C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

07 JUNE 2019

D AY 1 0 8

20

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
PROCEEDINGS ON 7 JUNE 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s M o le f e , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u . Ms M a k g a th o b e f o r e y e s t e r d a y ’s
10

adjournment you

were

t a k in g

the

C h a ir

through

the

n o te s

and

m e m o r a n d u m s t h a t y o u h a d p r e p a r e d r e la t i v e t o t h e f u n d i n g o f t h e 1 0 6 4
lo c o m o t iv e s a n d y o u h a d in d ic a te d t h a t s o m e o f th e m e m o r a n d u m s h a d
n o t r e a c h e d M r S i n g h t o w h o m t h e y w e r e a d d r e s s e d a n d y o u s a y th a t is
b e c a u s e t h e y h a d m y s t e r io u s ly d is a p p e a r e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h o s e m e m o r a n d u ms

a s y o u h a v e s t a t e d w a s t h a t t h e y s h o w e d tr e a s u r y ’s p la n s r e l a t iv e t o
t h e p l a n n i n g o f t h e f u n d i n g o f t h e 1 0 6 4 lo c o m o ti v e s , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : C a n w e t h e n tu r n t o E x h i b i t B B 1 0 [ b ] w h i c h is
y o u r s u p p l e m e n ta r y b u n d le .

Th e r e y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d t w o f u r t h e r

d o c u m e n ts r e l a ti v e to th e f u n d i n g p l a n s b y tr e a s u r y i n r e s p e c t o f t h e
1 0 6 4 l o c o m o ti v e s .

I f y o u t u r n to p a g e 1 3 u n d e r A n n e x u r e M M C t h e r e

a p p e a r s a n a d d i ti o n a l d o c u m e n t r e l a t iv e t o t h e fu n d i n g p l a n s p r e p a r e d
b y tr e a s u r y. C a n y o u ta k e t h e C h a ir th r o u g h t h i s d o c u m e n t?

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h a n k y o u A d v o c a t e . C h a ir th e
m e m o r a n d u m w a s d e v e l o p e d a r o u n d t h e b e g in n i n g o f 2 0 1 4 .

Yo u w i ll

r e m e m b e r y e s te r d a y a s I w a s g iv i n g t e s t i m o n y t h a t I h a d in d ic a t e d t h a t
a s e a r ly a s A p r i l 2 0 1 3 to b e e x a c t th e 7 A p r il 2 0 1 3 w e h a d s ta r t e d t o
h i g h l ig h t w h a t t h e p o s s i b i li t ie s s h o u l d b e f o r f in a n c i n g o f t h e 1 0 5 4
lo c o m o t iv e s . W e e v e n w e n t fu r t h e r t o h i g h l ig h t t h e m a t e r i a l s r is k s t h a t
n e e d t o b e c o n s i d e r e d a n d C h a ir y o u w il l a l s o r e m e m b e r th a t a t th a t
p o i n t i n ti m e th e p r o c u r e m e n t w a s n o t y e t f i n a li s e d . I n a c t u a l f a c t w e
w e r e s t ill a r o u n d t h e t e n d e r i n g s ta g e .
10

S o i t w a s j u s t h ig h l e v e r

t h o u g h ts a n d t h e r e f o r e w e f o l lo w e d w i t h a n u m b e r o f h i g h l e v e l
memorandums.

S o i t is o n ly i n 2 0 1 4 w h e n w e k n e w f o r s u r e w h o th e

f o u r p r e fe r r e d b i d d e r s a r e a n d w h a t t h e i r c o u n tr i e s o f o r i g in w e r e . A n d
t h e r e f o r e a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e a n d i m p o r t a n tly w e k n e w t h e q u a n t u m o f
t h e fu n d s th a t a r e r e q u i r e d f o r th a t c h u n k y p r o c u r e m e n t e v e n t . A n d i t
w a s th e r e fo r e i m p o r ta n t f o r u s to t h r a s h o u t e x a c t ly w h a t th e f u n d in g
m e c h a n is m w i ll b e u s e d o n e a n d t w o w h a t t h e r is k m a n a g e m e n t p la n is
g iv e n th e m a r k e t c ir c u m s t a n c e s a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e . I w o u ld t h e r e f o r e
lik e t o r e fe r t o y o u a s t h e A d v o c a te h a s h i g h l ig h te d t o p a g e 1 3 .

The

p u r p o s e o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m C h a ir s a y s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e s u b m is s i o n
20

is t o r e c o m m e n d to t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u tiv e a n d th e G r o u p C h i e f
Fi n a n c i a l

O ff ic e r

the

proposed

funding

s tr a t e g y

for

the

1224

lo c o m o t iv e s c o m p r i s i n g o f 1 0 6 4 l o c o , 5 9 9 e l e c tr ic l o c o m o tiv e s a n d 4 6 5
d i e s e l lo c o m o t iv e s , 1 0 0 C h i n a S o u t h R a il w a y l o c o m o tiv e s a n d 1 0 6 0
General

E le c tr i c

lo c o m o t iv e s .

[i n d is t in c t]

c o l le c t iv e l y

referred

herein

as

the

C h a ir I w o u ld lik e t o j u m p t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d m o v e to

Page 3 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e d is c u s s i o n . P a r a g r a p h 6 d e ta ils th e c a s h f lo w. I t i s a t a b l e a r o u n d
t h e c a s h f lo w s a n d t h e t i m in g o f t h e c a s h f l o w s f o r e a c h o f t h e
tr a n c h e s . A n d I w o u ld li k e t o r e a d p a r a g r a p h 6 – p a r a g r a p h 7 , 8 a n d 9
and 10.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s g o a h e a d .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
“ A s t h e l o c o m o t iv e a n d t h e r e s p e c ti v e c o m p o n e n ts
w i ll b e p r o c u r e d fr o m B o m b a r d i e r C S R C N R a n d G E
t h e y w il l h a v e a f o r e i g n c o n t e n t a n d s u c h Tr a n s n e t
c a n m a k e u s e o f b o th ti e d a n d u n ti e d E C A b a c k e d

10

f u n d i n g . G r o u p Tr e a s u r y h a s a p p l ie d to t h e U S E x i m
f o r a p r e l i m in a r y c o m m i t m e n t f o r a l o n g te r m l o a n
a n d g u a r a n te e f o r fi n a n c i n g o f t h e G E p o r ti o n o f t h e
project as GE has…”
CHAIRPERSON: I hear you say oh or say end.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : E n d .
CHAIRPERSON: It says oh do you – should it have been end?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O k a y.

Okay maybe let me

repeat.
20

“ G r o u p Tr e a s u r y H a s a p p l ie d t o U S E x i m fo r a
p r e l i mi n a r y c o m m i t m e n t f o r a l o n g t e r m l a o a n o r
g u a r a n te e f o r fi n a n c i n g o f th e G E p o r t io n o f t h e
p r o j e c t t h a t h a s U S c o n t e n t a n d i s w a it in g f o r a n
in d i c a t iv e r is k p r e m i u m . In t h e s u p p l ie r p r o p o s a ls fo r
t h e lo c o m o t iv e s U S E x i m h a d p r o p o s e d a s 7 2 2

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
m il li o n d o l l a r c o v e r.

S in c e t h e c o v e r – t h e f in a l

c o v e r w i ll d e p e n d o n t h e f o r e i g n c o n te n t a n d U S
E x i m ’s c r e d i t a p p e ti t e G r o u p Tr e a s u r y c o n s e r v a t iv e ly
o n ly f a c t o r e d 5 b i ll io n a s t h e p o t e n t ia l c o v e r fr o m U S
E x i m . I n te r ms o f th e n e w 2 0 1 2 s e c t o r u n d e r s t a n d in g
o n e x p o r ts c r e d i t … ”
ADV REFILOE MOLEF E: Sorry Ms Makgatho I have it as 2014. From
in t e r m s o f th e n e w 2 0 1 4 …
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s d i d I n o t s a y 2 0 1 4 ?
10

A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Yo u s a i d 2 0 1 2 M a ’ a m .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t h e r e a r e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o n e e d s p e c s lik e u s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
“ I n t e r m s o f t h e n e w 2 0 1 4 s e c to r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o n
e x p o r t s c r e d it s f o r r a il i n f r a s t r u c t u r e p r e s c r i b e d b y
the

OECD

g u i d e li n e s

US

Exim

may

provide

a

g u a r a n te e o f u p t o 1 4 y e a r s w i th – w h ic h t e n u r e is
20

f a v o u r a b l e f o r Tr a n s n e t ’s a s s e t a n d li a b i li t y m a tc h i n g
s tr a t e g y.

As

part

of

the

Bombardier

and

GE

p r o p o s a l s Ex p o r t D e v e lo p m e n t C a n a d a o ff e r e d u p t o
75

m i ll io n

d o l la r s

to w a r d s

th e

f u n d in g

of

the

lo c o m o t iv e s . Tr e a s u r y h a s r e q u e s t e d fo r a n i n c r e a s e
in t h is a m o u n t a n d E D C s u b s e q u e n t ly a g r e e d t o 1 0 0

Page 5 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
d o ll a r s – t o 1 0 0 m il li o n d o ll a r s .

E D C h a s a lr e a d y

p r e s e n t e d Tr a n s n e t ’s r e q u e s t t o i ts p r e c o m m i t t e e
a n d w i ll p r o v i d e a ti m e s h e e t b y 1 3 J u n e 2 0 1 4 . ”
C h a ir a s p a r t o f th e s e e n g a g e m e n t s l a t e r o n E D C jo i n t ly p r e s e n te d a
p r o p o s a l w it h In v e s te c w h i c h w a s a n in c r e a s e d a m o u n t o f 6 0 0 m i ll io n
d o ll a r s .

I b e li e v e i t is c o v e r e d in o t h e r s u b m is s i o n s th a t w e a r e

r e fe r r e d t o y e s te r d a y.

S o t h e a m o u n t i n c r e a s e d f r o m 1 0 0 m il li o n

d o ll a r s t o 6 0 0 m il li o n d o l la r s e q u i v a le n t o f r e n t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 9
“The

African

Development

Bank

has

presented

Tr a n s n e t w i th a 1 0 0 – w i t h 1 0 0 0 m i ll io n l o a n f a c il i ty. ”
C h a ir w h ic h is a b il li o n r a n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I w a s t h i n k i n g t h a t s h o u l d b e a b i ll io n r a n d .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : It is i n d o ll a r s I b e li e v e .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I t is i n d o ll a r s .

N o , n o i t is a

b i ll io n d o ll a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a b il li o n d o l l a r s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t is a b ill i o n d o l la r s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t it r e m i n d s m e w h a t y o u a n d I t a l k e d a b o u t

yesterday at some stage when you were talking about – do you
r e m e m b e r t h a t d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s w r i tt e n m il li o n a t th e to p ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a i r t h e c a s h f lo w s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I w a s s a y i n g s h o u l d it n o t s a y b il li o n a n d a t s o m e
s t a g e I s a i d w e l l is i t 3 0 0 0 a n d w h a t e v e r w h a t e v e r m i ll io n t o m a k e it a

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
b i ll io n s o i t l o o k s lik e th a t k in d o f t h i n g h e r e . O k a y a lr i g h t.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o 1 0 0 0 m il li o n i t i s a b il li o n

rands.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : D o ll a r s M s M a k g a th o .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : S o t h a t is a b i ll i o n d o ll a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
“ 5 0 0 m il li o n d o ll a r s o n A F D B ’s b a l a n c e s h e e t a n d
10

5 0 0 m il li o n d o ll a r s t o b e a s y n d ic a te d /c o - fi n a n c e w i th
c o m m e r c ia l

banks

and

or

o th e r

D F I ’s .

Group

Tr e a s u r y h o s t e d A F D B f o r a 3 d a y p r e l i m i n a r y d u e
d i li g e n c e m is s io n o n t h e b a c k o f a p r o p o s e d 2 0 y e a r
5 0 0 m il li o n t e r m l o a n fa c i li ty a t a p r i c e o f 3 m o n t h s
J I B A p l u s 2 5 0 to 3 0 0 b a s i s p o i n t s . T h a t i s 2 . 5 to 3 % .
Subsequent

to

the

i n i ti a l

review

m is s io n

AFDB

r e v is e d t h e i n d i c a t iv e p r ic i n g d o w n t o 3 m o n t h s J I B A
p l u s 2 2 0 t o 2 5 0 b a s is p o in ts a n d t h e fr o n t e n d f e e
fr o m 2 0 0 b a s is p o i n ts t o 1 2 0 b a s is p o i n ts a n d i n
20

b r a c k e ts I s a y [ R 6 0 m i ll i o n ] .

G r o u p Tr e a s u r y a s k

A F D B t o r e v is e t h e c o m m i t m e n t fe e o f 7 5 b a s is
p o i n t s to 7 5 b a s is p o i n ts a n d t h e fr o n t e n d fe e
downwards.

O n c e th e c o m m e r c i a l te r ms a r e a g r e e d

A F D B e x t e n d e d t e a m o f o ff ic ia ls w il l c o n d u c t a m o r e
in - d e p t h s c r u t in y o f Tr a n s n e t ’s o p e r a ti o n . ”

Page 7 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C h a ir a s p a r t o f o u r n o r m a l – o r o u r n o r m a l t r e a s u r y p r o c e d u r e s w h e n
w e r e c e iv e d a p r o p o s a l w e w il l t a k e w h a t th e l e n d e r is p r o p o s in g a n d
w e w il l c o m p a r e t h a t to w h a t w e b e li e v e s h o u l d b e g i v e n t h e c u r r e n t
m a r k e t c ir c u m s t a n c e s .

A n d w e w il l t h e r e fo r e d o o u r b e s t t o r e v i s e

p r i c i n g w h ic h is t h e i n t e r e s t r a t e a n d p r i c in g is m a d e u p o f i n t e r e s t
r a te , i s a ls o m a d e u p o f c o m m i t m e n t f e e s a n d i t i s a ls o m a d e u p o f
fr o n t e n d f e e s . S o w e w il l u s e o u r e x p e r i e n c e a n d w e w i ll d o o u r b e s t
t o r e v is e – t o n e g o ti a te t h e m d o w n w a r d s . A n d i n t h i s i n s t a n c e C h a ir I
b e li e v e th a t w e c a m e t o a p o i n t w h e r e w e h a d s u c c e s s fu ll y r e v is e d th e
10

p r i c i n g a n d t h e r e l a te d f e e s to a p o i n t w h e r e w e f e lt c o m f o r t a b l e t o
r e c o m m e n d to o u r p r i n c i p le s . I th e r e fo r e li k e to g o t o p o in t 1 0 .
“ C h i n a D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k C D B h a s i n d ic a te d t h e ir w i ll in g n e s s t o f u n d
t h e C S R a n d C N R p o r ti o n o f u p t o 3 b il li o n d o ll a r s a t a r a t e o f 3 m o n t h
L I B O R p l u s 2 4 0 to 2 9 0 b a s is p o i n ts .

Tr a n s n e t h a s r e v e r t e d w i th i ts

e x p e c te d p r ic i n g a n d is w a it i n g f o r C D B ’s r e s p o n s e i n t h is r e g a r d . ”
C h a ir w h e n a l e n d e r p r o v id e s u s p r ic i n g i n d o ll a r t e r m s w h a t w e w il l d o
u s i n g o u r in t e r n a l p r ic i n g w e w i ll t h e n t r a n s l a t e t h a t d o l la r p r i c i n g i n t o
Rands.

A n d C h a ir I h a v e in d i c a t e d o n a n u m b e r o f t i m e s th a t t h e

in d i c a t e d p r ic i n g d e p e n d i n g o n t h e r a t e s o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y i t
20

tr a n s l a te d i n t o J I B A p lu s 4 0 0 i n c e r t a i n in s t a n c e s 4 5 0 , 4 7 0 b a s is p o i n ts
w h ic h w a s w a y o u t o f o u r n o r m a l p r ic in g a n d in a d d i ti o n t o t h e i n te r e s t
r a te t h e y h a d a ls o p r o p o s e d c o m m i t m e n t f e e s a n d fr o n t e n d fe e s t h a t
w e r e a ls o n o t a l i g n e d t o w a r d y o u r ty p i c a l D F I w il l o ff e r.

Because

r e m e m b e r th a t w h e n a c o u n tr y s p e c if i c o ff e r s f in a n c i n g t h e y a r e
s u p p o r t in g th e ir o w n h o m e c o u n tr y o r g a n i s a ti o n s a n d th e r e fo r e t h e y d o

Page 8 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h a t t h r o u g h c o s t e ff e c t iv e f in a n c in g a n d w e e x p e c ti n g th a t to b e t h e
c a s e w i t h t h e C h in e s e C h a ir. B u t a t – i n it ia lly w e w e r e n o t t o o w o r r i e d
b e c a u s e w e k n e w t h a t w i th n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d c o n v in c i n g w e n o r m a ll y g e t
t o a p o in t w h e r e t h e – b o t h p a r ti e s a g r e e a n d C h a ir w e a r e a l s o n o t
w o r r i e d a g a i n b e c a u s e w e k n e w t h a t if w e g e t t o a p o i n t w h e r e w e d o
n o t a g r e e t h e t e r m s i t i s e a s y I m e a n w e c a n a l w a y s t e r m i n a t e th e
d is c u s s io n s .

A n d a s I h a d i n d ic a te d b e f o r e a t a n y p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n

ti m e G r o u p Tr e a s u r y h a d a b o u t s ix o r s e v e n f i n a n c in g p r o p o s a ls th a t w e
c a n u s e th a t w e r e c o m p a r a b l e t o o th e r s i m il a r p r o d u c ts t h a t w e r e
10

a l ig n e d t o o u r e x p e c t a t i o n s . A n d r e m e m b e r y e s t e r d a y I h i g h l ig h t e d t h e
f a c t t h a t w e m o n i t o r e d w h a t w e c a ll t h e w e i g h t e d a v e r a g e c o s t o f d e b t
a n d a t th a t p a r ti c u l a r p o i n t i n t i m e w h a t w a s a r o u n d b e tw e e n 9 .3 to
9 .4 % a n d w h e n w e tr a n s l a t e d t h is i n fi x e d t e r m i t w a s a r o u n d 1 3 % o r s o
w h ic h w a s e x t r e m e ly h i g h C h a ir f o r a f a c il i ty. S o C h a i r a n o t h e r p o i n t –
s o o n p o i n t 1 4 – o n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 C h a i r I a m j u s t h ig h li g h t in g t h a t th e r e
a r e m a n y s o u r c e s th a t w e c a n ta p . W e h a v e th e D M T N p r o g r a m m e . W e
h a v e th e o t h e r D F I ’s l ik e t h e G e r m a n D F I , K F W. W e h a v e t h e d e v i o u s
A.

W e h a v e th e E u r o p e a n In v e s t m e n t B a n k w h o h a v e a ll in d ic a t e d

s u p p o r t t o f in a n c e o u r lo c o m o t iv e s p r o c u r e m e n t . S o C h a ir I a ls o g o o n
20

t o i n d i c a t e t h a t a l t h o u g h th e b a s e l 3 i m p a c t o n t h e c o s t o f s w o p s m a y
b e s li g h t ly n e g a t iv e w e d o n o t e x p e c t it to b e t o o m u c h . S o o v e r a l l w e
w e r e e x p e c ti n g t h a t e v e n t h o u g h w e a r e – w e a r e fi n a n c i n g m u c h m o r e
b u t w e d i d n o t e x p e c t t h a t w e w il l h a v e a n e g a tiv e i m p a c t o n
[i n d is t in c t] . A n d C h a i r I w o u l d a ls o li k e t o h i g h li g h t t h a t th is is n o t t h e
o n ly m e m o r a n d u m .

Fr o m t h e b e g in n in g o f 2 0 1 4 C h a ir w e k e p t o n

Page 9 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w r i t in g m e m o r a n d u m s f o r t h e fi n a n c i n g o f t h e lo c o m o t iv e s . A n d C h a ir
f o r r e a s o n s n o t k n o w n t o m e t h e y k e p t o n b e i n g – o n b e i n g mi s s in g i n
a c ti o n C h a ir. I n i t ia ll y I w o u ld j u s t b e fr u s t r a te d a n d th in k t h a t p r o b a b l y
o u r a d m in is tr a ti o n is n o t u p t o s c r a t c h a n d I w o u l d r e d o a n d r e - u p d a te –
I m e a n r e - u p d a t e if n e c e s s a r y a n d t h e n t h e y w i ll g e t l o s t a g a in C h a i r
b u t t h e o t h e r m e m o r a n d u m s th a t w e r e r e l a ti n g to o t h e r a r e a s o f
tr e a s u r y C h a ir w e r e n o t m i s s in g . W e w o u l d g e t s i g n a t u r e s , t h e y w i ll b e
handled accordingly but these ones for reasons not known to me they
k e p t o n b e in g m is s in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w it h in t h e c o n t e x t o f w h a t y o u s a i d y e s t e r d a y
w h e n y o u s a y th e y k e p t o n g e t t in g lo s t y o u a r e n o t s t a t i n g a s a fa c t t h a t
t h e y g o t l o s t . Yo u m e a n th a t y o u w e r e t o ld th a t th e y g o t lo s t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s o m e h o w y o u h a v e r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t w h e t h e r

t h e y tr u ly g o t l o s t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d C h a i r p a r a g r a p h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – I a m s o r r y.
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B y t h e w a y t h i s m e m o r a n d u m y o u s a id w a s – w o u l d

h a v e b e e n i s s u e d a r o u n d A p r il 2 0 1 3 ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s th e d a t e …
CHAIRPERSON: I see it does not give the date.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s t h e d a te o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m

Page 10 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
– i t is ju s t t h a t I d o n o t h a v e – I t h in k – l e t u s c h e c k i f I h a v e t h e d a t e ?
I th in k i t w a s a r o u n d J u n e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Around June 2014?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : J u n e 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh 2014 not 13?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

No, no the ones that we dealt

w i t h y e s te r d a y w e r e 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : S o t h e s e a r e th e m e m o r a n d u m s
10

ju s t a f te r – m a y b e a r o u n d A p r il 2 0 1 4 b e t w e e n A p r il 2 0 1 4 a n d J u ly 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A f t e r t h e c o n tr a c ts w e r e s i g n e d .
C h a ir t h e i m p o r t a n t p a r t t o n o t e is p a r a g r a p h 1 4 . I n t h is p a r a g r a p h …
CHAIRPERSON: One second.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : P a g e 1 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja – yes. Paragraph 14.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O n t h is p a r a g r a p h C h a ir w e

o u t li n e a n d h ig h li g h t a l l o f t h e f i n a n c in g a c ti v i ti e s t h a t w e w e r e – th a t
w e w e r e b u s y w i th i t i s 1 , 2 , 3 ,4 , 5 ,6 , 7 ,8 . W e w e r e b u s y w i t h 8 p o t e n ti a l
20

fi n a n c i a l s o l u ti o n s a n d t h e t o t a l o f t h i s w a s 4 8 . 7 5 b i ll io n a n d in a d d it i o n
t o t h a t C h a ir w e h a d a v a il a b l e f a c i li t ie s t o t a lly 1 0 . 9 b i ll i o n .

In total

C h a ir w e c o u l d p i c k a n d c h o o s e f r o m a t o ta l o f 5 9 .6 5 b i ll io n .

T h i s is

e x c lu d in g w h a t i s a v a i la b le i n t h e d e b t c a p it a l m a r k e ts u n d e r t h e D M T N
programme.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 11 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s th a n k y o u . A n d i n y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n
y o u s o u g h t a p p r o v a l o f t h is m e m o r a n d u m ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

N o w y e s te r d a y y o u w e r e t a k i n g t h e C h a ir

t h r o u g h t h e F R M w h ic h e n li s ts s e v e r a l p r e s c r i p t s to t h e Tr e a s u r y
D e p a r t m e n t a n d o n e o f t h o s e w o u ld b e fi n a n c i a l r is k m a n a g e m e n t , is
that correct?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir,
ADV
10

REFILOE

MOLEFE:

And

in

your

exercise

of

all

th e s e

m e m o r a n d u m s a n d a ll th e e s ti m a t io n s t h a t y o u h a d p u t f o r t h i n a d v ic e
t o th e G C E a n d t h e G C F O y o u w o u l d h a v e h a d to p r e p a r e s o m e w h a t o f
a f i n a n c ia l r i s k m a n a g e m e n t p la n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Can you then…
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry Mr Molefe.

T h is m e m o r a n d u m th a t y o u

r e a d a f e w m i n u t e s a g o d i d y o u s a y i t w a s o n e o f th o s e th a t w e r e n o t
r e s p o n d e d t o o r r e c e ip t o f w h i c h w a s n o t a c k n o w l e d g e d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t i s o n e o f th e m a n y t h a t w e n t
m is s i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u w e r e t o l d g o t lo s t .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C a n y o u p l e a s e s t il l

s t a y in g o n E x h i b i t B B 1 0 [ b ] c a n y o u t h e n t u r n t o p a g e 1 9 o f t h a t b u n d l e .
What document appears on that page?

Page 12 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h i s is a p r e s e n t a t i o n it is t it l e d
1 0 6 4 l o c o m o ti v e s f in a n c ia l r is k a n d C h a ir if I a m n o t w r o n g t h e d a te o f
t h is m e m o r a n d u m i s t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s . A n d w h a t d o e s th a t p r e s e n t a t i o n s e e k t o
c o m m u n ic a te ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h e p r e s e n t a ti o n C h a ir s p e a k s –
h i g h l ig h ts th e r i s k s t h a t Tr a n s n e t is fa c e d w i t h a r o u n d th e p r o c u r e m e n t
o f t h e l o c o m o t iv e s a n d t h e f in a n c i n g t h e r e o f .

And it – it kind of

h i g h l ig h ts o r i d e n ti f ie s w h e r e t h e s e r is k s w i ll e m a n a t e fr o m a n d i t a l s o
10

o n p a g e 3 C h a ir it a l s o g o e s o n to s a y …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : W h e n y o u s a y p a g e 3 a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o th e
p a g in a t e d p a g e 2 1 ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Thank you.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : S o r r y a b o u t t h a t C h a ir m a n . A n d
it a l s o r e fe r s t o th e k e y r is k s t h a t n e e d s t o b e c o n s i d e r e d i n fi n a n c i n g .
O n p a g e 2 2 C h a ir a s a c o n t in u a t i o n o f t h e k e y r i s k s t o b e c o n t in u a ti o n
– t o b e c o n s i d e r e d . It e v e n i n c lu d e s w h a t w e c a ll s c e n a r io a n a ly s is o f
w h e r e t h e s p o t r a te is a n d w h a t t h e i m p a c t w o u ld b e s h o u ld t h e

20

e x c h a n g e r a t e m o v e b y 2 5 c e n ts o r 5 0 c e n t s .
w h a t th e i m p a c t i s .
p r o j e c ti o n s .

A n d w e e v e n h i g h l ig h t

A n d C h a ir i t e v e n g o e s fu r t h e r to p r o v i d e t h e

O n th a t d a y C h a ir o n t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 t h e p r o – th e

s p o t r a te fo r th e d o l l a r w a s R 1 0 . 9 2 a n d fo r t h e E u r o w a s R 1 4 . 1 8 a n d i t
– a n d i t ta b le s o v e r a s e v e n y e a r p e r io d w h e r e th e d o ll a r e x c h a n g e r a te
is e x p e c t e d to b e a n d w h e r e th e E u r o r a n d r a te s a r e e x p e c te d to b e .

Page 13 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
I m p o r ta n t to n o te C h a ir is o n p a g e 2 3 – a n d C h a ir a s w e c a n s e e w e
w e r e a lr e a d y a w a r e a n d w e h a v e a lr e a d y f a c t o r e d th a t t h e r a n d w il l n o t
stay on one zone all the time and therefore as we plan we have to
in c l u d e w h a t t h e f o r e c a s t e d r a t e s a r e f o r t h e f u t u r e .

A n d C h a ir a s I

in d i c a t e d p r e v i o u s l y y e s t e r d a y t h a t e v e n i n o u r p l a n n in g p u r p o s e s C h a ir
f o r t h e c o r p o r a t e p l a n w e w il l n o t j u s t u s e s p o t w e w i ll u s e s p o t f o r n o w
a n d s a y o v e r t h e m e d iu m t e r m t h e m a r k e t p r e d ic ts th e r a n d o r w h a t e v e r
r a te s to b e X Y Z .

S o t h i s is ju s t t h a t e x e r c is e .

Chair on page 23 we

e v e n s a y t h a t a s p a r t o f th e r i s k m a n a g e m e n t s tr a t e g y w e e v e n s a y
10

b u ll e t 2 :
“ D u e to t h e c u r r e n t w e e k r a t e e n v i r o n m e n t it is n o t
id e a l t o u ti li s e fo r w h a t e x c h a n g e r a t e a s a h e d g i n g
in s t r u m e n t a s Tr a n s n e t w i ll l o g in w e a k le v e l s w h i c h
c a n b e s e e n fr o m t h e p r e v io u s t a b l e o n p a g e 2 3 . W e
f u r th e r s a y t h a t w e n e e d t o c o n s i d e r t h e u s e o f
o p t io n h e d g in g s tr u c tu r e s y o u k n o w s o t h a t w e c a n
a l lo w u s to c a p tu r e t h e b e n e fi t i n f u t u r e . ”
S o a lr e a d y w e w e r e c o g n is a n t o f t h e l e v e l s a t th a t p o i n t i n t i m e a n d w e
a lr e a d y h a d a s tr a t e g y in p l a c e C h a ir. A n d C h a ir a s y o u h e a r d – y o u

20

m i g h t h a v e s e e n in t h e e m a i l d a te d 7 A p r i l 2 0 1 3 e v e n a t t h a t p o i n t
C h a ir w e h a d h i g h l ig h t e d t h e r i s k s t h a t w e n e e d to m o n it o r. A n d C h a ir
o n p a g e 2 4 w e a r e a l s o h i g h l ig h ti n g t h e o t h e r r is k s t h a t c o m e w i t h t h e
s u p p li e r o b l i g a t io n s a n d w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t th e n o n – t h e d e li v e r y a n d
t h e p a y m e n t s c h e d u l e , t h e d e l a y p e n a l ti e s , t h e l i q u i d a t e d d a m a g e s , t h e
t e r m in a ti o n c la u s e , th e i n v o ic i n g a n d p a y m e n t m e c h a n is m s .

Page 14 of 212

So we

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w e r e a lr e a d y p l a n n i n g a n d t h in k i n g a b o u t a ll o f t h e k e y r i s k s t h a t w i ll
e m a n a t e fr o m t h e a c tu a l s u p p l i e r c o n t r a c t a n d t h e k e y r is k s th a t w o u ld
e m a n a t e fr o m t h e fi n a n c i n g c o n tr a c t a n d t h e k e y r i s k s th a t w il l
e m a n a t in g fr o m a ll s o r ts o f m a r k e t r is k s t h a t r e la t e s t o th e fi n a n c i n g
a n d th e s u p p l i e r c o n tr a c ts .

S o w e h a d a h o li s t ic p l a n fr o m A t o Z

r e g a r d in g th e e n t ir e p r o c u r e m e n t p la n .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t fir s t l in e o n p a g e 2 3 n e g o t ia t e S o u t h A fr ic a n

R a n d s c o n tr a c t w it h f ix e d p r ic e . I s t h a t f ix e d p r ic e – is t h a t a r e fe r e n c e
t o i n t e r e s t r a te s b y a n y c h a n c e ?
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a lly ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : B e c a u s e y o u r – th is is r e fe r r i n g
t o th e s u p p l i e r c o n tr a c t, th e u n d e r ly in g c o n tr a c t. S o C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e
s u p p li e r s a r e b a s e d o v e r s e a s t h e y w o u l d n o r m a ll y c o s t i n d o l la r s b u t
t h e y a r e a b le – b e c a u s e t h e y a r e b ig in s t i t u t i o n s . T h e y a r e a b l e to u s e
t h e ir o w n b a la n c e s h e e t a n d p r o v id e u s w i t h a f ix e d r a t e . I n s o d o in g
w e e l i m i n a t e th e fo r e ig n c u r r e n c y r is k w i t h o u t h a v i n g t o u s e o w n li n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

20

Thank you.

Did you ever present this

p r e s e n t a ti o n t o a n y o n e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

W e d is c u s s e d i t C h a ir a n d w e

e v e n s u b m i t te d i t t o t h e G C F O .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And was there any response to this

p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r a n y s p e c i fic

Page 15 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
r e s p o n s e C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Th a n k y o u .

C a n w e r e t u r n th e n t o E x h ib i t

B B 1 0 [ a ] w h i c h is y o u r m a i n b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll M s M o l e fe y o u d o i n g w e ll t o d a y b y m a k i n g s u r e
we – you announce if we change.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d w e o n – in th a t b u n d l e
turn to page 26?
CHAIRPERSON: What page are we on?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: We are turning to page.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Page 22.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : 2 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 26?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

N o w fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 0 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t

t h e r e c o n t in u e t o i ll u s tr a t e th e w o r k th a t t r e a s u r y h a d p u t i n r e l a ti n g t o
t h e fu n d i n g o f t h e lo c o m o t iv e s a n d y o u a l s o s e t o u t th a t s o m e o f t h e s e
s u p p li e r s h a d s u p p o r t fr o m t h e ir r e s p e c tiv e c o u n tr ie s . S t a r t i n g w it h t h e
G E tr a n c h e c a n y o u t a k e th e C h a ir t h r o u g h th is a s p e c t?
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir o n p a r a g r a p h
1 0 5 C h a ir. H e r e I a m j u s t il l u s tr a t i n g t h a t p r i o r w o r k h a d a l r e a d y b e e n
d o n e b y G r o u p Tr e a s u r y.

W e h a d a lr e a d y f in a n c e d th e 1 0 0 G E

lo c o m o t iv e s a n d C h a ir t h r o u g h t h a t w e h a d a lr e a d y – t h e r e i s a
s tr u c t u r e th a t w e d e v e lo p e d t o g e t h e r w i t h U S E x i m it i n v o l v e d a s p e c ia l
p u r p o s e v e h i c l e . W e h a d a lr e a d y s o u g h t t a x o p i n i o n s o n t h a t s tr u c tu r e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
– le g a l o p i n io n s C h a ir. W e h a d a lr e a d y s o u g h t a c c o u n ti n g o p in i o n s a n d
w e a l r e a d y k n e w h o w w e a r e g o in g to d e a l w it h i t a n d C h a ir t h is
s tr u c t u r e t h o u g h t h e U S E x i m i t is a d o ll a r b a s e d o r g a n i s a t io n t h i s
s tr u c t u r e a ll o w e d U S E x i m t o b e c o m e f o r d a b l e to p r o v id e a r a n d
g u a r a n te e a n d t h e r e fo r e C h a ir f o r t h e n e w l o c o m o ti v e s t h a t a r e
p r o c u r e d fr o m G E w h ic h i s b a s e d in t h e U S fo r t h e n e w fi n a n c i n g w e
w e r e n o t g o in g to d o m u c h w o r k b e c a u s e t h e w o r k w a s a lr e a d y d o n e . I
m e a n t h e s u i t e o f d o c u m e n ts w e r e a lr e a d y t h e r e .

T h e te r ms a n d

c o n d i ti o n s w e r e a lr e a d y a g r e e d . T h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t w a s o u ts t a n d in g f o r
10

t h is n e w tr a n c h e w a s t h e c o m m e r c ia l t e r m s .

I n s i m p l e C h a ir f o r t h e

new procurement it was just a plug and play and we proceed. So that
is o n th e U S E x i m tr a n c h e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d a n il l u s tr a t i o n t h a t
s e e k s t o s h o w h o w t h e f in a n c in g s tr u c t u r e w o u ld – w o u l d c o m e in t o
p l a y. C a n y o u b r ie f ly ta k e t h e C h a ir th r o u g h t h a t il lu s t r a t io n ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir a s I h a v e i n d ic a te d th is

s tr u c t u r e a ll o w e d t h e U S E x i m t o p r o v id e a R a n d g u a r a n t e e .

If they

w e r e t o p r o v id e a g u a r a n t e e d ir e c tly t o Tr a n s n e t t h e y w o u ld h a v e t o d o
it i n D o ll a r s a n d o u r p r e f e r e n c e – a s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e – is a lw a y s
20

a R a n d c o n tr a c t a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e c r e a t io n o f – o f a n S P C a l lo w e d U S
E x i m t o h a v e c e r t a i n r i g h ts i n th e u n l i k e l y e v e n t o f a d e f a u l t a n d
t h e r e f o r e t h e g u a r a n t e e d l e n d e r s w h o w il l le n d t o th e S P C w h i c h w i ll in
t u r n l e n d t o Tr a n s n e t. T h is is a s tr a i g h t th r o u g h fi n a n c i n g s tr u c t u r e a n d
a l l th e lo c o m o tiv e s a s s e c u r i t y w i ll b e p l a c e d t o t h e S P C a n d I m e a n a s
y o u c a n s e e t h e s e c u r i t y a g e n t a r r a n g e m e n t w a s a lr e a d y d o n e a n d

Page 17 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
d u s te d . S o C h a ir w e li k e d t h i s b e c a u s e i n a d d it i o n t o p r o v id in g R a n d
c o v e r t h i s i s o n e o f t h e s tr u c t u r e s t h a t w a s e x tr e m e ly c h e a p . W e e n d e d
u p b e e n a b le t o s o u r c e l o n g fu n d i n g f o r a b o u t J I B A R p l u s 1 5 5 p o i n t s
w h ic h i s e x tr e m e ly c o s t e ffe c t iv e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d i f o n e u n d e r s ta n d s t h is c o r r e c tl y

w o u ld th e i n tr o d u c t io n o f t h e C P – t h e S P C r a t h e r – b e s o m e w h a t o f a
fi l te r i n r e l a ti o n t o th e f o r e i g n c o m p o n e n t o r f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y t h a t w o u l d
c o m e in t o p la y ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
10

I t is a f il t e r f o r th e g u a r a n te e

b e c a u s e U S E x i m is n o t a b l e to p r o v id e lo c a l c u r r e n c y t o a f o r e i g n
in s t i tu t io n …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

B u t i f t h e r e is a n S P C t h e y a r e

a b l e to b u il d c e r t a i n r i g h ts f o r t h e m s e lv e s .

S u c h t h a t th e y c a n

a d e q u a t e l y c o v e r t h e ms e lv e s a n d b e a b l e t o p r o v i d e a R a n d g u a r a n t e e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o t h e f in a n c in g w a s n o t i n

D o ll a r s . I t w a s s t il l i n – in R a n d s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
20

In Rands, yes.

Now the second aspect that

y o u r e f e r t o i n s o f a r a s fu n d i n g i s t h e B o m b a d ie r t r a n c h e . P l e a s e ta k e
t h e C h a ir th r o u g h t h a t .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s C h a ir a n d a s I in d i c a t e d

b e f o r e E D C c l u b b e d w it h In v e s te c t o p r o v i d e u s w i t h th e Z A R
e q u iv a l e n t o f U S $ 6 0 0 m i ll io n t o fi n a n c e t h e B o m b a d i e r tr a n c h e a n d
a g a in t h is C h a ir w a s a ls o w e ll p r ic e d .

I b e li e v e i t w a s a r o u n d J I B A R

Page 18 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
p l u s 2 0 0 o r j u s t a li t tl e b i t s o u t h o f 2 0 0 b u t i t w a s a ls o w i th i n r a n g e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h a t – w h a t w e r e t h e v a l u e te r m s o f th e
– t h e o ff e r s ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e v a l u e t e r m s – t h e r e is a

p r e s e n t a ti o n – i f y o u c a n ju s t …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Yo u s e t i t o u t a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 0 5 .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O h .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : I f y o u c a n b r i e f l y t a k e t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h th a t
as you have in your previous evidence heard yesterday spoken to most
10

o f t h e s e is s u e s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I t w a s a 1 4 y e a r tr a n s a c ti o n

C h a ir. Z A R e q u i v a l e n t a n d i t w a s w e ll p r ic e d e v e n t h e c o m m i t m e n t f e e s
w e w e r e c o m f o r ta b l e w i t h a n d t h e f r o n t e n d C h a ir t h e y w e r e a ll a l i g n e d .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h e f o l lo w i n g a s p e c ts y o u c o v e r i s in r e l a ti o n
t o t h e C S R a n d C N R tr a n c h e . P le a s e t a k e th e C h a ir t h r o u g h th is .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir t h e o n l y tr a n c h e t h a t w e

n e e d e d t o f i g u r e o u t h o w w e a r e g o in g t o f i n a n c e w a s t h e C h in a a n d
C h a ir b e c a u s e th e i r h o m e c o u n tr y d e v e l o p m e n t f in a n c e i n s ti t u ti o n h a d
in d i c a t e d s u p p o r t e d . S o w e n e e d e d t o – t o s t a r t w i t h t h e m a n d a s s e s s
20

if t h e y a r e a b l e t o p r o v i d e c o m p e t it iv e r a t e s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d w h e n d i d y o u s ta r t e n g a g i n g C D B

relevant to …?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

W e s t a r t e d e n g a g in g C D B i n

M a r c h a r o u n d t h e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e t h e – t h e s u p p li e r c o n tr a c ts w e r e
s ig n e d o n 1 7 M a r c h a n d C h a i r a s w e w e r e n e g o t ia t in g w i t h t h e m a n d

Page 19 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t a k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t m y e x p e r i e n c e w i t h o t h e r i n te r n a ti o n a l D F Is a n d i n
p a r t ic u l a r t h e J a p a n e s e J B I C a n d t h e F r e n c h t h e A F D a n d m y
e x p e r i e n c e is t h a t w it h t h e F r e n c h w e w e r e a b l e t o c o n c l u d e q u i c k l y
b e c a u s e i m m e d i a te ly a ft e r w e h a d a g r e e d t o p r o c e e d w e h a d a n u m b e r
o f – o f fa c e t o f a c e e n g a g e m e n ts a n d t h a t h e l p e d t o – t o s p e e d u p t h e
n e g o ti a ti o n s .

O n t h e o t h e r h a n d C h a ir w it h t h e J a p a n e s e w e s p e n t a

lo n g ti m e d is c u s s in g v i a c o n f e r e n c e c a l ls – y o u k n o w – v i d e o c a l ls a n d
e m a i ls a n d I o n ly r e a l is e d l a te r i n h in d s ig h t t h a t i n a c tu a l fa c t w e s p e n t
a lo n g ti m e b u t w e w e r e b a s ic a lly t a lk i n g p a s t o n e a n o t h e r a n d I c o u l d
10

o n ly t h in k t h a t i t is b e c a u s e w e r e d is c u s s in g o v e r e m a i l a n d o v e r t h e
p h o n e a n d y o u k n o w o v e r a p h o n e y o u a r e n o t a b le t o g e t t h e m e s s a g e
a c r o s s e s p e c i a lly b e c a u s e o f d i ff e r e n c e s in c u l t u r e a n d d i ff e r e n c e s i n
la n g u a g e .

S o I th o u g h t i t is b e t t e r t o h a v e f a c e – f a c e to f a c e

d is c u s s io n s a s s o o n a s p o s s i b l e . S o C h a ir a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d b e f o r e
w e s ta r t e d e n g a g in g w i t h t h e C h i n e s e a r o u n d M a r c h a n d i n A p r i l C h a i r
w e h a d a fe w m o r e e n g a g e m e n ts w i th t h e ir – w i t h t h e ir J o h a n n e s b u r g
b r a n c h C h a i r a n d e v e r y t i m e w e h a d e n g a g e m e n t s w it h t h e m C h a ir w e –
I m e a n – w e w e r e v e r y c le a r t h a t o u r p r e f e r e n c e i s f o r Z A R .

Th e

C a n a d i a n s w e r e h a p p y t o p r o v i d e Z A R . T h e A m e r ic a n s w e r e h a p p y t o
20

p r o v i d e Z A R b u t w e w e r e b a t tl in g w i t h th e C h i n e s e a n d t h e o ffic i a ls t h a t
a r e b a s e d in – i n J o h a n n e s b u r g k e p t o n s a y i n g t h a t t h e y n e e d t o r e f e r
b a c k t o B e ij in g f o r o u r r e q u e s t b u t C h a ir I – I t h o u g h t a t le a s t a t t h a t
p o i n t t h a t w e w e r e m a k in g s tr id e s b e c a u s e I w a s u n d e r th e i m p r e s s i o n
t h a t a t le a s t w e h a d c o m e t o a p o i n t w h e r e w e a r e a g r e e i n g o n c u r r e n c y
b u t a s f a r a s p r ic in g is c o n c e r n e d C h a i r th e y w e r e v e r y r ig i d .

Page 20 of 212

They

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w e r e s ti ll q u o t in g u s L I B O R p l u s 2 6 0 t o 2 9 0 b a s is p o i n ts w h i c h
tr a n s l a te d i n t o a r o u n d J I B A R p l u s 4 5 0 b a s is p o in ts w h ic h i s e x tr e m e ly
e x p e n s iv e a n d o v e r a n d a b o v e C h a ir th e i r c o m m i t m e n t fe e s w e r e v e r y
high.

T h e r e ( in d i s ti n c t) f e e s w e r e v e r y h i g h a n d – b u t I w a s v e r y

p a t ie n t a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p o in t i n t i m e C h a i r. I t h o u g h t th a t w e h a d j u s t
p a i d t h e b i d d e p o s i t a n d I t h o u g h t t h a t – y o u k n o w – w e s t il l h a v e t i m e
and if for any reason or the other we are behind with the negotiations
w e c o u l d a l w a y s t a p in t o t h e o t h e r f a c ili t i e s j u s t t o g e t - o n c e w e a r e
s t il l n e g o t ia t in g - w e a r e s ti ll fi n a l is i n g .
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d y o u – y o u m e n t io n e d L I B O R a n d

J I B A R a n d y o u h a v e – y o u h a v e s h o w n h o w L I B O R t r a n s la t e d to J I B A R .
C a n y o u b r i e f ly e x p l a i n th e t w o c o n c e p t s p l e a s e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir th e L I B O R i s t h e m o n e y

m a r k e t r a t e u s e d b y A m e r i c a n b a n k s o r i n A m e r ic a a n d J I B A R is t h e
e q u iv a l e n t in t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n m a r k e t . I t i s a – i t is a s h o r t t e r m r a t e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To w a r d s t h e e n d o f y o u r s e n te n c e y o u r v o ic e …
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O h .
CHAIRPERSON: Went down.
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

J I B A R C h a i r is a m o n e y m a r k e t

r a te t h a t i s u s e d b y b a n k s i n t h e l o c a l m a r k e t a n d L I B O R is t h e
e q u iv a l e n t in t h e U S .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d y o u s a y th a t C B D w a s i n s is ti n g o n

c e r t a i n r a t e s . D i d y o u r e c e i v e a n y w r i t t e n p r o p o s a l fr o m C B D i n th is –
in t h is r e s p e c t ?

Page 21 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s w e h a d a ti m e s h e e t C h a ir –
w e h a d a ti m e s h e e t t h a t w e w e r e w o r k i n g o n a n d C h a ir t h e y – t h e ir
ti m e s h e e t C h a i r - I a m n o w o n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 7 .

T h e ir ti m e s h e e t C h a i r

o v e r a n d a b o v e t h e e x p e n s i v e in t e r e s t r a t e t h a t t h e y w e r e q u o ti n g t h e ir
ti m e s h e e t C h a ir in c l u d e d o n e r o u s t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s th a t I f e l t t h a t
w e s h o u l d n o t a g r e e to s u c h t e r m s b e c a u s e C h a ir w h e n w e n e g o t ia t e
w i t h t h e l e n d e r s w e tr y o u r b e s t to a g r e e s i m il a r t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s .
T h e y m a y n o t b e e x a c t ly t h e s a m e b u t w e t a k e t h e c o n c e p t o f p a r i
p a s s u v e r y s e r io u s . W e d o n o t w a n t t o h a v e a n y p a r ti c u l a r l e n d e r b e i n g
10

g iv e n i n d ir e c tl y p r e fe r e n ti a l r ig h ts .

S o C h a ir - b u t a g a i n a s I h a v e

in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u k n o w w h e n s o m e o n e p r e s e n t s y o u w it h a ti m e s h e e t i t
is a ls o n e g o t ia b le . S o I w a s n o t t o o w o r r ie d a t th a t p o in t – i n i t ia ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u l d i m a g i n e h o w e v e r t h a t w h il e o n th e o n e h a n d
y o u w o u l d tr y a n d a c h i e v e m o r e o r le s s s t a n d a r d is e d t e r m s – y o u k n o w
– h o w fa r y o u d e v i a t e fr o m th e s ta n d a r d is e d te r m s m ig h t d e p e n d o n
w h a t a p a r t ic u l a r l e n d e r o ff e r s y o u a n d h o w s tr o n g t h e y a r e o n t h e ir
p r o d u c t a n d h o w m u c h y o u w a n t th e ir p r o d u c t a n d s o o n . S o - b e c a u s e
it i s n e g o ti a ti o n s . I f – i f o n e p a r ty d o e s n o t k n o w h o w to n e g o ti a te t h e y
m i g h t g iv e y o u – y o u k n o w – t h e c h e a p e s t p r ic e fo r s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u
20

n e e d v e r y m u c h a n d a n o th e r o n e k n o w s h o w t o n e g o ti a t e a n d th e y
s t a n d fi r m o n c e r t a i n th i n g s a n d t h e n y o u – y o u a g r e e .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s C h a ir b u t t h i n g s li k e y o u r

fi n a n c i a l c o v e n a n ts w e h a d m a d e a n in f o r m a l p o l ic y th a t w e w il l n o t
g iv e o u t fi n a n c i a l c o v e n a n ts a n d w e d id n o t g iv e o u t to a n y o f o u r
d o m e s ti c f u n d e r s a n d t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n w h y w e s h o u ld g iv e t h e m to

Page 22 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e C h i n e s e a n d a g a in C h a ir th i n g s li k e t h e c r e d i t r a t in g th e y s h o u l d b e
standardised

C h a ir.

Things

lik e

your

–

your

default

clauses

( I n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: So there are certain basics?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h e r e a r e c e r t a i n b a s ic s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h a t e v e n th o u g h t h e r e w i ll b e

d i ff e r e n c e s f r o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O n e fa c i li ty t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e r e a r e c e r t a i n b a s ic s C h a ir

that you know …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y t h e r e i s n o r e a s o n t o d e v i a t e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h e r e i s n o r e a s o n to d e v i a t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
20

A n d C h a ir t h e s ti c k i n g p o in t in

t h is i n s t a n c e w a s t h e fi n a n c i a l c o v e n a n ts .

O k a y th e r e w e r e o th e r

c la u s e s t h a t I fe l t w e r e – w e r e t o o o n e r o u s b u t t h e f in a n c i a l c o v e n a n t s
C h a ir I j u s t fe l t t h a t w e h a v e r e f u s e d to g iv e o u r o th e r fu n d e r s t h e s e
c la u s e s – y o u k n o w – t h e s e c o v e n a n ts a n d w h y s h o u l d w e a l lo w –
b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h a t w h e n y o u n e g o ti a t e y o u a r e n e g o t ia t in g in g o o d
faith …

Page 23 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d y o u g i v e o t h e r l e n d e r s j u s t
y o u r w o r d b e c a u s e t h e y c a n n e v e r t e ll w h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o n e g o ti a te
in f u t u r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d w h e n y o u n e g o ti a te y o u

n e g o ti a te k n o w i n g w h a t h a s b e e n n e g o ti a t e d i n t h e p a s t a n d y o u
n e g o ti a te k n o w i n g w h a t is c o m in g in t h e f u t u r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d y o u w a n t to d a y, y e s te r d a y

a n d to m o r r o w t o b e a l ig n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e o t h e r w is e y o u – w h a t e v e r y o u a g r e e o n

t o d a y m ig h t b e a p r e c e d e n t f o r th e f u t u r e .

Some people say but you

d i d a g r e e w i th s o a n d s o o n t h is .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So why do you not agree with us?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

H m , s o y o u h a v e g o t t o k e e p y o u r e y e o n th o s e

things?
20

M S M A H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d Tr a n s n e t w o u l d h a v e h a d a p r ic i n g

b a s is u p o n w h ic h th e y e n t e r in t o n e g o t ia t io n s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Can you please turn to page 156 of the same

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
exhibit – BB10A.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir a s I in d i c a t e d p r e v i o u s ly

we (intervenes).
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : B e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d m a ’ a m .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : W e h a d a t e a m o f …
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Ms Makgatho are you at 156?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
10

O k a y.

Ye s c o u n s e l .

