C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

09 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 5 9

20

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE 9 SEPTEMBER 2019
CHAIRPERSON:

G o o d m o r n i n g Ms N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y,

good morning Doctor Ngubane.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
C h a ir m a n .

Ye s g o o d m o r n i n g , g o o d m o r n i n g M r

M r C h a i r m a n Mr N g u b a n e i s – D o c to r N g u b a n e r a th e r is

le g a l ly r e p r e s e n te d . I f o r g o t t o i n tr o d u c e h i m s o … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Could you please place yourself on

record?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . O k a y.
A D V L E S L I E M K H A B E L A : G o o d m o r n i n g M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV LESLIE MKHABELA:

Th e n a m e i s L e s l i e M k h a b e l a I a m t h e

a tt o r n e y r e p r e s e n ti n g D o c t o r N g u b a n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
ADV LESLIE MKHABELA:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M r C h a ir m a n t h e e v i d e n c e o f
t h is w i t n e s s is r e l e v a n t t o t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e 1 . 1 a n d 1 .6 .
20

W i th y o u r

le a v e C h a ir – C h a ir w o u ld – h a s h e a r d e v i d e n c e d e a l i n g w i t h – fr o m M r
T h e k i s o b r ie f ly, d e a li n g w i t h th e p u r g i n g w h ic h w e a r e g o in g t o c a n v a s s
w i t h t h i s w i t n e s s o f s ta ff b u t w e w i ll fo c u s o n ju s t o n e p e r s o n t h a t th is
p e r s o n w a s q u i t e – t h a t th e p e r s o n w a s – t h a t t h i s w i tn e s s k n e w q u i t e
w e ll . A n d t h e n w e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i th t h e TN A b r e a k f a s t w i t h h i m
a n d w e w il l d e a l w i th t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d m a t te r s

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
that relate to him.

Thank you.

I f y o u a r e s a tis f ie d m a y t h e w i tn e s s

then be sworn in?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O f b e f o r e – b e f o r e t h a t C h a ir ju s t b e f o r e

y o u t h a t w il l b e E x h i b i t 2 0 t o 2 4 a n d t h is w i t n e s s ’ – D o c t o r N g u b a n e ’s
s t a te m e n ts a p p e a r s u n d e r d iv i d e r n u m b e r 2 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e h a v e a d m i t te d th is ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s w e h a v e a d m i t t e d i t y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But just to open.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e r e – it is t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d C h a ir ju s t o n e a n o t h e r a d d it i o n y o u –
a s fr o m Fr i d a y t h e r e w a s a n a d d i t io n t o t h a t b u n d l e j u s t o n h i s
s t a te m e n t .

C h a i r w i ll s e e i t is m a r k e d E x h i b i t – i t is 2 2 .1 .

It is a

d iv i d e r w o u l d b e m a r k e d 2 2 . 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d i t s a y s M e d ia B u n d l e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t, t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M a y t h e w it n e s s b e s w o r n in ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e a d m i n is t e r th e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r o c o r d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B a ld w in S i p h o N g u b a n e .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e o a th ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
10

tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o h e l p m e G o d .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . D o c t o r N g u b a n e
is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u h a v e s u b m i t t e d a s t a t e m e n t t o t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d
t h a t s t a t e m e n t a p p e a r s i n a b u n d l e t h a t is in fr o n t o f y o u m a r k e d – w i th
a d iv i d e r m a r k e d 2 2 ? I h a d a s k e d th a t i t b e o p e n e d f o r y o u .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

20

Ye s .

C o u l d y o u ju s t i d e n ti f y t h a t

s t a te m e n t a n d i f y o u c o u ld g o t o p a g e 1 5 o f th a t s ta t e m e n t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: 1 5 ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 15.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t r e f e r s t o th e r e d n u m b e r s a t t h e to p .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r.

Page 4 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o , n o y o u m u s t o p e n i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t

D o c to r N g u b a n e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , n o , n o n o t – t h e c o p y t h a t w e m a d e .
Ye s u n d e r 2 2 i t w il l b e a fi l e – th e r e is a j a c k e t – t h a t i s a s le e v e –
w h a t d o y o u c a l l i t? A d iv i d e r – n u m b e r 2 .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And it contains you statement.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s . W h ic h p a r t o f t h e s t a t e m e n t ?
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay page 15 of that – 15.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A r e y o u t h e r e ? I s t h a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is n o t p a r t o f m y s ta t e m e n t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No – yes – I think you – okay you opened
t h e w r o n g o n e . S h e is g o in g to a s s is t y o u .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y. I h a v e g o t i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . I f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e t u r n t o
page 15, 15.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s , y e s .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . I s t h a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e t h a t
a p p e a r s th e r e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d d i d y o u s i g n th a t s t a t e m e n t o n t h e
2 7 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 a t B a l li t o ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d a r e t h e c o n t e n ts o f

t h is s t a t e m e n t tr u e a n d c o r r e c t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A r e t h e c o n t e n ts o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t tr u e

and correct?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s i t is c o r r e c t .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Th a n k y o u .

And you made this

s t a te m e n t to t h e c o m m i s s i o n v o lu n t a r i ly ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

C o u l d y o u ju s t fo r th e

record Doctor Ngubane I know you have done so in Annexure BSN 001
t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 6 , th e v e r y n e x t p a g e a f t e r p a g e 1 5 th e o n e t h a t
y o u h a v e – y e s . A n d i s t h a t y o u r C V o r b r i e fl y y o u r q u a li f ic a t i o n s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s c o u l d y o u j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d p l a c e

that on record?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t y o u r a c a d e m ic q u a li fi c a t i o n s p l e a s e ?
B u t th a t a ls o i n c lu d e s th e B S N 0 0 1 a t p a g e 1 6 a l s o in c l u d e s y o u r …
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: 6 3 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u r c a r e e r s – y e s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

If y o u c o u l d ju s t p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d ,

thank you.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S h o u l d I r e a d t h is o u t ?

Page 6 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y.
“ B a ld w in S i p h o [ B e n ] D o c t o r N g u b a n e s t a r t e d h i s
c a r e e r a s a l e a d e r i n th e I F P w h e r e a f t e r I c r o s s o v e r
t o th e A N C – w h e r e a ft e r I c r o s s e d o v e r t o t h e A N C .
H e h a s s e r v e d i n t h e fo ll o w i n g p o s it i o n s .
1 9 9 4 h e w a s a p p o i n t e d M in is t e r o f Ar t s , C u l t u r e ,
Science

and

Te c h n o l o g y

in

th e

Government

of

N a t io n a l U n i ty.
I n 1 9 9 7 h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a Pr e m i e r o f K w a Z u l u

10

Natal.
I n 1 9 9 9 h e w a s r e a p p o i n te d M i n is te r o f Ar t s , C u l t u r e ,
S c i e n c e a n d t e c h n o l o g y.
In 2004 he was appointed as an Amb assador to
Japan.”
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O h m a y I ju s t in t e r r u p t ?

C h a ir th e – I

h a v e ju s t b e e n a d v i s e d th a t y o u a r e n o t r e a l ly a u d i b le . D o c t o r N g u b a n e
c o u l d y o u ju s t p u l l t h e m ic r o p h o n e c l o s e r t o y o u ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y.
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

S h o u ld h e s t a r t fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g i f h e w a s n o t

a u d ib le ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s m a y b e y o u c o u l d j u s t te ll – y e s .

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CHAIRPERSON: I think.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e C h a i r fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a m a y b e i f y o u c o u ld s t a r t f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B u t t h is is n o t t h e C V I s u p p l i e d .

S o m e o n e h a s w r i t t e n t h is C V.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W h e r e is t h e C V t h a t h e s u p p l i e d – in h is

s t a te m e n t d o e s s a y C V ’s h e r e .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:
10

Yo u k n o w t h e y p u t ti n g t h e i r o w n

a s s u m p t io n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

M a y b e i t is y o u r a t to r n e y – b e c a u s e t h e

c o m m i s s io n g o t i t fr o m [i n d i s t i n c t ] s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h e a t t o r n e y is s h a k in g h is h e a d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e is s h a k in g h is h e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s h is C V h e r e b e c a u s e h is s t a te m e n t d o e s s a y m y C V
is s u p p li e d .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I j u s t w a n t t o c h e c k w h e th e r M r M k h a b e l a
d o e s h a v e a c o p y o f h i s C V.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : W e l l I w o u ld p r e f e r t h a t w e g o t o m y
20

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t is n o t …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M y o r i g i n a l C V.
CHAIRPERSON:

H a v e y o u g o t i t t h e r e – h a v e y o u g o t it w i th y o u

outside of the bundle maybe?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

N o th is i s t h e o n e .

Page 8 of 179

Doctor Ngubane the

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
o n e th a t y o u s a y is n o t y o u r s is th a t w h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 6 ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

No, no, no.

T h is i s n o t w h a t I

s u p p li e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is t h e o n e – h e w a s r e a d i n g f r o m t h e o n e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Fr o m t h is o n e a n d h e s a y s th is is n o t th e
one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I a m s o r r y I t h i n k h e w a s r e a d in g fr o m – w e r e
you not reading from 63?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
10

N o I c a n n o t fi n d t h e o n e I s u p p li e d

u n f o r t u n a t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a le t u s tr y a n d s e e i f h e c a n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja you see he was reading from page 63.

Yo u s a y

t h e r e i s s o m e th in g h e r e a t p a g 6 3 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h n o , n o , n o t h a t is – n o th a t is n o t w h a t
y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e r e a d in g fr o m .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h is i s t h e m e d i a b u n d le . I s a i d p a g e 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll h i s s ta t e m e n t d o e s s a y – i t s a y s :
20

“ M y fu ll c u r r ic u l u m v i t a e is a n n e x e d h e r e t o a s a n n e x u r e B S N 0 0 1 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is s u p p o s e d t o b e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t n o t a t t a c h e d t o t h e s t a t e m e n t b e c a u s e it s h o u ld

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
be?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Where – what page?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is a t p a g e 1 6 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Have a look at page 16 Doctor Ngubane and see

w h e t h e r t h a t is w h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g f o r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h is i s t h e o n e – y e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is t h e o n e y o u w e r e lo o k in g fo r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k r e a d fr o m t h a t o n e r a t h e r th e n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll …
“ D a t e o f b ir th 1 9 4 1 O c t o b e r 2 2 .
E d u c a ti o n a n d Pr o f e s s io n a l Q u a l i fi c a t io n s :

M a tr ic o b t a in e d a t S t

Fr a n c i s C o l l e g e M a r ia n n h il l , Pi n e to w n K w a Z u l u N a t a l .
20

U n iv e r s i ty :

B a c h e l o r o f M e d ic i n e a n d B a c h e l o r o f S u r g e r y K w a Zu l u

Natal.
E m p r e x M e d w h i c h is M a s t e r o f F a m il y M e d ic i n e , U n iv e r s i ty o f N a ta l .
P o s t G r a d u a te D i p l o m a s :

D i p lo m a i n Tr o p ic a l m e d i c i n e a n d h y g ie n e ,

WITS.
D i p l o m a in P u b l ic H e a l th – W I T S .

Page 10 of 179

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E c o n o m ic P r i n c i p le s – U n iv e r s i ty o f L o n d o n .
P u b l ic S e r v ic e – M i n t e r s o f Ar ts , C u lt u r e , S c i e n c e a n d Te c h n o l o g y 1 9 9 4
to 1996.
P r e m i e r o f K w a Z u l u N a t a l 1 9 9 7 to 1 9 9 9 .
M i n is t e r o f A r ts , C u l t u r e , Sc ie n c e a n d Te c h n o l o g y 1 9 9 9 t o 2 0 0 4 .
Ambassador to Japan 2004 to 2008.
Aw a r d s : G r a n d C o r d o n o f t h e O r d e r o f t h e R is i n g S u n b e s t o w e d b y t h e
E m p e r o r o f J a p a n f o r m o r a to r i a a c h i e v e m e n ts in b u i ld in g u p s c ie n c e
a n d te c h n o l o g y c o r p o r a t io n b e t w e e n S o u th A fr i c a a n d J a p a n .
10

Honorary Degrees:
LLD – University of Natal
P h d – U n iv e r s i ty o f Z u lu l a n d .
Phd – Medunsa.
P h d – U n iv e r s i ty o f F r e e S t a r t .
D o c to r o f H u m a n e L e t te r s .
I n t e r n a ti o n a l C h r i s ti a n U n i v e r is i ty To k y o J a p a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s e e m s t o o m i t t w o a s p e c ts w h ic h a r e r e le v a n t to –
a t l e a s t o n e o f t h e m w h i c h r e l e v a n t fo r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s . C h a i r p e r s o n

20

of the board of the SABC?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll I p r e s u m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t t h a t w a s a n i m p o r ta n t …
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I p r e s u m e a n y p r o f e s s i o n a l tr a i n i n g

w h e t h e r i t is la w o r m e d ic i n e q u a li fi e s y o u t o b e C h a ir m a n o f a b o a r d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

Is it a ls o c o r r e c t th a t t h e

m a t t e r s t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h h e r e in y o u r s t a t e m e n t a r e m a t t e r s t h a t
r e l a t e t o th e p e r i o d w h e n y o u w e r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e S A B C b o a r d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o t h i s i s ju s t m y C V.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
Nbugane.

N o , n o I m e a n in y o u r s t a te m e n t D o c to r

In y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u d e a l w i t h m a t t e r s t h a t r e la t e t o y o u r

c h a ir m a n s h ip o f t h e S A B C b o a r d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s a b s o l u te ly. A b s o l u te ly.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . W h e n y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d
t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e S A B C b o a r d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a n u a r y 2 0 1 0 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u s e r v e d u n t il w h e n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M a r c h 2 0 1 3 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Who appointed you to the board?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: P a r li a m e n t t h r o u g h t h e Pr e s id e n t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d th e – w h o w a s t h e r e s p o n s ib l e
M i n is t e r f o r C o m m u n ic a ti o n s a t t h a t ti m e ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

20

I t w a s r e ti r e d G e n e r a l H o n o u r a b le

Siphiwe Nyanda.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And who was the Minister of Finance?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H o n o u r a b l e Pr a v in G o r d h a n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h e n d u r i n g y o u r ti m e t h e n t o t h e

b o a r d o f – a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d o f t h e S A B C y o u d e a l w i th
t h a t a n d y o u s a y t h e f ir s t t h i n g t h a t y o u d e a l w it h y o u d e a l w it h t h e

Page 12 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
fi n a n c i a l p o s i t io n o f t h e S A B C a t th e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e a p p o in t e d a s
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

Ye s p r o b a b l y o n e c a n e x p a n d a b i t

on that.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C o u l d y o u p l e a s e j u s t t e ll t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e n a s t o w h a t w a s th e s i tu a ti o n w h e n y o u w e r e
appointed?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s . B u t I n e e d t o s ta r t a l it t le b a c k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : T h e S A B C s e iz e d t o b e p r o fi t a b l e o r
t o m a k e a p r o fi t i n 2 0 0 6 .

Fr o m 2 0 0 7 , 2 0 0 8 , 2 0 0 9 th e y w e r e m a k i n g

h u g e lo s s e s . F o r i n s t a n c e i n t h e 2 0 0 8 /2 0 0 9 a n n u a l r e p o r t a n d a u d i te d
s t a te m e n ts t h e y m a d e a l o s s o f m o r e t h a n R 8 0 0 m il li o n . T h e y c o u l d n o t
fl ig h t n e w c o n t e n t f o r te l e v i s i o n .

Th e y c o u l d n o t p a y t h e i n d e p e n d e n t

p r o d u c e r s f o r t e l e v is io n c o n te n t . In f a c t t h e i n d e p e n d e n t p r o d u c e r s l o s t
a b o u t 1 7 0 0 0 j o b s d u r in g t h a t ti m e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Sorry Doctor Ngubane the one thing I

f o r g o t t o m e n ti o n to y o u w a s t h a t p l e a s e l o o k a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n
y o u a n s w e r.
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y a n d – y e s – s o r r y.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y. I w i ll d o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is a l r i g h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I w il l d o th a t i n d e e d .

Page 13 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t t h e o n ly o n e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lo t l ik e l o o k i n g a t t h e e v id e n c e l e a d e r s j a .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o t h a t is fi n e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : J a . T h e s i tu a ti o n b e c a m e s o c r i t ic a l
t h a t th e i n t e r i m b o a r d c h a ir e d b y M s Ir e n e C h a r n l e y h a d to a s k f o r a
g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e o f a b o u t R 1 . 6 4 b ill i o n i n o r d e r t o m e e t t h e
s o l v e n c y r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e S A B C .
10

Th is w a s g r a n te d a n d w e th e n –

w h e n w e c a m e in i n 2 0 1 0 w e t h e n h a d th is m o n e y R 1 b il li o n – R 1 b il li o n
t e r m l o a d fr o m N e d b a n k t o s e t tl e t h e h u g e d e b ts t h a t w e r e o u ts ta n d i n g .
S o w e c a m e i n i n t o a n o r g a n is a t i o n t h a t w a s te c h n ic a ll y i n s o l v e n t . In
o u r f ir s t y e a r 2 0 0 9 / 2 0 1 0 w e h a d r e d u c e d t h e d e f ic it o f m o r e t h a n 8 0 0 t o
R 4 6 5 m i ll io n . W e h a d i m p r o v e d th e c o n t e n t i n o u r t e l e v is io n b y p a y in g
t h e i n d e p e n d e n t p r o d u c e r s o f c o n t e n t m a t e r i a l b y m a k in g t h e p r o g r a m s
m o r e a t tr a c t iv e , r a is i n g o u r a u d i e n c e r a t in g s s o w e c o u l d a g a i n g o b a c k
t o c h a r g e th e r e l e v a n t a n d p r o p e r ly p r ic e d a m o u n ts f o r te le v i s i o n
a d v e r t is e m e n ts . A b r o a d c a s t e r m a k e s m o n e y t h r o u g h a d v e r tis e m e n ts .
H o w e v e r w h e n t h e a u d i e n c e r a t in g s a r e l o w n o - o n e w a n ts t o p a y m o n e y

20

w h e n t h e y c a n n o t r e a c h a s u ff ic ie n t n u m b e r o f v i e w e r s . S o i t w a s v e r y
i m p o r t a n t to g o b a c k t o p r o d u c e c o n t e n t t h a t w a s a p p e a l in g t o th e
p u b lic a n d t h e r e f o r e w o u l d a t tr a c t i n v e s t m e n t r e v e n u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o h o w d i d y o u t h e n d o t h a t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e d i d t h a t b y r e s t r ic t in g c o n t e n t t o
o n ly th o s e m o v i e s o r n e w s i te m t h a t w o u l d a t tr a c t a n d r e ta in v ie w e r s .

Page 14 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
S o w e s t a r te d t o c o r r e c t t h e fi n a n c i a l s i tu a ti o n .

W e p r o g r e s s i v e ly d i d

s o to a p o i n t w h e r e i n 2 0 1 3 w e p a i d R 8 0 0 m il li o n b a c k t o N e d b a n k . I n
o th e r w o r d s s a v i n g a b o u t R 4 5 m il li o n i n i n t e r e s t w h ic h w a s b e in g
c h a r g e d a t th e t i m e . A n d t h is w a s i n li n e w i th th e r e q u i r e m e n ts o f t h e
c o n d i ti o n s s e t u p in t h e g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e .

So we found a

d y s f u n c ti o n a l o r g a n is a ti o n . T h e c a u s e o f t h e lo s s o f p r o fi t a b il i ty w a s
w i d e s p r e a d m a lp r a c t ic e a t t h e m a n a g e m e n t l e v e l .

F o r i n s ta n c e s a le s

w o u ld b e m a d e f o r a d v e r t is i n g t i m e b u t t h e p e o p l e w h o m a n a g e d p u t ti n g
t h a t i n t o c o n t e n t a n d t e l e v is io n v i e w in g d i d n o t f o ll o w th e s c h e d u l e s .
10

S o t h e a d v e r tis e r s r e fu s e d t o p a y. S e c o n d ly t h e r e w a s w i d e s p r e a d
c o r r u p ti o n in t h e b u y i n g a n d p r o c u r e m e n t o f in t e r n a t i o n a l f il m m a t e r ia l .
P e o p l e w o u l d g o o u t to H o l ly w o o d , b u y a b u lk o f m a t e r i a l w h i c h w a s
p a r t o f t h e b u lk a s s o c i a te d w i t h c r i m e c o n t e n t .

Let me just give an

example. If we bought the…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e B o l d a n d t h e B e a u t i fu l .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a th e B o l d a n d B e a u ti f u l t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e y w o u l d s a y h e r e a r e o t h e r fi l m s
y o u m u s t b u y th e m a s a b u n d l e . Yo u g e t t h e g o o d o n e b u t y o u g e t a
20

w h o le l o t o f u s e l e s s o n e s . Th e r e w a s a n e x p r e s s i o n y o u b u y t h e d o g
w i t h i ts t ic k s – w it h h i s f l e a s .
e x p r e s s io n .

That was – became a popular

N o w t h e p r o b l e m t h e s e f le a s y o u c o u l d n o t fl i g h t t h e m

b e c a u s e n o - o n e w a n t t o s e e th e m . F o r i n s t a n c e i f o n e t o o k o l d c o w b o y
fi l m s li k e R o y R o d g e r s o r s o m e t h in g n o - o n e w o u ld b e i n te r e s t e d i n
v ie w in g t h a t .

S o t h e s e p r o d u c ts o r fi l m s w o u l d s t a y a t S A B C u n u s e d

Page 15 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
u n t il t h e li c e n c e e x p ir e d . H o w e v e r m o n e y h a d b e e n p a id o f th e m . N o
in c o m e f r o m a d v e r tis e m e n ts w h i c h a r e a s s o c i a t e d w i th t h e fi l m m a t e r i a l
w o u ld b e c o m in g i n s o i t w a s w r i t t e n o ff a s i m p a ir m e n t.

There were

o th e r w a y s in w h i c h m a n a g e m e n t o v e r - r o d e t h e c r e d i t c o n tr o ls in t h e
s a l e s d iv i s i o n . U l ti m a t e l y a l m o s t a l l o f t h e m w e r e e x p e l l e d o r c h a r g e d .
S o I a m tr y i n g t o s h o w y o u t h a t t h e S A B C w e c a m e t o w a s u n d e r
s e r io u s f i n a n c ia l s tr e s s b u t w e a ls o h a d t h e c o n d it i o n s o f t h e
g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n te e w h ic h w e r e v e r y o n e r o u s . W e h a d t o p r o d u c e a
t u r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y a n d p l a n . W e h a d to r e d u c e h e a d c o u n t b y a l m o s t
10

1 0 0 0 p e o p le .

W e h a d t o p u t i n w h a t s h o u ld I s a y – m e a s u r e s th a t

r e d u c e d c o s ts r ig h t a c r o s s t h e b o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o s t c u tt i n g m e a s u r e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h o s e a r e th e c o n d i ti o n s y o u g o t fr o m
the Minister of Finance?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e m o n e y ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t h e c o n d i t i o n s t h a t y o u a r e m e n t io n in g .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

J a t h a t w a s t o r e d u c e c o s ts a c r o s s

the board.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :
b e n e fi ts

that

were

g o in g

to

R e d u c e h e a d c o u n t.
senior

management

Reduce the
and

middle

m a n a g e m e n t . A n d th e s e c o s ts u s a b o u t R 2 0 0 m i lli o n ju s t t h e is s u e o f

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
r e te n ti o n , b o n u s e s , th e is s u e o f p o s t- r e ti r e m e n t b e n e fi ts w e r e h u g e ly
e x p e n s iv e b u t th e y a p p l i e d to th e s e n i o r a n d m id d le m a n a g e m e n t .
W h e n w e s a i d t o th e M in is t e r th a t i t w a s d i ff ic u l t t o r e tr e n c h p e o p l e h e
pointed out that the cost element is in senior and middle management.
S o d e a l w i th th o s e .

F o r g e t a b o u t u n io n i s e d la b o u r b e c a u s e th e y a r e

n o t a s e x p e n s iv e a n d t h a t is w h e n th e p o l ic y o f n o t r e n e w i n g c o n tr a c ts
that

were

ending.

The

s e n io r

management

and

some

m i d d le

m a n a g e m e n t h a d f iv e y e a r c o n t r a c t s . S o t h e d e c i s i o n b y th e b o a r d w a s
w e w il l n o t r e n e w c o n tr a c ts t h a t a r e c o m i n g to a n e n d . S o t h i s w a y w e
10

m a n a g e d to r e - s h a p e th e fi n a n c e s o f t h e S A B C . W h e n I l e f t i n 2 0 1 3 i t
was on an even keel and there was money on top of whatever we had
p a i d t o th e te r m l o a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : Th e d is c la i m e r s th a t h a d b e e n th e r e
in 2 0 0 9 w e h a d d e a lt w i th t h e m . T h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l h a d fo u n d l a c k o f
g o v e r n a n c e a t S A B C . W e d e a l t w i t h t h i s i n t h e r e p o r t to S C O PA w h e r e
S C O PA w a n t e d to k n o w – S C O PA t h e S t a n d in g C o m m i t t e e O n P u b li c
A c c o u n ts – w a n t e d t o k n o w w h a t w e w e r e d o i n g t o i m p le m e n t a c ti o n to
c o r r e c t – c o r r e c tiv e a c ti o n in r e s p o n s e t o t h e f in d in g s o f t h e A u d i t o r

20

G e n e r a l.

W e p r e s e n t e d to S C O PA o u r p l a n s , th e y w e r e s a t is f ie d .

So

w e h a d s t a r t e d t o s h i f t t h e s i tu a ti o n t o a p r o fi t a b l e S A B C , t h e r e tu r n o f
a d v e r t is e r s .

Yo u k n o w a d v e r t is in g t i m e o n T V c o s t s a lo t b e c a u s e th a t

is th e b e s t fo r m o f a d v e r ti s i n g – o f a d v e r ti s i n g .

It reaches a huge

n u m b e r o f p e o p l e a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y. A ll c a t e g o r i e s .

F o r i n s ta n c e i f

y o u a d v e r t is e o n s a y f o r a n e x a m p l e M e tr o F M t h e l o w e s t c o s t fo r h a lf a

Page 17 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
m i n u t e is R 5 4 0 . 0 0 f o r h a lf a m i n u t e . B u t it c a n g o o n u p t o R 1 2 0 0 . 0 0
d e p e n d in g o n t h e q u a li ty o f y o u r a u d i e n c e r a ti n g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W h ic h m a k e y o u v e r y c o s t ly to t h e

a d v e r t is e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh sorry yes.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y l e t m e – i f y o u c o u l d ju s t fi n i s h t h a t
part?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y, n o , n o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A r e y o u f i n is h e d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I th in k I h a v e s a id …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u . C a n w e j u s t d e a l
w i t h t h e o n e a s p e c t t h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y m e n ti o n e d t h a t th e r e w a s a
p l a n t h a t t h e n t h e b o a r d d e c i d e d t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

In c u t ti n g c o s ts .

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o u ld y o u ju s t te ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n o t h e r
t h a n n o t r e n e w i n g c o n tr a c ts t h a t h a d c o m e to a n e n d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t o t h e r m e a s u r e s r e la t e d t o t h o s e c o s t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
c u t ti n g m e a s u r e s in s o f a r a s t h e e m p l o y m e n t o f th o s e p e r s o n s w e r e
concerned?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll w e w a n t e d t o c h a n g e fr o m

d e f in e d b e n e fi t s t o d e f in e d c o n tr i b u ti o n s b e c a u s e if a p e r s o n l e a v e s
S A B C r e tir e s a n d h e is o n d e f in e d b e n e f it s i t m e a n s h e w il l g e t t h a t
m o n e y t h r o u g h o u t h is li f e p o s t r e t ir e m e n t .

B u t i f i t is d e f in e d

c o n tr i b u t i o n t h e n i t g o e s a l o n g w i th a t i m e s p a n h e s p e n t a t S A B C . S o
w e w e r e tr y i n g t o c h a n g e t h o s e p r a c t ic e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

B u t w e w e r e a ls o m e r g i n g s o m e o f

t h e p o s i t io n s a n d c o n s o l i d a t in g th e m .

F o r i n s t a n c e t h e r e u s e d to b e

H u m a n R e s o u r c e s th e n t h e r e u s e d to b e a C h ie f P e o p l e ’s O ffi c e r. T h e
b o a r d l o o k e d a t t h i s , h a d a b it o f r e s e a r c h o n i t a n d d is c o v e r e d t h a t it
w a s a c t u a l ly t w o p e o p l e d o in g t h e s a m e jo b . S o t h a t w a s m e r g e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d t h e r e w e r e m a n a g e r s w h o w e r e
r e p o r t in g t o o t h e r m a n a g e r s a t t h e s a m e l e v e l in t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . W e
e l i m in a t e d th a t s u r p lu s e x p e n d i t u r e . A n d o f c o u r s e t h e r e w a s a u s te r i ty
in t e r m s o f tr a v e ll i n g .
20

W e d e c i d e d t o c lo s e t h e in t e r n a t io n a l n e w s

b u r e a u s th a t w e r e o p e n e d in L o n d o n , N e w Yo r k e t c e t e r a w h e r e w e p a i d
p e o p l e i n t e r m s o f fo r e i g n c u r r e n c y. Yo u k n o w E u r o s a n d D o ll a r s t h a t
w a s e li m i n a t e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e f o r c e d n e w s s e c ti o n f o r i n s t a n c e
t o c u t it s b u d g e t o f R 9 0 0 m il li o n t o R 6 0 0 a s p a r t o f th e a u s t e r i ty

Page 19 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
measures.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : T h e a l lo w a n c e s o n p e tr o l c a r d s w e r e
c h a n g e d b e c a u s e p e tr o l c a r d s w e r e a b s o l u te ly a b u s e d .

People would

g o t h e r e , c h a n g e t h e ir c a r e n g i n e s , c h a n g e t h e ir t y r e s , u s in g p e tr o l
c a r d s . W e e l i m i n a t e d t h a t. S o t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f m e a s u r e s t h a t
fi t t e d t h e a u s t e r i ty r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t w a s i n th e g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

I w o u ld l ik e to ju s t d e a l w i th t h e

m a t t e r t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e s e m e a s u r e s in s o fa r a s o n e o f t h e e m p lo y e e s
10

o f th e S A B C ’s c o n c e r n . I w o u l d l ik e to h e a r y o u r c o m m e n t s o n i t . I s e e
y o u m a k e r e fe r e n c e – th e r e is a d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u h a v e a t ta c h e d B S N
0 0 2 a n d i t h a s h is n a m e .

I t w a s p r e p a r e d – i t is a p r e s e n t a ti o n to

S C O PA a n d i t h a s th e n a m e o f M r Ti a a n O l iv i e r.

And the Chief

Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r. D o y o u – y o u k n e w Mr O liv ie r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

At the

time

when you

were

th e

C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s w h e n Mr R o b in N i c h o ls o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B e c a m e a c ti n g C E O Ti a a n O li v i e r

b e c a m e a c t in g Fi n a n c i a l …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F in a n c ia l O ffi c e r.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O ff ic e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H e w a s e x c e l l e n t . In f a c t h e w a s o n e

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
o f t h e m e m b e r s o f th e ta s k t e a m t h a t th e b o a r d a s k e d M r M o t s o e n e n g
t o s e t u p t o d e a l w i t h t h e fi n d i n g s o f t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l. Th e y w o r k e d
t h r o u g h D e c e m b e r in t o th e f o l lo w in g y e a r a n d p r o d u c e d a r e p o r t th a t
b e c a m e a c c e p t a b l e t o th e S C O PA .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

H e w a s a v e r y g o o d w o r k e r.

I le f t

the – at SABC so I do not know what happened afterwards.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

B u t w h a t I w o u l d li k e u s to t a lk

a b o u t. L o o k i n g a t th e p l a n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t c o n tr a c ts th a t h a v e c o m e
10

t o a n e n d d o n o t g e t r e n e w e d . In t h a t p la n th a t th e b o a r d h a d d i d y o u
e n v is a g e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e a p e r s o n w o u l d s ti ll h a v e 5 y e a r s t o g o i n
t h e c o n tr a c t b u t i t w o u l d b e t e r m i n a t e d ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o , n o . T h a t w a s n o t t h e p o li c y. It
w a s n o t th e d e c is io n . I t w a s c o n tr a c t s t h a t w e r e c o m i n g t o a c l o s e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

We would talk to the person who

o c c u p i e d th e p o s i t io n , a s s e s s t h e p e r f o r m a n c e in t h a t p o s i ti o n a n d
e x p l a i n t o th e m t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e p o li c y y o u r t e r m is e n d i n g i n t w o
m o n th s o r t h r e e m o n t h s w e w i ll n o t r e n e w i t .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d y o u w o u l d n o t p u s h t h e p e r s o n
t o l e a v e b e f o r e th a t e x p ir y o f t h a t p e r io d o f tw o m o n th s ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

It m i g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d o n c e o r s o

b u t t h a t w a s n o t th e p o lic y a s f a r a s I r e m e m b e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And what would you say because – I know
you deal with the purging.
a n y p u r g i n g o f o ff ic i a l s .

Yo u s a y d u r i n g y o u r ti m e t h e r e w a s n e v e r

B u t I w o u l d l ik e y o u to lo o k a t th is s c e n a r io

t h a t I a m g o i n g t o p u t t o y o u . A c c o r d i n g t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s Th e k is o
w h o is th e C h ie f Ex e c u ti v e O ffi c e r d e a li n g w i th H u m a n R e s o u r c e s . H e
h a s m e n t io n e d M r Ti a a n O li v i e r ’s c a s e a n d w e h a d t e n d e r e d t h a t
e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s h o w in g t h a t h e h a d t o l e a v e a n d s ti ll
h a d f iv e y e a r s to g o in t e r m s o f h is c o n tr a c t a n d h a d t o b e p a i d h u g e
s u m s o f m o n i e s in o r d e r t o m a k e i t p o s s ib l e f o r h i m t o l e a v e .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e l l I t h i n k t h a t w a s w r o n g b e c a u s e
that was not what we had decided.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o t h a t w o u l d - i f - i f o n e l o o k s a t it
a n d s a y s th a t w a s p u r g i n g y o u w o u l d a g r e e w i t h t h a t s i t u a ti o n .

Am I

correct?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll it - I d i d n o t p a r ti c i p a t e i n th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S o t h e r e m ig h t h a v e b e e n o t h e r

reasons. I do not know but …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

A s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d i f th e r e

w e r e n o o t h e r c o m p e ll in g r e a s o n s t h a t w a s w r o n g b e c a u s e th is s h o u ld
a m o u n t t o fr u it - fr u i t le s s a n d w a s t e f u l e x p e n d it u r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d f r o m w h a t y o u h a v e to l d th e

Page 22 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C h a ir p e r s o n i f h e w a s a n e x c e ll e n t p e r s o n e v e n i f h e h a d to le a v e I a m
s u r e t h e r e w o u l d h a v e h a d t o b e a p e r s o n r e p l a c in g h i m b e c a u s e t h a t
p o s i ti o n o f a C h i e f F in a n c i a l O ffi c e r c a n n o t b e le f t v a c a n t . W o u l d y o u
agree?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Oh no.

In terms of the Chief

Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r c e r t a i n l y …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B u t i n t e r m s o f o th e r p o s it i o n s a s I

s a i d w e - w e t r i e d t o m a tc h p o s i ti o n s i n o r d e r t o s a v e m o n e y.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Do - do you know whether he left at the time when

D r N g u b a n e w a s s t il l C h a ir p e r s o n ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o . N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t w a s a ft e r ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o i t w a s a f te r. A f t e r h e le f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

W h e n y o u - c o u l d y o u j u s t c o n fi r m t h a t

Dr Ngubane?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e n M r O l iv ie r l e f t y o u - y o u h a d a lr e a d y
le f t th e S A B C ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , th a n k y o u .

Page 23 of 179

Now - then as the

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d y o u h a v e j u s t t o l d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t y o u
w e r e a s k e d to - t o p u t u p t h e s e a u s t e r it y m e a s u r e s a s th e b o a r d to
m a k e s u r e th a t t h e S A B C s t o p s b le e d i n g a n d y o u d e a l w i th th o s e
a s p e c ts i n p a r a g r a p h s 9 , 1 0 a n d 11 .
Yo u h a v e a l r e a d y m e n ti o n e d to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h o w y o u d e a l t
w i t h i n te r n a ti o n a l b u y - b u y i n g o f fi l m s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H u h - u h .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th th e r e d u c ti o n
o f s ta ff . N o w c o u l d y o u ju s t …
10

CHAIRPERSON: May - may - maybe - maybe Ms Norman …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

D r N g u b a n e d o y o u h a v e a r e c o l le c ti o n o f m o r e o r

le s s h o w m a n y m a n a g e r s h a d t h e ir c o n tr a c ts n o t r e n e w e d p u r s u a n t to
t h a t p o li c y t h a t y o u d e c i d e d u p o n . N a m e l y i f a m a n a g e r is o n a fi x e d
t e r m c o n tr a c t a n d t h a t c o n tr a c t c o m e s t o a n e n d w e w il l n o t r e n e w it a s
p a r t o f c o s t c u t t in g m e a s u r e s .
D o y o u h a v e a r e c o ll e c ti o n o f a b o u t h o w m a n y y o u - m i g h t
20

h a v e g o n e b a s e d o n t h a t d e c is i o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: P r o b a b l y - p r o b a b l y 1 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o b a b ly 1 0 ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I g u e s s th a t w h a t y o u w o u l d d o is n o t j u s t to s a y
w e ll i f a n d w h e n a c o n tr a c t e n d s w e w i ll n o t r e n e w i t w h a t y o u w o u l d

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
h a v e d o n e i s l o o k a t th e - a t t h e w o r k t h a t t h a t p e r s o n d o e s …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t th e p o s i t io n . O b v i o u s ly i f t h e p o s i t io n - i f t h e w o r k
- th e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s th a t a r e a t t a c h e d t o th a t p o s i ti o n a r e q u i t e
i m p o r t a n t o r e s s e n ti a l …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n - t h e n y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e

t h e r e is n o b o d y p e r f o r m i n g t h o s e d u ti e s a n d i t w o u l d b e a q u e s ti o n
w h e t h e r y o u r e n e w o r e x t e n d t h e c o n tr a c t o f t h e e x i s ti n g p e r s o n o r y o u
10

d o n o t r e n e w t h a t c o n tr a c t b u t y o u g e t s o m e b o d y e l s e . O f c o u r s e i f y o u
g e t s o m e b o d y e ls e t h e n i t is n o t c o s t c u t ti n g m e a s u r e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n e a c h c a s e y o u w o u ld h a v e lo o k e d a t …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w i m p o r t a n t t h e f u n c ti o n is ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d t h e p e r f o r m a n c e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e p e r fo r m a n c e ?

