C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

6 SEPTEMBER 2019

D AY 1 5 8

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 6 SEPT EMB ER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Ms N o r m a n . G o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I a m r e a d y. T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .
M r C h a ir m a n w e h a v e p la c e d b e f o r e y o u th e fi le s m a r k e d C C 2 0 a n d
C C 2 4 a n d t h is m o r n i n g w e w o u l d tu r n t o E X H I B I T C C 2 4 a n d I h a v e
10

a s k e d th e R e g is tr a r t o p l a c e b e f o r e y o u C h a ir t h e s t a te m e n t o f
D r Fh a t u w a n i L a s tb o r n M u t u v h i .
CHAIRPERSON: Doctor?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D r F h a t u w a n i L a s tb o r n M u tu v h i .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

O k a y.

No I did not hear you say the

surname. So …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The surname. Oh, I beg your pardon yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I w a s w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : L a s tb o r n i s t h e s u r n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fh a t u w a n i is th e s u r n a m e .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w s o m e ti m e s p e o p le s t a r t w i t h t h e s u r n a m e

w h e n th e y w r i t e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P e o p le ’s n a m e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Than you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

M r C h a ir m a n t h i s w i tn e s s - m a y I ju s t

b r i n g to y o u r a t t e n ti o n t h a t t h i s w i tn e s s is g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k a g a i n fo r
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F o r th is r e a s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To d a y w h a t h e is g o in g t o d o h e i s g o i n g
t o s i m p ly la y o u t t h e p r o j e c t a s t h a t D D T P r o j e c t th a t M s M o k h o b o
m e n ti o n e d w h e n s h e t e s t if i e d .

Th e n w e w i ll i n te r p o s e w i tn e s s e s t h a t

a r e g o in g t o d e a l p a r tl y w i t h t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h a t p r o g r a m a n d
w h a t e x a c t ly w a s d o n e o n th e g r o u n d in t h a t p r o g r a m a n d th e n t h is
w i t n e s s is g o i n g to c o m e b a c k b e c a u s e th e n t h e r e w a s a n - a n
in v e s t i g a t io n d o n e b y Tr e a s u r y a n d h e is g o i n g to b e t a l k i n g - a l th o u g h
h e w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n b u t h e r e p r e s e n ts t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
H e w ill t a l k t o th a t a n d th a t - th o s e a r e t h e b i g fi le s t h a t I
m e n ti o n e d t o y o u C h a ir l a s t n ig h t w h i c h h a v e n o t c o m e t o h a n d . T h e y
20

a r e w i th u s a s - a s - t h e y h a v e n o t b r o u g h t - b e e n b r o u g h t t o - t o y o u
yet …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e c a u s e o f t h e m a g n it u d e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O f d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t is in v o lv e d in t h e r e .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Fo r th a t r e a s o n th e n w e d e c i d e d t h a t fo r

n o w h e m u s t c o m e a n d i n tr o d u c e th e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e h e a s t h e P r o j e c t
Manager …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h o w m a n y p h a s e s
was it supposed to go …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d w h a t w e r e t h e c r i t ic a l a r e a s t h a t w e r e
10

g o i n g t o b e fo c u s e d o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. N o t h a t is fi n e . B e f o r e w e p r o c e e d I - I w a s

lo o k in g a t t h e li s t o f w i tn e s s e s i n r e g a r d t o th e S A B C e i g h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i n - I w a s l o o k in g a t th e w h o le lis t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I w a s m o r e i n te r e s t e d i n t e r m s o f t h e S A B C e i g h t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Now of course I do not remember each and every

m e m b e r o f t h e S A B C e ig h t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m th e m e d i a …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A t th e ti m e o f th e i n c i d e n ts b u t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
c a l l e d I th i n k th r e e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h r e e f o r n o w, y e s M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I - t h e r e m i g h t b e n o n e e d o b v i o u s ly to c a ll e a c h
and every one of them …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h e y a r e c o v e r in g th e s a m e th in g …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r s e e i n g M r Vu y o M v o k o ’s n a m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d I m is s i t ? Is i t t h e r e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o i t is n o t t h e r e y e t C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t th e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But we could …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s th e y h a d u p d a t e d u s o n
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n th e c o o r d i n a t io n o f t h e ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Evidence but …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

To t h e e x t e n t th a t C h a ir fe e ls y o u w o u l d

lik e h i m s p e c i fic a lly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t - th a t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e y w o u ld b e
a tt e n d i n g t o , y e s .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o I t h i n k i t w o u l d - I t h i n k i t w o u ld b e g o o d

b e c a u s e fr o m w h a t I t h in k M s T h a n d e k a G q u b u l e - M b e k i s a i d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H is c a s e s e e m s t o h a v e e n d e d u p b e i n g d i ff e r e n t f r o m
…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r s i n t h e s e n s e t h a t t h e o th e r s w e r e r e i n s ta t e d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n th e y w e r e a ll d is m i s s e d a t t h e s a m e t i m e .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s I u n d e r s ta n d th e p o s i t o n f o r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: The same reasons.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: They were reinstated but he was not …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

F o r c e r t a i n r e a s o n s a n d Ms G q u b u le - M b e k i w a s

s a y in g t h a t y o u k n o w h e s u ff e r e d …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The most, yes.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Q u i t e a l o t fo r t w o y e a r s w i t h o u t a j o b .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w th a t - t h a t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t . I a m in t e r e s t e d i n
h e a r in g h o w …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H o w t h a t a ffe c t e d h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h a t is - t h a t i s v e r y d i ffe r e n t fr o m t h e o th e r

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
seven.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. S o …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I w o u l d l ik e to - I w o u ld lik e th a t h e b e a p p r o a c h e d
t o s e e w h e t h e r h e c o u ld w a n t t o s h a r e w i t h th e C o m m i s s i o n …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H is p e r s p e c t iv e s a n d h o w t h e d is m is s a l a ff e c t e d h i m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A ff e c t e d h i m ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t - t h a t w il l b e d o n e . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d i t w o u ld b e in t e r e s ti n g a ls o t o s e e w h e t h e r t o
t h e e x te n t th a t t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a n y c o s t o r d e r s t h a t w e r e g r a n t e d
in f a v o u r o f t h e S A B C a g a i n h i m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e t h e r t h e S A B C e n fo r c e d t h o s e c o s t o r d e r s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON: And so on.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i ll d o t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t k i n d o f th i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e w il l l o o k i n to …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That, yes.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o th e r p a r t w h i c h I t h o u g h t o f w a s a ls o t h a t w e w e d id n o t d e a l w i th t h e - w h a t v e r s i o n w a s p u t u p b y t h e S A B C b e f o r e
t h e L a b o u r C o u r t in o p p o s i n g t h e c h a ll e n g e b y t h e S A B C e ig h t o f th e ir
d is m i s s a l .

W h a t v e r s i o n d i d t h e y p u t u p a b o u t t h e r e a s o n s fo r

d is m i s s a l s a n d o b v io u s ly th e c o u r t j u d g m e n t is t h e r e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And one can read it but it would be good even for the
p u b lic if w e c o u l d c o n n e c t …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That - that version.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t b y s a y in g th is is w h a t t h e c o u r t u l t i m a te ly fi n d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If f o r e x a m p l e i t r e j e c t e d th e ir v e r s io n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i t s a i d th a t i s n o t a c o n s ti t u t i o n a l ly a c c e p ta b le y o u
know reason …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

F o r d is m is s i n g p e o p l e .

I t w o u ld b e g o o d t o c o n n e c t

a l l o f th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir m a y t h e n E X H I B I T

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C C 2 4 b e - b e a d m it t e d a s a n e x h ib i t a n d t h a t t h e n i f t h e C h a ir i s
s a ti s f i e d t h a t t h e w i t n e s s b e s w o r n i n . O h , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Did we …?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e d i d - w e d id C h a ir. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h e n t h a t is w h a t I w a s t h i n k in g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ms - I have just been reminded that we did
a d m i t it . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e c a u s e i t c o n t a i n s t h e s t a t e m e n ts o f th e
10

previous witnesses. Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h a t - w h a t I w a s t h i n k i n g i s w h e th e r w e d id
n o t d e c i d e th a t it w o u l d b e t h e l e v e r a r c h fi l e t h a t w o u l d b e e x h i b i t s o
a n d s o a n d i n th a t f il e t h e r e w o u ld b e …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Numerous …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a n y s t a t e m e n ts …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e t h e ir o w n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E x h i b i ts ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e p a r a t e e x h ib i t n u m b e r s .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C h a i r b u t w e - w h e n - w e l l w h a t w e
d i d I th i n k s o m e o f t h o s e s t a t e m e n t s w e r e id e n ti fi e d a n d p u t i n a s
in d i v i d u a l e x h ib i t n u m b e r s lik e y e s t e r d a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t I t h i n k it is - i t is s i m p ly t h e q u e s ti o n
o f p a c k a g i n g b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e i n o n e l e v e r a r c h f il e …

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t i f th e y a r e p a c k a g e d s e p a r a t e l y i n t h e
- in t h e p r e s e n ta t io n fi l e s th e n th e y g e t a d m i t t e d s e p a r a te ly a s t h o s e
exhibits.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. We …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
agreed upon.

W e d id d i s c u s s i t .

What I am not sure is what we

I t h i n k a t s o m e s t a g e I m a y h a v e s a i d s o m e th i n g lik e

okay it is fine …
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But I do not - I cannot remember because you know

o n t h e o u ts i d e y o u h a v e g o t E X H I B I T C c 2 0 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o u n l e s s - u n le s s I d id s a y E X H I B I T C C 2 0 …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To 2 4 . I t h i n k th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e i f …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is h o w I r e m e m b e r i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f o n e s a y s E X H I B I T C C 2 0 to E X H I B I T C C 2 4 . I t is n o t
- i t is n o t th e fi le .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e - th e fi le it s e l f, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th e i n d i v i d u a l s ta t e m e n ts …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S t a t e m e n t s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In s i d e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

M a y b e - m a y b e i t is s a f e r C h a ir t o

ju s t i d e n t if y t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d a d m i t t h a t s t a te m e n t a s e x h i b i t f o r

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
c o n s i s te n c y s a k e …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I just want us not to get confused or anybody

la t e r o n w h o h a s t o g o t h r o u g h t h is …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h ic h o n e w a s 2 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e t t in g c o n f u s e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n w h a t is c l e a r is t h a t o n t h e s p i n e o f t h e l e v e r
a r c h fi le it is c le a r t h a t - w e ll m a y b e i t s h o u l d s a y e x h i b i ts .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: EXHIBIT CC20 to …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e - ja - o r s h o u l d w e l e a v e i t a s i t is a n d i f w e
d e c i d e t o c h a n g e i t w e w i ll d o t h a t la t e r ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. I f - i f t h is is
CHAIRPERSON: Because the others we have gone …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: We have indeed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In a c e r ta in w a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n c l u d e d t h e f il e i ts e l f , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d w e h a v e a d m i t t e d i t a n y w a y.

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. I t i s j u s t th a t a s y o u a s k q u e s ti o n s i f y o u
t a lk a b o u t - i f y o u r e f e r t o E X H I B I T 2 4 th a t a n y o n e w h o h a s b e e n
f o ll o w i n g o r r e a d s t h e tr a n s c r ip t m i g h t th in k i f th e y g o t o lo o k a t t h e fi le
- l e v e r a r c h fi le s t h e y w i ll fi n d …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t w o u ld o n l y h a v e 2 4 a n d y o u w il l n o t

Page 11 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
have 20.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) i n s i d e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o tr u e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

But maybe let us proceed then.

We must just think

a b o u t h o w t o m a k e s u r e t h e r e is n o c o n f u s i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y t h e w i t n e s s t h e n b e
- be sworn in?
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: F h a t u w a n i L a s t b o r n M u t u v h i .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: N o I d o n o t .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
20

D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: S o h e l p m e G o d .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s )

Page 12 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Th a n k

you

M r C h a ir.

Thank

you.

D r M u t u v h i t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t in fr o n t o f y o u w h ic h h a s b e e n o p e n e d
a n d i t is u n d e r d i v i d e r n u m b e r 2 4 a n d i t is m a r k e d a t p a g e 1 o f t h a t
d o c u m e n t . I s i t i n fr o n t o f y o u ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is m a r k e d s t a t e m e n t .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: ( I n a u d i b l e ) .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u p le a s e g o t o p a g e 2 3 o f th a t

document?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: 2 0 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 - 3 - 2 3 . O h , y o u r m i c is o ff . I b e g y o u r
p a r d o n . S o r r y. Yo u w il l h a v e to s t a r t a fr e s h , s o r r y. T h a n k y o u .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: P a g e 2 3 ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

P a g e 1 - l e t u s s t a r t w i th p a g e 1

because that was not recorded.
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

T h e r e i s a d o c u m e n t t h a t is m a r k e d

s t a te m e n t o n p a g e 1 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s , c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d a t p a g e 2 3 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t t h e r e is a
s ig n a tu r e a n d is th a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e a n d a r e t h o s e y o u r n a m e s ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h a t is my s i g n a t u r e y e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d y o u s i g n e d t h a t s t a t e m e n t o n

Page 13 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
30 August 2019?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s I d id .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d a r e t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e s t a te m e n t
tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d d i d y o u d e p o s e t o i t fr e e ly a n d

v o l u n ta r i ly ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e t e l l t h e
10

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e y o u a r e c u r r e n t ly e m p l o y e d ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: I a m c u r r e n tly e m p l o y e d a t th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
you.

Ye s .

P l e a s e fa c e t h e C h a ir.

Ye s , t h a n k

T h e - a s w h a t - w h a t is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u h o l d w i th i n t h e

d e p a r t m e n t?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: I h o l d t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e C h i e f
D ir e c t o r r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e D ig i ta l M ig r a ti o n P r o g r a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Ye s .

Could

you

ju s t

p la c e

your

q u a li fi c a t io n s b r ie f ly o n r e c o r d ?
20

D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

I h o ld a M a s t e r ’s D e g r e e in -

o f C o m m e r c e i n Pr o j e c t M a n a g e m e n t , M a s t e r ’s D e g r e e in P u b l ic
A d m i n i s t r a t io n .

S o r r y.

M a s te r ’s - M a s t e r ’s D e g r e e i n B u s in e s s

A d m i n i s t r a t io n a n d a D o c t o r a t e D e g r e e i n P u b l ic A d m in is tr a ti o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , th a n k y o u a n d h o w l o n g h a v e y o u

b e e n w i th t h e d e p a r t m e n t ?

Page 14 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k - I th i n k th is o n e s tr i k e s a ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A ( in t e r v e n e s ) . N o t m e n t i o n in g M a tr ic .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r ti n g a t th e b o t t o m a n d g o i n g u p …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s t a r t - o r s ta r t i n g u p g o in g d o w n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and - and how many years have
y o u b e e n w i t h th e d e p a r t m e n t ?
10

D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

I j o i n e d th e d e p a r t m e n t i n

October 2014.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 2014?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y a n d b e fo r e t h a t h a v e y o u h a d a n y

e x p e r i e n c e a t a ll in P r o j e c t M a n a g e m e n t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

Ye s .

M y w h o le li f e I h a v e

b e e n - I h a v e b e e n in t h e P r o j e c t M a n a g e m e n t e n v ir o n m e n t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d w h e r e - d i d y o u - w i t h - o p e r a t e

w i t h i n t h e Pr o je c t m a n a g e m e n t S p a c e w i t h i n a n y o f t h e S O E s o f
20

Government or outside or in the private sector?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

Ye s .

I w o r k e d f o r Te l k o m a t

m i d d l e m a n a g e m e n t a n d s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t l e v e l r e s p o n s i b l e fo r
s tr a t e g ic p r o j e c ts i n th e - in t h e c o m p a n y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

In paragraph 4 you deal with your

a p p o i n t m e n t a s a P r o j e c t M a n a g e r.

W h a t w e r e y o u a p p o i n t e d to

Page 15 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
m a n a g e a t t h a t p o i n t?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: I w a s a p p o i n te d t o m a n a g e th e
- t h e D i g i t a l M i g r a ti o n P r o j e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

The

project

I

am

s t ill

r e s p o n s i b l e fo r a t th e m o m e n t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C o u ld y o u ju s t e x p la i n to t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t th is p r o j e c t w a s - w a s a b o u t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h e - th e m a in o b j e c t iv e o f t h e
10

p r o j e c t is t o r e le a s e th e s p e c tr u m th r o u g h m ig r a t io n o f t e l e v is i o n
o w n in g h o u s e h o ld s t h a t a r e c u r r e n t ly v i e w i n g o n a n a l o g u e p la t f o r m .
T h a t is th e - th e m a in o b j e c ti v e o f t h e - o f t h e p r o j e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y.

I n s i m p l e te r ms w h a t d o e s t h a t

mean?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h a t c u r r e n t - t h e - th e c u r r e n t
b r o a d c a s t o n a n a l o g u e p la t f o r m i t i s m o r e c o s tly i n te r m s o f th e - t h e
b a n d w i d th . I t u ti li s e s m o r e b a n d w i d t h . S o m i g r a ti n g fr o m a n a l o g u e to
d i g i t a l p la t f o r m w il l e n a b l e t h e b r o a d c a s t e r t o - b r o a d c a s te r s t o h a v e a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o l a u n c h m o r e c h a n n e ls .
20

F o r a n e x a m p l e C h a ir w h e r e

S A B C ’s c u r r e n t - S A B C 1 i s c u r r e n tl y b r o a d c a s ti n g .
P o s t m i g r a t i o n w h e n t h e s p e c t r u m is r e l e a s e d S A B C 1
C h a n n e l c a n h a v e o p p o r tu n i t y to b r o a d c a s t b e tw e e n e i g h t a n d 1 4
channels.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o - a n d t h e n h o w d o e s t h a t b e n e fi t
t h e p u b lic o r t h e v a r io u s h o u s e h o l d s ?

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h e - t h e h o u s e h o l d s b e n e fi ts
a s - a s d e m o n s tr a te d i n w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d s o f a r C h a i r i s t h a t th e - in
- i n a d ig i ta l p l a t f o r m w e - w e c u r r e n tly e v e n h a v e m o r e c h a n n e ls . W e
h a v e S A B C 1 , t w o , t h r e e , S A B C N e w s , S A B C S p o r t a n d p a r l ia m e n t a r y
c h a n n e l o n t h e d ig i ta l p l a t f o r m .

W h e r e a s o n t h e a n a lo g u e p la t f o r m

those - those channels are not there.
I t i s b e c a u s e o f t h e i n d ic a ti o n I h a v e m a d e e a r li e r t h a t i n a
d i g i t a l b a n d w i d t h i t i s l o w a n d i t a c c o m m o d a t e s m o r e c h a n n e ls t o b e
broadcasted on.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

S o c o m m u n i ti e s a n d p u b lic

w i ll h a v e m o r e c h a n n e ls o n d ig i ta l p la t f o r m t h a t w il l a ls o e n a b le th e t h e - a g a i n C h a i r i t i s t h e q u a l i ty t h a t w e h a v e o n t h e a n a l o g u e - o n t h e
d i g i t a l p l a t fo r m th a n t h e o n e t h a t w e h a v e o n th e - o n th e d i g i t a l d i g i t a l p l a t fo r m .
I f y o u t a k e t h e - th e a n a l o g u e t e l e v is i o n s e t n o w a n d - a n d
c o m p a r e w i t h t h e o n e th a t w e a r e v i e w i n g o n t h e d i g i t a l p la t f o r m w e - i t
- i t l o o k s - th e d ig i ta l p la t f o r m l o o k s l ik e t h e o n e t h a t I a m fa c e - I a m
f a c i n g n o w b u t o n t h e a n a l o g u e p l a tf o r m it h a s t h o s e in v is i b l e - s o m e
20

o th e r ti m e s y o u w i ll h a v e a d e m o n s tr a ti o n o f s o m e b o d y c o m i n g w i th a n
a e r i a l - a b u n n y a e r ia l y o u k n o w.
Yo u c a n s ta n d t h e r e .

So those are some of the - of the

b e n e fi ts t h a t c o m m u n i ti e s w h o h a v e a lr e a d y m i g r a te d a r e b e n e fi t ti n g a t
the moment.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 17 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I th i n k y o u a s s u m e t h a t s o m e o f u s a r e n o t

f a m ili a r w i t h w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . I d o n o t k n o w t h a t w h e n o n e
o f t h e c a s e s c a m e b e f o r e c o u r t o n e r e a d q u i t e a lo t i n t h e p a p e r s a b o u t
t h is w h o le p r o j e c t b u t t h a t w a s s o m e ti m e b a c k b u t i t s e e ms t h a t t h e
p r o j e c t h a d to d o w it h a n a l o g u e a n d d i g i t a l , o k a y. I t h i n k y o u m u s t t a k e
u s fr o m th e b e g in n i n g to s a y a n a lo g u e r e f e r s t o th is .
D i g i t a l r e f e r s t o th is . T h e d is a d v a n t a g e s a b o u t a n a l o g u e a r e
t h e f o l lo w in g .

Th e a d v a n t a g e s o f d ig i t a l a r e t h e f o l l o w in g a n d I a m

s a y in g t h a t b e c a u s e I k n o w th a t d o w n t h e l in e …
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e w il l b e n e e d i n g to l o o k a t t h a t b u t it w i ll j u s t b e

h e l p f u l to m e . Yo u m i g h t n o t n e e d t o g o i n to g r e a t d e t a i l a t th is s ta g e
b u t i t w o u l d b e h e l p f u l i f y o u a r e a b le t o j u s t g iv e m e th o s e fe a tu r e s a s
w e - s o t h a t a s w e g o - g o a l o n g o n e k e e p s th a t i n m in d .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t in - in
s h o r t a n d a t h i g h l e v e l t h e a n a lo g u e - b o t h a n a l o g u e a n d d i g i t a l
b r o a d c a s t u til is e s t h e tr a n s m i t te r s w h i c h a r e k n o w n a s a e r ia ls .
CHAIRPERSON: Aerials?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A e r ia ls .
20

D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: A e r i a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

T h e - th e - n o t n e c e s s a r y

a e r i a l s . Tr a n s m i tt e r s I w a n t e d t o s a y.

Page 18 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h tr a n s m i t te r s , j a .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:
towers.

T h e - th e tr a n s m it t e r s a t t h e

T h e y a r e k n o w n - w e ll k n o w n a s t o w e r s .