As I

in d i c a t e d b e f o r e w e h a d a v e r y s tr o n g t e a m o f f in a n c e p r o fe s s i o n a ls
a n d w e h a d o u r o w n d e a li n g t e a m a n d C h a ir w h e n w e r e c e i v e d t h i s
p r i c i n g o u r – o u r r e f e r e n c e p o i n t a l w a y s w a s to g o to o u r d e a l e r s a n d
r e q u e s t a n e q u iv a l e n t Z A R p r i c i n g a n d C h a ir o n 2 2 A p r il 2 0 1 4 a s p e r
p a g e 1 5 6 I r e q u e s t e d p r i c i n g fr o m o u r d e a l e r s a n d I a m g o i n g t o r e fe r
y o u to o n l y t h e 1 5 y e a r - t h e o n e .

S o L I B O R p r ic e d a t 2 6 5 w a s

e q u iv a l e n t to s ix m o n th s J I B A R p lu s 4 1 7 b a s i s p o i n ts . C h a ir a s I h a v e
in d i c a t e d t h is w a s w a y o u t o f li n e t o o u r n o r m a l p r i c i n g a n d I u s e d t h i s
p r i c i n g t o s h o w – a n d t h e s i g n a t u r e h e r e C h a ir is M r S in g h ’s s i g n a t u r e
a n d t h is is h is h a n d w r it i n g a n d h e is s a y i n g u p d a t e s o o n p l e a s e , ja . I
20

t h i n k t h a t is w h a t h e is s a y i n g – b e c a u s e I h a d g i v e n h i m t h is – y o u
k n o w – t o s h o w th a t t h i s is e x p e n s i v e . C h a ir o u r i n t e r n a l p r ic i n g – w e
h a v e u s e d o u r i n t e r n a l p r ic i n g o v e r a n d o v e r a n d o v e r a n d i t – i t h a s
p r o v e d t o b e c o r r e c t a n d a t a r o u n d t h e s a m e t i m e C h a ir w h a t w e w o u l d
n o r m a l ly d o is t h a t o v e r a n d a b o v e d o in g o u r o w n i n te r n a l p r i c i n g w e
w i ll a ls o c h e c k w i t h th e b a n k s a n d i n t h i s in s t a n c e C h a i r w e c h e c k e d

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w i t h S t a n d a r d B a n k a n d o u r p r i c i n g w a s a li g n e d to S t a n d a r d B a n k a n d –
a n d w e u s e d th a t a s a m o t iv a ti o n – y o u k n o w – t o s a y th a t h e r e i s o u r
p r i c i n g i t s h o w s t h a t t h e C D B p r ic in g is o u t o f l i n e a n d b y th e w a y w e
h a v e c h e c k e d w i t h t h e b a n k s S t a n d a r d B a n k is a ls o a l i g n e d a n d w e
t h i n k t h a t w e n e e d t o n e g o t ia t e v e r y h a r d f a i li n g w h ic h – y o u k n o w – w e
c a n u s e o t h e r o p t i o n s . As I i n d ic a t e d w e h a d a b o u t e ig h t o p t i o n s th a t
w e r e a v a i l a b le t o u s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d t h i s d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 1 5 6 w h ic h

r e fl e c ts t h e – Tr a n s n e t ’s i n te r n a l p r ic i n g is d a t e d 2 2 A p r i l 2 0 1 4 ?
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d y o u s a y t h a t M r S in g h s i g n e d o n t h e

p r i n t o u t o f t h a t e m a il ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : R e q u e s ti n g C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

R e q u e s t in g y o u t o u p d a t e a s s o o n a s

p o s s i b le .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h e r e – d i d y o u u p d a t e w h a t i s r e f le c te d
on page 156?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir. W e u p d a t e d i t C h a ir
20

a n d h e k e p t o n s a y i n g th a t R e g i m e n t s s a y s t h e y c a n g e t t h is p r ic i n g
c h e a p e r.

In a c tu a l f a c t t h e y p r o v id e d a p r o p o s a l a n d t h e y s a i d t h a t

t h e y h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i t h N e d b a n k a n d N e d b a n k is a b l e to p r ic e th is a t
a r o u n d 1 2 0 b a s is p o in t s c h e a p e r. C h a i r w h e n y o u a s k fo r p r ic i n g a t a n y
p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n ti m e w h a t w e n o r m a l ly d o i s t o tr y t o g e t t h e b e s t
p o s s i b le p r ic i n g g iv e n c u r r e n t m a r k e t c i r c u m s t a n c e s a n d i f a n y o n e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
c o m e s a n d s a y s t h a t t h e y c a n p r o v i d e y o u p r ic i n g th a t is lik e 1 2 0 b a s is
p o i n t s o r 1 0 0 . A t s o m e p o i n t it w il l b e 1 3 5 b a s i s p o i n t s o ff m a r k e t . Yo u
a lr e a d y k n o w th a t th e r e i s n o tr u t h i n th a t – y o u k n o w. S o m e o n e c a n b e
c h e a p e r a n d s a y m a y b e fi v e p o in t s o r 1 0 p o i n ts b u t 1 3 5 p o i n ts y o u
a lr e a d y k n o w th a t th is i s n o t t r u e a n d – a n d h e - w e k e p t o n n o w – t h is
b e c a m e a th o r n b e c a u s e I w o u ld a r g u e th a t i t is e x p e n s iv e a n d h e w il l
c o m e b a c k a n d s a y b u t N e d b a n k c a n p r o v id e th is a t a m u c h c h e a p e r
R a n d – a t m u c h c h e a p e r r a t e a n d t h e y a r e w o r k in g w i th – w i th
R e g i m e n t s o n p r o v id i n g a c h e a p e r r a te . C h a ir a c h e a p e r r a t e c a n o n ly
10

b e p r o v i d e d i f y o u a r e s tr u c t u r i n g a c r o s s c u r r e n c y s w a p a n d y o u a r e
o v e r l a y i n g s o m e c o m p le x c r e d i t e n h a n c e r s .
enhancers.

W e c a ll t h e m c r e d i t

T h e n y o u c a n p r o v i d e i t c h e a p e r b u t t h e n i t h a s i ts o w n

a c c o u n t in g i m p l ic a ti o n s , i n s is ti n g i m p lic a ti o n s o f – s o – s o i t w i ll n e e d a
d i ff e r e n t e x e r c is e o f a s s e s s m e n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t it w il l n o t b r i n g i n
u n n e c e s s a r y v o la t il it y i n t o o u r i n c o m e s t a te m e n t .

S o i f i t is a p l a i n

v a n i ll a a n d s o m e o n e c o m e s a n d s a y s n o I c a n p r o v id e th is a t 1 2 0 , 1 0 0
y o u a lr e a d y k n o w t h a t n o w w e a r e e n t e r in g v e r y d i ff e r e n t t e r r it o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t th e y s a y N e d b a n k c a n p r o v i d e i t c h e a p e r. Yo u d o
n o t b e li e v e w h a t th e y a r e s a y in g .
20

Yo u d o n o t b e li e v e w h a t th e y a r e

s a y in g b e c a u s e o f t h e d i ffe r e n c e i n ( i n t e r v e n e s )
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

J a , I d o n o t b e l i e v e C h a ir

because …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : H u h - u h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w – b u t w h a t I a m w o n d e r in g i s w h e t h e r – w h e th e r

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
in t h a t s i tu a ti o n th e r i g h t t o a p p r o a c h is n o t t o s a y w e ll le t N e d b a n k
g iv e y o u th a t in w r it i n g w h e t h e r y o u – i t i s n o t t h e w a y t o c h a ll e n g e
t h e m a n d s e e w h e t h e r t h e y c a n c o m e b a c k w i t h s o m e t h in g f r o m
N e d b a n k th a t s a y s y e s w e w il l p r o v i d e t h is a n d t h is i s h o w w e w i ll
p r o v i d e i t a n d t h e n y o u c a n a s s e s s th is t o s e e – a s s e s s i t to s e e
w h e t h e r i t w i ll b e v i a b l e i n t e r m s o f t h e w h o l e n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d p r o j e c ts
that you are working on.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir la t e r o n I d i d e x a c t ly th a t
…
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

B e c a u s e C h a ir w h e n s o m e o n e

c o m e s w i t h f la w e d p r i c i n g I t h o u g h t th a t h e w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t I a m
t a lk in g a b o u t b e c a u s e t h e m a r k e t i s th e m a r k e t C h a ir.

I f th e R a n d i s

tr a d i n g a t R 1 5 t o d a y t o t h e D o l la r a n d s o m e o n e s a y s th a t to d a y t h e y
c a n d o t h e s a m e tr a d e a t R 1 2 . 5 0 y o u a l r e a d y k n o w t h a t t h e r e is n o
tr u th i n t h a t . S o i n i t ia ll y w e ju s t – I w il l j u s t p u t m y m o t iv a ti o n a n d my
p o s i ti o n a n d s a y i t c a n n o t b e p o s s i b le b e c a u s e o f A , B , C , D …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : B u t th e n i t k e p t o n g o in g o n a n d
20

a t s o m e p o i n t I k n o w th a t t h e r e w a s a p r e s e n ta t io n . I d o n o t k n o w i f I
have it here. I am not sure if it is part of the pack. Wherein Regiments
s a i d L I B O R p l u s 2 5 7 c a n b e p r ic e d a t J I B A R p lu s 3 3 7 .

C h a ir a t t h i s

p o i n t in t i m e I t h i n k i t w a s a r o u n d J u n e a n d I t h i n k a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e
w e w e r e p r ic in g a t a r o u n d 4 5 0 . S o i t tr a n s c e n d e d a r o u n d 1 2 0 …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : D i ff e r e n t ia l …
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

M s M a k g a t h o d o s p e a k t o i s s u e s r e l a ti n g to

t h e N e d b a n k p r ic in g i n l a t e r a s p e c ts o f y o u r p a r a g r a p h .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : H m .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

H o w e v e r w h a t y o u d e a l w i th fir s t is y o u r

in t e r a c ti o n w i th C D B i n r e l a ti o n t o Tr a n s n e t r e q u e s ti n g t h e m to r e v i e w
t h e ir p r ic i n g a n d a s y o u h a v e s t a t e d t h is d i d n o t s u c c e e d .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h i s d id n o t s u c c e e d C h a ir a n d

w h a t th e J o h a n n e s b u r g b r a n c h h a d a s k e d u s …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , h a n g o n , h a n g o n . I t h i n k s h e is tr y i n g t o d e a l
w i t h m y q u e s ti o n o n w h y s h e d i d n o t s a y p r o v i d e m e w i t h s o m e t h i n g i n
w r i t in g fr o m N e d b a n k .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h a t is e x a c t ly w h a t w e d i d b u t

t h a t i s la t e r o n . I th in k w e d id t h a t a r o u n d A u g u s t . H e r e C h a ir w e a r e
s t il l a r o u n d A p r i l / M a y /J u n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h u lt i m a t e ly y o u d i d i t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : U l ti m a t e l y C h a ir I d i d t h a t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : L a t e r o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I k n o w y o u w il l d e a l w i t h i t l a te r o n …
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: But I want to know nothing was produced?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir w h a t I d i d is I c a l le d o u r

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
R e l a t i o n s h i p M a n a g e r. A t t h a t p o i n t i t w a s M r M n g a d i …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

And I told him that I was not

happy of what at that point in time I thought it was an improper
r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n R e g i m e n t s a n d N e d b a n k b e c a u s e C h a ir o v e r ti m e
R e g i m e n t s w il l c o m e w i th c e r t a i n p r o p o s a ls a s I h a v e in d i c a t e d
y e s t e r d a y a n d a t th e b a c k o f th o s e p r o p o s a ls t h e r e w a s a l w a y s o n e
c o m m o n b a n k a n d t h a t w a s N e d b a n k a n d C h a ir a g a i n I a m h a v i n g m a n y,
m a n y d i s a g r e e m e n t s w i t h my b o s s a n d a g a in t h e c o s t o f t h i s a g r e e m e n t
10

a g a in it is a p r ic in g th a t is c o m i n g f r o m N e d b a n k v ia R e g i m e n ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d s o C h a ir I c a l l e d a g a i n I

w a s lik e I a m n o t h a p p y w i th th is r e l a t i o n s h i p b e c a u s e it i s n o t a g o o d
r e l a ti o n s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t w h a t y o u e x p e c t e d i t t o b e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s .

S o – a n d i n a c t u a l fa c t I

w a n t e d to ta lk t o t h e C E O o f N e d b a n k d ir e c tl y b e c a u s e I w a s j u s t n o t
happy because …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

We

were

fi g h t in g

in t e r n a ll y

b e c a u s e o f N e d b a n k C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o I c a l l e d m y c o ll e a g u e –

M r M n g a d i – a n d h e s a i d th a t h e w i ll s p e a k w i t h t h e C E O o n m y b e h a l f .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I r e la y e d th e – t h e m e s s a g e a n d
t h a t – b e c a u s e i n o u r p r e v io u s d is c u s s i o n s C h a ir w i t h R e g i m e n ts i t
b e c a m e c l e a r th a t t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s e n g a g i n g w i t h R e g i m e n ts fr o m
N e d b a n k ’s s i d e is M o s s Br ic k m a n w h o a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : M o s s B r i c k m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Mr B r ic k m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

W h o a t t h a t ti m e w o r k e d fo r

N e d b a n k Tr e a s u r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : S o I r e l a y e d t h e m e s s a g e to t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p p e r s o n a n d I – I a m t o l d t h a t w h e n I r e la y e d t h a t m e s s a g e I
b e li e v e t h e N e d b a n k E x e c u tiv e Te a m w e r e h a v i n g a s tr a te g y s e s s i o n a t
S u n C i t y a n d I b e l i e v e t h a t a m e e t in g w a s h e l d b e tw e e n th e C E O o f
N e d b a n k C a p it a l M r Br ia n K e n n e d y, t h e H e a d o f C o m p li a n c e a n d
M r ( i n d is t in c t)

–

I

th in k

–

and

I

b e l ie v e

th a t

at

that

m e e ti n g

M r M o s s B r i c k m a n w a s c h a s ti s e d b e c a u s e I w a s l ik e i t c a n n o t b e r i g h t
20

t h a t w e k n o w w h e r e th e m a r k e t is b u t I a m t o l d o v e r a n d o v e r t h a t
N e d b a n k is a b l e t o p r o v i d e a p l a in v a n i ll a , s a m e t y p e o f tr a n s a c ti o n ,
s a m e t e n u r e , s a m e D o ll a r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Pr ic in g a t lik e 1 2 0 to 1 3 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 31 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I k n o w t h a t i t i s a l ie . I t w i ll n o t
happen.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. O k a y n o t h a t i s f in e .

I thought it might be a

q u ic k a n s w e r, y e s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id n o t p r o d u c e o r n o t .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w il l e l a b o r a t e f u r t h e r w h e n y o u r e a c h t h a t – t h a t
it e m . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

T h e n e x t t o p ic th a t y o u

d e a l w it h r e l a ti v e t o C D B a n d y o u r n e g o ti a ti o n s th r o u g h Tr a n s n e t is
w h a t y o u h a v e ti tl e d a t r i p t o C h i n a .

W h a t g a v e r i s e to t h is tr i p t o

China?
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e b a c k to t h e s t a t e m e n t?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s C h a ir. W e a r e b a c k t o t h e s t a t e m e n t a t
page 29.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 29?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I th o u g h t i t

w o u ld b e e a s i e r to g o to B e ij in g a n d h a v e f a c e to f a c e d i s c u s s io n s s o
that

we

can

fast track

the

n e g o t ia t io n s .

I

th e r e fo r e

wrote

a

m e m o r a n d u m f o r a p p r o v a l to g o t o – t o g o t o C h i n a a n d I h a d
s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e d e le g a ti o n b e m a d e u p o f m y s e l f , t h e G C F O a n d t h e
G C E a n d t h e m e m o r a n d u m w a s a p p r o v e d t o w a r d s th e e n d o f A p r i l .

Page 32 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C h a ir i n i t ia lly w e h a d p l a n n e d to v is it B e ij i n g a r o u n d 1 6 A p r i l a n d C h a ir
a t th a t p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n t i m e w e w e r e a ls o p l a n n i n g t o h a v e a
r o a d s h o w i n th e M i d d l e E a s t a n d th e F a r E a s t . F o r th e M i d d l e E a s t w e
d i d g o a r o u n d A p r il a n d f o r t h e F a r E a s t w e c o u l d n o t g o . C h a ir w h a t
w o u ld n o r m a l ly h a p p e n is t h a t w h e n y o u g o y o u t a k e t h a t lo n g tr ip . Yo u
n o r m a l ly w a n t t o o p t i m is e t h e t r i p a n d g e n e r a ll y y o u – y o u w i ll i n c l u d e
o th e r m e e t i n g s .

S o w e w a n t e d – I h a d r e c o m m e n d e d th a t w e g o t o

B e ij in g b u t c o m b i n e th a t w i t h - w it h s t a k e h o l d e r m e e ti n g s in H o n g K o n g
a n d S i n g a p o r e . S o H S B C h a d a g r e e d t o a s s is t u s t o s e t u p m e e ti n g s
10

for free.

I m e a n – i t is p a r t o f th e i r v a l u e a d d .

S o C h a ir w e – w e

p r e p a r e d fo r th e w e e k o f 1 6 A p r il a n d a f e w d a y s b e f o r e t h e m e e t i n g I
w a s t o ld t h a t t h e G C E h a d c a n c e l l e d t h e m e e t in g . S o …
CHAIRPERSON: The GCE?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s th e G C E C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B y t h e w a y w a s h e g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f – o f th e

m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir. N o r m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a t w a s s ti ll M r M o l e fe ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e t h r e e o f
us.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh including Mr Singh?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 33 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

We then rescheduled for the

w e e k o f 1 2 M a y. A g a i n w e w a n t e d to – t o v is i t H o n g K o n g a s w e l l a n d
S i n g a p o r e . W e p l a n n e d a c c o r d i n g l y a n d a f e w d a y s b e f o r e t h e m e e ti n g
I w a s t o l d a g a i n th a t th e G C E h a s c a n c e ll e d .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : W e r e y o u t o l d w h y th e tr i p s w e r e c a n c e ll e d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : By t h e G C F O .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Pardon?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : By t h e G C F O .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

W h y w e r e y o u t o l d w h y t h e tr ip s w e r e

c a n c e l le d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e r e a s o n .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d d id y o u e v e n t u a l ly u n d e r t a k e t h e tr i p t o
China?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ev e n tu a l ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. O n b o th o c c a s i o n s y o u w e r e n o t t o l d th e
reason?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e

exact reason.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r y o u w e r e to ld o r n o t ?
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I c a n n o t – m a y b e i t w a s lik e –

y o u k n o w – s o m e t h in g u r g e n t c a m e u p …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : B u t it w a s j u s t a v a g u e r e a s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir w e th e n r e s c h e d u l e d fo r

Page 34 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e t h ir d ti m e a n d t h i s t i m e a r o u n d I d e c id e d th a t I a m n o t g o in g to
in c l u d e a n y o n e . I a m n o t g o i n g to a s k a n y o n e t o h e l p m e – y o u k n o w s e t u p m e e t in g s b e c a u s e I a m b e i n g e m b a r r a s s e d o v e r a n d o v e r a n d i t
is v e r y d i ff ic u l t to – to a r r a n g e a n d c a n c e l , a r r a n g e a n d c a n c e l . I m e a n
it d o e s n o t – y o u k n o w – b o d e w e l l .

S o I th o u g h t o k a y w e w i ll j u s t

f o c u s o n C D B a n d a g a i n C h a ir a f e w d a y s b e f o r e t h e m e e t in g I w a s t o l d
t h a t t h e G C E w a s c a n c e ll e d . C h a ir I c o u ld n o t – I w a s n o t h a p p y a b o u t
– w i t h t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e I ju s t f e l t t h a t th e y w e r e m a k in g m y j o b
v e r y d i ff ic u l t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Th is ti m e d i d y o u s ti ll p la n t o ta k e t h e m w i t h y o u o r

did you (intervenes)?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir. It w a s s til l s u p p o s e d
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t y o u …
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : To b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e g o in g to b e m o r e h a n d s - o n i n t e r m s o f t h e
a r r a n g e m e n t.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
H S B C t h is t i m e a r o u n d .
20

Ye s C h a ir, I d id n ’t i n v o l v e

S o C h a ir I w a s t o l d a g a i n th a t t h e tr i p is

c a n c e l le d , i t ’s fo r t h e t h ir d t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e m a i n p u r p o s e o f y o u r – o f t h e tr ip w a s f o r

y o u t o h a v e a fa c e - t o - f a c e m e e t in g … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

N e g o t ia t io n s .

N e g o ti a ti o n s a n d y o u r m o s t i m p o r t a n t is s u e w a s

pricing.

Page 35 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

It w a s p r ic i n g , t e r ms , c u r r e n c y,

it w a s th e w h o l e t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y a lr i g h t y e s .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o I w a s t o l d a g a i n th a t th e tr i p

is c a n c e ll e d , C h a ir I w a s j u s t – I w a s n o t h a p p y s o I w e n t th r o u g h t o Mr
M o le f e a n d b i t t e r l y c o m p l a i n e d th a t t h e y a r e m a k i n g m y j o b d i ff ic u l t a n d
I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w t h e y e x p e c t m e to e x e c u t e m y r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s i f th e y
a r e th e o n e s w h o a r e fr u s tr a t i n g m e . S o h e s a id , o k a y, y o u a n d A n o j
can go, so we proceeded as planned.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t n o w t h is w o u l d b e f o u r t h … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h i s w o u l d b e t h e t h ir d t i m e

C h a ir, t h e y w a n te d to c a n c e l t h e t h i r d ti m e a n d I i n t e r v e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u w e n t to s p e a k t o h e r t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f o r

t h e t h ir d o n e h a d n o t ta k e n p l a c e … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e y w e r e c a n c e l li n g a n d I

c o m p la i n e d a n d th e s t o p p e d t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay and he said you and the GCFO could go?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y a lr ig h t .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o C h a ir w e w e n t a n d I b e li e v e

t h e m e e ti n g h a p p e n e d o n th e 1 s t o f J u ly 2 0 1 4 a n d C h a ir y o u w i ll
r e m e m b e r th a t I h a d s a id th a t w e s ta r t e d a r o u n d M a r c h , w e w o r k e d w i t h
our internal legal team and when the CDB wanted us to give them our
t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s , w e t h o u g h t , l e t ’s d r a ft a f a c il i ty – a d r a f t fa c i li ty
a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e t h e r e te r ms w e r e o n e r o u s .

Page 36 of 212

So our legal team

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a p p o i n t e d a n e x t e r n a l la w f ir m a n d w e h a d d r a f t e d – s o w e h a d o u r
in t e r n a l t e a m o n b o a r d , o u r e x t e r n a l l e g a l te a m o n b o a r d , o u r tr e a s u r y
team me mbers were on board, we were all working on this.

So I

a s s u m e d t h a t t h e s a m e t h i n g w a s h a p p e n i n g i n B e i ji n g b e c a u s e w e
w e r e e n g a g i n g w i t h t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g t e a m a n d w e h a d p r o v id e d th e m
t h e d r a f t f a c i li t y, w e h a d p r o v i d e d t h e m w it h w h a t w e t h o u g h t w e r e
a c c e p ta b l e c o m m e r c ia l t e r m s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d ju s t t o tr y a n d g e t w h e r e w e a r e

n o w c o m p a r e d to t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w e r e g iv i n g y e s te r d a y, y o u t o l d m e
10

y e s t e r d a y h o w y o u t h o u g h t a t s o m e s t a g e M r S in g h w a s n ’ t r e c e p tiv e
t o w a r d s y o u r p r e s e n c e in t h e n e g o ti a ti o n t e a m a n d y o u r e a c h e d a p o i n t
w h e r e y o u w i t h d r e w. A s a t th e t i m e o f t h i s tr i p t o C h i n a w h a t w a s y o u r
r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h h i m ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

It w a s s ti ll v o l a ti le b u t t h e

r e fe r e n c e t h a t I w a s m a k i n g t o C h a ir y e s t e r d a y i t w a s o n t h e s u p p l i e r
a g r e e m e n t , n o w w e a r e n e g o ti a ti n g t h e f i n a n c i n g a g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o t h is is a tr e a s u r y m a n d a t e .

Ye s s o t h e r e w a s n o p a r ti c u la r p r o b l e m i n r e g a r d t o

t h is ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

As far as I knew we were in

c h a r g e – t h e t r e a s u r y t e a m w e r e w o r k i n g , t h e l e g a l te a m a n d e v e r y th i n g
w a s g o i n g fi n e a s f a r a s I t h o u g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o C h a i r w e g o to C h in a , w e –

Page 37 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
it w a s j u s t m e a n d th e G C F O a n d t h e m e e t in g s ta r t e d a t a r o u n d h a l f
p a s t e i g h t C h a ir, a n d a s w e w e r e d o i n g t h e i n t r o d u c ti o n , a y o u n g
Chinese

o ff ic ia l

went

around

w i th

a

page

that

had

a

li s t

of

n a m e s … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

A li s t o f?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

N a m e s , ja .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A li s t o f n a m e s .

A n d t i tl e s .

Ye s .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I b e l ie v e i t ’s t h e n a m e s fo r C B D

e x h i b i t iv e s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C a n w e g o t o p a g e 1 6 0 o f t h a t b u n d l e w h ic h

appears under Annexure 23, page 160.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s 1 6 0 o f B B 1 0 A ?

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s C h a ir a n d i t a p p e a r s u n d e r A n n e x u r e

M M 2 3 , a r e y o u t h e r e m a ’a m ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h a t d o c u m e n t a p p e a r s o n th a t p a g e ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s I a m .

I t ’s a n a m e lis t .

I s t h i s t h e lis t y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d th e C h a i r

to?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Correct counsel.

Ye s , n o w o n t h is l is t th e r e a r e s e v e r a l

names that appear and you say that these – according to your
k n o w l e d g e w e r e a ll o ffi c i a l s o f C D B ?

Page 38 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I a s s u m e s o C h a ir b e c a u s e a t

t h e e n d o f th e ti t le i t’s w r i t t e n C D B a n d I b e l ie v e t h e h e a d o f ( in d i s ti n c t)
is Mr L e g a n g a s w r i t t e n h e r e C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d w h a t i s t h e d a te t h e y ’ r e c a r r y i n g o n

t h a t l is t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e d a te i s t h e 2 9 t h o f O c t o b e r

2013.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d y o u a r e in C h in a o n t h e 1 s t o f J u ly

2014.
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s .

A r e t h e r e a n y Tr a n s n e t e m p l o y e e s o r

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s t h a t a p p e a r o n th a t l is t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

N o C h a ir.

W h e n t h e l is t w a s h a n d e d o u t w a s t h e r e a n y

in d i c a t io n g iv e n a s t o w h a t th e l is t r e l a te s t o ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

N o C h a ir I a c t u a lly t h o u g h t i t

w a s a m is t a k e , I t h o u g h t t h a t h e w il l r e t r i e v e t h e l is t . S o C h a ir, j u s t b y
lo o k in g a t t h e d e m e a n o u r o f e v e r y o n e , t h e y s e e m e d a l l c o m f o r t a b le ,
w h e n g iv e n t h is li s t a n d I c o u l d n ’ t q u i t e r e l a te t h is l is t b e c a u s e I
20

t h o u g h t , y o u k n o w, t h e 2 9 t h o f O c t o b e r a n d t h e d a te is t h e 1 s t o f J u ly,
w h a t ’s th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n t h i s li s t a n d th e m e e ti n g t h a t w e a r e
h a v i n g a n d I c o u ld o n l y a s s u m e t h a t m a y b e t h e y a r e b e in g r e m i n d e d o f
d is c u s s io n s t h a t h a p p e n e d o n th is d a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d t h e p e r s o n s a p p e a r i n g o n t h i s l is t w e r e

t h e y p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e t in g o f t h e 1 s t o f J u ly 2 0 1 4 , w h ic h m e e t in g y o u

Page 39 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a tt e n d e d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I – t h e t r e a s u r y o ffic ia l w h o w a s

t h e r e , C h a ir – I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r e a c h o n e o f th e m b u t I t h i n k m o s t o f
t h e m w e r e th e r e b u t th e h e a d o f H e n n i n g B r a n c h w a s d e f in i te ly t h e r e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s , a n d if , in d e e d a m e e ti n g h a d ta k e n

p l a c e o n t h e 2 9 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 , w o u l d t r e a s u r y h a v e h a d to b e i n
a tt e n d a n c e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

N o t n e c e s s a r i ly d e p e n d i n g o n

w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d .
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h is p a p e r t h a t t h is o ffi c i a l –

C h i n e s e o ffi c i a l w a s c ir c u l a ti n g , d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d i t to c o n ta i n – t o b e
in t e n d e d a s a d o c u m e n t t h a t t o l d y o u w h o t h e p e o p l e w e r e w i t h w h o m
you were meeting?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

What was your understanding of what it was meant to

represent?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t –

b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h a t – w h e n w e s t a r t e d w e d id th e i n t r o d u c ti o n s a n d
20

w h e n w e w e r e d o i n g t h e in tr o d u c ti o n s th e r e w a s n o r e f e r e n c e t o
w h o e v e r w a s i n tr o d u c in g h i m s e l f o r h e r s e l f to t h i s li s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

So th is w a s a l is t t h a t w a s

p r o v i d e d t o e a c h o n e o f u s d u r i n g th a t ti m e , I t h i n k i m m e d ia t e l y
t h e r e a f te r, a r o u n d t h a t ti m e C h a ir. S o t h e r e w a s n o – a n d t h e p e o p l e

Page 40 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h a t w e r e in a tt e n d a n c e a t t h a t m e e ti n g , t h e r e w e r e m a n y C h a ir, I d o n ’ t
k n o w, m a y b e 1 5 a n d th is o n e I t h in k is u n d e r 1 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h a t I’ m t r y i n g t o e s t a b li s h is y o u d i d g a i n a n

u n d e r s t a n d in g a s t o w h y y o u w e r e b e i n g g iv e n t h is d o c u m e n t a n d fo r
w h a t p u r p o s e o r is t h e p o s i t io n th a t y o u d i d n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d w h y ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I d id n ’t u n d e r s t a n d w h y a n d I

didn’t ask I just checked the mood.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d y o u s a id s o m e th i n g a b o u t t h e r e a c ti o n

o f … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e y w e r e a l l c h i ll e d C h a ir, i t

was normal, it was, you know…(intervention).
CHAIRPERSON:

Ev e n w i th M r Si n g h ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ev e r y b o d y w a s h a p p y s o I

n o t e d i t w i t h i n te r e s t b e c a u s e I c h e c k e d t h e d a te , I k n e w w e w e r e o n
t h e 1 s t o f J u ly a n d e v e r y b o d y e l s e w a s c h ill e d , s o I c o u l d o n ly w o n d e r
w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d , w h a t d o e s th is r e p r e s e n t a n d w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d
a n d i f s o m e o n e fr o m Tr a n s n e t w a s p r e s e n t, w h o w a s t h a t p e r s o n a n d
p r o b a b ly t h e r e a r e c e r ta in a g r e e m e n t s , y o u k n o w, t h a t h a p p e n e d b u t I
c o u l d o n ly n o t e i t a n d s p e c u la t e a n d I d i d n ’ t e v e n a s k m y c o ll e a g u e M r
20

Anoj.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d a t t h e m e e t in g w a s t h is l is t e v e r r e f e r r e d

to?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

N o C h a ir.

Okay what then happened?

Page 41 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir 3 0 m i n u te s i n t o th e

m e e ti n g th e n t h e C li ff o r d C h a n c e l a w y e r s c a m e i n l a t e , I g e t – I g o t t o
k n o w d u r i n g te a t i m e t h a t i n t h e ( in d is ti n c t ) t h e y w e r e c a ll e d t h a t s a m e
m o r n in g .

R e m e m b e r t h a t o u r l e g a l t e a m w a s n o w o n b o a r d fo r t w o

m o n th s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th e y ’d b e e n w o r k in g w i th y o u o n th is w h o l e

tr a n s a c ti o n .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O n t h is w h o l e t r a n s a c t io n fo r

a b o u t t w o m o n t h s , w e g e t t o B e ij in g t h e y o n ly c a l l e d t h e le g a l t e a m th a t
10

s a m e m o r n i n g a n d in a c tu a l f a c t t h e l a w y e r s w e r e b r ie f e d i n t h e l i f t o n
t h e ir

way

to

the

meeting.

I

was

lik e ,

okay

t h is

is

in t e r e s ti n g …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w l o n g h a d i t ta k e n t o a r r a n g e t h is m e e ti n g , I

mean the Chinese had known was coming up.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Fr o m A p r il .

Ye s a n d n o w t h i s w a s J u ly ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h i s w a s J u l y n o w. S o C h a ir, w e

t h e n p r o c e e d w i th th e b u s in e s s o f th e d a y a n d C h a ir b y t h e n – b e c a u s e
w e h a v e h a d a n u m b e r o f e n g a g e m e n t s w it h t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g t e a m , I
20

thought that at least we had made progress on one item, I thought that
t h e C h in e s e h a d a g r e e d a t l e a s t to d o – t o o ff e r Z A R i n s t e a d o f D o ll a r
f a c i li ty a n d t h e n I t h o u g h t t h a t b e c a u s e t h is p a c k C h a ir, i t ’s d a te d t h e
11 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 4 w h i c h w a s s e n t t o th e J o h a n n e s b u r g , I th o u g h t – o h
t o t h e B e i ji n g b r a n c h v i a th e J o h a n n e s b u r g b r a n c h a n d I h a d i t w i th m e
in B e iji n g .

I th o u g h t th a t c e r ta in t h i n g s a t l e a s t w e r e , a t le a s t in

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a g r e e m e n t a n d w e g e t t h e r e , I r e a lis e t h a t i n a c tu a l fa c t w e a r e
d is c u s s in g fr o m z e r o t h e r e h a d n o t b e e n a n y – a t l e a s t i n m y h u m b l e
o p i n i o n C h a ir t h a t , t h e o ffi c i a l s t h a t w e r e t h e r e s e e m e d b l a n k t o w h a t I
w a s t a lk i n g o f .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t t h e is s u e s w e r e .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

W h a t t h e is s u e s w e r e a n d m y

c o l l e a g u e h e r e M r S i n g h k e p t o n m a n a g in g m e , k e p t o n m a n a g in g m e
s a y in g … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Saying calm down or something.

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s , c a l m d o w n , d o n ’ t w o r r y

w e ’l l h a n d le th e l a te r, b u t I s a i d , n o b u t w e ’v e a g r e e d m a n , w e c a n ’ t f ly
a l l th e w a y fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g o n ly t o r e a lis e t h a t – C h a ir w e h a d m e t
w i t h t h e m s o m a n y t i m e s , w e h a v e h a d e m a i l e n g a g e m e n ts , l e t t e r s e v e n
t h e d r a ft f a c i li t y C h a ir … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h e n y o u s a y, t h e m , M s M a k g a t h o w h o a r e

you referring to?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h e C D B J o h a n n e s b u r g o ffic ia ls ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
20

J o h a n n e s b u r g o ffic i a ls .

J a a n d th e l is t o f t h e o ffi c i a l s

C h a ir is o n p a g e 1 5 8 , th e s e a r e t h e o ff ic i a l s t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s 1 5 8 o f E x h i b i t B B 1 0 A .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

1 0 A C h a ir.

Th a t ’s t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u s a i d w a s

c ir c u l a t e d .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

N o t h e o n e t h a t w a s c ir c u l a t e d

Page 43 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
is p a g e 1 6 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h I ’ m s o r r y, t h e n I w a s l o o k i n g a t t h e w r o n g th in g

e a r l ie r o n , I w a s l o o k i n g a t 1 5 8 I t h o u g h t t h a t w a s t h e – o k a y s o t h e lis t
t h a t – t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s c ir c u l a t e d a t t h e m e e ti n g o f J u l y 1 , 2 0 1 4
in B e ij in g b y C h in e s e o ff ic ia l i s t h e o n e a t p a g e 1 6 0 ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d t h e l is t th a t y o u n o w r e f e r to a t p a g e

1 5 8 is t h e lis t o f t h e C D B J o h a n n e s b u r g b r a n c h o ff ic ia ls w i th w h o m y o u
in t e r a c te d ?
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s C h a i r a n d t h is o t h e r

o ffic i a ls t h a t I t h o u g h t t h a t w e ’l l h a v e a d is c u s s i o n a n d th e y w i ll d is c u s s
w i t h B e i ji n g th a t w h e n th e y r e s p o n d t h e y w o u ld h a v e r e s p o n d e d a f t e r
h a v i n g … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w o u ld h a v e u p d a t e d B e i ji n g , y e s , n o w e a r li e r o n
y o u r e f e r r e d t o a b a tc h o f d o c u m e n ts w h i c h y o u h e l d b y y o u r h a n d , I
d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r i t’s a b a tc h w e ’ ll b e r e fe r r e d t o I j u s t d o n ’ t w a n t
s o m e b o d y o r w h e n I r e a d t h e tr a n s c r ip t l a t e r o n t o e i th e r g o t o a w r o n g
d o c u m e n t o r a w r o n g b a tc h , M s M o l e f e , y o u k n o w w h ic h o n e I ’ m t a lk i n g
a b o u t?
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u ’r e r e fe r r i n g to … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

Th e b a tc h t h a t s h e r e f e r r e d t o … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

I n r e l a ti o n t o N e d b a n k ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

No Chair

N o a m i n u te a g o - s o I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e i f i t’s

s o m e t h i n g t h a t w il l c o m e u p w e c a n s a y w h e r e i t i s o r i f i t s o m e th i n g

Page 44 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h a t ’s n o t g o i n g t o c o m e u p th e n a t l e a s t I u n d e r s t a n d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

N o C h a ir i t ’s n o t g o i n g t o c o m e u p w e d o

n o t h a v e t h e b a t c h o f d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e u s e d a t th e m e e t in g i n
B e ij in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I d o n ’ t k n o w, d o y o u w a n t t o s a y – d o y o u k n o w

t h e o n e I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t , t h e o n e i n fr o n t o f y o u ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir m y a p o lo g y C h a ir f o r th is

o n e , th is i s a b a tc h o f d o c u m e n t t h a t I h a d w i th m e t h a t w e h a d s e n t t o
B e ij in g v ia t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g b r a n c h a n d t h e r e f o r e w h e n w e h a d t h is
10

m e e ti n g , I h a d i t w i t h m e a s r e f e r e n c e . I d i d n o t i n c lu d e i t i n th e p a c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d th e r e ’s n o n e e d – t h e r e ’s n o th in g

i m p o r t a n t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

N o th a t ’s fi n e o k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, w h a t w a s th e r e a n y th in g

a g r e e d t o a t t h i s m e e t in g i n B e i ji n g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I n B e ij in g C h a ir, w e c a m e b a c k

– t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g t h a t w a s a g r e e d C h a ir, t h e m e e ti n g l a s t e d t h e
w h o le d a y, I t h o u g h t w e h a d a g r e e d to d o – t h a t th e y ’ d d o Z A R , w e
20

c a m e b a c k , t h e y m a d e i t v e r y c le a r t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t a b l e t o d o Z A R
a n d th e y – s o , o n e , w e k n e w t h a t th e y c a n ’ t d o a n y t h in g b u t D o ll a r s ,
t w o , th e y s a id t h a t t h e y c o u ld c o n s id e r p r ic i n g a n d l a t e r o n i t w a s
r e d u c e d t o a b o u t t w o h u n d r e d a n d s ix ty – i n a c t u a l f a c t tw o h u n d r e d
a n d fi f ty s e v e n p o in t s , p r i c i n g , th e o t h e r p r i c i n g C h a ir – a n d t h e o t h e r
t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s C h a ir, th e y c o u ld n o t c o m m i t t o a n y th in g a n d I

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a s s u m e i t’s b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e ti m e t o c o n s i d e r t h e m a t t e r s
b e f o r e o u r v is i t. S o w e d is c u s s e d t h e w h o l e d a y, s o it w a s – w e w e r e
b a s ic a lly s t a r ti n g fr o m s c r a tc h .

W e w e r e i n tr o d u c in g th e t r a n s a c t io n ,

t h e r a ti o n a l e , o u r r i s k m a n a g e m e n t f r a m e w o r k , h o w w e h a v e e n g a g e d
w i t h o th e r l e n d e r s b e fo r e , h o w w e p r ic e a n d w e a c t u a l ly s a id w h a t th e
p r i c i n g t h e y o ff e r u s is w h a t t h e y o ff e r, i n a c t u a l f a c t t h e y ’v e ju s t p r i c e d
A n g o l a i n t h e s a m e f a s h io n a n d I w a s lik e , h o w c a n a n y o n e c o m p a r e
A n g o l a t o S o u th A fr ic a t h e c r e d i t p r o f il e s a r e t o o d i ffe r e n t a n d – s o
C h a ir i t w a s a v e r y d is a p p o in t in g m e e t in g b u t I w a s g l a d t h a t a t l e a s t
10

w e g o t o g o t h e r e s o th a t w e c a n p r e s e n t o u r c a s e a n d h o p e f u l ly t h a t
t h e y w i ll c o m e b a c k a n d r e v e r t w i t h s o m e t h i n g d i ff e r e n t.

Chair the

m e e ti n g e n d e d a t a r o u n d h a l f p a s t f o u r, I ’ m n o w b a c k

to

th e

s t a te m e n t … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u g o b a c k t o th e s t a t e m e n t w h a t w a s t h e

s ig n if ic a n c e fo r Tr a n s n e t in w h e th e r t h e y a g r e e d o r d i d n ’ t a g r e e t o d o
Z A R a s o p p o s e d t o D o ll a r s ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir i f w e d o – i f t h e f a c il it y is

a g r e e d in D o ll a r s w e h a d d o n e i t b e fo r e w h e r e w e ta k e u p th e h a r d
c u r r e n c y f a c il i ty i t w o u ld t h e n m e a n t h a t w e m u s t s w a p in t o r a n d s a n d
20

C h a ir b e f o r e w e c a n e v e n a g r e e t o s w a p , th e n w e h a v e t o u s e o u r
c r e d i t l in e s w i t h t h e b a n k s a n d C h a ir – b u t i m p o r ta n tl y i t h a s , t h e
tr a n s l a te d r a n d p r ic i n g h a s t o b e s o m e th in g t h a t w e a r e c o m f o r t a b le
with.

We understand that when we borrow in the local market, we

always get money cheap – much cheaper but then the premium that we
p a y fo r i n t e r n a ti o n a l m o n e y i t s h o u l d n ’ t b e th a t m u c h C h a ir, w e d o n ’t

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
e x p e c t i t t o b e t h a t m u c h a n d i m p o r t a n t ly i t s h o u l d n o t h a v e a n e g a tiv e
i m p a c t o n t h e w e ig h t e d a v e r a g e c o s t o f d e b t .

S o i f w e f e l t th a t t h e

p r i c i n g w a s t o o e x c e s s i v e th e n o r m a l p r o c e d u r e w a s to te r mi n a te
d is c u s s io n s a n d f o c u s o n o th e r c o s t e ffe c t i v e fa c i li ti e s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d w o u l d y o u s a y th a t t h e r e is a r is k

a s s o c i a t e d w i th c o n d u c t i n g a c u r r e n c y s w a p ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e r e is a r is k u p t o a p o in t

w h e r e w e h a v e f ix e d i t , s o o n c e w e h a v e d o n e a c r o s s - c u r r e n c y s w a p
w e w o u l d h a v e a g r e e d o n r a t e s u p f r o n t a n d t h e r e fo r e w e ’l l k n o w t h a t f o r
10

t h e li f e o f t h e l o a n w e w i ll p a y a n X a m o u n t o n s u c h a n d s u c h a d a t e
b u t t h e n w e ’l l s w a p c a s h - fl o w s w i t h a c o u n t e r p a r ty.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d h o w d i d th i s m e e ti n g c o n c l u d e ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e m e e t i n g C h a ir c o n c l u d e d I

think half past four or 5 o’clock and as we were doing our goodbyes,
t h e G C F O r e q u e s te d to h a v e a m e e ti n g w i th t h e h e a d o f H e n n in g
b r a n c h w h o w a s le a d i n g t h e d e l e g a t i o n o f C D B . I n t h e m e e ti n g C h a i r i t
w a s h i m t h e h e a d o f H e n n in g b r a n c h a n d th e i n t e r p r e t e r b e c a u s e o u r
C h i n e s e c o u n t e r p a r ts a l w a y s s p e a k s v i a a n i n t e r p r e t e r, th a t m e e ti n g
C h a ir, la s te d fo r a b o u t th ir ty m i n u t e s .
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Is there any reason why you were not in

t h a t m e e ti n g ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Were you not part of it?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I w a s n o t p a r t o f it C h a ir a n d

C h a ir w h e n I a s k e d h i m w h a t t h e d is c u s s i o n w a s a b o u t h e s a i d h e w a s
ju s t m a n a g i n g h i m , h e s a id h e j u s t w a n t e d to t e l l h i m t h a t Tr a n s n e t is

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
v e r y in t e r e s t e d w e w a n t t o p u s h f o r w a r d b u t w e c a n o n l y d o t h a t i f t h e y
p r o v i d e u s , y o u k n o w, w i t h a c c e p ta b l e t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s , s o I w a s
n o t t o o w o r r i e d … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h y w o u l d y o u b e e x c l u d e d i f t h a t is w h a t t h e

m e e ti n g w a s a b o u t …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I d o n ’t k n o w C h a ir, h o n e s t ly I

t h o u g h t , i n m y h u m b le o p i n i o n , I th o u g h t th a t w a s t h e r e a l m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja thank you.

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

CHAIRERSON:

A n d d i d … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

A n d y o u h a v e b e e n t h e o n e w h o h a d in i ti a te d th is

m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d d i d M r S in g h t e l l y o u h o w th a t m e e ti n g

concluded?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

N o h e ju s t s a i d , n o , I w a s j u s t

t e ll i n g t h e m t h a t w e ’r e h a p p y a n d w e a r e n o t – t h e y c a n j u s t d o c e r t a i n
t h i n g b u t o t h e r w is e w e c a n p r o c e e d b u t s u b j e c t t o c e r t a in th i n g s b e i n g
a g r e e d u p o n a n d C h a ir … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

T h a t s o u n d s t o m e li k e , y o u k n o w, w h e n y o u a r e

n e g o ti a ti n g w h e n a m e e t i n g , i f t h e r e is n o a g r e e m e n t s o m e t i m e s y o u
w a n t th e o t h e r p a r ty to a p p r e c i a t e h o w o p p o s e d y o u a r e to c e r t a i n
t h i n g s t h a t th e y d o n ’ t w a n t t o m o v e o n a n d y o u w a n t th e m t o g o a w a y
a p p r e c ia t in g t h a t t h is is s e r io u s a n d m a y b e t h e w h o l e n e g o ti a ti o n s a r e
a t r i s k b u t n o w if , a f t e r, t h a t s o m e b o d y is g o i n g t o t a l k a n d s a y, n o
d o n ’t w o r r y w e ’l l – p r o c e e d th e n i t c o u ld u n d e r m i n e th e s e r io u s n e s s

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w i t h w h ic h t h e y v ie w y o u r p o s i ti o n .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

P o s s ib ly C h a ir, I ju s t n o t e d

t h a t h e w a s a h a p p y c h a p p y a f t e r t h a t m e e ti n g .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

What then happened after the conclusion of

t h a t 3 0 - mi n u te m e e ti n g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir I th o u g h t t h a t w e w e r e

g o i n g b a c k to t h e h o t e l , I t h o u g h t t h a t w e w il l g o b a c k h o m e t o g e t h e r
a n d C h a i r h e t o l d m e t h a t h is tr a v e l p l a n s h a s c h a n g e d a n d h e to ld m e
t h a t h e ’s n o l o n g e r g o in g h o m e w it h m e t h e fo ll o w i n g d a y b u t h e ’s
10

r a th e r g o i n g h o m e v i a L o n d o n a n d i n a c t u a l f a c t h e s a i d t h a t h e n e e d s
t o g o t o t h e a ir p o r t i m m e d ia t e l y b e c a u s e h e w il l m is s h is f li g h t . S o
C h a ir … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w o u l d m e e t?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

H e w o u l d m is s h is f li g h t to

London.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h h e w o u l d m i s s h is fl ig h t .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o h e h a d h is m a n - b a g , ju s t

h is n o r m a l b a g w i t h a f e w th in g s , I th i n k I h a d m y la p t o p a n d m y
handbag and then he said, and by the way because I didn’t plan to go
20

t o L o n d o n b u t t h in g s h a v e c h a n g e d , p l e a s e c o m e t a k e t h is k e y o f m i n e
a n d b r i n g m y s u i tc a s e b a c k h o m e .

C h a ir I h a v e tr a v e l le d s o m a n y

ti m e s , I h a v e n e v e r d o n e s u c h a m i s ta k e , I t h i n k i t w a s a m o m e n t o f
w e a k n e s s fo r m e .

S o I to o k t h e k e y a n d w e d r o v e h i m t o t h e a ir p o r t

a n d t h e fo ll o w i n g d a y a s I w a s c h e c k in g o u t I w e n t to h is r o o m t o t a k e
h is – o h s o w h e n h e g a v e m e h is k e y, I a s k e d h i m , w h a t’s i n t h e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
s u i t c a s e , h e s a i d , it ’s y o u r Tr a n s n e t m e m o s a n d p r o b a b ly s o m e o f t h e
tr e a s u r y s tu ff a n d m a y b e o n e o r t w o t h i n g s t h a t y o u a r e n o t s u p p o s e d
t o s e e b u t I d i d n ’ t r e a d t o o m u c h i n t o i t. I t o o k th e k e y a n d w e d r o v e
h i m t o t h e a ir p o r t a n d t h e n I w e n t b a c k t o t h e h o t e l a n d t h e f o ll o w i n g
d a y a r o u n d l u n c h - t i m e C h a ir I c h e c k e d o u t a n d I w e n t to h i s r o o m t o
t a k e h i s l u g g a g e . C h a ir I h a d e x p e c te d t h a t, b e c a u s e h e s a i d h e d i d n ’ t
p l a n t o g o t o L o n d o n , t o g o to J o h a n n e s b u r g …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

D i d h e t e ll y o u w h y h e w a s g o i n g t o L o n d o n ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N D E M A K G AT H O :
10

H e s a id t h e r e w a s s o m e

emergency back home.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h y w a s n ’ t h e t a k i n g h i s s u i tc a s e w i t h h i m ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Because we were at CDB

o ffic e s s o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e c o u l d s ti ll – h e c o u ld n ’t e v e n g o to t h e

h o t e l … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

H e s a id h e w a s g o i n g t o mi s s

h is f li g h t , h e n c e I’ m s a y in g th a t w a s o n e m o m e n t o f w e a k n e s s f o r m e
b e c a u s e i t h a p p e n e d s o q u i c k ly I d i d n ’ t t h i n k m a y b e – I ju s t t o o k t h e
k e y I a s k e d a f e w q u e s ti o n s h e g a v e m e v a g u e a n s w e r s b u t I d id n ’ t
20

p r o b e fu r t h e r.

A n d s o I w e n t t o h is r o o m – y o u k n o w w h e n s o m e o n e

h a s c h e c k e d i n t o a h o t e l , a t l e a s t t h a t is w h a t I w o u ld e x p e c t , th a t w h e n
y o u k n o w t h a t y o u a r e c o m in g b a c k y o u ’l l h a v e a l o ti o n th e r e , a
toothbrush there because you are coming back and then I get there the
h o t e l r o o m c h a ir i s o r d e r ly th e r e is n o t h i n g t h a t s h o w s t h a t t h i s m a n
w a s c o m in g b a c k e v e r t o th is h o t e l r o o m e x c e p t h is r e d s u i tc a s e . I t h e n

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t a k e t h i s r e d s u i t c a s e C h a ir I tr a v e l i t … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y, y o u m e a n th a t t h e r e w a s n o t h in g th a t

s h o w e d th a t h e w a s e v e r c o m i n g b a c k , a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t b e c a u s e i t
lo o k e d l ik e i t w a s a s i f h e h a d n o t s le p t t h e r e o r w h a t is i t t h a t y o u
t h i n k h e w a s n o t c o m i n g b a c k b e c a u s e I w o u l d i m a g in e i f y o u h a d s l e p t
t h e r e a n d y o u l e a v e t o g o t o a m e e t in g a n d y o u a r e s ti ll g o in g t o c o m e
b a c k , w h e n y o u l e a v e y o u r t h in g s m i g h t n o t b e p u t t o g e t h e r w h e n y o u
g o b e c a u s e t h e s t a ff w ill s ti ll c o m e a n d c l e a n a n d ti d y u p , t h a t’s fi n e o r
if t h e b e d w a s d o n e a n d e v e r y t h i n g s e e m e d t o b e fi n e i t m ig h t i n d ic a te
10

t h a t h e w a s g o in g t o c o m e a n d t a k e t h i n g s a n d g o , I’ m t r y i n g t o
u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u – w h a t i t i s t h a t m a d e y o u th i n k , t h is m a n d id n ’ t
c o n te m p l a t e c o m i n g b a c k in t o t h e h o t e l .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

B e c a u s e C h a ir I f o u n d

e v e r y t h i n g t o b e o r d e r ly, I t h o u g h t p r o b a b ly h e l e f t a to o t h b r u s h
s o m e w h e r e , I c h e c k e d , t h e r e w a s j u s t o n e i t e m , t h e r e d s u it c a s e , I
d i d n ’ t o p e n i t I ju s t t o o k i t a n d l e f t .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b y t h e ti m e h e l e ft t h e r o o m i n t h e m o r n i n g ,

b e f o r e g o i n g t o t h e n e g o ti a ti o n m e e ti n g , h i s p l a n s h a d a lr e a d y c h a n g e d
a n d h e h a d t h e r e f o r e p u t t h in g s n i c e ly, j a .
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

M a y b e ja I d i d n ’ t k n o w a b o u t

t h a t , s o … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u to o k t h e s u it c a s e t h e n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I t o o k t h e s u i tc a s e w i t h , I d id n ’ t

t h i n k p r o p e r ly a n d C h a ir w h e n I l a n d e d a t O R Ta m b o , I th o u g h t th a t I
w o u ld g o h o m e f r e s h e n u p a n d I w i ll t a k e t h e s u i tc a s e w i t h m e w h e n I

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
go home.