20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d a ll t h o s e 1 0 c a s e s

w o u ld h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t to t h e b o a r d fo r t h e b o a r d t o a p p r o v e t h e e x i t
- e x it a g r e e m e n ts w i t h t h o s e p e r s o n s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w - t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 11 y o u d e a l
w i t h t h e S p o r ts a n d Fi l m R i g h t s .

I am not sure whether you had

lis t e n e d t o t h e e v i d e n c e th a t h a s b e e n t e n d e r e d w h e r e t h e G C E O a n d
t h e - t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e c u r r e n t B o a r d h a d - h a d m e n ti o n e d t h i s
is s u e o f c o s t r i g h ts b e in g q u i te c o s t ly fo r t h e S A - S A B C .
D u r i n g y o u r ti m e a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a n d a s y o u
d e a l w it h i t i n p a r a g r a p h 11 w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g i n s o f a r a s S p o r ts
Rights are concerned?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
10

S A B C h a d lo s t i ts S p o r ts R ig h ts

w h e n w e c a m e . T h e y h a d e v e n lo s t t h e P S L S p o r ts R i g h ts . W h a t w a s
b e i n g s h o w n o f - o n - o f r u g b y a n d P S L g a m e s w a s b e in g b o u g h t fr o m
S u p e r S p o r t a n d o f c o u r s e i t w a s v e r y c o s t ly.

H la u d i w e n t t o s e e

Mr Irvin Khoza to say please the way PSL was handled by the people
before us was wrong.
C a n y o u p l e a s e n o w s ta r t n e g o t i a t i n g w i t h u s a n d g i v e u s
b a c k t h e S p o r ts R ig h ts .

So SABC resumed broadcasting PSL games

t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s b u t o t h e r w is e i t d i d n o t h a v e S p o r t s R i g h ts .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
20

CHAIRPERSON: Did you …?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h e S p o r ts R i g h ts th a t w e h a d fo r

t h e A f r i c a C u p o f N a ti o n s w a s h u g e ly e x p e n s iv e .

I n f a c t w e s to p p e d

that process.

O u r la w y e r s w e n t to P a r i s w h e r e S p o r ts F iv e w a s

headquartered.

They were going to charge us a penalty more than

p r o b a b ly R 2 m il li o n b u t o u r l a w y e r s a r g u e d th e c a s e .

Page 26 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
I t w a s e v e n i n c o u r t i n P a r is a n d w e e n d e d u p p a y in g a b o u t
R 2 7 m i ll io n p e n a lt y fo r c a n c e ll i n g t h e A fr i c a C u p o f N a ti o n s s p o r ts b u t
w e s u b s e q u e n t ly g o t th e r i g h t t o r e c o r d a n d b r o a d c a s t B a f a n a g a m e s
a n d th a t w e n t o n a n d I t h in k i t is s t il l g o i n g o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d th e a g r e e m e n t t h e n w i t h th e P S L th a t
y o u s a y M r H l a u d i r e a c h e d w i t h P S L - s o r r y.

Wa s th a t a g r e e m e n t i n

w r i t in g ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Well that was a board - a board

m a t t e r - a b o a r d d e c i s i o n th a t w e t r y a n d r e - r e g a i n th e P S L S p o r ts
10

Rights because it is one of the most popular shows on SABC 1.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a g e n tl e m a n ’s

a g r e e m e n t t o d e a l w it h th a t a s p e c t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o , n o . I t w a s fo r m a l is e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I d o n o t h a v e t h e r e c o r d s b u t I k n o w
it w a s fo r m a l is e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F o r m a li s e d , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: So there was a written agreement?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s th e r e s h o u l d b e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Yo u k n o w I d o n o t h a v e i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.

Page 27 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u g e t to k n o w h o w S A B C h a d l o s t t h e s e S p o r ts
R i g h t s b e fo r e y o u r t i m e ?

H o w i t h a d c o m e a b o u t t h a t t h e y l o s t th o s e

r ig h ts o r i s t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u n e v e r g o t t o u n d e r - y o u k n o w ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Well

fr o m

what

-

from

the

d is c u s s io n s w i t h M r K h o z a t h e o ffi c i a l s a t S A B C w e r e a b s o l u te ly r u d e
t o w a r d s t h e m . S o a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p b r o k e d o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . I n - i n s o fa r a s t h e r e d u c ti o n o f
s t a ff y o u - y o u a l lu d e d t o t h e f a c t th a t t h e M i n is te r o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s
10

t h e n h a d i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e a ls o w a n t e d a h e a d c o u n t s t r a t e g y a n d - a n d
t h e n y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t in p a r a g r a p h s 1 2 a n d 1 3 b u t in p a r a g r a p h 1 3
w h a t I w o u l d l ik e u s t o t a lk a b o u t is t h a t t h e - t h e h e a d c o u n t s t r a t e g y
h a d n o t b e e n f in a l is e d b u t d o I g e t a s e n s e th a t e v e n t h o u g h i t h a d n o t
b e e n f in a l is e d y o u s t a r t e d e m b a r k i n g o n t h e d e c is io n t o l e t g o o f th o s e
m a n a g e r s w h o s e c o n tr a c ts w e r e n o t g o i n g t o b e r e n e w e d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

That is correct.

T h a t is c o r r e c t

b e c a u s e I s h o u ld - I s h o u ld s a y t h a t i s t h e h i g h e s t c o s t c a m e fr o m th e
r e te n ti o n b o n u s e s fr o m - a n d f r o m t h e b e n e f i ts f o r s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t
a n d m i d d le m a n a g e m e n t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e t e n ti o n b o n u s e s . J u s t e x p l a in t o m e w h a t t h a t t h a t is s o th a t I - I u n d e r s t a n d .

W h a t is t h e - I k n o w a b o n u s e v e n

t h o u g h J u d g e s d o n o t g e t a b o n u s b u t i s t h a t m o n e y th a t a n e x e c u tiv e
g e t s p a i d to g i v i n g a n i n c e n t iv e t o s t a y i n t h e in s ti t u t i o n a n d n o t le a v e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

A b s o l u t e ly C h a ir p e r s o n .

t h i n k o n a t h r e e y e a r ly b a s i s .

Page 28 of 179

It is p a id I

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O n to p o f th e n o r m a l b o n u s e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t th e - t h e c o s t b e c o m e s v e r y h i g h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It - i t h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h p e r f o r m a n c e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll

it

should

be

based

on

performance …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
10

B u t i n p r a c ti c e e v e r y o n e i n a s e n io r

p o s i ti o n ( i n t e r v e n e s ) g e t ti n g t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t g e ts i t ; a n d - a n d w o u l d t h e r e b e a s e p a r a t e

b o n u s f o r p e r f o r m a n c e o r t h e r e w o u l d o n ly b e t h e r e t e n t i o n b o n u s w h ic h
is s u p p o s e d t o t a k e in t o a c c o u n t p e r f o r m a n c e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t w ill b e s e p a r a te b e c a u s e t h e

annual bonus …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B a s e d o n p e r f o r m a n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
20

D e p e n d e d o n t h e m a c h i e v in g a b o u t

60 percent …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e t a r g e ts ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a , o f t h e t a r g e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o t h a t w o u ld b e y e a r ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e - t h is o n e w a s t o - j u s t t o r e t a in
talent …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t i n a n o r g a n is a ti o n o f c o u r s e t h a t
is b lo a t e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W i th fi g u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I m e a n w i t h - w i th p e o p l e . Yo u k n o w.
10

T h e u s e f u l n e s s w a s n o t v e r y c le a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l i t is - i t is k in d o f s u r p r is e s m e . Yo u k n o w.
I d o n o t k n o w y o u k n o w.

Fr o m w h a t y o u s a y I d o n o t th in k i t w o u l d

h a v e b e e n l i m i te d t o w h a t m i g h t c a l l p e o p le w i th r a r e s k il ls . Th a t y o u
w o u ld n o t w a n t t o - y o u w o u l d n o t w a n t t o l e a v e y o u r o r g a n is a ti o n
b e c a u s e g e t t in g p e o p l e w i t h t h o s e s k il ls w o u ld b e q u i t e d i ffi c u l t a n d
m i g h t t a k e y o u l o n g a n d i n t h e p r o c e s s th e i n s ti t u ti o n m i g h t b e
s u ff e r i n g .
I t w a s n o t b a s e d o n th a t - t h i s r e t a in e r. I t w a s p a id t o a lo t o f
o th e r - a l o t o f p e o p l e w h o s e s k il ls m ig h t n o t b e s a i d t o b e r a r e .
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

It

b e c a m e a s o r t o f e s t a b l is h e d p r a c t ic e t h a t c e r t a in p e o p l e g o t r e t e n ti o n
bonuses.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u h a v e a r e c o l le c t io n o f m o r e o r l e s s m a y b e

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
w h a t p e r c e n t a g e o f a - a p e r s o n ’s r e m u n e r a ti o n i t w o u l d b e i n t e r m s o f
h o w i t w o u l d b e c a lc u la t e d ? W o u ld it b e l i k e 1 0 p e r c e n t o f y o u r a n n u a l
s a l a r y o r s o m e - a n y t h in g l ik e th a t o r is t h is - is t h a t a d e t a i l th a t y o u
cannot remember?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

No I cannot remember the actual

d e t a i ls …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s th e r e ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t w a s t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

S o th e n y o u -

y o u s a y th a t w a s t h e n s o m e - o n e o f th e p r i m a r y fo c u s th a t y o u h a d t o
tr y a n d m e e t t h e 1 0 0 0 ta r g e t th a t t h e M in is t e r h a d s e t in s o f a r i n
r e d u c t i o n o f s ta ff is c o n c e r n e d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s a fe e b l e e ffo r t t o
m e e t t h e r e d u c t io n i n h e a d c o u n t .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Huh-uh.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I t d i d n o t g o f a r a t a ll b u t i t w a s

s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e h a d t o d o t o t r y a n d m e e t t h e - t h e c o n d i t io n s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
a n y th in g .

Well let me just make sure I have not missed

I know that at a certain stage I asked you how many

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
m a n a g e r s y o u w e r e a b l e to - n o t t o r e n e w t h e ir c o n tr a c ts a n d y o u s a i d
maybe around 10.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e 1 0 o u t o f 1 0 0 0 t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n d e s ir e d
is q u i te a l o n g w a y b u t a r e t h e r e o t h e r c a t e g o r ie s th a t y o u w e r e a b le t o
- I d o n o t w a n t t o s a y g e t r i d o f - b u t t h a t y o u w e r e a b l e t o a ll o w o r
r e tr e n c h o r - o r t e r m i n a t e a t m a n a g e r i a l l e v e l b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e
M i n is t e r s a i d l e a v e th e u n io n is e d s t a ff a l o n e .
L o o k a t th e m a n a g e m e n t . A r e t h e r e o t h e r s t h a t y o u w e r e a b l e
10

t o a ll o w t o g o ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Well

through

natural

a t tr i t io n

C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d w o u l d t h a t h a v e e n d e d u p b e in g q u i te a

s ig n if ic a n t - s i g n i fi c a n t n u m b e r in t e r m s o f t h e t a r g e ts …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Of 1 000 …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a ll y ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
20

No, no.

We - we just did not even

come near …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: To r e a c h in g th e ta r g e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And your own assessment as - as you sit here and I

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
k n o w t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t r e c a ll a l o t o f d e t a il s - a s y o u s i t h e r e w o u ld
y o u e s ti m a t e th a t m a y b e y o u w e n t u p t o - y o u r e a c h e d 1 0 0 o r 2 0 0 o r
500?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll t h r o u g h n a t u r a l a t tr i t io n w h e r e

w e d i d n o t e m p l o y p e o p le …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

In t h e p o s i ti o n s t h a t w e r e b e i n g

v a c a t e d I w o u l d s a y y e s C h a ir p e r s o n b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S o m e o f t h e - o f th e p e o p l e le f t

b e c a u s e o f t h e f in d in g s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O f th e A u d i to r - G e n e r a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A lo t o f p e o p l e - I m e a n t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l h a d f o u n d th a t 1 4 6 5 p e o p le …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e r e a c t u a ll y d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i t h

the SABC.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M o s t o f t h o s e p e o p l e l e f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o - s o i n th e e n d I - I g u e s s t h a t t h e - t h e

n u m b e r o f p e o p l e le f t e it h e r b e c a u s e o f n a tu r a l a tt r i ti o n o r b e c a u s e o f

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h e fi n d i n g s o f t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l e x c e e d e d 5 0 0 ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o , n o t e x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: P r o b a b l y 3 0 0 o r s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u C h a ir ; a n d - a n d t h e n - s o
in o t h e r w o r d s t h e - t h e b o a r d w o u l d - w o u l d - w a s r e s p o n s i b l e in t h e
10

s e n s e th a t i t w o u l d e n s u r e t h a t w h o e v e r l e ft i n te r m s o f th e p l a n th a t
y o u h a d w h ic h y o u w e r e c a r r y i n g o u t l e f t u n d e r p r o p e r a n d l e g i ti m a t e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e i f s o m e b o d y l e a v e s w h e t h e r it i s r e ti r e m e n t
o r t h e y l e a v e b e c a u s e o f fi n d i n g s i f y o u d o n o t r e p l a c e t h e m l o g ic
d ic t a t e s t h a t m a y b e y o u d i d n o t n e e d s o m e b o d y d o in g w h a t t h e y w e r e
doing.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll p r e c is e l y C h a ir p e r s o n .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

When managers’ report to managers

a n d th e y a r e a t t h e s a m e le v e l th a t is fr u i t l e s s e x p e n d i t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d id y o u g e t t o k n o w h o w t h i s h a d c o m e a b o u t t o
h a v e m a y b e a - a s i g n i fic a n t n u m b e r o f p e o p l e t h a t r e a lly w e r e n o t
r e a l ly n e e d e d i n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n ?

Did you get to know how this had

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
c o m e a b o u t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e l l fr o m 2 0 0 7 t h e h e a d c o u n t h a d

ju s t s h o t t h r o u g h t h e r o o f. P e o p l e w e r e b e i n g e m p l o y e d y o u k n o w a n d
t h e - I t h in k I r e a d s o m e w h e r e t h a t t h e w a g e b il l b e c a u s e o f th e s e n e w
p e o p l e b e in g e m p l o y e d e x c e e d e d s o m e t h i n g li k e 3 0 0 m i ll io n .
CHAIRPERSON: So - so people were being employed whose services
t h e in s t i tu t io n d i d n o t r e a ll y r e q u ir e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Hm. Thank you.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

Is - is th a t th e - t h a n k y o u

C h a ir - is t h a t th e f ig u r e t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 w h e r e y o u
d e a l w it h th e g r o w t h a n d s t a ff n u m b e r s ?

If you go back to your

s t a te m e n t d o c to r - D r N g u b a n e p a g e 4 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y. W h i c h f ig u r e is t h a t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e fi g u r e t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t m e n t io n e d t o
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n i n r e s p o n s e t o h is q u e s t io n . Is t h a t … ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h , j a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t t h e o n e t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: In paragraph 13?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Th a t is c o r r e c t . O h , n o . I s a i d 4 8 0
m il li o n h e r e . Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d n o , n o , n o I th in k y o u d id n o t

f o ll o w m y q u e s ti o n . W h e n y o u a n s w e r e d a b o u t t h e s t a ff n u m b e r s a n d
people being employed and you deal with that aspect in paragraph 13

Page 35 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
a n d i n th e s e n te n c e th a t b e in g s :
“ T h e g r o w th … ”
Is t h a t th e c o r r e c t fi g u r e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : “ T h e g r o w n a n d s t a ff … ”
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I a m - I a m r e c a l li n g i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t , th a n k y o u . Th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5
10

y o u m e n ti o n t h a t w h ils t y o u w e r e w o r k i n g o n th e s e p la n s tr y in g t o t u r n
a r o u n d t h e S A B C y o u h a d m e e ti n g s w i t h t h e M i n i s te r a n d y o u d e a l w i th
t h e f r e q u e n c y o f t h o s e m e e ti n g s .

C o u l d y o u j u s t t e s ti f y t o w h a t y o u

have got in that paragraph and the …?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u ju s t t e s t if y t o w h a t y o u s a y i n g

a b o u t th e M i n i s t e r - h a v i n g m e e t i n g s w i th t h e M i n is t e r o n t h e p r o g r e s s ?
S o r r y a r e y o u o n th e s t a te m e n t D r N g u b a n e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W h e r e t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k ju s t t e l l h i m .
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: 2 0 0 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m s o r r y. J u s t to d ir e c t . P a g e 4 o n to p .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 - 1 .5 .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s , 1 5 y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C o u ld y o u j u s t t e s t i fy to t h a t

p a r a g r a p h b e c a u s e y o u m a k e a n i m p o r ta n t s t a t e m e n t a n d I w o u l d l ik e
t o a s k w h y y o u m a k e th a t s t a te m e n t t h a t t h e r e w a s n o p o li t ic a l p r e s s u r e
a p p li e d t o y o u a n d I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o ta lk t o t h a t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e l l I w a s lu c k y i n a w a y b e c a u s e I
had been in Government before and I knew most - knew most of the
players in Government.

S o i t w a s e a s y t o d is c u s s o n a s o r t o f l e v e l

p l a y in g g r o u n d . S o I c a n n o t s a y th e M i n i s t e r w h e n w e h a v e d is c u s s e d
10

t h e is s u e t h e n f o r c e d m e t o d o s o m e t h i n g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

I just want to understand the

r e l e v a n c e o f th a t p a r t i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
pressure applied on you.

T h a t t h e r e w a s n o p o l i tic a l

I ju s t w a n t to k n o w h o w - h o w d i d it c o m e

a b o u t t h a t y o u fe l t t h a t w h e n y o u d e a l in g w i th t h e m e e ti n g s th a t y o u
w e r e h a v i n g w i th t h e M i n i s te r …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To d e a l w i t h t h e p r o g r e s s …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Yo u f e l t t h a t i t w a s n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u to

p u t in t h a t s e n te n c e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B e c a u s e I m e n t io n t h a t th e M i n is te r

h a d s a i d l e t u s l o o k a t s e n i o r a n d m i d d le m a n a g e m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S o m e p e o p le c o u l d i n te r p r e t t h a t a s

p o li t ic a l p r e s s u r e . I w a s j u s t tr y in g to c l a r i fy t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . T h e n y o u s a y
y o u m a n a g e d t o p a y o ff t h e G o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n te e - y o u h a v e a lr e a d y
t e s ti fi e d - i n o n e a n d a h a l f y e a r s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? A lr ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e t e r m o f t h e G o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n te e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e …
10

CHAIRPERSON: How long were you supposed to …?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: F iv e y e a r s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u p a i d it o ff w i th i n o n e a n d a h a l f y e a r s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
CHAIRPERSON: One and a half years?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d y o u d e a l w i t h y o u r s u p p o r t a n d in

p a r a g r a p h 1 7 y o u a ls o m a k e a n o t h e r s t a t e m e n t t h a t:
20

“ M y v i e w is a ls o th a t t h e p r iv a t e s e c t o r d id n o t
in t e r fe r e w i t h o u r w o r k ”
A n d I w o u ld a s k t h e s a m e q u e s ti o n t h a t I a s k e d a b o u t t h e
o th e r s ta t e m e n t a b o u t n o p o l it ic a l p r e s s u r e a s t o w h y y o u f e l t t h e r e w a s
a n e e d t o m a k e t h a t s ta t e m e n t.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A g a i n b e c a u s e y o u k n o w th e r e w a s a

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lo t o f ta lk a b o u t o u ts i d e in f lu e n c e s o n S A B C d e c i s i o n m a k in g . S o I a m
ju s t b r i n g i n g t h a t i n t o s a y i t w a s m a r k e t f o r c e s t h a t g u id e d o u r
d e c is i o n s n o t b e c a u s e s o m e o n e p u t p r e s s u r e fo r a d e c is io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u - y o u a ls o m a k e i n t h a t s e n t e n c e t h a t :
“ T h e o n ly i n fl u e n c e th e y h a d o v e r u s w a s th e f a c t
t h a t o u r a u d ie n c e r a ti n g s h a d t o b e h i g h f o r u s t o
g e t a d v e r tis in g m o n e y. ”
C o u ld y o u j u s t d e a l w i t h t h a t s o r t o f in f lu e n c e ?

H o w d o e s th a t c o m e

a b o u t f r o m b u s in e s s ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B e c a u s e t h e p e o p l e w h o b u y a ir ti m e
t h e r e a r e o r g a n is a ti o n s t h a t b u y a ir ti m e f o r d i ff e r e n t c o m p a n i e s .

Say

L e v e r B r o th e r s , K e ll o g g ’s y o u k n o w a n d m a n y o t h e r c o n s u m e r m a t e r i a ls
w h e t h e r i t is h o u s e c l e a n in g , li q u i d . T h e y g iv e i t to a c e n tr a l is e d b u y e r
b u t th e b u y e r is o n ly i n te r e s t e d i n a u d ie n c e r a t in g s b e c a u s e t h e y w a n t
t o h a v e v a l u e f o r th e m o n e y th e y a r e s p e n d i n g p a y in g fo r t h e a d v e r t .
S o t h a t is t h e p r e s s u r e th a t a n y b r o a d c a s t e r f a c e s . T h a t y o u
m u s t p u s h u p th e a u d i e n c e r a t in g s in o r d e r to g e t a d v e r ti s i n g r e v e n u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n o th e r w o r d s y o u a r e n o t a t tr a c t iv e t o t h e m i f y o u
20

h a v e lo w r a ti n g s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A u d ie n c e r a ti n g s ? J a .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e - t h e h i g h e r y o u r r a te - r a t i n g s a r e t h e m o r e

a tt r a c t iv e y o u a r e to t h e m ?

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

A b s o l u te ly.

P a r tic u la r ly

in

an

o r g a n i s a t io n w h e r e i n c o m e - 8 5 p e r c e n t o f i n c o m e c o m e s fr o m
a d v e r t is in g .

I t b e c o m e s a g r e a t p r e s s u r e to r a is e y o u r a u d i e n c e

r a ti n g s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d th e n y o u m o v e d
- y o u h a v e a n o th e r s u b p a r a g r a p h o f p a g e 5 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t :
“ R e l a ti o n s h i p

with

th e

Members

of

th e

Gupta

F a m ily. ”
C o u ld y o u ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p i f a n y w i t h
10

t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p t a fa m i ly a s y o u d e a l w it h it i n t h e s e
paragraphs? Paragraphs 16 to 19.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Well

there

was

this

business

p a r t n e r s h i p fo r m o r n in g b r e a k f a s ts .

I attended those breakfasts.

Not

a l l o f t h e m b u t q u i t e a l o t o f t h e m a n d I w o u l d s i t w it h t h e p e o p le i n th e
N e w A g e e d i t o r s , m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p ta f a m il y a n d o n a f e w o c c a s io n s I
w e n t to s o c i a l e v e n ts a t t h e ir h o m e a n d t h a t i s r e a l ly th e e x p o s u r e I
h a d to t h a t f a m il y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W e r e - w e r e y o u j u s t a s t h e s ta r t o f
t h e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r w e r e y o u i n v o l v e d a t a ll ? D id y o u a s s i s t w i th
20

t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s o f t h e N e w A g e d e a l a n d T N A Br e a k f a s t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

No.

T h is w a s a n in i ti a ti v e t h r o u g h

o u r n e w s d e s k - o u r n e w s e d i t o r i a l b o a r d a n d th e o ff ic ia ls o f th e n e w s .
W e o n ly g o t in v o lv e d w h e r e I h a d to g o a n d p r o b a b ly m a k e a s p e e c h a t
a - t o i n tr o d u c e t h e M i n i s t e r a t a b r e a k f a s t m e e t i n g a n d t h a t s o r t o f
t h i n g b u t w e w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d a s a b o a r d i n t h e a c t u a l n e g o ti a ti o n s .

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M s M o k h o b o w h o w a s th e G C E O h a d
t e s ti fi e d t h a t w h e n s h e w a s a p p o in t e d t o t h a t p o s i ti o n s h e w a s t a k e n t o
b e in tr o d u c e d t o t h e G u p t a f a m il y. D i d t h a t h a p p e n to y o u ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o b e c a u s e I d id n o t h a v e a n y p o w e r
in te r m s o f a p p o i n ti n g c o m p a n i e s o r p e o p l e w h o s u p p ly s e r v ic e s a t
S A B C . A s C h a ir p e r s o n I d id n o t h a v e t h a t p o w e r. S o I p r e s u m e I w a s
ir r e l e v a n t a s fa r a s t h a t w a s c o n c e r n e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e ll y o u - y o u c o u ld - y o u c o u l d b e i r r e l e v a n t i f

s o m e b o d y w a s l o o k i n g d o i n g b u s i n e s s l a w fu ll y b u t y o u c o u l d b e
r e l e v a n t i f t h e y w a n te d t o d o i t u n l a w f u l l y.

Yo u s a y t o th e m I d o n o t

h a v e p o w e r t o d o t h a t. T h e y s a y n o c o m e o n y o u a r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
of the Board.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e v e r y p o w e r f u l i n S A B C .

Ta lk t o s o a n d s o .

D i d n o b o d y e v e r s a y a n y t h in g a l o n g t h o s e li n e s ? W e w a n t - w e w a n t to
in c r e a s e th is . W e w a n t t o g e t t h a t .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e y d i d n o t n e e d

t o a c t u a l ly b e c a u s e th e n e w s p e o p l e d e a l t w i t h t h e m o n t h o s e b u s in e s s
20

is s u e s y o u k n o w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t I a m n o w t a l k i n g m o r e b e y o n d j u s t - j u s t th e
b r e a k f a s t s h o w s . I a m t a lk i n g ju s t in g e n e r a l .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w t h a t t h e y w e r e - w h i le - w h i l e y o u w e r e

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C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e r e w e r e n o b u s i n e s s p e o p l e o r a n y p e o p l e w h o m a d e
a n y a t t e m p ts to g e t y o u to in f lu e n c e p e o p l e to g i v e t h e m b u s i n e s s a t
SABC?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o . T h a t d i d n o t h a p p e n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: That did not happen?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d y o u s a y y o u h a d a l s o
10

v is it e d t h e i r h o m e s o c ia ll y. Yo u d i d v is it t h e m s o c i a ll y ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

W h o e x a c tl y i n v it e d y o u to t h e s e

s o c ia l g a t h e r i n g s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll

i n v i ta t io n s

used

to

come

t h r o u g h m y PA . S o I w o u l d g e t a l is t o f i n v i te s a n d I s a y o k a y y o u c a n
t a k e t h i s o n e , n o t t a k e th is o n e a n d s o o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d I m e a n a m o n g t h e G u p t a fa m i ly

m e m b e r s w h o e x a c tl y i n v it e d y o u t o a t te n d t h e s e s o c ia l g a t h e r i n g s ?
T h e r e w o u l d b e a p e r s o n w h o w o u l d b e in c h a r g e o f t h a t p a r ti c u la r
20

event.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll N a z e e m H o w a w a s i n c h a r g e o f
T N A a n d I t h i n k i t w a s h i m w h o d id t h e in v i t e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u a t a n y s t a g e b e c o m e c l o s e t o th e G u p ta

f a m ily o r a n y b o d y i n t h e G u p t a f a m il y a n d w h e n I s a y c l o s e I a p p r e c i a te
t h a t i t m i g h t b e d i ff ic u l t t o s a y w h e n - w h e n is c l o s e , c lo s e b u t y o u -

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y o u m i g h t b e a b l e o n y o u r o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g to s a y w e l l th e f o l l o w in g
o v e r ti m e w e d i d b e c o m e c l o s e o r w e n e v e r b e c a m e c lo s e .

I went to

o n e o r tw o s o c ia l e v e n ts a n d th a t w a s i t .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e l l th e e d i t o r o f N e w A g e w e - w e

g o t t o b e fr i e n d s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t n o t t h e r e s t o f f a m il y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

And

the

-

the

editor

at

that

stage

M r ( i n d is t in c t) ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M o e g s i e n W i ll ia m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll ia m s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o I w a s t h i n k in g o f t h e w i t n e s s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h . Yo u - y o u t h in k i n g a b o u t T N A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T N A - t h a t is th e N e w A g e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is t h e N e w A g e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h e e d it o r o f t h e N e w A g e …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n e y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir - A N N 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. I was thinking of the witness

Page 43 of 179

was

it

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: About …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o c a m e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Mr Sundaram.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e w a s f o r th e te l e v i s io n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: ANN7. That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: No. Is that ANN7?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t is a lr i g h t.

S o t h a t is th e p e r s o n t h a t y o u

consider yourself to have been close at some stage?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u ; a n d t h e n in t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h
y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t th e - t h e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s a n d w h a t
b r o u g h t th is a b o u t a n d h o w d i d t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n th e S A B C a n d
t h e - t h e - a n d T N A d e v e l o p i n s o fa r a s t h e s e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s w e r e
concerned?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
20

Well

the

-

our

news

people

d e v e l o p e d t h a t r e la t io n s h ip t h a t th e r e w o u ld b e t h e s e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s .
W e w o u l d r e c o r d t h e m a n d b r o a d c a s t t h e m l iv e .

There was even an

a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s s i g n e d b y m e m b e r s o f th e n e w s r o o m w i t h t h e N e w
A g e / TN A w h ic h s p e l t o u t t h e m o d a li t ie s o n h o w t h e s e s h o w s w i ll b e
arranged.
T h e N e w A g e w o u ld h ir e t h e h a ll , p r o v i d e t h e b r e a k fa s t , p a y

Page 44 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
f o r f la t s c r e e n s , p a y f o r p r o je c t o r s , p a y f o r r o v i n g m ic s .

The SABC

w o u ld s e n d o u t i ts o u ts i d e b r o a d c a s t v a n s w i th th e t e c h n ic i a n s a n d t h e
p r e s e n t e r s a n d t h a t i s h o w t h e r o l e s w e r e d iv i d e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

And were you in terms of that agreement

e x p e c te d to b i ll T I A f o r s e n d in g o u t y o u r b r o a d c a s t v a n s ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

N o , n o , n o , I m e a n o u r n e w s s e c ti o n

w a s a l w a y s lo o k i n g f o r n e w w a y s o f a t t a c k in g a u d i e n c e s o f b u i ld i n g u p
t h e a u d i e n c e r a t in g s b y n e w o ff e r in g s s o t h e i r a p p r o a c h t o th e s e
b r e a k f a s t w a s a n e w o ffe r i n g o n th e M o r n i n g L i v e s lo t .
10

Now Morning

L iv e w a s a v e r y p o p u la r, a n d I th i n k s ti ll a v e r y p o p u l a r c h a n n e l
b e c a u s e p e o p l e w a k e u p , i t ’s l ik e m o r n i n g c o ff e e , I s a y t o my s e l f , t h e y
w a k e u p to M o r n i n g L i v e . M o r n in g L iv e d e a ls w i t h p o li t ic s , w i th s c i e n c e
a n d t e c h n o lo g y, w i th p r o m i n e n t p e r s o n a li t ie s , w i th s p o r t , w it h w e a t h e r
r e p o r t s , w i th m a r k e t r e l a t e d m a t e r i a l . S o i t s o r t o f p r e p a r e s p e o p l e in
t h e m o r n i n g a s t o w h a t t h e a g e n d a fo r th e d a y is g o i n g to b e . S o i t’s
g o t t h a t v a lu e in i t, i t’s th e fir s t k i c k - o ff a s i t w e r e to t h e b r o a d c a s t o f
t h e d a y s o p u t ti n g t h e b r e a k f a s t i n th e r e w a s a n a d d i t io n in t e r m s o f th e
p o li t ic a l s id e o f M o r n i n g L iv e w h e r e M i n i s t e r s a r e p u t b e f o r e p e o p l e ,
a u d ie n c e s , th e a u d i e n c e s c a n q u e s ti o n t h e M in is t e r o r th e P r e s id e n t o n

20

a n y th in g a n d t h e p e o p l e o u ts i d e c a n jo in i n th r o u g h t e l e p h o n i c
t e l e p h o n e s , s o c i a l m e d ia a n d s o o n S M S ’s to a s k t h e M in is t e r s , t o h o l d
t h e M i n i s t e r s a c c o u n ta b l e .

S o t h is w a s s e e n a s a n in n o v a ti o n t h a t

c o u l d o n ly b e n e f i t t h e a u d i e n c e r a ti n g s o f t h e n e w s s e c t i o n , p a r t ic u l a r ly
m o r n in g li v e , s o t h a t ’s h o w w e p e r c e iv e d it a s a c o n t e n t c r e a ti n g n e w
c o n te n t t o t h e p u b ic a n d n e w o p p o r tu n i t ie s .

Page 45 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s h o w d i d th a t th e n a s s i s t w i th t h e

a i li n g f in a n c ia l s i t u a t i o n o f t h e S A B C ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

W e ll a s I s a id C h a ir p e r s o n l e t m e

t a k e t h e c h e a p e s t w h i c h is a M e tr o F M R 5 4 0 p e r h a l f a s e c o n d r e p e a t e d
m a n y t i m e s b e t w e e n s a y s e v e n a n d n i n e , t h a t ’s a l o t o f m o n e y. S o i f
M o r n in g L iv e p u s h e d u p i t ’s a u d i e n c e r a t in g s th e y c o u l d c h a r g e e v e n
R1000 per half a second.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e p r i c e w h ic h t h e S A B C w o u l d c h a r g e fo r a ir ti m e
o r a d v e r ti s i n g w o u ld b e i n fl u e n c e d b y, o n e , th e l e v e l o f th e r a t in g s ,
10

a u d ie n c e r a t in g s a t t h e p a r tic u la r ti m e o f t h e a d v e r t a n d I t h i n k y o u
s a i d t h e ty p e o f p e o p le w h o w o u l d b e w a t c h i n g a r o u n d t h a t ti m e , I t h i n k
y o u m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h i n g lik e t h a t .

S o t h a t i f th e S A B C k n o w s t h a t

b u s i n e s s A w a n t s o n e m i n u t e a t th a t t i m e b u t t h e r e a r e m a n y o th e r s
w h o w o u ld lik e th a t o n e mi n u te a t t h a t t i m e , th e y c o u l d s a y w e w a n t
m o r e fo r t h is o n e m in u t e b e c a u s e if y o u d o n ’t t a k e i t t h e n s o m e b o d y
e ls e w i ll t a k e i t a n d t h e r e f o r e th e b u s i n e s s e s w o u ld b e p r e p a r e d to p a y
m o r e a s w e l l b e c a u s e t h e r e is p r i m e , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f t h a t is t h e te r m
u s e d , it ’s t h e b e s t ti m e , o n e o f t h e b e s t ti m e s to a d v e r tis e ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:
20

Yo u ’r e a b s o lu t e l y r i g h t C h a ir p e r s o n

it d e p e n d s o n t h e ti m e o f d a y, i t d e p e n d s o n t h e d a y i n t h e w e e k , f o r
in s t a n c e w e e k e n d s S u n d a y a n d S a tu r d a y t h e p r ic e s a r e q u i te lo w b u t
d u r i n g t h e w e e k , p e a k h o u r, m o r n i n g , e v e n i n g , s p o r t s y o u k n o w a ll
t h o s e g e t g o o d p r ic i n g f o r a ir ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll i t ’s j u s t i n te r e s t i n g t o m e t o s a y w e e k e n d s t h e

p r i c e s a r e l o w b e c a u s e I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t t h a t w e e k e n d s is w h e n a

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
lo t o f p e o p l e w o u l d b e w a tc h i n g t e l e v is i o n b e c a u s e a lo t o f p e o p l e
w o u ld n o t b e w o r k i n g , u n l ik e d u r i n g t h e w e e k d a y s a n d th e r e f o r e t h e
a u d ie n c e w o u l d b e h i g h e r, is th a t j u s t i g n o r a n c e o n my p a r t?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e ll w e e k e n d s p e o p l e g o t o c h u r c h

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d m o s t o f t h e m g o t o c h u r c h o n ly i n th e m o r n i n g s .

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

A n d o f c o u r s e w e e k e n d s is s p o r t s ,

s p o r ts i s t h e w i n n in g n u m b e r f o r w e e k e n d s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u , t h a n k y o u C h a ir, s o y o u s a y i n

p a r a g r a p h 2 3 y o u f o u n d th a t t h e s e w e r e v a l u e a d d i n g , th e s e b r e a k fa s t
shows?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e o u r s a l e s

k e p t o n i m p r o v i n g s o th e s e p r o g r a m m e s w e r e t h e r e f o r e a d d i n g v a l u e
because we could make money and we improved year by year in terms
o f i m p r o v i n g t h e f in a n c e s o f th e S A B C .

