n t to ma k e s u r e th a t y o u MR H U MA N: C h a ir p er s on ... ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Be c a u s e y o u a r e th e w it n e s s . Is th a t c o r r ec t? Is my u n d e rs ta n d in g c or r ec t? SAAT . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) MR H U MA N: I d o n o t h a v e a d o c u me n t w h at Sw is s p o r t h a s p a id to J M. C H A IR PER SO N: J M y e s . MR H U MAN : Bu t in th e fo r en s ic r e p or t th a t is a tta c h e d as An n e x th e re is r e fe r e nc e ma d e to th e s a le . 20 C H A IR PER SO N: So , fr o m th a t r e p o r t it lo o k s lik e Sw is s po r t p a id mo r e , mu c h mo r e fo r th e m th a n - p a id to J M mu c h mo r e fo r th e s a me th in g th a t J M p a id to SA AT. MR H U MA N: Ye s C h a ir p e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a lr ig h t. MR H U MA N : So , my e v id e n c e is b a s ed o n th e c o n te n d o f th e fo r e n s ic Page 139 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 r e p o r t. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MR H U MA N: An d th e le a r n e d c o lle a g u e c o uld ma y b e ju s t p o in t u s to w h a t th e a mo u n t th e n p a id b y Sw is s p o r t. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : In d e e d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . It lo o k s lik e h e h a s go t it r e a d y. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA: Ch a ir th e a moun t is 9 ,4 millio n th a t w a s p a id b y Sw is s po r t. Bu t th is is e v id e n c e th a t Ms H o fme y r is g o in g to . .. ( in te r v en e s) 10 C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t w ill b e le d ja . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : L e a d o v er th e n e x t c o u p le o f d a y s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . N o , th a t is f in e b u t it is g o o d ju s t to c o n n e c t th e s to r y p ro p e r ly. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : In d e e d C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: So , th e q u e s tio n w o u ld b e w h a t w a s go in g o n w ith SAAT, o n e , s e llin g th e u n its in th e fir s t p la c e ? An d s e c o n d ly, s e llin g th e m a t a lmo s t w h a t, h a lf th e p r ic e . Am I r ig h t? O r e v e n lo w er th a n th a t to J M. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : L e ss th a n h a lf to J M. C H A IR PER SO N: 20 L e s s th a n h a lf to J M a n d s e llin g th e u n its w h e n th e y w e r e s till q u ite n e w a s w e ll. An d I th in k th a t is w h a t Mr H u ma n s a id . An d th e n la te r o n th e y le a s e th e m fr o m Sw is s p o rt. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : In d e e d . C H A IR PER SO N: J a . An d in te r ms o f th e d o c u me n ta tio n th a t y o u h av e c o me a c ro ss y o u co u ld n o t fin d a n y th in g th at ju s tifie s th is me r r y - g o -r o u nd th a t w a s g o in g o n . Page 140 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 MR H U MAN : To th e c o n tr a r y Ch a ir p er s on afte r th e s a le SAAT h a s to d a te p a id 8 ,4 2 millio n r an d in le as in g fe es fo r th e s e v e ry sa me u n its th a t w e o w n e d a n d n ow le a s e b ac k . C H A IR PER SO N: N o w a n d a r e y o u a b le to s a y w h a t th e - w h a t SAAT lo s s h a s b e e n w h e n y ou lo o k a t th a t p lu s th e fa c t th a t th e y s o ld th e s a me u n its to J M fo r le s s th a n h a lf . Ar e y o u a b le to s a y w h a t th e lo s s is w h e n y o u ta k e a ll o f th o s e in to a c c o u n t? MR H U MAN : Ye s , C h a ir p er s on th e c a p ita l lo s s fr o m th e o r ig ina l p u rc h as e p r ic e to s e llin g p r ic e w as ju s t o v e r 6 millio n a n d th e s u b s e q u e n t lo ss d u e 10 to u n n e c e ss a ry e x pe n d itu r e wa s a fu r th e r 8 ,4 millio n in le a s in g c o s t. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MR H U MA N : Th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n p re ve n te d if w e ju s t r e ta in e d th e a s s e ts . So to ta l lo s s w o u ld b e 1 4 ,5 millio n o r th e r e a b ou t. C H A IR PER SO N: Sh o e . I ta k e it th e r e w ill b e e v id e n c e a s to w h o w e r e th e p e o p le r e s po n s ib le fo r a ll th e s e d ec is io ns ja . O k a y a lr ig h t. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : O n th e is s u e o f th e le a s in g b a c k Mr H u ma n , th e fa c t th a t th e y h a v e b e e n le a s e d b a c k a t th is c o s t, w h a t d o e s th a t s a y a b o u t th e d e c is io n to s e ll th e m? MR H U MA N: It is a n ir r a tio n a l d e c is io n to s e ll th e m C h a ir p e r so n . 20 A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d i t s u g g e s ts th a t SAAT s till n e e d s th o s e G PU s ? MR H U MA N: Ab s o lu te ly. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : C h a ir pe r so n th a t ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t w e ll ma y b e Ms H o fme y r w ill r e me mb e r. D id I n o t o r ma y b e y ou w e r e no t in v o lv ed . D id I n o t h e a r e v id en c e a lon g th e s a me Page 141 of 142 06 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 208 ty p e o f th in g w h e n Mr N e n e w a s g iv in g e v id e nc e w ith r eg a r d to SAA a b o u t, I th in k a ir b u s e s a n d th a t th e r e w a s a n id e a th a t th e y mu s t b e s o ld a n d th e n le a s e d b ac k ? Bu t a n y w ay. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : C h a ir it is b e fo r e my time b u t Ms H o fme y r is n o d d in g . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a lr ig h t. Th a n k y o u . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : C h a ir th a t c o n c lu d es my q u es tio n s fo r Mr H u ma n . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o k a y. Mr H u ma n , th a n k y o u v e ry mu c h fo r c o min g 10 to g iv e e v id e n ce . We w ill ca ll y o u b a ck if a n e e d ar is es b u t th a nk yo u v e ry mu c h a n d y ou a r e e xc u se d . MR H U MA N: Th a n k y o u C ha ir p er s on . C H A IR PER SO N: Th a n k y o u . We a r e g o in g to th e n a d jo u r n . To mo r r o w th e p la n is th a t Ms Me me la is s u p p o s ed to b e h e r e . Is i t ju s t h e r o r th e r e is a n o th e r w itn e ss ? A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : It is ju s t h e r C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: J u s t h e r y es . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Th e d a y h a s b e en s e t a s id e fo r h e r. C H A IR PER SO N: 20 O k ay. A t th is s ta g e y o u a r e n o t a w a re o f a n y d e v e lo p men ts th a t mig h t e x is t w ith r e g a r d to h e r in te n tio n s ? A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : We h a v e r ec e ived n o th in g C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: J a o k a y. Alr ig h t, w e w ill a d jo u r n fo r th e d a y a n d to mo r r o w w e w ill s ta r t a t 1 0 o ’c lo ck . We a d jo u r n . R EG ISTR A R : All r is e . IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S TO 7 FEB R U A RY 2 0 20 Page 142 of 142