C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 9 M AY 2 0 1 9

D AY 9 1

20

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
P R O C E E D I N G S O N 9 M AY 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r M o k o e n a , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : G o o d m o r n i n g M r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d . Mr C h a i r t h e
n e x t w i t n e s s t h a t w e w i ll b e c a ll in g is M r P e t e r Vo l m i n k f r o m Tr a n s n e t .
I n o r d e r to m e a n i n g f u l ly c a n v a s s t h e i s s u e s a r is in g fr o m h is te s ti m o n y
C h a ir w e w i ll b e r e f e r r in g t o f o u r a r c h l e v e r f il e s a n d a s u p p l e m e n t a r y
s t a te m e n t w h i c h is c o n t a i n e d i n a s e p a r a t e fo l d e r. Yo u w i ll s e e C h a ir
10

t h a t w e h a v e ta k e n th e l ib e r ty o f m a r k i n g t h o s e fi le s a s E x h i b i t B B 2 . 1 A
t h a t w ill b e t h e fir s t f il e a n d t h e s e c o n d fi le is E x h i b i t B B 2 . 1 B a n d t h e
t h ir d fil e i s m a r k e d E x h i b i t B B 2 . 1 C , t h e f o u r t h fi le it is m a r k e d Ex h ib i t
B B 2 . 1 D . T h e r e m u s t b e a s e p a r a te f o l d e r C h a ir i t is a s u p p l e m e n ta r y
w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t c o n t a i n e d in a s e p a r a t e b l u e fo l d e r. Th a t w il l b e t h e
s u p p l e m e n t a r y w it n e s s s ta t e m e n t o f M r Vo l mi n k . I n h is s u p p l e m e n t a r y
s t a te m e n t a ll t h a t h e d o e s is t o c o r r e c t s o m e o f t h e e r r o r s t h a t h e
p ic k e d u p in h i s o r ig i n a l s ta t e m e n t a n d h e i s a ls o i n c l u d i n g a f e w
a n n e x u r e s w h ic h h e i n a d v e r t e n tly o m i t te d i n th e fi r s t w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t .
I t d o e s n o t c h a n g e a n y c o m p le x i o n o f a n y o t h e r c o n t e n ts o f t h e

20

s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Thank you.

T h o s e fi le s o r l e v e r a r c h fi l e s t h a t y o u

h a v e i n d ic a t e d w il l b e m a r k e d Ex h ib i ts B B 2 . 1 A , B B 2 . 1 B , B B 2 . 1 C ,
B B 2 . 1 D r e s p e c t iv e l y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And then the…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n t h e s e p a r a te f il e w il l b e m a r k e d Ex h ib i t B B ?

Page 2 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 2.2
CHAIRPERSON : 2.2.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir th e e v id e n c e o f M r Vo l m in k s e t t h e
s c e n e fo r t h e e v i d e n c e w h ic h w i ll b e l e d i n t h is s tr e a m w h e n w e a r e
f o c u s s in g o u r a t te n ti o n o n th e is s u e s r e le v a n t t o Tr a n s n e t .

H e w i ll

e d u c a t e u s a b o u t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s t r u c t u r e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s w it h in
Tr a n s n e t.
10

H e w il l a l s o a s s is t u s t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e d e l e g a ti o n s o f

a u t h o r i ty a n d t h e r o l e o f a u n i t c a ll e d g o v e r n a n c e fu n c t io n w h ic h i s
c r i ti c a l in t h e s u p p ly c h a in m a n a g e m e n t o f Tr a n s n e t.

H e w il l t h e n

c o m m e n t o f s p e c if ic tr a n s a c ti o n s w h ic h m ig h t h a v e b e e n e lu d e d t o b y
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d a l s o b y M r Pr e t o r i u s d u r i n g h is o p e n i n g . H e w il l
g iv e f l e s h t o t h o s e s p e c i f ic t r a n s a c t io n a n d c o m m e n t o n t h o s e
tr a n s a c ti o n s . E v e n t h o u g h C h a ir h is e v i d e n c e w il l b e m a i n l y f o c u s s in g
o n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s tr u c t u r e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s i t is s o f u n d a m e n ta l
b e c a u s e i t d o v e t a il s w i t h th e e v id e n c e o f o t h e r w i tn e s s e s w h o a r e g o i n g
t o b e c a ll e d t o t e s ti f y o n t h e s p e c if ic tr a n s a c ti o n s .

I t w il l b e a t t h a t

p o i n t w h e n w e n o w u n d e r s t a n d t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f h is e v id e n c e a n d t o
20

a p p r e c ia t e h o w th e p r e s c r i p t s p e r t a i n i n g to p r o c u r e m e n t w e r e e i th e r
u n d e r m i n e d , a b u s e d o r n o t a t te n d e d t o Mr C h a ir. M r C h a ir in a s f a r a s
t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr Vo l m i n k i m p lic a t e s p e r s o n s w e h a v e c o m p l ie d w it h
t h e R u le 3 .3 . N o ti c e s . W e h a v e M r – w e h a v e A d v o c a te Br o w n S C a n d
M r N g u b a n e w h o a r e in a t t e n d a n c e o n b e h a l f o f o n e o f th e i m p lic a t e d
p a r t y M r Ta u M o r w e .

M a y b e I s h o u l d a ff o r d th e m a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o

Page 3 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p l a c e th e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV BROWN:

Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n I c o n f ir m m y a p p e a r a n c e .

S o r r y. I c o n f ir m – y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : It be recorded.
A D V B R O W N : I c o n fir m m y a p p e a r a n c e o n a w a t c h i n g b r i e f
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V B R O W N : O n b e h a l f o f M r Ta u M o r w e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV BROWN:

I a m t o g e t h e r w it h m y l e a r n e d j u n i o r M r S a n d i l e

Ngubane.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV BROWN:

W e a p o l o g is e fo r n o t c o m in g t o m e e t y o u – g r e e t y o u

t h is m o r n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V B R O W N : W e d i d n o t q u i t e u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th e p r o t o c o ls w e r e b u t
we are here.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th a t is f in e .
A D V B R O W N : S i m p ly t o w a tc h .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e . T h a n k y o u .
A D V B R O W N : T h a n k y o u S ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a ir w e a r e t h e n r e a d y t o l e a d t h e
e v i d e n c e o f Mr P e t e r Vo l m i n k . M a y t h e w i t n e s s b e s w o r n i n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : P e te r S t e p h e n Vo l m in k .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r th a t t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll g iv e w ill b e
10

t h e t r u t h ; th e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e tr u t h ; i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e
y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o h e lp m e G o d .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Mr …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M o k o e n e I ju s t m e n t i o n t h a t l a s t n i g h t I l o o k e d f o r
t h e s t a t e m e n t o f t h e n e x t w i t n e s s a n d I d id n o t s e e m t o h a v e it . I d o
n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d b u t w e c a n c o n t in u e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

20

Ye s C h a i r I w a s a s s u r e d t h a t i t w a s

d e li v e r e d to y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

There were ready as three days ago

a lr e a d y t h e ir s t a t e m e n t s w e r e r e a d y.
CHAIRPERSON :

J a w e ll I d o n o t k n o w if t h e y w e r e p u t w h e r e m y

a tt e n ti o n w a s n o t d r a w n t o b u t I l o o k e d w h e r e t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to b e

Page 5 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
a n d th e y w e r e n o t t h e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : They were not there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I j u s t h a d to la s t w e e k s ’ o n e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r Vo l m i n k fo r t h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r

e v i d e n c e y o u m i g h t h a v e h e a r d w h e n I t o o k t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h e
d i ff e r e n t v o l u m e s t h a t w e w i ll b e d e a l in g w i t h i n o r d e r to m e a n i n g fu ll y
a d d r e s s th e is s u e s fr o m y o u r w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t .
10

b e f o r e y o u y o u a r e h a v in g fo u r fi le s .

Yo u w il l s e e t h a t

They should be marked as

in d i c a t e d t o th e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e y a r e s t il l b e s id e h i m a n d n o t b e fo r e h i m s o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N e x t to h i m .
CHAIRPERSON : So somebody must put them…
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W i t h i n a r ms r e a c h .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll h e b e a b l e t o id e n ti fy t h e m o r s h o u ld s o m e b o d y
a s s is t h i m ?
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ar e y o u a b le t o i d e n t if y th e m – a r e y o u
c o m f o r t a b l e to p u t t h e m t h e r e o r d o y o u w a n t m e t o p u t th e m o n t h e
t a b le ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h e r e m u s t b e o n e o n t h e t a b l e a t l e a s t t h a t h e
w i ll b e u s in g i m m e d i a t e ly.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s C h a i r I h a v e a l l f o u r fil e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W i t h i n a r ms ’ r e a c h .
CHAIRPERSON : And you understand how they are marked.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : I understand.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o w h e n w e s a y B B 1 A y o u w il l k n o w w h ic h o n e to

take?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I w ill C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y t h a n k y o u .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d s e p a r a t e fr o m t h o s e fo u r f il e s

y o u w il l h a v e a ls o y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y w i t n e s s s ta t e m e n t c o n t a i n e d in
t h e fo l d e r.

It is also marked you know Exhibit BB2.2 do you have it

with you?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M a y I th e n r e q u e s t y o u t o u p li f t

fr o m t h a t v o l u m e if y o u c a n p u t n e x t to y o u E x h ib i t B B 2 . 1 A .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u w il l s e e i f y o u o p e n th a t f il e th e fir s t
d o c u m e n t t h e r e i t w i ll b e c o v e r p a g e .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d a f t e r t h e c o v e r p a g e i t w il l b e a n

in d e x .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h a t i n d e x w il l a s s is t b o t h m e a n d

y o u t o n a v i g a t e th r o u g h t h e r e le v a n t e x h i b i t .

Page 7 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON:

H a n g o n M r M o k o e n a t h e r e is j u s t to o m u c h a c t iv i ty

t h a t i s h a p p e n i n g h e r e i t i s d is tr a c ti n g m e . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u w i ll s e e th a t t h e r e is t h a t i n d e x t h a t
I h a v e r e fe r r e d y o u to a n d i m m e d i a t e l y a f te r t h e i n d e x th e r e is a
document there.

C o u l d y o u p l e a s e id e n ti fy t h a t d o c u m e n t f o r th e

C h a ir ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir t h e d o c u m e n t is A n n e x u r e P V 1
w h ic h i s a s ig n e d c o p y o f my s t a t e m e n t t o t h e c o m m i s s io n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . M a y I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 6 7 o f th e
10

v e r y s a m e d o c u m e n t? W il l t h a t b e y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t C h a ir t h a t is m y s ig n a tu r e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d d o y o u c o n fi r m t h a t th e c o n t e n t s o f
y o u r s t a t e m e n t a r e b o t h tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I c o n fi r m .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D o y o u a l s o c o n fir m t h a t y o u r s t a te m e n t
it is i n th e fo r m o f a n a ff id a v i t? I t is b e i n g d e p o s e d t o ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir i t i s in t h e f o r m o f a s t a t e m e n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O h i t is a s t a te m e n t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d o e s n o t lo o k li k e it is a n a ffi d a v it .

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t is n o t a n a ff i d a v i t i t is a s ta t e m e n t

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t Mr Vo l m i n k t h a t
y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d b y t h e c o m m is s i o n t o c o m m e n t o n th e p r o c u r e m e n t
s tr u c t u r e s o f Tr a n s n e t , w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t ?

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And also to educate us through the

relevant procurement procedures?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u w i l l a ls o b e t e s ti fy i n g o n t h e r o le o f
G o v e r n a n c e w i t h i n th e s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t o f Tr a n s n e t?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d i n a d d i ti o n y o u w il l a ls o d e a l w i t h

t h e s p e c if ic tr a n s a c ti o n w h i c h y o u h a v e i d e n ti f ie d fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 o f
10

y o u r w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n t?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

J u s t f o r c o m p l e t e n e s s c a n y o u p le a s e

r e a d t h o s e s p e c i fic tr a n s a c ti o n s i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

T h e r e a r e f iv e t r a n s a c t io n s C h a ir.

T h e y a r e f ir s t ly t h e N e o t e l N e t w o r k S e r v ic e s c o n tr a c t.

S e c o n d ly t h e

c o n fi n e m e n t o f t h e C C T V u p g r a d e t o N e o t e l r e fe r r e d t o a s C C T V 1 .
T h ir d ly th e a w a r d o f t h e I T D a t a S e r v i c e s c o n tr a c t to T - Sy s t e m s .
F o u r t h ly t h e c o n fi n e m e n t o f t h e 1 0 0 l o c o m o t iv e s tr a n s a c ti o n t o C h i n a
S o u th R a i l a b b r e v i a te d a s C S R a n d t h e c o n fi n e m e n t o f v a r i o u s t e n d e r s
20

t o Mc K i n s e y C o n s u l ti n g t h e y a r e r e f e r r e d t o s i m p ly a s t h e M c K i n s e y
c o n tr a c ts .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Now before we canvas your

e v i d e n c e i n a n y d e t a i ls c o u l d y o u p l e a s e t e l l u s y o u r q u a li fi c a t io n s ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a ir I h o l d t h e – t h e d e g r e e s a r e

BALLB and LLM.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d b e f o r e y o u j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t w h a t d i d
you do?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B e fo r e I j o in e d Tr a n s n e t I – I w a s a
D e p u ty D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n i n t h e A s s e t F o r fe i tu r e U n i t a n d
la t e r I b e c a m e th e R e g i o n a l – o n e o f th e R e g io n a l H e a d s o f t h e As s e t
F o r fe i tu r e U n i t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d w h e n d i d y o u jo i n Tr a n s n e t ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

I jo i n e d Tr a n s n e t i n 2 0 0 7 o r i g i n a ll y

a s G e n e r a l M a n a g e r f o r L e g a l S e r v ic e s .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC: Now could you please share with us your
e m p l o y m e n t h is t o r y w i t h in Tr a n s n e t i ts e lf ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

C h a ir a s I h a v e i n d ic a te d I s t a r te d

o u t a s th e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r o f L e g a l S e r v ic e s b a s e d a t t h e c o r p o r a t e
c e n tr e i n J o h a n n e s b u r g .

A f te r a w h i le I d e v e l o p e d q u it e a s tr o n g

in t e r e s t i n p r o c u r e m e n t l a w s p e c i f ic a l ly a n d th a t t h e n l e d m e t o j o i n t h e
s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t u n i t fir s t ly a s a le g a l s p e c i a lis t i n th e a r e a o f
p r o c u r e m e n t l a w a n d s e c o n d l y a s e x e c u tiv e m a n a g e r G o v e r n a n c e a n d I
s t il l h o l d th a t p o s i ti o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

N o w i n y o u r c u r r e n t p o s i t io n w h a t a r e

y o u r r e s p o n s i b il i ti e s a n d f u n c t i o n s ?
CHAIRPERSON :

J u s t b e fo r e t h a t M r Vo l mi n k y o u s a id y o u r c u r r e n t

p o s i ti o n i s e x e c u ti v e m a n a g e r G o v e r n a n c e , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : E x e c u tiv e M a n a g e r G o v e r n a n c e ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Governance yes.

Page 10 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d y o u r f u n c ti o n s i n th a t c a p a c i ty ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e r e a r e b r o a d l y fo u r f u n c ti o n s , fo u r
a r e a s th a t t h e G o v e r n a n c e f u n c t i o n h a s t o a d d r e s s .

I a m r e q u ir e d t o

m a n a g e o f c o u r s e t h e f u n c ti o n o v e r a l l . T h e f o u r f u n c ti o n s t h a t I h a v e
r e fe r r e d to a r e b a s ic a l ly p o l ic ie s a n d p r o c e d u r e s , s e c o n d ly p r o v i d i n g
tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v ic e , t h ir d ly tr a i n in g a n d d e v e lo p m e n t a n d fo u r t h ly
c o m p li a n c e a n d m o n i to r i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d w e w il l d e a l w i t h t h e m in m u c h
10

m o r e fu ll d e t a i ls i n d u e c o u r s e . N o w i n o r d e r f o r u s t o a p p r e c i a te y o u
k n o w t h e s tr u c t u r e s o f p r o c u r e m e n t s tr u c t u r e s w i t h i n Tr a n s n e t y o u h a v e
a ls o p r e p a r e d a p r e s e n t a ti o n , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir t h a t p r e s e n t a ti o n i s c o n t a in e d f o r
y o u r r e f e r e n c e fr o m t h e s a m e e x h i b i t t h a t y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h it s t a r ts
fr o m p a g e 9 5 .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r Vo l m in k y o u w i ll s e e t h e d o c u m e n t

t h a t I h a v e r e f e r r e d t h e C h a ir t o a s p a g e 9 5 c o u l d y o u p l e a s e s i m p l y
20

id e n t i fy i t f o r t h e r e c o r d ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

C h a ir t h is is a p r e s e n t a ti o n d e a l in g

w i t h t h e e v o l u t i o n o f Tr a n s n e t ’s p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w c o u l d y o u p le a s e tu r n to s li d e
n u m b e r 1 . C h a ir f o r th e p u r p o s e s i t w o u ld b e o n p a g e 9 7 .
CHAIRPERSON : What page number?

Page 11 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 97.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u c a n ta k e u s a ls o t h r o u g h th e – t h a t
s li d e n u m b e r 1 .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a i r th is d e a l s w i t h t h e c o n t e n ts o f
t h e p r e s e n ta t io n a n d i t i n d ic a t e s t h a t I w i ll b e a d d r e s s i n g t h e
R e g u l a t o r y Fr a m e w o r k a p p li c a b l e t o s u p p l y c h a in .

Secondly what are

t h e k e y g o v e r n a n c e c h e c k p o i n ts i n th e s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t
p r o c e s s w i t h in Tr a n s n e t ? T h ir d ly t h e s tr u c t u r e o f w h a t is r e fe r r e d t o a s
10

t h e P P M w h i c h i s a n a b b r e v ia t io n f o r Pr o c u r e m e n t Pr o c e d u r e s M a n u a l .
T h e n e x t p o i n t w il l d e a l w i th Tr a n s n e t ’s e v a l u a t i o n m e t h o d o l o g y fr o m
2 0 1 2 t o p r e s e n t . T h e n e x t b u l le t p o in t r e l a t e s t o c u r r e n t r e m e d ia l p l a n s
t h a t a r e u n d e r w a y.

Th e n t h e r e is a b u l le t p o i n t d e a li n g

with

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s fo r p r o c e s s c o n tr o l i m p r o v e m e n t s a n d f in a l ly t h e r e i s
a l is t o f v a r io u s a c r o n y m s a n d a b b r e v ia ti o n s t h a t a p p e a r i n t h e
p r e s e n t a ti o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . C a n y o u t h e n tu r n to s li d e n u m b e r
3 i t is o n p a g e 9 9 C h a ir ?

A n d i f y o u m a y M r Vo l m i n k t h e n t a k e u s

t h r o u g h w h a t is o n s li d e n u m b e r 3 ?
20

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

W h a t th is s l i d e

d e p ic ts i s a p y r a m i d w h i c h s h o w s th e v a r io u s r e g u la t o r y r e q u ir e m e n ts .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . C a n I r e q u e s t t h a t s l i d e n u m b e r 3
b e s h o w n ? Ye s p r o c e e d .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

I t s h o w s a p y r a m i d C h a ir o f t h e

v a r io u s r e g u l a to r y r e q u ir e m e n t s w h ic h i m p a c ts s u p p ly c h a i n a n d t h e s e

Page 12 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
a r e a l l t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts w h ic h Tr a n s n e t a s a s t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n y a n d
a s a n o r g a n o f s ta t e n e e d s t o a d h e r e t o .

R ig h t a t t h e a p e x o f t h e

p y r a m i d is S e c t io n 2 1 7 o f c o u r s e o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I m e n t i o n S e c ti o n 2 1 7 b u t o f c o u r s e
t h a t is n o t t h e o n l y p r o v i s i o n in th e c o n s t i tu t io n w h i c h i m p a c ts
p r o c u r e m e n t S e c ti o n 3 3 d e a li n g w i th j u s t a d m in is tr a tiv e a c t io n . S e c t i o n
195

d e a l in g

w i th

th e

broad

v a lu e s

w h ic h

are

to

animate

th e

a d m i n is tr a t i o n t h a t is a ls o o f c o u r s e c o v e r e d .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e n t h e n e x t la y e r C h a ir d e a ls w i t h
t h e v a r i o u s p i e c e s o f p r i m a r y l e g is la t io n w h ic h i m p a c ts s u p p ly c h a i n a s
w e ll .
A c t,

M o s t n o t a b ly o f c o u r s e t h e P F M A P u b l ic Fi n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t
the

Pr e fe r e n ti a l

Procurement

P o l ic y

Fr a m e w o r k

P r o m o t io n o f A d m i n i s t r a t iv e J u s tic e Ac t , PAYA a n d

Ac t ,

PA J A

various other

p r i m a r y p i e c e s o f le g is l a ti o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d a ll o f t h e m t h e y a r e c e n tr a l in t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t p o li c i e s o f Tr a n s n e t a n d th e y m u s t b e a d h e r e d to , a m I
correct?
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

T h e n e x t l a y e r th e n d e p ic ts v a r io u s

p i e c e s o f s e c o n d a r y l e g is l a t i o n .

T h e r e a r e v a r io u s n a t io n a l tr e a s u r y

r e g u la t io n s w h i c h m u s t b e a d h e r e d to .
s t a n d a r d s f o r u n i f o r m i ty.

Va r io u s P P P FA r e g u l a ti o n s ,

Va r io u s n a ti o n a l t r e a s u r y i n s tr u c t io n s w h i c h

Page 13 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
h a v e b e e n is s u e d a n d a ll o f t h e s e m u s t b e a d h e r e d t o . T h e n e x t l a y e r
t h e n d e p ic ts v a r io u s p o l ic ie s a n d g u i d e l in e s w h i c h a r e is s u e d b y
v a r io u s g o v e r n m e n t e n t i ti e s fr o m ti m e t o t i m e .

M o s t n o ta b l y t h e

n a t io n a l tr e a s u r y ’s o w n i m p l e m e n t a ti o n g u i d e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR

PETER

STEPHEN

VOLMINK :

development

programme

issued

E n t e r p r is e s .

T h e b l a c k i n d u s t r i a l is t ’s p o l ic y, n e w g r o w t h p a t h a n d

by

Th e
the

c o m p e t i tiv e
Department

supplier
of

P u b li c

v a r io u s o th e r p i e c e s o f le g is l a ti o n w h i c h m u s t b e t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t .
10

T h e n t h e l a y e r a t t h e b o t t o m r e fl e c t s Tr a n s n e t ’s o w n i n te r n a l p o l ic ie s
a n d p r o c e d u r e s b e c a u s e a ll o f th e s e r u l e s h a v e t o b e c a p tu r e d C h a ir i n
a s e t o f p o l ic ie s a n d p r o c e d u r e s w h ic h a r e i m p le m e n t a b l e a n d c a n b e
a p p li e d o n a d a y t o d a y b a s is i n o u r v a r i o u s tr a n s a c ti o n s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w w h e n w e i n te r r o g a te s p e c i fi c

tr a n s a c ti o n s la t e r o n d e fi n i t e l y o n e w o u l d w a n t to s e e w h e t h e r in th e
p r o c u r e m e n t o f s e r v i c e s a n d g o o d s w h e t h e r t h i s p y r a m i d th a t y o u a r e
s e t ti n g o u t h e r e w h e t h e r t h o s e l e v e ls o f p r e s c r i p ts w e r e a d h e r e d t o o r
not.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w c a n y o u p l e a s e t u r n t o s l id e 5
because …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir b e fo r e w e t u r n t o s l i d e 5 c o u l d
I j u s t m e n ti o n o n e o th e r t h i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O n t h i s s li d e a n d i t is a b o u t w h a t t h is

Page 14 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
fr a m e w o r k s e e k s to a c h i e v e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d C h a ir w h a t – w h a t t h e fr a m e w o r k
s e e k s t o a c h i e v e is t o g iv e e ffe c t t o a c o n s ti t u ti o n a l v is i o n a s t o h o w
p r o c u r e m e n t w a s – is s u p p o s e d t o b e d o n e in t h is c o u n tr y. A n d s t a r ti n g
fr o m S e c ti o n 2 1 7 I th in k t h a t t h e r e a r e t w o c r i tic a l p r i n c ip l e s in 2 1 7
w h ic h I t h i n k I j u s t n e e d to m e n ti o n i f y o u w o u ld p e r m i t m e ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , y e s p r o c e e d .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e fir s t r e l a t e s to f a ir tr e a t m e n t a n d
10

c o s t e ffe c tiv e n e s s a n d o th e r r e l a t e d p r in c ip le s . A n d th e s e c o n d d e a ls
w i t h p r e fe r e n c in g a n d o t h e r m e a s u r e s d e s ig n e d to p r o m o t e h i s to r ic a l ly
d is a d v a n t a g e d

i n d iv i d u a l s .

And

those

two

p r in c i p l e s

are

q u it e

f u n d a m e n t a l b e c a u s e my r e a d in g o f t h e p r o v i s i o n i s t h a t th e r e is n o
c o n tr a d ic ti o n i n th e c o n s ti t u ti o n b e t w e e n a s y s t e m t h a t r e s p e c ts th e
r u l e o f l a w, th a t p r o m o t e s f a ir tr e a t m e n t o f b id d e r s a n d i n t e g r it y in t h e
p r o c e s s o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d a s y s te m t h a t is d e s i g n e d t o p r o m o t e
s o c ia l a n d e c o n o m i c i n c l u s i o n o n th e o th e r. O f c o u r s e th e o t h e r p o i n ts
t h a t a r e m e n t i o n e d t h e r e i s a l s o q u i te i m p o r t a n t t h e y – t h e fr a m e w o r k
r e q u ir e s u s t o d r iv e g r e a t e r fis c a l d is c i p li n e , t o p r o m o t e le g a l i ty a n d t o
20

a p p ly o b je c tiv i ty a n d u n i fo r m i ty i n o u r d e c i s i o n m a k in g .

I thought I

s h o u l d p e r h a p s ju s t m e n t io n s o m e o f t h o s e i t e m s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
s li d e n u m b e r 4 .

Ye s t h a t i s k e y.

Now we can turn to

I n s li d e n u m b e r 4 M r Vo l mi n k e v e n t h o u g h y o u h a v e

id e n t i fi e d t h o s e r e l e v a n t p i e c e s o f le g is l a ti o n o n s li d e n u m b e r 3 y o u
t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e k e y c h a l le n g e s .

Can you please take us through

Page 15 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
them?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir w h a t I …
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m s o r r y.

I am sorry Mr Mokoena.

I am sorry Mr

Vo l m i n k . T h e o n e w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h w a s t h a t s li d e n u m b e r 3 ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 3 y e s n o w w e a r e g o i n g t o s li d e n u m b e r
4 w h i c h is o n p a g e 1 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O h d id y o u d o 1 A n d 2 o r n o t r e a l ly ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e r e is – t h e y a r e t h e r e . 1 a n d 2 ?
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: The…
C H A I R P E R S O N : S l id e s 1 a n d 2 is i t …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e – t h e – t h e y d e p i c t n o t h in g o f

s ig n if ic a n c e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F o r in s t a n c e …
CHAIRPERSON : So …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f y o u g o t o s l id e n u m b e r 2 y o u w il l j u s t
fi n d a b e a u ti f u l tr a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Carrying nothing.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th a t is f in e . I t h i n k t h e p r o b l e m w a s I w a s tr y i n g
t o s e e w h e t h e r o n m y p a g e s th e r e is a r e f e r e n c e t o s l id e n u m b e r 3 o f 2
s o i t i s – is s l id e n u m b e r 4 t h e o n e i m m e d i a te ly a f t e r t h e o n e w e h a v e
ju s t d e a l t w it h ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir. W h a t w e w i ll d o a ls o d u r in g

Page 16 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h e a d j o u r n m e n t w e w il l tr y t o a t l e a s t n o t o n ly r e ly o n t h e n u m b e r s a s
p e r p a g i n a t io n b u t a l s o t o i n d ic a te t h e s li d e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b e c a u s e …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t t h e s l i d e n u m b e r h a s

b e e n – ju s t b e e n w r it t e n o v e r b y t h e y o u k n o w t h e p a g i n a t e d n u m b e r
t h e r e . T h e r e is a n u m b e r b u t y o u w i ll n o t s e e i t , i t is in r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h ja a n d it d o e s n o t s a y i t i s [ i n d is ti n c t ] .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t d o e s n o t – e x a c t ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t w h a t w e w i l l d o w e w i ll j u s t m a k e

s u r e th a t w e d e p i c t t h e m c o r r e c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a t h a t w il l h e l p w i t h t h e r e f e r e n c e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d th a t w e c a n b e a b le t o tr a c e th e m
yes.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja.

O k a y s o s li d e n u m b e r 4 – w e a r e n o t a t s li d e

number 4?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S l id e n u m b e r 4 C h a ir
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : At 100?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s e x a c t ly – o n p a g e 1 0 0 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

As I m e n t i o n e d t h e s l i d e n u m b e r I w il l

a ls o c a r r y w i th m e a n d m e n ti o n t h e r e l e v a n t p a g e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , ja t h a t w i ll h e l p j a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: So..
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .

Page 17 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : So you were just about to deal with the
k e y c h a l l e n g e s a s y o u id e n ti fi e d t h e m fr o m s li d e n u m b e r 4 .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t i t i s
t h e s a m e p y r a m i d th a t is d is p l a y e d o n s l i d e 4 b u t i t fo c u s s e s n o w o n
s o m e o f t h e k e y c h a ll e n g e s w h ic h th e r e g u la t o r y fr a m e w o r k p o s e s a n d I
m e n ti o n a f e w i n t h e – i n t h e b lo c k o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s i d e . C h a ir t h e
fir s t c h a ll e n g e i s t h a t o f f r a g m e n ta t io n .

That there is not one single

p i e c e o f l e g is la t io n g o v e r n in g p r o c u r e m e n t i n S o u t h A fr ic a . T h e r e i s a
r e p o r t w h ic h I th i n k Tr e a s u r y b r o u g h t o u t i n 2 0 1 5 th a t id e n ti f ie d a t l e a s t
10

8 0 p i e c e s o f l e g is la t io n g o v e r n i n g p r o c u r e m e n t .

S o I t h i n k t h e f ir s t

d i ff ic u l ty is t h a t o n e h a s t o tr a w l th r o u g h v a r i o u s p ie c e s o f le g i s l a ti o n
t o g e t a c o m p r e h e n s iv e p ic t u r e a n d a p r o p e r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t th e
r e g u la t o r y r e q u i r e m e n ts a r e m e a n t to b e . T h e s e c o n d c h a l l e n g e – s o r r y
b e f o r e I m o v e o n t o th e s e c o n d c h a ll e n g e C h a ir I th in k th a t th e r e h a s
b e e n m e n t i o n m a d e o f a p r o c u r e m e n t b il l w h ic h is to b e p a s s e d a n d i t i s
m e a n t t o s o m e h o w s y n c h r o n is e a n d u n i fy t h e p r o c u r e m e n t r e g i m e b u t I
t h i n k i t w a s fir s t m e n ti o n e d in 2 0 1 5 b u t th e r e is n o s ig h t o f t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t b il l a s y e t.

Th e s e c o n d c h a l le n g e C h a ir r e la t e s t o – to

m is a l i g n m e n t p a r t ic u l a r ly b e t w e e n p o li c e e x p e c ta t io n s a n d w h a t t h e
20

le g i s l a ti o n r e q u ir e s . S o I h a v e i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e r e a r e v a r io u s p o l ic ie s
w h ic h s h o u ld r e q u ir e u s t o t a k e m e a s u r e s to a d v a n c e h is t o r ic a ll y
d is a d v a n t a g e d i n d iv i d u a ls a n d p r o m o t e s o c i a l i n c lu s i o n a n d e c o n o m ic
in c l u s i o n .
fr a m e w o r k .

B u t t h a t m u s t b e d o n e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h a r e g u la t o r y
A n d o n e o f o u r – o n e o f t h e c h a ll e n g e s is t h a t t h e

r e g u la t o r y fr a m e w o r k d o e s n o t e n a b le th e e ffe c t iv e a p p li c a t io n o f s o m e

Page 18 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
o f t h e p o li c i e s w h i c h h a v e b e e n is s u e d .

T h e t h i r d c h a ll e n g e C h a i r

r e l a t e s t o th e m a n d a to r y n a t u r e o f t h e – o f t h e s y s t e m .
a l m o s t l it t le t o n o d is c r e t io n .

I t a ll o w s f o r

I th i n k t h e u n d e r ly in g in t e n t is t o

in tr o d u c e a s y s t e m w h e r e d is c r e t io n is k e p t t o a m in i m u m f o r f e a r th a t
d is c r e ti o n is v e r y o f t e n a b u s e d i n t h e s u p p ly c h a i n fr a m e w o r k .

But

e v e n a s y s te m t h a t a ll o w s f o r li t tl e o r n o d i s c r e t i o n c a n i ts e l f b e a b u s e d
where

we

fi n d

t h a t s u p p li e r s

can

be

e l i m in a t e d

for

sometimes

i m m a t e r i a l n o n - c o m p li a n c e o f s o m e o r o t h e r p r o v is i o n t h a t h a s b e e n s e t
o u t i n t h e – i n t h e v a r i o u s p r o c u r e m e n t d o c u m e n ts .
10

C h a ir I a ls o

m e n ti o n a m b i g u i ty. T h e f a c t th a t t h e r u l e s a r e n o t w e l l w r i t t e n i n m a n y
in s t a n c e s th a t t h e y a r e s o m e t i m e s q u i te o p a q u e t h a t o n e h a s t o e n g a g e
w i t h th e a u t h o r s o f th e r u le a n d s o m e t i m e s y o u g e t m o r e th a n o n e
in t e r p r e t a ti o n fr o m t h e a u t h o r s o f th e r u l e s . A n d I a ls o m e n ti o n th a t t h e
– t h e p r o c u r e m e n t e n v ir o n m e n t h a s a s tr o n g p u n i ti v e c h a r a c t e r w h e r e
a n y m i s s t e p c a n o f t e n r e s u l t i n – w e l l i t d o e s r e s u l t i n ir r e g u l a r
e x p e n d i t u r e a n d o f c o u r s e d is c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s e s t h a t g o e s w it h th a t .
N o w h e r e i s n o d i ffic u l t y w i t h ta k i n g s tr e n u o u s m e a s u r e s a g a in s t p e o p l e
w h o a b u s e t h e – t h e s y s t e m b u t t h e – th e a t m o s p h e r e – t h e p u n i t iv e
a t m o s p h e r e is s o m e t h in g t h a t I a m q u i t e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t b e c a u s e i t i s

20

c r e a ti n g a n e n v ir o n m e n t w h e r e p e o p le a r e r e lu c t a n t fi r s tl y t o j o in th e
s u p p ly c h a i n c o m m u n it y a n d s e c o n d l y t o t a k e d e c is i o n s . O n e fi n d s a n
a v o i d a n c e o f d e c is io n m a k in g a n a v o i d a n c e o f r e s p o n s i b ili t y a n d I a m
c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e – th e i m p a c t o p e r a ti o n a ll y t h a t t h i s g r o w i n g
c li m a t e o f f e a r is c r e a ti n g w i th in t h e o r g a n s o f s ta t e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

I a m s u r e Mr Vo l m i n k t h a t th e

Page 19 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C h a ir w h e n h e f o r m u l a t e s h i s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s h e w il l d e fi n it e ly ta k e
c o g n is a n c e o f th e s e c h a ll e n g e s a n d s e e h o w b e s t t h e y c a n b e t a il o r e d
in o r d e r t o e n s u r e t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t r u l e s a r e s y n c h r o n i s e d i n t h e
m a n n e r t h a t y o u h a v e a c t u a ll y a r t ic u l a te d . M a y I th e n r e f e r y o u … ?
CHAIRPERSON : Maybe before you proceed Mr Mokoena of course it is
v e r y i m p o r ta n t th a t h e l e g i s l a tiv e fr a m e w o r k b e c l e a r …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d a s f a r a s p o s s i b l e c e r ta in s o t h a t e v e r y b o d y

k n o w s w h a t f a lls o u t s i d e t h e f r a m e w o r k – l e g is la t iv e f r a m e w o r k a n d
10

p o li c i e s a n d w h a t f a l l – w h a t f a ll s w i th i n b e c a u s e t h e n i f y o u h a v e t h a t
k in d o f c e r t a in ty t h e n n o b o d y c a n s a y I d i d n o t k n o w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

E v e r y o n e w h o d o e s s o m e t h i n g th a t fa ll s fo u l o f t h e

le g i s l a ti o n o r th e p r e s c r i p ts k n o w s t h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g s o m e t h i n g th a t is
in b r e a c h o f t h e l a w. O f c o u r s e y o u a l w a y s h a v e t h is t e n s i o n b e t w e e n
c e r t a i n ty a n d fl e x i b il it y b e c a u s e i f y o u h a v e c e r t a i n ty y o u a r e li k e ly to
h a v e a c e r t a i n a m o u n t o f r ig i d i ty a n d – a n d s o m e ti m e s th a t m a y b e –
t h a t m a y b e fa ir b u t s o m e t i m e s i t m a y p r o d u c e u n f a ir r e s u lt s t h a t r i g id i ty
a n d th e n y o u w a n t f a i r n e s s o n t h e o th e r s i d e .
20

N o w fa ir n e s s c a n n o t

w o r k w i t h r i g i d i ty.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

F a ir n e s s

needs

to

take

into

a c c o u n t d i ffe r e n t

c ir c u m s ta n c e s fo r d i ff e r e n t c a s e s a n d I g u e s s t h a t w i t h a n y l e g is l a ti o n
r e l a t e a n d p o li c i e s r e l a ti n g t o p r o c u r e m e n t th o s e i s s u e s a r e a lw a y s
h e r e b u t t h e r e c a n b e n o d o u b t t h a t t h e r e s h o u ld a s f a r a s p o s s i b le n o

Page 20 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
b e 8 0 p ie c e s o f l e g is l a t i o n d e a li n g w i t h t h is – w i t h t h e s a m e s u b je c t .
S o p r o b a b ly t h e r e is a n e e d t o t r y a n d b r i n g i t d o w n . I d o n o t k n o w i f i t
c a n b e o n e p i e c e o f l e g is la t io n . P r o b a b ly n o t m a y b e t w o o r t h r e e b u t
8 0 i s c e r t a i n ly t o o m u c h to o m a n y. S o – s o a l l o f t h o s e t h i n g s w o u l d b e
– would need to be looked at but to the extent that what we are
c o n c e r n e d w i t h is a c ts o f c o r r u p ti o n a n d s t a t e c a p t u r e .

M o s tl y w h a t

o n e w o u l d b e d e a li n g w i t h th e r e a r e n o t p e o p le w h o – w h o a r e g o i n g t o
g o o u t s i d e t h e le g is l a ti o n b e c a u s e t h e y a r e c o n f u s e d b y th e m u l t ip li c i ty
o f p i e c e s o f l e g is la t io n b u t o n e i s d e a li n g w i t h p e o p le w h o d o n o t w a n t
10

t o c o m p l y w i t h a n y l e g i s l a ti o n o r w h o w a n t t o c r e a te t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t
t h e y c o m p l y w h e n t h e y a c t u a lly k n o w th a t t h e y d o n o t c o m p ly.

Yo u –

you may or may not know because of your job maybe you do know to
w h a t e x t e n t p r o b l e ms o f p r o c u r e m e n t r e la t e d t o p e o p l e w h o g e n u i n e l y
d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h e l e g i s l a tiv e r e q u i r e m e n t s a n d p o l ic ie s a s o p p o s e d
t o p e o p l e w h o – w h o k n o w w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n is o r w h o d o n o t c a r e w h a t
t h e p o s i t io n i s b u t s i m p l y w a n t t o a c h i e v e i ll e g a l o b j e c t iv e s .

I am - I

a m - if y o u k n o w y o u c a n t e ll m e . I f y o u d o n o t k n o w I w il l u n d e r s t a n d .
N a m e ly a t a p r a c t ic a l l e v e l m a y b e w i th i n t h e c o n t e x t o f Tr a n s n e t h o w
m u c h is t h e p r o b le m o n e o f p e o p le n o t u n d e r s t a n d i n g p o l ic ie s a n d
20

le g i s l a ti o n w h e n i t c o m e s to p r o c u r e m e n t ir r e g u l a r i ti e s t h a t m a y – th a t
are found?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I th i n k t h e r e is a

g o o d m ix t u r e o f b o t h s c e n a r io s th a t y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o . O n e t h e o n e
h a n d t h e r e a r e o r d i n a r y h a r d w o r k i n g o ff ic i a ls – b u y e r s - a t g r o u n d l e v e l
s o t o s p e a k – w h o – w h o b a t tl e t o u n d e r s t a n d a ll t h e p r o c u r e m e n t

Page 21 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t a r e i m p o s e d o n th e m a n d v e r y o f t e n w e f i n d th a t
d e v i a ti o n

fr o m

the

regulatory

r e q u ir e m e n ts

is

as

a

r e s u lt

of

a d m i n is tr a t iv e b u n g li n g – f o r l a c k o f a b e t t e r te r m . I n d iv i d u a l s w h o j u s t
d o n o t h a v e a p r o p e r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e m u l t ip li c i ty o f – o f
r e q u ir e m e n t s . I t is a n o t h e r c a t e g o r y o f p e o p l e w h o – p e r h a p s I w i ll u s e
t h e t e r m w il f u l ig n o r a n c e - w h e r e i t i s n o t t h a t t h e y d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d .
T h e y d o n o t w a n t to u n d e r s ta n d w h a t th e r e q u ir e m e n t s a r e o r t o p u t i t
d i ff e r e n t ly t h e y d o n o t w a n t t o b e b o u n d b y w h a t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts a r e
u n l e s s i t i s a c o n v e n i e n t r u le w h i c h t h e y d o n o t m i n d c o m p l y i n g w i t h .
10

S o I t h i n k C h a ir t h e – t h e r e is a n u m b e r o f i n s t a n c e s w h e r e h a v e s e e n
ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e o c c u r r in g i n Tr a n s n e t th a t c o m e s a b o u t a s a r e s u l t
o f b u n g l in g b u t t h e b i g ti c k e t i t e m s - e s p e c i a l ly t h o s e th a t o r i g in a t e
fr o m t h e l e v e ls o f th e B o a r d a n d t h e E x c o - i t is v e r y d i ff ic u l t f o r m e t o
b e li e v e t h a t p e o p l e a t t h a t le v e l j u s t s i m p ly d id n o t k n o w w h a t t h e –
w h a t th e r u l e s a r e e s p e c ia ll y i f o n e l o o k s a t t h e n a tu r e o f t h e b r e a c h e s
w h ic h h a v e o c c u r r e d .
f o ll o w e d .

I t i s h a r d ly a c o m p l e x r u le w h ic h w a s n o t

S o m e t i m e s it i s j u s t c h a n g i n g a n e v a l u a t io n c r i t e r i a i n th e

m i d d l e o f a n e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s . S o – s o I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e i s c e r t a i n ly
b o t h o f t h o s e s c e n a r io s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Mr Vo l m i n k c a n y o u n o w t u r n t o

s li d e f iv e a n d t a k e u s t h r o u g h – a n d y o u c a n d o th a t i n a s u m m a r y fo r m
b e c a u s e y o u a r e s t il l g o i n g t o d e a l w it h i t m u c h m o r e c o m p r e h e n s iv e l y
a t a l a t e r s ta g e . ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is p a g e 1 0 1 ?

Page 22 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 1 0 1 M r C h a ir.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir t h is j u s t s h o w s t h e r e g u l a to r y h o w t h e r e g u la t o r y o r l e g i s l a tiv e l a n d s c a p e h a s c h a n g e d f o r Tr a n s n e t
a n d o th e r m a j o r S O C s o v e r t i m e .

S o o n t h e f a r le f t h a n d s id e o f th e

s li d e i t s h o w s t h e p o s i ti o n b e f o r e 2 0 – w e l l j a – b e fo r e 2 0 11 a n d a t t h a t
p o i n t th e P P P FA a n d i ts v a r i o u s r e g u l a t i o n s d id n o t a p p ly t o Tr a n s n e t .
Tr a n s n e t w a s a t li b e r t y t o d e t e r m i n e i t s o w n p r o c u r e m e n t s y s t e m s a n d
m e t h o d o l o g i e s o f c o u r s e i n c o m p li a n c e w i th t h e P F M A a n d th e
C o n s t i tu t io n a n d th e l ik e .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e s i g n i fi c a n t c h a n g e h a p p e n e d i n

2 0 11 w h e n t h e P P P FA R e g u l a ti o n s w e r e a p p li e d t o Tr a n s n e t a n d a t t h a t
p o i n t t h e M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e h a d in d ic a t e d th a t S c h e d u l e 2 e n t i ti e s h a d
t o c o m p ly b u t h e e x e m p t e d …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Tr a n s n e t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e Sc h e d u le 2 e n t it i e s fo r a p e r i o d
o f – I t h i n k – o n e y e a r fr o m 7 D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 u n t il 7 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 .
T h e r e w e r e s o m e p r o v is io n s w h i c h a p p l ie d i m m e d i a te ly s u c h a s l o c a l
c o n te n t a n d t h e p r o v is io n s g o v e r n i n g ta x c o m p l i a n c e – I t h i n k – a p p l i e d
20

i m m e d i a t e ly b u t th e S O C s m a j o r S c h e d u l e 2 S O C s w e r e e x e m p te d f o r a
p e r i o d o f ti m e .

Th e n in 2 0 1 5 /2 0 1 6 w e s a w a s i g n i fi c a n t n u m b e r o f

in s t r u c t i o n s b e in g r o ll e d o u t a n d a p p li e d t o t h e Sc h e d u le 2 ’s w h ic h d i d
n o t a p p ly b e f o r e a n d I j u s t m e n ti o n s o m e o f t h e m s u c h a s t h e u s e o f a n
e - te n d e r p u b l ic a ti o n p o r t a l , a c e n tr a l s u p p ly d a ta b a s e , r u l e s o n
c o n s tr u c ti o n p r o c u r e m e n t – s o c a ll e d S I P D M – t h e r u l e s a r o u n d t h e

Page 23 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
r e s tr ic ti o n o f s u p p l ie r s , u s e o f e m e r g e n c i e s , c o n tr a c t v a r i a ti o n s ,
d e v i a ti o n s fr o m t h e c o m p e t it iv e b i d d i n g p r o c e s s . T h e s e a ll a p p li e d i n a
n u m b e r o f i n s tr u c t io n s t h a t w e r e is s u e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d th e y w e r e i s s u e d b y N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : By N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
r ig h t
10

hand

side

shows

the

A n d th e n t h e l a s t c o l u m n o n t h e f a r

current

p o s i t io n .

Of course

these

in s t r u c t i o n s s ti ll a p p ly b u t i n a d d i ti o n t h e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y is s u e d n e w
r e g u la t io n s u n d e r t h e P P P FA i n 2 0 1 7 a n d t h e y c o v e r t h i n g s l ik e th e u s e
o f p r e q u a l i fi c a t io n c r it e r i a t o a d v a n c e v a r i o u s d e s ig n a te d g r o u p s . A ls o
it r e l a t e s t o t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f p r i c e s t h a t m u s t b e m a r k e t r e la t e d a n d
y o u c a n n o t a w a r d a b id t h a t is n o t m a r k e t r e l a t e d a n d v a r io u s o t h e r
p r o v i s i o n s a r e d e a l t w it h i n th e 2 0 1 7 r e g u l a ti o n s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s b u t a s a n d w h e n t h o s e i n s tr u c ti o n s

a r e b e in g is s u e d i t w o u ld m e a n t h a t Tr a n s n e t m u s t a ls o c o n fir m w i t h
t h o s e i n s tr u c ti o n s a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e ir S C M P o li c i e s a r e in l in e
w i t h t h o s e i n s tr u c ti o n s ?
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

That

is

corr ect

C h a ir.

Unless

Tr a n s n e t a p p l ie s f o r a s p e c i f ic e x e m p ti o n i t i s b o u n d b y t h e – th e s e
in s t r u c t i o n s a s w e l l.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w s li d e s ix C h a ir p a g e 1 0 2 i t

a ls o ta lk s a b o u t t h e s a m e i s s u e s t h a t y o u a r e c o n v e r s i n g .
correct?

Page 24 of 208

Am I

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d s l id e s e v e n s o t h a t t h e C h a ir

m u s t n o t s a y th a t I h a v e s k i p p e d a n y s l id e . I t is j u s t a b e a u t i fu l g o o d
s c r e e n . I a m n o t s u r e w h a t i t i s c a r r y in g . S li d e …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I th in k i t i s j u s t m e a n t t o d e p i c t t h e

n e x t – th e n e x t h e a d in g o f t h e p r e s e n ta t io n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h ic h i s G o v e r n a n c e C h e c k p o i n ts .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w le t u s g o t o s l i d e e i g h t a n d p le a s e
10

take us through the bodies responsible to ensure governance – good
g o v e r n a n c e o f th e p r o c e s s e s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

S o C h a ir w h e n t h e p o l ic ie s a n d

p r o c e d u r e s a r e w r it t e n v a r i o u s b o d i e s a r e c r e a t e d w h o a r e m e a n t t o
p e r f o r m – l e t u s c a ll it - w a t c h d o g o r c h e c k p o i n t f u n c ti o n s th r o u g h o u t
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : K in d o f o v e r s i g h t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ex a c t ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir th e fir s t b o d y i s r e f e r r e d to a s
20

t h e C r o s s Fu n c t io n a l S o u r c in g Te a m o r C F S T fo r s h o r t a n d t h e
r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h a t b o d y is t o e n s u r e th a t w h e n s p e c i fi c a t io n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir i f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 2 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I a ls o h a d t h e s a m e d i ffi c u l ti e s o f

Page 25 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
u n d e r s t a n d in g th e s e a c r o n y m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d I r e q u e s t e d th a t t h e r e m u s t b e a fu ll
lis t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E x p l a i n in g t h e s e n a m e s i n f u ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d if y o u g o t o p a g e 1 2 4 y o u w i ll b e

a b l e t o fi n d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To fi n d t h e f u l l n a m e s ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F u ll n a m e s o f t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

S o I w a s s a y in g C h a ir th a t th e

r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h is C r o s s Fu n c t i o n a l S o u r c i n g Te a m …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Is

to

write

s p e c i fi c a t io n s

and

e v a l u a t i o n m e t h o d o l o g i e s i n a w a y t h a t e n s u r e s t h a t th e c r i te r i a is
o b j e c ti v e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : That they are unbiased.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 26 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : That they are fit for purpose.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

It

s t a r ts

there.