H o w e v e r t h e - th e

a n a lo g u e p la t f o r m a s I h a v e i n d ic a te d e a r l i e r c o n s u m e s m o r e b a n d w id t h
b e c a u s e o f t h e t e c h n o lo g y i t - it u t il is e s . T h e d i g i t a l - o n t h e d i g i t a l t h e
v e r y s a m e tr a n s m i t te d a r e c o n fi g u r e d w i t h a t e c h n o l o g y t h a t is d i g i t a l .
T h a t is c o n v e r te d
d e c o d e r.

to

a

te l e v i s i o n b r o a d c a s t t h r o u g h

A l t h o u g h t h e t e c h n o l o g y is a d v a n c e d t o m a k e u s e o f t h e

in t e g r a t e d d e c o d e r t h a t is b u i l t i n s id e a t e l e v i s i o n s e t .
10

a

So the - the

d is a d v a n t a g e o f a n a l o g u e b r o a d c a s t is t h e m a k i n g u s e o f m o r e
b a n d w i d th b u t o n d i g i t a l th e - t h e a d v a n t a g e o f d i g it a l p l a t fo r m i t is l o w
b a n d w i d th t h a t e n a b l e s m o r e c h a n n e ls t o b e b r o a d c a s t e d i n th e - i n t h e
s a m e c h u n k o f - o f s p e c tr u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n l a y te r m s w h a t is - w h a t i s b a n d w i d t h t h a t d i g i t a l a n a lo g u e c o n s u m e s m o r e o f a n d d ig i ta l l e s s o f?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: C h a ir I m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o t o g iv e t h e - t h e q u a n t i ty o f - o f b a n d w i d t h t h a t - th a t a n a l o g u e …
CHAIRPERSON: No, no.
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: A n d …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , I a m ju s t t a l k i n g a b o u t w h a t i t is . I t i s s o m e t h i n g
that does what or …?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

T h e b a n d w i d th r e fe r s t o t h e

a ir w a v e s …
CHAIRPESON: Oh.
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h a t c o m m u n ic a te t o th e …

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t a r e - t h a t a r e n e e d e d i n o r d e r to b r o a d c a s t .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: I n o r d e r to b r o a d c a s t t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n a lo g u e - t h e a n a l o g u e p l a t fo r m a s y o u c a ll i t …
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: ( I n te r v e n e s ) m o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n s u m e s a l o t o f th a t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And the digital consumes less?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: D ig it a l c o n s u m e s l e s s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th a t - th a t a ff e c ts t h e is s u e o f c o s t s ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t , th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h a n k y o u . S o ,

20

t h e n a s y o u - th e n y o u d e a l w i th w h a t is i t t h a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e - y o u
d e a l w i th y o u r te a m a n d y o u d e a l w i th h o w y o u w e r e g o i n g t o s e t u p
t h is p r o j e c t a s a Pr o j e c t M a n a g e r. Yo u c o u l d ju s t r o u g h ly a t th e ti m e
a n d a s y o u w e r e a p p o in t e d t o p r o je c t m a n a g e r t h e - t h e p r o g r a m j u s t
h i g h l ig h t t o th e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t w e r e th e i m m e d i a t e c h a l le n g e s t h a t
y o u w e r e fa c i n g r o u g h ly a s y o u d e a l w i th t h e m .

Page 20 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
I s e e y o u m e n ti o n t h e o ff ic i a ls t h a t y o u w o r k e d w i t h .

They

a r e c o n t a i n e d i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d y o u r t e a m a s a w h o l e b u t b a s ic a l ly
t h e n w h e r e a r e t h e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t y o u h a d to - t o c o n t e n d w i th a t t h a t
point?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

C h a ir a t t h e ti m e

of my

a p p o i n t m e n t in - in 2 0 1 4 I w a s b r i e fe d th a t t h e - t h e p r o j e c t i s b e h i n d
s c h e d u l e g i v e n th e i m m i n e n t i n t e r n a ti o n a l t e l e c o m m u n ic a t i o n s d e a d li n e
- u n io n d e a d li n e o f 1 7 J u n e 2 0 1 5 a n d b y t h a t ti m e I w a s b r i e fe d th a t I
n e e d e d to i n i t ia l p r o p e r c o o r d i n a t i o n o f r o l e p la y i n g e n t i ti e s t o e n s u r e
10

t h a t w e - w e t r y t o m e e t t h e d e a d l in e s a n d th e - th e e n ti t ie s a r e
p r e s e n t e d - t h a t a r e p l a y i n g a r o l e a r e o n t h e - o n th e d o c u m e n t th a t
was not submitted on there …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

But I have made it - made it

a v a i la b le t h is m o r n in g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M ig h t I j u s t b e g

le a v e to ju s t h a n d u p t h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F o r a d m i n i s tr a ti o n p u r p o s e s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

S o m a in ly it w a s e n s u r e t h a t

t h e - t h e r o le s t h a t t h e d i ffe r e n t e n t it ie s a r e p la y i n g a r e w e ll
c o o r d i n a t e d t o e n s u r e a s m o o th d e l iv e r y o f - o f t h e - o f th e p r o j e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So you do have - doctor?

Page 21 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s , I d o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Oh you do.

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

Could you

ju s t t a k e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h r o u g h th is d i a g r a m th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n u s ?
W h a t - w h a t is th is d o c u m e n t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h is is a - C h a ir th is i s a - a n
e c o s y s t e m t h a t w e - w e d e v e lo p e d t o g u i d e t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n p r o c e s s
o f t h e p r o g r a m i d e n t i fy i n g i n d iv id u a l r o le s a n d r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s f o r
d i ff e r e n t

e n ti t ie s .

This

in c l u d e s

the

d e p a r t m e n t,

C o m m u n i c a t io n o f A u th o r i ty, S o u t h A f r ic a n
10

Bureau

Independent
of Standards,

S E N T E C H a s s i g n a l d is tr i b u to r.
The role of department that we - we engaged on to harmonise
fr e q u e n c y s p e c tr u m p o t e n t ia l in t e r f e r e n c e . Th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f - o f t h e
d e c o d e r s I s p o k e a b o u t e a r l i e r - th e - w h ic h w a s d o n e b y U S A A S A . T h e
r o l e o f d e p a r t m e n t t o r a i s e - t o e n s u r e r a is in g a w a r e n e s s a n d e d u c a ti o n
t o t h e p u b l ic s o th a t i t c a n e n t ic e p e o p le t o t a k e u p t h e - t h e d i g i t a l
d e c o d e r s . T h e r o l e o f S A P O t o d is tr i b u te a n d - a n d r e g is t e r i n d i g e n c e
w h o q u a li fy f o r G o v e r n m e n t s u b s i d y t o - to b e m i g r a te d a n d th e
b r o a d c a s t e r s t o p r o v i d e c o n te n t .
A s I h a v e i n d ic a te d in t h e d i g i t a l p la t f o r m C h a ir w e h a v e m o r e

20

c h a n n e l s t h a n th e o n e s t h a t a r e o n t h e a n a l o g u e p la t f o r m in c l u d i n g
o th e r b r o a d c a s te r s .

E T V, S A B C a n d c o m m u n it y t e l e v is i o n a n d to

e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e is a p r o c e s s o f s w it c h in g o ff t h o s e a n a l o g u e
tr a n s m i tt e r s t h a t a r e c u r r e n t ly o p e r a ti o n a l .
I - I w il l s p e a k la t e r C h a ir t h a t w e h a v e d e m o n s tr a t e d t h a t i n
a r e a w h e r e w e h a v e s w it c h e d o ff w e h a v e m i g r a t e d a l l - a l l p e o p l e - w e

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
h a v e s w it c h e d o ff t h o s e a n a l o g u e tr a n s m i s s i o n s e r v ic e s a n d o n c e w e w e a r e d o n e w i t h t h e r o l l o u t o f th is p r o g r a m a ll a n a l o g u e t r a n s m i s s i o n
s e r v ic e s h a v e b e e n s w i tc h e d o ff t h e r e is g o i n g t o b e a fr e q u e n c y r is k
t a k i n g - r is k ta k i n g a n d t h e n t h e r e l e a s e o f t h e d i g i t a l d iv i d e n d w h i c h is
t h e s p e c tr u m .

M u c h n e e d e d f o r t h e - fo r t h e t e l e c o m m u n ic a ti o n

s e r v ic e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you and then you have just

h i g h l ig h te d t h e r o l e p l a y e r s in t h a t w h o le p r o c e s s …
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d w h o w a s g o i n g to d e a l - y o u w e r e t h e
P r o je c t M a n a g e r b u t y o u w e r e n o t g o in g t o d e a l w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t
matters. Am I correct?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s , c o r r e c t .
A 0 D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h o - w h ic h e n t i ty w a s d e s i g n e d o r
was

a l lo c a t e d

th a t

-

that

mandate

to

a c t u a ll y

procure

the

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e - o f - o f - th e s t a k e h o l d e r s o f th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n
of that program?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: I t is t h e U n iv e r s a l S e r v ic e a n d
Agency of South Africa, USAASA.
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d y o u d e a l w it h t h a t a t p a g e 6 o f

your statement. Am I right?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y s p o k e n a b o u t t h e p o s t

o ffic e a n d i t s r o le …
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d - a n d is it a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t w h e n y o u
s a y t h e p o s t o ffi c e w a s g o i n g t o a t t e n d to w a r e h o u s i n g s o w h a t i t
m e a n s is t h a t th e y w e r e g o i n g to b e r e s p o n s i b le f o r t h e w a r e h o u s in g o f
these decoders?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

The ideal situation Chair is

t h a t t h e - th e d e c o d e r s w e r e g o i n g t o b e m a d e a v a i la b l e t o S A P O f o r
d is t r i b u t io n i m m e d i a te ly …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: A - a n d n o t t o b e w a r e h o u s e d
10

b e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y t h a t w o u l d - w o u l d i n c u r c o s ts .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

Ye s .

S o t h e c r i ti c a l r o l e o f

S A P O w a s to e n s u r e t h a t t h e - t h e d e c o d e r s o r d e r e d a r e ta k e n t o p o s t
o ffic e b r a n c h e s w h e r e i n d i g e n c e w i ll b e a b l e t o e i t h e r c o ll e c t o r th e y
w i ll b e d i s tr i b u t e d i n th o s e - i n th o s e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n t h o s e ( i n te r v e n e s ) , y e s . T h e o n e t h i n g
t h a t y o u h a v e n o t m e n t io n e d h i g h li g h t e d t h e r e is t h e S o u th A f r i c a n
Bureau of Standards.

T h a t i t is s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u a ls o h a d to l o o k

in t o . Yo u d e a l w i t h t h a t a t p a g e 5 j u s t p a r a g r a p h s 2 7 to 2 9 . C o u ld y o u
20

ju s t e x p l a in t o t h e C h a ir w h y th a t w a s i m p o r t a n t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: C h a ir I s h o u l d i n d ic a te t h a t b y
t h e ti m e o f m y a p p o i n t m e n t t h e s t a n d a r d s w e r e - w e r e a lr e a d y d o n e i n
2 0 1 2 . M i n e w a s to c o n fir m i n A p r i l w h i c h - w h ic h w a s d o n e i n A p r i l t h a t
t h e s t a n d a r d s a r e - a r e s t ill r e le v a n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

Page 24 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

I n c o m p l ia n c e w i t h t h e p o l ic y

d ir e c t iv e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

To m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e d e c o d e r s t h a t

people are given are …
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

Are

complying

w it h

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A r e c o m p la i n t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: S t a n d a r d s p u b l ic , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n - n o w y o u a r e th e
10

P r o je c t M a n a g e r. Yo u h a d to c o m e u p w it h y o u r p l a n a n d a c c o r d i n g to
y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u h a d a th r e e p h a s e p l a n .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d y o u j u s t ta k e t h e C h a ir t o th e
fir s t p la n - fir s t p h a s e o f y o u r p la n ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th e - g iv e n
t h e - t h e c h a ll e n g e - t h e c h a ll e n g e a t t h e t i m e t h e i m m i n e n t 2 0 June 2015.

20

T h e r e - t h e r e w e r e r i s k s t h a t i f w e d o n o t c o m p l e t e th e

p r o j e c t a t th a t p a r t - a t - o n - o n t h e d a te o f - o f J u n e t h e r e w e r e
p o t e n t i a l - t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a p o t e n ti a l i n t e r fe r e n c e o f s p e c tr u m
w i t h t h e n e ig h b o u r in g c o u n tr ie s a n d w e - w e e m b a r k e d o n b il a te r a l
e n g a g e m e n ts .
S o m e t h i n g I w ill ta lk t o i n t h is - in th is d is c u s s i o n b u t t h e fi r s t
o n e f o r th e p r o g r a m w a s t o e n s u r e th a t w e a d d r e s s t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
A s tr o n o m y G e o g r a p h ic A d v a n t a g e A c t o f 2 0 0 7 r e l a ti n g to t h e k m ² a r e a .
T h a t i s t h e a r e a C h a ir th a t I h a v e i n d i c a t e d th a t d u e t o - to th e
i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h is p la n w e m a n a g e d t o r e li e f t h o s e a r e a s b y
c o n n e c t in g a ll in d iv i d u a ls o r t e l e p h o n e o w n i n g h o u s e h o l d s i n t h e a r e a
a n d w e h a v e m a n a g e d t o s w i tc h o ff a b o u t 1 7 tr a n s m i t te r s .
S o e v e r y b o d y w h o is w i t h i n t h e k m ² i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e a r e
v ie w in g te l e v i s i o n b r o a d c a s ts o n d i g i t a l p l a t fo r m . T h e P h a s e 2 …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o r r y.

Before you move on.

D o e s th a t

m e a n t h a t t h e y d o n o t n e e d D S T V o r th e y s ti ll n e e d D S T V t o a c c e s s
10

c e r t a i n c h a n n e ls ?
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: M a y b e I s h a l l i n d i c a t e t h a t t h e
- w e h a v e t w o d i ff e r e n t ty p e s o f - o f d e c o d e r s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: T h e o n e t h a t c o n n e c ts t h r o u g h
t o w e r s o r tr a n s m i t te r s t h a t w e h a v e - t h a t - t h a t h a v e b e e n c o n f ig u r e d
b y S E N T E C H a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y a n d w e h a v e th e d i g i t a l p la t f o r m w h i c h
c o n n e c t s v i a s a te ll i te .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I:

20

S o i n - in th a t - in t h a t a r e a

b e c a u s e o f th e p o t e n ti a l a n d i n t e r f e r e n c e w e c o n n e c t e d t h e m v i a
s a t e ll i te d e c o d e r s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R F H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay and then …
D R P H ATU WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

Page 26 of 92

Th e s e c o n d p h a s e w a s t o

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
a d d r e s s b o r d e r l i n e a r e a s . D u e t o t h e p o t e n ti a l i n t e r f e r e n c e w e f o u n d it
i m p o r t a n t t o c o n c e n t r a t e o n t h e b o r d e r l i n e a r e a s . S o , th a t i f f o r a n
e x a m p l e L e s o t h o w a n t to l a u n c h th e ir te l e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s e r v ic e s , th e y
d o n ’t i n t e r fe r e w i t h b o r d e r s o f L a d y b r a n d a n d t h o s e to w n s th a t a r e .
B e c a u s e i f th a t h a p p e n s p o s t J u n e 2 0 1 7 w e w e r e n o t p r o t e c t e d .
C o u n tr i e s lik e L e s o t h o c a n te ll u s to s w i tc h o ff t h o s e b r o a d c a s t i n g
s e r v ic e s w h i c h w il l h a v e d is a d v a n t a g e o r w h i c h h a d p o t e n t ia l t o
d is a d v a n t a g e o r c o m m u n i ty in b r o a d c a s t in g . S o , t h e s e c o n d p h a s e w a s
t o t a r g e t t h o s e to w n s o r p r o v i n c e s a l o n g t h e t o w n s t h a t a r e s i tu a t e d
10

a l o n g th e b o r d e r s . A n d th e t h ir d p h a s e w a s to c o n c e n tr a t e o n G a u te n g
a n d W e s t e r n C a p e w h e r e t h e r e a r e n o p o t e n t ia l i n te r f e r e n c e . T h a t w a s
t h e r a ti o n a l e b e h i n d t h e p l a n n i n g o f t h is p r o g r a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I n th e f o l lo w in g p a r a g r a p h s y o u d e a l
w i t h v a r i o u s c h a ll e n g e s w h e r e E T V h a d l a u n c h e d a l e g a l c h a ll e n g e
d e a li n g w i th t h e s e p t a l b o x e s ’ e n c r y p t io n . A n d y o u d e a l a ls o w i th t h e
C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t d e c is io n a t p a r a g r a p h 4 1 . B u t I w o u l d lik e t o t a k e
y o u t o w h a t y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 4 2 .3 a t p a g e 9 b e c a u s e i t r e l a te s t o
p r o g r e s s . A m I c o r r e c t? T h e p r o g r e s s in te r ms o f t h e p la n n i n g a n d
c o o r d i n a t io n t h a t y o u e m b a r k e d u p o n a n d e x e c u ti o n .

20

D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . C o u ld y o u j u s t t e ll th e C h a i r p e r s o n

w h a t y o u w a n t to c o n v e y th e r e ? I k n o w th a t y o u ’v e m e n t io n e d t h a t
c e r t a i n a r e a s h a v e a lr e a d y m i g r a t e d b u t c a n y o u j u s t t e l l th e C h a ir a n d
w h a t d o y o u w a n t t o c o n v e y i n th a t p a r a g r a p h ?
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

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C h a ir, d u e t o t h e C o u r t

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
c h a l le n g e s h ig h l i g h t e d in th e s t a t e m e n t t h e r e w e r e s o m e d e l a y s th a t w e
e x p e r i e n c e d u n ti l t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t r u l e d in fa v o u r o f th e
M i n is t e r i n th a t r e g a r d t o b e t h e r ig h t , to h a v e f o l lo w e d t h e r i g h t
p r o c e s s i n th e d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h e p o li c y. T h e n b y th e ti m e w e a l r e a d y
h a d a c h a l l e n g e o f h a v in g d e c o d e r s s t o r e d i n t h e S A P O w a r e h o u s e a n d
w e h a d t o r e - p l a n t h e p r o c e s s . M a y b e th e o th e r is s u e t h a t a ls o
c o n tr i b u t e d t o t h a t n o t o n ly t h e p o li c y w a s th a t th e r e w e r e s h o r ta g e s o f
t h e d i r e c t t o h o m e . D i r e c t t o h o m e , C h a ir I r e f e r to t h e s a t e l li t e o r i e n te d d e c o d e r s . T h e r e w e r e s h o r t a g e s o f t h o s e . To g i v e a t y p ic a l
10

e x a m p l e , i n J o h a n n e s b u r g … ( i n d i s t i n c t) i t c o u l d b e o n e a r e a s e r v e d b y
o n e t o w e r. I n a r e a s w h e r e t h e h o u s e h o ld i s s i t ti n g b e lo w a m o u n t a i n o r
a n e s c a p e m e n t , t h e y c a n n o t r e c e i v e t e r r e s tr ia l n e t w o r k s e r v i c e s fr o m
t h e to w e r. S o , th o s e o n e s r e q u i r e d ir e c t to h o m e d e c o d e r. A t t h a t t i m e ,
w e h a d s h o r ta g e s o f th o s e d e c o d e r s a n d w e c o u l d n o t e ff ic i e n tly
c o n ti n u e . A t y p ic a l e x a m p l e h e r e C h a i r is t h a t i f I c o n n e c t , if w e
c o n n e c t a h o u s e h o l d a l o n g o n e s tr e e t a n d t h e o t h e r o n e c o u ld n o t
r e c e i v e it c o u l d c a u s e a s o c i a l c h a l l e n g e . A n d c o n s e q u e n tl y, w e h a d t o
n o w r e - p l a n t o lo o k in t o a r e a s o r p r o v i n c e s w h ic h a r e fl a t t e r r a i n w h e r e
w e c a n b e a b l e t o d is tr i b u te th e s e t e r r e s tr ia l d e c o d e r s a n d w e

20

id e n t i fi e d Fr e e S t a t e a s o n e . S o , th e f ir s t p h a s e o n th e r e - p la n n i n g w a s
t o lo o k a t in t h e s h o r t t e r m t o d e p l o y th o s e d e c o d e r s t h a t a r e s i t ti n g s o
t h a t w e c a n fr e e t h e c o s t a t S A P O w a r e h o u s e w h i le b e n e f i ti n g th e
c o m m u n i ti e s . T h e s e c o n d p h a s e w a s to l o o k in t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o r t h e
s u p p ly o f t h e d ir e c t t o h o m e d e c o d e r s s o t h a t w e c a n c o n n e c t t h o s e
p o c k e ts o f th o s e a r e a s w h e r e p e o p le h a v e r e g i s t e r e d a n d w e c o u l d n o t .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
A n d t h e t h i r d p h a s e w a s t o l o o k a t th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e r e m a i n d e r o f
t h e h o u s e h o l d s to b e n e fi t fr o m t h e g o v e r n m e n t s u b s i d y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o , t h e n t h a t th e p r o c u r e m e n t is th e
a s p e c t t h a t y o u ’v e a lr e a d y s p o k e n a b o u t t h a t U S A A S A w a s t a s k e d t o d o
that?
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

Ye s C h a ir, U S A A S A is

r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t a n d I th i n k t h e ir b e s t p l a c e to d o w i th
is s u e s o f p r o c u r e m e n t in t h is r e g a r d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , b u t in p a r a g r a p h 5 6 p a g e 1 3 y o u d e a l
10

w i t h la c k o f tr a n s p a r e n c y i n t h a t p r o c e s s , t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s i n
p a r a g r a p h 5 6 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s C h a ir, a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t
r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e c o o r d i n a t i o n o f th is p r o g r a m s , th is p r o g r a m a l l
e n t i ti e s s h o u l d b e r e p o r t in g t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t i n o r d e r f o r u s t o
p r o p e r ly p l a n a n d e n s u r e s m o o th c o o r d i n a t io n a n d e x e c u t io n o f th e
p r o g r a m . S o , i n t h is r e g a r d th e r e w e r e a r e a s o f l a c k o f tr a n s p a r e n c y
w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e i s s u e s o f p r o c u r e m e n t w h ic h a r e v e r y k e y, w h ic h
w e r e v e r y k e y to th e p r o g r a m . B e c a u s e I s h o u l d , a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t w e
s h o u l d b e a b l e t o k n o w w h e n a r e w e e x p e c t in g d e v i c e s t o b e a n d w h a t

20

n u m b e r s s o t h a t w h e n w e p la n , w e t a r g e t s p e c i fi c a r e a s k n o w i n g th a t
w e w ill h a v e s u ffic ie n t n u m b e r o f d e c o d e r s a n d s t o c k t o d e p l o y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

S o , w h ic h

is

a

q u e s ti o n

t h a t in

c o n s u l t a ti o n I a s k e d w h e t h e r i f I w e r e t o a s k y o u n o w a s a d e p a r t m e n t ,

Page 29 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
h o w f a r i s i m p le m e n t a ti o n ? A n d i t ’s a q u e s t io n t h a t y o u a r e n o t a b le t o
a n s w e r b e c a u s e y o u s a i d t h e y w e r e n o t r e p o r ti n g d i r e c t ly to t h e
d e p a r t m e n t. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s C h a ir, w i t h r e s p e c t t o t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t w o n ’ t b e a b l e t o g iv e d e t a ils . I t h i n k U S A A S A c a n p r o v i d e
m u c h d e t a i ls b u t t h e i m p a c t o n t h e d e li v e r y o f d e c o d e r s i s o n t h e
r o l l o u t o f th e p r o g r a m . D u e t o t h e l a c k o f t h o s e d e c o d e r s w e a r e u n a b l e
t o c o n t in u e w i t h t h e r o l lo u t o f t h o s e d e c o d e r s t o th e d e s e r v in g
in d i g e n c e fr o m t h e g o v e r n m e n t p o i n t o f v ie w.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h a t is w h a t y o u d e m o n s tr a t e u n d e r

p a r a g r a p h 7 8 . A m I c o r r e c t? T h e ta b l e th a t y o u ’v e p u t u p t h e r e .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

