C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

8 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 2 8

20

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E O N 8 J U LY 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

M r C h a ir m a n m i g h t I b e g

le a v e t o h a n d u p Ex h ib i t F F 11 w h ic h is s ta t e m e n t t h a t c o n s is t s o f
A m b a s s a d o r M a t ji la ’s s ta t e m e n t, t h e b u n d l e h a s t h a t s ta t e m e n t t o g e t h e r
10

with the statement of…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I beg leave to hand it up.

M i g h t I a ls o

h a n d u p F F 1 2 a s w e ll b e c a u s e w e m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o i t. T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI

NORMAN

SC:

Th a n k

you

Mr

C h a ir m a n .

Might

A m b a s s a d o r M a t jil a b e s w o r n i n ? T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e a d m i n is t e r th e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :
20

My name is Jerry

M a t t h e w s M a t ji la .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : N o o b j e c ti o n .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l
g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u t h ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o

Page 2 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u l y a ffir m ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I tr u ly a ff ir m .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u m a y s i t . Th a n k y o u . Yo u
may proceed Ms Norman.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . A m b a s s a d o r
M a t jil a c o u l d y o u – y o u w o u l d h a v e b e f o r e y o u Ex h i b it F F 11 .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is a p r e s e n ta t io n fi l e a n d if y o u o p e n i t
10

u n d e r th e d iv i d e r m a r k e d N u m b e r 1 .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll M s N o r m a n s h o u l d w e n o t e n t e r t h i s i n to th e

r e c o r d f ir s t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s , y e s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e fi le c o n t a i n in g t h e a ffi d a v it o f M r J e r r y M a t t h e w s
M a t jil a w i ll b e m a r k e d a s E x h i b i t F F11 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

A s C h a ir p e r s o n p le a s e s .

T h e n u n d e r 1 t h a t y o u – y o u w il l s e e t h e r e i s a n a ff id a v i t t h a t h a s y o u r
n a m e o n i t , is t h a t t h e a ffi d a v it t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d f o r t h e c o m m i s s io n
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s M a ’ a m .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n c o u ld y o u p l e a s e tu r n t o p a g e 6
of that bundle.

T h e r e is a s i g n a t u r e t h e r e a n d a ls o a s t a m p fr o m t h e

S o u th A f r i c a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e , is t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e t h a t a p p e a r s o n
that page
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s M a ’ a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d a r e t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h is a ff id a v i t

Page 3 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I t is tr u e M a ’ a m b u t I

w a n t e d t o m a k e s o m e i f p o s s i b le s o m e c o r r e c t io n s if y o u … .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W o u ld y o u p le a s e id e n ti fy t h o s e w i th
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

C h a ir I w o u l d l ik e t o

r e fe r t o F F 4 – i s i t 4 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit FF?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : N o J M M 4 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ex h ib i t
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 4.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh is it…
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : P a g e 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h j a . O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

S h e w il l r e f e r t o p a g e s w h e n s h e s p e a k s – a s k y o u

q u e s t io n s w it h o u t m e n ti o n i n g t h e i n i t ia ls o n t h e p a g e n u m b e r s s o d o n o t
g e t c o n f u s e d w h e n s h e d o e s t h a t. S h e w ill j u s t fo c u s o n th e n u m b e r s
w i t h o u t t h e l e tt e r s . S o f o r e x a m p l e w h e n s h e s a y s p a g e 4 s h e w il l b e
m e a n i n g J M M 4 s o … - s o b u t y o u w e r e r i g h t t o s a y J M M 4 b e c a u s e th a t
is w h a t is w r i t t e n t h e r e .

Page 4 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h a n k s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t s o y e s .
AMBASSADOR

JERRY

M AT T H E W S

M ATJ I L A :

Chair

the

f ir s t

c o r r e c t io n I w a n te d to m a k e is o n p a r a g r a p h A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : O n 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Is th e n a m e o f – o f t h e
10

spokesperson of DIRCO.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

It is M r C l a y s o n

M o n y e l a n o w th e r e i t i s Mr C l a y s o M o n y e la t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : S o n o w I w a n t t o th a t to
M r C la y s o n M o n y e la t h a t is th e fir s t c o r r e c ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I w a n t t o m a k e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

And after Monyela I

w a n t e d t o s tr i k e o n t h a t 2 – s o i t is M o n y e l a a n d w e s tr ik e t h e f ir s t 2 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR

JERRY

M AT T H E W S

M AT J I LA :

[i n d is t in c t]

th a t

the

c o r r e c t io n .

so

is

second

c o r r e c t io n …

Page 5 of 183

C la y s o n
C h a ir

Monyela
th e

th ir d

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON: I a m sorry I think the one that you referred to as the
s e c o n d i s t h e o n e I t h o u g h t w a s t h e fi r s t .

I a m n o w lo o k in g f o r th e

w h e t h e r t h e f ir s t i s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

I f i t is t h e fir s t t h e n

w h e n y o u s a y C la y s o n M o n y e la t h e n i f y o u s tr ik e t h a t 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h I t h i n k t h e o n e t h a t I p ic k e d u p w h i c h I th o u g h t

y o u s a i d w a s t h e fir s t i s t h e o n e th a t s a y s M r C l a y s o n M o n y e la t o . T h a t
is n o w t h e fir s t o n e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :
10

N o th a t is t h e o n e .

Fi r s t i t i s C la y s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh that is the one?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

I t is n a ft e r s o –

Clayson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e n M o n y e l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h e TO s h o u ld n o t b e t h e r e
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h a t is r i g h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e r e s h o u ld b e a a n a f t e r s o – in C la y s o n .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : R i g h t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is th e fir s t o n e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : N o i t is t h e f ir s t a n d t h e
s e c o n d in t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h fir s t a n d s e c o n d o k a y y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :
precise.

Page 6 of 183

Ja.

I w a n te d t o b e

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o y o u a r e p r e c i s e .
AMBASSADOR

JERRY

M AT T H E W S

M ATJ I L A :

Chair

the

t h ir d

c o r r e c t io n i n o n B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

The name of the

M i n is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
spelt.
10

Is not is not properly

H e r n a m e i s M i n i s te r M a it e N k o a n a - M a s h a b a n e .

S o t h e r e i t is

M i n is t e r N k o a n a - M a s h a b a n e M a i t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

S o i t is t o c o r r e c t t h a t

C h a ir i f th e C h a ir a ll o w s m e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t w a s …
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I t is a ty p o e r r o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s – th a t w a s y o u r – w a s t h a t y o u r t y p is t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h o p e i t w a s n o t t h e c o m m is s i o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : M a y b e C h a ir i t w a s t h e
20

c o m m i s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

I do not want to be

d ir e c t b u t m a y b e i t i s t h e c o m m is s i o n t y p is t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e ty p i s t i s s i t t in g r i g h t b e h i n d m e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Page 7 of 183

B u t C h a ir p l e a s e i t is

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
n o t h i s p r o b l e m I s h o u ld h a v e e d i t e d t h a t m y s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : S o th a t i s n o t t o d o w it h
him
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t fi n e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : S o p le a s e s a v e h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e th ir d c o r r e c t i o n
is th e – t h e n a m e o f D D G M a h o a i th e n D D G H R . C h a i r I w a n t to r e c o r d
10

t h a t h e w a s n o t p r e s e n t i n th e s a i d m e e ti n g w i th t h e M i n i s te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

S o i f w e c a n s tr ik e i t

o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

It w a s A m b a s s a d o r

K o lo a n e [i n d is t in c t] o f P r o t o c o l a n d Mr C l a y s o n M o n y e l a .

So DDG

M a h o a i w a s n o t t h e r e a n d I a p o l o g i s e C h i a r. S o w e c a n s t r ik e i t o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e n C h a i r o n 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Page 2?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 2?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : P a g e 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : B 3 r o m a n 3 [i ii ] .

Page 8 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I t s a y s : ‘t h e n a tu r e o f

t h e v is it s t a t e ’ t h e n t h e r e is a v t h e r e . I t is n o t th a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

It is s u p p o s e d t o b e

“ t h e n a tu r e o f t h e s ta t e v i s i ts ” t h e n s e m i c o l o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e n i t s a y s s ta t e v is i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

O ffic i a l v is it a n d t h e n

on 4
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

Can be a summit or

p r i v a t e . S o t h i s 4 c a n [ i n d is ti n c t ] v is i t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o b u t t h e t y p i n g s k i ll s w e r e v e r y p o o r h e r e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

W e w il l i m p r o v e w i t h

t h a t C h a ir a s t i m e g o e s o n . S o th a t i s t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a it s h o u l d b e s t a te v is i t ; o ff ic ia l v i s i t .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : O ff ic ia l v i s i t d u r in g th e
20

s u m m i t w h e n th e P r e s i d e n t c o m e o r a p r i v a te v is it . S o i t is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

S o i t is fo u r ty p e o f

v is it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Page 9 of 183

B e c a u s e th e y g o t t h e

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
v a r io u s w h a t y o u c a l l. S o t h a t i s t h e c o r r e c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d I w a n t e d t h e C h a i r
t o u n d e r s ta n d i t t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

And then the second

o n e C h a ir is t h e y k n o w th e b u z z th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Yo u k n o w fr o m r o m a n iv
10

to roman vi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : O n t h a t B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y a r e y o u s ti ll o n t h e s a m e B r o m a n f i g u r e s ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : B y e s r o m a n fi g u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : iv, v v i , v i i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d th e n r o m a n fi g u r e I ,
ii , i ii , iv. S o C h a ir y o u m a y h a v e tw o n o t e v e r b a l e s ’

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e fi r s t o n e j u s t a s k i n g
for the visit.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e n w h e n t h e n u m b e r
1 o r t h e [ in d is ti n c t ] y e s w h e n t h e d e t a il s c o m e b e c a u s e o f s e c u r i ty.

Page 10 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I f a n o t e v e r b a l e w h ic h
n o w a s k a b o u t t h e l e n d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

That ask about –

b e c a u s e y o u w a n t t o p r o t e c t th e s e c u r it y o f th e g u e s ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

A n d n o r m a lly a t t h a t

p o i n t s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s t a k e o v e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

B e c a u s e i t is l e s s –

b e c a u s e o f t h e c u r r e n t e n v ir o n m e n t in w h ic h w e a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Yo u k n o w t h e r e a r e s o

m a n y t h r e a ts t o h e a d s o f s t a te s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e y h a v e d i ff e r e n t
c la s s if ic a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

S o s o m e ti m e a t t h a t

d e t a i l e d le v e l t h e s e c u r i t y s e r v i c e s t a k e h i m o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :
in t e r a c ti o n b e tw e e n s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s .
CHAIRPERSON: And DIRCO.

Page 11 of 183

So there may be

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A m o n g th e m s e lv e s a n d
o n e p e r s o n in D IR C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

S o b e c a u s e it is th e

d e t a i ls n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : O r th e m o v e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
10

O f t h e c h ie f g u e s ts .

I

ju s t w a n t e d t o
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR

JERRY

M AT T H E W S

M ATJ I L A :

To

make

that

u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : M a y b e t a l k i n g a b o u t t w o
n o t e v e r b a l e . T h e f ir s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : To tr i g g e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

And then the second

o n e th e d e t a i ls n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d e t a i ls j a .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :
fl ig h t p a t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 12 of 183

When you ask for a

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e n th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d a l l t h o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : C h a ir t h a n k s t h o s e w e r e
the few changes that…
CHAIRPERSON: That you picked up.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I w a n t e d t o i n d u lg e y o u
w i t h C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h a n k s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e w i ll m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts a f t e r w a r d s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t w h ic h w il l d e a l w i th t h is
t o s a y i n t h is a ff id a v i t I h a v e p i c k e d u p t h e f o l l o w i n g c o r r e c ts . T h is is
h o w it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n . B a s ic a lly w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d u s to b e p u t in
a n a ffi d a v it f o r m . O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h a n k s C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . Th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

T h a n k y o u . A m b a s s a d o r c a n I p l e a s e t a k e y o u to – to p a g e 8 t h a t i s
w h e r e y o u r p r o f il e a p p e a r s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : R i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C o u l d y o u ju s t s u m m a r i s e – y o u h a v e s t a r t e d it

Page 13 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
– it s t a r ts fr o m 2 0 – i n f a c t i t s ta r t s fr o m 2 0 0 6 m a y b e y o u s h o u l d s t a r t
fr o m p a g e 7 b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e y o u s t a r t f r o m 2 0 0 1 , 2 0 0 6 a n d t h e n
take us through your career and where you have served the country as
a n a m b a s s a d o r i n v a r i o u s s t a t e s t h r o u g h o u t th e w o r l d .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

C h a ir I h a d t w o li v e s .

T h e r e w a s a li f e b e f o r e 1 9 9 4 w h e r e I s e r v e d t h e c u r r e n t r u l in g p a r t y a s
t h e ir e n v o y.
CHAIRPERSON: YEs.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I n f o r e i g n c o u n t r i e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : In S w e d e n w h e r e w e r u n
t h e o ffic e to m o b i li s e i n t e r n a ti o n a l s u p p o r t , s o li d a r i t y a n d t h e r e s o u r c e s
t o s u p p o r t t h e s tr u g g le s i n S o u th A fr ic a . A n d t h e n t h e t h e n P r e s id e n t o f
t h e A N C O liv e r Th a m b o t h e n m o v e d m e fr o m S w e d e n t o J a p a n , To k y o t o
o p e n u p t h e fi r s t A N C o ffi c e in N o r th P a c i fi c d e a l in g w i t h J a p a n , S o u t h
K o r e a , C h i n a , M a l a y s i a , In d o n e s i a , B r u n e i a l l th o s e c o u n t r i e s i n t h e
N o r t h P a c i fi c a g a i n f o r t h e s a m e r e a s o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : To m o b i lis e s u p p o r t f o r

20

t h e A N C . M o b i li s e m a t e r i a l s u p p o r t t o c o n d u c t t h e s tr u g g le s , to a s k t h e
c o u n tr i e s t o i m p l e m e n t s a n c t i o n s . I n t e r n a l ly s p e a k i n g to m a k e p e o p l e
c o n s c i o u s a b o u t t h e b r u ta li t ie s o f a p a r t h e i d .

A n d t h e n C h a ir i n th a t

c o n te x t I r e c e iv e d P r e s i d e n t M a n d e l a t w ic e i n J a p a n . In 1 9 9 0 w h e n h e
w a s r e le a s e d a n d 1 9 9 1 . A n d t h e n a f t e r t h e r u li n g p a r ty w a s u n b a n n e d I
u s e d t o c o m e h o m e t e m p o r a r ily. W e w e r e g i v e n a w e e k to c o m e h o m e

Page 14 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a n d b a c k in t o e x il e o r t h r e e w e e k s t o g o b a c k i n t o e x il e . T h a t to r t u r o u s
p e r i o d o f y o u r li f e w h e r e y o u ta s t e h o m e , t h e n y o u g o b a c k in t o e x il e .
B u t fi n a ll y C h a ir I c a m e b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A f t e r v o ti n g i n To k y o . I
v o t e d in To k y o .
CHAIRPERSON: In 1994?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : 1 9 9 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e n I c a m e h o m e w i t h
m y f a m il y a n d t h e n w o r k c a m e i n to D IR C O 1 A u g u s t 1 9 9 4 . W e w e r e 1 7
o f u s w h o w e r e f o r m e r A N C e n v o y s a b r o a d c a ll e d C h i e f R e p r e s e n t a t iv e
w h o w e r e t h e n m o v e d t o t h e th e n D e p a r t m e n t o f F o r e i g n A ff a ir s a s
D e p u ty D i r e c t o r s .

S o t h a t is h o w I w a s i n d u c t e d a n d t h a t w a s m y

s e c o n d l i fe n o w. T h is t i m e a r o u n d s e r v i n g a d e m o c r a ti c S o u th A f r i c a .
A n d t h e n C h a i r I w a s t h e n p o s te d t o I n d ia a s t h e fir s t S o u th A f r i c a n
H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r t o I n d ia t o o p e n u p t h e e m b a s s y t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :
20

I n In d ia u n ti l 1 9 9 9 .

C a m e h o m e , g e t p r o m o t e d to a C h ie f D ir e c t o r a n d s e r v e d in t h e o ffi c e
o f t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l a t t h a t t i m e . A n d in 2 0 0 1 I w a s t h e n p o s t e d t o
B e lg iu m t o E u r o p e a n U n io n a s a n d E n v o y t h e r e b u t a ls o c o v e r i n g th e
Grand Duke of Luxemburg.

S o it w a s b o t h b i la t e r a l B e l g i u m / S o u th

A fr ic a , L u x e m b u r g / S o u t h A f r i c a a n d m u l ti la t e r a l w i t h t h e E u r o p e a n
U n i o n a n d p a r t o f t h a t w a s b e c a u s e a t t h a t ti m e t h e E u r o p e a n U n i o n

Page 15 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
w a s t h e b ig g e s t tr a d i n g p a r t n e r o f S o u t h A fr i c a , c l o s e 6 0 % o f o u r tr a d e
was European Union.

And there were a number of agreement to be

n e g o ti a te d w i t h t h e E u r o p e a n U n i o n f o r m a r k e t a c c e s s o f o u r p r o d u c ts .
L ik e w i n e s a n d s p ir it s w e w e r e a m i d - s iz e m a r k e ti n g o f w i n e s a n d
s p i r i ts t o t h e E u r o p e a n U n i o n a n d w a n te d t o t a k e u p t h e – m o r e q u o t a s
a n d p a r t o f t h a t w a s b e c a u s e o f j o b c r e a t i o n s i n t h e w in e i n d u s t r y. B u t
a ls o b e c a u s e o f t h e fo r e ig n e x c h a n g e s o w e m a n a g e d t o g e t a d d i t io n a l
q u o t a s f r o m 2 1 t o 5 2 – 5 1 m il li o n li tr e s o f w i n e .
s e l li n g o f t h e c a r s .
10

A n d th e n t h e a u to

B e c a u s e C h a ir y o u r e c a l l th e n e w d e m o c r a c y th e

lo c a l c o n te n t o f o u r c a r s t h e r e w a s a b o u t 5 / 6 % b u t w e a r e r e v v i n g u p
lo c a l c o n t e n t . W e a r e p r o d u c i n g m o r e p a r ts i n S o u th A f r i c a . A n d o n c e
t h e y r e a c h e d 6 6 % , 6 7 % l o c a l c o n t e n t t h e – t h a t t h r e s h o ld t h e – i n te r m s
o f t h e – t h e r u s e o f o r i g i n y o u c a n s a y i t i s m y c a r. S o th a t a t t h e t i m e
w e r e a c h e d th a t t h r e s h o ld o f 6 6 % o f c o n t e n t o f t h e c a r s w e c o u l d th e n
s e n d th e m d u ty fr e e t o t h e E u r o p e a n U n i o n .
agreement.

S o w e h a d to h a v e t h a t

A n d th e th ir d o n e w a s o n t h e S c i e n c e a n d Te c h n o l o g y

A g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e w e a r e a n e w d e m o c r a c y o b s o l e te te c h n o l o g i e s y o u
have

to

a g a in

m o b il is e

new

m a n u f a c t u r in g in p a r tic u la r.
20

H e a lt h e d u c a ti o n .

technologies

for

th e

in p u t

i n to

Te l e c o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d o th e r s y s t e ms .

S o w e th e n h a d a n a g r e e m e n t w i th th e E u r o p e a n

U n i o n o n S c i e n c e a n d R e s e a r c h . S o f o r e v e r y s c ie n ti s t t h e y s e n t h e r e
w e s e n t s c i e n t is t t o E u r o p e a n U n io n i n t h a t c a s e w e c r e a t e t h e c a p a c i t y
a n d y o u k n o w fo r m a n u f a c t u r i n g . B u t t h e s u m t o ta l o f a ll t h is C h a ir w a s
t h a t y o u s e e a g r o w t h i n t e r m s o f t h e q u a n t a n t o f t r a d e fr o m m in e r a l
r e s o u r c e s , fr o m r a w m a t e r ia l y o u s e e t h e q u a n t a n t i n c r e a s e s . S o t h a t

Page 16 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
w a s p a r t o f r e s p o n s i b i li ty. B u t a l s o b e c a u s e w e u s e d t o g e t a g r a n t , a n
e n v e l o p e , E u r o p e a n D e v e l o p m e n t F u n d in t h e r e g i o n o f a b o u t 1 3 0
m il li o n E u r o s fr e e g r a n t s t o h e l p S o u t h A fr i c a a n d th a t f u n d w a s v e r y
n e c e s s a r y f o r u s b e c a u s e y o u r e c a ll C h a i r w e a r e s t il l d e v e l o p i n g th e
c a p a c i ty o f l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t, p r o v in c i a l g o v e r n m e n t , e v e n n a t i o n a l
g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts i n te r m s o f p o l ic y s y s t e m p r o c e d u r e s . I t w a s
a p e r i o d w h e r e w e – t h is n e w d e m o c r a c y w a s b u i l d i n g s y s t e ms t o m a k e
s u r e t h a t w e c a n fu n c t io n e ffi c i e n t ly.

A t t h e s a m e ti m e e s t a b l is h i n g

in s t i tu t io n s lik e H u m a n R ig h ts a n d o th e r s f o r a c c o u n t a b il i ty p u r p o s e s t o
10

m a k e s u r e t h a t th e r e is a – t h e r e is a s y s t e m o f a c c o u n ta b i li ty. S o t h e
e x e c u tiv e c a n b e h e ld a c c o u n t a b l e .

S o t h is w a s v e r y n i c e a n d v e r y

fr a g il e , v e r y n e w s y s t e m s s o w e n e e d e d g r a n ts t h a t d o e s n o t b u r d e n
t h e f is c u s i n t h a t a r e a o f w o r k b u t a ls o to e x p o s e b u r e a u c r a t s , o ff ic ia ls
t o t h o s e c o u n tr ie s t o g o a n d l e n d , to g o a n d s tu d y h o w o t h e r c o u n tr i e s
h a v e d e a l t w i th th e s e is s u e s . T h e is s u e h e r e C h a ir w a s to m a k e s u r e
t h a t a s t h i s n e w d e m o c r a c y t a k e r o o ts i n t h e P a r l ia m e n t , i n t h e
e x e c u tiv e , i n b u r e a u c r a c y a t a ll le v e l o f g o v e r n m e n t s th e r e is a
c a p a c i ty b e i n g c r e a t e d b e c a u s e i t d o e s t a k e t i m e . M o r e s o i t w a s in t h e
c o n te x t
20

of

tr a n s fo r m a ti o n .

R a c ia l

issues,

perceptions

is s u e s ,

m o v e m e n t o f p e o p l e fr o m r u r a l t o u r b a n , n e w d e p a r t m e n ts , n e w
o ffic i a ls , n e w a c q u a in t a n c e s , g o v e r n a n c e .

S o i t w a s a p e r io d w h e r e

t h e r e w a s s o m u c h in f lu x s o w e n e e d e d t h a t t y p e o f e n v e l o p e f r o m
E u r o p e a n U n io n w h ic h c o u ld b e u s e d to c a p a c i t a te .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : F o r e x a m p le w e – th e n

Page 17 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
w e g o t f u n d s i n 2 0 0 3 f o r L i m p o p o t o tr a in l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t o ffi c i a l s t o
k n o w w h a t i t is t o b e a l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t . To b e M E C , t o b e a M a y o r, to
b e M L A , h o w t o r e s p o n d t o th e p e o p l e ’s t h i n g s , h o w y o u s tu d y
le g i s l a ti o n s e tc e t e r a , e tc e te r a . S o t h a t w a s t h a t p e r i o d . S o p a r t o f o u r
r e s p o n s i b i li ty C h a ir w a s to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h a t m o n e y c o n ti n u e s t o
fl o w. C h a ir I w a s g iv i n g th e e x te n s io n b y Pr e s id e n t M b e k i . P r e s i d e n t
M a n d e la w a s – w h e n h e w a s In d i a n o w P r e s i d e n t M b e k i i s i n c h a r g e s o
h e s e n t m e t o B r u s s e ls . S o h e g a v e m e o n e y e a r e x te n s i o n b e c a u s e a t
t h a t ti m e I w a s a s s is t in g w i t h t h e C o n g o l e s e is s u e .
10

Yo u r e c a ll t h e r e

w a s a S u n C i ty P r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : W h e r e S o u t h A f r i c a w a s
helping the Congolese.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

To fi n d p e a c e a n d n o w

m o s t o f t h e m w e r e b a s e d i n Br u s s e ls i n B e lg iu m s o I h a v e t o m a k e s u r e
t h a t t h e y a r e a s s i s t e d to g o t o S u n C i ty s o th a t th e – a s e x c l u s i v e a s
p o s s i b le , tr a n s p a r e n t s o t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y C o n g o le s e a t h o m e –
a b r o a d c a n o w n u p t o t h e p r o c e s s a n d t h a t is w h a t [i n d is ti n c t ] is . S o
20

f o r th is r e a s o n Pr e s i d e n t M b e k i g a v e m e a n e x te n s i o n . S o I c a m e b a c k
in 2 0 0 6 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : W h e n I c a m e b a c k 2 0 0 6
C h a ir I w a s th e n g iv e n v a r i o u s r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s in g o v e r n m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 18 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Yo u k n o w I w a s a D D G
Asia / Middle East.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

And part of that was

b e c a u s e p e r h a p s Pr e s i d e n t M b e k i t h o u g h t I k n o w As i a s in c e I w e n t
there in 1988.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

A n d I d e a l t w i th t h o s e

c o u n tr i e s in t h e a r e a . B u t p a r t o f t h is w a s b e c a u s e – p a r t o f m y c a r e e r
10

w a s t o d e v e l o p t h e s tr a te g y fo r g o v e r n m e n t, th e p o lic y f o r g o v e r n m e n t .
S o t h e n w e h a d to d e v e l o p t h e s tr a te g y f o r In d ia , s tr a t e g y fo r C h i n a ,
s tr a t e g y f o r t h e G u l f , s tr a te g y f o r J a p a n .

How do we access those

m a r k e t s ? A n d w e h a v e a r o l e to p l a y b e c a u s e w e s a w a h u g e p o t e n t i a l
in A s i a / M id d l e E a s t . A t t h a t t i m e C h a ir t h e tr a d e b e t w e e n S o u th A fr ic a
a n d A s i a / M i d d le E a s t w a s n o t t h a t p r o n o u n c e d b u t w e t h o u g h t w e c a n
d o b e t t e r. A n d s o o v e r a p e r i o d o f ti m e l ik e n o w y o u s e e th e b i g g e s t
m a r k e t o f S o u t h A fr ic a is n o lo n g e r E u r o p e a n y m o r e i t i s A s i a / M i d d l e
E a s t . A l m o s t R 8 8 0 b il li o n c lo s e to a tr il li o n w i th t h e E U is a l m o s t h a l f
of that so you could see that change.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : O r t h e [i n d is t in c t ] S o u t h
A fr ic a n F o r e i g n P o l ic y fr o m E u r o p e , As i a / M id d le E a s t , L a t in A m e r ic a n
a n d A fr ic a h a v e b o r n e fr u i ts f o r t h e e c o n o m y. S o t h a t w a s p a r t o f o u r
r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o d o b u t a t t h e s a m e ti m e w e h a d to d e a l w i th B R I C S
f o r m a ti o n .

I d e v e l o p e d t h e B R I C S s t r a t e g y.

Page 19 of 183

W h a t th e g o v e r n m e n t

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
s h o u l d d o in t h e B R I C S .

W h a t is I M P S A f o c a l p o i n t In d ia , B r a z i l a n d

t h e n w e h a v e t h e m u l t il a t e r a l e n g a g e m e n t . S o y o u h a v e S o u t h A fr ic a ,
A fr ic a a n d C h in a i t is c a ll e d F O C A C I w a s t h e f o c a l p o i n t o f t h a t . H o w
d o w e a s S o u t h A f r ic a a n d A f r i c a d e a l w i t h C h i n a ?

Then you have

J a p a n , A f r i c a , i t is c a l le d T I C A D I w a s th e f o c a l p o in t f o r T IC A D . In d ia ,
A fr ic a I w a s f o c a l p o in t f o r I n d i a , A fr ic a . S o w e h a v e th e s e p o l o l a t e r a l
a r r a n g e m e n ts w h e r e A fr ic a w a s t r y i n g t o a c c e s s t h i s h u g e m e r g i n g
market going forward.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A t th e s a m e s i d e C h a ir I
m u s t a ls o m a k e th e f o c a l p o in t fo r B R I C S b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e h u g e
e m e r g i n g e c o n o m i e s t h a t w e w e r e a c c o u n t i n g f o r a c c e s s ib l e p e r c e n t a g e
o f th e g lo b a l m a r k e t .

S o t h o s e w e r e p a r t o f m y p e a c e j o b s a ft e r

[i n d is t in c t] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n y o u r s e c o n d l if e . In y o u r s e c o n d l if e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I n m y s e c o n d l i fe C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . A n d th e n …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

And then you became DG of the Department of

F o r e i g n A ff a ir s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : N o b e f o r e t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

Page 20 of 183

Then I was sent by

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
P r e s i d e n t Z u m a n o w. N o w g o v e r n m e n t h a v e c h a n g e d t o S w i tz e r l a n d a s
t h e s e c o n d A m b a s s a d o r o f t h e U n i t e d N a t i o n s in G e n e v a . U N h a v e t w o
m a jo r c e n t r e s it i s th e U N i n G e n e v a a n d t h e U N i n N e w Yo r k .

Now

G e n e v a h a v e a l o t o f U N a g e n c i e s lik e W o r ld H e a l th O r g a n i s a t io n ,
W o r l d I n te ll e c t u a l Pr o p e r t y O r g a n is a ti o n , W TO , H u m a n R i g h ts C o u n c i l ,
I P O , i t is a w h o le h u g e o f w h a t I c a l l h e a v y li f t e r s o f th e U N a r e i n
Geneva.

S o I w a s s e n t t h e r e C h a ir t o b e S o u t h A f r ic a n P e r m a n e n t

R e p r e s e n ta t iv e a t U n i te d N a ti o n s i n G e n e v a .

H u m a n R ig h ts , I L O a n d

a l l t h o s e e n ti ti e s . A n d i n th a t c a p a c i ty I w a s t h e n e l e c t e d t o c h a ir t h e
10

m i n is t e r ia l b o a r d o f IL O t o m a k e th e I L O t o h e lp t h e IL O t o d e a l w i t h
t h e is s u e s e s p e c ia ll y o f d o m e s tic w o r k e r s f a r m w o r k e r s .

So that was

p a r t o f m y r e s p o n s ib il i ty. T h e n C h a ir tw o y e a r s in t o – e ig h t e e n m o n th s
in t o th e p r o c e s s I a p p l ie d f o r a j o b o ff e r t o th e D G o f D I R C O .

When

t h a t it c o m e th e n i t m e a n s I h a v e to l e a v e G e n e v a a n d c o m e b a c k h e r e
to be the DG.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

S o I s e r v e d f iv e y e a r s

as a DG>
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s t a r t e d b e i n g D G fr o m w h ic h y e a r ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : 2 0 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 11 ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : To 3 1 M a y 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. T h a n k y o .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Fiv e y e a r c o n tr a c t .

Page 21 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

A t t h e e n d th e n I w a s

s e n t t o w h e r e I a m t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

T h e N e w Yo r k U n i t e d

N a t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h a t i s m y s h o r t li f e i n
t h e n e w li f e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u v e r y A m b a s s a d o r.
C o u ld y o u j u s t i n s u m m a r y t h e n w e d o n o t k n o w w h a t A m b a s s a d o r s d o
b u t w h a t w e k n o w is t h a t w h e n y o u g o o v e r s e a s a n d y o u g o t o t h e m e e t
t h e A m b a s s a d o r y o u g e t e n te r t a in e d , ta k e n t o l u n c h , b u t e x a c t ly w h a t
is …
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ta k e n to ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

To l u n c h .

Ja.

W e h a v e h a d v e r y k in d

A m b a s s a d o r s i n N e w Yo r k I h o p e y o u a r e t h a t k i n d ? B u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I th i n k A d v o c a te s a r e q u i te lu c k y.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

J a b u t w h a t i n s u m m a r y w h a t is i t t h a t

A m b a s s a d o r s a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o r e a lly f o r t h e c o u n tr y w h e n t h e y a r e
p o s te d e ls e w h e r e i n th e w o r l d ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

Page 22 of 183

C h a ir A m b a s s a d o r s

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
c a l l e d P le n i p o te n ti a r y a n d E x tr a o r d i n a ir e . I n o t h e r w o r d s th e y a r e th e
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o f t h e h e a d s o f s ta t e . W h e r e a h e a d o f s t a t e th r o u g h a
le t t e r o f c r e d e n ti a l s , le t t e r o f c r e d e n c e s a y s t o a c o u n t e r p a r t in th e
r e c e i v i n g s t a te l e t m e s a y in B e l g iu m . I a m s e n d i n g J e r r y M a t ji la a s m y
tr u s t e d p e r s o n s o p l e a s e a c c r e d i t h i m t o d o t h e j o b th e r e . I f y o u h a v e
a n y s e n s i ti v e is s u e y o u w a n t to c o m m u n ic a t e t o m e th a t is m y p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is m y r e p r e s e n t a tiv e .
AMBASSADOR

JERRY

M AT T H E W S

M AT J I L A :

That

is

my

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : S o y o u a r e t h e e a r s , t h e
e y e s a n d th e s p o k e s p e r s o n a l l t h e h e a d s o f s ta t e . A n d y o u r e p r e s e n t
a l l g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Th a t is w h y – t h a t i s

w h y y o u fl y t h e f la g i n y o u r c a r. T h e c a r h a s y o u r fl a g o f th e c o u n tr y.
A n d t h a t is w h y in y o u r h o u s e y o u c a ll i t t h e r e s id e n c e t h e r e i s a fl a g o f
t h e r e p u b lic t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I n t h e o ffi c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

T h a t i s w h y in y o u r

h o u s e y o u h a v e th e h e a d s o f s t a t e p h o t o t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

Page 23 of 183

T h e M i n is te r s p h o to

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : In y o u r o ffi c e y o u h a v e
them there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

Because you are

r e g a r d e d a s t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e o f t h e h e a d s o f s ta t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t is w h y I g u e s s y o u a r e – y o u a r e r e fe r r e d t o
a s H is E x c e l l e n c y i s t h a t – d o e s t h a t c o m e i n ?
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Pr e c is e l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
AMBASSADOR

JERRY

M AT T H E W S

M AT J I LA :

E x c e l le n c y

Bruce

K o lo a n e ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h a t i s w h y y o u a r e H i s
E x c e l le n c y. Ve r y f e w p e o p l e h a v e t h is ti tl e H is E x c e l l e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . S o – b u t y o u h a v e m a d e a v e r y i m p o r t a n t
p o i n t to w h ic h I t h i n k y o u w e r e – M s N o r m a n w a s s t il l g o i n g to c o m e .
Yo u s a y t h e h e a d o f s ta t e is s a y i n g t o th e r e c e iv i n g h e a d o f s ta t e th is i s
20

m y t r u s te d r e p r e s e n ta t iv e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Pr e c is e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e fo r e I a m – I t a k e i t th a t a p e r s o n o c c u p y i n g
t h e p o s i ti o n o f A m b a s s a d o r m u s t h a v e a h i g h d e g r e e o f i n te g r i ty, is th a t
correct?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

Page 24 of 183

I n te g r it y, k n o w l e d g e ,

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
e x p e r t is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d a tr u s t o f t h e h e a d
o f s ta t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e tr u s t o f th e h e a d o f s t a t e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

B e c a u s e t h a t is w h y

w h e n y o u c o m e t h e r e C h a ir t h a t l e t te r f r o m y o u r Pr e s id e n t y o u t a k e i t t o
t h e h e a d o f s t a te . Yo u m e e t th e h e a d o f s t a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a f a c e t o fa c e .
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d y o u h a n d i t o v e r t o
t h e h e a d o f s t a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

W h o o p e n s i t, r e a d i t

a n d th e n y o u s i t d o w n w it h th e h e a d o f s t a te w h e t h e r it i s a K in g , t h e
M a je s ty,

the

Pr e s i d e n t , y o u

sit

down

and

then

you

d is c u s s

a

r e l a ti o n s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

W i ll a s k y o u t h a n k y o u

v e r y m u c h p le a s e c o n v e y my r e g a r d s t o P r e s i d e n t R a m a p h o s a .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

I a m g la d t h a t t h e y

s e n t y o u h e r e . W h a t i s y o u r t a s k ? T h e n y o u s ta r t t o e x p l a i n y o u r t a s k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

And they say well we

a r e v e r y h a p p y fo r t h i s [i n d i s t i n c t ] r e la t io n s h i p w e w is h y o u w e ll . A n d

Page 25 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t h e n fr o m ti m e t o t i m e y o u m e e t t h a t h e a d o f s ta t e o f c o u r s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

If t h e r e a r e s e n s i t iv e

is s u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I LA :

B e c a u s e y o u a lr e a d y

p r e s e n t e d y o u g o in g t o m e e t t h a t h e a d o f s t a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s . T h a n k y o u .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

Just on that

point Ambassador maybe could you please – may I refer you to Exhibit
F F 1 2 d o n o t c l o s e t h e o n e t h a t y o u l o o k in g a t b u t i t is j u s t a s m a l l
d o c u m e n t n e x t t o y o u F F 1 2 a ls o i n a p r e s e n ta t io n fi le .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : F F1 2 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s t h a t o n e . T h e o n e o n y o u r le f t
h a n d s i d e . C o u l d y o u ju s t t u r n i t o v e r ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k ju s t r a is e y o u r – t h e o n e in y o u r h a n d a n d

show it to him.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A h t h i s o n e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u F F1 2 .

Now

t h a t y o u m e n t io n e d t o th e C h a ir p e r s o n th e l e tt e r s t h a t a p e r s o n w o u ld
r e c e i v e w h ic h t h e p e r s o n m u s t ta k e to th e h e a d o f s ta t e in t h e c o u n t r y
w h e r e o n e is d e p l o y e d . T h is F F 1 2 M r C h a ir m a n th e s e a r e d o c u m e n ts
t h a t h a v e b e e n r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l D o c to r L u b i s i e fr o m
t h e O ff ic e o f th e P r e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 26 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d y o u – c o u l d I ju s t a s k y o u t o
turn to page 3 of that document.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h is f o r i n s t a n c e i s a P r e s i d e n t ’s

m i n u t e th a t w o u l d r e l a te t o A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B e c a u s e t h is i s t h e o n e t h a t y o u h a d

requested.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : R i g h t .
10

ADV

THANDI

NORMAN

SC:

Ye s .

C o u ld

you

tu r n

to

page

. . .( i n te r v e n e s )
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

S h e r e c e iv e s i t , l o o k s

t h r o u g h i t w h e n it c o m e s in t o T h e N e t h e r la n d s a n d t h e n h a v e a c h a t
o v e r a c u p o f c o ff e e a r r a n g e d b y Pr o t o c o l . I t i s j u s t a s m a l l c e r e m o n y
because some – some people make very elaborate ceremonies. Going
t h e r e b y h o u s e c a r d , q u e e n ’s c a r d . I d o n o t k n o w h o w I m u s t g o t h e r e
but something.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
20

I t is a v e r y e l a b o r a te

t h i n g . Yo u k n o w y o u g o i n g t o t h e q u e e n ’s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : H o u s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Yo u k n o w.

Th o s e w h o

g o t h e m a j e s ty ’s b u t s o m e o f u s w e a r e n o t g o i n g t h e r e .

I t is ju s t a

Page 27 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
s m a ll th i n g b u t t h e m a j e s t y ’s o n e .

Sometimes they make it very

elaborate, very pomp and then you have that discussion with the
m a je s ty in w h ic h t h e m a j e s ty w e l c o m e s y o u a n d a s k y o u t o – to th a n k
H e a d s o f S t a te b u t th e s a m e t i m e i t m i g h t b e a l e t t e r r e c a lli n g th e o n e
who was there before you.

S o t h a t i t i s n o t y o u a n d s o m e b o d y e ls e .

So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

S o th is is th e l e t te r

C h a ir …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

That

th e

Head

of

M is s i o n d e s i g n a t e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

W ill c a ll .

At that point

h e is n o lo n g e r d e s ig n a te …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

A f t e r th e M a j e s ty s a y s

y e s th e d e s i g n a te g o e s t h e n h e b e c o m e s t h e A m b a s s a d o r e x tr a o r d i n a r y
( in d is ti n c t) .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . M a y
I a ls o a t t h i s s ta g e th is e x h i b i t – th is b e a d m i t te d a s E X H I B I T F F 1 2
w h ic h i s t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n fr o m th e P r e s i d e n c y. T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: As EXHIBIT F F12 Mr Chairman.

Page 28 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u . T h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e g o to w h a t p a g e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I w a s j u s t a s k in g th a t th is b e a d m i t t e d a s
e x h i b i t M r C h a ir m a n – F F1 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. We …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: We had not done that.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: We had not – yes – we had not done that
10

yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s m a ’a m .

