C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 9 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 8 0

20

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 9 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : C h a ir p e r h a p s t h e p a r ti e s s h o u l d
p l a c e th e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d a n d th e n i f I m a y a d d r e s s y o u a f t e r th a t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V R E G W I L L I S : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
10

ADV REG WILLIS:
W il lis .

As introduced to you in chambers I am Advocate

I a p p e a r w i t h m y le a r n e d f r i e n d M s G a b a w e a r e f r o m t h e

J o h a n n e s b u r g B a r w e a r e i n s tr u c t e d b y M a p h a ll a M o k a t e C o n r a d i e
Attorneys.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV REG WILLIS:

A n d w e a p p e a r f o r M r Wa k e f o r d .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV REG WILLIS:

To w h o m y o u g r a n t e d le a v e o n M o n d a y to c r o s s -

e x a m in e a n d h a v e h i s e v i d e n c e l e d . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
20

A D V D E O N P O O L : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV DEON POOL:

I am Advocate Deon Pool.

I am appearing on

b e h a l f o f M r A g r i z z i a n d M r Vo r s t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV DEON POOL:

A n d I a m a p p e a r in g i n s t e a d o f A d v o c a t e W i tz a n d I

Page 2 of 17

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
r e ta i n t h e i n s tr u c ti o n f r o m W i tz A t t o r n e y s i n t h is i n s t a n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV DEON POOL:

F o r p u r p o s e s o f t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV DEON POOL:

As it pleases.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s M r Pr e t o r iu s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir b r ie f ly a s s t a t e d i n

c h a m b e r s i t is p e r h a p s n e c e s s a r y fo r a s h o r t a d jo u r n m e n t a n d i f I c a n
ju s t e x p l a in t h a t t o y o u .
10

Yo u g r a n t e d a n o r d e r C h a ir o n th e 7 t h O c t o b e r g r a n t i n g L e a v e
t o M r Wa k e f o r d to c r o s s - e x a m i n e M e s s r s A g r i z z i a n d Vo r s te r a n d f o r
c e r t a i n o t h e r m a t te r s t o t a k e p la c e .
T h e p o s i ti o n is t o d a y t h a t M e s s r s A g r iz z i a n d Vo r s t e r w il l a p p ly
f o r a p o s t p o n e m e n t fo r v a r i o u s r e a s o n s t h a t w i ll b e c o m e a p p a r e n t in
due course.
T h a t a t p r e s e n t is i n te n d e d to b e o p p o s e d b y M r W a k e f o r d .
H o w e v e r t h e d i ff e r e n c e s b e t w e e n t h e p a r ti e s a n d a th o r o u g h jo i n t
s u b m is s io n t o y o u M r C h a ir i s y e t p o s s ib l e i f t h e p a r t ie s c a n b e g i v e n
a n o p p o r t u n i ty to s p e a k to t h e in v e s ti g a t o r in v o lv e d .

20

P a r t o f t h e d is p u t e b e t w e e n M e s s r s A g r iz z i a n d Vo r s te r o n th e
o n e h a n d a n d Mr Wa k e f o r d o n t h e o th e r r e l a t e s t o f a c t u a l m a t te r s o f
w h ic h t h e r e w o u ld b e r e c o r d s i n t h e B o s a s a d o c u m e n t a ti o n .

That

B o s a s a d o c u m e n t a ti o n is a t p r e s e n t u n d e r t h e c o n t r o l o f o n e o r o t h e r
c u r a to r s w h o a r e i n d is p u te a s t o w h o t h e c u r a t o r la w f u ll y i s .

That

m a t t e r w il l b e r e s o lv e d b y t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l l a t e r i n

Page 3 of 17

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
N o v e m b e r w h e n a n a p p e a l c o m e s b e fo r e it .
T h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n r e l a ti v e to th e s e d is p u te s w e r e s u m m o n s
a s f a r b a c k a s J u n e b y t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s b u t t h a t e x e c u t io n o f t h a t
s u m m o n s w a s r e s i s te d o n th e b a s is th a t th e d is p u t e h a d t o b e r e s o lv e d
b e f o r e a c u r a to r p r o p e r ly a p p o i n te d c o u ld r e l e a s e t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
A n d t h a t is t h e e x p l a n a t io n fo r t h e c u r a t o r s o f B o s a s a i n li q u i d a t i o n o r
t o n o t to c o m p ly w i th th e s u m m o n s .