Ye s , t h o s e a r e s o m e o f t h e

c h a l le n g e s b u t th is ta b le 7 8 d e a ls w i t h a n u m b e r o f c h a l le n g e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n , c a n y o u j u s t h ig h li g h t th e m f o r
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : T h e f ir s t c h a ll e n g e t a lk t o th e
is s u e s o f f u n d i n g . T h e p r o j e c t i s n o t s u ffic i e n t ly f u n d e d . I s h o u ld
20

in d i c a t e t h a t a n d I h a v e in d i c a t e d o n t h is s t a te m e n t th a t b y t h e t i m e o f
t h e h a n d o v e r o f t h is p r o je c t t h e d e p a r t m e n t o n ly h a d R 1 m il li o n
a p p r o p r i a t e d t o d e l iv e r t h is p r o je c t . A n d a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t w e a r e
responsible

for

ensuring

th a t

t h e r e ’s

awareness

campaign

and

c o m m u n ic a ti o n to in f o r m t h e p u b lic a n d r a is e a w a r e n e s s . S o , t h a t R 1
m il li o n w a s a v e r y li m i t e d b u d g e t .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
DR

P H AT U WA N I

LASTBORN

MUTUVHI:

H o w e v e r,

C h a ir …

( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th e R 1 m i ll io n j u s t f o r th e a w a r e n e s s c a m p a i g n ?
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

I t w a s m a i n ly t o r u n t h e

p r o j e c t o f , t h e p r o j e c t m a n a g e m e n t o ffi c e a n d a w a r e n e s s c a m p a ig n a n d
a l l o t h e r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s f o r t h e p r o g r a m . S o , I w a n t to d e m o n s t r a t e
t h a t t h e p r o j e c t is n o t s u ffic i e n t ly f u n d e d t o t a k e c a r e o f a ll t h e a s p e c ts
o f th e p r o g r a m . I n t h i s r e g a r d I i n d i c a t e t h e i s s u e s o f t h e d e c o d e r s
10

b e c a u s e t h e d e c o d e r s p r o c u r e d a s p e r t h e i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m t h e e n ti ty
r e s p o n s i b l e i s 1 . 5 m il li o n a n d a t t h e t i m e , w e p r o j e c t e d 5 m il li o n o r
e s ti m a t e d 5 m i ll io n i n d i g e n t h o u s e h o l d s to b e s e r v ic e d b y g o v e r n m e n t.
T h e is s u e s o f d is tr i b u ti o n i m p a c t e d . I s p e a k a b o u t is s u e s o f p u b li c
a w a r e n e s s a n d e d u c a t io n c a m p a ig n . T h e r e i s a n e e d f o r a c a l l c e n tr e
s o th a t p e o p l e i n e v e r y c o r n e r o f th e c o u n tr y w h e n t h e y h a v e p r o b l e m
w i t h t h is d e c o d e r o r w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d s o m e th i n g a b o u t t h e p r o g r a m ,
t h e y a r e a b l e t o c a ll . I h a v e t h is t e c h n ic a l c h a l le n g e , I h a v e t h i s , I w a n t
t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th is w h o le p r o g r a m is a l l a b o u t . T h e r e is d u a l
ill u m i n a t io n c o s t . C u r r e n t ly, S e n t e c is r u n n i n g a d u a l n e t w o r k w h ic h is

20

t h e d i g i t a l a n d a n a l o g u e w h ic h is c o s t ly f o r th e g o v e r n m e n t. A n d I
s p e a k a b o u t c o n t e n t w h ic h i s w h a t S A B C i s c u r r e n t ly p r o v i d in g in t e r m s
o f a d d i ti o n a l c h a n n e ls li k e I ’v e s p o k e n a b o u t . T h e s e c o n d is s u e b u t
h o w e v e r, m a y b e I s h o u ld i n d i c a t e t h a t t h o s e a r e t h e i m p a c ts . T h e
i m p a c t o f th e l a c k o f f u n d i n g r e l a te s t o th e d e l a y s i n th e r o l lo u t o f t h e
program.

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

A n d th e r e f o r e , w e c a n n o t

s w it c h o ff a n a l o g u e tr a n s m is s i o n s e r v ic e s l e a d in g to S e n te c c o n ti n u e
r u n n in g t o n e t w o r k . T h e r e g is tr a ti o n u p ta k e d u e t o t h e la c k o f
a w a r e n e s s c a m p a i g n i t ’s l o w. I n a d e q u a t e r e a c h o f m e s s a g i n g to th e
p u b lic , l a c k o f a v a i la b il it y o f s e p t a l b o x e s t o t h e r e t a il m a r k e t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C a n I j u s t t a k e y o u b e fo r e y o u m o v e
o n , o n th a t t o p a g e 2 1 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t w h e r e y o u g i v e t h e fi g u r e s
t h r o u g h o u t t h e c o u n tr y ? Yo u g iv e , y o u h i g h li g h t t h e s u m m a r y o f
10

r e g is tr a ti o n s a n d i n s t a l l a t i o n s t a ti s t ic s .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u j u s t ta k e t h e C h a ir th r o u g h

t h a t ? B e c a u s e h e t a lk s t o t h e s l o w p a c e o f r o l lo u t , y e s .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

Ye s , C h a ir s in c e w e s t a r t e d

w i t h t h e r e g is tr a ti o n p r o c e s s i n O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 , w e h a v e s o f a r fr o m t h e
e s ti m a t i o n o f 5 m i ll io n i n d i g e n t h o u s e h o l d r e g is t e r e d o n l y 1 . 0 6 m i ll io n
a s d e m o n s tr a t e d o n t h e t a b l e th e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : O u t o f t h e o n e s t h a t w e h a v e
20

r e g is t e r e d w e h a v e o n l y c o n n e c te d 5 11 ,0 0 0 . S o , h a l f o f t h e a n d t h is is
d u e to th e l a c k o f d ir e c t t o h o m e d e c o d e r s a s I ’v e i n d ic a te d . H o w e v e r,
t h e d o c u m e n t o r t h is s ta t e m e n t ta lk s a b o u t t h e c u r r e n t a b s e n c e o f
in s t a l l e r s w h o s h o u l d b e i n s t a l li n g th e s e d e c o d e r s b e c a u s e o f t h e
e x p ir y o f th e c o n tr a c t i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 9 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a n d t h e n l a s t ly th e n b e c a u s e o f t h e s e

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
matters

that you

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around

procurement there

was

an

in v e s t i g a t io n . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? B y Pr ic e W a t e r H o u s e .
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s C h a ir, i n t h e p a r a g r a p h …
( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

I th i n k i t ’s p a r a g r a p h 5 6 t h a t y o u ’v e

a lr e a d y s p o k e n to .
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s , th e r e w a s i n v e s ti g a ti o n o f
w h ic h b e c a u s e o f n o t b e i n g in v o lv e d t h e r e w a s a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n w h i c h
w a s r e q u e s te d b y th e o ffic e o f t h e a c t in g d ir e c to r g e n e r a l t h e n .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , a n d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y w a s i n v o lv e d

in t h a t ?
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

Ye s , i t w a s r e q u e s t e d i n th e

o ffic e o f t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h e s e a r e m a t t e r s t h a t r e la t e d t o h o w
p r o c u r e m e n t w a s s o u r c e d a n d w h o b e n e fi t e d b u t t h o s e a r e m a t te r s th a t
a r e b e y o n d y o u r k n o w le d g e .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i ll d e a l w i t h t h e m n e x t w e e k .
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s , C h a ir. T h o s e a r e m a t t e r s
20

t h a t I t h in k r e q u ir e U S A A S A t o o u tl i n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n l a s tl y, i f y o u j u s t in
y o u r c o n c l u s i o n y o u r e e m p h a s iz e t h e p o in t o f l a c k o f r e s o u r c e s a s
b e i n g a c h a ll e n g e .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s , C h a ir. T h e p r o je c t o f th is
m a g n i t u d e r e q u ir e s r e s o u r c e s ; fi n a n c i a l a n d h u m a n r e s o u r c e s . A n d

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e v e n n o w a s w e s p e a k , w e a r e n o t s u ffi c ie n tl y fu n d e d t o d e li v e r t h e
p r o g r a m ; th e a w a r e n e s s c a m p a i g n I ’ m t a l k i n g a b o u t . A l t h o u g h , t h is y e a r
w e h a v e a b u d g e t b e t t e r t h a n o th e r y e a r s b u t w e n e e d t o r a i s e
a w a r e n e s s c a m p a i g n s a c r o s s th e c o u n tr y s o t h a t w e fa s t- tr a c k t h is
p r o c e s s o f m i g r a t i o n . B y e n t ic in g t h e c o m m u n i ty t o ta k e u p t h e
s e r v ic e s . H u m a n e le m e n t a s w e l l . W e a r e c u r r e n t ly, if n o t m is t a k e n I
t h i n k w e a r e b e c a u s e w e h a v e r e q u e s t e d s o m e o ffi c i a l s fr o m o th e r
d iv is io n s w i t h i n th e d e p a r t m e n t. W e m i g h t b e h a v i n g a t e a m o f a b o u t 11
p e o p l e w h o a r e e x p e c te d to r o l l o u t t h is p r o g r a m a c r o s s th e c o u n tr y.
10

S o , t h a t is o n e o f th e c h a l l e n g e s t h a t w e c u r r e n tly h a v e . T h e s e c o n d
is s u e i n c o n c lu s i o n , i n t h e c o n c l u s i o n s t a t e m e n t is t h a t m u c h a s w e a r e
t h e r e s p o n s i b le d e p a r t m e n t f o r th e r o ll o u t o f t h is p r o c e s s , w e d o n o t
h a v e c o n tr o l o v e r o r w e c a n n o t p l a y a n e ff e c ti v e a n d e ff ic ie n t o v e r s i g h t
t o t h e e n ti ti e s t h a t a r e p la y i n g r o l e in t h e p r o c e s s . A n d i t w il l b e i d e a l,
it i s id e a l to h a v e th e s e e n ti t ie s r e p o r t i n g a n d a c c o u n t in g f u lly to t h e
d e p a r t m e n t s o th a t e v e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t i s a b l e t o t a k e d e c i s i o n s t h a t
a s s is t th e p r o c e s s o f t h e p r o g r a m . A n d I th i n k th o s e a r e s o m e o f t h e
is s u e s th a t I h a v e r a i s e d in t h e c o n c l u s io n o f th is b u t w e r e q u i r e
r e s o u r c e s a n d t h e r e i s a n e e d f o r f u ll c o n tr o l o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o t h e

20

rollout process.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . A n d th e n w h e n y o u c o m e
b a c k t h e n w e a r e g o in g t o d e a l w i t h t h e n i t ty - g r it t y ’s th a t r e l a t e s t o t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a c c o r d i n g to t h e r e p o r t t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e
p r e s e n t in g w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k t o t h e C o m m i s s io n .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

Ye s , C h a ir. A s I’ v e i n d i c a t e d

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
o n t h is d i s c u s s i o n n o w is t h a t a n d r e p o r t e d , t h e p r o c u r e m e n t m a t t e r s
c a n b e w e l l- p l a c e d a n d r e s p o n d e d t o b y t h e r e s p o n s i b l e e n ti t y b e c a u s e
t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s n o t n e c e s s a r ily in v o l v e d in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t
process.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a t
is t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m t h e w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u . Yo u c o m p l a i n t h a t th e r e is n o

s u ffi c i e n t f u n d in g f o r t h is p r o je c t. Is t h e r e a c o m m i t m e n t o n t h e p a r t o f
y o u r, a s u ffi c i e n t c o m m i t m e n t o n t h e p a r t o f y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e
10

g o v e r n m e n t to t h i s p r o je c t g iv e n h o w lo n g i t ’s b e e n o n th e t a b le ? M y
r e c o l l e c ti o n fr o m t h e a ffi d a v it s t h a t I r e a d w h e n t h e m a t t e r r e l a ti n g t o
t h is p r o j e c t c a m e t o t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t is t h a t i t h a d s t a r te d . A r e
you looking for a pen?
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W il l s o m e b o d y h e l p h i m w i t h a p e n ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , w i th a p e n .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : I g o t it t h a n k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you have got it?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . Th a n k y o u , C h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

M y r e c o ll e c t io n w h ic h m i g h t n o t b e a c c u r a te . M y

r e c o l l e c ti o n is t h a t th e , t h is p r o je c t s ta r t e d n o t la t e r t h a n 2 0 0 8 . I m a y
b e m i s t a k e n , m a y b e m u c h e a r li e r I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r. B u t a s s u m i n g th a t
s t a r t e d i n 2 0 0 8 t h a t m e a n s i t ’s b e e n w h a t n o w, a b o u t 11 y e a r s . A n d a s I
u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n a n d I t h i n k t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g i n t h e
n e w s p a p e r s a f e w m o n t h s a g o to t h e e ff e c t t h a t I t h i n k s e t b o x e s h a d

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b e e n s t o r e d i n s o m e w a r e h o u s e . I d o n ’t k n o w fo r h o w m a n y y e a r s a n d I
t h i n k t h e r e w a s a s u g g e s t i o n i n t h a t a r tic l e i n t h e n e w s p a p e r t h a t a lo t
of

money

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a c ti o n .

My

r e c o l l e c ti o n o f w h a t t h e a r t ic l e s a id m i g h t b e f a u l ty. A n d o n e i s b o u n d
t o a s k t h e q u e s t i o n , w h y s o m e t h in g l ik e t h is c o u l d ta k e s o l o n g ? A n d I
k n o w t h a t e v e n f r o m t h e C o u r t p a p e r s t h a t I’ m t a lk in g a b o u t o n e g o t
in f o r m a ti o n

to

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th a t y o u

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th is

M in is t e r

of

C o m m u n i c a t io n s a n d h e o r s h e w o u l d c o m e a n d s a y, t h is is w h a t w e
w a n t to d o a b o u t th is p r o j e c t . A n d th e n w h e n th e r e i s a n o t h e r M in is t e r,
10

h e o r s h e w o u l d c o m e a n d s a y s o m e t h i n g e ls e a s i f t h e s e w e r e
M i n is t e r s fr o m d i ffe r e n t g o v e r n m e n ts . A n d p a r t ly, th a t is w h y t h e r e w a s
a C o u r t c a s e t o C o u r t b e c a u s e th e r e w e r e fi g h ts a b o u t e x a c t ly w h a t i t is
t h a t s h o u l d b e f o l lo w e d . A n d m a y b e t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e r e m i g h t n o t b e
a d e q u a t e f u n d in g n o w is b e c a u s e in th e p a s t a l o t o f f u n d in g w a s g iv e n
b u t i t ’s b e e n w a s t e d . A n d o f c o u r s e , w h a t e v e r w a s t h o u g h t w o u ld b e t h e
c o u r s e o f i m p l e m e n ti n g t h is p r o j e c t 1 0 y e a r s a g o w o u l d b e m u c h m o r e
n o w. A n d i f i t h a d b e e n i m p l e m e n te d t i m e o u s l y a l o t o f c o s t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n s a v e d . Yo u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e to d e a l w i t h a l l o f t h e s e th in g s a n d
m a y b e o th e r p e o p l e t h a t w il l c o m e w i ll d e a l w i th t h e m a n d a n s w e r th e m .

20

B u t i f y o u a r e a b le t o e n li g h t e n m e , I w o u l d w e l c o m e t h a t.
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

Th a n k y o u , C h a ir. T h e

q u e s t io n a r o u n d t h e c o m m i t m e n t o f g o v e r n m e n t t o d e liv e r t h is p r o g r a m .
I w il l s p e a k a b o u t s i n c e I ’v e j o i n e d t h e d e p a r t m e n t, C h a ir th a t b e i n g
r e s p o n s i b l e fo r th e c o o r d i n a t io n o f t h e p r o g r a m w e id e n ti fi e d d i ff e r e n t
m il e s t o n e s . Th e fir s t o n e w a s t o s e r v i c e t h e m a r k e t th a t is t o b e

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
s u b s i d iz e d b y g o v e r n m e n t. A n d in t h a t r e g a r d , w e t h r o u g h t h e d a t a t h a t
w a s t h e r e d a ti n g b a c k t o 2 0 1 2 w e i d e n t if i e d t h r o u g h … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I c o r r e c t a b o u t h o w lo n g t h e p r o j e c t h a s b e e n o n
t h e a g e n d a o r a m I m is ta k e n i n te r ms o f a r o u n d 2 0 0 8 ?
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t , C h a ir b u t t h e
a c ti v i ti e s s ta r t e d w a y b a c k a r o u n d 2 0 0 2 / 2 0 0 3 t o w a r d s th e fi n a l iz a ti o n o f
t h e p o li c y th a t w a s d o n e in 2 0 0 8 , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , it ’s i f i t m a k e s i t e v e n w o r s e .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : J a .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I : F r o m t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n p o i n t
o f v i e w, C h a ir is t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e r y t h i n g t a k e s t o o lo n g .
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

O u r s i s t o i m p l e m e n t p o l ic y.

S o , th e a c tiv i ti e s p r i o r 2 0 0 7 c o u ld p e r h a p s b e p r e - p o s t , p r e - p o l ic y
a c ti v i ti e s . B u t y o u a r e c o r r e c t to s a y 11 y e a r s fr o m 2 0 0 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I ’ m j u s t s a y i n g e v e r y t h i n g s e e ms to ta k e a g e s

a b o u t th is p r o g r a m a b o u t t h is p r o je c t . I m e a n i f t h e y s t a r t e d t o p u t
t o g e th e r p o lic y a r o u n d 2 0 0 2 , I m e a n i t ’s c l o s e t o tw o d e c a d e s n o w. A n d
20

fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g a n d fr o m w h a t o n e s e e s i n t h e m e d i a w e a r e
v e r y fa r fr o m r e a ll y th e c o m p l e ti o n o f t h e p r o j e c t . Ye s , o k a y. Yo u c a n
e n li g h te n m e o n w h a t y o u a r e a b l e to e n li g h t e n m e o n . I a c c e p t t h a t
m a y b e s o m e th in g s a r e th in g s t h a t y o u m ig h t n o t b e a b le t o d e a l w i t h .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. I n t e r m s o f
t h e c o m m i t m e n t o f g o v e r n m e n t t o r e a liz e t h e s u c c e s s f u l m i g r a t io n o f

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
t e l e v i s i o n b r o a d c a s t in g in t h e c o u n t r y, I s h o u ld i n d ic a te t h a t fr o m w h e n
w e s t a r t e d i n , w h e n I s ta r t e d i n 2 0 1 4 t o w a r d s 2 0 1 5 , w e i d e n ti f ie d k e y
m il e s t o n e s . W h ic h t h e fir s t o n e w a s to e n s u r e t h a t w e s t a r t id e n t i fy in g
t h o s e h o u s e h o l d s t h a t q u a li f y to b e r e g is t e r e d . A n d w i t h i n a s h o r t s p a c e
o f t i m e , a lt h o u g h t h e d a t e o f 1 7 J u n e h a d p a s s e d b u t w e s t a r te d w i t h
t h e r e g is tr a ti o n p r o c e s s i n O c t o b e r. A f t e r w h ic h i n th r e e m o n t h s p e r io d
w e s t a r t e d w it h th e r o l lo u t o f t h o s e d e c o d e r s . W i th i n a p e r i o d o f 1 0
m o n th s w e s t a r t e d s w i tc h i n g o ff t h e a n a l o g u e tr a n s m is s i o n s e r v i c e s i n
t h e S K A . S o , t h o s e a r e t h e m i le s t o n e s w e w e r e c h a s i n g s o t h a t w e c a n
10

d e m o n s t r a t e t h e r e a liz a ti o n ; t h e p o te n ti a l r e a li z a t io n o f t h e m i g r a t i o n
p r o c e s s . H o w e v e r, a s d e m o n s tr a t e d i n t h e s t a te m e n t , t h e r e a r e th o s e
c h a l le n g e s t h a t m a k e s u s u n a b l e t o c o m p l e te ; t h e is s u e s o f l a c k o f
resources and so forth. But where in areas where people have been
m i g r a t e d , a l t h o u g h e v e r y p r o j e c t m ig h t h a v e i ts o w n c h a ll e n g e s p e o p l e
a r e b e n e f i ti n g a n d a r e b e g i n n i n g t o r e a l iz e t h e b e n e fi t o f w h a t t h e
p r o g r a m i s b r i n g i n g t o th e m . B e c a u s e i f s o m e b o d y v i s i ts a h o u s e h o l d
t h a t h a s a n a l o g u e s e r v ic e a n d t h e o t h e r o n e t h a t is d i g i t a l , t h e y c a n
s e e t h e d i ffe r e n c e . S o , I c a n s a y fr o m w h e r e w e a r e s i t ti n g a n d t h e
s u p p o r t , w e h a v e b e e n r e c e iv in g fr o m o u r a c c o u n ti n g o ff ic e r s a n d

20

e x e c u tiv e a u th o r i ty, t h e r e is a w il l f o r g o v e r n m e n ts to r e a liz e t h e
p r o g r a m r o ll o u t . T h e is s u e o f w h e r e th e d e c o d e r s , C h a ir s to r e d i n t h e
w a r e h o u s e s i t is c o r r e c t a n d is a s a r e s u l t o f t h e c h a ll e n g e t h a t I s p o k e
a b o u t e a r l ie r. Th e a b s e n c e o f o th e r t y p e o f d e c o d e r s t h a t c a n , t h a t
h a v e i m p a c t o n th e r o ll o u t i n a p a r t ic u l a r a r e a . A n d t h e q u e s ti o n , w h y
s o l o n g ? I f I w e r e to r e s p o n d t o a q u e s t io n w h y s o l o n g , I c a n o n ly

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
s p e a k t o th e ti m e a t w h i c h I s t a r te d w i t h t h e p r o g r a m . T h a t i s t h e
c h a l le n g e s I h a v e h i g h li g h te d i n t h e s t a t e m e n t t a l k s to t h e is s u e s o f
la c k o f r e s o u r c e s a n d i t m a k e s i t d i ffic u lt . B u t C h a ir, to d e m o n s tr a t e o u r
c o m m i t m e n t r e a li z i n g a ll th e s e c h a l le n g e s w e d i d n o t s it a n d f o l d o u r
a r m s a n d s a y w e d o n ’ t h a v e r e s o u r c e s . I n t h e p a s t w e e k w e ’v e
f o r m a l iz e d f o r g i n g t h e p a r t n e r s h i p w it h th e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o r p o r a ti v e
g o v e r n a n c e s o t h a t w e c a n m a k e u s e o f t h e c o m m u n i t y w o r k e r ’s
p r o g r a m . B e c a u s e th e y a r e b a s e d i n t h e c o m m u n it i e s to id e n t i fy p e o p l e
o r h o u s e h o ld s t h a t a r e i n a n a lo g u e p l a t f o r m s o t h a t w e c a n r e g is t e r
10

t h e m w h il e w a i ti n g f o r is s u e s o f th e i n s t a l le r s th a t w e d o n o t h a v e . W e
c o u l d n o t a l s o c o m p l e t e t h e Fr e e S t a t e . W e ta r g e te d i t t o c o m p l e te i n
M a r c h . W e c o u l d n o t f in is h b e c a u s e th e r e a r e n o i n s t a l l e r s . B u t w e w a n t
t o , w e a r e s a y in g , w h il e th e s e a r e h a p p e n i n g , w e w a n t t o e n s u r e th a t
t h e r e g is tr a t i o n p r o c e s s c o n ti n u e s . B y t h e ti m e w e h a v e in s ta ll e r s , b y
t h e t i m e w e h a v e d e c o d e r s w e w i ll o n ly b e l e ft w i th t h e p r o c e s s o f
r o l li n g o u t o r d is tr ib u ti n g a n d c o n n e c t in g d e c o d e r s . S o , w e h a v e f o r g e d
t h a t p a r tn e r s h i p w i t h C o G TA . W e a r e e n g a g i n g a n d w e h a v e e n g a g e d
t h e d i ff e r e n t p r o v i n c ia l g o v e r n m e n ts , d is tr i c t a n d l o c a l . Fr e e S t a t e is a
c a s e , N o r t h e r n C a p e i s a c a s e . W e a r e n o w t h i s w e e k i n t h e E a s te r n

20

C a p e to tr y a n d e n g a g e w i t h th e s e in s t i tu ti o n s s o t h a t t h e y c a n a s s i s t
u s i n g e t ti n g p e o p l e r e g i s te r e d w h il e r a is in g a w a r e n e s s . B e c a u s e o f t h e
la c k o f r e s o u r c e s n o w w e a l s o p i g g y b a c k o n o th e r a c ti v i t ie s i f a d is tr ic t
m u n i c i p a li t y is h a v i n g e v e n ts , w e g o e x h i b i t d o t h a t b u t w e a r e a v e r y
li m i te d n u m b e r i n te r m s o f r e s o u r c e s ; h u m a n r e s o u r c e s . I t h in k t h a t i s
a l l I c a n s a y fo r n o w, C h a ir.