T h e f il e c o n t a i n in g a l e t te r fr o m

D r C a s s i u s L u b is i

D ir e c to r - G e n e r a l

and

Secretary

to

the

Cabinet

a d d r e s s e d to M r P e te r P e d la r w il l b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T F F 1 2 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : As th e C h a ir p l e a s e s . T h a n k y o u . Th a n k
y o u A m b a s s a d o r, c a n y o u g o b a c k n o w t o E X H I B I T F F 11 w h ic h h a s y o u r
a ffi d a v i t .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s m a ’ a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e h a v e c o v e r e d p a r a g r a p h s 1 u p to f iv e
w i t h t h e p r o c e s s t h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y t e s ti f ie d t o . C o u l d y o u th e n t e l l
20

t h e C h a ir p e r s o n - y o u w e r e a s k e d b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n is t h a t c o r r e c t t o
a n s w e r c e r t a in q u e s ti o n s .

O n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d

was …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. B e fo r e th a t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s a w t h a t A m b a s s a d o r y o u t o o k a n a ff ir m a ti o n a n d

Page 29 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
n o t a n o a t h – n o t a n o a t h b u t I s e e t h a t t h i s is i n o a t h fo r m . Is t h a t fi n e
w i t h y o u - y o u r s t a te m e n t / a ffi d a v i t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Ye s .

Ye s i t is o a th

form.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is fi n e . Is i t fi n e ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

W e ll C h a ir I w a s a s k e d

is i t o a t h o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ff ir m a t i o n .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A ff ir m a t i o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I t o o k o a t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Then she says if I am

n o t a p r a c t ic in g C h r is t ia n o r r e li g io u s t h e n a ffir m a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I t h o u g h t it is t h e s a m e
thing.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : B u t C h a ir i f i t is n o t t h e
20

s a m e t h i n g I w i ll s t a y w i t h t h e o a t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u h a v e n o p r o b l e m ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m
with the oath.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

N o th a t is f in e . T h a t is fi n e .

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Page 30 of 183

I just thought maybe I

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
h a v e a l e e w a y t o m o v e e i th e r w a y b u t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o t h a t is fi n e . I j u s t w a n t …
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I

have

to

be

very

c o n s i s te n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I w a s j u s t w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a m i s ta k e .
S o – o k a y n o t h a t is – th a t is in o r d e r t h e n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Then you were asked just to
10

g iv e a s u m m a r y o f w h a t is th e p r o c e s s t h a t D I R C O w o u l d e n g a g e i n
w h e n t h e r e is a r e q u e s t f r o m a f o r e i g n c o u n tr y fo r l a n d i n g i n S o u th
A fr ic a a n d t h e n y o u d e a l w i th t h a t p r o c e s s i n p a r a g r a p h 5 . C o u l d y o u
ju s t b r ie f ly te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t th a t p r o c e s s is ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

C h a ir p e r s o n

once

D IR C O t h r o u g h t h e b i la t e r a l d e s k r e c e iv e s a n o te v e r b a le f r o m t h e
r e s id e n t m is s i o n fo r e ig n i n t h e c o u n tr y. T h e b il a t e r a l d e s k n o t if i e s t h e
p r o t o c o l o f th e r e c e i p t o f t h a t n o t e a n d th e n i n t h e n o t e w e e x p e c t t h e m
t o i n d ic a t e th e p u r p o s e o f t h e r e q u e s t, t h e ti m i n g o f t h e r e q u e s t a n d t h e
places …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s th e p u r p o s e o f t h e v i s i t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : O f t h e v i s i t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: And – and the time …
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t i m e w h e n t h e v is i t i s p r o p o s e d to h a p p e n ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h a t is r i g h t.

Page 31 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e n a t u r e - is i t a
S t a te O ff ic i a l , i s i t w o r k in g o r i t is p r iv a t e . S o o n c e th a t p a r t h a s b e e n
a g r e e d u p o n w e h a v e t o f i n d if t h e H e a d o f S t a te – o u r H e a d o f S t a t e i s
okay

w i th

th e

r e q u e s t e s p e c i a lly

the

timing

because

there

are

( in d is ti n c t) is s u e s a n d o n c e w e a r e c e r t a i n t h a t i n d e e d t h e P r e s i d e n t is
o k a y w i th t h is t y p e o f v is i t a n d i s a ffir m e d t h e n t h e p r e p a r a ti o n s s ta r t
a n d p a r t o f t h a t p r e p a r a ti o n s m a y e n t a il c o n v e n i n g in t e r d e p a r t m e n ta l
m e e ti n g s t o s a y h e r e i s th e r e q u e s t f r o m c o u n tr y A f o r t h is k i n d o f v is i t
10

a n d o u r P r e s i d e n t h a s c o n s e n t e d t o t h is v i s i t.
S o w e t h e n d e v e lo p c o n t e n t .

W h a t s h o u l d b e a c h ie v e d ?

W e r e th e r e a n y a g r e e m e n ts t o b e s i g n e d ? W h a t s h o u l d b e t h e o u tc o m e
o f th e v is i t a n d t h e n t h e p r o t o c o l l o o k s in t o th e f a c il it a ti o n o f th e v is i t .
T h e p l a c e o f th e v i s i t ?

W h e r e is g o i n g t o b e t h e a r r iv a l o f t h e v is i t?

What

it

m o v e m e n ts

w i ll

e n t a il ?

The

venues,

the

h o te l ,

the

tr a n s p o r t a ti o n .
T h i s i s t h e p r o t o c o l t o a r r a n g e tr a n s p o r t a t i o n .
p e o p l e w il l b e c o m in g t h e r e ?

How many

So we – we then – we then prepare a

s u b m is s io n t o t h e M i n is t e r a n d t o t h e P r e s i d e n t t o s a y w e t h i n k t h e b e s t
20

w a y o f m a k in g s u r e t h a t th is is a s u c c e s s w e n e e d t o a d d r e s s th e
f o ll o w i n g is s u e s . E c o n o m ic d i p l o m a c y, l e t u s ta lk a b o u t m a r k e t a c c e s s .
W e t a lk a b o u t th is - te c h n o l o g y, s e c u r i ty, i s s u e s o f A f r i c a .
S o w e – w e g o t h r o u g h a l l t h e s e i s s u e s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e
v is it is – b e c a u s e i t is – i t i s c o s tl y. I t i s c o s tl y. S o y o u m a k e s u r e t h a t
it i s m o n e y w e l l s p e n t b u t a ls o b e c a u s e y o u a r e b u il d in g a r e l a t i o n s h i p .

Page 32 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
Yo u w a n t t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e c e r e m o n i a l is s u e s b y p r o t o c o l is u p to
m a r k . To l e a v e a la s ti n g i m p r e s s io n t o o u r g u e s t . T h a t y o u a r e r e a d y
t o s tr e n g th e n r e l a t i o n s – t o e x p a n d t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p .
S o p r o t o c o l w e g o i n t o t h o s e c e r e m o n ia l i s s u e s li k e – i s i t
g o i n g to b e a d i n n e r, lu n c h , i t is g o i n g t o b e a b r e a k fa s t. W i ll b e a v i s i t
m a y b e to a m u s e u m o r to t h e C r a d l e o f M a n k i n d o r a p r o je c t .
S o m e t h i n g th a t i s l o n g la s t i n g f o r t h e H e a d s o f S t a te a n d t h e n t h e
s e c o n d p a r t p r o t o c o l w e t h e n a l s o d e a l w it h t h e m a y b e in a s e p a r a t e
n o t e v e r b a l e w h e n w e k n o w th e a r r iv a l , t h e n u m b e r o f g u e s t s i n t h e
10

p l a n e a n d t h e d a t e o f a r r iv a l .
T h e n t h e p r o t o c o ls a n d th e d e fe n c e a n d ( in d i s t i n c t) s e r v i c e s
then is arrival. Are you going to have a guard of honour at the airport
o r n o t . F o r i n s t a n c e if it is a – a p r i v a t e v is it y o u d o n o t h a v e to h a v e
t h a t b u t t h e n a n d w h e r e a r e y o u g o i n g t o m o u n t t h e – t h e c e r e m o n ia l
w e lc o m e b y o u r m i li t a r y p e r s o n n e l .

W h e r e w i ll b e t h e 2 1 g u n s to b e

fir e d , t a k i n g s a lu t e o r n o t.
S o t h a t is t h e p r o t o c o l .

I t i s v e r y – v e r y ( i n d is t in c t ) a n d

d e l e g a t e i s s u e b e c a u s e i f s o m e t h in g s li p s t h e r e th e w h o l e c o n t e n t i s
gone.
20

S o – s o c e r e m o n ia l p a r t i s w h a t m a r k e t s t h e c o u n tr y.

fir s t i m p r e s s io n , la s t i n g i m p r e s s i o n .

That is

O f c o u r s e c o n te n t is a ls o v e r y

i m p o r t a n t b u t y o u c a n n o t u n d e r e s ti m a t e t h e i m p a c t o f p r o p e r ly a r r a n g e d
ceremonials.

S o t h a t is w h e r e t h e p r o t o c o l is to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h a t

p a r t – s o b o t h p r o t o c o l , c o n t e n t ( i n d is ti n c t ) .
N o w i f fo r in s ta n c e i t is g o i n g t o b e a t a m il i ta r y b a s e o r a t
t h e a ir p o r t – s o m e H e a d s o f S t a te a r r iv e a t O R T b e c a u s e o f t h e s i z e o f

Page 33 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t h e a ir c r a f t th e 7 4 7 . M o s t ly t h e y a r r iv e th e r e . S o m e a t W a te r k l o o f A ir
B a s e e tc e te r a . T h e r e is a s d i ffe r e n t p r o c e s s n o w w h ic h n e e d s n o w th e
s e c u r i ty a n d t h e p r o t o c o l t o w o r k o n a n d o n c e a ll o f u s h a v e g o n e
t h r o u g h o u r i n te r n a l p r o c e s s e s .
E x a m p l e t h e – t h e d e f e n c e w i ll a s s e s s t h e a v a i l a b il it y o f t h e
f a c i li ty. Th e c o n d i ti o n o f t h e f a c i li ty a n d w o r k e v e r y th in g i n t e r n a lly a n d
t h e n t h e y s a y t o D I R C O n o w e d o n o t t h i n k o u r f a c i li ty i s a v a il a b l e o r i t
is a v a il a b l e a n d t h e n o u r r o l e is to n o t i fy th e r e q u e s ti n g m is s io n th a t
y e s le t u s g o a h e a d o r p l e a s e n o t a t t h is o n e b u t t h a t is t h e – t h a t is
10

t h e d e f e n c e t o d e c i d e b e c a u s e t h e y g o in g t o ( i n d is t in c t) h a v e a ir p o r t.
T h e d e f e n c e w il l t h e n a g r e e .

So once the defence agrees

t h e y a p p ly th e i r m i n d g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e i n te r n a l p r o c e s s e s .

Th e n w e

tr i g g e r t h e p r e p a r a ti o n – t h e a r r iv a l c e r e m o n y a ll – a l l t h o s e k i n d s o f
t h i n g s h a p p e n . S o t h a t is w h a t n o r m a ll y h a p p e n s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
a ir c r a f t is l ik e th o s e b i g 7 4 7 s .

B u t i f C h a ir c h o i c e o f

We then say no land at ORT because

o u r r u n w a y d o e s n o t h a n d l e th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t O R Ta m b o A ir p o r t?
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : O R Ta m b o y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Th e n

we

trigger

a r r a n g e m e n ts t h e r e . I t i s a c iv il i a n a i r p o r t . S o w e m a k e a r r a n g e m e n t s
t h e r e . If i t is C a p e To w n , C a p e To w n A ir p o r t . It i s e a s i e r f o r u s w h e n i t
is W a t e r k lo o f b e c a u s e i t is e x c l u s iv e …

Page 34 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : B u t n o t m a n y l a n d t h e r e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : W i t h b i g a ir c r a f t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

S o i t is a d e c is io n t h a t

w e n o r m a ll y t a k e t o g e th e r. I f i t is a t O R Ta m b o th e n A C S A k ic k s i n . S o
w e g o w i th A C S A , H o m e A ff a i r s a n d r e l e v a n t …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Department.

W h a t is

g o i n g t o h a p p e n t h e r e ? I t d i ff e r s . I f it is C a p e To w n i t is g o i n g t o b e
in t e r n a t io n a l p a r t o r d o m e s t ic p a r t.

I t w o u ld b e l ik e fo r i n c id e n t

P r e s i d e n t O b a m a d i d g o t o C a p e To w n . S o w e t h e n m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts
t h e r e . I f it is a s u m m i t i t i s t h e n u m b e r o f H e a d s o f S t a t e . Th e p r o t o c o l
s a y o k a y s o m a n y o f t h e m l a n d a t O R Ta m b o , s o m a n y Wa t e r k l o o f ,
m a y b e s o m a n y a t L a n s e r ia .
T h e y w i ll d i s t r i b u t e t h e m a n d c r e a t e a m e c h a n is m t o m a k e
s u r e th a t t h e – w h e r e v e r t h e y l a n d t h e y a r e a ll w e lc o m e t o S o u t h A f r i c a .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
w i t h o u t c o m p r o m is in g s e c u r i t y.

S o t h a t is t h e i n s h o r t

T h e r e is a l o t o f s e c u r i ty is s u e s th a t

C h a ir y o u m a y s a v e m e fr o m n o t s a y in g t h e m . U n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t w e
s t il l h a v e t o p r o t e c t t h e R e p u b l ic .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u a n d – a n d t h e n c o m i n g t o th e

is s u e th a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h w h ic h is t h e W a t e r k lo o f la n d i n g o f J e t
A ir w a y s . W h e n d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e o f t h a t l a n d in g fo r t h e v e r y fi r s t
ti m e ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : C h a i r I b e c a m e a w a r e o f
t h a t th r o u g h t h e n e w s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h . A r e y o u – a r e y o u a s k i n g t h e a c tu a l l a n d i n g o r

t h e p r o p o s e d v i s i t p r i o r to t h e l a n d i n g ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . N o .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n f a c t I th in k h e …
CHAIRPERSON: The request …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The request.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

W h e n d id y o u f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e b e c o m e

a w a r e o f t h e r e q u e s t t h a t J e t A ir w a y s w a n t e d t o l a n d a t W a te r k l o o f?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I t w a s a f t e r th e a r r i v a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r t h e a r r iv a l o f …
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A f t e r …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e a ir c r a f t?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : J a . W h e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
s o c ia l m e d i a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 36 of 183

W h e n th e n e w s a n d

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : W e r e b u s y t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

W e l o o k e d th r o u g h t h is

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B e f o r e th a t y o u d i d n o t k n o w a n y t h i n g ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

No, I was not in the

p ic t u r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ; a n d n o r m a l ly y o u w o u l d n o t g e t i n v o l v e d ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
10

N o r m a l ly I w o u l d g e t

in v o lv e d a f te r a n i n te r d e p a r t m e n t a l m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I n o r m a l ly g e t in v o lv e d

if it is H e a d s o f S t a t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

And

I

have

been

a d v is e d t h a t t h e n o t e v e r b a le c le a r ly i n d ic a t e s i t i s a H e a d o f S t a te
coming …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
20

And then in that case I

w i ll t h e n c o n f ir m w i t h th e C h i e f o f S ta t e P r o t o c o l a n d t h e D D G o f th a t
area.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I f i t is fr o m A m e r ic a i t is
t h e D D G o f A m e r ic a . E u r o p e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 37 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Because that DDG we

t h e n c o n v e n e a n i n t e r d e p a r t m e n t a l m e e t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Pr e p a r e p r e p a r a ti o n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

A n d t h e y w i ll c o m e t o

r e p o r t t o m e . T h e n I w i ll m a k e t h e M i n i s te r s a w a r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
10

B u t a ls o w e h a v e t h e

f o r u m c a l le d th e D G Fo r u m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Where I convene the

D D G s a n d w e c o ll e c ti v e ly d is c u s s ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h a t is th e D D G s o f y o u r d e p a r t m e n t?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : O f m y d e p a r t m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : To s a y i t is l ik e t h i s a n d
then of course we have interdepartmental …
CHAIRPERSON: Meetings.
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Pr o c e s s e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Where

th e y

send

d e p a r t m e n t – a n o ffic i a l a t th e a p p r o p r ia t e l e v e l w h e r e th e is s u e s c a n
b e d is c u s s e d a n d s o m e ti m e s t h e Pr e s i d e n t m i g h t s a y n o l o o k I w a n t a
m i n is t e r ia l c o m m i t t e e o n th is is s u e .

S o a fe w M i n is t e r s w il l b e p u t

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t o g e th e r t o – t o d o ( i n d is t in c t ) b u t in n o r ma l c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h e n o t e
v e r b a l e c o m e s t h e n I r e q u e s t t h e D D G r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h a t r e g io n t o
s t a r t th e p r e p a r a ti o n s , t h e c o n t e n t, t o c a ll th e o th e r c o ll e a g u e s , D T I ,
H o m e A ff a ir s .
D e f e n c e a lw a y s – I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v i c e s a r e a lw a y s p a r t o f t h e
p r o c e s s b e c a u s e y o u n e e d t o – t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e d e f e n c e fa m i ly is
– is a w a r e o f w h a t is h a p p e n i n g a n d t h e n t h e y t h e n m a k e a s u b m i s s io n .
W e d i s c u s s t h e m . T h e n I a d v i s e t h e M i n i s t e r t o s a y M i n i s t e r I th i n k w e
a r e r e a d y. T h i s i s w h a t w e h a v e t o – t o r e a li s e . S o t h a t is i n t e r m s o f
10

t h e c o n te n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Then in terms of the

p r e p a r a ti o n c e r e m o n ia l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e b e fo r e y o u g e t t o t h e p r e p a r a ti o n s - y o u
s p o k e e a r l ie r o r y o u s a i d e a r li e r o n t h e r e c o u l d b e t w o n o t e v e r b a l e .
O n e ju s t m a k i n g t h e r e q u e s t a n d a n o t h e r o n e l a t e r o n – l a t e r o n c o m i n g
w i t h d e t a il s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o r m a ll y a t w h a t o r w h o a t D I R C O w o u l d r e c e iv e t h e
20

fir s t n o te v e r b a l e ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
o r d i n a r i ly g o e s to t h e b i l a t e r a l d e s k .

T h e f ir s t n o t e v e r b a le

L e t m e s a y i t is J a p a n .

The

J a p a n d e s k w i ll r e c e iv e t h a t n o t e v e r b a le …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e n m a k e p r o t o c o l

Page 39 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
aware.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e p r o t o c o l o ffi c e r ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Pr o t o c o l O ff ic e r o f – o f

D IR C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o f D I R C O y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

B e in g a w a r e t h a t t h e r e

is t h is r e q u e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
10

Then

we

go

fo r

c o n s u l t a ti o n f ir s t . W e g o – i t g o e s i n to a f a c i li t a ti o n p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

To m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e

M i n is t e r a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t a r e o k a y. B e f o r e y o u g o t o a n y p r e p a r a t i o n s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Yo u w a n t t o m a k e s u r e

t h a t th e p r i n c i p a ls …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
20

Are

on

–

are

on

agreement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

When

th e

p r in c i p a ls

h a v e a g r e e d a n d th e n y o u tr i g g e r c e r e m o n i a l i s s u e s a n d t h e n y o u
tr i g g e r t h e c o n t e n t d e v e lo p m e n t .

N o w th e s e c o n d n o t e v e r b a l m a y b e

a b o u t t h e l a n d in g r i g h ts . I t m a y b e c o n t a i n i n g t h e – th e w h e r e to la n d

Page 40 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t h e ty p e o f a ir c r a f t a n d r e q u e s ti n g th e fl ig h t r o u t e a ll t h o s e is s u e s .
N o r m a l ly I s a w t h a t t h in g b e e n d e a l t b y t h e d e f e n c e a tt a c h é
o f th e m is s io n . L e t m e s a y a g a i n i t is J a p a n . T h e m i li t a r y a t t a c h é w il l
t h e n tr i g g e r th a t b e c a u s e n o w t h a t i s w h e r e s e c u r i ty c o m e s i n . Th a t is
t h e p r o t e c t io n o f t h e p r in c i p a l o r o f t h e g u e s ts . T h e m o d e o f th e r o u t e
c o m e in . Yo u d o n o t e x p o s e t h e r o u t e f r o m To k y o t o J o h a n n e s b u r g .
S o v e r y f e w p e o p l e a r e th e n a w a r e o f t h e r o u t e o f t h e f li g h t ,
t h e t i m e o f th e la n d i n g a n d t h e p r e p a r a t io n s a n d t h e n th e y w il l d e a l
w i t h t h e – t h e d e f e n c e – a p p r o p r i a t e d e f e n c e p e r s o n a n d th e n m a y b e a
10

p e r s o n fr o m p r o to c o l t o b e a w a r e b u t t h is i s – i t is n o t a h u g e n u m b e r
of people made aware.

I t i s a v e r y r is k y t h i n g b e c a u s e o f s e c u r i t y

s e n s i t iv it i e s .
A ls o b e c a u s e th e r e m a y b e t h e – y o u k n o w – a p p l ic a ti o n o f
t h e n u m b e r o f a r m s b r o u g h t b y th e p r o t e c ti n g p a r t y o f t h e – o f th e
g u e s t . T h e ty p e o f a r ms , s e r ia l n u m b e r s . S o a ll t h o s e t h i n g s a r e d o n e
v e r y q u i e tl y a n d s e n s it iv e l y. S o th a t m i g h t tr i g g e r a d i ffe r e n t o n e fr o m
t h e g l o b a l n o t e v e r b a le a s k i n g f o r a – fo r a v is i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u – y o u w o u l d – if it is a v is i t i n v o l v i n g a H e a d
o f S t a t e y o u w o u l d b e c o m e a w a r e o f t h e f ir s t n o t e v e r b a l e …
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Q u i t e s o o n a f t e r i t h a s a r r iv e d a t D I R C O o r n o t?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w i ll b e q u i t e s o o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I w i ll – I w il l g e t a l m o s t
fr o m t h e D D G t o s a y D G w e a r e i n r e c e i p t o f t h i s …

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

B e c a u s e m y r u l e i s to

( in d is ti n c t) t h e M i n i s t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e n ( i n d is ti n c t) t h e
President …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

A n d – s o ( in d is ti n c t) to

s t a r t . S o I w i ll b e a w a r e o f i t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

O k a y a n d a s th e p r e p a r a t i o n s m o v e

f o r w a r d y o u w o u l d b e a w a r e o f w h a t i s g o i n g o n a n d y o u w i ll …
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I w il l b e k e p t …
CHAIRPERSON: Be kept informed?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I w il l b e k e p t i n fo r m e d

b y th e r e l e v a n t … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P e o p le ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . S o
20

t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e a r r i v a l o f a H e a d o f S ta t e . W h a t h a p p e n s w h e n t h e r e
a r e M i n i s te r s v i s i ti n g t h e c o u n tr y ? D o y o u g e t a s in f o r m e d a s y o u a r e
w h e n i t i s t h e H e a d o f S t a t e v is it i n g ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

N o r m a l ly a t M i n is t e r s

le v e l t h e r e a r e M i n i s te r s – M in is t e r s a ls o d i ff e r. In s te a d o f d e fe n c e o f
in t e l li g e n c e o f D I R C O n o r m a lly a s a d i ffe r e n t c a te g o r y b e c a u s e o f t h e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
n a t u r e o f t h e ir w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e y g e t s o r t o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e s p e c i a l tr e a t m e n t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
n e v e r s a id th a t .

I a m n o t s a y in g th a t . I

I said that it is some consideration and some

c o n s i d e r a ti o n g i v e n b e c a u s e o f t h e n a tu r e o f t h e ir w o r k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
10

A n d t h a t c o n s i d e r a ti o n

m e a n s t h a t c e r t a i n t h i n g s a r e d o n e b u t m a y b e i f th e M i n i s t e r o f H o m e
A ff a ir s c o m e s M in is t e r o f To u r i s m c o m e s i t is a d i ff e r e n t c o n s i d e r a ti o n
b u t s t il l i f a M in is t e r c o m e s w e s ti ll g e t a n o t e v e r b a le .

T h a t n o te

v e r b a l e m a y w e r e q u e s t – l e t m e s a y th e M in is te r a r r iv e s a t O R T.
T h e n p r o t o c o l w il l t h e n r e c e iv e t h e M i n i s t e r c o n c e r n e d fr o m
t h e f li g h t t h r o u g h t h e p r o t o c o l l o u n g e o f D I R C O . S o – s o y o u s t il l n e e d
a n o te v e r b a l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Fo r – fo r t h a t p a r tic u la r
M i n is t e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A s l o w a s a n Ex e c u ti v e
y o u n e e d a n o t e v e r b a le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
s t a ti o n i n …

Page 43 of 183

W h a te v e r p o s i ti o n o r

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I n t h e E x e c u t iv e y o u

s t il l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Yo u s til l n e e d a n o te

verbale.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d t h e n I m u s t j u s t a s k t h i s q u e s t io n y o u s p o k e

a b o u t t w o n o t e v e r b a l e . N o w is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t th e r e m u s t a lw a y s b e
two?

Is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t th e r e m u s t a t le a s t b e o n e b u t s o m e ti m e s

t h e r e m a y b e tw o ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : C h a ir i t d i ffe r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Let me say you receive

H i la r y C li n t o n . S h e t r a v e ls w i t h a s p e c ia l a ir c r a f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

She

is

not

coming

c o m m e r c ia l .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : S o – a n d a g a i n b e c a u s e
o f p r o f ili n g b e c a u s e a l l g u e s ts a r e p r o fi le d b y th e s t a t e s e c u r i t y. T h e y
are graded.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Page 44 of 183

H i g h r is k , lo w r is k ,

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
m e d i u m r is k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

O r i t is J e r r y o k a y l e t

h i m c o m e i n . I t d i ff e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – b u t J e r r y m a y b e H is Ex c e ll e n c y ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Well

but

Ex c e ll e n c y

r e a l ly w i th n o t m u c h r is k b e c a u s e S o u t h A f r ic a n s li k e t h a t p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e r e is n o r is k .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : B u t c e r ta i n p e o p l e h a v e
r is k .

Yo u h a v e s e e n i f A m e r ic a n H e a d s o f S t a t e a r r i v e y o u c o u ld s e e

t h e l e v e l o f p r e p a r a t io n .

It i s a m o n g t h e t o p s e c u r i t y.

Yo u c a n s e e

e v e n th e a m o u n t o f A m e r ic a n I n te ll ig e n c e a m o u n t o f A m e r ic a S p e c ia l
F o r c e s a r r iv i n g . T h e – t h e ty p e o f c a r s , h e l ic o p t e r s , a r m o u r. Yo u c o u l d
s e e b e c a u s e i t is h i g h r i s k b e c a u s e th e y a r e t a r g e ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

They are targets but of

c o u r s e i f th e P r e s i d e n t o f a n e ig h b o u r i n g c o u n tr y c o m e s y o u d o n o t s e e
20

t h a t h u g e – t h e r e is a le v e l .

So we are guided by the grading by

I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v i c e s o n th e H e a d o f S t a te a n d a c c o r d i n g ly w e c a li b r a te
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
a r r a n g e m e n ts .

Page 45 of 183

The

s e c u r i ty

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e r u le s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

The – what do we do?

T h e h o te l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I t – i t tr i g g e r s s o m a n y

o th e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h i n g s th a t h a p p e n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I f i t is a M i n i s te r –

M i n is t e r fr o m Ir a n f o r e x a m p l e o r M in is t e r o f t h e s e c o u n tr i e s th a t h a v e
g l o b a l a t t e n t io n y o u a l s o tr ig g e r a r r a n g e m e n ts b u t m a y b e a M i n is t e r
fr o m L e s o t h o w e m a y n o t tr ig g e r s u c h a h u g e a r r a n g e m e n t b u t t h e r e
w i ll b e s e c u r i ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : D e t a i ls …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : D o n e b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e y a ll d i ff e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
c o m e fr o m …

Page 46 of 183

D e p e n d i n g w h e r e th e y

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e p r o to c o l a ls o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

R e c a li b r a t e s

i ts

a r r a n g e m e n ts a c c o r d i n g ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : S o b u t f o r u s w e a r e l e d
b y In t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : W h a t i s t h e g r a d i n g ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – b u t t o g o b a c k to m y q u e s t io n t h e r e a r e t i m e s

w h e n o n e n o te v e r b a l e is s u ff ic ie n t .

There are times when two note

v e r b a l e a r e r e q u ir e d o r i s t h e s e c o n d o n e a l w a y s o p t io n a l ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I think for Heads of

S t a te n o r m a lly I th i n k i f I r e c a ll w e l l t h e r e w i ll b e t w o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A g r e e in g th e n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A n d t h e n th e d e t a i ls …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

B e c a u s e w h e t h e r i t is

p r i v a t e w h e t h e r i t is o ff ic i a l , c e r e m o n i a l , s t a t e t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e H e a d

Page 47 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
o f S t a t e o f a n y c o u n tr y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : I s i m p o r t a n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Yo u d o n o t w a n t to

answer back something you are not ready for …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : B e c a u s e o n c e t h e y l a n d
t h e y a r e y o u r g u e s t . S o t h e ir l iv e s a r e i n y o u r h a n d s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

So – and hence the

p r o t e c t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : A r o u n d t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d I g u e s s t h a t w h e t h e r it i s o n e n o te v e r b a le
it m i g h t – c a n c o n t a in a l l t h e d e ta il s t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d fr o m
a s e c o n d n o t e v e r b a le in a d i ff e r e n t c a s e ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Well in some cases but

a s I s a i d y o u w il l ( c o u g h in g ) C h a i r t h a t - t h a t d i ff e r e n t fu n c t io n s a r e
20

tr i g g e r e d f o r p r e p a r a t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Fo r in s ta n c e i n th e fir s t
n o t e v e r b a l e t h e y m a y n o t a s k f o r l a n d i n g r ig h ts w h e n t h e y d o n o t k n o w
whether we accept …
CHAIRPERSON: The request?

Page 48 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : T h e r e q u e s t o r n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

For

in s t a n c e

if

the

P r e s i d e n t fl ie s t o th e U N li k e h e d o e s e v e r y S e p t e m b e r t h e n o t e v e r b a l e
a r e tr i g g e r e d b y d e f e n c e – d e f e n c e a t ta c h é w i t h t h e A m e r ic a n S t a t e
D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e n w e a r e n o ti f ie d t h a t t h e r e is g o in g t o b e - b e c a u s e
o f s e c u r i ty. S o I s u g g e s t th a t m a y b e t h e s e c o n d o n e i s t r i g g e r e d b y y e s
we agree.

Th e n w o r k o n t h e f i n e r d e t a ils w h i c h a r e n o t f o r p u b lic

c o n s u m p ti o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n ; a n d t h e n –
then

you

commented

then

on

the

report

that

M s S in d a n e

and

D r S w e m m e r a n d – a n d o t h e r s h a d p r e p a r e d a n d y o u d e a l w i th y o u r
c o m m e n t s o n t h e r e p o r t fr o m p a g e 4 o n w a r d s a n d th e n y o u c o m m e n t
s p e c i f ic a l ly o n w h a t is t e r m e d u n d e r t h e p o s t a r r iv a l s ta g e o r p h a s e a n d
y o u d e a l w i t h w h e n y o u f ir s t g o t t o k n o w a b o u t t h e l a n d in g a n d t h e
s t e p s th a t y o u t o o k . C o u l d y o u ta k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s p le a s e ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Ye s .

On – as I said I

o n ly h e a r d t h is o n p o s t a r r iv a l a n d i n Mr – M s S i n d a n e ’s d o c u m e n t y o u
20

a r e r e f e r r in g to …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A r e y o u lo o k in g a t F F1 ?

M s S in d a n e ’s b u n d l e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : F F1 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : F F1 ?

Page 49 of 183

T h a t is

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t p a g e a r e y o u lo o k i n g a t?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

I th i n k I a m lo o k in g a t

2 .3 . 3 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

That should be I think

2 .2 . 3 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page – page 19. On top it would be page
1 9 . Is th a t r i g h t? N o t .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : L e t m e c o m e th e r e .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h s o r r y. Ye s . It w il l b e p a g e 1 9 2 . 3 .3 .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e b o t to m p a g e i s m a r k e d 1 5 .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : P a g e – p a g e 1 9 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 19 on top. Page 19.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : P a g e 1 9 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

T h is i s th e f ir s t ti m e

n o w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

Because as a DG of

D IR C O I a m a ls o t h e M e m b e r o f N I C O C - N a ti o n a l I n t e ll ig e n c e
C o o r d in a ti n g C o m m i t t e e - p r in c i p a l .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

So that is where we

m e e t to t a k e a b o a r d th e S t a t e s e c u r i ty a n d o t h e r i s s u e s . S o th e r e w a s

Page 50 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a m e e t in g c o n v e n e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

For

the

NICOC

p r i n c i p a ls o n 1 M a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : To c o m e a n d – t h is is a
d a y a f t e r t h e i n c id e n t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
10

To c o m e a n d d i s c u s s

t h is is s u e b e c a u s e i t a t tr a c t e d s o m u c h a t t e n t io n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :
p r i n c i p a ls w e r e w o r r ie d a b o u t i t .

And I am sure the

S o i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t h i s v i s i t a n d

h a v i n g l e a r n t t h a t t h e G C S C lu s t e r – G C I S c a ll e d c o m m u n ic a t o r s
because there was so much media hype.
spokesperson

or

he

is

s ti ll

the

I th e n i n v it e d th e th e n

spokesperson

of

DIRCO

–

C l a y s o n M o n y e l a – a r o u n d 1 o ’ c lo c k to c o m e a n d b r i e f m e b e c a u s e I
w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e w h a t is h a p p e n i n g a n d w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d a n d
t h e n a l s o I c a ll e d H is E x c e ll e n c y A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e to c o m e a n d jo in
20

us at NICOC because so much was said about him in the media space.
S o I , A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d D id i ( i n d is ti n c t) w e n t to t h e
N IC O C p r i n c i p a l – i t w a s e x t e n d e d . E x t e n d e d m e a n s o t h e r p e o p l e w h o
d o n o t n o r m a l ly a tt e n d – a r e a tt e n d i n g . N o r m a lly I d o n o t ta k e a n y b o d y
there

but

on

this

case

it was

extended

e s p e c i a l ly

fr o m

those

d e p a r t m e n t t h a t h a d p e o p l e l ik e i m p lic a t e d l ik e d e f e n c e , p o li c e a l l

Page 51 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
those people were brought to NICOC.
S o w e m e t t h e m a t t h e N IC O C H e a d q u a r t e r s u n t il ti m e
in d i c a t e d i n t h e – u n t il 2 1 : 0 0 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Fr o m 4 o ’ c l o c k u n ti l 2 1 :0 0 ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A : N o n s t o p .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

A n d th e n p a r t o f t h e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s t o i m m e d i a t e ly b r i e f o u r p r i n c ip a ls . I f y o u s e e o n
20(I).
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT T H E W S M AT J I L A :

“Every

G e n e r a l ( i n d is ti n c t) w i t h th e i r M i n i s te r s a n d a d v is e d
a g a in s t a t te n d i n g t h e w e d d i n g ” .
Yo u r e c a ll w e a ll – lik e my s e l f I r e c e iv e d a n in v i t a ti o n . W e a l l r e c e i v e d
in v i ta t io n s . M o s t o f th e D G s a n d i t w a s g o i n g t o b e I th i n k th a t . S o I
h a d t o c a l l t h e M in is t e r N k o a n a - M a s h a b a n e t o s a y M i n i s te r I w a n t t o
s e e y o u to b r i e f y o u a b o u t t h e o u t c o m e o f th e N I C O C M e e ti n g a n d
in d e e d t h e M i n is te r c o n s e n t e d a n d I t h in k 2 1 : 3 0 o r 1 0 : 0 0 p m I w e n t to
m e e t t h e M i n i s te r b u t f o r t h e s a k e o f tr a n s p a r e n c y I a l s o in v i t e d
20

A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d Mr M u n y e l a w h o w e r e w it h m e a t N IC O C t o g o
a n d s e e t h e M i n is te r a t h e r r e s id e n c e t o g iv e h e r a b r ie f in g o f t h e
d is c u s s io n s s o t h a t i n h e r mi n d s h e r e a lly u n d e r s ta n d s t h e is s u e v e r y,
v e r y w e l l n o t o n ly fr o m s o c ia l m e d i a . B u t t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a v e
r e p o r t e d , H o m e A ff a ir s h a v e r e p o r t e d , S t a te S e c u r i ty r e p o r t e d , a l l
r e l e v a n t d e p a r t m e n ts . S o w e m e t th e M in is te r u n t il th e e a r ly h o u r s o f

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t h e 2 n d o f M a y. W h e n w e l e f t h o m e , h e r a n d w e b r i e fe d h e r a n d a c q u a i n t
her

some

of

th e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s

e s p e c i a l ly

Roman

10

that

i m m e d i a t e ly b r i e f t h e ir M i n is t e r s . A n d s o t h a t w a s t h e ti m e t h a t I h e a r d
a b o u t a n d t h e m o r e th e d e ta il s a b o u t t h is , fi r s t ti m e . S e c o n d ti m e , t h e
M i n is t e r s o f t h e J C S c lu s t e r w e r e c a l le d t o a m e e t in g . T h e M in is t e r
w e n t t h e r e a n d I a c c o m p a n i e d h e r t o g o t o t h e c lu s te r m e e t in g w h e r e
t h e N I C O C p r in c i p a l p r e s e n t e d t h e r e p o r t t o th e M i n is te r s f o r t h e
M i n is t e r ’s p r o c e s s i n g a n d M i n i s te r ’s a d v ic e . I t w a s in t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t
t h e M i n i s t e r s d e c id e d t o e s ta b lis h th e D J G c o m m i t t e e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I n v e s ti g a ti o n t e a m ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : To in v e s ti g a te t h e w h o le t h i n g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

S o a f te r th e n a ll t h e s e m e e t in g s w h ic h a r e

in t e r d e p a r t m e n t a l, i n t e r - M i n is te r i a l t h e n y o u d e a l i n p a r a g r a p h C w i t h
y o u r c a l l t o th e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n o f I n d ia .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

N o w C h a ir, w e a r e c o m i n g to t h e

d e t a i ls n o w a n d p a r t o f … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d th e C y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t Ms N o r m a n is ,

h a v e y o u g o n e , h a v e y o u c h a n g e d l e v e r f il e s to a n o t h e r o n e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN:
20

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s t il l a t p a g e 2 0 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

O h , I a m s o r r y. I h a v e g o n e b a c k t o th e

s t a te m e n t o f M r M a tj il a .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV THANDI NORMAN: I beg your pardon.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
ADV THANDI NORMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A lr i g h t . O k a y a r e y o u , i n w h a t p a g e a r e y o u ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN: Page 4.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 4?
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Ye s , th a n k y o u . S o r r y, th a t i s F F 111 . O r is

t h e r e s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u w a n t e d to r e f e r t o i n M s S i n d a n e ’s r e p o r t ,
Ambassador?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : N o , I a m f o l l o w in g y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:
10

O h , y o u a r e fo ll o w i n g m e ? O h , t h a n k y o u .

C o u ld y o u g o b a c k y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h e n , p a g e 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Ye s , w h e r e a r e w e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N :

Ye s . T h e n y o u m e n t i o n e d a n d a ft e r h a v i n g

t h e s e m e e ti n g s w i th y o u r p r in c i p a ls t h e n y o u m a d e a c a l l t o th e H i g h
C o m m i s s i o n o f I n d i a . C o u l d y o u t e l l C h a i r p e r s o n a b o u t th a t c a l l?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : C h a ir, p a r t o f o u r r o le a l l d e p a r t m e n t
w a s t o v e r if y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

T h e r e w a s a n is s u e o f n o t e v e r b a l .

