C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 0 9 J U LY 2 0 1 9 D AY 1 2 9 20 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E O N 9 J U LY 2 0 1 9 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I a m r e a d y b u t I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s o f A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e i s . T h a n k you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s h e a r c o u n s e l fo r t h e A m b a s s a d o r. U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . UNKNOWN COUNSEL: O v e r n i g h t n ig h t w e h a v e h a d t h e o p p o r tu n it y t o c o n s u l t a n d to l is t e n t o t h e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s . A t t h is s t a g e m y in s t r u c t i o n s a r e t h a t w e i n te n d t o p r o c e e d w e d o n o t i n te n d t o a p p ly f o r a p o s t p o n e m e n t . In li g h t o f t h e c o n t e n t i n th e r e c o r d i n g s h o w e v e r t h e A m b a s s a d o r h a s r e q u e s te d t h a t h e ju s t b e e n t i tl e d t o r e v is i t o r c l a r i fy s o m e o f t h e e v i d e n c e w h ic h h e g a v e y e s t e r d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . H e w i ll g e t t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty. UNKNOWN COUNSEL: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Okay thank you. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . Thank you. A m b a s s a d o r y e s te r d a y w e le f t o ff – w e w e r e s ti ll g o i n g th r o u g h t h e report, the JCPS Report and those paragraphs where you were d is p u ti n g s o m e o f th e th i n g s t h a t a r e r e c o r d e d i n th e r e p o r t it s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e b e f o r e t h a t w e s h o u l d – I s h o u l d ju s t a s k t h e A m b a s s a d o r a q u e s ti o n t h a t I h a d i n m in d y e s t e r d a y b u t l a te r o n Page 2 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 forgot. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n m a y b e b e f o r e y o u c a n a s k h i m q u e s ti o n s a ft e r t h a t y o u g i v e h i m a c h a n c e t o c la r i fy t h o s e p a r ts o f th e e v i d e n c e h e g a v e y e s te r d a y t h a t h e w i s h e s t o c l a r i fy. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h a t a s w e m o v e o n w e k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t h e – w h a t th e c la r i fi c a t io n i s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: A m b a s s a d o r w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e le t t e r t h a t y o u r PA w r o t e t o M r W il li a m M a t ji la y o u d i d g iv e e v i d e n c e t o th e e ff e c t t h a t t h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g e i t h e r o n h e r p a r t o r t h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n a m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o n h e r p a r t o r y o u m a y h a v e f a i l e d t o a r tic u l a t e w h a t y o u w a n t e d to c o n v e y t o h e r p r o p e r l y b e c a u s e y o u – y o u n e v e r i n te n d e d to s a y th a t y o u h a d a p p r o v e d t h e r e q u e s t , i s t h a t correct? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s i t is c o r r e c t M r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t I w a n t e d t o a s k y o u is w h e th e r th e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e r e q u e s t w h e th e r t h e p o s i t io n is n o t t h a t t h e r e f e r e n c e to t h e r e q u e s t 20 is n o t – w a s n o t a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e r e q u e s t f o r a c l e a r a n c e b e c a u s e I t h i n k y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s p r e m is e d o n th e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t w h e n s h e t a lk e d a b o u t a r e q u e s t in t h a t e m a i l s h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t a r e q u e s t f o r c le a r a n c e . H e n c e y o u s a id y o u h a d n o p o w e r t o g r a n t a r e q u e s t f o r a c le a r a n c e th a t w a s t h e j o b o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e . Certain r e q u ir e m e n t s h a v e h a d t o b e m e t b e f o r e t h e y c o u ld d e c id e w h e t h e r t h e y Page 3 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 w e r e g r a n ti n g o r n o t g r a n ti n g a n d y o u w o u l d k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t w h e t h e r th o s e r e q u ir e m e n t s w e r e m e t . Is my summation of what you were saying correct? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s tr y i n g to c o n v e y t h a t m y a i m w a s t o a s k m y p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t to c o m m u n ic a t e t h a t I w a n t e d t h e o ff ic i a ls t h e r e t o p r o c e s s t h e a p p li c a t io n f o r th e fl ig h t c le a r a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u w e r e n o t – y o u w e r e s a y in g y o u w e r e n o t – y o u d i d n o t w a n t h e r t o c o n v e y a n y t h in g to t h e e ffe c t t h a t y o u h a d 10 approved the request for clearance. A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C o r r e c t Sir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h a t fe ll o u t s i d e y o u r m a n d a te ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w m y q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r th e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e r e q u e s t w a s n o t m e a n t to – t o b e a r e fe r e n c e to a r e q u e s t f o r t h e v is i t . S o t h a t w h a t s h e m a y h a v e i n te n d e d t o s a y is t h a t a s fa r a s th is v is i t i s c o n c e r n e d A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e h a s a p p r o v e d o r D I R C O h a s a p p r o v e d t h e v is it – t h e r e q u e s t f o r a v is i t . Yo u p e o p l e m u s t n o w d e a l w i th t h e request for clearance. 20 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: N o C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I h a d n o t c o m m u n ic a t e d w i t h a n y b o d y w i t h i n D I R C O w h o h a d c o n f ir m e d t h a t th e y h a d a p p r o v e d s u c h a n d n o r m a ll y t h a t w il l h a v e t o b e a p p r o v e d b y th e b r a n c h w h ic h d e a ls w i th t h e c o u n t r y. I n t h i s c a s e i t w il l h a v e b e e n t h e b r a n d A s ia a n d th e M i d d l e E a s t . S o I w a s m e r e ly c o m m u n ic a ti n g a b o u t th e r e q u e s t to p r o c e s s t h e c l e a r a n c e . Page 4 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 CHAIRPERSON: B u t i f th e r e w a s t o b e a v i s i t I th i n k o n e – I t h i n k A m b a s s a d o r J e r r y M a t ji l a y e s t e r d a y ta lk e d a b o u t t w o n o t e v e r b a l e s a n d s a i d in r e g a r d t o t h e v is i t o n e t h e – i t m i g h t j u s t b e a r e q u e s t f o r a v is i t t o d o a v is i t t o S o u th A fr ic a b y a f o r e i g n h e a d o f s ta t e o r M i n is te r s a n d o n c e t h a t r e q u e s t h a s b e e n a p p r o v e d t h e n th e r e m ig h t b e a n o th e r n o t e v e r b a l e w h ic h t h e n c o m e s w i th d e t a ils a b o u t fl i g h ts a n d s o o n a n d s o o n w h i c h s e e m e d to s u g g e s t t o m e t h a t t h e r e n e e d s t o b e a n a p p r o v a l o f t h e r e q u e s t f ir s t a n d I t h i n k e i th e r h e o r a n o t h e r w i t n e s s m a d e a r e fe r e n c e a n d i t m a y h a v e b e e n y o u I m a y b e m i s t a k e n . 10 Made r e fe r e n c e to t h e f a c t – I t h i n k i t is a n o t h e r w i t n e s s n o t y o u t h a t i f i t i s a h e a d o f s t a t e o r Pr i m e M i n i s te r o f D e p u ty H e a d o f S t a te w h o w a n t s t o m e e t w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y th e D IR C O w o u l d c o m m u n ic a te w i t h th e P r e s i d e n ts – P r e s i d e n t t o e s t a b lis h w h e th e r t h e Pr e s id e n t s a y s it is f in e t h e y c a n v i s i t a n d m e e t w i t h h i m . And the one could understand accords that. Is th a t something that w i th your u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n s o m e ti m e s w i th r e q u e s t s f o r v is i t s w h e r e th e H e a d o f S t a t e i n S o u t h A f r i c a w o u l d b e m e t ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : M r C h a ir m a n y o u a r e c o r r e c t . W h e n e v e r t h e r e is g o i n g t o b e a r e q u e s t b y a n y H e a d o f S t a t e t o c o m e 20 a n d v i s i t o u r P r e s i d e n t th e e m b a s s y o f t h a t c o u n tr y w il l t h e n w r i t e – w e ll t h e y w i ll n o r m a l ly h a v e a n u m b e r o f m e e t i n g s b u i ld in g u p to th e v is it b u t o n c e th e y h a v e a g r e e d t h e n th e y w il l a c t u a l ly o ffic ia ll y c o m m u n ic a te t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t th r o u g h t h e n o t e v e r b a l e t o th e d e s k t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u l d l ik e t o p a y a v i s i t o r a s t a t e v is i t o r o ff ic ia l v is it d u r i n g th e f o l lo w in g d a t e s a n d t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n is c o m m u n i c a t e d t o Page 5 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h e d e s k . A n d t h e n t h e d e s k w ill c o n s u lt w i t h th e M i n is t e r w h o i n t u r n w i ll c h e c k w i t h th e P r e s i d e n c y w h e t h e r th e P r e s i d e n t is a v a i l a b le o r t h e D e p u ty Pr e s id e n t d e p e n d i n g o n w h o w i ll m e t a n d th e n o n c e t h e y c o n fir m t h a t th e d a t e is a c c e p t a b l e t h e y w ill a ls o c o m m u n ic a t e b a c k t o t h e e m b a s s y a c c o r d i n g ly t h a t t h a t is a c c e p ta b l e . A f t e r th a t th e n o n c e t h e d a t e h a s b e e n s e t u p d u r in g t h e D G F w h i c h i s th e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l’s Fo r u m w h e r e – w h i c h is c h a i r e d t h e D i r e c to r G e n e r a l a n d a l l t h e D D G ’s a t t e n d n o r m a ll y t h a t i s a p la t f o r m f o r u s t o e x c h a n g e in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t w h a t is h a p p e n in g i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d th e n th e 10 D D G in th is c a s e i f m a y b e i t w a s A s i a D D G i f i t w a s a J a p a n P r i m e M i n is t e r c o m i n g t h e n h e w i ll r e p o r t th a t b y th e w a y w e w il l h a v e a v is i t fr o m th is d a y. I n s o m e c a s e s h e m a y e v e n a s k f o r a s s is t a n c e fr o m o th e r c o ll e a g u e s . Or if maybe that happens before the DGF happens h e w il l n o r m a l ly t h e n c o n s u lt t h e o ffi c e o f t h e c h i e f o f s ta t e p r o to c o l in d i c a t in g h e y b y t h e w a y w e h a v e g o t t h i s t h i n g c o m i n g I h a v e a s k e d t h e e m b a s s y o f t h a t c o u n tr y t o s ta r t g e t ti n g in t o u c h w i t h y o u r e g a r d i n g lo g i s t ic s . A n d o n c e t h e – a n d o n c e th a t h a p p e n s t h e e m b a s s y w i ll th e n s e n d a n o te v e r b a l e t o u s r e q u e s t in g a m e e ti n g . Whether there is a fl ig h t a v a i la b le t h a t w o u l d b e l a n d in g in W a te r k l o o f o r n o t th e y w il l th e n 20 c o m m u n ic a te r e q u e s ti n g a m e e ti n g s o t h a t w e c a n d e a l w i t h th e lo g i s t ic s . S o th e r e a r e t w o s e p a r a t e n o t e v e r b a l e s b u t t h e o n e t h a t g o e s t o t h e P r o t o c o l o ff ic e i s d e p e n d e n t o n th e f ir s t o n e b e i n g d e a l t w i t h b y t h e d e s k a n d a g r e e in g o n t h e d a te t h a t – o f th a t p a r t ic u l a r v is i t . CHAIRPERSON: S o i t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t w o u ld i t n o t b e t o s a y t h a t t h e r e is a p p r o v a l o f t h e v is i t th a t m u s t h a p p e n b e f o r e t h e d e f e n c e fo r c e Page 6 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 c a n c o n s id e r r e q u e s t f o r c le a r a n c e le a v i n g o u t a s t o w h o m u s t g iv e a p p r o v a l f o r n o w b u t t h e r e i s a p p r o v a l o f th e v is it t h a t m u s t h a p p e n fir s t, is th a t n o t s o ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: T h e p e r s o n w h o i s t a r g e te d f o r th a t p a r t ic u l a r m e e ti n g b y t h e fo r e ig n p o l it ic a l p r in c i p l e o f c o u r s e w e w i ll h a v e to c o n f ir m t h a t th e y a r e a v a i la b le o n t h a t p a r tic u la r s a id d a t e . I f i t i s a n o ff ic ia l v is i t b u t i f i t is a p r i v a t e v is i t t h e r e i s n o n e e d b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o ta r g e t e d p e r s o n w h o h a s to a p p r o v e b u t w e s t il l h a v e t o e x t e n d p r o t o c o l c o u r te s i e s d e p e n d i n g a n d a s w e l l o n t h e l e v e l o f th e 10 p e r s o n c o m in g i f i t is a H e a d o f S t a t e w e p r o v i d e m o r e c o u r t e s i e s t h a n w e w o u ld fo r e x a m p l e i f it i s ju s t a M i n is t e r c o m in g f o r a p r iv a t e v is it a s w e ll . CHAIRPERSON: I – I w o n d e r w h e t h e r w h e n o n e lo o k s a t t h a t e m a i l fr o m y o u r PA i t s h o u ld n o t b e r e a d to m e a n w h a t s h e w a s s a y i n g y o u h a d d o n e w a s th a t t h e v is it a s f a r a s D I R C O is c o n c e r n e d w a s in o r d e r. I f s h e w a s s a y i n g th a t w o u l d t h a t b e i n li n e w i t h w h a t c o u l d b e s a i d i n t h e li g h t o f th e p r o c e s s e s t h a t D IR C O h a s i n r e g a r d to t h e s e – t o r e q u e s t f o r v is i ts a n d s o o n o r w o u ld t h a t b e – w o u l d t h a t n o t b e i n li n e ? 20 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: It w il l n o t b e i n l in e C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e C h i e f o f P r o to c o l is n o t t h e o n e w h o a p p r o v e s v is it s . I t is d e a l t w i t h b y t h e l in e f u n c ti o n s d e p a r t m e n ts i n th is c a s e t h e D D G ’s o f th e v a r i o u s b r a n c h e s w il l b e t h e o n e s w h o c a n o n ly s a y y e s a ft e r c o n s u l t in g th e n s a y y e s th e v is i t h a s b e e n a p p r o v e d b y t h e p r i n c i p l e a n d c o m m u n i c a t e th a t t o p r o t o c o l . Page 7 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . I a m j u s t w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r t h is i s a c a s e w h e r e s h e c o m p le t e l y g o t t h e w h o le t h in g w r o n g i n th e s e n s e t h a t s h e t h o u g h t you had said you were approving the clearance because that does not s e e m t o – t o ti e in b e c a u s e t h e c l e a r a n c e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a p p r o v e d b y t h e D e fe n c e F o r c e . B u t w h a t I w a s t h i n k in g is th a t i t is p o s s ib l e m a y b e t h a t t h e r e is s o m e th in g th a t y o u m a y h a v e c o n v e y e d t o s a y i t w a s i n o r d e r fr o m D IR C O ’s s id e o t h e r t h a n s a y i n g th e c l e a r a n c e w a s b e i n g a p p r o v e d a n d t h a t m a y b e th e m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g if a n y m ig h t h a v e b e e n i n t h a t y o u m a y h a v e in t e n d e d to s a y, te ll t h e m t h a t fr o m D I R C O ’s 10 s id e e v e r y t h i n g is i n o r d e r, t h e y m u s t d o t h e ir s id e . T h a t is w h a t I w a s w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r th a t is w h e r e t h e m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g i f t h e r e i s a m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g h a p p e n e d . Yo u m e a n t t o s a y w e a s D IR C O w e t h i n k e v e r y t h i n g is in o r d e r b u t t h e y m u s t d o t h e i r s i d e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: M r C h a ir m a n t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g i n D I R C O w h i c h s a i d th e y p l a n n e d o r t h e a p p l ic a t i o n w a s i n o r d e r a n d t h a t t h e v is i t w a s a p p r o v e d b y D I R C O . CHAIRPERSON: Hm., A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: A t a ll . A n d th a t is w h y I a m tr y i n g t o i n d ic a te t h a t t h a t i s n o t w h a t I w a s c o m m u n ic a ti n g t o h e r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I w a s t r y i n g to c o m m u n ic a t e t h a t s h e m u s t t a lk to t h e p e o p l e r e s p o n s i b le w i t h t h e p r o c e s s i n g o f th e fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e t o d o w h a t t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d to d o w h ic h is t o p r o c e s s t h e f li g h t c l e a r a n c e . B u t I – a g a i n m a y b e f a i l e d t o c o m m u n ic a te a p p r o p r i a t e ly o r s h e m i s u n d e r s t o o d w h a t I w a s s a y i n g . Page 8 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W e l l I u n d e r s t o o d fr o m M a j o r N t s h is i a n d o r M r W il li a m M a tj il a ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t M r N ts h i s i d i d i n d ic a te o r h a d i n d ic a t e d o r c o n v e y e d t h e p o s i t io n t h a t h e w a n t e d s o m e t h in g i n w r i t in g . I u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o b e s a y i n g a n d I a m – m y r e c o l le c t i o n m a y b e in a c c u r a t e u n d e r s to o d h i m to b e s a y i n g t h a t h e w a n t e d s o m e t h in g i n w r i t in g b e f o r e h e c o u l d g o fu r t h e r w i th th e p r o c e s s in g o f th e r e q u e s t f o r c le a r a n c e . A n d i f t h a t p a r t o f h is e v id e n c e i s c o r r e c t it is – i t m i g h t b e d i ff ic u l t to s a y h e w a n t e d s o m e t h in g i n w r i t in g t o s i m p ly s a y p r o c e s s t h e a p p lic a ti o n b e c a u s e o n c e h e h a s r e c e iv e d th e a p p l ic a ti o n I w o u ld 10 i m a g i n e h e w o u ld k n o w h i s d u t ie s to p r o c e s s i t . He does not need a le t t e r fr o m D IR C O s a y in g p r o c e s s i t. H e m i g h t h a v e w a n te d s o m e th i n g m o r e . W h a t d o y o u s a y to t h a t p o s s ib il i ty ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : M r C h a ir p e r s o n i t is p o s s ib l e t h a t h e m ig h t h a v e w a n te d s o m e t h i n g m o r e b u t t h a t s o m e th i n g m o r e w il l h a v e h a d to c o m e f r o m t h e li n e f u n c ti o n d e a li n g w i t h t h e v is it . I f it w a s A s i a th e n th e y w o u l d h a v e a c t u a ll y s a id y e s t h a t d a t e h a s b e e n c o n fir m e d . I f it h a d b e e n c o m m u n ic a te d o r m a n a g e d i ts e l f d ir e c tl y b y t h e p a r ti c u l a r b r a n c h . A n d m a y b e C h a ir a ls o i t m i g h t h e lp i t i s p l e a s e t h e C h a ir t h a t t h e r e q u e s t m a d e b y m y l e g a l c o u n s e l i f t h e C h a ir d e e m s 20 it g o o d a n d fi t t o g r a n t t h a t m a y b e – I t a lk e d t o i t b e c a u s e i t m i g h t a d d r e s s s o m e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t t h e C h a ir is a c t u a lly tr y i n g t o g e t t o r ig h t n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o th a t is fi n e m a y b e le t u s d o t h a t . G iv e w h a t e v e r – a l l t h e c l a r if ic a ti o n s y o u w i s h t o g iv e i n r e l a ti o n t o a n y a s p e c t o f e v id e n c e th a t y o u g a v e y e s t e r d a y a n d t h e n t h e r e a f t e r w e c a n Page 9 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h e n ta k e it fr o m t h e r e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr C h a ir. F ir s t o f a ll I w a n t a ls o t o t h a n k y o u f o r g r a n ti n g m y s e l f a n d m y le g a l c o u n s e l t h e o p p o r tu n it y t o g e t a c o p y – o r t o g e t t h e r e c o r d i n g b e c a u s e i t h a s h e lp e d u s a n d h e l p e d m e i n p a r ti c u l a r t o r e fr e s h m y m e m o r y o n s o m e o f th e is s u e s t h a t h a d b e e n r a is e d a n d o f c o u r s e h a v i n g t a k e n p l a c e a l o n g ti m e a g o i t m a d e s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s I m i g h t n o t h a v e r e c o ll e c t e d p r o p e r l y. H e n c e i n s o m e i n s t a n c e I w o u l d i n d ic a t e that I am not sure or I am not certain. 10 But now that we have had a c h a n c e to l is t e n t o t h e r e c o r d i n g , tr y to t h in k b a c k w a r d s I w o u ld l ik e t o d r a w th e C h a i r ’s a tt e n ti o n a s w e l l a s t h e le a d c o u n s e l ’s a t te n ti o n t o E x h i b i t F F1 w h i c h h a d b e e n r e f e r r e d to y e s t e r d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : O n p a g e 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: T h e f ir s t c o n fir m a t io n o r c o r r e c t io n I w o u ld l ik e t o m a k e i s t h a t w h i ls t I m ig h t h a v e s a id i n my d is c u s s io n w it h Mr N ts h is i th a t t h e r e m ig h t b e s ix t o e ig h t I t h i n k I w a s c o r r e c t ly r e m i n d e d th a t I d i d i n d e e d s a y t o M r N t s h is i d u r in g t h e 20 t e l e p h o n e d i s c u s s io n th a t th e r e w e r e fo u r t o f iv e M in is t e r s o n b o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: in f o r m a ti o n which had been A n d th a t w a s b a s e d o n th e c o m m u n ic a te d to me by th e H ig h C o m m i s s i o n e r o f t h e I n d i a n E m b a s s y. I m m e d i a t e ly a ft e r t h a t s e n t e n c e h e s a i d , M r N ts h is i s a id h e a d d e d t h a t t h e M i n i s te r o f Tr a n s p o r t M r B e n Page 10 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 M a r t in s h a d b e e n g iv e n in s tr u c ti o n s b y t h e P r e s i d e n t t o a s s is t t h e G u p t a fa m i ly. Th a t th e M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e a n d M i li t a r y Ve te r a n s h a s n o o b j e c ti o n a n d th a t a t th e m e e t i n g a t t h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t th e C E O o f A C S A a n d t h e G u p ta ’s h e h a d b e e n t o l d to a s s i s t . A n d t h a t t h is w a s a u n i t c a s e . H e r e Mr C h a i r I w i ll l ik e – I m e a n h a v i n g l is t e n e d a l s o to t h e r e c o r d i n g I w o u ld li k e t o a d m i t t h a t i n d e e d I d i d w h a t h a s n o w b e c o m e p r o p e r ly k n o w n a s n a m e d r o p p in g a n d u s e d t h a t – th o s e s e n te n c e s m e r e l y t o – t o p u s h th e o ff ic i a ls w h o s u p p o s e d t o p r o c e s s t h e fl i g h t c l e a r a n c e to d o th e i r j o b , t o d o th e fl i g h t – th e p r o c e s s in g . 10 A n d I a ls o w a n t t o g o o n r e c o r d M r C h a ir t h a t th a t w a s f u n d a m e n t a l ly n o t h i n g b u t n a m e d r o p p i n g a n d a s it is p r o p e r ly k n o w n n o w a d a y s b u t t h a t th e M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e – o f Tr a n s p o r t n o r th e M in is t e r o f D e fe n c e n o r t h e Pr e s i d e n t d id n o t a t a n y s t a g e c o m m u n ic a te to m e th a t I s h o u ld in a n y w a y d e a l w i t h t h is m a t te r a s i t is e x p r e s s e d . T h e o n ly t i m e a n d a s I i n d ic a t e d w h e r e I h a d in t e r a c ti o n w i t h t h e M in is t e r B e n M a r ti n s w a s a t t h e m e e ti n g w h ic h I m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o w h i c h w a s a t O R Ta m b o w h e r e h e w a n t e d t o s o li c i t o u r a d v ic e to g e th e r w i t h t h a t o f t h e C E O o f A C S A a n d w h e r e w e a d v is e d t h a t i t w il l n o t b e p r u d e n t f o r th e p la n e t o la n d t h e r e a n d f o r th e r e a s o n s w h ic h I h a v e a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d . B u t h e 20 e v e n i n t h a t m e e ti n g d i d n o t – I w a n t t o r e p e a t h e d i d n o t s a y th a t h e w a s g iv e n a n y o r d e r s t o a s s i s t t h e G u p t a ’s . A n d th a t w a s j u s t a f a u l t fr o m my s id e w h i c h I ta k e fu ll r e s p o n s ib ili t y fo r a n d a g a i n I w a n t to s tr e s s th a t i t w a s fu n d a m e n t a l ly t o p u t if I m a y u s e t h e w o r d , t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e o ffi c i a l s t o e x p e d i t e t h e p r o c e s s o f p r o c e s s i n g t h e fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e r e q u e s t . A n d I t h i n k a g a i n w h i ls t I w a s n o t c e r t a in a s I Page 11 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 in d i c a t e d b u t i t h a s a lr e a d y b e e n c le a r e d a n d a g a i n t h a n k s t o t h e C h a i r a u t h o r i s i n g th e r e l e a s e o f t h e r e c o r d i n g t h a t i n d e e d t h e p r e - - t h e p r e c h e c k a t th e W a te r k l o o f a c tu a lly h a p p e n e d b e f o r e t h e fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e w a s a c t u a ll y is s u e d . A n d m a y b e a ls o t o c la r i fy C h a i r w h a t I m e a n t b y t h e f a c t t h a t th is w a s a u n i q u e c a s e . Unique in that as far as I can r e c o l l e c t i n t h e h is t o r y o f S o u t h A f r ic a w e h a v e n e v e r h a d f a m i ly c h a r te r i n g a p l a n e w i t h s o m a n y in d iv i d u a l s a n d o n e r e q u e s t in g t o l a n d b e i t e it h e r a t O R Ta m b o I n t e r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t o r r e q u ir i n g a ls o t o l a n d a t t h e Wa t e r k l o o f . 10 S o th e r e w e r e u n i q u e n e s s in t e r m s o f s o m e t h in g t h a t h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d b e f o r e a n d th e r e w a s n o p r e c e d e n t in te r ms o f h o w t h o s e k i n d s o f t h i n g s g e t d e a l t w i t h . D i d t h e – I s ta t e th a t it w a s f o r th e G u p ta f a m i ly. Now that I have been helped by the recording in d e e d C h a ir b e c a u s e i n t h e d i s c u s s i o n i t i s a p i t y n o t e v e r y t h i n g is c a p tu r e d h e r e b u t i n t h e d is c u s s i o n o f c o u r s e w e w i ll t a l k a b o u t t h e G u p t a f a m il y tr y in g t o la n d a t W a t e r k lo o f – a t O R Ta m b o a n d th e n l a t e r o n t h e r e is a n a p p l ic a ti o n a ls o fo r – t o a t t e n d a s i m il a r e v e n t . B e c a u s e I d o n o t t h i n k i t w a s h i d d e n th a t t h e M i n i s t e r s a r e a l s o c o m i n g fo r t h e w e d d i n g . S o I – i t w a s s in is t e r t h a t t h a t c o u l d h a p p e n li k e t h a t a n d I think 20 clearly the G u p t a ’s must have n e g o t ia t e d with the High C o m m i s s i o n a n d o n e m a d e t h a t k i n d o f o b s e r v a ti o n a n d th a t is w h y I a c t u a ll y s a id th is w a s c l e a r ly a n d a ls o c o m p o u n d e d b y t h e fa c t t h a t a s I s t a te d y e s t e r d a y o n e o f th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e p r e s e n t w i th t h e e v e n t o r m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y t o g o a n d d o a p r e - i n s p e c ti o n w a s a m e m b e r w h o worked f o r t h e G u p ta b u s i n e s s s o i n d e e d I d i d a ls o t h e r e f o r e a c c o r d i n g l y i n t h a t c o n t e x t s t a te t h a t . A n d I f u lly c o n c u r w i t h th e Page 12 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 s t a te m e n t th a t i n th a t l a s t s e n t e n c e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n c y h a s n e v e r e v e r e v e n in t h e – fo r t h e t o ta l d u r a ti o n o f t h e ti m e I s e r v e d a s t h e C h i e f o f S t a te P r o to c o l th e P r e s i d e n t o r th e P r e s i d e n c y h a s n e v e r e v e r in t e r fe r e d w i t h t h e p r o c e s s – w i t h t h e a d m i n i s tr a t iv e p r o c e s s o f f a c i li t a ti n g t h e l a n d in g o f a ir p l a n e s n o r h a s i t e v e r i n t e r fe r e d i n a n y p r o t o c o l r e la t e d a c ti v i ti e s a n d th e o n l y w a y th a t s o m e ti m e s it w i ll in fl u e n c e t h a t is b y o n ly s u g g e s ti n g t h a t th e Pr e s i d e n t w o u l d l ik e t o h a v e a s t a t e b a n q u e t o r d in n e r o r l u n c h s o t h a t w e c a n a c c o r d in g ly adjust the 10 program but in terms of the l o g i s t ic s we take f u ll r e s p o n s i b i li ty – w e to o k f u l l r e s p o n s i b ili t y f o r t h a t. S o th e r e fo r e C h a ir I w o u ld l ik e to a g a i n r e p e a t t h a t b y m y o w n a d m is s io n t h a t I e r r e d t o a n e r r o r o f ju d g m e n t i n u s i n g – i n w r o n g l y a n d w r o n g f u lly u s in g t h e n a m e s o f t h e M in is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t t h e th e n M in is te r o f Tr a n s p o r t M r B e n M a r t in s , th e c u r r e n t M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e a s w e l l a s t h e P r e s id e n c y a n d in t h i s s t a te m e n t t h a t I m a d e t o tr y a n d e x e r t p r e s s u r e to t h e o ffic i a ls a t – w h o w e r e s u p p o s e d to f a c i li t a te t h e p r o c e s s i n g o f t h e f li g h t c le a r a n c e . A n d I th a n k y o u C h a ir th a t is t h e c l a r i f ic a t i o n t h a t I w a n t e d to make. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: A n d I t h a n k th e C h a ir f o r a g a in a u t h o r i s i n g t h a t w e b e g iv e n t h e r e c o r d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . M s N o r m a n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. A m b a s s a d o r I s o w is h t h a t it w o u l d b e t h a t e a s y t h a t a s e n i o r o ffi c i a l lik e y o u r s e lf c a n c o m e h e r e li k e y o u d id y e s t e r d a y a n d t e l l t h e C h a ir Page 13 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 a n d d e n y a l l th e t h i n g s t h a t a r e r e a d o u t t o y o u i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h a n d t h e n o n c e y o u h a v e l is t e n e d t o t h e r e c o r d i n g e v e r y t h i n g m u s t b e p e r fe c t n o w b e c a u s e n o w y o u h a v e s in c e r e c a l l e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e . . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: If… CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you proceed. A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e Ms N o r m a n i t is n o t a c c u r a t e t o s a y h e d e n i e d e v e r y t h i n g . H e d i d s a y h e d i d n o t r e c a l l w h e t h e r h e h a d m a d e c e r t a in 10 s t a te m e n ts a n d i t m a y b e th a t y o u m i g h t w i s h to … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To t a lk a b o u t t h a t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: To r e p h r a s e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Let us – maybe not … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t – h e h a d – t h e r e a r e s o m e h e – th e r e m a y b e s o m e t h in g s th a t h e d e n i e d t h e r e a r e s o m e t h in g s th a t h e s a i d h e d i d not recall. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r t h a t I h a d t o e x p l a i n t o h i m t h e d is t in c ti o n b e t w e e n d e n y i n g a n d s a y i n g I d o n o t r e c a l l. S o I th i n k in r e g a r d t o s o m e o f t h e t h in g s h e r e m y r e c o l l e c ti o n t h a t h e m a y h a v e s a i d h e d id n o t r e c a l l b u t i t m a y b e t h a t t h e r e a r e s o m e o n th e s a m e p a g e t h a t h e d e n ie d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . Page 14 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 CHAIRPERSON: I just want you to – to say – it might be inaccurate to say he denied. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y h e d e n ie d a ll o f th o s e t h in g s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s th a n k y o u . Let me rephrase. A m b a s s a d o r I w is h it w a s t h a t e a s y t h a t a n A m b a s s a d o r o f t h is c o u n tr y c a n c o m e t o t h e c o m m is s i o n a s y o u d id y e s t e r d a y a n d w h e n c e r ta i n t h i n g s a r e p u t t o y o u a n d y o u c a n n o t r e c a l l s o m e y o u s a i d th e y n e v e r h a p p e n e d a n d y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e s a id t h a t. A n d n o w to d a y o n c e y o u 10 lis t e n e d n o w t o a r e c o r d i n g t h e n t h e c o m m is s i o n m u s t a c c e p t th a t y o u m a d e a m is t a k e a n d n o w y o u r e c a l l th a t y o u n a m e d r o p p e d . W e l l s u r e ly y e s t e r d a y w h e n th a t s e n t e n c e a b o u t M i n i s t e r B e n M a r ti n s w a s r e a d o u t t o y o u w h e n th e M i n is t e r o f D e fe n c e a n d M ili t a r y Ve t e r a n s w a s r e a d o u t t o y o u if y o u k n e w t h a t y o u h a d n a m e d r o p p e d t h a t w o u l d h a v e tr i g g e r e d t h a t r e c o l le c ti o n , is th a t c o r r e c t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: N o it is n o t c o r r e c t M a ’a m because number 1. I may want to make reference to what I said y e s t e r d a y. O n Th u r s d a y t h is w e e k – l a s t w e e k w h e n w e w e r e t a l k i n g t o y o u y o u i n d ic a t e d t h a t w h e n w e r e q u e s t e d t h is r e c o r d i n g t h a t w e c o u l d 20 n o t g e t i t b e c a u s e i t i s c l a s s i fi e d . A n d y o u a lr e a d y h a d i t o n T h u r s d a y b e c a u s e y o u t o ld u s s o . H a d y o u g iv e n u s th a t b e c a u s e I a s s u m e d t h a t it is o n ly p r o p e r th a t i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e b r i n g i n g w it n e s s e s y o u f u r n is h th e m w it h all the necessary in f o r m a ti o n p a r t ic u l a r l y something that happened more than six years ago? for So had we r e c e i v e d t h a t r e c o r d i n g I a m s u r e th a t th e is s u e s t h a t y o u a r e r a i s i n g Page 15 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 w i ll n o t h a v e o c c u r r e d ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o th a t d o e s n o t a n s w e r t h e q u e s t io n . L e t u s s t a r t a f r e s h . F ir s t o f a ll I d i d n o t h a v e th e r e c o r d i n g o n T h u r s d a y. W e w e r e t o l d t h a t it w a s a c l a s s i f ie d r e c o r d i n g a n d th e C h a ir p e r s o n a d v is e d y o u a n d y o u r te a m y e s t e r d a y t h a t t h e r e c o r d i n g s w e r e m a d e a v a i la b le t o u s o n S u n d a y. S o I d id n o t h a v e a n y r e c o r d in g s o n T h u r s d a y. L e t u s ju s t g e t t h a t c l e a r. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Maybe I misunderstood you w h e n y o u s a i d th a t w e c a n n o t a c c e s s i t b e c a u s e y o u r w o r d s w e r e b u t 10 s o r r y y o u c a n n o t g e t i t b e c a u s e it is a c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o w e e v e n s a id i n a r e s p o n s e t o y o u r la w y e r s th a t w e d i d n o t h a v e t h e r e c o r d i n g . Mr De Beer who c o m m u n ic a te d w i t h t h e m c a n c o n f ir m t h a t . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE K O L O A N E: I c o u ld have m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B u t t h a t is n o t – I a m n o t h e r e to a r g u e t h a t w i t h y o u . B u t l e t u s t a l k a b o u t y o u r r e c o l le c ti o n o f t h e e v e n ts t h a t h a p p e n e d . Yo u a r e n o w – y o u w a n t th e C h a ir p e r s o n t o b e li e v e th a t a s o f y e s t e r d a y b e f o r e y o u l is t e n e d to t h e r e c o r d i n g y o u d i d n o t k n o w – 20 y o u c o u ld n o t r e c o ll e c t th a t y o u d id n a m e d r o p . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s . I d i d n o t r e c o ll e c t a ll t h e t h in g s . T h a t i s w h y a n d a ls o if I w a s s p e a k i n g w i t h c e r t a i n ty I w il l h a v e r e s p o n d e d a c c o r d in g ly b u t l ik e I s a i d t h is e v e n t h a p p e n e d m o r e t h a n s ix y e a r s a g o t h e i n c i d e n t a n d I t r i e d t o p u t i t b e h i n d m e f o r a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s p a r ti c u l a r l y r e l a t e d to m y fa m i ly a n d t h a t is w h y Page 16 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 s o m e o f t h e f a c ts – fa c t s r e l a t e d t o th a t a r e n o t a s v i v i d t o m e a s th e y may be to you ma’am. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So if then yesterday your answer to you h a v i n g u s e d t h e n a m e o f M r B e n M a r ti n s , th e M in is t e r o f M il i t a r y a n d D e f e n c e a n d t h e P r e s id e n t. S o i f y o u r a n s w e r t o th a t q u e s t i o n w a s n o y o u d id n o t s a y s o t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a li e ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d a g a i n b e c a u s e I d i d n o t h a v e a r e c o l l e c ti o n o f t h e w o r d s t h a t – t h a t w e r e a c t u a ll y t h e r e . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o if t h e n t h is C o m m i s s i o n h a d n o t b e e n f u r n is h e d w i t h t h e r e c o r d i n g i t w o u l d m e a n t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n w o u l d h a v e c o n ti n u e d o n t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t y o u a t t a c k e d th is r e p o r t b e c a u s e it h a d f a c t u a l i n a c c u r a c ie s a s y o u s a id y e s t e r d a y a n d w i th o u t t h a t r e c o r d i n g th e C o m m i s s i o n w o u l d n e v e r h a v e k n o w n w h a t e x a c tly tr a n s p ir e d . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: M o s t p r o b a b ly s o m e o f th e f a c ts w i ll n o t h a v e b e e n a v a il a b l e n o t o n ly t o th e C o m m is s i o n b u t t o m y s e l f a s w e ll b u t a ls o t o i n d ic a te t h a t I d id n o t o n ly e x c l u s i v e ly a t t a c k t h e r e p o r t o n t h e b a s is o f t h is p a r a g r a p h b u t I in d ic a t e d th a t t h e f o u r 20 p e o p l e w h o w e r e – w h o w e r e a c t u a ll y t h e a u t h o r s o f t h e – o f th e r e p o r t d i d n o t a t a n y s t a g e in t e r c e d e w it h m e a s t h e t e a m o f fo u r to in t e r v i e w me. So that was my case as well. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No, no, no but your – your – you – we w e r e d e a li n g w it h th e r e p o r t a n d y o u w e r e id e n ti fy in g th e fa c tu a l in a c c u r a c i e s i n th e r e p o r t . Page 17 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Indeed. As – as far as my r e c o l l e c ti o n w e n t I i d e n t i fi e d e r r o r s w h i c h I th o u g h t w e r e n o t a c c u r a t e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Now let us just talk about t h is n a m e d r o p p i n g . Yo u n o t h a v i n g r e c o ll e c t e d i t . W h y w e r e y o u c h a r g e d ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I do not understand the q u e s t io n ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h y w e r e y o u d is c i p l in e d ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I w a s d is c i p l in e d b e c a u s e th e – o n e o f th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s o f th e r e p o r t w a s t h a t a l l t h e a ffe c t e d 10 s is t e r d e p a r t m e n ts m u s t ta k e – m u s t u n d e r t a k e i n te r n a l d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s e s t o t a k e a p p r o p r i a te a c ti o n a g a i n s t t h o s e w h o m i g h t h a v e b e e n i m p li c a t e d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . What were the charges that you faced? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: A l th o u g h I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m o ff m y h e a d b u t i t w a s b a s i c . O n e o f th e m w a s I t h in k b r e a c h i n g t h e – t h e p r o c e d u r e s i f I r e c a l l o r p r o t o c o l s th a t h a v e t o b e f o l l o w e d t o p r o c e s s t h e – t h e fl i g h t c l e a r a n c e – fl i g h t c l e a r a n c e a p p lic a ti o n . The u n d u e i n fl u e n c e o n th e o t h e r – I th in k t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t s o m e w h e r e . 20 If maybe you could help me … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : B e c a u s e y o u o b v i o u s ly m ig h t know what it is. W h e r e t h e r e a r e th r e e c h a r g e s w h ic h a r e a c t u a ll y t a b le d th e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 18 of 114 May I refer the 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 w i t n e s s to F F 3 ? C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , d o s o p le a s e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F F – F F3 p l e a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I s e e t h e m i n E X H I B I T F F 3 a n d I a m lo o k in g a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s r u l i n g s t a r ts a t p a g e 2 5 . T h e c h a r g e s h e e t … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r ts a t p a g e – I t h i n k – s ix o r s e v e n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a g e 5 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , ja . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The charge sheet begins at page 5. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u ; a n d t h e n if y o u g o t o – i t j u s t t h e – i t d e a l s w it h a l e t t e r to y o u p a g e s 5 a n d s ix a n d th e n i f y o u g o t o a n n e x u r e – t o p a g e 7 . Th a t is w h e r e t h e a n n e x u r e is a n d t h a t is w h e r e t h e c h a r g e s h e e t is . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. N o w m y i n te r e s t r e a l ly i s i n c h a r g e o n e b e c a u s e it – th a t is w h e r e I a m g o in g w i t h t h e q u e s ti o n . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: On page? 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A t p a g e 9 . C o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d p a r a g r a p h 8? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : S h o u l d I r e a d i t? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s p l e a s e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: “ I t is a l le g e d t h a t d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 t o A p r il 2 0 1 3 … ” Page 19 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h a t i s c h a r g e o n e h e y ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a r g e o n e . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u c a n j u s t m e n ti o n c h a r g e o n e a n d th e n r e a d . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: So that even those who do not have the benefit of lo o k in g a t t h e d o c u m e n t t h e y k n o w w h ic h o n e is c h a r g e o n e . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : O k a y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h o n e i s c h a r g e t w o a n d s o o n . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a r g e o n e C h a ir i t s a y s a n d I read: “ I t is a l le g e d th a t d u r i n g th e p e r i o d F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 to A p r il 2 0 1 3 th e employee abused d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e l s a n d t o o k i t u p o n h i ms e lf t o f a c ili t a te a n ill e g a l a ir c r a f t request at the for l a n d in g of an A ir Force Base in t e r n a t io n a l W a te r k lo o f on 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 3 b e t w e e n 0 6 : 5 0 a n d 0 7 : 0 0 . ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n t h e r e w e r e f a c t o r s to s u p p o r t 20 that charge? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I a m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d the question. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. Th is … A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O N E : O h y o u m e a n t h e o n e s b e lo w ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 20 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : O k a y. Th e fa c t o r s in s u p p o r t o f c h a r g e o n e a r e th e fo ll o w i n g : “ T h e I n d i a n H i g h C o m m i s s i o n fa il e d t o p r o v i d e a n o t e v e r b a l e to t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f in t e r n a t io n a l r e l a ti o n s and c o o p e r a t io n . This is a serious in fr in g e m e n t o f d i p l o m a ti c p r o t o c o l a n d h e r a ld e d t h a t t h i s w a s n o t s ta t e b u s i n e s s b u t a p r i v a t e m a t t e r. ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : 9 .2 s a y s : “ T h e e m p lo y e e s p o k e d ir e c t ly to th e C o m m a n d P o s t A ir F o r c e B a s e Wa t e r k l o o f w h ic h w a s i n c o n fli c t o f t h e p r o to c o l to b e u s e d i n t h a t t h e e m p lo y e e d id n o t f o ll o w p r o p e r p r o c e s s b y c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i t h t h e H e a d o f D e f e n c e F o r c e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r th e a ff a ir s o f the base.” 9 .3 : “ T h e e m p lo y e e s t a te d th a t t h e r e w il l b e f o u r t o fi v e M i n is t e r s o n t h e f li g h t . T h i s w i ll b e t h e e q u iv a l e n t o f th e m e m b e r s o f th e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il in S o u t h 20 A fr ic a w h e r e a s t h i s w a s n o t t h e c a s e a n d t h i s c o n s ti t u te d a m i s r e p r e s e n ta t io n . ” 9 .4 : “ T h e e m p l o y e e i n h i s c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w i t h t h e C o m m a n d P o s t d r o p p e d th e n a m e s a n d t h e ti tl e s o f Page 21 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t , M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e , M il i ta r y Ve te r a n s a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t in a n e ffo r t t o p r e s s u r is e th e Command Post to issue the c le a r a n c e f o r s u c h ill e g a l l a n d i n g . ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o o n e o f th e c h a r g e s t h a t y o u f a c e d h a d th e n a m e d r o p p i n g a s p a r t o f th a t c h a r g e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h ic h is c h a r g e o n e . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s I d i d . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o y e s t e r d a y y o u d id … CHAIRPERSON: W e l l – I a m s o r r y Ms N o r m a n . W o u ld i t b e – n o t b e b e t t e r th a t … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e f in is h e s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d e a ls w i th a l l th e c h a r g e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A ll t h r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t t h o s e w h o a r e w a tc h i n g o r l is t e n in g t h e y k n o w what was charge one. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s c h a r g e tw o a n d c h a r g e th r e e . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So that if we have – have to ask him about charges t w o a n d t h r e e t h e r e i s c l a r i t y in th e m in d o f t h o s e w h o – in t h e m in d s o f t h o s e w h o w o u ld d o n o t h a v e th e b e n e fi t o f th e d o c u m e n ts … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t o w h a t t h o s e r e s p e c ti v e … Page 22 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : C h a r g e s r e l a t e d to . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e p r o c e e d A m b a s s a d o r, c h a r g e t w o ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Charge two. “ I t is a l le g e d t h a t t h e e m p l o y e e mi s r e p r e s e n t e d f a c ts in a n e n d e a v o u r t o p r o c u r e th e i ll e g a l a n d u n l a w f u l a n d / o r w r o n g fu l l a n d in g . ” T h e f a c ts in s u p p o r t o f t h i s a ll e g a t io n a r e t h e f o l lo w in g : 10 “ T h e e m p l o y e e r e p r e s e n te d t o th e C o m m a n d P o s t S e r g e a n t M a j o r N ts h i s i i n c h a r g e o f p e r m i t ti n g s u c h la n d i n g t h a t th is w a s a u n i q u e c a s e w i th t h e k n o w l e d g e th a t it w a s n o t. T h e e m p l o y e e m o t iv a t e d w h y h e c o u l d n o t p u t t h e r e q u e s t in w r i t in g b y in n u e n d o s t h a t t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) t o b e o f a s s is t a n c e t o t h e G u p t a f a m il y. ” Charge three: “The employee compromised the processes and procedures of his employer in that there was no 20 r e v ie w a n d /o r r e c o m m e n d a t i o n fr o m t h e p o l i tic a l d e s k i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t o n t h is p a r tic u l a r r e q u e s t a n d t h e i n te r d e p a r t m e n t a l c o o r d in a ti o n p r o c e s s th a t n o r m a l ly e n s u r e s t h a t d i d n o t t a k e p la c e . ” T h e e v id e n c e i n s u p p o r t o f t h is c h a r g e w il l b e : “ O n A p r i l , t h e 9 t h 2 0 1 3 t h e e m p l o y e e p r e s e n te d to Page 23 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h e d ir e c t o r a te s t a t e v i s i t th a t t h e r e q u e s t fo r f li g h t c le a r a n c e a n d l a n d i n g a t Wa t e r k l o o f Ai r F o r c e B a s e for the In d i a n d e le g a ti o n approved by himself. was t e l e p h o n i c a ll y T h e e m p l o y e e f a il e d t o p r o v i d e a n o ff ic ia l c le a r a n c e r e q u e s t r e q u e s te d to do by S e r g e a n t M a j o r N ts h is i a t Command Post. th e A ir Fo r c e A n i n d iv id u a l i n t h e I n d i a n H i g h Commission r e q u e s te d 2 4 A p r il 2 0 1 3 to fa c il i ta t e the employee arrangements on fo r a p r i v a t e w e d d i n g r e c e p ti o n a t W a t e r k lo o f A ir F o r c e 10 B a s e a n d t h is a m o u n t e d t o th e u s e o f a S e n i o r G o v e r n m e n t O ffi c i a l to a r r a n g e a w e d d i n g r e c e p t i o n a t a s tr a te g i c e n tr y p o i n t w h ic h w a s a m a j o r s e c u r i ty v i o la t io n . ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s and then t h is Ye s it was dated 27 June 2013? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: was d a te d 27 June 2013. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u a c k n o w l e d g e r e c e i p t o n th e s a m e 20 day? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C o r r e c t . I w a s c a ll e d b y th e D G to h i s o ff ic e a n d I d i d a c k n o w le d g e i t o n t h e s a m e d a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d h o w d i d y o u p l e a d t o t h o s e charges? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Page 24 of 114 I pleaded g u il ty to 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 a d m i n is tr a t iv e n e g l ig e n c e a n d a ls o i n a p p r o p r i a t e i n fl u e n c i n g o f t h e o ffic i a ls b u t I d i d n o t p l e a d g u il ty to a c tu a l ly is s u in g s a y f o r e x a m p le to s o m e o f t h e t h in g s li k e j u s t t o m a k e a n e x a m p l e in t h e – i n t h e c h a r g e t h a t i s w r i t te n h e r e . T h a t t h e – t h e r e q u e s t f o r th e fl i g h t c le a r a n c e a n d l a n d i n g a t Wa t e r k l o o f A ir F o r c e B a s e f o r th e I n d ia n d e l e g a ti o n w a s t e l e p h o n i c a ll y a p p r o v e d b y m y s e l f b e c a u s e li k e I s a i d I d o n o t h a v e a u t h o r i ty t o d o s o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d i n c h a r g e o n e h o w d id y o u p l e a d ? I n r e s p e c t o f c h a r g e o n e h o w d id y o u p l e a d t o th a t c h a r g e ? 10 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I again p le a d e d a d m i n is tr a t iv e n e g l i g e n c e b e c a u s e th e i m p r e s s io n th a t h a d b e e n c r e a te d w a s th a t t h e r e h a d n o t b e e n a n y a p p li c a t i o n a n d I h a d b e e n in f o r m e d b y t h e H ig h e r C o m m i s s i o n e r o f I n d i a t h a t h e h a d a p p li e d a n d s in c e I h a d i n d i c a t e d a ls o y e s t e r d a y th a t b e f o r e t h a t t h e y h a d a c t u a ll y f o ll o w e d th e s a m e – a s i mi l a r p r o c e s s w h e n t h e y w e r e h o s ti n g t h e H e a d of State. I w a s o f t h e a s s u m p ti o n th a t a l l w a s d o n e p r o p e r ly - b y t h e b o o k a n d th a t is w h y I f o ll o w e d u p b e c a u s e I th o u g h t t h e s e a r e t h e p e o p l e w h o a lr e a d y k n o w s h o w i t g e t s d o n e a n d I d i d a g r e e t h a t is m y – 20 I e r r e d i n t h a t b e c a u s e if – i f I w e r e t o b e C h i e f o f P r o to c o l a g a i n w h i c h o f c o u r s e I d o n o t e n v y a n y m o r e I w il l d e fi n i t e ly h a v e a s k e d i f t h e r e w a s – if a l l th e d o c u m e n ts w e r e f u r n i s h e d . L ik e I w il l s p e c i f ic a l ly a s k i n d e ta il h a s t h e f o ll o w i n g t h in g s b e e n f u r n is h e d b u t a t t h a t t i m e t h e r e w a s a n o v e r s ig h t o n m y s id e b u t t h a t i s b a s ic a l ly w h a t h a p p e n e d . Page 25 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d d id – w h e n y o u p l e a d e d g u il ty t o c h a r g e o n e d id y o u t a k e in t o a c c o u n t w h a t is s ta t e d i n 9 .4 w h i c h y o u h a v e a l r e a d y r e a d o u t w h ic h r e l a te s t o n a m e d r o p p in g ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s I d i d a n d I t h i n k I d i d a l t h o u g h I c a n n o t r e c a ll i t fu ll y b u t I t h i n k I d i d b u t a ls o i n d i c a t e d t o t h a t m e e t i n g m a y b e t h e li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g w a s n o t t h e s a m e e i th e r b u t I d id i n d i c a t e t h a t a t n o s t a g e w a s M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t, M i n is t e r o f D e f e n c e a n d M il i ta r y Ve t e r a n s o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t d id t h e y i n a n y w a y c o m m u n ic a te w i t h m e e it h e r b y t h e ms e lv e s o r t h r o u g h th e i r o ffi c e s o r 10 a n y b o d y e ls e i n t h e o ffi c e s t h a t I s h o u l d a s s is t . S o th e o n ly d i ffe r e n c e is t h a t m a y b e t h e li n e o f q u e s t i o n i n g w a s n o t t h e s a m e a n d p r o b a b ly th e a n s w e r s I p r o v id e d a r e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly g o i n g t o b e c o n s i s t e n t w i th t h e l in e o f q u e s ti o n i n g n o w. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Yo u s e e t h is is w h a t tr o u b l e s m e Ambassador … AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B e c a u s e y o u h a d p l e a d e d g u i l ty to n a m e d r o p p i n g b u t th e n y e s t e r d a y b e f o r e y o u li s te n i n g t o th e r e c o r d i n g t h is is o n e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t y o u s a id y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d t o – t o 20 Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r N ts h is i . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So any person who had been charged k n o w i n g th a t my c h a r g e s r e l a t e d to n a m e d r o p p i n g a n d a n y p e r s o n n o w w h o i s c o n fr o n te d w i t h t h e r e p o r t b y t h e D G i s s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s m e n ti o n i n g o f th e Pr e s id e n t, o f th e M i n is t e r o f D e fe n c e , o f t h e M i n is t e r Page 26 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 o f Tr a n s p o r t t h a t w o u l d h a v e tr i g g e r e d a r e s p o n s e t h a t C h a ir i n a s m u c h a s I c a n n o t r e c a ll t h a t t h i s i s h o w I p u t i t b u t I k n o w th a t I d i d a d m i t g u il t t h a t I d id n a m e d r o p . T h a t – th a t p e r h a p s i s w h a t I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d a r e s p o n s e fr o m y o u to b e y e s te r d a y. A D V D O N M A H O N : C h a ir i f I m a y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DON MAHON: I a p o l o g i s e f o r in t e r r u p t in g m y le a r n e d f r i e n d b u t …. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DON MAHON: I o b j e c t t o t h e f a i r n e s s o f t h e q u e s ti o n o n t h i s b a s is . T h e q u e s t i o n is p u t t o t h e w i t n e s s i n th e f o r m o f t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h h e p le a d e d g u il t y to t h e c h a r g e s a n d i t is p u t t o h i m a s a p r o p o s i ti o n o n t h a t b a s is a n d h e is e x p e c t e d to e i th e r a d m i t o r d e n y t h a t r e c a l li n g fr o m 2 7 J u n e 2 0 1 3 w h e r e a s in t h is v e r y s a m e e x h i b it t h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a t w e c a n s e e w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s r u l i n g is a n d w e c a n s e e th a t a l t h o u g h h e p l e a d e d g u il ty t o th e c h a r g e s th e r e w e r e r e s e r v a ti o n s a n d it w o u l d o n l y b e fa ir t o t h e w i t n e s s r a t h e r t h a n a s k i n g h i m t o r e c a ll b a c k s o l o n g a g o b u t t o a c t u a lly p u t t o h i m e x a c tly t h e 20 n a t u r e o f – o f w h a t to o k p l a c e a t t h e i n q u i r y. R a t h e r t h a n p u t t in g t o h i m a s a p r o p o s it i o n y o u p l e a d e d g u il ty t o n a m e d r o p p in g . W e s h o u l d s e e w h a t i n fa c t t o o k p l a c e a n d t h a t is c o n ta in e d i n th e C h a i r p e r s o n ’s r u l in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I t h i n k t h e y m a y b e w r o n g to s o r t o u t y o u r c o n c e r n w i th o u t a r u l in g . L e t m e h e a r w h a t Ms N o r m a n h a s t o s a y. Page 27 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir th e r e is – th e r e i s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h th e q u e s t i o n b e c a u s e th e q u e s t io n d e a ls w i th t h e r e c o l le c ti o n . Th e w i t n e s s s a y s I d i d n o t r e c o l le c t y e s te r d a y b u t t h e n w h e n I l is t e n e d t o t h e t a p e I d i d . S o I a m ju s t s h o w i n g h i m t h e m a t e r ia li ty o f th e i s s u e a t h a n d w h ic h is n a m e d r o p p i n g , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n y o u p u t t o h i m s o t h a t I c a n … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A m b a s s a d o r t h e q u e s t io n I p u t t o y o u w a s h a v i n g b e i n g c h a r g e d a n d o n e o f t h e c h a r g e s lik e c h a r g e o n e w h ic h d e a lt w i th n a m e d r o p p i n g a n d – a n d w h e n y o u s t a r te d o u t b y c l a r i fy i n g s a y in g t h a t y o u a r e c la r i fy in g to t h e C h a ir y o u s a id t h a t y o u h a d u s e d p e o p l e ’s n a m e s t o – t o e x e r t i n fl u e n c e o n o ffic i a ls . S o th e q u e s t io n i s n o w i f t h e n y o u h a d d o n e s o a n d y o u h a d p l e a d e d g u il ty t o c h a r g e o n e t h a t - b u t y o u w ill c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g - w o u l d h a v e tr i g g e r e d th a t r e c o l le c ti o n y e s t e r d a y t h a t w h e n I r e fe r r e d y o u to p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 . 1 5 o f w h a t is i t t h a t t h e D G s h a d s a i d i n th a t p a r a g r a p h k n o w i n g th a t y o u h a d b e e n c h a r g e d a n d k n o w i n g th a t y o u d i d 20 in f a c t n a m e d r o p a s y o u h a v e to l d u s t h a t w o u ld h a v e tr ig g e r e d t h a t I r e c o l l e c t t h a t t h is is w h a t I s a id o r I r e c o l le c t th a t t h i s in f a c t d i d happen. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I … CHAIRPERSON: May – may … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 28 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e l e t m e p u t i t t h is w a y w i th o u t s a y in g t h e r e i s a n y th in g w r o n g w i t h t h e w a y y o u p u t i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k t h e q u e s t io n a m o u n ts t o t h i s . Having faced a m o n g o th e r s a c h a r g e w h ic h in c l u d e d a n a l le g a ti o n t h a t y o u h a d d o n e what you c a ll namedropping and I am not sure th a t this is n a m e d r o p p i n g b u t w h a t y o u c a ll n a m e d r o p p in g a n d w h a t M s N o r m a n c a l ls n a m e d r o p p i n g . Yo u h a v e h in t e d t h a t – y o u h a d s t a t e d t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t 10 k n e w a b o u t t h i s o r w a n te d t h e G u p ta f a m il y t o b e a s s i s t e d a n d t h a t t h e M i n is t e r B e n M a r ti n s h a d b e e n i n s tr u c te d t o a s s is t a n d th e M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e h a d n o o b j e c t io n . K n o w i n g th a t in y o u r d is c ip li n a r y i n q u i r y t h is w a s o n e o f th e a l le g a ti o n s y o u h a d f a c e d a n d th a t y o u h a d a d m i t t e d t h a t a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i ti o n . T h e q u e s ti o n i s : h o w c o u ld y o u h a v e f o r g o t t e n a b o u t t h a t y e s t e r d a y. H a v e I c a p tu r e d i t c o r r e c t ly M s N o r m a n ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D O N M A H O N : C h a ir i f I m a y ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D O N M A H O N : T h a t is t h e v e r y p r o b l e m w it h r e s p e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D O N M A H O N : Is if w e l o o k a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s r u li n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DON MAHON: H e d i d n o t p l e a d g u i lt y t o n a m e d r o p p in g . Page 29 of 114 He 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 p l e a d e d g u il ty o n ly t o t h e c h a r g e b u t e x c lu d e d s p e c if ic a l ly t h e f a c ts a n d evidence as represented. CHAIRPERSON: N o th a t is f i n e b u t h e i s – h e c a n s a y – h e c a n s a y e x a c tl y w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g . H e c a n s a y n o I d id n o t p le a d g u il ty t o t h a t . I p le a d e d g u il ty to t h a t a n d I e x c lu d e d th e f a c t s . T h a t – t h a t is w h a t h e c a n s a y. A D V D O N M A H O N : A s i t p le a s e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: 10 I th in k C h a ir my le g a l c o u n s e l h a s r e p r e s e n t e d w h a t I w o u ld h a v e li k e d t o e x p r e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y. S o m a y b e w e s h o u l d s ta r t h e r e y o u p l e a d e d – y o u p l e a d e d g u il ty t o c h a r g e – t o a l l t h e t h r e e c h a r g e s . I s t h a t r ig h t ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I f I r e m e m b e r C h a ir I t h i n k I d i d to a l l t h e t h r e e c h a r g e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d y o u s a i d a s I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m t h e r u l i n g o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w e r e – w e r e e x c l u d i n g t h e f a c t s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C o m e a g a i n s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a id i f I u n d e r s ta n d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n ’s r u li n g t h a t 20 is t h e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g C h a ir p e r s o n ’s r u li n g i f I u n d e r s t a n d i t c o r r e c t ly y o u s a id y o u w e r e e x c l u d in g t h e f a c ts . Yo u w e r e n o t p l e a d in g g u il ty I t h i n k t o t h e f a c ts o r y o u – y o u m a y h a v e i n te n d e d t o s a y y o u w e r e n o t a d m it t in g c e r t a i n fa c t s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C o r r e c t Mr C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o w l e t u s h e a r f r o m y o u in r e g a r d to c h a r g e Page 30 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 o n e w h e r e th e a l le g a t i o n w a s th a t : “During the period February 2013 to April 2013 you abused d ip lo m a t ic c h a n n e ls and took it upon y o u r s e l f t o f a c ili t a t e a n il l e g a l r e q u e s t f o r l a n d in g o f a n i n t e r n a ti o n a l a ir c r a f t a t t h e A ir F o r c e B a s e Wa t e r k l o o f o n 3 0 A p r i l 2 0 1 3 b e t w e e n 0 6 :5 0 a n d 07:00 in the morning.” T h a t a l le g a ti o n y o u p l e a d e d g u i l ty to t h a t a ll e g a ti o n . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: 10 C h a i r i f I – I a m n o t a g a in 1 0 0 p e r c e n t c e r t a i n b u t i f I r e c o l le c t I t h i n k t h e t h r e e c h a r g e s w e r e d is c u s s e d a s – th e y w e r e m e n ti o n e d in d i v i d u a lly b u t d u r i n g t h e e n g a g e m e n ts a n d t h e d is c u s s i o n s t h e t h r e e c h a r g e s t e n d e r e d to b e d is c u s s e d t o g e t h e r a n d b e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t t h e m a s w e ll th e y a c t u a ll y o v e r la p in s o m e c a s e s p a r ti c u la r ly i f y o u l o o k a t c h a r g e o n e and charge two. S o w h i ls t I d i d p l e a d g u i l ty t o th e c h a r g e s t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n c o m p o n e n ts t h a t I d id n o t a g r e e w i t h f o r e x a m p l e w h i c h I t h e n r a is e d d u r i n g t h a t p a r tic u la r m e e t in g . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , o k a y. What we do know there were three charges? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w e d o k n o w is y o u p le a d e d g u il ty t o t h r e e charges? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: What we do know is there was charge one, charge Page 31 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 two and charge three? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h a t w e m u s t t a k e a s g iv e n i s t h a t f a c e d w i t h t h e s e c h a r g e s y o u w o u l d h a v e a p p l ie d y o u r m in d t o e a c h o n e t o s a y w h a t d o I s a y to t h i s o n e . W h a t d o I s a y t o th a t o n e ? W h a t d o I s a y to t h a t o n e i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r th e h e a r in g ? I s th a t c o r r e c t ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s , c o r r e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is c o r r e c t . N o w I - i n o r d e r t o t r y a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i t is t h a t y o u w e r e p le a d i n g g u i l ty t o o r w h a t i t i s th a t y o u w e r e 10 a d m i t t in g a n d n o t a d m i t ti n g . I a s k th e q u e s t io n l o o k a t t h e a l le g a ti o n i n r e g a r d t o c h a r g e o n e – t h e a ll e g a t io n s a t p a g e 2 6 . T h e n t e ll m e w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a d m it t in g th o s e a l le g a ti o n s u n d e r c h a r g e o n e . L e t m e l e a v e o u t t h e i s s u e o f t h e f a c t o r s s u p p o r ti n g t h e c h a r g e w h ic h is m e n ti o n e d e ls e w h e r e . J u s t t h a t a l l e g a ti o n . Did you a d m i t t h a t a l le g a ti o n - t h a t c h a r g e o r n o t? I r e p e a t t h e c h a r g e – c h a r g e one. “ I t is a l le g e d th a t d u r i n g th e p e r i o d F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 a n d A p r i l 2 0 1 3 t h e e m p lo y e e a b u s e d d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e l s a n d t o o k i t u p o n h i ms e lf t o f a c ili t a te a n 20 ill e g a l a ir c r a f t request at the for l a n d in g of A ir Force Base 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 3 b e t w e e n 0 6 : 5 0 an and in t e r n a t io n a l W a te r k lo o f on 0 7 :0 0 i n th e m o r n in g . ” A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a ir i f I d o r e c o ll e c t q u i te – I a m n o t s u r e a g a in b e c a u s e i t i s a lo n g t i m e a g o I h a d c e r ta i n is s u e s Page 32 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 w i t h t h e l a n g u a g e a n d t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e c h a r g e i ts e lf w a s p h a s e d . O n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I r e m e m b e r f o r e x a m p l e is th a t i t s a y s o n l i n e th r e e “a n i ll e g a l r e q u e s t ” a n d I w a s a c t u a l ly a s k i n g w h a t i s m e a n t b y a n il le g a l r e q u e s t b e c a u s e I fa c i li t a t e d a r e q u e s t f o r l a n d in g . I d id n o t fa c i li t a te a n i ll e g a l r e q u e s t . I f a c i li t a te d a r e q u e s t f o r la n d i n g a n d t h e – th e r u li n g o r d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s g r a n te d w il l n o t b e w i t h m e . S o f o r m e I r a is e d – I a m j u s t m a k i n g a n e x a m p l e o f o n e o f the things that I do remember that when I read it now I see that I had a n is s u e w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t i t is p h r a s e d “ il le g a l r e q u e s t ” . I a m ju s t 10 m a k i n g o n e o f t h e e x a m p l e s o f w h a t I c a n r e m e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t th e p r i m a r y a l le g a ti o n t h e r e is t h a t y o u a b u s e d d i p lo m a t ic c h a n n e ls a n d t o o k it u p o n y o u r s e l f t o f a c i li t a te a n ill e g a l r e q u e s t b l a h , b l a h , b l a h . L e t u s l e a v e o u t t h e il l e g a l r e q u e s t f o r n o w. Let us assume if it was just a request would you say that you a d m i t t h a t y o u – y o u a d m i t t h a t a ll e g a t io n ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: A g a i n I t h i n k if I r e m e m b e r C h a ir o n t h a t a l l e g a ti o n I i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e r e w a s a c o n te x t i n t o w h ic h t h is a ll e g a t i o n c a n b e p r e m i s e d a n d t h e c o n t e x t o f my i n v o lv e m e n t w a s b a s e d o n th e a s s u m p ti o n t h a t th e p r o p e r d i p l o m a ti c p r o c e d u r e s h a d 20 b e e n f o l lo w e d b y t h e I n d i a n H i g h C o m m i s s io n b u t i t o n ly t u r n e d o u t t h a t in d e e d i t h a d n o t b e c a u s e I l e a r n t t h a t f o r e x a m p le th e n o te v e r b a l e h a d n o t b e e n f u r n is h e d a n d I t o o k r e s p o n s ib il i ty t h e r e f o r e a c c o r d i n g ly t h a t I e r r e d a n d t h a t I s h o u l d h a v e c h e c k e d fir s t w h e t h e r a ll t h e a d m i n is tr a t iv e r e q u ir e m e n t s h a d b e e n m e t a n d in t h a t c o n t e x t th e r e fo r e I f e e l t h a t I c o n tr i b u t e d t o t h e s it u a ti o n b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n o v e r s i g h t Page 33 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 o n m y s i d e t h a t I d i d n o t c h e c k th a t b a s e d o n t h e a s s u m p ti o n t h a t i t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n s u b m i t t e d g iv e n t h a t a f e w m o n th s e a r li e r t h e y h a d h a d t h e H e a d o f S t a t e c o m i n g to v is it a n d w e a r e th e r e fo r e a c c o r d i n g l y f a m ili a r w i t h th e – w it h t h e p r o c e s s e s . S o I a m t r y i n g t o s a y C h a ir e v e n d u r in g t h a t d is c ip li n a r y a c ti o n I h a d t o e x p l a i n t h e c o n t e x t i n w h ic h th e s e t h i n g s h a p p e n w h ic h a t le a s t h e l p e d e v e r y b o d y u n d e r s t a n d e x a c tl y w h a t w a s s a i d a n d t h e p h r a s i n g o f c h a r g e o n e a s i t i s in i ts c u r r e n t f o r m d o e s n o t f u l ly r e fl e c t t h e e n g a g e m e n t a n d th e d is c u s s i o n th a t tr a n s p ir e d w h e n t h i s c h a r g e 10 o n e w a s a d m i t te d w a s e x p r e s s e d to m e . H o w e v e r I t h e n s a i d w i th t h o s e q u a li f ic a t i o n s th a t I h a d m a d e I d o p l e a d g u il ty to a d m i n i s tr a t iv e o v e r s i g h t o n m y s i d e a n d a ls o I t h in k s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h e l in e s o f in f lu e n c in g o f t h e o ffi c i a l s w h o w a s s u p p o s e d to p r o c e s s t h e – th e fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e . I d i d p le a d to t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll d id y o u a b u s e d ip lo m a t ic c h a n n e ls i n o r d e r t o f a c i li t a te t h e r e q u e s t f o r c le a r a n c e f o r th e la n d i n g o f th is a ir c r a f t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: N o . C h a ir I a c t u a l ly a b u s e d t h e p o w e r o f m y o ffic e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I n fa c i li t a t i n g - b y – m y o ff ic e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C a l li n g o ffi c i a l s w h o a r e p r o c e s s in g a n d e x e r ti n g p r e s s u r e o n t h e m b u t a t n o s t a g e d i d I h a v e c o n tr o l o v e r d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e ls b e c a u s e d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e ls w il l r e f e r Page 34 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t o a ls o t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fl o w i n g fr o m t h e I n d ia n H ig h C o m m i s s i o n t o D IR C O a n d t h e ( in d is ti n c t) . I n t h i s c a s e a s I – I i n d ic a te d th e d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e l th a t w a s u til is e d f o r a p p ly i n g fo r t h is fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e in q u e s t io n w a s t h a t i t w a s s e n t d i r e c t ly fr o m th e In d i a n H ig h C o m m is s io n t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e a n d w h a t I a g r e e d a n d I a c c e p t e d t h e n a n d a c c e p t n o w is th a t I u s e d m y o ffic e t o f o l l o w u p o n w h y t h e f li g h t c l e a r a n c e w a s n o t p r o c e s s e d a n d i n l i g h t o f w h a t I h a v e j u s t s a i d t h is m o r n in g t o t h e C h a ir w h il s t I h a d a n in t u i t io n t h a t o b v i o u s ly t h e r e is a n i n v o lv e m e n t o f t h e 10 G u p t a s h e r e a s w e l l I t h i n k i t w il l h a v e b e e n a p p r o p r i a t e o f m e i n h i n d s i g h t e v e n i f i t m e a n s I h a d g o n e t o o n e o f th e S e n i o r O ffi c i a ls in D e f e n c e a n d s a id l o o k o f c o u r s e e v e r y th i n g lo o k s g o o d o n p a p e r b u t I h a v e g o t t h e f o l l o w i n g in t u i t io n . Yo u m a y w a n t t o l o o k i n t o i t a n d I a d m i t t e d t o t h a t a s w e l l C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So – so you – you accept that in the process of s e e k i n g t o p u t p r e s s u r e - a n d y o u m u s t j u s t t e l l m e i f th e r e is a p a r t o f w h a t I a m s a y i n g t h a t y o u d o n o t a g r e e w it h – i n – d o – d o y o u a d m i t t h a t th e r e fo r e i n th e p r o c e s s o f w h a t y o u d i d t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n s o m e 20 o ffic i a ls in t h e D e fe n c e F o r c e y o u – to p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e m e i t h e r t o a p p r o v e th e r e q u e s t fo r a c le a r a n c e o r t o e x p e d it e t h e p r o c e s s in g - o n e o f th e t w o y o u c a n i n d i c a t e w h ic h o n e – i n t h e p r o c e s s o f p u t t i n g pressure on them for one of those two you abused your powers in the o ffic e t h a t y o u h e l d a t t h e t i m e ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a ir I d o a c c e p t t h a t i t i s a Page 35 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 c le a r a b u s e i n h i n d s i g h t a n d I l o o k i n h i n d s i g h t . I t is a c le a r a b u s e o f m y – o f m y p o r tf o li o a s t h e C h i e f o f P r o t o c o l t o h a v e p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e o ff ic i a l s i n t h i s c a s e M r N ts h i s i t o e x p e d i te n o t to - to e x p e d i t e th e p r o c e s s in g o f th e fl i g h t c l e a r a n c e p a r tic u l a r ly g iv e n th a t I h a d n o t myself v e r i fi e d even w i th him whether a ll the a d m in is tr a tiv e r e q u ir e m e n t s h a v e b e e n m e t a n d a ls o in t h e c o n t e x t o f w h a t I h a v e j u s t s a i d C h a ir t h a t a l t h o u g h t h e r e w a s n o d o c u m e n t e d e v i d e n c e b u t I w a s – I h a d t h e i n t u i ti o n t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t o n e c o u ld l o o k a t i n t e r m s o f t h e – o n e o f th e m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p t a f a m il y o r b u s i n e s s 10 m e m b e r s b e i n g p a r t o f t h e t e a m t h a t w e n t f o r th e i n s p e c ti o n . I s h o u ld h a v e a l r e a d y s e n s e d t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g h e r e u n t o w a r d a n d c o m m u n ic a te d t h a t t o t h e , t o m y c o u n t e r p a r t i n d e f e n c e , b e i t t h e h e a d o f t h e G e n e r a l c h a r g e o f t h e Ai r F o r c e b a s e o r w h a t e v e r. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t w h ic h y o u s a y y o u h a d a n in t u i t io n o f th a t w a s untoward, what was that? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I w a s s a y i n g , c h a ir, e a r ly o n w e h a d b e e n t a lk i n g t o th e G u p t a s i n t h e m e e ti n g w h i c h w a s h e l d a t t h e O P Ta m b o I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t. W h e r e th e y i n d ic a te d c l e a r l y t h a t th e y w e r e g o i n g t o h a v e g u e s ts c o m i n g f o r a w e d d i n g e tc . w h e r e i n w e 20 a d v is e d t h a t i t w i ll n o t b e a p p r o p r ia t e a n d t h e m in is t e r a c c o r d in g l y in f o r m e d th e m , M i n is t e r M a r t in s . T h a t s o r r y, I c a n n o t a s s i s t y o u . Yo u c a n n o t l a n d h e r e . Tr y P i la n e s b u r g o r th e o t h e r a ir p o r t . CHAIRPERSON: Lanseria? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: A n d th e n s e c o n d ly, w h e n t h e y t h e n a p p l ie d a l s o f o r t h e f li g h t c l e a r a n c e a t Wa t e r k l o o f , t h e y a ls o Page 36 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 d i d n o t h id e t h a t t h e y h a d w e d d i n g g u e s ts c o m i n g b u t in t h e r e w i ll a ls o b e m i n i s t e r s w h o w ill a l s o h a v e s o m e o ffi c ia l e n g a g e m e n t s . A n d t h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g , n o m y i n tu i ti o n t o l d m e t h a t t h i s is o n e o f t h e s a m e t h i n g b u t I a m s a y i n g , I f a i l e d in m y d u ti e s b e c a u s e I s h o u l d h a v e c o m m u n ic a te d s u c h to t h e , to m y c o u n t e r p a r t o r a t le a s t t o s o m e b o d y s e n i o r in t h e M in is tr y o f D e fe n c e , D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d l o o k i n to t h e m a t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t p a r t w h ic h y o u s a y y o u fa il e d t o c o m m u n ic a t e t o y o u r c o u n t e r p a r t, t h e D e f e n c e F o r c e a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e . 10 Wa s i t t h a t t h i s w a s s i m p l y a p r i v a t e v i s i t ? W h a t w a s it ? I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I d o n o t s p e c u l a te a b o u t w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t b u t t h a t y o u a r t ic u l a te d . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C h a ir, w h a t I a m s a y i n g i s t h a t I s h o u ld h a v e , my i n t u i ti o n w a s t e lli n g m e t h a t t h e r e is fa r t o o m u c h c o in c i d e n c e h e r e . T h a t is b a s ic a ll y w h a t I w a s s a y i n g b u t I w a s n o t a w a r e w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e in d e e d g o i n g t o h a v e m e e ti n g s a s w a s s t a te d w h e n w e d u r i n g t h e C o m m is s i o n t h a t s o m e w e n t t o B l o e m f o n t e i n , o th e r s to C a p e To w n . S o I w a s n o t p r iv y t o th e o ff ic i a l m e e ti n g s t h e y w e r e h a v i n g . I w a s j u s t m a k in g r e f e r e n c e t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h is s e e ms t o 20 b e t h e s a m e p e o p le w h o a c t u a ll y w e r e g o i n g , w h o h a d a c t u a l ly a s k e d fir s t t o l a n d a t O R Ta m b o . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f it w a s t h e s a m e p e o p l e , w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t y o u r a t t it u d e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n , i f y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t it w a s t h e s a m e p e o p le , y o u r a t t it u d e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n b u t w e to l d th e s e p e o p l e th a t th e y m u s t g o t o P il a n e s b u r g o r L a n s e r i a . T h e y s h o u ld n o t Page 37 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 c o m e a n y w h e r e e l s e . H o w a r e t h e y w a n t in g to l a n d in W a te r k l o o f n o w ? A m I c o r r e c t t o t h i n k t h a t is w h a t y o u m a y b e y o u r a t ti t u d e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i f y o u m a d e th e l in k ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: W h e n I s a id , C h a ir, w h e n I f a il e d i n m y d u ti e s , I f a il e d i n my d u t ie s b e c a u s e I s h o u l d h a v e a d v i s e d o n e o f t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e r s i n d e fe n c e a n d s a i d , l o o k w h il s t i t is y o u r p r i n c i p a l’s r e s p o n s i b ili t y t o p r o c e s s e i t h e r g r a n t o r n o t g r a n t . B e a w a r e o f t h e f o ll o w i n g a n d t a k i n g t h e m t o c o n fi d e n c e in t e r m s o f w h a t … ( in d is ti n c t) h a d g o n e t h r o u g h w i t h t h e m . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: A n d le f t it t o h i m o r h e r t o d e c i d e i f t h e y w i ll g r a n t o r n o t g r a n t b e c a u s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Th a t c o in c i d e n c e i n i ts e lf d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r il y m e a n th a t t h e y c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n g r a n te d o r c o u l d h a v e b e e n g r a n t e d b e c a u s e i t f a ll s s q u a r e ly i n t h e h a n d s o f defence. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t it w o u l d h a v e h e lp e d t o g iv e t h e m a f u ll p ic t u r e ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C o r r e c t , C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : T h a t is w h y I b e g a n I s a id I a d m i t t e d th a t a s a g o v e r n m e n t e m p l o y e e , n o t o n ly j u s t a s a D I R C O . I t w a s m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty a ls o t o a s s is t c o ll e a g u e s e v e n i n th e g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts if I c o m e a c r o s s in f o r m a t io n t h a t c o u ld b e n e f i t th e m . I s h o u l d h a v e c o m m u n ic a te d t h a t a n d t h a t i s w h y I a d m i t te d i f lik e Page 38 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 n e g li g e n c e o n m y s id e o n t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s N o r m a n ? ADV THANDI NORMAN: Ye s . Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . S o c a n w e a c c e p t t h e n fr o m t h e r e s p o n s e s th a t y o u h a v e g i v e n th e c h a ir t h a t a t t h e ti m e w h e n h e u s e d t h e n a m e o f t h e Mi n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t , th e M i n is t e r o f D e f e n c e a n d m i li t a r y v e t e r a n s a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t , y o u k n e w t h a t w a s a li e b e c a u s e n o n e o f t h e m h a s t o ld y o u a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h is ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : S o a n d a s s e n io r a s y o u w e r e , y o u c o n v e y e d 10 t h a t li e t o t h e s e e m p l o y e e s in o r d e r t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e m a s y o u h a v e a l r e a d y m e n ti o n e d ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Something I am not proud of b u t y e s i t is tr u e . I d i d p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e m t o p r o c e s s th a t . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Ye s , a n d t h e n f r o m w h a t y o u h a v e t o ld t h e C h a ir a lr e a d y. W h a t is r e c o r d e d w h ic h is w h a t y o u lis t e n e d t o y e s t e r d a y is a c o r r e c t r e c o r d i n g o f t h e s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s , i t i s a n a c c u r a t e r e c o r d i n g a n d a l t h o u g h I a m n o t a n I T s p e c i a lis t b u t t h e v o ic e t h e r e in s o u n d s e x a c tly l ik e m y v o ic e . S o I c a n n o t , I d o n o t h a v e a n y e x p e r t is e 20 t o d o v e r i fi c a t io n b u t t h e c o n te n t o f th e r e c o r d i n g i s fa m i li a r. A n d t h e r e f o r e I c a n n o t th e a c c u r a c y o f th e c o n t e n t o f t h a t r e c o r d in g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . A n d w o u l d y o u th e n e x c e p t th a t i n t h o s e in s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e D G ’s h a v e q u o t e d t o t h e e x te n t t h a t th o s e q u o t a t i o n s a r e c o n s is t e n t w h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n t h e r e c o r d in g t h e n th e c h a ir c a n a c c e p t t h o s e a s b e i n g a c c u r a t e ? Page 39 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C a n y o u s a y t h e q u e s ti o n a g a in , M a ’a m ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O k a y. L E G A L C O U N S E L : C h a ir, a g a i n I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O h p le a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I a m s o r r y I d i d n o t h e a r th e q u e s t io n . M a y b e I s h o u l d h e a r i t b e f o r e y o u o b je c t. LEGAL COUNSEL: C h a ir, I th i n k w e m u s t j u s t m a k e c l e a r w h a t recordings are being referred to because some of the recordings, Mr 10 K o lo a n e w a s n o t e v e n a p a r ty t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u . ADV THANDI NORMAN: C h a ir, Mr K o lo a n e u n d e r s t a n d s e x a c t ly w h a t r e c o r d i n g s w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t . T h o s e a r e t h e a u d i o s t h a t h e h a s lis t e n e d t o t h a t r e l a te t o h i m . I w o u l d n o t b e a s k in g h i m a b o u t r e c o r d i n g s t h a t d o n o t r e l a te t o h i m . T h a n k y o u . I w a s j u s t s a y i n g A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e . To t h e e x t e n t t h a t t o t h e D G ’s h a v e q u o t e d c e r t a i n p a r a g r a p h s , c e r t a i n t h i n g s t h a t y o u m a y h a v e s a i d . In o r d e r f o r t h e C h a ir t o f in d t h a t t h o s e a r e r e l ia b le , t h e c h a ir m u s t l is t e n t o t h e r e c o r d i n g a n d t h o s e y o u w o u ld a c c e p t t h e n a s a c c u r a t e . 20 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I f y o u a r e m a k i n g r e fe r e n c e t o t h e r e c o r d in g s t h a t w e r e g iv e n t o u s la s t n i g h t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s , M a ’ a m I d o . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you very much. Now let us just… ( in t e r v e n e s ) . Page 40 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , m a y b e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : W e ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d , d o y o u a c c e p t A m b a s s a d o r th a t if w h a t y o u s a y i s t r u e n a m e ly, t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e R e p u b l ic a t th e ti m e a n d t h e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t a t t h e ti m e , M r B e n M a r ti n s a n d t h e M i n is t e r o f D e fe n c e th e n w h o I t h i n k i s s t il l t h e M i n is te r o f D e f e n c e n o w. I f it is tr u e a s y o u s a y t h a t t h e y n e v e r s a i d th e th in g s t h a t in t h e r e c o r d i n g o r i n th e c o n v e r s a t i o n y o u h a d w i t h M r N ts h i s i . I f t h e y n e v e r, w h a t y o u s a i d a b o u t th e m w a s u n tr u e t h a t w a s s o m e t h i n g v e r y, v e r y 10 s e r io u s t o s a y a b o u t p e o p l e o c c u p y in g t h o s e p o s i t io n s in t h e e x e c u t iv e . I t w o u l d b e a s e r io u s t h i n g i f y o u s a i d a b o u t a n y b o d y b u t y o u w e r e r e fe r r i n g t o t h e Pr e s id e n t o f th e c o u n tr y, t h e M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e , t h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i f y o u s a i d t h is is w h a t t h e y s a i d w h e n t h e y n e v e r s a id t h a t t o y o u a n d y o u k n e w t h a t t h e y n e v e r s a i d t h a t , t h e n w h a t y o u d i d b y u s in g t h e ir n a m e s w a s v e r y, v e r y s e r io u s ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a ir, I w i ll a g r e e t h a t i t w a s w r o n g o f m e t o u s e t h e ir n a m e s n o t o n l y b e c a u s e I j u s t u s e d t h e ir n a m e s t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e o ff ic i a ls t o d o w h a t th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d 20 t o d o w h ic h is th e p r o c e s s i n g o f t h e fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e b u t a ls o i t p o t e n t i a l ly c a n ta in t th e r e p u ta t io n a n d i m a g e o f t h e t h r e e th a t y o u h a v e j u s t m e n t io n e d . A n d i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I d o t a k e s e r i o u s ly a n d I d o . T h a t is w h y I a d m i t te d r e s p o n s ib il i ty f o r my a c ti o n s i n t h a t r e g a r d a n d y e s i t is a s e r i o u s t h i n g l ik e y o u s a id f o r a n y o n e t o u s e a n y b o d y ’s name out of context. Page 41 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 C H A I R P E R S O N : A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n , i t d i d n o t t a k e lo n g a f t e r t h e l a n d i n g t h a t th e m e d i a s u g g e s te d t h a t y o u h a d m a d e th e s e s t a te m e n ts a b o u t t h e P r e s i d e n t , m a y b e a n d t h e m i n is t e r s b u t I t h in k a b o u t t h e Pr e s id e n t. Is t h a t y o u r r e c o l le c ti o n a s w e ll ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A l th o u g h … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t it d id n o t t a k e lo n g b e f o r e th e m e d i a w a s g o in g w i t h t h e s to r y th a t y o u , w h o h a d m a d e a s t a t e m e n t t h a t n u m b e r o n e o r t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d a r o le t o p l a y. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: 10 It was not very long t h e r e a f te r b u t I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t h o w m a n y w e e k s o r w h a t e v e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t it w o u l d h a v e b e e n a m a t te r o f w e e k s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t a n u m b e r o f m o n t h s . Is t h a t r ig h t? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d I w o u l d h a v e i m a g i n e d t h a t w h e n th a t , w h e n y o u b e c a m e a w a r e t h a t n o w t h is w a s a l l i n th e n e w s p a p e r s , y o u a n d y o u k n e w o r k n o w i n g t h a t t h is w h a t y o u h a d s a id w a s n o t tr u e , y o u w o u ld h a v e t a k e n s te p s t o c o r r e c t t h is . D i d y o u t a k e a n y s t e p s t o c o r r e c t t h is ? 20 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I d id , c h a ir w i t h in w h e n I w a s c a l l e d b y N I C O C I c a t e g o r ic a l ly s ta t e d t h a t n o n e o f t h e t h r e e e v e r g a v e m e a n y in s tr u c ti o n s . M a y b e m y fa u l t w h i c h a g a i n I t h i n k I w il l s ti ll a c t c o n s i s te n tl y w i t h is t h a t I h a v e n e v e r a s c r i b e d t o p la y i n g i n to p u b l ic g a ll e r y th r o u g h th e m e d i a . I h a v e n e v e r, e v e r g r a n t e d a n y i n t e r v i e w to a n y m e d i a p e o p le o n t h is s a g a o r o n a n y o th e r m a t t e r a t t h a t. I d o n o t Page 42 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 b e li e v e i n d o i n g m y o ffic i a l b u s in e s s t h r o u g h th e m e d i a a n d s i n c e t h e r e w e r e o ffi c i a l s tr u c t u r e s th a t w e r e s e t t o d e a l w i th t h e m a t t e r I d i d s e t t h e r e c o r d s t r a ig h t b o t h i n t h e N I C O C a s w e l l a s i n t h e e x t e n d e d N I C O C m e e ti n g s a s w e ll a s i n t h e c o m m i t t e e o f t h e D i r e c to r g e n e r a ls . In a l l t h r e e I d id n o t m i n c e m y w o r k i n s t a ti n g c a te g o r i c a ll y th a t t h e y d i d n o t g iv e m e a n y i n s tr u c ti o n s , th e th r e e e x e c u t i v e s in q u e s t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u a d m i t t o t h e m t h a t i t w a s tr u e t h a t y o u h a d m a d e t h e s e s t a te m e n ts b u t t h a t y o u w e r e n o t b e i n g tr u t h fu l w h e n y o u m a d e t h e s ta t e m e n ts ? 10 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Chairperson again, I do not r e m e m b e r th e e x a c t q u e s t io n . I w il l h a v e t o g o b a c k to th e m . T h e y c o u l d h a v e a s k e d a q u e s ti o n o f s a y in g , d i d y o u g e t i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e Pr e s i d e n t a n d t h e a n s w e r w a s n o . B u t I m e a n th e li n e o f q u e s t io n in g n o w is d i ff e r e n t a n d I d o h a v e , I a m s u r e a ls o t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s a c o p y o f th e q u e s ti o n s t h a t I w a s a s k e d a n d th e a n s w e r s t h a t i t p r o v i d e d . A n d if I r e m e m b e r fr o m l o o k i n g a t s o m e o f t h e m i n t h is l a s t w e e k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: 20 I t h i n k t h e q u e s t io n s w e r e lik e , d i d t h e P r e s e n t i n s tr u c t y o u t o d o t h i s o r d id a n y b o d y in th e Presidency i n s tr u c t y o u to do this. There were even fo ll o w - u p q u e s t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: An d th e n I h a v e to p r o v i d e a p p r o p r i a t e a n s w e r s b u t h a d t h e q u e s ti o n s b e e n p h r a s e d t h e w a y t h a t Page 43 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 y o u o f r a is in g n o w I w o u ld o b v i o u s l y p r o v id e a n s w e r s t h a t ta lk to th e q u e s t io n , th e n a t u r e i n t h e f o r m o f t h e q u e s t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l , i t i s p o s s i b l e t h a t t h e y m ig h t n o t h a v e a s k e d y o u t h e q u e s ti o n w h e t h e r y o u h a d m a d e t h o s e s t a te m e n ts a n d o n ly a s k y o u w h e t h e r y o u d i d g e t i n s tr u c t io n s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o y o u n o t th in k a s y o u s i t t h e r e n o w t h a t e v e n i f t h e y h a d s i m p l y a s k e d y o u , d i d y o u g e t i n s tr u c ti o n s k n o w in g t h a t y o u h a d fa ls e l y s a id , m a d e t h o s e s t a te m e n ts a b o u t t h o s e t h r e e o ffi c i a l s ; t h e 10 P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e tw o m i n is te r s . D i d y o u n o t t h i n k i t w a s i m p o r ta n t t h a t y o u ta k e t h e m i n t o y o u r c o n fi d e n c e a n d s a y, it is tr u e t h a t t h is i s w h a t I s a i d b u t i t w a s , I w a s b e i n g u n tr u t h f u l ? T h e Pr e s id e n t a n d t h e M in is t e r s h a d n o r o le in t h is a s f a r a s I k n o w. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: N o , C h a ir p e r s o n is t h a t m a y b e i f w e w e r e s i t ti n g i n a fo r m a t o f t h is n a tu r e o r e v e n i n a r o o m h a v i n g a d is c u s s i o n , a q u e s ti o n a n d a n s w e r s e s s i o n m a y b e th a t m i g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d . B u t b e c a u s e w h e n I w a s c a l le d in t o th e m e e ti n g , I w a s n o t t o l d . I w a s g o i n g t h e r e u n d e r t h e p r e te x t th a t I w a s o n ly g o in g to b e m e e ti n g o n e p e r s o n w h ic h is M r D h l o m o . B u t w h e n I g o t t h e r e i s I 20 in d i c a t e d , t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f p e o p le a n d I a s k e d t h e le g a l s t a t u s a n d I f e l t t h a t m y r i g h ts w il l b e v i o l a t e d i f I d o n o t e x e r c is e my r ig h t t o le g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti o n . A n d t h e y t o o k a d e c i s io n t h e n t h a t t h e y w il l s e n d m e t h e q u e s ti o n s i n w r it i n g a n d I a l s o t h e n p r o v i d e d a n s w e r s in w r i ti n g . S o I w a s o n l y r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e s p e c i fi c q u e s t io n s t h a t t h e y a c t u a l ly p u t d o w n o n m e . A n d a ls o h a v in g c o n s u l te d m y l e g a l c o u n s e l , m y l e g a l Page 44 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 c o u n s e l j u s t a d v i s e d t h a t tr y t o a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n s th a t y o u h a v e b e e n a s k e d a n d t h a t is w h a t I d i d , c h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in th e o r d id y o u e v e r c o m m u n ic a t e e i t h e r to th e t h e n P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e t w o M in is t e r s a n y a p o lo g y t h a t f o r u s in g t h e ir n a m e s f a l s e ly t h e w a y y o u h a d . D id y o u e v e r c o m m u n i c a t e t o m a k e a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n s t o s a y, I k n o w t h a t t h e n e w s p a p e r s a r e s a y i n g th is t h a t I m a d e s t a t e m e n t s t h a t y o u h a d a r o l e t o p la y a n d I w a n t to a d m i t t h a t I d i d m a k e th e s t a te m e n ts b u t I w a s u n tr u th f u l a n d I a p o l o g iz e to y o u fo r whatever wrong I have done. Because now your names are being 10 m e n ti o n e d i n t h e m e d i a a s p e o p le w h o h a d a r o le i n t h e l a n d i n g o f th is a ir c r a f t . D id y o u o v e r t h e y e a r s , o v e r t h e p a s t s ix y e a r s d i d y o u e v e r d o a n y th in g l ik e th a t ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C h a ir, I d o n o t r e c a l l a n d o f c o u r s e I m ig h t h a v e m is s e d i t p a r tl y b e c a u s e I , t h e r e i s a t i m e w h e n I w a s n o t n e c e s s a r ily a t ta c h e d t o r e a d i n g t h e n e w s p a p e r s f o r a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s b u t I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h a t t h e r e w a s s p e c i f ic r e fe r e n c e t o M i n is t e r M a r t in s g iv i n g m e i n s tr u c t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: 20 T h e r e w a s r e fe r e n c e , M r M a r t in ’s m e e ti n g th a t w a s h e l d a t O R Ta m b o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: An e q u a l ly a ls o o n M i n is te r S iv u y o M a p is a N q a k u la . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Page 45 of 114 And as regards, yes there 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 w e r e a r ti c l e r e g a r d i n g t h e Pr e s id e n t h i ms e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A n d t h e a n s w e r is , n o I d i d n o t g o b a c k to h i m o u t o f s h a m e b e c a u s e I w a s to o a s h a m e d to e v e n f a c e h i m u n d e r s t a n d th e g r a v i ty o f w h a t I h a d d o n e a n d t h e r e f o r e , I c a n n o t g e t m y s e l f to l o o k t h e m i n t h e e y e a n d s a y I a m s o r r y. I h a d w r o n g f u l ly u s e d y o u r n a m e to p u t p r e s s u r e o n th e o ff ic ia ls to p r o c e s s t h e f li g h t c le a r a n c e a p p lic a ti o n a n d t h a t is b a s i c a ll y th e tr u t h . I w a s a s h a m e d l ik e I a m a s h a m e d n o w. I m e a n a l t h o u g h , I a m a d m i t t in g t h e 10 g u il t b u t it d o e s n o t m a k e m e f e e l g o o d o r a n y b e t te r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g y o u a l s o h a v e to d e a l w i t h t h e s i tu a ti o n o f t h e s ta t e m e n ts y o u h a d m a d e a b o u t t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e t w o M i n is te r s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? Yo u h a v e to , t h e d i s c u s s i o n in c l u d e d that. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: N o t i n t h e s a m e c o n te x t, C h a ir. I f I r e m e m b e r, I t h i n k a n d a g a i n h e r e is a lo n g ti m e t h a t i t h a p p e n e d . I m a y n o t r e c o l l e c t e v e r y th i n g b u t I t h i n k t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e t w o m in is t e r s w a s a b o u t, o n e M i n i s te r B e n M a r t i n s w a s a b o u t th e m e e ti n g w e h a d a t t h e a ir p o r t . If I r e m e m b e r w e ll a g a i n , I d o n o t 20 r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l . I w il l h a v e to l o o k a t t h e r e p o r t i f it i s h e r e s o t h a t I c a n je r k my m e m o r y b e c a u s e a l th o u g h , y e s th e d o c u m e n ts w e r e a l l g iv e n t o m e a n d m y l e g a l c o u n s e l , I m u s t a d m i t I d i d n o t r e a d a l l o f t h e m b e c a u s e I ju s t c o u ld n o t r e a d m o r e th a n s o m a n y p a g e s o n my o w n . I m e a n I fo c u s o n s o m e o f t h e a r e a s . I m ig h t h a v e l e f t o u t o n e w h ic h i s o f i n t e r e s t n o w t o t h e C h a ir. S o I w i ll h a v e to g o b a c k to i t a n d Page 46 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 lo o k a t i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W e ll , w e w ill ta k e t h e te a b r e a k n o w b u t p a r t o f a n e a r li e r q u e s ti o n t h a t I t h i n k Ms N o r m a n w a s a s k i n g a m o u n t s t o t h i s . T h e l a n d in g o f t h is a ir c r a f t a t W a t e r k lo o f w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s t a l k e d a b o u t in t h e c o u n tr y f o r a lo n g t i m e . M r R a m a tl o d i g a v e e v i d e n c e h e r e e a r l ie r th is y e a r. I c a n n o t p u t w o r d s i n to h is m o u t h b u t w h a te v e r h e s a i d I u n d e r s t o o d t o m e a n s o m e t h i n g lik e t h a t s u c h a i r c r a ft l a n d e d a t Wa t e r k l o o f w a s a n a b o m in a ti o n . Th o s e a r e my w o r d s n o t h is b u t my u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g h e w a s s a y in g , 10 is t h a t h e w a s s a y in g a s a n a t i o n w e w e r e a s h a m e d t h a t t h is c o u l d h a p p e n . N o w t h a t la n d i n g w a s s u c h a b i g is s u e i n t h e c o u n tr y a n d i t w e n t o n fo r a l o n g t i m e . O n e w o u ld t h i n k t h a t k n o w i n g w h a t r o le y o u h a d p l a y e d i n r e g a r d t o th e la n d i n g , k n o w i n g t h a t y o u h a d b e e n c h a r g e d w i t h a l l e g a ti o n s r e la t in g t o i t a t w o r k a n d y o u h a v e p l e a d e d g u i l ty a n d t h e is s u e o f y o u r u s i n g t h e s e n a m e s w a s m e n ti o n e d t h e r e a s w e l l . H o w c o u l d y o u fo r g e t t h a t in d e e d y o u h a d u s e d t h e s e n a m e s w r o n g l y o r f a ls e l y w h e n y o u s p o k e y e s t e r d a y, w h e n y o u g a v e e v id e n c e y e s te r d a y ? I th in k p a r t o f , o n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s s h e p u t a m o u n t e d t o s a y i n g , h o w is it p o s s i b l e t h a t h a v i n g b e e n in v o lv e d in s o m e t h i n g s o b ig y o u w o u ld 20 f o r g e t th a t y o u d i d a c t u a l ly u s e th e s e n a m e s a n d m a d e t h e s e s t a te m e n ts ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: W e ll , C h a ir f ir s t o f a ll I c a n o n ly s a y t h a t I a m h u m a n lik e e v e r y b o d y e ls e is . T h e r e a r e s o m e t h in g s t h a t a r e p l e a s a n t m e m o r i e s t h a t y o u w a n t t o l in g e r o n fo r th e r e s t o f y o u r l if e a n d t h e r e a r e s o m e th a t y o u w a n t to f o r g e t a n d c l o s e th e d o o r Page 47 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 o n t h e m a n d n e v e r, e v e r g e t b a c k t o th e m i n y o u r li f e . S o I h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s i n m y l i fe o f t h e l a tt e r a n d t h e r e a r e m a n y th in g s r e l a t e d p a r tic u la r ly t o th a t w h o le p r o c e s s . M y f a m i ly, e v e r y th i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d t o m e , m y f a m il y in p a r t ic u l a r a n d m y c h il d r e n i n p a r t ic u l a r t h a t I w o u l d lik e t o c o m p l e te ly f o r g e t . S o w e t r i e d t o fi n d , t o g o t h r o u g h t h e r a p y f o r m e a n d m y w i f e a n d m y c h il d r e n i n p a r ti c u la r t o tr y a n d f o r g e t a b o u t s o m e o f th e s e th in g s . S o I t h i n k m a y b e i t is j u s t th e r e fu s a l o f t h e m e m o r y b a n k t o d e a l w it h s o m e o f th e s e r e a l it i e s b e c a u s e th e y d o n o t b r in g a n y t h i n g u n n e c e s s a r y p a i n t o m e a n d m y 10 w i f e a n d my c h il d r e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k l e t u s t a k e th e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n w e w i ll . I t i s 2 0 p a s t . W e w il l r e s u m e a t 11 h 3 5 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d M s N o r m a n . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir j u s t b e fo r e w e a d j o u r n e d C h a i r h a d t a k e n , h a d a s k e d a b o u t t h e d is c i p l in a r y, c e r ta in m a t t e r s a b o u t th e d is c ip li n a r y, m a y I j u s t r e f e r th e w i tn e s s t o F F 3 , E x h i b i t F F3 a t p a g e 3 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h e r e o n t h a t p a g e C h a ir t h i s Page 48 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 is w h e r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e d is c ip li n a r y d e a ls w i th a g g r a v a ti n g f a c to r s a n d h e a ll u d e s t o – I s e e n o w my p a g e 8 , I d o n ’ t h a v e a p a g e 8 , I m ig h t h a v e t a k e n it o u t . Ye s , a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d a c t u a ll y I f o r g o t t o r a i s e t h a t w i th y o u y e s t e r d a y, th e – I t h o u g h t th e r e w e r e t w o p a g e s m i s s i n g t h e r e b u t i t lo o k s li k e it ’s o n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i t’s p a g e 8 w e ’ ll h a v e th a t r e p l a c e i n d u e c o u r s e C h a ir … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: 10 W e ll a c t u a ll y t h e r e ’s n o p a g e 6 a s w e l l, s o t h o s e are the two pages. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u C h a ir, w e ’l l a t t e n d to t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: C a n s o m e b o d y tr y a n d g e t i t w h i le w e a r e s i tt i n g – w h il e I’ m s i t t in g , g e t t h o s e p a g e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I ’l l a s k M s ( i n d is ti n c t) t o l o o k in t o t h a t thank you. Ambassador could you just look at – can I just refer you to p a r a g r a p h 7 , a l th o u g h i t w i ll b e i n c o m p l e t e b u t fo r o u r p u r p o s e s j u s t t o – b e c a u s e th is i s a m a t t e r t h a t t h e C h a ir h a d a s k e d y o u a b u t , c o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d w h a t is c o n t a i n e d t h e r e i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h . CHAIRPERSON: 20 What paragraph? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a r a g r a p h 7 C h a ir a t p a g e 3 5 . CHAIRPERSON: T h e f a c ts s h o w t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a b u s e d d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e l s a n d t o o k it u p o n h i m s e l f t o fa c i li t a t e t h e i ll e g a l r e q u e s t f o r t h e la n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t . I n m i ti g a t io n , A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a d m i t t e d t h a t d u e t o e r r o r o f j u d g m e n t h e f a i l e d to v e r i fy i f t h e ( in d is ti n c t) p r o v i d e d a n o te v e r b a l e to t h e d e p a r t m e n t, t h a t w a s d e s p i t e Page 49 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h e f a c t t h a t is e x p e c t e d to b e w e ll v e r s e d w i t h d i p l o m a ti c p r o t o c o l, h e w e n t f u r t h e r b y d i r e c t ly s p e a k in g t o t h e c o m m a n d p o s t , A ir F o r c e B a s e Wa t e r k l o o f a n d s ta t e d th a t th e r e w i ll b e f o u r t o fi v e M in is t e r s o n th e fl ig h t a n d f u r t h e r m o r e d r o p p e d th e n a m e s o f M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t , M i n is t e r o f D e f e n c e a n d P r e s i d e n t i n o r d e r t o p r e s s u r is e th e c o m m a n d p o s t t o is s u e th e c le a r a n c e fo r t h e i ll e g a l l a n d in g o f t h e a ir c r a f t . In m i ti g a ti o n , A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e s u b m i t t e d t h a t w h i ls t t h e y a r e , a n d t h u s is w h y … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a t is w h e r e t h e – y e s s o in o t h e r w o r d s 10 t h is i s o n e o f t h o s e f a c to r s t h a t y o u r e g a r d e d a s a g g r a v a ti n g f a c to r s b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e d is c ip li n a r y. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: W e ll p a r t o f th a t p a r a g r a p h b e c a u s e t h e r e s t o f t h e p a r a g r a p h i s n o t h e r e s o I’ m n o t s u r e w h a t th e r e s t o f t h e p a r a g r a p h w il l b e s a y i n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n j u s t a t a p r a c t ic a l le v e l, th e n b e c a u s e t h e n y o u h a d p u t p r e s s u r e a s y o u ’v e a lr e a d y a d m i t t e d , o n t h e s e o ff ic ia ls m i g h t I j u s t r e f e r t h e C h a i r t o F F 4 a t p a g e 193. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I s th is c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e h e a r in g – d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g o r n o t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is n o t c o n n e c t e d b u t it is r e l e v a n t i n t h e s e n s e t h a t i t s h o w s t h a t M a jo r N ts h is i a p p r o v e d t h e c l e a r a n c e o n t h e s a m e d a y t h a t h e r e c e iv e d t h e c a l l . CHAIRPERSON: O h m a y b e b e fo r e y o u t a k e h i m th e r e , A m b a s s a d o r, m a y I ta k e y o u b a c k t o t h e r u l in g o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e d is c i p l in a r y Page 50 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 h e a r in g a n d I ’ d l ik e to t a k e y o u to t h e e n d o f p a r a g r a p h – o f p a g e 3 2 , s t a r ti n g w i t h t h e l a s t s e n te n c e a t th e b o t t o m o f p a g e 3 2 . The C h a ir p e r s o n ’s r u li n g is t h e o n e to w h ic h M s N o r m a n ju s t r e f e r r e d y o u to. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a t s e n te n c e , th e l a s t s e n t e n c e s a y s , “The employee and then it goes on, on page 33 and says, a d m i t t e d t h a t h e b e tr a y e d t h e tr u s t t h a t th e e m p lo y e r e n t r u s t e d in h i m b y a s s ig n i n g s u c h c r u c i a l r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s t o h i m . 10 The n a t io n lo o k u p o n c a b i n e t u n d e r t h e l e a d e r s h i p o f th e P r e s i d e n t f o r g u i d a n c e a n d s o u n d le a d e r s h i p , p a r tic u l a r ly o n m a t t e r s o f n a t io n a l in t e r e s t b y v ir t u e o f th e ir p o s i ti o n s a n d a u th o r i ty. T h e m e n ti o n o f t h e ir n a m e s i s t h e r e f o r e a s s o c ia t e d w i t h a u t h o r it y, t h e e m p l o y e e a d m i t te d th a t h e m is r e p r e s e n te d th e fa c t s i n o r d e r to s e c u r e a n ill e g a l l a n d in g . T h is i s c le a r ly a d is m is s i b l e o ffe n c e ” , D o y o u s e e t h a t p a r t w h i c h I ’v e j u s t r e a d ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s I d o C h a ir. I d r a w a t t e n t i o n t o t h a t l a s t s e n te n c e – w e l l n o t t h e la s t s e n te n c e , th e s e c o n d la s t s e n t e n c e w h ic h s a y s , “ T h e e m p lo y e e a d m i t te d t h a t h e m i s r e p r e s e n t e d t h e f a c ts i n o r d e r t o s e c u r e a n i ll e g a l l a n d in g ’ , I t a k e i t t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e d i s c i p l in a r y in q u ir y in r e c o r d i n g t h a t t h i s is w h a t y o u a d m i t te d g o t th a t r i g h t , is th a t c o r r e c t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Page 51 of 114 C h a ir it – my 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t in t h a t s h e s a id – w e d e b a t e d t h a t a n d ( in d is ti n c t) b y s a y in g th a t C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e f a c t t h a t I t o l d Mr N ts h is i t h a t t h e r e a r e f o u r to fiv e M in is t e r s w a s n o t m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n f o r m e , I w a s t o ld s o b y th e H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r o f In d ia s o I h a d n o r e a s o n t o d is p u te i t , s o I c o m m u n ic a te d w h a t I h a d b e e n t o l d w h ic h t u r n e d o u t n o t t o b e a c c u r a t e a n d t h e a r g u m e n t is , d i d I m is r e p r e s e n t o r I w a s g iv e n w r o n g i n fo r m a ti o n , u p o n w h ic h I t h e n r e a c te d . So we debated t h a t f o r a v e r y lo n g t i m e b u t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y, C h a ir, I a m n o t i n c o n tr o l o f w r i ti n g t h e f in a l r e p o r t a n d s h e is a n d s h e w a s e x p r e s s in g 10 h e r o w n v i e w s w h ic h e v e n n o w I d o n o t n e c e s s a r il y c o n t e n d w e r e a c c u r a te b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t I d i d , w h ic h I a d m it t e d , a n d I a d m i t a l s o i n t h is C o m m i s s i o n f o r e x a m p le , e x e r ti n g p r e s s u r e o n th e o ffic i a ls t o p r o c e s s th e a p p li c a t io n s p e e d i ly, I a g r e e – a c c e p t t h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o I t h in k t h e s e n te n c e to w h ic h I ’v e d r a w n your attention, where it says, “ T h e e m p lo y e e a d m i t te d t h a t h e m i s r e p r e s e n t e d t h e f a c ts i n o r d e r t o s e c u r e a n i ll e g a l l a n d in g ” , I th i n k th e f a c ts th a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e h e a r in g t h a t ’s 20 w r i t in g t h e r e is t a lk in g a b o u t m u s t b e y o u r m e n ti o n o f t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s n a m e a n d m e n ti o n o f t h e t w o M i n is t e r s b e c a u s e s h e r e f e r s t o t h a t e a r l ie r in th e p a r a g r a p h , s o I j u s t w a n t t o c o n fir m t h a t - w h e th e r I c a n a c c e p t th a t o n e o f th e t h i n g s t h a t y o u a d m i t t e d i n t h e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g b e f o r e t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g w a s t h a t y o u h a d u s e d t h o s e th r e e n a m e s w r o n g l y, y o u h a d m e n t io n e d th e m i n o r d e r Page 52 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e o ff ic i a l s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: in t e r n a l d is c ip li n a r y process and I ’v e Ye s I d i d a d m it t h a t i n t h e a ls o a d m i t te d it in t h is C o m m i s s i o n t h a t it w a s w r o n g fu l u s e o f s u c h n a m e s , y e s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a t ’s f i n e , t h e r e a s o n I w a n t e d t o c o n fir m t h a t b e c a u s e e a r li e r o n , y o u ’ ll r e c a l l I a s k e d a q u e s ti o n w h i c h s o u g h t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h ic h f a c ts y o u a d m i t t e d a n d w h ic h f a c ts y o u d i d n o t a d m it in t h e d is c i p l in a r y i n q u ir y. S o t h e c o n t e x t h e r e is t h a t fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d a t t h e m e e t i n g t h a t y o u t a l k e d a b o u t w h e r e y o u w e r e g iv e n 10 q u e s t io n s a n d y o u a n s w e r e d , t h e y a s k e d y o u w h e th e r t h e P r e s i d e n t e v e r g a v e i n s tr u c ti o n s o r k n e w a b o u t t h e l a n d in g , y o u s a i d n o , b u t y o u were not asked, as I understand it, whether you had made this s t a te m e n t a b o u t e it h e r th e P r e s i d e n t o r t h e o t h e r M in is t e r s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Correct. B u t w h a t w e d o n o w k n o w a t l e a s t , is th a t in th e d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir y y o u a l s o a d m i t t e d t h a t y o u h a d w r o n g l y u s e d t h o s e names. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir, j u s t r e fe r e n c in g p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 . 1 5 w h ic h w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h o f F F 1 t o t h e c l e a r a n c e t h a t a p p e a r s i n Ex h ib i t F F4 . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: A r e w e l o o k in g a t F F1 o r FF4? A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : F F 1 , A m b a s s a d o r, p a g e – i f y o u g o t o Page 53 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 p a g e 11 o k a y a n d t h e n y o u j u s t l e a v e t h a t o p e n a n d t h e n y o u t a k e F F 4 a n d t h e n p a g e 1 9 3 , t h a n k y o u a n d th e n in F F 1 a s y o u c a n s e e t h e fir s t s e n te n c e says it was on the 9th of April 2013 when you c a l l e d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Sorry you are way ahead of me, you want us t o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : L o o k a t F F 1 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: At what page? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A t p a g e 11 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: I’ v e g o t t h a t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n F F 4 C h a ir, w h i c h is t h e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y b u n d le a t p a g e 1 9 3 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , I j u s t w a n t t o h i g h li g h t t h a t t h e d a t e o f th e c a l l t o M a j o r N ts h is i a p p e a r s t o b e t h e s a m e d a t e t h a t t h e e x t e r n a l c l e a r a n c e w a s is s u e d w h i c h is t h e 9 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 1 3 , d o y o u s e e that Ambassador? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s I d o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n – t h e n th e o th e r d a t e s t h e y 20 f o ll o w in R S A 4 b u t t h e o n e th a t ’s r e le v a n t f o r o u r p u r p o s e s w h i c h d e a l s w i t h t h e m a i n a ir c r a f t i s t h e o n e t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 9 3 . CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s t r u g g l in g to see where that date is … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e d a t e is r i g h t o n to p j u s t b e l o w o r n e x t t o w h e r e t h e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . Page 54 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 CHAIRPERSON: 9 A p r i l 2 0 1 3 u n d e r th e a d d r e s s - b e n e a t h t h e address, I can see that. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t’s c o r r e c t , th a t ’s th e d a t e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h e n , C h a ir w i ll f i n d t h e n th e s ig n a tu r e o f L ie u t e n a n t C o lo n e l Va n Z y l a t t h e e n d . W e d i d d e a l w i th t h is w i t h o n e o f t h e G e n e r a l ’s th a t t e s t i fi e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u , I ju s t w a n t e d to c lo s e th a t 10 – t o s h o w t h a t o n th e s a m e d a y t h e c a ll w a s m a d e t h e n th e s a m e d a y t h e c l e a r a n c e w a s is s u e d . CHAIRPERSON: Was done yes. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d th e n , i f y o u m a y n o w j u s t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l n o w w h il e y o u a r e d o i n g th a t l e t m e j u s t c o n fir m A m b a s s a d o r, i t m a y b e u n d e r s t o o d th a t m a y b e s o f a r th e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t w e h a v e b e e n t a l k i n g a b o u t t h a t y o u h a d w h e r e y o u 20 m e n ti o n e d t h e n a m e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e t w o M i n is t e r s , m a y h a v e b e e n o n ly t h e c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t y o u h a d w i t h Wa r r a n t O ff ic e r N t s h is i , I ju s t w a n t t o c o n fir m w h e t h e r y o u a l s o t o l d C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n , y o u m e n ti o n e d th e s e n a m e s in t h e s a m e w a y w h e n y o u h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n – a te l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a t p a r ti c u la r s t a g e , whether recorded or not recorded? Page 55 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: A l t h o u g h I d o n o t r e c a ll w h e t h e r I m i g h t h a v e u s e d a ll t h e t h r e e n a m e s b u t I k n o w t h a t w e d e f in i te ly d i d e n te r in t o d is c u s s i o n I t h i n k th e w o r d – t h e u s e o f t h e n a m e o f t h e Pr e s id e n t m i g h t h a v e c o m e u p . A g a i n , I a m s a y i n g , I c o u ld s a y i t t o Mr N ts h is i , p r o b a b ly I w o u ld h a v e s a id i t a s w e l l to C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n b e c a u s e w e h a d a n e v e n m o r e m a tu r e d a n d d e v e l o p e d p r o f e s s i o n a l w o r k i n g r e la t io n s h i p h a v i n g w o r k e d t o g e t h e r f o r t w o a n d a h a l f y e a r s a n d I h a d n o t d o n e s o w i th N ts h i s i . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s I t h i n k in t h e r e c o r d e d c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t y o u a p p e a r e d t o h a v e h a d w i t h C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n – n o , n o I ’ m s o r r y, i n t h e r e c o r d e d c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a p p e a r s t o h a v e h a d w i th Wa r r a n t O ff ic e r N ts h i s i , I t h i n k s h e d o e s s a y th a t y o u to l d h e r a b o u t n u m b e r o n e o r t h e Pr e s i d e n t , d i d y o u h e a r th a t p a r t i n th e r e c o r d e d c o n v e r s a ti o n s ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I d i d h e a r h e r m a k in g r e fe r e n c e t o n u m b e r o n e , I’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r s h e s a i d I to ld h e r o r s h e w a s j u s t s a y in g th a t th is i s a v e r y s e n s i ti v e m a t t e r, I ’ m n o t s u r e h o w to s a y i t b e c a u s e n u m b e r o n e is a l s o a w a r e o f t h is , o r s o m e t h i n g lik e th a t , b u t y e s s h e d id m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o n u m b e r o n e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s h e m ig h t n o t h a v e s a i d s h e g o t t h a t fr o m y o u s o I j u s t w a n t e d to f in d o u t w h e th e r t h a t w o u ld h e l p in t e r m s o f y o u r m e m o r y to s a y n o , I t h i n k I d i d s a y i t , i f s h e s a y s s h e g o t i t fr o m y o u , y o u m a y b e r ig h t , m a y b e s h e d o e s n ’t s a y s h e g o t t h a t fr o m y o u . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C o r r e c t C h a ir, I m e a n a n d a g a in b y a d m is s i o n I w a n t t o s ta t e c a te g o r ic a l ly t h a t i f I c a n s a y i t li k e Page 56 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h a t t o M r N t s h is i th e n th e p r o b a b i li ty t h a t I d id s a y i t t o C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n is e x tr e m e l y h ig h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o f c o u r s e t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t a r is e s o u t o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n th is m o r n i n g i n r e g a r d to y o u p u t t in g p r e s s u r e o n o ffi c i a l s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e is w h y y o u w o u l d h a v e s o u g h t to r e s o r t to t h e s e m e a s u r e s o f m e n t io n i n g t h e Pr e s id e n t’s n a m e , m e n ti o n i n g t h e M i n i s te r s n a m e s t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e m , j u s t to process t h e r e q u e s t f o r c le a r a n c e i r r e s p e c tiv e of whether th e y, u l ti m a t e ly tu r n e d i t d o w n o r n o t ? 10 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Chair I think the mere fact t h a t , a s I s a i d e a r li e r, m y i n tu i ti o n t o l d m e t h a t t h e G u p t a fa m i ly m ig h t b e i n v o lv e d i n t h is a n d a ls o w h a t c o n f u s e d th in g s is t h a t e v e n th e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s a l s o a G u p ta a l b e i t n o t r e l a t e d . O n e I w a n t e d t h e to p r o c e s s i t s o th a t t h e y c o u l d g iv e a n a n s w e r s a y i n g y e s o r n o b u t li k e I s a i d f o r m e to u s e th e n a m e s o f t h e p r in c i p a ls w a s f u n d a m e n t a l t o m a k e t h e m m o v e a t li g h t n in g s p e e d a n d a s in d ic a t e d i t w a s a ls o i s s u e d o n t h e s a m e d a y a n d a g a in i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n d e c l in e d o n t h e s a m e d a y i f it d id n ’t m e e t t h e m e r i ts a n d a ls o if t h e s y s t e m s w i t h i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e t h e m s e lv e s h a d a ls o n o t c o l la p s e d b e c a u s e , c le a r ly, t h e r e 20 is e v id e n c e th a t – a s w a s p r e s e n te d b y G e n e r a l N g w e n y a t h a t I t h i n k t h e ir s y s t e m s a ls o n e e d e d t o b e j a c k e d u p b e c a u s e t h e y h a d c h e c k s a n d b a l a n c e s w h i c h d i d n ’ t s e e m to w o r k . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t w a s i t – w h a t w a s in i t f o r y o u in t h is w h o l e t h i n g , w h y w o u l d y o u r e s o r t to u n tr u t h f u l l y m e n t io n in g c e r t a i n p e o p l e ’s n a m e s in o r d e r t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n o ff ic ia l s a b o u t s o m e t h i n g t h a t r e a l ly Page 57 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 h a d n o th in g t o d o o t h e r t h a n y o u h a d d o n e y o u r p a r t b y p a s s in g o n th e r e q u e s t t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e , w h y c o u ld n ’ t y o u s i m p ly s a y t o w h o e v e r m a y h a v e b e e n p u t t in g p r e s s u r e o n y o u to s a y, th e D e f e n c e D e p a r t m e n t is n o t d e a l i n g w it h t h e s e t h i n g s e x p e d it i o u s ly. W h y w a s i t n o t e n o u g h f o r y o u to s a y, l o o k I ’v e n o c o n tr o l o n th e ir p r o c e s s e s w e h a v e p a s s e d – w e h a v e d o n e o u r p a r t a n d a ll I c a n s a y is , a s k t h e m t o p l e a s e a t t e n d to it e x p e d i ti o u s l y, m o r e t h a n t h a t I c a n ’ t d o . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: W e l l C h a ir t o a n s w e r th e fir s t p a r t th e r e w a s n o t h i n g i n i t f o r m e a t a l l , t w o , w h y d i d I 10 push, I m e a n , I i n d i c a t e d w h e n I s a i d i t in m y te s t i m o n y th a t o n e o f m y c o r e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s w a s s e r v ic in g s tr a te g ic ( i n d is t in c t) r e l a ti o n s w i th a l l t h e d i p l o m a t ic m is s i o n s i n S o u t h A f r i c a a n d I n d i a b e i n g o n e o f t h e s tr a t e g i c c o u n tr i e s a t t h a t w e a r e p a r t o f I B S A t o g e th e r, p a r t o f B R I C S t o g e t h e r a s w e l l , I t h i n k I h a d a n in t e r e s t t o a p p e a s e h i m a n d b e s i d e s t h a t a ls o b u il d a p e r s o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p o v e r ti m e b e c a u s e I w a s i n te r a c ti n g w i t h a l l t h e A m b a s s a d o r s , w h e t h e r o n th e i r n a t io n a l d a y s o r s o m e ti m e s j u s t f o r l u n c h e s a n d t h i n g s li k e t h a t, s o th a t r e a l ly w a s f u n d a m e n t a lly t h e reason why I wanted to - I t h i n k t o a p p e a r t o h i m t o b e th e m o s t e ffe c tiv e g u y w h o c a n m a k e t h i n g s h a p p e n a n d a g a i n , I a d m i t , w i th o u t 20 a n y r e s e r v a t i o n s t h a t i t w a s a w r o n g fu l a c t o n m y s i d e a n d t h a t I in d i c a t e d . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u C h a ir a n d j u s t a f o l l o w - u p o n C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n , w a s i t a l s o n o t b e c a u s e y o u d i d n ’ t w a n t t h i s c l e a r a n c e t o b e d e c li n e d b e c a u s e o th e r w is e , w h y u s e th o s e n a m e s ? Page 58 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: Ye s y o u c a n s a y t h a t b e c a u s e , lik e I s a id , m i n e w a s t o m a k e s u r e th a t I’ m s e e n a s w e ll b y t h e H i g h C o m m is s i o n e r ( in d is ti n c t) o f I n d ia to b e a m a n w h o c a n g e t t h i n g s to h a p p e n a n d a ls o s h o r tly b e fo r e – I t h in k a f t e r th a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o b e h a v in g a B R I C S s u m m i t s o I w a s r e a lly tr y i n g t o a p p e a s e h i m t o th e b e s t o f m y a b i li ty. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d th e n – t h e n t h e a i r c r a f t la n d s a t W a t e r k l o o f … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e b e fo r e i t l a n d s , I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p a r t t h a t 10 y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d n o w A m b a s s a d o r, t h a t , l o o k y o u w a n t e d t o – y o u h a d a c e r t a i n r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e E m b a s s y o f I n d ia , th e t w o c o u n tr i e s h a v e a s p e c i a l r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d fr o m y o u r s i d e y o u w a n te d to b e s e e n a s s o m e b o d y w h o c o u l d g e t th i n g s t o h a p p e n b u t t h e q u e s t io n t h a t M s N o r m a n a s k e d y o u , n a m e ly, is i t n o t tr u e t h a t y o u a ls o w a n t e d t h e r e s u l t o f t h e r e q u e s t f o r c l e a r a n c e t o b e p o s i t iv e ? Yo u r a n s w e r w a s , a s I’ v e u n d e r s to o d c o r r e c t ly, y e s t h a t c o u ld h a p p e n a s w e ll is t h a t c o r r e c t o r d i d I m is u n d e r s ta n d ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: Working on the assumption that the Indian High Commission had submitted all the relevant 20 d o c u m e n t a ti o n , s i n c e n o t l o n g b e fo r e t h a t in c i d e n t t h e y h a d r e c e iv e d a h e a d o f s t a t e th r o u g h t h e s a m e p r o c e s s . I a s s u m e d th a t th e y h a d d o n e it p r o p e r ly a n d o f c o u r s e , I h a d n o r e a s o n t o b e li e v e th a t i t w a s n ’ t g o in g t o b e g r a n t e d a n d a ll I w a n te d w a s t o – I f e l t th a t i t w a s j u s t in c o m p e t e n t o n t h e s id e o f t h e o ffi c i a l s a n d t h a t ’s w h y I w a s p u s h i n g t h e m t o a c t u a l ly d o t h e p r o c e s s i n g a n d y e s , o f c o u r s e , I w a s h o p e fu l Page 59 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h a t i t w o u l d b e a p p r o v e d b e c a u s e I w a s u n d e r t h e a s s u m p ti o n t h a t a l w a s k o s h e r i n t e r m s o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t h a d t o b e s u b m i t t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e p a r t t h a t I w a n t e d t o d r a w a t te n ti o n t o i s t h a t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y a n d I t h in k i t m a y b e t h a t e a r l ie r to d a y a s w e ll a t s o m e s t a g e , y o u r e v i d e n c e a s I u n d e r s t o o d i t s e e m e d t o b e t o th e e ff e c t th a t a ll y o u w a n t e d w a s th a t t h e y s h o u ld – t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e s h o u l d p r o c e s s th e r e q u e s t fo r c le a r a n c e , w h a t th e o u t c o m e w a s n e i th e r h e r e n o r th e r e f o r y o u , y o u ju s t w a n t e d t h a t t h e y s h o u l d p r o c e s s t h e c le a r a n c e a n d – b u t I s e e m t o u n d e r s t a n d 10 w h a t y o u ’v e s a id to b e , y e s y o u w a n te d t h e o u tc o m e to b e a p o s i ti v e o n e a s w e ll . S o y o u ’r e g e t t in g a c h a n c e t o ju s t te ll m e i f I’ v e m is u n d e r s t o o d a n y t h i n g . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C h a ir I w a s o n e , p u s h in g s o t h a t t h e y w o u ld p r o c e s s t h e a p p li c a t io n fo r th e fl i g h t c l e a r a n c e a n d o f c o u r s e , I d o u n d e r s t a n d , l ik e a n y o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t th e r e a r e i n te r n a l p r o c e s s e s , b u t o f c o u r s e , I w a s h o p e f u l t h a t i t w il l b e g r a n t e d b e c a u s e i t h a d b e e n g r a n te d a fe w m o n t h s e a r li e r a n d I h a d n o r e a s o n t o s u s p e c t th a t i t w o u l d n o t b e g r a n t e d b u t w a s ju s t – i n m y h e a d i t w a s a n a s s u m p t i o n t h a t th e r e ’s ju s t s o m e a d m in is tr a tiv e 20 in c o m p e t e n c e b y t h e o ffi c i a l s w h o e i t h e r w e r e j u s t p u t in s o m e w h e r e t h e r e n o t r e a l ly p r o c e s s in g i t a t a l l a n d y e s t o m a k e – t o b r i n g a b o u t t h e d e g r e e o f u r g e n c y I w r o n g f u ll y t h e n d r o p p e d t h e n a m e s o f t h e p r i n c i p a ls b u t a g a i n , y o u c a n - I c a n d r o p t h e n a m e o f th e p r i n c ip a l b u t if t h e i n t e r n a l p r o c e s s e s w e r e fo ll o w e d p r o p e r ly a n d t h e y d e c i d e , s o r r y w e c a n n o t g r a n t , t h a t w i ll n o t r e a ll y a ff e c t a n y d ir e c t e ffe c t o r b e a r i n g Page 60 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 o n t h e is s u e b e c a u s e th e p r o c e s s w o u ld h a v e s t o p p e d i t fr o m b e i n g p r o c e s s e d p o s it iv e l y, l e t m e p u t i t t h a t w a y. CHAIRPERSON: What would you say to the p r o p o s i ti o n th a t m e n ti o n i n g t h e Pr e s id e n t’s n a m e s a n d t h o s e M i n i s te r s to W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N ts h is i a n d m a y b e t o C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a s w e l l, w a s m e a n t t o i m p r o v e i f n o t g u a r a n t e e b u t a t l e a s t i m p r o v e th e p r o s p e c ts t h a t t h e outcome would be an approval? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: 10 I w o u l d s a y … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . A n d n o t th a t t h e y w e r e – n o t t h a t y o u u s e d t h o s e n a m e s j u s t to h a v e t h e p r o c e s s e x p e d i t e d , ir r e s p e c t iv e o f t h e o u t c o m e ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I w o u l d h a v e a r g u e d C h a ir, t h a t m i n e w a s t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e w a s g o i n g to b e e ff ic ie n t a t te n ti o n t o t h e p r o c e s s i ts e l f w i t h th e f u ll a p p r e c i a t io n th a t th e r e w e r e i n t e r n a l p r o c e s s e s t o b e f o l l o w e d w h ic h c o u ld h a v e l e d i n e i t h e r t h e a c c e p t a n c e o r th e d e c l in e o f t h e a p p l ic a ti o n a n d y e s , lik e I’ v e in d ic a t e d I w a s h o p e fu l t h a t it w i ll b e i s s u e d s o t h a t th e I n d i a H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r o r A m b a s s a d o r w il l a l s o s e e th a t I ’v e a c t u a lly a c te d o n t h e m a t t e r e x p e d ie n tl y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t ’s d e a l t w i t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u , Ms N o r m a n ? 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h e r e ’s j u s t s o m e – I’v e g o t t h is n a g g i n g fe e l i n g w h ic h i s s o m e t h in g t h a t I t h i n k I m u s t j u s t d e a l w i t h , w it h y o u A m b a s s a d o r b e c a u s e e v e r y ti m e y o u g iv e a n a n s w e r to the C h a i r ’s q u e s t io n s , you s a y, of course th e r e were i n te r n a l p r o c e s s e s , h a d p e o p l e f o ll o w e d i n te r n a l p r o c e s s e s th e n m a y b e t h is w o u ld n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d b u t I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d a t w h a t p o i n t Page 61 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 d i d y o u r e a l is e th a t a w e d d in g p a r t y f o r t h e G u p ta f a m il y w a s g o i n g t o b e t h e p e r s o n s t h a t w e r e g o i n g to b e l a n d i n g a t W a t e r k l o o f . I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d i n t e r m s o f t h e t i m e l in e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: When th e High C o m m i s s i o n e r to ld m e h e a ls o in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e – h e d i d n ’ t li e , h e s a i d t h e r e w i ll b e p e o p l e c o m in g f o r t h e w e d d in g a n d t h e r e in – i n t h a t s a m e p l a n e t h e r e w i ll a ls o b e M i n is t e r s b u t lik e I i n d ic a te d i n m y e a r l ie r te s ti m o n y i n t h e m e e ti n g a l s o a t O R Ta m b o , i t w a s s t a t e d c a t e g o r ic a l ly t h a t t h e r e a r e a c tu a l ly g o i n g to p e o p l e c o m i n g f o r t h e 10 w e d d i n g b u t t h e y w il l b e M i n i s t e r s . S o i n t e r m s o f t h e t i m e l in e , i f – a n d a ls o my i n t u i ti o n y o u c a n – I c a n a c t u a ll y a r g u e t h a t I l e a r n t a b o u t it fr o m t h e fi r s t m e e t i n g t h a t w a s h e l d a t O R Ta m b o In t e r n a t i o n a l A ir p o r t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d t h e n in y o u r a s s e s s m e n t t h e n , y o u k n e w th a t th e r e w e r e g o in g to b e M i n i s t e r s a n d t h e r e w a s g o i n g to b e a w e d d i n g p a r ty, d id y o u r e g a r d t h a t a s a a ir c r a f t t h a t c o u ld l a n d a t t h e Wa t e r k l o o f B a s e ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I do not have the right to d e c i d e w h e t h e r a n a ir c r a f t c a n la n d o r n o t a t th e Wa t e r k lo o f Ai r F o r c e B a s e , I h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e r e h a v e b e e n s o m e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e 20 p r i v a t e p l a n e s h a v e l a n d e d t h e r e s o – b u t a g a i n i t ’s n o t in m y ju r is d i c t i o n to d e c i d e w h e t h e r – o r in m y, i t w a s n ’ t i n m y m a n d a t e t o d e c i d e i f a p la n e , p r iv a t e p l a n e o r n o t c a n n o t la n d b e c a u s e a s w a s s t a te d a ls o by th e people fr o m Defence th a t , under c e r ta i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h e y d o c o n s i d e r p r iv a t e p l a n e s to l a n d t h e r e b u t i t ’s n o t m e w h o c a n m a k e t h a t d e c is i o n . Page 62 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s o k a y, ja y o u ’r e q u i t e r i g h t y o u ’ v e a lr e a d y in d ic a t e d t h a t b u t l e t – ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir, if th e n a l l o f t h i s h a d t o d e a l w i t h D e fe n c e , D e fe n c e h a d t o c le a r t h i s , w h y w a s i t n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u t o c a ll M r M a tj il a ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I t h in k I i n d i c a t e d t h a t o n e o f t h e p r in c i p l e m a n d a t e f o r t h e C h i e f o f S t a te p r o to c o l is t o m e n t io n t h e m a i n te n a n c e o f c o r d i a l b il a t e r a l r e l a ti o n s h i p s b y s e r v i c i n g e v e r y s in g le d i p l o m a t ic m is s io n i n S o u t h A fr ic a a n d a n y ti m e w h e n th e y h a v e a p r o b le m t h e y c o m e – y o u a r e t h e fir s t p o i n t o f c a l l a n d a l s o i f t h e y ’r e 10 c r e a ti n g a p r o b l e m y o u ’r e t h e fir s t o n e w h o ( in d is ti n c t) th e t o c o m e a n d a tt e n d to i t . S o t h e I n d i a n H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r c a l le d m e b e c a u s e th a t is t h e p r o t o c o l r o u t in e t h a t t h e y w i ll h a v e t o f o l lo w a n d th a t ’s w h y I c a l l e d M r M a tj il a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o b u t w h a t w a s e x p e c t e d fr o m D E C O , w h e n t h a t c a ll w a s m a d e w h a t w a s e x p e c t e d fr o m D E C O a n d w h y is i t t h a t y o u t h o u g h t t h a t y o u h a d t o c a l l M r M a tj il a t o d e a l w i th t h e process. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I’ m n o t s u r e , m a y b e I’ m f a il i n g to e x p r e s s t h is m a d a m b u t w h a t ’s e x p e c t e d fr o m th e C h i e f o f 20 P r o t o c o l is t o f o l l o w - u p a n d e s t a b l is h i f t h e r e ’s a p r o b l e m a n d i f s o w h a t th e p r o b le m i s a n d I m a d e a n e x a m p le a l s o y e s t e r d a y, th a t i f s o m e b o d y p a r k s i n fr o n t o f th e E m b a s s y a l l t h e ti m e , w h a t ’s e x p e c t e d o f m e i s to c a ll t h e d i p l o m a ti c p o lic e a n d s a y, p l e a s e c a n y o u a t t e n d t o t h a t m a t t e r a n d g iv e m e u p d a t e o n c e y o u ’v e d o n e s o , s o t h a t I c a n m a k e s u r e t h a t I c a n c o n fir m w i t h th e E m b a s s y i n q u e s t io n – t h e Page 63 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A m b a s s a d o r i n q u e s t i o n . S o t h e r o le o f p r o to c o l , b a s i c a ll y is t o m a k e s u r e th a t w h e n e v e r a d ip l o m a tic m i s s i o n h a s a p r o b l e m , a n d t h a t h e a tt e n d s to i t b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e s e s m a ll n u is a n c e s c a n a c t u a ll y c r e a te u n n e c e s s a r y p r o t o c o l t e n s i o n s b e t w e e n tw o c o u n tr i e s . S o e v e r y ti m e t h e y h a v e a p r o b l e m t h e y w il l c a l l t h e C h i e f o f Pr o t o c o l . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d th a t b u t w h a t I w a n t e d t o u n d e r s t a n d , y o u m u s t r e m e m b e r y o u a r e d e a l in g w it h t h e p r o c e s s e s y e s t e r d a y a n d t o d a y, y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t I w a n t e d t o s a y t o t h e m , l o o k ju s t c h e c k w h y is t h is p r o c e s s n o t m o v in g , y o u k n o w, w h a t 10 a r e t h e p r o b le m s , b u t I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d a t w h a t p o in t th e n , d i d y o u s a y, D E C O h a s d o n e w h a t i t ’s s u p p o s e d t o d o it ’s g o t n o th i n g t o d o w i t h u s a n y m o r e a n d w e a ll w a lk a w a y. A t w h a t p o i n t d i d y o u r e a c h th a t – d i d y o u , a t a l l , r e a c h t h a t s t a g e o r d id y o u c o n ti n u e t o m a k e t h is w h o l e fl ig h t i s s u e a p a r t o f t h e S t a t e Pr o t o c o l m a t te r ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: N o , a f t e r I h a d s p o k e n to M r N ts h is i , I c a ll e d t h e H i g h C o m m is s i o n e r o f I n d i a a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I’ v e s p o k e n t o D e fe n c e a n d t h e y ’v e p r o m is e d m e t h a t th e y a r e l o o k i n g i n to p r o c e s s – in t o th e p r o c e s s i n g o f y o u r a p p li c a t io n a n d t h a t t h e y w i ll , a p p a r e n t ly b e g e t ti n g i n t o u c h w it h t h e m il i ta r y a t t a c h é , I ’ m s u r e t h e 20 m a t t e r w il l b e a t t e n d e d t o , h o w e v e r, i f y o u ’r e n o t h a p p y, p l e a s e g e t b a c k t o m e a n d t h e n h e c a ll e d m e , I th in k , a d a y o r tw o l a t e r a n d s a id , h e y I f o r g o t t o te ll y o u m y b r o t h e r, t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h w e ’v e g o t t h e fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e i s s u e d a n d t h a t w a s – b a s i c a ll y th a t w a s t h e e n d o f d e a li n g w it h i t t h e n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n – s o I t a k e it th a t t h e r e a f te r y o u Page 64 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 n e v e r h a d a n y d e a l i n g s w i th t h is a i r c r a ft ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I d id n o t h a v e a n y d e a l in g s w i t h t h e fa c il i ta t io n p r o c e s s a t a ll . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay did you attend – did you go to Wa t e r k l o o f o n t h e d a te w h e n th is a ir c r a f t l a n d e d ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s I d i d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay what were the reasons for you to go there? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: 10 I g o t a c a ll fr o m t h e I n d i a n H i g h C o m m i s s io n e r s a y in g – a n d a ls o fr o m C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n i f I ’ m n o t m is t a k e n , s a y i n g t h a t t h e p l a n e h a s l a n d e d a n d – I ’d c o m p l e t e ly f o r g o t t e n a b o u t i t a n d – I w a s a c t u a ll y o n t h e g o l f c o u r s e a n d I j u s t h a d t o s to p p l a y i n g g o l f a n d g o a n d s e e w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g t h e r e a n d w h e n I g o t th e r e s a w t h e m a n y c a r s a n d m a n y p e o p le h a d le f t a lr e a d y fr o m w h a t I w a s t o l d b u t i t w a s l a te w h e n I a lr e a d y g o t th e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d d i d y o u a t t e n d th e w e d d i n g ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: No I did not. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Were you invited? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s I w a s . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Then do you have any or even at t h a t t i m e th a t is in 2 0 1 3 a r o u n d M a y o r A p r il d i d y o u h a v e a n y r e l a ti o n s w i t h t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p t a fa m i ly a s in b e i n g fr ie n d s , a s v is i ti n g e a c h o th e r ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I knew them because they a tt e n d e d m o s t o f – s o m e o f th e f u n c ti o n s th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h o s t e d . Page 65 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 F o r e x a m p l e t h e S t a t e o f t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s th e r e u s e d to b e a tr a d i ti o n a l b a n q u e t d i n n e r a f t e r w a r d s a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u l d in v i t e a n u m b e r o f g u e s ts fr o m m il i ta r y v e te r a n s to fa m i ly fr i e n d s o r b u s i n e s s e s a n d m y j o b o f c o u r s e w a s to m a k e s u r e t h a t I ta k e c a r e o f a ll t h e g u e s ts o f t h e P r e s id e n t a s p a r t o f m y p r o t o c o l e x p e c t a t i o n s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e n – s o n o w t h a t y o u r m e m o r y h a s b e e n r e fr e s h e d b y t h e a u d i o I ta k e i t th a t w h e n y o u w e n t t h r o u g h t h e r e p o r t w h e r e i t d e a ls w i t h y o u r i n te r a c t io n s w i th C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n , y o u r in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N t s h is i y o u a c c e p t th o s e a s th e y a r e ? 10 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n I j u s t t a k e y o u b a c k A m b a s s a d o r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: To E x h i b i t F F 3 t h a t is t h e v o l u m e th a t h a s g o t y o u r d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g d o c u m e n t s . c h a ir p e r s o n s r u li n g t h e r e . I f y o u g o t o p a g e 2 7 t h a t is t h e Excuse me. It says at paragraph 4 – are you there? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 4 t h a t t h e p a r t ie s a s k e d f o r 20 t h e a d jo u r n m e n t o f t h e p r o c e e d in g s i n o r d e r t o d e li b e r a t e a m o n g t h e m s e l v e s o n t h e p o i n t r a is e d b y th e e m p l o y e e . I t h i n k t h e p o i n t y o u h a d r a is e d w a s t h a t t h e c h a r g e s w e r e s p l it if I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c tl y. O h t h e r e – ja . A n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 5 i t s a y s : ‘w h e n t h e m a t t e r r e s u m e d t h e e m p l o y e e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t h e is r e a d y t o p le a d t o th e c h a r g e s a s c a p tu r e d a b o v e w it h th e e x c l u s i o n o f t h e f a c ts a n d e v i d e n c e i n s u p p o r t Page 66 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 o f t h e c h a r g e s .’ T h a t i s p a r t o f w h a t y o u e m p h a s i s e d I t h in k . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: And then in paragraph 6 it says: ‘the employee p l e a d e d g u il ty t o a l l t h r e e c h a r g e s ,’ T h e n t h e c h a ir p e r s o n s a y s : ‘I w e n t t h r o u g h e a c h c h a r g e in o r d e r t o s a ti s fy m y s e l f t h a t t h e e m p l o y e e u n d e r s t a n d t h e e l e m e n ts o f e a c h o f t h e c h a r g e s . Th e e m p lo y e e p e r s i s te d w i t h h is g u il ty p l e a o n e a c h c h a r g e .’ Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: 10 H a v e y o u g o t a n y q u e r y w it h w h a t t h e c h a ir p e r s o n r e c o r d e d t h e r e p a r t ic u l a r ly i n p a r a g r a p h 6 ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: No I do not except to in d i c a t e th a t e a r li e r o n w h e n th e C h a ir a s k e d m e C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I d id i n d ic a t e th a t t h e h e a d i n g o f t h e c h a r g e s i ts e l f I a g r e e d w i t h t h a t a n d I a m n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e f a c t s b u t I t a lk a b o u t th e s u b b u l le t p o in t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: B u t t h e a c t u a l [i n d is t in c t ] charges. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I agreed with that and where w e h a d d i ff e r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Is i n s o m e o f t h e C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e fa c to r s . Page 67 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: S u b p o i n ts u n d e r t h o s e charges. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Ye s I th in k t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r p a r t w h i c h I w a n t e d t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t io n to . O k a y n o I th in k I m a y h a v e m is s e d i t n o w. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f I s e e it a g a in w e w il l t a lk a b o u t it . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . 10 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A m b a s s a d o r th e r e is a l s o Ex h ib i t F F 2 [b ] y o u h a v e m e n t io n e d t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w e r e g iv e n a li s t o f q u e s ti o n s a n d y o u a n s w e r e d t h o s e q u e s ti o n s . Th is is p a r t o f th e b u n d l e s t h a t w e r e c e iv e d fr o m th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r. FF – E x h i b i t F F2 [ b ] C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : E x h i b i t F F 2 [b ] . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F F 2 [b ] y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h a t p a g e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . P a g e 4 4 0 C h a ir. T h e y h a v e s t a r t e d w i th t h e a n s w e r s a t p a g e 4 3 5 b u t I j u s t w a n t t h e A m b a s s a d o r t o 20 id e n t i fy th a t th e s e a r e in f a c t t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t h e w a s r e f e r r i n g t o . A t p a g e 4 4 0 t h e r e a r e q u e s ti o n s fo r A m b a s s a d o r Br u c e K o l o a n e . A r e y o u there Ambassador? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I a m t r y in g to g e t t h e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t p a g e 4 4 0 . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s I a m t h e r e n o w M a ’ a m . Page 68 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u . A r e th o s e t h e q u e s t io n s a t p a g e 4 4 0 /4 4 1 t h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g th e C h a ir p e r s o n t o ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s I t h i n k t h e y a r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o y o u r e c e i v e d th e s e fr o m t h e D G ’s because it has got – you have got – when you responded at page 435 y o u m e n t io n e d M s S i n d a n e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: At page 4? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 4 3 5 W h e n y o u w e r e d e a l in g w i t h y o u r r e s p o n s e s d a te d 1 4 M a y. 10 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Is i t i n t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t 435? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Same, same, same yes. 435. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y y o u h a v e g o t A t t e n t io n T N S i n d a n e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l J u s tic e a n d C o n s t it u ti o n a l D e v e l o p m e n t . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Hm. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s s o t h e s e a r e t h e r e s p o n s e s th a t y o u g a v e t o t h o s e a n s w e r s – to t h o s e q u e s t i o n s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . S o r r y I j u s t w a n t – J u s t a m in u te C h a ir I a m s o r r y I j u s t w a n t t o g e t t h is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Correct. 20 out of 20. And you were a s k e d a q u e s ti o n i f y o u g o t o p a g e 4 4 0 . C h a ir 4 4 0 . I f I m a y d ir e c t y o u r a tt e n ti o n . Page 69 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To p a r a – t o p a g e 2 0 . CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y C h a ir a n o t e h a s j u s t b e e n b r o u g h t t o m y a t t e n t i o n t h a t M r K o lo a n e ’s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s a r e c o m p la in i n g t h a t t h e y d i d n o t g e t t h e fu ll P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t . B u t m a y I j u s t e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r t h e s e q u e s ti o n s w e r e f u r n is h e d t o th e m ? C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a j u s t t a lk t o c o u n s e l . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e tw o o f y o u c a n t a l k a n d s e e i f y o u c a n s o r t i t o u t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n ju s t t a l k t o h e r. UNKNOWN COUNSEL: W e a r e n o t c o m p l a i n in g a t t h i s s t a g e I j u s t pointed it out. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t t h e q u e s ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u d i d n o t g e t t h e f u l l r e p o r t? U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : I f s o m e th i n g a r is e s a n d I n e e d t o o b je c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. UNKNOWN COUNSEL: 20 I j u s t n o t e d m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d w a s a b it a n i m a t e d w h e n I o b j e c t e d e a r li e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. N o , n o t h a t i s a lr i g h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . T h e q u e s ti o n w a s a s k e d w h o s t a te d th a t th e M in is t e r s w o u ld b e a r r i v i n g . T h a t is a t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o f t h a t q u e s ti o n a t p a g e 4 4 0 a n d th e n t h e q u e s t io n w a s – I ta k e i t th a t y o u h a d a n s w e r e d i n t h e Page 70 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 s a m e f o r m a t o f t h e q u e s t i o n s , is th a t c o r r e c t ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: J a th e a n s w e r w a s t h e I n d ia n High Commission. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a lr i g h t . A n d th e n – th e n y o u a s k e d f o r e x a m p l e l e t u s ta k e t h e o n e q u e s t i o n . A n d th e n y o u a s k e d a t p a r a g r a p h 2 6 , w a s A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a w a r e t h a t A ir b u s A 3 3 0 w a s g iv e n c le a r a n c e t o l a n d ? A n d t h e n y o u r a n s w e r t o t h a t. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I said yes. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . 2 8 – a n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 10 2 8 y o u w e r e a s k e d , w h o a t t h e I n d i a n H ig h C o m m i s s i o n a s k e d A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e f o r p r o c e s s i n g a s s is t a n c e ? What was the A m b a s s a d o r s r e s p o n s e ? W h a t d id A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e u n d e r s t a n d th e r e q u e s t t o m e a n ? A n d th e n w h a t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t q u e s ti o n ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: The number 2 and the 28 hey? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s ,y e s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: The number 2 and I agreed t h a t I w il l fo ll o w u p to c h e c k w h a t t h e c a u s e o f t h e d e l a y w a s . u n d e r s t o o d t h e r e q u e s t t o m e a n e x a c tly w h a t i t m e a n t . 20 I C h e c k w i th r e l e v a n t a u th o r i ti e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s w h o is n u m b e r 2 t h a t y o u r e f e r r in g to there? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: T h e D e p u ty – th e n u m b e r 2 in c h a r g e in t h e e m b a s s y. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Page 71 of 114 Ye s . T h a t w o u ld b e th e 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 I n d ia n E m b a s s y ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : Ye s M a ’ a m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d th e n – a n d t h e n t h e r e is q u e s t io n 3 0 . O n a ll c l e a r a n c e s t h e r e a s o n g iv e n is d e l e g a t io n w h y d i d d e p a r t m e n ta l o ffi c i a l s g e t th e i m p r e s s i o n i t w a s a n o ff ic i a l d e l e g a ti o n ? A n d t h e n w h a t w a s y o u r a n s w e r to t h a t q u e s t io n ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I am not sure I get the q u e s t io n h o w e v e r D I R C O p r o t o c o l h a s t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y t o fa c i li t a t e a r r iv a l f o r M i n i s t e r s , H e a d s o f S t a te a n d g o v e r n m e n t a n d e m in e n t 10 p e r s o n s e v e n i f th e y a r e i n a c o u n t r y fo r p r iv a t e v is i t s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . S o i s i t c o r r e c t th a t o n th is – o n t h e s e q u e s ti o n s I w o u ld i m a g i n e b e c a u s e t h e n y o u w e r e n o t a s k e d y o u d i d n o t v o lu n t e e r a n y in f o r m a t io n o th e r t h a n to s i m p ly t o r e s p o n d t o t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t w e r e p u t t o y o u ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r I w a s s u p p o s e d t o v o l u n te e r a n y t h i n g M a ’ a m b u t I th o u g h t t h e i n s tr u c t io n s w e r e c l e a r t o m e . T h e y w e r e j u s t s a y i n g w e a r e g o in g t o s e n d y o u q u e s t io n s a n d c a n y o u p l e a s e p r o v i d e a n a c c u r a t e r e s p o n s e t o a ll t h e s e q u e s t io n s . 20 S o I j u s t p r o v i d e d r e s p o n s e s t o t h e q u e s t io n s t h e ms e lv e s that I answered. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d th i s – y o u r q u e s ti o n s a r e d a te d 1 4 M a y 2 0 1 3 a n d th e r e p o r t t h a t is F F 1 t h e d a t e o n t h e r e p o r t i s 1 7 M a y 2017. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: M a ’a m ? Page 72 of 114 Can you say that again 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o y o u r r e p o r t – t h a t is y o u r a n s w e r s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : To th e q u e s t io n s . Those answers are dated 14 May 2013. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Right. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d t h e r e p o r t t h a t M s S in d a n e t e s ti fi e d to is d a t e d t h e 1 7 M a y 2 0 1 3 . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Correct. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : 10 Ye s . S o I a m g o in g b a c k t o w h a t y o u t e s ti fi e d to y e s t e r d a y th a t y o u w e r e n o t r e a l ly g iv e n a h e a r i n g b e c a u s e b e f o r e y o u l e f t a p a r t ic u l a r m e e ti n g y o u h e a r d M r R a d e b e m a k i n g a n n o u n c e m e n ts o n t h e f in d in g s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I c a n h e l p c l a r i fy th a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I f i t w il l p l e a s e t h e C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : W h a t I s a id is a s f o ll o w s : I w a s in v i t e d – I s u b m i t t e d th e a n s w e r s t o t h e m i n w r i ti n g . And then I w a s i n v i t e d t o a s u b s e q u e n t m e e ti n g b y th e s a m e t e a m o f M i n i s t e r s – o f 20 D G ’s t o c o m e a n d p r o v i d e c l a r i ty o n s o m e o f t h e a n s w e r s t h a t I h a d provided. A n d I w e n t to th a t m e e ti n g t o p r o v i d e c l a r i t y b u t w h e n I w a lk e d o u t o f t h a t m e e ti n g a f t e r p r o v i d i n g c l a r i ty M in is t e r J e ff R a d e b e w a s a lr e a d y r e a d i n g t h e r e p o r t t h a t h a d b e e n c o m p i le d s o I w a s w o n d e r i n g w h e th e r t h e r e w a s – i t w a s a n e x e r c is e i n f u t ili t y t o a s k m e t o c o m e a n d p r o v i d e c la r i ty o n th e a n s w e r s w h e n w a lk in g o u t t h e Page 73 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 M i n is t e r w a s a lr e a d y r e a d i n g t h e r e p o r t. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A n d s e c o n d ly I a ls o s a id i f it w i ll a ls o h e lp t o p l e a s e t h e C h a ir t o m e n ti o n t h is t h a t I s a i d th e r e w e r e four members according to what Ms S in d a n e herself said who c o n s ti t u te d t h e J C P S t e a m a n d I s a id th a t Mr M o y a n e n e v e r s a t i n a n y o f t h o s e – o f t h e m e e ti n g s s o I w a s n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h a t d i d n o t i n a n y w a y p r e ju d i c e m e t h a t I w a s n o t g iv e n a c h a n c e to s i t w i th t h e m b u t s e c o n d ly t h e a n s w e r s I g a v e w e r e n o t to t h e J C P S t e a m a l t h o u g h s h e 10 w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e b i g g e r t e a m b u t th e J C P S w a s a p r o p e r ly c o n s ti t u te d b o d y o f f o u r p e o p l e . I would have expected that under n o r m a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s t h e y w il l a ls o c a ll t h e p e o p l e a n d s a y, a c c o r d i n g t o t h e r e p o r t r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e D G ’s t h is i s w h a t is b e i n g s a i d , d o y o u h a v e a n y th i n g to s a y ? O r t h i s is w h a t s o m e b o d y e ls e s a y s w h ic h c o n tr a v e n e o r c o n tr a d ic ts y o u r t e s t i m o n y, d o y o u h a v e a n y t h i n g t o s a y on that? I w a s s a y i n g t h a t e x e r c i s e w a s n e v e r d o n e a n d I f e l t th a t i n t e r m s o f th e r u l e s o f p r o c e d u r e o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t t h a t is w h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e d o n e . A g a i n i t is a n a s s u m p ti o n . M a y b e th e y w e r e to ld o n ly t a k e r e p o r ts fr o m o th e r s a n d d o n o t b o th e r to c r o s s – t o 20 e n g a g e w i th th e m . I d o n o t k n o w b u t I a m s a y in g I w a s ju s t s t a ti n g a f a c t f o r t h e r e c o r d t h a t I n e v e r o n c e g o t s u b je c te d t o i n fr o n t o f t h e team of the fo u r people who were members of the cluster I c o i n c i d e n t a l ly in t e r a c t e d w i th t h e m t h r o u g h o th e r s tr u c tu r e s e x c e p t o f c o u r s e fo r M r To m M o y a n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . B u t y o u w o u l d a g r e e th a t t h is w a s Page 74 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 in t e r a c ti o n b e t w e e n y o u a n d J C P S t e a m m e m b e r s , M s S i n d a n e i n p a r t ic u l a r ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I would not say… A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u w e r e g iv e n q u e s ti o n s . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: C h a ir I w o u l d n o t s a y J P C S m e m b e r s b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a N I C O C – i t w a s a n e x te n d e d N IC O C t e a m s o I d i d n o t w a n t t o c o n fl a t e t h e e x te n d e d N I C O C t e a m w i th J C P S b e c a u s e s h e s ta t e d c a t e g o r ic a l ly th a t th e J C P S t e a m w a s c h o s e n b y M i n is t e r s a n d t h a t t h o s e w e r e f o u r p e o p le o n ly. S o t h e – I a m n o t s u r e 10 t h e r e f o r e h o w t o r e l a te t o w h a t y o u a r e s u g g e s t in g M a ’a m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W h a t I a m s a y in g is th e r e w a s a p o in t when Ms Sindane whom we know was part of the JCPS cluster in v e s t i g a t o r s w h e r e s h e h a d g i v e n y o u a li s t o f q u e s ti o n s a n d y o u r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t li s t o f q u e s t io n s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I think maybe there must be c o n te x t t h a t is p u t i n t o th is b e c a u s e i t p r e s u p p o s e s t h a t t h e J C P S c lu s te r a f t e r m e e t in g t h r o u g h t h e e x t e n d e d N IC O C m e e t i n g th e n w e n t o n it s o w n t o s e t u p t h e q u e s ti o n s . T h e q u e s ti o n s w e r e r a i s e d – a l l t h e s e q u e s t i o n s w e r e r a is e d w i th m e in i ti a l ly v e r b a ll y i n t h a t e x t e n d e d 20 m e e ti n g . I th e n a s k e d w h a t w a s t h e l e g a l s ta t u s o f t h e m e e t in g b e c a u s e I c o u l d l o o k – I c o u ld s e e t h e p a t te r n o f t h e q u e s t io n s . T h a t w a s n o t in th e J C P S c l u s te r b u t i t w a s in t h e e x t e n d e d N I C O C m e e t i n g . A n d t h e n t h e y p r o m is e d t h a t t h e y w il l g iv e m e th o s e q u e s t io n s in w r i t in g . They could have asked her to then do that but I am saying t h e s e a r e t h e q u e s t io n s w h ic h h a d e m a n a t e d o r w h ic h c a m e u p d ir e c tly Page 75 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 in t h e in t e r a c ti o n b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d t h e e x t e n d e d N I C O C [ in d i s ti n c t ] . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. B u t w h a t is c o r r e c t i s t h a t w h o e v e r g a v e y o u th e q u e s t io n s y o u r e s p o n d e d to t h o s e q u e s ti o n s ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s th a n k y o u . A n d i n th o s e q u e s t i o n s y o u w e r e d e a l i n g w i th th e o n e i s s u e w h ic h i s t h e f a c il i ta t io n o f t h e la n d i n g o f th e W a t e r k lo o f – a t t h e W a t e r k lo o f b a s e ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I w a s ju s t d e a li n g w i th t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t I h a d b e e n a s k e d . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: yes. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h o s e q u e s t i o n s r e l a t e d to th a t in c i d e n t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: N o i t is n o t b e c a u s e i t a l s o t a lk s a b o u t th e a r r iv a l p h a s e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o b u t a r r iv a l o f w h a t S ir ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I a m s a y i n g M a ’a m i f y o u lo o k a t t h e q u e s ti o n s a n d th e a n s w e r s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I t is g o t q u e s t i o n s w h i c h a r e pre-arrival. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: A n d p r e - a r r iv a l p h a s e a n d t h e n i t h a s g o t q u e s ti o n s w h ic h s a y s a r r iv a l p h a s e a s w e l l. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s b u t t h a t i s a r r i v a l o f t h e a ir c r a f t a t Page 76 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 Wa t e r k l o o f . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : C o r r e c t s o n o t o n ly t h e p r e a r r iv a l b u t i t w a s th e p r e - a r r iv a l a s w e l l a s t h e a r r iv a l p h a s e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s b u t t h e in c i d e n t is o n e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? I t d e a ls w i t h t h e … A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : A r r i v a l o f th e a ir c r a f t y e s A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Th a n k y o u . O k a y. T h e n – t h a n k y o u i f y o u c o u l d ju s t t a k e t h a t a w a y. T h a n k y o u C h a ir I th i n k w e h a v e – s o r r y – I t h in k w e h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e q u e s ti o n s o n t h e m a t t e r s 10 t h a t w e w is h e d t o r a is e w i t h t h e w it n e s s b u t t h e r e is o n e r e m a i n i n g is s u e . T h e a u d io tr a n s c r ip t h a s n o t y e t f o r m e d p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e y o u a n d w e w e r e h o p in g t h a t w e w o u ld a s k fo r l e a v e t o p la y a fi v e m i n u te a u d i o w h ic h r e l a t e s t o A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e b e c a u s e t h e o th e r 2 2 m i n u t e s t h e r e i s c e r t a i n c o n v e r s a t io n s t h e r e b u t w e c o u l d lis t e n t o b o t h b e c a u s e M a jo r N ts h i s i is p r e s e n t a n d t h e b u lk o f w h a t is c o n ta in e d i n th e s e c o n d a u d io r e l a t e s to M a j o r N t s h is i . CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure what you are saying. I expect that the r e c o r d i n g s t h a t w e – t h a t w e h a v e g o t w h ic h A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d h is l e g a l te a m h a v e li s t e n e d t o t h a t t h e y w o u l d b e p l a y e d , i s th e r e a 20 p r o b le m w i t h t h a t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o C h a ir t h a t is w h a t I a m r e q u e s t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t u s p l a y th e m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 77 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 [ A U D I O R E C O R D I N G B E I N G P L AY E D ] A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m s o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m s o r r y C h a ir I th i n k i t i s t o o l o u d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t m i g h t b e t o o l o u d b u t w e n e e d t o a l s o i n d ic a te w h ic h c o n v e r s a ti o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e s t a r ti n g w it h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h o n e s o th a t e v e r y b o d y k n o w s w h ic h – w h o a r e t h e p a r tic ip a n ts i n th e c o n v e r s a ti o n s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t d o y o u n e e d a fi v e m i n u t e s a d j o u r n m e n t t o tr y a n d g e t t h e r ig h t l e v e l o f a u d i o ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir w e w o u l d a p p r e c i a t e t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w il l m a k e i t … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Audible. C H A I R P E R S O N : P r o p e r ly a u d i b le . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir t h a n k y o u . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON: W e a r e g o i n g t o a d jo u r n fo r a b o u t fi v e m i n u t e s t o a l lo w t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d t e c h n ic i a n s to f i n d th e r i g h t le v e l o f t h e v o l u m e s o t h a t w e c a n h e a r th e r e c o r d i n g . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . Page 78 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir f o r t h e in d u l g e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u f o u n d t h e r ig h t l e v e l ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I b e g l e a v e C h a ir t o – t o h a n d u p a tr a n s c r ip t w h ic h w a s d o n e la s t n i g h t o f th e fir s t r e c o r d in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s w h ic h i s r e c o r d i n g n u m b e r s ix a n d t h a t is a c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n A m b a s s a d o r – I h a v e g iv e n to th e w i t n e s s y e s t h a n k y o u – w h ic h is a c o n v e r s a t io n M r C h a ir m a n b e t w e e n A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d M a jo r N ts h i s i . A t t h e ti m e h e w a s a Wa r r a n t O ff ic e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w h o l e o f th is r e l a t e s to t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 To t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n . That is correct C h a ir a n d m a y … ? C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u a s k th a t i t b e m a r k e d a s E X H I B I T F F 1 3 B ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A s – a s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: The tr a n s c r i p t of the c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n M a jo r N ts h i s i a n d A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e w i ll b e m a r k e d a s E X H I B I T FF13B. Page 79 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: As – as Chair pleases thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u fi n d t h e t w o p a g e s th a t w e r e m is s i n g ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir Mr D e B e e r w il l – w il l c o n ta c t h i m a s s o o n a s w e a r e fi n i s h e d . H e h a s m a d e – h e is lo o k i n g f o r i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I w a n t e d t h e m b e f o r e w e fi n i s h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W i th – w i t h t h e w i tn e s s ? I w il l … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a s k s o m e b o d y to g o o v e r … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s m a y w e t h e n p l a y …? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n p l a y th e r e c o r d i n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s h e a r w h i c h o n e t h a t i s n o w. T h a t is b e t w e e n A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N ts h is i – M a j o r N ts h is i . 20 that correct? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ( Au d i o b e i n g p l a y e d ) Page 80 of 114 Is 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Is – is t h a t t h e e n d o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n b e t w e e n th e two? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a t is t h e e n d o f t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d c o n v e r s a t i o n a ls o is – i t r e l a t e s t o M a j o r N ts h is i a n d I t h i n k t h e r e is a b i t b e tw e e n M a jo r N ts h i s i a n d A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e b u t o n a v e r y l i m it e d is s u e . I f – 10 if y o u c o u l d c o n ti n u e w it h p l a y in g n u m b e r s e v e n . ( Au d i o b e i n g p l a y e d ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t … ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t c o n t in u e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e e n d o f o n e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a t – t h a t o n e – s o r r y C h a ir. C o u ld you – could you just put it on hold, thank you. in t e r a c ti o n between M a jo r N ts h i s i and C h a ir t h a t w a s a n an a s s is ta n t to Colonel Anderson. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: H e w a s – h e w a s r e q u e s ti n g to s p e a k t o Colonel Anderson on that … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But he could not, yes thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n e x t o n e w il l b e w h o a n d w h o ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e n e x t o n e C h a ir - I h o p e m y s e q u e n c e Page 81 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 is c o r r e c t . I t h i n k i t is g o i n g to b e b e t w e e n M a jo r N ts h i s i a n d C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n b e c a u s e s h e r e tu r n e d t h e n t h e c a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. ( Au d i o b e i n g p l a y e d ) ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e n e x t o n e i s g o i n g t o b e a c o n v e r s a t i o n b e tw e e n A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d M a jo r N ts h i s i . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. ( Au d i o b e i n g p l a y e d ) C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t t h e la s t o n e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n e x t o n e is b e t w e e n w h o a n d w h o ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h e n e x t o n e C h a ir w i ll b e b e t w e e n M a jo r N ts h i s i a n d C a p t a i n C o r t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . ( Au d i o b e i n g p l a y e d ) ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: between T h a n k y o u C h a ir. L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l – Brigadier G e n e r a l L o m b a r d a n d M a j o r N t s h is i. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Page 82 of 114 – T h e n e x t o n e w ill b e I am so sorry – 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . ( Au d i o b e i n g p l a y e d ) ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir I a p o l o g is e . That was between M a jo r N ts h i s i a n d A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r m ic is n o t o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a t w a s b e tw e e n A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d M a jo r N ts h i s i . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W i t h M a jo r N ts h i s i r e p o r t i n g a s t o h o w f a r h e is . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a ( i n te r v e n e s ) . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h e n t h e n e x t o n e C h a ir w il l b e b e tw e e n B r i g a d ie r G e n e r a l L o m b a r d a n d M a j o r N ts h is i . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ( Au d i o b e i n g p l a y e d ) ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And C h a ir t h is w i ll be between M a jo r N ts h i s i a n d a c e r ta i n la d y c a l le d S a r a h – a c e r t a i n l a d y c a ll e d 20 Sarah. I t h in k t h e r e is s o m e w h e r e h e r s u r n a m e . ( I n d is t in c t ) I t h i n k . N o , n o i t is n o t. N o i t i s j u s t – ju s t r e f e r r e d to a s S a r a h y e s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. ( Au d i o b e i n g p l a y e d ) C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e w e n o t h e a r d t h e r e le v a n t p a r t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir b u t w e c o u l d – t h i s – t h is … Page 83 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : R e a ll y is a p e r s o n a l c o n v e r s a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. If we have heard the relevant part we do not n e e d to h e a r p e r s o n a l s t u ff. O k a y. I f a n y o f th e r e le v a n t p a r t i e s w a n t t o li s t e n to t h e w h o le c o n v e r s a t io n th e n m a y b e th e y c a n d o s o b u t w e h a v e h e a r d t h e r e le v a n t p a r t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 ( In d i s ti n c t) tr a n s c r ip t o f – o f th e – t h e o th e r c o n v e r s a ti o n s i n c lu d in g th e fir s t o n e w h ic h w a s tr a n s c r i b e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y o u r – y o u r m i c – y o u r m ic . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I d o n o t k n o w w h y I k e e p o n d o i n g th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y th is b e h a n d e d i n a s F F 1 3 C a n d I w ill g iv e to m y le a r n e d fr ie n d s a c o p y, t h a n k y o u . F F 1 3 C a n d t h e n m a y t h e r e c o r d in g s b e m a r k e d F F 1 3 A ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e – t a k e th a t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: 20 W h y is t h i s w r i tt e n i n t e r v ie w s e m e r g e n c y a n d n o t c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n s o m e b o d y a n d s o m e b o d y e l s e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I h a v e j u s t n o t e d t h a t th e tr a n s c r i b e r s th a t – t h a t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t e d C h a ir. I n f a c t I w i ll a s k t h e t r a n s c r i b e r s t o d o s o r t o f a n i n d e x t o i d e n ti f y a ll th e c o n v e r s a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is a – t h is i s a t r a n s c r i p t o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n i t seems between M a j o r N ts h is i – then W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N ts h is i Page 84 of 114 and 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n . Is t h a t r ig h t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it w i ll b e m a r k e d a s E X H I B I T F F 1 3 C ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A s C h a ir p l e a s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C h a ir, m a y w e th e n a d j o u r n for … CHAIRPERSON: We … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ta k e t h e l o n g a d jo u r n m e n t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: We are at 1 o’ clock … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But I think we are c lo s e d to fi n i s h in g with A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h a t is s o I s u g g e s t w e tr y a n d f i n is h s o t h a t w h e n w e a d j o u r n t h e n w e a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y. Ye s C h a ir t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t h a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Would that suit you Amb assador? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E : I t w il l C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And I am sure your counsel … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh. Page 85 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is h a p p y w i th i t a s w e l l. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Let us do that. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. q u e s t io n C h a i r fr o m o u r s i d e . Maybe just one A m b a s s a d o r in t h e tr a n s c r ip t a s y o u lis t e n e d to t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u – y o u w e r e a l s o t a lk – y o u a ls o s a i d you were asking that the recording that the recording be marked ( in t e r v e n e s ) . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h th e a u d i o – F … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e r e is th e r e c o r d i n g ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e r e c o r d i n g C h a ir w il l h a v e to b e g iv e n t o t h e R e g is tr a r in a fl a s h d is k – i n a m e m o r y s t ic k . CHAIRPERSON: When you do that … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e n w e w il l … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i ll e n t e r it . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l – I c a n n o t e n te r s o m e t h i n g t h a t is n o t h e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A lr i g h t , t h a n k y o u . Ambassador in the tr a n s c r ip t b e t w e e n - th e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n y o u a n d M a jo r N ts h i s i t h e r e is s o m e w h e r e w h e r e h e is s a y i n g t h a t it is n o t p o s s ib l e – t h e tr a n s c r ip t a t p a g e 5 . T h a t is F F 1 3 B . “ T h e c h a l le n g e t h a t I c a n n o t p u t a l l t h e d e ta il I a m Page 86 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 g iv i n g y o u i n w r i ti n g . ” Wa s t h e r e a r e a s o n f o r n o t p u t ti n g t h o s e d e ta ils in w r i ti n g ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s m a ’ a m . I t h in k b e f o r e t h e r e c o r d i n g I e x p la i n e d th a t I h a d w r o n g fu lly u s e d t h e n a m e s o f th e M i n is t e r s a n d th e Pr e s id e n t a n d I w a s n o t g o i n g t o r i s k p u t ti n g t h a t i n w r i t in g b e c a u s e I k n e w th a t i t w a s w r o n g f u l m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n b a s ic a l ly. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: A n d I h a v e a d m i t te d t h a t e a r l ie r o n t o o . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I th in k – I t h i n k w e h a v e c o v e r e d m o s t o f th e – o f t h e a r e a s w e n e e d e d t o c o v e r w i t h A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e , t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e t w o p a g e s t h a t I h a v e n o t g o t? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th e t w o p a g e s , u n f o r t u n a t e l y t h e y h a v e n ’ t c o m e to h a n d C h a ir, b u t I h a d r e q u e s te d t h a t – b e c a u s e M r D e B e e r a p p a r e n t ly d o e s n o t h a v e t h e m a n d t h e n I ’v e a s k e d t h a t t h e y m u s t j u s t a p p r o a c h D I R C O w i th t h o s e . CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e m ig h t w e ll b e s o m e th i n g i n t h o s e p a g e s w h ic h m ig h t b e r e l e v a n t. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W h ic h I m ig h t w a n t to – m i g h t w a n t e d t o h a v e r a i s e d w i t h t h e w i tn e s s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A m b a s s a d o r, Ms N o r ma n s u g g e s te d t o y o u t h i s m o r n in g , a f t e r y o u h a d g iv e n c l a r i f ic a t i o n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e o f y e s te r d a y, Page 87 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h a t i t m a y n o t b e tr u e t h a t w h e n y e s t e r d a y, y o u g a v e th e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u g a v e , w it h r e g a r d t o m e n t i o n i n g th e n a m e o f th e Pr e s id e n t a n d t h e M i n is t e r s , i t m a y n o t b e tr u e th a t y o u d i d n o t r e m e m b e r t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e m a y h a v e s u g g e s t e d th a t y o u d id n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u h a d m a d e th o s e s t a te m e n ts o r n o t o r s h e m ig h t h a v e b e e n s a y in g in r e g a r d t o s o m e o f t h o s e s ta t e m e n t s y o u a c t u a ll y d e n i e d h a v i n g m a d e t h e m a n d s h e w a s s u g g e s t i n g i f t h a t w a s t h e c a s e th a t i t c o u l d n o t b e t r u e t h a t y o u d e n i e d i n t h e g e n u in e b e li e f th a t y o u d i d n o t m a k e t h o s e s t a te m e n ts . 10 I ’ m p u t ti n g t h i s i n m y o w n w o r d s b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t it r e fl e c ts t h e g i s t o f w h a t s h e w a s s a y i n g , M s N o r m a n a m I r ig h t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t c h a ir, th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u u n d e r s to o d t h a t s u g g e s t io n fr o m h e r ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s C h a ir I d i d a n d I f o u n d it t o b e h e r o w n o r s u b j e c ti v e a s s e s s m e n t o f t h e s i t u a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Which cannot be backed u p w i t h a n y, y o u k n o w, t a n g i b l e e v i d e n c e it ’s a l l s p e c u l a ti v e , t h a t’s w h a t s h e t h i n k s b u t I a l s o in d i c a t e d t h a t w h e n p e o p le g o t h r o u g h v e r y 20 u n p le a s a n t e x p e r i e n c e s i n t h e ir li v e s a n d t h e y g o t h r o u g h t h e r a p y, o n e o f th e r e a s o n s is b e c a u s e t h e y w a n t t o c l o s e t h a t c h a p t e r a n d s o s o m e o f th o s e t h i n g s d o n ’ t li n g e r o n f o r th e r e s t o f th e ir liv e s a n d ju s t fo r th e r e c o r d C h a ir, I a ls o w a n t t o i n d ic a t e t h a t i t w a s m y s e l f, t h r o u g h m y le g a l c o u n s e l w h o r e q u e s t e d t h e r e c o r d in g s , i t ’s n o t t h a t w e w e r e o ffe r e d , w e r e q u e s te d t h e m b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d to r e fr e s h a n d d e s p i t e Page 88 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h e f a c t t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n c o n ta in e d t h e r e i n i n c r i m i n a t e s m e d ir e c t ly o r p u t s m e d ir e c tl y r e s p o n s i b l e in t e r m s o f tr y i n g t o i n fl u e n c e o ff ic i a ls . W e d i d n o t m a k e a n e ff o r t to tr y a n d p o s t p o n e o r d o a n y th i n g u n t o w a r d , a l l w e d i d is , w e u s e d t h a t t o j a c k u p t h e m e m o r y a n d I d i d n ’ t c o m e h e r e t o li e , I c a m e h e r e t o te ll t h e tr u t h a n d t h a t ’s w h y t h a n k s t o t h e C h a ir, a u t h o r is in g t h a t w e b e g iv e n th a t , I h a d t h e b e n e f i t o f r e fr e s h in g m y m i n d t h r o u g h t h e u s e o f a m e m o r y s ti c k a n d I w a s a b l e to p r o v i d e a c o r r e c t io n , t h a t’s w h y I r e q u e s t e d t h a t i n t h e b e g in n i n g o f t h e s e s s i o n . S o I b e l ie v e C h a ir t h a t w it h a ll d u e r e s p e c t, s h e is e n t it l e d t o h e r 10 o p i n i o n l ik e I a m a s w e ll e n ti tl e d , o n m y o w n o p i n i o n o n a n y o th e r m a t t e r b u t I w il l n o t , t h e r e f o r e w a n t t o g iv e i t a n y s t a t u s i n m y assessment. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I t h i n k y o u h a v e a g o o d u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t s h e w a s s a y in g a s s h e w a s p u t ti n g t o y o u w h a t , e i t h e r s h e m a k e s o u t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e in t h a t r e g a r d o r w h a t s h e c o u l d b e s a y in g , th a t ’s h o w s o m e b o d y e l s e m i g h t l o o k a t i t a n d y o u h a v e in d ic a t e d w h a t y o u r r e a c ti o n is to th a t . N o w in th e e n d , I m u s t l is t e n t o a l l s i d e s a n d l o o k a t a l l p e r s p e c t iv e s a n d m a k e f in d in g s a s t o w h a t t h e p o s i t io n is . It is t h e r e f o r e i m p o r t a n t t h a t I g e t y o u r p e r s p e c ti v e a n d d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c tiv e 20 a s c l e a r ly a s p o s s ib le . S o p a r t o f t h e q u e s ti o n s I ’ m g o i n g t o a s k y o u n o w – p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n i s , I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e s p r o p e r ly. N o w y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n , I t h in k w e d e a l t w i t h th is , y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n w i th i n w e e k s a f t e r t h e in c i d e n t h a d h a p p e n e d , t h a t th e n a t i o n , t h r o u g h t h e m e d i a w a s b e in g t o l d t h a t y o u m a d e s t a te m e n ts s u g g e s ti n g t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y, a t l e a s t I Page 89 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h a t th e M i n is t e r s h a d , h a d a r o l e in t h is t h i n g , d o y o u remember that? Yo u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n a f te r a f e w w e e k s th a t , th a t ’s w h a t th e m e d i a w a s s a y i n g is t h a t r ig h t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Correct. I g u e s s t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e a l s o a p p r e c i a te d th a t in th e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g t h e is s u e o f y o u r u s e o f t h e n a m e s o f th e P r e s i d e n t a n d th e M i n is t e r s w a s r a is e d a g a i n , is t h a t r ig h t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: 10 Correct. A n d i t o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n s o m e t h in g t h a t h a d a n i m p a c t o n y o u t o k n o w t h a t i f y o u r v e r s i o n is tr u e t h a t t h e M i n i s te r s a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t h a d n e v e r h a d a r o le i n t h i s t h i n g , it o u g h t to h a v e b e e n s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a d a n i m p a c t o n y o u t h a t h e n a t io n w a s b e in g t o ld th a t y o u m a d e t h e s e s t a t e m e n t s th a t , f o r e x a m p l e , t h e Pr e s i d e n t h a d a r o le a n d y e t y o u k n e w t h a t , t h a t w a s n o t tr u e a n d y o u k n e w t h a t y o u h a d s a i d t h a t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s , I d id C h a i r a n d I m u s t a ls o , a g a i n m a y b e r e i te r a t e t h a t a t t h a t m o m e n t m y c o n f id e n c e in t h e m e d i a h a d b e e n e r o d e d b e c a u s e t h e y h a d m a d e a ll s o r ts o f a ll e g a t io n s a b o u t m e w it h o u t a n y t a n g i b l e e v id e n c e , a n e x a m p l e w a s a n a l le g a ti o n 20 t h a t t h e G u p ta ’s b o u g h t m e a p r o p e r t y f o r 6 m i ll io n d o l la r s i n M a u r it i u s a n d a ll s o r t s o f th i n g s . S o I k n e w i f I w e n t t o t h e s a m e p e o p le w h o h a v e b e e n p e d d li n g l i e s lik e t h a t , t h e y w e r e n o t g o i n g t o p u b li s h a n a r ti c l e w h ic h c o n tr a d ic ts w h a t t h e y ’r e a c t u a l ly p e d d li n g a n d a l s o , l ik e I s a i d , I h a d a ls o j u s t h a d t o o m u c h o f t h e m e d ia w r it i n g , I m e a n e v e r y t h i n g t h a t – t o b e q u i t e h o n e s t , t h e C h a ir w i ll a ls o b e a w a r e th a t Page 90 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 b e f o r e I e v e n s a t i n s o m e o f t h e C o m m it t e e m e e ti n g s w h e r e I w a s a s k e d q u e s ti o n s , I h a d a lr e a d y b e e n tr i e d a n d fo u n d g u i lt y i n t h e m e d i a , i t ’s a m e t h o d o f c o m m o n c a u s e , e v e r y b o d y k n o w s a b o u t t h a t a n d a l l s o r ts o f p e r m u t a t io n s w e r e p r e s e n t e d e t c e t e r a a n d th a t ’s w h y I c o u l d n o t g o t o th e m e d ia I d o n o t – l ik e I s a id I d o n o t b e l ie v e i n p l a y in g in t h e p u b li c g a l l e r y b u t i n d e e d – i n h i n d s i g h t , m a y b e I s h o u ld h a v e a t le a s t h a v e w r i t te n a l e t te r o r l e t t e r s t o t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d e x p r e s s e d m y a p o lo g y b e c a u s e I w a s j u s t t o o s c a r e d o r a s h a m e d t o g o a n a p p r o a c h – a n d s e e h i m i n p e r s o n a n d a g a in , i t ’s s o m e th in g I m a y c o n s i d e r d o i n g , 10 n o w t h a t t h e C h a ir h a s a c t u a l ly, y o u k n o w, r a is e d th a t w i th m e b e l a te d a s i t is , I w il l s t ill a t l e a s t e n d e a v o u r t o w r i t e th e le t t e r s t o th e t h r e e , t h a t is t h e P r e s id e n t a n d t h e t w o M i n i s t e r s to e x p r e s s m y u n w a v e r i n g a p o lo g y f o r w h a t I h a d p u t t h e m t h r o u g h . I k n o w i t ’s la t e , m a y b e e v e n t o o la t e b u t a t l e a s t t o t a k e h e e d o f th e C h a i r ’s w i s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , I w i ll d e f i n i t e ly t a k e t h a t u n d e r c o n s i d e r a ti o n a n d I c a n a s s u r e t h e C h a ir t h a t s u c h le t t e r s w il l b e d r a f te d b y m y s e l f a n d s e n t t o t h e m a s a n e x p r e s s io n o f a p o l o g y b u t i f th e y th e n s a y, n o I m u s t g o a n d m e e t th e m in p e r s o n , I w i ll b u t r i g h t n o w I ’ m ju s t t o o a s h a m e d t o e v e n g o s i t a n d lo o k a t t h e ir f a c e s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I w a s n ’ t m a k i n g a n y r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t y o u s h o u l d d o a n y t h i n g , I w a s j u s t a s k in g w h e t h e r y o u e v e r c o n s i d e r e d a n y th in g lik e t h a t b e c a u s e , o n y o u r v e r s io n , t h e m e d ia w a s s a y i n g s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s tr u e t o th e e x t e n t th a t i t w a s s a y in g , y o u h a d m a d e s t a te m e n ts t h a t s u g g e s t e d th a t a t l e a s t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d a r o l e , y o u k n e w t h a t , t h a t w a s tr u e t h a t y o u h a d m a d e t h e s t a t e m e n t b u t o n y o u r Page 91 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 v e r s i o n y o u k n e w t h a t n o s u c h s t a t e m e n t h a d b e e n – n o s u c h th in g h a d been done by the President. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C h a ir m a y b e I m u s t f ir s t a p o lo g i s e fo r s a y i n g y o u ’r e m a k i n g r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , y o u w e r e a s k in g a n d I w a s s a y i n g fr o m t h a t I e x tr a p o la t e d t h a t a c tu a l ly m a y b e i t’s s o m e t h i n g I o u g h t t o b e d o i n g , s o I d o a p o l o g is e f o r m i s r e p r e s e n ti n g the s u g g e s ti o n o r t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u w e r e m a k i n g b u t a s t o th e is s u e o f w h a t th e m e d ia w a s s a y in g C h a i r, I d o fu ll y c o n c u r t h a t , y o u k n o w, i t w a s w r o n g o f m e t o d o it i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e b u t w h a t a ls o g o t m e 10 e v e n m o r e c o n c e r n e d a n d w o r r ie d is t h a t e v e r y s in g le th in g t h a t I w a s – w a s in t h e n e w s p a p e r s w e r e m a t t e r s t h a t I w a s d is c u s s in g in a ( in d is ti n c t) f o r u m a n d i f is s u e s c o m i n g fr o m ( i n d is t in c t) s t a r t l e a k in g t o t h e m e d i a th e n t h e c o n f id e n c e y o u k n o w s t a r ts b e i n g r a is e d in t o q u e s t io n . T h e h i g h e s t s e c u r i ty c l u s t e r i n t h e c o u n tr y le a k s th i n g s i n le s s t h a n 2 4 h o u r s a f te r t h e m e e ti n g , y o u r e a li s e t h a t , n o m a t t e r w h a t y o u d o , o r w h a t e v e r y o u s a y, i t ’s g o in g t o f a ll o n t o d e a d w o o d b e c a u s e t h e m e r e f a c t t h a t i t l e a k e d i t w a s a d e l ib e r a te th in g t h a t s o m e b o d y fr o m w i th in t h a t c o m m i t t e e d e c i d e d t o l e a k th a t k i n d o f i n fo r m a t i o n b e c a u s e I’ v e n e v e r s a i d i t in a p u b l ic f o r u m , i t w a s le a k e d w h e n i t w a s 20 a c t u a ll y w it h in t h e ( i n d is ti n c t) fr a m e . S o fo r m e t h e is s u e w a s , i f th e in s t i tu t io n s w h ic h y o u b e li e v e is t h e c u s t o d i a n o f s e c r e c y a n d a l l t h e n o r ms a n d v a lu e s t h a t c o m e w i t h t h a t, s t a r ts l e a k in g i n f o r m a ti o n , i t m a k e s y o u w o n d e r w h e t h e r y o u c a n a c t u a l ly, y o u k n o w, w in o r s u c c e e d if y o u e v e n g o m a k e a n e ff o r t t o g o t a lk to t h e m e d ia a n d t h a t th e y c o u l d h a v e a c c u s e d m e o f tr y in g to d e a l w it h th e i s s u e o f t h e Page 92 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 in v e s t i g a t io n t h r o u g h th e p u b l ic d o m a in i n t h e m e d i a . S o th e r e w e r e a ll t h o s e is s u e s th a t I h a d t o ta k e i n t o c o n s id e r a ti o n , I’ m n o t s a y i n g I’ m ju s t i fy i n g o r I w a s r ig h t i n s o d e c i d i n g b u t I’ m e x p la i n i n g t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h I t o o k a d e c is i o n t o j u s t k e e p q u i e t a n d n o t t a lk t o a n y b o d y, d e fi n i t e l y n o t t h e m e d i a . CHAIRPERSON: Now I heard of the – I heard of you giving evidence in t h e C o m m is s i o n , y o u h a d t h e o p p o r tu n it y o f g o in g t h r o u g h r e le v a n t d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s , to r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r i e s , i s th a t correct? 10 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s s o m e C h a ir, I d id b u t I’ m n o t a l e g a l b r a i n s o I ’v e a ls o b e e n s tr u g g li n g t o c o m p r e h e n d s o m e , b u t I d i d id e n ti fy t h e o n e s I t h o u g h t m i g h t b e r e l e v a n t , s o I d id n ’t g o t h r o u g h a ll o f t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t a f te r a l l t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n t h a t y o u w o u l d b e a s k e d o n e th a t is v e r y p r o m i n e n t w o u ld b e w h e t h e r y o u h a d m a d e t h o s e s t a te m e n ts s u g g e s t in g t h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d th e t w o M i n i s t e r s h a d p l a y e d a r o le in r e g a r d t o t h e l a n d in g o f t h e a i r c r a ft . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: 20 C h a ir w h e n I w a s t a lk i n g t o m y l e g a l c o u n s e l b e fo r e I r e a d a n y d o c u m e n t , I ju s t s a i d t o th e m , w e ll I b e li e v e th a t th e r e a r e t h e t h i n g s th a t th e C o m m is s i o n w a n t s t o e s t a b li s h b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n i n te r n a l d is c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s th a t to o k p la c e o n t h is m a t te r s o a ll I w a s d o i n g w a s s p e c u la ti n g a b o u t w h a t e ls e w il l t h e C o m m i s s i o n b e lo o k i n g f o r, o th e r th a n t h e is s u e s th a t w e r e d e a l t w i t h a lr e a d y b y t h e i n d e p e n d e n t d is c i p l in a r y c o m m i t t e e w h i c h w a s c h a ir e d Page 93 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 b y s o m e A d v o c a t e , I th in k fr o m a b a r s o m e w h e r e in P r e to r i a w h ic h d e a l t w i t h th a t . S o I d i d n ’ t f o c u s t o o m u c h o n t h a t , m a y b e i t w a s m y f a u l t , I w a s tr y in g t o s p e c u l a te w h a t e ls e w i ll b e s o m e th i n g t h a t t h e y ’r e l o o k i n g f o r. CHAIRPERSON: C a n I t a k e i t , fr o m w h a t y o u ’v e j u s t s a id t h a t y o u d i d id e n ti fy th e d o c u m e n t s r e la t in g t o t h e d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s th a t y o u w e n t t h r o u g h a s s o m e o f th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w o u ld b e i m p o r t a n t fo r y o u to go through? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: 10 N o C h a ir I d id n ’ t b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t th a t b e c a u s e th e C o m m i s s io n a ls o h a d a c c e s s t o t h a t a n d t h e y w i ll k n o w th a t , t h a t h a d ta k e n p l a c e I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g o v e r a n d a b o v e w h a t t r a n s p i r e d u r in g t h a t p r o c e s s t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n m i g h t h a v e u n c o v e r e d o r w a n te d t o r a is e w it h m e b e c a u s e I d i d n ’ t c o m e h e r e w i t h a p r e c o n c e i v e d i d e a o f th e q u e s t io n s th a t I ’l l b e g e tt i n g a n d w h a t th e e n v is a g e d o u t c o m e fr o m t h i s e x e r c is e w il l b e . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I t a k e it t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e s a i d y o u w a n t to b e a s r e a d y a s p o s s i b l e fo r a n y q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u m a y b e a s k e d a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n , is th a t n o t t h e p o s i ti o n ? 20 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. And I would have thought that the documents r e l a ti n g t o t h e d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g w o u l d h a v e b e e n h ig h o n t h e li s t o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u w o u ld n e e d to g o th r o u g h t o r e f r e s h y o u r m e m o r y i n t e r m s o f w h a t h a d t r a n s p i r e d t h e r e , w h a t d id y o u s a y t h e r e o r w h a t w a s f o u n d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w it h r e g a r d t o t h o s e c h a r g e s . Page 94 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: C h a ir I t h i n k I h a d t h e b e n e fi t t h a t m y le g a l c o u n s e l h a d l o o k e d a t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts , s o w h e n I m e t w i t h t h e m , t h e y d i d t a lk t o s o m e o f th o s e i s s u e s , s o I t h e n p u t p r i o r i ty i n t o r e a d in g d o c u m e n t s I h a d n o t s e e n b e fo r e s o t h a t, a t le a s t , I w i ll u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g . CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e o th e r d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u ta lk a b o u t , w o u l d t h a t h a v e b e e n th e r e p o r t o f t h e j u s ti c e c l u s t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n t e a m ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C o r r e c t C h a ir I w e n t t h r o u g h th e – b e c a u s e I’ d n e v e r r e c e i v e d it b e f o r e , b e i n g c o n ta c te d b y 10 t h e C o m m i s s io n , t h e r e p o r t o f th e J C P S c l u s t e r, s o I h a d t o g o th r o u g h t h a t a s w e ll . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w e n t t h r o u g h t h a t r e p o r t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I d i d C h a ir. Ye s a n d t h e r e p o r t o f t h e – th e r e p o r t a n d d o c u m e n ts r e l a ti n g t o t h e S A N D F B o a r d o f in q u ir y, d id y o u a ls o g o t h r o u g h t h o s e ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C h a ir t h o s e I g o t v e r y l a te a n d m y l e g a l c o u n s e l h a d lo o k e d a t t h e m s o w e j u s t h a d a d is c u s s i o n a r o u n d s o m e o f t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h a t i n t e r n a l in q u ir y o r B o a r d th a t w a s conducted in Defence yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s n o w w h e n y o u w e n t th r o u g h t h e ju s t ic e c l u s t e r in v e s t i g a t io n t e a m r e p o r t , o f c o u r s e y o u w o u ld h a v e c o m e a c r o s s t h a t p a r t o f t h e r e p o r t t o w h ic h M s N o r m a n d r e w y o u r a tt e n ti o n y e s t e r d a y w h e r e i t w a s s u g g e s t e d t h a t M r N ts h i s i h a d s a i d y o u s a id t o h i m t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t h a d a r o le t o p l a y i n t h i s – in r e g a r d to t h e is s u e o f th e r e q u e s t fo r c l e a r a n c e a n d th e l a n d i n g o f th e r e p o r t a n d th a t th e tw o Page 95 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 M i n is t e r s – t h a t M i n is t e r B e n M a r ti n s h a d b e e n in s t r u c t e d t o a s s is t a n d t h a t t h e M i n i s te r o f D e f e n c e h a d n o o b j e c ti o n . Yo u s a w t h a t p a r t a s y o u were preparing? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I d i d C h a ir. Ye s a n d a r e y o u s a y i n g w h e n y o u s a w th a t p a r t , y o u s t il l d i d n o t r e c a l l t h a t i n f a c t , y o u h a d in v o k e d t h e n a m e s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e t w o M i n is t e r s i n o r d e r t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n o ffi c i a l s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e to e i t h e r e x p e d i t e t h e p r o c e s s o r g r a n t t h e request? 10 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C h a ir I was not sure, I w a s w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r I d id o r I d id n ’ t b e c a u s e th e r e a r e c e r t a in t h i n g s , l ik e a n y s o c i e ty t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n c u lt u r a l o r s o c i a l p r a c t ic e s t h a t t e n d to d o m in a t e a n d w h e n y o u a r e t a lk i n g t o s o m e o f y o u r fr ie n d s y o u s p e a k d i ff e r e n t ly in t e r m s o f w h a t y o u s a y a n d h o w y o u s a y i t c o m p a r e d t o w h e n y o u ’r e t a l k i n g t o s o m e b o d y w h o ’s a t o ta l s tr a n g e r a n d l ik e I i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e I h a d n e v e r e v e r i n m y l i fe , m e t o r s e e n M r N ts h is i s o i t w a s t h e f ir s t t i m e t h a t I s p o k e t o h i m t e l e p h o n i c a ll y t h a t d a y w h e n I m a d e t h e e n q u ir y. S o i t w a s in m y h e a d l ik e , c o u l d y o u h a v e s a i d t h is t o s o m e o n e w h o ’s a t o ta l s tr a n g e r a n d t h a t’s w h y I w a s 20 n o t c e r ta i n C h a ir, w h e t h e r I a c t u a ll y s a id i t a n d t h a t ’s w h y I’ d r e q u e s t e d m y l e g a l c o u n s e l t h a t w e r e q u e s t t h e a u d io r e c o r d i n g s o t h a t w e ’ ll b e a b l e t o j a c k o u r m e m o r y. CHAIRPERSON: A n d d id i t n o t o c c u r t o y o u t h a t i n th e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g o n e o f th e a ll e g a t io n s h a d b e e n t h a t y o u h a d i n v o k e d t h e s e n a m e s to tr y a n d p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e o ff ic i a ls o f t h e D e fe n c e Page 96 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 Department and did it not occur to you, to go back to that d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d s a y, l e t m e s e e w h a t I s a i d o r w h a t w a s s a id h e r e ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Well I might have just b r o w s e d t h r o u g h s o m e o f th e s e b u t l ik e I w a s s a y in g , C h a ir, I th o u g h t t h r o u g h t h e q u e s t i o n s e c t io n I m i g h t r e m e m b e r s o m e o f th e th in g s b u t I t h i n k my p r in c i p l e f o c u s w a s a t t e n d i n g m o r e t o n e w d o c u m e n ts th a t I’ d n e v e r e v e r c o m e a c r o s s b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t i t w o u ld b e e x t r e m e ly p r e j u d ic ia l i f – to m y s e l f i f I d i d n o t r e a d t h e fi le s , t h e t h ic k fi l e o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t I’ d n e v e r e v e r c o m e a c r o s s i n my li f e a n d f o c u s m y 10 a tt e n ti o n m o r e o n th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t , a t l e a s t h a d c r o s s e d m y d e s k before. S o i t c o u ld h a v e b e e n a m i s c a l c u l a ti o n o n m y s id e b u t I j u s t d i d n ’ t w a n t t o c o m e to y o u a n d t h e C o m m is s i o n i n fr o n t o f y o u C h a ir and the Commission and not have had a chance of even at least having a g la n c e a t s o m e o f th e d o c u m e n ts in q u e s ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d id n ’t t h i n k i t w o u l d b e p r e j u d ic ia l t o n o t g o t h r o u g h t h e d o c u m e n ts r e la t in g to , f o r e x a m p le , t h e d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r in g , s e e w h a t w a s s a id th e r e a n d w h a t y o u s a i d , y o u d i d n ’ t t h i n k i t w o u ld b e p r e j u d ic ia l f o r y o u n o t t o d o t h a t a n d th e n g iv e a n a n s w e r t h a t might turn out not to be what you had said? 20 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: C h a ir, a g a i n , I j u s t w a n t t o in d i c a t e t h a t w h e n w e m a d e m y o p e n i n g r e m a r k s y e s te r d a y I d id in d i c a t e t h a t w e w a n t e d t o g i v e f u ll c o o p e r a ti o n t o t h i s C o m m i s s io n a n d I fu r t h e r i n d ic a t e d that u n fo r t u n a t e l y we r e c e iv e d the bulk of d o c u m e n t a ti o n v e r y l a t e a n d C h a ir i f y o u lo o k a t a l l t h e f il e s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n g iv e n y o u r s e l f , t h a t h a v e a ls o b e e n g iv e n a n d I ’v e o n ly h a d a Page 97 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 f e w d a y s , li t e r a l ly to l o o k a t – I c o u l d h a v e c r e a t e – a p p e a le d fo r a t le a s t j u s t i fic a ti o n t h r o u g h m y l e g a l c o u n s e l to h a v e t h is s e s s i o n e x t e n d e d b y a n o th e r w h a t e v e r, it c o u l d h a v e to a l lo w m e t o g o o v e r t h e d o c u m e n ts a c c u r a t e l y, b u t b e c a u s e I a ls o h a d t h e b e n e fi t o f th e l e g a l c o u n s e l I a g r e e d to c o o p e r a te a n d f o r s o m e b o d y w h o s e n o t a le g a l b r a i n , h a v i n g t o g o th r o u g h a ll o f th e s e d o c u m e n ts I c a n a s s u r e y o u C h a ir, a n d y o u k n o w i t y o u r s e l f i t’s a m a m m o t h t a s k a n d in th e n u m b e r o f d a y s t h a t I ’v e s p e n t h e r e b e c a u s e W e d n e s d a y a n d T h u r s d a y I s p e n t m y d a y s r i g h t i n s i d e t h e s e s s io n li s t e n i n g t o th e s e s s i o n , s o e ff e c tiv e ly 10 I o n ly h a d a Fr i d a y a n d p a r t o f S a tu r d a y w i t h my l e g a l c o u n s e l t o e n g a g e o n t h e s e is s u e s b u t s t ill I h a v e s a i d t o m y l e g a l c o u n s e l a n d t h e y h a v e a ls o w i s e ly a d v is e d m e t h a t th e y d o n o t b e li e v e t h a t i t ’s w is e f o r m e t o w a n t to a p p e a l fo r a n e x te n s i o n s o t h a t w e c a n – fo r whatever reason and despite the shortcoming. So that we had id e n t i fi e d a n d t h a t’s w h y w e c a m e f o r – a n d I ’ m tr y i n g t o e x p l a i n th a t C h a ir b e c a u s e i f y o u lo o k a t t h e f il e s a n d t h e n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts I’ v e h a d t o g o t h r o u g h I t h i n k e v e n p e o p l e w h o a r e s t u d e n ts s t u d y i n g , i f y o u g iv e t h e m a ll o f th e s e d o c u m e n ts a n d w a n t th e m t o p a s s a n e x a m p le in t h e s a m e p e r i o d o f ti e t h a t I ’v e b e e n , i t w i ll r e a l ly b e v e r y u n fa ir o n 20 them. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I j u s t w a n t t o e m p h a s is e a g a in I ’ m a s k i n g y o u a l l o f t h e s e q u e s t io n s b e c a u s e i t ’s i m p o r ta n t f o r m e t o u n d e r s ta n d v a r io u s p e r s p e c tiv e s , w h a t ’s p o s s i b le , w h a t c o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d , w h a t c o u l d h a v e m a d e y o u g i v e c e r t a i n a n s w e r s a n d s o o n . S o t o b e fa ir to y o u b u t to b e f a i r t o w h o e v e r m ig h t b e t h i n k in g o f s o m e t h in g d i ff e r e n t o r Page 98 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 a d i ffe r e n t in t e r p r e ta t io n to y o u r s . S o I – o n e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t w a s s a i d b y Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r N ts h is i in t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n i n t h e r e c o r d i n g t h a t w e li s te n e d t o – o n e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t y o u s a i d to h i m , a s I r e c a l l , is t h a t th is c a s e w a s a u n i q u e c a s e , y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I d o C h a ir. Ye s w h y – w h a t w a s u n iq u e a b o u t th is c a s e ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I th in k I tr i e d t o r e s p o n d t o t h a t q u e s t io n e a r li e r C h a ir, b u t I ’l l … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s y o u d id b u t I j u s t t o … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: A n d C h a ir, w h a t I w a s s a y in g w a s f o r m e t h e r e w a s a q u e s t io n in m y h e a d o f s a y i n g i s t h is ju s t s h e e r c o in c i d e n c e o r is th e r e a c o r r e l a ti o n b e c a u s e n o t t o o l o n g , i n F e b r u a r y t h e y h a d – w e h a d b e e n c a l l e d t o a m e e ti n g w h e r e in t h e G u p t a s in d i c a t e d t h e y w a n te d to la n d i n O R Ta m b o , w h e r e , i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f th e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t , C E O o f A C S A a n d m y s e l f w h e r e w e a d v is e d a g a in s t i t a n d t h e y i n d ic a te d in t h a t m e e ti n g i t ’s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o b e h a v in g a w e d d i n g r e c e p t io n a n d a g a i n w h e n th e a p p lic a ti o n fr o m t h e H ig h C o m m is s i o n e r o f I n d ia w a s s e n t to – d i r e c te d t o D e f e n c e , t h e y d id n o t h i d e t h a t t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly g o in g t o b e 20 h o s ti n g t h e s e p e o p le f o r a w e d d in g r e c e p t io n b u t t h a t t h e y h a d M i n is t e r s o n b o a r d w h o w e r e c o m i n g . S o f o r m e – t h a t’s w h y I t h o u g h t t h e r e ’s f a r to o m u c h c o i n c i d e n c e h e r e a n d t h a t ’s w h y, e a r li e r, I a d m i t te d t h a t m a y b e I f a il e d i n m y d u t i e s b e c a u s e I s h o u l d h a v e a d v is e d s o m e b o d y s e n i o r i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d s a y, lo o k , w h ils t I’ m n o t s a y in g g r a n t o r n o t g r a n t b u t t h is is m y o b s e r v a ti o n a n d a t le a s t s h a r e t h a t Page 99 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 in f o r m a ti o n w i th t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t y o u m a y h a v e s a i d th is is a u n iq u e c a s e t o s u g g e s t t h a t w h a t e v e r m a y b e – t h e y h a v e b e e n h i s u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e t h e r in t h is ty p e o f s i t u a t io n y o u s h o u l d g r a n t o r r e fu s e , t h is is a case w h ic h he needed to tr e a t w i th s p e c ia l c o n s i d e r a ti o n s , is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t w a s m e a n t b y u n i q u e c a s e correct? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: I’ ll s a y t o a c e r t a i n d e g r e e y e s it is c o r r e c t b e c a u s e l ik e I s a id e a r l ie r C h a i r t h a t I a ls o w a n t e d , n o t 10 o n ly f o r h i m t o p r o c e s s b u t a l s o I w a s h o p i n g t h a t i t w i ll b e a s u c c e s s fu l p r o c e s s in g o f t h a t a p p li c a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I w a s g o i n g t o g o t o th a t a s p e c t o f h o p i n g , it m a y b e t h a t w h e n I r e v ie w a l l t h e e v i d e n c e a t s o m e s t a g e , l o o k a t y o u r e v i d e n c e , lo o k a t th e e v i d e n c e o f M a j o r N ts h is i , l o o k a t w h a t w a s r e c o r d e d a n d lis t e n to i t a g a i n a n d l o o k a t th e e v i d e n c e o f o th e r w i t n e s s e s , i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t I h a v e t o a s k m y s e l f t h e q u e s t io n , w h e t h e r y o u r c a s e i s a c a s e w h e r e w h e n y o u s a id y e s t e r d a y in r e g a r d t o c e r t a in s t a t e m e n t s t h a t y o u c o u l d n o l o n g e r r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u m a d e t h e m o r n o t , w h e t h e r t h i s w a s a c a s e w h e r e y o u g e n u i n e ly c o u l d 20 not remember or did not remember or whether it was a case of s o m e b o d y w h o w a s h o p i n g t h a t t h e r e w o u ld b e n o t h i n g t h a t c o u ld c o n tr a d ic t h i m a n d i f th e r e w a s n o th in g , t h a t ’s h o w i t w o u l d s t a y b u t o n c e h e s a w o r h e h a d th e r e c o r d in g s h e t h e n r e a li s e d t h a t t h is c o u l d n o t w o r k . S o I m a y h a v e t o lo o k a t w h ic h o n e o f th e t w o t h e p o s i ti o n i s , y o u u n d e r s ta n d ? Page 100 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I d o u n d e r s t a n d . Ye s a n d I ’ m ju s t m e n ti o n i n g t h a t , p a r t o f w h y I ’ m a s k in g t h e s e q u e s ti o n s i s to tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t I h a v e y o u r f u ll p e r s p e c t iv e , y o u r s id e o f t h e s t o r y a n d w i t h r e g a r d to s a y i n g , t h i s i s a u n i q u e c a s e I g e t th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t i t w a s m o r e th e r e s u l t t h a t y o u w e r e lo o k i n g a t , a f a v o u r a b le r e s u l t b u t y o u h a v e e m p h a s is e d a n u m b e r o f t i m e s t h a t y o u r fo c u s w a s o n t h e p r o c e s s b u t y o u h a v e s a id , t h e r e w a s h o p e t h e r e s u l t w o u l d b e a p o s i t iv e o n e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: 10 CHAIRPERSON: Correct. Yo u u n d e r s ta n d a n d t h a t ’s w h e r e y o u s t a n d ? A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d e x a c tl y w h a t t h e C h a i r i s s a y i n g a n d I a l s o h o p e t h a t t h e C h a ir w il l ta k e i n to a c c o u n t t h e t i m in g o f w h e n m y s e lf a n d m y l e g a l c o u n s e l w e r e p r o v i d e d w i t h a l l t h e d o c u m e n t s w e h a d to g o th r o u g h a n d l o o k a t t h e b u lk i n e s s o f t h a t to a l s o a p p r e c ia t e th a t , f o r s o m e b o d y lik e my s e l f w h o ’s n o t a le g a l b r a i n , I w a n t t o r e p e a t , g o i n g t h r o u g h a ll o f t h e s e f il e s p l u s t h e t h r e e th a t a r e h e r e a n d a l l o f th is , i t ’s a d i ff ic u l ty a n d t h a t I d i d C h a ir w a n t t o a p p e a r b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s io n s o t h a t – b e c a u s e w h e n t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n v it e d m e , t h e fir s t o n e le t t e r w a s j u s t b a s i c a ll y s a y in g I 20 m u s t c o m e a n d li s t e n t o t h e t e s t i m o n y o f Ms Sindane so that I can e x e r c is e m y r i g h t t o q u e s t i o n h e r o r c r o s s - q u e s t io n o r c r o s s - e x a m i n e o f c o u r s e f o ll o w i n g th e p r o c e d u r e a s w a s e x p la in e d to m e b y l e g a l c o u n s e l t h a t h a d t o b e f o l lo w e d to r e q u e s t s u c h a n d a l l o f t h a t a n d t h a t’s w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d I w a s s u p p o s e to c o m e a n d d o a n d th e n t w o d a y s b e fo r e fl y i n g i n I g o t a n o t h e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s a y in g t h a t I h a v e t o c o m e t o – Page 101 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t w o o r th r e e d a y s I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r, t h a t I a c t u a l ly h a v e t o c o m e a n d t e s ti fy b u t i t a ll h a p p e n e d w i t h i n – t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w a s a ll w i th i n a w e e k o f e a c h o t h e r a n d I k n o w th a t m y l e g a l c o u n s e l a ls o w r o t e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o tr y a n d c la r i fy w h a t – I d o n ’t k n o w is i t r u le 3 0 3 o r w h a t e v e r t h e c a s e m a y b e , w h a t i t m e a n s a n d th e r e f e r e n c e s a n d – s o t h e r e w a s t h a t t o a n d fr o i n te r ms o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n . So the actual p r o c e s s o f s t a r ti n g to r e a l ly p r e p a r e f o r c o m i n g d o w n , h a p p e n e d , fo r m e C h a ir, e ffe c tiv e ly o n Tu e s d a y – n o o n M o n d a y a ft e r n o o n w h e n I g o t a n e m a i l s a y i n g , c a y y o u c o n f ir m w h ic h a ir p o r t y o u fly fr o m , fr o m w h e r e 10 y o u s t a y t o J o h a n n e s b u r g d o y o u n e e d tr a n s p o r t t o p i c k y o u u p , t h a t w a s o n M o n d a y, I r e s p o n d e d in t h e a f te r n o o n , I g o t a ti c k e t s a y i n g , t o m o r r o w y o u ’r e f ly i n g in . S o I w a s f ly i n g i n o n Tu e s d a y, a r r iv e h e r e Tu e s d a y e v e n in g , W e d n e s d a y a n d T h u r s d a y I w a s s i t ti n g h e r e i n t h is v e r y s a m e r o o m l is te n in g t o th e o t h e r t e s ti m o n ie s . S o a ll o f th a t a ls o t o o k a w a y t h e ti m e I c o u l d h a v e u t il is e d t o g o t h r o u g h s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n m y s e l f b u t I ju s t t h o u g h t I m u s t p u t t h a t o n r e c o r d a s w e ll s o th a t t h e C h a i r w i ll b e a w a r e t h a t , w h il s t I ’ m n o t in a n y w a y in s i n u a ti n g t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n is n o t f a i r, b u t I’ m ju s t r a i s i n g i s s u e s w h ic h w e r e w o r r i s o m e i s s u e s fo r m e w h e n I c o n s i d e r e d e v e r y t h in g e l s e 20 a n d – w h ic h a l m o s t p r o m o te d m e t o p u r s u e d m y l e g a l c o u n s e l to c o n s i d e r r e q u e s t i n g a p o s t p o n e m e n t b u t i n h i n d s ig h t I a l s o t h o u g h t t h a t t h e n a ti o n a l d u ty a n d s o m e o f t h e i m p o r t a n t c o n f e r e n c e s t h a t is g o i n g o n , s t a r ti n g fr o m t o m o r r o w, e ff e c ti v e ly, w h e r e – w h ic h a r e v e r y c r i ti c a l f o r t h e w o r k w e d o , a ls o in s e c u r i ty c o u n c i l e tc e t e r a , I t h o u g h t, y o u k n o w, w e w o u l d n o t a ls o w a n t t o c o m e w i t h a n u n r e a s o n a b l e r e q u e s t t o Page 102 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 t h e C h a ir a n d s a y w e w a n t a m o n t h o r t w o m o n t h e x t e n s i o n b e c a u s e t h a t w i ll a p p e a r a s t h o u g h w e ’r e r u n n in g a w a y f r o m s e e i n g t h e C o m m i s s i o n c o n d u c t i t ’s b u s i n e s s p r o p e r ly a n d e ffi c i e n t ly a n d f in is h i n g a s a n d w h e n t h e y w o u l d l ik e t o . S o t h a t ’s w h y w e a g r e e d a n d a g a i n I m u s t a d m i t , m y l e g a l c o u n s e l a ls o w is e l y a d v is e d m e t h a t i t m a y b e to m y b e s t i n t e r e s t , n o r t o t h e ir b e s t i n te r e s t e i t h e r, t h a t ’s w h y w e ’r e h e r e b u t w e j u s t t h a n k t h e C h a ir fo r g iv in g u s a l l th e r e c o r d i n g s – f o r a u t h o r i s i n g t o g e t t h e r e c o r d i n g s b e c a u s e t h e y h e lp e d , t h e y w e r e v e r y h e l p f u l. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Norman. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: C h a ir I a p o l o g is e … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . A n y t h i n g a r is in g ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir ju s t t o p u t – b e c a u s e I t h i n k it ’s o n ly f a ir t o p la c e t h is b e fo r e t h e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h e s e a r e n o te s th a t r e la t e t o a m e e t in g t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e h a d w it h t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s fo r th e C o m m i s s i o n a t th e H a i g o n t h e 2 9 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 9 . I ’ m j u s t t h i n k in g , t h e r e ’s t h r e e m a t t e r s w h ic h h e m ig h t w a n t – w h ic h a r e m a t t e r s th a t a r e in t h e p u b li c 20 d o m a i n w h i c h h e m ig h t w a n t to c o m m e n t o n , y o u k n o w, w i t h y o u r l e a v e C h a ir, I b e g l e a v e t o j u s t – i t w il l – i t s h o u ld n ’ t ta k e m o r e t h a n fi v e m i n u t e s t o d o th a t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u , A m b a s s a d o r is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h s o m e o f t h e in v e s t ig a to r s fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n Page 103 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 on the 29th of May 2019 at the Haig? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s i t is . Ye s a n d y o u r c o u n s e l h a s c o n f ir m e d t h a t a c o p y o f t h e n o t e s t h a t t h e te a m m a d e fr o m t h a t m e e t in g w a s m a d e a v a i la b le t o y o u ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C o r r e c t. T h a n k y o u , I b e g l e a v e C h a ir t o h a n d u p t h e n o t e s a n d I a s k th a t th e y ’r e m a r k e d E x h i b i t F F 1 4 . I ju s t w a n t t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n ti o n – th a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: T h e d o c u m e n t a p p e a r in g t o b e n o t e s m a d e w h e n c e r t a i n in v e s t i g a t o r s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n , w h ic h l o o k s l ik e M r ( in d i s ti n c t) a n d Mr L i o n e l G r o e n e w a l d i n t e r v i e w e d A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e o n th e 2 9 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 9 , t h a t d o c u m e n t w i ll b e m a r k e d a s Ex h ib i t F F 1 4 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A s t h e C h a ir p l e a s e s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. A m b a s s a d o r b e c a u s e th e s e a r e m a t t e r s th a t a r e o u t t h e r e i n t h e p u b li c d o m a i n a n d I t h i n k i t’s fa ir t h a t y o u m u s t c o m m e n t , y o u h a d c o m m e n t e d t o t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s a n d g a v e t h e m y o u r v e r s i o n o n th o s e a l le g a ti o n s that were put. I ’d lik e to d ir e c t y o u r a t t e n t io n to p a g e 1 4 p a r a g r a p h 5 4 … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o t h e s a m e Ex h ib i t? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S a m e – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , y e s C h a ir E x h i b i t F F1 4 a n d t h e n th e p a g e C h a ir is p a g e 1 4 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir, a n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 5 4 , y o u a n s w e r e d a q u e s t i o n t h e r e C h a ir – A m b a s s a d o r w h e r e y o u a s k e Page 104 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 a b o u t a l le g a ti o n s w h ic h w e r e i n t h e p r e s s r e l a ti n g to n e g o t i a t i n g b u s i n e s s d e a ls o n b e h a l f o f th e G u p t a s a n d K P G G r e e n h o u s e s w h il s t y o u w e r e s til l o c c u p y i n g t h a t p o s i ti o n a s t h e A m b a s s a d o r i n th e N e t h e r l a n d s , c o u l d y o u ju s t b r ie f ly t e ll th e C h a ir w h a t y o u r r e s p o n s e w a s t o t h a t q u e s t io n ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s C h a ir, I w a s a s k e d th e q u e s t io n a n d I c o n f ir m e d t h a t, in d e e d o n e o f t h e G u p ta a s s o c ia t e s o r G u p t a r e la t e d c o m p a n ie s w r o t e to m e o r to – o n m y c a p a c i ty a s A m b a s s a d o r a n d a s k e d i f I k n e w o f a c o m p a n y c a l le d K P G G r e e n h o u s e s 10 b e c a u s e t h e y ’ r e i n te r e s t e d to h a v e a m e e ti n g a n d c a n I a s s is t t h e m i n s e t ti n g u p a m e e ti n g a n d t h e y ’ ll s e n d m e t h e i n fo r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e company because I didn’t know the company and one of the duties of A m b a s s a d o r s C h a ir i s t h a t w e s e r v i c e a ll S o u th A fr ic a n c i ti z e n s ir r e s p e c t iv e o f r a c e , g e n d e r, c o l o u r, r e li g i o n o r c r e e d o r a n y p a r t ic u l a r a ffi li a ti o n . S o s i n c e th e G u p t a s h a d t h e n , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t s t a tu s h a s c h a n g e d n o w, t h e y w e r e a ls o b o n e fi d e S o u th A fr ic a n s , I h a d a r e s p o n s ib il i ty n o t t o d is c r i m i n a te b u t t o a s k my t e a m t o a s s is t i n s e t ti n g u p t h a t m e e t i n g fo r t h e m a n d t h a t m e e ti n g w a s a r r a n g e d f o r them 20 and they went to meet with the p a r tic u l a r company and s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t, b e c a u s e a g r i c u l tu r e i s o n e o f o u r k e y s e c t o r s t h a t w e ’r e f o c u s i n g o n i n t h e N e t h e r l a n d s , I’v e a l s o a r r a n g e d m e e t in g s f o r o th e r p e o p l e to g o t o th e s a m e c o m p a n y s o th e r e w a s n o e x c l u s iv i ty a ffo r d e d t o th e m . W h e n t h e – I d id n o t g o w i t h t h e G u p t a s fo r t h a t m e e ti n g – t o th e G u p ta ( i n d is ti n c t) t o t h a t m e e ti n g b u t w h e n th e , th e n M E C f o r Ec o n o m i c D e v e l o p m e n t in E a s t e r n C a p e M E C S o m y o c a m e t o Page 105 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 v is it th e Netherlands to g e th e r with the CEO of Eastern Cape D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n a n d s o m e o t h e r m e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d , a n d t h e y to l d u s t h e y ’r e a l s o i n t e r e s te d in t h e a g r ic u lt u r a l s p a c e w e a ls o a r r a n g e d m e e t i n g s fo r th e m a n d a ls o w e n t w i th t h e m t o t h a t m e e t in g a n d w e s u b s e q u e n t ly f a c i li t a te d t h a t , t h a t s a m e c o m p a n y c o m e a n d v is it t h e m i n t h e E a s t e r n C a p e i n ( i n d i s ti n c t) a n d t h e y e v e n – M E C S o m y o a s s is t e d t h e m t o id e n t i fy p o t e n ti a l r a w m a t e r i a l s u p p li e r s t h a t t h e y ’l l r e q u ir e i n t h e p r o c e s s e s b u t t h e r e ’s a l s o o t h e r c o m p a n i e s , I t h i n k a b o u t fi v e o r s i x c o m p a n i e s t h a t w e h a v e a c t u a lly li n k e d w i t h th e m b e c a u s e 10 A g r i b u s i n e s s a n d H y d r o p o n i c s is o n e o f t h e c e n tr e s w e w e r e i n te r e s t e d in . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u a n d th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 6 0 y o u w e r e a ls o a s k e d a b o u t t h e c o a l a s s e t a t M p is i n e a r E m p a n g e n i . C o u ld y o u j u s t e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir w h a t th a t w a s a l l a b o u t ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C h a ir t h a t w a s n o t h in g e l s e b u t ju s t a n in tr o d u c ti o n , t h e r e is a g e n tl e m a n – I c o m e fr o m N o r t h e r n Natal I know my surname, Koloane could be deceiving and people may t h i n k I’ m fr o m L i m p o p o b u t I’ m n o t a n d h a v in g g r o w n u p in K Z N I k n o w a l o t o f p e o p le t h e r e a n d s o m e o f t h e m h a p p e n t o b e i n th e b u s i n e s s 20 s p a c e a n d o n e o f th e g u y s w h o k n e w m e t o ld m e t h a t h e h a s a c o a l a s s e t a n d t h a t h e h a s d o n e a lo t o f g e o lo g i c a l r e p o r t a n d s u r v e y o r g e o lo g i c a l s u r v e y a n d h e ’s n o w lo o k in g f o r p o t e n ti a l i n v e s t o r s a n d h e h a d s e e n m e t a lk i n g t o o n e o f th e G u p ta m e m b e r s w h e n w e w e r e h a v i n g t h e S t a t e o f t h e N a t i o n A d d r e s s b a n q u e t d in n e r a n d h e a s k e d i f I c o u ld in tr o d u c e h i m to h i m o r in tr o d u c e h i m t o th e m s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d Page 106 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 c o n s i d e r w h e t h e r th e y w o u l d i n v e s t w i t h h i m i n th e b u s i n e s s o r n o t a n d t h a t ’s e x a c tl y w h a t I d i d , j u s t i n tr o d u c t io n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n a g a in y o u w e r e a s k e d a b o u t a ll e g a t i o n s o f a r r a n g i n g f o r p r iv a te a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r t w o fr i e n d s a t t h e G u p ta ’s lu x u r y C li ff t o p L o d g e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: C o r r e c t , I d i d th e r e i s – I w a s – I’v e b e e n p r iv i l e g e d C h a ir to s e r v e g o v e r n m e n t i n d i ffe r e n t c a p a c i t ie s i n m y y o u n g l i fe , o n e o f t h e m w a s t h a t I w a s w o r k in g in J a p a n a s t h e M in is t e r f o r E c o n o m ic C o o p e r a t i o n b a s i c a lly c h a r g e w it h 10 p r o m o ti n g tr a d e a n d in v e s t m e n t m a r k e t e x c e s s is s u e s e tc e te r a i n J a p a n a n d w h e n I w a s t h e r e I i n t e r a c te d w i t h a l o t o f p e o p l e o f c o u r s e a ls o in t h e s a m e s p a c e a n d t h e r e w a s a l a d y a n d h e r p a r t n e r w h o w e r e a ls o t h e r e a t th e ti m e d o in g th e ir - I t h i n k i t ’s p a r t o f th e ir M B A E x c h a n g e P r o g r a m m e t h a t w e w e r e w o r k in g w it h . So we became very good fr i e n d s a n d o n e d a y – a n d w e h a v e b e e n i n to u c h , e v e r s i n c e w i t h t h e m a n d w h e n s h e s e n t m e a n e m a il s a y i n g , n o w e ’r e lo o k in g a t g o i n g t o S o u th A f r i c a w e w a n t t o g o t o a s a f a r i a n d I r e m e m b e r e d t h a t , o h b y t h e w a y, t h e G u p t a s h a d a t s o m e s t a g e a t o n e o f t h e s e e v e n ts o ff e r e d t h e y t o l d m e t h a t t h e y ’ v e g o t o n e o f t h e b e s t lo d g e s a n d I s a i d t o th e m , w e ll 20 c a n y o u p le a s e w r i t e t o t h e s e p e o p l e a n d c o n s i d e r i f , y o u k n o w, y o u c o u l d g o t h e r e , a s k th e m w h a t a r e t h e p r ic e s a n d a l s o I s a i d t o t h e G u p t a s I ’ll b e h a p p y i f y o u g i v e t h e m a g o o d r a t e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d t h e n l a s tl y A m b a s s a d o r t h e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t y o u s o l ic i t e d g o l f s p o n s o r s h i p fr o m th e G u p t a s f o r y o u r w e d d i n g a n n iv e r s a r y. Page 107 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 A M B A S S A D O R V U S I B R U C E K O L O A N E: w e d d i n g a n n iv e r s a r y. N o i t ’s a li e t h a t it ’s o n m y Ev e r y y e a r, e x c e p t la s t y e a r, f o r t h e l a s t s a y, 1 0 / 11 y e a r s I’ v e b e e n d o i n g c h a r i ty g o l f t o u r n a m e n t i n m y s m a ll h o m e t o w n c a l l e d P ie t e r m a r i tz b u r g a n d a l l I d o i s , I w r i t e t o a l l t h e p e o p l e t h a t I k n o w h a v e g o t b u s i n e s s e s a n d I w r it e , n o t o n ly t o o n e , I w r i t e t o m a n y p e o p le t o s e e i f a n y b o d y w il l b e w il li n g t o p r o v id e a s p o n s o r s h i p , u n fo r t u n a t e ly th e y d i d n o t c o m e t o t h e p a r ty. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d t h e n j u s t l a s t ly, C h a ir, i f I m a y ju s t r e f e r th e A m b a s s a d o r to E x h i b i t F F 5 , t h e e m a il t h a t m a k e s 10 r e fe r e n c e to t h e w e d d i n g p a r ty, I w o u l d n ’ t w a n t a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e r e ’s a n a ll e g a t io n t h a t y o u m a d e n o r e fe r e n c e t o y o u r w e d d in g a n n iv e r s a r y, a t le a s t y o u c l a r i fi e d t h a t b e f o r e w e p a r t w a y s . I t ’s F F 5 , it ’s a n e m a il – s o r r y a t p a g e 2 5 2 , t h a n k y o u . Is t h a t – d o y o u r e c o g n is e t h a t e m a i l? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s I d o . O k a y a n d i t ’s d a t e d th e 2 9 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 , w h a t d o y o u s a y t h e r e t o As h u – it w a s A s h u Tj w a l a , is t h a t correct? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: 20 years s in c e I married my wife T h a t , “ t h is y e a r m a r k s 2 0 and ( i n d i s t i n c t) December in P i e t e r m a r i tz b u r g o n my c e le b r a ti o n ” . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a s p a r t o f? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Can I read again? Ye s , y e s s ir. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: “ A s p a r t o f m y c e le b r a ti o n s ” Page 108 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 I said. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s c o u l d y o u j u s t r e a d th e e n t ir e e m a il . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: “ T h i s i s b e s i d e s th e p a r t y I’ ll h a v e a t h o m e w i t h f a m i ly, I ’ m w r i ti n g t o y o u t o r e q u e s t y o u r s u p p o r t i n s p o n s o r i n g s o m e p r iz e s t h a t I c o u l d u s e d u r i n g t h e g o l f t o u r n a m e n t. S h o u l d y o u b e i n a p o s i ti o n to h e l p a n y i n d ic a ti o n o f t y p e o f p r iz e s y o u m i g h t b e a b le t o s p o n s o r, w il l h e l p i n t h e ( in d i s t i n c t) . I lo o k f o r w a r d to h e a r in g fr o m y o u ” . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : 10 Ye s s o th is t o u r n a m e n t w a s li n k e d t o your celebrations for your wedding? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: I could have said that b e c a u s e i t w a s c o in c i d i n g w i t h t h a t , b u t g e n e r a l I’ m ju s t s a y i n g I ’ m g o i n g t h i s g o l f t o u r n a m e n t f o r t h e l a s t 11 y e a r s o r e x c e p t f o r th e la s t t w o y e a r s , I th i n k la s t y e a r o r tw o w h e r e I ’v e b e e n d o in g t h e m e v e r y y e a r fo r a c h a r i ty b e n e f i ti n g s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o s t a y in w h a t y o u c a l l t h e d r o p c e n tr e w h e r e i t ’s – t h e r e ’s a p la c e i n m y t o w n s h i p w h e r e y o u ’v e g o t p e o p l e w h o a r e – o f t e n b e c a u s e o f H I V a n d a i d s a n d w h a t e v e r m o n e y w e r a is e fr o m t h e r e w e th e n g o a n d p a y th e s u p e r m a r k e t a n d th e b u tc h e r y t h a t t h e y s u p p ly t h e w i t h fo o d e v e r y w e e k 20 o r e v e r y s e c o n d w e e k , b e c a u s e i f w e g iv e p e o p l e t h e m o n e y, s o m e b o d y s a y s t h e y ’r e l o o k i n g a ft e r th e i n t e r e s t o f th e p e o p l e a n d t h e y u s e i t . S o it ’s – f o r m e i t ’s b e c a u s e I d o i t e v e r y y e a r, e x c e p t f o r t h e l a s t t w o y e a r s b e c a u s e th e s t a te o f t h e – th e w e i g h t o f t h e r a n d h a s b e e n v e r y weak. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s s o i t h a s n o t i n c o r r e c t th e r e fo r e t o Page 109 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 s a y it w a s l i n k e d t o y o u r w e d d in g a n n i v e r s a r y c e le b r a ti o n s ? AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W e l l y o u c a n s a y th a t . Ye s t h a n k y o u , th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: J u s t o n e l a s t t h i n g A m b a s s a d o r, i n t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n h a d w i th W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N t s h is i, a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s s h e s a i d i f D I R C O a p p r o v e s th e v is it t h e n y o u – I ’ m p u t t in g i t i n m y o w n w o r d s , y o u c a n g r a n t, y o u s h o u ld g r a n t c l e a r a n c e y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t p a r t in t h e r e c o r d in g ? 10 AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I d o C h a ir. Ye s I n o t e t h a t t h e r e s h e t a l k s a b o u t, i f D I R C O a p p r o v e s a n d m y m i n d g o e s b a c k t o t h a t e m a il fr o m y o u r PA s a y i n g A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e h a s te l e p h o n ic a l ly a p p r o v e d . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Chair again, I may just want t o r e i te r a t e t h a t p r o t o c o l d o e s n o t a p p r o v e v i s i ts t h a t a r e i n c o m i n g o r o u t g o i n g b e c a u s e t h a t is t h e p r in c i p l e d o m a in o f li n e f u n c ti o n s o t h e a p p r o v a l w i ll n o t c o m e fr o m p r o to c o l b u t w il l c o m e fr o m th e r e l e v a n t M i n is t e r, i f t h e r e ’s a M i n is t e r w h o w a n t t o v i s i t , o f a g r i c u l tu r e fr o m a n o t h e r c o u n t r y t h e n o u r M i n is t e r o f A g r i c u l t u r e w i ll h a v e to c o n s e n t o n 20 t h e d a t e s a n d t h e n w e c o m m u n ic a t e th a t i n fo r m a t i o n to t h e E m b a s s y a n d o n c e th e y c o n fir m t h e t i m in g o f a r r i v a l e tc e te r a , t h e c o m m e r c i a l a ir li n e , w e f a c il i ta t e p r o t o c o l o ffic e r s t o a s s is t a t t h e – t h r o u g h th e p r o t o c o l l o u n g e a t O R Ta m b o o r i f i t ’s Wa t e r k l o o f a g a in , w e a c tiv a t e a c c o r d i n g l y b u t t h e a c t u a l a p p r o v a l – a n d I c a n o n l y s a y fo r m e i t’s a m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e i n te r n a l w o r k i n g s o f h o w D I R C O o p e r a t e s b u t Page 110 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 d e f in i te ly t h e a p p r o v a l d o e s n o t c o m e fr o m p r o t o c o l b e c a u s e w e d o n o t d e a l w it h th e s u b s ta n ti v e is s u e s a n d w e t h e r e f o r e c a n ’t s a y, y e s c o m e , w h e n w e d o n ’t d e a l w i th t h o s e k i n d o f i s s u e s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t I th in k y o u m a y h a v e s a id in y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r l ie r t h a t th e r e w o u ld b e o th e r s e c ti o n s o f D I R C O w h ic h is s u p p o s e d to approve. AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: Ye s C h a ir, t h o s e s e c t i o n s is w h a t I r e f e r r e d t o a s th e v a r io u s b r a n c h e s w e h a v e i n D I R C O a b r a n c h t h a t d e a ls w i t h A fr ic a a n d t h e n w e r u n t h e d e a l s w i t h A s i a a n d th e 10 M i d d l e E a s t o n b i la t e r a l s . another dealing A n o t h e r o n e d e a li n g w it h E u r o p e a n d t h e n w i th A m e r ic a , b e s i d e s m u l til a t e r a l i s s u e s . the one t h a t d e a ls w i th S o i f a v i s i t o r i s c o m i n g fr o m L a ti n A m e r ic a th e D D G w h o h e a d s t h e b r a n c h A m e r ic a , a n d L a t in A m e r ic a w il l b e t h e o n e w h o w i ll t h e n b e u l t i m a te ly r e s p o n s i b l e f o r r e c e iv i n g o r s e n d i n g t h a t n o t e v e r b a l e w h i c h c o n fi r ms t h a t b u t i t d o e s n ’ t c o m e fr o m p r o to c o l a n d t h e y d o n ’ t s e n d i t t h r o u g h p r o t o c o l e i th e r, t h e y c o m m u n ic a t e d ir e c tl y w i t h th e E m b a s s y ’s a n d th e o n ly t i m e w e g e t in v o lv e d , t h e r e f o r e is w h e n w e h a v e t o i m p le m e n t t h e a c t u a l l o g i s t ic a l a r r a n g e m e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: 20 No thank you very much. Thank you very much A m b a s s a d o r f o r c o m in g to g i v e e v id e n c e , y o u a r e n o w e x c u s e d . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir w i ll I b e a l lo w e d a l s o C h a ir to – s e e in g th a t t h e r e i s a lr e a d y a p r e c e d e n t s e t w i ll I a l s o b e a l lo w e d t o f ly o u t t o n i g h t b a c k t o m y m is s i o n i n th e N e t h e r l a n d s a n d o f c o u r s e a v a il m y s e l f f o r a n y f u t u r e i n q u ir i e s b e t h e y in a n e m a il fo r m o r o t h e r w is e ? Page 111 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 CHAIRPERSON: N o t h a n k y o u , y o u m a y fl y o u t t h is e v e n in g i f th e r e ’s a n y th in g th e C o m m i s s io n w il l b e i n t o u c h w i t h y o u a n d a s y o u i n d ic a te y o u w il l c o o p e r a t e . AMBASSADOR VUSI BRUCE KOLOANE: CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h a t w i ll b e t h e la s t w i t n e s s fo r t h e d a y b u t C h a ir w e a r e n o t c lo s i n g Wa t e r k l o o f a n d w e w il l in d i c a t e to t h e C h a ir, m a y b e in c h a m b e r a s to w h a t e l s e n e e d s t o b e done. 10 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I d i d in d ic a t e t h a t I’ d l ik e M a jo r N ts h is i t o b e recalled. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir t h e r e ’s j u s t a s li g h t c o m p l ic a ti o n w h ic h w e ’l l e x p la i n t o y o u in c h a m b e r s . CHAIRPERSON: N o th a t ’s fi n e i t mi g h t n o t b e – i t m i g h t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly b e t o m o r r o w b u t I t h i n k I w o u l d li k e t o h a v e h i m r e c a ll e d t o t h e w i t n e s s s ta n d s o t h a t h e c a n c l a r i fy c e r t a i n a s p e c ts o f h i s e v id e n c e b u t I a ls o w a n t t o k n o w w h a t is th e p o s i ti o n w i th C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n ? ADV TH A N D I NORMAN SC: C h a ir we were a d v is e d by the in v e s t i g a t o r s t h a t C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n is – n o w l iv e s in B o t s w a n a a n d s h e 20 w a s r e p r e s e n t e d b y – a t s o m e p o i n t b y G r ie s e l A t t o r n e y s a n d th e n , I t h i n k a c o u p l e o f w e e k s a g o , t h o s e a tt o r n e y s in d ic a t e d to t h e C o m m i s s i o n th a t i f y o u w a n t t o m a k e c o n t a c t w i t h h e r w e m u s t d o s o d ir e c t ly a n d t h e n a le t t e r w a s w r i t t e n t o t h e m a s k i n g a b o u t t h e ir m a n d a t e a n d w h e t h e r t h e ir m a n d a te h a s t e r m in a t e d . f o ll o w e d u p o n th a t C h a i r b u t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . Page 112 of 114 I have not 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h y w a s a le t t e r a s k in g – s e n t a s k i n g w h e th e r t h e ir m a n d a t e h a d t e r m i n a t e d w h e n t h e y s a i d w r i t e d ir e c tly t o h e r ? A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t w a s t h e v e r y r e a s o n C h a ir b e c a u s e y o u c a n ’ t r e p r e s e n t s o m e o n e a n d th e n l a te r o n y o u s a y to th e C o m m i s s i o n , w e ’l l d ir e c t t h e s e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o h e r i t ’s e it h e r t h e y act or they don’t. CHAIRPERSON: I f th e y w o n ’ t a c c e p t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e r e la t in g t o h e r it m e a n s th a t th e y g i v e p e r m is s i o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o C h a ir b u t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . 10 CHAIRPERSON: G o d ir e c t ly. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h e y h a d m e e t in g s w i t h t h e C o m m i s s io n w h ic h d e a l t w i t h t h e is s u e s t h a t r e la t e d t o C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t w h a t I ’ m s a y i n g i s , i f t h e y r e p r e s e n t e d h e r a n d t h e y s a y f r o m n o w o n w r i t e d ir e c t ly to h e r, t h e y a r e s a y in g w e h a v e n o f u r th e r c o m m u n ic a t i o n w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e c o m m u n ic a ti n g w it h y o u o n h e r b e h a l f b u t a n y w a y w h e r e is t h e p r o c e s s o f e s t a b lis h in g w h e t h e r s h e c a n c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir fr o m w h a t t h e y h a d i n d ic a te d to t h e C o m m i s s i o n a t t h e t i m e w h e n t h e y s a i d th e y w e r e r e p r e s e n ti n g h e r t h e y 20 s a i d s h e w a s n o t p r e p a r e d t o c o m e b u t t h e n w e n e e d t o fo ll o w u p o n w h a t I – b e c a u s e w e ’v e b e e n e n g a g e d w i t h t h e h e a r in g s w e h a v e n o t f o ll o w e d u p t o s e e h o w f a r th a t p r o c e s s i s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y i f t h a t – ja i f th a t c o u l d b e f o ll o w e d u p t h a t w o u ld b e i m p o r ta n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. Page 113 of 114 09 JULY 2019 – DAY 129 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y n o t th a t ’s a lr ig h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Th a t ’s w h e r e w e e n d fo r t o d a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t o m o r r o w i t ’s e v i d e n c e r e la t in g t o I t h i n k , i s i t Tr a n s n e t? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I t h in k m y c o ll e a g u e S e l l o is l e a d in g evidence tomorrow yes. CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y a lr i g h t, w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s n o w a n d to m o r r o w w e ’ ll s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’c lo c k , w e a d jo u r n . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 0 J U LY 2 0 1 9 Page 114 of 114