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n y o u r e s t i m a ti o n a s w e s p e a k n o w, h o w l o n g d o y o u
t h i n k i t w o u ld t a k e f o r t h e p r o g r a m t o b e f i n a li z e d ?
D R P H AT U WA N I LA S T B O R N M U T U V H I :

C h a ir, t h e k e y i n g r e d i e n t o f

fi n a l iz a t i o n is th e a v a i la b il it y o f d e c o d e r s . N o t o n ly f o r g o v e r n m e n t
s u b s i d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : B u t a ls o , t h e o n e s th a t a r e o n
t h e r e t a i l m a r k e t . A l th o u g h , t h e r e a r e s o m e fr e e t o a i r d e c o d e r s i n th e
m a r k e t b u t i n m o s t in s t a n c e s t h e p e o p l e w i ll b e a s k i n g a b o u t t h e o n e s
10

t h a t w e a r e a s g o v e r n m e n t w e a r e p r o v i d i n g . W h e r e d o I g e t i n th e
r e ta il m a r k e t a n d t h e y a r e n o t t h e r e ? S o , th a t ’s th e a c tiv i ti e s w e a r e
tr y i n g to e n g a g e w it h th e r e t a i l . To s a y, w e h a v e t h i s n u m b e r o f
e s ti m a t e d n u m b e r o f p e o p l e t h a t c o u l d b e n e f i t fr o m , th a t c o u ld b e n e fi t
fr o m i n tr o d u c i n g t h e s e ty p e o f d e c o d e r s . S o , t h e q u e s ti o n o f h o w lo n g
C h a ir. W e a r e d e t e r m i n e d a s d e p a r t m e n t t o e n s u r e th a t w e o n o u r p a r t
w o u ld r e g i s te r a ll h o u s e h o l d s . D u e t o r e s o u r c e c o n s t r a i n t s m a y b e , w e
m i g h t n o t m a k e t h e e n d o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r b u t t h a t i s w h a t w e a r e
t h i n k i n g . T h a t i f w e c a n a c h ie v e r e g is te r i n g t h o s e i n d i g e n t h o u s e h o l d s
b y t h e e n d o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r, w e c a n t h e r e f o r e b e a b l e t o f o c u s o n

20

t h e r o ll o u t o f d e c o d e r s w h e n t h e y b e c o m e a v a i la b le a n d t h a t w i ll b e
e a s y. W e h a v e d e m o n s tr a te d in t h e Fr e e S t a t e C h a ir w h e n th e in s t a ll e r s
w e r e th e r e b e t w e e n O c to b e r a n d J a n u a r y, O c to b e r 2 0 1 8 a n d J a n u a r y
2 0 1 9 . T h a t th r o u g h fo c u s e d a p p r o a c h w h e r e w e g o to fo c u s i n a n a r e a ,
g e t t o t h e i n s t a l le r s , l o a d t h e d e c o d e r s i n t h e b a k k ie s , i n s ta ll , t h e
f o ll o w i n g d a y th e y c o ll e c t . W e h a v e c o v e r e d t h o s e a r e a s a n d w e

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
m a n a g e d to s w i tc h o ff o n e t r a n s m i t t e r in t h e F r e e S t a t e . I f i t w a s n o t t o
t h e is s u e o f t h e i n s t a l l e r s , a b s e n c e o f i n s t a l le r s p e r h a p s w e c o u ld h a v e
s w it c h e d o ff Fr e e S t a t e a n d r e m a i n w i t h a M e tr o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : B u t in te r ms o f d e t e r m in a ti o n ,
h o w l o n g . I t is o u r w i s h th a t w e c o m p l e t e t h is p r o c e s s w i t h i n a s h o r te s t
p e r i o d o f ti m e . W e a r e u n a b l e to s a y to m o r r o w b e c a u s e o f t h e
c h a l le n g e s t h a t w e h a v e b u t if r e s o u r c e s a r e a v a i l a b le t h is i s a
p r o c e s s , w e c a n c o m p l e t e w i th in a p e r i o d o f t w o y e a r s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o , th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r D o c to r M u t u v h i fo r c o m in g t o
s h a r e y o u r e v i d e n c e w i t h u s . Yo u w il l c o m e b a c k a n d d e a l w i th t h e
b a l a n c e o f t h e m a t te r s th a t n e e d t o b e d e a l t w i t h i n r e g a r d t o t h e
p r o j e c t . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
D R P H AT U WA N I L A S T B O R N M U T U V H I : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a ir.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. C h a ir, t h e r e ’s a n o t h e r

w i t n e s s fo r t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I’ m n o t s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d s o m e t i m e t o ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Just to change places and my learned

fr i e n d is g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h a t w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s h o u l d w e c o m b i n e t h a t w i t h th e te a b r e a k ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I w o u l d p r e f e r th a t , C h a ir. Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. L e t ’s c o m b in e t h a t w i th t h e t e a b r e a k . L e t ’s

r e s u m e , l e t ’s g o f o r t h e t e a b r e a k a n d r e s u m e a t 11 h 2 5 . T h a t w il l g iv e
u s ti m e f o r th e te a b r e a k p lu s y o u r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P lu s , t h e s e t t i n g u p , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ti m e t o r e a r r a n g e t h i n g s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

W e a r e i n d e e d r e a d y C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir t h e n e x t w i tn e s s is M r J o s e p h

N o n g T h l o l o e , m a y th e w i t n e s s p l e a s e b e s w o r n in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p le a s e a d m i n i s te r t h e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n .
REGISTRAR:

P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

J o s e p h N o n g T h l o lo e .

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
20

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
REGISTRAR:

No, I don’t have.

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
REGISTRAR:

Ye s I d o .

D o y o u s w e a r t h a t th e e v id e n c e y o u g iv e w il l b e t h e

tr u th , t h e w h o le t r u t h , a n d n o th in g b u t t h e tr u th . I f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

S o h e lp m e G o d .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

( d u ly s w o r n , s ta t e s )

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir in fr o n t o f y o u , y o u w il l f in d

f o u r a r c h l e v e r fi le s c o n t a i n in g th e s t a t e m e n t a n d A n n e x u r e s o f th e
w i t n e s s ’s s t a te m e n t a n d A n n e x u r e s t h e s e a r e l a b e l l e d C C 1 9 A t o D .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M a y w e p l e a s e a d m i t t h o s e f il e s

in t o e v i d e n c e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t i s u n d e r A , it ’s h i s s t a te m e n t a n d A n n e x u r e s .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I t’s A n n e x u r e s , B c o n t a i n s

A n n e x u r e s a s w e ll , C c o n t a i n s A n n e x u r e s a s w e l l a n d fi n a l ly D c o n ta i n s
t h e A n n e x u r e s a s w e l l … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e A n n e x u r e s is t h e r e p o r t is n ’ t i t ?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir t h e r e p o r t is u n d e r n e a th fi le A

a n d th e n th e r e a f t e r th e r e a r e tr a n s c r i p ts u n til F il e D .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y a lr i g h t .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

W e ’r e g o in g to b e s ta r t i n g o ff w i th

fi le A C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e l e v e r a r c h fi le c o n ta in i n g th e s ta t e m e n t o f M r

J o s e p h N o n g T h l o lo e a n d c e r t a i n A n n e x u r e s w il l b e m a r k e d E x h ib i t
C C 1 9 A a n d t h e t h r e e o t h e r fi l e s t h a t h a v e g o t A n n e x u r e s t o t h a t

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
s t a te m e n t w il l b e , r e s p e c t iv e ly – w il l b e E x h i b i ts C C 1 9 B , C C 1 9 C a n d
CC19D.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr Thloloe the

fir s t p a g e in fr o n t o f y o u , p a g e o n e c a n y o u i d e n ti f y t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Ye s i t ’s a s t a t e m e n t I m a d e a n d

s ig n e d .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

And if you page – turn to page seven

of that same statement.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s I s e e t h a t .
Is t h a t o u r s ig n a t u r e a t t h e b o tt o m ?
I t’s m y s i g n a t u r e .
A n d i t ’s d a t e d t h e 1 2 t h o f A u g u s t

2019?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
And all the contents of the statement

is t r u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t .
Mr T h l o l o e if y o u ju s t, o n t h e fir s t

page, paragraph three it states that you were approached by the
20

in v e s t i g a t o r s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n , p a r t ic u l a r l y t o p r o v i d e a s ta t e m e n t
d e t a i li n g – w i t h th e d e t a ils o f t h e S A B C p a r ti c u la r to a r e p o r t i d e n t if i e d
a s a r e p o r t o f C o m m is s i o n o f i n q u ir y i n to th e i n t e r fe r e n c e i n t h e
d e c is i o n m a k i n g in t h e n e w s r o o m o f S o u th A fr ic a n B r o a d c a s t in g
C o r p o r a ti o n , d a te d th e 2 5 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 9 , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Page 44 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

C h a i r th e r e p o r t c a n b e f o u n d o n

p a g e e i g h t i n th e s a m e a r c h l e v e r fi le .
CHAIRPERSON:

What page?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e e i g h t C h a ir.

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M r T h l o l o e th a t is t h e r e p o r t t h a t

y o u w a n t t o ta lk to … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:
10

Ye s th a t i s a r e p o r t th a t w e c o m p il e d .
T h a n k y o u , Mr T h lo l o e i f w e t u r n t o

p a g e t w o o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t o n p a r a g r a p h s fi v e , y o u ’v e h ig h li g h t e d t h e
m a n d a t e i n w h ic h t h i s r e p o r t w a s c o m p il e d . C a n y o u j u s t h i g h l ig h t th e
t e r m o f r e f e r e n c e t h a t y o u w e r e g i v e n i n c o m p il i n g t h is r e p o r t
s t a r ti n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

B e fo r e t h a t c o u l d h e ju s t te ll u s m o r e a b o u t h i m s e l f, I

t h i n k h e h a s b e e n [ in d i s ti n c t ] m e d i a f o r lo n g t i m e ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s C h a ir, a p o lo g ie s – a p o l o g is e f o r

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f h e c a n t e ll u s a b o u t h i m s e l f h e h a s b e e n a r o u n d

f o r a v e r y lo n g t i m e a n d I s e e th a t t h e s t a te m e n ts t h a t ’s a t p a r a g r a p h
20

fi v e b y ta lk in g a b o u t t h e t e r m o f r e fe r e n c e o f a c e r t a i n C o m m is s i o n b u t
it h a s n ’ t , I t h i n k , t o l d u s w h i c h C o m m i s s i o n t h a t is a n d h o w h e r e l a t e d
t o i t , I t h i n k h e w a s th e C h a i r p e r s o n .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a i r, a p o l o g i e s .

Ye s .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A p o l o g ie s , M r T h l o l o e c a n y o u j u s t

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
t e ll u s w h e r e a r e y o u c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

I a m r e t i r e d , i f o n e d o e s e v e r r e tir e , I

r e tir e d fr o m t h e P r e s s C o u n c il o f S o u t h A fr ic a w h e r e I w a s E x e c u t iv e
D ir e c t o r b u t b e f o r e t h e n I ’v e b e e n a j o u r n a l is t f o r t h e l a s t 5 8 y e a r s
s t a r ti n g i n 1 9 6 1 a n d I h a v e w o r k e d f o r m o s t o f th e p u b li c a t io n s i n t h is
c o u n tr y [ i n d is ti n c t ] , R a n d D a i ly M a il , D r u m M a g a z i n e , P o s t n e w s p a p e r s ,
P o s t Tr a n s v a a l , t h e lis t is e n d l e s s .

I w a s a ls o a t o n e - ti m e E d i t o r i n

C h i e f o f th e S A B C ’s te l e v i s i o n n e w s a n d a t a n t h e r ti m e I w a s E d i t o r in
C h i e f o f E - T V N e w s . A s I’ v e s a i d I ’v e h a d w i d e e x p e r ie n c e in t h e m e d i a
10

in t h e la s t 5 8 y e a r s , 5 9 y e a r s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u M r T h l o lo e , i n t e r m s o f t h is

r e p o r t h o w d i d y o u c o m e a b o u t , in w h a t c a p a c i ty w e r e y o u m a n d a t e d i n
t h is r e p o r t a n d h o w d i d i t c o m e a b o u t th a t y o u b e c a m e in v o lv e d i n th is
report?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

I w a s in v i te d b y t h e a c t i n g G r o u p

E x e c u t iv e o f t h e S A B C a t t h e ti m e M i s s N o m s a P h il is o a n d s h e a s k e d
m e i f I c o u ld C h a ir t h is C o m m i s s io n b e c a u s e o f my w i d e e x p e r ie n c e i n
jo u r n a li s m a n d e t h ic a l is s u e s .

I a g r e e d to d o t h a t a n d I w a s t h e n

s u b s e q u e n t ly to l d t h a t I w o u l d b e j o i n e d b y M r Ta w a n a w h o is a n
20

Attorney from M MM Attorneys.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d in p a r a g r a p h f iv e o n p a g e t w o o f

y o u r s ta t e m e n t , y o u ’ v e h i g h l ig h t e d t h e m a n d a t e o f t h is C o m m i s s io n , t h e
t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e i n p a r tic u l a r, c a n y o u j u s t h i g h li g h t t h e – s ta r t in g a s
fr o m p a r a g r a p h 5 .1 … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e t h a t , I s e e t h a t i t ’s r e fe r r e d t o a s a

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C o m m i s s i o n o f i n q u ir y, d o y o u k n o w i f i t w a s e s t a b l is h e d in t e r m s o f
a n y l e g i s l a ti o n o r w a s t h a t t e r m j u s t u s e d b e c a u s e i t w a s c o n v e n i e n t . I
k n o w t h e – l e g a l ly t e r m e d C o m m i s s io n s o f i n q u ir y a r e e s t a b l is h e d in
t e r m s o f th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d t h e C o m m is s i o n s A c t b u t s o m e ti m e s
p e o p l e s p e a k j u s t i n fo r m a l ly, s o b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r – I ju s t w a n t
t o k n o w i f i t w a s e s t a b l is h e d i n t e r m s o f s o m e le g i s l a ti o n o r n o t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

N o i t w a s n ’ t in te r m s o f a n y

le g i s l a ti o n , I th i n k th e te r m w a s u s e d q u it e l o o s e ly.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, M r T h l o lo e c a n

y o u j u s t p l e a s e h i g h l ig h t th e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h is i n q u ir y ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

W e h a d t o i n v e s t ig a t e t h e n a tu r e , t h e

p r e v a l e n c e a n d t h e m e r it s a n d v e r a c i ty o f a ll t h e a ll e g a ti o n s a n d / o r
g r i e v a n c e s a n d /o r c o m p l a i n ts o f e d i t o r ia l, p o l it ic a l , b u s i n e s s a n d
c o m m e r c ia l in t e r f e r e n c e i n t h e n e w s r o o m i f t h e S A B C .

We were to

e s t a b li s h t h e f a c to r s a n d / o r m e c h a n is m s t h a t e n a b l e d t h e E d i t o r i a l
P o li ti c a l B u s i n e s s a n d C o m m e r c i a l i n t e r f e r e n c e a n d / o r tr a n s g r e s s i o n s .
W e w e r e t o e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r th e r e w a s e v i d e n c e t o s u b s ta n ti a t e t h e
a l le g a ti o n s m a d e .
20

W e w e r e t o e v a l u a t e t h e s u b s t a n c e o f a ll t h e

a l le g a ti o n s a n d / o r g r ie v a n c e s a n d / o r c o m p l a i n ts .

We were to review

a n d a n y o r a ll s u b m is s i o n s m a d e b e fo r e , b y a n y p e r s o n o r p e r s o n s i n
r e s p e c t to t h e a l le g a ti o n s a n d / o r g r i e v a n c e s a n d / o r c o m p l a i n ts l o d g e d
b y th e e m p l o y e e s .
W e w e r e t o m a k e fa c t u a l fi n d i n g s a n d c o n c l u s i o n s b a s e d o n t h e
e v i d e n c e , a n d t h e t e s ti m o n y t h a t w a s p r e s e n t e d .

Page 47 of 92

W e w e r e to d o

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
in t e r v ie w s , r e v ie w a ll s u b m is s io n s a n d r e v i e w a p p l ic a b le s u p p o r t in g
d o c u m e n ts . W e w e r e t o i n te r v i e w a l l S A B C e m p lo y e e s a n d /o r a n y o th e r
p e r s o n s t h a t a r e m e n ti o n e d i n t h e a ll e g a t i o n s a n d / o r g r i e v a n c e s a n d / o r
c o m p la i n t s

lo d g e d

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s

by
on

th e

the

employees.

a p p r o p r i a te

We

c o r r e c t iv e

were

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in s t i tu t io n a l

or

s tr u c t u r a l m e a s u r e s to b e c o n s i d e r e d a n d t o b e in s ti t u t e d a n d t o
a d d r e s s c o n tr o l d e fic ie n c i e s .

We were to advise the SABC Board on

w h a t s t e p s n e e d to b e u n d e r ta k e n , w e w e r e to r e c o m m e n d a p p r o p r i a t e
c o r r e c t iv e a c ti o n w h i c h c o u ld in c l u d e d is c i p l in a r y a c t i o n w h e r e t h e r e is
10

m is c o n d u c t a n d w e w e r e t o p r e p a r e a w r i t t e n r e p o r t s e t ti n g o u t , in
d e t a i l , th e m e t h o d o l o g y a d o p t e d , t h e f i n d i n g s , t h e c o n c l u s i o n s a n d th e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . A s I h a d s a i d e a r l ie r w e w e r e g iv e n t h e s e t e r m s b y
t h e t h e n a c ti n g G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e o f t h e S A B C .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Thank you Mr Thloloe and can you

s h e d l i g h t o n th e m e t h o d o lo g y t h a t i n c o r p o r a te d y o u r m a n d a t e a n d a l s o
t h e e v i d e n c e g a t h e r e d t h a t w o u l d a l s o b e h i g h li g h te d fr o m p a r a g r a p h
seven onwards?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Fi r s t w e g o t w r i t t e n s u b m is s i o n s a f te r

in v i ta t io n s w e r e s e n t o u t to a ll s ta ff m e m b e r s a n d t o m e m b e r s o f t h e
20

p u b lic t o m a k e w r it t e n s u b m is s i o n s t o th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d fr o m t h e
w r i t t e n s u b m i s s i o n w e t h e n h a d f o r m a l i n t e r v ie w s w i th t h e p e o p l e w h o
h a d m a d e w r it t e n s u b m is s i o n s . W e a ls o h a d f a c e - to - f a c e i n t e r v i e w s v ia
t h i n g s l ik e S k y p e , t e l e c o n fe r e n c in g w h e n w e c o u ld n ’t r e a c h t h e p e o p l e
d ir e c t ly b u t m o s t o f t h e m c a m e – I m e a n w e r e i n J o h a n n e s b u r g o r c a m e
t o J o h a n n e s b u r g t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e a t t h e v e n u e w h e r e w e

Page 48 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
w e r e g a t h e r i n g th e e v i d e n c e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d M r Th l o l o e , i n p a r a g r a p h 11

y o u ’v e a l s o h ig h l i g h t e d e ls e w h e r e i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a d a l l
e v i d e n c e , 5 8 s e s s i o n s o f a ll e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s c o n d u c te d , i s th a t
correct?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

I t ’s c o r r e c t , w e h a d 5 8 tr i b u n a ls ,

p o li t ic a l p a r ti e s , m e d i a fr e e d o m a c tiv is t s a s w e ll a s s t a ff m e m b e r s
c o m i n g t o t a l k to u s a n d g e n e r a m e m b e r s o f th e p u b li c c o m in g t o t a lk t o
u s , b u t a ll t o g e t h e r w e h a d 5 8 s u b m is s io n s .
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

M r T h l o l o e y o u s t a te t h a t y o u ’ v e a ls o

in c l u d e d p o li ti c a l p a r t i e s , w h a t w a s , y o u k n o w – I k n o w t h a t i n v it a ti o n s
w e r e s e n t o u t t o t h e p u b lic b u t w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e to r e c e i v e
s u b m is s io n s fr o m v a r i o u s p o l i ti c a l p a r ti e s ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t p o li ti c a l p a r ti e s

a r e m e m b e r s o f t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n p u b l ic , t h e y to o k u p t h e i n v it a ti o n t o
c o m e a n d – I m e a n to r e t u r n w r it t e n s u b m is s i o n s a s w e l l a s t o c o m e
a n d m a k e o r a l s u b m is s io n s .

S o th e r e w a s n o s p e c i f ic r e a s o n w h y w e

s e l e c t e d p o l i ti c a l p a r ti e s
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
20

Okay and the report was accompanied

b y, a l s o i n th e a r c h le v e r fi le s , b y v a r io u s tr a n s c r i p ts , w h ic h w a s
la b e l le d e v id e n c e 1 t o 1 2 , i t s t a te d h e r e t h a t t h e 8 t h tr a n s c r ip t is
o u t s t a n d i n g d u e t o M r Ta w a n a ’s la p t o p h a v i n g b e e n c r a s h e d w h o c o authored the report with you.

Is t h e r e a n u p d a t e , y o u k n o w, i f t h i s

r e p o r t w il l b e s u b m i tt e d , t h is tr a n s c r ip t i n p a r t ic u l a r w il l b e s u b m i tt e d t o
t h e C o m m is s i o n w h e n h e f o u n d th is tr a n s c r ip t ?

Page 49 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

As s o o n a s h e s e n d s it t o m e I w i ll

forward it to the Commission.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u , o f t h e i n te r v i e w s t h e y

w e r e la r g e l y c o n f in e d t o v o l u n ta r y s u b m i s s io n s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

A ll o f t h e m w e r e v o l u n t a r y.

