C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R
1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N

1 0 J U LY 2 0 2 0

D AY 2 3 1

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CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

10 JULY 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH

Page 2 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 1 0 J U LY 2 0 2 0
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d yo u k n o w w h e r e t h a t c o m e s f ro m ?
[ I n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 0 : 5 9 ] d o y o u kn o w w h e r e t h a t c o m e s f r o m ?
Because

in

g o ve r n m e n t

the

media

b ri e f i n g s

m i n i st e r s

they

that

have

I

h a ve

been

seen

with

s h a ri n g

the

m i cr o p h o n e . T h e P r e m i e r a n d t h e M E C ’s t h e o n l y d i ff e r e n c e
h a s b e e n t h a t a f t e r e v e r y o n e h a s u s e d t h e m i cr o p h o n e
s o m e b o d y w o u l d c o m e a n d I t h i n k cl e a n o r w h a t e v e r s o t h a t
w e k n o w w h e r e t h a t c o m e f r o m b e c a u s e o n e m u st c a re f u l
10

a b o u t t o o m a n y a d vi c e s.
A D V M A S U K U S C : I n d e e d , M r C h a i r i t w a s j u st c o n v e y e d t o
m e I c a n n o t r e a l l y r e c a l l i f y o u w e re t o a s k m e w h o t h e
p e r s o n w a s, I w i l l t ry t o re c a l l a s t r yi n g t o f i n d m y s e a t i n g
a r r a n g e m e n t s a t t h a t st a g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

I think it is fine in the meantime are

y o u – w h o e v e r g a v e t h a t a d vi c e I w a n t t o kn o w w h e r e t h e y
get it from.

B e c a u se w e c a n n o t j u st b e ch o p p i n g a n d

c h a n g i n g b e c a u s e so m e b o d y t h a t t h e y a s k – s o t h a t sh o u l d
b e e n o u g h o n a c e rt a i n i s s u e .
20

A D V M A S U K U S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m n o t a m e d i c a l d o ct o r, I a m n o t – I r e l y
o n a d vi c e s b u t a l l a l o n g t h e re ? t h a t m i g h t – c a n b e s h a r e d
p r o vi d e d

somebody

comes

and

cl e a n s

s p e a k e r.
A D V M A S U K U S C : Ye s.
Page 3 of 294

up

after

every

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

So – but I am quite happy that for – for

n o w u n t i l w e k n o w w h a t t h e s o u r c e o f t h a t a d vi c e i s, I a m
q u i t e h a p p y t h a t w e – y o u d o w h a t y o u a r e c o m f o rt a b l e w i t h .
S o I w i l l a l l o w t h a t w e d o w h a t w e a r e c o m f o rt a b l e w i t h a n d
t h a t t h e r e f o r e i f [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 2 : 5 3 ] m o r e c o m f o rt a b l e t o
a d d r e s s m e f r o m t h e p o si t i o n w h e re t h e y a r e I w i l l – I w i l l
allow

that

and

arrangements

will

be

made

to

try

and

e st a b l i sh t h i s a d vi c e t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n t a l ki n g a b o u t .
A D V M A S U K U S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f y o u a r e co m f o rt a b l e t h e r e ?

J a o ka y

a l ri g h t .
A D V M A S U K U S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I w a s t o l d – I w a s t o l d t h a t i n l a st w e e k o r

t h e w e e k b e f o r e I c a n n o t re m e m b e r – l a st w e e k I t h i n k t h a t
t h e a d vi c e w a s t h a t w e co u l d t a k e o ff o u r m a s k s w h i l st
s p e a k e r.

M r Va s s a n t o l d u s t h a t s o I w a n t e d t o k n o w t h e

s o u r c e o f t h a t a d v i c e a n d h e t o l d m e a n d I t h i n k y o u a r e ri g h t
f ro m D o ct o r? t h a t h e s a i d i t c o m e s f r o m t h e Wo rl d H e a l t h
Organization.
20

S o – a l t h o u g h I a m c o m f o rt a b l e w i t h t h a t

s o u r c e . M o st o f t h e t i m e I k e p t m y – m y m a s k e x c e p t w h e n I
a m s p e a ki n g . S o I a m j u st s h a ri n g t h a t i n f o rm a t i o n .
A D V M A S U K U S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i rp e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: With you.
ADV MASUKU SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Chair this is the

a p p l i ca t i o n t h a t w a s b r o u g h t b y Mr F u zi l e t o c ro s s - e x a m i n e
Page 4 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
M r D e s Va n R o o y e n .

J u st b y w a y o f s o m e b a c kg r o u n d M r

F u zi l e h a d i n f a c t h a d i n a w i t n e s s w h o h a d t e st i f i e d a n d
i m p l i c a t e d M r Va n R o o y e n i n r e s p e ct o f Te rm s o f R e f e r e n c e
1 . 8 o f t h e C o m m i s si o n ’s Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e . I n re s p o n se M r
Va n R o o y e n b r o u g h t a n a p p l i ca t i o n f o r L e a v e t o C r o s s e x a m i n e M r F u zi l e . T h a t a p p l i ca t i o n w a s i n f a ct g r a n t e d a n d
p u r s u a n t t o t h a t Mr Va n – M r F u zi l e i n t u r n b r o u g h t a n
A p p l i c a t i o n f o r L e a ve t o C r o s s -e x a m i n e M r Va n R o o y e n .
That
10

is

the

application

b e f o re

you.

Mr

–

we

as

the

c o m m i s si o n m a y y o u h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o s a y o n c e w e h a v e
h e a r d t h e s u b m i s si o n s t h a t h a ve b e e n m a d e o n b e h a l f o f t h e
– o f t h e a p p l i c a n t Mr F u z i l e i n t h i s m a t t e r b u t f o r p r e s e n t
p u r p o s e s w e w o u l d a s k t h a t M r Va n – M r F u zi l e ’s – M r
F u zi l e ’s r e p r e s e n t a t i v e t o a d d r e s s y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s C o u n s e l f o r M r F u zi l e .
ADV MASUKU SC:

A n d i f I c o u l d b e s o b o l d M r C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y.
ADV

MASUKU

SC:

They

have

prepared

a

bundle

of

a u t h o ri t i e s t h a t h a s b e e n r e l i e d o r w i l l b e r e l i e d u p o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MASUKU SC:

B u t I t h i n k b y t h e C o u n se l f o r M r F u zi l e

if I could beg leave to hand this up?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Counsel for Mr Fuzile.
ADV HASSIM:

M a y i t p l e a se t h e C h a i r.

F u zi l e t o g e t h e r w i t h m y c o l l e a g u e M s R a j a .
Page 5 of 294

I appear for Mr

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

If I may let me hear who appears for Mr

Va n R o o y e n f o r t h e r e c o rd b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d .
ADV MASUKU:

To g e t h e r w i t h M r M a t h i p a I a p p e a r f o r M r

Va n R o o y e n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV

MASUKU:

Chair

Mr

Mathipa

will

address

the

c o m m i s si o n o n t h e – o n M r Va n R o o y e n ’s su b m i s si o n s.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you – thank you. That is Mr Masuku
f o r t h e r e c o rd . C o u n s e l f o r M r F u zi l e .
10

A D V H A S S I M : T h a n k yo u C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e j u st i n d i c a t e m y p r i m a f a ci e vi e w s o
t h a t y o u a d d re s s i t h e a d o n .

On the face of it it does seem

t o m e t h a t M r Va n R o o ye n ’s p o i n t t h a t h e ca n o n l y b e
g r a n t e d L e a ve t o A p p e a l i f y o u a re a n i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n
a p p e a r s t o b e g o o d i n t e r m s o f t h e r u l e s. A n d a s I – a s I s e e
i f s u b j e ct t o a rg u m e n t i t se e m s t o m e t h a t t h e r e f e re n c e i n
the

ru l e s

to

an

implicated

implicated

in

terms

of

the

person
Te r m s

m u st
of

be

a

R e f e re n c e

person
of

the

C o m m i s si o n . S o i n o t h e r w o r d s, s o m e b o d y w h o i s i m p l i c a t e d
20

i n t e rm s o f a ct i vi t i e s w h i c h f a l l w i t h i n t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e
of the Commission.

I t se e m s t o m e t h a t i t m i g h t n o t h a ve

been intended to mean somebody who – who says you are
not being truthful about something that you have said. Now I
m a y h a ve m i s s e d s o m e t h i n g t h a t I d i d n o t se e a n yt h i n g i n M r
Va n R o o y e n ’s a ff i d a vi t w h i c h i m p l i c a t e s o r c a n b e s a i d t o
Page 6 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
i m p l i c a t e M r F u zi l e i n a n y o f t h e a ct i vi t i e s t h a t w o u l d f a l l
w i t h i n t h e Te rm s o f R e f e r e n c e o f t h e C o m m i s si o n .

It seems

t o m e t h a t w h a t M r F u zi l e c o m p l a i n s a b o u t i s si m p l y t h a t M r
Va n R o o y e n d e n i e s h i s v e r si o n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d f r o m
t h a t p o i n t o f vi e w m a y b e M r F u z i l e s a y s b y i m p l i c a t i o n yo u
s a yi n g I a m – I w a s u n t r u t h f u l t o t h e c o m m i s si o n . Yo u m i g h t
b e a b l e t o a l e rt m e t o s o m e t h i n g i n t h e p a p e r s t h a t I m i g h t
n o t h a ve p i c k e d u p b u t t h a t i s m y p ri m a f a ci e vi e w a n d – b u t
I a m q u i t e h a p p y t o h e a r y o u r s u b m i s si o n s.
10

ADV HASSIM:

T h a n k – t h a n k y o u C h a i r.

st a rt b y s a yi n g t h a t t h e r e a r e t h r e e i s s u e s.

Perhaps let me
We u n d e r st a n d

t h e s u b m i s si o n s o f M r Va n R o o y e n i n t h i s r e g a r d a n d a s
s u m m a ri se d b y t h e C h a i r a m o m e n t a g o . We a re o f t h e vi e w
t h a t t h e r u l e s a n d r e g u l a t i o n s o f t h i s c o m m i s si o n a r e i n
re l a t i o n t o a p p l i c a t i o n s s u c h a s t h i s a r e b ro a d e r t h a n j u st i n
re l a t i o n t o a n i m p l i c a t e d w i t n e s s. S o I w o u l d l i ke t o a d d re s s
t h e C h a i r o n t w o t h i n g s w h e t h e r o r n o t M r F u zi l e i s a n
i m p l i c a t e d w i t n e s s w h i c h w e h a v e i n d i c a t e d i n t h e re p l yi n g
a ff i d a vi t w e l o n g e r p e r si st w i t h t h a t l e g t h a t h e w a s a n
20

implicated witness and I will explain how that came about.
A n d t h e se c o n d i s t h a t i t n e e d n o t m a t t e r f o r t h e p u r p o se s o f
o u r a p p l i c a t i o n b u t h e i s n o t a n i m p l i c a t e d w i t n e s s. B e c a u s e
t h e r u l e s a n d t h e re g u l a t i o n a re b r o a d e n o u g h t o e n c o m p a s s
the discretion of this Chair to grant the application that is
s o u g h t b y M r F u zi l e .
Page 7 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HASSIM:

S o [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 0 : 0 1 ] h o w I w i l l a d d r e s s

t h e q u e st i o n t h a t y o u h a v e s p e ci f i c a l l y p u t t o m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I s e e t h a t t h e y d i d n o t b ri n g m y f i l e s

w i t h t h e r u l e s a n d t h e r e g u l a t i o n s h e r e . Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV HASSIM:

C h a i r [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 0 : 2 3 ] t o st e p b a c k w e –

y o u – I ? a r g u m e n t w i t h o u t t h i s a d d r e s s s o a t s e r vi c e b e f o re
y o u I d o n o t i n t e n d t o g o t h r o u g h t h e l i st o f a r g u m e n t s. W h a t
is…
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u d o t h a t ca n I c h e c k w i t h y o u

how much time would be enough for your address and I do
s o b e c a u s e i t i s i m p o rt a n t t h a t w e – w e d o n o t t a ke t o o l o n g
b u t a t t h e sa m e t i m e w e m u st d o j u st i ce t o e a c h o n e w h o
wishes to address me. Fifteen minutes?
A D V H A S S I M : T h a t w i l l b e a p p ro p ri a t e C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t .
A D V H A S S I M : T h a n k yo u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV HASSIM:
20

S o C h a i r p ro p o s e n o t t o g o t h r o u g h t h e

heads of argument.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t i s f i n e .
ADV HASSIM:

T h i s w ri t t e n s u b m i s si o n t h a t – a n d t h e y a re

before you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H A S SI M :

M y p r o p o sa l w a s t o a d d r e s s y o u o n t h e
Page 8 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
f o l l o w i n g t a l k s a n d I m a n a g e d t o ch a n g e t h i s a r o u n d i f i t
w o u l d su i t t h e C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H A S S I M : T h e f i r st i s o n t h e i s s u e o f c o n d o n a t i o n t o t h e
e xt e n t t h a t yo u w i s h t o m e o n t h a t – t o g e t t h a t o u t o f t h e
w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no I do not wish to hear you on

condonation.
ADV HASSIM:
10

some time.

Thank you Chair then I will – that will save

T h e s e c o n d t o p i c t h e n w h i c h w i l l n o w b e co m e

t h e f i r st t o p i c i s w h a t i t i s e xa ct l y t h a t M r F u zi l e i s s e e ki n g
a n d n o t s e e ki n g . Q u i t e i m p o rt a n t l y I t h i n k i t i s n e c e s s a r y f o r
u s t o c h a n g e b y t h e n a r r o w re q u e st s t h a t i s i n f a ct b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s si o n .

The second topic would then be the legal

p r i n ci p l e s u p o n w h i c h M r F u zi l e b a s e s h i s a p p l i c a t i o n .
third

is

that

the

re q u e st

that

Mr

F u zi l e

makes

The

is

not

u n p r e c e d e n t e d i n t h e c o m m i s si o n s o f i n q u i r y a n d t h e f i n a l
t o p i c w i l l b e t h a t i t i s i n t h e b e st i n t e r e st o f t h e f u n ct i o n o f
t h e c o m m i s si o n t o g r a n t t h e a p p l i c a t i o n .
20

O n t h e f i r st t o p i c i f I m a y s a y t h e f o l l o w i n g :

When

t h e a p p l i c a t i o n w a s f i r st b r o u g h t a n d C h a i r w i l l r e c a l l t h a t
w a s b r o u g h t o n t h e 2 M a r ch 2 0 1 8 9 m o r e t h a n a y e a r a g o . A t
t h a t [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 2 : 3 6 ] t i m e M r F u zi l e h a d b e e n [ i n d i st i n ct
0 0 : 1 2 : 3 6 ] r e a d a st a t e m e n t b y M r Va n R o o y e n .

It – it

s e e m e d f r o m t h e u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h e r u l e s a n d f ro m t h e
Page 9 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
i n i t i a l r e a d i n g o f t h e st a t e m e n t t h a t i t m a y b e t h a t M r F u zi l e
i s i m p l i c a t e d a n d s o t h e a p p l i c a t i o n w a s p a rt l y b a se d o n t h e
ru l e s a s t h e y a p p l y t o a n i m p l i c a t e d w i t n e s s i n cl u d i n g t h a t i t
n e e d e d t o b e f i l e d w i t h i n a c e rt a i n p e ri o d o f t i m e i f y o u w i s h
t o m a k e r e p re s e n t a t i o n s a s a n i m p l i ca t e d w i t n e s s .

But it

w a s n o t l i m i t e d t o t h a t b a si s.
T h e r u l e s t h a t w e r e ci t e d i n t h e i n i t i a l a p p l i c a t i o n
went

beyond

that

to

the

ri g h t s

of

witnesses

to

legal

re p r e s e n t a t i o n i n re g u l a t i o n 8 a n d i n t h e r u l e s t h a t p r o vi d e
10

f o r l e g a l r e p re s e n t a t i o n a n d t h e r u l e ’s d i s cr e t i o n t h a t re si d e s
w i t h i n t h e C h a i rp e r so n o f t h e c o m m i s si o n .
S o u si n g t h a t s e c o n d – t h a t se c o n d a s p e ct t h a t w e
w i l l st o p t h e a p p l i c a t i o n i t i s n o t o n t h e b a si s t h a t M r Fu z i l e
is an implicated witness as understood and as has been the
p r a ct i c e o f t h i s c o m m i s si o n t h a t i s w h y w e h a d l e a r n t e v e n
m o r e o v e r t h e l a st ye a r e x a ct l y h o w t h e p ro c e d u re w o r k s a n d
w e a r e n o t r e l yi n g o n t h a t p r o vi si o n t h a t M r Fu z i l e i s a n
i m p l i c a t e d w i t n e s s. We a g r e e t h a t h e i s n o t .
S o i t i s b e t t e r f o r m e t o st r e s s t h e n w h a t i t i s t h a t

20

m a k e s t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n a n d w h a t i t i s t h at M r F u zi l e i s n o t
s e e ki n g t o a s s u r e t h e C h a i r o f a n y c o n c e r n s y o u m a y h a ve
with

regard

to

the

rules

but

also

procedure

and

the

p r a ct i c a l i t i e s.
T h e f i r st t h i n g i s h e i s n o t s e e ki n g t o b e c o m e a n
o n g o i n g p a rt i ci p a n t i n t h i s p r o c e e d i n g s.
Page 10 of 294

I am aware that

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
t h e r e h a v e b e e n a p p l i ca t i o n s b e f o r e t h e C h a i r i n p r e vi o u s
m o n t h s a n d y e a r s i n t h e c o m m i s s i o n f o r [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 4 : 3 2 ]
i n t h e p r o ce e d i n g s. T h a t i s n o t w h a t M r F u zi l e s e e k s.
H e h a s co m e t o t h e co m m i s si o n a n d t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n
i s b a s e d i n t e r m s o f p a r a g r a p h 1 . 8 o f t h e Te rm s o f R e f e r e n c e
of this Commission.

That is what brought Mr Fuzile here.

He

p a rt i ci p a n t

was

a

willing

c o m m i s si o n .

in

o rd e r

to

a s s i st

the

H i s n e e d t o re q u e st p r o vi d e t h e e vi d e n ce

b e ca u s e h e w o u l d b e D i r e ct o r G e n e r a l o f N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y
10

at the time of the heads that are covered in paragraph 1.8
a n d h e h a d t h e m o st i n t e r a ct i o n w i t h M r Va n R o o y e n a t t h e
time.

H e i s m o st f a m i l i a r a l s o w i t h t h e p ro c e d u re s a n d

p r a ct i c e s o f a p p o i n t m e n t s w i t h i n N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
S o p a i n t t h a t o n e o n – o f Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e s a ve r y
p e cu l i a r a n d s p e ci f i c a n d p a rt i c u l a r p a rt o f t h e Te r m s o f
R e f e r e n c e w h i c h d i st i n g u i s h e s i t f r o m t h e r e st o f t h e Te r m s
o f R e f e r e n ce .
[ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 5 : 2 7 ] t o s u b m i t t h a t h e i s n o t s e e ki n g
a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o c ro s s - e x a m i n e a w i t n e s s o n a n y i s s u e s t h a t
20

a r e n o t w i t h i n h i s o w n d i r e ct p e r s o n a l kn o w l e d g e .

Then

i n c u r ri n g t o w h a t o c c u r r e d o n t h o s e f e w d a y s i n q u e st i o n
D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 i s v e r y s e ri o u s i n d e e d . A s i t s e e m s n o t j u st
b e ca u s e

it

implicates

Mr

Va n

R o o ye n

but

because

the

e vi d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n l e d b e f o re t h i s i m p o rt a n t c o m m i s si o n
and

h a s b e e n t o d e m o n st r a t e t h a t a ? t o p o si t i o n s o f
Page 11 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
i n f l u e n c e i n [ i n d i s t i n ct 0 0 : 1 5 : 5 9 ] w e r e p a rt o f t h e m o d u s o f
st a t e ’s c a p t u r e .

So any witnesses on behalf of National

Tr e a s u r y h a v e s p o ke n a b o u t Tr e a s u r y b e i n g t h e l a st b a l l
w a l k a g a i n st t h e c re e p i n g a c q u i si t i o n o f t h e l e ve l s o f p o w e r
f o r c o rr u p t e n d s.
The
t e st i m o n y

st a t e m e n t
before

p ro v i d e d

this

that

c o m m i s si o n

Mr

does

F u zi l e
not

and

the

involve

him

p e r s o n a l l y i n t h e p e ri o d s – re a l l y a t t h e e n d o f p e ri o d u n d e r
[ i n d i st i n ct
10

00:16:28]

personal

but

also

not
it

p e r so n a l l y

involves

–

National

not

solely

in

his

Tr e a s u r y

as

an

i n st i t u t i o n .
T h i s M r F u z i l e a n d t h e o t h e r Tr e a s u r y o ff i ci a l s w h o
h a ve

t e st i f i e d

b e ca u s e

of

p a rt i c u l a rl y

h a v e i n v e st e d

the

i m p o rt a n ce

paragraph

1.8.

h e a vi l y i n t h i s c o m m i s si o n
of

the
And

Te rm s
to

of

press

Reference
upon

the

c o m m i s si o n t h e s i g n i f i c a n c e o f t h o s e a l l e g a t i o n s o f c a p t u r e
i n r e l a t i o n t o Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e i m p l i c a t i o n s w i t h t h o s e – i f
t h o se a t t e m p t s h a d b e e n s u c ce s s f u l w h a t t h e i m p l i c a t i o n s
w o u l d h a v e b e e n s p e ci f i c a l l y i n r e l a t i o n t o Tr e a s u r y a n d – o r
20

? i f t h e t h r e a t s w e re t o a r i se a g a i n .
M r F u z i l e h a s m a d e a s e p a r a t e st a t e m e n t a b o u t
b r o a d e r co n c e rn s o f t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e t h a t a r e – t h a t
m a k e u p t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e o f t h e C o m m i s si o n b u t h e
d o e s n o t s e e k t o p a rt i ci p a t e i n t h o se a s p e ct s u n l e s s o f
c o u r s e h e i s ca l l e d u p o n t o d o s o b y t h e c o m m i s si o n .
Page 12 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
I t i s m e r e l y i n r e s p e ct o f t h e l i m i t e d n a rr o w i s s u e o f
p a r a g ra p h 1 . 8 a n d t h e e v e n t s o f t h o se f o u r d a y s t h a t h e
s e e k s l e a ve t o p u t q u e st i o n s t o M r Va n R o o y e n a n d t o d o s o
a s b ri e f l y a s p o s s i b l e .

And I will explain a bit more on that

in a moment.
H e i s a l s o v e r y i m p o rt a n t l y n o t s e e ki n g t o [ i n d i st i n c t
0 0 : 1 7 : 4 9 ] t h e r e a l e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s.

H e i s s e e ki n g t o

s u p p l e m e n t t h e r o l e o f t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s.

We a p p re c i a t e

t h e i m p o rt a n ce o f t h e st r e a m l i n e d a p p r o a c h t o t h i s i n q u i r y
10

a n d t h e r o l e o f t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s i s cr u ci a l i n f a c i l i t a t i n g
t h a t a p p ro a c h .

He is however concerned that there may be

a s p e ct s e v e n i f o n e o r t w o t h a t m a y n o t e l i ci t a l l t h e
n e ce s s a r y i n f o rm a t i o n a n d n u a n c e s t h a t t h e c o m m i s si o n
s h o u l d b e a l l o w e d t o w i t h o u t h i s a b i l i t y t o p u t q u e st i o n s.
The only reason for this is that he is the one person
w i t h t h e m o st a d h o c k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t t o o k p l a c e .

He has

n o t p r e vi o u sl y c o n s u l t e d a t l e n g t h w i t h t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s
o f t h i s co m m i s si o n e ve n b e f o r e h i s t e st i m o n y i n N o v e m b e r
2018.
20

His only consulted personally with his own legal

re p r e s e n t a t i v e s i n t h e p r e se n t a t i o n o f h i s e vi d e n c e .
F o u rt h Mr F u z i l e i s a l so c o n c e r n e d t o p r o t e ct h i s o w n
i n t e g ri t y.
allegations

H e h a s r e f e rr e d i n h i s re p l y i n g a ff i d a vi t t o t h e
of

Mr

Va n

R o o ye n

has

made

a g a i n st

him

i n cl u d i n g h i m a n d o t h e r Tr e a s u r y o ff i ci a l s I m i g h t a d d –
i n cl u d i n g r e f e r ri n g t o h i m a s a “ h o st i l e c e l l ”.
Page 13 of 294

It is not the

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
re s p o n si b i l i t y o f t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s t o p r o t e ct h i s ri g h t s. I t
i s o n l y t h e r e s p o n si b i l i t y o f t h e e v i d e n ce l e a d e r s t o f i n d t h e
t ru t h .
H e t h e r e f o r e w i s h e s t o b e a ff o r d e d t h e o p p o rt u n i t y f o r
h i s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i ve s t o p r o t e ct h i s ri g h t s s h o u l d t h e
n e e d a ri se . A n d t h a t i s f i r st a n d i t i s o n l y i f t h e n e e d a ri s e s.
I f a t t h e e n d o f M r Va n R o o ye n ’s e v i d e n c e a n d a t t h e
c o n cl u si o n o f t h e q u e st i o n s b y t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s t h e r e i s
n o n e e d t o a s k a q u e st i o n t o c o rr e ct t h e r e c o rd t h e n h e w i l l
10

n o t i n s e rt h i s ri g h t t o d o s o .
W h i c h b ri n g s m e t o t h e f i n a l p a g e .

Is what it is then

that he does seek because he does not wish to delay the
c o m m i s si o n i n i t s w o r k ?

A l l h e r e q u e st s i s t o h a ve a

p l a c e h o l d e r i f yo u w i l l i n o r d e r t o a d d re s s i s s u e s o f i m p o rt
t h a t w e re n o t e l i ci t e d o r t o c o r re ct i s s u e s f o r t h e p u rp o s e s o f
t h e re c o r d i n s o f a r a s t h e [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 0 : 0 3 ] o r t o h i s
knowledge

presents

–

Tr e a s u r y

and

Tr e a s u r y

as

an

i n st i t u t i o n d u r i n g t h a t p e ri o d i n t i m e .
I n o u r su b m i s si o n i t w o u l d b e a m o r e e ff i ci e n t m a n n e r
20

o f c o n d u ct i n g t h e e vi d e n c e i n r e l a t i o n t o p a ra g r a p h 1 . 8 t h e n
e i t h e r t o st a n d d o w n t o b e a b l e t o c o n su l t w i t h t h e e vi d e n ce
l e a d e r s t o p u t i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e e vi d e n ce l e a d e r s i n o r d e r
f o r t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s t o t h e n co n v e y t h a t t o M r Va n
R o o y e n a n d t o t h e C h a i r a n d t o cl a r i f y a n y r e m a i ni n g – a n y
re m a i n i n g i s su e s t h a t a r e n o t c o v e r e d .
Page 14 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
I f y o u t h i n k t h a t i t i s m o r e e ff i c i e n t i f h i s l e g a l
re p r e s e n t a t i v e s g o o u t e v e n i f i t w e re f i f t e e n m i n u t e s i t
n e ce s s a r y t o p u t t h e f e w q u e st i o n s w h i c h r e m a i n a n d t o
e n su r e t h a t a l l t h e b a se s a r e c o v e r e d .
T h a t i s w h a t M r F u zi l e s e e k s.

Yo u g e t t h e b a si s o f

t h e f o l l o w i n g p ri n ci p l e s. T h e f i r st i n t e rm s o f t h e r e g u l a t i o n s
t h a t g o v e r n t h i s c o m m i s si o n a n d i n p a rt i c u l a r R e g u l a t i o n 6
w h i c h i s a n i n p e r s o n a p p e a ri n g b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n m a y
b e a s si st e d b y a n A d v o c a t e o r a n A t t o r n e y. R e g u l a t i o n 8 s u b
10

3 p r o vi d e s f u rt h e r t h a t a n y w i t n e s s a p p e a ri n g b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s si o n m a y b e cr o s s - e x a m i n e d b y a p e r s o n o n l y i f t h e
C h a i r p e r s o n p e rm i t s t h a t c r o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n s h o u l d h e d e e m
i t n e ce s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e st i n t e r e st o f t h e f u n ct i o n o f t h e
c o m m i s si o n .
I t i s M r F u zi l e ’s s u b m i s si o n t o t h e C h a i r t o d a y t h a t i t
w o u l d b e n e c e s s a r y a n d i t w a s i n t h e b e st i n t e r e st o f t h e
f u n ct i o n o f c o m m i s si o n .

He does not believe that he has a

ri g h t t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e h e i s s e e ki n g re l i e f o f t h e C h a i r t o d o
so on those bases.
20

Regulation

15

of

this

p r o vi d e s

that

it

is

c o m m i s si o n w h o m a y d e t e r m i n e i t s o w n p r o c e d u r e s.

the
It is

w h a t w e r e f e r t o a s t h e b ro a d d i s c re t i o n t h a t r e si d e s w i t h i n
the Chairperson.
And again in the Rules that an echo of what is
p r o vi d e d i n t h e R e g u l a t i o n s f o r e x a m p l e i n R u l e 3 . 7 w h i c h
Page 15 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
p r o vi d e s t h a t i n a c c o r d a n c e t o t h e R e g u l a t i o n 8 su b 3 t h e r e
i s n o t o cr o s s - e xa m i n e a w i t n e s s b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n b u t
the

Chairperson

may

permit

c ro s s - e x a m i n e

–

c ro s s -

e x a m i n a t i o n s h o u l d h e d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e st
i n t e r e st o f t h e w o r k o f t h e c o m m i s si o n t o d o s o .
Again Rule 7.2 echoes the regulations that a witness
m a y b e a s si st e d b y a l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e .
I n o u r h e a d s o f a rg u m e n t , w e h a v e re f e r r e d t o s o m e
c a s e l a w.
10

Staats

We h a v e re f e rr e d t o f o r e xa m p l e S t a t e v e r s u s

which

f u n ct i o n

as

sets
a

out

the

c o m m i s si o n

general
and

p ri n ci p l e s
procedures

about
before

the
a

c o m m i s si o n a n d t h e f a ct t h a t i t i s n o t b o u n d b y ru l e s o f
e vi d e n c e a n d p l e a d i n g s i n t h e sa m e w a y t h a t a c o u r t o f l a w
i s.

We h a ve r e f e rr e d t o t h e c a se o f P e r g a m o n P r e s s w h i c h

w a s ci t e d w i t h a p p r o v a l o f S C A a n d D u P r e e z a b o u t t h e
i m p o rt a n ce o f f l e x i b i l i t y o f t h e C o m m i s si o n s o f I n q u i r y w h e n
t h e y – w e l l w h e n t h e c o m m i s si o n s d e a l w i t h p ro c e d u r a l
a s p e ct s.
T h e f i r st l e t t e r w e re f e r t o i s a [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 3 : 1 9 ]
20

c a s e a n d t h a t s p e ci f i c a l l y a j u d g m e n t i n t h e H i g h C o u rt i n
w h i c h t h e H i g h C o u rt f o u n d a n d i t w a s – t h i s ca s e c o n c e r n e d
A m e r i ca o f C o m m i s si o n o f I n q u i r y a n d t h e ri g h t t o l e g a l
re p r e s e n t a t i o n i n a C o m m i s si o n o f I n q u i r y a n d i n f a c t t h e r e
w a s i m p o rt a n t f e e l b e t w e e n [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 3 : 3 6 ] a n d h e r e o f
c o u r s e i s t h a t t h a t i n v o l v e d t h e ri g h t t o l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n
Page 16 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a t t h e e x p e n s e o f t h e st a t e .
No it is not at all the issue here.
t h e ri g h t t o l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n .

Here it is merely

A n d t h e c o u rt f o u n d t h a t

S e ct i o n 3 4 o f t h e C o n st i t u t i o n a p p l i e s t o C o m m i s s i o n s o f
I n q u i r y.

J u st i ce N g u k a sa y s t h a t i n t h e co n t e xt o f t h a t

a p p l i ca t i o n i t i s o f m o r e c o n s e q u e n c e t h a t t h e co m m i s si o n i s
n o t a j u d i ci a l o r p a rt i n j u d i ci a l n a t u r e a n d t h a t i n e a c h
c o m m i s si o n r e g a r d sh o u l d b e h a d t o co n t e xt sp e ci f i c f a ct o r s.
A n d h e s e t o u t t h e f a ct o r s.
10

I will not take the Chair through

t h e i n t e r e st o f t i m e t h e y a r e c o n t a i n e d i n o u r h e a d s o f
a r g u m e n t s.

T h e p ri n ci p l e r e a l l y i s t h a t t h e i m p o rt a n ce o f

f l e xi b i l i t y, t h a t i t n e e d n o t m a t t e r, t h a t t h e c o m m i s si o n o f
i n q u i r y i s n o t o f a j u d i ci a l n a t u r e , t h a t t h e r e i s a ri g h t o f l e g a l
re p r e s e n t a t i o n a n d t h a t t h e f a ct o r s t h a t m a y a p p l y a r e s e t
out in the judgment.
T h a t ? o f r e p o rt s w a s i n d u e r e s p e ct C o n st i t u t i o n a l
C o u rt i n t h a t m a t t e r.
We s u b m i t t h a t t h a t ri g h t – t h a t S e ct i o n 3 4 ri g h t i n
the
20

c o n t e xt

of

the

C o m m i s si o n

of

Inquiry

for

it

to

be

m e a n i n g f u l i t w o u l d r e q u i r e t h a t a w i t n e s s i s a b l e t o e x e r c i se
his

ri g h t s

through

his

legal

representatives

where

a p p r o p ri a t e .
T h e p e n u l t i m a t e t o p i c t h e n I m u st a d d r e s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 5 : 0 6 ] I t h i n k yo u a r e l e f t
w i t h a b o u t t w o m i n u t e s o f t h e f i f t e e n m i n u t e s.
Page 17 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV HASSIM: I am going to…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H A S S I M : G o i n g t o s p e e d u p C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HASSIM:

T h e n e xt t o p i c i s t h a t t h e cr o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n

o f w i t n e s s e s b y w i t n e s s b y p a rt i ci p a n t s i n a n i n q u i r y i s n o t
unprecedented.
argument.
I n q u i r y.
10

A g a i n , t h e s e a r e se t o u t i n o u r h e a d s o f

I m a d e r e f e re n c e t o t h e Ma ri k a n a C o m m i s si o n o f
I d o n o t s u g g e st t h a t t h i s c o m m i s si o n o u g h t t o

re p l i c a t e t h e p r o c e d u r e s t h a t w e r e p r e s e n t i n t h e M a r i ka n a
C o m m i s si o n o f I n q u i r y b u t t h e i r p ri n ci p l e s t h a t e m e r g e d f r o m
t h e M a r i ka n a R e p o rt w h i c h w e h a v e g o t i n t h e h e a d s o f
argument

they

a re

i n st r u ct i v e

and

how

is

–

in

a

very

s u p p o rt i n g w a y I h a ve a l r e a d y s e t o u t i n [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 5 : 4 9 ]
a b o u t t h e f a ct t h a t t h e r e i s n o t a m yt h b e t w e e n t w o p e o p l e i n
t h e C o m m i s si o n o f I n q u i r y d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t t h e ri g h t i s
[ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 6 : 0 1 ] t h e ri g h t t o l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n .

I

m e a n t t o g i v e i t – t h e e xt r a ct s a r e i n t h e h e a d s o f a rg u m e n t .
We f e e l t h a t t h a t i t sh o u l d b e a l l o w e d i n t h i s c a s e i n
20

t h e i n t e r e st o f j u st i c e a n d i n t h e i n t e r e st o f t h e f u n ct i o n o f
t h e c o m m i s si o n . T h e [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 6 : 2 0 ] j u d g m e n t w h i c h i s
– t h i s i s a g a i n i t i s t h e – i n o rd e r t o g u a r d a g a i n st a n y e r r o r s
a n d t o p ro t e ct t h e i n t e g ri t y o f t h i s c o m m i s si o n w e r e f e r t o t h e
R S V O C o m m i s si o n C a s e a n d t h a t i s C o rr u p t i o n Wa t c h v e r su s
A r m s P r o cu r e m e n t a n d o t h e r s a n d t h e n I w o u l d l i ke t o d r a w
Page 18 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
t o t h e C h a i r ’s a t t e n t i o n i s p a r a g ra p h 5 3 i n p a rt i c u l a r w h i c h
s p e a k s a b o u t t h e re a l e vi d e n ce l e a d e r s. A n d I t h i n k t h a t t h a t
i s i m p o rt a n t b e c a u s e i t d o e s b e c o m e u n cl e a r a t ? w h a t t h e
ro l e o f e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s a r e i n cr o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n a n d n o t –
t h e r e i s a ri s k t h a t e vi d e n c e s h o u l d n o t b e s e e n a s b i a s e d o r
f a v o u ri n g o n e w i t n e s s o v e r a n o t h e r a n d t h a t c a n b e g u a r d e d
a g a i n st

by

a

[ i n d i st i n ct

00:27:05]

in

our

case

we

say

p a rt i c u l a rl y w i t h re g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 1 . 8 o f t h e Te r m s o f
Reference Mr Fuzile with his own allowed to cross-examine.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

We l l i n t h a t r e g a rd o n e m u st a l s o b e a r i n

m i n d I t h i n k i t i s t h e R u l e 3 . 2 w h i c h sa y s t h a t a n e v i d e n ce
l e a d e r i s e n t i t l e d t o a s k q u e st i o n s t o a w i t n e s s t h a t s e e k t o
e st a b l i sh t h e t r u t h – t h e t r u t h f u l n e s s o f t h e v e r s i o n t h a t t h e
w i t n e s s g i v e s.

O b vi o u sl y, t h a t m u st b e l o o ki n g a t d i ff e r e n t

v e r s i o n s w h e r e t h e r e i s – t h e re a r e d i ff e r e n t v e r si o n s f r o m
d i ff e r e n t w i t n e s s e s. S o o n e h a s g o t t o b e a r t h a t i n m i n d t h a t
w h a t e v e r t h e l i n e m a y b e b e t w e e n cr o s s - e xa m i n a t i o n a n d
q u e st i o n i n g a w i t n e s s w i t h a vi e w t o e st a b l i s h i n g t h e t ru t h o r
t h e t r u t h f u l n e s s o f h i s o r h e r ve r si o n o r t h e v e r si o n o f
20

a n o t h e r w i t n e s s t h e r e i s t h a t p a rt i c u l a r p o i n t b e i n g m a d e i n
t h e R u l e s.

S o I a m s a yi n g o n e h a s g o t t o f a ct o r t h a t i n t o

a c c o u n t . S o t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s s h o u l d n o t – s e e m s t o m e
b e a f r a i d t o a s k d i ff i c u l t q u e st i o n s t o a w i t n e s s j u st b e c a u s e
t h e y t h i n k t h e w i t n e s s o r s o m e p e o p l e o u t t h e r e a re g o i n g t o
a c c u se t h e m o f g o i n g a l o n g w i t h a c e rt a i n v e r si o n .
Page 19 of 294

Or

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
b e ca u s e

they

are

a g a i n st

c a t e g o ri e s o f w i t n e s se s.

a

certain

witness

or

c e rt a i n

T h e y m u st h a v e c o u ra g e .

They

m u st s e e k t h e t r u t h a n d t h e y m u st d o s o i n t h e b e st w a y t h a t
t h e r u l e s, t h e r e g u l a t i o n s a n d o u r s y st e m p e rm i t s. S o w h e r e
t h e l i n e m a y – i t m a y t h a t i t i s t h e s a m e t h i n g a s c r o s se x a m i n a t i o n I a m n o t s u re .

But whatever line may be

probably is a very thin line.
ADV HASSIM: Indeed.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o – s o I j u st – I w a s j u st s a yi n g i n t h e

c o n t e xt o f a l l o f t h a t o n e m u st b e a r t h a t i n m i n d , I t h i n k.
ADV HASSIM: Indeed. Indeed.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HASSIM:

I n d e e d , C h a i r a n d I a p p r e ci a t e t h e g u i d a n c e

t h a t yo u h a v e j u st p ro v i d e d o n t h a t p a rt i c u l a r r u l e . A n d i t i s
– i t i s c o rr e ct t h a t i t i s t h e r o l e o f t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s t o
find the truth and to not – not be afraid to go into lines of
q u e st i o n i n g t h a t a r e n e c e s s a r y i n o rd e r t o e l i ci t t h e t r u t h ,
o v e r t h e a s p e ct s o f e v i d e n c e t h a t i s n o t w i t h i n t h e e vi d e n ce
l e a d e r ’s a m b i t b e c a u se i t i s m o r e a b o u t p ro t e ct i n g t h e ri g h t s
20

o f a p a rt i cu l a r w i t n e s s t h a n i t i s a b o u t t h e p r a ct i c e t h a t a r e
b e i n g q u e st i o n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V H A S S I M : A n d i n t h i s c a s e , w h a t w e a re a l so s a yi n g i s
that

Mr

F u zi l e

is

a

peculiar

witness

on

this

p a rt i cu l a r

p a r a g ra p h . H e i s t h e m a n w i t h t h e m o st d i r e ct k n o w l e d g e o f
Page 20 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
w h a t t o o k p l a c e t h a t d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
A D V H A S SI M :

A n d h e w i s h e s t o a s si st t h e C o m m i s si o n .

It

i s n o t m e r e l y t o p r o t e ct h i s ri g h t s b u t h e a l s o w i s h e s t o
a s si st t h e C o m m i s si o n i n t h e e v e n t t h a t t h e r e a r e . . . l o o k, n o
n e e d t o l e a v e n o st o n e u n t u r n e d .

That that is what he

s e e k s. Fi n a l l y, w h e n . . . i n cl o si n g , C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV
10

H A S SI M :

I

would

say

that

the

g ra n t i n g

of

the

a p p l i ca t i o n w o u l d n o t a ff e ct , w i t h o u t c o m p ro m i si n g (? ) t h e
. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] o f t h e C o m m i s si o n ’s l e g a l t e a m .
intended

but

the

application

would

It is not

p re cl u d e

the

C o m m i s si o n ’s l e g a l t e a m f r o m q u e s t i o n i n g M r v a n R o o y e n .
As

I

su b m i t t e d

e a rl y,

no

re s p o n si b i l i t i e s o f t h e l e g a l t e a m .

intention

to

su p p l y

full

All that their intention of

t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n i s , i s f o r M r F u zi l e ’s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s t o
be

p r o vi d e d

with

an

o p p o rt u n i t y

to

supplement

the

q u e st i o n i n g w h e r e n e ce s s a ry.
T h i s m a y n o t b e n e c e s s a ry, i f a f t e r t h e C o m m i s si o n ’s
20

l e g a l t e a m h a s p u t q u e st i o n s t o M r v a n R o o y e n t h e n t h e r e i s
n o st o n e t h a t i s b e e n l e f t u n t u r n e d .
A n d w e s u b m i t t h a t i t i s i n t h e i n t e r e st o f f a i r n e s s t h a t
s u c h a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o b e a ff o r d e d e v e n i f i t m a y u l t i m a t e l y
n o t b e e x e r ci s e d . Th o s e a r e o u r s u b m i s si o n s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M r M a t h i p a ( ? ).
Page 21 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V M AT H I PA : C h a i r p e r s o n , t h i s a p p l i ca t i o n o f M r F u zi l e i s
made in terms of Rule point 3.3.6.

Th a t i s m u c h i s cl e a r

f ro m p a r a g r a p h 7 o f h i s f o u n d i n g a ff i d a vi t .
N o w, i t i s n o w c o m m o n c a u s e t h a t Mr F u z i l e i s n o t a n
implicated person.

S o t h a t i s s u e i s d o n e a n d d u st e d .

only

re m a i n s

person

that

i s,

if

he

is

not

a

The

legally

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] p e r s o n , t h e n i n t e r m s o f w h a t r u l e o f t h e
C o m m i s si o n i s t h e n m a ki n g t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n ?
I n t h e h e a d s o f a r g u m e n t s, m y l e a r n e d f ri e n d s. . . F u zi l e ’s
10

legal

r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s,

what

they

now

do

i s,

tell

this

C o m m i s si o n i n p a r a g r a p h 7 t h a t Mr F u zi l e i s n o l o n g e r
i n si st i n g ( ? ) w i t h h i s a p p l i c a t i o n i n t e r m s o f R u l e s 3 . 3 . 6 a n d
3.4.
They say he is coming before this Commission in terms
of Rule 8.3.

No, Regulation 8.3 of the Regulations of the

C o m m i s si o n , r e a d i n c o n j u n ct i o n w i t h R u l e 3 . 7 .
N o w, t h e o n l y p r o b l e m C h a i rp e r s o n i n t h i s i s su e .
f i r st

thing

is

an

application

is

The
made

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y.
A D V M AT H I PA : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Shall we agree that fifteen minutes will be

enough for you as well?
A D V M AT H I PA : Ye s, d e f i n i t e l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Page 22 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V M AT H I PA : I t m i g h t b e sh o rt e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M AT H I PA :

C h a i r p e r s o n , a l l o w m e t h e n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s si o n i n t e r m s o f t h e p a rt i c u l a r r u l e s o f t h e
C o m m i s si o n a n d t h e n i n h i s r e f e r e n c e t o R e g u l a t i o n 8 . 3 a n d
3 . 7 m e r e l y d e m o n st ra t e t h a t h e h a s a d i s c r e t i o n b u t n o w o n e
re a l i s e s t h a t i t s a p p l i c a t i o n i s u n a t t a i n a b l e ( ? ).
I n t h e h e a d s o f a rg u m e n t , t h e y n o w m a k e a U - t u r n .
They
10

s a y,

“ H ’ n -‘ n ,

we

are

not

making

that

application

a n ym o r e i n t e rm s o f t h a t r e g u l a t i o n . . . t h o se r u l e s.

We a re

n o w m a ki n g t h e a p p l i c a t i o n i n t e r m s o f R e g u l a t i o n 8 . 3 . ”
T h a t i s n o t a c ce p t a b l e , I w o u l d s u b m i t .

N o e vi d e n c e ,

a s s u m i n g i t w e r e a c c e p t a b l e , I s u g g e st w e l o o k a t R e g u l a t i o n
8.3.

M y su b m i s s i o n , f i r st a n d f o r e m o st , i s t h a t R e g u l a t i o n

8.3 is not an application regulation.
I t h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h m a ki n g a n a p p l i ca t i o n .

It has

n o t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] w h e r e t h e f o r a p p l i c a t i o n f o r l e a v e t o cr o s s examine, neither does it deal with the requirements which
s u c h p e r s o n m u st s a t i sf y.
20

There

a re

only

three

things

that

that

rule...

that

re g u l a t i o n d e a l s w i t h . T h e f i r st t h i n g i s. I t s a y s:
“A n y w i t n e s s a p p e a ri n g b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s si o n m a y
b e cr o s s -e x a m i n e ”.
T h e s e c o n d t h i n g i s:
“ C r o s s - e xa m i n a t i o n

will

only

Page 23 of 294

take

place

if

it

is

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
p e r m i t t e d b y t h e C h a i r p e r s o n ”.
A n d t h e t h i r d i s:
“ T h e C h a i r p e r so n m a y p e rm i t c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n i f h e
d e e m s i t n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e st i n t e r e st o f t h e
f u n ct i o n o f t h e C o m m i s si o n ”.
N o w i f w e o u g h t t o k n o w w h o c a n a p p l y, w h e n t h e y m u st
a p p l y, w h a t t h e r e q u i r e m e n t s t h e a p p l i ca t i o n m u st m e e t –
o n e n e e d s t o vi si t t h e R u l e s o f t h e C o m m i s si o n .
N o w t h e r u l e s a r e h e r e t o g o v e r n a n d . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] s a y
10

s o , ru l e s g o v e rn i n g t h e co n d u ct o f t h e p r o c e e d i n g s o f t h e
C o m m i s si o n . T h e re a r e n o r u l e s t h a t a re t h e r e t o b e i g n o r e d
a n d w h e t h e r y o u w a n t t o a n d g o t o t h e o t h e r p r o vi si o n s( ? ).
There are rules to be complied with.
T h e r e a r e i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e p u b l i c t h a t sa y s t o t h e
p u b l i c t h i s i s h o w t o a p p r o a c h t h e C o m m i s si o n .
p r o c e d u r e yo u n e e d t o f o l l o w.

This is the

T h i s i s t h e p e ri o d i n w h i c h

y o u m u st d o i t , a n d t h i s i s w h a t y o u m u st s a t i sf y i n yo u r
a p p l i ca t i o n t o b e c o n si d e r e d .
N o w w h a t m y l e a r n e d f ri e n d s t o d a y a r e s u g g e st i n g : “ N o ,
20

y o u c a n m a k e a n o t h e r (? ) a p p l i c a t i o n i n d e p e n d e n t w i t h t h e
ru l e s a n d m e r e l y a p p r o a c h t h e C o m m i s si o n i n t e r m s o f
R e g u l a t i o n 8 . 3 ”.
I submit that argument is not attainable.

It is attainable

i f Mr F u zi l e s e e s t h a t h e h a s n o t b e e n a b l e t o m a ke o u t h i s
a p p l i ca t i o n b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s si o n i n l i g h t o f t h e a n s w e ri n g
Page 24 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a ff i d a vi t .
There

are

only

two

options

available

to

him.

He

w i t h d r a w s t h e a p p l i c a t i o n o r h e a d m i t s( ? ) f o r t h e a p p l i c a t i o n
to be dismissed.
A n d t h e y a r e n o t d o i n g t h a t t o d a y.
p r o c e e d ( ? ) w i t h t h e a p p l i ca t i o n .

They want to

T h e i n t e r e st ( ? ) i s w i t h t h i s

a p p l i ca t i o n .
N o w, i f . . . o r t h e o t h e r t h i n g t h a t e m e r g e s t o d a y f o r t h e
f i r st
10

time

is

that

C o n st i t u t i o n R i g h t s.

now

Mr

Fuzile

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

of

the

H e i s s a yi n g t h a t t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

a p p e a r s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 o f t h e i r h e a d s.
T h e y s a y:
“ We s u b m i t t h a t t h e ri g h t t o a f a i r h e a ri n g i n S e ct i o n
3 4 o f t h e C o n st i t u t i o n , r e q u i r e s t h e C o m m i s si o n t o
. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] cr o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n o f M r va n R o o y e n b y
M r F u z i l e ’s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s i n t h e i n t e r e st o f
j u st i c e a n d i n t h e b e st i n t e r e st o f t h e f u n ct i o n o f t h e
C o m m i s si o n . ”
T h e t e r m s, t h e r e f o r e , i s w h e t h e r su c h cr o s s - e xa m i n a t i o n
20

i n t h e b e st i n t e r e st o f t h e C o m m i s si o n .