That documentation may be

r e l e v a n t t o e i t h e r p a r ty i n p r o m o ti o n o f e i t h e r p a r ty ’s v e r s i o n o f t h e
f a c ts .
10

W e d o n o t k n o w th a t y e t u n ti l t h a t d o c u m e n ta t io n h a s b e e n

e x a m in e d . S o C h a ir w h a t I h a v e s u g g e s t e d t o t h e p a r ti e s is t h a t th e y
c o n fir m t h e p o s i t io n w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s a n d t h e n m a k e a n in f o r m e d
d e c is i o n a s t o w h e th e r i t w o u l d n o t b e p r e f e r a b le t o w a i t f o r th e
o u t c o m e o f t h a t p a r t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n b e fo r e p r o c e e d i n g . O t h e r w i s e
it m a y r e s u lt i n a m u lt i p l ic i ty o f h e a r i n g s w h ic h m i g h t b e n e f i t n o - o n e b u t
I w il l m a k e s u b m i s s i o n s o n b e h a l f o f t h e l e g a l t e a m i n d u e c o u r s e
d e p e n d in g o n t h e o u t c o m e o f th a t d is c u s s i o n .
S o i n s h o r t C h a ir w e a s k i n g f o r a v e r y s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t s o
t h a t th e p a r t ie s m a y s p e a k t o t h e i n v e s ti g a to r t o a s c e r ta in w h e t h e r
f u r th e r i n f o r m a t io n m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y f o r p r o p e r e x a m in a ti o n to t a k e

20

place.
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d – w h a t fi f t e e n m i n u t e s b e e n o u g h f o r t h a t

purpose?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s t w e n ty C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe twenty?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s p l e a s e .

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09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I w il l g r a n t th a t . W h a t m a y h a v e t o b e ta k e n

in t o a c c o u n t i s th a t t h e r e m a y b e n o g u a r a n t e e t h a t t h e d e c i s i o n o f th e
S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l w o u ld m e a n t h e e n d o f th a t d is p u t e .

I n th e

s e n s e t h a t o b v io u s I d o n o t k n o w t h e p a p e r s I – a n d s o o n .

I n th e

s e n s e th a t t h e r e is s ti ll t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t in c a s e s o m e b o d y is
u n h a p p y a n d i f th e y c a n f i n d a n is s u e t h a t f a ll s w i t h i n t h e j u r is d i c t i o n o f
t h a t c o u r t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C h a ir i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f p o s s i b l e d e l a y s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : N o I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t b u t i n a n y
e v e n t t h e c o m m i s s io n w o u ld t a k e s te p s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h e n to c o m p e l p r o d u c t io n o f th e
in f o r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . J a n o I a m m e n ti o n i n g th is j u s t s o t h a t e v e r y b o d y
a s t h e y c o n f e r w i t h o n e a n o t h e r t h e y d o n o t n e c e s s a r ily w o r k o n t h e
b a s is t h a t o n c e th e r e i s a d e c i s i o n o f th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l i t
n e c e s s a r i ly w i ll m e a n t h e e n d o f th e l i ti g a t i o n . I t m i g h t n o t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a t h a t i s t h e o n ly p o i n t j a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

It i s n e a r l y t w e n ty p a s t te n .

a d j o u r n u n t il t w e n ty t o e le v e n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e a d jo u r n .

Page 5 of 17

I w i ll

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r Pr e to r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Thank you.

The contemplated

m e e ti n g h a s b e e n h e l d . I t h a s g o n e s o m e w a y t o b r i n g in g a b o u t s o m e
c o n s e n s u s o f c o u r s e i t is a l l s u b j e c t t o y o u r d e c i s i o n C h a ir b u t a t l e a s t
t h e p a r ti e s h a v e [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Have reached a degree of

c o n s e n s u s . B u t M r W i ll is w o u l d l ik e to p l a c e s o m e m a t te r s o n r e c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

