C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N T O S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
BRAAMFONTEIN, JOHANNESBURG

10

07 NOVEMBER 2019

D AY 1 8 8
FINAL

20

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
PROCEEDINGS RESUME ON 7 NOVEMBER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y,
good morning Mr Manyi.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M o r i n g C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d w e a r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. Mr Manyi I would like to pick up on one
other aspect of your previous testimony before the Commission and
10

that relates to the meeting that you had with Minister Chabane about
the transfer to GCIS. Do you recall giving evidence on that?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s I d o .
ADV HOFMEYR:

And you also clarified in your answers to the

Commission some further details about that meeting and I would just
l i k e t o p r o b e s o m e o f t h o s e a b i t f u r t h e r.

As I understood your

testimony of last time was you said you had met a few days prior to the
t r a n s f e r t h a t – w e l l t h e C a b i n e t m e e t i n g o n t h e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y, i s t h a t
right?
MR MANYI: Ja I said within five days I was not sure.
20

ADV HOFMEYR: Indeed.
MR MANYI: Exactly when.
ADV HOFMEYR: And your answers to the Commission clarified that it
might have been the preceding the Friday or it might have been the
p r e c e d i n g M o n d a y. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MANYI:

Ja that is just to try and – because I think you were

Page 2 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
pinning me to a date and I was trying to cooperate with you. But all I
just remember it was within that space.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. W e d o n o t w a n t t o p i n y o u t o a n y t h i n g M r
Manyi so if you cannot recall please indicate that to us. Was – do you
have any certainty as to whether it occurred on a weekend or a week
day?
MR MANYI:

No, no it was definitely – Chair it was definitely a week

d a y.
ADV HOFMEYR: And are you comfortable with saying it was either the
10

Friday preceding the 2nd of February or the Monday preceding the 2nd
of February?
MR MANYI: If it was not that Friday it will definitely be – if it was not
t h a t F r i d a y i t c o u l d e v e n b e a T h u r s d a y f o r t h a t m a t t e r.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
MR MANYI: But it was within that space.
ADV HOFMEYR: Within that sort of space?
MR MANYI: Five/seven days give or take.
ADV HOFMEYR: Understood.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .

20

ADV HOFMEYR:

And do you have any recollection of whether the

meeting took place in the morning or the evening or what time of the
day?
MR MANYI:

No I think it was Chairperson it was around – it was

around elevenish I think ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: In the morning?

Page 3 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. And as I understand your testimony last
t i m e M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e o ff e r e d y o u a c h o i c e o f p o s i t i o n s , i s t h a t
correct?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR: And just to be clear your evidence last time was the
option was to be transferred to GCIS as DG which would have put you
on the same level.

A l t e r n a t i v e l y t o b e C O O i n t h e o ff i c e o f t h e

P r e s i d e n c y. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
10

M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR: Now can I just enquire when you met with him did you
have any discussions with him about the charges against you while you
were at the Department of Labour?
MR MANYI: No Chair that did not come up.
ADV HOFMEYR:

And did you discuss with him the fact that you had

been dismissed from the Department of Labour?
MR MANYI:

I w o u l d h a v e b e e n l y i n g t o h i m i f I h a d s a i d s o C h a i r.

Because at the time – like I said here I am not going to change my
t e s t i m o n y. I h a v e s a i d h e r e r e p e a t e d l y t h a t I w a s n e v e r d i s m i s s e d a n d
20

I note Chair a lot of use of this word in this correspondence
everywhere, this dismissal.

But – and in many instances I think it is

u s e d c o l l o q u i a l l y.
And I have said here yesterday by the way that when Ms
Hofmeyr was probing the issue of December for instance because
supposedly my last day of payment was meant to be end of November

Page 4 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
and then therefore December should have been a dry month for me
because I am dismissed.
So as evidence that there was no such I did say that I got paid
i n D e c e m b e r. I n f a c t n o t o n l y g o t p a i d C h a i r I h a v e g o t m y s t a t e m e n t
h e r e i t l o o k s l i k e I e v e n g o t a 1 3 t h c h e q u e f o r t h a t m a t t e r i n D e c e m b e r.
I h a v e g o t t w o t r a n s a c t i o n s h e r e i n D e c e m b e r. S o t h e i s s u e o f m e e t i n g
Minister Chabane in January having just come back from two payments
how can I consider myself dismissed? It is just irrational.
CHAIRPERSON: In regard to whatever documentation you might have
10

that might support what you say if there is anything you want to hand
up to give to the Commission feel free to do so.
M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: But if maybe there may be confidential things in the
same document and you would prefer not to it is fine. I just wanted you
to know that you may give us a view wish to give us something.
MR MANYI: Thank you Chair I will actually leave this document here.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: Whatever is confidential here was confidential in 2012 so
it is fine.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : A n d a l s o C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MANYI: It is just that honestly here Advocate Hofmeyr is just not
operating in good faith. If she did Chair on the – I would like to Chair
without disrupting your flow of thought Ms Hofmeyr?

Page 5 of 151

If you go to

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
bundle NN5.

If you go to bundle NN5 you will find on page 134.

On

p a g e 1 3 4 , C h a i r y o u w i l l f i n d p a g e 2 o f t h e a ff i d a v i t o f t h e D G o f
L a b o u r. I f y o u g o t o – h a v e y o u g o t i t C h a i r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t .
MR MANYI: Ja if you go to page 10.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MANYI:

That read for the record what the DG of Labour in his

a ff i d a v i t a n d t h i s i s t h e t h i n g C h a i r I w a s s a y i n g a b o u t n o t g e t t i n g g i v e n
documents.
10

This is something I discovered last night because I was

g i v e n t h i s d o c u m e n t ’s d a t e b e c a u s e w e a r e o p e r a t i n g h e r e w i t h p e o p l e
t h a t a r e t r y i n g t o p u t b o o b y t r a p s a l l o v e r.
operating.

This is how she is

Tr y i n g t o b o o b y t r a p s a n d a l l o f t h i s .

This is just not

operating in good faith. But if you look at paragraph 10 Chair it says:
“By the DG of Labour Mr Thobile Lamati he says here.
From the information brought to my attention personal
assistant Bass indicates that salary payments were made
to Mr Mzwanele Manyi for November 2010, December
2 0 1 0 a n d J a n u a r y 2 0 11 . ”
He goes further Chair – he actually puts an annexure.
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: On page 135 – 136 I beg your pardon. On page 136 I do
not even need – have to give you this bank statement because here on
page 136 he gives you a printout.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: It must have been from the Finance system.

Page 6 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: Hm;
MR MANYI: It shows here the 2010 on the 13th there was a salary – if
e v e n s a y s s a l a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: So if – even the DG is saying so.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: But Ms Hofmeyr wants to keep pushing her own narrative
of dismissal. It is just a bit upset.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Well Mr Manyi you may be unfair to Ms Hofmeyr in

regard to what you have said because you remember he – she said
y e s t e r d a y t h a t s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t s h a d n o t e v e n a r r i v e d y e s t e r d a y.
They only – they had not arrived before yesterday they only arrived
y e s t e r d a y.
And as I understand the position she took the earliest
opportunity to make sure that you got copies of whatever she had just
received herself.

So we need to just bear that in mind as well.

But

also you need to remember that she was the one who even before I
said anything who said if there are any documents when – that you
would like more time before you could answer questions on please you
20

should say so.
So as I understand it she never intended that you should be
pushed to give answers to – on documents in regard to which you might
n e e d m o r e t i m e . T h a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t s h e s a i d y e s t e r d a y.
M R M A N Y I : B u t C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.

Page 7 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: Another example. For instance yesterday I make a point
to her about the issue of a dismissal hearing or rather a disciplinary
hearing where I said that 30 minutes into it it was abruptly stopped and
all that.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI:

I say here, sitting here I say I have mentioned it

somewhere and then she interjects or rather responds and she says, no
it is not anywhere in the testimony and everything that you have given
us. But Chair when I went last night and checked my things.
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: Actually if you go to NN2.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: NN2 page 38.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: Just go to that. Page 38 on NN2.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: Paragraph 7.4. Have you got it Chair? It says here.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m n o t a c t u a l l y, n o t l o o k i n g I a m h o p i n g t o j u s t

...(intervenes).
20

MR MANYI: Okay alright.
CHAIRPERSON: That you would read it ja.
MR MANYI: It says here:
“Apart

from

lawyers

meeting

for

discovery

issues

etcetera remember attending only one real DC meeting
which was abandoned hardly 30 minutes after it had

Page 8 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
started.”
This is what I said I had said. And she said it does not exist
anywhere. And this is the document that was given to her last week as
part of my written replies.

N o w t h i s i s w h y I j u s t s a y h e r e C h a i r th a t

she is not operating in good faith. So I ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: I maintain my point.
CHAIRPERSON:

10

Ye s .

She will if she chooses to she will say

something in response.

But let me point out to you that I myself

y e s t e r d a y o p e r a t e d o n t h e b a s i s t h a t f o r e x a m p l e M r M a s e k o ’s e v i d e n c e
p r e v i o u s l y w a s t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t w h e n – o n h i s v e r s i o n t h e f o r m e r
President phoned Mr Chabane about moving Mr Maseko that he was
furious.

But it turned out that Mr Maseko had not said that. At least

from what we said maybe it might have been somebody else or he might
have said that about somebody else or so.
documentation.

So there is a lot of

We are human we can make errors and so on.

So –

but I say Ms Hofmeyr will elect whether she wants to say something in
response.

Ms Hofmeyr you will make your election otherwise we can

proceed.
20

A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I t i s m y h o p e t h a t w e c a n j u s t m o v e
t o t h e f a c t s t o d a y a n d g e t M r M a n y i ’s e v i d e n c e . B u t h e h a s m a d e s o m e
serious accusations and I would like to address them. I will pick up on
the last one first. Chair it is false that what I said in the Commission
yesterday was that Mr Manyi had never made the point that there was a
d i s c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g c o n v e n e d a n d t h a t i t a d j o u r n e d s h o r t l y t h e r e a f t e r.

Page 9 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
I am asking my learned friend to try and get an urgent transcript of
y e s t e r d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s . B u t I c a n w i t h g r e a t c l a r i t y r e m i n d e v e r y o n e
in this room precisely what I said.
W e w e r e i n t h e c o u r s e o f d i s c u s s i n g M r M a n y i ’s p r e v i o u s
testimony and whether in the course of that testimony he had led this
Commission to understand that he was on a period of leave persistently
from the moment he was put on suspension to the time that he was
transferred to GCIS.
He was asked about his previous testimony that he was not
10

ever charged. And it was in that context that Mr Manyi gave evidence
yesterday that he had said somewhere in the previous evidence that
there had been a disciplinary hearing convened that had ended abruptly
t h e r e a f t e r. M y r e s p o n s e t o M r M a n y i w a s t w o f o l d . H e d i d n o t s a y s o i n
his previous testimony before this Commission that occurred in
N o v e m b e r o f l a s t y e a r.
I then went on and said that he had done so – he had made
reference to that in what he had placed before the Commission and that
i s p r e c i s e l y t h e a ff i d a v i t t o w h i c h h e h a s r e f e r r e d u s .

Chair if the

transcript can be obtained it will bear me out. But my response to Mr
20

Manyi is that the suggestion that there is bad faith on my part insofar
as I put to him what are clearly and obvious and patent facts that the
previous testimony did not refer to the disciplinary hearing being
convened and adjourned but that he had made such a disclosure to the
Commission recently as between he and I is now common cause.
The second aspect of the bad faith related to the salary

Page 10 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
payments.

Now in that regard given your invitation to Mr Manyi I

wanted to follow up and say we would very much like to see those bank
records.

So if he can please make them available to us as soon as

possible we will take the tea break as the legal team to have a look at
them.
M r M a n y i h a s h i g h l i g h t e d t h e a ff i d a v i t o f t h e D G M r L a m a t i . I t
was my intention to deal with the salary issue with Mr Manyi in due
c o u r s e a n d d r a w y o u r – C h a i r ’s a t t e n t i o n t o a s e c o n d a ff i d a v i t f r o m a
representative of the Department of Labour which gives greater clarity
10

t o t h e a ff i d a v i t o f t h e D G .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

So if we could be permitted simply to go to the

evidence Chair?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: We can deal with those aspects.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m m . Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Mr Manyi in your testimony yesterday I want to put it
to you that you made four statements that are untrue. And I would like
your comment on them.
20

They relate to a common theme.

So I am

going to list the four of them for you so you have an understanding of
the four false statements that you made to the Commission yesterday
and then we can take each of them in turn for your comment.
The first statement which is false is that you never received
the termination letter from Minister Mdladlana. That is the letter dated
the 29th of October 2010. The second statement that is false is that the

Page 11 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
first time you saw it was on the 18th of October this year when the
Commission gave it to you.
The third statement that is false if that you were never
d i s m i s s e d f r o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r. A n d t h e f o u r t h i s t h a t y o u
remained employed but on leave from the period of your suspension to
the time that you were transferred to GCIS. I would like your comment
on each of those.
CHAIRPERSON:

One second.

One second.

Mr Manyi you may be

needing to record the statements or that you are supposed to comment
10

on and I am wondering whether you have got an exam pad and
whatever you – that you may need to write on.
MR MANYI: No, no I am ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: And you have got your – you are fine?
M R M A N Y I : I a m f i n e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MANYI:

O k a y.

Firstly just as an opening statement.

There is

nothing false that I have said and I want to talk to these issues just
20

n o w. T h a t I n e v e r r e c e i v e d t h e l e t t e r. I n e v e r r e c e i v e d t h e l e t t e r. T h a t
is not false.

I n t h e l e t t e r y e s t e r d a y t h a t M s H o ff m a n – M s H o f m e y r I

beg your pardon in that letter where I was writing to Minister Baloyi
reference to the letter which I say I never received is made in that
l e t t e r.
Now I then last night when I looked at this thing and tried to

Page 12 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
remember what really happened you will see Chair if you look at that
letter you will see the formulation of that letter that that letter was done
u n d e r t h e l e g a l a d v i c e . T h a t l e t t e r.
So a lot of information was coming between myself and my
lawyers who were writing this and all that. And that is how I suspect
that reference came in but whether me Mzwanele Manyi saw the letter it
i s f a c t u a l l y i n c o r r e c t . I n e v e r s a w t h e l e t t e r. S o t h e f a c t t h a t r e f e r e n c e
i s m a d e o n i t d o e s n o t m e a n I s a w t h e l e t t e r. S o t h a t s t a t e m e n t s t a n d s .
And the fact that I saw it for the first time stands. I really saw it for the
10

first time and all that.
When you discuss with the lawyers they make references to
various documents and all of that to say okay they even sometimes
quote case law and I would never say to them, let me read that case
law and see for myself and so on. So when you work with lawyers you
work with people that you really trust. If you cannot trust your lawyer
then I do not know what you must say – you must do – what you must
do.
Now the – then the statement of never dismiss. I think it is – I
a m h a p p y t h a t M s H o f m e y r h a s r a i s e d t h i s m a t t e r. I t h i n k C h a i r p e r s o n

20

just understand how Public Service works.

Perhaps her disadvantage

is that she does not understand perhaps how Public Service works and
does not understand the issue of Section 12 of Public Service Act.
But I can do a quick workshop here. How this works Chair is
that a Minister for all intents and purposes is actually a caretaker for a
D G . A M i n i s t e r i s n o t t h e e m p l o y e r o f a D G a t a n y t i m e , n e v e r e v e r.

Page 13 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
E v e n a s w e s p e a k . A M i n i s t e r i s n o t t h e e m p l o y e r. A M i n i s t e r d o e s n o t
have the power to dismiss a DG. So you can write that I am dismissing
y o u . Yo u c a n d o a l l k i n d s o f t h i n g s a n d p u r p o r t t o h a v e d i s m i s s e d .
The only time the word dismissal, termination really takes
e ff e c t i s r e a l l y r e a l i t i s w h e n y o u h a v e g o t t h e c o n s e n t o f t h e P r e s i d e n t
o r w h e n y o u h a v e g o t t h e d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i t y.

Former Minister

Mdladlana she – he will go into his grave without having fired a DG in
his life because even when he was at the Department of Labour he did
all his antics of dismissing me thinking he is dismissing me and all of
10

that.
When in fact I think it has been pointed out to him left right
and centre that excuse me Minister Mdladlana you do not have the
authority to do this.

So Chairperson for people to do unlawful things

we cannot come to this Commission and give credit to an unlawful
conduct.
What Minister Mdladlana did was unlawful.

It was totally

unlawful. He was actually undermining the Public Service Act. He was
also undermining the powers of the President.
dismiss somebody who is not his employee.
20

He cannot purport to
A DG is – can only be

dismissed with the consent and collaboration of the President or the
delegated authority from the President. So that was the situation.
So
throughout.

the

issue

of

last

point

of

remaining

an

employee

I said here yesterday I have no evidence of having been

dismissed and the reason I said so I said it is because I was getting
paid and this is where the December thing came in to say here is my

Page 14 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
evidence for December that I got paid. So what is this notion that I got
dismissed?
The January one came late. So from where I sit I see this
paperwork here that is part of this file I saw last night.

A lot of

shenanigans unlawful activities were happening in the Department. But
Chairperson let us be very clear here that it can never be factually
correct to say a Minister dismissed you. It does not exist. It is almost
l i k e s a y i n g o i l h a s m i x e d w i t h w a t e r. I t d o e s n o t h a p p e n .

It is

i m p o s s i b l e . Yo u m a y l i k e i t , y o u m a y p u t o i l i n t h e w a t e r i n t h e s a m e
10

b o t t l e a n d s h a k e i t u p i t i s n o t g o i n g t o h a p p e n C h a i r. T h a t i s w h a t i t
is.
S o A d v o c a t e H o ff m a n – H o f m e y r m u s t d i s a b u s e h e r s e l f r e a l l y
of this notion that a Minister can dismiss. There is no such a thing. In
this discussion here – in these documents the term is used I suspect at
a colloquial level. That is where the term is used. It is at a colloquial
level that is what – just so that you do not have a lot of discussion
about all other legalities and so on. It is a quick term to get to fire a
DG.
But strictly speaking and she should know this being a lawyer

20

but strictly speaking when you talk a redetermination of the conditions
of a DG. When you talk about termination of a DG a President must be
involved.

In all these processes of former Minister Mdladlana there

was no involvement of the President in terms of supporting his ill
intentions.
So the dismissal never happened.

Page 15 of 151

There were all kinds of

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
shenanigans around it and things that look like it could be it but this is
why at the end a decision was taken to clean up all the mess that was
happening under the guise of a dismissal which was something that was
u n l a w f u l a n d w e c a n n o t s i t h e r e n o w a n d s a y, s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s
u n l a w f u l a n d s a y, i t i s f a c t u a l l y c o r r e c t t h a t i t h a p p e n e d a n d s o o n w h e n
it was an unlawful shenanigan as it were.
So Chair I maintain my point and I think Advocate Hofmeyr is
just wrong.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y c o n t i n u e M s H o f m e y r.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you so much. Mr Manyi is it your evidence that
your lawyers received the letter from Minister Mdladlana but you did
not?
MR MANYI: Ja Chair I said I have not seen the letter but if I look at my
letter which I did under the advice of the – of my lawyers most
d e f i n i t e l y t h e y w o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d i t . B u t I h a v e n e v e r s e e n t h e l e t t e r.
ADV HOFMEYR: So you would not know what the content of that letter
was?
MR MANYI: The – you see – okay – I would – the content of that letter

20

was about Chair the purported termination of probation.
Chair if you look at it?

In fact we should go to it.

That letter

Excuse me that

l e t t e r. W e s h o u l d g o t o t h a t l e t t e r a n d l o o k a t t h e h e a d i n g o f t h a t l e t t e r.
T h e w o r d , d i s m i s s a l d o e s n o t a p p e a r i n t h a t l e t t e r. T h e w o r d ,
d i s m i s s a l d o e s n o t a p p e a r.

Surely if – and by the way when Ms

Hofmeyr refers to this letter she loosely refers to it as a dismissal or

Page 16 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
termination letter and so on. But the fact of the matter that letter was
discussing Ministers – former Ministers view that this probation she is
not going to confirm it and all that.
But that is just one part of the puzzle Chairperson.

It is not

the complete story because he has got no final say and all that.

He

h a s g o t n o f i n a l s a y o n t h e m a t t e r. A n d e v e n t h e t h i n g t h a t r a i s e s i n
that letter he raises issues of conduct and this and that. He makes his
issues because probation issues generally are performance related
issues.
She always just makes issues up and all of that. This is why I

10

t h i n k m a y b e m y l a w y e r s n e v e r s h o w e d i t t o m e o r s a w – o f w h a t e v e r.
They just dealt with the substance of it as they were giving me advice
and as I was writing to Minister Baloyi.

Because Minister Baloyi had

s a i d t h a t i f I d e a l w i t h h i m h e d o e s n o t l i k e t o d e a l w i t h l a w y e r s . Yo u
know so I would deal with him ja like that.

But I would get advice

behind the scenes but just deal with him as opposed to him receiving
letters with letterheads from the lawyers and so on and that strong
language.
S o h e j u s t w a s a v e r y p e r s o n – v e r y f r i e n d l y p e r s o n g e n e r a l l y.
20

So he did not like fights. So ja so that is my position.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r t h a t w a s a l o n g a n s w e r. I t w a s n o t a n a n s w e r
to my question. My question is Mr Manyi did you see the content of the
letter?
MR MANYI: No.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

Let us go to what you wrote about the

Page 17 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
letter to Minister Baloyi on the 15th of November 2010. Chair you will
find that at NN5 at page 290.
MR MANYI: Can I interject Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
MR MANYI: Can I interject?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:

I interject because I think we talking cross purposes.

make reference to the fact that I did that letter under advice.

I

And I

said earlier that most probably my lawyers got the letter because they
10

even have the date and because we doing this thing under advice and
some of the input came from them. So there would have been – I have
s i g n e d t h e l e t t e r. I a m n o t r u n n i n g a w a y f r o m t h a t . I h a v e s i g n e d t h e
l e t t e r a n d I t a k e f u l l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r s i g n i n g t h e l e t t e r.

But the

content of the letter even if she wants to quote paragraphs where I
w o u l d h a v e q u o t e d t h a t l e t t e r.

But I am saying I did this under legal

advice so some of the input it is almost like if he was to go to that
letter and find the case law which I would have said I have never read
that case and so on. But if I am working under advice and they say
quote case law so and so I would quote that case law in that letter and
20

s i g n t h a t l e t t e r. B u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t I r e a d t h e l e t t e r. I t d o e s n o t
mean that I read that case law as it were. So I think the exercise she
is doing now is exercise in futility Chairperson.

Because she is just

going to mention something that is in the letter and say you see – and I
keep saying I did this under this the advice of the lawyers. So
...(intervenes).

Page 18 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o – t h a t i s f i n e M r M a n y i l e t u s w a i t f o r h e r

further questions and then you can respond. What is the page again?
ADV HOFMEYR: It is in Exhibit NN5 page 290.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M r M a n y i b e f o r e w e g o t o t h i s l e t t e r
there are a number of letters that your lawyers wrote.

Did you give

them instructions on those letters?
CHAIRPERSON:

Well maybe you might wish to use another word

rather than instruction because that is very legal. So ...(intervenes).
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s i t i s v e r y l e g a l i t i s j u s t M r M a n y i h a s b e e n

educating us about the law for a large portion of this morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: So I thought his familiarity with the law might include
an understanding of instructions.

B u t l e t m e b e c l e a r.

When your

lawyers write letters on your behalf are you telling them the facts that
are relevant to put in those letters?
MR MANYI: Chair in the – in there is a yes and something else for that
a n s w e r.
CHAIRPERSON: A yes and a no?
20

M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Or qualified yes?
MR MANYI: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MR MANYI:

A qualified yes.

Ye s , b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h o s e t h a t h a v e

briefed lawyers will know that is always a discussion point that no, no,

Page 19 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
no.

I hear what you mean, but if you say that these are the

i m p l i c a t i o n s . D o n o t s a y i t t h i s w a y. S a y i t t h i s w a y. S o t h a t k i n d o f a
thing happens when you brief lawyers.
S o t h e y g e t t h e s e n s e o f w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y, b u t t h e y
a s s i s t y o u t o a r r i v e a t w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y. S o m e t i m e s t h e y u s e t h e i r
own formulation which you must still approve and all of that. They use
their own formulation and so on, but so therefore the fact that you
instruct lawyers cannot be interpreted to mean that they are just a
conveyor belt.
10

CHAIRPERSON: So basically I think your answer is generally speaking
they would get the facts from the client?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But how they formulate the letter – a letter on behalf
of a client might be their own choice of words and formulation, but in
the end the client needs to be happy?
MR MANYI:

They

sometimes

help

you

even

with

the

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : To s u p p o r t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M A N Y I : To s a y o k a y i f y o u s a y t h i s y o u h a v e t o a d d t h i s f a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: If you say this you must add this fact ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M R M A N Y I : A n d a l l o f t h a t . Yo u s t i l l s i g n o ff . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

Page 20 of 151

facts

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: But it is a teamwork ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R M A N Y I : To a r r i v e a t a p a r t i c u l a r p o s i t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w i l l p i c k u p o n t h a t p o i n t w h e n w e g o t o t h e l a w y e r ’s
letters. Let us go to the letter at NN5 290. Mr Manyi you confirm this
is a letter you wrote to Minister Baloyi on the 15th of November 2010?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r. C o r r e c t .
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

I would like to pick up a few aspects of it that bear

relevance to the testimony you have given. At paragraph 1.4 on page
290 you say in that letter:
“On the 13th of July 2010 more than five weeks after my
precautionary suspension he …”
That is reference to Minister Mdladlana.
“…then presented me with 12 charges.”
Do you see that?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 y o u h a d n o d i ff i c u l t y u n d e r s t a n d i n g
20

that what you had been presented with were 12 charges.