So there is a

c o n t r a d i ct i o n i n t h a t st a t e m e n t i n t h e f i r st p l a ce b e c a u s e i f i t
i s a r e q u i r e m e n t o f S e ct i o n 3 4 o f t h e C o n st i t u t i o n t h a t t h e
C o m m i s si o n m u st b e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] cr o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n o f M r
v a n R o o y e n b y M r F u zi l e t h e n w h y. . . . t h e n w h a t i s t h e
re q u i r e m e n t ?
Page 25 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
S o w h y a re t h e y s a yi n g t h e y h a v e g o t a d i s cr e t i o n ? I t i s
a c o n t ra d i ct i o n t h e r e b e ca u s e f o r s a yi n g t h e r e q u i r e m e n t o f
S e ct i o n 3 4 o f t h e C o n st i t u t i o n b u t i t m u st b e . . . i t m u st b e
p r o c e e d e d . . . h e m u st b e g i v e n p e r m i s si o n t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e .
So

their

requirements

(u n )f o u n d e d i n S e ct i o n 3 4 .

of

this

a p p l i ca t i o n

are

now

A g a i n , t h i s i s d i ff e r e n t f r o m t h e

f o u n d i n g a ff i d a vi t a n d t h e r e p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t o f M r F u z i l e .
N o w t h e r e i s a . . . w e re f e r i n p a r a g r a p h 3 4 , w e re f e r t o a
j u d g m e n t o f t h e C o n st i t u t i o n C o u rt o r i n t h e o n e i n P h u m e z a
10

M l u n g w a n a a n d O t h e r s v t h e R e p u b l i c o f S o u t h A f ri ca .
[ I n d i st i n ct ] 1 4 w h i c h s a y s:
“S e ct i o n 3 4 d e a l s w i t h d i s p u t e s t h a t ca n b e r e s o l v e d
b y m e a n s o f t h e l a w.

T h e C o m m i s si o n ’s f i n d i n g s a r e

n o t n e c e s s a r i l y t o b e cr e a t e d ( ? ) w i t h a r e s o l u t i o n o f
legal disputes by a common(?) law”.
B u t . . . a n d t h e n t h e f i r st t h i n g C h a i r p e r s o n h e r e i s, w h a t
is this dispute that Mr Fuzile has with Mr van Rooyen?

But

h e w a n t s t o s e e r e s u l t s e ve n b e f o r e h e o n l y c o m e s t o . . . h e
d r e a d e d ( ? ) w h e t h e r o r n o t S e ct i o n 2 4 a p p l i e s t o h i m .
20

T h e r e i s n o s u c h d i sp u t e .

H e h i m se l f s a y s i n h i s o w n

a ff i d a vi t :
“ W h e n I c a m e t o t h e C o m m i s si o n b e c a u se I w a s
s u b p o e n a e d t o c o m e a n d g i ve e vi d e n c e ”.
A n d h e sa y s h e re a d h i s st a t e m e n t i n 2 0 1 8 a n d t h e n
a g a i n , a n o t h e r st a t e m e n t i n 2 0 1 9 b u t h a s g i ve n o r a l e vi d e n ce
Page 26 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s si o n .
N o w d u ri n g a l l t h a t , h e t h e n sa y s:
”I h a v e ri g h t ( ? ) t o S e ct i o n 3 4 f o r a f a i r h e a ri n g s o
t h a t m y d i s p u t e c a n b e r e so l v e d ”.
I am not aware of any dispute and no case has been
m a d e b y a n y o f t h e p a p e r s f o r a n y d i s p u t e t h a t h e h a s. A n d
I will submit that that argument must be dismissed.
T h a t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t h e f i n a l a r g u m e n t C h a i r p e r s o n a n d
t h a t r e l a t e s t o . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] b e c a u s e i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t i t
10

w a s a c ce p t e d t h a t M r F u zi l e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] r e q u i r e m e n t s o f
Regulation 3.3.6.
That... I do not want to labour an argument on that
a s p e ct

b e ca u s e

it

is

cl e a r

that

it

is

a c ce p t e d .

The

i n t e r e st i n g t h i n g i s t h a t h e h a s f i r s t m a d e t h e a p p l i c a t i o n i n
terms of Rule 3.7.
N o w, R u l e 3 . 7 d o e s n o t st a n d a l o n e . I t i s p a rt a s a s u b re g u l a t i o n , a s u b - ru l e o f R u l e 3 . T h a t i s b e i n g i g n o r e d .
N o w R u l e 3 t e l l s u s w h o c a n a p p l y, w h o m u st r e n d e r( ? )
re p l y ( ? ), w h a t t h e r e q u i re m e n t s a re , a n d t h e n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
20

w h a t ki n d o f l e a v e t h e y c a n s e e k f ro m t h e C o m m i s si o n , t o
g i v e e v i d e n c e , t o c ro s s - e x a m i n e a n d t o d o a l l t h a t .
S o t h e r e i s n o w a y . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

I can look at Rule 3.7,

i n d i c a t i n g ( ? ) t h a t R u l e 3 . T h e r e i s n o w a y t h a t y o u c a n ca r v e
i s o u t o f t h e r u l e s a n d t h e n sa y i t i s a n i n v a l i d i n t h e s e ct i o n
i n w h i c h a p p l y.
Page 27 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
I n a n y ca s e , a l l t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] i s w h a t t h e ri g h t t o
c ro s s - e x a m i n e . . . n o o n e h a s t h e ri g h t t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e i f h e
f a i l s t o a s k t h e p e r m i s si o n .

T h a t i s b a si c a l l y t h e c o n t e n t .

And it refers back to the Regulation 3.3.
S o C h a i r p e r s o n , I s u b m i t t h a t t h i s a p p l i ca t i o n w h i c h i n
your

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] ,

is

an

abuse

of

the

p ro c e s s

of

the

C o m m i s si o n . I t i s a d e l a y . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] o f t h e C o m m i s si o n .
H o w c a n M r F u zi l e c o m e t o t h i s C o m m i s si o n a f t e r h a v e

10

b e e n g i vi n g a c h a n ce t w i c e ?

A f t e r g i v e n w ri t t e n st a t e m e n t ,

oral

he

e vi d e n c e .

How

can

then

come

before

the

C o m m i s si o n a n d s a y, “I n o l o n g e r a p p l y t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e t h e
i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n ”?
W h a t i n t e r e st d o e s h e h a s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t h a t o f b e i n g a
w i t n e s s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] i n f o r m a t i o n .
re p r e s e n t a t i v e

there

that

they

We h e a r f r o m t h e l e g a l
did

not

have

e x t e n si ve

c o n su l t a t i o n s w i t h h i m .
Therefore,

the

o t h e r s. . .

it

looks

like

he

r e se r v e s

i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t h e d o e s n o t g i v e t h e C o m m i s si o n a n d t h e n
. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] h i s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s.
20

No, that cannot be

accepted.
I f h e h a s a n y m o r e i n f o rm a t i o n t o g i v e , h e m u st c o m e t o
t h e C o m m i s si o n a n d g i v e t h e C o m m i s si o n .

S o . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

m a d e C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n i s a t b e st t o b e
c o n ce i ve d a n d a t w o r st a n a b u si v e o f t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e
C o m m i s si o n .
Page 28 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u M r M a t h i p a .

M r H u l l e y, y o u

m i g h t h a v e so m e t h i n g t o s a y. I p r o p o se t o g i v e yo u n o m o re
t h a n f i v e m i n u t e s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you Mr Chairman.

C a n I f i r st

a d d r e s s t h e q u e st i o n t h a t y o u a s k e d m e a b o u t t h e u s e o f t h e
m i c o f t h i s p o d i u m Mr C h a i r?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

I h a v e j u st b e e n p r o vi d e d w i t h a p a rt o f

t h e p r o t o c o l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

. . . o f t h e C o m m i s si o n w h i c h h a s b e e n

p r e p a re d b y t h e s e cr e t a r y a n d i t s a y s t h a t :
“P ro v i si o n

of

a

separate

mic

for

the

legal

re p r e s e n t a t i v e s o f t h e w i t n e s s e s/ i m p l i ca t e d p e r so n
m u st b e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] ”.
S o i t i s i n t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: That has not been approved by me.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I se e . T h a t i s a l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t h a s n o t b e e n a p p r o v e d b y m e , y e s.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s, I t h i n k o n t h a t b a si s t h a t I w a s

t o l d ( ? ).
CHAIRPERSON: No.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I s. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s n o t a p p r o v e d t h a t . . . Ye s ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

M r C h a i r p e r s o n , j u st v e r y b ri e f l y i n s o f a r
Page 29 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a s t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n i s co n c e rn e d t h a t w i l l st re n g t h e n t h e
a n s w e r.
the

I w a s t r yi n g t o l i st e n t o s e e w h a t w a s t h e b a si s o f

application

or

the

application

has

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e s e co n d . O n e s e c o n d , M r H u l l e y. T h e

lighting is not as good as it should be.

I do not know

w h e t h e r i t i s b e c a u s e o f t h i s l i g h t t h a t I . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A h , C h a i r p e r s o n , I c a n s e e m y s e l f ( ? ).

10

CHAIRPERSON:

[ l a u g h s]

t r y a n d i m p ro v e

t h e l i g h t i n g i f p o s si b l e .

We l l , I t h i n k t h e t e c h n i c i a n s w i l l
O k a y,

let us

continue.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k yo u , M r C h a i r. T h e . . . a t t h e e n d o f
t h e d a y, t h e a p p l i c a t i o n , i t a p p e a r s, m i g h t h a v e b e e n e v o l v e d
o v e r t h e p a s si n g o f t i m e b e t w e e n t h e d r a f t i n g o f t h e . . . t h e
papers and of course the argument that has now been
presented.
We w o u l d sa y t h a t o n t h e b a si s t h a t t h e a p p l i c a t i o n h a s
been

brought

and

is

now

presented

before

you

Mr

C h a i r p e r s o n , t h a t w e w o u l d n o t . . . w e w o u l d n o t su p p o rt t h e
20

a p p l i ca t i o n .
A s I u n d e r st a n d i t , t h e a p p l i c a t i o n h a s b e e n d i vi d e d t o
re a l l y

an

i n t e g ri t y,

argument
c e rt a i n l y

about
insofar

the
as

p ro t e ct i o n
the

of

e vi d e n c e

Mr

F u zi l e ’s

leaders

are

c o n ce r n e d .
T h e i r p ri m a r y co n c e r n m u st b e t o a s c e rt a i n t h r o u g h t h e
Page 30 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
q u e st i o n i n g w h e r e t h e t r u t h l i e s i n t h e v e r si o n s t h a t h a v e
been given.
A n d o n e w o u l d p r e s u m e t h a t i n t h a t p r o ce s s t h a t i t w i l l
b e i n cl u d e d o f a p a rt i c u l a r w i t n e s s w h o h a p p e n s t o b e t e l l i n g
t h e t r u t h , w o u l d b e p r o t e ct e d i n t h a t p r o c e s s.
And

insofar

whether the

as

there

application

has

been

ought to

be

an

argument

b ro u g h t

as it

about
was

i n i t i a l l y, i n t e rm s o f R u l e 3 o r a l t e r n a t i v e l y n o w, a s i t h a s
b e e n p re s e n t e d t o y o u , M r C h a i r p e r s o n i n t e r m s o f ru l e . . .
10

s o r r y, i n t e rm s o f R e g u l a t i o n 8 . 3 .
We w o u l d t h i n k t h a t i s o f n o . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] a s l o n g a s a
p a rt y h a s n o t b e e n p r e j u d i c e d b y t h a t a n d a s l o n g a s t h e
re q u i r e m e n t s t h a t h a ve b e e n . . . t h e r e q u i re m e n t s f o r t h e
p a rt i c u l a r r u l e o r re g u l a t i o n , a s t h e c a se m a y b e , h a d b e e n
s a t i sf i e d .
T h e r e w o u l d b e n o r e a s o n w h y a n a p p l i ca t i o n w h i c h h a s
b e e n p u r p o rt t o h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t i n t e r m s o f R u l e 3 a n d
t h e n l a t e r o n i s b ro u g h t i n t e rm s o f R e g u l a t i o n 8 . 3 , s h o u l d
n o t b e h e a r d u n d e r 8 . 3 p ro vi d e d , a s I h a v e s a i d , t h a t t h e r e

20

has been no unfairness that has been brought to bear upon
t h e o t h e r p a rt y.
We ca n se e t h e u n f a i r n e s s i n t h e p re s e n t ci r c u m st a n c e s.
H a vi n g s a i d t h a t , w e d o n o t b e l i e v e t h a t a n a p p l i c a t i o n
b r o u g h t u n d e r R u l e 8 . 3 o f t h e R e g u l a t i o n . . . s o rr y, R e g u l a t i o n
8 . 3 , h a s b e e n p r o p e rl y m a d e o u t i n t h i s c a s e .
Page 31 of 294

T h e i n t e g ri t y

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
o f M r F u zi l e s h o u l d b e a m p l y p r o t e ct e d b y t h e e vi d e n ce
l e a d e r s.
And we would, if we can, as a matter of... in order to
a s si st y o u M r C h a i r, w e w o u l d s a y t h a t t h e a p p l i c a t i o n s h o u l d
be refused.

We d o n o t t h i n k i t i s p r o p e rl y m a d e o u t .

As it

p l e a se s y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

Maybe before I go, I give

c o u n s e l f o r M r F u zi l e t h e o p p o rt u n i t y t o r e sp o n d. L e t m e a s k
w h e t h e r M r M a t h i p a h a s a n yt h i n g t o s a y a ri si n g f ro m t h i s s o
10

t h a t w h e n c o u n s e l f r o m M r F u zi l e s a y s o m e t h i n g , s h e i s t h e
l a st o n e f ro m c o u n s e l t o s a y s o m e t h i n g .
ADV MASUKU:
M r H u l l e y.

C h a i r p e r s o n , I w a s st r u g g l i n g a b i t t o h e a r

A m I c o r r e ct t h a t h e i s su g g e st i n g t h a t i n o r d e r

f o r t h e i n t e g ri t y o f M r F u zi l e t o b e p r o t e ct e d , t h e y h a ve n o
o b j e ct i o n t h a t t h e a p p l i ca t i o n ] i s g r a n t e d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i s s a yi n g , a s I u n d e r st a n d h i m , h e s a y s
he does not see any problem if... he does not think that
t h e . . . i f y o u h a v e g o t a n a p p l i c a t i o n i n t e r m s o f t h e r u l e s, y o u
h a ve
20

prepared

that

from

b ri n g i n g

it

or

r e l yi n g

on

the

re g u l a t i o n s i n o t h e r w o r d s.
H e w i l l n o t . . . i f I a m i n t e r p r e t i n g h i m c o r r e ct l y, h e i s n o t
nodding.

So

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

I

am

not

interpreting

him

i n c o r r e ct l y. B u t h e . . . a p a rt f ro m t h a t h e h a s s u b m i t t e d t h a t a
p r o p e r c a s e h a s n o t b e e n m a d e o u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V M A S U K U : O k a y.
Page 32 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . f o r t h e C o m m i s si o n , f o r m e , t o g r a n t

l e a v e . T h a t I t h i n k b e c a u s e I m a y h a ve m i si n t e r p r e t e d h i m , I
a m g o i n g t o a l l o w h i m t o c o m e a g a i n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
A D V M A S U K U : Ye s, C h a i r
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V M A S U K U : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t a k e o ff . . . [ i n d i s t i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V M A S U K U : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , so t h a t t h e y c a n h e a r.
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r p e r so n . S o r r y. Ye s,
C h a i r, y o u m i s u n d e r st o o d w h a t w e s u b m i t i s, t h a t w e d o n o t
s u p p o rt t h e a p p l i c a t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n b ro u g h t b y M r F u zi l e .
We w o u l d sa y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st r a i s e y o u r v o i c e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

We d o n o t s u p p o rt t h e a p p l i c a t i o n t h a t

h a s b e e n b r o u g h t b y M r F u zi l e .

We sa y t h a t M r F u zi l e h a s

n o t m a d e o u t a n a m p l e c a se t o b e a d m i t t e d t o cr o s s - e x a m i n e
Mr van Rooyen.
T h e . . . h i s p ri m a r y co n c e rn a p p e a r s t o b e a b o u t h i s. . . t h e
20

p r o t e ct i o n o f h i s i n t e g ri t y. We w o u l d s u b m i t t h a t h i s i n t e g ri t y
w o u l d b e a m p l y p ro t e ct e d b y t h e p ro c e s s t h a t i s. . . t h a t w i l l
b e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] , t h e q u e st i o n s t h a t w e w i l l b e a s k e d .
And we would hope that the integrity would be... his
i n t e g ri t y o r a n y b o d y’s i n t e g ri t y w o u l d b e p r o t e ct e d b y t h e
p r o c e s s o f t r yi n g t o a s ce rt a i n t h e t ru t h .
Page 33 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A n d w e a s t h e e vi d e n ce l e a d e r s a r e u n d e r a m a n d a t e
a n d a d u t y t o m a k e s u re t h a t w e a s k q u e st i o n s t o a s c e rt a i n
the truth.
S o t h a t s h o u l d b e a m p l e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] o f h i s i n t e g ri t y
s h o u l d b e a m p l y p ro t e ct e d i n t h a t p r o c e s s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja , o k a y.

T h a n k yo u .

I d o n o t t h i n k yo u

w o u l d h a v e a n yt h i n g t o d o . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV MASUKU: In that regard, Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
10

ADV MASUKU:

A l l I c a n s a y, I c o n cu r.

I h a ve n o t h i n g t o

add.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. T h a n k y o u . C o u n se l f o r M r F u zi l e .
ADV HASSIM:

T h a n k yo u ,

C h a i r.

I m u st

co r re ct t h e

c h a r a ct e r i sa t i o n b y m y co l l e a g u e s t h a t t h e a p p l i c a t i o n i s
m e r e l y t o p ro t e ct M r F u z i l e ’s i n t e g r i t y.

T h a t i s p a rt o f i t , n o

d o u b t b u t I w a s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] i n m y e a rl i e r su b m i s si o n s t o
p o i n t o u t t h a t i t i s a l s o a b o u t t h e a m b i t o f p a ra g r a p h 1 . 8 o f
t h e Te rm s o f R e f e re n c e a n d t h e p e c u l i a r i t y o f M r F u z i l e a s a
w i t n e s s b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s si o n i n t h a t h e i s t h e o n e w i t h
20

d i re ct kn o w l e d g e o f t h e e vi d e n c e o v e r t h o s e f o r g e r y i s t h a t
a r e a t p l a y a n d p a rt i c u l a rl y t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e t w o
a d vi s o r s.
So it is more than that.

A n d t h e p o i n t t o j u st sa y i n

o r d e r t o l e a v e n o st o n e u n t u r n e d , h e w o u l d b e o f a s si st a n ce .
CHAIRPERSON:

S h a l l w e a g r e e , I sh o u l d g i v e y o u f i v e
Page 34 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
minutes?
A D V H A S S I M : I t h i n k j u st t w o m i n u t e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
ADV HASSIM:

O n e m i n u t e w o u l d b e s u ff i ci e n t .

re l a t i o n t o t h e r u l e s.

J u st i n

Of course, the rules govern.... oh,

s o r r y, t h e p r o c e e d i n g s, t h a t t h e r u l e s a r e n o t t o b e i m p l i e d
i n f l e xi b l e a n d n o t u n d i sp u t e d a n d a p p r e ci a t e t h a t t h e r u l e s
i t s e l f , w h e n o n e h a s r e g a r d t o R u l e 11 a n d 1 2 , w h e r e t h e r e i s
a n o p e n - e n d e d r u l e w h i c h s a y s:
10

“A n yt h i n g

that

is

not

governed

by

t h i s. . .

any

a p p l i ca t i o n t h a t i s n o t p r o vi d e d f o r i n a n y o f t h e
ru l e s, m a y b e b r o u g h t , a s l o n g a s i t f o r a d e q u a t e
n o t i ce ”.
S o , I j u st w a n t e d t o c o r r e ct t h a t u n d e r st a n d i n g , t h a t t h e
ru l e s a r e n o t a s i n f l e xi b l e a s m i g h t b e s u g g e st e d .

And then

f i n a l l y, w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e o t h e r s e c t i o n s r e c a l l e d . T h e w h o l e
p o i n t o f t h e Mlungwana ca s e w a s t o s a y, “Ye s, i t i s u n u s u a l
b e ca u s e t h e r e i s n o l i st ”.
But that does not mean that it has no application.
20

It is

at paragraph 37 of that judgment is the judgment... is the
p a r a g ra p h I r e f e r r e d t h e C o m m i s si o n t o . T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you very much.

I am going to

re s e r v e m y d e ci si o n a n d t h e p a rt i e s w i l l b e . . . n o t t h e p a rt i e s,
all concerned, will be notified as soon as it is ready to be
handed down.
Page 35 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
So I think what we will have.

I think we will have one

s h o rt m a t t e r w h e re c o u n s e l n e e d t o s a y s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s
g o i n g t o b e t w o , t h r e e m i n u t e s.
So after that I will adjourn to allow counsel to leave who
a r e n o t i n vo l v e d i n t h e e vi d e n ce t h a t w i l l b e l e d f o r t h e d a y.
So

I

think

that

I

am

e x p e ct i n g

counsel

presenting

m i st e r. . . M s R a n j e n i w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e
C o m m i s si o n y e st e rd a y a n d I p o st p o n e d t h a t t o d a y.
So
10

Mr

Hulley

might

have

so m e t h i n g

to

say

before

c o u n s e l f o r M s R a n j e n i sa y s o m e t h i n g .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s, t h a n k y o u , M r C h a i rm a n. T h i s i s t h e
m a t t e r w h e r e M s R a n j e n i M u n u sa m i h a d b e e n g r a n t e d l e a ve
t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e a c e rt a i n w i t n e s s.

A s I u n d e r st a n d i t , sh e

h a s g i v e n a n i n d i c a t i o n t o t h e t ri b u n a l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
Masuku

I a m w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r. . . b e c a u s e M r

complained

that

he

could

not

h e a r.

I

wonder

w h e t h e r f r o m t h e d u r a t i o n o f w h a t y o u sa y y o u m i g h t . . .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

T h i s, M r C h a i r m a n , w a s a n a p p l i c a t i o n

that you had approved.

I t w a s a n a p p l i ca t i o n b r o u g h t b y M s

R a n j e n i M u n u s a m i t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e a p a rt i cu l a r w i t n e s s w h o
had implicated her and I believe it was a Mr Naidoo who had
i m p l i c a t e d h e r.
A n d s h e h a d w r i t t e n t o t h e C o m m i s si o n p u r p o rt e d l y t o
Page 36 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
withdraw her application.

We h a d m a d e c o n t a ct w i t h h e r

re c e n t l y t o . . . o r t h r o u g h h e r a t t o r n e y r e ce n t l y t o a s c e rt a i n
w h e t h e r sh e w a s g o i n g t o co m e t o t h e C o m m i s si o n a n y w a y
b e ca u s e s h e h a d n o t b e e n re l e a s e d a s s u c h , h a vi n g b r o u g h t
that application.
We u n d e r st a n d t h a t t h e a t t o r n e y h a s m a d e a r r a n g e m e n t s
with

the

junior

counsel

Chairman on the issue.

to

come

and

address

you

Mr

I u n d e r st a n d t h a t i t i s A d v o c a t e

Duncan Wild who will address you.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a n k y o u . C o u n se l f o r M s R a n j e n i .
A D V W I L D : T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V W I L D : D u n c a n W i l d i n st ru ct e d b y We b b We n t z e l f o r M s
R a n j e n i M u n u sa m i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V W I L D : A s M r H u l l e y s a i d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

J u t y o u . . . y o u m i g h t w i s h t o a d j u st yo u r

m i c. . . y o u r m a s k a b i t s o t h a t t h e y c a n h e a r y o u i n c a s e t h e y
do not hear you.
20

A D V W I L D : Ye s, t h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V W I L D : A l s o , I ca n n o t se e w i t h t h i s m a s k o n b e c a u se i t
m i st s m y g l a s s e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] Ye s.
ADV WILD: A bit of a problem.
Page 37 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV WILD:

Ye s, C h a i r.

So it concerns three applications

t h a t M s M u n u s a m i b r o u g h t re g a r d i n g t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r
Kobus Roelofse and Coronel Dhanajaya Gangulu Naidoo to
c ro s s - e x a m i n e b o t h o f t h o s e w i t n e s s e s.
Yo u

granted

b o t h t h o se

applications roundabout

the

3 r d o f D e c e m b e r l a st ye a r a n d t h e o t h e r t h e 2 5 t h o f M a r c h
t h i s y e a r.
In
10

the

exchange

of

a ff i d a vi t s

that

happened

after

3 D e ce m b e r, i t h a s b e co m e a p p a r e n t t o M s M u n u s a m i t h a t
t h o se

two

witnesses

have

no

d i re ct

evidence

of

her

w r o n g d o i n g a n d s h e h a s se t o u t h e r v e r si o n co m p r e h e n si v e l y
i n h e r o w n a ff i d a v i t s.
H o w e v e r, s h e r e m a i n s w i l l i n g t o t e st i f y a n d s h e w i l l
m a k e a rr a n g e m e n t s w i t h t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s b u t f o r t h o s e
re a s o n s a n d t h e f a ct t h a t s h e h a s. . . sh e d o e s n o t h a v e t h e
f i n a n c i a l r e s o u r c e s t o i n vo l v e l a w y e r s i n p r e p a ri n g f o r t h e
c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n , s h e w i s h e s n o t t o p e r si st w i t h t h o s e t w o
a p p l i ca t i o n s a n d n o t t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e a n y m o r e b u t s h e d o e s
20

re m a i n

willing

to

give

e vi d e n c e

if

required

by

the

C o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Wo u l d i t b e a c o rr e ct u n d e r st a n d i n g o f h e r

p o si t i o n t h a t , f r o m h e r p o i n t o f vi e w, s h e a b a n d o n s t h e r i g h t
t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e t h o se w i t n e s se s i n s o f a r a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n
h a s g r a n t e d h e r t h e ri g h t t o cr o s s - e x a m i n e t h e m b u t i f t h e
Page 38 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
C o m m i s si o n w o u l d l i k e h e r t o c o m e a n d t e st i f y, s h e i s h a p p y
t o co m e a n d t e st i f y.
A D V W I L D : T h a t i s e x a ct l y r i g h t , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
very much.

Ye s.

O k a y.

No, thank you.

Thank you

I t h i n k s h e w i l l h e a r f r o m t h e C o m m i s si o n o n c e

t h e y h a v e r e f l e ct e d o n t h e d e v e l o p m e n t s a n d i f t h e r e i s a
w i s h t h a t s h e s h o u l d co m e a n d t e st i f y, s h e w i l l b e c o n t a ct e d .
A D V W I L D : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Th a n k y o u .

I will then adjourn for a few

m i n u t e s t o e n a b l e co u n s e l w h o n e e d t o l e a ve t o l e a v e .

And

t h e n w e c a n re s u m e t o co n t i n u e w i t h t h e b u s i n e s s o f t h e d a y.
I a m g o i n g t o t a k e a t e n m i n u t e s s h o rt a d j o u r n m e n t .

I will

c o m e b a c k a t t e n t o e l e v e n . We a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Are you ready?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

Ye s .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

Shaik

and

Njenje

Security matters.

C h a i r, y o u w i l l r e c a l l t h a t M e s s r s

gave

evidence

in

relation

to

State

The third witness in that category of

witnesses is Ambassador Maqetuka and he is here to
testify.

You have a bundle before you which is EXHIBIT

PP3 which contains his statement and certain additional
documents as set out in the index.
Page 39 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

You

have

not

appeared

before

the

Commission for quite some time.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
it

is

not

cast

Correct.

Something that has been happening, and
in

stone,

and

you

can

make

your

own

contribution it, has been an approach that there is - the
actual exhibit is the statement and the annexures to it and
that the box, the file, is not the actual exhibit and that it is
convenient to call it as bundle so and so but when we refer
10

to the exhibit we actually refer to the statement or affidavit
or annexures.

That is not finalised but it is something that

has been happening.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yes, Chair, there is a saying

amongst the legal team that everybody who appears for the
first time must go through the bundle baptism.
that I am going through it too.

It seems

I will change the word

exhibit to bundle.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, okay, alright.

But, of course, we –

the bundle would have to have its different – like bundle S
20

or whatever and then the exhibit can remain – the affidavit
can remain as EXHIBIT PP3, so …[intervenes]
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Actually, Chair, it is nothing that

should be made light of because when the record is finally
prepared

it

should

be

consistent,

comprehensive.
Page 40 of 294

accessible

and

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, yes.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

And it is not and it is confused it

create big problems down the line.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.

No, no, that is true.

So you can

later on I think reflect on it but so long I will take EXHIBIT
PP3 to refer to the actual affidavit and the annexures.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yes, thank you, Chair, we will fix it

up and ensure that there is a consistency.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja, okay.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

May the witness…?

Yes,

please

administer the

oath

or

affirmation?
REGISTRAR: Please your full names for the record?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

I

am

Mzuvukile

Jeff

Maqetuka.
REGISTRAR:

Do you have any objection in taking the

prescribed affirm ation?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
REGISTRAR:
20

No, I do not.

Do you solem nly affirm that the evidence

you will give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing
else but the truth?

If so, please raise your right hand and

say I truly affirm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I fully affirm.

MZUVUKILE JEFF MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

(Affirms)

Thank you very much.
Page 41 of 294

The lighting is

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
worse than it was before.

I think there is a light that has

been switched off which was on earlier but the witness, I
could see when he was standing, and I am sure when he is
sitting, it is very dark where he is.

I think they are going

to switch on that light. I do not know if it disturbs anything
or it does not.

Mr Pretorius, I think it is taking longer than

they thought it would, maybe Stimela is going to tell you
something to say whether we need to adjourn or not to get
the matter to…
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I a m t o l d , C h a i r, t h a t t h e l i g h t

switches are locked away behind a door and that key needs
to be obtained and I am told five minutes will do it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Shall we adjourn for five minutes?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

A s y o u p l e a s e , C h a i r.

Or do you think we should continue?

PRETORIUS

SC:

I

am

happy

to

continue.

Ambassador?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I am fine, Mr Pretorius.

Ye s , o k a y, m a y b e l e t u s c o n t i n u e .

Once

they are ready to fix they will tell Reverent Stimela we
need to adjourn or if they are able to switch it on without
u s a d j o u r n i n g t h e n w e w i l l c o n t i n u e . O k a y, l e t u s c o n t i n u e .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.
Before

we

do

so.

Ambassador

Maqetuka, I just want to thank you for coming forward to
Page 42 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
assist the Commission.

Yo u w o u l d b e a w a r e , I a m s u r e ,

that since 2018 I have been calling upon past and present
DGs of different departments and ministers and deputy
ministers

and

other

officials

in

government

who

know

something that this Commission should be told to please
come forward and do so.

A number of ministers or past

ministers and DGs have come forward. I remain concerned
that I should have had many more than I have.

I hope that

there will still be some who will come forward but I really
10

want to express the Commission’s appreciation to you that
you have come forward to assist the Commission with what
y o u k n o w. W e r e a l l y a p p r e c i a t e t h a t v e r y m u c h .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

The one thing that you must

Thank you.

assist me with is whether it is Ambassador Maqetuka or –
because I am not clued up with some of these titles but I
know when General Nyanda was here he told me that once
a general always a general, so…

But I want to use the

right title. That is the bottom line.
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I a m t o l d A m b a s s a d o r, t h a t t h e t i t l e

remains.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It is the same with the

generals.
CHAIRPERSON:

It is the same as the generals.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s , C h a i r.

Page 43 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u , A m b a s s a d o r.

Ye s , M r

Pretorius, you may proceed.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

A m b a s s a d o r,

you were formerly employed as the Director General of the
S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Correct.

When were you appointed?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I was appointed in 2009,

October 2009.
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

And you retired from the service

when?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I retired from the service on

the 28 January 2012.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Alright.

Yo u m a y k e e p y o u r m i c o n , A m b a s s a d o r,

and if you want to move it so that it is closer to you so you
do not have to move forward all the time that will be fine.
Thank you.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

T h a n k s , C h a i r.

During December 2018 you signed

a statement which we will refer to as your first statement
and that is annexed as annexure MM1.

Is that your first

statement?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Is that the one after the

affidavit?
Page 44 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , m a r k e d M M 1 .

The MM! would be those blue dividers

that – well, they are blue with mine, I am assuming they
are blue with your file as well but they might be a different
c o l o u r.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

U n f o r t u n a t e l y, I o n l y h a v e

one divider here which is marked 2.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh,

I

am

s o r r y,

A m b a s s a d o r,

it

is

important that you have exactly the same thing as I have
10

and as Mr Pretorius has.

Maybe, Mr Pretorius, I should

adjourn to get that fixed because it will give us problems
throughout.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Thank you – no, I have got

it, Mr Pretorius.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yo u h a v e i t ?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I h a v e i t , A d v o c a t e .

Ye s , I w i l l r e f e r t o p a g e n u m b e r s i n

due course and during the short adjournment we can put
t h e d i v i d e r s i n , C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

My apologies, that should have

been done.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

In any event you did sign a

statement in December 2018, is that correct, Ambassador?
Page 45 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , y e s , s i r.

And if you go to page 24 of the

bundle now in front of you – it will be page 24 or 25.

Is

that your signature?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV

PRETORIUS

SC:

Ye s , i t i s .
And

you

have

affirmation that this is your statement.

confirmed

by

Are you satisfied

that its contents are true and correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Fully satisfied, Advocate.

If we

go

to page

2

of your

statement …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Pretorius, I am just trying to have a

l o o k h e r e . O h o k a y, n o w I s e e w h a t t h e p o s i t i o n i s . I t h i n k
what happened is my staff put the unsigned affidavit that I
got much earlier in as well but the signed one is there, but
I was looking at the unsigned one and page 24 of it does
not have his signature but that is because I have got two
24s but there is a page 24 which has got his signature, so
it is fine.
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

Ja.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

If we can go to page 2 of your

s t a t e m e n t , A m b a s s a d o r.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I a m t h e r e , A d v o c a t e .

Yo u w i l l s e e t h e r e s e t o u t t h e n i n e
Page 46 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
topics that you will cover in your evidence.

We do not

need to deal with this list in any detail but in summary I
understand you will tell the Chair about matters relating
generally to national security in its constitutional context
a n d p r i n c i p l e s a t t a c h i n g t o t h e p r a c t i c e o f n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y.
Do I understand that correctly?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

That is correct.

Yo u w i l l a l s o d e a l w i t h c e r t a i n

factual matters that were also dealt with by Messrs Njenje
10

and Shaik in relation to Minister Cwele and the former
President

in

relation

in

particular

to

the

Gupta

investigation.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Correct.

And you will also deal with certain

other matters and we will explain them in due course, the
Principal

Agent

Network

1

investigation

which

we

c o l l o q u i a l l y r e f e r t o a s t h e PA N 1 i n v e s t i g a t i o n a n d c e r t a i n
other matters and ultimately your resignation.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

C o r r e c t , s i r.

Because you are going to tell the

Chair of your views and opinions arising out of your own
experience in the field of intelligence, perhaps you would
tell

the

Chair

very

briefly

and

in

summary

what

your

b a c k g r o u n d a n d e x p e r i e n c e i s i n t h e i n t e l l i g e n c e f i e l d . Yo u
deal with that on page 3 of your statement.
Page 47 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s , s i r. I t i s a l o n g s t o r y, i t

i s a l o n g j o u r n e y, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

But safe to say that I have

been a member of the intelligence and security in exile
1 9 7 9 u p u n t i l m y r e t i r e m e n t i n 2 0 1 2 b a s i c a l l y.

But, of

course, there were other functions in between that I did in
various years during my tenure.
1979
10

I

had

my

military

But safe to say that from

training

in

both

Mozambique,

Angola, where I had my full military six months training as
a company commander and I graduated at a camp called
Bungo.

T h a t w o u l d b e n o w i n 1 9 8 0 , a r o u n d a b o u t J u l y,

J u n e , J u l y.
From there with three colleagues we went for a
specialised training in the craft of intelligence in the then
German Democratic Republic, the GDR, as it was called.
We

had

a

intelligence

four

months

and

in

the

training,
craft

intensive
of

training

intelligence

in
and

counterintelligence.
20

I r e t u r n e d f r o m t h e G D R a r o u n d a b o u t O c t o b e r,
November and went back to Angola, transit to Mozambique.
T h i s n o w i s 1 9 8 0 , C h a i r. A n d i m m e d i a t e l y a f t e r m y t r a i n i n g
I was then fully incorporated into the structures of what
was

then

called

the

Department

of

Intelligence

S e c u r i t y, p o p u l a r l y k n o w n a m o n g s t a s D I S .
Page 48 of 294

and

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

For how long were you working

with DIS?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

A s I s a y, I c a n s a f e l y s a y

from 1979 up until amalgamation of the six South African
Intelligence Services.

Yo u w i l l r e c a l l , C h a i r, a s p a r t o f t h e

outcome of the negotiations.
the

six

National

recognised
Intelligence

intelligent

South Africa, by then, had
services.

Services of

the

One

apartheid

was

the

regime.

Then there was the Department of Intelligence and Security
10

of the African National Congress.

Then there was the

Bophuthatswana Intelligence Service which was BIS.

And

t h e n t h e r e w a s t h e Ve n d a I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r v i c e , V I S .

And

t h e n t h e r e w a s t h e Tr a n s k e i I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r v i c e , T R I S .
Those five services were the services that were
recognised as services that would be integrated into a
future South African Intelligence dispensation.
I can also safely say that later we were joined also
b y t h e PA C b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d r e c a l l t h a t t h e PA C j o i n e d
the negotiation process slightly later than the rest but
20

ultimately they joined and they were integrated into the
process, therefore that is why today we safely say that
there were six intelligence services that were integrated in
what

would

be

called

today

your

National

Intelligence

Agency that is NIA and all the others, which I am sure we
w i l l d e a l w i t h i t l a t e r.
Page 49 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Yo u h a v e s a i d t h a t y o u s t a r t e d y o u r

t r a i n i n g i n 1 9 7 9 , d i d y o u s a y i n G e r m a n y o r. . . ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The orientation into that

training actually started at the beginning January 1979 in
Mozambique.
CHAIRPERSON:

In Mozambique, yes.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

But that was not your fully-

fledged training, it was orientation.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
AMBASSADOR

Ye s .
MAQETUKA:

The

training,

the

full

training started in Angola.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I n J a n u a r y 1 9 8 0 , C h a i r.
Now

that

was

obviously

not

training …[intervenes]
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s i t n o t t r a i n i n g i n t e l l i g e n c e ?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

No, it was …[intervenes]

In Angola?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

In intelligence.

It was a military training.

Oh, military training?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Were

O k a y.

you

undergoing

that

training by reason of being a member of any freedom – or
Page 50 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
movement or party that was fighting for freedom?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

When I went to exile in 1979

I joined the African National Congress and the training that
I w i l l b e t a l k i n g t o a n d t h a t I a m t a l k i n g t o , C h a i r, w o u l d b e
under the auspices of the African National Congress and
the military training within the ANC was under the auspices
uMkhonto we Sizwe.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV
10

Ye s . N o , t h a n k y o u .

PRETORIUS

SC:

Ye s

and

the

specialised

intelligence training you have referred to took place in
1980.
AMBASSADOR
around

about

MAQETUKA:
June,

J u l y.

1980,
A c t u a l l y,

the
I

specialised,

have

just

been

working over the past few days, I narrow it to have arrived
i n t h e G D R a t t h e e n d o f M a y, b e g i n n i n g o f J u n e . A n d h o w
I m a n a g e d t o n a r r o w t h a t , j u s t a s a b a c k g r o u n d , C h a i r, i f
y o u d o n o t m i n d , w a s t h a t i n 1 9 8 0 , 3 1 M a y, t h a t i s w h e n a
unit

of

uMkhonto

we

Sizwe

attacked

the

SASOL

and

N AT R E F p l a n t a n d t h a t w a s o n t h e 3 1 M a y 1 9 8 0 a n d
20

b e c a u s e w h y I r e m e m b e r i t s o v i v i d l y n o w, i t i s b e c a u s e a t
the time of the attack that was the week or the period when
we arrived in Berlin and a senior member of the National
Executive of the ANC happened to have arrived in Berlin
and he came to our camp to come and brief us about the
developments inside the country and that SASOL attack.
Page 51 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
That is how I managed to remember it. But it is interesting
to

- i f I t e l l y o u , C h a i r, t h a t i f y o u h a d a s k e d m e t h i s

question say a year ago, I would not have remembered the
dates but I have been thinking about these things all the
time and all the time.

That is why now I am specific and I

am in a position to focus it to a specific date.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

PRETORIUS

A m b a s s a d o r,
10

Thank you.

of

SC:
the

Yo u

spoke

amalgamation

of

a

moment
six

ago,

intelligent

services into a service called the NIA, National Intelligence
A g e n c y, a n d t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n S e c r e t S e r v i c e a s w e l l .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s , a g a i n , a s a w a y o f

s h o r t b a c k g r o u n d , C h a i r, i n 1 9 9 4 , M a y, I c o m p l e t e d m y
studies in England. I completed my BA in Communications,
s p e c i a l i s i n g i n p h o t o g r a p h y, f i l m a n d t e l e v i s i o n s t u d i e s ,
and I came back in May 1994 which was the time when the
negotiations were almost at the end and subcommittees
had already been established.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

So when you talk about negotiation,

means in this context that were about to end, you talk
about

negotiations

aimed

at

integrating

the

various

intelligent services?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Not only the intelligence

services.
CHAIRPERSON:

And not the entire negotiations for a new
Page 52 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
constitution?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It is the entire negotiations

but the relevance of this, that I am being asked by the
advocate, is in relation to intelligence within that broad
negotiations for a new dispensation.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, I was asking that question because

the first democratic election was on the 27 April 1994.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

And, as I understood what you were

saying, you were talking about towards end of May or 1994
or did I misunderstand something?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I came back from my studies

in May 1994 and by then the negotiations – or let me not
say – it is not the negotiations per se, the integration of
these six intelligence services was behind the schedule,
that is why I joined the integration – the negotiations for
the integration of these six services in May 1994.

But you

a r e c o r r e c t , C h a i r, i t w a s a f t e r t h e e l e c t i o n s b y t h e n .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Thank you.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

I u n d e r s t a n d , A m b a s s a d o r,

that the six organisations were integrated in January 1995.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Correct.

ADV

And

PRETORIUS

appointment

at

SC:

that

stage

in

did
the

Intelligence Agency?
Page 53 of 294

you
NIA,

receive
the

an

National

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Correct.

In 1995 I was then

appointed as the Deputy Director General of the National
I n t e l l i g e n c e A g e n c y, t h e o l d N I A , c o r r e c t .
ADV

PRETORIUS

essential

SC:

difference

Alright.

between

the

And

what

National

was

the

Intelligence

Agency on the one hand and the South African Secret
Service on the other?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Adv Pretorius, ultimately

this integration of these six intelligence services were into
10

the NIA, that is the National Intelligence Service which was
a domestic intelligence service.

The South African Secret

Service, which was the foreign intelligence service.
there

was

the

South

Africa

National

Then

Academy

of

Intelligence which was the training institution.

Then there

was

Committee

the

National

called NICOC.

Intelligence

Coordinating

That is in a nutshell but I am sure we will

come to it.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

We will come to that in due course.

The various communications or interception agencies were
20

separate at that stage.
AMBASSADOR
structure

but

MAQETUKA:
not

a

department

There
but

it

were

a

separate

was

a

separate

structure.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

A n y w a y, t o t h e e x t e n t n e c e s s a r y,

as part of your evidence, we can explain that in due
Page 54 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
course.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I w i l l .

But as Deputy Director General of

the NIA in 1995 you then dealt with domestic intelligence?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Correct.

And in that capacity you served

until when?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I served as the DDG of NIA

between 1995 up until 1997.
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

And after that I understand, if I

may just lead you on this, I understand that you served in
various national government departments and finally as an
Ambassador in Algeria.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Correct.

When did you come back to South

Africa in order to occupy what position?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

In 2007 I was appointed

South Africa’s ambassador to Algeria, that was 2007 until
2009 when I was appointed the Director General of the
20

South African – SSA, State…
CHAIRPERSON:

S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y.

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

J a . T h a n k s , C h a i r.

It may become relevant later but
Page 55 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the circumstances which gave rise to your re-entry into the
intelligence

service

in

2010,

would

you

tell

the

Chair

briefly how that came about?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Ye s

I

can.

What

had

happened is that whilst I was on station in Algiers, I
received a telephone call from the then Director General of
t h e t h e n F o r e i g n A f f a i r s , w h i c h i s c a l l e d D E R C O n o w, t o
say that I will have to travel back home for consultations.
There are matters that I am supposed to be engaged with,
10

with

the

President

and

the

Minister

for

Intelligence

Service.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The Minister then was?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The Minister that was Dr

Siyabonga Cwele.
CHAIRPERSON:

And the Director General of the then

Foreign Affairs was?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The Director General was Dr

Ayanda Ntsaluba.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

Did you then return?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s , f o r t h e c o n s u l t a t i o n s

and of course nothing was explained over the telephone
what it was for and he was just told that when you arrive in
Pretoria then you will get the full briefings and indeed I left
Algiers, arrived in Pretoria and of course the first place of
protocol was m y departm ent, which was Foreign Affairs
Page 56 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
then.

I had a short consultation with DG Ntsaluba who

then briefed me that actually you are needed by your
former department, that is the Intelligence and that the
Minister for Intelligence will brief you because I am not
equipped to give you that briefing, what I am involved in is
to facilitate because you are still a member of Foreign
Affairs, it was in that context.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Did the Minister Cwele brief you?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

Ye s h e d i d .

I met with

Minister Cwele who welcomed me and then he told me that
there is a new agency that is being formed and that there
is going to be a reintegration of the two separate agencies
that is the National Intelligence Agency and the South
African

Secret

Services

and

all

other

structures

of

intelligence would be integrated into one organisation now
w h i c h b e c a m e t h e S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

That integration is a matter of

some controversy in the evidence of Messrs Shaik and
Njenje and also in your evidence which you will deal with
20

in due course.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s I w i l l .

Did you then receive an offer from

the sitting President?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s b e c a u s e t h e M i n i s t e r

then told me that you will have a consultation with the
Page 57 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
President where now you will get the final details of what it
is that the President wants and indeed I met President
Jacob Zuma at his residence in Mashandlovu [?] and the
President welcomed me and confirmed what Minister Cwele
had said, that he intends appointing me.

That is the

language that is used Chair when you are appointed at that
level.

Yo u a r e f i r s t t o l d t h a t i t i s a n i n t e n t i o n , b e c a u s e i t

is always subject to your acceptance or not acceptance.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

So by the time you spoke to the

former President you had made the decision to accept the
position I understand?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Not at that stage really to

be honest in my mind, because knowing the processes I
needed a confirmation that indeed what Minister Cwele had
briefed me is in tandem with what the President is saying,
and of course we always, and I knew that the President
w o u l d n o t e x p e c t t o g e t a n a n s w e r i m m e d i a t e l y, l e t a l o n e

20

t h e f a c t t h a t I w a s s t i l l a n a m b a s s a d o r.

I would still need

to

released

go

back

to Algiers

to

be

formally

by

the

President of Algeria. That is the protocol again, as an
Ambassador you don’t just leave your station, I mean that
is an offence to diplomatic and protocol.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

U l t i m a t e l y, w e k n o w, a s y o u s a y i n

your statement, you accepted the appointment.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ultimately correct.

Page 58 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , a n d a t t h e s a m e t i m e w e h a v e

heard evidence that Ambassador Sheik accepted a position
and Minister Njenje too.

What were their positions, would

you just describe them for the Chair?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
introduced

to

the

media

When we were formally
the

Minister

held

a

press

conference which is again protocol and before the press
conference then we were in a holding room, that is when I
first met Shaik and Njenje, right because at that time I
10

didn’t know who else was going to be in this SAA, then I
met Njenje and Shaik and we greeted each other and then
it came out that all of us didn’t know what we were going to
b e , y o u k n o w.
Can I proceed?
A D V P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s p l e a s e .
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Until

the

actual

press

conference, it was in the actual press conference that
Minister

Cwele

then

informed

the

public

about

our

appointments, that I am being appointed, I have been – I
20

am being appointed as the Director General of the State
S e c u r i t y A g e n c y, a n d I w i l l b e d e p u t i s e d b y A m b a s s a d o r
Shaik, who will herd the foreign component, the foreign
branch, and Mr Njenje who will herd the domestic branch.
I am deliberately using the words “herd” as I will
e x p l a i n l a t e r i n m y e v i d e n c e C h a i r.
Page 59 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Well you say that you heard for the first

time at the press conference what your position was going
to be, when you met Mr President prior to this before you
went back to Algeria when he expressed his intention to
appoint you did he not specify the position to which he
wanted ...[intervenes]
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

No

the

President,

the

President did.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s i t

The President did.
the

same

position

that

was

announced in the press release?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

That was the same position

that was announced and if my memory even serves me
well, if I recall back, as we were going to the press
conference all, I think Minister Cwele did whisper to me
that the President has decided that you will be the Director
General but formally and to all of us it was only at the
press conference that our designations were announced.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yo u h a v e t o u c h e d o n i t a l r e a d y

Ambassador and you explain in your ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I see it is half past eleven, we normally

have tea at quarter past but we – today’s programme is not
going the way it normally goes, I think we must just agree
Page 60 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
when we will have a tea adjournment or whether we should
not have.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e i n y o u r h a n d s C h a i r.

I a m q u i t e e a s y, s h o u l d w e h a v e a t

twelve or should ...[intervenes]
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I am happy to accommodate any

t i m e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ambassador?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I w i l l b e l e d b y y o u C h a i r.

Ye s .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Perhaps a comfort break for ten

m i n u t e s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, about ten minutes at twelve o’clock?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

At twelve o’clock.

J a , o k a y, a l r i g h t , y e s .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ambassador you have touched on

it already and you will speak a little more about it but at
the time of your appointm ent as DG and Accounting Officer
of the amalgamated intelligent service your mandate was to
20

arrange and facilitate that amalgamation I understand it, is
that correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The integration yes.

Ye s , n o w i n t h e c o u r s e o f d o i n g s o

the mechanics of that are contained in your first statement
or annexure C to your first statement and we are not going
Page 61 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
t o d e a l w i t h i t h e r e , t h a t i s a n a d m i n i s t r a t i v e m a t t e r l a r g e l y,
but what is important in your statement is the principled
work

that

you

did

and

in

particular

your

reference

paragraph 25 to the white paper on intelligence.

in

We are

going to deal with the contents of that white paper in some
detail in due course, but what is this white paper on
intelligence, when was it written and presented and why is
it – if it is – an important document?