So the value add there was

t h a t w e c o u l d s e l l o u r a ir t i m e a t h i g h e r p r ic e s a n d g e t b e t t e r r e v e n u e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d w e r e n ’ t y o u a t s o m e p o i n t a t a l l,

c o n c e r n e d t h a t n o w t h e S A B C h a d e s t a b lis h e d t h i s r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h
20

t h is p a r ti c u la r c o m p a n y w h ic h w a s g o i n g t o – a c c o r d i n g t o t h e
a g r e e m e n t t o l a s t fo r th r e e y e a r s a n d d id y o u a t a l l, g e t c o n c e r n s t h a t
m a y b e it m i g h t b e s e e n t h a t y o u h a d – t h e S A B C h a d p r e f e r r e d a
p a r t ic u l a r c o m p a n y o v e r o t h e r s o r th a t t h e r e la t io n s h ip it s e l f w a s s o
c lo s e t h a t i t m ig h t h a v e a w a y o f in t e r f e r in g

w i t h w h a t is e x p e c t e d

w i t h i n t h e e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y, t h a t y o u s h o u l d n ’ t

have – SABC shouldn’t

Page 47 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
h a v e p a r tn e r s s o a s t o k e e p i t ’s o b j e c tiv i ty a n d i n d e p e n d e n c e ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

W e l l y o u k n o w, C h a ir p e r s o n , in

b r o a d c a s t in g i t ’s p r o b a b ly d i ff e r e n t , y o u k n o w i f th e S A B C w a s c r e a ti n g
a p r o g r a m m e o f i t ’s o w n r u n n in g i t, p r o b a b ly t h e n i t w o u l d n e e d t o g o
t h e – fo ll o w t h e s u p p ly c h a i n r e q u ir e m e n t , a d v e r t is in g , c a l li n g f o r
in t e r v ie w s b u t w h e n s o m e o n e c o m e s w i t h a p r o g r a m m e a n d s a y s , w e
t h i n k t h is c a n m a k e y o u m o n e y t h e n t h e r e ’s n o p r o c e s s o f a d v e r ti s i n g
t h a t a n d th is i s w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e S A B C N e w A g e p a r tn e r s h ip .
T h e p e o p l e i n n e w s t h o u g h t t h is w a s a n o v e l id e a , it w o u ld w o r k f o r u s
10

a n d th e n t h e y s i g n e d a n a g r e e m e n t o n i t. S o i t w a s n ’ t r e a ll y p r e fe r r i n g
– i f y o u s a y B u s i n e s s D a y o r I n d e p e n d e n t N e w s p a p e r s c a m e w i th s u c h
a p r o p o s a l a n d i t w a s a p p e a li n g to p e o p l e in n e w s , I’ m s u r e t h e y ’l l ta k e
it . S o i t w a s n ’ t r e a lly a c a s e o f p r e f e r r i n g g r o u p o f p e o p l e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e n , I ’ m n o t s u r e h o w f a m ili a r y o u w e r e

w i t h th e a g r e e m e n t , I’ m s u r e i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t t o th e B o a r d
b e c a u s e t h e s e s h o w s w e r e g o i n g to b e t w i c e a m o n th , i f I m a y j u s t
c h e c k , ju s t m a k e r e fe r e n c e to i t , i t ’s in t h e s a m e b u n d le – y e s i t’s i n t h e
s a m e b u n d l e w i t h y o u r l e a v e C h a ir c a n I ju s t a s k t h a t t h e w i t n e s s b e
a s s is t e d t o p a g e t h r o u g h to M s M o k h o b o ’s s t a te m e n t th a t s a i d – t h a t is
20

w h e r e th e T N A a g r e e m e n t is .
CHAIRPERSON:

What page?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I ’l l g iv e y o u n o w C h a ir, th a t ’s fr o m p a g e

1 0 – i t ’s f o l d e r, t h e d i v i d e r 2 1 a n d t h e a g r e e m e n t s t a r ts fr o m p a g e 1 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u a b l e t o s e e fo ld e r o r d iv i d e r 2 1 t h e g r e e n

one?

Page 48 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Oh ja.

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, i f I m a y j u s t – t h a t is

t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s i d e n t i fi e d b y M s M o k h o b o a s h a v i n g s i g n e d t h a t
a g r e e m e n t w i t h T N A b u t I’ d l ik e t o ta k e y o u – y e s i f y o u c o u ld p le a s e
t u r n t o p a g e 1 5 o f t h a t v e r y d o c u m e n t a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o d ir e c t y o u r
a tt e n ti o n t o [i n d is t in c t ] p a r a g r a p h 5 .6 . I t r e a d s ,
“ I t i s s p e c i fi c a lly r e c o r d e d t h a t t h e S A B C s h a l l b r o a d c a s t t w o
e v e n t s p e r m o n t h a n d t h e S A B C s h a ll a t a ll ti m e s h a v e f in a l
e d i to r i a l c o n tr o l ” .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s w e r e y o u a l s o a w a r e th a t th is w a s t h e

a r r a n g e m e n t, t h is w a s th e a g r e e m e n t th a t t h e s e b r e a k fa s t s h o w s w o u l d
b e t w o p e r m o n th ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

N o t h i s w a s a m a n a g e m e n t is s u e , s o

t h e B o a r d d i d n ’ t r e a lly g e t i n v o l v e d i n t h e t e r m s , w e w e r e to l d , o f
c o u r s e o f h o w th e e x p e n d i tu r e is g o in g t o b e b u t w e w e r e n o t
p a r t ic ip a n ts .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A lr ig h t s o e v e n w h e n th e s e n u m b e r s

escalated you would have known as the Board?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

As lo n g a s t h e y d id n ’ t e x c e e d t h e

d e l e g a t e d a u th o r i ty o f th e p e o p le i n n e w s , a s l o n g a s t h e y w e r e a c ti n g
w i t h i n th a t d e le g a te d a u t h o r i ty, i t w a s t h e i r m a t te r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u , th e n y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h

2 6 b e c a u s e 2 4 a n d 2 5 y o u r e f e r to o n e t h i n g , t h a t y o u n e v e r a s k e d fo r a
f u r th e r b a i l o u ts f r o m Tr e a s u r y, c a n y o u j u s t t e l l h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
that?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s p a r a g r a p h 2 6 .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Oh you back, I beg your pardon, you go

b a c k to y o u r s t a te m e n t n o w, y e s th a n k y o u , p a r a g r a p h 2 6 i s a t p a g e 7 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Page 7 at the top right hand corner and paragraph 26

a t t h e b o t to m o f th e p a g e .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

S o r r y c a n y o u j u s t r e p e a t th e p a g e

a g a in ?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

P a g e 7 i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t , h a v e y o u fo u n d y o u r

s t a te m e n t , w e a r e b a c k t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o p a r a g r a p h 2 3 is i t ?

26.

26 at the bottom of page 7.

D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e n e v e r a s k e d Tr e a s u r y fo r b a i l

o u t y e s w e d id n ’t .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d w o u l d y o u s a y t h e n t h e fi n a n c e s

at this point had improved?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

Well yes the SABC was self

s u s t a i n in g .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d th a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n u n ti l y o u le f t ?

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

T h a t w a s th e p o s i ti o n , i t w a s

a c t u a ll y – w e w e r e i m p r o v in g a l l t h e t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n th e [ in d is ti n c t ] a s p e c t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
y o u ’v e a l r e a d y m e n ti o n e d , w e s ta r t e d w i t h i t , y o u r e m e m b e r th is is
w h e r e y o u to l d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a b o u t th e p la n n o t t o r e n e w c o n tr a c ts
t h a t h a d c o m e t o a n e n d , s o t h a t’s w h a t y o u d e a l w i th t h e r e i n
paragraphs 28 to 31.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Right.

T h e n t h e n e x t t o p ic w e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l

w i t h M r H l a u d i M o t s o e n e n g – C h a i r I s e e t h e ti m e is n o w q u a r te r p a s t
eleven.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h y e s le t ’s t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t i t ’s q u a r t e r

p a s t e le v e n , w e ’l l ta k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t a n d w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t h a lf
p a s t e le v e n , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t u s p r o c e e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . W e a r e n o w a t p a g e
9 of your statement Doctor Ngubane.

A n d y o u d e a l th e r e fr o m

paragraph

d e a l in g s

32

and

f o ll o w i n g

with

your

with

Mr

Hlaudi

M o ts o e n e n g c o u l d y o u t h e n t e l l t h e C h a i r p e r s o n h o w d i d y o u g e t t o
20

k n o w M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d u n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s ta n c e s ?

Oh sorry your

m ic r o p h o n e is o ff . I b e g y o u r – s o r r y. A n d a ls o s w i t c h it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u c a n j u s t p r e s s – th e r e is a b u t to n th e r e j a .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .l
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : W e ll H l a u d i c a m e fr o m B l o e m f o n t e in

Page 51 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t o th e S A B C t r a n s f e r r e d t h e r e b y th e C E O S A B C M r M o k w e tl e .

All

r e g i o n a l r a d i o s ta t io n s w e r e l o s i n g m o n e y b u t t h e B l o e m f o n t e i n s ta t io n
t h r o u g h L e s e d i n e w s w a s m a k in g a p r o f i t a n d H l a u d i w a s i n c h a r g e o f
n e w s i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y a t L e s e d i . S o th e C E O M o k w e tl e s a id h e
w a n ts t o b r i n g t h is y o u n g m a n i n to S A B C – H l a u d i w a s e m p lo y e d a t
SABC 1995.
CHAIRPERSON: 1995?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE: And somehow we had got to know the
S A B C v e r y w e ll . S o w e s a i d w e w il l b r in g h i m h e r e s o t h a t h e c a n u s e
h i m t o d e a l w i t h t h e o t h e r p r o b l e m a tic r e g i o n a l r a d i o s t a ti o n s .

So I

a g r e e d w i th h i m . I th o u g h t i t w a s a g o o d id e a . B e c a u s e w e h a d t o f ix
t h is p r o b le m .

O u r a u s t e r it y m e a s u r e s w e r e s u c h t h a t a l l t h e s e

in s t i tu t io n s h a d t o b e s e l f- s u s t a i n i n g a n d s e l f - f u n d i n g . S o H l a u d i c a m e
in t o t h e C E O ’s o ffic e a s s t a k e h o l d e r r e l a ti o n s r e g a r d i n g t h e r e g io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d th a t – w o u l d t h e p o s i ti o n h a v e b e e n c a l l e d

S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e r o r s o m e t h i n g lik e t h a t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Th a t is r ig h t . A n d h e s ta r t e d w o r k in g
o n t h e r e g i o n a l s ta t io n s . H e e v e n t o o k m e t o s o m e o t h e r s w h ic h w e r e
p r o b le m a t ic li k e M p u m a la n g a a n d o t h e r s . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m i n
t h e ir o r d e r w h e r e w e – I w a s g i v i n g p e p t a lk t o s ta ff .
prepared them of course of these reasons.

Page 52 of 179

I mean he had

A n d w e s t a r t e d g e t ti n g

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
people cooperating.

Th e y u s e d t o c o m p l a i n t h a t h e a d o ff ic e d o e s n o t

c a r e fo r t h e m e v e n i f t h e y w a n t to b u y t e a a n d m i lk a n d s u g a r t h e y m u s t
a p p ly t o h e a d o ff ic e . Th e y a r e n o t g iv e n t h e a u t h o r i ty. S o w e s o r t o f
m a n a g e d t o p o lis h t h r o u g h t h o s e i s s u e s . A n d t h e m o r a l e w a s h i g h a n d
t h e s t a ti o n s s t a r t e d d o i n g v e r y w e ll .

S o w h e n th e p e o p l e r e s p o n s i b l e

f o r t u r n a r o u n d i n t h e C E O ’s o ff ic e le f t b e c a u s e o f m o n e y d is p u te s – p a y
d is p u te s th e C E O a p p o i n t e d h i m o n t h e t u r n a r o u n d p o s i t io n i n t h e
C E O ’s o ffic e . A n d o f c o u r s e fr o m t h e r e t h e n t h in g s s t a r t e d h a p p e n i n g
b e c a u s e H l a u d i w a s s e e n a s a tr o u b l e - s h o o te r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M o ts o e n e n g I a m …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M r M o ts o e n e n g o h s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n .

tr o u b le - s h o o te r. A n d h e w a s v e r y p r o - a c t iv e .

Wa s s e e n a s a

I m e a n w i th t h e la b o u r

u n i o n s y o u k n o w w i t h a l l is s u e s t h a t c a m e u p h e w o u l d t h e r e h a n d s o n
a n d s o w h e n u l ti m a t e ly h e g o t t o b e e l e v a t e d to G r o u p t o E X C O l e t u s
p u t it t h a t w a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : A n d t h a t is w h e n r e a l ly h e c a m e t o
20

p r o m in e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E X C O w o u ld b e G C E O , C F O a n d C O O ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

COO and of course the senior

managers.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e s e n io r m a n a g e r s a s w e l l?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .

Page 53 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : S o – s o r r y th is p r o g r e s s io n t h e n fr o m b e in g a
s t a k e h o ld e r li a i s o n t o b e in g a n a c ti n g C O O h o w d id t h a t – h o w d id t h a t
happen?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

W e ll th e b o a r d t h e n d e c i d e d –

b e c a u s e y o u k n o w w h e n w e c a m e S A B C m a n a g e m e n t a n d l a b o u r u n io n s
w e r e a t r e a l l o g g e r h e a d s m a i n ly a r o u n d s a l a r ie s . T h e r e w a s s o m u c h
d i ff e r e n t ia l i n s a l a r ie s a n d s o o n . S o th e u n i o n s w e r e a p r o b l e m f o r u s
p a r t ic u l a r ly t r y i n g t o d e a l w it h t h e t u r n a r o u n d a n d h e a d c o u n t r e d u c ti o n
10

and so on.
person.

S o H l a u d i w a s a s s ig n e d t o t h e b o a r d ’s c o m m u n ic a ti o n

He would deal with – and stakeholder manager on behalf of

t h e b o a r d n o t ju s t th e G C E O .

A n d t h a t is h o w h e g o t to u l ti m a t e l y

become an acting CEO. Because now a lot of assignments were being
g iv e n h i m t o d e a l w i t h .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N :

Ye s . A n d t h e n o r d i n a r i ly w h o is r e s p o n s i b l e

f o r m a k e – f o r a p p o i n ti n g p e o p l e t o t h e s e e x e c u tiv e p o s i ti o n s in a n
a c ti n g c a p a c i ty ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll t h e C E O .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:
20

A p p o i n t e d h i m i n h i s o ff ic e b u t w e

n e e d i n g a c t iv e s e r v ic e i n t e r m s o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n in te r ms o f d e a li n g
w i t h is s u e s lik e th e A u d i to r G e n e r a l ’s fi n d in g s a n d m a n y o t h e r a s p e c ts
t h a t w e r e v e r y t h o r n y a t t h e ti m e h e w a s t h e n a p p o in t e d a c t in g C O O .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . C o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t
– w h a t s k i ll d id h e b r in g ?

I m e a n i f y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t a C h ie f

O p e r a t io n s O ff ic e r y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l ’s fi n d i n g s

Page 54 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h o s e a r e la r g e l y m a t t e r s th a t w o u l d d e a l w i t h t h e f in a n c i a l a s p e c ts o f
t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . S o w h a t is t h e s k il l th a t h e w a s b r in g in g o n b o a r d t o
d e a l w it h t h o s e m a t t e r s ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E : W e l l t h e s k il l w a s p e o p l e ’s s k il l . Yo u
k n o w M r A l w y n w h o a p p o in t e d h i m i n 1 9 9 5 s a id th a t i n i t ia lly h e h a d
b e e n a s tr i n g e r f o r s p o r ts .

B u t th e w a y h e w r o t e s p o r ts r e p o r ts w e r e

v e r y a t tr a c t iv e to t h e lis t e n e r s a n d s o h e b r o u g h t h i m i n t o o t h e r a s p e c ts
o f S A B C lik e n e w s b e c a u s e h e h a d t h is a b i li ty t o c r e a t e a s t o r y. S o I
w o u ld s a y i n s h o r t th e s k i lls h e h a d w e r e p e o p l e s k i lls a n d t h a t is w h a t
10

w e n e e d e d a t th a t t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n h e w a s a p p o i n t e d S t a k e h o l d e r s R e l a ti o n s

M a n a g e r I th in k t h a t is t h e p o s i t io n y o u m e n ti o n e d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I g u e s s a s th e fi r s t p o s i ti o n t h a t h e h e l d a t S A B C

h e a d o ff ic e a f t e r b e in g b r o u g h t in fr o m t h e Fr e e S t a t e , is t h a t r ig h t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W h o – h a d t h e r e b e e n s o m e o n e e ls e w h o h a d

h e l d t h a t p o s it i o n b e f o r e n a m e ly S t a k e h o ld e r R e la t io n s M a n a g e r ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :
20

Th e r e w a s in t h e S A B C h o w e v e r

t h e r e w a s n o n e f o r th e b o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: There was none for the board?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e s s u r e w e w e r e
u n d e r t o c o n v i n c e t h e u n i o n s t o d o a ll t h e ty p e s th in g s o f t u r n a r o u n d

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
w h ic h i m p a c t e d o n p e o p l e w e fe l t t h a t h e w o u l d b e a b le t o h a n d le t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o d o e s th a t m e a n th a t t h e r e w e r e t h e r e f o r e t w o

S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s M a n a g e r s o n e w h o h a d a lw a y s b e e n th e r e w h o
w a s d o i n g t h is jo b o n b e h a l f o f – o r f o r t h e m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e n n o w
another one doing it for the board?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H e c o m b i n e d it a l l C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: He combined the two?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h e p e r s o n w h o h a d d o n e i t –
10

had been doing it before him?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll …
CHAIRPERSON: Or the management?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: F o r th e C E O ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

W e l l I p r e s u m e th e C E O h a d

d is m i s s e d w h o e v e r h a d b e e n th e r e b e c a u s e h e b r o u g h t h i m f r o m t h e
Fr e e S t a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

S o w h e n h e b r o u g h t Mr M o t s o e n e n g t h e o t h e r

p e r s o n d i d n o t c o n t i n u e d o in g t h is jo b ?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e m ig h t h a v e – h e o r s h e m ig h t h a v e g o n e – b e e n

g iv e n o t h e r r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s o r w h a te v e r ?
DR BALDWIN

SIPHO

NGUBANE:

Ja

C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I a s s u m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s .

Page 56 of 179

we

did

not discuss

that

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e s i t u a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h e n M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s d o i n g t h is jo b w a s
y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t h e w a s a t t h a t s t a g e d o in g i t f o r t h e b o a r d b u t
t h e r e w a s n o b o d y e l s e t o t a lk to o u t s i d e r s a b o u t t h e s a m e is s u e s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w I a m w o n d e r i n g w h y th e b o a r d n e e d e d

s o m e b o d y to d o t h a t f o r t h e m s i m p ly b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w o u l d
h a v e b e e n t h a t t h e – t h a t w o u l d r e l a t e t o o p e r a t io n a l m a t te r s t h a t o n e
w o u ld e x p e c t to g o u n d e r t h e m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h a t it w o u ld n o t b e
10

s o m e t h i n g th a t t h e b o a r d w o u ld b e i n v o lv e d i n r e la t i o n s w i t h u n io n s a n d
s o o n a n d s o o n . A m I m is t a k e n i n t h a t r e g a r d ?
DR

BALDWIN

SIPHO

NGUBANE:

C h a ir p e r s o n

under

normal

c ir c u m s ta n c e s it w o u l d b e e x a c t ly a s y o u a r e s a y i n g i t b u t th is s i tu a ti o n
w e w e r e in a n d t h e b o a r d w a s b e c o m i n g v e r y a c t iv i s t a t S A B C b e c a u s e
t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h m a n a g e m e n t w a s i n m a n y w a y s v e r y w e a k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is b e tw e e n t h e b o a r d a n d t h e m a n a g e m e n t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d t h e m a n a g e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : S o t h e r e w a s a lo t o f c o m m u n i c a t io n s
20

t h a t t h e b o a r d w a n t e d to g e t a c r o s s to g e n e r a l s t a ff , l a b o u r u n io n s a n d
so on.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o – s o t h e r e w a s a n a p p r e c ia t io n t h a t

n o r m a l ly th is is n o t w h a t th e b o a r d w o u l d b e in v o lv e d i n b u t t h e b o a r d
c o n s i d e r e d t h a t th e c i r c u ms t a n c e s i n w h i c h t h e S A B C w a s w e r e s u c h
t h a t th e b o a r d h a d to g e t in v o lv e d i n t h e s e i s s u e s ?

Page 57 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d t h e n i n –
w h e n h e a c t e d in t h a t p o s i ti o n o f t h e C O O p o s i ti o n w h e n h e a c t e d th e r e
d o y o u k n o w w h o – w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h e p e r s o n w h o i n i t ia ll y o c c u p i e d
– w h o w a s o c c u p y in g t h a t – w h o l e f t h a v i n g o c c u p i e d th a t p o s i t io n a s t o
what happened to that person?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e l l th e r e w a s a n a c t in g C O O n o t –
w e ll p r o b a b l y I n e e d to e x p l a in t h is a b i t .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e r e h a d b e e n a n a d v e r tis e m e n t fo r
t h e p o s i t io n o f C O O .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE: Mr Mbebe passed the interview was
r e c o m m e n d e d t o th e M i n is t e r b u t t h e M i n i s t e r d i d n o t ta k e f o r w a r d t h a t
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o c a b in e t . S o h e w a s n o t a p p o i n t e d to t h a t p o s i t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : A n d w h o w a s t h e M i n is t e r a t t h e t i m e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M s C a s a b u r r i . M s C a s a b u r r i .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .

20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O r D o c t o r C a s a b u r r i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I r e m e m b e r j a D o c t o r C a s a b u r r i ja .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : S o M r M b e b e w e n t t o c o u r t t o w a n t to
f o r c e t h e M in is t e r t o r e c o g n is e h is a p p o i n t m e n t .
happen.

W e ll t h a t d i d n o t

T h e c o u r t d e c id e d n o - o n e c o u l d fi ll t h a t p o s i ti o n u n t il t h e

M i n is t e r a n d c a b in e t h a d a p p r o v e d th e a p p o in t m e n t o f a C O O .

Page 58 of 179

S o it

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
n e c e s s it a t e d h a v i n g p e o p l e t o a c t i n t h a t p o s i t io n f o r q u i t e s o m e ti m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : M s M a b a n e h a d a c te d f o r q u i te s o m e
ti m e i n t h a t p o s it i o n .

L a t e r o n s h e w a s m o v e d to e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y a n d

o th e r d u t ie s a t S A B C a n d th e n H la u d i w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a c ti n g C O O .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . A n d d u r i n g t h is ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : I a m s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e i n te r v i e w s f o r fi ll in g in t h e p o s i ti o n o f C O O w o u l d
10

t h e y n o r m a ll y b e c o n d u c te d b y t h e b o a r d o r w o u l d th e y b e c o n d u c t e d b y
the GCEO or a panel appointed by the board or a panel appointed by
t h e G C E O ? W h o w o u l d c o n d u c t t h o s e i n te r v i e w s ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

Th e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r,

t h e C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r a n d th e C O O a r e p o s i ti o n s t h a t c a n o n ly b e
c o n fir m e d b y t h e M in is t e r th r o u g h c a b in e t.

S o t h e r e w o u ld b e a n

in t e r v ie w t e a m w h i c h w o u l d b e a p p o i n te d – t h e b o a r d w o u ld h a v e t o
a p p r o v e th a t i n te r v i e w t e a m .

Th e y w o u ld s i t t h r o u g h a s a p a n e l a n d

t h e n m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t o th e b o a r d a n d t h e b o a r d w o u l d
r e c o m m e n d to t h e M i n i s te r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o – s o t h e p a n e l w o u l d b e a p a n e l t h a t is

approved by the board?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t h a t p a n e l w o u ld m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o
the board?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n t h e b o a r d w o u l d t h e n – t h e b o a r d w o u l d n o t
h a v e a p p o i n ti n g p o w e r s b u t i t w o u l d h a v e r e c o m m e n d in g p o w e r s ?

It

w o u ld r e c o m m e n d t o t h e M i n is te r o r w h a t w o u ld b e t h e p o s i ti o n ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

N o a t t h a t s t a g e l a te r o n i t b e c a m e

w h a t y o u a r e d e s c r i b in g S ir. A t t h a t s t a g e t h e b o a r d w o u ld a p p o i n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

A n d t h e n r e fe r t o th e M in is t e r fo r

concurrence?
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
10

D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

A n d t h e M i n is t e r w o u l d r e f e r to

cabinet.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: F o r fi n a l a g r e e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t w a s t o b e m a d e b y t h e
b o a r d b u t th e b o a r d fo r t h e a p p o in t m e n t to b e e ffe c tiv e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y n e e d e d t h e c o n c u r r e n c e o f t h e M in is t e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e M in is t e r w o u l d t a k e th e n a m e t o th e c a b i n e t .
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n c o m e b a c k .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A n d n o w in r e g a r d t o I t h i n k y o u s a i d M r
M b e m b e is t h a t r i g h t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M r M b e m b e y e s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s in t e r v ie w e d b y a p a n e l t h a t h a d b e e n

approved by the board?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

And – and the panel recommended that he be

appointed?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e b o a r d a p p r o v e d t h a t h e b e a p p o i n t e d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t h e b o a r d c o m m u n i c a t e d w i th t h e Mi n is te r t o
10

s a y h e r e is t h e c a n d id a t e t h a t h a s b e e n r e c o m m e n d e d b y t h e
in t e r v ie w in g p a n e l w e a r e h a p p y w i t h h i m . W e a r e a p p o i n ti n g h i m b u t
w e a r e a s k in g y o u t o c o n c u r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n th e M i n is t e r t o o k l o n g to c o m e b a c k ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe never came back?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A c t u a l ly [i n d is t in c t] y o u c o m e b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?

Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.

But

f o r a lo n g t i m e s h e w a s n o t c o m i n g b a c k t o th e b o a r d .
20

D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E: S h e d i d n o t ta k e it t o t h e c a b in e t s o
there was no come back.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a s C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t y o u

w o u ld a t s o m e s t a g e h a v e a p p r o a c h e d h e r a n d s a y is t h e r e a p r o b l e m
and if you did what did she say?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o t h a t w a s b e f o r e o u r ti m e .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t w a s b e fo r e y o u ti m e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I a m s o r r y I th o u g h t i t w a s …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

During your time.

S o t h is is – t h is h a d h a p p e n e d

b e f o r e y o u c a m e in ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : S o w h e n y o u c a m e i n th e r e w a s s i m p l y – t h e r e
w e r e a c ti n g p e o p l e ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s in t h is p o s i t io n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h o w lo n g t h e p o s i t io n h a d

r e m a in e d v a c a n t m o r e o r l e s s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I w o u l d s a y p r o b a b l y t h r e e y e a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is q u i t e a lo n g t i m e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Q u i t e a l o n g ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n t e r m s o f th e – in te r m s o f t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e
b o a r d y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u f o u n d a n y th in g o r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
20

t h a t h a d c o m e fr o m t h e M i n is t e r t o te ll t h e p r e v io u s b o a r d w h a t t h e
p r o b le m w a s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o w e c o u l d n o t f i n d a n y s u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t w a s j u s t a s s u m e d t h a t t h e M in is t e r
had not wanted to appoint him.

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t w h e n y o u – w h e n y o u r b o a r d c a m e i n w a s
D o c to r M a ts e p e - C a s a b u r r i w h o w a s – t o w h o m y o u r e fe r r e d e a r li e r w a s
s h e s t il l t h e M i n is t e r o r w a s i t G e n e r a l N y a n d a w h o w a s M i n i s t e r w h e n
your board came in?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t w a s G e n e r a l N y a n d a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B u t t h e r e h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a c o u r t

d e c is i o n
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t t h e p o s i ti o n c a n n o t b e f il l e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: U n t il c a b i n e t h a d a p p r o v e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: I guess somewhere we have got those papers.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h a t in o r d e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , y e s w e w i ll m a k e t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . T h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 3 9 t h e n y o u d e a l w i t h
t h e e l e v a ti o n o f M r M o t s o e n e n g n o w to a p e r m a n e n t C O O p o s i ti o n .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

N o h e w w a s a l w a y s a c t i n g w h il e I

was there.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N :

O h I a m s o r r y c a n I j u s t – t h a t is m y

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 3 9 I c o u ld b e w r o n g .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d w h a t is – w h a t y o u s a y th e r e in p a r a g r a p h 3 9
[i n d is t in c t] 1 ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W h a t n u m b e r i s t h a t?
ADV THANDI NORMAN: 39 at page 10.
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

Ye s .

O h j a e l e v a ti o n t o t h e G r o u p

M a n a g e m e n t p o s i ti o n ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t w a s i n t h e o ff ic e o f th e C E O

that he got elevated.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN:

O h n o t – s ti ll n o t in t h e – n o t t h e C O O

p o s i ti o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o , n o , n o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : A lr i g h t o h s o r r y t h a t is my m i s t a k e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n h e w a s p u t i n th e o ffi c e o f t h e G r o u p C h i e f

E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r d o y o u r e m e m b e r e x a c tly w h a t h is ti le o r p o s i ti o n w a s
a t t h e t i m e i n th a t o ff ic e ?
D R B A LD W I N

SIPHO

N G U B A N E:

He was just a

manager for

S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O h th is p o s i ti o n o f S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a t i o n s m a n a g e r

w h ic h h e h e l d – w h i c h w a s t h e fir s t p o s i t i o n h e h e ld w h e n h e c a m e to
h e a d o ff ic e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s l o c a te d in th e o ff ic e o f th e G r o u p C h i e f

E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e n y o u d e a l i n p a r a g r a p h
4 0 a b o u t t h e M r M o ts o e n e n g a t t e n d in g b o a r d m e e ti n g s a n d c o u l d y o u
ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir h o w d i d th a t c o m e a b o u t ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e ll t h is h a p p e n e d w h e n w e h a d

d i ff ic u l ty w i th c o m m u n ic a ti o n s . S o t h e b o a r d d e c i d e d th a t w e n e e d e d a
p e r s o n w h o w i ll d o b o a r d c o m m u n ic a t i o n s .

B e c a u s e b o a r d d e c is i o n s

w e r e n o t b e in g r e p o r t e d c o r r e c t ly to th e s t a ff , t o g e n e r a l ly to p e o p l e i n
t h e S A B C . S o w e n e e d e d s o m e o n e w h o w i ll c a r r y o u t e x a c tl y w h a t w e
10

h a v e s a i d a n d g o a n d c o n v in c e p e o p l e a b o u t it . T h a t i s h o w w e c r e a t e d
t h is p o s i t io n o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n s P e r s o n f o r th e b o a r d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Ye s .

W h o s e r e s p o n s i b i li ty w a s i t to

c o m m u n ic a te t o t h e s t a ff fr o m w h a te v e r i t is t h a t th e b o a r d w a n te d to
c o m m u n ic a te d b e f o r e y o u e m b a r k e d o n in d e c i d i n g th a t M r M o ts o e n e n g
m u s t fi ll in t h a t – th a t s p a c e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e G r o u p C h ie f
E x e c u t iv e s o ffic e to d o t h a t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Ye s .

N o w w h e n y o u r s a y t h e n th a t w a s n o t

b e i n g d o n e p r o p e r l y w h a t e x a c t ly d o y o u m e a n ?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : W e ll w e d i d n o t h a v e – t h e b o a r d f e l t
t h a t w h a t e v e r i t d e c i d e d w a s n o t b e i n g c o m m u n ic a te d p r o p e r ly t o
p e o p l e a t S A B C a n d th e r e fo r e y o u h a d t h is c o n fl ic t u a l r e l a ti o n s h i p
p a r t ic u l a r ly w it h t h e u n io n s a n d t h e g e n e r a l s ta ff . T h a t t h e b o a r d f e l t
t h e y n e e d e d d ir e c t a c c e s s to t h e p e o p le .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . A n d t h e n d id y o u r a is e t h a t m a t te r w i t h

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t h e G C E O , t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r t h a t l o o k w e a r e n o t
h a p p y w i t h t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h y o u c o m m u n i c a t e th e b o a r d ’s m a tt e r s
t o th e s t a ff a n d w e b e li e v e t h a t w e n e e d t o h a v e s o m e b o d y e l s e t o d o
that.
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

W e l l H l a u d i M o t s o e n e n g – Mr

M o ts o e n e n g w a s a l r e a d y i n th e C E O o ffi c e d e a li n g w it h S t a k e h o l d e r
Relations.

S o it w a s a s i m p le m a t te r t h a t h e m u s t a ls o d e a l w i t h

S t a k e h o l d e r m a t t e r s f o r th e b o a r d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . S o t h e n h e g o t i n v i te d t h e n a c c o r d in g t o
10

w h a t y o u s a y – h e a t te n d e d t o t h e b o a r d m e e t in g s a t y o u r r e q u e s t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : W h a t w o u l d b e h i s r o le ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a i t I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e fo r e t h a t o n t h e fa c e o f i t it d o e s l o o k

s tr a n g e t h a t t h e b o a r d o n w h ic h t h e G C E O , t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u tiv e
O ff ic e r w o u l d b e s e r v in g – w o u l d n o t b e h a p p y w i t h h o w t h e ir d e c i s i o n s
a r e c o m m u n ic a t e d t o th e s t a ff . M a y b e l e t u s le a v e a s id e t h e u n io n s f o r
t h e ti m e b e i n g . B e c a u s e t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r is t h e C h i e f
20

O ff ic e r. H e o r s h e is in c h a r g e o f t h e w h o le s t a ff a n d o n e e x p e c t s th a t
h e is b e s t p o s i ti o n e d to c o m m u n ic a t e t o t h e w h o l e s ta ff w h a t e v e r
d e c is i o n s t h e b o a r d h a s ta k e n .

I d o n o t k n o w if y o u w a n t t o s a y

a n y th in g a b o u t t h a t – t o m a k e a n y c o m m e n t ? I t d o e s s o u n d s t r a n g e . It
s o u n d s li k e a v o t e i n n o c o n fi d e n c e in t h e G C E O .
DR

BALDWIN

SIPHO

NGUBANE:

We

Page 66 of 179

are

a b s o lu t e l y

correct

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C h a ir p e r s o n .

Yo u k n o w t h e r e w a s s u c h a l a c k o f tr u s t th a t th e b o a r d

s u s p e n d e d t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e t h a t is h o w h e l e f t S A B C /
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W a s t h a t s t il l M r M o k w e tl e o r w a s it s o m e b o d y
e ls e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t w a s M r M o k w e tl e
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M o k w e tl e j a .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w a s th e o n e w h o – w i t h w h o m t h e b o a r d h a d
la c k o f tr u s t a n d h e e n d e d u p l e a v i n g ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : Ye s th e C E O u n f o r tu n a te ly f e l l o u t o f
f a v o u r w i t h th e b o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d t h e b o a r d g o t r id o f h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t w o u l d b e fa ir t o s a y a n d p r o b a b ly t h is is w h a t

y o u h a v e s a i d b u t I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e I h a v e g o t i t r ig h t . Pr o b a b l y
20

it w o u l d b e f a ir to s a y t h a t t h e b o a r d ’s d e c is io n t o s h if t t h e
r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f c o m m u n i c a t io n t o M r M o ts o e n e n g e v e n t o th e s t a ff.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s a r e s u lt a t l e a s t i n p a r t o f th e b o a r d n o l o n g e r

h a v i n g f u l l tr u s t i n t h e C G E O . W o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o p u t i t t h a t w a y ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

And then you say – you say in paragraph 40 Doctor Ngubane that his
r o l e a t t h e b o a r d m e e ti n g s w o u ld – t h a t h e w o u ld n o t p a r tic i p a t e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : B e c a u s e h e w a s n o t a b o a r d m e m b e r.
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E : H e w a s – w h e n I m e a n p a r t ic i p a ti o n I
mean being part of the decision making.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t h e c o u l d g i v e a n i n p u t t o b o a r d
m e e ti n g – t o th e b o a r d m e e ti n g b u t h e c o u ld n o t b e p a r t o f th e d e c i s i o n
m a k i n g lik e v o ti n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . A n d m a n y a ti m e s …
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry I think Ms Norman.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n te r r u p t e d y o u r e a r l ie r o n I t h i n k y o u w e r e w a n t i n g to
g e t in t o h o w h e c a m e to b e a s k e d t o a t t e n d b o a r d m e e t in g s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

A n d h e m ig h t o r m i g h t n o t h a v e – D o c t o r e N g u b a n e

m i g h t o r m ig h t n o t h a v e a n s w e r e d th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : A n s w e r e d t h a t q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h a t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN: Oh yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n m a y b e t h a t i s b e c a u s e I a s k e d s o m e

q u e s t io n .

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

C a n y o u g e t b a c k to t h a t?

How did he come to be

in v i te d t o a t te n d b o a r d m e e t in g s M r M o ts o e n e n g ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : B e c a u s e w e ll i n m y v i e w a n d I – t h is
is t h e v ie w I c o n v e y e d to t h e b o a r d .

T h a t w h o e v e r i s g o in g to b e

c o m m u n ic a ti n g f o r u s m u s t k n o w p r e c i s e l y w h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t .
T h a t is h o w h e c a m e t o b e i n v it e d t o b e a t b o a r d m e e ti n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o – s o it w a s :
1 . To m a k e s u r e t h a t w h e n h e c o m m u n i c a t e s t o s t a k e h o l d e r s
10

w h a t e v e r t h e d e c is i o n s o f t h e b o a r d – w h a t e v e r d e c i s i o n s t h e
b o a r d m a y h a v e t a k e n h e w o u l d h a v e a fu ll u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e
c o n te x t o f t h o s e d e c is i o n s .

In order to have that he must be

p r e s e n t w h e n th e b o a r d is m e e ti n g .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E : P r e c is e ly S i r b e c a u s e y o u k n o w i n a
s i tu a ti o n l ik e t h a t y o u g e t a lo t o f f a ls e in f o r m a ti o n fl o a t in g a r o u n d t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n a n d e x a c e r b a ti n g w h a te v e r p r o b le m s .