How

is

the

procurement document written …?
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t h a t i s t h e f ir s t c h e c k p o i n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : In t h e g o v e r n a n c e p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : If y o u h a v e a b a d ly w r i t t e n R F P …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

That

is

riddl ed

w i th

a m b ig u it y,

vagueness …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O r w o r s e i n fe c t e d b y b ia s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th e n

it

a ff e c t s

the

le g a l i ty

of

w h a t e v e r fo ll o w s th e r e a f t e r. S o t h a t is th e fir s t b o d y. T h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i th r e g a r d t o i t is w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n a t a p r a c t ic a l
20

le v e l th is t h a t s o m e b o d y i n s o m e d e p a r t m e n t a t Tr a n s n e t w o u ld
f o r m u l a t e fo r e x a m p l e s p e c if ic a ti o n b u t b e f o r e it c a n b e s e n t o u t i t
s h o u l d c o m e t o t h is b o d y f o r t h e m t o c h e c k w h e t h e r i t i s o k a y o r d o
t h e y c h e c k t h a t a f t e r w a r d s o r h o w d o e s it h a p p e n … ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s . T h i s is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a r e t h e o n e s w h o d o t h e d r a f ti n g ?

Page 27 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o e v e r y – e v e r y s p e c i fi c a t i o n o r r e q u e s t f o r

p r o p o s a l s t h a t g o e s o u t th e y w o u l d t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty – s o t o s p e a k –
t h e y w o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e d r a f ti n g o f i t …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O r i g i n a t e s w i th t h e C r o s s Fu n c t i o n a l
S o u r c in g Te a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , o k a y.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t i t t h e n h a s t o g o th r o u g h v a r io u s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Approval levels.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o t h e r e a r e v a r i o u s i n d iv id u a ls …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Or bodies
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W i t h d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h i c h I w i ll c o m e t o i n a l it t le b it

la t e r o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To g iv e t h e c l e a r a n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 28 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : That we are now …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : G o o d to g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t th is t e n d e r c a n b e is s u e d to – t o
market.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o t h e y s t a r t t h e p r o c e s s o f d r a f ti n g b u t t h e y
are not the final word?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : h e y a r e n o t t h e fi n a l w o r d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : On whether it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S h o u ld b e r e l e a s e d o r n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t I – I r e fe r t o t h e m C h a i r b e c a u s e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e y a ls o b e a r r e s p o n s ib il i ty fo r – f o r
g o o d g o v e r n a n c e . T h e w a y t h e y w r i t e t h a t d o c u m e n t. Th e y c a n n o t s a y

20

n o s o m e o n e e ls e – it is s o m e o n e ’s r e s p o n s ib il i ty to a p p r o v e it s r e l e a s e
t o t h e m a r k e t . T h e y a r e t h e in d iv i d u a ls w h o m u s t t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r
e n s u r i n g t h a t i t i s u n a m b i g u o u s , f a ir a n d o b je c t iv e i n te r ms o f th e
c r i t e r i a th a t a r e l is t e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 29 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d t o a n o th e r o n e .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t h e – t h e n e x t b o d y th a t I

m e n ti o n a n d a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d e a r l i e r I w i ll t a lk a li t tl e b i t l a t e r a b o u t
t h e b o d i e s w h o a ls o h a v e to a p p r o v e th e s e th i n g s b u t I m e n t io n t h e
C r o s s Fu n c t io n a l Ev a lu a ti o n Te a m o f C F E T f o r s h o r t a n d w h a t t h e C F E T
d o e s i s t h e y m u s t n o w e v a lu a t e th e t e n d e r. I t h a s b e e n w r i t t e n b y t h e
C F S Te a m . I t h a s b e e n is s u e d to t h e m a r k e t . B i d s h a v e b e e n r e c e iv e d
a n d n o w it m u s t c o m e t o t h i s b o d y – t h e C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l E v a l u a t i o n
Te a m . T h e y a r e t h e o n e s …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Well …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h o a r e r e s p o n s i b le fo r e n s u r i n g

t h a t t h e e v a l u a ti o n o f th e te n d e r m u s t b e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th e R F P.
T h e y c a n n o t s tr a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Fr o m t h e te r ms o f th e R F P.

They

m u s t e n s u r e t h a t s c o r i n g is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

F o l lo w e d fa ir l y, r a t io n a l ly a n d – a n d

s o o n a n d s o fo r t h .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

W e l l M r M o k o e n a I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t is

y o u r p l a n o r M r Vo l m in k ’s o n e I w o u l d p r e f e r t o h e a r a b o u t th e b o d ie s
t o w h i c h – f o r e x a m p l e – r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l g o e s to a f te r t h e C F S
Te a m h a s d o n e i t b e fo r e I h e a r a b o u t a b o d y s u c h a s C F E T w h ic h …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON : Looks at it after it has gone out and come back.

Page 30 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Sure, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t f o r m e w o u l d m a k e i t e a s i e r.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja. I am …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s , I a m h a p p y t o d o th a t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P l e a s e p r o c e e d to d o t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u c a n d o t h a t t h a t w o u l d – th a t w o u l d …
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e n w e w il l c o m e b a c k t o s l i d e e i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B u t it w i ll g i v e th e C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I j u s t w a n t t o fo ll o w i n s e q u e n c e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n a p p r e c ia ti o n , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

S o C h a ir a f t e r t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t

h a s b e e n w r it t e n b y t h e C F S T …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
20

Th e te n d e r d o c u m e n t w o u l d b e o f

c o u r s e th e – t h e R F P i ts e l f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t a ls o th e p r o c u r e m e n t s tr a t e g y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t in f o r m s t h e – t h e R F P.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w o u l d d r a f t e v e r y t h i n g r e la t in g to t h e t e n d e r … ?

Page 31 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

That must be – that must be in place before the

r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a ls g o e s o u t?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B e fo r e it g o e s o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e y h a v e t o s e t o u t th e r e c o r d w h a t
d o e s Tr a n s n e t r e q u ir e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h a t i s t h e e v a l u a ti o n m e t h o d o lo g y ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

H o w w ill t h e p r ic e p r e f e r e n c e b e

a p p li e d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : A range of things must …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B e d e a l t w i t h i n t h e s e d o c u m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, a lr i g h t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To j u s t d e a l w i th y o u r q u e s t io n C h a ir
…
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A s to t h e a p p r o v a l b o d i e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : There are various levels …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Of approval …

Page 32 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

D e p e n d i n g o n th e v a l u e o f t h e

t e n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o f o r e x a m p le i f t h e t e n d e r is u n d e r
- a n d i t is q u it e a h ig h a m o u n t b u t u n d e r 5 0 0 m i ll io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O f f ic e r w h o is
t h e H e a d o f P r o c u r e m e n t i n th e v a r io u s o p e r a t i n g d i v is i o n s …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

M u s t s i g n t o s a y th a t h e o r s h e is

s a ti s f i e d t h a t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e t e n d e r a r e c l e a r ly s p e l t o u t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

That

the

r e q u ir e m e n t s

are

f a ir,

u n b ia s e d a n d f i t f o r p u r p o s e . A l s o C h a ir t h e H e a d o f t h e – w h a t w e c a ll
t h e E n d U s e r D e p a r t m e n t – t h e E n g i n e e r in g D e p a r t m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O r w h o e v e r it is th a t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : R e q u ir e d t h e s p e c i fi c a t io n s o r r a th e r
w h o r e q u ir e d t h e g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Th e y a r e o f t e n th e o n e s w h o h e l p to
w r i t e th e s p e c i f ic a t i o n s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 33 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMIN K: And the Head of that department …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

M u s t s ig n o ff b e f o r e i t c a n b e

released …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

To s a y t h a t t h e s e s p e c i fi c a t io n s a r e

n o t b i a s e d a n d i t w il l m e e t t h e n e e d s o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n e tc e t e r a .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t w o u l d b e a n y t e n d e r a n y r e q u e s t fo r p r o p o s a ls

w o u ld r e l a t e t o a p a r tic u l a r u n i t o r d e p a r t m e n t - w h a t e v e r y o u c a ll t h e m
10

– w i th in Tr a n s n e t . Is th a t r i g h t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e w o u l d b e a u n i t o f d iv is i o n o r s o m e s e c t i o n
o f Tr a n s n e t t o w h i c h i t r e la t e s ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t w h a t e v e r th e u n it , w h a te v e r t h e d e p a r t m e n t,

w h a t e v e r t h e s e c t io n i s t h e o n ly b o d y t h a t c a n d r a f t a t fi r s t in s ta n c e t h e
s p e c i f ic a ti o n s a n d t h e r e q u e s t fo r p r o p o s a ls w o u l d b e th is C F S T t h a t
y o u t o ld m e a b o u t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u s a y f r o m t h e r e i t d o e s n o t g o o u t – th e
r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l s . It g o e s to v a r i o u s a p p r o v i n g le v e ls a n d b o d i e s
a n d o n l y w h e n i t – i t h a s b e e n a p p r o v e d b y a ll o f t h e m o r th e f i n a l o n e
that has the final say does it then go out?

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is p r e c is e ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d t o a t t h is s ta g e a f te r
t h e C F S T h a s d r a f t e d o n e i s – i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly – t h e
Chief…
A D V P I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : ( In d i s ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r – w o u l d i t b e
o f t h e s e c ti o n o r u n i t w h e r e t h e t e n d e r is n e e d e d ?
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e w o r k o r g o o d s a r e r e q u ir e d ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s .

It

would

be

the

C h ie f

P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r o f t h e o p e r a ti n g d iv i s i o n l ik e Tr a n s n e t Fr e ig h t R a il
h a s i t s o w n C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r.

T h e r e m a y b e v a r io u s u n it s

within …
CHAIRPERSON : Oh underneath.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Within TFR.
CHAIRPERSON :

O h , s o i t w o u l d b e t h e o p e r a t i n g – t h e C h ie f

P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r s o f t h e o p e r a t i n g u n it u n d e r w h ic h th e o p e r a t in g
20

v e h ic l e – c o m p a n y o r w h a te v e r – u n d e r w h ic h t h e p a r ti c u l a r s e c ti o n t h a t
n e e d s th e w o r k o r g o o d s t h e s e r v ic e s o r g o o d s f a l ls ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W e r e f e r to t h e m a s E n d U s e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : E n d U s e r.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : E n d U s e r D e p a r t m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o i t c o u l d b e e n g in e e r i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: HR.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It c o u l d b e le g a l . A r a n g e o f u n i t s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
10

W h o o p e r a t e w i t h i n th a t o p e r a ti n g

d iv is io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

When

they

require

goods

and

s e r v ic e s t h e y w o u l d ty p ic a lly p r o v i d e p e o p l e w h o c a n h e l p t o w r i t e t h e
s p e c i f ic a ti o n s . Th e y s i t o n th e C F S Te a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

But they have to take it to a

delegated body …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To a p p r o v e it s r e l e a s e t o t h e m a r k e t
20

a n d t h i s w a s i n tr o d u c e d p r e c is e ly b e c a u s e w e h a d e x p e r ie n c e d i n t h e
p a s t t h a t t e n d e r s w e r e is s u e d t o th e m a r k e t w i th o u t p r o p e r o v e r s i g h t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Without anyone checking and then …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e d i ff i c u l t ie s a r e p i c k e d u p …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : L a t e r.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A f t e r it h a s b e e n ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

S o fr o m th e C h ie f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r o f t h e

End User Department they go to the Head of the End User Department.
Is t h a t r ig h t?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON :

Th e r e q u e s t o f p r o p o s a l s o r n o t y e t ?

I th o u g h t y o u

m e n ti o n e d th e H e a d a s w e l l .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o , n o , n o . T h e r e a r e tw o …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d m a y b e le t m e ju s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ta k e u s t h r o u g h t h i s a g a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o t h e C h i e f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Is t h e o n e w h o is g o i n g t o s ig n o ff o n
the RFP as a whole.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To s a y I a m h a p p y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t t h is R F P …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Can be released to the market.
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.

Page 37 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e r e i s t h e H e a d o f th e E n d U s e r

D e p a r t m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h a t t h a t p e r s o n m u s t d o is t o

c o n fir m i n w r i ti n g …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th a t

the

s p e c i fi c a t io n s

–

the

t e c h n ic a l s p e c if ic a ti o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is l i s t e d i n t h e R F P …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

That

he

c o n f ir m s

that

those

s p e c i f ic a ti o n s a r e u n b ia s e d a n d i t i s f i t f o r p u r p o s e e t c e t e r a …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t h e – th a t w a s i n tr o d u c e d w i th a
v e r y s p e c i fic p u r p o s e in m i n d . I t v e r y o ft e n h a p p e n e d th a t R F P s w e r e
is s u e d to t h e m a r k e t a n d th e n l a t e r t h e E n d U s e r D e p a r t m e n t s a y s b u t
n o t h e s e s p e c i fic a ti o n s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Do not suit our needs.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Yo u m u s t c a n c e l a n d y o u m u s t s t a r t

a g a in e tc e te r a .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h ic h i s w h y r e q u ir e fir s tly t h e E n d

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
U s e r – t h e H e a d o f th e E n d U s e r D e p a r t m e n t s i g n s o ff o n th o s e
s p e c i f ic a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th e s p e c i fic a ti o n s g e ts i n c o r p o r a te d

in t o t h e R F P …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d t h e R F P is t h e n ta k e n t o th e

CPO …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Under a certain v alue …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

F o r th e C P O t o s a y h e o r s h e is

h a p p y fo r t h e R F P t o b e is s u e d t o th e m a r k e t.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d t h e C P O b e in g – I a m n o lo o k in g a t p a g e 1 2 4 .

T h e f u l l – f u l l n a m e o r t i tl e – C P O ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y, o k a y. T h a t o n e n o w is it t h e o n e f o r
t h e w h o le o f Tr a n s n e t o r o n ly – o r t h e o n e y o u r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Fo r t h e o p e r a ti n g d iv i s i o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , f o r th e o p e r a t i n g .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o d o e s th e H e a d s i g n a ft e r th e C P O h a s s ig n e d o r

t h e C P O s i g n s f ir s t t h e n th e H e a d ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e H e a d f ir s t o r th e C P O ?

Page 39 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W e ll t h e H e a d o f t h e E n d U s e r

D e p a r t m e n t s i g n s o ff f ir s t to s a y t h a t t h e s p e c i fi c a t i o n s a r e i n o r d e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d a f te r t h a t o f c o u r s e a s I s a id t h e
s p e c i f ic a ti o n s g e t i n c o r p o r a t e d i n t o t h e R F P d o c u m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t h e n i t g e t s t a k e n t o th e C P O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To s a y t h is is n o w th e c o m p le t e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: RFP …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

E i t h e r s a y y a y o r n a y th a t y o u a r e

h a p p y w i t h t h is ( i n d i s t i n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n i f h e o r s h e is h a p p y w h a t is th e n e x t s t e p ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th e n e x t s t e p is t h a t t h e t e n d e r i s

then …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e le a s e d o r s e t o u t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : R e le a s e d – a d v e r tis e d …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d m a d e a v a il a b l e o n t h e e - t e n d e r

p o r t a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d it t h e n b e c o m e s a p u b lic – a

p u b lic d o c u m e n t .

Page 40 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o t h e s t e p s a r e n o t m a n y in t e r m s o f o n c e a f t e r
t h e C F – C F S T.

I t is t h e H e a d o f t h e E n d U s e r D e p a r t m e n t a n d th e

CPO?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d th e n it g e ts – a n d t h e n i t g e ts

released.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It g e t s t o t h e C P O f ir s t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A f t e r it g e ts i t to t h e C P O …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d C P O a p p r o v e s it …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It w i ll b e r e l e a s e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w i ll b e r e l e a s e d y e s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : After that.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e – th o s e s t e p s d o t h e y c h a n g e d e p e n d i n g o n t h e
amount of the value?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o f o r a h i g h e r v a lu e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Te n d e r s

the

e n t i ty

who

has

to

a p p r o v e th e – s a y b e t w e e n 5 0 0 a n d 7 0 0 m i lli o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

CPO

w i ll n o t g iv e t h e

Page 41 of 208

u l ti m a t e

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
approval.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C P O w il l r e c o m m e n d …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To a n E x c o m e m b e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d t h e E x c o m e m b e r is t h e n t h e

e n t i ty w h o w il l s i g n o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Fo r y e t h i g h e r v a lu e s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S a y b e t w e e n 7 0 0 a n d a b i ll io n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A g a in it f o ll o w s t h e s a m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr o c e s s – C P O …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : D r a f ts , i t g o e s t o t h e Ex c o m e m b e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th e n i t s e r v e s b e f o r e – w h a t is

k n o w n a s a P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e w h ic h is t h e – a S u b C o m m i t t e e o f
Exco …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h o h a s t o a p p r o v e b e tw e e n 7 0 0

m il li o n a n d a b i ll io n …

Page 42 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d t h e n a n y t e n d e r a b o v e a b i ll io n

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t i ts e l f …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Fo ll o w s a ll o f t h o s e p r o c e s s e s b u t

u l ti m a t e ly …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It h a s to b e a p p r o v e d b y – b y E x c o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : In t e r m s o f – o f t h e – o u r m o s t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : D e le g a ti o n s o f a u t h o r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t - th a t is v e r y h e l p f u l.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Then we can talk about what happens when the –

a ft e r th e r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l s h a s g o n e o u t t o t h e m a r k e t a n d th e n s o
20

on. Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

P r io r to t h a t C h a ir i t w i ll b e a l s o

i m p o r t a n t fo r u s t o a p p r e c i a te w h a t is c o n t a i n e d in s l id e e i g h t b e c a u s e
t h o s e r e l e v a n t b o d i e s b e c o m e a ls o c r i t ic a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h e n w e d e a l w i t h s p e c i fi c tr a n s a c t i o n s

Page 43 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
a n d a ls o th e y d o v e t a i l w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f o th e r w i tn e s s e s th a t w e
s c h e d u l e d f o r th is s e s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f I m a y r e fe r y o u b a c k t o s li d e e i g h t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u h a v e c o m p r e h e n s iv e l y t a k e n th e

C h a ir t h r o u g h th e C F S T a n d th e C F E T. N o w t h e r e i s t h is c r e a t u r e t h a t
is n o r m a ll y r e f e r r e d t o a s th e A c q u is i ti o n C o u n c il .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y I in t e r r u p t e d h i m w h i l e – w h e n h e w a s
b e g in n i n g to t a lk a b o u t C F E T.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e is m u c h to s a y o t h e r
t h a n w h a t is w r it t e n t h e r e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I th i n k t h e p o in t is s i m p ly th a t t h i s i s
the body that must ensure…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t t h e e v a l u a t io n o f a te n d e r …

20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Is d o n e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e –

w h a t i s s e t o u t in t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d o f c o u r s e w i t h th e P P M a s a

w h o le .

Page 44 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t d o t h e y c a r r y o u t t h e a c tu a l e v a l u a t i o n o r is i t

s o m e b o d y e l s e w h o c a r r i e s o u t t h e e v a l u a t io n a n d th e y m u s t j u s t c h e c k
w h e t h e r t h e e v a lu a ti o n h a s b e e n d o n e p r o p e r ly ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

N o th e y a r e t h e a c t u a l e v a l u a t o r s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : E v a lu a t o r s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

T h e c r o s s - fu n c t io n e v a l u a t io n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

W e c a n m o v e o n Mr Vo l m i n k t o t h e

A c q u is i t io n C o u n c il .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Ye s , C h a ir t h e n w e h a v e a b o d y

r e fe r r e d t o a s t h e A c q u i s i ti o n C o u n c il , I t h i n k i n th e r e s t o f t h e p u b li c
s e c t o r i t is r e f e r r e d to a s th e Bi d A d ju d i c a ti o n C o m m i t te e .

I th in k in

p r e v i o u s y e a r s i t w a s c a ll e d a Te n d e r B o a r d , a n d th is is th e B o d y w h o
is r e s p o n s i b le fo r e n s u r i n g t h a t th e a w a r d o f t h e t e n d e r i s f a ir a n d
le g a l ly c o m p li a n t , s o i t is t y p ic a l ly m a d e u p o f fa ir l y s e n i o r p e o p l e
w i t h i n th e o p e r a t in g d iv is io n .

T h e r e w il l b e a n Ac q u is i ti o n C o u n c i l i n

e a c h o f t h e o p e r a ti n g d iv is io n s a n d t h e y a r e t y p ic a l ly c o n s t i tu t e d o f t h e
20

senior managers, or general managers within that department or rather
w i t h i n t h e O p e r a ti n g D i v i s i o n a n d i t i s t h e i r r e s p o n s i b i li ty to e n s u r e th a t
b e f o r e a te n d e r i s a w a r d e d t h a t th e y a r e s a ti s f i e d t h a t th e p r o c e s s is
c o m p li a n t w i th t h e r e g u l a t o r y fr a m e w o r k a n d t h a t t h e s e le c ti o n o f t h e
s u c c e s s fu l te n d e r e r t h a t i t f o l l o w e d a f a ir a n d e q u i ta b le p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o t h e r e w o u l d b e a n u m b e r o f A c q u is it i o n C o u n c il

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
within

Tr a n s n e t

because

e ach

O p e r a t in g

D iv is i o n

has

i ts

own

A c q u is i t io n C o u n c il , is t h a t r i g h t ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :
CHAIRPERSON :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

D o e s t h a t p r i n c i p l e a p p ly t o C F E T ’s a n d C F S T ’s a s

w e ll o r a r e t h o s e Tr a n s n e t w i d e b o d i e s ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

N o C h a ir t h e y a ls o a p p ly i n e a c h

O p e r a t in g D iv is io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:
10

S o th e r e is n ’ t , t h e r e w o u ld n ’t b e a

s t a n d in g Tr a n s n e t w i d e c o m m i t t e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , o k a y.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

B u t i t is c o n s ti t u t e d i n t h e v a r i o u s

o p e r a ti n g d iv i s i o n s a s th e n e e d a r is e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

O h s o w h e n I lo o k a t t h is s l i d e I m u s t j u s t b e a r i n

m i n d t h a t w h a t i t r e p r e s e n ts is i n r e l a ti o n t o e a c h O p e r a t in g D iv is io n .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To e a c h O p e r a t in g D iv is io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t i n r e l a t i o n t o . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

Overarching.

C H A I R P E R S O N : .. . Tr a n s n e t a s a w h o le .
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

Correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s M r Vo l m i n k y o u c a n p r o c e e d to

e x p l a i n th e n e x t i m p o r ta n t c o m m i t t e e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir t h e n t h e n e x t c o m m i t t e e , I h a v e
r e fe r r e d to e a r l ie r a lr e a d y, it is a s u b - c o m m i t te e o f E x c o , it i s r e f e r r e d

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t o a s t h e P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e , a n d i t w a s e s t a b li s h e d r e c e n t ly w it h
o u r r e c e n t d e l e g a t io n s o f a u th o r i ty fr a m e w o r k .

T h e y ty p ic a ll y h a v e

d e l e g a ti o n t o a d ju d ic a t e o n v e r y h i g h v a l u e t e n d e r s , I m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r
b e t w e e n R 7 0 0 m i ll io n a n d a B i l li o n a n d t h e y a r e e m p o w e r e d t o a w a r d
t e n d e r s , t h e y a r e e m p o w e r e d t o a p p r o v e t h e r e le a s e o f R F P ’s t o t h e
m a r k e t f o r t h a t v a lu e a n d v a r i o u s o t h e r d e l e g a ti o n s a r e g iv e n to t h i s
Procurement Committee as well.
C h a ir t h e n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON :
10

I’ m s o r r y, c a n I t a k e y o u b a c k t o t h e A c q u i s i t io n

C o u n c il o n t h is s l id e , y o u s e e w h e n t h e s l id e s a y s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r
e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e a w a r d o f a te n d e r is f a ir a n d l e g a l ly c o m p li a n t, i t
g iv e s t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t s o m e b o d y e l s e d o e s t h e a c t u a l a w a r d in g b u t
t h e y m u s t ju s t c h e c k t h a t t h a t h a s b e e n d o n e c o r r e c tly, w h e t h e r a s w h a t
y o u a r e s a y i n g is th e y a r e th e o n e s w h o d o t h e a c tu a l a w a r d i n g , b u t
o b v i o u s l y i n d o i n g th a t t h a t t h e y m u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y c o m p ly w i t h
a l l t h e l e g is la t io n a n d p o li c i e s a n d s o o n ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e

s a y in g . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t m e a n i n g t h a t I’ m a t t a c h i n g t o i t .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I u n d e r s t a n d , C h a ir w e u s e t h e w o r d
e n s u r i n g s o m e w h a t d e l ib e r a te ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

B e c a u s e th e Ac q u i s i ti o n C o u n c i ls

t h e y a r e t h e fi r s t g r o u p o f p e o p l e w h o m u s t e n s u r e t h a t w h e n a te n d e r
g e t s a w a r d e d t h a t i t c o m p l ie d w i th t h e le g is l a ti v e r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d i t’s

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
f a ir e tc e te r a .

Th e r e m a y b e o t h e r b o d i e s s u c h a s t h e H i g h Va l u e

Te n d e r R e v i e w C o m m i t t e e w h i c h I w i ll to u c h o n a li t tl e b i t la t e r o n , w h o
w i ll d o i n d e p e n d e n t a s s u r a n c e a n d I r e fe r t o t h e m s o r t o f a t t h e b o t t o m
o f t h e s li d e I w i ll c o m e to t h e m , b u t w h e n I s a y th a t t h e A c q u is i t io n
C o u n c il m u s t e n s u r e t h a t t h e a w a r d o f t e n d e r is f a ir w e s a y th a t
b e c a u s e w e w a n t t o i m p r e s s u p o n th e m t h a t i t th e ir r e s p o n s i b ili t y f ir s t
a n d fo r e m o s t t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e p r o c e s s f o l lo w e d is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( I n a u d i b l e – m i c r o p h o n e o ff)
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
10

N o I d o u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir, t h e y w il l

b e c o m e e v e n m u c h m o r e c le a r e r w h e n w e d e a l w i t h o th e r s l i d e s
b e c a u s e y e s , I u n d e r s ta n d th e q u e s t io n s , t h e y a r e r e l e v a n t.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

M r Vo l m i n k th e Pr o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t te e ,

y o u w e r e s ti ll d e a li n g w it h i t .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:
d e l e g a ti o n is f o r

Ye s I w a s s a y in g C h a ir t h a t th e i r

h i g h e r v a l u e t e n d e r s , t y p i c a ll y b e t w e e n R 7 0 0 m il li o n

a n d a Bi ll i o n a n d t h e y h a v e r e s p o n s i b ili t y f ir s t ly to a p p r o v e t h a t
Tr a n s n e t c a n i s s u e a t e n d e r t o t h e m a r k e t , a ls o t o a d ju d ic a t e o n
t e n d e r s w h ic h fa ll w i t h i n th e i r d e l e g a t io n R 7 0 0 m il li o n t o a B i lli o n , i e
20

t h e y f o r l a c k o f a b e t te r w o r d C h a ir t h e y a r e t h e A c q u is i t io n C o u n c i l f o r
t h o s e m e g a t r a n s a c t io n s , R 7 0 0 m il li o n a n d a b o v e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I s t h i s w h e r e o n e w o u l d lo c a t e t h o s e

tr a n s a c ti o n s s u c h a s t h e l o c o m o tiv e s ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

C h a i r t h e – t h is i s a v e r y r e c e n t

c r e a ti o n , s o t h is P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e w a s e s t a b l is h e d u n d e r t h e

Page 48 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

P o s t t o t h o s e t r a n s a c t io n s .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

P o s t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s .

S o t h is

C o m m i t t e e w o u l d n o t h a v e e x is t e d a t t h a t t i m e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , a n d t h e n th e n e x t o n e ?

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

The next one the letters are FIC,

t h is is th e Fi n a n c e a n d I n v e s t m e n t C o m m i t t e e , th e y a r e a s u b c o m m i t t e e th is is a s u b - c o m m i t t e e o f t h e B o a r d , C h a ir t h e y d o n o t
p e r f o r m a c t u a l . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I t’s p a g e 1 0 4 C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON : Sorry?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Page 104.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I w a s t h e r e b u t I w a s n ’ t s u r e th a t I w a s o n t h e
r ig h t p a g e y e s , y e s y o u m a y c o n ti n u e .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMIN K:

Ye s , I w a s r e f e r r in g t o th e Fi n a n c e

a n d I n v e s t m e n t C o m m i t t e e w h ic h is a s u b - c o m m i t t e e o f t h e B o a r d . N o w
C h a ir t h is B o d y p la y s r e a lly a n a s s u r a n c e r o l e f o r a l l tr a n s a c ti o n s th a t
a r e m e a n t t o b e m i g r a te d t o Ex c o , s o I w ill t e l l y o u i n a m o m e n t th a t
E x c o h a s d e le g a ti o n t o a p p r o v e te n d e r s a b o v e a B i ll io n , b u t t h e F I C o r
20

t h e F i n a n c e a n d I n v e s t m e n t C o m m i t te e r e a ll y i s a n a s s u r a n c e b o d y,
they

w o u l d w a n t to b e g iv e n t h e a s s u r a n c e th a t f o r th o s e v e r y b ig

t e n d e r s a b o v e a b i ll io n t h a t e v e r y t h in g is d o n e a s it i s s u p p o s e d t o b e
a n d th e y w o u l d w a n t t o h a v e th a t c o m f o r t t o s a y th a t b e f o r e t h i s g o e s to
E x c o t h a t is g o i n g t o b e t h e p o i n t i n t h e p r o c e s s w h e r e t h e F I C
e x p r e s s e s i ts s a ti s f a c t io n o r i t s c o m f o r t t h a t t h e p r o c e s s w a s d o n e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c o r r e c t ly, i t is a n i m p o r ta n t c h e c k p o i n t in t h e p r o c e s s f o r th e a w a r d o f
the mega tenders.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

T h e n e x t c o m m i t t e e th a t w e ’r e d e a l in g

with?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h e n e x t o n e C h a ir r e la t e s t o E x c o

a n d a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d E x c o i s t h e f o r la c k o f a b e t te r w o r d t h e
A c q u is i t io n C o u n c i l n o w f o r t h o s e t e n d e r s t h a t a r e a b o v e a b il li o n , t h e y
w i ll a p p r o v e t h e a p p r o a c h t o m a r k e t , i e t h e y w il l a p p r o v e t h a t th e
t e n d e r c a n b e r e l e a s e d t o th e m a r k e t , t h e y w i ll a ls o a d ju d i c a t e o n
10

tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d t h e y w il l c o n c l u d e c o n tr a c ts w i t h t h e w in n in g b i d d e r
f o r te n d e r s t h a t f a l l in t o t h a t b r a c k e t a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e t h e B o a r d , t h e
B o a r d d o e s n ’ t , u n d e r t h e n e w d e l e g a t i o n s o f a u th o r i ty t h e B o a r d w i ll n o t
e x e r c is e a n y d e l e g a t io n t o a w a r d te n d e r s o r t o a w a r d t h e – o r to
a p p r o v e t h e r e l e a s e o f t e n d e r s to th e m a r k e t , b u t o f c o u r s e b e i n g t h e
B o a r d t h e y a s s u m e fi n a l a c c o u n t a b il i ty f o r w h a te v e r h a p p e n s w i th i n t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s . A n d fr o m s li d e n u m b e r n in e , p a g e

1 0 5 . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u g e t t o t h a t o n t h a t s l i d e n u m b e r
20

e i g h t t h e r e is th a t a r r o w b e t w e e n t h e A c q u is i t io n C o u n c il a n d th e
Procurement Committee.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :
A c q u is i t io n

I t s u g g e s ts t h a t th i n g s th a t h a v e c o m e b e fo r e t h e

Committee

fr o m

th ere

move

C o m m i t t e e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

Page 50 of 208

onto

the

Procurement

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

I t i s n o t . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )

C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s n o t c o r r e c t?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

I don’t think that is meant to depict

n e c e s s a r i ly a p r o c e s s f l o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

I t h i n k i t ju s t s h o w s t h e v a r i o u s

b o d ie s t h a t a r e a p p o i n t e d w it h in Tr a n s n e t to p e r f o r m fu n c t i o n s a t
v a r io u s l e v e l s , b u t i t d o e s n ’ t a l w a y s h a p p e n th a t a n a w a r d f ir s t h a s to
go
10

th r o u g h

th e

A c q u is i ti o n

Council

b e fo r e

it

comes

to

the

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I t h i n k t h a t w o u ld c a u s e c o n fu s i o n b e c a u s e w h e n
y o u s e e a n a r r o w y o u s a y – i t t e lls y o u w h e r e t o g o , a n d i f th e r e ’s
a n o t h e r a r r o w y o u f o l lo w t h e a r r o w s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :
CHAIRPERSON :

Correct.

N o w I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t in r e g a r d to m a y b e t h e y

s h o u l d n ’ t b e t h e r e , I d o n ’ t k n o w, b e c a u s e a ls o fr o m C F S T th i n g s d o n ’ t
g o t o C F E T s tr a ig h t , b u t C F E T i s th e r e f o r w h e n a r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l
has gone out to the market and there are responses to it as I
u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o w e m i g h t h a v e t o j u s t r e fl e c t w h a t n e e d s t o b e

d o n e t o m a k e s u r e th a t o n e d o e s n ’ t g e t c o n fu s e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

W h a t I w i ll p r o p o s e t o M r Vo l m in k w e

c a n r e m o v e t h e a r r o w s C h a ir b e c a u s e w h e n y o u g o t o s l id e n u m b e r 1 4
it w i ll t e ll y o u p r o p e r ly a b o u t th e Pr o c u r e m e n t c y c l e a n d a ls o g i v e –

Page 51 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
s li d e n u m b e r 1 5 i t w i ll g iv e a b o u t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s , w i t h t h e
r e l e v a n t a r r o w s s h o w in g w h e r e d o e s o n e g o f r o m -

w h a t d i ffe r e n t

s t a g e s d o e s a t e n d e r h a v e t o g o u p u n t il a p p r o v a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

So here she was merely depicting those

c o m m i t t e e s w i t h o u t h a v i n g t o s u g g e s t t h a t C h a ir m u s t f o ll o w th e
arrows.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , s o m a y b e i f y o u r e m o v e t h e a r r o w s th e n w h a t o n e
s e e s i s d i ffe r e n t b o d i e s .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Bodies yes.

CHAIRPERSON : And what happens about those bodies and what they
a r e , a n d w h a t t h e i r f u n c ti o n s a r e o n e l o o k s a t y o u r e v i d e n c e , w h e r e a s if
t h e a r r o w s a r e t h e r e o n e s a y s t h e y a r e n ’ t t h e r e to d e c o r a t e t h in g s , th e y
a r e t h e r e fo r s o m e m e a n i n g , t h e y a r e t h e r e t o s a y s o m e th i n g m o v e s
fr o m o n e p o i n t t o t h e n e x t p o i n t b u t t h a t ’s n o t w h a t y o u m e a n t .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

Point taken yes.

CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

W e w il l a d j u s t i t a c c o r d i n g ly.

Mr

Vo l m i n k o n s li d e n u m b e r n in e y o u a r e d e a l in g w i th i s s u e s t h a t y o u h a v e
20

s u p e r f ic ia ll y t o u c h e d o n w h e n y o u w e r e d e b a ti n g t h e s e is s u e s o r w h e n
y o u ’r e c l a r if y i n g y o u r e v id e n c e t o th e C h a ir, c a n y o u p l e a s e e l a b o r a t e
o n t h o s e d e l e g a t io n s o f a u th o r i ty ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a ir s o w h a t w e s e e o n s l id e n i n e

a r e t h e t h e r e a r e th r e e a r e a s w it h in S u p p l y C h a in t h a t a r e a d d r e s s e d i n
t h e d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i t y fr a m e w o r k , it te ll s u s f ir s t ly w h o a r e t h e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p e r s o n s o r c o m m i t t e e s th a t m u s t a p p r o v e th a t a te n d e r c a n b e
r e l e a s e d , w e c a l l i t a p p r o v a l t o a p p r o a c h t h e m a r k e t. I h a v e d e a l t w it h
t h a t a t s o m e l e n g t h e a r l ie r, a n d t h e d e l e g a t io n s o f e v e r y o n e fr o m th e
C P O , E x c o m e m b e r s , P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t te e a n d E x c o t h e y a r e a l l
o u t l i n e d in t h e D e l e g a t io n s o f A u t h o r i ty Fr a m e w o r k .
T h e n e x t s e c t io n in t h e D e le g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty Fr a m e w o r k
c o v e r in g S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t r e l a t e s to b i d a d j u d ic a ti o n o r w h o
is e m p o w e r e d t o a w a r d a t e n d e r. I h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h a t t h e A c q u is i ti o n
C o u n c ils h a v e a u t h o r i ty u p to a c e r t a i n le v e l , t h e n a b o v e t h a t w e h a v e
10

t h e Pr o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t te e a n d a b o v e th o s e – a b o v e th e Pr o c u r e m e n t
C o m m i t t e e y o u h a v e E x c o t o a d j u d ic a te o n te n d e r s a b o v e a b il li o n . T h e
t h ir d a s p e c t o f t h e D e l e g a t i o n o f A u th o r it y F r a m e w o r k d e a ls w it h w h o
h a s p o w e r t o s i g n o ff a c o n tr a c t , s o i t h a s g o n e t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s , i t
h a s b e e n a d j u d ic a te d a n d a w a r d e d b u t n o t a n y o n e c a n s ig n t h e
c o n tr a c t, s o a g a i n i t s t i p u la t e s fo r e x a m p l e t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r o f a n
e n d u s e r f u n c ti o n h a s d e l e g a t io n s s a y u p t o R 3 0 0 m il li o n , E x c o m e m b e r
between R300 and R700, Procurement Committee members higher
d e l e g a ti o n s a n d e v e n E x c o m e m b e r s a b o v e a b i ll io n .
N o w C h a ir I w a n t t o p e r h a p s m e n ti o n u n d e r t h is s e c t i o n

20

d e a li n g w i t h c o n tr a c t a w a r d a n d s i g n o ff , a l t h o u g h w e g iv e d e le g a t i o n s
f o r i n d iv id u a l s t o s ig n o ff a c o n tr a c t t h e y c a n ’ t j u m p th e g u n , th e y m u s t
w a i t f o r a t e n d e r p r o c e s s t o b e c o m p l e te d t o r u n i t s c o u r s e a n d i t m a y
s o u n d lik e a n o b v i o u s p o in t b u t I w il l te ll y o u C h a i r a t a la t e r s t a g e i n
m y e v i d e n c e t h a t f o r e x a m p l e w i t h Mc K i n s e y c o n t r a c t, o r c e r t a i n o f t h e
M c K in s e y c o n tr a c t s t h a t c o n tr a c ts o r le t t e r s o f a w a r d w e r e is s u e d a n d

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
y e t th e te n d e r p r o c e s s w a s s t il l u n d e r w a y, a n d th a t is a c le a r b r e a c h
a n d s o i t is q u i te i m p o r t a n t t h a t e v e n th o u g h p e o p l e w i t h d e l e g a t io n t o
s ig n o ff c o n tr a c ts t h a t t h e y a r e v e s t e d w it h th a t d e le g a ti o n t h a t it is
i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e y o n l y e x e r c is e th a t d e l e g a t io n a f t e r a d ju d ic a t i o n h a s
happened.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w e – I g u e s s w e w i ll d e a l m o r e w i t h t h a t k i n d o f
s i tu a ti o n w h e n y o u g i v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t i t , b u t it s e e m s u n li k e ly t h a t a
p e r s o n w h o s e r o l e in a t e n d e r is t h e s ig n in g o ff , o f th e c o n tr a c t
10

w o u ld n ’ t k n o w t h a t t h e p r o c e s s h a s n ’ t r e a c h e d h i m o r h e r b e c a u s e I
g u e s s t h a t h e o r s h e w o u l d k n o w t h a t t h in g s c o m e t o m e w h e n t h e y
h a v e b e e n to A , B , C , D a n d a ll o f t h o s e p e o p l e h a v e d o n e w h a t t h e y
a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o th e n I c o m e in .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a i r t h a t is e x a c t ly r ig h t , w h o e v e r

e x e r c is e s d e le g a t i o n o f a u th o r it y t o c o n c l u d e a c o n tr a c t t h e y n o r m a l l y
fir s t r e c e iv e a r e s o l u ti o n fr o m t h e A d j u d i c a ti o n C o m m i t t e e t o s a y w e
h a v e a w a r d e d t h e c o n tr a c t , a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r, y o u c a n n o w p r o c e e d
t o c o n c l u d e th e c o n t r a c t , s o i t is a c l e a r b r e a c h t o s i m p ly ju m p t h e g u n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I w i ll d e a l w i th t h e m i n d e t a il i n d u e

c o u r s e . I f y o u g o t o s l id e n u m b e r 1 0 y o u a r e g i v i n g a v e r y fu n d a m e n t a l
c o m p a r is o n b e t w e e n 2 0 1 6 Tr a n s n e t S C M a n d t h e D O A’s a s c o m p a r e d t o
the 2019 and could you please take us through them because they are
q u i te i m p o r ta n t a n d r e l e v a n t t o t h e is s u e s t o b e c a n v a s s e d l a t e r.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W h a t I s a y o n t h i s

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
s li d e a s I d r a w a c o m p a r is o n b e tw e e n w h a t t h e c u r r e n t D O A’s r e q u ir e
a n d w h a t th e p r e v i o u s D O A’s .. .( i n te r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e a c r o n y m s , I h a v e t o g o to p a g e 1 2 4 to c h e c k .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Oh m y apologies, no, no Chair it

s t a n d s f o r D e l e g a ti o n o f A u t h o r it y.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja, no I have checked.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

M y a p o l o g ie s , Tr a n s n e t is f u l l o f

a c r o n y m s a n d p l e a s e ju s t r e m i n d m e i f y o u h e a r s o m e t h in g th a t I s a y
t h a t y o u ’r e n o t fa m i li a r w i t h .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 2 4 , I w i ll g o t o p a g e 1 2 4 , u n le s s i t’s n o t t h e r e , o k a y
y o u m a y p r o c e e d , D O A’s a r e D e l e g a ti o n s o f A u t h o r i ty y e s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

S o C h a ir w h a t i t

in d i c a t e s i s t h a t t h e – h o w t h i n g s h a v e c h a n g e d b e t w e e n 2 0 1 6 a n d
2 0 1 9 , I d o n ’ t d e a l w i t h a ll a s p e c ts o f t h e D O A’s , b u t I h i g h li g h t a fe w.
T h e f ir s t is t h a t t h e B o a r d a n d a s u b - c o m m i t te e o f th e B o a r d c a l le d t h e
A D C , w h i c h s t a n d s fo r t h e A d ju d ic a t i o n a n d D is p o s a l C o m m i t t e e , i t w a s
p r e v i o u s ly c a l le d th e B A D C B o a r d A c q u is it i o n a n d D i s p o s a l C o m m i t t e e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , A c q u is i ti o n

and

D is p o s a l

Committee.
20

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Ye s , t h e B g o t d r o p p e d a t a c e r t a i n

p o i n t a n d it w a s s i m p ly c a ll e d t h e A D C , b u t i n 2 0 1 6 th e B o a r d a n d t h e
A D C h a d d e l e g a ti o n t o m a k e v a r io u s p r o c u r e m e n t d e c i s i o n s , s o th e y
w e r e g iv e n d e l e g a t io n t o a p p r o v e c o n f in e m e n ts , to a p p r o v e t h e a w a r d
o f t e n d e r s , to a s s i g n c o n tr a c t s e tc e t e r a , a n d I m a k e t h e p o in t t h a t
u n d e r t h e 2 0 1 9 d e l e g a ti o n s th e c u r r e n t B o a r d i s n o t in v o lv e d in

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p r o c u r e m e n t d e c is io n s p e r s e ie m a k i n g t e n d e r a w a r d s .

I have

in d i c a t e d C h a ir t h a t th o s e f u n c t io n s h a v e n o w b e e n d e le g a te d t o e i th e r
a s u b - c o m m i t t e e o f t h e B o a r d c a ll e d th e P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e , o r f o r
t e n d e r s a b o v e a b il li o n to E x c o w i t h F I C b e i n g th e s u b - c o m m i t t e e
performing that oversight or assurance role.
ADV PHILLIP

MOKOENA

SC :

Why

was

it

necessary

to

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON :

I’ m s o r r y M r M o k o e n a w e s ta r t e d a t n i n e , s o I d o n ’ t

t h i n k w e s h o u l d w a i t u n ti l q u a r t e r p a s t e le v e n f o r t h e t e a b r e a k , m a y b e
10

w e s h o u ld ta k e th e t e a b r e a k a t q u a r t e r t o e le v e n , fr o m q u a r t e r t o
e l e v e n t o e l e v e n o ’ c l o c k . D o e s t h a t s o u n d fi n e , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I w a n t e d t o k n o w, y o u m e n t io n e d a b o u t

t h is , y o u r e f e r r e d t o t h e s e c h a n g e s w h y w a s it c r i tic a l o r c r u c i a l fo r
Tr a n s n e t t o e ffe c t t h e s e c h a n g e s , i f y o u lo o k a t 2 0 1 6 a n d 2 0 1 9
d e l e g a ti o n s o f a u t h o r i ty, w h e r e b y n o w w h e n y o u l o o k a t 2 0 1 9 t h e B o a r d
it ’s n o t lo n g e r i n v o l v e d i n p r o c u r e m e n t d e c is i o n s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Ye s , C h a ir I t h i n k t h a t t h e B o a r d

w o u ld p r o b a b ly b e a b le to e x p l a i n t h e u n d e r l y i n g r a ti o n a l e in m o r e
d e t a i l , b u t in e s s e n c e t h e r e h a v e b e e n p r o n o u n c e m e n ts m a d e a t
20

v a r io u s l e v e l s , p a r ti c u l a r in t h e S t a te o f t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s a n d a l s o
t h e s p e e c h e s m a d e b y t h e M in is t e r o f Fi n a n c e a n d s o o n , th a t t h e
B o a r d s o f S O C s h o u ld n o t b e p l a y i n g a r o l e i n p r o c u r e m e n t d e c is i o n s , I
h a v e n o d o u b t th a t th a t in f lu e n c e d t h e d e c i s i o n t o d e l e g a t e th o s e
c r i ti c a l p r o c u r e m e n t r o le s t o m a n a g e m e n t w it h th e B o a r d p e r f o r m i n g
that important oversight role.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m s u r e t h a t th a t ’s t h e r e a s o n , i t’s m a n a g e m e n t
w h ic h m u s t m a k e th e s e d e c is i o n s a n d t h e B o a r d m u s t p l a y t h e
o v e r s ig h t r o l e b e c a u s e t h e y c a n ’ t p l a y o v e r s ig h t r o l e o v e r th e m s e lv e s .
T h e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o m u s t m a k e d e c is i o n s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Correct.

Ta k e u s t h r o u g h o t h e r c h a n g e s .

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

C h a ir t h e n w h a t w e s a w i n 2 0 1 6 a n d

e v e n i n e a r l ie r d e le g a ti o n s i s w h a t I c a n o n ly r e f e r t o a s s o m e t h i n g o f
a n a b e r r a ti o n , t h e r e w e r e c e r ta in i n d iv i d u a ls w h o w e r e g r a n t e d th e
10

power to award tenders.

N o w C h a ir a t e n d e r is s u p p o s e d t o b e

a w a r d e d b y a n A c q u is it i o n C o u n c i l , i t ’s a m u l ti - d i s c i p li n a r y b o d y m a d e
u p o f l e g a l , c o m p l ia n c e , c o m m e r c i a l , fi n a n c e , r i s k a n d c o m p li a n c e
e tc e t e r a , b u t th e w a y t h e s e d e l e g a t i o n s r e a d i n 2 0 1 6 a n d e v e n e a r li e r
is t h a t – w e l l i f y o u l o o k a t t h e 2 0 1 5 , t h e 2 0 1 6 d e le g a ti o n s t h e s e
a c q u is i ti o n c o u n c il s h a d d e l e g a ti o n u p t o R 5 0 m il li o n .