N o w a s a N I C O C n o w I t o o k o v e r. T h e n I c a l l e d , I t e l e p h o n e d t h e H i g h
C o m m i s s i o n e r, e x c e l l e n c y th e H i g h C o m m is s io n e r o f I n d i a to e s t a b l is h
h is w e a r e n o t s u r e w h o w e r e t h e g u e s t s , w h o w e r e t h e p e o p l e i n t h e
a ir c r a f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : W e h e a r d t h e r e w e r e M in is t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA :

Th e r e w e r e o ff ic ia ls , t h e y w e r e t h e

f a m ily.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

B e c a u s e a s I s a i d e a r li e r o n , i f i t

w a s M in is t e r s a n d i s s u e o f p r o t o c o l p r e p a r a ti o n k ic k s i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w o u ld h a v e k i c k e d in m u c h e a r l ie r.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :
10

Ye s . Th e n I c a l le d

th e H ig h

C o m m i s s i o n e r, Mr G u p ta w h o is v e r y d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h e G u p ta . H e is
a n o t h e r G u p ta . L i k e y o u h e a r d M a tj il a h e r e w h o is a n o t h e r M a tj il a . S o
C h a ir, d o n o t s a y th a t M a t ji la ’s . I t is a d i ff e r e n t M a t j il a . S o i t is a
d i ff e r e n t G u p ta . S o i n d e e d , H is E x c e ll e n c y G u p t a t o o k m y c a ll . I t h i n k
y o u m a y h a d b e e n t o S u n C i ty a lr e a d y a t t h a t ti m e . S o I a s k e d
p r e c i s e ly, H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r w e r e t h e r e M i n is t e r s i n t h e f li g h t? H e
s a y s n o t h e y w e r e n o t M i n is te r s . T h e y w e r e S t a te M i n i s te r s . N o w C h a ir,
I w a s A m b a s s a d o r … ( i n d i s t i n c t) to I n d ia .
CHAIRPERSON: So you knew?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

20

S t a t e M i n is t e r s is th e e q u i v a le n t o f

o u r.
CHAIRPERSON: MEC?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : M E C s h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

R ig h t n o w M E C s h a v e a d i ff e r e n t

c a t e g o r y.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : In t e r m s o f v is i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

S o I t h e n e s t a b li s h e d a n d i n f o r m e d

t h e N IC O C th a t t h e r e w a s n o u n i o n M i n is t e r, t h e y c a l l t h e m u n io n
M i n is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N a ti o n a l M i n is te r ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : N a t io n a l M i n is t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : It w a s p r o v in c i a l o r S t a te M i n i s t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

S o t h a t w a s v e r y, v e r y i m p o r ta n t

b e c a u s e t h e n it g o e s to t h e c o n t e n t o f th e n o t e v e r b a l t h a t w a s
s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n s e n t . S o t h a t is t h e f ir s t c a l l I d i d t o t h e b u t
a ls o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y b u t s ti ll i n n o t e v e r b a l w a s t o
h a v e b e e n r e q u ir e d e v e n i f i t w a s S t a t e M i n is t e r s o r is th e r e s o m e th i n g
you are coming to deal with?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :
20

I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r S t a te

M i n is t e r s n e e d s a n o t e v e r b a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b e c a u s e th a t , j a .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : J a , i t is n o t a n a ti o n a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA :

O f c o u r s e t h e y m ig h t b e v e r y, v e r y

i m p o r t a n t b u t t h e y s t ill , w e m i n d o u r s e c u r i ty t o .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : To k n o w th e ir v i s i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

T h e s e c o n d th in g th a t I a s k e d h i m

w a s , w e r e y o u a s k e d b y t h e G u p t a fa m i ly t o f a c il i ta t e . H e s a y s n o I w a s
n e v e r a s k e d to f a c i li t a te . S o t w o i s s u e s I w a n t e d t o g e t fr o m h i m . W e r e
t h e s e u n i o n M in is t e r s , n a t i o n a l M i n is t e r s o r n o t . S e c o n d l y, y o u a s t h e
H i g h C o m m is s i o n e r r e s p o n s i b l e , t h e e y e s o f t h e P r i m e M in is t e r o f I n d i a
w e r e y o u a p p r o a c h e d b y th e G u p t a f a m ily t o h e l p , h e s a y s n o I w a s n o t
10

a p p r o a c h e d . S o I c o n v e y e d t h a t , C h a ir, to t h e N IC O C p r i n c i p a ls to
s a ti s f y a r e s o th a t th e y w e r e n o t . H e w a s n o t a p p r o a c h e d a n d th e n h e
d i d n o t s e t th e n o te v e r b a l. N o , t h e r e w e r e n o u n i o n M i n i s t e r s . T h e
s e c o n d t i m e , i f I c o n ti n u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h e n I s a i d to h i m , c a n y o u c o m e t o
m y o ffic e . I t h i n k i t w a s o n t h e 3 r d o f M a y. C a n y o u p l e a s e w h e r e v e r y o u
a r e , c a n y o u c o m e t o m y o ff ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : F o r i n - d e p t h d i s c u s s io n b e c a u s e t h i s

20

w a s t e le p h o n ic a l ly. S o h e c a m e to m y o ff ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : A n d a t t h a t t i m e c o u ld a p p r e c i a t e t h e
g r a v i t y o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d a n d I t h o u g h t a s a r e s p o n s ib l e p e r s o n
a n d a s a fe ll o w d i p lo m a t b u t a ls o to m a in t a i n r e l a t i o n s b e c a u s e y o u d o
n o t w a n t t h i s t h i n g t o s o u r e v e r y t h i n g . Yo u w a n t t o c o n t in u e t o m a k e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
s u r e t h a t t h e w a r m r e l a ti o n s b e t w e e n … ( i n d is ti n c t ) a n d In d i a c o n ti n u e s
s o t h a t t h i s i n c i d e n t i s n o t a c a u s e o f th e r u p t u r e o f s o m e th i n g t h a t h a s
b e e n b u il t o v e r a p e r i o d o f ti m e e s p e c ia ll y t h e s p e c i a l r e la t io n s
b e t w e e n S o u th A fr ic a a n d I n d i a . C h a ir, i t d o e s n o t n e e d t o d o w i t h
b e c a u s e I w a s H i g h C o m m is s i o n e r to In d i a . I t is a h is t o r i c r e l a ti o n s t h a t
M a h a d i M a g a n d i w a s h e r e . H e i s a f o u n d e r o f I n d i a . Yo u k n o w t h a t
h is t o r ic is s u e s . S o h e c a m e t o m y o ffic e H ig h C o m m is s i o n e r G u p t a a n d
a g a in I m a d e h i m a w a r e o f w h a t h a v e th e y f o ll o w e d , th e p r o c e d u r e s i n
t h e In d ia n H ig h C o m m i s s io n t h e y h a v e fo ll o w e d e s p e c ia ll y a r o u n d t h e
10

n o t e v e r b a l . Th a t w e , i t is u n a c c e p t a b l e f o r u s s o m e t h in g li k e t h is h a s
h a p p e n e d u n d e r h is w a tc h . I d id n o t a s k w h e t h e r h e w a s a w a r e o r n o t
b u t I a m s u r e y o u m a y b e a w a r e . S o t h e id e a o f th e s e c o n d m e e ti n g
was for him to know the issue of note verbal of no note verbal has
c a u s e d a m a j o r p r o b l e m a n d i s s o m e t h i n g S o u t h A fr ic a n d i p lo m a c y o r
g o v e r n m e n t t h a t w e t a k e v e r y, v e r y s e r i o u s . O f c o u r s e , h e a p o l o g iz e d .
H e k n e w t h e r e is a v e r y, v e r y s e r i o u s o v e r s ig h t fr o m h is . N o w o v e r s i g h t
is a d i p lo m a t ic t e r m . T h e y c a n n o t s a y w e fa il e d . S o C h a ir s h o u l d d e q u o t e w h a t I s a y fr o m t i m e t o ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

I h a v e to s t ic k t o m y, t h is is m y …

( in d is ti n c t) . T h is i s w h e r e I e a r n m y liv i n g . S o , n o c a n h e s a y I d i d a
m is t a k e . H e s a i d i t w a s a n o v e r s i g h t b u t I c a n d e - q u o t e t o s a y i t w a s a
v e r y, v e r y s e r i o u s ; v e r y s e r io u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E r r o r o r m is ta k e .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Er r o r fr o m t h e ir p a r t .

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : B u t a ls o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a t t h a t s t a g e , I a m s o r r y. A t t h a t s t a g e I g o b a c k
t o th e q u e s t i o n t h a t I a s k e d e a r li e r. N o w a t th a t s t a g e w h e n y o u w e r e
s p e a k i n g t o h i m i n t h e m e e t in g , y o u k n e w t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o n a t i o n a l
M i n is t e r s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : H e c l a r i fi e d t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w i f t h e r e w e r e n o n a t io n a l M in is t e r s a n d t h e r e

w e r e a n d I a m a s s u m in g a n d I k n o w t h a t y o u s a id y o u w e r e n o t s u r e ;
10

a s s u m i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s n o n e e d fo r, w a s t h e r e a n e e d fo r a n o t e
v e r b a l i f i t w a s j u s t S t a t e M i n is t e r s ? B e c a u s e t h e r e m i g h t b e n o
o v e r s ig h t o r m is t a k e t o s e n d a n o te v e r b a l if n o n o t e v e r b a l w a s
r e q u ir e d . H a v e y o u d e t e r m i n e d th a t a t t h a t s t a g e ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

C h a ir, i f t h i s w a s a r e a l w o r d i n g

p a r t y i t o u g h t t o … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i t w a s ? Is n o t it ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

I t w o u ld h a v e l a n d e d i n a c iv il ia n

a ir p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : In t h a t c a s e , is j u s t a w o r d in g p a r ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

No need for note verbal. They are

c o m i n g h e r e t o h a v e a n ic e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h e y a r e g u e s t .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Th e y g o t o w h e r e t h e y g o , e n j o y a n d
go back.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : B u t o n c e y o u g o t o a m i li t a r y b a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h e c iv i li a n p a r t g o e s a w a y b e c a u s e
n o w y o u a r e c o m in g t o a v e r y e x c lu s iv e a r e a , a s e n s i t iv e s e c u r i ty a r e a .
S o y o u n e e d t o p r o v i d e d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h y y o u c o m e t o a h i g h ly
10

s e c u r e d a r e a i n t h i s w a y. B u t w e d o h a v e a lo t o f h i g h - p r o fi le w o r d in g s
w h ic h a r e n o t w e r e S o u t h A f r ic a n s b e c a u s e th e y … ( i n d is ti n c t) . W e h a v e
a l o t o f p e o p l e w h o c o m e a n d m a r r y h e r e , w h o c o m e a n d b e l o w th e
r a d a r. I t i s a l o t o f h i g h - p r o f il e p e o p le c o m in g h e r e b u t th e y d o n o t
a tt r a c t

a t te n ti o n

because

is

lo w - p r o f il e .

So

it

c o u ld

have…

( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o t h e y g o t o W a te r k l o o f ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : N o , n o , n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d o n o t?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h e y d o n o t g o t o W a te r k l o o f .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA :

Wa t e r k lo o f t h e y c a n g o i f it i s a

r e q u ir e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : By s p e c ia l a r r a n g e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

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A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

B u t i t w i ll b e s u c h a n d is v e r y fe w

a n d fa r a p a r t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I t h in k w e w il l ta k e t h e s h o r t te a a d jo u r n m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : C h a ir, m a y b e c a n I fi n i s h la s t o n e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w a n t to m a k e th e l a s t o n e b e f o r e w e ta k e

adjournment?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

Ye s , b e c a u s e i n t h e s a m e m e e t i n g

w i t h t h e H i g h C o m m is s i o n e r b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : I t w a s t h o s e ; t h e s e c o n d is s u e w a s
the.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

Th e w h e r e a b o u ts o f t h e p a r ty. W e

agreed.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h a t th e a ir c r a f t o n th e 2 n d m u s t g o
to OTIA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To O R Ta m b o ?
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : O R Ta m b o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Ev e r y b o d y m u s t l e a v e fr o m t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

B u t t h e n w e g o t th e r e c o n c ili a t io n

fr o m H o m e A ff a ir s .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h a t s o m e p e o p l e a r e m i s s i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h e S t a t e M i n is te r s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA : S o I s a i d , h o w C o m m i s s i o n e r, w h e r e
a r e t h e s e p e o p le ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : H e s a i d , o h A m b a s s a d o r M a tj il a t h e y
10

c h a r te d a p r iv a te a i r c r a ft t o C a p e To w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r l a n d i n g a t W a t e r k l o o f?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : A f te r e n jo y i n g in S u n C i ty
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h e y c h a r te d a n a i r c r a ft .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : To C a p e To w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : A n d I g o t e v e n m o r e w o r r i e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

E v e n i f t h e y a r e S t a t e M i n is te r s i f

s o m e t h i n g h a p p e n s i n C a p e To w n , w e m a y b e b l a m e d a s S o u t h A fr ic a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : W e a r e n o t n o t i fi e d th a t th e y w o u l d
fl y d i ffe r e n tly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : W e t h o u g h t t h e y w ill c o m e t o c h a r te d
a ir c r a f t a n d l e a v e th e c h a r te d a ir c r a f t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

A t J e t A ir w a y s . S o t h e y w e n t t o

I n d ia . T h e n I s a i d b u t a l s o s o m e b o d y is m i s s i n g i n r e c o n c il ia t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : W h e r e i s t h e s o m e b o d y ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : S o w e m a n a g e d to i d e n ti fy t h e S t a te
10

M i n is t e r s in C a p e To w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

And were informed and what

h a p p e n e d w h ic h is tr u e , t h e y l e f t t h r o u g h E m i r a t e s v i a D u b a i b a c k t o
I n d ia . S o I j u s t w a n t to fi n is h t h a t p a r t b e f o r e b r e a k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . N o , th a t i s fi n e . B e f o r e w e t a k e th e

a d j o u r n m e n t , I j u s t w a n t t o a s k t h i s q u e s ti o n . Th is w a s a s I u n d e r s t a n d
t h e p o s it i o n a n a i r c r a ft t h a t w a s c o m i n g t o S o u t h A fr i c a t o b r in g g u e s ts
w h o w e r e g o in g t o a p r iv a t e w e d d i n g a n d s o m e o f t h e p e o p le w h o w e r e
s a i d t o b e i n c lu d e d i n t h e a ir c r a f t t o b e i n t h e a ir c r a f t w e r e S t a te
20

M i n is t e r s o f In d ia . D id a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d it , e v e n d a y w e r e n o t g o i n g
t o h a v e a n y m e e ti n g s w it h a n y g o v e r n m e n t o ff ic i a ls a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e
p o s i ti o n . S o t h e ir tr ip h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h a n y ; th e r e a r e c o m i n g t o
S o u th A fr ic a h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h a n y g o v e r n m e n t o ffic i a l . If m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g in r e g a r d t o t h o s e is s u e s is c o r r e c t t h e n i t j u s t s e e ms t o
m e th a t t h is w a s a c o m p l e te ly p r iv a t e v i s i t f o r e v e r y b o d y. Yo u c o u l d

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e m a y b e I d o n o t k n o w, S t a t e M i n i s t e r s fr o m I n d i a
a r e c o m in g t o S o u th A f r i c a . Th e y a r e g o i n g to m e e t s o m e M E C s m a y b e ,
I m a k e a n e x a m p le . T h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e s o m e g o v e r n m e n t b u s i n e s s to
d o a n d m a y b e a s w h i le th e y a r e i n S o u t h A fr i c a , t h e r e w i ll a ls o a t t e n d a
private

wedding.

Something

s u g g e s ts

to

me

that

under

those

c ir c u m s ta n c e s i t m a y b e t h a t i t m i g h t b e v ie w e d i n a c e r t a i n w a y, I a m
n o t s u r e b u t i t s e e m s th a t t h i s w a s j u s t c o m p l e t e ly p r i v a t e . T h e y w e r e
not

g o in g

to

meet

anybody

fr o m

government

and

have

o ffi c i a l

g o v e r n m e n t b u s i n e s s a n d t h a t f o r t h a t r e a s o n fo r a ll i n te n ts a n d
10

p u r p o s e s , t h is w a s p r iv a t e . Is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

C h a i r, a s w e d e e p d e e p e r a n d

d e e p e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA :

I t c a m e t o t r a n s p ir e th a t s o m e o f

t h e m p r iv a te ly a l s o w e n t to I t h i n k Fr e e S t a te t o m e e t M E C s th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

But we are not sure because this

w a s a c l o a k i n s e c r e c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : W e a r e n o t p r i v y to t h e ir p r o g r e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

W e j u s t u n d e r s t o o d th a t it s e e m s

s o m e o f t h e m i n C a p e To w n d id m e e t s o m e p e o p l e i n p r iv a t e c a p a c it i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

S o m e w e r e to Fr e e S t a t e to m e e t

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
M E C s th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA :

B u t w e d i d n o t h a v e a n y o ff ic i a l

d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : I s w h a t w e h a d to s a y, w h e r e i s s o a n d - s o , w h a t h a p p e n e d t o s o - a n d - s o ; th a t a c t u a ll y s o m e o f t h e m d i d
meet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h e ir c o u n t e r p a r ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : In s o m e p r o v i n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : B u t a s D IR C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : As D G , I w a s n o t p r iv y t o t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . S o i n t e r m s o f o ffic i a l d o c u m e n ts t o w h ic h

D IR C O h a d a c c e s s o r w i t h w h i c h D IR C O h a d b e e n fu r n is h e d , t h e r e w a s
n o i n ti m a t io n t h a t a n y o f t h o s e S t a te M i n i s t e r s w e r e g o i n g t o m e e t a n y
20

o ffic i a l fr o m g o v e r n m e n t . A n y b o d y th a t m i g h t h a v e k n o w n a n y th in g
m i g h t h a v e k n o w n i t o n th e b a s is o f u n o ffic ia l s o u r c e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : C h a ir, w e a r e n o r m a l ly g u id e d b y t h e
n o t e d v e r b a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : O n t h e p u r p o s e .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA : O f t h e v is it , w h a t t h e g u e s t w a n t t o
a c h i e v e a n d th e fa c i li t a t i o n t h a t w e d o a n d t h e n t h e p r o g r a m i s
developed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

I s a i d i t t r i g g e r e d t w o t h in g s …

( in d is ti n c t ] p r o g r a m a n d p r o to c o l c e r e m o n i a l .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , y e s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : S o w e c o u l d h a v e b e e n a w a r e e v e n
10

if it w a s p r i v a t e b u t th e n is a r e q u e s t t h a t d u r i n g t h e p r iv a c y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h e r e w ill b e a d in n e r w i t h s o - a n d - s o
M E C t o d is c u s s th is .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : S o a n d a c t u a ll y in s o m e p r iv a t e v is it
t h is d o h a p p e n H e a d o f S t a te m e e ts s o m e y o u , k n o w c o m p a n ie s , m e e ts
s o m e b u t y o u a r e a w a r e a l t h o u g h i t is p r i v a te . B u t i n t h is c a s e a s a D G
I h a d n o h i n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : O f t h e ir a c t u a l p u r p o s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : W h o t o m e e t a n d n o t t o m e e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I t a k e i t th a t a r o u n d t h e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e

d e a li n g w i th t h i s is s u e i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r t h e la n d i n g , y o u w o u l d h a v e
b e e n fu r n is h e d w i t h a ll r e le v a n t d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t a n y b o d y a t D I R C O

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
had access to.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Pr e c is e l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e r e f o r e , y o u w o u l d k n o w. Yo u w o u l d h a v e

k n o w n i f t h e r e w a s s o m e d o c u m e n t th a t h a d b e e n g i v e n to D I R C O t h a t
in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a p la n fo r t h e m t o m e e t s o m e M E C s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Ye s , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u . W e w il l t a k e th e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t

a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e . I t is 2 5 p a s t . W e w il l r e s u m e a t 2 0 t o 1 2 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
INQUIRY ADJOURNS FOR TEA
C H A I R P E R S O N : U r g e n t m e e ti n g s th a t s o m e t i m e s t a k e p l a c e d u r i n g t h e
tea break about Commission work. Thank you. Let us proceed, yes
ADV

TH A N D I N O R M A N :

Th a n k

you

Mr

C h a ir m a n . Th a n k

you,

A m b a s s a d o r w e w e r e s ti ll a t p a g e 5 . Yo u h a d f i n is h e d t h e p a r t a b o u t
t h e s e g u e s t s a n d th e q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u h a d p u t t o t h e H i g h
Commission of India. And then you deal in that same paragraph where
the

meeting

HC,

you

deal

w i th

d e v i a ti o n s

fr o m

normal

DIRCO

p r o c e s s e s . C o u ld y o u j u s t h i g h li g h t t h o s e ?
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

C h a ir, th e d e v i a t i o n w a s a s I s a i d

a ft e r w e h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h , w e tr i g g e r t h e is s u e o f i n t e r d e p a r t m e n t a l
m e e ti n g s . I t is t h a t f o r u m t h a t l o o k s i n t o t h e w h o le v is it a n d m a k e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n i n t e r m s o f c o n t e n t t o b e a c h i e v e d a n d S t a t e p r o t o c o l
s e r v ic e s . S o t h a t is th e o n e t h i n g . B u t a l s o th e b i la t e r a l t e s t n e e d s t o
a s s e s s a n d s a y s w e a g r e e t h a t t h i s v is it t a k e s p la c e . S o t h o s e w e r e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
s o m e o f th e d e v i a ti o n t h a t s o m e o f u s s e e i n th is p r o c e s s . Th a t t h e
b i la t e r a l t e s t c o n c e r n e d w a s n o t e n g a g e d f u l ly in t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s a n d
s o y o u c o u l d n o t a d v i s e t h e e x e c u t iv e o r t h e t o p m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e
d e p a r t m e n t to g o o r n o t n o r w a s a n y i n te r d e p a r t m e n t a l m e e t in g
c o n v e n e d . S o t h o s e w e r e s o m e o f t h e d e v i a ti o n t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Id e n ti fi e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you. And then having now regard that
t h e in f o r m a t io n a n d h a v i n g i n te r v i e w e d t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r o f I n d i a ,
10

w h a t w a s th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a t th e e n d o f i t a ll a s t o w h a t w e r e t h e
s t e p s t h a t h a d t o b e t a k e n a n d c o u l d y o u ju s t h i g h l i g h t w h a t th o s e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w e r e g o in g to b e ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA : W e ll , C h a ir f o l l o w i n g th e p r o c e d u r e s
a n d t h e o u t c o m e o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o n t h is W a t e r k lo o f a i r b a s e t h e n
t h e r e w a s a n is s u e o f d e p a r t m e n t c o n c e r n e s t a b l is h i n g t e a m s to g o
f u r th e r. C h a ir y o u w il l r e c a ll th a t D I R C O b e l o n g s t o t h e p u b l ic s e r v ic e .
S o P u b li c S e r v i c e A c t g u i d e s u s a n d d e f e n c e t h e y b e l o n g to a d i ff e r e n t
d is p e n s a t i o n . S o o n c e t h e y w e r e g o i n g t h r o u g h t h is p r o c e s s a n d t h e n
w e w e r e r e q u e s te d t h a t e a c h d e p a r t m e n t c a r r ie s o u t . S o i n D I R C O p a r t

20

w e h a v e to s e e th e p r o v i s i o n o f t h e p u b l ic s e r v ic e S M S h a n d b o o k ,
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e d u r e s in t h e d e p a r t m e n t . I a m s u r e t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e
is d i d th e i r o w n w o r k , g i v e n t h e ir o w n p r e s c r i p t, th e ir o w n g u i d e li n e ,
t h e ir o w n … ( in d i s ti n c t) p r o v is i o n b u t w e w e r e , h a d to d e a l w i t h o u r o w n
c o l l e a g u e s w i th i n t h e P u b li c S e r v i c e A c t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Ye s . A n d th e n w h ic h o ff ic i a ls d i d y o u th e n

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
d e c i d e t o i m p l e m e n t t h o s e d i s c ip li n a r y c h a r g e s a g a i n s t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

In th e D I R C O , t h e D D G o f h u m a n

r e s o u r c e s a s i n h i s p o r t fo li o th e d i s c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g is p a r t o f h is
r e s p o n s i b i li ty. A n d s o I w a n t e d t o s o r t o f d is ta n c e m y s e l f b e c a u s e I w a s
e n g a g e d th r o u g h . S o I d i d n o t w a n t t o p r e j u d ic e th e c o ll e g e i m p l ic a te d .
S o I s a id to t h e D D G H R w h o i s n o w h a p p e n e d t o b e t h e D G o f D IR C O ,
p l e a s e tr i g g e r i n th e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e d u r e s . M a k e s u r e t h a t y o u f o l l o w
t h e p r e s c r i p ts , y o u f o l lo w e v e r y t h i n g a n d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e
c o l l e a g u e i m p l ic a te d is g iv e n t h e c h a n c e t o c o m e a n d a p p e a r b e f o r e th e
10

p a n e l . I n th a t c o n t e x t t h e r e f o r e , C h a ir, t h e D D G H R e v e n t h i s th in g a s
h is o w n p o r tf o li o t r i g g e r e d i n d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g . N o w i n t h e D I R C O
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g is a b o u t , is a c o r r e c ti v e p r o c e s s i d e n t if y, w e
c o r r e c t a n d r e h a b i li t a te . I t is m e a n t t o b e h u m a n e o r ie n t a t e d p r o c e s s
e s p e c i a l ly i f t h e p e r s o n c a n n o t h a v e a fi n a l s a y. F o r i n s t a n c e , w e d o
n o t o w n a n y m il i ta r y b a s e . S o w e lo o k a t t h a t th a t w e a r e n o t t h e o n e
w h o h a v e a fi n a l s a y a s D I R C O . S o i t i s th e d e f e n c e . S o w e t h e n t r i g g e r
t h a t p r o c e s s . T h e n th e D D G H R f o l lo w e d h i s p r o c e d u r e s , p r e s c r i p ts ,
c a m e w i th a s u b m is s io n t o m e id e n ti fy th e r e le v a n t p e o p l e t o f o r m t h e
h e a r in g in D I R C O . I t h in k i n th is c a s e i t w a s A d v o c a te N B M o t l a j w a n e

20

fr o m t h e P r e t o r i a b a r t o l e a d th is b e c a u s e w e n e e d e d s o m e b o d y fr o m
t h e le g a l fr a te r n it y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Ye s , w h o w a s g o i n g t o b e d i s c i p li n e d ? T h e

p e r s o n t h a t w a s g o in g to b e d is c ip li n e d .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

In this case Ambassador Koloane

w a s i d e n ti f ie d fr o m t h e h e a r i n g a s p e r s o n t o w h ic h I s h o u l d m a k e s o m e

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d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e d u r e s . A n d t h e r e fo r e , I t h e n i n v it e d t h e D D G H R t o
tr i g g e r t o s a y, lo o k t h i s a p p l ic a ti o n fr o m t h e h e a r i n g . A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e h a s b e e n i m p l ic a te d . C a n y o u c a r r y th is t h i n g o v e r w i th i n t h e
p r e s c r i p t s o f t h e P u b l ic S e r v i c e A c t a n d r e le v a n t p r e s c r ip t s , p r o c e d u r e s
o f a d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . A n d m a y b e j u s t to r e f e r y o u . T h e r e w o u l d
b e a b u n d l e Ex h ib i t F F 3 w h ic h c o n t a in s . I t is in a v e r y, i n a s m a ll is h
le v e r a r c h f il e F F 3 . I t c o n t a i n s A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e ’s d i s c i p l i n a r y
p r o c e e d i n g s . T h e r e i s a l e tt e r w h i c h b e a r s y o u r n a m e in t h e F F 3 a t
10

p a g e 3 . T h a t w il l b e u n d e r t h e d iv id e r m a r k e d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y Ms N o r m a n ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , M r C h a ir m a n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n w h ic h E x h ib i t a r e w e n o w ?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N :

W e a r e o n E x h ib it F F 3 Mr C h a ir m a n . I j u s t

w a n t to … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON: I do not seem to get Exhibit FF3 here.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : M a y b e t o p u t it b e h in d y o u , C h a ir. I t is j u s t a
le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n . I f th e w i t n e s s m a y ju s t b e a l lo w e d t o i d e n t if y.
CHAIRPERSON: I have got Exhibits 2A and B.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 4 , 5 , 7 ,8 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: 6, 9 and 10.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : 3 y o u s a i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : C h a ir, I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d to i t b u t

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t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d i t l a s t w e e k a n d I h a d a s k e d th a t a ll o f y o u r
b u n d l e s b e r e t u r n e d t h is m o r n i n g . I j u s t w a n t e d th e w it n e s s t o j u s t
s i m p l y i d e n ti f y i f y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t c o n ti n u e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I may be able to.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : To fi n d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o w i th o u t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN:
10

Ye s , I a p o l o g i z e f o r t h a t . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e

t h a t l e t te r … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k w h a t s h o u ld b e d o n e i s e v e r y m o r n in g

s o m e b o d y m u s t c h e c k fr o m t h e le g a l t e a m t h a t e v e r y th i n g t h a t I s h o u l d
h a v e is h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , Mr C h a ir m a n . T h a n k y o u . P a g e 3 , a r e y o u
there, Ambassador?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : P a g e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : 3 o n t o p i t w il l b e V B K 0 0 3 .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Is i t th is fi le ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : L o o k a t t h e s p i n e i t w i ll b e F F 3 .
20

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : F F 3 .
CHAIRPERSON:

L o o k a t t h e s p in e o f t h e l e v e r a r c h fi le a n d s e e

w h e t h e r i t is w r it t e n F F3 . O k a y s h e w il l h e l p y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : C h a ir, m a y I in t h e m e a n ti m e j u s t h a n d u p a
spare copy for your?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : J u s t s o t h a t y o u c a n b e a b l e to f o l lo w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e p a g e n u m b e r th a t y o u w a n t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : P a g e 3 Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 3 o f Ex h i b it F F 3 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : O k a y, I s a w i t j a .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N :
10

Thank you. Did you suspend Ambassador

K o lo a n e ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

Ye s , i n th e m o r n i n g o f t h e 2 n d w e

did.
CHAIRPERSON: 2nd of May?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : O f M a y. R e c a l l i n t h e e v e n i n g w h e n
w e b r i e fe d t h e M i n is t e r, s h e s a id A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e s h o u ld b e
s u s p e n d e d . B u t y o u s e e b u r e a u c r a ts a r e t h e r e t o a s s is t t h e e x e c u ti v e
t o d o t h in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r ig h t w a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h a t is y o u r s a y. Is to h e l p t o g u id e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : W e c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h e s e n ti m e n t o f
t h e M i n i s t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

B u t o u r r o l e is t o m a k e s u r e t h a t

t h i n g s a r e d o n e a p p r o p r i a t e ly w i t h o u t v ic t i mi z i n g a n y o n e . T h a t is w h y

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a ft e r w e h a d a s h o r t s l e e p , w e c a m e b a c k a n d d r a f t e d t h i s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s a y a t th a t m e e t in g th e M in is t e r t o o k t h is

p o s i ti o n th a t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e s h o u ld b e s u s p e n d e d .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h a t w a s e a r l y h o u r s o f t h e 2 n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

B u t a s a n a c c o u n t in g o ff ic e r I a m

d ir e c t e d b y t h e c e r t a in p r o c e d u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d l e g is l a t i o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : L e g i s l a t io n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

A n d t h e n a l s o I a m a d v i s e d b y th e

DDG HR.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

W h o a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d , c a m e fr o m

p u b lic s e r v ic e c o m m i s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : O n t h e l e g a li ty o f d o i n g t h in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA :
20

S o t h a t t h e c o l l e a g u e i s n o t u n d u ly

c o m p r o m is e d o r h i s h u m a n r i g h t s a r e u n d e r m in e d b e c a u s e h e h a s a
r ig h t ; r e c a ll is a n a l le g a ti o n . S o w i t h th e a d v ic e o f th e D D G H R I
d r a f t e d t h i s le t t e r … ( i n d is ti n c t) a n d th e n c a l le d i n A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e .
To s a y, b y t h e w a y h e w a s a ls o i n th e m e e ti n g w i th t h e M in is t e r b u t y o u
k n o w w e s a i d w e w il l fo ll o w t h e p r o c e d u r e s . S o a f te r I d r a f t e d i t , I
c a l l e d A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e t o my o ff ic e a n d s a i d , A m b a s s a d o r, w e a r e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
g o i n g t o h a v e th e s e p r o c e d u r e s fo ll o w e d . I t h in k i t t r i g g e r e d t h e s a m e
w i t h o th e r d e p a r t m e n t s . T h e n h e l o o k e d a t t h e l e t te r a n d I s a i d ,
Ambassador you can take it home, consult your lawyers because he has
a r i g h t th a t a f t e r c e r t a in d a t e h e c a n s a y, A m b a s s a d o r I a m g o i n g t o
q u e s t io n . I a m g o i n g t o q u e s ti o n t h is o r b u t a f t e r h e r e a d i t, h e a p p li e d
h is m i n d . A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e c o u n te r s i g n e d . B u t C h a ir, I u n d e r s ta n d
a t t h a t ti m e I t h i n k t h e m e d i a w a s j u s t t o o m u c h o n h i m a n d I c a n n o t
u n d e r s t a n d is fe e li n g a n d h i s f a m i ly a n d e v e r y b o d y. I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a n
o v e r e x p o s u r e w h i c h I t h o u g h t w a s n o t a p p r o p r i a te a t t h a t ti m e b e c a u s e
10

we had no facts. So Ambassador read it. I gave him a chance to do
b e c a u s e I a m b y t h e l a w t o g iv e h i m t o h i m , s tu d y it , h a v e a n y l e g a l
a d v ic e ,

then

sign.

So

indeed

Ambassador

Koloane

after

the

d is c u s s io n s , h e r e a d i t b y h i m s e l f i n t h e p r e m is e s . T h e n h e s ig n e d .
T h e n I s a id , A m b a s s a d o r y o u w il l b e c o n t a c t e d b y t h e H R . S o w e a r e
g o i n g t o t r i g g e r t h is p r o c e s s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y t h e n p u t
a s i d e F F 3 a s i d e A m b a s s a d o r. T h e n a d i s c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s t h e n a s y o u
h a v e a l r e a d y i n d ic a t e d w a s e m b a r k e d u p o n w h ic h l e d t o A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e p le a d i n g g u il ty t o th r e e o f t h e c h a r g e s w i t h o u t fa c ts a n d
20

e v i d e n c e a s w e r e a d th e r e c o r d o f th e p r o c e e d in g s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

Ye s , C h a ir. T h e n t h e D D G H R to o k

over and I stood back.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : A n d a ll o w e d h i m t o d o h is j o b p e r h is
p r o f il e a n d s c o p e . S o D D G H R , D D G M a r h w a y i t h e n w e n t to c o n s u l t,

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id e n t i fy t h e a p p r o p r ia t e p e o p l e t o d e a l w it h t h e in q u ir y. A s I s a y i n t h is
c a s e , A d v o c a t e M B M a t le j w a n e fr o m P r e t o r i a b a r w a s id e n ti fi e d a n d
C h a ir. A n d t h e n w e i d e n ti f ie d D o c t o r H N M a n z i n i fr o m I n d e p e n d e n t
D e v e l o p m e n t Tr u s t t o r e p r e s e n t t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e c h o s e t o r e p r e s e n t h i m s e l f . N o l e g a l … ( i n d is ti n c t) . S o th e
charges I want to presume were read to Ambassador Koloane. He went
t o s e e th e m a n d o n t h e 2 7 t h o f M a y, A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e w a s s e r v e d
w i t h n o t ic e o f d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g a n d h e a c t u a ll y r e c e iv e d t h e r e o f . A n d
t h e n t h e r e w a s t h r e e c h a r g e s th a t w e r e la i d . A n d a ft e r th e p r o c e s s e s b y
10

b o t h , I t h i n k t h e y m e t o n t h e 11 t h , h e a r in g o n t h e 11 t h a n d 2 2 J u ly. T h e n
t h e e m p l o y e e i n t h is c a s e A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e h a d p l e a d e d g u il ty t o
t h e c h a r g e s . A n d a g a i n , t h e p a r t ie s w e r e g iv e n a n a m p le o p p o r t u n i ty t o
p r e s e n t m i ti g a ti n g f a c t o r s b e f o r e th e C h a i r c o u l d i s s u e t h e s a n c t i o n s . I
t h i n k t h e r e a f te r th e n o n t h e 2 9 t h o f J u ly t h e s a n c ti o n s w e r e is s u e d a n d
p r o n o u n c e d . S u s p e n s i o n w i t h o u t p a y f o r a p e r io d o f t w o m o n th s a s a n
a l t e r n a t iv e t o d is m is s a l in t e r ms o f C l a u s e 2 . 7 4 o f t h e , C h a p te r 7 o f
S M S h a n d b o o k ; t h a t is t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a n d a fi n a l w r it t e n w a r n in g
w h ic h s h a ll b e p la c e d i n th e e m p l o y e e ’s p e r s o n a l f il e a n d s h a ll r e m a i n
v a l i d f o r s ix m o n t h s . S o t h is i s t h e s u b m i s s i o n t h a t I fi n a l ly a t t h e e n d

20

a g a in t h r o u g h th e D D G H R . To s a y I h a v e fi n i s h e d m y w o r k D G a n d t h is
is t h e o u tc o m e . S o m y r o le w a s to i m p l e m e n t t h e s a n c t io n s a s s u c h .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : A n d it w a s i n d e e d i m p l e m e n t e d ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

A n d t h e y w e r e d u l y i m p l e m e n te d ,

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r r o le th e r e is i m p o r t a n t . I t w a s to j u s t i m p le m e n t

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t h e , i r r e s p e c t iv e o f w h a t y o u m a y h a v e t h o u g h t a b o u t t h e s a n c t io n ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Ye s , C h a ir b e c a u s e I p r e s u m e d t h a t
t h e y h a d a ll th e fa c ts a t t h e ir d is p o s a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : B o th t h e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : A n d t h e lik e th e i r mi n d th o r o u g h l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :
10

a d v is e d

me

a ls o

k n o w in g

th e

And the HR who, DDG HR who
s y s te m

and

SMS

handbook

and

d is c i p l i n a r y c o d e . T h e y a l l s a ti s f y th e m s e lv e s t h a t is a p p r o p r ia t e
s a n c ti o n g iv e n w h a t h a s tr a n s p ir e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

A n d C h a ir, m i n e w a s t o i m p l e m e n t

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

H m . Yo u m i g h t n o t h a v e a n y th i n g to s a y a b o u t t h is

b e c a u s e y o u r r o l e a s y o u s a y w a s to i m p l e m e n t .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

C h a ir, l e t m e t e l l y o u w h y I

i m p l e m e n te d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

W h e n w e s t a r te d i n 1 9 9 4 , a n d w e

c a m e fe w o f u s i n g o v e r n m e n t h e w e n t t o D I R C O . I t h i n k A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e w e n t t o D TI . Ve r y f e w s k il f u l k n o w l e d g e a b l e p e o p l e w h o w e r e
n o t in g o v e r n m e n t c a m e i n t o tr y t o d r iv e th e n e w g o v e r n m e n t , n e w
p o li c i e s . R e m e m b e r th is w a s 9 9 . 9 % w h i te e s t a b li s h m e n t i n e v e r y t h i n g .

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S o w e n e e d e d a h i g h ly in t e l li g e n t , h i g h ly k n o w l e d g e a b le , h i g h ly s k i l fu l
a n d c o n fi d e n t a n d q u a li fi e d p e o p l e t o g o i n to g o v e r n m e n t t o is s u e
tr a n s fo r m a t i o n . A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e w a s o n e o f t h e m . A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e w a s s e n t b y t h e D T I I th in k in To k y o . Th e n I m e t h i m t h e r e .
R e c a ll I s p e n t s ix y e a r s i n m y p r e v i o u s y e a r s i n J a p a n . I t is a v e r y
d i ff ic u l t e n v ir o n m e n t b e c a u s e th e y d o n o t k n o w S o u t h A fr ic a n s . I t i s
v e r y f a r. T h e y d o n o t e v e n u n d e r s t a n d E n g l is h , le t a l o n e th e i r c u l tu r e .
S o f o r a d i p lo m a t t o p e n e tr a te t h e m a r k e t i n J a p a n t o a tt r a c t i n v e s t m e n t
b e t w e e n S o u t h A fr i c a y o u n e e d a n e x tr a o r d i n a r y c a p a b l e p e r s o n t o d o
10

that. Ambassador Koloane came from that stock. We were young
p e o p l e . A n d I a m s a y i n g t h is t h i n g b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n a r o u n d i n th is
f o r a l o n g t i m e a n d I u n d e r s ta n d t h e n e e d , t h e k n o w l e d g e o f a p e r s o n .
A n d I a m s u r e I w a s t h e o n ly f e w S o u th A f r ic a n a t t h a t ti m e w h e n I w a s
w i t h t h e J a p a n e s e . A c t u a l ly As ia , I d o n o t t h i n k t h e r e w a s a n y o th e r
S o u th A f r ic a n w h o u n d e r s t a n d s As i a l ik e I d i d . S o w h e n I w e n t t o J a p a n
b e c a u s e p a r t o f m y w o r k , C h a ir, w a s t o t r y t o tr a n s fo r m D I R C O i n t o n e w
c o n c e p t o f s tr a t e g i c p la n n i n g b e c a u s e w e f o u n d t h a t th e y w e r e j u s t
w o r k i n g . S o w e w e r e a d o p t in g s o m e c o n c e p ts fr o m p r iv a te s e c t o r to
m a k e s u r e t h a t g o v e r n m e n t f u n c ti o n s e ff ic i e n t ly. S o w e b o r r o w fr o m

20

p r i v a t e s e c t o r t h a t t h e s e fu n c t io n s li k e s tr a t e g ic p l a n n i n g , a n n u a l
p e r f o r m a n c e b a s is . S o th a t w a s m y r o l e , s o I u s e d t o g o a ll o v e r to
tr a i n d i p l o m a ts o n t h e s p o t a b o u t t h e s e n e w c o n c e p ts . T h a t is w h e n I
m e t s o m e o f m y o ld fr i e n d s i n J a p a n i n b u s i n e s s b u r e a u c r a c y. A n d I
f o u n d t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e th e n h e w a s o ff ic ia l i n D TI n o t i n
D IR C O w a s e q u a l t o t h a t t a s k . S o w h e n w e e x p a n d i n g o u r f o o t p r i n t in

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A s i a e s p e c i a lly i n C h i n a a n d w e w e r e o p e n i n g u p a d i p l o m a t ic p o s t in
S h a n g h a i ; i s a h e a r t o f C h i n e s e e c o n o m y. I s a id t o th e t h e n P r e s i d e n t ,
t h a t w e n e e d s o m e b o d y t o u n d e r s t a n d b u s in e s s . S h a n g h a i is b u s in e s s .
S o A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e w a s id e n ti fi e d fr o m D T I a s th e h e a d …
( in d is ti n c t) G e n e r a l i n S h a n g h a i , t h e o n e w h o c a n e ff e c t t h is b e c a u s e
h e h a d t h e k n o w le d g e o f As i a . S o a n d I m u s t c o n fe s s , h e d i d a n
e x c e l l e n t j o b , e x c e ll e n t j o b . N e w m is s i o n b u t y o u c o u l d s e e th e
in v e s t m e n ts . Yo u c o u l d s e e th e p r o c u r e m e n t fr o m S o u t h A f r ic a . A s a
r e s u l t , th e n A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e w a s a s k e d to g o to B e ij in g a s a
10

number

two

in

B e i ji n g

for

Greater

China.