S o t h a t w a s th e

m o t iv a t i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B u t a ls o y o u d i d n o t w a n t h i m t o b e a n o b s e r v e r a s

s u c h y o u w a n te d h i m t o b e a b l e t o p a r tic i p a t e i n d is c u s s io n s b u t n o t i n
d e c is i o n m a k i n g ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n j u s t fo ll o w i n g u p
o n t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s t io n – w o u l d t h e C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y n o t d o t h a t ?

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B e c a u s e if I a m a m e m b e r o f s t a ff a n d I h e a r t h a t t h e b o a r d h a s ta k e n a
p a r t ic u l a r d e c i s i o n t h e fir s t p e r s o n to m a k e th e e n q u ir i e s to – w o u l d b e
t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y a n d y o u s a y – c o u l d y o u j u s t c o n f ir m w it h m e a t
t h e m e e t in g t h a t th e b o a r d h e ld o n s u c h a n d s u c h a d a y d i d t h is t a k e
p l a c e , w h a t w a s t h e d e c is io n ?

Would that not have been the easiest

w a y o f c o n tr o ll i n g t h e s i tu a ti o n ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

W e l l I d o n o t t h in k t h e C o m p a n y

S e c r e t a r y w e h a d c o u ld h a v e m a d e a n y i m p r e s s i o n o n t h e g e n e r a l
workers on the unions at SABC.
10

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N :

B u t a t le a s t th e C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y w o u l d

h a v e c o m m u n ic a te d t h e d e c is i o n s o f th e b o a r d e ff e c ti v e ly b e c a u s e h e
o r s h e is th e o n e th a t r e c o r d s th o s e d e c is i o n s .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll p r o b a b ly b u t u n d e r th e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w e n e e d e d a d e d ic a t e d p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . T h e n c o u l d y o u j u s t e x p l a i n in p a r a g r a p h
– t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h o f p a r a g r a p h 4 0 t h e l a s t s e n te n c e . Yo u s a y :
“ H e w o u l d h o w e v e r n o t p a r t ic ip a t e i n b o a r d m e e t in g s
b e c a u s e h e w a s n o t a b o a r d m e m b e r.

I considered

h is a t t e n d a n c e n e c e s s a r y b e c a u s e I w a s o f t h e v i e w
20

it w o u l d e n a b l e h i m t o c o m m u n i c a t e a n d i m p le m e n t
t h e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y e ff e c ti v e ly. ”
S o i n o t h e r w o r d s i t w a s n o t ju s t a b o u t c o m m u n i c a t io n y o u a l s o
e x p e c te d h i m t o i m p l e m e n t t h a t p l a n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll le t u s p u t i t t h is w a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s .

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D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : I n o r d e r t o i m p le m e n t th e t u r n a r o u n d
it w a s i m p o r ta n t fo r th e b o a r d t o k n o w w h e r e t h e l e a k a g e s o f m o n e y
were.
SABC?

W h o w a s d o i n g w h a t i n t e r m s o f s y p h o n i n g m o n e y fr o m t h e
I t i s a lo n g s to r y C h a ir p e r s o n .

It is to d o w it h h o w t h e

c o m p u te r s w e r e m a n ip u la t e d b e t w e e n t h e s a l e s – th e y u s e d to c a l l –
h a v e a l a n d m a r k c o m p u t e r s y s t e m w h ic h r e c o r d e d th e s a l e s a n d p u t
p r o g r a m s o n T V a n d th e n t h e S A P w h ic h w a s t h e p a y i n g – p a y i n g
component of SABC.

T h e r e w a s a l o t o f m a n ip u la t io n a n d o v e r r i d in g

t h e c o n tr o ls in t h o s e – i n th o s e tw o s e c t o r s o f a d m i n is tr a ti o n .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : R E G I S T R A R : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : S o h e k n e w w h o w a s d o i n g w h a t le t
u s p u t i t t h a t w a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d m a y b e j u s t t o c o n fir m I th i n k t h e a n s w e r y o u

h a v e - y o u g a v e m e a b o u t t h e r o l e - M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s r o le a t t h e b o a r d
e ffe c tiv e l y q u a l if i e s th e th ir d s e n t e n c e i n p a r a g r a p h 4 0 w h e r e y o u s a y :
“ H e w o u l d n o t - h e w o u l d h a v e n o t p a r t i c ip a t e d in
board proceedings because he was not a board
m e m b e r. ”
20

I th i n k t h e a n s w e r y o u g a v e m e q u a li f ie s t h a t b e c a u s e y o u
s a y h e w o u l d t a k e p a r t in t h e d e l ib e r a ti o n , t h e d i s c u s s io n s …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: But not vote.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o th a t w o u l d b e t a k e - p a r ti c i p a t in g . S o t h e r e

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w a s s o m e p a r t ic i p a ti o n a l l o w e d t o h i m e x c e p t v o ti n g ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir ; a n d t h e n i f y o u m o v e o n
t o p a r a g r a p h 4 1 a t p a g e 11 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t l e t m e - le t m e g o b a c k t o th a t D r N g u b a n e .

U n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s w o u ld h e b e a l lo w e d to t a k e p a r t i n t h e
d is c u s s io n s ? W o u ld i t b e i f th e r e w a s s o m e th in g t h a t t h e b o a r d w a n t e d
t o b e e x p la i n e d b y h i m o r c la r i fi e d b y h i m o r w a s t h e s i tu a ti o n s u c h t h a t
h e to o k p a r t i n a ll d is c u s s i o n s n o r m a ll y li k e e v e r y b o d y w h o w a s t h e r e
b u t ju s t d i d n o t v o t e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Well

it

is

a

th in

C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e - w e l l l e t u s p u t i t t h is w a y.

d iv i d in g

line

H e c o u ld n e v e r

in tr o d u c e a r e s o l u ti o n o r a m o ti o n t o t h e b o a r d b u t h e c o u ld s a y t h a t
t e n d e r t h a t is g o i n g o n t h e s o a n d s o , s o a n d s o in t e r f e r i n g o r in v o lv e d .
I t w a s t h a t s o r t o f p a r tic i p a t io n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

T h e r e a s o n w h y I w a s t h in k i n g a b o u t i t is t o

w h a t e x t e n t i t m a y h a v e b e e n a c c e p t a b l e in t e r m s o f g o o d g o v e r n a n c e
t o h a v e s o m e b o d y t a k i n g p a r t i n d is c u s s i o n s a ll d i s c u s s i o n s e v e n i f h e
d o e s n o t v o t e w h o is n o t a b o a r d m e m b e r.

That - that is why I was

a s k in g t h a t q u e s t io n .
Is t h a t - is t h a t a n is s u e t h a t y o u m a y h a v e a p p l ie d y o u r m i n d

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t o i n o n e w a y o r a n o th e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: C e r t a i n l y C h a ir p e r s o n b u t i t s a i d t h a t
t h e n e e d m a y n o t ju s t i fy th e m e a n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H o w e v e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e w e r e d e a l in g w i th v e r y c r i ti c a l

is s u e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I n v o lv i n g p e o p l e ’s li v e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o m e p e o p le n e e d i n g t o b e c h a r g e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Yo u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o it - i t - w e - w e n e e d e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A s m u c h i n f o r m a ti o n a s p o s s i b l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

H m ; a n d h e w a s - y o u c o n s i d e r e d t h a t h e w a s th e

p e r s o n w h o c o u l d g iv e th a t - th a t …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t in f o r m a ti o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

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T h e n i n - a t p a g e 11

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
Dr Ngubane …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Paragraph

41

you

deal

w i th

the

in t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n th e u n io n s a n d M r M o ts o e n e n g .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o u ld y o u j u s t te s t i fy to t h a t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s . I a m j u s t d e s c r ib i n g o n e a s p e c t
of the work that he was doing.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u ld y o u ju s t t e s ti fy t o i t? S o t h a t
10

it is o n r e c o r d . Ye s . M e a n i n g ju s t t a l k i n g t o w h a t y o u s a y th e r e …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W h e r e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: In paragraph 41, yes.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s .

T h e r e w a s h u g e r e s is t a n c e t o

t h e tu r n a r o u n d b e c a u s e p e o p le f e l t t h r e a te n e d b y t h e t u r n a r o u n d . T h e y
d i d n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o l o s e t h e ir jo b s . Yo u k n o w. I n
a n y e n v ir o n m e n t w h e r e t h e r e i s r e s tr u c t u r i n g i t b e c o m e s a th r e a t t o t h e
workers.
S o t h e w o r k e r s h a d to b e p e r s u a d e d t o s e e th a t a ll th a t w e
w e r e tr y in g t o d o w a s t o s e c u r e th e S A B C a n d i n f a c t s e c u r e t h e ir jo b s
20

b e c a u s e a s l o n g a s th e S A B C i m p r o v e d it s f i n a n c e s c o n t in u e d t o w o r k
s o m e o f t h e te r m s c o n ta i n e d i n t h e G o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e lik e d r a s ti c
r e d u c t i o n in h e a d c o u n t w o u ld n o t n e c e s s a r ily h a p p e n .
I n f a c t w e u s e d t o t e l l t h e m i f w e g e t it r i g h t a n d p a y o ff t h e
lo a n t o N e d b a n k t h e n w e a r e fr e e fr o m t h o s e c o n d i ti o n s . S o p e o p le h a d
t o c o o p e r a t e . S o t h i s is o n e o f t h e s e s s i o n s w h e r e t h e s e t h i n g s w e r e

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being discussed.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d - a n d y o u s a y t h a t h e
w a s t a k in g i n s tr u c ti o n s d ir e c ti n g fr o m t h e b o a r d a n d a s w e l l a s fr o m t h e
G C E O a t th a t t i m e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

A t th e ti m e t h e G C E O w a s s t il l

f u n c t i o n in g . O h , n o , n o . T h a t ti m e i t w a s M r N ic h o ls o n w h o w a s a c t i n g
CEO.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s ; a n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 4 3 y o u d e a l

w i t h t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l ’s fi n d i n g s . Yo u d i d m e n t io n s li g h t ly a s t o w h a t
10

t h e A u d i to r - G e n e r a l h a d f o u n d .

Th a t t h e S A B C e m p lo y e e s w e r e

a c t u a ll y d o i n g b u s in e s s …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W i th t h e S A B C a n d t h e n t h i s w a s a m a tt e r
t h a t w a s b e f o r e S C O PA . C o u l d y o u j u s t b r ie f ly t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n a s
t o w h a t - w h a t w e r e t h e d i ffic u lt i e s t h a t a t th a t p o i n t y o u h a d w i t h
S C O PA b e c a u s e P a r l i a m e n t - A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l s a y s t h e r e is 1 4 0 0
e m p l o y e e s t h a t a r e d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i th t h e S A B C a n d t h e n w h a t a c ti o n
d i d y o u a s a b o a r d t a k e i n o r d e r to m a k e s u r e th a t w h e n P a r li a m e n t
a s k e d y o u t o a c c o u n t a s t h e b o a r d y o u w e r e a b l e to d e a l w i t h t h a t ?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e h a d t o s e g r e g a te t h e c a t e g o r ie s

t h a t t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l h a d d i s c o v e r e d a n d o f c o u r s e a l lo c a t e a c ti o n s
a c c o r d i n g t o t h e g r a v i ty o f th e s i t u a t io n .

Some people needed to be

d is c i p l i n e d . S o m e p e o p le n e e d e d t o b e r e p o r t e d t o t h e p o l ic e . S o m e
p e o p l e n e e d e d to b e f ir e d o u t r i g h t .
S o m e p e o p le w e r e a l r e a d y o n l e a v e - I m e a n - s u s p e n s i o n b u t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
c o n ti n u e d t o e a r n a lo t o f m o n e y. S o t h e r e w e r e m a n y a s p e c ts t o t h e
A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l ’s f in d in g .

W e h a d f a il e d f o r q u i te s o m e ti m e to d e a l

w i t h th is is s u e u n ti l w e a p p o in t e d t h e t a s k t e a m t h a t c o n ta in e d c o m p r is e d o f p e o p l e l ik e S u ll y M o t s w e n i , Tia a n O l iv i e r a n d m a n y o t h e r s
w h o w e r e e x p e r ts i n d i ff e r e n t a r e a s .
T h a t is h o w w e u l ti m a t e l y m a n a g e d t o d e a l a n d c a t e g o r is e t h e
p e o p l e a n d th e a c ti o n s th a t n e e d e d to b e t a k e n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h e n y o u s a y y o u h a d n o t d e a l t w i t h t h e is s u e f o r

s o m e ti m e a r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t n o t d e a l in g w i t h i t f o r s o m e ti m e
d e s p i te k n o w i n g o f it s e x i s t e n c e o r a r e y o u ta lk i n g a b o u t a s i tu a ti o n
w h e r e y o u d id n o t k n o w t h a t i t e x is te d a s a p r o b l e m a n d t h a t is w h y y o u
did not deal with it?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e - t h e r e w a s a p r o b le m b e c a u s e

t h e r e w o u ld b e a d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r in g b u t t h e r e w o u l d b e n o w i t n e s s e s .
S o w h e n w e g o to S C O PA a n d S C O PA s a y s w h a t h a v e b e e n d o n e w e
w o u ld n o t b e a b l e to g iv e d e fi n i t e a n s w e r s .

So we took - it was the

r e a s o n w h y w e n o w h a d t o h a v e a s p e c ia l t e a m w i th i n S A B C .
P e o p l e w h o k n e w e a c h u n i t - e a c h b u s i n e s s u n it t o c o m e a n d
20

d e a l w it h th e i s s u e s r e l a t i n g t o t h a t u n i t . P r o b a b ly C h a ir p e r s o n I c o u ld
s i m p l y p u t it a n d s a y th e r e w a s n o r e a l w il l a m o n g t h e m a n a g e r s t o d e a l
w i t h t h e is s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON: So that - that was the problem?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Because I am - I am just wondering why there would

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
b e a n y p r o b l e m s o f w i t n e s s e s in t e r m s o f p e o p le w h o w e r e s a i d to b e
d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i th th e S A B C b e c a u s e I m e a n t h e p a p e r tr a il s h o u l d b e
t h e r e a n d if th e y a r e l i n k e d to c e r t a i n c o m p a n ie s if th e y w e r e m e m b e r s
o f c l o s e c o r p o r a t i o n s o r d ir e c to r s o f c o m p a n i e s t h a t in f o r m a t io n is
o b t a i n a b l e - is e a s i ly o b t a i n a b l e .
S o - s o - b u t y o u s a y t h e r e w a s a p r o b l e m o f th e l a c k o f w il l
on the part of senior manager - managers to deal with the situation?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a n - a n

in t e r n a l a u d i t fu n c t io n …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t t h e in t e r n a l a u d it j u s t d i d n o t d o
it s w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t w a s t h e p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , h m . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir ; a n d t h e n th a t r e p o r t

a c c o r d i n g t o y o u w h a t s t a t e a t p a g e - p a r a g r a p h 4 4 p a g e 11 . I t w o u l d
m e a n t h a t i f t h is r e p o r t t h e - th e o n e th a t th e - t h a t Mr O li v i e r h a d
prepared as it appears at page 17. It is dated 20 November 2012. At
20

page 17.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

So it - it would mean that the board had

n o t - h a d n o t s a tis f ie d S C O PA’s r e q u e s ts f o r a t le a s t f o r a p e r i o d o f

Page 77 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
a b o u t t w o y e a r s . A m I c o r r e c t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h e n y o u d e a lt w i th t h e f a c t t h a t

M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d t h e ta s k t e a m t h e n th e y w o r k e d t o - t o p r o d u c e t h e
report that you - you find at page 17.

S o t h a t r e p o r t d e a ls w i t h w id e

r a n g in g m a t t e r s . A m I c o r r e c t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F r o m s t a ff m a tt e r s t o p r o c u r e m e n t is s u e s .
F o r i n s t a n c e i f I m a y ju s t d ir e c t y o u r a t te n ti o n to p a g e - p a g e 3 2
10

because:
“ T h e S A B C t o c o m p ly w i th r e q u ir e m e n t s o f Tr e a s u r y
R e g u l a ti o n s a n d a u d i t - A u d i t C o m m i t t e e Te r m s . ”
A n d th e s e a r e fi n a n c i a l m a t t e r s a n d a ls o if y o u g o t o p a g e 3 4 .
T h a t is w h e r e y o u d e a l w i th t h e s p e c i fic it e m n u m b e r f iv e :
“Procurement

and

c o n tr a c t

management;

c o m p li a n c e w i th p r o c u r e m e n t p o l ic y a n d c o n t e n t
c o m m i s s io n i n g a n d a c q u is i t io n o f p o l ic y ; in s t a n c e s
o f p r e m a t u r e p r o c u r e m e n t o r d e r i n g ta k i n g p l a c e
w i t h o u t a p p r o p r i a te le g a l c o n tr a c ts w i t h s u p p li e r s . ”
20

And then the other column has the:
“ T h e P r o c u r e m e n t o f c o n t e n t is b e in g m i g r a t e d t o
be

in

l in e

w i th

standard

Procurement

P o lic y

G u i d e l in e s a s d e fi n e d b y th e P F M A ; P r a c ti c e N o t e Tr e a s u r y Pr a c t ic e N o t e R e g u l a ti o n s 1 3 o f S u p p ly
C h a in

Management

and

th e

I n s t i tu t io n

Page 78 of 179

of

B id

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A d ju d i c a t io n a n d B i d E v a l u a ti o n C o m m i t t e e . ”
D i d y o u fi n d a l o t o f t h e s e m a t te r s w h e r e t h e r e w a s t o t a l
d is r e g a r d o f p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M o s t o f t h o s e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d c o m e
fr o m t h e p e r i o d o f 2 0 0 7 t o 2 0 0 9 .

M o s t o f t h o s e th a t is w h a t th e

A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l h a d d is c o v e r e d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d w e w e r e a tt e m p t in g to d e a l w i th
that.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n a n a s p e c t th a t y o u h a v e

a lr e a d y t e s t i fi e d t o a b o u t e m p lo y e e s d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i t h t h e S A B C t h a t
w e w ill f in d a t p a g e 3 5 C h a ir a n d a s i t e m n u m b e r s i x .
“ N u m e r o u s e m p l o y e e s w e r e fo u n d t o h a v e i n t e r e s ts
in c o m p a n i e s th a t c o u l d n o t b e s u p p o r t e d b y a
s ig n e d d e c l a r a ti o n o f i n t e r e s t f o r m s . N o c e n tr a lis e d
r e g is t e r

to

check

and

employees

have

d e c la r e d

employees

new

and

monitor

w h e th e r

th e i r i n te r e s ts .

c o m p r e h e n s iv e

a ll
For

d e c l a r a ti o n

f o r m s w e r e c r e a t e d ; e x t e n s i v e c o m m u n ic a t io n s . ”
20

T h a t d e a ls w i th f a il u r e to d e c la r e t h e ir in t e r e s ts b u t m o s t
i m p o r t a n tly is w h a t w e fi n d a t p a g e 3 6 i t e m s e v e n .
“ E x p e n d i t u r e m a n a g e m e n t : fr u i tl e s s a n d w a s te le s s
expenditure.”
A n d w h a t is t h a t a m o u n t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t a m o u n t is t h a t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: 2 2 1 2 0 - 2 2 1 2 0 0 0 0 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u s a y t h a t p e r i o d t o - p r e d a te s
your appointment?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

N o , n o , n o i t w a s b e fo r e .

It was a

h is t o r ic a l …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t - i t p r e d a te s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

O k a y.

Thank you.

S o t h e n t h is r e p o r t

t h e n w a s c o m p i le d I ta k e i t w i th a ll th e m a tt e r s t h a t y o u h a v e - t h a t i t
d e a ls w i t h .

T h e n i t w a s s u b m i tt e d to S C O PA .

W h a t w a s S C O PA’s

a tt i tu d e a f t e r th e s u b mi s s io n o f t h i s r e p o r t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h e y w e r e n o t c o m p l e te ly s a ti s f i e d

b u t t h e y t h o u g h t i t w a s a g o o d e ff o r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d b y t h e t i m e y o u l e f t t h e S A B C h a d
t h e r e b e e n p r o p e r c o m p l ia n c e w i t h t h e A u d it o r - G e n e r a l ’s q u e r ie s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S o m e m ig h t a s w e ll s t il l o u ts ta n d i n g

b u t in t e r m s o f l o s in g m o n e y th a t h a d s to p p e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w i n - i n r e g a r d t o th e y e a r s w h e n y o u w e r e

C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d d o y o u h a v e a r e c o l le c ti o n o f h o w th e
A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l ’s r e p o r t s l o o k e d li k e in t e r m s o f S A B C .
q u i te o k a y ?

W h e r e th e y

W h e r e t h e r e s ti ll s e r i o u s c h a l le n g e s th a t th e A G w a s

p o i n t i n g o u t o r i s t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e l l C h a ir p e r s o n t h e c h a ll e n g e s

Page 80 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
r e m a in e d

because

th e r e

was

management and the board.

not

real

fu ll

c o o p e r a t io n

between

Al t h o u g h t h e S A U h a d c o m e i n .

There

w a s a n A u d i to r - G e n e r a l r e p o r t . P e o p l e w e r e a w a r e t h a t s o m e a c t io n is
being taken.
S o m e p e o p l e w e r e i d e n ti f ie d w i t h t h e ir s c h e m e s o f s i p h o n i n g
m o n e y. Th e y w e r e r e f e r r e d to t h e p o l ic e . S o t h e r e w a s a n a w a r e n e s s
t h a t s o m e c o n tr o l is c o m i n g b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, b u t s t il l n o t - n o t s a t is fa c to r y.

Th e r e is s ti ll

s e r io u s c h a l l e n g e s ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o d e fi n it e l y n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and - and then we deal with the
m a t t e r f r o m - f r o m p a r a g r a p h 4 7 w h ic h y o u r e fe r t o a s :
“Of

an

a c c e le r a t e d

salary

a d ju s t m e n t

d iv is io n

w a n ti n g t o o r d e c id i n g t o r e v i e w M r M o t s o e n e n g ’s
s a l a r y. ”
C o u ld y o u j u s t te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e ?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
adjustments happening

Well

there

a t a s e n io r le v e l a n d

were

many

Human

salary

Resources

id e n t i fi e d Mr M o t s o e n e n g ’s p o s i ti o n i n t h a t c o n te x t o f a d j u s ti n g s a l a r ie s
o f a d j u s t in g s a l a r ie s t o c r e a te p a r i ty.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d - a n d b y s o d o i n g t h e n th e y w o u l d

h a v e - w a s th is a t th e t i m e w h e n h e w a s a lr e a d y a p p o in t e d a s C O O o r

Page 81 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h e p a r i ty h a p p e n e d w h e n h e w a s s t il l A c ti n g a s C O O ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e l l a lr e a d y i n t h e G r o u p C h i e f

E x e c u t iv e ’s O ff ic e t h e r e w a s s o m e a d j u s t m e n t b e c a u s e h e h a d c o m e i n
o n a p r o v in c i a l s a l a r y w h i c h w a s w e l l b e lo w t h e m a n a g e r ’s s a l a r y in
t h a t p o s i ti o n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

But then when he became Group

E x e c u t iv e t h e n t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r a d j u s t m e n t a n d t h e n w h e n h e b e c a m e
A c ti n g C O O t h e r e w a s th e n a n o t h e r a d ju s t m e n t .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll th e p o s i ti o n t h a t h e o c c u p i e d a s s t a k e -

s t a k e h o ld e r s - S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e r y o u h a v e s a i d it w a s a
p o s i ti o n t h a t d i d e x is t b e fo r e a l t h o u g h t h e p e r s o n o c c u p y in g t h a t
p o s i ti o n w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e b o a r d w o u l d h a v e b e e n
r e p r e s e n ti n g th e m a n a g e m e n t a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i t io n .
N o w o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d t h a t if M r M o ts o e n e n g c a m e
fr o m w h e r e v e r h e c a m e t o o c c u p y t h a t p o s it io n o r w a s a p p o in t e d t o t h a t
p o s i ti o n h e w o u ld e a r n w h a t is t h e r a t e f o r s o m e b o d y o c c u p y i n g t h a t
p o s i ti o n .
20

When you talk about an adjustment the way you talk it

c r e a te s t h e i m p r e s s i o n in m y m i n d a n d I j u s t w a n t to g iv e y o u a c h a n c e
t o c l e a r t h a t i f t h a t is n o t c o r r e c t .
I t c r e a te s t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t i t w a s s o m e th in g s p e c i a l t h a t
was done. Whereas I expect that there would be nothing special done.
S o m e b o d y c o m e s fr o m a c e r ta in p o s i ti o n , g o e s to ( i n t e r fe r e n c e w it h
m ic ) r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s t h a t a r e a t ta c h e d t o a c e r ta i n p o s i ti o n .

Page 82 of 179

That

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
p o s i ti o n e x is ts .

Th e y g e t p a i d w h a t a n y b o d y o c c u p y i n g t h a t p o s i ti o n

w o u ld b e p a i d .
O f c o u r s e y o u d i d s a y t h a t b e f o r e Mr M o ts o e n e n g w h o e v e r
w a s o c c u p y i n g t h i s p o s it i o n o f S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e r w a s
s p e a k i n g o n ly f o r t h e m a n a g e m e n t n o t f o r t h e b o a r d b u t I a m n o t s u r e
w h e t h e r ju s t a d d i n g t h a t p a r t o f s p e a k i n g f o r t h e b o a r d w o u l d
n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e r e q u ir e d t h e a d d i ti o n o f a n y m o n e y.
S o w h e n h e c a m e t o th is p o s i ti o n o r w a s a p p o in t e d d i d h e n o t
i m m e d i a t e ly a n d w h a t e v e r w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e t h e r a t e f o r t h i s
10

p o s i ti o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n p r o b a b ly i t is a m a t t e r o f
la n g u a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B u t i t d e s c r i b e s e x a c tl y h o w y o u

tr a n s l a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Fr o m a p r o v in c i a l s a l a r y s c a le l e v e l

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: To o n e a t H e a d O ff ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O k a y. S o - s o y o u s e e t h a t - t h a t la n g u a g e
m i g h t c r e a te t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t it w a s s o m e t h i n g s p e c i a l fo r h i m .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o . D e f in it e ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a s fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i f t h e p o s i ti o n w a s
s i m p l y t h a t a t t h e Fr e e S t a te h e w a s o c c u p y i n g a p o s i ti o n t h a t w a s f o r

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
a r g u m e n t ’s s a k e a t G r a d e 5 b u t a s S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a t i o n s M a n a g e r t h a t
p o s i ti o n i s a t G r a d e 7 - G r a d e 7 .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O b v i o u s ly h e m u s t e a r n t h e r a t e t h a t is a p p li c a b l e a t
Grade 7 …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t h a s g o t n o th i n g t o d o w i t h h i m a s a p e r s o n . I t
is s i m p ly t h a t a n y b o d y o c c u p y i n g t h a t p o s i ti o n m u s t e a r n t h a t s a l a r y.
Yo u - y o u u n d e r s ta n d ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I a g r e e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I a g r e e v e r y m u c h C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e u s e o f t h e la n g u a g e c o u l d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i t is n o t …
CHAIRPERSON: Give a wrong impression.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I a g r e e C h a ir p e r s o n .

U n f o r tu n a te ly

t h is t e r m - t e r m i n o lo g y c r e p t i n t o t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I n t o t h is w h o l e t h i n g .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h a t e v e r - w h a t y o u c a l l a d j u s t m e n t w a s

n o t h i n g m o r e t h a n t h a t h e w a s fr o m a c e r t a i n t i m e to b e p a id a t - a t a
r a te t h a t w a s fo r s o m e b o d y o c c u p y i n g t h e p o s i ti o n h e w a s o c c u p y i n g ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t b e f o r e t h a t w a s d o n e d id h e fo r s o m e ti m e

w h e n h e w a s a lr e a d y a t t h e H e a d O ff ic e - d i d h e fo r s o m e t i m e c o n ti n u e

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t o - t o b e p a i d a t th e r a te o f t h e p o s i ti o n h e o c c u p ie d i n t h e Fr e e S ta t e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u r e c a ll .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll I - I w o u ld th in k s o b e c a u s e

H u m a n R e s o u r c e s w o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e a n y tr a n s l a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

They

did

it

because

of

this

d is c r e p a n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n a n d t h e n

t h e r e i s s o m e th in g t h a t y o u m e n t io n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 4 7 :
“ I a m m i n d f u l o f th e f a c t t h e r e w e r e s a l a r ie s . I t w a s
not just him.

Th e r e w e r e o t h e r p e o p l e I w o u ld

imagine.”
B u t th e n y o u s a y :
“ S i n c e th e s e w e r e a d j u s t m e n ts o u t s i d e t h e n o r m a l
ti m e p e r io d s t h e b o a r d w a s r e q u ir e d t o s i g n o ff o n
t h e s e a d j u s t m e n ts . ”
What does that mean?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e l l t h i s w a s p u r e ly i n r e s p o n s e t o

t h e C E O s a y i n g M r M o t s o e n e n g h a s ju s t c o m e in . H e is g o in g t h r o u g h
d i ff e r e n t le v e ls v e r y q u i c k l y.

H e - s h e n e e d s s u p p o r t fr o m t h e b o a r d .

T h a t w a s th e o n ly r e a s o n w h y t h e b o a r d g o t i n v o l v e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

So

would

th is

relate

only

to

M r M o ts o e n e n g o r w e r e - w e r e t h e r e o t h e r p e o p le th a t t h e b o a r d h a d t o

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
s ig n o ff o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll I t h i n k Mr Ts ie t s i - I a m n o t t o o
s u r e b u t n o w I a m n o t t o o s u r e a b o u t th a t . L e t m e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o t c o m m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t n o t r e c a ll b u t t o y o u k n o w h o w fa r a p a r t t h e
t w o p o s it i o n s w e r e ?

T h e o n e t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g h e l d i n t h e Fr e e

S t a te a n d t h e o n e th a t h e h e l d a t t h e H e a d O ffic e a s S ta k e h o l d e r
10

R e l a t i o n s M a n a g e r.

D o - d o y o u k n o w h o w m a n y g r a d e s h i g h e r th e -

t h e la s t o n e w a s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r is it s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t r e c a l l b e c a u s e I
a m tr y i n g t o t h i n k …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t m a y b e s o m e o f t h e c o n f u s i o n a n d m a y b e s o m e

o f th e t h i n g s t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n s a i d m i g h t r e l a te t o t h e f a c t t h a t e v e n
t h o u g h h e m i g h t b e e a r n i n g a s a l a r y t h a t i s a p p r o p r ia t e f o r s o m e b o d y
o c c u p y in g th e p o s i t io n o f S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e r m a y b e h e h a s
20

ju m p e d q u it e a n u m b e r o f r a n k s a n d t h e r e f o r e t h a t is w h a t m a y a tt r a c t
a tt e n ti o n . Is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll c e r ta i n ly th e f a c t t h a t h e h a d

c o m e in a n d j u m p e d a n u m b e r o f l e v e l s . O b v io u s ly I th i n k th a t i s w h y
even the CEO was worried.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

H o w e v e r I t h i n k t h e i n f o r m a ti o n

w o u ld b e t h e r e i n d o c u m e n ta t io n fr o m H R …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A s t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: E x a c tly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To e x p l a i n e v e r y t h i n g ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I w il l t a k e t h e w i t n e s s

t h r o u g h t h a t d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

U n f o r tu n a t e ly

th e r e

was

ju s t

some

p r o b le m s w i t h th e n u m b e r in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o I p r o b a b ly d o s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n c e I a m f i n is h e d w i th t h e p a r li a m e n ta r y
records.
20

Thank you.

( C le a r i n g t h r o a t) s o r r y - e x c u s e m e .

Then you

s a y a c c o r d i n g t o y o u h e h a d j u m p e d a b o u t th r e e s t e p s in s a l a r y
c a t e g o r ie s h a v i n g c o m e fr o m a p r o v i n c i a l s c a l e t o G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e
s c a le .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s . I m e a n t h e d i ff e r e n c e s b e c o m e
q u i te s i g n i fi c a n t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I f y o u m o v e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o m e o n e i n d i ffe r e n t p o s i ti o n s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I n t o t h e n e x t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d i t s e e m s t h a t t h is w a s h o w
h e g o t t o o c c u p y th is p o s i ti o n o f S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e r.

It

s e e m s t h a t h e w a s j u s t - h e w a s ju s t id e n t i fi e d b y th e G r o u p C h i e f
10

E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r a s t h e r i g h t p e r s o n to c o m e a n d o c c u p y th is p o s i ti o n
a t H e a d O ff ic e w i t h o u t a n y a d v e r t is e m e n t s b e i n g m a d e e v e n i n te r n a lly
t o l o o k f o r p e o p l e w h o w o u l d a p p ly f o r t h i s p o s i ti o n a n d b e i n te r v i e w e d .
A m I c o r r e c t i n u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t - t h a t th e r e w a s n o
a d v e r t is e m e n t i n t e r n a l ly o f t h e p o s i t io n a n d o t h e r p e o p l e w e r e n o t
a l lo w e d t o a p p l y ? H e w a s j u s t id e n ti fi e d b y th e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e
O ff ic e r a n d h e c h e c k e d w i t h e it h e r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d o r t h e
b o a r d t h a t it w o u l d b e fi n e i f h e b r o u g h t t h a t p e r s o n a n d h e b r o u g h t th e
person.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H m .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t is s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I t i s w h a t o n e - o n e w o u l d c a ll a d

h o m i n e m . Yo u k n o w. W h e r e i t is s o m e t h i n g th a t is j u s t d o n e b e c a u s e
t h e p e r s o n is n e e d e d .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . A s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s i ti o n t h i s w a s q u i t e

a l lo w e d b y t h e p o li c i e s o f t h e S A B C f o r - f o r s o m e b o d y t o b e id e n ti fi e d
lik e th a t a n d t h e n to b e ta k e n t o a p a r ti c u l a r p o s i ti o n w i th o u t a n y
c o m p e ti t io n e v e n fr o m in t e r n a ll y.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s . O f c o u r s e w e h a v e G o v e r n a n c e
C o m m i t t e e , R e m u n e r a t io n C o m m i t t e e .

A l th o u g h I d o n o t h a v e th e

d o c u m e n ts b u t I a m q u i te s u r e t h a t w e n t th r o u g h a ll t h o s e s ta g e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s b e c a u s e i t d o e s s tr ik e m e - I m e a n w h il e o n
t h e o n e h a n d I - I c a n u n d e r s ta n d t h a t s o m e ti m e s t h e r e is s o m e b o d y
t h a t a p p e a r s t o h a v e c e r t a i n s k i lls a n d m a y b e q u a l i fic a ti o n s a n d m a y b e
s p e c i a l ta l e n ts t h a t y o u i d e n ti f y fo r a c e r t a i n p o s i t io n a n d i t m ig h t lo o k
lik e r e a ll y y o u k n o w e v e r y b o d y e ls e w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n .
Yo u d o n o t t h in k th e r e is a n y b o d y w h o m a tc h e s th e s k i ll s o r
q u a li fi c a t io n s o r e x p e r i e n c e o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n w h il e o n t h e o n e
h a n d o n e c a n u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h a t c a n h a p p e n b u t w h a t I a m t h in k i n g is
if th a t p e r s o n is s o g o o d . I f t h a t p e r s o n h a s s u c h s k il ls w h a t w il l y o u
lo s e b y a d v e r t is in g i n t e r n a lly ?

20

L e t h i m b e o n e o f th e c a n d id a te s b e c a u s e if h e i s s o g o o d h e
is g o i n g to b e a t a l l o f th e m a n d s t il l b e th e o n e w h o g e ts a p p o i n t e d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I agree

C h a ir p e r s o n .

However

u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h a t d i d n o t h a p p e n t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I th i n k i t w a s t h e p r e s s u r e o f th e

Page 89 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
s i tu a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t m a d e t h i s ty p e o f s e l e c t io n -

you know …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A p p r o p r i a te .
CHAIRPERSON:

H m , b e c a u s e it - i t d o e s o r i t c a n l e a v e r o o m f o r

a b u s e o f p o w e r. N o t th a t it a l w a y s w i ll b e a b u s e d . I t c o u ld b e g e n u i n e
and so on and so on …
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t d o e s le a v e r o o m t h a t i f I a m i n c h a r g e a n d I

k n o w t h e r e is a c e r t a i n p o s i ti o n a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o d o y o u a fa v o u r. I
c o u l d s a y n o , n o , n o . D r N g u b a n e h a s - is g o o d fo r t h is p o s i ti o n . I w il l
s a y h e m u s t ju s t c o m e - c o m e h e r e a n d y e t i f I d i d n o t d o t h in g s t h a t
w a y - I s a id l o o k h e h a s g o t g o o d s k i ll s b u t l e t u s - l e t u s a ll o w o t h e r
p e o p l e to a p p ly a n d I t h in k h e w il l e m e r g e v ic t o r i o u s a n y w a y.
T h e n i t e l i m in a t e s r o o m f o r - fo r a b u s e . O f c o u r s e i t m a y w e ll
b e t h a t t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n g o o d g r o u n d s o f u r g e n c y to - to a p p o i n t
a n d n o t t o fo ll o w c e r t a i n p r o c e d u r e s .
20

I am not sure but I am just

s h a r i n g w i t h y o u w h a t is g o i n g o n in m y m i n d a s - a s y o u g iv e t h e
evidence.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

No

I

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H m .