S o w h e n I la n d e d I tu r n e d o n m y p h o n e a n d th e fir s t

m e s s a g e t h a t w a s o n my p h o n e w a s f r o m h i m , h e w a s j u s t li k e , H i M , I
tr u s t t h a t y o u ’v e tr a v e l le d s a f e ly b a c k f r o m B e i ji n g , m y d r i v e r i s w a i ti n g
f o r y o u t o t a k e th e s u i t c a s e fr o m y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u ’v e l o w e r e d y o u r v o i c e to o m u c h .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o r r y C h a ir i t w a s li k e , m y

d r i v e r is w a i t in g fo r y o u a n d p l e a s e g i v e m y s u i tc a s e t o h i m a n d C h a ir,
in d e e d a s I w a s w a l k i n g o u t o f c u s t o m s h is d r iv e r w a s w a i ti n g f o r m e
a n d i t ’s o n l y – a n d m y h u s b a n d w a s a ls o w a i ti n g f o r m e , i t ’s o n ly w h e n
10

m y h u s b a n d a s k e d m e , w h a t is i n t h a t s u i tc a s e t h a t I r e a l is e d t h a t I
h a v e ju s t m a d e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u t o o k a c e r t a in r is k .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : J a . I ju s t m a d e a b i g m is t a k e o f
t a k i n g h is s u i tc a s e C h a ir a n d w e n e v e r s p o k e a b o u t t h a t s u i tc a s e C h a ir.
I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w a s i n th a t s u i tc a s e .

I d o k n o w th a t th e r e w e r e

c e r t a i n th in g s t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g y o u k n o w t h a t w e r e n o t p r o p e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Probably I was a convenient

m e s s e n g e r f o r t h e d a y.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h e n y o u to o k t h e s u i t c a s e d i d Mr S i n g h

in d i c a t e w h e r e y o u s h o u l d t a k e i t t o o n c e y o u h a v e l a n d e d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

We did not even speak about

t h a t . I ju s t a s s u m e d t h a t I w il l g i v e i t b a c k y o u k n o w t o h i m . B e c a u s e
n o r m a l ly w h a t w e w i ll d o is t h a t w h e n w e c o m e b a c k w e w i ll ju s t fr e s h e n

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
u p e s p e c i a l ly i f y o u la n d in th e m o r n i n g a r o u n d t w e lv e o ’ c l o c k w e w i ll
b e a t t h e o ff ic e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d w h e n y o u s a y t h a t y o u j u s t k n e w th a t
t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n th i n g s h a p p e n i n g w h a t a r e y o u r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e i t w a s
a n o p e n s e c r e t t h a t th e r e w a s a w h o l e l o t o f c a s h t h a t w a s m o v in g
around the building.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : W h ic h b u il d in g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h e C a r l to n b u il d in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e Tr a n s n e t b u il d i n g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O h j a C h a ir o r m a y b e th e k e y

o ffic i a ls o f Tr a n s n e t C h a i r i t w a s a n o p e n s e c r e t t h a t c e r t a in b o o t s w e r e
f u ll o f c a s h .
CHAIRPERSON: Certain boots.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C a r b o o ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a r b o o ts w e r e f u l l o f c a s h .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
20

Is th e r e a n y t h i n g f u r th e r y o u w o u l d li k e to

s a y a b o u t t h is r e d s u i tc a s e .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o th i n g h a p p e n e d t o y o u a r i s i n g fr o m y o u r t a k in g
t h e s u it c a s e w i t h y o u ?

Page 53 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

No Chair I just came with the

s u i t c a s e a s i n n o c e n t a s I c o u ld b e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : S o I d i d n o t s u s p e c t a n y t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u . Th e n e x t t o p ic t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h
is n o w R e g i m e n ts . Yo u h a v e e n ti tl e d i t R e g i m e n ts t a k i n g o v e r t h e C D B
n e g o ti a ti o n s .

W h e n y o u r e t u r n e d f r o m C h i n a w h a t w a s t h e fi r s t t h i n g

y o u d id in r e la t io n to y o u r tr i p t o C h i n a ?
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir w h e n I c a m e b a c k fr o m

C h i n a I b r i e fe d m y t e a m …
CHAIRPERSON: What page are we now Ms Molefe?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C h a ir w e a r e i n t h e s ta t e m e n t a t p a g e 3 1

paragraph 124.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir w h e n I r e tu r n e d fr o m

C h i n a a s p e r n o r m a l I h a d a m e e t in g w i th m y t e a m . I b r ie f e d t h e m o f –
a b o u t t h e o u tc o m e o f t h e C h in a tr i p a n d w h a t w e n e e d e d t o d o fr o m o u r
s id e .
20

B e c a u s e C h a ir a f e w d a y s a f t e r t h a t I w a s m e a n t t o tr a v e l t o

E u r o p e f o r a b o u t te n d a y s . S o i t w a s i m p o r ta n t t h a t I g iv e th e h e a d o f
s tr u c t u r e d f i n a n c e a n u p d a t e a n d t o b r ie f h e r o n t h e a c tiv i ti e s t o b e
done in my absence.

I t h e n c a m e b a c k fr o m E u r o p e I t h i n k t o w a r d s

m a y b e th e m i d d le t o e n d o f J u ly – i t w a s th e m i d d l e t o e n d o f J u ly I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t d a t e a n d a t t h e t i m e C h a ir I b e l ie v e – t h e
t e a m h a d d o n e s o m e w o r k w i th – w it h – w i t h t h e G C F O a n d C h a ir I

Page 54 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w o u ld lik e to r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 2 1 4 o f th e m a in p a c k .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a t is E x h i b i t B B 1 0 [ a ] a n d th e d o c u m e n t

appears under Annexure 25.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u .

A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s w h a t is t h e d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 2 1 4 ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir t h e p a g e – t h e d o c u m e n t
o n p a g e 2 1 4 i t is a d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s – it i s a l e t te r b y th e G C F O t o
t h e Ex e c u ti v e Pr e s i d e n t o f C D B d r a f t e d b y Tr e a s u r y a n d i n t h is
m e m o r a n d u m – i n t h i s le t t e r C h a ir w e a r e h i g h l ig h ti n g o u r d is q u ie t
10

around what CDB has provided and we also say – okay – can – may I
please read on page 215?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : N o t o n t h is p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
“ Yo u r c o l l e a g u e s w il l r e c a ll a t o u r m e e ti n g i n B e ij i n g
t h a t w e r e q u e s t e d th a t th e c r o s s c u r r e n c y s w o p s b e
c a r r i e d b y e i t h e r C D B o r I C D C p r o v i d i n g Tr a n s n e t
with the ZAR loan.

20

A g a i n t h e i n t e r n a ti o n a l – a n

in t e r n a t io n a l b a n k a s C D B w it h a s u b s ta n ti a l b a l a n c e
s h e e t a n d a r i s k a p p e ti t e s h o u l d b e m o r e t h a n w ill i n g
t o a c c e p t c u r r e n c y e x p o s u r e a s is o u r e x p e r i e n c e
w i t h o th e r i n te r n a ti o n a l – i n t e r n a t i o n a l d e b t in v e s to r s
a s w e s u c c e s s f u l ly c o n c lu d e d s u c h tr a n s a c t io n s o n a
s i m il a r b a s is .

I w o u l d a ls o li k e t o h i g h li g h t t h e

Page 55 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
f o ll o w i n g d a ta r e l e a s e d d ir e c t ly to th e d r a f t te r m
sheet

which

has

been

tr a c k e d

with

proposed

a m e n d m e n ts th a t w e b e l ie v e a r e a p p r o p r i a te a n d in
li n e

w i th

other

fu n d i n g

a g r e e m e n ts

s u c c e s s f u lly

c o n c l u d e d b y Tr a n s n e t i n th e r e c e n t p a s t . ”
C h a ir a s a n a t ta c h m e n t t o th is le t t e r th e r e w a s a tr a c k e d t e r m s h e e t
that was being sent to CDB.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d c a n y o u c o n f ir m t h e d a te o f t h e l e t t e r

t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t r e fe r r e d to ?
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h e l e t te r is d a t e d 2 5 J u l y 2 0 1 4 .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d th e a n n e x u r e t o t h i s le t t e r w o u l d t h a t
b e w h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 2 1 7 o f t h e b u n d le ?
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w e m u s t ju s t c o n fir m t h a t t h e l e t te r i s s ig n e d

by Mr Singh.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t is s ig n e d b y h i m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t w a s it d r a f te d b y y o u b y a n y c h a n c e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
20

Thank you.

Can you turn to page 217

p l e a s e ? Is th a t th e d o c u m e n t th a t w a s a t t a c h e d to t h e l e t t e r ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I t is t h e d o c u m e n t th a t w a s

a tt a c h e d t o th e l e t te r. I b e l i e v e s o C h a ir I b e li e v e s o .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f th is d o c u m e n t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e p u r p o s e o f th e d o c u m e n ts

w a s t o tr a c k t h e a m e n d m e n ts t h a t w e a r e r e q u e s t in g in l in e w i t h t h e

Page 56 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
s e c o n d p a g e o f t h e l e t t e r 2 1 5 w h e r e w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t th e – t h e
fi n a n c i a l c o v e n a n t. W e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t o u r c r e d i t r a t in g s ta t u s . W e
a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e fe e s a n d th e c r e d i t r a t in g c o v e n a n t a n d o t h e r
c o n d i ti o n p r e c e d e n t t h a t w e t h o u g h t w e r e n o t a li g n e d t o o u r o t h e r
f a c i li t ie s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d o n p a g e 2 1 7 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t th e r e – i n
f a c t t h r o u g h o u t t h e d o c u m e n t t h e r e a p p e a r s w h a t l o o k s l ik e tr a c k e d
changes?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: And who made these changes?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o m e o f t h e m i t w i ll b e u s .

I

t h i n k i t w a s o u r l e g a l t e a m . S o m e i t w il l b e t h e l e g a l te a m . W h a t – t h e
n o r m a l p r a c t ic e w a s th a t w e w i ll h a v e a – a r o u n d t a b l e w i t h th e – w i t h
t h e l e g a l te a m a n d w e w il l g o t h r o u g h th e d o c u m e n t li n e b y li n e a n d
s o m e o n e w i ll – w il l tr a c k th e c h a n g e s C h a i r.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d i n te r m s o f t h is d o c u m e n t w h a t w a s t h e
f a c i li ty a m o u n t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Tw o a n d h a lf b ill i o n d o ll a r s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d is th is p e r Tr a n s n e t ’s tr a c k e d c h a n g e s ?
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a i r t h a t is w h a t t h e y h a d
p r o v i d e d u s w i t h . A n d i n a c t u a l fa c t it w a s s u ff ic i e n t t o c o v e r t h e – th e
C h i n e s e tr a n c h e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s .

S o y o u s t a te t h a t t h e s e d o c u m e n ts

r e fl e c t th e s t a tu s o f Tr a n s n e t ’s n e g o t i a t i o n s w i t h C D B ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e y e s C h a ir.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

D i d a n y t h i n g c o m e t o y o u r a t te n ti o n d u r in g

t h e n e g o ti a ti o n b y Tr a n s n e t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e I th o u g h t w e
w e r e s til l a l ig n e d t o d i s c u s s io n s a n d i f i t is o k a y I w o u l d lik e t o g o t o
page 128 not paragraph 128 and page 227.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O f t h e m a i n f il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h a t is t h e p a g e n u m b e r ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : P a g e 2 2 7 o f th e m a in fi l e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: And paragraph 128.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 2 7 is – is li g h t o n m i n e . A r e y o u o n t h e s a m e e x h i b i t
that has got your statement?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir o n m y s ta t e m e n t i t is p a g
3 2 p a r a g r a p h 1 2 8 a n d t h e a t ta c h m e n t i s a t t a c h m e n t 2 7 p a g e 2 2 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: Attachment 27?
MS

M AT H A N E

EVELINE

M A K G AT H O :

Attachment –

page

227.

A t t a c h m e n t 2 7 c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n n e x u r e 2 2 7 .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Annexure MM 27 appears from page 22 of

Exhibit BB10[a].
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d t h e d o c u m e n t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t h e C h a ir
to…

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e l l I – i t w a s t h e r i g h t p a g e t h a t I w a s o n b u t …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s C h a ir. W e a r e a t p a g e 2 2 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I t h o u g h t s h e s a i d t h e r e is a p a r a g r a p h – a c e r t a in
paragraph.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h e p a r a g r a p h is w i th r e fe r e n c e t o h e r

s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e s t a te m e n t . J a o k a y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : C h a i r a p o l o g i e s f o r t h a t c o n f u s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I h a v e f o u n d it I a m a t 2 2 7 n o w.
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Th a n k y o u .

W h a t is t h a t d o c u m e n t t h a t is

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir o n t h e 3 0 J u ly w e a g a i n

appearing at page 227?

h a d h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i th C D B a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o r e f e r y o u t o p a g e
229.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O n th is p a g e C h a ir w e a r e

s h o w i n g t h e m w h e r e o u r a v e r a g e c o s t o f d e b t w a s a s a t th e e n d o f J u n e
2 0 1 4 a n d i t w a s s i t ti n g a t 9 . 4 a n d a t t h e t o p l e f t w e a ls o s h o w t h e m
w h e r e t h e Tr a n s n e t b o n d s w e r e tr a d i n g a t t h a t p o i n t . A n d C h a ir a t t h e
20

e n d o f J u n e t h e y w e r e tr a d i n g a t a r o u n d b e t w e e n 9 . 2 , 9 . 4 % o r 9 .5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h i s w o u l d b e a t th e e n d o f J u n e 2 0 1 4 ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 59 of 212

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ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d t o w a r d s t h e r ig h t s i d e o f t h e d o c u m e n t

t h e r e a p p e a r s a h e a d i n g a b o v e t h o s e g r a f ts w e i g h t e d a v e r a g e c o s t o f
d e b t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : C a n y o u p le a s e s p e a k t o th a t a s p e c t :
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : W h i c h a s p e c t ?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h e w e i g h te d a v e r a g e c o s t o f t h e d e b t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h e [ i n d is ti n c t ] a t t h a t t i m e w a s
9 .4 % a n d C h a ir a s I in d i c a t e d C D B ’s p r ic in g i n f ix e d r a t e te r m s c a m e a t
10

a r o u n d b e t w e e n 1 2 .9 0 to 1 3 .3 % w h ic h w a s q u i te h i g h .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d a g a i n w h e n y o u s a y a t th a t p o i n t y o u

r e fe r r i n g t o J u n e 2 0 1 4 ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d C h a ir p le a s e
r e fe r t o p a g e 2 3 0 w h e r e i n a g a i n w e r e f e r r e d t h e m t o t h e d r a f t t e r m
s h e e t w e s a y th a t t h e p r ic i n g is t o o e x p e n s i v e . O t h e r f e e s a r e n o t i n
li n e w i th s i m il a r f a c il it i e s . A n d i m p o r ta n tl y C h a ir t h e c l a u s e s a r e n o t o f
in v e s t m e n t g r a d e . Th e r e is w h a t y o u c a ll t h e l o a n m a r k e t a s s o c i a ti o n
C h a ir th e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t c o v e n a n t s p e r a c c r e d i t e d q u a li ty a n d i f y o u a r e
a n in v e s t m e n t g r a d e d i n s ti t u ti o n y o u e x p e c t c e r t a i n c o v e n a n ts . A n d i t
20

w a s c le a r C h a ir t h a t w h a t t h e y h a v e p r o v id e d u s w e r e o f s u b q u a l i ty
a n d in a c tu a l f a c t t h e y – t h e y c o n fir m e d th a t t h e y c o m p a r e d u s to
Angola. And the important…
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y w e r e s u b s ta n d a r d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ve r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ve r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d th e i m p o r ta n t p a g e C h a ir

h e r e is 2 3 1 w h e r e w e s a y th a t w e g iv e t h e m f o r e x a m p le s o f l o n g t e r m
f u n d i n g C h a ir.

I n th is in s ta n c e C h a ir w e h a v e t h e [i n d is t in c t ] f a c ili t y

w h ic h is 1 8 y e a r s u n d e r 2 0 0 p o in ts . W e h a v e t h e A fr ic a n D e v e l o p m e n t
B a n k a t 2 0 y e a r s a t J I B A p l u s 2 3 0 p o in t s . B u t C D B h e r e is c l e a r ly o u t
o f l in e a t J I B A p lu s 4 3 0 p o i n t s . C h a ir I h a v e n e v e r i n m y l i fe d is c u s s e d
o n e p o i n t fo r s o l o n g a n d I c a n fi ll i t a g a i n I m e a n a s I a m g o i n g o v e r
10

t h r o u g h t h is p r i c i n g o v e r a n d o v e r a n d a g a i n C h a ir t h a t t h e i m p o r t a n t
p o i n t is th e l a s t li n e in r e d . W e h ig h l i g h t e d i t i n r e d a n d w e s a y :
“ I f C D B is n o t w il li n g t o r e c o n s id e r t h e c u r r e n t d r a f t
t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s Tr a n s n e t w i ll u s e o th e r c o s t
e ffe c tiv e fa c i li ti e s . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Now…
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e r e – y o u w e r e g e t ti n g t o t h e e n d o f y o u r

p a t ie n c e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
20

A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : W h e r e y o u m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o J I B A p lu s 4 3 0
b e i n g e x c e s s i v e t h a t w a s r e l e v a n t t o C D B o v e r a p e r i o d o f fi v e y e a r s ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Fi f t e e n y e a r s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Fi f t e e n y e a r s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : J a .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

P a r d o n m e . A n d w h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a c c e p ta b l e J I B A r a t e a c c o r d i n g t o Tr a n s n e t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A r o u n d 2 0 0 p o i n ts m a y b e 2 1 0 –
around there – around 200.

Between 170 to 210 you know we could

e n t e r t a i n th a t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s .

C a n I t h e n a ls o r e f e r y o u t o y o u r

Annexure M M6 which appears on page 75 of the bundle?

T h a t is a n

e m a i l a n d if c o u ld j u s t a d v is e t h e C h a ir w h a t t h a t e m a il r e la t e s t o a n d
who it was sent to?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir o n t h i s d a y I r e c e iv e d a n
10

e m a i l fr o m …
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: On which day?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O n t h e 4 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I w a s c o p i e d o n a n e m a il b y t h e
C h i n a D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k t h a t w a s s e n t to Mr E r ic W o o d a n d th e C D B
o ffic i a l c o p i e d m e a n d t h e G C F O a n d t h e e m a il r e a d s a s f o l lo w s :
“Dear Eric. According to your feedback…”
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I a m n o w o n p a g e 6 .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : P a g e 7 6 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I w a s s t il l a t 7 5 o k a y.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O k a y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A p o l o g i e s t h e e m a il t r a il w h e n [i n d is t in c t] a n d
s e q u e n c e s t a r ts a t 7 6 .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: So it says:
“Dear

Eric.

So

i t is

the

CDB

to

Regiments.

A c c o r d i n g t o y o u r fe e d b a c k a n d o u r in t e r n a l r e s e a r c h
a n d d is c u s s i o n w e m a d e f u r t h e r a d j u s t m e n t to t h e
t e r m s h e e t a b o u t t h e p r o p o s e d C D B l o a n f a c il it y t o
Tr a n s n e t a n d th e s e c o n d a d d i ti o n o f d r a ft t e r m s h e e t
is a t t a c h e d . Yo u r p o s i ti v e r e s p o n s e w o u l d b e h i g h l y
10

a p p r e c ia t e d . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . ”
A n d C h a ir n o w th e e m a i l c a m e a t a r o u n d 11 :3 7 a m s o a t – o n t h e s a m e
d a y a t 2 : 3 3 I s e n t a n e m a i l to t h e G C E a n d th e G C F O o n p a g e 7 5 .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t r e a d s a s f o l lo w s :
“ D e a r Br i a n a n d A n o j . I r e f e r t o t h e e m a i l b e l o w f r o m
C h i n a D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k to R e g i m e n t s C a p i t a l a b o u t
t h e p r o p o s e d f a c i li t y t o f in a n c e t h e C N R a n d C S R
lo c o m o t iv e s .

Tr a n s n e t G r o u p Tr e a s u r y h a s b e e n

n e g o ti a ti n g w i t h C D B s i n c e A p r i l 2 0 1 4 r e g a r d in g th e
20

t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s o f th e f a c i li t y.

This was

f o ll o w e d b y m e e t in g s i n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d B e iji n g
u n d e r t h e le a d e r s h i p o f t h e G C F O .
normal

assessment

of

new

A s p a r t o f th e

funding

f a c i li t y

the

Tr e a s u r y t e a m h a s a n d is c o m p a r in g t h e c u r r e n t
t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s w i t h s i m i l a r fa c i li ti e s .

Page 63 of 212

I would

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
lik e to s e e k c la r i ty a b o u t t h e r o l e o f R e g i m e n ts i n
t h is m a t t e r a t th is p o i n t o f t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d w h a t
Tr a n s n e t Tr e a s u r y ’s r o l e s h o u l d b e g i v in g d ir e c t
c o m m u n ic a ti o n

of

R e g i m e n ts

with

CDB.

Yo u r

g u i d a n c e w i ll b e a p p r e c i a t e d . ”
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w a s th e r e a n y r e s p o n s e t o t h is l e t t e r t o
t h is e m a il r a th e r ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir I b e li e v e a f t e r w a r d s Mr

M o le f e c a l l e d u s t h a t is m e a n d t h e G C F O t o h is o ffi c e t o d is c u s s th is
10

d is a g r e e m e n t s t h a t w e h a v e h a d C h a ir.

A n d I th i n k h e w a s tr y in g t o

mediate and to kind of find a common ground between the two of us.
B u t C h a ir a t th a t p o i n t i n ti m e I t h in k I w a s c o n v i n c e d t h a t th e y a r e o n
the same side of the game. And he…
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M r M o le f e a n d Mr S in g h ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d M r S i n g h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t h i n k a t t h a t ti m e C h a ir I w a s
n o w c o n v i n c e d th a t t h e y a r e o n th e s a m e s id e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d h e p r o p o s e d th a t w e s h o u l d
m a y b e h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h R e g i m e n ts a n d s e e i f w e c a n n o t r e s o lv e
t h is i m p u ls e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d e a r li e r y o u h a d r e f e r r e d …
CHAIRPERSON: But your – I am sorry but your query to them by way

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
o f y o u r e m a il a t p a g e 7 5 w a s w h a t is R e g i m e n ts d o in g h e r e a n d w h a t
s h o u l d b e o u r r o l e a s Tr e a s u r y, is i t n o t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So one would have thought that they should respond
t o y o u a n d te ll y o u w h a t – g iv e a n a n s w e r t o t h a t n o t to s a y y o u m u s t
g o a n d m e e t w i t h R e g i m e n ts .
MS

M AT H A N E

EVELINE

M A K G AT H O :

Chair

we

had

many

e n g a g e m e n ts b e t w e e n m e t h e G C E a n d G C F O a r o u n d p r i c i n g o f t h e
C D B a n d a r o u n d t h e a s s e r ti o n t h a t th e p r ic i n g c a n b e b e tt e r t h r o u g h
10

Nedbank.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d s o C h a i r I c a n n o t e x a c tly

r e m e m b e r if w e h a d a n o th e r m e e ti n g a r o u n d t h is b u t I k n o w t h a t w e
w e r e m e e ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t m a k in g p r o g r e s s ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I w a s n o t m a k i n g p r o g r e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d w e w e r e – j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s y o u e a r li e r r e f e r r e d t h e C h a ir t o t h e

N e d b a n k p r ic i n g a n d th a t is t h e n e x t t o p ic t h a t y o u i n t r o d u c e a t p a g e –
p a r a g r a p h 1 2 8 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h e r e y o u s a y t h a t y o u w e r e t o ld t h a t
t h e N e d b a n k is in …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e w e a t t w e n ty p a s t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s C h a ir.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w e s h o u l d t h e n g o u p to h a l f p a s t a n d t h e n

take the tea break.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 8 w h ic h y o u h a v e a l r e a d y
s p o k e n to i n r e l a ti o n to N e d b a n k s u p p o s e d ly b e i n g a b le to p r o v i d e
S A R B S a t a m u c h c h e a p e r p r ic e . A t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 9 y o u th e n s p e a k t o
y o u r e n g a g e m e n t w i t h N e d b a n k . C a n y o u p l e a s e t a k e t h e C h a ir th r o u g h
t h is ?
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir a s I i n d ic a t e d b e fo r e I

r a i s e d m y c o n c e r n w i t h th e r e l a t i o n s h i p c o l le a g u e a t N e d b a n k r e g a r d i n g
w h a t I t h o u g h t w a s a n i m p r o p e r r e la t io n s h i p b e t w e e n N e d b a n k a n d
R e g i m e n t s a n d th e f a c t th a t m y b o s s e s w e r e u s i n g th e R e g i m e n ts
N e d b a n k p r i c i n g t o r e f u te o u r i n te r n a l p r ic in g . A n d I w a s t o l d t h a t y o u
k n o w t h e m a t t e r h a s n o w b e e n r e s o lv e d .

T h e o ffic i a l o f N e d b a n k

in v o lv e d w a s d i s c i p li n e d s o m e h o w I d o n o t k n o w h o w a n d I th e r e fo r e
r e q u e s t e d a n o ffi c i a l N e d b a n k p r ic i n g .

O n p a g e 2 3 9 C h a i r i t is t h e

o ffic i a l N e d b a n k p r ic i n g . C h a ir I w o u l d l ik e u s t o fo c u s o n o p ti o n 1 .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n o p ti o n 1 a p p e a r s r i g h t a t th e to p o f th a t
20

d o c u m e n t w h e r e t h e r e a r e th r e e – t h e r e a p p e a r t o b e c o l u m n s – th r e e
s m a ll c o lu m n s a t t h e t o p o f th e d o c u m e n t .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d C h a i r I w o u ld l ik e u s t o

focus…

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d 1 is o p t io n 1 . T h e n e x t is o p ti o n 2 .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O p t io n 1 , o p t i o n 2 , o p ti o n 3 .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d o p ti o n 3 .

Yo u s a y l e t u s fo c u s o n o p t i o n 1 ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O n o p ti o n 1 b e c a u s e h e r e i t is

a n i n d ic a ti o n o f t h r e e m o n t h s li a b l e p l u s 2 5 5 .

T h e D E f a c i li ty p r ic in g

w a s t h r e e m o n t h li a b l e p l u s 2 5 7 s o n o w t h is p r i c i n g i s n o t t o o f a r o ff
fr o m w h a t w a s a c t u a ll y a g r e e d o n l a t e r o n C h a ir. S o y o u c a n s e e u n d e r
t h e th r e e s c e n a r i o s b e i t a t 2 5 0 mi ll i o n d o ll a r tr a d e o r a 5 0 0 m i ll io n
d o ll a r tr a d e o r a 1 b i lli o n tr a d e a l l o f t h e t h r e e p r ic i n g s C h a ir t h e y a ll
10

in d i c a t e th a t i n r a n d t e r m s th e p r ic i n g w il l tr a n s l a t e i n t o a n y t h i n g
b e t w e e n 3 m o n t h J I B A p lu s 4 2 3 b a s is p o i n ts to t h r e e m o n t h J I B A p l u s
4 5 8 b a s is p o i n ts . C o n fir m i n g o u r i n te r n a l p r i c i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w a s c o m p le t e l y in c o n s is t e n t w a s i t w it h w h a t
y o u h a d b e e n t o l d e a r li e r th a t N e d b a n k c o u l d p r o v i d e a c h e a p e r p r ic e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u g o t t h i s p r i c i n g d i ff e r e n t p r i c i n g o r p r ic in g

t h a t w a s c o n s is t e n t w i th y o u r t h in k i n g , w i t h y o u r p r ic i n g a ft e r a s a n
o ffic i a l y o u w e r e t o ld h a d b e e n d is c i p l in e d .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d d i d y o u e n g a g e Mr M o le f e a n d o r Mr

S i n g h r e l a tiv e t o N e d b a n k ’s p r i c i n g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s C h a i r a s p e r p a g e 2 3 7 t h e

a tt a c h m e n t o n p a g e 2 2 3 7 I t h e n fo r w a r d e d t h e N e d b a n k o ffi c i a l p r ic i n g
t o M r S in g h a n d i n th e e m a i l I s a y t o h i m :

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
“ P l e a s e s e e b e l o w a r e s p o n s e fr o m N e d b a n k w h i c h
in d i c a t e s t h a t t h e y d id n o t d i s c u s s a n y p r ic i n g w i t h
t h e m . B y th e y I m e a n R e g i m e n ts . ”
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d w a s t h e r e a n y r e s p o n s e t o t h a t e m a il ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : L e t u s s e e . N o C h a ir. B e c a u s e
t h e e m a i l is d a te d t h e 1 3 – t h e 1 4 A u g u s t .

T h e r e is n o f o r m a l

r e s p o n s e . B u t h o w e v e r C h a ir c o u n s e l ?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C a n I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 2 4 1 o f t h e b u n d le ?

A r e y o u a t p a g e 2 4 1 ? M s M a k g a th o ?
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s I a m .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s . W h a t – w h a t d o c u m e n t a p p e a r s t h e r e a t
page 241?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

It is a n e m a i l t h a t I s e n t t o M r

M o le f e a n d Mr S i n g h .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h a t is t h e d a t e o f t h a t e m a i l ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t is th e 2 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : I n t h a t e m a i l w h a t a r e y o u c o m m u n i c a t in g t o
M r M o l e fe a n d M r S in g h ?
MS
20

M AT H A N E

EVELINE

M A K G AT H O :

I

a m c o m m u n ic a ti n g

my

d is c o m f o r t a n d m y d is a g r e e m e n t a r o u n d t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f R e g i m e n ts
a n d th e p r i c i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y p l e a s e d o n o t l o w e r y o u r v o ic e ?
MS

M AT H A N E

EVELINE

M A K G AT H O :

I

a m c o m m u n ic a ti n g

my

d is c o m f o r t a n d m y d is a g r e e m e n t a r o u n d t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f R e g i m e n ts
in t h e C D B n e g o t i a ti o n s .

Page 68 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s i n t h a t e m a il t h e r e a r e s e v e r a l h e a d i n g s
t h a t y o u s e t o u t i n y o u r e m a il a n d in y o u r o p e n in g a s y o u h a v e s t a t e d
y o u r a is e y o u r d is c o m f o r t a n d d is a g r e e m e n t o n h o w t h e C h i n a
D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k [ in d i s ti n c t ] n e g o ti a ti o n s a r e b e i n g h a n d l e d a s w e ll
a s R e g i m e n t s p r ic in g m e th o d o l o g y a n d i n y o u r fir s t i te m 1 o f t h a t e m a il
y o u s p e a k a b o u t o v e r a ll g o v e r n a n c e , w h a t w e r e y o u c o m m u n ic a t i n g t o
M r Si n g h a n d M r M o l e f e i n t h a t r e s p e c t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
10

I w a s c o m m u n ic a t i n g t h e f a c t

t h a t I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d h o w R e g i m e n t s w a s a p p o i n te d a s fa r a s I w a s
c o n c e r n e d t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r R e g i m e n ts to b e in v o lv e d g iv e n t h e
c a p a c i ty o f th e tr e a s u r y a t t h a t p a r ti c u l a r t i m e . A n d I a ls o s a i d t h a t I d o
n o t s u p p o r t th a t s u c h a h u g e tr a n s a c ti o n b e n e g o t i a t e d b y o u ts i d e r s .
Because

when

we

n e g o ti a te

a

tr a n s a c ti o n

C h a ir

we

negotiate

u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t w e h a v e a g r e e d w i t h t h e p r e v i o u s l e n d e r s a n d w e
t o to m a k e s u r e th a t a r e a l ig n e d .
agreeing.

Yo u k n o w w i th w h a t w e h a v e

A n d w h e n w e n e g o ti a te w e m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a s s e m b l e a

m u l ti- d i s c i p li n a r y t e a m .

W e m a k e s u r e t h a t w e i d e n ti fy m e a s u r e a n d

m i ti g a te a l l p o te n ti a l y o u k n o w fi n a n c i a l , le g a l a n d s o f o r t h a n d I w a s
20

n o t c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t Tr a n s n e t ’s b i g g e s t e v e r t r a n s a c t io n i t is n e g o ti a te d
a n d t o b e d e c i d e d b y o u ts id e r s . I th o u g h t i t i s a h u g e r i s k . A n d s o I
t h o u g h t th a t i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t I p u t i t i n w r i t in g b e c a u s e C h a ir I t h in k
a d a y o r s o b e f o r e th e 2 1 A u g u s t M r M o l e fe h a d o r g a n is e d a m e e ti n g
t h a t w a s a t t e n d e d b y m e , h i m a n d t h e G G C F O a n d fr o m R e g i m e n ts s id e
it w a s M r W o o d a n d M r P i ll a y th e y w e r e b o th d ir e c t o r s o f R e g i m e n ts a t

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h a t p o i n t in t i m e . A n d b a s ic a l ly th e a g e n d a o f t h e m e e t i n g w a s fo r h i m
t o s a y t o m e th a t e v e r y o n e e ls e a r o u n d t h e t a b l e a g r e e s t h a t p r i c i n g i s
a r o u n d 3 0 0 p o in t s .

I a m t h e o n ly o n e w h o is s a y i n g i t is o v e r 4 0 0

p o i n t s a n d I t h in k C h a ir h e w a n te d t o u s e t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty to s w a y a n d
c h a n g e my o p i n i o n o r m y r e c o m m e n d a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is i s Mr M o le f e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h i s is n o w Mr M o l e f e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
10

H e is s a y i n g t h a t y o u k n o w

e v e r y b o d y e ls e is s a y i n g A y o u s a i d Z .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e th e o n ly o n e .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

And you are the only one you

k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t – w h a t – h o w d id y o u r e s p o n d t o th is ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir I m a d e it v e r y c l e a r t h a t

m y r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is n o t c h a n g i n g , is n o t a b o u t t o c h a n g e b e c a u s e I
k n o w t h a t w h a t I a m g iv in g h i m i t is a n h o n e s t o p in io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS
20

M AT H A N E

EVELINE

M A K G AT H O :

And

it

is

the

right

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d in a n y e v e n t t h e y a r e

e x e c u tiv e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e y c a n c h o o s e t o u s e t h e ir

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
e x e c u tiv e p o w e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d – a n d d o o t h e r w is e b u t a s
f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d a s a c u r r e n t – a s t h e th e n Tr e a s u r e r o f Tr a n s n e t
I w a s n o t a b o u t t o c h a n g e m y r e c o m m e n d a ti o n to b e a l ig n e d w i th
Regiments

because

I

knew

th a t

I

was

giving

them

proper

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
10

A n d i t w a s th e r e fo r e i m p o r ta n t

t h a t I r e c o r d i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . N o w y o u w e r e n o t j u s t s a y i n g I t h in k i t s h o u ld b e
4 0 0 o r w h a te v e r y o u w e r e m o t iv a t i n g w h y ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d t h e y a t a n y s ta g e t h a t i s n o w M r M o l e fe a n d M r

A n o j S i n g h e n g a g e w i t h y o u r r e a s o n s a n d y o u r r e a s o n in g w i t h y o u to
s a y b u t y o u g iv e t h i s r e a s o n b u t th is is w h a t g o e s a g a i n s t i t ? D id t h e y
e n g a g e w it h y o u in t e r m s o f y o u r r e a s o n s a n d g i v e y o u r – t h e ir r e a s o n s
a s a g a in s t y o u r r e a s o n s i n tr y i n g t o p e r s u a d e y o u o r d i d t h e y ju s t t r y to
p e r s u a d e y o u b y n u m b e r s b y s a y i n g y o u a r e th e o n ly o n e w h o th in k s
20

t h a t w a y ? E v e r y o n e e ls e th i n k s d i ff e r e n t ly.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir i t is M r S i n g h w h o d i d t h a t
b u t a s I h a d in d ic a t e d b e f o r e h e k e p t o n u s in g t h e fl a w e d R e g i m e n ts
a n a ly s is C h a ir. S o w e w e r e n o t g o i n g t o g e t a p o in t w h e r e w e a g r e e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e f la w e d R e g i m e n ts a n a ly s is y o u d e a l t w it h

t h e m w it h h i m – y o u d id s a y w h a t w a s w r o n g w i t h R e g i m e n ts a n d d id h e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
h a v e a n a n s w e r to y o u r r e a s o n s o r h e j u s t k e p t o n s a y i n g h e d id n o t
a g r e e , h e a g r e e d w it h t h e m .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir th a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g i n
t h e o p e n i n g s t a t e m e n t o f t h is e m a i l b e c a u s e w h a t w a s c l e a r w a s th a t
t h e r e w a s a d i ff e r e n c e s a r o u n d t h e p r ic i n g m e t h o d o l o g y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e p r ic in g – t h e p r ic in g t h a t

R e g i m e n t s u s e d w a s v e r y d i ff e r e n t fr o m w h a t w e u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I n t h e r e s t o f t h e m a r k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Yo u k n o w b e c a u s e e v e r y o n e

e ls e i n t h e m a r k e t w a s a li g n e d t o o u r p r i c i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s u s i n g t h e m e th o d o l o g y th a t y o u w e r e u s i n g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d th e o u t p u t w a s s i m il a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u m i g h t h a v e b e e n – y o u m i g h t h a v e b e e n
t h e o n ly o n e th in k i n g t h e w a y y o u w e r e t h i n k i n g a t t h a t m e e t i n g b u t
y o u r m e th o d o l o g y w a s in li n e w it h t h e m a r k e ts ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e i r s w a s n o t i n li n e w i t h t h e m a r k e ts ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay thank you.

I r e a l is e w e h a v e g o n e p a s t e v e n

h a l f p a s t . W e a r e g o in g to t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k . W e w i ll r e s u m e a t t e n
to.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Ms M a k g a t h o p l e a s e tu r n

to page 2-8-5 of EXHIBIT BB10A.
CHAIRPERSON: 2-8-5?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: 2-8-6.
10

CHAIRPERSON: 2-8-6?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : 2 - 8 - 5 - I a m s o r r y C h a ir – 2 - 8 - 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ar e y o u t h e r e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

The – the document on that page is – is a

m e m o r a n d u m is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And

do

you

know

who

d r a f te d

th a t

memorandum?
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir th e m e m o r a n d u m w a s

d r a f t e d b y M r A n o j S in g h t o th e G C E M r Br ia n M o l e f e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And

what

is

th e

purpose

of

th a t

memorandum?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir

the

purpose

of

this

m e m o r a n d u m a s i t i s w r i t t e n h e r e – t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e s u b m is s io n is t o

Page 73 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
r e q u e s t t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e t o a p p r o v e th e r e s p o n s e t o t h e
G r o u p – t o t h e G r o u p Tr e a s u r e r fo r is s u e s r a is e d o n t h e U S $ 2 .5 b i ll io n
n o n - f a c il it y f r o m C h in a D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d t h o s e i s s u e s w o u l d b e th e e m a il w e h a v e
– y o u r e m a il w e h a v e e a r l i e r r e f e r r e d t o w h e r e i n y o u r a is e d y o u r
d is c o m f o r t o n R e g i m e n ts a n d t h e p r i c i n g t h a t w a s c o n c e r n e d a n d
r e c o m m e n d e d in t h e C D B lo a n f a c il i ty ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d i n t h a t m e m o r a n d u m Mr S i n g h d is c u s s e s
10

a l l t h e p o i n ts t h a t y o u h a d r a is e d .

T h e f ir s t b e in g R e g i m e n t s

a p p o i n t m e n t a n d m a n a g e m e n t w h ic h w e n e e d n o t g o t h r o u g h .
s e c o n d is th e i n t e r e s t e x p e n s e .

The

C a n y o u p le a s e g o t h r o u g h t h a t

a s p e c t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O k a y C h a ir.

I w il l g o t h r o u g h

M r Si n g h ’s r e s p o n s e o n t h e i n t e r e s t e x p e n s e . Yo u w il l r e m e m b e r C h a ir
t h a t i n m y e m a il d a t e d 2 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 w h e r e i n I r a is e d m y c o n c e r n t o
the GCFO and the GCE.

O n t h e in t e r e s t e x p e n s e C h a ir I c a l c u la t e d

w h a t I t h o u g h t w o u l d b e c a p i t a l le a k a g e a n d m y c a l c u l a t i o n C h a ir c a m e
t o r o u g h ly 3 . 5 b il li o n
20

o f in t e r e s t e x p e n s e s t h a t w o u ld

be

paid

u n n e c e s s a r il y – i n m y o p i n i o n - a n d I t e r m e d t h a t c a p it a l l e a k a g e a n d
C h a ir in h is r e s p o n s e h e is r e f u ti n g t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w il l b e c a p i ta l
le a k a g e .

He

m e t h o d o l o g y.

is

again

responding

u s in g

the

R e g i m e n ts

p r ic in g

O n th e s e c o n d p a g e C h a ir h e - h e c o m p a r e s t h e C D B

lo a n t o G M T N . A G M T N l o a n C h a i r it i s a c t u a ll y a b o n d .

I t is li s t e d .

T h e p r i c i n g t h e r e o f is t r a n s p a r e n t . I t is a b u ll e t l o a n . I t d o e s n o t h a v e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a n y o th e r f e e s a n d i t is a n u n ti e d lo a n C h a ir. S o h e c o m p a r e s a t ie d
lo a n w h ic h i s a n a m o r t is i n g lo a n to – s o i t is ti e d a n d i t is s e c u r e d . I t
is ti e d i n t h e s e n s e t h a t t h e – th e C h i n a D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k is p r o v i d i n g
a loan at the back of a Chinese procurement and two …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t t ie d m e a n s ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I t is ti e d , ja a n d th e n i t is

s e c u r e d in t h e s e n s e t h a t w e a r e p r o v id i n g t h e l o c o m o ti v e s a s s e c u r it y.
10

S o th e t w o p o i n ts ti e d a n d c o ll a te r a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s e c u r i ty ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

J a a n d s e c u r i ty s h o u ld p r o v id e

p r i c i n g b e n e fi t a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To Tr a n s n e t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : To Tr a n s n e t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d h e - h e i s u s i n g s o m e t h i n g
e ls e t h a t I m e a n is l ik e c o m p a r i n g a n o n i o n to a b a n a n a
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I E M A K G AT H O : It is n o t d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : S o t h a t is h is fi r s t p o i n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

An d number two he says that

t h e r e – s o h e u s e s th e fl a w e d R e g i m e n ts m e t h o d o l o g y a n d h e s a y s t h a t

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e C D B p r ic i n g i n R o m a n f ig u r e n i n e ( I X) p a g e 2 o f h is – o f h is
memorandum he says that:
“ T h e r a te o f 9 . 4 5 c o m p a r e s fa v o u r a b l y to th e
c u r r e n t r a t e o f 9 .3 2 . ”
A n d C h a i r t h is i s a m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f f a c ts b e c a u s e a s I – I h a v e
in d i c a t e d b e fo r e t h e r a t e th a t i n fi x e d t e r m i t w a s a r o u n d 1 2 3 0 to 1 3 3 0
d e p e n d in g o n t h e d a y – a n d in f lo a ti n g r a te t e r m s i t w a s o v e r 1 0 1 0 –
y o u k n o w - 1 0 2 0 – 1 0 5 0 – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.

S o t h is is a

m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f f a c ts a n d h e g o e s o n t o s a y in R o m a n f i g u r e 11
10

( XI ) t h a t:
“ Tr a n s n e t w i ll c o n s i d e r fi x i n g i n t e r e s t r a t e e x p o s u r e
in 1 2 t o 1 8 m o n th s r e a lis in g p o t e n t i a l s a v i n g s . ”
I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h a t m e a n s i n p la i n E n g l is h . C h a i r a g a i n I i n d ic a t e d
b e f o r e t h a t w e a r e a C o r p o r a t e Tr e a s u r e r a n d o n t o p o f t h a t w e a r e a
p u b lic a lly – w e a r e a S t a t e O w n e d E n t it y.

So we are not in the

b u s i n e s s o f s p e c u la t in g w h e r e t h e r a t e s w i ll b e i n 1 8 m o n t h s ti m e s . W e
t a k e a d e c is io n a t t h a t p a r tic u la r p o i n t i n t i m e h a v i n g c o n s i d e r e d a ll t h e
f a c to r s th a t w i ll h a v e a n i m p a c t o n p r ic i n g . S o a g a i n h e r e C h a ir h e is
in tr o d u c i n g s p e c u l a ti o n w h i c h i s c o n tr a r y t o o u r – o u r R i s k M a n a g e m e n t
20

Fr a m e w o r k a n d th e n h e s a y s t h a t :
“ I f th e r a t e is t o b e f ix e d . It is a r o u n d 1 2 p e r c e n t . ”
A g a i n i t is a m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d n o w h e - h e in tr o d u c e s a v e r y
in t e r e s ti n g p o i n t C h a ir.

H e s a y s t h a t h e is a lr e a d y a w a r e t h a t w h a t

they are doing or what he is proposing is not in line with the Board
a p p r o v e d Fi n a n c i a l R is k M a n a g e m e n t . S o h e is i n tr o d u c in g a n e l e m e n t

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
o f s a y i n g th a t h e y a n d b y th e w a y w e m i g h t b r e a c h – y o u k n o w –
certain benchmarks and therefore we may need to get a special
d is p e n s a t i o n fr o m t h e B o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is t h a t p o i n t n u m b e r 8 – R o m a n f i g u r e 8 ( V I I I) ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir. I t is 1 3 o d d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is i t … ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s .

I t i s R o m a n f ig u r e 1 3

( XI I I) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I a m s o r r y.
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : J a , t h e la s t p o i n t, ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , 1 3 j a .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : S o – s o n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t g e t my r o m a n fi g u r e s p r o p e r ly, y e s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o n o w C h a ir h is f ir s t r e s p o n s e

a g a in i t is b a s e d o n m i s r e p r e s e n ta t io n b u t a g a i n h e k n o w s th a t i t
in c l u d e s s p e c u l a ti o n a n d h e a l r e a d y k n o w s t h a t w i t h t h e c u r r e n t
fi n a n c i a l r i s k m a n a g e m e n t r e g i m e c e r t a in k e y b e n c h m a r k s w il l b e
b r e a c h e d . S o t h a t is th e fir s t p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s – I g u e s s t h a t t o th e e x t e n t t h a t h e a c c e p t e d
20

t h a t h is p r o p o s a l m ig h t i n c lu d e – m i g h t n e c e s s i ta t e a s k i n g th e B o a r d f o r
c e r t a i n a p p r o v a ls . T h e r e – t h e r e w i ll b e a r is k t h a t w h a t if th e B o a r d
did not provide that approval what would happen then?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , b u t h e d i d n o t d e a l w i t h t h a t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : H e d i d n o t – h e d i d n o t – h e d id

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
n o t d e a l w i th t h a t . H e i s j u s t h i g h li g h ti n g t o t h e G C E …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O f t h e p o s s ib il i ty o f a b r e a c h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o h e is u s in g th is f la w e d

a n a ly s is t o r e f u te m y a n a ly s is t h a t t h e c u r r e n t c o m m e r c i a l t e r m s w o u l d
tr a n s l a te in t o a c a p it a l l e a k a g e o f R 3 . 5 b il l io n .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d th e n e x t c o n c e r n t h a t y o u – y o u

r a i s e d r e la t e d to t h e o n c e o ff a r r a n g e m e n t f e e r e l a ti v e t o t h e b a s e
10

p o i n t s – t h e b a s i s p o i n ts r a th e r.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir in m y e m a i l a g a i n I s a y

t h a t t h e 11 8 b a s is p o in t s t h a t C D B is p r o p o s i n g i n R a n d t e r m s is 3 1 3
m il li o n t h a t w il l b e p a i d . Yo u k n o w – n o r m a l ly i t i s w i t h in s e v e n d a y s o f
– o f c o n tr a c t s i g n a t u r e a n d I a m s a y i n g th a t n o r m a ll y w e w o u l d p a y 5 0
– y o u k n o w – p o i n t s o r 6 0 b a s i s p o in t s a n d I a m s a y i n g t h a t i f w e w e r e
t o r e v is e t h a t d o w n w a r d s t h e p r o p o s e d f e e w il l b e r e d u c e d fr o m R 3 1 3 .3
m il li o n t o R 1 5 9 m il li o n s a v i n g t h e o r g a n is a ti o n 1 5 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : R 1 5 4 m ill i o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o b e tw e e n t h e t w o y o u c a n

e a s i ly s e e th a t t h e p o te n ti a l c a p i ta l l e a k a g e is s i t ti n g a t r o u g h ly R 3 . 7
b i ll io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d a g a i n C h a ir h e s a y s t h e 11 8

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
p o i n t s i s f a ir a n d C h a ir - h e c o m p a r e s th a t to t h e a r r a n g e m e n t f e e s o f
U S E x i m a n d a g a in C h a ir h e i n c lu d e s s o m e – s o m e m i s r e p r e s e n ta t io n
h e r e . H e s a y s h e r e th a t th e U S E x i m fe e s w e r e 1 0 0 p o in t s . In a c t u a l
f a c t th e fr o n t e n d f e e s I t h i n k t h e y w e r e a r o u n d 1 2 . 5 p o i n ts – 1 2 b a s is
points.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o a g a in C h a ir h e i n t r o d u c e s

m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f fa c ts h e r e a n d …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Th a t is – t h a t i s a b i g d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n 1 0 0 a n d

what - 12?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d 1 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : J a , 1 2 . 5 j a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is – I w il l a s k y o u a t t h e e n d w h e n y o u h a v e d e a l t

w i t h th is w h o l e m e m o r a n d u m b u t I j u s t w a n t to a s k y o u n o w p u t t in g 1 0 0
t h e r e w h e n t h e r e is s u c h a b ig g a p b e t w e e n w h a t y o u s a y w a s t h e
p o s i ti o n 1 2 a n d th is 1 0 0 . C o u l d i t h a v e b e e n a b o n a f id e e r r o r ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I d o n o t t h in k i t i s a n e r r o r

C h a ir. I th in k e v e r y th i n g t h a t h e – h e d i d h e d id s o d e li b e r a te ly a n d …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I think one of my last evidence

w i ll b e s h o w i n g t h a t t h i s e r r o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O r t h is d e l ib e r a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Mi s r e p r e s e n t a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ev e n g e ts to t h e B o a r d p a c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

No thank you.

J u s t o n e s e c o n d M s M o le f e .

Thank you.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Thank you.

Ms Makgatho the last concern

t h a t y o u h a d r a i s e d w a s t h a t th e C D B fa c i li ty i n i t s c u r r e n t fo r m w a s n o t
in t h e b e s t in t e r e s t o f – o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d y o u r e fe r t o a le a k a g e o f
a b o u t 3 . 7 b il li o n a n d th a t i s th e l a s t p o i n t th a t M r S i n g h a d d r e s s e s i n
10

h is – i n h is m e m o r a n d u m .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s C h a ir a n d h e g o e s o n

f u r th e r t o i n c l u d e a n o t h e r m is r e p r e s e n t a t io n .