10

AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

department,

in

but

In

Intelligence

in

any

government

p a r t i c u l a r,

the

white

paper was developed in 1994 as part of that basket of
negotiations.
intelligence,

A white paper sets out the philosophy for
the

structure

of

intelligence,

the

code

of

conduct for intelligence practitioners, or officers as we
w o u l d s a y. T h a t i s t h e w h i t e p a p e r, a n d t h e – w e u s u a l l y
see

it

as

important

the
than

most
the

important

legislation,

document,
because

the

even

more

legislation

becomes more an operational guide.
After the Constitution, let me also be clear on that
20

because it is important within the South African Democratic
dispensation that everything flows from the Constitution,
that is why I think, if I am not mistaken, you will pardon me
C h a i r, I a m n o t a l e g a l e x p e r t , I k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t l e g a l
mattes, nor do I but I have been educated by your team
t h a t t h e r e i s c h a p t e r 1 9 8 o f t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n w h i c h r e a l l y,
Page 62 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
really sets out matters of National Security so matters –
and it is broad in the Constitution, it does not necessarily
zoom into intelligence or military divisions and blah-blahblah,

but

those

would

be

contained,

one

after

the

c o n s t i t u t i o n t h o s e w o u l d b e c o n t a i n e d i n t h e w h i t e p a p e r.
The guidelines even in the white paper and that is
t h e r e l e v a n c e a n d t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e w h i t e p a p e r.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u t o u c h o n t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 .

A n d p r o b a b l y, M r P r e t o r i u s , p r o b a b l y

they probably didn’t say Chapter 198 they probably said
Section 198 Ambassador ...[intervenes]
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

I

know

It is chapter ...[intervenes]
our

Constitution

is

quite

important but I don’t think it has got so many chapters.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

It should be chapter 3.

I suspect that they didn’t say chapter

198 or they may have said Section 198 or Chapter 3.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , o k a y, o k a y.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

It is Chapter 3 Chairperson.

Ye s , 1 9 8 o r 9 8 y e s .

J a , o k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The context in which the white

paper was developed Ambassador is important for your
e v i d e n c e l a t e r.

Yo u t o u c h o n t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 . W h a t

was happening at the time of course is that one was
Page 63 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
moving

from

the

old

apartheid

system

to

the

democratic structure set out in the Constitution.

new

In that

context what was the importance of the white paper and
what

was

the

importance

of

the

transformation

of

Intelligence?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The salient importance of

that white paper Chair is that for the first time in the
history of South Africa the white paper made it very clear
that the new intelligence dispensation one would be a
10

democratic

one,

and

it

went

further

to

say

the

new

Intelligence Dispensation shall not only concentrate on
your traditional military security matters, but it will also
d e a l w i t h i s s u e s o f h u m a n s e c u r i t y, t h a t i s t h e w e l l b e i n g o f
its people.
Now that is fundamentally important because it was
f o r t h e f i r s t t i m e . T h a t ’ s w h a t t h e w h i t e p a p e r s t a t e d C h a i r.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
section

under

the

Ye s , y o u q u o t e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 a

head

“Philosophy

of

Intelligence”,

perhaps that might be read on the record, paragraph 26,
20

page 7 of your statement.
CHAIRPERSON:

That’s at page 7 hey?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The red numbers at the top.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Is it the red numbers.

Ja, look at the red numbers ja.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Page 7 ...[intervenes]

Page 64 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Is it 6 or 7 Mr Pretorius?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Seven, well ...

On mine it is seven.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s i t i s s e v e n o n m i n e t o o , t h a n k

goodness.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, okay he won’t call 007 he will just

say seven, but that’s the red numbers on the top right-hand
c o r n e r.
AMBASSADOR
10

MAQETUKA:

Ye s ,

I

am

there

C h a i r,

pardon me.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i t m a y b e t h a t a s i m i l a r l a m p s h o u l d

be obtained for the area where the witness is, that might
not be something that can maybe obtained today but going
forward so that it is much more.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Lighter ja.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

It is not very helpful there.

Ja, ja.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

Ye s C h a i r.

That extract in paragraph 26 would

you read it onto the record please.
AMBASSADOR
statement,

MAQETUKA:

section

1

of

the

Paragraph
white

paper

26
sets

of

my

out

its

objective namely:
“to serve as a framework for the understanding of
t h e p h i l o s o p h y, m i s s i o n a n d r o l e o n i n t e l l i g e n c e i n a
Page 65 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
democratic

South

Africa.

This

philosophy

on

intelligence is dealt with in Section 3 (3)(1) where it
is

explained

that

reshaping

and

transforming

intelligence in South Africa is not only a matter of
organisational

restructuring,

it

should

start

with

clarifying the philosophy and redefining the mission,
focus

and

priorities

of

intelligence

in

order

to

establish a new culture of intelligence.”
T h a t i s w h a t i s e n c a p s u l a t e d i n t h e w h i t e p a p e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u

emphasized

a

minute

ago

the

importance of the reference in the white paper to the new
intelligence
wellbeing

of

structure
the

having

people.

to

May

also
I

ask

look

after

whether

the

that

is

something that accords with the international standards or
in some countries that may be a democratic societies or it
was just something specific because it came at

time when

South Africa was being democratised and it was thought
that it was important that even the intelligence community
must know that the wellbeing of the people is paramount.
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

In my response Chair where

I don’t think we will and we should claim as South Africa
that we were the only ones, it was informed basically by
democracies in certain parts of the world, especially recall
by then the cold war had stopped and this was informed by
experiences

from

countries

like

Page 66 of 294

your

Canada,

your

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A u s t r a l i a , y o u r U K w h o a r e v e r y, v e r y s t r o n g i n t h i s f i e l d ,
and in this new mindset for intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yo u t o u c h o n t h i s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 7

and we will then go to the white paper and look at the
principles set out there which you have touched on already
ambassador but when and Messrs Shaik and Njenje were
appointed was there any clarification in relation to the
p h i l o s o p h y, m i s s i o n o r i n t e l l i g e n c e i n t e n d e d f o r t h e n e w t o
10

be formed SSA provided to you?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
w h a t s o e v e r.

Not at all, there was none

That is why if you may allow me advocate, I

c a n r e a d f r o m m y s t a t e m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 7 C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m a y d o s o .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

And I can reconfirm that

when we were appointed there had been no opportunity for
us to be re-orientated or to be briefed.

What is this new

philosophy now that is being ushered in?
Remember we are moving now from a dispensation,
20

from 1994 and by 20 – and at that time you didn’t have an
integrated intelligence, you had your separate intelligent
services.

Now you are integrating our – okay before I

m o v e t o t h a t – t h a t i s n o w, w e b e l i e v e t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e ,
they

would

have

had

an

opportunity

philosophy for the SSA.
Page 67 of 294

to

discuss

the

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right and you say in paragraph 27

that in order to be guided in respect of that philosophy you
resorted to the white paper and the principles set out
there?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

Chair would this be a convenient

time for a ten minute adjournment?

We are going to go to

the white paper now which is a new topic.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , n o t h a t ’ s f i n e .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

And I want to take this opportunity

to put the dividers in their places there.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay so maybe we should make it 15

minutes?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

A s y o u p l e a s e C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y,

we

will

take

the

short

adjournment, it is quarter to twelve, we will resume at
twelve o’clock.
We adjourn.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay let us continue.

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k yo u C h a i r. A m b a s s a d o r w o u l d
you please go to Annexure MM2 they have now been marked
Page 68 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
in your bundle?

A n d i f yo u w o u l d t u r n t o p a g e 9 0 .

Is that

the intelligence white paper?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : C o r r e ct .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e f i r st p a r a g r a p h r e a d s:
“ T h i s w h i t e p a p e r i s i n t e n d e d t o p r o vi d e a f r a m e w o r k f o r t h e
u n d e r st a n d i n g

of

the

p h i l o so p h y,

m i s si o n

and

ro l e

of

i n t e l l i g e n c e i n a d e m o c r a t i c S o u t h A f ri ca . ”
T h e C h a i r h a s a s k e d yo u t h e q u e st i o n a s t o w h e t h e r t h i s
intelligence white paper was guided by or influenced by
10

i n t e r n a t i o n a l d e m o cr a t i c p r a ct i ce .

D o y o u h a v e a n yt h i n g t o

a d d t o y o u r p re v i o u s c o m m e n t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, no, I do not.

informed rather than influenced.

It was

It was informed really by –

ja.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s.

A n d y o u a l so e x p l a i n e d t o t h e

C h a i r t h a t t h i s p a p e r w a s d e ve l o p e d a g a i n st t h e b a c k g r o u n d
o f a n e e d f o r a n e w d e m o c r a t i c d i s p e n sa t i o n .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : C o r r e ct S i r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s b e c a u se i t i s re f l e ct e d i n t h e
20

l a n g u a g e o f t h e c o n st i t u t i o n t h e d i st i n ct i o n b e t w e e n h u m a n
s e c u ri t y o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d st a t e s e c u ri t y o n t h e o t h e r i t i s
a m a t t e r y o u h a ve ra i s e d f re q u e n t l y i n t h e p a st .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Sure.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t i s t h e s i g n i f i c a n c e o f t h a t ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : To m e I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t
Page 69 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
i s a m a t t e r o f i n t e rp r e t a t i o n b e c a u s e I l e a rn t t h a t i n t h e l e g a l
f i e l d i t c a n b e a n i s s u e b u t i n m y i n t e r p re t a t i o n w h i c h I c a n
safely

say

many

of

my

colleagues

agree

with

the

i n t e r p r e t a t i o n . P e o p l e l i k e N j e n j e a n d – a n d S h a i k t h a t i f yo u
look

at

national.

the

p re

2009

new

d i s p e n sa t i o n

e ve r yt h i n g

was

T h e N a t i o n a l I n t e l l i g e n c e A g e n t s y o u k n o w.

And

w e h a ve – w e h a ve g r o w n i n t o t h e b e l i e vi n g t h a t t h i s
i n st i t u t i o n c a l l e d I n t e l l i g e n c e i t i s a n a t i o n a l r a t h e r t h a n a
st a t e i n st r u m e n t .
10

H e n c e , w e h a d a p r o b l e m a n d I a m st i l l

h a vi n g a p r o b l e m t o – t o u n d e r st a n d o r t o a c c e p t t h a t w e
h a ve m o v e d f r o m n a t i o n a l i n t o st a t e .

So the immediate

q u e st i o n a n d w e a r e st i l l a s k i n g o u r s e l v e s t h e s e q u e st i o n s.
D i d t h e p ri n c i p l e s t h a t i s t h e p o l i c y m a k e r s – d i d t h e y r e a l l y
think through even on those two concepts?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s A m b a s s a d o r so m e m a y s a y w e l l

i t i s j u st a n a m e b u t p e rh a p s y o u c a n e x p l a i n w h a t i s b e h i n d
t h e d i st i n ct i o n ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I – i n m y u n d e r st a n d i n g a g a i n

a n d a g a i n c o r r o b o r a t e d b y m y o t h e r co l l e a g u e o n e o f t h e
20

challenges that we think happened in 2009 it was part of the
problems that the country was ushered in by 2007.
P o l o k w a n e c o n f e r e n ce a n d t h e c h a n g e o f r e g i m e .

The

And that

t h e n e w r e g i m e w a n t e d t o c h a n g e e v e r yt h i n g t h a t w e r e – t h a t
came from the old.

A s I sa y i t i s a m a t t e r o f i n t e r p re t a t i o n

m a y b e b u t t h e y w o u l d b e t h e b e st .
Page 70 of 294

W h a t t h e A m e ri c a n s

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
c a l l e d t h e f r a m e r s o f o u r d i s -i n t e l l i g e n ce – d i s p e n sa t i o n t h a t
d e ci d e d t h a t i t s h o u l d b e st a t e r a t h e r n a t i o n a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g w o u l d o n t h e f a ce

o f i t t h e c h a n g e f ro m n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y t o st a t e s e c u r i t y i n
a n y w a y o n t h e f a c e o f i t I a c c e p t t h a t t h e re m i g h t b e
a r g u m e n t s t o t h e co n t r a r y – o n t h e f a c e o f i t w o u l d i t
re s e m b l e

a n yt h i n g

compared

to

what

the

focus

of

the

i n t e l l i g e n c e u n d e r a p a rt h e i d w a s o r n o t r e a l l y ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

I – I think Chair we will come

– we will touch…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i l l d e a l w i t h t h a t i n d u e co u r s e .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I think we will touch with your

q u e st i o n w h e n w e d e a l w i t h t h e p r o cl a m a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: As an example.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t i s f i n e . T h a t i s f i n e .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

But if I do not deal with it

s a t i sf a ct o ri l y m a y b e I c o u l d t h e n t r y a n d

discuss other

e x a m p l e s b u t w e c a n t r y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

Ye s.

Ye s i t i s j u st t h a t yo u – y o u d o

e m p h a si s e a n d y o u h a v e d o n e s o re p e a t e d l y a n d I m u st
a s s u m e i t i s b e c a u s e o f t h e i m p o rt a n ce o f t h e i s s u e y o u d o
e m p h a si s e t h e – t h e c h a n g e o f t h e l a n g u a g e f r o m n a t i o n a l t o
st a t e .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : To S t a t e .
Page 71 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e f o r e , b e c a u se I a m – I h a v e n e v e r
b e e n i n i n t e l l i g e n c e I w a n t t o u n d e r st a n d w h y i n y o u r m i n d
t h i s d i st i n ct i o n i s s o i m p o rt a n t . B u t I a c c e p t t h a t f o r n o w y o u
m i g h t b e a b l e t o c l a ri f y t h a t l a t e r.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I j u st w a n t y o u t o u n d e r st a n d w h y I w a s
a s ki n g t h a t q u e st i o n .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : I u n d e r st a n d C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

We l l p e r h a p s v e r y b ri e f l y f o r t h e

present it will come up later in the detail in the white paper
but

in

d e ve l o p i n g

in

the

words

of

the

white

paper

a

re m o d e l l i n g o f t h e m o r a l c o d e s a n d o r g a n i s a t i o n a l c u l t u r e
g o ve r n i n g t h e i n t e l l i g e n ce e n vi r o n m e n t .

T h e p u rp o s e o f t h e

i n t e l l i g e n c e c o m m u n i t y a n d st r u ct u r e s w h o m u st t h e y s e r v e ?
AMBASSADOR
st ru ct u r e

of

MAQETUKA:

government

p e o p l e p ri m a ri l y.

m u st

The
serve

intelligence
the

like

i n t e r e st

of

any
the

T h e st a t e b e co m e s t h e c o n d u i t a n d t h e

o v e r si g h t o v e r i t s d e p a rt m e n t s – a r e t h e y d o i n g t h e ri g h t
20

thing?

O v e r si g h t b o d i e s.

A n d a g a i n , l a t e r I t h i n k A d v o ca t e

P r e t o ri u s w e w i l l d e a l w i t h t h i s i s s u e o f o v e r si g h t b o d i e s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
The

paper

continues

Ye s w e a r e co m i n g t h e r e n o w y e s.
under

the

head

Philosophy

of

I n t e l l i g e n c e . I f y o u t a l k a b o u t t h e n e e d t o e st a b l i s h a n d t h i s
i s i n 1 9 9 4 / 1 9 9 5 t h e n e e d t o e st a b l i s h a n e w c u l t u r e o f
Page 72 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
i n t e l l i g e n c e . A n d r e f e r e n ce i s m a d e t o t h e p ri o r i n t e l l i g e n c e
s e r v i ce s h a vi n g b e e n f o r m u l a t e d b y a m i n o ri t y g o v e r n m e n t
a n d i t w a s t h e a i m o f t h e w h i t e p a p e r t o r e d i r e ct t h e
i n t e l l i g e n c e c o m m u n i t y a n d st r u ct u r e s t o s e r vi n g t h e n a t i o n a l
i n t e r e st a s y o u s a y.

In paragraph 4 mention is made of

i n st i t u t i o n a l ch e c k s a n d b a l a n c e s.

Th a t i s a n i m p o rt a n t

c o m p o n e n t o f t h i s w h i t e p a p e r a n d o f y o u r e vi d e n c e a n d
p e r h a p s e vi d e n c e t o c o m e .

W h a t w e r e t h e i n st i t ut i o n a l

checks and balances introduced in the new dispensation and
10

why were they introduced?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
1 . T h e r e w a s t h e j o i n t st a n d i n g c o m m i t t e e o n i n t e l l i g e n c e
w h i c h i s a p a rl i a m e n t a r y b o d y c o m p ri s e d o f a l l t h e
p o l i t i c a l p a rt i e s r e p r e s e n t e d i n p a rl i a m e n t .

That was

o n e o f t h o se i n st i t u t i o n s.
2 . A n e w o ff i c e w a s cr e a t e d , t h e o ff i c e o f t h e I n s p e ct o r
General

which

ombudsman

became

and

a

or

is

facilitator

supposed
between

to

be

the

a g g ri e v e d

m e m b e r s o f t h e s e r v i ce b u t m o r e t h a n a n yt h i n g p u b l i c
20

a n d i n t e rf a c e o n i n t e l l i g e n c e .

Any member of the

p u b l i c, S o u t h A f ri c a n s c a n r e p o rt a n yt h i n g t h a t t h e y f i n d
w a n t i n g t o t h e o ff i c e o f t h e I n s p e ct o r G e n e r a l b e c a u s e
a s t h e t e r m o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h a t o ff i c e a r e cl e a rl y s p e l t
o u t , h e h a s g o t u n f e t t e re d a c c e s s t o a n yt h i n g t h a t i s
happening

in

a

p a rt i c u l a r

–

Page 73 of 294

in

the

intelligence

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
st ru ct u r e s.
T h o s e – I t h i n k t h o se a r e t h e t w o m o st i m p o rt a n t o v e r s i g h t
b o d i e s f o r t h e f u n ct i o n i n g o f i n t e l l i g e n ce t h a t w e re c re a t e d
p o st 1 9 9 4 .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
re c o r d

that

the

A n d C h a i r I m i g h t j u st p l a c e o n

apparent

State

S e c u ri t y

Service

have

e x p r e s s e d t h e i r w i l l i n g n e s s t o t e st i f y a n d c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e
c o m m i s si o n a n d o f c o u r s e w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e I n t e l l i g e n ce
S e r vi c e s i n t h e l a st p e ri o d c o v e r e d b y t h e co m m i s si o n ’s w o r k
10

i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w i l l t e st w h e t h e r t h e se p ri n ci p l e s c o n t a i n e d
in

this

white

paper

were

a ct u a l l y

c a r ri e d

out.

And

i m p o rt a n t l y w h e t h e r t h e o ve r si g h t b o d i e s p e rf o r m e d t h e i r
p r o p e r f u n ct i o n w h e t h e r t h a t b e t h e I n s p e ct o r G e n e r a l ’s
o ff i c e o r t h e p a rl i a m e n t a r y co m m i t t e e .

B u t t h a t i s b e yo n d

y o u r t i m e a s I u n d e r st a n d i t . Yo u w i l l t o u ch o n i t w i t h P a n 1 .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s.
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

intelligence.

Yo u

SC:

Ye s.

discussed

The
it

concept

A m b a s sa d o r

of

modern

b ri e f l y

this

m o r n i n g . T h e m o v e a w a y f r o m si m p l y p r o t e ct i n g t h e b o r d e r s
20

f ro m f o r e i g n i n v a d e r s a n d t h a t b e i n g t h e p u rp o s e o f i n t e n t
i n t e l l i g e n c e t o a m o r e m o d e rn c o n c e p t o f i n t e l l i g e n c e .
d e a l w i t h i n t h e l a st p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 9 2 .

It is

The forms of

i n t e l l i g e n c e , w h a t a r e a s i n t e l l i g e n c e m u st c o ve r ?

If you

w o u l d re f e r p l e a s e t o t h e l a st p a ra g r a p h u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 3 . 2
on page 92.
Page 74 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I s t h a t t h e o n e st a rt i n g w i t h

I n t e l l i g e n c e m a y b e g a t h e re d ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n r e a d i t i f t h a t i s m o r e c o n v e n i e n t ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s, n o I w o u l d p r e f e r t o r e a d
i t C h a i r. I t s a y s:
“I n t e l l i g e n c e m i g h t b e g a t h e r e d b y c o v e rt o r o v e rt m e a n s
f ro m a r a n g e o f s o u r c e s h u m a n a n d n o n - h u m a n , o p e n o r
10

s e cr e t .

I n a d d i t i o n , t h e r e i s a w i d e v a ri e t y o f i n t e l l i g e n c e

f o r m s i n cl u d i n g p o l i t i c a l i n t e l l i g e n c e , e c o n o m i c i n t e l l i g e n ce ,
t e c h n o l o g i c a l a n d s ci e n t i f i c i n t e l l i g e n ce , m i l i t a r y i n t e l l i g e n c e ,
c ri m i n a l i n t e l l i g e n c e a n d c o u n t e r i n t e l l i g e n ce . E a c h o f t h e s e
i s c h a r a ct e ri s e d b y i t s s e e ki n g o u t a n d p r o c e s si n g a c e rt a i n
t y p e o f i n f o r m a t i o n a n d m a y p l a c e d i ff e r e n t e m p h a si s o n t h e
methods to be used.”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

And then over the page Ambassador

t h e p a p e r t o u c h e s o n t h e d i st i n ct i o n w h i c h I b e l i e v e i s
i m p o rt a n t i n y o u r a p p ro a c h b e t w e e n i n t e l l i g e n ce o n t h e o n e
20

hand and policy making on the other hand and their need to
b e s o m e i n d e p e n d e n c e i n r e l a t i o n t o p o l i c y m a ki n g o n t h e
p a rt o f t h e i n t e l l i g e n c e st r u ct u re s.

Wo u l d yo u e xp l a i n t h a t

p l e a se t o t h e C h a i r?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
you

ca n n o t

separate

the

Ye s.

I ca n – I w i l l t r y.

two.

Page 75 of 294

Yo u

cannot

The –

separate

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
i n t e l l i g e n c e f r o m p o l i c y m a k e r s b e ca u s e o n e i n f o r m s t h e
o t h e r.

We g a t h e r i n t e l l i g e n ce t h r o u g h v a ri o u s m e a n s s e c r e t

or open.

We d o a n a l y si s i n d e p e n d e n t f r o m p o l i c y m a k e r s

a n d t h e n w e a l e rt t h e p o l i c y m a ke r s o f t h e i n t e l l i g e n c e t h a t
w e co l l e ct .

A n d t h i s i s a g e n e r a l n o rm t h e r e i s n o t h i n g

s e cr e t a b o u t i t C h a i r.
do it.

I t i s a g l o b a l a ct i v i t y.

A l l i n t e l l i g e n ce

A n d t h a t d y n a m i s m b e t w e e n t h e t w o i s v e r y, v e r y

c ri t i c a l a n d i f t h e re i s a d i sj u n ct u r e b e t w e e n t h e t w o t h e n
p r o b l e m s m i g h t s t a rt f o r t h e c o u n t ry.
10

And I think we will

come to this …
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : P a rt .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u m e n t i o n a t c o n s u l t a t i o n t h e d u t y

to tell the policy makers what they need to know not what
t h e y w a n t t o kn o w. P e rh a p s y o u c o u l d e x p a n d o n t h a t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

T h e p ri n ci p l e – t h e re i s a n

i n h e r e n t a c c e p t a b l e p ri n ci p l e t h a t yo u d o n o t t e l l p o l i c y
m a k e r s w h a t t h e y w a n t t o h e a r. Yo u t e l l t h e m w h a t y o u k n o w
not
20

what

they

want

to

kn o w

because

o t h e r w i se

if

you

g r a vi t a t e i n t o t h a t si t u a t i o n t h e n t h e p o l i c y m a k e r s a re g o i n g
t o b e d i ct a t i n g t e r m s t o yo u w h a t t o c o l l e ct a n d w h a t n o t t o
c o l l e ct w h i c h i s d a n g e r o u s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

We w i l l – w e w i l l g e t t o a

p r a ct i c a l e x a m p l e o f t h a t i n t e r - re l a t i o n s h i p i n d u e c o u r s e .
T h e p u rp o s e o f i n t e l l i g e n c e i n t h e w h i t e p a p e r i s s e t o u t a t
Page 76 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
p a r a g ra p h 3 . 2 . 3 a n d t h e f i r st b u l l e t – w e a r e st i l l o n p a g e 9 3
A m b a s sa d o r.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s I a m t h e re .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e f i r st b u l l e t . W h a t d o e s t h a t sa y ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : I t s a y s:
“O n e o f t h e p u r p o s e o f i n t e l l i g e n c e i s t o p ro vi d e t h e p o l i c y
m a k e r s t i m e o u s c ri t i c a l a n d s o m e t i m e s u n i q u e i n f o r m a t i o n t o
w a rn t h e m o f p o t e n t i a l ri s k s a n d d a n g e r s. ”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a re t h o s e o n l y m i l i t a r y ri s k s a n d
10

dangers?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Not at all they are not. Within
t h e c o n t e xt o f t h e p h i l o s o p h y o f t h i s n e w d i s p e n s a t i o n t h a t
w a s c r e a t e d y o u t a l ki n g o f b o t h y o u r t r a d i t i o n a l t h a t i s y o u r
s e c u ri t y m i l i t a r y ri s k s b u t a l s o y o u r h u m a n se c u ri t y ri s k s.
To d a y

if

I

may

j u st

ci t e

an

example?

C o vi d

19

the

C o ro n a vi r u s w i l l f a l l u n d e r t h e a m b i t o f y o u r h u m a n s e c u ri t y.
B e c a u s e i t i s n o t y o u r t ra d i t i o n a l s e c u ri t y.

I n t h e p a st

i n t e l l i g e n c e o ff i c e r s w o u l d s a y, n o , n o , n o t h a t i s t h e m a t t e r
f o r t h e H e a l t h D e p a rt m e n t b u t i n t h e n e w p h i l o s o p h y t h a t w a s
20

c re a t e d i n 1 9 9 4 t h o se r i s k s A d vo c a t e t h e y i n cl u d e h u m a n
s e c u ri t y ri s k s.

That is why I am making an example of the

p a n d e m i c t h a t m a k e s u s n o w t o w e a r t h e s e m a s k s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t a b o u t ri s k s t o t h e e c o n o m i c

w e l l b e i n g o f t h e c o u n t r y – e c o n o m i c ri s k s?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

That is why we are tasked –

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10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
w e j u st r e a d w e a r e t a s k e d t o l o o k a t p o l i t i ca l , e c o n o m i c,
a n d t e c h n o l o g i ca l .

L o o k a t a g a i n i f I m a ke a n e x a m p l e o f

C o vi d – C o vi d i s n o t o n l y a h e a l t h ri s k b u t i t i s a l s o a n
e c o n o m i c ri s k. G l o b a l e co n o m y i s g oi n g t o sh a t t e r s b e c a u s e
o f C o vi d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Now that suggests to me what we say in

t e r m s o f t h e s c o p e o f i n t e l l i g e n c e . T h a t s u g g e st s t o m e t h a t
i n t e l l i g e n c e o r a n i n t e l l i g e n c e st r u ct u r e w o u l d n e e d t o b e

10

populated

by

personnel

with

d i ff e r e n t

categories

of

e x p e rt i s e .

B e c a u s e f o r e x a m p l e I – I t a ke i t t h a t t h e s ki l l s

a n d e x p e rt i s e t h a t m a y b e r e q u i re d f o r t h e I n t e l l i g e n ce
S e r vi c e t o p i c k u p t h e t h re a t p o s e d b y C o vi d 1 9 a t a n e a rl y
st a g e a n d w a r n g o v e r n m e n t w o u l d re q u i r e ce rt a i n e x p e rt i s e
w h i c h m i g h t n o t n e ce s s a ri l y b e t h e s a m e a s t h e e x p e rt i s e
re q u i r e d t o p i c k u p m i l i t a r y d a n g e r s a n d s o o n . A m I c o r r e ct
in thinking that – that is what would be required?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

N o – ye s y o u a re c o r r e ct y e s

y o u a r e a b s o l u t e l y c o r r e ct C h a i r b u t a l s o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

W h e r e t h o s e s ki l l s a re n o t

there within intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Th e r e i s a s c o p e a n d a g a i n

t h e c o n st i t u t i o n p r o vi d e s f o r r e l a t i o n s h i p s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
Page 78 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

A ct u a l l y, I d o n o t kn o w a g a i n

b u t I t h i n k i n t h e C o n st i t u t i o n t h e r e i s – t h e r e i s a c h a p t e r
t h a t d e a l s w i t h t h e i m p o rt a n ce o f i n t e r -r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n
v a r i o u s s p h e r e s o f g o v e r n m e n t a n d v a r i o u s d e p a rt m e n t s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s j a t h e r e i s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Yo u s e e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

S o yo u – i n o t h e r w o r d s w h e r e yo u

d o n o t h a v e t h a t p a rt i c u l a r e x p e rt i s e w i t h i n i n t e l l i g e n c e s u c h
e x p e rt i s e
10

may

be

accessed

from

other

g o v e rn m e n t

d e p a rt m e n t s i f n e c e s s a r y ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : A b s o l u t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

B e c a u se t h e y a l r e a d y h a v e

the number 1.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: But also, they have the budget
to do that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

Which intelligence did not

h a ve .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: At the time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y.
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

If

we

could

go

over

the

page

A m b a s sa d o r t o t h e h e a d i n g To w a rd s a N a t i o n a l S e c u ri t y
Page 79 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
D o ct r i n e , p a g e 9 4 .

A g a i n , w e h a v e t o u c h e d o n t h i s e a rl i e r

t h i s p a rt o f t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e W h i t e P a p e r d e a l s w i t h t h e s h i f t
f ro m t h e t ra d i t i o n a l a n d n a r r o w a p p r o a c h t o s e c u r i t y t o a
m o r e c o m p r e h e n si v e a p p r o a ch t o s e c u ri t y.

P e r h a p s yo u

c o u l d e xp l a i n o r re a d o n t o t h e r e c o r d t h e t h i rd p a ra g r a p h
o n w a r d s.

T h e t h i rd , f o u rt h a n d f i f t h p a r a g r a p h s a t p a g e 9 4 .

D o y o u h a v e p a g e 9 4 t h e re ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : A n d i f I a m t h e r e – I a m t h e re
C h a i r.
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t h e h e a d i n g To w a r d s a N e w

N a t i o n a l S e cu ri t y D o ct r i n e .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s. I t s a y s:
“I n r e c e n t y e a r s t h e r e h a s b e e n a s h i f t a w a y f r o m a n a r r o w
a n d a l m o st e x cl u si v e m i l i t a r y st r a t e g i c a p p r o a c h t o s e c u ri t y.
S e c u ri t y i n t h e m o d e r n i d i o m s h o u l d b e u n d e r st o o d i n m o re
c o m p r e h e n si v e t e rm s t o c o r r e sp o n d w i t h n e w re a l t i e s si n ce
t h e e n d o f t h e b i p o l a r co l d w a r e r a .

T h e s e re a l i t i e s i n cl u d e

t h e i m p o rt a n c e o f n o n - m i l i t a r y e l e m e n t s o f s e c u ri t y.

The

c o m p l e x n a t u r e o f t h r e a d s t o st a b i l i t y a n d d e ve l o p m e n t a n d
20

t h e r e a l i t y o f i n t e r n a t i o n a l i n t e r- d e p e n d e n c e .

Th i s m o r e

c o m p r e h e n si v e a p p r o a c h t o se c u r i t y i s a l s o e n d o r s e d b y
organisations like the UN and the OAU.

T h i s a p p r o a ch i s

i n t e r a l i a r e f l e ct e d i n t h e K a m p a l a d o c u m e n t o f t h e O A U o f
1 9 M a y 1 9 9 1 w h e re a p ro c e s s w a s se t o u t i n m o t i o n kn o w n
a s t h e co n f e re n c e o n se c u ri t y, st a b i l i t y, d e ve l o p m e n t a n d
Page 80 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
cooperation in Africa.

CSSDEA this purpose – the purpose

o f t h i s d o c u m e n t w a s p r o vi d i n g a c o m p r e h e n si v e f r a m e w o r k
for

A f ri c a ’s

accelerated

Security

and

continental

Stability

e co n o m i c

and

measures

i n t e g ra t i o n

or

for

so ci a l

e c o n o m i c t r a n sf o r m a t i o n . ”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e l a st p a r a g ra p h p l e a s e ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“ T h e i n t e r -m i n g l i n g a n d t r a n s n a t i o n a l c h a r a ct e r o f m o d e r n
d a y s e cu ri t y i s s u e s f u rt h e rm o r e i n d i c a t e t h a t s o l u t i o n s t o t h e
10

p r o b l e m s o f i n s e c u r i t y a r e b e y o n d t h e d i r e ct c o n t ro l o f a n y
si n g l e c o u n t r y a n d c a n n o t b e r e ct i f i e d b y p u r e l y m i l i t a r y
m e a n s.

Th e i n t e r n a t i o n a l se c u ri t y a g e n d a i s s h i f t i n g t o t h e

f u l l r a n g e o f p o l i t i c a l , e c o n o m i c, m i l i t a r y, s o ci a l , r e l i g i o u s,
technological,

e t h n i c,

and

ethical

s e c u ri t y i s s u e s a ro u n d t h e w o rl d .

f a ct o r s

that

sh a p e s

Th e m a i n t h r e a t t o t h e

w e l l b e i n g o f i n d i vi d u a l s a n d t h e i n t e r e st o f t h e n a t i o n s
a cr o s s t h e w o rl d d o n o t p ri m a r i l y c o m e f r o m a n e i g h b o u ri n g
army but from other internal and external challenges such as
e c o n o m i c co l l a p s e , o v e r- p o p u l a t i o n , m a s s m i g ra t i o n , e t h n i c
20

sl a v e r y, p o l i t i c a l o p p r e s si o n , t e rr o r i s m , c ri m e a n d d i s e a se t o
m e n t i o n b u t a f e w. ”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s t h a t i s e t h n i c ri v a l ry, I t h i n k.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : E t h n i c ri va l r y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
there.

Right.

J u st t o cl a ri f y w h a t w a s sa i d

A n d t h e n j u st t h e l a st s e n t e n c e t o o ve r t h e p a g e
Page 81 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
beginning:
“ C o n s e q u e n t l y, s e c u r i t y i s d e f i n e d l e s s i n m i l i t a r y t e r m s a n d
m o r e i n t h e b r o a d e r se n s e o f f r e e d o m f r o m v u l n e r a b i l i t y o f
m o d e r n s o ci e t y. ”
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s.

In other words – in the

w o rd s o f a n A m e r i c a n s c h o l a r n e w t h i n ki n g o n se c u ri t y h a s
t h e f o l l o w i n g k e y f e a t u r e s w h i c h s h o u l d f o rm a n i n t e r – a n
i n t e g r a l p a rt o f t h e p h i l o s o p h i c a l o u t l o o k o n i n t e l l i g e n c e .
1 . S e c u ri t y i s c o n c e i v e d a s a h o l i st i c p h e n o m e n o n a n d
10

i n c o r p o ra t e s

political,

s o ci a l ,

economic

and

e n vi r o n m e n t a l i s s u e s.
2 . T h e o b j e ct i v e s o f s e c u ri t y p o l i c y g o b e y o n d a c h i e vi n g
an

a b s e n ce

d e m o c r a cy,

of

war

to

encompass

s u st a i n a b l e

economic

the

pursuit

of

development

and

to

advance

the

se c u ri t y n o n - a g g r e s si o n

and

s o ci a l j u st i c e .
3. Regional

se c u ri t y

p r i n ci p l e s o f

p o l i ci e s

c o l l e ct i v e

seek

p e a c e f u l s e t t l e m e n t o f d i s p u t e s. ”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

Ye s.

T h e e st a b l i s h m e n t o f t h e

i n t e l l i g e n c e st r u ct u r e s i n 1 9 9 4 a n d 1 9 9 5 w e r e t h e y i n t e n d e d
t o a c c o r d w i t h t h e s e p ri n ci p l e s ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

A b s o l u t e l y.

Absolutely they

w e re .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e r e o n – o n p a g e 9 7 A m b a s s a d o r a
c e rt a i n b a si c p ri n ci p l e s o f i n t e l l i g e n c e w h i c h y o u w i l l t o u c h
Page 82 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
o n i n y o u r e vi d e n c e a n d c e rt a i n l y f u rt h e r e vi d e n c e m a y t o u c h
o n t h e s e p ri n ci p l e s a re n a m e d b u t n o t d e s cri b e d i n a n y d e t a i l
t h e y d e s c ri b e l a t e r i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h a t p a g e .

What were

t h o se p ri n ci p l e s ?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

The

f i r st

p ri n ci p l e

i n t e g r a t e d n a t i o n a l i n t e l l i g e n ce ca p a b i l i t y.

is

an

I n t e g ra t e d .

It

a l w a y s – t h a t w o r d i n t e g ra t e d y o u w i l l a l w a y s s e e a n d h e a r i t
p o st 1 9 9 4 .

Th e p ri n ci p l e o f d e p a rt m e n t a l c a p a b i l i t i e s t h a t i s

w h e n w e w e r e m a ki n g t h e e x a m p l e o f i n t e l l i g e n c e a n d h e a l t h
10

a s a n e xa m p l e . P ri n ci p l e o f p o l i t i c a l n e u t r a l i t y. A b so l u t e l y –
a b so l u t e l y c ri t i c a l i n a d e m o c r a t i c c o u n t r y f o r a d e m o c r a t i c
intelligence

s e r vi c e .

Intelligence

o ff i c e r s

o p e r a t i v e s m u st b e p o l i t i c a l n e u t r a l i t y.
neutral.

–

I n t e l l i g e n ce

I mean politically

I cannot because I am a member of the ANC use

t h a t i n m y d a y t o d a y f u n ct i o n .

Because that might be –

m i g h t b e t o t h e d e t ri m e n t o f o t h e r p o l i t i c a l p a rt i e s.

That is

what that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f t h e p e o p l e o f S o u t h A f ri ca ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

And of the people of South

A f ri c a . T h e p e o p l e o f S o u t h A f ri c a , t h e c i t i ze n s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR
intelligence.

MAQETUKA:

A re

the

main

targets

for

T h a t i s w h y C h a i r i t i s a l so i m p o rt a n t t h a t

i n t e l l i g e n c e h a s m o v e d – m u st m o v e a w a y f ro m t h a t cl o a k
and

dagger

thing

where

you

wear

Page 83 of 294

dark

g l a s se s

and

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
o v e r c o a t s.

Because it does not work anymore.

going to get what you want.

Yo u a r e n o t

B e ca u s e e v e r yt h i n g i s o n y o u r

c e l l p h o n e t o d a y. Yo u t h i n k y o u h a v e i n f o r m a t i o n o n l y t o f i n d
o u t t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o a r e f a r b e t t e r o ff t h a n y o u .

Th e r e

are a number of papers that have been written Chair on this
m a t t e r. N e w m o d e l s f o r i n t e l l i g e n c e a n d I p r o m i s e d …
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l i t w o u l d b e g o o d t o g e t s o m e o f

t h o se .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

Ye s w e h a v e d i s c u s s e d t h a t C h a i r

and we will attempt to put together a bundle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d p e r h a p s w e w i l l b e a s si st e d b y

f u rt h e r w i t n e s s e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: In that regard.
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

But

there

c e rt a i n l y

is

valuable

information there
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Which may inform your findings and

re c o m m e n d a t i o n s p a rt i c u l a rl y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

G i ve n

the

i m p o rt a n t

ro l e

of

i n t e l l i g e n c e i n t h e d e m o c ra t i c s o ci e t y p r o p e r l y m a n n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Wo u l d i t b e c o r r e ct t h e n A m b a s s a d o r
Page 84 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
b a se d o n w h a t y o u s a i d a m i n u t e a g o t o s a y t h a t t h e
p r i n ci p l e o f p e o p l e f i r st a l so a p p l i e s t o t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e
Community?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : A b s o l u t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : A b s o l u t e l y. A b so l u t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e i n t e r e st o f t h e p e o p l e f i r st .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: It has to be.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: It has to be.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: I will deal with it later Chair to
i l l u st ra t e m y o w n p e r s o n a l p r e f e r e n c e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

And why I decided to come

a n d p r e se n t m y s e l f t o t h i s c o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I w a s l o o ki n g a t m y s e l f a s a

S o u t h A f ri c a n f i r st .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Because

yo u

have

been

m a n d a t e d t o l o o k a t t h e s e i s s u e s o f a l l e g a t i o n s o f st a t e
c a p t u r e , c o r r u p t i o n , f ra u d i n t h e p u b l i c s e ct o r i n cl u d i n g st a t e
o r g a n s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
Page 85 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

H o w c o u l d I t h e n s a y, n o t h i s

d o e s n o t a ff e ct m e b e c a u se I a m i n i n t e l l i g e n c e . U n l e s s y o u
do

not

u n d e r st a n d

the

philosophical

intelligence has been served up.

b a si s

that

yo u r

Hence some of us and I

t h i n k I w i l l s p e a k o n b e h a l f o f N j e n j e a n d S h a i k.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : We r e s p o n d e d t o t h e c a l l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

d u t i e s.

B e c a u se w e u n d e r st a n d o u r

We u n d e r st a n d o u r f u n ct i o n s a s I n t e l l i g e n c e .

And

w e a r e n o t a p o l o g i si n g t o a n y b o d y f o r h a vi n g b e i n g i n t h e
Intelligence but it is Intelligence that is concerned with the
w e l l b e i n g o f t h e p e o p l e a n d t h e c o u n t r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: That is the – that is the ? of it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

T h a n k yo u .

Ye s, n o t h a n k y o u .

I

t h i n k so t h a t i s ve r y i m p o rt a n t .

20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e n e xt p ri n ci p l e , t h e f o u rt h b u l l e t

on

talks

that

page.

It

about

L e g i sl a t i ve

S a n ct i o n ,

A c c o u n t a b i l i t y a n d P a rl i a m e n t a r y C o n t r o l .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : A n d p a rl i a m e n t a r y c o n t r o l .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:
that

That
were

one

up.

of

t h o se

o v e r si g h t s

m e c h a n i sm s

s a n ct i o n s.

Hence, we have as a country a Joint Standing
Page 86 of 294

set

is

L e g i sl a t i v e

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
Committee on Intelligence.
A c c o u n t a b i l i t y a n d p a rl i a m e n t a r y o v e r s i g h t .

We c a n b e

c a l l e d a s I n t e l l i g e n ce a t a n y t i m e b y t h e J o i n t S t a n d i n g
C o m m i t t e e o n I n t e l l i g e n c e o n a n yt h i n g .
A n d w e a r e g o i n g . . . I a m g o i n g i l l u st r a t e a t t h e s a m e
time.

W h e n y o u a r e c o n f ro n t e d w i t h c h a l l e n g e s w i t h i n y o u r

o w n d o m a i n , yo u c a n r e so rt t o t h e m a n d s e e k f o r h e l p . A n d
later we are going to talk of how we try to do that.

We l l , a s

to whether it did help.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

We w e re s a yi n g d u ri n g o u r

l i b e r a t i o n s, a l s o w i t h yo u r l e g a l t e a m , w h a t i s t h e u s e o f t h i s
b e a u t i f u l c o n st i t u t i o n t h a t w e h a ve , t h e s e st r o n g i n st i t u t i o n s
of oversight that we have, if it does not help the people of
S o u t h A f ri c a , t h e p e o p l e o f t h e r e g i o n , t h e p e o p l e o f t h e
c o n t i n e n t a n d t h e w o rl d ? W h a t a r e t h e y o f u s e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , I a m v e r y h a p p y t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o
deal more with those issues ambassador because, as I have
s a i d p a rt i c u l a rl y, p a rt o f w h a t I b e l i e v e t h i s C o m m i s si o n m u st
20

l o o k a t i s, w h e n c e rt a i n t h i n g s w e r e h a p p e n i n g i n t h e c o u n t r y
a n d t h e re a r e b o d i e s w h i c h h a d b e e n s e t u p t o e x e r ci s e
o v e r si g h t , w h e r e w e re t h e y ? W h a t w e re t h e y d o i n g ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Should they not come up?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
Page 87 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

And

tell

the

nation

through

this

C o m m i s si o n t h a t t h e se w e r e o u r o b l i g a t i o n s. Th i s i s w h a t w e
did.

Or if they did not have enough resources or enough

m e c h a n i s m s, s h o u l d t h e y n o t co m e a n d t e l l u s ?
O r s h o u l d t h e y n o t sa y, “ We h a v e e x a m i n e d o u r o w n
re c o r d s a g a i n st w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d a n d w e a re p r e p a r e d t o
s a y t o t h e n a t i o n , w e h a v e f a l l e n s h o rt i n t h e f o l l o w i n g
re s p e ct . ”
A n d w e s a y, i n o r d e r t o m a k e s u re t h a t i n t h e f u t u r e t h i s
10

ki n d o f i n st i t u t i o n o r b o d y n e v e r f a l l s s h o rt i n t h i s w a y, t h i s i s
w h a t w e s u g g e st t h a t y o u p u t i n p l a c e .
Because we have got to be truthful.

We h a v e g o t t o b e

h o n e st , a n d I a m h o p i n g t h a t s o m e o f t h e l e a d e r s f r o m
d i ff e r e n t i n st i t u t i o n s w i l l n o t j u st l o o k a t c o m i n g t o t h e
C o m m i s si o n a s a p l a c e w h e re t h e y m u st d e f e n d t h i s o r t h a t
o r d e f e n d t h e m s e l v e s.
B u t w h e r e t h e y w o u l d s a y, w e b e l i e ve t h a t w e a r e
accountable.

We b e l i e v e t h a t , f r o m t i m e t o t i m e , t h a t w e

m u st l o o k a t h o w w e h a v e p e rf o rm e d .
20

And in this case, we have looked at how we have
p e rf o rm e d o v e r X n u m b e r o f y e a r s.

We a r e n o t g o i n g t o s a y

w e h a v e d o n e e v e r yt h i n g p r o p e rl y.
H e re
accepted

is

where

we

r e s p o n si b i l i t y

have
but

gone
we

wrong

also

want

and
to

we

have

make

a

c o n t ri b u t i o n a s t o w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e t o m a k e s u re t h a t t h i s
Page 88 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
does not happen again.
S o I a m v e r y h a p p y t h a t f r o m w h a t yo u h a v e sa i d , I c a n
s e e t h a t y o u w i l l b e d e a l i n g w i t h t h i s v e r y i m p o rt a n t i s s u e s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

T h e o t h e r p ri n ci p l e i s t h e

P ri n ci p l e o f B a l a n c e B e t w e e n S e c r e c y a n d Tr a n s p a r e n cy.

I

think it speaks for itself that one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

P e r h a p s. . . w e l l , i t i s d e a l t w i t h l a t e r

but perhaps now is the time to deal with it.
C l a s si f i c a t i o n a n d D e cl a s si f i c a t i o n .

T h e P ri n ci p l e o f

And why the process of

d e cl a s si f i ca t i o n s h o u l d n o t se r v e u l t e r i o r m o t i v e s.

Perhaps

y o u co u l d t o u ch o n t h a t ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : [ l a u g h s] Ye s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A s yo u h a v e t o l d u s.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

I

thought

that

Advocate

P r e t o ri u s w o u l d b e a n e xp e rt o n t h i s n o w t h r o u g h e x p e ri e n c e
o f h i s e n g a g e m e n t i n t h e C o m m i s si o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
AMBASSADOR
cl a s si f i c a t i o n

MAQUETUKA:

and

n o r m s g l o b a l l y.

Ye s.

d e cl a s si f i ca t i o n .

The
There

question
are

of

st a n d a r d

T h e y a r e n o t t h e sa m e , b u t n o r m s w h e r e

p e ri o d i c a l l y w h a t w a s s e cr e t m u st b e d e cl a s si f i e d s o t h a t t h e
p u b l i c ca n h a v e a c c e s s.
Page 89 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
T h e sa m e t i m e , a n d i t m u st b e a c c e p t e d , a n d t h e p u b l i c
m u st a c c e p t i t , t h e p u b l i c c a n n o t g e t e ve r yt h i n g t h a t t h e
I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r vi c e s h a v e .

O t h e r w i s e , i t w i l l j e o p a rd i se t h e

work of people, operatives on the field.
T h a t m u st b e a c c e p t e d , b u t t h e r e h a s t o b e a b a l a n c e .
T h a t i s w h y e v e n i n t e rm s o f t h e cl a s si f i c a t i o n a n d t h e
d e cl a s si f i ca t i o n . . .
P r e s e n t l y, I a m n o t i n a p o si t i o n t o c o m m e n t a s t o h o w
e ff e ct i ve i s t h i s cl a s si f i c a t i o n a n d d e cl a s si f i c a t i o n w i t h i n t h e
10

I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r vi c e s p r e s e n t l y.
B u t p e rh a p s w h e n t h e y c o m e h e r e , t h e y c a n b e i n a
p o si t i o n – a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o b l a m e p e o p l e a n d a c c u se
p e o p l e o f d o i n g o r n o t d o i n g a n yt h i n g , o n l y t o f i n d o u t t h a t
t h e r e i s a l o t o f w o r k t h a t t h e y a re d o i n g .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s.

I m i g h t j u st p o i n t o u t t h a t i n

y o u r st a t e m e n t y o u m e n t i o n t h a t y o u h a v e c e rt a i n d o c u m e n t s
w h i c h a r e cl a s si f i e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

. . . a t v a ri o u s l e v e l s, f r o m co n f i d e n t i a l

t o se c r e t .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Now that has with the cooperation of

t h e d e p a rt m e n t n o w h a s b e e n d e cl a s si f i e d .

So we will

p r o vi d e t h e m i n d u e co u r s e .
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

Ja ,

Page 90 of 294

that

has

to

be

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a p p r e ci a t e d .
to

those

T h a t h a s t o b e a p p r e ci a t e d a n d I a m s u r e k e y

people

would

be

the

Mi n i st e r

of

I n t e l l i g e n ce

b e ca u s e I w o u l d h a ve e x p e ct e d t h a t sh e w o u l d b e t h e o n e
w h o h a v e h a d si g h t o f t h a t .
T h a t i s e n c o u r a g i n g f o r t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s si o n b u t
a l s o C h a i r j u st t o m o v e a l i t t l e b i t j u st a st e p b a c k j u st f o r
one second.
A s I a m s u re A d v o c a t e E r a sm u s w i l l l e a d m e .

I w a s. . .

t h e r e w a s a s e n se o f co m f o rt i n m e y e st e r d a y w h e n I s a w t h e
10

re s p o n s e s o f s o m e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e To p 6 o f t h e r u l i n g
p a rt y. A p o si t i v e m o o d w h e re o p e n l y t h e y s a y t o yo u “ N o , w e
a g r e e w i t h w h a t . . . Ye s, t h e s e c o l l e a g u e s o r co m ra d e s a s w e
c a l l o u r s e l v e s, t h e y d i d m e e t u s ”.
And, of course, there is also a document, I think in the
p a c ka g e ,

where the former Comm as in

commissars of

u M k h o n t o w e S i z w e , c o n st i t u t e d t h e m s e l v e s a n d w e n t t o t h e
To p 6 t o a d d r e s s t h e v e r y i s s u e s t h a t a re b e d e vi l l i n g t h e
c o u n t r y.
A n d t h e To p 6 , m e m b e r s o f t h e To p 6 , a l l . . . a n d I h a v e t o
20

s a y, I a p p r e ci a t e t h a t m o v e b y t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , I t h i n k i t i s i m p o rt a n t . T h e re i s a n e e d
o n a l l o f u s, t h e r e i s a n e e d o n l e a d e r s i n s o ci e t y, l e a d e r s i n
the

c o u n t ry,

leaders

of

d i ff e r e n t

i n st i t u t i o n s

and

organisations to seek to deal with these issues in a very
h o n e st m a n n e r a n d i n a m a n n e r t h a t i s c o n st ru ct i v e a n d i n a
Page 91 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
m a n n e r t h a t i s p r e p a r e d . . . t h a t s h o w s p r e p a r e d n e s s.
T h a t t h e r e i s n o cl o si n g o f m i n d t o s a y, “ N o , w e w i l l
n e ve r a c c e p t t h i s o r t h a t ”.