Page 90 of 179

-

I

concede

that

point

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

Thank you and

t h e n y o u - D r N g u b a n e t h e n y o u d e a l w it h i n p a r a g r a p h 4 9 w it h a n
a n n o u n c e m e n t th a t y o u m a d e a n n o u n c i n g t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s
g o i n g t o b e A c t in g C O O a s f r o m 1 5 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s th a n k y o u a n d t h a t p r o c e s s h a p p e n e d

in t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e D e p u t y C h i e f J u s t ic e h a s e x p l a i n e d t o y o u
w i t h o u t a n y a d v e r ti s e m e n t n o t h i n g s a m e a p p li e s t o t h a t p o s i ti o n ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e l l s o a n a c t in g p o s i t io n d o e s n o t

r e q u ir e a n a d v e r ti s e m e n t b u t i t ’s g o t t o b e a n n o u n c e d t o th e s t a ff w h e n
it h a p p e n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 f il li n g o f th e

p o s t o f C h i e f O p e r a t in g O ff ic e r s o t h e n Mr H l a u d i h a d b e e n a c ti n i n t h a t
p o s i ti o n a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a n a d v e r t p u b l is h e d o n 1 5 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 .
C o u ld y o u j u s t – I k n o w th a t p a r l ia m e n t a s k e d y o u a lo t a b o u t t h i s
a d v e r t a n d I’ ll t a k e y o u i n d u e c o u r s e t o t h o s e r e le v a n t tr a n s c r i p t s o f
p a r l ia m e n t w h e r e y o u w e r e a s k e d a t le n g t h a b o u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t a n d
t h e a d v e r t t h a t r e l a te d t o t h e – u lt i m a t e ly to t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f Mr
20

M o ts o e n e n g , d o y o u r e c a l l th a t e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u g a v e b e f o r e t h e a d
h o c c o m m i t te e o f p a r l i a m e n t ?
DR BALDWIN

SIPHO

N G U B A N E:

W e ll M o t s o e n e n g

was

o n ly

a p p o i n t e d a ft e r I h a d g o n e fr o m S A B C .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o I ’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e a d v e r t , t h e

a d v e r t t h a t – th e r e ’s th e i s s u e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

Page 91 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e q u e s t io n w o u l d b e w h e t h e r, a t t h e t i m e t h a t t h e

a d v e r t is e m e n t f o r t h e p o s it i o n w a s m a d e o r p u b l is h e d , w h e th e r y o u
w e r e s t il l C h a ir p e r s o n f o r t h e p o s i t io n o f C O O ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I w a s s ti ll C h a ir p e r s o n .

Yo u w e r e s ti ll C h a ir p e r s o n ja o k a y t h a n k y o u .

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Do you recall Dr

N g u b a n e w h a t w e r e th e r e q u ir e m e n ts o n t h a t a d v e r t f o r a p e r s o n w h o
w o u ld q u a li fy f o r th e p o s i ti o n o f C O O ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
10

W e l l I d o n ’t h a v e t h e a d v e r t i n fr o n t

o f m e b u t I d o k n o w th a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I ’ m s o r r y l e t ’s s e e if w e c a n f i n d i t , if i t

in … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Th e o n l y c h a ll e n g e is t h a t th e p a g e s , i f

y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e a b le t o f o ll o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e ’s a p r o b l e m w it h p a g e n u m b e r s ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e p a g i n a t io n it ’s a ff e c ts m y n o t e s

b e c a u s e n o w I’ v e a s k e d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll i f y o u - th e r e m ig h t b e a p r o b le m l ik e t h a t, if

you are able to

r e a d w h a t t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e a d v e r t o r t h e r e l e v a n t

p a r t s a n d s h o w th e a d v e r t t o D r N g u b a n e e v e n i f t h e r e ’s a p r o b le m w i t h
t h e p a g e j u s t s o th a t h e s e e s i t , th a t w o u l d b e fi n e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u if y o u c o u ld ju s t b e a r w i th m e .

M a y b e b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t , l e t m e a s k t h i s q u e s ti o n ,

a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t , w h e n i t c a m e t o t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ff ic e r,
t h e C F O a n d th e C O O I t h i n k y o u s a id th a t t h o s e a p p o i n t m e n t s w o u ld

Page 92 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
c o m e t o t h e B o a r d . S o y o u d id s a y t h a t i n r e g a r d t o t h e C O O y o u w o u ld
n e e d – t h e B o a r d w o u l d n e e d t h e c o n c u r r e n c e o f t h e M i n is t e r a n d th e
M i n is t e r w o u l d ta k e th e n a m e to t h e B o a r d . I t a k e i t t h a t , t h a t w o u l d b e
t h e s a m e p r o c e s s f o r a ll t h e t h r e e p o s i t io n s ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

S o s in c e t h o s e t h r e e p o s i ti o n s w o u l d b e f il le d b y th e

B o a r d , I ta k e i t th a t it w o u l d b e t h e B o a r d th a t w o u ld d e c id e o n w h a t
t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts w o u l d b e f o r a n y o n e o f th o s e p o s i ti o n s w h e n e v e r
t h e y w e r e v a c a n t . I n o th e r w o r d s , t h e y w o u l d s a y, o k a y i f w e a r e g o i n g
10

t o a d v e r t is e f o r t h e p o s it i o n o f G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u tiv e O ffic e r, w h a t a r e
w e g o in g t o l o o k f o r, w h a t a r e th e e s s e n ti a l r e q u ir e m e n ts , w h a t a r e t h e
r e c o m m e n d e d – I ’ m n o t s u r e i f i t ’s c o r r e c t t o s a y r e c o m m e n d e d
r e q u ir e m e n t s b u t w h a t s k i lls o r q u a l if ic a ti o n s w o u l d w e r e g a r d a s o n e s
t h a t w o u ld b e g o o d b u t a r e n o t e s s e n t i a l f o r th e p e r s o n t h a t w e ’ ll
a p p o i n t to h a v e , a m I c o r r e c t t h a t , th a t – i t w o u ld b e th e B o a r d th a t
w o u ld lo o k a t t h a t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s t r u e .

So that when the advert goes out it must have been

a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d t o s a y i t r e f l e c ts w h a t w e a r e lo o k in g f o r ?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , o k a y th a n k y o u .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

M r C h a ir m a n

m a y I b e g l e a v e t o h a n d u p t h e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e w h ic h i s m a r k e d
Exhibit CC32,

I’v e

a lr e a d y

opened

th e

is … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

Page 93 of 179

place

where

the

advert

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u a n d I ’v e a s k e d th a t t h e

w i t n e s s b e g i v e n a c o p y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Th a n k y o u . D r N g u b a n e i s t h a t t h e a d v e r t

t h a t w a s is s u e d i n r e l a t i o n o f t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e C O O ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Ye s , c o u ld y o u j u s t p u t o n r e c o r d w h a t th e

r e q u ir e m e n t s w e r e f o r t h a t p o s i ti o n , o r m a y b e w e s ta r t w i t h t h e k e y
10

a c c o u n t a b i li ti e s b e c a u s e t h a t b e c o m e s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s h e m a y a s w e ll m a y b e r e a d a ll th e k e y

a c c o u n t a b i li ti e s b e c a u s e I t h in k th o s e a r e t h e k e y r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s a n d
t h e n th e r e q u ir e m e n t s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u Mr C h a ir.

D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

“ T h e C h i e f O p e r a t i o n s O ff ic e r, k e y

a c c o u n t a b i li ti e s a s a m e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d a n d r e p o r ti n g t o th e
G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r w i th fu ll d a y - to - d a y o p e r a ti n g
r e s p o n s i b i li ty

fo r

the

e c o n o m ic

p e r f o r m a n c e o f th e S A B C .
20

content

and

p l a t fo r m

T h e s u c c e s s f u l c a n d i d a t e w i ll ,

e n s u r e m a t e r ia ls t o k e y p e r fo r m a n c e a r e a s t h a t is r e v e n u e ,
c o s t a n d q u a l i ty.

E n s u r e t h a t t h e c o r p o r a te s tr a t e g y a n d t h e

o p e r a ti o n a l p l a n s w o r k in t a n d e m a n d a r e g e a r e d t o w a r d s
p o s i ti o n i n g t h e S A B C t o b e i n g th e b e s t in [i n d is t in c t ] p u b l ic
b r o a d c a s t e r.

W o r k c lo s e ly w i t h th e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e

O ff ic e r a n d ta k e d ir e c t c o r p o r a te s tr a t e g y fo r t h e o p e r a t i o n a l

Page 94 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
g r o w t h o f t h e c o r p o r a ti o n in o r d e r t o i m p r o v e p r o f i ta b il it y a n d
q u a li ty o f t h e s e r v i c e o ff e r i n g . B u il d a d i g i t a l a n d n e w m e d i a
c a p a b il it i e s

o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n , l e a d

the

f u n c t i o n a l t e a m s a c r o s s t h e o r g a n i s a t io n .
relevant

degree/diploma

and/or

various crossR e q u ir e m e n ts , a

e q u iv a l e n t

q u a li f ic a ti o n .

E x te n s iv e b r o a d c a s t in g e x p e r i e n c e a t m a n a g e r i a l l e v e l , fi v e
y e a r s , a c o m m e r c i a l ly a s t u te e x e c u t iv e w i t h b r o a d r a n g i n g
experience

of

success

in

broadcasting,

w e ll

developed

n e g o ti a ti o n a n d r e la t io n s h i p b u i ld i n g s k il l s a t t h e m o s t s e n io r
10

le v e l.

E v i d e n c e o f h a v i n g s u c c e s s f u l ly e s ta b lis h e d n e w

b u s i n e s s s tr e a m s a n d e x p lo i te d t e c h n o l o g y r e l a te d m a r k e t
o p p o r t u n i ti e s .

The

a b i li ty

to

tr a n s l a t e

and

promote

the

in t e g r a t io n o f n e w b u s i n e s s o b j e c ti v e s i n to fi n a n c i a l h u m a n
c a p i t a l a n d o r g a n i s a t io n a l d e v e l o p m e n t c h a n g e s o n a n o n g o in g
b a s is . A d e m o n s tr a t iv e p a s s io n f o r p u b l ic s e r v ic e . Pr e fe r e n c e
w i ll b e g iv e n t o c a n d id a t e s fr o m d e s ig n a te d g r o u p s i n te r m s o f
t h e E m p lo y m e n t E q u i ty A c t a n d th e S A B C ’s e m p l o y m e n t e q u i ty
[i n d is t in c t] .

H u m a n c o m m u n ic a t i o n s h a s b e e n r e t a i n e d t o

h a n d l e a l l r e s p o n s e s , i n t e r e s te d p e r s o n s s h o u l d fo r w a r d t h e ir
20

a p p lic a ti o n s

q u o ti n g

r e fe r e n c e

S A B C @ h u m a n r e s p o n s e .c o .z a

or

number
fa x

086 245

94358
0724

to
or

a l t e r n a t iv e ly v i s i t w w w. h u m a n jo b s . c o . z a a n d u s e t h e s a m e
r e fe r e n c e n u m b e r to m a k e a p p l ic a ti o n s , c l o s in g d a t e 1 5
February 2013”.
T h e r e ’s a n o t e h e r e w h ic h s a y s ,

Page 95 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
“ I f y o u h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d a n y r e s p o n s e w i t h i n s i x w e e k s o f t h e
c lo s i n g d a t e , p l e a s e a c c e p t t h a t y o u r a p p li c a t io n h a s b e e n
u n s u c c e s s f u l , b r o a d c a s ti n g

for

to t a l c i ti z e n

empowerment

S A B C [ i n d is t in c t ] h u m a n c o m m u n ic a ti o n s 9 4 3 5 6 ” .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u , s o a t t h e ti m e w h e n th is

a d v e r t w a s p u b li s h e d o r e v e n c r a ft e d b y t h e S A B C , t h e y w e r e a w a r e o f
w h a t is i t t h a t t h e y w a n t e d a n d a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a s a s k e d y o u , t h e y
k n e w o f p a r ti c u la r s k i ll s t h a t t h e y r e q u ir e d b u t m o s t i m p o r t a n tly t h e y
w e r e a w a r e t h a t t h e y n e e d e d s o m e o n e w h o w o u l d q u a li fy p r o fe s s i o n a l ly
10

a n d h a v e a d e g r e e a n d d i p lo m a o r a n e q u i v a l e n t o f th o s e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

S o h a v i n g lo o k e d th e n , I’ m s u r e a t th is

a d v e r t y o u w o u l d h a v e s a id i t ’s n o t g o in g t o b e p o s s i b l e f o r H l a u d i t o
m e e t t h e s e r e q u i r e m e n ts … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr M o ts o e n e n g .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o r r y M r H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g , s o r r y.

Mr

H l a u d i M o t s o e n e n g t o m e e t t h o s e r e q u ir e m e n ts b e c a u s e h e d id n ’ t h a v e
a d e g r e e , h e d i d n ’ t h a v e a d i p l o m a a n d a t th e ti m e I th i n k h e d i d n o t
h a v e a m a tr i c a s w e l l .
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Ye s , s o y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e e x p e c te d t h e

S A B C t h e n , t o a p p o i n t h i m p e r m a n e n tly in t h a t p o s i ti o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Thank you and maybe just dealing with

t h a t is s u e , m a y b e I c o u l d j u s t d e a l w i th w h a t – y o u a ls o d e a l t w i t h t h a t

Page 96 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
is s u e b e f o r e p a r li a m e n t a n d m a y I ju s t fi n d o u t – b e c a u s e th e r e is a
p o i n t w h e r e p a r li a m e n t a s k e d i n r e l a t i o n t o a n a d v e r t a n d C h a ir I h a d
p l a c e d n e x t t o th e w i t n e s s a n o t h e r b u n d l e i f I m a y b e g y o u r l e a v e t o
lo o k a t E x h i b i t C C 2 9 .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Exhibit 29?

Ye s th a t ’s c o r r e c t . Th a n k y o u C h a ir, I’ v e

a s k e d t h e r e g is tr a r t o p la c e i t – i t ’s a l s o t h e r e , i t is h e r e C h a ir I p la c e d
it o n h is d e s k I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .

N o , n o it ’s t h e o n e m a r k e d

p a r l ia m e n t a r y tr a n s c r ip t s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

L o o k a t t h e e v id e n c e d le a d e r a n d l is t e n to h e r,

y o u ’r e b u s y s h o w in g h i m b u t h e ’s l o o k i n g e ls e w h e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, m a y I r e f e r C h a i r t o

p a g e 1 6 2 i n r e d , i t ’s p a g e 1 6 2 r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r in r e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll s h o u l d n ’ t y o u fi r s t te ll u s t h e d iv i d e r, w h a t

d iv i d e r n u m b e r ?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

O h I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , o h y e s y o u ’ r e q u i te

r ig h t C h a ir, i t ’s d i v i d e r n u m b e r fiv e .
CHAIRPERSON:

D iv id e r n u m b e r f iv e ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y th a t ’s a p in k o n e .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n i f y o u c o u l d j u s t t u r n to

page 162.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Page?

1 6 2 o r m a y b e b e f o r e j u s t t o i d e n ti fy j u s t

t o p u t i t in c o n t e x t , is it c o r r e c t t h a t , D r N g u b a n e I t h in k y o u ’ v e a lr e a d y

Page 97 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
m e n ti o n e d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t h i m fi n d i t fir s t , I d o n ’ t k n o w if h e h a s f o u n d i t .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Al r i g h t , 1 6 2 , i t ’s in r e d .

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

163?

162 yes.

Is i t p a r t o f th e r e p o r t o f t h e p o r t fo li o c o m m i t te e - a d

h o c c o m m i t te e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O n t h e S A B C B o a r d , o k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u , is it c o r r e c t t h a t y o u

t e s ti fi e d b e f o r e t h e c o m m i t t e e o n th e 1 3 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 7 , D r
Ngubane?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

W h e r e a r e y o u r e a d in g ?

I’ m r e a d i n g – i f y o u lo o k a t t h e v e r y fir s t

p a g e o f t h a t , a f t e r th e d iv id e r i m m e d i a t e ly t h e p a g e fo ll o w i n g t h e
d iv i d e r f iv e , t h a t p a g e w i ll b e m a r k e d 1 4 1 .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV

THANDI

NORMAN

SC:

Okay – oh yes.
That

page

is

–

th e r e ’s

p a r l ia m e n t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s t h e c o v e r p a g e f o r th e r e p o r t o f t h e a d h o c

c o m m i t t e e o n t h e S A B C B o a r d o f i n q u i r y c a n y o u fi n d t h a t p a g e o n 1 4 1 ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th a t ’s c o r r e c t .

Ye s o k a y a n d s h e w o u l d lik e y o u t o g o t o p a g e 1 6 2 ,

y e s o n t h e r e d n u m b e r s a t th e r ig h t- h a n d c o r n e r a t th e to p .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u , y o u a r e a s k e d a q u e s t io n

Page 98 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h e r e D r N g u b a n e a t p a g e 1 6 2 a lo n g – M r Wa g e n e r a s k e d y o u ,
“ N o I’ m n o t d i s p u ti n g t h a t y o u d o n o t h a v e s ig h t b u t I w a n t to
p u t i t to y o u , I ’ m t e l li n g y o u th a t t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u d i d n o t
c a r e a b o u t th a t r e p o r t , y o u d id n ’ t b o th e r t o r e a d t h e r e p o r t is
b e c a u s e y o u d i d n ’ t c a r e a b o u t t h e d a m a g e y o u c a u s e d th e
S A B C , w h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t ” ?
A n d t h e n y o u r r e s p o n s e – I’ m s o s o r r y I a p o l o g is e C h a ir
b e c a u s e th e p a r t a b o u t th e a d v e r t i s a c t u a lly o n t h e n e x t p a g e b u t
m a y b e th is is w o r th d e a li n g w i t h b e c a u s e it is in a n y e v e n t s o m e t h in g
10

t h a t w e a r e g o in g to d e a l w i th a n d t h e n D r N g u b a n e ,
“ I d id n o t c a u s e d a m a g e a t S A B C , I s a v e d th e S A B C , i t w a s
b a n k r u p t w h e n w e c a m e , t h e r e g u l a ti o n s w e r e n o t o b s e r v e d ,
e v e n t h e f i n a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts o f th e p u b lic s e r v ic e b r o a d c a s t e r
a n d p u b li c c o m m e r c ia l b r o a d c a s t e r w e r e n o t fi n a l is e d , i t w a s in
a mess.

W e s a t a r o u n d tr y in g to s to p t h e h a e m o r r h a g in g o f

money out of the SABC there was a huge theft going on the AG
f o u n d t h a t , i f y o u r e a d t h e A G ’s r e p o r t , s o d o n ’ t a c c u s e m e
f a ls e l y o f d e s tr o y i n g t h e S A B C ” .
A n d t h e n h e r e f e r r e d y o u th e n t o th e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r ’s r e p o r t
20

a n d h e s a y s , i t s p e a k s s p e c i fi c a ll y t o y o u r s e l f i t s a y s ,
“ T h e f o r m e r C h a ir p e r s o n [ i n d is ti n c t ] a c te d i r r e g u l a r ly w h e n h e
o r d e r e d th a t th e q u a l i fic a ti o n r e q u i r e m e n t fo r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t
t o t h e p o s it i o n o f C O O w o u l d b e a l te r e d t o r e m o v e a c a d e m i c
q u a li fi c a t io n s a s p r e v io u s ly a d v e r t is e d w h i c h w a s p u r e ly a i m e d
at

ta il o r

m a k in g

the

advert

to

Page 99 of 179

suit

Mr

M o t s o e n e n g ’s

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
c ir c u m s ta n c e s .

This

c o n s t i tu t e s

improper

conduct,

m a la d m i n i s t r a t io n a n d a b u s e o f u n j u s ti f ia b l e e x e r c i s e o f p o w e r,
that is what she is saying”.
And then your response was,
“ C o u l d y o u p r o d u c e th a t a d v e r t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o s u c h
a d v e r t t h a t I a l t e r e d , p l e a s e p r o d u c e it f o r m e ” ,
C o u ld y o u te ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e t h e r y o u fi r s t o f a l l y o u
w e r e e v e r a s k e d a b o u t th is a d v e r t a n d w h e t h e r y o u h a d a l t e r e d a n
a d v e r t p r io r t o y o u b e i n g c o n fr o n t e d w i th t h e q u e s t i o n b y M r W a g e n e r ?
10

D R B A L D IN G S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o it is n o t tr u e .

Ye s b u t w h e n , f o r th e f ir s t t i m e , d i d y o u

g e t t o k n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e a l le g a t i o n s th a t y o u h a d a c t u a l ly a l t e r e d a n
a d v e r t t o s u i t Mr M o t s o e n e n g ’s q u a l i fic a ti o n s ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

I never handled any advert

C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e r e – w h o s a i d th is t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r
b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s n o a d v e r t w h e r e I w r o te w it h m y h a n d a n d s a y, c h a n g e
t h is a n d c h a n g e th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r, b e fo r e is s u in g h e r r e p o r t

e v e r a s k y o u o r a ffo r d y o u a n o p p o r tu n i ty to s a y s o m e th i n g a b o u t
20

w h a t e v e r a l l e g a ti o n s h e m i g h t h a v e b e e n t o l d t h a t y o u w e r e r e s p o n s ib le
f o r t h e a l te r a t io n o f a n a d v e r t ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s s h e i n v i t e d m e t o a m e e ti n g a n d

I w e n t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

D id s h e r a is e t h is w i t h y o u ?

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S h e d id r a i s e t h is is s u e .

Page 100 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
CHAIRPERSON:

This was never put to you that there was an

a l le g a ti o n t h a t y o u a l t e r e d t h e a d v e r t – th e r e q u ir e m e n ts f o r t h e
p o s i ti o n i n th e a d v e r t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Chairperson I would have asked

e x a c tl y a b o u t w h a t I a s k e d , s h o w m e , s h o w m e t h e r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o s h e n e v e r r a is e d t h a t w i t h y o u ?

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

No.

W e ll a s fa r a s I r e m e m b e r.

A s fa r a s y o u c a n r e m e m b e r ?

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

J a b u t i f t h a t w a s th e c a s e I w o u l d

h a v e a c t u a ll y, a s I s a id to A d v o c a t e W a g e n e r, le t m e s e e t h e
r e p o r t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e a l t e r e d a d v e r t j a , a n d y o u n e v e r i n s tr u c te d

a n y b o d y t o a lt e r t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts i n th e a d v e r t o r a n y t h i n g li k e t h a t ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

N o C h a ir p e r s o n , w h e n w e w e r e

t a lk in g a b o u t h ir i n g a [ in d is ti n c t ] c o m p a n y, j u s t g e n e r a l d is c u s s i o n , I
think it was in the governance committee. My view was, the SABC had
a lr e a d y a p p o i n t e d a C O O w h o w a s t h e n f r u s tr a te d b y t h e c a b i n e t o r t h e
20

M i n is t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr M b e m b e ?

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s s ir, w h y d o n ’ t y o u j u s t t a k e t h a t

r e p o r t , I m e a n th a t a d v e r t i t a n d u s e i t , th a t w a s m y o n l y c o m m e n t
about this.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t w a s i n th e d is c u s s io n ?

Page 101 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

A t a B o a r d m e e t in g o r o u ts i d e o f th e B o a r d m e e t in g ?

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t i n t h e d i s c u s s io n .

I t h in k i t w a s g o v e r n a n c e c o m m i t t e e .

Ye s g o v e r n a n c e c o m m i t t e e .

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

Ye s I t h i n k s o b u t I s a i d m y v i e w

was we are going to now search for a search company pay money but
s o m e o n e h a d b e e n a p p o i n te d a t S A B C a s C O O .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e j u s t s o th a t o n e c a n u n d e r s ta n d th a t

s u g g e s t io n , w a s t h a t d is c u s s i o n , d i d t h a t t a k e p l a c e b e f o r e t h e a d v e r t
10

t h a t w e ta lk e d a b o u t e a r l i e r, t h e o n e t h a t w e h a v e s e e n a s fa r a s y o u
r e c a l l o r w a s i t a f te r, th a t d is c u s s i o n t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t , d o y o u
k n o w w h e th e r i t h a p p e n e d b e fo r e t h i s a d v e r t w a s is s u e d , th e o n e t h a t
we have?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

It happened before this advert.

I t h a p p e n e d b e fo r e t h e a d v e r t ?

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

Ye s I t h i n k t h is a d v e r t w a s d r a w n u p

b y a s e a r c h c o m p a n y, I’ m n o t t o o s u r e w h o d i d i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s b u t i n r e g a r d t o t h e a d v e r t t o w h i c h M r

M b e m b e h a d r e s p o n d e d b y a p p l y i n g fo r t h e j o b d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r
20

t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t w e r e i n t h a t a d v e r t a n d t h e k e y r e s p o n s i b il i ti e s
w e r e b a s i c a ll y t h e s a m e a s t h e o n e s i n th e a d v e r t t h a t w e d o h a v e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w.

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o s ir.

I have not seen that advert.

Ye s b u t w h a t y o u h a d s a i d b e f o r e t h is a d v e r t w a s

Page 102 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
is s u e d w a s th a t i n o r d e r to a d v e r t is e t h is p o s i ti o n t h e y m u s t s i m p ly u s e
t h e o n e t h a t h a d b e e n u s e d b e f o r e t o w h ic h Mr M b e m b e h a d r e s p o n d e d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Whether they did that or not, you don’t know?

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

I d o n ’ t k n o w.

Yo u j u s t k n o w t h a t t h i s is th e a d v e r t t h a t w e n t o u t

a n d y o u d id n ’t h a v e a p r o b le m w i t h i t?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

I m e a n t h e p r e v io u s B o a r d h a d

n e v e r h a d a p r o b le m w i th t h e a d v e r t [ i n d is t in c t ] .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C h a i r I ’ m g o i n g t o h a v e to – s o t h a t y o u

d o n ’t l o s e t h is p o i n t t h a t w e ’r e m a k i n g a b o u t t h e a d v e r t a n d j u s t d i r e c t
t h e w i t n e s s t o w h a t t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r, i n h e r r e p o r t , s a y s , w it h y o u r
le a v e m a y I j u s t p u t i t t o t h e w i tn e s s ?
CHAIRPERSON:

J a t h a t ’s f in e y e s d o t h a t j a .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

D r N g u b a n e t h e r e is a n o t h e r b u n d l e t h e r e

maybe without looking at it we can…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y M is s N o r m a n I ’ m s o r r y I ’ m i n t e r r u p ti n g y o u ,

b e f o r e w e m o v e a w a y fr o m t h e e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n D r N g u b a n e a n d M r
20

Wa g e n e r, y e s I’ m a ls o p a r tic u la r a b o u t n o t p r o n o u n c i n g p e o p l e ’s n a m e s
c o r r e c t ly, b e f o r e w e m o v e a w a y f r o m t h a t d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f
t h e m , a r e w e d o n e w i t h i t , w a s t h e is s u e l e f t w h e r e i t is ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o C h a ir it ’s ju s t b e c a u s e t h e a d v e r t

is s u e d t h e n , b e c o m e s m o r e p r o m i n e n t i n t h e o t h e r b u n d le .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

Page 103 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e o th e r b u n d le y e s w h i c h th e fi n d i n g s

o f t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y t h a t ’s fi n e .

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u , t h a t w o u ld b e a ls o Ex h ib i t 2 7

C h a ir a t p a g e 2 9 0 . Yo u m a y c l o s e th a t o n e D r N g u b a n e a n d o p e n t h e
o n e n e x t t o y o u , t h a t o n e , s o r r y a b o u t th a t .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Sorry what cover?

Folder number 10.

I t ’s a g r e e n f o l d e r.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h is is t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r ’s r e p o r t

e n t i tl e d w h e n g o v e r n a n c e a n d e t h ic s f a il .
CHAIRPERSON:

Has he found – have you found it Dr Ngubane?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

D iv i d e r n u m b e r 1 0 .

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r ’s r e p o r t a t p a g e 2 4 4 , t h e

n e x t p a g e y o u h a v e fo u n d i t a f t e r t h e d iv id e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

P u b li c P r o te c t o r ’s r e p o r t a f t e r th e d iv i d e r.

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:
20

Sorry what page?

I ’v e g o t th e P u b lic P r o te c to r ’s

report.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u ld y o u tu r n to p a g e 2 9 0 ?

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Sorry?

290.

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

O h o k a y, s o r r y I lo o k e d d o w n h e r e

Page 104 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
a lr i g h t , 2 9 4 ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

290.

290.

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o r r y.

H a v e y o u f o u n d p a g e 2 9 0 a t th e t o p ?

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s o k a y s h e w il l a s k a q u e s t io n o n t h a t p a g e .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n , t h is is t h e P u b lic

P r o t e c t o r ’s r e p o r t a n d t h i s is w h a t s h e s a y s ,
10

“ F ir s t o f a l l m a y b e y o u s h o u l d s t a r t w it h a p p o in t m e n t a s G r o u p
E x e c u t iv e s ta k e h o l d e r r e la t io n s a n d r e g io n s o f t h e S A B C .
6 .1 . 2 .1 ,

Mr

Motsoeneng

was

appointed

as

E x e c u ti v e

s t a k e h o ld e r r e l a ti o n s a n d r e g io n s S A B C s c a l e 11 5 a n d a to t a l
p a c k a g e C T C o f R 1 4 6 1 5 3 9 . T h i s fix e d t e r m c o n tr a c t w a s f o r
a p e r i o d o f f iv e y e a r s c o m m e n c in g o n 1 A p r il 2 0 11 a n d w a s
s ig n e d b y b o t h M r N ic h o l s o n a n d M r M o ts o e n e n g o n 1 A p r i l
2 0 11 .

Mr N ic h o ls o n a g a i n , i n e x p l ic a b ly o m i tt e d to i n s e r t th e

y e a r o n t h e d a t e w h il e t h e h a n d w r i t in g is s i m il a r o n t h e
c o n tr a c t
20

where

b o th

signatures

were

appended,

a g a in ,

a l t h o u g h th is r a is e s q u e s t io n s o f a u t h e n t ic i ty th e m a t t e r w a s
n o t p u r s u e d d u r in g t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . 6 . 1 .3 a p p o in t m e n t a s
a c ti n g C O O S A B C , a d v e r ti s e m e n t o f C O O ’s p o s i ti o n . 6 .1 . 3 .1
a c c o r d i n g to a c o p y o f th e a d v e r tis e m e n t r e c e iv e d fr o m
S p e n c e r S t u a r t th e S A B C ’s r e c r u i t m e n t a g e n c y, t h e a g e n c y
p l a c e d a n a d v e r t is e m e n t o n b e h a l f o f t h e S A B C i n t h e S u n d a y

Page 105 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
Ti m e s a n d C i t y Pr e s s o n 9 J u ly 2 0 0 6 f o r th e fi ll i n g o f th e
v a c a n t p o s i ti o n o f C O O w h ic h b e c a m e v a c a n t in 2 0 0 5 / 2 0 0 6 .
T h e a d v e r tis e m e n t i n d ic a te d u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g , q u a l i fi c a t io n s
t h a t t h e a p p li c a n t s h o u l d h a v e a n d a p p r o p r ia t e a c a d e m ic
b a c k g r o u n d p r e fe r a b l y p o s t g r a d u a te q u a l i fi c a t io n . In 2 0 0 8 a n
in t e r n a l

a d v e r ti s e m e n t

was

once

again

p la c e d

for

the

a p p o i n t m e n t o f C O O , th e r e q u ir e m e n t f o r a p p r o p r ia t e a c a d e m ic
r e q u ir e m e n t , p r e f e r a b le p o s t g r a d u a te q u a l if ic a ti o n a s p e r th e
a d v e r t is e m e n t in 2 0 0 6 w a s r e m o v e d a n d r e p l a c e d b y t h e
10

f o ll o w i n g . C o m m e r c ia lly a s t u te E x e c u t iv e w i t h b r o a d r a n g i n g
o p e r a ti o n a l t r a c k r e c o r d o f s u c c e s s i n b r o a d c a s t in g . 6 . 1 .3 . 3 ,
t h e s a m e i n te r n a l a d v e r t is e m e n t is m e n t i o n e d i n t h e p a r a g r a p h
a b o v e w a s c ir c u l a t e d o n T h u r s d a y 2 8 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 2 w it h t h e
c lo s i n g d a te b e in g 3 1 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 2 .

6.1.3.4, in reply to my

q u e s t io n s , M is s M o k h o b o , o n 1 2 J u n e 2 0 1 2 s t a te d th a t th e
S A B C c o m m i t t e d a n a c t o f fr a u d e r y a n d u tt e r in g i n c h a n g in g
t h e a d v e r ti s e m e n t f o r t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e C O O is s u e d i n A p r il
2 0 0 8 b y r e m o v i n g th e r e q u ir e m e n t f o r a c a d e m ic q u a l i fic a ti o n s
s o a s t o s u i t M r M o t s o e n e n g w h o is w i t h o u t q u a l if ic a ti o n t o
20

m e e t th e c r i t e r i a o f th e a d v e r tis e d p o s i ti o n . T h e a d v e r t is e m e n t
w a s a n e x a c t r e p li c a o f p r e v i o u s a d v e r t is e m e n t s d a ti n g a s f a r
back as 2006.

D u r i n g m y m e e t in g w i th M is s M o k h o b o o n 11

M a r c h 2 0 1 3 , M is s M o k h o b o in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f
t h e B o a r d in d ic a t e d t o h e r th a t s h e w a s n o t a l l o w e d t o c h a n g e
t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f t h e a d v e r t is e m e n t a n d t h a t it h a d t o g o

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
e x a c tl y a s t h e o n e i n 2 0 0 8 . M i s s M o k h o b o i n d ic a t e d t h a t th e
C h a ir p e r s o n w a s a d a m a n t t h a t h e d i d n o t w a n t t o s e e a n y
q u a li fi c a t io n s r e fl e c t e d in t h e a d v e r tis e m e n t .

T h is s e n ti m e n t

w a s e c h o e d b y A d v o c a te [i n d is ti n c t ] M a g l a te , f o r m e r m e m b e r
o f th e S A B C B o a r d . 6 .1 . 3 .6 , t h i s w a s d is p u te d b y D r N g u b a n e
w h o i n d ic a t e d t o m e o n 1 5 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 th a t t h e a d v e r tis e m e n t
h a d n o t c o m e b e fo r e t h e B o a r d f o r a p p r o v a l a n d it w a s
something that was done by management”.
I t h in k t h e n – I h a d t o r e a d t h a t b e c a u s e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d
10

a s k e d y o u a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r h a d a s k e d y o u a b o u t t h i s
is s u e o f a n a d v e r t .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e l l C h a ir p e r s o n , I m e a n t h i s i ts e lf

s t a te s t h e is s u e , t h e a d v e r t w a s c h a n g e d b y s o m e o n e i n 2 0 0 8 t h a t
a d v e r t n e v e r c a m e b e f o r e m e , i t w a s a m a n a g e m e n t is s u e .

S o I’ m

a b s o l u t e ly s u r p r i s e d th a t s o m u c h e m p h a s i s is p l a c e d h e r e b y M is s
M o k h o b o o n s o m e t h in g th a t n e v e r s e r v e d , I d i d n ’ t k n o w th a t t h is a d v e r t
h a d b e e n c h a n g e d , a l l I s a id w a s , w h y w a s t e m o n e y g o i n g t o s e a r c h
c o m p a n i e s b e c a u s e s o m e o n e is a p p o i n t e d o n a n a d v e r t f o r a C O O
p o s i ti o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d o y o u h a v e – n o w a t th e t i m e t h a t M r M b e m b e

w a s i n te r v i e w e d y o u r B o a r d w a s n o t i n p l a c e y e t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

S o y o u d i d n ’ t in t e r v ie w o r i t w a s n ’ t y o u r p a n e l t h a t

in t e r v ie w e d h i m b u t d o y o u k n o w w h a t – y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t
q u a li fi c a t io n s m a y h a v e b e e n r e q u ir e d f o r c a n d i d a te s w h o a p p li e d f o r

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h a t p o s i ti o n a t t h e s a m e ti m e a s h e d id , y o u d o n ’ t k n o w th a t o r d o y o u ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e ll p r o b a b l y I w a s n a ïv e

c h a ir p e r s o n , I a s s u m e d t h a t i f s o m e o n e h a d b e e n a p p o i n te d b y th e
B o a r d s u r e ly it w o u l d h a v e m e t a ll r e q u ir e m e n ts , y o u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , s o y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e k n o w n w h a t

r e q u ir e m e n t s w e r e t h e r e b u t y o u a s s u m e d t h a t t h o s e w o u l d h a v e b e e n
t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d a n d
t h e r e f o r e t h e y s h o u ld b e f in e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

O k a y n o w t h i s p a r t w h e r e , i n t h e r e p o r t o f th e P u b l ic

P r o t e c t o r s h e s a y s y o u in d i c a t e d to h e r t h a t s h e w a s n o t a l lo w e d t o
c h a n g e t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e a d v e r t is e m e n t a n d t h a t i t h a d t o g o o u t
e x a c tl y a s th e o n e in 2 0 0 8 , if I s t o p t h e r e , it m i g h t b e c l o s e t o w h a t y o u
s a i d e a r li e r o n b u t y o u m u s t j u s t t e l l m e i f i t’s n o t c l o s e . Yo u h a d s a i d
t h a t y o u s a i d in t h e d is c u s s io n s t h a t t o o k p l a c e a t th e g o v e r n a n c e
c o m m i t t e e m e e ti n g i n a g o v e r n a n c e c o m m i t te e m e e t in g y o u s a i d b u t a n
a p p o i n t m e n t – t h e r e is a c a n d id a t e w h o h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a p p r o v e d b y
t h e B o a r d a n d y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o Mr M b e m b e . T h e r e w a s a n a d v e r t
t h a t w o u l d h a v e g o n e o u t fo r – t o w h i c h h e r e s p o n d e d , th a t is t h e
20

a d v e r t t h a t s h o u l d b e u s e d b u t I u n d e r s t o o d i t , y o u a r e p u tt i n g t h a t a s a
s u g g e s t io n , a s a n i d e a in t h e d is c u s s i o n is th a t r i g h t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t c h a ir p e r s o n .

