C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N T O S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K T O W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

1 0 F E B R U A RY 2 0 2 0

D AY 2 1 0
FINAL

20

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
P R O C E E D I N G E S R E S U M E O N 1 0 F E B R U A RY 2 0 2 0
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: We are starting 10 minutes late because of meetings
to try and sort out some procedural issues. Are you ready?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r i f I m a y j u s t a s k f o r a n o p p o r t u n i t y f o r M s
M e m e l a ’s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e t o i n t r o d u c e h e r s e l f a n d p l a c e h e r s e l f o n
10

record?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

Ms Mbanjwa come to the podium

here. Come there.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : M y s u r n a m e i f M b a n j w a , s p e l l i n g i t f o r t h e
Commission. M-b-a-n-j-w-a.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e i n i t i a l i s L , f u l l n a m e s L i n d e l w a , L - i n-d-e-l-w-a.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I a m o n r e c o r d f o r M s M e m e l a .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Memela good morning.
M S M E M E L A : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a i r.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s t i l l u n d e r o a t h i n t e r m s o f t h e o a t h t h a t y o u
h a d t a k e n l a s t w e e k . Yo u a r e h a p p y t o g i v e e v i d e n c e o n t h e b a s i s t h a t
that oath still applies, is that right?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela where we concluded matters on

Friday was we had begun to look at the agreement between Swissport
10

a n d S A A o u t o f w h i c h t h e s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o r r y.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Chair I just want to point that a

procedural issue. I noticed that Mr Hofmeyr has some files.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

I just wanted to point out that if she is

going to refer Ms Memela to documentary evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : M a y I p l e a s e a l s o b e f u r n i s h e d w i t h t h o s e
d o c u m e n t s i f t h e r e i s a f i l e p r o v i d e d f o r m e . A s i t p l e a s e s M r C h a i r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s C h a i r w e d o h a v e a n e x t r a c o p y w e w i l l

m a k e t h e m a v a i l a b l e t o M s M b a n j w a i m m e d i a t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I o n l y s a w M s M b a n j w a h e r e a t a f e w m i n u t e s
to 10.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t i s w h y a l l o f t h e s e p r o c e s s e s h a v e n o t
been managed to be done yet.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t s h e h a s j u s t b e e n h a n d e d c o p i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A l r i g h t . T h a n k y o u . T h e n y o u c a n s w i t c h
o ff y o u r m i c r o p h o n e M s M b a n j w a . T h a n k y o u . Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

We had concluded matters on

Friday with the beginning of the role that you played in relation to the
10

s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hofmeyr I just wanted to say to Ms Memela. I am
sure you feel much more comfortable today with your lawyer here.
M S M E M E L A : I d o C h a i r. I k n o w t h a t i t w a s s t a t e d t h a t I a m a l a w y e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: But of course as much as I am a lawyer I am a human
being.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: Certain things like touch your emotions and you end up
m a y b e r e a c t i n g i r r a t i o n a l l y.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: So I am happy that my lawyer is here.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

No that is fine.

Thank you.

Ye s .

Oh please

come this side if you want to say something Ms Memela.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Chair I just need to be guided as to

procedure.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON:

H’mm.

A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B e c a u s e i n a n o r m a l c o u r t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I f a s t a t e m e n t i s p u t t o t h e w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Which a legal representative is of the

view that it is not factually correct.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e r e w o u l d b e a n o b j e c t i o n . B u t I d o n o t
10

want to keep interjecting.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : S o I p r o p o s e t h e f o l l o w i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : A s t a t e m e n t w i l l b e p u t t o t h e w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : W h i c h I b e l i e v e i s f a c t u a l l y i n c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

By then I will wait my turn.

Like for

i n s t a n c e n o w t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n p u t t o s a y.
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

The conclusion was about the role Ms

M e m e l a p l a y e d i n t h e G P U ’s .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e r e w i l l b e a n o b j e c t i o n t o t h a t b u t I a m
proposing that when I keep quiet it is not that we accept those

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statements but we will just at the end of the proceedings of Mr Hofmeyr
interject.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

No, no you do not object necessarily because

what is being put to the witness is not factually correct because the
witness will point that out, that it is not true. Of course there could be
something if for example there is a factual assumption on which the
question is based there where you could point that out. But most of the
time it is matters that really can be clarified during re-examination. So
if you do not say anything I will not assume that you agree.
10

A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I a m g u i d e d b y y o u , t h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a i f w e c o u l d p i c k u p y o u r e v i d e n c e a t
page 5 of Exhibit DD25A. It contains your statement.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well Ms Mbanjwa I just want to say for what it is

w o r t h w h i l e y o u m u s t f e e l f r e e t o p r o t e c t y o u r c l i e n t ’s r i g h t s a s m u c h a s
possible and where necessary object I can assure you that over the
past one and a half years or so since this Commission started hearing –
having hearings and hearing evidence there have been a lot of lawyers
who have represented witnesses and implicated persons and it is
20

d i ff i c u l t t o r e m e m b e r p e o p l e w h o h a v e o b j e c t e d a l o t . I t h i n k t h e r e i s
only one that I can remember who objected quite a lot. I think a lot of
people find that there is an attempt to be as fair as possible. But that
is not to say when you think there is reason to object you must not.
But I am just saying that mostly I think most lawyers you know seem to
feel that questions that are being asked are fair and so on.

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A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : N o C h a i r p e r s o n – I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t t h e
questions because I …(indistinct, not speaking into the microphone).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I c a n o n l y s a y w e h a v e f u l l c o n f i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I n t h e C h a i r p e r s o n . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B u t s o m e t i m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I t c a n b e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja no that is fine.

No when you feel that there is

something and you feel it is something serious feel free to object.
O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M s M e m e l a I w a n t e d t o p i c k
it up at paragraph 15 on page 5 because there you start to talk about
t h e r o l e t h a t J M A v i a t i o n p l a y e d i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s .
And if I can pick it up in the middle of that paragraph 15 you say there
in your statement:
“ F r o m S A AT s i d e J M A v i a t i o n n e v e r m e n t i o n e d t h a t
20

t h e y w o u l d b e r e s e l l i n g t h e G P U ’s t o S w i s s p o r t . ”
What we understood during the discussion was that they were
b u y i n g t h e m f r o m S A AT a s t h e S w i s s p o r t B E E C o m p a n y t o c o v e r t h e
30% set aside mandate by SAA to all suppliers. Do you see that?
MS MEMELA: I see that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o e s t h a t r e m a i n c o n s i s t e n t w i t h y o u r a c c o u n t

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
of the events?
MS MEMELA:
Open

Water

Okay remember on this paragraph I was talking about
how

they

have

investigated

this

whole

transaction

Chairperson in terms of like them coming out or maybe reaching the
c o n c l u s i o n t h a t t h e G P U ’s w e r e s o l d b e l o w m a r k e t v a l u e .

So what I

was trying to highlight was the fact that as much as I was not involved
in the decision making and all they did not test the market nor have
they shown anything that showed that it was supposed to be this much.
Yo u k n o w
10

instead they relied on the agreement or maybe the

arrangement between JM and Swissport in terms of like reselling each
o t h e r t h e G P U ’s w h i c h i s n o t t o o u r p o s s e s s i o n o r m a y b e S A AT ’s
possession they only know that. So I was coming from that angle.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
MS MEMELA: Of course I do not remember during the discussion Ms
Hofmeyr where a JM representative said they were going to resell to
Swissport. When we discussed they were talking about okay they have
learnt that the Swissport and SAA contract has been signed. And they
have made a proposal to the acting CEO at that time and then from that
they wanted to negotiate and see a way forward. So whatever that they

20

h a d a g r e e d u p o n w i t h S w i s s p o r t i t d i d n o t r e a l l y i n c l u d e S A AT b e c a u s e
l i k e n o w i t w a s a l r e a d y o u t o f S A AT ’s h a n d s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u M s M e m e l a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay Ms Hofmeyr I did not want to disturb you but

when you indicated what page I was trying to get a pen.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s C h a i r.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: So what page are we ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e a t p a g e 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay no that is fine.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p a r a g r a p h 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela the part that I was actually

interested in your statement is when you said what you understood in
t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e . Yo u s a i d :
“What we understood during the discussion”
10

This is the discussion with JM Aviation.

Was that they were

b u y i n g t h e G P U ’s f r o m S A AT a s t h e S w i s s p o r t B E E C o m p a n y a n d I
place emphasis now on the part that I am interested in “to cover the
30% set aside mandate by SAA to all suppliers.”
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t t h e t i m e ?
MS MEMELA: At the time that was the understanding and remember I
did mention on Friday Chair that the 30% set aside it was something
that was put on the table by the then Chairperson of SAA and I think
the Board because maybe she was not acting alone. And I have in my
20

c a p a c i t y n e v e r e v e r a p p l i e d t h a t i n t e r m s o f l i k e I m e a n f o r S A AT
c o n t r a c t s y o u k n o w. S o t h a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g m a y b e i n t h e S w i s s p o r t
contract which you have seen and you have directed me to on Friday
that maybe they were – the reason why maybe the amount from what
w e l i k e S A AT h a d s o l d t h e G P U ’s f o r i t w e n t u p w h e n t h e s e g u y s s o l d i t
to Swissport because of maybe a certain arrangement with regard to

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
30%. That was our assumption.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Right.

And you evidence on Friday was that

you, yourself regarded the 30% set aside as unlawful, is that right?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . T h a t i s w h y i t w a s n o t a p p l i e d a t S A AT. R e m e m b e r
I a m t a l k i n g o n b e h a l f o f S A AT n o t S A A .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . S o w h e n y o u s t a r t e d e n g a g i n g w i t h J M
Aviation with the understanding that they were playing a role because
of the 30% set aside mandate did you raise with anyone that you should
not be dealing with them because the 30% set aside mandate was
10

unlawful?
MS MEMELA:

Okay can I understand the question again like

…(intervenes)?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C e r t a i n l y.

Yo u r e v i d e n c e o n F r i d a y w a s t h a t

your view was that the 30% set aside mandate of the SAA Board was
unlawful, correct?
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u i n d i c a t e d t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g
at the time of your interactions with JM Aviation was that they were
playing the role of the Swissport BEE Company pursuant to the 30%
20

mandate, is that correct?
MS MEMELA: That is correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n m y q u e s t i o n w a s , w e l l i f y o u r e g a r d e d
the 30% mandate as unlawful did you at any point in your interactions
w i t h J M A v i a t i o n a b o u t t h e s a l e o f t h e S A AT G P U ’s r a i s e w i t h a n y o n e
that you should not be dealing with them because the 30% mandate

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
was unlawful?
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r t h e r o l e t h a t S A AT p l a y e d t h e r e w a s a b s o l u t e

nothing that could maybe nullify the decision that had already been
made by SAA Board or maybe SAA Procurement.

Because remember

t h e d e c i s i o n h a d a l r e a d y b e e n m a d e t h e r e . S o t h e o n l y r o l e t h a t S A AT
p l a y e d w a s t h e s e l l i n g o f t h e d i s p o s a l o f t h e s e D P U ’s a s t o t h e B o a r d ’s
mandate.

Now just to give clarity in terms of why I said like the

understanding may have been they relied on the 30% set aside. I told
you Chair that on Friday Open Water had never given me or anybody
10

else who was involved in this transaction a chance to state their side of
the story because I promise now like I would not be sitting here if it
was – like they had given me that opportunity because I would have
explained to them that – in fact we found out in 2017 that JM has sent
– h a s s o l d t h e G P U ’s t o S w i s s p o r t a n d t h e n n o w O p e n W a t e r i s r e l y i n g
o n t h e a m o u n t t h a t t h i s – t h e G P U ’s w e r e s o l d f o r. A n d h o w I f i n d o u t
Chair because I thought I will get this opportunity to state that. How I
find out I found out through the media. I had not even seen the report
that time and that is why if you heard Friday as much as I was not
directing that point to Ms Hofmeyr because I know she is not acting

20

person – like I mean personal towards me on this thing she is on a
mission – a fact finding mission. At that time I felt that this whole GPU
thing was a way of getting to me in terms of the – because of the
person that I am. Because of what I was fighting for at that time which
o f c o u r s e h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e G P U ’s .

So I learnt about the

G P U ’s b e i n g s o l d t o S w i s s p o r t o n l y i n 2 0 1 7 . R e m e m b e r t h e B o a r d

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
awarded this in 2016 and then I was instructed with my other
colleagues to negotiate in 2016. But I found out that they were sold to
Swissport in 2017 when I read the Sunday Independent.

The article

was written by Steve Motale and specifically crafted to paint to the
p u b l i c t h a t A d v o c a t e M e m e l a h a s b e e n i n v o l v e d i n t h e s a l e o f G P U ’s .
And of course Chair when the public reads they think I have ran with
the whole process from the beginning like as I said this thing started
from SAA and I was not part of SAA negotiations. And it went to the
B o a r d o f S A AT. I w a s n o t p a r t o f – I w a s n o t a M e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d o f
10

S A AT I o n l y j o i n e d – I o n l y j o i n e d t h e m e e t i n g t h r o u g h a n i n v i t e . S o t h e
way it was – the article was written it was written to paint a picture to
t h e p u b l i c t h a t S A AT h a d l o s t t h e s e a s s e t s a n d t h e n m o n e y o n e a c h –
b a s e d o n A d v o c a t e M e m e l a ’s i n v o l v e m e n t . A n d t h e n w h e n I h a d t o n o w
explain to – during the disciplinary hearing to Advocate Cassiem and
also to CCMA that is when it all started getting clear to everybody that
actually Advocate Memela only started getting involved at the end of it
a l l . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d . L i k e I m e a n C h a i r I a m j u s t a s m a l l f i s h . I a m n o t
above the Board.

I am not above the CEO.

The Board is the

a c c o u n t i n g a u t h o r i t y o f S A AT. C E O i s a c c o u n t i n g o ff i c e r o f S A AT. B u t
20

if you notice from 2017 like from the media everything has been talking
a b o u t A d v o c a t e M e m e l a ’s i n v o l v e m e n t a n d s t u ff a s i f I w a s t h e o n e w h o
was initiating this whole thing.

A n d w h e n I s a t w i t h t h e Te a m , t h e

C o m m i s s i o n ’s Te a m , I r e m e m b e r A n d r e w – M r K u r l a n d k e p t o n s a y i n g i t
w a s i n t h e m e d i a . Yo u k n o w a n d I b e c a m e w o r r i e d a g a i n t h a t o k a y i t
l o o k s l i k e w e a r e g o i n g t o g o b a c k a g a i n t o M r S t e v e n M o t a l e ’s v e r s i o n

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
of – I mean painting the picture to the public that this is the person who
is responsible, who was involved in the decision making of this whole
thing.

Nobody is interested in the Board Resolution.

Nobody is

interested Chair in the discussion from SAA from the time when they
d i s c u s s e d a b o u t o ff e r i n g f i v e - y e a r p e r i o d c o n t r a c t t h a t w a s m e n t i o n e d
by Ms Hofmeyr on Friday to Swissport.

And then like included the

p r o v i s i o n t h e r e t h a t t a l k e d a b o u t t h e G P U ’s a n d t h e B E E C o m p a n y n o
o n e i s l o o k i n g a t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a l i s t o f p e o p l e t h e r e . To p –
top people and then from the Board of SAA they had decided on the
10

i s s u e o f S w i s s p o r t a n d G P U ’s a n d t h e n i t w e n t t o t h e B o a r d o f S A AT.
T h e y d e c i d e d o n t h e i s s u e o f G P U ’s a n d i n f a c t o n t h e i s s u e o f
d i s s o l v i n g d i s p o s a l o f t h e G P U ’s . B u t t h e f o c u s i s o n N o n t s a s a M e m e l a
because of the – the painted version that okay Nontsasa Memela knows
JM this way because of that and that. So I am glad that this question
is raised this morning so that we will be able to give that clarity and
s t u ff . B u t l i k e f o r m e I t h o u g h t C h a i r o f c o u r s e a s m u c h a s I a m – i t i s
relevant to bring me here so that I give my own version. But I thought
from 2017 this thing has been following the person who has never taken
a decision about it.

20

It has followed a person where I was not even

i n v o l v e d i n t h e d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t S w i s s p o r t y o u k n o w.

But – because

there is this link between JM and Nontsasa and Nontsasa being the
H O D S E M o f S A AT. S o l i k e t h e l i n k i s c o n t i n u o u s l y i t i s b e i n g c r e a t e d .
Ja. So I am saying Chair then when I got to know about the reselling
by JM to Swissport I got to know about it through the media. So like
my statement made here it does not mean that okay we knew at that

Page 13 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
t i m e t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o r e s e l l . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Well that answer may have been important for you to
g i v e a f u l l p i c t u r e b u t y o u n e e d t o g o b a c k t o M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t i o n . I t
may be that that answer seeks indirectly to give the answer to the
question.

The question was whether you ever raised the issue of

saying you ever said to the people who were involved here but – or to
J M w h e t h e r y o u e v e r s a i d b u t 3 0 % s e t a s i d e i s u n l a w f u l . Yo u k n o w i t
should not be done.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: That was the question ja.
MS MEMELA: Okay Chair I tend to talk a lot giving the background.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA:

I apologise for that.

But I think the point that I was

trying to make Ms Hofmeyr is that at that remember as I have said in
my statement we did not know there was going to be resale like from
b u y i n g f r o m S A AT.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S M E M E L A : To t h e s a l e – t o S w i s s p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
20

MS MEMELA: So of course the 30% set aside issue was not raised at
that time. Ja and we thought maybe them going to – remember Supply
Development Ms Hofmeyr it does apply to BEE Companies given the
sub-contracting kind of work from this multinational or maybe these
giant companies.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.

Page 14 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : S o i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n m a y b e w h e n t h e y b u y t h e G P U ’s
f r o m S A AT t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o m a y b e o p e r a t e t h e m l i k e f o r w h a t S A AT
p u r p o s e t h e y w e r e b o u g h t f o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

Like only half of Swissport.

So that was the

understanding at that time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: So it was the 30% set aside issue was never raised.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
10

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: There may be times when I will restrict you.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r

lawyer

will

know

what

areas

we

might

clarification at re-examination stage.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: But let us continue.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

So with your understanding that JM Aviation

w a s a c t i n g a s t h e a g e n t f o r S w i s s p o r t i n t h e p r o c u r i n g o f t h e G P U ’s ?
MS MEMELA:

Ms Hofmeyr we do not – Chair we do not call BEE

suppliers agents.

T h e c o r r e c t w o r d i n g i s S M M E ’s o r S m a l l B l a c k

Owned Companies. Agent is something else.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t .
MS MEMELA: Ja so that our understanding was that then because Mr

Page 15 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Ndzeku at that time was the Director of Swissport and it appeared that
they had – he had joint ventures with Mr Jules Aires who has been the
s u p p l i e r o f S A AT s i n c e 1 9 9 . A n d I w a n t t o m e n t i o n a g a i n C h a i r b e f o r e
you restrict me I am not going to take long. My understanding just like
f r o m M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t i o n s o n t h e S w i s s p o r t c o n t r a c t o n F r i d a y t h a t i t
appeared to me in fact as much as I complained that I – why should I
answer something about Swissport but it gave me light on something.
B u t M r Vu y o N d z e k u d i d n o t s t a r t o p e r a t i n g o r m a y b e h a v i n g a b u s i n e s s
with – between himself and SAA.
10

He has been on business between

SAA and – like I mean through Swissport for as far as back in 2012
b e f o r e I j o i n e d S A AT. I m a y h a v e k n o w n h i m d u r i n g t h e R o a d S h o w b u t
he has known SAA long time, long before me. Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o j u s t f o r a p o i n t o f c l a r i f i c a t i o n . W h e n y o u
w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h J M A v i a t i o n a b o u t t h e s a l e o f t h e S A AT G P U ’s d i d
you know that Mr Ndzeku was a Director of Swissport South Africa at
the time?
MS MEMELA: He had mentioned I think during our discussions I mean
y o u k n o w I d i d m e n t i o n t o y o u t h a t a f t e r t h a t R o a d S h o w.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Like we had talked a lot. Like I mean to an extent where
w e t a l k e d a b o u t o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h S A AT.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: So he did.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t .

Page 16 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS MEMELA:

But like on Friday when you were talking about that I

had forgotten.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t h a t i t i s f i n e .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s h e l p f u l f o r u s t o k n o w.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t y o u w e r e a w a r e o f t h a t .
10

M S M E M E L A : Ye s
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

The reason why I asked about the role of JM

Aviation as an agent is because the actual clause of the Swissport SAA
a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u w e r e i m p l e m e n t i n g a s S A AT i n t h e s a l e o f t h e
G P U ’s d o e s n o t r e f e r t o a n y e n t i t i e s o t h e r t h a n S A A a n d S w i s s p o r t .
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i l l r e c a l l I w i l l j u s t r e a d i t t o y o u . I f y o u
want to go to it I can give you the reference.
MS MEMELA: No I understand.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I j u s t w a n t t o r e a d i t i n t o t h e r e c o r d .
20

M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s a y s :
“The Handling Company that is Swissport as defined
in the agreement agrees to purchase and or arrange
the purchase ...(intervenes).”
ADV

L I N D E LWA

M B A N J WA :

Just

to

Page 17 of 216

remind

Ms

Hofmeyr

that

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O h s o r r y C h a i r.

I understand from the

transcribers that when Ms Mbanjwa makes an objection she needs to
come to the podium.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e o t h e r w i s e i t w i l l n o t b e c a u g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. What you can do for the future Ms Mbanjwa to
raise your hand then I will know that you wish to say something then
you can come to the podium.
10

A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u t h a t w i l l b e h e l p f u l C h a i r. I t i s
not an objection Chair I just wanted to remind Ms Hofmeyr that if she
can please give the page references.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : W h e n s h e r e a d s .
CHAIRPERSON: For your assistance.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

I think she probably – she was going to give I am

sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Indeed.

Of course I was just indicating

whether Ms Memela wanted to find the page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n I w a s g o i n g t o i n d i c a t e f o r t h e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e w e w e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m r e a d i n g f r o m E x h i b i t D D 2 5 A a t p a g e 3 1 6 .
That is the page that contains clause 8.2 of the SAA/Swissport
Agreement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e h a d l o o k e d o n F r i d a y a t t h e p r o v i s i o n s
of clause 8.2. It reads as follows:
“The Handling Company”
And I pause there just to assist that is Swissport under the
agreement.
“Agrees to purchase and or arrange purchase of all

10

r e c e n t l y a c q u i r e d s u r p l u s S A AT G P U ’s a t c u r r e n t
book value, fair market value or other such valuation
as mutually agreed.”
Do you see that Ms Memela?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C a n I a s k C h a i r f o r M s H o f m e y r t o r e a d f r o m 8 . 1
as well?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y 8 . 1 s a y s :
“As part of the continuous improvement of its BB B E E a n d p r o m o t i n g t h e g o v e r n m e n t ’s d e v e l o p m e n t
20

agenda the handling company that is Swissport will
sub-contract some of its services or enter into
agreements with 51% Black Owned Companies that
have the representation of all or either of women,
youth, disabled persons and military veterans for the
purchase

of

equipment

required

Page 19 of 216

as

part

of

its

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
investments to this agreement.”
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i t g o e s o n a t 8 . 2 .
MS MEMELA: Good.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d m y q u e s t i o n w a s , w h e n y o u w e r e d e a l i n g
w i t h J M A v i a t i o n y o u i n d i c a t e d y o u d i d n o t r e g a r d t h e m a s S w i s s p o r t ’s
agent, correct?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i n a p r o v i s i o n l i k e 8 . 2 t h a t s a y s t h e s a l e i s
10

g o i n g t o h a p p e n b e t w e e n S A AT a n d S w i s s p o r t h o w d o e s J M A v i a t i o n
enter the terrain then at all?
MS MEMELA:

Okay I understand that you have the e-mail from Ms

Jules Aires to Mr Malola-Phiri, do you have that?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s w e d o i n d e e d .
MS MEMELA:

Can you direct – yes – can you direct me to that

because I want to read it for the court.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Certainly just before we go there what I am

interested in is your understanding of the provision?
MS MEMELA: I need ...(intervenes).
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f y o u w o u l d l i k e t o g o t o t h e e - m a i l f o r t h a t
purpose I am happy to direct you?
M S M E M E L A : I a m g o i n g t h e r e f o r t h a t p u r p o s e . T h a n k s C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: If it might take time to find your junior could look for
it.

Page 20 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: And you deal with other questions.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k w e w i l l n e e d t o d o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d c o m e b a c k t o i t l a t e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h n o . I t i s a l r i g h t I h a v e i t i n f r o n t o f m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I j u s t s o m e t i m e s h a v e t o r e m i n d m y s e l f w h i c h
of the two bundles we are in.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i l l f i n d i t i n E x h i b i t D D 2 5 B a t 6 0 7 .
MS MEMELA: 607. Oh the additional file? Is it the additional?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s i t i s i n t h e B f i l e . I n d e e d . D D 2 5 B a t p a g e
607.
M S M E M E L A : I g o t i t C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o j u s t t o r e m i n d y o u t h e q u e s t i o n
was, in what role did you understand or in what capacity did you
u n d e r s t a n d J M A v i a t i o n w a s i n t e r a c t i n g w i t h S A AT i n s o f a r a s t h e s a l e o f
t h e G P U ’s w a s c o n c e r n e d w h e n t h e o n l y a g r e e m e n t w a s b e t w e e n
S w i s s p o r t a n d S A A f o r t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e G P U ’s ?

20

MS MEMELA:

Is it just me or your question has just changed?

Or

maybe the wording has changed.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I do not always – I do not have the ability to

repeat exactly the words I used 10 minutes ago.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So I am trying to just convey the essence of

Page 21 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
the question.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t w h e n y o u d r a w u s t o t h e e - m a i l a t p a g e
607 you understand the background from which I have asked the
question.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Would you like me to repeat it or are you

comfortable?
MS MEMELA:
10

Okay Chair I would like to state on record how I

understood her question to be.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s t h a t i s f i n e .
MS MEMELA: Which led me to come to this e-mail.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. W e l l i f y o u l i k e y o u c a n i n d i c a t e t h i s i s
h o w y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e q u e s t i o n e a r l i e r.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h i s i s y o u r a n s w e r.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: And that may or may not coincide with the question as
f o r m u l a t e d a f t e r.

20

MS MEMELA:

O k a y.

How I understood her question Chair was that

she wanted to find out from the provision that she read, Provision 8.2
o f t h e c o n t r a c t , b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t t a l k a b o u t a s p e c i f i c B E E C o m p a n y.
I t t a l k s a b o u t b e t w e e n S A AT o r S A A a n d S w i s s p o r t c o n t r a c t . H o w d i d I
find out or maybe conclude that JM was one of the agent or BEE
Company right?

I think that is the – that was my understanding.

Page 22 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Because they were not mentioned in this provision.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

O k a y.

So that is the reason then Chair that I thought

this e-mail ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t e d t h e e - m a i l j a .
MS MEMELA: Is relevant.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: The e-mail Chair was written in April 2016.
CHAIRPERSON: It is April 26th.
10

MS MEMELA: Ja we go back then to.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : To p a g e 6 0 8 C h a i r b e f o r e w e g e t t o 2 0 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA:

I t – m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i t w a s w r i t t e n a t t h e s a m e d a y.

So it was written by Mr Jules ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M E M E L A : To t h e t h e n A c t i n g C E O o f S A AT, M r A r s o n M a l o l a - P h i r i ,
a n d c o p i e d M r M u s a Z w a n e w h o w a s t h e C E O o f S A AT, b u t w a s a c t i n g
at SAA at that time and then copied Ms Sokhulu – Ms Khosi Sokhulu
20

and the subject Chair says re:
“ F o r m a l p u r c h a s e o ff e r o f h i s – h e i s s a y i n g t h a t
D i e s e l G r o u n d P o w e r U n i t s M o d e l M D E 1 8 K VA . ”
Now Jules says:
“Dear Arson Malola-Phiri, in accordance with the
S w i s s p o r t C o n t r a c t r e c e n t l y s i g n e d w i t h S A AT. ”

Page 23 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Here I think Chair he meant SAA, because the Swissport.
Contract was between SAA and Swissport.
“ W e a r e o ff e r i n g t o p u r c h a s e t h e q u a n t i t y 1 2 o f t h e
Ground Power Units. We will accept the units in as
i s w h e r e i s c o n d i t i o n a n d S A AT w i l l n o t i n c u r a n y
f u r t h e r c o s t s . P u r c h a s e p r i c e 2 2 5 0 0 0 e a c h . To t a l
purchase price will be 2 700 000.

Please can you

a r r a n g e f o r m e t o i n s p e c t t h e u n i t s a t S A AT ?

We

l o o k f o r w a r d t o y o u r a c c e p t a n c e o f o u r f o r m a l o ff e r.
C a n y o u p l e a s e c o n f i r m r e c e i p t o f o u r f o r m a l o ff e r ? ”

10

Now this e-mail Chair is coming from the CEO of JM. This is
before

Mr Malola-Phiri

goes

to

the

Board

with

the

submission

r e q u e s t i n g t o s e l l t h e G P U ’s . M r A r s o n M a l o l a - P h i r i r e s p o n d s .
“Dear Jules, I am in receipt of your e-mail below re
f o r m a l p u r c h a s e o ff e r i n r e s p e c t o f S A AT G P U ’s .
Whilst I understand the provision made in the
S w i s s p o r t S A A C o n t r a c t i n r e s p e c t o f s a l e o f G P U ’s .
I t i s i n c u m b e n t o n S A AT t o f o l l o w d u e a s s e t
d i s p o s a l p r o c e s s w h i c h w i l l i n c l u d e S A AT E x c o a n d
20

Board approvals. If there are compelling merits to
s a y a s o p p o s e d t o l e a s i n g o u t . S A AT w i l l s u b m i t a
b u s i n e s s c a s e m o t i v a t i o n t o d i s p o s e o f t h e G P U ’s a t
the Board Meeting scheduled for the third week of
May 2016.

Shall it be approved I will engage with

JM Aviation Ltd for conclusion of the transaction.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
H o p e y o u f i n d t h i s i n o r d e r. ”
This is the response from the Acting – the then Acting CEO of
S A AT. S o C h a i r t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e n w e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t J M i s t h e B E E
company of Swissport. It was through this e-mail, because remember I
s a i d o n F r i d a y.

We got an instruction for the – from the Acting CEO

a f t e r t h e B o a r d a p p r o v a l o f t h e s a l e o f G P U ’s t o s i t w i t h J M A v i a t i o n
a n d n e g o t i a t e t h e o ff e r.
W h i c h t h e o ff e r w a s s e n t t o M r A r s o n M a l o l a - P h i r i A p r i l , t h e
26th before the Board Meeting and then she – he referred to it that
10

these the processes that are going to be followed and then once the
Board approved and Exco approved we will then come back to JM.
Which is going back to JM he did that through myself and the
colleagues when he said we should what – negotiate the deal.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA:

So I hope I have answered.

If you – if I have left

something out you can actually add here.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. I w i l l f o l l o w u p t h e r e .
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Thank you so much.

I understood your

evidence to be you did not know until 2017 that JM Aviation then on sell
– s o l d t h e G P U ’s t o S w i s s p o r t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS MEMELA:

We – I had found out then that they were sold to

Swissport.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
MS MEMELA:

Through the report that was coming from Open Water

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Report, but I found that out from the media, Sunday Independent
written by Steven Motale.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e a n s w e r i s y e s ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

At the time that you were dealing with JM

Aviation in 2016 then.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d i d y o u t h i n k t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o d o w i t h
t h e G P U ’s a f t e r t h e y b o u g h t t h e m f r o m S A AT ?
10

MS MEMELA: As I have said on my statement Chair or maybe earlier
this morning. I said our understanding and I did mention on Friday that
i n t h e – w i t h i n – d u r i n g t h e m e e t i n g t h e r e w a s t h e o w n e r o f t h e G P U ’s
Mr Chaile Makaleng.

H e H e a d s t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h a t o w n s t h e G P U ’s

a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s M r S t a n Vo s l o o a n d b o t h t h e s e g u y s a r e t e c h n i c a l –
technicians – former technicians and they know the technical split part
of things.
F o r m e I w a s s i t t i n g t h e r e t o e n s u r e t h a t o k a y m a y b e S A AT
gets value for money although I would not do it to the best of my ability
if we do not go out on a tender since the Board had already decided.
20

Ja.

O k a y.

I forgot.

Yo u s e e n o w t h i s t h i n g o f t a l k i n g t o o m u c h .

I

forgot the question.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . L e t m e g i v e y o u t h e q u e s t i o n a g a i n .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d J M A v i a t i o n w a s g o i n g
t o d o w i t h t h e G P U ’s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: Oh.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A f t e r i t b o u g h t t h e m f r o m S A AT ?
MS MEMELA:

O k a y.

My understanding at that time Chair was that

they were going to maybe operate them ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: For the people they were bought for ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA:
G P U ’s
10

were

B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h e r e a s o n S A AT b o u g h t t h e s e
that

they

were

going

to

provide

those

services

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S M E M E L A : To S w i s s p o r t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA:

But later on when the contract was never signed as

m e n t i o n e d b y M s H o f m e y r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA:

From 2012.

They were used for another people.

Not

t h e p e o p l e t h a t t h e y w e r e b o u g h t f o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m m . O k a y.
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a d n o u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e y w e r e i n
f a c t a c t i n g o n b e h a l f o f S w i s s p o r t w h e n t h e y p u r c h a s e d t h e G P U ’s ?
M S M E M E L A : H u h - u h . O k a y. C o m e w i t h s i m p l e E n g l i s h .
CHAIRPERSON: It was not your understanding ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: Ja.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON:

That they were acting on behalf of Swissport

...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: When they got involved with the purchase.
M S M E M E L A : C h a i r, m y u n d e r s t a n d w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e b u y i n g t h e m a s
the BEE company of Swissport and then maybe they will operate on the
subcontracted part of things.