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

As you guys did not have any

in v e s t i g a t iv e c a p a c i ty a n d c o u l d n o t s u b p o e n a w i tn e s s e s , is t h a t
correct?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
10

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I n p a r a g r a p h s 1 4 o n w a r d s , Mr

T h l o l o e y o u s p e a k a b o u t t h e s u m m a r y o f f i n d i n g s th a t w o u l d b e o n p a g e
fi v e o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t s t a r t in g a t t h e b o t t o m .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Ye s .
C a n y o u j u s t i n d e t a il , h ig h l i g h t , p e r

fi n d i n g a n d g i v e c o m m e n t a r y a s to h o w y o u c a m e o n to th a t fi n d i n g a n d
s o fo r t h ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I th i n k th e f ir s t m a j o r f in d in g w a s

t h a t in t h e f iv e y e a r s th a t y o u w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g , t h e S A B C s u ffe r e d
fr o m c a p r ic io u s u s e o f a u t h o r i ty a n d p o w e r t o t e r r o r i s e s t a ff a n d t o
20

d e f le c t t h e c o r p o r a ti o n fr o m e a c h m a n d a t e a n d it s e d i t o r i a l p o l ic i e s .
T h e e v i d e n c e w e g o t , i n fa c t , d i d n ’ t s h o w a p a tt e r n , I m e a n i t w a s ju s t
s o m e b o d y w h o w a s i n p o w e r w h o ju s t u s e i t b e c a u s e I s a y s o a n d
because you should do it.

I t w a s a v e r y fr i g h te n in g [ in d i s ti n c t ]

e s s e n ti a l ly w h e r e p e o p l e w e r e b u ll i e d , y o u w e r e t h r o w n a r o u n d a n d
t h e y w e r e p u s h e d a r o u n d a n d i t e m e r g e s i n th e tr a n s c r ip t s th a t y o u c a n

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
r e a d a n d I w a s d e l i g h t e d i n fa c t s o m e o f t h e p e o p le t h a t h a v e g iv e n
e v i d e n c e f o r t h e S A B C h a v e i n f a c t c o n fir m e d th is . I m e a n h e r e in t h i s
Commission…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I m e a n a s y o u d e a l w i th t h e f in d in g s t h a t y o u m a d e it

w o u ld h e l p i n r e g a r d t o e i t h e r e a c h o r in r e g a r d t o s o m e , d e p e n d i n g o n
t h e ir i m p o r t a n c e a s y o u s e e i t , i f y o u c o u l d e l a b o r a te a li t t le b it i n
t e r m s o f t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w a s p la c e d b e fo r e y o u w h ic h l e d t o t h a t
fi n d i n g .

Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e t o d o th a t i n r e g a r d t o e a c h o n e o f t h e m i f

t h a t ’s d i ff ic u l t , y o u c a n c h o o s e t h o s e th a t y o u r e g a r d a s i m p o r ta n t o r
10

there might be some that you regard as important but you don’t
r e m e m b e r t h e p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e a n d i t d o e s n ’ t h a v e t o b e e x h a u s tiv e
ju s t s o m e f e a t u r e s t h a t y o u w o u l d l ik e t o d r a w – t o h ig h l i g h t .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

F o r e x a m p l e a s f a r a s th e fir s t f in d in g

is c o n c e r n e d , i n t h e r e p o r t i f y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 7 0 r i g h t u p t o
p a r a g r a p h 7 3 , s t a ff m e m b e r s d e s c r i b e w h a t i t w a s li k e [ i n d is ti n c t ] M b e k i
f o r e x a m p le w h o g a v e e v id e n c e t o th is C o m m is s i o n h e r e s a i d i t w a s a
e g r e g i o u s a b u s e o f p o w e r a n d s h e d e s c r i b e d h e r s t a te . Yo u k n o w I’ m
o n a u to m a t ic l ik e I’ m a r o b o t , I’ m j u s t g o i n g t h r o u g h th e m o t io n s . I g e t
u p a t 4 h 3 0 e v e r y d a y, g o to t h e g y m , g o t o w o r k , d o e v e r y th i n g t h a t I’ m
20

s u p p o s e d t o b u t t h e r e ’s n o m o r e – n o m e a n y m o r e , t h e r e ’s ju s t t h is
a u t o m a t e d , t h i s p e r s o n y o u c a n c a l l it a r o b o t [ in d is ti n c t ] b u t t h i s i s
w h a t I h a v e b e c o m e . N y a n a M o le t e d e s c r ib e s i t , w h e n y o u a r e d e a li n g
w i t h in d iv i d u a ls l ik e J i m i M a t t h e w s , H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g , i n d iv i d u a ls w h o
a r e a l l p o w e r f u l a n d i n d iv i d u a l s w h o a t a n y tu r n w o u ld th r e a t e n to fir e
p e o p l e , y o u d o g e t d e m o r a l is e d y o u j u s t f e e l y o u c o m e t o w o r k t o

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
b a s ic a lly e a r n y o u r k e e p . A p a r t fr o m j u s t t h e b u l ly i n g a n d th a t k i n d o f
t h i n g t h e r e w a s a ls o a d e c li n e i n t h e q u a l i t y o f th e w o r k w e w e r e d o i n g .
T h a t is th e ty p e o f e v i d e n c e w e w e r e p ic k i n g u p .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u a n d y o u r s e c o n d fi n d i n g s

Mr Thloloe?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

As I s a y, w e fo u n d a n o r g a n is a ti o n

c r i p p l e d b y p a i n , a n g e r, fe a r b y fr u s tr a t io n , a n x ie t y a n d a p a t h y b y
in a t te n ti v e n e s s , d e ta c h m e n t a n d h e lp le s s n e s s . I f y o u r e a d t h r o u g h th e
10

w h o le r e p o r t y o u w i ll s e e t h a t i t tr i e s to g iv e a t e x tu r e o f liv e a t th e
S A B C a t t h e t i m e . S o i t i s n o t a d e ta il e d a n a ly s is o f li n e b y li n e o f t h e
e v i d e n c e i t j u s t g iv e s a t e x t u r e a s p e o p l e w h o w e r e t a lk i n g t o u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

N o w o n e o f t h e m a in [ i n d is t in c t ] w e

c a l l i t , t h e m a i n t h r u s t o f t h e in q u ir y, p e o p l e w e r e s a y i n g th e e n fo r c e s
must go.

Now the enforces are people who were supposed to have

b e e n e n fo r c i n g t h e p o l ic i e s o f t h e S A B C a t t h e ti m e , t h e s e a r e s e n i o r
le v e l m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e r e w a s a c la m o u r t h a t th e s e m u s t g o a n d t h i s
m u s t b e o n e o f o u r r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a n d o u r fe e li n g a f t e r t a lk i n g v e r y
20

d e e p l y w i t h M r Ta w a n a w a s t h a t a w i tc h h u n t fo r e n f o r c e r s w o u l d n ’ t
h e a l th e c o r p o r a ti o n , t h e w o u n d s a r e v e r y d e e p . I n f a c t w h a t i t w o u ld
d o is i t w o u l d j u s t d i v i d e a n a lr e a d y f r a c t u r e d i n s ti t u ti o n .

There was

s o m e e v i d e n c e t h a t- th e r e w a s t h e w o r d s u g g e s ti o n s th a t t h e A N C h a d
c a p tu r e d th e S A B C b u t w e f o u n d n o b o d y w h o c o u ld c o m e a n d s a y, I g o t
in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m L u th u li H o u s e s o w e f o u n d n o e v i d e n c e o f d ir e c t - o f a

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
d ir e c t li n e b e t w e e n t h e d e c i s i o n s th a t th e A N C h a d g o t u s a n d d e c is io n s
in t h e n e w s r o o m s b u t y o u h a v e t h e s p e c t r e o f t h e A N C h o v e r i n g v e r y
la r g e l y o v e r t h e n e w s r o o m .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e t a k e y o u b a c k t o th e fi n d i n g i m m e d ia t e ly

b e f o r e th is o n e t h a t y o u h a v e ju s t d e a l t w i t h th e o n e a b o u t t h e
e n f o r c e r s , I g u e s s th a t i n r e g a r d to t h e c a ll b y s o m e th a t t h e e n fo r c e r s
m u s t g o a n d t h a t y o u r r e p o r t m u s t c o n ta in a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o t h a t
e ffe c t, I s u s p e c t th a t w h a t y o u m a y h a v e h a d t o d e a l w i t h is t o l o o k a t
t h e is s u e o f m a y b e a v o i d in g a n y d iv is i o n i n th e c o r p o r a t io n in t e r m s o f
10

s t a ff b u t a l s o a t t h e s a m e t i m e y o u m u s t h a v e b e e n a li v e t o
c o n s i d e r a ti o n s o f a c c o u n ta b il it y b e c a u s e , t o t h e e x te n t , t h a t w h a t e v e r
it is th a t t h e y m a y b e a l le g e d to h a v e d o n e , t h a t is t h e e n f o r c e r s , i f i t
w a s a b r e a c h o f th e l a w, if i t w a s m is c o n d u c t t h e r e m a y b e a n e e d f o r
a c c o u n t a b i li ty, s o m y q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r t h a t in d e e d w a s o n e o f t h e
t h i n g s y o u c o n s i d e r e d a n d h a v i n g c o n s i d e r e d i s s u e s o f a c c o u n t a b il it y
a n d m a y b e th e n e e d fo r p e a c e i n in v e r te d c o m m a s a n d s ta b ili t y in th e
S A B C y o u m a d e a j u d g e m e n t c a l l th a t y o u w o u ld r a t h e r s a y, l e t ’s r a th e r
h a v e , r e c o m m e n d s ta b i li t y a n d m a y b e y o u m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t h a v e
t h o u g h t t h a t a c c o u n t a b il it y a n d s t a b i li ty w o u ld s i t t o g e t h e r n ic e l y.

20

If

y o u c o u l d j u s t in d ic a t e w h e t h e r t h o s e a r e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u c o n s i d e r e d
and so on?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

W e d id c o n s i d e r t h e q u e s ti o n o f th e

e n f o r c e r s r a t h e r … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

If y o u a r e a b l e to – i f y o u a r e c o m f o r t a b l e t o d e a l

w i t h it w i th o u t r e fe r r i n g to a p a r t ic u l a r p a g e i n t h e r e p o r t , f e e l fr e e t o

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
d o s o a s lo n g a s y o u k n o w t h a t w h a t e v e r y o u s a y is c o n s is t e n t w i t h t h e
r e p o r t s a y s b u t i f y o u fe e l t h a t i t ’s i m p o r t a n t to r e fe r to t h e p a r t ic u l a r
p a g e , t h a t’s f in e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I f I m a y j u s t a s s is t t h e w i t n e s s ,

t h e r e ’s a t o p ic a b o u t – p a r ti c u l a r l y a n d e n f o r c e r o n p a g e 4 4 o f th e
report.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t a r e t h e p a g i n a t e d p a g e n u m b e r, is it 4 4 ?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

44.

O h o k a y.

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

I t s ta r t s o n p a g e 4 3 w h e r e w e d e a l

w i t h e n f o r c e r s a n d i t is a – a s I s a y w e l o o k e d q u it e d e e p ly a t t h a t , w e
s p o k e to t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e a ll e g e d t o b e e n f o r c e r s a n d o f c o u r s e t h e
r e a s o n w a s , t h e y w e r e u n d e r d u r e s s b e c a u s e t h e y w o u ld g e t fi r e d ,
t h a t ’s w h a t m o s t o f t h e m s a i d , th e y w e r e b e i n g t h r e a t e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o t h e y m o s t ly a d m i tt e d h a v i n g d o n e c e r t a i n

t h i n g s t h a t m ig h t b e v ie w e d a s w r o n g b u t th e y s a id w e w e r e a ls o i n
fear?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

T h e y w e r e a ls o v i c ti m s o f w h a t w a s

h a p p e n in g a t t h e t i m e a n d e a c h o n e o f t h e m h a d a s to r y t o t e l l a b o u t
20

w h y t h e y w e r e d o i n g w h a t t h e y w e r e d o in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

For exam ple one person said I ended

u p in h o s p i t a l i n a - i n a m e n t a l h o s p i ta l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE: Because of depression as a result what
w a s h a p p e n i n g th e t h r e a t s I w a s r e c e iv in g fr o m m y b o s s e s i n s i d e t h e
SABC …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

A n d a n o t h e r o n e w o u ld s a y I a m t h e

o n ly b r e a d w i n n e r a t - a t - i n m y h o u s e a n d I w a s - I w a s fo r c e d to d o
w h a t e v e r I w a s b e i n g to ld t o d o . S o t h e y w e r e p a s s i n g t h e b u c k t o t h e ir
seniors.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Now in the end we said we need to

d r a w a li n e a t w h a t p o i n t o f s e n i o r i ty d o w e s a y th is i s a n e n fo r c e r.
T h i s o n e is a v ic t i m o f th e e n f o r c e r s . Is e v e r y b o d y d o w n th e c h a i n w h o
a c t u a ll y c a r r i e d o u t t h a t in s t r u c t i o n w o u l d y o u s a y t h is p e r s o n w a s a n
e n f o r c e r.

S o i t i s a v e r y d u b io u s a r e a a n d in t h e e n d w e s a i d

P a r li a m e n t w a s t h e r e t o o v e r s e e w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g - o v e r s e e w h a t
w a s h a p p e n i n g a t th e S A B C . T h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n - o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m m u n ic a ti o n s .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : C o m m u n ic a ti o n s w a s th e r e . T h e b o a r d
w a s t h e r e . Th e p u b l ic w h o w e r e p a y in g f o r t h e S A B C w e r e th e r e a n d
20

t h e y d i d n o t d o a n y t h i n g u n ti l t h i n g s g o t t o t h i s v e r y b a d s i tu a ti o n . N o w
t o s in g l e o u t s o m e p e o p l e a l o n g th e w a y w o u ld n o t b e f a ir b e c a u s e w e
a r e a ll g u il t y o f h a v i n g a ll o w e d th e S A B C t o d e t e r io r a t e t o t h is
c o n d i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I c e r t a in ly w o u l d n o t a t t h is s ta g e c r i t ic i s e th e

a p p r o a c h y o u to o k . L a t e r o n o n e w il l h e a r e v e r y t h i n g a n d t a k e i t fr o m

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
t h e r e b u t I c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e y o u w e r e c o m i n g fr o m b u t o f c o u r s e
the point you make about who was there, who was supposed to have
c a r r i e d o u t o v e r s i g h t i s a v e r y i m p o r ta n t p o i n t . T h e b o a r d w a s t h e r e .
T h e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e in P a r l ia m e n t o n c o m m u n i c a t io n s
w a s t h e r e . W h a t w a s i t to l d ?

W h a t d i d i t k n o w ? W h a t d id i t w a n t t o

k n o w a n d w h e n w a s i t t o ld w h a t i t w a n te d t o k n o w ? D i d i t w a n t to k n o w
t h e - t h e tr u e p o s i ti o n a n d i f it w a s to l d w h a t d i d i t d o ? Th o s e a r e v e r y
le g i t i m a te a n d i m p o r ta n t i s s u e s t o l o o k a t a ls o f o r th is C o m m i s s i o n b u t
o f c o u r s e i t m a y w e l l b e - I d o n o t k n o w - it m a y w e l l b e t h a t y o u g o t o
10

e x e c u tiv e m a n a g e m e n t p e o p le w h o a r e i n h i g h p o s it i o n s w h o m a y h a v e
b e e n a ll e g e d to b e e n fo r c e r s .
They say no.

I w a s fo r c e d .

I was threatened.

I feared.

M a y b e th e y s a y I fe a r e d Mr M o t s o e n e n g . I d o n o t k n o w w h o t h e y w i ll
s a y t h e y f e a r e d a n d t h e n y o u - y o u d o n o t d o a n y t h i n g . Yo u m i g h t g e t
t o Mr M o t s o e n e n g .

I do not know what he may or may not have said

b e f o r e y o u a n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r h e g a v e e v id e n c e . I s e e m
t o h a v e r e a d s o m e th i n g s u g g e s t i n g h e d id n o t .
He might also say something else.

H e w a s a ls o s c a r e d o r

o n e m ig h t g e t t o p e o p le in P a r li a m e n t a n d m a y b e t h e y m i g h t s a y - I d o
20

n o t k n o w - t h e y m i g h t s a y w e l l t h e le a d e r s - m y le a d e r s i n P a r l ia m e n t
s a i d I m u s t n o t a s k t o o m a n y q u e s ti o n s .
in v o lv e d is o u r M i n i s t e r.

Yo u k n o w.

Th e M in is t e r

I m e a n M r Bl o o m t e s t if i e d h e r e e a r li e r t h i s

y e a r a n d s a id w h e n h e w a s s ti ll i n th e A N C - w h e n h e w a s a n A N C M P
s e r v i n g i n th e C o r r e c ti o n a l S e r v i c e s P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e w h e n h e a s k e d
c e r t a i n q u e s t i o n s o n - to t h e M i n is t e r tr y i n g t o e x e r c is e h i s o v e r s ig h t

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
o b li g a ti o n .
The - the Chief Whip at the time and I do not know who the
C h i e f W h i p w a s c a ll e d h i m a n d s a i d s o m e t h i n g t o t h e e ff e c t y o u - t h a t
you must not be too hard.
that.

Th is i s o u r M i n is t e r o r s o m e t h in g t o - li k e

S o w e d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r w e - t h e r e m i g h t b e a l o t o f t h o s e

ty p e s o f s i tu a ti o n s e v e n f o r M P s w h o m i g h t h a v e b e e n i n c e r t a i n
P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e s .
I f t h e y s a y th a t a r e w e g o i n g t o s a y o k a y y o u k n o w a n d a s w e
g o u p e v e r y b o d y p u s h e s r e s p o n s i b il it y u p . Ar e w e e v e r t g o in g t o g e t t o
10

anybody except maybe the very top?

I d o n o t k n o w b u t I r a is e t h e s e

t h i n g s a s I s a y n o t to s a y I w o u l d n o t h a v e r e a c h e d t h e s a m e
conclusion that you have reached but just to say these are some of the
t h i n g s t h a t t h is C o m m is s i o n m u s t a ls o lo o k a t b u t a s i t lo o k s a t i t t h e s e
a r e s o m e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t w il l a r is e t o s a y w h e r e w i ll - w h e r e m u s t
b e t h e l in e b e d r a w n i n o r d e r to o n th e o n e h a n d e n s u r e th a t th e r e is
a c c o u n t a b i li ty b u t m a y b e o n t h e o t h e r h a n d g iv e r e c o g n i ti o n t o c e r t a i n
c h a l le n g e s t h a t p e o p le m i g h t h a v e h a d .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : T h e - th e p a i n f u l p a r t w i th a b u s e is th a t
t h e a b u s e d th e m s e lv e s t u r n a g a i n s t e a c h o t h e r …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

A n d it b e c o m e s m u c h m o r e v ic io u s a t

t h a t l e v e l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : S o w h a t w e f o u n d a s w e w e r e t a lk i n g t o
p e o p l e h e r e w a s t h a t th e o n e p e r s o n w o u l d p o i n t a t a n o th e r a n d s a y

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
t h a t o n e i s a n e n f o r c e r. T h a t o n e is a n e n f o r c e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

And

fi n g e r s

were

pointed

in

all

d ir e c t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

That was a target (?) we found at the

SABC.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm, hm, hm.

Ye s , n o I u n d e r s ta n d .

Thank - thank

y o u . Ye s .
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Th a n k y o u .

Thank you Mr Thloloe.

P a r a g r a p h 1 7 y o u h a d h i g h li g h t e d - t h a t is o n p a g e 6 o f th e m a i n
s t a te m e n t - t h a t t h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e o f a d ir e c t li n e b e tw e e n t h e
d e c is i o n s o f t h e - a t A N C H e a d q u a r t e r s L u th u l i H o u s e a n d d e c is i o n s i n
t h e n e w s r o o m b u t t h e s p e c t r e o f t h e A N C h o v e r e d o v e r th e n e w s r o o m .
C a n y o u j u s t e x p la i n w h a t y o u m e a n b y t h e s p e c tr e o f th e
A N C h o v e r i n g o v e r th e n e w s r o o m ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

T h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l e x a m p l e s o f t h is .

F o r e x a m p l e w h e n t h e M i n i s t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s d i d c o n s ti t u e n c y
w o r k i n K Z N - A N C c o n s ti t u e n c y w o r k . J o u r n a li s t s w e r e fo r c e d t o c o v e r
20

h e r e v e r y ti m e s h e w a s o u t t h e r e .

Now the ANC might say we never

a s k e d h e r t o th a t b u t t h e f a c t th a t s h e i s a n A N C m e m b e r is a s I s a y a
s p e c tr e o v e r - o v e r w h a t s h e w a s t o l d .
T h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d g o e s to a n A - t h e S A B C
f u n c t i o n w h e r e th e S A B C w a s d o n a ti n g a h o u s e t o s o m e f a m i ly o r - o r
a n o t h e r a n d s h e w e n t to t h a t fu n c t io n w e a r i n g A N C r e g a l i a . I m e a n i t

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
s a y s a l o t a b o u t w h a t r o le t h e A N C w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e p l a y i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : B u t t h e r e w a s - a s I s a y - n o d ir e c t l in e
t h a t s a y s t h i s is w h a t t h e A N C h a s s a id .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

W h e n - w h e n t h e A N C c a m e t o g iv e

e v i d e n c e - w e h a v e g o t t h e e v id e n c e o f M r Zi z i K o d w a . W h e r e h e s a y s :
“ U n q u a l i fi e d p e o p le a t t h e S A B C a r e r e s p o n s i b le f o r
t h e “ m y t h ” th a t th e A N C is r u n n i n g t h e S A B C
10

newsroom.

T h e s e u n q u a li f ie d p e o p l e a r e n a m e

droppers.

They

lie

about

who

gave

th e m

in s t r u c t i o n s . ”
A n d h e c o n s i d e r e d t h a t t h a t m i g h t b e h a p p e n in g a t th e S A B C
t h a t is w h y o v e r t h e y e a r s t h e y h a v e - th e r e h a s a lw a y s t h is s t o r y t h a t
t h e A N C i s r u n n i n g th e S A B C n e w s r o o m .

S o t h a t s p e c tr e j u s t h a n g s

o v e r t h e S A B C . A l t h o u g h t h e r e w a s n o le t te r th a t w e g o t t h a t s a i d t h e
S A B C w a n ts y o u t o d o t h is . N o m e m o . N o t h i n g lik e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u - a s y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t my m in d g o e s b a c k t o
t h e 1 9 8 0 ’s .
20

apartheid.

I g u e s s o n e c a n g o e v e n b e fo r e t h a t .