N o w w h a t s h e s a y s h e r e to t h e e x t e n t t h a t, t h a t ’s t h e

a d v e r t t h a t w a s u s e d i n 2 0 0 8 , t o th a t e x t e n t s h e m i g h t b e c l o s e t o
s a y in g s o m e th in g t h a t r e fl e c t e d y o u r a tt i tu d e , j u s t t h a t p a r t t h a t I r e a d ,

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
d o y o u w a n t m e t o r e a d t h a t p a r t s o y o u c a n ju s t s e e w h e t h e r i t
c o r r e c t ly r e fl e c ts w h a t y o u r a t ti t u d e w a s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S h e s a y s , t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r s a y s t h e f o ll o w i n g

a b o u t w h a t M is s M o k h o b o s a id t o h e r a t p a r a g r a p h 6 . 1 .3 . 5 p a g e 2 9 1
a n d i ts p a g i n a t e d b u n d l e a n d it ’s a t p a g e 4 8 o f th e r e p o r t o f t h e P u b li c
P r o t e c t o r, s h e s a y s ,
“ D u r i n g m y m e e ti n g w i t h M is s M o k h o b o o n 11 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 ,
M is s M o k h o b o in d i c a t e d th a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d
in d i c a t e d t o h e r t h a t s h e w a s n o t a ll o w e d t o c h a n g e th e

10

r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r t h e a d v e r ti s e m e n t a n d t h a t it h a d t o g o o u t
e x a c tl y a s t h e o n e i n 2 0 0 8 ” ,
N o w t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r s a y s M is s M o k h o b o s a id y o u s a i d to
h e r y o u ’r e n o t a ll o w e d t o c h a n g e i t, t h a t’s t h e p a r t w h e r e I s a y, m a y b e
w h a t s h e s a y s is c l o s e t o w h a t y o u m a y h a v e s a i d b u t y o u c a n in d i c a t e
w h e t h e r t h a t w a s y o u r a t ti t u d e , t h a t i t s h o u l d n o t b e a ll o w e d o r w h e t h e r
y o u s i m p ly s a i d , w h y n o t u s e th e s a m e a d v e r t t h a t w a s u s e d i n 2 0 0 8 ,
w i t h o u t s a y in g y o u a r e n o t a l lo w e d ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:
20

Well Chairperson I couldn’t have

s a i d s h e m u s t n ’ t c h a n g e b e c a u s e w e d i d n o t h a v e th a t a d v e r t in f r o n t o f
us.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o y o u m ig h t h a v e – y o u m ig h t h a v e s a id s h e

m u s t n ’t c h a n g e th e a d v e r t b e c a u s e y o u w a n t e d t h e s a m e a d v e r t t h a t
h a d b e e n u s e d p r e v i o u s l y s h o u l d b e u s e d a g a in ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

T h a t’s r i g h t , C h a ir t h a t ’s c o r r e c t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h a t ’s a s o p p o s e d t o g o i n g to s o m e o n e t o g o t o w r i t e a n e w a d v e r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s s o t h a t p a r t m i g h t b e c o r r e c t .

M is s

M o k h o b o i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s a d a m a n t t h a t h e d id n o t
w a n t t o s e e a n y q u a li f ic a t i o n s r e fl e c t e d i n t h e a d v e r tis e m e n t , w h a t d o
y o u s a y a b o u t t h a t p a r t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll I d o n ’t k n o w w h e r e s h e g o t t h is

b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o b a s is f o r g o in g i n to t h is d e t a il a t a l l .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u n e v e r s a i d t h a t?

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, M is s N o r m a n .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

C h a ir i t ’s n o w f iv e p a s t o n e .

O k a y l e t’s t a k e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t t h e n w e w il l

r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t tw o , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

C o u ld y o u g o b a c k C h a ir to th e Ex h i b it 2 9 ? T h e p a r li a m e n t tr a n s c r i p t.
20

D o c to r N g u b a n e m a y I j u s t r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 1 6 5 o f th a t e x h ib i t . T h e
la s t s e n te n c e fr o m p a g e 1 6 4 s a y s :
“Mr

Wanage[?]

further

this

is

what

the

P u b l ic

P r o t e c t o r s a y s i n v i e w o f y o u r s a la r y i n c r e a s e s
between yourself, Ms Mokhobo and whatever the HR
Report

was

saying.

The

a l le g a ti o n

Page 110 of 179

that

Mr

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
M o ts o e n e n g ’s s a l a r y p r o g r e s s i o n w a s ir r e g u la r i s
a ls o s u b s t a n t ia t e d i n t h a t Mr M o t s o e n e n g r e c e iv e d
s a l a r y a p p r a is a ls t h r e e ti m e s in o n e y e a r a s h i k i n g
h is

salary

as

E x e c u t iv e

Manager

Stakeholder

R e l a t i o n s fr o m 1 .5 m i ll i o n t o 2 .4 m i ll i o n . H i s s a l a r y
progression

on

a c t in g

C h ie f

O p e r a t io n s

O ffi c e r

c o n c o m i ta n tl y r o s e ir r e g u la r ly fr o m R 1 2 2 9 6 1 .0 0 t o
R 2 11 1 7 2 .0 0 w h ic h w a s a 6 3 % i n c r e a s e in t w e l v e
m o n th s a n d i n v i o l a ti o n o f p a r t 4 o f t h e S A B C
10

p e r s o n n e l R e g u l a ti o n s a n d S A B C p o lic y.

A c ti n g in

h i g h e r s c a l e a n d th is c o n s ti t u te s i m p r o p e r c o n d u c t
a n d m a la d m i n is tr a ti o n . ”
A n d t h e n y o u r r e s p o n s e w a s th a t th is w a s n o t c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u p u t a q u e s ti o n t o …
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m s o r r y – I a m s o s o r r y D o c t o r. D o c t o r
N g u b a n e t h i s is w h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r s t a te d i t is r e a d – i t w a s r e a d
o u t t o y o u b y M r W a n a a g e [ ? ] w h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e l l y o u k n o w I t h in k s h e t h o u g h t I
e n g in e e r e d t h is . I d id n o t . Th is w a s c o m i n g t h r o u g h H R – t h r o u g h t h e
20

C E O , I w o u ld n o t h a v e h a d a m e c h a n i s m t o c r e a t e t h i s a s C h a ir m a n o f
the board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s – l e t u s g o b a c k a n d y o u c a n i n d ic a t e w h a t y o u
k n o w a n d w h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Yo u a r e r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u d i d t e l l m e a lr e a d y t h a t t h e i d e a o f b r in g M r

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
M o ts o e n e n g in t o th e h e a d o ffi c e o f S A B C w a s t h a t o f t h e t h e n G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r M r M o k w e tl e I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e p e r s o n w h o
c a m e w i t h t h is i d e a t o y o u .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u s a i d o k a y t h a t is f i n e a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e
p o s i ti o n a f t e r h e g a v e s o m e m o t iv a ti o n w h ic h w a s t h a t th e s ta t io n –
r a d i o s t a ti o n w h e r e h e w a s i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e w a s m a k i n g m o n e y w h i l e a
lo t o f o th e r S A B C r a d i o s ta t io n s w e r e l o s i n g m o n e y. Is th a t r ig h t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s M r C h a ir m a n .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h e p o w e r to a p p o i n t s o m e b o d y t o t h a t p o s i ti o n

d i d i t li e w i th t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r a n d n o t w i t h t h e b o a r d
o r S t a k e h o ld e r R e l a t i o n s M a n a g e r o r d i d i t l ie w it h th e b o a r d ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t l i e s w i t h h i m . I t i s o n l y w h e n i t
c o m e s t o G r o u p E x e c u t iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : Th a t t h e b o a r d – t h a t t h e b o a r d g e ts
consulted.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d t h a t is – t h a t if f o r t h e t h r e e p o s it i o n s th a t
w e m e n t io n e d e a r li e r o r i s i t f o u r ?
20

C h i e f – G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e ,

CFO, COO was there a fourth one?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: C E O , C F O a n d C O O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So it was three?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Y s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A n d t h o s e t h r e e th e b o a r d h a s t h e p o w e r
t o a p p o in t s u b j e c t to t h e M i n i s te r c o n c u r r i n g a n d s o o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

But for the Stakeholder Relations Manager that

w a s t h e – w i t h i n t h e p o w e r o f t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w I a s k e d e a r l ie r o n w h e th e r y o u k n e w w h a t t h e

g a p w a s b e t w e e n t h e p o s i ti o n th a t M r M o ts o e n e n g h e l d a t t h e r a d i o
s t a ti o n i n th e Fr e e S t a t e a n d t h e p o s it i o n o f S t a k e h o ld e r R e l a ti o n s
10

M a n a g e r a n d I t h in k y o u d id s a y h e j u m p e d q u i t e a f e w r a n k s . B u t I d o
n o t k n o w i f y o u s a i d th r e e o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r i t w a s t h r e e o r
n o t b u t y o u k n o w h e ju m p e d q u i te a f e w r a n k s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e l l if I r e m e m b e r w e l l it w a s t h r e e .
Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d i n t e r m s o f w h a t t h e d i ff e r e n c e i n s a la r y

b e t w e e n t h e t w o p o s i t io n s n a m e l y t h e o n e in t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d t h e o n e
o f S t a k e h o ld e r R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e r d o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c t io n o f h o w
m u c h d i ff e r e n c e t h e r e w a s b e t w e e n th e tw o ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I …
20

CHAIRPERSON: More or less.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I d o n o t h a v e t h e a c t u a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Figures.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M e n t a l p ic tu r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t I k n o w th a t i t i s v e r y s ig n i f ic a n t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
d i ff e r e n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s a s ig n if ic a n t d i ff e r e n c e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s .

D i d y o u k n o w a t th a t ti m e w h e n M r

M o ts o e n e n g w a s – w h e n th e G r o u p C E O a t t h e t i m e w a n te d to a p p o i n t
h i m t o th is p o s i ti o n d id y o u k n o w w h a t th e r e q u ir e m e n ts w e r e f o r
s o m e b o d y to o c c u p y t h a t p o s i ti o n o f S t a k e h o ld e r R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e r o r
is t h a t s o m e th in g y o u d id n o t k n o w ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:
10

W e l l w h a t I k n e w w a s th a t th a t

p e r s o n w o u ld b e d e a l in g w i t h P r o v in c i a l S t a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E : A n d t h e m o t iv a ti o n b y t h e C E O w a s
t h a t h e h a d b e e n g o o d i n t h e F r e e S t a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d t h a t i s w h y h e w a n t e d h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . T h a t is a l l y o u k n e w ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h e p o s it i o n .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

20

T h a t is r ig h t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in te r ms o f w h a t h i s q u a l i fi c a t io n s w e r e a t w h a t
s t a g e d i d y o u g e t t o k n o w t h a t – w a s th a t b e f o r e h e c a m e t o t h e h e a d
o ffic e o r w a s t h a t a f te r ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E : W h e n h e c a m e t o h e a d o ffi c e n o - o n e
p a i d m u c h a t t e n t io n to h i s q u a l if ic a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :
SABC.

B e c a u s e h e w a s a lr e a d y w it h in th e

T h is a r o s e l a te r o n a n d t h e n w e s o u g h t i n f o r m a ti o n o n t h e

p e o p l e w h o e m p lo y e d h i m . I n f a c t Mr A l w y n p r o d u c e d a n a ffi d a v i t a s t o
why he had employed him.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h i s is n o w p e o p l e w h o e m p lo y e d h i m i n t h e Fr e e

Stare?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I n t h e Fr e e S t a t e y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : S o h e w a s t h e r e , t h e y f o u n d h i m fi t
10

w e w e r e n o t g o i n g to r e v is i t t h a t y o u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a t th a t t i m e w h e n y o u s o u g h t a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g

fr o m th o s e w h o h a d e m p l o y e d h i m w a s h e s t il l S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s
M a n a g e r a s y o u r e c a ll o r h a d h e b e c o m e a c t in g C O O ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H e h a d b e c o m e a c t in g C O O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d a t t h e ti m e h e w a s a p p o in t e d a c ti n g C O O I
w o u ld h a v e i m a g i n e d t h a t o k a y le t m e j u s t s t a r t b y t h is .

The

a p p o i n t m e n t o f a n a c ti n g C O O I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t is – t h a t f a ll s w i th in
t h e p o w e r o f t h e b o a r d , is th a t c o r r e c t o r … ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o h e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a p p o in t e d b y t h e b o a r d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: As acting COO.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I would have expected

th a t t h e b o a r d

before

a p p o i n ti n g h i m a s a c ti n g C O O i t w o u l d h a v e s o u g h t t o s a tis f y i ts e lf t h a t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
w h a t e v e r q u a l if ic a ti o n s o r r e q u ir e m e n t s t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n f o r th a t
p o s i ti o n th a t h e c o m p li e d t h e m i s s a t is fi e d t h e n , is t h a t r i g h t ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e ll u n fo r t u n a t e l y q u a l i fi c a t io n s d o

n o t c o m e in in t h a t ty p e o f d e c is io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t is a q u e s ti o n o f t r a c k r e c o r d
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d t h e le v e l i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

T h a t is h o w a c ti n g p e o p l e a r e

appointed. They must be at a certain level.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I n o t h e r w o r d s G r o u p l e v e l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e n t h e y g e t a p p o i n te d t o a c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a c ti n g C O O t h e

p o s i ti o n h e s t il l h e l d w a s t h a t o f S t a k e h o ld e r R e la t io n s M a n a g e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H e w a s a lr e a d y G r o u p E x e c u t iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t h o l d i n g w h a t p o s it io n ?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I n S t a k e h o l d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s M a n a g e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t w a s s ti ll m a n a g e r a n d n o t h i n g e l s e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

E x a c t ly.

m a n a g e r.

Page 116 of 179

He was no longer a

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H e w a s G r o u p E x e c u tiv e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

So he had m oved from being Stakeholder

Relations Manager and had gone higher up.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e r a n k i n g o f t h e p o s i t io n o f S t a k e h o l d e r

R e l a t i o n s M a n a g e r a n d th a t o f G r o u p S t a k e h o l d e r – S t a k e h o l d e r
10

E x e c u t iv e w a s t h e G r o u p S t a k e h o l d e r E x e c u ti v e i m m e d ia t e l y a b o v e th e
p o s i ti o n o f S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s m a n a g e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ve r y s i g …
CHAIRPERSON: Or there was any jumping there?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ve r y s i g n i fi c a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s a s ig n if ic a n t d i ff e r e n c e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d t h e o n e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s E x e c u ti v e
h a d i t a l w a y s b e e n th e r e b e f o r e ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : I t w a s a f u n c ti o n t h a t w a s w it h in th e

20

C E O ’s o ffi c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

S o – b u t n o t a p o s i ti o n a s s u c h ?

In

o th e r w o r d s w h e n y o u s a y i t w a s a fu n c t i o n I g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t
w h a t y o u m e a n is s o m e b o d y d i d t h a t f u n c t io n b u t t h a t p e r s o n m ig h t n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e b e e n g iv e n t h is ti tl e b u t i t m ig h t h a v e b e e n o n e o f h is
o r h e r r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s t o g e t h e r w i th o t h e r r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s ?

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D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I – i t is a – m y r e g io n a l m a n a g e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Regional Manager?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t is a c a te g o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t it w a s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c a te g o r y ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay that is what it was before – before Mr

M o ts o e n e n g o c c u p ie d th e p o s i ti o n .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

T h a t is r i g h t

S o – s o b u t y o u s a y t h e r e i s a s i g n i f ic a n t

d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h a t le v e l a n d t h e l e v e l o f S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s
Manager?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o p r o b a b ly l e t u s g o b a c k a b it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H e c o m e s i n a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Stakeholder?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M a n a g e r S t a k e h o ld e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I n t h e G r o u p
C H A I R P E R S O N : C E O ’s o ff ic e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: C h i e f E x e c u tiv e s O ff ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

H e t h e n g e t s p r o m o te d to G r o u p

E x e c u t iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is a b ig ju m p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Fr o m t h a t o n e o f b e in g m a n a g e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

A f t e r t h a t h e g e ts a p p o i n te d a c t i n g

COO.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is a ls o a n o t h e r b ig ju m p .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s , y e s .

O k a y w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d i s

b e f o r e h e g e ts a p p o in t e d a s G r o u p E x e c u ti v e fo r S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a id t h a t b e f o r e t h a t t h e fu n c t io n h e d i d – h e

p e r f o r m e d i n t h a t p o s i ti o n u s e d to b e d o n e w i th in th e o ff ic e o f t h e
G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n I s a i d th a t g iv e s m e t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t it
20

m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a p o s i ti o n o n it s o w n b u t i t m ig h t h a v e b e e n a t a s k
o r a r e s p o n s i b i li ty t h a t w a s d o n e b y s o m e b o d y w h o m a y h a v e h e l d a
d i ff e r e n t p o s i ti o n s o t h a t i s w h e r e w e w e r e .
correct?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ja .

Page 119 of 179

Is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I t w o u l d b e i m p o s s ib l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: F o r th e m a n a g e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: F o r S t a k e h o ld e r R e l a t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: To d o o t h e r j o b s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o – b u t th e S t a k e h o l d e r M a n a g e r t h a t o n e I

understand.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e I t h i n k y o u e x p la in e d e a r l ie r o n th a t b e fo r e

M r M o t s o e n e n g w a s a p p o i n t e d t o t h a t p o s i ti o n o f m a n a g e r th e r e w a s
s o m e b o d y e l s e b u t th a t p e r s o n w h o w a s p e r f o r m i n g th a t f u n c t io n i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t n o t th e b o a r d b u t t h a t a ft e r M r M o ts o e n e n g
c a m e i n I d o n o t k n o w if y o u s a i d y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t o
t h e o t h e r p e r s o n b u t t h e r e w a s o n ly o n e p e r s o n a n d th a t w a s
M o ts o e n e n g ?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w a t t h a t l e v e l I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d .
N o w I a m n o w g o in g to t h e le v e l o f G r o u p E x e c u t iv e S t a k e h o l d e r.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w M r M o t s o e n e n g w a s p r o m o t e d fr o m S t a k e h o l d e r
R e l a t i o n s M a n a g e r t o G r o u p E x e c u t iv e fo r S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a v e s a id th a t t h a t w a s a b i g j u m p . S o t h e
q u e s t io n I w a s a s k i n g w a s w h e th e r b e f o r e h i s a p p o i n t m e n t – b e fo r e h e
w a s a p p o i n t e d G r o u p s E x e c u tiv e fo r S t a k e h o ld e r w a s t h e r e s u c h a
p o s i ti o n ? Yo u r a n s w e r w a s s o m e – w e ll y o u r a n s w e r w a s th a t f u n c t i o n
w a s b e i n g p e r f o r m e d w it h in th e o ffic e o f th e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e
O fi c e r.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d my q u e s t i o n i s w h e t h e r a s f a r a s y o u k n o w a n d
10

y o u m ig h t n o t k n o w – a s f a r a s y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s s o m e b o d y
w h o h e l d a p o s i ti o n t h a t h a d a c e r ta in t i tl e o r w a s i t s o m e b o d y w h o h a d
a n o t h e r t it l e t h a t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s b u t
w h o s e r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s i n c l u d e d p e r fo r m in g w h a t M o ts o e n e n g la t e r
p e r f o r m e d a s G r o u p E x e c u t iv e S t a k e h o l d e r.

I hope – I hope I am

c la r i fy in g m y s e l f ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

But my understanding was that

w h o e v e r c o u ld h a v e b e e n d o i n g t h a t j o b h a d f a i le d h e n c e t h e C E O
20

w a n ti n g s o m e b o d y e l s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h b u t y o u – a r e y o u a b l e to s a y w h e th e r w h e n M r

M o ts o e n e n g g o t a p p o i n t e d a s G r o u p C h i e f – G r o u p E x e c u t iv e f o r
S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s t h i s w a s a n e w p o s i ti o n t h a t w a s c r e a te d it d id
n o t e x is t b e fo r e b u t th e jo b h e w a s g o i n g t o d o u n d e r t h is n e w p o s i ti o n
h a d b e e n d o n e b y s o m e b o d y e ls e u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t p o s it i o n , i s t h a t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e a b l e to s a y o r n o t r e a l ly ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

I am not too sure whether GE

S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s n e v e r e x is t e d . I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e j u m p fr o m S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e r to

G r o u p E x e c u t iv e S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a t i o n s a r e y o u a ls o a b l e t o in d ic a t e
w h e t h e r i t w a s a j u m p o f t w o , t h r e e , f o u r r a n k i n g s a s y o u a r e a b l e to
in d i c a t e e a r l ie r o n o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g – th e d e ta il t h a t y o u a r e n o t
able to remember?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I th in k …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u j u s t r e m e m b e r i t w a s s ig n i f ic a n t .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : I t h in k i t i s a j u m p fr o m a l e v e l o f s a y
1 .5 m i lli o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: To o v e r 2 m ill i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. T h a n k y o u . M s N o r m a n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a i r m a n . S o
in o t h e r w o r d s w h a t i s s t a t e d th e n in th a t p a r a g r a p h th a t I h a d r e a d
D o c to r N g u b a n e t h a t w o u ld c o r r e c t a t p a g e 1 6 5 ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h o s e fi g u r e s a r e t h e n c o r r e c t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . Th e n t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r
r a i s e s a n o th e r is s u e i n h e r r e p o r t a b o u t y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h e
a p p lic a ti o n f o r m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u m o v in g t o a n o t h e r a s p e c t ?

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To a n o t h e r a s p e c t y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : As p e c t j a . O k a y n o l e t m e th e n f in is h m a y b e o n t h is
one.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h a lr ig h t o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Now the appointment of Mr Motsoeneng as Manager

S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s t h a t w a s d o n e b y t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u tiv e
O ff ic e r.

N o w h i s a p p o i n t m e n t a s G r o u p E x e c u t iv e fo r S t a k e h o ld e r

R e l a t i o n s w a s t h a t d o n e b y t h e b o a r d o r th e C h ie f – G r o u p C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e ?
10

DR

BALDWIN

SIPHO

N G U B A N E:

I

th i n k

th e

C h ie f

E x e c u t iv e

r e c o m m e n d s t h a t t o t h e b o a r d . I a m n o t s u r e o f th e d e t a i ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

But it would not have happened

unless he recommended it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: To t h e b o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A n d a t t h a t ti m e i t w a s s ti ll Mr M o k w e tl e a s

y o u r e c a ll ? T h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M r M o k w e t le ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A s I r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o n d e r w h e t h e r th e b o a r d – o b v i o u s ly t h e b o a r d

w o u ld n o t b e I w o u l d i m a g i n e r u b b e r s ta m p in g w h a t th e G r o u p C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e s a r e – C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r r e c o m m e n d s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w o u l d a p p ly i ts m i n d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e q u e s ti o n , w o u l d th is b e a p r o p e r a p p o in t m e n t .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w o n th e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e b o a r d w o u l d d o

t h a t o n e is b o u n d t o t h e n a s k t h e q u e s ti o n h o w d i d y o u r b o a r d ju s ti fy
t h is

s ig n i f ic a n t

jump

in

the

p r o m o t io n

of

Mr

Motsoeneng

fr o m

S t a k e h o l d e r M a n a g e r t o – to G r o u p E x e c u t iv e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s
a t t h e s a la r y d i ffe r e n c e th a t y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d .
10

What was the

ju s t i fic a ti o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll t h a t h a v e b e e n o n p r e v io u s

p e r f o r m a n c e . H e s u c c e e d e d a s a S t a k e h o l d e r M a n a g e r. T h e r e w a s a
n e w c h a l le n g e a n d h e w a s s o u g h t t o b e a b l e to d o i t . J u s t l ik e g o i n g
fr o m th a t t o b e c o m i n g a c t in g C O O i t w a s n o t a m a t t e r o f q u a l i fic a ti o n s
it w a s a m a t t e r o f b e i n g a b l e to d o t h e j o b .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t .

I w o u l d t h in k th a t i f I a m

r u n n in g m y o w n p r iv a t e c o m p a n y a n d h e r e I h a v e i n m in d a s m a l l
c o m p a n y b e c a u s e t h e m o m e n t it is a b i g c o m p a n y a n d t h e r e a r e u n i o n s
and so on sometimes you cannot run it the way you want.
20

If I am

r u n n in g a s m a ll c o m p a n y o f mi n e – a p r i v a t e c o m p a n y y o u k n o w i f I
id e n t i fy t h a t h e y t h i s p e r s o n is d o i n g a v e r y g o o d j o b . I n e e d s o m e b o d y
t o d o th is a t a h i g h e r l e v e l .

I d o n o t n e e d t o a d v e r t is e o u ts id e I c a n

s e e s o m e b o d y i n s id e I c a n s a y o k a y t h is p e r s o n I w i ll p u t a t t h e h i g h e r
p o s i ti o n . B u t n o w h e r e o n e i s d e a li n g w i t h a m a s s iv e o r g a n i s a t i o n a n d
it is a s t a t e o w n e d e n t it y.

Page 124 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
1 . W h y w o u ld t h a t p o s it i o n n o t b e o p e n t o – w h y w o u l d t h e b o a r d
n o t s e e i t a s n e c e s s a r y to l e t t h e r e b e c o m p e ti t io n f o r f il li n g t h is
p o s i ti o n o f G r o u p E x e c u t iv e S t a k e h o ld e r R e l a ti o n s e v e n i f i t
t h o u g h t i t is l ik e ly th a t M r M o t s o e n e n g is g o i n g t o b e – t o e m e r g e
v ic t o r i o u s a s i t w e r e .

W h y w o u ld it h a v e t h o u g h t i t is n o t th e

r ig h t th i n g t o s a y le t u s a d v e r tis e ?

Yo u h a v e t h i s p o s i ti o n l e t

p e o p l e b e in t e r v ie w e d a n d t h e n le t u s ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll I p r e s u m e th e b a c k g r o u n d t o

t h a t is t h a t p r i o r e x p e r ie n c e is a c c e p t e d a s a d e q u a t e i f a p e r s o n
10

d e m o n s t r a t e s s p e c i a l k n o w l e d g e o r s p e c i a l c a p a b il i ty.

I t h in k th a t is

the reasoning that we went on.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t o f c o u r s e th e d i ffi c u l t y t h e r e i s t h a t y o u a r e

lo o k in g – y o u g e t s a tis f ie d t h a t t h e p e r s o n h a s p r io r e x p e r i e n c e th a t
y o u c o n s i d e r a d e q u a te b e c a u s e y o u a r e l o o k i n g a t a p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t g o i n g to t h i n k a b o u t t h a t i f y o u a r e a b o u t
p e o p l e t h a t y o u a r e n o t l o o k i n g a t . B u t i f y o u o p e n e d t h e c o m p e ti ti o n
h o w d o y o u k n o w t h a t y o u w o u ld n o t a c t u a ll y fi n d s o m e b o d y w h o
s u r p r is e s y o u a n d y o u m i g h t t h i n k M o ts o e n e n g i s s o e x c e p t i o n a l a n d
20

t h e n s o m e b o d y s a y s lo o k a t m y tr a c k r e c o r d , l o o k w h e r e I w a s b e f o r e I
c a m e h e r e ? I t is j u s t th a t h e r e a t S A B C I h a v e b e e n – I w a s a p p o i n te d
f o r t h is p o s i ti o n I h a v e n e v e r b e e n g i v e n a c h a n c e i n t h i s a r e a a c tu a lly
in t h e c o m p a n ie s w h e r e I h a v e b e e n I h a v e b e e n e x p o s e d to t h i s . L o o k
a t t h e w o n d e r s t h a t I h a v e d o n e t h e r e . I c a n d o t h is m u c h b e t te r t h a n
a n y b o d y.

H o w d o y o u k n o w th a t y o u w il l n o t g e t s o m e b o d y w h o s a y s

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h a t i f y o u o p e n i t u p t o c o m p e ti t io n ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

W e l l C h a ir p e r s o n I f u l ly u n d e r s ta n d

w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g h o w e v e r w h e n th e h o u s e i s b u r n in g a n y o n e c a n
p a s s a b u c k e t o f w a t e r a s lo n g a s h e c a n c a r r y t h e w a t e r. Th a t w a s a
s i tu a ti o n .

S A B C w a s b u r n in g w i t h a lo t o f d e g r e e d p e o p l e .

It was

b e i n g r e d u c e d to a s h e s . S o a n y o n e w h o c o u l d c a r r y a b u c k e t o f w a t e r
t o p u t d o w n – to p u t o u t t h e f ir e w o u l d b e a l lo w e d t o d o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t – in p r in c i p l e th a t I u n d e r s t a n d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I n p r i n c i p le th a t I u n d e r s t a n d b u t I w o u l d t h i n k th a t t o
t h e e x te n t t h a t y o u m a y h a v e b e e n d e a l in g w i th a b u r n i n g S A B C
a p p o i n ti n g s o m e b o d y e v e n if i t w a s M r M o ts o e n e n g a s a n a c t – i n a n
a c ti n g c a p a c i ty fo r t h a t p o s i t io n o f G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r
R e l a t i o n s w o u l d t a k e c a r e o f m a k i n g s u r e th a t s o m e b o d y w o u ld b e
d o i n g t h is jo b w h il e t h e fir e s a r e b u r n i n g b u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t
a p p o i n ti n g p e r m a n e n tl y y o u w o u l d h a v e t i m e to a d v e r t is e a n d h e w o u l d
b e o n e o f t h e c a n d id a t e s a n d t h e n w h a t e v e r d e c is io n y o u m a k e w o u ld
b e a d e c is io n t h a t c o u ld n o t e a s i ly b e c h a l l e n g e d b e c a u s e y o u w o u ld b e
s e e n t o h a v e b e e n f a ir. W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t?

20

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e ll I a g r e e C h a ir p e r s o n .

T h is i s

w h y f o r t h e p e r m a n e n t p o s i ti o n t h e r e w a s a n a d v e r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t fo r t h is w e d id n o t d o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u m e a n fo r t h e p o s i ti o n – p e r m a n e n t p o s i ti o n
o f G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e S t a k e h o l d e r s R e la t io n s ?

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e r e w a s a n a d v e r t f o r th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y e s . O k a y. S o it i s t h e a c t i n g a p p o in t m e n t th a t
w a s n o t a d v e r tis e d b u t t h e p e r m a n e n t a p p o i n t m e n t f o r t h a t p o s i t io n w a s
a d v e r t is e d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n .

Thank you.

D o c to r N g u b a n e t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r r a is e d a n o t h e r i s s u e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: At page 299.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Of Exhibit 27
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: 2 9 , 2 9 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 299 yes.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

I t h i n k t h i s w o u l d r e l a te t o t h e q u e s t i o n

t h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d a s k e d y o u a b o u t .

A t w h a t p o i n t d id y o u

r e a l is e t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g d i d n o t h o l d a m a tr ic c e r ti f ic a t e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
20

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Yo u r e c a l l t h a t q u e s t io n th a t t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n a s k e d y o u ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

S o i f y o u c o u ld g o D o c t o r

N g u b a n e to p a r a g r a p h 6 . 1 . 3 . 3 6 .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

Pr o b a b ly I a m o n th e w r o n g p a g e .

Page 127 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
S o r r y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 299.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: 2 9 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m y …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a r e y o u …
CHAIRPERSON: My 299 does not have those paragraph numbers.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ar e y o u o n t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t
C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s –
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n to p .
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on maybe I am not.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o I t h i n k I a m a t a w r o n g b u n d le .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o r r y. I t is Ex h i b it 2 7 . O n t o p i t w i ll
s a y – i t w il l h a v e R e p o r t o f th e P u b li c Pr o te c t o r.

Do you have it

D o c to r ?
CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Ngubane I suspect you and I were on a wrong
page.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u o n t h e r ig h t p a g e n o w ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll it i s 2 9 9 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE: And the top of it says And the issue
o f P u b lic P r o t e c t o r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No.

Page 128 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M e e ti n g t h e d e a d l i n e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O h n o y o u a r e o n t h e tr a n s c r i p t .

I beg

y o u r p a r d o n . N o I w o u ld lik e y o u t o g o t o t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r s R e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e b u n d l e t h a t h a s g o t t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r s R e p o r t
ja .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s a ls o o n th e s a m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n t h e tr a n s c r i p t. J a i t w ill n o t b e i n th a t
fi le D o c t o r N g u b a n e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a it w ill b e a d i ff e r e n t b u n d le .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h a lr ig h t s u r e . T h a n k y o u . O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A t p a r a g r a p h 6 . 1 .3 . 3 6

t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r s t a t e d :
“On

5

A p r il

2012

Doctor

Ben

Ngubane

the

C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d r e s p o n d e d i n w r i ti n g t o
q u e s t io n s I r a is e d i n r e s p e c t o f M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s
a l le g e d m i s r e p r e s e n ta t io n to t h e S A B C .

I n h is

w r i t t e n r e s p o n s e D o c t o r N g u b a n e s t a t e d t h a t th e
S A B C p e r u s e d M r M o t s o e n e n g ’s f il e a n d c o u ld f i n d
no

20

evidence

that

he

m is r e p r e s e n te d

h is

q u a li fi c a t io n s . ”
6 .1 . 3 .3 7 .
“ D o c to r

Ngubane

made

th is r e m a r k

despite

th e

fi n d i n g s o f th e 11 S e p te m b e r 2 0 0 3 G r o u p I n t e r n a l
A u d i t R e p o r t w h ic h in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e c o n te n t o f M r

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
M o ts o e n e n g ’s a p p l ic a t i o n f o r e m p l o y m e n t w a s f a ls e . ”
I f I m a y j u s t t o c o n c lu d e t h a t p o i n t b e f o r e y o u r e s p o n d D o c to r N g u b a n e
if y o u c o u l d t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e , p a g e 3 0 0 . P a r a g r a p h 6 . 1 .3 . 3 9 :
“ A d v o c a t e M a h l a te in d i c a t e d t h a t w h e n s h e tr ie d to
a s c e r t a i n d u r i n g t h e b o a r d m e e ti n g s w h e t h e r M r
M o ts o e n e n g h a d i n i ti a lly l ie d a b o u t h is q u a l if ic a ti o n s
w h e n h e a p p li e d to t h e S A B C s h e w a s s u p p r e s s e d b y
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w i t h th e s u p p o r t o f t h e m a jo r i ty o f
t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s a n d t h a t i t w a s n o t n e c e s s a r y fo r
10

t h e b o a r d to e s t a b l is h t h e t r u e f a c t .

Advocate

M a h l a t e fu r t h e r d r e w m y a t te n ti o n to t h e fi n d i n g s a n d
v e r d i c t o f th e a p p e a ls p a n e l o f t h e O m b u d s m a n t o –
f o r t h e p r e s s c o u n c il w h o i n te r a l i a f o u n d t h a t t h e
S u n d a y I n d e p e n d e n t w a s j u s ti f ie d in s a y i n g t h a t Mr
M o ts o e n e n g

had

l ie d

about

h a v in g

a

m a tr i c

c e r t if ic a te . A d v o c a te M a h la t e a ls o i n d ic a t e d t h a t s h e
h a d i n f o r m a t io n a b o u t h o w th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e
b o a r d h o u n d e d a n d t h r e a t e n e d t h e p r e v i o u s a c ti n g
C o m p a n y S e c r e ta r y o f t h e S A B C M s J a n e M b a t h e a
20

[ ? ] a n d in d ic a t e d to h e r t h a t s h e w a s n o t a l lo w e d t o
h a n d o v e r a n y i n f o r m a ti o n t o o u ts i d e r s . ”
S o i f y o u m a y j u s t g o b a c k t o th e f ir s t p a r t o f t h a t f in d in g if I m a y p u t i t
t h a t – b y th e P u b li c P r o te c t o r. W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h e n th e
P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a p p r o a c h e d y o u a n d a s k e d y o u a b o u t w h e t h e r Mr
M o ts o e n e n g h a d m is r e p r e s e n t e d h is q u a li fi c a t io n s ?

Page 130 of 179

What was your

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h a t q u e s ti o n w h e n y o u a n s w e r e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o
such evidence?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll th e H R R e p o r t t o ld u s th a t th e r e
w a s n o c la i m b y M r M o ts o e n e n g t h a t h e h a d M a t r ic .

M s P ip p a G r e e n

w h o w a s a B o a r d M e m b e r a ls o s a i d s h e k n e w t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g d id
n o t h a v e M a tr ic .

Th a t t h e p e o p le w h o e m p lo y e d h i m h a d m e r e ly

employed him knowing this fact …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
10

A n d t h is w a s t h e p o s i ti o n th a t w e

had.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n t h e a p p lic a ti o n f o r e m p l o y m e n t t o
w h ic h t h e y r e f e r t h a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g a p p a r e n t ly s u b m i t t e d t o t h e S A B C
I g u e s s w h e n h e w a s a p p ly i n g f o r e m p l o y m e n t f o r t h e fi r s t ti m e b e c a u s e
t h e y s e e m t o - t o s u g g e s t t h a t i n th a t a p p li c a t io n f o r e m p l o y m e n t h e
m is r e p r e s e n t e d t h e p o s i ti o n .
I - as I understand it he must have said - if they are correct h e m u s t h a v e s a i d h e h a s M a tr ic .
m is r e p r e s e n t e d .

20

I f t h e y a r e c o r r e c t in s a y i n g h e

H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n t h a t - t h a t a p p lic a ti o n f o r

employment?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I s a w t h e a p p l ic a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I t s a i d h e w a s d o i n g M a tr ic .

n o t s a y h e h a d p a s s e d M a tr i c .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It - i t s a i d h e w a s d o i n g M a tr ic ?