Is that

correct?
MR MANYI: I beg your pardon.
ADV HOFMEYR: When you wrote this letter in November 2010 you had
n o d i ff i c u l t y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t w h a t y o u h a d b e e n p r e s e n t e d w i t h b y
Mr Mdladlana were 12 charges. Correct?

Page 21 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI:

Not correct.

I p u t 1 2 c h a r g e s h e r e C h a i r, b u t t h e

u n d e r s t a n d i n g – I p u t 1 2 c h a r g e s h e r e . Ye s , b u t t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t
I articulated yesterday carries.

I probably was generous in saying 12

charges. I probably should have 12 allegations and so on, but ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: If you go over the page to page 291. At the bottom of
t h a t p a g e i s p a r a g r a p h 1 . 11 . I n t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u s t a t e t h e f o l l o w i n g :
“A couple of days later on the 30th of October 2010…”
C h a i r j u s t t o o r i e n t a t e u s i n t h e l e t t e r.

There has been a

reference previously to the hearing that was convened on the 28th
10

o f O c t o b e r. Yo u w i l l r e c a l l t h a t M i n i s t e r M d l a d l a n a ’s l e t t e r i s d a t e d t h e
29th of October and here Mr Manyi and I quote:
“…is

talking

about

what

happened

on

the

30th

o f O c t o b e r. ”
He writes as follows:
“A couple of days later on the 30th of October 2010 my
attorneys received a letter dated 29th of October 2010
from the former Minister of Labour wherein he added
brand new allegations of administrative nature and more
importantly he alleged that there was mistrust and that
20

h e i s n o w t e r m i n a t i n g t h e p r o b a t i o n w i t h e ff e c t f r o m t h e
30th of November 2010.”
So

indeed

the

M i n i s t e r ’s

lawyers

was

termination
being

announcement

formally

confirmed

by

the

former

by

the

former

M i n i s t e r ’s l e t t e r a n d t h u s a g a i n a b a n d o n m e n t o f c h a r g e s w a s f o r m a l l y
confirmed.

Mr Manyi in this paragraph you talk about what was

Page 22 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
c o n t a i n e d i n t h e l e t t e r.

Do you still maintain that you never saw that

letter?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I c o n f i r m t h a t I n e v e r s a w t h a t l e t t e r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

So when your attorneys gave your response to the

letter when they wrote to the new Minister of Labour on the 3rd
of November did they make up that response?
MR MANYI: I do not understand why you are saying that.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Well because you are telling this Commission that

you never saw a letter and there is a letter from your attorneys dated
10

the 3rd of November 2010 in which they communicate to the new
Minister of Labour Minister Oliphant your response to the letter of
Minister Mdladlana. Is your evidence before this Commission that they
made up that response?
MR MANYI:

Ja.

happens here.

Yo u s e e C h a i r p e r s o n .

This is the kind of thing that

I did say here that this letter that I wrote to

Minister Oliphant – to Minister Baloyi. I read that – I wrote that letter
under advice. I said this here and I did give the – I did say something
t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t t h e l a w y e r s w o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d t h i s l e t t e r a n d t h e y
were referring to that content and I did make an example.
20

One second. I must repeat this. That if – even if they were
t o q u o t e c a s e l a w a n d s o o n I w o u l d w r i t e t h a t c a s e l a w. E v e n t h o u g h I
have not read the case law itself and if there is any content or any part
o f t h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e g i v e n m e f r o m p a r t i c u l a r c a s e l a w.

I would

write that paragraph and all that.
Yo u s e e i f I w a s w r i t i n g – i f t h i s i s j u s t a l e t t e r. I f i t w a s a n

Page 23 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
a ff i d a v i t C h a i r p e r s o n t h e r e i s s o m e w o r d i n g t h a t i s u s u a l l y p u t t h e r e .
That – to cover these kinds of things.

That we will do it under legal

thing. There is a ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Legal advice.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . T h a t i s l e g a l a d v i c e . Yo u – n o r m a l l y d o n e , b u t t h i s i s
a l e t t e r. S o t h e r e w a s n o t t h a t k i n d o f w o r d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: I should have – I would have put it ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
10

M R M A N Y I : I f t h i s w a s a n a ff i d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI:

Now she then takes the input which the lawyers make to

Minister Oliphant ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI:

Or to Ms Oliphant and they quote I suspect.

I have not

read ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Manyi. I am going to interrupt you. I
think it will be better if we go to that letter ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: Ja.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O n w h i c h M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t i o n i s b a s e d b e f o r e y o u
c a n a n s w e r.
M R M A N Y I : O k a y. W h e r e i s t h a t l e t t e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s h a v e a l o o k a t t h a t l e t t e r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

C e r t a i n l y C h a i r.

The letter commences in the same

bundle NN5 at page 297.

Page 24 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON:

And then Ms Hofmeyr there is a particular part

...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of the letter that is important for your question.
ADV HOFMEYR: Indeed.
CHAIRPERSON: Then maybe you can draw attention to that part and
then ...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e . I w i l l g o t h e r e i n a m o m e n t i f I m a y C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV HOFMEYR:
of November 2010.
Minister Oliphant

It is a letter of five pages.

It is dated the 3rd

Yo u s e e t h a t o n i t s f i r s t p a g e . A d d r e s s e d t o f i r s t
and

them

Minister

Baloyi

and

the

paragraph

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: By the attorneys for – representing Mr Manyi.
ADV HOFMEYR: Indeed.
CHAIRPERSON: Langa Attorneys.
ADV HOFMEYR: Langa Attorneys ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR: And the paragraph I am particularly interested in that
20

g i v e s M r M a n y i ’s r e s p o n s e t o t h e l e t t e r o f t h e 2 9 t h o f O c t o b e r i s a t p a g e
300 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: And it is at paragraph 6.1 in that paragraph and it is
the last sentence of that paragraph, but just to read in there what the
l a w y e r s a r e r e c o r d i n g i s a l e g a l p o i n t i n i t i a l l y.

Page 25 of 151

Legally it is not

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
competent for the former Minister in terms of the Public Service
Amendment Act to purport – to alter the term and – to alter or terminate
t h e D G ’s e m p l o y m e n t o n t h e b a s i s o f a n a l l e g e d b r e a k d o w n o f t r u s t .
A s t h e D G ’s e m p l o y m e n t c o n t r a c t r e g u l a t e s t e r m i n a t i o n o r
alteration of the conditions of service and needless to say that the
allegation of breakdown of trust is not recognised as a ground that is
c o m p e t e n t f o r u n i l a t e r a l t e r m i n a t i o n o f t h e D G ’s t h r e e - y e a r c o n t r a c t
with the Department. That is the lead into the sentence that places on
r e c o r d M r M a n y i ’s r e s p o n s e t o t h e l e t t e r. T h e l a w y e r s g o a n d w r i t e a n d
10

I quote:
“We further place it on record that Mr Manyi is presently
s u r p r i s e d a t t h e f o r m e r M i n i s t e r ’s a l l e g a t i o n o f t h e
alleged breakdown of trust as Mr Manyi remains indebted
a n d r e s p e c t f u l t o t h e f o r m e r M i n i s t e r.

With respect

these allegations have since become academic.”
C h a i r, I r e l y o n t h a t s t a t e m e n t i n t h i s l e t t e r f o r p u t t i n g t h e
question to Mr Manyi as to whether when this response of his to the
letter of Mr Mdladlana if placed in a letter by his lawyers.

It is his

evidence that they made up this response.
20

MR MANYI:

I t h i n k t h a t q u e s t i o n i s i r r a t i o n a l C h a i r, b e c a u s e t h e

lawyers would have read that letter from former Minister Mdladlana
which talks about that mistrust.

So when they quote it here.

They

quote from what they have read themselves.
T h e y d o n o t s a y h e r e t h a t I s a i d I s a i d I r e a d t h e l e t t e r. T h e y
do not say I said I read the letter and all of that and I think in the

Page 26 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
i s s u e s o f m i s t r u s t a n d w h a t e v e r. I t i s p r o b a b l y – I t h i n k i t – i t w i l l a l s o
– I suspect it will be somewhere in the list of allegations that the
Minister would have put on me and all of that.
So it was something that was common.

This is why I have

always said that the issue that we had when I first responded to the
Chair about what happened at the Department of Labour the first time I
was answering this question. I said we had a fallout. That is exactly
what happened. We had a fallout.
That is what this is here. So for - so for Advocate Hofmeyr to
10

import her own understanding that this means I read the letter is totally
incorrect.
CHAIRPERSON:

Let me just ask this.

Yo u c e r t a i n l y h a v e s a i d y o u

never saw the letter ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n t i l O c t o b e r t h i s y e a r. T h a t i s o n e p o i n t . S e c o n d l y,
you did concede that your attorneys did receive it or would have
received it I think. They were important.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

So I think we can work on the basis that they

received it.
MR MANYI: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: I do not know if they responded to it. Can we take it
that they – even though you might not have received the letter yourself
at the time that your attorneys informed you what the contents of the
letter were?

Page 27 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: Either by reading it to you maybe over the phone or
by not reading it to you, but just telling you this is what the letter says.
Is that what happened or what is the position?
MR MANYI: I do not remember Chair as to at which point – in fact I do
not remember a point where we discussed the letter ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e t t e r.
M R M A N Y I : S p e c i f i c a l l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR MANYI: Except when I was writing a letter to Minister Baloyi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: That when we were making inputs ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:

Because there has been – lawyers correspond with each

other regularly ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: And so on. So sometimes it is not even possible to keep
track.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
20

MR MANYI: So when they made reference to that letter and so on. It
was amongst many correspondence that they make reference to
g e n e r a l l y.
s a y.

I m e a n I s e e t h a t i t i s a l m o s t l i k e a l a w y e r ’s a p p r o a c h t o

On your letter dated this is – they do this all the time.

So you

never know which letter even they refer to. So I never ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: So ...(intervenes).

Page 28 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: Made the connection.
CHAIRPERSON: So your answer is you have no recollection that you
and your lawyers had a specific discussion of the contents of the
c o n t e n t s o f t h e l e t t e r, b u t i t m a y h a v e b e e n o r s o m e p o i n t s o f i t m a y
have been discussed in the midst of ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. T h a t i s a p r o p e r f o r m u l a t i o n C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . M s H o f m e y r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

So when your attorneys recorded that you were

p l e a s a n t l y s u r p r i s e d b y t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e l e t t e r. W e r e t h e y a c c u r a t e l y
10

conveying your reaction to it?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

I would then like to go back to the letter you wrote

M r M a n y i , b e c a u s e y o u h a v e t o l d u s a b i t a b o u t t h i s l e t t e r. I t i s t h e o n e
Chair at NN5 page 290.

Yo u h a v e s a i d t h a t t h i s i s a l e t t e r t h a t t h e

lawyers had involvement in. Is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: That is the one to Minister Baloyi?
ADV HOFMEYR: Baloyi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H O F M E Y R : D a t e d t h e 1 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u s a i d y o u r l a w y e r s m a d e i n p u t o n t h i s l e t t e r.

that correct?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

Page 29 of 151

Is

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u a l s o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Can you repeat the page?
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s C h a i r. I t i s 2 9 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u h a v e a l s o m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e f a c t t h a t w h e n

your lawyers would discuss case law with you.

Yo u w o u l d s o m e t i m e s

put that into letters without yourself going to verify it. Is that correct?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR: I do not read any case law references in this letter of
10

the 15th of November 2010. Am I right in that reading?
MR MANYI:

No.

Yo u a r e r i g h t C h a i r, b u t I w a s m a k i n g a n e x a m p l e .

That if they were to quote case law and whatever they would reference
i n t h a t c a s e l a w.
example.
Now

I would take their word for it.

That was just an

Yo u s e e t h i s i s t h e t h i n g a b o u t n o t o p e r a t i n g i n g o o d f a i t h .

M s H o ff m a n

–

Ms Hofmeyr

is

really

hell-bent

on

trying

to

weaponize everything that she could find.
I honestly – Chair do not feel that this discussion is in good
faith. She is now – it is almost a win and lose situation here. She is
here to just try and just win this battle and all who are here in this
20

Commission is to give the truth and we are sitting here now wasting
t i m e o n a n u n l a w f u l l e t t e r. T h i s l e t t e r i s u n l a w f u l .
We are busy splitting hairs, but this letter is unlawful bottomline. Why are we splitting hairs on something that is unlawful? Why we
are wasting time on this?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s M r M a n y i y o u h a v e m a d e y o u r p o i n t . I h a v e

Page 30 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
heard your point, but let us may – let us have some progress.
M s H o f m e y r.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. I understand you would not rely on your
a t t o r n e y ’s a d v i c e f o r f a c t s i n a l e t t e r. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A N Y I : Yo u s e e s h e i s s p i n n i n g a g a i n . S p i n n i n g a g a i n . W h e n d i d
I say that?

W h y d o y o u n o t j u s t m a k e y o u r p o i n t M s H o ff m a n –

Hofmeyr?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manyi it will help if you just respond. So she can
– you know when counsel is asking questions. She knows what she is
10

probing and sometimes that might not be apparent to the witness, but
she knows what she is probing.

Let us give her a chance to

…(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : B u t s h e m u s t n o t a s k a w r o n g l e a d i n g q u e s t i o n C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI:

This is a loaded question, because she wants to make a

particular nefarious point.
CHAIRPERSON: Well wait for it. Wait for the nefarious point and deal
with it when she makes it. Thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR: The point of the letter that I would next like to go to
20

is at page 293.

Chair and just for the record I do not have it that

Mr Manyi has answered my question about whether he relied on his
lawyers for facts, but I am happy to move on and come back to it if
n e c e s s a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

At page 293 paragraph 3.4.

Page 31 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
Mr Manyi you write there:
“I contend that there is no prescript that allows the
former Minister to fire me the way he did.”
Do you see that?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I d o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u a c c e p t i t t h e n w h e n y o u w r o t e t h i s l e t t e r d i d y o u
not that you had been fired?
MR MANYI:
fired,
10

No.

because

It is because – I did not accept that I had – I was
the

word

fire/dismissed

cannot

be

executed

in

completion without the involvement of the President. The only time a
Minister can purport to have succeeded in this mission Chair is if the
President is involved. So without the involvement of the President this
is just somebody ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h e – a s I r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h i n y o u r l e t t e r.

The point you are making there is that the Minister had no authority to
fire you.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Had no power to fire you.
M R M A N Y I : E x a c t l y C h a i r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR: Chair ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: I am going to move on to the questions with Mr Manyi
and I am really seeking your guidance on this.

Mr Manyi has made a

number of legal submissions about how can fire and who cannot fire.

Page 32 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

It is not my intention to engage in a legal debate

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

With a witness who does not hold himself out

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V H O F M E Y R : To b e a p e r s o n w i t h l e g a l t r a i n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
10

ADV HOFMEYR: Can I just clarify Mr Manyi, because I got into a little
b i t o f t r o u b l e o n t h i s y e s t e r d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: Do you have legal training?
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M R M A N Y I : N o C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

So it is not my intention to debate the

law ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
20

ADV HOFMEYR: But Chair it is fairly important ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: If I could just take one or two moments in relation to
the applicable legislative regime, because not only has Mr Manyi today
made numerous submissions about the legal position.
a ff i d a v i t t o t h i s C o m m i s s i o n p u t u p a j u d g m e n t .

Page 33 of 151

He also in his

The judgment in the

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
Apleni case which dealt with a decision to suspend the DG of the
D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a i r s .
So he has sought to make reference to law and it is quite
important at this point that I make submissions to you Chair about our
understanding of the legal regime. Simply so that we can have that as
a backdrop to the further questions.

I am in your hands if I may be

permitted to do so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u c a n m a k e t h e s e – t h o s e p o i n t s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you so much. For that purpose we need to go
10

to the Public Service Act and you will find that in the legislation bundle.
It commences at page 28 and Chair the relevant section commences at
page 41 and that is Section 12 of the Public Service Act.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d w e s h o u l d g o t o p a g e 2 8 .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Apologies.

For the commencement and then I am

interested in page 41 which is the – contains Section 12.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Chair there are a few points to make about Section 12
and then I need to make some points about Section 13. In broad terms
Chair Section 12.1 is the section that deals with the appointment of
20

Heads of Department amongst others and 12.1 makes it clear that:
“Notwithstanding anything contrary contained in this Act,
but subject to certain sections that are not pertinent
n o w. T h e a p p o i n t m e n t a n d o t h e r c a r e e r i n c i d e n t s o f t h e
Heads of Department and Government components shall
be dealt with in the case of a) a Head of a National

Page 34 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
Department or National Government Component by the
President.”
Chair that is the section that the Apleni case was concerned
with.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

It is also the section that I understand Mr Manyi to

have been made – been making reference to ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

I n h i s p r e v i o u s t e s t i m o n y.

So what is clear in that

section is the appointment and other career incidents of Heads of
Department and that is a term that is used to denote a DirectorsGeneral must be done by the President. The section that actually was
u s e d t o a ff e c t t h e t r a n s f e r o f M r M a s e k o a n d M r M a n y i i s 1 2 . 3 .

I just

r e f e r e n c e d t h a t n o w. 1 2 . 3 i n d i c a t e s t h a t :
“The President may transfer the head of a National
Department or National Government Component before
or at the expiry of his term or extended term.”
And it goes on to talk about they must perform similar functions
on an equal, higher or lower grading. Chair you will recall we looked at
20

that yesterday with Mr Maseko ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: And then we looked at the requirements for it. One of
which is consent and the other of which is public or alternative is public
interest, but what the judgment in Apleni held was that because the
appointment and career incidents is a power given to the President.

Page 35 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
The decision to place on suspension is a career incident.
It is not a power that had been delegated by the President and
so when the Minister acted in the Apleni case without the President she
w a s f o u n d t o h a v e a c t e d u n l a w f u l l y. S e c t i o n 1 3 o f t h e A c t t h o u g h C h a i r
deals

with

appointment

on

probation.

Mr Manyi

was

originally

appointed to the Department of Labour on probation.
T h e r e i s a l e t t e r t o t h a t e ff e c t .

I do not expect Mr Manyi will

dispute that, but we can have his answer in a moment. I would just like
t o f i n i s h t h e l a w p o i n t . Yo u w i l l s e e S e c t i o n 1 3 o f t h e A c t s a y s :
10

“If so required by regulation an Executive Authority shall
appoint an employee on probation for such period as
maybe

prescribed

for

the

relevant

category

of

employees.”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g y. W e a r e a t p a g e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : 4 2 C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o .
ADV HOFMEYR: Apologies.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e I – b e c a u s e o f w h e r e S e c t i o n 1 2 i s

...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: On the page – on which it starts. I expected 13 to be
at the top of the next page ...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR: Apologies.

Page 36 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: But it is not there.
ADV HOFMEYR: No. It is a lengthy 12 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: So there is 12A.
ADV HOFMEYR:

And

then

it

is

interspersed

with

the

12A

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o w I . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV HOFMEYR: And now we are down at the bottom of page 42.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR: Apologies.
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

So what that section deals with is now appointment

on probation. It says:
“If so required by regulation an Executive Authority shall
appoint an employee on probation for such period as
maybe

prescribed

or

the

relevant

category

of

employees.”
And at two:
“After

the

completion

of

a

probationary

period

contemplated in subsection 1 an Executive Authority
20

shall confirm the probationary period if the employee
concerned has …”
And then there are two requirements.
“…perform

satisfactorily

and

complied

with

all

the

conditions to which his or her appointment was subject.”
C h a i r, t h e E x e c u t i v e A u t h o r i t y r e f e r r e d t o i n t h a t s e c t i o n i s t h e

Page 37 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
M i n i s t e r.

Not the President.

judgment.

That is also confirmed in the Apleni

Albeit not referencing 13 but referencing the reference to

Executive Authority in the Act. That means Chair the sum total of my
legal submissions is that the decision to place Mr Manyi on probation to
determine whether to confirm the probation and keep him in the
employment of the Department of Labour or not is a decision that is
given under the Public Service Act to the Minister and not the
President.
I n t h a t r e s p e c t i t i s d i ff e r e n t t o t h e p o w e r s e x e r c i s e d u n d e r
10

Section 12. It is distinguishable from the Apleni judgment and I make
those submissions simply so that we do not need to continue with an
asserted legal debate by Mr Manyi about the patent unlawfulness of a
decision by Minister Mdladlana not to confirm his probation which is
what he did in the letter of the 29th of October 2010.
There is no use in my view subject to your direction Chair
having a legal debate with Mr Manyi ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

But the course of the evidence I submit should not

take course ...(intervenes).
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: On the assumed common course basis ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

That

there

was

something

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.

Page 38 of 151

unlawful

in

what

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR: Minister Mdladlana did.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you did not refer to subsection 3 of Section 13.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that you should also have referred to
it. Do you want to ...(intervenes)?
A D V H O F M E Y R : O h . I n d e e d . A p o l o g i e s C h a i r. I d i d o m i t i t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: Three says:
“If the probationary appointment is not confirmed in two 10

in terms of subsection 2 – the Executive Authority may
extend the period of the probation or dismiss the
employee in accordance with the Labour Relations Act.”
Ye s C h a i r.

I was about to complete my submissions probably

without referring to the most important subsection.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: So ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: I do apologise for that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

The nub of the point though Chair is that the legal

terrain as identified in this Act and as we read it does not make it the
case that a decision on probation whether to confirm, extend it or are
not extending it dismiss an employee is a decision that lies only with
the President, but then if we can just – return to the facts to which
Mr Manyi can …(intervenes).

Page 39 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: Can I respond to this quickly Chair?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I f y o u w i s h t o .
MR MANYI:

Ja.

First point I want to make is that Advocate Hofmeyr

has just – has just misguided herself on her articulations. Both her and
former Minister Mdladlana are both incorrect.

In the same Public

Service Act that she has given us Chair this is why it is important to
r e a d t h i s t h i n g p r o p e r l y.

This is the – talking about appointment on

probation and it is said:
“If so required … upon …”
10

We are talking about of an employee.

Now what she should

have then done is go to page 30 of the same bundle – same everything.
On page 30 and look at the definition of an employee and know who
was it that we are talking about. When you say an employee and I am
going to read it here Chair for the record.
“An employee means a person contemplated in Section 8
but excludes a person appointed in terms of Section
12A.”
Now 12A is Heads of Departments which is what the Apleni thing
is about which is what we are about. I was a Head of Department and
20

this is – this thing here talks to employees not Head of Departments.
T h i s i s v e r y c l e a r.

S o b o t h M i n i s t e r M d l a d l a n a a n d A d v o c a t e H o ff m a n

have just not understood Public Service Act.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: Her interpretation is totally wrong.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.

Page 40 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
M R M A N Y I : To t a l l y w r o n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s H o f m e y r.

Of course this is a debate that can

h a p p e n l a t e r, b u t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o s a y a n y t h i n g ?
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi refers to 12A.

That is not Section 12

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

In terms of which the appointment of Heads of

Department take place.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: It is the appointment of persons and grounds of policy
considerations.

Insofar as Executive Authorities as Cabinet may

determine to appoint one or more persons under a contract whether
f u l l t i m e o r p a r t - t i m e c a p a c i t y. I t i s o n t h a t b a s i s t h a t w e s u b m i t i t i s n o t
excluded by the definition that appointments under Section 12 would
i n c l u d e e m p l o y e e s b u t C h a i r i t ’s n o t – I a g r e e a u s e f u l p l a c e f o r M r
M a n y i a n d I d o d e b a t e t h e l a w. O u r s u b m i s s i o n i s t h a t t h e e m p l o y e e s
under Section 13 is broad enough to include those appointed under
20

Section 12 albeit that the reference is to Section 8 employees, it
doesn’t exclude as it does under Section 12A other employees and so
an interpretation consistent with the Act must be given but Chairperson
my proposal at this point is not to detain us with the law further we can
make those submissions in due course and no doubt Mr Manyi will have
an opportunity to do so.

The factual point of the matter is the

Page 41 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
f o l l o w i n g , I u n d e r s t a n d M r M a n y i ’s a n s w e r s t o b e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e t h a t w h e n I s a y, M r M a n y i t h a t t h e l e g a l

i s s u e s c a n b e d e a l t w i t h l a t e r, I d o n ’ t m e a n y o u m a y n o t , w h e n y o u g i v e
your answers refer to what you understood to be the legal position of
what you understand to be the legal position which informed your –
which informs whatever you say or which may have informed whatever
decisions you may have taken so I’m not preventing you from
articulating those, okay thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a i r, i f w e t h e n r e t u r n t o t h e f a c t u a l

position Mr Manyi, we were dealing with the reference you made at
page 293 of Exhibit NN5 to the fact that the Minister had fired you and I
understood your answer to be an unlawful firing is no firing at all, is
that a fair summary?
MR MANYI:

Ye s t h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

As a matter of fact do you accept that you were fired

irrespective of whether that was a legally valid or invalid decision?
MR MANYI:

T h a t ’s y o u r i m p o r t a t i o n .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:
20

I beg your pardon?