But

because

of

h is

p e r f o r m a n c e , t h e P r e s i d e n t p r o m o te d h i m t o b e a n A m b a s s a d o r a n d
s e n t h i m t o S p a i n . S p a in i s p a r t o f th e E U a n d a s a b a r r i e r a r e a , w e a r e
tr y i n g to r e i n fo r c e o u r r e la t io n s h i p . S o t h e n A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e w a s
n o t p r o m o te d fr o m ( i n d is t i n c t) G e n e r a l d e p u ty t o a n A m b a s s a d o r in
Spain. Now some of us who see these young people growing over a
p e r i o d o f t i m e , o f c o u r s e y o u d o s t u m b le i n l i f e . Yo u k n o w a l l o f u s w e
m a k e m is t a k e s . S o th a t is w h y w h e n I g o t th is r e p o r t fr o m t h e
C o m m i s s i o n a n d I u n d e r s ta n d t h e t o ta li ty o f t h e A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e is
a n d I s a w t h is , y o u k n o w h a s a m is h a p . H e c o u l d n o t y o u r a is e t h e t o ta l
20

p ic t u r e o f h is c o n t r i b u t io n to S o u th A fr ic a n d i p l o m a c y a n d e c o n o m y.
T h a t is w h a t , C h a ir I i m p l e m e n t e d a s a c o r r e c t iv e w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e q u e s ti o n t h a t I w a s th i n k i n g o f a s k in g y o u , I a m
n o t g o i n g t o a s k y o u b e c a u s e I th in k I s h o u l d r e s e r v e i t f o r s o m e b o d y
e ls e o t h e r t h a n y o u . B u t y o u d o a c c e p t , d o y o u n o t a n d a s a g e n e r a l
p r i n c i p l e t h a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a in t h i n g s t h a t i f y o u h a v e d o n e i t d o e s n o t

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
m a t t e r h o w g o o d y o u a r e , y o u m a y h a v e t o g o ? I a m n o t t a lk in g a b o u t
t h is s p e c i fi c m a t te r. I a m j u s t in g e n e r a l; y o u a c c e p t t h a t? I n g e n e r a l ,
not about.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

I n s o m e s p e c i fi c t h i n g s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : In s o m e a r e a s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: In some areas, yes.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o t h a t is fi n e . T h a n k y o u . M s N o r m a n ?
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h e n
A m b a s s a d o r th e r e is a r e p o r t w h i c h a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 0 o f t h e s a m e , i f
y o u g o b a c k s o r r y t o E x h i b i t F F 11 . T h e r e is a , n o t h a t is t h e o n e t h a t
h a s y o u r a ffi d a v it . F F 11 .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h i s o n e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN: That one.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Ye s ,
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . T h is is a r e p o r t w h ic h y o u fo r w a r d e d t o
N IC O C b u t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s u m m a r iz e d e v e r y t h i n g th a t is y o u r
in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n o f I n d i a a n d t h e m e e t i n g s o f t h e

20

D G ’s a n d th e M in is t e r s , a l l o f th a t y o u h a v e s u m m a r iz e d t h a t r e p o r t.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . I j u s t w a n t y o u t o i d e n t i fy i t a n d a le t t e r
w h ic h y o u w r o t e f o r w a r d i n g it , a p p e a r s a t p a g e 9 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : N o , i t is i n th e fi le t h a t is .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : F F 11 .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : F F11 E x h i b i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : E x h ib i t F F11 a t p a g e 9 .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

I n e e d t e c h n ic a l h e lp fr o m t h e

Commission.
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I LA :

Is th e r e s o m e a s s is ta n c e f r o m t h e

Commission?
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you.
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h i s o n e d o e s n o t h a v e F F 11 .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Page 9.

A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : P a g e 9 . I h a v e s e e n i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : H a v e y o u s e e n i t ? Ye s , t h a t is t h e le t t e r w h e r e
y o u f o r w a r d e d th e r e p o r t t o N I C O C .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : In d e e d , C h a ir.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a ir. Th a t
is t h e e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you done?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O f t h e A m b a s s a d o r. T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h A m b a s s a d o r f o r c o m i n g t o g iv e
20

e v i d e n c e a n d h e l p th e C o m m i s s i o n . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A :

S o , C h a ir, c a n I g o b a c k t o N e w

Yo r k ? I s t h a t I a m r e l e a s e d ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I f I r e f u s e y o u r r e q u e s t , w h a t w i ll h a p p e n to S o u th

A fr ic a i n th e fa m i ly o f t h e n a ti o n s ?
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . Yo u c a n g o b a c k t o N e w Yo r k .
A M B A S S A D O R J E R R Y M AT J I L A : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h .
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a short adjournment?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , p le a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e w o u ld t a k e a s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t b e f o r e t h e
n e x t w it n e s s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
INQURY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir p e r s o n is

A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e b u t b e f o r e I l e a d A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e h is l e g a l
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s w o u l d li k e to p la c e c e r t a i n m a t t e r s b e fo r e y o u , t h a n k
20

you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V M A H A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, j u s t f o r p u r p o s e s o f f o r m a li ty t o p l a c e
o u r s e lv e s o n r e c o r d , I r e p r e s e n t A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e , i t i s A d v o c a t e
M a h a n a s s is t e d b y A d v o c a t e C h a v a l a l a h . A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e w a s n o t
f o r m a l ly s u b p o e n a e d b u t w a s r e q u e s te d t o a p p e a r b y t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
L e g a l Te a m o n t h e 2 7 t h o f J u n e , h e h a s m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts to b e h e r e
a t t h e ir r e q u e s t . W e – t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t w e g o t fr o m t h e le t t e r w a s
o b v i o u s l y t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s L e g a l Te a m i n te n d e d to l e a d t h e
e v i d e n c e o f M r K o l o a n e a n d I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t h a t is w h a t th e y i n te n d
to do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V M A H A N : W e w i ll i f s o a d v i s e d w e m a y r e - e x a m i n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o t h a t is fi n e .
ADV MAHAN: As it please you.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

M r C h a ir m a n

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e d o e s n o t h a v e a f o r m a l s ta t e m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n
p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u . Th e r e h a s b e e n s o m e m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o w h a t
is i t – t h e b r e a k , t h e p e r i o d t h a t w a s r e q u e s t e d o n Tu e s d a y b u t b e t h a t
a s i t m a y h e is w il li n g t o te s t i fy a n d I w o u l d b e g le a v e to le a d h i m .
Thank you. May he be sworn in.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A d m i n is t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n t o h i m .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
20

REGISTRAR:

Vu s i B r u c e K o lo a n e .

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

D e fi n it e ly n o t .

REGISTRAR: Do you consider to be binding on your conscience?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Ye s I d o .

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e tr u th ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
REGISTRAR:

Ye s .

If so please raise your right hand and say so help me

God.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

S o h e lp m e G o d .

REGISTRAR: Thank you.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

( d u ly s w o r n , s t a t e s )

CHAIRPERSON:

Ambassador as Ms Norman

Thank you very much.

h a s in d ic a t e d w e d o n o t h a v e a s t a t e m e n t fr o m y o u , b u t b e c a u s e o f
10

w h a t s h e s a y s w a s a m is u n d e r s ta n d i n g b u t w e d o h a v e m a te r i a l w h e r e
y o u r n a m e i s m e n t io n e d in r e g a r d t o t h e in c i d e n t t h a t w e w a n t y o u to
s h a r e y o u r k n o w le d g e a b o u t . I j u s t w a n t t o i n d ic a te to y o u t h a t y o u w il l
b e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s b y M s N o r m a n , I m a y a l s o a s k q u e s ti o n s , ju s t f e e l
fr e e , a n s w e r t o th e b e s t o f y o u r a b il i ty, a n d i f y o u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d a
q u e s t io n f e e l fr e e t o a s k f o r it t o b e r e p e a te d , a n d i t w ill b e r e p e a t e d ,
a n d g iv e y o u r a n s w e r s t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r a b i li ty a n d a s h o n e s t ly a s
r e q u ir e d w h e n a n y b o d y i s u n d e r o a th .
T h e w h o l e p u r p o s e i s to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d , w h a t r o l e
e v e r y o n e w h o is m e n ti o n e d p l a y e d , h a d p l a y e d a n d s i n c e y o u a r e

20

m e n ti o n e d w e a ls o w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t r o l e y o u p l a y e d a n d i t i s
i m p o r t a n t t h a t I s h o u l d u n d e r s t a n d a s m u c h a s p o s s i b l e b e c a u s e in th e
e n d I w i ll m a k e fi n d i n g s .

I m u s t u n d e r s t a n d y o u r o w n p e r s p e c ti v e a s

w e ll a s t o w h a t y o u r r o le w a s , w h a t m a y h a v e b e e n in y o u r m i n d i n
d e a li n g w i t h m a t t e r s in a p a r ti c u la r m a n n e r, s o th is i s a n o p p o r t u n i ty
w h e r e y o u c a n j u s t s h a r e w it h t h e C o m m i s s i o n e x a c tl y w h a t y o u k n o w

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a n d y o u r p e r s p e c ti v e s o t h a t w h e n y o u a r e d o n e w e h a v e – I h a v e a f u ll
p ic t u r e o f w h a t y o u r r o l e m a y h a v e b e e n , y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Ye s I d o M r C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u , y o u m a y p r o c e e d M s N o r m a n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . A m b a s s a d o r

is i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u a r e c u r r e n t ly s e r v i n g a s a n A m b a s s a d o r i n th e
Netherlands?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s i t i s .

Ye s , a n d a s y o u h a v e i n d i c a t e d y o u h a v e

b e e n in v i t e d th e n t o te ll y o u r v e r s i o n o f w h a t – t h e p e r s o n s t h a t y o u
lis t e n e d to l a s t w e e k , t h e e v id e n c e o f M s S i n d a n e , t h e f o r m e r D ir e c to r
G e n e r a l o f J u s t ic e a n d C o n s t i tu t io n a l D e v e l o p m e n t a n d t h e e v i d e n c e o f
M a jo r N ts h is i , y o u w e r e p r e s e n t w h e n t h o s e p e r s o n s t e s t if i e d , is th a t
correct?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s I w a s .

Ye s , n o w s h a ll w e th e n ju s t d e a l b r i e fl y

w i t h h o w y o u g o t t o k n o w a b o u t th e la n d i n g o f t h e J e t A i r w a y s a t t h e
Wa t e r k l o o f , t h e v e r y fi r s t ti m e t h a t y o u w e r e t o l d a b o u t i t , w h o t o l d y o u
a n d . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e q u e s t . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : . . .a n d t h e r e q u e s t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e q u e s t f o r th e l a n d i n g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e r e q u e s t f o r th e l a n d i n g y e s .

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

W e ll I g o t t h e r e q u e s t fo r

t h e l a n d in g f o r t h e – t o k n o w a b o u t t h e r e q u e s t f o r th e la n d i n g w a s

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
w h e n I g o t a t e l e p h o n e c a l l fr o m t h e f o r m e r H ig h C o m m is s i o n e r o f
I n d ia n , A m b a s s a d o r G u p t a , w h o c a ll e d m e a n d i n fo r m e d m e t h a t t h e y
h a d a p p l ie d f o r a fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e fo r la n d i n g a t W a t e r k l o o f a n d i t h a s
b e e n o v e r s i x d a y s b u t t h e y h a v e n o t h a d a r e s p o n s e w h i ls t n o t a f e w
m o n th s e a r l ie r t h e y h a d h e a r d t h e P r e s i d e n t o f I n d i a v i s i ti n g S o u t h
A fr ic a o n a S t a t e v is i t a n d i t to o k le s s th a n t h r e e d a y s t o g e t t h e fli g h t
c le a r a n c e , s o h e w a n t e d t o s a y t o m e A m b a s s a d o r c a n y o u c h e c k f o r
m e a n d f o ll o w u p t o fi n d o u t w h a t is k e e p i n g i t f o r th is l o n g , t h a t is t h e
fir s t t i m e th a t I h e a r d a b o u t i t .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w . . .( i n te r v e n ti o n )

M a y b e b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d t h e r e , m a y b e l e t u s j u s t

h e a r w h a t y o u r u s u a l r o l e is i n r e g a r d t o r e q u e s t s f o r v is i ts fo r H e a d s o f
S t a te , M in is t e r s , o r p r iv a t e v is i ts in te r m s o f w h a t y o u r f u n c ti o n w a s ,
your job was at that time.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

O k a y. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. As

t h e C h i e f o f S t a te P r o t o c o l a n d I a m t a lk in g a b o u t t h e p o r t f o l i o , n o t t h e
in d i v i d u a l , o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t i s p r in c i p a l ly y o u r r e s p o n s i b il i ty is th e
m a in t e n a n c e o f c o r d ia l r e l a t i o n s w i th a l l t h e d i p lo m a t ic m is s i o n s w h i c h
a r e r e s id e n t i n S o u t h A fr ic a . Yo u b e c o m e t h e f ir s t p o i n t o f c a l l t o S o u th
20

A fr ic a b e c a u s e a n y p e r s o n c o m i n g t o S o u th A fr ic a f ir s t i n te r a c ts w i th
P r o t o c o l b e f o r e t h e y c a n e v e n m e e t w i t h th e p o li t ic a l p r i n c i p a ls , a n d
t h e r e f o r e i n s e r v ic in g a ll t h e d ip l o m a tic m is s i o n s I g e t r e q u e s t s o f –
t h a t a r e w i d e - r a n g in g , r a n g i n g f r o m s a y in g A m b a s s a d o r a s s is t u s , t h e r e
a r e p e o p le w h o p a r k r ig h t i n f r o n t o f o u r E m b a s s i e s a n d t h e r e f o r e I
h a v e t o e n g a g e th e D i p l o m a t ic P o l ic e a n d s a y c a n y o u p l e a s e g o a n d

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a s s is t th e E m b a s s y o f S i n g a p o r e i s c o m p la in i n g , a n d t h e y w i ll g o a n d
c h e c k a n d t h e y w i ll s e e t h a t m a y b e t h e y m a y n e e d t o d e m a r c a t e t h e
a r e a s o th a t it i s c le a r ly m a r k t h a t i t i s o n l y d ip l o m a tic p a r k i n g o r i t m a y
a ls o g o t o t h e e x t e n t o f a r e q u e s t f o r f li g h t c l e a r a n c e s c o mi n g in t o t h e
R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A f r i c a , a n d I t h i n k a s w a s a l s o i n d i c a t e d b e t w e e n
Wednesday and Thursday when we heard the testimonies of the people
t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r t h e r e a r e th r e e w a y s , I t h i n k i t w a s
s t a te d u n d e r o a th t h e r e a s w e ll t h a t s u c h r e q u e s ts m a y c o m e , t h e y m a y
g o d i r e c tly t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e o r t h e y m a y c o m e t h r o u g h
10

D IR C O , I h a v e f o r g o t t e n t h e t h ir d o n e t h a t th e y m e n t i o n e d .

I n t h is i f

t h e y c o m e t h r o u g h D I R C O w h a t n o r m a l ly h a p p e n s is t h a t I w i ll s a y, I
w i ll a n y w a y n o r m a ll y a s th e D G s a id e a r l i e r I w o u ld h a v e k n o w n a b o u t i t
b e c a u s e i f i t i s a S t a t e v is i t d u r i n g t h e m e e ti n g t h a t i s c o n v e n e d b y t h e
D IR C O G e n e r a l c a l le d t h e D G F w h e r e a ll t h e D D G ’s s i t w e s h a r e t h e
p r o g r a m s o f w o r k i n t e r m s o f w h a t i s g o i n g t o b e h a p p e n in g .

I f i t is

s o m e b o d y, a H e a d o f S t a t e fr o m E u r o p e w h o i s c o m in g , fo r e x a m p l e
t h e y w il l s a y to m e in t h e m e e t in g t h e D D G i n c h a r g e o f E u r o p e w i ll
t h e n r e p o r t t o th e D G F a n d s a y b y th e w a y w e h a v e a S t a te v is i t c o m in g
fr o m S p a in a n d t h e Pr e s id e n c y h a s c o n fi r me d a v a i la b il it y a n d s o h a s
20

t h e M i n i s te r, s o w e h a v e ju s t r e c e iv e d th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m t h e m
t h r o u g h t h e n o t e v e r b a le a n d w e a r e n o w g o i n g to b e s e n d i n g i t to t h e
C h i e f o f Pr o t o c o l s o th a t w e c a n s ta r t tr ig g e r i n g t h e a c ti o n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

S o t h e i n i t ia l n o t e v e r b a le

d o e s n o t c o m e t o m e , i t g o e s d ir e c t ly t o t h e D D G d e a li n g w it h t h e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
p r o g r a m a r e a a n d t h e n th a t is a c t u a l ly w h a t h a p p e n s a n d th e n a l l w e d o
o n o u r s i d e w i t h o u t th e n in t e r a c ti n g w i th t h a t m i s s i o n b e c a u s e o n c e
t h e y r e c e iv e th e r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e r e s p o n s ib l e D e p u t y D ir e c to r G e n e r a l
d e a li n g w i t h th e b r a n c h t h e n t h e y w ill s t a r t w r it i n g d ir e c tl y t o m e
b e c a u s e th e r e s p o n s e w ill s a y to th e m t h e M i n i s te r h a s c o n fir m e d th e
a v a i la b ili t y o f th e P r e s i d e n t fo r t h e d a te s t h a t h a v e b e e n r e q u e s t e d ,
p l e a s e s t a r t l i a is i n g w i th t h e C h i e f o f P r o to c o l o n L o g is t ic a l m a t t e r s a n d
t h e y w il l p u t m y c o n t a c t d e t a ils a n d a c c o r d i n g l y t h e m is s i o n t h e n w i ll
s t a r t li a is i n g w i th u s i n s e n d i n g t h e n o t e v e r b a le r e q u e s t a n d t h e f li g h t
10

c le a r a n c e , a n d I w o u ld li k e t o a l s o c la r i fy s o m e t h i n g , m a y b e to
d e m y s t i fy o n e m i n o r i s s u e a b o u t t h e n o te v e r b a le , t h e n o t e v e r b a le t h e y
w i ll s e n d t o u s w il l c o n t a i n a l l t h e d e t a i ls a s w a s e a r l ie r i n d ic a t e d b y
b o t h t h e o ff ic i a l fr o m D T I , M a t ji la , n o t th e o n e w h o w a s t e s ti fy i n g to d a y
b u t th e o n e o n Th u r s d a y, a s w e l l a s G e n e r a l N t s h is i fr o m D e f e n c e . T h e
d e t a i ls o f w h a t s i z e o f a fl i g h t is th a t , h o w m a n y p e o p l e o n b o a r d , w h o
is h e a d o f t h e d e l e g a ti o n e tc e te r a , s o w e d o n o t o u r s e lv e s i n P r o t o c o l
d r a w u p th e n o t e v e r b a l e , w e f o r w a r d t h a t n o t e v e r b a le t h a t w e w i ll
h a v e r e c e iv e d a n d s a y p l e a s e fi n d a t t a c h e d a n o t e v e r b a l e th a t h a s
b e e n s e n t e tc e t e r a , e t c e t e r a .

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , n o I d o n o t r e c a l l a n y o n e s a y i n g t h a t

D IR C O d o e s d r a w i t , o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g i s e x a c tly th e w a y y o u p u t i t ,
D IR C O d o e s n o t d r a w i t b u t i t r e c e i v e s i t .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Ja, I was just clarifying

b e c a u s e w h e n I w a s s it t in g o n W e d n e s d a y i n t h e r e s p o n s e s I h e a r d a
r e s p o n s e s a y i n g t h e r e w il l b e a n o t e v e r b a l e c o m i n g fr o m D I R C O s o I

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
w a s tr y in g t o c la r i fy i t th a t y e s t h e r e w il l b e a n o te v e r b a le f o r w a r d e d
b y D I R C O b u t n o t e m a n a ti n g fr o m D I R C O a s t h e w r i te r o f t h e n o t e
verbale.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A lr i g h t , n o w le t u s j u s t ta k e t h is o n e s t e p

a t a t i m e . Yo u h a v e j u s t g iv e n a n a n s w e r t h a t t h e D G w o u l d k n o w t h a t
t h e r e i s a r e q u e s t c o m i n g fr o m a fo r e ig n c o u n tr y a n d t h e n th e D G th e n
w i ll b r i n g t h a t p a r ti c u l a r D G w il l b r in g th a t t o y o u r a tt e n ti o n ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

N o I s a i d th e D D G .

The DDG.

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

W h o d e a ls w i t h t h e

p a r t ic u l a r b r a n c h , s a y i n th is i n s t a n c e i t w i ll b e A s i a a n d t h e M i d d l e
E a s t s o t h e D D G w i ll t h e n r e p o r t i n t h e m e e ti n g o f t h e D G F t h a t t h e r e is
g o i n g t o b e t h i s S t a te v is i t . Ev e n if th e D D G f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n e i t h e r
is n o t a b le t o a t te n d t h e D G F b u t h is o ffi c e w ill a t l e a s t c o n v e y t o t h e
o ffic e o f th e t h e C h i e f o f S ta t e Pr o to c o l t h a t p l e a s e n o t e t h a t t h e D D G
a s k e d u s t o i n fo r m y o u t h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t h a s a g r e e d to t h e f o l l o w in g
d a y s e t c e t e r a , e tc e t e r a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A lr i g h t, o k a y l e t u s t a lk a b o u t t h is

in c i d e n t t h e n . W e k n o w th a t th e r e w a s n o H e a d o f S t a t e c o m i n g , is t h a t
20

correct?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I would – now yes I do.

N o w y o u k n o w.

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ja.

O k a y n o w a t th e ti m e w h a t w a s y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f in r e s p e c t o f w h o m w a s t h e r e q u e s t b e i n g m a d e ?

Page 88 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
AMBASSADOR

VUSI

BRUCE

K O L O A N E:

When

the

H ig h

C o m m i s s i o n e r, a s I in d ic a te d e a r l ie r th a t m y fir s t ti m e t o h e a r a b o u t i t
w a s w h e n t h e H ig h C o m m i s s io n e r o f I n d i a c a ll e d m e a n d I w a s n o t i n
t h e o ffic e w h e n h e c a l le d .

H e s a i d t o m e w e h a v e s u b m i t t e d a fli g h t

c le a r a n c e r e q u e s t f o r a M i n is te r i a l d e le g a t io n c o m i n g fr o m I n d ia b u t w e
h a v e n o t h a d a r e s p o n s e , s o t h a t w a s f o r m e , t h a t is w h y I t o o k i t t h a t i t
is a M i n i s t e r ia l r e s p o n s e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , n o , n o b u t t h e n th e r e is n o m e n t io n

o f a H e a d o f S t a te t h e r e is i t ?
10

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

N o in o u r d i s c u s s io n h e d i d

n o t m e n ti o n a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h e H e a d o f S t a te .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , s o a t t h a t ti m e w h e n t h e n t h e

r e q u e s t , w h e n th is w a s b r o u g h t to y o u r a t t e n t io n b y th e H e a d o f S t a te
y o u k n e w th a t th e r e w a s n o H e a d o f S t a t e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h e H ig h C o m m i s s io n e r.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :
t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir.

B y t h e C o m m is s i o n e r, I b e g y o u r p a r d o n ,

O k a y, m a y I j u s t r e p e a t t h a t, w h e n th e H i g h

C o m m i s s i o n e r o f In d ia c a l le d y o u h e d i d n o t m e n ti o n th a t t h e r e w o u l d
b e a H e a d o f S t a t e i n r e s p e c t o f t h e r e q u e s t th a t h e w a s f o ll o w i n g u p
20

on.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o r r e c t.

Ye s . S o a t w h a t p o i n t , i f a n y p o i n t a t a ll ,

d i d y o u th e n g e t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a H e a d o f
S t a te ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Page 89 of 183

I t h in k d u r i n g t h e m e e ti n g I

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
h a d w it h N I C O C th e y i n d ic a te d t h a t i t w a s f ir s t t h e H e a d o f S t a t e a n d
t h e n i t w a s d o w n g r a d e d t o a M i n i s te r a n d t h e n fu r t h e r t o a n M E C
e q u iv a l e n t , b u t t h a t is in f o r m a t io n I h a d n o t b e e n p r iv y t o b e c a u s e t h e
r e q u e s t fo r s u c h a fl i g h t c le a r a n c e w a s s e n t d i r e c t ly to D e f e n c e a n d n o t
t o D I R C O , h e n c e I w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n p r i v y t o th a t i n fo r m a ti o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , s o t h e n t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r

c a l l e d y o u a n d s a y s lo o k t h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e d e la y s a n d w e k n o w t h a t
u s u a ll y th e s e t h i n g s a r e d o n e q u ic k l y, s o w h a t w a s th e fi r s t th i n g t h a t
y o u d id ?
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Th e fir s t t h i n g I d i d w a s t o

c a l l m y p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t a n d I s a i d t o h e r my d e a r I h a v e a c h a l l e n g e ,
I ju s t g o t a c a ll fr o m t h e H e a d C o m m i s s io n e r o f I n d i a c o m p la in i n g ,
b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h a t h e w a s d o i n g , c a n y o u p l e a s e fo ll o w u p w i th o u r
o ffic i a l w h o d e a ls w i th th e s e is s u e s t o f i n d o u t w h a t is t h e b o t t le n e c k .
A t t h a t t i m e I w a s u n d e r t h e a s s u m p ti o n t h a t th e I n d ia n H ig h
C o m m i s s i o n h a d s u b m i tt e d a l l t h e d o c u m e n ts t h r o u g h D IR C O , h e n c e m y
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o m y PA t o c o n t a c t th e g e n tl e m a n b y t h e n a m e o f M r
M a t jil a , w h o w o r k s fo r D I R C O .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s , s o t h e n y o u s a i d lo o k i n t o t h is , y o u

s a y t o y o u r PA l o o k i n to t h i s , t h a t is M s M o r r is , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t , it is M s

M o r r is .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Is t h a t M s M o r r is ?

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ja.

S o y o u s a y t o h e r l o o k in t o t h is t h in g ,

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t h e r e i s a c o m p l a in t fr o m t h e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r, In d i a , t h e y s a y th e r e
is a b o t t le n e c k .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

I d id n o t s a y b o t t le n e c k I

ju s t s a id . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Fi n d o u t w h e r e th e b o t tl e n e c k i s ?

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Maybe can I rephrase and

s t a te i t a s I a m tr y in g t o e x p r e s s i t?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:
10

I s a id t o h e r I r e c e iv e d a

c a l l fr o m th e I n d ia n H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r c o m p la i n i n g t h a t t h e y h a v e fi le d
a n a p p lic a ti o n f o r f li g h t c l e a r a n c e , w h i c h o n a v e r a g e ta k e s t w o t o t h r e e
d a y s b e c a u s e a f e w m o n t h s e a r li e r t h e y h a d h a d a v i s i t , a S t a t e v i s i t ,
but this

h a s t a k e n o v e r s ix d a y s a n d h e n c e h e is e d g y a n d w a n ts t o

fi n d o u t w h a t is t h e c a u s e o f t h e d e la y w i t h t h e p r o c e s s i n g o f t h e
a p p lic a ti o n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , s o a t t h a t p o i n t t h e n w h e n H ig h

C o m m i s s i o n e r c a l le d y o u , y o u a ls o h a d n o i d e a o f w h a t h e w a s t a lk i n g
a b o u t?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
20

C o r r e c t , I d id n o t h a v e a n y

id e a , t h a t w a s th e fir s t t i m e th a t I h e a r d a b o u t t h e v is i t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d , t h e in f o r m a t io n y o u g o t f r o m
t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r w a s th a t i t w a s a M i n is t e r ia l v is i t o r t h e r e w e r e
g o i n g t o b e M in is t e r s o n t h e a ir c r a f t?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Page 91 of 183

C o r r e c t Mr C h a ir p e r s o n , h e

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
ju s t s a i d t o m e th e r e a r e M i n is te r s w h o a r e c o m i n g , I t h i n k h e s a id s ix
o r e i g h t a n d t h a t t h e y s u b m i t t e d a n a p p l ic a ti o n , it is m o r e t h a n s ix d a y s
but they have not had a response.
CHAIRPERSON:
D IR C O

be

Ye s , o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w o u l d y o u r o ff ic e o r

in v o lv e d

in

anything

r e la t i n g

to

f li g h t c l e a r a n c e s

in

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e a n a i r c r a f t m i g h t h a v e m i n is t e r s fr o m a n o th e r
c o u n tr y w h o a r e n o t c o m i n g i n t o th e c o u n t r y o n o ffi c i a l b u s i n e s s , w o u l d
D IR C O o r y o u r o ff ic e b e i n v o l v e d n o r m a l ly in s u c h a c a s e ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
10

I t h i n k t h a t w i ll d e p e n d o n

t h e w h a t th e y c a l l th e t h r e a t a s s e s s m e n t t h a t w o u l d b e c o n d u c t e d b y
t h e s e c u r i ty, b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s t h e m i n i s t e r s c o m e f o r p u r e ly p r iv a te
v is it s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

But because of the threat

le v e ls i t m a y b e d e e m e d to b e t o o h ig h t h e n D I R C O m a y g e t i n v o l v e d i n
f a c i li t a ti n g t h a t t h e y g e t p r o t e c t o r s a n d t h i n g s li k e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , b u t i f t h e r e is n o s u g g e s ti o n o f a n y th r e a ts
a n d i t is ju s t t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o m e e t a n y g o v e r n m e n t o ff ic ia l o r
m i n is t e r s o r a n y b o d y, i t i s r e a ll y a p r iv a te v is it w o u l d y o u r o ffic e b e i n g
20

D IR C O b e i n v o lv e d , w o u l d D I R C O b e i n v o l v e d a t a l l?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

A t t h e r e q u e s t s ta g e Mr

C h a ir y e s b e c a u s e i f t h e y s e n d th e r e q u e s t , i f fo r e x a m p l e t h e I n d i a n
H i g h C o m m is s i o n s e n d s a r e q u e s t a n d s a y s – a n d t h e y a r e a p p l y i n g f o r
in th e n o t e v e r b a le f o r m a t c o m p ly i n g w i t h t h e p r o c e d u r e b u t s ti p u l a ti n g
in t h e n o t e v e r b a le t h a t t h is i s a p r i v a t e v is it , p e o p l e c o m i n g fo r a

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
p r i v a t e v i s i t b u t i t is m in is t e r s c a n y o u r e q u e s t d e fe n c e th a t y o u c a n
la n d a t W a t e r k l o o f . W e d o n o t h a v e t h e l e g a l m a n d a t e a s D I R C O to s a y
s o r r y y o u c a n n o t l a n d , y e s y o u c a n , th a t is t h e p r i n c i p a l d o m a i n o f
D e f e n c e , s o w e a s D IR C O w o u ld b e l ik e a p o s t o ff ic e t h a t w il l ta k e a n d
p a s s it o n t o D e f e n c e a n d th e n i f D e fe n c e s a y s y e s t h e y s a y y e s i f t h e y
s a y n o th e y n o , a n d t h a t is h o w – th a t is t h e n a t u r e a n d th e li m i t o f o u r
in v o lv e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o t o s o m e e x te n t w h e t h e r t h e e m b a s s y o ffic e o f
t h e r e le v a n t c o u n tr y m a k e s s u c h a r e q u e s t i s a f a c t o r t o b e t a k e n i n to
10

a c c o u n t b u t i f i t d o e s m a k e s u c h a r e q u e s t e v e n w i t h a p r i v a t e v is i t
y o u r s is j u s t to p a s s o n t h e r e q u e s t t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir, I c a n a c t u a l ly

p r o v i d e a n e x a m p l e to t h a t e ff e c t w h i c h m a y b e t h e C h a ir m a y a ls o w a n t
t o v e r i fy, th e m o t h e r o f th e K in g o f t h e e - S w a ti n i h a s l a n d e d o n a f e w
o c c a s i o n s a t W a t e r k l o o f o n a p r iv a t e m e d i a l v i s i t , c o m in g f o r p r i v a t e
m e d i c a l r e a s o n s , s o a l l w e d o is j u s t p r o c e s s a s t o w h a t c r i te r i a t h e y
u s e t o a l lo w h e r t o la n d o r n o t t o l a n d is f u n d a m e n ta ll y t h e
r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f D e f e n c e , s o o u r s is j u s t t o p r o c e s s a n d w e a r e l ik e a
p o s t o ff ic e , a c o n d u i t , i f o n e m a y u s e th e w o r d o f in t e r a c ti o n b e t w e e n
20

d i p l o m a t ic m is s i o n s a n d D e f e n c e w h e n it c o m e s t o r e q u e s ts o f l a n d i n g
a t Wa t e r k lo o f a n d I m e a n a s y o u – I a m s u r e th e C h a ir w il l a g r e e t h a t
t h e m o t h e r o f th e K in g o f t h e e - S w a ti n i i s n e i th e r a p u b l ic o ff ic e b e a r e r,
a p o l i ti c i a n o r H e a d o f S t a t e b u t I a m s a y i n g s h e h a s l a n d e d , n o t o n c e ,
a t Wa t e r k l o o f , b u t a g a i n i f y o u w e r e t o a s k m e C h a ir s i t ti n g h e r e w h a t
c r i t e r i a w a s u ti li s e d t o d e c id e t h a t s h e c a n la n d I w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o

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a n s w e r i t b e c a u s e lik e I s a id e a r l i e r th a t i s t h e p r i n c ip a l d o m a in o f t h e
Department of Defence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i s t h a t th e c a s e w h e t h e r i t is a S t a t e v is it , o ff ic ia l
v is it o r p r iv a te v is it , n a m e ly th e p e o p l e w h o m u s t d e c i d e i n th e e n d
w h e t h e r t h e y a l lo w t h e la n d i n g o f a n a ir c r a f t f a l li n g u n d e r t h o s e
c a t e g o r ie s is t h e D e f e n c e Fo r c e ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

C o r r e c t , i f t h e r e q u e s t is t o

la n d a t W a te r k l o o f C h a ir p e r s o n , b e c a u s e i t m a y b e th a t th e y a r e d o i n g
r e n o v a t io n o f a r u n w a y, s o I w il l n o t h a v e t h a t k n o w l e d g e s i tt i n g in
10

D IR C O s o t h e y a r e o n ly p e o p le w h o c a n k n o w w h e t h e r a l l th e i r s y s te m s
u p t o d a t e , e v e r y th i n g is g o o d f o r th e m t o a c c e p t th e s i z e o f t h e a ir c r a f t
e tc e t e r a , s o w h i ls t D I R C O a n d t h e P r e s i d e n c y m a y a g r e e t o r e c e iv e a
p a r t ic u l a r H e a d o f S t a t e o n a p a r t ic u l a r d a t e b u t t h e d e c is i o n to la n d in
Wa t e r k l o o f w i ll n o t r e s i d e w i th t h e Pr e s id e n t o r t h e M i n is te r o f D IR C O
e i t h e r i t w il l d e p e n d o n t h e a v a il a b i li ty o f W a t e r k l o o f a n d th e o n l y
p e o p l e w h o w il l k n o w a b o u t t h e a v a i la b i li ty, t h e s i z e o f t h e a ir c r a f t
e tc e t e r a w ill b e t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e g iv e n t h a t m a n d a te c o n s ti t u t i o n a l ly,
w h ic h i s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

W o u l d t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t h a t if i t is a S t a t e v i s i t o r

o ffic i a l v i s i t D I R C O a n d y o u r o ff ic e w o u ld h a v e h a d c e r t a i n r o l e s t o p l a y
in o r d e r to m a k e s u r e th a t S o u th A f r ic a p l a y e d i ts r o l e i f t h a t v is i t
happens?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Ye s M r C h a i r p e r s o n a s w a s

e a r l ie r a ls o i n d ic a te d , i f it is a S t a te v is i t I w il l th e n a ls o c o o r d i n a t e a n
in t e r - d e p a r t m e n ta l m e e t i n g w h e r e i t ju s t . . . ( in t e r v e n ti o n )

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e S t a t e v is i t is o n ly o n e w h ic h in v o lv e s H e a d s
of States?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

It can be the head of State

o r th e D e p u t y H e a d o f S t a te a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

In s o m e – w h e th e r i t i s t h e

P r e s i d e n t o r th e P r i m e M i n i s t e r o r t h e K i n g d e p e n d in g o n t h e fo r m o f
g o v e r n a n c e i n a p a r tic u la r c o u n tr y.