Where they will then be operating the

G P U ’s f o r w h a t S A AT w a s g o i n g t o u s e t h e m f o r w h e n t h e y w e r e i n i t i a l l y
bought in 2012.
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: So that was my understanding.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

Let us then move to the Board

Resolution Ms Memela, because I do understand from your evidence
and you emphasised this on Friday and you have emphasised it again
t o d a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u d i d n o t t a k e t h e d e c i s i o n t o s e l l t h e s e

G P U ’s f o r S A AT . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n f a i r n e s s t o y o u I w a n t t o t a k e y o u t o t h e
Board – the Minutes of the Board Meeting at which the Board not you
made that decision.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o t o i t i f w e m a y, b e c a u s e p a r t o f y o u r

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
concern earlier as I understand it is that people have drawn links
between yourself and this arrangement that are unfair ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I w a n t t o s a y t o y o u w e a r e g o i n g t o r e m a i n
faithful not to media reporting, but to documents and your evidence in
t h e c o u r s e o f t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s .
MS MEMELA: I hope so.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So let us do that.

Let us go to DD25B.

It is

the smaller bundle in front of you and if you just go over the page to
10

p a g e 6 0 9 . Yo u w i l l s e e t h e M i n u t e s o f t h e M e e t i n g o f t h e S A AT B o a r d .
Do you have that?
MS MEMELA:

This is – Chair the extract of the meeting – of the

Minutes – of the main minutes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

S o j u s t f o r t h e C h a i r ’s u n d e r s t a n d i n g M s H o f m e y r I d o

not know if you remember I sent you the full Minutes of that Board.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Because now if we read this on record ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well wait for her question.
20

M S M E M E L A : O h . O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Wait for her question ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: Alright.
CHAIRPERSON:

Because it does say at the top there extract

...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: Of the Minutes.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: From the Minutes.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So we know that it is not the whole Minutes.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t u s d o i t t h i s w a y.

This is the extract

dealing with the item on the agenda for that meeting which is the
disposal of the Ground Power Units.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u r e g a r d a n y o t h e r p r o v i s i o n o f t h e M i n u t e s
as relevant you will direct us to them in due course. I am interested in
t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n a t t h a t m e e t i n g b y t h e B o a r d o f S A AT.
MS MEMELA: Huh-uh.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Related to item 4.4 which is the disposal of

Ground Power Units.

The matter that we are concerned with the

C o m m i s s i o n t o d a y.
MS MEMELA: Alright.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t r e c o r d s t h e r e i n t h e f i r s t p a r a g r a p h :
“The Board was requested to consider and approve
20

the disposal of 12 Ground Power Units as the
s e r v i c e s t h e y w e r e p u r c h a s e d t o o ff e r h a d b e e n
outsourced

to

an

external

service

p r o v i d e r,

Swissport, by SAA.”
Before I continue can I just confirm?
attendance

for

the

whole

of

this

Board

Page 30 of 216

Yo u w e r e n o t i n

Meeting

on

the

15th

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
of June 2016. Were you?
MS MEMELA:

I w a s n o t C h a i r. T h a t i s w h y I t h i n k I w a n t e d t o g o t o

those minutes because they are very detailed ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: But it fine. We will go ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O u r n o t i c e i s e n o u g h a s a n a n s w e r.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

MS MEMELA: Alright.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But you were invited to attend and were you

there for the conversation and debate around the disposal of the
Ground Power Units?
MS MEMELA:

I – a s m u c h a s I d o n o t r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t l y, b u t l i k e I

know that I was only invited for I think the logistics discussion.
CHAIRPERSON: Another item?
MS MEMELA: Ja. Logistics ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: On the agenda?
MS MEMELA: Item, yes.
20

CHAIRPERSON: So you are not sure whether you were there when the
Board discussed this item?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . Ye s , b u t I d o k n o w t h a t i t w a s t a b l e d b e f o r e I t h i n k
I walked in.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And did you familiarise yourself after the

meeting with a decision that the Board had taken in relation to the
Ground Power Units before you got involved in negotiating their sale
price?
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. M r M a l o l a - P h i r i s e n t u s t h e B o a r d R e s o l u t i o n a n d
not this extract of the Minutes. The Board Resolution.
CHAIRPERSON: He gave you the Minutes?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . N o . H e g a v e u s t h e B o a r d R e s o l u t i o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . N o t t h e s e e x t r a c t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So is today the first time that you are seeing

this extract?
M S M E M E L A : N o . To d a y i s n o t t h e f i r s t t i m e . T h e f i r s t t i m e I g o t t o
get these. It is when I was actually going to defend myself during the
disciplinary hearing and at the CCMA.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t .
MS MEMELA: So I dug all the information that I could use.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h r e f l e c t e d i n t h e s e M i n u t e s
o f t h e M e e t i n g o f t h e S A AT B o a r d o n W e d n e s d a y, 1 5 J u n e 2 0 1 6 i s a s

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
follows and I quote:
“ I t w a s r e p o r t e d t h a t t h e G P U ’s w o u l d b e s o l d t o
Swissport at their current asset value.

The Board

w a s i n f o r m e d t h a t S A A’s C o n t r a c t w i t h S w i s s p o r t
p r o v i d e d f o r S w i s s p o r t t o p u r c h a s e t h e G P U ’s f r o m
S A AT. ”
It then goes on and records:
“The

submission

proposed

that

S A AT

should

c o n s i d e r w h e t h e r t o r e c o v e r t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n
10

t h e p u r c h a s e v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s a n d t h e c u r r e n t
asset value from SAA.

The ICFO and GMLRC

i n d i c a t e d t h a t S A AT h a d b e e n u t i l i s i n g t h e G P U ’s
whilst SAA was resolving its contractual issues with
i t s g r o u n d h a n d l i n g s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r. T h e r e f o r e t h e
reduction

in

value

of

the

G P U ’s

was

due

to

depreciation and was not a loss.”
And then the Resolution is recorded.
“ I t w a s r e s o l v e d t h a t t h e d i s p o s a l o f S A AT ’s 1 2
d i e s e l o p e r a t e d G r o u n d P o w e r U n i t s , G P U ’s , a s a
20

result

of

SAA

awarding

the

ground

handling

services to an external service provider b, and is
hereby approved.”
MS MEMELA:
paragraph.

C h a i r, c a n I a s k M s H o f m e y r t o g o b a c k t o t h e t h i r d

Where it starts from the ICFO.

I know people who are

l i s t e n i n g . T h e y d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h o s e a b b r e v i a t i o n s a r e f o r.

Page 33 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS MEMELA: So I – ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on. She asked you a question.
MS MEMELA: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON:

I think wait until she asks you a question, because

everything we do must relate to the questions. If after she has asked
questions in your answer you think it is important to draw attention to
that. Then we can go there.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

So that was a recordal of

both what had been conducted in the course of the meeting as well as
the Resolution that the Board took and as I understood your evidence
e a r l i e r.

Yo u w e r e t h e n p r o v i d e d w i t h t h e R e s o l u t i o n i t s e l f .

Is that

correct?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . Ye s C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And after that point Ms Memela I understand

your evidence to be you were then tasked with negotiating the sale
p r i c e f o r t h e G P U ’s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20

M S M E M E L A : M y s e l f , t h e H O D f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h a t o w n s t h e G P U ’s
...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s M r M a k a l e n g .
M S M E M E L A : A n d – M r M a k a l e n g a n d S t a n Vo s l o o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r Vo s l o o .
MS MEMELA: The only person who could not make it to that meeting

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
was Mr Leon Roberts.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o y o u w i l l c o m e b a c k t o i t . T h a t
is the meeting of the 21st of June 2016. Is that correct? That you are
talking about.
M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r, b e c a u s e w e d o n o t h a v e t h e M i n u t e s
for that. So I would agree it will be that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e r e i s a n e - m a i l t h a t i s s e n t t o
you after the meeting by Ms Sokhulu.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h i c h t a l k s a b o u t t h e m e e t i n g t h a t d a y. T h a t i s
what I am basing my suggestion that it is the 21st of June meeting.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. S o l e t u s g o t h r o u g h w h a t y o u d i d a f t e r
this Board Resolution was taken to now negotiate the price.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e n o w g o b a c k t o h e r a ff i d a v i t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Well it is going to be a few documents I will

t a k e y o u t o C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w a n t t o k n o w f i r s t o f a l l w h e t h e r y o u w e n t a n d
20

f o u n d o u t w h a t S A AT h a d p u r c h a s e d t h e G P U ’s f o r t h e y e a r b e f o r e .
M S M E M E L A : Yo u w a n t t o k n o w i f I h a d t o g o a n d f o u n d o u t i f S A AT
h a d – l i k e I m e a n h o w m u c h t h e y h a v e p u r c h a s e d t h e G P U ’s f o r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S l i g h t l y d i ff e r e n t .

had to. I asked you first whether you did.
M S M E M E L A : D i d I ? O k a y.

Page 35 of 216

I did not ask whether you

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u g o a n d f i n d o u t w h a t S A AT h a d p a i d

w h e n i t b o u g h t t h e G P U ’s t h e y e a r b e f o r e ?
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. C h a i r p e r s o n r e m e m b e r t h e B o a r d R e s o l u t i o n t a l k s
a b o u t t h e b o o k v a l u e . M y s e l f t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e o w n e r o f t h e G P U ’s a n d
M r S t a n Vo s l o o . W e d i d n o t g o b a c k t o t h e t i m e w h e n t h e G P U ’s w e r e
bought and the reason for that is that for that moment as well there was
n o t e n d e r t h a t w a s l i k e I m e a n S A AT w e n t o u t t o b u y t h e G P U ’s .
They negotiated with this specific company and no one is
s u r e t h a t f o r w h a t e v e r a m o u n t t h a t t h e y b o u g h t t h e m f o r – S A AT b o u g h t
10

them for – was the correct amount, because there is absolute no proof
t h a t t h e y h a d n e g o t i a t e d t h e a m o u n t o r t h e y j u s t b o u g h t t h e G P U ’s f o r
w h a t t h e B o a r d h a d a p p r o v e d f o r, b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t
sometimes the Board will approve R500 and then from the procurement
point of view it is your duty to go and negotiate and try and save as
much as you can.
So I think the reason at that time that we did not want to go
back to that is because the Board had approved for the specific amount
and then the people who bought these in that that time bought them
exactly for the amount that was approved by the Board.

20

It did not

really sit well with us, because like relying on that at the end of the day
does not determine the price or the amount that they should be sold
f o r.
That is the reason why I was – I wanted to go back to where
the Interim CFO at that time and the GM Legal made that statement,
but Chair we did not go – like I mean the response is that we did not go

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
back to that. We relied on the – what was there in the book value at
t h e t i m e a n d I d i d m e n t i o n – I d o n o t k n o w.

Maybe it is not in the

documents here.
I d i d m e n t i o n t h a t t h e s y s t e m t h a t S A AT w a s u s i n g w a s
outdated long time ago with a software that is outdated. So the book
value whatever that was put there was not like really stick.

So like I

m e a n w e h a d t o r e l y o n o t h e r, j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y.

So can I just make sure I understand?

Yo u d i d n o t l o o k a t t h e p u r c h a s e p r i c e f r o m a y e a r e a r l i e r, b e c a u s e y o u
10

were concerned that that did not represent fair market value.

Is that

correct?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . I t d i d n o t r e a l l y r e p r e s e n t t h e f a i r m a r k e t v a l u e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then you started talking about the book

value.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e . Yo u d i d
consider the book value.
20

MS MEMELA:

The book value was considered looking at the MEMIS

record and I think maybe it will be from Mr Chaile Makaleng and also
checking with finance.

Remember Chair during the Board Meeting.

That is the reason why I wanted like to go to the full minutes. There
was a CEO – CFO ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : O f S A AT s i t t i n g t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Remember the Asset Register is ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: Is maintained and managed by finance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

So my understanding him sitting there with the Acting

CEO submitting to the Board what he was submitting being the book
v a l u e o r w h a t e v e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA:

Ve r s u s I m e a n w h a t i s a c t u a l l y i n t h e A s s e t R e g i s t e r

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: And ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: Book value.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: Ja. So ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well we can go to those minutes if they are here. If
20

that will assist you to give ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: The response.
CHAIRPERSON: An answer ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: That you want to give.
MS MEMELA: I request we go to that ...(intervenes).

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Because I think it will give a clear clarity of what I want.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ja.

Yo u w i l l h a v e t o f i n d t h e m M s M e m e l a .

They were – I understand you say they were amongst the annexures
that you provided to the Commission, but I explained at the outset of
your evidence that they had never been identified with cross reference
to your statement.
So they have just been assembled for your benefit after your
10

statement, but I am not on top of those documents. So we will need to
find them. I asked my junior to assist me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To – j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o w h a t w e w i l l d o M s M e m e l a .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms Dimbikiwa will try and look for them – your own

lawyer will try and look for them while we continue with other
questions.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s , s i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

And then at a later stage we will come back to the

question once somebody has found them.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela, can I just get clarity though.

I

understood your evidence earlier to be you had not seen the Minutes of
those – of that meeting at the time that you were negotiating the sale

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
price.

I understood your evidence earlier to be you only saw them

much later when you were preparing for your CCMA case.

Is that

correct?
M S M E M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . Ye s C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s v e r y h e l p f u l , b e c a u s e t h e n a n y t h i n g t h a t
is contained in the Minutes is not going to assist in understanding what
was in your mind and what you were doing at the time that you were
negotiating. Is that right?
MS MEMELA: No. That is not right. That is not my understanding.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

L e t u s t r y a n d g e t t h a t o u t o f t h e w a y.

Ms Memela ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: I think you are looking for the Minutes. Let us stop
l o o k i n g f o r t h e M i n u t e s f o r n o w.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

So that we can continue with other questions, but

your lawyer and junior counsel to Ms Hofmeyr will be looking will be
looking for those minutes in the meantime.
20

Yo u m u s t j u s t r e m e m b e r

that at some stage we go back to them if it is necessary ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

But I do not understand your answer to Ms Hofmeyr

when she says if at the time you were not aware of the Minutes.
Whatever is in the Minutes could not have been a factor in terms of
your understanding and you say no. That is not right.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: Do I misunderstanding something?
MS MEMELA:

The reason I put it like that Chair was that what is

written in the Minutes is supporting our understanding at that time. As
much

as

we

did

not

see

the

Minutes,

but

like

that

was

our

understanding. Myself and the colleagues that were sitting during the
negotiations.
CHAIRPERSON: No. That is fine. So it is not that you were aware of
the Minutes at the time.
10

MS MEMELA: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

It is just that you had a certain understanding

...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: And subsequently you saw something in the Minutes
that supports your understanding.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: That is what you say?
MS MEMELA: That is what I am saying.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . M s H o f m e y r.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Ms Memela, do you accept

t h a t t h e A c t i n g S A AT C E O t h o u g h t t h a t t h e b o o k v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s w a s
relevant to the price at which they should be sold given what he
included in his submission to the Board?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

The book value that was put by Mr Malola-Phiri

was in the submission ...(intervenes).

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
MS MEMELA: Before the Board. I agree.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d l e t u s j u s t l o o k a t w h a t t h e b o o k v a l u e w a s
a t t h e t i m e . Yo u w i l l f i n d i t i n y o u r D D 2 5 B b u n d l e a n d i t i s a t p a g e 6 11 .
M S M E M E L A : 6 11 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t I h a v e a t 6 11 d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o l o o k l i k e w h a t
10

you have.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I a m a l s o w o r r i e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Oh. No, no. I think what you have in your hand
i s w h a t i s d i ff e r e n t f r o m w h a t I h a v e , b u t w h a t y o u h a v e o n t h e n e x t
page there seems to be ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .

I t i s y o u r 6 11 .

Oh, goodness.

It is

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t i s m y 6 11 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ve r y w o r r y i n g .

Well I think there is another

l o c a t i o n f o r t h i s i n M r H u m a n ’s a ff i d a v i t , b e c a u s e h e w a s t a k e n t o t h a t .
20

MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a y b e w h a t I d o f o r n o w i s j u s t r e a d i t i n t o t h e
record.

I a m c o n c e r n e d t h a t t h e r e i s a d i ff e r e n c e i n t h e p a g i n a t i o n

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But it was an aspect that he confirmed in his

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
evidence before the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a i f y o u . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d l i k e t o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h i n k M s M b a n j w a w a n t s t o s a y s o m e t h i n g .
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

I just wanted to put on

record ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Come closer to the mic.

Otherwise you will not be

recorded.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I w a s a l s o l o o k i n g a t t h e
reference. I do not see the book value. So I wanted to point out that
what I have been referred to in the record ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I s n o t w h a t M s H o f m e y r . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I s t a l k i n g a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

If it is possible it might be helpful if you sat

m u c h c l o s e r t o M s H o f m e y r.
20

M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

S u b j e c t t o h e r o w n s t u ff t h e r e , b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s

you can just whisper to her something or make a note and give to her
...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r, c a n I . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e p r o b l e m a t i c ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I am just about to direct Ms Mbanjwa to the

Human bundle ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Which I see is in front of her and it is very

d i ff i c u l t t o m o v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t i s j u s t f o r n o w . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e I w a n t e v e r y o n e t o h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n f r o n t o f t h e m . C e r t a i n l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

There seems to be – have been some error

b e t w e e n m y c o p y o f M s M e m e l a ’s b u n d l e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But it is not a problem, because we have the

very same page in the Human bundle ...(intervenes).
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e a s I i n d i c a t e d h e h a d t e s t i f i e d a b o u t i t
earlier in the week ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M r H u m a n ’s a ff i d a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s h a v e

previously been provided to Ms Memela.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t b e f o r e w e d o t h a t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e r e w e n e e d t o g o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

That box – the second box between you and

Ms Mbanjwa ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Does it have to be there, because if it can be

r e m o v e d . S h e c o u l d c o m e c l o s e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s p r e f e r a b l e . L e t u s d o t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Because some of the issues – she could make a note
10

for you. Bring something to your attention without ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Us stopping the proceedings.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe let us try and to that and even – although it

c a n s t i l l b e b r o u g h t c l o s e r.

It is just going to help with the smooth

...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Running of the proceedings. Of course you - you do
n e e d t o h a v e y o u r s t u ff t h e r e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: But I think that will help.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m c e r t a i n i t w i l l .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r, i f I c a n r e q u e s t M s H o f m e y r ?

which file that …(intervenes)?

Page 45 of 216

Can you direct

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w a s a b o u t t o .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . S o M s M e m e l a a t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – y e s , s o . I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r. S o s o m e t i m e s
you can just make a note and bring it to her attention and she can take
that into account.

If there is a problem she will say okay let us stop

and then we can – you can articulate, but sometimes she will be able to
address what you are saying without us stopping the proceedings.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ve r y g o o d C h a i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

We are indebted.

second copy of the same document is in Exhibit DD22B.

The

That is the

s e c o n d f i l e o f M r H u m a n ’s b u n d l e a n d y o u w i l l f i n d i t t h e r e a t p a g e 6 9 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat the bundle.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D D 2 2 B a t p a g e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Can you see it Ms Memela?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 6 9 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
MS MEMELA: At page?
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 6 9 4 . T h i s i s a n e x t r a c t f r o m t h e A s s e t R e g i s t e r
as it was in June 2016. Do you see that Ms Memela?
MS MEMELA: As it was in June 2016?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r, n o t t o b e p r o b l e m a t i c o r a n y t h i n g .

I see a

document that was done in an Excel spreadsheet and then with

Page 46 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
s o m e t h i n g w r i t t e n J u n e 2 0 1 6 w i t h s o m e b o d y ’s h a n d a n d t h e n i t h a s g o t
some signatures in the corner which does not really say who signed.
Was it the person who is responsible for Asset Register or not, but that
is what I see and my understanding in Asset Register should be as
formal as possible as much information as possible and this to me –
this is exactly what I had disputed at the CCMA and during the
disciplinary to Advocate Cassim and which he accepted that this cannot
b e a c c e p t e d a s a f o r m a l A s s e t R e g i s t e r, b e c a u s e a n y b o d y c o u l d h a v e
put whatever that they want to put and it was only the representative of
10

the employer who had that at the time.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS MEMELA: So I am not sure then if mister – who signed this. Who
was managing it at that time and whatever?
CHAIRPERSON:

So you say that you see a document here, but you

c a n n o t a c c e p t t h a t i t r e f l e c t s w h a t w a s i n t h e A s s e t R e g i s t e r.

Is that

what you are saying?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .

I am saying also Chair remember the book value

should rely on the system which was MEMIS at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
20

MS MEMELA: So there is no attachment. Maybe that is coming from
MEMIS.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA:

That states how much did MEMIS say at that time

...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

Page 47 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: In the book value, ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a y o u n e v e r s a w t h i s d o c u m e n t w h e n
you were negotiating the sale price. Is that correct?
M S M E M E L A : N o . D e f i n i t e l y n o t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H a n g o n . M s M b a n j w a .
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I a l s o h a v e a n o b j e c t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : To t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n p r e s e n t e d ,
because there is an e-mail that was produced. I just want the page of
10

the e-mail and in the e-mail these Ground Power Units were given a
name.

They were called HISH-something.

I just want to get that e-

mail.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I think what you may wish to do is make a note.
L e t u s s e e w h a t M s H o f m e y r ’s r e s p o n s e o r r e a c t i o n i s t o t h e a n s w e r
given by the witness and bear in mind that clarification could be given
l a t e r.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

I think Chair I may have to be guided

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
20

M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B e c a u s e C h a i r h a s s a i d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

This Commission has been sitting for one

and a half years.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : A p a r t f r o m t h e v e r y l o f t y p o s i t i o n t h a t C h a i r

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
has ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I n t h e j u d i c i a r y. W h a t M s H o f m e y r i s d o i n g
– the way I see it.

She is making Ms Memela answer questions on a

document. The correctness thereof is not acceptable to us or to put it
i n a n o t h e r m a n n e r. A l l I w a n t M s H o f m e y r t o d o i s t o s a y a t l e a s t t h a t
these assets that are described here are the GP Units that we are
referring to. That is basically our objection.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o . I a m s a y i n g t h e w i t n e s s h a d j u s t g i v e n
10

her answer and I do not know if she had finished and Ms Memela had
not – Ms Hofmeyr had not had a chance to respond – to react to the
a n s w e r. T h e r e a c t i o n t o t h e a n s w e r c o u l d b e y e s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u
s a y, b u t t h e r e i s a n o t h e r d o c u m e n t .
I will take you to that document at some stage. The reaction
could be no.

I – maybe you are mistaken Ms Memela about this

document. So let us go on and let us see ...(intervenes).
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I a m p r e m a t u r e . A s i t p l e a s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s y o u a r e p r e m a t u r e . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
MS MEMELA:
20

C h a i r, I w a s j u s t a b o u t f i n i s h e d t h e n a n d t h e n

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Yo u h a d n o t f i n i s h e d y o u r a n s w e r ?
MS MEMELA: I had not finished.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. That is the point I am making, ja.
MS MEMELA: Ja, but I am not going to take long.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J u s t f i n i s h y o u r a n s w e r.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : J u s t f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d f o r r e c o r d .
I j u s t n e e d e d t o – I k n o w – a m I a l l o w e d t o a s k a n E v i d e n c e L e a d e r,
because I want to understand this document in front of us.
CHAIRPERSON: Ask for clarification.
MS MEMELA: Clarification.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n a s k f o r c l a r i f i c a t i o n .
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

I would like to ask Ms Hofmeyr there are dates

here that are under “capitalised on”. I just want clarify on that if you
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h o s e d a t e s w e r e f o r.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . I w a s n o t e m p l o y e d a t S A AT a t a n y p o i n t .
M S M E M E L A : O h . O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S M E M E L A : Yo u s e e n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well let us go back to the question.

O k a y.

I think

just stop there.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

To o m u c h h a s h a p p e n e d s i n c e t h e q u e s t i o n w a s

asked.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s t i o n M s H o f m e y r. I j u s t w a n t
to ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t .
MS MEMELA: Because I just need clarity Chair on the June 2016 one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m a k e s u r e . H a n g o n . H a n g o n .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : O h . O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s t i o n . Yo u l i s t e n t o i t a n d
you give a crisp answer to it.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela you confirmed you had not seen

this document before you engaged in the negotiations of the GPU sale
price. Correct?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . I c o n f i r m e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

I do not need to deal with the

document any further then, if you did not see it at the time.
10

MS MEMELA: Oh. So there is this ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

What

I

would

then

like

to

go

to

is

...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

The submission that Mr Phiri who was the

Acting CEO prepared for the Board before he took the decision to sell
t h e G P U ’s , b e c a u s e M r P h i r i s p e n t s o m e t i m e l o o k i n g a t t h e b o o k v a l u e
o f t h e G P U ’s a n d m a d e s u b m i s s i o n s t o t h e B o a r d a b o u t w h a t t h e b o o k
value was.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f w e c o u l d g o t h e r e . Yo u r . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS MEMELA: Chair ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : I f e e l t h a t i t i s t o o e a s y.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MS MEMELA: Or maybe it will not give clarity to the public or our – I

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
mean people who had read about this whole thing in the media
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: And I am glad I see NUMSA is here.

They have been

quite interested in this GPU issue.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MS MEMELA:

If Ms Hofmeyr decides not to deal with that document,

because I have had a relevant question asked about the dates.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MS MEMELA: Remember when Open Water ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: Reached a wrong conclusion ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S M E M E L A : O n t h i s m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: I am still going to add that like they actually even used
the wrong provision of the SCM to reach their conclusion.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

20

So their conclusion was based on this documentation.

That is why I said I actually only started like I am seeing this during my
disciplinary hearing ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA:

And then at the CCMA where I had to actually defend

myself ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: And clear myself from this whole thing ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: But now if when I ask a question.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: Maybe – and then because there are no answers. Like a s M s H o f m e y r s a i d I w a s n o t a n e m p l o y e e o f S A AT.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:
10

Remember like she was going to use this as evidence

and ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: But she ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: And now ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on. Hang on.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on Ms Memela
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I understand your concern about maybe certain

aspects not being asked or not been dealt with to your satisfaction at a
particular point in time, but she is there to lead evidence in regard to
20

what is relevant and important to the Commission.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

It may be that some things that she regards as

relevant and is important to the Commission are not the same that you
regard as important and relevant to be dealt with, but where she asks
you a question and to answer it you need to look at a document I will

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
allow you to do that.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Subject to the ambit of the question ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : F a i r e n o u g h C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

But your lawyer is there to keep an eye on some of

the things that she knows having consulted with you may be important
for you and that at a later stage when she gets an opportunity to reexamine she could then look at some of the answers you had given and
g i v e h e r a c h a n c e t o c l a r i f y.
10

M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: So ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: It if fair enough.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r a n d j u s t i n e x p l a n a t i o n b e f o r e I m o v e t o
the next question. The part of the evidence that we are interested in at
t h e m o m e n t i s M s M e m e l a ’s r o l e i n n e g o t i a t i n g t h e s a l e p r i c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

It is for that purpose that I am seeking to

establish through the questions of Ms Memela what she knew at the
time. When Ms Memela indicates to me she did not see a document at
the time I must leave it ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Because it was then not something that was

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
weighing ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n h e r m i n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I h a v e n o w m o v e d t o t h e n e x t p l a c e .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Where there was an indication of what the

asset value was ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Because I am then going to ask Ms Memela

whether she had that knowledge ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s n o i n t e n d e d u n f a i r n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I cannot persist in a line of questioning

...(intervenes).
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i t h t h e w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Where I am trying to establish her state of

knowledge ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

When I present her with a document and she

says she did not see it ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I m u s t t h e n m o v e o n w i t h . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r l e a v e C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . N o . T h a t i s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o I m o v e o n
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To E x h i b i t D D 2 2 B a n d t h a t i s t h e H u m a n e x h i b i t
a n d i f y o u p i c k i t u p a t p a g e 8 11 .
CHAIRPERSON:

H’mm.

I see we are at the time that – when we

normally take the tea break.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: I propose not to take the tea break unless either the
20

w i t n e s s o r y o u , M s H o f m e y r, n e e d s s o m e b r e a k , b e c a u s e I a m g o i n g t o
– w e a r e g o i n g t o h a v e a n e x t e n d e d l u n c h t o d a y, b e c a u s e I n e e d t o
attend to another commitment in my other capacity that is urgent. So
our lunch will be longer than normal. Maybe two hours.
So I am – I want us to use this tea break if we can, but if
e i t h e r t h e w i t n e s s o r M s H o f m e y r, b e c a u s e t h e y a r e t h e o n l y o n e s w h o

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
cannot sneak out while they were talking. If they are fine to continue
without a break we will, but if one of them wishes to have some break.
Then we will have a break. Ms Memela, you would like to have a break.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA:

The reason why I am raising this without my lawyer is

that remember on Friday I had mentioned that I was supposed to drive
down to Eastern Cape and I ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MS MEMELA:

Yo u h a d a s k e d f o r M o n d a y m a y b e t o u s e t w o t o t h r e e

hours ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: But I want to give – to inform you that we are okay with
t h e w h o l e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o l e d a y. O k a y.
MS MEMELA:

So you do not have to be under pressure as long as

everything when we leave here is as clear as possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Is finalised?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

No.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you

v e r y, v e r y m u c h f o r t h a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s M e m e l a y o u a r e h a p p y t o p r o c e e d ?
CHAIRPERSON: But as for the break you do not have a problem?
M S M E M E L A : A b r e a k w e d o n e e d i t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d s o m e b r e a k ?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r, i f I m a y m a k e t h e r e q u e s t t h e n ?
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Just in the break if Ms Memela could find the

M i n u t e s s h e w a s l o o k i n g f o r. W e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o f i n d t h e m i n t h e
annexures that she provided, but she can obviously use the break just
10

to go through them and assist us with where they are in the bundle
...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n w h e n w e r e t u r n w e w i l l d e a l w i t h t h e
S A AT C E O s u b m i s s i o n .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

O k a y.

Then we will take the tea break.

It is

11 : 2 0 n o w. W e w i l l r e s u m e a t 11 : 3 5 .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

I would like us as far as possible to try and have a

smooth-running session. Now that does not mean, Ms Mbanjwa, that if

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
there is something you feel strongly about you should not raise it, but I
w o u l d l i k e a l l o f u s t o t r y.
Ms Memela this is also directed at you. I would like us to try
and run as smoothly as possible. In the process, I would like you to try
to

give

crisp

answers,

short

answers

to

short

questions

and

M s M b a n j w a i s t h e r e t o , s h e k n o w s y o u r s t o r y, s h e h a s t a k e n
instructions from you, she will be alive to somethings that you might
wish to have clarified later on.
MS MEMELA:
10

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

But apart from that, when you are done, when

Ms Hofmeyr is done, either before Ms Mbanjwa re-examines you I will
give you a chance to deal with other matters that are relevant to some
of the questions which you think might be part of putting your case
p r o p e r l y t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n . O k a y.
MS MEMELA:

T h a n k s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

But I would like us to go quickly and smoothly with

regard to questions and answers. So, and the shorter the answers, the
b e t t e r.
MS MEMELA:
20

O k a y. .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u , M s H o f m e y r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r. B e f o r e w e b r o k e f o r t h e t e a

a d j o u r n m e n t w e w e r e g o i n g t o b e l o o k i n g a t E x h i b i t D D 2 2 B a t p a g e 8 11 .
CHAIRPERSON:

I think I am looking at the wrong one.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t h i n k C l a i r e i s a s s i s t i n g . P a g e 8 11 o f E x h i b i t

DD22B. Ms Memela what is this document?

Page 59 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

Chair this is the Site Board submission.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

And who was it compiled by?

Based on the signature and based on who is it from. It

A c t i n g C E O S A AT, M r A r s o n M a l o l a - P h i r i .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

And the date of the document?

The date was 15 June 2016.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e s a w p r e v i o u s l y, t h e e x t r a c t f r o m t h e

Minutes indicated that the Board Meeting was also on the 15th of June
2016. Does that accord with your memory?
10

MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Let us go if we may to the bottom of page 812.

Yo u w i l l s e e t h e r e a t t h e b o t t o m 8 1 2 t h e r e i s a h e a d i n g u n d e r 6
“financial implication”, do you see that?
MS MEMELA:

F i n a n c i a l i m p l i c a t i o n s ? Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Could you read into record what Mr Phiri the

a c t i n g C E O o f S A AT r e c o r d e d u n d e r f i n a n c i a l i m p l i c a t i o n ?
MS MEMELA:

O k a y.

“Financial implication: Each unit was purchased at
a cost of R766 165.10.
20

Each with a total cost of

nine million hundred and ninety-three, nine five or
n i n e s i x o n e , i s i t n i n e e i g h t o n e , t w e n t y, e x c l u d i n g
shipping costs. The current value of each unit per
SAA Asset Register is at six eighty-two eight ninety
sixty-two.

Selling the units at current asset value

should realize an income of 4.7 million.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON:

Four

million,

seven

hundred

and

eighty

...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

F o u r m i l l i o n s e v e n h u n d r e d a n d e i g h t y, t w o t h i r t y - o n e

f o r t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

Ms Memela it appears from this

document that Mr Arson Phiri the then acting CEO did have cause to
look at the Asset Register and reflect the amount in the Asset Register
do you agree with that?
10

MS MEMELA:

I would think so because this amount that he has

written here is the same as what was written there on the Asset
Register that we rejected, that was written by hand 2016 although it
had ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o , i t i s a c t u a l l y d i ff e r e n t . B u t w e d o n o t n e e d

to go back to that document ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

That amount yeah?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , s o h i s a m o u n t h e r e , h a v i n g l o o k e d a t t h e

Asset Register is R862 890.62 per unit.

Correct?

N o w, d i d y o u h a v e

reason to discuss with Mr Phiri what he had said in his submission to
20

t h e B o a r d ? O h , s o r r y C h a i r, I s e e t h e r e i s a n o b j e c t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh okay+

.
M S M B A N J WA :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

The basis of the objection is the

fact that what we asked when we objected for this first time Chair is to
s a y, l e t u s h a v e a p r o p e r A s s e t R e g i s t e r, s o t h a t t h e q u e s t i o n s t h e n c a n

Page 61 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
p e r t a i n t o t h e p r o p e r A s s e t R e g i s t e r.
T h i s i s s t i l l n o t a p r o p e r A s s e t R e g i s t e r. A n d M s M e m e l a h a s
been asked to authenticate this document as if it is her document. She
is not the author of this document; therefore, she cannot confirm the
correctness of the contents of this document.