Yo u k n o w u n d e r

T h e r e w a s c e r t a i n ly a m o n g I w o u ld i m a g i n e v e r y m a n y

p e o p l e - B l a c k p e o p le a n d p e o p le w h o w e r e o p p o s e d t o t h e a p a r t h e i d
G o v e r n m e n t - a v e r y s tr o n g b e li e f t h a t t h e a p a r th e id G o v e r n m e n t N a t io n a l is t P a r t y - t h e N a ti o n a li s t P a r ty w e r e r u n n in g n e w s r o o m a t t h e
SABC at the time.
S o a s y o u s a y th a t m y m i n d g o e s b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
w h e t h e r t h a t i s w h a t m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d e v e n th e n o r w h e t h e r w h a t
m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d t h e n is s o m e t h i n g m u c h - w a s w h e th e r a t th a t ti m e
if th e r e w a s a - a n i n q u ir y s u c h a s y o u r s o n e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b le to
fi n d a d ir e c tly l e a k o r w h e t h e r e v e n th e n o n e m i g h t h a v e n o t f o u n d a
d ir e c t l in k a n d t h e r e f o r e n o t b e a b l e t o s a y t h e N a ti o n a l P a r t y w a s
r u n n in g t h e n e w s r o o m a t S A B C a n d h e r e - b u t i t w a s h o v e r in g o v e r t h e
- t h a t is - th a t i s - I a m j u s t s h a r i n g w i th y o u w h a t is g o i n g o n i n m y
mind as you speak.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
10

In - in fact I remember those days.

A n y t i m e a n S A B C j o u r n a l is t tr i e d t o i n te r v ie w m e I w o u l d t e l l th e m I a m
n o t t a lk i n g t o y o u …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Because

you

are

a

Government

spokesperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

N o w a t t h a t t i m e t h e c o n tr o l w a s v e r y

obvious.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : Yo u h a d a b r o e d e r b o n d e …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Running the SABC as - as Chief

E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r. Yo u h a d te l e p h o n e c a ll s fr o m t h e U n i o n B u il d in g s t o
t h e n e w s r o o m a n d t h e r e is lo ts o f e v i d e n c e o f th a t . I n f a c t s o m e o f t h e
p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n v o lv e d . . .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 60 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : H a v e w r i tt e n a b o u t th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

I t h i n k t h e r e is a b o o k o u t r e c e n tly

t a lk in g a b o u t th e t e l e v is io n n e w s r o o m a t t h e ti m e . S o t h e r e w a s d ir e c t
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE: Evidence of that.
CHAIRPERSON:

In regard to that.

Of course you would know much

m o r e i n t h a t s e c t o r t h a n I w o u l d k n o w b u t I w a s j u s t tr y i n g t o c o m p a r e
10

b e c a u s e a l w a y s o n e w a n ts t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w h a te v e r f in d in g s a r e
m a d e a r e fi n d i n g s t h a t r e l a t e to f a c ts . T h a n k s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Thank

you

C h a ir.

M r T h l o lo e

in

p a r a g r a p h 1 7 y o u h a v e m e n t i o n e d t h e r e w a s n o d ir e c t l in k fr o m L u th u l i
H o u s e . T h e r e h a v e b e e n t h r e e p e o p le t h a t h a v e h a d - w h o h a v e m a d e
s u b m is s io n s i n t h e t r a n s c r i p ts a b o u t - c o n c e r n i n g L u t h u li H o u s e . Tw o
o f th o s e p e o p l e h o w e v e r i t w a s j u s t - y o u k n o w - t h e y h a v e h e a r d a n d
s o fo r t h w h o w e r e jo u r n a l is ts i n th e n e w s r o o m a n d s o fo r t h .
H o w e v e r t h e r e is a p a r ti c u l a r w h o - C h a i r I a m n o t p a r tic u la r ly
sure.
20

T h e r e w a s a c o n c e r n y e s t e r d a y b y M s P il la y a b o u t d is c l o s i n g

n a m e s a n d s o f o r t h a n d w e h a v e n o t n o t i fi e d

th e s e p a r ti c u l a r

in d i v i d u a ls . S o I a m n o t q u i t e s u r e i f w e s h o u ld m e n ti o n t h e ir n a m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e if i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t m u s t s t il l b e fu r t h e r
in v e s t i g a t e d . M a y b e y o u - y o u d o n o t n e e d t o d e a l w it h i t . T h e w i t n e s s
c a n c o m e b a c k a t a n y ti m e i n - i n t h e fu t u r e t o - t o d e a l w it h w h a t e v e r
m i g h t c o m e o u t a f t e r t h e r e h a s b e e n f u r t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d t h e y h a v e

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
b e e n n o ti f ie d .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s i n d e e d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . J a , I th i n k t h a t is s a fe r.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : W h a t - w h a t I c a n s a y a b o u t t h a t is t h a t
t h e r e w e r e p e o p le w h o c a m e t o o u r C o m m is s i o n a n d s a i d t h e y b e l ie v e
t h a t it w a s a n i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m L u t h u li H o u s e b u t t h e y j u s t h e a r d . I t w a s
n o t a n y th i n g t h a t th e y t h e ms e lv e s w e r e i n v o lv e d i n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: They had no personal knowledge?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : N o p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir i f I m a y ju s t - j u s t e l a b o r a ti n g o f
w h a t y o u s a id M s - M r T h l o lo e - p e o p l e w h o d i d n o t h a v e d ir e c t
k n o w l e d g e b u t h o w w a s i t - I a m m i n d f u l o f t h e fa c t th a t t h e r e w a s n o
in v e s t i g a t iv e c a p a c i ty. H o w e v e r h o w d id y o u t h e n t a k e in c o n s i d e r a t io n
t h e s p e c i fic i n d iv i d u a l w h o s t a t e d t h a t s h e h a d r e c e i v e d a c a l l a n d s h e
s a y s t h i s p e r s o n w a s ly in g s a y in g th a t th e y w e r e fr o m L u t h u l i H o u s e ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : I - I d o n o t r e m e m b e r th a t o n e .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u m i g h t h a v e to d e a l w i t h i t l a t e r w h e n y o u h a v e
- i f i t is t h e o n e t h a t r e q u ir e s 3 . 3 N o t ic e s t o b e i s s u e d . Yo u m ig h t w i s h
to …
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Yo u m i g h t w a n t to d e a l w i th i t a t a la t e r s t a g e

w h e n y o u m i g h t b e a b le d i r e c t t h e w i tn e s s t o t h e p a r tic u l a r e v id e n c e

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
a n d t h e n - a n d th a t p e r s o n o r t h e r e l e v a n t p e r s o n s w o u l d h a v e b e e n
n o t i fi e d a n d t h e n w e c a n d e a l w i t h i t .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M r T h l o lo e

I

am

going

to

just

s p e c i f ic a l ly d e a l w i t h t h e s u b m is s i o n s m a d e b y t h e v a r i o u s p o li t ic a l
parties.

T h e r e w e r e th r e e p a r t i e s t h a t w e r e - h a d m a d e s u b m i s s i o n s .

N a m e ly t h e A N C , th e PA C a n d t h e E F F. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
10

A n d t h e D A - t h e D A a ls o g a v e

evidence.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e - th e D A t r a n s c r i p ts w o u l d th a t b e
c o n ta in e d i n th e e v i d e n c e e i g h t?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE: Hm.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h e e ig h t th a t i s n o t - t h a t is n o t - 0

b e c a u s e t h e r e i s a p a r tic u l a r v o lu m e o f tr a n s c r i p t t h a t is s ti ll m i s s i n g .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

No.

I t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n e a r l i e r th a n

that.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : W e ll w e w ill t a k e - w e w i ll t a k e a lo o k .
I t m i g h t j u s t b e m is s in g fr o m t h e f o l d e r s .
20

In the meantime I am just

g o i n g to b e d e a li n g w it h th e s u b m i s s i o n s t h e s e p o li t ic a l p a r t ie s .

Just

g o i n g to - j u s t s ta r t o ff w i t h t h e A N C a n d t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e PA C t h e n
t h e E F F.

H i g h l ig h t th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t t h e y g a v e t o y o u a n d i f

y o u c o u l d j u s t c o m m e n t o n t h a t . C h a ir t h e - th e f ir s t tr a n s c r i p t b e g i n s
a t t h e s e c o n d Fo l d e r B o n p a g e 4 3 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y s e c o n d f o l d e r.

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : S e c o n d f o l d e r - I m e a n - a p o l o g i e s s ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I do not see any …
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e s e c o n d f il e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e s e c o n d f il e . T h a t w o u ld b e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but …
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: CC19B.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , d o n o t s a y s e c o n d fi l e . S a y C C 1 9 B . T h e n I …
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. Th e s e f o ld e r s w e h a v e h a d
10

a l o t o f th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . W h a t p a g e ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Page 4-3-3.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE: Four?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 4-3-3 Mr Thloloe.
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE: 4-3-3?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

4 3 3 a n d t h e p a g e n u m b e r s s h e is r e f e r r in g t o

are the red ones at the right - top right hand corner of each page.
20

M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ar e y o u t h e r e M r T h l o lo e ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE: Ja.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Th e A N C h a d m a d e s u b m is s io n s u p o n

in v i ta t io n . T h a t is c o r r e c t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE: As I say they responded to the general

Page 64 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
…
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In v i t a t i o n ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : I n v i t a ti o n , ja .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A lr ig h t a n d t h e r e w e r e a b o u t f iv e

p e o p l e fr o m th e A N C t h a t a t te n d e d t h a t …
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : Ye s th e r e w e r e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: That hearing …
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : Ye s th e r e w e r e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

A n d i n a t t e n d a n c e w a s M r Z iz i K o d w a

id e n t i fy i n g h i m s e l f a s a M e m b e r o f t h e N a t io n a l E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e o f
t h e A N C . A N a ti o n a l M e m b e r o f t h e N a ti o n a l W o r k i n g C o m m i t t e e . A ls o
w i t h M r K o d w a w a s M r P u l e M a b e . I d e n ti f y in g h i ms e lf a s a M e m b e r o f
t h e A N C , N a t io n a l E x e c u tiv e C o m m i t te e , a N a t io n a l S p o k e s p e r s o n a n d
H e a d o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n s a n d t h e n w it h t h e t w o o f th e m t h e r e w e r e
t h r e e o th e r A N C e m p lo y e e s i d e n ti f ie d a s A m a t i ( ? ) , L e r a t o a n d R e f il w e
w h o w e r e i n c h a r g e o f t h e d i g i t a l m e d i a , m e d i a l ia is o n a n d p h o to g r a p h
s e r v ic e s o f t h e A N C .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE: Correct.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

20

N o w i f w e c o u ld j u s t p l e a s e t u r n t o

page 440.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d i f w e g o t o w h a t p a g e ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : 4 - 4 - 0 C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 4 - 4 - 0 , th a n k y o u .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ar e y o u t h e r e ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : Ye s I a m .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Th is w a s - w e a r e j u s t s ta r t i n g o ff w i t h
t h e - a t th e ta il e n d . T h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s t h a t w e r e g iv e n b y t h e A N C .
I n p a r ti c u l a r t h is w a s h ig h li g h t e d b y M r K o d w a . W e a r e g o i n g t o s t a r t
a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e C h a ir w h e r e it s a y s - th a t w o u l d b e l i n e 2 4 .
Where …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : W h e r e h e s t a te s :
“ I th i n k th a t i t i s a f u n d a m e n t a l b a s is a n d d e p a r t u r e
p o i n t n o t a ll p a r ti e s h a v e e q u a l s p e a k i n g ti m e in
10

P a r li a m e n t . T h e A fr ic a n N a t io n a l C o n g r e s s i n m o s t
…”
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u l d w e n o t s ta r t a li t tl e e a r l ie r t h a n t h a t b e c a u s e
he talks about it being a fundamental basis and we - I do not know what
it i s . Is i t n o t s ta t e d e a r l ie r o n w h a t h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t ? T h a t h e s a y s
is a f u n d a m e n ta l b a s is a n d d e p a r tu r e p o i n t . H e s a y s :
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : “ T h e s e c o n d is s u e i n r e l a ti o n t o … ”
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.

20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

W e w il l s t a r t fr o m t h e r e .

Th a t -

M r T h l o l o e t h a t w i ll b e t h e l i n e - l i n e 1 4 . O n t h e s a m e p a g e o n 4 - 4 - 0 .
A r e y o u th e r e ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : Ye s . I a m t h e r e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u . It r e a d s :
“ T h e s e c o n d i s s u e in r e l a ti o n to t h a t i s i n r e g a r d t o

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
t h e A f r ic a n N a t io n a l C o n g r e s s w h a t s h o u ld b e
c o v e r e d i n d e t a i l w i th o u t r e p e a ti n g w h a t i s th e r e .
A s a m a j o r i ty p a r ty t h e c o n c e p t o f e q u i ty d o e s n o t
mean equal.

I k n o w i t is a d e b a t e b u t in t e r ms o f

e d i to r i a l d e c i s i o n t h e f a c t t h a t e v e n i n P a r l ia m e n t i n
t e r m s o f s p e a k i n g in t e r m s o f t h e p r o g r a m o f
P a r li a m e n t

it

is

based

on

the

fact

that

our

c o n s ti t u ti o n a l d e m o c r a c y r e c o g n i s e s th e m a j o r i ty
a n d I th i n k t h a t is t h e f u n d a m e n t a l b a s i s a n d
10

departure

point.

Not

a ll

s p e a k i n g t i m e i n P a r l ia m e n t .

parties

have

equal

Th e A fr i c a n N a ti o n a l

Congress in most instances has the largest or
b i g g e s t ti m e s lo t i n t e r m s o f s p e a k i n g . 2 0 mi n u te s ,
fi v e m i n u t e s a n d s o o n a n d i t is d e l i b e r a t e .
r e c o g n is e s

th e

fa c t

that

we

are

not

It

equal.

T h e r e f o r e th e r e a r e t i m e s w h e r e a s t h e l a r g e s t
p o li t ic a l p a r t y w e t h in k t h a t r e g a r d le s s o f r e s p e c tiv e
le v e ls o f i n fl u e n c e h o w p e o p le h a v e s p o k e n in
t e r m s o f o u tc o m e s e l e c t o r a l ly a n d t h e S A B C a s a
20

b r o a d c a s t e r tr i e s t o g iv e a ll p o l it ic a l p a r t ie s e q u a l
ti m e o f is s u e s o f p u b li c i n t e r e s t. A t t h e l a r g e s t - a s
t h e l a r g e s t p o l i ti c a l p a r t y p o li ti c a ll y s p e a k i n g w e
fi n d

it

q u i te

u n fa ir

to

the

African

N a t io n a l

Congress.”
W h e n w e t u r n o v e r to p a g e 4 - 4 - 2 I t h i n k j u s t f o r - fo r c o n te x t

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C h a ir - a p o l o g i e s .

T h a t I s h o u l d c a r r y o n fr o m w h e r e I l e f t o ff in t h e

m i d d l e o f - a t p a r a g r a p h - a t li n e 1 6 o n p a g e 4 - 4 - 1 to b e a b l e to
connect the dots …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In t h e n e x t p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

“ B e c a u s e th e e l e c to r a t e i n

t h is c o u n tr y h a v e s p o k e n s i n c e 1 9 9 4 a n d h a v e n o t
g iv e n
10

th e

African

N a t io n a l

Congress

a n y t h in g

n a t io n a l a n d p r o v i n c ia l a n d h a v e n o t g i v e n a n y th i n g
le s s th a n 6 2 p e r c e n t t h e r e f le c ti o n t h a t o b v i o u s l y
c a n n o t b e u n d e r m in e d in t h e r e fl e c ti o n s o f t h e
e d i to r i a l i n t e r m s o f b o t h n e w s a n d p a r t ic u l a r ly th e
p u b lic b r o a d c a s te r.
d is a d v a n t a g e s

not

T h e r e fo r e w e th in k t h a t i t
o n ly

the

A fr ic a n

N a ti o n a l

C o n g r e s s b u t i t a ls o u n d e r m i n e s t h e e d it o r i a l v i e w
w h ic h w o u ld h a v e b e e n e x p r e s s e d b y t h e m a jo r i ty o f
t h is c o u n tr y b e c a u s e w e c a n n o t b e e q u a l u n d e r th e
p r e t e x t o f e q u i ty. E q u i ty d o e s n o t m e a n e q u a l . ”
20

T h e n i f w e g o t o l i n e 1 4 o n th e s a m e p a g e .
“ W e t h e r e f o r e m a k e f u n d a m e n ta l r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .
W e s a y f u n d a m e n t a l b e c a u s e t h e y a r e n o t ju s t
i m p o r t a n t.

They

are

f u n d a m e n ta l .

The

f ir s t

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w e m a k e w h ic h I t h i n k is a ls o v e r y
f u n d a m e n t a l is t h a t th e S A B C s h o u l d tr y v e r y h a r d

Page 68 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
in

case

of

the

A fr ic a n

N a ti o n a l

Congress

to

s e p a r a t e b e t w e e n p a r t y a n d th e S t a t e . W e s a y t h a t
s e l f is h l y - s e l f is h ly to th e A N C b u t w e a ls o - b u t
a ls o w i ll d e f e n d i n a r e a s w e a r e n o t t h e m a j o r i ty
p a r t y in t h e c a s e o f t h e W e s te r n C a p e . W e w i ll n o t
a r g u e t h e s a m e t h a t t h e A fr ic a n N a t io n a l C o n g r e s s
m u s t b e g iv e n th e b i g g e s t s l ic e i n t e r m s o f m e d i a
above

the

D e m o c r a ti c

A ll ia n c e

because

the

D e m o c r a tic A ll ia n c e is t h e b i g g e s t p a r t y i n th e
10

Western Cape.
principle.

So

w e w i ll e x p e c t t h e s a m e

W e w il l a r g u e - w e w i ll a r g u e n a t io n a l ly

o r w h e r e A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s d o m i n a n t .

We

w i ll a r g u e th e s a m e p r i n c i p l e a s t h e D e m o c r a ti c
A ll i a n c e o r w e w il l g o t o e l e c t io n s n o w. T h a t - t h a t
p r i n c i p l e m u s t a p p l y. ”
I f w e g o t o li n e 1 3 o f t h a t s a m e p a g e . I t s a y s :
“ T h e s e c o n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w e w il l m a k e i s th a t I
t h i n k t h e S A B C o n a c o n ti n u o u s b a s i s m u s t s tr i v e to
c o n s i d e r t h e o b je c tiv e t o o l o f c o n te n t a n a ly s is .
20

In

o th e r w o r d s t h e S A B C in t e r m s o f h o w i t p r o v i d e s
d is b a l a n c e r e p o r t in g .
o n i n d iv id u a ls .

S o m e ti m e s y o u c a n n o t r e l y

There has to be a too that guides

t h o s e i n d iv i d u a l s e d i t o r i a lly, th o s e - t h o s e w h o
r e p o r t , t h o s e w h o w r i t e fr o m a n e w s r o o m p o in t o f
v ie w. ”

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
A n d i f w e tu r n t o p a g e 4 - 4 - 6 . T h a t w o u ld b e o n p a g e - o n l i n e
eight. It holds:
“As

a

c o n c lu d i n g

point

th e

A fr ic a n

N a ti o n a l

C o n g r e s s d o e s n o t w a n t a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r t h a t is
a m o u t h p i e c e fo r t h e A f r ic a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s . ”
M r T h l o l o e w i t h a ll t h a t w a s s u b m i t te d b y t h e A N C c a n y o u
g iv e c o m m e n t a r y t o t h a t e ff e c t ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T H L O L O E : A , i t w a s p r e t t y o b v io u s t o u s t h a t t h e
A N C h a d a p a r ti c u l a r a g e n d a w h e n th e y c a m e t o m a k e th e i r s u b m i s s i o n .
10

T h e y w e r e in f a c t a s k i n g f o r b i g g e r - a b i g g e r s h a r e t h a n t h e y w e r e
g e t t in g a n d y e t s i n c e 1 9 9 4 t h e c o n c e p t o f e q u i t a b l e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o n
n e w s b r o a d c a s t a n d o n o t h e r n e w s m e d i a h a s b e e n a c c e p te d b y t h e
c o u n tr y a n d th e i r a r g u m e n t w a s th a t i f w e c o v e r a M i n is t e r f o r e x a m p l e
s a y in g s o m e t h i n g w e s h o u l d a ls o g o to th e A N C a n d g e t t h e ir c o m m e n t
o n w h a t t h e M in is t e r s a i d b e c a u s e t h e M i n is t e r w a s s p e a k i n g a s a
G o v e r n m e n t p e r s o n a n d t h e A N C a s a p a r ty a ls o h a s a v i e w o n t h e
s a m e m a t t e r.
As

I

say

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .
20

we

did

not

We

believed

take
th a t

that
-

into
we

account

b e l ie v e d

in

our

th a t

our

r e s p o n s i b i li ty w a s t o f in d o u t i f t h e r e w a s i n f a c t p r e s s u r e o n t h e - o n
t h e S A B C - u n d u e p r e s s u r e o n th e S A B C a n d i f t h is c a n b e k e p t in o n e
w a y o r a n o t h e r.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d - d id t h e is s u e o f s e p a r a ti o n b e t w e e n p a r t y a n d

S t a te o r G o v e r n m e n t a r is e in t h a t c o n te x t ? Yo u k n o w s o m e ti m e s i t w ill

Page 70 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
b e s a i d e v e n b y t h e A N C - I t h i n k - s o m e ti m e s o n e g e t s t h e i m p r e s s i o n
t h a t w h e n it s u it s t h e A N C t h e y w il l s a y w h a t G o v e r n m e n t h a s d o n e t h a t
is w h a t t h e p a r ty h a s d o n e b e c a u s e i t is th e p a r t y t h a t is t h e r u li n g
p a r t y b u t s o m e t i m e s o n e g e t s th e i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e y d o w a n t t o
d is t a n c e t h e m s e lv e s fr o m G o v e r n m e n t t o s a y w e ll t h a t i s G o v e r n m e n t .
T h a t i s t h e G o v e r n m e n t p o s i ti o n . Th is is t h e p a r t y ’s p o s i t io n .
N o w I s a y t h a t w i t h o u t n e c e s s a r ily th in k in g o f a p a r tic u la r i s s u e o n
w h ic h t h a t h a s h a p p e n e d b u t I - I h a v e t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t s o m e t i m e s
t h a t - t h a t h a p p e n s . I t is l ik e w h e n a p a r ti c u l a r p r o m in e n t m e m b e r o f
10

t h e A N C h a s d o n e s o m e t h i n g - m a y b e s o m e th in g w r o n g .
I t m a y b e th a t i t is a p e r s o n a l th i n g a n d t h e r e f o r e i t s h o u ld n o t b e
a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e p a r ty b u t s o m e t i m e s w e w o u ld a ll k n o w t h a t i f i t is
s o m e b o d y p a r t ic u l a r ly w h o i s a s e n i o r - a s e n i o r l e a d e r i t c o u l d b e s e e n
a s lo o k a t w h a t - y o u k n o w - s o m e o f th e s e n i o r le a d e r s o f th e p a r ty a r e
doing.