Then above

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t 1 5 o r 5 0 ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

T h a t’s 5 0 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : 5 0 , o k a y R 5 0 m il li o n .
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

R 5 0 m il li o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t h e n t h e C h ie f S u p p l y C h a i n

O ff ic e r w a s g i v e n th e p o w e r o f a n A c q u i s i t i o n C o u n c il u p t o R 5 0 0 m i ll i o n
s o it d id n o t s e r v e b e f o r e a n Ac q u i s i ti o n C o u n c il t o a p p r o v e th e a w a r d
o f t h e t e n d e r, i t w e n t t o a C h i e f S u p p l y C h a in O ffi c e r, t h e n C h a i r f o r

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
h i g h e r v a lu e s w e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t ’s q u i t e s tr a n g e , m a y b e th a t ’s w h y y o u s a i d i t
w a s a n a b e r r a ti o n f o r a te n d e r w h o s e v a lu e is R 5 0 m il li o n y o u n e e d e d a
n u m b e r o f p e o p l e t o s i t in a n A c q u is i ti o n C o u n c il t o m a k e t h e d e c is io n ,
b u t f o r a t e n d e r th a t i s R 5 0 0 m i ll io n , m u c h m o r e , y o u n e e d o n ly o n e
person to make a decision?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

C h a ir i t g e ts s tr a n g e r t h a n t h a t, fo r

u p t o R 7 5 0 m i ll io n t h a t c o u l d g o t o t h e C h i e f O p e r a t in g O ff ic e r, o r th e –
s o m e o th e r i n d iv i d u a ls , t h e y w e r e m e n ti o n e d in t h e d e l e g a t i o n o f
10

a u t h o r i ty fr a m e w o r k , fo r u p to a b il li o n it c o u l d b e t h e C h ie f F i n a n c i a l
O ff ic e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

M a k i n g t h e d e c is i o n a l o n e ?

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Ye s , a c t in g a s t h e A c q u is i ti o n

C o u n c il .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : ( I n a u d i b l e – m i c r o p h o n e o ff)
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
CHAIRPERSON :

C h a ir y o u r m ic i s o ff .

O h , I’ m s o r r y, t h e o n e w h o w a s g iv e n a u t h o r i ty to

m a k e d e c is i o n s i n r e l a ti o n to a t e n d e r t h a t w a s a b o v e R 5 0 m i ll io n b u t
20

n o t a b o v e R 5 0 0 m il li o n w a s t h e C h i e f – d i d y o u s a y C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

C h i e f S u p p ly C h a i n O ffi c e r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : S u p p ly C h a in O ff ic e r.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n i f i t w a s a b o v e t h a t i t w e n t to w h o m ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e n i t w e n t t o t h e C h ie f O p e r a ti n g

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
O ff ic e r.
CHAIRPERSON : The COO?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : U p to 7 5 0 .
CHAIRPERSON : Up to 750.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
CHAIRPERSON : And there too it was just him or her alone making the
d e c is i o n ?
10

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

I n t e r m s o f t h e D e le g a ti o n o f

A u t h o r i ty t h a t p e r s o n w a s t h e A d j u d ic a ti o n C o m m i t t e e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Wa s th a t p e r s o n i n t h e d e l e g a ti o n s s a id t o b e s o t o

s p e a k m a k i n g t h o s e d e c is i o n s a s t h e A c q u is it i o n C o u n c i l o r i t – th e
d e l e g a ti o n s i m p ly s a i d h e o r s h e w a s th e o n e t o m a k e t h e d e c is i o n s ,
w h e n y o u r e f e r t o – w h e n y o u s a y h e o r s h e w a s t h e Ac q u is i ti o n C o u n c i l
t h a t ’s w h a t y o u s a y b e c a u s e h e o r s h e w a s p e r fo r m i n g t h e d u ti e s
s i m il a r to th o s e o f a n A c q u is i ti o n C o u n c il , s o in o th e r w o r d s I’ m a s k i n g
w h e t h e r o n e c a n f in d s o m e w h e r e , a

d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s s a y in g

s o m e t h i n g li k e f o r p u r p o s e s o f a t e n d e r th a t is b e tw e e n R 5 0 0 m i ll io n a n d
20

R 7 0 0 o r u p t o R 7 5 0 m il li o n th e p e r s o n o c c u p y i n g th is p o s i t io n s h a l l b e
d e e m e d to b e t h e A c q u is it i o n C o u n c il ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t h e w a y i t w a s w r i t te n is i t i s

u n d e r t h e h e a d in g in t h e d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty fr a m e w o r k w h ic h I w i ll
b e h a p p y t o m a k e a v a il a b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

It i s u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g c a l l e d

p r o c e s s a p p r o v a l . I m e n t i o n e d e a r l ie r C h a ir th a t t h e d e le g a ti o n s d e a l
w i t h a p p r o a c h in g t h e m a r k e t , b i d a d ju d ic a t io n a n d c o n tr a c t a w a r d . T h is
c o n c e p t o f p r o c e s s a p p r o v a l fa lls u n d e r b id a d j u d ic a ti o n b e c a u s e it is
in t h e p r o c e s s o f b id a d j u d i c a t io n t h a t t h e p e r s o n w i th d e l e g a t io n m u s t
s a y I a m h a p p y w i t h t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o ll o w e d , a n d I’ v e g o t n o
d i ff ic u l ty s o w h e n y o u tu r n to th e s e c ti o n i n t h e D O A fr a m e w o r k d e a l i n g
w i t h p r o c e s s a p p r o v a l i t t e l ls u s t h a t th e f ir s t le v e l is t h e Ac q u i s i ti o n
C o u n c ils b u t t h e y o n l y h a v e R 5 0 m ill i o n a n d th e n i t m e n t io n s a l l t h e
10

o th e r s , a n d I t h i n k t h e r e ’s a fo o t n o t e a t th e b o t t o m w h i c h e x p l a i n s w h a t
t h is f u n c ti o n e n t a ils .
C h a ir t h e r e ’s n o d o u b t i n my m i n d t h a t th e fu n c t io n s o f a n – o f
t e n d e r a d j u d i c a t io n o r t e n d e r a w a r d w e r e d e l e g a t e d t o i n d iv i d u a l s
r a th e r t h a n to p r o p e r – p r o p e r l y c o n s t i tu t e d a c q u i s i t io n c o u n c il s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t w h a t – w h a t t h a t – b u t w h a t t h a t m e a n s i s s i m p ly

t h a t th e h ig h e r t h e v a l u e th e l e s s t h e n u m b e r o f p e o p le in v o lv e d in
making the decisions.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t I th in k w o u l d b e th e i m p li c a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t w o u ld b e t h e …
20

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

U n ti l it g o t t o – u n d e r t h e 2 0 1 6

d e l e g a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I t h i n k w h e n th e v a lu e s w e r e a b o v e 3
b i ll io n i t w o u l d s e r v e b e f o r e th e A D C t h e s u b c o m m i t t e e o f t h e b o a r d
a n d I th i n k a b o v e 3 b i ll i o n to th e b o a r d it s e l f . S o t h e r e w o u ld b e p o in t

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
w h e n th e h i g h e s t v a l u e s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

W o u ld s e r v e b e f o r e c o m m i t t e e s b u t

t h e r e i s a w h o le r a n g e o f v a l u e s o f te n d e r s b e t w e e n 5 0 a n d u p t o 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B i ll io n .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

B i ll i o n w h i c h s e r v e s w h e r e th e

a d j u d ic a to r y p r o c e s s c o u l d b e c a r r i e d o u t b y i n d i v i d u a ls .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o w C h a ir I s h o u ld p e r h a p s a d d
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t w h a t w e s o u g h t to d o t o a v o i d
t h e h u g e r is k in v o lv e d e n tr u s ti n g t e n d e r a d j u d ic a ti o n to a n i n d iv id u a l is
w e w r o t e c e r ta i n r u l e s i n th e – w h a t is c a l l e d th e P P M t h e P r o c u r e m e n t
P r o c e d u r e s M a n u a l w h i c h s o u g h t t o m i t i g a t e t h is – th e s i t u a t i o n a n d and…
CHAIRPERSON : When you say we who?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Well the governance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n i t o h y e s o k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s . S o w e s t a t e d t h e r e t h a t b e fo r e

20

a t e n d e r c a n s e r v e s b e f o r e w h a t w e r e f e r to a s t h e o n e m a n o r o n e
person

a c q u i s i t io n

c o u n c i ls

they

had

to serve

b e fo r e

the

a c q u is i ti o n c o u n c il o f w h a t e v e r o p e r a t in g d iv i s i o n it c o m e s fr o m .

m a in
So

e v e n t h o u g h t h e y o n ly h a v e p o w e r u p t o 5 0 t o a w a r d w e s a id th e y h a v e
g o t t o l o o k a t t h e t r a n s a c t i o n a n d r e c o m m e n d i f t h e y a r e h a p p y w i th it .
O n c e i t p a s s e s t h a t m a in a c q u is i t io n c o u n c il i t t h e n m u s t s e r v e b e f o r e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
the head of risk – the head of legal governance.

S o in e ffe c t w e

c o n s ti t u te d a s o r t o f a v i r t u a l a c q u is i t i o n c o u n c il t o c h e c k o n th e
tr a n s a c ti o n s b e f o r e i t s e r v e d b e f o r e th e s e in d i v i d u a ls .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC : But were those rules always followed? I
m e a n t h e r e m ig h t b e t h e r u le s a n d y o u k n o w a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t M r
Vo l m i n k

that

there

are

c o n tr a c t s

which

were

awarded

without

governance.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

C o u n c il b e in g i n v o l v e d .

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir n o w a g a i n w h a t is w r i tt e n a n d
w h a t is f o l lo w e d a r e n o t a l w a y s t h e s a m e th in g a n d w e w il l d e a l w i t h
that later on.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t th e r u l e s th a t y o u h a v e ju s t t o l d m e a b o u t th a t

c a m e fr o m y o u r u n i t, t h e g o v e r n a n c e u n i t w e r e t h e y a r e a c ti o n t o t h e s e
d e l e g a ti o n s t h a t y o u h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t w h ic h y o u s a i d a p p e a r e d t o b e
a p p a r i t io n s o r w o u l d th e y c o m e – w e r e th e y t h e r e w h e n t h e s e
d e l e g a ti o n s w e r e m a d e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o – C h a ir th e y w e r e a s a r e s u l t o f
t h e s e d e l e g a ti o n s b e c a u s e …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e u n i t w a s d e e p ly
CHAIRPERSON : Concerned.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Concerned.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d u n c o m f o r ta b le .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I t i s – i t is u n h e a r d o f in p u b l ic

sector procurement. Where you have a three committee system, a bid
s p e c i f ic a ti o n

c o m m i t te e ,

a

bid

e v a l u a t io n

committee

and

a

bid

a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d a s I s a y t h is w a s n o t s o m e th i n g
w h ic h s a t w e l l w i th t h e u n i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h e b o d i e s t h a t y o u h a v e t a lk e d – y o u h a v e t o l d
10

m e a b o u t t h e in c l u d i n g t h e a c q u is it i o n c o u n c i l a n d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t a n d
t h e C F E T a n d C F S T a r e th o s e b o d i e s p r o v i d e d fo r i n p o l ic ie s a n d
p r o c e d u r e s m a n u a ls – p o li c i e s a n d p r o c e d u r e m a n u a ls r e l a ti n g t o
p r o c u r e m e n t w i th i n Tr a n s n e t o r a r e t h e y c o n ta in e d in s o m e t h i n g o f a
h i g h e r l e g a l s ta t u s th a n t h a t s u c h a s r e g u l a ti o n s u n d e r s o m e l e g is la t io n
r e l a ti n g t o Tr a n s n e t ?

W h a t k i n d o f i n s tr u m e n t e s t a b li s h e s th o s e

b o d ie s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir w i t h i n th e – w it h in t h e Tr a n s n e t
e n v ir o n m e n t t h a t is d e a l t w i th in t e r m s o f t h e i n te r n a l p o li c i e s w h ic h
Tr a n s n e t h a s p u t in p l a c e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s o f c o u r s e

is s u e d
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C e r t a i n p r e s c r i p t s o r g u i d e li n e s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

W h ic h a p p li e s l a r g e ly i n t h e p u b l ic

s e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e s t a t e d e p a r t m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a n d s o o n

a n d s o fo r t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d w e c e r ta i n ly d r a w fr o m th a t b u t
10

t h e d e t a il o f h o w th e s e c o m m i t t e e s th e C F S T, t h e C F E T, t h e A c q u is i t io n
C o u n c il a n d s o o n h o w t h o s e c o m m i t t e e s a r e to b e c o n d u c t e d t h a t i s
d e a lt w i t h i n o u r in t e r n a l
C H A I R P E R S O N : P o li c i e s a n d d o c u m e n ts ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : But when you –
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

But when you refer to the three stage

p r o c e s s o f t h e b id e v a l u a t io n s p e c if ic a ti o n a n d a d j u d ic a ti o n th o s e a r e
20

n o t m e r e l y r u l e s b u t t h o s e a r e d e a l t w i t h i n t e r m s o f t h e l e g i s l a ti o n , a m
I correct?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t – t h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

D e s p i t e t h a t b u t y o u s t il l h a d th o s e

s in g le i n d iv id u a l s w i t h a u t h o r i ty t o – c a n g r a n t t e n d e r s o f th a t p a r t ic u l a r
[i n d is t in c t] w it h in Tr a n s n e t ?

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d th e d e le g a ti o n s t h a t y o u t o l d u s a b o u t a fe w

m i n u t e s a g o t h e y c a m e fr o m t h e b o a r d o r
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id t h e y c o m e f r o m [ i n d i s t in c t ] .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : No, no they come from the board.
CHAIRPERSON : From the board.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir t h e l a s t t h in g I w a n t t o m e n t i o n
o n t h i s s l id e u n le s s th e r e i s a n y t h i n g
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : No slide number 10.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

Sl i d e n u m b e r 1 0 y e s .

Is t h a t t h e r e

w a s a ls o p r o v is i o n m a d e i n t h e 2 0 1 6 d e l e g a ti o n s f o r – w e l l fo r
c o n fi n e m e n ts b u t t h e n a l s o f o r w h a t w a s r e f e r r e d t o a s c o n fi d e n t ia l
c o n fi n e m e n ts . N o w …
CHAIRPERSON : What was that?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A c o n f i n e m e n t in i ts e lf is a d e v i a t i o n
fr o m a n o p e n b i d d i n g p r o c e s s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

B u t a c o n f id e n ti a l c o n f in e m e n t is

s o m e t h i n g t h a t c o u l d g o s tr a ig h t t o t h e G C E w i th o u t a n y o t h e r p e r s o n
o r b o d y r e v ie w in g th e c o n f i n e m e n t . N o w a n o r m a l c o n fi n e m e n t C h a ir
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

W o u l d r e q u ir e m u l ti p le l e v e ls o f

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
r e v ie w w i t h i n Tr a n s n e t. S o if y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a n o r m a l c o n fi n e m e n t i s s u b je c t t o tr a n s p a r e n c y ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
CHAIRPERSON :

I s th a t r i g h t?

B u t a c o n fi d e n ti a l c o n f in e m e n t s e e m s

n o t t o h a v e b e e n s u b je c t t o t h e s a m e tr a n s p a r e n c y, is th a t r i g h t?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is – th a t i s a b s o l u te ly c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : And you then have…
CHAIRPERSON :
10

A n d n o t s u b je c t t o v a r i o u s c h e c k s a n d – c h e c k s b y

d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e to s e e i f i t is fi n e , it ju s t g o e s s tr a i g h t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Th e n o r ma l c o n fi n e m e n t. Ye s . Th e
n o r m a l c o n fi n e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

Yo u h a v e to g o t o t h e a c q u is i t io n

council.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

F ir s tl y i t m u s t c o m e fr o m t h e

o p e r a ti n g d iv i s i o n i ts e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : G r o u p o r t h e c o r p o r a t e c e n tr e c a n n o t
d e c i d e w e g o in g to – w e n e e d a c o n fi n e m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MR PET ER STEPHEN VOL MINK : If it does not come from the end user
f u n c t i o n o r th e o p e r a ti n g d iv i s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ev e n t h e r e i t m u s t p a s s th e C P O .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I t m u s t p a s s t h e O D C C E O . It m u s t
s e r v e b e f o r e th e a c q u is i t io n c o m m i t t e e .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h o m u s t s a y th a t t h e y a r e s a tis f ie d
w i t h i t b e f o r e it c o m e s t o g r o u p w h e r e i t g e ts r e v i e w e d b y t h e C P O a n d
v a r io u s o t h e r – th e g r o u p c h i e f s u p p l ie r c h a i n o ffic e r a n d v a r i o u s o t h e r
b o d ie s .
10

CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

A n d t h a t is t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e

c o n fi n e m e n ts a r e n o t a b u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f c o u r s e o n e w a y i n w h i c h t h o s e v a r i o u s s ta g e s
a n d v a r i o u s s t e p s p r o t e c t p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e v e n w it h a
c o n fi n e m e n t y o u k n o w is th a t i f o n e p e r s o n m a k e s a m is t a k e a n d d o e s
n o t p ic k u p s o m e t h in g w r o n g i t is l ik e l y t h a t s o m e b o d y e ls e w il l p i c k i t
u p ? A n d a ls o i t m e a n s th a t i f s o m e b o d y c o r r u p t s o n e p e r s o n t h a t m i g h t
n o t w o r k b e c a u s e o t h e r s w h o a r e n o t c o r r u p te d w i ll p ic k th i n g s u p . B u t
if y o u h a v e o n l y o n e p e r s o n m a k i n g th e d e c is io n i f h e o r s h e m a k e s t h e
20

m is t a k e s t h a t i s i t . I f h e o r s h e is c o r r u p te d t h a t is it . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir t h a t is e x a c tly r i g h t. T h e – t o
p u t i t i n l a y m e n ’s te r m s w e w a n t e d a s m a n y p a i r s o f e y e s o n a n y
c o n fi n e m e n t a s w e c o u l d g e t q u i te fr a n k l y.
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d – b u t i f y o u c a l l i t a c o n f id e n t i a l

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c o n fi n e m e n t
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h e n i t s a i ls s tr a ig h t fr o m t h e O D

C E O s tr a ig h t to t h e G C E .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e r e i s n o r e v i e w t h a t t a k e s p la c e

a n d I – th e r e a s o n I m e n ti o n t h is C h a i r is t h a t I w il l t e l l y o u in th e
c o u r s e o f m y e v id e n c e th a t c e r t a in o f t h e M c K in s e y c o n fi n e m e n ts w e r e
a p p r o v e d a s c o n fi d e n t ia l c o n f in e m e n ts .
10

T h e y d id n o t g o t h r o u g h th e

n o r m a l c o n fi n e m e n t p r o c e s s t h a t o n e w o u l d e x p e c t .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t t h i s c o n c e p t o f c o n fi d e n ti a l – o f a c o n fi d e n t ia l

c o n fi n e m e n t w a s t h a t f ir s t p u t i n p o l ic i e s b e f o r e i t w a s i m p le m e n t e d o r
d i d th a t j u s t c o m e fr o m s o m e d e le g a ti o n s ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : No it was…
CHAIRPERSON : Where did it come from?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

I t w a s c o n t a in e d in t h e – it w a s

c o n ta in e d i n th e d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty fr a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s n e v e r p a r t o f a n y p o li c y ?
MR PET ER ST EPHEN VOL MINK : It was then – then had to be brought
20

in t o p o l ic y a s w e l l.
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t i ts o r ig i n is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s th e d e l e g a ti o n .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

Is t h a t i t w a s i n t h e d e l e g a t io n o f

a u t h o r i ty fr a m e s .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON :

S o t h e d e l e g a ti o n w a s t a lk in g a b o u t s o m e t h i n g t h a t

w a s u n k n o w n t o t h e p o l ic ie s o f Tr a n s n e t a t th e ti m e t h e d e l e g a t io n w a s
made?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : At the time.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t h e n i t h a d to b e i n c o r p o r a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n e x p o s f a c to
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s p u t i n t h e p o lic ie s .
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t t h e p o i n t I w a n t e d t o m a k e is t h a t
u n d e r th e 2 0 1 9 d e l e g a t i o n t h e r e is n o
CHAIRPERSON : Such things.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

S u c h t h in g a s a c o n f id e n ti a l

c o n fi n e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s if y o u g o – y o u a l l o w m e M r Vo l m i n k
y o u c a n p a s s t h r o u g h s li d e 11 , 1 2 a n d 1 3 b e c a u s e t h o s e w il l b e
r e p e a ti n g a l m o s t t h e e v id e n c e th a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y c a n v a s s e d w i t h m e
t h is m o r n in g . W e c a n m o v e s t r a ig h t to s li d e n u m b e r 1 4 o n p a g e 11 0 .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s . C h a ir w h a t t h i s s li d e d e p i c t s i s
t h e p r o c u r e m e n t – t h e ty p ic a l p r o c u r e m e n t c y c l e th a t g e ts fo ll o w e d
w i t h i n Tr a n s n e t a n d I w o u ld i m a g i n e a n y o t h e r p u b l ic e n t i ty a s w e l l .
T h e – th is is a s li d e th a t d e a ls w i th h o w t h e – t h e P P M is s tr u c tu r e d
a n d I m a k e t h e p o i n t in m y s ta t e m e n t t h a t th e P P M f o ll o w s t h e s e
v a r io u s s ta g e s i n th e p r o c u r e m e n t c y c l e . S o p e r h a p s w e c o u ld j u s t g o

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h r o u g h i t b r i e f ly.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Ja.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : And if need be…
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : L a te r o n w e w i ll d e a l w i t h t h e d e a l s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W e w il l d e a l w it h i t in m o r e d e t a i l .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

S o i t d e p ic ts C h a ir th a t t h e r e a r e

r e a l ly j u s t th r e e s t a g e s t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s .

T h e f ir s t i s a

p l a n n in g s t a g e w h ic h w e c a ll s t a g e 1 o n t h e s l id e . Th e s e c o n d is th e
10

a c t u a l p r o c u r e m e n t s t a g e w h e r e w e h a v e g o t to g o o u t a n d b u y a n d t h e
t h ir d i s t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n s t a g e w h e r e t h e c o n tr a c t i s n o w i n p l a c e
a n d th e c o n tr a c t m u s t b e i m p l e m e n t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p la n n i n g s ta g e I a m s o r r y w o u l d t a k e p la c e i n th e
end user department?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ty p ic a lly y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

C h a ir s o i n th e p l a n n i n g s ta g e w e

s a y th a t t h e p r o c e s s u s u a l ly s ta r t s w i t h w h a t i s c a ll e d d e m a n d p l a n n i n g
a n d m a n a g e m e n t . T h i s i s w h e r e b u s i n e s s r e q u ir e m e n t s a r e a r t ic u l a te d ,
20

it m u s t b e a s s e s s e d , i t m u s t b e v a li d a t e d , i t m u s t b e c h e c k e d a g a i n s t
b u d g e t a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r t h a n d o n c e i t p a s s e s th a t s t a g e i t r e a c h e s
w h a t i s c a ll e d th e p r o c u r e m e n t s tr a t e g y a n d p r o c u r e m e n t m e c h a n is m . I
r e fe r r e d e a r li e r t o t h e C F S T t h a t g r o u p o f p e o p le w h o h a v e t o s i t a n d
w r i t e t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s tr a t e g y a n d w r i t e t h e – a n d w r i te t h e R F P w h ic h
o f c o u r s e i s s t e p 3 w h ic h is b i d p r e p a r a ti o n e s s e n ti a l ly w r it i n g t h e R F P.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
T h e n w e r e a c h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s ta g e w h e r e w e h a v e b i d s .
w h e r e b id s a r e is s u e d a n d r e c e i v e d a n d o p e n e d .
stage

of

b id

a d j u d ic a ti o n

e v a lu a ti o n ,
of

i m p l e m e n ta t io n

bids,
stage

step

c o n tr a c t
w h ic h

is

5.

W e th e n g e t t o t h e

S h o r t li s ti n g

award

and

c o n tr a c t

T h i s is

then

and
we

management,

n e g o ti a ti o n ,
reach

the

c o n t in u o u s

i m p r o v e m e n t a n d le s s o n s l e a r n e d . S o I m e n t io n t h a t b e c a u s e t h e P P M
is l a r g e ly s tr u c t u r e d a r o u n d th e ty p i c a l p r o c u r e m e n t c y c l e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w t h e r e is a s l id e t h a t – w h i c h
y o u a r e g o i n g t o s p e n d m u c h m o r e t i m e o n it is s l id e n u m b e r 1 6 . C h a ir
10

I s e e t h a t i t i s tw o m i n u te s b e f o r e th e p r o p o s e d t e a a d jo u r n m e n t c o u l d
w e – i s i t a p p r o p r i a t e t o t a k e i t a t t h i s s ta g e ?
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s l e t u s t a k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l

r e s u m e a t e l e v e n o ’ c lo c k . W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M r Vo l m i n k j u s t b e f o r e th e t e a

a d j o u r n m e n t w e w e r e ju s t a b o u t t o d e a l w i th s li d e 1 6 o n p a g e 11 2
20

C h a ir.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d t o ta k e u s th r o u g h t h e
s li d e .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t h i s s li d e d e a ls w i th

th e

c o m m o n p r o b le m s t h a t a r e e n c o u n t e r e d i n t h e th r e e s ta g e s o f t h e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s th a t I r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r b e e n t h e p l a n n in g s t a g e ,
t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s t a g e a n d t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n s t a g e a n d I w o u ld j u s t
lik e t o t a k e y o u t h r o u g h s o m e o f t h e k e y i s s u e s t h a t a r e e x p e r i e n c e d a t
e a c h o n e o f t h e s e s ta g e s .

C h a ir u n d e r t h e p l a n n in g p h a s e t h e

p r o b le m s t h a t a r e o ft e n e n c o u n te r e d i s th a t th e r e a r e i n a d e q u a t e n e e d s
assessment.

S o b u s i n e s s w o u ld s a y o u r n e e d is X a n d a te n d e r g e ts

d r a f t e d o n t h e b a s is th a t t h e n e e d i s X a n d t h e t e n d e r g e t s a w a r d e d o n
t h e b a s is t h a t t h e n e e d is X b u t s h o r t ly a ft e r t h e a w a r d o f t h e t e n d e r
t h e n e e d b e c o m e s Y a n d th e n e e d in c r e a s e s .
10

S o e it h e r th a t is

d e li b e r a t e o r i t is a s a r e s u l t o f j u s t b a d p l a n n in g a n d i n a d e q u a t e n e e d s
a s s e s s m e n t o f c o u r s e i s li n k e d t o t h e n e x t p o in t I m e n t io n e d w h ic h is
t h a t s p e c i fic a ti o n s a r e p o o r ly d e v e l o p e d o r b i a s e d a n d t h e c o n s e q u e n c e
o f th a t is o f te n t h a t t e n d e r e r s d o n o t k n o w p r e c is e ly w h a t i s r e q u ir e d o f
t h e m a n d t h e w h o le p r o c e s s g e t s i n f e c t e d w i th v a g u e n e s s a n d
a m b i g u i ty. C h a i r t h e r e is a l s o t h e d i ffic u lt y o f – o f u n d e r b u d g e ti n g . S o
t h e e x p e c ta t io n w o u ld b e th a t a c o m m o d it y w o u l d c o s t s o m u c h a n d
t h e n a s t h e c o n tr a c t g e ts i m p l e m e n te d w h e n t h e f u l l s c o p e i s th e n
r e a l is e d th is h a s a k n o c k o n e ffe c t i n t e r m s o f t h e v a lu e o f w h a t t h is
w o u ld c o s t .

20

C h a i r I m e n ti o n e d th a t th e r e is a l s o d e v i a ti o n f r o m t h e

open bidding process.
stage.

N o w r e m e m b e r w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h a p la n n i n g

A t t h i s s ta g e o f t h e p r o c e s s p r o c u r e m e n t s h o u l d a s a d e f a u l t

s a y w e a r e g o in g o p e n t e n d e r. T h a t is th e d e fa u lt p o s i ti o n . O n e w o u l d
e x p e c t t h a t i n 9 5 p e r c e n t p l u s o f c a s e s w e w o u l d g o t h e o p e n te n d e r
r o u t e b u t w e h a v e s e e n i n th e p a s t h o w a t t h e p l a n n in g s t a g e a l r e a d y
t h e r e is a m o t iv a ti o n f o r a c o n fi n e m e n t.

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E v e n i f a l l th e g r o u n d s f o r

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c o n fi n e m e n t f o r g r o u n d s a r e n o t m e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is p a r t o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g a b o u t t h e p la n n i n g
s t a g e o r t h e p e o p l e i n v o lv e d a t th e p l a n n i n g s t a g e t h a t i t is – i t is n o t
o n e o f t h e t h i n g s th e y s h o u l d b e d e a l i n g w i t h w h e th e r o r n o t th e
s e r v ic e s o f g o o d s m u s t b e p r o c u r e d b y w a y o f a c o n f in e m e n t o r o p e n
t e n d e r ? I n o t h e r w o r d s a r e y o u s a y i n g w h e n t h e y m e n t io n th a t th e y a r e
e n c r o a c h in g o n s o m e t h in g t h a t d o e s n o t f a l l w i th in t h e ir r e s p o n s i b i li t y
o r a r e y o u n o t s a y in g th a t ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
10

No.

C h a ir w h a t I a m s a y i n g is t h a t

t h a t g r o u p I r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r – t h e C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l S o u r c i n g Te a m …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h e n t h e y s it d o w n a n d w r i te t h e

s tr a t e g y a n d a ll th e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s f o r t h e t e n d e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

O n e o f t h e q u e s t io n s t h e y m u s t a s k

t h e m s e l v e s a t th a t s t a g e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S h o u ld w e g o o p e n t e n d e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

O r is t h is s o m e t h in g t h a t s h o u l d b e

c o n fi n e d t o o n e o r a li m i t e d n u m b e r o f t e n d e r e r s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d I a m s a y i n g t h a t v e r y o f te n -

p e r h a p s l e s s s o n o w t h a n b e f o r e – b u t th e r e u s e d t o b e a p r a c tic e o f
s a y in g w e ll d e v i a t e a n d g o th e c o n f in e m e n t r o u t e …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

E v e n i f t h e r e is n o j u s ti f ic a ti o n o f

v a l i d g r o u n d s f o r th e c o n fi n e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : So it does happen at that CFST stage
a lr e a d y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h e n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s tr a t e g y g e ts

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o e s t h a t s ta g e f a ll u n d e r p l a n n in g ? T h a t is w h a t
I am …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o t h e r w o r d s y o u h a v e n o p r o b l e m w i th t h e p l a n n i n g
s t a g e i n c l u d in g c o n s i d e r a t io n w h e th e r i t s h o u l d b e o p e n t e n d e r o r
c o n fi n e m e n t ? Yo u h a v e …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I h a v e n o p r o b l e m w it h th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o h a v e ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : No, no, no.
CHAIRPERSON : Oh you do not.

20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I a m s a y in g I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m .
CHAIRPERSON :
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n

Ye s .
or

Oh

m o t iv a ti o n

you
is

ju s t h a v e
made

th a t

a concern where a
t here

should

be

a

c o n fi n e m e n t e v e n w h e r e t h e r e a r e n o p r o p e r g r o u n d s f o r a c o n f i n e m e n t .
T h a t is w h e r e y o u r c o n c e r n i s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is m y c o n c e r n C h a ir.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir I a ls o m e n t io n t h a t i t is a t t h is
s t a g e i n t h e p r o c e s s w h e r e w e h a v e s e e n a n i n a p p r o p r i a te u s e o f
e m e r g e n c y p r o c e d u r e s . S o w e d o m a k e a ll o w a n c e f o r e m e r g e n c i e s to –
the emergency route to be used.

Ty p ic a l ly i t a r i s e s w h e n t h e r e is a n

u n f o r e s e e n c r i s is t h a t m u s t b e r e s p o n d e d t o .

N o r m a ll y a n i m m e d ia t e

t h r e a t t o l i fe o r t o p r o p e r t y o r s e r i o u s b u s in e s s i n te r r u p ti o n o r a th r e a t
t o t h e e n v ir o n m e n t w h ic h th e r e is n o ti m e t o f o ll o w a n o r m a l t e n d e r
p r o c e s s . T h a t is a l l o w e d f o r b u t w e fi n d t h a t w h a t g e t s r e g a r d e d a s a n
10

e m e r g e n c y d o e s n o t a l w a y s m e e t th o s e s tr i n g e n t r e q u ir e m e n ts a n d a n
e m e r g e n c y is n o t a n e m e r g e n c y j u s t b e c a u s e b u s in e s s r e a l ly n e e d s th is
t h i n g u r g e n t ly o r b e c a u s e a n E x e c u t iv e h a s c a ll e d i t a n e m e r g e n c y. I t
m u s t m e e t th a t n a r r o w s tr i c t d e fi n i t io n o f w h a t a n e m e r g e n c y i s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d i t c a n n o t b e a n e m e r g e n c y i f i t is

b e f o r e – i f i t is a s a r e s u l t o f p o o r p l a n n in g ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : If it is r e s u l t o f?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Of poor planning.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O f p o o r p l a n n in g – n o a b s o l u te ly n o t.
I t m u s t b e c o m p le t e l y u n fo r e s e e n a n d n o a s a r e s u l t o f p o o r p l a n n i n g .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l is t h a t – i s th a t a c c u r a t e ?

If there was poor

p l a n n in g a n d it i s g e n u i n e p o o r p l a n n in g a n d a t a c e r t a i n s ta g e it i s
r e a l is e d t h a t i f y o u w e n t – if t h e c o m p a n y w e n t t h e o p e n t e n d e r t h e r e
w i ll b e ti m e a n d y e t t h e c o m p a n y n e e d s th is t h in g w i t h i n – f o r e x a m p l e
– a w e e k b u t y o u l o o k a t a l l t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n a n d y o u s a y b u t t h i s
t h i n g s h o u ld h a v e b e e n f o r e s e e n t h r e e m o n t h s a g o th a t if A , B , C , D

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
w a s n o t d o n e t h is is w h e r e i t – w h e r e it w o u l d c o m e t o . N o w i t is p o o r
p l a n n in g b u t y o u d o n o t s u s p e c t c r i m in a l i t y, c o r r u p t io n a n d s o o n . Yo u
ju s t s a y y o u h a v e s o m e in c o m p e t e n t M a n a g e r s o m e w h e r e a l o n g t h e li n e
o r a f e w M a n a g e r s w h o a r e in c o m p e t e n t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : H e d i d n o t d o h is j o b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t t h e c o m p a n y d o e s n e e d th e s e g o o d s w i t h i n a
week.

Yo u c a n n o t s a y – c a n y o u – b e c a u s e o f p o o r p la n n i n g t h e

c o m p a n y s h o u ld r a t h e r n o t h a v e t h e s e g o o d s w i t h i n a w e e k ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir I f o l lo w – I f o ll o w w h a t y o u a r e
10

s a y in g .

When

I

look

at

the

N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y

I n s tr u c ti o n

on

e m e r g e n c i e s I th i n k th e r e is a s p e c i fi c p r o v is i o n th e r e t h a t t h e
e m e r g e n c y c a n b e tr i g g e r e d i f i t is a n u n e x p e c t e d e v e n t a n d I a m p r e t ty
s u r e t h e y s a y s p e c if ic a l ly t h a t i t s h o u l d n o t b e a s a r e s u l t o f p o o r
p l a n n in g . S o Tr e a s u r y s e e m s t o s a y i f y o u r - i f y o u h a v e a s e l f - c r e a t e d
e m e r g e n c y t h e n y o u c a n n o t r e ly o n y o u r p o o r p l a n n i n g a s a r e a s o n n o t
t o f o ll o w t e n d e r p r o c e s s e s a n d I th i n k w e a r e s o m e w h a t c o n s tr a i n e d - I
a m a p p r e c i a t iv e o f – o f t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u a r e m a k i n g b e c a u s e b u s i n e s s
m a y w e l l n e e d t h i s c o m m o d i ty d e s p i t e t h e p o o r p l a n n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

Ye s .

Yo u s e e t h e r e w o u l d b e – w e l l I d o n o t k n o w

how wide the ambit would be of self-created emergency – you know –
b u t o n e fo r m o f s e l f - c r e a t e d e m e r g e n c y is s o m e b o d y w h o h a s g o t s o m e
o th e r a g e n d a – y o u k n o w - a n d b a s i c a ll y m a n i p u l a te s – y o u k n o w – th e
p r o c e s s e s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h is is n o d e a l t w i t h b y s o a n d s o b e f o r e
t h a t t i m e b e c a u s e i f i t i s d e a l t w i t h t h a t – a n d t h e r e i s s t il l ti m e – t h a t
p e r s o n w i ll s a y i t m u s t g o t o o p e n t e n d e r a n d I d o n o t w a n t i t t o g o to

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
o p e n t e n d e r.

S o h e m u s t o r s h e m u s t s e e i t w h e n t h e r e is n o t i m e –

y o u k n o w – t h a t i s o n e s i tu a ti o n b u t e v e n w i t h th a t s i t u a t io n t h e r e i t i s
a n i n d iv i d u a l .

I t m i g h t b e a n i n d i v i d u a l w h o p u ts t h e c o m p a n y i n t h a t

s i tu a ti o n a n d – a n d m a y b e t h o s e g o o d s a r e v e r y c r it ic a l a n d i f t h e
c o m p a n y w e r e n o t t o s e c u r e t h o s e g o o d s w i t h i n a w e e k t h e r e w o u ld b e
d ir e c o n s e q u e n c e s f o r t h e c o m p a n y fi n a n c i a l ly. S o – s o – b u t I a m s u r e
t h a t th e – y o u k n o w – a ll o f t h o s e t h i n g s w o u l d b e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t in
t e r m s o f w h a t w o u ld b e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s i f w e in s is t o n o p e n t e n d e r
w h e n t h e r e i s n o ti m e r e a ll y l e f t a n d w h a t w o u ld b e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s i f
10

w e – w e d e v ia t e e v e n t h o u g h s o m e i n d iv id u a l m a y b e r e s p o n s ib le f o r
t h is s i tu a ti o n . O b v i o u s l y s u c h a n i n d iv id u a l n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i t h …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON :

I n w h a t e v e r w a y b u t y o u a ls o d o n o t w a n t t h e

c o m p a n y a s a w h o le t o a c tu a l ly s u ff e r b e c a u s e o f t h a t i n d iv id u a l .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir p r a c ti c a lly i f I w e r e t o b e

c o n fr o n t e d w i t h a s i t u a t io n li k e t h a t my a d v ic e w o u l d b e a s fo ll o w s .
Fi r s tl y w e c a n n o t i g n o r e th e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y Pr e s c r i p t t h a t s a y s i f i t
a s – i f it is a s a r e s u lt o f b a d p l a n n i n g d o n o t c a ll i t a n e m e r g e n c y a n d
d o n o t tr i g g e r y o u r o w n e m e r g e n c y p r o c e s s e s b u t h a v i n g s a i d th a t t o
20

u s e y o u r e x a m p l e th is c o m m o d it y is n e e d e d d e s p e r a t e ly a n d i f w e d o
n o t h a v e i t t h e r e w il l b e f a r r e a c h in g r a m i f ic a t io n s fo r t h e o r g a n i s a t io n .
I w o u l d t h e n a p p r o a c h N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d s a y I n e e d s o m e s o r t o f
d e v i a ti o n o r I n e e d s o m e a c c o m m o d a t i o n o f th is s c e n a r io a n d w h e r e w e
p u t fo r w a r d a p r o p e r c a s e a n d i t is w e l l m o tiv a t e d Tr e a s u r y is li k e ly t o
b e r e s p o n s i v e t o t h a t . I d o n o t t h in k Tr e a s u r y w o u ld a l lo w th e c o m p a n y

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t o i m p lo d e j u s t b e c a u s e o f a – o f th e ir p r e s c r i p t s .

I think that they

w o u ld a c c o m m o d a t e t h e s i t u a ti o n s u c h a s t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir th e m i c .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W o u l d d e v ia ti o n – w o u ld d e v ia t io n b e a l l
e n c o m p a s s i n g i n th e s e n s e th a t c o n f in e m e n t w o u l d fa ll u n d e r d e v i a ti o n ,
e m e r g e n c y w o u l d f a l l u n d e r d e v ia t io n o r i n t h e s e n s e t h a t in a n
e m e r g e n c y s i t u a ti o n y o u a r e s a y i n g w e a r e a ll o w e d n o t t o u s e o p e n
t e n d e r a n d i n a c o n fi n e m e n t s i tu a ti o n y o u s a y w e a r e n o t o b l ig e d t o u s e
10

o p e n t e n d e r a n d t h e n t h e r e m a y b e o th e r i n s t a n c e s o f d e v i a t i o n .

In

o th e r w o r d s is d e v i a ti o n l ik e a n u m b r e l l a u n d e r w h ic h d i ff e r e n t
s i tu a ti o n s fa ll o r d o e s e m e r g e n c y a n d c o n f i n e m e n t …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : I understand.
CHAIRPERSON :

D o t h e y c o n s ti t u t e t h e ir o w n s e p a r a t e e x c e p t io n s t o

b e t o t h e o p e n t e n d e r r e q u ir e m e n t s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a n k y o u f o r t h a t C h a ir. T h e r e i s a n
in s t r u c t i o n n o t e 3 / 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 is s u e d b y Tr e a s u r y w h e r e th e y s a y y o u a s
a n o r g a n o f S t a t e y o u c a n d e v i a te w i t h o u t a p p r o a c h i n g u s f o r p r i o r
p e r m is s io n o n l y in tw o i n s t a n c e s .
20

Th e f ir s t in s ta n c e is w h e n o n e is

d e a li n g w i t h w h a t is c a ll e d a s o le s o u r c e s u p p ly. T h e r e i s n o o n e e ls e
w h o c a n p r o v i d e th is c o m m o d i t y e x c e p t th a t i n d i v i d u a l o r t h a t c o m p a n y.
T h a t i s t h e fir s t in s t a n c e w h e r e I d o n o t n e e d t o g o t o Tr e a s u r y.
Tr e a s u r y g iv e s Tr a n s n e t t h e a u th o r it y to d e v i a te fr o m a n o p e n b i d d i n g
p r o c e s s p r o v id e d i t c a n s h o w e m p ir i c a ll y t h a t t h e r e is n o o n e e ls e w h o
c a n p r o v id e th is p a r ti c u l a r s e r v i c e .

Th e s e c o n d s c e n a r i o i s w h e r e w e

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a r e d e a l in g w i t h a g e n u in e e m e r g e n c y i . e . a s I h a v e e x p l a i n e d b e fo r e
t h e r e i s a n i m m e d i a t e th r e a t t o l i fe o r th e e n v ir o n m e n t o r to p r o p e r t y –
d i d n o t a r i s e a s a r e s u lt o f b a d p l a n n i n g a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r th . T h e n
if it is a tr u e e m e r g e n c y I d o n o t n e e d to g o t o Tr e a s u r y. I a m d e a li n g
w i t h a c r is i s a n d Tr e a s u r y w o u l d r e q u ir e m e t o ta k e w h a t e v e r s te p s I
r e q u ir e t o d e a l w i t h t h a t c r is is t h a t I a m c o n fr o n t e d w i t h .

A ll o t h e r

d e v i a ti o n s m a y b e i t is a n “ e m e r g e n c y ” b u t i t d o e s n o t q u i te fi t t h a t
s c e n a r i o w h i c h I h a v e m e n ti o n e d o r i t is c o n f in e m e n t n o t b a s e d o n s o l e
s u p p li e r b u t I p r e f e r t h is e n ti ty ’s m e th o d o l o g y t o a n o t h e r e n t i ty. Fo r a l l
10

o th e r d e v i a t i o n s Tr e a s u r y s a y s c o m e t o u s f o r p r i o r a p p r o v a l b e fo r e y o u
c a n d e v ia t e .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

S o d e v i a t i o n w o u ld b e l ik e w i d e b u t w i t h

c e r t a i n s p e c if ic s a c c o m m o d a te d b u t s ti ll le a v i n g e n o u g h r o o m f o r a
s i tu a ti o n t h a t n o b o d y h a s th o u g h t a b o u t t o b e d e a l t w i th a s w e ll ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ex a c t ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d a s I s a y i f w e p u t fo r w a r d a

p r o p e r c a s e Tr e a s u r y is lik e ly to g r a n t d e v i a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Fr o m

–

fr o m t h e

open

bidding

process.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e y o u m i g h t h e l p m e w it h o n e o f th e th in g s t h a t I
h a v e - a l w a y s h a v e d i ff ic u l ty u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h ic h y o u h a v e m e n t i o n e d
w h ic h c o m e s f r o m Tr e a s u r y.

N a m e ly th a t i f t h e r e i s o n l y o n e p e r s o n

w h o – t o y o u r k n o w le d g e – p r o v i d e s t h a t o r c a n p r o v i d e a p a r tic u la r

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
s e r v ic e o r c e r t a i n g o o d s th e n y o u d o n o t h a v e to g o o p e n t e n d e r. N o w I
c a n u n d e r s t a n d th a t w h e r e t h e g r o u n d f o r j u s ti fi c a t i o n is u r g e n c y o r is
a n e m e r g e n c y b u t I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d it w h e n th e r e is n o th in g a b o u t
u r g e n c y b u t y o u s a y i t is o n e b e c a u s e w h a t h a r m w o u l d i t d o t o
a n y b o d y t o p u t i t t o o p e n t e n d e r b e c a u s e if th e y a r e t h e o n ly o n e s t h e y a r e th e o n ly o n e s w h o w i ll p u t in a b i d b u t j u s t i n c a s e y o u a r e
wrong.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e m a y b e s o m e b o d y w h o s a y s n o I a c t u a l ly c a n –
10

c a n a ls o p r o v i d e t h is .

I have never understood why that should be a

g r o u n d n o t t o g o t o o p e n t e n d e r. D o I m is s s o m e t h i n g ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s . S o …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir I t h i n k t h e – t h e g r o u n d f o r

d e v i a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

B a s e d o n s o le s u p p li e r is th a t t h e r e

is o n ly o n e s u p p l ie r w h o is u n iq u e ly p o s i t io n e d to m e e t w h a te v e r t h e ir
s p e c i f ic n e e d is o f t h e o r g a n o f S t a te . L e t m e g i v e a n e x a m p le .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

N o , n o a n e x a m p l e I w i ll u n d e r s ta n d . W h a t I d o n o t

u n d e r s t a n d is w h y m u s t y o u – w h y m u s t r e l ia n c e b e o n y o u r k n o w l e d g e
w h e n y o u c o u l d b e m is t a k e n th a t t h e r e is s o m e b o d y e ls e o u t t h e r e
b e c a u s e it is o n ly i f y o u p u t i t o u t t o th e p u b lic – t o t h e m a r k e t – th a t
y o u c a n b e s u r e . Yo u s e e i f y o u p u t it o u t t o t h e m a r k e t …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e q u e s t fo r p r o p o s a l s g o e s a ll o v e r a n d t h e r e is

o n ly o n e w h o – w h o p u t s i n a b i d b e c a u s e th e r e is n o o t h e r p e r s o n o r
b u s i n e s s th e n y o u a r e s u r e a n d w e r e n o t r e ly in g o n y o u r o w n
k n o w l e d g e . Yo u a r e s u r e t h a t w e h a v e t o g iv e i t t o o n e b e c a u s e t h a t i s
t h e o n ly o n e w h o r e s p o n d e d b u t i f w e r e ly o n y o u r k n o w l e d g e …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y a s f a r a s I k n o w t h e r e is o n ly o n e . W h a t if
you are wrong?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e r e is s o m e b o d y e ls e a n d i f y o u h a d p u t
t h e r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l s o u t to t h e p u b l i c s o m e b o d y e ls e c o u l d h a v e
c o m e u p . T h a t is m y c o n c e r n b e c a u s e o n e i f y o u – i f y o u a r e m is t a k e n
t h e r e m a y b e p r e j u d ic e t o th e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e t h e n it i s s u b j e c t e d t o
o n e – y o u k n o w – s u p p li e r w h e n a c t u a lly t h e r e c o u l d b e a n o t h e r o n e
m a y b e w h o m ig h t h a v e p r o v i d e d a b e t t e r s e r v ic e o r b e t te r g o o d s o r I
m e a n m a y b e a b e tt e r p r ic e b u t if y o u s a y w e ll t h e r e is n o e m e r g e n c y w e
h a v e t h r e e m o n th s le t u s p u t t h e r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l o u t t o th e p u b l ic .
W i th in 3 0 d a y s t h e y m u s t c o m e b a c k a n d i f t h e r e is o n ly o n e th a t i s
fi n e . W e a r e w h e r e w e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a n y w a y i f w e h a d n o t p u t i t o u t

20

b e c a u s e t h a t i s t h e o n e w e k n e w b u t ju s t in c a s e w e a r e w r o n g
s o m e b o d y e ls e w il l c o m e u p .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

No I - I appreciate those – those

c o m m e n t s a n d C h a ir w e h a v e s e e n a m i s a p p li c a t io n o f t h i s d e v ia t io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Based on sole source …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h e n in f a c t t h e r e – w e h a v e p i c k e d
u p t h a t t h e r e w e r e o t h e r s u p p l ie r s .

S o i t is – i t is a r u le w h i c h h a s

b e e n is s u e d b y Tr e a s u r y b u t i t i s a w i d e o p e n t o – to a b u s e .