Otherwise that is

prejudicial.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, my understanding of the question was that

she was supposed to just give her own understanding.

I do not think

there was really a problem, but make a note when you re-examine, you
10

can clarify all of those things.
M S M B A N J WA :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela were you aware that the acting

CEO had indicated to the Board through this submission on the 15th of
J u n e 2 0 1 6 t h a t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e t h e n A s s e t R e g i s t e r o f S A AT, e a c h
u n i t ’s v a l u e w a s R 6 8 3 3 8 0 . 6 2 .
MS MEMELA:

N o C h a i r, I w a s n o t a w a r e . W h e n t h e a c t i n g C E O g a v e

us the instruction to sit and negotiate the proposal. What he gave us
was the proposal, that one page that talks to the GPU equipment, like
20

f r o m t h e S A A S w i s s p o r t c o n t r a c t , p l u s t h e B o a r d R e s o l u t i o n . Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

And as ...(intervenes).

Thank you.

Well I must say Ms Memela your

a n s w e r s a r e v e r y c r i s p n o w.
MS MEMELA:

J a , I a m t r y i n g C h a i r.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , y o u a r e d o i n g w e l l .

T h a n k s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then let us move to the meeting you had

on the 21st of June 2016. I understood your evidence previously to be
t h e M r M a k a l e n g a n d M r Vo s l o o a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e t i n g w i t h y o u , i s t h a t
correct?
MS MEMELA:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

M s M e m e l a b o t h M r M a k a l e n g a n d M r Vo s l o o

h a v e g i v e n a ff i d a v i t s t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n w h i c h t h e y d e n y h a v i n g
a t t e n d e d t h o s e m e e t i n g s . M r M a k a l e n g ’s I w i l l t a k e y o u t o i n a m o m e n t ,
is already in your bundle.
M r Vo s l o o ’s a ff i d a v i t c a m e t h r o u g h t h i s m o r n i n g C h a i r, s o i t
was added to the bundle this morning, but he has subsequently just in
the course of the hearing identified two typographical errors in his
a ff i d a v i t a n d s o h e h a s p r o v i d e d a f u r t h e r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t I
w o u l d l i k e t o b e g l e a v e j u s t t o h a n d t h o s e i n i f I m a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

They have already been paginated they will

come at the end of Exhibit DD25B and they are paginated from
p a g e 7 4 2 . T h e y h a v e b e e n p a g i n a t e d a l r e a d y.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e a ff i d a v i t s o f M r S t a n d t o n L e o n a r d Vo s l o o a n d

t h a t o f m i s t e r – o h b o t h o f t h e s e a r e Vo s l o o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h e y a r e i n d e e d .

O h , o k a y. I a d m i t a n d t h e y w i l l b e a d d e d t o E x h i b i t

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
25B and they will run from page 742 to page 750. Is that correct?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

I n d e e d C h a i r.

We are indebted.

Thank you.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Apologies, 751 I understand Chair goes right

to 751.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh yes, up to 751.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

Thank you.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela do you maintain in your testimony

to the Commission that despite the fact that both Mr Makaleng and Mr
Vo s l o o s a y t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t a t t h e m e e t i n g o n t h e 2 1 s t o f J u n e , t h a t
they were at the meeting.
MS MEMELA:
ADV

K AT E

I m a i n t a i n C h a i r.
HOFMEYR:

Right.

Let

us

look

at

the

proof

Mr Makaleng provides for having not attended the meeting.

that

And you

will find that in DD25B at page 630.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

One second. 25B.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

6 3 0 C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

630, yes.

25B.

Sorry let me put this in the right

place. 630, yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a i r t h a t i s t h e f i r s t p a g e o f M r M a k a l e n g ’s

a ff i d a v i t a n d I w o u l d l i k e t o d r a w M s M e m e l a ’s a t t e n t i o n t o o n e o r t w o
a s p e c t s o f t h e a ff i d a v i t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

S o r r y C h a i r, I a m n o t t h e r e . I s i t t h e f i l e o f M r H u m a n

or my file?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

No it is your file, so DD25B ...(intervenes).

Well Ms Memela I think we were on the same, I was

h a v i n g H u m a n ’s b u n d l e a s w e l l , I j u s t r i d o f i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A p o l o g i e s , t h e r e a r e f a r t o o m a n y A’s , B ’s , C ’s ,

e t c e t e r a . W e a r e i n M s M e m e l a ’s b u n d l e t h a t i s f o r t h e r e c o r d E x h i b i t
25 and we are in the “B” volume and we are looking at page 630.
MS MEMELA:
10

J a , I a m t h e r e C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

S o , t h e a ff i d a v i t c o m m e n c e s a t

page 630, and what Mr Makaleng goes on to deal with at page 631, is
his involvement in the sale of the Ground Power Units. There are just a
f e w p a r a g r a p h s I w o u l d l i k e t o h i g h l i g h t a n d t h e n a s k f o r M s M e m e l a ’s
comment.

We can pick it up at paragraph 7 on page 631.

What Mr

Makaleng says at paragraph 7 is:
“I was requested in early 2016 by Mr Arson MalolaP h i r i w h o w a s t h e a c t i n g C h i e f E x e c u t i v e O ff i c e r f o r
S A AT. H e e - m a i l e d m e a n d i n s t r u c t e d t o m e p r e p a r e
a s u b m i s s i o n f o r t h e s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s .

This was

not something I was in favour of as can be seen in

20

the example correspondence in Annexure CM1, but
I prepared a draft submission as instructed.”
Mr Makaleng goes on to explain how he had first drafted the
submission to suggest selling only seven of the 12 units and retaining
five.

But the relevant next paragraph I would like us to look at in its

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
o w n w o r d s i s o v e r t h e p a g e a t 6 3 2 , M r M a k a l e n g i n h i s a ff i d a v i t s a y s :
“The GPU value I included in the submission was
R682 890.62 each, which came out at the Asset
Register at the time subject to depreciation.”
Chair I just pause there to indicate for the record that is the
same amount that was included in the submission that the acting CEO
t h e n g a v e t o S A AT t h a t w e h a v e j u s t l o o k e d a t . A n d t h e n h e g o e s o n a t
paragraph 13 to say the following, he is talking about the meeting
scheduled for 21 June, he says, and I quote:
10

“I did not attend this meeting which was scheduled
f o r 2 1 J u n e 2 0 1 6 f r o m 11 : 0 0 t o 1 2 : 0 0 .

I did not

accept the invite that I would attend the meeting
because the invite to this meeting was sent to me
at 09:09 on the 21st of June 2016 at which time I
was attending our daily operations meeting (delay
meeting), which starts at 09:00 to 10:30, and would
not have been able to see the meeting invite in
time.
and
20

I was also not in favour of the transaction
would

not

have

attended

the

meeting

to

d i s p o s e o f t h e 1 2 G P U ’s . I h a v e n o t a t t e n d e d a n y
meeting with JM Aviation representatives to discuss
t h e s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s n o r p r i c i n g a t a n y s t a g e .

I

h a v e a l s o n o t a t t e n d e d a n y S A AT i n t e r n a l m e e t i n g
t o d i s c u s s t h e p r i c i n g o f t h e G P U ’s t o b e s o l d . ”
There is a reference in that paragraph to an Annexure CM4

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
which I would like to take us to because that is the meeting invite which
M r M a k a l e n g a t t a c h e s t o h i s a ff i d a v i t .

Yo u w i l l f i n d t h a t t h e s a m e

volume DD25B at page 647.
MS MEMELA:

Page?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

647.

That – Mr Makaleng explains is the

meeting invite that he received. Ms Memela can you indicate the date
reflected on that page from the calendar of Mr Makaleng?
MS MEMELA:

The date?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

Is 21/06/2016.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you and then if you look at the bottom

right hand corner there is a box there that says GPU discussion.

Do

you see that?
MS MEMELA:

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Do you see that it gives a start time? What is

the start time of that discussion?
MS MEMELA:

T h e s t a r t t i m e 11 : 0 0 .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:
20

What is the end time?

12:00.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Who was indicated as the Organiser of that

discussion?
MS MEMELA:

It was Nontsasa Memela.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And what does it say at the bottom of that

block?
MS MEMELA:

This meeting has not been accepted.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t o n M r M a k a l e n g ’s

e v i d e n c e i n – o n a ff i d a v i t t h a t h e d i d n o t a t t e n d t h e m e e t i n g a n d t h e
proof that he provides for that?
MS MEMELA:

I have the comments Chair and I still stand by my

statement. I did say that he did attend the meeting and I did not refer
to the acceptance because I know that he had at first rejected the
meeting then he popped up before the meeting, I think it was 10
minutes before the meeting.
We went to the meeting, we attended it and we discussed
10

e v e r y t h i n g i n t h a t m e e t i n g w i t h t h e m h i m , a n d S t a n Vo s l o o . L i k e I s a i d
o n F r i d a y t h a t i n f a c t j u s t t o g o b a c k C h a i r s o t h a t I f i n i s h e a r l y, I s e e
that he says he was attending the delay meeting ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E MELA:

Another meeting J a .
Yes , that was s tarting from 0 9 :0 0 to 1 0:3 0 .

So, I

remember that he came in just 1 0 m i n u t e s b e f o r e t h e m e e t i n g s t a r t e d a t
11 : 00 . M eani ng l i ke I m ea n h e w as early e n oug h t o a t t en d t h a t m e e t i n g ,
s o h e c a m e h e r e j e c t e d i t , b u t h e w a s t h e r e , a n d I s a i d Fri d a y Chair and
I u nde rst a nd m y f ormer c olle a g u e s m a y b e t r y i n g t o d i s t a n c e t h e m s e l v e s
f r om t his b eca us e t here ha s b een so mu ch t h at wa s sa id a b ou t t hi s
20

t r ans ac t ion and of c ours e him s a y i n g t h a t h e w a s a g a i n s t t h e t r a n s a c t i o n ,
of course he was.
He did s a y t hat he wa n ted to h a ve seve n GPU ’s sold b ut t h e
a c t i n g C E O, n o t Nontsasa , c h a n g e d h i s s u b m i s s i o n t o 1 2 : 0 0, yo u
u n d e r s t a n d s o a n d a s t h e o w n e r o f t h e w h a t th e De pa rt me n t th at o wn s t h e
G P U ’s . I m e a n i t s h o u l d n o t e n d a t b e i n g i n f a v o u r o r n o t a g r e e i n g to th e

Page 68 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
s a l e o f G P U ’s . We a r e a l l HOD ’s .
I m ean m y un dersta nd ing is th at a t an e xecut ive level yo u ha ve a
f i d u c iary l ev el to a ct i n the b e st int erest o f t he com pa n y. S o a t l e a s t i f
we had that kind of an evidence that says, you see actually after I have
s h o wn m y u n h a p p i n e s s a b o ut t his sa y t h at th e Board h a d a l r e a d y
approved.
Th is is w ha t I di d , I re port ed to t he rele vant a ut hor it y. Chair we
work for the State Owned Companies a n d t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n p r o c e d u r e s
t hat hav e t o be f ol l owed like f or a pe rson w h o i s n o t h a p p y a b o u t a
10

certain transaction such as this one to show that you know what, they did
t hi s t hi ng wi t hout me a nd I w as not ha ppy and I sho we d it , he re i s p r o o f .
CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

So, you are saying two or three things?

Yes , Chair.

CHAIRPERSON :

O n e i s , y o u s a y; w h a t h e s a y s i n h i s a ff i d a v i t t h a t h e

did not attend that meeting is not true.
M S M E M E L A:

I s not tru e Ch air.

CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

I st and b y my e vid e nce.

CHAIRP ERSO N:
20

You s tand by y our ev idenc e that he did c ome.

You ev en remembe r that he arrived about 1 0 m i n u t e s

before the meeting could start.
M S M E M E L A:

Yes , Chair.

CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

I ac ce pt t ha t he h ad reject ed the meet ing requ est .

CHAI RPE RS ON:
M S M E M E L A:

And you accept that he had d e c l i n e d ? I s t h a t r i g h t ?

Rejected th e invita tio n, Yes.

Yes , whic h is I do think he thought he will tak e longer in

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
t he del ay m e et i ng .
CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

Yes .

Th e del ay me et ing C ha ir is n ot a f or insta nce a n exe cut iv e

m e e t i n g , r e m e m b e r l i ke t h i s o n e i n v o l v e d t h e a s s e t t h a t w a s u n d e r h i s
department.

So, the delay meeting he could have sent his senior

m a n a g e r.
CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E MELA:

Somebody else.

Ja, so when he attended there and decided to come and

j o i n u s I t h o u g h t o k a y, h e t h o u gh t l i k e I m e a n h e i s i n a w h a t p r e s e n c e
10

will be important and he was there.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y, n o w t h a t h e d e c l i n e d i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u c a m e

t o k no w af t erw ard s o r i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u k n e w b e f o r e h e a r r i v e d 1 0
m i n u t e s t h a t h e h a d d e c l i n e d t h e r e q u e st.
M S M E M E L A:

I t hin k – I k n e w b e c a u s e a t f i r s t , h e a c c e p t e d i t a n d

during the disciplinary hearing Chair and the same day I had this
evidence.
CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

Yes .

Just that when I was sending it to the Commission, I could

n o t f i n d i t b u t I ca n look fo r it an d s e n d i t .
20

CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

He had accepted first and then later on rejected.

CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

Rejected.

Th en as c o lle a gu es.

CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

Yes .

And then he came.

Exactly, as colleagues I pi c k u p t h e p h o n e a n d th e n I sai d

Page 70 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
O w, C h i l l e , I m e a n w h y a r e y o u r e j e c t i n g . Yo u a c c e p t e d f i r s t a n d h e s a i d
I do n ot k now what , I do no t remember he sa id b u t wh a t I kno w is tha t h e
joined us for that meeting.
CHAIRPERSON :

And you agree with him that h e w as a g a i n s t t h e

t r ans a c t i o n ? But you say that he was there at the meeting?
M S M E M E L A:

I ag ree with him th at he w as a g ain st th e sale o f th e 1 2

G P U ’s . Ye s , h e w a s p r o p o s i n g h e e v e n d i d t h e s u b m i s s i o n t h a t l i k e s e v e n
should be sold.
CHAIRPERSON :
10

M S M E M E L A:

Yes , ok a y.
And then showed that to Mr. Arson M a l o l a -Phiri a c t i n g

CEO. Acting CEO showed him apparently the what you call the copy of
t he Swi ss po rt S AA contract that look my hands are tied as the acting
CEO. This thing says that we should sell a l l 1 2 o f t h e m . Yes .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. T h a n k y o u

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela are you aware that the award of

the arbitrator of your CCMA proceedings does not refer to this aspect of
your evidence? That he first accepted and then rejected it?
MS MEMELA:

Okay I did not quote my award when I was responding I

was not quoting the award from the CCMA.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No, indeed, so I am asking you are you aware

that the arbitrator did not reflect that in his award?
MS MEMELA:

Is it saying something opposite to what I am saying?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e a r b i t r a t o r ’s a w a r d r e s o l v e d t h i s i s s u e o n

t h e b a s i s t h a t t h e M r M a k a l e n g ’s r e j e c t i o n o f a t t e n d i n g t h e m e e t i n g h a d
not been made available in the course of the CCMA proceedings?

Page 71 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , a n d t h e f a c t t h a t C h a i r, O p e n W a t e r d i d n o t

approve – could not prove that indeed he changed his mind and go and
attended the meeting. So, it was like his word against mine.
CHAIRPERSON:

But I must just I think you if you say what you have

just said is part of what you testified about this at the CCMA, you can
s a y, t h a t i s w h a t I s a i d a t t h e C C M A .
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

If the award does not reflect that it might not reflect

but certainly if anybody goes to check the recordings, they will find that
10

I said it. If that is your evidence.
MS MEMELA:

T h a t i s m y e v i d e n c e , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t u s m o v e t o M r Vo s l o o i s h e a l s o g i v i n g

false evidence before this Commission when he says that he did not
attend the meeting?
MS MEMELA:

O k a y, c a n w e g o t o h i s a ff i d a v i t a n d t h e n .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , I a m j u s t a s k i n g f o r y o u r, w h e t h e r y o u

maintain your version that he did not attend the meeting?
MS MEMELA:
20

I m a i n t a i n m y e v i d e n c e , C h a i r, b e c a u s e a s I s a i d t h e

only person who did not attend who I know for sure that he was not
there was Leon Roberts being the Senior Manager of Inventory in
Logistics.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And Ms Memela you have emphasised Mr

M a k a l e n g ’s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y a s t h e o w n e r o f t h e s e a s s e t s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS MEMELA:

That is correct.

Page 72 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So, did he lead the discussions at that meeting

to arrive at a sale price?
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r, i t w a s n o t a b o u t w h o i s l e a d i n g t h e d i s c u s s i o n s ,

who is Chairing the meeting because remember I am the one who
actually called the meeting.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , h a n g o n .

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e y o u w e r e d o i n g v e r y w e l l I t h i n k w h e n I

asked you questions I put you back to you can say yes, he lead the
10

discussion or no, he did not lead the discussion.
MS MEMELA:

N o , h e d i d n o t l e a d t h e d i s c u s s i o n , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d t h e n w i l l y o u w a i t f o r t h e n e x t q u e s t i o n ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

Was it you who lead them?

I did not lead the discussions because I mean we let

the representatives of JM to put their story on the table based on the
proposal. No, I did not lead.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

So, who lead?

Yo u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o s a y w h o l e a d b e c a u s e

everybody was talking, I do not know ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

E x a c t l y.

CHAIRPERSON:

But just give the best answer that you can give if it is

clear who that somebody was leading the discussion you can say so
and so was leading if you are not sure who was leading because
everybody was talking.

Page 73 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

O k a y, C h a i r. M a y b e t h e p r o b l e m n o w i s t h a t m a y b e t h e

question how it is formulated in terms of leading the meeting, because
like I called the meeting ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe what you can do is, you can say who Chaired

the meeting, and then you can say whether there was somebody who
introduced this subject to the meeting and tell us who those are, and
then in terms of discussion whether you are able to say there was
somebody leading the discussion.
I f y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y, y o u s a y s o , s o a n d s o w a s l e a d i n g a s
10

far I am concerned. If you are not able, you say; I cannot say who was
leading.
MS MEMELA:

O k a y, b e c a u s e I c a l l e d t h e m e e t i n g C h a i r, t h e n I t h i n k I

may have been the one who opened the meeting discussions. I am not
running away from leading, because I have mostly Chaired meetings
and lead but this one I am saying, opening discussions and I was the
most I think active in asking questions because ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Yo u s p o k e b e c a u s e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
I even asked the one that, how did they reach the

amount that like the made the proposal to the acting CEO in April. That
20

is when they responded via e-mail saying thank you for the meeting and
then responded.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t u s t h e n g o t o M r Vo s l o o ’s a ff i d a v i t i f w e

m a y. Yo u w i l l f i n d t h a t i n t h e s a m e b u n d l e D D 2 5 B a t p a g e 7 4 2 .
MS MEMELA:

Is it not the one that was just ...(intervenes).

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, it is the one that has just been handed out.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Now I am going to ask us to look at Mr

S t a n d t o n L e o n a r d Vo s l o o f o r t h e r e c o r d t h a t i s V- o - s - l - o - o .

if we go

over the page to page 743, you will see a paragraph 6 he deals with
this meeting, he says there:
“I

have

been

interviewed

during

i n v e s t i g a t i o n s i n t o t h i s m a t t e r.

the

forensic

I am also aware

through these investigations and through interviews
with

the

investigators

at

the

State

Capture

Commission that Advocate Nontsasa Memela then
10

H O D p r o c u r e m e n t a t S A AT a l l e g e d t h a t I a t t e n d e d a
m e e t i n g o n 2 J u n e 2 0 1 6 a t S A AT. ”
Chair that is where the error has been identified.

The

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t a t p a g e 7 5 0 m a k e s i t c l e a r t h a t h e m e a n t t o
refer to the meeting we are talking about which is the 21 June meeting
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

2 1 ? O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Indeed, but just for reference purposes that

correction appears in Exhibit DD25B at page 750. He says – he goes
a n d I q u o t e f r o m h i s a ff i d a v i t :
20

“The meeting was apparently for discussions on the
s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s .

Reference to the meeting is

attached as per Annexure SV1.

The meeting was

allegedly with members of JM Aviation.”
At paragraph 7 he says:
“I deny that I was ever involved with or in any

Page 75 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
m e e t i n g w h a t s o e v e r w i t h t h e s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s
were discussed, any pricing was discussed or any
agreed price was reached.”
Ms Memela if I just stop there, is his evidence before the
Commission false?
MS MEMELA:

The part Chair that he did not attend the meeting is

false. The part where he said the price was not – the final price was
not reached in terms of negotiations is correct, because that is when
we had asked them to go home and then give us a background of how
10

did they reach the amount that they had proposed to the Acting CEO at
that time.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then at 8 – paragraph 8, he says:

“My only involvement was where I received an em a i l f r o m M r J u l e s H e i r s i n d i c a t i n g t h e o ff e r t o
p u r c h a s e a n d p r i c e o ff e r e d .

I then forwarded this

e - m a i l o n 11 J u l y 2 0 1 6 t o A d v o c a t e M e m e l a a s k i n g
if this was correct and that my department need to
issue the invoice.”
A copy of this e-mail trail is attached as Annexure SV2.
20

A d v o c a t e M e m e l a ’s r e s p o n s e w a s a n d t h e r e i s a n o t h e r c o r r e c t i o n h e r e .
He indicates that:
“The response was yessed, and this was the price
we agreed on.

This was on this e-mail that I

proceeded to draft an invoice.”
But he has corrected that again at page 750 because what Ms

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M e m e l a ’s e - m a i l r e f l e c t s w a s :
“ Ye s S t a n , t h a t w a s t h e r e v i e w e d p r i c e . ”
But let us go to the actual e-mail so that we can follow it, and
you will pick that up at page 747 in the same bundle DD25B.

Ms

Memela you may need to just go back a page to 746 so that we can see
the start of the e-mail.
The content of which appears at 747.

If you go right to the

bottom of 746 can you tell us what e-mail that is?
MS MEMELA:
10

S o , 7 4 7 w i l l b e i n M r H u m a n ’s t h i n g ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No, we are still in the same document that was

h a n d e d i n o f M r Vo s l o o . I t i s a n a t t a c h m e n t t o h i s e - m a i l s o i f y o u j u s t
go on further in the pack that you have in front of you, and you go to
page 746.
MS MEMELA:

O h o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Let us start at the bottom of that page. There

is an e-mail there right at the bottom from Khosi Sokhulu, do you see
that?
MS MEMELA:

At the 746 or 747?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Ye s , 7 4 6 r i g h t a t t h e b o t t o m i s t h e s t a r t o f t h e

e-mail. Do you see that?
MS MEMELA:

I see that.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

And who does Ms Sokhulu send the e-mail to?

M s S o k h u l u S i r, i s s e n d i n g t h e m e s s a g e t o A d v o c a t e

Memela.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And who else?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

It is just Advocate Memela.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I think also after that it says “Jules” does it

not?
MS MEMELA:

After that it is Jules.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , s o s h e s e n t t o b o t h y o u a n d J u l e s . W h o i s
Jules?
MS MEMELA: Jules is the CEO as per the proposal from JM – is the
CEO of JM. I do not know JM Aviation South Africa or JM International
but ...(intervenes).
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s t h e d a t e o f t h e e - m a i l ?
MS MEMELA: It was the 7th – no, no, it was the 21st of June 2016.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s t h e d a y y o u h a d t h e m e e t i n g , i s t h a t
right?
MS MEMELA: That is day of the meeting ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t t i m e w a s i t s e n t ?
MS MEMELA: At 14:39.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o 7 4 7 , w h a t d o e s M s

20

Sokhulu say to you in her e-mail?
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
“Dear Advocate Memela, thank you for meeting with us
today with regards to the Ground Power Units.

We

would like to give a brief explanation as to how we
r e a c h e d o u r o ff e r, p r i c e o f 2 2 5 0 0 0 p e r G P U . A t p r e s e n t

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
the are newer generation models under a year old
available in the market that can be purchased at very
competitive pricing.

In addition, the worldwide second-

h a n d m a r k e t f o r G P U ’s i s s o f t c u r r e n t l y d u e t o t h e
negative economic environment. In consideration of our
d i s c u s s i o n w e a r e a b l e t o a m e n d o u r o ff e r p r i c e t o 2 4 8
000 per GPU. Best regards Khosi Sokhulu.”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

She sends that e-mail only to you as a

r e p r e s e n t a t i v e o f S A AT ? I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
10

MS MEMELA: She send it to me, yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then you will see above that there is

another e-mail they sent on the 7th of July 2016. Who is that from and
to?
M S M E M E L A : 7 t h o f J u l y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: It was coming from Jules.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s M r A i r e s , A - i - r - e - s , f o r t h e r e c o r d .
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e i s t h e J M A v i a t i o n . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS MEMELA: JM Aviation.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R e p r e s e n t a t i v e a n d w h o d o e s h e s e n t i t t o ?
MS MEMELA: He is sending it to Stan.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s M r Vo s l o o .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : Vo s l o o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: H’mm.-hmm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o e l s e ?
M S M E M E L A : A n d Vu y i s o M b o n a n i b e i n g t h e S e n i o r M a n a g e r S C M .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d w h a t d o e s h e s a y i n t h a t e - m a i l ?
MS MEMELA: He says:
“ H i S t a n , b e l o w i s o u r o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e l e t t e r. ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n a b o v e t h a t t h e r e i s a c o m m u n i c a t i o n
10

b e t w e e n M r Vo s l o o a n d y o u r s e l f .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e t h a t ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n w h a t d a t e w a s t h a t ?
M S M E M E L A : T h e d a t e i s 11 J u l y 2 0 1 6 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s M r Vo s l o o s a y t o y o u i n t h a t e mail which is a forward of Mr Aires e-mail below?
MS MEMELA: He is saying;
“Hi Nontsasa, this is the only information I received on
t h e s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s t o S w i s s p o r t . ”

20

Do you agree with this and that we issue an invoice as per
below?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u r r e s p o n s e a s I h a v e i t i s a b o v e
t h a t . W h a t d i d y o u s a y i n r e s p o n s e t o M r Vo s l o o ?
MS MEMELA: I say;

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
“ Ye s S t a n , t h a t w a s t h e r e v i e w e d p r i c e . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . N o w i f M r Vo s l o o w a s a t t h i s m e e t i n g w i t h
you, why did you not just say to him, Stan you were at the meeting you
know what was discussed.
MS MEMELA:

U h - h u h m a n . C h a i r, t h a t w o u l d n o t c o v e r t h e f a c t t h a t

he was there or not. Ms Hofmeyr wants me – he wants an e-mail that
would have said, Stan, you were in the meeting. That is the price. I
cannot say that because remember I had said as much as I do not
agree with Mr Stan saying he did not attend the meeting, I agree with
10

him that the final price was not finalised because we had sent the guys
to go and check how did they reach the conclusion. So, me saying, yes
Stan, that is the reviewed price and ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Was that a reference to ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : To t h e r e v i e w e d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS MEMELA:

To t h e f a c t t h a t t h e p r i c e h a d b e e n r e v i e w e d a f t e r t h e

meeting?
MS MEMELA: After the meeting yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

So, which anyone who had attended might not have

known.
20

M S M E M E L A : W o u l d u n d e r s t a n d , e x a c t l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA:

Because remember during the meeting Chair on the

proposal that was received from Mr Malola-Phiri, the amount was
l e s s e r.

And when Khosi Sokhulu wrights to us – writes to me, the

amount is now more by 20 000 after we had questioned that. So, Stan

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
says, okay on that this is the only information I have. Is this the price?
And I said, yes Stan that was the reviewed price. Because I knew that
h e u n d e r s t o o d e x a c t l y w h a t t h e b a c k g r o u n d w a s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , b e c a u s e I m e a n i f h e d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e

background Chair he would have said, what do you mean the reviewed
p r i c e ? J a , I m e a n w h a t w a s i t b e f o r e ? Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o , c a n I j u s t c l a r i f y, y o u r e v i d e n c e i s t h e n i n
that meeting the price was not finally agreed. Is that right?
M S M E M E L A : T h a t i s w h a t I s a i d M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M S M E M E L A : I n i t i a l l y, I s a i d t o y o u , I d i s a g r e e w i t h S t a n Vo s l o o t h a t
he was not part of the meeting but I agree with him that he was – the
price was not finalised because we had asked JM people to go back
and check how did they reach the price.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o , w h o f i n a l l y a g r e e d o n t h e p r i c e t h e n i f i t d i d

20

not take place at that meeting?
MS MEMELA: Who finally agree?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Or who determined it?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Who determined it ...(intervenes).

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : F r o m S A AT s i d e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA:

O k a y.

F r o m S A AT s i d e C h a i r t h a t w i l l b e q u i t e –

because remember the question now I understand it is, who made the
final decision of the price?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
MS MEMELA: Remember the only time that you can say I have made
...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e l e t u s s t a r t a l i t t l e e a r l i e r.
10

M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Because your e-mail said, yes that is the reviewed

price.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Who did the reviewing of the price?
MS MEMELA:

O k a y, t h e r e v i e w a f t e r t h e y h a d g o n e b a c k C h a i r

...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k t h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n m e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m i g h t h a v e b e e n m e . O k a y, w h o d i d t h e r e v i e w i n g
that you talk about in the e-mail.
MS MEMELA:

O k a y, t h e r e v i e w w a s d o n e b y J M A v i a t i o n a f t e r t h e y

went and check and they came back with the reason why they have put
that proposal.
CHAIRPERSON: They came back with a revised price.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : Ye s , a n d t h e n t h e y c a m e b a c k w i t h a r e v i s e d p r i c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O ff e r.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
M S M E M E L A : R e m e m b e r t h e o ff e r w a s m a d e t o i n A p r i l t o t h e A c t i n g
CEO Mr Malola-Phiri who said to them, no do not worry I am still going
to go to the Board.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA:

I a m s t i l l g o i n g t o g o t o t h e E x c o a n d s t u ff a n d t h e n I

will get back to you once I get the approval.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , t h a t i s f i n e . I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r t h e n w a n t s
t o f i n d o u t w h o a t S A AT r e s p o n d e d a n d s a i d t h e r e v i s e d o ff e r f r o m J M
is fine? Who made that decision if you do know?
MS MEMELA: Oh, responding to ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t o t h i s r e v i s e d o ff e r f r o m J M .
MS MEMELA:

No there was no e-mail made back to JM saying, okay

we agree or maybe – we just continued with the transaction.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , b u t I a m i n t e r e s t e d i n k n o w i n g w h o i n

S A AT t h e n a g r e e d t o t h e 2 4 8 0 0 0 0 p e r u n i t s a l e p r i c e ?
MS MEMELA: The one with the extra 20 000?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e o n e r e f e r r e d t o i n M s S o k h u l u ’s e - m a i l o f

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
21 June.
MS MEMELA: I would say Chair because that is what they came back
with after the negotiation and then we continued and then it was sent to
S t a n Vo s l o o w h o i s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r d r a w i n g o u t t h e i n v o i c e . A n d t h e n
he used what was revised by JM and then he asked me to confirm is
this was the revised price. So, to say who made that final decision will
b e t o s a y, o k a y I s a i d b a s e d o n t h i s , t h i s w a s t h e f i n a l d e c i s i o n .
R e m e m b e r C h a i r, m y d u t y a s t h e H O D S C M i s t o r u n t e n d e r s a n d
ensure that tenders adhere to the processes and this one it did not go
10

on a tender because the Board had already made the decision.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e I t h i n k w h a t M s H o f m e y r w a n t s i s y o u h a v e a
situation where at the meeting of 21 June ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: In 21 June?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

At that meeting you have told me the price was not

finalised.
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e t o l d m e t h a t J M w a s a s k e d t o g o b a c k a n d
look at the price and then they came back.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y m a d e a n i n c r e a s e d o ff e r. O k a y.
MS MEMELA: H’mm.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w a t s o m e s t a g e s o m e b o d y f r o m S A AT h a d t o s a y,
t h i s r e v i s e d o ff e r i s a c c e p t a b l e . A n d M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t i o n i s , d o y o u
know who that is?
MS MEMELA: I think Chair it would now be based on the invoice that
was signed by the Acting CEO and myself co-signing as a witness. But
all I am saying is that because remember the line of questioning by Ms
Hofmeyr was referring to the amount from the Asset Register that was
included in the submission by Mr Arson Malola-Phiri and then now I
also want to bring your attention to the fact that he actually signed the
10

revised and final amount. As much as he made that submission to the
Board because remember that is way – the reason why I said let us go
back to the Minutes.

Because I know that during the discussion with

the JM guys, we – they actually asked and said, okay we are aware that
t h e G P U ’s w e r e u s e d f o r o t h e r t h i n g s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay Ms Memela.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: The question is simple.
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e i n s t r u c t e d t o n e g o t i a t e , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

When you negotiate you need to know what

authority you have. What you can agree to and what you do not have
power to agree to.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And what issues where you would need to refer it to

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
your principles.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

Before you can agree to.