S o m e t i m e s n o t s o e a s y t o m a k e t h a t d is t in c ti o n b u t I - I th in k

s o m e t i m e s i t is m a d e . S o m e ti m e s i t is n o t m a d e . S o I w o n d e r w h e th e r
w h e n y o u w e r e lo o k i n g a t th a t y o u h a d a n y c h a ll e n g e s l o o k i n g a t t h a t
d iv i d i n g li n e .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T LH O L O E : A t t h is p o i n t w e ju s t d is m i s s e d i t a s t h e
20

A N C tr y in g to g e t o u t s o m e m i l e a g e o u t o f it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE:

B u t a s a n e w s m a n i f th e g o v e r n m e n t

d o e s s o m e th in g a n d t o t h e A N C t a k e s a d i ff e r e n t p o s it i o n i t b e c o m e s
news.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE:

O t h e r w is e t h e r e ’s n o p o i n t . I t ’s t r y i n g

t o g e t t w o b i te s a t th e c h e r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s o k a y. S o , y o u r in c l in a ti o n w o u ld b e u n l e s s

t h e r e i s a n i n d i c a t io n th a t th e A N C is t a k i n g a d i ff e r e n t p o s i t io n . T h e r e
is n o n e e d t o , t h e r e w o u l d b e n o n e e d t o g iv e t h e A N C a c h a n c e t o s a y
s o m e t h i n g w h e n a Mi n is t e r h a s a l r e a d y d e a l t w i th th a t fr o m th e p o i n t o f
v ie w o f g o v e r n m e n t ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : T h a t ’s t h e li n e w e t o o k M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u . T h e s e c o n d p o li ti c a l p a r ty

w a s t h e E F F. C h a ir, t h a t w o u l d b e C C 1 9 C .
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE: C?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: C, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And what page?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 912.
CHAIRPERSON: 912?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE: I’m on it.
20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u . N o w th e s e w e r e , t h is i s a

s t a r t o f t h e s u b m i s s i o n s b y th e E F F. I n a t te n d a n c e w a s Mr M b u y e s e n i
N d l o z i i d e n ti f y i n g h i m s e l f a s t h e h e a d o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n s a n d n a ti o n a l
spokesperson

of

th e

EFF

and

Ms

M a n d is a

Si b o n g il e

Mashego

id e n t i fy i n g h e r s e l f a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e E F F i n G a u t e n g . A l s o , a s a
p a r t y le a d e r f o r t h e E F F c a u c u s i n G a u t e n g P r o v i n c ia l L e g is l a t u r e . J u s t

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
t o q u ic k l y s k i p to th e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e b y M s M a s h e g o
t h a t c a n b e fo u n d o n p a g e 9 4 1 , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y. I t h i n k I m i s s e d t h a t . I’ m a t 9 1 4 . H a v e w e
moved beyond that?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 941.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh? Did I get mixed? 941 not.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s . S o r r y, I mi x e d i t . I d o n ’ t k n o w.
U N K N O W N : It s o u n d e d l ik e li n e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: It sounded?
10

U N K N O W N : L ik e l in e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : L ik e li n e ? O h , s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a t’s w h a t I h e a r d . I t s o u n d e d l ik e

nine.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m a t t h e b o tt o m li n e s . I’ m a t a w r o n g p a g e .
ADV

MPHO

RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s .

So,

th e

page

where

th e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t a r t C h a ir a r e o n p a g e 9 4 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A p o l o g i e s f o r th a t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, r i g h t . Ye s , w e a r e r e a d y.
ADV

MPHO

RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s .

So,

h i g h li g h t i n g

th e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s b y t h e E F F. I ’ m g o i n g t o s ta r t o n w h e r e o n n u m b e r
o n e w h e r e i t’s w r i t t e n n u m b e r o n e , t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s th a t a r e
s u b m i tt e d b y M s M a s h e g o .
C o n t e n t h a s t o b e o f in t e r e s t in t h e i n t e r e s t o f t h e

Page 73 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
p u b lic w h e t h e r i t ’s p o li ti c a l c o n t e n t o r w h a t e v e r. Ev e n m o r e
i m p o r t a n tly p o li ti c a l c o n t e n t o b v io u s ly. I w a n t to r a is e t h e
is s u e o f s e p a r a ti o n o f p a r ty a n d th e S t a te . T h e p r o p o s a l fr o m
t h e A N C o n a c tu a l c o r r u p t i n g , s o r r y. T h e p r o p o s a l f r o m t h e
A N C b o r d e r s o n a c t u a ll y c o r r u p t in g th a t p r i n c i p l e o f p a r t y i n
f a c t is n o t a p r in c i p l e . I th i n k i n t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n th e r e m u s t b e
a s e p a r a ti o n b e tw e e n p a r ty a n d S t a te .
I n a d d i ti o n , p a g e 9 4 8 l i n e 2 3 M r N d lo z i m a k e s t h e s u b m is s i o n s t a r t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s th a t p a g e n o w ?
10

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : 9 4 8 , C h a ir
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE: 948?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Th a t w o u l d b e a t th e b o t to m o f th a t

p a g e s t a r ti n g a t li n e 2 3 . Mr N d l o z i m a k e s a s u b m is s io n t h a t s t a r t in g
fr o m .
T h e C O O is a t t h e c e n t r e o f p r o g r a m s a n d r e s o u r c e s
in t h e S A B C . F r o m t i m e t o ti m e w h e n o n e i s m is tr e a te d b y
p o li t ic a l e d i t o r o r p r o d u c e r i n a p o li ti c a l s h o w i n t h e S A B C , y o u
20

p ic k u p a p h o n e a n d y o u c o m p la i n o r y o u w r i t e to t h e m d ir e c tl y
a n d s a y to th e C O O t h a t t h i s h a s h a p p e n e d in th e S A B C a n d
s o o n a n d s o f o r t h . T h e r e a r e c o u n tl e s s r e a s o n s w h y y o u
s h o u l d p ic k u p a p h o n e t o in t e r a c t w i t h s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t
in c l u d i n g m e m b e r s o f th e b o a r d . A p a n e l m e m b e r r e s p o n d s ,
d o n ’t

you

t h in k

i t ’s

an

aspect

Page 74 of 92

that

c o n tr i b u t e s

towards

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
in t e r fe r e n c e n e w s ? M r N d l o z i r e p l i e s , n o . T h e m a j o r i ty o f t h e
p e o p l e b e l ie v e t h a t if a n y o n e g e ts i n t e r a c tiv e l e t ’s t a k e
s o m e t h i n g e ls e o u ts id e t h e p u b li c b r o a d c a s t e r w h ic h i s a n e w s
in s t i tu t io n t h e C i t y Pr e s s o r P o w e r F M o r 7 0 2 . S u r e l y, t h e
p o li t ic a l e d i to r o r t h e s e n io r e d i t o r s o f th e s e i n s ti t u ti o n s c a n b e
in t e r a c te d w i th w i t h o u t i t h a p p e n i n g i n t h e i n s t i tu t io n ; s o r r y,
in t e r a c te d w i th a b o u t w h a t is h a p p e n in g i n t h e i n s t i tu t io n . Th e
p o i n t i s th a t t h e y o u g h t t o h a v e k n o w n t h a t th e y d o n ’ t o w e u s
a n y th in g . P a n e l m e m b e r r e s p o n d s , o k a y. M r N d lo z i fu r t h e r o n
10

a n d g o e s th a t th e y m u s t s t ic k t o t h e r u l e s , t h e y m u s t b e
i m p a r t i a l , t h e y m u s t b e fa ir, t h e y m u s t n o t b e b i a s e d . B e c a u s e
t h e i m p lic a ti o n is t h a t y o u m u s t te ll p o li ti c i a n s n o t t o c a ll
s e n i o r m e m b e r s o f t h e S A B C . N o , w e d o n ’ t c a r e . T h e q u e s ti o n
s h o u l d n ’ t e v e n a r is e . Yo u t a k e a c o m m it m e n t , y o u s i g n a
c o n tr a c t w h e n y o u t a k e th a t j o b in t h e S A B C . S t i c k to t h a t
c o m m i t m e n t , s ti c k to t h e o a t h .
A n d t h a t w o u l d b e t h e e n d o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d t h e fi n a li t y o f t h e
s u b m is s io n b y th e E F F. C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n t h a t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE:

20

T h e e s s e n c e o f w h a t th e E F F w a s

p r o p o s in g w a s t h a t a t th e e n d o f e v e r y l a t e r a l c y c l e w h e n a n e w
e l e c ti o n d a t e i s a n n o u n c e d e v e r y b o d y g o e s t o z e r o . S o , y o u d o n ’ t h a v e
t h e e q u i t y b a s e d o n t h e r e s u l ts o f t h e p r e v io u s y e a r s ’ e l e c ti o n s . A g a i n ,
f o r u s t h is w a s a n o t h e r w a y o f tr y in g t o g e t m il e a g e o u t o f t h e S A B C .
T h e y w e r e s a y i n g t h e c o n c e p t o f e q u i ty is n o t f a ir to o th e r p o li ti c a l
p a r t i e s . E v e r y b o d y m u s t s t a r t f r o m s c r a tc h . Th e y a r e a l l e q u a l. S o , t h e y

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
a l l n e e d to g e t e q u a l t i m e fr o m t h e S A B C . B u t a g a in , t h e S A B C e d i t o r i a l
p o li c i e s a r e v e r y c l e a r a b o u t w h a t s h o u l d b e h a p p e n i n g . Th e IC A S A
r e g u la t io n s a r e v e r y c l e a r a b o u t h o w y o u c o v e r e l e c t io n s a n d t h e I E C
a ls o h a s r e g u l a ti o n s d u r i n g e l e c t io n s . A n d o n e o f t h e p r i n c ip l e s o f a l l
t h e s e o r g a n iz a t i o n s is t h a t th e r e i s e q u i ty a n d th a t e q u i ty is c a l c u la t e d
o n t h e b a s i s o f t h e p r e v i o u s y e a r s ’ e l e c t i o n s o r t h e p r e v i o u s e l e c ti o n s
t h a t th e y w e r e . S o , a g a i n w e d i d n ’ t t a k e th is a r g u m e n t v e r y s e r io u s ly. It
w a s a n o th e r g a m e o f p o li t ic s t h a t t h e y w e r e p l a y i n g w i th u s . T h e y w e r e
n o t s a y i n g to u s th e r e is p o l it ic a l i n te r f e r e n c e a t t h e S A B C a n d t h i s i s
10

t h e e v id e n c e w e h a v e f o r i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l , y o u m a y h a v e h a d ; y o u p r o b a b ly h a v e h a d m u c h
m o r e e x p o s u r e th a n I h a v e h a d i n r e g a r d t o t h o s e d e b a te s . S o ,
w h a t e v e r I m i g h t s a y n o w is n o t n e c e s s a r ily a s w e ll i n f o r m e d b y th e
d e b a te s f o r a n d a g a i n s t o n s o m e o f t h e s e i s s u e s . B u t I d o , I k i n d o f s e e
w h e r e t h e E F F ’s s u g g e s t io n w h e r e t h e E F F c o m e s fr o m w h e n th e y m a k e
t h a t s u g g e s t i o n . I a s k m y s e lf t h e q u e s ti o n , i n P a r l i a m e n t t h e m a j o r i ty
p a r t y i s a lr e a d y a ll o c a t e d a lo t o f ti m e . S o , t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y m i g h t
a r g u e t h a t t h e y a r e e n ti tl e d to h a v e m o r e ti m e i n o r d e r t o te ll t h e
p o p u l a c e w h a t t h e y a r e d o in g a b o u t b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e b e e n g iv e n t h e

20

p o w e r t o g o v e r n . T h e y h a v e a l o t o f t i m e t o d o t h a t w h e n th e y s p e a k in
P a r li a m e n t . T h e y h a v e b e e n g iv e n m o r e t i m e . A p a r t fr o m th a t , t h e y
h a v e m a y b e a s g o v e r n m e n t n o w w e g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n o f
s e p a r a t in g b e tw e e n p a r ty a n d g o v e r n m e n t y o u k n o w. T h e y h a v e a l o t o f
r e s o u r c e s a n d t i m e o u ts id e o f P a r li a m e n t t o g o t o t h e p e o p le o v e r t h e
fi v e - y e a r c y c l e o f e le c ti o n s a n d t e l l th e p e o p l e w h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
d o i n g a n d t h e y h a v e m u c h m o r e r e s o u r c e s th a n t h e o p p o s it i o n p a r t ie s .
A g a i n , I j u s t e m p h a s iz e I’ m n o t ta lk in g w h e r e o n e is n o t s e p a r a t in g
b e t w e e n p a r t y a n d g o v e r n m e n t b u t t h e y w o u l d b e t a l k i n g a b o u t th e
s a m e a c h i e v e m e n t s w h e t h e r it ’s g o v e r n m e n t o r t h e r u l i n g p a r ty o v e r t h e
fi v e - y e a r p e r i o d . S o , my q u e s t io n i s , w h y w h e n t h e y a r e a l l c o n te s ti n g
e l e c ti o n s m u s t t h e r u li n g p a r t y s ti ll g e t m o r e t i m e t h a n t h e o t h e r
p a r t i e s ? W h a t is w r o n g w i t h s a y i n g , e q u it y d ic t a te s t h a t t h e r e m u s t
c o m e a ti m e w h e n a ll t h e p a r t ie s i f i t c o m e s t o fo r e x a m p le th e p u b l ic
b r o a d c a s t e r, t h e y m u s t b e g iv e n e n o u g h ti m e , e q u a l t i m e a n d th e y m u s t
10

m a k e u s e o f i t ? B e c a u s e i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t i f y o u ’ r e g o i n g to k e e p o n
g iv i n g t h e o p p o s i t io n p a r ty, s m a ll e r p a r ti e s li t tl e ti m e a n d g iv i n g t h e
m a jo r i ty p a r ty t h e r u li n g p a r t y m o r e ti m e t h a t m i g h t b e w o r k in g a g a in s t
d e m o c r a c y. B e c a u s e y o u a r e s u p p r e s s in g o r m a k i n g i t d i ffic u lt f o r t h e
s m a ll e r p a r ti e s t o r is e a n d c o m p e t e p r o p e r ly w i t h t h e r u li n g p a r ty. A n d
s o , a s I s i t h e r e a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w i f I m i g h t c h a n g e m y m i n d . I’ m j u s t
s h a r i n g w i t h y o u w h a t ’s g o in g o n in my m in d n o w. I h a v e a f e e li n g t h a t I
d o n ’t s e e w h y t h e r e is a j u s t i fic a ti o n fo r t a lk in g p a r tic u la r ly a b o u t t h e
ti m e w h e n t h e r e a r e e le c ti o n s c o m i n g a n d t h e y s t a r t c a m p a i g n i n g .
M a y b e l e t ’s l e a v e o u t d u r i n g o t h e r t i m e s , j u s t t h a t ti m e th a t I d o n ’ t s e e

20

w h y th e y s h o u l d n ’ t b e p u t o n a n e q u a l fo o ti n g in o r d e r to e n s u r e t h a t
t h e c i tiz e n s a s m u c h a s a b o u t e a c h o f t h e m a s p o s s ib l e w it h o u t g i v i n g
a n y o n e a n a d v a n ta g e . B e c a u s e t h e b r o a d c a s t e r a n d a n y o b j e c t iv e b y
s t a n d I s h o u l d b e s a y i n g , w e ju s t w a n t d e m o c r a c y t o w o r k a n d w e w a n t
it t o b e s tr e n g t h e n e d . W h o e v e r w i n s m u s t w in o n t h e b a s is o f e q u a l
c h a n c e s . N o w, t h e r e m i g h t b e a r g u m e n t a b o u t e q u a l c h a n c e s b u t i t j u s t

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
s e e m s t h a t i f y o u g iv e t h e r u li n g p a r t y m o r e ti m e e v e n t h e n o u t s i d e o f
P a r li a m e n t y o u a r e u n fa ir ly d is a d v a n t a g i n g th e o t h e r p a r t ie s .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : U n f o r tu n a t e ly, Mr C h a ir m a n d e m o c r a c y
is e x t r e m e ly … ( i n d i s t i n c t) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . N o , I a g r e e a n d b u t I w o u ld l ik e to h e a r

w h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e t o s a y a b o u t s o m e o f t h e s e th o u g h ts t h a t c o m e t o
my mind without me having been exposed to many views on this
s u b j e c t . B u t y o u h a v e h a d , y o u p r o b a b ly h a v e h a d a l o t o f e x p o s u r e i n
t h e m e d i a a n d t h r o u g h th e in q u ir y to l o o k a t t h a t a n d th e n t h e r e f o r e ,
10

y o u m i g h t b e a b le to s a y, w e l l w e c o n s i d e r e d a ll o f t h o s e . O r th o s e
a r g u m e n ts h a v e b e e n c o n s i d e r e d i n li t e r a tu r e a n d t h e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t
a n s w e r s . O n e o f t h e a n s w e r s i s t h i s , o n e o f th e a n s w e r s is t h a t. A n d
w h e n y o u l o o k a t e v e r y t h i n g t h e m a j o r i ty, m o s t p e o p l e t h in k t h i s is th e
way to go.
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : I t h in k th e r e a s o n i n 9 4 S o u t h A fr ic a n s
s e t tl e d fo r t h is s y s t e m o f e q u i t y i s b e c a u s e I m e a n i n 9 4 e l e c ti o n s i t
w a s e q u a l f o r e v e r y b o d y. A n d t h e n a f te r th e e l e c ti o n s t h e n y o u s a i d t h e
m a jo r i ty o f S o u t h A fr ic a n s th i n k t h is w a y. S o , i f a t o n e s t a g e y o u s ta r t
d i m i n i s h in g w h a t th e y h a v e a c h i e v e d a s a p a r ty y o u a r e n o w p l a y i n g

20

G o d o v e r w h a t th e y d o o r d o n ’ t d o . S o , t h e m e a s u r e th a t y o u c a n u s e
t h a t i s f a ir is , t h is is h o w y o u p e r f o r m e d . T h e r e f o r e , w e w il l a ll o c a t e y o u
ti m e e q u iv a l e n t to w h a t y o u h a v e a c h ie v e d . N o w, i f a n e w p a r t y c o m e s
o n li n e a n d it is b r i n g in g fr e s h t h i n g s i t ’s n e w s , i t ’s e x c i ti n g t h e n th e y
w i ll g e t th e s u p p o r t t h a t th e y n e e d f r o m t h e m e d i a g e n e r a l ly. B u t i f i t ’s
a n o t h e r r u n - o f- t h e - m ill p a r ty t h a t s a y s w e t h i n k w e s h o u ld g e t a b ig g e r

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
s h a r e w e a r e s u p p r e s s i n g t h e v i e w s o f t h e m a jo r i ty o f t h e c o u n t r y.
T h a t ’s t h e p r o b l e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll , e x c e p t t h a t f o r i f w e t a lk a b o u t th e g e n e r a l

e l e c ti o n t h a t w e h a d i n M a y th is y e a r. I f y o u s a id , w e ll w i t h e ff e c t fr o m
m a y b e M a r c h , t h e la s t t w o m o n t h s b e fo r e th e e l e c ti o n w e w i ll g iv e
e q u a l t i m e t o a l l th e p o li t ic a l p a r ti e s . Th e f a c t o f th e m a t t e r m a y w e ll b e
t h a t o v e r t h e p a s t f o u r y e a r s 1 0 m o n t h s y o u h a v e g iv e n t h e m a j o r i ty
p a r t y t h a t m o r e t i m e th a n o t h e r s b u t y o u a r e s e e k i n g n o w t o a t le a s t tr y
t o s t r ik e s o m e b a la n c e . Yo u th i n k e v e n th e n t h e r e w o u l d s ti ll b e a
10

le g i t i m a te c o m p l a in t t o s a y, n o t w i t h s ta n d i n g t h e f a c t t h a t f o r t h e p a s t
f o u r a n d a h a l f y e a r s t h e y h a d a ll t h i s ti m e th e r e ’ ll s t il l b e a l e g i t i m a te
c o n c e r n t o s a y n o , e v e n t h a t m o n t h th a t l a s t t w o m o n t h s th e y m u s t s ti ll
have?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : A s I s a y, t h a t ’s t h e s o lu t io n w e fo u n d i n
1 9 9 4 a n d a s I s a y, t h e I E C i n it s r e g u la ti o n s e v e r y t i m e t h e r e is a n
e l e c ti o n th e y in s is t o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : E q u i ty c o v e r a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t m a y w e ll b e t h a t it is e q u i t a b l e b u t I j u s t h a v e

20

t h o s e q u e s t io n s in m y m i n d b u t I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g . Th a n k
you.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u . T h e n e x t p a r ty w o u l d b e th e
PA C . T h a t w o u l d b e f o u n d o n p a g e 1 0 7 1 . A r e y o u t h e r e M r T lh o l o e ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : J a , I ’v e g o t i t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Thank you.

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m t e m p t e d to a s k Mr T lh o l o e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s n o
p r o b le m w h e th e r y o u w e r e r e c e iv in g s u b m is s i o n s f r o m t h e t r u e PA C
fr o m t h e g e n u i n e l e g i ti m a t e PA C .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : T h e q u e s ti o n is , w h ic h PA C ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, anyway thanks.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

In a t t e n d a n c e t o t h i s in q u ir y w a s Mr

L u t h a n d o M a b in d a w h o id e n t i fi e d h i m s e l f a s a l e a d e r o f t h e PA C a n d
m e m b e r o f P a r li a m e n t . Al s o , w it h M r M a b i n d a w a s M r Vu s i N t s o t e ts i
id e n t i fi e d a s a m e m b e r o f t h e n a ti o n a l e x e c u tiv e c o m m i t t e e o f th e PA C
10

a n d C o m r a d e G a n c h o i d e n t i fi e d a s a m e m b e r o f t h e n a ti o n a l e x e c u t iv e
c o m m i t t e e o f t h e PA C a s w e l l . A t a l a te r s t a g e , t h e r e w a s a ls o a M r
P u w e w h o s e p o s i t io n is n o t c le a r ly i d e n t if ie d i n th e t r a n s c r i p t b u t i t
s e e m s li k e h e w a s a s s u m e d t h a t h e w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e PA C a s w e ll .
O n p a g e , if I c o u l d j u s t d ir e c t th e C h a ir t o p a g e 1 0 8 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : J u s t a s h o r t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w h a t w a s
e n c a p s u la t e d i n t h e s e s u b m is s i o n s . O n li n e 2 0 i t s t a te s t h a t,
T h e la s t p o i n t t h a t w e a r e r a i s i n g a s a w a y f o r w a r d i s
t h a t o n c e t h e r e ’s a n e le c t i o n d a t e t h a t h a s b e e n p r o n o u n c e d

20

a n d a p o li t ic a l p a r ty h a s b e e n r e g is t e r e d , a l l p a r t ie s s h o u ld b e
c o v e r e d e q u a lly.
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : T h a t’s t h e s a m e a r g u m e n t t h a t t h e E F F
h a d r a is e d a n d f o r t h e s a m e r e a s o n w e d i d n ’ t t a k e th e E F F ’s p o s i ti o n . I t
q u i te f e l l o u ts id e o u r m a n d a te . W e w e r e s u p p o s e d to c h e c k i f t h e r e is in
f a c t p o l i tic a l i n te r f e r e n c e i n t h e d e c is i o n - m a k i n g a t t h e S A B C .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y o u w e r e n o t t h e r e t o m a k e a n y r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s
t o c h a n g e e x is ti n g p o l ic i e s a n d s o o n a n d r e g u la t io n s ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : W e d i d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o n t h a t
one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : I f y o u g o t o t h e r e p o r t , Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE:

I ’ m a l m o s t t h e r e M r C h a ir m a n . I f y o u

g o t o t w o p a r a g r a p h 2 2 0 i n th e A b u n d l e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t p a g e is th a t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE: Page 59.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 5 9 ? Ye s .
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE: It says,
T h e C o m m i s s io n a c c e p ts t h a t a n y p e r s o n , o r g a n iz a ti o n o r in s t i tu t io n i n
t h e c o u n tr y h a s a r i g h t t o in f lu e n c e c o v e r a g e b y t h e S A B C . B u t t h e
d e c is i o n o n w h a t t o c o v e r a n d h o w t o c o v e r i t r e s ts w i th t h e e d i t o r i a l
s t a ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : A n d c o u l d I b e e x c u s e d M r C h a ir m a n ?