In t h a t in s t a n c e I p e r s o n a ll y w il l

c a l l a m e e t i n g , a n i n t e r - d e p a r t m e n t a l m e e ti n g , w h i c h w il l i n c l u d e
10

a m o n g s t o th e r s S A P S , p a r ti c u l a r ly t h e p r e s i d e n t i a l p r o t e c ti o n s e r v ic e s
t e a m , I w i ll c a ll p e o p le f r o m m a y b e D T I i f t h e ( i n d is t in c t) w a s c o m i n g
w e w il l c a ll t h e m , b u t n o r m a l ly w e w i ll c a ll p e o p l e f r o m H o m e A ff a ir s ,
w e w i ll g e t p e o p l e w h o a r e d e a li n g fr o m t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e c t o r a s w e ll
w h o d e a l s w it h t h e is s u e s o f a c c r e d i t a ti o n t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e y w il l
a d d r e s s is s u e s r e la t e d to a c c r e d it a ti o n , t h a t t h e y w i ll a ls o m a k e s u r e
t h a t t h e y p u t t o g e t h e r a s e c u r i ty s t r a t e g y a n d p l a n i d e n t i fy i n g th e
r o u t e s b e c a u s e a s y o u w o r k o n th e p r o g r a m a n d w e k n o w w h ic h
m e e ti n g s a r e g o i n g t o b e t a k i n g p l a c e a n d w h e r e w e n e e d t o d e c i d e o n
t h e b e s t l o g i c a l r o u t e t o t a k e g iv e n th e tr a ffi c , w e t h e n g e t a ls o p e o p le

20

fr o m th e M e tr o P o li c e t o c o m e in b e c a u s e w e w il l a ls o r e q u e s t s o m e
e s c o r ts s o y e s w e g e t e x tr e m e l y i n v o lv e d b e c a u s e i t i s t h e – i t is a
H e a d o f S t a t e m e e ti n g t h a t is g o in g t o b e h a p p e n i n g b u t o n l y in a s f a r
a s d e a l in g w i th a n d o r g a n is i n g th e l o g is ti c s a n d n o t t h e s u b s ta n ti v e
c o m p o n e n t o f t h e v is i t b y t h e H e a d o f S t a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

S o th e n l e t u s

t a lk a b o u t t h e n y o u r s e c r e t a r y w o u l d h a v e m a d e e n q u ir ie s , w h a t d i d y o u
d is c o v e r, d i d s h e r e p o r t b a c k t o y o u a s t o w h a t s h e d is c o v e r e d ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Ye s s h e c a l l e d m e a n d s a i d

t h e g e n tl e m a n f r o m D T I d o e s n o t s e e m t o k n o w a n y t h i n g b e c a u s e t h e y
h a v e n o t s e n t a n y th i n g t o h i m , h e h a s n o t r e c e iv e d a n y t h i n g , a n d I
c a l l e d t h e A m b a s s a d o r, th e H e a d C o m m i s s i o n e r o f I n d i a I s a id t h e r e
d o e s n o t s e e m t o b e a n y t h i n g a n d h e s a i d o h b u t w e w e s e n t i t d ir e c t ly
t o D e f e n c e , a n d a g a i n I a s s u m e d li k e I s a i d e a r l ie r t h a t a fe w m o n t h s
10

e a r l ie r t h e y h a d h a d a S t a t e v is it t h a t th e y h a d s u b m i tt e d a l l
d o c u m e n t a ti o n a s p e r t h e p r e v i o u s e x e r c is e , a n d I t h e n a s k e d , b e c a u s e
I d i d n o t h a v e t h e n u m b e r, I d id n o t e v e n k n o w th e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n ,
I t h e n a s k e d t o b e g i v e n t h e n u m b e r a n d t h e n a m e s o th a t I c o u l d c a ll ,
lik e I d o a ls o c a l l o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts w h e n t h e r e a r e i s s u e s
t o m a k e e n q u ir i e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n w h o d i d y o u t h e n c a ll ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I c a l l e d is i t N ts h is i ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s , s o a t t h a t p o i n t w h e n y o u w e r e

c a l li n g Mr N ts h i s i y o u h a d n o t h a d s i g h t o f a n y d o c u m e n ta t io n ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I h a d n o t , I w a s j u s t a c ti n g

p u r e ly u n d e r t h e a s s u m p t i o n t h a t th e r e h a s b e e n t o t a l c o m p l i a n c e w i t h
t h e a d m i n i s t r a t iv e r e q u ir e m e n t s in te r ms o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t m u s t b e
s u b m i tt e d e tc e te r a , b e c a u s e a f e w m o n th s e a r li e r t h e y h a d h a d a v is it

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
o f t h e ir H e a d o f S t a te a n d th e y h a d c o m p l ie d fu ll y t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t
t h e y h a d b e e n g r a n t e d t h e f li g h t c l e a r a n c e t o l a n d a t W a t e r k l o o f .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , s o th e n w h a t d id y o u c o n v e y to

Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r N s h is i , a t t h e t i m e h e w a s a w a r r a n t o ff ic e r.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I t h e s a i d to h i m p l e a s e s i r

c a n y o u h e l d b e c a u s e t h i s H i g h C o m m is s i o n e r i s o n m y c a s e , c a n y o u
p l e a s e p r o c e s s t h i s a p p l ic a ti o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A t th a t p o i n t y o u h a d n o t h a d a n y

d o c u m e n t a ti o n w it h y o u , y o u h a d n o t h a d s ig h t o f a n y a p p l ic a t i o n ?
10

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I w a s o u t o f m y o ffic e ,

a l t h o u g h I c a n n o t , a s y o u w i ll i m a g i n e i t w a s m o r e t h a n s ix y e a r s a g o , I
c a n n o t r e c a ll e x a c t ly w h e r e I w a s b u t I w a s n o t i n t h e o ffic e s o I w a s
o n ly d e a li n g w i t h t h i s b y p h o n e , I h a d n o t s e e n a n y d o c u m e n t a ti o n
w h a ts o e v e r.
ADV

TH A N D I

NORMAN

SC:

Ye s ,

you

have

already

to ld

the

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t y o u h a v e n o p o w e r s o v e r d e f e n c e , I a m ju s t tr y i n g t o
u n d e r s t a n d t h e b a s i s u p o n w h ic h th e n w it h o u t a n y d o c u m e n ta t io n a t
y o u r d is p o s a l a t th e ti m e w o u l d y o u th e n h a v e t o a s k W a r r a n t O ff ic e
N ts h is i t o p r o c e s s t h e a p p l ic a ti o n , I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e b a s i s
20

u p o n w h ic h y o u d i d th a t?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

O k a y, a s I i n d ic a te d e a r l i e r

if a n E m b a s s y o f Si n g a p o r e c o m p l a i n s th a t t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o a r e
p a r k i n g r ig h t in f r o n t o f th e ir e m b a s s y w h e r e th e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e
p a r k i n g b e c a u s e a c c o r d in g to t h e Vi e n n a C o n v e n t io n p r o v is i o n s w e
n e e d to g iv e t h e m a t l e a s t t w o b a y s w h e r e th e y c a n p a r k th e ir o ffic ia ls

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
cars.

I f th e y c o m p la in th a t t h e r e a r e p e o p l e p a r k i n g a l l t h e ti m e

b e c a u s e t h e y a r e n o t d e m a r c a t e d I c a ll th e D i p lo m a t ic P o l ic e , a l t h o u g h
I d o n o t h a v e p o w e r f o r d e c is io n m a k in g b u t I c a ll t h e m a n d I s a y
p l e a s e c a n y o u a tt e n d t o t h is p r o b l e m b e c a u s e i t i s g o i n g to c r e a t e
u n n e c e s s a r y d i p l o m a ti c t e n s io n s s i n c e m y r e s p o n s i b il it y i s t o e n s u r e
t h a t w e h a v e c o r d i a l r e l a ti o n s a n d I a m t h e c o n d u i t , a n d i n f a c t w h e n
t h e y a r r iv e a n d I r e c e iv e t h e m b e f o r e t h e y g e t th e ir c r e d e n ti a ls I
e x p l a i n th a t i f y o u h a v e a n y p r o b l e m w h a t s o e v e r, ir r e s p e c tiv e o f w h ic h
d e p a r t m e n t p r o t o c o l d ic t a t e s t h a t y o u c o m e t h r o u g h m e a n d I w il l
10

f a c i li t a te t h a t y o u h a v e s o m e b o d y a t t e n d in g t o th e m a t t e r. E q u a l ly w i th
c a l li n g D e fe n c e I u n d e r s t a n d fu ll y t h a t I d o n o t h a v e a u th o r it y o v e r
o ffic i a ls w o r k i n g f o r D e f e n c e b u t t o r e q u e s t t h a t t h e p r o c e s s s h o u ld n o t
b e a n is s u e b e c a u s e a l l I a m s a y in g is p r o c e s s , I a m n o t s a y in g is s u e
o r n o t , p r o c e s s i n g is c a n y o u a d d r e s s o r a t te n d t o t h is b u s i n e s s
b e c a u s e i t is c r e a t i n g u n n e c e s s a r y p r o b l e m s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , w h a t d i d Wa r r a n t O ff ic e N ts h is i s a y to
y o u w h e n y o u s a i d to h i m p l e a s e p r o c e s s t h is a p p li c a t io n ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

20

I th in k w h e n . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )

I a m s o r r y, m a y b e l e t u s s t a r t w i t h th e q u e s t io n

w h e t h e r w h e n y o u p h o n e d h i m h e w a s a w a r e o f t h e a p p lic a ti o n a s a t
t h a t ti m e a s f a r a s y o u r e c a l l? O r w a s h e h e a r in g a b o u t i t fo r t h e fir s t
ti m e fr o m y o u ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
a w a r e o f t h e a p p li c a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 98 of 183

N o I t h in k h e a lr e a d y w a s

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h a t is th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t I

get.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So, yes.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n , s o t h e n w h a t d id
h e s a y t o y o u t h e n , i f h e w a s a w a r e o r th e i m p r e s s i o n y o u g o t w a s t h a t
h e w a s a w a r e o f t h e a p p l ic a t i o n , a n d y o u s a i d t o h i m p le a s e p r o c e s s i t ,
w h a t w a s h is r e s p o n s e ?
10

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

A lt h o u g h I c a n n o t a c c u r a te ly

r e c o u n t t h e w o r d s v e r b a ti m b u t I t h i n k h e s a i d s o m e t h i n g t o t h e e ffe c t
t h a t I t h in k t h e r e w a s n o t e v e r b a le a t ta c h e d o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t fo r
h i m t o b e a b l e to e n q u ir e i n t o a l l th e n e c e s s a r y p r o c e s s i n g t h a t is
n e c e s s a r y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t w a s t h e d i s c u s s i o n

among the two of you?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Al t h o u g h I d o n o t r e c a l l li k e

I s a i d e v e r y s i n g l e th i n g w e d is c u s s e d b u t a ll I r e m e m b e r s a y i n g ,
b e c a u s e i t w a s s ta n d a r d a p p r o a c h I u s e d w i t h e v e r y b o d y, ir r e s p e c ti v e
20

o f g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t , I w o u ld s a y t o t h e m i f t h e r e is a n i s s u e w i t h
t h e a p p lic a ti o n r e v e r t b a c k t o th e e m b a s s y, t h e H ig h C o m m i s s i o n , s o
t h e y k n o w w h a t t h e is s u e i s b e c a u s e k e e p q u i e t fo r s ix d a y s is j u s t n o t
y o u k n o w h e a l t h y f o r o u r s t a n d i n g i n te r ms o f th e s e c o u n tr ie s m u s t l o o k
at us.
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Ye s .

I n th e e n d w h a t w a s t h e

Page 99 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
u n d e r s t a n d in g b e t w e e n y o u n o w a n d M a j o r N t s h is i?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I am not sure I understand

what you mean.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

In the understanding you had made the

c a l l t o h i m t o p r o c e s s it , d id h e r e p o r t b a c k t o y o u th a t n o w w e h a v e
p r o c e s s e d i t?
CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe before that.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e y o u c a n j u s t t e ll m e th e fu ll c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t
10

w a s – t h a t t h e t w o o f y o u h a d a c c e p t in g t h a t it is q u i te s o m e t i m e b a c k
t h a t t h is h a p p e n e d b u t a ls o a c c e p t in g t h a t y o u h a v e h a d a c c e s s t o
d o c u m e n ts a n d r e p o r t s I t h i n k o f w h a t d i f f e r e n t p e o p l e m a y b e s a y i n g
h a p p e n e d a n d I a s s u m e e v e n w i t h r e g a r d t o Mr N t is h s i ’s o w n v e r s i o n i f
y o u c a n j u s t t e l l m e t h i s is m y r e c o ll e c t i o n o f w h a t tr a n s p ir e d d u r in g
t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Correct.

Ac c o r d i n g to m y

r e c o l l e c ti o n C h a ir a s I i n d ic a te d e a r li e r m i n e w a s to s a y t o h i m p l e a s e
c a n y o u m a k e s u r e y o u p r o c e s s – e x p e d i te p r o c e s s i n g th e F li g h t
Clearance
20

A p p l ic a ti o n

Commission.

you

have

received

fr o m

the

Indian

High

A n d a g a i n I w a n t t o s tr e s s t h e w o r d p r o c e s s i n g th e

a p p lic a ti o n . A n d h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e d o c u m e n ts m is s i n g a n d I
a s k e d w h ic h o n e s . H e s a id I t h i n k o n e o f t h e m is a n o t e v e r b a l e . A n d I
s a i d p l e a s e ju s t c h e c k e v e r y t h in g th a t is n o t in o r d e r a n d r e v e r t b a c k t o
t h e e m b a s s y r a th e r t h a n s i t ti n g fo r 6 d a y s a n d n o t g o i n g b a c k t o th e m
s o th a t y o u c a n – y o u c a n a d d r e s s th e m a tt e r. I t h i n k i n e s s e n c e t h a t

Page 100 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
w a s a c t u a ll y w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a n d I h a d a l s o – I t h i n k h e c a ll e d m y PA o r
m y PA c a l l e d h i m t h e r e a f t e r I a m n o t s u r e b u t m y PA – a n d a l s o I h a d
a s k e d my PA t o c o n v e y th e s a m e th i n g t h a t I a c t u a ll y w a n t t o s e e t h a t
t h is m a t t e r is p r o c e s s e d . A n d I ta k e n o t e o f t h e e m a il th a t my PA s e n t
w h ic h I t h i n k w a s e i t h e r a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g o n h e r s id e o r m a y b e a
f a il u r e o n m y s i d e t o p r e s e n t it t h e w a y t h a t s h e p u t i t u n d e r s ta n d i t
p r o p e r ly b e c a u s e th e e m a il s h e s e n t s u b s e q u e n t ly s a i d , A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e a p p r o v e s t h e is s u i n g o f t h e fl ig h t c le a r a n c e . O b v io u s ly I h a v e
g o t n o a u t h o r i ty C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I t h i n k i f y o u t h i n k a b o u t t h i s
10

t h e r e a r e c e r t a in t h i n g s t h a t m u s t b e m e t to b e a b l e to is s u e a fl ig h t
c le a r a n c e . O n e o f t h e m is t h a t y o u m u s t b e a b le t o h a v e a c c e s s t o c iv il
a v i a ti o n i n fo r m a ti o n o t h e r w is e i f a n y b o d y c a n ju s t is s u e th a t b o d i e s
w o u ld b e f a ll i n g fr o m th e s k ie s b e c a u s e p la n e s w il l b e c r a s h i n g . S o I
do not have access to that.

S o I c a n n o t is s u e i t b e c a u s e w h e n y o u

is s u e y o u h a v e t o is s u e c o o r d in a t e s , e tc e t e r a t h a t p e o p l e m u s t u ti lis e
w h e n t h e y t a k e o ff o r w h e n t h e y a r r i v e f o r l a n d i n g o r e v e n e n r o u t e
c o m i n g t o S o u t h A fr ic a . I d o n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n . I d o
n o t k n o w i f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e w o u l d b e h a v i n g a c e r e m o n y o r
a n e v e n t o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r d a y. I c a n n o t k n o w t h a t s o t h a t is w h y I s a y
20

it is e i th e r a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g o n h e r s id e o r m a y b e m y fa il u r e t o
e x p l a i n i t p r o p e r l y t o h e r b e c a u s e [ in d i s ti n c ty ] d is c u s s i o n w i t h h e r th a t
a l l I w a n t is t o s e e t h i s m a t te r b e i n g p r o c e s s e d w h ic h i s my
r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t is p r o c e s s e d .

A s to w h e t h e r t h e

a n s w e r is y e s w e is s u e o r n o I w i ll c o n v e y w h a t e v e r a n s w e r c o m e s
b e c a u s e I c a n n o t a n d a ls o p a r ti c u l a r l y g iv e n th a t o n e o f t h e m o s t

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
n o t o r io u s g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts f o r f o l l o w i n g p r o t o c o ls s tr i n g e n tl y is
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e . S o I w o u l d n o t. I m e a n I h a d b e e n d o i n g
t h is – th is w o r k o f fa c il i t a t i n g f li g h t c le a r a n c e th r o u g h my te a m o f
c o u r s e n o t d i r e c t ly m y s e l f f o r o v e r t w o a n d h a l f y e a r s a n d t h e r e f o r e I
w a s a li v e t o t h e r e a l i ti e s in t e r m s o f p r o c e d u r e s a n d p r o c e s s e s t h a t I
h a d n o l e g a l m a n d a t e w h a ts o e v e r to d ic t a t e to a n y g o v e r n m e n t
d e p a r t m e n t. E v e n w h e n w e h a d a n i n t e r - d e p a r t m e n ta l m e e ti n g I c o u l d
n o t d ic t a t e t o t h e p o l ic e a l t h o u g h I w a s t h e C h a ir o f th e m e e ti n g I w i ll
s a y t o t h e m , y o u k n o w y o u h a v e a r o l e to p l a y t o p r o v id e s e c u r i ty, w h a t
10

is y o u r p la n ? H a v e y o u id e n ti fi e d p e o p l e ? W h o a r e t h e n a m e s s o w e
c a n p u t th e m o n t h e lis t ?

B u t I d i d n o t e v e r g iv e m y s e l f p o w e r th a t I

n e v e r h a v e b e c a u s e I k n e w m y li m i t a ti o n s i n te r ms o f th e s t a t u t e s a n d
t h e r e is n o w a y I w i ll h a v e a c t u a l ly g iv e n i n s tr u c t io n th a t I o r d e r a n
o ffic i a l f r o m a n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t t o is s u e w h e n a l s o th e r e a r e – t h e r e
a r e p r o c e s s e s h o r iz o n ta l p r o c e s s e s in t h a t d e p a r t m e n t t h a t m u s t b e
f o ll o w e d . S o – a n d f u r t h e r m o r e I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o s t a t e f o r th e r e c o r d
a s w e ll C h a i r t h a t I e v e n f u r t h e r s a id t o m y PA , p l e a s e m a k e s u r e t h a t
t h e f o l l o w i n g p e o p l e a r e a ls o c o p i e s s o t h a t b e c a u s e I a m i n a m e e ti n g
t h e y c a n a l s o f o ll o w u p .
20

A n d th e D ir e c t o r o f S t a t e v is i ts t h a t w a s

r e fe r r e d to e a r l ie r o n W e d n e s d a y M s – o r T h u r s d a y Ms G r a c e M a s o n
y o u w i ll n o t e is c o p ie d o n t h a t e m a i l a n d s o m e b o d y a s w e l l I th in k M s
S a lly. T h e r e a r e t w o p e o p le c o p ie s w h o w a s s e n i o r m a n a g e r s . S o i f I
w a s o f a n a g e n d a t o d o s o m e t h i n g d u b i o u s w h y w il l I s a y l e t u s c o p y
s o m e s e n io r m a n a g e r s w i th in p r o t o c o l w h o k n o w e x a c tl y p r o c e s s e s
m u s t b e f o l l o w e d . I t h i n k f o r m e t h e r e w a s p u r e ly a n is s u e o f e i t h e r I

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f a il t o g e t a c r o s s to h e r p r o p e r ly o r i t w a s e i th e r a n is s u e o f p u r e
m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o r r y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th e n i n y o u r i n t e r a c ti o n s w i t h W a r r a n t

O ff ic e r N t is h i s i d i d h e a s k y o u fo r a n y t h i n g i n w r i ti n g o r s o m e t h i n g i n
w r i t in g ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

No.

H e d id n o t a n d t h e n I

g o t a c a l l fr o m …
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y s h o u l d w e n o t g o t o t h a t l e t te r f r o m t h e

PA ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d o y o u w a n t t o d e a l w it h th a t l a te r ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o I w a n t e d – I c a n g o to i t C h a ir i t is a t
p a g e 1 9 9 o f E x h i b i t F F – a t p a g e 1 9 9 E x h i b i t F F 4 . A m b a s s a d o r y o u w ill
fi n d i t is t h a t b i g l e v e r a r c h fi le n e x t t o y o u .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: FF4?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u ld y o u j u s t l o o k a t th e s p i n e o f
t h a t – is t h a t F F 4 ?
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y p a g e 1 9 9 ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Page 199 yes.

fr o m – w e h a v e o n li n e 8 – o k a y.

Thank you.

I t w i ll s t a r t

Ye s t h i s is fr o m – y o u h a v e a lr e a d y

id e n t i fi e d M s M o r r is is y o u r s e c r e t a r y a t p a g e 1 9 9 a n d t h a t is d a t e d t h e

Page 103 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
9 April 2013.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u m e n ti o n e d s o m e b o d y w h o h a d
been copied there?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s c c M s M a s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Ms M a s o n w a s t h e D ir e c t o r

o f S t a t e Vis i t w h o w o u l d b e t h e p e r s o n i n th e e v e n t o f a M i n i s te r
c o m i n g w h o w i ll th e n a p p o in t p r o t o c o l o ffic e r s th a t w il l t a k e c a r e o f t h a t
10

b u s i n e s s . M s S a ll y R a m o k g o p a w a s m y D e p u ty C h i e f o f S t a t e P r o t o c o l
at the time.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

And then what does Ms Morris

c o n v e y to t h e s e p e o p le ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A s I s t a t e d e a r l ie r s h e s a y s :
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n r e a d t h e le t t e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: The email.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: It says:
“ A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e h a s te le p h o n ic a l ly a p p r o v e d
20

the request.”
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e is w r i t in g t o :
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : H e is w r i t in g to W il li a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M r W ill i a m M a tj il a ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : W il li a m M a t ji la .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t d o e s h e s a y in t h e e m a il ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I repeat she says:
“ A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e h a s te le p h o n ic a l ly a p p r o v e d
the request.”
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o , n o t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g e ls e t h e r e .
C o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d t h e e n t ir e e m a il p l e a s e ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Oh.
“ A s p e r y o u r d is c u s s i o n w i t h A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e
w i t h r e g a r d to t h e r e q u e s t f o r fl i g h t c le a r a n c e a n d
la n d i n g a t W a te r k l o o f A F B f o r t h e In d ia n d e l e g a ti o n .

10

K i n d ly n o t e t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e t e l e p h o n ic a l ly
approves the request.”
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o w i f h e – if s h e s a y s A m b a s s a d o r

K o lo a n e h a s te l e p h o n ic a l ly a p p r o v e d t h e r e q u e s t , w h a t r e q u e s t w o u l d
that be?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A g a i n li k e I s ta t e d I o n l y s a id
t h a t I w a n t – I a u th o r is e t h a t th e y f o ll o w u p t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h i s
20

w h o le a p p l ic a t i o n is p r o c e s s e d b u t th a t i s w h y I a m s a y in g i t e i t h e r
m u s t h a v e b e e n a m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o n h e r s i d e b e c a u s e I a m n o t th e
o n e w h o d r a f te d th e e m a il b u t t h e o r d e r s o r t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s I c o u l d o n ly
g iv e – g iv e t h e m a m a n d a te i s t o s a y to th e m c a n y o u p l e a s e fo ll o w u p
a n d c h e c k is h a p p e n i n g o r c a n y o u p u s h t h a t t h e y p r o c e s s t h is t h in g s o
w e c a n g i v e th e r e s p o n s e ir r e s p e c tiv e o f w h a t t h e o u t c o m e o f t h e

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p e r s o n w i ll b e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w l e t u s t a k e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e l e t
u s s a y i t is a h e a d o f s ta t e fr o m a n o t h e r c o u n tr y w h o h a s a p p l ie d o r
requested to land alright.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h a t r e q u e s t is s e n t to D IR C O .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th e r e i s n o t h i n g w r o n g a b o u t i t a n d y o u a s
D IR C O a ll th e p r o c e s s e s t h a t y o u s a id y o u fo ll o w y o u w o u l d h a v e
10

f o ll o w e d a n d y o u q u i t e c o m f o r ta b l e .

Yo u h a v e c h e c k e d w it h th e

P r e s i d e n c y a s y o u w o u l d s a y, y o u c h e c k e d w i t h t h e M i n i s t e r a n d y o u
c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t t h a t a ir c r a f t s h o u ld b e a l lo w e d b y d e fe n c e i f it is
d e f e n c e to la n d , w o u l d y o u i n t h o s e c i r c u m s t a n c e s s a y, D I R C O is
c o m f o r t a b l e a n d D I R C O a p p r o v e s t h e – o r – a p p r o v e s th e l a n d i n g ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

T h e a n s w e r is n o M a ’ a m .

L ik e I s a i d e a r l ie r D I R C O d o e s n o t h a v e a n y le g a l m a n d a t e w h a ts o e v e r
t o d e te r m in e w h e t h e r a n y fl i g h t c a n l a n d in Wa t e r k l o o f o r n o t . Al l w e d o
w e a r e l ik e a c o n d u i t , a f a c il it a t o r f o r p a s s i n g a p p lic a ti o n s t o d e fe n c e
a n d t h e n d e f e n c e w il l d e c i d e li k e I s a i d .
20

Because they could be

r e n o v a t in g t h e r u n w a y o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t s o D I R C O c a n n o t i n c l u d in g
t h e M i n is t e r o f D I R C O c a n n o t a u t h o r i s e t h a t t h e l e t – t h e p la n e l a n d i n
Wa t e r k l o o f .

A ll w e d o w e r e a l ly fa c i li t a t e th a t i n f o r m a ti o n b e m o v e d

fr o m t h e d i p l o m a t ic m is s i o n t o d e fe n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h e n d i d y o u d i s c o v e r f o r t h e fi r s t
ti m e t h a t y o u r s e c r e t a r y h a d s e n t t h i s l e tt e r – o r t h i s e m a il t o M r

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M a t jil a ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

I do not remember but it

m u s t h a v e b e e n q u i te s o m e ti m e l a te r. I d o n o t r e c a ll . I t h i n k i n fa c t I
m i g h t h a v e o n ly l e a r n t o f it w h e n t h e N I C O C i n v e s ti g a t i o n h a d s t a r te d i f
I r e m e m b e r w e ll .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n w h e n y o u t h e n d is c o v e r e d
t h a t t h e r e w a s t h is i n v e s ti g a t i o n a n d y o h n o w y o u s e c r e t a r y h a d is s u e d
s o m e t h i n g li k e t h i s w h a t s t e p s d i d y o u t a k e ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
10

I did not Ma’am because it

w a s p o s t th e l a n d i n g p h a s e a n d a l s o a s I w a s e a r l i e r i n d ic a te d b y
A m b a s s a d o r M a t ji la o n t h a t s a m e f o ll o w i n g d a y t h e M in is t e r h a d ta k e n a
d e c is i o n t h a t I b e s u s p e n d e d fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t s o t h a t I w i ll n o t
in t e r fe r e o r ta m p e r w it h p o t e n t i a l w i t n e s s e s . S o a n y d i r e c t e n g a g e m e n t
w i t h h e r w o u ld h a v e c o n s ti t u t e d i f y o u li k e ta m p e r i n g w it h e v i d e n c e .
A l b e i t I w a s n o t h a p p y w i t h t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h I w a s s u s p e n d e d
b e c a u s e in t e r m s o f t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e P r e s c r i p ts I s h o u l d h a v e b e e n
g iv e n s e v e n d a y s t o w r i te b a c k t o t e ll h e r w h y I d o n o t t h in k I s h o u l d b e
s u s p e n d e d a n d t h a t w a s n o t d o n e . A s y o u c a n s e e fr o m t h e l e t t e r th a t
A m b a s s a d o r M a tj il a s h o w e d e a r l ie r o f t h e 2 M a y i t w a s e x a c tly a d a y

20

a ft e r a n d t h e l e t t e r w a s g iv e n j u s t l ik e t h a t. A n d I d id in d ic a t e w h e n I
a c c e p te d th e le t t e r th a t o n ly b e c a u s e I w a n t t o c o o p e r a t e I w il l a c c e p t it
b u t I b e li e v e t h a t my r i g h ts h a v e b e e n v i o l a te d a g a i n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w l e t u s d e a l w i th t h a t – b e f o r e w e
d e a l w i t h th e r i g h ts i n s o fa r a s y o u r s u s p e n s io n is c o n c e r n e d I j u s t w a n t
t o u n d e r s t a n d – b e c a u s e f r o m – w h a t y o u h a v e to l d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n t h e

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v e r y f ir s t t i m e y o u g o t t o h e a r a b o u t i t is – i t is w h e n th is h i g h
c o m m i s s io n e r c a ll e d y o u a b o u t i t a n d y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d
in a n y t h i n g e ls e th a t w a s in t e n d e d to e it h e r f a c i li t a te t h is l a n d i n g o r i n
a n y w a y t h a t w o u l d b e s e e n t o b e y o u h a v in g t r i e d t o a s s i s t o th e r t h a n
t h e c a ll th a t y o u m a d e to W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N ts h i s i ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I a s s u m e w e a r e t a lk in g

a b o u t t h e r e q u e s t fo r t h e Mi n is t e r i a l p la n e f o r t h e a l l e g e d p l a n e
c a r r y i n g M i n is te r s th a t w a s r e q u e s t e d t o l a n d a t W a t e r k lo o f?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : N o n o th in g e ls e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o t h in g e l s e ?

O k a y. W h a t e ls e w o u ld I

be talking about?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I th in k i t i s fr o m t h e r e p o r ts i t
is c o m m o n k n o w l e d g e th a t I w a s in v i t e d to a m e e ti n g a t O R Ta m b o
I n t e r n a ti o n a l A i r p o r t w h e r e in t h e r e w a s t h e n fo r m e r M i n i s t e r B e n D ik o b e
M a r t in s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

And there was the CEO of

A C S A a n d my s e l f a n d th e r e w a s a M r G u p ta t h e r e a n d t h e y w a n te d to
20

r e q u e s t l a n d i n g a t O R Ta m b o I n t e r n a t io n a l Ai r p o r t .

S o th e M in is t e r

w a n t e d t o g e t a n a d v is o r y o p in io n fr o m b o t h t h e C E O o f A C S A a n d
m y s e l f b e c a u s e t h e y h a d a ls o r e q u e s t e d th e u s e o f t h e d i p lo m a t ic
lo u n g e a t O R Ta m b o a n d th e O R Ta m b o f a ll s u n d e r t h e m a n a g e m e n t
u n d e r th e C h i e f o f P r o t o c o l in – I m e a n t h e – t h e p r o to c o l l o u n g e a ls o
f a ll s u n d e r th e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e C h i e f o f S ta t e P r o t o c o l s o I h a d t o

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c o m e o n [i n d is t in c t] a d v i s o r y. A n d I d i d a d v is e i n t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t I d o
n o t t h i n k i t is g o in g t o b e v ia b l e , I d o n o t t h i n k it w i ll w o r k b e c a u s e it is
a ls o u s e d b y o u r o w n p r o t o c o l l e a d e r s h i p , o u r e x e c u tiv e s a s w e l l a s
d i p l o m a t ic m is s io n s s o t h e r e f o r e I a d v i s e d a g a i n s t th a t a n d s o d id t h e
C E O o f A C S A w h o a ls o e q u a ll y a d v i s e d a g a i n s t a r g u i n g if I r e m e m b e r
w e ll a l t h o u g h a g a in i t i s s o m e ti m e b a c k b u t I t h in k h i s a r g u m e n t
g r a v i t a te d t o w a r d s s a y i n g w e h a v e g o t r e g u la r c l ie n ts t h a t k e e p o u r
b u s i n e s s g o in g w e c a n n o t c h a s e t h e m a w a y o n l y t o a c c o m m o d a t e y o u
f o r a o n e o r tw o d a y e v e n t .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: A n d th e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t
s a i d I ta k e y o u r a d v i c e a n d h e a d v i s e d t h e m a c c o r d i n g ly t h a t s o r r y o n
t h e b a s is o f th is a d v ic e y o u c a n n o t la n d a t W a t e r k lo o f a n d w e t h e n
f u r th e r w e n t b e y o n d t h a t d u r i n g t h a t m e e ti n g t h e n r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t
they may want to contemplate

a p p r o a c h i n g p r iv a t e a ir p o r t s li k e

P il a n e s b e r g a n d w h a t is t h e o t h e r o n e c a ll e d ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Lanseria?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

L a n s e r ia a i r p o r t .

And with

t h a t th e m a t t e r w a s d e a d .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o t h e n w h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y y e s S ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n r e l a t i o n t o t h e c a ll y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e h i g h

c o m m i s s io n e r.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s Sir.

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CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t t a l k e d a b o u t .

W h i c h h a p p e n e d fir s t ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h e f ir s t m e e ti n g w a s th e

m e e ti n g th a t w a s c a ll e d b y t h e M i n is t e r B e n D i k o b e M a r t in s w h o w a s
t h e n M in is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

A n d t h e n i t w a s li k e t h e

m a t t e r d ie d f o r s o m e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

And I thought okay nobody

f o ll o w e d u p s o t h e m a t te r th e n m u s t h a v e b e e n s o r t e d o u t e i t h e r a t
P il a n s b e r g o r L a n s e r i a a s p e r t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n th a t w e h a d m a d e i n
t h e m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h a t h a p p e n e d b e f o r e y o u g o t a c a ll fr o m th e

high commissioner of India?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Correct.

T h e c a ll fr o m t h e

h i g h c o m m i s s i o n e r o f I n d i a C h a ir w a s m a d e to m e a f t e r t h e y h a d
a lr e a d y s u b m i t t e d t h e a p p li c a t io n to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: A n d d e fi n i t e l y lo n g a ft e r th e
m e e ti n g t h a t w e h a d h a d a t O R I n t e r n a t io n a l A ir p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, a lr i g h t .

N o w a t O R – a t t h e O R Ta m b o

m e e ti n g .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s Sir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e h a v e b e e n t o ld a b o u t a n u m b e r o f p e o p le w h o

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a tt e n d e d th e n Mi n is te r B e n M a r t i n s w a s t h e r e .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e th e r e ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: I think …
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: The CEO of ACSA.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: The CEO of ACSA.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
10

A n d M r G u p t a w a s a ls o

there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t M r To n y G u p t a w h o w a s t h e r e o r w a s i t a n o th e r
b r o t h e r o f t h e ir s ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I th in k i t w a s To n y G u p t a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To n y G u p t a .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A l th o u g h – a lt h o u g h I m i g h t
be mistaken.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . I ta k e i t th a t a t t h a t m e e ti n g M r G u p t a g a v e
f u ll in f o r m a t io n o f w h a t t h i s w a s a ll – t h i s tr i p o r t h i s v is i t , t h is la n d i n g
t h a t th e y w a n t e d a t O R Ta m b o w a s a b o u t ?

20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Chair I am not sure whether
f u ll in f o r m a t io n w i ll b e a p p r o p r ia t e b u t h e g a v e s o m e in f o r m a t io n
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : W h i c h I th i n k w a s c r i t ic a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: F o r th e M i n i s t e r t o c o n s u m e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
in o r d e r t o b e a b l e t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: A n d o n e o f th e th in g s h e d i d
s a y c a te g o r i c a ll y i s t h a t t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a w e d d i n g a n d t h a t t h e r e
w e r e g u e s ts th a t h e is e x p e c ti n g t o c o m e a n d s o m e o f th o s e g u e s t s w il l
b e M i n is t e r s a n d t h e r e m i g h t e v e n b e o n e o f t h e Vi c e P r e s i d e n ts
c o m i n g a n d t h a t is w h y h e w a s r e q u e s t in g th e u s e o f t h e Pr o t o c o l
Lounge.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

A n d t h a t is h o w t h a t p a r t

c a m e in .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y.

S o t h a t is t h e i n fo r m a ti o n th a t w a s

revealed.
1.

I t is a w e d d i n g – w e d d i n g .

2 . T h e r e w o u ld b e s o m e M in is t e r s o r m a y b e s o m e M in is t e r s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : H e a c t u a l ly s a i d th e r e w il l b e
s o m e M i n is t e r s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e s a id t h e r e w i ll b e s o m e M i n is t e r s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:
20

A n d t h e r e m a y b e a Vi c e

President.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e m ig h t b e a Vic e Pr e s i d e n t .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

A n d a ls o th a t th e y w o u l d

h a v e l ik e d t o g e t a n a r e a w h e r e t h e y c o u l d h a v e a c u l t u r a l p e r f o r m a n c e

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t o w e l c o m e a n d r e c e iv e t h e s e s p e c i a l – t h e s p e c i a l g u e s t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: As they were presented.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d th e c o n v e r s a t i o n a t t h a t
m e e ti n g w a s t h i s c u lt u r a l r e c e p t i o n o r w e l c o m e c e r e m o n y w a s i t
s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n o n t h e t a r m a c o f th e a ir p o r t n e a r w h e r e t h e a ir c r a f t
w o u ld h a v e l a n d e d o r i s t h a t a d e t a i l th a t y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I w o u ld n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t

le v e l o f d e t a i l b e c a u s e m y p r i n c ip a l f o c u s w a s o n t h e m a t t e r s d e a li n g
10

w i t h p r o t o c o l b u t I d o r e c a ll t h a t t h e C E O o f A C S A d i d s a y s o m e t h i n g
a n d a g a in I a m n o t q u o ti n g h i m v e r b a t i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

I w a n t to s tr e s s th a t b u t h e

d i d s a y s o m e t h in g a l o n g t h e l in e s o f – lo o k t h a t is a v e r y b u s y ti m e , w e
d e a li n g w i t h a lo t o f p r o c e s s i n g o f i m m i g r a ti o n e tc e t e r a s o w e c a n n o t
ju s t t a k e o u r r e g u l a r c l ie n ts t h a t c o m e t o u s a n d u s e t h is a ir p o r t e v e r y
d a y a n d p u t th e m a s i d e f o r y o u w h o a r e c o m in g f o r a o n e d a y e v e n t s o
it is g o in g to b e d is r u p t iv e a n d t h a t is w h y y o u c a n n o t s u p p o r t i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I s e e w e a r e t w o m i n u t e s o r s o p a s t o n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e g o in g t o t a k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t . W e

w o u ld n o r m a l ly t a k e a n h o u r s – a n h o u r l o n g l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t b u t
t h e r e i s s o m e u r g e n t c o m m i s s i o n b u s i n e s s t h a t I h a v e to a t te n d t o .

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I a m g o i n g t o a d j o u r n u n ti l t h r e e o ’ c l o c k t o a t te n d
t o t h a t u r g e n t c o m m i s s io n b u s i n e s s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t h r e e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed. Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

A m b a s s a d o r I w o u ld li k e t o

r e fe r y o u t o t h e E x h ib i t F F 1 w h ic h i s t h e E x h i b it t h a t c o n t a in s th e
s t a te m e n t o f M s S i n d a n e .

I t i s a s m a ll p r e s e n t a ti o n fi le .

Ye s th a n k

y o u . A n d I w o u l d l ik e t o d r a w y o u r a tt e n t io n to p a g e 1 0 . I t w o u l d b e
u n d e r th e s e c o n d d i v i d e r m a r k e d n u m b e r 2 . A r e y o u th e r e ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

T h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts

a r e r e c o r d e d t h e r e b u t w h a t I w o u ld lik e t o a s k fr o m y o u b e c a u s e t h a t is
20

a ls o r e c o r d e d in t h a t p a r a g r a p h i s w h e t h e r i t is c o r r e c t t h a t a t th e
m e e ti n g th a t y o u h e ld a t O R Ta m b o t o g e t h e r w i t h th e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s
– f o r m e r M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d Mr M a s e k o fr o m A C S A w h e t h e r i n – I
b e g y o u r p a r d o n M r To n y G u p t a w h e t h e r i t w a s m e n t i o n e d t h a t t h e
r e q u e s t th a t th e y w e r e m a k i n g a t th a t m e e ti n g w o u l d – t h e y w o u l d – t h e
a ir c r a f t o r w h o e v e r w o u l d h a v e M i n i s te r s o n b o a r d a n d fo u r o r fi v e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
M i n is t e r s o n b o a r d .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s i t w a s M a ’ a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . A n d th e n h a v in g r e c e i v e d t h e n t h e

c a l l fr o m t h e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r d i d y o u li n k t h e t w o in c i d e n ts t h a t
t h e r e w a s a ta lk b y Mr A t u l G u p ta o f f iv e M i n is t e r s a n d n o w y o u h a v e a
c a l l s o m e b o d y is s a y in g l o o k o u r r e q u e s t is t a k i n g l o n g fo r it to b e
processed?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

It h a p p e n e d a f e w m o n t h s

a p a r t a n d in i ti a l ly I d i d n o t p u t a n y l in k t o t h e t w o b u t w h e n th e a c t u a l
10

la n d i n g h a p p e n e d I w a s a c t u a lly in a p o s i t io n to s a y p r o b a b l y t h is m u s t
b e li n k e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o b e t w e e n t h e t i m e o f t h e l a n d in g
w h ic h s h o u l d h a v e b e e n o n t h e 3 0 A p r i l a n d t h i s m e e ti n g o f F e b r u a r y
2 0 1 3 y o u y o u r s e lf …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms Norman have you got your – do you not want to

s a y b e t w e e n t h e ti m e o f th a t m e e ti n g in F e b r u a r y a n d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s a n d th e … t h is is w h a t h a p p e n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e l a n d i n g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n t h is is w h a t

happens when I eat a lot during the lunch break.

S o r r y.

Thank you.