T h a t i s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d i t ’s y o u r o p i n i o n , I n o t e

your opinion.
ADV HOFMEYR:

No I was asking for your understanding, I want to

separate the question of whether the decision was lawful or unlawful,
again Chair I don’t want to get into a legal debate but decisions taken
pursuant to exercises of public power particularly under legislation
exist, in fact and may indeed be valid and binding until set aside by a

Page 42 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
C o u r t . S o i t ’s n o t m y i n t e n t i o n t o g e t i n t o t h a t d e b a t e w i t h M r M a n y i I
want to understand what Mr Manyi understood the factual position to be
and the questions is …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t ’s p u t t h e q u e s t i o n a l i t t l e d i ff e r e n t l y. D o

you accept that Minister Mdladlana made a decision, I think I’m going
to use what you – your wording, made a decision to fire you.
Irrespective of what you think of that from his side do you accept that
h e m a d e s u c h a d e c i s i o n o r d o y o u s a y, n o h e m a d e n o s u c h d e c i s i o n ?
A n d I l e a v e r o o m f o r t h e f a c t t h a t y o u m i g h t s a y, I d o n ’ t r e c o g n i s e t h a t
10

d e c i s i o n a s v a l i d l e g a l l y b u t a s f a r a s h e ’s c o n c e r n e d – i t ’s y o u r
u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t a s f a r a s h e ’s c o n c e r n e d h e m a d e a d e c i s i o n t o f i r e
you.
MR MANYI:

Ye s , y e s C h a i r I t h i n k I c a n e v e n b a c k t h a t u p b e c a u s e

e v e n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t h e m a k e s b e c a u s e h e t h o u g h t t h a t h e ’s
g o t a f i n a l s a y o n t h e m a t t e r.

On his letter he says, if I’m not happy

with his decision I must take the matter up with Public Service
B a r g a i n i n g C o u n c i l w h i c h i s a n o u t s i d e b o d y.

So in his mind,

incorrectly so, he thought he had me fired.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

O k a y.
And Mr Manyi you knew then at the end of October

2010 that he had taken a decision to fire you?
MR MANYI:

Not – look not to confirm the probation that is what I

k n o w.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Despite your evidence previously that you did not

have any knowledge?

Page 43 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI:

I never said I never had any knowledge, I said I never

s a w t h e l e t t e r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi if we can then go – Chair at this point I’d

l i k e t o g o t o t h e q u e s t i o n o f M r M a n y i ’s s a l a r y a n d i t s p a y m e n t .

For

that purpose, we’d like to see the documents that Mr Manyi has
brought. We’re just before the tea break, may I suggest that we take a
slightly earlier adjournment so that we can look at those documents?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e c a n d o t h a t b u t I j u s t n e e d t o s a y, c e r t a i n l y f r o m

m y p o i n t i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t h a t a s w e d e a l w i t h t h e q u e s t i o n o f M r M a n y i ’s
10

non-confirmation of – or the non-confirmation of his probation or the
d i s m i s s a l a n d t h e t r a n s f e r i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e d e a l w i t h i t i n a m a n n e r
that links it to what is relevant for purposes of seeing whether it throws
light on why Mr Maseko was transferred.
C e r t a i n l y f o r m e t h a t ’s w h a t I ’ m l o o k i n g f o r w h e t h e r a n y t h i n g
connected with his – the withdrawal of his dismissal and the – his
t r a n s f e r w h e t h e r t h e r e ’s a n y t h i n g t h a t c a n h e l p m e u n d e r s t a n d t h e
r e a s o n s o f M r M a s e k o ’s t r a n s f e r f r o m G C I S t o D P S A a n d m a y b e e v e n
w h o m a d e t h e d e c i s i o n – w h o i n i t i a t e d M r M a s e k o ’s t r a n s f e r.

I know

t h a t p a r t o f w h a t h e h a s b e e n a s k e d t o d e a l w i t h i n a n a ff i d a v i t a l s o
20

r e l a t e s t o M r P h u m l a W i l l i a m s ’ e v i d e n c e . I ’ m n o t s a y i n g t h a t , t h a t ’s
irrelevant that may probably would be relevant, I’m just saying insofar
a s i t r e l a t e s t o M r M a s e k o f o r m e t h a t ’s w h a t I ’ m l o o k i n g f o r a n d i t m a y
well be that, however I’m fair or however I’m lawful the dismissal may
have been, or the failure to confirm the probation may have been or
however lawful or fair it was or valid it was that might not throw light on

Page 44 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
w h a t I ’ m l o o k i n g f o r.
So in other words as far as I’m concerned the only reason
leaving out the issues relating to Ms Williams’ evidence, the only other
b a s i s t h a t I ’ m i n t e r e s t e d i n M r M a n y i ’s t r a n s f e r a n d d i s m i s s a l a n d
withdrawal of dismissal is to see whether it might help me understand
how or who initiated the transfer of Mr Maseko.

O t h e r w i s e i t ’s n o t

something that I’m particularly interested in his dismissal and transfer
if it doesn’t help me on that issue.
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

Chair we’re indebted for the direction, if I may just

make one or two submissions.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

It was certainly not my intention in the course of the

evidence to place significance on the lawfulness or otherwise of that
d e c i s i o n . M r M a n y i , h o w e v e r, r e p e a t e d l y i n h i s e v i d e n c e h a s s o u g h t t o
distance himself from accepting that a decision to fire him was taken
w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o i t ’s l e g a l v a l i d i t y o r n o t a n d i t w a s a g a i n s t t h a t
backdrop that I thought it important to traverse, to some extent, the
legislative provisions but Chairperson we are well aware of your
p a r t i c u l a r i n t e r e s t a n d i f I m a y t h e n j u s t c l a r i f y.
20

The reason why we have spent any time on the dismissal at
a l l , t h e n o n - c o n f i r m a t i o n o f t h e p r o b a t i o n i s b e c a u s e i t ’s v e r y i m p o r t a n t
f o r t h i s C o m m i s s i o n , i n m y s u b m i s s i o n t o u n d e r s t a n d M r M a n y i ’s s t a t e
of mind when he started to interact with people like Minister Baloyi and
Minister Oliphant in the lead up to the decision to withdraw that
termination and that has been the basis for the questions this morning.

Page 45 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
I t ’s t a k e n s o m e t i m e t o g e t c l a r i t y f r o m M r M a n y i a s t o w h a t h i s
understanding of his position in the Department of Labour was when he
was meeting with Mr Chabane for example a few days before he was
moved because what I’d like ask Mr Manyi, in due course, is how can
you have a conversation with Minister Chabane about being transferred
to GCIS at a point in time where you understand a decision has been
t a k e n t o f i r e y o u a n d i t ’s i n t h a t c o n t e x t t h a t w e p r o b e t h o s e a s p e c t s
b e c a u s e t h e n C h a i r, o u r h o p e i s t h a t t h r o u g h t h i s p r o c e s s w e w i l l g e t
greater clarity about what happened in those seven days.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o t h a t ’s f i n e I j u s t w a n t e d t o h i g h l i g h t

where my thinking is but also - so as long as I think the focus remains
in terms of what we are trying to do where it is supposed to throw light,
whether it throws light or not because the intention is not to go into a
lot of other details but I understand where you are.

Mr Manyi you

wanted to say something.
MR MANYI:

Ja, no Chair I just want to close by saying on this matter I

maintain my point that even this section here the employee referred to
here is people other than heads of departments as it were. Even the
termination of a head of department, even the probation of the head of
20

d e p a r t m e n t i f w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o d o i t w h i c h h a s t h e e ff e c t o f
dismissal, if you’re not doing it, must get the confirmation of the
President.
Even at that point the Minister does not have authority on his
o w n s o t h a t ’s t h e p o i n t a n d i n c o n c l u s i o n I ’ v e b e e n c o n s i s t e n t t h a t f r o m
where I was sitting, I mean, yesterday she made me look into the other

Page 46 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
page here where I had said I was put on precautionary suspension once
precautionary suspension twice and special leave. She read that page,
b e c a u s e t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w a s i n a l e t t e r w h i c h w a s n o t i n a n a ff i d a v i t
and she wanted me to state it here on record under oath and I stated it
on record under oath that that is my position and that position does not
c h a n g e a n d t h i s m o r n i n g , a g a i n I r e a d t h e D G ’s l e t t e r w h e r e I k n o w t h a t
i n h e r e t h e r e ’s a C F O w h o i s s a y i n g s o m e t h i n g c o n t r a r y t o w h a t t h e
D G ’s s a y i n g b u t h e r e ’s a D G , t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t w h o d i d n o t j u s t
say
10

this

because

h e ’s

a

DG

he

even

submitted

the

financial

. . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) s t a t e m e n t j u s t t o s h o w t h a t w h a t h e ’s s a y i n g i s j u s t n o t
from his head, his information is based on credible information.
S o t o a n s w e r t h e q u e s t i o n t h a t s h e w a n t s t o a s k , t h a t s h e ’s
alluding to …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:

Let her ask it later and then you can deal with it.

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a s h e ’s s t i l l g o i n g t o a s k i t w h e n s h e a s k s t h a t y o u

deal with it.
MR MANYI:

O k a y C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:
20

Chair if we may just discuss logistics for a moment

because I understand from the Secretariat that travel arrangements
have been made for Mr Manyi this afternoon and they need to be able
to move that flight imminently if it needs to be moved. I understand the
arrangements to be that his flight is at 2 o’clock which would mean that
he would need to leave here at 12 and I have no confidence that we
would finish by 12.

Page 47 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
I

think

that

we

would

go

somewhat

beyond

that,

not

excessively beyond that …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HOFMEYR:

Maybe half past twelve?
I n d e e d s o m e t h i n g o f t h a t o r d e r C h a i r, i t r e a l l y d o e s

depend on the length of the answers and the engagement and of course
Chair you must have a full opportunity to ask your questions but I think
i t w o u l d b e p r u d e n t t o s e e k t o m o v e t h e f l i g h t n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:
10

No Chair if we finish half past twelve I’ll still get it.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:

Ye s M r M a n y i w h a t ’s y o u r v i e w o n … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

Yo u ’ l l s t i l l g e t i t ?

J a b e c a u s e I ’ v e g o t o t h e r a r r a n g e m e n t s i n C a p e To w n .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o m a y b e t h e n l e t ’s t a k e t h e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t

– l e t ’s t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t a n d t h e n l e t ’s g o
f r o m s t r a i g h t a f t e r t h a t a n d s e e h o w – i f c l o s e t o h a l f p a s t t h e r e ’s a
d i ff i c u l t y l e t ’s t a l k a b o u t i t t h e n .
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

We adjourn.

REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
20

I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I w o u l d l i k e t o m o v e i f w e m a y b a c k
t o t h e l a w y e r ’s l e t t e r o f t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 t h a t i s a t E x h i b i t N N 5
at page 297.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .

Page 48 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi this letter was addressed to a Minister –

former Minister Oliphant and former Minister Baloyi, is that correct?
MR MANYI: I beg your pardon you said page?
ADV HOFMEYR: 297.
CHAIRPERSON: Please switch on your microphone Mr Manyi.
M R M A N Y I : Yo u c a n r e p e a t y o u r q u e s t i o n p l e a s e ?
ADV HOFMEYR: Of course. I was just confirming that this was a letter
written by your attorneys to the then Minister Oliphant and Minister
Baloyi, is that correct?
10

M R M A N Y I : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

And it is dated the 3rd of November 2010, is that

correct?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

The Minister of Labour is now Ms Oliphant, is that

right?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR: Do you know when Minister Mdladlana ceased being
the Minister of Labour?
MR MANYI: I – okay in fact I think I do. It can only be on the – I beg
20

your pardon. I think two dates Chair one of the two dates. Either on
the 29th or on the 30th.

I n f a c t i f y o u l o o k a t M i n i s t e r O l i p h a n t ’s

a ff i d a v i t w h e n s h e t a l k s a b o u t t h e 3 0 t h s h e t a l k s a b o u t t h e 3 0 t h i n t h e
morning of the 30th.

So generally how it works is that you never

a p p o i n t a p e r s o n w i t h o u t c r e a t i n g a v a c a n c y.

So Mr Mdladlana would

have been removed either on the 30th earlier in the morning or the 29th

Page 49 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
as it were. So around that space.
ADV HOFMEYR:

So a matter of days before this letter was written,

correct?
MR MANYI: On the – ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: Sorry you have just been ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : To a d a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e j u s t b e e n t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e 3 0 t h a n d w i t h o u t
a reference to the month so I understand you to be meaning the 29th or
t h e 3 0 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 0 w h i c h i s a f e w d a y s b e f o r e t h i s l e t t e r, c o r r e c t ?
10

M R M A N Y I : I n f a c t C h a i r. A p o l o g i e s M s H o ff m a n f o r a l o n g a n s w e r. I
think it is important this issue of dates just to see the malice actually in
the – in this whole thing. On the 28th of October there is a DC sitting
o n t h e 2 8 t h o f O c t o b e r.

In the middle of this thing as I was saying

within 30 minutes or so of – on the 28th of October then there is this
major announcement that gets made in the meeting that, no the
Minister has decided to – not to confirm the probation and the lawyers
they make a decision that there is no point carrying on any further with
t h i s n o w b e c a u s e t h e o b j e c t i v e i s g o i n g t o b e a c h i e v e d d i ff e r e n t l y.
Which just shows that even that DC had a pre-determined outcome.
20

But now that the pre-determined outcome has already been – there is a
quicker way to achieve it via not termination there is no point in doing
this one. Now this is the 28th when this comes. I am sure because –
because Chairperson maybe something would have leaked to the
Minister because this is a decision that to – the Deployment Committee
of the ANC is about five or six people that are in that committee. Now

Page 50 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
if on the 30th Minister Oliphant is on record to having been told on the
30th so somewhere between the 28th and the 30th something would have
leaked to the Minister that you are a gonner as it were. And this is why
he then hurriedly wrote that letter on the whatever but dated on the 29th
and so on. So ja. So ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well I think based on evidence from other witnesses
that I have heard my suspicion is that probably Mr Mdladlana was one
of a number of Ministers who were dropped from Cabinet at the end of
October 2010.
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

One of whom was Ms Barbara Hogan who gave

evidence in this Commission.
MR MANYI: The press announcement was done on the 31st of October
C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: It is public record.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: But the decision makers ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR MANYI: Would have sort of made up their minds.
CHAIRPERSON: Made their decision before.
MR MANYI: Before that.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: So he would have got wind of what is coming.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.

Page 51 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: So I want to place it here Chair that the letter that we are
busy splitting hairs on was actually even done on malice. This is why
that he did not follow any process to achieve his ill objectives.
ADV HOFMEYR: Mr Manyi what interactions did you have with Minister
O l i p h a n t a f t e r s h e t o o k o ff i c e ?
MR MANYI:

S h e i n M i n i s t e r O l i p h a n t ’s a ff i d a v i t C h a i r s h e m a k e s

reference to this question. Whatever is in there I confirm it.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi we would like to be assisted by your

evidence if we may as opposed to – are you saying what she says there
10

you confirm as being accurate?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O k a y b e c a u s e y o u r l e t t e r – y o u r l a w y e r ’s l e t t e r s e e m s
t o s a y s o m e t h i n g a b i t d i ff e r e n t . S o i f w e c o u l d g o t h e r e . T h e l a w y e r ’s
l e t t e r a t 2 9 7 w a s w r i t t e n o n t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r, r i g h t ? A n d a t p a g e
301 at paragraph 7.1 they record there that:
“Mr Manyi has advised us that he met with the new
Minister of Labour and they had a cordial interaction and
Mr Manyi is excited at the prospect of working under the
guidance and instructions of Minister Oliphant.”

20

Now I would like your help on that because Minister Oliphant
says she met with you the week after she was appointed on the 1st of
November but this letter seems to record that you met with her prior to
t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MANYI: Ja – okay Chair let me just get the dates right here. This
happened more than 10 years or so ago. About 10 years ago. So does

Page 52 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
M i n i s t e r O l i p h a n t i n h e r a ff i d a v i t m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e a c t u a l d a t e t h a t
we met?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s s h e g o e s t h r o u g h t h e c h r o n o l o g y o f t h e w e e k i n
which she was appointed.

And she talks about the first meeting with

you having been after that week and so I am just trying to get clarity
n o w.

Again she may have got the dates wrong but I want your

evidence. Can you confirm that you met with her before the 3rd of
November?
MR MANYI:
10

I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e t h i s – I c a n n o t r e c a l l C h a i r.

But I

recall vividly the meeting at Sheraton.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI:

This is where we discussed like she said the Sheraton

meeting I really recall.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: But any other discussion prior to that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u d o n o t r e c a l l .

second one that Ms Oliphant refers to.

The Sheraton meeting is the
Maybe just help me with one

other thing? If you had met prior to the 3rd of November it would likely
20

o n M s O l i p h a n t ’s v e r s i o n h a v e h a d t o h a v e b e e n o n t h e 1 s t o f N o v e m b e r
itself the day she flew up to be appointed in the position and she flew
back down to KZN because her evidence is for the remainder of that
week she was in KwaZulu-Natal.

Do you have any recollection of

meeting her at the airport when she came up on the 1st?
M R M A N Y I : O h y e s . O k a y. O h o k a y a l r i g h t o k a y. I r e m e m b e r t h a t .

Page 53 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: Does it come back?
MR MANYI: Ja.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S u p e r.
M R M A N Y I : I r e m e m b e r t h a t C h a i r. J a i t i s t h a t w h e n y o u s a y m e e t i n g
one gets a formal setting. But yes I did go and meet – I met her at the
airport ja. We bumped – ja I went to the airport and ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: And what was the subject matter of your meeting?
MR MANYI: Well look she I think at that point the – it was – we were
j u s t w a l k i n g – i t i s n o t l i k e a m e e t i n g i t i s j u s t – s h e j u s t g o t o ff t h e
10

plane and all that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Did

you

bump

into

each

other

or

there

was

...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: I knew that she was going to be around the airport.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MANYI: I knew this.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w a n t e d t o s e e h e r.
M R M A N Y I : I w a n t e d t o s e i z e t h e o p p o r t u n i t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MANYI: Ja I wanted to – I had the agenda.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:

I w a n t e d t o s e i z e t h e o p p o r t u n i t y.

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: And then obviously she was non-committal but she was not
hostile and so on.

So the excitement I would have expressed here

would have been the sentiment that I got out of that.

Page 54 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR: How did you know when she would be at the airport?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t k n o w h o w I w o u l d h a v e k n o w n b u t I k n e w. I j u s t
d o n o t k n o w h o w.
ADV HOFMEYR: So ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r h o w. B u t c l e a r l y o n t h e – j a b u t l o o k I
work for Public Services.
CHAIRPERSON: Would her flight arrangements not have been made by
your department and maybe would you not have ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI:
10

No I was at the Department of Labour that – but

...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR:

Chair at that point Mr Manyi was not at the

D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r.
MR MANYI:

Ja but Chairperson.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M R M A N Y I : I a m p a r t o f s o c i e t y. I h a v e g o t n e t w o r k s . S o i t g o t t o m e .
I have got networks.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR: Sorry so it was the networks that gave you the details
of when her flight was arriving?
20

M R M A N Y I : Ye s . Ye s t h e n e t w o r k s . N o t t h e f l i g h t w a s a r r i v i n g b u t w e
knew that on this day that was going to happen and so on.

A lot of

other Ministers were coming so maybe somebody else had had another
agenda says, hey come – I just do not have the details but it was not a
b i g d e a l w h i c h I j u s t k n e w s o m e h o w.
ADV HOFMEYR: So did you have to wait long for her to arrive?

Page 55 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: I do not remember now how long I waited.
ADV HOFMEYR:

And what was your purpose in meeting her at the

airport when she came up?
MR MANYI: H’mm it is just to first of all Chair to create a relationship
with her just to show that I really want to get back to work. Because at
that time I had been at home for a long time getting paid and so and so
it has always been my problem that here is government money being
paid to somebody sitting at home. So here is an opportunity let us get
a fresh start. So I wanted to start a fresh start.
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h e l a w y e r ’s l e t t e r i n d i c a t e s t h a t a t t h e s a m e p a g e

301 that you suggested on the 3rd of November through your lawyers
that she consider withdrawing the letter of the 29th of October 2010 and
re-instating you as the Director-General of the Department of Labour
w i t h i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t . I s t h a t w h a t y o u d i s c u s s e d w i t h h e r ?
M R M A N Y I : I w i l l b e l y i n g t o y o u C h a i r. E v e n l a s t n i g h t b e c a u s e t h e r e
were – I got five bundles to go through. I did not read this letter and
make some recollection. I honestly do not remember the details I just
r e m e m b e r t h e s e n t i m e n t o f w h y I m e t h e r. B u t t h e n i t t y g r i t t y f u l l s t o p
a n d c o m m a s I d o n o t r e m e m b e r.
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

Is it fair though on the basis of what is recorded in

the letter that you recognise the need for the termination letter to be
withdrawn?
MR MANYI:

No, no.

What I knew is that I was on precautionary

suspension and you have to get re-instated from suspension.

So if I

had said that it would be in line with my agenda. So my understanding

Page 56 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
of being suspended is that you cannot just now decide for yourself that
you are just going to go back. Somebody must authorise you coming
back from suspension. So to re-instate from suspension is another reinstatement from precautionary suspension.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi you have previously confirmed today that

you do accept that Mr Mdladlana took a decision to fire you. I suggest
that that appreciation is consistent with the understanding that is
reflected in the letter which is that that position had to be reversed by
someone. Do you accept that?
10

MR MANYI:

No I do not accept that.

What I had said earlier Chair

when the Chair gave a good formulation is to accept the formulation of
t h e C h a i r t h a t t h a t w a s w h a t M r M d l a d l a n a ’s h e a d . N o t t h a t I e v e r
accepted the truth of it or the factual basis of it etcetera of it. I never
accepted that.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi I do not want to have to belabour points

u n n e c e s s a r i l y. I s i t n o t y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t M i n i s t e r
Mdladlana had taken a decision to fire you?
M R M A N Y I : I r e p e a t C h a i r. M r M d l a d l a n a h a s g o t n o a u t h o r i t y t o f i r e
me.
20

He might have had – it is that formulation – back to your

formulation Chair we are going to go around in circles.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k y o u r a n s w e r b a s e d o n w h a t y o u s a i d w h e n
I m a d e t h a t f o r m u l a t i o n . Yo u a n s w e r w o u l d b e t h a t y o u a c c e p t e d t h a t
Mr Mdladlana had made a decision to fire you but from your point of
view you did not recognise as I understand it.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .

Page 57 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: Did not recognise him as having power to fire you.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that right?
MR MANYI:

Ye s C h a i r.

And we must separate that from saying

because I know his agenda and therefor I accept his agenda. I do not
accept his agenda. His agenda is to fire me. I accept that. I accept
that from where he sits he is firing me. But I do not accept that that if
a factual position.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
10

ADV HOFMEYR: Do you accept that something had to be done to bring
you back into the Department of Labour?
MR MANYI:

I was on precautionary suspension.

So to go from

precautionary suspension back yes something must happen.
ADV HOFMEYR: So when Minister Oliphant withdrew your termination
and placed you on special leave did she not do something that was
competent?
M R M A N Y I : T h e – n o s h e r e g u l a r i s e d s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s i r r e g u l a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y. I a m n o t s u r e M s H o f m e y r w h e t h e r
you should not try and find another more lay person friendly term than
20

competent.
A D V H O F M E Y R : L e g a l n e u t r a l I s u s p e c t i n d e e d . C e r t a i n l y C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Because that might be very legal.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

But – so I just want to make sure that Mr Manyi

understands whatever the question is.

Page 58 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
A D V H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: That you want to put to her – to him. It may be that
you might struggle to find another term I do not know but I just want to
make sure that he will understand your question.
ADV HOFMEYR:

When you were engaging – I will get there in a

m o m e n t i f I M a y C h a i r. I w i l l g o b a c k a b i t i n t e r m s o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n s
with Ms Oliphant.

So you have confirmed that there was the

e n g a g e m e n t a t t h e a i r p o r t o n t h e 1 s t o f N o v e m b e r. I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o
also have confirmed the meeting at the Sheraton. Is that correct?
10

M R M A N Y I : Ye s c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR: What was the subject matter of that meeting?
MR MANYI: Ja at the Sheraton I went there to discuss my situation at
the Sheraton which colloquially is described as dismissal and so on
that this is unlawful etcetera and all of that. So we discussed that in
there to say this is unlawful and can she please – because my biggest
problem Chair to be honest – my biggest, biggest problem is that I
knew that I would win this case in court. I would win this case in court.
And that my biggest problem was that at that time we were very – we
were driving transformation very hard. Now can you imagine a Minister

20

of Labour losing a labour matter in court?

What – how else can

government govern going forward on labour issues.
predicament Chairperson.

So that was my

So ja I continue to insist that that was an

unlawful thing.
ADV HOFMEYR: Did you discuss appealing the decision with her?
MR MANYI: The what sorry?

Page 59 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR:

D i d y o u d i s c u s s a p p e a l i n g M i n i s t e r M d l a d l a n a ’s

decision with her?
MR MANYI: 2010 I do not remember but I – look Chair I cannot pretend
t h a t I h a v e n o t r e a d h e r a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MANYI: I would be lying.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I n h e r a ff i d a v i t s h e s a y s s h e a d v i s e d m e t o a p p e a l . S o –
t o a p p e a l t o D P S A . Yo u s e e I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t a l s o C h a i r t o d r a w
10

the distinction and we must understand the point of departure. If one
Minister says go to DPSA that is an internal process.