W e ll m a y b e b e f o r e M r W i ll is d o e s t h a t I

m u s t j u s t s a y t h a t f o r w h a t i t is w o r t h w h e n t h e d e c i s i o n to g r a n t M r
Wa k e f o r d L e a v e to C r o s s - e x a m i n e t h e t w o w i t n e s s e s w h e n th a t d e c is io n
w a s a n n o u n c e d o r m a d e a n d a n n o u n c e d a f e w d a y s a g o a n d I in d i c a t e d
t h a t t h e c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n w o u l d t a k e p la c e t o d a y. I t h i n k I s a i d t o d a y.
I t w a s o n t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t a ll p a r t i e s c o n c e r n e d w e r e a v a i la b l e .
I t m a y b e th a t t h e r e w a s s o m e m is u n d e r s ta n d i n g i n t e r m s o f th e
a v a i la b ili t y o f a ll p a r t ie s b u t c e r t a i n ly i t w a s o n th e u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t
20

t h e l e g a l t e a m u n d e r s t o o d t h e p a r t ie s t o b e a v a i la b le a n d t h e ir l a w y e r s
o r a t le a s t t h a t i s w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d a n d I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d
s o m e t h i n g b u t o t h e r w is e I w o u l d n o t h a v e is s u e d a d e c is io n a f e w d a y s
ago and say cross-examine must start in two days or three days’ time.
I w o u ld n o t h a v e d o n e t h a t . I w o u ld h a v e g iv e n e v e r y o n e e n o u g h t i m e .
S o it w a s o n l y d o n e o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n

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09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n t h e le g a l te a m a n d th e – a ll th e l e g a l – t h e
la w y e r s fo r th e v a r i o u s p a r ti e s a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t t h e y
w e r e a v a i la b le .

If I h a d u n d e r s to o d d i ffe r e n t ly I w o u l d h a v e a r r a n g e d

t h a t t h e y s h o u l d b e a n o t h e r ti m e . S o I t h o u g h t m a y b e I m u s t j u s t m a k e
t h a t c l e a r t h a t th a t is t h e c o n te x t i n w h i c h I s a i d t h e c r o s s - e x a mi n a ti o n
w o u ld t a k e p la c e t o d a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
ADV REG WILLIS:
10

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

C h a ir t h e – b e f o r e

c o m m u n ic a ti n g i n p r e c is e t e r m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E G W I L L I S : M y i n s tr u c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV REG WILLIS:

A l t h o u g h M r P r e to r i u s h a s i n d ic a t e d t h a t th e r e is

consensus.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E G W I L L I S : T h a t w e w i ll c o n c e d e t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV REG WILLIS:
20

T h a t p r e v a il .

I w o u l d j u s t li k e t o – I h a v e b e e n

in s t r u c t e d a n d w is h t o p l a c e th e fo ll o w i n g o n r e c o r d M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV REG WILLIS:

T h e f ir s t i s a d i s s a t is fa c t i o n o n t h e p a r t o f o u r

c li e n t M r Wa k e f o r d a s t o th e c o m m i t m e n t b y M r A g r iz z i a n d Mr Vo r s t e r
t o t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s a n d t o b e i n g w il li n g t o b e c r o s s - e x a m i n e d a n d to
h e a r h is e v id e n c e . Yo u w e r e h a n d e d w h e n w e s a w y o u i n c h a m b e r s t h e

Page 7 of 17

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
a p p lic a ti o n f o r a p o s t p o n e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV REG WILLIS:

M r C h a ir m a n I a m n o t g o i n g t o l a b o u r th e i s s u e s

b u t m u s t p la c e o n r e c o r d t h a t t h is a ff id a v i t t h a t w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u
ig n o r e s t h e fa c t s i n r e l a ti o n t o th e h is t o r y o f t h is m a t te r. T h e fa c t s i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h e la s t f e w d a y s a r e a s y o u k n o w t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E G W I L L I S : B u t t h e a ff id a v i t d o e s t w o t h i n g s . I t mi s r e p r e s e n ts
t h e f a c ts o v e r th e p a s t n u m b e r o f m o n th s i n f a c t s i n c e t h e 2 6 t h F e b r u a r y
10

w h e n o u r a p p lic a ti o n – o u r c l i e n t ’s a p p lic a t io n w a s b r o u g h t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H m .
ADV REG WILLIS:

I t s tr iv e s t o th e n t a r o u r c li e n t w i t h t h e r e s u l t s o f

t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV REG WILLIS:

T h is a ffi d a v it is w i lf u l ly m is l e a d i n g o f y o u M r

C h a ir m a n a n d t h i s c o m m is s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R E G W I L L I S : B u t i t s e r v e s n o p u r p o s e i n m e t a k i n g i t a n y f u r t h e r.
M r A g r i z z i k n o w s th e f a c ts a n d th is w il l p r o b a b ly b e c o m e m a t e r i a l i n t h e
20

f u t u r e i n h is c r o s s - e x a m in a t io n a s t o h is c r e d i b i li ty a n d h is r e li a b il i ty.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R E G W I L L I S : T h a t s p e a k s t o th e d is p a r i ty o f c o m m i t m e n t a n d t h e
fr u s tr a ti o n o u r c l i e n t h a s – h a s e x p e r i e n c e d s i n c e t h e 2 9 t h J a n u a r y
w h e n h e w a s i m p li c a t e d b y M r A g r i z z i b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n w i t h o u t
c o m p li a n c e o f t h e r u le s – w i th t h e r u l e s o f t h is c o m m i s s i o n th a t w a s

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09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
n e c e s s a r i ly d ir e c tly M r A g r iz z i ’s f a u l t b u t t h o s e w e r e c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t
p r e v a i le d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV REG WILLIS:

F o r M r Wa k e f o r d .

M r C h a ir m a n M r Wa k e f o r d h a s

d e c l in e d a ll o p p o r tu n i ty t o r e s p o n d to t h e m e d i a i n g o o d fa i th a n d in
a c c o r d a n c e w i th y o u r o w n c o m m e n ts i n t h is c o m m i s s i o n . H e h a s – h e
h a s h a d to fo r e g o w o r k o p p o r t u n i t ie s , e m p l o y m e n t o p p o r t u n i ti e s .

Yo u

w o u ld h a v e r e a d i n h i s a p p li c a t io n t h a t h is t e n u r e c a m e t o a n – a n
e m p l o y m e n t t e n u r e c a m e to a n e n d i n A p r il .
10

A n d h e h a s a ls o h a d t o

e x p e r i e n c e a c o n t i n u a l fl e s h i n g o u t o f n e w f a c ts a n d n e w i n fo r m a ti o n i n
t h e a ff i d a v i ts th a t h a v e c o m e b e f o r e t h is c o m m i s s io n . T h e p u r p o s e o f
t h e s e s u b m is s i o n s M r C h a ir m a n i s i n a s m u c h a s h e c o n c e d e s t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s t o d a y a n d c o n s e n s u a l ly y o u m a y o r d e r a p o s t p o n e m e n t
o f t h e p r o c e e d i n g s h e a s k s th a t – th a t y o u o r d e r t h e p a r t ie s t o r e t u r n a s
s o o n a s a t a l l p o s s i b l e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th e d i a r i e s o f y o u r s e l f a n d
t h e v a r i o u s o th e r s ta k e h o l d e r s in t h is – i n t h i s c o m m i s s i o n .

Mr

C h a ir m a n t h e – t h e d is c u s s i o n s t h a t e n d u r e d i n t h e a d j o u r n m e n t
b e t w e e n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g t e a m a n d t h e l e g a l te a m a n d t h e t w o o t h e r
le g a l t e a m s w a s t o th e e ff e c t th a t t h e r e is s o m e o u ts ta n d i n g i n f o r m a ti o n
20

w h ic h e i t h e r – w h ic h w i ll e i t h e r s u it o n e o r o th e r p a r ty o r n a r r o w th e
is s u e s . In t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s a n d i n k e e p i n g w it h h is c o m m i t m e n t t o
c o o p e r a t e h e is n o t le f t w i t h a n y o p p o r t u n i ty b u t t o a c c o r d w i t h t h e
a d v is e s g iv e n a n d th e g o o d f a i t h d e a l i n g s in p a r ti c u la r b y th e le g a l
t e a m f o r t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e in v e s ti g a t in g t e a m .

Th o s e a r e t h e

s u b m is s io n s s a v e i f t h e r e is a n y t h in g e ls e t h a t w e c a n b e o f a s s is t a n c e

Page 9 of 17

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
with.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t – t h a t i s f in e . I a m q u i te a li v e t o t h e f a c t t h a t
M r W a k e fo r d l a u n c h e d h is a p p l ic a ti o n m a n y m o n th s a g o a n d th a t th e r e
h a s b e e n s o m e d e la y in d e a li n g w i t h i t .