B u t t o e n g a g e w i t h y o u t o s a y,

“L e t u s se e w h a t h a p p e n e d .

Let us see how it happened.

L e t u s se e w h e r e t h e r e m i g h t h a v e . . . t h i n g s m i g h t n o t h a v e
h a p p e n e d t h e w a y t h e y s h o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d ”.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

Then...

sh a l l

I

continue

a d vo c a t e ?
ADV
10

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

We l l ,

the

f u rt h e r

p r i n ci p l e s a r e

l a rg e l y s e l f - e x p l a n a t o r y a n d w e w i l l c o m e b a c k t o t h e m i n
d u e c o u r s e b u t p e r h a p s y o u c o u l d j u st m e n t i o n t h e m f o r t h e
s a k e o f c o m p l e t e n e s s.
AMBASSADOR
P ri n ci p l e

of

MAQUETUKA:

the

Separation

Ye s,
of

then

Intelligence

there
from

is

the

Policy

Making.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : We h a ve d e a l t w i t h t h a t , y e s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

N o w t h i s i s c ri t i c a l a n d i t i s

n o t j u st w o r d s. I t st i l l n e e d s t o b e u n p a c k e d t h i s p ri n ci p l e . I
h a ve g o t m y o w n i n t e r p r e t a t i o n o f t h i s p r i n c i p l e o f w h a t i t
20

means and how it should be implemented and how it was
supposed to have been implemented.
A n d w e a r e co n s t a n t l y, a s i n d i vi d u a l s, i n t e r a ct i n g w i t h
t h i s p ri n ci p l e i n f o rm e d b y o n e e l e m e n t t h a t w e a l w a y s a s k
a n d I t h i n k. . . n o t I t h i n k, i n A m b a s s a d o r S h a i k ’s e vi d e n ce h e
flagged it and he asked:

“ D o e s t h e c o u n t r y n e e d a m i n i st r y

Page 92 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
f o r i n t e l l i g e n ce s e r vi c e ? D o e s i t n e e d a m i n i st e r ? ”
O t h e r w i s e , a t c e rt a i n p o i n t s i n t i m e a n d l i f e o f t h e
g o ve r n m e n t o f t h e c o u n t ry, y o u a r e g o i n g t o f i n d a d i s c o r d o n
t h a t p ri n ci p l e w h e r e a p o l i c y m a k e r w h o w o u l d w a n t t o
i n t e rf e re i n t o t h e w o r k t h a t t h e I n t e l l i g e n ce i s s u p p o s e d t o b e
d o i n g i n d e p e n d e n t f ro m h i m o r h e r.

We w i l l c o m e a l s o t o

t h a t d u ri n g m y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , I d i d w a n t t o sa y, a t so m e st a g e , I d o
w a n t t o h e a r yo u r i n t e r p r e t a t i o n .
10

S o . . . a t t h e ri g h t st a g e , M r

P r e t o ri u s, I w i l l l e a v e yo u t o d o t h a t .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a l so , a n d I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w i l l d e a l
w i t h i t i n y o u r st a t e m e n t , i n y o u r a ff i d a vi t .

Also, I would be

h a p p y i f y o u a r e a b l e t o e n ri ch m e i n t e r m s o f i n t e rn a t i o n a l l y.
W h a t i s t h e n o r m , m a yb e i n d e m o c r a t i c so ci e t i e s i n
re g a r d t o t h i s P ri n ci p l e o f S e p a r a t i n g I n t e l l i g e n c e f r o m P o l i c y
M a k i n g ? B u t y o u c a n d e a l w i t h i t a t t h e ri g h t t i m e .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : T h a n k y o u . I w i l l C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

AMBASSADOR
P ri n ci p l e

of

MAQUETUKA:
E ff e ct i v e

A d m i n i st r a t i o n .
a d m i n i st r a t i o n .

And

Management,

E ff e ct i v e

management,

is

the

there

is

O r g a n i sa t i o n
organisation

the
and
and

That spins through now the roles of a DG,

w h o i s t h e t h i r d o f t h e d e p a rt m e n t .
who

then

third

of

policy

and

T h e r o l e o f a m i n i st e r
policy

Page 93 of 294

m a ki n g

and

the

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a d m i n i st r a t i o n .
W h a t s y st e m s d o y o u p u t i n p l a c e s o t h a t t h e r e a r e n o
w r o n g d o i n g s t h a t c a n h a p p e n w i t h i n t h e o r g a n i sa t i o n ? A n d I
t h i n k A d v o c a t e P r e t o ri u s, y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e d e a l i n g w i t h
t h a t m a t t e r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

Because there would be

e x a m p l e s w h e r e w e s h o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e p ro b l e m s w i t h t h i s
e ff e ct i ve m a n a g e m e n t a n d a d m i n i st ra t i o n i n t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n .
10

I a m t h i n ki n g o f t h e e x a m p l e w o u l d b e PA N 1 t h a t I k n o w y o u
will be dealing with.
Then

there

Intelligence

is

and

Structure.

the

Liaison

Principle
with

of

Coordination

Departmental

of

Intelligence

Earlier on, I talked of the structures that were

formed in 1994.
One

of

coordination

them
is

that

the

has

National

got

that

responsibility

Intelligence

of

Coordinating

Committee what is called NICOC which is administered by a
coordinator for intelligence but also the coordinator for
20

intelligence chair another structure that is called the NICOC
Principles

and

co-opted

departments

into

the

work

of

Intelligence.
And the principle is a simple one that South Africa’s
new dispensation, intelligence dispensation, is premised on
coordinated intelligence.
Page 94 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
One department... it is dangerous for one department to
take a product to the president or to cabinet which has not
been checked by other departments.
Now as what is called Strategic Intelligence.

Now it is

that coordinated package but the system also allows, of
course, for operational ones which does not need to be
coordinated.
Then the Principle of an Ethical Code of Conduct to
Govern Performance and Activities of Individual Members of
10

the Intelligence Service.

That is command and control

which would lead to accountability based on ethics.
So the first question that should be asked:
have... are we ethical?
does it mean?

Do we understand this?

Do we
And what

A n d n o t o n l y, w h a t d o e s i t m e a n , b u t h o w i t

is implemented?
And that the oversight bodies are supposed to be the
arbitrators over that control because they should be the
o n e s w h o w o u l d s a y, “ N o , n o , n o .

There is no control here.

These people are law onto themselves.
20

These people are

involved in this and this and this and this”.
And if you have unethical people, then you will have an
unethical intelligence service.

If you have an unethical

intelligence service, that intelligence service can create a
president in the country or can cause mayhem.
So it is absolutely important.
Page 95 of 294

I will pause there.

Or

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
should I, advocate?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u . I f w e c o u l d g o t o t h e n e xt
p a g e w h e r e t h e r e a r e t h r e e p ri n ci p l e s s e t o u t t h a t u n d e r a
d e m o c r a t i c g o v e r n m e n t , t h o se a g e n ci e s e n t r u st e d w i t h t h e
t a s k o f i n t e l l i g e n c e w o r k.

S h o u l d i t re a d “t o e x e c u t e t h e i r

t a s k s i n t h e f o l l o w i n g m a n n e r” ?

What were those three

points?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
paper
10

says

C h a i r,

they

Th e f i r st p o i n t a s t h e w h i t e

should

except

as

p ri m a r y

the

a u t h o ri t y o f t h e d e m o c r a t i c i n st i t u t i o n s o f s o ci e t y.
A n d t h o s e c o n st i t u t i o n a l b o d i e s m a n d a t e d b y s o ci e t y t o
p a rt i ci p a t e i n a n d / o r m o n i t o r t h e d e t e r m i n a t i o n o f i n t e l l i g e n ce
p r i o ri t i e s. O n e .
T h e y s h o u l d a c c e p t t h a t n o ch a n g e s w i l l b e m a d e t o t h e
d o ct ri n e s, st r u ct u r e s a n d p r o ce d u re s o f t h e N a t i o n a l S e c u ri t y
f ra m e w o r k

unless

approved

of

by

the

people

and

their

re p r e s e n t a t i v e b o d i e s.
T h e y s h o u l d b i n d t h e m s e l v e s t o b e c o n t r a ct e n t e re d i n t o
w i t h t h e e l e ct o r a t e t h r o u g h a m u t u a l l y a g r e e d s e t o f n o r m s
20

a n d c o d e o f c o n d u ct .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Pause.

D o e s t h e f a ct t h a t t h e

I n t e l l i g e n c e C o m m u n i t y o p e ra t e s, a t l e a st t o a d e g r e e , i n a
c o n f i d e n t i a l o r s e c re t f r a m e w o r k, a ff e ct t h e n e e d f o r a st ri ct
c o d e o f c o n d u ct ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: Come again advocate?
Page 96 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e n e e d f o r a c o d e o f co n d u ct , i s

t h a t a ff e ct e d b y t h e f a ct t h a t i n t e l l i g e n c e o p e r a t i ve s o p e r a t e
l a rg e l y i n s e cr e t ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I n p a rt l y y e s a n d p a rt l y n o . I
a m sa y i n g n o a n d I t h i n k. . . I l i k e u si n g t h e p h r a s e . . . t h e
j a rg o n o f t h e A m e r i ca n s w h e n t h e y t a l k a b o u t p e o p l e w h o
d r a f t e d t h e s e d o c u m e n t s. T h e y c a l l t h e m t h e “f r a m e r s ”, “ o u r
f ra m e r s ”.
But the people who drafted these white papers and this
10

l e g i sl a t i o n , o n e o f t h e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t t h e y h a d i n m i n d i n
a n i n f o rm e d , o f co u r s e , b y t h e h i st o r y o f t h e c o u n t r y.
We k n o w t h a t i n t e l l i g e n ce a n d s e c u r i t y s e r vi ce s d u r i n g
a p a rt h e i d t i m e w e r e a h a n d u n t o t h e m s e l v e s.

That is why

t h e c r e a t i o n o f t h e V l a k p l a s i e s, y o u r K o e v o e t ’s, y o u r w h a t ,
w h a t , w h a t . T h e y w e re n o t a c co u n t a b l e t o a n y b o d y.
T h e y h a d t h a t i n m i n d C h a i r.
w h y I a m s a yi n g y e s o r n o .

A n d o f c o u r se , . . . t h a t i s

B e c a u s e i f e v e r yt h i n g i s l o c k e d

u p i n v a u l t s, p e o p l e w i l l n o t kn o w w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g a n d i t i s
n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r e v e r yt h i n g t o b e s e cr e t i n I n t e l l i g e n ce .
20

No.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r m y a n d yo u r

u n d e r st a n d i n g o f Mr P r e t o ri u s ’ q u e st i o n i s t h e s a m e b u t I
u n d e r st o o d h i m t o b e a s ki n g t h e q u e st i o n w h e t h e r t h e f a ct
t h a t I n t e l l i g e n c e w h o o p e r a t e s l a r g e l y i n s e c re t , j u st i f y t h e
p r o p o si t i o n t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o co d e o f c o n d u c t .
Page 97 of 294

That

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
w a s m y u n d e r st a n d i n g .

Wa s t h a t y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g a s

well?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: No, it was not.
CHAIRPERSON: No?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

B e c a u se t h e r e i s a c o d e o f

c o n d u ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y M r P r e t o ri u s, I m i su n d e r st a n d .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Oh, perhaps I should put it a little

m o r e b l u n t l y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: [laugh] Ja.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I f I m a y ?
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t t h e n e e d f o r a co d e o f c o n d u ct

is even greater where people operate under a cover of
s e cr e c y. T h a t i s t h e p r o p o s i t i o n I a m p u t t i n g t o y o u .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

The need... come again,

come again, come again?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e n e e d f o r a c o d e o f c o n d u ct

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

. . . a n d a st ri ct c o d e o f c o n d u c t w h i c h

i s e n f o r c e d , i s g re a t e r w h e r e p e o p l e o p e ra t e o u t o f t h e
public eye.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 98 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t t h a t i s s o m e t h i n g w e c a n d e b a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

We l l , l e t h i m s a y s o m e t h i n g b e ca u s e

m a y b e . . . h i s a n s w e r t h a t h e g a v e y o u e a rl i e r o n , w a s n o t a n
a n s w e r I e x p e ct e d f ro m h i m . T h a t i s w h y I a m f o l l o w i n g u p .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e t e l l yo u w h a t I a m h e a ri n g .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O n m y u n d e r st a n d i n g o f h i s q u e s t i o n a s I

a rt i c u l a t e d i t , n a m e l y, w h e t h e r t h e f a ct t h a t I n t e l l i g e n ce
o p e r a t e s s e c r e t l y, j u st i f i e s t h a t t h e r e sh o u l d b e n o n e e d f o r a
c o d e o f c o n d u ct .
S o h a vi n g u n d e r s t o o d t h e q u e st i o n i n t h a t m a y, w h i c h
m a y h a v e n o t b e e n c o rr e ct , b u t h i s f o l l o w - u p s e e m s t o
s u g g e st t h a t m a y h a ve b e e n co r re ct .
Yo u r a n s w e r t o s a y y e s o r n o , I d i d n o t u n d e r st a n d
c o r r e ct l y b e c a u s e I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t h e n e e d f o r a
c o d e o f c o n d u ct i s j u st i f i e d e v e r y w h e r e .
20

B u t t h e a ct u a l c o n t e n t o f t h e c o d e o f c o n d u ct m a y b e
i n f o r m e d b y t h e n a t u r e o f t h e o p e r a t i o n s i n vo l ve d b u t t h a t
t h e r e s h o u l d b e a c o d e o f c o n d u ct s h o u l d n o t b e i n d i s p u t e .
T h a t i s m y t h i n ki n g .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : O k a y. I a g re e w i t h t h e l a t t e r
p a rt .
Page 99 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
but also number 2.

It should not be in dispute

I t i s n o t e v e r yt h i n g t h a t i s i n t h e d o m a i n

o f t h e i n t e l l i g e n c e i n p r a ct i ce , i n d a y-t o -d a y p ra ct i c e t h a t i s
i n s e cr e t . I t i s n o t .
L e t m e m a ke . . . s a y a n e xa m p l e a n d . . . o f a n a ct i vi t y t h a t
w e g o t i n v o l v e d ro u n d a b o u t 2 0 0 3 / 2 0 0 4 .

Then we were

d e ve l o p i n g a N a t i o n a l S e cu ri t y S t r a t e g y.
T h a t p r o c e s s w a s . . . o n e w a s a n o p e n p r o c e s s.
10

l e a d i n g t h a t p r o c e s s d u ri n g t h a t t i m e .
w i t h b u si n e s s.

I was

We c o l l a b o r a t e d o n e

We c o l l a b o r a t e d w i t h t h e H u m a n R i g h t s

C o m m i t t e e . H e i s a n a d v o c a t e n o w. K o l l a p e n , n é ?
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

W h e n h e w a s a c h a i rm a n o f

t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, he is a judge.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: He is a judge.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. H’m.
AMBASSADOR
20

presentation.

MAQUETUKA:
We

were...

the

He

came

h e a ri n g s

to

were

make
not

a

being

c o n d u ct e d a t t h e f a r m b u t t h e y w e r e a t C S I R .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

P e o p l e f ro m t h e I n s t i t u t e o f

S e c u ri t y S t u d i e s. . . w h o i s t h e g u y t h e r e ? H e c a m e t o m a k e a
p r e s e n t a t i o n . N G O ’s w h o . . . b e c a u s e w e w e r e co n vi n c e d t h a t
Page 100 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f N a t i o n al S e c u r i t y i s n o t a n e x cl u si v e
d o m a i n o f u s.
We c a n n o t d e v e l o p a N a t i o n a l S e c u ri t y a l o n e . S o t h a t i s
why my yes or no.

B u t i t i s t ru e t h a t t h e r e a r e t h o s e

a ct i vi t i e s t h a t a re s e cr e t a n d t h e r e I w i l l g o i n t o a t r e n c h a n d
s a y i t , i f t h e re h a s t o b e t h o s e .

I c a n n o t j u st b e o p e n ,

e v e r yt h i n g o p e n .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
10

O t h e r w i se , w h y d o w e h a v e

an Intelligent Organisation?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . H ’ m . H ’ m . H ’ m . O k a y. Ye s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : B u t w e c a n st i l l . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

. . . d e b a t e t h i s t h i n g o u t si d e

b e yo n d t h e . . .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

The...

I

se e

Advocate

P r e t o ri u s i s s m i l i n g . [ l a u g h s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

If we go to page 99, over the page.

Yo u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a i r t h a t i n 1 9 9 4 / 1 9 9 5 t h e r e w e r e t w o
m a j o r i n t e l l i g e n c e st r u ct u r e s. O n e d o m e st i c a n d o n e f o r e i g n .
I f y o u c o u l d j u st p l e a s e l o o k a t t h e s e c o n d l a st p a r a g ra p h o n
p a g e 9 9 w h i ch b e g i n s w i t h “t h e m o st si g n i f i c a n t d e p a rt u r e
f ro m t h e o l d d i s p e n s a t i o n . . . ”
Page 101 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

Ye s,

a

very

i m p o rt a n t

p r i n ci p l e a n d i t t e n d s t o b e f o r g o t t e n . I t s a y s:
“The

m o st

si g n i f i c a n t

d e p a rt u r e

f ro m

the

old

d i s p e n s a t i o n , t h a t i s t h e a p a rt h e i d d e p a rt m e n t , t h e
dispensation,

is

that

i n st e a d

of

two

c e n t ra l i se d

ci vi l i a n i n t e l l i g e n c e o r g a n i s a t i o n s. . . ”
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , t h e d o cu m e n t s a y s o n e i n s t e a d o f

one.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I n st e a d o f o n e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR
intelligence

MAQUETUKA:

organisation.

. . . ce n t r a l i s e d
Remember

in

national
the

old

d i s p e n s a t i o n , y o u o n l y h a d t h e N a t i o n a l I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r vi c e .
N o w t h i s l i n e s a y s, “ a d e p a rt u r e ” T h e r e w i l l b e t w o . H e n c e ,
t h e cr e a t i o n o f y o u r N a t i o n a l I n t e l l i g e n ce A g e n c y a n d y o u r
S o u t h A f ri c a n S e c re t S e r vi c e , r i g h t ?
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
“This arrangement will not only ensure that the new
20

i n t e l l i g e n c e d i s p e n s a t i o n i n S o u t h A f ri c a co r re s p o n d s
w i t h g e n e r a l i n t e rn a t i o n a l t re n d s b u t w i l l p r o m o t e
g r e a t e r f o cu s si n g , e ff e ct i v e n e s s, p r o f e s si o n a l i s m a n d
e x p e rt i s e i n t h e s p e ci a l i s e d f i e l d s o f D o m e st i c a n d
Foreign Intelligence.
T h e se r vi c e s w i l l h a ve d i st i n ct i n t e l l i g e n ce m a n d a t e s
Page 102 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a n d l i n e f u n ct i o n a l r e s p o n si b i l i t i e s a n d w i l l s h a re
essential

support

s e r vi c e s

to

avoid

c o st l y

and

unnecessary duplication.
They

will,

a c c o r d i n g l y,

create

a p p r o p ri a t e

l i a i so n

m e c h a n i s m s t o d e a l w i t h a r e a s o f n a t i o n a l i n t e re st . ”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a i r, I s e e i t i s o n e o ’ cl o c k.

I am

not sure what your intention is with the lunch adjournment.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, I w i l l t a ke t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t b u t I
j u st w a n t t o f i n d o u t w h e t h e r A m b a s sa d o r M a q u e t u k a h a s
10

a n y c o n st r a i n t s i n c a s e . . . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u h a v e a b e t t e r
i d e a i n c a s e w e h a v e g o t t o g o b e y o n d f o u r o ’ cl o c k t o f i n i sh ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s, w e h a v e b e e n d e a l i n g w i t h t h a t

i s s u e a n d t h e l i m i t a t i o n o f f l i g h t s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t m a y I j u st a s k t h e a m b a s s a d o r. . .

n e e d t o g o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : A m b a s sa d o r, w h a t i s y o u r si t u a t i o n ?
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

N o , m y si t u a t i o n i s f i n e

C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: It is fine?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

I do not have any time

c o n st r a i n t s.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: Even if we go up to twelve.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

[ l a u g h s]

No, thank you.

Page 103 of 294

So if we

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
need

to

go

beyond

four

o ’ cl o c k,

then

we

will

go

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e I a m a v a i l a b l e a n d i t i s i m p o rt a n t

t h a t i f w e c a n , w e g e t a l l o f h i s e vi d e n ce t o d a y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay we will take the lunch adjournment

a n d w e w i l l r e s u m e a t t w o o ’ cl o c k. We a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
10

I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u r e a d y, M r P r e t o r i u s ?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Thank you.

you

we

look

at

page

99,

were

A m b a s s a d o r, w o u l d

still

dealing

with

the

intelligence white paper and the chapter on composition of
t h e i n t e l l i g e n c e c o m m u n i t y.

Yo u h a v e g i v e n m u c h o f t h i s

evidence already but the second last paragraph on page
99, would you just read that onto the record please or
e x p l a i n i t i n y o u r o w n w o r d s , w h i c h e v e r y o u p r e f e r.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The second last…?

Ye s , p l e a s e .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“The

most

dispensation

significant
that

departure

instead

of

from
one

the

old

centralised

National Civilian Intelligence organisation there will
be two.

This arrangement will not only ensure that
Page 104 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the new intelligence dispensation in South Africa
corresponds with general international trends but
will

promote

greater

professionalism
fields

of

and

domestic

services will

have

focusing,

expertise
and

in

foreign

distinct

effectiveness,
the

specialised

intelligence.

intelligence

The

mandates

and line functional responsibilities and will share
essential

support

unnecessary
10

services

duplication.

to

avoid

They

will

costly

an

accordingly

create appropriate liaison mechanisms to deal with
areas of mutual interests.”
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I understand from your evidence,

A m b a s s a d o r,

remains

that

that

your

own

view

of

the

appropriate organisation of intelligence services.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s , I s t i l l d o b u t I w o u l d

s t i l l b e p e r s u a d e d t o c h a n g e m y v i e w b u t p r e s e n t l y, t h a t i s
the position that I take.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

But Chair will make his own

findings in due course in relation to what happened in the
20

intelligence community particularly after your departure but
let me put a theoretical or notional question to you.
members

of

the

executive

wanted

to

control

If
the

i n t e l l i g e n c e s e r v i c e s m o r e t i g h t l y, w o u l d t h a t b e e a s i e r o r
more

difficult

if

they

were

amalgamated

structure?
Page 105 of 294

into

a

single

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I would be easier because

they will only have to deal with one Director General
instead of having to deal with two Directors General.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

According to the post ’94.

And there would have been two

separate structures as opposed to a single structure.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
separate
10

There has always been two

structures distinct in terms of their mandate,

distinct in terms of their field of expertise.
foreign

intelligence

d o m e s t i c a l l y.

service

did

not

SASS, the

do

anything

If there is a domestic intrusion – I mean, a

foreign intrusion into the domestic, they will then liaise
with the domestic NIA.

Hence, they will create liaison

mechanism.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

But let us go over

the page where the white paper deals with the control and
coordination of intelligence.

Again, you have dealt with

some of these matters and the Chair is certainly interested
20

in

obtaining

as

much

expertise as possible.
refers

to

is

a

evidence

in

this

field

of

your

What this – a portion of the paper

mechanism

for

parliamentary

oversight,

b u d g e t a r y c o n t r o l a n d e x t e r n a l a u d i t i n g a n d , i m p o r t a n t l y,
an independent Inspector General for Intelligence.

What

was put in place in the legislation that followed 1994/1995?
Page 106 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
They are listed there.

If you would just tell the Chair

please of the control and oversight institutions that the
l e g i s l a t i o n u l t i m a t e l y p r o v i d e d f o r.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

It

is

true

that

a

joint

standing committee for parliament, which is called the Joint
Standing

Committee

on

Intelligence,

was

created

quite

early and if my memory serves me quite well, the first
Chairperson in 1994 of that was the now Minister Lindiwe
Sisulu.
10

Tw o I n s p e c t o r s G e n e r a l n o w.

A d e c i s i o n – I k n o w,

a decision was subsequently taken that we need not have
two Inspectors General because one Inspectors General
can do the work for both organisations, you see? That was
number one.

But also, it became a cost-saving mechanism

because we had to be – not me, the policy makers were
aware

of

that

cost-saving

mechanism.

Those

two

institutions indeed were created right at the beginning.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Let me ask, to whom does the Joint

Standing Committee for Parliament report?
AMBASSADOR
20

MAQETUKA:

T h e y,

like

any

other

p a r l i a m e n t a r y c o m m i t t e e – o k a y, l e t m e f i r s t s a y, i n i t s
functional design the JSCI is different from the rest of the
parliamentary committees in that, number one, all members
o f t h e J S C I f o r i s s u e s t h a t t h e c o m m i t t e e s i t s f o r, t h e y a r e
not

supposed

to

report

to

their

framework forbids them.
Page 107 of 294

political

parties,

the

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
Number two, I think they go through a security
clearance and the rationale is that they would be privy to
classified information. So that is the second one.
Number three, Advocate, media is not allowed in the
meetings of the JSCI.

It is in closed doors.

And no

member of parliament, no matter even if he or she is a
s e c r e t a r y, c a n g o a n d s i t i n m e e t i n g s o f t h e J o i n t S t a n d i n g
Committee on Intelligence. So that is the distinction.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

Presumably they would prepare

reports like other standing committees?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
committee

they

prepare

Like any other standing

annual

reports

because

the

intelligence on an annual – on an ongoing basis they can
be called at any time on any issue that crops up that might
have

security

intelligence

implication.

They

can

be

s u m m o n e d t o C a p e To w n .
Number two, on an annual basis intelligence reports
annually to the JSCI.
report on all issues.
20

It is a formal process, a formal

Let me say that report is supposed to

be on all issues that have been taking place during that
p a r t i c u l a r y e a r.
Now the only thing that I am not sure of, I am not
certain of, to whom does that report goes to but I will
e x p e c t – I d o n o t k n o w, b u t I w i l l e x p e c t t h e S p e a k e r o f
Parliament will have access to that report.
Page 108 of 294

I expect, I do

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
n o t k n o w, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I would expect also that there should be

somebody in parliament to whom such a report should go
because the com mittee, despite the differences that it may
have compared to other committees, as you have said, it
remains a committee of parliament.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:
do
10

its

job

parliament.

Ye s .

And if, for argument’s sake, it does not

p r o p e r l y,

that

might

attract

negativity

to

So while its report might not necessarily be

accessible to all members of parliament, there must be one
or a few within parliament who – particularly the leadership
to whom it should be should be accessible.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I would expect so also,

C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

A s I s a y, I a m n o a u f a i t w i t h

the nuts and bolts.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

ADV

Ye s . T h a n k y o u .

PRETORIUS

SC:

Are

you

able

to

comment,

A m b a s s a d o r, o n t h e r o l e o f t h e I n s p e c t o r s G e n e r a l a n d h o w
the

Inspectors

General

operates,

whether

it

is

an

independent office, whether it is part of the intelligence
service or what is the position?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u k n o w, t h e s e i n s t i t u t i o n s

Page 109 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a g a i n , u n f o r t u n a t e l y, b u t I t h i n k l i k e a n y i n s t i t u t i o n i n a n y
c o u n t r y, i n s t i t u t i o n s a r e r u n b y p e o p l e .
of

or

not

depend

independence.

on

that

The effectiveness

individual,

so

is

that

If there is one thing that I can put my neck

on the block, the present Inspector General of Intelligence
exercises
office.

independence

and

the

He carry no favours,

independence

of

his

he is not influenced by

a n y b o d y, h e – n o w t h a t i s o n e t h i n g t h a t I c a n s a y a b o u t
that office.
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

What is the function of the office?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The function of the office is

if Advocate Paul Pretorius has got an issue, he picks up,
he suspects that his telephone is being tapped by the
Intelligence – I am making a practical example, Chair –
Adv Pretorius goes straight to the office of the Inspector
General and lodge his complaint formally and the Inspector
General would set up a process then to investigate that
and interact with Adv Pretorius.

That is the way it – it is

not only individuals, groups of people can do that, it is an
20

oversight,

it

is

a

crosschecking

mechanism

over

I n t e l l i g e n c e a n d a v e r y v i t a l o f f i c e , I m u s t s a y. T h e c o u n t r y
will still need it for a foreseeable time.
A n d b y t h e w a y, a g a i n , w e a r e n o t t h e o n l y o n e s
who have such an office since I can safely say it is a
global trend, most countries have Inspectors General.
Page 110 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
functions

as

The white paper refers to the

including

reviewing

the

activities

of

the

Intelligence Services and monitoring their compliance with
policy

guidelines.

Does

that

accord

with

own

understanding and experience?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Ye s , t h r o u g h i t s a n n u a l

report and based on the cases that they would have been
dealing.

There is one thing about that office, I can never

say there was any time when they reacted on rumours.
10

i s a v e r y, v e r y p r o f e s s i o n a l o f f i c e .

It

M a y b e I d o n o t k n o w,

C h a i r, i s i t b e c a u s e i t h a s a l w a y s – n o t a l w a y s r e a l l y, b u t
predominantly it is legal people.

I think the present one is

an advocate, I think, Adv Dintwe.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Is it part of the dispensation that

the Inspector General should have unhindered access to
classified information?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

For a very long time my

interpretation of this unfettered access, it was only when I
was interacting with the office for the first time after a very
20

long time in 2018 that I discovered that the unfetteredness
- I do not know what it means.

P e r h a p s , C h a i r, y o u c a n

educate to me on legally what does it mean.

I used to

think that there is nobody who can stop them from getting
any type of information there.

That is how I knew it but I

was cautioned by some of the slim people there that no,
Page 111 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A m b a s s a d o r, i t i s n o t l i k e t h a t , w e h a v e g o t t o a s k o u r – I
d o n o t k n o w, m a y b e t h a t i s s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t w e n e e d
or the Commission need to be educated in by…
CHAIRPERSON:

By the current incumbent and by others

who are operate in this environment.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Intelligence environment.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

A n d w h o m i g h t u n d e r s t a n d i t b e t t e r.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s , y e s .

O k a y.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Well, save for one comment, that

y o u m i g h t w i s h y o u r s e l f t o c o m m e n t o n , A m b a s s a d o r, i f t h e
body being investigated can withhold information from the
i n v e s t i g a t i n g b o d y, w o u l d t h a t n o t c a u s e a p r o b l e m ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
serious

problem

situation.

and

as

it

Of course it will cause a
has

already

started

in

our

I t h i n k y o u k n o w b e t t e r, t h a t b o t h M o S h a i k a n d

Njenje, came to the Commission without certain documents
20

that they wanted declassified.

But at least I am told, with

m e n o w, t h e d o c u m e n t s h a v e b e e n d e c l a s s i f i e d .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I am informed some of them have,

a c t u a l l y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
a problem.

Yo u s e e ? S o t h a t i n i t s e l f i s

That in itself is a problem because again I was
Page 112 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
assured in no uncertain terms that we have been instructed
to cooperate with the Commission and we shall cooperate
and we will get the documents.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
different

context,

Ye s . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a n s w e r i n a

A m b a s s a d o r,

but

particularly

in

the

context of the Inspector General whose duty it is to review
and monitor compliance.

Is it not logical to expect at least

a high degree of access to documentation?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

A s I s a y, d u r i n g t h e w h o l e

time of my involvement there since 1995, I thought that he
had unfettered access and I was happy with that and I
would still be happy with the Inspector General having that
access.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Then finally in relation to control

and coordination of intelligence, in paragraph 6.2 on page
100 there is mention made of the National Intelligence
Coordinating Committee.

B r i e f l y, w h a t i s i t s f u n c t i o n a n d

how does it rely to the cabinet Committee on Security and
Intelligence and to the Joint Standing Committee?
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
that

question

without

L u c k i l y, C h a i r, I c a n a n s w e r

making

any

reference

to

any

document. I was appointed the Coordinator for Intelligence
and I served my whole four term between 2004, if I am not
mistaken

–

no,

no,

no,

Coordinator for Intelligence.

2002

until

2004

I

was

the

That office is – as I see, it is

Page 113 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
divided into two in terms of operation.
One, you have a NICOC staff which used to be plus
minus 20, 25, highly effective, highly skilled analysts.

Of

course, there were administrators for logistics and liaison
people.

It is responsible, it is the NICOC staff that reports

to the coordinator and then there is the NICOC committee
which

comprises

Services

from

of

all

Crime

the

herds

Intelligence,

of

the

Military

Intelligence
Intelligence,

Defence Intelligence, as it is called, NIA and SASS, that is
10

the

foreign

and

the

domestic

branch.

But

also,

the

Director General in the presidency is a co-opted member
together with the Director General of Foreign A ffairs is
there, so that is the composition of the structure.

It is to

generate the national strategic intelligence product that
goes to cabinet and in between there would be other
products depending on the situation.
I w o u l d e x p e c t , f o r e x a m p l e n o w, c o n t i n u o u s l y t h e y
would or should be briefing cabinet on Covid-19 from an
intelligence perspective not from – necessarily from the
20

Command Council, it is a separate.

That is the function of

the coordination.

As I said – as we are – we said earlier

coordination

intelligence

of

is

critical

in

the

new

dispensation.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
mention

the

If I may ask you please to then just

cabinet

Committee

Page 114 of 294

on

Security

and

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
intelligence.

That is something different from NICOC, the

National Intelligence Coordinating Committee?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Ye s ,

it

is

a

cabinet

committee, it consists of ministers.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ministers of the security

c l u s t e r.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right and it receives reports from

NICOC, I understand?
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It receives reports from

NICOC.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

If I may take you please to page

1 0 2 . Va r i o u s m e a s u r e s a r e l i s t e d t h e r e u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g :
“ Tr a n s f o r m i n g I n t e l l i g e n c e M e t h o d o l o g y ”
7.3, what does it say?

Yo u h a v e t o u c h e d o n t h i s n o w i n

relation to secrecy and declassification.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“The

development

It says:

of

a

more

open

intelligence

community will go a long way towards demystifying
20

and

building

trust

in

the

National

Intelligence

Community…”
Tr u s t i n t h e N a t i o n a l I n t e l l i g e n c e C o m m u n i t y a n d t h i s t r u s t ,
it is from the citizens.
“…where legal limits on secrecy including criteria
and

timeframes

for

Page 115 of 294

classification

and

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
declassification

are

clearly

understood

and

a c c e p t e d b y s o c i e t y, t h e d a n g e r s o f i n t e l l i g e n c e
system becoming a self-serving are averted.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right.

Is there any comment that

y o u h a v e ? I t s e e m s i t a p p e a r s s e l f - e x p l a n a t o r y.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Safely

–

and

let

me

recognise and say that the process of declassification has
t a k e n a l o n g t i m e t o m a t u r e a n d , a s I s a y, I c a n s a f e l y s a y,
w i t h o u t a n y f e a r o r f a v o u r h e r e , C h a i r, b y t h e t i m e I l e f t i n
10

2012 the area of declassification had not then matured.
do not know what the status quo is now as we speak.

I

I do

not know but it took a long time.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Wa s i t a n o v e r s i g h t o n o u r

part? I cannot really give reasons.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Can I take you to 7.4 please, that

is covert action.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

Ye s .

F i r s t l y, w h a t d o e s i t s a y a n d w h a t

is the purpose of…?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

That principle.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“Measures

7.4, covert …[intervenes]

S o r r y, A d v o c a t e .

designed to deliberately interfere with

the normal political processes in other counties, for
Page 116 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
example your coups or your destabilization and with
the internal workings of parties...”
And this would refer political parties and predominantly it
would be opposition parties, for example, by the governing
party that is ruling at the time who have got better access
to intelligence than members of the opposition parties.

I

think that is the framework.
“…and

organisations

engaged

in

lawful

activity

within South Africa must be expressly forbidden.
10

Intelligence agencies and those within them guilty
of

such

breaches

must

be

disciplined

in

the

severest term.”
A n d i n t e r m s o f – i f y o u l o o k a t t h e A c t s u b s e q u e n t l y, i t i s
illegal for Intelligence Service in South Africa to engage in
those activities.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

So, for example, to put a narrative

in the public domain which was false but seeks to influence
political action, is that within the province – legitimate
province of an Intelligence Agency?
20

AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

A b s o l u t e l y.

Absolutely

because …[intervenes]
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Absolutely?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I a m s a y i n g a b s o l u t e l y.

Absolutely or absolutely not?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I would be treason for them

Page 117 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
to do that, interfere with those activities of those political
parties, that disinformation that is intended to destabilize
a n o t h e r p a r t y. T h a t w o u l d b e t r e a s o n .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

If you go then – there is a related

principle on page 109, paragraph 5.3.

Again, that refers

expressly to the concept of disinformation.

Would you

place that on record please and if you have a comment,
please make it.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Is that 5.3?

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“A National Intelligence organisation is a national
asset.”
See what I was saying earlier on.

Not the state asset, it is

a national asset and shall therefore be politically nonpartisan. Non-partisan, that is the principle.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

And the next paragraph?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“No
20

Intelligence,

S e c u r i t y,

Service

organisation

shall be allowed to carry out any operations or
activities that are intended to undermine, promote
or influence any South African political party or
organisation at the expense of another by means of
any acts, e.g. active or covert
means of disinformation.”
Page 118 of 294

measures or by

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Should it disqualify me or not to be in –

to serve in the intelligence service if my plan is that while I
am in the intelligence service, I will engage in assisting a
political party or individuals within that party to achieve
their party political objectives?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n b e c h a r g e d .

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u c a n b e c h a r g e d u n d e r

the various intelligence Acts.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i t i s a n o - g o a r e a .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, it is a no-go area Chair

and be charged.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , t h a n k y o u .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The remaining pages of the White

Paper are largely self explanatory and they set a high ideal
of improving the quality of life of ordinary South Africans
and that being the goal to which an Intelligence Service
should be erected.

Perhaps we could just refer to one

s u c h p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 1 0 5 i t r e f e r s t h e r e t o t h e R D P, t h a t
20

has

since

been

replaced

in

policy

by

other

policy

documents but the underlying sentiment is the same.

The

chapter on conclusion, chapter 9 on page 105, perhaps you
c o u l d p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d b y w a y o f s u m m a r y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

That is the conclusion.

Ye s .
Page 119 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

T h a n k s C h a i r.

Our country

is poised on the brink of tremendous opportunity in which
the human potential of our people can be harnessed to
make South Africa a beacon of hope and success for the
world.

Intelligence

identifying

has

threats,

opportunities

for

a

critical

potential

the

world

threats,

democratic

to

as

play
well

dispensation

in

in
as

South

Africa. The transformation of the Intelligence community is
a process already underway and must be encouraged, so
10

as to allow the Intelligence community to play its rightful
role in meeting our National goals, particularly those set
o u t i n t h e R D P.

Ultimately it is through the approach to

security outlined in the RDP the meeting of the basic needs
of the people through development, sustained economic
growth and mass participation in the building of a new
South

Africa,

that

the

cherished

goals

of

peace

and

stability will be reached.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

A s y o u s a i d , A m b a s s a d o r, t h i s

White Paper was developed in 1995/1996…[intervenes].
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
AMBASSADOR

1994.

1994, is it still relevant today?

MAQETUKA:

Yo u

know

by

the

d a y,

w h e n e v e r I r e a d t h i s W h i t e P a p e r, t h i s W h i t e P a p e r i s s t i l l
relevant up till today but like any other policy document, no
matter how good it was in 1994 the dynamism that it
Page 120 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
o p e r a t e s i n o u r c a s e , N a t i o n a l l y, R e g i o n a l l y, c o n t i n e n t a l l y
and global, the only thing that I can – again I am going to –
I ’ m n o t g o i n g t o a p o l o g i s e t o a n y b o d y, b u t s t a t e t h a t ,
unfortunately there had been no other White Paper that I
have seen, since 1994 and if you look at the potentials for
economic development, the threats that are facing the
global

world

have

changed

and

you

can

actually

c a t e g o r i s e , 1 ) 9 11 , 2 ) t h e r i s e o f i n t e r n a t i o n a l t e r r o r i s m ,
the emergence of your Bin Laden’s and what have you, I
10

m e a n y o u c a n l i t e r a l l y, i n t h e d e v e l o p m e n t f i e l d , P r e s i d e n t
Mbeki ushered in African renaissance which was aimed,
b a s i c a l l y, a t r e v i v i n g A f r i c a a n d i t w a s c h a m p i o n e d b y
South Africa, joined by Nigeria, joined by Algeria, joined by
Senegal and it became a docum ent, a strategy for Africa’s
development, now that was marvellous.

There was a time

C h a i r, w h e n , i n a n y f o r u m i n t h e w o r l d , w h e n a S o u t h
African delegation comes – South African delegation would
b e a f l a v o u r o f t h e d a y.

The foreign policy of South Africa

was understood, championed by President Mbeki supported
20

by Minister Zuma – Dlamini Zuma, your Aziz Bahar ’s at
foreign affairs, your Willy Nhlapo…[? 35.32], it was a team
that was driving this process and we were beginning to see
S o u t h A f r i c a n b e i n g l o o k e d a t n o w, l i k e t h i s b e a c o n o f h o p e
that this document talks about and some of us were very
e x c i t e d a n d s a y, n o w w e a r e b e g i n n i n g t o r e a c h D e n m a r k .
Page 121 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
Yo u k n o w t h e s a y i n g , w h e n s h a l l w e r e a c h D e n m a r k , r e f e r s
t o , w h e n w i l l w e r e a c h t h a t e x c e l l e n c e l e v e l a s a c o u n t y.
Can you say the same thing now that’s another subject,
perhaps for another discussion?
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s i t a t a t i m e w h e n – o r d i d t h a t

environment make you feel that South Africa was taking its
rightful place in the family of nations?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

It

was

in

a

big

way…[intervenes].
10

CHAIRPERSON:

And I’m sure it felt good to be a South

African.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It was good to be a South

African.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It was good to be a South

African.
CHAIRPERSON:

H ’ m o k a y.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I d e t e c t a v i e w, c o r r e c t m e i f I ’ m

w r o n g A m b a s s a d o r, b u t i t m i g h t b e t i m e f o r a n e w W h i t e
20

Paper embodying democratic principles, such as those set
out in the original White Paper?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I might simply say it needs

to be amended but the philosophical base, the thrust of it
might not need to be.

I’m not saying there should be a

n e w W h i t e P a p e r, y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t o r e i n v e n t t h e w h e e l b u t
Page 122 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
i t w i l l n e e d t o b e t w e a k e d , d e f i n i t e l y, s u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:
something

that

Well

are

you

are

still

going

you

–

and
to

this

may

be

and

Mr

address

Pretorius might be dealing with it in due course.

I sensed

from what you were saying when you were saying you have
not seen any other White Paper since this one and of
c o u r s e w e a r e 2 6 y e a r s i n t o d e m o c r a c y, s o i t ’ s m o r e t h a n
25 years old.

I sense that you may be suggesting that, if

there was to be any departure from, maybe, some of its
10

principles, there ought – such changes, such departure
should

have

been

preceded

by

another

White

Paper

s h o w i n g h o w, t h e t h i n k i n g , h o w i t h a d b e e n t h o u g h t h r o u g h
and why it may have been necessary or deemed necessary
t o d e p a r t f r o m s o m e o f t h e f e a t u r e s o f t h i s W h i t e P a p e r.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

That’s exactly what I’m

saying and that is why – that was amongst our concerns in
2009 that we have not defined a new philosophy for this
n e w a n i m a l c a l l e d t h e S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y.

Is it a

change, you needed to go through that process, look at the
20

White Paper and we will also deal with another part of it
when you look through that, when we deal with, again, your
proclamation?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I ’ m g o i n g t o c o m e t o t h a t n o w

Ambassador

understand

but

I

do

you

to

say

that

the

principles – well let me not put words in your mouth, what
Page 123 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
do you say about the basic underlying principles contained
in the White Paper?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

They are still relevant, I

would contend unless I can be proven otherwise.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

If we can go then, to page 7 of

y o u r s t a t e m e n t p l e a s e A m b a s s a d o r. Yo u d e a l w i t h a n i s s u e
that was covered…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry what page?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

P a g e 7 C h a i r, y o u d e a l w i t h a n

issue there that was covered by Messrs. Njenje & Shaik
and you deal with it too and that is the question of whether
it

was legal

or

appropriate

proclamation as was done.

to

restructure the

SSA by

Now we know the proclamation

was followed up some years later by an act of Parliament
but what was your concern in summary with the fact that,
f i r s t l y, t h e r e w a s a n a m a l g a m a t i o n a n d s e c o n d l y t h a t i t w a s
done through proclamation?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Shall I read verbatim what

I’m saying in my statement in answering that question?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n r e a d i f i t ’ s c o n v e n i e n t t o d o s o .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The same page, paragraph

28, am I correct?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , y e s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It says,

“Ambassador Shaik and I shared a concern about
Page 124 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the amalgamation of the SSA through proclamation
rather

than

National

legislation

as

required

by

Section 209 (1) of the Constitution of the Republic
of

South

Africa,

Constitution.

Act

108

of

1996,

that

is

the

Indeed, I raise my concern about the

proclamation with my colleague, Ambassador Shaik
and Mr Njenje, on the day of the announcement of
our appointment, during October 2009”.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

Maybe you can go on to paragraph

3 0 , y o u e s t a b l i s h e d a n E x e c u t i v e C o m m i t t e e , y o u s a y, i n
paragraph 29 and paragraph 30 then.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Should I jump to paragraph

30 now?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s p l e a s e .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I t g o e s f u r t h e r t o s a y,

“ D u r i n g t h e b e g i n n i n g o f 2 0 1 0 , r e m e m b e r, C h a i r,
just to remind you, we are appointed in 2010 – I mean
2 0 0 9 , O c t o b e r, t h e E x e c u t i v e C o m m i t t e e , i n c o n s u l t a t i o n
with – Executive Committee now will mean the three of us
20

– yes that’s the Executive – in consultation with legal
services discussed the proclamation and the, then, draft
State Security Bill”.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d , A m b a s s a d o r,

I’m sure I can find it somewhere else, when was the
proclamation gazetted, I don’t need the date, I just want
Page 125 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the month I’m sure it was 2009 or?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Advocate Pretorius can you

because there’s a copy of the proclamation…[intervenes].
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The proclamation itself is annexed

it was in 2009 I understand.
CHAIRPERSON:

If

you

tell

me

it’s

early

in

2009…[intervenes].
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

O kay it’s m arked as MM13

according…[intervenes].
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , t h e d a t e i s 11 S e p t e m b e r

2009.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, s o y o u a p p o i n t e d t h e m o n t h

after it was promulgated?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Okay I interrupted you while you wanted

to comment or to continue.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: “During 2010 the Executive
Committee,

in

consultation

with

legal

services,

discussed the proclamation and the then draft State
20

Security Bill.

Our aim was to bring to the attention

o f t h e M i n i s t e r, t h a t i s M i n i s t e r S i y a b o n g a C w e l e ,
issues

that

could

be

corrected

in,

both,

the

proclamation and the Bill, which we felt fell foul of
the Constitution as well as other matters which had
been directed by the Minister which were in conflict
Page 126 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
with the proclamation and the Bill.
were

embodied

in

a

document

These concerns

submitted

to

the

Minister on the 28th of April 2010, entitled, State
Security Agency Legislative blah, blah, blah”,
I’m going to pause there because they are going to
inform you or us the correct citation of that Bill, am I right?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , w h e n t h i s w a s d r a f t e d t h e r e

was uncertainty in everybody’s mind, the legal team, and in
your
10

mind,

I

understand,

A m b a s s a d o r,

particular document you were referring to.

as

to

which

We have two

documents under the tab MM6, the first is at page 131
which is in very small print, MM6, that is Ambassador
Shaik’s document as I understand it and then the second
one, which is now being declassified is your document,
that’s at page 134.1, am I correct, 134.1?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u c o n f u s e d m e n o w a n d

when I thought I was getting educated by reference to MM
and what have you.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

Alright do you have MM6?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I h a v e M M 6 s i r.

Now that docum ent – let’s ignore

what the text of the affidavit says, we’ll correct that, if you
go to MM6, that document there is not your document,
that’s the docum ent penned, I underst and, and authored by
Ambassador Shaik, am I correct?
Page 127 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

That ’s correct.

Now if you go on three pages,

you’ll see the – another document.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV

PRETORIUS

SC:

Ye b o .
That’s

your

document,

as

I

understand it, am I correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

This is my document I can

confirm more so because it’s on my signature and that
there is no doubt that it is indeed my signature, I can verify
10

it.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , y e s , a n d t h a t ’ s t h e d o c u m e n t

dated April 2010 at page 134.1 in which you set out your
concerns in relation to the proclamation and the, then draft
State Security Bill, am I correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
I

just

say

–

be

allowed

That’s correct and also can
to

say

r e a l l y,

r e a l l y,

the

declassification of this document has helped me also to be
precise as to what are we referring to because number
one, I was not clear what this is, I really thought that this
20

one that was drafted by Ambassador Shaik – and I would
want to believe now that the document that Ambassador
Shaik drafted might have been his input when we were
discussing these issues.

I s u s p e c t b u t b e i t a s i t m a y,

t h e r e ’ s n o c o n t r a d i c t i o n w h a t s o e v e r, t h i s i s t h e f o r m a l o n e .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right, I don’t want to gloss over
Page 128 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
this because it is part of your evidence and what you want
t o s a y t o t h e C h a i r, b u t i s i t p o s s i b l e f o r y o u t o , b r i e f l y,
summarise what your concerns were about.

Were they

organisational and administrative, did they go further than
that?

Perhaps you can refer to paragraph 31 of your

statement.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

Well one, Mr Pretorius he could begin by

– b e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y h e h a s – w e l l I ’ m s a y i n g o b v i o u s l y,
10

maybe I shouldn’t

s a y, h e h a s r e a d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h i s

d o c u m e n t b e f o r e n o w, i f h e c a n c o n f i r m t h a t t h e y a r e
correct because it’s been quite some time and then he can
deal with the main features of the document.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
helping

me

on

that

one

Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a i r f o r

because

I

haven’t

seen

this

document since 2010.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , i s t h a t s o o k a y.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u s e e t h a t ’ s n u m b e r o n e

but be it as it may I will try and summarise what were the
20

i s s u e s r e a l l y.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Thank you.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

And the issues, one, as

explained to us by the legal team, the issues amongst
others were legal. Our legal team agreed with us that
proclamation was not the route that was supposed to have
Page 129 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
been taken and they cited issues that we dealt with this
morning.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

And we’ve referred to the White

Paper which there should be no changes.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No changes and the changes

Intelligence, says the White Paper in one paragraph, are
not a cut and paste issue you see, that was one.