That Minister

u n d e r s t a n d s t h e l a w. U n d e r s t a n d s t h a t t h i s t h i n g i s s t i l l w i t h i n u s i n t h e
government. But if another Minister who is misguided is saying, go to
P – to the Bargaining Council which is outside that person is already
thinking that his decision is final.

So Minister Oliphant knew that the

President works through the DPSA Minister and all of that.

So re-

determination must include the DPSA Minister with the President.

So

that is why she advised me like that.
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

W e l l M i n i s t e r O l i p h a n t ’s v e r s i o n o n h e r a ff i d a v i t i s

that you will find this Mr Manyi in the bundle NN3 in the same file. It is
under the same tab.

I t i s u n d e r t a b 3 i n t h e f i l e a t p a g e 4 . Yo u c a n

have it in front of you but I am intending to read it so you can also give
me your answer in relation to it. When Ms Oliphant indicates the first
interaction she had with you she says:
“I

then

received

a

call

from

Minister

Page 60 of 151

Manyi

who

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
congratulated me on my appointment and informed me
that he was intending to appeal the decision to dismiss
him or take the Department of Labour to court over his
dismissal.”
She suggests that in that paragraph it was you who informed
her not that she advised you to appeal. Do you say that what she has
reflected there is wrong?
MR MANYI: I was not following you when you were reading.
ADV HOFMEYR: Apologies.
10

MR MANYI: I have got ...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR: Under tab 3 at page 4. Mr Manyi it is at paragraph
11 .
M R M A N Y I : P a g e 4 . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . P a r a g r a p h 11 a t t h a t p a g e i t i s s o r t o f a t h i r d o f
the way down. She is talking about the week after her appointment and
then she says a third of the way down:
“I

then

received

a

call

from

Minister

Manyi

who

congratulated me on my appointment and informed me
that he was intending to appeal the decision to dismiss
20

him or take the Department of Labour to court over his
dismissal.”
And I what I wanted to understand from you is in your evidence
a moment ago you said in the interaction with her she had proposed
appealing.

Here she seems to indicate it came from you.

dispute what she says there?

Page 61 of 151

Do you

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: No I do not because this – what it means in substance is
that I am not going to fold my arms. So you could put a long – a strong
legal jargon of what appeal means and so on but strictly speaking the
long and the short of this was that I am not going to just accept this
a n d f o l d m y a r m s . S o I w i l l t a k e i t u p s o m e h o w. S o t h i s i s c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

And in those interactions with Minister Oliphant did

she indicate to you that she did not want you to return to the
Department of Labour?
MR MANYI: I do not remember that discussion.
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u h a v e s e e n h e r a ff i d a v i t i n w h i c h s h e i n d i c a t e s

t h a t s h e d i d n o t w a n t y o u t o r e t u r n t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Is that correct? But you do not recall her conveying
that to you at all?
MR MANYI: No.
ADV HOFMEYR: So there were no discussions about how you could be
brought back into the Department if it was a situation which she did not
want you there as the Director-General.
MR MANYI: No. I do not remember any of that.
20

A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u a l s o h a d i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h M i n i s t e r B a l o y i i n t h i s
period?
MR MANYI: Oh ja numerous times.
ADV HOFMEYR: Is that correct?
MR MANYI: Ja. Numerous times.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Did you have any interactions with former President

Page 62 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
Zuma about your position?
MR MANYI: I probably would have written to the President highlighting
issues and seeking his intervention. Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: Mr Manyi that certainly borne out to some extent by
one of the documents that we received from DPSA and I would like to
just take you to it if I may?
MR MANYI:

He was my employer after all so I had to talk to my

e m p l o y e r.
ADV HOFMEYR: Indeed. Of course your contract of employment is not
10

concluded with the President, is it?
M R M A N Y I : B u t i t i s h i s a u t h o r i t y. H e – h e w o r k s w i t h t h e D P S A i t i s
h i s a u t h o r i t y. T h e y w o r k u n d e r h i s a u t h o r i t y.
ADV HOFMEYR: Mr Manyi if you go in Exhibit NN5 to page 208.
MR MANYI: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Have you ever seen this document?

It is a three

page document which unfortunately omits every alternate page.

Have

you seen this document before?
MR MANYI: Have I seen it before? No I saw it last night with part of
these things that you gave me last night.
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you Mr Manyi.

Chair just to explain this

s i t u a t i o n w i t h t h e s e d o c u m e n t s . T h e r e h a v e b e e n e ff o r t s o n t h e p a r t o f
the Commission since January of this year to obtain the disciplinary file
of Mr Manyi. And as matters currently stand it has never been found in
any of the Departments who have been approached.

What was found

by DPSA was a set of documents in a legal file within the Department

Page 63 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
and those are the documents that we are working with at the moment.
It was important when one first sees these pages to establish whether
there is just a photocopying error that there were double sided pages
that then were not photocopied.

T h e a ff i d a v i t o f D P S A i n d i c a t e s t h a t

this is the file in its totality that was found and has been given to the
Commission. I understand from Mr Manyi that he is – does not know of
this document.

It is a document at page 210 which appears to have

been authored or intended to be signed by Mr Baloyi and so it is a
matter that we will pick up with Mr Baloyi on. But what I am interested
10

in is what is recorded in the first paragraph in order to ask Mr Manyi
about it. Because at paragraph 1.1 on page 208 Mr Manyi the following
is recorded:
“ T h e o ff i c e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e R e p u b l i c o f S o u t h
Africa asked me to intervene in the matter involving the
former Director-General of the Department of Labour Mr
J Manyi, Mr Manyi.

The issue in this case is that the

former Minister of Labour – the former Minister –
decided

not

to

confirm

Mr

M a n y i ’s

permanent

appointment as Director-General following his probation
20

e ff e c t i v e l y t e r m i n a t i n g h i s s e r v i c e s o n 3 0 N o v e m b e r
2010.”
W e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t t h e o ff i c e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d m a d e a n
approach to Minister Baloyi to intervene in this matter?
MR MANYI: No.
ADV HOFMEYR: No. But you do confirm that you raised the issue with

Page 64 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
former President Zuma?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s I – t h e r e i s n o b o d y I d i d n o t r a i s e i t w i t h . I r a i s e d i t
with everyone.
ADV HOFMEYR: Right. And then I would like to take you to a further
letter in the same bundle at page 216. Mr Manyi this appears to be a
letter between – if you go over the page to 217 Mr Baloyi and back at
the first page Ms Oliphant. Have you seen this letter before?
MR MANYI: No.
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

Thank you.

I certainly intend to probe it with Mr

B a l o y i w h e n h e c o m e s t o g i v e e v i d e n c e C h a i r. B u t w h a t I a m i n t e r e s t e d
in Mr Manyi is what records at paragraph 3 on page 217. Because it is
relevant to us understanding what Minister Oliphant was thinking about
and your engagements with her insofar as bringing you back into the
D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r i s c o n c e r n e d ? Yo u w i l l s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 3 t h e r e
Mr Baloyi records the following: He say:
“In light of my observations in paragraph 2 above”
And just to – for completeness he concludes in that former
paragraph that Minister Mdladalana did not have the requisite authority
when he terminated your services. He says to Minister Oliphant.

20

“ Yo u a r e a d v i s e d t o :
a. Withdraw

the

former

M i n i s t e r ’s

letter

which

terminated the DGs services
b . E x t e n d t h e D G ’s p r o b a t i o n f o r a n o t h e r f o u r m o n t h s .
c.

Place him on two weeks special leave to allow us
s p a c e t o f i n d a s u i t a b l e s o l u t i o n t o t h i s m a t t e r.

Page 65 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
d. During this two week period decide whether or not to
pursue the misconduct charges against the DG.”
Do you see that?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi did you ever discuss the misconduct

charges against you with Minister Oliphant?
MR MANYI:
r e m e m b e r.

I think on the meeting at Sheraton Chairperson if I
Because I wanted her to have information.

I would have

gone to her with a list of these allegations to say this is what I am
10

being accused of and this is my response to these accusations. Ja so
a c c u s a t i o n s t h r o w c h a r g e s i n d e e d . I d i s c u s s e d w i t h h e r.
ADV HOFMEYR: Now are you aware that she withdrew the termination
o f y o u r e m p l o y m e n t a s D G o n t h e 3 1 s t o f J a n u a r y 2 0 11 ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . I s a w t h a t i n t h e a ff i d a v i t .
ADV HOFMEYR: Did you ever receive the letter in terms of which she
made that decision?
M R M A N Y I : I h a v e s e e n t h e l e t t e r h e r e C h a i r. Yo u k n o w i f y o u l o o k a t
the addresses of the letters they are all private bags and they have
been sent I think to the Department.

20

So I actually never saw these

letters. They are quite – there is another one again and so on, but I
h a v e n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y l e t t e r f r o m a n y o n e f o r t h a t m a t t e r.
The only letter I received was probably because I was in the
Department itself. Was the GCIS, but all these other ones not that I did
not know about the contents of them in the fullness of time, but I never
r e c e i v e d t h e a c t u a l p h y s i c a l c o p y o f t h e l e t t e r.

Page 66 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR: When did you know of the contents of this letter?
MR MANYI: H’mm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n t h e l e t t e r o f w i t h d r a w a l ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : O f w i t h d r a w a l . I n d e e d C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Maybe we must just indicate – if I recall

correctly that letter is addressed to Mr Manyi. Is that right?
ADV HOFMEYR: That is right.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I f w e c a n j u s t g e t i t u p C h a i r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o w e c a n a l l b e l o o k i n g a t i t . Yo u w i l l f i n d i t i n N N 5
at – if you will give a moment. At page 41.
MR MANYI: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: That is exhibit NN5 page 41.
MR MANYI:

Ja.

S o I c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c t l y.

I really cannot recall

exactly when I knew about it.
A D V H O F M E Y R : O k a y. S o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I just wanted to follow up on the issue of

...(intervenes).
20

ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: The address.
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: So was the point you were making Mr Manyi was that
that letter and maybe another one that you have in mind. The address
used was a Department of Labour address?

Page 67 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

And because you were not at the Department of

Labour you were on suspension or ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:
That

is

not

Yo u h a d b e e n d i s m i s s e d .

the

address

that

should

Whatever the position is.
have

been

used

if

the

...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Letter was to reach you?
10

M R M A N Y I : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Minister Oliphant – former Minister Oliphant, in her

a ff i d a v i t s a y s i t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o s u b m i t t h i s l e t t e r t o t h e
Human Resources Department. Did she have any interactions with you
about that?
M R M A N Y I : Yo h . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r, b u t I c a n s a y t h i s f o r a f a c t C h a i r
that I have never had any formal engagement with the HR of the
D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r. S i n c e t h i s m a t t e r w a s b r e w i n g .
ADV HOFMEYR: So you said a moment ago that in the fullness of time
20

y o u c a m e t o l e a r n o f t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e l e t t e r.
MR MANYI: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR:

I might have missed your answer to that.

When did

you come in the fullness of time to learn of the contents of this letter?
MR MANYI: I said I did not recall that.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n o t r e c a l l ?

Page 68 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Could you give us an order of magnitude.

I am

c e r t a i n l y n o t a s k i n g f o r a d a y, b u t d o y o u t h i n k y o u l e a r n t a b o u t i t i n
F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 ? B e y o n d t h a t .
MR MANYI: No. I think - I really do not want to be put under pressure
...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR: Sure.
MR MANYI: And say the wrong things. I do not recall.
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o . T h a t i s a b s o l u t e l y f a i r. M r M a n y i t h e n w h e n y o u
10

were meeting with Minister Chabane either on the preceding Thursday
o r F r i d a y o r M o n d a y o f t h e w e e k o f t h e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y.

Yo u d i d n o t

k n o w t h a t y o u h a d b e e n b r o u g h t b a c k i n t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r.
Did you?
M R M A N Y I : D e f i n i t e l y – n o I d i d n o t k n o w.
ADV HOFMEYR: So ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: I just thought I was still on precautionary suspension.
ADV HOFMEYR: Mr Manyi your letters in November make it absolutely
clear you knew that you had been fired.
M R M A N Y I : N o , n o C h a i r. W e g o i n g a r o u n d i n t a i l s . I k n o w t h a t t h i s
20

w a s t h e i n t e n t i o n o f t h e M i n i s t e r, b u t I k n e w t h a t i t c o u l d n o t b e p u t i n t o
e ff e c t a n d I s a i d i n D e c e m b e r I g o t a s a l a r y a n d I d i d g i v e t h e b a n k
s t a t e m e n t f o r D e c e m b e r s a l a r y.

So I have got concrete evidence if

anybody says to me in December you were fired.
I said how is that – why have I got a transaction from payroll
i n D e c e m b e r i f I w a s f i r e d a s o f e n d o f N o v e m b e r.

Page 69 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR: Mr Manyi your own words in November 2010 were that
you had been fired. It is the evidence of Ms Oliphant that you engaged
her on the basis that you were appealing the decision to dismiss you.
MR MANYI: Ja but Chair I did explain that those terms have just been
u s e d c o l l o q u i a l l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: That the issue of being fired ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: Does not happen ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI:

Without the involvement of the President.

I have been

s a y i n g r e p e a t e d l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h i n k y o u h a v e – w h a t y o u c e r t a i n l y h a v e s a i d
you knew was that the Minister had taken a decision to fire you.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u s a i d y o u k n e w. T h e o t h e r p a r t t h a t y o u h a v e
s a i d w e k n o w n a m e l y y o u d i d n o t r e c o g n i s e t h a t . Yo u d i d n o t t h i n k h e
h a d t h a t p o w e r, b u t t h a t h e h a d m a d e a d e c i s i o n t h a t y o u k n e w y o u d i d
not think he had that power that much. I think we adhere.
20

M R M A N Y I : Ye s a n d n o t o n l y t h a t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: From your side, ja.
M R M A N Y I : N o t o n l y t h a t C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M R M A N Y I : I c o n t i n u e d t o g e t a s a l a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 70 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: So whatever was purported to have been a dismissal from
where I was sitting ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: Did not really happen ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M R M A N Y I : B e c a u s e h o w c a n i t b e i f I g e t a s a l a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m m . O k a y. M s H o f m e y r.
ADV HOFMEYR:
correct.
10

C h a i r t h e m a t t e r o f t h e s a l a r y.

Mr Manyi is indeed

He did hand us the – his bank records for the period of the

December payment. It requires further investigation on the part of the
Commission and I propose just to highlight why that is so.

Mr Manyi

i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a ff i d a v i t f r o m t h e D i r e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f t h e
Department of Labour confirming that he had been paid a salary for the
m o n t h s o f N o v e m b e r, D e c e m b e r a n d J a n u a r y. T h a t i s i n d e e d s o .
H e t o o k u s t o t h a t a ff i d a v i t . T h a t a ff i d a v i t i s a c c o m p a n i e d b y
a f u r t h e r a ff i d a v i t . I f I c a n j u s t g i v e y o u t h e r e f e r e n c e . C h a i r i t i s t h e
a ff i d a v i t o f M r M a d u n a . Yo u w i l l f i n d i t a t p a g e 1 4 7 o f N N 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a d u n a ’s a ff i d a v i t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n f o l l o w e d t h e
20

a ff i d a v i t o f t h e D G , b e c a u s e t h e D G s a i d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 t h a t M r M a n y i
took us to.
“That from the information brought to my attention from
the PERSEL or BAS indicates salary payments were
made to Mr Manyi for November 2010, December 2010
a n d J a n u a r y 2 0 11 . ”

Page 71 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
So there is no dispute that he was paid for those months, but
what became relevant is when he was paid for those months and that
w a s s o u g h t t o b e c l a r i f i e d i n t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r M a d u n a , b e c a u s e y o u
will see there at paragraph 5 on that page it is recorded:
“From the information brought to my attention it is
indicated that …”
Oh. Apologies. I must start a paragraph above. Four:
“From the information brought to my attention it is
indicated
10

that

when

M r M a n y i ’s

termination

was

w i t h d r a w n o n 3 1 J a n u a r y 2 0 11 t h i s r e q u i r e d h i m t o b e
back

paid

for

the

amounts

not

paid

to

him

in

D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d J a n u a r y 2 0 11 . F r o m t h e i n f o r m a t i o n
brought to my attention it is indicated that this is the
r e a s o n w h y t h e r e w a s a n i n s t r u c t i o n t o p a y M r M a n y i ’s t o
s k i p m o n t h s o f s a l a r y.

From the information brought to

my attention it is indicated that thereafter the salaries
for December 2010

and

J a n u a r y 2 0 11

were

paid

to

M r M a n y i t h r o u g h B A S o n 7 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 . ”
And then there are
20

accompanying documents including a

d o c u m e n t d a t e w i t h a h a n d w r i t t e n d a t e 7 F e b r u a r y. C h a i r, I d o n o t w a n t
to take this any further at this point. Except to indicate, because it was
one of the grounds on which Mr Manyi indicated that I was operating in
b a d f a i t h . I t i s i m p o r t a n t t o l o o k a t b o t h a ff i d a v i t s .
It is my submission, but I am concerned to have received from
Mr Manyi bank statements reflecting a payment. I do not propose to go

Page 72 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
f u r t h e r. I w o u l d l i k e t o i n v e s t i g a t e i t . S o t h a t w e c a n g e t t o t h e b o t t o m
of what is stated here as against the bank statements of Mr Manyi, but
that was just ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : To c o m p l e t e t h a t a s p e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

I would like to go back if I may to the meeting with

Minister Chabane.

So at that point you have confirmed for the Chair

you ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: I ...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: I mention for what is it worth that we are on my watch
at about nine and a half minutes past 12.

I simply mention that

because we were looking at trying to finish at half past 12. So that we
a r e a l l a l i v e a s t o h o w m u c h t i m e i s l e f t . O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

I am well aware of the time left.

My concern is whether we will complete in that time, but should we
possibly get to 12:30 and then make a decision about taking matters
forward.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

If you think there is a chance you could finish by

12:00 let us do that, but if you already know it cannot then maybe we
s h o u l d t a l k n o w, b u t I t h i n k g i v e i t a t r y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

I a m h a p p y t o g i v e i t a t r y.

I am almost certain

though that we will not finish and the reason for that is.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.

Page 73 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR: I am very mindful of the focus that the Chair wanted
to place ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: On the remaining evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: The challenge though is that we need to complete the
transfer into GCIS.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: There is evidence related to that and ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: And what Mr Manyi knew and who he was interacting
with.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t h e n d o n e e d – I k n o w t h a t t h e r e i s a f u l l a ff i d a v i t
from Mr Manyi in response to Ms Williams, but there are particular
p o i n t s i n t h a t a ff i d a v i t t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t t o t h e i s s u e s w e h a v e b e e n
traversing with Mr Manyi today and let me just highlight what they are.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

20

Mr Manyi

made

submissions

–

gave

evidence

yesterday in relation to the spend of GCIS after Mr Manyi entered GCIS
and he made the point that there was never R600 million paid while he
was at GCIS to TNA.

It is important that we probe precisely what

p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e i n t h e p e r i o d u n d e r M r M a n y i ’s w a t c h .
Quite frankly in fairness to Mr Manyi, because he says that
we must look at that in order for dots to be connected in a particular

Page 74 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
way and it would not be appropriate not to traverse that with Mr Manyi.
If I am to do those aspects and also – well we want to tie up the salary
aspect. It is not – it is certainly not clear to me that we would finish by
12:30.
CHAIRPERSON: Well if the reality is that we are not going to finish by
12:30 when Mr Manyi may have to leave, because as I understand it he
has got other commitments that he needs to attend to. I think that is
what he said.
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y w h y i t i s i m p o r t a n t f o r h i m t o c a t c h t h e f l i g h t .
Then the question that arises is whether if he is going to be asked to
c o m e b a c k a n y w a y.

There is any point in delaying him another 15

...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: 15 minutes ...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: Or we should let him go and catch his flight and other
arrangements be made for the future.

Mr Manyi do you want to say

something on this?
20

MR MANYI: Chairperson I do not know - I ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d l i k e t o f i n i s h i f y o u c a n ?
M R M A N Y I : I w o u l d l i k e t o f i n i s h i f I c a n C h a i r. J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e s e n s e I a m g e t t i n g .
MR MANYI: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I think ] from our side we are available the whole

Page 75 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
d a y.
MR MANYI: It ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Certainly from my side I was sensitive if you might

h a v e c o m m i t m e n t s t h a t y o u c a n n o t m o v e . T h a t y o u n e e d e d t o h o n o u r,
b u t i f t h e r e i s a c h a n c e t h a t m a y b e e v e n i f w e t a k e a b r e a k . Yo u m a k e
whatever

calls

that

you

might

wish

to

make

and

make

other

arrangements and we are able to continue and try and finish.
We are available to do that, but I know that Ms Hofmeyr has
said there are things that might need further investigation. So I do not
10

know whether we could achieve finishing with you completely all
together

today

or

whether

whatever

other

issues

that

maybe

i n v e s t i g a t e d m i g h t b e d e a l t w i t h b y w a y o f a ff i d a v i t – r e s p o n s e s i n
a ff i d a v i t w i t h o u t y o u h a v i n g t o c o m e b a c k a n d g i v e o r a l e v i d e n c e . S o
all of those things could be looked at. What do you think?
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r, i f t h e p e o p l e d o i n g l o g i s t i c s t h e y c a n m o v e – l e t u s
s a y t h e f l i g h t b y o n e h o u r. W i l l t h a t w o r k f o r M s H o f m e y r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

The challenge is we usually take the lunch adjourn.

So my suggestion would be that we push the flight late enough that we
20

can happily adjourn.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: Come back at two and complete the evidence. I am
anxious with a gap of an hour that we would be able to make three.
CHAIRPERSON: Well we ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: Can we not take lunch at two Chair?

Page 76 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: We can ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: So that we finish at two.
CHAIRPERSON:

We can move the lunch to later if that is going to

help.
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: So ...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Nobody will die if we do not eat at one.

So – okay

and if we do it that way namely we work up to two would that give you
10

enough time to ...(intervenes)?
ADV HOFMEYR: That should give enough time.
CHAIRPERSON: That should give enough time.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Subject

to

the

investigations

on

the

salary

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Issue ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t a s I s t a n d h e r e n o w C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

It does seem to me it might be the appropriate

s u b j e c t m a t t e r f o r a n e x c h a n g e o f a ff i d a v i t s , w e w o u l d h a v e t o e v a l u a t e
t h e a ff i d a v i t s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: When we receive them as we always do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 77 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR: In order to determine whether it is necessary to probe
further through oral evidence ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: But as I stand here now it does seem to be the type
o f m a t t e r t h a t c o u l d b e a d d r e s s e d o n a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

O k a y.

O k a y.

I think let us work on the basis

therefore – I think is there somebody who will talk to those who do
l o g i s t i c s t o t r y a n d m o v e M r M a n y i ’s f l i g h t .
M R M A N Y I : To 4 o ’ c l o c k .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To 4 o ’ c l o c k .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e w i l l m a k e a r r a n g e m e n t s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: If he does not get a 4 o’ clock one the earliest after
that. Is that fine?
M R M A N Y I : J a . T h a t i s f i n e C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your cooperation Mr Manyi.
M R M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s . L e t u s p r o c e e d t h e n .

20

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

So I was – we were dealing with

your interaction with Minister Chabane when he made the proposal to
you of options and I was probing with you whether you raised at all the
q u e s t i o n o f y o u n o t a t t h a t p o i n t b e i n g w i t h i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r.
Did I understand your evidence to be you had no discussion about that?
M R M A N Y I : N o t a t a l l C h a i r.

Page 78 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR:

So you did not query with him how you could be

transferred to another department despite the fact that you – there had
been a previous decision by Minister Mdladlana to dismiss you?
MR MANYI:

No.

I had never recognised that decision.

I understood

myself to be on precautionary suspension and I repeat, because I was
g e t t i n g m y s a l a r y. S o I u n d e r s t o o d t o b e o n p r e c a u t i o n a r y s u s p e n s i o n .
So if and I knew that on the 28th the charges that or allegations that
were

preferred

against

me

were

abandoned

b a s i c a l l y,

because

Minister Mdladlana now thought she has got a short cut to deal with
10

t h i s m a t t e r.
So I knew that the only most logical thing is to re-instate me
a s i t w e r e , b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g r e a l l y s t a n d i n g i n m y w a y. T h e r e
were – the 28th was the day to sit and deal with this matter and on that
day this thing was abandoned.

So there was nothing really in –

standing. The probation termination that she was doing it was doing –
he did not even follow process.
He broke all the rules of the Labour Relations. So it was not
going to stand. So the only logical thing – I was the DG of Labour and
I understood these things. So the only thing that was left was just to
20

be put back. As to the details of when and how and all of that I knew
that somehow they would be taken care of.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u i n d i c a t e d e a r l i e r i n y o u r t e s t i m o n y t h a t y o u r a i s e d
the issue of the charges against you with Minister Oliphant.

Is that

correct?
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t o n e s e c o n d M s H o f m e y r.