Page 131 of 179

It did

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a c e r t a i n ti m e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t d id n o t li s t M a t r ic a s …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A s a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a - a s a n e d u c a ti o n a l le v e l h e h a d …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
CHAIRPERSON: Passed?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got it here?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t - n o t o n th is b a t c h - o n - o n t h is f il e
M r C h a ir m a n , b u t - b u t I - I c o u l d ju s t r e fe r y o u t o w h e r e t h e P u b l ic
P r o t e c t o r q u o t e s w h a t is s ta t e d in th a t a p p lic a ti o n f o r m . T h a t w o u l d b e
a t p a g e 3 0 2 . S o r r y C h a ir. Ye s , t w o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 3-0-2 at paragraph 6.1.3.48.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

“ A c c o r d i n g t o th e p a n e l w h e n

M r L e s a l a w r o te t h i s o n 2 7 J u n e 2 0 1 7 h e w a s fu ll y
a w a r e a s h e h a d b e e n t o l d b y M r L o p a k a ( ? ) in
w r i t in g j u s t fiv e d a y s e a r l i e r t h a t t h e a p p li c a ti o n f o r
employment form did indeed exit and that it had
been

removed

in

2003

because

Page 132 of 179

it

gave

th e

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
i m p r e s s io n th a t M r M o t s o e n e n g p a s s e d S t a n d a r d
10.

W h a t m a k e s M r L e s a l a ’s d e n i a l e v e n m o r e

p u z z l i n g i s t h a t h e e v e n r e f e r t o h a v i n g r e c e iv e d
M r L o p a k a in q u ir y. ”
B u t t h e r e i s - t h e P u b lic Pr o t e c to r a c t u a lly r e c o r d s t h e
s y m b o ls . I f I m a y j u s t ta k e y o u t o th a t p a g e C h a ir. C a n y o u j u s t g e t
t h a t p a g e ? S o r r y. Th e y r e c o r d t h e s y m b o ls a s r e f l e c t e d o n th a t f o r m .
S o r r y. I w i ll - j u s t a h e a d j u s t n o w. I f y o u w i ll j u s t b e a r w it h m e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e ll p a r a g r a p h 6 . 1 . 3 . 4 5 w h i c h is a t p a g e 3 - 0 - 1

r e fl e c ts …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f o l lo w in g :
“The panel …”
T h a t is I t h i n k t h e A p p e a l P a n e l.
“ … n o t e d t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g s a i d t h a t a f t e r h e h a d
a g a in b e e n r e f u s e d a p p o i n t m e n t b y th e R e g io n a l
E d it o r i n B l o e m f o n t e i n w h o t o l d h i m a n d I q u o t e : “ I
a m n o t g o i n g to a p p o in t y o u b e c a u s e y o u d o n o t
h a v e M a t r i c . ” H e w a s a s k e d b y o th e r p e o p l e t o f il l

20

in t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r m w h ic h h e d i d . H e w a s th e n
appointed.

M r M o t s o e n e n g d i d n o t d is p u t e t h a t h e

h a d w r i t t e n 1 0 i n th e s p a c e f o r h i g h e s t s ta n d a r d
p a s s e d o r t h a t h e h a d w r i tt e n t h e s u b je c t s a n d t h e
s y m b o ls o r t h e d a t e w h e n h e c l a i m e d t o h a v e
passed Standard 10.”

Page 133 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t h a v e b e e n l o o k in g f o r t h a t o n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u f o r
that but the one I am looking for …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is a t p a g e 2 9 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: 2-0-9?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Tw o - 2 - 9 - 6 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 2-9-6.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y. W h a t p a g e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Tw o - 2 - 9 - 6 D r N g u b a n e .

I beg your

pardon.
CHAIRPERSON: 2-9-0.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 296.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: 2 - 9 … ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

2-9-6.

The same - same bundle.

y o u f o u n d it - 2 - 9 - 6 ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Have you found it Dr Ngubane?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a , I h a v e fo u n d i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u f o u n d i t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I th in k I h a v e f o u n d i t .

Page 134 of 179

Have

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h , t h a n k y o u . Ye s . I t i s - i t is p a r a g r a p h
6 .1 . 3 .2 0 :
“ A t t a c h e d t o t h e c o m p l a in t fr o m M s M b a n i ( ? ) w a s
an

a p p l ic a t i o n

for

e m p lo y m e n t

c o m p le t e d

by

M r M o ts o e n e n g . ”
6 .1 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you not say we must go to page …
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON: 2-9-0?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J u s t c o m e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 - 9 - 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 2-9-6?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 - 9 - s o r r y. T h a n k y o u . Th e n 6 . 1 . 3 . 2 1 :
“On

the

c o m p l e te d

a p p l ic a ti o n

M r M o ts o e n e n g

in d i c a t e d t h a t h e p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 i n 1 9 9 1 a t t h e
20

age

of

23

years

w i th

the

f o l l o w in g

s u b j e c ts :

E n g l is h , E ; S o u th S o t h o , E ; A f r ik a a n s , E ; B i b s , E ;
H i s t o r y, F. ”
A n d t h e n t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r s a y s :
“On

th e

a p p l ic a ti o n

form

that

M r M o ts o e n e n g

c o m p le t e d h e o n l y n o t e d f iv e s u b j e c ts c o m p le t e d

Page 135 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
and

not the usual six.

M r M o ts o e n e n g

a d m it t e d

During

th e i n t e r v ie w

fa ls if y i n g

his

M a t r ic

q u a li fi c a t io n a n d b la m e d a n M s S w a n e p o e l w h o m h e
s a i d g a v e h i m t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r m t o f i ll - t o f ill i n
a n y th in g .

I n o t h e r w o r d s t o m a k e u p th e s y m b o l s

fr o m t h e t o p o f h is h e a d w h ic h h e d id . W i t h r e g a r d
t o t h e M a tr ic C e r t if ic a te t h e fo r m s a y s o u ts t a n d in g
g iv i n g t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e c e r ti fi c a t e e x i s ts a n d
w o u ld b e s u b m i t t e d i n d u e c o u r s e .
10

A copy of a

tr a n s c r ip t o f t h e i n t e r v i e w h e l d w i th M r M o ts o e n e n g
o n 1 9 J u ly 2 0 1 3 w i t h m e is a n n e x e d t o t h e r e p o r t.
B e lo w i s a n e x tr a c t fr o m t h e t r a n s c r i p t . ”
N o w w it h t h i s i n f o r m a ti o n n o w b e i n g p la c e d b e f o r e y o u b y th e
P u b l ic Pr o te c to r D r N g u b a n e w o u ld y o u s t il l s a y th a t t h e r e w a s n o
e v i d e n c e t h e n o f m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n ? S u p p o s i n g t h a t y o u w e r e a w a r e o f
t h is i n fo r m a ti o n a t t h e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e a s k e d t o c o m m e n t a n d n o w
it is p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u n o w. W h a t w o u ld y o u r c o m m e n t b e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll I w i ll g o w i th t h e - Mr A l w y n ’s

a ffi d a v i t . Th a t t h e y k n e w h e d id n o t h a v e a M a tr ic C e r ti f ic a te b u t th e y
20

a p p o i n t e d h i m a ll t h e s a m e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B e c a u s e o f t h e s e r v ic e th a t h e w a s

r e n d e r in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t to m e s u m s u p t h e a t ti t u d e o f

Page 136 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h e b o a r d i n a d v a n c i n g M r M o ts o e n e n g to t h e A c ti n g p o s i t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I f fo r e x a m p le M r M o ts o e n e n g a s h e
h a s a d m i t t e d t o t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r h a d a c t u a ll y p u t i n s y m b o ls - l e t u s
s a y e v e r y b o d y k n e w th a t h e d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o i f h e d i d n o t h a v e M a t r ic a l l t h a t h e

n e e d e d t o d o o n h is a p p lic a ti o n fo r m w a s t o s a y m y q u a l i fic a ti o n s
S t a n d a r d 8 b u t t h e n w h e n h e - i f h e g o e s b e y o n d a n d p u ts - a n d p u ts i n
s y m b o ls a n d s u b j e c t s o n a n a p p l ic a ti o n f o r m w o u ld y o u r e g a r d th a t a s
10

m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o r w o u l d y o u fe e l t h a t b e c a u s e h e d o e s n o t h a v e t h e
M a tr ic i t r e a l ly d o e s n o t m a t t e r t h a t h e h a d p u t i n th o s e s y m b o ls ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

N o t h e is s u e o f s y m b o l s d i d n o t

a r i s e . A s I s a y I a m tr y i n g t o lo o k f o r w h a t Mr A lw y n s a id b e c a u s e t h a t
is w h a t I h a v e - s o r t o f i n fl u e n c e d u s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I n o u r v ie w.

I c a n n o t fi n d h i m h e r e

but …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is m i g h t h e l p w h il e y o u a r e l o o k in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is m i g h t h e l p . W h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g f o r is i t w h e r e
y o u s a y s o m e b o d y p u t u p a n a ff i d a v i t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e a ff i d a v i t w a s t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t t h e y k n e w t h a t
h e d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic a n d t h e y a p p o in t e d h i m f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

H e h a d n o - h e h a d n o M a t r ic

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a d n o M a tr ic , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: They appointed him …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e s p it e k n o w i n g t h a t ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is w r i t e .
CHAIRPERSON: That - that is what you were looking for?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e l o o k in g fo r n o w ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. N o I - I u n d e r s t a n d
t h a t D r N g u b a n e b u t m y q u e s t io n i s if h e d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic h e w o u l d
h a v e s a i d I d o n o t h a v e M a tr ic w h e n h e is a p p l y i n g f o r t h e - f o r t h e
p o s i ti o n b u t i f k n o w i n g t h a t h e d o e s n o t h a v e M a tr ic b u t h e p u t s u p

20

s y m b o ls a n d s u b j e c ts w o u l d y o u r e g a r d t h a t a s mi s r e p r e s e n t a t i o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll h e - y e s o f c o u r s e . H o w e v e r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

He told us that he did not have

M a tr ic .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o w e k n e w t h a t . I m e a n w e d i d n o t
s e a r c h fo r a l l s o r ts o f t h i n g s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e k n e w h e d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic b u t
h e c o u l d d o t h e jo b .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o in o t h e r w o r d s a s f a r a s y o u a r e

c o n c e r n e d th e n o r n o w i t r e a ll y d id n o t m a tt e r t h a t h e h a d p u t i n t h o s e
s y m b o ls o n …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n th e a p p l ic a ti o n f o r m .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o , n o t h a t d i d n o t a r i s e . I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t is s u e d i d n o t a r is e .

We went

w i t h t h e k n o w le d g e t h a t h e d o e s n o t h a v e M a tr ic …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t s e n i o r p e o p le i n S A B C s a w f i t t o
appoint him.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

W h e n y o u s a y th e is s u e d id n o t a r is e d o

y o u m e a n it d i d a r is e b e f o r e t h e P u b l ic P r o te c to r o r t h a t is s u e d id n o t
20

a r i s e a t a ll a t t h e S A B C p r io r t o h is a p p o i n t m e n t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e l l a t t h e S A B C i t d i d n o t a r is e .

W e k n e w t h a t h e d id n o t h a v e M a tr i c …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

But we knew that we wanted certain

s e r v ic e s fr o m h i m .

Page 139 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. I think the - maybe one should look …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t i t fr o m t h i s a n g l e b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e p u b l ic o r p a r t
o f t h e p u b li c m i g h t a l s o b e lo o k in g a t i t i n t h i s w a y.

N a m e ly w a s

p o s s e s s i o n o f M a tr i c n o t r e q u i r e d - w a s it n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e
p o s i ti o n o f S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s M a n a g e r t h a t - t h a t m i g h t b e o n e
p o s i ti o n b u t th e b o a r d d i d n o t m a k e t h a t d e c is i o n b u t o n c e t h e b o a r d
h a d to m a k e a d e c is i o n i t - o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t i t w o u ld s t a r t
b y s a y in g w h a t a r e t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts fo r t h i s p o s i t io n .
10

D o e s h e m e e t t h o s e r e q u ir e m e n ts ? S o I t h i n k t h a t o n e m u s t
s a y - a s k t h e q u e s ti o n fo r t h e p o s i t i o n o f G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e f o r
S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s w a s p o s s e s s io n o f M a tr ic n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t a n d
w a s p o s s e s s io n o f M a tr ic n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t fo r a p p o i n t m e n t a s A c ti n g
C E O - C O O . S o I t h i n k t h a t - t h a t is w h e r e y o u m i g h t w is h t o fo c u s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e k n e w h e d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

20

B u t w e k n e w t h a t h e c o u l d d e l iv e r

what we wanted …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d t h a t i s w h a t g u i d e d u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W o u ld - w o u ld y o u r a n s w e r th e r e f o r e b e t h a t y o u
k n e w t h a t h e d id n o t h a v e M a tr i c b u t y o u k n e w t h a t p o s s e s s i o n o f
M a tr ic - M a tr ic C e r t if ic a te w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r b o t h o f th e s e p o s it i o n s

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b u t f o r c e r t a i n r e a s o n s y o u d e c i d e d t h a t i t w a s fi n e o r - o r is t h e
p o s i ti o n t h a t t h e b o a r d d i d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r M a tr i c w a s a r e q u i r e m e n t
f o r t h e s e p o s i ti o n s ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

C h a ir p e r s o n w e k n o w th a t o r w e

k n e w t h a t a M a tr ic C e r ti f ic a t e a n d h i g h e r q u a l i fi c a t io n s a r e a l w a y s
r e q u ir e d b u t l ik e th e p e o p le i n th e Fr e e S t a te t h e y w e r e d e a l in g w i t h a
c r is is w h e r e t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e t h e r e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e a b l e t o
d e li v e r a s u c c e s s fu l b r o a d c a s t in g s e r v ic e w e r e fa il in g a n d h e n c e t h e y
t o o k t h i s b o y w h o d i d n o t h a v e a M a tr i c a n d h e m a d e a d i ff e r e n c e .
10

So it was the same approach here.

W e k n o w n o r m a l ly y o u

w o u ld w a n t t o h a v e th o s e q u a li fi c a t io n s b u t w h e n p e o p l e w i th t h o s e
q u a li fi c a t io n s f a i l y o u t h e n tr y a n y th in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d y o u th e n b e in a p o s i ti o n t o s a y w h e t h e r

a p p o i n ti n g s o m e b o d y t o a p o s i ti o n w h e r e h e o r s h e d id n o t m e e t o n e o f
t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s a b r e a c h o f w h e t h e r it w a s p o l ic y o r w h a t e v e r

g o v e r n a n c e r u l e s a n d r e g u l a ti o n s .

Yo u - y o u - t h a t y o u k n e w th a t i t

w a s a b r e a c h b u t y o u c o n s i d e r e d t h a t h a v in g r e g a r d t o e v e r y t h i n g e ls e
20

y o u c o n s i d e r e d - t h e b o a r d c o n s i d e r e d i t s e l f ju s ti fi e d o r w h a t - w h a t
w o u ld y o u s a y ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I w o u l d s a y e x a c tl y y o u s a id …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t th e b o a r d k n e w …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t t h e p e o p l e w e h a d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: H a d n o t d e li v e r e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S o w e w e r e tr y i n g t o i m p r o v e t h e

s i tu a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y, a lr i g h t.
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A n d - a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Th e r e a r e p e o p l e a t S A B C w h o d o

n o t h a v e M a t r ic .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h is w a s n o t t h e p r e c e d e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O r t h e f i r s t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: P e o p l e i n q u i t e s e n i o r p o s i ti o n s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I a m s u r e i f H R c o u l d p r o v i d e u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W i th a l i s t o f a ll th e q u a l i fi c a t io n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O f p e o p l e i n s a l e s o f p e o p le …

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I n d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n t y o u w o u ld

fi n d t h a t t h e r e a r e s o m e w h o d o n o t h a v e M a tr ic .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S o m e o f t h e m c o m e fr o m t h e o ld

d is p e n s a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B e f o r e 1 9 9 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W h o d i d n o t h a v e M a t r i c b u t th e y

w e r e g i v e n th e s e j o b s a n d th e y w e r e d o i n g i t v e r y w e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h e - w e l l I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t th e fa c ts y o u - y o u
might know much more because you were Chairperson of the Board
there.

I c a n - b u t I c a n u n d e r s t a n d a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e r e i s a n e w

d is p e n s a t i o n t h a t c o m e s a n d c o m e s in a n d i t c o m e s i n w h e n t h e r e w a s
a n o t h e r d i s p e n s a ti o n b e f o r e .

T h a t o th e r d is p e n s a t i o n m a y h a v e d o n e

things in a certain way …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d t h e n e w d is p e n s a ti o n w a n ts t o d o t h i n g s

d i ff e r e n t ly …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is c o n s i d e r e d t h a t m a y b e i t w o u l d b e u n fa ir t o
t h e n s a y p e o p l e w h o h a d b e e n a p p o i n te d t o a c e r t a i n p o s i t io n u n d e r t h e
p r e v i o u s d is p e n s a t i o n s h o u l d n o w b e d is m i s s e d b e c a u s e t h e n e w
d is p e n s a t i o n h a s d i ff e r e n t r e q u ir e m e n ts f o r t h o s e p o s i ti o n s .

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I - I can

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
u n d e r s t a n d a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e a d e c is i o n i s t a k e n l o o k w h e n th e y c a m e
in t h e y m e t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts th a t w e r e r e q u ir e d t h e n .
W e w a n t d i ff e r e n t r e q u ir e m e n ts b e c a u s e m a y b e w e h a v e a
d i ff e r e n t le v e l t o w h i c h w e w a n t t o t a k e t h is i n s ti t u ti o n b u t th e n w h a t
m i g h t h a p p e n is a s I s e e i t y o u s a y w e l l i f t h o s e p e o p l e s t a y w h e r e t h e y
a r e y o u l e a v e th e m a l o n e b u t i f t h e y w a n t t o g o u p …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e n y o u w i ll - y o u w i ll w a n t t h e m t o m e e t t h e

r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t a r e r e q u ir e d a t t h e t i m e w h e n th e y w a n t to g o u p .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t - t h a t I c a n u n d e r s t a n d .

Is - i s i t t h a t k in d o f

s i tu a ti o n th a t y o u - y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t i n te r ms o f t h e H R o r c o u ld i t
b e a s i t u a t i o n s i m i l a r t o M o ts o e n e n g b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d - I m a y
b e w r o n g - a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e p o s i ti o n M r M o ts o e n e n g s e e ms to h a v e
c o m e in t o th e S A B C a t t h e Fr e e S t a te a f te r 1 9 9 4 w h ic h I w o u ld c o n s i d e r
t o b e a n e w d i s p e n s a ti o n .
T h e o t h e r p e o p l e - t h e o t h e r s i tu a ti o n s w h e r e t h e r e w e r e
p e o p l e w h o d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h e y w o u l d h a v e
b e e n f r o m t h e o l d - t h e d is p e n s a ti o n o r n o t r e a ll y o r is i t s o m e t h i n g y o u
20

w o u ld n o t k n o w ? Yo u ju s t k n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e o th e r p e o p le w h o d id
n o t h a v e M a t r ic .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Well

I

w o u ld

not

have

the

d o c u m e n t a ti o n b u t H R w o u l d h a v e .
CHAIRPERSON: Would have, yes.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: B u t t h e n C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u w il l a l lo w

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me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h e s a m e d is p e n s a t i o n - t h e n e w

d is p e n s a t i o n r e c o g n is e d p r i o r l e a r n i n g a n d t h is h a d a m a j o r e ff e c t o n
t h e t h i n k in g - y o u k n o w - o n th e b o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o I - I t h i n k t h a t - I t h in k th a t i s i m p o r t a n t.
I m e a n th e r e - t h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e w h o m i g h t n o t h a v e M a t r ic . W h o
m i g h t n o t e v e n h a v e l o w e r e d u c a t io n a l s ta n d a r d s o r g r a d e s t h a n M a tr i c
who nevertheless are very good at what they are doing and who do a
10

very good job and one must never create the impression that if you do
n o t h a v e M a t r ic y o u a r e n o t h in g .
Yo u k n o w.

If you do not have a Degree you are nothing.

T h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e w h o m a k e v e r y i m p o r ta n t c o n tr i b u t io n s in
s o c ie t y w i t h o u t th o s e fo r m a l q u a l i fic a ti o n s b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s I t h in k w h a t
is i m p o r ta n t a n d y o u m i g h t w is h t o c o m m e n t h e r e is th a t i t is i m p o r ta n t
t h a t th e p o li c i e s o f a n o r g a n is a ti o n t h a t a r e p u t i n p l a c e b e f o ll o w e d …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Yo u a r e r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f t h e p o l ic ie s o r r e g u l a t i o n s s a y f o r t h i s p o s i t io n
M a tr ic i s r e q u ir e d …
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Yo u r i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t y o u s t ic k t o t h a t. O f c o u r s e i f y o u t h in k t h a t a t a
p a r t ic u l a r s ta g e th is p o l ic y d o e s n o t s e r v e t h e i n s ti t u ti o n p r o p e r l y o r
t h e s e r e g u l a t i o n s d o n o t s e r v e th e i n s t i tu t i o n p r o p e r ly. It m a y b e b e t h a t
t h e r e is a r e a s o n t o p u t - th e r e is a c a s e t o p u t f o r w a r d t o s a y l e t u s
change it …

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D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t p r e v e n ts u s f o r e x a m p l e fr o m g iv in g - fr o m
a p p o i n ti n g s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t n o t h a v e a p i e c e o f p a p e r w r i t t e n
M a tr ic …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON: But has a lot of experience that would be good for the
o r g a n i s a t io n b u t th e n y o u s a y to d o i t t h e p r o p e r w a y y o u s a y w e ll if
t h e r e a r e g e n e r a ll y m o r e s i tu a ti o n s lik e t h a t p r o b a b ly n o t t o d o i t fo r a n
in d i v i d u a l .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Then you change it and then when you - when you

in v i te a p p l ic a ti o n s i f th a t is t h e k in d o f s i t u a t io n y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h
e v e r y b o d y k n o w s w h a t th e r u l e s a r e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y k n o w th a t i f y o u d o n o t h a v e M a tr ic b u t y o u

h a v e th is p r i o r e x p e r i e n c e a n d i t is r e l e v a n t y o u c o u l d b e a ll o w e d . Yo u
- y o u c a n a p p ly …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

And then you appoint somebody who does not have

M a tr ic i n t h a t s i t u a t io n y o u c a n j u s ti fy i t b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t i n b r e a c h
o f y o u r p o l ic y o r r e g u l a ti o n s . T h a t - t h a t I t h i n k t h a t - t h a t is w h e r e t h e
d i ff e r e n c e m i g h t b e . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t to s a y a n y t h i n g .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e ll I a c c e p t th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n …

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B u t w h e n a p p o i n ti n g a s A c ti n g C E O

w e h a v e t o in f o r m t h e M i n i s t e r a n d g e t t h e c o n c u r r e n c e .

S o th a t

h a p p e n e d . I t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e M in is t e r. S o w e th o u g h t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: W e w e r e d o in g s o m e t h i n g a lr i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o - s o t h e r e w a s c o n c u r r e n c e fr o m t h e M i n i s te r
and …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: E x a c tly.
10

CHAIRPERSON: The board thought then …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: E x a c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s h o u l d b e fi n e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: E x a c tly o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O t h e r w i s e h e w o u l d n e v e r h a v e b e e n
a n A c ti n g C E O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O f c o u r s e th e - t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty m ig h t b e
t h a t b e fo r e th e b o a r d s e n d s a n y th in g t o t h e M in is t e r - b e f o r e i t m a k e s
it s d e c is i o n i t m u s t s a ti s f y i ts e l f .

20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t if w e d o - i f w e m a k e t h is d e c i s i o n .

These

d e c is i o n s w il l - t h i s d e c is i o n w il l b e i n l in e w i t h t h e r e g u l a ti o n s a n d t h e
p o li c i e s …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f i t w i ll n o t b e th e y m u s t n o t e v e n s e n d i t t o t h e

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
M i n is t e r.

T h e y m u s t s a ti s f y t h e m s e l v e s .

I s it i n a c c o r d a n c e w it h t h e

p o li c i e s ? I s i t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e r e g u l a ti o n s a n d t h e l a w ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t k in d o f t h i n g b e c a u s e m a y b e w h e n t h e M i n is t e r w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e Mi n is te r t h e Mi n is t e r m ig h t a ls o s a y o h t h e b o a r d
h a s n o p r o b l e m . I w i ll d e f e r t o th e b o a r d . I th in k i t m u s t b e f in e . S o
t h e n e v e r y b o d y is - is n o t c h e c k i n g .

E v e r y b o d y t h i n k s th e o t h e r o n e

h a s c h e c k e d . It s h o u l d - m u s t b e fi n e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: R i g h t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e I - I a m c o m in g fr o m ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I d o v e r y w e l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . J u s t t o d e a l w i th
t h a t p o i n t t h a t D r N g u b a n e h a s m a d e i n r e s p o n s e t o y o u r q u e s t io n
C h a ir. M a y I a s k t h e w i tn e s s t o tu r n t o S A B C E X H I B I T C C 3 2 ? T h a t is
…
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o U ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , i t i s - i t is a n o th e r b u n d l e , y e s . Yo u
c a n c l o s e th a t o n e D r N g u b a n e .

20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h is is - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir.

a m t o l d t h a t th is is y o u r b u n d l e .

I a m s o r r y.

w h e t h e r t h e r e is a C C 3 2 t h e r e ? M a y b e …

Page 148 of 179

Oh, I

C o u l d y o u ju s t f i n d

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th e r e is o n e t h a t h a s g o t h is s t a t e m e n t . T h e r e i s
o n e th a t h a s g o t t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r ’s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : R e p o r t . N o C h a ir C C …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p o r t a n d t h e r e is o n e t h a t h a s g o t t h e t r a n s c r i p t o f
t h e P a r li a m e n ta r y C o m m i t t e e …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e b e s t w a y to te ll u s w h a t is - w h a t is w r i tt e n o n
t h e s p in e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is - i t i s w r i t te n S A B C R e f e r e n c e B u n d le
10

C h a ir. I t is t h e - t h e r e f e r e n c e d b u n d l e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e - t h e r e a r e to o m a n y o f t h e s e b u n d le s n o w.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s C h a ir.

3 2 - I t h in k i t is u n d e r n e a t h

that one. Oh, yes. That one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S A B C R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o t it .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 2 - 1 - 8 th e

r e d - t h e r e a r e t w o n u m b e r s t h e r e C h a ir ? Pl e a s e ig n o r e t h e o n e in i n k
20

a n d h a v e a lo o k a t th e o n e i n r e d - 2 - 1 - 8 . T h a n k y o u . T h i s i s a le t t e r
c o n fir m i n g t h a t M r H la u d i h o ld s t h e t it l e o f Ac t in g C h ie f O p e r a t io n s
O ff ic e r a n d i t i s fr o m M r T h a b i s o L e s a l a d a t e d 2 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 b u t
b e f o r e t h a t t h e r e is a p a g e - p a g e 2 - 1 - 9 p r e c e d e s 2 - 1 - 8 b u t it f o l lo w s i n
terms of the bundle.

T h e o n e d a t e d 1 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 is th a t y o u r

s ig n a tu r e D r N g u b a n e ?

Page 149 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h is i s t h e - 2 - 1 - 9 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s 2 - 1 - 9 .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: J a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is a s u b d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y. A p p o i n ti n g o f t h e A c ti n g …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: In 2-1-9?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e - th e l e tt e r is fr o m …
CHAIRPERSON: On page 2-1-9 …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: In red.
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h e l e tt e r i s fr o m t h e M i n is te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e d n u m b e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

No, no, no.

In red.

2 - 1 - 9 i n r e d is a

( in d is ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t th e - n o t t h e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t t h e b la c k o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t th e h a n d w r i t te n o n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e ty p e d t o t h e r i g h t .
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: O h , r i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
a u t h o r i ty.

S o t h a t - th a t is s u b d e le g a ti o n o f

Yo u - y o u w e r e d e le g a ti n g th a t a u t h o r i ty - a m I r ig h t t o

Page 150 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
M r H la u d i M o ts o e n e n g ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u a n d th e n i f y o u t u r n o v e r t o

page 220.

a l e tt e r

Yo u

w i ll fi n d

w r it t e n 1 5 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 t o

M i n is t e r D i n a P u l e w h e r e y o u w e r e a d v is i n g h e r o f t h e r e s o lu t io n o f t h e
b o a r d a n d th e l e t te r r e a d s :
“ A p p o i n t m e n t o f th e Ac t in g C h i e f O p e r a ti o n s O ff ic e r :
10

p u r s u a n t t o th e a u t h o r i ty g i v e n b y A r ti c l e 1 8 o f t h e
S A B C A r ti c l e s o f A s s o c i a ti o n t h e r e s o l u t io n t a k e n
by

th e

s p e c ia l b o a r d

on

1 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11

in

r e s p e c t o f th e A c ti n g C h ie f O p e r a ti n g O ff ic e r b e
i m p l e m e n te d .

One,

th e

appointment

of

M r H la u d i M o ts o e n e n g a s A c ti n g C h i e f O p e r a t in g
O ff ic e r w i th e ffe c t fr o m 1 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 u n ti l
such

ti m e

appointed.

t h a t t h e C h i e f O p e r a ti n g

O ff ic e r is

Tw o , t h e r e c r u i t m e n t p r o c e s s fo r a l l

v a c a n c ie s a t e x e c u ti v e l e v e l p a r tic u la r ly G r o u p
20

C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ff ic e r, C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ffi c e r a n d
C h i e f O p e r a ti o n s O ff ic e r b e u r g e n t ly c o m m e n c e d
with

the

a s s is ta n c e

C o m m u n i c a t io n s .

of

the

M i n is te r

of

I h o p e y o u f in d t h e a b o v e in

o r d e r a n d w e a w a i t y o u r fu r t h e r i n s tr u c t io n s o n t h is
m a t t e r. ”

Page 151 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
S i g n e d b y y o u D r N g u b a n e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

Then the next page at

p a g e 2 2 1 is t h i s t h e l e tt e r t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o w h e n y o u w e r e
a n s w e r i n g t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?

I t - i t i s w r i t te n t o y o u fr o m t h e M i n i s tr y

C o m m u n i c a t io n s - D r B e n N g u b a n e a n d i t s a y s :
“ D e a r D r N g u b a n e , a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e A c t in g C h i e f
O p e r a t io n s O ff ic e r :
r e fe r s .
10

Board

t h e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d m a t te r

I h a v e n o t e d th e r e s o l u t i o n ta k e n b y t h e
of

the

SABC

M r H la u d i M o ts o e n e n g

as

the

O p e r a t io n s O ff ic e r o f th e S A B C .

to

appoint

A c ti n g

C h ie f

I w o u l d li k e to

a d v ic e t h a t in t e r m s o f Ar t ic l e 1 9 . 2 o f t h e A r t ic le s o f
A s s o c ia t io n o f th e S A B C I h e r e b y a p p r o v e t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r H l a u d i M o t s o e n e n g a s t h e C h ie f
O p e r a t io n s O ff ic e r o f t h e c o r p o r a ti o n .

A s a r e s u lt

o f my a p p r o v a l I w o u l d l ik e to a d v is e y o u - t o a d v is e
t h a t y o u s h o u l d p r o c e e d t o i m p l e m e n t t h e r e s o l u ti o n
of
20

th e

s p e c ia l

1 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 .

board

m e e t in g

taken

on

I t r u s t t h a t y o u w il l f in d t h e

a b o v e i n o r d e r. D a t e d 2 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 . ”
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Is th is t h e - t h e a p p r o v a l t h a t y o u w e r e

r e fe r r i n g t o ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o . T h e r e i s a m is t a k e .

Page 152 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S h e s a y s a s t h e C h ie f O p e r a ti o n s

O ff ic e r o f t h e c o r p o r a t i o n . W e w e r e t a lk in g a b o u t a n A c ti n g C O O .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s b e c a u s e th e h e a d i n g d o e s s a y :
“ A p p o i n t m e n t o f A c ti n g C h ie f O p e r a t io n s … ”
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : “ … O ff i c e r. ”
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s b u t it is …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

B u t y o u a r e q u i te c o r r e c t t h e n i n - i n th e

b o d y o f t h e l e t te r …
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S h e m a k e s r e fe r e n c e t o C h ie f O p e r a t io n s

O ff ic e r.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t I t h i n k s h e m a d e a m is ta k e o n ly i n r e g a r d t o
t h a t la s t li n e o f t h e f ir s t o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h . E a r li e r o n i n t h e p a r a g r a p h
s h e d o e s r e fe r t o A c ti n g C h ie f …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A c t i n g C h i e f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O p e r a ti o n s O ff ic e r.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . S o - s o t h a t w a s
t h e l e tt e r t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o . T h e n b e f o r e w e m o v e fr o m t h a t b u n d l e I
w o u ld l ik e t o j u s t d e a l w i th s o m e o f th e m i n u t e s - t h e b o a r d m i n u t e s
t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .

Page 153 of 179

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D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: S o r r y. A r e t h e m i n u t e s h e r e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th e y a r e i n t h e r e y e s . Th a n k y o u . I w il l I w il l j u s t l ik e t o t a k e y o u to s o m e o f th e m in u te s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w h i l e y o u a r e lo o k in g fo r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e m i n u te s I ju s t a s k a n o t h e r q u e s ti o n .

A c ti n g

a p p o i n t m e n ts a t G r o u p E x e c u tiv e le v e l w e r e t h e y th r o u g h o u t y o u r ti m e
a l w a y s m a d e o n t h e b a s is o f s i m p ly i d e n t i fy i n g t h e i n d iv i d u a l a n d
10

a p p o i n ti n g t h a t i n d iv id u a l to a c t o r w a s t h e r e a d i ffe r e n t p r o c e s s th a t
w a s f o ll o w e d a t - a t s o m e s ta g e o r i n r e g a r d t o o t h e r p o s it i o n s o t h e r
t h a n th o s e o f C O O o r G r o u p E x e c u t iv e S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e l l a p a r t f r o m t h e t h r e e p o s i t io n s

t h e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ff ic e r c a n a p p o i n t Ac t in g G r o u p E x e c u t iv e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h a t I’ m a s k in g is w h e t h e r t h e p r o c e s s ,

w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a p a r tic u l a r p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o l l o w e d w h i c h w a s
d i ff e r e n t fr o m s i m p l y t h e a p p o in t in g a u th o r it y i d e n ti f y i n g w h o t h e
p e r s o n is th a t w ill b e a p p o i n t e d t o a c t , i n o t h e r w o r d s w h e t h e r
s o m e t i m e s w h a t w o u ld b e d o n e is t o s a y l e t ’s l o o k a t d i ff e r e n t n a m e s o r
20

in v i te s o m e p e o p le w h o a r e p r e p a r e d t o b e c o n s i d e r e d a n d t h e n o n e
w o u ld b e a p p o i n te d o r w h e t h e r fo r a c t i n g a p p o i n t m e n ts i t w a s a l w a y s
t h e p o s i t io n t h a t t h e r e w a s n o p a r ti c u l a r p r o c e s s , th e B o a r d j u s t
a p p o i n t e d s o m e b o d y t o a c t i n a p a r tic u la r p o s i ti o n t h a t it c o n s id e r e d
w a s s u i t a b le .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

C h a ir p e r s o n th e p e o p l e w h o is

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
a p p o i n t e d a c t in g s h o u ld b e i n t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s th e p e r s o n w h o
o c c u p i e d , in o t h e r w o r d s .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e v a c a n t p o s i ti o n .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Grade 5 or Grade 7.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h e y m u s t b e i n th e s a m e p o s i t io n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h e n t h e C E O w il l a p p o i n t a n d

in f o r m u s t h a t s o a n d s o is n o w a c t in g .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O h , s o i n s o f a r a s a c ti n g is c o n c e r n e d i t w a s t h e

G r o u p C E O w h o m a d e th e a p p o i n t m e n t .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n h e w o u ld ju s t i n f o r m t h e B o a r d a ls o .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s s ir, a p a r t f r o m t h e t h r e e

p o s i ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a p a r t fr o m t h e t h r e e p o s i ti o n s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

F o r a c ti n g a p p o i n t m e n ts i n r e g a r d t o th e t h r e e

p o s i ti o n s it w i ll b e t h e B o a r d t h a t w o u ld m a k e t h e d e c is io n .
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d r e p o r ts to t h e M i n i s te r.

Ye s , b u t i n t h a t c a s e t o o t h e r e w a s n o p a r ti c u l a r

p r o c e s s , w o u l d t h e B o a r d s i m p ly l o o k a t w h o e v e r t h e y d e c i d e s h o u ld
t h e y t h o u g h t w o u l d b e r i g h t th e n t h e y w o u l d a p p o i n t t h e p e r s o n , w i t h o u t
c ir c u l a ti n g a n y n o tic e o r i n v i ta t io n i n t e r n a ll y t o s a y w e w il l b e
a p p o i n ti n g a n a c t i n g p e r s o n , th o s e w h o t h in k th e y w a n t to b e

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
c o n s i d e r e d s h o u l d s e n d t h e ir n a m e s o r C V ’s , th e r e w o u l d b e n o th in g
lik e th a t fo r a c t in g a p p o i n t m e n t s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n a b s o lu t e l y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I j u s t w a n t u s t o d e a l

w i t h t h e r o l e t h a t M r H la u d i w a s p l a y in g i n o n e o f th e B o a r d m e e ti n g s ,
ju s t t o l i n k u p w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r li e r a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o d ir e c t y o u r
a tt e n ti o n p le a s e to p a g e 3 9 o f th a t s a m e e x h i b i t , C C 3 2 , t h a t s a m e
b u n d l e th a t i s i n fr o n t o f y o u .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o r r y, p a g e ?

Page 39.

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

39?

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e o n t h e s a m e b u n d le ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e s a m e b u n d l e C h a ir y e s t h a n k y o u .

CHAIRPERSON: Page 39.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th r e e n i n e , y e s th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o r r y

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o r r y C h a ir, t h a t – t h o s e a r e t h e m i n u t e s

o f a s p e c i a l m e e ti n g , a B o a r d m e e ti n g t h a t w a s h e l d o n th e 7 t h o f
F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 a n t h a t y o u w e r e c h a ir i n g D r N g u b a n e , is t h a t c o r r e c t,
according to that document?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t is c o r r e c t .