But I also do know that at a

c e r t a i n ti m e w h e n I t h o u g h t i t c o u ld b e d e a l t w i t h I h e a r d th a t h e w a s
in t e n d in g to f il e s o m e f u r t h e r a ff id a v i ts s o w e h a d t o g iv e h i m th a t
o p p o r t u n i ty.

B u t t h e b o t t o m l i n e i s t h a t w e w a n t t o t r y a n d a s fa r a s

p o s s i b le b e f a i r to e v e r y b o d y. S o – s o i t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n f a ir t o
e v e r y b o d y to p r o c e e d t o d a y i n t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h ic h p r e v a il . S o –
10

s o – s o t h a t is fi n e .

S o I – I w il l p o s t p o n e t h e m a t t e r a t t h is s ta g e

w i t h o u t fi x i n g a d a t e b u t w i t h a c l e a r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t e v e r y t h i n g t h a t
n e e d s t o b e d o n e s h o u l d b e d o n e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e c a n f ix a d a te
as soon as possible.

W h a t s t il l r e m a i n s in r e g a r d t o t h e L e a v e t o

C r o s s - e x a m i n e t h a t h a s b e e n g r a n te d is th e q u e s ti o n o f h o w m u c h ti m e
w i ll b e [ in t e r v e n e s ]
ADV REG WILLIS: Indeed so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s – s o [i n te r v e n e s ]
A D V R E G W I L L I S : I w a s g o i n g to a s k a f te r t h a t s h o r tly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n d u e c o u r s e t h a t w i ll h a v e to b e d e t e r m i n e d . I
20

a m q u it e h a p p y – I a m q u i te h a p p y i f t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d y o u r s i d e a n d I
d o n o t m i n d e v e r y b o d y i f t h e y h a v e g o t s o m e s u b m is s io n s t o m a k e w i t h
r e g a r d to h o w m u c h ti m e s h o u l d b e s e t a s id e t o m a k e s u b m is s i o n s a n d
o b v i o u s l y a t s o m e s t a g e I w i ll d e c i d e .

As of today I intended that I

w o u ld d e te r m i n e th a t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n if t h e
c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n w a s g o in g t o p r o c e e d . B u t t h e r e is r o o m f o r v a r io u s

Page 10 of 17

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
s u b m is s io n s to b e m a d e – m a y b e w r i t t e n s u b m is s i o n s a h e a d o f th e
a c t u a l c o m m e n c e m e n t o f th e h e a r i n g . S o – s o m a y b e I c a n l e a v e t h a t
p a r t t o b e a g r e e d u p o n a m o n g a ll th e l e g a l te a m s i n t e r m s o f w h o m ig h t
want

to

submit

–

d e l iv e r

w r i t te n

s u b m is s io n s

–

s u b m is s io n s o n t h a t b y w h e n a n d t a k e fr o m t h e r e .

short

w r i t te n

But should no

s u b m is s io n s o r n o t ic e s b e m a d e a h e a d o f th e fir s t d a y o f t h e c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n I w o u l d t h e n m a k e th e d e c is io n a t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f
the hearing.

B u t i t m i g h t b e p r e f e r a b l e i f i t is d o n e e a r li e r th a n th a t

b e c a u s e t h e n e v e r y o n e h a s a n i d e a o f h o w m u c h ti m e i s a l l o c a t e d a n d
10

t h e r e f o r e w h a t a r e th e i m p o r t a n t i s s u e s t o f o c u s o n w i th i n t h e ti m e
a l lo c a t e d .

B u t I t h i n k I c a n l e a v e t h a t t o th e v a r i o u s l e g a l t e a m s t o

a g r e e u p o n a n d t h e n t h a t c a n b e b r o u g h t t o my a t te n ti o n i n d u e c o u r s e .
A D V R E G W I L L I S : T h a t is a – t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E G W I L L I S : T h a t is a s a li e n t s u g g e s ti o n w e w il l ta k e a d v a n t a g e
o f i t a n d h o p e f u ll y a g r e e t h a t a n d h a v e t h a t – w e ll t h e s u b m is s io n s
r e fe r r e d t o y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E G W I L L I S : I f w e c a n n o t a g r e e o n i t a n d y o u c a n d e c id e a h e a d
20

of time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV REG WILLIS:

I t w o u ld b e v e r y h e l p fu l i f o n e [ in d i s ti n c t ] k n o w s

a h e a d o f ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E G W I L L I S : W h a t t o e x p e c t.