Page 79 of 151

Do we know whether

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
s o m e o n e i s t a l k i n g t o t h o s e w h o m u s t m o v e M r M a n y i ’s f l i g h t ? I s t h e r e
somebody attending to that?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . T h e y a r e i n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. Mr Manyi I understood your evidence to
be you did not – you did raise the issue of the charges facing you when
you interacted with Minister Oliphant. Is that correct?
M R M A N Y I : J a . C h a r g e s / a l l e g a t i o n s . Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

But you have just said in your evidence that your

understanding was that they had been abandoned.

Why were you

raising abandoned charges with the Minister then?
MR MANYI:

No.

No.

No.

No.

picture of what was happening.

I had to give the Minister the full
I probably would – ja.

I had to give

her the full picture of what was happening and that included that part.
I t w a s p a r t o f t h e s t o r y.

There is no way that you could go and you

brief the Minister and then you bring dribs and drabs of information.
Yo u m u s t g i v e t h e f u l l p i c t u r e .

So I would have said that in the – in

that discussion.
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

Thank

you

and

we

saw

the

letter

between

Minister Baloyi and Minister Oliphant indicating that if she were to
bring you back and withdraw the termination she would then need to
make a decision as to whether to continue with the misconduct charges
against you. Did you have any discussions with her about that?
M R M A N Y I : N o t a t a l l C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Were you surprised to learn that they were not

Page 80 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
proceeded with?
MR MANYI: I beg your pardon.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Were you surprised that they were not proceeded

with?
MR MANYI:

No.

I was not surprised, because as I said I knew they

were abandoned on the 28th.

That was my understanding.

That the

lawyers that were tasked to deal with this matter came to a conclusion
t h a t n o p o i n t i n c a r r y i n g t h i s f u r t h e r. P a r t o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I w a s g i v e n
last night is the recordal of that meeting.
10

It is here.

That – it was

decided that let us just stop this thing, because there is a shortcut that
we can take.
A D V H O F M E Y R : J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d C h a i r. I a b s o l u t e l y a c c e p t t h a t t h e
transcript

of

adjourned.

that

meeting

indicates

that

the

proceedings

were

It is a separate matter whether the charges were

abandoned at that proceeding or not, but I will not debate that further
with Mr Manyi.
If we can then Mr Manyi go just to one or two follow up
questions on your interactions with the former President in relation to
your position after the decision of Minister Mdladlana to terminate you.
20

Yo u i n d i c a t e d t h a t y o u d i d h a v e a n i n t e r a c t i o n w i t h h i m . C a n y o u p l a c e
that in time at all?
MR MANYI: I cannot place that in time, but it would be in the middle of
that precautionary suspension. I really cannot place the time.
ADV HOFMEYR: And this I assume would have occurred after the end
of October 2010?

Page 81 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: I do not recall.
ADV HOFMEYR:

O k a y.

Thank you.

How would you describe your

relationship with former President Zuma?
MR MANYI: Ja. President Zuma Chairperson is a very friendly person.
He gets along with a lot of people and so on. So I had – like he – l let
m e p u t i t t h i s w a y. P r e s i d e n t Z u m a h a d a l o t o f g o o d r e l a t i o n s h i p s w i t h
a lot of people and I was one of them.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you and how would you describe your

relationship with the Gupta family prior to your move into GCIS in
10

F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 ?
MR MANYI: There was no relationship.
ADV HOFMEYR: Not at all?
MR MANYI:

Ja.

Look relationship is – relationship Chair is a strong

term.
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
MR MANYI: Whether I knew about them and the relationship with them
a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t m a t t e r s .

I knew about them, but relationship with

them at that point. No.
ADV HOFMEYR: Had you had personal interactions with them prior to
20

that point?
M R M A N Y I : N o . I d o n o t r e c a l l C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Do you recall being invited to a New Age friendship

c e l e b r a t i o n i n J a n u a r y 2 0 11 ?
M R M A N Y I : I s a w t h a t i n t h e p a c k C h a i r. T h a t w a s S o u t h A f r i c a – t h a t
was a cricket game or something.

South Africa and India and all of

Page 82 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
that.

I saw that.

Ja.

I remember that and I was invited there in my

c a p a c i t y a s t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e B M F.
ADV HOFMEYR: And did you attend?
M R M A N Y I : J a . D e f i n i t e l y I a t t e n d e d C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

And why do you say it was in your capacity as

President of BMF?
MR MANYI: Because in the document it actually even shows that in the
– I j u s t d o n o t k n o w w h e r e t o f i n d i t . I f M s H o ff m a n c a n j u s t h e l p u s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C e r t a i n l y.
10

M R M A N Y I : H o f m e y r. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . S o r r y. O n ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t i s a t p a g e 11 5 o f E x h i b i t N N 5 .
M R M A N Y I : 11 5 . J a . S o w h a t i s y o u r q u e s t i o n a g a i n ?
ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u i n d i c a t e d t h a t y o u w e r e i n v i t e d i n y o u r c a p a c i t y

as President of BMF ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I f y o u . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV HOFMEYR: And I queried how you came to that conclusion.
MR MANYI: If you go to page 122.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
M R M A N Y I : T h e r e i s m y n a m e t h e r e a n d t h e r e i s P r e s i d e n t B M F.
20

ADV HOFMEYR: This guest list is this something you had seen prior to
receiving the file last night?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . T h i s i s w h a t I g o t i n t h e f i l e l a s t n i g h t .
ADV HOFMEYR: So you had not seen this guest list prior to last night?
MR MANYI: This guest list?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .

Page 83 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI:

U n l e s s – I t h i n k t h i s i s p a r t o f t h o s e – n o , n o C h a i r.

I

have not seen it. I think – but it is part of those famously known Gupta
leaks e-mails and so on and I did deal with this matter even initially
with Advocate Maleka. So that is why I would remember more or less.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d . T h e i n v i t e t o y o u i s a t p a g e 11 5 . T h e
reason why I queried your understanding that you had been invited in
that capacity is the invite does not seem to denote that. So I was just
wondering at the time that you were invited did you understand that you
were being invited in that capacity or did you not understand the
10

capacity in which you ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: No.
ADV HOFMEYR: Were being invited?
MR MANYI:

No.

I knew – BMF Presidents get invited by all these

c o r p o r a t e s C h a i r. S o t h i s w a s j u s t o n e o f t h o s e t h i n g s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
M R M A N Y I : B u t w h a t i n f a c t w h e n I w a s l o o k i n g a t t h i s l a s t n i g h t C h a i r.
Just to deal with the inference in this whole discussion.

It is quite

important to note that there are VVIP tables where the Gupta people
were and who was in those tables – on those reserved high tables. So
20

I am not in those tables Chairperson.
There is a whole list of very important people that are in
these tables. I was not in those tables. In fact if you look even in the
c a t e g o r y h e r e I w a s o n o t h e r e - m a i l s s e n t . T h i s i s w h a t i s h e r e C h a i r.
So it was not like I was one of those people that were really targeted. I
was just one of the many people that they invited.

Page 84 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you Mr Manyi and I wonder whether you are

aware that there was evidence given at the Commission in August of
this year by Mr Simons and Mr Hlongwane.

Are you aware of that

evidence?
MR MANYI: I saw them on TV here, but I do not have the details.
ADV HOFMEYR: I think you might have received a Rule 3.3 Notice in
relation to Mr Simons’ evidence. Is that correct?
M R M A N Y I : O h . J a . Ye s . Ye s . Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

Amongst the things that Mr Simons testified about

was he said that it had been relayed to him by Minister Chabane that
he was not keen to appoint you in – well – to facilitate the transfer to
GCIS. Did Minister Chabane convey that to you ever?
M R M A N Y I : N o . N e v e r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

N e v e r.

Do you have any to dispute Mr Simons’

evidence in that regard?
MR MANYI: I do not know if he has any evidence to back up what he
said in the first place and there is – and I did respond to that invite –
that correspondence that is – I was told I am implicated. I said what is
i m p l i c a t i o n h e r e . Yo u a r e n o t i m p l i c a t e d h e r e . H e i s j u s t s a y i n g t h i n g s .
I think that guy just really wanted to be on TV to be honest.

20

H e j u s t c a m e a n d h e p u t w o r d s i n M r C h a b a n e ’s m o u t h .

That no one

can prove otherwise. So I did not want to come here and talk about a
deceased person and you say he said. That I thought was a waste of
time.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi you answered my question as to whether

Page 85 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
you had a basis to dispute what Mr Simons says Mr Chabane said to
him by saying Mr Simons did not have evidence to back it up.
M R M A N Y I : D i d n o t h a v e e v i d e n c e . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s a s e p a r a t e m a t t e r. I a m a s k i n g w h e t h e r y o u
have any basis to dispute what Mr Simons says Mr Chabane said to
him.
MR MANYI:
question.

No Chairperson.

This is very odd.

This is a wrong question.

This is a wrong

The question here is that

Brent Simons comes here and says Mr Chabane said one, two, three,
10

four and again I ...(indistinct). I mean what has that got to do with me
Chair?
CHAIRPERSON:

Is your answer I do not know what Mr Chabane may

or may not have said in the conversation with her if there was such a
conversation ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : Ye s a n d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: And that is all I can say?
MR MANYI:

Ja.

No.

That is and there is no legitimate expectation

t h a t I s h o u l d k n o w. S o i t i s a t o t a l l y . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
20

MR MANYI: Irrelevant and irrational question to ask me and to say do I
have a basis to say he is wrong. As if I should have the basis to do –
to know whatever Mr Chabane thinks. No. It this is ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well you ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: It is an unfair question.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well you see some of these things you know these

Page 86 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
are not legal proceedings like in a court.

They are not court

proceedings, but to a very large extent things that happen in a court
set up are used. Now the reason why Ms Hofmeyr asked that question
is because she probably says look in case what that witness said
becomes important at some stage in the future.
We must give Mr Manyi an opportunity to say whether he has
issues with that kind of evidence.

Does he dispute it?

Now you say

look I was not there. I do not know if that conversation took place, so I
r e a l l y d o n o t k n o w, b u t w h a t y o u m i g h t b e a b l e t o s a y i s f o r a r g u m e n t
10

s a k e y o u k n o w I k n o w t h a t w i t n e s s , h e i s a n a b s o l u t e l i a r, h e l i e s a l o t ,
whatever he said can’t be true or I know he has something against me
a n d t h a t ’s w h y h e c a m e h e r e a n d h e s a i d t h a t i t c a n ’ t b e t r u e , b u t y o u
might not be able to say anything like that, you might say I don’t know
whether what he says was told to him by Mr Chabane was told to him or
not, I wasn’t there and I don’t particularly know why he might want to
lie about Mr Chabane if he is lying but I wasn’t there.
So sometimes that is what happens. I mean yesterday for you
I think you were here, Mr Maseko was being asked a question about
why Mr Maloyi would tell an untruth and say he consulted with him

20

before he was transferred from GCIS if actually that didn’t happen, and
M r M a s e k o ’s a n s w e r w a s w e l l y o u k n o w m a y b e h i s s p e c u l a t i o n m i g h t
not be a good thing, but maybe he is confusing what was discussed at
a n o t h e r m e e t i n g i n J u n e / J u l y 2 0 11 o r w a s i t 2 0 1 2 , J u l y 2 0 11 I t h i n k w i t h
a meeting that didn’t take place, so sometimes a witness can come up
with something that might assist to say okay maybe that witness is not

Page 87 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
a c t u a l l y l y i n g b u t h e i s c o n f u s i n g c e r t a i n t h i n g s , s o t h a t ’s t h e r e a s o n I
t h i n k w h y.
MR MANYI:

Maybe then Chair closer to that I could say my

understanding of the relationship of Minister Chabane and – it was his
PA , I j u s t f o r g e t i s n a m e n o w, v e r y – h e w a s h e r e , w h a t w a s t h i s g u y ’s
name?
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

W h a t ’s t h e f i r s t n a m e ?

ADV HOFMEYR:
10

Mr Hlongwane who was his Private Secretary?

I’d have to get his statement, just give me a moment.

Abednigo.
MR MANYI:

A b e d n i g o , y e s s o r r y, I h a d a m e n t a l b l o c k .

Yo u s e e C h a i r

if this was said by Abednigo it would carry a lot of weight because of
my understanding of the closeness of Abednigo with Mr Chabane. Brett
Simons he had a relationship with Mr Chabane but it is not my
understanding that it was at that level of having this kind of discussion,
so ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

There was also evidence from Mr

Simons that Minister Chabane had conveyed to him a concern about
20

appointing you because you were embroiled in a scandal at the time.
Did Mr Chabane discuss that with you at all when you met with him?
MR MANYI:

No not at all.

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

And at any point thereafter?

N o n e v e r.

ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Simons’ evidence was also that Minister Chabane

Page 88 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
said people in communication should not become the news, did you
have a discussion with Mr Chabane about that at all?
MR MANYI:

No that was, that kind of statement was part of the

s t r a t c o m l i n e t h a t ’s w h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n s a y i n g . I m e a n w h e n I a r r i v e d
at the Department from day one that comment was made, so no Mr
Chabane never said anything like that.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi at the end of the expiry of your contract it

was not renewed by Minister Chabane, is that correct?
MR MANYI:
10

It was not renewed by Public Service yes.

ADV HOFMEYR:

Do you dispute that it was for Minister Chabane to

determine whether to renew it?
MR MANYI:

Well Minister Chabane would have – look the – when I –

that contract Chairperson did not have an obligation to be renewed, so
there was no expectation from my side that it should be renewed so I
don’t know if I am misunderstanding the question, I never expected it to
be renewed because that was never the original understanding, it was a
fixed contract.
ADV HOFMEYR:

No I was just in my answer – in your answer you said

it wasn’t renewed by DPSA and that was in response to a question
20

about Minister Chabane having decided not to renew you so I was
seeking to clarify whether you take issue with the notion that it was Mr
Chabane that had to take the decision?
MR MANYI:

Mr Chabane would have to make a recommendation to the

President, he would not have been able to do that on his own.
ADV HOFMEYR:

The evidence of Mr Simons was that the President

Page 89 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
was not happy when Minister Chabane communicated that to him, do
you have any knowledge of that?
MR MANYI:

I h a v e n o k n o w l e d g e o f t h a t C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you. Mr Manyi I would then like to conclude

o n t h i s a s p e c t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e i f I m a y, d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t – I t h i n k i t
has been borne out by your testimony today that it is the President who
has the – who must decide whether to transfer Director-Generals.
MR MANYI:

C o r r e c t C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:
10

And I would like to put to you what my observations

a r e i n s o f a r a s t h e f a c t s b e t w e e n t h e 2 5 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 11 a n d t h e 2 n d o f
F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 a r e , t o g i v e y o u a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o c o m m e n t t o t h e e x t e n t
that you wish to do so, or have any knowledge of the facts on the basis
of which you may dispute them. There is evidence from Mr Maseko, Mr
Simons and Mr Hlongwane that Minister Chabane was instructed by
former President Zuma to remove Mr Maseko from GCIS, do you have
any basis to refute that?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, j u s t r e p e a t t h e q u e s t i o n .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Indeed. I indicated that there was evidence from Mr

Maseko, Mr Simons and Mr Hlongwane that Minister Chabane had been
20

instructed by former President Zuma to remove Mr Maseko from GCIS,
and my question to Mr Manyi was does he have any information that
would show that that evidence is not correct?
CHAIRPERSON:

I am not sure why he would need to indicate whether

he accepts it or doesn’t accept the evidence as correct.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Chair just to be clear what I was searching for in the

Page 90 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
question it was whether he had any information that he could share with
us to indicate that it was incorrect.

I t ’s a l o n g t h e l i n e s o f t h e

q u e s t i o n s p r e v i o u s l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe the way to put it would be whether Mr Manyi

w h e t h e r y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e a s t o w h o i n i t i a t e d M r M a s e k o ’s
t r a n s f e r, d o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e o f t h a t ?
MR MANYI:

N o – d i r e c t a n s w e r n o C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

Thank you.

In relation to your move into GCIS the

...(intervenes).
MR MANYI:

S o r r y C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:

Can I just make sure that that no is not a no to the

question that she was asking because the question she was asking
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no you were saying no to the question I am

asking?
MR MANYI:

No to the question you’re asking yes, ja.

ADV HOFMEYR:
20

Mr Manyi in order for you to be transferred into GCIS

the decision of Minister Mdladlana to dismiss you had to be reversed,
do you accept that?
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on, just before that I have been given a note to
t h e e ff e c t t h a t y o u r f l i g h t M r M a n y i h a s b e e n b o o k e d f o r 1 6 : 0 0 s o t h a t
arrangement seems to have succeeded.
MR MANYI:

C h a i r t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h e C h a i r ’s m i c .

Page 91 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: Oh it is on, is it better now?
MR MANYI:

Ja, much better yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, I w a s s a y i n g t h a t I h a v e b e e n g i v e n a n o t e

confirming that your flight has been booked for 16:00.
MR MANYI:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

Thank you, would you like to repeat that

question Ms Hofmeyr?
ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s i n o r d e r f o r M r M a n y i t o b e t r a n s f e r r e d t o G C I S a

d e c i s i o n h a d t o b e t a k e n t o r e v e r s e M i n i s t e r M d l a d l a n a ’s d e c i s i o n t o
10

dismiss you, do you accept that?
MR MANYI:

I accept that I had to be brought back from precautionary

s u s p e n s i o n C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Do you accept that you were very actively engaged

to be brought back from a position where you were not employed by the
Department?
MR MANYI:

I accept that, I wanted my precautionary suspension to be

lifted and I was talking to everybody I could speak to.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Do you accept that until two days before the transfer

took place you were not in the employ of the Public Service?
20

MR MANYI:

I d o n ’ t h a v e a n y e v i d e n c e o f t h a t C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:

So the fact that a decision on termination needed to

be withdrawn on the 31st of January does not constitute that evidence?
MR MANYI:

The 31st decision by Minister Oliphant, which happened,

and I didn’t have the details of the dates and all of that as to when she
would have written a letter in the first place maybe to Minister Baloyi

Page 92 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
and all of that, I didn’t have those details with me, but all I knew is that
following my discussion with Minister Chabane I needed to be – well in
the first place Chair my understand to be honest was that if you were
o n p r e c a u t i o n a r y s u s p e n s i o n y o u a r e s t i l l i n t h e s y s t e m , a n d t h a t ’s w h y
you get paid.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s t i l l e m p l o y e d ?
MR MANYI:

Yo u a r e s t i l l e m p l o y e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:
10

Ja that was my real understanding and then I keep saying

t h a t I h a v e e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e I w a s g e t t i n g t h e s a l a r y, s o I h a v e
tangible evidence to back up my contention so when the transfer
h a p p e n e d I j u s t – y o u k n o w i t w a s a n o - b r a i n e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I should put this question. In order for you to
b e b r o u g h t b a c k t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t , b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h a t ’s t h e w o r d i n g ,
terminology you used, you said when you I think had a meeting with
Minister Oliphant at the Sheraton Hotel you wanted to be brought back
to the Department. Am I correct so far?
MR MANYI:

Ye s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h i s d e c i s i o n t h a t h a d b e e n

taken by Minister Mdladlana did you think it might be something to be
done in order for you to be brought back?
MR MANYI:

Ye s C h a i r, I t h o u g h t t h e p r e c a u t i o n a r y s u s p e n s i o n h a d t o

be lifted.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h e r e i s t h e p r e c a u t i o n a r y s u s p e n s i o n a n d
the decision to put you on precautionary suspension was taken months

Page 93 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ahead of the end of October 2010.
MR MANYI:

Ye s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, and the decision by Minister Mdladlana not to

confirm your appointment or to dismiss you, whatever the terminology
is that one uses, seems to have happened roundabout the end of
October 2010.
MR MANYI:

Ye s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: So there was that decision that you know – you knew
that Minister Mdladlana had taken, you didn’t think he had power to
10

make such a decision but he had taken it, so the question that I am
asking was whether in order for you to be brought back to the
D e p a r t m e n t y o u a c c e p t e d t h a t t h a t d e c i s i o n , m a y b e l e t ’s s a y t h e
decision that you might not have recognised, that decision might have
t o b e w i t h d r a w n a n y w a y, i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t – i s t h a t o n e o f t h e
things that you thought maybe needed to be done in order for it to be
brought back?
MR MANYI:

Ja yes Chair and I understood the lasting decision a

legitimate decision I understood it to be the precautionary suspension
one and so to remedy that somebody must undo that.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi a great deal happened in those days

b e t w e e n t h e 2 5 t h o f J a n u a r y a n d t h e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y.

I wonder if you

have any insight for the Commission as to why so much had to happen
in that urgent space of time, can you shed any light on that?
MR MANYI:

N o I h a v e n o i d e a C h a i r, I w a s j u s t – i t h a p p e n e d , f r o m

Page 94 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
my side and I really feel sorry as to the circumstances that Mr Maseko
found himself in but …
CHAIRPERSON: So when Mr Chabane spoke to you about two options
in

regard

to

transfer

you

were

in

your

mind

on

precautionary

suspension, is that right?
MR MANYI:

Ye s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Do you know what his understanding was, do you

know whether he understood you to be in the Department actively
working as DG or did he understand that you were on some suspension
10

or special leave or whether he understood that a decision had been
made to fire you, do you know what his own understanding was as he
spoke to you?
MR MANYI:

As he spoke to me, he spoke to me as somebody who is

in the system.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MANYI:

He spoke to me as somebody who is in the system, so if I

was dismissed in the true sense of the word that discussion would not
have happened, so in my view he spoke to me with the understanding
that it is one of those fallouts and somebody is in suspension but still
20

employed.
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you know whether he did have an understanding

that you and Mr Mdladlana had had fallout?
MR MANYI:

It was public Chair; I am sure he must have known that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but in the discussion between the two of you it did
not arise?

Page 95 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI:

It was not an issue; it was not an issue at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi I am struggling a little bit with your sense

that Minister Chabane would have known nothing about your dismissal
a n d l e t m e e x p l a i n w h y, y o u r i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h M i n i s t e r B a l o y i s i n c e t h a t
letter of the 29th of October referred repeatedly to your dismissal, your
e ff o r t s t o t r y a n d g e t i t r e v e r s e d . T h e y a l s o r e f e r r e d w e s a w t h e l e t t e r
between Minister Baloyi and Minister Oliphant recognising that that
d e c i s i o n w o u l d h a v e t o b e w i t h d r a w n b y h e r a n d t h a t ’s t h e b a c k d r o p t o
10

at least some evidence that we have received from Mr Baloyi that he
had interacted with Minister Chabane about the prospects of moves. Is
it conceivable that Mr Baloyi wouldn’t have communicated that to
Minister Chabane?
MR MANYI:

J a , w e ’ r e g o i n g t o g o b a c k t o t a i l s p i n C h a i r.

I think

t h e r e ’s a c o l l o q u i a l u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f d i s m i s s a l , I h a v e s a i d t h i s b e f o r e ,
and that was the going term, but all those that understand the law
properly knew that that could not happen without the President, so it
was just some unlawful issue that was on the table that could be
resolved, and so and so, and then did they resolve their unlawfulness
20

to restore things to normality?
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi I would then like to just get your comment.

There are numerous documents in the file that you would have looked
at overnight, indicating steps taken within the Department of Labour to
g i v e e ff e c t t o o u r t e r m i n a t i o n , a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h o s e d o c u m e n t s ?
MR MANYI:

No I saw them last night.

Page 96 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR:

It went as far as to confirm that you had no books

o u t s t a n d i n g i n t h e l i b r a r y, d i d y o u s e e t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
MR MANYI:

J a I s a w t h a t C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:

So were there interactions between you and the

Department about these matters?
MR MANYI:

N o , I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r a n y C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a n y i l e t ’s t h e n m o v e i f w e m a y t o t h e e v i d e n c e

o f M s W i l l i a m s C h a i r, u n l e s s t h e r e a r e a s p e c t s f r o m y o u o n t h i s
...(intervenes).
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h a t ’s f i n e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

M r M a n y i y o u h a v e g i v e n a v e r y, v e r y

d e t a i l e d a ff i d a v i t i n r e s p o n s e t o M s W i l l i a m s , y o u c r i t i c i s e h e r o n – I
t h i n k i t ’s i n e x c e s s o f t e n t i m e s a s h a v i n g l i e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d
you recommend that charges of perjury be brought, is that a fair
summary?
MR MANYI:

Ye s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

S o I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ff i d a v i t t o t a k e l y i n g t o t h i s

Commission very seriously?
MR MANYI:
20

Ye s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

I would like to start with an aspect of the evidence of

Ms Williams that relates to ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry Ms Hofmeyr to which bundle should we

move now?
ADV HOFMEYR:

R i g h t , s o w h a t y o u h a v e i s y o u h a v e a l r e a d y, N N 2

w h i c h i s M r M a n y i ’s r e s p o n s e t o M s W i l l i a m s b u t w h a t I a l s o h a v e

Page 97 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
a v a i l a b l e f o r y o u i s M s W i l l i a m s ’ o w n a ff i d a v i t a n d s o i f I c o u l d b e g
leave to hand that up.