Now did you have the

a u t h o r i t y t o a c c e p t t h a t r e v i s e d o ff e r o n b e h a l f o f S A AT y o u r s e l f ?
MS MEMELA: I did not have the authority to accept that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t h a v e . D i d y o u a c c e p t i t ?
MS MEMELA: I did not write an e-mail to say we accept the price.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:
10

I think because now there are no evidence that shows

that I had spoken to the Acting CEO.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: And gave him a feedback that, okay here is the amount
that came back. Because the fact that we have now the invoice Chair
that states the amount that was revised and signed by the CEO shows
that either was a discussion with the CEO that, okay here is the amount
that they came back with therefore ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d i d y o u d i s c u s s t h e r e v i s e d o ff e r w i t h t h i s A c t i n g
CEO?
MS MEMELA: My understanding Chair as much as I do not remember I

20

understand Arson as a person who would not sign anything until he
understands or until he knows that, okay here is the feedback. This is
what we did and then here is the feedback.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm, do you know whether the Acting CEO accepted
t h e r e v i s e d o ff e r w h e t h e r i n w r i t i n g o r n o t i n w r i t i n g a s d i d h e
communicate to you that this was an acceptable price?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: There is no written communication Chair except with the
invoice.
CHAIRPERSON: But verbally?
MS MEMELA: Sorry?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ve r b a l l y, d i d h e c o m m u n i c a t e t o y o u t h a t t h i s p r i c e

was acceptable?
MS MEMELA: As much as I do not remember I cannot – remember I
said things that I cannot remember I cannot say ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MS MEMELA: That were there but I am basing my assumption to the
fact that the fact that he signed the invoice.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: For that amount.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : S h o w e d t h a t w e h a d a d i s c u s s i o n v e r b a l l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Before he signed the invoice.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r, I k n o w t h a t y o u m i g h t w i s h t o r o u n d o ff
the point.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: I do want to take an adjournment as soon as we can.
So, but maybe you might be needing ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e a r e p r o b a b l y t w o p o i n t s .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o . J a , t h a t i s f i n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y j u s t f o l l o w u p .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, that is fine.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a y o u w e r e t h e o n l y p e r s o n o n 2 1 s t o f
J u n e a t S A AT w h o w a s s e n t t h e r e v i e w e d p r i c e b y J M A v i a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r, y e s a c c o r d i n g t o t h e e - m a i l y e s , I w a s t h e o n l y

person who was sent the reviewed price by JM. As much as on April
also the Acting CEO and the Acting CEO Mr Zwane were the ones you
were sent the proposal from JM.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: I was not part of that e-mail.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .

B u t i t i s t h e r e v i e w e d p r i c e t h a t S A AT

s o l d t h e G P U ’s o n a n d y o u w e r e t h e o n l y p e r s o n a t S A AT w h o r e c e i v e d
the reviewed price, correct?
MS MEMELA: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .

I understand your testimony a moment

ago to the Chair to be you did not have the authority yourself to agree
t o t h a t r e v i e w e d p r i c e o n b e h a l f o f S A AT. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS MEMELA:
20

Ye s , I d i d n o t h a v e t h e a u t h o r i t y.

But when it was

signed by the CEO it means I had a discussion with him.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o , y o u r e v i d e n c e i s y o u d i d n o t h a v e t h e
authority yourself but you do recall a discussion with the CEO about the
review price and that is why you and he – well he issued the invoice
and you signed it as a witness. Is that your evidence?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s , t h a t i s m y e v i d e n c e .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y.

We can take the break Chair and then

we will return if that is suitable.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, that is fine.

As I indicated earlier on, we are

going to take an extended lunch because of some commitment that I
need to attend to. We are at 12:20, we will resume at 14:20.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: It is something that I could not avoid. We adjourn.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
10

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a j u s t b e f o r e w e b r o k e f o r t h e l u n c h
adjournment we were in your second bundle that is DD25B and we had
b e e n l o o k i n g a t t h o s e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M r Vo s l o o .
Yo u w i l l f i n d t h a t a t p a g e 7 4 6 o f E x h i b i t D D 2 5 B .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : O h s o r r y.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e s e e m s t o b e a n o b j e c t i o n .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Chair I am not objecting.

I just want to

put in a reminder before we adjourned there had been a request from
Ms Hofmeyr that Ms Memela should find the Original Minutes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t i s f i n e .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e y h a v e b e e n f o u n d .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I j u s t w a n t t o p u t t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Some of these – you can just make a note and

g i v e t o h e r a n d s h e w i l l t h e n r u n w i t h i t . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela you will see at page 746, do you

have that?
MS MEMELA: I have it.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a i f y o u w i l l p u t o n y o u r – t h a n k y o u –
your microphone.
M S M E M E L A : O h j a s o r r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So I just want to get the chronology right to

r e c a p w h e r e w e l e f t o ff . I s i t c o r r e c t t h a t o n t h e 2 1 s t o f J u n e a f t e r y o u r
meeting with JM Aviation they sent back the reviewed priced and that is
what is contained at page 747, is that correct?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i t s e e m s o n t h e 7 t h o f J u l y M r Vo s l o o
i s s e n t b y M r A i r e s t h e o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20

MS MEMELA: That is correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u r e s p o n d – h e f o r w a r d s t h a t t o y o u
a f e w d a y s l a t e r o n t h e 11 t h o f J u l y a n d a s k s y o u w h e t h e r y o u a g r e e t o
this and that we issue the invoice and then you respond to him on the
11 t h o f J u l y “ y e s S t a n t h a t w a s t h e r e v i e w p r i c e ” , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS MEMELA: Okay which part must I agree on?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t h e c h r o n o l o g y. S o w h a t h a p p e n s i s t h e y
send the review price back on the 21st of June.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y t h e n s e n d a n o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e o n t h e 7 t h
of July?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS MEMELA: That is correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

M r Vo s l o o e n g a g e s y o u o n t h e 11 t h o f J u l y t o

understand from you whether you agree to that price and that an
invoice be issued, is that correct?
M S M E M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. W h a t I w a n t e d t o f i n d o u t w a s – i t
w a s – s h e s a i d t h e o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e w a s f o r w a r d e d t o m e s o t h a t i s
why I wanted to be clear what I am agreeing to.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja no she is coming to what ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: What she wanted you to confirm.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u c o n f i r m f o r h i m o n t h e 11 t h o f J u l y

20

at page 746.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

“ Ye s S t a n t h a t w a s t h e r e v i e w e d p r i c e ” ,

correct?
MS MEMELA: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i n y o u r e v i d e n c e j u s t b e f o r e t h e b r e a k

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
you said you understood that you did not have the authority yourself to
agree on the purchase price that would be paid and so you had some
engagements with Mr Phiri about that, is that correct?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s I d i d n o t h a v e a u t h o r i t y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u d i d s p e a k t o h i m a b o u t i t ?
MS MEMELA: I did.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u s p e a k t o a n y o n e o t h e r t h a n h i m ?
10

MS MEMELA: I would not remember Chair; I would not remember but I
am sure I would only speak to him since he is the one who actually
instructed us.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . A n d i n t e r m s o f t h e c h r o n o l o g y c a n y o u
p l a c e i t i n t i m e ? W a s i t s o m e w h e r e b e t w e e n t h e f o r m a l o ff e r o n t h e 7 t h
a n d y o u r c o n f i r m a t i o n o n t h e 11 t h J u l y ?
MS MEMELA:

Okay the e-mail from Ms Sokhulu was on the 21 June

2016 where he was – she was coming back with the feedback on – on
the price. And you can see then Jules sent an e-mail to Stan on the 7th
o f J u l y.
20

I think maybe a week or two after – yes.

So Chair Stan

forwards the e-mail to me or maybe sends the e-mail to me with the
s a m e s u b j e c t o n t h e 11 J u l y 2 0 1 6 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
MS MEMELA: And saying this is the only information I received on the
s a l e o f G P U ’s .

Remember Chair there is nowhere in these e-mails

w h e r e i t s h o w s t h a t I h a d a c t u a l l y g i v e n S t a n Vo s l o o a b a c k g r o u n d o n

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
t h e s a l e o f G P U ’s . Ye t w h e n h e w r i t e s t o m e h e s a y s t h i s i s t h e o n l y
i n f o r m a t i o n I r e c e i v e d o n t h e s a l e o f t h e G P U ’s t o S w i s s p o r t . D o y o u
a g r e e t o t h i s a n d t h a t w e i s s u e a n i n v o i c e a s p e r b e l o w ? A n d I s a y, y e s
Stan that was the reviewed price.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I w a s a s k i n g w h e n y o u l i k e l y s p o k e t o M r
P h i r i a b o u t i t ? W a s i t s o m e w h e r e o n t h e 11 t h , w a s i t p r i o r t o t h a t , w h a t
do you recall?
MS MEMELA: I do not recall. But like I am sure that I spoke to him
after I had received an e-mail from Ms Sokhulu.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
MS MEMELA: The reason for that Chair I do not know if you will allow
because then it will ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: Give clarity to you in terms of the Minutes that I wanted
to refer to earlier on.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: Which will help me answer the question.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : O f M s H o f m e y r.

20

CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. That will – those would help you to have
a better idea.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

When you might have spoken to him – would have

spoken to him?
M S M E M E L A : E x a c t l y.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us do that. What page are they?
M S M E M E L A : I w i l l g i v e y o u t h e p a g e j u s t n o w C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MS MEMELA: It is the file Exhibit DD25A Nontsasa Memela. Chair it is
page 193 File DD25NM page 193.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s c a n y o u p i c k u p t h e p a r t t h a t r e m i n d s
you – that helps you that will help you to say when you would have
10

spoken to the acting CEO?
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. T h e p a r t C h a i r i t i s n o t l i k e r e a l l y r e m i n d i n g m e o f
the date when I spoke to the Acting CEO.

But it reminds me that I

spoke to him based on what was discussed on the Board Meeting – in
the Board – during the Board Meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh so you – the Minutes help you confirm that you did
speak to him?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But as to when you are not sure?
M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. Ye s S i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: But it would have been after you got the e-mail from
Ms Sokhulu?
M S M E M E L A : A f t e r t h a t . Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M s M e m e l a o n e l a s t p o i n t o f r e c a p .
Yo u i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o o t h e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f

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and JM Aviation after you received the e-mail from Ms Sokhulu on the
21st June, is that correct?
MS MEMELA: I said I do not remember if there was any communication
b u t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r a c c e p t i n g o r a c c e p t i n g t h e o ff e r a s f i n a l .
B e c a u s e I d o n o t h a v e t h a t a u t h o r i t y t o a c c e p t t h e o ff e r a s f i n a l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e g o t o i n E x h i b i t D D 2 5 B p a g e 6 1 6 ?
CHAIRPERSON: What is the page number?
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 6 1 6 C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: 616
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s o f D D 2 5 B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA: Page?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 6 1 6 .
MS MEMELA: Is it DD25B, Nontsasa Memela?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s w e a r e o u t o f o r d e r a g a i n b y o n e s o
please go to your page 615.
CHAIRPERSON: Just tell her the Exhibit Number?

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s i n t h e s a m e o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: 25.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

DD25B at page 615. What is this document Ms

Memela?
M S M E M E L A : T h i s i s t h e d i s p o s a l o f S o u t h A f r i c a n A i r w a y s Te c h n i c a l .
It is an operated Ground Power Unit. This is the document that is sent

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
to either the bidder or the person who has won the bidder or – we
finalised on.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u a u t h o r t h i s d o c u m e n t ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s I a m t h e a u t h o r o f i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t – w h o w a s i t a d d r e s s e d t o ?
MS MEMELA:

It is addressed to – Attention Khosi Sokhulu, JM

Aviation.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e d a t e ?
MS MEMELA: The date is 22 June 2016.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e d a y a f t e r y o u g o t t h e r e v i e w p r i c e f r o m J M
Aviation, correct?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i l l y o u r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d w h a t y o u s a i d t o
Ms Sokhulu in the first line?
MS MEMELA: “Dear Ms Sokhulu your proposal for the purchase
o f t h e G P U ’s o n b e h a l f o f S w i s s p o r t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e
B o a r d o f S A AT t h a t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e c o n t r a c t

20

between SAA and Swissport.
approval

is

based

in

the

Kindly note that the
latest

price

review

by

yourselves.”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a r r y o n .
MS MEMELA:

“We hereby extend our congratulations to both

companies and look forward to a mutual beneficial

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
business relationship.

Should you require any further

information and clarification?”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

Ms Memela your evidence this

morning was that you did not ever understand JM Aviation to be acting
on behalf of Swissport. Why did you say in your letter to JM Aviation
on the 22nd of June 2016 then that you understood that they were
p u r c h a s i n g t h e G P U ’s o n b e h a l f o f S w i s s p o r t ?
10

M S M E M E L A : C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: I did not say I did not remember them acting on behalf
of Swissport. The question was this morning from Ms Hofmeyr how did I
know that JM was the agent of Swissport? Did we raise that during the
meeting? And I raised that on the 21st of April 2016 before the Board
Meeting the proposal was sent to the acting CEO where they were
actually proposing the – what you call it?
CHAIRPERSON: The purchase?
M S M E M E L A : E x a c t l y. A n d t h e n w h e n A r s o n w a s r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e m

20

and saying, okay we will get back to you after the Board processed
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: The Board Meeting.
MS MEMELA: And Exco process – once they get approval like they –
got back to JM. So I never said like I did not understand them as – I
said like that was picked up from there because that is why I seen after

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
the Board approval he gave us an instruction to negotiate. So I am not
– I am not …(speaking over one another).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a l s o s a i d I t h i n k h a d a n i s s u e w i t h t h e t e r m

agent.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And you said you understood them to be a BEE

...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : B E E C o m p a n y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Partner or component and so on.
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that right?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s t h a t i s r i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
evidence.

Ms Memela the transcript will reflect the

I recall the question being put to you by myself first and

then the Chair in particular whether you understood them to be acting
on behalf of Swissport.
a g e n c y.
20

That is after we had the debate about the

Is your evidence now that you did understand them to be

a c t i n g o n b e h a l f o f S w i s s p o r t i n t h e i r n e g o t i a t i o n s w i t h S A AT ?
MS MEMELA: Chair there was even a point that I made that we were
not aware that they were going to resell to Swissport.

But we

understood that like as their BEE or sub-contractor of Swissport they
w o u l d o p e r a t e t h e m a s t h e – S A AT w a s o p e r a t i n g t h e m a t t h a t t i m e . M s
Hofmeyr went as far as asking me about the 30% set aside that if I

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
thought it was them did I then agree with the 30% set aside.

Since

y e s t e r d a y – o n F r i d a y I h a v e s a i d I d i d n o t a g r e e w i t h i t l e g a l l y. S o I
am not sure. Like I mean where exactly – yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. L e t u s t r y a n d g e t c l a r i f i c a t i o n .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
CHAIRPERSON:

What is your answer to the question whether you

knew that they were acting on behalf of Swissport?
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja did you – were you aware of that? Were you not
aware of that at the time?
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r. R e m e m b e r a f t e r t h e B o a r d R e s o l u t i o n w a s
sent to us by Arson Malola-Phiri I even said he sent me a Board
Resolution, he sent me the proposal that was sent to him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. H a n g o n .
MS MEMELA: And then plus the third one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s h a n g o n .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Memela.

20

MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

I want us to go back to just before lunch where you

were able to give very crisp answers.
M S M E M E L A : G i v e s t r a i g h t – o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Answers yes, yes. The question is, where you – what
do you say now? Were you aware or were you not aware at that time

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
that they were acting on behalf of Swissport?
M S M E M E L A : I w a s a w a r e b a s e d o n t h e p r o p o s a l C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA: Like I said before lunch.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Did you make any enquiries from them about

w h a t S w i s s p o r t w a s w i l l i n g t o p a y S A AT f o r t h e G P U ’s ?
MS MEMELA: I did not make an enquiry on that. Because remember
you made me read – oh in fact you read the provision before break that
10

i t w i l l b e s o l d t o t h e S w i s s p o r t B E E C o m p a n y. S o j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela we do not need to have a legal

debate about what 8.1 and 8.2 means. It does not say in its terms that
S w i s s p o r t i s g o i n g t o p r o c u r e t h e G P U ’s t h r o u g h t h e B E E C o m p a n y. A l l
that I am getting clarity on now is a matter of fact whether you ever
engaged with JM Aviation as to what price Swissport was willing to pay
S A AT f o r t h e G P U ’s ?
MS MEMELA:

Chair I would not ask that question because Swissport

did not make any proposal or I was never given an instruction by the
acting CEO to discuss with Swissport.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u g o o n i n y o u r l e t t e r a n d – t o J M
Aviation the day after you have met with them to say:
“Kindly note that the approval”
That is the approval of the Board I take it that you were
referring to in the previous sentence.
“Is based on the latest price review by yourselves.”

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Do you see that?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Had you communicated with the Board about

whether they agreed to this price review that you indicated to JM
Aviation on the 22nd of September they had accepted?
M S M E M E L A : H a v e I – o k a y C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Ja I do not communicate with the Board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MS MEMELA: So I did not communicate with the Board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But did you know whether anybody had communicated
with the Board to establish that they were happy with the price?
MS MEMELA: According to the Board Resolution Chair the Board had
never said like the price after it is finalised should go back to them.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. H’mm.
MS MEMELA: That statement that Ms Hofmeyr is referring to where I
s a i d t h e B o a r d h a d a p p r o v e d . R e m e m b e r A r s o n ’s e - m a i l t o J u l e s w h e n

20

he responded and said, I am going to go to Exco and the Board and
after approval I will get back to you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

So like that statement is referring to that part.

Not to

the Board.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Well let us look at this letter if we may Ms

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Memela because the first sentence says:
“ Yo u r p r o p o s a l f o r t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e G P U ’s o n
b e h a l f S w i s s p o r t b y a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d o f S A AT
and in accordance with the contract between SAA
and Swissport.”
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

The very next sentence says:

“Kindly note that the approval.”
What approval is that?
10

MS MEMELA: Kindly note that the approval is based in the latest price
review by yourselves.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s l e t u s s t o p a t K i n d l y n o t e t h a t t h e a p p r o v a l .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t a p p r o v a l a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o t h e r e ?
MS MEMELA:

I am talking about the approval of the reviewed price.

The latest price that they put on the table that was discussed with the
a c t i n g C E O o f S A AT.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d i s c u s s i t w i t h t h e a c t i n g C E O o f S A AT
before the 22nd of June?
MS MEMELA: Before the 22nd June – I said like I discussed after the
e-mail that was coming from JM.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s b e t w e e n t h a t .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a d h i s a g r e e m e n t b y t h a t s t a g e ?
MS MEMELA: I have had?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H i s a g r e e m e n t b y t h a t s t a g e ?
MS MEMELA: I am sure I did.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And you not – you do not accept that the

approval you are referring to here is the approval of the Board that you
have been referring in the previous sentence?
MS MEMELA:

O k a y C h a i r.

I just need to give clarity for your

understanding.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

My understanding is that Arson Malola-Phiri when he

was writing that submission.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : To t h e B o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: He was writing based on the proposal that was made by
JM.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: And then his understanding or maybe the knowledge now
20

that Swissport and SAA had concluded a contract.

Ja – so him

discussing and tabling this whole submission to the Board involved that
we were going to deal with the BEE Company of Swissport being JM.
Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Well let me just – I think what Ms Hofmeyr is trying to
establish is that. In the first sentence of that letter dated 22 June 2016

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
addressed to Mr Sokhulu of JM Aviation.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y y o u r p r o p o s a l f o r t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e G P U ’s
o n b e h a l f o f S w i s s p o r t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d o f S A AT. A n d t h e n
i n t h e n e x t s e n t e n c e y o u s a y, “ k i n d l y n o t e t h a t t h e a p p r o v a l ” . A n d t h a t
approval as I read and you must tell me if I am wrong.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: That approval can only refer to the approval you talk
about in the first sentence.
10

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

That approval of the Board was based on the latest

p r i c e r e v i e w.
M S M E M E L A : P r i c e r e v i e w.
CHAIRPERSON: By yourselves.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Now my reading of what you are saying here suggests
that you are saying that there are – the Board provided its approval
being aware of the review to price.

Is my understanding of what you

are saying correct?
20

MS

MEMELA:

That

was

not

my

understanding

or

maybe

the

i n t e r p r e t a t i o n w h e n I a u t h o r e d t h i s l e t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: That is not what you were conveying?
M S M E M E L A : N o C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you intend to convey when you said, “kindly
note that the approval is based on the latest price review by

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
yourselves”?
MS MEMELA: Okay the approval – remember Chair the proposal by JM
Aviation. Let us go back to the date. It was 21 April 2016 which was
before the Board Meeting in the 15th of June 2016. So when Arson took
the submission to the Board to request them to dissolve these – or to
s e l l t h e G P U ’s i t w a s i n t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t i t – t h e G P U ’s w i l l b e
sold to the BEE Company of Swissport.

Ye s .

So when we were

negotiating in terms of the price it was after the Board had approved.
So we did not go back to the Board nor do I have any maybe
10

understanding if whether the acting CEO went back to the Board or
m a y b e t h e B o a r d o r m a y b e t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y t o c o n f i r m . Ye s t h a t
is why I said earlier on the fact that the acting CEO signed the invoice
shows that he actually agreed with the price.
CHAIRPERSON:

But tell me what your understanding of that first

s e n t e n c e i s ? T h a t s e c o n d s e n t e n c e I a m s o r r y. B e c a u s e a s I r e a d i t , i t
seems to imply that you are saying, the Board when it granted its
approval of the purchase was aware of the latest price review by JM.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r. M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h i s s e n t e n c e i s t h a t I
w a s t r y i n g t o b i n d t h e m t o t h e l a t e s t p r i c e r e v i e w.
20

Remember before

A r s o n w e n t t o t h e B o a r d t h e y h a d p r o p o s e d a d i ff e r e n t a m o u n t . R i g h t
and then after the Board approval we discussed with them, negotiated
and they went back and checked and then came back with a reviewed
price with R20 000 more.

So this was ensuring that when maybe we

finalise or have the invoice or we will have the correct reviewed price.
They will not go back to the previous price on the proposal on the –

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
what April 2016. Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

So are you saying that you were not necessarily

saying in this sentence that the Board was aware of the reviewed
price?

Yo u w e r e s a y i n g t h e B o a r d h a s p r o v i d e d i t s a p p r o v a l b u t y o u

must know that when we talk about the approval we talk about the
l a t e s t r e v i e w.
M S M E M E L A : T h e r e v i e w y e s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: And not the earlier price.
MS MEMELA: The price that they ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: Price.
MS MEMELA: They sent to the acting CEO.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MS MEMELA: Before the Board Meeting yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y M s H o f m e y r d o y o u w a n t t o t a k e i t f u r t h e r ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. W h e n t h e B o a r d m e t o n t h e
1 5 t h o f J u n e i t w a s t o l d t h a t t h e G P U ’s w o u l d b e s o l d a t t h e i r c u r r e n t
asset value was it not?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s , y e s C h a i r i t w a s t o l d t h a t t h e y w i l l b e s o l d a t t h e
current asset value.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m . A n d n o w t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o b e s o l d a t
R248 000 per unit which was not the current asset value, correct
MS MEMELA:

Chair before I answer that then let – this is the part

where I find it relevant that I read that provision of the Minutes that I
kept on referring to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I s i t a b r i e f p a r t ?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : I t i s j u s t a b r i e f p a r t C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay read it.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d y o u g i v e u s t h e p a g e a g a i n p l e a s e ?
M S M E M E L A : O h o k a y. T h e p a g e o f t h e M i n u t e s f r o m D D 2 5 i t i s 1 –
s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON: 25B?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A .
CHAIRPERSON: A.
10

M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA: Oh it is page 193.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

Chair can I – before I go there can I read just for the

court purposes who was in attendance?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: And present.
CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
MS MEMELA:
20

Ye s .

During this Board Meeting held 15 June 2018

p r e s e n t w a s M s Ya k h e K w i n a n a , n o n - e x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r C h a i r p e r s o n .
D r J Ta m b i , n o n - e x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r.
acting Group CEO.

Mr M Zwane, Executive Director

M r D E r i a , C h i e f F i n a n c i a l O ff i c e r.

In attendance

t h e r e w a s M r M M a l o l a - P h i r i , a c t i n g C h i e f E x e c u t i v e O ff i c e r o f S A AT.
M s P N h a n t s i , S A A i n t e r i m C h i e f F i n a n c i a l O ff i c e r.

Ms U Figelephi,

SAA GM Legal Risk and Compliance. Mr S Vilikazi, SAA Chief Audit

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Executive.

Ms M Makake, Deputy Company Secretary and apologies

were from. Ms R Ibuka. So I just want to read Chair now where it talks
a b o u t t h e d e p r e c i a t i o n o f t h e G P U ’s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

Which made me understood – understand that when

Arson agreed to this.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: It was because of this part of the Minutes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

MS MEMELA:

“ T h e s u b m i s s i o n p r o p o s e d t h a t S A AT s h o u l d

...(intervenes).”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S M E M E L A : O h s o r r y C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: What page are you reading from?
MS MEMELA: Page 197.
CHAIRPERSON: 197?
MS MEMELA: Ja second paragraph.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:
20

“ T h e s u b m i s s i o n p r o p o s e d t h a t S A AT s h o u l d

c o n s i d e r w h e t h e r t o r e c o v e r t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e
p u r c h a s e v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s a n d t h e c u r r e n t a s s e t v a l u e
from SAA.

T h e I n t e r i m C h i e f F i n a n c i a l O ff i c e r a n d t h e

G M L e g a l R i s k C o m p l i a n c e i n d i c a t e d t h a t S A AT h a d b e e n
utilising

the

G P U ’s

whilst

SAA

was

resolving

its

contractual issues with its ground handling service

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
p r o v i d e r. T h e r e f o r e t h e r e d u c t i o n i n v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s
was due to the depreciation and was not a loss.”
This was during the Board Meeting Chair made by the Group
CFO and the Group GM Legal Risk and Compliance. So to respond to
M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t i o n w h e r e i t s a y s o k a y t h e n y o u d e c i d e d t o s e l l a t
the – but 248 at the end.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t s a y r o o f o f t h e r e ?
MS MEMELA: Did I say?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y o u s a i d M s H o f m e y r.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : M s H o f m e y r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

So Chair the amount there that was signed for in the

invoice between my – like between myself and the acting CEO Arson
Malola-Phiri my understanding then – now that I am reading is that the
reason why he agreed on that price instead of going back to what he
had written on his submission is what was raised by Group CFO and
20

GM Legal.

And there was that understanding that the shortfall of the

amount will be recovered from SAA.

Because remember the reason

S A AT b o u g h t t h e s e G P U ’s w a s t o p r o v i d e s e r v i c e s t o S A A .

They did

n o t b u y t h e m l i k e f o r t h e p u r p o s e s t h a t t h e y w e r e u s e d f o r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a t h e p a r a g r a p h t h a t y o u h a v e d r a w n
our attention to which is the same paragraph that was in the extract of

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
t h e M i n u t e s t h a t w e r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d e a r l i e r.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s n o t c o m p a r i n g t h e c u r r e n t a s s e t v a l u e o f t h e
G P U ’s a n d t h e s a l e p r i c e t h a t w a s e v e n t u a l l y a g r e e d w i t h J M A v i a t i o n .
I t i s c o m p a r i n g t h e p u r c h a s e p r i c e a t w h i c h S A AT b o u g h t t h e G P U ’s t h e
year before and the current asset value that had been communicated to
the Board by Mr Phiri.
MS MEMELA: Oh did you make that calculation Ms Hofmeyr?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

No I am saying the words say the submission

p r o p o s e d t h a t S A AT s h o u l d c o n s i d e r w h e t h e r t o r e c o v e r t h e d i ff e r e n c e
b e t w e e n t h e p u r c h a s e v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s . T h a t i s t h e p r i c e t h a t S A AT
paid for them a year earlier and the current asset value from SAA which
i s t h e c u r r e n t a s s e t v a l u e t h a t w a s s e t o u t i n M r P h i r i ’s s u b m i s s i o n t o
t h e B o a r d . T h a t i s t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e p u r c h a s e p r i c e o f a b o u t
R782 000 which is reflected on the invoice and the R648 000 which was
the current asset value. This is a debate between the Members of the
Board because we have seen the record of the proceedings.

It is a

d e b a t e b e t w e e n w h e t h e r S A AT c a n r e c o v e r f r o m S A A b e c a u s e i t i s
being forced to sell these units.
20

T h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e p r i c e i t

p a i d w h e n i t b o u g h t t h e m a n d t h e p r i c e t h a t S A AT w a s g o i n g t o b e
selling them at the current asset value. I put it to you Ms Memela that
t h i s p a r a g r a p h h a s a b s o l u t e l y n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n
the current asset value that went before the Board and it agreed to sell
t h e s e G P U ’s a t w h i c h w a s R 6 4 8 0 0 0 o d d a n d t h e R 2 4 8 0 0 0 a f e w w e e k s
later that was agreed with JM Aviation.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: The current asset value ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e ?
MS MEMELA: The current asset value Chair based on what? On the
Asset Register that she rejected later or what?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o M s M e m e l a .
CHAIRPERSON: Well what ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Based on the submission of the CEO to the

B o a r d o f S A AT.
MS MEMELA: Do you know where the acting CEO got that amount?
10

CHAIRPERSON: Well hang on Ms Memela.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hofmeyr has put something to you.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to her I am going to ask her to repeat and
then tell me what you say about what she is putting to you?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela the paragraph that you have read

from the extracts of the Minute refers to a comparison between the
p u r c h a s e p r i c e t h a t S A AT p a i d f o r t h e G P U ’s a n d t h e c u r r e n t a s s e t
v a l u e . A n d w h e t h e r t h a t d i ff e r e n c e s h o u l d b e r e c o v e r e d b y S A AT f r o m
20

SAA. It has nothing to do with the current asset value at the time that
the Board met and the later review price that you agreed with JM
Aviation should be paid. Do you have a response to that?
MS MEMELA:

Okay my response Chair will be that even Ms Hofmeyr

does not know what the current asset value was at that time.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no.

Do you agree or do you not agree with

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
her proposition?
M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t a g r e e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Namely that the paragraph you have read has nothing
to do with the issue of the current value at the time of the assets to the
price that they were going to be paid for by ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J M .
CHAIRPERSON: JM Aviation. That is the point she is making. She is
saying her interest is on something else.

Yo u a r e r e f e r r i n g h e r t o a

paragraph that deals with something else.
10

Not with what she is

interested in.
MS MEMELA: For me Chair ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: It is relevant.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MS MEMELA: That paragraph it is relevant and you will find out during
re-examination.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l l e t u s d e a l w i t h i t n o w.

The submission

p r o p o s e d t h a t S A AT s h o u l d c o n s i d e r w h e t h e r t o r e c o v e r t h e d i ff e r e n c e
t h e p u r c h a s e v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s a n d t h e c u r r e n t a s s e t v a l u e f r o m S A A .
20

That seems to support what Ms Hofmeyr says. That sentence. It says
– i t t a l k s a b o u t t h e p u r c h a s e v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s a n d t h e c u r r e n t a s s e t
value from SAA.
M S M E M E L A : C h a i r, t h e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: On the face of it seems to support what she is saying.
MS MEMELA: I was bringing your attention from the sentence where it

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
says:
“ T h e I n t e r i m C h i e f F i n a n c i a l O ff i c e r . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: “ ... and GM ...(intervenes).”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

“ ... Legal Risk Compliance indicated that

S A AT h a d b e e n u t i l i s i n g t h e G P U ’s w h i l s t S A A w a s
resolving its contractual issues with its ground
h a n d l i n g s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r.
10

Therefore the reduction

i n v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s w a s d u e t o t h e d e p r e c i a t i o n
and was not a loss.”
So now I am talking depreciation. That is why I was actually
a s k i n g i f M s H o f m e y r – I k n o w. M a y b e s h e h a s n o t d o n e t h a t o r m a y b e
she had proof.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: That is why I was asking if she has proof like she had
earlier this morning that there was that Asset Register which then we
rejected, because it did not say who was it coming from.

So I am

s a y i n g f o r u s t o a c t u a l l y a g r e e t h a t o k a y t h e c u r r e n t v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s
20

at that time were the amount that the Acting CEO had put there.
There shall be a document that supports that. So that is why
I am saying I do not agree to that, because she is saying current –
based on the submission by the Acting CEO – only the Acting CEO can
explain maybe when he gets a chance to come here and say I came up
with this amount based on this and that. If it is not here.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
It is not helping us and it is not helping Chair to give you a
p r o p e r a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s H o f m e y r, C h a i r – I a m r e f e r r i n g t o m y s e l f . I
see that Ms Mbanjwa has her hand up.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t k n o w i f s h e c a n . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mbanjwa.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I j u s t w a n t t o p o i n t o u t s o m e t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

T h e r e a s o n w h y t h e r e i s a d i ff i c u l t y w i t h

that paragraph which appears in page 197.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Is because the questions that are put to

Ms Memela ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : A r e b a s e d o n a f l a w e d p r e m i s e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

If

there

is

going

to

be

an

attack

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : O n t h e r e v i e w p r i c e t o s a y t h e r e v i e w p r i c e
was below the current asset value.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Then we need to have certain inputs and

t h e i n p u t s c o m e f r o m t h e A s s e t R e g i s t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

The Asset Register must say when were

the GP Units acquired.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

How are they depreciated and what is the

basis of the depreciation and with that depreciation having been
10

applied then the current asset value is this amount. What Ms Hofmeyr
now is doing is taking a floating paragraph and is insinuating that these
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Remember is it Ms Memela who referred to this

paragraph.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Ye s .

The

reason

why

Ms Memela

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t M s H o f m e y r.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
20

M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Ye s C h a i r.

The reason why there is a

d i ff i c u l t y a n d w h y M s M e m e l a i s d e a l i n g w i t h t h i s i s b e c a u s e i t i s t h e
line of questioning and I do not want to be critical.

This is a

complicated matter in the sense that firstly it is an accounting Asset
R e g i s t e r e n t r y.
MS MEMELA: H’mm.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I t i s f o r t h a t r e a s o n w h y w h e n M s M e m e l a
o b j e c t e d t o t h e A s s e t R e g i s t e r.

I supported that objection, because I

knew for a fact that if the Asset Register is not validated as an
evidential document.

Then it means the inputs are going to be

incorrect or she is going to be cross-examined on inputs that are not
really properly there.
So what I suggest Chair is this with your permission and I am
not shielding Ms Memela with asking questions. Can we deal with two
things concerning this question of the price? Whether the review price
10

was the correct, because related to this question is another question
that has been dealt with in a manner which is not satisfactory to us.
I t i s t h e i s s u e b u t C h a i r s a w i t a n d t r i e d t o a n a l y s e t o s a y.
Was Ms Memela empowered to determine this price?

So if we can be

g i v e n a c h a n c e m a y b e – I k n o w n o t t o d a y. I w a n t t h e m a t t e r t o f l o w. To
deal with those two aspects, because they are directly related.