Th e

e x a m p l e I w a s g o i n g t o u s e w h ic h I t h i n k w o u l d il lu s t r a t e t h a t i t c a n
a c t u a ll y b e u s e d c o r r e c t ly is w h e r e w e h a v e a c q u ir e d a p ie c e o f
m a c h in e r y – s a y – fr o m a n O E M . A n O r i g in a l E q u ip m e n t M a n u f a c t u r e r
a n d n o o n e e l s e m a k e s t h e s p a r e p a r ts f o r t h a t m a c h i n e e x c e p t th e
O E M w h o b u il t t h e m a c h i n e .
10

S o – a n d p e r h a p s t h e O E M a ls o c o m e s

w i t h c e r t a in w a r r a n ti e s a n d s a y s to u s i f y o u d e v i a te a n d g e t a n y o t h e r
s p a r e p a r t s a n d p u t i t i n t o t h is m a c h in e y o u w i ll f o r f e i t y o u r w a r r a n t e e s .
S o t h a t w o u ld b e a ty p i c a l e x a m p l e o f w h e r e I s a y t h e r e is o n ly o n e
e n t i ty w h o c a n p r o v id e m e w i t h t h e s p a r e p a r ts f o r th e m a c h i n e th e y
b u il t a n d t h a t i s th a t e n t i ty a n d t h e y a r e u n iq u e ly p o s i ti o n e d to m e e t t h e
n e e d s o f t h e o r g a n o f S t a t e b u t t h e w a y i t o u g h t t o b e a p p li e d is i t
s h o u l d b e a p p l ie d v e r y s p a r i n g l y a n d o n ly w h e n t h e r e is a b s o l u t e c la r i ty
a n d c e r t a i n ty n o t b a s e d o n a q u ic k d e s k t o p a n a ly s is b u t o n t h o r o u g h
m a r k e t r e s e a r c h t h a t t h e r e is r e a l ly n o o n e e ls e w h o c a n p r o v i d e t h i s
p a r t ic u l a r e n t i ty – t h a t p a r tic u la r p r o d u c t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . J a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r Vo l m in k ju s t to c o n c lu d e o n t h i s

s t a g e o f p l a n n in g - s h o u l d w e u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u a r e
r a i s i n g th e s e c o n c e r n s o f th e c o n c e p t s u c h a s e m e r g e n c y d e v i a t i o n
w h ic h w e r e u s e d f r o m t i m e t o t i m e f lo w fr o m y o u r e x p e r ie n c e t h a t th e y
were abused on a number of occasions?

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
these things.

C h a ir t h a t is w h y I a m m e n t io n i n g

State capture I think happens through a process that –

t h a t i s d e s ig n e d t o o v e r r i d e c o n tr o ls a n d w h e n w e ta lk a b o u t d e v i a ti o n
fr o m th e o p e n i n g b i d d i n g p r o c e s s - I w i ll t a lk a b o u t a n u m b e r o f o t h e r s
in a s h o r t w h il e – i t ju s t h e l p s t o f a c ili t a t e c a p tu r e .

I t e n a b l e s th o s e

w h o h a v e a ll s o r ts o f n e fa r i o u s m o t iv a te s t o d o w h a t t h e y – w h a t th e y
w i s h t o d o a n d it is f o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t I t h o u g h t t h a t I s h o u ld h i g h li g h t
some of these …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

D i ffi c u l t ie s h e r e .

P e r h a p s C h a ir i f I

can move onto the …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Pr o c u r e m e n t l e g – I h a v e a lr e a d y

m e n ti o n e d t h e p r o b le m b e i n g u n c l e a r s p e c i fi c a t i o n s a n d e v a l u a ti o n
c r i t e r i a . I d o n o t t h i n k I a m g o i n g t o ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u c a n m o v e to t h e s e c o n d o n e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e s e c o n d o n e d e a l s w i th s h o r t ti m e
f o r b i d d e r s to r e s p o n d .

Th e r e q u ir e m e n t s a r e t h a t b i d d e r s s h o u l d b e

g iv e n a t l e a s t 2 1 d a y s i n a n o r m a l t e n d e r to r e s p o n d to t h e t e n d e r b u t
20

o ft e n w e fi n d t h a t b i d d e r s a r e g iv e n a v e r y s h o r t ti m e to r e s p o n d a n d
e i t h e r t h a t m e a n s t h a t t h e y c a n n o t g iv e a p r o p e r r e s p o n s e a n d th e y
may fail certain dates as a result of having given a rushed bid
s u b m is s io n o r th e y d o n o s u b m it b e c a u s e th e y s a y l o o k I c a n n o t m a k e
y o u r – y o u r s tr i n g e n t t i m e l in e s . S o I t h in k t h a t i s o n e o f t h e d i ffi c u l ti e s
w h ic h w e h a v e e x p e r i e n c e d .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y I a s k w h e t h e r in r e l a ti o n t o t h a t p a r t ic u l a r i t e m o f
p o s s i b le a b u s e s w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e a ls o s u c h a b u s e s i n r e g a r d t o
s o m e o f t h e t e n d e r s o r c o n tr a c ts t h a t w e w il l b e d e a l in g w i th in – i n
r e g a r d t o Tr a n s n e t . I r a is e t h a t s i m p ly b e c a u s e in r e g a r d t o B o s a s a I
heard evidence where for example - according to one of the witnesses
– a s h o r t ti m e w a s g iv e n t o b i d d e r s b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s c o l l u s i o n
b e t w e e n t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s to b e g i v e n t h e b id a n d a s h o r t ti m e w a s
d e s i g n e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t w a s u n li k e l y th a t a n y b o d y w o u l d b e a b l e
t o p u t i n a b i d o t h e r th a n t h is c o m p a n y w h i c h h a d l o n g k n o w n t h a t th e r e
10

was to be this …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a ls . W o u l d t h e r e h a v e b e e n s u c h
s i tu a ti o n s a Tr a n s n e t o r t h i s is j u s t g e n e r a l ly s p e a k in g w h a t y o u h a v e
put here?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir w e h a v e c o m e a c r o s s …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr a c t ic a l i n s t a n c e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O f t h is i n – in a c t u a l t e n d e r s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Th a t s p e c i f ic o n e d o e s n o fe a t u r e in
t h e fi v e tr a n s a c ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y b u t …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h ic h I w i ll b e a d d r e s s i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 84 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : But other …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O f t h e p r o b l e m s w h i c h I w il l m e n t io n
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : M o s t c e r t a i n ly d o f e a tu r e . . .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : In t h o s e tr a n s a c ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I - I s p e a k a b o u t c h a n g i n g c r it e r ia

d u r i n g b i d e v a l u a t io n a n d b id a d j u d ic a ti o n w h e r e a te n d e r e r b i d s o n 1 0
c r i t e r i a – s a y – a n d w h e n h e is e v a lu a t e d o r a t t h e a d j u d ic a ti o n s t a g e
o th e r e x tr a n e o u s f a c t o r s w h i c h o u g h t t o h a v e p l a y e d o n r o l e i n t h e
d e c is i o n m a k in g t h e n f e a t u r e s q u i t e p r o m i n e n tl y a n d I c a ll i t e v a l u a t i o n
b y a m b u s h . I t i s li k e y o u a r e a m b u s h in g a b i d d e r w i t h c r it e r i a t h a t h e
h a d n o id e a h e w a s g o i n g t o b e m e a s u r e d a g a in s t .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d i t m a y g iv e t h e i m p r e s s i o n a l s o to s o m e b o d y

lo o k in g a t t h i s t h a t a t th e b e g i n n i n g c e r t a in – a c e r t a i n s e t o f c r i te r i a
w a s r e q u i r e d a n d t h e n l a t e r o n w h e n d i ff e r e n t b id s h a v e b e e n p u t i n i t
20

m a y – i t lo o k s l ik e t h e p a r ti c u l a r b i d d e r i s n o t g o i n g t o b e a b l e to g e t
t h is b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y e l s e h a s p u t i n a b e t t e r b i d a n d t h e r e f o r e y o u
n o w c h a n g e t h e c r i te r i a t o s u i t th e b i d d e r t h a t y o u w a n t …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: They preferred.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To u l ti m a t e ly g e t th e – t h e t e n d e r.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is e x a c t ly – t h a t is th e …

Page 85 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th e d a n g e r.

I m e n ti o n a ls o i n

c o n s i s te n t a p p lic a t io n o f d is q u a li f ic a ti o n . B i d d e r s A , B a n d C a l l t h r e e
o f t h e m fa il t o m e e t a c e r t a i n p r e q u a li f ic a ti o n c r i t e r i a y e t b id d e r A i s
a l lo w e d t h r o u g h a n d b i d d e r s B a n d C a r e d is q u a l if i e d o n t h e v e r y s a m e
g r o u n d s a n d e v e n v e r y r e c e n t ly C h a i r I h a v e s e e n t h is i n a – a h u g e
t e n d e r th a t h a d g o n e p l a i n s a il in g t h r o u g h a ll t h e r e v i e w i n g s tr u c t u r e s
w h e r e a b i d d e r w a s a l l o w e d th r o u g h w h o s h o u ld h a v e b e e n d is q u a li f ie d
r ig h t a t t h e g e t g o . F o r t u n a t e ly i t h a s b e e n p ic k e d u p a n d t h a t m a tt e r
10

w i ll b e a d d r e s s e d a n d r e v e r s e d i n d u e c o u r s e b u t th is is a c o n s ta n t
c h a l le n g e .

I w i ll j u s t m e n ti o n a f e w o t h e r s .

d o w n to w h e r e i t s a y s :

If I can maybe just go

“ R e c o m m e n d a t io n o f t h e E v a l u a t io n Te a m

O v e r r u le d ” w h e r e a n e v a lu a ti o n t e a m m a d e u p o f e x p e r ts i n th e f ie l d very

o f te n

–

who

have

considered

the

bid

scored

the

bidder

a p p r o p r i a t e ly, m a d e a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n a s t o w h o t h e s e l e c t e d o r
s u c c e s s fu l b id d e r s h o u ld b e a n d i t t h e n s e r v e s b e f o r e o n e o r o t h e r
p e r s o n o r b o d y w i t h d e l e g a t i o n t o d o t h e t e n d e r a w a r d a n d i t is a t t h a t
s t a g e t h a t th e p e r s o n s a y s n o I d i s a g r e e . I d o n o t l ik e w h o y o u h a v e –
I do not support your reasons or whatever the case maybe and we have
20

p u t in c e r t a in r u le s a s t o h o w t h a t is t o b e d e a lt w it h . W e m a k e i t c l e a r
t h a t t h e p e r s o n w i th a d j u d i c a t o r y p o w e r s h a s n o a u t h o r i t y t o o v e r r id e
t h e – t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t c o m e s fr o m E v a lu a ti o n Te a m .

Where

t h e r e i s a d is a g r e e m e n t i t m u s t b e e s c a l a te d fu r t h e r u p to e i t h e r t h e
C h i e f E x e c u tiv e o r B o a r d t o r e s o lv e th e m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l t h a t is q u it e i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e w h e r e t h e o n e

Page 86 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
b o d y is m e a n t o – w h e r e i ts a u th o r it y o r p o w e r s a r e l i m it e d t o m a k in g a
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d a n o t h e r b o d y g i v e n t h e a u t h o r i ty o r p o w e r t o m a k e
t h e d e c is io n o n t h e o n e h a n d y o u d o n o t w a n t to g iv e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s
t h e s t a tu s o f a d e c is i o n d e f a c to . Yo u w a n t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s to r e m a in
w h a t t h e y a r e n a m e ly r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s b e c a u s e i f th e i n t e n t io n is th a t
t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n – t h o s e w h o r e c o m m e n d s h o u ld m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n
t h e n y o u s h o u l d g iv e th e m t h e p o w e r t o d e c id e .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w – s o if t h e – i f t h e p r e s c r i p ts s a y th e y m u s t
10

m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n th e n t h a t is w h a t t h e y m u s t m a k e .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON :

I f t h e p r e s c r ip t s s a y s o m e b o d y e ls e m u s t m a k e a

d e c is i o n t h a t p e r s o n m u s t m a k e t h a t d e c i s io n a n d t h a t p e r s o n m u s tn ’ t
n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e w h a t h e o r s h e g e t s i s s u p p o s e d t o
b e a d e c i s i o n w h e n i t’s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a n d h e o r s h e – i t m u s tn ’ t b e
lik e h e o r s h e is s u p p o s e d t o r u b b e r s t a m p .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

Sure, sure.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t e a c h o n e t o d o t h e ir j o b t h e w a y t h e y s h o u ld
d o i t, b u t a t th e s a m e ti m e y o u d o n ’ t w a n t t h e p e r s o n w h o m a k e s t h e
20

d e c is i o n t o tr e a t t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a s o f n o v a lu e , y o u w a n t th e m t o
g iv e , a p p ly t h e ir m i n d a n d g i v e p r o p e r w e ig h t to t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s
b u t a t th e s a m e t i m e b e a b l e t o s a y I d o n ’ t a g r e e w h e r e t h e y g e n u i n e ly
d o n ’t a g r e e , b u t th e n m a y b e w h a t y o u s a y y o u h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d
n a m e ly t h a t th e y s h o u ld n o t o v e r r u l e b u t t h e n t h a t y o u s h o u l d b r in g in
s o m e b o d y e ls e , y o u s h o u l d e s c a l a te t o s o m e b o d y e ls e m ig h t b e a g o o d

Page 87 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
way to bring a balance between the two.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Ex a c tly, s o th e r a t i o n a l e i s t h i s

C h a ir, t h a t i t is t h e S F E T a s I s a id m a d e u p o f t h e b o d y o f e x p e r ts
w h o s e g o i n g to l o o k a t t h e m a t t e r, p o i n t t a k e n th a t t h e y ’r e n o t t h e fi n a l
d e c is i o n m a k e r s , t h e y a r e t h e r e c o m m e n d e r s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

T h a t s e r v e s b e fo r e t h e d e c i s i o n

makers.
CHAIRPERSON :
10

Ye s .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

B u t w h e r e th e d e c is i o n m a k e r,

b e i n g t h e A d j u d ic a ti o n C o m m i t t e e h a s a d i ff e r e n t v i e w t o w h a t is b e i n g
p l a c e d b e f o r e t h e m , w e h a v e s a i d t h a t t h e d e fa u lt p o s i ti o n s h o u l d b e t o
r e fe r t h e m a tt e r b a c k f o r p r o p e r – o r fo r r e - c o n s id e r a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s i n t h e li g h t o f t h e g r o u n d s f o r r e s e r v a t i o n s b y

t h e d e c i d i n g . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:
than

just

s u b s ti t u ti n g

i ts

By t h e r e c o m m e n d i n g b o d y r a th e r
own

d e c is io n

fo r

that

of

the

p r i m a r y. .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

T h a t m ig h t c r e a t e a g o o d b a l a n c e b e c a u s e i t g iv e s

t h e r e c o m m e n d i n g b o d y a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o l o o k a t t h e g r o u n d s o f t h e
r e s e r v a ti o n s o f t h e d e c id in g b o d y ju s t i n c a s e t h e y m is s e d s o m e t h i n g .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :
CHAIRPERSON :

E x a c tl y.

B u t o n c e t h e y ’ v e lo o k e d a t i t , th e y m i g h t s a y, y o u ’r e

a c t u a ll y r ig h t w e o v e r l o o k e d t h is e v e n i f t h e y a r e e x p e r ts o r t h e y m ig h t
s a y, n o a c t u a lly w e d id c o n s i d e r t h is , i t’s n o t g o o d e n o u g h , t h e y s t ic k t o

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h e ir r e c o m m e n d a t io n . T h e n in t h a t e v e n t i t ’s m o r e i m p o r t a n t to r e a ll y
lo o k a t e v e r y t h in g p r o p e r l y b u t th a t m ig h t b e a g o o d c h e c k a n d b a l a n c e .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMIN K:

E x a c t ly a n d i f t h a t s t a n d - o ff

c o n ti n u e s b e tw e e n t h e C F E D a n d A d j u d ic a ti o n b o d y t h e n i t g e ts
e s c a l a t e d t o a h i g h e r b o d y.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y e s .

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h o m a k e s a fi n a l d e c is io n .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja thank you.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

B u t y o u a ls o a d d r e s s in s ta n c e s , M r

Vo l m i n k n o t o n ly w h e r e y o u a r e d e a l in g w it h t w o b o d i e s t h a t m i g h t b e
h a v i n g e x p e r tis e , t h e r e a r e in s t a n c e s w h e n y o u ’ r e d e a l i n g w i th s p e c i f ic
tr a n s a c ti o n s w h e r e b y y o u m i g h t h a v e t h a t e v a l u a t i o n te a m w i t h e x p e r t s
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n – i ts r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b e in g o v e r r u l e d b y o n e p e r s o n
w h o h a s b e e n g i v e n p o w e r to d o t h a t .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

C o r r e c t j a a n d th a t t a k e s m e t o t h e

n e x t p o in t C h a ir a n d t h a t is th a t w e – a n d m a y b e ju s t a fe w p o i n ts d o w n
a c t u a lly, w e ta lk a b o u t – o n e o f t h e d i ffi c u lt ie s i s th e o p p o r t u n is ti c u s e
o f r is k f a c t o r s a s a r e a s o n t o o v e r lo o k t h e t o p r a n k e d b i d d e r.

So a

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w o u l d b e m a d e , t h e b i d d e r m e e t s a l l th e c r i t e r i a , it
20

n o w s e r v e s b e fo r e t h e B o a r d o r t h e A d j u d i c a ti o n C o m m i t te e , t h e A D C o r
w h ic h e v e r a d j u d ic a to r y b o d y t h is a n d i t i s a t t h a t p o i n t th a t t h i s b o d y
r a i s e s a ll k i n d s o f r is k f a c to r s a n d s a y s , n o b u t t h a t r e c o m m e n d e d
c o m p a n y p o s e s t h is r i s k a n d t h a t r i s k , v e r y o f t e n r i s k s t h a t w e r e t a k e n
in t o a c c o u n t d u r i n g t h e f u n c ti o n a li t y s t a g e , t h e e v a l u a t i o n s ta g e b u t
n o w g e ts r e v i s i t e d a s a r e a s o n t o o v e r l o o k th e t e n d e r e r a n d I m e n t io n

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h a t b e c a u s e I w il l c o m e b a c k to t h is w h e n I d e a l w i t h th e a w a r d o f t h e
D a t a S e r v i c e s te n d e r t o T- S y s te m w h e n G it ji m a w a s i n f a c t t h e
r e c o m m e n d e d b o d y b u t G i tj i m a w a s o v e r lo o k e d b a s e d o n c e r ta i n
id e n t i fi e d r is k s w h ic h w e r e a d e q u a t e l y d e a lt w i t h a n d a ls o in th e a w a r d
t o T- Sy s te m s , w h e n N e o te l w a s th e r e c o m m e n d e d b o d y a n d N e o te l w a s
o v e r l o o k e d b a s e d o n c e r t a i n a l l e g e d r is k s t h a t w e r e id e n ti fi e d , s o th a t
is a k e y c a r d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s a n y o th e r t h i n g t h a t y o u w i s h t o

h i g h l ig h t u n d e r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s ta g e ?
10

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Perhaps not – no I don’t under the

p r o c u r e m e n t l e g , p e r h a p s j u s t u n d e r t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n le g , I ’l l b e v e r y
b r i e f o n t h a t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

B u t c a n I t a k e y o u t o t h e la s t b u ll e t

point under procurement for you to comm ent and to prefer a far more
m u c h c l a r i ty o n t h a t is s u e w h e r e y o u s a y t h a t , “ a w a r d n o t m a d e b y
d e l e g a t e d o ffic i a l” , w h a t i n s t a n c e s d o y o u h a v e in m i n d ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a i r w h a t w e h a v e p i c k e d u p is

t h a t w e h a v e d e c is io n s m a d e b y o ff ic ia ls w h o a c t o u ts id e o f t h e i r
d e l e g a t e d a u th o r it y, I ’v e m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r t h a t w e h a v e a d e l e g a ti o n o f
20

a u t h o r i ty f r a m e w o r k t h a t s a y s w h o h a s a u t h o r i t y to a p p r o a c h t h e
m a r k e t , w h o h a s a u th o r i ty t o d o t e n d e r a d ju d i c a t io n , w h o h a s a u th o r i ty
t o c o n tr a c t w i th s u p p l i e r s a n d w e h a v e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e o ffic i a ls a c t
o u t s i d e o f t h a t d e l e g a t io n , e i t h e r i n t h e s e n s e t h a t t h e y a c t – th e y
a w a r d t e n d e r s f o r m u c h h i g h e r v a l u e th a n w h a t t h e y a r e e n ti tl e d to o r
t h e y d o n o t w a i t fo r t h e ir t u r n i n th e p r o c e s s .

Page 90 of 208

Yo u c a n ’ t t r i g g e r y o u r

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
d e l e g a ti o n u n t il a n e a r li e r b o d y h a s d o n e th e ir j o b a n d m a d e t h e ir
d e c is i o n t h a t g iv e s y o u t h e n e c e s s a r y s ta n d i n g o r y o u a r e t h e n
e m p o w e r e d t o tr ig g e r y o u r d e le g a ti o n a n d I m e n t io n e d e a r li e r e x a m p l e s
o f w h e r e c o n tr a c t s w e r e a lr e a d y a w a r d e d a n d y e t t h e t e n d e r p r o c e s s
w a s s ti ll u n d e r w a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

E x a c t ly, n o w i f y o u l o o k a l s o a t t h e f i ft h

b u ll e t p o i n t fr o m t h e b o t t o m w h e r e y o u ’r e ta lk in g a b o u t th e m u l ti p l e
r e p e t it iv e a w a r d s , t h e s a m e s u p p li e r, I t h in k t h a t ’s a ls o r e le v a n t , c a n
y o u t a k e th e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h a t o n e a n d e x p l a i n it , w h y w a s i t a
10

concern?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a ir I t h i n k i t is a c o n c e r n , n o t i n

t h e s e n s e t h a t th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r e s c r i p t s d o n ’t a ll o w f o r m o r e t h a n o n e
a w a r d . S o i f w e a ll r u n a r a c e a n d i t is a f a ir r a c e b u t o n e o f u s w i n s
t h e r a c e m o r e th a n o n c e , th a t d o e s n ’ t r e n d e r th e p r o c e s s u n f a i r b u t
w h e r e w e h a v e m u l ti p l e , r e p e ti t iv e a w a r d s t o t h e s a m e s u p p l ie r a n d i t i s
n o t c l e a r w h y th a t s u p p l ie r s p e c if ic a l ly w a s c h o s e n w h e n th e r e w e r e
o th e r e q u a ll y c o m p e t e n t a l te r n a tiv e s th e n i t b e c o m e s a r e d fl a g .

I’m

n o t s a y in g t h a t, t h a t i n i ts e l f r e n d e r s t h e p r o c e s s v o id o r i n v a l id b u t
w h e r e w e d o h a v e t h e s e m u l t ip l e a w a r d s i t d o e s r a i s e a r e d f la g to u s .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

A n d t h e y s h o u ld b e lo o k e d i n t o to c h e c k w h e t h e r

e v e r y t h i n g w a s d o n e fa ir l y a n d tr a n s p a r e n t ly.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

A n d w e w ill r e t u r n t o t h is , I th i n k ,

w i t h Mc K i n s e y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d w h e n t h is m u l ti p l e a w a r d s a r e

m a d e t o th e s a m e s u p p li e r u n d e r c o n f i n e m e n t w h a t d o y o u s a y ?

Page 91 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

W e ll t h e n i t b e c o m e s e v e n m o r e

p r o b le m a t ic , a n d t h a t is e x a c t ly th e Mc K i n s e y s c e n a r i o w h e r e y o u h a v e ,
I t h i n k it w a s e ig h t c o n fi n e m e n t s to t a l li n g e i t h e r 1 . 6 o r 1 .9 b il li o n r a n d i n
v a l u e a w a r d e d t o o n e e n ti ty.
phenomenon

o f m u lt i p l e

N o w i f w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h t h is

awards

a n d i t is

in

t h e c o n te x t o f a

c o n fi n e m e n t , w e ll t h a t ta k e s i t to a w h o l e d i ff e r e n t l e v e l o f s e r i o u s n e s s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y M r M o k o e n a , w e l l y o u c a n d e a l w i th t h is
la t e r if y o u p la n t o d e a l w i th i t la t e r b u t I ’ m k e e n t o tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d
10

t h e j u s ti f ic a ti o n t h a t w a s p r o v id e d b y t h e B o a r d i n g iv i n g t h is d e le g a te d
a u t h o r i ty p r o v i d i n g f o r c o n fi n e m e n t .

S o i f t h e y a r e g o i n g to b e d e a l t

w i t h l a te r o n I ’ m h a p p y t o w a i t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

M r C h a ir, m a y b e y o u s h o u l d w a it .

C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l a ll o w y o u t o s a y I m u s t w a i t M r M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

It is a very rare moment that I can do

it , t o t e l l th e C h a i r t o w a i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t j u s t p r o m is e t o c o v e r i t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I t w il l b e c o v e r e d C h a ir b e c a u s e i t ’s

q u i te i m p o r t a n t a n d i t d e a ls w it h s p e c i fic a w a r d s o f d i f f e r e n t s u p p li e r s .
20

N o w I k n o w t h a t y o u w a n t to m o v e t o t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n b l o c k b u t
b e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e , th e r e a r e o t h e r th in g s t h a t I th i n k t h a t y o u a r e
s i m p l y s k ip p in g th a t a r e v e r y c r u c i a l t o t h e e v i d e n c e – t o y o u r
t e s ti m o n y t h a t y o u w il l b e a d d u c in g b e f o r e t h is C o m m is s i o n . N o w i f y o u
g o t o t h e s e c o n d b u ll e t p o in t fr o m t h e b o t t o m y o u t a lk a b o u t “ p r e s s u r e
fr o m a b o v e ” .

Page 92 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , y e s .
I f y o u c a n e x p l a i n a n d e la b o r a t e t o t h e

C h a ir w h a t a r e y o u a r e a t t e m p ti n g t o c o n v e y b y s a y i n g th a t .
MR

PETER

STEPHEN

VOLMINK :

Pressure

fr o m

the

a b o v e . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e a b o v e is in in v e r te d c o m m a s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I t is in in v e r t e d c o m m a s y e s .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

C h a ir w h a t t h i s r e l a te s to is

p r e s s u r e t h a t g e t s b r o u g h t t o b e a r o n p r o c u r e m e n t o ffic i a ls fr o m v a r y
10

s e n i o r p e o p l e w it h in t h e o r g a n i s a t io n , i t c o u l d b e a t t h e l e v e l o f t h e
B o a r d , i t c o u ld b e a t t h e l e v e l o f E x c o o r p o s s ib ly t h e G C E o r C F O
e tc e t e r a a n d t h is o f t e n t a k e s th e fo r m o f s a y i n g t o o ffic i a ls t h a t th e r e i s
n o ti m e fo r a l o n g p r o c e s s t h a t w e h a v e g o t to b r i n g t h is p r o c e s s t o a n
e n d a n d y o u ’ v e g o t t o s p e e d u p th e p r o c e s s e tc e t e r a a n d v e r y o ft e n
t h e s e j u n i o r o ffic i a ls a r e f e a r f u l . T h e y d o n ’ t h a v e t h e s e n io r i ty o r t h e
a s s u r a n c e – t h e s e l f a s s u r a n c e t o s a y t o w h o e v e r, t h a t t h is i s n o t th e
w a y i t is g o in g t o b e d o n e a n d th is is i n e s s e n c e w h e n w e r e fe r t o a b o u t
“ p r e s s u r e fr o m a b o v e ” w h e r e w e h a v e u n d u e in f lu e n c e , r e a lly, b r o u g h t
t o b e a r o n o ff ic ia ls i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e ir w o r k .

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON : And that pressure from above could be genuine or not
g e n u i n e I i m a g i n e , i t c o u ld b e g e n u i n e b u t m i s t a k e n o r i t c o u l d b e n o t
g e n u i n e a n d i n t e n d e d to s e r v e il le g a l p u r p o s e s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

J a e x a c t ly s o n o t a l l p r e s s u r e is

n e c e s s a r i ly b a d .

Page 93 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

A l th o u g h w e a r i n g t h e p r o c e s s h a t I

h a v e s tr o n g l y a d v is e d th e E x e c u tiv e s n o t t o i n te r fe r e s i m p ly b e c a u s e
t h e y th in k t h a t t h e p r o c e s s is t a k i n g lo n g e r t h a n t h e y w o u l d p r e f e r a n d
e v a l u a t i o n o f a t e n d e r o f t e n is a ti m e c o n s u m i n g p r o c e s s a n d i f i t i s t o
b e d o n e c o r r e c tly t i m e a n d e ff o r t a n d r e s o u r c e s m u s t b e in v e s te d i n
t h a t e x e r c is e .

I’ m n o t s u g g e s t in g f o r a m o m e n t t h a t w e s h o u l d a l l o w

t e n d e r s to ta k e a s l o n g a s t h e y d o b e fo r e t h e y g e t a w a r d e d , s o m e o f i t
is u n a c c e p t a b l y lo n g b u t w e d o h a v e in t e r fe r e n c e i n t h e s e n s e t h a t
10

p e o p l e w a n t t o g e t t o th e r e s u l t q u ic k ly w it h o u t a n y c o r r u p t m o t iv e . I
h a v e l e s s o f a p r o b l e m w i t h th a t , I h a v e m o r e o f a p r o b l e m w h e n th e r e
is a s p e c i fi c o u tc o m e i n m in d a n d t h e r e ’s b e i n g p r e s s u r e b e i n g b r o u g h t
t o b e a r o n th e r e c o m m e n d i n g t e a m a n d I w ill c o m e t o th a t i n th e c o n t e x t
of

th e

award

to

Neotel

where

the

in it i a l

–

the

CFET

made

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o s a y l e t u s a w a r d to N e o t e l , T - S y s te m s i s n o t t h e
o n e w e w a n t to a w a r d t o a n d th e B o a r d c o n s t a n t ly r e je c te d t h a t a n d
e v e n t u a l ly t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n c h a n g e d a n d i t c a m e b a c k a s , le t u s
t h e n m a k e t h is a w a r d t o T- S y s t e m s . S o I t h i n k t h a t is a g o o d e x a m p le
o f p r e s s u r e fr o m a b o v e .
20

ADV PHILLIP

MOKOENA

SC :

Yo u

can

now

move

on

to

the

i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d j u s t b e b r ie f o n it .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

I ’ ll b e b r i e f C h a ir I’ ll m e n t io n – i f

t h e r e ’s a n y b u l le t p o i n ts t h a t I s k ip a n d c o u n s e l , p l e a s e , i f t h e r e ’s
a n y th in g th a t y o u w a n t m e to d e a l w i t h i n m o r e d e t a i l, p l e a s e d o s o b u t
I w il l c h e r r y - p i c k p e r h a p s . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .

Page 94 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:
m e n ti o n .

A f e w o f th e p o i n t s I w a n t e d to

I t h i n k t h e fir s t is ju s t p o o r c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t w h e r e w e

a r e n o w i n th e c o n tr a c t s ta g e – w e a r e in t h e i m p l e m e n t a t i o n s t a g e , t h e
c o n tr a c t is s u p p o s e d t o b e p r o p e r l y m a n a g e d b u t w e fi n d t h a t p e n a lt y
c la u s e s , b r e a c h c l a u s e s a r e n o t e n f o r c e d d e s p i te t h e f a c t t h a t w e h a v e
s u b - s t a n d a r d s e r v i c e b e in g p r o v i d e d a n d u n d e r t a k i n g s t h a t a r e m a d e
t h a t a r e n o t a d h e r e d t o b u t b e c a u s e o f p o o r c o n t r a c t m a n a g e m e n t th e r e
is n o e n e r g y p u t i n to e n f o r c i n g t h e s e b r e a c h c l a u s e s .
10

We also have

s u p p li e r s w h o m a d e p r ic e v e r y d i ff e r e n tly t o t h e p r i c i n g t h a t t h e y g a v e
u s i n t h e te n d e r p h a s e . S o w e g e t o v e r c h a r g e d , o v e r p r ic e d – g o o d s a r e
overpriced

and

I

think

because

of

poor

c o n tr a c t

management,

s o m e t i m e s , o u r o r g a n s o f S t a t e a r e s e e n a s c a s h c o w s a n d w e p a y fa r
m o r e t h a n w e o u g h t t o , h a d th e r e b e e n a f o c u s e d a n d d il ig e n t e ff o r t to
manage

contracts.

Th e

second

p e r ta in s

to

abuse

of

variation

p r o c e d u r e s , I’ v e m e n ti o n e d t h i s e a r li e r w h e r e a c o n t r a c t g e ts a w a r d e d
f o r X r a n d a n d b e f o r e y o u k n o w i t t h i s c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n i n c r e a s e d in
v a l u e . S o m e t i m e s t h e a m o u n ts , w h e n c o m p a r e d t o t h e o r i g in a l a m o u n t
a r e q u it e s t a g g e r i n g a n d C h a ir e v e n r e c e n tl y i n t h e c o n t e x t o f p r o v is io n
20

o f l e g a l s e r v ic e s w e h a v e s e e n h o w a c o n tr a c t a w a r d e d to a f ir m t o
p r o v i d e X s e r v ic e g r o w s i n s c o p e a n d i n v a l u e w h ic h is a v e r y tr o u b li n g
m a t t e r f o r m e b u t th a t is o n e o f t h e is s u e s w h i c h I th in k is o f g r e a t
c o n c e r n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n t h o s e c a s e s w h e r e th e p r ic e c h a n g e s o r t h e
s c o p e in c r e a s e s , t h e r e w o u l d h a v e h a d t o b e s o m e b o d y w i th i n t h e

Page 95 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c o m p a n y w h o is t h e o n e w h o m u s t a g r e e t o – o r th e e x p a n s i o n o f t h e
s c o p e o r t h e i n c r e a s e o f t h e p r i c e b e c a u s e th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r,
w h e t h e r i t ’s a la w fi r m o r a n y o t h e r s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r w o u l d h a v e n o r i g h t
t o u n i la t e r a l ly i n c r e a s e th e p r i c e o r th e s c o p e is n ’ t i t ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

Th a t is c o r r e c t , a c o n tr a c t – a

p r o c e s s o f c o n t r a c t v a r i a ti o n i s m e a n t t o f o l lo w – th e r e ’s a n o r d e r e d –
a n o r d e r ly p r o c e s s t h a t i s s u p p o s e d to b e f o ll o w e d . I f y o u w a n t t o a d d
o n a c e r ta i n v a l u e t o a c o n t r a c t i t m u s t b e a p p r o v e d b e f o r e t h a t
a m e n d m e n t i s m a d e b y th e p e r s o n w i t h d e le g a t e d a u t h o r i ty fo r c o n tr a c t
10

a m e n d m e n t t h a t I s p o k e – f o r c o n tr a c t a w a r d t h a t I s p o k e a b o u t e a r l i e r.
T h e n t r e a s u r y s a y s , i f y o u r v a r i a ti o n e x c e e d s 1 5 % o r 1 5 m i lli o n o f t h e
o r i g in a l c o n tr a c t v a lu e t h e n y o u a s Tr a n s n e t c a n ’ t m a k e th is d e c i s i o n b y
y o u r s e l f , i t m u s t t h e n b e e s c a l a t e d t o tr e a s u r y fo r p r i o r w r i t t e n a p p r o v a l
b e f o r e y o u c a n p r o c e e d a n d m y c o n c e r n is t h a t i n t h e in s t a n c e t h a t I
h a v e in m i n d , I h a v e n ’t s e e n e v i d e n c e o f t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I w o u ld i m a g i n e t h a t a b s e n t a n a g r e e m e n t
fr o m a n y b o d y fr o m t h e c o m p a n y t o t h e e x p a n s i o n o f t h e s c o p e o r t h e
in c r e a s e o f th e p r ic e , th e c o m p a n y w o u ld n o t b e o b li g e d t o p a y f o r t h e
e x p a n d e d p a r t o f t h e s c o p e o r t o p a y t h e p r ic e t h a t f a l ls o u ts i d e t h e

20

a g r e e d p r ic e .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t h a t is c o r r e c t, I m e a n , t h e r e

h a s to b e a l e g a l p r o c e s s f o r t h a t c o n tr a c t a m e n d m e n t t o b e p r o p e r ly
enforced.

T h e s i tu a ti o n t h a t I h a d i n m in d is w h e n p a y m e n t h a s to

h a p p e n a n d l e t ’s s a y th e s u p p l ie r c h a r g e d u s R 1 0 .0 0 a u n i t in h is R F P
d o c u m e n t h e s i t e s R 1 0 . 0 0 a u n i t b u t w h e n t h e in v o ic e c o m e s i t is

Page 96 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p e r h a p s a t s a y R 1 2 . 0 0 a u n it a n d b e c a u s e o f o u r in a d e q u a t e c o n t r a c t
m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s e s w e d o n ’ t a l w a y s p i c k u p th a t p r ic e v a r i a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h a t c o u l d b e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e t h e r e a r e ju s t
g e n u i n e w e a k n e s s e s w i th i n y o u r s y s te m o r y o u c o u ld b e d e a li n g w it h a
s i tu a ti o n w h e r e s o m e b o d y w i t h i n t h e s y s t e m h a s c o r r u p t m o t iv e s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

A g a in , b o th o f t h o s e s c e n a r io s

a p p ly, i t c o u ld ju s t b e p o o r b u t i n n o c e n t p r a c ti c e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

10

Ye s , y e s .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

O r mi s t a k e s b u t v e r y o f t e n t h e r e ’s

a d a r k e r m o t iv e t h a t le a d s to t h i s .

C h a ir a n d m a y b e t h e l a s t i t e m I’ ll

m e n ti o n , t h e s e c o n d l a s t p e r h a p s is , u n e x p l a i n e d s e s s i o n s t o th ir d
parties.

Th e r e ’s n o t h i n g i n h e r e n tly w r o n g w i th a s e s s io n b u t w h e n a

t e n d e r g e t s a w a r d e d t o A) y o u e x p e c t A ) t o b e p r o v id i n g t h is s e r v ic e ,
y e t o f t e n w e s e e t h a t A ) c e d e s t h a t c o n tr a c t o r p a r t o f t h e c o n tr a c t t o
B ) , n o w i t h a s t o b e w i t h Tr a n s n e t’s p r i o r k n o w l e d g e a n d a p p r o v a l b u t
c o m p a n y B) is n o t t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w e n t th r o u g h t h e r ig o r o u s te n d e r
p r o c e s s a n d I t h i n k th e r e n e e d s t o b e a h i g h e r l e v e l o f v i g i l a n c e b e f o r e
a g r e e i n g to a s e s s io n t h a t g o e s fr o m t h e w in n in g te n d e r e r t o s o m e
o th e r e n t i ty t h a t h a s n ’ t g o n e th r o u g h t h a t e v a l u a ti o n p r o c e s s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o n d e r – I w o n d e r w h e t h e r a s e s s i o n s u c h a s th e
o n e y o u ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t is c o m p a t ib le w i t h t h e w h o le n a t u r e o f a
t e n d e r, i s i t c o m p a t i b l e w i t h t h e w h o le n a t u r e a n d p u r p o s e o f a te n d e r
b e c a u s e w h a t ’s t h e p o i n t o f s e l e c ti n g fr o m l e t s a y 1 0 b i d d e r s – a
p a r t ic u l a r b i d d e r i f t h a t b id d e r c a n s u b s e q u e n tl y e n s u r e th a t , t h a t j o b is
d o n e b y s o m e b o d y – s o m e b o d y e ls e a n d n o t b y i t a n d s o m e b o d y w a s

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
not even among the 10 who had put in bids.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s a n d it ’s a v e r y i n te r e s t i n g

q u e s t io n th a t y o u r a is e a n d I m u s t s a y I ’ m n o t a w a r e o ff- h a n d o f a n y
case

la w

t h a t h a s s p e c i f ic a l ly

addressed

whether

a session

is

c o m p a ti b l e w i t h a f a ir t e n d e r in g p r o c e s s . I k n o w th a t w h e n th e s e R F P ’s
a r e i s s u e d t o th e m a r k e t i t c o m e s w i t h s t a n d a r d te r ms a n d c o n d i ti o n s
a n d u s u a l ly a d r a f t c o n tr a c t w h ic h c o n ta i n s a c la u s e w h ic h s a y s t h a t
w i t h Tr a n s n e t’s p r i o r a p p r o v a l t h a t t h e t e n d e r e r c o u l d c e d e o r t h a t
s e s s i o n w o u ld b e p e r m i t t e d s u b j e c t t o Tr a n s n e t ’s p r i o r a p p r o v a l w h ic h
10

is a fa ir l y c o m m o n p r a c t ic e I s u p p o s e i n t h e c o m m e r c i a l w o r l d b u t I
t h i n k t h e q u e s ti o n y o u a r e r a i s i n g is i f I f o ll o w e d a t e n d e r p r o c e s s t o
s e l e c t c o m p a n y A) a n d c o m p a n y A ) h a s m e t a ll t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts b u t
n o w c o m p a n y A ) c e d e s th a t c o n tr a c t to c o m p a n y B) w h o I h a v e n o t
e v a l u a t e d , is t h a t s til l a f a ir te n d e r p r o c e s s , I t h i n k w h a t w o u ld b e
r e q u ir e d i s t h a t i f w e w e r e t o a g r e e t o th is c e d e n t s te p p i n g in th a t t h e r e
w o u ld h a v e to b e a r o b u s t a n d t h o r o u g h e v a l u a t i o n o f a l l t h e c r i t e r i a
t h a t a p p li e d w h e n w e a w a r d e d to c o m p a n y A) . S o t h e r e c a n ’ t j u s t b e a
q u ic k , v e r y s u p e r fi c i a l a s s e s s m e n t o f th e c a p a c i ty o f t h e c e d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t c e r t a in ly c o u l d o p e n a n a v e n u e f o r a b u s e ,

20

c e r t a i n l y in c e r t a i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s , m a y b e n o t i n a ll b u t c e r t a in ly i n
c e r t a i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s c o u l d o p e n a n a v e n u e f o r a b u s e th a t c o u l d
undermine the whole tender process.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

A n d a ls o c o ll u s i o n C h a ir, b e c a u s e

c o m p a n y A) m a y w e ll h a v e a b a c k - to - b a c k a g r e e m e n t w i t h c o m p a n y B)
t o s a y, i f I w i n th e te n d e r I w i ll ju s t o p e n t h e d o o r fo r y o u to c o m e in .

Page 98 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

I th in g s e s s io n , w h il e i t is n o t a n

u n c o m m o n p r a c t ic e , I th i n k i f t h e r e is n ’ t a s u ff ic ie n t l e v e l o f v i g i la n c e
w e c a n o p e n o u r s e lv e s u p to v e r y a b u s iv e p r a c ti c e s i n t h i s r e g a r d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , M r Vo l mi n k I ’ m n o w g o i n g t o s h o r t -

c ir c u i t y o u r e v i d e n c e , t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n s l id e s I w ill t a k e t h e l ib e r ty o f
n o t t a k i n g y o u th r o u g h b e c a u s e I f e e l t h a t t h e is s u e s m i g h t h a v e
a lr e a d y b e e n t h o r o u g h ly i n t e r r o g a t e d b y i ts e l f , c a n I ta k e y o u th r o u g h
s li d e n u m b e r 1 8 a n d y o u c a n g iv e u s a s u m m a r y o f w h a t y o u a r e
10

c o n v e y in g i n th a t s l i d e .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir w h a t I’ m c o n v e y in g i n th is

s li d e is t h e e v a l u a t io n m e th o d o l o g y t h a t w a s f o l l o w e d in Tr a n s n e t
b e f o r e t h e P P P FA a p p li e d to Tr a n s n e t . I m e n ti o n e d t h a t o n t h e 7 t h o f
D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 a lr e a d y th e M i n i s te r o f F in a n c e in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e
P r e f e r e n t ia l P r o c u r e m e n t Fr a m e w o r k A c t a n d it s r e g u l a t i o n s w o u ld
a p p ly to Tr a n s n e t b u t e x e m p te d Tr a n s n e t f o r a p e r i o d o f 1 y e a r u n til 7
December 2012.

S o w h a t t h e – w h a t t h is s l i d e d e p ic t s i s th e

m e t h o d o l o g y th a t w a s f o l lo w e d i n Tr a n s n e t a r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 1 2 a n d
p r i o r. C h a ir y o u w i ll s e e t h a t t h e r e a r e t w o m e t h o d s , i t ’s r e f e r r e d t o a s
20

method 1 and method 2.

M e t h o d 1 w a s th e d e f a u l t m e t h o d a n d i t

f o ll o w s t h e c l a s s ic 2 p h a s e m e t h o d o lo g y o f th e p u b li c s e c to r. P h a s e 1
b e i n g t h a t y o u m u s t c l e a r c e r t a in t h r e s h o ld s a n d p h a s e 2 b e i n g y o u ’ll
n o w b e e v a l u a t e d o n p r ic e a n d p r e fe r e n c e , th a t ’s t h e t y p ic a l 2 s t a g e
p r o c e s s b u t b e c a u s e Tr a n s n e t w a s n o t b o u n d b y P P P FA t h e r e w e r e
c e r t a i n v a r ia n c e s

t h a t w e r e i n tr o d u c e d

Page 99 of 208

on

t h a t c l a s s ic

2 st age

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
m e t h o d o l o g y.

S o i f y o u l o o k a t m e t h o d 1 C h a ir, th e r e is a f ir s t

t h r e s h o ld w h ic h is m a r k e d i n r e d a n d t h e w o r d – a n d t h e le t t e r s L C
a p p e a r n e x t t o i t. L C s i m p ly s t a n d s f o r l o c a l c o n t e n t a n d w h e r e l o c a l
c o n te n t w a s r e q u ir e d , fo r e x a m p l e w i t h c e r ta i n d e s ig n a te d s e c t o r s ,
tr e a s u r y g a v e a l o n g l is t o f d e s i g n a t e d s e c t o r s w h e r e a b i d d e r h a d t o
c o m m i t a t a c e r ta in p e r c e n t a g e o f it s b id p r i c e w o u ld b e s p e n t i n R S A
a n d o n ly th o s e b i d d e r s w h o m e t th a t m i n i m u m w o u l d t h e n p a s s to t h e
second gate.

Th e s e c o n d t h r e s h o ld C h a ir, w a s m a d e u p o f a

c o m b in a ti o n o f w h a t i s r e fe r r e d to a s S D w h ic h s ta n d s fo r s u p p li e r
10

d e v e l o p m e n t a n d t h e B E E s c o r e c a r d . S o u n d e r s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t a
b i d d e r w o u l d b e a s k e d to in d i c a t e h o w m a n y – le t ’s s a y h o w m a n y n e w
jo b s th e y w o u l d c r e a t e a s a r e s u l t o f th e a w a r d o f t h e t e n d e r.

How

m a n y j o b s w o u ld b e p r e s e r v e d , h o w m a n y a r ti s a n s w o u ld b e tr a in e d ,
h o w m a n y l o c a l s u p p li e r s w o u l d b e u s e d . T h e r e w a s a w h o l e b u c k e t o f
in d i c a t o r s w h ic h f e ll u n d e r t h e h e a d in g s u p p li e r d e v e lo p m e n t a n d t h e n
p o i n t s w e r e g i v e n fo r t h a t a s w e l l a s th e B E E s c o r e c a r d s .

So if you

g o t – i f y o u w e r e a l e v e l 1 y o u w o u l d g e t y o u r f u ll p o in t s a n d t h a t w o u ld
f o r m a c o m b i n e d n u m b e r o f p o i n t s . Yo u w o u l d b e t o l d f o r e x a m p le a s a
b i d d e r y o u n e e d to m e e t 4 0 % b a s e d o n a c o m b i n a ti o n o f S D B E E a n d
20

o n ly t h o s e b id d e r s w h o t h e n p a s s e d w o u l d g e t to t h e – t o b e i n g
a s s e s s e d o n fu n c t io n a l i ty o r q u a li ty.
r e q u ir e m e n t s .

T h is is t h e t y p ic a l t e c h n ic a l

W h e n b i d d e r s p a s s e d a ll t h o s e g a te s t h e y w o u ld t h e n

g e t to th e s e c o n d p h a s e o f t h e t e n d e r w h e r e p r ic e w a s s c o r e d . A s w e l l
a s S D a n d p r e fe r e n c e w o u l d b e s c o r e d a t p h a s e 2 . I n p h a s e 1 i t is
s i m p l y a d is q u a li fi e r. Yo u n e e d t o m e e t a m i n i m u m t h r e s h o l d . In p h a s e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
2 t h e i d e a w a s t o d i ffe r e n ti a te b e tw e e n b i d d e r s w h o g iv e a s u p e r i o r S D
o ffe r i n g a n d t h o s e w h o j u s t m e t , m e t t h e b a s i c s .
u n d e r l y i n g r a t io n a l e .

T h a t w a s th e

A n d u n d e r p r e f e r e n c e p o i n ts w o u l d b e g i v e n

b a s e d o n t h e s c o r e c a r d a s w e l l a s t e r m s w h ic h I t h in k a r e p r o b a b ly
u n i q u e Tr a n s n e t t e r m s a t t h a t p o i n t.

W e s a i d i n a d d it i o n t o t h e

s c o r e c a r d . P o i n ts w o u ld b e g iv e n f o r w h a t w a s c a ll e d FR C c u r r e n t a n d
F R C s i m p ly m e a n s F u r t h e r R e c o g n i t io n C r it e r i a .