That is NN6.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a n y i h a s a c o p y a l r e a d y. C h a i r y o u m a y r e c a l l

from the evidence of Ms Williams that – well it was the evidence of Ms
Williams and then the evidence of Mr Manyi on the last occasion, you
had requested that there be further information obtained by the
Commission to give an indication of the comparative spend between
various newspapers at the pertinent time.
10

The reason why there was

some information that Mr Manyi had provided to the Commission, but it
became unclear as to the amounts that were being paid to News
Houses as a conglomerate as distinct from the various newspapers
themselves, so that was one thing you requested, it was the GCIS
s p e n d a n d t h a t ’s a n d t h a t ’s a s p e c t t h a t M s W i l l i a m s t a k e s u p i n h e r
a ff i d a v i t .
On the last occasion that Mr Manyi gave evidence he was also
asked about his support for the New Age and he gave evidence there
a n d y o u r e p e a t e d i t i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t i n r e s p o n s e t o M s W i l l i a m s ’
a ff i d a v i t , i f I c o u l d t a k e y o u t h e r e , i t i s i n N N 2 a t p a g e 2 1 .

20

M r M a n y i i f y o u w i l l j u s t r e a d w h a t y o u s a y i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t
paragraph 63 on page 21.
MR MANYI:

Okay the thrust of my argument for the New Age was

value for money based on quantum dissemination and their anti-hostile
yet balanced posture towards government.
ADV HOFMEYR:

And then further down on that page at paragraph 65

Page 98 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
sort of two thirds into that paragraph you record there for GCIS
c o m m u n i c a t i o n i s s e r v e d e l i v e r y.

If government messages are not

r e a c h i n g c o m m u n i t i e s t h e n G C I S i s n o t d o i n g i t s j o b , t h a t ’s y o u r
evidence, is that correct?
MR MANYI:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:

I n y o u r e v i d e n c e o n t h e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r, l a s t y e a r,

you gave an explanation about why target markets are important, do
you recall that?
MR MANYI:
10

Ye s C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:

As I have that evidence you said that – it was quite

an interesting way to put it, you said Departments do not advertise
because they are bored, you said they advertise because they want to
communicate a particular message to certain people to say we want
this message to go to this target market, do you recall that evidence?
MR MANYI:

Ja I recall that.

ADV HOFMEYR:

Just for the record Chair it is at page 129 of the

t r a n s c r i p t o f t h e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r.

Mr Manyi with that backdrop in

place I want to make sure that you and I are on the same page about
o n e o r t w o a s p e c t s , c i r c u l a t i o n o f n e w s p a p e r s i s d i ff e r e n t t o t h e i r
20

readership, do we agree on that?
MR MANYI:

Ye s s u r e .

ADV HOFMEYR:

And the Audit Bureau of Circulation colloquially

referred to as ABC, deals with circulation, correct?
MR MANYI:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

ADV HOFMEYR:

And that is distinct from readership which I want to

Page 99 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
come to in a moment. I want to just indicate to you that in the evidence
o f l a s t w e e k b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n t h e r e w a s a n a ff i d a v i t e n t e r e d f r o m
ABC, which indicated that TNA was never a member of ABC nor
accredited, does that accord with your knowledge?
MR MANYI:

Ye s , c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

And as I understood your previous evidence TNA had

relied on its own auditors to provide circulation numbers, is that
correct?
MR MANYI:
10

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

And did you rely on those figures when you gave

support to placing advertisements in the TNA?
MR MANYI:

C h a i r l e t m e p u t i t t h i s w a y, t h e d a y t o d a y o p e r a t i o n s

t h a t ’s w h y p a r t o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s I h a d m a d e t o t h i s C o m m i s s i o n
is that they should invite the guy who was doing the actual job, who is
D o n a l d D i p h o k o , t h a t i s t h e m e d i a b u y e r, h e i s t h e g u y t h a t m a k e s t h i s
kind of a call and does that.

Here I am talking as the head of

d e p a r t m e n t s u p p o r t i n g w h a t m y p e o p l e a r e d o i n g a s i t w e r e , t h a t ’s w h a t
I was doing, so whatever they were doing the nitty-gritty of those things
i s d o n e a t a d i ff e r e n t l e v e l b u t o v e r a l l I s u p p o r t w h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g ,
20

but I was – there was not a day where I went to sign that this must go
left, this must go right, not a day that I did that, but I knew that it was
d o n e a t a d i ff e r e n t l e v e l a n d I w a s s u p p o r t i v e o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g
there.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Would it cause you concern if you understood that

that media buying department within GCIS was relying on non-

Page 100 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
accredited circulation figures from a publication?
MR MANYI:

No I wouldn’t be concerned Chair because I understand

t h e i n d u s t r y. I w o u l d n ’ t b e c o n c e r n e d a t a l l b e c a u s e f i r s t l y y o u n e e d t o
– people need to understand that this ABC is something run by call it
media cartel so to speak. In South Africa there is only the big four in
media.

So these are the people that do this and this thing actually

Chair has got serious implications for those that want to get into the
m e d i a s p a c e b e c a u s e w h a t h a p p e n s C h a i r t h e y s i t t h e r e , t h e b i g f o u r,
y o u r T I S A B l a c k s t a r, t h e y h a v e g o t a n e w n a m e n o w, a n d y o u r C a x t o n
10

a n d y o u r N a s p e r s a n d t h e r e ’s a n i n d e p e n d e n t g r o u p a s w e l l , s o t h e r e ’s
f o u r o f t h e s e g r o u p s , t h e y b a s i c a l l y r u n t h e s h o w, e v e r y b o d y – s o w h a t
they do with these audited figures of theirs, that figure becomes a –
something that a media buying house uses to decide where to place
ads and so on, and depending on what comes out of there also talks to
the price, the rate card that they charge for that particular advert, so
what this thing does is that if a new player coming in you don’t have
enough of the circulation to be able to be a member of this elite group
and now you have got media buyers that are sitting and all they want to
deal with is the elite and yet we’ve got a government position that

20

wants to broaden and I have made this point before that government is
so serious about helping media that government even have a media
d e v e l o p m e n t a g e n c y, M D D A , t h a t i s m e a n t t o e n c o u r a g e a l l o f t h o s e
people that are in the MDDA Chair are not members of ABC, but we
advertise with them.
So if my – if the team I used to lead wanted to advertise to

Page 101 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
people that are not in ABC I would encourage that because that would
grow many voices, one message, many voices used to be the motto, so
ja I would not have a problem with that at all.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi my understanding of the process with ABC

i s t h a t y o u b e c o m e a m e m b e r, y o u h a n d o v e r y o u r i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t
circulation it is interrogated by ABC and then you get a certificate of
circulation. Is your understanding the same as mine?
MR MANYI:

J a , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:
10

Why could there possibly be a problem for a new

e n t r a n t t o b e c o m e a m e m b e r, h a n d o v e r i t s c i r c u l a t i o n f i g u r e s , h a v e
them audited by the accredited body and then get a certificate
confirming their circulation?
MR MANYI:

It is an election that you make to be part of that group

Chairperson, it is an election that you make, so if you decide that you
w i l l h a v e y o u r f i g u r e a u d i t e d d i ff e r e n t l y t h e r e i s n o l a w t h a t s a y s y o u
must use ABC, it is your democratic right not to use them. There is no
l a w.
ADV HOFMEYR:

No indeed it is the recognised industry body though

is it not?
20

MR MANYI:

Like many are. I mean even auditors are recognised.

ADV HOFMEYR:

So did you ever make any enquiries as to the

i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m T N A’s a u d i t o r s t h a t w e r e b e i n g s u p p l i e d t o G C I S ?
MR MANYI:

Ja, see this is another operational issue Chair that

somebody at that level they will do a deal with those nitty-gritties but I
w o u l d k n o w t h a t a s t h e y d o t h e s e t h i n g s t h e y d o t h o s e c h e c k s , s o t h a t ’s

Page 102 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
d o n e a t a d i ff e r e n t l e v e l , I d i d n ’ t d o t h a t p e r s o n a l l y, b e c a u s e i t w a s a
d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i t y, s o s o m e b o d y D D G l e v e l o r C h i e f D i r e c t o r l e v e l w i l l
be doing that.
ADV HOFMEYR:

If you were to be told that no attempt had been made

to obtain those audited figures prior to placing of advertisements by
GCIS in TNA would that cause you concern?
MR MANYI:

Not even check the audited figures?

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:
10

Ye s .

Ja, that would cause concern yes.

ADV HOFMEYR:

O k a y l e t ’s m o v e t o t h e a u d i t e d f i g u r e s w h e n t h e y

might have been available.

Is it not the role of an independent body

like ABC to be able to interrogate whatever the auditors are handing
over as alleged sales numbers, is that not a role that an independent
accreditation body plays?
MR MANYI:

N o , t h e y d o t h a t f o r t h e i r m e m b e r s C h a i r, t h e y d o n ’ t d o

that for everybody on the street.
ADV HOFMEYR:

But unless you are going to an independent body to

get that certificate then when you decide to place spend with TNA all
you would be relying on is the sales numbers that come out of the
20

audited financial statements of that business, is that correct?
MR MANYI:

No, no what the auditors audit is the print-run which is

the same as like circulation, so that is what they would audit, so if
s o m e b o d y i f a r e g i s t e r e d a u d i t o r s a i d t h e y s i g n o ff o n t h e s e a r e t h e
numbers those are the numbers.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Are you aware that freebies, newspapers that are

Page 103 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
handed out for free, shouldn’t be counted in the circulation numbers?
MR MANYI:

Ye s I a m a w a r e b e c a u s e t h e y – t h e r e i s a p r i c e i s s u e a n d

you see this is – I am ...(indistinct) to raise this Ms Hofmeyr because
this is part of the business model that are in place.

Now you find that

a n o r g a n i s a t i o n l e t ’s s a y l i k e T N A h a s g o t t h a t u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e y
must assist government as a partner to spread the word about
government work, some of their copies would be sold, some would be
sold on subscription and some would be sold on the corner and actually
when you say freebies I am not even aware that they were giving
10

freebies, but they would make sure that there is as wide a circulation
as possible, ja, in fact they would actually even leave them at the
airport some of them, and all of that ja so their aim was to make sure
that the message goes out there.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi there has been quite extensive evidence

before this Commission that TNA, I have used the colloquium freebies,
but that they were making available to State Owned Entities and
departments numerous free copies of the TNA, were you not aware of
that?
MR MANYI:
20

I u n d e r s t o o d t h o s e t o b e s u b s c r i p t i o n s C h a i r, n o t

freebies.
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

No the evidence is that they were for free.

No you see one of the reasons Chair when I took over

t h a t k i l l e d T N A i s b e c a u s e t h e b i g s u b s c r i b e r, F r e e S t a t e a n d o t h e r s ,
stopped subscribing, so that stopped the money flow so that was one of
the killer punches as it were, so your understanding and mine are not

Page 104 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
the same.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Right, if you were to be told that as a matter of fact

the TNA was distributing for free numerous of their newspapers would
you then accept that relying on audited figures that have their base
only in a print run would not be accurate.
MR MANYI:

No that doesn’t make sense, what you are saying.

If

Chairperson I have printed 100 copies, whether I have sold them or I
h a v e g i v e n t h e m a w a y I h a v e p r i n t e d 1 0 0 c o p i e s , s o w h a t d i ff e r e n c e
w a s i t m a k e w h e t h e r I h a v e s o l d t h e m o r I h a v e g i v e n t h e m a w a y, I
10

have printed 100 copies.
ADV HOFMEYR:
e a r l i e r.

Mr Manyi it matters because of an answer you gave

Yo u a c c e p t e d e a r l i e r t h a t c i r c u l a t i o n s h o u l d n o t i n c l u d e

newspapers that are given for free, do you remember giving that
answer?
MR MANYI:

T h a t ’s h o w I w a s n o t – y e s I g a v e t h a t a n s w e r, t h a t ’s h o w

they measure circulation but here we are talking about the print-run, I
a m a n s w e r i n g a d i ff e r e n t q u e s t i o n n o w, t h a t w h a t i s t h e v e r a c i t y o f
c i r c u l a t i o n o f s o m e w h e r e t h a t g i v e s t h i n g s a w a y, t h i n g s f o r f r e e , n o w
my answer is that – and to complete that therefore what is the
20

reliability of audited versus ABC, so the answer to that is simply that if
y o u h a v e p r i n t e d 1 0 0 c o p i e s y o u c a n g i v e a l l 1 0 0 c o p i e s a w a y, t h e y
don’t stop circulating in the community because you gave them for free,
so the fact that the other system requires people to pay is neither here
nor there.
CHAIRPERSON:

But isn’t the position about circulation, isn’t the

Page 105 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
question, isn’t the significance of circulation numbers that whoever
w a n t s t o k n o w w h a t a n e w s p a p e r ’s c i r c u l a t i o n i s w a n t s t o k n o w h o w
much on demand that newspaper is to the public, and that if people
spend money to buy it, they must be attaching a certain value to the
n e w s p a p e r t h a t t h e y a r e p r e p a r e d t o s p e n d m o n e y, a n d t h a t t h e
d i ff i c u l t y i f o n e s i m p l y t a k e s t h e n u m b e r o f n e w s p a p e r s t h a t h a v e b e e n
p r i n t e d i s t h a t – t h a t m i g h t n o t r e f l e c t i t s t r u e d e m a n d i f a c t u a l l y i t ’s n o t
that people buy X number of newspapers, copies per day or whatever
f r o m t h e n e w s p a p e r b u t i t ’s j u s t g i v e n f o r f r e e , i s n ’ t t h a t t h e
10

significance?
MR MANYI:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Or do I misunderstand something?
MR MANYI:

J a , l e t m e e x p l a i n t h i s C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ,
MR MANYI:

Yo u s e e t h i s w h o l e d e b a t e i s n o t a m e c h a n i c a l d e b a t e ,

b e c a u s e i f t h e C h a i r ’s t h e o r y w a s c o r r e c t t h e n e v e r y b o d y w o u l d b e
advertising in the Daily Sun.

The Daily Sun is the biggest newspaper

in town, it is the biggest – there is nobody as we speak that competes
with the Daily Sun in terms of circulation, but ...(intervenes).
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , t h a t ’s q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g .
MR MANYI:

Ye s , i t ’s t h e D a i l y S u n b u t i t i s n o t e v e r y b o d y t h a t

a d v e r t i s e s i n t h e D a i l y S u n d e s p i t e t h a t i t i s t h e b i g g e s t n e w s p a p e r,
and the reason is because of the profile of the people that are
interested in the Daily Sun are not necessarily the profile of the people
to who we want to go and explain a particular case law story and so on,

Page 106 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
they are not the type of people that would do that.
So therefore the issue ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Like a Business Day kind of ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI:

Like a Business Day yes, yes.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r t h e S t a r.
MR MANYI:
to

this,

T h a t ’s r i g h t C h a i r, b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s – t h e r e ’s t w o e l e m e n t s

t h e r e ’s

numbers

and

t h e r e ’s

a

target

market,

so

the

psychographics is part of this thing, so people that use these numbers
blindly miss that thing.
10

In my last testimony I used the word spillage

for instance, that you can go and put very valuable information but it
w i l l l a n d i n t h a t a r e n e v e r, e v e r g o i n g t o u s e i t , b e c a u s e i t i s n o t i n
their interest, so when you do advertising with a particular newspaper
you must know who are the type of people that read that particular
n e w s p a p e r, t h a t ’s y o u r t a r g e t m a r k e t , s o t h a t ’s t h e e s s e n c e o f t h i s
thing, and with the New Age the issue as well Chair is that I when I was
there the issue was to – I had a particular interest, my interest was
government interest, my interest was to disseminate government
information.
N o w t h e n t h e r e ’s p o s t u r e b y t h e A B C c r o w d , t h e p o s t u r e b y t h e

20

ABC crowd is that if you want to communicate anything take an advert
and so on, we are not going to communicate it for you, so I used to
complain that I would go and read a press statement of 10 pages and
then the next day I buy all these newspapers to see how much of that
was covered, I’ll be likely to get one sentence, and the beauty of the
New Age was that they understood that they need to disseminate this

Page 107 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
i n f o r m a t i o n , s o t h e r e f o r e i t ’s s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d e m b r a c e , t h a t
here is a newspaper that is willing to fulfil the service delivery of the
GCIS which is dissemination of information, when others when they
come to you they come to you ready with their own questions, doesn’t
m a t t e r w h a t y o u s a y, t h e y j u s t t o l e r a t e y o u , r e a d y o u t e n p a g e s a n d
they come and ask you about something that happened last week or
s o m e o t h e r s c a n d a l o r w h a t e v e r, a n d t h e y r e p o r t a b o u t h o w y o u
r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t o r w h a t e v e r, s o t h a t ’s w h a t t h e y a r e i n t e r e s t e d i n a n d
this is what happens in the media space.
10

So when I say the editorial approach of TNA was in line with
w h a t g o v e r n m e n t r e a l l y i s y e a r n i n g f o r, I s a y t h a t e v e n t o d a y, I t h i n k
g o v e r n m e n t m i s s e s T N A e v e n t o d a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi ...(intervenes).

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hofmeyr?
ADV HOFMEYR:

A p o l o g i e s , t h a n k y o u C h a i r.

T h e C h a i r ’s q u e s t i o n

related to circulation and you will recall when we began this discussion
I c o n f i r m e d w i t h y o u t h a t c i r c u l a t i o n i s d i ff e r e n t t o r e a d e r s h i p , d o y o u
recall that?
MR MANYI:
20

I make that same point in my submission.

ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s , s o y o u r a n s w e r t o t h e C h a i r a t t h e m o m e n t h a s

moved into readership which I absolutely accept is entirely – it is
critical to know what the readership of a newspaper is in order to
establish that you’re getting to the target market you want.

So take

that as given, but I would like to focus on circulation, because the
question at the moment is was it reasonable to place advertisements in

Page 108 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
the TNA where they had no accredited circulation figures and the only
o ff e r i n g f o r c i r c u l a t i o n t h a t t h e y g a v e , i f t h e y d i d g i v e i t t o G C I S , w a s
the information from auditors based on print runs and that as I
u n d e r s t a n d i t w a s w h e r e t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s t i o n c a m e f r o m , b e c a u s e p r i n t runs are not going to give you an indication of the level of demand for a
n e w s p a p e r i f t h e r e ’s a s u b s t a n t i a l p o r t i o n o f t h o s e n e w s p a p e r s t h a t a r e
b e i n g d r o p p e d a t d e p a r t m e n t s a n d S O E ’s f o r f r e e .
Let me just before I ask the question give you the background.
We have had evidence before, last week, from Mr Pretorius in which he
10

s a i d t h e c h a l l e n g e w h e n t h e y ’ r e b e i n g d r o p p e d o ff a t d e p a r t m e n t s a n d
state identities is you actually don’t know if people are picking up the
newspaper to read it, because they haven’t had a cash transaction
indicating their interest in it is that they could be picking it up to take it
home to wrap their moving goods in, so my question to you Mr Manyi is
would it be of concern to you if GCIS was making decisions to place
advertisements with TNA in a situation where the only information they
had about TNA circulation was based purely on print-run figures?
MR MANYI:

No I would not have a problem for reasons explained.

ADV HOFMEYR:
20

And those reasons relate to readership, is that

correct?
MR MANYI:

It relates to readership yes.

ADV HOFMEYR:

R i g h t l e t ’s g o t o r e a d e r s h i p b e c a u s e I p u t i t t o y o u

Mr Manyi readership is a separate issue from circulation.
MR MANYI:

I k n o w, I k n o w, b u t T N A a l s o m e a s u r e s r e a d e r s h i p .

ADV HOFMEYR:

I n d e e d , s o l e t ’s g o t o w h a t w a s k n o w n a t t h e t i m e

Page 109 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
that you took over at GCIS about the readership of TNA, and we can
f i n d t h a t i n M s W i l l i a m s ’ a ff i d a v i t , i t i s a n a n n e x u r e t h e r e , a n d t h a t
Chair is in the bundle that has been marked NN6.
For convenience Chair I submit that it be entered into the
record as Exhibit NN6.
CHAIRPERSON:

The lever arch file that contains Ms Mary Mphumla

W i l l i a m s a ff i d a v i t d a t e d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MR MANYI:

Page

ADV HOFMEYR:
10

I f y o u w i l l j u s t w a i t f o r t h e C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: Dated – do you have the dates Ms Hofmeyr?
ADV HOFMEYR:

I s h o u l d C h a i r, i f y o u w i l l g i v e m e o n e m o m e n t , I

t h i n k i t w a s t h e 2 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y, l e t m e j u s t c h e c k , I r e c a l l t h a t
because Mr Manyi made reference to it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , d a t e d 2 2 n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 9 i s t o b e m a r k e d

Exhibit NN6. Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r, a n d t h e n i f w e c a n g o t o p a g e 3 1 6

of that Exhibit NN6.
CHAIRPERSON: I see there are black and red numbers more or less at
the same place, do we stick to the red numbers, page numbers?
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

Chair I don’t have a version with red numbers, so I

am going to have to ask my – oh they’re the same, they’re the same, so
3 1 6 , y o u c a n u s e e i t h e r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d o e s l o o k l i k e i t ’s t h e s a m e n u m b e r, 3 1 6 y o u s a i d ?
ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s , 3 1 6 i n d e e d .

Mr Manyi as I understand Ms

W i l l i a m s ’ a ff i d a v i t t h i s i s a s u m m a r y t h a t h a s b e e n p u t t o g e t h e r o f t h e

Page 110 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
r e a d e r s h i p o f t h e To p Te n N e w s p a p e r s , a n d t h e n t h e T N A o v e r t h e
p e r i o d s 2 0 1 0 , 2 0 11 , 2 0 1 2 a n d 2 0 1 3 , d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h i s d o c u m e n t
in the same way as I do?
MR MANYI:

Ye s s u r e .

ADV HOFMEYR:

And what is indicated there insofar as the New Age

Newspaper is concerned which is in the bottom line of the table before
that square box.

In 2010 it indicates that it was not included for

measurement, it seems to me that may have to do with the fact that its
first newspaper was only printed on the 6th of December 2010, is that
10

correct?
MR MANYI:

Ye s c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

S o w h a t w e h a v e i n 2 0 11 r e a d e r s h i p f o r N e w A g e i s

a n i n d i c a t i o n t h a t i t i s n o t i n t h e To p Te n , t h e To p Te n a r e t h o s e t h a t
p r o c e e d e d a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h i s p a g e , a n d t h e n t h e r e ’s a 3 9 0 0 0
indicated there with an asterisk and if you go to the asterisk
explanation at the bottom of the page it says unstable and two
asterisks means highly unstable and then the comment there is:
“ L e s s t h a n 4 0 r e s p o n d e n t s c l a i m t o h a v e r e a d t h e p a p e r,
treated with caution for decision making.”
20

Do you see that?
MR MANYI:

Ye s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

So if you had been making the decisions in GCIS

w h e t h e r t o p l a c e a d v e r t i s e m e n t s i n t h e N e w A g e i n 2 0 11 w o u l d i t h a v e
caused you concern that those compiling these readership statistics
indicated

that

they

were

unstable

for

Page 111 of 151

TNA,

that

less

than

40

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
respondents have claimed to read the newspaper and that it should be
treated with caution for decision making?
MR MANYI:

N o I w o u l d n o t b e c o n c e r n e d C h a i r, b e c a u s e i t ’s a n e w

n e w s p a p e r. I t h i n k i t s t a r t e d i n 2 0 1 0 , t h i s i s c o m p a r i n g a p p l e s t o p e a r s
so if you understand how business develops you would know that the
f i r s t t h r e e y e a r s a r e t h e m o s t d i ff i c u l t y e a r s b u t i f y o u w e r e t o t a k e a
view that all those that are in the development phase must not be
s u p p o r t e d t h e n t h e y w i l l n e v e r h a v e c o m p e t i t i o n i n t h i s c o u n t r y, t h i s i s
why I have got all these monopolies, it is because of this kind of
10

attitude towards new entrants as it were.
To g o f u r t h e r C h a i r j u s t t o t a l k t o t h e i s s u e o f t a r g e t m a r k e t i n g
government has got 34 departments more or less, at a high level or
national level, if I was an advertiser and I knew that there is a
g o v e r n m e n t m a g a z i n e t h a t a l l t h e D G ’s r e a d , i t ’s o n l y 3 4 D G ’s , i f I k n e w
t h a t t h i s p u b l i c s e c t o r, t h e m a g a z i n e t h e y c a l l p u b l i c s e c t o r i f I k n e w
t h a t t h e r e ’s a p u b l i c s e c t o r m a g a z i n e t h a t e v e r y D G h a s g o t o n t h e i r
table, they read this magazine, it might have a circulation of 1 000 this
public sector magazine.
Yo u m i g h t h a v e a n o t h e r b i g m a g a z i n e o n t h e o t h e r s i d e , c a l l i t

20

K o ff i e h u i s o r Yo u o r w h a t e v e r y o u c a l l i t , i t h a s j u s t g o t a p r i n t - r u n ,
c i r c u l a t i o n w h a t e v e r o f 1 0 0 0 0 0 b u t i t ’s g o i n g t o b e s o m e – i t i s g o i n g t o
be read by housewives etcetera, people that are at a particular space.
Here I am a businessman and I am interested in the attention of the
D G ’s , h e r e i s a n e w s p a p e r t h a t i s – o r a m a g a z i n e , t h a t i s r e a d b y a
1 000 people but within those thousand people 34 of them are the

Page 112 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
people we are really targeting, where do you think I am going to go?
I am not going to go to this big circulation of housewives
magazine, I am going to go to this one, so this is the understanding
that must be brought on board about niche newspapers, about target
marketing that when you advertise, when you have a relationship with
the newspaper you have it with them because they – because they can
r e a c h t h e t a r g e t m a r k e t t h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g f o r, s o j a .
S o t h i s i s n o t To p Te n d o e s n o t s u r p r i s e m e b e c a u s e w e ’ r e
dealing with old hands in the business, these are new entrants, you
10

can’t expect a new entrant to rush it up to a serious number on the first
three years, so this was just to be expected.
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

Mr Manyi I accept that in the first ...(intervenes).