Page 11 of 17

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R E G W I L L I S : M r C h a ir m a n o n e l a s t c o m m e n t p e r i n s tr u c ti o n s o f
o u r c l ie n t i s t o t h a n k y o u fo r t h e a la c r i ty w i t h w h ic h y o u d e a l t w it h h i s
a p p lic a ti o n o n c e i t w a s p la c e d b e f o r e y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V R E G W I L L I S : T h a n k y o u M r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V R E G W I L L I S : C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w i f c o u n s e l f o r M r A g r i z z i a n d M r Vo r s t e r
10

who has – wishes to say anything?
A D V D E O N P O O L : I f it p l e a s e s t h e h o n o u r a b le C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e a r e
ju s t c e r t a i n m a t te r s th a t I j u s t h a v e b e e n i n s tr u c t e d t o j u s t r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D E O N P O O L : A t y o u r d is c r e t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV DEON POOL:

I h a v e t a k e n c o g n is a n c e o f A d v o c a te W i ll is ’

c o m m e n t s r e g a r d i n g t h e a ff i d a v i t t h a t w a s s u b m i t te d a n d in o r d e r to
c o m p ly

with

the

s u b s ta n ti v e

a p p l ic a ti o n

r e q u ir e m e n t

before

t h is

c o m m i s s io n . I w il l p a s s t h o s e c o m m e n ts o n t o M r W i t z a n d t h e y c a n b e
20

d e a lt w i t h b y h i m a c c o r d in g l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D E O N P O O L : J u s t a s f a r a s M r A g r iz z i is c o n c e r n e d a n d I h a v e
a p p r e c ia t io n f o r th e fa c t t h a t M r Wa k e f ie l d – Mr W a k e f o r d i s t o a c e r ta in
e x t e n t h a s p la c e d b e fo r e y o u r h o n o u r a b l e s e l f th e f a c t t h a t h e i s
s e v e r e l y p r e j u d ic e d . I d o b e l ie v e t h a t th a t o u g h t t o b e b a l a n c e d b y th e

Page 12 of 17

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
f a c t t h a t M r A g r i z z i h a s n o t s o u g h t a n i n d u l g e n c e o f t h is k i n d b e f o r e
t h is c o m m i s s io n a t a n y p o i n t in ti m e s i n c e h e h a s b e e n p a r t o f t h e s e
p r o c e e d i n g s . H e h a d b e e n p r e s e n t a t e v e r y s i n g l e i n s ta n c e t h a t h e h a s
b e e n r e q u ir e d t o d o s o .

T h e n a t u r e o f t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s is th a t

p r e j u d ic e w il l b e s u ff e r e d b y i m p l ic a t i o n . I t is – t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s a r e
la y i n g a s c a l p e l in t o t h e b a r e e s s e n ti a ls t h a t u n d e r m in e o u r d e m o c r a c y
if t h a t w a s n o t tr u e t h e P r e s id e n t w o u l d n o t h a v e o r d e r e d i t a n d Yo u r
H o n o u r a b le S e l f w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n p r e s i d in g i n t h is m a t t e r f o r t h e
ti m e th a t y o u h a v e b e e n .
10

M y b o t to m li n e is t h a t t h e r u le s o f n a t u r a l

ju s t ic e i n r e s p e c t o f p r o v i d i n g M r A g r iz z i a n d e v e r y p a r ty h e r e a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e a l w it h th e s e m a t t e r s p r o p e r ly a n d a p p r o p r ia t e l y s o
t h a t e v e r y t h in g c a n b e l a i d b a r e a n d t h e r e is a c o m p l e t e u n d e r s ta n d i n g
o f t h e n a tu r e o f w h a t e v e r w e n t o n i s i m p o r t a n t . A s fa r a s t h e ti m e s j u s t
f o r t h e i n tr a – o r f o r t h e in f o r m a t io n o f – o f th e v a r i o u s p a r ti e s I h a v e
b e e n a d v i s e d t h a t t i m e s h a v e b e e n s u g g e s t e d a n d th e y a r e s i m i la r ly
c o n ta in e d . P e r i o d s o f e it h e r t h e 1 8 t h – th e w e e k o f t h e 1 8 t h t o t h e 2 1 s t
N o v e m b e r o r th e 2 n d t o th e 6 t h D e c e m b e r. T h o s e m i g h t b e d a t e s th a t
c a n b e k e p t in m in d . M y f u r th e r i n s tr u c t io n is t h a t d e p e n d in g o f c o u r s e
o n Yo u r H o n o u r a b le – Th e H o n o u r a b l e c o m m i s s io n e r s d i s c r e ti o n a n