T h e id e a w a s to s a y

we see your BEE scorecard but your BEE scorecard could have been
is s u e d u p u n ti l a y e a r a g o .
10

B e c a u s e a B E E s c o r e c a r d is v a li d f o r a

y e a r. S o i f I e v a lu a t e t h e s c o r e c a r d to d a y it m a y d e p i c t y o u r s i t u a t io n a
y e a r a g o o r u p t o a y e a r a g o . B u t t h e id e a w it h FR C c u r r e n t w a s to s a y
t e ll

us

what

is

your

current

black

ownership

or

your

current

m a n a g e m e n t c o n tr o l o r e m p lo y m e n t e q u i ty. A n d to t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u
e x c e e d e d c e r t a i n m i n i m u m t a r g e ts t h a t w e r e s e t y o u c o u l d e a r n a f e w
e x tr a l e t u s j u s t c a ll i t b o n u s p o in ts f o r la c k o f a b e t te r w o r d . T h a t w a s
r e fe r r e d t o a s F u r t h e r R e c o g n i ti o n C r i t e r i a c u r r e n t a n d th e n a ls o t h e r e
w a s s o m e th i n g c a l l e d F R C fu t u r e Fu r t h e r R e c o g n i t io n C r i t e r i a f u t u r e .
T h i s w o u ld a p p ly w h e r e a b id d e r m a y h a v e a v e r y lo w B E E s c o r e a t t h e
m o m e n t b u t h e s a y s o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f th i s c o n t r a c t p e r i o d i n f u t u r e b y
20

t h e e n d o f t h is c o n tr a c t I g iv e a n u n d e r t a k i n g w h i c h y o u c a n i n c o r p o r a t e
in t o th e c o n tr a c t w i t h m e I g iv e a n u n d e r t a k in g t o i m p r o v e m y b l a c k
o w n e r s h i p , b l a c k m a n a g e m e n t t o c e r t a in l e v e ls .
c o n c e p t a r o u n d m e th o d 1 .

T h a t w a s I t h i n k th e

M e t h o d 2 I w i ll n o t r e a l ly d e a l w i t h th a t .

T h a t is r e a ll y w h e r e q u a l it y w a s b r o u g h t i n to o p e r a t i o n a g a i n i n p h a s e
2 . T h a t w a s v e r y s e l d o m i f e v e r a p p l ie d .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t t h a t is b a s ic a l ly th e m e t h o d o lo g y
w h ic h a p p l ie d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : And slide 21.
CHAIRPERSON : I am sorry before that..
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Yo u s a i d 2 1 .
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m s o r r y b e f o r e t h a t i n s li d e 1 8 y o u d o h a v e

r e fe r e n c e to q u a li ty b o th u n d e r m e t h o d 1 a n d m e t h o d 2 .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s . S o , s o I t h i n k w i t h m e th o d 1 w e
10

t e s t q u a l it y o n c e . I t i s b y w a y o f a th r e s h o ld .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e t h r e s h o ld o h o k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s i f y o u m a k e t h a t. .
CHAIRPERSON :

E v e r y t h i n g u n d e r m e t h o d 1 is f o r t h r e s h o l d , b a s ic

r e q u ir e m e n t s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t . S o q u a l i ty w o u l d b e b y w a y
o f o n e t h r e s h o l d . Yo u m u s t m a k e t h a t t h r e s h o l d b e in g 7 0 % .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O r w h a t e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : With method 2
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e r e w e r e c e r ta in i n s t a n c e s w h e r e

w e s a id w e w a n t t o n o t to ju s t c h e c k w h o m e e ts th e b a s ic
CHAIRPERSON : Ja you want to see how much above the basic
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e b a s i c e x a c tl y

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g o .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ex a c t ly a n d c e r t a i n p o in ts
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Were then allocated under phase 2.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o w b e c a u s e w e w e r e e x c e p t e d fr o m
P P P FA I t h in k t h e c o u r ts a t o n e s ta g e h a d s a i d y o u c a n n o t r e v is i t t h i s
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STE PHEN VOLMINK:
10

Q u a l it y a g a in b u t w e w e r e n o t

s u b j e c t to P P P FA s o th e r e w a s a d e g r e e o f fl e x ib il i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Around that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e c a n n o w g o t o s l id e 2 1 .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Did you say 21?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s 2 1 .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : 21 yes.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O n p a g e 11 7 .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir t h i s is …

20

CHAIRPERSON : I am sorry on what page?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 11 7 , p a g e 11 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w y o u a r e d e a li n g w i th t h e s i t u a ti o n

around 2013/2015.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 5 C h a ir.

Page 103 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Th is is n o w w h e n P P P FA a p p l ie d t o

u s s o w e c a n n o t ig n o r e P P P FA .

A n d w h a t th is s i m p l y d e p ic ts is a

s e r ie s o f s t e p s w h ic h i s n o w m o r e a li g n e d t o P P P FA . W h a t w e s h o w i s
that bidders

fi r s t h a d

r e s p o n s iv e n e s s

test.

to

So

move
you

through

had

to

a

p r e q u a l i fi c a t io n

provide

a ll

your

or

a

r e le v a n t

d o c u m e n ts , m e e t m i n i m u m p r e q u a li f ic a ti o n c r it e r i a b e f o r e y o u c o u l d
e n t e r n o w p h a s e 1 b e i n g th e th r e s h o l d p h a s e .

And phase 1 would

c o n s i s t a g a in o f l o c a l c o n t e n t a n d fu n c t i o n a li ty o r t e c h n ic a l c r it e r ia .
10

We

were

–

we

engaged

senior

counsel

on

whether

s u p p li e r

d e v e l o p m e n t c o u l d a ls o b e in c o r p o r a te d a s a th r e s h o l d a t t h a t p h a s e 1
a n d b a s e d o n c o u n s e l ’s i n t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h e le g is l a ti o n t h e y f e l t th a t i t
w o u ld n o t b e i n c o m p a t i b l e t o a ll o w f o r th a t th r e s h o l d t o b e a p p l ie d in
p h a s e 1 s o S D w a s b r o u g h t i n in p h a s e 1 . A n d th e n i n p h a s e 2 C h a ir it
w a s m o r e c l a s s ic P P P FA w h e r e w e a w a r d e d s i m p ly o n p r ic e a n d B E E .
N o F R C o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t w a s t h e n t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t b e c a u s e t h a t
w a s n o t c o m p a t ib le w i t h t h e l e g is la t io n . W e w o u l d th e n i n v i t e b i d d e r s
t o p r o v i d e u s w i th w h a t is c a ll e d b a f o ’s o r b e s t a n d fi n a l o ff e r s . A n d
t h e n a fi n a l e v a l u a t io n b a s e d o n e i th e r 8 0 / 2 0 o r 9 0 / 1 0 a n d th a t is w h e n
20

the – the award would be made.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . M a y I n o w r e f e r y o u t o y o u r s li d e
2 4 w h e n y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e Tr a n s n e t c u r r e n t r e m e d ia l a c ti o n p l a n s ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Ye s .

C h a ir I th in k w h a t I s i m p ly

m e n ti o n o n th is s li d e is th a t th e r e h a v e b e e n v a r i o u s r e m e d ia l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t is t h e o n e o n p a g e 1 2 0 ?

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s 1 2 0 C h a ir.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : 120.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : 120.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

The – there have been various

r e m e d i a l s t e p s th a t h a v e b e e n t a k e n b y t h e c u r r e n t b o a r d a n d
m a n a g e m e n t to a d d r e s s t h e is s u e s w i t h i n Tr a n s n e t. I w il l m e n t i o n o n ly
a fe w o f th e m . I n t h e f o u r t h b u ll e t p o i n t I t a lk a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t t h is
s u b - c o m m i t t e e o f th e b o a r d , t h e a c q u is i t i o n a n d d is p o s a ls c o m m i t te e
10

that was delegated to award tenders that that committee has been
d is s o lv e d . I n t h e n e x t b u ll e t p o in t I m e n ti o n e d th e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f t h e
fi n a n c e a n d i n v e s t m e n t c o m m i t t e e w i t h a m a n d a t e t o in c l u d e o v e r s i g h t
o f p r o c e s s e s f o r h i g h v a lu e t e n d e r s . T h e n e x t b u ll e t p o i n t ta lk s a b o u t
a n i n te g r a t e d a s s u r a n c e p la n w h e r e a s s u r a n c e n e e d s t o b e p r o v i d e d b y
a n u m b e r o f r o le p l a y e r s w i t h i n s u p p ly c h a i n . N o t j u s t o n e p a r tic u la r
role.

S o m a n a g e m e n t m u s t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is i ts a s s u r a n c e r o l e ?

W h a t c a n i t a s s u r e w h e n a t e n d e r p a s s e s s a y th e C P O ? T h e n th e C P O
s a y s t h is te n d e r w e c a n is s u e t h i s t e n d e r to th e m a r k e t , w h a t is t h e
a s s u r a n c e th a t m u s t b e p r o v id e d ?
20

W h a t is t h e r o l e o f l e g a l r is k a n d

c o m p li a n c e a n d h o w d o th e y a ll w o r k i n t h is i n t e g r a t e d w a y ?

That is

w h a t th e i n t e g r a t e d a s s u r a n c e p l a n t a lk s a b o u t . I a l s o m e n ti o n t h a t t h e
d e l e g a ti o n s

of

a u th o r i ty

have

been

r e v is e d

to

i d e n t if y

th o s e

w e a k n e s s e s t h a t h a v e b e e n e x p l o i t e d i n t h e p a s t a s w e ll a n d m a y b e t h e
la s t b u ll e t p o i n t t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f a l if e s ty le a u d i t p o lic y w h ic h h a s
b e e n a p p l i e d r e c e n tly. C h a ir t h e l a s t s li d e – s o r r y Mr M o k o e n e I a m n o t

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
s u r e i f y o u a r e th e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

T h e l a s t s li d e th e o n e w h e r e y o u a r e

d e a li n g w i t h y o u r r e c o m m e n d a t io n s . It is s li d e 2 6 C h a ir it is p a g e 1 2 2 .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

C h a ir s o o n th is s li d e I m a k e a

c o u p l e o f r e c o m m e n d a t io n s b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n o b s e r v i n g t h is f o r a
w h il e . A n d th e f ir s t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t I m a k e is t h a t s u p p ly c h a i n
n e e d s t o b e e l e v a te d t o t h e l e v e l o f th e E X C O . A t t h e m o m e n t s u p p ly
c h a i n is r e p r e s e n t e d b y th e C h ie f Fi n a n c ia l O ff ic e r a t E X C O .

And I

t h i n k t h e C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r w i ll d o h i s b e s t to a r t ic u l a te w h a t e v e r
10

the concerns are of supply chain.

B u t s u p p ly c h a i n n e e d s a v o i c e a t

t h e h i g h e s t l e v e l o f t h e o r g a n is a t i o n w h ic h is t h e b o a r d w e ll a p a r t fr o m
– a n d I – w h ic h is t h e E X C O a p a r t fr o m t h e b o a r d o f c o u r s e . A n d i t is
at

that

level

where

I

th i n k

we

need

to

ensure

that

there

is

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n . T h e s e c o n d b u ll e t p o in t C h a ir th a t I r e c o m m e n d is t h a t
t h e b o a r d s a n d t h e E X C O ’s m u s t r e c e iv e i n - d e p t h s u p p ly c h a i n
m a n a g e m e n t t r a in i n g . W e h a v e s e e n t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m s o r r y M r Vo l m i n k c a n w e g o b a c k t o y o u r fir s t

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

A t a p r a c tic a l l e v e l h o w s h o u ld t h a t h a p p e n n a m e l y

p r o v i d in g r e p r e s e n ta t i o n a t – o f S C M a t E X C O l e v e l ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

I t h in k p r a c t ic a l ly C h a i r t h e r e is a

p o s i ti o n th a t is r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e G r o u p S u p p ly C h a in O ff ic e r. T h i s is
t h e C P O f o r l a c k w h o h a s b r o a d o v e r s i g h t o v e r t h e o t h e r C P O ’s a n d
t h is is a p o s i ti o n c u r r e n tl y a t th e c o r p o r a t e le v e l . A n d I a m s u g g e s t in g

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h a t t h a t in d iv i d u a l w h o o c c u p i e s t h a t p o s i ti o n s h o u l d i n f a c t b e p a r t o f
t h e E X C O t e a m . S u p p l y c h a in is n o t a b a c k o ffi c e f u n c ti o n . If w e g e t
s u p p ly

c h a in

wrong

it

has

fa r

reaching

r a m if ic a ti o n s

for

th e

o r g a n i s a t io n a n d I t h i n k i t w o u ld a p p r o p r ia t e f o r s u p p ly c h a i n t o b e
r e p r e s e n t e d a t t h e E X C O le v e l .
CHAIRPERSON :

M a y b e th e r e c o u ld b e o n e o f t w o p o s s ib l e – t h e r e

could be two possible scenarios.

Maybe one would be representation

o f S C M a t E X C O le v e l i n t h e s e n s e t h a t o n e o f th e E X C O m e m b e r s
m u s t b e a n S C M p e r s o n w h i c h m a y b e w h a t y o u a r e h a v i n g i n m in d .
10

B u t a n o t h e r o n e m a y w e ll b e th a t t h e r e n e e d n o t b e t h a t k in d o f
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a t E X C O l e v e l b u t t h a t w h e n e v e r E X C O h a s t o d e a l w i th
S C M m a t t e r s th e y s h o u l d b e in s u c h a m e e ti n g s o m e b o d y w i t h S C M
e x p e r t is e . A r e y o u – a r e y o u m a r r ie d t o a n y p a r t ic u l a r o n e o f t h a t k i n d
o f v o i c e a t E X C O l e v e l S C M v o ic e o r n o t n e c e s s a r i ly b u t y o u m i g h t
p r e f e r o n e o r th e o t h e r o r e i th e r s h o u l d b e a d e q u a t e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : H ’ m . I t h i n k t h a t b o t h – b o th m o d e ls
a r e a c c e p t a b l e . I a m m o r e in c l in e d t o th e f ir s t m o d e l w h e r e t h e r e is a
permanent presence of SCM at the EXCO level.

W h e n i f a p a r t ic u l a r

m a t t e r g e ts r a is e d b y E x e c u t iv e X t h e S C M p e r s o n c a n a l e r t th e E X C O
20

t o c e r t a in s u p p ly c h a i n i m p li c a t io n s o r r a m i fi c a t io n s r a t h e r t h a n s a y in g
w e w il l c a l l in t h a t p e r s o n a s a n d w h e n t h e r e is a n it e m o n S C M ’s
s p e c i f ic a l ly t o b e d is c u s s e d . Ve r y o f t e n d e c i s i o n s t h a t a r e m a d e h a v e
s u p p ly c h a i n r a m i fi c a t io n s .

I t m a y n o t b e u n d e r th e h e a d i n g o n t h e

a g e n d a t h a t s a y s s u p p l y c h a in b u t i f t h e r e i s a p e r m a n e n t p r e s e n c e o n
E X C O it i s p r o b a b l y m o r e l ik e ly th a t E X C O c o u l d b e a l e r te d t o s u p p ly

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c h a i n r a m if ic a ti o n s o r i m p lic a ti o n s o f i ts d e c is io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll o n e th o u g h t w h ic h c o m e s to m i n d is t h a t w h i l e a
p e r m a n e n t S C M r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a t E X C O m i g h t b e g o o d b u t o n e
a r g u m e n t a g a i n s t i t m i g h t b e t h a t t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r s tr e a m s , u n i ts
w i t h i n t h e e n t ir e c o m p a n y w h i c h a ls o f e e l th a t t h e y s h o u l d b e
r e p r e s e n t e d a t E X C O le v e l a n d – a n d th e c o n c e r n w o u ld a r i s e h o w b ig
w i ll t h i s E X C O e n d u p b e i n g i f i t is g o in g t o d o t h a t ?

Whereas if you

s a y e v e n i f w e a r e n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t p e r m a n e n t r e p r e s e n ta t io n b u t in
r e g a r d t o c e r t a i n m a t t e r s t h a t f a ll u n d e r t h e s e E X C O m u s t b r in g in a n
10

S C M p e r s o n to – to b e p a r t o f t h a t d is c u s s io n s o th a t w h a t e v e r d e c is i o n
is t a k e n t h e y h a v e t h e b e n e fi t o f t h a t i n p u t . T h e n y o u d o n o t h a v e t h a t
o th e r a r g u m e n t i n th a t c a s e .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

I h e a r y o u C h a ir.

Of course the

d i ff e r e n c e w i t h S C M
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I s t h a t i t p o s e s s u c h a – a c r i t ic a l

r is k
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To th e c o m p a n y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN

VOLMINK :

P e r h a p s u n lik e a l l t h e o t h e r

functions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

T h e y c o u l d p o te n t ia lly w a n t to b e

t h e r e a s w e ll .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . J a it m a y w e l l b e th a t i t i s th e r i g h t w a y t o
go.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m j u s t p u t t in g p o s s i b l e a r g u m e n ts fo r r e fl e c t io n .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

A n d I t h i n k th a t b o t h o u g h t t o b e

considered.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s o k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I w a s m a k i n g th e p o i n t o f c o u r s e t h a t
in t h e s e c o n d b u l le t p o i n t t h a t i t i s r e a ll y a t t h e l e v e l o f b o a r d a n d
10

E X C O t h a t w e h a v e s e e n th e m o s t s p e c t a c u l a r b r e a c h e s o f g o v e r n a n c e
processes happens there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t Tr a n s n e t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

T h a t i s w h e r e t h e m o s t b r e a c h e s o r th e m o s t

s e r io u s b r e a c h e s a s f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e w e r e h a p p e n i n g ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d I a m n o t s a y in g t h a t i t d o e s n o t
h a p p e n a t t h e o ff ic i a l l e v e ls .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C e r t a i n ly o ffi c i a l s h a v e m a d e t h e ir

f a ir s h a r e o f c o n t r i b u t io n t o
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

To t h is b u t t h e m o s t s p e c ta c u l a r

e x a m p l e s h a v e h a p p e n e d th e r e .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d i t is a t t h a t le v e l
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

W h e r e a l m o s t n o in p u t , n o tr a i n i n g ,

n o a w a r e n e s s o f s u p p l y c h a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

A n d i t is t h e m u lt i p l ic i t y o f r u l e s

g o v e r n in g s u p p ly c h a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Is n o t – i s n o t b r o u g h t t o th e

a tt e n ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

I m e n ti o n o f c o u r s e t r a n s p a r e n c y.

N o w w e h a v e l a w s g o v e r n i n g tr a n s p a r e n c y b u t t r e a s u r y h a s r e c e n t ly
in d i c a t e d in o n e o f th e i n s tr u c ti o n n o te s t h a t th e y a c tu a lly r e s e r v e t h e
r ig h t t o i n v i t e t h e p u b li c t o a b id a d ju d ic a t i o n c o m m i t t e e a n d i t m a y w e l l
b e s o m e t h i n g w h ic h s h o u l d ta k e o n g r e a t e r m o m e n t u m a s w e – a s w e
g o f o r w a r d . I m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e r e g u la t o r y fr a m e w o r k n e e d s t o b e
fi x e d C h a ir.
20

I h a v e i n d ic a t e d th a t w e j u s t n e e d fa r g r e a t e r c o h e r e n c e

a n d fa r g r e a te r c l a r i t y o n t h is o c e a n o f r e g u la t o r y r e q u ir e m e n ts w h ic h
g o v e r n s s u p p ly c h a i n .

W e n e e d a lo t m o r e – w e n e e d th e w h o l e

p r o c e s s t o b e r a t io n a l is e d a l o t m o r e . I a ls o m e n ti o n e d th is n o t io n o f
a d d r e s s i n g t h e b u l ly in g c u l tu r e . I h a v e s p o k e n e a r li e r a b o u t p r e s s u r e
fr o m a b o v e .

W h a t I a m r e a ll y t a lk i n g a b o u t is b u l ly i n g w h e r e

e m p l o y e e s a r e b u ll ie d t o c o m p l y w i t h t h i n g s t h a t t h e y k n o w t o b e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
w r o n g . A n d I h a v e e v e n s u g g e s t e d t h a t i t – t h a t t h e le g i s l a tu r e s h o u l d
p e r h a p s c o n s id e r t h a t i t s h o u l d b e a d i s m is s i b l e o ffe n c e f o r a – fo r a
s e n i o r e x e c u ti v e o r a n y o n e e l s e t o b r i n g u n d u e p r e s s u r e t o b e a r o n
o ffic i a ls t o d o th i n g s w h i c h a r e c o n tr a r y t o t h e r e g u l a t o r y r e q u ir e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t m u s t b e a d i s m i s s i b l e th i n g w i t h o u t a n y …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr o b a b ly w i t h o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e g is la t u r e .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I m e a n o b v i o u s l y i f t h e u n d u e p r e s s u r e w e ll I
10

d o n o t k n o w i f i t w o u ld b e u n d u e b u t i f th e p r e s s u r e is b a s e d o n
le g i t i m a te c o n s id e r a ti o n s a n d th e r e r e a ll y is n o t h i n g n e fa r i o u s a b o u t
that.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
CHAIRPERSON :

It

may

be

ta k e n

as

l e g i ti m a t e

pressure

on

s u b o r d in a t e s fo r e x a m p le t o n o t to d e l a y c e r ta i n t h i n g s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t s a y i n g t h e y m u s t n o t c o m p ly w i t h p r o c e d u r a l
r e q u ir e m e n t s .

B u t o n c e y o u h a v e p r e s s u r e t h a t is b e i n g p u t o n

s u b o r d in a t e s fo r i ll e g i ti m a t e r e a s o n s , f o r n e f a r io u s r e a s o n s th a t m u s t
20

b e d i s m is s ib l e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : J a . I f u l ly a g r e e s o I m e a n e v e n a t
the moment.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I t w o u ld n o t a s s is t s o m e o n e c h a r g e d
w i t h t h is s o r t o f b u ll y i n g .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To s a y n o b u t t h e r e is n o – t h e r e i s
n o le g is l a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t c o v e r s i t. W h a t I a m s a y i n g is
t o m a k e i t – to m a k e it c l e a r e r a n d t o s e n d a c l e a r m e s s a g e a t th e
e x e c u tiv e l e v e l e v e n if i t is i n th e f o r m o f a n a ti o n a l tr e a s u r y in s t r u c t i o n
o r s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e c a n s a y th is is t h e e x p e c ta t io n o f y o u . Yo u w il l
n o t b r i n g y o u r s e n i o r it y t o b e a r to g e t s u p p ly c h a i n p e o p l e t o d o t h i n g s
10

w h ic h a r e c o n tr a r y t o th e p r e s c r i p t s . I t h i n k i t w o u l d h e l p t o f o c u s t h e
mind.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja.

W e l l p a r t o f w h a t i s i m p o r t a n t is to m a k e s u r e

t h a t a t t h e t o p y o u h a v e t h e r i g h t p e o p l e . P e o p l e w h o h a v e i n te g r i ty.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
CHAIRPERSON :

B e c a u s e i f y o u h a v e t h e r i g h t p e o p l e a t t h e to p a n d

s o m e b o d y b e l o w tr i e s t o d o s o m e t h i n g w r o n g a s u b o r d i n a te w i ll k n o w
t h a t i f I r e p o r t to t h e t o p w h a t t h i s o n e i s d o i n g t o m e , p u t ti n g u n d u e
p r e s s u r e t h e y w il l d e a l w i t h t h is p r o p e r ly. B u t i f t h e s u b o r d i n a t e k n o w s
t h a t i f I g o t o t h e t o p th e y a r e – t h e y a r e n o t p e o p l e o f i n te g r i t y t h e n
20

t h e e m p l o y e e , t h e s u b o r d i n a t e d o e s n o t h a v e t h e i n c e n t iv e t o – t o
r e p o r t t h is . S o – b u t i t m a y b e t h a t i t is a c o m b i n a t io n o f t h i n g s t h a t
n e e d s to b e l o o k e d a t.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o m b in a ti o n . C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o p a r t ic u l a r o n e i s a n a n s w e r t o a ll p r o b l e m s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s p r e c is e ly. I m a y b e j u s t m e n ti o n

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
o n e m o r e a n d th a t is t h e r e s h o u l d p e r h a p s b e s o m e i n d e p e n d e n t b o d y
t h a t is c r e a t e d to r e v i e w p r o c u r e m e n t d e c i s io n s p a r t ic u l a r l y w h e n t h e r e
a r e c o m p la i n t s w h ic h c o m e s fr o m u n s u c c e s s f u l b i d d e r s . A t th e m o m e n t
s u p p li e r s m u s t r u n to – t o c o u r t fo r r e v i e w.

We do have an internal

o m b u d f u n c ti o n w h e r e c o m p l a in ts a r e r e f e r r e d to e x t e r n a l a t to r n e y s f o r
r e v ie w a n d c o n s id e r a ti o n b u t i f t h e r e is a n o ffic ia l b o d y w h ic h c o u l d
s e r v e a s s o m e s o r t o f a d j u d ic a to r y b o d y w it h d e c is i o n p o w e r s I th i n k i t
w o u ld – i t w o u l d g iv e g r e a t e r c o n f id e n c e t o s u p p li e r s t o b r i n g t h e ir
c o m p la i n t s f o r w a r d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h a t – t h a t m ig h t b e q u i t e h e l p fu l b e c a u s e w h e n
t h e s e m a t t e r s g o t o c o u r t s t h e y ta k e lo n g t o b e r e s o lv e d .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e c o u r t s y s t e m t a k e s lo n g a n d – a n d i n th e
m e a n t i m e y o u m ig h t h a v e a c o m m u n i ty t h a t is e n t i tl e d o r e x p e c ts a
c e r t a i n s e r v i c e t o b e r e n d e r e d a n d t h a t s e r v ic e c a n n o t b e r e n d e r e d f o r
x n u m b e r o f y e a r s b e c a u s e th e r e is s t il l a d is p u te g o i n g t h r o u g h th e
c o u r ts . B u t o f c o u r s e – w e ll I h a p p e n t o k n o w t h a t t h e l e a d e r s h i p o f t h e
ju d i c i a r y, t h e h e a d s o f th e s u p e r i o r c o u r ts , th e h i g h c o u r t s , t h e a p p e a l
c o u r ts a n d t h e c o n s t i tu t io n a l c o u r t d i d ta k e a d e c is i o n a f e w y e a r s a g o

20

t o s a y t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t h e a d s o f c o u r t m u s t b e a b l e to e x p e d i te c e r t a i n
m a t t e r s a n d I t h in k s o m e o f th o s e m a t t e r s a r e te n d e r m a t te r s if I a m n o t
m is t a k e n s o t h a t t h e y s h o u ld n o t h a v e f o ll o w e d t h e l o n g r o u t e a n d
m a y b e l a w y e r s d o n o t u s e th a t o r a r e n o t a w a r e o f th a t b e c a u s e t h e
a tt e m p t is t o tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u k n o w t h e s e t e n d e r d i s p u t e s d o
n o t t a k e t o o l o n g b e f o r e t h e y a r e r e s o lv e d .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d C h a ir I t h i n k th a t w e w o u ld

a l w a y s w a n t t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s a c c e s s to t h e c o u r ts o f c o u r s e t h a t
a n a g g r ie v e d b i d d e r k n o w s t h a t i t i s h i s u l ti m a t e r e f u g e b u t th e i n te r n a l
p r o c e s s e s c a n b e – c a n b e s p e e d e d u p b u t i f t h e r e is – b e f o r e w e e v e n
g e t t o c o u r ts i f t h e r e is a n a lt e r n a tiv e m e c h a n is m i n p la c e a c r e d i b le
m e c h a n is m h o p e f u l ly e v e n w i th s t a t u t o r y p o w e r s I t h i n k i t w o u l d h e l p
a g g r ie v e d b i d d e r s .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

O f c o u r s e w h i le th a t m i g h t b e h e l p f u l w h a t w il l h a v e

t o b o r n e i n m i n d is t h a t y o u c o u l d w e ll e n d u p w i t h e v e n a lo n g e r
w a i ti n g p e r i o d b e c a u s e w h a t y o u w o u l d b e s a y in g is i f y o u a r e
d is s a t is fi e d w i t h th e d e c i s i o n to a w a r d a t e n d e r t o X b e fo r e y o u g o to
c o u r t y o u m u s t g o t o t h is b o d y a n d t h i s b o d y ta k e s a c e r t a i n ti m e m a k e s
a d e c is io n a n d m a y b e y o u a r e s t il l d is s a ti s f ie d s o y o u m u s t s t il l g o to
c o u r t a n y w a y s o y o u h a v e m a d e th e p r o c e s s m u c h lo n g e r.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – b u t a ll o f t h e m n e e d s t o – n e e d t o b e c o n s i d e r e d
t o s e e h o w b e s t t o ta k e y o u r v a r i o u s i n t e r e s t s .
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Ja.
ADV

PHILLIP

MOKOENA

SC :

Ta k e

us

th r o u g h

your

next

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I t h in k t h e o n ly r e m a i n i n g o n e s I w i ll
m e n ti o n is th e i m p o r t a n c e o f c o n t in u o u s a s s e s s m e n t o f c o m p e t e n c i e s
a n d e n s u r i n g c o n t in u o u s tr a i n i n g a n d d e v e l o p m e n t .

Page 114 of 208

C h a ir I t h i n k t h a t

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h e o r d i n a r y s u p p ly c h a in b u y e r w a n t s t o b e d e v e l o p e d . T h e y w a n t t o
d o t h e r i g h t t h i n g b u t v e r y o f t e n t h e y – tr a i n i n g a n d d e v e l o p m e n t d o e s
n o t h a p p e n a s fr e q u e n t ly a s is r e q u i r e d a n d I t h i n k th e r e n e e d s t o b e
p o s s i b ly f u l l t i m e c a p a c i t y b u il t i n to th e S O C ’s t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e is
o n g o i n g a s s e s s m e n t o f c o m p e t e n c ie s a n d a n e n h a n c e m e n t o f s k il l.

I

m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r t h a t w h il s t m a n y o f o u r p r o b l e m s a r e d u e to n e f a r i o u s
m o t iv e s a n d c o r r u p t io n a g o o d c h u n k o f o u r p r o b l e ms is a s a r e s u l t o f
in n o c e n t b u n g l in g a n d a d m i n i s t r a t iv e m i s t a k e s .

And I think if we can

le s s e n t h a t b y h e i g h te n in g t h e l e v e l o f s k i lls a n d a w a r e n e s s I th i n k w e
10

w o u ld d o w e l l . P e r h a p s I w il l s to p o n t h is p o i n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Now may I refer you to Exhibit

B B 2 . 1 A t h e v e r y s a m e d o c u m e n t b u t p le a s e g o to p a g e 4 .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : I am on page 4.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u w ill s e e …
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l M r M o k o e n e I c a n n o t h e lp b u t s a y th a t i t f e e ls

lik e a f t e r w e h a v e g o n e t h a t f a r li k e g o i n g b a c k to s q u a r e o n e . Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t w i ll b e – i f y o u g o t o p a g e 4 M r

Vo l m i n k y o u w i ll s e e th a t t h r o u g h t h e s li d e s y o u h a v e c o v e r e d q u i te a
great deal of your evidence.
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e a r e n o t g o in g to r e p e a t t h o s e t h i n g s
that you have said under governance and you can then go to page 8
ju s t f o r c o m p l e te n e s s t o g iv e u s t h e s tr u c t u r e o f th e g o v e r n a n c e
function.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t h e – o n p a g e 8 I s i m p l y

Page 115 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
h i g h l ig h t h o w t h e g o v e r n a n c e fu n c t io n is s tr u c t u r e d . I m a k e t h e p o i n t
t h a t t h e g o v e r n a n c e f u n c ti o n r e p o r t s in t o t h e c h i e f s u p p l y c h a i n o ffi c e r
a n d a t th e m o m e n t a t th e c o r p o r a te c e n tr e i t c o n s is ts o f a v e r y s m a l l
team.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y m y – m y c o p y is n o t v e r y c l e a r i n t e r m s o f w h a t
is a t t h e t o p . T h e r e is i t C S C O ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C – i t is C S C O w h i c h s t a n d s f o r

Chief.
CHAIRPERSON : Chief.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S u p p ly C h a in O ff ic e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

G o v e r n a n c e r e p o r ts in t o t h e C h i e f

S u p p ly C h a i n O ff ic e r a n d t h e r e a r e v a r i o u s m a n a g e r s w h o r e p o r t i n to
m y fu n c t io n o n e f o r p o l ic y a n d s t a n d a r d s , o n e f o r r is k a n d c o m p l i a n c e ,
o n e f o r tr a n s a c t i o n a l a d v i c e a n d s o o n .

C h a ir I s h o u ld a ls o p o i n t o u t

t h a t a t th e o p e r a t in g t h a t a t t h e l e v e l o f t h e o p e r a t in g d i v is i o n s th e r e
a r e a l s o g o v e r n a n c e c a p a c i ty o r p e o p le w h o w i ll p e r f o r m g o v e r n a n c e
f u n c t i o n s a t th e o p e r a ti n g d i v is i o n le v e l .

My – t h e tw o c o n c e r n s I

h i g h l ig h t o n – i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Is t h a t f ir s tl y m a n y o f t h e – t h e s t a ff
a r e r e l a t iv e l y j u n i o r.

I m e a n I w o u l d b e t h e f ir s t to s a y th a t a t t h e

o p e r a ti n g d iv is io n le v e l t h e r e a r e s o m e v e r y g o o d p e o p l e a – w h o
p e r f o r m g o v e r n a n c e f u n c ti o n s b u t m a n y a r e r e l a tiv e ly j u n i o r a n d th e y
a r e m o r e s u s c e p t ib l e t o b e in g …

Page 116 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : To p r e s s u r e s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To p r e s s u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u l ly in g ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ex a c t ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th e s e c o n d is t h a t th e y r e p o r t i n t o

t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r w h o is t h e v e r y e n d o r t h a t is t h e v e r y
f u n c t i o n th a t – w h e r e th e g o v e r n a n c e i n d iv id u a l s a r e s u p p o s e d t o
p e r f o r m a w a tc h d o g o r s o m e s o r t o f o v e r s ig h t b o d y. S o t h o s e a r e t h e
10

t w o w e a k n e s s e s t h a t I h a v e id e n ti fi e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d i f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 9 y o u w i ll

s e e th a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 2 y o u a r e d e a li n g w i th t h e d e le g a ti o n s o f
a u t h o r i ty fr a m e w o r k . W e h a v e a lr e a d y c a n v a s s e d th a t …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : We have.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A t le n g t h .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Mr – you do not need to go back there.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: No.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i f y o u g o to p a g e 11 a s w e l l y o u w il l
20

s e e t h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y c a n v a s s e d w it h t h e C h a ir t h e p r o c u r e m e n t
p r o c e s s . W e e v e n d e a lt w i t h th e p r o c u r e m e n t c ir c l e . A m I c o r r e c t ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w g o t o p a g e 1 3 …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 5 y o u

Page 117 of 208

are

a ls o

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
a d d r e s s i n g t h e is s u e s r e le v a n t t o t h e b i d e v a l u a ti o n p r o c e s s .

Those

h a v e b e e n c o m p r e h e n s iv e l y d e a l t w i t h u n le s s th e r e is s o m e t h in g th a t
y o u w h i c h t o h i g h li g h t . W e c a n p a s s t h r o u g h t h e m .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t h e r e i s n o t h in g f u r t h e r t h a t I

w a n t – i t r e a lly d e a ls w i t h t h e e v a lu a ti o n p r o c e s s a s I d is c u s s e d e a r l ie r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h e r e I w a n t t o t a k e y o u M r Vo l m i n k it is
page 15 – 1-5.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B e c a u s e t h e r e y o u a r e r a is i n g s e r i o u s

is s u e s a n d a d d r e s s i n g a r e a s o f c o n c e r n .

If you can please take us

t h r o u g h t h o s e c o n c e r n s i n r e l a t i o n to t h e e x p e r ie n c e s t h a t y o u
e n c o u n te r e d a t Tr a n s n e t .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s .

C h a ir s o w h a t t h is s e c ti o n o f

m y s t a te m e n t d e a ls w i t h a r e th e c o n c e r n s w h ic h w e h a d a n d w h ic h w e
s o u g h t to a d d r e s s in o u r p r o c u r e m e n t m a n u a l b e i n g t h e P r o c u r e m e n t
P r o c e d u r e s M a n u a l o r t h e P P M . T h e f ir s t c o n c e r n is m e n ti o n e d a t th e
b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 5 a n d t h a t is i n p a r a g r a p h 4 5 . 1 …
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
o f th e p r o c u r e m e n t r u l e s .

A n d t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e a p p lic a b i li ty

I make the point or the PPM then makes it

c le a r t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t r u le s a p p l y to a l l a c q u is i t io n s r e g a r d l e s s o f
v a l u e . N o w th a t a n d a g a i n m a y s e e m s e l f - e v id e n t b u t t h i s w a s w r i t te n
a t t h e ti m e w h e n t h e B o a r d h a d b e g u n t o a s s u m e k e y d e c is io n m a k i n g

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p o w e r s fo r p r o c u r e m e n t a n d w e t h o u g h t it w a s n e c e s s a r y to m a k e i t
c le a r t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t r u l e s a p p li e s f r o m t h e l o w e s t v a l u e t o t h e
h i g h e s t v a lu e t r a n s a c t io n w i th i n t h e o r g a n i s a ti o n a n d t h a t i s o n e o f t h e
– th e is s u e s t h a t is d e a l t w i t h . C h a ir th e s e c o n d c o n c e r n d e a ls w i t h t h e
s o c a l le d O n e P e r s o n A c q u is i t io n C o u n c i l . I h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t e a r l ie r
in m y e v i d e n c e b u t t h a t i s r e f e r r e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h s 4 5 . 2 a n d f o l l o w in g
a n d I m a d e th e o b s e r v a ti o n t h a t t h i s is n o t b e s t p r a c ti c e a t a ll . T h a t i t
n e e d s to b e a m u l t id is c i p li n a r y b o d y a n d w h a t s t e p s w e r e ta k e n to
e n s u r e t h a t b y t h e t i m e i t g e ts t o t h i s O n e P e r s o n A c q u i s i ti o n C o u n c il
10

t h a t i t h a s g o n e th r o u g h v a r i o u s in d iv i d u a l s a n d – a n d b o d ie s w h o h a v e
– w o u l d c o u l d r e v i e w i t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I could move onto the next one

Mr Mokoena.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e n e x t o n e y e s – t h e c o n fi n e m e n t .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th e

next

one

d e a ls

with

c o n fi n e m e n ts a n d h e r e C h a ir I m a k e th e p o in t t h a t t h e – t h e d e fa u l t r u le
is s u p p o s e d t o b e o p e n t e n d e r p r o c e s s e s . I m a k e th e p o i n t h e r e t h a t
c o n fi n e m e n ts a r e a d e v ia t io n a n d t h e p o i n t I w a n t t o e m p h a s is e is a
20

s e c t io n in t h e P P M t h a t w a r n s a g a i n s t t h e a b u s e o f c o n f in e m e n t a s i t
w o u ld h a v e th e e ffe c t o f e n tr e n c h i n g m o n o p o l ie s .

I f I g i v e m u l ti p l e

a w a r d s th r o u g h a c o n fi n e m e n t p r o c e s s t o o n e p a r t ic u l a r e n t it y I a m
e n tr e n c h i n g m o n o p o li e s a n d th e P P M in f a c t s p e c i fic a l ly s a i d t h a t y o u
n e e d t o b e v i g i la n t a b o u t c o n fi n e m e n ts b e c a u s e i f i t i s a b u s e d it
c r e a te s a m o n o p o lis t ic s it u a ti o n .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll I g u e s s t h i s is t h e ti m e w h e n y o u m u s t te ll m e

w h a t ju s ti fi c a t io n is p u t f o r w a r d fo r c o n fi n e m e n t s b e c a u s e I c a n n o t
u n d e r s t a n d y o u r c o m p la in t o r c o n c e r n a b o u t i t s a b u s e i f I d o n o t k n o w
t h e ju s t i fic a ti o n th a t is b e i n g p u t f o r w a r d .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s .

S o C h a ir I th i n k th a t t h e

ju s t i fic a ti o n f o r c o n fi n e m e n t - fir s tly l e t m e s a y t h a t c o n f i n e m e n t is n o t
u n k n o w n e v e n u n iv e r s a l ly. S o if I lo o k a t t h e – th e U N ’s m o d e l l a w o n
c o n fi n e m e n t t h e y a ll o w f o r w h a t is c a l l e d r e s tr i c te d b id d i n g u n d e r
c e r t a i n n a r r o w ly d e fi n e d c i r c u ms t a n c e s . Tr e a s u r y o f c o u r s e a s w e ll b u t
10

in t h e Tr a n s n e t e n v ir o n m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON :

S o – s o – b u t m a y b e l e t u s – l e t u s s t a r t w it h t h e

d e f in i ti o n o f c o n f in e m e n t . Yo u – i t i s n o t th e s a m e a s t h e o n e s o u r c e
e x c e p ti o n o r is i t t h e s a m e ? I s i t s i m p l y – is i t s i m p l y t h a t i t is a te n d e r
b u t n o t a n o p e n t e n d e r ? I t i s a r e s tr ic t e d t e n d e r i n th e s e n s e t h a t o n l y
a f e w b i d d e r s a r e a ll o w e d ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a i r i t is – i t is t h e l a t t e r. S o i t is –
it is a – i t is a d e v i a t i o n f r o m t h e o p e n b i d d i n g p r o c e s s . I t is a ll o w e d t o
p e r m it o n ly a f e w o r p o s s i b l y o n l y o n e b i d d e r t o p a r ti c i p a t e . O n e o f th e
g r o u n d s m a y w e l l b e th a t it i s th e s o l e s u p p li e r s i t u a t io n .
20

Another –

a n o t h e r s c e n a r io c o u ld b e t h a t w e a r e – a r e d e a l in g w i t h a n e x tr e m e l y
u r g e n t m a t te r th a t n e e d s t o b e d e a lt w i th q u ic k ly a n d i n fa c t C h a ir t h e
g r o u n d s fo r c o n fi n e m e n t a r e d e a l t w i t h o n p a g e 1 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f y o u g o to – C h a ir if y o u g o to

p a r a g r a p h 4 5 . 4 b u t w h e r e y o u s e e th e fo o t n o t e 11 I th i n k t h a t is w h e r e

Page 120 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
y o u s ta r t d e f i n i n g c o n fi n e m e n ts . A m I c o r r e c t ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

S o r r y.

J u s t t h e r e fe r e n c e a g a i n

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : If you go to page 17, 1 -7 …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u w ill s e e th a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 5 . 4 –
if y o u g o to t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e – a r e y o u th e r e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

A f te r t h e w o r d Tr a n s n e t – t h e n s t a r ti n g

fr o m w h e r e i t s a y s c o n f in e m e n ts w e r e t h u s ( i n d i s ti n c t) .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t i s w h e r e y o u w a n t to ta k e t h e

C h a ir ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Yo u c a n p r o c e e d t h e n to v e n til a t e
t h o s e is s u e s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

S o C h a ir th e – t h e g r o u n d s f o r

c o n fi n e m e n t th a t p r e v a il e d in Tr a n s n e t f o r – fo r a n u m b e r o f y e a r s
c o v e r s th e s e a r e a s .
20

S o - fi r s tl y i f t h e r e is g e n u i n e u r g e n c y a s I

m e n ti o n e d a n d b u s i n e s s – it i s n o t a s a r e s u l t o f b a d p l a n n in g a n d
s o m e t h i n g n e e d s t o b e a c q u i r e d u r g e n tl y t h a t w a s r e c o g n is e d a s o n e o f
t h e g r o u n d s fo r d e v ia t io n fr o m th e o p e n b i d d i n g p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : The …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s p o k e e a r l ie r o n a b o u t a n e m e r g e n c y a n d t h a t i s

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
w h e r e w e ta lk e d a b o u t s e l f - c r e a t e d e m e r g e n c y a n d p o o r p la n n i n g . S o
w h y d o w e h a v e a d i ffe r e n t t e r m n o w c o n fi n e m e n t ?

Why do we not

s t ic k t o e m e r g e n c y ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s .

No, no I understand what you

a r e s a y i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m n o t b la m i n g y o u . I a m tr y in g to u n d e r s t a n d t h e
d is t in c ti o n s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n d o y o u c a ll t h i s c o n fi n e m e n t ? W h e n d o y o u c a ll
10

it a n e m e r g e n c y ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

An

e m e r g e n c y,

yes

–

and

an

e m e r g e n c y is I t h in k a te r m th a t g e ts u s e d to r e fe r t o t h e m o s t e x tr e m e
f o r m s o f – o f u r g e n c y.

Ty p i c a ll y w h e r e t h e r e is a t h r e a t t o li f e o r t o

p r o p e r ty o r s e r io u s b u s i n e s s d i s r u p t io n o r w h a t e v e r i t i s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , o k a y. S o – s o t h e n y o u h a v e a n o t h e r s c e n a r i o

w h e r e – w h ic h m a y n o t fi t i n w i t h – w i th in t h e a m b it o f e m e r g e n c y b u t
n e v e r t h e l e s s is u r g e n t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It is u r g e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Fo r – a n d i t m u s t n o t o f c o u r s e r e s u l t
fr o m b a d p l a n n in g a n d a l l o f th o s e th i n g s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t t h a t w a s t h e n r e c o g n is e d a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld t h e n f a l l u n d e r c o n fi n e m e n t ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Correct.

w h e r e t h e r e i s li m i t e d s u p p li e r s o u r c e .

T h e – th e o t h e r g r o u n d i s

I c a n n o t – l e t u s s a y i t is a

p a r t ic u l a r c o m m o d it y t h a t o n l y o n e o r a f e w e n t i ti e s a r e a b l e t o p r o v i d e .
T h a t w a s r e c o g n is e d a s o n e g r o u n d fo r c o n fi n e m e n t – a s e c o n d g r o u n d .
A t h ir d g r o u n d r e la t e d t o s ta n d a r d is a ti o n .

If – i f t h e c o m p a n y h a s

s t a n d a r d i s e d th r o u g h a p a r t ic u l a r m o d e l o r a p a r tic u la r w a y o f – o f
d o i n g th i n g s .

T h e n i f I n e e d e d s e r v i c e s t h a t n e e d e d to i n t e r fa c e w i t h

t h is m o d e l I w o u l d c o n fi n e i t t o t h o s e w h o s e r v ic e s a r e c o m p a ti b l e .
10

O t h e r w is e y o u c o u l d h a v e is s u e s w h e r e w h a t w e a c q u ir e is n o t – i t d o e s
n o t in t e r f a c e e a s ily w i t h w h a t is a l r e a d y th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e – a n d I m a y b e g o i n g b a c k to t h e i s s u e t h a t
I r a is e d a b o u t t h e o n e s o u r c e – o n e s u p p l i e r …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C l a u s e – i f y o u ta lk a b o u t s t a n d a r d i s a t io n w h e r e y o u
n e e d a s u p p li e r w h o c a n p r o v id e y o u w i t h s o m e t h i n g th a t m e e ts y o u r
p a r t ic u l a r s t a n d a r d o r a p a r t ic u l a r s t a n d a r d is a ti o n t h a t y o u h a v e in y o u r
company then of course i f there is no urgency again I would see no
r e a s o n w h y y o u c a n n o t p u t u p to th e m a r k a n d – a n d s a y t h is i s w h a t I

20

w a n t a n d i f i t is th a t p a r tic u l a r s u p p l i e r w h o is t h e o n ly o n e w h o
r e s p o n d s o r t h o s e – th o s e tw o o r t h r e e th a t is f i n e b u t w h a t i f y o u a r e
c lo s i n g – y o u a r e e x c l u d i n g s o m e b o d y b y n o t p u t ti n g o u t – p u t ti n g t h e
t e n d e r o u t t o t h e m a r k e t e x c lu d i n g s o m e b o d y th a t y o u m i g h t n o t k n o w
…
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o m i g h t b e a b l e t o g i v e y o u e x a c tl y w h a t y o u w a n t
…
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: And …
CHAIRPERSON : At a cheaper price maybe.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s a n d C h a i r i t i s e x a c tl y f o r t h a t

reason …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h a t w e s a id a c o n fi n e m e n t c a n n o t

ju s t g o s tr a i g h t to t h e G C E f o r a p p r o v a l. I t n e e d s t o g o t h r o u g h t h e s e
10

v a r io u s le v e ls o f r e v i e w …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

S o th a t t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t y o u a r e

raise …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : If it is n o t a s k e d b y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O n e in d i v id u a l o r o n e b o d y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It c o u l d b e a s k e d b y t h e n e x t o n e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i ff e r e n t p e o p l e , j a .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

S o th a t c o n fi n e m e n t is n o t s i m p ly

there for the asking …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d i t j u s t g e ts – b u t th e r e m a y w e ll
b e in s ta n c e s .