First

w h o h a d t h e p o w e r t o d e c i d e t h e p r i c e t o d i s p o s e o f t h e G P U ’s ?
S e c o n d l y, w h e r e i s t h e g e n u i n e A s s e t R e g i s t e r a n d w h e r e a r e
the inputs in the Asset Register and what is the conclusion in the Asset
Register insofar as what the actual current price was at the time the
20

disposal was made ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

And

lastly

if

the

review

price

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

That

is

the

Page 117 of 216

subject

of

the

e-mails

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : W a s b e l o w o r e q u i v a l e n t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : O r a b o v e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a t p r i c e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : A s i t p l e a s e s C h a i r p e r s o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . T h a t i s f i n e . M s H o f m e y r, w i l l d e a l w i t h w h a t y o u
have said, but if necessary later on – you can bear it in mind – later on
a t s o m e s t a g e w e c a n c o m e b a c k t o i t i f n e c e s s a r y, b u t i f w e c a n d e a l
w i t h i t n o w. I t i s f i n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Ms Memela, do you accept

t h a t M r P h i r i m a d e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t o t h e B o a r d o f S A AT i n h i s
submission identifying what the asset value was according to the
r e g i s t e r a t S A AT ?
MS MEMELA:

According

to

this

submission

Chair

signed

by

M r M a l o l a - P h i r i . Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And do you accept that the Board made its

d e c i s i o n t o s e l l t h e a s s e t v a l u e – t o s e l l t h e S A AT G P U ’s a t t h e a s s e t
value based on that submission from Mr Phiri?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W h a t d i d y o u t o e s t a b l i s h t h e b o o k
v a l u e o f t h e G P U ’s b e f o r e t h e y w e r e s o l d ?

Page 118 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r, l i k e I s a i d e a r l i e r o n t h i s m o r n i n g i f I r e m e m b e r

c o r r e c t l y. I d i d s a y t h a t a s w e w e r e s i t t i n g t h e r e w e d i s c u s s e d w i t h t h e
JM representative and asked them how did they reach the conclusion to
put that amount to their proposal. Can they actually go back and see
and at the same time there was no way that we could have known for
sure how much was the current value at that time based on the book
value, because I said it was reliant on an outdated system being
MEMIS.
E v e r y b o d y a t S A AT k n o w s t h a t s y s t e m . I t – t h e s o f t w a r e h a s
10

n o t b e e n u p d a t e d f o r y e a r s . E v e n b e f o r e I j o i n e d S A AT. S o e v e r y b o d y
who checks the price there Chair in terms of the price catalogue. They
were told to not rely on that because it could be something. It could be
maybe less or it could be more.
So they should see if they cannot – they can get something
else somewhere else.

Yo u k n o w.

So and the Asset Register being

managed and controlled by finance. So they are the ones who keep on
updating.

That is why when I raise this to Ms Hofmeyr like my

discomfort in terms of the document that she presented to the
Commission.
T h a t i t w a s t h e A s s e t R e g i s t e r. I t h a d t h e d a t e s 2 0 1 5 . Ye t i t

20

was written by hand 2016.
CHAIRPERSON:

But the short answer is you did not do anything to

establish the book value. Is that correct?
MS MEMELA:

We did not do anything to establish the book value

C h a i r.

Page 119 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: Ja. We ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA: We relied on the negotiation on the table.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA: Based on the ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : I n i t i a l p r o p o s a l . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Remember I said I want us to go back to those crisp
10

answers.
M S M E M E L A : C r i s p – y e s , C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And what did you do to establish the fair

market value?
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r, I w i l l t r y t o g i v e t h a t c r i s p a n s w e r a s m u c h a s I

can.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : R e m e m b e r C h a i r, f o r m e o r m a y b e f o r S C M t o g i v e – t o
make – to be – to confirm or to be comfortable that the fair market
20

v a l u e o r w h a t i s o u t t h e r e a t t h e m a r k e t w e s h o u l d r u n a t e n d e r. I n t h i s
regard a tender was not ran and remember Chair I can – we cannot run
a tender after the Board had decided, because the Board had decided
based

on

the

submission

–

based

on

the

proposal

made

by

Mr Arson Malola-Phiri and based on the contract between SAA and
Swissport.

Page 120 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
S o t o a n s w e r M s H o f m e y r i t w i l l b e d i ff i c u l t t o t e l l y o u w h a t what would have been a fair price, because ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . I a s k e d w h a t d i d y o u d o t o d e t e r m i n e f a i r
price.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. T h e r e w a s n o t h i n g . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: That could have been done ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: At that time, because the tender was not ran. So there
10

i s n o w a y t h a t y o u c a n d e t e r m i n e t h a t w i t h o u t r u n n i n g a t e n d e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t i s d e s p i t e t h e f a c t t h a t c l a u s e 8 . 2 o f
the agreement which is the whole basis for the sale required them to be
sold either at book value or at fair market value.

Is that right?

Yo u

could do neither of those inquiries before you sold it?
MS MEMELA: Chairperson, the provision that Ms Hofmeyr is referring
to of the Swissport and SAA Contract was concluded between – it went
t o t h e B o a r d o f S A AT. Yo u s e e i f m a y b e t h e o w n e r o f t h e G P U ’s – a t
that time when he actually was showing discomfort or maybe he was
uncomfortable with selling all 12, but he wanted to sell seven. Maybe
20

he came to SCM.
Give the instruction or requisition request to go out on the
market and test the market in terms of what could be found here before
it went to the Board. I would have understood, because like then I will
have something that says there is a requisition form where I mean the
o w n e r o f t h e s e G P U ’s h a d r e q u e s t e d a p r o c u r e m e n t t o s a y o k a y.

Page 121 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Let us test the market. Even if so Chair that he had – if he
h a d m a y b e a s k e d u s . M a y b e h e w a s g o i n g t o b e t o l d a g a i n t h a t o k a y,
but this thing has already been decided on the Swissport/SAA Contract.
Remember I said earlier Chair yes Mr Makaleng raised the fact that he
w a s n o t h a p p y w i t h s e l l i n g a l l G P U ’s a n d I s a i d M r M a l o l a - P h i r i , A c t i n g
CEO, said our hands are tied.
The Acting CEO said that our hands are tied, because this
thing has been agreed upon to do this by the high powers.

There is

absolutely nothing that he could have done and for me to run or test
10

the market to get the fair price would have been before the Board
...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : A n d a f t e r t h e i n s t r u c t i o n C h a i r, b e c a u s e w e d o n o t j u s t
go out on a tender as we please.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela that letter of the 22nd of June that

you wrote. Were you requested to write that letter to JM Aviation?
MS MEMELA:

These letters Chair we usually write after we have

spoken to the person who has given you instruction. Hence I said I am
sure after – as much as we do not have evidence.
20

Yo u d o n o t h a v e

evidence as well, but after receiving the e-mail from Ms Sokhulu
confirming that okay this now is the price ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Remember I think your answer is I was not

requested.
MS MEMELA: No, no, no. My answer is ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t r e q u e s t e d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

Page 122 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : N o . Yo u d o n o t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

To w r i t e t h e l e t t e r.

That is the question as I

understood it.
M S M E M E L A : W e w r i t e t h e l e t t e r a f t e r t h e a g r e e m e n t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o b e r e q u e s t e d b y a n y b o d y ?
M S M E M E L A : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o b e r e q u e s t e d b y a n y b o d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA: Once the approval is done ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Is that a short answer ...(intervenes).
10

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hofmeyr?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

The evidence of Mr Cole of Swissport is that

they were demanding repeatedly from JM Aviation that they get some
l e t t e r f r o m S A A c o n f i r m i n g – s o r r y S A AT c o n f i r m i n g t h a t J M A v i a t i o n
w a s S A AT ’s s e l e c t e d B E E p a r t n e r f o r t h i s b i d a n d f o r t h i s p u r c h a s e a n d
what came back was this letter from you on the 22nd of June. Were you
not requested to provide this letter by JM Aviation?
20

MS MEMELA:

Chairperson, this is the letter either of award or when

the final decision has been made. I would never write a letter based on
the supplier requesting me to write it. That is why I said after they had
written that e-mail.

Of course it was discussed with the Acting CEO

and then once it is discussed with the Acting CEO I am sure the
understanding was to move forward and finalise and then give the letter

Page 123 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
of award.
We have never given any letter of awards to people because
they are asking for them. We give letter of awards when we know that
okay the process internally has been done which in this regard it has
gone through the Broad.

Finalised, approved and we negotiated.

So

...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
h e l p f u l l y.

Just to say could I give her the reference to where it is in

M r C o l e ’s a ff i d a v i t .
10

This is a – Ms Mbanjwa sent me a note

I do not suggest we have to go there for present

purposes, because Ms Memela has indicated she did not receive a
request, but for the record it is at DD25A.
It is at page 267 and I will just read it into the record before
Ms Mbanjwa makes her point.

T h i s i s M r C o l e ’s a ff i d a v i t t o t h e

Commission. He says:
“ I n t e r m s o f S A AT ’s l e t t e r t o J M A v i a t i o n d a t e d
22 June 2016 included in Exhibit 18 I wish to stress
that Swissport South Africa was neither consulted
on the content of the letter nor do we agree with the
wording used therein. The letter was forwarded to
20

Swissport

South

African

in

response

to

your

repeated requests for evidence whether SAA or
S A AT h a d o ff i c i a l l y a p p o i n t e d J M S o u t h A f r i c a a s a
B-BBEE partner for the GPU transaction and if so
whether the parties had reached agreement on the
sale of the units.”

Page 124 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
That is what I was putting to Ms Memela.
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

As the background to why Swissport had

r e q u e s t e d t h e l e t t e r, b u t I u n d e r s t a n d M s M e m e l a ’s e v i d e n c e t o b e s h e
was never told by JM Aviation that such a letter was required.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s M b a n j w a .
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : J u s t v e r y b r i e f l y C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C o m e c l o s e r t o t h e m i c .
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s . I w o u l d r e a l l y b e g . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a t t h i s b e t h i s p r o c e d u r e s o t h a t I d o n o t
have to object.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : E v e r y t i m e M s H o f m e y r . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : R e f e r s t o a d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

That document must first be put to

Ms Memela ...(intervenes).
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : A n d w e m u s t b e g i v e n a c h a n c e t o p l a c e t o
the document.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

So that we can read the document and

understand it for ourselves.

Page 125 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I t i s n o t c o r r e c t f o r h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

That is why I am making this strong

o b j e c t i o n . To p u t a s t a t e m e n t o f a c e r t a i n M r C o l e w h i c h w e h a v e n o t
seen and cross-examine or ask questions from Ms Memela.

It is very

prejudicial and we will ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B e f o r c e d t o o b j e c t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no.

It is permissible for her to – for

Ms Hofmeyr to ask the question first and only go to a document on
w h i c h t h e q u e s t i o n i s b a s e d l a t e r i f n e c e s s a r y, b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s t h e
answer does not make it necessary to go to the document, but
s o m e t i m e s t h e a n s w e r m a k e s i t n e c e s s a r y.
So it is a question of choice – a preference. She might start
by referring to the document before asking the question or ask the
question first and if the answer makes it necessary to go to the
document.

Go to the document, but the answer might not make it

necessary to go to the document.
20

M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I n t h a t c a s e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s . I n t h a t c a s e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

Chairperson I will simply take comfort in

the sense ...(intervenes).

Page 126 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a t y o u s a i d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I f I f e e l a c u t e d i s c o m f o r t I m u s t I m a k e a n
objection.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . N o , n o . D e f i n i t e l y. D e f i n i t e l y.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : A s i t p l e a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d t h i s i s n o t a d o c u m e n t
10

that Ms Memela has not seen.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h a s b e e n i n h e r b u n d l e a n d s h e c o n s i d e r e d i t
c l o s e l y b e f o r e h e r e v i d e n c e o n F r i d a y f o r t h a t h a l f a n h o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e r e i s n o s e n s e i n w h i c h s h e h a s n o t s e e n
M r C o l e ’s a ff i d a v i t p r i o r t o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

M S M E M E L A : C h a i r, s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : J u s t t o g i v e c o r r e c t i o n t o M s H o f m e y r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : T h i s a ff i d a v i t i s t h e – i s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A m I h e a r i n g s o m e t h i n g t h a t M s M e m e l a

Page 127 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
is not saying? Why do I always hear something like hoof before Meyr?
M S M E M E L A : O h . M s H o f m e y r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r.
M S M E M E L A : M s H o f m e y r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Yo u s a y H o o f m e y r.
M S M E M E L A : H o o f m e y r. I m e a n . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o f m e y r.
10

M S M E M E L A : C h a i r, j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . N o . I t i s H o f m e y r.
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o . I w a s j u s t w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r I a m h e a r i n g
something that you are not saying or whether I am hearing something
you are saying.
MS MEMELA: Ja. She is lucky Chair ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S h e i s M s H o f m e y r.
MS MEMELA:

She

is

lucky

Chair

that

my

surname

is

quite

straightforward and very simple.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: So that is why for her it is easy to say Memela.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Iif she was using my maiden surname we would be
c o r r e c t i n g e v e r y m i n u t e . Ye s . S o C h a i r . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No, no. No. I just wanted to make sure that the

Page 128 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
record does not reflect that you called her something ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: By a name that is not hers.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A l r i g h t .
M S M E M E L A : A l r i g h t . C h a i r, I c o n f i r m e d t h a t f o r m e I d i d n o t r e a d i n
d e t a i l t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r C o l e , b e c a u s e I n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y 3 . 3 – y e s –
I even asked Ms Hofmeyr if like this is for my attention and she said
like it is just for my – what – ease of reference or maybe for
10

information.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA:

So that 30 minutes there is no way that like with me

applying my mind reading this document I would have finished by the
time.

I was going through some additional documents where I had

received ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : 3 . 3 . Ye s C h a i r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – i n o t h e r w o r d s y o u s a y y o u d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d
the document ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: I just ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e i m p o r t a n t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . I j u s t b r o w s e d t h r o u g h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r a n y . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . J a . O k a y.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: I did not exactly ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: No. That is fine. That is fine.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

Ms Memela, I would like to move

o ff t h e G P U ’s n o w t o t h e c o m p o n e n t s t e n d e r, b u t i n j u s t s u m m i n g i t u p I
would like to put to you some of the observations from your evidence so
that you can comment on them if you need to.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n i s t h a t

you did not take any steps to determine the fair market value of the
10

G P U ’s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M E M E L A : C h a i r, I w a n t t o g i v e y o u t h a t c r i s p a n s w e r, b u t i t d o e s
not allow me. This question does not allow me.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well you can start by giving the crisp answer

...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

And see whether you want to elaborate, but just

...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Say yes or no and ...(intervenes).
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s . I d i d n o t t e s t t h e m a r k e t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: Because the Board had already decided ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u d i d n o t c h e c k t h e i r b o o k v a l u e e i t h e r
yourself?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

The book value like I said Chair we checked MEMIS

which was outdated.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: So we could not rely on that amount.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m m . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And you were selling – you were concluding

t h i s a g r e e m e n t w i t h J M A v i a t i o n f o r t h e s a l e p r i c e o f t h e G P U ’s a b o u t a
month and a bit after JM Aviation had paid the 2.5 million towards your
Bedfordview house. Is that correct?
10

M S M E M E L A : I w a s – s o r r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w e r e f i n a l i s i n g t h e s a l e p r i c e o f t h e G P U ’s
with JM Aviation.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

About a month and a number of weeks after

they had paid 2.5 million towards your Bedfordview house.

Is that

correct?
M S M E M E L A : C h a i r, w o u l d I b e p r o b l e m a t i c t o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Well I think you probably want to say when they had
paid that amount ...(intervenes).
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of your mother?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I think that is the point you wanted to ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

That is

the

point you

Page 131 of 216

wanted

to

make

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: Thank you. It was ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: But in terms of the time frame she is correct more or
less a month or so.
MS MEMELA: The amount was paid for the sale of the property of my
mother ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

And towards the purchase of the - or the intention to

purchase the sale – the property from Cove Ridge.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . S o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : T h i s h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e G P U ’s a n d I w a n t e d t o
a s k M s H o f m e y r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S M E M E L A : Yo u s e e n o w I a m c o n s c i e n c e b e c a u s e I k e p t o n s a y i n g
H o o f m e y r. S o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: Hofmeyr to direct me to the invoice ...(intervenes).

20

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S M E M E L A : O f t h e G P U ’s .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MEMELA: Because I would just like ...(intervenes).

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h i c h i n v o i c e ?
M S M E M E L A : T h e i n v o i c e o f t h e – w h e n S A AT w a s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e s a l e f r o m S A AT t o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S M E M E L A : To J M A v i a t i o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J M A v i a t i o n ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t t h e i n v o i c e f o r m J M A v i a t i o n t o S w i s s p o r t ?
MS MEMELA: No. Remember that has nothing to do with us.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s a t D D 2 5 B a t p a g e 6 1 7 .
10

M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mbanjwa, I see you raising your hand, but you do
– y o u f e e l a p o l o g e t i c a b o u t i t a n d o k a y.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I a m C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

I

just

want

to

make

a

very

quick

conclusion.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e s e
conclusions that are put ...(intervenes).
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : To t h e w i t n e s s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B e c a u s e f i r s t t h e y a r e p a t e n t l y i n c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : W e k n o w t h e r e h a s b e e n e v i d e n c e h e r e t o

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
say the 2.5 million was for the purchase of the property at Mpindweni.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e n s e c o n d l y t h e r e i s e v i d e n c e h e r e t h a t
the decision to dispose ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : O f t h e G P u s e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : W a s f r o m S A A .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
10

M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :
c o m p a n y.

N o t e v e n S A AT.

That is the main holding

Ye t t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t c o m e s f r o m M s H o f m e y r i s t h a t

Ms Memela sold these things.

If Ms Memela can – if Ms Hofmeyr can

just kindly be very careful about the manner in which she words the
things.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u s e e a l l t h o s e c o n c e r n s b e l o n g t o y o u r

re-examination.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Note them and when you re-examine you highlight

what you believe is incorrect.
20

Whatever it is that you believe was

i n c o r r e c t w h i c h M s H o f m e y r w o u l d h a v e p u t t o h e r.
M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela, did you share pricing information

with a bidder about the prices that other bidders had bid for a tender
while was still open?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: Oh. Are we now – okay Chair I had the question.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. J u s t h a n g o n .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

Was there not a question you had asked or

proposition you had put to her ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Which she was still in the process of answering.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Apologies Chair if that was the case.

I had

understood – my last question was ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t c h r o n o l o g y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s t h e s a l e o f p r i c e a g r e e d w i t h J M A v i a t i o n
...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A m o n t h a n d a b i t a f t e r t h e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P u r c h a s e p r i c e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Had been directed to the Bedfordview house

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I u n d e r s t o o d M s M e m e l a t o s a y a f t e r y o u r
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n t r o d u c t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: HM.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , b u t i n s o f a r a s i t w a s r e l a t e d t o a p u r c h a s e
f o r h e r m o t h e r ’s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P r o p e r t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

That

had

concluded

my

questions

...(intervenes).
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

On the GPU and so I was moving to the

components ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: She said wanted to look at an invoice ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h , r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: And I do not think she ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: That is right.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Had made the point ...(intervenes).
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s .
CHAIRPERSON: She wanted to make on the invoice.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you find the invoice?
MS MEMELA: I found the invoice Chair and ...(intervenes).

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. Well where do we find the invoice?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D D 2 5 B a t p a g e 6 1 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: Do I need to go to it?
M S M E M E L A : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
MS MEMELA: I just wanted to check the date ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
MS MEMELA:

And confirm, because Ms Hofmeyr was referring to the

l e t t e r t h a t w a s s e n t t o J M i n t e r m s o f t e l l i n g t h e m t h a t o k a y.
10

They –

this has been approved and then I see that the invoice was signed on
t h e 11 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 6 w h i c h I a m t r y i n g t o n o w g i v e c l a r i t y o f l i k e .
These two matters like the payment of the property versus the
S w i s s p o r t b e i n g f i n a l i s e d a n d s t u ff – h a v e a b s o l u t e l y n o l i n k i n
between.
Other than what has been painted out there in the public that
m a y b e t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a i d f o r m y m o t h e r ’s p r o p e r t y c o u l d h a v e
been found from here. That is my assumption, because I am trying to

20

understand why is this question asked between like I mean.

O k a y.

This

made

was

finalised

between

–

after

the

payment

was

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : A n d C h a i r j u s t t o a d d o n e s e n t e n c e n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA:

I r e m e m b e r I p r o m i s e d t h a t I w i l l b r i n g t h e o ff e r t o

purchase between ...(intervenes).

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . M y m u m a n d M r N d z e k u . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

And if I remember correctly it was signed around

November 2015 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MS MEMELA:

But because I was supposed to go to Eastern Cape

t o d a y t o g e t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s a n d s t u ff a n d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
10

MS MEMELA: I could not go ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MS MEMELA:

And I will provide that as soon as I get the chance,

because I wanted to finalise with this ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: And then make sure that ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: I provide that information and then she is going to see
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

MS MEMELA:

That

actually

this

was

signed

for

1 November

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: 2015.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: The fact that like the payment for that purchase of that

Page 138 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
property to ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
M S M E M E L A : To p l e a s i n g m e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: Is neither here nor there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m m . O k a y. M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

forgotten about that page.

I am indebted.

I had

If we can then move to the components

tender and then ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON:

And we moving to the bundle that has got her

a ff i d a v i t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay and where about ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e w i l l p i c k i t u p – I n e e d f i r s t a c t u a l l y t o
r e f e r t o a n a s p e c t o f M s S a m b o ’s e v i d e n c e . S o i f I c o u l d – w e d o n o t
have to go there ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M s M e m e l a ’s
20

But the response is actually contained in

response

to

Ms Sambo.

Ms Memela

you

recall

M s S a m b o ’s e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t y o u h a d p r o v i d e d h e r w i t h a f l a s h d i s k
containing pricing information at a point while a certain tender was
open. Do you recall that?
M S M E M E L A : I r e c a l l t h e a ff i d a v i t b y M s S a m b o C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And you have denied in response to her that

you gave her that flash disk.

Page 139 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u a w a r e t h a t s h e f o u n d t h e f l a s h d i s k a n d
provided it to the Commission?
MS MEMELA:

If you have sent it to me – if you have sent that

information then it means I have not received it.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
MS MEMELA: I do – I did hear Chair from – comments from of course
10

my friends and family that apparently there was a flash disk that was
shown that Ms Sambo conveniently found it.

After I had said for a

p e r s o n w h o w a s h e l l - b e n t t o c o l l e c t i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t m e . To a n e x t e n t
w h e r e s h e w e n t t o F a c e b o o k a n d t o o k m y p h o t o s a n d s t u ff a n d t h e n t h e
memory stick that she refers to gets lost.
So for me I – since I did not receive that and maybe 3.3 then
t h a t s a y s o k a y. N o w s h e h a s f o u n d i t
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k l e t u s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS MEMELA: I did not ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I think the brief answer
20

MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Is you never received it prior to your coming to give
evidence ...(intervenes).
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
last

week

from

But you did become aware in the past few days or
people

who

told

you

Page 140 of 216

that

in

the

Commission

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Sambo indicated she had – that she had found it.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y i s s t i l l t o d e n y t h a t y o u
gave her the flash disk. Is that correct?
MS MEMELA: I deny giving her the flash disk, because ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e l o o k a t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s . C o n t i n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . F i n i s h y o u r a n s w e r.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. I d e n y g i v i n g h e r t h e f l a s h d i s k , b e c a u s e f i r s t o f
a l l C h a i r. T h e r e i s n o w a y t h a t I w i l l h a v e t h o s e p r i c e s . T h e o n l y t i m e
that maybe I will give her prices or for instance maybe that information
i n t e r m s o f m e n a i v e l y h e l p i n g a b l a c k o w n e d w o m a n a n d s t u ff . I t w i l l
be just the prices that is out there on the market.
N o t t h e p r i c e t h a t i s d i s c u s s e d b y t h e C F S T, b e c a u s e I d o n o t
sit in the CFST as I early indicated in 2015.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

After we received the flash disk

which was on the night before Ms Sambo began testifying.

We

m a n a g e d t o a n a l y s e i t . C h a i r, I d i d i n d i c a t e t h a t t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e
a n a ff i d a v i t f r o m t h e r e l e v a n t p e r s o n i n t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h o d i d t h a t
a n a l y s i s . I t h a s b e e n i n c l u d e d i n M s M e m e l a ’s B u n d l e D D 2 5 B a t p a g e
653.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA: Page 65?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 .
MS MEMELA: 3.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s p a g e 6 5 3 o k a y.

Chair when was this made available here?

CHAIRPERSON:

Well she – Ms Hofmeyr is going to indicate that but

i t ’s a r e c e n t a ff i d a v i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So you will see that it was deposed to on the

5th of February 2020 you’ll see that at page 657 Bundle DD25B it was
10

deposed to on the 5th of February 2020 ...(intervenes)
CHAIRPERSON:

Can you see that Ms Memela, are you on the right

page?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

657.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

On page 657.

I ’ m g e t t i n g t o t h e l a s t p a g e o f t h e a ff i d a v i t .

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t ’s t h e 5 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 2 0 , t h a t w a s

Wednesday last week, it was then included in your bundle prior to your
e v i d e n c e o n F r i d a y. S o w h a t M r S e f u m b a w h o i s t h e r e p r e s e n t a t i v e –
20

Digital Forensic Investigator of the Commission indicates in this
a ff i d a v i t i s t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s i n w h i c h i t w a s o b t a i n e d b y t h e
Commission and then he goes over to indicate that he took certain
steps to image the USB and he extracted what is called the metadata
from the file, you’ll find that at page 656 and then his Annexure A which
is at 658 is a screenshot of the metadata which indicates who the

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
author of the document was on – sorry I didn’t see that.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e l e t ’s f i n i s h – l e t ’s g e t t o t h e q u e s t i o n

first, Ms Mbanjwa before we can interrupt or do you not have the page?
M S M B A N J WA :

No Chairperson I’m not even objecting to the

q u e s t i o n s , c a n I r a i s e – i t ’s a v e r y f u n d a m e n t a l o b j e c t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M B A N J WA :

Ja.
The very nature of the evidence, I understand, having

read the rules that the Chairperson has a full discretion on what
evidence must be submitted. All I want to place before the Chairperson
10

is how seriously prejudicial this evidence is going to be.

What has

happened is a document that went where we do not know and there is
no chain of evidence to say that it left Ms Memela and went directly to
t h e p e r s o n w h o t e s t i f i e d , i t ’s n o w b e i n g p r e s e n t e d h e r e a s a f a c t . S o
what we are asking is, because the Commission also had an expert to
do this imaging, so what we are saying is, can we also have an expert
and then we will also have an expert on this document, because I, as
a n a t t o r n e y, t h e r e i s n o w a y I ’ m g o i n g t o e v e n b e a b l e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e
or to even re-examine or even do anything about this document
because I am presented now with this expert evidence of such a
20

technical nature.

This is one of those situations where I am begging

t h e C h a i r p e r s o n t o a ff o r d u s a n o p p o r t u n i t y a n d w e w i l l a s k o u r e x p e r t
to sit with the expert of the Commission just to validate the veracity of
whatever is there.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u ’ r e s a y i n g b u t I

t h i n k i t ’s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t – I t h i n k t h e q u e s t i o n s h o u l d b e f i n a l i s e d .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Yo u w i l l g e t a n o p p o r t u n i t y, I m e a n M s M e m e l a , I a s s u m e s h e i s n o t a
F o r e n s i c I n v e s t i g a t o r, I ’ m n o t s u r e , I d o n ’ t h a v e t h e e x p e r t i s e . S h e w i l l
be able to say I’m able to say something in response to this question or
I’m not able to say anything in response to the question but you will get
an opportunity if you apply in terms of the rules for leave to bring a
w i t n e s s – a n e x p e r t t o d e a l w i t h t h i s e x p e r t ’s e v i d e n c e , s o t h a t c a n b e
provided in due course. We should just hear what Ms Hofmeyr – what
q u e s t i o n s h e w a s p u t t i n g t o h e r a n d s h e i s f r e e t o s a y, I ’ m a b l e t o
a n s w e r o r I ’ m n o t a b l e t o a n s w e r o k a y.
10

M S M B A N J WA :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

But you will get an opportunity if you comply with the

rules to bring your expert, yes Ms Hofmeyr?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you, we were at DD25B at page 658 and

what Mr Sefumba explains there is that this is a representation of
w h a t ’s c a l l e d t h e m e t a d a t a , i t i d e n t i f i e s t h e p r o p e r t i e s o f t h e d o c u m e n t s
that are on the flash disk, the Excel spreadsheet, and what this
revealed as metadata was that the author of the Excel spreadsheet was
L e o n R o b e r t s a n d t h a t t h e e x c e l s p r e a d s h e e t w a s l a s t s a v e d b y, a n d
the name there is Nontsasa Memela, do you see that?
20

MS MEMELA:

I s e e t h a t C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Do you nonetheless persist in your evidence

that you would not have had access to any such information?
MS MEMELA:

Chair I’m not prepared to answer that until I know for

sure ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u g e t a d v i c e ?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

E x a c t l y, I k n o w f o r s u r e w h e r e i s t h i s w h o l e i n f o r m a t i o n ,

b e c a u s e I a c t u a l l y s e e t h a t M r L e o n R o b e r t s a l s o w r o t e a n a ff i d a v i t
mentioning me but I never was given the Notice or 3.3 from Mr Leon
Roberts.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, s o y o u ’ r e s a y i n g y o u a r e n o t p r e p a r e d t o s a y

you stand by the answer you gave earlier on until you have got expert
advice?
10

MS MEMELA:

I’m saying I’m prepared to stand by that answer that I

g a v e t o m y s t a t e m e n t e a r l i e r o n w i t h r e g a r d t o M s S a m b o ’s a d m i s s i o n s
that I had given her the memory stick with the prices ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

F o r t h a t t e n d e r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s o k a y t h a t ’s f i n e .

T h a t ’s f i n e j a .

Ye s

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d j u s t t o b e c l e a r, s o t h a t I k n o w w h e r e

w e ’ v e l e f t o ff , y o u r e v i d e n c e a f t e r t h a t t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e h a d
20

access to this pricing information at all, you want to hold on confirming
that until you’ve had ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

I w a n t t o h o l d o n c o n f i r m i n g t o t h a t , h e n c e , I s a i d C h a i r,

the price that I could have maybe, it would be price from the market
just changing what is out there on the market, not the spreadsheet from
t h e C F S T w h e r e i t i s v o t e d o n a n d s i g n e d b y t h e C F S T.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u , l e t ’s m o v e o n t h e n , I t h i n k t o a i d

processes, we’ll await any further application and we can take this
evidence forward after that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t ’s f i n e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t ’s m o v e t o y o u r c o m m u n i c a t i o n s o n t h e 1 4 t h

of January 2016 with Ms Sokhulu ...(intervenes)
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I t h i n k m a y b e j u s t t o c o n c l u d e f o r n o w, t h e p o i n t

you are making, you might want to put to Ms Memela what you make of
10

this evidence.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Indeed.

And then she will answer in whatever way but she

will get – she will have an opportunity to consult an expert and they
c a n a p p l y f o r l e a v e t o l e a d t h e e v i d e n c e o f a d i ff e r e n t e x p e r t , t h a t w i l l
be fine.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

A s l o n g a s t h e y c o m p l y w i t h t h e r u l e s , o k a y, b u t I

t h i n k t o c o n c l u d e i t , i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t o s t a t e w h a t i t i s t h a t w e
...(intervenes)
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o a b s o l u t e l y, I ’ m i n d e b t e d C h a i r. S o w e w e r e

focused on Annexure A which is indicating the properties of the Excel
spreadsheet and what I’m indicating to you Ms Memela is that when our
expert looked at the Excel spreadsheet, the information contained in its
metadata

was

that

you

were

the

person

spreadsheet, do you have a response to that?

Page 146 of 216

who

last

saved

that

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

I w o n ’ t h a v e t h e r e s p o n s e C h a i r b e c a u s e i t ’s s o m e t h i n g

that was found from an expert that – and I was not notified of it.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t ’s f i n e j a .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And just for the record, that – on the same

page as indicated as having been done on the 3rd of August 2015 do
y o u s e e t h a t o n p a g e 6 5 8 ? S o t h i s i s u s e f u l b e c a u s e i f t h e r e ’s a s p e c t s
that the expert needs to address, it will be whether in any respect,
these facts recorded are wrong.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And are you aware that the 3rd of August 2015

was 16 days before AAR submitted its tender on the five-month
components tender?
MS MEMELA:

No I’m not aware, remember I don’t have the

c h r o n o l o g y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

Right.

B u t w h a t I r e m e m b e r C h a i r, i s t h a t , M s S a m b o w h o

made these statements was not party to the bid and that will be proven
b y h e r l e t t e r o f a g g r i e v e , l i k e w h e r e h e s e n t a n e - m a i l t o S A AT
c o m p l a i n i n g t h a t – i n f a c t h e s e n t t h i s t o E N Y, E r n e s t & Yo u n g F o r e n s i c
20

Investigators that he never bided with AAR, she never gave them the
a u t h o r i t y t o u s e h e r c o m p a n y a n d s t u ff .
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

S o t h a t ’s w h e r e I ’ m a c t u a l l y n o t s u r e t h a t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ja.

Ja.
J a w h e n s h e s a i d s h e ’s g o t t h i s h e r e , l i k e i n t h e o t h e r

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
letter she says she never got the – gave them the authority to do this.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o t h a t ’s f i n e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r, I w a s g o i n g t o m o v e t o t h e

communications between Ms Memela and Ms Sokhulu on the 14th of
J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 , M s M e m e l a y o u ’ l l f i n d t h o s e i n M s S a m b o ’s a ff i d a v i t t h a t
is Exhibit DD18, that should be next to you and available.
MS MEMELA:

DD18 page?

CHAIRPERSON:

S h e w i l l t e l l y o u t h e p a g e j u s t n o w.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Have you got DD18 I don’t think we’ve taken it

o u t y e t t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Have you got an Exhibit marked DD18?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

I t ’s t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s S a m b o .

It might not be there.

O h D D 1 8 i s h e r e C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

And we’ll pick it up at page 339.