D u r i n g – y o u g o t th e c a l l fr o m t h e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r w o u l d y o u s a y
w h e n y o u g o t th a t c a ll fr o m th e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s i t a t t h e
b e g in n i n g o f A p r il o r j u s t a f e w d a y s b e fo r e th e l a n d i n g in A p r il ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

I d o n o t f u lly r e c a l l b u t I

k n o w t h a t i n th e r e c o r d s i t is t h e r e b u t I t h i n k i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll it w a s

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p r o b a b ly a w e e k o r tw o p r i o r t o t h e l a n d in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P r i o r to t h e l a n d i n g ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So…
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

B u t I m e a n t h e d a te s o f

c o u r s e a r e s o m e w h e r e in o n e o f t h e s e d o c u m e n t s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . A l r ig h t . S o t h e n w h e n y o u t h e n
c o n ta c t e d M a j o r N t s h is i a t t h a t t i m e w h e n y o u c o n ta c t e d M a j o r N t s h is i
d i d y o u a t a n y s t a g e g iv e h i m c e r t a i n d e t a i ls a b o u t w h o is i t t h a t w a s
10

g o i n g t o b e la n d i n g i n th e r e q u e s t t h a t y o u w e r e a s k in g t h e m t o
process?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : W h e n I in i ti a l ly c o n t a c t e d m y
o ffic e t o c o n ta c t M r M a tj il a t h e n M r M a t ji la s p o k e t o M r N ts h is i a n d t h e n
s u b s e q u e n t ly I s p o k e t o M r N ts h is i m y s e l f b u t I d o n o t r e c a l l w h e t h e r
there was too much detail in terms of who was going to be in that
b e c a u s e I w o u l d n o t h a v e k n o w n t h e i n f o r m a ti o n , t h e d e t a i ls o f w h o
w o u ld b e i n t h e – i n t h e p l a n e b e c a u s e t h e r e q u e s t fo r t h e f li g h t
c le a r a n c e w e n t d ir e c tly t o d e f e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

20

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Whereas if it came through

D IR C O t h e n w e w ill a c tu a l ly h a v e – w o u l d b e p r iv y to t h e l is t o f t h e
p e o p l e w h o w i ll b e o n b o a r d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h e n y o u c o n t a c t e d M r M a tj il a w h a t
did you talk to him about?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

A s I i n d ic a te d e a r l i e r I w a s

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
w o r r i e d a b o u t t h e fa c t t h a t I h a d r e c e i v e d a p h o n e c a ll fr o m t h e H i g h
C o m m i s s i o n e r o f In d i a w h o w a s c o m p l a i n i n g th a t t h e y h a d a p p l i e d fo r a
fl ig h t c le a r a n c e a n d n o r m a l ly w h il s t i t ta k e s t w o o r t h r e e d a y s i t h a s
t a k e n l o n g e r c a n I a s s is t . Th e n I c a ll e d t o s a y c a n t h e y p le a s e p r o c e s s
t h a t t h a t w a s w h a t I r e a lly w a n t e d th e m t o d o t o p r o c e s s t h a t a n d
w h e t h e r th e y w e r e g o i n g t o s a y w e a r e g r a n ti n g o r n o t g r a n t in g w a s n o t
in m y h a n d s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o b u t w e t a lk in g a b o u t M r M a tj il a n o w

fr o m y o u r d e p a r t m e n t .
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

I a l s o a s k e d Mr M a tj il a to

fr o m m y d e p a r t m e n t to a c t u a l ly f o l lo w u p a n d f i n d o u t w h a t i s th e b o t t le
n e c k th a t i s d e l a y in g t h e is s u i n g o r n o t is s u i n g o f th e fl ig h t c le a r a n c e .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Is i t p o s s i b le th a t i n y o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n

w i t h Mr N ts h i s i y o u m i g h t h a v e m e n t io n e d t h a t t h e r e w o u ld b e M i n is t e r s
on board?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I do not recall.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I do not recall at all.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. N o w.
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: But…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w o u l d …
AMBASSADOR

VUSI

BRUCE

KOLOANE:

Of

course

the

H ig h

C o m m i s s i o n e r h i m s e l f h a d i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e y h a v e s e n t a n a p p l ic a t i o n
f o r a M in is t e r – M i n i s t e r s w il l b e c o m i n g o n b o a r d t h a t p l a n e s o
a l t h o u g h I d o n o t r e c a ll th e r e is a r e m o t e p o s s i b i li ty th a t I m i g h t h a v e

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m e n ti o n e d i t b e c a u s e th e H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r d i d m e n t io n i t t o m e a s I
s a i d e a r l ie r o n i n t h e m o r n i n g s e s s i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w h y d o y o u s a y r e m o t e p o s s i b il i ty b e c a u s e t h a t
is w h a t y o u h a d b e e n t o ld a t l e a s t t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e M i n is t e r s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Ye s C h a i r I d o a g r e e t h a t I

h a d b e e n to l d b y t h e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r t h a t th e r e w ill b e M in is t e r s b u t
in t h e d i s c u s s io n s t h a t I h a d w i t h f o r e x a m p l e e v e r y b o d y e l s e I a m n o t –
I d o n o t r e c a l l th a t I m e n ti o n e d t h e n a m e M in is t e r s b u t I m ig h t h a v e
10

m e n ti o n e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I a c c e p t th a t . I a c c e p t th a t .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g

r e m o t e ly – t h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g t h e r e is a p o s s i b i li ty th a t I m i g h t
h a v e s a id t h a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a n o I a c c e p t th a t y o u s a y y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r

w h e t h e r y o u m e n t io n e d t h a t o r n o t b u t I w a s t h i n k i n g th a t i t m u s t b e
ju s t a s p o s s i b l e a s a n y t h i n g b e c a u s e th a t is t h e k n o w l e d g e y o u h a d
n a m e ly i n t e r m s o f w h a t y o u w e r e to l d - y o u h a d b e e n to ld u n le s s y o u r
k n o w l e d g e h a d c h a n g e d . Yo u h a d b e e n t o l d b y t h e …
20

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ig h C o m m i s s io n e r.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

Both –

w e ll y o u h a d b e e n

told by

C o m m i s s i o n e r in t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th y o u .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s C h a ir.

Page 118 of 183

the

High

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u h a d a ls o h e a r d fr o m o n e o f t h e G u p t a

b r o t h e r s i n th e m e e t in g th a t y o u h a d a t O R Ta m b o t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e
M i n is t e r s ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

B u t C h a ir I a m t r y i n g t o

d e li n k th is b e c a u s e i n m y v i e w t h e r e a r e t w o d e li n k e d p r o c e s s e s . Th e
o n e o f t h e G u p ta ’s m e n t io n i n g th e M in is t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

W a s a r e q u e s t m a d e in

F e b r u a r y t o la n d a t O R Ta m b o a ir p o r t t o a m e e t i n g th a t I w a s in v i t e d t o
10

b y th e M i n is t e r a s w e ll a s th e C E O o f A C S A .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

A n d w e d e c is i v e ly a d v i s e d

the Minister not to approve that they use that.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

And for me that was the

c h a p t e r c l o s e d b e c a u s e w e h a d d o n e t h a t a n d t h e M i n is t e r in o u r
p r e s e n c e a ls o i n fo r m e d t h e G u p t a ’s t h a t u n f o r t u n a t e ly w e c a n n o t h e l p
you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

S o t h a t i s w h y th e is s u e o f

t h e M i n i s t e r s t h a t t h e y a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e r e w a s d i ffe r e n t to t h e
n o t io n . T h e o n l y m e n t io n o f t h e M in is t e r s w h o w e r e r e q u e s t e d to la n d
a t t h e W a te r k l o o f A ir F o r c e B a s e w a s m e n t io n e d t o m e b y t h e H ig h
C o m m i s s i o n e r G u p ta .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o I t h i n k m e n t io n i n g o n e is g o o d e n o u g h . Yo u

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k n o w t h e o n e w h a t t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r s a i d t o y o u .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s Sir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o th e r o n e w a s j u s t a n e x tr a a n d w e c a n p u t th a t
a s i d e . S o w h a t I a m s a y in g is I a m r e a c t in g to y o u s a y i n g t h e r e is a
r e m o t e p o s s i b il it y t h a t y o u m a y h a v e s a i d – m e n t io n e d M i n is t e r s b u t I
a m w o n d e r in g w h y y o u s a y i t w a s – i t w o u l d b e a r e m o te p o s s i b i li ty. I
w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t y o u w o u l d s a y it is p o s s i b l e b e c a u s e th a t is w h a t I
w a s to l d . Yo u k n o w i t i s n o t lik e n e c e s s a r i ly r e m o te b u t i t c o u l d h a v e –
it is v e r y – i t i s p o s s i b l e .
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: W e ll m a y b e i f i t p l e a s e s t h e
C h a ir f o r m e to c l a r i fy lik e th a t . Ye s t h e r e is a p o s s i b i li ty th a t I m i g h t
h a v e s a id s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s th a n k y o u . B e c a u s e t h e y – fr o m – i n y o u r m i n d a t
t h a t s t a g e t h a t i s w h a t y o u w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a n a ir c r a f t t h a t y o u h a d
b e e n t o ld w o u l d h a v e M in is t e r s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

P l e a s e C h a ir b e a r w i th m e

b e c a u s e E n g l is h is n o t m y fir s t l a n g u a g e . S o m e ti m e s I f a i l t o e x p r e s s
20

m y s e l f a p p r o p r i a t e ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll – w e l l s o f a r I h a v e h a d s o m e b o d y w h o s p e a k s

E n g l is h v e r y e l o q u e n t ly.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Thank you.

a s a c o m p l i m e n t S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .

Page 120 of 183

I w il l ta k e t h a t

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n t in u e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d in f a c t i t w o u ld m a k e s e n s e t o

m e n ti o n t h a t t o M a j o r N ts h i s i b e c a u s e y o u w a n t t h e r e l a ti o n s b e t w e e n
S o u th A fr ic a a n d In d i a a s y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d n o t t o b e r e a ll y s p o il t b y
t h e s e d e l a y s . S o i t w o u ld m a k e s e n s e t o s a y, l o o k I a m t o l d t h a t th e r e
is g o i n g to b e M i n i s te r s c o m in g p l e a s e lo o k in t o th is p r o c e s s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Ye s M a ’ a m b u t a ls o I t h i n k

r e m e m b e r I t h i n k a ls o in t h e m o r n in g s e s s io n it w a s e x p l a i n e d t h a t t h e
10

p e r s o n w h o is t h e r e a l c u s t o d i a n o f s tr a t e g ic r e la t io n s b e tw e e n S o u t h
A fr ic a a n d t h e ir o w n c o u n t r i e s i s – w i ll h a v e b e e n i n th is c a s e th e
I n d ia n H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r. S o h e i s t h e o n e t h a t w e r e a ll y s e r v i c e th e
m o s t b u t l ik e I s a i d n o w w i th t h e a d v ic e fr o m t h e C h a ir t h e r e i s a
p o s s i b il it y t h a t I m i g h t h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h e w o r d – t h e f u r th e r – t h a t
t h e r e w e r e M i n i s t e r s w h o w e r e g o i n g to b e c o m i n g o n b o a r d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

A n d o t h e r th a n M r M a t ji la fr o m

D IR C O a n d M a jo r N ts h is i fr o m d e f e n c e d i d y o u m e n t io n – d id y o u s p e a k
t o a n y o t h e r p e r s o n fr o m d e f e n c e ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s I d i d .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d w h o is t h a t p e r s o n ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h e l a d y t h a t C o lo n e l

A n d e r s o n w h o u s e d t o w o r k a t t h e A ir Fo r c e B a s e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A t w h a t p o i n t d i d y o u s p e a k t o h e r ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I s p o k e t o h e r w h e n – I m e a n
o n a fe w o c c a s i o n s . F ir s t o f a ll li k e I s a i d I h a d b e e n i n t h e P o r t f o l io fo r

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
m o r e t h a n tw o a n d a h a l f y e a r s s o a s t h e C h i e f o f Pr o t o c o l a n d w e h a v e
h a d r e g u l a r i n t e r a c ti o n s a n d w e w e r e r e g u l a r l y i n c o n t a c t w i th e a c h
o th e r b e c a u s e o f w o r k r e la t e d i s s u e s .

Every time whenever we are

g o i n g to r e c e i v e is t h e r e a n y b o d y t h e r e s h e w a s o n a p o in t o f c a ll s o
t h e r e w a s r e g u la r i n te r a c t i o n s o I w o u ld n o t r e a lly – it is n o t li k e t h e r e
w i ll b e q u i e t n e s s f o r m o n t h s . S o t h e r e w e r e r e g u la r ly e n g a g e m e n t f o r
a l l o t h e r r e la t e d m a tt e r s t h a t a p p li e d to b o t h o u r p o r t f o l i o s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s b u t a b o u t t h i s i n c id e n t .

About the

c o m p la i n t s t h a t y o u h a d r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e H ig h C o m m i s s io n e r d i d y o u
10

speak to Colonel Anderson about it?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I d id m e n ti o n i t t o h e r I t h i n k
I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i n w h a t c o n te x t b u t I d i d m e n ti o n t h a t I a m
fr u s tr a te d b e c a u s e t h is A m b a s s a d o r is b u s y n a g g i n g m e a n d I a m n o t
sure where the process is.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Wa s t h is b e f o r e y o u s p o k e to M a j o r
N ts h is i o r w a s i t a f te r y o u h a d s p o k e n t o M a j o r N t s h is i?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

I th i n k i t w a s a r o u n d t h a t

ti m e w h e t h e r a f t e r o r b e f o r e I c a n n o t h a v e t h e a p p r o p r i a te r e c o l le c t i o n
b u t it w a s a r o u n d t h a t p e r io d w h e n I w a s – I h a d r e c e iv e d t h e c a l l a n d I
20

w a s tr y in g to e n s u r e w h a t is i t th a t i s t h e c h a ll e n g e s o t h a t t h e y w il l
p r o c e s s t h e is s u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u w o u l d h a v e a l s o m e n t io n e d t o h e r
t h a t lo o k I a m f r u s t r a t e d , A m b a s s a d o r s a y s t h e r e w il l b e m a n y s ta r s b u t
I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e t h e p r o c e s s is , w o u l d y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d th e
M i n is t e r s t o h e r ?

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : J a d e f in i te ly I w o u l d h a v e j a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u w o u l d h a v e ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d w h a t is it t h a t y o u w a n t e d h e r t o d o
a b o u t – a b o u t t h a t?
AMBASSADOR

VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

L ik e

I said

I cannot

r e m e m b e r th e c o n t e x t i n w h i c h t h e d is c u s s i o n h a p p e n e d w h e t h e r I
c a l l e d h e r o r s h e c a l le d m e b u t lik e I s a id w e w e r e r e g u l a r ly i n c o n ta c t
w i t h e a c h o t h e r s o I w o u l d n o t r e a l ly r e c a l l w h a t w a s t h e – l ik e w h o
10

in it i a t e d th e c o n ta c t w h e t h e r i t w a s m e w h o c a ll e d w h e n I m e n ti o n e d
t h a t o r i t w a s w h e n I h a d c a l le d th a t I h a d m e n ti o n e d th a t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

B u t w h a t I w o u l d li k e to k n o w

A m b a s s a d o r is w h a t i s i t t h a t y o u w a n te d h e r t o d o ? W e k n o w w h a t y o u
w a n t e d M a j o r N ts h is i t o d o ?

Yo u s a id y o u w a n te d t h e m t o – t o w o r k

on.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k – I th in k y o u m a y b e s p e a k i n g a t c r o s s

purposes.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w h a t h e i s s a y i n g – t h e p o i n t h e is m a k in g i s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t m a y h a v e b e e n C o l o n e l

Sanderson – Anderson.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Anderson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o c a l le d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e w o l d h a v e b e e n t h e o n e w h o w a n t e d s o m e th in g

fr o m h i m a n d t h e r e f o r e h e c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.

But he says he cannot

r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r h e i s th e o n e w h o c a ll e d .

S o I th i n k th a t i s t h e

d is t in c ti o n h e w a n ts .

B e c a u s e y o u r q u e s t io n s s a y s , w h a t d i d h e w a n t

fr o m h e r /
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I t h in k w h a t h e is s a y in g is I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r

whether …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e th e r I w a n te d s o m e t h i n g fr o m h e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m t h e o n e w h o c a l l e d i n w h ic h c a s e y o u a r e r i g h t t o
a s k m e w h a t I w a n te d h e r t o d o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h e t h e r s h e c a ll e d m e . In w h ic h c a s e s h e w o u l d
b e t h e o n e w h o w o u l d h a v e w a n te d s o m e t h in g fr o m m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r – A m b a s s a d o r is t h a t – is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g

correct…
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Of the point you wanted to make?
20

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C o r r e c t C h a ir b u t a ls o I t h i n k
t h e p o i n t I a m r e a l ly tr y i n g t o c l a r i f y i s th a t I a m a w a r e t h a t w e s p o k e a
lo t w i t h h e r a r o u n d t h e p e r i o d w h e n I w a s a ls o f o l lo w in g u p to e s t a b l is h
w h a t is t h e b o t tl e n e c k r e g a r d in g t h e is s u i n g o f t h e fli g h t c le a r a n c e . S o
I w o u l d n o t k n o w w h e th e r it w a s b e f o r e I s p o k e t o C o l o n e l N ts h is i o r it
was after but it was around that period because it has been quite a

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
lo n g t i m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: That has elapsed.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll a t l e a s t fr o m w h a t y o u s a y m a y b e i t d o e s c la r i fy
a t l e a s t in p a r t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S l ig h tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y a t s o m e s t a g e w h e n y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g to h e r
y o u s o u g h t t o e s t a b lis h w h a t w a s h o ld in g b a c k th e p r o c e s s in g o f t h e
10

a p p lic a ti o n b u t w h a t y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r is w h e t h e r i t w a s b e f o r e y o u
s p o k e t o M r N ts h is i o r a f t e r.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

W i t h h e r C h a ir I w a s

e x p r e s s in g m y fr u s tr a ti o n a t t h e f a c t t h a t I h a v e b e e n n a g g e d b y t h e
H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r o f I n d i a r e g a r d in g t h e n o n - is s u a n c e o f th e fl i g h t
c le a r a n c e a n d I w a s tr y i n g t o e s t a b li s h if s h e k n e w a t a ll w h a t – y o u
k n o w w h e r e t h e p r o c e s s w a s in a s f a r a s t h e [ in d i s ti n c t ] c o n c e r n e d .
W h e t h e r I a s k e d h e r b e fo r e o r a ft e r I h a d s p o k e n t o N ts h i s i I d o n o t
r e a l ly r e c a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is w h a t y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
20

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s Sir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . H o w l o n g d i d i t t a k e fo r t h is
is s u e t o b e r e s o l v e d ? D id it t a k e w e e k s , h o w lo n g d i d i t t a k e ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

I d o n o t r e a lly r e m e m b e r

M a ’a m . B u t I t h i n k w e c a n e s t a b li s h th a t b y c h e c k i n g t h e d a t e o n t h e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
fl ig h t c le a r a n c e b e c a u s e i t w il l g u i d e u s i n t e r m s o f w h e n i t w a s is s u e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t u s g o b a c k b e fo r e – le t u s g o b a c k t o y o u r

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N ts h i s i .

Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y t e s ti f ie d

a b o u t t h a t.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s Sir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a id w h a t t h e g is t o f t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n w a s .
A s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d d i d y o u c a p tu r e e v e r y th in g i m p o r t a n t i n
r e g a r d t o t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n ?
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s Si r I t h i n k I d id C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . y e s . A n d y o u w o u ld h a v e r e a d w h a t I t h i n k
is r e c o r d e d i n th e – i n t h e r e p o r t . I th in k Wa r r a n t O ffic e r N t s h is i i f I a m
n o t m i s t a k e n s a y s t h a t o n e o f t h in g s y o u s a i d w a s th a t N u m b e r 1 o r t h e
P r e s i d e n t w a s a w a r e o f th e – t h is r e q u e s t fo r a v i s i t a n d a s I
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is r e c o r d e d a n d I fo r n o w I l e a v e o u t w h a t M a j o r
N ts h is i s a i d w h e n h e w a s i n t h e w i t n e s s s ta n d b e c a u s e i t m a y b e
n e c e s s a r y t o r e c a ll h i m t o c l a r i fy c e r t a i n t h i n g s .

I s th e r e – is y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t th a t i s – th a t r e fe r e n c e t o N u m b e r 1 o r t h e P r e s i d e n t
d o e s r e la t e to t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n o r is i t a l a te r c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

C h a ir a s o f c o u r s e i n

a tt e m p t in g to r e s p o n d t o t h e q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Since of course there has

b e e n a b ig l e g o f ti m e b e tw e e n t h e i n c id e n t s th a t h a p p e n e d i n m y
r e c o l l e c ti o n I d o u b t t h a t I w o u ld h a v e a c t u a l ly u s e d t h a t w o r d a t a ll .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o le t u s t a k e i t s t e p b y s t e p . F o r n o w le t m e n o t
d e a l w it h w h a t y o u r v e r s i o n is .

I a m s a y in g d i d y o u s e e in t h e

d o c u m e n ts t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e a v a i l a b l e i n c l u d i n g t h e r e p o r t o f th e
D ir e c t o r s G e n e r a l t h a t t h e r e is a s u g g e s ti o n th a t t h e v e r s i o n t h a t w a s
t o l d to t h e m w a s th a t i n a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h W a r r a n t O ffi c e r N t s h is i y o u
s a i d N u m b e r – y o u r e fe r r e d to N u m b e r 1 e i th e r N u m b e r 1 o r t h e
P r e s i d e n t t h a t h e w a s a w a r e o f t h e v is i t a n d y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g t o t h e
e ffe c t t h a t t h e – t h e a p p li c a t io n s h o u l d b e a p p r o v e d e i th e r a p p r o v e d o r
p r o c e s s e d b u t y o u m e n ti o n e d N u m b e r 1 o r t h e P r e s i d e n t , a r e y o u a w a r e
10

t h a t t h a t is w h a t i s in t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d is a t tr ib u t e d t o y o u b e fo r e
w e c a n ta lk a b o u t w h e t h e r i t c o r r e c t ly r e fl e c ts w h a t y o u s a i d .
U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : C h a ir I a m s o r r y C h a ir I a m – m a y I a p p r o a c h ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o m e . Ye s .
U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir b u t I t h i n k in f a ir n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : I n f a ir n e s s t o t h e w i t n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : W e s h o u l d i d e n t if y
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

T h e p a r ti c u l a r p a r a g r a p h s o f t h e r e p o r t w h i c h

y o u h a v e in m in d b e c a u s e t o m y r e c o ll e c t io n w h a t th e r e p o r t s u g g e s ts
is n o t th a t th a t e x c h a n g e t o o k p l a c e in a c o n v e r s a t i o n b e t w e e n
A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d M r N t s h is i b u t r a th e r b e t w e e n M r N ts h i s i a n d
Colonel Anderson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o b u t y o u s h o u ld li s t e n to m y q u e s ti o n .

Page 127 of 183

I

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a s k e d h i m w h a t h is u n d e r s ta n d i n g is o f w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n s a y s .
S o in o th e r w o r d s I s a i d i s h is u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h a t w a s a
c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h Mr N ts h i s i t h e n o r la t e r i n w h i c h c a s e i f h is
u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n d o e s r e f e r t o a n y s u c h
c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th N t s h is i w h e r e h e m e n ti o n e d th a t h e c a n s a y n o , n o ,
n o I a m n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e d o c u m e n ts h a v e s u c h a r e f e r e n c e .

I am

a w a r e th a t th e d o c u m e n ts r e f e r t o w h ic h m e n ti o n t h a t a r e d o c u m e n ts
r e l a ti n g t o a c o n v e r s a t io n I h a d w i th s o m e b o d y e l s e .
U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : R i g h t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand?
UNKNOWN COUNSEL: I understand.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I a m n o t a w a r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t a w a r e ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I a m o n ly a w a r e a s i n d ic a t e d
o f t h e – t h e r e fe r e n c e to t h e d is c u s s i o n b e tw e e n C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a n d
M r N ts h is i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s N o r m a n d o y o u …
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A n d C h a ir m u s t a l s o i n d ic a te

20

t h a t m a y b e w h e n t h e C h a i r d e e m s i t a p p r o p r i a te I w o u l d a ls o l ik e t o
r a i s e s o m e s e r i o u s i s s u e s I h a v e a b o u t t h e r e p o r t i ts e l f b e c a u s e t h e
b u lk o f t h e q u e s ti o n s w il l b e b a s e d o n t h e r e p o r t o f t h e J P C S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: And I think if it pleases the
C h a ir I w o u l d j u s t l ik e t o m a k e s o m e c o m m e n t s a r o u n d th a t .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o , n o d e f i n i t e l y
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h a t is o f c o u r s e w h e n

they…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l g iv e y o u th e c h a n c e t o d o t h a t .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s N o r m a n d o y o u w a n t t o t a k e t h a t q u e s ti o n

forward?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a y b e I s h o u l d ju s t

d ir e c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m u n d e r th e i m p r e s s io n I m a y b e w r o n g …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t N ts h i s i is r e f le c te d a s
having said that but I may be wrong.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e d o e s c o n f ir m c e r ta i n p a r a g r a p h s i n t h e
r e p o r t a n d I w il l ta k e t h e w i t n e s s t h r o u g h t h o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y a lr i g h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Could we – just a

minute please.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o g o to t h e

r e p o r t i t m a y b e t h a t t h i s m ig h t b e t h e t i m e t h a t w e a l lo w t h e w it n e s s t o
m e n ti o n …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The areas of concern.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H is c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e r e p o r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e w e c a n g o i n to i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to deal with that Ambassador?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
m u c h f o r a c c o r d i n g m e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty.

Ye s C h a i r t h a n k y o u v e r y
C h a ir a s w e l is te n e d t o t h e

t e s ti m o n y o f o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s b y t h e n a m e o f Ms S i n d a n e o n
W e d n e s d a y s h e u n d e r o a th i n d ic a te d t h a t a c l u s te r o f m i n is te r s
a p p o i n t e d f o r p e o p l e t o b e – t o fo r m t h e J P C S t h a t w i ll t h e n b e t a s k e d
a m o n g s t o th e r th i n g s w it h th e – e n g a g e m e n t t h e i m p l ic a te d p e o p l e ,
10

g e t t in g r e p o r t s fr o m w h a t h a s b e e n d o n e i n th e p a s t e t c e t e r a . A n d s h e
f u r th e r in d ic a t e d th a t u n d e r w h e n – u n d e r c r o s s – u n d e r e x a m i n a ti o n
s h e i n d ic a te d t h a t s h e t r i e d t o a r r a n g e a n d m e e t w i t h M s A n d e r s o n
u n s u c c e s s f u l ly s o .

I j u s t w a n t t o g o o n r e c o r d C h a ir t h a t I a s o n e o f

t h e p e o p l e w h o w a s i m p l ic a te d w a s n e v e r e v e r i n v it e d b y t h e c o m m i t t e e
o f t h e fo u r p e o p l e s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d s i t w i t h m e a n d s a y t o m e th e r e is
s o m e c o n tr a d ic t o r y i n fo r m a ti o n w e h a v e r e c e iv e d w h ic h c o n fl ic ts w i th
t h e s ta t e m e n t th a t y o u h a d g iv e n . N e v e r. S o I w a s n e v e r s u b je c te d t o
t h a t . S e c o n d l y I w o u l d j u s t l ik e t o i n d ic a te C h a ir t h a t o n e o f th e p e o p l e
in t h a t c o m m i t t e e i t c a m e o u t b e c a u s e a ll o f th is fo r m e is n e w.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E:

Is th a t M r To m M o y a n e w a s

p a r t o f t h a t c o m m i t t e e b u t h e n e v e r s a t i n t h e m e e t in g s w h e r e I w a s
in t e r r o g a t e d b y a c o m m i t t e e o f a b o u t f o u r t e e n p e o p l e w h ic h m e a n t M s
S i n d a n e w il l b e t h e o n ly p e o p le w h o w ill a c t u a ll y b e i n fl u e n c e d i n th a t
t o g e th e r w i t h M s N d l o m o b u t I w a n t t o g o o n r e c o r d t h a t I w a s n e v e r

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n i t y to i n te r a c t w i th t h e in f o r m a t io n n o t n e c e s s a r i ly
p e o p l e , i n d iv i d u a l s b u t e v e n t o b e to l d t h a t y o u h a v e s a i d th is b u t t h e r e
is s o m e b o d y w h o c a n c o l la b o r a t e y o u i n f o r m a t io n t h e y s a y t h e o p p o s i te
w h a t d o y o u h a v e to s a y ? T h a t e x e r c is e w a s n e v e r d o n e . L a s tl y C h a ir
I w o u ld l ik e to s t a t e t h a t I w a s c a l l e d b y t h e c o m m i t t e e – th e o n l y
c o m m i t t e e s I m e t w i th I t h i n k I m u s t m a k e t h e s ta t e m e n t t o th e C h a ir
a l lo w s .

T h e fi r s t m e e ti n g is t h e o n e t h a t w a s r e f e r r e d t o e a r l ie r th is

m o r n in g a m e e t in g o f t h e N I C O C e x t e n d e d N I C O C m e e ti n g w h e r e i n t h e
D e p u ty G e n e r a l in th e P r e s id e n t s r e c o m m e n d e d th a t a c o m m i t t e e
10

c o m p r is in g o f D G ’s o f a l l t h e a ff e c t e d d e p a r t m e n ts b e fo r m e d .

I was

in v i te d b y t h a t c o m m i t t e e t h r o u g h t h e D G to a m e e ti n g i n o n e o f t h e
s e c u r i ty h o u s e s in E a s t e r n P r e to r i a . W h e n I g o t t h e r e t h e y a s k e d m e a
lo t o f q u e s t i o n s a n d I a s k e d – I s a i d t o t h e m , i n th e l e t t e r t h a t I
r e c e i v e d I w a s t o l d I a m o n l y g o in g t o m e e t M r N d lo m o . M r N d lo m o n o t
t h e o n e p u t in t h e n e w s p a p e r s a s T h u l a n i N d l o m o b u t t h e o th e r N d lo m o
w h o a c t u a ll y h is n a m e is D e n n is N d l o m o w h o w a s A m b a s s a d o r i n
A l g e r i a . H e w a s t h e C h a ir o f t h a t m e e ti n g . B u t th e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n
a b o u t t h ir te e n o r f o u r te e n p e o p l e I d o n o t r e c o l le c t. T h e y a s k e d m e a
lo t o f q u e s t io n s a n d I s a i d t o t h e m , w h a t is t h e l e g a l s t a t u s o f t h i s
20

g a t h e r i n g ? A n d th e y s a i d t o m e , i t is a f o r m a l a n d l e g a lly c o n s t it u t e d
s tr u c t u r e t o c o n d u c t a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n a b o u t t h e l a n d in g o f t h e G u p ta
p l a n e i n W a t e r k lo o f . I th e n a s k e d t h e m I s a i d , D o y o u n o t t h i n k i t w o u ld
h a v e b e e n a p p r o p r i a te f o r y o u t o i n fo r m m e a c c o r d i n g l y s o t h a t I w il l
h a v e e x e r c is e d my r i g h ts t o l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t io n i f I s o c h o o s e ? T h e y
t h e n s a i d n o i t i s f i n e c a n I b e e x c u s e d f o r a fe w m i n u t e s . I w a s . A f t e r

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t h a t th e y c a ll e d m e b a c k a f t e r q u i te a l o n g p e r i o d a n d t h e y s a i d o k a y
w e a r e g o in g t o g i v e y o u q u e s t io n s i n w r it in g s o th a t y o u c a n h a v e a
c h a n c e t o c o n s u l t w i t h y o u r le g a l c o u n s e l . I d id t h a t . I r e s p o n d e d t o
t h o s e q u e s ti o n s w i th in a v e r y s h o r t p e r i o d o f ti m e i n l e s s th a n t h r e e
days and I sent it back to them.

Number of weeks elapsed and then

o n e d a y a g a in t h r o u g h t h e D G th e y c a l l e d m e t o th e s a m e g u e s t h o u s e
a n d t h e y s a y I m u s t c o m e a n d c la r i fy s o m e o f t h e a n s w e r s I h a d g iv e n
t o t h e m in w r i ti n g .

B u t t h a t t o m e w a s ju s t a n e x e r c is e i n fu t ili t y

b e c a u s e t h e s a m e d a y t h a t th e y c a ll e d m e th e y h a d a lr e a d y g iv e n t h e
10

r e p o r t t o t h e M i n is te r J e ff R a d e b e w h o w a s a lr e a d y r e a d i n g i t . S o t h e
q u e s t io n i s w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f c a ll in g m e b y a l l t h e s e c o m m i t t e e
members?

It presupposes that some of these members did not know

t h a t th e r e w a s a fi n a l r e p o r t o u t th e r e a l r e a d y b e c a u s e t h e y w il l n o t
h a v e w a s te d t h e ir v a lu a b l e t i m e s i t ti n g a n d t r y i n g t o e s t a b l is h t h a t . S o I
a c t u a ll y h a v e a n u m b e r o f c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e in a c c u r a c i e s in m y v i e w
w h a t I s e e a s i n a c c u r a c i e s e x p r e s s e d i n th e r e p o r t .

And again if it

p l e a s e s t h e C h a ir I w o u ld r e q u e s t th a t t h e c o m m i s s io n e s t a b li s h e s fr o m
t h e la d y w h o w a s h e r e te s ti fy in g i f t h e y e v e r m a d e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Sindane.
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ms SIndane thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I a m s o r r y C h a ir I a m j u s t – t h e

t e c h n ic ia n s a r e – t h e y a r e s a y i n g th a t t h e ir s y s te m i s a b i t d o w n .
W h e t h e r y o u – y e s if y o u c o u l d a ll o w t h e m ju s t fi v e m i n u te s s o t h a t t h e y
c a n d e a l w i t h t h a t is s u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

W e a r e n o t b e in g r e c o r d e d w e a r e n o t b e i n g

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
h e a r d o r s o m e th in g l ik e th a t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a t i s w h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y le t u s – le t u s t a k e a s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t t o a l lo w
t h e te c h n ic i a n s to a t t e n d t o w h a t th e y n e e d t o a t te n d t o a n d t h e n w e
w i ll c o n ti n u e . H o p e f u lly fi v e m i n u t e s w il l b e e n o u g h .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y w e a d jo u r n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
REGISTRAR:
10

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

F i g u r e o u t w h a t i t is t h a t i s a p r o b le m b u t w e a r e

g o i n g to p r o c e e d b e c a u s e I u n d e r s ta n d w h a te v e r t h e p r o b le m is h a s n o t
a ffe c te d o u r r e c o r d i n g fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e tr a n s c r ip t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i ll p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l – w e w il l c o n t in u e . L e t u s c o n ti n u e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN
20

SC:

Thank

you

M r C h a ir m a n .

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e w a s s t il l m e n t io n in g m a t t e r s t h a t y o u f o u n d t o b e
m a t t e r s o f c o n c e r n i n th e J C P S R e p o r t .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h a t is r i g h t .

I just wanted

t o in d i c a t e C h a ir th a t o n t h e v e r y la s t m e e ti n g w h e n I w a s c a l l e d i n t o
c la r i fy t h e a n s w e r s t h a t I h a d p r o v i d e d w h e n I g o t o n t o m y r a d io
M i n is t e r J e ff R a d e b e w a s a ls o r e a d i n g o n t e l e v i s i o n t h e o u tc o m e o f t h e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
work of the JCPS Cluster …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

W h i c h t o m e w a s e x t r e m e ly

w o r r i s o m e t h a t I w o u l d b e c a ll e d to c o m e a n d a c c o u n t a n d to p r o v id e
m y o w n a c c o u n t o f is s u e s b u t a lr e a d y t h e r e is a p r e - d e li v e r e d r e p o r t
w h ic h h a s b e e n p r e s e n te d .

I t – i t r a is e s q u e s ti o n s t o m e o v e r a n d

a b o v e w h a t I s a i d e a r li e r.
N o n e t h e l e s s h a v in g s a id t h a t I a m w i ll i n g to c o o p e r a t e w it h
t h e C o m m i s s i o n if t h e y w a n t t o r a is e i s s u e s o n I w a n t e d to g o o n r e c o r d
10

t h a t t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e f i n a l r e p o r t w a s c o m p il e d b y t h e J C P S
s m e ll s fi s h y a n d n o r m a lly i f i t s m e ll s fi s h y i t is f is h a n d I a m r a i s i n g
t h a t b e c a u s e I h a v e e x p la in e d C h a ir t h a t t h e p e o p l e th a t in t e r v i e w e d
m e I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t th e y a r e t h e p e o p le w h o a r e a ls o
a s s o c i a t i n g w it h t h i s d o c u m e n t b u t n o w t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o n e v e r
s a i d ( i n d is ti n c t) w r o n g b u t t h e y a r e p a r t o f – t h e y a r e t h e o n e s
c o m p il in g th e fi n a l r e p o r t .
I j u s t w a n t e d t o g o o n r e c o r d o n t h a t a n d t h a t I w i ll b e w i ll in g
t o c o o p e r a t e fu ll y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

W it h th e C o m m is s i o n b u t I

ju s t w a n t e d t h a t s e r i o u s c o n c e r n n o t e d b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I t r a is e s a l o t o f q u e s ti o n s i n
my head.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

P a r t ic u l a r ly g i v e n t h a t t h e

C h a ir o f th a t C o m m i t t e e in o u r fi r s t i n t e r a c t io n a t N I C O C s h e w a s t h e
fir s t o n e t o p r o n o u n c e t h a t I m u s t n o t b e a l lo w e d t o u s e S t a te f u n d s t o
– t o d e fe n d m y s e l f l e g a ll y a n d I w a s n o t s u r e w h e r e t h a t c a m e fr o m
e i t h e r b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t I w a s b e i n g i f y o u li k e i n t e r v i e w e d fo r w h a t
h a p p e n e d d u r in g t h e e x e c u ti o n o f m y jo b a s C h i e f o f P r o t o c o l s o I w a s
not sure.
S o I t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s a lr e a d y a b ia s a n d th e n w h e n t h e
r e p o r t c o m e s in t h e w a y th a t i t d id .
10

It d e f i n i t e ly r a i s e s s e r i o u s

c o n c e r n s o n m y s id e . I j u s t w a n t t o g o o n r e c o r d o n th a t a n d t h e n a n d
w h a t e v e r q u e s ti o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I c a n C h a ir, t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p r o c e e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
the

report

is

the

Th a n k y o u . S o w h a t y o u a t ta c k in g a b o u t

process

but

you

have

not

id e n ti fi e d

factual

in a c c u r a c i e s i n th e r e p o r t ?
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: There are.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o u ld y o u p l e a s e i d e n ti f y t h e m ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: One of them that for example
M s S in d a n e a ls o m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o is th a t I to ld h e r – I t o l d s o m e b o d y
t h a t t h e M i n i s te r o f Tr a n s p o r t h a s a p p r o v e d l a n d i n g i n Wa t e r k l o o f .
S u r e l y – s u r e ly y o u w il l a ls o a p p r e c i a t e t h a t I w i ll n o t b e t h a t n a iv e t o

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
e x p e c t a M i n is t e r fr o m Tr a n s p o r t to s u p e r s e d e t h e M i n is t e r o f D e f e n c e
w h e n th e - W a t e r k l o o f is th e b a s e f a l li n g u n d e r t h e a u th o r i ty o f M i n i s te r
o f D e fe n c e .
S o s u r e ly t h e o n ly t h i n g I w a n t e d t o – t o g o o n r e c o r d a g a i n
o n is th a t y e s t h e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t s p o k e t o m e a b o u t t h e l a n d i n g
in O R Ta m b o b u t n e v e r d id I m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o i t la n d i n g i n W a te r k l o o f.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t – w h a t o t h e r in a c c u r a c i e s a r e
there?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
10

I c a n n o t r e c a ll a ll o f t h e m

n o w b e c a u s e i f m a y b e y o u a s k a q u e s ti o n I w il l b e a b l e t o i n d i c a t e
because …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
in f o r m a ti o n .

There

was

a

lo t

of

M a y b e I m a y a ls o i n d ic a te t h a t a l o t o f in f o r m a t io n w a s

g iv e n t o u s e x tr e m e l y la t e C h a ir a n d m a y b e t o c o r r e c t a l s o t h e
i m p r e s s io n c r e a t e d t h a t w e - w e r e q u e s te d a p o s t p o n e m e n t t o M o n d a y
b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d t o m a k e a n a ff id a v i t i s in a c c u r a t e . I t w a s b e c a u s e
w e g o t s o m e o f th e d o c u m e n ts a c t u a ll y o n Fr id a y. S o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I c o u ld n o t p r e p a r e . I c o u l d
not prepare …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Pr o p e r ly w i th o u t a c c e s s t o

t h a t . S o t h a t w a s t h e o n ly r e a s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 136 of 183

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Primary reason …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Why

we

requested

an

e x t e n s i o n . S o c le a r ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

W i t h a l l t h e d o c u m e n ts i n

y o u r – in t h e p o s s e s s i o n o f th e C o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
10

I t h a s b e e n a v e r y d i ff ic u l t

period for us.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . I - I w il l j u s t r e f e r y o u t o w h a t
I b e l ie v e w h ic h is – w h ic h is s o m e t h i n g t h a t M a j o r N ts h is i h a s
c o n fir m e d b e c a u s e a s y o u – I t h i n k y o u w o u l d a p p r e c ia t e t h e f a c t t h a t
t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s

th a t y o u

had

with

Colonel Anderson and

M a jo r N ts h i s i a r e c r i ti c a l c o n v e r s a t io n s .

with

S o I w o u l d li k e y o u t o

comment on those.
20

S o i f y o u d o n o t m i n d c o u l d y o u p le a s e l o o k – h a v e a l o o k a t
E X H I B I T F F 1 w h ic h i s t h e r e p o r t – w h e r e th e r e p o r t i s c o n t a i n e d a n d
t h e n y o u c a n j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e y o u b e li e v e t h a t …
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: FF1 page?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F F 1 i f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e t u r n t o p a g e 11 .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : 11 .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d i t w il l u n d e r o r n e x t t o p a r a g r a p h

2 .1 . 1 2 .
“On

2 A p r il 2 0 1 3

the

Chief

of

S t a te

Pr o to c o l

c o n ta c t e d t h e P o l it ic a l A d v is o r t o th e M in is te r o f
D e f e n c e a n d M i li t a r y Ve t e r a n s t o i n q u ir e a s t o t h e
p r o g r e s s w i t h t h e r e q u e s t . T h e A m b a s s a d o r s t a te d
t h a t h e w a s u n d e r p r e s s u r e fr o m n u m b e r o n e o n t h e
m a t t e r. T h e P o l i tic a l A d v is o r s t a t e d t h a t h e w a s n o t
in a p o s i ti o n t o r e s p o n d a t th a t p o in t in ti m e . ”
10

Is t h a t s t a te m e n t c o r r e c t ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : N o i t is n o t m a ’ a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. A ll o f i t o r c e r t a in p a r ts ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I d i d a s k – I d i d c a l l th e

A d v is o r a f t e r t h e – th e A m b a s s a d o r o f I n d i a s a id h e is a w a r e t h a t t h e
r e q u e s t h a s b e e n e l e v a t e d t o th e M in is t e r. S o I w a n te d to fi n d o u t fr o m
h i m i f – i f th e M in is t e r h a d m a d e o r a p p l ie d h e r m i n d to t h e – t o th e
said request.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o w h ic h p a r t o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h th a t
I h a v e r e a d o u t is n o t a c c u r a te ?
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h e r e fe r e n c e t h a t I w a s

u n d e r p r e s s u r e fr o m n u m b e r o n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . O n ly t h a t p a r t ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I n f a c t – s o r r y.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h , s o r r y.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Ja, ja.