I recall,

also the other issue was the question of the mandate that
is given to us in the restructuring. Now these are the other
10

issues that I’m referring to in that paragraph and I can
r e m e m b e r n o w, i t r e f e r s t o t h e r o l e o f N I C O C , t h e M i n i s t e r
gives an instruction through that process of the Bill to
include

NICOC

and

to

make

NICOC

performance and I said, no it can’t be.
not a division of NEA or SAS.
t h e S S A a s i t i s n o w.

as

part

of

my

Yo u s e e N I C O C i s

NICOC is not a division of

NICOC is created by its own Act of

Parliam ent and its modus operandi is different com pletely
so I cannot, that was my position. That was one of the
problems I don’t know – I should be dealing with it in this
20

report.

The other issue, I remember quite well, I see it

here, that was quite a contentious issue…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y A m b a s s a d o r, y o u m a y h a v e l e f t

s o m e t h i n g t h a t – y o u p r o b a b l y m e n t i o n i n t h e l e t t e r, I
haven’t

read

this

particular

letter

as

well

but

you

mentioned in your affidavit that, part of the problem with
Page 130 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
using the proclamation route was that, as you understand
it, the Constitution required National Legislation, so that
was

another

point

you

made

earlier

so

I

don’t

know

whether you may have included that point here but that
was part of your issues.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u a r e c o r r e c t , y o u a r e

c o r r e c t C h a i r a n d I s t i l l m a i n t a i n e v e n t o d a y, u n l e s s I c a n
be proven otherwise.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

AMBASSADOR

Ye s .
MAQETUKA:

The

other

problem

in

relation to that, I can see it flagged here, you see there is
a structure that we have in the Intelligence, and again
here, this structure is a very critical structure for the
functioning

of intelligence.

It’s a structure

called the

National Communication Centre, a very sensitive structure
but I deal with it because nonetheless the document is
declassified

n o w.

Paragraph

2

of

that

M6

it

is

my

understand that – okay first let me start from paragraph 1,
Advocate are we together?
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It says, I would respect –

n o w t h i s i s t h e l e t t e r I a m a d d r e s s i n g t o t h e M i n i s t e r,
“I would respectfully like to make the Minister aware
of certain abnormalities that arise from the present
legislative framework governing the State Security
Page 131 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
Agency and its components at the present time.

In

this regard, specific attention will be paid to the
transformation

of

COMSEC,

that

is

now

the

Communication Security which is a division of the
National Communication Centre, into a Government
component

and

the

envisaged

National

Communication Branch. It is the understanding that
the

NC,

that

is

National

Communication,

will

comprise of COMSEC, the National Communication
10

Centre and the office of the Interception Centre.
The fact that COMSEC is currently a Government
component, I will explain what this means, and the
NC

is

not

framework

accommodated
creates

various

within

that

practical

especially in regard to reporting lines.

legal

problems
The current

situation also has a very negative effect in the
development of the Ministerial Payment Directive,
the MPD in terms of the delegation of powers of
COMSEC and not the NC has to be dealt with as a
20

component of the same level as NEA and SARS”.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

If I could ask you to pause there.

The

or

problems

raised

the

issues

raised

in

your

c o m m u n i c a t i o n t o t h e M i n i s t e r, D r C w e l e a t t h a t t i m e ,
a p p e a r e d t o b e l a r g e l y, o r g a n i s a t i o n a l a n d i n a s e n s e d e a l
with the structures that the new dispensation sought to
Page 132 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
bring about and whether those structures were appropriate
f o r t h e e f f i c i e n t f u n c t i o n i n g o f t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e C o m m u n i t y,
am I correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u ’ r e a b s o l u t e l y c o r r e c t

and thank you for assisting me in that.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
h o w e v e r,

you

deal

Right, as a matter of principle,
with

it

from

a

slightly

different

perspective in paragraph 31, of course I don’t want to stop
you, if there’s anything in addition to that, that you wish to
10

add you…[intervenes].
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

In addition to what is in

paragraph 31?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t o n p a g e 8 .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Well there is nothing else to

add to that paragraph and I still stick to it.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: The correctness of it.
ADV

PRETORIUS

dispensation
20

in

SC:

1994

That

in

envisaged

your
a

mind,

the

restructuring

new
which

involved two separate organisations…[intervenes].
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

As opposed to a single centralised

Intelligence Organisation?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , a b s o l u t e l y.

I don’t want to stop your evidence
Page 133 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
in that regard but you have said, in paragraph 33 that
you’ve read Ambassador Shaik’s evidence in regard to the
proposals contained in the proclamation and the Bill and
that you agree with his views.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye b o .
CHAIRPERSON:
Pretorius,

Yo u ’ r e b a c k i n h i s a f f i d a v i t n o w, M r

Mr

Pretorius

are

you

referring

to

paragraph…[intervenes].
ADV
10

PRETORIUS

SC:

Paragraph

33

on

page

9…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Of his affidavit?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o f h i s a f f i d a v i t .

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
it’s

a

matter

of

Right and you also raised – and

record,

certain

issues

in

a

letter

of

resignation which you addressed to the former President
a n d t h a t ’ s M M 2 A a n d t h a t ’ s o n p a g e 11 3 .

I just want to

place that on record, as reflecting your views, is that a
d o c u m e n t a u t h o r e d b y y o u r s e l f d a t e d N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 .
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e 11 3 .

1-1-3?

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

MM2A, just a second.

Ye s .

O k a y.

A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : A b s o l u t e l y, i t i s .
Page 134 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , y o u r e c o g n i s e t h a t d o c u m e n t .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I recognise it.

It’s a document authored by you in

which various views are expressed and they are a matter of
record and unless there’s anything you’d wish to point out,
I’d like us to move on if we can.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No there’s nothing for me to

add.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

Fine.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Except to say that I’ve also

worked backwards to establish.

Because if you notice on

this

established

letter

it’s

not

dated,

I’ve

that

it

was

a c t u a l l y w r i t t e n o n t h e 1 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y.

I think – I think there is

something you say in paragraph 34 that you say is Mr
Pretorius in paragraph 34 that might be important.

Yo u –

y o u h a d r a i s e d a n u m b e r o f d i ff i c u l t i e s w i t h r e g a r d t o – t o
20

the Minister as I understand it with regard to certain issues
in the Department some of which I think are covered in the
letter that we have looked at a minute ago.

What was your

u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t t h e M i n i s t e r ’s a t t i t u d e w a s g e n e r a l l y
speaking to – to the concerns that you had raised?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I – I can safely say by and

Page 135 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
large.

I can safely say by and large he became dismissive

of a number of issues.

Yo u k n o w o n e p e r s o n r e m i n d s m e

that amongst his dismissiveness on the proclamation matter
for example was but this proclamation has already been
gazetted.

Why do you want me to change it?

That was

amongst other things. Then the other one was that …
CHAIRPERSON:

I would have thought that if something

was pointed out as being fundamentally wrong including
using a proclamation instead of national legislation one
10

would be interested in assessing the soundness of that
proposition so that it could be corrected if then there was a
need

for

legislation

rather

than

proclamation

could

be

corrected. He did not seem to – to think along those lines?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No. We did not seem to think
along those lines. But the question can ever be – can even
be further expanded and ask the question – what was the
role of the JFCI on this?

Because this matter would have

been discussed with them.
their response to it?
20

That is number 1.

What was

And – and other structures.

We

seemed to have been at the time the only people who were
concerned about this and mind you by and large on the
proclamation theme we were advised by the legal division
which

had

I

do

not

know

how

many

advocates

quite

experienced people who were running that legal division
experience

as

practising

lawyers.

Page 136 of 294

They

are

the

ones

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
actually because I said to them, look the three of us are not
legal people, are not experts on these things.

Let us be

guided by the legal department and this letter – that MM
what, what was drafted with the assistance of the legal.
Because

you

can

see

some

of

those

issues

legalistic or – for a rough act person like me.

are

very

Yo u k n o w.

But – no, no, no it was – it was dismissed.
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s o n e o f y o u r – w a s o n e o f y o u r

concerns about this idea of the use of a proclamation as
10

opposed to national legislation in establishing this agency
t h a t n a t i o n a l l e g i s l a t i o n w o u l d g e t t o b e d e b a t e d o p e n l y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: In parliament.
CHAIRPERSON:

In parliament and even society would be

able to make an input whereas maybe and I do not put
higher than that maybe if it is proclamation there is no such
p r o c e s s ? Wa s t h a t p a r t o f y o u r c o n c e r n ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
know

what

the

process

is

The unfortunately I do not
for

proclamation

but

my

understanding of proclamation that it is like a presidential
20

decree.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
through

parliamentary

Yo u k n o w i t d o e s n o t g o

committees

and

what

have

you.

Maybe they are informed they do not take part in – it would
be interesting to know from experts in that field.
Page 137 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: What is the process?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

That is – that was precisely

our problem.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: But what is this rush?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

Now in simple terms and

somewhere in my – in my statement Advocate Pretorius I
say maybe one of the problems was the honeymoon of – of
2007.

The new regime wanted to change everything.

I

mean it is like for example later which is not really much
about

this

Department

up
of

to

today

I

Foreign

do

A ff a i r s

not

understand

was

changed

why

the

into

the

Department of International Relations and – I mean such
[indistinct

00:06:09].

I

remember

we

used

headaches with that name as Ambassadors.

to

have

Because they

u s e d t o c a l l t h i s F o r e i g n A ff a i r s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Now I am not sure whether it

was that – that wave but they would better explain it to the
people who engineered this whole thing.
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Perhaps

the

history

of

the

Intelligence Service after your departure might give a clue
Page 138 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
to the purpose of the centralisation in relation to issues of
control and the like that that evidence is not before the
Chair at the moment.

I would like to just make one point

a n d t h e n a s k a q u e s t i o n . Yo u w i l l r e m e m b e r w h e n y o u w e n t
through the white paper Ambassador the point made by the
Chair now is dealt with very clearly there that there should
be no changes to the doctrine, structures and procedures of
the National Security framework unless approved of by the
people and their representative bodies.
10

It would seem to

me that that statement is consistent with the notion of a
democratised Intelligence Service.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

And

who

are

those

representatives of the people? It is parliament.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Exactly presented by …
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
expect

in

this

responsibilities

The second question one would

process
to

have

parliament
said

which

very

has

clearly

its
this

own
is

u n a c c e p t a b l e , t h i s i s o u r t e r r i t o r y. D i d y o u h e a r a n y t h i n g o f
20

that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No. No.
CHAIRPERSON:
question.

We l l m a y b e t o – t o l i n k w i t h M r P r e t o r i u s ’

Did you at every time raise the same concern

w i t h t h e p a r l i a m e n t a r y c o m m i t t e e t o s a y, w e l l w e o p e r a t e –
we have been established by way of a proclamation we have
Page 139 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
concerns about this we continue to operate but we have
raised our concerns and we are mentioning them to you for
what it is worth or something like that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Chair I am going to be very

honest on this one.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I do not remember really me

raising it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Or at least raising.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Because the other reason is

that and I think I mentioned this in my statement Advocate
Pretorius.

We t h e n t o o k a d e c i s i o n t h a t l e t u s g e t a l o n g

with this integration.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Because we are not being

listened to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
20

A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Yo u s e e .
CHAIRPERSON:
relevant

Ye s .

parliamentary

But of course there is no way the
committee

would

not

have

been

aware that the State Security Agency had been established
by way of a proclamation.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: On the contrary Chair I do not
Page 140 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
think that they were not aware. How could it have been?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t i s w h a t – t h a t i s w h a t I a m s a y i n g
that…
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I cannot – I do not think that they would

not have been aware.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Absolutely I agree to that.
CHAIRPERSON: They must have been aware.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: And whether they found that unacceptable
or not is another matter but they must have been aware and
– and of course maybe we will hear from – from somebody
form them who will enlighten us as to what the position was
and what they did about it. If they also took the view that it
was not the – the constitutional way of establishing the
a g e n c y.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

If I may just take you to the

next section Ambassador of your statement on pages 9 and
10
20

where

you

deal

with

the

constitutional

role

of

the

President and the Minister in providing director over the
Intelligence Services.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Hm.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The relevant sections as you have

pointed out are sections 198 and 209 they are annexed in
this

document

Chair

and

they

have

Page 141 of 294

been

dealt

with

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
extensively by Ambassador Shaik.

But just one point that

y o u m a k e i n p a r a g r a p h s 3 8 a n d 3 9 . Yo u m a k e t w o p o i n t s .
1 . Yo u r a i s e t h e i s s u e o f w h e t h e r t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n
executive

member

of

cabinet

responsible

for

Intelligence Services as opposed to the President.
That delegation issue and the secondly:
2 . Yo u r e l a t e t h a t t o t h e n e e d f o r t h e r e t o b e a s e p a r a t i o n
of intelligence from

policy making and a

carefully

structured relationship between the two.
10

And we will come to that interaction in relation to the facts
l a t e r.

And in paragraphs 38 and 39 you express a view

regarding the need for a Minister to deal with Intelligence
Services. What was your view?
AMBASSADOR
Chairperson

–

MAQETUKA:
Chairman.

I

Ye s
think

I

paragraph
would

also

38
seek

indulgence that I read it verbatim.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t i s f i n e .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“Before
20

the

appointment

of

a

designated

Minister

of

Intelligence the President had retained his role to guide the
Intelligence Services.”
And

I

think

that

is

a

constitutional

prerogative

of

the

President.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Only – only in this case only

Page 142 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
delegating the administration of Intelligence Services to an
e x e c u t a n t M i n i s t e r.

Tr a d i t i o n a l t h e M i n i s t e r – o k a y – s o

sorry I was reading a little bit wrong.
“Before

the

appointment

of

a

delegated

Minister

of

Intelligence the President had retained his role to guide the
Intelligence Services. Only delegating the administration of
the

Intelligence

Services

to

an

executant

Minister

traditionally the Minister of Justice.”
What I am saying is that pre 1994 and the first part of 1994
10

I think up to 1996 the second constitution – the formal
constitution was adopted in 1996 I think.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
Intelligence Services.
M i n i s t e r.

No,

no

There was no Minister for

There was only a delegated Deputy

s o r r y.

The

Minister

responsible

for

a d m i n i s t r a t i o n w a s t h e M i n i s t e r o f J u s t i c e D u l l a h O m a r.
And there was a Deputy Minister for Intelligence Service in
the name of Joe Nhlahla who was reporting the factor to
Dullah Omar that was the – this is what that paragraph is
20

saying.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I – w e l l y o u c l a r i f y n o w.

I was about

to ask you because I thought – I was under the impression
that Minister – I was under the impression that Mr Joe
Nhlanhla was Minister of Intelligence immediate after 1994.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No.
Page 143 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON: That is not correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No it is not correct.
CHAIRPERSON: He was Deputy Minister of Justice.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No.
CHAIRPERSON:

He was Deputy Chief Minister of Justice

but given specific responsibilities that relate to Intelligence
b u t n o t a s M i n i s t e r.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No. Not that.

He was Deputy

Minister for Intelligence.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Right from 1994.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Right.

Now

as

Deputy

Minister
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

He

was

reporting

a d m i n i s t r a t i v e l y t o M i n i s t e r o f J u s t i c e w h o w a s D u l l a h O m a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: That is the…
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh so it is a little interesting.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Joe only became Minister in

1999.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But – but when he became Minister

did he become Minister of Intelligence or not?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s M i n i s t e r o f I n t e l l i g e n c e .
Page 144 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I think that is where – so – but before
1999 – so he was Deputy Minister of Intelligence even
though there was no Minister of Intelligence?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye b o .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye b o
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Now I go further to say I am

of the view that the constitution did not contemplate that the
10

President

would

delegate

his

duties

to

guide

the

I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r v i c e s t o a n o t h e r M i n i s t e r.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Now may I just ask you to pause

there Ambassador because you make a distinction between
the

administrative

function

and

the

guidance

or

policy

function is that the point you making here – you are making
here?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I will further to say I agree

with Ambassador Shaik that there is and there was no need
for there to be a Minister for – of Intelligence. Furthermore,
20

it is my view that the concept of having a Minister of
Intelligence is a direct conflict with the basic principles of
i n t e l l i g e n c e s e t o u t i n t h e w h i t e p a p e r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W h y d o y o u s a y t h a t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I think it is because we had

just read the white paper which talks about the separation
Page 145 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
b e t w e e n I n t e l l i g e n c e a n d P o l i c y m a k e r. N o w w h e n y o u h a v e
this animal called Minister of Intelligence for me it is a
contradiction to – to the – what the white paper envisaged
that there would be that separation.

That was the program.

I do not know whether it explains that.
CHAIRPERSON:

But go once – I think you need to deal

with the matter a little more than that namely what if
somebody says what the white paper said in 1994 on that
point may have reflected the thinking then but ex number of
10

years later maybe 1999 the thinking changed that is why
there was then a Minister of Intelligence and in principle
leaving out the white paper what is your objection to the
concept of a Minister of Intelligence?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

In my recollection Chair I do

not remember an engagement or an explanation from any of
t h e p o l i c y m a k e r s t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t w e h a v e c o n s i d e r e d
w h a t i s i n t h e w h i t e p a p e r.

But we are of the opinion now

that there is a need for us to shift from that position.
Because what we articulating I am – my – my position would
20

h a v e b e e n p e r h a p s d i ff e r e n t i f i t h a d b e e n a r t i c u l a t e d i n t h e
m a n n e r i n w h i c h y o u a r e a r t i c u l a t i n g i t n o w.

I would have

s a i d , o h o k a y. T h e p o l i c y m a k e r s h a v e d e c i d e d o t h e r w i s e .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l …
CHAIRPERSON:

Because of course the – the – a lot of

things may have been seen in a certain way in 1994 or in
Page 146 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the years leading to 1994 and certain legislative frameworks
were put in place but as our country progressed then they
have – there may be certain areas where the experiences
suggested

that

what

was

thought

would

work

had

not

worked and new ways had to be considered and maybe that
is why in 1999 as you say it might have been thought there
should be a Minister of Intelligence just like there is a
Minister of every other thing.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

I agree with you Chair and

perhaps I do not know whether am I the right person to say
perhaps when the governing party comes and makes its
presentation perhaps, they should reflect on the manner in
which you are articulating.

This is because for me – and I

know to both myself and Ambassador Shaik it is still an
issue to us.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So – so it may be that – it may be

that your objections are more process related rather than
principled, is that right?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Possible.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : P o s s i b l y o k a y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It is possible I would not

disagree with you Chair on that one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Well if I may just take you to your

own statement Ambassador in paragraph 39.
Page 147 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yo u r a i s e t h e f u n d a m e n t a l q u e s t i o n

how do you separate the Intelligence Service itself from the
executive when the Minister of Intelligence is a member of
the Executive? And you say that in the context of the need
for separation of intelligence from policy making.

Now as I

understand what you have said already Ambassador it is the
duty of Intelligence to raise red flags to speak to the
executive at an arm’s length as it were to warn them to tell
10

them what is happening or might happen in the country and
a b r o a d w h i c h m i g h t a ff e c t t h e i r p o l i c y d e c i s i o n s .
understand you correctly?

Do I

And I think the point you raise

here in paragraph 39 and please correct me if I am wrong if
the very person to whom or very member of the executive to
whom you must speak is also the person who is in control in
a sense of the Intelligence Service does that not create a
problem?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It – I agree that it does.

It

does.
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s y o u c o u l d e x p a n d o n t h a t t o
the Chair?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
Let us take an example.

It creates a serious problem.

A Minister for Intelligence would

b e c o m i n g f r o m t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r t y.
1. Any Minister takes his line of duty command and
Page 148 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
control from his or her political party not so?

Or it is

supposed to be like that. Right
Now if the ruling party says, no, no, no, you cannot do this
in Intelligence you have got to follow party line. What is the
– what is the poor soul going to do?

The poor soul will

definitely compromise her or his role as Intelligence and will
prefer to follow the party line. That one I am – I will have to
be convinced otherwise.

Ye s I w a s j u s t – a s I a m t a l k i n g I

was trying to think of an example of this [indistinct 00:3:59].
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC: We have an example to come in your
evidence?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Sorry?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W e h a v e a n e x a m p l e t o c o m e .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
for assisting me on that.

Let me see that.

Ja thanks

We h a v e g o t a n e x a m p l e t o c o m e

and [indistinct 00:24:09].
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e l l l e t m e a s k t h i s q u e s t i o n .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

The problem you raise which you have

just articulated with regard to an arrangement in terms of
which there is a Minister of Intelligence where his party or
her party may say well this is the line you are supposed to
take because we as a party this is what we think is right.
Why does the same problem not arise if you do not have a
Minister of Intelligence but you must still go and speak to
Page 149 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the President of the country who is a President of the ruling
party?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I t i s a l i t t l e b i t d i ff e r e n t n o w.

The question that we should ask Chair is who will be that
person?

That person will be a non-partisan person in the

name of a DG who is just not supposed to take instructions
from any politician. That is the principle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : T h a t i s t h e d i ff e r e n c e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay well you must help me understand.

I – I thought at least in part what you were saying is we
cannot or we should not be reporting to a Minister because
he is subject to his party control but we should report to the
President or Head of State.

So that is the context in which

I ask the question. But from your – what you have just said
is my understanding misplaced?

It has got nothing to do

with reporting or does it?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It has to do with it – it has to

d o w i t h r e p o r t i n g a l s o C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b e c a u s e y o u a s t h e D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l

of Intelligence if there is a Minister and the arrangement is
that you report to the Minister then the concern which you
have articulated about the Minister in a way being subject
to the control of the ruling party is there but I was then
saying even if the Minister of Intelligence is not there you –
Page 150 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
you would still be reporting to somebody and I guess that
that would be the President.

And why is that concern not

there if you are reporting to the President because he too
would be subject to the control of the party or would he not
be?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Well it is expected – it is

expected that as I was saying earlier Chair when it comes
to Intelligence matters it is not what the President wants to
h e a r.
10

It is what the Intelligence is telling him or her which

would have – or it will – it should have nothing to do with
the politics or the political arrangement.

Let me make an

e x a m p l e p a r t l y. N o w I h a v e g o t a n e x a m p l e w h i c h o f c o u r s e
it is not in my report.
CHAIRPERSON:

It is not becoming one it is the present

one.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

N o , n o t h a t i s a d i ff e r e n t o n e

that is in my report.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

But perhaps it will illustrate

this much. Because it was in the public domain.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It went to court and what

have you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The conflict between Director

Page 151 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
General of the National Intelligence Agency Billy Masetlha
versus

Ronnie

Kasrils

Minister

of

Intelligence.

Billy

Masetlha undertook an operation to survey certain member I
think at that time the member was and ANC NEC member I
think.

Ronnie Kasrils instructed – oh this politician picked

up the surveillance something like that and went to report to
the Minister for Intelligence Services that your people are
surveilling me.

Billie Masetlha says, yes we are surveilling

him because we had information.
10

Minister said stop this

investigation. Masetlha says I am not going to stop it. That
was I think when Billie Masetlha was – it was in the courts
that thing for years – two years I think I am sure you can
get it from the records.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja there was litigation.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: It was litigation.
CHAIRPERSON:

But I do not know if it emanated to

anything between him and Mr Ronnie Kasrils.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

He

w a s,

of

course,

at

so m e

st a g e

d i s m i s se d b y t h e p r e si d e n t .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e i s su e o f t h e d i sm i s s a l , I t h i n k,

w e n t u p t o t h e C o n st i t u t i o n a l C o u rt .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e i s a r e p o rt e d j u d g m e n t o n t h e i s s u e .
Page 152 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
W h a t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t e m a n a t e d f ro m w h a t y o u a r e
t a l ki n g a b o u t o r w h e t h e r i t w a s s a i d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : P a rt l y d i d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

Because

there

was

that

c o n f l i ct . B e c a u s e re m e m b e r, t h e a r g u m e n t C h a i r, [ c o u g h i n g ]
said was that:

“I h a ve g o t a m a n d a t e .

I ru n t h e o p e r a t i o n s.

A n d y o u c a n n o t i n t e rf e r e i n t h o s e o f . . . ”
N o w, t h a t w a s a c o n f l i ct .
10

I sa y i t a s a n e xa m p l e . A n d I

a g a i n , w i t h o u t f e a r o f f a v o u r, I s u p p o rt e d Vu si M a v i m b e l a ’s
p o si t i o n .
O f co u r s e , I w a s o u t o f t h e I n t e l l i g e n ce b u t I s u p p o r t e d
Vu s i . . . a n d I s a i d I w o u l d h a v e d o n e t h e s a m e t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

I t h o u g h t I m u st e n g a g e y o u

o n t h e p o i n t b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w h o w e vi d e n c e w i l l u n f o l d
b u t i t m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g q u i t e i m p o rt a n t t o l o o k a t t h e i s su e
o f t h e M i n i st e r o f I n t e l l i g e n c e a n d s o o n .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
ADV
20

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Ye s,

C h a i r.

We l l ,

a m b a s s a d o r, a r e o n p a r a g r a p h s 3 8 a n d 3 9 .

yo u r

views

And as I read

y o u r vi e w i n p a r a g r a p h 3 9 , i t i s q u i t e e xp r e s sl y t h a t :
“I f t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r vi c e ’s d u t y i s t o a d d r e s s t h e
e x e cu t i v e , i t s h o u l d n o t b e c o n t r o l l e d b y a m e m b e r o f
t h a t e x e c u t i v e b u t ra t h e r b y t h e p r e si d e n t . ”
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: H’m.
Page 153 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d w e k n o w i t i s a c r u d e a n a l y si s

C h a i r a n d w e m a y a d d r e s s yo u l a t e r o n t h a t i n t e r m s o f t h e
c o n st i t u t i o n t h e p re s i d e n t p e rf o r m s t w o c a p a ci t i e s o r e xi st s
i n t w o ca p a ci t i e s c o n st i t u t i o n a l l y.
T h e o n e i s a s H e a d o f S t a t e w i t h c e rt a i n d u t i e s a n d t h e
other is at the Head of the Executive. And perhaps that was
t h e i n t e n t i o n u n d e rl i n i n g t h e e xt e n si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

B u t l e t u s n o t h a v e a d e b at e a b o u t

t h a t n o w. C a n I t a k e y o u t h r o u g h t o p a r a g ra p h 4 1 w h e r e y o u
s a y t h a t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e i s s u e s t h a t y o u h a v e s p o ke n t o t h e
C h a i r a b o u t t o d a y a n d d i ff i c u l t i e s i n c o m m u n i c a t i o n w i t h y o u r
m i n i st e r, t h e re l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e m i n i st e r,
u l t i m a t e l y, b e g a n t o d e t e ri o r a t e a n d f i n a l l y b r o k e d o w n ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a ra g r a p h 4 2 t o p a ra g r a p h 4 6 , y o u
express an opinion.

N o w g i v e n y o u r e x p e ri e n c e a t t h e t i m e

a n d g i v e n y o u r t o t a l e m e r si o n i n t h e e ve n t s o f t h e d a y a n d
y o u r a b i l i t y n o w t o l o o k b a c k, b u t t h e C h a i r w i l l d e ci d e w h a t
20

weight to place on your opinion.
O f co u r s e , h e i s n o t b o u n d b y t h i s.

He would be in

re l a t i o n t o f a ct u a l m a t t e r s w h i c h h e a c c e p t s t h a t a r e c o r r e ct
c o m i n g f r o m y o u , b u t i f I m a y j u st p l a c e o n r e c o r d C h a i r w i t h
y o u r l e a v e , t h e o p i n i o n e x p r e s se d i n p a r a g r a p h s 4 4 a n d 4 5 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]
Page 154 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

W i t h t h e b e n e f i t o f h i n d si g h t , h o w d o

y o u n o w u n d e r st a n d t h a t r e st ru ct u ri n g p r o c e s s t h a t y o u h a ve
j u st t e st i f i e d t o ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

T h a n k s, a d v o c a t e .

st i l l st a n d w i t h m y a s s e rt i o n i n t h o se p a r a g r a p h s.

C h a i r, I
I st i l l

st a n d b y t h a t . A n d . . .
CHAIRPERSON:

W i l l yo u j u st a r t i c u l a t e t h e m b ri e f l y, s o

s o m e b o d y w h o d o e s n o t h a v e t h e b e n e f i t o f y o u r a ff i d a vi t ,
l i k e m e a n d M r P r e t o ri u s, w h o i s l i st e n i n g c a n u n d e r st a n d
10

w h a t yo u r o p i n i o n w a s o r y o u r vi e w w a s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t d o y o u sa y, i n o t h e r w o r d s, i n

p a r a g ra p h s 4 4 a n d 4 5 . W h a t i s y o u r o p i n i o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I st i l l st i c k t o t h i s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i f yo u w a n t t o r e a d i t ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I ca n r e a d i t . I c a n r e a d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I t s a y s. . . p a r a g r a p h 4 4 s a y s:
“I t w a s m y vi e w t h a t t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e r e st r u ct u r i n g
o f I n t e l l i g e n ce S e r vi c e w a s t h a t p o st P o l o k w a n e A N C
20

E l e ct i o n s,

the

f r a ct i o n

in

su p p o r t

of

the

former

p r e si d e n t , t h e Z u m a F r a ct i o n , w a n t e d t o a c c e p t t h e i r
c o n t r o l a n d m a k e t h e i r m a r k b y a ff e ct i n g ch a n g e t o
t h e e xi st i n g I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r vi c e .
I did not believe that they applied their minds to the
ra t i o n a l f o r d o i n g s o ”.
Page 155 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
That

is

for

the

cr e a t i o n

of

the

SSA,

as

we

had

discussed.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
“ H o w e v e r, i n r e t r o s p e ct a n d h a vi n g re g a r d t o t h e
e v e n t s t h a t f o l l o w e d a f t e r o u r d e p a rt u r e f ro m t h e
I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r vi c e a n d i n p a rt i c u l a r, t h e p a r a l l e l
c o v e t I n t e l l i g e n c e O p e r a t i o n s co n d u ct e d b y A rt h u r
F r a s e r, i t m a y b e t h a t m o r e si n i st e r o b j e ct i v e s w e re
10

a t p l a y i n t h e r e st ru ct u ri n g . ”
N o w, w h a t I . . . i n s i m p l e t e rm s. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o rr y, M r A m b a s sa d o r.

Wo u l d y o u

j u st a d d p a r a g ra p h 4 6 , p l e a s e ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: 46.
“I t m a y j u st b e t h a t , w h y h a s t h e f o r m e r p r e si d e n t
b e l i e ve d t h a t w e w o u l d a l l se r v e h i s b r o a d e r a g e n d a
t o p e r h a p s c a p t u re t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r vi c e w h e n i t
was apparent that we were not as compliant as
e x p e ct e d ?
20

We

w e re

r e p l a ce d

so

that

we

could

pursue his agenda unhindered.”
C h a i r, c a n I e x p l a i n m y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o e l a b o ra t e ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

Ye s, I w a n t t o e l a b o r a t e o n

Page 156 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
t h i s. C h a i r, I a m c o n vi n ce d e v e n m o r e n o w. I a m n o t s a yi n g ,
i t i s i n m y st a t e m e n t t h a t o u r l e a vi n g . . . a n d I a m t a l ki n g
a b o u t m y s e l f , N j e n j e a n d S h a i k.
Our

l e a vi n g

the

organisation

is

tantamount

to

c o n st r u ct i v e d i sm i s s. . .
CHAIRPERSON: Dismissal.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

Dismissal.

If you follow the

e v e n t s. A n d w h a t I a m s a yi n g h e r e i n t h i s p a r a g r a p h .
m u st h a v e b e e n a ra t i o n a l f o r t h a t .
10

There

N u m b e r o n e . . . ra t i o n a l

n u m b e r o n e , I a m c o n vi n ce d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
point.

I a m s o r ry.

P l e a se d o n o t f o r g e t y o u r

I j u st w a n t t o s a y b e c a u s e w e a re b o t h , M r P r e t o ri u s

a n d I h a v e m e n t i o n e d t o yo u c o n st r u ct i v e d i s m i s s a l b e c a u s e
we had the communication that is what you wanted to say
b u t o t h e r p e o p l e m i g h t n o t kn o w w h a t t h a t i s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

C o n st r u ct i v e d i s m i s s a l i n t h e c o n t e xt o f

L a b o u r L a w i s w h e n y o u r e m p l o y e r m a ke s i t u n b e a r a b l e f o r
y o u t o c o n t i n u e i n yo u r j o b a n d y o u e n d u p r e si g n i n g a n d y o u
20

a r e l e a vi n g .
T h a t i s w h a t . . . I a m j u st m e n t i o n i n g i t f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f
t h o se w h o m i g h t n o t k n o w w h a t ki n d o f a n i m a l co n st ru ct i v e
d i s m i s sa l i s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : We l l , a l s o . . . i t h e l p s m e a l s o .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
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10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

It helps me if that the... it

c o m e s f r o m , n o t t h e C h a i r o f t h e C o m m i s si o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

...but from Deputy Chief

J u st i c e . T h a t i s h o w I u n d e r st o o d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

And when you look at our

st a t e m e n t s a n d o u r a p p e a r a n c e i n t h i s, i t f o l l o w s t h e s a m e
t re n d .
10

T h e r e w a s a n e c e s si t y t o p u sh t h e s e p e o p l e .

They

a r e a st u m b l i n g b l o c k t h e s e p e o p l e . “ Ta k e t h e m o u t ! ”
N o w i n p a r a g r a p h 4 3 , I a l s o m e n t i o n e d s o m e t h re e o t h e r
i n d i vi d u a l s

who

also

were

dismissed

from

their

senior

p o si t i o n s i n a l m o st a si m i l a r w a y, a v e r y c ru d e w a y, f r o m
t h e i r o ff i c e s.
A t l e a st o n e i n d i v i d u a l w h o i s a n a m b a s s a d o r n o w, Vu s i
M a v i m b e l a , e xp l a i n s i t i s i n h i s b o o k.

I have not read the

b o o k b u t h e e x p l a i n s i t i n h i s b o o k b e ca u s e h e sa y s. . .
N o , l e t m e j u st g o b a c k.

At the time 2009, I am

a m b a s s a d o r i n A l g e ri a w h e n I w a s re c a l l e d . Vu zi m a W i n d e l a
20

was a Senior Executive in Mvelaphanda. He was already out
o f g o v e rn m e n t .

H e w a s b r o u g h t b a c k i n t o g o ve r n m e n t a n d

b e m a d e t h e D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l i n t h e P r e si d e n c y.
A m b a s sa d o r N h l a p o , We l i l e N h l a p o , t h e s a m e p e ri o d h e
is the ambassador in the US.

A v e r y se n i o r p o st .

A very

s e n i o r e m b a s s y. H e i s b ro u g h t b a c k a n d h e i s m a d e N a t i o n a l
Page 158 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
S e c u ri t y A d vi s o r, r i g h t ?
T h e n S h a i k.

I t h i n k i n h i s a ff i d a vi t , h e w a s a l r e a d y i n

b u si n e s s. A l s o , h e i s ru n n i n g h i s f a m i l y b u si n e s se s.
w a s i n b u si n e s s.

Njenje

Now all of us are brought into government

b y P r e si d e n t Z u m a , ri g h t ?
N o w, t h e n I a n a l y s e s t h i s d e ve l o p m e n t a n d w h e n I h e a r
Windela

and

p r e si d e n c y

his

and

challenges

ultimately

and

what

his

led

problem

him

to

in

the

leave

the

p r e si d e n c y a n d j o i n t h e d i p l o m a t i c c o r e .
10

M a v i m b e l a ’s b o o k . . . n o , n o t i n h i s b o o k.

In one of his

i n t e r vi e w s, o n t h e re l e a s e o f h i s b o o k, h e s a y s: “I a s k e d . . . I
h a d a m e e t i n g w i t h t h e p r e si d e n t a n d I a s k e d t h e p r e si d e n t ,
w h a t i s i t t h a t I h a ve d o n e t h a t I a m b e i n g t r e a t e d i n t h i s
m a n n e r? ”
T h e p re si d e n t s a i d t o h i m [ s p e a ki n g v e r n a c u l a r] :
[ Tr a n sl a t i o n ] :
“There are some of my people that do not want you
b e ca u s e t h e y s a y y o u a r e a p l a n t i n t h e p r e si d e n t .
Yo u r e p re s e n t i n t e re st s o f To k y o S e x w a l e ”.
20

T h a t i s n o t m e . T h a t i s M a vi m b e l a w h o s a y s t h a t . O k a y
b u t a l l o f u s, N h l a p o , N h l a p o d e f a ct o .
about three years.

I t h i n k h e w a s t h e re

N h l a p o g a ve u p a n d h e s a y s, “ N o , I a m

l e a vi n g t h i s t h i n g b e ca u s e t h i s t h i n g i s n o t j e l l i n g .

I am not

g e t t i n g a n y g u i d a n c e a s t o w h a t I a m su p p o s e d t o d o ”.
T h e n y o u h a d t h e s e t h r e e , ri g h t ?
Page 159 of 294

In the Intelligence.

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
They are appointed.

B u t l e t m e a l s o s a y t o b e f a i r, a l s o t o

f o r m e r P r e si d e n t Z u m a .
T h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g i n m e t h a t s a y s, a t t h e t i m e w h e n h e
d e ci d e d t o b ri n g u s i n , h e h a d a g e n u i n e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s g e n u i n e a b o u t i t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: ...what he wanted?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : B e c a u se a l l o f u s h a v e g o t a
si m i l a r b a c k g r o u n d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

A l l o f u s h a v e g o t a si m i l a r

b a c kg r o u n d i n t e rm s o f i n v o l v e m e n t i n g o ve r n m e n t si n c e
1 9 9 4 , i n t e r m s o f a g e , i n t e r m s o f t h e i n vo l ve m e n t . . . o u r
involvement in the ANC and we all knew him.
We h a v e . . . a l l o f u s k n e w P r e si d e n t Z u m a f r o m e xi l e .
L e t m e a l s o ci t e o n e o t h e r i n d i vi d u a l b e c a u se i f y o u . . . w i t h
a l s o b ri n g i n g h e r i n t o t h i s n a r r a t i v e o f m i n e , w h o c a m e t o t h e
C o m m i s si o n . T h a t i s P h u m l a W i l l i a m s.
I h a d t h e o p p o rt u n i t y o f m e e t i n g P h u m l a , I t h i n k t h r e e
20

w e e k s b e f o re t h e . . . b e f o r e sh e a p p e a r e d i n t h e C o m m i s si o n ,
i n t h e f u n e r a l o f Z o n d e n i Ve ro n i c a S o b u k w e i n G r a a ff R e i n e t .
S h e w a s r e p re s e n t i n g G C I S .
And

we

discussed

about

her

coming

b e f o re

the

C o m m i s si o n a n d s h e r e s o l u t e t h a t : “B h u t i , I a m g o i n g t o t h e
C o m m i s si o n b e c a u s e I w a n t t o t e l l m y st o ry.
Page 160 of 294

What I am

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
going

t h ro u g h

in

that

d e p a rt m e n t

called

GCIS

is

u n b e l i e v a b l e ”.
I r e ca l l w h e n sh e a p p e a r e d i n f ro n t o f y o u C h a i r, w h a t
she said.

“I st i l l w a n t t h e P re s i d e n t Z u m a t o t e l l m e w h a t i t

is wrong that I have done?”
We a l l n o w k n o w t h a t P h u m l a w a s o n l y co n f i rm e d D G a t
G C I S t h i s y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r a ct i n g f o r m a n y ye a r s ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
10

I d o n o t kn o w.

I think

P h u m l a w o u l d h a v e a ct e d m o r e t h a n si x y e a r s b u t I a m s u r e
i t c a n b e c h e c ke d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
back

to

our

si t u a t i o n ,

I

U n b e l i e va b l e .

st r o n g l y

b e l i e ve

But coming
that

it

was

c o n st r u ct i v e d i sm i s s a l t o p a v e w a y f o r p l i a b l e p e o p l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . H ’ m . S o h a vi n g a n a l y s e d t h e e v e n t s ,
a s y o u s a y, y o u r vi e w i s t h a t P r e si d e n t Z u m a w o u l d h a v e
g e n u i n e l y b ro u g h t y o u b a c k i n t o g o v e r n m e n t b u t s o m e w h e r e
somehow you were found not to do what he may have
20

e x p e ct e d ?

Maybe

we

should

take

an

a d j o u rn m e n t ,

Mr

P r e t o ri u s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s, C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k l e t u s t a ke a n a d j o u rn m e n t .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I a m so r ry.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . I t i s f i n e , a m b a s s a d o r. S o m e t i m e s
Page 161 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
I am ...[intervenes]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a i r, w e h a ve a w a y t o g o .

I am

q u i t e h a p p y t o st a y a s l o n g a s n e c e s s a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

But it will take a while and I do not

t h i n k i t i s i d e a l t o c u t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. N o , n o , n o . I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : We c a n co n t i n u e , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s.

N o , I t h i n k l e t u s g i v e yo u a b o u t t e n

minutes and we will continue.

We w i l l a d j o u r n f o r t e n

m i n u t e s. We a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, l e t u s p r o c e e d .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

A m b a s s a d o r,

you were telling the Chair just before the adjournment that,
as you say in paragraph 44, at the time you were appointed
you had a certain view of what was happening particularly
in regard to the restructuring and then in paragraph 45 you
20

were telling the Chair that with the benefit of hindsight and
in retrospect you developed a certain opinion which you
have given to the Chair that more sinister motives might
have been at play in relation to the constructive dismissals
or the removal of officials with regard to the restructuring
and the like and in paragraph 46 you have placed on
Page 162 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
record what views were.

In other words that there was an

agenda that was required to be pursued in relation to
intelligence services and that you were a stumbling block.
Yo u a n d o t h e r s m i g h t h a v e b e e n s t u m b l i n g b l o c k s i n t h a t
regard.
Of

course,

whether

your

opinion

that

has

been

placed on record here is correct or not, may be proved or
disproved by what happened in the security services after
your departure and you are going to tell the Chair of some
10

factual

incidents

that

you

say

in

paragraph

47

are

t e s t i m o n y t o t h i s a n d s o , C h a i r, t h e f u r t h e r e v i d e n c e o f t h e
Ambassador and hopefully other evidence too, will test that
opinion that was formed in retrospect.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, that is fine, I was about to say that

it is going to be quite important for the Ambassador to at
some stage substantiate his opinion and say the basis for
this opinion is a, b, c, d in terms of facts.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

T h a n k s , C h a i r.

Ye s , i n

paragraph 47 to substantiate on my opinion on what the
intention was and the broader agenda was, I am saying our
experience when raising the national security risk posed by
the activities of the Guptas – I think we are still going to
deal

with

that

–

and

the

parallel

security

structure

e s t a b l i s h e d b y A r t h u r F r a s e r i n PA N 1 h e l p e d w i t h b y m e
Page 163 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
below are testimony to this.
N o w t h e PA N 1 p r o j e c t p r e c e d e s m y b e i n g a p p o i n t e d
into the intelligence service in the SSA.

And number two,

t h e PA N 1 p r o j e c t I f o u n d i t a l r e a d y o n w h e n I j o i n e d t h e
S S A . A c t u a l l y, w h e n b o t h m y s e l f a n d S h a i k j o i n e d t h e S A A
t h e PA N p r o j e c t w a s a l r e a d y o n .
PA N

project

were

towards

the

But the findings of the
end,

they

were

to

be

concluded, and I participated in executive meetings where
the investigators were reporting.
10

So to a very large extent I have got a very clear
picture

of

what

happened

before.

And

later

in

my

testimony I am going to link this paragraph 47 to further
give examples to show my position in paragraph 7.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

B u t I a m a l s o a w a r e , C h a i r,

that there would be other people who had dealt with this
thing more detailed than me that you are still going to hear
their evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y, t h a t i s f i n e b u t I d o n o t w a n t y o u ,

if at all possible – but Mr Pretorius will be in a better
position

because

he

may

already

be

in

possession

of

statem ents or affidavits of other witnesses – I would not
like you to not share with me evidence that is relevant to
what we are talking about if you have personal knowledge
of it on the basis that somebody else will come because
Page 164 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
what if they do not come. So I just put that qualification.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But I must say Mr Pretorius may well, as

the head of the legal team, may well be aware of people
who have supplied statements and are coming but if you
have personal knowledge of matters and they are relevant
to what you are talking about, there would be no reason
why you cannot share that with me.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

Then I would safely say –

t h a n k s , C h a i r, I w o u l d s a f e l y s a y w e w i l l c o m e t o t h e
relevant information.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I t h i n k t h e C h a i r ’ s i n v i t a t i o n

goes a little wider than that.

There is a question that has

arisen, you have given an answer and the Chair needs to
test that answer by relation to – or by examining factual
incidents that might prove or disprove the validity of your
opinion because he sits as an objective inquirer into fact.
So the invitation is, you have placed a thesis, an answer to
the
20

question

what

happened

in

the

security

services

particularly shortly after you left and would this confirm an
attempt

to

manipulate

and

abuse

the

state

security

services for illegitimate gain.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ja.

No, thank you very

much, Advocate, and thanks for leading me into that.

Oh

yes, I can safely say when we left, by the time we left the
Page 165 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
intelligence we could see that it was dying and we were
c o n c e r n e d a n d s o a r e w e u p t i l l t o d a y. T h a t i s n u m b e r o n e .
B u t n u m b e r t w o , I a m r e c o r d , C h a i r, a t t h e f a r m a n d
I am going to use a term which might sound derogatory but
in isiXhosa it is used, but pardon me.

Once or twice I was

addressing the whole membership there, briefing them on
the challenges that I am having as a DG.
CHAIRPERSON:

Membership being membership of the

National Intelligence?
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:
AMBASSADOR

Of the SSA.

S S A , o k a y.
MAQETUKA:

Ye s .

Addressing

and

briefing them on the challenges that we are having and
that we are having problems with this integration because
of stumbling blocks and these are some of the issues that I
raise in my letter to the President, former President, but I
used the term usenkaki.

Now the same, same term – I am

not sure if I capture it in my statement, we had a two day
meeting with the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence
20

– s o r r y, p a r d o n m e , A d v o c a t e , i f I d i d n o t d e a l w i t h t h a t i n
my statement but I am sure you would find it in one of the
statements even if it is the 2018 one, there was a decision
that

was

taken

by

the

Chairperson

of

the

standing

committee because I have been interacting with him on
these issues, these challenges and he then said to me I am
Page 166 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
going to convene a meeting, we will all fly to Pretoria. And
we prepared ourselves for that meeting.

My whole team,

senior managers, including Ambassador Shaik and Njenje,
two day engagement with the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence.
CHAIRPERSON:

Who was the Chair of the committee at

the time?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Cecil Burgess.

Ye s , o k a y.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
was

leading

that

Tw o d a y s i n t e n s i v e a n d I

presentation

over

those

two

days.

U n f o r t u n a t e l y, C h a i r, I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e a c t u a l d a t e s
b u t i t w o u l d b e i n 2 0 11 .

I repeated to them - and literally

all political parties represented, they were in that meeting and we briefed them in detail.

I was doing the talking

m o s t l y b e c a u s e w e d e c i d e d o k a y, n o , n o , n o , n o m o r e .
They say proceed, you know the issues.

But they would

a d d t h e r e a n d t h e r e . Tw o d a y i n t e n s i v e .
I again used the same term to them and I said
20

Honourable Members, usenkaki .

One of the members

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I think you probably will be able to put it

– I think there is an English version for it but I do not
k n o w.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I know there is an Afrikaans

Page 167 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
actually but it is even cruder in Afrikaans but if you do not
mind, I will use it. Let me …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay

or

you

might

just

give

an

e x p l a n a t i o n : Yo u a r e i n t r o u b l e .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y o u a r e i n t r o u b l e .

It meant you are in trouble.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u a r e i n t r o u b l e b u t , y o u

know…
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

I get the point.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

B u t y o u k n o w, i t d o e s n o t

really gel the way it is in Xhosa and in Afrikaans you
know?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Deep trouble.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Deep, deep trouble.

Ja.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

And one of the MPs then

w h o i s a M i n i s t e r n o w, S t e l l a N d a b e n i , a s k e d m e , D G ,
h a y o b a n i , t h a t w e a r e i n a n d I s a i d t o h e r, y e t h u s o n k e , a l l
20

of us who are here, it is our problem that we are in here.
B u t l e t m e j u s t a d d a n d s a y p r e s e n t l y a s w e s p e a k t o d a y, I
c a n s h a r e w i t h y o u i n p r i v a t e , C h a i r, o r A d v P r e t o r i u s , t h i s
morning somebody sent a message saying that we are
swimming in a sewerage.

This morning somebody sent me

an SMS.
Page 168 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
S o a f t e r w e l e f t I c a n s a f e l y s a y – o k a y, l e t m e
a g a i n s a y, a s y o u w o u l d k n o w a n d e v e r y b o d y k n o w s , t h e r e
was the panel review on intelligence that the previous
minister

set

up

to

look

at

the

problems

confronting

intelligence, but nine years after we had already left, eight
years after we left – I left in 2012, I am nine years out of
that system now as we talk.

A review is being made and

we all know what the recommendations of the review was
because obviously the system was not getting better but
10

you look then at what happened after we left.
over?

That is the big question to me.

Who took

Who took over as a

DG after we left?
CHAIRPERSON:

I do not want you to forget the points

you want to make but I want to conclude that meeting of
two days that you had, what was the outcome of that
meeting with the Portfolio Committee.

Yo u t o l d t h e m a l l

the problems, all the challenges, what was the outcome of
that meeting?

Were there any undertakings made and if

so, were they implemented?
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The outcome was we will go

b a c k t o C a p e To w n w h e r e w e d i s c u s s t h e i s s u e s . T h a t w a s
the closing remarks of the Chairperson, Mr Burgess, and
we will get in touch with you, DG, on this situation.
was the – and that was the last.
CHAIRPERSON:

That was the …[intervenes]
Page 169 of 294

That

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

That was the last.

There was no follow-up?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

There was no follow-up.

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

No follow-up to everything.

O k a y, I i n t e r r u p t e d y o u w h i l e y o u

were wanting to look at who followed as DG after you had
left.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

Ye s .

Now we resigned, we

decide no, no, no, there is no point in continuing with this
thing.

We are not wanted here.

It is obvious, nobody is

listening to us. We left 2012.
In no space of time, I do not know which year it
was, guess who is appointed as DG?
an

Acting

DG,

the

now

Of course, there was

Ambassador

S i n k o s e ( ? ) , w e w i l l d e a l w i t h h i m l a t e r.

Dlomo.

He acted for some

t i m e a n d t h e n A r t h u r F r a s e r t o o k o v e r.
p e r s o n w a s h e a d i n g t h e PA N p r o j e c t .

Hennie

The very same

At the time he was

DDG.
20

I asked myself the question, did I know what was
going on there because it is just inconceivable with the
report

–

with

the

report,

but

again

a

report

as

more

s u b s t a n t i a t e d i n t h e b o o k o f J a c q u e s P a u w, t h e w h a t , I d o
not…
CHAIRPERSON:

The President’s Keepers.
Page 170 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR
Detailed.

MAQETUKA:

President’s

Keepers.