M s H o f m e y r a r e y o u g o i n g t o n e e d t o – o h o k a y, n o t

t h a t ’s f i n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

I’m actually realising in the chronology it

would be better to start at 367 of that Exhibit DD18, so if you’ll just
turn up 367 because there were two communications on the 14th of
J a n u a r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t ’s s t a r t , M s M e m e l a w i t h t h e o n e a t 6 3 7 , d o

you have that?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

367?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a i r I ’ m h e r e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So that is the 14th of January 2016, can you

tell us who sends the e-mail and to whom it is addressed, the one in
the second half of the page?
MS MEMELA:

S e c o n d h a l f o f t h e p a g e i t ’s c o m i n g f r o m M s S o k h u l u ,

14th January 2016 to Nontsasa, my iCloud account.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

MS MEMELA:

“Hi cuz so here is the latest ...(intervenes)

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

Sorry just the subject first if you don’t mind?

O k a y, f o r w a r d r e : S o u t h A f r i c a D r a f t P r o p o s a l .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

And what does the subject read?

And then the contents of the e-mail?

“Hi cuz, so here is the latest proposal, please let me

know if it is acceptable”.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

A n d t h e n t h e r e ’s a t h a n k s .

A n d t h e n t h e r e ’s a t h a n k s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then at 369 as I understand it is the

p r o p o s a l t h a t w a s a t t a c h e d . Yo u ’ v e m a d e t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e o n l y t r a c k
20

changes on this proposal are those that are not from you, is that
correct?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Now on the 14th of January 2016, the bids

w e r e s t i l l c o m i n g i n o n t h e f i n a l f i v e - y e a r c o m p o n e n t s t e n d e r, i s t h a t
correct?

Page 149 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

They were due to be submitted on the 19th of

January 2016, correct?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And the allegation is that that communication

with the bidder was in breach of the tender requirements, do you have
a response to that?
MS MEMELA:

Was in breach of the tender requirement, Chair if the

person sits at the Evaluation Committee or Bid Evaluation Committee
10

w h i c h i s t h e C F S T, s o i t i s i n c o n f l i c t i n t h a t r e g a r d b e c a u s e y o u a r e
sitting there, you know all the information and you are the one who is
going to vote, who is going to decide on this information. So the reason
I s a y i t ’s n o t – I ’ m n o t s u r e m a y b e M s H o f m e y r i s g o i n g t o d i r e c t m e o n
t h e l e g i s l a t i o n o r m a y b e p r o v i s i o n t h a t s a y s , i t ’s a g a i n s t t h e t e n d e r
requirement for a person who does not sit in the Bid Evaluation
Committee to help or comment on certain proposals especially with
regard to what I had stated on my statement.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , M s M e m e l a a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t y o u r

s t a t e m e n t m a k e s t h i s v e r y p o i n t , y o u s a y t h e r e ’s u n t o w a r d a b o u t t h e
20

communication, because you did not sit on any of the decision making
bodies, is that correct?
MS MEMELA:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d l e t ’s l o o k a t t h e s e c o n d c o m m u n i c a t i o n

f r o m t h a t d a y, y o u w i l l f i n d i t a t 3 3 9 .
MS MEMELA:

Before we go to that 339 I wanted us to finish here

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Chair from ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

367 and its attachment.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , w h a t w o u l d y o u l i k e t o s a y a b o u t t h e

attachment?
MS MEMELA:

I said on my statement Chair I am sure whatever that

Ms Sokhulu sent me this for was to confirm and check if the Supplier
Devlopment program or Supplier Devlopment proposal is in order as I
have said that the Supplier Devlopment program was a new program at
10

S A AT, w e h a d n e v e r g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o B l a c k - O w n e d C o m p a n i e s t o
joint

v e n t u r e s w i t h S A AT.

empower

black-owned

The person who actually started that to

suppliers

in

terms

of

these

multinational

suppliers.
Now from what Ms Hofmeyr had referred to with which is my –
the e-mail from Ms Sokhulu to me I see no evidence, maybe she is
going to direct me to that, I see no evidence or e-mail that is
responding to Ms Sokhulu and also on their comments because it does
show that this was a draft and there were track changes.

There is

nowhere where there are track changes where it says Advocate Memela
20

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t s h e h a s n ’ t a s k e d q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h a t , s h e

wanted to move onto something and you said you wanted to look at
something and I thought it was relating to the last question she had
asked.
MS MEMELA:

Okay Chair maybe my wrong, because this is the

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
p r o p o s a l a n d I t h o u g h t t h e o n e i n 3 3 9 i s t a l k i n g t o t h e J V, b u t j a , b u t
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

O k a y n o t h a t ’s f i n e .

B u t j a t h e s e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t d o c u m e n t s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, okay thank you.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Given that you have drawn attention to it I do

have a follow up question, you said you are sure that Ms Sokhulu was
sending it to you to look at the supply development aspects, correct?
MS MEMELA:
10

I t h i n k s o y e s C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u t h i n k s o , s o d i d y o u h a v e a c o n v e r s a t i o n

with her about it?
MS MEMELA:

Did I?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Have as conversation with her about it when

she told you what she wanted you to look at was Supplier Devlopment?
MS MEMELA:

No I don’t remember having a conversation in writing

C h a i r, I m a y h a v e h a d a c o n v e r s a t i o n v e r b a l l y, m a y b e s a y i n g I t h i n k i t
actually covers the supply development. These are the communications
that I have received from so many BEE companies Chair and as I
mentioned in my statement that I even had an MOU from Kwane Capital
20

b e i n g t h e B E E c o m p a n y o f A i r F r a n c e , w h i c h I s i g n e d f o r, s o I m e a n
those are the people that – it was the first time for the door to be
opened for them to actually deal or maybe participate in these big
companies and with these big multinational international companies.
Yo u k n o w s o i t w a s m y d u t y i n t e r m s o f t h e j o b d e s c r i p t i o n a n d a l s o i n
terms of the – I don’t know if Ms Hofmeyr I have sent you that but there

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
is an enterprise development supplier program that was done in 2014,
that actually gives us that obligation to promote the joint venture
relationship between multinational companies and local companies.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o j u s t l e t m e g e t y o u r e v i d e n c e c l e a r, y o u d i d

have a conversation with her in which you responded to this e-mail on
the 14th of January telling her that you thought the Supplier Devlopment
a s p e c t o f t h e b i d l o o k e d o k a y, t h a t w a s y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
MS MEMELA:

I am saying – okay I am saying Chair I said I don’t

remember if there is any written response from me, but I do know that
10

w h e n I r e c e i v e t h e s e , l i k e I r e c e i v e f r o m a n y o t h e r s u p p l i e r, B E E
suppliers, I respond either by phone and say okay I think this is in line
with what is required.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t s h e i s s a y i n g d o y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r y o u d i d

h a v e a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h h e r t e l e p h o n i c a l l y, o r i n a m e e t i n g w i t h h e r.
MS MEMELA:

I d o n ’ t r e c a l l C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Yo u d o n ’ t r e c a l l ?

I don’t recall.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

So you have no other basis for thinking that

she was just asking about Supplier Devlopment, unless you’d had a
c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h h e r, c o r r e c t ?
MS MEMELA:

I have no, sorry?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Basis for concluding that she was only

interested in your input on Supplier Devlopment, unless you’d had a
c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h h e r.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

The basis will be that Chair I would not have the

i n f o r m a t i o n t o d i s c u s s a n y o t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n o f t h e t e n d e r, o t h e r t h a n
S u p p l i e r D e v l o p m e n t w i t h h e r, b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t s i t i n t h e E v a l u a t i o n
Committee, being the CFST as such, and the other basis is the fact that
there is no way where I had helped them for them to win. I corrected
Ms Hofmeyr on Friday when she referred to Lufthansa as being number
t h r e e b i d d e r a n d I s a i d L u f t h a n s a w a s n u m b e r o n e b i d d e r, s o t h a t w a s
the winning bidder in terms of the scoring points.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

And Ms Memela do you recall considering the

proposal that was attached to that e-mail when you received it?
MS MEMELA:

Considering it?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

Looking at it, reviewing it?

I d o n ’ t r e c a l l C h a i r, I t h i n k i t w a s – w h e n w a s i t , i t w a s

in 2016, so I don’t recall what happened, and Chair the reason why I
would say I don’t recall as well is that the reason why Ms Sambo has
these documents it was again for the same basis that made Ms Sokhulu
s e n d m e t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n , i t w a s t o a s s i s t h e r.
Remember in 2016 in the final five year tender Ms Sambo what
she did not mention here in the Commission when she was here, or
20

m a y b e i n h e r a ff i d a v i t s h e d i d n o t b i d i n t h a t t e n d e r, b e c a u s e s h e d i d
not have any partner to bid with, you understand, so – and the reason
why I gave her because she was frustrated, she wanted to see if she
can

actually

approach

other

multinational

companies

because

remember in the five months period contract or tender they had not
s e e n e y e t o e y e w h e r e t h e y a r e , e x a c t l y, s o o f c o u r s e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

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CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , I t h i n k I s h e m e n t i o n e d t h a t .

Ye s , s o s h e c o u l d n ’ t b i d w i t h t h e m .

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .
So the reason I gave her this was me saying okay

remember you have been complainant about this ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y M s M e m e l a , o k a y, o k a y, t h e q u e s t i o n i s n o t

about that.
MS MEMELA:

I was giving the evidence for you Chair to understand

the background yes.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o I u n d e r s t a n d . M s H o f m e y r ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Let us go to the other e-mail on the 14th of

January you will find that at 339 of the same bundle, Exhibit DD18.
MS MEMELA:

Page 339.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

The e-mail is from Ms Nkosi Sokhulu.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , j u s t t e l l u s w h o t h e e - m a i l i s f r o m a n d t o ?

And it is to?

It is to Nontsasa Memela on the same date as the

proposal was sent.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

MS MEMELA:

And the subject this time?

The subject this time is joint venture draft agreement.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And what does Ms Sokhulu say in the first

three lines?
MS MEMELA:

“ H i C o u s i n , t h i s i s t h e f i r s t d r a f t o f J V s o f a r,

Jules did a quick review and noticed the following...”
And then she states:

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
1. Agreed

participation

JM

5%,

AAR

95%,

6

participation interest JM 5% …”
Do you want me to read the whole thing?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

Ye s t h a t ’s f i n e .

O k a y.

“As per the collaboration agreement JM is to receive 5%
o f a n y a m o u n t s r e c e i v e d b y A A R f r o m S A AT.

This is

l i n k e d t o r e v e n u e n o t , p r o f i t s f o r e x a m p l e i f S A AT r e m i t s
100 000 US Dollars to AAR then JM is to receive 5 000
10

US Dollars. The way the participation interest clause is
written states that JM will receive 5% of the profits, this
is not correct.

We need to determine what will 5% of

revenue equate to as a percentage ownership of the joint
venture for JM.

Please let me know if there is anything

else we might have overlooked.”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

Why would a bidder on a

components tender that is still not closed be engaging with you as the
Head of Procurement about the details of their JV agreement with their
bidding partner?
20

MS MEMELA:

O k a y, C h a i r a s I s a i d i t i s j u s t t h a t y o u d i d n o t g i v e m e

t h a t o p p o r t u n i t y, m a y b e I w i l l b e w o r r i e d t h a t I w i l l b e m y o l d s e l f a n d
take long, I wanted to give the full background.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well if you can.

MS MEMELA:

It will give me, it will take me about two to three

minutes, I promise.

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CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

That is quite long.

Oh, one and a half.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .
O k a y C h a i r. C h a i r a s I m e n t i o n e d o n F r i d a y S A AT h a d

always used the international multinational companies to supply spares
and everything else, and there has never been any participation
between local companies and maybe joining ventures with international
companies, and then we had the likes of Ms Sambo who had been
k n o c k i n g o n S A AT ’s d o o r f r o m 2 0 1 2 , I a m s u r e y o u c a n s e e t h e
10

evidence, where she started bidding with AAR, and from that moment
she had not had the JV that was protecting her from in case AAR runs
a w a y, l i k e t h e y d i d , y o u k n o w a n d d u r i n g t h a t t i m e w h e n s h e a c t u a l l y
introduced herself to me the first question I asked her do you have a JV
with these guys, because like remember you will not have a formal
c l a i m o r a l e g i t i m a t e c l a i m f r o m t h e m i f y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a J V, s o f o r m e I
w a s f u l l y i n v o l v e d i n t e r m s o f d i s c u s s i n g t h e J V ’s a n d s u p p l y
development program and others, it was MOU between multinational
company and versus local company like ...(indistinct) with Air France
they had an MOU.

20

S o t o a n s w e r M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t i o n i t i s t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y
they had maybe sent it to me was also to check if they are doing it,
b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e u s i n g t h e i r o w n l a w y e r, t h e y w e r e n o t u s i n g m e , b u t
maybe they just wanted me to check if they are not negotiating what –
to their disadvantage, like Ms Sambo had done.

For the first time

d u r i n g h e r a ff i d a v i t I s a w t h a t o k a y s h e h a d a c o n t r a c t w i t h A A R , w h i c h

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she never disclosed to me because I would have told her there and
then that that is not going to work.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Okay Ms Memela.

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So Ms Memela they were coming to you for

legal advice?
MS MEMELA:

No they were not coming to me for legal advice, they

were coming to me like for a JV and having the relationship with the
10

m u l t i n a t i o n a l c o m p a n y, b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h a t J V w i l l b e t h e b a s i s o f
w h a t w i l l b e m a y b e a c c e p t e d b y S A AT i n t e r m s o f l i k e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t
okay there was no fronting, or maybe there was no they just like used
t h e s e b l a c k p e o p l e b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a v a i l a b l e a n d s t u ff , s o i t w i l l b e
something that will go for the remainder of the contract.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So it was to understand what would be

a c c e p t a b l e t o S A AT ?
MS MEMELA:

No it was to – remember the JV is an independent

d o c u m e n t f r o m S A AT.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Ye s t h a t i s w h y I a m i n t e r e s t e d i n w h y t h e y a r e

sending it to the Head of Procurement.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , M s H o f m e y r ’s i n t e r e s t r e a l l y i s w h y w o u l d a

bidder who is preparing their bid to the company where you are HOD of
Procurement ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Be sending you their draft proposals and asking for

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your assistance?
MS MEMELA:

I w i l l t h i n k C h a i r t h e y w a n t e d t o h e a r m y v i e w, i f t h e y

are not negotiating to their disadvantage. I mean even Kwane Capital
and Air France during the five months tender they sent me the MOU
between themselves and it was talking – now it was not as detailed as
this but it was talking about the percentage that Kwane Capital is
entitled to.
CHAIRPERSON:

But that would be strange, would it not be, because

isn’t the position with regard to tenders that each bidder is supposed to
10

prepare its bid to the best of its ability and put it in without sharing it
with another potential bidder for the same thing, put it in, the bidders
s h o u l d n ’ t k n o w e a c h o t h e r ’s b i d s o r p r o p o s a l s a n d t h e e m p l o y e r, S A AT,
in this case would then on a certain day open them, look at them and
see which one is the best and in the process as they prepared their
bids they might disadvantage them, they might put in something that
will count against them, they might put something that will not count
against them but they have got to put their bid as they prepare them.
MS MEMELA:

This JV Chair was not part of the bid, so I am trying to

correct that part where they’re saying they should, they are the only
20

o n e t h a t w a s p a r t o f t h e b i d i t ’s t h i s p r o p o s a l .
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

H’mm.

And I will go back to ...(intervenes).

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t r e m e m b e r t h a t p a r t o f M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t i o n

is why are they – why were they giving you all of these documents
asking you for assistance from you when one, they were at one of the

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
b i d d e r s . Tw o , t h e b i d h a d n o t b e e n c l o s e d .
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r, i n m y r e a d i n g o f t h e e - m a i l , I d o n o t s e e

anywhere where they ask for my assistance other than they said please
let me know anything else we might have overlooked.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Well that is asking for assistance is it?

O k a y, C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s
And also, there is no e-mail that shows that I had gone

back to them and given ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Now we – Ms Hofmeyr she is still simply at the point

where we know ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:

There are sending you documents including a

proposal ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

Okay

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Te l l u s i f t h i s i s f i n e .

Ye s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

So she is asking question, why would a bidder be

asking the Head of Procurement of the company to whom to which they
20

are going to submit a bid, to first check whether their proposal is
acceptable.

Why are they not simply putting their bid after preparing

their bid to the best of their ability and then being judged on that?
MS MEMELA:

For the proposal Chair that you are referring to, that is

why I am saying I think they were asking me if their supply development
is in line with what is required because as I said that was a new

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
program at that time.
So whatever was put on the table it was new and we were
working together and since I was not sitting at the evaluation table I
was the one who they could approach.
CHAIRPERSON:

M s H o f m e y r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Ms Memela the one thing

we have not noticed yet, for the record is what e-mail address of yours
these requests for assistance were sent to.

Could you read into the

record, what e-mail address they were sent to?
10

MS MEMELA:

Chair if I read my e-mail address it will be known to

the public and I will receive insults and whatever ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o , n o .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o , n o , s o I c a n a s k i t d i ff e r e n t l y, t h a n k y o u .

T h e y w e r e n o t s e n t t o y o u r S A AT e - m a i l a d d r e s s , w e r e t h e y ?
MS MEMELA:

T h e y w e r e n o t s e n t t o m y S A AT e - m a i l a d d r e s s C h a i r.

They were sent to my private e-mail, and I did mention on my statement
t h a t o t h e r s w o u l d s e n d m e S M S ’s o n m y p r i v a t e p h o n e a n d t h e n I w i l l
respond to that, as I had been also communicating with Ms Sambo.
Yo u w i l l n o t i c e t h a t I h a d c o m m u n i c a t e d w i t h h e r o n t h e p r i v a t e
20

side, you know not because like we were running away from anything
b u t I t o o k t h a t m e , t h a t I a m a c t u a l l y g u i d i n g t h e m . To a d d t h e r e C h a i r,
I will not take long, there is somewhere where it talks about the joint
venture or shareholders agreement or Consortium on that five months
c o n t r a c t o r f i v e m o n t h s t e n d e r, w h e r e t h e r e w e r e o t h e r B l a c k - O w n e d
C o m p a n i e s t h a t I s a w f r o m M r H u m a n ’s w h a t f i l e , t h a t t h e r e w a s a

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Consortium also it is also in my file.
There was a Consortium where it was listing certain people
a n d M r H u m a n i n h i s a ff i d a v i t h e s a i d I a g r e e d t o m e e t w i t h t h e B E E
companies, like that were forming that what, shareholders agreement.
Just to prove that I was I had not only communicated with maybe JM or
maybe they were the ones who actually communicated with me.
I am actually trying to prove that there were other people who
were reaching me on the side to see, and then I remember on the
Consortium one we did not agree because I told them that you cannot
10

just come with something that has already been done and then when
t h i s t h i n g i s r u n b y S A AT.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So, did you use your I-Cloud e-mail address

w h e n y o u w e r e p r o v i d i n g g u i d a n c e a n d y o u r f o r m a l S A AT e - m a i l
address when it was formal communications with entities?
MS MEMELA:

When it was formal okay ...(intervenes).

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e , l e t m e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

She is asking when did you use your private e-mail

a d d r e s s a n d w h e n d i d y o u u s e t h e – y o u r o ff i c i a l e - m a i l a d d r e s s i n
communicating with these companies – BEE companies?
20

MS MEMELA:

Okay Chair it depended if I was at work. Some would

communicate with me via my work e-mail, but because I had had a
problem with my connection at home and because I will connect only
via my private e-mail. So, if I am at home and people want to talk to
m e t h e y w o u l d u s e m y i C l o u d a c c o u n t . Ye s C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Right, thank you for that. I would like to take

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
you to – oh before I do that – Ms Memela should we not take it as in
any sense an indication that something was happening alongside this
bidding process that your iCloud or private e-mail was being used.

I

understand your evidence to be – you would regularly use that in your
interactions with bidders?
MS MEMELA:

I said I would use it when I am in the home, like when

they cannot reach me on my work e-mail then I will let them use my
private e-mail account.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

So, were you at home at 16:00 in the afternoon

of the 14th of January 2016?

Because that is when the e-mail came

from Ms Sokhulu to you.
MS MEMELA:

I would not remember Chair where I was.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So, but do you remember specifically saying

use my iCloud e-mail address because I am not at work?
MS MEMELA:

Remember Chair if, for the fact that Ms Sokhulu sent

that e-mail at 16:00 pm, does not mean I have read it at 16:00 pm. It
may happen that okay maybe I read it later or maybe I was – so I
cannot really answer that, I was at home at that time.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Did

No but ...(intervenes).
t h e y,

was

the

position

that

during

normal

business hours if they wanted to send you an e-mail they would use
y o u r o ff i c i a l e - m a i l , b u t d u r i n g , b u t a f t e r h o u r s t h e y w o u l d u s e y o u r
home – your personal private e-mail address. Is that the position?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , t h a t i s t h e p o s i t i o n C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela your previous evidence, this

morning I think it was, was that as the head the HOD of Supply Chain
Management, your role was to run tenders and to make sure they
adhered to processes. Is that your evidence before this Commission?
MS MEMELA:

What I had said also on Friday Chair if I must repeat, is

that the CFSTO maybe the Bid Evaluation Committee. They bring the
recommendation to me without any other administrative documentation
to check if it is flowing and I will be able, we will be able to talk to it
when we go to Exco to be AC and then when the CO goes to the Board
10

So like she, Ms Hofmeyr asked me, if I am saying I signed as the Exco
member and I corrected and I said no, I sign as HOD SCM as I am
signing in support of the Bid Evaluation Committee, based on what they
had put on the table to me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , a n d I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e y o u

are one of the checks that the process has been properly followed is
that correct?
MS MEMELA:

Remember the duty to check the process if it is properly

f o l l o w e d a n d s t u ff , i t i s p a r t l y m i n e b u t m a i n l y b y t h e B A C , a s I s a i d
t h a t t h e B A C w i l l c h e c k a l l t h e r e l e v a n t l e g i s l a t i o n o n F r i d a y. I s a i d i f
20

they check all the relevant legislation and whatever that they have
gone through CFST and see if everything was checked ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

So, your answer is that you check parts of it.
F o r i n s t a n c e , C h a i r, I s a i d o n F r i d a y t h e r e i s a

r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t i s m a d e b y t h e p r o j e c t m a n a g e r. I n t h i s r e g a r d i t
was Leon Roberts and then for the 2016 and when he brings the

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
recommendation with the – what do you call this, summary of what they
had discussed there and evaluated and whatever and then come with
the proposal to say this is the highest scoring bidder in this regard.
The initial highest scoring bidder was Lufthansa.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t t h e a n s w e r – y o u a n s w e r e d t o M s H o f m e y r

i s t h a t y e s y o u a r e p a r t o f t h e p e o p l e w h o c h e c k . Yo u a r e n o t t h e o n l y
one, but you are part of the people who check.
MS MEMELA:

Ye s b u t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MS MEMELA:

That is right.

Ye s C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Were you aware that it was prohibited under

this bid for there to be any communication between a bidder and
s o m e b o d y o t h e r t h a n t h e p r o j e c t m a n a g e r a t S A AT ?
MS MEMELA:

I am aware of that.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

L e t u s g o t o i t i f w e m a y.

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t i s i n H u m a n ’s b u n d l e .

Yo u w i l l f i n d i t a t

DD22E and it is at page 2052.
MS MEMELA:
20

DD?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

Did you say DD22E?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

DD22E at page 2052.

Correct, yes.

Of Mr Human ...(intervenes).

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Mr Human.

And then you will turn up page

2052.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

2 0 5 2 , o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Chair I have picked it up in the middle of the

document just for records purposes. The document begins at 2043, and
t h a t i s t h e r e q u e s t f o r b i d o n t h e f i n a l c o m p o n e n t s t e n d e r, t h a t w a s
eventually awarded for five years to the joint venture of JM Aviation
and AAR, and Ms Memela your evidence was that you were aware of
the provision in this tender that prohibited communications and I would
like to take you to the relevant clause. It is clause 1.6 at page 2052.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MS MEMELA:

Have you got it?

1 . 6 c o m m u n i c a t i o n s s u r r o u n d i n g t h e R F P, y e s C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So, 1.6.1 there records:

“All queries or information relating to this document
or surrounding the bid must be addressed to the
Project Manager as stipulated on page 1 of this
RFP in writing.
Clause 1.6.2 provides:
“Any queries addressed to individuals other than as
stipulated whether verbal, telephonic, hand-written
or in any other form, will eliminate the bidder from
this process.”

20

Do you see that?
MS MEMELA:

I see that.

ADV

HOFMEYR:

K AT E

Do

you

accept

that

JM

A v i a t i o n ’s

communications with you on the 14th of January meant that they should
have been eliminated from this process?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

I d o n o t a g r e e C h a i r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

O k a y.

Why is that?
The people or maybe the individuals that are

r e f e r r e d t o i n t h i s t e n d e r C h a i r, a r e t h e i n d i v i d u a l s t h a t a r e s i t t i n g a t
the bid evaluation committee. The people that sit and go through this
t e n d e r, p u t t i n g t h e s p e c i f i c a t i o n s i n t h i s t e n d e r, a S p e c i f i c a t i o n
C o m m i t t e e w h i c h f o r m p a r t o f t h e C F S T.
So those are the people that are not supposed to talk or
m a y b e g e t w h a t – c o m m u n i c a t e w i t h t h e b i d d e r. A n d I e v e n m a d e a n
10

example for the bid of 2014 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, before you make the example – what is the

basis for your evidence that the individuals referred to in clause 1.6.2
are there specific individuals you are talking about?
MS MEMELA:

My basis Chair is the fact that the people who come up

w i t h t h e s p e c i f i c a t i o n o f t h e t e n d e r, a r e t h o s e p e o p l e t h a t s i t a t t h e
C F S T w h o k n o w e x a c t l y w h a t i s r e q u i r e d b y S A AT.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a l r i g h t . L e t u s d o i t t h i s w a y. I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g

in this document where clause 1.6.2 appears, is there anything or any
page on this document which makes you say the reference to
20

individuals in that clause is a reference to the people who deal with
specifications, or there is nothing in this document?
MS MEMELA:

I n t h i s c l a u s e i t i s n o t h e r e C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ja, in the document as a whole?

In the document as a whole I have not gone through the

document as a whole ...(intervenes).

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON:

But you are not basing what you are saying on the

document ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

But I know that Chair before this documents is put

t h r o u g h , l i k e I m e a n i s p u t t o g e t h e r t h e r e i s a C F S T Te a m t h a t i s
responsible for specification and everything that is going to be part of
this tender and this is usually referred to them because they know more
about the tender information, that they are voting for evaluating or
adjudicating. So, I wanted to add Chair ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

Ye s , t h e r e a s o n w h y I s a y t h i s i s r e f e r r i n g t o t h e p e o p l e

t h a t s i t a t t h e C F S T, r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s a p o i n t w h e r e M r H u m a n
r e f e r r e d i n h i s a ff i d a v i t t h a t d u r i n g t h e b i d o f 2 0 1 4 t h e B o a r d w a s i n
discussion with AAR at that time.
Remember like the bidder also was AAR but the Board was
discussing with them in terms of the MOU and all that and then
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry Ms Memela, we might have to come back

to what you are saying but let me just draw your attention to this.
c l a u s e 1 . 6 . 2 i s c l e a r, i t s a y s :
20

“Any queries addressed to individuals other than as
stipulated”
So it means it is very specific that if you are going to
communicate, these are the only people you must communicate with,
and your answer seems to suggest that this clause – you understood
this clause not to restrict communication to individuals – to certain

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
individuals.
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , C h a i r b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t w i l l b e r e f e r r i n g t o

individuals that are directly making the voting and the evaluation
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

but

Ms

Hofmeyr

do

you

know

where,

as

stipulated refers to? Let us go to that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , I c a n g i v e y o u t h a t .

It is at 2043, yes

because what happens on 2043 is the Project Manager is identified.
Yo u w i l l s e e i t s a y s a s s t i p u l a t e d o n p a g e 1 , l e t u s j u s t r e a d i t
10

...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA:

S o r r y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry 2043.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , i t i s p a g e 1 o f t h e R F P. I f y o u l o o k a t t h e

bottom it is page 144 right.

If I can just give the assistance.

What

6.1.6.1 is saying is:
“All queries or information relating to this document
or surrounding the bid must be addressed to the
Project Manager as stipulated on page 1 of this
R F P. ”
20

So, then you go to page 1 of the RFP ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r, I c a n n o t s e e

where you are reading. I am at 2043.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I d o a p o l o g i s e , o k a y, s o I w a s j u s t g i v i n g t h e

context for why I take you to that page.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

What we need to be looking at is 2052, which

is where the relevant clause is.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And I am just seeing what the clause provides

is in 1.6.1.
“All queries or information relating to this document
or surrounding the bid must be addressed to the
project manager as stipulated on page 1 of this
R F P. ”
That is why I take you back to 2043 because that is page 1 of

10

the bid and you will see in that first block, RFP particulars, you will see
on the left hand side there is a column saying bid queries, and across
from bid queries in the second column is project managers.
So, they are the project managers stipulated on page 1 of the
R F P. T h e y a r e M r L e o n R o b e r t s a n d M s E v e l y n F a l l o t . S o t h a t i s t h e
c r o s s r e f e r e n c e I t h i n k C h a i r t h a t y o u w e r e l o o k i n g f o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o t h a t i s t h e o n e I w a s l o o k i n g f o r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u s e e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A p o l o g i e s C h a i r.

Yo u s e e t h e w a y I r e a d c l a u s e 1 . 6 . 2 M s M e m e l a , i s

that it must be read with clause 1.6.1 and page 1 of the document and
that it prohibits communication between a bidder and anybody within
S A AT o t h e r t h a n t h e p e o p l e s t i p u l a t e d i n t e r m s o f c l a u s e 1 . 6 . 1 a n d
page 1.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
MS MEMELA:

O k a y C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

T h a t ’s h o w, y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ja that is how I understand it.

Ye s .
C h a i r, I w i l l e x p l a i n n o w t o y o u t h a t t h i s i s t h e

document, as I said with a specification and the document that is
compiled by the CFST right.

And the document is compiled for the

bidders. This document is not given to me as you can see that it is not
a s s i g n e d t o m e o r m a y b e w h e r e I s i g n e d o ff r i g h t .
10

So I am not trying to defend the fact that maybe I might have
n o t k n o w, m i g h t h a v e n o t s e e n t h e c l a u s e t h a t i s r e f e r r e d t o t h a t t h e y
should not communicate with anyone. Maybe they were aware, I was
not aware and I even searched my statement.

Even Mr Nico

Bezuidenhout being the Acting Group CEO of SAA at that time and with
Mr Barakas. They met with Air France.
Air France went there to discuss the bid of the tender during
the bid process and when I tried to check if after I find out, because
Nisha came and notify me.

Remember I would not, okay Nisha Chair

was the Senior Manager SCM at that time.
20

She came and notify me because she was called in that
meeting and said Nontsasa these Air France people went to discuss
with Mr Nico Bezuidenhout and Barakas.

And what they were

d i s c u s s i n g t h e r e , w a s e x a c t l y w h a t t h e b i d d e r h a s b i d e d o n t h e t e n d e r.
So the reason why what you call this, I could not disqualify them from
the tender after getting that information, after sitting with Mr Masimba

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Dau was the CPO of SAA of that time.
We sat down with a legal and this was discussed and they said
but this for instance Mr Nico Bezuidenhout and Mr Barakas does not
have it, only the supplier has it. Which is the reason why when I sent
an e-mail to the supplier asking them, they must give me valid reason
why I should not disqualify them and unfortunately that has not been.
O p e n W a t e r k n o w s a b o u t i t b u t t h e Te a m o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n
d i d n o t b r i n g t h a t e - m a i l , b u t I a m j u s t g o i n g b a c k t h e r e C h a i r. T h e f a c t
that this is written here, it does not necessarily mean that like the
10

people who are not sitting there understand it because it is not given to
us before it is sent to the bidders.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay so your answer is you were not aware of this

p r o h i b i t i o n . Yo u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h
t h e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s , w i t h t h e b i d d e r, i s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ?
MS MEMELA:

The understanding is that there was nothing wrong,

because I do not sit in the Evaluation Committee. The only people that
are not allowed to talk to the bidders, because they have all the
i n f o r m a t i o n , t h e y s i t t i n g t h e r e a r e t h e p e o p l e i n t h e C F S T. T h e B i d
E v a l u a t i o n C o m m i t t e e C h a i r.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela the challenge I think that your

understanding presents and I want to put it to you in fairness is that no
o n e a t S A AT o t h e r t h a n y o u k n e w t h a t J M A v i a t i o n w a s c o r r e s p o n d i n g
w i t h y o u o n t h e 1 4 t h o f J a n u a r y, t o g e t i n p u t o n t h e i r b i d p r o p o s a l , i s
that correct?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s . T h e r e w a s n o o n e .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So only you know that a bidder is currently

asking for your input on their bid proposal, correct?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then there is a provision of the RFP that

says they cannot communicate with anyone other than the Project
M a n a g e r, a n d i f t h e y d o t h e y w i l l b e e l i m i n a t e d f r o m t h e b i d . Yo u h a v e
indicated that you were not aware of that provision at the time, correct?
MS

MEMELA:

I

was

not

aware

of

that

provision

because

...(intervenes).
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If you had been aware would you have raised

the flag when you got the submission from CFST and said I see that
you have evaluated JM Aviation and AAR but they should be eliminated
from this bid because they have breached clause 1.6 of the RFP?
MS MEMELA:

For instance Chair if there was certain policy that is

know to all the executives for instance including even Mr Nico
Bezuidenhout

and

Mr

Barakas

at

that

time

which

notifies

the

M a n a g e m e n t o r m a y b e E x e c u t i v e t h a t o k a y, s h o u l d y o u r e c e i v e a n y
communication from the bidder even if it has nothing to do with the
r e q u i r e m e n t s o f t h e t e n d e r.
20

It is just about Supplier Devlopment, yes then I would have
n o t i f y L e o n , t h e P r o j e c t M a n a g e r.

A n d j u s t t o a d d t h e r e C h a i r, o k a y

this is the part you said you will allow me to add with regard to Open
Water report but like let me ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

I said later

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If I may just have a follow up question?