Ye s , a n d w e Mr M o ts o e n e n g w a s o n e o f

Page 156 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h e p e r s o n s t h a t w e r e in a t t e n d a n c e , b u t I w o u ld j u s t lik e t o ju s t r a is e
s o m e t h i n g w h ic h is m e n ti o n e d a t p a g e 11 , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , a t p a g e
4 9 , 4 9 , I w a s l o o k i n g a t th e d o c u m e n t i ts e l f , p a g e 4 9 .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Page?

Page 49, same document but on page 49.

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O k a y, r i g h t .

Ye s , th e n M r – th is is A c ti n g C O O a n d I

b e li e v e th a t ’s M r H la u d i a c c o r d i n g t o t h e m in u te s , t h e t h i r d p a r a g r a p h :
“ A g r e e d w i t h A d v o c a te M h l a s e b u t s t a t e d t h a t k e e p i n g th e
10

employee ....”
O r s o r r y, m a y b e I s h o u l d r e a d t h e e a r li e r p a r a g r a p h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t s t a r t e a r li e r o t h e r w is e w e d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t
t h e w a s a g r e e i n g w it h . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th e n th e c o n te x t , i t b e c o m e s c o n te x t

c o r r e c t C h a ir. C o u l d y o u s t a r t fr o m t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h , t h e fir s t o n e
a c t u a ll y b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t ’s t h e s a m e p e r s o n .
“ S h e s a i d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n e e d fo r a n i n n o v a ti v e s o l u ti o n
taking

in t o

c o n s i d e r a t io n

her

r i g h ts .

Advocate

Mhlase

in f o r m e d th e B o a r d t h a t t h e m a x i m u m p a y a b le u n d e r t h e
20

C C M A’s t w e l v e m o n t h s . S h e w a s o f th e v i e w t h a t i t w a s e a s ie r
t o p u r s u e t h a t r o u t e a n d t h e p r o p o s a l b y Mr M u t s e p e o t h e r
t h a n m a k e a p a y m e n t o f R 4 m ill i o n p lu s w h ic h w a s e x c e s s iv e .
A c ti n g C O O a g r e e d w i th A d v o c a t e M a h l a s e b u t s t a t e d t h a t
k e e p i n g th e e m p lo y e e w o u l d n e e d t o b e b u d g e te d f o r a n d t h a t
in t u r n a r o u n d th e i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y w a s p a r a m o u n t a n d

Page 157 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t h e e m p l o y e e s to b e p r o d u c t iv e .
need

for

r a d ic a l

and

c o r p o r a t io n f o r w a r d .

H e s ta t e d t h a t th e r e w a s a

u n p o p u la r

d e c i s io n s

to

take

the

H e r e q u e s t e d t h e B o a r d t o a s s is t in

p l a c in g M s M a m p a n e i n g o v e r n m e n t . ”
I f o n e r e a d s t h e r e w i t h o u t r e a d in g t h e f u ll m i n u t e b u t t h e s u g g e s ti o n
w a s th a t M s M a m p a n e c o u l d b e p l a c e d o n e a r ly r e ti r e m e n t o r
tr a n s fe r r e d o r r e d e p l o y e d t o a n o th e r g o v e r n m e n t in s ti t u t i o n .
B u t w h a t I w a n te d t o r a is e w i t h y o u D r N g u b a n e I k n o w t h a t
y o u h a d s a i d Mr H l a u d i c o u ld p a r t ic ip a t e b u t d i d n ’ t h a v e v o t in g r i g h ts ,
10

b u t w o u ld y o u s a y th a t h e w a s d o i n g m o r e t h a n j u s t b e in g o f h e l p , h e is
n o w m a k i n g s u g g e s t i o n s a b o u t p e o p l e b e in g p la c e d i n g o v e r n m e n t .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n l e t m e c l a r i fy, t h a t

n o n - p a r tic i p a t io n i n te r ms o f v o ti n g w a s w h e n h e w a s . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a k e h o ld e r m a n a g e r.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

. .. c o m m u n ic a ti o n s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

N o w h e is A c ti n g C O O , h e is n o w

p a r t o f t h e th r e e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w e r e e n ti tl e d t o . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

H e w a s e n t it l e d . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

H e w a s a m e m b e r . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s f o r a l l in t e n ts a n d p u r p o s e s a n a c ti n g m e m b e r
of the Board.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s .

Page 158 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a n d t h e r e f o r e h e c o u l d p a r t ic ip a t e f u l ly ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

E x a c tly.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Okay thank you, then my question then

f a ll s a w a y, b e c a u s e I w a s u n d e r th e i m p r e s s io n th a t w e a r e m o v in g
u n d e r th e s a m e p a r t , b u t t h e n th e s e m i n u t e s a s y o u w il l s e e D r
N g u b a n e t h a t h a v e b e e n p l a c e d h e r e t h e y a r e t h e m in u t e s o f t h e B o a r d ,
b u t th e y d e a l w i t h v a r i o u s is s u e s , a n d I w o u l d n o t t a k e y o u th r o u g h
10

t h e m , s a v e th a t I w o u l d lik e y o u t o c o m m e n t o n o n e a s p e c t w h ic h y o u
d e a l w it h i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t , t h e is s u e o f e n c r y p t io n .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A lr i g h t .

A n d j u s t a d v is e th e C h a i r w h a t w a s t h e

a tt i tu d e o f t h e B o a r d i n s o fa r a s t h a t e n c r y p ti o n is s u e w a s c o n c e r n e d .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

J a , C h a i r p e r s o n th e is s u e o f

e n c r y p ti o n h a d b e e n a b a ll th a t h a s b e e n k ic k e d a r o u n d a lo t a t S A B C .
I t h a s g o n e t o th e S u p r e m e C o u r t , I th i n k e v e n C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t .
W h e n I w r o te t h i s r e m a r k i n my s ta t e m e n t i t a p p li e d t o a d is c u s s i o n
a ft e r t h e – I th i n k t h e H ig h C o u r t o r C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t h a d r u l e d th a t
20

t h is

m a t te r s h o u l d b e s e t tl e d

b y b r o a d c a s te r s , a n d n o t in v o lv e

p o li t ic i a n s . S o t h a t o p e n e d a w h o l e l o t o f d i s c u s s io n a r o u n d t h e i s s u e
o f e n c r y p t io n .
T h e r e w a s a s t r o n g v i e w t h a t e n c r y p t io n m a k e s a c c e s s t o
b r o a d c a s t in g m a t e r ia l fo r th e p e o p l e c o n d i ti o n a l ly, th a t t h e S A B C A c t
s t ip u l a t e s t h a t t h e r e m u s t b e u n iv e r s a l a c c e s s t o a n y b r o a d c a s t, b u t

Page 159 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
d o n e b y t h e P u b li c B r o a d c a s t e r.
N o w t h e e n c r y p t i o n w il l m e a n t h a t s o m e p e o p l e c o u l d s w it c h
o ff m e m b e r s o f t h e p u b lic a n d n o t h a v e – t h e r e f o r e c o n tr a v e n e t h e f u l l
access

r e q u ir e m e n t ,

that

was

the

type

of

d is c u s s io n

th a t

was

h a p p e n in g , i t w a s n o t d e c i s iv e , b u t t h e m a j o r it y v i e w te n d e d t o b e t o a
la r g e e x t e n t t h a t le t ’s n o t c r e a t e a n y o b s t a c le fo r p e o p l e w h o d o n ’ t
h a v e s u b s c r i p ti o n D S T V o r w h a te v e r o t h e r s u b s c r i p t i o n c h a n n e l c a n b e
s w it c h e d o ff a n d n o t h a v e a c c e s s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s , a n d if y o u – t o g o b a c k t o y o u r

s t a te m e n t n o w, i f y o u c o u ld j u s t c l o s e t h e fi le i n fr o n t o f y o u a n d w e g o
b a c k t o E X H I B I T 2 4 , w e l e f t o ff i n t h e m o r n i n g w h e r e a t p a g e 1 3
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o r r y t h a t is th e o t h e r fi le ?
Ye s , w h e r e y o u h a v e y o u r s ta t e m e n t

document on.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Page 13.

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

S o r r y w h a t is th e n u m b e r ?

O k a y.

S o r r y y o u w ill h a v e to g o b a c k t o d iv id e r

n u m b e r 2 2 , i f t h a t is t h e . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

H a v e y o u r e a c h e d y o u r s ta t e m e n t , a r e y o u a t y o u r

s t a te m e n t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Oh, oh.

Page 160 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
CHAIRPERSON: Then page 13.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

P a g e 1 3 , th a n k y o u . Yo u d e a l t t h e r e , y o u

a r e d e a li n g th e r e M u l t iC h o i c e a g r e e m e n t o n 2 4 h o u r c h a n n e l , c o u l d y o u
ju s t s u m m a r is e y o u r e v i d e n c e i n t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s a n d w h a t is i t t h a t
y o u w a n te d to c o n v e y t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

C h a i r p e r s o n N C A – I ’ m s o r r y, e N C A

w a s b e c o m i n g a v e r y p o w e r fu l c o m p e t it o r f o r t h e S A B C , s o th e r e w a s a
lo t o f d is c u s s i o n a s to h o w th e S A B C c a n h o s t o r p r o v id e a 2 4 h o u r
n e w s c h a n n e l. Yo u k n o w . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : In o th e r w o r d s t o c o m p e t e w i th t h e m ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

To c o m p e t e w i t h t h e m .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Th e n e w s p e o p le t h r o u g h t h e h e a d

o f n e w s e x a mi n e d t h is is s u e , e v e n s u g g e s t e d t h a t w e w o u l d ta k e S A B C
3 a n d m a k e i t i n t o a 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l , b u t th e y n e e d e d p a r tn e r s ,
s o M r O li v i e r a n d H l a u d i M o t s o e n e n g e v e n w e n t t o I n d i a t o tr y a n d a n d
fi n d a p a r t n e r w h o c o u ld h e l p t h e m t u r n S A B C 3 i n t o a 2 4 h o u r n e w s
c h a n n e l . T h e y e v e n w e n t t o L o n d o n , I t h i n k t h e y s p o k e t o I T V o n t h is
is s u e .
W h e n th e y c a m e b a c k a n d r e f e r e n c e w a s m a d e t o I C A S A ,

20

I C A S A s a i d t h e r e is n o w a y S A B C 3 c o u l d b e t u r n e d in t o a 2 4 h o u r n e w s
c h a n n e l b e c a u s e th e l ic e n s e c o n d i ti o n s a r e t h a t it is a c o m m e r c ia l
channel,

it

is

even

accounted

for

s e p a r a t e ly

fr o m

the

p u b li c

b r o a d c a s t e r, w h ic h is S A B C 1 a n d 2 , s o t h a t b r o u g h t a n e n d t o th a t
d is c u s s io n .

Page 161 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
But

th e n

th e

Minister

of

C o m m u n ic a t io n s ,

because

the

P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e w a s v e r y k e e n t h a t w e m o v e o n w i th th e 2 4 h o u r
n e w s c h a n n e l c a ll e d m e a n d M s M k o b o t o a m e e t in g a n d s a i d
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t w a s s t il l G e n e r a l N y a n d a , th e M i n is te r

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

B u l e , o k a y.

D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :
10

N o , n o M i n is t e r B u le .

Ye s .

W e w e n t t o a m e e ti n g , w e

w e r e to l d t h a t i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e ta lk t o M u l ti C h o ic e b e c a u s e t h a t is
t h e o n l y r e m a in i n g a l te r n a tiv e .

S o w e s t a r t e d d is c u s s i o n s w i t h

M u l ti C h o ic e , w e p r o g r e s s e d t h e d is c u s s i o n s v e r y s ig n i f ic a n t ly, u n t il w e
w r o t e , I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r i t w a s a c o n tr a c t o r a n M O U , b u t w e d i d
s ig n a d o c u m e n t t h a t M u l ti C h o ic e w ill h o s t t h e S A B C o n D S T V a s 2 4
hour news.
T h a t s e e m e d to fu l fi l t h e r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t w e h a v e a 2 4 h o u r
news channel.

However the problem came when it came to how

M u l ti C h o ic e w il l p a y f o r t h e S A B C o n t h e i r D S T V b o u q u e t .

Th e y s a i d

t h e y w il l p a y R 5 0 m i ll io n t h e f ir s t y e a r, R 4 0 m i ll io n t h e s e c o n d y e a r,
20

R 3 0 m i ll io n t h e t h ir d y e a r, R 2 m il li o n t h e f o u r th y e a r, R 1 m il li o n e tc e te r a ,
it w a s – a n d th e n t h e r e w il l b e n o t h in g p a y a b le t o S A B C a f t e r th a t .
T h a t b r o k e t h e d is c u s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s s ti ll M u l ti C h o ic e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t w a s s t il l M u l t iC h o ic e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h a t a f t e r t h e s ig n in g o f s o m e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u

Page 162 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
t a lk e d a b o u t b e f o r e ?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

Ye s I a m n o t s u r e it w a s a c o n tr a c t

or an MOU.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B u t w e h a d s ig n e d t h e d o c u m e n t.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d a lr e a d y s i g n e d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:
10

B u t t h e n th e i s s u e o f m o n e y, o f

p a y m e n t , c a m e i n . Th e r e w a s a n o t h e r g r o u s e o n t h e s i d e o f t h e S A B C ,
t h a t t h e y m u s t c a r r y r e g u la t io n s w h ic h a r e i n c l u d e d i n t h e B r o a d c a s t in g
A c t, s ti p u l a t e t h a t a n y s u b s c r ip t io n p r o v i d e r w h o h a s t h ir ty b e q u e s ts o r
s o m u s t c a r r y S A B C 1 a n d S A B C 2 b u t t h e y d o t h is fr e e o f c h a r g e
w i t h o u t p a y in g a n y m o n e y to t h e S A B C .

This was a sore point for

S A B C i n th a t th e y b e n e fi t fr o m a u d ie n c e r a ti n g s , th e y g e t a d v e r tis e m e n t
o u t o f th e c o n t e n t p r o d u c e d b y S A B C , t h e y j u s t c r e a m o ff t h e w o r k o f
SABC.
N o w t o a d d n o w to th is f a c t t h a t M u l ti C h o ic e o n l y w o u l d p a y
R 5 0 m i ll io n i n i t ia ll y a n d e n d u p p a y i n g n o th in g fo r t h e 2 4 h o u r n e w s
20

c h a n n e l b r o k e t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n , th a t i s h o w I le f t i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n y o u l e ft t h e r e w a s a n M O U o r c o n t r a c t t h a t
h a d b e e n s i g n e d b u t t h e r e w e r e d is c u s s io n s t h a t h a d n o t b e e n
fi n a l is e d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t is r ig h t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 163 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , t h a n k y o u . D r N g u b a n e j u s t t o – y o u

w o u ld h a v e n o t ic e d t h a t t h e b u n d l e th e r e f e r e n c e b u n d le c o n ta i n e d
s e v e r a l m e d ia c li p p i n g s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s th a t r e la t e s t o y o u a n d I a m s u r e y o u

h a v e r e a d t h e c r i t ic is m a b o u t M r M o t s o e n e n g ’s a c t in g p o s i t io n , ju s t t o
c o n c l u d e t h a t p o i n t , y o u a r e a w a r e o f th e m e d i a c li p p i n g s a t th e ti m e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll I a m a w a r e o f m a n y t h in g s th a t

the media says.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . S o I d o n ’ t – y o u d o n ’t , o r u n le s s y o u

w i s h m e t o t a k e y o u t h r o u g h a ll o r t o s o m e o f th e m b u t g e n e r a ll y th e
c r i ti c is m g e n e r a ll y is a b o u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r M o ts o e n e n g l a r g e ly.
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e l l a s I h a v e s t a te d e v e r y t h i n g w a s

d o n e i n g o o d f a i t h o n th e a s s u m p t io n th a t i t h e lp s t h e S A B C .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u , a n d t h e n la s t ly – o r n o t l a s t ly,

s o r r y b e fo r e w e g e t t o y o u r g e n e r a l c o m m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e c a u s e y o u s a i d y o u w e r e r o u n d i n g o ff a

p o i n t m a y b e l e t m e s a y t h i s a n d th e n D r N g u b a n e y o u c a n j u s t in d ic a t e
if y o u – m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s c o r r e c t .
20

M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g n o w is t h a t

y o u r – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t y o u a r e s a y in g th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r
M o ts o e n e n g to t h e p o s i ti o n o f A c ti n g C O O , m a y b e s t a r t in g w i t h Ac t in g
C o r p o r a te E x e c u t iv e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a t io n s a n d h is a p p o i n t m e n t a s
A c ti n g C O O m a y h a v e b e e n o r w a s in b r e a c h o f t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts
b e c a u s e h e d id n o t h a v e m a t r ic , th a t w e a c c e p t, b u t w e a c t e d in g o o d
f a i t h , w e t h o u g h t t h a t th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h ic h p r e v a i le d ju s ti fi e d th a t

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w e a p p o in t m e n t h i m n e v e r t h e le s s , i s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t o f w h a t
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I t is c o r r e c t s ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I a m j u s t g o i n g t o

r e a d t o y o u M r H la u d i M o t s o e n e n g h a s s u b m i t t e d a s t a te m e n t to t h e
C o m m i s s i o n , b u t I w o u l d li k e to r e a d a p a r a g r a p h t h a t r e l a t e s to y o u
a n d a s k f o r y o u r c o m m e n t , b e c a u s e w h e n , b y t h e ti m e i t c o m e s to
t e s ti fy y o u w i ll p r o b a b ly n o t b e h e r e , b u t it i s p a r a g r a p h – h e s a y s a t
10

p a r a g r a p h 5 7 , if I m a y j u s t r e a d :
“ A l l S A B C B o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n s , D r N g u b a n e , Pr o f M a g u v e , a n d
M s L M Ts h a b a l a l a w e r e g i v e n a m a n d a t e t o g e t r id o f m e a s I
w a s a s t u m b li n g b l o c k fo r th e B o a r d m e m b e r s w h o w a n te d t o
“eat”.”
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t to t h a t ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

N o . W e ll t h is is n o w t a k i n g m e b y

s u r p r is e , t h e r e w a s n o m a n d a t e g iv e n t o m e t o g e t r i d o f Mr
M o ts o e n e n g . Mr M o ts o e n e n g r a i s e d s o m e is s u e s a s A c ti n g C O O a b o u t
s o m e B o a r d m e m b e r s w h o w e r e w a n t in g t o g e t i n t o a S ie m e n s c o n tr a c t ,
20

h e r a is e d i t s h a r p ly w it h t h e B o a r d , a n d t h a t p r o c e s s w a s s t o p p e d .
T h a t is t h e o n l y -

b u t t h a t d i d n o t l e a d t o a n y o f u s b e i n g g iv e n a

m a n d a t e to fi r e h i m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , a n d w h o w o u l d h a v e g i v e n – i f t h e r e

was a mandate who would have given a ma ndate to you, do you know?
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e ll i t m u s t b e s o m e o n e h i g h e r th a n

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
u s , b e c a u s e I w o u l d n ’ t h a v e .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n ’t g e t y o u r m a n d a t e fr o m s o m e b o d y b e l o w

you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C e r t a in l y n o t .

Th a n k y o u . A n d th e n i n p a r a g r a p h , i f y o u

g o b a c k to y o u r s ta t e m e n t n o w, i n p a r a g r a p h 6 2 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u
m a k e g e n e r a l c o m m e n ts , c o u l d y o u j u s t m a k e th o s e c o m m e n t s , t e ll t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i n th a t p a r a g r a p h ?
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o r r y, t h is 5 6 ?

T h a t is 6 2 , a t p a g e 1 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t .

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

62?

Ye s .

DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e ll b e c a u s e o f t h e tu r n a r o u n d

p r o j e c t th e B o a r d te n d e d t o b e p r o b a b l y t o o in v o lv e d i n te r ms o f th e
c o n d i ti o n s o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n te e t h e B o a r d h a d to e n s u r e t h a t
a l l p r e d e t e r m i n e d o b j e c ti v e s s u c h a s a u s t e r it y m e a s u r e s w e r e ti m e o u s ly
a tt e n d e d , t h i s m e a n t c l o s e m o n i to r i n g a n d s u p e r v is i o n o f m a n a g e m e n t
in i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e t u r n a r o u n d m e a s u r e s .
20

What I did not say here was that Board members felt
c o m p e l l e d t o b e v e r y c l o s e ly i n v o lv e d w it h t h e t u r n a r o u n d , b e c a u s e
t h e r e w a s t h is l a c k o f tr u s t b e tw e e n t h e B o a r d a n d s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

A n d t h e n l a s t ly D r

N g u b a n e a t th e t i m e w h e n y o u w e r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e S A B C B o a r d
d i d y o u h a v e a n y b u s i n e s s i n t e r e s ts , o r c o m p a n i e s t h a t d i d b u s in e s s

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
w i t h t h e S A B C a n d i f s o w h i c h c o m p a n i e s a n d a t w h a t le v e l ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

No we did not have a company in

t h e b r o a d c a s t in g s e c t o r a t a l l .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d n o n e o f y o u r f a m il y m e m b e r s d i d a n y

business with SABC?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

N o , n o t a s i n g le o n e o f t h e m , I m e a n

u n l e s s t h e y a c t in G e n e r a t io n s o r s o m e t h i n g lik e t h a t , w h ic h I m a y n o t
k n o w a b o u t , b u t th e r e w a s n o o n e d o i n g b u s in e s s w i th S A B C .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir, t h a t is

t h e e v id e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:
M o ts o e n e n g .

Th a n k y o u . I t h i n k I w o u l d lik e u s t o g o b a c k t o M r

Yo u d id s a y t h a t t h e S A B C h a d h a d c e r ta i n p e o p l e d o

c e r t a i n j o b s a n d t h e y h a d f a i le d a n d t h a t is p e o p le w h o m a y h a v e h a d
m a tr ic a n d a b o v e , a n d M r M o t s o e n e n g s e e m e d t o b e a b le t o b e
e ffe c tiv e y o u k n o w w i th o u t t h o s e q u a li fi c a ti o n s .

N o w in th is r e g a r d I

t a k e i t t h a t y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t t h e p o s it io n t h e jo b h e h a d t o d o a s
s t a k e h o ld e r r e l a ti o n s m a n a g e r, a n d a s G r o u p E x e c u t iv e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r
R e l a t i o n s , is th a t r ig h t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
20

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o w y o u d i d s a y t h a t t h e j u m p fr o m s t a k e h o ld e r
r e l a ti o n s m a n a g e r to G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s w a s q u i t e
a s i g n i fi c a n t ju m p , a n d y o u r – f o r t h e a c ti n g a p p o in t m e n t n o o t h e r
p e o p l e w e r e a s k e d to m a k e t h e m s e lv e s a v a i la b le b e c a u s e t h a t’s h o w
a c ti n g a p p o i n t m e n ts w e r e m a d e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s s ir.

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t y o u d i d s a y f o r t h e p e r m a n e n t a p p o i n t m e n t to
t h a t p o s i t io n t h e p o s i ti o n w a s a d v e r ti s e d , is th a t r ig h t , fo r th e p o s i t io n
of Group

E x e c u tiv e

fo r

stakeholder

r e l a ti o n s , t h a t

p o s i t io n

was

a d v e r t is e d f o r p e r m a n e n t a p p o i n t m e n t .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

Ye s , a n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t r e q u ir e m e n ts w e r e

p u t f o r t h e a d v e r t fo r th a t p o s i ti o n , d o y o u r e q u ir e – d o y o u r e m e m b e r
in t e r m s o f r e q u ir e m e n ts f o r e d u c a t io n a l q u a l if ic a ti o n s o r is t h a t
s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r.
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e ll t h a t is th e a d v e r ts t h a t I w a s

g iv e n to r e a d .
CHAIRPERSON:

I th in k th a t o n e w a s f o r C O O , I m a y b e m i s ta k e n , I

t h o u g h t i t w a s fo r A c ti n g C O O .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t w a s f o r C O O p o s i ti o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

F o r a p e r m a n e n t p o s i ti o n .

B u t I a m n o w t a l k in g a b o u t n o t p e r m a n e n t f o r

C O O , I ’ m t a lk i n g f o r p e r m a n e n t G r o u p Ex e c u tiv e f o r S t a k e h o ld e r
R e l a t i o n s , b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u e a r l ie r o n , a n d y o u c a n ju s t te ll
20

m e m e i f I m i s u n d e r s to o d , I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y t h e B o a r d a p p o i n te d
M r M o ts o e n e n g a s A c ti n g G r o u p E x e c u ti v e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s ,
b u t th a t l a te r o n t h e r e w a s a n a d v e r t fo r a p e r m a n e n t p o s it i o n i n t o – fo r
t h a t – a p e r m a n e n t a p p o i n t m e n t fo r t h a t p o s i ti o n , d i d I m is u n d e r s t a n d ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

N o , w h e n h e w a s s ta k e h o l d e r

m a n a g e r i n t h e o ffi c e o f t h e C E O .

Page 168 of 179

09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

H e w a s t h e n a s k e d t o b e a ls o

c o m m u n ic a ti o n p e r s o n f o r t h e B o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W h e n h e b e c a m e A c t i n g C O O h e d id

not do those jobs anymore.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E :

H e w a s a n E x e c u t iv e M e m b e r o f t h e

Board.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

S o t h e r e w a s n o c o n n e c t i o n b e tw e e n

h i m b e i n g s t a k e h o l d e r m a n a g e r i n t h e C E O ’s o ff ic e a n d b e i n g A c t in g
COO.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Th o s e t w o w e r e s t il l b e f o r e t h e C O O

A c ti n g s t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h o u g h t t h a t h e w e n t t h r o u g h f o u r s t a g e s , o r
t h r e e s t a g e s w h i le y o u w e r e th e r e , I t h i n k t h e f o u r t h s t a g e n a m e ly a
p e r m a n e n t a p p o in t m e n t a s C O O h a p p e n e d w h e n y o u w e r e n o l o n g e r
20

there.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

I t h o u g h t t h a t y o u s a i d w h il e y o u w e r e t h e r e , t h e r e

w e r e t h r e e p o s i t io n s t o w h i c h h e w a s a p p o i n te d .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e w a s w h e r e h e w a s a p p o i n t e d b y t h e G r o u p C h ie f

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r a s M a n a g e r f o r S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

And the second was where he was appointed as

in it i a l ly G r o u p E x e c u t iv e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t l a t e r h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s A c ti n g C O O .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t h o u g h t th o s e w e r e t h e th r e e p o s it i o n s , b u t n o w I
a m t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e m i d d l e o n e , a n d w h e n I s a y m i d d le i t d o e s n ’ t
10

n e c e s s a r i ly i t ’s b e lo w a n o th e r o n e , I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e G r o u p
E x e c u t iv e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t i n i t ia ll y h e w a s
a p p o i n t e d in a n a c t in g c a p a c i ty t o t h a t p o s it io n .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

B u t t h a t l a t e r o n t h a t p o s it i o n w a s a d v e r t is e d f o r

permanent appointment.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I r i g h t i n t h a t – u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t ?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

W e w e r e n o t i n v o l v e d i n th a t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t in v o lv e d in t h a t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

No.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , f o r G r o u p E x e c u t iv e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

O k a y, b u t i t – t h e r e w a s a n a d v e r t is e m e n t fo r t h a t

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
p o s t f o r p e r m a n e n t a p p o in t m e n t a s fa r a s y o u k n o w.
DR BALDWIN SIPHO NGUBANE:

W e l l th e r e s h o u l d h a v e

been

b e c a u s e i t w a s n o w a v a c a t e d p o s it i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y b u t y o u w e r e n o t in v o lv e d i n t h a t.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e B o a r d w a s n o t i n v o lv e d ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I t h o u g h t th a t a l l G r o u p E x e c u tiv e a p p o i n t m e n ts
were made by the Board.
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

No the three, CEO, CFO, COO.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

B u t t h e o t h e r s a r e m a d e b y th e C E O

but reports to us.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y, o k a y, s o t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t h e m a y h a v e

b e e n a p p o i n te d a s p e r m a n e n t ly a s G r o u p E x e c u t iv e fo r S t a k e h o l d e r
Relations.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Th a t a p p o i n t m e n t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n m a d e b y th e

Board.
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

No.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d h a v e b e e n m a d e b y th e G r o u p C E O .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

T h a t ’s r ig h t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, a l r i g h t . I t’s o n ly a t t h e l e v e l o f A c t in g C O O
t h a t th e B o a r d g o t i n v o l v e d w i t h r e g a r d t o h i m ?
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E:

A b s o l u te ly, a n d i n fo r m e d t h e

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
M i n is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in f o r m e d th e M in is t e r, j u s t fo r A c ti n g .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t w h e n i t c a m e t o th e p e r m a n e n t a p p o i n t m e n t h i s

p e r m a n e n t a p p o i n t m e n t to t h a t p o s i t io n y o u h a d l e f t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O k a y s o – s o
1. In terms of the board appointing him as an acting COO insofar as
y o u d id n o t c o n s i d e r o t h e r p e o p le y o u – y o u r p o s i ti o n w a s t h a t
10

f o r a c ti n g a p p o in t m e n t a s a p r a c t ic e to a n y o f t h o s e p o s it i o n s
a d v e r t is e m e n ts w e r e n o t m a d e f o r a c ti n g a p p o in t m e n ts ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n in t e r n a l ly ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e b o a r d w o u l d j u s t h a v e a l o o k a t p e o p le a n d

id e n t i fy a p e r s o n th a t i t t h o u g h t w a s s u i t a b l e a n d a s l o n g a s t h a t
p e r s o n w a s a lr e a d y e m p lo y e d a t t h e s a m e le v e l.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n is c o u l d a p p o i n t?
20

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. S o – s o th e o n e f o r G r o u p E x e c u tiv e w a s
it a t t h e s a m e l e v e l a s C O O ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: N o t h a t i s h i g h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C O O is h i g h e r ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .

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CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o – s o – s o w h e r e y o u s e e k a n a c ti n g

a p p o i n t m e n t f o r C O O d o e s t h i s r e q u ir e – d i d th is r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t t h e
p e r s o n m u s t b e o n t h e s a m e l e v e l a p p l y o r d id it n o t a p p l y ?

Yo u

in d i c a t e d e a r l ie r o n th a t w h e n y o u a r e g o in g t o a p p o i n t s o m e b o d y a s a n
a c t – in a n a c t in g c a p a c i ty.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l th o u g h y o u d o n o t a d v e r ti s e .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t th e p e r s o n y o u a p p o i n t m u s t b e o n t h e s a m e

le v e l?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: M u s t b e a t t h e G r o u p l e v e l .
CHAIRPERSON: Must be at the Group level.
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t G r o u p l e v e l is n o t e v e r y b o d y o n t h e s a m e le v e l ?
T h e r e a r e d i ffe r e n t l e v e l s t o th e G r o u p le v e l .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t . T h a t is r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o h e w a s a t G r o u p l e v e l e v e n th o u g h n o t a t C O O

le v e l?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u w e r e t h e n e n ti tl e d to – h e w a s o n e o f t h e

p e o p l e y o u w e r e e n ti t le d to lo o k a t?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a t is r ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

O k a y.

And then of course you – you

a c c e p t t h a t f o r t h a t p o s i t io n t h a t p o s i t io n r e q u ir e d q u a li fi c a t io n s t h a t h e
d i d n o t h a v e b u t y o u s a y t h a t y o u to o k t h e v i e w a s t h e b o a r d t h a t

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h a v i n g r e g a r d to w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b e f o r e a n d h a v i n g r e g a r d t o w h a t
– t o h i s p e r fo r m a n c e i n t h e p r e v io u s p o s i ti o n s y o u t h o u g h t t h a t y o u
s h o u l d a p p o in t h i m ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Ye s a n d th e d i ff e r e n c e I t h i n k y o u d i d s a y I a m ju s t

r e fr e s h i n g m y m e m o r y.

T h e d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n th e l e v e l a t G r o u p

E x e c u t iv e f o r S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s a n d C O O w a s a ls o s ig n i f ic a n t ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A n d a g a i n c o m i n g b a c k t o h i s s k il ls . Yo u
10

s a i d e a r li e r o n w h a t h e h a d w a s p e o p le ’s s k il ls o r p e o p l e s k i lls ,
p e o p l e ’s s k i ll s w h ic h I h a v e – I u n d e r s t a n d t o b e h e w a s g o o d w it h
d e a li n g w it h p e o p l e , is t h a t r ig h t ? Is t h e r e a n y t h in g e ls e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: I n m y ti m e M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D u r i n g y o u r ti m e ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s t h e r e a n y th in g e ls e t h a t y o u th o u g h t h e w a s
h e s t o o d o u t – w a s o u ts t a n d in g a b o u t h i m i n t e r m s o f th e p e r f o r m a n c e
o f t h e j o b o th e r t h a n b e in g g o o d w i th p e o p l e ?
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E :

20

He knew the SABC backwards.

He

k n e w e x a c t ly w h o w a s d o i n g w h a t . W h a t s y s t e m w a s b e i n g o v e r r id d e n ?
H o w f a l s e c o m m i s s i o n s w e r e b e i n g g e n e r a te d . H e k n e w a l o t . S o h e
w a s v e r y v a l u a b l e t o u s to s t o p m o n e y f lo w in g fr o m t h e S A B C i ll e g a lly.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d o f c o u r s e a s fa r a s t h e p e r m a n e n t

a p p o i n t m e n t is c o n c e r n e d y o u w e r e n o t t h e r e s o t h e r e f o r e y o u c a n n o t
s a y a n y t h i n g – y o u c a n n o t a n s w e r f o r w h e n h e w a s a p p o in t e d

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p e r m a n e n tly ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h o e l s e w a s a v a i la b le a n d s o o n ?
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y t h in g a r is i n g ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is a l l C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E : E x c e p t t h a t C h a ir m a y b e j u s t t o – t h e
q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u a s k e d t h e w i t n e s s n o w th e y a r e – a b o u t h is
p r o g r e s s i o n a n d t h e c a r e e r h i s t o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Appears at page 217.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Of Exhibit CC32.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h D o c to r N g u b a n e . I t m a y b e

20

t h a t w e m i g h t a s k y o u to c o m e b a c k .
D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: A lr i g h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I h a v e n o d o u b t y o u w i ll c o m e b a c k i f w e a s k y o u
to come back.

B u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e

a n d t o s h a r e y o u r k n o w le d g e o f w h a t h a p p e n e d a t S A B C w it h t h e
c o m m i s s io n .

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D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
D R B A L D W IN S I P H O N G U B A N E : C a n m y l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e h a v e a
r e c o r d o f t h is ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s h e c a n h a v e it – h e c a n h a v e i t.

should be no problem at all.

H e w ill ta l k to th e l e g a l te a m .

There
Th e r e

s h o u l d b e n o p r o b le m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much you are excused.
10

D R B A L D W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a y I h a v e j u s t a f iv e

m i n u t e a d jo u r n m e n t j u s t f o r c h a n g e .

W e a r e h a v i n g a n o th e r w i t n e s s

a n d a ls o h e h a s s li d e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And some things to demonstrate.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Such as – yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F iv e m in u t e s o r t e n ?
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t e n w i ll a ls o b e g o o d C h a ir. Th e o n l y
c h a l le n g e I h a v e C h a i r t o d a y is t h a t w e – I w a s – I a m n o t g o in g to a s k
C h a ir t o p r o c e e d b e y o n d f o u r o ’c lo c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th e r e a s o n b e i n g t h a t t h e r e is a w it n e s s

t h a t w e h a v e t o m e e t w it h n o w w e s a id h e m u s t c o m e a t f o u r o ’c l o c k .

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09 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 159
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is t h e c h a l le n g e I h a v e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t w e a r e in y o u r h a n d s C h a ir.

If you

f e e l th a t m a y b e w e s h o u l d a d jo u r n f o r th e d a y b e c a u s e i t i s a lr e a d y
t w e n ty t o f o u r a n d r e s u m e t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y o u s a y y o u – th e n e x t w i t n e s s s h o u ld t a k e h o w

lo n g i n t e r m s o f t h e e v id e n c e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e is lo n g C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e is lo n g .
D R B A LD W I N S I P H O N G U B A N E:

H e d e a ls w i t h t h e D T T a n d h e is

g o i n g t o d e m o n s tr a te h o w it w o r k s a n d h e i s g o i n g t o b e a l o n g w i t n e s s
a n d I w o u l d n o t w a n t to r u s h h i m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll m a y b e w e s h o u l d t h e n – b u t y o u s a y h e is n o t

a v a i la b le a ft e r f o u r o r y o u a r e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m – t h e t e a m is n o t a v a i la b le C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e te a m is n o t a v a i la b le .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e h a v e a w it n e s s t h a t w e h a v e a r r a n g e d
to meet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u h a v e a w it n e s s t o …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e w e s h o u ld a d j o u r n n o w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n a n d n o t s ta r t f o u r a n d t h e n …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And then leave it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n d o i t fo r t e n mi n u t e s a n d t h e n b r e a k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – a n d i f w e s ta r t t o m o r r o w is h o w l o n g d o y o u

t h i n k h e m i g h t – th e w h o l e d a y o r …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o , n o C h a i r h e w i ll n o t ta k e t h e w h o le

d a y. M a y b e t w o a n d h a l f h o u r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe two and half hours.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m t r y in g t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a n e e d t o s t a r t

e a r ly t o m o r r o w o r n o t. W e d o n o t n e e d t o s t a r t e a r l y i f w e w i ll b e f in e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I th i n k w e w i ll b e fi n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e s h o u l d b e fi n e .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s b e c a u s e I h a v e o n l y – t h e r e w a s o n l y
w i t n e s s fo r t o m o r r o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n i f w e s ta r t w i t h h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e c a u s e h e h a s b e e n h e r e t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e n w e s h o u l d fi n i s h b o th w i t n e s s e s y e s
thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t w e w il l a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y a n d t h e n w e
w i ll s t a r t a t t e n o ’ c l o c k t o m o r r o w.

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 0 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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