I t is – t h a t is

b a s ic a lly i t y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u a n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 . 1 5 .
“On

9 A p r il 2 0 1 3

the

Chief

of

S t a te

Pr o to c o l

t e l e p h o n e d S e r g e a n t M a j o r N ts h is i a t t h e A ir F o r c e
C o m m a n d P o s t t o in q u i r e a s to t h e p r o g r e s s w i t h
the

clearance

request

fr o m

the

Indian

High

C o m m i s s i o n . N ts h is i in f o r m e d t h e A m b a s s a d o r t h a t
t h e b a s e c o u ld o n ly r e c e iv e f li g h t s tr a n s p o r t i n g

10

H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d t h e i r D e p u t ie s . ”
Is t h a t p a r a g r a p h s o f a r c o r r e c t o r th e c o n t e x ts o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h s o f a r
correct?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I do not have a proper

r e c o l l e c ti o n o f th e – t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e d is c u s s io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I accept that it was about

f o ll o w i n g u p o n w h e t h e r t h e f li g h t c l e a r a n c e h a s b e e n p r o c e s s e d o r n o t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s ; b u t w o u ld y o u h a v e – w o u ld –

M a jo r N ts h i s i w o u ld h a v e t o ld y o u w h a t – w h a t w o u l d th e y n o r m a l ly
a l lo w ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I – I suppose so but as I

in d i c a t e d e a r li e r m a ’ a m I w o u ld h a v e a l s o a s k e d h i m w h y t h e y h a d
a l lo w e d t h e – t h e m o t h e r o f t h e Ki n g o f S w a z i l a n d t o l a n d a t Wa t e r k l o o f
if th o s e a r e t h e o n l y c a t e g o r ie s b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g if – if th a t w a s my

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
o b j e c ti v e b u t t h a t w a s n o t .

M y o b j e c t iv e w a s j u s t t o e s ta b lis h if t h e y

h a v e is s u e d a n d / o r p r o c e s s e d t h e f li g h t c l e a r a n c e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

So what do you say about that

p a r a g r a p h ? Yo u a r e n o t s u r e .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I do not – I do not remember
that at all.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u . L e t u s m o v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s – l e t u s p u t i t th is w a y a c c o r d i n g t o th is
r e p o r t W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N t s h is i a t t h e t i m e a c c o r d i n g to t h e r e p o r t t o l d
10

y o u i n t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t t h e b a s e c o u l d o n ly r e c e i v e fl i g h ts
tr a n s p o r t in g H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d t h e ir D e p u ti e s . D o y o u r e m e m b e r h i m
having said that to you or are you saying you do not remember he may
h a v e s a i d s o b u t y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r o r y o u s a y h e d e fi n i t e ly d i d n o t
say so?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

C h a ir p e r s o n I d o u b t t h a t h e

w o u ld h a v e s a i d s o a n d I w i ll g iv e y o u r e a s o n s w h y.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Because

when

he

was

t e s ti fy in g s i tt i n g h e r e …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : H e in d i c a t e d t h a t p e o p l e w h o
h a v e u ti li s e d Wa t e r k l o o f is th e H e a d o f S t a te , t h e D e p u ty H e a d o f S t a t e
a n d M i n is t e r s i f t h e y a r e d o i n g b u s in e s s – G o v e r n m e n t b u s in e s s . S o h e
w o u ld n o t h a v e r e s tr i c t e d h i m s e l f t o o n ly H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d D e p u ti e s

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
b e c a u s e h e k n o w s t h e w o r k . H e is b e i n g w o r k i n g in t h a t a r e a f o r q u i t e
s o m e ti m e .
T h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g I f in d d i ff ic u l ty in a s s o c ia t in g w i t h a
s t a te m e n t w h ic h is in c o m p l e te b e c a u s e I w il l h a v e e x p e c t e d h i m t o
a c t u a ll y s a y e v e n in c l u d i n g s p e c i a l e n v o y s f o r e x a m p l e w h ic h a ls o l a n d
a t Wa t e r k l o o f .

S o t h a t is w h y f o r m e th a t s t a te m e n t m a k e s m e fe e l

uncomfortable again.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I c a n i m a g in e th a t h e m i g h t h a v e s a i d H e a d s o f
S t a te a n d t h e ir D e p u ti e s i f h e d id n o t in t e n d g iv i n g th e w h o l e l is t …
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i f h e w a s th e n a s k e d a r e t h o s e th e o n ly p e o p le

t h e n i f h e s a i d H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d t h e ir D e p u ti e s o n ly. Th e n h e w o u l d
h a v e a p p r e c ia t e d t h a t h e w a s n o w b e i n g a s k e d t o g i v e th e f u ll li s t o r
what do you say?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I th in k C h a ir i t w o u l d h a v e

b e e n a n a n o m a ly fo r h i m to d o – t o s a y t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

B e c a u s e t h e a p p li c a t io n f o r

t h e la n d i n g w a s i n d i c a t in g th a t i t i s M in is t e r s n o t H e a d s o f S t a te .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : S o h e w i ll h a v e t o r e s p o n d e d
to it
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
M i n is t e r s …

Page 141 of 183

And

said

sorry

th e s e

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

B e c a u s e o f t h is w e a r e

denying them the right to land.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

So I would have understood

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n t h a t a t t h i s s ta g e h e k n e w o r h e

h a d s e e n t h e a p p li c a t io n o r t h e p a p e r s th a t i n d ic a t e d d e ta ils …
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Hm.
10

CHAIRPERSON: About the request?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I w o u ld n o t b e a b le to t e l l

C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Because

as

I

said

u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h e r e q u e s t h a d b e e n s e n t d i r e c t ly t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

To t h e – t o th e M i n is t e r o f

Defence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ambassador?

Page 142 of 183

M a y w e th e n p r o c e e d

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

“Then

th e

Ambassador

r e s p o n d e d t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e f o u r t o fi v e M i n i s te r s
on board.”
D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A s I i n d ic a te d e a r l ie r I c o u ld
h a v e s a id t h a t b e c a u s e t h e M i n is te r – t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n o f I n d i a h a d
t o l d m e t h a t t h e r e w il l b e f o u r - f o u r. I n f a c t I t h i n k I s a i d s i x o r e i g h t
M i n is t e r s w ill b e o n b o a r d .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . H e a d d e d t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

G o in g t o th e p o i n t t h a t y o u m a d e i n r e g a r d t o th e

s t a te m e n t t o s a y y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n s u r p r is e d i f h e g a v e a n
in c o m p l e t e l is t .

If i n d e e d h e d id s a y l a n d i n g a t W a t e r k lo o f w a s f o r

H e a d s o f S t a te a n d t h e ir D e p u ti e s th e n i t w o u l d b e u n d e r s t a n d a b l e
w o u ld i t n o t i f y o u t h e n s a i d y o u k n o w t h e p e o p le w h o a r e c o m i n g
in c l u d e

M i n is t e r s

because

you

were

aware

th a t

according

to

C o m m i s s i o n e r – t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r it w a s M i n is t e r s w h o w e r e
20

g o i n g to b e i n v o l v e d i n t h e p l a n e i n t e r m s o f G o v e r n m e n t O ff ic i a ls a n d
n o t o th e r p e o p l e .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a ir t h e w a y I r e a d it …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A g a i n s u b j e c t to c o r r e c t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Is th a t i f h e s a y s to m e i t i s
o n ly th e H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d t h e ir D e p u ti e s w h o l a n d th e r e a n d t h a t is
a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g w e h a v e b o th e s t a b l is h e d . I t h i n k i t w il l m a k e m o r e
sense than for me to say oh yes by the way there is a Deputy President
in t h e p l a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

So

for

me

it

does

not

suddenly follow that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

T h e m e n t i o n in g t h a t t h e r e

w i ll b e M i n i s te r s is li n k e d t o th e s t a te m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

That he might have made

e a r l ie r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t la s t b i t .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I a m s a y i n g t o – to C h a ir I

a m tr y i n g t o i n d i c a t e C h a ir th a t th e r e i s n o d ir e c t l i n k b e t w e e n t h e t w o .
T h e y m a y b e o r t h e y m a y n o t b e l in k e d b e c a u s e i f h e s a i d s o r r y w e o n l y
a l lo w p e o p l e li k e w h e n y o u g o t o s o m e p l a c e s t h e y s a y s o r r y w e o n ly
20

a l lo w p e o p l e w h o a r e 1 8 y e a r s a n d o l d e r. Th e y s a y o f c o u r s e I a m 1 8 .
Yo u th e n s h o w t h a t .
Yo u d o n o t s a y I a m 1 4 . S o e v e n i n t h i s c a s e w h e n t h e y s a y
it i s o n ly H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d th e ir D e p u ti e s fo r m e t o m a k e a n – t o
c o n ti n u e e n g a g i n g b a s e d o n t h a t. I w i ll h a v e h a d t o s a y in d e e d a ls o in
t h is p l a n e c o m i n g t h e r e is a D e p u t y P r e s id e n t o r a P r e s i d e n t .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON:

U n le s s o f c o u r s e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t

M i n is t e r s c a n a l s o l a n d t h e r e u n d e r c e r t a i n c i r c u ms t a n c e s d e s p i te w h a t
h e w a s s a y in g .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I a g r e e C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A n d I a m s u r e a l s o th a t e v e n
in h is u n d e r s t a n d i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : H e k n o w s t h a t M in is t e r s l a n d
10

there and …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : E a r li e r th is m o r n in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

A m b a s s a d o r M a t ji la

made

r e fe r e n c e f o r e x a m p le t o H i l a r y C l in t o n w h o h a s l a n d e d th e r e m a n i e r
ti m e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

S o – d o - M i n is t e r s d o la n d

there …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

An d I a m 1 0 0 p e r c e n t s u r e

t h a t h e k n o w s th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w h a t – w h a t I m e a n is if h e s a i d to y o u

H e a d s o f S t a t e a n d t h e ir D e p u t ie s la n d h e r e a n d y o u k n o w t h a t
M i n is t e r s a ls o la n d th e r e u n d e r c e r t a in c i r c u m s ta n c e s i t a p p e a r s t o m e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t o b e n a t u r a l f o r y o u t o s a y - t o r e f e r t o M i n is t e r s b e c a u s e th a t m i g h t
ju s t r e m in d h i m t h a t d o – Mi n is t e r s d o a l s o a c t u a l ly la n d t h e r e o r y o u
do not think so?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I d o n o t r e c a l l C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

But of course I could have

said that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
10

M i n is t e r s b u t I d o n o t r e c a ll

or …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t r e c a ll j a b u t i t is p o s s i b le b u t y o u d o n o t –
you are not sure?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I d o n o t r e c a l l th a t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . H e a d d e d th a t :
“ T h e M i n is te r o f Tr a n s p o r t Mr B e n M a r t in s h a d b e e n
g iv e n i n s t r u c t i o n s b y th e P r e s i d e n t t o a s s is t t h e
G u p t a f a m il y.

Th a t t h e M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e a n d

M il i ta r y Ve te r a n s h a s n o o b je c t i o n .
20

That at a

m e e ti n g o f t h e M in is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t , t h e C E O o f
A C S A a n d th e G u p t a s h e h a d b e e n t o l d t o a s s i s t
a n d th a t th is w a s a u n i q u e c a s e . ”
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
s t a te m e n t .

I d e n y c a t e g o r ic a l ly t h a t

I t s o u n d s v e r y m u c h li k e th e m e d i a s ta t e m e n t I r e a d a ft e r

t h e y d is c o v e r e d a t m e e ti n g th a t M i n i s t e r – o f B e n M a r ti n s h a d h a d in

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
O R Ta m b o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o e v e r y t h i n g th a t I h a v e r e a d is – i s
in a c c u r a t e ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I – I d o n o t r e c a ll th a t a t a l l .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u a n d t h e n :
“ N ts h i s i r e q u e s t e d a n o t e o r a l e t te r fr o m … ”
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e ll s o m e o f th e s e a r e i m p o r t a n t p i e c e s .

S o I ju s t

w a n t to d r a w a t t e n ti o n t h a t i f y o u d o n o t r e c a l l - i f y o u s a y y o u d o n o t
r e c a l l w h a t i t m e a n s is t h a t i t c o u ld b e t h a t y o u s a i d i t . I t c o u l d b e t h a t
y o u d id n o t s a y i t. S o i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t y o u m a k e u p y o u r m i n d a s t o
w h e t h e r th e p o s i t io n is t h a t y o u d o n o t r e c a l l. I t c o u l d b e t h a t y o u s a i d
it .
I t c o u l d b e t h a t y o u d i d n o t s a y i t o r y o u a r e q u i te c le a r th a t
y o u d i d n o t s a y i t . I n w h ic h c a s e i f y o u a r e q u i te c le a r t h a t y o u d i d n o t
s a y i t th e n y o u s a y I d e fi n i t e l y d i d n o t s a y it . S o I j u s t w a n t t o e x p l a in
t h a t s o th a t y o u – y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t – w h a t m e a n in g I a t t a c h t o a
s t a te m e n t w h e n y o u s a y I d o n o t r e c a ll .

20

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t y o u c a n m a k e s u r e I – I g e t e x a c tly w h a t y o u
w a n t to c o n v e y.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a ir, m a y I a s k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : F o r c la r i ty o n t h e q u e s t i o n ?

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I f y o u r e a d t h e li n e th a t w a s
ju s t r e a d t o m e fo r e x a m p le it s t a t e s th a t – i t s a y s :
“ H e a d d e d th a t t h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t h a d b e e n
g iv e n i n s t r u c t i o n s b y th e P r e s i d e n t t o a s s is t t h e
G u p t a f a m il y.

Th a t t h e M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e a n d

M i n is t e r o f Ve t e r a n s h a d n o o b j e c ti o n .

That at a

m e e ti n g o f t h e M in is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t , t h e C E O o f
A C S A a n d th e G u p t a s h e h a d b e e n t o l d t o a s s i s t
10

a n d th a t th is w a s a u n i q u e c a s e . ”
W h o w o u ld h a v e t o ld th e M i n is te r o f – I a m j u s t t h in k i n g
a l o u d . I a m n o t tr y i n g t o a s k – I a m t h e o n e s a n s w e r i n g q u e s t i o n s b u t I
a m tr y in g t o h i g h li g h t t h e o th e r i n a c c u r a c i e s i n t h i s r e p o r t. W h o w o u ld
h a v e t o l d M i n is t e r M a r t in s w h e n w e h a d i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e p e o p l e i n t h e
m e e ti n g w a s m y s e l f, t h e C E O o f A C S A , M r G u p t a a n d M i n i s te r M a r ti n s
a n d w e a lr e a d y r e p o r t e d w h a t tr a n s p ir e d in t h a t m e e ti n g b u t th e w a y
t h a t r e a d s i t i s lik e Mr M a r t i n s h a d b e e n g iv e n a n i n s tr u c ti o n t o a s s is t
a n d th a t i s w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o s a y I a m g e t ti n g – y o u k n o w – c o n f u s e d .
W h o w o u ld – y o u k n o w – i n f o r m M i n i s t e r M a r ti n s t o – t o

20

a c t u a ll y d o s o ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Well where it says:
“He added …”
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a k e th a t t o b e a r e fe r e n c e t o y o u . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t – t h a t y o u a d d e d . S a m e s e n t e n c e t h a t y o u a r e
d e a li n g w it h j u s t n o w. A t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f it .
“He

added

that

the

Minister

of

Tr a n s p o r t

M i n is t e r B e n M a r ti n s h a d b e e n g iv e n i n s tr u c t io n s
…”
M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t t h e “ h e ” is a r e fe r e n c e t o y o u . Is t h a t
your understanding as well?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I f th a t is w h a t is m e a n t th e n I
10

hear but …
CHAIRPERSON:
have made.

B u t I d o n o t th i n k t h a t ta k e s c a r e o f t h e p o i n t y o u

I t m a y b e – m a y b e I m ig h t h a v e m i s u n d e r s t o o d .

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t b e c a u s e t h e p r e v i o u s s e n t e n c e r e l a te s t o y o u .
“ T h e A m b a s s a d o r r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t t h e r e w i ll b e
f o u r t o f iv e M in is t e r s o n b o a r d . ”
Then the next sentence.
“He

added

that

the

Minister

of

Tr a n s p o r t

Mr Ben Martins had been given instructions …”
T h a t “ h e ” I u n d e r s ta n d t o b e a r e f e r e n c e t o th e A m b a s s a d o r.
20

T h a t w o u ld b e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f – o f t h is a s w e l l o r n o t r e a l ly ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I f y o u c l a r i fy it l ik e th a t C h a ir
b u t a g a in lik e I s a i d I d o n o t r e c a l l C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . If i t is r e a d l ik e t h a t t h e n y o u u n d e r s ta n d i t b u t
y o u d o n o t r e c a l l?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s s ir.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: And then of course it says:
“He

added

that

the

Minister

of

Tr a n s p o r t

M r B e n M a r t i n s h a d b e e n g i v e n i n s tr u c t io n s b y t h e
P r e s i d e n t t o a s s is t t h e G u p t a fa m i ly.

T h a t th e

M i n is t e r o f D e fe n c e a n d M ili t a r y Ve t e r a n s h a s n o
o b j e c ti o n .

T h a t a t a m e e ti n g o f t h e M in is te r o f

Tr a n s p o r t , t h e C E O o f A C S A a n d t h e G u p t a s h e h a d
10

b e e n t o l d to a s s is t a n d t h a t th is w a s a u n i q u e
case.”
This last “he” …
“ … h e h a d b e e n t o ld t o a s s i s t … ”
M y i n i t i a l r e a c ti o n w a s t h a t i t i s a r e f e r e n c e to t h e M in is t e r
a n d i f r e a d l ik e t h a t i t s e e m s t o m e it w o u l d m e a n t h e M in is t e r w a s t o ld
a t t h e m e e ti n g i n v o l v i n g A C S A a t t h e a ir p o r t t o a s s i s t b u t i t is p o s s i b le
t h a t t h a t “ h e ” r e fe r s to y o u h a v i n g b e e n t o ld t o a s s is t b e c a u s e th is is a
u n i q u e c a s e . I a m n o t s u r e . I a m j u s t p u t ti n g i d e a s t h a t c o m e t o m i n d
a s I t r y to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i s b e i n g s a i d . Yo u - y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t?

20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I t h i n k t h e – th e d is t in c t i o n

t h a t t h e C h a i r i s i d e n t i fy i n g o f th e t w o m e a n i n g s i s e x a c tly w h a t I w a s
a ls o s a y i n g . I w a s i d e n t i fy in g a s c o n f u s in g i n th a t s t a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s b u t y o u s a y w h a te v e r t h e – w h o e v e r t h e “ h e ”
is r e f e r r e d t o y o u – y o u h a v e n o r e c o ll e c ti o n t h a t …
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : N o I d o n o t r e c a ll C h a ir.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is – th is w a s s a i d ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d e v e n i f t h e s u g g e s ti o n t h a t i t w a s s a i d b y
you – you say …
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I d o n o t r e c a l l th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t r e c a ll ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d y o u a p p r e c ia t e th e d i s t i n c ti o n th a t I h a v e
ju s t s a id a b o u t …
10

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

Being – about saying I do not recall or never – I

n e v e r s a i d i t?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir ; a n d t h e n :
“GC

requested

a

n o te

or

a

letter

fr o m

the

Ambassador …”
D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
20

He did say that you send

s o m e t h i n g i n w r i ti n g a n d t h a t i s w h e n I a s k e d m y PA t o s e n d a n e m a i l
s a y in g t h a t c a n th e y p l e a s e p r o c e s s t h a t – t h e a p p lic a ti o n w h ic h
u n f o r t u n a t e ly I t h i n k w e w e n t t h r o u g h i t i n t h e m o r n i n g w a s s e n t i n w a y
w h ic h s a i d I h a v e a u t h o r is e d i t w h e n I d o n o t h a v e s u c h p o w e r s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
“ … a n d t h e A m b a s s a d o r r e s p o n d e d t h a t c h a l le n g e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
w a s t h a t t h is c o u l d n o t b e p u t i n w r i t in g . ”
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

No.

I - I c o u ld n o t s a y th a t

a n d t h e n i m m e d i a t e ly i n s tr u c t m y PA t o s e n d a n e m a i l to c o n fi r m t h a t I
w a n t t h e m t o p r o c e s s a n d a ls o a s k m y PA t o c o p y t w o o f t h e S e n i o r
Managers

in

the

Pr o t o c o l

Section

th a t

is

my

D e p u ty

M s S a l ly R a m o k g o p a a n d M s G r a c e M a s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o :
“He

added

that

He

had

met

with

L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n th e p r e v io u s w e e k t o
10

show them around the area.”
Did

th a t

Colonel Anderson?

happen?

D id

you

at

any

Did you go around the area?

stage

meet

w i th

I would imagine

maybe at Waterkloof.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : T h e o n ly ti m e t h a t I m e t w i th
C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a t W a t e r k lo o f w a s w h e n w e w e n t t h e r e t o d o a d r y
r u n b e fo r e t h e a r r iv a l .

L i k e f o r w h e n e v e r y o u h a v e g o t d e l e g a ti o n s

c o m i n g l a n d i n g th e r e s o m e w o u ld r e q u e s t t h a t th e y w o u l d l ik e a p r e
in s p e c t io n to s e e h o w th e y a r e g o i n g t o p l a n i t a n d i t w a s s o m e t h i n g
standard that we used to do in the two and a half years that I worked
20

t h e r e w h ic h a l s o I a m s u r e w il l a p p e a r i n t h e – in t h e r e p o r t o f th e
m e e ti n g w i t h th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r w h ic h w a s h e l d t o v e r i f y t h a t v e r y
same point.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s b u t – b u t t h is s h o w in g a r o u n d d i d i t

r e l a t e t o th e l a n d i n g o f – o f J e t A ir w a y s ?
A M B A S S A D O R V S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I – I ju s t d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a t a ll m a ’a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. Yo u d o n o t r e m e m b e r i t o r i t n e v e r
occurred?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: No, no I know that there was
a n in s p e c t io n b e c a u s e I d i d I a s k e d h e r t o – i f s h e c o u l d a r r a n g e t o
m e e t w i t h t h e p e o p l e a n d I k n o w t h a t th e r e w a s a – w h a t d o y o u – th e r e
w e r e p e o p le w h o w e n t th e r e to – fr o m e v e n ts m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y
w h o w e n t t h e r e to a c t u a l ly s e e h o w t h e y c o u l d a c tu a l ly d o th e d é c o r f o r
t h e a r r iv a l .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

S o t h is w o u l d h a v e b e e n f o r th e

a r r iv a l o f t h e J e t A ir w a y s A i r c r a ft ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Fo r

the

–

for

th e

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F o r th e G u p t a w e d d i n g ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

S o t h i s th e n a c c o r d i n g to y o u a n d

y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n A m b a s s a d o r th is w o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d p r i o r …
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Before the landing.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Before the landing?
20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d i t w o u l d h a v e a l s o h a p p e n e d p r i o r
t o 9 A p r i l b e c a u s e th a t is t h e d a te w h e n y o u s p o k e t o M a j o r N t s h is i?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I a m n o t s u r e o f th e – I d o

recollect the dates ma’am.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u d o n o t …

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I t h a s b e e n a lo n g t i m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o w h a t e ls e – w h a t e ls e w e r e – d i d
y o u – d i d y o u b e c o m e p a r t o f i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t h e l a n d i n g o t h e r t h a n
f o r t h e e v e n ts m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y fo r t h e G u p t a w e d d i n g t h a t w e n t t o
– to h a v e a lo o k a t W a te r k l o o f ? W h a t o th e r a c ti v i ti e s d i d y o u – d id y o u
p a r t ic ip a t e i n p r i o r t o th e l a n d i n g ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I a m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d

w h a t y o u m e a n b y a c ti v i ti e s m a ’ a m b u t a s f a r a s I k n o w th a t is b a s i c a lly
– m y – my j o b w a s o n l y in p r o t o c o l a n d I h a d n o o t h e r b u s in e s s in a l l
10

o th e r – y o u k n o w - p o r t fo li o s b e c a u s e t h o s e fe ll – f e ll u n d e r d i ffe r e n t
people.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

So can we agree then that at this

p o i n t w h e n y o u w e n t t o g e t h e r w i t h C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n t o lo o k a t
Wa t e r k l o o f t h is a i r c r a ft h a d n o t r e c e iv e d c l e a r a n c e a t t h a t p o i n t?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

No ma’am.

T h e o n l y ti m e

t h a t y o u c a n a ll o w p e o p le t o c o m e a n d d o a p r e i n s p e c ti o n is o n ly w h e n
t h e y h a v e r e c e i v e d t h e fl i g h t c l e a r a n c e a n d th e n a ft e r r e c e iv i n g
c le a r a n c e th e n th e y a r r a n g e t o g o a n d d o a p r e a r r iv a l i n s p e c t i o n a b o u t
h o w t h e y a r e g o in g to d e a l w i th t h e t h i n g s t h e r e .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s b u t t h e n l e t u s j u s t r e t r a c t . R a t h e r l e t
u s – l e t u s r e tr a c e o u r s t e p s .

I f o n 9 A p r il th a t i s t h e d a y w h e n y o u

w e r e s p e a k i n g t o M a jo r N ts h i s i .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t is t h e d a y w h e n t h e c l e a r a n c e h a d

n o t h a p p e n e d b u t a l r e a d y y o u w e r e t e l li n g h i m t h a t C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n is

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a w a r e o f th is b e c a u s e s h e h a d b e e n t o W a te r k l o o f . W e l l y o u h a v e j u s t
t o l d u s n o w w i th t h e e v e n t s c o m p a n y – m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y. N o w a t
t h a t p o in t t h e r e w e r e – t h e r e w a s n o c l e a r a n c e w h e n C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n
went.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I t h in k m a ’a m I t h in k y o u

m e a n t to s a y t h e c o m p a n y w e n t b e c a u s e C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n w o r k e d a t
Wa t e r k l o o f .

S o s h e w a s a lw a y s p e r p e t u a lly t h e r e .

T h a t is o n e .

N u m b e r t w o , I a m s a y in g a g a i n m a ’ a m a l th o u g h I d o n o t r e c a ll t h e e x a c t
s e q u e n c e a n d t h e d a t e b e c a u s e o f th e t i m e l a g a ll I a m c e r ta i n o f is
10

t h a t th e r e is n o w a y t h a t I w o u l d h a v e s a i d t o h i m th a t w e h a v e a lr e a d y
h a d a p r e in s p e c t io n if t h e – t h e f li g h t c l e a r a n c e h a d n o t b e e n is s u e d . I
d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t d a t e s lik e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Yo u k n o w – a s t h e y a r e l ik e

that.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t . W e a r e g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k t o t h e
d a t e s a n d I a m g o i n g t o s h o w y o u A m b a s s a d o r t h a t a t th e t i m e w h e n
y o u w e r e te ll i n g M a j o r N t s h is i t h a t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n h a d b e e n th e r e
M a jo r N ts h i s i h a d n o t i s s u e d a c l e a r a n c e c e r t if ic a te b e c a u s e i f it – i f i t
20

d i d n o t h a p p e n – i f i t h a p p e n e d b e fo r e t h e 9 t h t h e n c l e a r ly w h e n
C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n w e n t to d o – w i th th e e v e n ts c o m p a n y t o g o t h e r e t h e r e w a s n o c le a r a n c e th a t h a d b e e n is s u e d f o r t h is a ir c r a f t b u t w e w il l
g e t b a c k to t h a t . I d o n o t w a n t u s t o …
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I t is o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I w a n t u s t o d e a l w i t h w h a t w e a r e d e a l in g

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
with now …
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I t is o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t I w i ll s h o w y o u t h a t . T h a n k y o u . N o w
t h e A m b a s s a d o r – s o r r y. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . W e w e r e – o k a y :
“ … t o s h o w th e m t h e a r e a .

G C s h o u ld c o n t a c t th e

L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l t o c o n f ir m t h is . ”
So

you

are

t e ll i n g

GC

on

that

day

that

he

must

contact

C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n t o c o n f ir m t h i s .
“ T h e A m b a s s a d o r s t a t e d c l e a r ly t h a t th i s w a s f o r
10

t h e G u p t a f a m ily w e d d i n g . ”
S o w o u ld t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: No I do not.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u d o n o t r e c a l l ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

W h a t is i t t h a t y o u d o n o t r e c a l l ?

That you would have told him that it was a Gupta wedding or the fact
that he must contact Colonel Anderson because she had been there.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I d o n o t r e c a ll t e ll in g h i m i t

w a s a G u p ta w e d d i n g .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .
“ H e i n s tr u c t e d N ts h is i to c a ll h i m b a c k . ”
D o y o u r e c a l l a s k i n g N ts h is i t o c a l l y o u b a c k ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

W h e n I tr i e d t o c a ll in i ti a l ly

a n d I d id n o t g e t h i m a n d I l e f t a m e s s a g e a n d t h e n s e c o n d ly I s a i d
o n c e t h e y h a v e e s t a b li s h e d w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e g r a n ti n g o r n o t g r a n t i n g

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
t h e n t h e y m u s t c a l l m e b a c k t o l e t m e k n o w s o I c o u ld c o n v e r s e t h a t
in f o r m a ti o n t o t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r o f I n d i a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s ; a n d th e n o n 1 3 M a y 2 0 1 3 :
“ T h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l in th e P r e s id e n c y s t a t e d t h a t
a t n o p o i n t d id t h e Pr e s i d e n t g iv e i n s tr u c ti o n s to
A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e o r d is c u s s t h e is s u e o f t h e
la n d i n g o f th e a ir c r a f t w i t h h i m . ”
W o u l d th a t s t a te m e n t b e c o r r e c t ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . R e g a r d i n g s p e c i fi c …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I have lost you where you are.

I was looking for

s o m e t h i n g e ls e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir.

I t is t h e l a s t

paragraph.
CHAIRPERSON: Of the report?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o . A t p a g e 11 . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y, a lr ig h t .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u s e e o n p a g e 11 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e d e a l t w i th :
“ … i n s tr u c t e d N ts h i s i t o c a ll h i m b a c k . ”
And then on 13 May 2013:
“ T h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l in th e P r e s id e n c y s t a t e d t h a t

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
a t n o p o i n t d id t h e Pr e s i d e n t g iv e i n s tr u c ti o n s to
A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e o r d is c u s s t h e is s u e o f t h e
la n d i n g o f th e a ir c r a f t w i t h h i m . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I – I m i s s e d y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s l o o k in g fo r s o m e t h i n g e l s e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: The …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is C h a ir a t p a g e 11 ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , I a m o n th a t p a g e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w a n t t o t a lk a b o u t s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u m a y h a v e

a s k e d a lr e a d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n – i n th a t p a r a g r a p h a ft e r t h e p a r t t h a t w e w e r e

d e a li n g w i th w h ic h y o u c o u l d n o t r e c a l l r e l a ti n g t o s o m e b o d y b e i n g to l d
t o a s s i s t a n d t h is w a s - a n d t h a t t h i s w a s a u n iq u e c a s e . I t i s r e fl e c t e d
t h a t Mr N ts h i s i r e q u e s t e d a n o t e o r l e t te r f r o m t h e A m b a s s a d o r a n d t h a t
t h e A m b a s s a d o r r e s p o n d e d t h a t t h e c h a l l e n g e w a s t h a t t h is c o u l d n o t
20

b e p u t i n w r i ti n g .

She probably has asked you this.

What is your

answer to …
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : N o I r e s p o n d e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Whether there was that exchange or not?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I s a i d t h a t is n o t a n a c c u r a t e
r e fl e c t io n o f w h a t – o f w h a t I d id .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I t w a s o n t h e c o n tr a r y I

in s t r u c t e d m y PA t o s e n d a n e m a il t h a t y e s I d o w a n t th e m t o c o n t in u e
p r o c e s s in g t h e a p p li c a t io n a n d t h e n l e t u s k n o w s o t h a t w e c a n i n f o r m
t h e I n d ia n H i g h C o m m i s s i o n a b o u t t h e o u t c o m e t h e r e o f a n d I h a d a s k e d
m y PA t o a ls o c o p y t w o o f S e n i o r M a n a g e r s in t h e p r o c e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:
hide.
10

B e c a u s e I h a d n o is s u e s t o

S o w h y w o u ld I h a v e – I w o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d t h e r e f o r e t h a t I

c a n n o t p u t i t i n w r i t in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s a y y o u n e v e r s a id t h a t o r y o u c a n n o t

r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u s a y – y o u s a i d it t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t o n t h i s p a g e
is

a t tr ib u t e d

to

you

and

it

is

said

that

it

came

fr o m

Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r N ts h is i .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : N o C h a ir u n f o r tu n a te ly l ik e I
s a i d I d o n o t r e c a l l a t a l l s o m e o f t h e s e t h i n g s b e c u e o f t h e ti m e l a g
a n d u n f o r tu n a te ly h a d t h e J C P S Te a m c a l le d m e a t t h a t ti m e w h e n a l l
w a s f r e s h i n m y m i n d I w o u ld h a v e b e e n i n a b e t t e r p o s i ti o n t o r e s p o n d
…
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : B u t n o w I a m s i tt i n g w i th th is
s ix a n d a h a l f - m o r e th a n s i x y e a r s l a te r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A n d o b v i o u s l y i t is s o m e t h in g
I h a v e b e e n t r y i n g t o p u t b e h in d m y b a c k i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: So I do not have a very vivid
o r a c c u r a t e r e c o ll e c t i o n o f s o m e o f t h e s e q u e n c in g a n d s o m e o f t h e
is s u e s t h a t h a d t r a n s p i r e d th e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. So you …
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: But of course …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : L ik e I s a i d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e fi n i s h .
10

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A n d o f c o u r s e l ik e I s a i d I a m
tr y i n g t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h th e C o m m is s i o n t o t h e b e s t o f m y a b il i ty
d e s p i te t h e c h a ll e n g e s th a t I h a v e i n d ic a t e d g e t ti n g t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t.
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Some

i n fo r m a t i o n

–

d o c u m e n ts o n Fr i d a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

And

having

to

tr y

and

s q u e e z e w i t h my le g a l c o u n s e l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : B a s e d o n th e ir a v a il a b i li ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Tr y t o r e c o ll e c t a n d r e c a ll

s o m e o f t h e t h in g s . It is r a th e r d i ff ic u l t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

Page 160 of 183

But nonetheless I am not

08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
u s i n g th is a s a n e x c u s e fo r a n y t h i n g . I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o s a y t h a t I m a y
n o t h a v e a f a ir r e c o l le c t i o n w h e n i t c o m e s t o d a t e o r t h e ti m i n g f o r
example.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I k n o w t h a t y o u r l e g a l t e a m d i d a s k t h a t y o u b e
g iv e n a c h a n c e to g i v e e v id e n c e th is w e e k to w h i c h I a g r e e d a n d I s a id
M o n d a y a t t h e ti m e w e s p o k e . I t h i n k i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n Tu e s d a y o r
W e d n e s d a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : It w a s o n Tu e s d a y, C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n Tu e s d a y. I k n o w t h a t a t th a t t i m e y o u r l e g a l t e a m
10

a n d y o u w e r e s ti ll w a i t in g t o b e f u r n i s h e d w i t h c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts a n d I
k n o w t h a t , I t h i n k M s N o r m a n i n d ic a te d o r s o m e b o d y in d ic a t e d f r o m t h e
le g a l te a m t h a t y o u w o u ld b e g iv e n d o c u m e n t s a s s o o n a s p o s s i b l e . I d o
n o t t h i n k a t t h a t s t a g e t h e r e w a s a n y c o n t e m p l a ti o n o f a d e la y i n t e r m s
o f d o c u m e n ts th a t t h e C o m m is s i o n d id h a v e a lr e a d y b u t y o u h a v e
in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u o n ly g o t s o m e o n Fr i d a y. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a ir, f ir s t c o r r e c ti o n is t h a t
the request was made on Wednesday when we came here not on
Tu e s d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.

20

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: It was not Wednesday and we
w e r e p r o m is e d t h a t w e w il l g e t t h e m o n W e d n e s d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : B u t u n f o r tu n a te ly w e o n ly g o t
t h e fi r s t b a tc h o n T h u r s d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : S o I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o i n d ic a te
t h e s e q u e n c in g a n d i f y o u l o o k a t th e b u lk i n e s s o f t h e in f o r m a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

W e a r e to d e a l w i th , i t i s , I

t h i n k i t i s y o u k n o w. I t is … ( i n d i s t i n c t) I m e a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : O t h e r w is e I c o u l d h a v e u s e d
a n a r g u m e n t t h a t I h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n e n o u g h t i m e , I n e e d a m o n t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE:

I r e q u e s te d a m o n th s ’

e x t e n s i o n b u t I j u s t w a n t e d t o s u b j e c t m y s e l f t o t h is p r o c e s s s o t h a t I
c a n c o n t in u e w i th m y w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y le t m e t e l l y o u s o m e t h i n g i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e

C o m m i s s i o n t h a t m a y a s s i s t. T h e C o m m i s s io n w a s g o i n g t o s i t
t o m o r r o w in o r d e r t o h e a r o th e r e v i d e n c e b u t h a v e b e e n t o l d t h a t t h e
w i t n e s s w a s g o in g t o g iv e e v id e n c e t o m o r r o w is n o t a b l e t o d o s o d u e
t o fa m i ly s i t u a t io n . N o w I w o n d e r w h e th e r t o t h e e x te n t t h a t y o u m a y
h a v e a c o m p l a i n t o r c o n c e r n t h a t y o u h a v e n o t h a d e n o u g h ti m e to l o o k
a t th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n , y o u th in k i t w o u l d h e lp i f w e a d jo u r n e d a n d
20

a l lo w e d t i m e a n d t h e n c o m e b a c k t o m o r r o w. I u n d e r s t a n d y o u o n ly n e e d
t o l e a v e la t e r fo r I a s s u m e t h e N e t h e r la n d s ?
AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : N o , w e c a n c o n t in u e , c h a ir. I
w a s ju s t i n d i c a t in g b e c a u s e I d o n o t r e a lly b e l ie v e th a t i f w e e x te n d u p

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
u n t il t o m o r r o w g iv e n t h a t m y l e g a l c o u n s e l a ls o h a s g o t o t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : L e g a l o b l i g a t io n s w i t h o t h e r
c li e n t s … ( i n d is ti n c t) h a v e t i m e to c o n s u l t w it h th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : S o I m i g h t j u s t a s w e ll , it w il l
ju s t b e a w a s t e o f t h e C h a ir ’s ti m e a s w e l l a s th a t o f th e C o m m i s s i o n t o
do so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , i t is fi n e a n d I w i ll a s k w h a t y o u r C o u n s e l ’s
10

a tt i tu d e i s . I a m s a y i n g t h i s b e c a u s e w e d o w a n t to m a k e s u r e t h a t
e v e r y o n e f e e l s th a t t h e y h a v e a f a ir o p p o r tu n it y. L e t m e h e a r i f y o u r
C o u n s e l h a s a n y th i n g t o s a y in r e g a r d t o t h is . W h e r e w e c a n w e w o u l d
n o t l ik e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e l a t e r w h e n e v e r y t h i n g is d o n e th e r e is s ti ll a
f e e li n g t h a t h a d I b e e n g i v e n a l i tt l e b i t m o r e ti m e , y o u k n o w I m a y h a v e
d e a lt w i t h i s s u e s d i ffe r e n tl y. Ye s , C o u n s e l ?
LEGAL COUNSEL:

C h a ir, in t h e g r e a te r s c h e m e o f t h i n g s th e

d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n a j o u r n e y n o w a n d c o n t in u i n g is r e a l ly n e g l i g i b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:
20

W e , t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s t h a t w e h a v e h a d t h u s fa r i s

g iv e n t h e p e c u l i a r n a tu r e o f t h i s w i t n e s s d o e s h a v i n g b e e n p o s t e d
overseas.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L E G A L C O U N S E L : I t is d i ffi c u l t to c o o r d i n a t e . S o w e t h o u g h t i t b e s t i n
a n e ffo r t to b e c o r p o r a ti v e to tr y a n d u s e t h e ti m e a s f r u i tf u lly a s
p o s s i b le .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : A n d th a t r e m a i n s o u r i n s tr u c ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
LEGAL COUNSEL: But we of course.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:

I a m c o n s tr a i n e d t o r e s e r v e my c li e n t ’s r ig h ts

o b v i o u s l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:
10

G iv e n t h e a m o u n t o f t i m e b u t r e a lly I th in k i n

e s s e n c e w h a t w e a r e s a y i n g is .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
LEGAL COUNSEL:

I f w e r e a l ly w a n t t o u t il iz e th e ti m e f u l ly a s a

n o r m a l w i tn e s s w o u ld a n d l e a v in g a s id e o u r e ffo r t s to t r y a n d b e a s
c o r p o r a t iv e a s p o s s i b l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L E G A L C O U N S E L : W e l l t h e n , it w o u l d n o t b e p o s s i b le t o g iv e e v i d e n c e
t h is w e e k . W e w o u l d h a v e to a d j o u r n a n d h e w o u ld h a v e t o c o m e b a c k
at a later date.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

LEGAL COUNSEL:

W e d o n o t w a n t t o g o t h e r e a s p r e s e n tl y a d v is e d .