Page 173 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON:

I s a i d l a t e r, y o u m u s t j u s t n o t f o r g e t , m a k e a n o t e , j a .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela your evidence a moment ago was

that all that you were sent was something in relation to supply
development by JM Aviation, correct?
MS MEMELA:

That is my version.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , e x c e p t t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e s e n t w a s t h e

entire bid proposal, is that not correct?
MS MEMELA:

T h e e n t i r e b i d p r o p o s a l I s a i d C h a i r t h e r e a s o n w h y, I

just want to note this so that I do not forget later ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

Ja, note it, note it.
Th e par t t ha t I wa nt to ra ise a t t h e e n d w i t h r e g a r d t o

b i d d e r s c o m m u n i c a t i n g w i th p e o p l e a t S A AT.
CHAIRPERSO N:
M S M E M E L A:

Note it j a .

O k a y C h a i r.

ADV KATE HOFMEYR :

T ha nk you M s M e m e l a , y o u c o n f i r m t h a t y o u w e r e

sent the entire proposal?
M S M E M E L A:

I c on fi r m t h a t t h i s i s a n e ntire pro po sal b ut I sa id earlie r

o n C h a i r t h a t i t p ro ba b l y b e c a u s e s h e w a s a s k i n g m e , w h a t c o u l d h a v e
been the reason for them to send, I said probably because they knew that
20

I di d not hav e t he i nf orm at ion fo r t he te nde r a s I d o n ot sit i n t h e B i d d i n g
Evol u t i o n C o m m i t t e e s o i t w a s f o r m e t o c h e c k t h e Suppli e r Development
part.
And th e r e a s o n w h y i t w a s t h i s I d i d n o t s e e a n y t h i n g w r o n g w i t h
m e s h a r i n g w i t h M s Sambo.

It was to help guide her when she

a p p r o a c h e s o t h e r b i d d e r s , o t h e r s up p l i e r s t o b e c o m e th e ir jo int p artn e r,

Page 174 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
h e r j o i n t p a r t n e r.
ADV KATE HOFM EYR:

M s M e m e l a h o w w i l l J M Av i a t i o n k n o w t h a t y o u

were not sitting on the Bid Evaluation Committee?
M S M E M E L A:

How will they know?

ADV KATE HOFMEYR :
M S M E M E L A:

Yes .

I mea n e v e r y, w e g e t t he b r i e f i n g s o m e t i m e s . S o m e t i m e s

t hey go ing t o s i t, th ey kn o w e x a c t l y t h a t I d o n o t s it in t he CFS T
. .. (i nt erv ene s ).
ADV KATE HOFMEYR :
10

M S M E M E L A:

You briefed them .. .(in terve n es).

No, I do not brief them. All the bidders know that I do n o t

s i t o n t h e B i d Adjudication Committee.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR :

I am ju st try i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h e y a r e g i v e n

t hat inf orm at i on ?
M S M E M E L A:

How are they given that information?

ADV KATE HOFMEYR :
M S M E M E L A:

Yes .

Because I mean the HO D SCM has n e v e r s e a t e d a t t he

Bid Adjudication Committee, ever.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR:

J a , b u t t h a t i s k n o w l e d g e i nte rn al to SAAT, h ow

d o e x t e r n a l p a r t i e s t o S A AT k n o w w h o s i t s a t t h e B i d Evaluation
20

Committee?
M S M E M E L A:

Chair, I do not know if you remember on Frida y, I

m e n t i o n e d t hat one of t he JM Director s , M r J u l e s , h a s b e e n t h e S A AT
s u p pl i e r s i n c e 1 9 9 2 .

T h e y g et t o kn o w a bo ut this in tern al in format ion .

What happens where. Who sits at the Board . .. .(int e rven es).
CHAIRPERSON :

O n a n o ff i c i a l b a s i s ?

Page 175 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E LA:

No not on an offic i a l b a s i s s o m e t i m e s .

Sometimes like

j u s t t h r o u g h d i s c u s s io n s . ..(in terve n es).
CHAIRPERSO N:

Do they get to know something they are not supposed

t o k now ?
M S M E M E L A:

No, not that like it is something that is hidden but like it

h a s n e v e r o c c u r r e d t h a t a n HOD o r m a y b e a p e r s o n a t t h e e x e c u t i v e l e v e l
would sit at t h e C F S T. A t t h e C F S T .. .(int e rven es).
CHAIRPERSON :

No, no, that is internal.

The question is, if SAAT did

n o t o ff i c i a l l y i n f o r m t h e b i d d e r s w h o w o u l d s i t o n t h e C F S T, ho w w o u l d
10

t hey kn ow?
M S M E M ELA:

O k a y, a s I s a i d C h a i r w h e n I w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t t ha t

proposal that the only reason I know that they would send me that
p r o p o s a l t o c h e c k i s f o r Supplier Development b e c a u s e I w a s o p e n t o
t hem a bout Supplier Development .
I was fully involved about Supplier Development b e c a u s e i t g a v e
p o i n t s b a c k t o S A AT.

So, it was not about me sayi n g t h e y k n e w

. .. (i nt erv ene s ).
CHAIRPERSON :

Yes , but that does not ans wer the ques tion.

You

remember M s Hofmeyr is saying here are people, he re is a bidder
20

c o m m u n i c a t i n g with you at a time when they are preparing to submit th e i r
b i d a n d y o u r a n s w e r i s , t h e re i s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h a t b e c a u s e y o u d i d
n o t s i t o n t h e C F S T.
M S M E M E L A:

Yes Chair.

CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

So her question is how would they h a v e k n o w n t h a t ?

O k a y C h a i r, I s a i d t h a t I w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t s i n c e M r J u l e s

Page 176 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Aires h a d b e e n a t t h e d a t a b a se o f S A AT s i n c e 1 9 9 2 , w o u l d h a v e m a y b e
known that information because it is not something that is critical to hide
o r w h a t e v e r.
Sometimes l i k e I m e a n d u r i n g t h e t e n d e r process there is a
b r i e f i n g s e s s i o n w h e r e t h e b i d d ers would know who is part of the
e v a l u a t i o n d u r i n g t h a t m e e t i n g w h e r e a l l th eir b i d d e r s a r e t h e r e . A l l t h e
CFST Te a m a r e t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Well I do not know but if I w a s t o l d t h a t t h e i d e n t i t y o f

t he M e m b e r s o f t h e CFST was not supposed to be discl o s e d t o b i d d e r s , I
10

would understand t hat . I t mayb e th a t a t SAAT th e re w as no thin g w rong
with that because it was believed that that could not compromise them in
a n y w a y b u t y o u a r e n o t s a y i n g , o r a r e yo u s a y i n g t h a t o ff i c i a l l y t h e
i d e n t i t y o f M e m b e r s o f th e CFST were made known to the bid d e r s a t s o m e
s t a g e o r t h e o t h e r.
M S M E M E L A:

Not really Chair.

CHAIRPERSON :
M S M E M E L A:

Not officially?

Not officially. T h a t i s w h y I w a s s a y i n g s o m etime s du rin g

t he bri ef i ng proc es s t hey w ou ld me et a ll t h e CFST m e mb e rs , b e c a u s e
t hey a re t here t o ans w er th e ir que stion in terms of t he sp ecif ica tion o f t h e
20

t ender.
So they will see that okay maybe M s M e m e l a i s n o t t h e r e , t h e
CEO is not there or maybe a l l t h e G M ’s a r e n o t t h e r e , t h e s a m e a s M r
Nico Bezuidenhout would no t s i t t h e r e .

So when t h e y m e e t , w h e n t h e y

ask for instance, Air France asked meet Mr Nico Bezuidenhout and
Barakas, the understanding is that they would have f i n d o u t s o m e h o w t h a t

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
t hes e g u y s a r e n o t p a r t o f t h e C F S T o r B i d E v a l u a t i o n C o m m i t t e e .
CHAIRPERS O N:

O k a y.

ADV KATE HOFMEYR :

Ms Memela the other possibility is not that they

f ound ou t, b ut th at th ey t ryin g t h eir luck, is t h at n o t it ?
M S M E M E L A:

O k a y, t he o the r po ssib ility is th a t like .. .(int e rven es).

ADV KATE HOFMEYR:

So that they do not know wh o s i t s o n t h e C F S T

and who does not, but they are communicating with somebody hoping
t hey will get a res po ns e.
M S M E M E L A:
10

Tr y i n g t h e i r l u c k , I d o n o t k n o w, I w ou ld n ot agre e . Th a t

is your version.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR :

And just to finalize, b e c a u s e I d i d n o t t h i n k I h a d

a crisp answer to the question, if you had been aware of clause 1.6 of the
RFP a t t h e t i m e , w o u l d y o u h a v e r a i s e d t h e f l a g b e f o r e o r o n c e y o u go t
t he CFST re c om m en dati on a n d s a i d , h a n g o n w e c a n n o t p o s s i b l y a w a r d
t hi s t o J M Av i a ti on a n d AAR because they were com m u n i c a t i n g w i t h m e
during the bid.
M S M E M E L A:

O k a y, C h a i r. I f I h a d k n o w n t h i s d o c u m e n t o r a s I s a i d i f

t here was a fo rma l documen t s i g n e d s o m e w h e r e t h a t s a y s ok a y
Executives b e a w a r e o f t h i s .
20

Should anybody communicate with you

please do not communicate back or just notify the CFST then we will
disqualify them.
Th en I w ou ld h ave ra ised a ha n d and ca lled Leo n a nd said oka y
L e o n t h e s e p e o p l e a r e c o m m u n i c a t i n g wi t h m e . L e o n k n o w s t h a t I d i d n o t
h i d e a n y t h i n g f r o m h i m . I d i d t e l l h i m w h o w a s t a l k i n g to m e , i n t e r m s o f
Supplier Development a n d h e d i d n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t .

Page 178 of 216

AJ

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Wa l t e r s l i k e t h e y h a d t h e i r o w n B E E c o m p a n y a n d t h e y were talking to me
a b o u t t ha t l i k e f o r g u i d a n c e i n t e r m s o f Supplier Development .
ADV KATE HO FM EY R:

Yes , ex c ept M s M e m e l a y o u r e v i d e n c e a m o m e n t

ago was no one else other than you at the time knew they had
communicated with you on the 14th of January 2016.
M S MEMELA :

O k a y.

CHAIRPE RSON :
M S M E M E L A:

I thi nk sh e is ma kin g a differe nt po in t.

Ye s , I w a s m a k i n g .. .(in terve n es).

ADV KATE HOFMEYR :
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Apologies .

Yes , s h e i s m a k i n g a p o i n t t h a t J M w a s n o t t h e o n l y

o n e c o m m u n i c a t i n g w i t h h e r.
M S M E M E LA: Th e onl y B EE comp an y.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR:

Apologies Chair.

And I picked up on the p oi n t

t hat s he s aid s he h ad been co m m u n i c a t i n g w i t h M r Roberts a b o u t t h e f a c t
t hat th ere had b een t hes e ot her e n gag ement s o n Supplier Development . I
g u e s s i n f a i r n e s s I s h o u l d b e c l e a r.

I j u s t w an t t o b e c e r t a i n t h a t I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e i n r e l a t i on to t he JM Aviat ion com mu nica t ion s
o n t h e 1 4 t h o f J a n u a r y.

No one other than you knew that they had had

t hos e c o mmu nic a ti ons w it h you prio r to th e b id clo sing o n t he 19 t h o f
20

J a n u a r y, c o r r e c t ?
M S M E M E L A:

M y r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t C h a i r t h a t t h e y h a v e- th ey h a d

c o m m u n i c a t e d w i t h m e , J M Av i a ti o n .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes .
M S M E M E L A:

So of course, I did not say I have told Leon every

c o m m u n i c a t i o n . I s a i d I h a d s h a r e d w i t h Le o n s o m e o f t h e c o m m u n i c a t i on

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
and some of the BEE.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Th an k yo u.
M S M E MELA: J u s t t o a d d t h e r e o f c o u r s e Ch a i r l i k e i t w o u l d b e a d d e d i n
t he re -e x a m i n a t i o n b u t t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n w a s g i v e n t o M s S a m b o i n t h a t
n o t i o n t h a t I a m h e l p i n g a b l a c k o w n e d c o m p a n y t o h a v e a n u n de r s t a n d i n g
o f w h a t i s r e q u i r e d i n t e r m s o f S u p p l i e r D e v e l o pm e n t .
I h eard her t al k ing ab o ut NIP o bliga tio n a nd I co u ld tell e ven
f r om Mr S c h al k H um an t ha t th e y bo t h d o not u n de rst a n d th e d iff e re nc e
b e t w e e n t h e N I P o b l i g a t i o n a nd t h e S u p p l i e r D e v e l o p m e n t . Th ey do n ot
10

u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a N I P o b l i g a t i o n i s a c t u a l l y ma n a g e d a n d c o n t r o l l e d b y
t he DT I an d t h e n S u p p l i e r D e v e l o p m e n t g i v e s S A AT t h a t a d v a n t a g e t o
control what is happening within the contract within everything that has
been agreed upon.

T h a t w a y w e are getting back the points for BEE

status.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : We will come to NIP in a moment b u t j u s t b e f o r e
we go there. Were you aware that it was a requirement of this bid that a
NIP obligation be undertaken?
MS

M E M E L A:

Chairperson.
20

Re m e m b e r

Ms

H o f m e y r,

you

c a n n ot

ap ply

b o th

You cannot apply both NIP obliga ti o n a n d S u p p l i e r

Development. The o n l y r e q u i r e m e n t t h a t t h e D T I m a k e s i s t h a t y o u m u s t
make sure that whatever that you decide to apply is stated in the tender
f r om – y o u s e e f r o m t h i s t e n d e r f r o m th e b eg inn ing so th at th e su pplie r s
a r e a w a r e e x a c t l y w h at t he y are p utt in g t he mselve s in . S o y e s , i n t e r m s
of the amount it fell within the NIP obligation but because we introduced
t he S uppl ier D ev e lop ment in the b e gin ning of th e pro gra m, N IP o bliga tion

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
f el l aw ay.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : M s M e m e l a m y q u e s t i o n w a s , a re y o u a w a r e t h a t
t he reque s t f or b i d m a d e t h e N I P o b l i g a t i o n a p p l i c a b l e t o t h i s t e n d e r ?
M S M E M E L A: M a d e t h e N I P – s o a r e y o u s a y i n g t h e N I P o b l i g a t i o n w a s
t he requi reme n t o f t h e t e n d e r ?
ADV KATE HO F M E Y R:

In de e d.

Wo u ld yo u like me to take you to t he

p ag e . . .(i nt erv enes ) ?
M S M E M E L A: Plea s e .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Where it was the requirement?
10

M S M E M E L A: J a .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : L e t u s g o t o t h a t , i t i s i n t h e s a m e b u n d l e DD22E
at page 2083.
M S M E M E LA: 2 0 8 3 ?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes .
CHAIRPERSON : Are you th e re M s M e m e l a ?
M S M E M E L A: I am here Chair.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR :

My question was, were you aware that it was a

requirement of this RFP th a t th e NIP o b lig at ion be un dert aken b y
bidders?
20

CHAIRPERSON : I t hin k yo u w an t ed t o te ll her to id ent ify t h e p a rt o f t h e
p a g e . . .(i nt erv ene s ).
ADV KATE HOFME YR: I nde e d.
CHAIRPERSON : Th at h as – I th ink th at is 1 .0, is it n o t?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : I nd e ed . So, it b eg in s by expla inin g to th e b i d d e r s
what the pillars of th e N I P p r o g r a m a r e . I t r e q u i r e s t h e m o v e r t h e p a g e a t

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
2 0 84 a t c l a u s e 3 . 1 t o s u b m i t S B D 5 t o g e t he r w i t h t h e b i d .

That is a

document relating to the NIP obligation. And then over the page at 2085
a t c l a u s e 4 i t d e a l s w i t h t h e p r oc e s s t o s a t i s f y t h e N I P o b l ig a t i o n . O n c e –
a t 4. 1 it read s ;
“O n c e t h e s u c c e s s f u l b i dd er or contractor has made
contact with and furnished the DTI with the information
required the following steps will be followed. ”
And then it indicates how satisfaction of t h e N I P o b l i g a t i o n
“Wh i c h t h e b i d d e r u n d e r t a k e s t o i n v o l v e i t s e l f i n w h e n i t
10

s u b m i ts t he bi d wi ll th en b e fo llow ed . ”
M S M E M E LA:

Chair can I put this to Ms Hofmeyr for clarity of what is

m e a n t b y t h e r e q u i r e m e n t o f t h e t e n d e r ? T h i s .. .(int e rven es).
CHAIRPERS O N:

What she means is it wa s o b l i g a t o r y t h a t t h e b i d d e r s

s a t i s f y t h e N I P r e q u i re m e n t . T h a t i s w h a t s h e i s t a l k i n g a b o u t .
M S M E M E L A: O k a y C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON :

She wants to check with you whether you agree that

t here w as s uc h an o bl igat ion .. .(in terve n es) .
M S M E M E L A: Chair.
CHAIRPE RSON : O n t h e b i d d e r s .
20

M S M E M E L A: As I said that th e g u i d e l i n e s f o r t h e N I P o b l i g a t i o n f r o m th e
DTI it say s , what is applied on that tender shall be put on the tender as
t he requ irem en t, ri g ht .

And t hen the bid d er s will be a war e o f w h a t i s

expected of them when they bid. And then Ms Hofmeyr takes me to this
p a g e , t h i s p a g e i s a p a g e c o m i n g f r o m th e D T I t h a t u s u a l l y t h e Te a m fro m
SAAT that are running the tender, they copy and paste.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
I n t hi s re gard I w ill thin k mayb e the y d id n o t t h i n k b e c a u s e t h i s
was t h e f i r s t c o n t r a c t t h a t w e h a d a p p l i e d S u p p l i e r D e v el o p m e n t .
t hey d id no t t ak e i t out .
requirement.

So,

So n o , i t i s n o t o b l i g a t o r y a n d i t i s n o t a

I want to take you through the requirement of the tender

Chair and then hopefu l l y t h a t M s H o f m e y r i s g o i n g to un d erst and
. .. (i nt erv ene s ).
CHAIRPERSON : Well a t this st a ge .. .(in terve n es).
M S M E M E L A: How it works.
CHAIRPERSON : At this stage you say it was not a requirement.
10

M S M E M E L A: I t was not a re qu ire men t.
CHAIRPERSON : I t i s y o u r a n s w e r t o h e r q u e s t i o n .
M S M E M E L A: Yes Chair.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yes .

Ms Hofm e y r do you want her to refer to a page

whic h s p e c i f i e s w h a t t h e r e q u i r e m e n t s w e r e ?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : What I am just struggling with .. .(int e rven es).
M S M E M E L A: I will not t ake l o n g .
CHAIRPERSON : H’ m m .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : I s th is is Ap pe n dix 1 3 to th e RFP.
CHAIRPERSON : Yes .
20

ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Ri g h t , w e s e e t h a t a t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e .
CHAIRPERSON : Yes .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR :

It in dica te s to b id de rs th is d ocu me n t must b e

s i gn e d a n d s u b m i t t e d t o g e t h e r w i t h y o u r b i d .

And there is a signature

p a g e a v a i l a b l e at 2 0 8 5 . A n d t h e n i t e x p l a i n s i n a d d i t i o n to th at t ha t the
bidders are required to sign and submit the standard bidding document

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
SBD5 which is also a document dealing with th e NI P o blig atio n .

So, i n

f ai rness to Ms Memela I would just like to understand ho w i t c o u l d b e t h a t
d e s p i t e t h i s b e i n g p a rt of th e RFP, t he N IP o bliga t io n w as n ot u nd e rta ke n
by bidders.
M S M E M E L A: Th e NI P oblig atio n .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : H’ m m .
M S M E M E L A:

O k a y.

L i k e I s a i d C h a i r e a r l i er on that the tender

d o c u m e n t a t i o n i s w o r k e d o n b y th e Te a m th at are sit ting a t th e C FS T
Te a m a n d o f c o u r s e s o m e t i m e s t h e y w o u l d n e e d i f I w a s i n v o l v e d i n t h i s , I
10

would have guided them in terms of the guidelines of the DTI .

Wha t

s h o u l d b e h e r e a n d I t h i nk I s u s p e c t a l t h o u g h I a m n o t a w a r e , I s u s p e c t
t hat t h e y h a d p u t i t h e r e i n c a s e t h e S u p p l i e r Development program or the
Supplier Development commitment from these multinational suppliers
does not come through.
Remember

I

t old

yo u

on

Frida y

th at

m ost

multin at iona l

c o m p a n i e s o r m a y b e b i d d e r s o r s u p p l i e r s o f SAAT, they have never
adhered to the NIP obligation because that was the control and
Management of the DTI. So now I would just like to go through this, it is
just two pages and I am not going to read everything. I just want to make
20

i t c l e a r f o r M s H o f m e y r t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t – wh e n t h e y t a l k a b o u t t h e
requirement of the tender .. .(in terve n es).
CHAIRPERSON : Hang on.
M S M E M E L A: What elements.
CHAIRPERSON : Yes . When y ou – wh a t y o u w a n t t o r e a d i s i t p a rt of th e
request for bid document?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A: Ye s Chair, it is part of the tender document.
CHAIRPERSON : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A: And then I am going to tell you which page.
CHAIRPERSON : L e t u s g o t h e r e .
M S M E M E L A: Yes .
CHAIRP ERSON: J a .
M S M E M E L A: Yes . It i s p a g e 2 0 6 2 .
CHAIRPERSON : 2 0 6 4 – 6 2 ?
M S M E M E L A: 2 0 6 2 C h a i r.
10

CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. Ye s .
M S M E MELA:

You will s ee here Chair on this page it talk s about

e v a l u a t i o n c r i t e r i a . A n d i t g i v e s y o u p h a s e o n e . P h a s e o n e – j a , I sa i d I
a m n o t g o i n g t o r e a d e v e r y t h in g . I a m j u s t l i s t i n g t h e .. .(int e rven es).
CHAI RPERSON: Yes .
M S M E M E L A:

Yes . Phas e one talk s t o c r i t i c a l c r i t e r i a .

The critical

criteria are the part where if the bidders do not say yes or no, they get
d i s q u a l i f i e d a u t om a t i c a l l y. S o , t h i s t h e c r i t i c a l c r i t e r i a a r e t h e f i r s t p h a s e .
Phase two, in t h i s r e g a r d I t h i n k t h e c r i t i c a l c r i t e r i a w a s m ix e d w i t h t h e
f unc t iona li ty.
20

S o met im es t he fun ction alit y doe s n ot a p ply if t he crit ical

criteria is here. So, phase two talks to price and BEE evaluation.
CHAI RPERSON : Yes .
M S M E M E L A:

And then under BEE e v al u a t i o n a n d p r i c e i t t a l k s t o

reciprocal work s h o u l d a m o u n t t o 1 0 % o f t h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n t r a c t a n d i t
b e b a s e d o n t h e f o l l o w i n g . A n d t h e n i t s t a t e s w h a t i s r e q u i r e d f r o m t he m .
And then there is a partners h i p j o i n t v e n t u r e 1 0 % .

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There is Supplier

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Devel o pm e n t m u s t f o r m 1 0 % o f t h e c o n t r a c t v a l u e a n d i t m u s t e n t a i l t h e
f ol lowi ng. I t s ta te s w hat is requ ired from t he b idd e r.
So, when – Ch a i r w h e n t h e C F S T Te a m d o e s t h e e v a l u a ti o n ,
t hes e ar e t he el e me nt s t h ey a r e l o o k i n g a t . T h e y d o n o t e v e n l o o k a t t h e
NI P obligation at that time. So that is what I was trying to highlight to Ms
Hofmeyr is that the NIP obligation does not apply when Supplier
Development is part of the document a n d i t h a s b e e n m a d e a s t h e
element of the bid.
CHAIRPERSON :
10

But

you

agree

th a t

th e

p ag e

to

w hich

Ms

Hofmeyr referred you do e s o r d o e s s a y t h e N I P o b l i g a t i o n w a s a
requirement?
M S M E M E L A:

Where – o k a y c a n – Ch a i r c a n I a s k M s H o f m e y r

. .. (i nt erv ene s ).
CHAI RPE RS ON: I t w as pa g e – wh a t p a g e was that?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : I t co mme nce s a t 2 0 8 3 .
CHAIRPERSON : 2 0 8 3 .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes Chair.
CHAIRPERSON : I s my und erst an din g o f th at pa rt o f t he pag e cor re ct?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : I nde e d Ch air.
20

CHAIRPERSON : 2 0 8 3 .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes .
CHAIRPERS O N: J a .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Tha t is wh ere t h e whole Appendix dealing with the
NIP obligation b e g i n s . B u t I c a n g i v e M s M e m e l a a n o t h e r r e f e r e n c e t h a t
will make it absolutely clear it was an obligation of this RFP. But b ef ore I

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
g e t t h e r e j u s t t o c l a r i f y, y o u w e r e n o t i n v o l v e d i n t h e s p e c i f i c a t i o n s f o r
t hi s bi d, were y o u?
M S M E M E L A: No.
ADV KATE HOFM EY R:

No.

understand your evidence.

So that is left to the CFST Te a m a s I
T h e y p u t o u t t h e RFP a n d t h e y d e f i n e i t s

criteria, correct?
M S M E M E L A: Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes .
M S M E M E L A:
10

I t is no t up to th e CFST members to decide what the

c r i t e r i a o r m a y be t h e r e q u i r e m e n t s a r e i n t e r m s o f t h e N I P o b l i g a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

Well your evidence suggested that actually you were

s a y i n g wh e n i t c o m e s t o h o w t h e y d e a l t w ith t he ma tt er, t hey de alt w i th
t he ma tt er i n a m a n n e r t h a t s h o w e d t h a t a s f a r a s t h e y w e r e c o nc e r n e d
t he N IP obl ig at i on – NI P was not – t h e N I P r e q u i r e m e n t w a s n o t a n
obligation. That is how I understood your evidence.
M S M EM E L A: Th e evi den ce e a rlier o n.
CHAIRPERSON : Your ev idenc e.
M S M E M E L A: Th e e v i d e n c e . R e m e m b e r t h e e v i d e n c e C h a i r w a s t a l k i n g
a b o u t t h e r e q u i r e m e n t s o f t e n d e r. S o , I w a n t t o c l a r i f y t h a t c o n f u s i o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON : J a b u t t h e q u e s t i o n i s t h i s , p a g e 2 0 8 3 .
M S MEMELA : Yes Chair.
CHAIRPERSON :

And I have just had a look and that fi rs t p ara gra p h

m a k e s i t c l e a r i n t h a t a f t e r t h e c a b i n e t d ecision re ferre d t o the rein al l
state and parastatal purchases, lease contracts, for goods, works and
s e r v i c e s e n t e r e d i n t o a ft er t his d at e, t ha t is 3 0 Ap ril 1 9 9 7 , a r e s u b j e c t t o

Page 187 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
t he NIP r eq uire men ts . Th at is wh at it sa ys.
M S M E M E L A: Th at i s w ha t it s a y s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON : Now something is not a requirement if you can do – y o u
can dispense with it.
M S M E M E L A: Chair this .. . (intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON : Th at s u g g e s t t h a t i t i s o b l i g a t o r y.
M S M E M E L A: J a .
CHAIRPERSON : Th at i s h ow I rea d it.
M S M E M E L A: Yes .
10

CHAIRPERSON : So, I want you to say exactly how you understand this
a s w e l l i r r e s p e c t i v e o f w h e t h e r i n p r a c t i c e i t w a s a p pl i e d . B u t i s t h a t h o w
y o u u n d e r st and t hi s?
M S M E M E L A: Th e u nders tan d ing Ch a i r a s I s a i d t h i s i s c o m i n g f r o m t h e
g u i d e l i n e s o f t he D TI in t erms o f th e NI P o b liga tion .
CHAIRPERSON : Yes .
M S M E M E L A:

And it is copied and pasted on these things so it is

. .. ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON : But yo u u n d e r s t a n d i t t o – d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d it th e wa y
t hat I un ders ta nd i t ?
20

M S M E M E L A: I un ders t an d t h e w a y t h a t y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t w h e n i t t a l k s
t o t he m ul ti nat io nal c omp an ies alo ne wit h no a pp lica t ion o f Su p p lie r
Development.
CHAIRPERSON : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A: Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON :

Okay but do you agree that in this paragraph that we

Page 188 of 216

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
t al k a b o u t . . .(i nt erv ene s ) .
M S M E M E L A: J a .
CHAIRPERSON : No distinction is made between multinational companies
a n d c o m p a n i e s w h o s u p p l y d e v e l o p m e n t ? D o y o u a g r e e w i th t h a t ?
M S M E M E L A: I n th is doc u m e n t I a g r e e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON : You agree with that. But y ou rely on s omething els e to
s a y . . .(i nt erv ene s ).
M S M E M E L A:

I rely on th e p rop er le gisla tion fro m t he DTI th at gives

d i ff e r e n c e s b e t w e e n S u p p l i e r D e v e l o p m e n t p r og r a m w h i c h i s u n d e r t h e
10

i n d i r e c t NIP obligation ve rs u s t h e N I P o b l i g a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yes .

O k ay alright.

So, Ms Hofmey r c a n t a k e i t f r o m

t here.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR :

Yes , I will draw y our attention to the earlier

p r o v i s i o n o f t h e RFP t hat mad e it ve ry c l e a r t h a t i t w a s a c o n d i t i o n o f th e
proposal that bidders comply with a NIP obligation. So, I am not relying
s i m p l y o n A n n e x u re 1 3 w h i c h I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e i s c u t a n d
paste from something from the DTI.
M S M E M E L A: J a .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR :
20

Let us see what the people who specified the

c o n d i t i o ns o f t h e b i d r e q u i r e d .
M S M E M E L A: Which page?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : I t is at 2 04 3 – 4 7 . Yo u w i l l s e e t h e r e i s a c l a u s e
on that page 1.2. Can you read the heading of that clause?
M S M E M E L A: You s aid 2047, ri g h t ?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR :

2 0 4 7 a n d y o u w i l l s e e i t s ta r t w i t h a h e a d i n g ,

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
c o n d i t i o n s a n d t h e n t h e r e i s a 1 . 1 a n d a 1 . 2 . D o y o u s ee t h a t ?
M S M E M E L A: 1 . 1 a n d 1 . 2 y e s .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes . What is the heading of 1.2?
M S M E M E L A: Condition of the Proposal.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Right. And re a d 1 . 2 . 1 , t h e f irs t sen te nce p lea se .
M S M E M E L A:
t he

“Th is b id is su bject to an o ff set o bliga tion u n d e r
N at io nal

In d ustria l

Participat ion

r equ ire men ts

m a n d a t e d b y t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d
I ndus t ry. ”
10

ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Th an k yo u.
M S M E M E L A: Direct – c a n I c o n t i n u e ?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes .
M S M E M E L A: Because I mentioned direct NIP and i n d i r e c t N I P C h a i r.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : O h c e r t a i n l y.
M S M E M E L A: Yes .
““Direct NIP” which is used in procurement where there is
p o t e n t i a l t o d e v e l o p o r s u p p o r t d i r e c t s t r a te gi c i n d u s t r i e s
or indirect NIP which is used in procurement where there
i s n o p o te n t i a l f o r l o c a l m a n u f a c t u r i n g o r s u p p o r t i n g

20

strategic industries and is to be applied to this bid as one
o f t h e f o u r t i e r s o f p ro c u r e m e n t .”
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes , so u nle ss y o u t e l l m e o t h e r w i s e M s M e m e l a ,
I r ead t hi s t o ma k e i t abs olut ely cle ar t o b id de r s . T h i s b i d i s s u b j e c t t o
t he o ff s et ob li ga ti on unde r t he N IP and t he n t h at is fo llo wed up in
Appendix 13 because the details of th e NI P p rog ra m a re set out t h e

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
o b l i g a t i o n s o f th e bidd ers a re mad e cle a r. You ha ve to im me d ia t e ly a le r t
t he D TI a ft er y ou are s u c c e s s f u l l y a w a r d e d t h e b i d .

So, in that whole

c o n s p e c t u s o f t h i s RFP c a n y o u i n d i c a t e t o u s w h y y o u s t i l l m a i n t a i n t h a t
i t wa s n o t a r e q u i r e m e n t o f t h e RFP ?
M S M E M E L A: Ch a i r I t h i n k e i t h e r M s H o f m e y r i s n o t u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h a t
I a m try i ng t o po int out.

In t he p rovisio n t hat she a sked me t o re ad i t

t al ks about i ndi rec t v ers us dire ct N IP.

D irect NI P, t h at is whe re it i s

b e t w e e n t he m ul ti nati o nal co mpa ny an d D T I, SAAT d oes n o t g e t i n v o l v e d .
And indirect NIP it could be under four tiers and it could be th ro ug h
10

supply development and through other elements that I do not remember
right now.
But I am just trying to say still this d o e s n o t s a y, o k a y t h e N I P
o b l i g at io n, t he d i re c t p a r t o f i t s h o u l d h a v e a p p l i e d h e r e b e c a u s e t h e y a r e
a c t u a l l y s a y i n g t o t h e su p p l i e r s e i t h e r o r a n d t h e n g o a s f a r a s g i v i n g t h e
suppliers the link to the DTI. This is when the suppliers is going to find
o u t t h a t y o u c a n n o t a p p l y b o t h Supplier Dev e l o p m e n t a n d N I P o b l i g a t i o n
b o t h b e c a u s e l i k e I s a i d e a r l i e r t h e Supplier Dev e l o p m e n t i s m a n a g e d a n d
controlled by the SOC versus the direct NIP which is managed and
controlled by the DTI.