And to be supported.

ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s , M r M a n y i I w o u l d l i k e t o s e p a r a t e t w o t h i n g s i n

y o u r a n s w e r.
MR MANYI:

H’mm.

ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u h a v e g i v e n a n a n s w e r t h a t s a y s n e w e n t r a n t s

need to be supported.
MR MANYI:
20

Correct.

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a t ’s o n e m a t t e r.

The separate matter is when

Government spends public money to advertise in newspapers, whether
it is going to reach its target market, do you accept that those are two
d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s ?
MR MANYI:

Can you rephrase that or repeat that?

ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s s u r e .

There might be two reasons why

Page 113 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
government spends public money on advertising, the first might be
exclusively to support new entrants, no matter who is reading the
newspaper but to give them a foot-up, do you accept that?
MR MANYI:

Ye s .

MS HOFMEYR:

T h e r e ’s a n o t h e r r e a s o n w h y g o v e r n m e n t m i g h t s p e n d

public funds on newspapers and that is because they want to reach a
particular target market, do you accept that?
MR MANYI:

Ye s , y e s I d o .

ADV HOFMEYR:
10

L e t ’s f o c u s o n t h e l a t t e r, i f w e m a y, b e c a u s e y o u r

consistent evidence before this Commission is that reaching your target
market is a critical component of a decision to spend on advertising, is
that correct?
MR MANYI:

Ye s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

If you are dealing admittedly with a newspaper not in

t h e To p Te n , b u t a n e w s p a p e r w h o t h e s o u r c e o f i n f o r m a t i o n o n i t s
readership indicates less than 40 respondents have read and that it
should be treated with caution for decision making, how can you have
any confidence as to the target market you want to reach?
MR MANYI:
20

No you see, you see Chair it depends, the industry is

monopolised, this industry is monopolised, so if you have got the
owners of the industry that are making all kinds of comments that
undermine new players you expect that and you have to work within
that, but the nub of the answer is that if we have a situation
Chairperson where their spend on this particular newspaper was so out
of proportion with the others then we can have a discussion and I have

Page 114 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
figures here that would show you Chairperson, in fact I submitted this
is in my last submission, and I have got them here, just to show that in
fact the government did not stop working with the – these monopolies,
did not stop working with Naspers, working with all of them, did not
stop, so we are not having a discussion here about a government that
decided at some point to stop doing business with everybody but focus
o n t h i s o n e , t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g i n c o n t e x t , i t ’s p r o b a b l y a b o u t 4 % o r s o ,
a bit more than 4% of the total spent of everything, so we can burn
e n e r g y, b u t w e a r e b u r n i n g e n e r g y o n 4 % a n d t h i s a r g u m e n t i s t h a t
10

spend zero and so on, so .....(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR:
rationality

of

Mr Manyi I would like to focus on the 4% and the

government

departments,

including

GCIS,

placing

advertisements in a newspaper that has less than 40 respondents
reading it and in respect of which there is a caution for decision
making.
Is it your evidence that it is rational to place an advertisement
and spend public funds in the TNA if that is what you know about its
readership?
MR MANYI:
20

I don’t know the reliability of these notes here, I don’t

know the reliability of these notes here.
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

Do you have a basis to dispute them?

T h a t ’s y o u r f a v o u r i t e q u e s t i o n .

CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe if you don’t know the reliability of those
notes Mr Manyi maybe you could deal with the question on – and say
assuming that they are reliable what would be your attitude, if they

Page 115 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
were to be reliable or if they were reliable at the time.
MR MANYI:

Okay here Chairperson we are dealing with a comparison

of veteran newspapers, comparing them to a new entrant.

The new

entrant is launched in 2010 – December 2010, so we can even discount
2010, but already I think this comparison itself is malicious, in 2010
this newspaper the amount of time they had was probably a couple of
w e e k s b e f o r e e n d o f t h e y e a r, i t l a u n c h e d s o m e w h e r e e n d o f D e c e m b e r
– s o m e w h e r e i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , t h i s n e w s p a p e r, s o t h e n 2 0 11 , 2 0 1 2
a r e t h e t e e t h i n g y e a r s f o r t h i s n e w s p a p e r, s o a n y t h i n g t h a t w o u l d b e
10

written that is not complimentary is to be expected, but if you are going
to take that to heart then Chairperson you will never have new entrants
so these kinds of comments you can expect them from new entrants. If
this was the case to an established that has been there for years and
so on I would then get very worried but if it is said to a new entrant I
will say okay you are not telling me anything that I didn’t expect, so I
note and we proceed.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi do you then accept that your decision to

place advertising spend with that newspaper is to support a new entrant
and isn’t linked to getting your message to a desired target market.
20

MR MANYI:

N o i t ’s b o t h , i t ’s b o t h , b e c a u s e t o g e t t o t h e t a r g e t m a r k e t

you have an entrant that has got an appropriate strategy for that target
m a r k e t , t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e s t o f t h e c a r t e l h a s g o t a d i ff e r e n t v i e w i s
noted.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi you keep giving an answer that indicates a

c o m p a r i s o n w i t h w h a t y o u ’ v e d e s c r i b e d a s t h e c a r t e l o r t h e m o n o p o l y.

Page 116 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
I preface my questions, I am not for present purposes interested in the
96%, I am in interested in the rationality of the spend of the 4%, I don’t
w a n t t o t a k e t h i s p o i n t f u r t h e r, I p u t i t t o y o u t h a t i t i s i r r a t i o n a l f o r
government in the form of GCIS to spend money on the TNA if it has
l e s s t h a n 4 0 r e s p o n d e n t s r e a d i n g t h e n e w s p a p e r a n d t h e r e ’s a c a u t i o n
for decision making, do you want to comment on that?
MR MANYI:

Ja, I disagree with you, I think your summary is devoid of

the developmental agenda of government, your summary is devoid of
the experience of the new entrants in terms of barriers into the
10

i n d u s t r y, s o t h a t k i n d o f p o s t u r e i s t h e k i n d o f p o s t u r e t h a t i s c a u s i n g
huge inequalities in this country because everyone wants you on day 1
t o b e 1 0 0 m e t e r s s p r i n t e r, n o b o d y w a n t s t o i n v e s t i n y o u a n d g r o w w i t h
you.
So what would be useful by those that were doing this is to go
to the first 10 years – first three years of these publications and
compare them with this publication, that would have been a useful
comparison.

This

comparison

given

here

is

a

totally

useless

comparison because you are taking veteran newspapers and comparing
them with a newspaper – this comparison on its own is totally irrational
20

and devoid of any logic.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi I would then like to move to the question of

spend of TNA, and Chair and Mr Manyi you will pick up the information
t h a t w a s s u p p l i e d b y M s W i l l i a m s a n d G C I S ’s r e c o r d s a t p a g e 3 5 3 i n
that same Exhibit NN6.
CHAIRPERSON: 353?

Page 117 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR:

Indeed.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s I s e e w e a r e a t 1 3 : 3 0 , h o w a r e w e d o i n g ?
ADV HOFMEYR:

I am optimistic that we will finish in time for our

suggested 14:00 end.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I t h i n k I w i l l n e e d t h a t w e t a k e a s h o r t b r e a k .

Earlier on Mr Manyi when our flight was at an earlier time you said you
could make it if you left at 12:30, which seem to give me the impression
t h a t ’s o n e a n d a h a l f h o u r s b e f o r e d e p a r t u r e .

If we go beyond 14:00

because of the break that I am proposing you will still be more or less
10

o k a y.
MR MANYI:

I w i l l b e m o r e o r l e s s o k a y y e s C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, c o u l d w e t h e r e f o r e t a k e j u s t a 1 5 m i n u t e s b r e a k
and come back at quarter to two.

If we do that I think we would aim to

finish by at least not later than 14:15, would that more or less be fine
with you Ms Hofmeyr?
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

That seems fine to me.

T h a t ’s f i n e w i t h m e C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t .
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

W e a r e g r a t e f u l f o r t h e b r e a k C h a i r, t h a n k y o u .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , l e t ’s t a k e a b r e a k n o w, s o i t i s h a l f p a s t , w e w i l l
resume at 13:45. We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
REGISTRAR: All rise.

Page 118 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. B e f o r e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t w e w e r e i n
Exhibit NN6 at page 353.

Chair and Mr Manyi this is part of the

information that was produced pursuant to your request Chair that there
be a breakdown per newspaper of the spend of GCIS over the period.
And Mr Manyi I accept that the period spans time greater than the time
that you were in GCIS and so I would like to focus on the two years in
which you were there. That would cover on my understanding both the
2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 y e a r a s w e l l a s t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 y e a r b e c a u s e y o u e x i t e d G C I S
10

after the end of the financial year in 2012, is that right? Oh if you will
just put on your microphone.
M R M A N Y I : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. So if we start at page ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : S o 11 / 1 2 , 1 2 / 1 3 ?
ADV HOFMEYR: Correct.
MR MANYI: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: Those are the two years we will focus on. And if we
s t a r t w i t h 2 0 11 t o 2 0 1 2 i t i s a t p a g e 3 5 3 .

Yo u w i l l s e e r i g h t a t t h e

bottom of the page there the indicated spend on the New Age. Do you
20

see that?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s I d o .
ADV HOFMEYR: And that is in the order of R6.3 million, correct?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

And then what you get to compare that to because

now I am interested in the comparison is the spend on other

Page 119 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
newspapers. So amongst them you will see in the third line down is the
Sunday Times and the Sunday Times received spend from GCIS in that
period of R8.4 million or thereabouts. Do you see that?
MR MANYI: On the same 353 Sunday Times?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s s o i f y o u l o o k d o w n o n A v u s a i t i s t h e t h i r d l i n e i n
that top block and you go across.
MR MANYI: Oh yes okay right at the top yes.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e g o t S u n d a y T i m e s a t R 8 . 4 m i l l i o n , c o r r e c t ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s , y e s c o r r e c t .
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s a s I c a s t m y e y e d o w n t h i s t a b l e th e h i g h e s t
s p e n d i n t h a t y e a r, i s t h a t a l s o y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e p a g e ?
MR MANYI: Ja in this page as reflected here that is correct.
ADV HOFMEYR: And the next highest is the New Age, is that correct?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR: And the Daily Sun which you indicated earlier has the
greatest circulation in the country you will see towards the bottom of
the last block, second line from the bottom there.

It says Media24

Daily Sun was R2.6 million thereabouts, do you see that?
MR MANYI: H’mm. It is correct.
20

ADV HOFMEYR: What concerns – what I notice about this page is that
the spend on the New Age is second only to the Sunday Times and
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Please help me where is the New Age? I am trying to
...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR: Apologies Chair it is right at the bottom of the page

Page 120 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
outside of a block at all. Do you see right at the bottom of 353?
CHAIRPERSON: I am at 353 and ...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e g o t a b l o c k f o r A v u s a . Yo u h a v e g o t a b l o c k
for Independent Newspapers.

Yo u h a v e g o t a b l o c k f o r M e d i a 2 4 a n d

then below the block for Media24 the last line on the page reads the
New Age R6.3 million.
CHAIRPERSON: At page 353?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a i r w e – y o u m a y b e i n t h e w r o n g f i l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w I h a v e t a k e n o ff m y s p e c s b u t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

ADV HOFMEYR: Oh no. Are you in the Exhibit NN6?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e m y – o n m y – t h e l a s t – o h o u t s i d e . S o I a m
looking inside.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d I d o a p o l o g i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

It is odd that you have got three blocks and then

something located beyond them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O k a y, o k a y n o w I s e e i t . O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR: I think the reason for that is that there were no other
publications. think the reason for that is that there were no other
20

publications.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MANYI: In The New Age.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR: Whereas the others have to be divided.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 121 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ADV HOFMEYR:

Insofar as Avusa is concerned between the Herald,

Avusa Media, Sunday Times etcetera.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: And what I was saying to Mr Manyi is that the highest
spend on this page is R8.4 million and that is to the Sunday Times.
Daily Sun receives in the order of R2.6 million but The New Age
receives R3 – R6.3 million which is the second highest spend in that
y e a r. D o y o u r e a d t h e t a b l e i n t h e s a m e w a y a s I d o M r M a n y i ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t .
10

ADV HOFMEYR: Now that seems to me to raise a question. Why would
The New Age in its first year given the challenges that we have
traversed in the evidence already about its circulation and the concerns
raised by the persons who did research on readership still command
the second highest spend within GCIS?
MR MANYI:

O k a y. T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

I am happy that you picked up

S u n d a y T i m e s w h i c h i n f a c t i s a g o o d e x a m p l e o f h o w p e o p le d i s t o r t
c o m p a r i s o n s . S u n d a y T i m e s i s a o n c e i n s e v e n d a y ’s n e w s p a p e r. N e w
A g e i s a f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r. S o w h y o n e a r t h w o u l d a n y o n e c o m p a r e
what you spend on the once in seven days with a five day newspaper?
20

The comparison is absurd, totally absurd.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. Please identify another five page – five
day newspaper on this page? Is Daily Sun not a five day newspaper?
MR MANYI: But I thought we have discussed the Daily Sun?
ADV HOFMEYR: No it is ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI:

It is but the same criticism can be made across many

Page 122 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
people that Daily Sun does not attract as much advertising spend as
others because everybody understands the issue that we – I spoke
about that target marketing.
ADV HOFMEYR: But you had no idea of the target market of the New
Age?
MR MANYI: No well when I say target market I am talking – I do not
k n o w w h a t . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) s a y I d o n o t k n o w, I h a v e n o i d e a , I d o n o t
understand the question. Maybe repeat – what are you saying?
MR MANYI:
10

I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o t h e e v i d e n c e e a r l i e r.

There was no

information before GCIS based on what we have seen in these papers
that gave it any confirmed indication of a readership beyond 40
respondents, do you accept that?
MR MANYI: No I do not accept that because as I said earlier that I do
n o t k n o w w h o p u t t h a t t o g e t h e r, w h a t i s t h e v o r a c i t y o f w h a t t h e y h a v e
p u t h e r e t o g e t h e r.
ADV HOFMEYR: Right. So let us as the Chair suggested earlier let us
assume that these facts are accurate.
MR MANYI: Let us assume that these facts are wrong?
ADV HOFMEYR:

20

Well I cannot have a debate with you Mr Manyi and

yes I have alternative facts on which to base the questions.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t u s p u t i t t h i s w a y.

If these facts were

c o r r e c t w o u l d i t a ff e c t y o u r a n s w e r i n a n y w a y o r w h a t e v e r t h e f a c t s a r e
a r o u n d t h a t i t w o u l d n o t a ff e c t y o u r a n s w e r a n d y o u r a p p r o a c h o r
attitude towards supporting the New Age?
MR MANYI: Can she repeat the question then Chair?

Page 123 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: Okay maybe let– okay can you repeat it Ms Hofmeyr
using ...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s I a m h a p p y t o C h a i r I w a s j u s t w o r r i e d t h a t i t w a s
your question at this point but ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja using my formulation maybe.
ADV HOFMEYR:

But let me do so.

Mr Manyi we have to take the

d e b a t e o n t h e b a s i s o f t h e f a c t s t h a t a r e h e r e . S o i f it i s a c c e p t e d f o r
the purposes of the question that the TNA had only 40 respondents
i d e n t i f i e d i n t h e y e a r o f 2 0 11 t h a t h a d r e a d t h e n e w s p a p e r. T h a t t a r g e t
10

market is extremely small, is it not?
MR MANYI: Based on those circulation figures yes.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. Those are readership figures just for the
record.

Then we move to your evidence a moment ago.

Yo u f i r s t

disputed the comparison I drew between the Sunday Times and the New
Age on the basis that the Sunday Times circulate once a week and the
New Age circulates five times a week which I understand. That is why I
moved the question to well let us find another five day circulating
n e w s p a p e r.
M R M A N Y I : C h a i r.
20

ADV HOFMEYR: I identified the Daily Sun.
MR MANYI: Can I?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manyi.
MR MANYI: Can I make this point? The day – let us compare the Daily
Sun with an unparalleled circulation with the Sowetan and in this table
h e r e t h e S o w e t a n i n 2 0 11 / 1 2 a c c o r d i n g t o t h i s t a b l e g o t R 4 m i l l i o n . A n d

Page 124 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
if we go to that page so that we just stick with the facts we do not have
alternative facts the page that we were pointed to initially with that
c i r c u l a t i o n n u m b e r s o r r e a d e r s h i p n u m b e r s . C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms

Hofmeyr

will

be

trying

to

help

you

with

...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : Ye s c a n s h e p l e a s e h e l p u s w i t h t h a t ?
ADV HOFMEYR: It is page 316.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M A N Y I : N o w C h a i r p e r s o n l o o k a t t h i s . Yo u c a n t a k e a n y c o l u m n .
10

Let us take the first column. Daily Sun has got R5 million in terms of
the circulation figure.

And Sowetan has got only R1.5.

But here in

these figures here Sowetan with R1.5 ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n o w g o i n g b a c k t o 3 5 3 ?
MR MANYI: Oh sorry yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . S o w e t a n w i t h – i n f a c t j u s t s o t h a t w e c a n c o m p a r e
like with like let us go to 2012 Chair on the readership of 2012 on that
316 that we ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR MANYI: Ja. Now you have got Daily Sun at 5.5 million readership.
And then you have got Sowetan at 1.6 million.

But on the Daily Sun

how much we spend. On the Daily Sun we have spent
ADV HOFMEYR: R2.6 million.
MR MANYI:

R2.6 here it is a R5 million.

So what is the rationale?

Why is – just compare veteran to veteran? Why spend R2.6 million on

Page 125 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
a R5.6 million circulation and spend almost double the amount on
s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s 1 . 5 ? A n d I c a n g i v e y o u t h e a n s w e r.
CHAIRPERSON: I – my mind is still stuck on the point that you and Ms
Hofmeyr were dealing with much earlier and it may be that the point
t h a t y o u a r e r a i s i n g i s a n o t h e r p o i n t . Yo u r a i s e d t h e c r i t i c i s m t h a t y o u
cannot compare a five day newspaper with a one day a week
n e w s p a p e r.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Which I understand.

Then she said let us look at

a n o t h e r f i v e d a y n e w s p a p e r.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Now I was waiting that we go there and compare and
then see what we – what emerges. But you have drawn my attention to
I think the Sowetan.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s t h e S o w e t a n v e r s u s t h e D a i l y S u n .
CHAIRPERSON: And what I believe to be a one day a week newspaper
or am I wrong? The other newspapers ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : N o t h e D a i l y S u n i s e v e r y d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh the Daily Sun is ...(intervenes).

20

MR MANYI: It is the same as Sowetan.
CHAIRPERSON:

The other one that has got a lot of that you were

saying earlier on is a lot of ...(indistinct).
M R M A N Y I : I t i s D a i l y S u n C h a i r. T h e o n e t h a t h a s – t h a t i s t o p p i n g
everyone.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I t h o u g h t i t w a s t h e S u n d a y p a p e r.

Page 126 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh it is the Daily Sun.
MR MANYI: It is the Daily Sun.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay alright.

Okay just repeat the point you are

making because when you were making ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : O k a y t h e p o i n t I a m m a k i n g C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: When you were making the point I thought you – it is
a Sunday once – one day a week paper?
MR MANYI: The point I am making Chair and I am choosing a sample
10

t h a t i s a ff e c t e d s o t h a t w e c a n p o i n t o u t t h a t y o u c a n n o t o p e r a t e
mechanically on a straight line. Like we are made to do in this session.
So I am pointing out here Chair that I note that the New Age is – there
is more spend on the New Age compared to any other so to speak – five
d a y. B u t I a m s a y i n g I c a n s a y t h e s a m e t h i n g a b o u t t h e c o m p a r i s o n o f
Sowetan and Daily Sun which are both five day newspapers and the
comparison in terms of readership between Daily Sun and Sowetan is
chalk and cheese. Daily Sun is sitting at 5.5 million readership and yet
w e s p e n d i n g o n l y 2 . 6 m i l l i o n . Ye t o n t h e S o w e t a n t h a t h a s g o t 1 . 5 w e
spending 4.1 million on it.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: Which is almost double.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: The other numbers. So the point is you must also have a
problem with that if you are going to have a problem with this. So all I
am asking for just be consistent when you do these numbers. Just not

Page 127 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
cherry pick because the issue here is that this issue Chair is not a
mechanical issue. There are just too many nuances in between as to
why you would do business with a particular publication.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o I t h i n k t h e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k i n g h a s b e e n

understood Mr Hofmeyr?
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Mr Manyi I do want to make the

comparison between the New Age and any other five day newspaper on
this page because I would like your evidence on that aspect. So if we
go to the page you have drawn our attention to which is 316 which sets
10

out the comparative readership during the period.

My question is the

following: What basis could justify spending R6.3 million on let us take
your 2012 figures a newspaper with 107 000 indicated readership where
the next closest spend of a five day newspaper is less than R6.3
million. It is R4.1 million and the circulation – the readership there is
5.5 million.

Does that not on its face seem to you to call for an

explanation at least?
MR MANYI: I can give the explanation.
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
MR MANYI: Chair you see one of the – just by way of example just to
20

u n d e r s t a n d t h e b u s i n e s s m o d e l s o f t h e s e d i ff e r e n t n e w s p a p e r s .

New

Age in its approach would generally have a lot of campaigns that are 2,
3, 4 pages.

Campaigns they would have very competitive pricing

because they would say to you, I mean one of the evidence that Ms
W i l l i a m s h a s b r o u g h t t o t h e a t t e n t i o n h e r e i t i s i n h e r a ff i d a v i t . J u s t t o
piggy back on that example just to illustrate the point where she got the

Page 128 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
letter from TNA and TNA was saying they want to do an eight pager and
so on.

So what we have with the creativity of TNA is people that

understand how to get the story to be exciting, mixing graphics with
texts and all of that and pictures and all of this so that this thing is
readable.
So what we then do is let us say you have a particular briefing
by a President or State of the Nation and then they say okay let us do
an eight pager just for – by way of an example. Then the first page will
cover maybe the face of the President. Then the next page maybe will
10

cover parliament or whatever else and as part of the story so that as
you read the story because people understand the psychology of the
reader that as you read the story if you have got pictures in between it
makes the story much more easy to consume.
So because the New Age had a lot of those types of campaigns
they would be the preferred medium.

By the way Chairperson let me

make this point that GCIS is not the actual decision maker on these
things.

The various departments that come to GCIS you get a DG of

that department which you cannot override as GCIS DG.

Despite the

empirics you have. Despite the TELMA you have.
20

If a DG of a particular department says, I want this campaign
run on Sowetan he has got the final say because he is the Accounting
O ff i c e r f o r t h a t m o n e y i n h i s d e p a r t m e n t . Yo u c a n a d v i s e t h a t d o n o t d o
t h i s , d o n o t d o t h a t b u t t h e f i n a l p o s i t i o n s i t s w i t h t h a t p e r s o n C h a i r.
Yo u c a n n o t o v e r r u l e t h e m .
One of the powers I had wanted was to be able to overrule

Page 129 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
them on this matter so I left the Department without having won that
battle. But as things stand let no impression be created that GCIS was
m a k i n g t h e s e d e c i s i o n s . G C I S w a s a n e n a b l e r. T h e p e o p l e t h a t m a k e
the decisions where the Exco are the line departments.
So if anyone is to blame here it is not GCIS it is the line
departments. These are the people that own the budget. By the GCIS
on its own does not even have a media budget in my time. Did not have
much by way of that.

It would be savings here and there that we do

something but it did not have a substantial millions and millions ready
10

to advertise. No. We were just the enabler department.
CHAIRPERSON: Would the line departments send something in writing
when they say please arrange for this to be advertised in a particular
newspaper? In other words could one probably go somewhere and find
that this is where you would have all the documentation to say you
know this is what happened? Or was this sometimes just telephonic or
in verbal?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Or always verbal or telephonic?
M R M A N Y I : N o C h a i r I t h i n k i t i s d o c u m e n t e d a c t u a l l y. J a .

20

CHAIRPERSON: it is documented?
MR MANYI: Ja it is documented as part of what they would require.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: As the people that – because then if you do not do that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: Then you have a dispute with that particular department.

Page 130 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MANYI:

And so on.

So you would have to – you can persuade

t h e m t o d o t h i s o r t h a t b u t t h e y a c t u a l l y h a v e t h e f i n a l s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: That the GCIS does not have the kind of – or let me put it
t h i s w a y. I n m y t i m e G C I S d i d n o t h a v e t h e k i n d o f p o w e r t h a t N a t i o n a l
Tr e a s u r y h a s .

N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i s t h e r u l e r o f g o v e r n m e n t .

They

decide – give you a regulation and that is the line.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
10

MR MANYI: There was no such in my time at GCIS.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n e ff e c t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t
it may seem that during a particular time including your time there
might have been a drastic increase or an increase in business being
g i v e n t o t h e N e w A g e . Yo u a r e s a y i n g t h o s e w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n y o u r
decisions or the decisions of your department of GCIS people. It would
have been decisions of the Departments to which those adverts related
and whatever you or anybody in GCIS may have said to say what about
advertising in that newspaper that would have been advise which would
have been rejected if it was not somewhat ...(intervenes).