The last point on the

page he says:
“ C D B a g r e e d to tr a n s e c t a c r o s s c u r r e n c y s w a p
s u c h th a t Tr a n s n e t w il l h a v e Z A R . ”
W e d o k n o w C h a ir – I m e a n – e v e n a t t h e m e e t i n g th a t w e h a d i n
B e ij in g e v e n a f te r w a r d s I k n o w f o r a fa c t t h a t C D B h a d s a id t h a t i t is
n o t a b l e t o p r o v i d e Z A R . S o t h is is a n o t h e r m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n th a t h e
in tr o d u c e s i n t h i s – in t h e m e m o r a n d u m .
20

A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d o n th e f o l lo w in g p a g e – p a g e 2 - 8 - 7 –
M r Si n g a d d r e s s e s h i m s e l f t o t h e f in a n c ia l i m p l ic a ti o n s t h a t w o u ld
a r i s e . P a g e 2 - 8 - 7 - t h a t is t h e la s t p a g e o f th e m e m o r a n d u m .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : Ye s C h a ir a n d a g a in h e is u s i n g
– a n d n o w h e – h e e v e n in c l u d e s w h a t t h e y h a d p r o p o s e d f o r t h e
g e a r in g – I m e a n – t h e f in a n c i a l c o v e n a n t C h a ir. I t s a y s :

Page 80 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
“ T h e g e a r in g r a t io n o t t o e x c e e d 8 0 p e r c e n t a n d t h e
C a s h I n te r e s t C o v e r n o t to b e b e l o w 1 . 5 ti m e s . ”
A n d a g a i n C h a ir j a t h i s is o n e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t w e k e p t o n a r g u i n g
a b o u t a n d I a m n o t s u r e w h a t k i n d o f a l e n d e r w il l a g r e e t o l e n d
s o m e o n e w h o h a s a b e n c h m a r k o f 8 0 p e r c e n t a n d 1 . 5 ti m e s C IC C o v e r
b e c a u s e i t - it s a y s th a t y o u r b a l a n c e s h e e t is v e r y w e a k .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d in t h e b u d g e t i m p l ic a ti o n s M r S i n g h

s t a te s t h a t:
“The proposed external funding has been budgeted
f o r i n t h e 2 0 1 4 / 2 0 1 5 y e a r. ”

10

A n d h e fu r t h e r g o e s o n t o s a y t h a t :
“ I t w ill b e fu r t h e r b u d g e te d f o r t h e 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 a n d
2 0 1 8 /2 0 1 9 f in a n c i a l y e a r ” .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir i t w a s b u d g e t e d f o r – i t is
tr u e – b u t t h e r a t e s th a t w e u s e d f o r b u d g e ti n g is t h e r a t e s t h a t w e
t h o u g h t a r e r e a s o n a b le r a t e s .

W e – w e d i d n o t b u d g e t f o r e x c e s s iv e

r a te s . S o h e is p a r t ly r ig h t b u t n o t e n t ir e c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d a s y o u h a v e e a r l ie r in d ic a t e d

M r Si n g h ’s r e c o m m e n d a t i o n w a s th a t t h e G r o u p C h ie f Ex e c u ti v e b e in g
20

M r Br ia n M o l e f e a p p r o v e t h e r e s p o n s e t o t h e G r o u p Tr e a s u r e r fo r
is s u e s

r a is e d

on

the

US$2.5

b il li o n

loan

fa c i li ti e s

fr o m

C h in a

D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k . D id M r Br i a n M o le f e a p p r o v e t h a t m e m o r a n d u m ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir th e G C E d id n o t – d i d n o t
approve this.

T h e G C F O w r o t e th is f l a w e d m e m o r a n d u m , p u t h is

s ig n a tu r e o n i t r e c o m m e n d i n g t h a t th e G C E a p p r o v e s i t a n d t h e G C E

Page 81 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C h a ir a s I h a v e s a i d t h a t h e is a v e r y s tr e e t w i s e g u y.

He does not

approve it.
CHAIRPERSON: Did not approve?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : H e j u s t n o t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: He just noted?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

H e j u s t n o t e s it .

S o fo r m e i t

w a s t h a t I a m n o t e v e n g o i n g to b o t h e r e n g a g i n g t h e m . I t s a y s i t a ll .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

N o w w a s a c o p y o f t h is m e m o r a n d u m s e n t t o y o u

b e f o r e i t w a s s e n t to M r M o l e f e o r a t t h e s a m e ti m e o r th e r e a b o u t …
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th a t y o u k n e w w h a t r e s p o n s e h e – h e h a d t o y o u r
points – Mr Anoj Singh?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

N o C h a ir.

I w a s o n ly g iv e n i t

a ft e r it w a s s ig n e d b y b o t h th e G C E a n d t h e G C F O .
CHAIRPERSON:

So it was not meant as a response to you.

It was

s i m p l y a – it w a s s i m p ly a m e m o r a n d u m t o t h is G C E a b o u t y o u r
memorandum?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
20

A n d t h e G C E to a p p r o v e t h is

fl a w e d a n a ly s is .
CHAIRPERSON:

W it h o u t y o u h a v i n g h a d a n i n p u t o n t h is – o n th e

p o i n t s t h a t w e r e b e in g m a d e a b o u t y o u r p o in ts ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t d i d t h e G C E – n o w t h a t w e k n o w h e d i d n o t
a p p r o v e h e j u s t n o te d – d i d h e e v e r s u b s e q u e n tly t a lk t o y o u a b o u t th e

Page 82 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
p o i n t s r a is e d i n t h is m e m o r a n d u m b y M r Si n g h i n r e la t i o n t o y o u r
concerns?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Not

in

relation

to

th e

m e m o r a n d u m C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : H e ju s t r a is e d i t i n g e n e r a l w h e n
w e h a d t h e m e e t in g w i t h …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
10

W i th

R e g i m e n t s w h e r e in

he

in d i c a t e d t h a t I w a s t h e o n l y p e r s o n w h o d o e s n o t a g r e e w i th th e
m e t h o d o l o g y a n d e v e r y b o d y e l s e is h a p p y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o t h is m e m o r a n d u m b y Mr S i n g h t o Mr M o l e f e

p r e c e d e d t h a t m e e t in g th a t y o u t o l d m e a b o u t e a r l ie r ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t h in k i t w a s b e f o r e b u t I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh you cannot remember?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

B u t I t h i n k a f t e r th a t m e e ti n g

t h a t w e h e l d I d e c i d e d t o p u t m y r e c o m m e n d a t io n i n b l a c k a n d w h i t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h is – w h i c h w a s t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w e d e a l t
20

w i t h e a r li e r ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : W h i c h i s t h e e m a il o f 2 1 A u g u s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

S o y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r a ft e r

M r M o l e fe h a d r e c e i v e d th is m e m o r a n d u m h a d b e e n a w a r e – h a d
b e c o m e a w a r e o f M r A n o j Si n g h ’s r e a s o n i n g o r p o s i t io n in r e la t io n t o
y o u r c o n c e r n s ? Yo u a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r h e e v e r d i s c u s s e d t h i s w it h

Page 83 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
you – Mr Molefe?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

H e d id – h e d e fi n i t e l y d i d n o t

d is c u s s
CHAIRPERSON: The memorandum?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

He

did

not

d is c u s s

the

m e m o r a n d u m w i th m e a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e d i d n o t e n g a g e w it h y o u o n y o u r c o n c e r n s th a t
10

y o u h a d r a is e d i n y o u r m e m o r a n d u m - M r M o le f e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir, w e - w e e n g a g e d a

n u m b e r o f ti m e s b u t h e k e p t o n s a y in g b u t t h e G C F O s a y s it is c o s t
e ffe c tiv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u – y o u r i m p r e s s i o n w a s th a t h e – h e p r e fe r r e d
w h a t th e G C F O w a s s a y i n g ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

M y – m y i m p r e s s io n i s t h a t h e

k n e w t h a t I w a s c o r r e c t i n my a n a ly s is …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

And

he

knew

that

my

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s a p p r o p r i a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : A n d h e k n e w t h a t t h e G C F O a n d
– a n d R e g i m e n ts m e t h o d o l o g y w a s f la w e d …

Page 84 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d h e k n e w th a t t h e r e w a s n o

tr u th in – i n w h a te v e r t h a t t h e y w e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h a t t h e y w e r e p u t ti n g o n p a p e r
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : B u t h e w a s n o t b o ld e n o u g h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : To s a y it s t r a i g h t …
CHAIRPERSON: But …
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Or maybe it was a strategy on

h is p a r t . I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u t h in k h e w a s j u s t n o t b o ld e n o u g h to s a y
t o t h e m y o u a r e w r o n g a n d M s M a k g a th o i s c o r r e c t o r d o y o u t h i n k t h a t
it w a s s o m e o t h e r r e a s o n w h y h e d i d n o t d o t h a t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C h a ir a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d b e f o r e
I h a d w o r k e d w i t h M r Br ia n M o le f e b e f o r e a n d C h a ir I b e li e v e t h a t h e
k n o w s m y te c h n i c a l a b il i ty a n d C h a ir I b e l ie v e t h a t h e k n o w s w h e th e r I
20

a m a p e r s o n to b e t r u s t e d o r n o t t o b e tr u s t e d a n d C h a ir s o I t h i n k h e
w a s i n b e t w e e n a n d h e c o u l d n o t – s o h e w a s tr y in g t o b r e a c h t h e g a p
b e t w e e n m e a n d t h e G C F O a n d h e c o u l d n o t g e t m e t o m o v e fr o m
w h e r e I w a s a n d h e – h e k n e w th a t h e c o u ld n o t te ll m e d ir e c tl y a n d h e
k n e w th a t o n t h e o t h e r s i d e t h is o t h e r te a m i s a ls o n o t m o v i n g . S o h e
tr i e d o n a n u m b e r o f t i m e s – I m e a n – w e h a d e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h h i m s o

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
m a n y ti m e s i n h is o ffic e w h e r e w e w o u l d b e c a r r y i n g – y o u k n o w –
b e t w e e n m e a n d M r S in g h a n d h e w o u ld tr y t o m e d i a te a n d I t h i n k – a t
le a s t i n m y o p i n i o n C h a i r – I t h i n k t h a t t h is tr a n s a c t i o n w a s g o in g t o
h a p p e n b u t h e j u s t n e e d e d m e t o c r o s s o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . S o t h a t h e c o u ld h a v e t h e c o m f o r t t h a t b o th
t h e G C F O a n d th e G r o u p Tr e a s u r e r w e r e a g r e e d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u w e r e q u i t e s te a d f a s t i n y o u r p o s i t io n ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
10

I w a s n o t m o v i n g C h a ir.

I was

not about …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I w a s n o t m o v i n g f o r a n y t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
BB10A.

Thank you.

P le a s e t u r n t o p a g e 2 - 8 - 9 o f

On that page appears a mem orandum.

W h o d r a f t e d t h is

memorandum?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. B e f o r e w e g e t th e – w e g o – w e d e a l w i th
t h is . J u s t t o g o b a c k to t h e d i ffe r e n c e o f o p i n i o n b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d
M r A n o j S i n g h a n d w h e r e M r B r i a n M o l e f e s t o o d o n e o f th e – o n e o f th e
20

t h i n g s t h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g i n y o u r m e m o r a n d u m w a s t h a t if Tr a n s n e t
w e n t a l o n g w i th w h a t Mr A n o j S i n g h w a s r e c o m m e n d i n g Tr a n s n e t w o u ld
in c u r a n u n n e c e s s a r y e x p e n s e o f a b o u t R 3 - s o m e th i n g b il li o n .
r ig h t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : 3 . 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: 3.7.

Page 86 of 212

Is that

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h a t is – y e s C h a ir.

That was

o n a c o n s e r v a tiv e b a s is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I t w a s b e t w e e n 3 . 7 a n d 4 . 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h a t I u s e d f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f

the email I just used 3.7.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d j u s t to c l a r i fy th a t w il l b e 3 . 7 b il li o n - 3 . 7
10

b i ll io n ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : I n t h e m e m o r a n d u m , y e s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : J a .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Can you please turn to page 2-8-9? Are you
at page 2-8-9?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a t is a m e m o r a n d u m .

Do you know who

d r a f t e d t h is m e m o r a n d u m ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
20

I b e li e v e I – I - j a i t is th e

Tr e a s u r y Te a m b e i t t h e H e a d o f S t r u c tu r e d Fi n a n c e o r m e b u t j a …
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: And (intervenes).
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I w o u l d h a v e a n i n p u t in t o t h is

a s w e ll C h a ir. S o it w a s m e – m a y b e le t m e s a y i t w a s m e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d t o w h o w a s t h is d i r e c te d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : To t h e Tr a n s n e t B o a r d .

Page 87 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d w h a t w a s th e p u r p o s e o f t h is

memorandum?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Th e C h a ir o f t h i s m e m o r a n d u m

w a s t o r e q u e s t t h e B o a r d to a p p r o v e c e r ta i n f in a n c in g i n i t ia t iv e s . C h a ir
b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d m e e ts o n c e a q u a r t e r.

So – and sometimes our

in it i a t iv e s – t h e c o n c l u s io n o f o u r i n i ti a ti v e s w e r e n o t p r o p e r ly a li g n e d
w i t h t h e B o a r d . S o w h a t w e w o u l d d o i s t h a t o n c e w e – w e k n o w th a t
w e h a v e p r o g r e s s e d u p t o s o fa r w e w o u l d th e n p r e s e n t t o th e B o a r d a
p a c k a g e o f a d i ff e r e n t f in a n c i n g p o s s i b i li t i e s a n d th e n w h e r e th e r e i s a
10

f a c i li ty t h a t n e e d e d t o b e f u r th e r t h r a s h e d o u t w e w i ll t h e n s a y t o t h e
B o a r d w e a ls o r e q u e s t a p p r o v a l b u t s u b j e c t t o A , B , C , D , E , F, G . S o
in t h is in s ta n c e w e a r e s e e k i n g a p p r o v a l f o r t h is Z A R 6 b il li o n f u n d i n g t o
be supported by US Exim Bank.

T h e s e c o n d o n e is U S $ 6 0 0 m i ll io n

fr o m E D C a n d I n v e s te c . T h e t h ir d o n e is t h e $ 1 b il li o n A B l o a n fa c i li ty
fr o m th e A fr i c a n D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k . T h e f o u r t h o n e is th e $ 2 . 5 b il li o n
1 5 y e a r f a c il i ty w i th C h i n a D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k a n d p o i n t – t h e f if t h o n e
is t h e 6 b il li o n 1 5 y e a r fr o m t h e I n d u s tr ia l a n d C o m m e r c i a l B a n k o f
C h i n a a n d w e f u r t h e r g o o n to s a y t h a t a ll o f t h e a b o v e f a c i li t ie s a r e
s u b j e c t to f u r t h e r n e g o ti a ti o n s b e t w e e n Tr a n s n e t a n d t h e le n d e r s .
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d y o u t h e n s e t o u t th e b a c k g r o u n d t o

t h is m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h w e n e e d n o t g o in t o .

Can you then turn to

p a g e 2 - 9 - 0 o f t h e p a g i n a t e d b u n d l e w h ic h i s p a g e 2 o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m
w h e r e in y o u d i s c u s s th e – t h e o b j e c ti v e s o r y o u r m e m o r a n d u m a n d
p a r t ic u l a r ly a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f t h a t m e m o r a n d u m ?
CDB 15 year loan.

Page 88 of 212

Yo u s p e a k t o t h e

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : C a n y o u p le a s e t a k e t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h a t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 1 0 r e a d s a s

f o ll o w s :
“ C h i n a D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k h a v e in d ic a t e d t h e r e
w i ll in g n e s s t o f u n d th e C S R a n d C N R lo c o m o t iv e s
and have proposed a 15 year loan of up to $2.5
b i ll io n a t a r a t e o f t h r e e m o n t h l ia b l e p l u s 2 5 7 w h ic h
is e q u iv a l e n t to th r e e m o n t h s J I B A R p l u s 4 0 0 b a s is
10

points.

T h is p r i c i n g is a b o v e Tr a n s n e t ’s w e ig h t e d

c o s t o f d e b t a n d Tr a n s n e t w i ll c o n t in u e t o e n g a g e
w i t h C D B t o f u r t h e r r e v is e t h e ir p r i c i n g d o w n w a r d .
I n a d d i ti o n t o t h e p r o p o s e d u n e c o n o mi c a l p r i c i n g
C D B is a ls o r e q u e s ti n g l o c o m o tiv e s t o b e u s e d a s
s e c u r i ty

as

c o v e n a n ts .

w e ll

as

th e

i n c lu s i o n

of

f in a n c ia l

T h e c u r r e n t p r o p o s a l i s t o o e x p e n s iv e

a n d i n c l u d e s c o v e n a n ts t h a t Tr a n s n e t is n o t o ff e r i n g
t o o t h e r le n d e r s /i n v e s t o r s . S h o u ld n e g o t i a ti o n s f a il
Tr e a s u r y
20

w il l

recommend

t e r m in a ti o n

of

the

n e g o ti a ti o n a n d u s e o t h e r c o s t e ff e c t iv e f u n d i n g
sources

to

finance

l o c o m o t iv e s

procured

fro m

China.”
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : P le a s e r e a d p a r a g r a p h 11 a s w e ll .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
has

r e c e iv e d

a

proposal

“ I n e d i t io n Tr a n s n e t
fr o m

Page 89 of 212

In d u s tr i a l

and

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C o m m e r c i a l B a n k o f C h i n a o f 6 b i lli o n fo r u p t o 1 5
y e a r s a t a r a te o f t h r e e m o n t h s J I B A R p l u s 2 8 0 f o r
t h e fi n a n c e … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is R 6 b i ll io n ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : T h i s is R 6 b i ll io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O : O k a y.
“ … f o r t h e fi n a n c i n g o f t h e l o c o m o t iv e s p r o c u r e d
fr o m C S R a n d C N R .

IC B C s p r ic in g i s a l s o a b o v e

Tr a n s n e t’s w e i g h t e d c o s t o f d e b t b u t m o r e a tt r a c t iv e

10

t h a n t h e C D B o ff e r.

G r o u p Tr e a s u r y w il l r e q u e s t

I C B C t o c o n s i d e r r e d u c i n g t h e p r ic e . ”
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h i s m e m o r a n d u m

w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e Tr a n s n e t B o a r d .
MS

M AT H A N E

EVELINE

M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir

o r d i n a r i ly

the

m e m o r a n d u m w o u l d h a v e s e r v e d a t B o a r d a n d w h e n I s e n t Mr S i n g h
t h is m e m o I e v e n a t t a c h e d a n e m a i l t o th e m e m o w i t h th e p e r m is s io n o f
c o u n s e l I’ d l ik e t o g o t o p a g e 2 9 4 .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W i t h m y p e r m is s io n .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O h w i th t h e p e r m is s i o n o f th e

C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W i t h t h e C h a i r ’s p e r m is s io n .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

W i t h y o u r p e r m is s i o n C h a ir, I’ m

s o r r y.

Page 90 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ye s w h a t p a g e d o y o u w a n t t o g o to ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

P a g e 2 9 4 s o C h a ir, th e la s t

paragraph, I wrote,
“ I n a d d i t io n I’ v e o p te d t o l e a v e o u r i n t e r n a l p r ic in g o f J i b a p l u s
4 2 0 a s i t is a f a ir p r ic e g iv e n c u r r e n t m a r k e t c ir c u m s t a n c e s
and

the

fact

that

our

i n te r n a l

cross-currency

p r ic in g

m e t h o d o l o g y fo r ( i n d is t in c t ) f o r c r o s s - c u r r e n c y s w a p s h a s b e e n
tr i e d a n d te s te d a n d p r o v e d t o b e c o r r e c t. F o r th e p u r p o s e s o f
10

B o a r d s u b m is s i o n , i t is p r u d e n t t h a t w e u s e o u r in t e r n a l p r ic e
t h a t h a s b e e n tr ie d a n d t e s t e d a n d p r o v e d c o r r e c t e v e n w h e n
w e c o m p a r e w i t h e x t e r n a l c o u n te r p a r t i e s o th e r w i s e w e r u n th e
r is k o f m i s l e a d i n g t h e B o a r d ” ,
S o I s e n t , a s a n a t t a c h m e n t t h is m e m o C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And the date of that email is the 20th of

August 2014.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

And was there any response to your email

a n d th e a tt a c h e d m e m o r a n d u m … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Before that Ms Molefe, I see that you – in your

s e c o n d s e n te n c e y o u e m p h a s is e t h a t , w h a t i s r e q u ir e d is B o a r d
a p p r o v a l n o t n o ti n g .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

O h y e s C h a ir t h e r e w a s a p a r t

w h e r e t h e y w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t n o t in g w a s lik e , th e B o a r d c a n n o t e a n d
t h e n I r e f e r r e d t o c l a u s e 5 . 2 .1 2 o f t h e D O E , t h a t y o u k n o w –

Page 91 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ju s t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y w e ll I t h o u g h t m a y b e i t w a s c o n n e c t e d w i t h

M r M o le f e n o t a p p r o v i n g a n o t e b u t n o t in g , s o y o u w e r e j u s t s a y i n g to
t h e m , n o t h is i s s o m e t h in g th a t r e q u ir e s B o a r d a p p r o v a l n o t n o t in g .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir, d o y o u k n o w w h a t

happened in respect of this memorandum and your email?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir, I a m n o t s u r e o f w h a t

h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t I d r a f te d b u t I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t
10

in s t e a d o f t h a t m e m o r a n d u m t h e B o a r d w a s – th e B o a r d p a c k in c l u d e d
t h is p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t s ta r t s o n p a g e 2 9 6 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s 2 9 6 .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir f o r C D B , b e c a u s e n o w

C h a ir t h is p r e s e n t a t i o n t o t h e B o a r d h a s a n u m b e r o f f i n a n c in g p r o p o s a l
a n d I w o u l d l ik e to r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 3 1 5 - 3 1 4 o f t h e m a i n p a c k , p a g e
3 1 4 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

314?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

Ye s I’ v e g o t i t .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir t h i s is a c u t a n d p a s t e

fr o m o n e R e g i m e n ts p r e s e n t a ti o n s . W e r e c o m m e n d e d a – w e s a i d i t ’s
n o t c o s t e ffe c tiv e … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s G r o u p Tr e a s u r y ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

G r o u p Tr e a s u r y a n d w e

r e c o m m e n d e d a te r m in a ti o n . I n o n e o f th e R e g i m e n ts p r e s e n ta t io n t h e y

Page 92 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
h a d r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t w e p r o c e e d a n d … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e y b e i n g w h o ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

R e g i m e n ts .

Ja.

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o th is p a g e C h a ir, i t i s a c u t

a n d p a s t e fr o m R e g i m e n t s i t s a y s ,
“ I t is r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t Tr a n s n e t t a k e u p t h e p r o p o s e d lo a n
w i t h t h e a b o v e n e g o t ia t e d t e r m s d u e to f o l l o w i n g r e a s o n ” ,
T h e f ir s t o n e C h a ir,
10

“ T h e l o a n i s f a ir ly p r ic e d a n d n u m b e r t w o , a n a p p r o v e d c a p it a l
repayment approved”,
S o h e r e C h a ir t h e y h a v e n e g o ti a t e d a s te p - u p r e p a y m e n t
p r o f il e s o y o u s t a r t p a y in g a l it t le b i t o f c a p i t a l a n d y o u s t e p i t u p a s i t
goes on.

S o t h e fir s t b u l l e t p o i n t is a m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n , th e b u ll e t

n u m b e r f iv e i t’s a n o t h e r m is r e p r e s e n t a t io n , n u m b e r s i x is a n o t h e r
m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n . S o t h e y ta b l e o r th e G C F O a n d th e G C E t a b l e t h is
p r o p o s a l f o r B o a r d a p p r o v a l … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d w a s t h i s p r e s e n t a ti o n t a b l e d in t h e

place of your memorandum.
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u j u s t s a i d n u m b e r s ix , n u m b e r w h a t is a

m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n , I t h i n k I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o s a y w h a t – w h a t th e p o i n t
is t h a t y o u s a y is a m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s o t h a t w h o e v e r r e a d s th e
tr a n s c r ip t k n o w s e x a c tly w h a t m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n y o u s a y w a s m a d e .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e f ir s t m i s r e p r e s e n t a t i o n is

Page 93 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h a t it ’s f a i r ly p r ic e d , w e ’ v e s a i d i t o v e r a n d o v e r C h a ir t h r o u g h a
n u m b e r o f a n a l y s i s t h a t i t w a s n o t f a ir ly p r ic e d a n d t h e s e c o n d , s ti ll o n
t h e s a m e b u ll e t C h a ir, t h e s e c o n d m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n is t h e c o m p a r is o n
o f th e C D B l o a n t o a b o n d , i t’s v e r y w r o n g C h a ir i t h a s t o b e c o m p a r e d
t o s o m e t h in g s i m il a r. S o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o is i t lik e o n io n a n d b a n a n a ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

S o t h a t ’s n u m b e r t w o , t h e l o a n

g r a c e p e r i o d , i t ’s fi n e , t h e s t a r t in g p o in t is fi n e … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h e s e c o n d b u l le t p o i n t is f i n e y o u s a y ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s it ’s o k a y C h a ir.

Ja.

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

A n d n u m b e r t h r e e i t ’s fi n e a s

w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

N u m b e r f o u r w e n o r m a lly

n e g o ti a te d a n e q u a l a m o r tis e r b e c a u s e w e s a i d t h a t w e d o n ’ t w a n t a r e fi n a n c i n g r is k b e c a u s e if y o u b u n c h y o u r m a t u r i t ie s t o b e r e - fi n a n c e d in
o n e p a r ti c u l a r p o i n t in ti m e , y o u r u n th e r is k o f n o t b e i n g a b l e t o g e t
s u ffi c i e n t b a c k .
20

S o th e y, in s t e a d o p t t o d o e x a c tl y w h a t w e d i d n o t

p r e f e r b u t I c a n g iv e i t t o t h e m C h a ir a n d s a y, a g i t ’s fi n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e s e c o n d l a s t b u ll e t C h a ir is

a n o t h e r b ig m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s n o w b u l l e t p o i n t fi v e .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s n o w t h e y a r e ta lk in g a b o u t

Page 94 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e p r i c i n g e s t i m a te is b e t w e e n 3 0 t o 4 0 b a s e s p o i n ts , I d o n ’ t k n o w
w h a t t h a t m e a n s C h a ir b e c a u s e i f y o u a r e p r e s e n t in g t o B o a r d y o u m u s t
s a y B o a r d , t h is w i ll c o s t u s a n X a m o u n t o r s o m u c h p e r c e n ta g e p o i n t s ,
s o a g a i n t h e y a r e l e a v in g th a t o u t a n d l e t ’s s a y i n t h e p r e v i o u s p a g e
C h a ir a g a in i t i s n o t e x p l ic it i n te r ms o f w h e r e t h i s w i ll b e b a s e d – w il l
b e p r ic e d i n t e r m s o f t h e C D B s tr u c tu r e a n d a g a i n t h e l a s t p o i n t C h a ir,
t h e m e m o s a y s C D B a g r e e d t o tr a n s a c t t h e c r o s s - c u r r e n c y

swap and

w e k n o w th a t i t is n o t tr u e C h a ir. S o t h e y, i n t h e ir w is d o m C h a ir, t h e y
r e p l a c e d t h e g o o d tr e a s u r y m e m o – i t ’s n o t a p r o b le m C h a ir i f y o u r
10

s u p e r i o r s r e p la c e m e m o s a n d a m e n d a n d e n h a n c e t h a t , i t’s n o r m a l
p r o c e d u r e , t h e r e ’s n o th i n g w r o n g w i t h t h a t , s o I w o u l d n ’ t h a v e a
p r o b le m w i t h th a t , e v e n i f th e y c o n v e r t e d a n d w e n t t o a P o w e r P o i n t i t ’s
n o t a p r o b l e m . M y m a j o r p r o b le m i s t h a t t h e y r e p l a c e d th a t b u t i n s t e a d
t h e y i n c l u d e t h i s d o c u m e n t w h i c h is l i tt e r e d w i th m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s a y t h is d o c u m e n t w a s a t t a c h e d t o t h e m e m o

t h a t y o u d r a f te d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

I d o n ’ t t h i n k th e m e m o s e r v e d , I

t h i n k i n s t e a d o f t h a t m e m o , t h i s is w h a t s e r v e d a t B o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s b e c a u s e t h e m e m o t h a t y o u h a d p r e p a r e d

r e fl e c t e d y o u r m o tiv a ti o n a n d y o u r p o s i ti o n w h i c h w a s n o t w h a t Mr A n o j
S i n g h w o u ld g o a l o n g w i t h a n d a l s o y o u t h i n k M r M o le f e w o u ld n o t g o
along with.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y.

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d y o u h a v e s u m m a r is e d y o u r c r it ic is m

Page 95 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
o f w h a t i s s e t o u t i n th e p r e s e n t a t i o n a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 8 a n d 1 3 9 o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t w h i c h y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h i n d e ta il , d o y o u k n o w w h a t th e n
h a p p e n e d p u r s u a n t t o Mr S i n g h r e p r e s e n ti n g t h is p r e s e n t a ti o n a l o n g
w i t h o t h e r d o c u m e n ts to t h e B o a r d ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir I b e li e v e th a t t h e

tr a n s a c ti o n w a s f i n a li s e d a n d e x e c u t e d b e c a u s e w e h a v e – t h e s i g n e d
a g r e e m e n t C h a ir, a s t h e l a s t a t t a c h m e n t M M 4 0 , I w o n ’ t g o i n t o th a t , i t
w a s s i g n e d a ft e r I h a d r e s i g n e d , s o C h a ir t h i s a g r e e m e n t i t w a s
e x e c u te d b a s e d o n a n u m b e r o f m is r e p r e s e n ta t io n s t o t h e B o a r d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W a s it i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e p o s i ti o n s t h a t Mr A n o j

S i n g h to o k o n c e r t a in is s u e s w i t h w h i c h y o u d id n o t a g r e e ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir, t h e p r i c i n g w a s s ti ll

( in d is ti n c t) p l u s 2 5 7 , t h e a c t i o n f e e w a s s ti ll 11 8 , t h e f i n a n c ia l
g o v e r n a n c e a r e in c l u d e d i n t h is , I d i d n ’ t g o in t o d e t a i l i n th e o th e r
c la u s e s t h a t w e r e n o t n o r m a l a s f a r a s I w a s c o n c e r n e d , b u t I ’ m n o t
g o i n g t o a n a ly s e t h i s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d id y o u e v e r s e e w h a t w a s p la c e d b e fo r e t h e

B o a r d a n d w h e t h e r – o r d i d y o u e v e r s e e t h a t th e B o a r d h a d a p p r o v e d
o r i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u n e v e r s a w.
20

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e B o a r d d i d a p p r o v e C h a ir.

O h b u t d id y o u e v e r g e t t o k n o w w h a t w a s p l a c e d

b e f o r e t h e m i n r e g a r d to t h is a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t a s o p p o s e d t o j u s t
t h i n k i n g m a y b e t h e y d i d n ’ t p u t t h is o r t h e y d i d n ’ t p u t th a t ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir I b e li e v e t h e l e g a l t e a m

w a s g o i n g o r is g o i n g to c o n f ir m t h a t t h i s p r e s e n ta t io n t h a t I ’v e j u s t

Page 96 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
g o n e t h r o u g h , i s i n d e e d w h a t w a s ta b l e d a t B o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d m a y b e t h e y m i g h t a ls o b e a b le t o e s t a b li s h t h a t

y o u r m e m o w a s n e v e r p u t b e f o r e th e B o a r d .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y th a n k y o u .

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d y o u s a y t h a t t h e C D B t e r m f a c i li ty

a g r e e m e n t w a s t h e n s ig n e d .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

A n d th e d a t e th e r e is t h e 4 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Correct.

Correct Chair

Yo u s a y t h a t t h i s t o o k p l a c e a f t e r y o u

r e s ig n e d .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

W h y d id y o u r e s ig n fr o m Tr a n s n e t ?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir t h e e n v i r o n m e n t w a s t o o

t o x i c f o r m e , I f e l t th a t I w a s n o l o n g e r s a fe a r o u n d th a t e n v ir o n m e n t ,
I … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

P h y s ic a l ly s a fe t h a t is .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
20

P h y s ic a lly s a f e C h a ir, I f e l t t h a t

I w o u l d b e h a r m e d , I f e l t t h a t m y – I w o r k e d o n t h e a s s u m p ti o n , a n d I
t h i n k C h a ir I w a s r ig h t , th a t a l l m y p h o n e s w e r e b u g g e d , I f e l t – I
s e n s e d a s i f I w a s b e i n g m o n i t o r e d , I tr u l y a n d h o n e s t ly b e l ie v e d t h a t
p o s s i b ly I w a s b e i n g m o n i t o r e d , a ll m y m o v e m e n ts w e r e m o n i t o r e d ,
e v e n a f t e r I’ d r e s ig n e d C h a ir, I c o u l d s e n s e th a t I’ m s t il l b e in g
m o n i t o r e d a n d C h a ir m y b l o o d p r e s s u r e w a s

Page 97 of 212

ju s t d e t e r io r a ti n g C h a ir

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a n d i t w a s ju s t n o t – a n d C h a ir I c a m e t o u n d e r s ta n d , t h o u g h w h e n I
r e s ig n e d I c a m e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h i s w a s fi n a li s e d a f te r I r e s i g n e d b u t I
c a m e to u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h i s is g o in g t o b e s ig n e d w h e t h e r I l ik e i t o r
n o t a n d I a l s o c a m e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t o n e p a r tic u l a r p o i n t i n ti m e
t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h o w a s th e r e b u t I b e li e v e S a l i m
E s s a w a s p a r t o f th a t m e e ti n g w h e r e i n I w a s b e i n g d is c u s s e d a s a
s t u m b li n g b l o c k . I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t th e r e s o l u ti o n o f t h a t m e e t i n g w a s ,
c h a ir I a ls o – I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r th is i s t r u e o r n o t b u t I w a s a ls o
m a d e t o b e l i e v e t h a t t h e r e m ig h t b e a n i n v o lv e m e n t o f th e Ta iw a n e s e
10

m a f ia in t h is tr a n s a c t i o n a n d C h a ir t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n to t a l ly p a r a ly s e d m e
b e c a u s e in m y e n g a g e m e n t t h e r e w e r e th e s e t w o c h a r a c t e r s , o n e w a s a
Ta iw a n e s e l a d y a n d a n o t h e r o n e , h e r n a m e i s Er ic a L e i a n d th e s e c o n d
o n e i s a C h i n e s e g u y, h is n a m e i s S e m a l i e . T h e s e t w o c h a r a c t e r s w e r e
a l w a y s a r o u n d e v e n w h e n w e w e r e i n B e i ji n g a n d e v e n – w e e v e n – I
t h i n k i t w a s in 2 0 1 3 w h e n w e d o i n g to u r s f o r th e p r o j e c t o f t h e p r o p o s e d
n e w D u r b a n D ig O u t P o r t, t h e s e t w o c h a r a c t e r s w e r e t h e r e a n d n o w
C h a ir, w h e n th e y s a i d – w h e n s o m e o n e s a id t h e p o s s ib il it y o f
Ta iw a n e s e m a fi a , a n d k n o w i n g t h e r e ’s a Ta iw a n e s e l a d y w h o ’s a l w a y s
in th e p ic tu r e , I k i n d o f th o u g h t i t ’s a p o s s i b i li ty, a n d C h a ir i t w a s s o

20

b a d i n Tr a n s n e t th a t i f I o p e n e d a b o t tl e o f w a t e r a n d fo r a r e a s o n o r s o
I t u r n e d m y h e a d I w o u l d n ’ t d r i n k t h is w a t e r a g a i n b e c a u s e I w a s a fr a i d
t h a t I w o u ld b e p o is o n e d . I w a s a fr a id th a t m y c a r m ig h t b e t a m p e r e d
w i t h , th e r e w a s a ti m e w h e n I h a d p r o b l e m s w i th m y c a r a n d m y c a r w a s
f a il i n g a t th a t p o i n t i n t i m e , I t h o u g h t it w a s t a m p e r e d w i t h a n d C h a ir –
a n d w e w e r e f ig h ti n g s o m u c h t h a t s w e a r w o r d s , y o u k n o w, b e c a m e t h e

Page 98 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
o r d e r o f t h e d a y, th e y w o u l d g i v e i t t o m e , I w o u ld i n t u r n g iv e i t b a c k t o
t h e m t i m e s s e v e n , a n d it ’s n o t a g o o d e n v ir o n m e n t t o b e i n a n d
t h e r e f o r e C h a ir, i n a s m u c h a s I e n j o y e d m y jo b , I lo v e d m y j o b t h e r e
w a s s o m a n y th in g s th a t w e c o u l d h a v e d o n e b e tt e r, t h e t e a m w a s
g r e a t , C h a ir, t h e te a m th a t I w o r k e d w i t h is a g r o u p o f fa n t a s ti c m e n
a n d w o m e n b u t C h a ir t h e r e w a s j u s t th is e n v ir o n m e n t t h a t t h e G C F O
a n d c a u s e d f o r u s in tr e a s u r y a n d th e G C E w a s h a p p y to p r e t e n d a s if
it ’s n o t h a p p e n in g a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w i f i t w a s t h e c u l t u r e th e n , C h a ir
t h e r e w e r e f e w p e o p le t h a t , I m e a n , I w a s – I t h i n k I w a s o n e o f t h o s e
10

tr o u b le s o m e o ff ic i a l s a n d C h a i r o n c e y o u g e t t o t h a t p o i n t i t ’s b e t t e r t o
ju s t c a ll i t q u i ts a n d j u s t ja .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u t o o k th e v i e w t h a t t h is G C F O to o k y o u a s a

tr o u b le s o m e p e r s o n .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s C h a ir, I ju s t d i d n ’ t c a r e

a b o u t t h a t t o b e h o n e s t I d id n ’t c a r e w h a t h e t h o u g h t a b o u t m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

W h a t I c a r e d a b o u t w a s t h a t it

w a s - h o w i t w a s i m p a c t i n g o n m y h e a l t h b e c a u s e my b l o o d p r e s s u r e ,
C h a ir w a s v e r y h i g h i t w a s a r o u n d 1 9 0 / 11 0 - 11 5 a n d th e n w h e n I t o o k
20

b l o o d p r e s s u r e m e d ic a t i o n i t w o u ld d r o p a n d I w o u l d b e fa in t in g s o
t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g n o t r ig h t w it h in th a t a n d I ju s t fe l t t h a t i t w a s n o t
w o r t h i t t o b e h o n e s t a n d i t ’s a t t h a t p o i n t t h a t I fe l t t h a t t h e y c a n d o
w h a t e v e r th a t t h e y w a n t b u t I h a v e m a d e m y p o i n t a n d C h a ir a t s o m e
p o i n t I h a d a m e e ti n g w it h m y d e p u ti e s b e c a u s e I f e l t t h a t i t w a s a ls o
i m p o r t a n t t h a t I te ll t h e m w h a t is h a p p e n i n g a n d C h a ir u p u n ti l t h a t

Page 99 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n t i m e w e w e r e f o r t u n a t e b e c a u s e I w a s fi g h t i n g s o
much that though you know certain things were happening in other
d e p a r t m e n ts , o n o u r f lo o r t h e r e w e r e n o s h e n a n i g a n s h a p p e n in g a n d I
t o l d m y d e p u t ie s b e c a u s e I d i d n ’ t w a n t a n y o f th e m t o , i n fu t u r e , c la i m
n o t t o h a v e k n o w n . S o I w a s v e r y e x p li c i t – th e r e a r e t o o m a n y t h i n g s
t h a t a r e h a p p e n i n g in t h e C a r l t o n C e n tr e b u t I w a n t y o u to k n o w t h a t I
w i ll n o t a ll o w c e r ta i n th in g s t o h a p p e n o n th e 4 3 r d fl o o r, t h a t ’s w h e r e
t h e G r o u p Tr e a s u r y w a s a n d C h a ir o n c e y o u g e t t o a p o i n t w h e r e y o u
a r e n o l o n g e r s u r e w h o to tr u s t a n d if s o m e o n e s m i l e s a l o t w it h a n o d
10

y o u s t a r t t o s u s p e c t t h e m , w h ic h is a ls o n o t r i g h t , i t ’s n o t h e a l th y. S o I
t h o u g h t i n th e b e s t in t e r e s t o f m y fa m i ly a n d i n t h e b e s t in t e r e s t o f m y
h e a lt h i t ’s b e t t e r f o r m e t o r e s i g n a n d m a y b e C h a ir, y o u m a y a s k w h y
d i d I n o t s c r e a m e n o u g h a n d b e c a u s e I f e l t th a t I w a s b e in g m o n i t o r e d ,
I f e l t th a t my li f e w a s a t r i s k – a n d C h a ir I h a v e f o u r y o u n g k i d s , I w a s
n o t g o i n g t o p l a y s u p e r w o m a n . I h a d m a d e r e l e v a n t c a ll s to t h o s e t h a t
w e r e o u ts id e in t e r m s o f tr y i n g t o b r ie f t h e m w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a n d a t
s o m e p o in t s o m e o n e s u g g e s te d th a t I m u s t m e e t o n e o f t h e t o p s ix o f
t h e A N C , I fe l t i t w a s n o t n e c e s s a r y a n d t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y tr i e d t o
a r r a n g e a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d , C h a i r a t t h a t

20

p o i n t I j u s t f e lt , y o u k n o w, w h a t I – I ’ m j u s t a ju n io r i n t h e o r g a n is a t io n
a n d I f e lt t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d k n o w s m u c h m o r e t h a n m e
a n d I j u s t f e lt th a t t h e r e w a s n o t h in g n e w t h a t I w a s g o i n g to te ll h i m i n
a n y e v e n t s o I d e c l in e d th a t m e e ti n g . S o , ja i t w a s r o u g h C h a ir, t h o s e
w e r e t h e ti m e s b u t I t o o k a d e c i s i o n th a t i t’s o k a y I w i ll r e s i g n , j a s o
that was it and I resigned.

Page 100 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And do you know whether there were any

o th e r e m p l o y e e s w h e t h e r i t b e in t h e Tr e a s u r y D e p a r t m e n t o r Tr a n s n e t
a s a w h o l e w h o a l s o r e s i g n e d d u e t o t h e s a m e o r s i m il a r r e a s o n s a s
yours?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

C h a ir a f t e r I l e f t I b e li e v e a n e w

Tr e a s u r e r w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d I b e li e v e d h e w a s p e r f e c t f o r t h e m a n d a t e
a n d I b e li e v e b e c a u s e o f t h e m a n d a t e e x e c u ti o n c e r t a i n o ff ic ia ls h a d t o
h i t th e h i g h w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

So he or she left as well?

M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

N o t h e n e w G r o u p Tr e a s u r e r

C h a ir w a s a c o m p li a n t o ffi c i a l , c o m p li a n t i n q u o t e s .

So I know that

la t e r o n t h e h e a d o f S tr u c t u r e d Fi n a n c e r e s ig n e d a n d s o m e o f t h e
f u n d i n g s e n i o r o ffic i a ls r e s i g n e d a n d I a l s o k n o w t h a t t h e h e a d o f c a s h
m a n a g e m e n t r e s ig n e d , th e h e a d o f d e b t m a n a g e m e n t r e s ig n e d o r w a s
o ffe r e d a V S P, I d o n ’ t k n o w, I a ls o k n o w t h a t s o m e o f th e d e a le r s
r e s ig n e d , I a ls o k n o w t h a t o n e o f th e Tr e a s u r y a c c o u n t a n t w h o ’s a C A
r e s ig n e d . S o I ’ m n o t s u r e C h a ir b u t I k n o w th a t th e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f
o ffic i a ls w i t h i n t h e tr e a s u r y w h o r e s i g n e d w h e t h e r t h e y a r e t e n o r m o r e
o r l e s s I d o n ’t k n o w C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W a s y o u r – i s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e ir

r e s ig n a ti o n w a s – th e i r r e a s o n s f o r r e s i g n a ti o n s w e r e l a r g e ly c o n n e c te d
t o w h a t y o u h a d fo u n d u n a c c e p t a b l e th a t m a d e y o u le a v e o r c o u l d i t b e
in d i v i d u a l c ir c u ms t a n c e s o r b o th ?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

I b e l ie v e s o C h a ir.

Yo u b e li e v e t h a t i t ’s c o n n e c te d … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

Page 101 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

T h e r e is c o n n e c ti o n b e t w e e n

t h e ir r e s i g n a t i o n a n d w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d ju s t y e s t e r d a y y o u s a id y o u r e s i g n e d o n

the 30th of November 2014.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a n k y o u C h a i r, I h a v e n o f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s

f o r Ms M a k g a t h o .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s t e r d a y a t s o m e s ta g e y o u h a d a s k e d h e r t o t a l k

a b o u t S u n d a y m e e t in g fr o m w h i c h s h e w a s e x c l u d e d a n d I i n t e r v e n e d –
I i n te r r u p t e d y o u a n d a s k e d a c e r t a i n q u e s ti o n , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r
y o u d id g o b a c k t o th a t q u e s t io n , I d o n ’ t s e e m to r e m e m b e r, d o y o u
remember…(intervention).
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A b o u t t h e m e e ti n g th a t to o k p la c e o n

S u n d a y w it h R e g i m e n t s b e i n g i n a t t e n d a n c e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Do

you

remember

or

maybe

we

s h o u l d … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h e q u e s t io n w a s w h e t h e r s h e w a s i n v i te d o r

in a tt e n d a n c e . I s t h a t w h a t y o u r e c a l l?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t m e e t i n g – y o u k n o w w h ic h m e e ti n g I’ m t a lk in g

a b o u t?
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :

Ye s C h a ir, I r e m e m b e r I t h in k

it ’s w h e n I w a s s h a r i n g th a t i n s o m e i n s ta n c e s m e e t i n g s w o u l d h a p p e n
a n d t h e R e g i m e n ts t e a m a n d t h e G C F O a n d s o m e o f m y t e a m m e m b e r s
w o u ld

be

d is c u s s i n g

issues

around

fi n a n c i n g ,

Page 102 of 212

r is k

management,

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
s tr u c t u r in g , h e d g i n g , a ll o f t h o s e w h i c h f a l l w it h in t h e a m b i t o f G r o u p
Tr e a s u r y a n d I w o u l d n o t b e i n v i te d s o w e w e r e d e a li n g a r o u n d t h e
is s u e s a r o u n d t h a t I f e l t t h a t I w a s n o t w a n te d t o n e g o t ia t e t h e s u p p li e r
c o n tr a c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o t h a t S u n d a y m e e t in g w a s j u s t a n e x a m p l e o f

t h o s e m e e ti n g , o k a y, n o t h a t’s a l r i g h t . Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v i n g
c o m e t o a s s i s t t h e C o m m i s s io n w i t h y o u r e v id e n c e , w e a p p r e c ia t e i t
very much.
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I t i s m y p l e a s u r e C h a ir.

W e – y o u m a y b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k a n d I’ v e n o t e

o f t h a t i f y o u ’ r e a s k e d , y o u w il l c o m e b a c k th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h w e
a p p r e c ia t e th a t y o u t o o k th e tr o u b l e to c o m e .
M S M AT H A N E E V E L I N E M A K G AT H O :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d y o u a r e e x c u s e d . W e a r e

r e a d y f o r t h e n e x t w i t n e s s , a r e y o u g o i n g t o n e e d a f iv e - m i n u t e
a d j o u r n m e n t to p u t a n y th i n g in o r d e r o r w h a t d o y o u p r e fe r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a i r f o r t h e c h a n g e o f g u a r d , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t , w e ’l l – a n d fi v e m i n u t e s is fi n e ?

A D V O C AT E P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

M o r e t h a n s u ff ic ie n t C h a ir.

O h a lr i g h t, w e ’ ll a d j o u r n f o r fiv e m i n u t e s , w e ’l l

r e s u m e a t f iv e t o tw e lv e , w e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokoena.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a i r w e a r e r e a d y.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e r e a d y ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e k n o w t h a t w e h a v e d e l a y e d y o u r s t a r ti n g b u t it

w a s n e c e s s a r y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s C h a ir. W h a t is i m p o r ta n t i t is w h a t
the witness must convey?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I h o p e t h e w it n e s s a l s o u n d e r s t a n d s ?
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir w e d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . A lr i g h t y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : M r C h a ir t h e n e x t w it n e s s is M r S h i w a E li ja h
M a z i b u k o . W e h a v e c o m p li e d Mr C h a ir w it h th e R u l e 3 . 3 n o t ic e s a s t h e
r e l e v a n t n o ti c e s w e r e d i s p a tc h e d t o i m p l ic a te d p a r t i e s . H e is a n o ff ic ia l
o f th e R e s e r v e B a n k a n d h e i s r e p r e s e n t e d b y a l e g a l t e a m . M a y b e i t
w i ll b e o p p o r tu n e f o r n o w C h a ir t o a l l o w t h e m a n o p p o r t u n i ty to p l a c e
themselves on record?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a le t u s d o t h a t .
A D V R O S S H U T TO N : C h a ir I a m R o s s …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Please come through here.
A D V R O S S H U T TO N : S o r r y C h a ir. R o s s H u t t o n fr o m t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g
B a r I a m a s s is t e d b y M ic h e ll e L e R o u x a ls o fr o m t h e b a r o n in s t r u c ti o n s
o f M r B e r n a r d H o tz o f t h e f ir m W e r k s m a n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d Mr C h a ir f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f l e a d i n g

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r M a z i b u k o w e w il l b e r e f e r r in g t o a fi le w h ic h i s
a lr e a d y p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u C h a ir. W e h a v e t a k e n t h e li b e r t y o f m a r k i n g
it a s E x h i b i t B B 1 2 s u b j e c t o f c o u r s e to t h e C h a ir ’s d i r e c t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n ta i n i n g M r M a z i b u k o ’s

s t a te m e n t w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t B B 1 2 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

h a s s u b m i t te d t w o w it n e s s s t a te m e n ts .

Mr M a z i b u k o C h a ir

T h e o n e s t a te m e n t is a

r e d a c t e d s t a t e m e n t a n d t h e o t h e r o n e i t is u n - r e d a c te d .

We did so

C h a ir b e c a u s e w e w a n te d to r e s p e c t a n d p r e s e r v e s o m e c o n fi d e n t ia l
10

in f o r m a ti o n y o u k n o w a r is i n g fr o m h is o w n s ta t e m e n t . W e a r e h o w e v e r
C h a ir i n p o s s e s s io n o f t h e u n - r e d a c te d v e r s io n s h o u l d i t b e r e q u ir e d
C h a ir w e w il l d e fi n it e ly p l a c e i t b e fo r e t h e C h a ir.

W e a ls o d e e m i t

n e c e s s a r y a n d p r u d e n t C h a ir b e fo r e Mr M a z i b u k o ta k e s a n y o a t h t o
p l a c e h i s e v id e n c e in t o p r o p e r c o n t e x t a n d a l s o t o l o c a te i t w it h in t h is
s tr e a m o f e v i d e n c e w h i c h is b e i n g l e d y o u k n o w o n b e h a l f o f Tr a n s n e t .
C h a ir Mr M a z i b u k o is f r o m t h e R e s e r v e B a n k . H is e v i d e n c e C h a ir m u s t
b e c o n s i d e r e d i n th e l i g h t o f t h e e v i d e n c e a lr e a d y g iv e n b y t h r e e
p r e v i o u s w it n e s s e s .

A n d t h o s e w i t n e s s e s C h a ir is M r S i n to n y o u w il l

r e c a l l fr o m S t a n d a r d B a n k a n d M r Va n D e r W e s t h u iz e n a n d Mr
20

S e d u m e d i fr o m t h e M N S . Yo u w o u ld r e c a ll C h a ir th a t t h o s e w i t n e s s e s
a ls o te s ti fi e d o n i s s u e s r e le v a n t to R e g i m e n t s , H o m ix a n d h o w t h e
m o n i e s w e r e a c t u a l ly p a id t o th o s e i n s t it u ti o n s .

Mr M a z i b u k o w il l

p r o v i d e a n s w e r s t o t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t m a y b e a r e i n o u r m i n d s w h ic h a r e
t h r e e i n n a t u r e C h a ir. T h e fir s t o n e w i ll b e w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e f u n d s
t h a t N e o te l a n d R e g i m e n ts p a id t o H o m ix ? Yo u k n o w C h a ir p u r s u a n t t o

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e c o n t r a c t s t h a t w e r e a w a r d e d to t h e s e t w o c o m p a n ie s b y Tr a n s n e t
a n d t h e s e c o n d o n e C h a ir w o u ld b e y o u k n o w w h o u lt i m a t e ly b e n e f i tt e d
fr o m t h e s o c a l le d f a c i li t a ti o n o r s u c c e s s f e e s t h a t w e r e p a id i n t o
H o m i x ’s a c c o u n t ?