20

SAAT does not even take – i n fa ct th ey de al w ith DT I
i m m e d i a t e l y a f t e r the tender has been given to them and then DTI is
notified that, okay these guys are the ones that have been awarded.
T h e n th e D TI i s g oi n g to de al wit h t hem. Ye s .. .(in terve n es).
CHAIRPERSON : But . . .(i n ter v e n e s ) .
M S M E M E L A: So, I am hopi n g t h a t I a m c l e a r t h i s t i m e C h a i r.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
CHAIRPERSON : Yes . The NIP prov is ions .
M S M E M E L A: Yes Ch a i r.
CHAIRPERSON :

You s ay th er e is a re fe ren ce he re to dire ct N IP and

i n d i r e c t N I P.
M S M E M E L A: Th is is i nd irect NI P C h a i r. S o , t h e d i r e c t – y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: But the pr o v i s i o n s w o u l d b e t h e s a m e . T h e d i ff e r e n c e
would be which one is regarded a s d i r e c t , w h i c h o n i s r e g a r d e d a s
indirect.
M S M E M E L A: Th e prov is io n is n ot ne ce ssa rily t he sam e.
10

CHAIRPERSON : Yes .
M S M E M E L A: Because on the indirect NIP.
CHAIRPERSON : J a .
M S M EM E L A: I t gi ves back the BEE po ints to the SOC wh ere t h ey n o w
c a l c u l a t e th a t o k a y u n d e r – I a c t u a l l y m e n t i o n e d t h i s o n F r i d a y
. .. (i nt erv ene s ).
CHAIRPERSON : Supplier Development.
M S M E M E L A: Yes . Under Supplier Development, this is wha t th e loc al
s u p p l ie r o r b l a c k o w n e d s u p p l i e r i s g o i n g g a i n o r b e n e f i t .. .(int e rven es).
CHAIRPE RSON : M u s t d o .

20

M S M E M E L A:

Out of this.

I even made an example Chair of the tier

a g r e e m e n t f o r i n s t a n c e t h a t m a y b e i t i s s h i p p ed f r o m B r u s s e l s t o D u r b a n
a n d t h en t h e y c o u l d a g r e e o r make and arrangement that, okay the local
s u p p l i e r t o – wh a t y o u c a l l t h is – t o b e n e f i t o u t o f t h i s c o n t r a c t . T h e y w i l l
b e t h e n b e t r a n s p o r t i n g t h e t i e r s f r o m D u r b a n .. .(int e rven es).
CHAIRPERSON : Durba n .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A: To S A AT r i g h t . A nd I e v e n a d d e d th at o the r ele me nt s of
t he Su ppli er D ev e l op men t are thro ugh job cre at io n a nd the n a l s o t h e
o t h e r s a r e t r a n s f e r o f s k i l l s , k n ow-h o w a n d t e c h n o l o g y.

So that now is

i n d i r e c t N I P o b l i g a t i o n C h a i r. A n d t h e n t h e N IP obligation is the one that
i s m e n t i o n e d i n t he p a g e w h e r e M s H o f m e y r w a s r e a d i n g f o r m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Yes .
M S M E M E L A: Exact l y. T h a t o n e i s d i r e c t a n d i t i s d e a l t w i t h b y D T I a n d
t he mu lt ina ti o na l c omp anie s. SAAT ha s no thing t o d o wit h t ha t .
CHAIRPERS O N: Yes . SAAT would be inv olv ed with an indir e c t NI P.
10

M S M E M E L A: Th ank y o u Ch a ir.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes .
CHAIRPERSON :

But when we talk about a NIP obligation it could be

e i t h e r o r. I t c o u l d b e e i t h e r d i r e c t N I P o r i n d i r e c t .
MS

M E M E L A:

Or

indirect,

ye s

C h a i r.

Hence,

I

was

saying

. .. (i nt erv ene s ).
CHAIRPERSON : Whether it is a direct or indirect.
M S M E M E L A: Yes Chair.
CHAIRP ERSON: I t w ou ld be o blig at ory, is th a t right ?
M S M E M E L A: I t wi ll be oblig a tory.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Yes .
M S M E M E L A: Which in this re g a r d r e m e m b e r I r e a d f o r y o u t h e e l e m e n t s
o f t hi s t ende r.
CHAIRPERSON : J a .
M S M E M E L A: Which involved the Supplier Development .
CHAIRPERSON : J a .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A: Which counted 10% .
CHAIRPERSON : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A: Th e di rec t NIP C ha ir, Ms Ho fm eyr did no t re ad t h a t . I d o
n o t k n o w i f i t i s i n t h a t d o c u m e n t b ut t he d ire ct N IP cha rge is 30% of th e
contract.

Ye s .

A n d t h e n o n t h e S u p p l i e r Development because I even

m e n t i o n e d t o y o u t h a t I d i d n o t a p p l y o r m a y b e m y Te a m d i d n o t a p p l y
t hat 30 % se t a s i de th erefore t h ey w e r e s a y i n g 1 0 % t h a t i s w h e r e th e y w i l l
b e ev a l u a t e d u p o n .
CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y. M s H o f m e y r.
10

ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Are you awa re that SAAT engaged with the DTI
after this agreement was concluded in about March of 2019.

We r e y o u

aware of that evidence of Mr Human?
M S M E M E L A: M a r c h 2 0 1 9 Chair, I was n o t at SAAT so I am n o t a wa r e
who and how DTI was approached but I do know that f o r t h e e n t i r e t e n d e r
contract, I did approach DTI for the CCMA case and asked them the
d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e d i r e c t N I P v e r s u s in d i r e c t N I P. I r e m e m b e r t h e D G
o f the N I P o bli g a t i o n a c t u a l l y t o o k m e t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t i s
f ol lowed an d ev e n ex pl aine d t h a t y o u c a n n o t a p p l y b o t h . Yo u a p p l y e i t h e r
o r t h e o t h e r.
20

CHAIRPERSON : O k a y.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : And Ms Memela are you aware fro m Mr H uman’s
e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e DTI responde d to SAAT, a sked fo r th e b id – t h e RFP,
a s k e d f o r J M Av i a t i o n a n d A A R b i d s a n d c o nc l u d e d t h a t e i t h e r S A AT o r J M
Av iation ought to hav e immediately alerted the DTI after they were
a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r p u r s u a n t t o te n d e r o b l i g a t i o n s .

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A: I a m n o t a w a r e o f th at C ha irp e rson .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : O k a y. T h e r e i s a n a ff i d a v i t t o t h a t e ff ec t f r o m t h e
DTI included in Mr Human’s Annexures. We will go there in a moment if
we can.

But before we do that, I just want to c o m p l e t e o n t h e RFP

b e c a u s e w e are in that d o c u m e n t . I t i s i n E x h i b i t D D 2 2 E M s M e m e l a .
M S M E M E L A: Chair, are we still – a re we c l o s i n g u p o n N I P b e c a u s e I d o
not want us to leave. There is this part that you have raised that talks
a b o u t M r H u m a n . . .(i nt e r v e n e s ) .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes , I – s ure, I will take you to the DTI Annexure.
10

M S M E M E L A: Yes . So, I want us to c los e that.
CHAIRPERSON : Yes . No, s he will tak e y ou.
M S M E M E L A: So that whoever is watching this understands exactly how
it works.
CHAIRPE RSON : J a .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : O k ay s o t h e DTI a ff i d a v i t i s i n E x h i b i t 2 2 G i t i s
o n e o f t h e f i l e s o f M r H u m a n ’s e v i d e n c e .
M S M E MELA: 2 2 G ?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes .
M S M E M E L A: 2 2 .

20

ADV KATE HOFMEYR : G .
M S M E M E L A: O h . P a g e ?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : I t co mme nce s a t p a g e 2 9 7 2 . C h a i r t h a t i s w h e r e
t he aff i d a v i t o f M r O c t o b e r c o m m e n c e s .

That is 2972.

The relevant

p a r a g r a p h t o w h i c h I w a s ma k i n g r e f e r e n c e i n m y q u e s t i o n t o M s M e m e l a
appears at 2975.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A:

Mr October I must put it on record Chair that Mr Lionel

O c t o b e r i s t h e D G D e p a r t m e n t o f Trade and In d u s t r y.

It does not state

t hat he is the DG f or NI P oblig atio n. So wh ich p ag e you s a i d I m u s t g o
t o?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : I am n ot su re w h at to ma ke of t hat re spo n se. Ar e
we to disregard what he said in his affi d a v i t ?
M S M E M E L A:

No, I am not s a y i n g t h at.

I a m no t sa ying th a t

Chairperson, I am saying remember for each and every departm e n t i n o u r
government there is a certain person deals who a specific subject.
10

CHAIRPERSON : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A: Yes Chair.
CHAIRPER SON : No, hang on hang on .. .(int e rven es).
M S MEMELA : So, I just thought I should put on the record.
CHAIRPERSON : Wa i t u n t i l y o u h e a r w h a t q u e s t i o n y o u a r e a s k e d .
M S M E M E L A: O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON : And then if you need to emphasise that in answer to the
q u es t i o n t h e n y o u c a n e m p h a s i s e . B ut let u s h e a r w h a t t h e q u e s t i o n i s
f i r st .
M S M E M E L A:

20

Chair the question was, was I aware that M r H u m a n o r

whoever from SAAT had communicated with the DTI and then there is
c o m m u n i c a t i o n t h a t s a y s J M Av i a t i o n s h o u l d h a v e n otif ie d SAAT o r SAAT
s h o u l d h a v e no t i f i e d SAAT.
CHAIRPERSON : H’ m m .
M S M E M E L A: Yes . So that was the ques tion.
CHAIRPERSON :

I th o u g h t t h a t w e a r e c o m i n g t o t h i s a ff i d a v i t

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
. .. (i nt erv ene s ).
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : I nde e d.
CHAIRPERSON :

Because Ms Hofmeyr wants t o a s k a q u e s t i o n o n t h i s

a ff i d a v i t .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Yes .
M S M E M E L A: O k a y.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : So the .. .(in terve n es).
CHAIRPERS O N: O f M r O c t o b e r.
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : O h , M s M e m e l a h a d r e q u e s t e d u s t o b e t a k e n t o
10

t he aff idav i t w hi c h i s w hy we a re go ing t h e r e a n d t h e r e l e v a n t p a r a g r a p h
i s at 2975 a t para graph 1 5. Th ere is so me ba ckgrou nd th a t h as b ee n se t
o u t b y t h e D i r e c t o r G e n e r al o f t h e D T I p r i o r t o t h a t t a l k i n g a b o u t N I P
obligations. How they work in the tender process etcetera.
M S M E M E L A: H’ m m .
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : And then at paragr a p h 1 5 Mr O c t o b e r s a y s:
“As advised in paragraphs 3 and 6 supra whenever a NIP
o b l i g a t i o n i s c reated by virtue of a purchase agreement
between a procurement entity and service provider as in
t he pre s ent i n s tance bet wee n S A AT a n d J M Av i a t i o n , t h e r e

20

is an obligation on both the procuring entity as well as the
s u c c e s s f u l b i d d e r t o i n f o r m t h e D T I o f t he p u r c h a s e
a g r e e m e n t . I n th i s re g ard o ne may not e tha t the N at ion a l
Tr e a s u r y P r a c t i c e n o t e i s a d d r e s s e d t o a l l A c c o u n t i n g
O ff i c e r s , a l l A c c o u n t i n g A u t h o r i t i e s , a l l C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l
O ff i c e r s , a l l H e a d s o f P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r i e s a n d a l l

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Provincial Accountant s G e n e r a l . In pa rag ra ph 5 . 1 of th e
National Treasury Practice note Accounting Officers and
Accounting Authorities are req u i r e d t o u t i l i s e t h e r e v i s e d
s t a n d a r d bi d d i n g d o c um e n t f o r N I P o b l i g a t i o n s S B D 5 w h e n
inviting bids that are estimated to be in excess of 10
m i l l i o n Rand . ”
Chair I just pause there because you will recall we were in
Appendix 13 of the RFP th er e wa s spe cif ic reference to the fact that the
b i d d e r s h a d t o c o mp l e t e t h e S B D 5 f o r m . T h e n i t g o e s o n t o s a y:
10

According to paragraph 5.1 B Accountin g O ff i c e r s a n d A c c o u n t i n g
Authorities ;
“Are required to furnish the DTI with the information
l i s t e d i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h a f t e r th e aw ard o f a ny co n tra ct
t hat i s i n ex c e s s o f 10 m i l l i o n Rand .

Th e DTI s co nta ct

details are then set out”.
And importantly, he says , pa rag ra ph 5 .2 provid es tha t t h e
“i n f o r m a t i o n m u s t b e s e n t w i t h i n 5 w o r k i n g d a y s a f t e r a w a r d o f a
c o n t r a c t .” So Ms Memela y o u a s k e d t o b e t a k e n t o w h e r e i t w a s t ha t t h e
DTI ’s D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l h a d m a d e i t c l e a r i n h i s e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h i s
20

Commission that the re was an obligation on both SAAT and JM Aviation
within 5 days of the award of the tender to them to alert the DTI to the
f ac t t ha t t he ag ree men t had bee n co nclu d e d .
M S M E M E L A: Chair?
ADV KATE HOFMEYR : Are you satisfied that that is his evidence?
MS MEMELA:

C h a i r i n h i s a ff i d a v i t M r o r M s O c t o b e r i s a d d r e s s i n g

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
both direct and indirect NIP obligation as I was saying earlier and he
goes as far at the end because like now before that he is talking about
1 0 m i l l i o n o r o v e r 1 0 m i l l i o n a n d w h a t e v e r.

But he goes as far as

saying under paragraph 19.
“In the present instance.”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Of course he is not clear but like I mean remember we
m i g h t i n t e r p r e t t h i s d i ff e r e n t l y b a s e d o n w h a t i s w r i t t e n h e r e . B u t f o r m e
this statement says, after he has stated exactly what is expected of the
10

bidders, multinational bidders in terms of the direct NIP obligation to
notify the DTI or the Accounting Authority which is the Board,
A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r w h i c h i s t h e C O t o n o t i f y D T I o n t h e d i r e c t N I P
obligation. But on this instant in the present instance meaning now he
understands that it is not the same NIP obligation because this one the
supply development applies therefore he even says:
“It was the obligation of JM Aviation being the local
company

that

is

benefitting

from

this

supply

development. They should have notified DTI.”
Not because DTI is going to manage or control them.
20

But at

least they will have a record and of course this should be managed by
S A AT b u t t h e y w i l l h a v e a r e c o r d t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e d i r e c t N I P
obligation did not apply there was indirect NIP that involved Supplier
D e v e l o p m e n t . S o t h a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e a ff i d a v i t M s H o f m e y r
based on the background I have on the NIP obligation.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J a M s M e m e l a t h e d i ff i c u l t y i s t h a t n o w h e r e i n

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
t h i s a ff i d a v i t d o e s M r O c t o b e r d r a w t h i s d i r e c t / i n d i r e c t N I P c o n t r a s t .
He does not refer to a Supplier Development.

What he says in

paragraph 19 in fact and I will read it into the record is:
“In the present instance despite the fact that there
was a duty on JM Aviation to immediately inform the
DTI that the particular contract was awarded to it, it
failed to inform the DTI.”
That is what he is saying in paragraph 18. He has previously
told us that there is an obligation.
10

He sketched what it is.

He said

there are – it has to be done in five days. And what he says at 19 is he
tells the reader what happened in this case.

What happened in this

case is despite the fact that there was a duty on JM Aviation to
immediately inform the DTI that the particular contract was awarded to
i t , i t f a i l e d t o d o s o . D o y o u r e a d i t i n a d i ff e r e n t w a y ?
M S M E M E L A : I t l o o k s l i k e y o u r e a d i t i n t h e d i ff e r e n t w a y i n t e r m s o f
understanding the NIP obligation.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no. What she is asking ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: Chair the ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
20

What she is asking is whether your reading of it

d i ff e r s f r o m h e r r e a d i n g o f i t ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s i t d i ff e r s f r o m h e r r e a d i n g o f i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Not the legislation.
CHAIRPERSON: Right.
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

Or the guidelines that are guiding the NIP

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
obligation.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

Chair I think we have exhausted

the NIP obligation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e c a n g o b a c k t o t h e R F P b e c a u s e t h e r e i s
another provision of the RFP that concern that was breached by JM
Aviation.
M S M E M E L A : C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e s e e m s t o b e a p r o b l e m .
10

MS MEMELA: I want to add just one statement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . R e m e m b e r I m e n t i o n e d t o y o u t h a t w e h a d a t S A AT
three big contracts.

The logistics, the tyre and components.

The

c o m p o n e n t t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t n o w. A n d t h e n o u t o f t h e s e t h r e e
the two components were provided by a multinational company with no
i n v o l v e m e n t o f l o c a l c o m p a n y.

The tyre was provided by Bridgestone

b e i n g b r a c e d i n B r u s s e l s w i t h o u t a n y i n v o l v e m e n t o f l o c a l c o m p a n y.
The NIP obligation had always involved them because they are dealing
with that but the logistics it was provided for by KWE being the South
20

A f r i c a n c o m p a n y.

By virtue of that them being the South African

c o m p a n y a n d h a v i n g t h e B E E p o i n t s a n d s t u ff t h e y d i d n o t h a v e t o
adhere to the NIP obligation.

And as a result there is proof that the

DTI did not even approach or expect the KWESA to adhere to the NIP
o b l i g a t i o n b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a l o c a l c o m p a n y.

So that is what I was

t r y i n g t o e x p l a i n t o M s H o f m e y r t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n d i r e c t a n d

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
i n d i r e c t N I P o b l i g a t i o n . W e c a n c l o s e C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Let us go back to DD22E if we may because

that is the document that contains the RFP and ...(intervenes).
MS MEMELA: DD?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

E – 22E which had the RFP that we were

looking at.
MS MEMELA: The one that we were looking at before?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: DDB or E?
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E .
MS MEMELA: E.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p i c k i t u p a t p a g e 2 0 5 4 i f w e m a y. 2 0 5 4 o f
Exhibit DD22E.
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i l l s e e t h e r e M s M e m e l a t h e r e i s a c l a u s e
1.13 headed Corruption.
MS MEMELA: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e t h a t ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s I s e e t h a t .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h i s w a s a p r o v i s i o n o f t h e R F P t h a t s a i d
the following:
“If a bidder or any person employed by the bidder is
f o u n d t o h a v e e i t h e r d i r e c t l y o r i n d i r e c t l y o ff e r e d ,
promised or given to any person in the employ of
S o u t h A f r i c a n A i r w a y s Te c h n i c a l a n y c o m m i s s i o n ,

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
g r a t u i t y, g i f t o r o t h e r c o n s i d e r a t i o n S o u t h A f r i c a n
A i r w a y s Te c h n i c a l s h a l l h a v e t h e r i g h t a n d w i t h o u t
prejudice to any other legal remedy which it may
have in regard to any loss or additional cost or
expenses to disqualify the RFP bidder from further
participation

in

this

process

and

any

other

subsequent process in this regard.”
And then it goes on and records:
“The RFP bidder will be responsible for all and any
10

l o s s t h a t S o u t h A f r i c a n A i r w a y s Te c h n i c a l m a y s u ff e r
as a result thereof.

In addition South African

A i r w a y s Te c h n i c a l r e s e r v e s t h e r i g h t t o e x c l u d e s u c h
bidder from future transactions with South African
Airways.”
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e t h a t ?
MS MEMELA: I see that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w w h a t c o n c e r n s m e a b o u t t h i s p r o v i s i o n i s
that it prohibits bidders or any person employed by the bidder to either
20

d i r e c t l y o r i n d i r e c t l y g i v e t o a n y p e r s o n i n t h e e m p l o y o f S A AT a n y
c o m m i s s i o n , g r a t u i t y, g i f t o r o t h e r c o n s i d e r a t i o n .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I w o u l d l i k e t o p u t t o y o u i n t h e c o n t e x t o f
that prohibition.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Why it was not that when JM Aviation paid

i n d i r e c t l y f o r y o u r b e n e f i t b e c a u s e w e t r a v e r s e d t h a t o n F r i d a y.

Yo u

accepted that it was indirect benefit that R2.5 million. And they paid
t h a t t o y o u a n e m p l o y e e o f S A AT t o p u r c h a s e y o u r B e d f o r d v i e w h o u s e .
MS MEMELA: What?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Why would that not be in breach of this

provision?
MS MEMELA: Chair I still maintain and the reason why I corrected Ms
Hofmeyr on Friday when she said direct and I said indirect. I maintain
10

t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t b e n e f i t w i t h r e g a r d t o t h i s t e n d e r. T h e r e a s o n w h y I
say that is because the agreement to sell the property of my mother
and look to Mr Ndzeku had nothing to do with me other than that the –
some of the deposit being 1.5 was going to be paid to the Cove Ridge
p r o p e r t y.

Contrary to what Ms Hofmeyr keeps on referring to the

B e d f o r d v i e w.

Of course like that happened after I had changed my

m i n d a b o u t t h e C o v e R i d g e p r o p e r t y. N o w t h e r e a s o n w h y I a m s a y i n g
there was no benefit direct or indirect is the fact that I did not sit in the
Bid Evaluation Committee.

I did not sit in the Board that made the

decision to award to AAR and JM Aviation.
20

I did not reciprocate

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Well not sitting in the Board or in the Committee

w o u l d n o t a ff e c t t h e q u e s t i o n o f w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a b e n e f i t o r n o t t o
you and whether it was direct or indirect. Not sitting may be a point to
s a y, t h e r e w a s n o p r o b l e m b e c a u s e I d i d n o t h a v e d e c i s i o n m a k i n g
powers which you have said before.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: But I think your answer you are supposed to deal with
why was this not an indirect benefit to you?
MS MEMELA: Why it was not an indirect benefit to me it is because I
had never reciprocated the JM to have a winning bid either in GPU or in
component. Ms Hofmeyr does have – Hofmeyr sorry ja. Hofmeyr does
have evidence that the submission that was made as a recommendation
to Exco, to BAC initially it said, Lufthansa being the highest preferred
b i d d e r.
10

Remember Ms Sambo put it out there to the public that

N o n t s a s a M e m e l a h e l p e d J M t o b e t h e w i n n i n g b i d d e r. I h a d t o c o r r e c t
that.

The winning bidder was Lufthansa because it was a highest

s c o r e d b i d d e r.

And because of certain risk that were picked by the

Board or maybe the CFST it was written back.

And then the second

one was Air France based on the points that were put by the CFST that
okay the risk will be if we start with any other company that has never
d e a l t w i t h S A AT b e f o r e s o w e w o u l d r a t h e r a p p o i n t o r a w a r d t o A i r
France and Kwane Capital at that time. Now I said to you Chair I had
s i g n e d i n s u p p o r t o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n b y t h e C F S T. M e a n i n g I w a s
satisfied with what they had said to me that okay the reason why we
20

are going for Air France is because of this.

So the reason why I am

saying there is no direct or indirect benefit or gratification towards me
because I did not sign any tender that was giving AAR and JM in 2016
saying they must win this.

We signed the recommendation for Air

F r a n c e a n d t h e n t h e B o a r d m a d e i t s o w n i n d e p e n d e n t d e c i s i o n t o s a y, I
see Management CFST you have recommended this but from us as the

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
Accounting Authority of this organisation this is what we think should
happen and then they overruled the recommendation by the CFST and
M a n a g e m e n t o f S A AT a n d a w a r d e d i t t o J M A v i a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r j u s t o n e f o l l o w u p q u e s t i o n i f I m a y a n d
then it might be a convenient time to talk about logistics? Ms Memela
this particular provision of the RFP does not link the benefit to any
possible influence that it may have on the recipient, do you see that?
MS MEMELA: Are you – okay can you ask the question again?
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u r e . I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r a n s w e r t o b e i t i s n o t
a benefit because I did not reciprocate.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
MS MEMELA: That is the evidence.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s a y t h i s c l a u s e o f t h e R F P d o e s n o t r e q u i r e i t
to constitute corruption under this clause that the benefit then be
reciprocated or the benefit result in an ability to influence decision
making. On its own terms it is a clear prohibition on any bidder directly
or indirectly giving a gratuity gift or other consideration to any person

20

i n t h e e m p l o y o f S A AT.

And I would like to know why if you contend

this provision was not breached by the R2.5 million that was used for
y o u r B e d f o r d v i e w h o u s e w h y i t i s ? A n d l e t m e j u s t b e c l e a r.
M S M E M E L A : C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r a n s w e r u n t i l t h i s p o i n t h a s d r a w n f o c u s o n
reciprocation.

I am saying reciprocation has nothing to do with this

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
provision.
MS MEMELA:

Chair it is read very clear that it talks to gratification,

gifts, gratuity gift or other consideration.

None of these apply to me

because there was no gratification and I explained – the reason why I
explained – why there was no gratification. I was getting to this. And
there was no gift coming from the bidder directly to me.

So that like

they can win the tender or do anything. I did explain earlier on Chair
t h a t t h e o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e l i k e w h i c h t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i l l s e e e v e n t u a l l y
either from Mr Ndzeku or after I had gone to Eastern Cape to send it
10

afterwards.

T h e y w i l l s e e t h a t l i k e t h a t o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e w a s s i g n e d

November 2015 and the fact that the – Mr Ndzeku through JM paid in
May 5 does not make the gratuity it – the gratuity to me or the gift. It
w a s s t i l l p a y i n g f o r t h a t p r o p e r t y t h a t w a s b o u g h t f r o m m y m o t h e r. A n d
secondly Chair the award was made by the Board I think on the 12th of
May 2016.

Remember Ms Hofmeyr is trying to link certain dates

because the payment was made on the 5 of May and then the award by
the Board was made on the 12 May 2016 but she did not add the fact
that the contract commenced in October 2016. Where after the award?
So in case like maybe there is a picture that is being put out there that
20

okay they must have used the money from here that they received from
S A AT t o p a y f o r t h e p r o p e r t y f o r m y m o t h e r a n d s t u ff l i k e – s o I j u s t h a d
to gooi in the date when the contract commenced which is all the
suppliers get paid after they start providing services.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r I a m j u s t m i n d f u l o f t h e t i m e . W e h a v e

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
hit 17:00 and you indicated ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e a r e a t 1 7 : 0 0 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t y o u w e r e h a p p y t o s i t l a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t w e n o w h a v e a g o o d i d e a t h a t M s M e m e l a

may have to come back.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

H’mm.

Because she and her legal representative are still

going to consult her next bet. So we have – one option is that we stop
and then when she comes back she comes back at a time when they
10

have been able to do – to consult an expert. And then she continues
and until she finishes that is one option. Another option would be that
we continue maybe for another 30 minutes but it may be that it will not
serve much purpose to continue for another 30 minutes if she is going
to come back anyway some other time. But it may well be that in terms
o f y o u r p l a n i t m i g h t h e l p y o u t o c l o s e o ff s o m e t h i n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H ’ m m .
CHAIRPERSON: What do you think?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r I w a n t t o p r o p o s e t h a t t h e r e i s m a y b e a
third option.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y ?
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y t h e d e b a t e b e t w e e n e x p e r t s .
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm.
MS MEMELA: May actually resolve themselves.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u k n o w t h a t i s h o w t h e e x p e r t s u s u a l l y o n e
side, one side ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

They look at – they give a report and then

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f t h e r e i s n o t a d i s p u t e b e t w e e n t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h e e x p e r t ’s e v i d e n c e i s v e r y l i m i t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

It simply does the metadata show what the

C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s t i g a t o r s h a s s a i d i t h a s s h o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A l l t h a t I a m r e l u c t a n t t o d o i s d e l a y a l l o f t h e
evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

In completing of Ms Memela for a situation

where there may be agreement between experts.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e j u s t d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I w a n t e d t o s a y i n r e l a t i o n t o f i n a l i s i n g h e r
evidence but for the expert engagement.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Which must certainly take place you had

indicated that we could continue for 30 minutes. My concern with that
is that Ms Mbanjwa has already indicated that she would like to reexamine.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d m y s e n s e i s t h a t t h a t w i l l n o t b e c o m p l e t e d
this evening.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no, no that will not be completed – that might not
be completed.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o o u r p r o p o s a l C h a i r i s r e a l l y t h e f o l l o w i n g . I f
it would be possible to start a bit earlier tomorrow we could then
c o m p l e t e M s M e m e l a ’s q u e s t i o n s f r o m o u r s i d e . W e c o u l d t h e n m o v e t o
the re-examination that Ms Mbanjwa wishes to do. And then once that
is completed subject to other clarifications we would move to the
evidence of Mr Ndzeku.

I h a v e a l r e a d y s p o k e n t o M r N d z e k u ’s l e g a l

representatives and they indicated that they would be able to start
e a r l y t o m o r r o w. I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h e t h e r I a s k e d M s M b a n j w a a b o u t t h a t
b u t w e c a n g e t h e r v i e w s n o w.

O u r p r o p o s a l f r o m t h e L e g a l Te a m ’s

s i d e w o u l d b e w e r e c o n v e n e a b i t e a r l i e r t o m o r r o w, w e s e e k t o c o n c l u d e
20

M s M e m e l a w i t h t h e r e - e x a m i n a t i o n t o m o r r o w a n d h o l d o ff o n e x p e r t s
because it may be resolved and she will not have to come back.

We

then move to the evidence of Mr Ndzeku which Chair I am fairly
confident we would complete tomorrow but possibly with a bit of use of
t h e e v i d e n c e o n W e d n e s d a y.
possibility

of

slotting

another

We had been in touch about the
witness

Page 210 of 216

in

on

Wednesday

but

10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
u n f o r t u n a t e l y I c a n r e p o r t t o y o u t h a t h i s L e g a l Te a m i s n o t a v a i l a b l e o n
W e d n e s d a y. S o w e a c t u a l l y d o h a v e W e d n e s d a y m o r n i n g t o t h e e x t e n t
t h a t y o u a r e a v a i l a b l e C h a i r t o t h e n c o n c l u d e M r N d z e k u ’s e v i d e n c e .
And it would be our submission that we then conclude this aspect of the
investigation and it would be in the interest of the Commission to do
so.
CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. Well let me check with Ms Memela and then I
will go to Ms Mbanjwa.

Would your situation permit you to be back

tomorrow? I know that you made special arrangements to be available
10

t o d a y.
MS MEMELA:

Okay Chair after my lawyer had mentioned to me that

she will need extra time to go through certain documentation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : I n c l u d i n g t h e p o l i c y o f t h e c o m p a n y, c e r t a i n l e g i s l a t i o n
a n d s t u ff s o b e f o r e s h e c a n s t a r t w i t h h e r r e - e x a m i n a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s s o I h a d a l r e a d y p o s t p o n e d m y t r i p a g a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S M E M E L A : To E a s t e r n C a p e s o I w i l l b e a v a i l a b l e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d b e a v a i l a b l e ?
M S M E M E L A : To m o r r o w y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m o r r o w. O h o k a y.
MS MEMELA: But I am not sure about the early part of it yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , j a w e w i l l t a l k a b o u t t h a t n o w. M s M b a n j w a
what do you say to this suggestion?

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : F i r s t l y C h a i r I m a y h a v e d i ff i c u l t i e s . I d o
not know how early is maybe that should be ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Well she is leaving it to me that is why she has not

said.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : N o , n o i t i s j u s t t h a t … ( i n d i s t i n c t ) C h a i r i s
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
listening.

Well I am thinking that well actually Ms Hofmeyr is

I f W e d n e s d a y ’s w i t n e s s i s n o t g o i n g t o b e c o m i n g a n d

therefore Wednesday morning is available for Mr Ndzeku to finish if he
10

did not finish – if he does not finish tomorrow afternoon I wonder
whether there would be a need to even start early tomorrow morning.
From your side how much more time do you think you might need to
finish your part before Ms Mbanjwa re-examines?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r i f i t w a s o n l y . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: I know that ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s o n l y m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja I know that Ms Memela will ...(intervenes).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t i s m e i n a r o o m w i t h o u t t h e C h a i r, M s
Memela.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s h e w i l l b e v e r y c r i s p t o m o r r o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O r M s M b a n j w a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e w i l l b e v e r y c r i s p t o m o r r o w.
M S M E M E L A : I w i l l b e c r i s p t o m o r r o w.
CHAIRPERSON: In her answers.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I should not be more than half an hour then

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. W e l l i n t h a t e v e n t i t d o e s n o t l o o k l i k e M s
Mbanjwa you can come – it does not look like we should really need to
start early so maybe we should just start normal time 10:00?
M S M E M E L A : Te n o ’ c l o c k . Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Would that be fine with you Ms Mbanjwa?
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s t h a t – n o t h a t w o u l d a s s i s t .
CHAIRPERSON: That would assist?
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a t w o u l d a s s i s t C h a i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. N o , n o t h a t i s f i n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r s o r r y I h a v e j u s t h a d a n i n d i c a t i o n f r o m
M r N d z e k u ’s l a w y e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y a r e a l i t t l e b i t c o n c e r n e d a b o u t h o w l o n g
Ms Mbanjwa anticipates the re-examination might be.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

20

Just insofar as how much time we would lose

t o m o r r o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o m a y b e i t w o u l d b e u s e f u l i f s h e c o u l d a l s o
give us an indication there.

I think they are quite keen to be able to

conclude the evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s M b a n j w a w h a t i s y o u r e s t i m a t i o n ? I w i l l n o t

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
allow you to have as much as you might wish but what is your estimate
of how much time you might need for re–examination?
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I – w e w a n t e d a f u l l d a y C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w i l l n o t g i v e y o u a f u l l d a y.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e n i f w e d o n o t g e t a f u l l d a y t h e n w e
will just take it as far as we can be allowed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B u t w h a t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

The re-examination contemplated in the regulations

as I understand it is meant to enable you to just clarify areas where the
witness might not have – her evidence might not be understood.

Yo u

k n o w. S o t h a t i s w h y I w o u l d n o t g i v e y o u a w h o l e d a y.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : To o m u c h t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

So I think if it helps you I can tell you that counsel

who have re-examined their clients before I do not remember anybody
w h o h a s g o n e b e y o n d t w o h o u r s i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y. M o s t l y i t h a s b e e n
under that. If that helps to give guidance. But let us say you get the
message from me.
MS MEMELA: I get the message.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: I get the message.
CHAIRPERSON: So let us start tomorrow at 10:00, do the best you can
to focus on really areas of clarification and then we will take it from
there.
M S M E M E L A : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . O k a y s o w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n f o r
t o d a y a n d r e s u m e t o m o r r o w. W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 11 F E B R U A RY 2 0 2 0

10

20

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10 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 210
TRANSCRIBER’S CERTIFICATE FOR COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE
CAPTURE
HELD AT
PARKTOWN, JOHANNESBURG

DATE HELD

: 2020-02-10

DAY:

: 210

TRANSCRIBERS

: B KLINE; M NETTA; D STANIFORTH;
B DODD; D BONTHUYS

Audio’s are typed verbatim, as far as audible/possible

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