Page 124 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

L e t u s t a k e – I w i ll j u s t u s e a n

e x a m p l e p e r h a p s o ff t h e t o p o f m y h e a d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It m a y n o t b e t h e b e s t e x a m p l e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t l e t u s t a k e a b r a k e b lo c k …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O n a tr a i n …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h e r e w e h a v e s ta n d a r d is e d th r o u g h
a p a r ti c u l a r t y p e o f tr a in a n d a p a r t ic u l a r t y p e o f b r a k e b lo c k .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

S o i f I n e e d m o r e b r a k e b lo c k s I

c a n n o t i s s u e n e c e s s a r ily a n o p e n t e n d e r fo r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Any other kind of brake block.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It w i ll b e i n c o m p a ti b l e w i t h t h a t …
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : M o d e l o f tr a i n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

So that may well be an example of

w h e r e s t a n d a r d is a ti o n …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W o u l d j u s ti fy a d e c i s i o n to s a y o n ly

t h o s e s u p p li e r s t h a t m e e t th a t r e q u ir e m e n t w e a r e g o i n g t o g o t o .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s . N o - I t h i n k a s l o n g a s o n e y o u – y o u m a k e i t

o p e n t o w h o e v e r c a n g iv e y o u w h a t y o u w a n t. Th e n t h a t i s fi n e . I th i n k
t h e p r o b le m a r is e s w h e n y o u c o n f in e i t t o m a y b e o n e o r t w o b u t if y o u
w e r e t o m a k e i t o p e n – i f t h e p o s i ti o n is o n ly t h o s e t w o c a n g iv e y o u
what you want then those are the only two who would respond.
T h e r e f o r e y o u w o u ld b e f i n e b u t ju s t in c a s e …
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : There are others.
CHAIRPERSON :

T h e r e is s o m e b o d y w h o c a n a c t u a ll y g iv e y o u t h e

s a m e o r e v e n b e t t e r i f y o u m a k e i t o p e n y o u m i g h t a c t u a ll y g e t b e tt e r
value.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d I th in k t h a t i s w h y Tr e a s u r y h a s
n o w s a i d y o u c a n d e c i d e y o u r c o n fi n e m e n t s o n ly o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e g r o u n d th a t th e r e i s o n l y o n e …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A s o le s u p p li e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : If t h e r e i s a n y o t h e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Reasons.
CHAIRPERSON : Open it.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Yo u m u s t c o m e to …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : E it h e r to Tr e a s u r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To a p p r o v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t y o u c a n c o n fi n e o r
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Is s u e a n o p e n t e n d e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d I th i n k t h a t th e o t h e r g r o u n d w a s
w h e r e g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s a r e h i g h ly s p e c ia li s e d a n d la r g e l y id e n tic a l
t o th o s e t h a t w e r e p r e v io u s ly p r o c u r e d fr o m t h e s u p p l ie r. S o l e t u s s a y
I j u s t w a n t a c o n ti n u a t io n o f a p a r t ic u l a r s e r v i c e a n d i t i s a h i g h ly
c o m p le x n a t u r e .

I w a n t t o a d d o n a c e r ta i n c o m p o n e n t th e n I c a n

c o n fi n e t o t h e e n ti t y t o w h o m I h a v e g i v e n t h e in i ti a l c o n tr a c t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s b u t fo r y o u to g o o n c o n f i n e m e n t y o u
h a v e to e n s u r e t h a t th is s p e c i fi c s t a n d a r d s o r c r i te r i a e x is t b e f o r e y o u
c a n e v e n d e c i d e w h e t h e r o r n o t t o g o o n c o n f in e m e n t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Th a t is a b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e
20

g r o u n d s f o r c o n f i n e m e n t h a d t o e x i s t a n d t h e y h a d t o b e p r o p e r ly
s c r u t i n is e d b e f o r e t h e y w o u ld b e a p p r o v e d p r e c i s e ly b e c a u s e o f a ll t h e
w a r n in g s in t h e P P M a b o u t i t s p o te n ti a l f o r a b u s e a n d t h e c r e a t i o n o f
monopolies etcetera. These grounds had to be met.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w s o m e o f th e c o n c e r n s t h a t y o u
a r e r a is in g Mr Vo l m in k y o u h a v e a l r e a d y a l s o c a n v a s s e d t h e m .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : If you go to page 19.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t th e c o n tr a c t

v a r ia t io n . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t . W e h a v e d e a l t w it h th a t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o d e a l w i t h i t . T h a t i s
t h e r e a s o n w h y w e h a d t o t a k e m u c h m o r e ti m e …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W it h t h e s li d e s a n d i f y o u g o t o p a g e 2 0
p r e f e r e n ti a l p r o c u r e m e n t a n d s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s . I t h i n k I h a v e d e a l t w i th t h a t a s
w e ll .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e h a v e d e a l t w i th t h a t y e s .

Page 21

p a r a g r a p h 4 5 . 8 y o u h a v e a ls o d e a l t w i t h t h a t.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

45.8 yes again we talk about FRC

a n d a l l t h e t h in g s I d e a l t w i t h i n my p r e s e n t a t i o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d p a g e 2 2 – 4 5 . 9 w e h a v e d e a l t

w i t h a ll t h o s e is s u e s .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A l l o f th o s e h a v e b e e n d e a l t w i th .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . U p u n t il y o u g o t o p a g e 2 4 .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u h a v e a d d r e s s e d th e C h a ir w i th t h e –
o n t h e is s u e s o f t h e r is k f a c t o r s …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w e h a v e a ls o d e a l t w it h t h e c h a n g e s
– you know – of the PPM …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Is t h a t o n p a g e s 2 5
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 25.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d f o ll o w i n g ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e h a v e a d d r e s s e d t h o s e is s u e s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
10

We have addressed those issues

C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . T h r o u g h th e s l i d e s C h a ir w e h a v e
done that and page 28 we have done the same …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s w e h a v e c o v e r e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d y o u h a v e a ls o d e a lt w i t h y o u r

o b s e r v a t i o n s a n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s - p a g e 3 1 .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . W h e r e I w a n t t o t a k e y o u i t is t h e
P a r t 2 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t - f r o m p a g e 3 4 C h a ir - w h e r e w e a r e n o w
d e a li n g w i t h s p e c i f ic c o n t r a c t s .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w t h e fi r s t tr a n s a c t io n t h a t y o u a r e

d e a li n g w i th h e r e is in r e l a ti o n t o t h e N e o t e l N e tw o r k S e r v ic e C o n tr a c t .
A m I c o r r e c t?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w h a t ty p e o f s e r v i c e s w e r e r e q u ir e d

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
fr o m N e o t e l ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W e ll I t h i n k n e tw o r k s e r v ic e s w o u ld

c o v e r a r a n g e o f I T r e la t e d s e r v i c e s la r g e ly e n s u r i n g t h a t th e n e t w o r k
c a p a b il it i e s w i th i n Tr a n s n e t c a n m e e t i ts o p e r a t io n a l r e q u ir e m e n t s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w h e n t h e s e s e r v i c e s w e r e r e q u ir e d
w e r e y o u c o n s u l te d o r w a s g o v e r n a n c e i n v o lv e d i n th is ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

In

t h is

p a r ti c u l a r

tender

C h a ir

g o v e r n a n c e w a s r e q u ir e d t o m a k e i n p u t o n t h is .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h e i n p u t
10

o r th e i n v o l v e m e n t o f g o v e r n a n c e ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : So Chair the RFP was issued in 2013
f o r v a r i o u s n e tw o r k s e r v i c e s .

A n u m b e r o f b i d d e r s r e s p o n d e d to t h is

t e n d e r b u t a t a n e a r l y s t a g e in th e te n d e r e v a l u a ti o n p r o c e s s th e r e
w e r e t w o c o n c e r n s t h a t w e r e r a is e d a n d w h e r e g o v e r n a n c e in p u t w a s
r e q u ir e d .

I w il l t a k e y o u t h r o u g h w h a t th o s e c o n c e r n s w e r e a n d w h a t

t h e g o v e r n a n c e v i e w is o n i t …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t t h is is t h e t e n d e r t h a t e v e n t u a ll y
was awarded to Neotel but then ove rturned by the Group Chief
20

E x e c u t iv e a n d a w a r d e d t o T- S y s t e m s a n d I w i ll d e a l w i th t h a t a s p e c t a t
le n g t h i n a w h i l e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . L e t u s n o w a d d r e s s – y o u k n o w –
the address …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e f ir s t …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I s s u e s th a t y o u – y o u s a y t h a t t h e r e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
w e r e is s u e s o f c o n c e r n . T h e fir s t o n e b e i n g t h e c o n f lic t o f i n t e r e s t .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s .

T h e fir s t i s s u e I d e a l w i t h in

p a r a g r a p h s 8 2 a n d fo ll o w i n g a n d t h i s r e l a te d t o a c o n fl ic t o f i n te r e s t
b e t w e e n T- S y s te m s S o u t h A f r i c a ( P t y ) L t d w h ic h w a s t h e b i d d e r th a t
r e s p o n d e d t o th is t e n d e r o f 2 0 1 3 a n d a n o t h e r c o m p a n y c a ll e d D a t a c o n
I n t e r n a ti o n a l.

T h e y s h a r e d a c o m m o n p a r e n t c o m p a n y – T- Sy s te m s .

T h e G e r m a n b a s e d c o m p a n y a n d I s u m m a r is e w h a t t h e i s s u e s w e r e a s
f o ll o w s C h a ir. I p o i n t o u t t h a t T- S y s t e ms I n te r n a ti o n a l w a s t h e m a jo r i ty
s h a r e h o l d e r - o f c o u r s e o f t h i s S o u t h A fr ic a n b i d d i n g c o m p a n y c a ll e d T 10

S y s t e ms S o u th A f r ic a a n d i t i s a l l – i t w a s a ls o t h e s h a r e h o l d e r o f
Datacon.
is s u e d

N o w b e fo r e t h is te n d e r w a s i s s u e d d u r i n g 2 0 1 2 Tr a n s n e t
a n o th e r

te n d e r

for

a

service

p r o v id e r

to

conduct

a

c o m p r e h e n s iv e d u e d il ig e n c e e x e r c is e o n it s n e t w o r k s e r v i c e s a n d t h e
o u t c o m e o f t h a t d u e d il ig e n c e – I t h i n k i n fo r m e d t h is te n d e r – a n d
D a t a c o n w o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r f o r t h e d u e d il i g e n c e e x e r c is e . Th e
R F P w h i c h D a t a c o n r e s p o n d e d t o a n d w h e r e t h e y w o n t h e t e n d e r th a t
c o n ta in e d th e c la u s e th a t s a i d a n d I q u o t e it a t t h e e n d o f p a g e 3 4 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . P a r a g r a p h 8 2 . 1 C h a ir.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : 82.1 – the clause that Datacon – the
20

c la u s e i n t h e R F P t h a t D a t a c o n r e s p o n d e d t o t h e r e w a s a c la u s e w h i c h
a d v is e d b i d d e r s a s f o l lo w s . I t s a i d :
“ Sh o u l d t h e y b e s u c c e s s f u l w i t h r e g a r d s to t h is R F P
f o r d u e d i li g e n c e th e y w il l t h e n b e e x c lu d e d f r o m
t e n d e r i n g , p a r t n e r i n g o r a d v is in g b id d e r s fo r t h e
m a in n e t w o r k s e r v ic e s t e n d e r.”

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
T h e t e n d e r t h a t w a s t h e n t o f o l lo w a n d a s I m e n ti o n e d D a t a c o n w a s
a w a r d e d th is d u e d i li g e n c e te n d e r. C h a ir t h e – t h e r e d i ffi c u l ty h e r e is
t h a t t h e l e tt e r o f i n t e n t t h a t w a s t h e n is s u e d t o D a t a c o n - w h e n it w o n
t h e t e n d e r – i t w e n t m u c h f u r t h e r th a n t h e t e r m s o f th e R F P. T h e R F P
s a i d if y o u a s t h e b i d d e r – i f y o u w i n t h is t e n d e r y o u c a n n o t p a r t ic ip a t e
in t h e n e tw o r k s e r v i c e s t e n d e r t h a t is c o m i n g b e c a u s e y o u a r e d o i n g
t h e d u e d il ig e n c e b u t t h e l e t te r o f i n t e n t w e n t f u r th e r a n d s t a t e d th a t
t h e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r a n d /o r it s a ffi li a t e s a g r e e s t o b e i n g e x c l u d e d . N o w
r e m e m b e r T- S y s t e m s w a s n o t a r e s p o n d e n t o n t h e d u e d ili g e n c e t e n d e r
10

D a t a c o n w a s b u t Tr a n s n e t a n d D a ta c o n – w h e n Tr a n s n e t is s u e d a n L O I
o r L e t t e r o f Aw a r d t o D a t a c o n a c la u s e w a s a d d e d t h a t y o u a n d y o u r
a ffi li a te s a r e n o t a l lo w e d t o p a r t ic i p a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e u l t i m a te t e n d e r ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : In t h e u l ti m a t e te n d e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : That was to c ome.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i c h w o u l d – w h ic h s h o u l d m e a n T - Sy s t e m s b e c a u s e
of the parental …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Because of the common …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : P a r e n t a l c o n n e c ti o n ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Because of the common parent.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , s h o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o te n d e r …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To te n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e u l ti m a t e t e n d e r.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t , c o r r e c t C h a ir …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d i n f a c t t h e h i g h v a lu e t e n d e r is a
t e a m o f – o f e x te r n a l – a n e x t e r n a l a u d i t fir m …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h o d o e s r e v i e w s o n s o m e o f th e

h i g h v a l u e t e n d e r s . T h e y a l s o fe l t t h a t T - S y s t e ms o u g h t to h a v e b e e n
e l i m in a t e d b e c a u s e o f t h e ir a ffi li a ti o n w i th – w i th D a t a c o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a i r y o u d o n o t h a v e t o g o th e r e . Fo r
r e fe r e n c e p u r p o s e s t h a t r e p o r t o f t h e h i g h te n d e r v a l u e te a m is
10

c o n ta in e d in E X H I B I T B B C – B B 2 .1 C o n – fr o m p a g e 8 4 0 b u t
M r Vo l m in k h a s a lr e a d y s u m m a r is e d i ts …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

F in d in g s a n d s o i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y fo r

u s to g o t h r o u g h th e m . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d f r o m p a r a g r a p h 8 2 .4 …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: So …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h e r e y o u i d e n ti f y t h e t w o r i s k s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s .

S o I th in k t h a t th e r e – t h i s

is s u e w a s e x t e n s iv e l y d e b a t e d a n d f o r – fr o m a g o v e r n a n c e p e r s p e c tiv e
I t h i n k th a t t h e r e w e r e t w o r is k s t h a t h a d to b e a c c o m m o d a te d o r
20

addressed.

T h e f ir s t w a s t h a t i f T- S y s t e m s w a s t o b e d is q u a li f ie d

b a s e d o n t h e fa c t t h a t i t w a s a n a ff il i a t e o f D a t a c o n th e r e w a s a
c o n c e r n t h a t t h e y m i g h t w e l l h a v e h a d s o m e r e a s o n t o c h a ll e n g e i t s
d is q u a l if ic a ti o n o n t h e f o l l o w in g g r o u n d s a n d I lis t t h o s e g r o u n d s i n
8 3 . 4 .1 a n d f o l l o w i n g . I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a r g u e d t h a t t h e t e r m s o f t h e
L O I w e r e i n v a l id t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t th e y p u r p o r te d to in c o r p o r a te

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
o b li g a ti o n s t h a t w e r e n o t c o n t e m p la t e d i n t h e R F P t o w h ic h D a t a c o n
h a d r e s p o n d e d a n d a s I h a d s ta t e d t h e r e w a s c o n c e r n t h a t w h il s t t h e
due

d il i g e n c e

RFP

p r o h i b it e d

only

the

successful

b id d e r

from

p a r t ic ip a ti n g t h e L O I n o w w e n t f u r th e r a n d a ls o d i s q u a l if i e d a ffi li a te s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : So I think that was the one – the one
c o n c e r n b u t t h e s e c o n d c o n c e r n t h a t w e h a d C h a ir is t h a t t h is
d is q u a l if ic a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON :
10

B u t I a m – I a m j u s t n o t s u r e – I a m j u s t t h in k i n g

a b o u t t h a t t h e c o n c e r n a b o u t t h a t d is q u a l i fi c a t io n . W o u l d n o t – is th e
p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t t h e r a ti o n a le b e h i n d t h e p r o h i b it i o n th a t i f y o u h a v e
d o n e d u e d i li g e n c e y o u s h o u ld n o t a v a il y o u r s e l f f o r th e u l t i m a te
tender?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON :

I s th a t t h r o u g h d u e d i li g e n c e y o u w o u l d g a i n c e r t a i n

advantage …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : In f o r m a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w o u l d b e p r i v y t o c e r ta in in f o r m a t io n ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w i f y o u a r e g o in g t o b e p r iv y to c e r ta i n i n fo r m a ti o n
y o u r – a n d y o u r s i b li n g i f y o u w a n t – y o u r s ib li n g is g o i n g t o b e a ll o w e d
t o – t o p u t i n a b id t h e r e is a r i s k t h a t y o u s h a r e t h a t c o n fi d e n t ia l
in f o r m a ti o n w i th y o u r s ib li n g b e c a u s e y o u h a v e o n e p a r e n t .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d I t h i n k th a t w a s - th a t w a s

e x a c tl y o n e o f th e c o n c e r n s w h ic h – w h ic h w e w e r e tr o u b l e d b y …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d i f …
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: But …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h a t – i f t h a t – i f t h a t is t h e r a ti o n a le f o r s a y i n g if
y o u h a v e d o n e t h e d u e d i li g e n c e y o u c a n n o t t e n d e r fo r t h e u l ti m a t e
t e n d e r th e n i t m u s t fo ll o w t h a t i f a n y b o d y c o n n e c t e d w i t h y o u s h o u l d n o t
b e a b l e t o – t o te n d e r f o r t h e u l t i m a te t e n d e r.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W i t h o r w i t h o u t a n e x p a n d e d le t t e r o f i n t e n t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir I – I a m w i th y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a n a d d i ti o n a l

concern though …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d th a t is t h a t th e R F P t o w h i c h

T- S y s te m s h a d r e s p o n d e d – t h e m a i n – t h e m a i n n e t w o r k s e r v ic e s – i t
d i d n o t c o n t a i n a s i m i la r d is q u a li f y i n g c o n d i ti o n . N o w R – T- S y s t e ms is
r e s p o n d i n g y e s it s s is t e r c o m p a n y d i d r e s p o n d t o t h e d u e d il ig e n c e b u t
20

n o w i t a s a c o m p a n y T- S y s t e m s i s r e s p o n d in g a n d i t r e a d s th is R F P a n d
t h e r e is n o p r o v is io n i n t h a t R F P t h a t d is q u a li f ie s it o n t h e b a s i s o f it s
a ffi li a ti o n o r i t d o e s n o t s a y a n y e n t it y t h a t r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t b i d o r a n y
e n t i ty w h ic h is a ff il i a t e d t o a c o m p a n y w h i c h r e s p o n d e d w i ll b e s i m il a r ly
d is q u a l if i e d a n d C h a i r I th in k t h a t t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e – w e w e r e
concerned …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

About

th e

fairness

of

the

d is q u a l if ic a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d w e h a d ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s fa c to r s t h a t w e r e w e i g h in g u p o n y o u r t e a m ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It d i d – i t d i d w e i g h u p o n u s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : E v e n tu a l ly I t h i n k t h a t T- S y s t e ms w a s
10

a s k e d t o g o o n a ff id a v i t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To i n d ic a te u n d e r o a t h …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h e th e r t h e y h a d r e c e iv e d a n y k i n d

o f i n f o r m a t io n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t h e y p r o v i d e d a n a ffi d a v i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
20

To t h e e ffe c t t h a t th a t w a s n o t th e

case.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : And on page 37 paragraph 83 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i t l o o k s lik e i t is th e r i g h t t i m e to …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s t h e r i g h t ti m e t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e th e b r e a k

Page 136 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e w il l d e a l w i th th a t a f t e r t h e lu n c h

a d j o u r n m e n t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

It is 1 o’ clock.

L e t u s t a k e th e lu n c h b r e a k

a n d w e w i ll r e t u r n a t 2 o ’ c lo c k . W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d Mr M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
10

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir.

M r Vo l m i n k j u s t

before the lunch adjournment we are just about to deal with the second
p r e d ic a m e n t t h a t y o u a r e fa c i n g , y o u i d e n ti f y th a t fr o m p a g e 3 7 ,
p a r a g r a p h 8 3 o f y o u r w it n e s s s t a te m e n t , c o u ld y o u p l e a s e t a k e t h e
C h a ir t h r o u g h t h a t ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

Thank you.

C h a ir w h a t t h is i s s u e

r e l a t e s to i s a f u r th e r c o n c e r n r e g a r d i n g t h e e v a l u a t i o n o f T - S y s t e m s ’
bid.

T h e f ir s t i s s u e w a s th e c o n f lic t o f i n te r e s t w h ic h I d e a l t w i th

b e f o r e l u n c h a n d t h e s e c o n d is s u e p e r t a i n s t o t h e r o u n d i n g o ff o f
s c o r e s t h a t T- S y s t e m s w e r e g iv e n f o r f u n c ti o n a li ty. N o w I s h o u l d p o i n t
o u t t h a t t h e r e w a s a t h r e s h o l d f o r t e c h n ic a l c o m p li a n c e w h i c h w a s s e t
20

a t 7 0 % , s o m e ti m e s r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e f u n c ti o n a li ty th r e s h o l d a n d T S y s t e ms h a d mi s s e d t h a t t h r e s h o l d b y a fr a c t io n .
scored 69.93% and not 70.

T - S y s t e ms h a d

W e t h e n h a d r e g a r d to t h e – w h a t t h e

r e g u la t io n s s a i d a b o u t t h i s a n d w e s a w t h a t th e 2 0 11 r e g u l a t i o n s h a d a
p r o v i s i o n s d e a li n g w i t h h o w s c o r e s a r e t o b e r o u n d e d o ff .
c o n ta in e d

in

r e g u l a ti o n

11 . 4

of

th e

Page 137 of 208

P P P FA

r e g u la t io n s

I t is
of

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
2 0 11 .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

M a y I r e f e r y o u t o E x h i b i t B P 2 . 1 C it

w i ll b e a d i ff e r e n t fi le .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is f il e B i s i t?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

BP 2.1 C and then if you may turn to

page 874.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s I a m th e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I s t h a t th e r e g u l a t i o n t h a t y o u a r e

r e fe r r i n g t h e C h a ir t o ?
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d th e n m a y y o u t u r n th e n t o p a g e

8 8 5 w i th p a r t ic u l a r r e f e r e n c e t o p a r a g r a p h 11 . 4 , y o u m a y r e a d i t in t o
t h e r e c o r d a n d c o n fi r m w h e th e r t h a t d o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r
evidence?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a ir th e r e g u l a ti o n r e a d s a s

f o ll o w s . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

I ’ m s o r r y, w h a t r e g u l a t i o n a n d w h a t p a r a g r a p h .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

W e ’r e a t p a g e 8 8 5 w i th p a r ti c u l a r

r e fe r e n c e to 11 . 4 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h r e g u l a ti o n 11 s u b r e g u l a t i o n 4 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a i r t h e r e g u la t io n r e a d s a s fo ll o w s ,
it s a y s :
“ Po in t s s c o r e d m u s t b e r o u n d e d o ff t o th e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
places”.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

S o t h is i s w h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g to t h a t

r a i s e d s e r io u s c o n c e r n w i th t h e s c o r i n g t h e T - S y s t e m ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, b e c a u s e e v e n i f
y o u r o u n d o ff 6 9 . 9 3 % t o th e n e a r e s t tw o d e c i m a l p l a c e s , r e g a r d l e s s o f
w h a t th a t t h ir d d e c i m a l w o u l d h a v e b e e n , if y o u r o u n d i t o ff T- S y s t e ms
s t il l d o e s n ’ t m a k e th e fu n c t io n a l i ty th r e s h o l d .
CHAIRPERSON :

W h a t d o e s r o u n d in g i t o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t tw o d e c i m a l

places – what does that mean?
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W e l l i f y o u l o o k a t t h is e x a m p l e h e r e
C h a ir, i f y o u l o o k a t s o m e o n e w h o s c o r e s 6 9 . 9 3 % t o r o u n d i t o ff to t h e
n e a r e s t tw o d e c i m a l p la c e s , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is , o n e w o u l d h a v e t o
lo o k a t w h a t t h e t h i r d d e c i m a l is , s o l e t ’s s a y t h e th ir d d e c i m a l w a s 6 ,
s o i t is 6 9 .9 3 6 b e c a u s e th a t 6 is h ig h e r t h a n a 5 it w o u l d h a v e c h a n g e d
t h e 3 t o a 4 b u t t h a t s til l w o u ld n o t h a v e h a d a k n o c k - o n e ff e c t t o
c h a n g e t h e o v e r a ll s c o r e fr o m 6 9 . 9 3 to 7 0 .
CHAIRPERSON :

I ’ m s o r r y w h a t d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d th e a p p l ic a t i o n o f

t h a t s u b r e g u l a ti o n w o u l d b e i f y o u a p p l ie d i t t o 6 9 .9 3 % ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h a t I u n d e r s t a n d t h is t o b e C h a ir is
20

t h a t t o r o u n d i t o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s , o n e w o u l d th e n
s e e , w e l l w h a t w o u l d th a t s e c o n d d e c i m a l p l a c e – h o w d o y o u r o u n d i t
o ff t o th a t s e c o n d d e c i m a l p l a c e b e i n g t h e . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

I’ m v e r y b a d w i t h a n y th in g m a th e m a t ic a l , I o n ly d id

a r i t h m e ti c a n d a li t tl e b i t o f m a t h s a t s c h o o l .

So remind me what we

a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t a d e c i m a l o r t w o d e c i m a ls –

Page 139 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
decimal places.
MR

PETER

STEPH EN

VOLMINK :

Chair

let

me

tr y

my

b e s t. . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

Th a t i s i f y o u k n o w, I’ m a s s u m i n g t h a t y o u k n o w.

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s s o i f o n e h a s to r o u n d o ff t o t h e
n e a r e s t – t h e i n t e n t h e r e i s t o s e e w h e t h e r t h is s c o r e o f 6 9 . 9 3 c a n b e
r o u n d e d o ff t o

70%

because if they make 70%

then they are

t h r o u g h . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

J a b u t n o w y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t – o f c o u r s e I s p o k e

a b o u t t h is s p e c i f ic e x a m p l e , l e t ’s s t a r t w i t h t h e g e n e r a l .

W h a t is tw o

d e c i m a l p l a c e s , w h a t is o n e d e c i m a l p la c e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O k a y s o t h e fir s t d e c i m a l p l a c e w o u ld
b e t h e d e c i m a l p la c e a ft e r t h e p o in t , s o u n d e r – i f y o u l o o k a t 6 9 . 9 t h e
9 w o u l d b e th e fir s t d e c i m a l . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h e f ir s t 9 w o u ld b e t h e f ir s t d e c i m a l a f t e r t h e

point?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A f t e r t h e p o in t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s a n d t h e n th e d ig i t t h a t c o m e s a f t e r 9 w h a t e v e r i t

is w o u l d b e t h e s e c o n d d e c i m a l . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t w o u l d b e th e s e c o n d d e c i m a l .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s s o – b u t t h e n i f i t s a y s r o u n d i t o ff t o t h e

nearest second – what second – nearest two decimal places it – what
d o e s i t m e a n . I t d o e s n ’ t s e e m t o s a y to m e , m a y b e i t ’s b e c a u s e o f m y
n o t u n d e r s t a n d i n g is s u e s o f d e c i m a l – i t d o e s n ’ t s a y a n y th in g l ik e ,
r o u n d i t o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t 1 0 / 1 0 fo r e x a m p l e . S o i f i t s a i d t h a t a n d i t

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
w a s 6 9 .9 2 y o u w o u ld b r in g i t b a c k t o 6 9 . 9 0 I w o u l d i m a g i n e , m o r e o r
le s s b u t i f i t is 6 9 . 9 7 t h e n y o u ’d b r i n g i t c l o s e r – t o w h a t i s c l o s e r w h ic h
w o u ld b e 7 0 , th a t ’s my k i n d o f t h i n k in g , t h is is w h a t I ’ m l o o k i n g
f o r. . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

L e t s d e a l w i th i t o n p r a c t ic a l te r ms ,

le t ’s t a k e t h e s c o r e o f 6 9 . 9 3 a n d t h e n l e t ’s s a y th a t y o u w a n t e d to a p p ly
w h a t th e r e g u la t io n s b e , w h a t w o u ld t h e s c o r e o f T - s y s te m s ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

J u s t b e fo r e I a n s w e r th e q u e s ti o n ,

t h e o n e w a y to r o u n d o ff i s ju s t t o r o u n d o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t w h o l e
10

n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y e s .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

S o i f I h a v e t o r o u n d o ff 6 9 – l e t ’s

s a y 6 9 . 9 to t h e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

J a i f i t – s a y r o u n d it o ff i t ’s c l e a r y o u m u s t g o to

70.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

E x a c tl y b e c a u s e t h a t 9 is a b o v e 5

a n d t h a t h a s a k n o c k - o n e ff e c t w h i c h t h e n c h a n g e s 6 9 . 9 to 7 0 , w h e n it
s a y s I m u s t r o u n d i t o ff t o t h e s e c o n d d e c i m a l p l a c e I w o u ld – f o r th a t
d e c i m a l p la c e o f 6 9 . 9 3 f o r t h a t t o c h a n g e I’ d h a v e to lo o k a t w h a t t h e
20

t h ir d d e c i m a l is b e c a u s e i f t h e t h ir d d e c i m a l i s u n d e r 5 i t s t a y s a s a 3 .
I f th e t h ir d d e c i m a l is a b o v e 5 th e n t h e 3 b e c o m e s a 4 b u t e v e n i f t h a t 3
b e c o m e s a 4 t h e 4 is s ti ll b e l o w 5 s o i t d o e s n ’ t h a v e a k n o c k - o n e ffe c t
of changing that 69.9 into a 70.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t e v e n fu n d a m e n t a l ly d o e s n ’ t e v e n

g o t o t h e fu n c t io n a l t h r e s h o ld .

Page 141 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d i t d o e s n ’t p a s s t h e fu n c t i o n a l i ty
t h r e s h o ld .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

B u t t h e n g o b a c k to t h e q u e s t io n s o f , I

u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u ’ r e s a y in g b u t t h e C h a ir w a n ts t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t
y o u ’r e s a y in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e y o u c a n h e l p m e i f y o u u n d e r s ta n d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

H e h a s g a v e y o u th e a n s w e r C h a ir t h a t

6 9 . 9 3 e v e n i f y o u w e r e t o a p p ly 11 . 4 r a ti o n a lly i t w o n ’ t g o to t h e
t h r e s h o ld o f 7 0 a t b e s t i t w il l b e 6 9 . 9 6 o r 5 .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

N o I th i n k I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t a n d t h a t ’s p a r t – th a t ’s

p a r t o f w h a t h e h a s s a i d b u t I’ m n o t s u r e if – I m e a n if y o u t a lk a b o u t
r o u n d i n g o ff y o u c o u l d h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e y s a y r o u n d s o m e – a
fi g u r e o ff t o th e n e a r e s t 1 0 , w e ll I d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r th e y w o u l d s a y
1 0 b u t i n te r m s o f w h a t I h a v e in m i n d i s t h a t i f s o m e b o d y h a s g o t 1 2
p o i n t s a n d y o u a r e r e q u ir e d to r o u n d o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t – I d o n ’t k n o w
w h e t h e r y o u ’ d s a y 1 0 o r s o m e t h in g e l s e b u t y o u ’ d h a v e a c h o ic e o f
r o u n d i n g o ff a n d p u t s o m e b o d y a t 2 0 o r a t 1 0 a n d i f t h e y a r e b e l o w 1 5
t h e n e a r e s t 1 0 w o u l d b e to g iv e t h e m 1 0 b u t i f t h e y a r e a b o v e 1 5 th e
n e a r e s t 1 0 w o u l d b e 2 0 , i f y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t I m e a n .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Chair can we do without having to go to

c h a r g e y o u a n y t h i n g f o r a r i th m e t ic 1 0 1 , c a n w e g o t o t h i s n u m b e r f o r
in s t a n c e . I f y o u c a n w r it e t h i s n u m b e r fo r m e , m a y b e it m i g h t m a k e a
better example for you.

I f y o u a n u m b e r l ik e 4 . – if y o u c a n w r i t e i t

d o w n 4 . 7 3 2 . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o m e b o d y w h o k n o w s m a th s a n d s o o n m u s t b e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
la u g h in g a t u s , a t l e a s t a m e , l a u g h i n g a t m e , y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d i f y o u w a n t to m o v e i t t w o d e c i m a l

p l a c e s t h a t n u m b e r it w il l e i t h e r r o u n d u p t o 4 . 7 3 o r 4 . 7 4 , w o u l d I b e
c o r r e c t M r Vo l m in k ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

O k a y s o m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h is ,

u s e y o u r e x a m p le o f 4 . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s a n d y o u ’l l a p p l y i t to t h e 6 9 .9 3 v e r y

q u ic k ly.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s 4 .7 3 2 t o r o u n d o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t
10

t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s I m u s t s e e w h a t is t h a t t h ir d d e c i m a l.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

E x a c tly.

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o w th a t t h ir d d e c i m a l is a 2 w h ic h i s
b e l o w 5 , i t h a s n o k n o c k - o n e ff e c t s o i t d o e s n ’ t c h a n g e t h a t 3 i n to a 4
o r a n y th i n g li k e t h a t . S o i f I m u s t r o u n d o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t tw o d e c i m a l
p l a c e s 7 . 3 2 , t o r o u n d o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s w o u l d
r e m a in 4 .7 3 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

4 .7 3 y e s a t b e s t . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

I t c a n ’ t b e c o m e a 5 a n d t h a t is

e x a c tl y w h a t t h e is s u e w a s in t h i s p a r ti c u l a r i n s t a n c e 6 9 . 9 3 .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

N o , n o th a t ’s fi n e , I t h i n k fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ,

y o u ’r e s a y in g w h a te v e r a p p li c a t io n o f th is r e g u la t i o n , o n e u s e s it c o u l d
n e v e r g iv e t h e m 7 0 , c o m m a 7 0 o r r a t h e r 7 0 .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ex a c t ly C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I w i l l d o m y o w n h o m e w o r k a b o u t t h is

b u t I’ m s u r e w i th G o o g l e a n d s o o n , s o m e b o d y h a s a l r e a d y G o o g le d a n d

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
maybe having – what a decimal is.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

M r Pr e t o r i u s is tr y in g b u t h e ’s a ls o

h o p e l e s s i n m a t h e m a t ic s , h e ’s g i v i n g m e n u m e r o u s n u m b e r s s o I’ m n o t
s u r e w h e th e r t o r e ly u p o n h is e x a m p l e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

L a w y e r s c a n b e v e r y b a d w i th fi g u r e s .

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d I’ m n o t e x c e p ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

N o th a t ’s f i n e p l e a s e c o n ti n u e I’ ll d o m y h o m e w o r k .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

T h e e s s e n c e is w h a t y o u ’v e c a p t u r e d

M r Vo l m in k t h a t. . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
10

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK : The essence is that when y ou round
o ff to t h e n e a r e s t tw o d e c i m a l p l a c e s y o u d o n o t e n d – y o u c a n ’ t
c h a n g e t h a t 6 9 .9 3 i n t o a – i t d o e s n ’ t b e c o m e 7 0 r e g a r d le s s o f w h a t th a t
t h ir d d e c i m a l p la c e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

D o y o u k n o w w h a t w o u l d – w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n w o u ld

h a v e b e e n i f it w a s 6 9 . 7 o r 8 - .9 8 o r . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : 69.?
CHAIRPERSON :

6 9 . 9 7 o r 6 9 .9 8 d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i t w o u l d m a k e a

d i ff e r e n c e , in y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f h o w t o a p p l y t h is s u b r e g u l a ti o n ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W e ll i f i t w a s 6 9 .9 7 o n e w o u l d a g a in
20

w o u ld h a v e h a d t o l o o k a t w h a t t h e t h ir d – t h a t t h ir d d e c i m a l w o u l d
h a v e i t b e e n a n d l e t’s s a y – s o t h a t 7 o n ly c h a n g e s i f t h e t h ir d d e c i m a l
is a b o v e 5 , s o l e t ’s s a y th a t w a s 6 9 .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b u t t h a t’s w h a t I ’ v e g iv e n y o u , m a y b e I d i d n ’ t

m a k e it c l e a r. I f o n t h e n u m b e r th a t w e ’v e g o t o n y o u r s t a t e m e n t w e
c h a n g e 3 t o 7 o r 8 o r 9 w o u l d it m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e , w o u l d t h e

Page 144 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
a p p lic a ti o n o f t h is o th e r r e g u l a t i o n m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s w h a t I ’ m s a y i n g C h a ir is , th a t i t
w o u ld o n ly m a k e a d i ffe r e n c e i f y o u k n o w w h a t th a t t h ir d d e c i m a l i s
b e c a u s e t h e t h ir d d e c i m a l w o u l d h a v e a k n o c k - o n e ff e c t , s o t o u s e y o u r
e x a m p l e 6 9 . 9 – s a y 6 9 .9 7 3 .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

W h ic h t h ir d d e c i m a l n o w ?

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o r r y C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON :

W h i c h t h ir d d e c i m a l n o w, w h i c h o n e is th e t h ir d

d e c i m a l – w h ic h o n e i s t h e t h ir d d e c i m a l t h a t y o u ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
10

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

W e ll i n th e e x a m p le y o u g a v e o f

6 9 . 9 7 , w e o n ly s e e t h e s e c o n d d e c i m a l w h ic h is 7 , y o u s e e t h e fi r s t
d e c i m a l b e in g .9 a n d t h e n th e s e c o n d d e c i m a l , o f c o u r s e is 7 .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh yes, ja.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

B u t t o k n o w w h e th e r t h a t s e c o n d

d e c i m a l . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

7 i n t h is c a s e . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Yo u ’v e g o t t o l o o k a t w h a t is th e n e x t
d e c i m a l , t h e t h ir d d e c i m a l .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

W h e r e i s t h e t h ir d d e c i m a l ?

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

W h a t e v e r t h a t fi g u r e is , i n y o u r

e x a m p l e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u h a v e g o t h e r e – b e f o r e th e p o i n t y o u ’v e g o t
t w o d i g i t s a f t e r t h e p o i n t y o u ’v e g o t t w o d i g i ts .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
CHAIRPERSON :

6 9 .9 3 th a t ’s w h a t y o u h a v e i n t h e s ta t e m e n t .

Page 145 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

And you say this c an’t get you to 70.

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y s o to s e e w h e t h e r – t o s e e w h a t c o u l d g e t y o u

t o 7 0 I tr y t o c h a n g e a n d s a y d e l e te 3 a n d p u t 7 i n t h e s a m e n u m b e r o r
d e l e t e 7 a n d p u t 8 o r p u t 9 , w o u l d i t m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e a n d I t h in k
y o u ’r e s a y in g i t w o u ld n o t m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I t m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e w i t h o u t k n o w i n g
w h a t th e th ir d is b e c a u s e i t a ll h a s a k n o c k - o n e ff e c t .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

O h o k a y a lr i g h t I ’ m s u r e a ft e r I ’v e d o n e h o m e w o r k I

w i ll u n d e r s t a n d it b e t t e r, y e s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

S o th a t , I t h i n k , is t h e p o i n t t h a t i t

w o u ld n ’ t h a v e c h a n g e d 6 9 .9 3 i n to 7 0 .

C h a ir w e th e n l o o k e d a t th e –

w h a t ’s c a l le d t h e i m p le m e n t a t i o n g u i d e w h i c h is a g u i d e w h ic h tr e a s u r y
is s u e s to t h e P P P FA r e g u la t io n a n d I m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t i n
p a r a g r a p h 8 3 .2 o f t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d I t h i n k t h a t is s e t o u t in P V 11
w h ic h i s o n p a g e 8 9 1 .
ADV PHILLIP

MOKOENA

SC :

891

of

BP

2.1

C

but

the

p o i n t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y p a g e 8 8 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I t’s 8 9 1 .

CHAIRPERSON : 891?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d C h a ir in p a r t ic u l a r w e lo o k e d a t

Page 146 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p a r a g r a p h 1 3 . 1 . 3 a n d i t r e p e a ts th e p r i n c ip le w h ic h 1 3 . 1 . 3 is o n p a g e
907.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d i t s a y s a g a i n , “ p o in t s s c o r e d

m u s t b e r o u n d e d o ff t o th e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s ” b u t t h i s ti m e
C h a ir, y o u w i ll s e e th a t i t i s d e a l t w i t h u n d e r t h e p o i n ts a l lo c a t e d fo r
p r i c e a n d p r e f e r e n c e o n ly. T h e r e a r e c e r t a i n p o i n t s a l lo c a t e d fo r p r ic e
either

80

or

90

and

for

preference

being

20

or

10

and

th e

i m p l e m e n ta t io n g u i d e s e e m s to s u g g e s t t o u s t h a t t o – th a t t h is
10

p r i n c i p l e o f r o u n d i n g o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s o n ly a p p li e s
t o t h a t p o i n t a l lo c a t io n fo r p r ic e a n d p r e fe r e n c e n o t f o r t h a t e a r li e r
f u n c t i o n a l i ty s t a g e w h i c h w e w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t .

So then the

q u e s t io n is , o k a y s o h o w d o w e r o u n d o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t – a t t h e
f u n c t i o n a l i ty g a t e , if I c a n r o u n d o ff to t h e n e a r e s t w h o le n u m b e r t h e n
t h e y p a s s b e c a u s e i t is 6 9 . 9 w h ic h th e n e a s il y b e c o m e s 7 0 b u t i f I h a v e
t o r o u n d o ff to t h e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s a s I e a r li e r c o n v e r s a ti o n
in d i c a t e d t h a t w o u ld n ’t n e c e s s a r ily – t h a t w o u l d n ’ t p a s s t h e n .

S o to

r e s o l v e t h i s u n c e r t a i n ty w e a p p r o a c h e d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y to s a y,
tr e a s u r y w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h r o u n d i n g o ff o f t h e s c o r e f o r t e c h n ic a l n o t
20

f o r p r ic e a n d p r e f e r e n c e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

B u t b e f o r e y o u a p p r o a c h e d tr e a s u r y

w h a t w a s g o v e r n a n c e v i e w a b o u t t h e id e a o f r o u n d in g o ff T - Sy s t e m s
score?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : G o v e r n a n c e w a s o p p o s e d t o r o u n d in g
o ff T- Sy s te m s s c o r e t o th e n e a r e s t w h o le n u m b e r.

Page 147 of 208

I t i n d ic a te d t o u s

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h a t y o u h a d t o r o u n d o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s a n d o u r
u n d e r s t a n d in g is if t h a t w a s fo ll o w e d t h e n t h e y s t il l w o u ld n o t h a v e
passed, so governance had a concern about that.
CHAIRPERSON :

N o w w h e n y o u f ir s t r e fe r r e d t o t h e r e g u l a ti o n t h a t

r e fe r s t o t h is r o u n d i n g o ff t o d e c i m a l p l a c e s y o u s a id s o m e t h i n g lik e
t h a t w a s a r e g u l a ti o n t h a t, I t h i n k i t w a s f o r 2 0 11 o r h a d a p p li e d
p r e v i o u s ly, I w a n t e d

t o c h e c k w h e th e r t h a t r e g u la t io n

w a s s t il l

a p p lic a b l e a t t h e t i m e t h a t y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i th t h is m a t t e r.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:
10

C h a ir t h e r e g u l a ti o n w a s a p p li c a b l e

t o t h i s t h in g .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y, n o w t h e r e g u l a ti o n o r s u b - r e g u la t io n th a t y o u

d r e w o u r a t t e n t io n to e a r l ie r t h a t r e f e r s to th e tw o p l a c e – r o u n d in g o ff
t o t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s , d id i t a p p ly t o th e p r ic e o r d i d i t a ls o a p p l y t o
f u n c t i o n a l i ty b e c a u s e y o u h a v e ju s t m a d e a c o m m e n t i n r e la t io n to w h a t
is a t p a g e 9 0 7 a b o u t i t a p p l y i n g , I t h i n k , t o p r ic e o n ly n o t t o
f u n c t i o n a l i ty.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o I w a n t to fi n d o u t w h e th e r t h a t w a s t h e s a m e w i t h

r e g a r d t o t h e r e g u l a ti o n a s w e l l .
20

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :
d o e s n ’t

say

it

a p p li e s

only

Ye s s o i f I lo o k a t th e r e g u l a ti o n i t
to

price

and

preference

or

f u n c t i o n a l i ty. .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s it ’s g e n e r a l .

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e r e ’s a g e n e r a l s t a t e m e n t t h a t

s a y s , p o in ts s c o r e d m u s t b e r o u n d e d o ff t o th e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l

Page 148 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
places.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

PETER

O k a y.

STEPHEN

VOLMINK :

But

tr e a s u r y

issues

an

i m p l e m e n ta t io n g u id e w h ic h e x p l a i n s h o w th o s e r e g u la t io n s a r e to b e
a p p li e d in p r a c ti c e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s w h ic h i s w h a t 9 0 7 i s a b o u t .

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ex a c t ly C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

MR PETER STEPH EN VOL MINK : And it is in that context that we saw
10

t h a t , t h a t p r i n c ip le o f r o u n d i n g o ff to th e n e a r e s t tw o d e c i m a l p l a c e s
a p p li e s to t h e c o n t e x t o f p r i c e a n d p r e fe r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s s o i n o t h e r w o r d s , in o t h e r w o r d s i f t h e N a t io n a l

Tr e a s u r y in s t r u c t i o n a t p a g e 9 0 7 w a s n ’ t th e r e , th e n t h e r e g u la t io n c o u l d
b e a p p li e d e v e n to r o u n d in g o ff t h e s c o r e o n f u n c ti o n a li ty.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

B e c a u s e i t d i d n o t h a v e t h e r e s t r ic t io n th a t t h e

in s t r u c t i o n h a d .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y.
CHAIRPERSON :
20

A n d y o u r d i ffic u lt y w a s , a l th o u g h t h e r e g u la t io n

s e e m s t o b e w i d e i n t h e s e n s e t h a t i t d o e s n ’ t r e s tr i c t y o u to c e r t a i n
it e m s w h e r e y o u c a n r o u n d o ff a fi g u r e t h e r e is a s p e c i f ic in s t r u c t i o n
fr o m tr e a s u r y w h ic h d o e s r e s tr i c t y o u , t h a t w a s y o u r c h a ll e n g e a n d
t h a t ’s w h y y o u r e f e r r e d it b a c k t o N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Yo u ’ v e s u m m e d i t u p p e r fe c tly.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s o k a y.

Page 149 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w w h a t w a s th e a d v is e t h a t y o u

o b t a i n e d fr o m tr e a s u r y ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e a d v ic e is s e t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h

8 3 . 4 w h ic h is o n p a g e 3 7 o f my s t a t e m e n t C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ta k e u s t h r o u g h i t .

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d i t s a y s th a t – w e l l tr e a s u r y f ir s tl y
a d v is e d t h a t t h e m a n n e r in w h i c h p o i n ts a r e to b e r o u n d e d o ff s h o u l d
id e a l ly b e s e t o u t i n t h e R F P i ts e l f , w e k n o w in t h is c a s e it w a s n ’ t .
T h e y t h e n w e n t o n t o s a y th a t i f, a t t h e ti m e o f e v a l u a t io n t h e
10

evaluation

committee

was

d e a li n g

with

d e c i m a ls

that

were

not

a n t ic i p a te d a t t h e b i d p l a n n i n g – I ’ m q u o ti n g fr o m w h a t tr e a s u r y h a s
a c t u a ll y s a i d a n d t h u s n o t d e a lt w it h i n t h e R F P t h e n i t s a i d y o u c a n
d e c i d e , y o u e i th e r r o u n d o ff to t h e n e a r e s t w h o l e n u m b e r o r y o u c a n
round

o ff

to

the

near est

tw o

decimal

points,

so

in

e s s e n c e .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

J a y o u s e e w h e n y o u s a y r o u n d i n g o ff to a w h o le

n u m b e r, i t s o u n d s s i m p le r.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s a n d I th i n k th a t i s w h a t t r e a s u r y
w a s s a y i n g t o u s th e y s a i d , i f y o u a r e d e a l in g w it h fu n c t io n a l it y a n d y o u
20

h a v e g o t a s it u a ti o n l ik e t h i s w h e r e y o u ’v e g o t s o m e o n e w h o m is s e s t h e
m a r g in o r t h e t h r e s h o l d r a th e r b y a m a r g in , t h e n y o u d e c i d e a r e y o u
g o i n g t o r o u n d – a r e y o u g o i n g t o s tic k t o th is p r i n c ip l e o f r o u n d i n g o ff
t o th e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s o r a r e y o u g o in g t o r o u n d o ff to t h e
n e a r e s t w h o l e n u m b e r a n d th a t b e i n g t h e c a s e Tr a n s n e t t h e n t o o k a
d e c is i o n t o r o u n d o ff to t h e n e a r e s t w h o l e n u m b e r in w h ic h c a s e 6 9 . 9 3

Page 150 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
r o u n d e d o ff to t h e n e a r e s t w h o le n u m b e r b e c a m e 7 0 .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d T- S y s t e m – t h e n e t e ff e c t o f a l l
o f t h i s is t h a t T- S y s t e m s p a s s e d th a t f u n c ti o n a li ty t h r e s h o ld .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s o k a y. W i th t h i s a d v i c e fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y

w a s y o u r u n i t s a t is fi e d b e c a u s e b e fo r e i t w a s o p p o s e d t o g iv i n g TS y s t e ms 7 0 o n th e b a s is o f w h a t t h e tr e a s u r y in s t r u c t i o n s s a y s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s s a t is fi e d m a y b e p u t ti n g i t a b i t
s tr o n g ly b u t c e r t a in ly w e e n g a g e d t h e a u t h o r s o f t h i s d o c u m e n t a n d w e
10

a s k e d t h e a u t h o r s h o w o n e s h o u l d d e a l w i t h t h e s it u a ti o n o f r o u n d i n g
o ff a t th e fu n c t io n a l i ty l e v e l .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t h e a u t h o r s th e n a d v is e d u s th a t
it w a s o u r c h o i c e a n d w e t h e n i m p l e m e n te d th a t a d v ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o t h a t ’s fi n e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

B u t M r Vo l m i n k i f y o u g o to p a g e 9 1 4

C h a ir o f E x h i b i t P B 2 . 1 C . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s 9 1 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
20

914.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d th e n if y o u g o t o p a g e – i f y o u g o

t o – i f y o u lo o k a t t h a t d o c u m e n t , t h a t i s t h e e m a i l w h i c h c o n t a i n w h a t
tr e a s u r y u l ti m a t e l y a d v is e d Tr a n s n e t t o d o , a m I c o r r e c t?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

B u t I w h a t I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r

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c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h th e C h a ir w h e t h e r y o u ’r e s a tis f i e d o r n o t , is t h e f a c t
t h a t w h e n y o u lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 3 tr e a s u r y s a y s t h a t i t is i m p o r t a n t to
e m p h a s is e th a t n o t h i n g , a n d i t s a y s n o t h i n g , o n r e g u l a ti o n s c o m p e l s t h e
b i d e v a l u a ti o n c o m m i t t e e to f o ll o w p a r a g r a p h 2 a b o v e a s it w il l b e
b a s e d o n t h e d is c r e t i o n o f th e e v a l u a ti o n c o m m i t t e e a n d o n t h e f a c ts
b e f o r e t h e m b u t I t h o u g h t th a t , y o u k n o w, y o u s p e c i fic a lly r e fe r r e d to a
r e g u la t io n t h a t s ti p u l a t e s in e x p r e s s t e r m s w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n a n d y o u
a ls o r e f e r r e d to a s u b s e q u e n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m tr e a s u r y a s t o h o w
t h is s h o u l d b e a p p li e d . N o w i f tr e a s u r y s a y s th a t t h is d o e s n o t c o m p e l
10

t h e e v a l u a ti o n c o m m i t t e e t o f o ll o w th a t p a r a g r a p h 2 I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

Ye s s o i t ’s n o t th a t tr e a s u r y w a s

s a y in g t o u s t h a t w e w e r e c o m p e ll e d t o f o l lo w p a r a g r a p h 2 , w h a t
tr e a s u r y w a s s a y i n g i s th a t y o u – i f y o u l o o k a t t h e t w o b u l le t p o i n ts i t
g a v e u s a n o p t io n .