Yo u k n o w a n d o th e r c o m p a n ie s w h i c h a n u m b e r o f

w i t n e s s e s w e r e s a y i n g t h a t w e r e m e r e ly f r o n t s i n o r d e r f o r t h is m o n e y
t o f in d i ts w a y e ls e w h e r e . A n d th ir d ly C h a i r i t m i g h t b e t h e q u e s t i o n a s
t o w h e t h e r w a s H o m i x m e r e ly u s e d a s a v e h i c l e t o c o n c e a l m o n ie s
w h ic h w e r e r e c e i v e d fr o m s u s p i c i o u s t r a n s a c t io n s .

And as and when

w e tr a v e r s e t h a t e v id e n c e Mr C h a ir m a y b e s o m e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s m i g h t
10

b e a n s w e r e d b y M r M a z i b u k o th r o u g h w h a t e v e r t h e y c a m e a c r o s s
t h r o u g h t h e ir in v e s ti g a t io n a s S A R B .

C h a ir I a m d o i n g th is a ls o

m i n d i n g t h e ti m e I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r it is a lr e a d y o n e o ’c lo c k o r
s h o u l d I p r o c e e d C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t j a w e l l w h e n I s a i d w e w o u l d r e s u m e a t fi v e t o
I th in k I d i d n o t a p p r e c ia t e th a t i t w a s f iv e t o o n e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a i r I w a s to ld a f te r w a r d s t h a t t h e
C h a ir s a i d i t w a s f iv e t o t w e lv e a n d I t h o u g h t t h a t m a y b e a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I b e li e v e th a t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

I t h o u g h t t h a t m a y b e a s y o u w a lk i n I

m u s t s a y t o y o u t h a t m a y b e i t is th e ti m e t o a d j o u r n f o r lu n c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o I a m s o r r y I th in k I g o t m y ti m e w r o n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

From what I had been told yesterday it would seem

t h a t w e w il l n o t fi n i s h t h is w i t n e s s e v i d e n c e to d a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir w e m i g h t …

Page 106 of 212

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r is t h e r e a c h a n c e ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f w e s tr e t c h i t u p u n ti l fiv e I t h i n k w e

might.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I h a v e r e s t r ic t e d t h e e v i d e n c e i n s u c h a
w a y t h a t w e s h o u ld a c c o m m o d a t e to d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t I t h i n k w e s h o u ld b e a b le to

c o m f o r t a b ly fi n a l is e i t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll th e – n o r m a lly y o u k n o w I w o u l d g o t o fiv e b u t

m y p l a n s h a v e c h a n g e d . I h a v e g o t t o b e i n D u r b a n . I w a s n o t m e a n t to
b e in D u r b a n a n d I c a t c h a s i x o ’c lo c k fli g h t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir le t u s s e e h o w w e p r o g r e s s u p

u n t il f o u r o ’ c l o c k .
CHAIRPERSON: Let us see how we progress.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d th e n w e c a n y o u k n o w a t t h a t –
a t t h a t a p p r o p r ia t e s t a g e m a y b e a s s e s s w h e r e w e a r e t h e n w e c a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s ,
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u k n o w d e a l w it h th e w a y f o r w a r d a s
20

t o h o w w e d e a l w i t h th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr M a z ib u k o .
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n o t k n o w – i t m i g h t n o t h e l p to tr y a n d s h o r te n

t h e lu n c h h o u r. I d o n o t k n o w w h a t d o y o u th i n k ? I f w e …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I a m t o l d t h a t i t m ig h t h e l p C h a ir b u t I

a m q u i te c o m f o r t a b l e th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

H a v in g r e s tr u c t u r e d w h a t I t h i n k is t h e

c r u c i a l a s p e c ts o f h i s e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: I might seem to be able …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t b e a b le t o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To d o i t w i t h in t h a t ti m e b u t i f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Th e r e is a w a y t o s h o r t e n th e l u n c h

r e m e m b e r t h a t o t h e r p e o p l e m ig h t h a v e t o g o o u t f o r l u n c h .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d i t m i g h t a ls o i m p a c t o n t h e m s o I a m

q u i te w a r y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To s a y w h e t h e r o r n o t i t w o u l d b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e l e t u s l e a v e i t . I w a s t h in k i n g w h e t h e r i f
w e s a y w e c o m e b a c k a t q u a r te r t o b u t i t m a y b e t h a t i n t h e e n d i t –
m a y b e l e t u s l e a v e it a s it n o r m a lly is a n d l e t u s s e e h o w w e g o .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I h a v e s e e n t e a m s l o s in g a n d w in n in g

g a m e s w i t h i n f i f te e n m i n u t e s C h a ir. M a y b e t h a t fi f te e n m i n u t e s m ig h t b e
20

c r i ti c a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d w e m ig h t ju s t b e a b l e t o s q u e e z e

t h e e v id e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u th i n k m a y b e l e t u s tr y t h a t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: At quarter to two.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is fi n e th e n w e w i ll a d j o u r n f o r lu n c h a n d
resume at quarter to two. We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Mr C h a ir s i m p ly t o r e c a p s o m e o f t h e

c r u c i a l e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s a d d u c e d b e f o r e y o u w h ic h b e c o m e s r e le v a n t
t o th e t e s t i m o n y o f M r M a z ib u k o .

Yo u w i l l r e c a l l C h a ir t h a t Mr S i n to n

p r e v i o u s ly g a v e e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e a d v i s o r y f ir m s - Mc K i n s e y a n d
R e g i m e n t s – t h e y d i d s tr i k e a d e a l w it h o n e M r S a l i m E s s a a n d
M r K u b e n M o o d le y i n t e r m s o f w h i c h M r E s s a a n d Mr M o o d l e y w o u l d b e
p a i d th e s o c a l l e d i n tr o d u c t o r y o r th e f a c il it a ti o n f e e s i n o r d e r – w h e r e
– w h e r e i t w a s – w h e r e i n t h e y w e r e f a c i li ta t in g t h e a w a r d s o f – y o u
k n o w - c o n tr a c ts b y Tr a n s n e t t o M c K in s e y a n d R e g i m e n ts a n d M r Es s a
20

a n d Mr M o o d l e y w o u ld t h e n r e c e iv e th o s e i n tr o d u c t o r y f e e s t h r o u g h
t h e ir o w n v e h ic le s i n th is r e g a r d i t w a s H o m ix a n d C h iv it a . Yo u w o u ld
r e c a l l th a t t h a t is w h a t M r S i n t o n t o l d y o u .

This appeared to be a

m o d u s o p e r a n d i C h a ir a s y o u h a v e h e a r d fr o m M r Va n D e r W e s th u iz e n
w h o a ls o te s t i fi e d b e f o r e th e C h a ir t h a t – a n d d e a l t w i t h t h e s p u r i o u s
c o n tr a c ts b e t w e e n N e o te l a n d H o m ix i n t e r m s o f w h ic h – y o u k n o w -

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
f u n d s w e r e a ls o p a id to H o m ix fo r f a c i li t a ti n g t h o s e d u b i o u s c o n tr a c ts .
A ls o r e l e v a n t C h a ir w a s th e e v i d e n c e o f M r S e d u m e d i w h o t e s ti f ie d
a b o u t th e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n M r S a l i m E s s a a n d C h i n a S o u t h R a i l
w h e r e in a ls o h e u s e d h is c o m p a n y Te q u e s t a in o r d e r t o – t o o b ta in a
s u b s t a n t ia l f e e o f w h a t w a s t e r m e d a s u c c e s s fe e C h a ir a n d w e w a n t t o
lo c a t e t h e e v i d e n c e Mr M a z i b u k o in d e p e n d e n t fr o m h i m b e i n g a n
e m p l o y e e o f Tr a n s n e t a n d s i m p l y t o t a l k a b o u t th e e x p e r ie n c e s a n d
in v e s t i g a t io n s th a t w e r e c o n d u c te d b y S A R B i n r e la t io n to H o m i x
M r C h a ir. M r C h a i r w e a r e r e a d y to l e a d t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r M a z i b u k o .
10

M a y t h e w it n e s s b e s w o r n in ?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S h iw a E li ja h M a z ib u k o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : N o , I d o n o t h a v e .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s , i t d o e s .
20

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n ly s w e a r th a t a l l t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e
w i ll b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th i f s o p l e a s e
r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o h e l p m e G o d .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s )
REGISTRAR: Thank you.

Page 110 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr M a z i b u k o in

le a d i n g y o u r te s t i m o n y w e w i ll b e r e fe r r in g t o a f il e t h a t h a s b e e n
p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u . Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t i t h a s b e e n m a r k e d E X H I B I T B 1 2 .
A r e y o u h a v i n g t h e r i g h t fi le b e f o r e y o u ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w i ll b e m a r k e d o n t h e s p i n e a s B 1 2 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O n t h e s p in e y o u w ill s e e th a t i t h a s

been marked BB12.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n th e o u t s i d e o n th e s p in e – is i t n o t m a r k e d B B 1 2 ?
10

I t l o o k s l ik e i t i s n o t m a r k e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f y o u tu r n – i f y o u t u r n t o t h e f il e i ts e l f
t h e r e m u s t b e a c o v e r p a g e a n d t h e f ir s t p a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m s u r e th a t h e h a s g o t t h e r i g h t fi l e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I h o p e s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s if m y a s s is t a n t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u w a n t to c h e c k t h a t?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : J u s t t o c h e c k t h a t C h a i r t h a t i s t h e r ig h t
fi le …

20

CHAIRPERSON: And then it must be marked …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B e c u e t h e r e h a v e b e e n d i ffe r e n t – t w o

w i t n e s s e s ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it m u s t b e m a r k e d , j a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Th a t is f i n e . I f y o u t u r n t o – is th a t o n e
marked Mr Mazibuko?

Page 111 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t is m a r k e d B B 1 2 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B B 1 2 y e s a n d m a y b e w h il e y o u a r e s ti ll
in t h a t fi le I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a r e – w e w il l b e s i n g i n g
fr o m t h e s a m e h y m n b o o k m e a n d y o u . L e t u s g o to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll h e n e e d t h e o th e r o n e o r s h o u l d h e p u t i t a w a y ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e w o u l d n e e d a n o t h e r o n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , h e w il l n e e d it o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s t h e o n e th a t i s p r e p a r e d th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e fo r i n tr o d u c t o r y p u r p o s e s C h a i r w e

w i ll s i m p l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M a z i b u k o y o u w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s C h a i r. T h a t t h e o n e s t h a t I h a v e
g o t I h a v e m a d e s o m e n o te s s o m e w h e r e . S o I m ig h t b e lo s t s o m e ti m e s
b u t I b e li e v e t h a t
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t is s i m il a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w il l h e l p y o u - y o u c a n
lo o k a t t h a t o n e a n d s t il l – b u t s t il l u s e t h is o n e fo r a ll th e p a g e …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

N u m b e r s b e c a u s e w e d o n o t w a n t to ta lk a b o u t

d i ff e r e n t p a g e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o te d C h a ir.

Page 112 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
document.

Mr M a z i b u k o g o to p a g e 1 o f th a t

Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t th e p a g e s a r e m a r k e d o n th e to p r i g h t

hand side.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A r e y o u a b l e to i d e n ti fy t h a t d o c u m e n t

for us?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . Ye s , C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h a t is t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h e d o c u m e n t i s m y s ta t e m e n t . I t
is t h e fir s t p a g e o f m y s t a te m e n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . M a y b e le t u s – b e c a u s e I a m t o ld
t h a t t h e n u m b e r in g a r e th e s a m e . L e t u s n o w r e s o r t t o y o u r f il e . L e t u s
u s e y o u r f il e s o t h a t y o u a r e n o t l o s t a n d t h e n g o t o p a g e 1 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : P a g e 1 w i ll b e – j u s t a p o l o g is e – w i ll
b e h e r e b e c a u s e I s e p a r a t e d m y s t a te m e n t fr o m …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Fr o m t h e a n n e x u r e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Fr o m t h e a n n e x u r e s , y e s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o n o t g e t lo s t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a k e s u r e t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g – w e a r e
r e fe r r i n g t o th e s a m e d o c u m e n ts . N o w i f y o u g o t o p a g e 3 0 – 3 - 0 …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e c o n c l u s i o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s b u t a r e y o u a b l e to i d e n t if y t h e

s ig n a tu r e t h a t a p p e a r s i n th a t d o c u m e n t ?

Page 113 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h o s e s i g n a tu r e i s t h a t?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t is m i n e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w a r e t h e r e a n y c o r r e c ti o n s

w h ic h y o u w is h t o e ff e c t fr o m y o u r s t a te m e n t?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e r e w a s a t y p o w it h r e g a r d t o s o m e
fi g u r e s i n te r m s o f ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u c a n l o o k – y o u c a n l o o k a t y o u r o t h e r f il e if
t h a t w i ll m a k e y o u f i n d it e a s i e r …
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n c o m e to t h i s o n e ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Let me refer you to page 25.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s p a g e 2 5 t h e c r e d it i n g to t h e

S t a n d a r d B a n k ’s H o m i x a c c o u n t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d – a n d t h a t i s t h e o n l y p a g e t h a t
y o u w is h t o e ffe c t s o m e c o r r e c ti o n s . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t p a g e 5 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 2-5.
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : 2 - 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: 25.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

2 - 5 – y o u w i ll s e e C h a ir i t is – b e g i n s

w i t h p a r a g r a p h o r w it h a n u m b e r 7 . 2 a n d i t s a y s c r e d i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d th e r e is a n a m o u n t t h a t M r M a z i b u k o

Page 114 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a lr e a d y e ff e c te d th e c h a n g e o n Mr C h a ir a n d i n d u e c o u r s e I w il l b e g
le a v e to h a n d i n a n e w p a g e . I t is j u s t o n e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: That has been corrected.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O t h e r th a n – o t h e r t h a n t h a t c o r r e c t io n

M r M a z i b u k o d o y o u c o n fir m t h e c o n te n ts o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t t o b e b o t h
tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I d o C h a i r p e r s o n . I d o c o n f ir m .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w w i ll y o u p l e a s e s h a r e w i t h t h e C h a ir
a s to w h e r e a r e y o u c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
Reserve

Bank.

I

am

the

I a m e m p l o y e d a t th e S o u th A fr ic a n
Head

of

the

F i n a n c ia l

S u r v e il la n c e

D e p a r t m e n t.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d i n t h a t c a p a c i ty w h a t a r e y o u r

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a n d f u n c ti o n s ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
20

S o I a m r e s p o n s i b l e f o r h e a d i n g th e

d e p a r t m e n t th a t is r e s p o n s ib l e fo r i m p l e m e n t i n g a n d a d m in is t e r i n g
e x c h a n g e c o n tr o ls o n – o n b e h a l f o f t h e M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

Ye s

and

then

what

are

your

q u a li fi c a t io n s ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I h a v e a B C o m A c c o u n t in g , M B A a n d

A d v a n c e d D ip lo m a i n Tr e a s u r y a n d I n te r n a ti o n a l Tr a d e Fi n a n c e .

Page 115 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A lr i g h t .

Now am I correct that your

s t a te m e n t w a s p r e p a r e d in r e s p o n s e t o a s u m m o n s w h i c h w a s r e c e iv e d
by SARB from the Commission. Am I correct?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w m a y I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 2 a n d

p a r a g r a p h 3 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d p l e a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h th e
in f o r m a ti o n w h ic h w a s s o u g h t b y t h e C o m m i s s io n in r e s p e c t o f th a t
summons. Are you on page 3?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s I a m o n ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: On page 2 paragraph 3?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

P l e a s e t a k e t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h a t

in f o r m a ti o n i n 3 . 1 a n d 3 . 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. M r M o k o e n a y o u t a lk e d a b o u t
r e p l a c in g o n e o f t h e p a g e s i n t h i s s t a te m e n t .

I t m a y b e th a t p a g e 2

s h o u l d a ls o b e r e p l a c e d i f p o s s ib le . Yo u s e e a t t h e t o p th e r e y o u h a v e
g o t c o n c lu s i o n a n d t h e n i n t r o d u c ti o n th e n y o u h a v e g o t t h o s e n u m b e r s
w h ic h I b e l ie v e b e l o n g t o t h e i n d e x .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: So …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: I see there …
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y t o m a k e t h e i n d e x t o h a v e i ts

o w n p a g e s th a t a r e s e p a r a t e fr o m t h e s e i f p o s s i b l e . S o t h a t o n e d o e s
n o t g e t c o n fu s e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir.

Page 116 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E v e n th o u g h th e y f l o w f r o m p a g e 1 if y o u
s e e fr o m p a g e 1 y o u h a v e th e c o n t e n t s a n d I s e e th a t f r o m t h e c o n te n ts
it g o e s t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

U p u n t il p a g e 2 b u t I t h i n k th e r e m i g h t

b e a m id w a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. If it is easy …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To s e p a r a te .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : If it is e a s y to s o r t it o u t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e . I f – i f th e r e is a p r o b le m t h e n
w e c a n l iv e w i th i t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e h a v e m a d e a n o t e o n th a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So Chairperson the – under page 2

s e c t io n 3 is w h e r e t h e s u m m o n s fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n r e q u i r e d th e
R e s e r v e B a n k t o p r e s e n t c e r t a i n i n fo r m a t i o n t o i t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is p a r a g r a p h 3 ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d u n d e r 3 .1 it – a n d o p e n q u o t e s :
“ R e p o r t a n d a ll s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n t a ti o n o f th e
in s p e c t io n s a n d /o r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s c o n d u c t e d b y t h e

Page 117 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
S o u th

A fr ic a n

Reserve

Bank

in

te r m s

of

the

Currency and Exchanges Act 9 of 1933 read with
t h e E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l R e g u l a ti o n i n r e s p e c t o f th e
company Homix (Pty) Ltd.
number

201217695107

n a m e ly

C o m p a n y r e g is t r a t io n

( H o mi x ) .

It s

D ir e c t o r s

M r Ta u fi q J a k o e t H a s w e ll ,

M r Ya k u b A h m e d S u le i m a n B h ik h u

and

Mr Mogamat Shaik Adams.”
And then on 3.2 open quotes:
“ T h e S o u th A f r ic a n R e s e r v e B a n k a n a ly s is o f t h e

10

fl o w o f f u n d s o n b a n k a c c o u n ts h e ld b y H o m i x
a n d / o r i t s D ir e c t o r s a n d / o r r e l a t e d p a r ti e s b o th
d o m e s ti c a lly

and

i n t e r n a t io n a l ly

in c l u d i n g

any

s u s p i c i o u s a n d ir r e g u l a r d o m e s t ic c r o s s b o r d e r
tr a n s a c ti o n s . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h a t is t h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e
t o d a y. A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Now you were also requested by the

C o m m i s s i o n to te s ti fy o n t h e f o l lo w in g e x c h a n g e tr a n s a c ti o n s in v o lv in g
Homix.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M a y I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 4 o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a z ib u k o j u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u a r e n o t s p e a k in g

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
fr o m to o f a r fr o m t h e m i c r o p h o n e a n d d o n o t lo w e r y o u r v o i c e to o m u c h
s o th a t e v e r y b o d y h e a r y o u r e v id e n c e . T h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir I h a v e ju s t r e f e r r e d th e w i tn e s s –
M r M a z i b u k o – to p a g e 4 . Yo u w i ll s e e M r M a z i b u k o th a t f r o m p a g e 4 a t
p a r a g r a p h 6 o n w a r d s y o u te ll u s a b o u t th e S o u t h A fr ic a n R e s e r v e B a n k
E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l a n d y o u a ls o d e a l a b o u t a d e p a r t m e n t r e f e r r e d t o a s
Fi n S e r v e . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C o u l d y o u p l e a s e – I m e a n in y o u r o w n
10

w o r d s – s i m p l y t e l l t h e c o u r t – t h e C h a ir w h e r e d o e s o n e l o c a te t h is
d e p a r t m e n t w it h in S A R B a n d w h a t a r e t h e f u n c ti o n s o f th is d e p a r t m e n t?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I w o u l d l ik e t o m a y b e g iv e a b r i e f

b a c k g r o u n d o f E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l b e fo r e I p u t t h e s tr u c t u r e o f t h e
d e p a r t m e n t fr o m …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e , y e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
me.

I f th e C h a ir p e r s o n a l lo w s to i n d u l g e

J u s t to g iv e a – b e c a u s e fo r u s t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e E x c h a n g e

C o n tr o l e m a n a te d fr o m i t c a m e h i s t o r ic a l ly a s w e a ll u d e d t o – y o u k n o w
20

– the summons where it refers to Currency and Exchanges Act of 1933.
I t i s a n o l d A c t a n d th a t i s w h e n – i t i s a f o u n d a t i o n o f E x c h a n g e
C o n tr o l w h e r e i t g iv e s p o w e r s to t h e Pr e s id e n t i n t e r m s o f i s s u e s t h a t
h e c a n b e a b l e to ta k e d e c i s i o n s w i th r e g a r d to c u r r e n c y m a t t e r s ,
b a n k i n g m a t t e r s a n d e x c h a n g e s . S o th a t w a s a f o u n d a t i o n a n d it w a s
p r i o r t o Ex c h a n g e C o n tr o l b e i n g i n tr o d u c e d .

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I might say even around

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e w o r l d b e c a u s e a s I p r o c e e d y o u w i ll s e e th a t th e n e x t y e a r w h e n
E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l w a s in tr o d u c e d w a s i n 1 9 3 9 u n d e r th e S te r l in g Bl o c .
S o u th A f r ic a w a s s t il l p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f t h e S t e r li n g B lo c o r w h a t i s
c a l l e d n o w a S t e r l in g A r e a a n d i t w a s a t t h e s t a r t o f t h e S e c o n d W o r l d
Wa r. I t h i n k w e n e e d t o n o t e t h i s t h a t t h e r e w a s a c r is is a n d y o u w i ll
s e e a s I p r o c e e d h o w a c t u a ll y E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l h a s e v o lv e d e s p e c ia ll y
d u r i n g c r i s is p e r i o d s to h e l p . S o S o u t h A fr i c a w a s p a r t o f t h e S t e r l in g
B l o c d u r i n g t h e s t a r t o f t h e S e c o n d W o r ld W a r a n d t h e y f o r m e d t h e
S t e r li n g B l o c t o p r o t e c t a n d c o n s e r v e t h e l i m i te d c u r r e n c y – b e c a u s e
10

t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n s d u r i n g th e W a r t h a t – y o u k n o w – c o u n tr ie s w i ll
n o t b e a b l e t r a d e a n d b e a b l e t o a c c u m u l a t e c u r r e n c y. S o S o u t h A f r i c a ,
A u s tr a li a a n u m b e r o f c o u n tr i e s B a h a m a s a n d a l l t h a t w e r e p a r t o f t h a t
– o f th a t b lo c a n d t h e n t h e W a r c o n ti n u e d a n d w h e n t h e – t h e W a r
e n d e d m o s t o f t h e e v e n A u s t r a li a 1 9 6 7 le f t th e b lo c . I t h i n k e v e n t h e
B r i ti s h E m p i r e i n t h e e a r ly 7 0 s – y o u k n o w – le f t t h e b lo c b u t S o u th
A fr ic a c o n t i n u e d to a c t u a ll y a p p l y o n a l i m i t e d s c a l e o f c o u r s e – th e s e
e x c h a n g e c o n tr o ls w i t h t h e r e s t o f t h e w o r l d i n t o t h e 1 9 5 0 s a n d t h e n
c o m e 2 1 M a r c h 1 9 6 0 a n o t h e r c r i s is in t h e c o u n tr y.

T h e S h a r p e v i ll e

M a s s a c r e th a t le d t o th e h u g e o u t f lo w s o f m o n e y o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d
20

t h e r e g i m e o f t h e t i m e h a d to d o s o m e th i n g t o t r y a n d s t e m th e fl o w s
a n d o n e o f th e th i n g s t h e y c o u l d d o w a s to a c t u a ll y h a v e t h e
r e g u la t io n s p u t in p l a c e t o b e a b l e to p r o h i b i t S o u th A fr ic a n r e s i d e n c e
t o b e a b l e t o a c t u a l ly ta k e m o n e y o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d h e n c e i t w a s
t h e n w h e n y o u to o k a b o u t E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l R e g u l a t i o n s o f 1 9 6 1 i t w a s
ju s t a ft e r t h e u p h e a v a l o f S h a r p e v i ll e i n 1 9 6 0 a n d t h e n fr o m t h e y – t h e y

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
e v o lv e d b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e th e r e g u la t io n s – r e g u l a ti o n s b y n a tu r e th e y
d o h a v e t h e f o r c e o f th e l a w. T h e y a r e n o t t h e l a w b u t t h e y a r e a c t u a l ly
c r e a te d u n d e r s t a t u t e s a n d t h e r e fo r e th e y a r e e n f o r c e a b l e . T h e y e v e n
c o n ta in p e n a lt i e s fo r v i o la t io n s .

N o w – a n d th e n S o u t h A fr ic a

p r o c e e d e d w i th t h e m – y o u k n o w. T h e – t h e is s u e o f t h a t p a s t b u t th e
e c o n o m y a f te r t h a t w a s – w a s w e a k e n e d b e c a u s e i t w a s s t a r ti n g t o
h a v e s a n c t io n s a n d p r o b le m s in t e r m s o f t h e p a y m e n t . U p t o th e p o in t
o f 1 9 8 5 w h e r e w e h a d a n o t h e r c r is i s a g a i n .

Where we had what is

c a l l e d a d e b t s ta n d s ti ll w h e r e t h e b a la n c e o f p a y m e n t c o m e – c a m e
10

u n d e r i m m e n s e p r e s s u r e . S o S o u t h A fr ic a n s e x t e r n a l p o s i t io n w a s v e r y
m u c h p r e c a r i o u s t h a t w e c o u ld n o t b e a b l e t o p a y o u r e x te r n a l d e b t a n d
t h e p r e s i d e n t o f t h e ti m e - if y o u r e m e m b e r i t w a s f r o m F W t o P W.

I

m e a n f r o m P W t o F W - w h e r e a c tu a lly a d e b t s t a n d s ti ll w a s d e c la r e d i n
1 9 8 5 . I t w a s u p l i ft e d i n 2 0 0 2 . S o d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d S o u t h A f r ic a c o u l d
n o t b e a b l e t o p a y t h e e x t e r n a l d e b t t o n o n - r e s i d e n c e a n d th e n – y o u
k n o w – w e c o n ti n u e d a g a i n w i t h t h e E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l b u t I m u s t
h i g h l ig h t th a t – y o u k n o w – t h e r e w a s a C o m m i s s io n in 1 9 7 9 w h i c h I l e f t
b u t – D e K o c k C o m m i s s i o n o n E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l – w h e r e i t w a s
h i g h l ig h te d a n d r e c o m m e n d e d th a t t h e r e m u s t b e li b e r a li s e d o v e r t i m e in
20

a g r a d u a l a p p r o a c h . S o i t s h o u ld n o t b e a b i g b a n g . S o t h e y w e r e s ti ll
t h e r e b u t l ib e r a l is a ti o n p r o c e s s b e c a u s e S o u th A f r ic a ’s e c o n o m y a n d
t h e s tr u c t u r e r e c o n w a s s t il l v e r y w e a k tr y in g t o b u il d a n e c o n o my a n d
tr y i n g t o p r o te c t a n d b u i ld S o u t h A f r ic a n R e s e r v e s a t th a t p a r t ic u l a r
ti m e . S o – s o t h e y w e r e m a i n t a i n e d a n d t h e n a s I h a v e a ll u d e d to 1 9 8 5
a n d t h e n c a m e 1 9 9 4 t h e n e w d e m o c r a t ic G o v e r n m e n t t o o k p o w e r b u t

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t h e s tr u c t u r e o f t h e e c o n o m y w a s s t il l n o t v e r y s tr o n g b u t a d e c is io n
w a s t a k e n n o w t o a c t u a l ly a d o p t t h e r e g u la r r e l a x a ti o n o v e r t h e y e a r s
t h a t i t c a n n o t b e a b ig b a n k .

L o o k a t t h e s tr u c t u r e o f th e e c o n o my

m a c r o , fi n a n c i a l s ta b i li t y o f th e c o u n tr y a n d b e a b l e t o ta k e i t a lo n g a s
t h e c o u n t r y ’s p o s i ti o n i m p r o v e s a n d t h e n f r o m t h e r e in 1 9 9 5 it is w h e n
a c t u a ll y n o n - r e s i d e n c e n e v e r h a d e x c h a n g e c o n tr o ls . I d o n o t w a n t t o
g o i n t o d e t a ils b e c a u s e th e r e w a s q u it e s o m e d e v e l o p m e n t l ik e t h e
fi n a n c i a l r a n d c a n ta k e m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e w h o l e d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: No, do not.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e w h o l e d a y t o – t o e x p la in t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

And then - and then came the 2008

c r is is – fi n a n c i a l c r is is . Yo u k n o w – w e n o t – t h e E x c h a n g e C o n t r o l w a s
n o t d ir e c t ly i n v o l v e d b u t i ts i m p a c t - I th i n k – w a s f e l t in a s e n s e t h a t
o u r b a n k s a t t h a t p a r ti c u l a r ti m e c o u ld n o t h o ld f o r e i g n a s s e ts e x c e p t
whit an approval of course.

W e h a d a ll o w e d s o m e b a n k s to g o o ff

s h o r e t o s e t u p f o r e i g n b r a n c h e s a n d a l l t h a t a n d d u r i n g t h e fi n a n c i a l
20

c r is is t h e y w e r e th e m o s t a ffe c te d a n d o b v io u s ly t h e r e w a s a t e r m t h a t
w a s c a ll e d to x i c a s s e ts t h a t a c tu a lly – t h a t w a s n o t o n l y p e c u li a r t o
S o u th A f r ic a n a s s e ts . It w a s a l l o v e r th e w o r l d t h a t y o u h a d to a c tu a lly
o u t o f t h is c r i s is h o w a r e y o u g o i n g t o d e a l w i th t h a t a n d w e
a p p r o a c h e d E x c h a n g e C o n t r o l to s a y c a n w e b r in g s o m e o f t h is o n t o t h e
S A B a la n c e S h e e t w h ic h y o u c o u l d n o t a ll o w t h a t a n d w e a l lo w e d y o u t o

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
g o o ff s h o r e t o e x p a n d y o u r o p e r a t io n s a n d a ll t h a t b u t i t c a n n o t h a v e a
r e c o u r s e t o S o u t h A f r ic a t h a t c o u l d i m p a c t – y o u k n o w – t h e S o u th
A fr ic a n p o s i t io n a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r t i m e . S o – s o I a m j u s t g o i n g th r o u g h
t h e c r is is a n d t h e b e n e f it o f th is a n d t h e n b u t d u r in g th e 2 0 0 8 th e
g r a d u a l p r o c e s s o f l i b e r a lis a ti o n h a d ta k e n p l a c e .

I f I m a k e ju s t o n e

e x a m p l e t h a t b e fo r e 1 9 9 7 a S o u t h A f r i c a n in d i v i d u a l c o u l d n o t tr a n s f e r
m o n e y o u t o f S o u th A f r i c a .

I n 1 9 9 7 th e f ir s t a m o u n t w a s R 2 0 0 0 0 0 –

y o u k n o w – p e r l i fe ti m e y o u c o u l d ta k e i t o u t .
in c r e a s e d o v e r t h e y e a r s .
10

Th is a m o u n t w a s

N o w y o u c a n t a k e a b o u t R 1 0 m i ll io n p e r

y e a r. S o i t j u s t s h o w s t h e e v o l u t i o n o f t h e s y s t e m . H o w i t h a s t o b e
li b e r a lis e d , g e t r i d o f r e d t a p e a n d a ll th a t . N o w c o m in g to t h e R e s e r v e
Bank.

T h i s f u n c ti o n is d e l e g a t e d t o th e S o u th A fr ic a n R e s e r v e B a n k .

T h i s d e p a r t m e n t t h a t I a m h e a d i n g s i t s w i t h i n th e R e s e r v e B a n k . Th e
M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e is a c u s t o d ia n o f t h e E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l P o li c y. W e
a c t i n t h e a d v is o r y c a p a c i ty b e c a u s e w e d e a l w i th t h e m a r k e t a n d a l l
t h a t b u t a ll p o l ic y i s s u e s a r e t a k e n b y t h e M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e a n d t h e n
b y d e l e g a t io n o f p o w e r s i n t e r m s o f E x c h a n g e C o n t r o l R e g u l a ti o n s 2 2 E .
T h i s h a s b e e n d e le g a te d .

Th e s e p o w e r s t h a t h a v e b e e n g i v e n to

Tr e a s u r y h a s n o w b e e n d e l e g a t e d t h r o u g h th e p r o v i s i o n s o f E x c h a n g e
20

C o n tr o l R e g u l a ti o n s t o t h e G o v e r n o r o f th e R e s e r v e B a n k t o t h e D e p u t y
G o v e r n o r s , H e a d o f F i n a n c ia l S u r v e i ll a n c e a n d D iv is i o n a l H e a d s a n d
O ff ic i a ls d e s i g n a t e d t o d e a l i n th e s e i s s u e s . S o i t is s i t u a t e d t h e r e a s a
delegated function.

W i t h i n th is d e p a r t m e n t t h e r e a r e s i x d iv i s i o n s .

I

a m n o t g o i n g to f o c u s o n – o n a ll t h e d i v is io n s b u t t h e m a i n d i v is i o n
e s p e c i a l ly f o r my s u b m i s s i o n t o d a y i s th e C o m p l ia n c e a n d E n fo r c e m e n t

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
D i v is io n . S o t h a t is a d i v is i o n t h a t w i ll a c t u a ll y b e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h a n y
c o n tr a v e n ti o n s o f Ex c h a n g e C o n t r o l t h a t a r e b r o u g h t to i ts a t t e n t i o n .
Now

what

happens

in

that

process

is

that

Exchange

C o n tr o l

C o n tr a v e n t i o n s w e g e t b y a c tu a l ly g o i n g th r o u g h – y o u k n o w – a
n u m b e r o f p r o c e s s e s s o m e t i m e s w it h in t h e d e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e w e
h a v e g o t w h a t y o u c a l l a c r o s s b o r d e r s y s t e m t h a t c a p t u r e s i n f o r m a ti o n
b e c a u s e b e f o r e y o u c a n b e a b l e t o b e c a l le d a n a u t h o r is e d d e a l e r –
m a y b e I m u s t a ls o ju s t to u g h o n th a t t o s a y th a t w e a c t u a l ly g iv e
a u t h o r i t ie s t o c o m m e r c ia l b a n k s .
10

A c o m m e r c i a l b a n k w h e n it i s

e s t a b li s h e d i n t h e p a s t i t u s e d t o g o t o t h e – w h a t w a s c a l le d a b a n k
s u p e r v i s i o n a n d t h e n o n c e i t h a s g o t a l ic e n c e i t w ill c o m e t o u s to
r e q u e s t t o tr a d e in f o r e x .

Yo u c a n n o t i n S o u th A f r i c a ju s t c o m e a n d

tr a d e i n fo r e x . T h e r e g u l a t e d a s s e t t h a t – a s s e t c l a s s th a t w e n e e d t o
d e a l w it h .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M a y b e b e fo r e y o u g o t h e r e m a y b e

e d u c a t e u s a s t o w h a t a r e t h e i n s tr u m e n t s th a t w o u ld o r d i n a r i ly g o v e r n
– y o u k n o w – e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l . S o t h a t w h e n y o u n o w – y o u k n o w –
t e s ti fy a b o u t t h e o t h e r is s u e s t h e y c a n n e a tl y t ie …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o …
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W i th t h a t e v id e n c e , y e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h e w h o l e in s t r u m e n t is – is t h e

E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l i ts e lf – i f I m a y p u t i t t h a t w a y C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e
a s I s p o k e a b o u t t h e p r e c a r io u s e x t e r n a l p o s i t io n th e S o u th A fr ic a n
G o v e r n m e n t u s e d t h e in s tr u m e n t w h i c h w a s c a l le d E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l t o
d e a l w i t h t h e n o n - p a y m e n t o f d e b t a n d a ll t h a t . N o w – s o t h e E x c h a n g e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C o n tr o l R e g u la t io n s w h ic h t h e n w h a t w e a c t u a ll y d i d t o th e b a n k s a f t e r
t h e y h a v e b e e n a u t h o r i s e d w e g a v e t h e m a u th o r it y.

We gave them

p e r m is s io n . W e g a v e t h e m li m i t s fo r w h ic h t o b e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h th e ir
c li e n t s w it h o u t c o m in g to th e c e n tr a l b a n k . T h a t w a s m e a n t t o a c t u a ll y
r e d u c e r e d ta p e b e c a u s e i n t h e p a s t – y o u k n o w – m o s t o f t h e
a p p lic a ti o n s w e r e c o m i n g – n o w y o u h a v e g o t b a n k s th a t h a v e b e e n
authorised. As I say that when you are a commercial bank you cannot
ju s t b e a u t h o r i s e d . N o w th e r e is a PA . I f t h e y g iv e y o u a lic e n c e y o u
c a n j u s t t o m o r r o w d e c id e – th e r e a r e r e q u i r e m e n ts – r e p o r t in g
10

r e q u ir e m e n t s th a t w h e n y o u a r e a c t u a ll y a n a u t h o r is e d d e a l e r y o u m u s t
b e a b l e t o r e p o r t s o t h a t c r o s s b o r d e r tr a n s a c ti o n s m a y b e – m u s t b e
monitored

and

t h is

department

a c t u a lly

monitors

cross

border

tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d w h y d o w e m o n it o r th e m is b e c a u s e w e w a n t t o m a k e
s u r e t h a t – y o u k n o w – E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l R e g u l a ti o n s r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t
a c t u a ll y b e c a u s e b y n a t u r e t h e y a r e v e r y p r o h i b i t iv e . S o – a n d – a n d –
t h e r e is – t h e r e i s – i t is o n l y th r o u g h e x c e p ti o n s t h a t w e g r a n t o r
Tr e a s u r y h a s g r a n t e d th e R e s e r v e B a n k a n d i t w a s t h e n c a s c a d e d d o w n
t o th e b a n k s a n d t h e n w e h a v e g iv e n i t t o t h e a u th o r is e d d e a l e r s t o s a y
y o u c a n o n l y d o th is fo r y o u r c u s t o m e r s s o t h a t y o u d o n o t a c tu a lly –
20

y o u m a k e th e s y s t e m v e r y m u c h e ffi c i e n t. Yo u d o n o t c o m e t o u s . S o
t h e r e is w h a t is c a l le d a c u r r e n c y a n d e x c h a n g e is m a n u a l f o r
a u t h o r i s e d d e a le r s . S o t h e b a n k s w h e n y o u c o m e t o tr a v e l – I m a d e a n
e x a m p l e h e r e . It to u c h e s e v e r y b o d y. Yo u g o t o t h e a ir p o r t y o u b u y a
ti c k e t . Yo u a r e tr a v e l li n g to E u r o p e . T h e r e a r e r u l e s i n t o t h e m a n u a l
t h a t s a y s t h a t b a n k b e f o r e i t s e ll s y o u c u r r e n c y w h a t i t s h o u l d lo o k a t –

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
it s h o u ld g e t y o u r p a s s p o r t .

It s h o u ld h a v e t h e c o n fir m a t io n t h a t y o u

a r e r e a l ly tr a v e l li n g a n d t h e n th e y c a n s e l l y o u c u r r e n c y a n d th e r e is a
r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k t h a t c u r r e n c y s h o u l d b e s o ld
b a c k t o Tr e a s u r y. S o y o u g o b a c k t o t h e b a n k . Yo u a r e g iv e n 6 0 d a y s
p r i o r t o tr a v e l – y o u k n o w – w h e t h e r fo r h e d g i n g o r w h a t e v e r to – fo r
e x c h a n g e r a te r is k to b e a b le t o a s s e s s y o u r s i tu a ti o n w h e th e r y o u w a n t
t o b u y D o l la r s n o w tr a v e l li n g i n A u g u s t a n d a ll t h a t . S o – s o – a n d –
b u t w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k w i t h i n 3 0 d a y s y o u n e e d t o s e ll i t b e c a u s e
S o u th A fr ic a is a R a n d m o n e ta r y a r e a . Yo u w i ll n o t k e e p D o l la r s . S o
10

a u t h o r i s e d d e a l e r s a r e a u t h o r is e d to s e ll a n d b u y fo r e ig n c u r r e n c y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y I n o w – m a y I r e fe r y o u M r M a z i b u k o
t o p a g e 5 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t s ta r t i n g fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 0 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h e r e y o u o u tl i n e t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s

p r o h ib i te d b y t h e E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l R e g u l a ti o n s . C a n y o u p l e a s e ta k e
u s th r o u g h t h a t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o t h e – t h e – s o w h e n y o u b u y
f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y y o u b u y i t fo r a p u r p o s e . W h e n y o u g o t o t h e b a n k y o u
d o n o t j u s t b u y fo r e i g n c u r r e n c y. Yo u b u y i t . Yo u s a y li k e I m a d e a n
20

e x a m p l e o f tr a v e ll i n g .

S o y o u a r e tr a v e l li n g .

S o t h e y w i ll g iv e y o u

f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y f o r y o u r tr a v e l a n d th e n fo r y o u r i m p o r t t r a n s a c t io n
y o u w i ll s a y I h a v e o r d e r e d g o o d s o ffs h o r e . I n e e d to a c t u a l ly p a y th e
s u p p li e r t h a t is th a t p u r p o s e . S h o u l d h e u s e i t fo r s o m e t h in g e ls e i t is
a c o n t r a v e n ti o n . S o i t is u s e d f o r t h e p u r p o s e th a t y o u a c tu a l ly a p p li e d
for

but

also

t a k in g

the

currency

out

Page 126 of 212

of

the

c o u n tr y

w i th o u t

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a u t h o r i s a t io n . N o w if y o u g o to th e a ir p o r t w e w o r k t o g e t h e r w it h s o m e
s t a te a g e n c ie s . Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t a s I p r o c e e d w e w o r k w i th S A R S . W e
a r e n o t t h e r e a s f in a n c ia l s u r v e il la n c e b u t if y o u a r e tr a v e ll i n g t h e r e a r e
c u s t o m s o ffi c i a l s a t t h e p o r ts o f e n tr y w h i c h t h e y c a n s t o p y o u a n d a s k
y o u a n d th e y c a n s e a r c h y o u . I f th e y fi n d f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y th e q u e s ti o n
t h e y w ill a s k y o u to s a y w h e r e d i d y o u g e t i t a n d th e n y o u n e e d t o
e x p l a i n a n d t h e n b e c a u s e I s a y t h is is a R a n d m o n e t a r y a r e a .

S o u th

A fr ic a w e a r e u s i n g R a n d a n d y o u s a y I b o u g h t i t fr o m o n e o f t h e b a n k s .
T h e y s a y o k a y c a n w e h a v e a r e c e ip t t o s h o w t o u s . If y o u d o n o t h a v e
10

t h a t m o n e y u n f o r t u n a t e l y w il l b e c o n f is c a t e d a n d t h e n w e h a v e g o t –
you know – we have got what you call airport cases.

W e fe t c h t h e s e

m o n i e s fr o m t i m e t o ti m e t h a t c o n f is c a t e d f r o m t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e
a c t u a ll y – y o u k n o w – c a r r y i n g t h e s e m o n ie s il le g a l ly.

S o – a n d th e n

t h e r e i s w h a t is c a ll e d S e c ti o n 1 T, 1 0 1 C , E x p o r t in g o f C a p i ta l . N o w w e
a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t b i g c o m p a n ie s …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : H e r e th a t c o u l d a c tu a lly e x p o r t c a p i t a l
w i t h o u t a u t h o r is a ti o n a n d - a n d if y o u d o t h a t a s w e ll y o u a r e g o i n g t o
s e t a n o p e r a t io n o ffs h o r e w i th o u t u s k n o w in g . If y o u a r e c a u g h t – y o u
20

k n o w – b e c a u s e t h e r e g u l a ti o n s i n te r m s o f – t h e r e is w h a t is c a ll e d
R e g u l a ti o n 6 w h ic h i s – t a lk s a b o u t r e p a t r ia t io n s t h a t w h a te v e r m o n e y
t h a t y o u t a k e o ffs h o r e y o u e a r n i t y o u r e p a tr i a t e i t …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: yes.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d y o u b r i n g i t b a c k .

If you do not

y o u a r e a c t u a ll y v i o l a ti n g – s o – s o 1 0 1 C s a y s e v e n t h e I P y o u c a n n o t

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ju s t s e ll i t , a s s ig n i t – y o u k n o w – b e c a u s e i t is a S o u th A fr ic a n
in t e l le c t u a l p r o p e r t y. S o u t h A fr ic a e i t h e r i t g a i n s m o n e y o u t o f i t . Yo u
c a n n o t j u s t a n I P d e v e l o p i n S o u t h A fr ic a n a n d t h e n a c t u a lly t a k e i t
o ffs h o r e w i t h o u t S o u th A fr ic a n g a i n i n g a n y t h i n g .
S o t h e s e r u l e s th e y w o r k t h a t w a y, t h e y a r e s o b r o a d b e c a u s e
y o u k n o w, h e r e i n p a g e fiv e C h a ir p e r s o n w e h ig h l i g h t e d j u s t a f e w
t h i n g s th e y w o r k i n t e r m s o f fa ls if ic a ti o n o f i n fo r m a ti o n , t h e y g iv e u s
p o w e r s to b l o c k a n a c c o u n t w e c a n b l o c k a n a c c o u n t i m m e d i a te ly w h e r e
w e p e r c e i v e t h e r e ’s a s u s p ic i o n o r a c tu a l l y c o n tr a v e n t io n o f e x c h a n g e
10

c o n tr o l a n d – s o i t g i v e s u s t h o s e b r o a d p o w e r s t h a t w e c a n b e a b l e t o
u s e t h o s e p o w e r s t o t r y a n d m a k e s u r e th a t p e o p le c o m p ly w i t h a c t u a ll y
t h e e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l r e g u l a ti o n s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d fr o m , y o u k n o w, p a g e s ix i f y o u

m a y g o t h e r e fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 3 y o u a d d r e s s a q u e s t io n o f t h e
authorised dealers.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .
W h o m a y e x e c u te f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e , I

m e a n y o u d i d to u c h o n i t b u t p l e a s e c a n y o u e la b o r a te o n t h a t a s p e c t .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
20

Ye s C h a ir, s o a s I s a i d th a t – s o

t h e s e r e g u la t io n s h a v e a c a s c a d i n g p r o c e s s , M i n is t e r, R e s e r v e B a n k
b u t th e R e s e r v e B a n k it ’s o n ly o n e c e n tr a l b a n k i n t h e c o u n t r y y o u n e e d
f o o t p r i n t i n t e r m s o f p e o p l e th a t w i ll m a k e b u s i n e s s t o t ic k a n d m o v e s o
t h e s e a r e t h e b a n k s a n d t h e n y o u g iv e t h e m a l ic e n s e t o tr a d e in F o r e x
b u t th e n b e c a u s e it ’s s u c h a c o n v o l u t e d p r o c e s s w h ic h in v o lv e s
i m p l e m e n ta t io n , a d m i n is tr a t io n a n d e n f o r c e m e n t , s o y o u n e e d t o h a v e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a d m i n is tr a t iv e r u l e s a n d r e s tr ic ti o n s th a t a p p ly t o t h e b a n k s a n d li m i ts
b e c a u s e a s I a ll u d e d t o t h e r e a r e li m i ts , w e h a v e a c tu a l ly g o t r i d o f a
lo t o f li m i t s in th e ( i n d is t in c t ) I m a d e a n e x a m p le o f i t t w o h u n d r e d
t h o u s a n d a n d t e n m il li o n t h a t h a s n o w b e e n e x p a n d e d s o m u c h b u t
these imbedded in those, what is called, currency and
manual.

exchanges

S o e a c h b a n k a s s o o n a s i t g e t s a lic e n c e t o t r a d e in F o r e x

fir s t th i n g w e n e e d t o s a t is fy t o t h e R e s e r v e B a n k , c a n y o u b e a b l e t o
report.

Yo u n e e d t o s e t u p a s y s t e m w e w a n t t o s e e s e tt l e m e n t o f

tr a n s a c ti o n s a s t h e y t a k e c r o s s b o r d e r b e t w e e n r e s i d e n t s a n d n o n 10

r e s id e n ts b e c a u s e w e n e e d t h a t in f o r m a t i o n a n d t h e n fr o m t h e r e y o u
s h o u l d f o l lo w t h e m a n u a l in te r ms o f a c tu a l ly tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t y o u h a v e
b e e n g iv e n t h e a u th o r i ty t o b e a b l e t o a c t u a ll y – b e a b l e t o tr a n s a c t o n
b e h a l f o f y o u r c u s t o m e r s b e c a u s e th e y d o n ’ t d o i t f o r u s th e y d o it f o r
t h e ir c u s t o m e r s b e c a u s e a s I s a id in t h e R e s e r v e B a n k , y o u k n o w,
s e r v e s t h e e n ti r e c o u n tr y b u t t h e f o o tp r i n t s i ts w i t h th e s e b a n k s t h a t a r e
a c t u a ll y h a v in g c li e n t s w h a te v e r w h o w a n t to tr a v e l w h o w a n t t o i m p o r t
who want to export.

If y o u i m p o r t /e x p o r t t h e r e ’s a f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y

in v o lv e d a n d t h a t i s w h e r e a c t u a l ly c o n tr o l h i ts y o u a s a r e s id e n t a n d
w h e n I m e a n a r e s i d e n t , i n d iv id u a l c o m p a n y o r a Tr u s t w h a t e v e r.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M a y b e f o r c o m p l e te n e s s y o u k e e p o n

r e fe r r i n g t o t h e m a n u a l , C h a i r I’ m r e f e r r i n g t h e w i t n e s s n o w to S E M 5 t o
be found on page 244, are you there Mr Mazibuko?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I’m there Chairperson.
C a n y o u p l e a s e i d e n t i fy t h a t d o c u m e n t

f o r t h e C h a ir.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

J a , s o C h a ir t h i s d o c u m e n t o n t o p is

S e c t io n ( B ) 1 o f t h e C u r r e n c y a n d E x c h a n g e s A c t , p a y m e n t f o r i m p o r ts
a n d s o t h e u n d e r A ( i) , a u th o r is e d d e a le r s , i f I m a y q u o t e i t g i v e s t h e
g u i d e li n e s t h e r e in t e r m s o f h o w t h e y s h o u ld d e a l w i t h i m p o r t p a y m e n ts ,
r e q u ir e d d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t is r e q u ir e d , c o m m e r c i a l i n v o ic e s , U C P, y o u
k n o w, t h e s e a r e i n t e r n a ti o n a l s t a n d a r d d o c u m e n t a ti o n U C P 6 0 0 , fl ig h t
f o r w a r d e r c e r ti fi c a t e , o r fr e i g h t fo r w a r d e r s c e r ti f ic a t e o f tr a n s p o r t ,
c o n s i g n e e s , c o p y o f t h e p r e s c r ib e d S A R S c u s t o m d e c la r a t io n .

As I

m e n ti o n e d w i t h S A R S a l i t tl e b i t e a r l ie r, n o w, w e a s e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l
10

w e a r e n o t a t t h e p o r t o f e n t r y t o c o n tr o l t h e m o v e m e n t o f g o o d s i n a n d
o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y, h o w e v e r, w e w o r k w i t h S A R S .