I read the book from page 1 to zero and spot on

to what I knew about then based on the briefings and what
have you.

Unbelievable.

I said no, maybe there is also

s o m e t h i n g b i g g e r t h a t w e d i d n o t k n o w o r I d i d n o t k n o w.
How many DGs were there then after us in 2004?
There is an Acting one now for the second year now but
from what I hear from the grapevine, it is not factual, but
what I hear from the grapevine, as this SMS was saying,
10

t h e y a r e i n a s e w e r a g e , t h i n g s a r e n o t g e t t i n g b e t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

So the Portfolio Committee had all the

challenges you told them about said they would go back
and consider the matters and went back but until you left –
by the time you left they had not come back to you to say
what they were going to do about it?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:
AMBASSADOR

N o t h i n g , C h a i r.

Ye s .
MAQETUKA:

Since

those

two

day

meetings, nothing.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
to

the

factual

preliminary

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

part

issue

of

that

we

your

evidence

need

to

Before we get
there

deal

with

is

one

and

that

appears at page 12, paragraph 48 to 51 of your statement.
The

question

is

simply

this,

it

Page 171 of 294

may

be

put

to

you

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
particularly in relation to the evidence you are about to
give in relation to the Gupta investigation that corruption
allegations – and I stress allegations because the Chair
has made no findings yet of State Capture.

Yo u h a v e

heard the evidence given before this Commission, have got
nothing to do with national intelligence.

It is not a matter

of national intelligence. What is your answer to that?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

I

would

disagree,

Chairperson, because as I state in paragraph 48 national
10

security in the context of the white paper is defined as the
maintenance

and

promotion

of

peace,

s t a b i l i t y,

development and progress.

Development and progress,

and

primary

this

should

be

the

objective

of

any

government.
Now what is this development and progress if it is
not, amongst others, the economic development of the
country that would lead to the wellbeing of its citizens from
p o v e r t y, f r o m h u n g e r a n d f r o m w a n t ?
Now if you are going to say what the Commission is
20

looking at corruption, allegations of corruption, and you
come to me and say that should not be a matter of concern
for intelligence, I will have a problem.
Unless, of course, unless – and I think many a time
people

still

see

this

intelligence

military security type intelligence.
Page 172 of 294

in

the

old

paradigm,

I think that is where

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
perhaps people miss the point at times.
also

I

will

not

discard

the

Well, of course,

detractors

of

what

the

Commission intends to do.
CHAIRPERSON:

Of course, it must be so that anyone

who wants to capture the state would very much want to
capture

the

intelligence

structure as well.

c o m m u n i t y,

the

intelligence

I am just thinking, I am not – I have no

experience of intelligence, I am just saying if you seek to
c a p t u r e t h e s t a t e i t d o e s s e e m t o m e t h a t , y o u k n o w,
10

captors would wish to make sure that they do not – the
state does not have an intelligence that would work against
them.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u k n o w, I a m p l e a s e d ,

C h a i r, t h a t t h a t p o s i t i o n c o m e s f r o m y o u a n d i t d o e s n o t
come from me because other people would have said he is
blowing

his

own

trumpet

because

he

comes

from

intelligence.
Of course, when you want to destabilise a country
or when you want to destabilise a people, destroy those
20

institutions that might be a stum bling block to your efforts
and of course intelligence would be one of those.

It would

be one of those.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
evidence,
intelligence

P a r t i c u l a r l y, I p r e s u m e f r o m y o u r

A m b a s s a d o r,
structures

where
to

warn

it

is

the

against

Page 173 of 294

duty

of

the

threats

to

the

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
economy and the well-being of it.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

I

do

not

know

of

any

structure of any government that would do that – that
would

not

do

that

because

intelligence

would

be

the

primary institution that would warn any government on
those threats. I do not know which other. Can Health do it
on threats on the security of the country? Can Treasury do
it when there is corruption that is starting?

That DG

Maqetuka has got a relationship with a known criminal.
10

Treasury would not know that.

It is the Intelligence that

would pick it up first.
It was not accidental as we will come later to show
how we were alerted on this relationship between President
Zuma and the Gupta family.

We will come to that later.

I

think to illustrate that as an example.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
now,

Ambassador.

outcome

of

the

Right.
You

We are about to come to

were

preliminary

going

to

deal

investigations

with

initiated

the
by

yourself, Messrs Njenje and Shaik in relation to the Gupta
20

family.

You deal with that at the bottom of page 12 and on

page 13 of your statement.

Why was that investigation

initiated?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

In my paragraph 52 and also

as both my former colleagues have testified before you,
Chair, initially the Gupta family were of interest to the SAA
Page 174 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
as they had been flagged by the Americans who were
concerned about the Guptas’ interest in the Shiva Uranium
Mine which the Americans believed was financed by Iran.
This was dealt with in the evidence of Ambassador Shaik
before this Commission and I recall you engaged with
Ambassador Shaik quite in detail and I discovered also you
had even more insight into that deal coming from your role
as a judge. You had insights into it.
But also, I should say – I should say with honesty
10

that I had really forgotten even how this thing started.

I

had really, really forgotten how this thing started, what
actually sparked that investigation.

But I agree, Advocate,

this is how – this is what sparked that investigation.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

And then there was the incident

referred to in paragraph 53 involving Minister Mbalula.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yes, 2011, Mbalula.

And

also, let us recall also by then the media was starting to
send red flags about this family. This family, this family.
But also let me share with you, Chair, up till today,
20

if you can bring the two brothers in here, I will not be in a
position to tell you that this is Abdul, this is AJ.

I just do

not – because, number one, I have never met them.

No, I

have

them

never

and

I

had

no

interest

in

meeting

w h a t s o e v e r.
So when you are talking about the Gupta family and you
Page 175 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a s k m e , b y t h e w a y, w h i c h o n e w a s i t w h o w a s i m p l i c a t e d , I
will not be in a position to tell you, but to me same
difference ...[indistinct].

Ye s t h e i n c i d e n t o f M b a l u l a i n t h e

ANC but we will deal with another part that for the first
time came to my attention yesterday when we received the
DA, the affidavit.

Something else popped up when I was

reading those affidavits, and I say oh even this one but we
will come with it when we deal with the affidavits which are
part of the agenda.
10

ADV

PRETORIUS

SC:

Ye s ,

the

responses

to

your

statement.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye b o .

That we have in your file that we

will deal with in due course, from the ANC leadership, but
for the present you say in paragraph 54, and perhaps we
can cut this short by way of introduction, that yourself,
Ambassador Shaik and Mr Njenje discussed the matter of
the Guptas in two contexts; one, the fact that Minister
Mbalula informed the NEC that he had been informed by
20

one

of

the

Gupta

Brothers

that

he

was

about

to

be

a p p o i n t e d a s a M i n i s t e r, t h e o t h e r, t h e i n t e r e s t i n t h e
Uranium Mine which concerned the Americans and that you
came to an agreement in that regard, and you have heard
the evidence of Messrs Shaik and Njenje and generally do
you agree with that evidence.
Page 176 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
Chair

and

it

is

important

Sorry Chair I agree with it
also,

it

is

also

important

...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Well maybe just that agreem ent, the

agreement was to do what?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The agreement was to – it

was actually instructions from Njenje.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

Based on what he had

v e r b a l l y t o l d u s , r e p o r t e d t o a s k t h a t w e p u t i t t h a t w a y.
We then say Njenje the domestic branch must deal with
t h i s m a t t e r.

Dealing with this matter meant do a further

i n v e s t i g a t i o n o n t h i s m a t t e r, b e c a u s e o f t h o s e t w o r e a s o n s ,
why – one, the issue of Mbalula we considered it a very
serious national security risk.
CHAIRPERSON:

Namely that he had said he was told in

advance ...[intervenes]
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

He was told by an outsider

that he was going to be appointed.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A s M i n i s t e r.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

We said no, the second one

which at times is not being emphasized was to protect
President Zuma, because when we said it will tarnish his
relationship with his people, it will tarnish his name, and
mind you at that time we didn’t have the gaps of this
Page 177 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
r e l a t i o n s h i p a n d t h e s e a c t i v i t i e s , b u t t o d a y, 2 0 2 0 , w e c a n
look back and say we were right, that is why I am saying
we were right in having a alerted him, and we were right to
have said that it will tarnish his name.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yo u d e a l w i t h t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 5 4

of your statement, that what you have just related to the
C h a i r.

Paragraph

55

you

talk

of

the

agreement

or

instruction that Mr Njenje should investigate the matter
10

f u r t h e r, w h e r e w a s t h i s d i s c u s s e d ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It was discussed at the

headquarters of the intelligence at what is called the farm
in Pretoria, Delmas Estate.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: In my office.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Wa s i t d i s c u s s e d a t a n y r o u t i n e

meeting?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Ye s

we

had

Monday

meetings, first thing on Monday meeting the top three, that
20

is myself, Mr Njenje and Shaik, we would meet and then
they would report to me new developments as a procedure
and highlight that there is this and this and this, there is
this and this.

It was in this context and through that

mechanism because then from there we would go then to a
broader senior management meeting.
Page 178 of 294

I think it used to

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
start immediately after hours, that is the top three, then we
would meet where the various branches now fall under Mr
Njenje and Mr Shaik would then give their reports, their
situational,

most

what

you,

have

situational
happening

reports,
in

the

development,

foreign

sphere

and
and

happening in the domestic, that’s what would happen in
those meetings, and that’s what happened in that meeting
t h a t I a m r e f e r r i n g , t h e r o u t i n e M o n d a y m e e t i n g C h a i r.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

Having decided Ambassador that

the investigation should be dealt with by Mr Njenje the next
development

in

your statement

is that

you

received

a

s u m m o n s t o a t t e n d a m e e t i n g i n C a p e To w n .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

Would you tell the Chair about that

please.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

At paragraph 56 whilst we

were waiting on Njenje to give a feedback, of course there
was no time, it was going to be an investigation then he
would see it himself based on what he would have scoped.
20

I received in my office a message through my secretary
t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r, w h o w a s o n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r d a y i n C a p e
To w n , I r e m e m b e r i t w a s o n a W e d n e s d a y, b u t I w o u l d n o t
r e m e m b e r t h a t d a t e , I a l m o s t s a i d e v e n t h e y e a r, i t w o u l d
have been 2010 – no I think these things, most of these
t h i n g s h a p p e n e d d u r i n g 2 0 11 , b u t t h e p o i n t i s w e w e r e
Page 179 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
summoned to a meeting by the Minister and we did not
know what the meeting was all about.
CHAIRPERSON:

That is now the three of you?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r s e l f , M o S h a i k . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Myself, Shaik and Njenje.

Ja.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The top three.

So – shall I

proceed?
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s p l e a s e .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

W e p r o c e e d e d t o C a p e To w n

in the office of the Minister holding room had snags like
the Minister was busy with other matters.

Later we then

w e n t i n t o t h e b o a r d r o o m o f t h e M i n i s t e r.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Who was there?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Now at the boardroom first

it was the three of us, we are waiting mos for the Minister
and his delegation. The Minister arrived with his staff, that
i s M r K a h o M a b u n g u , h e i s a c t u a l l y D o c t o r, w h o w a s t h e n
20

the herd of Ministerial services, together with Mr Dennis
Nkozi.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

But we now have another name.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Who is now Ambassador

Dennis Ndlomo, he changed the surname.
was using the name, the surname Nkozi.
Page 180 of 294

At that time, he

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:
AMBASSADOR

Yo u s a y h e i s n o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MAQETUKA:

Ambassador

Dennis

Ndlomo.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ndlomo.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ndlomo.

J a , o k a y.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

He is from – okay that’s not

here, who had – he had just returned from a posting in
Addis Ababa where he had been the herd of the committee
10

for intelligence and security services of Africa, which is an
African Union structure.
Earlier our dispensation talked of the intelligence in
the

c o u n t r y,

the

intelligence

in

the

region

and

the

intelligence in the Continent and we spoke earlier about
the African relations and the thrust thereof.

Now within

the intelligence there were also these developments and by
the way South African Intelligent Services were one of the
prime movers for the creation of this SESA and one of the
strongest supporters of this initiative.
20

That is why we

seconded Dennis to be – I don’t know what designation
there, but he was – he is the herd, I think he is the
D i r e c t o r o f t h a t C o n t i n e n t a l b o d y, a n d s u b s e q u e n t l y l a t e r, I
don’t know whether I was still there or after I had left, a
l a d y, D r P h i n l a U d i t , a l s o a S o u t h A f r i c a n , b e c a m e t h e
herd.
Page 181 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
So South Africa had chaired that structure, so the
type of influence that we had also in a small way within the
Intelligence.
Then the Minister comes into the Boardroom with
these two gentlemen and then Minister opened the meeting
and then he called us that he had called this meeting
because he had been told that Mr Njenje is conducting an
investigation

into

the

relationship

Family and President Zuma.
10

between

the

Gupta

That was the brief, which he

b e l i e v e d i t w a s i r r e g u l a r, i n v e s t i g a t i n g i s i r r e g u l a r.
He paused there and looked around at us to I
believe gauge our reaction.

At that stage I came in and

when I was granted, first I objected on two things, the
primary work I objected to the presence of Mr Mabungu in
t h a t m e e t i n g . H e i s a n a d m i n i s t r a t o r, h e i s n o t s u p p o s e d t o
be involved in operational things and if the Minister had
called this meeting of an investigation, which we knew that
it was an operational thing, he has no room, and there was
a to and fro, to and fro, to and fro, I think basically we
20

were sparring [speaking in vernacular] and the – after
much debate it was finally agreed the Minister conceded
that Kaho Mabungu should – then – but we agreed on
D e n n i s t h a t h e c o u l d s t a y y o u k n o w, a n d m y r a t i o n a l e f o r
agreeing with Dennis it was because I knew that he would
be the one taking notes, can inform the Minister or in case
Page 182 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the Minister you know – so we compromised on that one,
that he should participate.
So then paragraph 60, yes paragraph 60, Minister
Cwele

started,

stated

that

he

objected

to

the

Gupta

investigation because in his view it was not being pursued
bona fide, but was rather being pursued by Mr Njenje in
order to protect his own business interest.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Can we just stop there for a

moment, because the circumstance might illustrate a point
10

y o u w e r e m a k i n g e a r l i e r.

When the Intelligence structure

or Intelligence personnel, senior Intelligence personnel,
alert the Executive to a circumstance which they believe is
significant, a red flag in other words, what in your view
should the executive do?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

The executive should listen

to what his officers is going to report, that is number one.
A n d n o r m a l l y, t h a t i s w h y I s a i d e a r l i e r, e v e n i n t h e c a s e o f
B i l l y M a s e t l a v e r s u s R o n n i e K a s r i l s , t h e r e i s n o M i n i s t e r,
he does not determine what the operations should be.
20

The

operations

start

as

a

result

of

information

and

intelligence that we collect, that alone in this case there
was this intelligence or info – intelligence that was liaised
t o u s b e c a u s e w e h a v e g o t a g r e e m e n t s g l o b a l l y.
So it was not accidental that the Americans came to
us, we co collaborate.
Page 183 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

In any event I interrupted you, I am

sorry Ambassador you were saying, or telling the Chair
about Minister Cwele’s interjection or objection.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

What was he saying?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

He was saying – where

were we, this paragraph?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Paragraph 60.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

Oh paragraph 60, Minister

Cwele stated that he objected to the Gupta investigation
b e c a u s e i n h i s v i e w, t h a t i s h i s v i e w, i t w a s n o t b e i n g
pursued bona fide but was rather being pursued by Mr
Njenje in order to protect his own business interests, which
were in conflict with those of the Guptas.
I objected to this accusation against Mr Njenje,
making it plain that the investigation had not been initiated
by

Mr

Njenje,

but

that

he

had

been

tasked

with

the

investigation by us, as it was the domestic investigation
and he was the herd of the domestic branch.
20

challenged

the

allegation

about

Minister
Mr

then

Njenje’s

to

substantiate

motives

for

I further
on

his

pressing

the

investigation but he failed to do so.
I told the Minister that if he could provide me with
evidence in substantiating of his allegations then Mr Njenje
could be – I will take Mr Njenje off the investigation.
Page 184 of 294

This

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
however

I

explained

investigation

which

was
I

not

insisted

a

reason

was

a

to

stop

legitimate

the
and

perfectly justified official SSA investigation.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Just as a matter of practice if one

of the operatives in an intelligence operation has conflicted
interest or even if there is an alleged conflict of interest
what

is

the

solution,

is

the

solution

to

stop

the

investigation.
AMBASSADOR
10

MAQETUKA:

No,

no,

not

only

an

operative, if there is information that shows that the DG
h a s a m i s d e m e a n o u r, n u m b e r o n e , t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e p e o p l e
w i l l n o t b r i n g t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n t o m e i m m e d i a t e l y, b u t t h e y
will continue investigating.

At times at a correct time then

I would be informed that there is this going on and we have
not been informing you because you are implicated, that is
number one.

Number two what happens also is that as I

have said in this case Minister give me the information on
Njenje, I will take him off this investigation.

It is normal

you see, but up till today he did not do it, he continued
20

with this view and I believe and I said I am not going to –
we

are

not

going

to,

I

am

not

going

to

stop

this

investigation based on your views and what have you.
That

alone

is

not

telling

me

that

I

have

got

information.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well before the Minister told you at this
Page 185 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
meeting that he was objecting to this investigation had he
spoken to either you or Mr Njenje or Ambassador Shaik to
find out more officially what the investigation, what had
given rise to the investigation and so on or had he in the
meeting started by asking the question I hear that there is
an investigation that you are conducting relating to the
relationship between the President and the Guptas, tell me
more about this because I have some concerns but I want
to know what is it about, what is going on, and then after
10

that indicate that he has an objection. Had he done that or
...[intervenes]
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

No he didn’t do that.

He didn’t do that.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

And had he perhaps done

that, perhaps he would have gotten more – he would have
been more rational in his approach had he done that,
because I would have explained to him that no you are
wrong, this is the sequence of this, but I thought the Chair
was going to ask me as to how did he know about the
20

investigation.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I am going to ask you that in a

moment.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Oh, you are going to, I am

s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well somehow it is connected because I
Page 186 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
am – he com es, there’s a m eeting.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And he says he is objecting to an

investigation.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But he has not asked you to confirm

whether there is an investigation, what motivated it and
other information about it, Mr Pretorius?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

Ye s , w e l l l e t ’ s j u s t f o l l o w u p o n t h e

question that the Chair raised. At the meeting the Minister
as

I

understand

your

evidence

Ambassador

expressed

certain views, whether preliminary or otherwise in regard to
the

subject

expressing

matter
those

of

the

views

investigation.
did

he

seek

to

Prior

to

get

an

understanding of your reasons for the investigation?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

No he didn’t.

Did he at any stage during that

meeting seek to do so?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

No he didn’t.

Right.

And then

the

other

question that has arisen, do you know where the Minister
would have received his information firstly that there was
an inquiry and secondly that there was an allegation about
the conflict of interest at the hands of Mr Njenje?
know where he got this information from?
Page 187 of 294

Do you

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Interesting enough Chair

s i n c e 2 0 11 I h a v e h e a r d r u m o u r s w h e r e t h e M i n i s t e r c o u l d
have gotten the – this information about this investigation,
but it was only this year during the appearance of Mr
Njenje.

In

Mr

Njenje’s

transcripts

Mr

Njenje

says

a

member of my team is the one who told the Minister about
this investigation.
Now

I

said

w o w,

but

I

was

expecting

that

the

Commission is going to ask Mr Njenje who is that member
10

of your team, but unfortunately as far as I can recall
neither

did

Advocate

Pretorius

nor

the

Chair

of

the

Commission ask that question.
CHAIRPERSON:

I can tell you the investigations of the

Commission are ongoing.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
confidence,

he

knows who

But Mr Njenje said it in
the

person

is and

knowing

Njenje, the person he is, I am sure a letter that can be sent
to him for clarifying that accom panied by an affidavit, I
don’t think it would be a problem for Njenje.
20

Now I am

also cognisant of the fact that you are pressurised with
time as a Commission, resources I don’t want, I don’t
k n o w, b u t I a m s u r e i t c a n b e d o n e i n a l e t t e r f o r m o r w i l l i t
be an affidavit for him to say who that – but Njenje knows,
because if I tell you who that person is it would be hearsay
t o m e , t h a t i s t h e c a v e a t C h a i r.
Page 188 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Well let me put it this way to you,

b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h i s i s t h e p o i n t r e a l l y A m b a s s a d o r, t h e
o r d i n a r y c h a n n e l o f c o m m u n i c a t i o n t o t h e M i n i s t e r, g i v e n
your position at the time what would that be, who would it
be

that

would

ordinarily

inform

the

Minister

at

an

appropriate time of investigations?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u k n o w o n t h i s m a t t e r i t

would only have been me.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

Ye s , a n d d i d y o u i n f o r m h i m p r i o r

to that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No I did not, because

remember at this stage we had not even received a scrap
of paper from Njenje to say since that Monday meeting
there are developments, no we had not.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

So ...[intervenes]

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

And the protocol is no one

c o u l d h a v e r e p o r t e d t h a t t h i n g t o t h e M i n i s t e r, o t h e r w i s e
that would be a violation of the rules of engagement.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

Ye s , I t h i n k t h a t m i g h t b e t h e p o i n t

because the implication – well not the implication but
consequence of that is that the Minister had spoken to
someone in your team without speaking to you.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s , a n d y o u s e e t h e

damage that it has done, the Minister as the Chair was
asking, had the Minister asked for clarification first from
Page 189 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
me I would have given him a full briefing on what we
a l r e a d y k n o w, e v e n i n t h a t m e e t i n g h a d h e a s k e d f o r
clarification. No he doesn’t.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

How long did that meeting last, can

you recall, including the ...[intervenes]
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
what have you.

Including the snag and

In my recollection we would have a night

i n C a p e To w n , f i v e o ’ c l o c k , h a l f p a s t f o u r, f i v e o ’ c l o c k , s i x
o’clock flight and from the airport we went straight to the
10

1 8 t h f l o o r, t h a t i s w h e r e t h e o f f i c e s o f t h e M i n i s t e r a r e .

My

recollection

my

is

this

meeting

started

late

afternoon,

recollection, because it was not dark when the meeting
started, but of course offices being offices lights would
have been on.
I estimate that that meeting would have started
roundabout half past six, seven and it went on close to
about three hours.

I know I was listening to both the

colleagues because the same question was asked to them.
None of us could be spot on and say it started from this
20

and ended on this time.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

U n f o r t u n a t e l y, I c a n n o t .
What is important in relation to

that meeting is what you concluded about the Minister ’s
attitude to the investigation.
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe before that Mr Pretorius I don’t

remember him covering this particular aspect.
Page 190 of 294

In that

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
meeting I would assume that you did have the opportunity
to

explain

investigation

to

the

and

Minister

what

what

relevant

gave

rise

information

to

the

about

the

investigation in the three hours or so before you concluded.
Did you get that opportunity?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Fruit of the matter Chair is

that there was no opportunity for that.

We w e r e w r a n g l i n g

for a very long time about this so called conflict of interest.
That was number 1. It took hours and hours. Then it would
10

be him coming in on why is this investigation must stop. He
even went further to say this investigation – the other
problem that he is having this investigation is about the
investigation on President Zuma.

That was another thing

but there was no opportunity to actually – to go into the –
into the meat of the problem that he wants no. That is why
in paragraph I said I realise that we are going nowhere with
this meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay Mr Pretorius had just asked you how
that meeting was concluded.
20

Do you want to tell me how

the meeting concluded?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

When I saw that we are not

b e i n g c i v i l a b o u t t h i s m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Making progress.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

T h e n I s a i d t o t h e M i n i s t e r,

we will discuss this matter with the President.
Page 191 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u s e e .

So now we are

appealing now – we are going to appeal now to a higher
a u t h o r i t y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u k n o w.

And at that time

and as I am saying in my report, I was very clear that I am
not going to get instructions from the Minister on this.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: On this investigation.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

We will deal with it with the

President.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

We will report this matter to

the President.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Wa s a n y d i r e c t i n s t r u c t i o n g i v e n t o

you by the Minister to stop the investigation? Did he say so
in so many words?
20

AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Yo u

know

I

have

always

maintained since 2018 I do not recall him saying stop it but
his utterance, his challenges, his interaction was that this
thing must stop. And I think okay let me not talk about what
the other colleagues said.
him saying it must stop.

I really do not recall concretely
But I go further to say even if he

Page 192 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
had said so I would not have stopped the investigation.
Because nonetheless at that time we had not even gotten
something tangible from Njenje except for that indication in
that first meeting.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e n o t a b l e t o s a y h e s a i d t h e

investigation must be stopped because you do not recall
him saying that.

But you say something about what he said

– what you made of it and as I understand it and I just want
you
10

to

confirm

whether

I

understand

your

evidence

c o r r e c t l y. N a m e l y t h a t i n y o u r m i n d i t w a s c l e a r t h a t h e w a s
opposed to the investigation.

In your mind was that the

position?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s t h a t i s m y p o s i t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

But he stated – but he stated

categorically that…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

This

investigation

is

an

agenda of Njenje safeguarding his business interest.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Against the Gupta’s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

That is what I am – that is

what I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t i s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g j a .
Page 193 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : H e m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

H e m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r.

But to

say stop this investigation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t r e c a l l t h a t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No I do not recall it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Now over this long period of the meeting

did he never articulate what business interests of Mr Njenje
he was talking about?
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: I am still curious to hear what
t h i s b u s i n e s s i n t e r e s t u p u n t i l t o d a y.

Up until today as I

have

business

asked

Njenje

what

are

these

interests?

Njenje says, I really do not know what this guy is talking
about. And up until Njenje resigned and I retired and I think
a l s o M o s h e p e I d o n o t t h i n k w e e v e r k n e w.

That is why I

thought maybe it is when the day the Minister come here
maybe he would be in a position to explain himself on this.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

The statement continues to talk of a

subsequent meeting with the former President.

How did

that arise?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ambassador Shaik through

h i s o ff i c e w a s i n s t r u c t e d t o c o m m u n i c a t e a n d t o a r r a n g e a
meeting that we need a meeting with the President to
discuss a burning issue. And we did get a response through
Page 194 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
m y o ff i c e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w i l l b e m e e t i n g u s .

Now

p a r a g r a p h 6 4 I a m s a y i n g t h e r e t h e o n l y d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n
myself and Mo – Mo strongly believes that the meeting with
t h e P r e s i d e n t t o o k p l a c e i n C a p e To w n .

I still maintain up

until today that the meeting took place in Mahlamba Ndlopfu
in Pretoria.
CHAIRPERSON:
say?

What about Mr Njenje?

What does he

Mr Pretorius do you remember what he – what he has

to say?
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : M r N j e n j e ?
CHAIRPERSON: In terms of …
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

I have a note I do not think he was

pressed on that issue.
CHAIRPERSON: Where the meeting with the President took
place.

Or maybe he was not asked.

But in the end, it

w o u l d n o t m a k e a n y d i ff e r e n c e w h e t h e r i t t o o k p l a c e i n
Cape

To w n

or

Pretoria

what

is

more

important

is

the

content.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: The content of it.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Of the discussion.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yo u r s t a t e m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 6 4

again I do not want to put words in your mouth gives a
place in relation to the meeting with the former President.
Page 195 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . H e h a s s a i d t h a t b u t …
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l n o t t h e r e s i d e n c e t h o u g h .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: I say here I firmly believe that
it took place the day after our meeting with Minister Cwele
o n a T h u r s d a y.

O n t h e 1 8 t h F l o o r.

Now it is a matter of

construction here Chair it might confuse this sentence.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Which meeting are you – am I
10

talking about?

Am I talking about the meeting with the

Minister or am I talking the meeting with the President?
And I thought that here in this paragraph I am dealing with
the meeting with the President.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh – ja probably – probably you are – well
t h e o ff i c e i s o n t h e 1 8 t h F l o o r I a m s u r e a r e o ff i c e s o f t h e
Minister not the President.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No not the President.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : B u t b e c a u s e t h e o ff i c e s a t t h e
20

1 8 t h F l o o r a r e t h e o ff i c e s o f t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e a n d o f t h e
M i n i s t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I n P r e t o r i a ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : I n C a p e To w n .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l o n t h i s p a g e …
Page 196 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON: So the sentence might…
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I s a c o n f u s i n g d r a f t i n g e r r o r.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It is a drafting error where I

w i l l p u t i t r e a l l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja so – but that can be corrected by a

supplementary affidavit.

We – w h a t i s m o r e i m p o r t a n t i s

the content of that discussion at that meeting with the
President. Do you want to tell us about that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Then the meeting started with
10

the President and as protocol is expected I would lead this.
Then I would do the introduction and in this case, I gave the
President highlights on why we asked for this meeting.

I

briefed the President about our meeting with the Minister
w h a t h a d t a k e n p l a c e i n C a p e To w n .

How the meeting

ended hence we are coming to explain ourselves to him.
Right?

And I went on to say to the President the details of

this that we are going to be telling you about Mr President
would be done by Mr Njenje.

Because he is the one

heading the operation you see. But again my – by that time
20

he had not given us a feedback but I know that they were
continuing developing that scoping into the report.

And Mr

Njenje took the President through this investigation and the
– the Americans and the Mbalula thing and all those things
our meetings and – but we decided why we decided to
undertake this investigation.

Tw o f o l d 1 . B a s e d o n t h e

Page 197 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
intelligence that was liaised to us by the Americans but
number 2 our concern about his relationship – his – his
image being tarnished by this relationship.

Then as Mo –

no let me say then the President went into detail about this
relationship. How it started. It was a long, long, long – but
I was not – I must say that part was only pricked to me in
the evidence of Mo Shaik.

Because what you might not

know Chair and I was telling the investigator – your legal
team up until the day when they came to make their – when
10

they

appeared

in

the

commission,

we

have

communicated on what the reports are all about.

never

Perhaps

t h a t i s a l s o t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u s e e t h e s e s e e m i n g l y.

We

never communicated but Mo explained in more detail how
the President explain this relationship with the – with the
G u p t a f a m i l y. A n d I a g r e e d b e c a u s e i t s a i d o h j a M o i s r i g h t
I r e m e m b e r.

But as I say as Njenje was making the

presentation briefing the President and as I say I have
worked with the President Zuma for a very long time.
know him.
20

I know his body language.

like something you can see.
listening – was listening.

I

When he does not

The President was quiet.

Not

I remember the President asking

me DG can I get a copy of that report.

I am not sure if I

capture that part here.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o s a y t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 6 6 .
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

And

Page 198 of 294

I

said

Mr

President

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
unfortunately not – you cannot.
me.

And he did not argue with

And the reasons why I said that it was not out of

disrespect.

He is implicated in the report.

Now how can I

give him the report? But perhaps through you advocate this
is another area that might have to be looked in your report
if you might allow me?

It is that as this part of our report

shows when we did not find joy with the President where
else could we have appealed to?
1. Our laws I tried to check, look at the Intelligence –
10

Intelligence Legislations it is quiet.

Now is that not

dangerous?
There has to be – there has to be a guideline because
conflicts amongst human beings will always arise and you
would need an arbitrator but in this case, there was no
arbitrator that we could re – appeal to.
amongst ourselves.

It went on and on

Now after this meeting discussing

whether to.
CHAIRPERSON:

Before – before you discuss you tell me

about what happened after – after the meeting.
20

Having you

exhausted what you want to tell me about the discussion
during the meeting with the President?
said

he

told

you

about

the

history

b e t w e e n h i m s e l f a n d t h e G u p t a f a m i l y.

He told you – you
of

the

relationship

Yo u t o l d m e t h a t h e

asked whether he could get the report that was being used
and you said no and you did not mean any disrespect and
Page 199 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
he did not argue with you when you said no.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No he did not.
CHAIRPERSON:

Other than that, what was discussed and

what is your recollection of how long this meeting took
place? Again, that is just for the completeness otherwise…
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

That

meeting

taken more than two hours to be honest.

would have

It would have

taken – the President was very relaxed and whenever we
are going to make a presentation to him, he would always
10

be – he would always be kind.
CHAIRPERSON:

He will give you time.

He will give you

time.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, no, no I would never

blame the President when he comes with us.
CHAIRPERSON: He would not rush you.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

He would not rush us, he

would not shout.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

No, no.

It would have gone

more than two hours that meeting.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Well have a look at your statement

y o u g i v e a d i ff e r e n t v e r s i o n t h e r e . P a r a g r a p h 6 6 .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

66.

Although the meeting

was a long one and lasted between one to two hours the
President said virtually nothing during our briefing. After the
Page 200 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
briefing the former President was very defensive.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Alright you have – you do not need

to go on. It is just in relation to the duration.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h o s p o k e i n t h e m e e t i n g .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : O k a y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: It is correct.
ADV PRETORIUS SC: Did the President during the meeting
10

mention the alleged conflict of interest?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A t t h e h a n d s o f N h l a n h l a ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No.

The President raised

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

I take it that when you were briefing him

about how your meeting with the Minister had gone the
previous day you told him that the Minister had said there
was a conflict in terms of business?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : A b s o l u t e l y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t h e d i d n o t s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t

that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

He did not and to respond to

you Advocate the President did not raise the matter of the
Page 201 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
conflict of interest by Njenje.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The Chair asked you about the

content of the meeting.

Is there anything that you wish to

add about what was said or what was not said at the
meeting?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

No

there

would

not

be

anything Advocate.
CHAIRPERSON:

Did the President express a view either

way on whether – on whether the investigation should stop
10

or should be pursued or did he express a view either way?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No he did not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d i d n o t e x p r e s s a v i e w.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Except from just explaining

this long explanation about the relationship how it started
and bla, bla, bla all those things. No he did not.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

That report that Mr Njenje referred

to during the course of that meeting what was the nature of
20

the report?

Wa s i t a f i n a l r e p o r t o r w a s i t a n i n t e l l i g e n c e

report?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s i t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No.

And as I – as I keep on

saying if I recall quite well it was even notes. It was not our
Page 202 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
standard high reports.

He was reading from notes that we

had – he had.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u e v e r s e e a r e p o r t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No I have never seen this –

these scoping reports up until the time I left in 2012.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s a s c o p i n g r e p o r t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: A scoping report is a process
where

investigators

they

would

scan

environment based on a number of factors.
10

a

particular

Factor number

1 might be it is based on intelligence that we have from
sources.

2 it is information or intelligence that we have –

that has been liaised with us by other services. 3 it is what
we call open source right.

Hence, I was saying earlier the

intelligence that we collect is not necessarily all secret.
Open source we would scan an environment and they would
come up with a scoping report that would say based on this
information that we have here we believe that there might
b e d a n g e r. A n d i t g o e s s t a g e s b y s t a g e s – s t a g e s b y s t a g e s
and this one is a similar one Advocate.
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

Did you draw any conclusion

at the end of that meeting as to the former President’s
attitude to the investigation?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ja.

The conclusion that I

draw – that I drew there it is my opinion again it is not
factual was that:
Page 203 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
1. The President had already been briefed by Minister
Cwele and
2. The President had bought the story coming from Cwele
but and again there and I must respect him for that,
h i s s m a r t n e s s h e d i d n o t s a y, s t o p t h i s . N o h e d i d n o t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Why do you say – why did you conclude

that – and the President bought the story from Minister
Cwele because you said the President did not say anything
about the conflict of interest relating to Mr Njenje?
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Reason is that after that

m e e t i n g i t b e c a m e v e r y d i ff i c u l t f o r u s t o g e t a n a p p o i n t m e n t
with the President.

That is number 1.

Number 2 the issue

of that report not for once did the President ask me or ask
us as to whether how far have, we gone with that report?
CHAIRPERSON:
concluded
Cwele.

that

We l l l e t u s s t a r t w i t h w h e n y o u s a y y o u
he

had

bought

this

What are you talking about?

story

from

Minister

And I am asking that

because my question was based on thinking that you were
saying
20

that

he

had

bought

the

story

about

conflict

of

interest but not.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON:

That – it looks like that is not what you

talk about?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, no I am not talking about

it.
Page 204 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

What is the story that you say he – you

thought he bought from Mr Cwele?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

From Mr Cwele.

t h a t t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n i s i r r e g u l a r.

The story

That number 2 the

inference by Mr Cwele that this investigation must stop.
And the President not asking us of course he did not have
to ask us are you continuing or are you not continuing with
this investigation?

[African language] which actually when

you think of it based on your question Chair it actually
10

served exactly what Minister Cwele wanted.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l c e r t a i n l y …
CHAIRPERSON:

Well you put in a little bit of Isi-Xhosa

there. Do you want to just say the gist of the Isi-Xhosa part
that you – that you put in Ambassador?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Did I use Ambassador?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Did I use President?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d [ A f r i c a n l a n g u a g e ]
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : O h I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y. O h
20

gosh.

It ended there.

that investigation.

Between us and the President on

A n d a c t u a l l y, C h a i r I c a n s a f e l y s a y t h a t

investigation ended there in terms of its formality whether
should we continue or what?

Because after that meeting

with the President then that we started engaging ourselves
as individuals and that this thing of us being here is not
Page 205 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
working. And by the way the first person to indicate clearly
that no you know I am tired of this thing I cannot stand it
anymore, I am going to leave this institution is Gibson
Njenje.

Now what – I do not know whether I deal with it in

my report.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I am sorry again. I know you want to
deal with a certain point but I would like us to finish with the
meeting.

Now we have finished with the meeting but I am

looking at the conclusion that you drew from the meeting.
10

N o w j u s t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t l y.
So when you say the President or you concluded that the
President had bought Minister Cwele’s story you – did you
say you meant that the President was going along with the
idea that the investigation was irregular?

Yo u w i l l h a v e t o

say yes, ja so that is it ja.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s , y e s C h a i r. Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Now – now my difficulty with that with you
making that conclusion is that you say he did not ask you
anything
20

about

the

conflict

of

interest

whereas

as

I

understand what you – your evidence the basis or Minister
Cwele to say the investigation was irregular was that in his
view Minister Njenje was pursuing his business interest,
there was a conflict of interest?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So if the President did not ask anything
Page 206 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
about this conflict of interest how do you say he bought this
story that this investigation was irregular?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Did not want – he did not

want to implicate himself lest he be accused later that he
interfered with an investigation.

He was smart in doing

that. Not to ask for it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well it may – maybe your use of the –

your reference to him having bought the story is what is
confusing me.
10

A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

What you said quite clearly was that

Minister Cwele was opposed to this investigation.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Are you able to say the same thing about

the President or are not able to say the same thing?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
can

say

that

the

No it is the same that one.

President

was

opposed

to

I

that

investigation.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he ever say it at that meeting?
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No he did not.
CHAIRPERSON: I do not want this investigation.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : N o h e d i d n o t s a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

So what is your basis for saying he was

opposed?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

My basis Chair that he never

Page 207 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
had interest to even ask us or ask me about that – that
investigation anymore. It ended up there.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l

what

would

you

say

to

the

proposition or the possibility that he might not have wanted
to

ask

you

after

the

meeting

anything

about

the

investigation because he was being investigated? He was –
he was the subject of the investigation insofar as what was
being investigated was the relationship between himself and
the Gupta – the Gupta’s?
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Correctly I would agree with

you on that one also.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I would agree also with you

on that one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t i f y o u a g r e e w i t h t h a t t h e n y o u –
i t s e e m s t o m e y o u ca n n o t , a t t h e s a m e t i m e , s a y t h e f a ct
t h a t h e d i d n o t a s k y o u i s a b a si s t o s a y h e d i d n o t w a n t t h i s
i n v e st i g a t i o n .

It

se e m s

to

me

that

you

cannot

have

both...have both.
20

AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

We l l , C h a i r.

I am not going

t o d e b a t e t h a t o r s a y I d i sa g r e e w i t h y o u a n d t h a t o r
a n yt h i n g . N o , n o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st p r o b a b l y g u e s s, y e s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : N o , I u n d e r st a n d f u l l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 208 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I u n d e r st a n d y o u r p o i n t f u l l y,
f u l l y C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

I w i l l n o t d i s a g re e w i t h y o u

on that one because he is implicated.

He might have also

t a k e n a d e ci si o n t h a t : “ N o , b e c a u s e I a m i m p l i ca t e d o n t h i s
t h i n g , l e t m e n o t a s k t h e s e f e l l o w s. . . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . H ’ m . Ye s.
AMBASSADOR
10

MAQUETUKA:

No,

I

am

not

going

to

d i s a g r e e w i t h yo u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

A m b a s s a d o r, y o u cl e a r l y, a c c o r d i n g

t o y o u r st a t e m e n t a t l e a st , d r e w c e rt a i n c o n cl u si o n s.

The

q u e st i o n i s w h e t h e r t h e C h a i r i s i n t h e s a m e p o si t i o n t o d r a w
t h e s a m e co n cl u si o n .
A n d t h a t i s w h y h e a s k e d yo u o n w h a t g r o u n d s d i d y o u
draw

the

c o n cl u si o n

that

you

did

about

the

former

p r e si d e n t ’s a t t i t u d e t o w a r d s t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i n t o t h e G u p t a
re l a t i o n s h i p , ri g h t ?
20

A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i t se e m s t h a t a l l yo u c a n s a y i s,
you

drew

meeting.
again.

that

c o n cl u si o n

by

what

happened

after

that

I n o t h e r w o r d s, h e n e v e r s p o k e t o y o u a b o u t i t
A n d t h a t h a s b e e n cl a ri f i e d t o y o u t h a t t h a t i s

p e r h a p s n o t a s o l i d g r o u n d f o r t h a t c o n cl u si o n .
Page 209 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

We l l , I w o u l d c o n c e d e t o

t h a t . I w i l l n o t c h a l l e n g e t h a t p o si t i o n .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

T h e q u e st i o n r e m a i n s, w a s

t h e r e a n yt h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e m e e t i n g t h a t a l l o w e d y o u
t o d r a w t h a t c o n cl u si o n ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: Not that I can recall.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : T h i s n o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h , I a m s o r r y M r P r e t o ri u s.

I i n t e rr u p t e d

y o u a t t h e t i m e w h e n y o u w e r e sa y i n g , a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g t h e
t h r e e o f y o u st a rt e d t a l ki n g t o o n e a n o t h e r a b o u t . . . I t h i n k
y o u w e r e s a yi n g y o u w e re b e i n g w a n t ed o r w h a t e v e r o r
w h a t e v e r.
I j u st w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t M r P r e t o ri u s r e m e m b e r s
t h a t yo u w e r e . . . y o u h a d a p o i n t t h a t yo u w a n t e d t o m a k e
t h e r e . E i t h e r h e c a n l e t y o u d e a l w i t h i t n o w o r l a t e r.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

It

would

a ct u a l l y

be

a

c o n t i n u a t i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e a n s w e r t o t h a t ? O k a y.
20

AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

Of the

answer that was

p o se d b y t h e A d v o c a t e P r e t o r i u s.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a t i s f i n e .

Ye s, o ka y.

Continue

w i t h y o u r a n s w e r t o h i s q u e st i o n .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

C a n y o u j u st p l e a se r e p e a t

t h e q u e st i o n , a d v o c a t e ?
Page 210 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e i n ve s t i g a t i o n

after this meeting?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: After this meeting?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: No, after this meeting, as far
a s I r e c a l l , t h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n w a s n e ve r d i s c u s s e d e ve n
a m o n g st o u r s e l v e s. W h y n o t ? O n e , w e a g r e e d , t h e t h r e e o f
u s, w e c o n cl u d e d t h a t i t l o o k s l i k e w e a r e n o t w a n t e d i n t h i s
i n st i t u t i o n .
10

I f a p r e si d e n t , w h o i s t h e p r i m e t a r g e t o f o u r p r o d u ct ,
d o e s n o t h e l p u s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n , t h e r e i s n o
w a y w e w i l l g o w i t h t h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n . T h a t i s. . .
We d i s c u s s e d t h a t a m o n g st o u r s e l v e s, m e a n d N j e n j e .
N j e n j e a n d S h a i k. S h a i k. . . t h e t h r e e o f u s, a n d i t w a s t h e n i t
b e ca m e cl e a r t o u s t h a t “ N o , w e a r e n o t w a n t e d i n t h i s
o r g a n i s a t i o n ”. N o w. . . a n d t h e n . . . i f I m a y p ro c e e d ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
AMBASSADOR

[ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]

MAQUETUKA:

D u ri n g

this

p e ri o d

n o w,

e v e r yt h i n g w a s i n t h e m e d i a a b o u t t h e re l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n
20

t h e m i n i st e r a n d h i s To p 3 .

T h a t i s a l l o v e r.

And it was

d u ri n g t h a t t i m e t h a t b o t h t w o c o l l e a g u e s, N j e n j e f i r st , i s
o ff e r e d a n o u t si d e p o st i n g a s a n a m b a s sa d o r.
N o w N j e n j e r e p o rt s t o m e a b o u t t h i s b u t I w a s c a l l e d b y
t h e m i n i st e r a n d t h e m i n i st e r w a n t s t o p o st m e a s a n
a m b a s s a d o r.
Page 211 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A n d I s a i d t o t h e m i n i st e r: “ N o , I a m n o t a n a m b a s s a d o r
t y p e ”. A n d I t h i n k h e r e p e a t e d i t i n h i s. . . M o S h a i k, t h e sa m e
t h i n g a n d m o re d e a l t i n d e t a i l w i t h h i s si t u a t i o n , w h e r e h e
w a s e ve n c a l l e d b y t h e p re s i d e n t a n d o ff e re d t h e p o st o f
going...
So

we

are

d e ve l o p m e n t s.
N j e n j e d e ci d e d :

b ri e f i n g

one

another

about

these

U n t i l n o w i t w a s. . . i t w a s O ct o b e r 2 0 11 w h e n
“ N o , I a m r e si d i n g n o w ”.

And Njenje then

l e f t , 2 0 11 , O ct o b e r i f I a m co r r e ct i n t e r m s o f t h e d a t e .
10

B u t . . . n o w t h i s i s a p r o b l e m n o w.

So we discuss the...

a n d w e a g r e e a m o n g st o u r s e l v e s t h a t : “ G e n t l e m a n . . . ” I sa i d
t o t h e m : “ G e n t l e m e n , re a l l y, r e a l l y i f N j e n j e w a n t s t o l e a ve , I
c a n n o t st o p h i m . I f M o w a n t s t o l e a v e , I c a n n o t st o p h i m ”.
T h a t i s t h e p o si t i o n t h a t w e t o o k a m o n g st o u r s e l v e s, t h a t
e a ch a n d e v e r y i n d i vi d u a l s e e h o w h e r e so l v e d h i s o w n
p o si t i o n .
N o w o n m y p a rt C h a i r, w e a r e t a l k i n g o f 2 0 11 , O ct o b e r.
N o w t h i s i s t h e p e r i o d w h e r e I a l s o sa i d t o m y s e l f :

“No, this

t h i n g i s n o t w o r ki n g f o r m e ”.
20

T h a t i s w h e n . . . i n N o ve m b e r, I st a rt e d t o sa y n o . . . O k a y,
l e t m e s a y t w o t h i n g s.

One, January 2012, I was going to

re a c h re t i r e m e n t a g e b e c a u se I w a s t u r n i n g 6 0 . T h a t i s o n e .
T h e c o n t r a ct t h a t I h a d a s a D G w a s g o i n g t o e x p i r e i n
O ct o b e r. . . n o , n o .

I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n S e p t e m b e r, t h e

m o n t h i n w h i c h I w a s a p p o i n t e d , ri g h t .
Page 212 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON: September 2012?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: September 2012.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

Ja n u a r y

would

be

my

re t i r e m e n t a g e a n d I sa i d I a m n o t p r o c e e d i n g w i t h t h i s t h i n g
b e yo n d m y re t i r e m e n t a g e .

I w i l l b e l e a vi n g g o v e rn m e n t .

That is number one.
B u t w h a t I a m g o i n g t o d o , I a m g o i n g t o w ri t e . . . I a m
g o i n g t o b e f a i r t o t h e s y st e m .
10

that

would

go

to

the

I a m g o i n g t o w ri t e a re p o rt

p re si d e n t

and

explain

myself

the

re a s o n s w h y I i n t e n d t o r e si g n .
T h a t w a s t h e c u l m i n a t i o n o f t h i s re p o rt t h a t i s i n t h e
p a c k.

A n d n o w I g a v e t h e p re si d e n t 1 4 - d a y s.

Now again,

you might ask myself... ask me, why 14-days?
I t i s p r a ct i c e C h a i r i n t h e p u b l i c s e r v i ce f o r D G ’s a n d
s e n i o r p e o p l e w i t h r e s p o n si b i l i t i e s t o g i v e t h e p o l i c y m a k e r s
t i m e t o c o n si d e r. Th a t i s w h y, i f y o u r e a d m y l e t t e r t o t h e
p r e si d e n t i n t h a t r e p o rt , i t i s a n i n t e n t i o n t o r e si g n a n d I a m
a s ki n g t h e p r e si d e n t t o l o o k a t t h e i s s u e s t h a t I a m r a i si n g .
20

B u t a f t e r 1 4 -d a y s i f I a m n o t g e t t i n g a n y re s p o n s e , I w i l l
b e r e si g n i n g .
f u rt h e r.

It

T h a t i s w h a t I s a i d i n t h e l e t t e r.
went

f u rt h e r.

In

an

But it went

engagement

with

the

m i n i st e r. . . I c a n n o t re c a l l n o w. . . n o , n o , n o .
H e r e c e i v e d a c o p y o f t h a t r e p o rt .
o f t h a t r e p o rt .

Now

I co p i e d h i m a c o p y

w h e t h e r h e d i s cu s s e d i t
Page 213 of 294

with the

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
p r e si d e n t o r b l a h - b l a h - b l a h , I d o n o t k n o w.
B u t t h e re s p o n s e n o w, I r e m e m b e r n o w, i t ca m e f ro m t h e
m i n i st e r t o s a y, “ I g o t i n t o d i s c u s si o n s w i t h t h e p r e si d e n t
a b o u t y o u r r e si g n a t i o n a n d t h e p r e si d e n t i s w i l l i n g t o re l e a s e
y o u ”.
A n d t h e n w e a g r e e d w i t h t h e m i n i st e r. A n d I sa i d t o h i m
I st i l l w a n t t o b e f a i r o n t h e p r o c e s s.

I w o u l d st i l l w a n t t o

c o n t i n u e u p t o m y r e t i r e m e n t t i m e w h i c h i s Ja n u a r y.

And I

a m p re p a re d t o t a k e a D e c e m b e r l e a v e w h i l st y o u a r e
10

d e ci d i n g o n r e p l a c e m e n t a n d w h a t h a v e y o u , b e c a u s e I d o
not want to be seen to be abandoning the ship.
I could have done.

A n d i t w a s a g re e d , ri g h t ?

But it is

i n t e r e st i n g i f y o u l o o k m e d i a c u t t i n g s, h o w t h e m e d i a b y t h e n
w a s r e p o rt i n g o n t h i s t h i n g , t h a t N j e n j e h a s r e si g n e d .
T h e n e xt p e r s o n i s g o i n g t o b e M o S h a i k a n d t h e n
ultimately it is going to be the DG.