W e w a n t to u s e th e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja
L E G A L C O U N S E L : A n d s o o u r a t t i tu d e a t t h is s t a g e i s w e w o u l d li k e to
c o n ti n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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L E G A L C O U N S E L : B u t w i t h a r e s e r v a t io n o f r i g h t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a l r i g h t th a n k y o u . I t h i n k w h a t y o u r c o u n s e l
h a s s a i d s e e m s to b e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s , C h a ir. A n d a g a i n m a y b e
I m a y ju s t a ls o a d d o n e t h i n g t o w a r d w h a t m y l e g a l c o u n s e l h a s s a id .
T h a t o u r r e s e r v a ti o n s d o n o t o n ly e m a n a t e fr o m t h e t i mi n g b u t a ls o fr o m
t h e f a c t t h a t w h e n w e r e q u e s te d s o m e o f t h e t e s t i m o n y t h a t w a s u t il iz e d
by the former people who appeared before this Commission we were
t o l d t h a t t h a t is c l a s s i fi e d , w e c a n n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o it a n d y e t i t w a s
10

a d m i s s i b le t o b e u s e d h e r e p a r ti c u la r ly i m p lic a ti n g m e . S o i n t e r m s o f
b e i n g a b l e t o p r e p a r e m y s e lf p r o p e r ly I f e e l t h a t m y r i g h t s w e r e
p r e j u d ic e d b e c a u s e I a m e n g a g i n g w i t h p e o p l e w h o h a v e p r o b a b ly s e e n ,
lis t e n e d a n d h e a r d w h a t t h e y a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a n d g iv e n t h a t a s ix y e a r p e r i o d h a d l a p s e d . I h a v e b e e n d e n i e d th a t r i g h t to a ls o h a v e t h e
s a m e a c c e s s b u t y e t t h e in f o r m a t io n i s a d m is s i b l e to b e u ti li z e d b y t h is
w h o a r e l e a d in g t h e i n t e r r o g a t i o n . S o I a m ju s t f e e l in g , C h a ir, a n d a g a i n
p l e a s e b e a r w i th m e f o r m y n a ïv e t é . I m a y n o t n e c e s s a r il y u n d e r s ta n d
t h a t y o u k n o w c e r t a i n p r o c e s s e s m a y b e a ll o w e d fo r t h o s e w h o a r e
le a d i n g e v id e n c e t o h a v e , t o b e t h e o n l y o n e s w i th a c c e s s t o c e r t a in

20

in f o r m a ti o n a n d t h o s e a ff e c t e d b e d e n ie d b e c a u s e o f i t b e i n g e x c l u s iv e .
Yo u k n o w, b u t to a la y p e r s o n i t s a y s t h e r e is s o m e th in g j u s t n o t r i g h t .
Yo u k n o w, th a t is a l l I w a s ju s t tr y i n g t o s a y, C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , I d o n o t k n o w e x a c tl y w h a t d o c u m e n t s y o u h a v e
in m i n d b u t t h e r e is n o d o c u m e n t t h a t I a m a w a r e o f a s w e s p e a k t h a t
t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s w h ic h m a y n o t b e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o y o u . W h e t h e r

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o r n o t i t m a y h a v e b e e n a v a il a b l e s o m e t i m e la s t w e e k I d o n o t k n o w b u t
as I speak now I am not aware of a document that may not be made
a v a i la b le t o y o u . B u t I d o k n o w t h a t o n T h u r s d a y, a s T h u r s d a y t h e r e
w a s a t r a n s c r i p t o r r e c o r d i n g th a t t h e C o m m is s i o n h a d w a n te d w h i c h i s
n o t b e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d d e s p i te c e r t a i n p r o m i s e s
h a v e b e e n m a d e . A n d I d r e w th a t t o th e a t t e n t io n o f t h e C h i e f o f t h e A ir
F o r c e w h o w a s g i v i n g e v i d e n c e a n d a s k e d h i m t o f a c il i ta t e th e r e l e a s e
o f t h e d o c u m e n t o r t h e r e c o r d in g w h i c h h e u n d e r t o o k t o l o o k i n to a n d
o v e r t h e w e e k e n d o r o n Fr i d a y I w a s to l d t h a t e it h e r t h a t h a d b e e n
10

m a d e a v a i la b l e a t s o m e s t a g e o r w a s g o i n g t o b e m a d e a v a i la b le o v e r
t h e w e e k e n d . S o t o t h e e x t e n t th a t y o u m i g h t r e f e r t o t h a t , I c a n a s s u r e
y o u t h a t I h a v e n o t s e e n i t b u t I h a v e b e e n t o l d t h a t i t is th e r e . I h a v e
n o t e v e n s e e n i t m y s e l f . I w a s to l d t h a t t h e r e w a s I t h i n k a m e m o r y s t ic k
o r s o m e th i n g lik e th a t a n d i t w a s le f t a t t h e g a t e w i t h t h e p o l ic e a t m y
o ffic i a l r e s i d e n c e . I w a s t o l d b u t i t h a s n e v e r r e a c h e d m e . S o a s w e
s p e a k I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t th a t . B u t a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u w a n t t o h a v e
s ig h t o f n o b o d y c a n o r s h o u ld d e n y t h a t w it h o u t m e h a v i n g a f in a l s a y.
I f a n y b o d y s a y s y o u a r e n o t e n t i tl e d t o h a v e i t , y o u c a n r a is e t h a t y o u r
la w y e r s w i t h m e a n d th e n I c a n h e a r w h a t t h e p r o b le m is a n d c a n m a k e

20

a r u l i n g . S o I j u s t w a n t t o m e n t io n t h a t p a r t b u t I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e r e
a r e o t h e r p a r ts b u t I s e e y o u r c o u n s e l is b a c k in fr o n t o f m e . S o I t h in k
m a y b e p r o b a b ly w o u ld p r e fe r t h a t h e s p e a k s .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. Ye s , C h a ir, y o u r c h a r a c t e r i z a t io n
o f th e e v e n t s is w h a t w a s r e l a y e d t o u s a n d w e c e r t a i n ly h a v e n o
r e a s o n t o d o u b t t h a t . B u t w h e r e w e h a v e s o m e c o n c e r n is n o t th a t

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
n e c e s s a r i ly

the

documents

are

being

or

recordings

are

being

d e li b e r a t e ly w i t h h e l d b u t t h a t o n c e t h e y a r e b e c o m in g a v a i la b le , th e y
b e c o m e a v a il a b l e d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f th e t e s t i m o n y a n d t h e w i tn e s s
d o e s n o t h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to c o n s id e r t h e m b e fo r e h e is q u e s ti o n e d
in r e l a ti o n t o t h e c o n te n ts o f t h o s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:

S o w h a t s p r i n g s t o m i n d in p a r ti c u la r is s p e c i fic

r e c o r d i n g s th a t I b e li e v e a r e o n r e c o r d a s h a v i n g b e e n h e l d b e t w e e n
t h e A m b a s s a d o r a n d C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a n d i n m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d ’s
10

q u e s t io n in g th is m o r n in g s h e d id t o u c h o n s o m e o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s .
A n d I w it h h e l d a n o b je c t i o n t o t h a t p o i n t b u t w e p la c e o n r e c o r d n o w
t h a t w e h a v e s o m e c o n c e r n i f th e r e i s g o i n g t o b e q u e s ti o n i n g i n r e g a r d
t o t h o s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s b e f o r e w e h a v e h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o li s te n t o
t h o s e r e c o r d i n g s . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o w i t h s p e c ia l r e f e r e n c e to th a t o n e , I m e a n t o
t h e r e c o r d in g t o w h ic h I h a v e m a d e r e f e r e n c e , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t
t h e e v id e n c e l e a d e r i n t e n d e d t o l e a d e v i d e n c e o n th a t a n d to a s k m e f o r
le a v e t o p la y i t . B u t i f y o u h a v e n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o li s t e n t o i t a n d h e
h a s n o t h a d a c h a n c e , I w o u l d b e i n c li n e d t o t h i n k t h a t m i g h t b e a

20

r e a s o n fo r u s t o a d j o u r n a n d t h e n c o n t i n u e to m o r r o w s o t h a t y o u g e t
t h a t o p p o r tu n it y t o d o t h a t . W h a t is y o u r a t ti t u d e t o t h a t?
LEGAL COUNSEL:

Ye s , C h a ir. T h a t i s c e r ta i n ly s o m e t h i n g w e w o u ld

w a n t t o t a k e y o u u p o n th a t o ff e r a n d o f c o u r s e t h a t g o e s f o r a n y
r e c o r d i n g s o r a n y d o c u m e n t s th a t a r e i n t e n d e d t o b e u s e d I t h i n k t h a t i s
a m a tt e r o f p r i n c i p le .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, but what it does also even though you and your

c li e n t m i g h t h a v e ta k e n a d i ff e r e n t v ie w i s th a t i t a ls o d o e s g i v e h i m
a n d y o u r s e lv e s a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o lo o k a t a n y o t h e r d o c u m e n t s t h a t h a v e
b e e n g iv e n t o y o u o n w h ic h h e m i g h t n o t h a v e h a d ti m e t o r e f l e c t
p r o p e r ly.

And

then

when

we

c o n t in u e

to m o r r o w

h o p e f u l ly,

the

d o c u m e n ts t h a t h e m i g h t n o t h a v e h a d e n o u g h ti m e t o l o o k a t . H e m i g h t
h a v e h a d s o m e m o r e ti m e .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : Ye s , C h a ir, I a m n o t s u r e i t n e c e s s a r i ly s o lv e s t h e
p r o b le m c o m p l e t e ly.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : I t m i ti g a t e s t h e p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i t m i ti g a te s , j a .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : C e r t a i n l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y th a n k y o u . M s N o r m a n ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: What you have to say about these things?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N :

C h a ir, t h e r e w e r e o n l y n o d o c u m e n ts t h a t

w e r e w i th h e l d o n th e b a s is t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t to b e m a d e a v a i la b le t o
the witness.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

T h e o n ly d o c u m e n t t h a t h a d n o t b e e n

d e c l a s s i fi e d a s o f th is m o r n in g w a s t h e F F 1 2 w h ic h I r e f e r r e d th e
c h a ir p e r s o n t o w h ic h is t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e f r o m t h e Pr e s i d e n c y
a n d a ls o t h e D I R C O r e p o r t w h i c h is a t t a c h e d to A m b a s s a d o r M a tj il a ’s
evidence.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : W e g o t t h e n th e d e c la s s if ic a ti o n fr o m t h e D G
o f D I R C O i n s o fa r a s t h a t r e p o r t i s c o n c e r n e d . T h a t is t h e o n e th in g . T h e
s e c o n d t h in g , th e r e c o r d in g w a s m a d e a v a i la b le t o m e y e s te r d a y
a ft e r n o o n o n S u n d a y a n d I d i d m e n t io n t o t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s o f t h e , o f
A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e . T h a t th a t r e c o r d i n g is n o t m a d e a v a il a b l e t o m e
b u t i t is m a d e a v a i la b le to t h e c h a ir p e r s o n a n d I c a n n o t s i m p ly j u s t p l a y
it w i t h o u t th e c h a ir p e r s o n g i v i n g m e a u th o r i t y t o d o th a t . A n d th is i s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e d i s c u s s e d d u r i n g t h e l u n c h , t h e lo n g b r e a k . I h a v e
10

n o d i ff ic u l ty w i t h a n a d j o u r n m e n t b u t I a m ju s t c o n c e r n e d M is t e r
C h a ir m a n th a t w e m a y c o m e b a c k to m o r r o w a n d t h e n t h e w i t n e s s
t e s ti fi e s t o m o r r o w a n d h e g o e s b a c k a n d s a y s b u t s ti ll t h e r e is
s o m e t h i n g t h a t I d i d n o t g e t . I w o u l d p r e fe r a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e
w i t n e s s b e c a u s e h e h a s b e e n b r o u g h t h e r e b y th e C o m m i s s io n t h e
C o m m i s s i o n ’s e x p e n s e . I f t h e w i t n e s s i s o f t h e v ie w t h a t h e h a s n o t
b e e n a ff o r d e d a d e q u a t e o p p o r t u n i ty fo r h i m t o p r e p a r e t h o r o u g h ly, I
w o u ld p r e f e r a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e h e i s g i v e n t h e ti m e t h a t h e w a n ts . S o
t h a t h e d o e s n o t c o m e b a c k l a t e r o n a n d s a y l o o k I w a s n o t a ff o r d e d
a d e q u a t e o p p o r tu n it y. I a m c o n c e r n e d , c h a ir, th a t i f y o u lis t e n to t h e

20

r e c o r d i n g s to n ig h t a n d th e n h e c o m e s b a c k to m o r r o w m o r n i n g a n d
c e r t a i n q u e s t i o n s a r e a s k e d a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s a s a w h o le a g a i n
t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g , h e m a y a g a i n s a y lo o k i f t h e c l u s t e r h a d a s k e d m e
t h is I w o u l d h a v e to ld t h e m t h is . I a m n o t c o m f o r ta b le w i th t h e a p p r o a c h
t h a t t h e y a r e a d o p t in g b e c a u s e t h e C o m m i s s i o n d o e s n o t h a v e t i m e . W e
c a n n o t k e e p o n g o i n g b a c k t o m a t te r s s i m p ly b e c a u s e p e o p l e a r e n o t

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c o m f o r t a b l e . I th i n k I w o u l d s u g g e s t , c h a ir, t h a t t h e b e s t w a y t h e y m u s t
in d i c a t e to t h e c h a ir, h o w m u c h ti m e d o t h e y r e q u ir e to p r e p a r e fu ll y
a n d th e n o n c e t h e y h a v e g i v e n th a t i n d ic a ti o n , c h a ir, a ff o r d s th e m t h a t
o p p o r t u n i ty. S o t h a t w h e n th e y c o m e b a c k h e is r e a d y t o a n s w e r a ll th e
q u e s t io n s a n d p r o b a b l y h e m i g h t e v e n w a n t to p r e p a r e a s ta t e m e n t a n d
d e a l w it h t h e J C P S c lu s t e r r e p o r t in w h o l e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h d o c u m e n ts ? A lr ig h t l e t m e p u t i t t h is w a y. A s a t
W e d n e s d a y la s t w e e k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , c h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n h e h a s c o u n s e l r e q u e s t e d t h a t h e g iv e s

evidence this week and not last week.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d o c u m e n ts h a v e t h e y b e e n g i v e n a lr e a d y a n d

w h a t d o c u m e n ts h a d th e y n o t b e g iv e n ? Yo u s e e t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f
d o c u m e n ts t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t t o h is e v i d e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f f o r e x a m p le o n e g o e s b y w h e n t h e y h a d h o w

m u c h o f t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d w h a t e v e r w a s le f t o n e k n o w s e x a c tl y w h a t
w a s o u t s t a n d i n g a n d w h e n t h e p a r t t h a t w a s o u t s t a n d i n g w a s g iv e n t o
20

him.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e n I a m in a p o s i ti o n t o a s s e s s w h e t h e r t h e d a y s

t h a t h e h a d , t h e ti m e t h a t h e h a s h a d i s a d e q u a t e . B u t i f I d o n o t k n o w
w h e n h e g o t w h a t th e n is d i ff ic u l t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

C h a ir, I c a n e a s i ly e s t a b l is h th a t b e c a u s e

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M is t e r D e r e k D e B e e r w h o is t h e o n e w h o s e n t t h e f ir s t b a t c h o f
d o c u m e n ts t h a t w a s r e q u e s t e d w e r e g i v e n b e c a u s e o n W e d n e s d a y I
t h i n k th e y h a d a p r o b l e m w i th t h e l i n k . Th e y w e r e g iv e n t h e li n k a n d I
t h i n k th e y g o t s o m e d o c u m e n ts a n d th e y d i d n o t g e t s o m e , i f m y
memory serves me well. On Thursday then there was another request
m a d e w i t h a lo n g li s t o f d o c u m e n t s t h a t t h e y r e q u e s t e d . S o m e o f th o s e
w e r e n o t i n o u r p o s s e s s i o n . F o r i n s ta n c e , t h e y w a n te d t h e c e r t a i n
A n n e x u r e s t o t h e r e p o r t a n d t h e y w a n t e d t h e a u d io s t h a t w e a r e t a l k i n g
a b o u t w h i c h w e d o n o t h a v e a n d I w a s a d v is e d b y th e s e c r e ta r y o f th e
10

C o m m i s s i o n th a t o n Fr i d a y a li n k w a s a l s o g iv e n i n r e s p e c t o f t h o s e
d o c u m e n ts . B u t t h e n a t th e ti m e w h e n t h a t w a s e s ta b l is h e d , t h e r e w a s
a lr e a d y a le t t e r t h a t h a d b e e n r e c e iv e d fr o m A m b a s s a d o r ’s l a w y e r s
s a y in g th a t y o u s t il l h a v e n o t g iv e n u s d o c u m e n ts a n d w e to o k a n d w e
w e n t t o M r, t o D e r e k , M is t e r D e B e e r a n d w a s s a id to h i m , p le a s e c h e c k
w h e t h e r t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u s e n t h a v e b e e n d o w n lo a d e d . A n d h e
c o n fir m e d th a t y e s t h e y h a d b e e n r e c e iv e d a n d t h e r e w a s o n e d o w n l o a d
a n d th e l e t te r h a d t o b e c a u s e d t o b e w r it t e n t o s a y, w e c o n f ir m th a t
t h a t h a s b e e n s e n t a n d th e r e h a s b e e n a d o w n lo a d a l r e a d y. B u t w i t h o u t
g iv i n g e v id e n c e fr o m t h e b a r I c o u l d e s t a b li s h a l l o f th a t i n f o r m a t i o n

20

a n d I w o u l d g iv e i t to t h e C h a ir e x a c tl y w h a t w a s g iv e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

That

would

have

been

when?

Wednesday

or

Thursday?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N :

T h a t w a s o n T h u r s d a y. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n ,

c h a ir. I a m c o n f u s in g i t b e c a u s e w e d i d n o t s it o n Fr i d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a t w a s o n T h u r s d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: On Thursday?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , y e s b u t I c o u l d e s ta b l is h , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o o n y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g , i f t h e r e w e r e d o c u m e n t s

t h a t y o u t h i n k M i s t e r D e B e e r s e n t o n T h u r s d a y w e r e s e n t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m u c h w a s o u ts t a n d in g b y th e e n d o f th e d a y o r
b y Fr id a y m o r n in g ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s th a t h e w o u l d h a v e s e n t
10

e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h e h a d i n h is p o s s e s s i o n b e c a u s e h e e x tr a c t e d m o s t o f
t h e d o c u m e n ts . I w a s , I r e m e m b e r t h a t I w a s u p s e t w it h h i m t h a t h e d i d
n o t s e n d t h e m e a r ly o n Th u r s d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : B u t b e c a u s e h e h a d to e x tr a c t t h o s e m a t t e r s
t h a t a r e r e le v a n t a n d to A m b a s s a d o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h e n t h a t to o k a w h il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g I h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d

20

a n y th in g li k e a s o f t o d a y t o s a y y o u h a v e n o t g iv e n u s th is p a r ti c u la r
fi le .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O r s o m e t h i n g li k e th a t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h a t is f i n e . O f c o u r s e w e a r e n o t in a s i t u a t i o n
w h e r e A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e f o r h is le g a l t e a m c a m e th is m o r n i n g a n d

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
s a i d w e a r e n o t r e a d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e n e e d m o r e ti m e . T h a t is n o t t h e s i t u a t io n b u t w e
w a n t to m a k e s u r e , I w a n t to m a k e s u r e a s f a r a s p o s s i b l e t h a t t h e r e is
f a ir n e s s t o e v e r y b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e th a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n m a t t e r s t h a t w e c a n
s t il l c o v e r t h is a f te r n o o n a n d m a y b e o t h e r s to m o r r o w ; th a t is o n e o p t io n
b u t i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t m a y b e if c e r ta in is s u e s a r e q u i t e c e n tr a l to
10

e v e r y t h i n g t h a t m a y b e w e s h o u ld a d j o u r n u n ti l t o m o r r o w i n th e h o p e
t h a t th is w o u ld a d d t o t h e t i m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f M is t e r K o l o a n e ’s c o u n s e l c o m e t o m o r r o w a n d

m a k e a n a p p li c a t io n fo r a n d t h e y s a y t h e y c a n n o t c o n t in u e ; M r K o lo a n e
c a n n o t c o n t in u e t h e n w e t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . Th e y w o u ld h a v e t o m a k e
a n a p p l ic a ti o n fo r a p o s tp o n e m e n t i f t h a t i s th e c a s e . M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g
is t h a t t h e y w o u l d l ik e to a v o i d th a t . Th e y w o u l d l ik e th a t t h is ti m e b e
u s e d a s m u c h a s p o s s ib le . B u t I th i n k y o u m a k e th e p o in t th a t t h e y
m i g h t h a v e to b e p u t t o a n y e le c t i o n s o t h a t w e d o n o t h a v e a s i tu a ti o n
20

w h e r e w e s p e n d t h is ti m e a n d g o o n a n d t h e n l a t e r o n th e y s a y th e r e
w a s f a i r n e s s b e c a u s e th e y w e r e n o t g iv e n t i m e . W h e r e a s i f t h e y s a y
lo o k is n o t g o in g t o b e fa ir, w e n e e d m o r e t i m e . W e m i g h t d e c id e t o , s a y
o k a y i f t h e y h a v e m a k e o u t a g o o d c a s e w e w i ll a d jo u r n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e I th i n k w h a t y o u h a v e i n m in d is , i f w e

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
p r o c e e d n o t k n o w in g w h e r e t h e y s ta n d i t m i g h t d e fe a t t h e w h o l e
purpose.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u , c h a ir. C h a ir m i g h t I a l s o m e n t io n ,
c h a ir t h a t b e c a u s e w e a n t ic ip a t e d t h a t w e w o u ld p la y t h e a u d i o a t th is
h e a r in g , w e h a d in v i t e d M a jo r N ts h is i t o b e p r e s e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : S o t h a t w e d o n o t h a v e t o r e p la y i t w h e n h e i s
r e c a l l e d b y th e C o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN:

M a y b e w it h y o u r le a v e , c h a ir, w o u ld i t b e

p o s s i b le to a ll o w t h e p l a y o f t h a t . T h e o n e r e c o r d i n g i s fi v e m i n u t e s .
T h a t is th e r e c o r d i n g b e tw e e n A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d M a jo r N ts h i s i .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : A n d t h e n th e o t h e r o n e is 2 2 m in u t e s w h ic h is
v a r io u s r e c o r d i n g s o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s b e t w e e n M a j o r N ts h is i a n d
o th e r o ffic i a ls .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll , I a m r e l u c ta n t t o a l lo w t h e p la y i n g o f t h e

r e c o r d i n g b e fo r e t h e y c a n h e a r i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : As C h a ir p l e a s e s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t l e t m e h e a r w h a t c o u n s e l fo r M i s te r K o l o a n e h a s
t o s a y a n d t h e n w e t r y a n d f i n a li z e t h is .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : T h a n k y o u , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
L E G A L C O U N S E L : A g a i n i n r e g a r d t o th e p r o d u c t i o n o f d o c u m e n ts , w e
d o n o t p o in t f i n g e r s a t a n y o n e t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h e y w e r e n o t g i v e n .
We do not suggest that was not purpose.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : A n d y o u k n o w th e C o m m is s i o n d o e s w h a t i t c a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:

W e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t w e w o u l d r e c e iv e d o c u m e n t s

la t e i n t h e d a y o n W e d n e s d a y. T h a t w e u n d e r s t o o d it w a s u n d e r t a k e n
w h ic h w a s g iv e n . W e u n d e r s t a n d a n d w e a c c e p t a t f a c e v a l u e w h a t m y
10

le a r n e d fr i e n d s a y s t h a t th a t a t t e m p t w a s m a d e a n d th a t a l in k w a s s e n t
o n t h e W e d n e s d a y b u t i t w a s n o t r e c e iv e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:

O n t h e Th u r s d a y, a li n k w a s s e n t a n d th a t is

a tt a c h e d a p p r o x i m a t e ly, w i ll n o t a p p r o x i m a t e l y 5 1 9 p a g e s ’ w o r t h o f
d o c u m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:

A n d t h e n o n F r i d a y a ft e r n o o n , a f u r th e r l in k w a s

s e n t, s o r r y t h e n I t h i n k . Ye s , o n th e Fr i d a y f o r t h e li n k w a s s e n t a n d
t h a t a l t h o u g h t h e r e w a s s o m e d u p li c a t io n b e t w e e n t h e f ir s t b u n d l e a n d
20

t h e s e c o n d b u n d le n o w c o n ta i n s 7 7 6 p a g e s o f d o c u m e n t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:

What the Ambassador had been given prior to

a p p e a r i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e o n W e d n e s d a y w a s n o th i n g m o r e t h a n o n ly
t h e R u l e 3 . 3 n o ti c e w h ic h a t t a c h e d t o i t a n A n n e x u r e A a n d a n A n n e x u r e
B w h i c h is c o m p r i s e d o f M s S i d a n e ’s s t a te m e n t a s A n n e x u r e A a n d

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J C P S c l u s t e r r e p o r t w i th o u t a n y A n n e x u r e s a s A n n e x u r e B . T h a t is a ll
that he had before.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L E G A L C O U N S E L : S o y o u w il l a p p r e c ia t e C h a ir, t h a t i t is a v o lu m i n o u s
e x t e n t o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
LEGAL COUNSEL:

W e d o v o ic e o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e p r o s p e c t o f

h a v i n g th e r e c o r d i n g s p l a y e d b e f o r e w e h a v e h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o
lis t e n t o th e m w h i c h a d d s t o th a t .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
LEGAL COUNSEL:

W h a t y o u , a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t C h a ir n o w h a v e i s a

s u g g e s t io n b y m y l e a r n e d fr ie n d th a t r a t h e r t h a n p u t ti n g u s t o p r e s s u r e
a n d tr y in g t o d o i t a ll t h i s w e e k th a t p e r h a p s w e a r r a n g e a m u t u a ll y
c o n v e n i e n t d a t e s i n t h e fu ll n e s s o f ti m e . A n d t h e A m b a s s a d o r w il l t h e n
g o b a c k t o t h e N e t h e r l a n d s a n d b y w a y o f a n a r r a n g e m e n t w e w i ll th e n
c o m e b a c k i n a fe w w e e k s o r m o n t h s o r w h a t e v e r it is . I h a v e n o t h a d
a n o p p o r tu n i t y to t a k e i n s tr u c ti o n s o n t h a t . I t s e e m s s o m e w h a t s e n s i b l e
t o m e a s I a m s t a n d in g o n m y f e e t b u t h o n e s tly a l l o f th is is s u b j e c t t o
w h a t y o u m a y r o l l o f c o u r s e , Mr C h a ir. S o i n r e g a r d t o i f t h e r e i s a
20

s u g g e s t io n t h a t h e m u s t e i t h e r b e p u t t o a n y e l e c t io n a n d b e h e l d b y i t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L E G A L C O U N S E L : A n d i f t h e r e i s a s u g g e s ti o n th a t a s a n a l t e r n a t iv e
t o t h a t w e , m y le a r n e d fr i e n d a n d I t a l k e d a b o u t m u t u a l ly c o n v e n i e n t
d a t e s i n th e f u l ln e s s o f t i m e , I w i ll n e e d a n o p p o r tu n i t y to t a k e
in s t r u c t i o n s o n e i th e r o f t h o s e .

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
L E G A L C O U N S E L : B u t p e r h a p s I c o u ld i n q u ir e a s a m a t t e r o f p r i n c ip le ,
c h a ir, w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d b e r e c e p tiv e t o e it h e r o f t h o s e a p p r o a c h e s
p e r h a p s a r r a n g i n g d a te s in d u e c o u r s e o r w h e th e r y o u w o u l d in s i s t o n
t h e m a t t e r p r e c e d i n g th is w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , I w o u l d lik e u s t o m a k e u s e o f t h e t i m e t h a t h a s
b e e n s e t a s i d e u n l e s s t h e r e is .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : P r e j u d ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

U n l e s s t h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e u n f a ir n e s s t o h i m a n d i f

t h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e u n fa ir n e s s i t w o u l d n o t b e o n t h e b a s is t h a t th e
n e x t ti m e h e c o m e s w o u ld n e c e s s a r i ly d e p e n d o n a g r e e d d a te s . W e
w a n t to tr y a n d w e t a lk t o p e o p l e w h o a r e c o n c e r n e d a s fa r a s p o s s i b l e
b u t w e w a n t t o r e t a i n t h e r ig h t to f ix th e d a te s b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e i f y o u
a r e g o in g to w a i t u n ti l e v e r y b o d y h a s a g r e e d y o u w i ll n o t g e t a n y w h e r e .
S o s u b je c t to th a t I w o u l d li k e o n ly t o c o n s i d e r a n a d j o u r n m e n t t h a t
g o e s b e y o n d t o d o to m o r r o w o r th is w e e k o n l y i f I a m m a d e to
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t o th e r w i s e th e r e w o u l d b e u n f a i r n e s s a n d t h e u n f a ir n e s s
I th in k w o u l d ; i t w i ll b e a q u e s t io n o f w h e t h e r b e a r i n g i n mi n d w h a t h e
w o u ld b e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s a b o u t . W h e t h e r h e h a s b e e n g i v e n a d e q u a t e

20

ti m e o f l o o k i n g a t t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d s o o n . S o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e r e
w o u ld h a v e to b e , I w o u ld h a v e to b e c o n v in c e d . A t th is s t a g e , I r e m a i n
o p e n t o b e p e r s u a d e d . I a m i n c li n e d t o t h i n k t h a t i t o u g h t t o b e p o s s i b le
f o r u s to c o n t in u e a n d fi n a l iz e w i th o u t a n y u n f a ir n e s s t o a n y b o d y
p a r t ic u l a r ly if w e a r e g o i n g to a d j o u r n to a l l o w m o r e t i m e u n t il
t o m o r r o w. B u t i f y o u r s i d e t a k e s t h e v i e w t h a t d e fi n i t e ly is g o in g t o b e

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u n f a i r n e s s a n d i t w o u l d r a th e r a p p ly f o r a n a d j o u r n m e n t , a l o n g
a d j o u r n m e n t t h e n I w o u l d c o n s i d e r t h a t a t th a t ti m e a n d lo o k a t t h e
g r o u n d s . Th a t is w h y I h a v e a s k e d n o w, h o w m u c h o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n
w a s g i v e n w h e n a n d s o o n b e c a u s e a l t h o u g h th e r e is a l o t o f
d o c u m e n t a ti o n h e r e , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t th a t a l o t o f i t m i g h t n o t
r e a l ly r e l a te t o h is r o l e .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w. A l t h o u g h , h i s r o l e i t s e e m s to b e q u i t e

i m p o r t a n t, i t s e e m s to b e n a r r o w.
10

L E G A L C O U N S E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m e .
LEGAL COUNSEL: Of course.
CHAIRPERSON: And therefore it ought to be possible to have certain
d o c u m e n ts th a t r e l a t e t o h is r o l e t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t a n d to a p p l y o n e ’s
m i n d t o t h e m a n d fi n a l iz e .
LEGAL COUNSEL:

Ye s , o f c o u r s e w e w o u l d h a v e t o c o n s id e r a l l t h e

d o c u m e n ts t o d e t e r m in e w h e t h e r t h e y a r e r e l e v a n t o r n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o I a c c e p t t h a t , I a c c e p t th a t , j a .
L E G A L C O U N S E L : T h e o t h e r c o m p lic a ti o n , c h a ir, a n d a g a i n I r a i s e i t
20

ju s t t h i n k in g o u t l o u d i s o f c o u r s e i n o r d e r f o r u s to f o r m a v i e w o n
w h e t h e r t h e A m b a s s a d o r w o u ld b e p r e j u d i c e d i n c o n ti n u i n g o r n o t , t h is
q u e s t io n o f t h e r e c o r d i n g s is a s p a n n e r in t h e w o r k s . W e w o u ld
o b v i o u s l y w a n t t o l is t e n t o t h e m fir s t b e fo r e w e m a k e th a t e l e c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
LEGAL COUNSEL:

S o p e r h a p s , m y s u g g e s ti o n w o u ld b e i f w e c o u ld

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
o b t a i n a r u li n g f r o m y o u t h a t w e a r e e n ti t l e d t o th o s e r e c o r d i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
L E G A L C O U N S E L : A n d i f w e c o u l d h a v e t h e m i m m e d i a te ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
LEGAL COUNSEL:

W e c o u l d c o n s i d e r t h e m o v e r n ig h t a n d t h e n

t o m o r r o w w e c o u l d c o m e b a c k a n d i n fo r m y o u , c h a ir, w h a t o u r p o s i ti o n
is w h e th e r w e a r e i n c li n e d t o c o n t in u e o r w h e t h e r w e w o u l d s e e k a
p o s tp o n e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. Thank you.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u , c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w i t h r e g a r d t o w h a t y o u r e c e iv e d o v e r t h e

w e e k e n d i n r e g a r d to t h e r e c o r d in g o f t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n b e t w e e n a s I
u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n , A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d M a jo r N ts h i s i .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , c h a ir
CHAIRPERSON: And Ambassador Koloane and Colonel Anderson, that
is a v a il a b l e to h i m . T h e r e i s n o p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t . Is n o t i t?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : N o , n o c h a ir. I t i s a v a i l a b le . I w a s w a i t in g fo r
C h a ir t o g i v e d ir e c t io n s . I h a d i n d ic a t e d t o m y l e a r n e d f r i e n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Th a t t h e c h a ir h a d n o t s e e n a n d h a d n o t h e a r d
a n y o f th e s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t is n o t c la s s i f ie d o r a n y t h i n g ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : It h a s b e e n d e c la s s i fi e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e c la s s i f ie d ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : D e c l a s s i fi e d n o w, y e s c h a ir.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t c a n b e g iv e n t o h i m t h e n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w h a t is t h e o t h e r c o n f id e n ti a l d o c u m e n t o r
s o m e t h i n g ? T h e r e is n o t h in g e ls e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : I a m n o t m a d e a w a r e o f a n y o th e r d o c u m e n t
that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g e ls e t h a t a r r iv e d t o d a y
10

o r s o m e th i n g t h is m o r n i n g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

O h y e s , th e F F 1 2 . T h a t is h is l e t te r o f

a p p o i n t m e n t a s a n A m b a s s a d o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h e r e is n o t h i n g c o n te n ti o u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

A n d t h e , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , c h a ir. T h e r e i s

a ls o t h e D IR C O r e p o r t w h i c h is i n A m b a s s a d o r M a t ji l a ’s s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g r e p o r t o r w h a t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : N o , n o c h a ir. T h a t i s in FA 1 2 . T h a t is j u s t t h e
20

o n e - p a g e r e p o r t t h a t A m b a s s a d o r M a t j il a i d e n ti f ie d a s a r e p o r t w h i c h h e
f o r w a r d e d t o N ic o . T h a t w a s t h e o t h e r d o c u m e n t w a s d e c l a s s i fi e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t it is a v a i la b l e to h i m ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , i t h a s b e e n d e c l a s s i fi e d , y e s c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN: We can make it available to him.

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e is n o th in g t h a t a s f a r a s y o u k n o w s h o u l d n o t
b e m a d e a v a il a b l e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN: No.
CHAIRPERSON: That you, that we have.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : N o , c h a ir. N o t a t a l l.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a . O k a y t h o s e c a n b e g iv e n t o h i m o r h is l a w y e r s

i m m e d i a t e ly. S o i t , b u t i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t w e s h o u l d a d j o u r n u n ti l
t o m o r r o w m o r n in g s o th a t t h e y c a n t h e n h a v e , th e y c a n l is t e n to th e
r e c o r d i n g a n d n u m b e r o n e . N u m b e r t w o , u s e t h e ti m e t o f o r p a r ti c u l a r
10

t h e w i tn e s s b u t h is l a w y e r s m a y n e e d t o a s w e ll . I f t h e r e a r e a n y
d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h e y h a v e n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o a p p l y t h e i r m i n d t o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f h i s r o l e s u g g e s ts t h a t e v e n
w i t h d o c u m e n ts i t s h o u l d n o t b e m a n y d o c u m e n ts t h a t n e e d to b e
r e fe r r e d t o t h a t a r e i n th e b u n d l e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Ye s , y e s c h a ir. B u t w e d e c i d e d t o g i v e t h e m

all the bundles.
CHAIRPERSON: Everything, yes.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : As f a r a s u n d e r s t a n d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: But.
ADV THANDI NORMAN: But.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s it y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g to o t h a t t h o s e th a t r e a l ly

r e l a t e t o h i m is v e r y li m i t e d n u m b e r ?

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ve r y l i m i te d , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ve r y li m i t e d n u m b e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

T h a t w o u l d b e F F 4 , F F 3 , th o s e m a t t e r s th a t

r e a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s a n d F F1 , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y, a l r i g h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . I a m h a p p y t o a d j o u r n . W e c a n a d jo u r n t o
10

t o m o r r o w a t 1 0 a n d e v e r y b o d y u n d e r s t a n d s w h y w e a r e a d jo u r n i n g . A n d
t h e n w h e n w e r e s u m e t o m o r r o w a t 1 0 , w e c a n t h e n h e a r if t h e w i t n e s s ’s
c o u n s e l h a s , c a n i n d ic a te t o u s w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n is b u t a s I s p e a k m y
in c li n a ti o n is t h a t a s fa r a s p o s s i b l e , i t o u g h t t o b e p o s s i b l e f o r u s t o
c o n ti n u e w i t h o u t th e r e b e i n g a n y u n f a ir n e s s t o th e A m b a s s a d o r. B u t I
w i ll b e t o l d i f th e r e i s a n y f e e li n g t h a t t h e r e w il l b e u n f a ir n e s s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u , c h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

A lr i g h t . A m b a s s a d o r, y o u h a v e b e e n lis t e n i n g t o

e v e r y t h i n g , y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e e v e r y t h i n g is g o in g .
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s , I d o c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d o ? J a , I a m g o i n g t o a d j o u r n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s

n o w a n d w e w ill r e s u m e t o m o r r o w a t 1 0 o ’c l o c k . T h e a d j o u r n m e n t w ill
s e r v e t h e p u r p o s e o f a ll o w i n g y o u a n d y o u r le g a l te a m to l is t e n to th e
r e c o r d i n g b u t a ls o to h a v e m o r e t i m e t o a p p ly y o u r m i n d to w h a te v e r

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08 JULY 2019 – DAY 128
o th e r d o c u m e n t s , w h a te v e r d o c u m e n ts y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e h a d a
c h a n c e t o a p p ly y o u r m i n d t o . A n d t o m o r r o w w e w i ll b e lo o k in g a t
p r o c e e d i n g b u t y o u a n d y o u r l e g a l t e a m a r e fr e e t o m a k e a n y
a p p lic a ti o n

that

you

might

consider

making

about

a

possible

a d j o u r n m e n t a n d th e n I w o u ld m a k e a r u l in g o n i t . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s , I d o , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u . W e a r e g o i n g t o a d jo u r n th e n u n ti l

t o m o r r o w a t 1 0 o ’c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 9 J U LY 2 0 1 9
10

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