S o w e w o r k w i th

SARS – you work with SARS and for you to clear the goods there is
w h a t i s c a ll e d c u s t o m e r c l e a r a n c e d e c l a r a ti o n w h e r e g o o d s n e e d t o b e
c le a r e d b u t f o r t h i s c a s e , fo r i m p o r ts t h e r e n e e d s t o b e c l e a r e d a f t e r
y o u h a v e th e p a y m e n t . S o th e y w il l w o r k t o g e t h e r a t th e a ir p o r t a s w e l l
t h e y ’l l c a tc h y o u b u t w e g e t t h e m o n e y t h a t a c t u a ll y i s c o n f is c a t e d .
T h e y c a n a ls o b e a b l e t o t a k e t h e m o n e y i f th e y ’v e g o t th e ir –
le g i s l a ti o n a ll o w s t h e m t o d o th a t a s w e l l .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

A n d w h a t a r e th e o th e r a s p e c ts o f t h i s

d o c u m e n t w h i c h y o u m i g h t w i s h t o h i g h l i g h t a n d p e r ti n e n t t o t h e is s u e s
t h a t y o u ( i n d is t in c t ) s h o r t ly ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

S o a s I a ll u d e d to C h a i r p e r s o n is

t h a t – s o – a n d i t g o e s t o , b e c a u s e it ’s a m a n u a l a n d a c t u a ll y
p r e s c r i b e s th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n l ik e t h e c u s t o m e r s , S A R S c l e a r a n c e
d e c l a r a ti o n t h a t y o u n e e d t o d e c l a r e . S o i n t h i s c a s e w h e n y o u d e c l a r e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e g o o d s th e r e m u s t b e a m a t c h i n t e r m s o f t h e f o r e ig n c u r r e n c y th a t
y o u h a v e a c q u ir e d to p a y f o r t h o s e i m p o r t s a n d t h e g o o d s c o m i n g i n t o
t h e c o u n tr y, t h e r e m u s t b e a m a t c h . S o i f y o u ’r e b u y i n g t h e s e b o tt l e s
a b o u t t e n o f t h e m a n d th e y c o s t a h u n d r e d r a n d a n d y o u ’v e p a id a
h u n d r e d r a n d o u t o f th e c o u n tr y y o u c a n n o t th e n r e c e i v e d t h e m o n e y f o r
o n e b o t tl e w h e n y o u h a v e s o l d t e n .

S o m a k e s u r e t h e r e ’s a m a tc h

b e c a u s e i t ’s f o r e ig n c u r r e n c y o f t h e c o u n t r y t h a t w e n e e d t o c o n s e r v e
but also

t h e r e n e e d s to b e a n o r d e r l in e s s o f t h e m a r k e t b e c a u s e , I

m u s t j u s t h i g h li g h t to s a y y o u c a n s e e I ju s t – n e x t to o u r b o r d e r s w h e n
10

t h e r e ’s n o f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y, I ’ m s u r e i ts s o m e t h i n g w e r e a d a b o u t e v e r y
d a y, y o u c a n n o t i m p o r t – y o u k n o w S o u th A f r i c a n c o m p a n i e s h a v e
s u ff e r e d w e h a v e s a i d s u b s i d ia r i e s o ffs h o r e – n o t o ffs h o r e b u t a l o n g
s o m e c o u n tr ie s in A fr ic a w h e r e th e y w a n t e d t o

a c tu a l ly d iv e r s i fy a n d

e x p a n d , t o s e n d g o o d s t h e r e th e y m u s t b e a b le to – b e c a u s e i t’s a n
e x p o r t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t i n t e r m s o f th e r e g u l a ti o n s w h e n y o u e x p o r t w e
m u s t g e t f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y b a c k i n S o u th A fr i c a fo r t h e g o o d s t h a t h a v e
b e e n p r o d u c e d i n t h is c o u n tr y. S o t h o s e a r e t h e – a s I s a i d C h a ir m a n ,
t h is r e g i m e is s o b r o a d I c a n fo c u s o n th is o n ly u n t il M o n d a y a f t e r n o o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

S u n d a y, M r M a z ib u k o .

No we won’t be here on Saturday and

Now if I may refer you back to page seven of

y o u r w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 4 y o u b e g i n to d e a l w i t h t h e
c o m p li a n c e a n d e n fo r c e m e n t d i v is i o n w h i c h I t a k e t h a t i t ’s o n e o f t h e
d iv is io n s t h a t i t’s q u i t e c r it ic a l w i t h i n S A A P, p l e a s e t e l l u s a b o u t i t .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o th is i s t h e d iv i s i o n t h a t e n fo r c e s

c o m p li a n c e b e c a u s e t h o s e r u le s a n d r e g u l a ti o n s y o u n e e d to c o m p ly

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w i t h , s o i f y o u d o n ’ t y o u k n o w, th is d iv is io n , y o u k n o w i t d o e s
in v e s t i g a t io n s b u t t h e fi r s t p o in t o f c o n ta c t c o u l d b e t h e b a n k r e p o r t in g
s u s p i c i o u s tr a n s a c t i o n s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
that

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s u s p ic io u s

–

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exchange

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tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t a r e s u s p ic i o u s a n d t h e n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n , t h e r e w i ll
b e , a c t u a l ly a s o r t – a n in i ti a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o s a y i f t h e y r e p o r t a
c e r t a i n tr a n s a c ti o n w h o w a s in v o lv e d w h o a r e t h e p a r t ie s to t h is
10

tr a n s a c ti o n a n d t h e n w e lo o k , w a s th e a u t h o r i ty g r a n te d , w h o g r a n te d
t h e a u t h o r it y t o a l l p a r t ie s a n d a ll t h a t a n d if i t’s fo u n d t h a t t h e r e ’s
n o t h i n g u n t o w a r d th e m a t te r w il l b e a ll o w e d to r e s t b u t if t h e r e ’s
s u s p i c i o n t h a t t h e r e ’s s o m e c o n tr a v e n ti o n , a n e w in v e s t i g a t io n f il e w i ll
b e o p e n e d a n d in i ti a te d fr o m t h a t ti m e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d t h e n th e p r o c e s s w i ll u n f o ld

fr o m th a t w h e r e th e r e w il l b e a c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n t h e c o m p li a n c e a n d
e n f o r c e m e n t a n d t h e c l i e n t a n d d u r i n g t h a t li a i s o n t h e r e w i ll b e s o m e
r e q u ir e d d o c u m e n t a ti o n t o s a y w e s e e t h is h a s h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e –
20

a n d t h e n t h e y w il l s a y t o y o u , y o u k n o w p r o v id e u s w i t h – th a t ’s w h y I
s a i d , i n t e r m s o f th e r e g u la t io n s w e c a n r e q u e s t to a n y p e r s o n ,
r e m e m b e r t h e R e s e r v e B a n k w e d o o u r w o r k w i t h o u t f e a r, f a v o u r o r
p r e j u d ic e . S o w e c a n a s k a n y p e r s o n fo r a n y i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t w e n e e d
fr o m y o u , y o u h a v e t o p r o v i d e t h a t .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , w o u l d I b e a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t fr o m

ti m e t o t i m e , I m e a n t h e D e p a r t m e n t th a t y o u h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t I t h in k
Fi n a n c i a l S e r v ic e s

D e p a r t m e n t w o u ld

from

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to

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receive

in f o r m a ti o n p e r t a in in g t o v a r io u s t r a n s g r e s s io n s o f t h e e x c h a n g e
c o n tr o l .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C :

Ye s .
H o w d o e s i t d e a l w i th th a t i n fo r m a t i o n ,

w h a t h a p p e n s o n c e i t h a s r e c e iv e d t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
10

S o t h a t in f o r m a t io n c o m e s fr o m t i p -

o ffs s o w e c a n h a v e s o m e b o d y f ig h ti n g w it h h is w i fe i n te r ms o f a s s e ts
t h a t h a v e b e e n h i d d e n in a n o t h e r ju r is d ic ti o n , a t ip - o ff o r i t ’s s o m e t h i n g
t h a t w e t a k e fr o m th e h e a d li n e s .
newspapers

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t h e y ’v e

W h e n I s i t i n m y o ffi c e j u s t li k e
becom e

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n e w s p a p e r s a n d tr a n s a c t i o n s o f b i g c o r p o r a t e s , i f I d o n ’ t k n o w a b o u t
t h o s e tr a n s a c ti o n , I’ ll c a ll t h e a c c o u n ti n g m a n a g e r f o r t h a t c o m p a n y t o
s a y, I ’v e n e v e r h e a r d a b o u t t h i s , h o w c o m e t h e s e g u y s a r e h e r e , t h e y ’r e
in A u s tr a li a o r w h a ts o e v e r.

S o w e h a v e fo u n d a c t u a l ly t h r o u g h

n e w s p a p e r s – o r if w e f o u n d t h a t a p e r s o n t h a t , y o u k n o w h a s b o u g h t a
v il la in S o u t h e r n Fr a n c e e n j o y i n g h i m s e l f , w e a s k o u r s e l f , o k a y d i d h e
20

h a v e t h e m o n e y t o d o t h a t . N o w th i n g s h a v e c h a n g e d b e c a u s e w it h in a
1 0 m i ll io n n o w t h a t u s e d t o h a p p e n in ( i n d i s t in c t ) b u t i f w e f in d th a t th e
c o s t I a b o v e w h a t y o u c a n r e m i t, y o u k n o w o n a y e a r ly b a s i s th e
in v e s t i g a t io n w i ll s t a r t .

S o o t h e r s a r e c o m in g fr o m t h e b a n k s

t h e m s e l v e s b u t o t h e r s a r e in i ti a te d b y o u r s e lv e s , y o u k n o w.

Page 133 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s , n o w o n c e th a t – a n d I t a k e i t t h a t ,

y o u k n o w, th e r e w o u ld b e o ffic i a ls t h a t a r e a s s ig n e d t o d e a l w i th t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r in f o r m a ti o n .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .
W h a t d o t h e y d o in t h o s e i n s t a n c e s , i f

t h e y ’v e r e a ll y f o u n d t h a t th e r e m i g h t b e s u s p i c i o u s tr a n s a c t i o n s ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

W h e n t h e r e ’s a s u s p ic i o u s – a s I

s a i d C h a ir p e r s o n i n v e s ti g a ti o n f il e is o p e n e d a n d t h e n th e y w i ll g o
t h r o u g h t h e w h o l e in tr ic a c ie s o f t h e t r a n s a c t io n t h e p a r ti e s in v o lv e d a n d
10

t h e in t e n t i o n b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l a p p lic a ti o n s y o u
s e e t h e r e , w h a t is th e i n te n ti o n o f y o u g o i n g a b r o a d , w h a t a r e y o u
g o i n g t o d o t h e r e a n d w e f o u n d a lo t o f t h in g s s o m e t i m e s th a t w e
d e c l in e b e c a u s e , m a y b e , y o u k n o w, y o u a r e d o in g s o m e t h in g t h a t is n o t
a l lo w e d in t e r m s o f th e c u r r e n t r e g u la t io n s . S o if w e f o u n d th a t , i n d e e d
a c o n tr a v e n t io n h a s t a k e n p l a c e y o u w il l b e c a ll e d in f o r d o c u m e n t a ti o n
w h a ts o e v e r a n d a t s o m e s t a g e th e y w i ll d o t h e a u d i a lt e r a m p a r te m
p r i n c i p l e , le t ’s h e a r t h e ir s id e to g i v e y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty b e c a u s e a t
t h a t m o m e n t w h e n w e g o fo r t h a t , w e s a y, g iv e u s a fu ll , fr a n k a n d
v e r i fi a b l e d is c l o s u r e , y o u ’r e n o t g o i n g t o l ie t o u s b e c a u s e o r

20

r e g u la t io n s a r e s o p o w e r fu l t h a t w h e n w e a p p ly t h e m , w e c a n b e s o
s tr i n g e n t t h a t w e c a n ta k e 1 0 0 % o f t h e c o n tr a v e n e d a m o u n t a n d a l l
t h a t . S o y o u a r e a b l e – i f y o u c o m e b a c k to u s a n d y o u t a lk t o u s a n d
y o u s a y, y e s , t h is is w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d a l l th a t a n d w e c a n – y o u s ta r t
t o c o o p e r a t e a n d a ll th a t , a n d t h e n w e s t a r t t a l k i n g t o s a y, o k a y w h a t
h a s h a p p e n e d a n d a ll th a t , b u t in s o m e i n s t a n c e s , y o u k n o w, w h e n y o u

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
s e n d , y o u k n o w t h a t le t t e r fo r s o m e b o d y t o h e a r th e i r s i d e a n d t o m a k e
a f u l l , fr a n k a n d v e r i fi a b l e d i s c l o s u r e , w e h a v e h a d a n u m b e r o f
in s t a n c e s w h e r e p e o p l e d o n o t r e s p o n d . S o t h e y w il l l e a v e a 5 m i ll io n
r a n d a n d ju s t t a k e a r u n a n d j u s t l e a v e i t b e c a u s e I th i n k t h e r e ’s m o r e
t o i t w h a t m e e ts , y o u k n o w, t o a c t u a ll y w h a t m e e ts t h e e y e in te r ms o f
u n d e r l y i n g tr a n s a c t io n to t h a t , s o th a t ’s w h a t h a p p e n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I n th a t c a s e y o u le t t h e m r u n a n d k e e p th e m o n e y.

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

C h a ir p e r s o n r e m e m b e r w e h a v e

f o ll o w e d n o w t h e A u d i a l t e r a m p a r t e m p r in c i p l e t o a c t u a l ly g iv e a n
10

o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d , b u t t h e y ’v e d e c i d e d f o r t h e ms e lv e s t h e y ’r e n o t
going to say anything.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

B u t w e s t il l h a v e t o m a k e s u r e i n

t e r m s o f ju s tic e t h a t w e m a k e s u r e t h a t – t h e n w e p r o c e e d to t h e n e x t
le v e l

to

s a y,

have

th e y

a c tu a lly

c o n tr a v e n e d ,

what

have

they

c o n tr a v e n e d a n d t h e n w e a c t u a ll y t h e n s t a r t th e p r o c e s s o f a t ta c h m e n t ,
b e c a u s e i n t e r m s o f t h e r e g u l a ti o n s – R e g u l a ti o n 2 2 ( A ) a n d 2 2 ( C ) a n
o ffic i a l i n t h e c o m p l i a n c e a n d e n f o r c e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t c a n b l o c k a n
a c c o u n t . S o th i n g s , w h e n a n a c c o u n t is r e p o r t e d o r t h e b a n k s u s p e c t s
20

t h a t E li ja h M a z ib u k o ’s a c c o u n t m ig h t b e i n v o l v e d i n n e f a r i o u s a c tiv i ti e s ,
o n t h a t s u s p i c i o n o n c o n tr a v e n t i o n s w e c a n b l o c k t h a t a c c o u n t i f w e
f o u n d t h a t m a y b e t h e r e ’s a lo t o f m o n ie s c o m i n g in l e a v i n g t h e c o u n tr y
a n d b e c a u s e w e w a n t t o s t o p y o u a n d s a y, c o m e l e t’s ta lk w h a t is
h a p p e n in g w i th y o u r – t h e th i n g s w i ll s ta r t t h e r e b e f o r e w e e v e n g o to
t h e a t t a c h m e n t a n d a l l t h a t a n d t h e n w e ’l l r e q u e s t d o c u m e n t a t i o n , a r e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
y o u p a y i n g f o r i m p o r ts , w h a t a r e y o u i m p o r ti n g t h a t a c t u a l ly tu r n s o u t
s o q u i c k l y a n d i f h e s a y s ( in d i s ti n c t) t h e r e ’s n o p r o b le m b u t i f w e fo u n d
t h a t th e r e ’s

a b lo c k a g e a n d th e n h e c a n n o t s a ti s fy w h a t a c t u a l ly t h e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n to p r o v e t h a t t h e tr a n s a c t i o n s th a t y o u a r e d e a l in g w it h
a r e le g it i m a t e a n d a ll t h a t , t h e a c t io n s g e t e s c a l a t e d n o w t o t h e p o i n t
w h e r e w e ’ ll is s u e – w e ’l l r e q u e s t t h a t f u l l, f r a n k a n d v e r i f ia b le
d is c l o s u r e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e to p r o v e to u s a n d w e g iv e y o u a c e r ta i n
ti m e p e r io d .

I f y o u d o n ’t c o m e b a c k t o u s b y t h i s ti m e

- remember

t h e r e ’s a n a t t a c h m e n t t h a t in y o u r a c c o u n t t h e m o n e y th a t is th e r e i s
10

a lr e a d y

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in c o n v e n i e n c e to y o u t h a t i f y o u a c t u a l ly, y o u h a v e n ’ t d o n e a n y t h i n g
w r o n g y o u m u s t b e q u i c k a n d s a y t h i s a c t u a ll y is w h a t is h a p p e n i n g s o
t h a t , th a t a c c o u n t c a n b e – b u t i n m o s t c a s e s w h e n w e d o t h a t , i n m o s t
c a s e s t h e r e ’s s o m e s o r t o f n e f a r io u s a c ti v it ie s t h a t a c t u a l ly h a v e ta k e n
p l a c e a n d m o s t o f th e s e m a t t e r s g e t e s c a la t e d to a t t a c h m e n t a n d l e a d
t o t h e f o r fe i tu r e a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y. T h e n m o n i e s g e ts f o r fe i te d to
t h e S t a te , s o m e p e o p l e t h i n k b e c a u s e t h is d e p a r t m e n t is w i th th e
R e s e r v e B a n k , t h e R e s e r v e B a n k a c tu a l ly t a k e – t h is m o n e y – t h e
m o n i e s t h a t g e t f o r fe i te d a n d t h e y g o i n to t h e N a ti o n a l r e v e n u e a c c o u n t
20

f o r t h e S t a t e t o u s e th is m o n i e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w l e t’s m o v e o n , l e t ’s g o to p a g e 1 0

o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t w h e r e y o u ’r e n o w in tr o d u c i n g a n e w to p ic , t h e
e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l r e q u ir e m e n ts r e l e v a n t to p a y m e n t f o r i m p o r ts , a r e y o u
there?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s I ’ m t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 136 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w i f y o u c a n p l e a s e s u m m a r is e t h e

i m p o r t a n t f e a tu r e s a n d r e le v a n t i n fo r m a ti o n u n d e r t h e t o p ic .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o t h e i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e s is t h a t

i m p o r t s b y n a tu r e , w h e n y o u s a y i m p o r ts … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e 1 0 C h a ir.

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I j u s t w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e th e C h a i r is

with us, you may proceed.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :
10

O k a y, I w a s s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t

i m p o r t s – s o y o u a r e i m p o r ti n g fr o m o n e j u r i s d ic ti o n to a n o t h e r, y o u ’r e
i m p o r t i n g t o S o u t h A fr ic a , s o i n m o s t c a s e s it c o m e s fr o m t h e o ld
b a r t e r in g p r o c e s s , w h a t I d o n ’t h a v e , I ’ll g i v e it t o y o u , g iv e m e
something that I need.

S o w h e n y o u i m p o r t – s o t h e r e ’s a f o r e i g n

c u r r e n c y n e e d e d , y o u ’r e i m p o r t in g f r o m t h e U S , y o u n e e d U S D o ll a r s t o
p a y f o r i m p o r ts . W h e n y o u a r e a c tu a lly to E u r o p e m a y b e t o o n e o f t h e
c o u n tr i e s , t h e E u r o s , w h a t s o e v e r a n d th e n th e r e a r e r u l e s th a t a c tu a l ly
g o v e r n th e i m p o r ts , a s I a l lu d e d to th e f a c t t h a t in t e r m s o f t r a d e
tr a n s a c ti o n w e d o n ’ t w o r k a l o n e a s t h e R e s e r v e B a n k w e w o r k w i t h
SARS.
20

N o w S A R S , i n t e r m s o f t h e c u s t o m d iv is io n t h e y w a n t y o u t o

r a i s e – i f y o u ’r e a n e x p o r t e r y o u n e e d t o r e g is t e r w i t h t h e m , if y o u ’r e a n
i m p o r t e r y o u n e e d t o r e g is te r w i th t h e c u s t o m d iv is io n s o t h a t y o u r
g o o d s c a n b e c le a r e d i f y o u a r e e x p o r ti n g y o u r g o o d s c a n b e c l e a r e d
o ffs h o r e w h e r e y o u a r e s e l li n g t h e m b u t w h e n y o u a c t u a ll y – S A R S
a l lo w y o u t o c le a r t h e g o o d s f o r e x p o r t w e a s th e R e s e r v e B a n k
m o n i t o r s n o w t o s a y, o k a y y o u h a v e c le a r e d th e g o o d s w e w a n t, w i t h i n

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a c e r t a i n ti m e , t o b r in g b a c k t h e m o n e y f o r th e g o o d s s o l d .

So this

s e c t io n d e a ls w i th t h a t, t h a t – s o w h e n y o u s e ll t h e r e ’s a d o c u m e n t a ti o n
t h a t I a ll u d e d to in B 1 w h e n I w a s q u o t in g i n t e r m s o f p a y m e n t f o r
imports

in

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of

fr e i g h t f o r w a r d e r s ,

p a y m e n ts ,

payments

for

in s u r a n c e , p a y m e n t s u n d e r t h e U C P 6 0 0 , s t a n d a r d i s e d d o c u m e n t s a n d
a l l th a t .

S o t h a t is p a y, t h e r e q u ir e m e n t b e c a u s e p e o p le s o m e ti m e s

t h i n k th a t , f o r in s t a n c e i t ’s S o u th A fr ic a n ( in d is ti n c t) y o u g o a n y w h e r e
in th e w o r ld t h e r e ’s a b i ll o f l a d i n g t h a t y o u n e e d to p a y e v e n w h e n
t h e r e ’s n o – s o w h e n d o c u m e n ts a r e c r o s s in g t h e c o u n tr i e s t h e r e ’s
10

s o m e d o c u m e n t a r y e v i d e n c e t h a t n e e d s t o b e s a t is fi e d , t h a t n e e d s to
b e s ta m p e d t o s h o w t h a t t h e v a l u e o f g o o d s , i t ’s o r i g in , w h a t ty p e o f
g o o d s , w h e r e a r e th e y c o m i n g fr o m .

S o t h o s e a r e th e t h in g s th a t

a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d w it h in – s o w i t h S o u th A fr ic a i t ’s b e c a u s e w e ’v e g o t
e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l s o w e i n s is t o n t h e s e t h i n g s a n d i f y o u b r e a k th o s e
r u l e s a n d t h e n th e r e ’s s o m e s a n c ti o n s th a t w i ll c o m e to y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

D e fi n i t e ly a n d I s a w t h a t i n y o u r

s t a te m e n t , I m e a n , y o u r e fe r r e d t o t h e m a n u a l a n d i n t h a t m a n u a l
t h e r e ’s w h a t i s c a l le d th e M R N , i f y o u c a n p le a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir a s t o
w h a t i s t h a t a n d w h a t is i ts s i g n i fic a n c e .
20

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o th e M R N n u m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n i s

a n u m b e r – i t’s a u n iq u e n u m b e r is s u e d b y c u s t o m d iv is i o n s o f S A R S
w h e n y o u a c t u a ll y g o in g t o p a y f o r i m p o r ts s o i t ’s a M R N n u m b e r t h a t i t
g iv e s t h e v a li d a t io n t o t h e i m p o r t a t i o n o f g o o d s a n d I m u s t s a y th a t w i t h
t h e b a n k i n g s y s te m , a n d I’ m n o w – I ’ m m o v i n g a w a y fr o m S A R S w e ’v e
g o t a s y s t e m t h a t i s c a ll e d a n i m p o r t v e r if ic a t io n s y s t e m w h e r e w e c a n

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a ls o – s o th e M R N n u m b e r is g e n e r a te d b y S A R S , y o u k n o w, c o n fi r m in g
t h e m o v e m e n t o f g o o d s a n d c le a r a n c e t h e r e o f t h r o u g h t h e S A P o r ts a n d
w e u s e t h a t n u m b e r, i f y o u a r e a n i m p o r t e r t o a c t u a l ly g o n o w fo r t h e
g o o d s th a t a r e c l e a r e d , to g o a n d p a y fo r t h o s e g o o d s , a n d t h e n w i th i n
I V S w e a r e a b l e e v e n t o s e e i f t h e r e ’s a n e n q u ir y, m a y b e i n t e r m s o f a
tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t i s s u s p ic i o u s w e ’ v e g o t a s y s te m t h a t is l in k e d t o S A R S
w h e r e w e c a n p u t t h e M R N n u m b e r a n d s e e if it is v a l id a t e d b y S A R S
a n d a l l th a t a n d w h e n y o u d o t h a t y o u fi n d t h a t it is v a li d s o t h a t is th e
w a y i t i s C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d i f I m a y r e fe r y o u p a g e 1 3 o f

y o u r s t a t e m e n t w i t h p a r ti c u la r r e f e r e n c e to p a r a g r a p h 3 1 w h e r e y o u
b e g in t o o u t li n e th e c u s t o m s c le a r a n c e p r o c e s s , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e ta lk
to that, to those paragraphs.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o I’ v e a ll u d e d , C h a ir p e r s o n ,

3 1 . 1 2 t h a t r e g i s t r a t io n p r o c e s s w i t h S A R S b y a c le a r i n g a g e n t b e c a u s e
n o r m a l ly t h e i s s u e o f tr a d e f o r a l o c a l p e r s o n t h a t w o r k s , t h e r e ’s a
m i d d l e m a n w h ic h is a c le a r i n g a g e n t t h a t a c t u a ll y h e l p y o u to n a v i g a t e
t h e in t e r n a t io n a l w o r l d i n t e r m s o f w h a t is r e q u i r e d b e t w e e n c o u n t e r
p a r t i e s . S o t h o s e p e o p le n e e d s t o a c t u a ll y r e g is t e r w i t h S A R S a n d t h e n
20

every importer or the agent as I said, you know before the goods are
i m p o r t e d in t o t h e R e p u b lic t h e y n e e d t o la u n c h w h a t is a c u s to m e r
c le a r a n c e d e c l a r a ti o n .

S o t h e c le a r a n c e , t h e w o r d , c l e a r a n c e is t h a t,

y o u k n o w, a s I s a id b e fo r e t h e g o o d s – s o y o u c l e a r th e g o o d s , th e
g o o d s h a v e b e e n c l e a r e d th r o u g h c u s t o m s a n d th e n y o u c a n p a y fo r t h e
g o o d s in t h a t – t h a t ’s w h y i t c o s ts c u s t o m e r c le a r a n c e d e c l a r a t i o n a n d

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w i t h i n t h e c u s t o m e r c le a r a n c e d e c l a r a ti o n , t h e r e ’s a l i n k a s w e ll th a t
unique MRN they call it a Movement Reference Number as the goods
m o v e . T h a t ’s w h y s o m e o f t h e i m p o r t a d v a n c e d p a y m e n ts – s o w h e n
y o u ’v e g o t a n a d v a n c e p a y m e n t t o s t a r t w i t h a n i n v o i c e b e c a u s e
s o m e t i m e s th e g o o d s a r e s t il l g o in g to b e m a n u f a c t u r e d a n d th e n th e
s u p p li e r a b r o a d w il l s a y I n e e d a d o w n - p a y m e n t s o – b u t t h e r e w i ll b e a
M R N t h a t w il l b e f o ll o w e d u n ti l s o m e d a y w e w il l a s k y o u t o s a y w h e n
y o u p a id t h a t d o w n - p a y m e n t to s a y y o u a r e i m p o r t in g a c e r ta i n m a c h i n e
w h e r e is th a t m a c h i n e w h e n y o u p u t i t .
10

S o it ’s a M R N n u m b e r th a t

tr a c k s a n d tr a c e , y o u k n o w, t h e i m p o r ts .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s a n d h o w d o e s o n e , y o u k n o w v e r i fy

t h e v a li d i ty o f t h a t M R N n u m b e r ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o th e M R N n u m b e r c a n b e v e r i fi e d

o n ly b y S A R S i t c a n a ls o b e v e r if i e d b y o u r s e lv e s a n d th e b a n k s
b e c a u s e w e ’v e g o t a s y s t e m c a ll e d t h e i m p o r t v e r i f ic a t i o n s y s te m t h a t
li n k s w i t h S A R S b e c a u s e i t ’s g o t c e r t a in m a n d a t o r y fi e l d s t h a t i t w o r k s
w i t h s o , y o u k n o w, y o u c a n tr y a n d a c t u a l l y ji p p o t h e M R N n u m b e r a n d
f a ls i fy i t b u t w h e n S A R S p u t i t i n to t h e ir s y s t e m , I t h i n k th e r e w il l b e a
r e d f la g to s a y, t h is is n o t a v a li d M R N n u m b e r t h a t’s b e e n i s s u e d b y
20

the customs department.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w t h a t y o u ’v e e d u c a te d u s M r

M a z i b u k o a n d a g a i n s t t h a t b a c k g r o u n d c o u l d w e n o w m o v e o n to
d e a li n g w it h th e f a c ts th a t a r e p e r ti n e n t t o t h e S A P S i n v e s t ig a t io n i n
r e l a ti o n t o H o m i x a n d t h e ir r e g u l a r i t ie s – t h o s e ir r e g u l a r e x c h a n g e
tr a n s a c ti o n s . Yo u b e g in t o d o t h a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 5 o n p a g e 1 6 . T h is

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
is w h e r e w e m i g h t s p e n d m u c h m o r e – m u c h m o r e ti m e o n y o u r
e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e a t l e a s t t h e b a c k g r o u n d , n o w w e k n o w w h a t a r e th e
r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d w h a t d o e s o n e l o o k a t w h e n y o u ’r e l o o k i n g a t
e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l a n d a g a i n s t t h a t y o u k n o w, ( in d is ti n c t) i m p o r t a n t
b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e fu n d a m e n t a l s th a t o n e h a s t o g o t h r o u g h i n
e n s u r i n g t h a t y o u d o n ’ t tr a n s g r e s s t h o u g h e x c h a n g e c o n t r o ls .

Please

t h e n te ll u s a b o u t t h e s p e c i fi c s a n d d e a l w i t h H o m ix .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o c o m in g to t h is I j u s t n e e d t o

c la r i fy to t h e C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t a s I a l lu d e d t o t h a t I’ m t h e h e a d o f th e
10

d e p a r t m e n t t h e r e a r e r e p o r ti n g li n e s , t h e r e is a d iv is i o n c a l le d ,
c o m p li a n c e a n d e n fo r c e m e n t a n d i t ’s g o t in v e s t i g a t o r s .

So I was not

in v o lv e d in th is , i t c o m e s to m e o n c e th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a s b e e n
c o n c l u d e d a n d f u n d s a r e a b o u t t o b e fo r f e i t e d w h e r e I w il l g o t h r o u g h
t h e m o ti v a t io n s a s to w h y f u n d s a r e s u p p o s e d to b e f o r fe i te d .

Th e y

c h e c k t h e m e r it s o f t h e c a s e a s h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f w h i c h t h e
p r e r o g a tiv e a l s o f o r s i g n in g o f h e f o r fe i tu r e d o e s n o t r e s i d e w it h m e , it
r e s id e s w i t h th e G o v e r n o r s a n d th e d e p u t y G o v e r n o r s .

So – and that

w i ll b e p a s s e d a ls o t h e y ’ ll g o t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t ,
y o u k n o w t h e s u s p ic i o u s tr a n s a c ti o n s t h e r e ’s a – o n t h e b a la n c e o f
20

p r o b a b i li ti e s b e c a u s e w i t h u s w e w o r k o n t h e b a l a n c e o f p r o b a b i li t ie s t o
s a y o n e m i g h t h a v e a c t u a l ly c o n tr a v e n e d e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l a n d t h e n t h e
f o r fe i tu r e w i ll b e s i g n e d .

N o w i n t h is c a s e h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e th e

c o u n s e l h a s a s k e d m e t o s ta r t , a s I’ v e a l lu d e d t o t h a t M e r c a n t il e is o n e
o f t h e a u th o r is e d d e a l e r s , a u t h o r is e d d e a l e r s … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t is n o w th e M e r c a n ti le B a n k ?

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s t h e M e r c a n ti l e B a n k o n p a g e 1 6

w h e r e H o m i x s e e m s to b e w o r k i n g t h r o u g h M e r c a n t il e f o r t h e ir i m p o r t
tr a n s a c ti o n s

but

y o u ’l l

see

that

–

th e r e ’s

what

we

call

some

in t e r m e d i a r ie s , w h a t w e c a l l, y o u k n o w, lik e t h e y ’v e m e n ti o n e d h e r e
t h a t th e r e ’s a ( i n d i s t i n c t) s o t h e s e a r e in t e r me d ia r i e s t h a t w o r k b e t w e e n
t h e b a n k – y o u k n o w i t ’s i f I li k e m a k e a n e x a m p l e w it h a n o r m a l th i n g ,
if y o u w a n t t o b u y a h o u s e s o th e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g t h a t is c a l le d B e tt e r
B o n d , s o t h e y w i ll tr a c e a b e t te r i n te r e s t f o r y o u in s t e a d o f y o u g o in g
d ir e c t t o t h e b a n k s o e v e n t h e s e tr e a s u r y o u t s o u r c i n g c o m p a n ie s t h a t ’s
10

h o w w e d o i t , w e t a l k to t h e m . S o t h e y w i ll s o u r c e c l ie n ts a n d t h e n s a y,
w e w il l g e t a b e t t e r r a te f o r y o u , fo r t h e s e i m p o r ts b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r
w h e n y o u b u y f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y y o u b u y i t in te r ms o f th e r a n d w h ic h
m i g h t b e v o l a ti l e to d a y it m i g h t b e – t h e e x c h a n g e r a te m i g h t b e s o –
t h e y tr y a n d n e g o ti a te in t e r m s o f f e e s w h a ts o e v e r a n d t h e y g e t – s o i n
t e r m s o f t h is c a s e o f H o m i x t h e y u s e d a m i d d l e m a n t h a t w a s c a ll e d
P e r i te r s w h ic h w a s a t r e a s u r y o u ts o u r c i n g c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h o is t h e y, i s i t M e r c a n til e B a n k , w h e n y o u s a y t h e y

u s e d , is i t M e r c a n ti le B a n k … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h e y i s H o m ix .

O h H o m ix o k a y.

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o r r y f o r th a t , n o w u n d e r 3 6 y o u ’l l

s e e th a t , a s I a l lu d e d t o t h e m a t c h i n g b e t w e e n e x p o r t s a n d t h e v a l u e o f
– I m e a n t h e i m p o r ts a n d t h e v a l u e o f m o n e y t h a t h a s l e f t t h e c o u n tr y,
t h a t 5 1 m il li o n in t e r m s o f – w a s a c tu a lly e x p o r te d b y H o m i x a n d – s o if
y o u g o f u r t h e r, t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s , th e r e w e r e a b o u t 1 6 tr a n s a c ti o n s

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h a t w e r e a c tu a lly d o n e b y M e r c a n ti le b e f o r e th e y c o u ld b e r e f e r r e d t o
u s , it c o u l d b e t h a t th e y n e v e r m a y b e s u s p e c t e d a n y t h i n g w r o n g w i t h
t h e m b u t t h e n t h i s tr a n s a c t i o n – s o t h e r e w a s 1 6 , s o th e y d id 1 3 a n d
t h e y d id tr a n s a c ti o n n u m b e r 1 4 , 1 5 , 1 6 I th in k w a s r e fe r r e d to u s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o w w h e n y o u s a y t h is tr a n s a c ti o n s

y o u ’r e r e fe r r i n g li t e r a l ly to t a k in g o u t th e m o n e y o u t s i d e S o u t h A f r i c a .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o th is – r e m e m b e r t h e i m p o r t

it ’s a s a l e tr a n s a c ti o n i f I m a y p u t it i n a s i m p l e te r m s a s a l e
tr a n s a c ti o n b e t w e e n tw o c o m p a n i e s b u t u n d e r li n e th e s a le tr a n s a c ti o n ,
10

t h e r e ’s m o n e y in v o lv e d h o w y o u g o in g t o p a y m e n o w e s p e c ia ll y b e in g
s o fa r a p a r t , h o w y o u g o i n g t o p a y m e .
d o c u m e n t a ti o n

that

I

spoke

about

So here because of the

that

th e r e

needs

to

be

d o c u m e n t a ti o n , S A R S c u s t o m e r d e c l a r a ti o n a n d c u s to m e r c l e a r a n c e
d e c l a r a ti o n f o r t h e g o o d s a n d t h e n t h a t S A R S c u s t o m e r d e c l a r a ti o n
m u s t b e a r w h a t is c a ll e d t h e M R N n u m b e r.

So here there was some

p r o b le m s w i t h s o m e M R N n u m b e r s s u s p ic io n o f – e s p e c i a lly t h e w a y,
s o m e t i m e s t h e t u r n a r o u n d i n t o t h e a c c o u n t w a s h a p p e n in g w a s y o u
k n o w i f m y m o n e y is m o v in g t o t h e s a m e s u p p l i e r b e c a u s e a s u p p li e r
y o u w o n ’ t p a y th e m w i t h i n t h e t h ir d d a y, f o u r t h d a y, n o r m a lly t h e y a r e
20

p a i d m o n th ly b u t i f I s t a r t t o a c t u a ll y p a y y o u v e r y q u i c k l y I’ m u p t o s a y
w h a t is t h a t r i g o r o u s a c tiv i ty in t h is a c c o u n t w h y i s th e m o n e y s p in n in g
v e r y q u ic k ly i t w a s t h e n th a t w e s t a r t e d t o in v e s ti g a t e a n d th e n t h e
t h r e e tr a n s a c t i o n s a s I s a id , th e r e w a s 1 3 p l u s th r e e w h ic h w a s 1 6 ,
t h e r e w e r e t h r e e th a t w e r e a c tu a lly r e f e r r e d t o u s t o l o o k a t b y
M e r c a n ti l e , th e y w e r e b l o c k e d a n d t h e n t h e m o n ie s – I th i n k t h e y

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a m o u n t e d t o a b o u t 4 .4 m i ll i o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s b u t b e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e . I t h i n k y o u
k n o w t h e d u r a ti o n t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t is q u i te c r u c i a l .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

And I mean if one has regard to your

paragraph 13
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a r e s a y in g th a t d u r in g th e p e r i o d o f
2 1 t o 2 8 M a y t h a t is a l m o s t 7 d a y s o n p a g e – o n p a r a g r a p h 6 .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w y o u s a y in g t h a t w i t h i n t h a t p e r i o d o f
7 d a y s t h e r e w a s a l m o s t 1 3 c r o s s b o r d e r f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e tr a n s a c ti o n s
o f [ in d is ti n c t ]
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s w it h a n a g g r e g a te o f v a l u e o f 5 1 . 8
m il li o n C h a i r p e r s o n fr o m 2 8 – fr o m 2 1 t o 2 8 M a y s o y o u c a n s e e y o u
k n o w i f I a m p a y i n g b e c a u s e w e k n o w in t h e s e ty p e o f tr a n s a c t i o n s t h e
t u r n a r o u n d is n o t li k e th a t .

So it could happen.

Yo u k n o w o n e m ig h t

n o t d is p u te i t b e t w e e n th e a r r a n g e m e n t b u t i t is a v e r y u n u s u a l
a r r a n g e m e n t.
20

S o – b e c a u s e w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e s e ty p e s o f

tr a n s a c ti o n s th e r e i s s o m e th i n g t h a t is c a ll e d tr a d e b a s e d m o n e y
la u n d e r in g .

A n d a tr a d e b a s e d m o n e y la u n d e r in g it is a p r o c e s s

w h e r e b y c r i m in a ls u s e l e g i t i m a te tr a d e to h i d e t h e ir c r i m in a l p r o c e e d s
fr o m u n s c r u p u lo u s s o u r c e s a n d w h a ts o e v e r.

S o th e tr a d e h a s t o l o o k

le g i t i m a te b e c a u s e w h e n s o m e t h i n g l o o k s l e g i t i m a te y o u k n o w y o u d o
n o t g e t s u s p ic i o u s y o u k n o w i t is a l e g i ti m a te tr a d e o r w e g o in g t o l o o k

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o n t h e s u r f a c e b u t i f y o u s ta r t t o d i g d e e p in t o t h e [ i n d is ti n c t ]
in f o r m a ti o n t h is is w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g h e r e b e c a u s e I th i n k f o r
M e r c h a n ti le w h e n th e s e a c c o u n ts w e r e c o m in g t h e y s t a r t e d t o r e a li s e
a n d s a y t h e r e is s o m e th i n g w r o n g h e r e b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e m h a d
p a s s e d t h r o u g h a lr e a d y th a t i s w h y t h e 5 1 . 8 m ill i o n p a s s e d th r o u g h b u t
w e w e r e a b l e t o b l o c k t h e s m a ll e r a m o u n t w h ic h is 1 4 . 4 m il li o n . B u t w e
– o b v i o u s l y t h e e n t ir e a m o u n t i f y o u lo o k a t t h e g o o d s t h a t m e s h e d th e
e x p o r t o f m o n e y t h e g o o d s t h a t w e r e r e c e i v e d w e r e a b o u t f o r t h e v a lu e
o f R 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 h a v in g e x p o r t e d R 5 1 .8 m i ll i o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll l e t m e a s k t h i s q u e s ti o n a n d m a y b e y o u d i d

t o u c h o n it a n d I d i d n o t a p p r e c i a te it . If I a m tr a d i n g w it h s o m e b o d y
w h o i s i n a n o th e r j u r is d i c t i o n a n d I n e e d t o p a y t h e m .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f I j u s t g o to a b a n k
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a k e i t t h e y w o u ld m a k e m e fi ll c e r t a i n fo r m s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th a t t h e y h a v e m e c h a n is m s i n t e r m s o f w h i c h

they ought to report to the Reserve Bank or maybe to law enforcement
20

a g e n c ie s i f t h e y s u s p e c t s o m e th i n g .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o t h e r w o r d s i f – b u t w o u l d I n e e d t o fir s t g o t o t h e
R e s e r v e B a n k o r w h e t h e r e v e n if I d o n o t fir s t g o t h e R e s e r v e B a n k i f I

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ju s t g o t o t h e b a n k th e b a n k w i ll g i v e m e f o r m s t h a t t h e R e s e r v e B a n k
r e q u ir e s to b e s i g n e d i f I w a n t t o p a y s o m e b o d y in a n o t h e r j u r i s d ic t io n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t u s e d to b e lik e th a t i n th e p a s t b u t
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t b e c a u s e o f th e e v o lu t io n i n t e r m s
of technology
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t r y i n g t o r e d u c e r e d t a p e
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u n e g o ti a t e w it h y o u r c o u n t e r p a r ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d y o u g e t in t o a tr a n s a c ti o n
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e p a y m e n t h a p p e n s i n th e e n d a s I
a l lu d e d t o th e c u s t o m e r s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : C l e a r a n c e d e c la r a t io n
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

20

S o y o u h a v e t h a t , y o u t a k e i t to t h e

bank.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d s a y I h a v e g o t th is c u s t o m e r

c le a r a n c e d e c la r a t io n th a t p r o v e s t h a t t h e g o o d s h a v e a r r iv e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d c l e a r e d .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e r e fo r e g iv e m e m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : To p a y fo r t h e s e g o o d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h e r e is n o fo r ms t o b e c o m p le t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t u s e d to b e in t h e p a s t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I t u s e d t o b e a r e d t a p e th a t w a s

h a p p e n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a it is te c h n o l o g y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Te c h n o l o g y a n d a ll t h a t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – b u t w h a t e v e r h a p p e n s y o u a r e s u p p o s e d to r e ly
to some extent on the bank.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r – t o b e a b l e t o p o li c e th is th in g p r o p e r l y. I f t h e
b a n k is n o t v ig il a n t e n o u g h y o u m i g h t n o t p ic k th i n g s u p y o u r s e l f ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u a r e r ig h t C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h e y a r e th e fir s t li n e o f d e f e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t th e y n e e d t o b e v i g i la n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I f t h e y s li p .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e m o n e y e s c a p e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o i t is w h a t n o r m a l ly h a p p e n s

b e c a u s e w e r e ly o n t h e m . A s I s a id t h a t it is t h e fo o tp r i n t o f b u s i n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u k n o w th e y a r e e v e r y w h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e y a r e s e r v i n g t h e ir c u s to m e r s b u t
10

if b e c a u s e – m a y b e I m u s t j u s t a ll u d e t o t h e fa c t t h a t th e r e i s a
r e q u ir e m e n t f o r th e F IC
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : K n o w y o u r c u s t o m e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Yo u k n o w k n o w in g y o u r c u s t o m e r is

s a y in g if it is m e w h e r e a m I w o r k i n g ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W h e r e a m I s t a y i n g ? T h a t is w h y n o w
w h e n y o u r e n e w y o u r l ic e n c e t h e y s e e k p r o o f o f r e s i d e n c e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A r e y o u a S o u t h A fr ic a n ?

Where do

y o u s ta y ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t f o r th e b u s i n e s s i t is a ls o t h e ty p e
o f i n c o m e y o u a r e g e n e r a t in g o u t o f w h a t t y p e o f b u s i n e s s .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

Yo u k n o w a n d h o w m u c h is m a y b e

y o u r t u r n o v e r o n a m o n th ly b a s i s ?

I t is k n o w y o u r c u s t o m e r s o t h a t

w h e n y o u h a v e g o t s p ik e s t h a t a r e o u t o f p la c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h o s e t h in g s n e e d s t o b e fo ll o w e d u p
b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m is .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d w e h a v e p ic k e d i t u p th a t w a y b u t
10

if t h e r e is n o - o n e in t h e b a n k t o b e a b l e to s a y I a m u s e d t o th e tr e n d in
t h is a c c o u n t b e c a u s e th a t is h o w th e b a n k s e v e n m o n i to r u s in te r m s o f
t h e y w il l g iv e y o u a b lu e c a r d to d a y a n d t h e y w il l te ll y o u o k a y n e x t
y e a r y o u s e e m t o b e b e t te r, a r e d c a r d a n d th e n a w h i t e c a r d n e x t y e a r.
Yo u w i ll g e t e x c i te d b e c a u s e y o u a r e b e in g u p g r a d e d . B u t th a t i s h o w
t h e y m o n i to r y o u r s a l a r y in c r e a s e , y o u r b o n u s e s t h a t c o m e i n t o y o u r
a c c o u n t to s a y [i n d i s t i n c t ] a n d y o u r t u r n o v e r – t h e t u r n o v e r i n t o y o u r
a c c o u n t to s a y th e r is k p r o fi le o f t h is p e r s o n i s a t t h i s le v e l . S o w e c a n
m a n a g e t h e r is k a n d w e c a n p r o fi le t h is c li e n t t h a t a c t u a ll y b e l o n g s a t
t h is le v e l .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o e v e n fo r c o m p a n ie s i n t e r m s o f

a c t u a ll y k n o w in g y o u r c li e n ts y o u n e e d to u n d e r s t a n d a n d u n d e r s ta n d to
s a y w h a t ty p e o f tr a d e – th a t is w h y H o m i x y o u k n o w y o u d o n o t
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t ty p e o f tr a d e t h e y a r e i n v o lv e d i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d . S o i s y o u r r e l ia n c e o n

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e b a n k s s u c h t h a t i f t h e y m is s s o m e th i n g y o u w il l n o t p ic k i t u p o r is
t h e p o s i t io n t h a t s o m e t i m e s y o u c a n p ic k it u p – y o u c a n p ic k u p w h a t
t h e y h a v e m is s e d o r y o u a r e a h u n d r e d p e r c e n t r e li a n t o n t h e m ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I t is a – i f I m a y a n s w e r it t h e o t h e r

w a y C h a ir p e r s o n . I t i s q u i t e a c o ll a b o r a ti v e p r o c e s s a n d l e t m e e x p a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o a s I a l l u d e d t o e a r li e r t h a t w h e n

y o u g e t r e g is t e r e d a s a b a n k t r a d i n g i n fo r e x .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O n e o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t w e n e e d
is t h a t y o u m u s t b e a b l e to h a v e w h a t is c a ll e d a r e p o r ti n g s y s te m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : E v e r y c r o s s b o r d e r tr a n s a c ti o n , f o r e x
tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t g o e s t h r o u g h t h e b a n k a n d i t g e t s s e tt l e d t h r o u g h th e
bank gets reported at the Reserve Bank
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

C o m in g t o y o u r q u e s ti o n s . W e a r e

a b l e n o w – w e h a v e g o t w h a t w e c a ll – m a y b e I c o u l d m e n ti o n a n o t h e r
d iv is io n .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

W i th i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t i s c a ll e d

a n a ly s is a n d i n fo r m a ti o n f lo w d iv is io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

Th a t in f o r m a ti o n c o ll e c ts i n f o r m a ti o n

b u t it is in f o r m a t io n th a t i s b e i n g p u s h e d b y th e b a n k s i n to t h e s e r v e r s

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
of the Reserve Bank.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t h e n w e a n a ly s e t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n
a n d th e n w e p ic k u p tr e n d . A n d I m u s t s a y th a t y o u k n o w t h e n a t u r e o f
a c ti o n s c o n t r o ll e d b e c a u s e i t is r u le b a s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A c t i o n c o n tr o l r e a lly.

So we have

in c o r p o r a t e d n o w b e c a u s e o f t h e e v o l u ti o n o f a l o t o f n e fa r i o u s
a c ti v i ti e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h a t f o r in s t a n c e e x c h a n g e c o n t r o l i s
n o l o n g e r a c o n tr a v e n t io n o f e x c e e d i n g a 1 0 m i l li o n a n d a c tu a lly t a k i n g
1 2 m il li o n i n s t e a d o f – th e r e is o r g a n is e d c r i m e s t h a t a r e a c t u a ll y
t a k i n g a d v a n t a g e o f t h is s y s t e m a n d a l l t h a t a n d i f w e d o n o t m o v e t o a
r is k b a s e a p p r o a c h a n d n o t j u s t d o a t ic k b o x a p p r o a c h b e c a u s e f o r
in s t a n c e i f I m a y t e l l y o u w h a t i s h a p p e n in g w it h c r e d i t c a r d s .

Some

b a n k s in t e r m s o f t h e ir b u s in e s s m o d e l s a n d t o s a t is fy a n d s e l li n g
p r o d u c ts t o t h e ir c li e n t t h e y w il l g iv e y o u m a y b e o n e o r tw o o r t h r e e
c r e d i t c a r d s a n d t h e n y o u w il l s a y t h is is f o r m y d a u g h te r s t u d y i n g i n
20

t h e U S , t h is is o r a n o t h e r o n e s t u d y in g i n J a p a n . B u t a l s o t h e f a mi ly
m e m b e r s – w e h a v e h a d fa m i ly m e m b e r s t h a t a c t u a l ly w i ll s a y g iv e th is
t o my n ie c e , g iv e th is t o m y u n c l e a n d w e h a v e lo s t a lo t o f m o n e y
b e c a u s e w h a t h a p p e n s w e f in d t h a t t h e - s h e n a n i g a n s th a t g o t o t h e
b a n k a n d t h e y g e t g i v e n t h e s e c r e d i t c a r d s a n d th e g u y t h a t r e m a i n s i n
S o u th A f r i c a w il l j u s t p u m p m o n e y in t o h is c r e d i t c a r d s h e r e a n d t h e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
m o n e y is d r a w n i n t o – w e h a v e h a d m i lli o n s b e in g d r a w n o ff s h o r e a n d
all that.

S o t h e b a n k s t h e ms e lv e s w e w o r k t o g e t h e r a n d y o u k n o w i n

t e r m s o f t h e y n e e d n o t t o b e m a y b e t h e y a r e a m b i t io u s in t e r ms o f –
a n d w e d o n o t a c tu a l ly s to p t h e m b e c a u s e i t is n o t i n o u r b u s in e s s to
g e t i n to th e b u s in e s s m o d e l s o f b a n k s a n d a l l t h a t .

W e a r e th e

r e g u la t o r s a n d a ll t h a t. B u t w h e r e w e fi n d t h a t t h e y a r e [i n d is t in c t] a n d
a c t u a ll y th e y a r e a c tu a l ly c o m p r o m is i n g t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n e n v i r o n m e n t
t o b e v u ln e r a b l e t o il li c i t f in a n c ia l f lo w s w e d e a l w it h th a t . S o w e a r e
not – in short because I have gone around to answer your questions.
10

T h e r e is n o r e l i a n c e o n ly o n t h e b a n k s t h e m s e lv e s .
CHAIRPERSON: On the banks ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W e h a v e g o t a s y s t e m – b e c a u s e i f I
m a y t e ll y o u C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n y o u g o a b r o a d w i th a s y s te m a n d y o u
spend your credit card.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h a t g e ts r e c o r d e d i n t o o u r s y s te m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o w e a l w a y s s a y t h a t y o u k n o w w i th
u s w h a t h a p p e n s i s Ve g a s d o e s n o t s t a y in Ve g a s . Yo u n e e d t o b e v e r y

20

c a r e fu l h o w y o u s p e n d y o u r m o n e y b e c a u s e w e w i ll k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y s o y o u a r e n o t h u n d r e d p e r c e n t r e li a n t o n
that?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : N o .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o it is – a s I s a id it is a [ i n d is ti n c t ] .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
S o o t h e r th i n g s w e w il l p i c k i t o u r s e lv e s b e c a u s e w e h a v e g o t a – w e
h a v e g o t a n a l y s ts th a t w o r k s a n d p i c k u p s tr a n d a n d a ll th a t . B u t – a n d
t h e b a n k s w il l p l a y th e i r r o le a s w e l l y o u k n o w t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Thank you.