I t s a y s y o u m a y r o u n d o ff t o a f u l l n u m b e r o r t h e

n e a r e s t w h o l e n u m b e r o r y o u c a n b o r r o w t h a t p r o v is i o n s o f t h a t
r e g u la t io n i n 11 .4 a n d r o u n d o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p la c e s a n d
w h a t i t s a y s i s t h a t th e y a r e n o t c o m p e l li n g u s , t h e y ’ r e n o t c o m p e l li n g
t h e c o m m i t t e e t o fo ll o w t h a t p a r a g r a p h a s i t w i ll b e b a s e d o n t h e
d is c r e ti o n o f t h e c o m m i t t e e .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

and where does one find in the

r e g u la t io n s t h a t y o u m a y r o u n d to t h e f u l l n u m b e r ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o th a t is n o t in t h e r e g u la t io n . I t is
n o t in t h e r e g u l a t i o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s n o t i n t h e r e g u l a ti o n ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : No.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l t h e a n s w e r t o t h e q u e s ti o n th a t M r M o k o e n e h a s

a s k e d m a y m e a n t h a t r o u n d i n g o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t w h o l e n u m b e r w h ic h
tr e a s u r y s a i d w a s a n o p t i o n m a y m e a n th a t i t w a s n e i th e r i n l in e w i t h
t h e r e g u l a ti o n to w h ic h r e fe r e n c e h a s b e e n m a d e n o r in l in e w i t h t h e
tr e a s u r y i n s tr u c t io n t o w h ic h w e h a v e r e f e r r e d . B e c a u s e t h e r e g u l a t io n
t o w h i c h r e f e r e n c e h a s b e e n m a d e d id n o t ta lk a b o u t r o u n d i n g o ff t o a
w h o le n u m b e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A w h o l e n u m b e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON :

I t – t h e o n ly r e f e r e n c e it m a d e o f r o u n d i n g o ff w a s

r o u n d i n g o ff t o t w o d e c i m a l p la c e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f y o u r o u n d o ff t o a w h o le n u m b e r if t h a t d o e s n o t
c o i n c i d e w i t h r o u n d i n g o ff t o t w o d e c i m a l p la c e s y o u a r e n o t i n li n e w i t h
t h e r e g u l a ti o n .

I f a n d th e n it w o u l d n o t b e in l in e w it h t h e n a t io n a l

in s t r u c t i o n b e c a u s e t h e n a t io n a l i n s tr u c ti o n ta lk e d a b o u t t w o d e c i m a l
p o i n t s – p la c e s .

So if you round to – to the nearest whole number

p r o v i d e d r o u n d in g o ff t o t h e n e a r e s t w h o l e n u m b e r is n o t t h e s a m e a s
r o u n d i n g o ff t o t w o n e a r e s t t w o d e c i m a l p l a c e s th e n y o u c o u ld b e i n
20

b r e a c h o f b o th t h e n a ti o n a l i n s tr u c ti o n a n d th e r e g u la t io n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e r e g u la t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t n o t?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

Ja.

S o C h a ir I th i n k t h e – th e

d i ff ic u l ty t h a t w a s c r e a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . I a m ju s t t e s t in g th i s b e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y y o u a s k

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
f o r a d v ic e b e c a u s e y o u w a n t e d t o d o th e r i g h t t h i n g .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m j u s t w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r t h e a d v ic e y o u w e r e
g iv e n w a s c o r r e c t?
MR PET ER STEPHEN VOL MINK : Ja. Which is why I said – you asked
if t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e t h e r y o u w e r e s a ti s f i e d ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : My u n i t w a s h a p p y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d I s a i d t h a t m a y b e p u t t in g i t a b i t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A b i t s tr o n g ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t w e u lt i m a t e ly a c c e p te d .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:
fr o m – fr o m t r e a s u r y.

T h a t t h is i s t h e a d v i c e th a t c a m e

T h e fu n d a m e n t a l p r o b l e m is th a t th e r e g u la t io n

r e a d w i t h t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n g u i d e d e a ls w i t h t h e q u e s t io n o f r o u n d i n g
o ff o n ly i n t h e c o n t e x t o f p r ic e a n d p r e f e r e n c e .
20

T h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n

g u i d e e x p l a i n s t h a t t h e p r i n c i p l e a p p l ie s o n ly i n p r i c e a n d p r e f e r e n c e .
I t d o e s n o t s a y a n y th i n g a b o u t h o w r o u n d i n g o ff is s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n
a t t h e f u n c ti o n a li ty [i n d is t in c t] . S o i t d o e s n o t s a y y o u c a n r o u n d o ff t o
t h e n e a r e s t w h o l e n u m b e r o r y o u c a n n o t it a p p e a r s t o b e s il e n t o n i t .
A n d th e a d v i c e o f tr e a s u r y a t th e ti m e is i n fa c t I t h i n k t h e y a g r e e d th a t
it d o e s n o t – i t o n l y d e a l w i th p r ic e a n d p r e fe r e n c e a n d t h e n t h e y s a i d i f

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
it – w h e n i t c o m e s t o f u n c ti o n a li ty y o u d e c i d e – y o u h a v e a d is c r e t i o n t o
e i t h e r r o u n d o ff to t h e n e a r e s t w h o le n u m b e r o r f o l l o w t h e r e g u l a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

W e l l i t m i g h t n o t – it m i g h t n o t u lt i m a t e ly b e

m a t e r i a l b u t o n e j u s t w o n d e r s w h e t h e r i f t h e r e g u l a ti o n s a r e w id e r y o u
c a n r e s t r ic t t h e m b y w a y o f a n in s tr u c ti o n b e c a u s e r e g u la t io n s a r e
m a d e i n t e r m s o f a n a c t o f p a r li a m e n t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n y o u is s u e a p o l ic y o r s o m e t h in g o f a l e s s e r l e g a l
s t a tu s a n d u s e i t t o r e s tr i c t t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s t o w h i c h i t a p p li e s .
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t m i g h t n o t in t h e e n d b e m a t e r ia l – m a t e r ia l f o r
our purposes.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e r e a r e c e r ta i n ly f a r m o r e m a te r i a l
a s p e c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h ja y o u – y o u w o u l d k n o w b e tt e r ja .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

B u t t h is r e fl e c ts t h e p r o b le m s t h a t y o u

h a v e – y o u i d e n ti f ie d e a r li e r o n a b o u t c e r t a i n ty o f r e g u l a ti o n s o r y o u
k n o w t h e r u le s a p p l ic a b le t o p r o c u r e m e n t w h e r e th e y a r e n o t c le a r.
20

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

W h e n t h e r u l e s a r e n o t c le a r C h a ir

then
CHAIRPERSON : It does create problems.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I t c r e a t e s p r o b l e m s . I t is d i ffi c u l t f o r
t h e o r g a n o f s ta t e t o r e g u l a t e i ts o w n c o n d u c t a n d r e g u l a te i ts o w n
b e h a v io u r a n d t o k n o w h o w i t is to a p p ly t h e r u l e s i n a p a r tic u l a r

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c o n te x t a n d t h e n o n e h a s t o e n g a g e w i t h t h e a u t h o r o f t h e r e g u l a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

In t h e h o p e t h a t w h a t o n e t h e n

r e c e i v e s is t h e c o r r e c t a d v i c e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w f r o m p a r a g r a p h 8 4 o n p a g e 3 8
y o u a r e n o w d e a l in g w it h t h e a w a r d o f t h e t e n d e r t o N e o t e l .

Mr

Vo l m i n k c o u l d y o u p l e a s e ta k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. U m C h a ir w e th e n
10

c o m e t o th e s t a g e i n th e t e n d e r w h e r e w e s e e th a t th r e e b i d d e r s p a s s e d
t h a t t h r e s h o l d f o r f u n c ti o n a l it y.
T- S y s te m s .

Th e y a r e N e o t e l, D i m e n s i o n D a t a a n d

T h e y w e r e t h e o n ly b id d e r s w h o p a s s e d t h e t h r e s h o l d .

T h e r e w a s s o m e u n c e r t a in ty a r o u n d th e p r i c in g t h a t s o m e o f t h e b i d d e r s
h a d g iv e n a n d t h e r e w a s a s e r i e s o f c la r i fi c a t io n s e s s i o n s a n d
c la r i fi c a t io n a r o u n d t h e a s s u m p ti o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e b u t a ft e r a ll t h e
c la r i fi c a t io n s a r o u n d p r i c i n g h a d b e e n o b t a i n e d t h e f in a l r a n k i n g o f th e
b i d d e r s b a s e d o n p r ic e a n d p r e f e r e n c e w a s fir s t ly N e o t e l w h o s c o r e d
t h e m o s t p o i n t s f o r p r i c e 9 0 a t a p r i c e o f 1 .3 b il li o n a n d t h e n D i D a t a
c a m e s e c o n d a n d T- S y s t e ms w a s r a n k e d t h ir d .
20

That was the ranking

a ft e r t h e p r ic in g h a d a l l b e e n c l a r if i e d a n d a ll p r o c e s s e s h a d g o n e –
h a d b e e n f o l l o w e d . I t w o u l d a p p e a r t h a t a f t e r p r i c i n g h a d b e e n c la r i fi e d
T- S y s te m s c a m e a n d o ff e r e d t o r e d u c e t h e ir p r ic e b y a f u r t h e r R 2 4 8
m il li o n a n d I r e fe r r e d t o t h a t i n p a g e – a h s o r r y i n p a r a g r a p h 8 5 w h ic h
y o u w il l f i n d a t t h e t o p o f p a g e 3 9 o f m y s t a te m e n t . S o w h a t h a p p e n s
C h a ir i s t h a t p r ic e n e g o ti a ti o n s w e r e c o n d u c te d b u t t h e n y o u g e t t o a

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p o i n t w h e r e y o u i n v i te b e s t a n d fi n a l o ff e r s . A l l th o s e o ff e r s m u s t b e i n
a b o x b y a c lo s i n g d a t e a n d t i m e w i t h c la r i fi c a t io n s a n d e v e r y t h i n g e ls e .
A s a r e s u l t o f f o l lo w i n g th a t p r o c e s s t h is w a s t h e r a n k in g o f th e
bidders.

N e o t e l , D i D a t a a n d T- Sy s te m s .

W i t h T- S y s t e m s o ffe r a f t e r

t h e b e s t a n d f i n a l o ff e r s h a d c l o s e d w i t h T - S y s t e ms o ffe r t o r e d u c e b y a
f u r th e r R 2 4 8 m i ll i o n i t w o u ld h a v e p la c e d t h e m i n s e c o n d p l a c e i n s te a d
of Di Data.

B u t t h e e v a l u a t io n t e a m I t h in k c o r r e c t ly i n m y v i e w f e l t

t h a t th is c o u l d n o t b e c o n s i d e r e d a t t h a t s t a g e o f t h e p r o c e s s a n d th e y
d is r e g a r d e d th e f u r th e r o ffe r o f th e R 2 4 8 m ill i o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y le t u s – l e t u s ju s t s te p b a c k , o n e s t e p b a c k .

A f t e r t h e p a r ti e s h a d p u t in t h e ir b i d s w i t h t h e ir p r i c e s a n d t h e b id s h a d
b e e n o p e n e d th e n n e g o t ia t io n s f o l lo w e d , is th a t w h a t y o u s a y i n g ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o t i m m e d i a t e ly a t t h a t p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : F i r s t p a r ti e s w e n t t h r o u g h th a t – t h e
f u n c t i o n a l i ty
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ev a lu a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :

A n d t h e n i t g o t to t h e p r ic e a n d

p r e f e r e n c e s ta g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

A n d t h a t is w h e n t h e t e a m w h o

lo o k e d a t th e p r i c i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

They felt that the pricing ther e was

s o m e a m b i g u i ty.
CHAIRPERSON : Could be negotiated down.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d s o o n a n d b id d e r s w e r e i n v i te d
t o c l a r if y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y th e ir p r ic in g ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e ir p r i c in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t o a t – a t a c e r t a i n s ta g e t o g iv e t h e ir fi n a l
a n d b e s t o ff e r.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ex a c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e y g a v e t h a t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t h e y g a v e it .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f th a t
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e p r ic i n g .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S t e p in t h e p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON : Issues yes.

20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : After that
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T- S y s te m s a c c o r d i n g t o t h e r e p o r t
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h a t t h e y – t h e y o ff e r e d a f u r th e r

r e d u c t i o n o f R 2 4 8 m i ll io n .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n c i r c u ms t a n c e s w h e r e t h e y h a d n o t b e e n i n v i te d to
d o s o a n d n o o t h e r p a r ty h a d b e e n i n v i t e d t o d o s o .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y u n i la t e r a l ly r e d u c e d t h e ir p r ic e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : M a d e t h e o ff e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

T h e y m a d e th e o ff e r.

They say we

c a n r e d u c e th is p r i c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOL MINK: But they had not been invited.
CHAIRPERSON : ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d n o o t h e r p a r ty
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

H a d b e e n i n v i te d t o e n t e r y e t a

f u r th e r r o u n d
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O f p r ic in g n e g o t ia t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t a s I s a i d C h a ir th a t a m o u n t w a s
20

not…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s d is r e g a r d e d .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Wa s d i s r e g a r d e d .
CHAIRPERSON :

I f it h a d b e e n r e g a r d e d t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n

number 2?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.

Page 159 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

A n d I w i ll te ll y o u i n a s h o r t w h il e

t h a t t h a t o ff e r w a s t h e n l a te r ta k e n i n t o a c c o u n t b y th e G r o u p C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h o m o v e d T- Sy s te m s u p t o n u m b e r
2 a n d N e o t e l w a s e x c lu d e d b a s e d o n v a r io u s r is k f a c t o r s b u t w e w ill
come to that.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e w ill g e t t h e r e .
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : At a later stage.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV

PHILLIP

MOKOENA

SC :

Now

you

make

reference

to

a

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d a n d p r e s e n t e d t o t h e G C E Ms S h a r l a
P il l a y a t t h e ti m e w h o a p p r o a c h e d t h e a w a r d . M a y I r e f e r y o u t o E x h i b i t
B B 2 . 1 C C h a ir o n p a g e 9 6 7 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s I a m th e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s c o u ld y o u p l e a s e i d e n t i fy t h a t

document for us?
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir t h is i s t h e d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s
s ig n e d b y t h e th e n a c t i n g G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e S h a r l a Pi ll a y in w h ic h
she approved the award of the tender to Neotel.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d c o u l d y o u p le a s e r e a d w h e r e i t
s a y s p u r p o s e o r t h e s u b m is s i o n ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h a t is fo u n d o n p a g e 9 6 7 C h a ir i n

Page 160 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
paragraph 1. It says:
“ T h e p u r p o s e o f th e s u b m i s s i o n is to r e q u e s t t h e
G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u tiv e t o a p p r o v e t h e p r o c u r e m e n t
process and award of business to Neotel and then to
s ig n a l e t te r o f i n t e n t f o r th e p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r t o a ls o
s ig n le t t e r s o f r e g r e t f o r t h e fo u r u n s u c c e s s fu l
b i d d e r s a n d s i g n t h e l e tt e r t o e x t e n d t h e c u r r e n t
N e o t e l c o n tr a c t. ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d a s y o u h a v e p o i n t e d o u t t o t h e
10

C h a ir a t th e t i m e M s S h a r l a P il la y w a s t h e a c ti n g G r o u p C h ie f
E x e c u t iv e , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w m a y I r e fe r y o u to p a g e 9 7 3 .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d y o u w i l l s e e th a t th e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t
in d i v i d u a ls o c c u p y in g d i ff e r e n t c a p a c i ti e s t h a t h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d a n d
u l ti m a t e ly a p p r o v e d t h e a w a r d , a m I c o r r e c t ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

20

A n d w h a t b e th e s ig n if ic a n c e o f th e i r

s ig n a tu r e s ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h e s ig n if ic a n c e C h a ir i s t h a t it

w o u ld h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h v a r i o u s p e o p l e t o r e v i e w t h e s u b m is s io n . To
e n s u r e t h a t t h e s u b m is s i o n c o r r e c tly r e fl e c ts t h e o u tc o m e o f th e
e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s a n d th e n t o ta k e i t t o t h e p e r s o n w it h d e le g a te d
a u t h o r i ty t o a p p r o v e t h e a w a r d .

Page 161 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d i f y o u g o t o p a g e 9 7 2 y o u w il l
s e e t h a t t h e r e is a h e a d i n g t h e r e t h a t s a y s “ A p p r o v a ls a n d D e l e g a ti o n s ”
c a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h th a t p a r a g r a p h ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s i t s a y s :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : And comment on it?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :
“That

th e

Group

C h ie f

Ex e c u ti v e

p r o v i d e d t h e f o l l o w i n g a p p r o v a ls .

has

a lr e a d y

A p p r o v a l o f th e

request for proposal and advert to go out on the
o p e n te n d e r s o th a t th e t e n d e r h a d a lr e a d y lo n g ti m e

10

a g o b e e n a p p r o v e d . T h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u tiv e h a s
a ls o a p p r o v e d t o a d v e r ti s e a n d i s s u e t h e R F P t o t h e
o p e n m a r k e t f o r s e r v ic e s f o r t h r e e y e a r s w i th a n
o p t io n t o e x t e n d f o r a n o t h e r tw o y e a r s a n d a p p r o v a l
t o c o n d u c t d u e d il i g e n c e a n d n e g o t i a t i o n s o n t h e
n e t w o r k s e r v ic e s R F P.”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

So – and at this time Ms Sharla

P il l a y w a s – w a s a c ti n g a s a G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e o ffi c e r a n d c l e a r ly
s h e h a d o n t h e e n ti t le m e n t a n d t h e r ig h t t o a p p r o v e t h e t e n d e r a s s h e
20

did?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e s e e a r li e r
a p p r o v a l s m a y h a v e b e e n d o n e b y t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u ti v e t h a t I
h a v e ju s t r e f e r r e d t o n o w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t w h e n M s S h a r l a P il la y e x e r c is e d

Page 162 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h e d e le g a ti o n t o a p p r o v e t h e a w a r d t o N e o te l s h e d i d s o a s t h e G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u tiv e a l b e i t i n a n a c ti n g c a p a c it y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d t h a t d e c i s i o n a ls o e n jo y e d th e
s u p p o r t o f a ll o th e r s e n i o r o ffic i a ls w h o h a d t h e r e le v a n t a u t h o r i ty t o
d e a l w it h t h e t e n d e r i n q u e s ti o n a n d a p p r o v a l ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:
fr o m

the

Group

S t r a te g ic

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

Sourcing,

the

T h e o ffi c i a ls c o m e

technical

people,

the

G o v e r n a n c e p e o p le , s u p p l y c h a i n o ffi c e r, t h e c h i e f i n f o r m a ti o n o ffic e r,
t h e C F O , e v e r y o n e h a d l o o k e d a t it a n d w e r e h a p p y f o r t h e a w a r d to b e
10

m a d e t o N e o te l .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

However

t h is

d e c is i o n

that

has

u n d e r w e n t a l l t h e s e l a w fu l s tr u c t u r e s a n d r e c e iv e d a p p r o v a l fr o m a ll t h e
le v e ls w a s u lt i m a t e ly o v e r t u r n e d ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

C a n y o u te ll t h e C h a ir h o w i t w a s

o v e r tu r n e d ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir I d e a l w i t h t h a t i n – o n p a g e 3 9
o f m y s t a te m e n t in p a r a g r a p h s 8 7 a n d f o ll o w i n g w h e r e I m a k e th e
comment that on the 20 November 2013 a couple of weeks after Sharla
20

P il l a y h a d s i g n e d o ff o n t h e 2 0 N o v e m b e r M r B r ia n M o l e f e t h e n w r o te a
m e m o t o A n o j Si n g h , M a n ts ik a M a t o o a n e a n d G a r y P e t e r i n w h i c h h e
in f o r m e d t h e m a b o u t h is d e c i s i o n t o r e s c in d t h e a w a r d t o N e o t e l a n d h e
e x p l a i n e d t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o a w a r d t h e t e n d e r to T - S y s t e m s i n s t e a d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . M a y I t h e n r e fe r y o u to
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w h il e M r M o l – M r M o k o e n e – s o r r y M r M o k o e n e .

Page 163 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
W h i l e Mr M o k o e n e i s l o o k i n g fo r t h e d o c u m e n t t o w h ic h h e w il l r e f e r
y o u t e l l m e d i d t h e g r o u p C E O M r Br ia n M o le f e h a v e p o w e r to r e s c i n d
a n a w a r d t h a t – a t e n d e r th a t h a d b e e n a l r e a d y g r a n t e d ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : I deal with that…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n te r m s o f t h e p o l ic ie s a n d t h e …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r e s c r ip t s p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

I d e a l w i t h th a t a l i tt l e b i t l a t e r o n

C h a ir.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . L a t e r o n y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

W e ll t e l l m e w h e t h e r y e s o r n o y o u c a n

elaborate later on.
MR PET ER STEPHEN VOL MINK : In short in the context of this tender
no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t t h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : May I refer you to page 975.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s I a m o n p a g e 9 7 5 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C o u ld y o u p l e a s e i d e n t if y t h a t d o c u m e n t
for us?
20

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h is is th e d o c u m e n t t h a t M r Br ia n

M o le f e h a d p u t t o g e t h e r t o e x p l a in h is r e a s o n s fo r o v e r l o o k in g o r
r e s c i n d i n g t h e N e o t e l a w a r d a n d a w a r d i n g t o T - Sy s t e m s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d i f y o u m a y r e f e r t o p a g e 9 8 1 .
U n d e r th e p a r a g r a p h “ A p p r o v a l ” a n d t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

What it says under the heading

Page 164 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
“ Ap p r o v a l ” i t s a y s :
“ Ba s e d o n th e e x p l a n a t i o n s g iv e n a b o v e I r e q u e s t t h e
Group

Chief

Fi n a n c i a l

O ff ic e r,

Group

Chief

I n f o r m a t io n O ff ic e r a n d G r o u p C h i e f S u p p ly C h a in
O ff ic e r t o n o te m y d e c i s i o n s t o a w a r d b u s in e s s t o T S y s t e ms i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 2 0 . 5 o f t h e Pr o c u r e m e n t
Procedures

Manual

and

I

am

o v e r r id in g

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n m a d e in t h e T E A R R e p o r t w h ic h
s t a n d s fo r Te n d e r E v a l u a ti o n a n d R e c o m m e n d a ti o n
10

R e p o r t .”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w h o s i g n s th e m e m o ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Mr M o l e f e s i g n s th e m e m o .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w m a y I t h e n r e fe r y o u b a c k t o p a g e
39 of your statement. Exhibit BB2 .1A. Are you there?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : P a g e 3 9 o f m y s t a te m e n t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Page 39 of your statement.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a r a g r a p h 8 8 t a k e u s th r o u g h it ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W e l l I s a y i n p a g e 8 8 t h a t Mr M o le f e

20

b a s e d h i s d e c is io n o n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e b o a r d h a d s u b - d e l e g a te d t h e
a u t h o r i ty t o a p p r o v e th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s t o h i m a s t h e G r o u p C h ie f
E x e c u t iv e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : And I – ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I w il l m a k e t h e p o i n t la t e r t h a t o n a
c o r r e c t r e a d in g o f th e d e le g a ti o n t h e b o a r d d e le g a t i o n i t w a s t o

Page 165 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
w h o e v e r h o ld s t h e p o s t o f G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e a t th e ti m e t h e
d e c is i o n is ta k e n a n d n o t to h i m p e r s o n a l ly j a .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o th e r w o r d s n o t to h i m a f te r t h e i n c u m b e n t o r a f te r
a n e a r l ie r i n c u m b e n t h a d m a d e t h e d e c is i o n ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f h e w a s t h e i n c u m b e n t a t th e ti m e t h a t t h e d e c is i o n
was made he could have done what he did but not when somebo dy who
h a d o c c u p i e d th e s a m e p o s i ti o n h a d a lr e a d y e x e r c is e d t h e p o w e r o n e
10

w a y o r a n o t h e r th a t is w h a t y o u s a y ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir i f I c a n j u s t a d d p e r h a p s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O r c la r i f y o n e t h i n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ev e n i f h e w a s t h e i n c u m b e n t a n d h e
e x e r c is e d h i s a u th o r i ty a t t h a t p o i n t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B a s e d o n t h e f a c t s o f th e m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

20

MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

O u r v i e w i s i t w o u l d s t il l n o t h a v e

b e e n j u s ti f ie d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

To o v e r lo o k N e o t e l a n d a w a r d t o T -

S y s t e ms .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t t h a t g o e s t o j u s t if i c a ti o n .

Page 166 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

I t h o u g h t e a r l ie r o n y o u w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e

a u t h o r i ty ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t h e d i d n o t h a v e t h e a u t h o r i ty t o m a k e a d e c is i o n
o n a t e n d e r o n w h ic h s o m e b o d y o c c u p y i n g t h e p o s i ti o n b e f o r e h e t o o k
t h e p o s i t io n h a d a lr e a d y m a d e th e d e c is i o n .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : H a d a lr e a d y d e c id e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B e c a u s e t h e o n e p o i n t , t h e l a t te r p o i n t , g o e s t o
10

a u t h o r i ty.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a s th e o t h e r p o in t y o u m a k e …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Is j u s ti f i c a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

G o e s t o j u s ti f ic a t i o n .

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Let us even put context to that – to the –
t o a d i s c u s s io n w i t h t h e C h a ir w it h r e fe r e n c e t o p a g e 9 8 3 o n E x h i b i t –
yes are you there?
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : I am there.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t t h a t th is w a s th e
d e l e g a ti o n f r o m t h e b o a r d t o th e G C E ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To a p p r o v e th e …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To a p p r o v e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 167 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h is i s th e d e l e g a t io n a n d it s a y s

t h a t th e b o a r d r e s o l v e d to d e l e g a t e a u th o r i ty t o t h e G C E t o a p p r o v e th e
n e t w o r k s e r v ic e s R F P. I t w a s t o w h o e v e r t h e h o l d e r o f th a t p o s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d a n a c t in g G C E i s f o r a ll in t e n t s a n d p u r p o s e s
a GCE?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : The GCE.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A s l o n g a s h e o r s h e is a c t in g ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is e x a c t ly m y p o i n t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

B u t le t u s e v e n m a k e t h e p o in t e v e n

m u c h m o r e f u r th e r. L e t m e r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 9 8 7 . N o w w e n o w k n o w
t h a t th e b o a r d d id d e l e g a t e t h e p o w e r to t h e G C E b u t w i t h n o u n c e r t a i n
t e r m s w h a t y o u s e e o n p a g e 9 8 7 i t i s a d e l e g a ti o n , s u b - d e le g a ti o n t o
M s S h a r l a P ill a y, a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d c o u l d y o u p le a s e r e a d o n t h e r e c o r d
20

w h a t d o e s it s a y i n e x p r e s s t e r m s a n d a ls o e m p h a s is in g o n t h e d a t e s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir i t s a y s :
“ I , B r i a n M o l e fe , in m y c a p a c it y a s G r o u p C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e h e r e b y d e le g a te a ll t h e p o w e r o f a u t h o r i t y
vested

in

me

to

Sharla

P i ll a y

Chief

E x e c u tiv e

Tr a n s n e t P ip e li n e s fo r th e p e r i o d 2 8 O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 t o

Page 168 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
1 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 .”
And then he just says:
“ I t r e q u ir e s t h a t a c o m p r e h e n s iv e r e p o r t o f in c i d e n ts
a n d o c c u r r e n c e s b e f o r w a r d e d t o m y o ff ic e o n m y
r e tu r n .”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . W h i le k e e p i n g t h a t p a g e o p e n m a y
I t h e n r e f e r y o u b a c k to p a g e 9 7 3 .

Now if you look at the sub -

d e l e g a ti o n o n p a g e 9 8 7 a n d a ls o l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t , t h e a p p r o v a l
d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 9 7 3 a n d y o u l o o k a t t h e s i g n a t u r e o f M s S h a r la
10

P il l a y a t t h e b o t t o m w h a t w a s t h e d a t e w h e n s h e a p p r o v e d ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : On page 973?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a t t h e b o tt o m .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : The date is 31 October 2013.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

S o i t f e l l w i t h i n t h e d a t e s o f th e s u b -

d e l e g a ti o n i n p a g e 9 8 7 , a m I c o r r e c t ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

That is correct Chair on page 987

s h e is d e l e g a t e d t o a c t fr o m 2 8 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 t o 1 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o t h e r e is n o d o u b t t h a t a t t h e ti m e

w h e n s h e s i g n e d s h e h a d a l l t h e fu ll c a p a c it y t o d o s o ?
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w m a y I r e f e r y o u b a c k t o p a g e
40 of your…
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e ju s t s o t h a t I c a n
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F o ll o w.
CHAIRPERSON :

F o ll o w w h a t t h e i s s u e s a r e .

Page 169 of 208

A s w e g o f o r w a r d w i th

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h e m a t t e r is t h e r e a n y s u g g e s t i o n t h a t M r Br i a n M o l e fe ’s d e c is i o n to
r e s c i n d M s P i l la y ’s d e c i s i o n o r t h e d e c is io n t h a t h a d b e e n m a d e
before?

I s t h e r e a n y s u g g e s ti o n t h a t h is d e c is i o n m a y n o t h a v e b e e n

b a s e d o n a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g i n g o o d fa i th t h a t h e h a d th e p o w e r t o d o
w h a t h e d i d e v e n i f t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g m a y b e m is t a k e n ?

Is t h e r e

s u g g e s t io n o f a n y t h i n g b e y o n d t h a t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir t h e r e i s a n i n d i c a t io n o f t h a t i n
t h e m e m o i ts e l f th a t h e s ig n e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h e r e h e i n ti m a t e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t o n h is r e a d i n g o f th e P P M .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t h e w a s e n t i tl e d to o v e r r i d e th e
d e c is i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o i f I l o o k o n ly a t t h a t m e m o r a n d u m .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t h e s ig n e d .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e r e is a s u g g e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s u g g e s t io n
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

B u t h e in t e r p r e te d t h e a p p li c a b le

rules.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 170 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o a s t o a ll o w h i m t o r e s c in d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u d o m o r e th a n t h a t M r Vo l mi n k m a y I
r e fe r y o u to p a g e 4 0 o f y o u r w i tn e s s s t a te m e n t w i t h p a r t ic u l a r r e f e r e n c e
t o p a r a g r a p h 9 0 . A r e y o u th e r e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a r e s a y in g to t h e C h a ir th e r e :
“ I n m y v i e w t h e G C E ’s r e a s o n in g w a s f l a w e d in a
n u m b e r o f r e s p e c t s .”
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
“ H e la c k e d th e a u th o r i ty t o t a k e t h e d e c i s io n .

The

d e c is i o n i ts e lf w a s t a k e n i n a p r o c e d u r a l u n fa ir
m a n n e r a n d i r r e l e v a n t c o n s id e r a ti o n s w e r e t a k e n i n to
a c c o u n t w h e n t h e d e c is i o n w a s m a d e . I e l a b o r a t e o n
t h e s e a s p e c ts b e lo w.”
C o u ld y o u p l e a s e t e ll u s a n d t a k e u s t h r o u g h y o u r o b s e r v a ti o n s in
r e l a ti o n t o t h e r e a s o n i n g o f t h e G C E a t t h e ti m e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s . C h a ir s o I – I p o in t o u t i n m y
20

s t a te m e n t a n d I h a v e a l r e a d y d e a l t w i t h t h is t o s o m e e x t e n t . I s a y f ir s t
t h e p o w e r v e s te d i n t h e G C E b y t h e b o a r d to a w a r d b u s in e s s t o N e o te l
h a d a lr e a d y b e e n e x e r c is e d b y t h e a c ti n g G C E S h a r l a P ill a y a n d c o u l d
not therefore be exercis ed again.

I m a k e th e p o in t a l s o in p a r a g r a p h

9 0 . 2 i f I g o d o w n t o th e s e c o n d s e n te n c e I s a y t h a t :
“ I a g r e e w i th t h e v i e w s th a t w e r e e x p r e s s e d i n a

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c e r t a i n l e g a l o p i n io n th a t w a s o b t a in e d b y e x te r n a l
a u d it o r s .

T h a t t h e b o a r d d i d n o t d e l e g a t e a u th o r i ty

t o B r i a n M o l e fe p e r s o n a l ly b u t r a th e r to t h e h o l d e r o f
t h e p o s t a n d t h a t w h e n S h a r la P i ll a y e x e r c is e d h e r
powers as the holder of the post she discharged the
s u b - d e le g a ti o n t h a t w a s e n t r u s t e d to t h e G C E b y t h e
b o a r d .”
I th in k t h a t d e a l t w i th t h e – th a t d e a l s w i th t h e a u t h o r i t y is s u e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t w e w e r e d i s c u s s in g e a r li e r.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s y o u s e e I a m n o t s u r e b u t y o u a n d M r M o l e fe

w o u ld b e m u c h m o r e f a m il ia r w i t h th is f il e t h a n I a m . I a m n o t s u r e h o w
m u c h v a lu e t h e r e is i n lo o k in g a t y o u r c r it ic is m o f th e d e c i s i o n i f th e
id e a is n o t t o s a y t h e r e w a s n o g o o d fa it h , m is u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e
p o s i ti o n h e r e .

Th e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g e ls e .

S o i n o t h e r w o r d s if y o u

a c c e p t t h a t h e m a y h a v e i n g o o d f a i t h m a d e a m is ta k e t h e r e m i g h t n o t
b e m u c h v a l u e in g o i n g t h r o u g h e v e r y t h i n g b u t i f th e id e a is t o s a y n o ,
n o , n o w h e n y o u l o o k a t a ll o f t h e s e th in g s th e r e w a s s o m e th i n g e l s e
b e h in d th is d e c is io n , t h e n t h a t is d i ffe r e n t .
20

So otherwise it becomes

ju s t a p o in t o f la w.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : J a . N o , n o , n o C h a ir it is m o r e – i t is
m o r e th a n th a t .
CHAIRPERSON : It is more than that.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I d id in d i c a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

Page 172 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : E a r l i e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t if I lo o k a t c e r t a in p a r a g r a p h s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : In M r M o le f e ’s s ta t e m e n t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

There

is

a

s u g g e s ti o n

th a t

he

in t e r p r e t e d …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e P P M i n a w a y th a t a ll o w e d h i m

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To r e s c i n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d I h a v e e x p l a in e d w h y t h a t is n o t
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is n o t c o r r e c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

B u t C h a ir t h e – t h e p o i n ts w h ic h I

m a k e a l it t le b i t f u r th e r o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Is i f y o u th e n l o o k a t t h e s u b s t a n c e

o f t h e d e c is i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 173 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Moving aside …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : H is – h is a u t h o r i ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I f o n e c o n s i d e r s t h a t h e b a s is h is

d e c is i o n o n c e r t a in r is k …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Fa c to r s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : P e r t a i n i n g t o N e o te l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h ic h w e r e c o m p r e h e n s iv e ly d e a l t

with …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : By m a n a g e m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e n it s u g g e s ts a t l e a s t a l e v e l o f

ir r a t i o n a l i ty o r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It - i t l a c k s a …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A c r e d ib l e b a s is …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH ENVOL MINK: For how that decision was made …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 174 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To o v e r l o o k N e o te l …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d g o t o T- Sy s te m s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h a t p r e c i s e ly m o t iv a t e d …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Mr Molefe I – I cannot – I am not in a
p o s i ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : To a s c r i b e a n y m o ti v e s t h a t I h a v e n o
knowledge of myself …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t l o o k i n g a t t h e s u b s ta n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d t h e j u s ti f ia b ili t y o f t h e d e c i s i o n

…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It s t r ik e s m e a s a p a t e n tl y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ir r a t i o n a l d e c i s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

H m - a n d th is M r M o l e f e – I a p o l o g is e M r M o k o e n a

t h is is a m a t te r i n w h i c h th e r e is a j u d g m e n t o f th e H ig h C o u r t i s it n o t T- S y s te m s o r i s t h a t a n o t h e r m a t te r ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It is th e o th e r T- S y s t e ms .

Page 175 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h e r e a r e a f e w T- S y s t e m s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It is th e o n e w i t h ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e r e a r e a f e w C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t is w h y w e a r e in t e r r o g a t in g t h e

f a c ts o f t h i s o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e y m a d e f r o m t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e my t h i n k in g i s ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w il l ta k e it in t o a c c o u n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

But that is why we want to take you

t h r o u g h t h e e n tir e p ic t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

U l ti m a t e l y w e l e a v e i t t h e r e u p u n t il

maybe …
20

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e c h o o s e s t o p u t h is v e r s io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O r a n y t h i n g e ls e b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t is i m p o r t a n t f o r u s t o i n te r r o g a te th e s e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
f a c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w y o u m a y p r o c e e d . Yo u w e r e
d e a li n g w i t h p a r a g r a p h 9 0 . 2 ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s a n d I th in k w e h a v e d e a lt w i th

( in t e r v e n e s ) …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : With everything and I want you to …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A u t h o r i ty.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I w a n t y o u t o g o to p a r a g r a p h 9 0 .3 .
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

9 0 . 3 C h a ir I – I m a k e th e p o in t t h a t

t h e d e c is i o n i ts e lf w a s t a k e n in a p r o c e d u r a l ly u n f a ir m a n n e r. C e r ta in
r is k s w e r e i d e n t i fi e d r e l a ti n g t o N e o t e l y e t N e o t e l is n o t a ff o r d e d a
p r o p e r o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e r is k s a n d t o g i v e t h e ir s i d e o f th e
s t o r y a n d I a t t a c h a – a d r a f t l e tt e r t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d f o r N e o t e l w h e r e
I h a d i n d ic a t e d t h e i m p o r ta n c e o f f o l l o w in g a p r o c e d u r a l ly f a ir p r o c e s s
a s k in g t h e m fo r th e ir s i d e o f th e s t o r y b e fo r e a d e c is io n is m a d e t o
d is q u a l if y t h e m .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M a y I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 9 9 0 o f B B –

EXHIBIT BB 2.1C?
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s , I a m o n p a g e 9 9 0 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I s t h a t t h e l e t te r t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r in g

to?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , c a n y o u t a k e u s th r o u g h t h e

c o n te n ts ?

Page 177 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h e c o n t e n ts i s t h a t i t is a le t t e r o f

r e g r e t a d d r e s s e d t o N e o t e l a n d i t s a y s th a t :
“ Af t e r

extensive

a d j u d ic a ti o n

we

e v a lu a t io n

of

regret

advise

to

c o m p a n y ’s b i d w a s n o s u c c e s s fu l .

all

bids

and

that

your

T h e fo ll o w i n g

b i d d e r h a s b e e n a ffo r d e d p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r s t a t u s –
T- S y s te m s S o u t h A f r ic a ( P ty ) L t d – a n d w e r e g r e t
that

your

company

was

unsuccessful

on

t h is

o c c a s i o n a n d w o u l d i n d ic a te th a t t h is d e c is i o n w a s
10

b a s e d p r i m a r ily o n t h e u n d e r m e n ti o n e d f a c t o r s a n d
t h e y m e n t io n b u s i n e s s r is k c o n s i d e r a ti o n .”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

W e w ill d e a l w it h t h a t a s

( in d is ti n c t) b u t y o u a l s o - th e r e is a h a n d w r i t t e n in s c r ip t io n i n s id e t h e
( in d is ti n c t) .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I – I r e c e i v e d
t h is le t t e r - I th i n k fo r r e v i e w. I t w a s b r o u g h t t o m e f o r s o m e – f o r s o m e
p u r p o s e a n d I w r o t e th is h a n d w r it t e n n o t e t o Mr E d w a r d Th o m a s w h o is
t h e C h ie f – w h o w a s th e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t – G r o u p C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t
O ff ic e r a t t h e ti m e a n d I s a i d t o h i m :
20

“ H i E d d ie , p l e a s e n o te t h a t in t e r m s o f S e c t io n 3 o f
PA J A

when

m a t e r i a lly

Tr a n s n e t

and

makes

adversely

a

a ffe c t s

d e c is i o n
the

which

r ig h ts

or

le g i t i m a te e x p e c t a ti o n s o f a n e n t it y i t m u s t f o l lo w a
p r o c e s s w h ic h is p r o c e d u r a l ly f a ir. I n t h is i n s t a n c e
it w o u ld m e a n th a t b e f o r e a fi n a l d e c i s i o n is t a k e n

Page 178 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
to overlook Neotel they must a, be inform ed of the
r is k s w h ic h t h e c o m p a n y p o s e s to Tr a n s n e t b , b e
in f o r m e d t h a t Tr a n s n e t p r o p o s e s n o t t o a w a r d th e
c o n tr a c t to t h e m b e c a u s e o f th o s e r is k s a n d c , b e
in v i te d to m a k e a n y r e p r e s e n ta t io n s t o Tr a n s n e t
w h ic h t h e y w is h t o m a k e .

Tr a n s n e t m u s t a ls o

c o n s i d e r s u c h r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s b e f o r e m a k i n g a fi n a l
d e c is i o n .”
A n d I r e fe r t o c e r t a in c a s e l a w w h i c h d e a ls w i t h th e – t h e q u e s ti o n o f
10

p r o c e d u r a l f a ir n e s s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t f u n d a m e n t a lly a t th e t i m e w h e n

M r M o l e fe r a is e s a j u s ti f ic a ti o n o f r is k i n o r d e r t o o v e r t u r n t h e p o s i ti o n
t h is is a t t h e s t a g e w h e r e a ll t h e r is k w e r e d e a lt w i th b y m a n a g e m e n t .
A m I c o r r e c t?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w c a n y o u r e fe r p le a s e t o p a g e 9 9 2 o f
t h e s a m e E X H I B I T B B 2 . 1 C a n d id e n ti fy t h a t d o c u m e n t f o r th e C h a ir ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t h is is a d o c u m e n t w h i c h t h e

t e c h n ic a l e x p e r t s h a d p r e p a r e d a s a r e s p o n s e to t h e r is k s w h ic h t h e
20

G r o u p C h ie f Ex e c u ti v e h a d e a r l i e r id e n ti fi e d a n d t h e y d e a l q u i t e
c o m p r e h e n s iv e l y w i th w h y th o s e r i s k s h a d b e e n m it i g a t e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w o u l d M r M o l e fe h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f
t h is d o c u m e n t a t t h e t i m e w h e n h e o v e r t u r n e d th e d e c i s i o n ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir

I

cannot

s t a te

th a t

c a t e g o r ic a l ly b u t h e w o u l d h a v e – h e w o u ld h a v e h a d s e e n th is

Page 179 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
document at some point in the process.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d th e r i s k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I j u s t w a n t t o s a y a g a i n th a t w e j u s t n e e d t o b e
c a r e fu l b e c a u s e i f y o u th i n k y o u h a v e g o t t h e p o w e r t o r e s c i n d a
d e c is i o n th a t h a s b e e n m a d e b y s o m e b o d y b e lo w y o u i n a n i n s ti t u ti o n
…
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

O r a b o d y b e fo r e y o u – y o u m a y w e l l c o m p le t e l y –

y o u m a y w e l l f e e l t h a t y o u a r e e n t i tl e d t o a t ta c h y o u r o w n w e ig h t t o
10

d i ff e r e n t f a c t o r s th a t n e e d t o b e t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t . S o i f – if th e i d e a
is t o – t o s a y M r M o l e fe in d e c id in g to r e s c in d t h is w a s m o ti v a t e d b y
f a c to r s t h a t h a v e g o t a n y t h i n g to d o w i t h c o r r u p t io n a n d s t a t e c a p t u r e a
s tr o n g c a s e w o u l d h a v e t o b e m a d e .

So – so there needs to be a

p r o p e r a p p r e c ia t io n o f t h a t y o u k n o w – b e c a u s e d i ff e r e n t p e o p le c a n
a tt a c h d i ff e r e n t a m o u n t o f w e i g h t t o d i ff e r e n t fa c t o r s a n d a r r iv e a t
d i ff e r e n t d e c is io n s a n d i t w o u ld n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n th a t t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r o n e h a s b e e n m o t iv a te d b y c o r r u p t in t e n t i o n s o r – a n d s o o n
b u t i f o f c o u r s e y o u c a n h a v e a c a s e w h e r e th e r e is q u i te a s t r o n g c a s e
to be made.
20

S o I j u s t w a n t t o s a y w e n e e d t o b e c a r e f u l a b o u t th a t .

O t h e r w is e w e m u s t s p e n d a lo t o f ti m e o n w h a t is r e a l ly j u s t m a y b e a
n ic e p o i n t o f la w t o d e b a t e b u t r e a lly n o t h a v i n g m u c h i n te r ms o f
a d v a n c i n g w h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n is a b o u t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir w e a r e l o o k i n g w it h t h e w i t n e s s

a n d o t h e r w i t n e s s e s a t t h e t o ta li ty o f …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 180 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Tr a n s a c t i o n s t h a t w e r e c o n c l u d e d in a

s i m il a r m a n n e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e c o n fi n e m e n t s a n d o th e r t h i n g s

w h e r e – w h i c h t h e y i n v o lv e d Mr M o l e f e . W h a t w e d id n o t w a n t to d o …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Is t o l e a v e t h e f a c ts w h i c h a t t h e ti m e

g o v e r n a n c e f e lt s o s tr o n g a b o u t a n d to s a y th a t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e y s u g g e s t e d q u i t e a p a t te r n a n d t h e y
a ls o o v e r l a p …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E A : To o th e r tr a n s a c t io n s . T h is is j u s t b u t o n e o f
them …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w e u n d e r s t a n d th a t i f w e a r e lo o k i n g
a t t h i s o n e i n is o l a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Maybe one might come to that debate …

20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Of whether or not …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I s t h is m a y b e a g e n u i n e e r r o r t h a t w a s

made …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B y s o m e b o d y w h o d id n o t a p p l y th e la w
correctly …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: But …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h is h a s a n a c c u m u la t iv e e ff e c t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h e n y o u d e a l w it h i t a n d a n a ly s e a l l

t h e o th e r tr a n s a c ti o n s …
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h a t is w h y w e a r e d e a li n g w it h i t f o r
now …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O n t h e b a s e o f N e o t e l a n d it …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ta k e s u s t o o th e r tr a n s a c ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : But we endeavour in mind…
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d i t is a p o i n t w e w il l ta k e i n b u t I

t h i n k th a t i t i s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t t h a t h e p la c e s …

Page 182 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e s e fa c ts o n r e c o r d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d M r Vo l m i n k a ls o fe l t v e r y s tr o n g

about …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H o w t h i s m a tt e r w a s d e a l t w i t h a n d t h a t
is w h y w e a r e i n t e r r o g a ti n g i t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d – c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m a n d I ju s t r e mi n d b o t h o f y o u th a t I h a v e n o t h a d
a c h a n c e to g o t h r o u g h a ll …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

A ll t h i s b e c a u s e I d i d n o t f in d it y e s te r d a y w h e n I

wanted to go through. So both of you having gone through it you – you
m i g h t h a v e a b e tt e r a p p r e c i a ti o n o f w h y th is m ig h t n o t b e a c a s e o f ju s t
a n in n o c e n t e r r o r o f l a w t h a t w a s m a d e b y s o m e b o d y w h o m ig h t n o t b e
a l a w y e r, o k a y …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s l o n g a s y o u a p p l y y o u r m in d - b o th o f y o u a r e
la w y e r s – a s lo n g a s y o u a p p ly y o u r m i n d t h a t i s fi n e . I w i ll – w h e n I
h a v e g o n e th r o u g h – i f I t h in k t h a t w e a r e n o t g o i n g a n y w h e r e w i t h i t …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l t e l l y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir I h a v e i n d ic a t e d e a r li e r t h a t I –
I a m n o t i n p o s i ti o n t o a s c r i b e a n y m o tiv e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I d o n o t – I c a n n o t s t a te t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : In a l l h o n e s ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m w h e r e y o u a r e , y e s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A s a w it n e s s to t h e C o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : W h a t I a m a b l e to d o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I s t o l o o k a t t h e b a s is u p o n w h ic h th e
d e c is i o n w a s m a d e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d t o h ig h l i g h t m y c o n c e r n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t th e r e w a s n o - a n d i n m y v i e w –
n o r a ti o n a l …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B a s is f o r i n v o k in g t h e s e v a r i o u s r is k s
…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d a w a r d i n g t o a n o t h e r b id d e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d t h a t is th e fu r t h e s t t h a t I c a n

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t a k e m y – my s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . It is i m p o r t a n t t o b e a r t h a t in m i n d b e c a u s e y o u
c o u l d h a v i n g r e g a r d t o a l l o f t h e fa c to r s th a t w e r e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t o n
t h e b a s is o f w h ic h t h e d e c is i o n w a s r e s c i n d e d b y M r Br i a n M o l e f e . Yo u
c o u l d s a y th is is ir r a t io n a l b u t i t m i g h t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n t h e r e i s
c o r r u p ti o n .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: I – I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Concede.
10

CHAIRPERSON :

S o – s o i t c o u ld b e c o m p le t e l y ir r a ti o n a l b u t n o t b e

c o r r u p ti o n b u t i t m a y b e th a t w h e n y o u l o o k a t i t t o g e t h e r w i t h m a y b e
o th e r th in g s t h a t a r e to fo ll o w i t m i g h t s tr e n g t h e n a v ie w t h a t e v e n t h i s
o n e m a y h a v e b e e n in f lu e n c e d b y s o m e t h in g l ik e t h a t.