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . D o y o u n e e d u s t o ta k e a n a d jo u r n m e n t? N o ,

o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : T h e r e a r e to o m a n y d o c u m e n t s i n f r o n t
of me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M r T l h o lo e , c a n I a s s is t ? W h a t p e r h a p s

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
a r e y o u l o o k in g fo r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u i n d ic a te t o h e r w h a t y o u ’r e lo o k i n g f o r.
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE:

T h e … ( i n d is ti n c t) t h a t s a y s t h e

newsroom.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I n th e r e p o r t ?
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : I f y o u l o o k a t in t h e in d e x .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE: Page?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s a s e c ti o n t h a t d e a ls w i t h t h e n e w s r o o m ?
10

M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : J a , i t’s h e a d li n e d n e w s r o o m .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a t s t a r ts o n p a g e , i t ’s 2 4 o f th e

r e p o r t b u t I w il l te ll y o u t h e p a g e n u m b e r i ts e lf t h e p a g i n a t e d n u m b e r.
T h a t w o u ld b e p a g e 3 1 .
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE: 31.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , t h e n e w s r o o m .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : N o w, i f y o u g o to 7 7 , p a r a g r a p h 7 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOSEPH NONG TLHOLOE:

Th e p a r ti c i p a n t s a r e g u i d e d b y t h e

c o r p o r a t io n ’s e d i to r i a l p o lic i e s w h i c h a r e i n te n d e d to h e lp t h e e d i to r i a l
20

s t a ff n e g o ti a te d i ffic u lt e d it o r ia l is s u e s a n d d e c is i o n s s o t h a t d i s ti n c ti v e
a n d c o m p e l li n g a n d s o m e ti m e s c o n tr o v e r s ia l p r o g r a m s c a n b e m a d e
w h il e m a in t a i n i n g th e h i g h e s t e th ic a l a n d e d i t o r i a l s ta n d a r d s .
T h a t a lr e a d y e x is t s i n t h e S A B C ’s e d i t o r ia l p o lic i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J O S E P H N O N G T L H O L O E : I t a l s o g o e s o n t o s a y,

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
T h r o u g h th is p o li c y, th e S A B C i s w e ll- p o s i ti o n e d a n d
u n m a t c h e d i n th e m a r k e t t o m e e t t h e c h a ll e n g e o f t e l li n g t h e
S o u th

A f r ic a n

story

w i th

compassion,

determination

and

r e s o l u ti o n w h il e c r e a ti n g f o r u m s w h e r e S o u th A f r ic a n s fr o m
e v e r y w a lk o f l i fe c a n c o m m u n i c a t e i d e a s a b o u t th e ir c o m m o n
future.
S o , th e v a l u e s th a t th e S A B C s h o u ld b e u p h o l d i n g a r e a lr e a d y in p l a c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . W e l l, I m e a n I r a is e d , I s h a r e d w i th y o u

w h a t w a s g o in g o n i n m y m in d in r e la t io n to t h i s is s u e o f e q u i t y. B u t
10

p r o b a b ly i t ’s s o m e th i n g th a t t h e C o m m i s s io n h a s n o b u s i n e s s d e a li n g
w i t h w h e t h e r d u r in g e le c ti o n s w h a t p a r t i e s a r e g iv e n in t e r ms o f a i r t i m e
and so on and so on. But and we have to recognize our boundaries.
T h e C o m m i s s i o n m u s t r e c o g n iz e i ts b o u n d a r i e s a n d l e a v e is s u e s t h a t
m u s t b e d e a l t w i t h b y o t h e r i n s ti t u t i o n s a n d o t h e r b o d i e s f o r th o s e
in s t i tu t io n s to d e a l w i t h . B u t i t’s s o m e t h i n g t h a t o c c u r r e d in m y m i n d a s
y o u w e r e ta lk in g . T h a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e e n d e d o ff o n

p a r a g r a p h 1 7 a n d t h e n w e w e n t t o t h e tr a n s c r i p ts , s o ju s t t o g e t b e c k
o n t o t r a c k o n to y o u r m a i n s ta t e m e n t s o w e ’r e g o in g t o g o to t h e
20

s t a te m e n t , th a t w o u l d b e in fi l e A o n p a g e s ix , p a r a g r a p h 1 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t’s g o i n g b a c k t o C C 1 9 A .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

H a v e y o u g o t t h e c o r r e c t fi le ?

C C 1 9 A p a g e s ix .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

P a r a g r a p h 1 8 , w e ’r e c o n ti n u i n g w i t h

y o u r fi n d i n g s .

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e s ix o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t , th e r e d f ig u r e , t h e r e d

n u m b e r a t th e to p .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Page?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

S ix .

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e s ix o k a y.

And paragraph 18.

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Are you there?

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Ye s .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

C a n y o u j u s t r e a d o u t t h e f o ll o w i n g

fi n d i n g t h a t w a s c o n c l u d e d in t h e r e p o r t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Line 18 or paragraph 18?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Paragraph 18.

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

“ T h e e v id e n c e s h o w s t h a t fr o m t h e

y e a r 2 0 1 2 u p u n ti l t h e y e a r 2 0 1 7 S A B C e x e c u t iv e s to o k
in s t r u c t i o n s f r o m p e o p l e w i t h n o a u t h o r it y i n t h e n e w s r o o m ,
for

e x a m p l e w e q u o t e , t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e S A B C B o a r d o r t h e
C o m m u n i c a t io n s M i n is t e r.

T h e e x e c u ti v e s t h u s f a i le d to

e x e c u te th e i r d u t ie s in te r m s o f t h e e d i t o r ia l p o li c i e s w h ic h I
ju s t

q u o te d

n o w.

The

C o m m i s s io n

f u r th e r

fo u n d

that

N o n t h a n d o M a s e k o S e b o l e l o D i tl h a k a n y a n e a n d N y a n a M o le t e

20

w e r e p iv o t a l to th e e x e c u t io n o f i n s tr u c t io n s fr o m H l a u d i
M o ts o e n e n g , J i m i M a t t h e w s a n d S i m o n N d e b e l e .
succumbed
immediate

because

of

threats

of

d i s mi s s a l

fr o m

Th e y
the

s u p e r i o r s t h a t’s th e e n fo r c e r s w e w e r e t a l k in g a b o u t

e a r l ie r ” .

Page 84 of 92

6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , d o y o u w a n t h i m t o r e a d t h e r e s t o f t h e

paragraphs?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 C h a ir.

O k a y.

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

“ O u r la s t r e c o m m e n d a t io n w h ic h w e

t h i n k is v e r y k e y t o t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e S A B C is th a t t h e G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u t iv e s h o u ld n o t b e d e s i g n a t e d a s a n E d i to r i n C h i e f , th a t
s y s te m w h ic h w e i n h e r i t e d fr o m t h e B B C i s i n a p p r o p r i a te f o r o u r
c ir c u m s ta n c e s ” .
N o w w h a t h a p p e n s is t h a t t h e B B C D ir e c t o r ’s G e n e r a l a r e

10

p e o p l e w h o h a v e c o m e u p t h e r a n k s fr o m p r o d u c i n g p r o g r a m m e s
e tc e t e r a r i g h t u p t o t h e p o i n t w h e r e t h e y n o w b e c o m e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l ,
s o th e y a r e [ i n d is ti n c t ] i n t h e p r o d u c t io n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e y a r e j o u r n a lis ts ?

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Ye s .
N o w w h a t w e h a v e i n S o u t h A fr ic a is

t h a t w e g e t a b u s in e s s m a n to c o m e a n d r u n t h e S A B C w h o i s n o t
f a m ili a r w it h t h e w o r ld o f j o u r n a li s m , s o it ’s u n fa ir t o m a k e h i m t h e
E d it o r in C h i e f.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

S o w e r e c o m m e n d e d th a t t h e G r o u p

E x e c u t iv e n e w s s h o u ld b e c o m e t h e p i n n a c le o f t h e u p w a r d [i n d i s t i n c t ]
s y s te m .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u , M r T h l o lo e y e s t e r d a y w e

h e a r d t h e e v id e n c e o f M s P i ll a y a n d M s M b e k i b o t h [i n d i s t i n c t ] fo r t h e ir

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
d is s a t is f a c ti o n w i t h th e o u t c o m e o f t h e r e p o r t .

W e ’ ll s t a r t w i t h M s

P il l a y, M s P i ll a y h i g h li g h te d t h e f a c t t h a t p e o p l e m a d e s u b m i s s i o n s
u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th e i r n a m e s w o u l d r e m a i n a n o n y m o u s a n d
t h is w a s n o t p r o o f a f te r th e y h a v e t e s t i fi e d , c a n y o u j u s t c o m m e n t o n
that?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

A t t h e e n d o f o u r i n q u ir y M r Ta w a n a

a n d m y s e l f d e b a te d th is is s u e s , d o w e n o w s e n d e a c h tr a n s c r i p t t o e a c h
o f th e p a r tic i p a n ts t o s a y c a n w e p u b li s h t h is o r n o t a n d w e f e l t t h a t , a )
it w o u ld d e l a y t h e p r o c e s s a n d b ) a l m o s t a l l t h e i n f o r m a t io n w e r e c e iv e d
10

is a lr e a d y in t h e p u b lic d o m a i n , i t w a s n ’ t a s i f w e ’r e d i g g i n g u p n e w
t h i n g s . S o w e d e c i d e d w e a r e g o i n g a h e a d a n d p u b lis h in g t h e n a m e s
a n d t h e p e o p l e w h e r e t h e r e w a s n o – w e d i d n ’ t a n tic ip a t e a n y t h r e a t to
t h e p e o p l e w h o g a v e e v i d e n c e t o u s . N o w th e r e w e r e t w o C o m m i s s io n s
a p p o i n t e d a t t h e s a m e ti m e , th e o n e w a s a s e x u a l h a r a s s m e n t
C o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e o t h e r t h e E d i to r i a l in t e r fe r e n c e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u p u t it lik e t h a t i t ’s s o u n d s i n a p p r o p r i a te

when you say it was a sexual harassment Commission, it was a
C o m m i s s i o n t o l o o k i n to a l l e g a ti o n s o f s e x u a l h a r a s s m e n t s , y e s .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
20

N o w t h e c o n f id e n ti a l i ty t h e r e is

u n d e r s t a n d a b l e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s li k e it s j o b w a s l ik e t o c a r r y o u t s e x u a l

h a r a s s m e n t, s o t h a t ’s w h y I’ m s a y i n g i t s o u n d s in a p p r o p r ia t e .
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

N o w t h e r e t h e c o n fi d e n ti a li ty w a s

a p p r o p r i a t e b e c a u s e o f t h e n a t u r e o f t h e s u b j e c t w e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h
a n d w e th o u g h t w e c o u ld p u b li s h w i th o u t a n y fe a r o f r is k in g a n y b o d y ’s

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
li fe o r i n c o m e o r w h a te v e r s o w e d e c id e d i n t h e e n d , le t u s p u b l is h
t h e s e n a m e s . T h e e v i d e n c e th e y g a v e u s is in t h e p u b lic d o m a i n a n d I
m u s t c o n f e s s t h a t u p t o th is p o i n t , n o t o n e p e r s o n h a s t h r e a t e n e d to u s
t o s a y, y o u p u b l is h e d m y n a m e a g a i n s t m y w is h e s e v e n M s P il l a y,
y e s t e r d a y d i d n ’ t s a y s h e w a s o p p o s e d t o h e r n a m e b e in g u s e d b u t s h e
was

q u o t i n g o t h e r p e o p l e , u n k n o w n p e o p le w h o a r e s a y in g t h e y w e r e

p u b lic is e d w it h o u t t h e ir c o n s e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o b u t – fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i t s e e m t h a t y o u

a r e n o t d is p u t in g t h a t th e e a r li e r a r r a n g e m e n t w a s th a t t h e ir n a m e s
10

w o u ld n o t b e d is c l o s e d , y o u a r e s i m p l y s a y in g t h a t , th a t m a y h a v e b e e n
s o o r t h a t w a s s o i n i t ia ll y b u t w h e n w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o is s u e th e
r e p o r t h e r e a r e c ir c u m s t a n c e s t h a t m a d e u s f e e l th a t th e r e s h o u ld b e n o
p r o b le m i f w e d i s c l o s e t h e n a m e s , is t h a t r i g h t ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y.

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u M r Th l o l o e , t h e – M s

G q u b u l e M b e k i a ls o h a d c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e r e p o r t .

S h e p a r tic u la r ly

h i g h l ig h te d t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w e r e m i n o r i n c o n s is t e n c i e s , th in g s th a t
a c t u a ll y d i d n o t o c c u r, s h e h ig h l i g h t e d t h e f a c t i n h e r e v i d e n c e th a t
20

t h e r e w a s a p a r t ic u l a r m e e t in g w h e r e i t w a s s ta t e d i n t h e r e p o r t th a t M r
M a t t h e w s a n d Ms D i tl h a k a n y a n e a t t e n d e d a m e e ti n g b u t th is w a s n o t
the case, can you comment on that?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Ye s M s G q u b u l e h a s b r o u g h t t h a t t o

m y a t te n ti o n a n d I c h e c k e d i t a n d I fo u n d t h a t s h e w a s r i g h t . S i b o l e l o
w a s p l a c e d in a m e e ti n g w h e r e I w a s tr y i n g t o s a y, S e k o n y e l a w h o i s a

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
c o m m u n ic a ti o n s p e r s o n fo r B r i a n M o l e fe a t t h e ti m e .

So instead of

ty p i n g S e k o n y e l a I t y p e d S e b o le l o , s o i t w a s a n e r r o r o n my p a r t . T h e
s e c o n d o n e w a s J i m i M a t th e w s a t a m e e ti n g w it h A la n Ts h a b a l a la . T h e
s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts th e r e i s t h a t J i m i M a t t h e w s w a s n o t i n t h a t m e e ti n g
b u t th e fo ll o w i n g d a y h e w e n t t o t h e n e w s r o o m a n d d ic ta t e d a n a p o l o g y
t o Br ia n M o le f e .

S o I t h i n k in t h e h u r r y t o fi n i s h t h e r e p o r t I ju s t

[i n d is t in c t] fr o m th e m e e t i n g to t h e n e x t d a y w h e r e h e d i c ta t e d a l e t t e r
o f a p o l o g y t o Br i a n M o le f e . Th e t w o m is t a k e s d o n o t – th e t w o e r r o r s I
committed, in fact there were three errors I committed where do not in
10

a n y w a y a ff e c t th e o u tc o m e o f th a t fi n d i n g .

T h e p o i n t is t h e p o i n t is

J i m i M a t t h e w s s u c c u m b e d t o a d e m a n d f r o m o u ts id e th e n e w s r o o m f o r
a n a p o l o g y, w h e n in f a c t h e s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e , h e s h o u l d h a v e s t o o d b y
h is s t a ff a n d s a id w e w i ll n o t a p o l o g is e .

W h e th e r h e d i d i t t h e d a y

b e f o r e o r t h e d a y a ft e r d o e s n ’ t m a t e r ia ll y a ff e c t t h e tr u t h o f t h e f in d i n g .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Mr T h lo lo e y o u ju s t h ig h l i g h t e d , ju s t

n o t t o lo s e tr a c k th a t y o u w a n t e d t o fi n is h t h e r e p o r t i n t i m e y o u w e r e in
a h u r r y p r o c e s s tr y i n g t o fi n is h t h is r e p o r t . N o w t h is r e p o r t is d a te d t h e
2 5 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 9 , w a s t h is t h e d a t e in w h ic h t h e r e p o r t w a s
s u b m i tt e d ?
20

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Ye s t h a t ’s t h e d a y w e s u b m i tt e d t h e

report.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Who did you submit the report to?
I t w a s d e li v e r e d t o t h e G r o u p C h ie f

E x e c u t iv e b u t h e in t u r n to l d u s t h a t t h is i s i n fa c t a B o a r d d o c u m e n t
a n d th e r e f o r e n e e d s t o b e s u b m it t e d t o th e B o a r d m a n a g e m e n t c o u l d n ’ t

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
handle that report and the report – I handed the report over to the
B o a r d o n t h e – i n J u l y o n t h e 2 3 r d o f J u ly b e c a u s e th e r e w a s – th e
B o a r d w a s n ’ t [i n d is t in c t] f o r t h e m o n t h s t h a t w e w e r e w o r k i n g o n t h is
thing.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

S o ju s t t o c l a r i fy y o u h a n d e d th e

report to the Board on the – in July 2019?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

J a J u ly th is y e a r a n d i t w a s m a d e

p u b lic in A u g u s t t h i s y e a r, o n t h e 5 t h o f A u g u s t.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

A n d j u s t g o i n g b a c k to y o u r

s t a te m e n t , i n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o n p a g e fi v e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e h a v e g o n e b e y o n d 1 o ’c l o c k .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

O h s o r r y a p o lo g i e s C h a ir, w e h a v e

g o n e – I w a s n o t a u fa i t w i t h t h e ti m e , h o w e v e r u p o n th e C h a i r ’s
a p p r o v a l I d o n o t f e e l t h a t t h is w i t n e s s w i ll b e a n y l o n g e r, I th i n k a t
m o s t w e w o u l d b e te n m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I w a s h o p i n g l e s s t h a n t e n m i n u te s fr o m w h a t I

see you have covered…[intervenes]
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

Ye s C h a ir I w a s ju s t e x a g g e r a ti n g s o

ju s t t w o t h i n g s
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y d o n ’ t e x a g g e r a te ju s t a s k tw o o r t h r e e

q u e s t io n s t h a t p r o b a b ly a r e – y o u s t il l w a n t to a s k a n d I ’ m s u r e w e w i ll
be done.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

N o a c t u a ll y t h i s is t h e f in a l q u e s t i o n

so we should done.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h e n n e x t o n e is t h e fi n a l o n e o r y o u m e a n th e

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
la s t o n e y o u d i d is t h e fi n a l o n e ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h o n e is t h e f in a l o n e , t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o th is o n e is th e fi n a l o n e ?

T h e la s t o n e .

O k a y a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r T h l o l o e f o r

h a v i n g c o m e fo r w a r d t o a s s i s t t h e C o m m i s s i o n , w e a p p r e c ia t e i t v e r y
m u c h , s h o u ld th e n e e d a r is e w e w i ll a s k y o u to c o m e b a c k b u t t h e r e
m i g h t n o t b e a n e e d b u t i f t h e n e e d a r i s e s w e w i ll a s k y o u t o c o m e
back.
10

MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

Mr C h a i r I t h o u g h t s h e w a s a s k in g i f

w e s h o u l d a c c e p t t h is r e p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u h e a r d m e a s k a fe w ti m e s w h e t h e r t h e

la s t q u e s ti o n w a s th e p r e v io u s o n e o r th e o n e t h a t s h e w a s s ti ll c o m i n g ,
s h e u lt i m a t e ly s a id it w a s th e p r e v i o u s o n e b u t I s e e t h a t t h e w a y th a t
s h e is lo o k i n g a t m e n o w i s li k e s h e w a n t s t o c h a n g e h e r m in d , d o y o u
w a n t to a s k o n e la s t q u e s ti o n ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s C h a i r, I b l a m e s l e e p d e p r a v a ti o n ,

a p o lo g i e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y a lr ig h t .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 M r T h lo lo e y o u

h i g h l ig h t th a t th e r e p o r t a n d t h e fi n d i n g s s h o u l d b e a d o p t e d b y t h e
C o m m i s s i o n b e i n g m in d f u l o f t h e fa c t t h a t t h e r e ’s a tr a n s c r ip t m is s i n g ,
w o l d y o u r a th e r m a k e a s u b m is s i o n th a t t h i s r e p o r t b e p r o v is io n a l ly
a d o p te d b y th e C o m m i s s i o n , c a n y o u e l a b o r a te o n t h is p a r a g r a p h ?
MR JOSEPH NONG THLOLOE:

T h e ty p o g r a p h i c a l e r r o r s I’ v e a lr e a d y

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
m e n ti o n e d , th e tr a n s c r ip t is s t il l o u ts t a n d in g b u t a s s o o n a s I h a v e i t
a v a i la b le I c a n s u b m it i t , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t e ls e h a p p e n s a f t e r I s u b mi t
t h a t tr a n s c r i p t b u t I w o u l d a s k t h a t t h is r e p o r t b e p r o v is i o n a l ly
a c c e p te d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I t h i n k w h a t w i ll h a p p e n is w e – I p r o b a b ly w i ll

fi n d a lo t o f h e l p fr o m t h e r e p o r t w e ’ ll l o o k a t i t , m a y b e a d o p ti n g m ig h t
b e a f o r m a l t e r m t h a t o n e c a n l o o k a t b u t c e r t a i n ly o n e a s s u m e s t h a t
t h e r e w i ll b e a lo t o f h e l p t h a t o n e c a n g a i n fr o m t h i s r e p o r t a n d t h a t in
t h e e n d th e a s s i s t a n c e t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n w o u ld h a v e d e r i v e d fr o m i t
10

w o u ld b e a c k n o w l e d g e d in o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r, y e s , o k a y t h a n k y o u b u t
I t h i n k it w il l b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t w h a te v e r is r e m a i n in g in t e r m s o f th e
tr a n s c r ip t th a t is n o t b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s io n y e s s h o u l d b e m a d e
a v a i la b le a s s o o n a s p o s s i b le a n d t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e m a y b e
certain errors to which you have spoken it would be important that
t h e r e is a c le a r d o c u m e n t t h a t m a k e s i t c le a r w h e r e t h o s e e r r o r s a r e
a n d s o th a t w h e n o n e g o e s t h r o u g h i t , o n e b e a r s i n m i n d t h o s e e r r o r s
t h a t h a v e b e e n a d m i t t e d , o k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir w e w il l f a c il it a t e

that.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h w e a p p r e c i a t e y o u r

c o m i n g t o a s s i s t t h e C o m m is s i o n , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h y o u a r e
e x c u s e d . M s M p h o t h a t is th e e n d fo r t o d a y, o n M o n d a y w e s t a r t a t t e n .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th a n k y o u M r C h a ir.

Who do we have on Monday again?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

W e h a v e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

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6 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 158
CHAIRPERSON:

Is it Dr Ngubane?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I t ’s D r N g u b a n e , i t ’s M r v a n Vu u r e n

a n d M r L e o n a r d D e g a t o , s o r r y C h a ir w e u s u a ll y w r i t e th e m d o w n , b u t
w e w il l s e n d t h e m t o t h e r e g is tr a r t h e w r it t e n n a m e s d o w n a n d w e ’l l
m a k e s u r e th e fi le s a r e a l ig n e d in t h a t f a s h io n fo r M o n d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h a t ’s f in e , w e a r e g o in g t o a d jo u r n a t th is

s t a g e f o r t h e d a y a n d o n M o n d a y w e ’l l s ta r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

C O M M I S S I O N A D J O U R N S TO 9 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9
10

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