Mr M a z i b u k o I a m m u c h

m o r e fa s c in a te d b y w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g o n p a r a g r a p h 3 6 a n d 3 7 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C : In o r d e r f o r u s t o r e a l ly a p p r e c i a t e w h a t
m i g h t h a v e t r i g g e r e d t h e s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a n d w h a t a c t u a lly o c c u r r e d in
10

t e r m s o f th e m o n i e s t h a t w e r e in v o lv e d .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y t o l d t h e C h a ir th a t

within a period of 7 days.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e r e w a s a l r e a d y a p p r o x i m a t e ly 1 3

c r o s s b o r d e r f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e tr a n s a c t i o n s w h ic h w e r e d o n e b y H o m i x
v ia M e r c h a n ti l e B a n k , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . I f I m a y a d d t h e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Ye s .

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Chairperson.

M e r c h a n ti le B a n k b u t t h r o u g h a n i n te r m e d i a r y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : C a ll e d P e r i t u s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .

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S o i t w a s H o m ix v i a

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

And on paragraph 37 you say that the

n e x t d a y I m e a n t h e n e x t d a y m e a n i n g t h a t a f t e r th e 2 9 t h .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O n th e 2 9 t h .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: On the 29th yes, there was an attempt to
e ffe c t a fu r t h e r th r e e tr a n s a c t i o n s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To t h e v a l u e o f 1 4 . 4 m il li o n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h a t is w h a t y o u k n o w tr ig g e r e d t h i s
10

e x t e n s iv e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d t o t r y n o w t o b e g in n o w t o i n t e r r o g a t e t h e
n a t u r e o f t h e b u s i n e s s w h ic h H o m i x w a s in v o l v e d in .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Am I correct?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d m a y b e I s h o u l d s a y t h a t y o u k n o w
m y q u e s ti o n s a b o u t h o w r e li a n t t h e R e s e r v e B a n k o r y o u r d e p a r t m e n t is
o n th e b a n k s w a s tr i g g e r e d b y th e f a c t t h a t s o m u c h m o n e y h a d g o n e
o u t o f th e c o u n t r y b y t h e t i m e y o u b e c a m e a w a r e . R 5 1 . 8 m il li o n w a s
gone.

20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : 8 m il li o n
CHAIRPERSON: Was gone.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I w a s w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r t h a t w a s t h e f a u l t o f

M e r c h a n ti le B a n k n o t h a v in g p ic k e d u p w h a t t h e y s h o u ld h a v e p ic k e d u p
a n d y o u w e r e n o t a t fa u lt t h a t i s y o u r d e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e t o

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
r e l y o n th e m o r w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d s h a r e t h e b l a m e b e c a u s e y o u c o u l d
a ls o h a v e p i c k e d i t u p ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o C h a ir p e r s o n t o a n s w e r y o u r

q u e s t io n t h e r e . B e c a u s e t h i s i s a f u n c ti o n t h a t y o u k n o w is d o n e b y t h e
c o m m e r c ia l b a n k s .

T h e y d o n o t c o m e to u s .

L ik e y o u a l lu d e d t o t h e

f a c t t h a t d o t h e y – d o I c o m p l e t e d o c u m e n t a t i o n ? Yo u d o n o t c o m p l e t e .
S o w e h a v e m a d e i t e a s ie r t h a t y o u k n o w d o n o t c o m e t o th e c e n tr a l
b e c a u s e th e r e is o n ly o n e c e n t r a l b a n k b u t g o t o a n y o t h e r b a n k t h a t is
a n a u t h o r is e d d e a le r i t w o u l d b e a b l e t o d o th e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : N o w a s I a l lu d e d t o th a t th e n a t u r e o f
t h e s e tr a n s a c t io n s fo r t h e m t o b e a b l e t o m o v e v e r y r ig o r o u s l y in o u r
s y s te m w e w il l b e a b l e to c a tc h t h e m b u t r e m e m b e r s o m e ti m e s r e p o r ts
t h e y t a k e ti m e . Yo u w il l fi n d t h a t – f o r in s t a n c e t h e r e is w h a t is c a ll e d
in b u s i n e s s i n te r m s o f w h e n y o u d o th e tr a n s a c ti o n s s e tt l e m e n t t a k e s i t
is c a ll e d T p l u s 2 s o y o u o n ly s e e i t a f t e r t w o d a y s w h a ts o e v e r. S o
c r i m i n a ls t a k e a d v a n t a g e o f th a t .

W h e n o u r r e p o r t in g s y s t e m p ic k s i t

u p y o u k n o w m a y b e a f t e r f iv e d a y s a n d a l l t h a t a n d s t a ts a r e g e n e r a t e d
t h is – t h e h o r s e h a s a lr e a d y b o l t e d i n t h is r e g a r d . Th a t is w h y n o w t h e
20

b a n k s i n t e r m s o f t h e m h a p p e n i n g a t t h e c a ll f a c e a n d t h e fr o n t l i n e
t h e y s h o u ld b e a b l e t o p i c k t h i s u p t o s a y t h is p e r s o n c a m e w i th a M R N
n u m b e r fr o m S A R S y e s te r d a y a n d d i d – a n d s a i d I m u s t a c tu a l ly p a y th e
s u p p li e r fo r 1 3 tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d t h is is h o w i t w a s a c t u a l ly r e f e r r e d t o
u s . B e c a u s e w h e n t h e y t h e n s a w t h a t t h i s t h i n g is n o t s t o p p i n g j u s t i n
o n e d a y o n t h e 2 9 t h th e y w a n t t o d o t h r e e tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d t h e y s a i d

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g w r o n g h e r e . A n d t h e n it w a s r e fe r r e d t o u s a n d w e
i m m e d i a t e ly b lo c k e d t h o s e a c c o u n t s . B e c a u s e t h e b a n k s c a n n o t b l o c k
b u t w h e n t h e y s u s p e c t t h e y c a n ti p u s a n d s a y y o u k n o w b l o c k – w e c a n
b l o c k t h i s [ in d is ti n c t ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I a m c o n c e r n e d t h a t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t o r th e

R e s e r v e B a n k d i d n o t p ic k u p th a t R 5 1 .8 m il li o n a n d i t w e n t o u t o f t h e
c o u n tr y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o n o w i s t h a t b e c a u s e a t t h a t ti m e n a m e l y 2 0 1 5 a t

t h a t t i m e y o u d i d n o t h a v e c e r ta i n s y s te m s t h a t y o u n o w h a v e w h i c h
w o u ld e n a b l e y o u t o p ic k t h i n g s u p ?

O r is t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u d i d

h a v e t h o s e s y s t e m s b u t t h o s e s y s t e m s o n l y p i c k u p a ft e r t h e e v e n t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In o t h e r w o r d s i s t h e s y s t e m y o u h a v e o r y o u r s y s te m
t h a t y o u h a d a t th e ti m e s u c h t h a t i n r e g a r d f o r e x a m p l e to t h i s 5 1 .8
m il li o n y o u c o u ld n o t p ic k i t u p y o u r s e lv e s b e fo r e t h e m o n e y h a d l e f t
t h e c o u n tr y o n l y t h e b a n k M e r c h a n ti l e B a n k c o u l d h a v e p ic k e d i t u p
b e f o r e i t l e f t th e c o u n tr y a n d ta k e n s t e p s .

Yo u c o u l d o n l y p ic k i t u p

a ft e r t h e e v e n t ?
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e a f t e r t h e

e v e n t it is w h e n i t is r e p o r te d to u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h ic h m e a n s t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e – t h e r e s h o u l d
b e a s y s t e m w h ic h l e s s e n s th e c h a n c e s t h a t s u c h a l a r g e a m o u n t o f
m o n e y c a n g e t o u t o f th e c o u n tr y b e fo r e th e r e is s a t is fa c ti o n t h a t
e v e r y t h i n g is in o r d e r ?

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I a g r e e w i t h y o u th e r e C h a ir p e r s o n .

T h e d i ffi c u l ty w i t h t h is is t h a t b e c a u s e a l o t o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s h a d
b e e n a t th e b a n k . N o w w e h a v e g o t – w e d e a l w i t h tr i ll i o n s o f y o u k n o w
in t e r m s o f th e a m o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d th e v a l u e o f …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e a m o u n t o f tr a n s a c t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e v a l u e o f tr a n s a c t io n s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Th e v a l u e o f tr a n s a c ti o n s in t h e

Reserve Bank.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d a 5 1 m i ll io n m i g h t s e e m t o b e

w h e n t h e y d o t h e r is k b a s e a p p r o a c h th a t w h e r e i t is b e in g p a c k e d i t
w a s j u s t a s m a l l a m o u n t w h a ts o e v e r.

B u t – b e c a u s e c r i m in a ls s t a r t

s m a ll a n d t h e y g r o w i t b e c a u s e i f t h is w a s n o t s t o p p e d I c a n te ll y o u i t
c o u l d h a v e b e e n 5 0 0 m ill i o n m a y b e a f t e r s o m e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o o u r s y s t e m c o u ld m a y b e b e th e

p r o b le m i s th a t i n te r ms o f th e t h r e s h o ld t h a t w e h a v e t o l o o k a t t h e r i s k
o n c e s o m e b o d y m i g h t s a y o k a y 5 1 m i ll i o n in r e la t io n t o 5 0 0 m i ll i o n y o u
20

k n o w is n o t a b ig a m o u n t a n d t h e n w e w i ll m is s i t t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . B e c a u s e i t m i g h t b e 5 1 m i lli o n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h t h i s a u th o r is e d d e a l e r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t is a n o th e r 5 1 m il li o n w i t h a n o t h e r a u t h o r is e d

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
d e a le r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

And in no time out of ten banks you have got 500

m il li o n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

Ye s a n d t h a t is h o w t h e y d o i t

b e c a u s e t h e y l o o k a t th e th r e s h o l d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A t w h i c h l e v e l d o th e y s t a r t to b e

s u s p i c i o u s a n d th e n t h e y u s e v a r i o u s b a n k s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t c e r t a i n t r a n s a c t io n s n e e d to
b e d e l a y e d b e f o r e t h e y c a n b e a p p r o v e d t o g e t o u t u n t il c e r t a in t h i n g s
a r e c h e c k e d b u t y o u m ig h t k n o w b e t te r t h a t m a y b e s o m e t i m e s w i th
s o m e tr a n s a c ti o n s n o – n o m a t t e r h o w b e s t y o u c a n t r y t h e r e w il l
a l w a y s b e s o m e t h a t w ill c r e e p th r o u g h .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a t h e r e w i ll a l w a y s b e s o m e b e c a u s e
w i t h t h e d e l a y C h a ir p e r s o n w e h a v e a lw a y s b e e n h i g h ly c r i t ic i s e d t o b e
a s tu m b l in g b l o c k t o t h e e ff ic i e n t w o r k i n g o f th e c o m m e r c i a l s y s t e m .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O f b u s i n e s s e s ja .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I n S o u t h A f r i c a s o o n c e y o u s t a r t to

say delay
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W e w o u l d r a t h e r i m p r o v e o u r s y s te m
t o b e m o r e e ff ic i e n t .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t a ls o h e r e I t h i n k th e m o r e r e l i a n c e
w a s m o r e o n M e r c h a n t il e th a n o n th e R e s e r v e B a n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d j u s t to p i g g y b a c k o n t h a t y o u a r e –
y o u a p p e a r t o b e p a r t ly y o u k n o w r e s p o n d in g t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n ’s
c o n c e r n s a n d I t h i n k y o u a r e d o in g t h a t o n p a g e 1 4 p a r a g r a p h 3 3 a n d I
t h i n k th a t m ig h t g iv e u s a f a r m u c h m o r e b e t te r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o
what …
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s , j a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a r e i n f a c t d e a li n g w i t h in te r ms o f
t h e s e y o u k n o w v o l u m e o f t r a n s a c t io n s . M a y b e i f y o u c a n r e a d t h a t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t a l k t o t h a t m a y b e w e w il l h a v e a f a r
much more better understanding.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s i f I m a y r e a d h e r e o n s e c t i o n – o n
s e c t io n 2 2 o f p a g e 1 4 w h e r e i t s a y s :o n a v e r a g e m o r e t h a n 5 0 0 fo r e ig n
e x c h a n g e tr a n s a c ti o n s o c c u r d a ily w i t h i n S o u th A f r i c a . A n d s o m e ti m e s
t h is c o u l d b e m o r e t h a n th a t . S o th e s h e e r v o l u m e o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s

20

r e q u ir e t h a t a u t h o r i s e d d e a l e r s d ili g e n t ly a n d s h o w c o m p li a n c e w i th t h e
s y s te m d e s c r i b e d a b o v e .

Th e e x p e d i t io u s m o n i t o r in g a n d a p p r o v a l o f

f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e tr a n s a c t io n i s e s s e n ti a l f o r t h e fr e e fl o w o f c o m m e r c e
in t o a n d o u t o f S o u t h A f r i c a n w h e n t h e ir s u s p ic i o n s a r e a r o u s e d
h o w e v e r s o th e y – w h e n w e s a y t h e y w e a r e r e fe r r i n g t o th e a u t h o r i s e d
d e a le r s t h e y m u s t r e f e r tr a n s a c ti o n s t o t h e S A R B f o r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . S o

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a l o t o f t h e s e t r a d e t r a n s a c t io n s t a k e s p l a c e w i th in t h e s p h e r e o f th e
c o m m e r c ia l b a n k s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

B u t t h e e m p h a s is w i ll b e th a t I

mean on average there are 500 000.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . J a o n a d a ily b a s i s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u k n o w f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e tr a n s a c ti o n s
t h a t a r e h a p p e n i n g o n a d a il y b a s is .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d n o tr a n s a c ti o n o r n o s y s t e m c a n b e p e r f e c t .

T h e r e w i ll a l w a y s b e w i t h t h e b e s t s y s t e m t h e r e w i ll a l w a y s b e s o m e
t h a t w i ll …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s th a t w i ll a c t u a ll y …
CHAIRPERSON: Go through.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : F a l l t h r o u g h t h e c r a c k s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now you were at the point where now we
k n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e a l m o s t – I m e a n i n to t a l t h e r e w e r e s ix t e e n
tr a n s a c ti o n s w i th r e f e r e n c e t o H o m ix .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

20

O r if I m a y a s k C h a ir p e r s o n – t h e

c o u n s e l C h a i r p e r s o n o n w h ic h p a g e a r e y o u n o w ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s I a m n o w o n p a g e 1 6 .

Yo u h a v e

a lr e a d y t e s ti f ie d a b o u t t h o s e a s p e c t s o n – w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o y o u r
p a r a g r a p h 3 6 a n d 3 7 a n d t h a t is w h e r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s q u e s ti o n s
w e r e a c t u a ll y d ir e c te d a t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .

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A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w w h a t I w a n t t o k n o w i s th a t s u r e ly a t
s o m e p o i n t w h e n i n v e s t i g a t io n s w e r e c o n d u c t e d t h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n a
p u r p o s e o r d e c l a r a ti o n b e i n g m a d e b y H o m ix a s t o w h a t i n f o r m e d th o s e
tr a n s a c ti o n s ? W h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t – o f t h o s e tr a n s a c ti o n s ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o i f I …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h a t d o th e y s a y t o y o u ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h e p u r p o s e – I w o u l d li k e to g o

f u r th e r t o 3 8 a n d s h o w
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e fa ls if ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n b y
Homix.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Th e p u r p o s e w a s t o i m p o r t s o m e t h in g
in t o th e c o u n tr y b u t n o t t h e f u ll a m o u n t o f a c t u a ll y w h a t is s u p p o s e d t o
b e i m p o r t e d t o m a tc h a c t u a ll y th e f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y t h a t h a s b e e n
b o u g h t f o r t h e b a n k a n d p a i d t o t h e s u p p l ie r. A s I s a i d th a t t h e r e w a s
t h a t h u g e m is m a t c h b e tw e e n a 5 l. 1 8 m il li o n i n te r m s o f w h a t h a s b e e n
paid out and the goods cleared through customs
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O f o n ly a b o u t R 5 0 0 0 0 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So, so now I just want to take the

C h a ir p e r s o n t o f o l d e r n u m b e r 8 to f o ld e r n u m b e r 1 2 i t is p a g e 3 0 6 t o
314.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J u s t g o t h e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: It is 317. Are you there?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a s o .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Folder num ber 8 is 317.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o ld e r n u m b e r ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F o l d e r n u m b e r S S E M 8 C h a ir. I t is p a g e
– i t is o n p a g e 3 1 8 b u t I th i n k i t s t a r ts o n p a g e y e s o n p a g e 3 1 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Is th a t th e d o c u m e n t th a t y o u w a n t e d t o
10

r e fe r t h e C h a ir t o ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o t h is o n e th a t I h a v e h e r e s o
ja t h is is s m a ll p r i n t . I a c t u a l ly w a n t to s t a r t a t S E M 7 b u t I h a v e g o t I
think a better looking one on my other – I cannot even see with glasses
h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i s t h e l ig h ti n g n o t g o o d t h e r e ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o – s o I t h in k t h e i n i ti a l o n e t h a t I

g o t – s o o n S E M 7 s o i t is a l l t h e tr a n s a c t io n s th a t …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 3 1 6 C h a ir.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O h i s i t 3 1 6 ?
20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O h
CHAIRPERSON: Ja page 316.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e p a g e 3 1 6 . Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h e s e a r e t r a n s a c t io n s t h a t h a v e

b e e n d r a w n fr o m a c r o s s b o r d e r s y s t e m w it h r e g a r d t o H o m ix . A n d s o
w h e n y o u a d d t h e m a ll – s o y o u h a v e g o t t h e R a n d a m o u n t a n d th e
c u r r e n c y a m o u n t in t e r m s o f th e d o ll a r s t h e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC: Chair I beg – may I provide you with a
better copy?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O f t h is d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Thank you.

And then maybe arrangements can be

made in due course.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: For …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e h a v e a c t u a ll y e v e n n u m b e r e d i t f a r

m u c h m o r e c le a r e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p l a c e m e n t ja .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e d id p ic k i t u p t h a t th e r e is a p r o b l e m
with it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ja . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ev e n w i th a g o o d g l a s s e s y o u w i ll n o t b e
20

a b l e t o r e a d th e o n e th a t i s o n th e b u n d l e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r M a z ib u k o .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s .

S o it is a p r i n t o u t o f th e s e

a m o u n ts a n d a l s o w h a t I – w h a t is h i g h l ig h t e d t h e r e t h a t w h a t w e
p ic k e d u p o n 2 9 M a y – 2 9 M a y a s I s a i d t h is g o e s t h r o u g h f r o m S E M 7

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
s o t h e c u s to m s – S A R S c u s to m s d e c l a r a ti o n s i n t e r m s o f t h e a m o u n ts
o n t h e 2 9 t h s o y o u lo o k o n t h e 2 9 t h t h e r e w h ic h y o u d o n o t g e t a c t u a l ly.
T h e y a r e n o t t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e s e o n t h e 2 9 t h if I m a y ju s t b e c a u s e I
wrote them by hand here by me to say…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m o n ly s e e i n g d a te 2 8 a n d 2 6 , 2 7 ja .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a . S o t h e – th e r e s t o f t h e a m o u n t s
t h e r e t h e y t o ta l 5 1 . 7 5 3 6 7 6 i f y o u a d d t h e m a n d t a l ly t h e r a n d a m o u n t
d o w n . H o w e v e r th e o n e t h a t w e n e v e r – n e v e r w e n t t h r o u g h t h e 3 o n
t h e 2 9 t h t h a t w a s s to p p e d 4 . – 4 8 2 7 7 4 0 S E M 8 4 8 3 9 8 7 0 S E M 9 …
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u m u s t t a k e u s t h r o u g h M r M a z i b u k o

t e ll u s – te ll t h e C h a ir w h e r e e x a c t ly a r e y o u r e a d y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t s e e a n y t h in g l ik e w h a t y o u a r e r e a d i n g .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e p a g e th a t I h a v e b e e n g iv e n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y s o l e t m e g o t o S E M 8 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ja and explain to us you know maybe

fir s tly w h a t i s t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d t h e n w h a t a r e y o u tr y in g to r e fl e c t to
20

t h e C h a ir o r t o c o n v e y to t h e C h a ir th r o u g h th a t d o c u m e n t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s p a g e – s o p a g e 3 0 6 C h a ir S E M 8 .
S o y o u w il l s e e t h e a m o u n t …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 3 1 6 y o u w il l s e e t h a t t h e p a g e s a r e r i g h t
on top SEM316.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

Okay let us go to page 318 so ja

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a p o lo g i e s f o r th a t . S E M 3 1 8 . S o t h e r e is t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e a p p li c a t io n to tr a n s fe r ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d w h e n y o u l o o k in t o t h e d e a l

in f o r m a ti o n o n y o u r r i g h t y o u w i ll s e e th e a m o u n t o f 4 8 2 7 – t h e r a n d
amount 4827740.

I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th e C h a ir p e r s o n c a n s e e .

U n d e r th e d e a l i n f o r m a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Is that in the middle of the document or at the

bottom?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a s o a s y o u c o m e d o w n t h e f ir s t – i n
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n y o u s e e in t h e m i d d l e o f t h a t d o c u m e n t w h e r e i t
s a y s G a u t e n g C i ty a n d w h e r e i t s a y s P O B o x 3 1 2 8 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u ju s t g o f u r t h e r u p C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: I must go up.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e r e i t s a y s H o m ix ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : U n d e r t h e d e a l e r i n f o r m a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Under the?

20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I do not know whether you can see

that?
CHAIRPERSON: Under the?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : D e a l in f o r m a ti o n . S o t h is – s o t h e r e
is a d e a l i n fo r m a t i o n w h e r e it t a l k s a b o u t w h a t f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes yes.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O n t h e e x tr e m e r i g h t C h a ir. I f y o u lo o k
fr o m t h a t h e a d i n g D e a l I n fo r m a t i o n th e n y o u tr a c e i t r i g h t u p u n ti l t h e
r ig h t h a n d s i d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u w il l s e e th a t a m o u n t 4 . 8 2 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I c a n s e e th a t h e r e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Is th a t t h e o n e t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o
Mr Mazibuko?
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h a t i s S E M n o w 8 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h is is t h e o n e t h a t n e v e r w e n t

t h r o u g h . T h a t i s w h y y o u c a n n o t s e e i t o n th e p r i n t o u t t h a t h a s j u s t
b e e n g iv e n t o y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t h e n t h e n e x t o n e – le t u s g o t o
S E M w h ic h i s o n p a g e
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t s h o u ld b e 3 2 1 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : 3 2 1 .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

321 yes.

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . E x a c t ly a g a i n t h e r e is a n a m o u n t
o n y o u r f a r r i g h t u n d e r t h e d e a l 4 8 – 4 8 3 9 8 7 0 th e r e a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h is a s w e l l n e v e r w e n t th r o u g h .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So which means here Chairperson

t h a t s i m il a r d o c u m e n ts li k e t h i s f o r a 5 1 m i ll io n a n n o ta t e d o n th e
p r i n t o u t h e r e t h e y w e r e a b le t o g o th r o u g h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o I a m h e r e I a m j u s t s h o w in g w h a t
a c t u a ll y n e v e r g o t h r o u g h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o w e c a n g o n o w t o S E M 1 0 w h ic h is
10

page 323 or 324.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 324.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : 3 2 4 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t h e n th e r e is a n a m o u n t o n y o u r
far right there 4 830 480.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o w h e n y o u a ll – w e a d d a ll t h e s e

a m o u n ts S E M 8 , S E M 9 , S E M 1 0 i t c o m e s to 1 4 . 4 7 1 0 9 0 t h e a m o u n t t h a t
w a s b lo c k e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

S o t h i s w o u l d b e t h e o n e Mr M a z i b u k o

t h a t y o u a r e – th a t y o u h a v e r e c o r d e d o n p a r a g r a p h 3 7 o n p a g e 1 6 o f

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
your statement.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s th a t i s t h a t a m o u n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o in o r d e r fo r u s t o g e t th a t a m o u n t w e
w i ll h a v e t o l o o k a t t h is
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n n e x u r e s t h a t y o u h a v e a c t u a ll y t a k e n
u s th r o u g h .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g th a t if y o u

lo o k a t t h a t a m o u n t 1 4 .4 .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t is m a d e u p b y S E M 8 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : 9 a n d S E M 1 0 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W h i c h n e v e r w e n t th r o u g h . T h e o n e s
a b o v e o n t h e p r i n t o u t th e y w e n t t h r o u g h a n d t h e y a c t u a l ly c o m e t o 5 1 .8
m il li o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I s e e . I f o l lo w t h a t a n d t h e n y o u w e r e –
y o u w e r e d e m o n s tr a ti n g t o t h e C h a ir th a t w h a t e v e r p u r p o s e t h a t m i g h t

20

h a v e b e e n p r o ff e r e d …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

By H o m i x i n r e la t io n to th is tr a n s a c t io n

one could not be able to verify it through …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e d o c u m e n ta t io n ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I w a n t to t a k e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o S e c t io n
3 8 ju s t t o l o o k a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 38? Paragraph 38?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja, paragraph 38 and …
CHAIRPERSON: Of your statement?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I j u s t w a n t t o h i g h li g h t th e d i ff e r e n c e

b e t w e e n s o m e d o c u m e n ts th e r e . S o le t m e ju s t m a y b e g o t o th e n e x t
10

page. I would rather maybe – do you want to go to Annexures 12 end
1 4 m a y b e t o m a k e th o s e c o m p a r is o n s o f t h a t ir r e g u la r i ti e s o r a r e y o u
tr y i n g ( in t e r v e n e s ) . ..
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : L e t m e …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Fr o m a m u c h m o r e d i ffe r e n t p o i n t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a . L e t m e g o b a c k C h a ir p e r s o n a n d
s e e b e c a u s e t h e r e is a d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n S E M 1 4 a n d 1 2 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W h e r e th e r e o n e i s t h e f a l s i fi e d c l o n e
o f - o f t h e o t h e r. I t h a s b e e n c lo n e d a n d f a l s i fi e d . S o I a m t r y i n g t o

20

lo o k f o r t h a t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h a t …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: But before you go there because …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I d o n o t w a n t to l o s e t h e s e q u e n c e o f

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
y o u r e v i d e n c e . I t is q u i te – i t i s q u i t e c r u c ia l.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Let us – let us stay on page 16. Let us
c o n c l u d e w h a t y o u w e r e te ll i n g t h e C h a ir w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o p a r a g r a p h
3 9 a n d I t h i n k t h a t is w h e r e y o u n e a tl y c o n v e y w h a t w a s a c t u a l ly – y o u
k n o w – u n c o v e r e d th r o u g h t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A t y o u r d is p o s a l .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s .

J a , I w a n t e d t o h ig h li g h t t h a t

t h a n k s C h a ir p e r s o n f o r t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty. S o o n - o n S E M 7 - I t h i n k w h a t
a ls o w e n e e d t o h i g h li g h t h e r e b e c a u s e i t w i ll c o m e o u t l a t e r i n – i n m y
e v i d e n c e t h e p r i n to u t th a t y o u g o t f o r t h e t r a n s a c ti o n t h a t a c t u a l ly t o t a l
5 1 o r 7 mi ll i o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o i f y o u l o o k a t t h a t in t e r m s o f t h e

b e n e fic i a r i e s o f t h o s e p a y m e n ts ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Where are you now?
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I am at the – I am at SEM7.

g o i n g t o c o m e t o t h is 3 9 C h a ir p e r s o n .

I am

So I am – I am back to that

p r i n t o u t t h a t y o u a c t u a ll y g a v e t o t h e – th a t w a s n o t c l e a r – y o u g a v e t o
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Page 3-1-6?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s .

Page 170 of 212

I

just

want

to

h i g h li g h t

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
s o m e t h i n g t h e r e a s w e l l.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A b o u t th e b e n e fi c i a r i e s w h o w e r e p a i d
5 1 . 8 m il li o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

To s a y a b o u t a l o t o f - o f th e s e

tr a n s a c ti o n s w e r e p a i d to a c o m p a n y in H o n g K o n g c a ll e d M o r n in g s t a r
I n t e r n a ti o n a l.

O n ly t w o o f th e m w e r e p a i d w h a t is c a ll e d Y K A

I n t e r n a ti o n a l Tr a d i n g C o m p a n y.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So – so you can see that one

c o m p a n y w a s b e i n g p a id q u i t e a l o t o f m o n e y.

So out of the 16

tr a n s a c ti o n s th e y i n te n d e d i n c l u d e d t h e o n e s th a t n e v e r w e n t t h r o u g h .
1 4 w a s g o in g to g o t o M o r n i n g s t a r a n d tw o w a s g o i n g t o g o t o Y K A …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: YKA.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d y o u w i ll s e e w h e n y o u s t a r t t o

lo o k a t S o le D ir e c t o r s o f t h e s e c o m p a n i e s t o s a y w h o t h e y a r e b e c a u s e
t h e y h a v e g o t S o l e D ir e c t o r s – y o u s e e w h e r e t h e m o n i e s w e r e g o in g . I
ju s t w a n t e d t o h i g h li g h t t h a t t o s a y M o r n i n g s t a r a n d Y K A .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y h a v e g o t o n e D ir e c t o r e a c h ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o le D i r e c t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : M o s t o f t h e c o r p o r a t e s - b e c a u s e t h e –
in t e r m s o f y o u r r e g is tr a ti o n o f t h e c o m p a n y C h a ir p e r s o n y o u c a n h a v e

Page 171 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a S o l e D ir e c t o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

It does not preclude you from having

that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

But what is very – a common thread

h e r e is a l m o s t a l l t h e s e c o m p a n ie s h a v e g o t S o l e D ir e c to r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I d o n o t k n o w f o r …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

For what reason and what benefit

because …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I a m n o t a u f a i t w i t h - y o u k n o w – h o w
companies are set up …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t i n m o s t c a s e s y o u w i ll s e e a s w e
unfold
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d g o fu r t h e r t h is p e r s o n – w h i le

sometimes he is not only one company but it is a Sole Director of three
companies.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e n y o u c a n th e n c o r r e l a te t h a t w it h

y o u r p a r a g r a p h 3 9 o n p a g e 3 6 . Is th a t w h a t … ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a . S o – s o I h a v e a lr e a d y a ll u d e d to
– t o th is C h a ir p e r s o n ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t o n e …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e – p a g e 1 - 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Just one second. Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r M a z ib u k o .

I was

r e fe r r i n g b a c k t o p a g e 1 - 6 p a r a g r a p h 3 9 .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y. T h a n k s C h a ir p e r s o n . S o t h e –
t h e – i f I m a y q u o te p a r a g r a p h 3 9 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

“The

d o c u m e n ta t i o n

provided revealed that Homix declared the purpose
of

the

above

mentioned

16

tr a n s a c t io n s

(13

p r e v i o u s tr a n s a c t i o n s t h a t w e n t th r o u g h p l u s th r e e
a tt e m p t e d tr a n s a c ti o n s ) a s b e e n to e ff e c t p a y m e n t
in f a v o u r o f o n ly tw o b e n e fic i a r i e s d o m ic il e d i n
H o n g K o n g b e in g M o r n in g s t a r I n te r n a ti o n a l Tr a d e
20

L i m i t e d ( M o r n in g s t a r ) , Y K A I n t e r n a t io n a l Tr a d in g
C o m p a n y ( Y K A ) . O f th e 1 6 tr a n s a c ti o n s 1 4 w e r e i n
f a v o u r o f M o r n in g s t a r a n d t h e r e m a i n in g t w o w e r e in
favour of YKA.”
I j u s t w a n t e d t o h ig h l i g h t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d i n o r d i n a r y c o m m e r c i a l p r a c t ic e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
w a s t h is u s u a l?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : N o . I t i s – i t is n o t – y o u k n o w – b u t I
w a s a ll u d i n g t o th a t f a c t e a r l ie r in t e r m s o f t h e – th e s p e e d a t w h i c h
t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s w e r e b e i n g p a i d o n a n u m b e r o f d a y s t h a t t h e y a r e
not even

a g g r e g a te d

because

in

a

forex

tr a n s a c ti o n

when you

a g g r e g a t e y o u s t a r t to s a v e o n c o s t s b u t if y o u a r e g o i n g t o d o a s o l e
tr a n s a c ti o n o n a d a i ly b a s is s o y o u a r e i n c u r r i n g a n u m b e r o f c o s ts i n
t h a t r e g a r d a n d y o u a s k y o u r s e l f w h y i f I a m tr a d i n g w i th s o m e b o d y
b e c a u s e in m o s t c a s e s - y o u k n o w - p e o p l e g e t p a id o n a m o n t h ly b a s i s
10

– y o u k n o w – t o s a y w h y w e r e t h e y n o t a g g r e g a t e d to s a y t h e 5 1 . 7
m il li o n m in u s t w o a n d t h e n y o u p a y th e b u l k a m o u n t t o – to M o r n in g s t a r
a n d t h e n th e s e t w o a m o u n t s w h a t e v e r b u t t h e y w e r e j u s t d o n e s e p a r a t e
– s e p a r a t e l y w i t h i n t h e n u m b e r o f d a y s a n d it i s a m o d u s o p e r a n d i th a t
y o u w il l s e e a s w e p r o c e e d w i t h my s t a t e m e n t i n te r ms o f th e fl u r r y o f
a c ti v i ty i n to t h e H o m ix a c c o u n t a n d h o w th e y m o v e b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s
w h e n y o u m o v e t h e m o n e y v e r y q u ic k ly y o u r i n t e n t io n i s fo r a n y b o d y
w h o tr ie s to b lo c k th a t m o n e y o r i d e n t i fi e d to b e s o m e t h i n g f r a u d u le n t
n o t t o b e a b le t o c a t c h it i n t i m e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h a t b y t h e ti m e th e h o r s e h a s

b o l te d th e m o n e y i s g o n e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d th e n m a y I r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 1 8
o f y o u r w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t ? Yo u k n o w a n d t a k e …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I a m th e r e – I a m th e r e C h a ir p e r s o n page 18.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t a k e u s fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 6 . Yo u d id
m e n ti o n a n e n t it y c a ll e d t h e P e r i t u s Fo r e x a n d t e ll u s m o r e a b o u t t h o s e
tr a n s a c ti o n s t h e r e t h a t w e r e b o o k e d t h r o u g h M e r c a n t il e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o – s o t h e s e tr a n s a c t io n s t h a t
w e r e b o o k e d th r o u g h M e r c a n ti l e w e n o w w e r e in f o r m e d th a t t h e y c a m e
t h r o u g h w h a t i s c a ll e d t h e Tr e a s u r y O u ts o u r c in g C o m p a n y. A s I s a id i t
is a n i n te r m e d ia t e – in t e r m e d i a r y c o m p a n y t h a t w il l a c tu a l ly s o u r c e
c li e n t s a n d p r o mi s e t h e m t o s a y t o g e t th e m s o m e b e t te r r a t e s . S o a s i t
is a ll u d e d to o n t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 4 6 t h a t :
“ T h e s e e n t i ti e s ty p ic a l ly s h o p a r o u n d f o r t h e b e s t

10

f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e r a te f o r th e ir c l i e n ts a n d a r r a n g e
d is c o u n t o n fe e s . ”
S o t h e r e is n o t h i n g w r o n g i n g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e Tr e a s u r y O u t s o u r c i n g
C o m p a n y b u t in t h e n e x t s t a te m e n t o n 4 7 w h e r e w e a ll u d e t o t h e
a m p a c i t y. I a l lu d e d t o t h e fa c t t h a t t h e r e i s k n o w y o u r c u s to m e r fo r th e
bank …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

For their customers.

Now once you

a d d a l a y e r w e h a v e h a d a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e s e Tr e a s u r y O u ts o u r c in g
20

C o m p a n ie s to s a y w h o ta k e s r e s p o n s i b i li t y f o r k n o w in g y o u r c u s to m e r
f o r F Y C r e q u i r e m e n ts .

So we just were making that statement to say

a n d it m i g h t h a v e b e e n t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e r e w a s a d e la y i n a c t u a ll y
p ic k i n g t h is u p t h a t t h e y w e r e d o n e t h r o u g h a Tr e a s u r y O u ts o u r c in g
C o m p a n y b e c a u s e if i t w a s k n o w n in t e r m s o f th e h is t o r y o f th e
c o m p a n y w h a t t u r n o v e r i t d o e s , w h o d o th e y h e l p i n t e r m s o f t h e r e l a te d

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p a r t i e s a n d a l l th a t . M a y b e t h e y c o u l d h a v e a c t u a ll y a r r e s t e d m o r e o f
t h e s e t r a n s a c t io n s e a r li e r t h a n l a t e r. S o t h e r e is th is Tr e a s u r e r a n d w e
a r e n o t – I a m n o t b l a m in g t h e m . I t is a – it is p a r t o f b u s i n e s s b u t t h e y
a ls o n o w w h e n y o u l o o k a t th e b a n k s li k e C h a ir p e r s o n i n te r ms o f t h e
v ig il a n c e n o w w h e n th e r e is a la y e r t h a t is b e i n g b r o u g h t i n y o u a ls o
lo o k a t t h a t o t h e r l a y e r.

So that – you know – it does not blame the

b a n k . T h e b a n k d o e s n o t b l a m e b a c k a n d s a y o h it w a s n o t m e . I t w a s
t h e Tr e a s u r e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t y o u a ls o w a n t t o s e e t h a t t h e l a y e r is n o t b e e n

used to hide something?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

J a , i t h e l p s a s I s a id .

It – th e

in t e n t io n i s t o h e lp c l ie n ts a s I m a d e a n e x a m p l e o f – y o u k n o w – a
b e t t e r b o n d i f y o u a r e l o o k i n g fo r a b o n d . A t w o r k I s a y r e l a x w e w i ll
s h o p f o r y o u f o r a b e t t e r i n te r e s t r a t e . Yo u d o n o t n e e d t o p h o n e t h e
b a n k s , g o t h e r e , d is c u s s i t a n d t h e n t h e y s a y th e r e a r e th e f o u r b a n k s .
T h i s w h a t w e h a v e g o t fo r y o u a n d i t d o e s w o r k b e c a u s e I h a v e u s e d i t
b e f o r e . S o – s o i t is n o t s o m e th in g w r o n g a b o u t i t b u t o n e h a s t o b e
20

v e r y c a r e f u l th a t th in g s t h a t a s I a ll u d e d t o c r e d i t c a r d s is s u e d b y
banks.

The things that – you know – or the system we open it up to

a s s is t t h e c li e n t a n d t o m a k e t h e s y s te m e ff ic i e n t.

It does not come

b a c k t o b i t e u s . S o t h o s e a r e t h e t h i n g s t h a t y o u m u s t a lw a y s c l o s e th e
lo o p h o l e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t a ls o

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M r M a z i b u k o – y o u k n o w – l e t m e t a k e y o u s li g h t ly b a c k …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : H m .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To y o u r s t a t e m e n t b e c a u s e fr o m p a g e 1 7
p a r a g r a p h 4 1 y o u n e a t ly c a p t u r e th e ir r e g u la r i ti e s – y o u k n o w – in
r e l a ti o n t o t h e s e p a y m e n t s w h ic h w e r e m a d e b y H o m i x t o t h e s e o t h e r
e n t i ti e s . I f y o u c a n p l e a s e s u m m a r i s e – y o u k n o w – t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s –
p a r a g r a p h s 4 1 t o 4 5 p l e a s e . Th e y a r e q u it e k e y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h is i s o n p a g e C h a ir … ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 1-7.
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : 1 - 7 ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y. J a , s o a n d I th in k th e r e o n – o n
page – on page 17 …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Paragraph 41.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : P a r a g r a p h 4 1 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u k n o w w h e r e th e r e i s a r e d f la g s o
w h e n w e r e f e r t o tw o e n ti t ie s t h e s e a r e t h e t w o e n t it i e s t h a t w h e n w e
d i d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a s to w h o a c t u a lly is r e c e iv i n g t h e m o n e y o n t h e

20

o th e r s id e w e f o u n d th a t i t w a s Y K A a n d M o r n i n g s ta r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . T h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o r r y th e b e n e f ic ia r i e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Fr o m H o m ix , y e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

J a a n d – a n d it w a s f o u n d t h e y h a v e

g o t a li t tl e o n li n e p r e s e n c e a n d o t h e r c o m m e r c i a l p r e s e n c e . W e c o u l d

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
n o t a tr a c k r e c o r d o f t h e s e c o m p a n i e s .

N o t th a t a c o m p a n y w i th a

w e b s i te t h a t l o o k s v e r y g o o d i s a l e g i t i m a t e . W e k n o w h o w m a n y h a v e
been robbed thinking that a number of websites because they look you
k n o w – b e a u ti f u l a n d t h e y h a v e g o t fu ll in f o r m a ti o n i t – b u t in t h i s c a s e
w h e n y o u l o o k a t it t o s a y m o n i e s t h a t c a n f l o w t o th e s e g u y s v e r y
q u ic k ly w h e n y o u g o i n to – a n d y o u w il l s e e t h a t w h e n w e lo o k w e a r e
g o i n g to l o o k t h r o u g h t h e D ir e c t o r s o f t h e c o m p a n y w e r e – y o u k n o w –
a t w h a t s ta g e i n t e r m s o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s in t e r m s o f t h e ir p a s s p o r t
n u m b e r s t h a t a r e r e fl e c t e d in s o m e o f th e s e d o c u m e n ts .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o i t w a s a r e d fl a g t h a t a c t u a l ly –

b e c a u s e y o u s ta r t t o w o r r y w h e n y o u s e e s o m e t h i n g t o s a y t h e r e is a
c o m p a n y r e c e iv in g 5 1 p o i n t b u t i t d o e s n o t h a v e - s e e m t o h a v e a g o o d
tr a c k r e c o r d a n d th e n …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: (Intervenes) yes.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d 4 2 I a ll u d e d t o t h e r e f e r e n c e

m o v e m e n t n u m b e r s t h a t a r e g e n e r a t e d b y S A R S a n d c a n b e v e r i f ie d b y
t h e c o m m e r c i a l b a n k s t h e ms e lv e s a n d t h e y a r e u s e d a c t u a l ly t o p a y
w h e n y o u a r e p a y i n g f o r – f o r i m p o r t s . S o – s o t h e s e th r e e m o v e m e n t
20

r e fe r e n c e n u m b e r s w h ic h w e r e s u p p l ie d b y H o mi x t o j u s ti fy th e 1 6
tr a n s a c ti o n s m e n t i o n e d a b o v e .
“ A v a li d a t i o n o f t h i s M R N s o n t h e … ”
I a m q u o ti n g n o w o n p a r a g r a p h 4 2 .
“…on the IVF System reveal that while the MRNs
were

valid

the

total

v a lu e

of

Page 178 of 212

goods

cleared

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
amounted …”
S o t h e y w e r e v a li d – t h e s e M R N s – a n d t h e m o n e y w a s p a i d o u t b u t
r e m e m b e r y o u p a y o u t f o r – t o c o n f ir m th e g o o d s c l e a r e d t h a t t h e r e is a
m a tc h .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h a t is w h e r e t h e M R N s - t o s a y w h e n
y o u g o to t h e b a n k y o u s a y t o th e b a n k o k a y o r i g in o f t h e g o o d s
s u p p li e r, v a l u e a n d h o w m u c h a m I p a y i n g f o r th e g o o d s . H o w m u c h d i d
y o u c le a r a n d th e y s a i d o k a y 5 1 m il li o n p a id o u t o n ly 5 0 0 0 0 w a s
10

c le a r e d i n th is . S o t h e s i g n i fic a n c e o f t h i s d is c r e p a n c y is t h a t t h e v a lu e
o f t h e p a y m e n ts m a d e o u t o f S o u th A fr ic a d i d n o t m a tc h th e v a l u e o f th e
g o o d s c la i m e d to b e i m p o r te d . Yo u k n o w – a u t h o r is a ti o n w a s s o u g h t f o r
5 1 . 8 m il li o n fr o m t h e b a n k to le a v e th e c o u n tr y w h i l e o n l y 5 0 0 0 0 w o r t h
o f g o o d s w e r e to b e i m p o r t e d in t o t h e c o u n tr y.

So I just want to

h i g h l ig h t t h a t o u t o f t h is tr a n s a c ti o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
you from page 18.

Ye s .

Now let me take you back where

Yo u w e r e s t il l t e l li n g th e C h a ir a b o u t t h e P e r i t u s

F o r e x S o l u ti o n s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n y o t h e r t h i n g th a t y o u w a n t t o

h i g h l ig h t i n t h a t r e g a r d ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o I j u s t w a n t t o o n p a g e – y o u s a id

page 16?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 18 – 1-8.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

1 - 8 - ja s o I h a v e – I h a v e e x p la i n e d

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
h o w t h e y w o r k in t e r m s o f t h e a m p a c i ty w h e r e s o m e ti m e s t h e y fa c i li t a t e
m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g b u t a ls o n o w c o m e t o p a g e 4 9 a s I w a s ta lk in g a b o u t
…
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Paragraph 49?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s p a r a g r a p h 4 9 – w h e r e i t s a y s :
“ A c c o r d i n g t o Mr C o n r a d Kr i e l o f P e r i tu s i t r e c e iv e s
in s t r u c t i o n s f o r t h e r e l e v a n t tr a n s a c t i o n f o r H o m ix
fr o m M r B h ik h u . ”
N o w m o r e a b o u t M r B h ik h u a s i s i t a ll u d e d t o i n t h e b r a c k e t s w il l f o l l o w.
10

“ H e w a s o n e o f th e S o l e D ir e c t o r s a n d th a t h e g a v e
t h e s e e i t h e r te l e p h o n ic a l ly to w h o m – t o P e r i tu s –
b y e m a i l fr o m a n e m a il a d d r e s s id e n ti fi e s a s – a s
H o m i x 7 8 6 @ g m a i l .c o m . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Now for a company to have such an

e m a i l i t b e c o m e s v e r y s u s p ic i o u s . By n a tu r e to s a y n o n o t t h a t t h e r e i s
n o t h i n g w r o n g w i th a n e m a il b e c a u s e p e o p l e u s e t h o s e ty p e s o f e m a i l
b u t f o r a n e s ta b lis h e d c o m p a n y th a t h a s g o t a n e m a il o f t h a t n a t u r e –
y o u k n o w – r a is e s o m e c o n c e r n s a n d t h e n h e s a y s :
20

“ R e l e v a n t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e tw e e n t h e ( i n d is ti n c t )
D e p a r t m e n t a n d M r Kr ie l i n t h i s r e g a r d is a n n e x e d
hereto and marked as Annexure SCM13 on 315.”
H e r e i f th e C h a i r p e r s o n w o u l d w a n t t o g o t h e r e .

So these are the

e m a i ls th a t w e r e b e t w e e n t h e c l ie n t – H o m ix - a n d P e r i t u s g iv i n g th e m
in s t r u c t i o n s a n d n o r m a l ly w h e n y o u a r e t r a d i n g i n f o r e x a n d y o u a r e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
g iv i n g t h e r a te s t h o s e ty p e o f tr a n s a c t io n s g e t s r e c o r d e d .
d e a li n g r o o m i n a b a n k .

I t i s li k e a

T h a t w h e n y o u w o r k i n a d e a li n g r o o m

w h a t e v e r ty p e o f a c ti v i ty t h a t t a k e s p la c e t h e r e n e e d s t o b e r e c o r d e d s o
that when something goes wrong you can go back. So even here. So
h e r e t h e Fi n S e r v e h a d r e q u e s te d in f o r m a ti o n w h e n i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s
h a p p e n in g a n d i t – i t w a n t e d t h e r e c o r d e d w h a t e v e r w h ic h t o o k a b o u t a
lo n g t i m e t o b e a c t u a l ly g iv e n t o F in S e r v e i n t e r m s o f w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g h e r e b u t t h e r e is n o t h i n g w r o n g h e r e i n t e r m s o f t h e
m i d d l e m a n w h i c h is t h e – t h e P e r i tu s .
10

T h e p r o b l e m w a s t h e ir c l ie n t

w h ic h w a s p r o b l e m a ti c b u t I w a n t t o m o v e t o – t o 5 0 – p a r a g r a p h 5 0
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Yo u a r e r e f e r r in g t h e r e t o …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: EDI Releases …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a , s o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h ic h a r e r e l a te d t o M e r c a n til e . Fi r s tl y
…
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E x p l a in t o u s – e x p la i n t o u s fir s tly w h a t

20

t h e s e E D Is a r e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h e E D I i s a n E l e c tr o n ic D a t a

I n t e r c h a n g e . S o i t is a m o d e r n s y s t e m o f m o v i n g i n f o r m a ti o n b e t w e e n
c o u n t e r p a r ti e s w i t h o u t p a p e r. S o i t is – i t is a s y s t e m – i t is a – i t is a
s y s te m t h a t i s b e i n g u t il is e d n o w a d a y s .

T h a t is w h y S A R S u s e s t h a t

s y s te m t h a t i s s o m e t h in g – I - I a ll u d e d t o t h e – to s o m e t h i n g t h a t S A R S

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C u s to m D e c l a r a ti o n w i t h a n M R N b u t t h e r e is w h a t is c a l le d a l s o a n E D I
R e l e a s e w i t h a n M – s o i t is a n e q u iv a le n t o f t h e s a m e s y s te m i n S A R S
t h a t - y o u k n o w – w i t h t h e r e l e a s e b e c a u s e t h e r e le a s e m e a n s t h a t I a m
s a y in g n o w t o t h e b a n k – y o u k n o w – I h a v e g o t a r e l e a s e fr o m S A R S
b e c a u s e th a t r e le a s e m e a n s t h a t m y g o o d s h a v e a r r i v e d . I h a v e g o t a
r ig h t n o w t o p a y f o r th e s e i m p o r t s . S o I w a n t m y g o o d s s o t h a t I c a n
p a y t h e s u p p li e r a n d t h e r e is a d i ff e r e n c e a s I s a i d t h a t b e t w e e n
advanced

payments

fo r

goods

fo r

goods

are

s ti ll

going

to

be

m a n u f a c t u r e d – b u t I w a n t t o d w e ll o n p a r a g r a p h 5 0 .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h a t:
“The

EDI

R e le a s e s

w h ic h

were

p r o v id e d

to

M e r c a n ti l e b y H o m ix v i a P e r i t u s in s u p p o r t o f t h e
relevant

fo r e ig n

exchange

tr a n s a c ti o n

a ls o

in d i c a t e d th a t Tu t u g a r ( ? ) C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n s h a d
a c t e d a s th e c le a r i n g a g e n t o n b e h a l f o f … ”
S o – s o t h e r e w a s a c la i m t h a t a c o m p a n y b y th e n a m e o f Tu t u g a r C lo s e
C o r p o r a ti o n s h a s a ls o b e s i d e s P e r i t u s a c t e d a s a c l e a r i n g a g e n t o n
behalf of – of Homix.
20

S o I w i s h t o p r o c e e d w it h y o u r p e r m is s i o n

C h a ir p e r s o n to p a g e 1 9 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t is ju s t t o t a k e th is f u r th e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So - you know – on paragraph 51 we

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
say that:
“ H o m ix

would

have

p r o v id e d

Tu tu g a r

w i th

th e

n e c e s s a r y i n f o r m a ti o n f o r l o a d i n g o n t h e E D I a n d
in s t r u c t e d Tu tu g a r t o a t te n d t o t h e s p e c i f i c c u s t o ms
c le a r a n c e s . ”
S o h e r e is s h o w s t h a t e v e n t h e s e c o m p a n i e s th a t a r e Tr e a s u r y
O u ts o u r c i n g C o m p a n ie s th e y d o h a v e th is s y s te m i n s ta ll e d . A s I s a i d it
is a n i n t e r n a t io n a l s y s te m i n te r ms o f t h e c le a r a n c e o f g o o d s b e t w e e n
v a r io u s ju r is d ic ti o n s th a t y o u c a n u s e .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

But did SARB – SARB – you know –

in d e p e n d e n tly v e r i f y fr o m Tu tu g a r w h e t h e r it w a s i n d e e d in v o lv e d i n
t h is tr a n s a c ti o n ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . F r o m Tu t u g a r y o u w il l s e e u n d e r
p a r a g r a p h 5 2 C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e th a t w h e n t h e r e w a s a s u s p ic i o n
Tu t u g a r w a s r e q u e s te d a n d a s k e d t o s a y w h e t h e r th e y w e r e in v o lv e d i n
t h e s e ty p e o f tr a n s a c ti o n s w i t h th e 5 1 . 8 m il li o n a n d th e y s a i d n o a n d
t h e n th e y p r o v id e d S A R B t h a t is w h y u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 5 2 th e l a s t
s e n te n c e :
“ I n s u p p o r t h e r e o f a n e x a m p l e o f o n e a u t h e n t ic
20

S A R S E D I R e le a s e N o t if ic a ti o n . ”
N o w S A R S E D I R e l e a s e N o ti f ic a t i o n t h i s i s a c t u a l ly t h e s a m e a s S A R S
C u s to m e r C le a r a n c e D e c l a r a ti o n .