20

d ir e c t io n th a t M r A g r iz z i ’s te a m w o u l d n o t a t l e a s t t h r e e d a y s in o r d e r t o
c r o s s - e x a m in e M r Wa k e f o r d a n d a s f o r t h e r e m a in d e r I b e li e v e t h a t t h a t
h a s b e e n d e a l t w it h b y e it h e r M r W il lis o r t h e o t h e r m e m b e r s o f t h i s
c o m m i s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V D E O N P O O L : Th a n k y o u Si r

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09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t j u s t – o r th o s e a d v is i n g M r A g r iz z i m u s t j u s t
r e m e m b e r t o h a v e a lo o k a t th e r u le s a n d s e e w h e th e r t h e r e a r e a n y
p r o c e d u r a l s t e p s th a t m u s t b e t a k e n .
A D V D E O N P O O L : I w i ll a d v i s e t h e m a c c o r d i n g l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e n c a r e o f fir s t y e s . Ye s .
A D V D E O N P O O L : Th a n k y o u Sir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t j u s t s a y f o r w h a t i t is w o r t h a s d i ffe r e n t s i d e s
c o n te m p l a t e m a k i n g s u b m is s i o n s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e ti m e t h a t t h e y c a n
b e a l lo w e d t h a t I s h o u l d c o n s i d e r a l lo w in g f o r c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n . T h e y
10

s h o u l d ta k e i n to a c c o u n t t h a t I a m i n c li n e d n o t t o a l l o w t o o m u c h t i m e
b u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e I d o n o t w a n t t o b e u n fa ir a n d t h e r e fo r e t w o
p a r t i e s a n d a ll o w t o o l it t le t i m e .
A D V D E O N P O O L : H o n o u r a b l e C h a ir m a n I th i n k w e w i ll [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I – j a y o u w i ll b e a r t h a t i n m i n d .
A D V D E O N P O O L : Ye s w e – I th i n k w e a l l a g r e e t h a t w e s e r v e a t y o u r
d is c r e ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D E O N P O O L : A n d a t y o u r p l e a s u r e in th is i n s t a n c e a n d w e t a k e
y o u r d ir e c ti o n a c c o r d i n g ly.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I th in k t h e f ir s t ti m e w h e n I d e t e r m in e d

a l lo c a t e d ti m e f o r c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n w a s w i t h r e g a r d to I t h i n k Ms – t h e
c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o f M r J o n a s .

I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r a ls o M s

M e n to o r. I t h i n k a t t h a t t i m e I m a y h a v e g r a n t e d a n h o u r o r t w o o r
t h e r e a b o u t . Ye s t e r d a y n o t – w e ll n o t y e s te r d a y – j a I t h i n k i n t h e p a s t i t
w a s a b o u t a n h o u r o r tw o b u t o b v i o u s ly i t d e p e n d s o n t h e i s s u e s a n d

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09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
h o w f a s t t h e y a r e . B u t I j u s t w a n t e v e r y b o d y to t a k e t h a t i n to a c c o u n t .
ADV DEON POOL:

I h a v e – I t a k e t h a t in t o c o n s i d e r a t i o n t h a n k y o u

S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Mr P r e t o r iu s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :
points.
parties.

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Just three

F ir s tl y t h e l e g a l t e a m a p p r e c i a te s t h e c o o p e r a t io n o f t h e
It is o b v i o u s ly b e s t f o r t h e i n v e s t i g a t iv e w o r k o f t h e

c o m m i s s io n t h a t e v id e n c e a n d c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n t a k e s p l a c e o n a s
t h o r o u g h a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n t o t h e u n d e r l y in g f a c ts a s p o s s ib le .
10

The

s e c o n d p o in t is th a t t h e – t o p l a c e t h e h is t o r y o f th is m a tt e r i n i ts
p r o p e r c o n t e x t i t w a s c o n c l u d e d b y t h e fi li n g o f a r e p l y o n b e h a l f o f M r
Wa k e f o r d o f s o m e 2 9 0 p a g e s o n t h e 1 s t O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n o th e r w o r d s v e r y r e c e n t ly. S o
in a s s e s s i n g th e d e l a y t h a t m u s t b e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t. A n d t h i r d ly i t is
i m p o r t a n t t o p u t o n e m a t t e r s tr a i g h t a n d o n t h e r e c o r d C h a ir.