T h e re i s a c u t t i n g h e r e

t h a t a ct u a l l y s a y s t h a t h e w i l l b e a l l o w e d t o l e a v e , t o t a k e a
l o n g -t e rm l e a v e , s o t h a t b y t h e t i m e h i s r e t i r e m e n t a g e t i m e ,
h e i s n o t b a c k i n t o t h e s y st e m .
20

Now where could that information have come from?
W h e r e w o u l d t h e m e d i a h a v e g o t t e n t h a t ? I t i s j u st t h a t I d o
n o t w a n t t o w a st e y o u r t i m e a n d g o i n t o t h a t p a rt i c u l a rl y.
T h e r e i s a b i g p i ct u r e . I t h i n k i t w a s t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: City Press?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : C i t y P r e s s.
Page 214 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : A n d I w a s w e a ri n g t h e s a m e
t i e , b y t h e w a y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
s u r e a b o u t t h e s h i rt .

. . . i n t h a t p i ct u r e .

I am not

I t i s p o s si b l e i t w a s t h e s a m e s h i rt .

It

i s p o s si b l e i t w a s t h e s a m e su i t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : F r o n t p i ct u r e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

B u t o f c o u r se , b y t h e n I

g o t . . . i t w a s a g r e e d , I a m o n l e a v e a n d w h a t e v e r.

I kn e w

c o m e J a n u a ry, I w i l l j u st g o t h e re t o p a c k m y t h i n g s a n d t o
s a y g o o d b y e t o t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e S e r vi c e .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A m b a s s a d o r, c a n I t a k e y o u t h r o u g h a
s e q u e n c e , p l e a s e o f p r o p o si t i o n s ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e e vi d e n c e o f M e s s r s N j e n j e a n d

S h a i k a n d i n d e e d w h a t y o u s a y i n y o u r st a t e m e n t , i t c e rt a i n l y
20

c re a t e s t h e i m p r e s si o n t h a t i t w a s y o u r v i e w t h a t t h e r e w a s
i n t e rf e re n c e

either

f ro m

the

f o rm e r

p r e si d e n t

in

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n . A n d I t h i n k i n f a i r n e s s t o t h e p r e si d e n t , f o r m e r
p r e si d e n t , i t n e e d s t o b e t e st e d .
T h e f i r st p o i n t i s t h a t yo u s a i d i n y o u r e vi d e n c e i n
re l a t i o n t o t h e m e e t i n g w i t h t h e m i n i st e r t h a t r e g a r d l e s s o f
Page 215 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
h i s vi e w i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e c o n f l i ct o f i n t e r e st , t h a t y o u h a d
b e e n o r d e r e d t o st o p t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n , y o u w o u l d h a v e
d i s re g a rd e d t h a t a n d co n t i n u e w i t h t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

No, no.

No, not as a result

o f t h e c o n f l i ct o f . . . o n t h e co n f l i c t o f i n t e r e st , I m a d e i t
c a t e g o ri c a l l y cl e a r a n d I s a y i t i n t h e r e p o rt .

I sa i d t o t h e

m i n i st e r h e n e e d s t h e i n f o rm a t i o n .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
meeting
10

that

would

Ye s, b u t t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g i n t h a t
have

persuaded

you

to

st o p

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: No.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : F o r w h a t e v e r re a s o n .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: No.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e m e e t i n g w i t h t h e p r e si d e n t , a s

w e k n o w u n d e r st a n d , n o t h i n g w a s s a i d d u ri n g t h a t m e e t i n g
t h a t l e d yo u t o c o n cl u d e t h a t h e w a s o p p o s e d , t h a t i s t h e
f o r m e r p r e si d e n t , t o t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e f a ct t h a t t h e f o r m e r p r e si d e n t d i d
20

n o t s p e a k t o y o u a f t e r w a rd s, w e h a v e se e m t o h a ve a g r e e d
t h a t t h a t i s n o t a re l e v a n t c o n si d e r a t i o n t o c o n c l u d e t h a t t h e
f o r m e r p r e si d e n t w a n t e d t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n t o st o p o r h a d a n y
p a rt i c u l a r a t t i t u d e t o w a r d s t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n .
So

the

q u e st i o n

that

then

a r i se s i s,

why

after

the

i n v e n t i o n o f Mi n i st e r C e l e , t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n a p p e a r n o t t o
Page 216 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
h a ve c o n t i n u e d .
Is the reason for that not really that your relationship
and the relationship of Mr Njenje and Shaik had broken down
w i t h t h e m i n i st e r, y o u l e f t a n d t h e r e w a s n o o n e t o c o n t i n u e
t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n o r h a d a n y i n t e re s t i n t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n ?
I s t h a t n o t t h e r e a l e x p l a n a t i o n f o r t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n
h a vi n g c o m e t o a h a l t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

T h e . . . a s I sa y, a f t e r t h a t

m e e t i n g w i t h t h e p r e si d e n t , w e a l l r e a l i s e d a n d c o n cl u d e d
10

t h a t t h i s t h i n g o f u s b e i n g t h e r e i s n o t w o r ki n g .
A n d y o u a r e c o rr e ct a d vo c a t e , t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p a n d t r u st
w i t h t h e m i n i st e r h a d b r o k e n , c o m p l e t e l y b ro k e n , b u t o u r
c o n ce r n o u t si d e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n n o w. . .
B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r, t h e r e a so n s f o r m y r e si g n a t i o n , a s I
p u t i t ve r y cl e a r a n d i n d e t a i l i n t h i s r e p o rt C h a i r, w a s n o t
o n l y b e c a u s e o f t h a t i n v e st i g a t i o n .

I h a v e c a t e g o ri s e d

i s s u e s.
For

example,

there

was

no

common

u n d e r st a n d i n g

b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d t h e m i n i st e r i n t e rm s o f h o w w e s h o u l d
20

p r o c e e d w i t h t h e i n t e g r a t i o n o f t h e s e r v i ce .
A n d I h a v e g i v e n n u m b e r o f co r re s p o n d e n c e , e m a i l s,
l e t t e r s t h a t I a m w ri t i n g t o t h e m i n i st e r o n t h i s a n d t h i s, t h i s
a n d t h i s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t I w i l l c e rt a i n l y b e co r re c t b y t h e

t e a m b e h i n d m e , a m b a s sa d o r t h a t a s I r e a d t h e l e t t e r o f
Page 217 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
re s i g n a t i o n , t h a t N o v e m b e r l e t t e r, i t s a i d n o t h i n g a b o u t a n y
a l l e g e d i n t e rf e r e n c e w i t h a n y i n v e st i g a t i o n .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

A s I s a y. . . n o , n o .

That is

c o r r e ct .
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

And

that

the

reasons

for

your

re s i g n a t i o n . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

N o , t h a t i s c o r r e ct .

That is

c o r r e ct a d v o c a t e .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
10

AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

T h a t i s w h y I a m s a yi n g , t h e

re a s o n . . .

was

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n

not

the

only

issue

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t i t w a s n o t m e n t i o n e d i n yo u r

re s i g n a t i o n l e t t e r a t a l l .

O n e m i g h t h a v e e x p e ct e d t h a t h a d

a ce rt a i n p r e si d e n t t o l d y o u t o s t o p a n i n ve st i g a t i o n b y
i m p l i c a t i o n , t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m e n t i o n e d i n yo u r l e t t e r.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : We h a d . . . i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n
a w a st e o f t i m e f o r m e t o h a v e m e n t i o n e d i t i n t h a t l e t t e r
b e ca u s e , n u m b e r o n e , t h e p r e si d e n t k n e w t h e f a c t s a b o u t
20

that and my position on it.

I was dealing with the broader

issues that he may not have understood.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
L o o k,

but

that

is

re a l l y

Th a t i s w h y I w o u l d f i n d . . .

s a yi n g

that

the

matter

of

i n t e r p r e t a t i o n n o w a s t o w h e t h e r i s i t r e a l l y, r e a l l y i m p o rt a n t
Page 218 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
that I should have mentioned it in the email?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

N o , I a m n o t s a yi n g w h a t y o u s h o u l d

h a ve d o n e . C e rt a i n l y, a m b a s s a d o r, I w o u l d n o t d o t h a t . I a m
j u st s a yi n g i t w a s n o t s a i d . T h a t i s a l l .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s , y e s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

But the proposition I am putting to

y o u i s s o m e w h a t d i ff e r e n t .

T h e r e a s o n f o r t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n

a n d i t a p p e a r s f r o m o u r i n v e st i g a t i o n s, a t l e a st , t h a t t h e
i n v e st i g a t i o n
10

did

not

continue

into

the

Guptas

and

the

that

the

G u p t a s ’ r e l a t i o n sh i p w i t h t h e f o r m e r p r e si d e n t .
The

reason

for

that

may

well

have

been

re l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n yo u r s e l f a n d M r N j e n j e a n d S h a i k h a d
b r o k e n d o w n . T h e r e w a s a c o n st r u ct i v e d i sm i s s a l .
Yo u w e r e m o v e d o u t a n d o t h e r s w e re p u t i n a n d t h e
i n v e st i g a t i o n d i d n o t c o n t i n u e f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n , a n d
inferences can be drawn in relation to that from other
e vi d e n c e . S o w h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t t h a t a m b a s s a d o r ?
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

I

agree

fully

with

you

a d vo c a t e o n t h a t o n e .
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
Mr

Njenje

and

I a m n o t s a yi n g t h a t t h e e vi d e n ce o f

S h a i k,

s u b st a n t i a l l y, i s i n c o r r e ct .

which

now

d i ff e r s

f ro m

yo u r s

Th a t i s f o r t h e C h a i r t o m a k e u p

his mind.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, y o u . . . a r e t h e m a t t e r s t h a t b ro k e t h e

t ru st b e t w e e n y o u r se l ve s a n d t h e m i n i st e r, a re t h o s e m a t t e r s
Page 219 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
c o v e r e d i n yo u r l e t t e r t o t h e p r e si d e n t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: They are fully covered.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: They are.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t l o o k s l i ke M r P r e t o ri u s w a n t s t o s a y

something.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : H ’ m . [ l a u g h s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , n o t re a l l y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : N o , I t h i n k t o s a y a f t e r w a r d s.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a i r, I w a s j u st w o n d e ri n g a b o u t

t h e . . . o u r p l a n s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d . . .
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , i f . . . I c e rt a i n l y w o u l d l i k e t o f i n i s h

h i m . A r e t h e r e c h a l l e n g e s ? A n d y o u kn o w b e t t e r h o w f ar w e
are.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

N o , n o . A l l I a m sa yi n g C h a i r i s t h a t

i f i t w a s j u st a m a t t e r o f t h e st a t e m e n t , w e c o u l d f i n i s h a t a
20

re a s o n a b l e h o u r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t w h a t i s n e ce s s a r y a f t e r t h a t , i s t o
p u t t o t h e a m b a s s a d o r t h e va ri o u s a ff i d a vi t s t h a t h a v e b e e n
re c e i v e d

in

r e s p o n se

to

his

st a t e m e n t

p a rt i e s, p ri n ci p l e a n d o ff i ci a l s.
Page 220 of 294

from

implicated

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t o a l l o w h i m t o r e sp o n d t o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h a t w i l l t a k e s o m e t i m e a s w e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o i f w e w e re t o c o n t i n u e n o w, I

w o u l d sa y a t l e a st a n o t h e r t h r e e h o u r s.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Tw o t o t h r e e h o u r s.
10

A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : C h a i r, m a y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, I a m l i st e n i n g .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: Ask for your indulgence?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

I w a n t t o g o t o t h e g e n t s,

p l e a se .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

O k a y.

Shall we take that

adjournment and talk afterwards or do you... should we
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : N o , I a m h a p p y t o c o n t i n u e C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , l e t u s t a k e t h e a d j o u rn m e n t f o r a

couple of minutes and when we come back we can talk about
the way forward.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We a d j o u r n f o r t e n m i n u t e s. We a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S:
Page 221 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Pretorius, the Ambassador said he is

having no time constraints, we can move on he said earlier
on.

I certainly can continue as well. I think just before we

adjourned you were saying from your side you can continue
as well?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s , l e t u s c o n t i n u e a n d s e e h o w f a r w e

are at about eight.
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

And then take it from there.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Fine.

Good.

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

A m b a s s a d o r, c a n w e g o t o y o u r

statement at paragraph 70?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

Now that reads:

“I was not aware that the investigation into the
G u p t a s w a s p u r s u e d t h e r e a f t e r.
20

Notwithstanding

the clear indications that both the Minister and the
former President had given that they wished us not
to pursue our investigations, a final report was
ultimately prepared.”
Now there are number of issues that arise.

I think you

have given evidence or you have given evidence that as far
Page 222 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
as you were concerned the investigation did not continue.
Do I understand your evidence correctly?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV

PRETORIUS

SC:

Ye s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
Right.

I

may

be

that

the

consultations and drafting created the wrong impression
but as far as the investigators are concerned, we had no
evidence of any report into the Gupta’s relationship with
the

former

President

ever

finalised after this meeting.
10

having

been

prepared

or

Is that in accordance with

your evidence?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

In our consultation that is

what I think ultimately yesterday we agreed on.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

So insofar as this paragraph needs

to be recast, it is another correction that must be brought
to this affidavit, do I understand correctly?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t .

But it is clear that as far as you

are concerned, at least your evidence, is that you had no
knowledge of any report having been prepared or finalised
20

after the meeting with the former President.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

No, I do not.

And we have explored the other

statement that you make here that you concluded as far as
paragraph 70 is concerned that the former President gave
y o u t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t h e , t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e M i n i s t e r, d i d
Page 223 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
not wish you to pursue your investigation.
be qualified by your later evidence.

That must now

Do I understand

correctly?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

When you saw …[intervenes]

Before you leave that paragraph, Mr

Pretorius, because I think I see you are leaving it.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

I n t h a t p a r a g r a p h , A m b a s s a d o r, i t s e e m s

to me that one of the things you are saying is that the
President and the Minister had given indications that they
wished that you should not pursue the investigation.

N o w,

as far as the Minister is concerned, I am clear that that is
what you have said. I am not sure that in your response to
some of my questions that is what you said about the
President but I may have I misunderstood.

I just want to

m a k e s u r e I a m n o t c o n f u s e d a b o u t w h a t y o u s a y.
The paragraph, as I understand it, includes the
President in saying he had given clear indications that he
20

did not wish the investigation to be pursued.

Is that what

you are saying or you had an error with that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

T h a n k s , C h a i r.

I think it

w o u l d b e f a i r o f m e t o s a y, n o w t h a t y o u a r e p o s i n g t h i s
question, this line. in relation to the President, former
President,

might

not

apply

but

also

Page 224 of 294

the

word

“clear

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
i n d i c a t i o n ” e v e n o n t h e p a r t o f t h e M i n i s t e r, m i g h t b e
problematic.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y o u m i g h t w a n t t o s a y i n d i c a t i o n s

w i t h o u t s a y i n g c l e a r.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Ye s ,

you

can

say

“indications” but not “clear” because, as I was saying, I
still do not recall him saying stop this but there were
indications in our – in his interaction with us on that report
he wants us to stop.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I do not know whether I am

a n s w e r i n g y o u , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, you are.

So if that is the

position it might be necessary for a supplem entary affidavit
to …[intervenes]
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , y o u w o u l d a l s o h a v e t o c l a r i f y

your statement in paragraph 68 about the body language
and the demeanour of the former President.

But that is a

clarificatory affidavit that you can give som e thought to
20

because

you

did

say

that

the

former

President

was

deliberately silent as well in your evidence.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s I a g r e e a l s o o n t h a t

one, yes.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Alright.
O k a y,

I

just

Page 225 of 294

want

to

follow

that

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
paragraph 68.

Is your position that there was anything in

the body language and demeanour of the former President
in that meeting that suggested to you whether he did not
want you to continue with the investigation?

Wa s t h e r e

anything in his body language and demeanour that made
you or makes you think along those lines or not?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Except

to

say

that

his

muteness, his quiet, it is unlike him when you interact.

He

smiles, he laughs and he would joke but he was just stern
10

on

this.

I think this is what

I

wanted

to

convey by

demeanour and body language, it was unlike him.
Now as to whether it would be acceptable or correct
therefore to say it made it abundantly clear to us…
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

S o m a y b e t o p u t i t d i f f e r e n t l y.

Are

y o u a b l e t o s a y, a s y o u s i t t h e r e , t h a t h i s b o d y l a n g u a g e
and demeanour gave you an indication that he did not want
the investigation to be pursued?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Without

using

precise

words, that would be correct.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

But the impression when I

looked at his body language, you know?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

It was that of not a happy

person in relation to what we were discussing with him.
Page 226 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

H o w, I d o n o t k n o w, a d r a f t

does not show with the...
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, I understand.

Yo u s a y t h a t i s

the impression you got.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

It is the impression.

But you say you cannot put it higher

than that.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

No, I cannot.

Ye s b u t w i t h t h e M i n i s t e r i t i s a d i f f e r e n t

s t o r y.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

No,

we

know

with

the

Minister it is a different one.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . O k a y, a l r i g h t .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

What is clear from your evidence,

h o w e v e r, i s t h e s t a t e m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 6 6 t h a t t h e f o r m e r
President sought to explain his relationship with the Gupta
f a m i l y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

Did you conclude that he was

seeking to justify it?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u s e e , o n t h a t o n e , t h e

way he explained it, the time that he took in explaining
t h i s , i t w a s l i k e h e i s c o n d i t i o n i n g u s , y o u k n o w, h o w t h e y
helped his son, Duduzane who, although he had these
Page 227 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
skills, he could not be employed. And I think – not I think,
in the Commission, when he appeared, he raised this issue
of that …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, he did, ja.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

He did, quite in detail.

Ja.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

That is when he said I

decided that he should got to Ethekwini where he will get
employment, you know?
10

So but in relation to this one, he

w a s q u i t e d e t a i l e d o n t h a t o n e a n d r e a l l y, r e a l l y s e r i o u s
about it and – I do not know whether I have answered that.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Well, that at least is concrete

evidence that you have given as to what was actually said
at the meeting rather than inference from body language
and the like and inference from what was not said or what
d i d n o t h a p p e n t h e r e a f t e r.

So let us just go to that

evidence in relation to what the President said at the
meeting and then we will move on.
20

The statements made to you about his relationship
with the Gupta family – and I am trying to find a way of not
p u t t i n g w o r d s i n y o u r m o u t h , s o b e a r w i t h m e , A m b a s s a d o r.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Sure, sure, sure.

Did they seek to look at the

relationship objectively from an investigative point of view
Page 228 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
and ask questions about the relationship or were they
definitive

statements

about

the

fact

defensible and justifiable relationship?

that

this

was

a

Do you understand

what I am saying?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

That is the former President

now?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The former President, yes.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, no, he was very clear

and that there was nothing wrong with his relationship with
10

the people.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
paragraph 71.

Right.

Let us go on then to

We have dealt with the fact that as far as

you are concerned, no further action was taken, certainly
in the intelligence structures in relation to the relationship
between the former President and the Gupta family but you
do say in paragraph 71 that had proper action been taken
in

investigations

there

might

have

been

a

particular

outcome. Would you explain what you are saying please in
paragraph 71?
20

Because this is dealt with by Ms Duarte in

h e r s t a t e m e n t b u t w e w i l l c o m e t o t h a t l a t e r.
conclusion

in

paragraph

71.

Why

do

you

Yo u d r a w a
draw

that

conclusion?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

What I am saying is that had

that investigation or had the President have listened to
that investigation perhaps it would have helped him if he
Page 229 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
had stopped his relationship with the Guptas.

And I can

further go on to say when you look at it now in retrospect
a f t e r t h a t 2 0 11 r e p o r t , w o u l d h e h a v e b e e n i n t h e s i t u a t i o n
that he is in now?

Because he is dead into the mud

because of that relationship.

I think in essence that is

w h a t I a m s a y i n g i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . Yo u s e e , A m b a s s a d o r, t h a t m e e t i n g

with the President and that meeting with the Minister and,
of course, events that may have happened after these
10

meetings - and it may well be that there were events that
happened

before

these

meetings,

insofar

as

the

investigation is concerned, it may be quite important for
the point that you just articulated.
If

this

Commission

ultimately

–

if

it

were

to

ultimately find that to a certain extent the relationship that
the

former

President

had

with

the

Gupta

family

is

responsible for maybe some of the things that are alleged
t o h a v e h a p p e n e d i n t h e c o u n t r y, t h e q u e s t i o n o f w h e t h e r
people who tried to draw attention to him or other people
20

who might have had influence, like the NEC of the ruling
p a r t y, t o s a y s o m e t h i n g i s n o t r i g h t h e r e , t h e r e m u s t b e a n
intervention.

Or in the case of that investigation that Mr

Njenje,

Njenje’s

Mr

branch

was

conducing,

if

the

investigation had continued, it may – we do not know what
outcome it would have reached but assume that it may
Page 230 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
h a v e r e a c h e d t h e o u t c o m e t h a t s a i d t h i s i s d a n g e r, t h i s i s
going to cause problems.

It may be that if one looks at

that where one may say well, the President was

- should

have allowed the investigation to happen and so on, but he
is going to say to you – and this is what I want you to
address, what if he says to you but I never interfered with
your investigation, you yourself have said I did not say
stop the investigation, you were the DG, you were all
senior officials, you knew your obligations, you knew your
10

job, I did not say you must stop it. I did not say anything to
discourage you from proceeding, so how do you blame me
for

the

fact

that

you

did

not

continue

with

the

investigation? What do you say to that?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Good

question,

C h a i r.

Again, am going to answer that question honestly now that
you have posed that question to me.

I never thought of it

t h a t f a r, I a d m i t , A d v o c a t e , I n e v e r t h o u g h t o f i t t h a t f a r.
No, let me not cloud the question with other events, I think

20

it would be wrong.

Let me just respond to it in relation to

the investigation.

I would have no leg to stand if he

responds, if he asks that question.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

O k a y, a l r i g h t , t h a n k y o u . M r P r e t o r i u s ?

PRETORIUS

SC:

On

the

18

March

2016

a

memorandum was prepared and ultimately presented to the
representatives,

as

you

put

it,

of

Page 231 of 294

the

top

six.

Who

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
prepared the memorandum?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

The …[intervenes]

I a m s o r r y, M r P r e t o r i u s , i t l o o k s l i k e – i t

appears to me that that topic has been located wrongly
because that is a 2016 matter and yet later on, we must
talk about his resignation, which was in 2012.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Well, I do not think it is wrong, it is

j u s t n o t i n c h r o n o l o g i c a l o r d e r, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

No, no, I am saying it is located in a

wrong place because that happened in 2016.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But

we

must

still

hear

about

what

happened in 2012 when he left, is it not?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, that …[intervenes]

In terms of the affidavit.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

It says at page 23:

“My resignation

as the

head

of

the

Intelligence

Services.”
20

And this topic is at page 17.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

What he deals with now is a

number of particular incidents and then at the end of his
affidavit he deals with his resignation.
CHAIRPERSON:

I prefer that

to

…[intervenes]
Page 232 of 294

be –

let us finish

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

I f y o u p r e f e r t o c h a n g e t h e o r d e r, I

am happy that that be done.
CHAIRPERSON:

If it is fine with you.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o p r o b l e m , C h a i r.

I will prefer that we finish with what

happened in the years before.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , a l l I a m s a y i n g i n d e f e n c e o f

the drafter here is that there is a logic, perhaps not a time
sequence.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t l e t u s n o t a r g u e t h a t , C h a i r.

Ye s .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Go to paragraph 95, page 23.

this

statement

section

of

your

you

talk

about

In

your

resignation as the head of the Intelligence Services, is that
correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
document
20

authored

Ye s .

W h y – w e l l , s e c o n d l y, M M 2 A i s a

by

yourself

dated

November

2 0 11

addressed to the former President. Do you see that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
resignation,

it

was

Ye s .

That is not in its terms a letter of
merely

an

address

to

the

former

President setting out a number of issues that you required
or wanted to be addressed and you said at the end of that
Page 233 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
letter please address these within 14 days.

Do you recall

that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Come again, Advocate?

Alright.

G o t o p a g e 11 3 . 8 p l e a s e .

This is what you term a resignation letter but it is not
actually a letter announcing your resignation, it is a letter
addressed to the former President setting out a number of
concerns you have in relation to State Security and its
structures.
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

A r e y o u a t p a g e 11 3 ?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I a m t h e r e .

I f y o u g o t o p a g e 11 3 . 8 , t h e e n d o f

t h e l e t t e r, t h e r e i s y o u r s i g n a t u r e .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
a

statement

saying

Ye s .

The conclusion of this letter is not
you

are

going

to

resign,

it

is

a

statement which reads:
“Mr President, some of the issues raised herein
20

might not be new to you because I have raised them
w i t h y o u r p e r s o n a l l y.

I humbly request that within a

reasonable

14

time

of

days

of

receipt

of

this

document you respond on how you wish to address
them.”
Do you see that?
Page 234 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

S o t h i s l e t t e r, d i d i t p r e c e d e y o u r

resignation?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Ye s ,

it

preceded

my

resignation because m y resignation cam e into effect on the
28 January 2012.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

O k a y.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

When I turned 60.

O k a y, s o w a s i t t h e s e q u e n c e o f

events that you raised certain concerns with the former
President,

they

are

set

out

in

this

l e t t e r,

they

are

organisational concerns in the main in the manner in which
the Intelligence Service is organised and run.

I am not

sure that we need to go through them all, it is a matter of
record there.

But what gave rise to your resignation in

January 2012?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
found ourselves in.

It is a situation that we

As I explained before the short break,

a m o n g s t o t h e r t h i n g s N j e n j e , b y t h e t i m e I w r o t e t h i s l e t t e r,
20

Njenje had already left.

Right?

And there was this whole

flurry of reports which some of them one would not know
whether

was

this

information

deliberately

leaked

from

inside.
F o r e x a m p l e , I m a d e t h e e x a m p l e e a r l i e r, o n t h e
arrangement that we had with the Minister for me to take
Page 235 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
this

long

leave

in

December

during

holiday

which

we

a g r e e d o n . T h a t a p p e a r e d i n t h e C i t y P r e s s , y o u k n o w,
because

between

arrangement.
discussed

the

O k a y,

it

with

two
it

of

us,

we

might

be

that

somebody

else

knew

about

somebody

within

that
–

his

he

office,

somebody else leaked it, but it is not up to me to say that.
But the point is, when I read that City Press article – there
are others in this – in some of these paper clippings but at
that time it was already clear that as we – as I had
10

indicated

there,

Advocate,

that

the

relationships

were

broken.
ADV

PRETORIUS

SC:

Alright.

Would

you

go

to

paragraph 96 and there you set it out.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Paragraph?

R e a s o n a b l y c l e a r l y.

Yo u r e f e r t o

one particular incident that disturbed you.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Paragraph

96

of

my

statement?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

Ye s , p a g e 2 3 .

And you refer to a

general course of events that influenced your decision.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s . C a n I r e a d i t ?

Please do.

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“One

of

the

reasons

for

the

breakdown

in

our

relationship with Minister Cwele arose after I took
Page 236 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the Minister to task about is abuse of the resources
of the SSA to provide protection services for his
wife when attending court on charges that she had
been involved in drug smuggling.
Minister

Cwele

began

Soon after this

undermining

my

role

and

duties as head of the Intelligence Services.

He

gave direct instructions to members below me and
excluded me from properly performing my duties
under my performance agreement.
10

This is set out

fully in my letter of resignation but again we have
agreed

on

the

letter

addressed

to

the

former

President annexed hereto as MM2A.”
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Alright, now there are a number of

a n n e x u r e s t o t h a t l e t t e r.

Most of which are classified in

o n e f o r m o r a n o t h e r. S o m e o f t h e m h a v e b e e n d e c l a s s i f i e d
but they deal with performance agreements and the like
and unless you wish to refer to them, it is not necessary
from our point of view that you deal with them, they deal
with
20

performance

matters

and

the

point

about

your

evidence in relation to what concerns the legal team is that
there was a breakdown in the relationship.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

I agree with that.

Mr Pretorius, you will have to raise your

voice a bit, it was going down.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s , I a p o l o g i s e .
Page 237 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , j a . B u t l e t m e s a y t h i s . Yo u s e e , t h e

investigation that you conducted or that was conducted
under Mr Njenje, that we have talked about, and other
matters that you may be saying drove you to resign or
leave the Intelligence are quite important if the idea is to
say here was a very important investigation that we had
good grounds to pursue, we wanted to pursue and had we
been allowed to pursue, certain things might not have
happened.
10

So it becomes important to articulate quite

clearly what those things are.

Yo u r e m e m b e r e a r l i e r o n i n

your evidence you talked about constructive dismissal and
I gave an explanation on my own understanding of what
that is.
So if there is any way of saying is the minister ’s
conduct in this and that and that that brought about the
decision to stop the investigation or the decision to leave
the service or it is the P resident’s conduct in this and that
and that – all of that must be articulated quite clearly so
t h a t a l s o t h e b a s i s f o r s a y i n g s o c a n b e l o o k e d a t p r o p e r l y,
20

so I am just saying that although it that it is quite important
that it be articulate, these things be articulated properly if
that is the position.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Let’s put …[intervenes].

I f I m a y, w h a t i s t h e n e c e s s a r y

content of a relationship between a DG as you were and
Page 238 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the

M i n i s t e r,

is

it

necessary

for

that

to

be

a

good,

supportive relationship for it to work?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
absolutely important.

It’s absolutely crit ical and

If you read those Annexures and the

reasons why I put those performance agreements, those
p e r f o r m a n c e a g r e e m e n t s , b a s i c a l l y, i t ’ s a c o n t r a c t b e t w e e n
me and the Minister in relation to my performance, that’s
number one and when you read all of them, all of them,
they were signed by both of us, the Minister – for example
10

l e t m e g i v e t h e f i r s t o n e , o n e o f m y f i r s t K PA’s , K e y
Performance Area was to marshal the integration of these
two services, we agreed on that one.

N o w, t h e n y o u w o u l d

see that there are certain things that I needed to do and
there are certain things that the Minister needed to do.
One

of

them

is,

the

Minister

will

create

a

conducive

environment within the agency for me to fulfil my duties,
right.
of

me

Which is, if you look at – that was the significance
bringing

those

performance

agreements,

that’s

number one but now with the Performance Management
20

System, that we have, it’s right across Government, there
are annual performance evaluations, right, where now we
l o o k a t , h a v e I d o n e t h i s a n d t h i s a n d t h i s , t h i s K PA t h i s ,
t h i s a n d t h i s a n d I a m 1 0 0 % , c o m p l e t e l y, I c a n s t a n d o n t o p
o f t h e m o u n t a i n a n d s a y, I d i d w h a t I w a s a s k e d t o d o a n d
the evidence is in the performance agreements, because
Page 239 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
the Minister signed them off during times of evaluation, he
signed them off, all of them and I think these performance
agreements, they should be, what, three/four but I can
share

with

the

Commission,

I

can

share

with

–

the

b i t t e r n e s s t h a t I h a v e w i t h C w e l e i s t h a t u p t i l l t o d a y, m y
last performance evaluation, which I passed it is here, up
t o t o d a y, C h a i r, t h e S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y h a s n o t p a i d m e
for that up to today but…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u s a y t h e y h a v e n o t p a i d y o u ?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

They never paid me, I have

been discussing this thing, even with the present Minister
and first the former Inspector General, I think it must have
been around about 2015/2016 I lodged a complaint and she
investigated it and she came with the conclusion that the
A g e n c y m u s t p a y m e , i t h a s n ’ t h a p p e n e d , u p t i l l t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

How much are we talking about here, if

you are able to say?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Look I cannot quantify it

because they do the calculations.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Yo u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

But …[intervenes].

But whatever amount it is…[intervenes].

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Look between the two of us

Page 240 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
it won’t be less than R20 000.
CHAIRPERSON:

H m m , n o w, a m I r i g h t t o a s s u m e t h a t ,

that payment that you would have got or that you would be
entitled to, if your performance – if the assessment of your
performance indicated that you had performed very well, is
that correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u ’ r e c o r r e c t .

So, your last performance indicated that

you were doing well in your job?
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

A b s o l u t e l y.

And the previous ones, did they indicate

the same thing?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

All of them and all of the,

they were signed between the Minister and myself but what
I

was

trying

important

to

stress,

between

the

that
two

relationship

DG’s,

I

is

mean

v e r y,

between

very
the

Minister and – this one of the monies is just by way of
example which is one of the things that made this break in
relationship.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

So, are you saying to me that your

performance as DG was assessed and, on each occasion,
you were found to have performed very well?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

That’s

what

C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

That’s what you are saying?
Page 241 of 294

I’m

saying

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

And there’s evidence here,

i t ’ s n o t h e a r s a y, t h e r e ’ s e v i d e n c e h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , t h a n k y o u .

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Then the question arises as to why

the relationship between yourself and the Minister did not
meet the standards of trust and confidence that you said it
should meet, why did the relationship break down?

Yo u

deal with this in paragraph 96.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

reference

to

that

Ye s , I w a s w a i t i n g f o r t h e

paragraph,

to

explain.

One

of

problems amongst the multitude of other problems.

the
Yo u

w i l l r e c a l l , C h a i r, t h e c a s e o f t h e w i f e o f t h e M i n i s t e r,
f o r m e r M i n i s t e r, I t h i n k s h e ’ s s e r v i n g 1 5 y e a r s n o w, j a , i t ’ s
15 years for drug trafficking.

N o w, d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d o f

the trial what had happened, there was a payment – huge
payment, I don’t recall the amount that had to be signed by
Njenje because it was an expenditure that was done under
the Domestic Intelligence, basically what had happened,
members of the Intelligence Service using cars of the
20

service were transporting the Minister ’s wife from hom e to
the Court, right.

N o w, f o r a c c o u n t a b i l i t y, t h e u n i t t h a t w a s

responsible

for

that

needed

a

signature

for

their

expenditure.

N o w, a s t r i n g o f M a n a g e r s i n t h i s u n i t u p t o

Njenje, when those payments came from Njenje, Njenje
refused to sign them, he said, no, no, no this activities is
Page 242 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
n o t a n S S A a c t i v i t y, t h a t ’ s w h e n i t w a s b r o u g h t t o m y
attention by Njenje.

So, I asked Njenje, Njenje says, no

I’m not going to – it’s irregular I’m not going to sign it.
N o w,

the

Minister

got

to

know

about

that

right,

h o w,

because the service now for the transportation of the wife
had to be stopped because Njenje instructed the unit there
in KZN that it cut this thing, it’s irregular that’s when it was
brought to the attention of the Minister and we dealt with it
w i t h t h e M i n i s t e r a n d I s a i d t o t h e M i n i s t e r, l o o k , t h i s t h i n g
10

r e a l l y, t o b e h o n e s t , I m e a n i t ’ s n o t e v e n c o m e t o m e , b u t
now that Njenje has reported it to me, it’s under the
mandate, this expenditure in terms of authorisation falls
within the authorisation of Njenje it doesn’t need to come
to me but I am aware of it and I agree with Njenje, that it is
i r r e g u l a r, t h i s a c t i v i t y. Yo u k n o w, t h a t i s a n o t h e r r e a s o n f o r
this break of relationship under paragraph 96.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yo u g o o n t o s a y t h a t s o o n a f t e r

this, that is the incident…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Before – after when you raised this

issue with Minister Cwele, what was his reaction, did he
dispute your view that it was irregular expenditure, was
there a disagreement between the two of you on the issue
or did he concede that, yes it was, what happened I want
to hear about that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

L e t m e f i r s t s a y, M i n i s t e r

Page 243 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
Cwele is a very funny person.
CHAIRPERSON:

Just repeat that?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: He’s a very funny person and
some of us have categorised – characterised him as a
narcissist, he’s got narcissistic tendencies. One, he can be
dismissive, he can laugh for the most serious thing. For
example, on this one, he says no but DG this is nothing I
don’t understand what your problem is here, that was his
r e s p o n s e . N o w, o n m a n y o c c a s i o n s - I ’ m j u s t t r y i n g t o g i v e
10

y o u t h e c h a r a c t e r o f t h e p e r s o n n o t j u s t o n e a n d s e c o n d l y,
look, quite a number of Ministers are not aware of the
operational

matters

in

terms

of

expenditures

and

the

details and of course, it is understandable because it’s far
from them.

So, he might have thought that, but it’s up to

h i m t o s a y, h e m i g h t h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t , t h a t a c t i v i t y t h e r e
was nothing wrong with it.
said

to

him,

Minister

I

am

That was his response and I
out

of

this

thing

because

nonetheless I was just informing you so that you know I am
aware of this activity and Njenje is going to stop it.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

So, you say he might have thought there

was nothing wrong with it, in which case I take it he might
have thought that you people were wrong to stop it?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Of course, I agree with you

on that, he might it’s only him really who can explain
h i m s e l f C h a i r.
Page 244 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Are you saying that the Minister –

a Minister who uses State resources for private purposes,
might have thought it was legitimate, is that what you’re
saying?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV

PRETORIUS

SC:

Ye s , t h e r e ’ s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
It’s

very

generous,

I

must

say…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Well he might have thought so but are

you quite clear that he would have been wrong to think so
or…[intervenes].
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Not even wrong.

Ye s .

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Not even wrong it would

have been as it was, it was irregular and if he could have
been taken to Court by the Agency he would have, even to
h a v e b e e n f o u n d t o h a v e a g r e e d o n a n i l l e g a l a c t i v i t y,
that’s how serious – in terms of the PFMA.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Hmm, one would have thought that if the

DG came to the Minister – to a Minister and said, you know
that activity is actually going to land us in trouble it’s going
to

be

irregular

expenditure,

one

would

think

that

the

Minister would take that issue seriously and if he thought
the DG was wrong he would ask the question, why do you
s a y t h i s , s h o w m e w h e r e i t s a y s i t ’s n o t a l l o w e d , i s n ’ t i t ?
Page 245 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Absolutely you are right but

u n f o r t u n a t e l y, a g a i n , w e a r e n o t l i v i n g i n a v a c u u m w e a r e
not living in wonderland.

T h e r e a l i t y o f t h e m a t t e r, t h e s e

are some of the things that happen in Government.
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m going back to the issue of whether

he may have legitimately thought there was nothing wrong
with this because if the DG – one, the evidence makes it
clear that you told him that Mr Njenje had already refused
to sign.
10

That on its own should have told him Mr Njenje

used this matter in a serious light.

Yo u s a i d y o u a g r e e d

w i t h M r N j e n j e , y o u w e r e t h e D G o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t . N o w,
he ought to have thought – one would expect that he would
think, no this is serious if I have a different view let’s sit
down, let me see, let them show me why it’s wrong but if
he doesn’t do that but is dismissive would that be an
indication of som ebody who genuinely t hinks it’s right to do
this?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Maybe

it’s

an

understatement, I’m downplaying it to say that he might
20

h a v e t h o u g h t b e c a u s e r e a l l y, r e a l l y, I m e a n a r e a s o n a b l e
man would not have thought like that, not at all.

Let alone

a t t h e l e v e l o f t h e M i n i s t e r, w o u l d n ’ t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o y o u k n o w o f n o g r o u n d s o n

which he would have thought both you and Mr Njenje were
mistaken

about

thinking

this

Page 246 of 294

would

be

de-

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
regularised…[intervenes].
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

He would never have had a

leg to stand
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u m a d e i t c l e a r t o h i m t h a t i t

was irregular?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I – it’s irregular and I also

told him that it is going to be stopped or it has been
stopped and Njenje has told me that he is going to stop it
and I agree with him.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Yo u g o o n i n p a r a g r a p h 9 6 t o s a y

what happened after this incident.

Yo u ’ v e a l r e a d y t o l d t h e

Chair that, in relation to the Gupta investigation in all
probability

he’d

received

information

from

one

of

your

subordinates and that, that was not in accordance with the
protocol of reporting lines, do you recall that evidence?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

Yo u s a y t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 9 6 , s o o n

after this, and would you carry on from there please.
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: “Soon after this, Minister
Cwele began undermining my role and duties as
head of the Intelligence Service.

He gave direct

instructions to members below me and excluded,
not

precluded,

performing

my

excluded
duties

me

under

Page 247 of 294

from
my

properly

performance

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
agreement.

This is set out fully in my letter of

resignation addressed to the former President”,
that is Annexure MM2A, this is the Annexure that
contains the performance agreements.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Well for

what it’s worth Am bassador it

appears to me that your choice of precluded may have
been the more accurate one as opposed to excluded it
sounds
10

quite

appropriate

to

me

because

it

means

prevented you from properly performing your duties, that’s
what that sentence means.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Okay Chair I’m not going to
a r g u e w i t h y o u o n t h a t , I w a s s t i l l s h a r p i n 2 0 11 , n i n e y e a r s
down the line.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ambassador apart from examples

that you might give of him liaising with your subordinates
and undermining your rule as head and duties as head of
Intelligence Service are there any other reasons for the
breakdown in the relationship?
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

If we can continue – I think I

continue with this in paragraph 97.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

97 deals with declassification and

the like, I don’t think we need go there, go to 98.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

declassification?
Page 248 of 294

It

deals

with

the

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Well if you want to deal with it you

c a n b u t t h i s d e a l s w i t h m a t t e r s t h a t o c c u r r e d r e c e n t l y, l a s t
y e a r,

in

relation

documents

and

to
it

classification
can’t

have

or declassification

been

relevant

to

of

your

resignation at the time.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV

PRETORIUS

explanation

of

SC:

why

O h o k a y.
In

the

other

words,

attachments

to

97

the

is

an

letter

of

resignation are not attached, and I don’t think it’s relevant
10

to go to that.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV

PRETORIUS

SC:

No, it’s not.
The

documents

have

been

d e c l a s s i f i e d b u t n o t a l l o f t h e m b u t o n l y r e c e n t l y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

Let’s go to paragraph 98 if we

could.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: “Ambassador Shaik felt very
strongly that we should fight to the end against
what he perceived as our constructive dismissal by
20

t h e M i n i s t e r. I f e l t t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r h a d t h e b a c k i n g
of the former President and told Ambassador Shaik
that

we

could

not

win

the

war

as

the

former

President would ultimately get rid of us”.
N o w, p a r t l y w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s
about

the

former

President

but

Page 249 of 294

this

paragraph

also

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
highlights that we continued discussing our situation and
A m b a s s a d o r S h a i k w a s t h e o n e w h o w a s v e r y, v e r y s t r o n g
t o s a y, l e t u s c o n t i n u e f i g h t i n g t h i s t h i n g , l e t u s n o t c a v e i n
because it’s intentional this thing, it’s going to lead to a
constructive dismissal but as I said

e a r l i e r, C h a i r, w e

concluded that – I’d said to them that, look you’re not
going to win this fight, tell me of a DG, tell me of a
Minister who has been reprimanded since 1994 and a DG is
said to have been in the right, that’s not happening in this
10

post 1994 I would still want to know of a case where a
P r e s i d e n t r e p r i m a n d s a M i n i s t e r o r s a c r i f i c e s a M i n i s t e r.
No, at the end
officials,

either

of the day the
a

DG

or

what,

scapegoat will
that’s

why

I

be the

felt

that,

continuing with what more was saying we should do was
u n s u s t a i n a b l e , h e a c t u a l l y p r o v e d i t w h e n h e , u l t i m a t e l y,
resigned.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

When who asked you to resign?

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, I was not asked to

resign.
20

ADV PRETORIUS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry then I misheard you.

I think you might have to repeat what the

last statement you said about, it was proved when what –
y o u w e r e f o l l o w i n g u p o n t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u s a y, o n t h e
position that you say you conveyed to…[intervenes].
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

To M o a n d N j e n j e .

Page 250 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a t y o u – t h e t h r e e o f y o u w o u l d

n o t w i n t h e w a r, t h i s w a r i f y o u c o n t i n u e d t o f i g h t a n d y o u
said to them, show me a DG who has won against a
M i n i s t e r.

Show me a Minister who has been sacrificed by

the President when there’s an issue with the DG. Then you
made a statem ent about resigning, I thought that’s what I
heard as well, you said this was proved when?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I was saying, I agree, I

resigned but I was not told to resign.
10

I resigned because I

couldn’t stand – it was strenuous, it was strenuous to say
the least and everybody in that farm was aggrieved by what
was happening, you see and the situation was not being
resolved, you see.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
you

receive

the

I n s u m m a r y t h e n , i n y o u r v i e w, d i d

support

from

the

Minister

that

you

expected as DG?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

No, I didn’t.

Right, and was there any act on

behalf of the Minister that served, in your view at least, to
20

undermine

the

relationship

between

yourself

and

the

Minister?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

One, the direct instructions

into the Department by passing me, is one clear example. I
Page 251 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
think somewhere in my report…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

When you say report, you mean your

statem ent, your affidavit?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I was just trying to be

careful as to look at whether I deal with it. There is a point
in time when people were reshuffled out of the Department
i n t o t h e M i n i s t e r, N k o s i i s o n e e x a m p l e .

When he came

back from Ethiopia, he was working under Ambassador
Shaik, right.
10

N o w, p r o t o c o l r e g u l a t i o n s s t a t e s v e r y c l e a r i f

Njenje wants somebody from the Secret Service it has to
be mutually agreed and it has to be authorised by the DG
and

of

course

the

Minister

will

be

notified

about

the

c h a n g e s . N o w, i n t h e c a s e o f D l o m o , t h a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d .
I heard on the grapevine, no I happened to have gone to
the Minister and Dlomo was in the Ministry and then I
remember asking him, what is it, he says, no DG I’ve been
transferred that was all. I think Kaho Mbunga, Dr Kaho that
I mentioned earlier on, he was also from the foreign branch
and he was taken out of the foreign branch without any
20

consultations.

One, with Mo Shaik as the head of the

branch, two, with the DG. So that is another clear example
Advocate.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
you

decided

then

to

A l r i g h t , l e t ’ s m o v e o n i f w e m a y,
terminate

the

correct?
Page 252 of 294

relationship

is that

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
relationships

with

him,

I was not terminating the

I

was

resigning

from

the

about

the

organisation…[intervenes].
ADV

PRETORIUS

SC:

Right

I’m

talking

employment relationship, you decided to resign.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u s e e t h e r e i s a n o t h e r

dichotomy within the structure that might, perhaps be also
relevant

to

the

Commission.

Who

appoints

DG’s,

the

President, who dismisses, who terminates a contract of the
10

DG, many cases, many cases you will not see the signature
o f t h e P r e s i d e n t ? Yo u w i l l a l e t t e r s i g n e d b y a M i n i s t e r, i t ’ s
not only in the intelligence, also in the other structures and
it’s not only under former President Zuma, that has been
the

trend

protocol.

in

the

end,

you

never

k n o w,

actually

what

And I know even up until today that thing is still

an issue amongst former DG’s.

It is still an issue because

it has never been resolved.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

We l l I a m n o t s u r e t h a t t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r t o p i c s h o u l d t a k e u s m u c h l o n g e r. T h e f a c t i s t h a t
20

the relationship broke down.

Yo u h a v e g i v e n s o m e o f t h e

reasons for the relationship breaking down including the
undermining of your position.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : B y t h e M i n i s t e r.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : T h e M i n i s t e r.
Page 253 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
resign

which

dismissal.

you
Yo u

And ultimately your decision to

have
said

described
your

as

employment

a

constructive
had

become

intolerable.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Hm.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . W i t h t h a t D C – t h e C h a i r c a n
we go to paragraph 74?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Paragraph?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : 7 4 o n p a g e 1 7 .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e c a n b u t b e f o r e w e d o s o l e t m e

ask this question and I think we may have touched on
[indistinct 00:01:12].

I want to be quite clear what your

evidence is about it.

Yo u s a i d t h a t a f t e r t h e t w o m e e t i n g s

one with the Minister the other with the President the
i n v e s t i g a t i o n w a s n o t p u r s u e d f u r t h e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Who made the decision that it should not

be pursued further?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

Yo u t o b e h o n e s t l y a n s w e r i n g

that question Chair it never came from me.
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I am not even sure if – I do

not know if Njenje knows.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l – w e l l y o u w e r e t h e D G y o u s h o u l d

k n o w. N j e n j e w a s t h e H e a d o f t h e B r a n c h t h a t w a s …
Page 254 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Of the Branch.
CHAIRPERSON: That was that was at that stage.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
you

should

know

And he should know but the reason why
is

I

think

it

was

such

an

important

investigation you would have wanted to know where is the
outcome or anything like that?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I can unequivocally say I

never gave the instruction for that investigation to stop.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : I n e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e v e r.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No.
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you – do you know whether anybody

took the decision to stop it or whether it just fizzled out –
fizzled out?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : I r e a l l y d o n o t k n o w C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : I r e a l l y d o n o t k n o w.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I cannot even say it fizzled

out.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : I d o n o t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But after the two meetings did the
Page 255 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
three of you talk about whether the investigation would be
pursued or not? Because the Minister you did say made it –
it

was

clear

that

the

Minister

investigation being pursued.

was

opposed

to

the

The President did not say

anything according to you to indicate that he did not want
the investigation to be pursued.

After the meeting or at

some stage after those events did the three of you have a
d i s c u s s i o n t o s a y, d o w e p u r s u e t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r d o w e
not pursue it?
10

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No there has been – there

w a s n o d i s c u s s i o n a r o u n d t h a t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay alright.

Now Mr Pretorius I do not

know whether you have had – you have refreshed your
memory of

Mr Shaik’s statement and evidence

Njenje’s one.
both

of

them

and

Mr

I seem to have the impression that one or
that

what

they

said

in

terms

of

their

understanding of where the President stood on whether the
20

investigation should have – not continue.

I seem to have

the impression that they are – their evidence either was that
the impression was that the President did not want the
investigation to be pursued or that he did not want it to be
pursued but I seem to think that at least one of them said
he did not say it must be stopped or both might have said
Page 256 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
yes he did not say it must be stopped but – what is your
recollection?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

T h e e v i d e n c e w a s t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t

and it was consistent that no direct instruction to stop the
investigation was given but they were left under the clear
impression that the former President did not favour the
investigation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PRETORIUS SC: I would like to qualify an answer that
10

t h e w i t n e s s g a v e C h a i r.

Yo u s a i d t h a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t

said nothing in the meeting with you in relation to the Gupta
investigation

to

indicate

that

he

did

not

want

the

investigation to continue. Do you recall that?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

He did however on your evidence

expressly defend his relationship with the Gupta’s, is that
correct?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
20

I think we have dealt with that.

So

subject to that nothing else was said.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Secondly the timeline might be

significant in assessing what happened here or what did not
happen.

The meetings with the Minister and the former
Page 257 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
President when did they take place? Can you recall?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Ja.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : 2 0 11 t h a t b e i n g s a i d .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : T h e y e a r 2 0 11 n o d o u b t a b o u t
it.

W h a t w o u l d b e e x t r e m e l y d i ff i c u l t f o r m e i s t o p i n d o w n

the actual month and date.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I can – I seem to think it

w o u l d h a v e b e e n J u n e / J u l y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere mid-year?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Sorry?
CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere mid-year?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s s o m e w h e r e m i d - y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Because number 1 it was not

a h o t d a y. I t w a s n o t a w a r m d a y i n C a p e To w n i t w a s c o l d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

A l r i g h t s o i f i t w a s a r o u n d m i d - 2 0 11

there was a lapse of six or so months [indistinct 00:07:17]
20

yes.