It is ju s t - a s I s a i d – d i ff e r e n t

s y s te m s b u t th e m o d u s o p e r a n d i i s t h e s a m e .

Yo u r e le a s e .

Obtain

Tu t u g a r is a t ta c h e d b e c a u s e w h e n y o u b e th e r e l e a s e n o t if ic a ti o n is
that paper that you say my goods are here. The bank can you sell me

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y b e c a u s e t h e y a r e h e r e . I w a n t to p a y th e s u p p li e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , w h il e y o u a r e th e r e Mr M a z i b u k o .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : H m .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u t h e n – y o u k n o w – o n p a r a g r a p h 5 3
…
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

D e a l w i th t w o i m p o r t a n t a n n e x u r e s t h a t

is A n n e x u r e S E M 1 2 a n d S E M 1 4 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
10

Ye s .

I w a n t t o ta k e th e C h a i r p e r s o n

there.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . C h a ir t h e y a r e t o b e fo u n d o n p a g e
3 - 3 - 0 a n d 3 - 3 - 9 . I t i s i m p o r ta n t to o p e n th o s e a n n e x u r e s t o g e t h e r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a , w e o p e n t o g e t h e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o t h a t w e c a n i ll u s tr a te t h e p o i n t.

C h a ir I b e g le a v e to h a n d in – I t h i n k – I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r w e h a v e
better copies of those two annexures or not.
CHAIRPERSON: 3-3-0 and 3-3-9?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o …
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 3-3-0 and 3-3-9.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h o s e a r e t h e p a g e s . S o 3 - 3 - 0 is

SEM12 and 3-3-9 is SEM14. I just want to show the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . I th in k t h e y a r e le g ib le .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e y a r e C h a ir. I c a n s e e t h e m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .

Page 184 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k I w il l m a n a g e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o w e w i ll n e e d t o l o o k a n d c o r r e la t e
t h e t w o d o c u m e n ts C h a ir p e r s o n s o th a t w e c a n s e e w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g
t h e r e . N o w l e t u s ju s t g la n c e a t S E M 1 2 o n p a g e 3 3 0 . S o y o u s e e t h e r e
is a S A R S E D I R e s p o n s e N o ti f ic a t i o n ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S t a t u s : r e l e a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o it m e a n s r e l e a s e t h e g o o d s …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d th e n e ffe c t t h e p a y m e n t . N o w t h e
o th e r o n e o n t h e o t h e r s i d e o n p a g e 3 3 9 i s S A R S E D I R e s p o n s e
N o t i fic a ti o n .

I t is t h e s a m e b u t u n d e r n e a t h s t a t u s :

ready for cash

payment.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So

you

can

see

th e

d i ff e r e n c e

b e t w e e n th e t w o b u t I w a n t to t a k e y o u n o w i n to t h e d o c u m e n t d e t a ils …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

And – and just show what was

h a p p e n in g h e r e . N o w t h e – t h e S E M 1 2 w h e n y o u c o m e t o t h e d o c u m e n t

Page 185 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
d e t a i ls a l t h o u g h th e h e a d i n g S A R S E D I R e s p o n s e N o t if ic a ti o n s t a t u s :
r e l e a s e i s d i ffe r e n t fr o m t h e o t h e r o n e S E M 1 4 w h e r e S A R S E D I R e l e a s e
N o t i fic a ti o n s ta t u s : r e a d y f o r c a s h p a y m e n t. I f y o u n o w y o u s t a r t t o g o
in t o t h e d o c u m e n t d e t a il s y o u - y o u l o o k a t th e a g e n t f il e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h e b e tt e r o n e f o r m e is o n t h e o n e
S E M 1 4 w h i c h – y o u k n o w – lo o k s l ik e S 11 5 / 0 4 - 6 8 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t is t h e s a m e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e r e is S E M 1 2
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L o o k s t h e s a m e e x c e p t t h a t a ft e r d a s h …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It lo o k s 6 6 . I t l o o k s a s 6 6 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: 66.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o – s o - a n d t h e n y o u c o m e a n d l o o k
a t t h e d i ffe r e n c e a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I t h i n k th e o n e o n S E M 1 4 …

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L o o k s t o m e l ik e 6 6 a t t h e e n d a s w e ll b u t y o u m a y b e
s e e i n g i t a s 8 8 o r I s e e i t a s 6 6 b u t i t lo o k s lik e th e s a m e n u m b e r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u a r e r ig h t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s t h e s a m e n u m b e r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o it is t h e s a m e n u m b e r.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i t is t h e s a m e n u m b e r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t is n o t 6 8 . I t i s 6 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o – a n d t h e n y o u lo o k a t t h e –
le t u s l o o k a t t h e M R N n u m b e r o n S E M 1 2 a n d M R N n u m b e r o n S E M 1 4
a s w e ll – y o u k n o w. S o i t i s q u i t e l o n g b u t it a l s o lo o k s t h e s a m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m tr y i n g t o l o c a t e …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h e r e d o w e fi n d i t?

L e t u s d e a l fir s t

with S …
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o f u r th e r d o w n C h a ir p e r s o n f r o m t h e
a g e n t f il e n u m b e r w h ic h e n d s w i t h 6 6 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u ju s t g o a l i tt l e b it d o w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes I have got it.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Yo u w i ll f in d t h e M R N n u m b e r o n y o u r
le f t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I have got it.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W h i c h is c le a r in D u r b a n . S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S t a r ts w i t h D B N .

20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : D B N , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d t h e n y o u s e e th e d a t e a s w e ll

b e l o w th a t – b il l o f e n tr y r e l e a s e d a t e :

2 0 1 5 /0 4 / 0 3 , b il l o f e n tr y

assessment date …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k it l o o k s t o m e b il l o f e n tr y r e l e a s e d a t e l o o k s

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
lik e 2 0 1 5 / 0 4 /1 3 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 13 yes, yes.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t h e n t h e n e x t o n e is a l s o 2 0 1 5 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , s a m e d a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

W h ic h i s a b i ll o f e n tr y a s s e s s m e n t

date.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S a m e d a te , ja .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

B u t t h e n lo o k o n t h e r ig h t o f S E M 1 4 .

S o w h e n y o u l o o k o n t h e r ig h t - a s I a ll u d e d t o – s o t h e S E M 1 4 o n e is
10

w h a t w a s g iv e n b y Tu t u g a r t o u s to s a y i t is a n a u th e n t ic p a y m e n t . S o
y o u w i ll s e e t h a t j u s t o p p o s i t e t h o s e n u m b e r s C h a ir p e r s o n 2 0 1 5 o n y o u r
r ig h t i n v o i c e n u m b e r a n d d a te - o n y o u r r i g h t o n S E M 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y o n m y r ig h t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O n y o u r – o n y o u r …
CHAIRPERSON:

O n m y l e f t o n t h e o t h e r o n e t h e y s e e m t o b e o n th e

le f t o n th is o n e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o I w a s – I w a s a ll u d i n g t o t h e b il l o f
e n tr y r e l e a s e d a t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

2015/04/03

and

b i ll

of

e n tr y

assessment date.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d t h e n o n y o u r r ig h t o f th o s e

numbers …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : To m e th e y a r e o n m y r i g h t t h e r e i s a n
in v o ic e n u m b e r a n d d a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I c a n s e e th a t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d i t s t a r ts w i t h a n I N V.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I c a n s e e th a t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So on SEM14 you can see it.

Come

o n t h e S E M 1 2 i t i s n o t th e r e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O n S E M 1 4 t h e i n v o ic e n u m b e r a n d d a te a p p e a r
10

to be INV820150312-31.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And below that appears 15.03.17.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 17, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h m i g h t b e 1 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a n d y o u s a y w h e n w e
go to SEM12 at page 330 …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : L o o k t o t h e r i g h t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t in v o ic e n u m b e r a n d d a t e i s n o t s h o w n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o y o u c a n g o f u r t h e r b u t I w a n t u s to
go to the amount.
number of numbers.

O n th e S E M 1 4 ju s t – b e c a u s e w e c o u l d g o t o a
T h e r e i s w h a t i s c a l l e d I C N – I m p o r t C o n tr o l

N u m b e r is t h e s a m e a s w e ll b u t I j u s t w a n t t o b e s i d e s ju s t n o w
a n a ly s in g t h e w h o l e d o c u m e n t. I t a ls o lo o k s th e s a m e b u t I w a n t t o g o
t o th e C I F C a m o u n t o n S E M 1 4 – o n t h e a u th e n t ic o n e th a t c a m e f r o m

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
Tu t u g a r.
CHAIRPERSON: What number are you going to now?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o - s o if y o u c a n j u s t – j u s t w h e r e

y o u s e e i n – i n le t t e r s “ t r a n s p o r t d e t a i ls ” j u s t a b o v e t h e r e is a t o ta l
p a y m e n t , c u s t o m e r v a lu e a n d th e to t a l C F I C v a l u e o f 4 4 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I w a n t t o g o t h r o u g h t h o s e a m o u n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e fir s t t h ir d o f t h e d o c u m e n t , s e c o n d t h ir d o r
la s t t h ir d ? H e l p m e to lo c a t e w h e r e y o u … ?
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o a b o v e t h e tr a n s p o r t d e t a i ls is th e

t h ir d n u m b e r. Yo u k n o w u n d e r …
CHAIRPERSON: I can see “transport code”.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

W h e n y o u lo o k u n d e r m a s s /k i lo g r a m

of 12035 under SEM14 when you go for – when you go down.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : L e t m e a s s i s t C h a ir. I f – if y o u g o t o S …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e r e is “ tr a n s p o r t d e t a il s ” .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w I c a n s e e t h a t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J u s t a b o v e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I ju s t w a n t t o s h o w y o u th e a m o u n ts

to say …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t h e n t h i n g s s ta r t to d i ffe r h e r e . A

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
n u m b e r o f d e t a i ls th e y s e e m t o th e s a m e – y o u k n o w – a s I h a v e s h o w n
t h a t o n th e a u t h e n t ic o n e t h e r e is i n v o ic e a n d d a te is n o t h e r e o n t h e
f a ls i fi e d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o w h e n y o u l o o k a t h e r e y o u c a n s e e
t h a t e v e n t h e m a s s /k il o g r a m o n t h e – a n d t h a t i s – t h i s is v e r y s tr a n g e
because …
CHAIRPERSON: On SEM14?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o le t u s s t a r t o n S E M 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h e m a s s /k il o g r a m 1 2 0 3 5 .

Can you

s e e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n o n S E M …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , 1 2 0 3 …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fiv e o r s ix – I th i n k fiv e j a .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s . S o t h a t is t h e m a s s / k il o g r a m o f

g o o d s th a t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d t h e t o t a l C FC is 4 4 3 9 7 f o r

1 2 0 3 5 m a s s / k i lo g r a m . S o w h a t w a s p a id is 4 4 – s o t h e a m o u n t t h e r e
f o r t h e c u s to m e r i n s u r a n c e v a l u e is 4 4 3 9 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I a m t r y i n g t o c o r r e l a te t h a t w i t h t h e

S E M 1 2 w h e r e t h e m a s s h a s b e e n s o in f la t e d w h e n y o u lo o k a t th e o n e

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t h a t is f a ls i fi e d .

T h a t g o e s to – y o u k n o w – i t is 4 m i ll io n .

I do not

k n o w w h a t ty p e o f m a s s is t h a t w h e t h e r e v e n o n a s h ip ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a s s / k i lo g r a m 4 …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : M a s s /k il o g r a m 4 2 0 - a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: 4 250 000.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s a n d t h e n t h e a m o u n t i s s o i n fl a t e d
it b e c o m e s 3 6 3 o r i t’s 3 6 3 2 6 5 4 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It lo o k s t o m e l ik e 3 9 3 2 6 5 4 8 .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
10

Ja,

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e to t a l C I F C is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s , y e s , s o t h e s e a r e t h e

d o c u m e n ts t h a t a l m o s t l o o k t h e s a m e b u t t h e y a r e d i ff e r e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h is M E 1 4 is t h e a u t h e n t ic o n e t h a t

w e g o t fr o m Tu tu g a w i th a ll th e ir r e l e v a n t d e ta ils .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d t h e n t h e o n e t h a t , fr o m H o m ix

t h a t , p a r t o f t h a t 5 1 .7 m i ll i o n t h a t 3 6 m il li o n t h is i s th e o n e t h a t w a s
used.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o I j u s t w a n t e d t o s h o w th a t i n

t e r m s o f a s I s a i d w h e n y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e tr a d e b a s e m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g
t h e f a ls i fic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts f o r a tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t lo o k s l e g i t i t’s a
p r o c e s s , y o u c a n s e e t h e ti m e w e s p e n t ju s t s p e n d i n g t i m e to , i t’s g o o d ,
n ic e , th e fi g u r e s h e r e th a t i f y o u a r e w o r k i n g in a b a n k . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u a r e v e r y b u s y.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ar e y o u a r e e v e r y b u s y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t n o t h a v e t i m e .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Yo u m ig h t j u s t s t a m p b u t y o u j u s t

t a k e t h is a n d s t a m p a n d a t a l a t e r s t a g e t h is i s w h a t h a p p e n s , t h e
m o n e y h a s g o n e o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hmm, hmm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

In a d d it i o n t o t h a t Mr M a z i b u k o i f y o u

go to page SEM14 on page 339, right, are you there?
10

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I want to go, so SEM14?

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

J a , j u s t s t a y th e r e a t S E M 1 4 , i t’s t h e

o n e th a t y o u h a v e b e e n t e l li n g t h e C h a ir w i t h o n p a g e 3 3 9 .
MR

S I H WA E L I J A H

MAZIBUKO:

Ja, SEM14, yes

that one

C h a ir p e r s o n y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

L e t ’s g o to – y o u h a v e t h e t w o b ig

headings on top.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Th e s e c o n d h e a d i n g i t s a y s s t a tu s ,

r e a d y f o r c a s h p a y m e n t c a n y o u s e e th a t ?
20

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .
I f y o u g o d o w n t h e r e ’s d o c u m e n t d e t a i l

a n d i t h a s i m p o r t e r, c o n s i g n e e , t h e n y o u h a v e H o m ix , c a n y o u s e e t h a t?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s i c a n s e e t h a t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I m m e d i a te ly a f t e r t h e r e t h e r e ’s a n

e x p o r t e r, F G C , c a n y o u s e e t h a t ?

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w a r e y o u a b le t o s e e t h e s a m e i f y o u

g o t o p a g e 3 3 0 in r e la t io n to S E M 1 2 , a r e t h e c o m p a n i e s t h e s a m e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, I l o s t y o u , w h a t w e r e y o u l o o k i n g a t , a t

SEM14?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O n S E M 1 4 C h a ir y o u w il l s e e th a t t h e r e

is t w o h e a d i n g s , t h e f ir s t o n e s a y s S A R S E D I r e s p o n s e r e c o g n i t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

T h e s e c o n d o n e s a y s s t a tu s r e a d y fo r

cash payment.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h e n t h e r e ’s a h e a d i n g , s u b - h e a d in g

d o c u m e n ts d e ta ils .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

A n d it g i v e s y o u i m p o r te r a n d

c o n s i g n e e , a n d i t s a y s H o m ix P t y L t d , t h e n e x p o r te r, s u p p l ie r, F G C
C o m m o d i t ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

N o w I w a n t e d t h e – M r M a z i b u k o to

c o m p a r e t h a t w i th S E M 1 2 , w h e th e r th e s a m e in f o r m a ti o n e x is t ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

O n S E M 1 2 C h a ir p e r s o n a r e y o u ,

c o u n s e l a r e y o u a ll u d i n g t o th e e x p o r t e r, t h e s u p p l i e r ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , y e s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

J a , s o o n S E M 1 2 t h e e x p o r t e r is

M o r n in g S t a r, n o t h e s u p p l i e r is M o r n in g S t a r In t e r n a t i o n a l , y o u k n o w

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a n e x p o r te r is b e c a u s e i t ’s fr o m t h e o t h e r s id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h e y a r e e x p o r te r.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s f o r e x p o r t in g t o S A , a n d t h e n

h e r e o n t h e S E M 4 1 t h e e x p o r t is F G C C o m m o d i t ie s P ty L i m i t e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t is a l s o d i ffe r e n t .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s t h e y a r e d i ffe r e n t .
We can go to a number of examples but

I w a n t y o u to c o n c l u d e b y g o i n g b a c k t o y o u r s t a t e m e n t p a g e 1 9 ,
b e c a u s e I t h in k th a t ’s w h e r e t h e e s s e n c e o f y o u r t e s ti m o n y l ie s ,
10

paragraph 53, can you see?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f y o u g o t o l in e n u m b e r 4 i f y o u c a n

r e a d f o r th e C h a i r w h e r e i t s ta r t s b y s a y i n g “ n o t a b ly ” .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w I t a k e i t th a t th is n o t a b ly i t’s n o w

a ft e r y o u h a v e n o w d o n e t h is t h o r o u g h e x e r c is e , a n d a l lu d e d t o t h e s e
d is c r e p a n c ie s , a n d t h e n c a n y o u r e a d t h a t in t o t h a t r e c o r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d w h a t p a g e ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t ’s p a g e 1 9 C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: One nine?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 19, paragraph 53.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d l in e n u m b e r fo u r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s , s o i t r e a d s th u s C h a ir p e r s o n I

d o n ’t k n o w w h e th e r y o u – a r e y o u t h e r e n o w ?

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c a n r e a d u p t h e r e , j a y o u c a n r e a d .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : N o t a b ly t h e e x p o r t e r /s u p p li e r c u s t o ms
v a l u e s a n d d u t ie s p a y a b l e d i ffe r.
m o r e t h a n o n e o c c a s io n .

T h is w a s fo u n d t o b e th e c a s e o n

I t f o ll o w s t h a t o n a b a l a n c e o f p r o b a b il i ti e s

t h e E D I r e l e a s e s p r o v i d e d t o m a k e e n tir e ly b y H o m ix w e r e f a l s i f ie d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Th a t ’s e x a c tl y t h e p o i n t th a t y o u w a n t t o
c o n v e y to t h e C h a ir ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s , b u t a s ( i n d is ti n c t) t h is is p a r t a n d
p a r c e l o f tr a d e b a s e m o n e y la u n d e r i n g b y H o m i x .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w if w e c a n m o v e n o w to p a g e
2 1 , p a r a g r a p h 5 4 o f y o u r w it n e s s s t a te m e n t w h e r e y o u ’r e d e a l i n g w i th
t h e e n f o r c e m e n t a c ti o n t a k e n a g a i n s t H o m i x , a n d p l e a s e t e l l th e C h a i r i f
y o u a r e a b l e t o s u m m a r is e t h o s e c o n te n t s b u t i f y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o
p l e a s e e m p h a s iz e w h a te v e r p o i n ts y o u m a y w a n t to e m p h a s iz e u n d e r
that heading.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o C h a ir u n d e r t h e e n f o r c e m e n t
a c ti o n t a k e n a g a i n s t H o m ix , n o w t h is i s t h e d i v is i o n I a ll u d e d to ,
c o m p li a n c e a n d e n fo r c e m e n t a c ti o n , a l e tt e r w a s a d d r e s s e d t o t h e
d ir e c t o r o f H o m i x , b o th b y e m a il a n d r e g is t e r e d m a il i n v i ti n g h is

20

d ir e c t o r to m a k e r e p r e s e n ta t io n a s t o w h y t h e f u n d s b l o c k e d t h a t
R 1 4 m i ll io n i n t h e M e r c h a n t M e r c a n t il e B a n k a c c o u n t s h o u l d n o t b e
d e c l a r e d f o r f e i t to t h e S t a t e i n t e r m s o f E x c h a n g e C o n tr o l 2 2 B .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y I r e fe r y o u to b e c a u s e th a t i s q u i te

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a n i m p o r ta n t l e t te r m a y I r e f e r y o u t o S E M 1 4 , C h a ir i t ’s o n p a g e 3 4 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: 341?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’v e g o t i t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I s t h a t t h e l e t te r t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g

to?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h a t w a s d ir e c t e d t o M r B ik o ,

r e m e m b e r M r B ik o i s th e o n e t h a t g a v e i n s tr u c ti o n to P e r u t is t h r o u g h
y o u k n o w a g m a il a c c o u n t s o t h e l e tt e r w a s d ir e c t e d t o h i m , a n d t h e y
10

w e r e ju s t . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e d a t e o f t h e le t t e r ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e d a t e o f t h e l e t t e r i s 2 0 1 5 / 0 7 /2 9 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o 2 9 J u ly 2 0 1 5 ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i f y o u g o t o t h e h e a d in g if y o u c a n
r e a d t h e h e a d in g fo r u s M r M a z i b u k o s o t h a t w e c a n a p p r e c ia t e w h a t
w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f th is le t t e r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h e h e a d i n g r e a d s l ik e th is

C h a ir p e r s o n “ A l l e g e d C o n tr a v e n ti o n s o f t h e Pr o v is i o n s o f E x c h a n g e
20

C o n tr o l R e g u l a t i o n s m a d e u n d e r S e c ti o n 9 o f t h e C u r r e n c y a n d
E x c h a n g e s A c t 1 9 3 3 , A c t n u m b e r 9 o f .. .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A s y o u r e a d p l e a s e m i n d y o u r m ic s o a t
le a s t w e c a n b e a b l e t o c a tc h y o u r e v id e n c e , y e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A lr ig h t , y e s , a p o l o g i e s f o r t h a t.

m a y b e l e t m e s ta r t s o t h a t o n e is n o t l o s t i n t r a n s la t io n .

Page 197 of 212

So

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t r e a d s li k e th is :
“ A l le g e d c o n t r a v e n ti o n s o f th e Pr o v is i o n s o f t h e E x c h a n g e
C o n tr o l R e g u l a t i o n s m a d e u n d e r S e c ti o n 9 o f th e C u r r e n c y a n d
Exchanges Act 1933, (Act Number 9 of 1933 as amended), as
p r o m u l g a t e d b y G o v e r n m e n t N o ti c e R 111 / 1 9 6 1 C l a u s e 0 1 i s
a m e n d e d H o m ix P t y L i m it e d R e g i s t r a t io n N u m b e r . . . . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , w h a t d o t h e y c a l l i t th e r e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
“ . . .R e g i s t r a t io n

10

number

2 0 1 2 / 1 7 6 9 5 1 /0 7 )

and/or

i ts

s o le

d ir e c t o r b e in g M r J a c o o b A h m e d S u l e i m a n B ik o .. . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e t o m e n ti o n th e I D

n u m b e r, i t ’s fi n e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s , y e s s o th a t w a s t h e h e a d i n g o f

t h e le t t e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , a n d I – a n d fr o m p a r a g r a p h o n e y o u
r e fe r t o th e r e l e v a n t l e g is l a ti o n to t h is le t t e r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h t h a t , b u t

i m p o r t a n tly p a g e 3 4 2 , i f y o u c a n t a k e t h e C h a ir, b e c a u s e t h i s is q u i t e
i m p o r t a n t Mr M a z i b u k o p le a s e r e a d fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 u p u n ti l p a r a g r a p h
3 .3 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

O k a y, I w i ll r e a d C h a ir p e r s o n .

Paragraph 2:
“ O n o r a b o u t 2 9 M a y 2 0 1 5 H o m i x P t y L i m i t e d h e r e i n r e f e r r e d to

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
a s H o m ix a n d / o r i ts s o le d ir e c t o r M r J a c o o b A h m e d S u l e i m a n
B ik o h e r e i n r e f e r r e d t o a s Mr B ik o w a s p a r t y t o c e r t a i n a c ts
a n d / o r o m is s i o n s w h ic h c o n s t it u t e d c o n tr a v e n ti o n s o f t h e
p r o v i s i o n s o f th e r e g u la t io n s o f w h ic h a r e o n r e a s o n a b l e
g r o u n d s s u s p e c te d to h a v e c o n s t it u t e d s u c h c o n v e n ti o n s ,
d e t a i ls o f w h i c h c o n tr a v e n ti o n s o r s u s p e c t e d c o n t r a v e n ti o n s
a r e m o r e f u l ly s e t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 3 i n f r a . ”
Paragraph 3:
“As
10

referred

to

in

paragraph

2

above

the

f o ll o w i n g

c o n tr a v e n ti o n s o f t h e p r o v is i o n s o f t h e r e g u l a t i o n s h a v e b e e n
c o m m i t t e d o r a r e o n r e a s o n a b l e g r o u n d s s u s p e c te d to h a v e
b e e n c o m m i t te d , n a m e ly :
3 .1

C o n tr a v e n t i o n s

or

suspected

c o n tr a v e n ti o n s

R e g u l a ti o n 2 . 4 in t h a t H o m ix a n d / o r M r B ik o a p p li e d
f o r f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y t o th e v a l u e o f R 2 9 8 8 5 6 7 1 t o b e
tr a n s fe r r e d v ia M e r c a n ti l e L i mi t e d o u t o f t h e R e p u b l ic
o n b e h a l f o f H o m ix w h ic h f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y w h ic h w a s
t o b e u s e d f o r o r a p p l i e d to a p u r p o s e o t h e r t h a n
s t a te d i n th e r e l e v a n t a p p l ic a t i o n .
20

3 .2

C o n tr a v e n t i o n s

or

suspected

c o n tr a v e n t io n s

or

R e g u l a ti o n 3 .1 i n t h a t H o m ix a n d /o r M r B ik o a tt e m p t e d
t o t r a n s f e r f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y fr o m t h e R e p u b l ic w i t h o u t
p e r m is s io n

granted

by

the

Tr e a s u r y

or

not

in

a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e c o n d i ti o n t h a t th e Tr e a s u r y m a y
have imposed.”

Page 199 of 212

07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
Yo u s a i d I m u s t s t o p h e r e ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No, no you must proceed.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
“ 3 .3

C o n tr a v e n t i o n s

or

suspected

c o n tr a v e n t io n s

of

R e g u l a ti o n s 1 0 ( 1 ) ( c ) i n th a t H o m i x a n d / o r M r B ik o
e n t e r e d i n t o tr a n s a c ti o n s w h e r e b y c a p i ta l o r a n y r i g h t
t o c a p i t a l w a s d ir e c tl y o r i n d i r e c t ly e x p o r t e d fr o m t h e
R e p u b l ic w i th o u t p e r m is s i o n g r a n t e d b y t h e Tr e a s u r y
a n d n o t in a c c o r d a n c e w i th th e c o n d i t io n s t h a t t h e
10

Tr e a s u r y m a y h a v e i m p o s e d . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d y o u r e f e r a ls o to t h o s e tr a n s a c ti o n s ,
t h e y g o u p u n t il p a r a g r a p h 6 o n p a g e 3 4 3 , a m I r i g h t?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s , y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC: Now what I want to know upon this that
h a d b e e n d i s p e r s e d t o H o m i x a n d i t s s o l e d i r e c to r d id t h e y e v e r
r e s p o n d to t h i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e y n e v e r r e s p o n d e d C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And am I correct that they were also

a ffo r d e d a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s th is le t t e r is w h e r e w e w a n t t h e m
s o i t ’s a a u d i a l t e r a m p a r t e m p r i n c i p le b e i n g a p p l ie d , th is h e r e t h e o th e r
s id e , w h e r e w e a r e lo o k i n g f o r, b e c a u s e w e h a v e n o w i d e n ti f ie d th a t
t h e y h a v e c o n t r a v e n e d t o s a y t h e y m u s t c o m e a n d e x p l a i n t h e m s e lv e s
a n d w e w a n t a f u l l, f r a n k a n d v e r if i a b l e d is c lo s u r e fr o m t h e m , s o th e y
never came back to us.

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e s e , I m e a n t h e s e tr a n s g r e s s io n s
are very serious am I correct?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s th e y a r e v e r y, v e r y s e r io u s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w y o u h ig h l i g h t th e s e r io u s n e s s a l s o
with reference, if I may take you back to page 342.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : 3 4 2 ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . It ’s t h e v e r y s a m e l e t te r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

I w a s j u s t in t e r p o s i n g p u t s o m e

q u e s t io n s t o y o u b u t I w a n t to p r o c e e d w i t h p a r a g r a p h 3 . 4 o n w a r d s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s , o k a y, s o 3 . 4 c o n t r a v e n ti o n s o r

s u s p e c t e d c o n tr a v e n t io n o f R e g u l a ti o n 1 9 r e a d w it h R e g u l a ti o n 2 2 , s o
R e g u l a ti o n 1 9 r e fe r s t o fa ls e i n f o r m a ti o n , i f I m a y j u s t a ll u d e t o th a t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s if y o u c a n r e a d t h e f o l l o w i n g p a g e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t h e n 3 4 1 :
“ I n c o r r e c t s t a t e m e n ts w e r e m a d e i n d e c l a r a ti o n in a p p li c a t io n s
t o p u r c h a s e f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y to a n a u th o r i s e d d e a l e r. ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h i s i s w h a t y o u w e r e a l lu d in g t o in
y o u r te s t i m o n y e a r li e r o n t o th e C h a ir a m I c o r r e c t .
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s , y e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d t h e n 3 . 4 .2 ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
“ 3 .4 . 2

F a l s e d o c u m e n ta t io n a n d / o r d o c u m e n ta t io n c o n ta in i n g

f a ls e o r i n c o r r e c t s t a t e m e n ts w e r e p r o v id e d to a n a u t h o r is e d
d e a le r in s u p p o r t o f a p p l ic a ti o n s t o p u r c h a s e fo r e ig n c u r r e n c y. ”

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , a n d p a r a g r a p h 4 ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : P a r a g r a p h 4 :
“ O n o r a b o u t 2 9 M a y 2 0 1 5 a d u ly a u th o r i s e d o ffi c e r o f t h e
Fi n a n c i a l

S u r v e i ll a n c e

Department

of

th e

S o u th

A fr ic a n

R e s e r v e B a n k is s u e d a n o r d e r i n t e r m s o f th e p r o v is io n s o f
R e g u l a ti o n 2 2 A w h e r e b y n o p e r s o n m a y w i t h d r a w o r c a u s e th e
w i t h d r a w a l o f o r a p p r o p r ia t in g a n y m a n n e r a n a m o u n t o f 1 4 4
7 2 0 4 7 5 . 0 0 t o g e t h e r w i th in t e r e s t t h e r e o n o r a c c r u a l th e r e to
S t e r li n g t o th e c r e d i t o f H o m ix i n a c c o u n t n u m b e r . . . . ”
10

Should I read the account number?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No don’t.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
“ . . .h e ld a t M e r c a n t il e B a n k L i m i t e d . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , n o w m a y I r e f e r y o u b a c k t o p a g e

21 of your statement.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I’ m t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t w h i le , b e f o r e y o u d o th a t , s o y o u r p r o c e d u r e

w o u ld b e y o u f ir s t b lo c k th e a c c o u n t a n d t h e n y o u g iv e th e m a u d i
alteram partem.
20

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n i f th e y d o n ’ t r e s p o n d t h e m o n e y i s fo r f e it e d
to the State.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

J a s o m e ti m e s i t d e f a u l ts a li t t le b it

C h a ir p e r s o n s o w h e n w e b l o c k s o w h a t n o r m a lly h a p p e n s i m m e d ia t e l y i f
y o u r a c c o u n t i s b lo c k e d y o u ’ r e g o i n g t o j u m p to s a y y o u w i ll s a y y o u

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
k n o w h o w a m I g o i n g to li v e , h o w a m I g o i n g t o p a y f o r m y l iv in g
e x p e n s e s , s o t h e n p h o n e i m m e d i a t e ly i n o r a s k t h e b a n k t o s a y w h y i s
m y a c c o u n t b l o c k e d a n d t h e y w i ll te ll y o u i t ’s t h e S o u th A f r ic a n R e s e r v e
B a n k b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e s u s p ic io u s – o r i t ’s u s t h a t r e p o r t e d y o u , I d o n ’ t
k n o w w h e t h e r th e y d o s a y t h a t t o th e c li e n t , a n d h e n c e th e R e s e r v e
B a n k h a s a c t u a l ly b l o c k e d y o u r a c c o u n t a n d t h e n y o u c a n m a k e
a r r a n g e m e n ts t o c o m e t o u s i m m e d i a te ly s o t h a t y o u c a n c l a r i fy t h e
s i tu a ti o n a s t o .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t s o m e t i m e s p e o p l e j u s t d is a p p e a r.
10

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o i m m e d i a t e ly t h e r e is s o m e

s h e n a n i g a n s g o i n g o n t h e r e ’s s o m e d e l a y i n c o m in g to u s , s o in o r d e r
n o w t o f u l f il t h e w h o le p r o c e s s o f g iv i n g a f a ir p r o c e s s t o e v e r y b o d y w e
w i ll w a it u n t il y o u c o m e , s o m e t i m e s y o u a r e a l l o w e d t o b r i n g y o u r
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e w h ic h is a n a t t o r n e y to c o m e a n d t a lk o n y o u r b e h a l f,
t h a t y o u a r e a ll o w e d t o d o , s o w e w i ll e n g a g e w i th t h e m a n d s o m e t i m e s
t h e y w i ll p r o m is e t o p r o v i d e d o c u m e n t a ti o n , a s I s a i d n o w w e n e e d t o
p r o v i d e f u ll fr a n k a n d v e r i fi a b l e , s o I w i ll b r i n g t h i s t o c o n f ir m t h i s s o
t h a t it is n o t – s o y o u n e e d t o p r o v e t o u s th a t w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g h e r e
is n o t w h a t w e s e e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u t a k e ti m e b e f o r e y o u c o n c l u d e th a t t h e p e r s o n
m a y b e i s n o t i n t e r e s t e d i n m a k i n g r e p r e s e n ta t io n s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s , s o w h e n w e o p e n . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : If it is q u i e t t h e y d o n ’ t c o n ta c t y o u o v e r a lo n g p e r io d .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A l o n g p e r i o d , s o m e ti m e s – w e a r e

g iv e n a m a x i m u m t i m e o f t h r e e y e a r s w h e n w e o p e n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n

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fi le t o a c tu a l ly in s t i tu t e th e fo r f e it u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I f w e d o n ’t w e h a v e t o g iv e t h e m o n e y
back.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir t h e r e is o n e m o r e t o p ic b u t w e a r e
s t il l b u s y w i t h t h i s t o p ic , i t ’s fo u r o ’c l o c k I’ m n o t s u r e u p u n ti l w h a t ti m e
s h o u l d w e g o C h a ir, w h e t h e r C h a ir is g o in g to u s e th e h e lic o p te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e c a n g o u p t o q u a r t e r p a s t f o u r.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Q u a r t e r p a s t fo u r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e w i t n e s s is n o t a v a i la b l e

b e y o n d . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t w e r e d a y s th a t h e is n o t a v a i l a b le I
c a n j u s t tr y to . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e – i f h e is n o t a v a i l a b l e o n M o n d a y w e c a n –
a r r a n g e m e n ts c a n b e m a d e f o r a n o t h e r d a y.
A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C : L e t m e t u r n my b a c k f o r a m o m e n t C h a ir,
le t m e j u s t v e r i fy i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e s e e m s to in d ic a te a v a i la b ili t y o r . . .
20

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I a m a v a i la b l e . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a v a il a b l e o n M o n d a y, o h o k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k
y o u . I th i n k th a t ’s v e r y h e l p f u l s o w e c a n g o u p t o q u a r t e r p a s t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Q u a r te r p a s t , t h e n m a y b e e v e n o n

M o n d a y w e c a n s t a r t e a r ly ?
CHAIRPERSON:

O n M o n d a y w e c a n s t a r t e a r l y t o f in is h w i th h i m ,

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m a y b e w e w i ll s t a r t a t n i n e ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N in e o ’c l o c k w o u ld b e q u i t e a p p r e c i a tiv e
C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d w o u ld t h a t s u i t y o u M r M a z i b u k o ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t w il l s u i t m e C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h a n k y o u a n d I t a k e i t w o u l d s u it y o u r le g a l

team as well, they indicated as such.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir t h e l e g a l te a m i s a l w a y s a v a i la b l e ,
I’ m s u r e , t h e y w il l m a k e a r r a n g e m e n t s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you very much.
ADC PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e y w ill m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts , t h e

C o m m i s s i o n c o m e s f ir s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w e v e r y b o d y is c o o p e r a ti n g w i t h , th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w le t ’s g o b a c k to p a g e 2 0 o f y o u r

w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t a n d w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o p a r a g r a p h 5 5 y o u h a v e a lr e a d y
in f o r m e d t h e C h a ir t h a t t h e r e w a s n o r e s p o n s e w e n o w k n o w t h e r e w a s
n o r e s p o n s e b u t f u n d a m e n t a lly t a k e u s t h r o u g h p a r a g r a p h 5 6 o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n s o th e p r o c e s s th a t I
20

d e s c r ib e d e a r li e r in m y i n tr o d u c t io n t h a t t h e n w h e n th e y n e v e r
responded to us after the letter we have been looking at on 30th
D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 6 a n d n o t ic e d a n o r d e r o f f o r f e i t u r e d e c la r i n g t h e a m o u n t
o f R 1 4 4 7 2 0 7 5 s t a n d in g t o t h e c r e d i t o f H o m i x i n i t s M e r c a n t il e B a n k
a c c o u n t w a s f o r f e i t e d t o t h e S t a t e in t e r m s o f t h e Ex c h a n g e C o n tr o l
R e g u l a ti o n 2 2 B a n d w a s p u b lis h e d in t h e G o v e r n m e n t G a z e tt e , s o t h e

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d a t e o f f o r f e i t u r e is t h e d a t e w h e n i t i s p u b lis h e d i n t h e G o v e r n m e n t
G a z e t te , b e c a u s e o n c e t h e r e ’s a f o r fe i tu r e w h e n t h e m a t t e r is d e a l t w i th
fr o m th e b e g i n n i n g th e p u b l ic w il l n e v e r k n o w t h a t E li j a h M a z ib u k o
a c c o u n t is s u s p ic io u s o r h e is in v o lv e d i n n e f a r io u s a c t iv it i e s , b u t e v e n
h e r e w h e n t h e r e ’s a p u b lic a ti o n i t d o e s n ’ t e v e n s t a t e y o u k n o w y o u r
s in s a s t o w h a t y o u h a v e d o n e , w e j u s t s a y th e a m o u n t f o r t h i s
c o m p a n y, r e g is tr a ti o n n u m b e r o r i f i t’s a p e r s o n E li ja h M a z i b u k o ID
n u m b e r s o a n d s o h is m o n e y h a s b e e n f o r f e i t e d y o u k n o w to th e S t a t e ,
s o p e o p l e w i ll r e a d b e t w e e n t h e l i n e s t o s a y p e o p le c a n ’t j u s t – t h e
10

Government can’t take your money you must have done something.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( l a u g h in g ) j a , o k a y.
A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C :

N o w d o y o u k n o w i f H o m i x o r i ts s o l e

d ir e c t o r e v e r c h a ll e n g e d t h is fo r f e it u r e ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So they have about two years to do

that.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t t h e y ’ v e n e v e r c h a l le n g e d th is

f o r fe i tu r e ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I n m o s t c a s e s , i t i s v e r y r a r e t h a t w e
h a v e b e e n c h a l le n g e d i n th e p a s t , o f t a k in g i t to c o u r t b e c a u s e i t i s
20

w i t h i n th e i r r i g h t , b u t in m o s t c a s e s t h e t y p e o f H o m i x c o m p a n ie s t h a t
r u n a w a y o r i n d iv i d u a l s t h a t r u n a w a y w h e n y o u s a y t o t h e m m a k e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s o t h a t w e c a n ta lk , i n m o s t c a s e s t h e y h a v e r u n t h e y
h a v e ju s t l e f t e v e r y t h i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e y o p t t o r u n a w a y a s t h e C h a ir s a id .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s t h e y j u s t r u n a w a y fr o m

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
R 1 4 m i ll io n , s o s o m e b o d y – R 1 4 m i ll io n is n o t a s m a ll a m o u n t o f m o n e y,
w e c a n s h a r e i t a m o n g s t o u r s e lv e s h e r e , w e w i ll b e v e r y h a p p y fo r t h is
w e e k e n d , i t ’s n o t a s m a l l a m o u n t o f m o n e y b u t i f y o u ’r e g o i n g t o r u n
a w a y fr o m i t h e y t h e r e m u s t b e s o m e t h in g w r o n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l e v e n i f y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e w o r k e d fo r i t y o u

w o u ld s t il l w a n t i t .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w c o u l d y o u p l e a s e s u m m a r is e f o r u s
w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i n p a r a g r a p h 5 7 a n d 5 8 .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s , h e r e – s o in 5 7 i t ta k e s b a c k th e
ty p e o f tr a n s a c t i o n s t h a t H o m ix w e r e d o i n g i n t e r m s o f t h e fl u r r y o f
tr a n s a c ti o n s w it h in a f e w d a y s t o o n ly t w o b e n e fi c i a r ie s a n d a l s o th e
f a ls i fic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t w e f o u n d t h a t a c t u a ll y w a s d r i v i n g
t h e s e a m o u n ts t o th e s e t w o c o m p a n i e s a n d a l s o I t h in k th e b ig g e s t
f a c to r is w h a t w e h a v e ju s t b e e n a ll u d i n g t o i n te r ms o f t o s a y w h e n e v e r
it w a s n o w d is c o v e r e d t h a t t h e s e e n tr i e s h a v e b e e n fa ls i fi e d , th e
a m o u n t is b lo c k e d , w h e n t h e y a r e a s k e d t o m a k e r e p r e s e n ta t io n y o u

20

k n o w a n o r m a l c o m p a n y o r n o r m a l p e r s o n w h e r e th e r e is a l e g i ti m a t e
tr a d e

and

th e r e ’s

a

misunderstanding

w i ll

come

and

make

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o s a y t h is i s a c t u a ll y t h e a c t u a l s i t u a t io n b u t – s o t h e y
a r e in a c ti o n y o u k n o w ty p ic a lly o f t h e b e h a v i o u r t o b e e x p e c t e d fr o m
a n il le g it i m a t e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e a c o m p a n y th a t i s l e g i t w i th a
le g i t i m a te r e g is tr a ti o n n u m b e r, o ffi c e s a n d a l l t h a t , t h e y w ill b e a b l e t o

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
d e a l w i t h th a t , s o t h i s o n e it s e e m s li k e a le t t e r b o x c o m p a n y y e s , t h a t
w a s j u s t u s e d t o a c t u a l ly ta k e m o n e y o u t o f th e c o u n tr y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir w e s h o u l d r e m i n d o u r s e lv e s th a t

t h e s e a r e th e m o n i e s w h i c h t h e o t h e r w i t n e s s e s h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t ,
d ir e c t ly a r i s i n g fr o m t h e t e n d e r s w h ic h a r e a w a r d e d t o Tr a n s n e t a n d
t h e s e a r e t h e m o n i e s t h a t fi n d t h e m s e l v e s i n H o m i x a n d th is i s w h e r e
w e n o w k n o w th a t w h e n p e o p l e h a v e to a c c o u n t t h e y w o u ld r a t h e r r u n
a w a y fr o m a c c o u n ti n g a s t o w h a t w a s t h e l e g i ti m a c y o f t h o s e m o n ie s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
10

I f I n o w c a n j u s t e m p h a s iz e

C h a ir p e r s o n w i t h p a r a g r a p h 5 8 t o s a y p u r s u a n t t o t h e a b o v e a l l
in f o r m a ti o n p r e s e n t e d it i s s u b m it t e d t h a t th e t r a n s a c t io n s o v e r t h e
a c c o u n t s o f H o m ix d is p l a y e d a ll t h e h a l l m a r k s o f a s c h e m e a i m e d a t
d is g u i s i n g th e o r i g i n , th e n a tu r e a n d u l t i m a t e d e s ti n a t i o n o f f u n d s in
o th e r w o r d s a m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g s c h e m e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w i t w a s n o t o n l y H o m ix y o u

k n o w a s a n e n ti ty t h a t w e i n v e s ti g a t e d b u t w h e n y o u lo o k a t th e a c c o u n t
o f H o m ix I t h in k t h a t y o u a ls o l o o k e d a t o t h e r r e l a te d o r a s s o c i a t e d
c o m p a n i e s , a n d y o u ’r e d o i n g t h a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 5 9 , p a g e 2 1 M r C h a ir,
if y o u c a n t e l l u s a b o u t th o s e e n t i ti e s a s w e l l.
20

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u d o s o ju s t a s a m a tt e r o f i n te r e s t w h e n

y o u d is c o v e r a s y o u d id h e r e in r e la t io n t o H o m ix a n d t h is R 1 4 m i ll io n
t h a t t h e r e s e e m s t o h a v e b e e n a p r o b le m , b u t y o u k n o w th a t t h e r e ’s
R 5 1 m i ll io n th a t ’s l e f t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d y o u t h e n i n te r a c t w i t h m a y b e t h e R e s e r v e B a n k
o f t h e j u r i s d ic ti o n w h e r e t h e m o n e y w a s s e n t o r w i t h o t h e r – w i t h L a w
E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s t o s a y t h e y m u s t l o o k a t t h a t m o n e y i n t h a t o th e r
ju r is d i c t i o n o r a l e r t t h e m s o t h a t t h e y c a n m a k e w h a t e v e r d e c is io n s t h e y
m a k e a b o u t w h e th e r th e y w ill l o o k o r t h e y w i ll n o t lo o k .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I m u s t s a y C h a i r p e r s o n w e h a v e n e v e r
d o n e t h a t b e c a u s e t h a t is f a c i li t a te d b e t w e e n th e t w o c o u n t r i e s w h e r e
t h e m o n e y h a s g o n e t h e r e ’s a m u tu a l l e g a l a s s is ta n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

If it doesn’t exist it becomes very

d i ff ic u l t e v e n t o e n g a g e w i th a u t h o r i t ie s o n th e o t h e r s id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t y o u w o u ld – w o u l d y o u a l e r t t h e a u th o r it i e s
w i t h i n th e c o u n tr y w h e th e r i t ’s t h e p o l ic e o r i t ’s t h e M i n i s t e r o f J u s ti c e
o r t h e M i n is t e r o f Fo r e ig n A ff a ir s , t h e a u th o r i t ie s w h o s h o u ld l o o k a t t h e
p o s s i b il it y o f a l e r ti n g o t h e r l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c ie s t o s a y th e r e ’s
s o m e t h i n g s u s p ic i o u s , ju s t h a v e a lo o k a n d f o ll o w u p if y o u a r e
p e r s u a d e d t h a t t h e r e is s o m e th i n g s u s p ic i o u s a s w e ll .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

W e h a v e n e v e r, I t h i n k i t m i g h t b e

b e c a u s e w h e n y o u s ta r t n o w t o l o o k a t p o l ic e a n d o t h e r e n f o r c e m e n t
20

across, because if you look at in terms of how we work because we are
t h e th e n t h e c e n tr a l b a n k a n d s o m e o f t h e – a tr a n s a c t i o n o f t h is n a t u r e
b e c a u s e th e r e ’s q u a l if ic a ti o n o f in f o r m a t io n t h e y g e t g i v e n to th e N PA , I
t h i n k th o s e a r e – t h o s e t h e y c a n b e t h e o n e s t h a t w i ll b e c a u s e e v e n
w i t h th e m u t u a l le g a l a s s i s t a n c e w h e n w e a r e w o r k i n g b e c a u s e I m u s t
s a y t h a t w e h a v e b e e n tr y i n g t o b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s a n d D u b a i tr y i n g t o

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g e t a m u tu a l l e g a l a s s is t a n c e , w h i c h I d o n ’t k n o w h o w f a r it is , b u t th a t
is b e in g w o r k e d o v e r I t h i n k b y t h e N PA s o t h a t – b e c a u s e w e w o r k
w i t h , t h e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e h a v e e s t a b lis h e d t h a t w e c a ll i n te r a g e n c y w o r k i n g g r o u p , t h is i n v o lv e t h e S A P S , t h e N PA , F IC , S A R S ,
w h a t e v e r, s o w e w o r k t o g e t h e r s o t h a t w e c a n s e e a b i g g e r p i c tu r e
b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s li k e t h e o n e s th a t m a y b e w h e n I
c o m e b a c k o n M o n d a y y o u s e e th e m n o w t h e y a r e l o c a l , b u t th e y a r e
n o t – b u t h o w w e l o o k e d a t l o c a l w e s a y w h o fu n d e d H o m i x t o b e a b le
t o d o t h is c r o s s - b o r d e r t r a n s a c t io n , y o u n e e d to s t a r t , b u t fr o m t h e r e i t
10

is n o l o n g e r o u r m a n d a t e , w e a r e j u s t lo o k in g w h o a r e t h e fe e d e r
a c c o u n t s t h a t a r e f e e d i n g i n t o t h i s s o th a t th e m o n e y c a n g o o u t , b u t
lo o k in g in t o t h e a c c o u n t n o w th a t a r e a c t u a l ly m o v i n g w i t h i n t h e c o u n tr y
it w i ll b e t h e F in a n c ia l I n t e l li g e n c e C e n tr e Ac t th a t th e y s h o u l d b e a b l e
t o , b u t I m u s t a d m i t t h a t w e d o n ’ t w r it e o r t o – I t h i n k m a y b e i t m i g h t b e
w e n e e d t o c o l l a b o r a te m o r e a m o n g s t o u r s e l v e s t o s a y w i th o u t m a y b e
t h e m u tu a l – b e c a u s e I w a s to l d th a t t o s a y l o o k y o u w o n ’ t b e
s u c c e s s fu l if t h e r e i s n o m u t u a l le g a l a s s is t a n c e b e tw e e n th e t w o
ju r is d i c t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

H m m , a n d t h e n a f t e r y o u h a v e f o u n d w i th r e g a r d t o

t h is R 1 4 m i ll io n H o m ix o r i ts d ir e c t o r w a s n o t i n te r e s t e d i n m a k i n g
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s I g u e s s

y o u r s u s p i c i o n s a b o u t t h e R 5 1 m i ll io n w o u l d

h a v e b e e n s tr e n g th e n e d , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u d e a l w i th it h e r e b u t
I w o u ld li k e t o k n o w w h e th e r y o u w e n t t o c h e c k w h e t h e r th a t R 5 1 m i lli o n
e v e n t h o u g h i t m a y h a v e – t h e h o r s e h a d b o l t e d – w h e th e r i t w a s a ls o
p r o b le m a t ic a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t ?

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s , i t ’s b e c a u s e th e 1 4 mi ll i o n w a s

blocked because of the 51.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h a t I m e a n is o n th e 1 4 m i lli o n w e n o w k n o w
b a s e d o n w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d a b o u t i t.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e t h is w a s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u c o m p l e te

a n y i n v e s t ig a ti o n

about the

5 1 m i ll io n , o r i t w a s ju s t p ic k in g u p r e d f l a g s a n d t h e n b l o c k i n g t h is o n e .
10

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o h a d w e , if I m a y p u t i t t h is w a y

t h a t – s o w h e n y o u d o a f o r f e i t u r e b a s e d o n e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l
c o n tr a v e n ti o n y o u tr y a n d r e c o u p , s o w e ’r e s a y i n g e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l
c a p i t a l e x p o r t e d ill e g a l ly o u t o f t h e R e p u b lic y o u c a n n o t t a k e m o r e b u t
y o u c a n t a k e t h e e q u iv a le n t a n d l e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I n m o s t c a s e s li k e y o u a ll u d e d t o

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t b e c a u s e m a y b e o u r s y s t e m s a r e n o t th a t e ffi c i e n t b y
t h e ti m e w e b lo c k a n a c c o u n t f o r m a y b e fi v e m il li o n y o u f in d t h a t th e
p e r p e tr a to r h a s t a k e n 2 5 a n d s o th e r e ’s n o m a tc h b e t w e e n t h e t w o , b u t
20

it ’s w h a t th e s a n c t io n w e c a n o n ly p u t t h a t to t h a t p e r s o n t o s a y n o w
y o u h a v e s e e n y o u o f d o i n g t h is , a n d I d o n ’t t h i n k t h e y w i ll d o i t a g a in i f
y o u h a v e t a k e n a p o r t io n o ff a p e r s o n , s o e v e n h e r e w e e n d e d u p ju s t
t a k i n g t h e 1 4 m il li o n a n d t h a t is w h e r e i t e n d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja , o k a y, n o t h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir I s e e t h a t t h e r e ’s n o w a y t h a t i n

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07 JUNE 2019 – DAY 108
t w o m i n u t e s w e c a n b e – d o a n y th in g m e a n in g fu l .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no, no we can’t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y b e w e s h o u ld a d j o u r n t h e n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e a r e g o in g t o a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y, a n d o n

M o n d a y t h e n w e w il l s ta r t a t n in e o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 0 J U N E 2 0 1 9

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