20

M R M A N Y I : I t i s n o t b l a c k a n d w h i t e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
MR MANYI: It is not black and white.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: So – but I would say roughly 80% of what would happen.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 131 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: Would be from line departments.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: Ja. So the persuasion.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: The success of the persuasion.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:

I will probably had a 20% success rate.

Ja but mainly

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

MR MANYI: I mean there are people that you will not shake.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MANYI: That say this thing must go to the Sunday Times.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MANYI: There is absolutely nothing you can do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MANYI: If you must just go to the Sunday Times.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR: Chair I am very conscious of the time. We may need
to ...(intervenes).

20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, yes.
A D V H O F M E Y R : To g o t o h a l f p a s t i f w e c a n . T h a t s t i l l l e a v e s a n h o u r
and a half so I am optimistic Mr Manyi.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us confirm that would still be fine Mr Manyi if we
go up to half past?
MR MANYI: Half past yes it is fine.

Page 132 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

I w o u l d l i k e t o t r y a n d w r a p t h i s u p q u i c k l y.

Yo u r

u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e d e c i s i o n m a k i n g i n G C I S i s s l i g h t l y d i ff e r e n t t o m y
understanding. Certainly GCIS is procuring four departments I accept
that. But as I understand it often what happens is the brief comes to
G C I S a n d t h e b r i e f i s , w e h a v e a p a r t i c u l a r c o m m u n i c a t i o n s t r a t e g y.
We want to get it to this target market.

GCIS please use all of your

expertise to assess the market, look at readership, look at circulation
etcetera and make a proposal back to us as to who we use.
10

Have I

understood it incorrectly?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s y o u h a v e u n d e r s t o o d i t i n c o r r e c t l y.
ADV HOFMEYR: Oh.
MR MANYI:
a n y b o d y.

W h a t t y p i c a l l y h a p p e n s C h a i r.

The – people approach

They can approach a GCIS but then they – it depends

because it depends what campaign you want to run.

The most

campaigns that would generally be funded from GCIS would be the
Presidency Campaign. It will be maybe very small budget around that
because it is the only line department so to speak for GCIS at the time.
But if somebody else comes to GCIS and they say they have got this
20

brilliant way of advertising energy for argument sake.

I can tell you

this now Chair there is no way that GCIS will spend one cent on that
campaign. They would direct that person to the Energy Department and
then they will have that discussion then they would ...(indistinct) a
c a m p a i g n b e t w e e n t h a t d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h a t p a r t i c u l a r n e w s p a p e r.
Then when it comes to GCIS, GCIS would assess if the chosen media

Page 133 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
by that department is correct or not correct depending on what are the
target market requirements and all of that. Then GCIS will say to the
Department I know that you want A but actually for your target market it
i s B . B u t t h e G C I S h a s n o t g o t t h e f i n a l s a y o n t h a t m a t t e r.
ADV HOFMEYR: So is it your evidence that we must regard all GCIS
spend as not having involved a decision of GCIS but the decision of the
line department?
MR MANYI: I did say Chair it is not black and white. I did make a – I
did make an estimate of 80/20. What I am saying is that 80% of what
10

you see here is the wish of the Departments.
ADV HOFMEYR: So let us ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a m s o r r y.

If your statement that the people

who have the final decision are the line departments then I am not sure
whether you should be making the distinction you make about 80% and
20% because it would mean that what you regard as 20% is where
GCIS make suggestions or gives advice to line departments. And if line
departments are not bound by that they would still be making the
d e c i s i o n t o – t h a t t h e a d v e r t s h o u l d g o t o a p a r t i c u l a r n e w s p a p e r. O f
course one can always say in regard to certain – a certain percentage
20

maybe the choice of the newspaper was influenced by GCIS.

But

maybe in the end it is the Departments which decide whether to accept
the advice or not?
M R M A N Y I : J a . T h e r e a r e t w o t h i n g s C h a i r. O n e G C I S i s t h e p o i n t o f
interface.

So GCIS is the one that would interface with the various

publications on behalf of government as a whole.

Page 134 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI:

So to speak.

So at one point when various departments

come to GCIS.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: They come with their own proposals and so I want to say
actually I want this in the Sowetan, I want this in this particular
n e w s p a p e r. Yo u c a n p e r s u a d e – s o I a m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u
mean by decision Chair because it is just the mechanism of placing a
p a p e r.
10

It might be done by GCIS it is just a mechanism but the

executive decision on which newspaper is with the line department if
you have not persuaded them otherwise.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But precisely the last point you make is the

point that I was trying to find out whether that is not the position.
Because if you say government department – line departments have got
final decision but you say GCIS has the opportunity to advise and
persuade?

O k a y.

But they can advise, they can persuade if the line

departments do not accept the advice or are not persuaded the decision
still lies with them.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w.

But I think maybe it is fair – maybe I

should not have been kin of critical of the distinction you were making
because maybe what you are seeking to do is to make sure that nobody
understands that you are saying GCIS had no influence in the choice of
newspapers in terms of where the adverts would be placed. But what
you are saying is they had some influence but the final decision makers

Page 135 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
were the line departments and maybe what you were seeking to say is
if you had to give a percentage of what that influence was like you
would say more or less 20% of the choice of newspapers for adverts
that is where they are – GCIS influence was.
MR MANYI:

Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct?
MR MANYI:

Ye s C h a i r.

And in addition Chair – in addition nothing

stopped a department from going directly and not even coming to GCIS.
S o w e h a d n o t a t 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 w h e n I w a s t h e r e w e h a d n o t c o m e t o a
10

regulatory framework that would compel everybody to come via GCIS.
So some of these figures are GCIS figures, but it would be interesting
to see can you look at the line departments by themselves, because
they do have a direct line and when they have done that.
T h e y h a v e s t i l l - b r o k e n - n o t b r o k e n a n y l a w. T h e y h a v e j u s t
did not have act with the required understanding, but there is no
particular regulation that they have broken.

So line departments do

make their own arrangements in parallel.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

Mr Manyi I do not think it is profitable to get into a

debate our understanding.

My understanding was based on the

evidence of Ms Williams who indicated that process as I have described
it to you and the evidence which you say is not the process. I would
l i k e f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t o d a y ’s e v i d e n c e s i m p l y t o a s k y o u t h e n t o t h e
extent that GCIS was ever involved in the decision making to place
advertising spend with TNA.

Page 136 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
Would it be cause for concern for you to learn that the
decisions in the relevant period that you were there resulted in greater
spend with TNA than any other comparative five-day newspaper?
MR MANYI: It – no. It would be a matter that one must look at closely
as to what are the reasons for that.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. Let us move then to one or two aspects
of your response to Ms Williams and I will endeavour to be brief here
C h a i r, b u t t h e r e a r e a f e w p o i n t s I w a n t e d t o p i c k u p . A l a r g e p o r t i o n o f
y o u r a ff i d a v i t i n r e s p o n s e t o M s W i l l i a m s c r i t i c i s e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n p u t a w a y t h e o t h e r b u n d l e t h a t w e h a v e b e e n
using …(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s .

S o C h a i r, w e – I a m h o p i n g i n t h e i n t e r e s t o f

t i m e n o t t o h a v e t o g o a c t u a l l y i n t o t h e a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR: If there is an issue we will do so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A l r i g h t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Certainly I have the references, but if we can do it

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V H O F M E Y R : I n i t i a l l y a t t h e l e v e l o f M r M a n y i ’s r e c o l l e c t i o n o f h e r
a ff i d a v i t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: And what he said.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u c r i t i c i s e w h a t y o u d e s c r i b e d a s a n u n l a w f u l t r i a l

Page 137 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
phase that was operating under Ms Williams’ watch at GCIS.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Is that correct?
MR MANYI: Correct.
ADV HOFMEYR:

And you highlight the fact that in the National

Tr e a s u r y R e p o r t o n t h e L i g h t F u s e ’s c o n t r a c t a m o n g s t o t h e r s t h a t i t h a d
found that there was no request for a dispensation for this in-house
media buying not to follow a competitive process.
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . C o r r e c t .
10

ADV HOFMEYR: Do you recall highlighting that?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

My question to you is whether you accept that that

u n l a w f u l t r i a l p h a s e p e r s i s t e d w h i l e y o u w e r e t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r o f
GCIS?
MR MANYI: 20% of the time. Chair the trial phase started in 2010 in
September and it was apparently a six-month thing.

So 80% of this

trial phase happened not in my era and this – all these shenanigans
p a y m e n t s a n d s t u ff h a p p e n e d i n t h a t p e r i o d . I n m y e r a i t w a s j u s t t h e
tail end of things that happened, but the bulk of the breaking down of –
20

bulk or I mean all the split invoices.
A l l t h e i r r e g u l a r t h i n g s t h a t h a p p e n e d l a r g e l y i n J a n u a r y 2 0 11
before I arrived. So the trial phase I got 20% of it. It was six months
a n d s o i f y o u c o u n t f r o m S e p t e m b e r. I p r o b a b l y g o t t h e t a i l e n d o f t h e
two months. The bulk of it happened before my time.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi we do need to distinguish two things.

Page 138 of 151

I

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t t h a t o c c u r r e d i n J a n u a r y 2 0 11 b e f o r e y o u
arrived there.
Report.

I

T h a t w a s t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r o f t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y
absolutely

accept

that

those

payment

decisions

the

authorisation occurred before you got there. So take that as given.
What I am asking about is your criticism of Ms Williams and
the fact that there was an unlawful trial phase that did not receive
N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y a p p r o v a l t o m o v e m e d i a b u y i n g i n - h o u s e i n t o G C I S .
Yo u c r i t i c i s e h e r r e p e a t e d l y f o r h a v i n g a n o p e r a t i o n i n p l a c e w h i c h
a l l o w e d i n - h o u s e m e d i a b u y i n g t o t a k e p l a c e w i t h o u t N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y
10

approval and my question to you is it not the case that that very
situation persisted not for two months, but for the entire time that you
were DG of GCIS?
MR MANYI:

Chairperson I think the – if you go to the relevant

paragraphs of Ms Williams part of the nub of the issue here is where
money got lost in my view by GCI – by GCIS where she was signing
these commitment of payments and so on which were irregular and all
of that. The splitting of invoices.
That happened. So the loss that had happened here which is
the real reason for this report is that main seven million that went
20

missing because of this – not went missing was paid irregularly and so
on. That is the thing. In my – when I came to the picture.
We did not have this commitment to pay happening again,
because then it got stopped as soon as we saw this. We – it did not
happen again.
ADV HOFMEYR: Mr Manyi that is not an answer to my question. I will

Page 139 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
ask it again.

By the time you left GCIS had you received National

Tr e a s u r y d i s p e n s a t i o n f o r i n - h o u s e m e d i a b u y i n g w i t h i n G C I S ?
M R M A N Y I : T h a t i s s o m e t h i n g I w i l l h a v e t o c h e c k C h a i r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u c a n d o s o a t l e a s t o n t h e b a s i s o f a l e t t e r t h a t

you wrote shortly before you left GCIS. It is one of the attachments to
M s W i l l i a m s ’ a ff i d a v i t . Yo u w i l l f i n d i t i n N N 6 a t p a g e 4 6 . A g a i n i f y o u
need to go there you can, but I can tell you it is a letter that you signed
on the 28th of May 2012. Just remind us when did you leave GCIS?
MR MANYI:
10

Ja.

I think Chair let us just set the context. That the –

that memo that she is talking about was a complete overhaul of how
things should work to make sure that media buying gets the maximum.
That was a Rolls Royce request that one had put there.
That does not necessarily mean in between that there were
no other legitimate words of doing things.

That is just of the detail,

because as I say this was – this was happening. A person that really
should be asked here and I will say this again should be asked to come
and talk to this at operational level is Donald Diphoko.
I think this Commission would be a serious injustice if they do
not ask him to come here. He can explain this at a level of details as
20

to what was happening at that point in there, but I just know that there
was some way in which this was done in a manner that would not
d i s a d v a n t a g e t h e t a x p a y e r, b u t t h e d e t a i l I d o n o t h a v e .
CHAIRPERSON: What was the name again of the person?
MR MANYI: Donald Diphoko, but ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 140 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
MR MANYI: Diphoko is spelt D-I ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: D-I, I remember ...(intervenes).
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . Ye s . J a . D i p h o k o .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja.
MR MANYI: That person ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: Chair will – he was heading media buying.
CHAIRPERSON: Well …(intervenes).
MR MANYI: So all – most of these detail via his ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: His name is ...(intervenes)?
MR MANYI: Donald.
CHAIRPERSON: Would appear in a list that - in a list of names that I
have previously said - of people that I have said should be called.
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: Or should be interviewed ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Quite some time back ...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: So I am sure he is going to be interviewed if he has

20

not already been interviewed and would be called.
MR MANYI: He is the same buy Chair – I know we are running out of
time ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M R M A N Y I : A n d I d o n o t w a n t t o d i s r u p t M s H o f m e y r ’s i n p u t h e r e . H e
i s t h e s a m e g u y C h a i r o n N N 2 t h a t h a s s u b m i t t e d a n a ff i d a v i t .

Page 141 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI: Page 97.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h a t i s f i n e . L e t u s n o t s p e n d m o r e t i m e .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: I had – he is one of the people that I had identified
many months ago as people who should be interviewed ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: And possibly be called. So there are many who have
not been called who should be called and will be called.
10

M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: So I am sure he will be called at some stage.
M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hofmeyr your time is limited. So ...(intervenes).
ADV HOFMEYR: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON:

Both Mr Manyi and I are trying to give you time to

continue.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r, w e r e a l l y o n l y h a v e a b o u t t w o m i n u t e s l e f t . I
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Five on my watch.
20

ADV HOFMEYR: Five. Oh. That is better than mine.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manyi on your watch?
MR MANYI: Five on mine.
CHAIRPERSON: Five on his watch. So five at least. Let us see.
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a n y i t o c l o s e o ff o n t h i s p o i n t j u s t f o r t h e

purposes of the record. The letter that I drew your attention to I read

Page 142 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
that letter to be a request for the very dispensation that you criticised
Ms Williams for not having obtained for the in-house media buying. Do
you dispute that?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s a n d n o . I d i s p u t e – I – t h i s i s a t h i n g o f t h i s y e s a n d
no answers Chairperson. The issue is that that dispensation if it was in
place we would not be having this problem, but the fact that that
dispensation was not yet in place.

Did not mean we did the

irregularities that Ms Williams and her team committed – splitting
invoices.
There is a whole list of things that they have done which even

10

without the regulation you should not be doing. So most of what was
d o n e w a s r e a l l y t h e i l l e g a l s t u ff .

That it – you did not need any

r e g u l a t i o n . Yo u d i d n o t n e e d a n y d i s p e n s a t i o n . B e g y o u r p a r d o n . Yo u
did not need – you do not need a dispensation to say do not split
invoices.
There is a regulation already on that.

Do not do that, but

they were doing it and in fact they were saying this is how GCIS does
its business. One of the recommendations I had said here in that - in
my submission is that what this Commission should do is to investigate
20

the splitting of invoicing by GCIS before, because this is one of these
people interviewed here was saying no one – somebody I think at a
director level was saying it was never brought in as an irregularity for
m e , b u t t h i s i s g e n e r a l l y h o w w e d o t h i n g s h e r e . Yo u k n o w.
So that you do not need a dispensation for and this was my
centre of the criticism. A lot of the things that were done that were just

Page 143 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
not

following

any

prescript.

That

do

not

require

a

particular

dispensation.
ADV HOFMEYR: Mr Manyi do you accept that there was an extensive
i n v e s t i g a t i o n c o n d u c t e d o n t h i s m a t t e r b y N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y ?
MR MANYI: On which matter?
ADV HOFMEYR:

The matter that you have just referred to.

The R7

million. The splitting of invoices ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: Like these.
10

MR MANYI:

Chairperson there are two issues which we must not

confuse. The one issue is centralisation of the media bulk buying. The
issue at hand here we are not dealing with – the issue at hand here
was a particular service provider who himself is not a media house as it
were. The name is there.
They are not a media house and the irregular appointment of
that service provider would obviously have gone to – go and get media
somewhere.

H e w a s h i m s e l f n o t a s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r.

confuse issues.

So we must not

T h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n v e s t i g a t i o n w a s n o t a b o u t

media bulk buying.
20

It was about the irregular appointment of that particular
service provider and the rest of what happened as a result of that
irregular appointment. So my criticism was around the appointment of
that service provider and the irregularities that flew from that.

The

m e d i a b u y i n g i s s u e i s n o t e v e n a ff e c t e d b y t h i s t h i n g .
It is a separate matter of trying to consolidate resources. It

Page 144 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
is a positive process of making sure that we get economies of scale,
but there is nothing in media buying that requires the shortcuts that the
people were doing and payment commitments, splitting of invoices and
all of that. So let us not confuse issues.
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a n y i i t m a y b e l a t e i n t h e d a y, b u t w e a r e

completely at cross purposes. I was moving to the very thing that you
s a y t h i s C o m m i s s i o n m u s t i n v e s t i g a t e . Yo u s a y t h i s C o m m i s s i o n m u s t
investigate this irregular expenditure that occurred prior to you joining
GCIS. Is that correct?
10

MR MANYI:

No.

I said they must investigate – there is too broad a

t e r m . I w a s v e r y s p e c i f i c a n d n a r r o w. T h e s p l i t t i n g o f i n v o i c e s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

Mr Manyi is that a matter that was

i n v e s t i g a t e d e x t e n s i v e l y b y t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y ?
MR MANYI: That – well that was one of the things. Not ...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MR MANYI: It is not specifically that.
ADV HOFMEYR: No, but the one that you say you are interested in the
splitting of the invoices that amongst other things ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: Ja.
20

ADV HOFMEYR: Was fully investigated ...(intervenes).
MR MANYI: H’mm.
A D V H O F M E Y R : B y t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MANYI:

Ja.

That – there was an – that was an incident

i n v e s t i g a t i o n . Ye s C h a i r. T h e r e w a s a n i n c i d e n t t h a t s a i d t h a t a n d m y
request was to do a much broader investigation.

Page 145 of 151

That was just an

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
incident of one company or two companies that were involved in this.
So that is what the issue was.
It is not only the splitting of invoices that was investigated.
It was also the irregular appointment and a lot of other things.
ADV HOFMEYR: Are you aware that the matter relating to the specific
s p l i t t i n g o n i n v o i c e s o n t h e S t a t s S A c o n t r a c t f o r C e n s u s 2 0 11 b e c a m e
the subject matter of court proceedings?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I a m a w a r e .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

And that the claim made by the service provider to

GCIS Light Fuse was dismissed?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h a t ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. The – one of the last points that I want to
deal with and Chair my suggestion is if the follow-on matters
particularly given that we are going to be delving into the salary issue.
W e m a y i n i t i a l l y e n g a g e o n a ff i d a v i t w i t h M r M a n y i . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: About that...(intervenes).

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: And then take it forward ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR: But I would just like on the question of disciplining of
s t a ff – M r M a n y i M s W i l l i a m s s a y s i n h e r a ff i d a v i t t h a t t h e r e w a s t h i s
extensive

investigation.

There

were

disciplinary

Page 146 of 151

processes

that

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
followed it within GCIS and at no point in the disciplinary process was
she ever disciplined. Do you accept that?
M R M A N Y I : T h i s i s t h e d i s p u t e o f t h e i s s u e C h a i r. T h e i s s u e w a s t h a t
t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e p r i m a f a c i f i n g e r e d w e r e t h e j u n i o r s t a ff . S o t h e
D D G ’s w e r e t h e p e o p l e t h a t d i d t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s t o t h e j u n i o r s t a ff a n d
a l o t h a p p e n e d t h e r e . N o t h i n g h a p p e n e d t o a n y o f t h e D D G ’s i n c l u d i n g
Ms Williams. That is the factual position.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Did you hold the view at the time that Ms Williams

should be disciplined?
10

MR MANYI:

I d i d n o t h o l d a n y v i e w a g a i n s t a n y b o d y.

I wanted an

investigation. I wanted an investigation. So the first phase in my mind
was to start at the lower levels where a lot of action is happening. The
s e n i o r s t a ff t h e y a r e a b i t m o r e s o p h i s t i c a t e d . S o I w a s h o p i n g t h a t t h e
N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y R e p o r t b e c a u s e i t w a s g o i n g t o d o t h a t , b e c a u s e
what they did.
T h e y w e n t t h r o u g h e v e r y b o d y i n c l u d i n g D D G ’s .
laptops and all of this.

They took

T h e y d i d t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y

including everyone. I did not do anything. Basically – personally not
on anyone.
20

N o t e v e n o n j u n i o r s t a ff .

J u n i o r s t a ff w a s p r o c e s s e d b y

their line managers at a particular level.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Do you accept that it is your responsibility as the

A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r o f G C I S t o h a v e e n s u r e d t h a t a n y p e r s o n s w h o
engage in irregular expenditure should have been disciplined?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . C o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

So I have your evidence to be at the time that you

Page 147 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
were GCIS you did not for the view that Ms Williams had engaged in
irregular expenditure?
MR MANYI:

I did not have evidence Chair and I was not going to

a c c u s e d h e r, b u t I w a s h o p i n g t h a t b e c a u s e w e h a v e g o t a Tr e a s u r y
Report that she is also part of it. I will be informed by the outcome of
that report. Unfortunately when it came out I was already gone.
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

I just suggest we take up the

r e m a i n d e r p o i n t s i n a n e x c h a n g e w i t h M r M a n y i o n a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . T h a t i s f i n e . S o t h a t m e a n s M r M a n y i y o u
10

m a y b e r e q u e s t e d t o d e a l w i t h c e r t a i n q u e s t i o n s b y w a y o f a ff i d a v i t , b u t
for now we will stop here because we also do not want you to miss your
flight, but thank you very much for taking part and for giving your
evidence.

So I will then now adjourn the proceedings, but thank you

very much.
M R M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a i r, b u t a s I g o C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI: For the record.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MR MANYI:
20

Noting that the Chair has adjourned, but for the record

when I said and I want to just in my parting shot where I say
Ms Williams lies.

She lies because she says mine investigation

b a s i c a l l y I r e s o l v e d h e r. I h a v e n o f i n d i n g s o n h e r a n d t h e f a c t o f t h e
m a t t e r i s t h a t I n e v e r i n v e s t i g a t e d h e r.
So I cannot have findings without having investigated you.
That is the one point.

The second point, she says the National

Page 148 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
Tr e a s u r y R e p o r t d i d n o t h a v e a n y f i n d i n g s a g a i n s t h e r. I w a n t t o c l o s e
b y s a y i n g t h e C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d l o o k a t t h e Tr e a s u r y R e p o r t o n
C l a u s e 8 . 1 . 1 . 8 a n d C l a u s e 8 . 1 . 2 . 11 .
Those clauses are very specific that she did not have
delegated authority to make the commitments to those – commitment of
pay notices. It is written there. So as – in the list of findings. So you
c a n n o t t h e n s a y t h e r e a r e n o f i n d i n g s a g a i n s t y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I think Mr Manyi I must excuse
you because you might have to run.
10

So you are excused.

Ye s .

Ms Hofmeyr you probably need to say something about Ms Oliphant,
because we spoke yesterday on the basis that she would appear today
...(intervenes).
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And the public may be wondering.
A D V H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m . I n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o p l a c e s o m e t h i n g o n r e c o r d ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . J u s t t o c l a r i f y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
ADV HOFMEYR: When I referred yesterday to the fact that she would

20

be giving evidence and I think I indicated today that was based on an
assumption that I held at the time.

That the necessary arrangements

h a d b e e n m a d e w i t h M s O l i p h a n t f o r h e r t o a p p e a r t o d a y.

At the

c o n c l u s i o n o f y e s t e r d a y ’s h e a r i n g I w a s i n f o r m e d t h a t t h a t h a d n o t i n
fact taken place.
There

have

been

regular

engagements

Page 149 of 151

or

attempts

at

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
engaging with Ms Oliphant. The last of those I am – I understand have
not been responded to by Ms Oliphant and that is why we find
ourselves in the position where I had assumed there had been contact.
As a matter of fact I understand that despite repeated attempts to make
contact with her there has not been contact.
The consequence of that is that she is not here today to give
evidence, but certainly my proposal is that steps be taken to ensure
that she does give evidence on the important matters we have been
a d d r e s s i n g y e s t e r d a y a n d t o d a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: No. That is fine. So the matter must receive further
consideration.

A l l o b v i o u s l y a l s o t a k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t y e s t e r d a y ’s

e v i d e n c e a n d t o d a y ’s e v i d e n c e i n s o f a r a s i t m a y b e r e l e v a n t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

We are going to adjourn. At this stage we certainly

are not sitting tomorrow and at this stage we are not sitting next week,
because next week was set aside for the further appearance of the
former President who will not be appearing for his reasons that have
b e e n g i v e n p u b l i c a l l y, b u t s h o u l d t h e r e b e s o m e d a y s n e x t w e e k t h a t
will be used for the hearing. The public will be informed.
20

We adjourn.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S S I N E D I E

Page 150 of 151

07 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 188
TRANSCRIBER’S CERTIFICATE FOR COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE
CAPTURE
HELD AT
BRAAMFONTEIN, JOHANNESBURG

DATE HELD

: 2019-11-07

DAY:

: 188

TRANSCRIBERS

: B KLINE; M NETTA; D STANIFORTH

Audio’s are typed verbatim, as far as audible/possible

Page 151 of 151