It has

b e e n s a i d t o d a y a n d i n p u b li c a n d i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e m a n y t i m e s th a t
M r A g r iz z i i m p l ic a te d w i t n e s s e s w i t h o u t c o m p li a n c e w i th t h e r u le s . T h a t
is n o t c o r r e c t . T h e r e w a s a – i f – i f r e g a r d is h a d t o t h e r e c o r d w h ic h is
20

a v a i la b le f o r a l l t o r e a d t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r A g r i z z i w a s g iv e n a f t e r a
c o m p r e h e n s iv e a n d p r o p e r a p p li c a t io n i n t e r m s o f t h e r u le s t h a t h e d o
s o w i t h o u t t h e is s u e o f 3 . 3 N o t ic e s i n p a r t ic u l a r c ir c u m s t a n c e s th a t
w e r e p l a c e d i n e v i d e n c e b e f o r e y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

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09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i n o th e r w o r d s y o u j u s t r e m i n d e v e r y b o d y t h a t t o

t h e e x t e n t t h a t th e r e m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a n y R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e s t h a t
w e r e i s s u e d i t w a s u n d e r c i r c u ms t a n c e s t h a t t h e le g a l te a m s u b m it t e d
ju s t i fi e d d o i n g t h a t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w a s p la c e d b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s i o n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . A n d y o u p e r m i t t e d i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t e r m s o f th e r u l e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ,
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

W e – I a m g o i n g to p o s t p o n e th e

c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o f M r A g r iz z i a n d Mr Vo r s te r b y c o u n s e l f o r Mr
Wa k e f o r d . I a m n o t g o in g to fi x a n y d a t e b e c a u s e t h a t m u s t s t il l b e
worked out.

B u t a tt e m p ts w ill b e m a d e t o fi x a d a t e a s s o o n a s

p o s s i b le a n d I h a v e n o d o u b t th a t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t m u s t b e c a r r ie d
o u t i n o r d e r t o f a c il i ta t e th a t c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n is g o in g to b e d o n e a s
20

soon as possible.

S o t h e c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o f M r A g r iz z i a n d Mr

Vo r s t e r i s p o s tp o n e d s in e d i e a n d a n o t h e r d a t e w il l b e d e te r mi n e d in
due course.

T h a t is g o in g to – t h a t p la y p u t s u s a t t h e e n d o f t h e

p r o c e e d i n g s fo r – o f t o d a y.

W e – Mr P r e to r i u s a r e n o t h a v i n g a n y

w i t n e s s e s to m o r r o w a n d Fr i d a y. Is t h a t – i s t h a t c o n fir m e d ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H

P R E TO R I U S S C :

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Fr i d a y is s ti ll r e l a ti v e ly

09 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 180
u n c e r t a in .

I s a y r e l a tiv e ly u n c e r t a in t h e w i t n e s s f o r th a t d a y w il l

p r o b a b ly n o t a p p e a r b u t th e r e i s a c h a n c e t h a t it c a n s t il l b e a r r a n g e d
a n d n o t if ic a ti o n c a n b e g i v e n t o t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s o m e b o d y m u s t j u s t l e t m e k n o w b u t c e r ta i n ly n o t
t o m o r r o w t h e r e is n o w i t n e s s t o m o r r o w ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w i t h r e g a r d t o t h a t t h e r e w i ll b e n o h e a r i n g o n

M o n d a y a n d Tu e s d a y n e x t w e e k a s w e ll .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e w i ll b e a h e a r i n g o n W e d n e s d a y i n v o l v i n g a

w i t n e s s fr o m t h e F r e e S t a t e G o v e r n m e n t i n r e l a t i o n t o E s ti n a . S o – y e s
– s o t h e p u b l ic w i ll b e a d v is e d a b o u t Fr i d a y e it h e r s o m e ti m e to d a y o r
t o m o r r o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . W e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS SINE DIE

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