So I was just

a l e r ti n g y o u t o s a y a s w e m o v e f o r w a r d o n t h e i s s u e j u s t b e a r t h a t in
mind.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
proceed.

W e d o C h a ir.

Ye s M r Vo l m i n k y o u m a y

Yo u h a v e n o w s a id t h a t i n t e r m s o f t h e r i s k b e i n g a

ju s t i fic a ti o n t o o v e r t u r n t h e d e c is io n t h a t c o u ld n o t h o l d w a t e r i f o n e
20

h a s r e g a r d to w h a t m a n a g e m e n t h a s a l r e a d y d o n e i n o r d e r to m i t ig a te
t h e r is k s ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d t h e n t o d e a l w i t h
p a r a g r a p h 9 0 . 5 a n d th e p a r a g r a p h t h a t fo ll o w s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .

Page 185 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: It is on page 41.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : P a g e 4 1 . C h a ir i n th o s e p a r a g r a p h s
w e m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t a lt h o u g h th e P P M a l lo w s f o r m a te r i a l r is k t o b e
c o n s i d e r e d d u r i n g a n a d ju d ic a t i o n s t a g e w h a t it s t a t e s i s t h a t :
“ T h e c o n c e p t o f m a te r i a l r is k m u s t b e i n te r p r e t e d
r e s tr ic ti v e ly a n d b e l i m i te d t o th o s e in s t a n c e s w h e r e
Tr a n s n e t w o u l d b e s e v e r e ly p r e j u d ic e d b y t h e a w a r d
o f a b u s i n e s s to a p a r t ic u l a r b i d d e r.”
W h a t w e t r y i n g t o a v o i d C h a ir is w h e r e r is k s a r e i n v o k e d a t th e 11 t h
10

h o u r a s a r e a s o n t o o v e r l o o k t h e s e l e c t e d b i d d e r w h e n t h e u n d e r ly in g
ju s t i fic a ti o n d o e s n o t e x is t a n d i n s o m e c a s e s w h e r e t h o s e r is k s h a d
a lr e a d y b e e n t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t d u r i n g t h e e a r l ie r e v a lu a ti o n s t a g e . S o
t h a t is th e p o i n t I a m m a k e o n p a g e 9 6 a n d i n w h a t f o ll o w s t h e n i n s o r r y i n p a r a g r a p h 9 0 . 5 – in w h a t f o l lo w s C h a ir I s i m p ly q u e s t i o n M r –
M r M o l e fe ’s i n t e r p r e ta t io n o f c e r ta i n o f t h e r u l e s w h i c h h e s a i d a l lo w e d
h i m t o – t o r e s c i n d a n d t h e n I t h in k w h a t i s m o s t c o n c e r n i n g i s w h a t is
in 9 0 . 7 w h e r e i n M r M o l e fe ’s s t a t e m e n t – a t l e a s t i n h is – i n h is
m e m o r a n d u m h e s a y s t h a t h e w il l t a k e t h a t 2 4 8 – t h e f u r th e r R 2 4 8
m il li o n d is c o u n t i n t o a c c o u n t a s a r e a s o n to a w a r d to – t o T- Sy s te m s

20

a n d w e h a v e i n d ic a te d t h a t t h a t s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n t h e c a s e . T h e –
t h a t p r o c e s s h a d a lr e a d y c l o s e d a n d i n f a c t t h a t g a v e T - Sy s te m s a n
u n f a i r a d v a n t a g e o v e r o t h e r b id d e r s w h o h a d n o t b e e n a ffo r d e d t h e
s a m e o p p o r t u n i ty.
CHAIRPERSON :

W h a t – w h a t j u s ti f ic a ti o n d i d h e a d v a n c e f o r t a k in g

in t o a c c o u n t s o m e t h in g t h a t w a s d o n e a ft e r t h e p r o c e s s h a d b e e n

Page 186 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c lo s e d – i f h e d i d a d v a n c e a n y ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir p e r h a p s i t w o u l d b e b e t t e r i f I

r e fe r r e d y o u t o h is s t a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

To h i s m e m o r a n d u m a t l e a s t – m y

a p o lo g i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir th e m i c .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y - in t h e – i n h is l e tt e r o f 2 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 a t
10

p a g e 9 9 0 – in h i s l e t t e r t o N e o t e l i t d o e s n o t s e e m if I s e e c o r r e c tl y –
h e d o e s n o t s e e m t o m a k e a n y r e f e r e n c e t o t h i s r e d u c e d p r ic e t h a t w a s
o ffe r e d a f t e r th e p r o c e s s h a d c lo s e d . A m I r i g h t?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Th e r e i s n o r e fe r e n c e in t h a t l e t te r

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d t h a t is o n e e n t it y t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t o ld if

t h a t h a d b e e n a f a c to r. Is i t n o t ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
CHAIRPERSON :

B e c a u s e t h e y w e r e t h e – t h e b id d e r th a t h a d b e e n

s u c c e s s fu l i n te r ms o f w h a t – o f t h e p r e v io u s d e c is i o n ?
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n t h e le t t e r t o t h e m h e o n ly t e lls t h e m a b o u t t h e
b u s i n e s s r is k s a s t h e r e a s o n – a m I r i g h t?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

H e o n ly m e n ti o n s b u s i n e s s r is k . H e

d o e s n o t m e n t io n t h e is s u e o f p r i c i n g b u t y o u a s k m e w h a t t h e
ju s t i fic a ti o n f o r t a k in g i t i n t o a c c o u n t w a s …

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d y o u w i ll fi n d th a t ju s ti fi c a t io n

d e a lt w i t h i n h is m e m o r a n d u m o n p a g e 9 8 0 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : From paragraph 21?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : At paragraph 21, correct.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Yo u c a n s u m m a r is e …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : In a …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

L e t u s w a i t fo r t h e C h a ir t o f in d th e

page.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m t h e r e n o w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A t t h e b o t t o m C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 2 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir w h a t h e s a y s is :
“ Po s t t h e c l o s e o f t h e f in a l o ff e r s b e i n g s u b m i tt e d T S y s t e ms in d ic a t e d th a t th e y u n fo r t u n a t e l y d u e t o
s tr ic t ti m e li n e s s e t b y Tr a n s n e t o n ly m a n a g e d t o g e t
c o n fir m a t io n

fr o m

t h e ir

shareholder

on

c e r ta i n

p r i c i n g e l e m e n ts a n d th a t t h e y w o u l d b e in a
p o s i ti o n t o r e d u c e t h e p r ic e s u b m i t te d t h e w e e k
20

b e f o r e b y a f u r th e r R 2 4 8 m il li o n .”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

But to underline here he says post the

c lo s e o f th e fi n a l o ff e r s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Ye s , p o s t t h e c lo s e o f th e fi n a l

o ffe r s . O v e r t h e p a g e h e s a y s :
“ I a p p r o v e t h a t th e 2 4 8 m i ll io n b e t a k e n i n t o

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c o n s i d e r a ti o n a s p a r t o f T - Sy s t e m s b e s t a n d f i n a l
o ffe r a s t h e c o m m i t m e n t w a s m a d e i n w r i t in g t o
Tr a n s n e t a n d s h o r tly a f t e r th e b e s t a n d fi n a l o ffe r s
h a v e c l o s e d a n d I d o n o t b e l ie v e a n y o t h e r b i d d e r s
w e r e p r e j u d ic e d b y t h i s .”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W o u ld y o u a g r e e w i t h th a t r e a s o n i n g ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o I d o n o t – I d o n o t a g r e e w it h t h a t
r e a s o n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t is t h e p o i n t o f c lo s i n g th e s y s t e m if a n y b o d y
10

w h o c o m e s a f te r c a n b e a c c o m m o d a t e d ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d th e n – a n d t h e n t h e o t h e r s a r e n o t g iv e n a

c h a n c e t o – t o c o m e u p a ls o w i th – t o c o m p e t e w i th o r m a tc h t h a t l a t e s t
o ffe r.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir i t – i t v io l a t e s t h e p r in c i p l e o f

e q u a l tr e a t m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W h ic h is s o f u n d a m e n t a l i n t h e

bidding process.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Everyone

needs

to

be

tr e a t e d

e q u a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Yo u a r e a ff o r d e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty to

g iv e y o u r b e s t a n d fi n a l o ffe r b y a c e r t a i n d a t e …

Page 189 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

A n d t h a t is – t h a t is w h e n th e

p r o c e s s e n d s – w e l l t h a t i s w h e n t h a t s t e p in t h e p r o c e s s c lo s e s . Yo u
c a n n o t th e n i n v it e o n e p a r t ic u l a r b i d d e r a f u r t h e r b i t e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

O r g iv e a p a r tic u la r b i d d e r a fu r t h e r

b i t e a t th e c h e r r y. It is j u s t n o t r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I g u e s s t h a t t h e le a s t y o u c a n d o i f y o u r in t e r n a l
p r o c e s s e s p e r m i t is t o r e o p e n th a t f o r e v e r y b o d y b u t e v e n w i th t h a t y o u
10

m u s t c h e c k w h e t h e r y o u r i n te r n a l p o l ic ie s a n d p r o c e s s e s a ll o w y o u to
d o t h a t . I f t h e y d o n o t a l lo w y o u – y o u s h o u l d n o t r e o p e n .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Pr e c is e l y C h a ir a n d t h e r e is – t h e r e

is n o p r o v i s i o n i n o u r p o li c i e s th a t s a y s a f te r b e s t a n d fi n a l o ffe r s a n d
t h e a w a r d is t o b e m a d e n o w y o u c a n r e o p e n a n d s t a r t t h e p r o c e s s
a fr e s h .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b e c a u s e th e y – t h e y h a d – T- Sy s t e m s h a d t h e

s a m e a m o u n t o f t i m e a s e v e r y b o d y b e f o r e t h e c l o s i n g o f th e p r o c e s s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n th e y – w h e n th e y a r e l a te t o p u t in a r e d u c e d
20

o ffe r if y o u t a k e th a t i n t o a c c o u n t i t m e a n s t h a t y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t
c lo s i n g d a te f o r th e m e ff e c ti v e ly.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is e x a c t ly y o u s h i ft i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x t e n d in g th e c l o s i n g d a t e f o r t h e m .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : A n d y o u h a v e m o v e d o u t th a t c l o s in g
date.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d C h a ir w h a t I c a n a ls o a d d t o w h a t

y o u h a v e c a u t i o n e d u s t h a t b e a r w i th u s t o l e a d t h e e v id e n c e o f fu r t h e r
w i t n e s s e s l ik e Mr M o h a m e d y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d o t h e r s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o fo ll o w a n d
d e a li n g a l m o s t w i th t h e s a m e is s u e s …
CHAIRPERSON : Same issues.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d a ls o c l a r if y i n g c e r ta in e v e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o , n o t h a t is …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Bear with us.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e - t h a t is fi n e ja .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK: Now…

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I w a s g o in g to m o v e o n e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u c a n – y o u m a y t h e n p r o c e e d w h a t

t h e n tr a n s p ir e d .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir n e e d le s s to s a y t h a t t h e r e w a s
ju s t w i d e s p r e a d c o n c e r n a m o n g s t th e l e g a l p e o p l e , g o v e r n a n c e p e o p l e ,

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p r o c u r e m e n t p e o p le , t h e I T D e p a r t m e n t a b o u t t h e G C E ’s d e c i s i o n a n d
w e t h e n t h o u g h t i t b e s t t o s e e k th e o p in i o n o f c o u n s e l o n t h e m a t t e r
and

during

December 2013

we

arranged

a

c o n s u l t a ti o n

with

A d v o c a t e G i lb e r t M a r c u s to o b t a i n h i s v ie w o n th e l e g a li ty o f t h e
d e c is i o n .
CHAIRPERSON :
been

w i th

B e f o r e y o u t e ll m e a b o u t h is v i e w h o w l o n g h a d y o u

Tr a n s n e t

by

the

ti m e

this

d e c is i o n

was

made

by

M r Br ia n M o l e f e – y o u r s e l f a n d m a y b e i n t e r m s o f t h is p a r tic u la r u n it i n
w h ic h y o u – h a d y o u b e e n t h e r e fo r q u i t e s o m e ti m e ?
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I t h i n k p r o b a b ly a b o u t th r e e to f o u r

…
CHAIRPERSON : Three years.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye a r s .
CHAIRPERSON : So – and he – how long had he been there? Do you
know?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir I w i ll h a v e t o h a z a r d a g u e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It is a ls o a c o u p l e o f y e a r s .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

I - I w a n te d to a s k w h e t h e r s o m e t h in g l ik e t h is h a d

e v e r b e e n d o n e b e f o r e to y o u r k n o w le d g e .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir t o t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e

b e f o r e – b e f o r e th is I h a v e n o t c o m e a c r o s s a n i n s ta n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n e v e r c o m e a c r o s s i t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S u c h a s t h is .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t o b v io u s ly y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w i f i t h a p p e n e d a t

Page 192 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
Tr a n s n e t a n y t h i n g li k e t h a t t h is h a d h a p p e n e d b e f o r e y o u r t i m e ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : I cannot.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I c a n n o t s a y.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y, a lr i g h t.

S o y o u s o u g h t s e n i o r c o u n s e l’s

opinion?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir w h a t s e n io r c o u n s e l th e n

a d v is e d is th a t – h e a d v is e d t h a t e x tr a n e o u s f a c to r s w e r e t a k e n in t o
a c c o u n t i n m a k i n g th e d e c is i o n – t h e a w a r d t o T- S y s t e ms . H e a d v is e d
t h a t t h e p r o c e s s w a s p r o c e d u r a l ly u n f a i r a n d n o t in a c c o r d a n c e w i th
S e c t io n 2 1 7 a n d h e a d v is e d th a t Tr a n s n e t s h o u l d r e v ie w i ts d e c is io n t o
a w a r d t o T- Sy s te m s a n d p r o c e e d w i t h th e a w a r d t o N e o t e l . I a m g iv i n g
y o u a s u m m a r y o f i t b u t th a t is in e s s e n c e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : But there was also an external audit on
t h is is s u e .
20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o r r y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e r e w a s a ls o a n e x t e r n a l a u d i t .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Correct

C h a ir.

S o m e ti m e

late

e x t e r n a l a u d i t s a ls o s o u g h t a le g a l o p i n i o n w h ic h I a m – w h ic h I h a v e
a ls o a t t a c h e d a n d t h e e x te r n a l a u d it l e g a l o p i n i o n a ls o c o n f ir m e d t h e
v ie w t h a t e x tr a n e o u s f a c to r s w e r e c o n s i d e r e d . I t r a is e d t h e is s u e a b o u t

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
M r M o l e fe ’s a u t h o r i ty. I t r a i s e d th e q u e s t io n o f th e c o n f lic t o f in t e r e s t
a n d t h e r o u n d in g o ff a n d i n e s s e n c e i t a l s o c o n c l u d e d t h a t th e a w a r d
w a s n o t c o r r e c tl y m a d e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w fr o m p a g e - 4 4 M r Vo l m in k – f r o m

p a r a g r a p h 9 8 y o u d e a l w it h th e - n o t t h e C J ’s – th e G C E ’s d e c is i o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Are you …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To r e v o k e T- Sy s t e m ’s p o s i t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e t a li a ti n g ?
(Laughing)
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No.
CHAIRPERSON : Well before …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s t h a t t i m e o f th e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e w e – b e f o r e w e g e t – w e g e t th e r e M r Vo l m in k
m y – m y m in d i s s ti ll o n t h e is s u e th a t i n h i s m e m o r a n d u m …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

O n t h i s i s s u e o f th e r e d u c e d p r ic e fr o m T- S y s t e ms

t h a t c a m e a f t e r t h e p r o c e s s h a d b e e n c lo s e d . M r B r i a n M o l e f e s a y s h e
w a s a p p r o v in g t h a t it b e t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t th e r e d u c e d p r ic e – r e d u c e d
o ffe r o n th e b a s is t h a t h e d i d n o t t h in k t h e r e w o u l d – t h e r e w a s a n y
20

p r e j u d ic e to t h e o th e r …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Bidders.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B i d d e r s b u t I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t . W h o
s a i d th e y w o u ld n o t h a v e r e d u c e d f u r t h e r i f t h e y w e r e g iv e n a c h a n c e
a n d i f t h e y k n e w th a t T- S y s te m s w e r e r e d u c in g f u r th e r ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h a t i s p r e c i s e ly t h e d i ff ic u l t y C h a ir

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
b e c a u s e h e e v e n w e n t o n t o s a y i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y t o r e q u e s t a n y
o th e r b e s t a n d f in a l o ffe r fr o m v e n d o r s a s a ll t h r e e b i d d e r s w e r e g i v e n
t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to c o n fir m t h e i r p r ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y a r e n o t g iv e n t h e s a m e o p p o r t u n i ty.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : N o t th e s a m e o p p o r t u n i ty.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d I a m ju s t t r y i n g t o th i n k w h e t h e r y o u n e e d a

la w y e r to l o o k a t t h a t i n th a t w a y o r w h e th e r p u t ti n g a s i d e l a w j u s t
s i m p l e - fr o m a s i m p l e u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t p r o c u r e m e n t m u s t b e f a ir a n d
tr a n s p a r e n t t o a ll p a r ti e s .
10

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y. C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u o u g h t t o s e e t h a t y o u a r e b e i n g u n f a i r …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : By a l l o w i n g a p a r ty a f te r th e p r o c e s s h a s b e e n c l o s e d
t o b r i n g i n t h e ir r e d u c e d o ff e r a n d t h e o t h e r p a r ti e s d o n o t g e t g iv e n t h e
s a m e o p p o r t u n i ty.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

I do not think one needs to be a

la w y e r to s e e th a t th e r e i s a p r o b le m w i th t h is .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I t h i n k ju s t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r s e n s e o f …
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O n e ’s b a s i c s e n s e o f f a ir n e s s
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

W o u l d s u g g e s t th a t th e r e is o n e

p a r t ic u l a r b id d e r w h o h a s b e e n g iv e n p r e fe r e n ti a l t r e a t m e n t t o t h e
p r e j u d ic e o f t h e o th e r b i d d e r s .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : And – and I cannot see anyway how
t h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n j u s ti f ie d .
CHAIRPERSON :

B e c a u s e w h e n y o u s a y t h e c l o s i n g d a te th a t is t h e

c lo s i n g d a t e . Yo u m u s t b r i n g i n y o u r fi n a l a n d b e s t o ff e r s n o t l a t e r t h a n
t h a t d a t e . By i m p l ic a t i o n y o u a r e s a y i n g i f y o u b r i n g it l a t e r i t w ill n o t
be taken into account.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h a t is e x a c t ly r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

Ye s .

O t h e r w is e t h e i d e a o f a c lo s i n g d a t e lo s e s i ts

meaning.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Pr e c is e l y – p r e c is e ly.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t a s a fo ll o w u p t o t h e C h a ir ’s

q u e s t io n s a t t h a t s ta g e w h e n M r M o l e f e o v e r t u r n e d t h i s d e c is io n t h e r e
w e r e a lr e a d y s tr u c tu r e s a n d i n d i v i d u a ls w i t h a u t h o r i ty t h a t h a v e a p p li e d
t h e ir m i n d t o t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n s a n d i s s u e s o f p r ic i n g p e r t a i n i n g to
t h is t e n d e r. A m I c o r r e c t ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Correct.

S o e v e r y th in g w a s ta k e n

in t o a c c o u n t . E v e n t h a t 2 4 8 m i ll io n …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

Wa s b r o u g h t to t h e a t t e n t io n o f th e

e v a l u a t i o n t e a m a n d th e y s a i d w e w il l n o t c o n s id e r t h i s b e c a u s e i t i s
n o w a f t e r t h e c l o s i n g d a te a n d a s I t e s t if i e d e a r l ie r in m y v i e w th a t w a s
a b s o l u t e ly t h e c o r r e c t d e c is io n . S o it h a d b e e n – th a t i s s u e h a d b e e n
considered.

A ll p r ic i n g is s u e s w e r e o n t h e t a b l e a n d a d e c is i o n w a s

m a d e b a s e d o n th e p r i c i n g a s a t th e c l o s i n g d a te o f t h e b e s t a n d f in a l

Page 196 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
o ffe r s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d w h e n h e o v e r tu r n s t h i s d e c is i o n

d o e s h e c o n s u l t w i th g o v e r n a n c e o r a n y o t h e r s t r u c t u r e s o r s e e k c la r i ty
fr o m a n y o t h e r b o d y th a t d e a l t w i t h t h e m a t t e r ?
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

C h a ir

I

certainly

–

I

was

not

c o n s u l t e d a t a ll a n d I s e r i o u s ly d o u b t t h a t a n y o th e r a s s u r a n c e f u n c ti o n
w i t h i n Tr a n s n e t w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n s u l t e d b e f o r e t h i s d e c i s i o n w a s
made.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w fr o m p a g e 4 4 p a r a g r a p h 9 8 y o u d e a l
10

w i t h t h e G C E ’s d e c is io n to r e v o k e th e T - S y s t e m p o s it i o n a s a b id d e r –
p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r. H o w d o e s t h is n o w h a p p e n ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK:

C h a ir s o a f t e r th e e x t e r n a l a u d i t

fi n d i n g w a s m a d e , a n d a s I s a i d i t w a s a c c o m p a n i e d b y a le g a l o p in i o n
a s w e ll t h e G C E t h e n r e l e n t e d a n d h e d e c id e d h e w a s g o i n g to r e v o k e
T- S y s te m s s ta t u s n o w a s t h e p r e fe r r e d b i d d e r, a n d a l e t te r w a s w r i t t e n
t o T- Sy s te m s t o i n fo r m o f t h e G C E ’s d e c is io n to r e v o k e i ts a p p o i n t m e n t
a s th e p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

S o f ir s t ly h e o v e r t u r n s t h e d e c is io n t o

a w a r d th e te n d e r t o N e o t e l .
20

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK : Correct.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d h e d o e s th a t a l o n e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : H e d o e s th a t a l o n e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d n o w h e r e v o k e s t h e d e c is io n t o t h a t
h e h a s m a d e t o a w a r d t o T- S y s t e ms , h e r e v o k e s h i s o w n d e c is i o n ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s c o r r e c t th a t is w h a t h e d i d .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d t h a t is a f te r h e h a d b e e n fu r n is h e d w i t h s e n i o r

c o u n s e l ’s o p in i o n a n d o th e r r e p o r t s ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : C h a ir h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n f u r n is h e d
w i t h t h e a u d i t , t h e e x t e r n a l a u d i t fi n d i n g , o n S e n io r C o u n s e l’s o p i n i o n , I
d e a l w i t h t h a t a s w e l l in my s t a te m e n t , t h e r e w a s a p p a r e n t ly a r e q u e s t
m a d e n o t t o o b t a i n th e fi n a l w r i t t e n o p i n i o n fr o m S e n i o r C o u n s e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t a s fa r a s y o u k n o w h e w a s
t h e S e n i o r C o u n s e l’s o p i n i o n w a s n o t b r o u g h t to h is a t t e n t i o n f o r
whatever reason?
10

MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

F o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n C h a ir S e n i o r

C o u n s e l ’s w r it t e n o p i n io n .. .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Wa s n o t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a d e a v a i l a b le t o h i m .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Wa s n o t b e i n g m a d e a v a il a b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , a n d y o u w i ll d e a l w it h t h e r e a s o n s t h e r e ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I d e a l w i t h t h a t a l s o in m y s t a te m e n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w c a n y o u p r o c e e d to d e a l w i t h t h e

c o n fi n e m e n t o f th e C C T V S e c u r i ty ( i n d is t in c t ) c o n tr a c t t o N e o t e l , y o u
20

a r e d e a li n g .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON :

I’ m s o r r y M r M o k o e n a , s o t h e r e v o c a t i o n o f h is

d e c is i o n to a w a r d t h e t e n d e r to T- Sy s te m s w a s a s f a r a s y o u k n o w
b a s e d l a r g e ly i f n o t s o l e l y o n t h e a u d i t r e p o r t?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : O n t h e a u d i t f i n d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t , th a n k y o u .

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir m a y b e fo r c o m p l e te n e s s i n r e l a ti o n
t o th a t q u e s ti o n m a y I r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 1 0 5 1 , s o a s a t l e a s t w e c a n
d e a l w i t h t h i s m a t t e r o n i ts f a c t u a l b a s is a n d t o s e e w h a t Mr M o le f e
c o m m u n ic a te s to T- Sy s t e m s .

Is t h a t , c o u l d y o u i d e n t if y th a t le t t e r M r

Vo l m i n k ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

O n p a g e 1 0 5 1 i t ’s t h e le t t e r w r i t te n

b y M r M o l e fe t o T- Sy s t e m s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w h a t d o e s h e c o n v e y to t h e m ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : It s a y s t h a t :
10

” We r e f e r t o y o u r l e t t e r d a t e d 2 0 M a y i n r e s p o n s e t o Tr a n s n e t ’s
s t a te d in t e n t i o n t o r e v o k e y o u r s t a t u s a s p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r i n
r e s p e c t o f N e t w o r k S e r v ic e s Te n d e r. Tr a n s n e t c o n s i d e r e d y o u r
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a s s e t o u t in y o u r l e t t e r a n d h e r e b y w is h t o
in f o r m y o u o f o u r fi n a l d e c is i o n , w h ic h is t h a t y o u r p r e fe r r e d
bidder status has been revoked.”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : And nothing was being said.
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : J a , n o th i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w I w a s r e fe r r i n g y o u t o p a g e 4 5 , n o w
y o u ’r e d e a l i n g w i t h th e c o n f i n e m e n t o f t h e C C T V.

20

M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC : Can you please take us through?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h is i s th e n e x t tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t I

w a s a s k e d t o c o n s i d e r a n d to c o m m e n t o n C h a ir, a n d i t r e l a te s t o a
c o n fi n e m e n t t o N e o t e l r e g a r d i n g a C C T V u p g r a d e o r th e u p g r a d e o f
C C T V c a m e r a s a n d e q u i p m e n t w i t h i n t h e p o r ts , a n d w h a t I s a y i n

Page 199 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
p a r a g r a p h 1 0 3 f o l l o w i n g i s t h a t a c o n f i n e m e n t fo r t h e c o n t r a c t fo r C C T V
u p g r a d e t o N e o t e l w a s s u b m it t e d b y Mr Ta u M o r w e w h o w a s t h e C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e o f T N PA a n d i t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e a t
t h e ti m e a n d a c o p y o f t h a t c o n fi n e m e n t is t h e n a d d r e s s e d .
I m a k e t h e p o i n t th a t I a l s o d o n ’t r e c a ll a n y s ta g e w h e r e t h e
g o v e r n a n c e fu n c t io n w a s a s k e d to r e v i e w t h e c o n f in e m e n t a n d I a m n o t
a b l e t o fi n d a n y r e c o r d o f th e p r i o r r e v ie w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y I r e fe r y o u to p a g e 1 0 6 6 C h a ir, i t ’s
EXHIBIT BB2.1C.
10

CHAIRPERSON : Did you say 1066?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

1 0 6 6 C h a ir.

C a n y o u p le a s e I D t h a t

document for us.
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK:

T h i s is t h e m e m o r a n d u m r e q u e s t in g

c o n fi n e m e n t w h ic h w a s s u b m i t te d to t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d w h a t is t h e d a t e o f t h e m e m o ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e d a t e o f th e m e m o i s t h e 2 4 t h o f
A p r il 2 0 1 4 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e s u b je c t ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e s u b j e c t r e l a te s to a r e q u e s t fo r
20

a p p r o v a l t o p r o c u r e a C C T V S e c u r it y S o l u ti o n fo r T N PA a c r o s s a ll
ports.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

C a n y o u p l e a s e ta k e u s th r o u g h t h e

c o n te n ts u n d e r th e p u r p o s e .
MR PETER STEPH EN VOLMINK :
s u b m is s io n i t s a y s t h a t

S o u n d e r t h e p u r p o s e o f th e

t h e p u r p o s e is to r e q u e s t t h e G r o u p C h i e f

Page 200 of 208

09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
E x e c u t iv e t o a p p r o v e t h e a w a r d , t o a p p r o v e a n d a w a r d b u s i n e s s fo r th e
procurement of CCTV cameras and related maintenance through a
c o n fi n e d p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s t o t h e v a l u e o f R 1 4 2 m il li o n a n d s o m e
c h a n g e , fr o m N e o t e l, s e c o n d ly t h e a w a r d o f b u s i n e s s v ia t h e c u r r e n t
N e o t e l M a s t e r S e r v ic e s A g r e e m e n t f o r t h e i n s t a l la t io n o f t h e C C T V a n d
s e c u r i ty

s o l u ti o n

to

the

value

of

R 1 8 6 m il li o n

a ll o w i n g

sole

a c c o u n t a b i li ty t o N e o t e l f o r e ff e c t iv e w o r k i n g o f t h e s o lu t io n a n d t h e n to
a p p r o v e u n f o r e s e e n C A P E X i n t h e v a lu e o f R 2 5 2 m il li o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
10

N o w l e t m e r e fe r y o u b a c k t o y o u r

w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t o n p a g e 4 5 a n d y o u m a y p r o c e e d d e a l in g w i th t h e
c o n te n ts o f p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 o n w a r d s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 C h a ir I m a k e t h e
point

that

the

memo

provides

a

m o tiv a ti o n

for

c o n fi n i n g

th e

p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e C C T V c a m e r a s to N e o t e l a n d f o r a w a r d i n g b u s in e s s
v ia t h e e x i s t i n g N e o t e l M S A f o r t h e i n s ta ll a t i o n o f th e c a m e r a s a n d I
m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t th e g r o u n d s fo r th e c o n f in e m e n t w a s s ta t e d , th e r e
w e r e tw o g r o u n d s b a s i c a ll y, fir s tly th e r e w a s u r g e n c y a n d s e c o n d ly
c o m p a ti b i li ty w i t h e x is ti n g p r o d u c ts a n d s e r v ic e s a n d I s a y t h a t I w a s
a s k e d b y th e C o m m i s s io n ’s i n v e s ti g a t o r s t o p r o v i d e m y c o m m e n t s o n
20

t h e g r o u n d s o f c o n fi n e m e n t , in p a r t ic u l a r w h e th e r t h e y w e r e s o u n d o r
not sound.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , c a n y o u p r o c e e d d e a li n g w i th t h a t .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : T h e n a s f a r a s u r g e n c y is c o n c e r n e d
C h a ir t h is is w h e r e I h a d a d i ff ic u l t y b e c a u s e t h e – a n d t h e m a in
d i ff ic u l ty t h a t I h a d w i t h t h is is t h a t t h e u r g e n c y w a s n o t u n fo r e s e e n ,

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
t h e P P M s p e c i f ic a l ly s a y s th a t i t m u s t b e a n u n fo r e s e e n u r g e n c y. Yo u
c a n ’ t s e e th e u r g e n c y c o m i n g w a y d o w n t h e r o a d a n d t h e n a t t h e la s t
m i n u t e y o u i n v o k e u r g e n c y a n d I m a k e t h e p o i n t i n my s t a t e m e n t in
p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 1 I s a y t h a t t h e g r o u n d f o r c o n fi n e m e n t a s s t a te d i n t h e
P P M i s t h a t c o n f i n e m e n ts w i ll o n l y b e c o n s i d e r e d w h e r e a g e n u i n e
u r g e n c y h a s a r is e n w h ic h s h o u l d n o t b e a t tr i b u ta b le t o a la c k o f p r o p e r
p l a n n in g , i n s u c h c a s e s a p p r o p r i a te a c t io n m u s t b e t a k e n a g a i n s t t h e
in d i v i d u a l r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e b a d p l a n n in g b u t y o u c a n ’ t u s e th a t b a d
p l a n n in g a s a b a s is f o r u r g e n c y, i t’s t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t w e h a d
10

e a r l ie r, a n d I m a k e t h e p o i n t a l s o i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 . 3 t h a t th e f a c t o r s
m e n ti o n e d f o r u r g e n c y w e r e e n ti r e ly f o r e s e e a b l e a n d a f e w, I t h in k
t h e r e ’s p r o b a b ly a b o u t t h r e e f a c t o r s t h a t w e r e m e n ti o n e d , t h e f ir s t is
t h a t T M PA c o u ld b e c o m e n o n - c o m p l ia n t w i t h c e r ta i n i n te r n a ti o n a l
s h i p p i n g a n d p o r t fa c i li ti e s s e c u r i ty c o d e s .
N o w i f I c a n p a u s e th e r e f o r a m o m e n t , i t i s s a i d t h a t w e c o u l d
b e b l a c k l is te d b y t h e U S A d m i n i s tr a t io n a n d i t m e n t io n s v a r io u s
c o n s e q u e n c e s w h ic h c o u ld a r is e , i f t h e C C T V c a m e r a s w e r e n o t p u t i n
p l a c e , a n d i t o c c u r r e d t o m e C h a ir t h a t o n e d o e s n ’ t r e a li s e n o w a l l o f a
s u d d e n t h a t w e a r e n o n - c o m p li a n t w i t h t h e s e c o d e s .

20

I f w e r e a d th is

s t a te m e n t a s a w h o le s o m e o f t h e s e C C T V c a m e r a s h a d b e e n d e f e c t iv e
f o r a v e r y l o n g p e r i o d o f t i m e , a n d t h e u r g e n c y w h ic h n o w e x is t s w a s
n o t a n u n f o r e s e e a b l e u r g e n c y, s o b a s e d p u r e l y o n a c o ld r e a d i n g o f t h i s
d o c u m e n t I c a m e t o th e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t i t c o u l d n o t b e s a i d t h a t t h is
w a s a n u n f o r e s e e a b l e u r g e n c y.
T h e s e c o n d f a c t o r p e r t a in s t o i n s u r a n c e c la i m s , t h e r e w a s a

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
c o n c e r n t h a t o u r i n s u r e r s m a y n o t c o v e r u s i f t h e r e ’s a n y in c i d e n t w h ic h
h a p p e n s i n t h e p o r ts , b e c a u s e o f o u r d e f e c tiv e e q u i p m e n t, b u t o n c e
a g a in t h a t i s n o t u n f o r e s e e a b le , i t ’s n o t a s i f w e r e a l is e t o d a y t h a t t h e
in s u r e r s w il l n o t c o v e r u s f o r d e f e c ti v e e q u i p m e n t w h e n in f a c t t h i s i s a
s i tu a ti o n t h a t h a s b e e n c o m in g o n f o r a v e r y lo n g ti m e , a n d th e th ir d
r e a s o n w h ic h in m y v i e w w a s t h e w e a k e s t o f a l l t h e r e a s o n s p e r ta in s t o
t h e f a c t t h a t c e r t a i n P F M A r e p o r ta b le i t e m s h a d t o b e r e m e d i a t e d , I
m e n ti o n th a t in p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 . 3 a n d a p p a r e n t ly t h is r e l a t e s t o t h e f a c t
t h a t a c o m p a n y c a ll e d E S S h a d i n s t a l le d t h is e q u i p m e n t a t s o m e p o i n t
10

in th e p a s t , a n d t h a t t h i s h a d c r e a t e d fr u i tl e s s a n d w a s t e f u l e x p e n d i t u r e
o r ir r e g u la r e x p e n d i t u r e a n d t h e m e m o r a n d u m s u g g e s ts t h a t i t is u r g e n t
t h a t w e t a k e r e m e d i a l a c ti o n t o a d d r e s s t h e P F M A is s u e s .
N o w I s a y i t ’s th e w e a k e s t o f t h e r e a s o n s C h a ir, b e c a u s e t h e
w a y o n e h a s to r e m e d i a te a fi n d i n g o f i r r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e o r f r u i tl e s s
a n d w a s t e fu l e x p e n d i t u r e is b y t a k i n g d i s c i p l in a r y s t e p s a g a in s t th e
p e r s o n o r p e r s o n s w h o a r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h a t h a v in g o c c u r r e d a n d
p o s s i b ly in s ti t u t i n g c i v il o r c r i m in a l a c ti o n , b u t I c o u ld n o t u n d e r s t a n d
w h y t h o s e fa c t o r s w e r e p u t f o r w a r d a s a g r o u n d s fo r u r g e n c y.
H a v i n g s a i d t h a t I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e s e c o n d g r o u n d , w h ic h i s

20

c o m p a ti b i li ty w i t h e x i s t i n g p r o d u c t s o r s e r v ic e s I th o u g h t th a t t h a t
g r o u n d w a s – it w a s p l a u s ib l e , i t w a s a c r e d i b l e g r o u n d , w e a r e g o in g to
N e o t e l w h o h a s t h e n e tw o r k s e r v i c e s c o n t r a c t , a n d t h e C C T V c a m e r a s
h a v e to i n t e r fa c e w i th th e n e t w o r k w h ic h t h e y h a v e p u t i n p l a c e , t h e r e
n e e d s to in t e r - o p e r a b i li ty b e t w e e n t h e C C T V c a m e r a s a n d t h e n e t w o r k
s y s te m , s o I f e l t i n f a i r n e s s th a t I c o u l d n ’ t t a k e is s u e w i t h t h e s e c o n d

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
g r o u n d b u t I w a s q u i te c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e f ir s t g r o u n d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if t h e r e w a s o n e g r o u n d w i t h w h ic h y o u to o k n o
is s u e

would

that

be

good

enough

for

purposes

of

ju s ti fy in g

c o n fi n e m e n t ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

T h a t’s a n i n t e r e s ti n g q u e s t i o n , th e

P P M c e r t a i n ly d o e s n ’ t s a y t h a t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : It d o e s n ’ t p r e s c r i b e .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : I t d o e s n ’ t p r e s c r i b e , i t s a y s a ll y o u r
10

grounds must be correct, having said that I am aware of some authority
f o r t h e v ie w t h a t i f r e a s o n s a r e g i v e n f o r a d e c is i o n a n d o n e o f w h ic h is
d e f e c t iv e i t in f e c ts t h e v a li d i ty o f t h e d e c i s io n a s a w h o le , s o t h a t is a
concern as well.
CHAIRPERSON :

J a , w e l l I t h in k I k n o w w h a t y o u ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t , I

k n o w th a t a s w e ll b u t I – I ’ m n o t s u r e t h a t it ’s l o g ic a l a n d I s a y t h a t n o t
k n o w i n g w h e th e r I ’v e e v e r b e e n p a r ty t o a d e c is i o n s u c h a s t h a t .

If

t h e r e a r e – i f y o u h a v e g o t t h r e e o r f o u r r e a s o n s w h y y o u s a y th a t
s o m e t h i n g is g o o d th e s e r e a s o n s m a y h a v e d i ff e r e n t w e i g h t , y o u m i g h t
have one that may be good enough that would have been good enough
20

e v e n i f y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e th e o t h e r t h r e e o n w h ic h t o b a s e th a t t o s a y t h i s
t h is th in g is g o o d , y o u m ig h t h a v e th r e e o r f o u r r e a s o n s w h ic h e a c h o f
w h ic h o n i ts o w n is n o t g o o d e n o u g h t o s u s t a i n t h a t v i e w a n d t h e r e f o r e
c a n o n ly s t a n d i f y o u h a v e t h e o t h e r r e a s o n s a s w e l l , j u s t li k e y o u c o u l d
h a v e a r e a s o n t h a t m a k e s a p a r ti c u la r d e c is io n f a t a l ly d e fe c tiv e o n i ts
o w n i t c o u l d h a v e a r e a s o n t h a t s u s t a i n s i t d e s p i t e h o w w e a k t h e o th e r

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
r e a s o n s a r e o n e w o u l d t h i n k b u t m a y b e t h a t ’s – t h a t m a y b e a d e b a t e
f o r a n o t h e r d a y s o a n y w a y b u t f o r t h i s p a r t ic u l a r j o b th a t y o u w e r e
p e r f o r m i n g w h a t w a s y o u r v i e w, w a s w h e t h e r, w a s i t w h e t h e r t h e f a c t
t h a t o n c o m p a t i b il i ty s i n c e y o u c o u ld n o t ta k e is s u e w i t h th a t , th a t
s h o u l d s u s t a in , th a t s h o u ld b e o k a y, o r is i t s o m e th in g th a t y o u t o o k n o
v ie w o n ?
MR PET ER STEPHEN VOLMINK : Chair I was asked to express a view
o n w h e t h e r th e g r o u n d s f o r c o n fi n e m e n t w e r e v a li d o r i n v a l id , I h a v e n ’ t
e x p r e s s e d a f u r t h e r v i e w w h e th e r i f o n e g r o u n d is f o u n d t o b e in v a li d
10

w h e t h e r i t ta in t s t h e d e c is io n a s a w h o le , s o I c o n f i n e d m y s e l f t o t h e
t a s k t h a t w a s s e t f o r m e a n d I c o m m e n t e d t h a t I th o u g h t o n e g r o u n d
w a s i n v a l id b u t t h e s e c o n d g r o u n d w a s v a l i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B u t M r Vo l m in k m a y b e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll w e ’ v e g o t s e n i o r c o u n s e l h e r e s o t h e y w i ll

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : .. . m a y b e I h a v e r e a d y o u r s t a te m e n t f iv e
ti m e s m o r e t h a n h i m , e v e n t h a t g r o u n d t h a t y o u s a id y o u m a y f in d a s a
ju s t i fic a ti o n w h e n y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 5 .5 y o u s e e m n o t to b e
20

c o n v i n c e d a b o u t t h e v e r y s o u n d g r o u n d o f c o m p a ti b i li ty, c a n y o u p l e a s e
t a k e t h e C h a ir . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s p e r h a p s I s h o u l d ta k e t h e C h a ir
through that.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : S o I ’ m s a y in g I d o n ’t a g r e e w it h t h e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
g r o u n d o f u r g e n c y, I t h in k t h a t t h e r e w a s s u ffic i e n t g r o u n d t o c o n fi n e o n
– t o N e o t e l o n t h e g r o u n d s o f c o m p a t ib il i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : B u t w h e r e I ta k e is s u e w i t h t h e – w i th
w h a t t h e n fo ll o w s i n t h is – in th e m e m o r a n d u m is t h a t m e n ti o n i s t h e n
m a d e o f t h e fa c t t h a t th is C C T V e q u i p m e n t h a d t o s p e c i fi c a ll y b e
s o u r c e d f r o m a c o m p a n y c a ll e d N ic e , N - i- c - e , a n d t h a t N e o t e l h a d
recommended that Nice Equipment be obtained because Nice was
p r e p a r e d to g iv e c e r t a i n g u a r a n te e s a n d w a r r a n t e e s a n d s o o n , b u t a s I
10

s a i d th e m e m o t h e n a l s o g o e s o n to s a y t h a t th is v e r y N ic e E q u i p m e n t
h a d r e a c h e d t h e e n d o f t h e ir u s e f u l li f e , t h a t t h e r e w a s a 6 4 % f a i lu r e
r a te o f t h e e q u i p m e n t , I u n d e r s ta n d t h e m o tiv a ti o n t o c o n fi n e to N e o te l ,
b u t i t c e r t a in ly w a s n ’ t n e c e s s a r y t o t h e n s a y o h a n d N e o t e l w i ll a ls o
o b t a i n o r p r o c u r e t h i s fr o m t h is o th e r e n ti ty w h ic h w a s n o t t h e s u b je c t
m a t t e r o f t h is c o n fi n e m e n t , I th in k th a t i s t h e p o i n t t h a t I ’ m tr y i n g t o
make.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is w h a t e v e r it is t h a t y o u a r e
s a y in g i n 1 0 4 . 5 d o e s n ’t r e l a te to w h e th e r c o n f in e m e n t i s ju s t i fi e d o r
n o t , i t r e l a te s t o w h e t h e r N ic e o r w h a t e v e r t h e y a r e c a l l e d , th e ir

20

e q u ip m e n t c o u l d b e u s e d , th a t ’s w h e r e – w h a t it r e la t e s t o ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

I r a is e t h a t q u e s ti o n , I s a y I d o n ’ t

u n d e r s t a n d w h y w e h a v e to b e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h i s N ic e o r N ic e
Equipment.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h a t h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h c o n f in e m e n t?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :

I t ’s g o t n o t h i n g a n d i n a n y e v e n t

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
y o u ’v e a lr e a d y s a i d t h a t t h e ir c o n fi n e m e n t is n o n - fu n c t io n a l a n d s o o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w o n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 6 y o u a ls o d e a l

w i t h t h e d is c o v e r i e s t h a t y o u m a d e p e r t a i n i n g t o N e o t e l , c o u l d y o u
p l e a s e s h a r e th a t w i t h t h e C h a ir ?
M R P E T E R S T E P H E N V O L M I N K : Ye s C h a ir I t h i n k s o m e ti m e a ft e r th e
a w a r d w e d is c o v e r e d o r i t w a s d i s c o v e r e d t h a t N e o t e l w a s a c t u a l ly n o t
r e g is t e r e d a s a s e c u r it y s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w i t h t h e p r iv a t e s e c u r i ty
in d u s tr y r e g u l a to r a n d t h e A c t , th e P r i v a t e S e c u r i ty I n d u s t r y R e g u l a ti o n
10

A c t r e q u ir e s r e g is tr a ti o n b e fo r e a n y s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s c a n b e p e r f o r m e d
a n d s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s i n c l u d e s th i n g s l i k e t h e i n s ta ll a ti o n o f C C T V
cameras.
W e d i d w r i te a m e m o r a n d u m s e tt i n g o u t o u r c o n c e r n s a r o u n d
t h e a w a r d t o N e o t e l b a s e d o n t h e ir n o n - r e g i s t r a t io n w i t h S I R A ,
a p p a r e n t ly th e M i n i s t e r o f P o l ic e e x e m p te d N e o t e l th e n fr o m t h e
r e q u ir e m e n t s o f S I R A a n d a c o n tr a c t w a s t h e n c o n c l u d e d w i t h N e o te l .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

B u t c o u ld t h a t e x e m p ti o n a ls o b e

a p p lic a b l e to Tr a n s n e t ?
MR PETER STEPHEN VOLMINK :
20

N o t h e e x e m p t io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n

a p p lic a b l e to t h e e n t i ty w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e r e g is t e r e d , s o th e
M i n is t e r e x e m p ts N e o t e l fr o m th a t p a r t ic u l a r r e q u i r e m e n t , n o t Tr a n s n e t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

M r C h a ir w e a r e a b o u t t o d e a l w i t h

a n o t h e r l o n g t o p ic o f t h e T- Sy s te m s a w a r d a n d I s e e it ’s 1 5 :5 1 i f n o t
1 5 : 5 3 , m a y w e d e a l w i th t h is t o m o r r o w a n d I c a n a s s u r e y o u t h a t w e w i ll
b e a b l e t o fi n a l is e t h e e v id e n c e o f M r Vo l m i n k to m o r r o w b e f o r e o n e

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09 MAY 2019 – DAY 91
o ’c l o c k , e v e n i f w e s ta r t a t te n o ’c lo c k w e w i ll s t il l b e a b l e t o f in a lis e i t .
CHAIRPERSON :

O h y o u d o n ’ t th i n k w e n e e d t o ta k e – g o u p t o h a l f

p a s t f o u r, y o u th in k t h e r e w il l b e e n o u g h ti m e t o f in is h to m o r r o w ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e r e w i ll b e e n o u g h ti m e C h a ir,

d e f in i te ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m o r r o w, o k a y, a n d i f w e s ta r t w h a t ti m e t o m o r r o w ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E v e n i f w e s t a r t a t te n o ’c l o c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n i f w e s t a r t a t t e n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e w i ll b e a b l e t o fi n a l is e t h e e v i d e n c e
10

b e f o r e o n e o ’c lo c k .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y, t h a t ’s fi n e t h e n , o k a y t h e n th a t ’s f i n e , l e t ’s

a d j o u r n th e n a n d w e w i ll s t a r t a t te n t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g .
then.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 1 0 M AY 2 0 1 9

Page 208 of 208

So adjourn