Mr Shaik – Mr Shaik’s evidence was in the later

m o n t h s o f 2 0 11 .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Later months.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : D o e s t h a t h e l p y o u a t a l l ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: It could not have been. Okay
d e p e n d i n g a g a i n l a t t e r m o n t h o f 2 0 11 w h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ?
Page 258 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
ADV PRETORIUS SC: In any event I do not want to quibble
with you.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, no I am saying because

a d v o c a t e N j e n j e l e f t i n O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

Njenje

was

part

of

that

meeting.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

So I will argue that it was

b e f o r e O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

But I think the point here is that the

time lapse between those meetings and the departure of the
first and later the other of the top 3 yourself, Njenje and
Shaik was a matter of months.

In other words in assessing

the continuation of the investigation all I want to establish
is that the time lapse and we can discuss this later but the
time lapse between the meetings with the former – with the
Minister and the former President and the departure from
the organisation – State Security Organisation was a matter
20

of months.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s . Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Thank you.

Alright.

In your hands

Chair but barring any other questions.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, no I do not have other

questions but I do know that you do have that topic of
Page 259 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
p o l i t i c i s a t i o n o f s t a t e s e c u r i t y.

It may or may not be that it

can come after the one on page 17. I leave that to you.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Well no, no the – the Chair the

m e m o r a n d u m a d d r e s s e d t o t h e To p 6 i s t h e n e x t .
CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

In the sequence of events.

That

must be dealt with.
CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a f t e r t h e s t a t e m e n t i s c o n c l u d e d
10

w e c a n t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e r e s p o n s e s o f t h e To p 6 b u t t h e r e
is also the heading – the matter involving General Mdluli
and then there is also the Pan 1 investigation to be dealt
with.

So those three issues need to be dealt with before

dealing with the responses.
CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

O k a y.

And we can deal with it

briefly because we will deal with it in more detail when we
deal with the statement of Duarte – Ms Duarte.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

But – and there has been evidence

quite a detailed nature in this regard but in summary on the
18 March 2016 the – certainly that is the date of the
m e m o r a n d u m a d d r e s s e d t o t h e To p 6 o f t h e A f r i c a n N a t i o n a l
Congress, is that correct?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: That is correct.
Page 260 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

That memorandum is attached and

the purpose of that memorandum and the approach to the
To p 6 w a s w h a t i n y o u r v i e w a n d s u m m a r y ?
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

The

purpose

of

that

memorandum was to bring to the attention of the ANC as an
organisation by former members of Mkhonto we Sizwe.

We

were concerned about developments one in the country but
also, we were concerned about developments within the
p a r t y.
10

Remember now this is 2016 we are no more civil

s e r v a n t s . W e t h e n f e l t t h a t i t – o k a y.
1. A memorandum was drafted and by 101 members of
the structure.
Okay not that I will come to who drafted it.
behalf

of

the

101

members

Right.

generated

Now on

was

this

memorandum. That is a task as MM what?
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
extracts

in

paragraph

M M 3 o n p a g e 11 5 b u t t h e r e a r e
77

so

we

need

not

go

to

the

memorandum.
AMBASSADOR
20

MAQETUKA:

O k a y.

The

memorandum

states or you say I might jump to 77.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s t h e m e m o r a n d u m s t a t e s

amongst other things:
“ T h a t i n l i g h t o f t h e s e r e v e l a t i o n s t h a t i s a r o u n d t h e G u p t a ’s
now – that is paragraph 8 of that memorandum.
Page 261 of 294

In light of

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
these revelations we demand to know what role if any the
Gupta

family

play

in

influencing

Ministers and to what end?

the

appointment

of

Which other Ministers have

been approached by them in this manner? What private
arrangements if any have been made with the Gupta family?
What is their role in the appointment of board members of
state owned enterprises?

Is the leadership of the ANC

aware of these arrangements?

And on whose authority

does the Gupta family act?”
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

The further questions raised in

paragraph 9 and 10.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“In the absence of any coherent explanation of all of the
above we are forced to speculate that important decisions
of state are subject to outside influence and unilateralism
without any regard to the wellbeing of the country or our
people.”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 1 3 .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Paragraphs 13 reads:
20

“Whilst the challenges that face the ANC are many and
complex,

we

are

most

concerned

tendency of state capture.
in

the

face

of

this

most

about

the

increasing

We can no longer remain silent
undemocratic

development.”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d p a r a g r a p h 1 4 .
Page 262 of 294

and

dangerous

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“ T h e r e a r e m a n y, m a n y a c c o u n t s o f u n d u e i n f l u e n c e o n t h e
decisions of the state.

We need to establish the veracity

and the validity of all these claims.”
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Now at this stage the evidence in

the public domain particularly in the media around these
issues what was the position?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Well the media had a field

around this business there is no doubt about it.
10

not any secret information that we got.

This was

We did not have

any access to secret information of state.

It was in the

public domain.
ADV PRETORIUS SC: Right. And paragraph 16 is a call on
the

leadership

of

the

ANC

to

establish

independent

c o m m i s s i o n o f i n q u i r y. N o w t h i s c a l l i s m a d e i n M a r c h 2 0 1 6
and we will come to the timeline when we deal with the
a ff i d a v i t o f M s D u a r t e i n d u e c o u r s e a s t o w h e t h e r t h i s w a s
acted upon and let me not pass any judgment at this stage
but to ask you whether in your view this approach to the
20

l e a d e r s h i p w a s a c t e d o n s u ff i c i e n t l y o r p r o m p t l y e n o u g h ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: I can safely say no.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h y d o y o u s a y t h a t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
this.

It was not.

Why I am saying

First let me also indicate that in that meeting what is

not captured here.

In that meeting I must say it was a very
Page 263 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
f r i e n d l y m e e t i n g f r o m a n u m b e r o f t h e To p 6 m e m b e r s b u t
one.

It is the then Secretary General of the ANC Qwede

Mantashe.

He was arrogant.

Remember there was an

alteration in that meeting between him and Jabu Molukete.
And this alteration comes about he tried to politicise us and
Jabu

was

–

Jabu

said

Catholicism to the Pope.

to

him

please

do

Te m p e r a t u r e s r o s e .

not

preach

The person

who saved that day was Jessie Duarte who called calm and
s a i d C o m r a d e t h i s i s n o t w h a t w e c a m e h e r e f o r. T h e r e i s a
10

memorandum that should be discussed and these Comrades
are expected responses from us.
then there was calm.

And I must say after that

That is when I think it is important

because we will come to that.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : L a t e r.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Ye s .

And we will come to the

sequence of events between March and the end of 2016 and
in 2017. But let us not forestall that at the moment.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : O k a y.
20

ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Let

us

deal

with

the

issue

p a r a g r a p h 7 9 a n d f o l l o w i n g i f w e m a y A m b a s s a d o r.

in

Again,

apologies Chair we are going out of time sequence but
during your stint with the Crime Intelligence – with – not
Crime Intelligence with the Intelligence structures SSA did
you have occasion to deal with a report commissioned by
Page 264 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
General Mdluli?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Te l l t h e C h a i r w h a t h a p p e n e d .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
say

that

m e m o r y.

again

thanks

Ye s .

I had.

to Ambassador

And also let me
Shaik

–

Shaik’s

By the way he is youngest within the three of us

s o h i s m e m o r y i s s t i l l s h a r p . Ye s I i n t e r a c t e d w i t h t h i s a n d I
recalled and he did not actually give that background that
this report from Crime Intelligence that is called the Mdluli
10

Report was given to me by Minister Cwele.
a report here that is very worrisome.

He say there is

And I want you guys

to look at this report.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
say?

Yo u

say

it

Just very briefly what did the report
was

a

report

prepared

by

Crime

Intelligence.
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

To

be

exact

now

do

I

determine refer me to the…
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 7 9 .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

Paragraph 79.

Okay let me

read it. Let me read it.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : P l e a s e d o .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“Minister Cwele provided me with a report commissioned by
General

Mdluli

and

Av e r r i n g t h a t t h e r e

prepared
was a

by

Crime

Intelligence.

conspiracy waged

Page 265 of 294

by senior

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
generals

in

SAPS

to

secure

the

removal

from

Crime

General

Mdluli

Intelligence.”
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

The removal of

surely?
CHAIRPERSON: Or his removal.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

His removal – his removal –

s o r r y C h a i r.
“His removal from Crime Intelligence which he indicated the
former President wished the SSA to analyse and report on.”
10

ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Now we discussed in consultation

more or less when this occurred. Do you recall?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

I really do not recall.

As I

said in my introduction I have completely forgotten about
this report.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I t w a s w h i l s t y o u w e r e s t i l l D G .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No, no it was welcoming.

The SSA.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
20

And as I said most of these

t h i n g s h a p p e n e d d u r i n g 2 0 11 , e a r l y 2 0 11 .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right.

Now should a Crime Report

of this nature have been given to you directly?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Now again in the spirit of that
coordination here is Crime Intelligence having a report. Let
alone the report another thing which I have not – we have
Page 266 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
not – I never discussed with you.

This report alleges that

there were general who wanted to remove me as Mdluli.
That was one of the things that we said no, no there is
something wrong with this report.
SSA

would

have

been

the

But as to whether the

correct

structure

it

is

questionable for me.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A l r i g h t .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Because…
ADV PRETORIUS SC:
10

Let us leave that protocol aside if

w e m a y. Yo u d o s t a t e i t i n p a r a g r a p h 8 0 .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : O k a y.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

As a result of that intervention did

you investigate?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s w e a n a l y s e d t h e r e p o r t .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r f i n d i n g ?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
no

substance

in

these

Our finding was that there is

allegations.

There

is

just

no

substance.
1. I remember we raised the issue of the process that
20

this report should be taken by the very person who is
being accused.
At least he should have had the wisdom to have left that
report to be done by one his deputies because he is
implicated.

Now how could we believe that the truthfulness

of his report?

That was amongst the – but our conclusion
Page 267 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
and again let me state it was done predominantly by the –
by the Domestic Branch because it is a domestic issue.
falls within.

Yo u s e e .

It

And then they advised me then – by

me I mean the three of us on this report. And we dismissed
the report as having no basis.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

So just to summarise.

General

Mdluli to your knowledge commissioned a report to be
produced by Crime Intelligence.

The substance of that

report was that he General Mdluli was the victim of a
10

conspiracy waged by senior generals in the South African
Police

Service

to

secure

his

removal

from

Crime

Intelligence.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

That report was then given to you

for investigation.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : O r t o t h e S S A f o r i n v e s t i g a t i o n .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I t w a s i n v e s t i g a t e d b y M r N j e n j e .
20

A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

substance

to

the

SC:

And

allegations.

found
Do

that
I

there

understand

correctly?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: Correct Advocate.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n ?
Page 268 of 294

was

no
you

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Would there have been a

document reflecting your analysis of the reports?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And your conclusions and reasons?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

No that one would have been

a formal document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

That was responding to a

formal document.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
AMBASSADOR

MAQETUKA:

That

came

through

the

M i n i s t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay and that should exist somewhere?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: No it should have…
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I h a v e a n o t e C h a i r t o t r y a n d o b t a i n
it.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y.

But if you are able to I

would like you to just highlight two or three things on the
basis of which it was said this report had no merit.
20

If you

a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r. B u t i f y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o r e m e m b e r.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Yo u w i l l p a r d o n m e a g a i n

t h e r e . L a p s e o f m e m o r y.
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

And also, it looks like a

person who still remembers these details of that report.
Page 269 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON: No, no that is alright.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

Ye s .

But no, I am sorry

C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
may proceed.

Hopefully we get the report.

Okay you

I think Mr Pretorius the question was, what

happened after you had concluded that there was no merit
in the Mdluli Report?

He was expecting you to answer that

question. What happened after you had concluded yes?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
10

Oh, when we finished – when

I received the report from Domestic, we discussed it as the
To p 3 a n d i t w a s c l e a r e d a n d i t w a s g i v e n b a c k t o t h e
Minister as our response.
ADV PRETORIUS SC: Do you know whether it was given to
the former President?
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: I do not know that would have
b e e n t h e M i n i s t e r w h o w o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t n o r m a l l y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Just have a look at your own

statement in paragraph 81 please.

Again, if you disagree

w i t h w h a t i s s a i d h e r e p l e a s e s a y – s a y t h a t t o t h e C h a i r.
20

AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:

This would – this would have

been twofold.
1. It is possible that I would have been briefed by the –
by the Minister on this response because personally I
do not remember detailing with the President.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
Page 270 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: On this.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

No you do not say that here.

What

you do say is that your report was not accepted by the
former President.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA: I can – I can really…
ADV PRETORIUS SC: Please look at paragraph 81 and just
tell me – oh sorry do not tell me tell the Chair whether what
you say there is accurate or not?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q E T U K A : O k a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Well you may read it aloud for us and then
comment on it.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
“But be it as it may I nevertheless referred the report to Mr
Njenje to the Domestic Branch to investigate.

This was

done and when completed the Domestic Branch found that
the report had no substance and was full of unverified
information.

H o w e v e r, o u r S S A r e p o r t t h a t i s t h e r e s p o n s e

despite careful analysis was not accepted by the former
President who chose rather to believe the commissioned
20

report by Richard Mdluli.

T h i s h a d t h e e ff e c t o f s t i f l i n g t h e

murder/rape and kidnapping investigations against Mdluli as
well as the investigation into his involvement in the irregular
appointment

of

members

to

Crime

Intelligence

and

his

abuse of Secret Service accounts, vehicles and safe houses
for his own purposes.”
Page 271 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
Now that latter part I suspect must have been the content of
that report that they were analysing. But going back to your
question about not accepted by the former President I
cannot really say with absolute surety that it is a correct
reflection.

I cannot.

Because I never communicated with

the President on that.

I do not know if he communicated

with Njenje. It is also possible.
ADV PRETORIUS SC:

Right well it may not necessarily

flow from your evidence but the fate of the charges or
10

investigation into General Mdluli and its partial finalisation
more recently approximately ten years later is a matter of
other evidence and we need not deal with it here.

But it

does not seem to me you have personal knowledge of this.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: No. No, advocate.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , i f t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a n e r ro r i n

si g n i n g t h e a ff i d a vi t , w h i c h sa y s t h i s, w h e n a ct u a l l y t h a t i s
not

your

r e c o l l e ct i o n ,

it

may

be

necessary

to

do

a

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t , e x p l a i n i n g t h a t i t i s n o t l i k e t h i s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : T h a t i s c o r r e ct .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e r e a r e a f e w c o rr e ct i o n s t h a t m u st
be made.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

I n v e st i g a t i o n .

SC:

Let

us

deal

with

the

PA N

1

Ye s, y o u d o h a v e p e r so n a l k n o w l e d g e o f t h i s.
Page 272 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
I s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s , C h a i r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o r ry, I j u st n e e d t o p u t so m e t h i n g

to...
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

D o y o u re c a l l . . . I m u st p u t t o y o u f o r

y o u r o w n e vi d e n c e , a m b a s s a d o r. M r S h a i k g a v e e vi d e n c e a s
t o t h e m e e t i n g w i t h t h e p re s i d e n t , ri g h t ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : H e s a i d :
“ T h e p r e si d e n t w e l c o m e d u s.

We w e r e a l l se a t e d .

I

d i d g e t a s e n s e t h a t h e w a s b ri e f e d a b o u t w h y w e
w e re h e re . . . ”
Yo u c o n f i r m t h a t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
“A n d o b vi o u sl y h e k n e w t h a t i t w a s a b o u t t h e m a t t e r
o f t h e G u p t a I n v e st i g a t i o n . . . ”
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: H’m?
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t c o i n ci d e s w i t h yo u r e vi d e n c e ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : H e t h e n g o e s o n t o s a y:
“B u t t h e p r e si d e n t st a rt e d o ff w i t h a d i s c u s si o n o n
essentially what is called the...”
I h a ve g o t t o g e t t h i s p r o n u n ci a t i o n ri g h t .
Page 273 of 294

“The Richard

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
M d l u l i r e p o rt ”.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u r e ca l l t h a t b e i n g d i s c u s s e d i n
t h e m e e t i n g w i t h t h e p r e si d e n t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

T h a t st a t e m e n t i s c o r r e ct

b e ca u s e t h a t i s w h a t S h a i k r e p o r t s. . . I m e a n , s a i d i n h i s
e vi d e n c e .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : N o , t h e q u e s t i o n i s, d o y o u r e c a l l i t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: I do not recall that.
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : O h .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : To b e h o n e st . I d o n o t r e c a l l
t h a t h a vi n g b e e n ra i se d i n t h a t m e e t i n g b u t I re c a l l h o w t h a t
re p o rt w a s b r o u g h t t o o u r a t t e n t i o n . I d o n o t r e c a l l i t e a rl i e r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

No, it is only fair that we speak to

y o u o n ce m o r e a n d g e t a n a c c u r a t e v e r si o n o f y o u r e vi d e n ce
i n t h i s re g a r d b e c a u se I u n d e r st a n d t h a t y o u d o n o t r e c a l l
t h i s a n d yo u h a v e n o p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t i s st a t e d
h e r e . I s t h a t c o r r e ct ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : N o , n o . W h a t I a m s a yi n g . I
20

d o n o t h a v e . . . t h e p l a c e w h e r e i t w a s ra i s e d , I d o n o t re c a l l i t
b e i n g r a i s e d i n t h a t m e e t i n g w i t h t h e p r e si d e n t .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : O h , n o . L e a v e i t a si d e o r. . . y o u h a v e
said it that you do not recall it being said in that meeting.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : We h a ve e st a b l i s h e d t h a t .
Page 274 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

But what you say here is that the

re p o rt t h a t t h e S S A p r e p a r e d u n d e r t h e h a n d s o f M r N j e n j e
w a s n o t a c c e p t e d b y t h e f o rm e r p r e si d e n t , ri g h t ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Who choice rather to believe that

re p o rt co m m i s si o n e d b y R i c h a r d M d l u l i . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: Mdluli.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

N o w a s I u n d e r st a n d w h a t y o u a r e

s a yi n g n o w, yo u h a v e n o d i re ct k n o w l e d g e o f t h a t .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : N o , t h a t i s c o rr e ct .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
then.

We l l , w e m u st r e ct i f y y o u r st a t e m e n t

I f w e ca n g o o n t o t h e PA N 1 I n v e st i g a t i o n .

We... the

t i m e t h a t y o u s p e n t a t S S A a n d yo u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a i r t h i s,
p r i o r t o yo u r a r ri v a l , t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i n t o PA N 1 , t h e PA N 1
P r o j e ct , w a s o n g o i n g . I s t h a t co r r e ct ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : T h a t i s c o r r e ct .
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t t h e i n ci d e n t s t h a t g a ve ri s e t o t h e
re p o rt h a d a l r e a d y o c c u r r e d b e f o r e y o u a r ri v e d .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : T h a t i s c o r r e ct .
ADV

P R E TO R I U S S C :

D o I u n d e r st a n d

c o r r e ct l y ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
Page 275 of 294

yo u r e vi d e n c e

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

W h a t w a s t h e p o si t i o n w h e n

y o u a r ri v e d t h e n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e e x p e n d i t u re , t h e re p o rt
a n d r e l a t e d m a t t e r s?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : T h e p o si t i o n o f t h e re ci p i e n t s
o f t h e r e p o rt w h o w a s t h e m i n i st e r, b e ca u s e t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n
t e a m w a s r e p o rt i n g i n m e e t i n g s t h a t w e r e ch a i r e d b y t h e
m i n i st e r.
And

I

have

again

to

st a t e

here

that

with

all

the

d i ff e r e n c e s t h a t I h a d w i t h h i m , w h e n i t c a m e t o t h i s PA N 1
10

R e p o rt ,

there

were

no

c o n t r a d i ct i o n s,

there

were

no

p r o b l e m s, t h e re w e r e n o c h a l l e n g e s a m o n g st u s.
We w e re l i st e n i n g t o t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s.

We l l , I h a d t h e

p r i vi l e g e o f b e i n g s e n si t i s e d a n d b ri e f e d b y N j e n j e w h e n e v e r
t h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e a m e e t i n g w i t h t h e m i n i st e r, w i t h t h e
i n v e st i g a t i o n t e a m b u t t h e r e w e r e n o d i ff e r e n c e s, t h e r e w e re
n o co n t r a d i ct i o n s a m o n g st u s o n t h e PA N i n p a rt i c u l a r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

PA N i s t h e P ri n ci p l e A g e n t

Network?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: Network
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
moment.

But

j u st

A n d yo u w i l l sp e a k a b o u t t h a t i n a

b ri e f l y,

c o n t e n t s o f t h i s r e p o rt ?

if

you

could

su m m a ri s e

the

W h a t a l l e g a t i o n s w e re c o n t a i n e d i n

t h e r e p o rt ? W h a t i n f o r m a t i o n f o u n d i t s w a y i n t o t h e r e p o rt ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: Shu!
CHAIRPERSON:

S o r ry.

I a m so r r y, Mr P re t o ri u s.

Page 276 of 294

Yo u a r e

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
n o w r e f e r ri n g t o a re p o rt o r t h e r e p o rt ? W h i c h r e p o rt a r e y o u
re f e rr i n g t o ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : We l l , p e rh a p s t h a t i s t h e . . . i t i s b e t t e r
phrased as the information that ultimately founds it way into
t h e r e p o rt . L e t u s t a ke i t st e p - b y - st e p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n t o t h e r e p o rt a b o u t PA N 1 ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

C o l l a t e r a l l y re f e rr e d t o a s t h e PA N 1

I n v e st i g a t i o n a n d t h e PA N 1 R e p o rt .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
that is my fault.

But let us not get too far ahead and

I apologise.

In paragraph 82, you say you

p a rt i ci p a t e d i n b ri e f i n g s t h a t t o o k p l a c e a t t h e m i n i st r y a b o u t
t h e p r o j e ct , t h e PA N 1 P r o j e ct . C o r re ct ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
m e e t i n g s.

M r N j e n j e w a s a l s o p r e se n t a t t h e

I w o u l d u n d e r st a n d t h a t b e c a u se h e w a s H e a d o f

t h e D o m e st i c B r a n c h o f I n t e l l i g e n c e , h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n
20

d e a l i n g w i t h i t m o re d i r e ct l y.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : C o r re ct .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

W h a t so rt o f i n f o r m a t i o n w a s

d i s c u s s e d a t t h e s e b ri e f i n g s ?
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

The

I n v e st i g a t i n g

Te a m ,

w h i c h w a s a b i g t e a m , a l s o re p r e s e n t e d b y t h e L e g a l D i vi si o n
Page 277 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
o f t h e S S A , t h e i s s u e s w e r e a p r o j e ct b y t h e S S A u n d e r t h e
d i re ct i o n o f A rt h u r F r a s e r, w h o w a s t h e D e p u t y D i r e ct o r
G e n e r a l i n ch a r g e o f O p e ra t i o n s.
T h i s p ri n ci p l e n e t w o r k. . . t h i s P ri n ci p l e A g e n t N e t w o r k
P r o j e ct , n u m b e r o n e i t i s i m p o rt a n t f o r m e a n d I t h i n k y o u w i l l
agree,

to

st a t e

that

it

was

a

p ro p e rl y

c o n st i t u t e d

and

d e ve l o p e d p r o j e c t i n t h a t o n e , i t w a s a u t h o ri s e d b y t h e n
M i n i st e r R o n n i e K a sr i l s. T h a t i s n u m b e r o n e .
A n d n u m b e r t w o . I t w a s t h e n ro l l e d o u t . I t i s t h e c o v e r t
10

operation which normally intelligence organisations would
h a ve .

I w a n t t o b e v e r y cl e a r o n t h a t .

There was nothing

i l l e g a l a b o u t t h e s e t t i n g u p o f t h a t p ro j e ct .
CHAIRPERSON: The concept was a legit concept?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: It was a legitimate concept.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

A n d . . . b u t t h e p ro b l e m . . .

w h a t w e n t w ro n g , t h e r e w a s n o C o m m a n d a n d C o n t r o l .
T h e r e w a s n o o v e r si g h t .
Command and Control, number one, from the DG who
20

w a s t h e n M a n a l a M a n z i n i , ri g h t .

B e c a u s e a f t e r Fr a s e r

re p o rt e d t o h i m , i t i s v e r y i m p o rt a n t , a s N j e n j e w a s r e p o rt i n g
t o m e , N j e n j e w o u l d n e v e r h a v e re a d a p r o j e ct l i k e t h i s
w i t h o u t r e p o rt i n g t o m e .
H e m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n g i v e n t o m e d a y -t o - d a y, m i n u t e t o - m i n u t e a ct i vi t i e s b u t I w o u l d h a ve a n i n t e r e st a s a n
Page 278 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
a c c o u n t i n g o ff i c e r.

Th a t i s w h y I a m s a yi n g , w h e r e i t w e n t

wrong, there was no control. Number one. And I think it was
j u st l e f t t o u s, ri g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s

there

a n yt h i n g

wrong

with

its

o b j e ct i ve s ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: I would say there would have
b e e n n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h i t s o b j e ct i v e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

Wa s t h e r e a n yt h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h e

m a n n e r i n w h i c h i t c a r ri e d o u t i t s f u n ct i o n s ?
10

AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
w a s.

That is where the problem

P r o b l e m n u m b e r o n e i n r e l a t i o n t o t h a t q u e st i o n , w a s

o n e o f t h e p ro b l e m s w i t h t h a t p r o j e ct , n u m b e r o n e w a s, t h at
p r o j e ct w a s n o t l i n k e d t o h e a d q u a rt e r s.
T h e S e c u r e C o m m u n i c a t i o n S y st e m s t h a t r e c e i v e r e p o rt s
f ro m t h e i r v a ri o u s a g e n t s w a s n o t g o i n g t o h e a d q u a rt e r s.
T h e d a t a b a s e , t h e e n g i n e r o o m f o r t h a t s y st e m w a s h o u s e d
w h e r e ? I n A rt h u r F r a s e r ’s h o u s e .
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

S o r r y.

P e rh a p s

in

order

to

u n d e r st a n d t h e si g n i f i c a n c e o f t h a t p o i n t , i t i s n e c e s s a r y t o
20

explain.

R e p o rt s f ro m o p e r a t i ve s i n a n y p r o j e ct o f t h e S S A ,

where do they go?
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

R e p o rt s

would

go

to

o p e r a t i o n a l u n i t s t h r o u g h s e c u r e c o m m u n i c a t i o n , t h e n e r ve
c e n t r e o f w h i c h i s l o c a t e d a t t h e f a rm .

And the reasons for

t h o se a r e m u l t i f a c e t e d b u t t h e m o st i m p o rt a n t o n e i s t h e
Page 279 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
s e c u ri t y o f t h a t i n f ra st r u ct u r e .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

N o w i s t h a t a n e c e s sa r y p a rt o f t h e

o p e r a t i o n s t h a t t h e st a t e s e c u ri t y h a s ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

A b s o l u t e l y ve r y n e ce s s a r y

a n d c ri t i c a l .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

A n d a n y vi o l a t i o n o f t h a t

w o u l d b o r d e r a r o u n d vi o l a t i o n , s e r i o u s vi o l a t i o n o f s e c u ri t y
protocol.
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

N o w,

was that

process

f o l l o w e d i n r e l a t i o n t o PA N 1 , a c c o r d i n g t o t h e i n f o rm a t i o n
that you were learning?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

According to the information you

w e re g e t t i n g i n t h i s p r o c e s s.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

according

the

to

In

i n f o rm a t i o n

these

as

b ri e f i n g s

r e p o rt e d

by

and
the

i n v e st i g a t o r s. . . w h a t w a s t h e q u e st i o n , so r r y ? I l o st t h e . . .
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d e s c ri b e d a p r o c e s s t o t h e C h a i r
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
p r o j e ct

that

go

. . . o ff r e p o rt s f r o m o p e r a t i v e s i n a

through

a

ce rt a i n

c e n t r a l i s e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 280 of 294

process

and

are

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : . . . w i t h i n t h e S S A’s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: Right.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : . . . r e c o r d s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Now

the

q u e st i o n

i s,

was

that

p r o c e s s f o l l o w e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: No, it was not.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

. . . a c c o r d i n g t o t h e i n f o rm a t i o n yo u

re c e i v e d i n r e l a t i o n t o PA N 1 ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: No, no. No, it was not.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

Because number one, the

n e r v e c e n t r e o f t h a t . . . t h a t r e c e i ve d t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w a s n o t
l i n k e d t o S S A H e a d q u a rt e r s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s. W h e r e w a s i t l o ca t e d ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
20

I t w a s l o c a t e d a t A rt h u r

F r a s e r ’s h o u s e .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

What did it mean for the security of

your information?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

Wo w, i t i s se ri o u s!

Not only

f o r t h e s e c u ri t y o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n b u t a l s o f o r t h e s e c u r i t y o f
t h o se p e o p l e w h o g i v e y o u t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n b e c a u s e s o u r c e s,
Page 281 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
y o u r a s s e t s i n I n t e l l i g e n ce a r e v e r y c ri t i ca l .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

Yo u c a n n e v e r c o m p r o m i s e

b e ca u s e r e m e m b e r, t h e y b e co m e . . . t h e y a r e r e cr u i t e d o n t h e
b a si s o f t r u st .
N o w w h e n t h e y a re n o t g o i n g t o k n o w o r w h e n t h e y g e t
t o k n o w t h a t a ct u a l l y t h e s e r e p o rt s t h a t I a m s e n d i n g , t h e y
are not going to where I think they were getting to.

Then

t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m t h e r e . T h e re i s a p r o b l e m t h e re .
10

I n o t h e r co u n t ri e s, i t c a n g o t o t re a s o n .

Yo u c a n b e

charged for treason for that.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

L e t u s g o t o p a ra g r a p h 8 6 . 3 .

What

w a s t h e f u rt h e r. . . ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA: 86.3?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : P o i n t . . .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
ADV

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

In

re l a t i o n

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
20

“ T h e r e w e re n o r e p o rt i n g l i n e s t o h e a d o ff i c e w h i c h
g a ve M r F r a s e r a d a n g e r o u s a m o u n t o f u n b ri d l e d
p o w e r. . . ”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : 8 6 . 4 .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
“ T h e r e w a s n o o v e r si g h t o r a c c o u n t a b i l i t y f o r t h e
Page 282 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
p r o j e ct s p u r s u e d o r e x p e n d i t u r e i n c u r r e d . ”
C h a i r, c a n w e j u st . . . ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : N o , I a m l i st e n i n g .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

I j u st w a n t e d t o e x p a n d a

l i t t l e b i t o n t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s, p l e a s e .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

T h e e st i m a t e f o r t h e m e s s

t h a t h a p p e n e d o u t o f t h a t , I t h i n k i f I a m st i l l c o rr e ct a n d
Njenje mentioned it, I think it ran to about R 4 billion or
10

more.
And how did it happen?

T h e n u m b e r o f h o u s e s, s a f e

houses that were bought and Njenje gave account of the
n u m b e r o f c a r s t h a t w e r e b o u g h t w h i c h ra n i n t h e i r h u n d r e d s.
S o m e o f t h e m w e r e n e v e r u se d .
Now

all

these

things

come

out

as

a

re s u l t

of

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n b u t I c a n s a f e l y s a y C h a i r, o n e o f t h e m o st
b e a u t i f u l t h i n g s w h a t t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s d i d w a s t o se c u r e t h e
database.

The target was “get that database out of that

h o u s e ”.
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : O u t o f F r a s e r ’s h o u s e ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

B y h o o k o r c r o o k, b e ca u s e

n o n e t h e l e s s, i t i s n o t h i s. . . g e t i t o u t b y h o o k o r cr o o k. A n d
they did get it.
N o w, t h a t i s h o w t h e b e a n s w e r e s p i l t b e c a u se n o w t h e
cl e v e r g u y s w o u l d b e i n a p o si t i o n . . . w e r e i n a p o si t i o n n o w
Page 283 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
t o d o w n l o a d , t o a n a l y s e , a n d i t w a s d i s c o ve r e d t h a t :

“ Wo w,

there is a big, big problem!” That the agency was not aware
of.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

W h a t h a p p e n e d i n re l a t i o n . . .

o r p e rh a p s b e f o r e I a s k y o u t h a t q u e st i o n .

In paragraph 87,

y o u su m m a ri s e w h a t yo u r e f e r re d t o a s t h e t h r e e m a i n
p r o b l e m s w i t h t h e PA N 1 P r o j e ct .
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

The three main problems

w i t h t h e PA N P ro j e ct a s I r e ca l l w e re , i n m y vi e w, t h e r e f o re ,
10

t h e c e n t r a l i s a t i o n o f p o w e r, t h e a b i l i t y t o d r a w l a r g e a m o u n t s
o f m o n e y a n d t h e a b se n c e o f a c c o u n t a b i l i t y.
C e n t r a l i s a t i o n o f p o w e r.
p r o j e ct .

A rt h u r F r a s e r i n r e g a r d t o t h i s

H e r e h e a ct e d l i k e h e i s t h e D G .

That is one. And

b e ca u s e t h e r e w a s n o a c co u n t a b i l i t y, t h e r e w a s n o c o n t r o l b y
t h e D G . I t b e ca m e a f r e e f o r a l l . H e w a s a l a w o n t o h i m se l f .
And
re c i p i e n t s
b e ca u s e

I

think
when

t h e re
the

q u e st i o n s

was

a

c o n s e n su s

i n v e st i g a t o r s

would

be

ra i se d

asked,

the

a m o n g st

the

these

issues

lawyers

would

re s p o n d .
20

N o w i n t e r m s o f t h e a ct t h a t w a s i rr e g u l a r, t h a t w a s
illegal.

It was not supposed to have happened but it

h a p p e n e d . T h a t w a s t h e r e a l i t y o f t h e m a t t e r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n ?

I t s e e m s a p p a r e n t f ro m y o u r st a t e m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 8 8 t h a t
a t a st a g e a l l e x p e n d i t u r e r e l a t i n g t o a l l PA N 1 P r o j e ct s w e re
Page 284 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
st o p p e d .
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

I... what happened.

When

this thing was leaked, I do not know how it was leaked, this
p r o j e ct . A n d t h e n w h e n i n v e st i g a t i n g . . . r e m e m b e r, t h i s i s t h e
t i m e I a m st i l l n o t t h e r e w h e n t h i s p r o j e ct st a rt e d .
I a m st i l l n o t e v e n t h e r e w h e n t h e p r o j e ct w a s st o p p e d
b u t w h a t I r e ca l l w a s, w h e n t h e p r o j e ct w a s st o p p e d i t w a s
10

when it was realised that damage has been done.
The

m i n i st e r

i n s t ru ct e d

that

the

p ro j e ct

immediately

st o p . N o w, I h a v e t o sa y, u n d e r t h o s e c o n d i t i o n s t h e m i n i st e r
w o u l d h a ve b e e n j u st i f i e d b e c a u s e h i s d e p a rt m e n t i s n o t
a c c o u n t a b l e f o r a n y b o d y.
U n d e r t h o s e co n d i t i o n s t h e m i n i st e r, i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n
a l e g i t . . . b e ca u s e h e i s t h e o n l y o n e t h e n i n t h a t c a s e
b e ca u s e C e l e w h o . . . c o u l d h e h a v e . . . w o u l d h e h a v e d o n e
that

when

he

was

not

adjudicating,

m o n i t o ri n g

the

i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f t h e p r o j e ct ? T h e a n s w e r i s n o .
20

S o i n t h a t ca s e i t w a s g e n u i n e t h a t t h e m i n i st e r sh o u l d
c o m e i n . I a g r e e f u l l y w i t h C e l e o n t h a t d e ci si o n .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e i n v e st i g a t i o n o r t h e f r u i t s o f t h e

i n v e st i g a t i o n , w e r e t h e y r e f e r re d t o a n y l a w e n f o r c e m e n t
agency?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

U l t i m a t e l y, t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n

Page 285 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
w a s c o m p l e t e d a n d t h i s w o u l d h a v e b e e n n o w 2 0 11 , o n e . . .
b e f o r e N j e n j e r e si g n e d . W h a t w a s t h e q u e st i o n a d v o c a t e ?
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : We l l , l e t u s t a k e i t st e p - b y- st e p . Wa s
t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n c o m p l e t e ?
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : Ye s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Wa s i t t h e n r e f e r r e d ?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
winded

up

at

the

level

of

It was completed... it was

the

m i n i st e r

and

his

senior

m a n a g e m e n t i n c o n cu r r e n c e w i t h t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s.
10

The

re c o m m e n d a t i o n s o f t h e . . . n o , l e t m e n o t g o f u rt h e r w i t h t h a t .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : We l l , g o t o p a r a g ra p h 9 0 a n d t e l l t h e
Chair what happened.

AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
“I n f a ct , M i n i st e r C e l e h a d h i m s e l f t a k e n t h e vi e w t h a t
t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s a n d t h e l e g a l t e a m ,
Advocate

Willem

Hanekom,

had

headed by

e x h a u st e d

all

avenues of investigation and that it was now up to
t h e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s t o a ct a g a i n st t h o s e
20

implicated.”
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
w a n t e d t o a s k.

T h e r e i n l i e s t h e q u e st i o n t h a t I

T h e m a t t e r w a s t h e n re f e rr e d t o t h e l a w

e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n ci e s, w a s i t n o t ?
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

That

was

the

re c o m m e n d a t i o n n o w o f t h e c o l l e ct i v e a s h e a d e d b y t h e
Page 286 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
m i n i st e r.
I t i s a l s o i m p o rt a n t a d vo c a t e t o i n d i c a t e t h a t w h e n w e
t a l k o f e x h a u st i n g a l l i n t e rn a l p r o c e s s e s. . . r e m e m b e r, o u r
i n v e st i g a t o r s

in

terms

of

their

mandate,

they

can

only

i n v e st i g a t e m a t t e r s w i t h i n t h e o rg a n i s a t i o n .
If those matters are then, they have got implications of
c ri m i n a l i t y

or

what

h a ve

you,

then

it

goes

to

the

law

e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n ci e s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t .
10

AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

And that was or this is what

this paragraph is explaining.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s. We l l , i n p a r a g ra p h 8 9 i n t h e l a st
s e n t e n c e y o u s a y:
“ T h e m a t t e r w a s t h e n r e f e r r e d b y M i n i st e r N j e n j e t o
P e t e r B i s h o p a t t h e S p e ci a l I n v e st i g a t i n g U n i t . . . ”
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

Ye s , M r N j e n j e t h e n , a s t h e

c u st o d i a n o f t h a t i n v e st i g a t i o n , h a d t o b e t h e o n e w h o n o w
finalise

that

h a n d o ve r

over

of

the

d o s si e r

to

the

law

e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n ci e s.
20

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

Tw o t h i n g s t h e n h a p p e n e d ,

a n d w e c a n r e f e r h e r e , t o y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g o f M r N j e n j e ’s
e vi d e n c e , w h o d e a l w i t h i n p a r a g r a p h 9 0 .

What did you

learn?
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:
“I w a s u n a w a r e u n t i l I h e a r d M r N j e n j e ’s e vi d e n c e
Page 287 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s si o n t h a t a f t e r m y d e p a rt u r e f r o m
the

SSA,

he

w a s i n st r u ct e d

b y M i n i st e r

Cele

to

w i t h d r a w t h e PA N 1 R e p o rt f r o m S S A a n d w a s g i v e n
a n i n st r u ct i o n t o s t o p t h e PA N 1 I n v e st i g a t i o n . ”
L e t m e j u st c o rr e ct h e r e a g a i n .

I w a s u n a w a re u n t i l I

h e a r d M r N j e n j e ’s e vi d e n ce b e f o re t h e C o m m i s si o n .

That is

c o r r e ct w h a t t h e i s s u e i s h e r e .
A n d t h a t a f t e r m y d e p a rt u r e f r o m t h e S S A , w h i c h i s
a g a i n a l s o w ro n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

CHAIRPERSON: Because he left before you.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : H e l e f t b e f o re m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A M B A S S A D O R M A Q U E T U K A : H e l e f t b e f o re m e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

He

was

i n st r u ct e d

by

M i n i st e r C e l e . N o w I s u s p e ct t h e c o r r e ct ve r si o n h e r e w o u l d
h a ve b e e n : “ h e w a s i n st r u ct e d b y M r C e l e t o w i t h d r a w t h a t
re p o rt f r o m t h e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n ci e s w h i l st w e w e re st i l l
t h e r e b u t I w a s n e v e r i n f o rm e d ”.
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

I w a s n e ve r i n f o r m e d .

As I

s a y, I f i r st h e a rd a b o u t t h a t i n h i s e v i d e n ce t h i s y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, s o w h a t y o u w e re u n a w a r e o f w a s t h a t
he

w a s i n st ru ct e d t o

withdraw

the

e n f o r c e m e n t b e ca u s e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
Page 288 of 294

re p o rt f r o m t h e l a w

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
AMBASSADOR MAQUETUKA:

I n st r u ct e d . . . . b e c a u se h e

n e ve r re p o rt e d t o m e a b o u t t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : S o S S A s h o u l d r e a d S I U ?
AMBASSADOR

MAQUETUKA:

“He

was

w i t h d r a w t h e PA N 1 R e p o rt f r o m t h e S I U ”.

i n st r u ct e d

to

Yo u a r e c o r r e ct

there again.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s. I n a n y e v e n t , w h a t w e kn o w . . .
BREAK IN AUDIO RECORDING 01.52.38 to 01.56.57 –
10

microphones switched off from this point onwards]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n r e g a r d t o h e r o w n o b se r v a t i o n b u t

I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h a t t h a t m a t t e r s w i l l c o n c e r n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h o w a s ri g h t o r w r o n g o r . . .

Ja.

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

P u r vi e w o f w h a t t r a n s p i r e d .

I t ’s su r e l y a m a t t e r b e t w e e n t h e

C o m m i s si o n a n d h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s. I s t h e r e so m e t h i n g w e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] .

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

O n l y i n p a rt . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] I a m t o l d

C h a i r so i t i s i m p o rt a n t t h a t w e h a v e a re c o r d , p a rt i c u l a rl y o f
t h e p r o c e d u r a l s t e p s t h a t w e t a k e t o a c co m m o d a t e t h e
v e r s i o n s o f t h e i m p l i c a t e d p a rt i e s.
Page 289 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

I know that we should be able to

f i n i s h w i t h i n a n h o u r a n d w e ca n a rr a n g e a n o t h e r t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

I c a n v a s se d t h i s p o s si b i l i t y w i t h t h e

i n v e st i g a t o r w h o s a y s p r o vi d e d a s w e t h o u g h t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] i s
q u i t e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

. . . [ I n d i st i n ct ]

I t i s j u st a p i t y t h a t w h e n w e h a ve g o n e a s

far as we had to try and finish and then we can’t finish.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

G r e a t p i t y y e s.

We l l I w i l l a l so t e l l y o u , y o u s a w w h a t

h a p p e n e d , w e w e re a l l t r yi n g t o f i n i s h u p a n d o b vi o u sl y w i t h
your cooperation we finished today or this evening.

I think

t h a t o n e c a n – I t h i n k t h a t o n e s h o u l d b e d o n e , M r P re t o ri u s I
t h i n k w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e i s o n e o f t w o t h i n g s, o n e , w e a re
going to have to adjourn, but the one option is of course that
t h e A m b a s s a d o r c a n b e c a l l e d b a c k o n a d a t e t o b e a rr a n g e d
20

t o f i n i sh , b u t a l s o i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t i f w h a t h e h a s n o t
c o v e r e d , w h a t w a s l e f t i s v e r y l i m i t e d m y o w n t h i n ki n g i s i t
c o u l d b e c o v e r e d b y w a y o f a n a ff i d a vi t s o h e c o u l d b e a s k e d
t o d e a l w i t h A , B , C , D i s su e s i n a n a ff i d a vi t a n d t h e
re s p o n s e i n a n a ff i d a vi t a n d t h e n n e xt t i m e o r a t a c e rt a i n
st a g e s o m e b o d y c a n g o o n r e c o r d t o s a y o n t h i s d a y t h e
Page 290 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
e l e ct ri ci t y f o r ce d u s t o st o p b e f o r e h e c o u l d f i n i s h a n d t o
c o m p l e t e h i s e vi d e n ce t h i s i s w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g .

If it is an

a ff i d a vi t , h e ca n s a y t h a t h e r e i s a n a ff i d a vi t t h a t c o ve r s
what he did

not

c o ve r a n d i t c o u l d b e m a r ke d

exhibit

w h a t e v e r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

We co u l d d e a l w i t h t h e r e s p o n s e t o

t h e t o p si x a ff i d a v i t s i n t h a t w a y
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

I am also told though I am very

re l u ct a n t t o h e a r w h a t w a s t o l d t o m e , i s t h a t t h e v e n u e i s
a v a i l a b l e t o m o r r o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , w e l l t o m o rr o w i n t h e m o r n i n g I h a v e a

t e l e co n f e re n c e c o m m i t m e n t .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t h e n h e h a s t o f l y, s o I a m

re l i e v e d t o h e a r t h a t C h a i r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

H e h a s t o f l y t o m o rr o w ?

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

S u n d a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

S u n d a y, w h a t c o u l d b e e xp l o r e d m a y b e

either tomorrow afternoon, I am not sure whether we should
20

j u st l e a v e i t t o o n e o f t h o se t w o o p t i o n s, I a m n o t s u re , b u t
t o m o rr o w a f t e r n o o n c o u l d b e e xp l o r e d , I a m n o t s u re .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

N o C h a i r i f I m a y s a y w e h a ve t o

c o r r e ct t h i s a ff i d a vi t i n m a n y p a r t s.

A s I u n d e r st a n d t h e

A m b a s sa d o r ’s re s p o n s e t o t h e a ff i d a vi t s, h e d o e s n ’ t r e a l l y
t a k e i s s u e w i t h t h e m . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] .
Page 291 of 294

Any alterations that

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
might

co n c e rn

your

findings

ultimately

Chair

are

o b se r v a t i o n s t h a t a ri s e a f t e r t h a t re s p o n s e , w h i c h d o n ’ t
re a l l y c o n ce r n t h e f a ct u a l e vi d e n ce , t h e y a r e a n i n d e p e n d e n t
re c o r d i n r e l a t i o n t o w h i c h h e h a s n o q u a r r e l , s o i t w o u l d b e
a

f a i rl y

st r a i g h t f o r w a r d

A m b a s sa d o r ’s r e s p o n s e .

e x e r ci s e

to

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

the

W h a t i s i m p o rt a n t t h o u g h i s t h a t

t h a t r e s p o n se f i n d s i t s w a y o n t o a re c o r d o f s o rt s a n d w e
h a ve t o f i n d so m e w h e r e o f d o i n g t h a t , s o t h o se a ff i d a vi t s a r e
heard.
10

T h e y d o n ’ t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] v e r s i o n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t h e y

m e r e l y w o u l d re s p o n d a n d t h e n a n y co n si d e ra t i o n o f d e a l i n g
with the issues raised there can be dealt with directly with
t h o se p e r so n s i f n e ce s s a r y b y w a y o f a n . . . [ i n d i st i n c t ] , so i t
doesn’t

seem

to

me

to

be

too

much

of

a

challenge

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] , i n f a ct w e f i n i s h e d t h e s a l i e n t p a rt o f o n e o r
t w o p a r a g r a p h s, s o i t i s o n l y t h a t t h a t n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i t h
a s i n a c o rr e ct e d a ff i d a vi t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, n o ri g h t , I t h i n k y o u a r e ri g h t ,

p r o b a b l y I t h i n k w h a t w e s h o u l d d o i s y o u w i l l re f l e ct o n
p o s si b l e g o i n g t h a t r o u t e b y w a y o f a n a ff i d a vi t a n d t h a t
20

s e e m s t o b o t h o f u s t o b e t h e ri g h t w a y t o g o .

That is one,

t w o I t h i n k t h a t b e ca u s e w e a r e n o t b e i n g r e co r d e d n o w
w h e n n e xt t h e C o m m i s si o n i s si t t i n g b e f o r e t h e n e xt w i t n e s s
st a rt s, I t h i n k y o u s h o u l d b e t h e re s o t h a t w e c a n j u st p l a c e
on record the way forward.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

That is on Monday morning?
Page 292 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l o n M o n d a y w e a re m e a n t t o h e a r t h e

e vi d e n c e o f a c e r t a i n w i t n e s s a n d Tu e s d a y I h a v e b e e n t o l d
that that witness is not going to be able to come.
e i t h e r g o i n g t o b e We d n e s d a y o r T h u r s d a y.

So it is

Ms Hofmeyr will

k n o w i n t e r n a l l y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

I w i l l b e h e re , i t w i l l b e a s h o rt

finding.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , i t c o u l d b e t w o m i n u t e s/ t h r e e m i n u t e s

j a , s o w e ca n s t a rt , y o u c a n b e h e r e w h e n w e st a rt o r
10

w h a t e v e r.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

S o b u t f o r a l so t h e m e d i a i f t h e y a r e st i l l

h e r e t h e re w i l l b e n o h e a ri n g o n M o n d a y a n d Tu e s d a y
b e ca u s e t h e w i t n e s s w h o w a s g o i n g t o co m e I h a v e b e e n t o l d
h e i s n o t a v a i l a b l e t o c o m e a n d s o w e m a y b e si t t i n g o n
We d n e sd a y b u t i f t h a t d o e sn ’ t h a p p e n w e c e rt a i n l y w i l l b e
si t t i n g o n T h u r s d a y, s o t h e m e d i a w i l l b e i n f o r m e d a b o u t
We d n e sd a y o n c e t h a t i s s e t t l e d .
O k a y I t h i n k t h a t i t re m a i n s f o r m e t o o n c e a g a i n t h a n k
20

y o u A m b a s sa d o r f o r m a ki n g y o u r se l f a va i l a b l e t o co m e t o t h e
a s si st a n c e o f t h e C o m m i s si o n . We a p p r e ci a t e i t v e r y m u c h . I
a m so r r y t h a t w e c o u l d n o t w r a p u p y o u r e vi d e n c e , w e m a y
b e a t f a u l t t o – b u t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] w i l l b e f o u n d t o i f p o s si b l e
w i t h o u t y o u h a vi n g t o t r a v e l h e r e b u t Mr P r e t o ri u s w i l l re f l e ct
o n t h e w a y t o d o i t , b u t w e a p p re ci a t e i t ve r y m u ch t h a t yo u
Page 293 of 294

10 JULY 2020 – DAY 231
t o o k t h e t r o u b l e a n d ca m e , I a m s o rr y w e h a d t o si t s o l a t e ,
b u t I a m h o p i n g t h a t w e w i l l st i l l h a v e m o r e p a st a n d p r e s e n t
D i r e ct o r s G e n e ra l a n d Mi n i st e r s a n d D e p u t y Mi n i st e r s co m e
f o r w a r d a n d s h a r e w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h a t t h e y kn o w.
Thank you very much.
AMBASSADOR MAQETUKA:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

Thank you.

Okay we are therefore

going to adjourn, I think we have never sat till so late.
We adjourn.
10

REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 1 5 J U LY 2 0 2 0

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