C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 10 SEPTEMB ER 2019 D AY 1 6 0 20 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE ON 10 SEPT EMBER 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Ms N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e w e r e a d y ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s w e a r e r e a d y th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s s t a r t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. B e f o r e y o u w e h a v e p l a c e d E x h i b i t C C 3 1 f o r th is w i t n e s s . W e a r e g o i n g t o a s k fo r a s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t a f t e r t h e t e s ti m o n y o f t h is w i t n e s s t o p u t th e r e l e v a n t f il e s 10 f o r t h e n e x t w i t n e s s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay that is fine. ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you, yes thank you. C h a ir w e a r e r e a d y t o le a d th e e v i d e n c e o f M r Va n Vu u r e n . M a y h e b e s w o r n in ? H i s e v i d e n c e c o n t i n u e s fr o m t h e D T T p r o je c t a s s t a t e d b e fo r e t h e C h a ir b y M s M o k h o b o a n d a ls o D o c t o r M o t h i b i o n Fr id a y t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n ? R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Anton Lourens Janse Va n Vu u r e n . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : N o . REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? Page 2 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : S o h e lp m e G o d . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. B e fo r e th e w i tn e s s c o m m e n c e s m a y I a s k t h a t th is E x h i b i t 3 1 b e a d m i t t e d a s – in t o evidence? CHAIRPERSON: 10 T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a i n i n g t h e s t a te m e n t o f Mr A n t o n L o u r e n s J a n s e Va n Vu u r e n a n d a n n e x u r e s w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t CC31. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Va n Vu u r e n c o u l d y o u p le a s e – t h e r e i s a fi le t h a t h a s b e e n p la c e d b e f o r e y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I a m – le t m e c l e a r t h a t Ms N o r m a n b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u a r e m a k i n g a m is ta k e t h a t I m ig h t m a k e m y s e l f s o I w a n t to . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a k e i t c le a r. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a l w a y s g e t c o n f u s e d w h e t h e r th e s u r n a m e w o u l d b e J a n s e n Va n Vu u r e n o r ju s t Va n Vu u r e n . S o a r e y o u M r J a n s e n Va n Vu u r e n o r a r e y o u M r Va n Vu u r e n ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Vu u r e n Mr C h a ir. Page 3 of 174 I a m J a n s e n Va n 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n s e n Va n Vu u r e n ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u fo r b e i n g … CHAIRPERSON: So you see I helped you. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : Th a n k y o u . Yo u h e lp e d m e t h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . M r J a n s e n Va n Vu u r e n w h e r e a r e y o u c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : I am employed in the S o u th A fr ic a n P o s t O ff ic e . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . C o u l d y o u ju s t s t a te y o u r q u a l if ic a ti o n s for the record please? 10 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : I m a tr ic u la t e d i n 1 9 7 8 I k n o w t h a t i t s ta n d s th e r e 1 9 7 9 i t w a s a n e r r o r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n d I s t a r t e d m y c a r e e r a s a t e l l e r i n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o s t O ff ic e in D e c e m b e r 1 9 7 8 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . Yo u h a v e m a d e t h e – y o u w a n t t o c o r r e c t w h a t y o u p u t i n p a r a g r a p h 5 C h a ir. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s , y e s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : A t p a g e 2 . W h e r e h e s a y s h e m a tr i c u la t e d in 1 9 7 9 h e s a y s h e w o u l d l ik e t o c h a n g e t h a t t o 1 9 7 8 . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : B u t a s u p p l e m e n t a r y w i ll b e d o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t th a t i s f in e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . A n d y o u w e r e t e ll i n g t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e n y o u m o v e d t h r o u g h t h e r a n k s – Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a I m o v e d t h r o u g h t h e Page 4 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ranks and was promoted as a senior manager in 1997. I served in v a r io u s p o s i ti o n s in t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o s t O ff ic e a s s e n i o r m a n a g e r a n d i s c u r r e n tl y d e p l o y e d in th e S o u th A fr i c a n P o s t O ffi c e P r o je c t M a n a g e m e n t o ff ic e i n t h e s tr a te g i c d e p a r t m e n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Th r o u g h th e y e a r s I b u il t u p e x t e n s iv e e x p e r i e n c e a n d e x p e r ti s e i n t h e fo ll o w i n g [i n d is t in c t ] a r e a s in th e p o s t o ff ic e i n c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t , p r o d u c t m a n a g e m e n t , r e g i o n a l m a n a g e m e n t , o p e r a t io n s m a n a g e m e n t , p r o j e c t m a n a g e m e n t , 10 b u s i n e s s s o l u ti o n s fo r n e w i n n o v a ti o n s a n d s e r v ic e s , i m p le m e n t a t i o n o f n e w i n n o v a t io n s . I h a v e b e e n a p p o in t e d a s th e S o u t h A fr i c a n P o s t O ff ic e Pr o je c t M a n a g e r f o r t h e B r o a d c a s ti n g D i g i t a l M i g r a ti o n P r o j e c t i n November 2014. M y r o l e in t h e p r o j e c t is t o e n s u r e t h e s u c c e s s f u l e x e c u ti o n o f th e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o s t O ff ic e r o l e a s a d is tr i b u t io n p a r t n e r in a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e D T T M O t h a t w a s s i g n e d o ff b e t w e e n U S A A S A f o r t h e r e n d e r in g o f t h e s e r v i c e . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s th a n k y o u . Yo u – b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e t h e r e i s a d e m o n s tr a ti o n t h a t y o u w is h t h e s h o w t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . N o w c o u l d y o u j u s t b r ie f ly t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t is i t 20 t h a t y o u w a n t t o d e m o n s tr a t e t o h i m ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : M r C h a ir I j u s t w a n t to – t h e r e is t w o S E B t y p e s i n v o l v e d . Th e o n e i s t h e D T T a n te n n a e a n d t h e o th e r o n e is t h e s a t e ll it e d e c o d e r. If y o u a ll o w m e I w o u l d j u s t lik e to take you through how it works? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 5 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n d th e in t e l li g e n c e t h a t h a v e b e e n b u il t i n fr o m th e d is tr i b u t io n a s p e c t o n t h e m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y d o s o . ADV THANDI NORMAN: T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir. Okay sorry you might h a v e t o j u s t s t a n d j u s t b e h in d th a t o t h e r m i c r o p h o n e . CHAIRPERSON: J a , j a h e w i ll – i f y o u w o u ld b e a b l e t o g i v e in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m – fr o m w h e r e y o u a r e p l e a s e d o th a t s o th a t y o u w il l 10 b e r e c o r d e d p r o p e r ly. ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Th a n k s . C a n I a s k th a t y o u – th a t w e g o t o t h a t [ in d is ti n c t ] o r w e c a n s ta r t a t t h i s o n e f ir s t ? M r C h a ir t h e o n e o n y o u r l e ft s i d e is t h e o n e t h a t w o r k s w i t h th e a n t e n n a e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : I do not know if you w i ll b e a b l e t o s e e t h e a n t e n n a e t h e r e in t h e w in d o w. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n d t h e n th e d e c o d e r is h e r e o n t h e w h i t e p ie c e o f p a p e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O n th e t h in g . S o y o u w o u ld s e e t h a t t h e e q u i p m e n t is e x a c t ly t h e s a m e a s th a t o f M T N a n d Page 6 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h e c u r r e n t o n e s t h a t i s u s e d b y E T V f o r o p e n v i e w. S o it is t h e d e c o d e r a n d a n t e n n a e a n d t h e n t h a t g u y ’s o n t h a t s id e i s a ls o a d e c o d e r f o r t h e s a te ll i te a n d t h e n a ls o i t i s l in k e d t o a s a t e l li t e d is h o n t h e o u ts id e . I a m j u s t g o in g t o s h o w y o u h o w t h e D T T a n t e n n a e w o r k s . S o w e g o t – c u r r e n t ly w e g o t i n t h e – t h e r e i s c u r r e n t ly t w e lv e c h a n n e ls a v a i la b le o n t h e – o n t h e D T T t h e d a t e w o r k a n d th e y a r e a ll fr e e to E d g e C h a n n e ls . O n th e M T N s i d e w e c u r r e n t ly i t is a s u b s c r i p ti o n . S o if y o u a lr e a d y o n M T N y o u a r e a lr e a d y o n d ig i ta l . I f y o u a r e o n O p e n Vi e w o f E T V a l s o a lr e a d y o n d i g i t a l . Th e n t h e a r e a s th e n c u r r e n tl y i n 10 t h e a r e a s t h a t is – t h a t i s n o t c o v e r e d b y t h e M a x – M a x 7 th e r e is c u r r e n tly s e v e n c h a n n e ls a v a i la b le a n d n i n e t e e n r a d i o s t a t i o n s . I am ju s t g o i n g t o t a k e y o u th r o u g h t h e o n e f o r t h e D T T s i d e . T h e r e is S A B C if y o u c a n j u s t g o t h r o u g h t h e c h a n n e ls . SAB2, 3, 4, SABC Encore, S A B C N e w s H D , P a r l ia m e n t , E - T V, E x tr a , E - M o v ie s , E- Tu n e s a n d th a t is y o u r c o m m u n ic a r e r a d io s t a ti o n . N o w M r C h a ir y o u w o u ld s e e w h e r e w e r o ll e d o u t w e h a v e s t a r te d in t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e a n d t h e fa r r e m o t e a r e a s . S o m e o f t h o s e a r e a s d id n o t e v e n h a v e s i g n a l t h e y n e v e r h a d a T V. N o w m o s t o f t h e a r e a s h a d e i t h e r T V 2 w i t h s n o w fl a k e s a n d t h e y a ls o h a d m a y b e n o t S A B C 3 a n d 1 . 20 S o y o u c a n s e e o n a n t e n n a e s id e what is the improvement. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : a l lo w m e w e w i ll g o t o th e D T T H o n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Page 7 of 174 I f w e c a n g o – if y o u 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O n t h e D T T H – o h i t is r e m o t e s o r r y. Yo u c a n j u s t g o a l s o t h e r e t h r o u g h t h e c h a n n e ls S A B C 3 , S A B C E n c o r e , S A B C N e w s , E - T V, P a r li a m e n t a r y, J o h n n y t h a t is a c o m m u n i ty T V, E l f . N o w t h is i s t h e a d d i ti o n a l c h a n n e ls th a t is – t h a t is c u r r e n tly o n t h e s a t e ll it e s id e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n d s o t h e r e is m a n y m o r e – w h e n th e p e r s o n c a n n o t o r a h o u s e h o ld t h a t h a s b e e n r e c e iv in g t h e D T T a n d i t c a n n o t r e c e iv e th e s i g n a l w e is s u e t h e n t h e D T T s a t e l li t e 10 d e c o d e r. A n d t h e c h a n n e l s h o w e v e r t h e r e i s th a t t h e r e i s m o r e c h a n n e l s c u r r e n t ly a v a il a b l e o n t h e c h a n n e l a n d t h a t c u r r e n t ly l e a d s t o s o m e s o c i a l p o li ti c a l p r o b le m s w h ic h h a s t o b e a d d r e s s e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN: S o a r e y o u i n s ta ll in g b o th i n a ll t h e c o m m u n i ti e s o r a h o u s e h o l d a s a c h o i c e ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : I a m g o i n g t o e x p l a i n to you how the process works. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s a lr ig h t th a n k y o u . 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t . I d o n o w k n o w i f th e r e is a n y th i n g e ls e o n th e s c r e e n s y o u w a n t t o s e e M r C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o i f y o u t h in k t h a t is e n o u g h I d o n o t – I th in k that should be fine. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . Page 8 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Mr C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u M r … M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Fr o m a d i s t r i b u t i o n s id e o n t h e – a s t h e l a s t a s p e c t b e f o r e I g o o v e r t o th e p r e s e n t a ti o n w h a t w e h a v e d o n e is t h e e q u i p m e n t . W e h a v e c r e a te d a b a r c o d e f o r t h e fo u r ty p e s o f e q u ip m e n t . T h a t is t h e a n t e n n a e f o r t h e D T T a n d t h e D T T d e c o d e r. 10 d e c o d e r. T h e n i t is t h e s a t e l li t e d is h a s w e l l a s th e s a t e ll i te T h e y h a v e – a ll fo u r o f t h e m h a v e a p r o d u c t c o d e w h ic h is f o r m u l a t e d in t o a b a r c o d e . I n th e b a r c o d e w e b u il t in t h e n a m e o f t h e s u p p li e r, t h e ty p e o f e q u i p m e n t a n d t h e n a ls o th e s e r i a l n u m b e r w h i c h r e fl e c ts t h e q u a n ti ty o f t h e s p e c if ic p r o d u c t . N o w fr o m o u r s i d e w e c a n t h e n m a n a g e a n d c o n tr o l a l l t h e s to c k th r o u g h t h o s e s e r i a l n u m b e r s a t a n y p o in t i n ti m e . I f w e – i f t h e r e is a n y t h in g t h a t c o m e s th a t is b r o k e n t h a t m u s t b e – th a t is fa u l t y o r r e c e iv e d b y g e t ti n g t h e – b y r e a d in g th e b a r c o d e w e k n o w i m m e d i a te ly t o w h o d o e s i t b e l o n g . W e k n o w w h a t is t h e e r r o r c o d e a n d w e p u t a l l th a t i n r e p o r ts f o r U S A A S A w h o w i ll t h e n t a k e i t u p w i t h th e s u p p li e r s . T h a t is w h a t I h a v e o n t h e d e m o n s tr a ti o n 20 s id e . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n c a n w e t h e n m o v e o n t o th e s li d e s n o w. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s p le a s e . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Ye s t h a n k y o u . C h a ir m o s t ly h is e v i d e n c e is c o n ta in e d o n th e s li d e s b u t h e h a s d e a l t w i t h i t i n h is a ffi d a v i t . Page 9 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is fi n e . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : W e t h o u g h t i t w ill b e q u ic k e r t o d e a l w i th i t t h r o u g h t h o s e s l id e s t h a n k y o u . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : M r C h a ir I a m g o i n g to fir s t g iv e y o u ju s t a h i g h li g h t o n t h e b a c k g r o u n d . I f w e c a n g o t o … ADV THANDI NORMAN: Paragraph 9 at page 3. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : P a g e 3 . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Oh sorry you mean the slides? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : A lr i g h t s o r r y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : P a g e n u m b e r, n u m b e r 20. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : If we can go to page number 20. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : I a m j u s t w a i ti n g . J a o n t h e – t h a t is th e fa c i li t a t o r I h a v e i n d ic a t e d w e h a v e a li g n e d t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th e s t a te m e n t . S o I t h i n k y o u w il l g e t a 20 g o o d u n d e r s t a n d i n g i f w e – if w e h a v e g o n e th r o u g h t h e [ in d is ti n c t ] p r e s e n t a ti o n . I f w e c a n g o to s li d e n u m b e r 3 . The next one. Thank y o u . Mr C h a ir I h a v e – I j u s t w a n t to – w a n t t o e x p l a in t o y o u h o w t h e – t h e t r a n s m i s s i o n a n d t h e s ig n a l w o r k b e c a u s e i t is d ir e c tly l in k e d h o w w e i s s u e th e e q u i p m e n t . Yo u w o u l d s e e o n t h e l e f t s i d e i s t h e – is t h e tr a n s m is s io n c e n tr e o f C e n t a c t h e y s e n d th e s ig n a l t o t h e s a te ll i te . T h e Page 10 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 s a t e ll i te w il l s e n d t h e s i g n a l t o t h e c e n tr e t o w e r s . N o w th e r e i s c u r r e n tly 1 8 3 o f t h o s e te r r e s tr i a l t o w e r s a c r o s s th e c o u n tr y. N o w if t h e person… CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. I c a n s e e w h e r e i t i s w r i t te n C e n t a c tr a n s m is s io n c e n tr e o n m y – o n p a g e 2 0 t h a t is li g h t th e r e w h i c h y o u are showing there. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t I a m l o o k i n g f o r t h e c e n tr e w h e r e y o u s a y th e s a t e ll i te s e n d s tr a n s m is s io n to . 10 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : S o – j a s o i f y o u lo o k o n t h e le f t h a n d o f t h e b lo c k i t s h o w s th o s e t w o l in e s g o in g u p to t h e s a t e ll i te . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR A N TO N LOURENS JANSEN VA N VUUREN: That is the tr a n s m is s io n t h a t C e n t a c s e n d s t o th e s a te lli t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h e n M r C h a ir i f y o u lo o k d o w n i t c o m e s t h e n d o w n w i th t h e a r r o w t o t h e to w e r s . Th e a r r o w on the right. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h e r e a r e t w o a r r o w s o n e g o e s a l m o s t v e r t ic a l ly down. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s t h a t c o r r e c t j a ,. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 11 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : To t h e s a t e l li t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h o s e a r e t h e to w e r s ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h e n i t w i ll – t h e n y o u w i ll s e e t h e s i g n a l w i ll c o m e d o w n f r o m t h e s a te ll i te t o t h e t o w e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : N o w w h a t w il l h a p p e n is i f t h e p e r s o n q u a li f y f o r a D T T d e c o d e r t h a t s ig n a l h e r e c e iv e s i t 10 t h r o u g h t h e to w e r a n d i t w ill g o t h e n t o t h e a n t e n n a e a t h is h o u s e . I f y o u g o – i f y o u m o v e t o t h e r i g h t t o t h e b l o c k u n d e r n e a t h to t h e r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is th e o n e y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t y e s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t ja . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is t h e o n e c o m i n g f r o m t h e to w e r s ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e l e f t h a n d s id e ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s t o th e a n t e n n a e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t o th e l e f t o f – t o o u r r ig h t ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h a t is r i g h t j a . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s 1 0 0 % . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Th e n i f y o u – i f th e h o u s e h o l d th e r e is – th e y c a n n o t r e c e iv e t h e D T T a n t e n n a e w e is s u e t h e m w i th a s a t e l li t e d e c o d e r a n d y o u w i ll s e e fr o m t h e s a t e l li t e o n t o p Page 12 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 r ig h t th e r e i t ta k e s t h e s i g n a l d ir e c tl y t o t h e s a t e lli t e d is h a t t h e h o u s e . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y I a m j u s t g o in g to a s k y o u r e p e a t w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t s a i d . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h e h o u s e h o l d d o e s n o t h a v e ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : If the household – if t h e h o u s e h o ld d o n o t q u a l i fy f o r a D T T b e c a u s e i t c a n n o t r e c e iv e t h e s ig n a l t h r o u g h t h e t o w e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R A N TO N LOURENS JANSEN VA N V U U R E N : W e is s u e t h a t h o u s e h o l d t h e n w it h a s a t e l li t e d e c o d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n d i t w o r k s e x a c tly o n t h e s a m e c o n c e p t a s M n e t , D S T V. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n d E - T V c u r r e n tly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : I t g o e s th e n d ir e c t ly t o t h e s a t e l li t e d is h . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h a t is r i g h t . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N : A n d s o r r y C h a ir th a t d e m o n s tr a ti o n a s s u m e s t h a t e a c h h o u s e h o ld w il l h a v e a fl a t s c r e e n a n d w h a t if i t i s a d i ffe r e n t TV? Page 13 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Th e T V i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r i t w il l r e c e iv e b o t h s ig n a ls . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : I t w il l ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a b o t h s i g n a ls . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Okay thank you. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Mr C h a i r I t h i n k n o w t h a t is t h e – I a m n o t a t e c h n ic a l e x p e r t o n t h in g s b u t t h a t is t h e b e s t t h a t I c a n d e m o n s tr a t e i t t o y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is n o w a t p a g e 2 1 . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : R i g h t w e g o in g t o t h e n t o p a g e n u m b e r, n u m b e r 2 1 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h e P o s t O ff ic e b e c a u s e o f o u r la r g e in fr a s tr u c t u r e t h r o u g h o u t S o u t h A fr ic a a n d b e c a u s e o f o u r c u r r e n t e x p e r i e n c e t h a t w e d e a l t w i t h i n th e p a s t w e h a v e d o n e m a j o r b la c k e m p o w e r m e n t s h a r e s c h e m e s w h ic h a l l in v o lv e a p p lic a ti o n t e c h n o l o g y a n d p la t f o r m s . T h e n t h e P o s t O ff ic e w e in t h e parcel – we in the parcel business. So because of that experience and 20 t h i n g s w e h a d a l l th a t w e h a v e d o n e w i th t h is p r o je c t i s th a t w e l i n k t h e a p p lic a ti o n a n d t h e p a r c e l t h i n g t o g e t h e r. B e c a u s e e n d o f th e d a y t h e h o u s e h o l d h a s to r e g i s te r. W e c r e a t e d a n a p p lic a ti o n fo r m f o r t h a t . W e w i ll c o m e to it a n d t h e n w e h a v e t o is s u e h i m t h e k i t t h a t h e q u a l if i e s f o r a n d I a m g o i n g t o ta k e y o u t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s h o w it w o r k s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . Page 14 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O ff ic e have then entered into a MOU with N o w f o r th is th e P o s t the Department of C o m m u n i c a t io n s w i t h U S A A S A a n d t h e S A B C o n 3 1 J u l y 2 0 1 2 a n d f o r t h e r e n d e r in g o f t h e s e r v i c e a s a – a s t h e d iv is io n p a r t n e r w e e n t e r in t o a D T T M A w i th U S A A S A d ir e c tly. T h a t M O A h a v e e x p i r e d in 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 8 w e h a v e r e n e w e d i t a n d th e n e w e x p i r y d a t e i s n o w 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 2 1 . W e g o t o th e – t o p a g e n u m b e r 2 2 . I n i ti a lly w h e n t h e r o l l o u t w a s p l a n n e d i t w a s p l a n n e d f o r a t h r e e y e a r p e r i o d a n d b a s e d o n t h a t th r e e y e a r p e r i o d o u r p la n n i n g w a s t h a t w e h a v e t o is s u e a b o u t 5 8 0 0 10 d e c o d e r s a d a y. Yo u c a n – y o u c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h e i m p a c t o f t h a t o n a … CHAIRPERSON: A day over how long? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O v e r a p e r i o d o f t h r e e years. CHAIRPERSON: Shoo. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : S o i f y o u t a k e 5 m i l li o n d e c o d e r s in t o c o n s i d e r a t io n th a t – s o i t is a m a s s iv e p r o je c t. It in v o lv e d h u g e o p e r a ti o n a l e x p e r t is e a n d l o g is ti c s a n d t h e P o s t O ff ic e a r e p e r fe c t ly p o s i ti o n e d f o r th a t . W e h a v e s t a r t e d w i t h t h e p i lo t i n t h e 20 S K a r e a b e c a u s e i t w a s o n e o f t h e p r io r i t y a r e a s to h a v e r a d i o s il e n c e w i t h th e s a t e l li t e s th e y h a v e p u t u p i n th a t a r e a a n d w e s ta r t e d i n 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d i t h a s b e e n c o m p l e t e d in t h a t a r e a . W e – th e D O C t h e n f o r th e s e c o n d p h a s e a n d I a m g o i n g t o c o m e t o t h e d e t a i l o n t h a t t h e d e li v e r y p l a n w a s a p p r o v e d f o r o n th e 11 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 a n d t h e – a n d t h e l a t e s t p l a n i t is b a s e d o n t h e c o m p l e ti o n o f t h e r e g i s t r a t io n a n d Page 15 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 d is t r i b u t io n o f t h e c u r r e n t 1 4 0 5 0 7 3 k i ts t h a t U S A A S A h a v e p u r c h a s e d . W e w a n t t o g e t t h a t d o n e . W e w a n t to g e t i t o u t o f th e w a y a n d w e a r e g o i n g t o s h o w y o u w h e r e w e c u r r e n t ly i n th e p r o c e s s w i t h t h a t . The s e c o n d o n e i s t h a t t h e y w a n t t o e m b a r k o n th e r e m a i n i n g 3 . 3 m i ll io n o n a v o u c h e r m o d e l a n d t h a t m o d e l is c u r r e n tly u n d e r r e v i e w b y t h e M i n is t e r. Th e n b a s e d o n t h e – o n th e la t e s t c o m p l e ti o n d a t e t h e r o l lo u t is n o w s c h e d u l e d f o r c o m p l e ti o n b y J u n e 2 0 2 1 . I f w e c a n g o to th e – t o the next slide, slide number 23. scope 10 of work i n v o lv e d in T h e r e is a l o t o f s t a k e h o ld e r s a n d th is project. The Department of C o m m u n i c a t io n s , D e p a r t m e n t o f a g I K A S A , T h e B u r e a u o f S t a n d a r d s t h e y w e r e i n v o lv e d i n t h e te s ti n g o f t h e e q u i p m e n t, C e n t a c a s t h e s ig n a l p r o v i d e r, D O C a s t h e r a d io fr e q u e n c y s p e c tr u m a n h a r m o n is a ti o n w i t h n e i g h b o u r i n g c o u n t r i e s a s w e ll a s th e P u b li c Aw a r e n e s s C a m p a i g n s t h e y w e r e – t h e y a r e d r iv in g t h a t . U S A A S A w a s … B u r e a u o f S t a n d a r d s t h e y w e r e i n v o lv e d i n t h e te s ti n g o f t h e e q u i p m e n t, C e n t a c a s t h e s ig n a l p r o v i d e r, D O C a s t h e r a d io fr e q u e n c y s p e c tr u m a n h a r m o n is a ti o n w i t h n e i g h b o u r i n g c o u n t r i e s a s w e ll a s th e P u b li c Aw a r e n e s s C a m p a i g n s they were – they are driving that. USAASA was… C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t is t h e s e c o n d D O C w h a t d o e s i t r e p r e s e n t? T h e r e is t h e f ir s t D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a ti o n s , D O C a n d t h e n t h e r e is a n o th e r D O C ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a it i s D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s . I j u s t … Page 16 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : D e p a r t m e n t o f? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S a m e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : It is j u s t t h e s a m e o n e . CHAIRPERSON: O h w h y is i t d o n e t w i c e ? Is t h e r e a n y p a r tic u la r r e a s o n o r th a t w a s a n e r r o r ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : M a y I a s k w h e r e C h a ir is lo o k i n g ? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O n w h ic h p a g e ? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m l o o k i n g a t p a g e 2 3 . A r e w e o n th e s a m e p a g e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O h y e s C h a ir. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ja on the same page ja . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Oh I see what you mean. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e t h e f ir s t s t a k e h o ld e r i s m e n ti o n e d a s D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in b r a c k e ts D O C . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u g o d o w n th e n t h e r e is a b u ll e t p o i n t a n d another DOC and I was asking whether that refers to Department of C o m m u n i c a t io n s a s w e l l a n d i f s o w h y i t w a s m e n t i o n e d tw ic e o r whether it was an error? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Page 17 of 174 N o , n o M r C h a ir t h e y 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ju s t g o t t h r e e r o l ls i n a t o t a l s c o p e o f w o r k . S o w e u s e d a b b r e v ia t io n s t o e x p la in t h a t r o lls f u r th e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN: N o s o r r y Mr J a n s e n Va n Vu u r e n i s i t n o t b e c a u s e C e n t a c is a ls o p a r t o f g o v e r n m e n t ? Is t h e r e n o t a r e la t io n s h i p between Centac and DOC? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : C u r r e n tl y th e C e n t a c , U S A A S A a n d t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o s t O ffi c e r e p o r t s t o t h e D T P S w h ic h i s n o w D e p a r t m e n t – w h ic h i s n o w t h e n e w d e p a r t m e n t . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n d C e n ta c i s – t h e y a r e r e s p o n s i b le fo r t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f t h e tr a n s m is s i o n a n d t h e network. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : F r o m t h a t s i d e s o t h e y a ls o r e p o r t n o w – s o w e a l t o g e th e r n o w in – a s o n e d e p a r t m e n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a c t u a l ly I s e e t h a t y o u h a v e g o t D O C t h r e e ti m e s s o th e r e i s a n o t h e r o n e l a te r. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . ADV THANDI NORMAN: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. Page 18 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ADV THANDI NORMAN: May I just find out I see that all of the s t a k e h o ld e r s a r e a ll s o r t o f n a t io n a l d e p a r t m e n ts o r n a t io n a l a g e n c i e s . H o w d o e s t h a t a ffe c t t h e n th e r o l lo u t i n p r o v i n c e s b e c a u s e I d o n o t s e e t h a t l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t p l a y s a n y r o l e i n h e r e o r is t h a t n o t r e le v a n t a t a l l? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : I th i n k w h e n I c o m e to t h e – i n t h e p r e s e n ta t io n if y o u a l l o w m e I c a n e x p l a i n i t t h e r e b e c a u s e it is c o m in g u p h o w w e – h o w it is w o r k i n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : A lr i g h t. 10 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : B u t w e d i r e c t ly in v o lv e d w i t h r i g h t t h r o u g h to t h e g r o u n d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : To t h e o u r l o c a l s tr u c t u r e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : A lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s th a n k y o u . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O k a y s o M r C h a ir s o y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t t h e n o n m y fo c u s in th i s p r e s e n t a ti o n i s t h e n o n th e 20 S o u th A fr ic a n P o s t O ffi c e . A n d o u r r o l e t h e r e is t h e lo g is ti c s a n d d is t r i b u t io n o f D T T P a n d th e D T T d e v ic e s . I f w e c a n g o t o s li d e n u m b e r, n u m b e r 2 4 . N o w t h e P o s t O ffi c e r o l e a s d is tr i b u t io n p a r t n e r i s t h a t w e d i s p l a y a n d d is tr ib u ti o n fo r t h e m a r k e t in g m a te r i a l . W e r e c e i v e t h a t fr o m t h e D O C a n d w e d i s t r i b u t e t h a t t o t h e b r a n c h e s o r o u r o u tl e ts . W e a l s o p r o c e s s t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r m s fo r th e s u b s id is e d s e t o f b o x e s Page 19 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 d u r i n g t h e r e g is tr a ti o n p h a s e . W e d o t h e o r d e r i n g a n d t h e w a r e h o u s i n g a n d t h e d is t r i b u t io n o f t h e e q u i p m e n t t o t h e o u tl e ts a n d I a m g o in g t o e x p l a i n t o y o u o n th e n e x t s l i d e h o w i t w o r k s . T h e n t h e p r o c e s s a n d d e li v e r y o f t h e e q u i p m e n t t o th e h o u s e h o l d s . N o w w h e n e a c h a n d e v e r y h o u s e h o l d t h a t w e r e g is t e r w e g iv e a s e q u e n t ia l d is tr i b u ti o n n u m b e r p e r province. If y o u a r e i n E a s te r n C a p e y o u w o u l d – a n d y o u t h e f ir s t p e r s o n th a t r e g i s te r e d t h e r e y o u r u n i q u e r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r o r y o u r d is t r i b u t io n n u m b e r w ill s t a r t w i t h E C 0 0 0 1 s o y o u w i ll b e n u m b e r 1 . S o t h a t is w h a t w e u s e t o tr a c k th e h o u s e h o l d t h r o u g h th e e n d to e n d 10 p r o c e s s a n d th e s y s te m a u t o m a tic a lly c r e a t e th a t u n iq u e r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r. A n d I w i ll ta k e y o u th r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s h o w it h a p p e n s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Then we are also r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e is s u e o f t h e in s u l a t i o n v o u c h e r t o t h e q u a l i fy in g a p p lic a n t. W e a ls o t h e n n o ti fy t h e a s s i g n e d i n s t a ll e r s t o a r r a n g e f o r t h e in s t a ll a ti o n . W e d o t h e v e r i fic a ti o n o f t h e in s t a ll a ti o n v o u c h e r s a n d t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e p r o c e s s t o th e i n s t a l le r s . W e a ls o th e n h a n d le t h e e x c h a n g e a n d th e p la c e m e n t o f a n y f a u l ty e q u i p m e n t a n d w e t h e n a ls o accept in the case where a household have moved away or he cannot 20 b e tr a c e d o r fo u n d b y t h e in s t a ll e r t h e y – w e th e n h a n d l e t h e r e t u r n o f g e t t in g t h a t s t o c k b a c k a n d w e t h e n r e i s s u e i t t o a n e w a p p li c a n t . T h e n w e a ls o d o t h e i n s u r a n c e o f t h e S T P k i ts u p to i n s t a l la t io n l e v e l . If w e c a n g o to s li d e n u m b e r 2 6 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . P a g e 2 6 C h a ir. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : M r C h a ir y o u w o u l d s e e Page 20 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h a t t h e P o s t O ff ic e a s I s a i d w e a r e id e a l ly p o s i t io n e d t o r e n d e r t h i s s e r v ic e . Yo u c a n s e e a l l t h e p la t f o r m s . W e g o t a fi n a n c i a l s y s te m . W e g o t t h e tr a c k in g s y s t e m . W e g o t th e S M S p l a t fo r m w h ic h is a l l e x i s t i n g s y s te m s . Th e o n ly th in g th a t w e h a v e d o n e y o u w il l t h e t h r e e c ir c le s . W e h a v e d e v e l o p e d a S T B d a t a b a s e w h e r e w e r e g is t e r t h e h o u s e h o l d o n a n d w h e r e w e d o th e n a l l h is r e g is tr a ti o n p r o c e s s , h i s q u a l i fic a ti o n , t h e is s u i n g o f t h e s t o c k f o r w h a t h e m u s t q u a li fy f o r a n d t h e in s t a ll a ti o n o f th a t . W e a l s o a c c o m m o d a te d o n t h e S T B s y s t e m o n b e h a lf o f USAASA the DTT installer data base. 10 Now how it work USAASA are r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e i n s t a ll e r s . in s t a l l e r s fr o m U S A A S A . W e g e t th o s e We upload them on the system and we a c ti v a t e th e m . U S A A S A i f f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e i f w e g o t th r e e in s t a ll e r s w e s a y i n s t a l l e r A , i n s t a l le r B , i n s t a l l e r C . U S A A S A t e ll u s w h a t is t h e fr e q u e n c y o f t h a t – o f th e n u m b e r o f k i ts t h a t th a t in s t a ll e r m u s t r e c e i v e . I f U S A A S A s a y t h e y a ll t h r e e r e c e i v e e q u a l ly w e t h e n s e t t h e p e r c e n t a g e o n t h e s y s t e m a n d t h e s y s t e m w i ll t h e n w h e n th e fir s t c u s t o m e r c o m e s w i ll th e n s e l e c t in s ta ll e r 1 a n d h e w i ll s e l e c t th e n w it h t h e n e x t c u s to m e r i n s t a l le r n u m b e r 2 . S o e v e r y t h i n g is – i t i s r e a l t i m e a n d i t i s – i t i s s y s t e m b a s e d t h a t w e m a k e s u r e t h a t i n s ta ll e r s a r e 20 s tr ic tl y th e n m a n a g e d a c c o r d i n g t o t h a t – th a t a l lo c a t io n . C u r r e n tl y U S A A S A t h r o u g h t h e b a n k a ll th e i n s t a l l e r s th e p e r c e n ta g e e a c h o n e r e c e i v e d t h e s a m e q u a n ti ty a n d t h e s y s te m a r e a b l e t o d o th a t . The o th e r a r e a th a t w e h a d to d o s o m e d e v e l o p m e n t i t w a s i n th e fr o n t e n d a n d t h a t is t o c r e a t e a s p e c i fi c fo r a t e ll e r t h e a p p li c a t io n f o r m s o w h e n t h e c u s t o m e r c o m e th a t w e r e g i s t e r h i m o n t h e p o in t o f s a l e . A n d t h e n Page 21 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 y o u w o u ld s e e th e l a s t c ir c l e i s t h e S T B w e b s e r v e r. Th is e n a b le th e c a l l c e n tr e a t a n y p o i n t i n ti m e w h e n t h e y r e c e iv e a c o m p l a in t fr o m a c u s t o m e r o f a n y t h in g t o g o d ir e c tly i n r e a l ti m e to o u r – t o o u r d a ta b a s e . T h e y w i ll t h e n p u t i n th e s e q u e n ti a l t h a t u n i q u e r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r o f t h e c u s to m e r o r h i s I D n u m b e r i f w h a te v e r i t i s r e q u ir e d a n d th e y w i ll t h e n c a n t e l l t h e c li e n t t h a t a n y p o i n t in ti m e w h e r e i s h i s – h is in s t a l l a t i o n p r o c e s s . W h e t h e r h e h a v e r e g is t e r e d i f i t is i n t h a t p h a s e . W h e t h e r i t i s i n t h e d is tr i b u t io n s i d e o r o n t h e – o n t h e i n s t a l la t io n s i d e . H o w e v e r w e h a v e d o n e t h e d e v e l o p m e n t a n d d o n e b u t b e c a u s e o f th e 10 c h a l le n g e s c u r r e n t ly w i th t h e c a ll c e n tr e a n d it is m a i n l y – i t i s f u n d i n g is s u e s w e w a i t in g f o r th e c a ll c e n t r e to g e t a u t o m a t e d to g e t th a t li n k d ir e c t ly. Fr o m o u r s id e w e c u r r e n t ly o n a l l th e e n q u ir ie s w e r e c e iv e w e d o i t c u r r e n tl y m a n u a l ly. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h e w h o le - th e w h o l e s y s te m c a n a t a n y p o i n t a n d t i m e i f th e D O C o r t h e M i n is t e r w h o e v e r r e q u ir e s f o r u s w h a t h a s b e e n r e g is t e r e d i n w h a t p r o v i n c e , i n w h a t t o w n , i n w h a t l o c a l m u n ic ip a li ty in w h a t d is t r ic t m u n i c i p a l it y. With a p r e s s o f a b u t t o n w e - w e h a v e th a t in f o r m a ti o n a v a i la b l e a n d I a m 20 g o i n g t o e x p la i n t o y o u w h a t is a ll t h a t in f o r ma t io n . T h e s a m e t h i n g a p p l i e d w i th t h e is s u i n g o f a k it . With the p r e s s o f a b u t t o n i f I h a v e t h e u n i q u e r e fe r e n c e n u m b e r o f t h e c u s t o m e r I c a n t e l l y o u w h e n w a s h is - h i s s t o c k i s s u e d , w h a t w e r e t h e s e r i a l n u m b e r s th a t w e r e is s u e d t o h i m , w h e n w a s it i n s t a l le d a n d / o r w h e t h e r it is n o t i n s ta ll e d . A ll th a t in f o r m a t io n in i n te ll ig e n c e is a v a i l a b le i n t h e Page 22 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 s y s te m o f t h e - o f t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o s t O ffi c e . S o y o u c a n s e e t h e - th e s o p h is ti c a t io n o f t h e s y s te m t h a t t h e P o s t O ff ic e h a s b u il t h e r e a n d it is a l l f o r t h e G o v e r n m e n t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : e n d o f t h e d a y t h e p l a tf o r m is i n p l a c e . From our side at the W h a t e v e r o th e r s e r v ic e s w e n e e d w e c a n g iv e t h a t c o n f id e n c e t o th e G o v e r n m e n t t h a t it w o r k s a n d i t is t h e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN 10 SC: Ye s and can I p le a s e M r J a n s e n Va n Vu u r e n c a n I ta k e y o u t o p a g e 9 2 ? W h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t r e g is tr a ti o n a r e th e s e t h e f o r m s t h a t t h e h o u s e h o l d s w o u l d h a v e t o c o m p le t e … M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : H m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e f o r e t h e y g e t r e g i s te r e d ? P a g e 9 2 . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : 9 0 - 9 2 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J a . It w i ll b e u n d e r fo l d e r m a r k e d C . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . 1 0 0 p e r c e n t . I f w e g o t o t h a t f o r m M r C h a ir y o u w o u l d s e e o n p a g e 9 2 … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : form we have designed. T h a t is t h e a p p li c a t io n S o y o u w o u l d s e e th e r e is - is th e p e r s o n a l d e t a i l o f t h e a p p l ic a n t . H is r e s i d e n ti a l a d d r e s s . A l l h is - h i s a d d r e s s w h e r e - w h e r e h e s ta y s a n d th e n w h a t i s t h e to t a l n u m b e r o f h o u s e h o l d s i n - i n t h e f a m il y a n d t h e n w e a l s o a g a in w i t h t h e - t h e c a p tu r i n g o f t h i s a n d I a m c o m i n g t o t h a t - th a t s l i d e w e p r o c e s s t h e n Page 23 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m h e r e . Yo u w o u l d s e e t h e b o tt o m p a r t - P a r t 2 o f t h a t f o r m in th e fr o n t t h a t i s a ll th e th i n g s t h a t is b u il t i n th e s y s t e m t o h e l p th e te ll e r t o m a k e s u r e t h a t h e d o e s a q u a li ty c h e c k o n t h e a p p li c a t io n f o r m w h e n i t is c a p tu r e d . I j u s t w a n t t o - i f w e g o t o t h e - t h e s e c o n d p a g e , p a g e 9 3 o f t h a t a p p li c a t io n fo r m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : It s h o w s w e h a v e g i v e n t h e r e h o w t h e p e r s o n w h o - w h o q u a l if i e s f o r it . S o w e - w e a r e s t a ti n g 10 t h e r e t h a t h e m u s t b e - h e m u s t b e a n o w n e r o f a - o f a fu n c t io n a l T V s e t . H e m u s t b e a S o u t h A fr ic a n c i ti z e n . T h e h o u s e h o l d th a t i s - t h a t is a lr e a d y c o v e r e d b y th e - t h e S A B C ’s c o n c e s s i o n a r y T V l ic e n c e t h e y q u a li fy b y d e f a u l t . A s w e ll a s a ll y o u r - y o u r p e o p l e - y o u r S A S S A g r a n ts a n d r e c ip i e n ts . T h e y q u a l i fy b y d e f a u l t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Th e n t h e - t h e o t h e r r e q u ir e m e n t is t h a t t h e h o u s e h o ld m u s t - m u s t h a v e a t o ta l h o u s e h o l d in c o m e o f 3 2 0 0 o r l e s s . I c a n ju s t a s k t h a t w e c a n g o - i f y o u h a p p y 20 w i t h t h is j u s t g o b a c k t o t h e o n e … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : To t h e s e c o n d p a g e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Page 27. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : On th e - on page n u m b e r 2 0 - 2 7 C h a ir y o u w o u ld s e e th a t i s t h e - t h e l o g is t ic s y s te m Page 24 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h a t t h e p o s t o ffi c e h a v e - h a v e p u t i n p la c e f o r t h e p r o j e c t a n d y o u w o u ld s e e th a t w e h a v e e s ta b lis h e d o r s e t u p 1 4 w a r e h o u s e s n a ti o n a ll y. T h a t w a r e h o u s e s i s t h a t i f t h e p e r s o n is i n U p i n g t o n w e h a v e a w a r e h o u s e in U p i n g t o n . S o t h a t w e h a v e t h e s t o c k a s q u ic k l y a s f a s t a s p o s s i b l e a t that - at that warehouse. Now what happened, as I have explained e a r l ie r o n ? W e h a v e c r e a t e d f o u r p r o d u c t c o d e s f o r e a c h o f th e i t e ms . W e h a v e c r e a t e d - w e w il l c r e a te t h e o r d e r. T h a t o r d e r w il l g o t o U S A A S A . U S A A S A w il l p l a c e t h a t o r d e r w i t h t h e s u p p l i e r. W e w i ll s a y w e n e e d t h o u s a n d D D T. 10 We do not mention a s u p p li e r. U S A A S A w i ll s e le c t a s u p p li e r w h o t h e y h a v e a p p o i n te d a n d t h e y w i ll p r o v i d e t h e - t h e t h o u s a n d o n e s . T h e n th e - w e w i ll r e c e i v e w i t h th e e q u i p m e n t a t a x f il e . N o w t h e t a x f il e if w e o r d e r a t h o u s a n d le t u s s a y D D T f r o m - fr o m c o m p a n y A . T h e y w i ll g i v e u s a n e le c t r o n ic t a x f il e h a v i n g a l l t h e s e r i a l n u m b e r s in s i d e t h e r e t h r e e d a y s b e fo r e th e ti m e . T h a t s e r i a l n u m b e r s h a s t o g o in t o o u r f i n a n c i a l s y s te m a n d w e t h e n r e c e iv e th e s t o c k . W e c o m p a r e i t w i th t h a t a n d t h e n w e t h e n a c ti v a t e t h a t s t o c k o n th e - o n t h e fi n a n c ia l s y s t e m . 20 Yo u w o u l d a l s o s e e t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d . Th e n t h e r e a f te r t h e p o s t o ff ic e b r a n c h e s t h e n p l a c e a n o r d e r w h ic h i s h a p p e n i n g c e n tr a lly a n d t h e n e a r e s t a n d th a t w a r e h o u s e d e l iv e r s t h e n th e s t o c k t o t h e b r a n c h e s i n p la c e . T h e s a m e - th e s a m e p r o c e s s h a p p e n s in t h e c a s e w h e r e stock is exchanged. R e v e r s e d l o g is ti c s h a p p e n . As the stock has c o m e d o w n t h e s to c k w o u ld - th e s t o c k w ill g o b a c k . O n t h e - o n t h e Page 25 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 g r a p h i ts e lf y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t U S A A S A i s r i g h t o n to p . Th e - t h e S A B s u p p li e r s t h e f o u r is o n th e l e f t a n d t h e t w o a n t e n n a a n d t h e s u p p l i e r s o n t h e r ig h t a n d t h e y b r in g th e s t o c k th a t w e o r d e r e d t h e n t o t h e - t h e w a r e h o u s e s t h a t w e h a v e g o t a n d fr o m t h e r e w e t a k e i t t o th e b r a n c h e s . M r C h a ir i f w e c a n g o to t h e n e x t s li d e . I th in k th is i s th e t h e o n e t h a t I w a n t to e x p l a i n t o y o u h o w t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s w o r k s a t t h e p o s t o ff ic e i ts e lf . W e h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r m . Yo u h a v e s e e n t h e f o r m . N o w w h a t w il l h a p p e n is t h a t th e - t h e a p p l ic a n t h a s t o b r i n g t h e fo r m i n . 10 H e h a s to b r i n g h is p r o o f o f I D . H is household income. H e h a s - h e m u s t h a v e p r o o f th a t h e h a s a f u n c ti o n a l T V a n d h is - h is r e s i d e n t i a l a d d r e s s . W e t h e n c a p t u r e t h a t o n th e s y s te m a t t h e fr o n t e n d . W i t h in - if t h e t e l le r i s - is tr a in e d a n d h e i s a t e ll e r t h e r e fo r a fe w y e a r s h e w il l fi n a l is e t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n b e t w e e n tw o a n d t h r e e m i n u t e s . W e t h e n is s u e h i m th e c u s t o m e r t h e - t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t is c a p tu r e d o n th e s y s t e m ta lk i m m e d i a t e ly t o t h e - t h e D D T d a t a b a s e a n d w i t h i n s e c o n d s w e t e l l th e p e r s o n h e h a s q u a li fi e d o r n o t a n d w e p r i n ti n g t h e r e c e i p t. I n t h e c a s e i f t h e p e r s o n h a s a fo r e ig n I D t h e s y s t e m p i c k s i t 20 i m m e d i a t e ly u p a n d i t w il l p r i n t a r e c e i p t a n d s a y t h is p e r s o n d o e s n o t q u a li fy. It i s a fo r e ig n I D a n d y o u w i ll g iv e h i m t h e r e a s o n c o d e a n d h e c a n t a k e th a t p r o c e s s t h e n fu r t h e r t o t h e c a l l c e n t r e . O n a ll t h e r e c e i p ts t h e r e is a - t h e - t h e c a l l c e n tr e n u m b e r i s t h e r e a n d t h e y a d d r e s s t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: A n d p a r t o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t fo r q u a l i fy i n g is y o u r - Page 26 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 your level of income. Is that right? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Yo u r - ja . I t i s y o u r - i f you have - if you do not - if you earn more than 3 200 … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Yo u w il l - t h e s y s t e m w i ll t e ll y o u d o n o t q u a li fy a n d w i ll in d ic a t e th a t a s t h e r e a s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u h a v e t o e a r n n o - n o t m o r e th a n 3 0 0 0 … M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : 2 0 0 . CHAIRPERSON: 200? 10 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : As a h o u s e h o ld . CHAIRPERSON: As a - as a household? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : As a h o u s e h o ld y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o t j u s t a n i n d iv i d u a l ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : N o a s a h o u s e h o l d a n d - and … CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e h o u s e h o l d w o u l d - w o u l d i n c lu d e w o r k i n g children as a matter of interest? 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : It c o u l d b e . C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d i n c l u d e w o r k in g c h i l d r e n ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s . T h e C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . W e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 27 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : We ta k e th e total in c o m e . I f t h e h o u s e h o l d i n d ic a te s - t h e r e is a n a ffi d a v it f o r m - th e y d o not - do not have no income. T h e y j u s t c o m p l e te th e - t h e a ffi d a v i t f o r m i f t h e r e is n o p r o o f b e c a u s e w h e n y o u g iv e p r o o f e i t h e r y o u h a v e a b a n k s t a t e m e n t b u t t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e h a v e h e r e is th e p o o r e s t o f t h e p o o r. T h e y d o n o t h a v e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n y a c c o u n ts a n y th i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : S o w e m a d e i t e a s y f o r them and flexible the system … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : To a c c o m m o d a te t h e m a s fa r a s p o s s ib l e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o i f t h e r e a r e s ix o f y o u a n d e a c h o n e y o u e a r n s f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e R 1 0 0 0 e a c h . T h e n y o u d o n o t q u a li fy ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Yo u w i ll n o t q u a l i fy b e c a u s e i t is - th e y - t h e y t a k e th e c o m b in e d h o u s e h o l d i n c o m e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t if - i f I g o a n d l iv e a l o n e a n d I e a r n R 1 0 0 0 t h e n I - I q u a l i fy ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . CHAIRPERSON: S o I c a n m a k e m y s e l f q u a li fy b y g e t ti n g o u t o f t h e Page 28 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 h o u s e h o l d a n d t a k in g m y o w n h o u s e h o ld . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Well that - that can happen. Ja, ja. That can happen. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y I j u s t a s k a b o u t th e r e s id e n ti a l a d d r e s s ? I n - i n t h e h o u s e h o ld s t h a t a r e i n i n fo r m a l s e t tl e m e n ts w h e r e t h e r e i s n o s tr e e t n u m b e r. 10 T h e r e is n o h o m e n u m b e r. H o w d o y o u d e a l w i t h t h o s e c a s e ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : W e - w e u s e - a g a i n w e - w e a r e v e r y f l e x i b le o n t h a t . Ei t h e r a l e t t e r fr o m - fr o m t h e l a n d l o r d if t h e r e is a l a n d l o r d o r a n a ffi d a v i t o r i n t h e c a s e h e c a n i f h e h a s - if h e h a s a n y p r o o f o f a d d r e s s a n y p r o o f w h a t e v e r i t is t h a t h e g o t a n y - a n y d o c u m e n t a ti o n f o r th a t - th a t s h o w s t h a t. W e u s e t h a t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And … M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : S o … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h s o r r y. S o r r y a b o u t th a t ; a n d t h e n o n c e t h e p o s t o ffic e s a y s y o u d o n o t q u a li f y. T h a t is t h e e n d o f t h e m a tt e r. 20 T h e r e is n o a p p e a l p r o c e s s o r a n y t h i n g . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : What we - what we do is o n e a c h a n d e v e r y - t h e a r e a s t h a t - t h a t i s c u r r e n t ly t h a t w e id e n t i fi e d o r b u il t i n t o t h e s y s t e m fo r n o n - f o r n o n - q u a l i fy i n g is a foreign ID. Yo u e x c e e d t h e i n c o m e . g iv e u s a n y p r o o f o f a d d r e s s . Yo u d o n o t h a v e a - y o u d o n o t W e h e l p y o u t h e n b u t a t t h a t p o i n t in Page 29 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ti m e w e h a v e to g i v e h i m a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a s to g o a n d c o m p l e te . A t t h a t p o in t i n ti m e it w i ll s a y n o p r o o f b u t - o r h e h a s n o t g o t th e p r o o f o f a f u n c ti o n a l T V. S o t h e p e r s o n c a n a lw a y s g o b a c k . S o w e g iv e h i m a r e c e i p t a n d w e t e l l h i m y o u h a v e t o o b t a in th is a n d h e w i ll c o m e b a c k a n d w e w i ll t h e n r e r e g is t e r h i m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H m . Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Yo u may proceed. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O k a y. What w i ll h a p p e n t h e n M r C h a ir a n d t h a t i s w h e r e y o u - t h e f a c il i ta t o r h a d a s k e d 10 m e e a r l i e r o n h o w d o w e k n o w w h ic h ty p e t h e p e r s o n i s q u a l i fy i n g fo r. O n c e th e t e ll e r c a p t u r e s th e r e s id e n t i a l a d d r e s s o f t h a t p e r s o n . The s y s te m t a l k s i m m e d ia t e l y t o S E N T E C H . L i k e y o u - th e s a m e y o u b u y i n g a ir t i m e th e s a m e c o m m u n ic a ti o n . W i th in tw o s e c o n d s S E N T E C H s e n d s u s a m e s s a g e b a c k a n d s a y s t h a t t h i s p e r s o n ’s a d d r e s s h e q u a l i fi e s f o r a D D T a n t e n n a . W h a t h e q u a li f ie s f o r a D D T D e c o d e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : We print that then on t h e r e g is tr a ti o n r e c e ip t a n d a ls o w h a t w e t h e n - is th e d iv is i o n n u m b e r 20 o f t h a t is o n th e r e c e ip t a n d i f y o u c a n g o t o a n n e x u r e n u m b e r D t h a t is on page number - Annexure D. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a t w i l l b e p a g e 9 5 C h a ir. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : 9 5 , j a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Page 30 of 174 M r C h a ir s o y o u w o u l d 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 s e e t h a t i s t h e r e g is tr a ti o n r e c e ip t t h a t t h e p e r s o n r e c e iv e s . I h a v e ju s t h i g h l ig h te d f o r y o u t h e g r e e n p a r t o n to p . T h a t s a y s i t i s a r e g i s t r a t io n receipt. N o w th e r e y o u c a n s e e h is ID n u m b e r is t h e r e . H is ti t le i s there. How many households is there. Where does he stay and most important the - the second one in green shows the SAB type that he q u a li fi e s f o r. I n th is c a s e t h e p e r s o n q u a li f ie d f o r D D T a n d r e m e m b e r t h e t h e n e tw o r k o f S E N T E C H 8 4 p e r c e n t is D D T a n d 1 6 p e r c e n t t h e y a r e s e e i n g a s - a s s a t e l li t e . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : S o in t h is c a s e th e p e r s o n q u a li f ie d f o r a S A B t y p e a n d y o u w i ll s e e a t t h e l a s t - t h e l a s t o n e t h e r e is t h e d i s t r i b u t io n n u m b e r. S o t h is p e r s o n h a s r e g is t e r e d i n Gauteng and he was number 773 that registered. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E VA N V U U R E N : So th is receipt is i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r w e c a p t u r e d h is f o r m . H e g e ts a r e c e i p t a n d h e te lls m e h e q u a li f ie d . N o w i f w e g o b a c k t o ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d is t h e r e - s o r r y, b e f o r e y o u m o v e o n . 20 Is t h e r e a m o n t h l y p a y m e n t th a t th is p e r s o n w il l h a v e to p a y ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : N o . It is a l l f o r fr e e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A ll f o r f r e e ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Page 31 of 174 Remember as I 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 e x p l a i n e d e a r ly o n c u r r e n tly w h e n y o u g o w i t h D S T V o r M - N e t t h e r e is a s u b s c r i p ti o n f e e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : W i th E . T V t h e r e i s n o s u b s c r i p ti o n b u t t h e r e is a - a o n c e o ff fe e th a t y o u h a v e t o p u r c h a s e t h e e q u ip m e n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : W it h th is system e v e r y t h i n g is f o r f r e e . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u . Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Ye s . Yo u may move on. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : W e c a n g o t o - b a c k t o - t o t h a t s l id e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t w il l b e p a g e 2 9 . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a t is w h e r e y o u a r e d e a li n g n o w ( in t e r v e n e s ) . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : P a g e - p a g e 2 8 , j a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 8 ? Ye s . 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : P a g e 2 8 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . Ye s , t h a n k y o u . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : a r o u n d b u t I h a v e - I h a v e ( i n te r v e n e s ) . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine, ja. Page 32 of 174 I am sorry that I jump 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Huh-uh. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : M r C h a ir y o u w il l t h e n s e e th a t w h e n t h e p e r s o n h a s r e g i s te r e d w e th e n - t h e s t o c k i s - is d e li v e r e d . S o s t e p n u m b e r t w o is w h e n t h e s t o c k i s d e li v e r e d b y t h e s u p p li e r a s I e x p l a in e d e a r l ie r o n a n d w e t a k e it th e n t o t h e p o s t o ff ic e a n d th e p o s t o ff ic e w a r e h o u s e is th e n n u m b e r 3 s e n d s th e n a t r u c k a n d w e d e l iv e r i t a t t h e b r a n c h . N o w w h e n t h e e q u i p m e n t a r r iv e s a t th e b r a n c h t h e s y s te m w e in f o r m t h e c u s to m e r v i a S M S t h a t y o u r e q u i p m e n t is h e r e . Yo u c a n 10 c o m e a n d c o ll e c t a n d w e s e n d a n S M S . S o w h e n t h e c u s t o m e r c o m e s t o th e - t h e p o s t o ffic e a l l t h a t y o u h a v e t o d o i s y o u h a v e t o g i v e u s h is r e g is tr a ti o n r e c e i p t . I f h e h a s l o s t it w e o n ly n e e d h is I D n u m b e r. W e go on the system. W e v e r i fy - t h e s c r e e n w i ll b r in g u p - t h e p e r s o n h a s r e g is t e r e d . W e v e r i fy w it h h i s I D a n d w e t h e n s e e h e q u a li f ie s f o r D D T a n d t h e te ll e r w il l g o a n d s e l e c t a d e c o d e r - th a t o n e a n d a n a n t e n n a . N o w a ll t h e e q u ip m e n t t h a t t h e p o s t o ffic e r e c e i v e d is s e a le d . W e d o n o t o p e n a n y e q u i p m e n t . I t is li k e t h e s a m e w h e n y o u g o to M a k r o o r w h e r e v e r y o u g o a n d y o u b u y y o u r D S T V o r t h a t y o u r e c e iv e i t s e a l e d . 20 S o w e h a v e - e v e r y t h i n g is s e a l e d a n d a l l th e e q u i p m e n t is w h a t is s u p p o s e d t o b e t h e r e fo r t h e - f o r t h e g u y t o r e c e i v e t h e s ig n a l a n d f o r t h e in s t a ll e r t o d o i t s u c c e s s f u lly i s i n s id e t h i s e q u ip m e n t . W e t h e n is s u e i t a n d y o u - i f y o u c a n g o to p a g e n u m b e r - s li d e n u m b e r ag, Annexure number E. Excuse me. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 33 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n n e x u r e n u m b e r E , ja . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t w il l b e o n p a g e 9 6 C h a ir. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : It is 9 0 , j a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h e n i t is - 9 6 is t h e d i v i d e r. It is a c t u a ll y 9 7 , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : N o w M r C h a ir i n th is c a s e r e m e m b e r n o w w e h a v e i s s u e d h i m a r e g is tr a ti o n r e c e i p t . N o w w e is s u e h i m t h e e q u i p m e n t. N o w y o u w o u ld s e e a g a in h is ID n u m b e r. H is 10 name appears. His ID number appears. H is d is tr i b u ti o n n u m b e r a p p e a r s a n d f o r th e f ir s t ti m e w e s h o w t h e s e r i a l n u m b e r o f th e e q u ip m e n t th a t h e h a s r e c e iv e d . W e t h e n a l s o s h o w t h a t h i s - th a t t h is o n e i s - i n - in t h i s c a s e it is a ls o h is w a r r a n t e e a n d i f y o u l o o k r i g h t o n t h e t o p 1 6 A p r il is m a r k e d th e r e i n g r e e n o n t h e r e c e ip t . S o h is w a r r a n te e i s t h e n tw o y e a r s fr o m t h e d a t e o f is s u e o f t h is r e c e i p t. S o t h is is th e r e c e ip t h e m u s t k e e p a s a w a r r a n t e e . If a n y o f t h e e q u i p m e n t b e c o m e s - b e c o m e s f a u l ty. W e t h e n a t t h e s a m e t i m e w h e n w e i s s u e w h e n th e t e l le r 20 p r i n ts t h e s y s t e m t o p r i n t t h e r e c e ip t t h e s y s t e m s e n t a S M S d i r e c tly t o t h e in s t a ll e r i n f o r m - g iv e h i m t h e d e t a il o f th e c u s t o m e r t o c o n t a c t th e c u s t o m e r to - t o a r r a n g e f o r t h e in s t a ll a ti o n . A t t h e s a m e ti m e y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e t h e i n s t a l le r ’s n a m e is p r in t e d o n t h e r e c e i p t - is t h e r e t h e n a m e o f th e i n s t a l l a t i o n c o m p a n y. T h i s i n t h is c a s e i s D u r b a n Q u ic k I n s t a l l e r s a n d w e a ls o i n Page 34 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h e c a s e o f a D D T a n te n n a S E N T E C H h a v e g iv e n u s th e d ir e c ti o n t h e antenna must be installed. S o a n i n s t a l l e r i s a ls o w h e n h e r e c e iv e d t h is a n d h e m a d e c o n ta c t w i t h t h e c u s t o m e r h e k n o w s w h a t i s t h e - t h e d ir e c t io n o f t h e a n te n n a a n d h e h a s h is n a m e … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A n d w e is s u e th a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : W i th t h is w e a ls o is s u e t h e - t h e c u s t o m e r w it h a n in s ta ll a ti o n v o u c h e r. 10 N o w th e i n s t a l la t io n v o u c h e r i f y o u ju s t a s a - a s A n n e x u r e G . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h a t w il l b e a t p a g e 1 0 2 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : N o w Mr C h a ir in - i n t h is c a s e y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t w h e n w e i s s u e d t h e i n s t a l l a ti o n v o u c h e r t h e r e is n o - t h e fo r m is b l a n k a s i t is h e r e . O n ly a t th e b o tt o m if y o u if y o u lo o k r i g h t a t th e b o t t o m o f th e - o f t h e p a g e t h e r e s t a n d s p a c k la b e l f o r p o s t o ffi c e u s e o n ly. W h e n w e is s u e t h e - th e i s s u e r e c e i p t i t p r i n ts a - a b a r c o d e l a b e l . T h a t b a r c o d e la b e l c o n t a in s a l l t h e i n te ll ig e n c e o f t h e 20 c u s t o m e r. W e p r i n t th a t . W e p u t t h a t b a r c o d e t h e r e a n d y o u w i ll - y o u w i ll s e e n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e . S o w h a t w il l h a p p e n th e n is th e in s t a l l e r w i ll c o n ta c t t h e c u s t o m e r. T h e c u s t o m e r t h e r e t h e y w e r e a ll h a p p y. T h e c u s to m e r th e n h a s t o c o m p l e te P a r t 1 o f t h e - o f t h e in s t a l l a t i o n v o u c h e r a n d t h e in s ta ll e r h a s t o - a n d h e h a s t o c o n f ir m t h a t t h e s y s t e m h a s b e e n s u c c e s s f u ll y c o n n e c t e d a n d h e s i g n s i t o ff. Page 35 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 T h e s a m e d e c la r a ti o n m u s t b e - m u s t b e g i v e n b y t h e - b y t h e in s t a l l e r a n d h e s i g n s i t o ff . W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n is t h e i n s ta ll e r w il l b r i n g th is f o r m t o th e n e a r e s t p o s t o ff ic e . W h a t w e th e n d o is - w e - th e t e ll e r g o e s th r o u g h th a t P a r t 4 a n d h e c h e c k s e v e r y t h i n g is r i g h t. He c h e c k s th a t t h e f o r m h a s b e e n c o m p le t e d c o r r e c t ly b y t h e - b y t h e c u s t o m e r a n d t h e c u s t o m e r is h a p p y th a t t h e s e r v i c e is s u c c e s s f u l. T h e - th e in s t a ll e r - t h a t t h e i n s t a l l e r a l s o h a s s ig n e d a n d w h e n h e t h e n - w h e n h e h a s c h e c k e d t h a t t h e f o r m is 1 0 0 p e r c e n t correct he then scans that barcode at the bottom. That barcode opened 10 f o r h i m o n t h e s c r e e n th e f u ll d e t a il o f t h e c u s to m e r a n d t h e a s s i g n e d in s t a l l e r a n d t h a t t w o h a s t o c o m p a r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Huh-uh. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : If it does not compare w e is s u e h i m th e n a r e c e i p t t h a t t e l ls h i m e i th e r t h is h a s a lr e a d y b e e n in s t a l l e d o r i t is t h e w r o n g i n s t a l le r o r th e w r o n g - o r t h e w r o n g - t h e w r o n g c u s t o m e r. S o a l l th e c o n tr o ls a r e i n p l a c e i f th e p e o p l e f o l lo w e d the correct process. Yo u w o u l d s e e o n - o n A n n e x u r e H w h a t w il l happen then is … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is p a g e 1 0 5 C h a ir. 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : W e i s s u e t h a t r e c e ip t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : To the in s ta ll e r in d i c a t in g t o h i m t h a t t h e i n s t a l la t io n w a s s u c c e s s fu l a n d h e - w h a t w il l h a p p e n t h e n i s w i t h i n 7 2 h o u r s h e i s - h e g e ts t h e n a n E F T p a y m e n t Page 36 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 in t o h is b a n k a c c o u n t a n d w e s e n d h i m a l s o a p a y m e n t a d v ic e a s c o n fir m a t io n o f t h e p a y m e n t th a t h a s h a p p e n e d v i a e m a il . So you w o u ld s e e f r o m t h e r e g is tr a ti o n t o t h e i n s t a l la t io n p r o c e s s a l l o u r p r o c e d u r e s a r e t h e r e a n d a g a i n M r C h a i r a l l o f t h is i n fo r m a ti o n i s w i t h t h e p r e s s o f a b u t t o n . I t is a v a i l a b le . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : W e k n o w w h a t i t is . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : 10 Then if we can just go b a c k t o t h a t o r i g i n a l s l i d e . I t h i n k w e a r e n e a r ly f in is h e d . I f g o to i t e m n u m b e r n i n e o n t h a t s l i d e . Yo u w o u ld s e e t h a t in th e c a s e - n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d is … CHAIRPERSON: Are we back on - on page - page 28 or …? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : P a g e - p a g e 2 8 . CHAIRPERSON: 28? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s , y e s C h a ir. I a m a t - at bullet point number nine. 20 I n th e c a s e t h e i n s t a l le r a r r iv e d a t t h e p e r s o n ’s h o u s e a n d h e o p e n s th e e q u i p m e n t w i th th e c u s t o m e r a n d h e s e e s t h a t t h e r e m o t e is n o t th e r e o r a n y t h i n g is w r o n g . They then c o n ta c t th e c a l l c e n tr e o r th e y d o n o t g e t a n y s i g n a l . L e t u s s a y h e h a s b e e n is s u e d w i th D D T b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r i f t h e p e r s o n s t a y s b e h in d a m o u n t a in o r a n y o b s t a c l e a n d th e r e is in t e r fe r e n c e w i th t h e - fr o m t h e t o w e r t o h is h o u s e . Page 37 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 T h a t m e a n s h e h a s - w e h a v e t o c o n v e r t t h a t c u s to m e r t h e n t o a D TH . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Huh-uh. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : S o w h a t w i ll h a p p e n is t h e p r o c e s s is e i t h e r t h e c u s t o m e r o r t h e in s t a ll e r c o n ta c ts t h e c a l l c e n tr e . Th e c a ll c e n tr e i s s u e s t h e m w i th a n a u t h o r it y n u m b e r a f te r th e y e s t a b li s h e d w h a t th e e r r o r is a n d t h e y w i ll a ls o c a p t u r e w h a t i s t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e e r r o r. L e t u s s a y i n - i n t h is c a s e it is a w r o n g S A B t y p e . It should have been a DTH. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h e y g iv e t h e a u t h o r i ty n u m b e r t h e n t o th e c u s to m e r a n d in s ta ll e r a n d t h a t p e r s o n b r i n g s th e e q u ip m e n t b a c k to th e p o s t o ffi c e . W e h a v e a l s o r e c e iv e d t h e n fr o m t h e c a l l c e n tr e th e a u th o r i ty n u m b e r. T h e te ll e r w il l fi r s t v e r i fy t h e e q u ip m e n t . H a v e w e is s u e d t h a t e q u ip m e n t ? I t b e l o n g s to u s a n d b y j u s t m e r e ly s c a n n in g t h e - th e s e r i a l n u m b e r s o f t h e e q u ip m e n t a n d t h e n w h a t w il l a l s o h a p p e n t h e n i s h e w i ll v e r i fy t h e c u s t o m e r t h a t it i s th e c u s t o m e r a n d th e i n s ta ll e r w h o who has been assigned. 20 I f t h a t i s a l l o k a y h e ta k e s t h e n th e o t h e r a u t h o r i ty n u m b e r a n d h e m a t c h e s t h e t w o a n d w e th e n e x c h a n g e t h e e q u ip m e n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h e l a s t o n e o n th a t - o n t h a t s li d e is t h e r e t u r n o f u n i n s t a l le d k i t . I n t h a t c a s e w h a t h a p p e n s t h e r e i s if t h e - i f th e i n s t a l le r h a s g o n e o u t a n d h e c a n n o t tr a c e t h e Page 38 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 c u s t o m e r o r t h e c u s t o m e r h a s p a s s e d a w a y o r w h a te v e r. T h e n th a t e q u ip m e n t is r e t u r n e d b a c k - b a c k to t h e - th e p o s t o ffic e . I j u s t w a n t t o e x p l a i n c u r r e n t ly d u e to t h e - t h e s i z e o f t h e - o f th e s a t e ll it e b e c a u s e i t is - i t i s t h e b ig g e s t o n e y o u g e t . I t is a b o u t th a t s i z e ( a s t h e w it n e s s in d ic a t e s ) a n d a ls o t o f a s t tr a c k t h e - t h e is s u i n g p r o c e s s . W e h a v e a ls o i m p le m e n t e d a b u lk i s s u e p r o c e s s w h e r e w e is s u e t h e s t o c k n o t to t h e c u s t o m e r b u t d ir e c tl y to t h e i n s ta ll e r i n b u lk . Th e i n s ta ll e r c o m e s t o t h e - th e p o s t o ffi c e . W e is s u e i t . H e g e ts a n S M S t h a t h e m u s t c o m e a n d f e tc h t h e s t o c k . L e t 10 u s s a y w e h a v e g iv e n h i m f iv e s e ts . W e w i ll t h e n p r o c e s s a p r o o f o f - o f d e liv e r y a n d i f y o u g o t o t h e p r o o f o f d e liv e r y. It i s A n n e x u r e F. W e c a n ju s t g o t o A n n e x u r e F b e c a u s e I t h in k l a te r o n i t w il l b e c r i tic a l. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : C o m e t o t h a t o n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: At page 99. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: We - we do not have to go through all that but you just … 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Wa n t t o d e m o n s t r a t e w h a t h e g e ts recorded? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . S o … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n A n n e x u r e F. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Page 39 of 174 S o th a t i s t h e p r o o f o f 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 d e li v e r y th a t w e - th a t w e g iv e th e in s ta ll e r. S o M r C h a ir y o u c a n s e e a l l th e - t h e d e t a i l t h a t a p p e a r s o f t h a t c u s t o m e r. W e k n o w i t is e x a c t ly. H e w i ll t h e n o n t h e r i g h t h a n d - h e w il l v e r if y t h a t t h a t h e h a s r e c e iv e d t h a t s e r i a l n u m b e r s a n d t h e n o n t h e l a s t p a g e h e th e n s i g n s i t o ff a n d t h a t is t h e p r o o f th a t w e t h e n a ls o g iv e t o t h e p o s t o ff ic e a n d t h e p r o o f o f t h e s to c k th a t w e h a v e is s u e d t o h i m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h a t is o n th e - o n th e - I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e is a n y - a n y q u e s t io n s o n - o n t h a t s l id e 10 b u t t h a t i s t h e to t a l p r o c e s s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : H o w i t w o r k s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n - th e n - y o u th e n d e a l - s o r r y. I th in k w e h a v e c o v e r e d r i g h t u p t o p a g e s - p a g e 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t . A m I r i g h t? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Maybe we - we do not have because the in t e r e s t w a s o n s h o w i n g h o w i t w o r k s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W e d o n o t h a v e t o g o th r o u g h a l l t h e s li d e s b u t y o u c a n q u i c k ly j u s t it e m is e w i t h o u t r e a ll y g iv in g t o d e t a i ls . T h e C h a ir h a s r e a d y o u r s t a t e m e n t . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O k a y. Page 40 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A s t o t h e c h a ll e n g e s . Just pointing out t h e m a in c h a l l e n g e s th a t - th a t y o u h a v e n o te d . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O k a y. S o w e a r e g o in g s k i p th e - t h e n u m b e r o f s t o c k th a t w e h a v e i s s u e d a n d e v e r y t h in g a t t h is p o i n t i n t i m e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t - t h a t n o , n o . I th in k w e - D r M u t u v h i h a s g iv e n t h o s e d e ta il s … M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O k a y. T h a t is fi n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s … 10 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d h e a l s o g iv e n d e t a i ls o f h o w m u c h h a s b e e n i n s t a l le d s o fa r a n d h o w m u c h is s ti ll o u t s t a n d i n g . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : G r e a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n c h a ll e n g e s n o te d - i f y o u g o b a c k to p a g e 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . Yo u c o u l d ju s t d e a l w i th t h o s e m a t t e r s b r i e fl y. T h o s e t h a t y o u - y o u r e g a r d a s k e y. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : O k a y. Th e c h a l l e n g e s t h a t w e - i f w e - i f w e c a n g o to p a g e 4 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : h a d is t h e - is o n t h e p r o g r a m s i d e . T h e f ir s t o n e th a t w e I t h in k th e is s u e M r C h a i r i f y o u c a n s e e w h e r e w e h a v e s t a r te d f o r - w e h a v e p l a n n e d f o r t h r e e y e a r s . Fr o m t h e p o s t o ff ic e s id e w e c a n g o p e r p r o v in c e . We can go per m u n i c i p a li t y. W e c a n g o p e r d is tr ic t m u n i c ip a li ty o r n a t io n a l ly. It i s i n place. Page 41 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 T h e - th e t h in g is th e r e - t h e r e i s t h e m a in th i n g w h y t h e r e g is tr a ti o n i s - is s l o w I t h i n k is b e c a u s e o f - o f f u n d in g c h a l le n g e s a n d I th in k th e M i n is t e r s a r e - a r e a w a r e o f t h a t a n d w h a t th e y h a v e d o n e i n t h e m e a n t i m e is t h a t th e y h a v e e m b a r k e d o n a D D T v o lu n t e e r r e g is tr a ti o n p r o c e s s w h e r e b y w e u s i n g t h e c u r r e n t c o m m u n i ty w o r k e r s p r o g r a m r i g h t d o w n o n - o n p r o v in c i a l le v e l . S o w e h a v e a lr e a d y s e e n t h e - w i t h t h e D O C t h e fir s t fo u r four provinces. Fr o m th e p o s t o ff ic e s i d e w e a r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e p a y m e n t o f t h o s e v o l u n t e e r s a n d w e a r e - w e a r e p r o c e s s in g t h e f o r m s . 10 T h e - t h r e e o f t h e - o f th e p r o v in c e s h a v e b e e n a c t iv a t e d n o w a n d I t h i n k th e y a r e s t a r ti n g t o p ic k u p s p e e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : So that is why I think w i t h t h e - t h e c u r r e n t s t o c k w e h a v e t o s til l r e g i s te r a b o u t 3 0 0 0 0 0 p e o p l e . I t h i n k t h a t w i ll h a p p e n w i t h i n th e n e x t t w o t o th r e e m o n th s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : T h e s e c o n d o n e i s th e n o n - a c t iv a t i o n o f t h e - o f t h e i s s u e p h a s e in t h e - in t h e G a u t e n g a n d t h e W e s t e r n C a p e . N o w t h e - th e c h a ll e n g e th e r e is th a t fr o m t h e p o s t 20 o ffic e s id e a s I s a i d w e g o t c u r r e n tly 1 5 0 0 o u t le t s . Now they are s p r e a d a ll - a ll a c r o s s th e c o u n tr y. I c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h e - t h e i m p a c t o f t h a t t h e y - th a t t h e y w a n t t o g o p r o v in c e b y - b y p r o v i n c e b u t i f I d o o n e - o n e p r o v i n c e t h e o t h e r s a r e s t a n d i n g s t il l w h i le I h a v e t h e p e o p l e w a i ti n g f o r t h a t . S o y o u c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h a t s o m e o f th e s e g u y s h a v e b e e n Page 42 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 is s u e d - t h e y h a v e b e e n r e g i s te r e d i n 2 0 1 6 . T h e y a r e s ti ll w a i ti n g f o r t h e e q u i p m e n t a n d th e c h a ll e n g e s a r e c o m i n g o u t n o w w h ic h is o n e o f t h is . I j u s t w a n t t o e m p h a s is e th a t fr o m t h e p o s t o ff ic e s id e w e c a n g o p r o v i n c i a ll y o r n a ti o n a lly. T h e n t h e - t h e b ig g e s t o n e … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : That we - that we c u r r e n tly e x p e r i e n c i n g is t h e d e l a y w i t h t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e - o f t h e lo c a l in s t a ll e r s . N o w w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h e in s t a ll e r s c o n tr a c t s e x p ir e d in - i t w a s a p h a s e in p r o c e s s f r o m N o v e m b e r la s t y e a r a n d th e l a s t o n e 10 w a s - w a s e x p i r e d i n J a n u a r y. There was a lengthy process. So we had - no stock had moved. N o is s u e s h a d t a k e n p la c e o v e r t h e la s t s e v e n m o n t h s . So t h e M i n i s te r h a s - h a s a l s o t h e n u n d e r s to o d t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h is a n d s h e h a s a c ti o n e d it a n d w e a r e i n th e p r o c e s s n o w t o s e e w h e r e w e c a n h a v e t h e f ir s t p r o v i n c e u p a n d r u n n in g w i t h in t h e n e x t t w o m o n t h s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I f - if I m a y … M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : H m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Just direct you to number 15 which b e c o m e s th e e x t e n d e d b u l k w a r e h o u s i n g w h ic h i s s o m e th i n g t h a t t h e 20 C o m m i s s i o n h a s a ls o i n v e s ti g a te d g o in g t h r o u g h a l l th e w a r e h o u s e m o s t o f th e w a r e h o u s e s a n d p ic k i n g u p th a t t h e r e i s a lo t o f s t o c k l y i n g around. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Page 43 of 174 C u r r e n tl y w e – a s 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 w e s a i d b e f o r e t h e i n s t a l l e r s , t h e c o n tr a c t e x p ir e d w e w e r e fo c u s i n g i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d th e f ir s t p r o v i n c e t h a t t h e y w a n t to s w i t c h o ff is t h e Fr e e S t a t e p r o v in c e . S o I ’v e o n l y g o t c u r r e n t ly o n e w a r e h o u s e a n d t h a t is in B lo e m f o n te i n fo r t h a t a r e a a n d a ll t h e o th e r 1 3 t h e r e ’s n o m o v e m e n t w h ic h m e a n s t h a t , t h a t s t o c k h a s t o w a i t u n ti l I’ m g e tt i n g t h e r e . W e h a v e r e g is t e r e d a lr e a d y a b o u t 5 11 0 0 0 h o u s e h o l d s th a t c a n b e is s u e d s o I h a v e t o w a i t f o r t h e i n s t a l l a ti o n p r o g r a m m e t o k ic k i n to g e t t h e s e l o c a l in s t a ll e r s in t o p l a c e s o t h a t t h e y c a n a c tiv a t e t h a t a n d n o i t m e a n s t h a t y o u w il l k e e p o n c h a r g i n g – p a y h o u s i n g c o s t u n ti l 10 t h o s e s t o c k h a s b e e n d e p l e te d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h a t i s c o u p le d w i t h t h e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t th e p o s t o ff ic e h a s i n te r ms o f c a p a c i t y ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ja. W h i c h y o u d e a l w it h in p a r a g r a p h [i n d is t in c t] . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d th e n y o u h a v e d e a l t – j u s t g iv e n th e C h a ir a n i d e a o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t S A P O h a s d e a l t w i t h a n d y o u h a v e a s l id e t h a t y o u ’ ll s h o w t h e b r e a k i n s a n d t h e f ir e p r o b le m s a n d 20 s t u ff t h a t g e t s lo s t i n tr a n s i t a n d w h a t is t h e fi g u r e t h a t y o u h a v e t h e r e a t p a g e s ix ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Is t h a t R 5 0 8 8 5 . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page six. Ja. T h a t’s j u s t t h e l o s s e s y e s . Page 44 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : J a s o fr o m o u r s i d e t h e m o s t l o s s e s t h a t h a v e o c c u r r e d , th e r e ’s o n ly 1 2 i n c id e n ts y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t t h e t o t a l i t e m s t h a t w a s lo s t o r d a m a g e d is 8 5 a n d t h e t o ta l v a l u e o f t h a t i s R 5 0 8 8 5 . In t h a t c a s e w e a r e i n s u r e d a n d w e r e p l a c e i t a n d th e m o n e y w il l b e p a i d o v e r t o S A S S A f o r t h e r e p la c e m e n t o f t h a t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and then at page seven you d e a l w it h t h e a u t o g e n e r a l r e p o r ts , w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h a t a t le n g t h b e c a u s e a w i tn e s s i s g o i n g t o c o m e w h e n h e d e a ls w i t h B o s a s a a n d th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t w e r e c o n d u c t e d b y P W C a n d N a ti o n a l 10 Tr e a s u r y, t h o s e w o u ld r e la t e t o t h o s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s b u t t h e y t a l ly w i t h t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u ’v e p u t u p . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Ye s w e r e c e iv e d t h e A G r e p o r t s fr o m B o s a s a , w e ’r e w a i t in g c u r r e n t ly f o r th e f i n a l r e p o r t b u t I c a n j u s t e m p h a s i s e fr o m o u r s i d e it ’s a m a jo r – it ’s a m a s s i v e p r o j e c t . Fr o m o u r s i d e w h a t h a p p e n e d , A G t h a t w e d o a n a u d i t a t a ll t h e warehouses, we have cleared the most of the warehouses but there was a ti m e s p a n o f t w o d a y s th a t w e h a d a n d w e c o u ld n ’t d o th e r e m a in i n g o n e s s o t h e v a r ia n c e s h a v e b e e n a d d r e s s e d a n d t h e m o s t o f th o s e v a r ia n c e s a r e h u m a n e r r o r s . Yo u k n o w b e c a u s e t h e p r o j e c t is k e e p in g 20 o n s o l o n g w e g o t – w e r e p l a c e s t a ff o n a c o n t in u o u s b a s is . N e w s t a ff c o m e s in s t a ff – s o y o u w i ll h a v e h u m a n e r r o r s t h a t h a p p e n s a n d – b u t fr o m o u r s id e w e p u t t h o s e c o n tr o l s b a c k a g a in a n d w e c l e a r e d th o s e v a r ia n c e s . A t th e b r a n c h s i d e c u r r e n tl y t h e s a m e s c e n a r i o , w e h a v e c le a r e d a l l t h e – t h e r e w e r e 3 0 b r a n c h e s s e l e c t e d , a l l t h o s e b r a n c h e s t h e v a r i a n c e s h a s b e e n c l e a r e d a n d I t h i n k t h e r e w a s t w o i te m s w h e r e i t Page 45 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 w a s [i n d is t in c t ] b r a n c h l e v e l b u t o t h e r w i s e t h e r e s t o f t h e v a r i a n c e s w e r e a l l c l e a r e d a n d w e h a v e c o m m u n ic a t e d t h a t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s th a n k y o u . M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d th e n i n o r d e r t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e p r o j e c t d o e s n ’ t g e t s t a l le d y o u h a v e p r o p o s e d s o m e w a y fo r w a r d a n d y o u ’v e p l a c e d t h o s e p r o p o s a ls t o t h e M in is t e r a m I c o r r e c t ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : Fr o m o u r s i d e a s t h e M i n is t e r, I th i n k s h e u n d e r s t a n d s t h e i m p o r t a n c e t h e s p e c tr u m m u s t 10 b e c o m e a v a il a b l e a s s o o n a s p o s s i b l e , f r o m o u r s i d e w e a r e p r e p a r i n g a n d g e t o p e r a t io n a l ly r e a d y a n d w h a t t h e m in is t e r w a n ts i s th a t th e c u r r e n t s to c k m u s t b e r e g is t e r e d a n d is s u e d , t h a t m e a n s t h e r e m a i n i n g b a l a n c e o f R 8 5 5 0 0 0 k i ts t h a t li e s t h e r e – w e h a v e a lr e a d y r e g is t e r e d R 1 . 1 m il li o n h o u s e h o l d s s o w e c a n a l r e a d y s ta r t i m m e d ia t e l y to in s ta ll [i n d is t in c t] is s u e R 5 11 0 0 0 o f t h a t R 8 5 5 0 0 0 a n d t h e n w e s ti ll h a v e to r e g is t e r th e r e m a in in g R 3 0 0 0 0 0 w h i c h c a n h a p p e n s o o n w i th t h e v o l u n te e r p r o c e s s a n d w e c a n is s u e t h a t , t h a t’s t h e f ir s t g o a l . The s e c o n d g o a l i s th e n – is t h a t t h e mi n is tr y o r th e p r o j e c t o ffic e e m b a r k s o n t h a t n a t i o n a l v o lu n t e e r p r o g r a m m e t o r e g is te r a ll th e r e m a i n in g 20 3 .3 m i ll io n h o u s e h o l d s to w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e y e a r a n d w e a ls o f u ll y i n p l a c e w it h t h a t. F r o m t h e p o s t o ff ic e s i d e t o e n s u r e fr o m a c a p a c i ty p e r s p e c t iv e w e h a v e g o t a p p r o v a l f o r a p p o in t m e n t o f s t a ff a s w e l l a s f o r w a r e h o u s e a n d tr a n s le v e l t h a t t h e y c a n d e a l e ff e c ti v e ly w i th t h e c a p a c i ty t h a t ’s g o i n g t o c o m e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u , a n d t h a t’s w h a t y o u c o v e r Page 46 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 in p a g e 1 3 a n d 1 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t’s c o r r e c t . A n d a ll th e k i ts a n d t h e n u m b e r s a n d th e fi g u r e s y o u ’ v e g iv e n t h e r e , w e ’v e t a k e n n o te o f t h e m , w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o p u t t h e m o n r e c o r d a s t o h o w m u c h y o u r s t o c k is i n d e t a i l a s it is e v i d e n c e b e f o r e th e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d th e n l a s t ly t h e n w h a t y o u d e a l w i t h i n o th e r a t p a g e 1 4 w h i c h is t h e l a s t p a r t o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 4 4 , I t h in k r o u g h ly y o u h a v e c o v e r e d i t b e c a u s e w h e n y o u d e a l w it h th e w a y f o r w a r d i t’s – w h a t y o u s t a te t h e r e it ’s a l s o in v o lv e d 10 t h e r e b u t is t h e r e a n y t h in g e ls e th a t y o u w a n t t o h i g h l i g h t i n p a r a g r a p h 44? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : M r C h a ir I j u s t w a n t t o g iv e y o u a p i e c e o f m in d t h a t f r o m t h e p o s t o ff ic e s id e t h i s i s o u r c o r e b u s in e s s . T h i s is th e – w i t h t h i s p l a t f o r m w e c a n r e n d e r a n y i te m w h a t e v e r g o v e r n m e n t w a n ts t o c o m m u n i ty t h e p l a t f o r m s a r e t h e r e . W e a r e c o m m i t t e d t o e n s u r e th e s u c c e s s fu l c o m p le t io n o f t h is p r o j e c t a n d – b e c a u s e w e r e a l is e i t is i n n a ti o n a l i n te r e s t a n d fr o m o u r s id e w e a r e g e t t in g r e a d y, o n c e t h e M i n i s te r a n n o u n c e t h e p l a n s o n th e w a y f o r w a r d t o g e t o p e r a t io n a l ly r e a d y f o r th o s e p l a n s . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d t h a t i s y o u r s t a t e m e n t b e f o r e th e C h a i r p e r s o n ? M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t’s c o r r e c t. Ye s a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e , t h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u C h a ir t h e o n e t h i n g t h a t I fo r g o t , C h a ir t o m e n ti o n b e fo r e w e s t a r t e d is t h a t t h e p o s t o ff ic e is le g a l ly r e p r e s e n t e d , m a y t h e ir c o u n s e l Page 47 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 p l a c e h i m s e l f o n r e c o r d , I a p o l o g i s e f o r th a t . CHAIRPERSON: A lr ig h t l e t’s … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: W h e n h e f in i s h e s , th a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s l e t h i m o r h e r p u t h e r s e l f o f r e c o r d , p le a s e come forward. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir p e r s o n m y n a m e is I n v a m e l i N o n g o m o A d v o c a te r e p r e s e n ti n g M r v a n Vu u r e n o n b e h a lf o f t h e S o u th A fr ic a n P o s t o ff ic e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Thank you very much, thank you. Thank you very m u c h Mr J a n s e n v a n Vu u r e n , I w a n t e d to m a k e s u r e I d id n ’t s a y M r v a n Vu u r e n , M r J a n s e n v a n Vu u r e n th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r c o m i n g t o s h a r e y o u r e v i d e n c e w i th t h e C o m m i s s io n , w e a p p r e c i a t e i t , f o r n o w y o u are excused. M R A N TO N L O U R E N S J A N S E N VA N V U U R E N : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir, th e w i tn e s s – t h e n e x t w i t n e s s is r e a d y w a i ti n g b u t I ’ m g o in g t o a s k C h a ir f o r a f e w m o r e m i n u t e s i n s t e a d o f t h e n o r m a l te a a d jo u r n m e n t, t h e r e ’s s o m e v id e o s t h a t th e w i t n e s s w o u l d l ik e t o d e a l w i t h b u t I h a v e n o t v i e w e d t h e m a n d I w o u ld l ik e to b e g i v e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o v ie w t h e m a n d th e r e a f t e r s e e 20 w h e t h e r t h e y s h o u l d b e p r e s e n t e d , i f t h e r e a r e c h a l le n g e s I w o u l d lik e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to c o m e a n d a p p r o a c h i n c h a m b e r s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s th a n k y o u , w i th y o u r le a v e C h a ir could you grant us an extended tea adjournment, maybe that we r e s u m e a r o u n d q u a r te r t o tw e l v e i f t h a t is a c c e p ta b l e ? Page 48 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y t h a t’s fi n e t h e n le t ’s – w e ’ ll a d j o u r n fo r te a a n d t h e n w e w i ll a d d s o m e m o r e ti m e w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t q u a r te r t o t w e l v e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: As y o u p l e a s e C h a ir, th a n k y o u . We adjourn. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . M r C h a ir m a n t h e n e x t w i t n e s s i f M r H l a u d i G e o r g e M o t s o e n e n g . S o r r y C h a ir b e f o r e 10 y o u C h a ir y o u w il l h a v e Ex h ib i t C C 3 0 . M a y th is l e v e r a r c h fi le b e a d m i t t e d a s e v id e n c e ? T h e r e is t w o s t a t e m e n ts fr o m th e w i t n e s s C h a ir. The one is marked 30 – appears under 30.1 and the supplementary s t a te m e n t r e c e i v e d l a s t n i g h t is m a r k e d 3 0 . 2 . CHAIRPERSON: I can see the one under 30.1. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: The one under 30.2 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : 3 0 . 2 Ye s C h a ir. I t – t h e r e is a d i v i d e r marked 30.2 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t to w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e [ in d i s ti n c t ]? 20 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : To w a r d s t h e e n d C h a ir. W h e r e y o u h a v e number 16 – between number 15 and number 16. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. I f o u n d it . I t is ju s t th a t t h e r e a r e a lr e a d y too many dividers. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To o m a n y e x h ib it s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it m a k e s i t d i ffi c u l t. Page 49 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To fi n d t h e r i g h t o n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e l e v e r a r c h fi l e c o n t a i n i n g t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M r H l a u d i G e o r g e M o t s o e n e n g a n d a n n e x u r e s w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t CC30. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir b e f o r e th e w it n e s s is s w o r n i n M r M o ts o e n e n g i s r e p r e s e n t e d . May the counsel place themselves on record? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H i s l e g a l t e a m c a n p l a c e th e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir j u s t to p la c e i t o n r e c o r d I a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f M r M o ts o e n e n g . My n a m e i s M a c G r e g o r K u f a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a y t h e w i tn e s s b e s w o r n in ? C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n ? R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : My n a m e is H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: No. REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . Page 50 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . REGISTRAR: T h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th i n g b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p le a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o h e lp m e s o G o d . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M r M o ts o e n e n g y o u w il l h a v e in fr o n t o f y o u a f il e th a t i s E x h i b i t C C 3 0 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . I f y o u t u r n t h a t f il e t h e v e r y fi r s t p a g e w i ll h a v e a d e s c r i p t i o n , a n i n d e x t h e s e c o n d p a g e I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . Yo u w i ll h a v e a n i n d e x t h a t s h o w s y o u r m a in a ffi d a v it a n d y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t. a ffi d a v i ts . I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o j u s t i d e n t i fy th o s e T h e fir s t o n e is m a r k e d 3 0 .1 . T h e r e is a d iv id e r m a r k e d 3 0 . 1 . I t i s j u s t o n t o p , th e o n e o n t o p . CHAIRPERSON: I think somebody may need to assist him. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: To a s s i s t , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. Have you f o u n d i t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . C o u ld y o u ju s t t u r n t o p a g e 1 o f th a t s t a te m e n t ? T h e m a r k i n g s a r e o n t h e r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r in r e d . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Red. Page 51 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e r e i s 0 0 1 . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I a m w i t h y o u . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Have you found it? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . A r e t h o s e y o u r n a m e s th a t a r e written there? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n c o u ld y o u t u r n t o p a g e – I w i ll g i v e y o u th e p a g e n o w s o r r y. P a g e 4 1 . 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 41? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 4 1 . A r e y o u t h e r e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I a m th e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u . T h e r e is a c o m m i s s i o n e r o f o a t h s s t a m p b u t a t p a g e 4 0 t h e r e i s a s i g n a tu r e a n d y o u r n a m e s a p p e a r is t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e S ir ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s it is m i n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d d i d y o u d e p o s e t o th a t a ffi d a v i t o n the 2nd September 2019? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d a r e t h e c o n t e n ts o f th a t a ffi d a v i t 20 tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Sh a ll w e t h e n m o v e o n a n d id e n t i fy t h e s e c o n d – t h a t is t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t a n d th a t w i ll m a r k e d 3 0 . 2 . I t i s f u r t h e r d o w n in t h e p a c k . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I a m th e r e . Page 52 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ar e y o u th e r e s o r r y ? And if you could p l e a s e h a v e a lo o k a t p a g e 2 2 7 . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Ar e t h o s e y o u r n a m e s t h a t a p p e a r o n th a t p a g e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n i f y o u t u r n to p a g e 2 4 0 , 2 4 0 . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I am there. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t y o u r s ig n a t u r e t h a t a p p e a r s o n t h a t 10 page? MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: It is mine. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And your names appearing there? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. And then at page 241 there is a c o m m is s i o n e r o f o a t h s s ta m p . D i d y o u d e p o s e to t h a t a ffi d a v it o n t h e 8th September 2019? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d a r e t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Tr u e a n d c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . S h a ll w e t h e n g o b a c k t o t h e m a i n s t a t e m e n t w h ic h a p p e a r s u n d e r 3 0 . 1 ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Sorry under 20? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 3 0 . 1 th e v e r y fir s t o n e . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O h o k a y. Page 53 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: I s e e M s N o r m a n t h a t t h a t o n e is w r i t te n s u p p o r t in g a ffi d a v i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir y e s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M e a n s th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : C r e a t e s t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e r e is a n o t h e r a ff id a v i t t h a t i t is s u p p o r ti n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I s u s p e c t th a t w a s j u s t a n e r r o r ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: I – yes I suspect that the la w y e r s m a y – h is r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s m a y b e m a d e t h a t e r r o r C h a i r y e s . Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t is h i s m a i n a ff i d a v i t. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i t is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir t h e s e a r e t h e o n ly o n e s t h a t h a v e been submitted. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To t h e c o m m i s s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Thank you. Thank you. Mr M o ts o e n e n g it i s c o r r e c t – is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s o f t h e c o m m is s i o n ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is tr u e . Page 54 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u w e r e r e q u e s te d to d e a l w i t h m a t t e r s th a t r e l a te d to t h e S A B C ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I s it c o r r e c t t h a t a t s o m e p o i n t y o u w i ll g iv e u s th e d e t a i ls y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d b y th e S A B C ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s tr u e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i n w h a t c a p a c i ty w e r e y o u e m p l o y e d ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : H e y I o c c u p y m a n y p o s i ti o n s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . E v e r y p o s i t io n w it h in t h e S A B C I w e n t t h r o u g h a ll t h e s t e p s w i t h i n th e o r g a n is a ti o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: E x c e p t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e board. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: thank you. Th a t o n e i s s til l c o m i n g p o s s i b ly. Ye s C o u l d y o u j u s t ta k e t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h o s e s t e p s t h a t you… C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u n o t w a n t th a t o n e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o r r y C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e o n e y o u d i d n o t w a n t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir w e ll … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I s t a r te d a t t h e S A B C in 1 9 8 9 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A s a fr e e l a n c e r. A t th a t ti m e I Page 55 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 w a s s ti ll a t s c h o o l . T h e r e w e r e s o m e t a l e n t s e a r c h w h e r e t h e la t e H l a p a n e M a s i t e n y a n e i s t h e o n e p e r s o n fr o m th e S A B C a n d o t h e r s t h e y w e r e h e a d h u n ti n g y o u n g p e o p l e b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a C h a p p i e s L i t tl e L e a g u e i t w a s – i t w a s s p o n s o r e d y o u n g p e o p le s o c c e r s o t h e y id e n t i fi e d m e t h e r e a s p o te n ti a l to w o r k f o r S A B C a s a fr e e l a n c e r a t t h e ti m e I w a s s ti ll a t s c h o o l. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I – a i o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I m o v e d fr o m t h a t p o s it i o n a s a fr e e l a n c e r. I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e la t e [i n d is t in c t] Q w a q w a t o l e a v e television. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y h o w l o n g d i d y o u w o r k a s a fr e e l a n c e r o r you cannot remember? MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: I w o r k fr o m 1 9 8 9 u n ti l 1 9 9 5 e a r ly b e c a u s e I s t a r te d w o r k i n g p e r m a n e n t ly i n 1 9 9 5 M a r c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: 20 Ye s C h a ir. A f t e r th a t I w a s a fr e e l a n c e r f o r r a d i o a s a j o u r n a li s t u n til 1 9 9 5 w h e n I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y A l w y n Kl o p p e r s w h o w a s in c h a r g e f o r n e w s a t t h a t t i m e to jo in S A B C p e r m a n e n tly a n d r e a s o n b e in g t h a t a t t h a t ti m e t h e y w e r e lo o k i n g f o r y o u k n o w b l a c k j o u r n a lis t s , a ls o l o o k i n g f o r p e o p l e to c o m e o n b o a r d e s p e c i a l ly a s j o u r n a lis t s f o r d i ff e r e n t r a d i o s t a t i o n s . W e w e r e m a n y a s fr e e l a n c e r s fr o m d i ffe r e n t r a d i o s t a t i o n s . T h e y a p p r o a c h e d m e . I a g r e e Page 56 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t o j o in S A B C p e r m a n e n tl y s o i n 1 9 9 5 I w a s h e a d h u n t e d . A n d I w a n t to d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n h e r e w h ic h f o r m e it i s – i t is a n i n s u l t f o r p e o p l e to s a y t h a t I h a v e li e d a b o u t m a tr i c . I t is v e r y s e r i o u s i s s u e t o m e C h a ir p e r s o n . I t d o e s n o t g o w e ll w i t h m e w h e n e v e r y o n e m e d i a a n d o t h e r s t h e y p o r tr a y m e a s a li a r i n c lu d i n g P u b l ic P r o te c t o r. A n d I a m g o in g to d e m o n s tr a t e t o y o u C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y Alwyn Kloppers. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s – I d o n o t k n o w i f i t is h e o r s h e – w h a t w a s h is o r h e r p o s it i o n ? 10 M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n a t t h a t ti m e A lw y n K l o p p e r s w a s i n c h a r g e fo r c u r r e n t a ff a ir s n e w s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h a t a m a n i t i s j u s t t h a t I c a n n o t h e a r t h e n a m e p r o p e r ly e x c e p t t h e s u r n a m e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A l w y n Kl o p p e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w o u l d t h a t b e a m a n w o u ld t h a t b e … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O h a m a n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w o u l d th a t b e a m a n o r a w o m a n ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: A man Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright. 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s it … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y h i s p o s i ti o n w a s w h a t a t th e ti m e ? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : H e w a s in c h a r g e fo r c u r r e n t a ffa ir s n e w s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n t h e Fr e e S t a t e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : J a h e w a s t h e [i n d is t in c t] i n t h e Page 57 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 h e a d o ff ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t h e a d o ffi c e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A t h e a d o ff ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . I was head h u n t e d a n d I d e c l a r e fr o m t h e o n s e t t h a t A l w y n I d o n o t h a v e m a t r i c a n d w e h a v e d is c u s s i o n w it h A l w y n a n d t h e n h e s a i d t o m e b u t y o u a r e s o t a l e n t e d I d o n o t t h in k I n e e d m a tr i c f o r y o u t o w o r k fo r S A B C . B e c a u s e I h a v e s e e n y o u r c o n tr i b u ti o n w h e n y o u w e r e s t il l fr e e l a n c i n g . H e s e n t 10 t h e l a t e O liv i e r. T h e l a t e O liv i e r w a s fr o m B l o e m f o n t e i n t o s a y g o a n d c h e c k th is m a n . H e d o e s n o t h a v e a m a tr i c g o a n d e n g a g e h i m . So O liv i e r c a m e to Q w a q w a to e n g a g e m e n o w b e c a u s e I w a s s u p p o s e d t o g o t o B l o e m f o n t e i n to w o r k in B l o e m f o n t e i n . I a ls o d e c l a r e d t o h i m w h e n I d e c la r e d h e s a i d n o A l w y n t o l d m e t h a t y o u d o n o t h a v e a m a tr ic . S o w e w e n t a n d t h e n w e t a lk . B e f o r e I j o i n e d S A B C p e r m a n e n tly C h a ir p e r s o n th e y t o o k m e t o a c o u r s e t o g o a n d l e a r n a b o u t b r o a d c a s t in g . N o r m a lly S A B C t h e y d o n o t t a k e a fr e e l a n c e r to g o a n d tr a in a f r e e l a n c e r. SABC. 20 I t h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d i n t h e h is t o r y o f t h e I a m th e f ir s t p e r s o n t o b e t a k e n . E v e n w h e n I w a s t a k e n C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u l o o k t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e S A B C b e c a u s e n o r m a lly w h a t t h e y w il l d o I m e a n y o u k n o w w h e n y o u a t te n d th e s e c o u r s e s t h e y a s k a b o u t q u a li f ic a ti o n s , t h e y a s k a b o u t e v e r y t h i n g , a b o u t y o u r s e lf a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . I n t h o s e w h e r e w e fi ll t h o s e fo r ms y o u w ill n e v e r f in d a m a tr ic . Yo u w i ll n e v e r f i n d w h e r e I s a id I h a v e p a s s e d m a tr ic b e c a u s e it w a s a w e ll - k n o w n fa c t t h a t I d o n o t h a v e m a tr i c . A n d C h a ir I w a n t t o Page 58 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 d e m o n s t r a t e to y o u . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a m s o r r y M r M o ts o e n e n g s o r r y t o d is tu r b y o u s o t h a t y o u d o n o t l o s e t h is p o i n t th a t y o u h a v e ju s t m a d e a b o u t M r K l o p p e r s . C h a i r i f I m a y j u s t r e f e r C h a ir to th e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W h ic h i s Ex h i b i t C C 3 2 . M r M o ts o e n e n g y o u w il l s e e n e x t t o y o u o n y o u r l e f t h a n d s id e th e r e is a b o x . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O n th e l e f t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n t h a t b o x y o u w il l f i n d … 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O n e C C s o r r y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CC32. 32. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: CC – oh yes. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . C h a ir c o u l d I p l e a s e r e f e r t h e w i t n e s s to a n a ff id a v i t t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s f o u n d i n h is p e r s o n a l f il e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D e p o s e d t o b y M r A l w y n K lo p p e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t h e h a s m e n ti o n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t a p p e a r s C h a ir a t p a g e 4 0 4 . CHAIRPERSON: 404. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 4 0 4 . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Is t h a t A lw y n K l o p p e r s t h a t y o u m e n t io n e d t o th e C h a i r p e r s o n j u s t n o w ? Page 59 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A r e y o u a w a r e o f t h is a ffi d a v it o r a r e y o u s e e in g i t f o r th e fir s t t i m e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: I k n o w t h a t a ff id a v i t e v e n i f I am sleeping. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h d o y o u – d o y o u w a n t to A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f e e l t h a t h e w a s s ti ll w a n ti n g t o m a k e h is p o i n ts . D o 10 y o u w a n t t o l e t h i m fi n is h t h e p o i n ts h e w a n ts to m a k e t h e n r e v e r t t o i t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e n r e f e r to t h is ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h o k a y C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s a ll o w h i m … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y C h a ir I t h o u g h t h e h a d m o v e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n o p p o r t u n i ty t o … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To j u s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : To d e a l w it h t h is m a t t e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e it i s o b v i o u s ly a m a t te r th a t is q u it e i m p o r t a n t t o h i m a n d i t is i m p o r t a n t t o th e p u b lic . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is is a n o p p o r t u n i t y f o r h i m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : To d e a l w it h i t p r o p e r ly. Page 60 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M o ts o e n e n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o I w a s o n t h e p o i n t t h a t I w e n t a n d a t t e n d e d t h i s c o u r s e h e r e i n G a u t e n g fr o m Q w a q w a a n d I w a s f e tc h e d b y th e S A B C e m p l o y e e s a t t h a t t i m e . E v e r y b o d y k n o w in g th a t I d o n o t h a v e a m a tr i c . I attend a course. T h e r e is a c e r t i fic a t e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n o t h e r w o r d s p a r t o f t h e p o in t y o u m a k e is t h e r e 10 w o u ld h a v e b e e n n o p o i n t i n y o u a t t h a t t i m e s a y i n g y o u h a v e g o t m a tr ic when everybody knew that you did not have? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is p a r t o f t h e p o i n t y o u w a n te d to m a k e . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y c o n ti n u e . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o I a t t e n d th is c o u r s e a n d t h e r e a s o n s f o r m e t o a t te n d th a t c o u r s e a c c o r d i n g to m a n a g e m e n t n o w o f the SABC. b r o a d c a s t in g . 20 The reason was I shall get more experience on B e c a u s e w h e n y o u a r e a fr e e la n c e r y o u a r e j u s t y o u k n o w r e p o r t i n g b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w t h e g a m e o f b r o a d c a s ti n g . So I w e n t . Ev e r y t h i n g w e n t w e l l C h a i r p e r s o n . A f t e r th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g w a s t h e c o u r s e ? W h a t w a s t h e d u r a ti o n o f the course? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s n o t to o l o n g C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : L ik e a w e e k , a m o n th , t h r e e m o n t h s ? Page 61 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOT SOENENG: Let us say between a week and two weeks. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m – t o b e h o n e s t I w ill ju s t c h e c k b u t y e s i t w a s n o t t o o l o n g . S o – a n d w e w e n t w i t h o th e r s w h o w e r e ju s t e m p l o y e d b y t h e S A B C . I m m e d i a te ly C h a ir p e r s o n o n t h e 1 7 t h F e b r u a r y i n 1 9 9 5 I r e c e iv e d a le t t e r i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r c o m p l e t i n g th e c o u r s e t h a t y o u a r e e m p lo y e d p e r m a n e n t ly s o f r o m O l iv i e r. A n d C h a ir i f y o u l o o k a t th a t l e t te r i t is p a r t o f m y a t t a c h m e n t h e r e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Yo u k n o w w h a t is v e r y in t e r e s ti n g ? Th a t le t t e r i t d o e s n o t s a y a m a tr ic c e r t if ic a te a n d b e c a u s e t h e y k n e w t h a t I d o n o t h a v e a m a tr i c c e r t i fi c a t e . I t h i n k t h e S A B C t h e y w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t m y h e a l t h . Yo u k n o w w h e n y o u r e a d i t y o u w i ll s e e th a t th e y a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t m y h e a lt h I – th a t i s t h e c o n d i ti o n t h a t t h e y p u t a h e a l t h c o n d i ti o n . S o – a n d w h e n y o u r e a d t h a t l e t te r i n f u l l y o u w i ll r e a l is e t h a t t h e r e w a s n o c o n d i ti o n f o r m a tr ic . B e c a u s e e v e n i n t h a t d o c u m e n t t h e y a r e s a y i n g b r i n g q u a li f ic a t i o n . q u a li fi c a t io n ? 20 W h a t w il l b e Q u a l i fi c a t io n i t m a y b e c o u r s e t h a t y o u d i d w h i c h I b e li e v e th a t is th e c o u r s e t h a t I d id . I g a v e t h e m th a t q u a li f ic a ti o n t h a t t h e y h a v e e m p o w e r e d m e . S o t h a t is q u a l if ic a ti o n . T h e r e is n o m a t r ic nothing because they knew and Chairperson when Alwyn remember Alwyn I was supposed to go and work for Lesedi FM. came I t is ju s t th a t h e w a s a w h i t e m a n i n c h a r g e fo r a ll t h i s r a d i o s ta t io n s . W h a t h e n e e d t o d o a f t e r th a t h e n e e d t o g o t o t h e L e s e d i F M m a n a g e m e n t to Page 62 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 s a y I w a n t th is m a n a n d h e r e a r e th e r e a s o n s . W h e n h e ta lk a n d e n g a g e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e S A B C a t t h a t ti m e t h e l a d y [ in d i s ti n c t ] P h u l a p h u la M a t h ib e [ ? ] t h e y s a id n o a c t u a l ly w e a r e v e r y h a p p y. N d a d a [i n d is t in c t] I a m th e o n e w h o r e c r u i t e d t h e m a n fr o m te l e v i s i o n a n d t h e r e is a ffi d a v it o f P h u la p h u l a M a t h i b e c o n fir m i n g th e s a m e m a t t e r C h a ir p e r s o n . I w a s a p p o in t e d p e o p l e k n o w h i m e x a c tly. Th e o n l y i s s u e t h a t I w a n t t o d e m o n s tr a t e to y o u C h a ir p e r s o n y o u h a v e p r o b a ti o n a t t h e S A B C – s ix m o n t h s ’ p r o b a t io n . p r o b a ti o n . 10 If you join SABC you have that T h e a ff i d a v i t is – th e a t ta c h m e n t is t h e r e . T h a t p r o b a t io n f o r s ix m o n th s w h i c h m e a n s i f I l ie d a b o u t m a tr i c I c o u ld n o t p a s s t h a t p r o b a ti o n . performance. B e c a u s e p r o b a t io n i n my v ie w t h e y w il l l o o k a t y o u r T h e y w i ll l o o k o n y o u r q u a li fi c a t io n s . T h e y w i ll a s k y o u w h e r e i s th a t m a tr ic th a t y o u s a i d y o u h a v e m a tr i c ? W e c a n n o t e m p lo y y o u w i th o u t t h a t m a tr ic i t h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d . through that probation. C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t is w h y I w e n t They were happy and they were not unhappy I w a n t t o c l a r i fy t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n . Th e o n ly is s u e th a t y o u w il l fi n d t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n is t h e is s u e t h a t w h e n I w e n t to a c le r k t h e la d y c a ll e d M a r i e S w a n e p o e l – b e c a u s e n o w i t is w h e r e y o u n e e d t o s u b m i t w h a te v e r th a t y o u m u s t s u b mi t . 20 I n o u r d is c u s s i o n b u t I w a s a lr e a d y a p p o in t e d b y t h e S A B C . In o u r d is c u s s i o n s h e s a id H l a u d i h e r e is t h e f o r m a n d t h is f o r m y o u m u s t f il l t h i s f o r m . I s a id t o h e r, lo o k y o u k n o w w h a t I h a v e w r i tt e n m a tr ic b u t I d id n o t p a s s m a t r i c . B u t a t t h a t ti m e I a m w o r k i n g fo r S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n . A n d y o u w i ll … CHAIRPERSON: H o w lo n g a f t e r y o u h a v e s t a r t e d w a s i t w h e n y o u s p o k e t o th a t l a d y ? Page 63 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t h o w l o n g h a d y o u s t a r t e d w o r k in g p e r m a n e n t ly. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A h C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s p o k e t o t h a t la d y m o r e o r le s s ? A m o n t h , two months, six months? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o , n o C h a ir r e m e m b e r I w a s a fr e e l a n c e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o I m e a n a f t e r p e r m a n e n t a p p o in t m e n t . MR 10 H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o , n o a ft e r permanent a p p o i n t m e n t I w a s a p p o i n t e d i n Fe b r u a r y b u t s ta r i n g in M a r c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A f t e r t h a t a p p o i n t m e n t I w e n t to t h e la d y … CHAIRPERSON: O h s o i t w a s i m m e d ia t e ly a ft e r g e t ti n g t h e le t t e r f o r a p p o i n t m e n t. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k i t w a s a f t e r a d a y. CHAIRPERSON: After a day or so. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: [ in d is ti n c t ] [ C h a ir a n d M r M o ts o e n e n g s p e a k in g o v e r o n e a n o t h e r ] . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t o k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: I went to the lady to do w h a t e v e r. I m e a n y o u r m e d i c a l a i d b e c a u s e I w e n t a n d I g iv e a ll t h o s e d o c u m e n ts . Th e r e w a s a f o r m t h e r e w h e r e I w a s s u p p o s e d to f il l w h e t h e r I h a d p a s s e d S t a n d a r d Te n o r n o t. S o I d is c u s s e d w i th t h e la d y. I s a i d n o y o u k n o w w h a t I h a v e w r it t e n m a t r i c b u t b e c a u s e I h a v e Page 64 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 b e e n s u p p in g y o u k n o w y o u w r it e a n d th e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e b e e n w r i ti n g s u p p l e m e n t a r y e x a m s ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: And not even going to school because I was already … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t a t t e n d in g s c h o o l j a . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: W o r k i n g a t th e S A B C a n d C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t t o d e m o n s t r a t e t h is . I t i s s o p a i n fu l fo r u s a s b l a c k 10 p e o p l e w h e n y o u k n o w o u r h is t o r y. Yo u k n o w I w a s a l o n e a n d y o u fi n d h e r e n o w S A B C is e m p l o y in g y o u a s a fr e e l a n c e r I a m n o t e v e n ta lk in g about permanent. And you do not have anyone to look after you. What y o u w i ll c h o o s e ? Yo u w il l s a y a i t h e b r e a d I c h o o s e t h e b r e a d . I s a y le t m e g o a n d w o r k f o r S A B C . I w il l g o a n d w r i t e w h i c h I d i d b u t n o r m a l ly if y o u d o n o t a tt e n d c l a s s e s th e f u l l ti m e y o u w i ll f a i l . W h ic h I f a il e d . B u t I s a i d n o s o m e o n e a c t u a ll y c a ll e d m e a n d s a i d H la u d i y o u know what you need to do. If y o u c a n – i f y o u c a n c h e c k w i th t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f E d u c a t io n m a y b e c o m b in e y o u r s y m b o l y o u m a y g e t a p a s s . Th a t w a s t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I h a v e g o t a n d I w e n t – I s a i d t o 20 t h is l a d y n o I w a s a d v is e d t h a t i f m a y b e I g o a n d c o m b i n e t h e s y m b o ls I may get a pass. S h e s a i d n o i t i s f i n e b u t f il l t h is fo r m . I f ill e d th is f o r m C h a ir p e r s o n . I s a i d b u t I a m n o t e v e n s u r e a b o u t th e s e s y m b o ls t h a t I a m p u t ti n g h e r e b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r i t h a s b e e n l o n g I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. I d o n o t e v e n h a v e th o s e s y m b o l s w i th m e . They are in Q w a q w a I a m in B l o e m f o n t e i n a t s c h o o l . S o I f il l t h is s y m b o ls w h ic h I Page 65 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 m e n ti o n I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h e s y m b o ls a n d t h e n h e s a id n o b e c a u s e y o u a r e g o in g to P r e t o r ia y o u c a n f ill t h i s o n e . W h e n y o u c o m e fr o m P r e t o r i a y o u c a n t e l l m e w h e th e r y o u d id c o m b in e t h e s u b j e c t a n d y o u d i d r e c e iv e a p a s s . I w e n t w i t h S o p h ie M k w e n a to P r e t o r ia t o c h e c k m y s y m b o ls . I c a m e b a c k . A f t e r c o m i n g b a c k I t o l d t h e la d y n o y o u k n o w w h a t it is a p i ty I d i d n o t s u c c e e d a n d I a s k e d h e r m y s e lf . I s a id r e m e m b e r y o u s a i d I s h o u l d f il l t h i s f o r m . w i ll w r i t e o u t s t a n d i n g . S h e s a id n o d o n o t w o r r y I I n m y v i e w o u t s t a n d i n g i t m e a n s th a t I d o n o t h a v e m a t r ic . T h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g . I d i d n o t ta k e t h a t is s u e o f 10 t h a t I h a v e w r i tt e n S t a n d a r d Te n t h e r e a s r e a ll y t h e m a i n is s u e t h a t i t is a n is s u e . B e c a u s e s h e s a i d to m e o u t s t a n d in g f o r m e I d o n o t h a v e m a tr ic . B u t t h e r e a r e a l s o e n g a g e m e n t a f t e r t h a t w h e r e t h e s a m e la d y. W h e n I w a s in v e s ti g a t e d n o w b y t h e S A B C i n 2 0 0 0 t h e l a d y w r o t e a le t t e r a n d t h e l a d y s a i d I a m a w a r e th a t H l a u d i w e n t t o P r e t o r i a t o tr y to c o m b in e h i s s y m b o l s to g e t a p a s s . H o w c a n I c o m b i n e i f I s a i d I h a v e a m a tr ic ? m a tr ic . W h a t a m I g o in g t o c o m b i n e ? Because already I have a I t is i n s u l t in g C h a ir p e r s o n f o r p e o p le w h o d o n o t f o ll o w th a t n a r r a t iv e w h e r e I c o m e fr o m a b o u t a l l t h e s e is s u e s . In any case C h a ir p e r s o n my v ie w is th e o n l y p e r s o n w h o c a n s a y I l i e is m y 20 e m p l o y e r. T h e p e r s o n w h o w e n t a n d h e a d h u n t m e a n d t h e m a n a g e m e n t of the Lesedi FM. Th o s e a r e t h e o n ly p e o p l e w h o c a n s a y I l ie d . A n y o n e w h o c o m e s I d o n o t k n o w to b e h o n e s t a n d i t i s s o p a i n f u l C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e M e d i a p e o p l e h a v e b e e n t a r n is h i n g my n a m e a b o u t m a t r ic c e r ti f ic a te . W o r s t p a r t is P u b l ic Pr o te c to r. I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g i n th e – in h e r m i n d w i t h d u e r e s p e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 66 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 B e c a u s e h e r e is t h e P u b li c Pr o te c to r. I f y o u w il l c h e c k t h e tr a n s c r i p t C h a ir p e r s o n o r y o u l is te n t h e r e c o r d i n g I d e n y ly i n g a b o u t m a tr ic s e v e r a l , s e v e r a l t i m e s . H e y C h a ir p r s o n s h e p u s h . A n d t h e g u y w h o w a s w o r k i n g w i th h i m i n v e s t ig a t o r … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is n o w th e p r e v i o u s P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s t h e f o r m e r P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: S o r r y C h a i r t h e f o r m e r P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: S h e p u s h e d I c a n s e e b u t th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r h e r e w h a t s h e is p u s h i n g ? S h e s a i d t o m e a n d th is g u y w a s c l o s i n g th e m a tt e r. A c t u a l ly s h e w a s c lo s i n g t h e m a t te r. s a i d to t h e g u y n o , n o , n o H l a u d i h a s a n s w e r e d t h a t q u e s ti o n . He I said o k a y. Fo r m e I a m d o n e . S h e w e n t a n d s a id H l a u d i b u t l o o k in g b a c k d o y o u t h i n k y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o w r i te S t a n d a r d Te n ? Looking back, t h i n k i n g a b o u t a t t h a t t i m e y o u w e r e 2 3 y e a r o ld . D o y o u t h in k ? I s a id in m y v ie w I m e a n b e c a u s e M e d ia h a s b e e n t a r n is h i n g m e a n d a n y b o d y – I w a s s a y i n g b u t m a y b e I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d to e v e n t a k e a d v ic e fr o m 20 t h e H R to f il l t h a t f o r m . B u t I a m n o t a c c e p ti n g t h a t I li e d a b o u t m y m a tr ic . I a m j u s t s a y in g t h a t l o o k i n g n o w w h a t p e o p l e a r e s a y in g a b o u t me. How people view me I think I was not supposed to do it. But it d o e s n o t – I a m n o t s a y i n g I a c c e p t t h a t I l ie – I n e v e r l ie d C h a ir p e r s o n . G o d k n o w s t h a t I h a v e n e v e r li e d . T h o s e p e o p le w h o e m p l o y e d m e t h e y k n e w a n d w h a t is v e r y i n t e r e s t in g C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t th is m a tr ic is s u e . Page 67 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 E v e n a t th e S A B C y o u k n o w w h e n I a d d r e s s p e o p l e e v e r y b o d y k n o w t h a t I w i ll ta lk a b o u t m a tr ic . I w ill b o o s t a b o u t m a tr ic . A n d I w il l t e ll p e o p l e n o t h e r e a t h e a d o ff ic e e v e n w h e n I w a s in t h e Fr e e S t a t e t h a t m e I w i ll b e a t y o u . I a m n o t a fr a i d w i t h y o u r q u a li f ic a ti o n s b e c a u s e I t h i n k I a m c a p a b le a n d I h a v e a v is io n a n d I h a v e a p la n . A n d C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e w o n m a n y a w a r d s w i t h i n th e S A B C . I have – in c l u d i n g o u ts i d e r e c o g n it i o n i n c l u d i n g o u t s id e C h a ir p e r s o n . A n d I w a n t t o s a y C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e I a m g o i n g to t a lk a b o u t h e a d s o r a r g u m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n o n th e li g h t n o te y o u k n o w. Yo u u s e t h a t i n c o u r t s o . H e r e 10 is m y is s u e C h a i r p e r s o n I w a n t t o d e fi n e e d u c a t io n b e c a u s e i f w e d o n o t t e l l t h e tr u t h a b o u t e d u c a ti o n th is c o u n tr y w i ll c o ll a p s e . I n m y v i e w C h a ir p e r s o n I a m v e r y e d u c a t e d . I am very e d u c a t e d a n d I w il l t e l l y o u w h y C h a i r p e r s o n I a m s a y i n g th is . If you c h e c k a l l t h e m i n u t e s o f t h e S A B C y o u w il l s e e 7 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e r e s o l u ti o n s o f t h e b o a r d o r t h e r e s o l u ti o n o f th e E x c o I a m t h e m a i n m a n in f lu e n c in g t h e d e c is i o n w i th i n th e S A B C . S o t h a t s h o w s th a t I a m c a p a b le . I h a v e s k i lls b u t a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n y o u l o o k a n d I a m a s k in g ti m e o n th is C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a m s o r r y I k n o w I a m t a l k i n g l o n g 20 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t … MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: But I would just … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Want to … C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t y o u to … Page 68 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : To - t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : It i s a n i m p o r t a n t p o in t f o r y o u a n d to th e p u b l ic a n d t h is is a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r y o u t o p u t y o u r - y o u r s i d e o f t h e s t o r y o n . S o t h a t i s w h y I a m a ll o w i n g y o u b u t o b v i o u s ly w e c a n n o t g o t o o f a r … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m a l lo w in g t o y o u a fa ir o p p o r tu n it y to p u t y o u r s id e o f t h e s to r y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 And on the right note C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n y o u w e r e a s k in g s o m e q u e s t io n s t o o t h e r s y o u s a i d t o t h e m b u t if y o u d i d a d v e r ti s e t h is p o s t a n d a l lo w o t h e r s t o p a r ti c i p a te y o u d o n o t t h i n k m a y b e I a m j u s t - y o u d id n o t s a y t h a t - b u t y o u d o n o t t h i n k m a y b e y o u w il l g e t a n o t h e r p e r s o n w h o is b e t te r t h a n H l a u d i . I c a n t e ll y o u i n t h e S A B C n o o n e w a s b e t t e r th a n m e . E v e n i f th e y a d v e r tis e i t a n d C h a ir p e r s o n y o u - w e s h o u l d a ls o l o o k a t t h e c a li b r e o f m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e b o a r d t h a t t h e S A B C i s a p p o i n ti n g . W e m u s t lo o k a t t h a t b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m i s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a m g o in g to d e m o n s tr a t e t o y o u w h y I a m s a y i n g t h is . Yo u k n o w y o u g o f o r i n te r v i e w s . 20 Yo u w i ll f i n d th e p e o p le w h o a r e a s k in g y o u q u e s ti o n s th e y a r e c l u e l e s s b u t t h e s e p e o p l e th e y h a v e b e e n p u t th e r e a n d w h e n I a m s a y i n g t h e y a r e c l u e l e s s C h a ir p e r s o n I a m n o t j u d g in g p e o p l e a b o u t th e d e g r e e t h a t t h e y h a v e - h o w m a n y d e g r e e s b e c a u s e th e d e g r e e s C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u a r e a p p o in t e d t o s e l l m il k . Yo u a r e a m a n a g e r s o m e w h e r e s e ll in g m i l k i t d o e s n o t m e a n Page 69 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h a t y o u k n o w th e S A B C b e c a u s e f o r m e e d u c a ti o n is t h e k n o w l e d g e , t h e e x p e r t is e th e s k il ls o f t h a t e n v i r o n m e n t . W h a t I h a v e r e a lis e d C h a ir p e r s o n w h y I b e a t m a n y p e o p l e t h e r e is b e c a u s e a t t h e t o p I w a s the only one who has grown within the ranks of the SABC and I understand the SABC. E v e n w h e n I t a lk t o t h e e m p lo y e e s o f t h e S A B C t h e y k n o w w h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t b e c a u s e th o s e a r e t h e is s u e s th a t t h e y k n o w b u t i f y o u t a k e s o m e o n e fr o m o u ts i d e C h a i r p e r s o n th o s e w h o a r e s a y in g I a m n o t e d u c a t e d I tr a i n e d d o c to r s a t t h e S A B C . 10 I tr a in l a w y e r s . W h e n t h e y jo i n S A B C w h a t d o y o u k n o w ? I t is t h e o r y b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h a t o u r e d u c a t io n s y s te m is . P e o p l e k n o w th e o r y a n d w h e n y o u k n o w t h e o r y t h a t is w h e r e the problem is. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u s h o u l d c o m b in e … CHAIRPERSON: So you - you taught them about what happens in p r a c ti c e a t t h e S A B C a n d h o w S A B C w o r k s . T h a t i s w h a t y o u s a y y o u t a u g h t t h e m a b o u t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: It is an insult … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: For anyone who is saying Page 70 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 H l a u d i is M a tr ic le s s . CHAIRPERSON: And you - you say that the fact that you do not - you d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic d i d n o t p r e v e n t y o u fr o m a c q u ir i n g a l o t o f k n o w l e d g e a b o u t h o w S A B C w o r k s a n d th a t w a s a n i m p o r t a n t a d v a n ta g e o n y o u r s id e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I w a n t t o thank the SABC … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 B e c a u s e e v e n if y o u c h e c k m y p r o f il e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e y to o k m e t o u n iv e r s i t ie s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I le c t u r e a t th e u n iv e r s i ti e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w o n d e r h o w m a n y p e o p le w h o a r e s a y i n g I a m u n e d u c a te d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : E v e n t h e - a t - a t W i ts B u s i n e s s 20 School … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I le c t u r e a n d my le c t u r e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A b o u t le a d e r s h i p … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 71 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Th e y h a v e tu r n e d th e m a s p a r t o f t h e ir s y l la b u s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Who said I am no - I am - I am educated … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s a n in s u l t b e c a u s e w e m u s t 10 v ie w e d u c a ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : D i ff e r e n tl y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: T h e w a y p e o p le a r e v ie w i n g i t b e c a u s e t o h a v e p a p e r C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u a r e n o t e d u c a t e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : P a p e r o p e n s d o o r s fo r y o u … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t a ls o y o u n e e d y o u r s e l f … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: To e m p o w e r y o u r s e l f a n d I a m a ls o a l w a y s s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n , e d u c a ti o n fo r m e I le a r n e v e r y d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 72 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o th a t fo r m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Is education. Maybe C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o th a t I d o n o t l o n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Let me pause Chairperson. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o t h a t is fi n e a n d t h e n M s N o r m a n … 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n t h e n … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Then take you … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e y o u t h r o u g h s t e p b y s t e p … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: A n d th a t m i g h t i n v o lv e r e fe r r i n g y o u t o s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t m a y h a v e b e e n - t h a t a r e r e le v a n t t o s o m e t h i n g y o u h a v e a lr e a d y t o u c h e d u p o n b u t s h e w i ll th e n n o w l e a d y o u b u t I w a n t e d y o u t o h a v e a fa ir o p p o r t u n i ty o f d e a l in g w i t h t h is m a t te r t h a t y o u f e e l s tr o n g ly a b o u t . 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k - t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. M r M o ts o e n e n g c o u l d y o u j u s t p l e a s e h a v e a l o o k a t t h a t b u n d l e th a t i s m a r k e d C C 3 2 w h ic h is n e x t t o y o u . It is - it is a r e fe r e n c e fi l e . I t h i n k t h is is th e o n e o n y o u r w r i t e . Page 73 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Oh. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C C 3 2 . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 32? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , y e s . O n t h e s p i n e - i t is w r i t t e n o n t h e s p in e o u ts i d e M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O h , o u ts id e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t w o u l d b e w r it t e n 3 2 . Is t h a t t h e o n e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . It is th e o n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . C o u l d y o u p le a s e t u r n th e n t o p a g e - I w a n te d t o r e f e r y o u to p a g e 4 - 0 - 4 . T h e a ffi d a v it o f M r Kl o p p e r s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: 4-0-4? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H a v e y o u f o u n d i t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m - I a m n e a r ly th e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s - y e s C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , h a v e y o u fo u n d - t h a n k y o u . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I am there. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 I t i s q u it e - it is a b o u t t h r e e p a g e s l o n g b u t I w o u ld l ik e t o t a k e y o u j u s t t o id e n ti fy w h o M r K lo p p e r s w a s a n d m a y b e j u s t t a k e y o u t o t h e p a r a g r a p h s t h a t d e a l w i t h y o u r q u a l if ic a ti o n if y o u a r e h a p p y w i th th a t . Unless of course you feel that there are o th e r p a r a g r a p h s t h a t y o u n e e d t o h i g h li g h t . Th a n k y o u . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m f in e . I a m f in e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I n p a r a g r a p h 1 h e s a y s : Page 74 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 “ I th e u n d e r s ig n e d A l w y n Kl o p p e r s d o h e r e b y m a k e t h e f o l l o w i n g s ta t e m e n t u n d e r o a t h . I am an adult m a le e m p l o y e d b y th e S o u t h A fr ic a n B r o a d c a s ti n g C o r p o r a ti o n ( “ t h e S A B C ” ) a s i ts M a n a g e r R e g i o n a l Resources SABC News. F a c ts d e p o s e d t o h e r e in c o n ta in s a v e w h e r e o th e r w is e s t a t e d o r c o n tr a r y appears fr o m th e context w it h in my personal knowledge and are to the best of my knowledge and b e li e f tr u e a n d c o r r e c t . ” 10 A n d t h e n h e t a lk s a b o u t Mr R e d d y b u t in p a r a g r a p h 5 o r m a y b e fo u r h e s a y s - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n p a g e 4 . H e s a y s : “ M o s t n e w s r o o m s o b li g e d … ” I t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e n o w i f I s ta r t th e r e . Maybe Chair I s h o u l d s ta r t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 i n o r d e r t o - f o r i t to m a k e s e n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . T h a t is fi n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is it ? T h a n k y o u . “During 1994 I was tasked by the then Head or R a d io M r G o v in R e d d y to assist with the a p p o i n t m e n t o f s t a ff t o m a k e t h e S A B C ’s n e w s r o o m 20 a n d p o li t ic a l d e s k m o r e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e . A t th e ti m e I w a s th e M a n a g i n g E d i to r o f S A B C R a d i o N e w s . M r R e d d y p o in t e d o u t t h a t t h e s ta ff s h o u ld r e fl e c t t h e l a n g u a g e n e e d s o f th e S A B C ’s a u d i e n c e s i n th e c o u n tr y a n d th a t r e p o r te r s , n e w s b u l le t i n w r it e r s a n d c u r r e n t a ff a ir s s t a ff w e r e r e q u ir e d to f il e Page 75 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 e d i to r i a l c o n te n t i n a ll la n g u a g e s . ” Paragraph 4: “ M o s t n e w s r o o m s o b li g e d a n d s t a ff m e m b e r s w e r e a p p o i n t e d o v e r a p e r io d o f a f e w m o n th s . H o w e v e r t h e F r e e S t a t e N e w s r o o m e x p r e s s e d r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t t h e d r iv e t o t r a n s f o r m t h e S A B C R a d i o N e w s t o r e f le c t t h e d e m o g r a p h ic s o f S A B C a u d i e n c e s . Several d is c u s s i o n s were h e ld w it h the then R e g io n a l E d it o r o f t h e B lo e m f o n te in N e w s r o o m t o c o n v i n c e h i m t o a p p o in t s ta ff . H is m a i n r e a s o n n o t 10 t o a p p o i n t s ta ff w a s t h a t h e c o u l d n o t f i n e S e s o t h o s p e a k i n g j o u r n a l is ts . ” Fi v e : “ I p o i n te d o u t t o t h e R e g i o n a l E d i to r t h a t h e h a s o n ly o n e S e s o t h o s p e a k in g p e r s o n i n t h e n e w s r o o m a n d t h a t it w o u l d b e i m p o s s ib l e f o r t h a t p e r s o n t o fi ll fo r n e w s b u ll e ti n s a n d c u r r e n t a ffa ir s . I a d v i s e d h i m t h a t m o r e s t a ff m e m b e r s w e r e n e e d e d to g a t h e r n e w s , to p r o d u c e b u l l e t i n s o n t h e h o u r a n d to fi ll t h e c u r r e n t a ff a i r s s l o ts o f L e s e d i R a d io S t a ti o n . ” 20 S ix : “ I r e m i n d e d t h e R e g io n a l E d i t o r t h a t s o m e m o n t h s e a r l ie r I p r o v i d e d h i m w i t h c o n ta c t d e t a ils o f h i s E a s t e r n Fr e e S t a t e fr e e la n c e M r H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g who was in regular contact with the Bloemfontein Page 76 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 newsroom and b r o a d c a s t in g . p r o v id e d q u a li ty news for H e s a id t h a t Mr M o t s o e n e n g d id n o t h a v e M a tr ic a n d a s s u c h h e w o u ld n o t a p p o i n t h i m . ” Seven: “The m a tt e r was s u b s e q u e n t ly d is c u s s e d w i th M r R e d d y t o w h o m I e x p la i n e d t h e d i ff ic u l ty I h a d w i t h th e R e g io n a l E d i t o r i n B l o e m f o n t e i n a n d h o w he was not …” CHAIRPERSON: Well I am sorry … 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is t o o l o n g - o r m a y b e t h e o n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n j a . I d o th i n k y o u s h o u l d r e a d t h e w h o le of it. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No, thank you. Can we move to paragraph 10? C H A I R P E R S O N : I - s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a r a g r a p h 1 0 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k j u s t t o t e l l u s w h a t t h e g is t is w h a t i t is o f w h a t 20 it s a y s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Because he has … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e h a s t e s ti fi e d … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To i t . Page 77 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y b e p a r a g r a p h 1 0 C h a ir b e c a u s e t h i s is i m p o r t a n t. H e s a y s … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : “ M r M o ts o e n e n g n e v e r li e d t o o r m is le d t h e S A B C a b o u t h is q u a l i fi c a t io n s a s t h e S A B C w a s fu ll y a w a r e t h a t h e d i d n o t h a v e a M a t r ic C e r t i fi c a t e w h e n i t e m p lo y e d h i m . In f a c t h e d e c l a r e d t h i s fr o m t h e o u ts e t . ” 10 S o i s t h a t t h e a ff id a v i t t h a t y o u s a y y o u k n o w o ff b y h e a r t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I n r e s p o n s e t o th e q u e s t i o n s a n d th e n f o ll o w i n g t h a t p a g e Mr M o t s o e n e n g t h e r e is p a g e 4 - 0 - 7 . There is the a p p lic a ti o n f o r e m p lo y m e n t f o r m . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I s e e t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i d y o u c o m p le t e t h a t f o r m y o u r s e l f? 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s . I did but some of the - s o m e o f th e s p e l li n g th e r e o r th e o n e w h o w r o te M a t r ic is n o t m e . I t is t h e t w o p e o p l e w h o w r o te t h e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I f y o u c a n c h e c k t h e s p e ll i n g . I t is n o t e v e n t h e s a m e . Page 78 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s b u t o n - o n t h e fo r m i ts e lf d id y o u c o m p le t e y o u r n a m e a n d y o u r n a m e s t h e r e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u r n a m e a n d y o u r s u r n a m e th e r e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d y o u r h o m e a d d r e s s a n d p o s ta l addresses? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t e le p h o n e n u m b e r s ? 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and then if you turn over the p a g e y o u h a v e p u t i n y o u r I D n u m b e r a n d y o u r p la c e o f b ir th ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u p u t i n t h e h ig h s c h o o l ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d th e n t h e h i g h e s t s t a n d a r d p a s t i f y o u lo o k a t t h a t f o r m a n d y o u p u t i n th e r e 1 0 ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And you put in the year that you passed? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Oh you are - you are at page 4-0-8? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 79 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u p u t i n h i g h e s t s t a n d a r d p a s t a n d w h a t did you put in there? R HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOENENG: I put 10. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d th e n y o u - t h e r e is y e a r a n d t h e n w h a t y e a r d i d y o u p u t in ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: It is 1991. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n y o u p u t in y o u r a g e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN in f o r m a ti o n w a s f a ls e ? SC: Ye s . So do you agree that th a t That you had standard - you had passed Standard 10? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I - I do not agree. Reason b e i n g a s I h a v e a lr e a d y a l l u d e d t o t h e is s u e I d id n o t li e a b o u t S t a n d a r d 10. I was advised by the HR. That is the reason why I went to Pretoria t o c h e c k w h e th e r I c a n c o m b i n e t h o s e s y m b o ls to g i v e m e a M a tr ic C e r t i fi c a t e . I d i d n o t l ie a t a ll a n d a lr e a d y I w a s e m p l o y e d b y - b y t h e 20 SABC. T h e - th e is s u e th a t I a m s a y i n g C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t I a m s a y i n g - I a m s a y in g lo o k in g b a c k . Not accepting - looking back I was not s u p p o s e d to t a k e th is a d v i c e fr o m t h e l a d y b u t t h e r e is n o l ie a n d t h e S A B C d i d n o t - t h e S A B C k n e w th a t I d o n o t h a v e a M a tr ic . They e m p l o y e d m e b e c a u s e t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w h a t h e w a s p u s h in g h e w a s Page 80 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 s a y in g n o a c t u a l ly H l a u d i w a s - h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e e m p l o y e d b e c a u s e o f M a t r ic . T h a t is f a ls e . I t i s w r o n g a n d m is le a d i n g C h a ir p e r s o n h o n e s tl y … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B e c a u s e I - I - i f - if I w a s a n o t h e r p e r s o n I w o u l d s a y n o b e c a u s e t h is f o r m e v e n if y o u c h e c k C h a ir p e r s o n i s - is w r i tt e n - m a n y p e o p l e w r it t e n t h e r e b u t b e c a u s e I a m h o n e s t I a c c e p t d i d y o u s a y w h o . Ye s . I - I p u t t h a t o n e . I w il l s a y i t is 10 M a r i e S w a n e p o e l b e c a u s e s h e is t h e o n e w h o w r o t e h e r e i f I w a s h a v i n g m y o w n b u t I k n e w t h a t d i d i t b u t I w a s n o t ly i n g . I d id n o t li e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . I am going to put this question d i ff e r e n t ly. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I f I d iv o r c e m y m in d f r o m y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n e a r li e r a n d a l l I h a v e b e fo r e m e is t h is f o r m p a g e 4 0 8 . I f I l o o k a t t h a t f o r m I c a n s a y t h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o is m e n t i o n e d on this form has passed Standard 10 and … MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: No. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y, s o r r y. M a y I fi n i s h p le a s e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O k a y. The person who is mentioned on t h e s e p a g e s p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 a n d h is s u b j e c ts h e h a d E n g li s h a n E s y m b o l ; S o u th S o t h o , E s y m b o l ; A fr ik a a n s , E s y m b o l ; Bi b s , E s y m b o l a n d H is to r y F. T h a t i s w h a t I r e a d fr o m t h is p a g e . A lr ig h t . W o u ld t h is Page 81 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 in f o r m a ti o n b e c o r r e c t ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: It is n o t c o r r e c t b e c a u s e w h e n y o u l o o k C h a ir p e r s o n i n t h a t f o r m o u ts t a n d in g M a tr i c . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: O n t h e r ig h t h a n d s id e w h ic h w a s w r i tt e n b y t h e l a d y c a ll e d M a r i e S w a n e p o e l . W h e n y o u lo o k h e r e a n d t h is t a l k s t o t h e is s u e t h a t I w a s n o t e v e n s u r e a b o u t m y s y m b o ls C h a ir p e r s o n - w h e n y o u lo o k h e r e t h e s y m b o ls th a t I p u t h e r e I w a s ju s t p u t t in g - I p u t th e s y m b o l s t h e r e b u t t h e y d o n o t e v e n g i v e y o u a p a s s . 10 Those symbols they do not give you a pass. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h e y a r e - fo u r o f t h e m a r e s y m b o l E a n d t h e n t h e fi f t h o n e is - is i t J ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : F C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : F, o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o t h e p o i n t t h a t I a m m a k in g i s y o u m u s t r e m e m b e r a p e r s o n l o o k in g a t t h i s fo r m d o e s n o t k n o w y o u r 20 in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h M s S w a n e p o e l. T h e p e r s o n lo o k in g a t t h is f o r m i s lo o k in g a t a p e r s o n w h o h a s p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t is recorded here. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir w i t h d u e r e s p e c t I w i ll s u b m i t t h a t j u s t r e a d in g t h e f o r m i t d o e s n o t g i v e y o u t h e p e r s o n p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 . I f y o u d i d n o t g o to s c h o o l y o u c a n b e li e v e t h i s Page 82 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 b u t i f y o u w e n t to s c h o o l y o u m u s t r e a d y o u m u s t c h e c k w h a t i s th e w h a t i s t h e m e a n in g o f a l l is s u e s a n d a n a l y s e it . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o I ju s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d . Are you s a y in g b e c a u s e I n e e d to u n d e r s ta n d e x a c tl y w h a t t h e p o in t y o u m a k i n g is . I a m n o t u n d e r s ta n d i n g i t . A r e y o u s a y in g t h a t th is i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u a r e p u t ti n g - t h a t y o u h a d p u t in h e r e w a s u n r e li a b l e i n f o r m a ti o n because you must look at it and compare with what Ms Swanepoel had said on the right hand side? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 C h a ir p e r s o n . I - I am saying t h is I w a s a d v is e d - I a m s a y i n g I w a s n o t s u r e a b o u t t h e s y m b o ls w h i c h M a r i e S w a n e p o e l i n h e r o w n l e tt e r c o n fi r m e d th is . M a r i e S w a n e p o e l i n h e r o w n - b y w r i t in g o u t s t a n d i n g M a tr ic c o n f ir m e d t h is . T h is d o c u m e n t a c c o r d i n g to m e C h a i r p e r s o n i n - i n m y v i e w w h e n I c a m e fr o m P r e t o r i a n o w c o m in g b a c k to s a y I d o n o t h a v e M a tr ic . I c a n n o t g e t t h o s e s y m b o ls t o g iv e m e a p a s s . F o r m e t h e H R - t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to r e m o v e t h is p a p e r. T h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d - a s H R - t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o - t o r e m o v e it b u t in s te a d o f r e m o v i n g i t t h e y p u t o u ts ta n d i n g a n d in m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e c a u s e I e n g a g e d - i n m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o u ts t a n d in g i s - M a t r ic i s o u t s ta n d i n g . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o - a n d i t - i t w a s w e ll k n o w n t h a t I d id n o t li e a b o u t M a t r ic . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e n if y o u s a y th e y c o u l d h a v e p u t it a w a y th e n i t m a k e s t h e p o in t w h ic h I a m m a k in g t o y o u t h a t t h e n - t h a t in f o r m a t io n w a s u n r e l i a b l e - i n c o r r e c t i n fo r m a ti o n . Page 83 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir. Yo u k n o w i t is E n g l is h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I d o u n d e r s ta n d , y e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s u n r e li a b l e th e … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is , y e s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e i n fo r m a t i o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d i t is … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Well let - let me … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: r e l i a b le . L e t m e - le t u s l e a v e - le a v e a s i d e r e li a b l e o r n o t L e t u s g o b a c k to t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t M s N o r m a n p u t a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e i n fo r m a ti o n w a s f a ls e . T h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t y o u h a d passed Standard 10 on what you have told me today could not have b e e n tr u e . Do you - do you understand that or do you want me to c o n ti n u e b e f o r e y o u - s o t h a t y o u c a n f o l lo w i t ? M a y b e l e t m e c o n ti n u e . I t c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n tr u e b e c a u s e y o u y o u r s e l f h a v e t o ld m e t o d a y th a t y o u d id n o t h a v e M a tr ic . S t a n d a r d 20 1 0 w a s M a tr ic . O k a y, b u t i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t w h a t y o u m a y b e w a n ti n g t o s a y i s th a t a l t h o u g h t h i s i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t y o u h a d p a s s e d M a tr ic w a s n o t t r u e i n w r i t in g i t d o w n y o u m a y h a v e a c t e d i n g o o d f a it h o n t h e a d v ic e o f M s S w a n e p o e l i f t h a t is t h e c a s e b u t i t s e e m s to m e b a s ic a lly fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t y o u c a n n o t s a y y o u d i d n o t h a v e M a t r ic t h e n b u t t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t s a y s y o u h a d p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 i s Page 84 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 correct. T h e t w o a r e m u t u a ll y e x c l u s iv e b u t i t i s a d i ffe r e n t th in g i f y o u s a y I a c c e p t t h a t w h a t I w r o t e th e r e is n o t t r u e b u t h e r e a r e th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h I w r o te w h a t I w r o te t h e r e a n d w h e n I l o o k a t t h o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s I b e l ie v e I d i d n o t d o a n y t h i n g w r o n g - if t h a t is w h a t y o u s a y. Yo u - y o u u n d e r s t a n d ? Yo u u n d e r s t a n d th e d is t in c ti o n ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 100 percent I agree with you. T h a t i s w h y I w a s s a y i n g e v e n w h e n t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r e a r li e r - w h e n I s a i d l o o k i n g b a c k I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o t a k e t h a t a d v ic e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Fr o m M a r i e S w a n e p o e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d o n t h e p o i n t n o w t h a t 20 y o u h a v e a g r e e d w i t h C h a ir m a y b e w e s h o u l d ta k e y o u t o w h a t i s c o n ta in e d a t p a g e 4 - 1 - 3 o f t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t - s a m e b u n d l e … MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Page? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CC32. Page 4-1-3. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y Ms N o r m a n . L e t m e j u s t c l e a r th is . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. Page 85 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e w o r d s o u t s t a n d i n g M a t r ic C e r ti f ic a t e w h ic h a r e w r i t t e n o n th a t p a g e 4 - 0 - 8 w e r e t h e y w r i t te n a f te r y o u h a d c o m e b a c k fr o m P r e t o r ia o r b e fo r e y o u w e n t t o P r e t o r ia o r d o - d o y o u n o t remember? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I - I C h a ir p e r s o n . I remember everything. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir. The - the symbols o n t h e le f t h a n d s i d e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I h a v e w r i tt e n th e m b e f o r e I w e n t to P r e t o r ia . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e o u ts t a n d in g o n e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: M arie Swanepoel wrote when I c a m e fr o m P r e t o r ia . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. O k a y. T h a t i s a f t e r y o u h a d r e p o r t e d b a c k to her how you had gone in Pretoria? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . M a y b e to - t o b e f a ir t o y o u M r M o t s o e n e n g w e s h o u l d s ta r t a t p a g e 4 - 1 - 1 . Page 86 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 4 - 1 - 1 . Ar e y o u t h e r e ? T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P a g e 4 - 1 - 1 … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 4 - 1 - 1 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e s a m e b u n d l e , ja . A D V T H A N D I N O R M N : S a m e b u n d le , y e s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h is is a l e t te r t h a t w a s w r i t t e n to y o u M r M o ts o e n e n g fr o m M r P a u l Ta t i H u m a n R e s o u r c e s C o n s u l t a n t . I s t h a t 10 correct? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And - and th a t letter was dated 27 March 1996. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Is correct. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d th e n i t - t h e r e f e r e n c e is “ E d u c a ti o n a l Q u a li f ic a ti o n ” a n d t h i s is w h a t it s a y s : “ W e r e f e r to t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e w r i t e r o n 1 9 M a r c h 1 9 9 6 in th e a b o v e r e g a r d a n d c o n fi r m t h a t y o u h a v e u n d e r t a k e n to w r i te t h e 20 o u t s t a n d i n g c o u r s e t o w a r d s o b t a i n in g y o u r M a tr ic C e r t i fi c a t e d u r i n g O c t o b e r 1 9 9 6 . W e a l s o c o n fir m t h a t i t w a s p o in t e d o u t t o y o u t h a t t h e la c k o f t h is c e r t if ic a te w i ll b e a s e r io u s i m p e d i m e n t i n y o u r c a r e e r p r o g r e s s i o n in th e c o r p o r a ti o n . W e w is h y o u e v e r y s u c c e s s in y o u r a c a d e m ic e n d e a v o u r s a n d Page 87 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 a d v ic e that we w i ll f o l l o w your progress w i th in t e r e s t . Yo u r s fa i th f u l ly, P a u l Ta t i . ” Yo u - d i d y o u r e c e iv e t h a t le t t e r ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. If you could just turn over the p a g e a t p a g e 4 - 1 - 2 . T h i s w a s a n o t h e r l e t t e r i t a p p e a r s to b e . I t l o o k s lik e a m e m o b u t i t - i t is - i t w a s w r i t t e n t o y o u . M r M o t s o e n e n g f r o m M s H M o f o k e n g d a t e d 1 2 O c t o b e r 1 9 9 9 a n d t h e s u b j e c t: “ E d u c a ti o n a l Q u a li f ic a t i o n M a t r ic C e r ti fi c a te : 10 we r e fe r to l e tt e r d a te d 2 7 M a r c h 1 9 9 6 fr o m P a u l Ta ti r e g a r d in g o u ts t a n d i n g M a tr ic C e r ti fi c a t e . Yo u a r e hereby once again requested to hand in a copy of your M a t r ic C e r t i fic a t e as soon as possible. A t t a c h e d p l e a s e fi n d a c o p y o f t h e le t t e r s e n t to y o u b y P a u l Ta t i . ” W h i c h is t h e s a m e l e tt e r t h a t w e h a v e a lr e a d y r e a d . Oh s o r r y. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . I t i s a n o th e r l e t t e r a n d t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 4-1-3. That one was date 4 May 2000. “ D e a r M r M o ts o e n e n g , M a tr ic C e r ti fi c a t e : I r e f e r t o 20 t h e a b o v e m a t te r a n d c o n fir m t h a t d e s p i t e n u m e r o u s r e q u e s ts a n d r e m i n d e r s y o u r M a tr i c C e r t if ic a te is s t il l o u ts ta n d i n g . M a n a g e m e n t m u s t in s is t th a t th is c e r t if ic a te Resources is s u b m i tt e d O ffi c e 12 May 2000. by to no your local Human l a te r than Fr id a y I m u s t a l s o d r a w y o u r a tt e n t io n t o Page 88 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 the fact that you have recorded your highest s t a n d a r d p a s s e d a s S t a n d a r d 1 0 i n t h e a p p li c a t io n f o r e m p lo y m e n t f o r m w h ic h y o u c o m p l e t e d w h e n y o u jo in e d t h e S A B C i n 1 9 9 5 . a s s is t a n c e in t h is I a p p r e c i a te y o u r regard. Yo u r s f a i t h f u lly, M r P M Ta t i . ” D i d y o u a l s o r e c e iv e t h a t o n e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h e n th e l a s t o n e I w o u l d li k e 10 t o r e fe r y o u to i s t h e o n e w r i t t e n b y M s M a r i e S w a n e p o e l . Is t h a t th e la d y th a t y o u r e fe r r e d t o a s t h e o n e w h o h a d w r i t te n o u ts t a n d in g c e r t if ic a te ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , y e s , y e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and that appears at page 4-1-4. S h e m e n ti o n s y o u r n a m e i n th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h . A lt h o u g h s a y s r e r e fe r e n c e : “ To w h o m i t m a y c o n c e r n . ” T h e le t t e r i s d a te d 5 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 0 0 . “ G H M o ts o e n e n g , A 3 9 8 . ” 20 A n d s h e s a y s th a t - I a m s o r r y j u s t : “Ms H Botes was M r M o ts o e n e n g did aware of the not hand in fact his th a t M a tr ic C e r t i fi c a t e w h ic h I ju s t w r o te o n t h e a p p li c a t io n form outstanding M a tr ic C e r t i fic a t e M a r c h 1 9 9 5 . M r M o ts o e n e n g t h e r e a f te r w e n t t o Pr e t o r i a t o s e e i f Page 89 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 h e c a n g e t a M a tr ic C e r t i fic a t e t o c o m b in e h is s y m b o ls . He in f o r m e d me on the date of a p p o i n t m e n t t h a t h e w a s n o t s u r e o f th e s y m b o ls o f h is s u b je c t s a n d I in f o r m e d h i m t h a t it w a s fi n e . ” MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Correct. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ; a n d t h e n t h e la s t o n e o n t h e M a tr ic C e r ti f ic a te i s s u e is a ls o fr o m Ms L e ts a t s i a n d t h a t is p a g e 4 - 1 - 5 d a te d 4 M a y 2 0 0 0 . “ I r e f e r t o t h e a b o v e m a t t e r a n d c o n fi r m t h a t d e s p i te numerous 10 requests and r e m in d e r s your M a t r ic C e r t i fi c a t e is s t il l o u t s ta n d i n g . M a n a g e m e n t i n s is ts t h a t th is c e r ti fi c a t e b e s u b m i t t e d to y o u r lo c a l H u m a n R e s o u r c e s O ffi c e b y Fr id a y … ” Is i t n o t t h e s a m e t h a t I r e a d ? Ye s , i t i s t h e s a m e . I t is t h e s a m e le t t e r a s t h e o n e t h a t I r e a d . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I think … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I t is t h e s a m e l e t t e r a s t h e o n e t h a t a p p e a r s a t 4 - 1 - 3 a n d t h e n p a g e 4 - 1 - 6 . D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h a t d o c u m e n t M r M o ts o e n e n g ? 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . I d o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t - w h a t is th is ? W h a t - w h a t is t h is d o c u m e n t ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: T h is d o c u m e n t i t w i ll b e t h e s y m b o ls . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 90 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: T h a t I w a s r e f e r r in g t o th e - now when you combine your - your symbols. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Is t h is t h e c e r t if ic a te t h a t y o u s u b m i tt e d t h e n t o y o u r e m p l o y e r ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I - yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) c e r ti f ic a te . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I t h i n k th is o n e C h a ir i t g o e s h a n d i n h a n d w it h M a r ie S w a n e p o e l . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Is w h e n t h e S A B C t h e y w e r e s t a r ti n g to in v e s ti g a t e t h is m a t t e r. S o m e p e o p l e w e r e b e l ie v i n g t h a t n o I l ie d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: F o r m e t o b e e m p l o y e d a t th e SABC … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d t h e n t h a t is w h e n n o w I - I tr i e d to g e t t h i s - w h a t d o y o u c a l l ? T h is c e r ti fi c a t e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o th a t I c a n c h e c k … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : My - w h e t h e r - m y s y m b o ls . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s . Page 91 of 174 It c o n fir m s what 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 Marie Swanepoel was saying. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u . S o j u s t to e n d u p t h e n th a t t o p ic a l l i n a l l t h e n a s y o u c a n r e a d fr o m w h a t M is s – I k n o w w h a t y o u h a d s a i d o u ts t a n d in g m a t r ic b u t o u t s t a n d i n g m a t r ic c e r ti f ic a t e m a y mean that you passed m a tr i c b u t t h e c e r t i fi c a t e y o u have not s u b m i tt e d ? MR HLAUDI GEORG E MO TSO ENENG: I n my v i e w, n o t a t a ll , i n my u n d e r s t a n d in g I’ m j u s t ta lk in g i n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g e s p e c i a lly k n o w i n g 10 t h a t I h a v e l ie d , I h a v e n e v e r s a id I h a v e g o t m a t r ic c e r t i fic a t e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B u t t h e n w h y i s th a t M r Ta t i k e p t o n h a r p in g o n th e c e r t if ic a te , w h e n a r e y o u s u b m i t t in g y o u r m a tr ic c e r t if ic a te ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: A i C h a ir, m a y b e h e k n o w s w h y b e c a u s e i f y o u lo o k a t h is l e t te r s , c o n tr a d ic ti o n , in o n e le t t e r h e ’s s a y in g t h a t o u r d i s c u s s io n , w h ic h i s tr u e , o u r d is c u s s i o n , i n th a t y o u w e r e r i g h t o u ts ta n d i n g s u b j e c ts a n d h e s a i d th is is g o in g t o h a v e i m p a c t o n y o u fo r y o u r p r o g r e s s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s le t ’s g o t o t h a t l e tt e r b e c a u s e t h a t m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a t i s tr u e C h a ir, w e ’ ll fi n d i t , s o r r y … [ in t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: w h ic h page I Maybe before we go there just remind me again on f in d Mr M o ts o e n e n g ’s a p p l ic a t i o n written…[intervenes]. Page 92 of 174 fo r m , the one 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Page 408. O k a y I ’d l o s t i t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h e o n e w e r e fe r r e d to C h a ir ? P a g e 4 0 8 C h a ir. O k a y a lr i g h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h e n t h e l e tt e r t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g r e fe r s to t h a t is 4 11 . CHAIRPERSON: 10 4 11 ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ye s , w e l l i f y o u – i f o n e r e a d s t h a t l e tt e r fr o m M r P a u l Ta t i a t p a g e 4 11 , i t – j u s t r e a d i n g t h a t l e tt e r a l o n e l e a v i n g o u t o th e r s , i t s e e m s t h a t c e r ta i n ly, a s a t th e 2 7 t h o f M a r c h 1 9 9 6 , w h ic h is t h e d a t e o f h i s le t t e r t o y o u , h e d i d u n d e r s t a n d th a t y o u h a d – y o u h a d n o t p a s s e d m a t r ic y e t ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: I t is tr u e C h a ir Ye s a n d h e c o n fir m s t h a t i n t h e c o n v e r s a t io n th a t h e h a d , h a d w i t h y o u t h e r e w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t y o u u n d e r to o k to w r i t e t h e o u t s ta n d i n g c o u r s e – I d o n ’t k n o w i f i t w a s c o u r s e o r c o u r s e s a t t h a t 20 ti m e b u t t h e o u t s t a n d i n g c o u r s e , th a t ’s w h a t h e s a y s , t o w a r d s o b t a i n in g y o u r m a tr i c c e r ti fi c a t e , t h a t’s h o w h e p u ts i t a t t h a t ti m e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir. Ye s b u t I w a n te d to g o b a c k t o w h e n y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d p e r m a n e n tl y i n 1 9 9 5 , I t h i n k y o u s a id e a r li e r o n , s o m e t h i n g to t h e e ffe c t t h a t p o s s e s s i o n o f m a tr i c w a s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e Page 93 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 p o s i ti o n fo r w h i c h y o u w e r e a p p o i n te d , d i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c tly ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. Are you sure about that? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir, I’ m s u r e b e c a u s e I n e e d e d t o p r o d u c e th e le t t e r w h e r e w e c a n s e e m y a p p o i n t m e n t le t t e r, I t h i n k i t w o u ld ta lk t o y o u r q u e s t io n C h a ir a n d g iv e y o u c o m f o r t o n t h a t, o n t h a t l e tt e r w h a t t h e l e t te r s a y s , a n d a l s o C h a ir m a n , l e t m e j u s t a d d t h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p le a t t h a t s ta g e t h a t d o n ’ t h a v e m a tr i c , e v e n to d a y. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: SABC even on record p u b lic a lly s o . CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k D r N g u b a n e s a i d th e s a m e th i n g y e s t e r d a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s t h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e , a t t h e S A B C C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u a ls o l o o k a t t a l e n t, y o u k n o w S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n e v e n i f y o u c a n c o m e w i t h a d e g r e e i f y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t a l e n t , i f y o u a r e n o t a s i n g e r y o u a r e n o t a s in g e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hmm, hmm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s i f y o u a r e n o t a b r o a d c a s t e r b e c a u s e b r o a d c a s t e r is t a l e n t , th a t ’s w h y C h a ir p e r s o n 20 y o u ’ ll f in d t h a t – a n d I’ m n o t s a y i n g t h is b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t h a v e t h o s e d e g r e e s , th e h i s to r y o f t h e S A B C m o s t p e o p l e w h o a r e e x c e l li n g i s t a l e n t , i t ’s n o t t h o s e q u a li fi c a t i o n s . T h e r e a r e t h o s e t h a t a r e e x c e ll i n g b u t y o u c a n s e e t h a t a t l e a s t t h e y h a v e e m p o w e r e d th e m s e lv e s a n d a ls o e n h a n c e d t h e ir ta l e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Page 94 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: But most of them they are not – b e c a u s e t a le n t i s t a l e n t C h a ir p e r s o n , w e e v e n i n a B o a r d m e e ti n g a r g u e th e s e i s s u e s t o s a y, l o o k h e r e y o u a r e n o t E s k o m s o e v e n i f y o u e m p l o y p e o p le , w e e v e n – I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w e l l C h a i r p e r s o n b u t I t h i n k w e e v e n c h a n g e d t h e p o li c y o f t h e S A B C t o s a y, l e t u s l o o k a t t a l e n t b e c a u s e w h e n p e o p l e h a v e t a le n t y o u c a n ’ t g o w r o n g . Th e y a r e t h e ones – who bring audience because i t ’s a ll about s o m e ti m e s C h a ir p e r s o n t h o s e w h o a r e n o t r e a l ly h a v in g a ll t h o s e d e g r e e s , y o u k n o w s o m e p e o p l e w il l s a y, n o t h e s e p e o p le u s e l e s s s t u ff b u t t h a t 10 p e r s o n is th e m o s t p e r s o n th a t is b e i n g fo ll o w e d b y t h e a u d ie n c e . Fo r m e i t ’s j u s t m a y b e – i t’s a b r o a d c a s te r C h a ir p e r s o n . People who are a c ti n g a s a c t o r s , y o u r s o a p ie s a n d d r a m a s , s o m e o f t h e m t h e y d o n ’t h a v e e v e n m a tr ic b u t … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: But they are good actors. MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: I think even the judges they w a t c h t h e s e p e o p le , th e y a r e s o e x c i t e d . CHAIRPERSON: [Laughter] MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: S o y o u s e e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t ’s w h y I’ m s a y i n g in S o u th A fr ic a w e m u s t b e a b l e to ta lk to th e 20 business. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l y o u s e e M r M o t s o e n e n g , a n d w e ’ ll g o b a c k t o m y q u e s ti o n n o w, I m e a n , y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t o c o n v i n c e m e o r p e r s u a d e m e t h a t s o m e b o d y w h o d o e s n ’ t h a v e m a tr i c o r s o m e b o d y w h o n e v e r w e n t t o s c h o o l m a y h a v e t a le n t , m a y b e b r ig h t , m a y b e s m a r t a n d m a y b e v e r y g o o d i n c e r t a i n t h in g s , y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t o c o n v i n c e m e I k n o w Page 95 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 that to be true. So I would not look down upon a person just because t h e y d o n ’t h a v e fo r m a l e d u c a ti o n o r b e c a u s e t h e y d o n ’ t h a v e m a tr ic , o r because they don’t have a degree, you see. in s t i tu t io n Obviously if in an t h e l a w o r th e p o li c i e s o r t h e r e g u l a ti o n s s a y f o r t h i s p o s i ti o n y o u m u s t h a v e a c e r t a i n q u a l i fi c a t io n , th e n f o r m e i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t th e r e m u s t b e c o m p li a n c e w i t h t h e la w, t h e r e g u la t io n s and the p o l ic ie s b u t j u s t b e c a u s e q u a li fi c a t io n d o e s n ’ t somebody doesn’t have that m e a n th a t t h e y a r e u s e le s s , d o e s n ’ t m e a n t h a t t h e y d o n ’ t d e s e r v e r e s p e c t, i t d o e s n ’ t m e a n th a t th e y d o n ’ t h a v e d ig n it y. 10 T h e y a r e i m p o r t a n t , t h e y c a n p la y a v e r y i m p o r t a n t p a r t a n d m a k e a v e r y i m p o r ta n t c o n t r i b u t io n i n s o c ie t y w i t h o u t th a t . So I just thought m a y b e I m u s t ju s t m a k e t h a t c l e a r. B u t l e t’s g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s t io n , y o u w e r e lo o k in g f o r a l e tt e r b u t w h e n y o u g a v e e v id e n c e e a r li e r, I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o b e s u g g e s t in g t h a t t h e l e t t e r m ig h t n o t n e c e s s a r ily h a v e s a i d a n y t h i n g a b o u t m a t r ic b u t i t s a i d s o m e th in g a b o u t y o u r h e a l th a n d I – fr o m t h a t I s u s p e c t e d t h a t th e p o i n t y o u w a n te d t o m a k e w a s i f m a tr ic w a s a r e q u i r e m e n t , t h e l e t te r w o u l d h a v e s a i d s o m e th in g a b o u t it , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . I n o t h e r w o r d s if w e g o – i f w e lo o k f o r i t , i t ’s n o t g o i n g to – w e ’r e n o t g o i n g t o f i n d a n y s e n te n c e i n t h e le t t e r t h a t s a y s m a tr ic is n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t b u t w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y is , it d o e s n ’ t r e f e r t o m a tr ic b e c a u s e m a tr ic w a s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t , t h a t ’s h o w y o u r e a d i t a d i t d o e s r e f e r to t h e is s u e s o f h e a lt h b e c a u s e is s u e s o f h e a l t h w e r e a r e q u ir e m e n t , t h a t ’s w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o s a y ? Page 96 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a i r b e c a u s e n o r m a ll y i f y o u a r e e m p l o y e d i n t h a t le t t e r i t w i ll b e , s u b m i t y o u r m a tr ic c e r ti f ic a t e o r y o u r d ip lo m a , I ’ m j u s t g i v i n g … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s th a t ’s h o w n o r m a ll y i t w o u ld – y e s b u t i n t h is c a s e i t d i d n ’ t s a y th a t ? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t d i d n ’ t s a y t h a t C h a ir a n d t h a t l e t te r is h e r e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I’ m s u r e w e w il l f i n d i t . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : 10 Ye s i t ’s p a g e 2 0 9 C h a ir – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir t h a t w o u ld b e p a g e 2 0 9 o f C C … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e b u n d le t h a t h a s g o t h is s t a t e m e n t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: H is s t a t e m e n t i t ’s a n A n n e x u r e t o M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s t h e d i v i d e r ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h e d iv i d e r n u m b e r C h a ir, w o u ld b e a t n u m b e r 11 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: H a v e y o u f o u n d i t C h a ir ? Ye s I f o u n d i t , i t s a y s , “ D e a r M o ts o e n e n g t h e S A B C h a s p l e a s u r e i n o ff e r i n g y o u ’r e 20 t h e f o l lo w i n g p o s i ti o n , t h a t is tr a i n e e j o u r n a l is t ” , T h e n i t g i v e s d e ta il s t h e r e a f t e r i t s a y s , “ Yo u r a p p o i n t m e n t i s a l s o c o n d i ti o n a l u p o n a s a t is f a c t o r y m e d i c a l c e r t if ic a t e a n d X - r a y r e p o r t. A t t a c h e d is m e d ic a l q u e s t io n n a ir e t o b e c o m p le t e d b y a m e d ic a l p r a c t i ti o n e r, i t w i ll b e i n y o u r o w n i n t e r e s t t o u n d e r g o t h e m e d i c a l e x a m i n a t io n Page 97 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 b e f o r e y o u c o m m e n c e s e r v ic e . a r r a n g e m e n ts for th e X- r a y T h e c o r p o r a t io n w i ll m a k e e x a m in a ti o n a ft e r you been appointed. Membership of the pension fund”, T h e n I t h in k t h e p o i n t y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Th e n e x t p a g e C h a ir. O h th e n e x t p a g e , “ P l e a s e r e p o r t to b l a h - b l a h - b la h th e n s a y s d o c u m e n ts r e l a ti n g to appointment including a copy of the c o r p o r a ti o n s d is c i p l i n a r y c o d e a n d g r i e v a n c e p r o c e d u r e w h ic h f o r m p a r t o f 10 y o u r c o n d i ti o n s o f s e r v ic e w il l b e h a n d e d t o y o u , i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e p e r s o n n e l r e g u l a t io n s y o u a r e r e q u e s t e d t o s u b m i t , t h e fo ll o w i n g d o c u m e n t’s w h e n y o u r e p o r t fo r d u t y, 1 ) b ir t h c e r t if ic a te or n a t io n a l i d e n t i ty d o c u m e n t, 2) e d u c a ti o n a l c e r t if ic a te s , 3 ) u n e m p lo y m e n t in s u r a n c e c a r d , in c o m e t a x r e fe r e n c e , v a li d d r iv e r s li c e n c e b a n / b u i ld in g s o c i e ty, t h e n k in d ly in f o r m m e w i t h i n 1 5 d a y s o f t h i s le t t e r w h e t h e r y o u a c c e p t th e a p p o in t m e n t , th is is d o n e b y c o m p l e ti n g th e d e c l a r a ti o n a t th e e n d o f t h e o r ig in a l o f th i s le t t e r ” , I th in k w h a t I ’v e r e a d i n c lu d e s w h a t y o u w a n te d to h i g h l ig h t . 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. A n d i t s a y s y o u m u s t s u b m i t y o u r e d u c a ti o n a l q u a li fi c a t io n s w i t h o u t s a y i n g m a tr ic , j u s t e d u c a t io n a l q u a li fi c a t i o n s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. Ye s o k a y s o g o in g b a c k y o u s a y o n t h e b a s is o f t h i s le t t e r, y o u s a y t h a t p o s s e s s io n o f m a tr ic w a s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t o f a Page 98 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 p o s i ti o n to w h ic h y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d i n 1 9 9 5 ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d t h e n i n r e g a r d t o – i f w e g o b a c k t o 4 0 8 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Th a t w il l b e i n t h e o t h e r b u n d l e . J a t h e o th e r b u n d l e t h a t is th e a p p l ic a ti o n f o r e m p l o y m e n t , s o t h e s y m b o l s w h ic h y o u w r o te t h e r e a p p e a r t o b e v e r y m u c h m o r e o r le s s th e s a m e a s t h e s y m b o ls th a t a p p e a r i n th e l e t te r fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f E d u c a ti o n t h a t w e lo o k e d a t s o m e m i n u t e s a g o , m a y b e th e r e m ig h t b e o n e o r t w o d i ff e r e n c e s , y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t le t t e r. 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Th a t w il l e 4 1 6 C h a ir. 4 1 6 o k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I r e m e m b e r C h a ir. Ye s t h e d i ff e r e n c e – o r m a y b e I’ m w r o n g , t h e f ir s t , y o u s a i d th e fir s t t h r e e E n g lis h , S o u t h S o th o a n d A fr ik a a n s a n d [i n d is t in c t] , y o u s a i d t h e r e y o u g o t E , s y m b o l E , i n t e r m s o f t h a t l e t te r S o u th S o th o , f ir s t la n g u a g e h i g h e r g r a d e w h a t w a s E , E n g l is h s e c o n d la n g u a g e s t a n d a r d g r a d e w a s f , A f r i k a a n s s e c o n d l a n g u a g e s t a n d a r d g r a d e it w a s F, B i b li c a l s t u d i e s i t w a s E a n d t h e H is t o r y F, B i o lo g y H . y o u s a y w h e n y o u w r o t e t h e s e s y m b o ls o n th e a p p l ic a ti o n fo r m , y o u 20 w e r e n o t s u r e o f t h e s y m b o l s t h a t y o u h a d a lr e a d y r e c e iv e d ? MR HLAUDI GEORG E MO TSO ENENG: Ye s C h a i r th a t w i ll b e s u p p o r t e d b y – i f y o u c h e c k 1 9 9 0 a n d t h e n y o u c h e c k 1 9 9 2 , [i n d i s t i n c t ] t h is is w h a t I w a s s a y in g . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. Page 99 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a lr ig h t b u t j u s t to g o b a c k i f y o u – a s I u n d e r s t a n d it y o u h a v e n o w a c c e p t e d th a t w r i ti n g 1 0 w h e r e t h e f o r m r e q u ir e d y o u t o w r i te t h e h i g h e s t s ta n d a r d p a s s e d , t h a t w a s n o t tr u e b u t y o u s a y, it s h o u l d b e l o o k e d a t i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w e r e g iv e n i n r e g a r d to w h a t a d v ic e y o u w e r e g i v e n ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . C h a ir th e ti m e n o w i s 1 o ’ c l o c k , m a y w e ta k e t h e lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t ? 10 CHAIRPERSON: O h y e s le t ’s t a k e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t w e a r e g o i n g t o r e s u m e a t 2 o ’c l o c k . REGISTRAR: A ll r is e . I N Q IU R Y A D J O U R N S INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u , M r C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u g o in g to m o v e a w a y fr o m t h i s M a tr i c is s u e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , C h a ir b u t t h e r e w a s ju s t o n e r e fe r e n c e w e w e r e g o i n g to m a k e b e f o r e w h ic h r e la t e d t o t h e q u e s t io n 20 t h a t y o u a s k e d w h e t h e r M a t r ic w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t’s d o th a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: L e t ’s d o th a t b e c a u s e I m a y h a v e t w o o r t h r e e q u e s t io n s t o r o u n d o ff t h a t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: To t h a t ? Ye s . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. M r Page 100 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M o ts o e n e n g , c o u ld y o u p l e a s e tu r n t o p a g e 2 1 4 o f w h e r e y o u r s t a te m e n t i s , E x h i b i t 3 0 ; C C 3 0 ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e b u n d l e th a t h a s g o t h is s t a t e m e n t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H is s t a t e m e n t . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e p a g e n u m b e r ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 214. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR HLAUDI MOTSO ENENG: Bundle? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t ’s C C 3 0 , t h r e e z e r o . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b u n d l e th a t h a s g o t y o u r s t a t e m e n t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Page 214. MR HLAUDI MOTSO ENENG: 214? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I t w i ll b e u n d e r d iv id e r n u m b e r 11 . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , I’ m t h e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . T h is is a n e m a il d a te d , s e n t. I t ’s fr o m M s M o fo k e n g s e n t o n t h e 3 1 s t o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 to M s M o s w e u o r M r M o s w e u , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n a n d th is is w h a t s h e s a y s , D e a r M r M o s w e u , r e q u e s t e d c l a r i f ic a ti o n l e tt e r b y M s H M M o f o k e n g d a te d 1 2 O c to b e r 1 9 9 9 . M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s 20 a p p o i n t e d a s a tr a in e e j o u r n a li s t w i th a c o n d it i o n t h a t h e w ill c o m p le t e h is M a tr ic c e r ti fi c a t e a s a g r e e d h a v i n g w r it t e n t h e o u t s t a n d i n g c o u r s e i n O c to b e r in 1 9 9 6 . H e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e c e r t i fic a t e d u r i n g 1 9 9 7 . I t is p r o c e d u r a l t h a t H R fr o m t i m e t o ti m e a u d i t t h e p e r s o n n e l f il e s t o e n s u r e th a t a l l r e q u i r e d d o c u m e n ts a r e c o r r e c t ly fi le d . H e n c e , m y fo ll o w - u p Page 101 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 o n M r Ta ti ’s le t t e r t o Mr M o ts o e n e n g . T h e e x p e c t a ti o n b y th e e m p l o y e r w a s t h a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g w o u l d h a v e w r it t e n t h e o u t s t a n d i n g s u b je c t s a s p e r h is d is c u s s i o n w it h M r Ta t i a n d s h o u l d h a v e h a n d e d in t h e c e r t i fic a t e w h ic h w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t for the job. W h a t i s y o u r c o m m e n t t o t h a t ? S h e s a y s th a t s a y s t h a t t h a t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r th e j o b a n d y o u w e r e e x p e c t e d t o c o m p l e t e y o u r M a tr ic . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : B u t I t h i n k w h e n y o u r e a d M r Ta t i’s le t t e r, f o r m e t o b e h o n e s t I th i n k i t w a s g o o d t o e n c o u r a g e s o m e o n e to g o a n d a c q u ir e a c e r t if ic a t e b u t i t w a s n o t r e q u ir e m e n ts . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d th e n j u s t o n t h a t s c o r e . CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y. W h e r e is th e p a r t in t h e l e tt e r t h a t s a y s , M a tr ic w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W h ic h w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e j o b . T h a t ’s p a g e , t h e l a s t tw o l a s t s e n t e n c e s C h a ir j u s t b e fo r e r e g a r d s . T h e e x p e c ta t io n , i t s t a r ts w i t h t h e e x p e c t a ti o n b y e m p l o y e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y. Is t h a t 2 0 8 ? N o , 2 1 4 ? 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 1 4 , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I ’ m s o r r y. I ’ m lo o k i n g a t a w r o n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 1 4 , o k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i t s a y s w h ic h w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e j o b . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e p a r a g r a p h b e f o r e t h a t m a k e s it c l e a r t h a t Page 102 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n t e d , t h a t is M r M o t s o e n e n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A s a t r a i n e e j o u r n a l is t , h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s i t s a y s w i t h a c o n d i ti o n t h a t h e w il l c o m p l e te h i s M a tr i c c e r ti fi c a t e a s a g r e e d . N o w, t o s a y h e w o u ld c o m p l e t e h is M a tr ic c e r t if ic a te is o f c o u r s e n o t a n a c c u r a te ; n o t a c c u r a t e l a n g u a g e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m u s t m e a n t h a t h e w il l c o m p le t e h is M a tr ic . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H is M a tr ic . T h a t’s c o r r e c t . Ye s , C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , w h ic h m e a n s i f o n e l o o k s a t th is le t t e r, t h is e m a i l it m u s t m e a n th a t th e a u t h o r is a c k n o w l e d g i n g t h a t w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n t e d , th a t i s M r M o ts o e n e n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s a n a c c e p t a n c e th a t h e w a s y e t t o c o m p l e te h is M a t r ic . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H is M a tr ic . Ye s , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o , a lt h o u g h h e s a y s o r i s it a s h e l a te r o n in t h e e m a i l , th is w a s a r e q u i r e m e n t f o r th e jo b . I t m a y m e a n th a t i t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e jo b b u t i t h a d b e e n d e c i d e d f o r w h a te v e r r e a s o n s 20 t h a t th a t s h o u ld n o t b e e n f o r c e d i m m e d ia t e ly. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But he was encouraged to. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To c o m p le t e h is M a tr i c . C H A I R P E R S O N : To c o m p l e t e h is M a tr i c . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , C h a ir. Page 103 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: T h e y m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e d i s c u s s e d w i th i n w h a t ti m e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h i n w h a t t i m e fr a m e a n d w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n if h e f a il e d to . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e f a i le d to f u l fi l th a t c o n d it i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n m a y b e la s tly … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w o u l d g o a l o n g w i t h t h a t i n te r p r e t a t i o n ? MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: Ye s , C h a ir a n d I c a n a l s o a ll u d e t o t h e is s u e t h a t a ll t h e s e p e o p le w h o a r e w r i ti n g th e s e l e t t e r s t h e y w e r e n o t there when I was employed. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR HLAUDI MOTSO ENENG: S o , a t t h a t ti m e t h e c o n d i t io n s o f e m p l o y m e n t n o M a tr ic a s th e l e t te r a ll u d e d to t h e is s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d i d y o u e v e r s e e th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w o u l d h a v e s p e c i f i e d w h a t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts f o r t h a t p o s i t io n w e r e ? O r a r e y o u s i m p l y s a y i n g p o s s e s s i o n o f M a tr ic w a s n o t a r e q u i r e m e n t s i m p l y b e c a u s e n o b o d y s a i d t o y o u t h is is a r e q u ir e m e n t? A n d t h e w a y th e y handled th e s i t u a t io n s u g g e s t e d to you Page 104 of 174 t h a t M a tr i c was not a 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 r e q u ir e m e n t ? MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: C h a ir, I t h i n k t h e M a tr ic is s u e th e w a y I s e e i t i n m y v ie w i s b e c a u s e I h a v e a lr e a d y t o l d t h e m th a t I d o n ’ t h a v e M a tr ic . S o , m a y b e t h a t le t t e r th a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y th e y d i d n ’ t l o o k f o r M a tr ic . B u t i n th e h is t o r y th a t I , i n m y h is t o r y a t th e S A B C e v e n A l w y n K l o p p e r s d u r in g my d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g h e a l lu d e d t o t h e is s u e t h a t h e w a s n o t e v e n s u r e w h e th e r M a tr ic w a s a c r it e r io n t o e m p lo y a t t h e SABC. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s , n o b u t w h a t I w a n t y o u t o , w h a t I w a n t t o e s t a b li s h is w h e th e r w h e n y o u s a y M a tr i c w a s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h a t p o s i ti o n y o u s a y s o b e c a u s e y o u d i d h a v e a l o o k a t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s , a t t h e d o c u m e n ts o f S A B C w h e r e t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r th e p o s i ti o n w e r e la id d o w n . A n d y o u k n o w t h a t t h e y d id n o t i n c l u d e M a t r ic o r w h e t h e r y o u a r e s i m p ly s a y in g i t w a s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t b e c a u s e o n e , t h e y e m p l o y e d y o u k n o w i n g y o u d id n o t h a v e M a tr ic . Tw o , th a t le t t e r t h a t w e t a l k e d a b o u t e a r li e r o n . MR HLAUDI MOTSOEN ENG: C h a ir, I c a n o n ly d e a l w it h m y is s u e b e c a u s e t h e y e m p lo y e d m e k n o w i n g t h a t I d o n ’t h a v e M a tr ic . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : O n o t h e r m a t t e r s r e a ll y, I c a n ’ t g o f a r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. S o , i n th a t e v e n t th i n k t h e c o r r e c t a n s w e r t h e r e f o r e is t h a t y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r p o s s e s s i o n o f M a t r ic w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e p o s i t io n a t th e ti m e . B u t w h a t y o u d o k n o w is t h a t y o u d is c lo s e t o t h e m t h a t y o u d i d n o t h a v e M a tr i c a n d n e v e r t h e l e s s t h a t d i d n o t p r e s e n t a n o b s t a c l e t o t h e m a p p o i n ti n g y o u . T h a t ’s a ll y o u c a n Page 105 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 s a y. M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u , C h a ir. A n d in h is o p e n i n g a d d r e s s , M r M o ts o e n e n g h a d m e n ti o n e d t h e f a c t o f h i m h a v in g , o f h is p r o b a ti o n h a v in g b e e n c o n f ir m e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir, w o u ld r e c a l l t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d m a y I ju s t r e f e r C h a ir to p a g e 2 1 2 ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . 2 1 2 o f th e s a m e b u n d l e . MR HLAUDI MOTSO ENENG: 212. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : I h a v e lo s t t h e p a g e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y o u m e n t io n e d e a r ly … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u g o t i t, M r M o ts o e n e n g ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON: Have you got the page? 20 MR HLAUDI MOTSOEN ENG: N o t y e t b u t I k n o w v e r y w e ll a b o u t t h e le t t e r, C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : I ’ m c o m f o r t a b l e . Ye s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , i t s a y s w r i t t e n o n t h e 2 5 t h o f O c t o b e r Page 106 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 1 9 9 5 a d d r e s s e d t o y o u M r M o ts o e n e n g . I t s a y s , Dear c o m p le t e d Mr your Motsoeneng, probationary as you period, I have s u c c e s s fu ll y have p le a s u r e in c o n fir m i n g y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t t o t h e p e r m a n e n t s t a ff . W e w i s h y o u e v e r y s u c c e s s f u l i n f u tu r e . Is t h is t h e c o n fir m a t i o n t h a t y o u w e r e r e fe r r in g to ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . M r M o t s o e n e n g , ju s t t o c lo s e t h is is s u e . W o u l d y o u a g r e e w i th m e t h a t w e r e i t n o t f o r t h e f o r m 10 it s e l f t h a t h a d th e s y m b o ls a n d t h a t in d ic a t e d t h a t y o u h a d p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 , n o o n e w o u l d s a y t h e r e w a s a n y m i s r e p r e s e n ta t io n ? B e c a u s e a c c o r d i n g t o th e l e t t e r s th a t w e ’v e a d d r e s s e d , M r Ta ti a n d e v e r y b o d y e ls e a p p r e c ia t e th a t y o u h a d t o c o m p le t e a c e r ta i n o r o n e o f t h e s u b j e c t s a t le a s t . S o , w e r e i t n o t f o r t h e f o r m a n d th e w a y i t w a s c o m p le t e d t h a t w e fi n d a t p a g e 4 0 8 o f Ex h i b i t C C 3 2 , n o o n e w o u l d b e r a i s i n g t h e is s u e o f m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , I t h i n k a s t h e C h a ir d i d a ll u d e d e a r l y when you check the background of my employment. But if someone just c h e c k a n d h a v e h is o w n a n d i n te r p r e t i t d i ff e r e n tl y. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , a n d in f a i r n e s s to t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r y o u m i g h t f i n d t h a t t h a t w a s h e r f o c u s a s w e ll . T h a t f o r m w a s her focus. MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: I e x p la in s e v e r a l t i m e s . To b e h o n e s t C h a ir, I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r c a m e to s u c h c o n c lu s i o n . R e m e m b e r a l s o , s h e i g n o r e d t h e m a in e m p l o y e r. T h e a ffi d a v i t o f A l w y n Page 107 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 K l o p p e r s , th e a ffi d a v i t o f P u p u l a M u t h i b i s h e ig n o r e d e v e r y t h in g . S o , f o r m e i n t h e is s u e is r e a ll y g e t t in g th e tr u t h s h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o e v e n c a l l t h e m , C h a ir. To s a y, c a n y o u c o m e a n d c l a r i fy t h e s e i s s u e s b e c a u s e I’ m c o n f u s e d h e r e . S o , f o r m e I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t i n f o r m e d t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r b u t I c a n s a y h e r e , C h a ir I h a v e n e v e r a g r e e d w i t h t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r t h a t I li e d o n my M a tr ic is s u e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e d o n e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r, y e s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . L e t ’s g o t o , w o u l d y o u p l e a s e j u s t r e p e a t t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t tr a n s p ir e d b e t w e e n y o u a n d M s S w a n e p o e l a s b e s t a s y o u c a n i n t e r m s o f y o u r r e c o ll e c t io n o n t h e o c c a s io n w h e n y o u w e r e s ig n in g , y o u w e r e c o m p le t in g t h is e m p lo y m e n t fo r m w h ic h i s a t p a g e 4 0 8 i n t h e b u n d l e th a t h a s g o t y o u r s t a t e m e n t . J u s t t e l l m e h o w t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n h a p p e n e d . Is s h e t h e o n e t h a t g a v e y o u t h e f o r m ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e ’s t h e o n e w h o g a v e y o u t h e f o r m ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s . A r e y o u th e r e a lr e a d y t h e f o r m o r y o u a r e a b l e t o , y o u d o n ’ t n e e d t o s e e i t ? Yo u c a n a n s w e r q u e s ti o n s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : A h C h a ir m a n I’ m v e r y g o o d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , I k n o w t h e s t o r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , s h e g a v e y o u t h e f o r m a n d t h e n d i d y o u c o m p le t e it in fr o n t o f h e r o r d i d y o u g o a w a y t o c o m p l e te i t a n d b r o u g h t i t b a c k ? Page 108 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI MOTSOEN ENG: S h e g a v e m e t h e fo r m , C h a ir. W e d is c u s s e d t h e is s u e o f w r i ti n g S t a n d a r d 1 0 i n t h a t fo r m b e tw e e n m e a n d h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , h o w d i d t h a t c o m e a b o u t? I j u s t w a n t if y o u a r e a b l e to . I k n o w i t ’s a l o n g t i m e a g o . I f y o u a r e a b l e to r e m e m b e r s a y, a ft e r s h e h a d g iv e n m e th e f o r m , I r e a liz e d t h a t I w a s s u p p o s e d t o w r it e t h is a n d t h is a n d t h i s i s w h a t I s a i d a n d t h is is w h a t s h e s a i d . I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n . MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: 10 C h a ir, s h e w a s t o ld th a t I d o n ’ t h a v e M a tr ic . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w b e fo r e s h e g a v e y o u t h e f o r m , s h e k n e w that? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: S h e k n e w t h a t b e c a u s e w h e n t h e l a te O li fi r e w e n t t o Q w a Q w a t o e n g a g e m e o n t h e m a t te r, A l w y n h a s a lr e a d y t o l d O l if ir e . O l if ir e t o ld o th e r m e m b e r s o f th e S A B C . S o , w h e n I w e n t t h e r e , s h e k n e w a lr e a d y t h a t I d o n ’t h a v e t h e M a t r i c c e r ti f ic a t e a n d i n a n y c a s e C h a ir, s h e w a s j u s t a c l e r k . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t y o u r k n o w le d g e th a t s h e k n e w t h a t y o u d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic , i s t h a t b a s e d o n t h e f a c t t h a t th a t ’s w h a t s h e t o l d y o u in th e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? Is th a t b a s e d o n t h e fa c t t h a t y o u k n e w t h a t s h e w a s p r e s e n t w h e n s o m e b o d y t o l d s t a ff o r t o l d a c e r ta i n g r o u p o f p e o p l e t h a t y o u d id n ’t h a v e M a t r ic ? H o w d o y o u k n o w t h a t ? M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : N o , C h a ir I k n o w t h a t b e c a u s e s h e i s t h e Page 109 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 o n e w h o c a l le d m e t o s a y, c o m e a n d f il l th e s e fo r ms . I w a s t o ld t h a t y o u w e r e a p p o i n te d a n d y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a M a tr i c . T h a t’s w h y C h a ir m a n i n t h a t th e p r o c e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th a t ’s w h a t s h e s a i d , j a . MR HLAUDI MOTSOEN ENG: W e d i s c u s s e d t h e is s u e o f M a t r i c . A n d t h e n I s a i d t o h e r, n o s o m e o n e ju s t t o l d m e t h a t . W h y c a n ’ t y o u g o t o Pretoria to check if you combine your symbols you can’t get a pass? T h o s e w e r e d i s c u s s io n b e t w e e n m e a n d h e r. S h e s a i d , n o H la u d i i f th a t is t h e c a s e i t ’s f i n e . Yo u c a n w r it e w h a t y o u r e m e m b e r a n d t h e n m a y b e 10 w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k y o u w i ll c o m e a n d t e l l u s w h a t . A n d t h e n I w e n t C h a ir p e r s o n w i t h a n e m p l o y e e o f t h e S A B C to P r e to r i a to c h e c k . W h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e , t h e y t o l d u s , n o e v e n i f w e c o m b i n e d th e s y m b o ls y o u a r e n o t g e t t in g a p a s s . S o , I w e n t b a c k . I s a id , n o I d i d n ’ t g e t a p a s s . T h a t’s w h y s h e w r o te o u t s ta n d i n g M a t r ic b e c a u s e I c a m e b a c k a n d r e p o r t b a c k . Ye s , C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w, s o d id y o u s p e c i fic a l ly d is c u s s w i t h h e r ? D i d t h e t w o o f y o u s p e c i fi c a ll y d is c u s s w h a t y o u s h o u l d w r i t e o n t h e b lo c k w h e r e i t s a y s , h ig h e s t S t a n d a r d p a s s e d ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : S h e a d v is e d m e C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: And what was the advice? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h e a d v ic e , f ill t h i s f o r m . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : W h e n y o u c o m e b a c k , w e w il l d e a l w it h the form. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 110 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : W h ic h I c a m e b a c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : W h e n I c a m e b a c k t h a t ’s w h y s h e w r o t e t h a t o u ts t a n d i n g , C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o , w h e n y o u w e n t t o P r e to r i a y o u h a d a lr e a d y fi ll e d t h e f o r m a n d c o m p l e te d t h a t p a r t ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o w y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d , s h e s a i d f il l t h is f o r m . D i d s h e s a y, p u t 1 0 w h e r e i t s a y s h ig h e s t S t a n d a r d p a s s e d ? D id s h e 10 say that? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y in r e s p o n s e ? M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : I n m y r e s p o n s e C h a ir I s a i d , n o b u t I didn’t pass Standard 10. And then she said, but you are going to P r e t o r i a . W e w il l s o r t o u t t h e f o r m w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k . S o , e v e n w h e n I c a m e b a c k , I e x p la i n e d to h e r a s to s a y, y o u s e e I d i d n ’ t g o w e ll . S o , s h e s a id , n o i t’s fi n e . T h a t o u ts t a n d i n g , C h a ir t h a t s h e w r o t e c o n f ir m s w h a t I’ m s a y i n g . Ye s , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 N o w, d id I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c tl y th a t a t t h e ti m e y o u m a y h a v e b e e n 2 3 y e a r s o ld ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f y o u d o n ’ t w a n t t o d is c l o s e y o u r a g e M r M o ts o e n e n g . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : N o , n o i t ’s n o t a p r o b le m C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 111 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : I t ’s tr u e , C h a ir. I w a s 2 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e a b o u t 2 3 ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Now of course, when you are 23 you are young but y o u a r e n o t 1 0 y e a r s o l d , y o u ’r e n o t 1 5 y e a r s o l d . O k a y n o w, w h y d i d y o u n o t s a y t o h e r b u t I’ m n o t p r e p a r e d t o w r i t e s o m e t h i n g th a t i s f a ls e h e r e ? I h a v e n ’ t p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 . I t w o u ld b e w r o n g . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e i s s u e i s w h y I d i d n ’ t s a y t h a t is b e c a u s e w e a g r e e . H e r l e t te r s a i d c o m b in e t h e s y m b o ls . S o , 10 w h ic h m e a n s w h e n I c o m e b a c k r e p o r t t o h e r t o s a y, I d o n ’ t h a v e t h a t M a tr ic c e r ti f ic a te . She wrote outstanding. In my p e r s o n a l v ie w, o u t s t a n d i n g i s I d o n ’ t h a v e M a tr i c . I d i d n ’ t m a k e a n is s u e , C h a ir t o b e honest. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , I d id a n d m a k e a n i s s u e a b o u t i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y o u k n o w I t h i n k y o u a r e r ig h t in s a y i n g o u t s t a n d i n g M a tr i c c e r t i fic a t e y o u k n o w m a y b e s a id to m e a n M a tr ic is o u t s t a n d i n g o r t h e c e r t i fic a t e is n o t t h e r e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e n ’t p a s s e d M a tr ic . Yo u k n o w t h a t ’s p o s s ib l e . I t h i n k b a s e d o n th a t c e r t a in ly a f t e r 20 she w r i t te n that there must have been c e r ta i n ly a common u n d e r s t a n d in g b e t w e e n th e t w o o f y o u t h a t d e fi n it e ly y o u d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic . I’ m j u s t c o n c e r n e d th a t b e f o r e t h a t h a p p e n e d h e r e is a c le a r b l o c k w h e r e th e q u e s t io n is , w r i t e d o w n y o u r h i g h e s t S t a n d a r d p a s s e d a n d y o u k n o w t h a t y o u h a v e n o t p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 a n d y o u h a v e to l d h e r th a t y o u h a v e n o t p a s s e d S t a n d a r d 1 0 . O n e , o n w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d Page 112 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 m e s h e s a y s , w r i te th a t y o u h a v e , w r i t e S t a n d a r d 1 0 a n d y e t s h e k n o w s t h a t th a t w o u l d n o t b e tr u e . Yo u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t I ’ m l o o k in g a t ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n , a n d u n d e r s ta n d y o u c l e a r ly so. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : A n d th a t is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n a s I s a i d e v e n d u r i n g t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r, I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : To t a k e th a t a d v ic e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t w a s a w r o n g a d v i c e . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s a w r o n g a d v i c e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t w h e n I h a v e a d m it t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : W h a t I s a id I d o n ’ t a d m i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Is I l i e d f o r m e t o b e e m p l o y e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : B y th e S A B C . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s b e c a u s e a l l th o s e w h o m a d e d e c is i o n s a b o u t y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t k n e w t h a t y o u d id n o t h a v e M a tr ic . Yo u a r e d is c lo s i n g t h a t p a r t y o u h a v e in d i c a t e d . S o , w h a t w e h a v e o n y o u r v e r s io n is s i m p l y t h a t y o u w r o t e s o m e t h in g f a l s e o n th e e m p l o y m e n t, o n th e a p p lic a ti o n f o r e m p l o y m e n t fo r m a n d y o u m u s t ju s t t e l l m e i f I m is u n d e r s t a n d h e r e . My u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t y o u k n e w w h e n y o u w r o t e Page 113 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 it t h a t i t w a s n o t tr u e b u t y o u w e r e g iv e n a d v i c e . T h a t’s th e p o i n t y o u m a k e b y M r S w a n e p o e l , M s S w a n e p o e l t h a t w r it e t h is f a l s e i n fo r m a t i o n . E ff e c t iv e ly s h e d id n ’ t p u t i t t h a t w a y b u t t h e b o th o f y o u k n e w t h a t y o u had not passed Standard 10. M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e S t a n d a r d 1 0 i t w a s w e l lk n o w n a s I h a v e a l l u d e d p r e v i o u s ly. E v e n w h e n I w e n t t o h e r it w a s w e ll - k n o w n . Th e o n ly is s u e th a t i n my m i n d a f te r s o m e o n e t o l d m e i f m a y b e y o u c o m b i n e d y o u r s y m b o l y o u w i ll g e t a p a s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is t h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI MOTSO ENENG: I w r o te t h o s e s y m b o l s . E v e n t h o u g h s y m b o ls C h a ir n o r m a ll y y o u w i ll d o s e v e n s u b j e c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : S o , I w a s n o t e v e n r e m e m b e r in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: H o w m a n y s u b j e c ts . I ju s t w r o te th o s e s u b j e c ts b u t I k n e w I fa il e d H is t o r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR HLAUDI MOTSO ENENG: That when I was sure. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is w h y I w r o t e th a t o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h e s e o t h e r s I w a s n o t r e a ll y i f I c o m b in e d m a y b e I d i d v e r y w e ll . Page 114 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a i r m a n t h a t is t h e c a s e . CHAIRPERSON: At that time, was there a process where somebody w h o h a d b e e n w r i t in g s u p p le m e n t a r y e x a m i n a t io n s b e c a u s e I t h i n k y o u s a i d y o u h a d b e e n w r i ti n g s u p p l e m e n t a r y e x a m i n a t io n s . W a s t h e r e a process within th e Department of E d u c a ti o n in terms of w h ic h s o m e b o d y in t h a t p o s i ti o n c o u ld g o t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d s a y t o t h e m , lo o k w h a t I h a v e , l o o k a t t h e s y m b o l s I h a v e a c h ie v e d ? H a v e I n o t n o w p a s s e d t o b e e li g i b le to b e g iv e n a M a t r ic c e r ti fi c a t e ? W a s th e r e a 10 p r o c e s s li k e t h a t t h a t y o u k n e w a b o u t ? W h e r e d id t h is id e a c o m e f r o m t h a t i f y o u c o m b i n e t h e s y m b o ls y o u c o u l d g e t a c e r ti fi c a t e ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : I w a s t o ld b y m y l a d y p r i n c i p a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , to s a y n o w h a t y o u n e e d t o d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u c a n c o m e t o s c h o o l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: A n d t h e n w e c a n w o r k th a t p r o c e s s a n d c h e c k w i t h th e D e p a r t m e n t o f E d u c a t i o n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : B u t a t t h a t ti m e b e c a u s e I w a s a ls o coming to Johannesburg. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI MOTSOEN ENG: It w a s e a s ie r f o r m e . I ’ m c o m i n g t o J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d t h e n I t o o k m y c o l le a g u e s a n d t h e n w e w e n t a n d Page 115 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 check. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: A n d t h e n t h e y c o n f ir m e d t h a t I d id n o t p a s s M a tr ic . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u . D o y o u , i s M s S w a n e p o e l s t il l a v a i la b le ? Is s h e g o i n g t o b e c a ll e d t o t a lk a b o u t t h e a d v ic e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir, t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s a r e lo o k i n g in t o t h a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th e y m u s t t r y a n d s e e i f th e y c a n f i n d h e r. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , t h a t s h e c a n t e s ti fy a b o u t t h e a d v ic e t h a t s h e m a y have given Mr Motsoeneng. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , b u t e x c e p t t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t c o m e s c lo s e to th a t is t h a t l e t te r t h a t y o u r e a d w h e r e s h e s a y s , I s a i d y o u j u s t p u t it in . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t t h e a d v ic e a s p e c t d o e s n ’ t c o m e o u t c le a r ly i n t h e le t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r M o ts o e n e n g . Ye s , you may continue. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . C h a ir, j u s t Page 116 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 f o r c o m p l e t e n e s s s a k e m a y b e ju s t w h e r e t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r d e a ls w i t h t h is is s u e C h a ir, is i n b u n d l e C C 2 7 a t p a g e s 2 9 5 u p t o , I th in k i t e n d s a t p a g e 2 9 8 y e s . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D o y o u w a n t t o a s k M r M o t s o e n e n g to g e t it ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Mr M o ts o e n e n g , n e x t t o y o u o n y o u r l e f thand side. Have you? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : S o r r y, C h a ir p e r s o n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : D o y o u m in d i f I j u s t b e c a u s e I k n o w a l l 10 t h is ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o i f y o u a r e c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t’s f in e . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : N o , C h a ir m a n . Ye s , I k n o w e v e r y t h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o , n o i f y o u a r e c o m f o r t a b l e . J a , b u t if i t a n y s t a g e y o u t h in k y o u w a n t to lo o k a t a d o c u m e n t j u s t s a y s o . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t le t m e g e t t o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To t h a t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t p a g e 2 9 5 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 9 6 , C h a ir. I n f a c t , i t s ta r ts fr o m 2 9 5 b u t t h e a c t u a l p o in t th a t y o u a r e d e a l i n g w i t h , w i th M r M o ts o e n e n g n o w is at page 296. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u . Ar e y o u t h e r e , C h a ir ? H a v e Page 117 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 y o u f o u n d it ? O h , t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I f o u n d t h e p a g e , j a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Mr M o t s o e n e n g , ju s t fo r u s t o c o m p l e te t h i s i s s u e a n d u n d e r s ta n d e x a c t ly w h a t i s i t t h a t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r a c tu a l ly s a id . I f I m a y r e a d f r o m p a r a g r a p h 6 . 1 .3 . 2 2 a t p a g e 2 9 6 . I n t h e p r e c e d in g p a r a g r a p h s h e h a d li s t e d t h e s y m b o ls a s t h e y a r e r e fl e c t e d a t p a g e 4 0 8 . A n d t h e n s h e s a y s , On th e a p p li c a t io n form that Mr M o ts o e n e n g c o m p le t e d , h e o n l y n o t e d fi v e s u b j e c t s c o m p le t e d a n d n o t t h e 10 u s u a l s i x . D u r i n g t h e i n te r v i e w, M r M o ts o e n e n g a d m i t t e d f a ls i fy i n g h is M a t r ic q u a li fi c a t io n a n d b la m e d a M s S w a n e p o e l w h o m h e s a i d g a v e h i m t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r m t o f il l i n a n y th i n g . I n o t h e r w o r d s , t o m a k e u p t h e s y m b o l s fr o m t h e t o p o f h i s h e a d w h ic h h e d id . W i th r e g a r d t o t h e M a tr ic c e r t if ic a te t h e f o r m s a y s o u ts t a n d i n g g i v i n g th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e c e r t if ic a te e x i s ts a n d w o u ld b e s u b m i t t e d i n d u e c o u r s e . A c o p y o f a tr a n s c r ip t o f t h e i n te r v i e w h e ld w i th M r M o ts o e n e n g o n 1 9 J u l y 2 0 1 3 w i t h m e is a n n e x t o t h e r e p o r t . B e lo w i s a n e x t r a c t f r o m t h e tr a n s c r ip t . 20 A d v oc a t e M a d o n s e l a : B u t y o u k n e w. Yo u a r e s a y i n g t o m e y o u k n e w t h e n t h a t y o u h a d f a il e d . S o , y o u b e c a u s e w h e n y o u p u t t h e s y m b o ls y o u k n e w t h a t y o u h a d n ’ t fo u n d o r n e v e r s e e n th e m a n y w h e r e y o u w e r e m a k i n g th e m u p . S o , I’ m a s k in g th a t i n r e tr o s p e c t . D o y o u t h in k y o u s h o u l d h a v e m a d e up the symbols? Now that you are older and you are not 23. Page 118 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M r M o t s oe n e n g : From me, for now because I do u n d e r s t a n d a l l th e i s s u e s . I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d to b e h o n e s t . I f I w a s , n o w I w a s c l e a r i n m y m i n d . L i k e n o w I k n o w w h a t is w r o n g , w h a t is r ig h t . I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o p u t i t b u t t h e r e t h e y s a i d , n o p u t it . B u t w h a t i s i m p o r t a n t f o r m e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r is e v e r y b o d y k n e w a n d e v e n w h e n I p u t t h e r e I s a id t o t h e l a d y, I’ m n o t s u r e a b o u t m y s y m b o l s . A n d w h y I w a s n o t s u r e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r is b e c a u s e I g o S A P y o u k n o w. I r e m e m b e r o k a y i n E n g l is h I t h i n k i t w a s E b e c a u s e i t w a s y o u 10 k n o w a ft e r i t w a s 1 9 9 5 . I f y o u c h e c k t h e r e , w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t 1 9 9 1 . N o w i t w a s 1 9 9 5 a n d fo r m e I h a d t o e v e n g o . I w a s s u p p o s e d to g o to s c h o o l to c h e c k . S o m e o n e s a i d , n o , n o , n o . Yo u k n o w w h a t y o u n e e d to d o , j u s t g o t o P r e t o r i a . A t th a t ti m e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r t a x i g o a n d c h e c k . T h e n s a i d , n o y o u f a i l . I w e n t t h a t o n e a n d p e o p le w e a r e p u t t in g t h is P u b li c P r o t e c t o r. I k n o w i t i s Si p h u m e l e l e a n d C h a r l o t t e a n d th e s e p e o p l e w h e n S A B C w e r e c h a r g in g m e th e y w e r e m y w i t n e s s e s . Mr Madiba: I th i n k I w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly. Yo u s a y y o u w e r e a s k e d b y t h e S A B C t o p u t in th o s e 20 f o r m s , I m e a n t o p u t in th o s e a n d A d v o c a t e M a d o n s e l a t o m a k e u p t h e s y m b o ls ? M r M a d i b a to m a k e o f th e s y m b o ls . Yo u r e c a ll w h o s a i d t h a t to y o u a n d y o u r a n s w e r w a s M a r i e S w a n e p o e l . A n d Mr M a d ib a , M a r i e S w a n e p o e l a n d t h e a n s w e r is , y e s . S o , t h is is t h e p o r ti o n o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r t h a t y o u s a y y o u c h a ll e n g e a s n o t b e i n g c o r r e c t ; th e f i n d in g . Page 119 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . Ye s , C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. MR HLAUDI MOTSO ENENG: Can I? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u w a n t t o a d d s o m e t h i n g ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h r o u g h y o u , C h a ir I t h i n k t h is g o e s b a c k t o w h a t I w a s s a y i n g w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h i s is s u e o f P u b li c P r o te c t o r. I s a i d I d i d n ’ t l i e a b o u t M a tr ic b u t w h e n s h e w a s s a y i n g l o o k i n g b a c k 2 3 10 y e a r s b e c a u s e p e o p le w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a l l t h e s e i s s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t, h e h a s l i e d a b o u t M a tr i c a n d s o o n . I s a i d b u t lo o k i n g b a c k c h e c k i n g I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o t a k e t h is a d v ic e fr o m M a r i e S w a n e p o e l w h ic h I s ti ll b e l ie v e I w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o ta k e t h a t a d v i c e b u t I w a s n o t a d m it t in g t h a t I l ie d t o b e e m p l o y e d a t th e S A B C . I n a n y c a s e , I’ m t h e o n e w h o c o n f e s s e d t o t h e S A B C t o m y e m p l o y e r t h a t I d o n ’t h a v e a M a tr ic . A n d a ls o , th e i s s u e is w h y t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r d i d n ’ t g o a n d call th o s e people who employed me or including C h a ir Marie S w a n e p o e l . A l t h o u g h , M a r i e S w a n e p o e l w a s n o t m y e m p l o y e r. W h e n I w e n t th e r e , I w a s a lr e a d y e m p l o y e d b y t h e S A B C . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Yo u s e e I t h i n k b e c a u s e th a t fo r m s a y s a p p lic a ti o n f o r e m p lo y m e n t th e f o r m w h ic h w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t i t g iv e s t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t t h a t is w h e n y o u w e r e a p p l y i n g f o r e m p l o y m e n t b u t y o u a r e s a y in g w h e n y o u f il l e d t h e f o r m y o u h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a p p o i n t e d a s I u n d e r s ta n d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. I d i d n o t e v e n a p p ly. Page 120 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w a s h e a d h u n te d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: T h e y c a tc h t h e fis h t h a t t h e y w e r e lo o k i n g f o r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . S o - s o th e s e fo r m s th a t a p p l ic a ti o n f o r e m p l o y m e n t a n d t h e n s o m e b o d y s a y s o k a y t h i s p e r s o n a p p ly in g f o r e m p l o y m e n t is b e in g a s k e d w h a t i s y o u r h i g h e s t s t a n d a r d t h a t y o u h a v e p a s s e d a n d th is p e r s o n s a y s S t a n d a r d 1 0 , b u t w e k n o w i n t h i s r o o m 10 t h a t y o u h a v e m a d e it c l e a r t h a t t h a t w a s n o t t h e tr u e p o s i ti o n . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e . S o i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t w h a t e v e r p o i n t y o u w a n t t o m a k e in s o f a r a s t h e f il li n g i n o f t h a t f o r m i n r e g a r d t o s a y in g S t a n d a r d 1 0 i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t w h a t e v e r y o u m a y b e w a n ti n g to s a y w o u ld b e d i r e c t e d a t s a y in g t h a t y o u - y o u a c c e p t th a t w h a t y o u w r o t e d o w n w h e n y o u s a i d S t a n d a r d 1 0 w a s fa l s e b u t y o u a r e s i m p l y s a y in g t h e r e is a n e x p l a n a t io n h o w a n d w h y y o u c a m e t o w r i t e in f o r m a t io n t h a t was fa ls e a n d t h e e x p l a n a ti o n is the d is c u s s i o n y o u h a d w i th Ms Swanepoel and the advice that you say she gave you and the - the 20 a d v ic e a m o u n t e d to s a y i n g e v e n t h o u g h y o u - w e k n o w t h a t y o u d o n o t have - you have not passed Standard 10 write down Standard 10 and t h e r e w a s a n u n d e r s t a n d in g a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g t o g o t o P r e to r i a a n d s e e w h e t h e r a s y o u p u t i t i f t h e y c o m b in e a ll th e s y m b o ls t h a t y o u h a d o b t a i n e d w h e n y o u w e r e w r i ti n g s u p p l e m e n t a r y e x a m i n a t io n s t h a t w o u l d n o t g iv e y o u a p a s s f o r M a tr ic . Page 121 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 T h a t - t h a t s e e m s t o m e t h e u p s h o t o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g . It d o e s n o t s e e m t o m e t h a t y o u c a n d e n y t h a t w r i ti n g M a tr i c o n th e f o r m w a s f a ls e b u t w h a t y o u - w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g is d o n o t i g n o r e t h e c o n te x t i n w h ic h t h a t h a p p e n e d . D o n o t i g n o r e th e f a c t th a t I w a s g iv e n a d v ic e a n d d o n o t i g n o r e t h e f a c t th a t e v e r y o n e k n e w I d i d n o t h a v e M a tr ic a n d d o n o t i g n o r e t h e f a c t t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o g o t o P r e t o r i a t o s e e w h e th e r w h e n th e y c o m b i n e a ll m y s y m b o l s t h e r e s u l t w o u l d n o t b e t h a t I h a v e p a s s e d . T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d in g . I s - is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. n o w. Thank you. T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . M r M o ts o e n e n g m a y b e l e t u s g o b a c k t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t In fa c t l e t u s g o - w e a r e s ti l l d e a li n g w i t h y o u r c a r e e r p r o g r e s s i o n a n d t h e n - t h e n w e d e c id e d t o d e a l w i th t h i s i s s u e . Yo u w e r e a t a p o in t w h e n y o u w e r e t e l li n g t h e C h a i r p e r s o n th a t t h e n y o u w e r e t h e n e m p l o y e d a s - a s a - a s a jo u r n a lis t . A m I c o r r e c t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . From there then could - could you t h e n c o n t i n u e fr o m - fr o m w h e r e y o u le f t o ff ? 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s a tr a i n e e jo u r n a li s t w h e n I w a s e m p lo y e d a t th e S A B C a n d I g r e w w i th in t h e S A B C . I b e c a m e a - a jo u r n a l is t . I b e c a m e a p r o d u c e r. I b e c a m e a n E x e c u t iv e P r o d u c e r. I b e c a m e a S p e c i a l is t P r o d u c e r. I b e c a m e - I w a s a ls o a t a c e r ta i n p o in t A c ti n g a s R e g i o n a l E d i t o r Fr e e S t a te a n d Northern Cape. Page 122 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 I w a s a p p o i n t e d t o b e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r i n t h e O ff ic e o f t h e GCO. I w a s a p p o in t e d t o b e G r o u p E x e c u tiv e f o r S t a k e h o ld e r a n d P r o v i n c e s o u ts i d e n o w th e G C O . I a ls o d e a l t w i t h t h e is s u e o f th e c o m m u n ic a ti o n o f t h e - o f th e b o a r d a n d t h a t is w h e r e I m o v e d t o b e c o m e t h e A c ti n g C O O o f th e S A B C . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k t h a t i s my p r o fi le . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: In short. 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I n s h o r t , y e s a n d th e n - a n d t h e n o n e b i t w a s w h e n t h e n a ft e r A c t i n g a s C O O th e n y o u b e c a m e th e C O O . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . I … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: S o r r y, s o r r y C h a ir. I became the COO. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d - c o u l d y o u j u s t te ll t h e C h a ir how - how was that process handled? 20 Yo u h a d b e e n a c ti n g . D r N g u b a n e w h o t e s ti f ie d y e s te r d a y h a d - w e h a d t a k e n D r N g u b a n e t h r o u g h le t t e r - a l e tt e r fr o m th e M in is t e r w h e n - w h e n y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d t o a c t a s - a s C O O . Yo u w o u ld r e c a l l t h a t M i n is te r D in a P u l e a p p r o v e d t h a t - t h a t a c t in g a p p o i n t m e n t . T h e n fr o m t h e n - ( i n d i s t i n c t) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h e n f r o m t h e n D r N g u b a n e t e s t if i e d th a t Page 123 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 h e t h e n l e f t th e S A B C a n d y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d a ft e r h e h a d l e ft t h e S A B C . C o u l d y o u j u s t ta k e - I k n o w th e - t h e i s s u e o f y o u r a p p o in t m e n t h a s - h a s b e e n - h a s b e e n s u b j e c t e d t o li t ig a ti o n a n d t h e r e a r e ju d g m e n t s t h a t r e l a te t o th a t b u t c a n y o u j u s t i n y o u r o w n w o r d s b r i e fl y t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o l lo w e d b e fo r e y o u w e r e appointed the COO of the SABC. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir I d o n o t th in k I c a n d e a l w i t h t h a t o n e b e c a u s e i t is th e b o a r d i s s u e w h o t o o k t h a t d e c is i o n . I may say that … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I d i d r a is e th e i s s u e a b o u t m e r a i s i n g m o r e t h a n - y o u k n o w a c ti n g m o r e t h a n t w o y e a r s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A s C O O . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d n o t m e a l o n e a ls o . As t h e A c ti n g C O O . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o t m e a lo n e . I - I w a s s a y in g b u t if I a m t h i s f is h th a t y o u w a n t I m e a n w h y c a n y o u n o t - y o u m o v e o n . I m e a n I c a n n o t a c t fo r m o r e t h a n tw o y e a r s b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w 20 whether I am going backwards or I am … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I am going forward … CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d - a n d I a ls o w r o t e a l e t t e r C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 124 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I m ust declare that. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w r o t e a l e t te r t o I th in k t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d t o s a y h e r e is m y s i t u a t i o n . I am unhappy about this situation. I cannot act forever … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B u t th e a p p o i n t m e n t a n d t h e process … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w a s n o t p a r t y, y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O f c o u r s e w h a t y o u w o u l d b e a b l e t o d o is t o a s k - t o a n s w e r s p e c i fi c q u e s ti o n s i n r e g a r d t o th a t p r o c e s s w h e r e y o u do have knowledge of what happened but you are right to say in fact y o u d i d n o t a p p o in t y o u r s e l f . T h o s e w h o a p p o in t e d y o u a r e t h e o n e s w h o c a n a n s w e r c e r t a i n q u e s ti o n s b u t t h e r e w o u l d b e c e r t a i n th i n g s t h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t . H o w y o u c a m e t o b e a p p o i n te d … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 B u t m a y b e M s N o r m a n c a n s p e c i fi c q u e s t io n s t o y o u … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t y o u k n o w y o u w o u ld s a y. W h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w y o u w o u l d s a y y o u d o n o t k n o w. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u . Yo u w o u ld h a v e a p p li e d fo r t h a t p o s i ti o n . A m I c o r r e c t? Page 125 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I d i d n o t a p p l y C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: fir s t q u e s ti o n . Ye s , y e s a n d t h is is - w e g o b a c k t o m y S o if y o u d i d n o t a p p l y w a s i t s i m p l y o ff e r e d t o y o u - t h a t p o s i ti o n ? Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e w e s h o u ld b e c a u s e - I a m s o r r y M s N o r m a n … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e h e d id s a y h e w r o te a l e t te r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w r o te - y o u s a id y o u w r o t e a l e tt e r I a s s u m e t o t h e b o a r d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? W h e r e y o u w e r e c o m p l a i n i n g t h a t y o u w e r e e ffe c tiv e l y c o m p la in i n g o r e x p r e s s i n g c o n c e r n t h a t y o u h a d b e e n a c ti n g f o r a l o n g t i m e . T h e r e is u n c e r ta i n t y. Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u a r e c o m i n g o r g o i n g . Is th a t r i g h t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D i d th e b o a r d - w a s t h e - a l e t t e r a d d r e s s e d t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d o r y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : L e t m e s a y C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: To t h e C h a i r b u t t h e C h a ir r e p r e s e n ts t h e B o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , i t w a s a d d r e s s e d … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : ( In t e r v e n e s ) y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y o u m e a n t f o r th e b o a r d ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . Page 126 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t fo r h i m a l o n e . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D i d t h e y r e s p o n d t o t h e l e t te r e i th e r i n w r i ti n g o r v e r b a l ly a n d i f th e y d i d w h a t w a s t h e ir r e s p o n s e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: N o C h a ir. What I know there w e r e s o m e d i s c u s s io n s b e c a u s e t h o s e a r e m i n u t e s o f t h e S A B C w h e r e I was … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w e r e d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h i n th e b o a r d ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 W it h i n th e - w it h in th e b o a r d a n d t h e n th e y d is c u s s e d th e m a t t e r a n d I th in k t h e y v o t e d a m o n g s t t h e m s e l v e s . T h e r e is s o m e o f t h e m d is a g r e e d w i t h t h e p r o c e s s a n d s o o n a n d s o o n C h a ir, y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d - d id y o u - w e r e - w e r e y o u p r e s e n t w h e n th o s e w h e n y o u r - w h e n th o s e d is c u s s io n s t o o k p l a c e i n t h e - i n t h e b o a r d m e e ti n g s o r w e r e y o u a s k e d to r e c u s e y o u r s e l f o r a n y t h in g l ik e t h a t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w a s n o t p r e s e n t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t p r e s e n t e a c h ti m e t h e y d is c u s s e d ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t y o u - y o u k n e w t h a t in t h a t m e e ti n g t h e y w i ll 20 b e h a v i n g a d is c u s s i o n t h a t c o n c e r n s t h e - t h a t c o n c e r n e d y o u o r t h e f e e li n g o f th e p o s i ti o n ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: No the - the Chair did not e x p l a i n t o m e t h a t s h e i s g o i n g t o r a is e t h e is s u e . T h e y a r e g o in g t o d is c u s s th e m a t t e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e d id n o t s a y t h a t t o y o u ? Page 127 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : ( In t e r v e n e s ) y e s . CHAIRPERSON: S o th e s e - t h e s e d i s c u s s io n s a t a c e r ta in s t a g e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n m u s t h a v e c o m e b a c k t o y o u a ft e r t h o s e d i s c u s s io n s a n d a n d t o l d y o u s o m e th i n g o r d i d h e c o m e b a c k to y o u a n d s a y I d i d r e c e i v e y o u r l e t t e r a n d s i n c e th e n w e h a v e h a d s o m e d is c u s s i o n s in t h e b o a r d a n d th is i s w h a t w e p r o p o s e t o d o ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir. I think - I think through HR if I - I do not remember well who … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s , b u t w h a t I k n o w t h a t I - I r e c e i v e d a l e t te r f r o m - fr o m H R b u t t h e l e t t e r w a s s ig n e d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f - o f th e B o a r d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B u t y o u k n o w S A B C is S A B C C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ev e r y t h i n g a lr e a d y a l l o v e r … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I n t h e b o a r d m e e ti n g t h i s t i m e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: T h is i s w h a t h a p p e n e d . How m a n y p e o p l e v o te d ? I t - i t w a s - I m e a n i t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u - y o u m e a n b e f o r e y o u r e c e iv e d t h e le t t e r you - you knew what had happened? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: P e o p le w e r e - w e r e a l r e a d y Page 128 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t a lk in g a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d - a n d t h e ta lk w a s - w a s t h e t a lk th a t y o u h a d been appointed by the board? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I - I t h i n k s o C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e t a lk w a s th a t th e r e w e r e d iv is io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e r e w e r e d iv i s i o n s w i t h i n th e b o a r d ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s a m o n g s t t h e b o a r d . 10 CHAIRPERSON: About - about your - your appointment? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a n d t h e n y o u r e c e iv e d a l e tt e r. w a s s i g n e d b y t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d t h e n . Yo u s a i d t h a t Who was the C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d a t t h e ti m e … MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e D r N g u b a n e s a i d h e h a d l e f t a lr e a d y b y then? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Hm, hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t p r o fe s s o r … ? 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I th i n k . CHAIRPERSON: Who was it? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : M a y b e C h a i r l e t m e - t h e l e t te r - I r e c e i v e d a l e t te r fr o m th e - t h e H R b e c a u s e n o r m a l ly t h e - H R i s t h e custodian … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 129 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Of the process of the SABC … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: But I - I want to withdraw the C h a ir p e r s o n s ig n in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t ( i n te r v e n e s ) ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . I e x p e c t t h a t o n e w h e t h e r it w a s th e - w h e t h e r i t w a s H R o r w h o s i g n e d i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t w a s a l e t te r t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d t h a t w a s o n th e H R l e t t e r h e a d o r s o m e t h in g ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , i t - S A B C l e t t e r h e a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S A B C l e tt e r h e a d b u t H u m a n R e s o u r c e s D e p a r t m e n t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . Th e y - n o r m a ll y a f t e r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t t h e y w il l c a l l y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u w il l e n g a g e w i th H R . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t is t h e le t t e r th a t y o u g o t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d w a s th e le t t e r s a y i n g t h e b o a r d h a s d e c i d e d t o a p p o i n t y o u a s C O O o f - G r o u p C O O o f th e S A B C i n e ff e c t ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n I - I w il l h a v e t o check. Page 130 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B e c a u s e I d o n o t w a n t to t a lk a b o u t is s u e s a n d t h e n I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h e c o n te n t o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t y e s I r e c e iv e d t h e l e tt e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja … MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: B u t o b v io u s ly y o u - y o u r e m e m b e r th e g is t o f w h a t t h is le t t e r s a i d ? I w o u ld i m a g i n e . 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O r y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t t h e g i s t w a s o f th e m e s s a g e i t w a s g iv e n y o u ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n y o u h e a r th a t y o u a r e C O O o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I w a s r e a lly e x c i te d . These o th e r m a tt e r s t h e y d i d n o t ( l a u g h i n g ) . W h a t - w h a t I k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n is th e p r o c e s s w i ll b e th e b o a r d t h e y w il l n e e d th e a p p r o v a l f r o m t h e s h a r e h o l d e r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: That process I knew that it went - i t w e n t t h r o u g h b e c a u s e th e y c o u l d n o t a p p o i n t m e w it h o u t t h e a p p r o v a l o f th e s h a r e h o l d e r. Page 131 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t w h a t I a m t r y in g t o - t o u n d e r s t a n d is t o d is t in g u i s h is w h a t y o u h e a r d in t h e g r a p e v in e a s i t w e r e a s t o w h a t t h e b o a r d h a d d e c i d e d a n d th a t th e r e w e r e d iv i s i o n s a n d s o o n a n d w h a t w a s w r i t t e n i n b l a c k a n d w h i t e . S o I a m tr y in g t o - I - I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u d id h e a r fr o m th e g r a p e v i n e t h a t t h e b o a r d h a d a p p o in t e d y o u a n d t h a t t h e r e w e r e d iv is i o n s w i t h i n th e b o a r d a b o u t t h e is s u e b u t I a m tr y i n g t o e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r t h e l e tt e r t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t i s t h e o ffic i a l l e t te r t h a t c o n v e y e d to y o u t h e d e c is i o n o f t h e b o a r d to a p p o i n t you. 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th e o n e ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t y o u s a y o n c e y o u h a d t h i s w h a t h a p p e n e d ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I w a s t h i n k in g o f tr a n s f o r m i n g S o u th A fr ic a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Es p e c i a l ly t h e S A B C . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 20 That it s h o u ld change e s p e c i a l ly C h a ir I - I t h i n k e v e r y b o d y k n o w s m y i m p r e s s i o n is c o n t e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o - s o t h i s l e tt e r t o l d y o u a b o u t th e d e c i s i o n o f t h e b o a r d to a p p o i n t y o u a s C O O o f S A B C b u t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s o r t h e l e t te r d i d s a y th a t t h i s w a s s u b j e c t t o t h e c o n c u r r e n c e o r a p p r o v a l o f th e s h a r e h o l d e r ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o C h a ir. W h e n I r e c e iv e d t h e Page 132 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 le t t e r a t th a t ti m e I th i n k th e M in is t e r h a s a lr e a d y a p p r o v e d t h e … CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w h o l e is s u e w a s f in a lis e d ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s w a s fi n a li s e d … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B e c a u s e w h e n I r e c e iv e d t h e le t t e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Now we were engaging with HR ju s t t o f i n a lis e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u - y o u k n o w th e p a c k a g e o f t h e p o s i t io n a n d s o o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d s o o n y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o y o u d i d n o t a p p ly f o r a p p o i n t m e n t to t h i s p o s i ti o n o f C O O a s s u c h b u t w h a t y o u d i d w a s t o c o m p l a i n a b o u t h o w lo n g y o u h a d b e e n a c t i n g in t h e p o s i t io n . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d n o b o d y e v e r a s k e d y o u to a - t o a p p l y f o r th e p o s i ti o n - to fi ll in f o r m s o r a n y t h i n g li k e t h a t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o - n o C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t a d v e r tis e th e p o s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id n o t a d v e r ti s e t h e p o s t ? Page 133 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. D o y o u w a n t to ta k e i t f r o m t h e r e Ms Norman? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. W e h a d t h e r e i s - i f I m a y j u s t r e fe r C h a ir t o t h e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e a t p a g e 2 - 1 6 . R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e a t p a g e 2 - 1 - t h e r e i s a n a d v e r t th a t r e la t e s to t h e C h i e f O p e r a ti n g O ff ic e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e b e in g E X H I B I T 3 2 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 3 2 . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: EXHIBIT 32. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: What page? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: At page 2-1-6. CHAIRPERSON: 2-1-6? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Through you Chair which bundle? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h s o r r y. T h e o n e - E X H I B I T … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - b u t y o u m u s t r e m e m b e r th a t … 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I beg … CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m u s t r e m e m b e r t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g s a i d h e m i g h t n o t n e e d to h a v e a l o o k a t … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To r e f e r y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a . S o - s o ju s t a s k h i m t h e q u e s ti o n . I f h e h a s a p r o b le m h e w i ll t e l l y o u . Page 134 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D o n o t a s k h i m t o l o o k fo r … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To - t o l o o k fo r … CHAIRPERSON: Pages and documents, yes. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: bundle. Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h i s i s r e fe r e n c e I t i s E X H I B I T C C 3 2 a t p a g e 2 - 1 - 6 . T h is i s a n a d v e r t f o r t h e p o s i ti o n o f C h i e f O p e r a t io n s O ff i c e r. W e - w e r e f e r r e d t o th is a d v e r t y e s t e r d a y w h e n w e w e r e d e a li n g w it h t h e e v i d e n c e o f D r N g u b a n e a n d t h e c lo s i n g d a t e f o r a p p lic a ti o n s w a s 1 5 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 . 10 Were you a w a r e a t t h i s p o in t t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a d v e r t f o r t h i s p o s i ti o n o f th e Coo? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir t h r o u g h y o u - y o u k n o w t h a t p o s it i o n o f C O O i t h a s b e e n g o in g u p a n d d o w n b e c a u s e o f t h e t h e p r e v i o u s p e r s o n w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o o c c u p y t h e p o s i ti o n s a d v e r t is in g a n d t h e n - n o t a d v e r t is i n g b e c a u s e h e w e n t t o c o u r t . So t h e r e w e r e - t h e r e - th e r e w e r e m a n y is s u e s th e r e r e a ll y. I t h i n k a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e S A B C s a i d w e a r e g o i n g t o a d v e r ti s e . W e w i t h d r a w - w it h d r a w n th e a p p l ic a t i o n - t h e a d v e r t - t h e advert because of the court matters. 20 I - I saw the - the advert but r e a l ly I c a n n o t a t t e s t b e c a u s e th e r e w e r e - I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e m o r e t h a n three adverts. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t d i ffe r e n t s ta g e s ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A t d i ff e r e n t s t a g e s a n d I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h o n e a t th a t ti m e w h e n I A c ti n g C O O … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 135 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: That went - went through. CHAIRPERSON: But of … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t c a n h e l p o f c o u r s e is f o r y o u t o c o n fir m t h e d a t e w i t h e ff e c t fr o m w h ic h y o u r a p p o in t m e n t s t a r te d … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I a m s u r e y o u c a n n o t fo r g e t t h a t d a te . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 N o t a t a l l C h a ir p e r s o n . The a c ti n g o n e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h e p e r m a n e n t o n e a s C O O . T h a t is t h e o n e w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: That one … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u r e m e m b e r th e a c t in g o n e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Th a t - th e a c t in g one C h a ir p e r s o n I - I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll . T h i s ( in d is ti n c t) h a s b e e n c a u g h t in t h e ( in d is ti n c t) . S o m e ti m e s I w a n t t o j u s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 20 B u t I t h in k i t w a s a r o u n d J u l y 2 0 1 4 C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: The permanent appointment? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e a c t in g o n e w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : 2 0 11 in N o v e m b e r … Page 136 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O n th e 1 8 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , th a n k y o u . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: 10 S o - s o th e - t h e p e r m a n e n t a p p o in t m e n t y o u s a y w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r o u n d … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u ly. CHAIRPERSON: Would have been in 2014? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h i s a d v e r t i s d a t e d o r t h e c l o s i n g d a t e … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e c l o s i n g d a te . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is g iv e n d a te a s 1 5 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 C h a ir - C h a ir, m a y I j u s t r e f e r y o u to t h e R e f e r e n c e B u n d le C C 3 2 p a g e 2 2 6 . T h a t i s w h e r e M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s c o n fir m a t io n o f a p p o in t m e n t l e t te r t o th e C O O p o s i ti o n i s . P a g e 2 - 2 - 6 , 2 - 2 - 7 , 2 - 2 - 8 a n d t h e n fr o m 2 - 2 - 9 t h e r e is a c o p y o f h i s c o n tr a c t w i t h t h e SABC. C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r ti n g a t 2 - 2 - 7 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 - 2 - 6 C h a ir. Page 137 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 CHAIRPERSON: 2-2-6? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I h a v e g o t - t h a t i s 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 . T h a t is a l e t te r o f c o n fir m a t io n o f h i s a p p o i n t m e n t … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: As COO, ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t - s o t h a t - t h a t is 8 J u l y. T h e le t t e r i s 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 0 1 4 , y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D o e s i t s a y - o h , i t s a y s c o m m e n c e m e n t d a te s a m e d a t e 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 a n d i t is f o r a f ix e d t e r m u p t o 3 0 J u n e 2 0 1 9 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s t h a t s o u n d r i g h t M r - d o e s i t s o u n d c o r r e c t th a t those dates? 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d - a n d a t p a g e 2 - 2 - 8 s ir - C h a ir y o u w o u l d fi n d Mr M o ts o e n e n g ’s f u l l n a m e s a n d is a c c e p t a n c e o f t h e t e r m s a n d c o n d it i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . H e s i g n e d o n 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 . Page 138 of 174 T h a t is t h e s a m e 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 d a t e to a c c e p t t h e o ff e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S u b j e c t t o t h e a b o v e t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s , ja . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . T h e n m a y b e b e f o r e w e d e a l w i t h y o u r e r a a s t h e C O O o f th e S A B C b e c a u s e w e a r e g o in g to h a v e t o r e l a te t o c e r t a i n mi n u te s t h e r e . Maybe we s h o u l d j u s t g o b a c k t o t h e s ta t e m e n t s o t h a t w e c a n c o n ti n u e fr o m t h e r e b e f o r e w e d e a l w i t h th a t e r a b e c a u s e i t is g o i n g t o r e la t e t o s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e th a t h a v e i m p lic a t e d y o u a s y o u a r e a w a r e w h e r e w e h a d w r i t t e n 10 o r i s s u e - w h e r e t h e C o m m i s s io n h a d is s u e d 3 .3 N o ti c e s to y o u . A r e y o u h a p p y i f y o u d o t h a t? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Can you just go back to page 5 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t? CHAIRPERSON: Oh … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u - you not pursuing anything on th a t a d v e r t is e m e n t? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e r e is - th e r e is a 20 lo t th a t w e n e e d to d e a l w i th . T h e r e is a l o t o f li ti g a ti o n t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : R e l a te s t o th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir b u t I a m … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 139 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t t h i n k in g b e c a u s e i t w i ll … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Once we start with it then we must go b a c k to t h e … CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t ic e s a s w e ll . Ye s , t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So we must go to what page? 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o t b a c k t o - t h a t i s C C 3 0 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And what page? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A t p a g e 5 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w e a r e g o i n g b a c k t o h is s t a t e m e n t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To h is s t a t e m e n t y e s . CHAIRPERSON: B e f o r e w e g o b a c k I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o ta k e a f e w minutes adjournment. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: I w il l t a k e a fiv e m i n u te s a d j o u r n m e n t . r e s u m e a t a b o u t 3 o ’ c lo c k . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t ’s p r o c e e d . Page 140 of 174 W e w i ll 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir t h a n k y o u , a t p a g e M r M o ts o e n e n g o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u d e a l w i th t h e s u p p o r t s tr u c t u r e o f t h e S A B C , I t a k e it t h a t th is i s t h e s u p p o r t s tr u c tu r e a t t h e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e n o w t h e C O O , a m I c o r r e c t? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. Ye s , a n d y o u d e a l w it h w h a t t h e o p e r a ti o n s t e a m w a s d e a li n g w i t h i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 .3 , c o u ld y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t w e r e y o u d e a l in g w i t h t h e r e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 H e r e C h a ir I a m r e fe r r i n g t o a l l t h e d iv is i o n s t h a t r e p o r t s to m e , w h ic h I h a v e a lr e a d y m e n ti o n e d , w h i c h d iv is io n s t h e r e w e r e r e p o r ti n g m e . T h e k e y d i v is i o n s t h e r e w o u l d b e y o u r t e l e v is io n /r a d i o a n d m e d i a t e c h n o l o g y a n d c o m m e r c i a l s p a c e , those I am just mentioning a few Chair so that I don’t put everything, b u t a ls o I m e a n i f y o u l o o k C h a ir p e r s o n y o u a ls o h a v e y o u r o ffi c e m a n a g e r t h e r o l e o f o ffi c e m a n a g e r i s a v e r y, v e r y c r it ic a l o n e , s h e is n o t a b o v e t h e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e b u t th e – e v e r y t h in g th a t c o m e s t o m e it g o e s t o th e o ffic e m a n a g e r, to c h e c k t h e p r o c e s s , t o c h e c k e v e r y th i n g w h e t h e r – t h e s a m e g r o u p e x e c u tiv e t h e y h a v e fo ll o w e d p r o c e s s t h a t t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o fo ll o w, i t is a v e r y c r i ti c a l p o s i ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d a t p a g e 4 3 , if y o u c o u l d ju s t tu r n t o p a g e 4 3 , y o u m a k e r e f e r e n c e to t h a t a n n e x u r e w h i c h is t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a l s t r u c t u r e o f t h e S A B C , p a g e 4 3 . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s I a m t h e r e . Is that the picture of the organogram? w i ll b e u n d e r d i v i d e r n u m b e r o n e ? Page 141 of 174 It 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , y e s . Oh you have it, oh I beg your pardon, o k a y, th a n k y o u . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I h a v e i t . A n d t h e n w h e r e w o u l d t h e o ffi c e m a n a g e r fi t i n t h e r e o n t h a t o r g a n o g r a m ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: T h e o ffi c e m a n a g e r s i ts i n my o ffic e , y o u h a v e d iv is i o n s th a t r e p o r ts t o m e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A l s o s h e w i ll b e i n th is o ffi c e w h e r e y o u a r e i f o n e w e r e to d r a w a li n e w i t h i n o n t h a t o r g a n o g r a m , s o o n e w o u l d h a v e t o p u t th e o ff ic e m a n a g e r n e x t t o t h e C O O ’s o ffic e , th e p o s i ti o n ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e is p a r t o f y o u r s t a ff ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: S h e is p a r t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t , o k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 20 S h e is t h e m o s t fa m i ly p e r s o n in t h e o r g a n is a ti o n b e c a u s e e v e r y ti m e i n t h e m o r n i n g w e m e e t e a c h a n d e v e r y d a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e w o u ld b e t h e m o s t, w o u ld s h e b e t h e m o s t s e n i o r s t a ff m e m b e r w i t h i n y o u r s t a ff , w i t h i n y o u r s t a ff i n y o u r o ff ic e o f C O O ? Page 142 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir. Ye s C h a ir, th a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d t h e n t h is s tr u c t u r e i s i t th e s tr u c t u r e a s i t w a s a t t h e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e C O O , is – it h a s a l w a y s b e e n th e s tr u c tu r e t h a t e v e r y b o d y i n c l u d i n g n e w s w o u l d r e p o r t to th e C O O o r w a s i t t h e o r g a n o g r a m th a t y o u ’ v e p u t u p a t th e p o i n t w h e n y o u w e r e th e C O O ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: A ll t h e b r o a d c a s ti n g d iv i s i o n s t h e y h a v e b e e n r e p o r ti n g t o m e , t h e o n ly d iv i s i o n t h a t w e p u t to g e th e r i t w a s t h e t e c h n o lo g y a n d t h e c o m m e r c i a l o n e . T h e r e a s o n b e in g C h a ir a 10 b r o a d c a s t e r y o u n e e d A to k n o w w h a t B is d o in g , s o y o u n e e d a t e a m . I n t h e p a s t th e d iv is io n s t h e y w e r e i n d e p e n d e n t fr o m t h e ir u n i ts , s o w e p u t a s tr a t e g y t h a t l e t u s p u t t h is t e a m t o g e t h e r s o t h a t w h e n y o u g o a n d – s a l e s d iv is io n y o u g o a n d s e l l c o n t e n t , y o u k n o w w h a t y o u a r e s e l li n g , y o u a r e p a r t o f th a t te a m , y o u s i t i n t h o s e m e e t in g s , y o u ta k e d e c is i o n s to g e th e r, s o b u t i n th e p a s t e v e r y b o d y w a s d o in g o p e r a ti n g i n s il o s , th a t i s t h e r e a s o n w h y w e p u t t h a t s tr u c t u r e t o g e t h e r a n d t h a t s tr u c t u r e C h a i r p e r s o n d i d v e r y w e l l to g e n e r a t e m o r e r e v e n u e a n d a ls o p u t s t a b i li ty w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 y o u s ta t e th a t y o u c o u l d n ’ t a ll o w t h e B o a r d to a p p o i n t s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t , a n d c o u l d y o u ju s t – o r a t le a s t to a p p o i n t t h e p e o p l e th a t w e r e r e p o r ti n g t o y o u s u g g e s t in g t h a t y o u h a d t o a p p o i n t y o u r o w n s t a ff, is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e tr y i n g t o c o n v e y in t h a t p a r a g r a p h ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s C h a ir, i n t h e p a s t t h e S A B C B o a r d th e y w e r e a p p o i n ti n g G r o u p E x e c u t iv e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e Page 143 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 d ir e c t o r s , y o u r G C O , y o u r C O O a n d t h e C F O , t h e y w e r e a p p o in t in g t h e s e p e o p le f o r t h r e e d i r e c t o r s . M y v i e w w a s i f t h e s e p e o p le a r e g o i n g t o r e p o r t to m e I a m a c c o u n ta b l e , w h y s h o u l d b e a p p o i n te d b y t h e B o a r d w h e n i n a n y c a s e th e B o a r d a p p o i n ts u s a n d th a t C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s c a u s in g h a v o c i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n b e c a u s e p e o p l e t h a t r e p o r t to y o u th e y w il l te ll y o u n o , th e B o a r d i s r e s p o n s ib le , y o u a r e n o t r e s p o n s i b l e s o i t w a s c a u s i n g m o r e t e n s i o n , o p e r a ti o n a l t e n s i o n w i t h i n t h e t e a m , b u t in a n o r m a l o r g a n is a ti o n th e th r e e d ir e c t o r s t h e y s h o u l d b e a b l e t o a p p o i n t b u t n o t o n ly t h e m a l s o , e v e n s e n io r m a n a g e r s t h e y 10 s h o u l d a p p o in t p e o p l e w i t h i n th e i r d e l e g a t i o n o f a u t h o r i ty. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , a n d t h e n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, I’ m s o r r y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y b e f o r e t h is c h a n g e h a p p e n e d t h a t y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t t h e B o a r d u s e d t o a p p o i n t G r o u p E x e c u t iv e s i s t h a t r i g h t ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . And those who fell under the category of Group E x e c u t iv e s w e r e t h e G C E O , t h e C O O , t h e C F O a n d w h o e ls e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: 20 C a n y o u r e p e a t t h e q u e s t io n C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON: T h e q u e s t i o n w h o f e l l u n d e r th a t c a t e g o r y o f G r o u p E x e c u t iv e s ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. W h o w e r e a p p o i n te d b y th e B o a r d a t s o m e s ta g e b e f o r e th is c h a n g e h a p p e n e d ? Page 144 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: O k a y C h a ir, it w o u l d b e a l l y o u r G r o u p E x e c u tiv e s , y o u r G r o u p E x e c u ti v e o f Te l e v i s i o n , R a d io , Te c h n o l o g y a ll o f t h e m t h o s e d i v is i o n s . T h e r e a r e a b o u t e l e v e n . CHAIRPERSON: Oh there would be about eleven? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: Ye s t h e y fo r m E x c o , t o g e t h e r we form Exco. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y b u t i f o n e h a s r e g a r d to th e o r g a n o g r a m th a t y o u h a v e p u t u p o r t h a t h a s b e e n p u t u p a t p a g e 4 3 t h a t w e a r e lo o k i n g a t, b e f o r e th e c h a n g e t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t w h o w o u l d th e y b e 10 r e p o r t in g t o , w o u l d t h e y b e r e p o r t i n g to t h o s e p e o p l e t o – w o u l d s o m e o f t h e m b e r e p o r t i n g to th e C h i e f F i n a n c i a l O ff ic e r, o t h e r s to th e C O O , o th e r s to th e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O f fi c e r, o r w o u l d t h e y a ll b e r e p o r t in g t o o n l y o n e o f th e s e p e o p l e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: N o C h a ir, y o u a r e c o r r e c t , t h e y w il l r e p o r t, t h e b r o a d c a s t e r s w il l r e p o r t t o th e C O O , t h e fi n a n c i a l t e a m i n c lu d i n g y o u r p r o c u r e m e n t t h e y w il l r e p o r t t o t h e C F O . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Yo u r l e g a l , H R a n d o t h e r d iv is io n s t h e y w ill r e p o r t t o t h e G C E O b u t th e t w o d ir e c to r s , C O O a n d 20 C F O , w il l r e p o r t to t h e G C E O . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, o k a y, s o t h e c h a n g e t h a t y o u w a n t e d w a s t h a t e v e n i f p e o p le f e ll w i t h i n t h e c a te g o r y o f G r o u p E x e c u ti v e s , i f t h e y w e r e n o t C O O a n d th e y w e r e n o t C F O a n d t h e y w e r e n o t G C E O t h e y s h o u l d b e a p p o i n te d b y t h e r e l e v a n t C o r p o r a t e Ex e c u ti v e a m o n g t h e s e t h r e e , s o s o m e w o u l d b e a p p o in t e d i n t e r m s o f y o u r p r o p o s a l , w o u ld b e Page 145 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 a p p o i n t e d b y t h e C O O , t h e b r o a d c a s t e r s , t h o s e th a t f a l l u n d e r th a t a n d t h o s e t h a t fa ll u n d e r th e C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l O ffi c e r i n t e r m s o f y o u r p r o p o s a l w o u ld h a v e t o b e a p p o in t e d b y e i th e r th e C h i e f F i n a n c i a l O ff ic e r o r s o m e b o d y lo w e r th a n th a t w i t h i n t h a t s tr e a m a n d th e n th e r e w o u ld b e s o m e t h a t m a y b e a p p o i n te d b y t h e G C E O . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: T h e E x c o C h a ir w h ic h is t h e G r o u p E x e c u ti v e , e l e v e n o f t h e m , i f t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to b e a p p o i n t e d t h e t h r e e d ir e c to r s in c l u d i n g t h e H R th e y w il l s i t d o w n , g o t h r o u g h a ll th e i n t e r v ie w s a n d a p p o i n t . 10 For instance when I was the C O O I a p p o i n t e d e i g h t w o m e n , s a m e t i m e C h a ir p e r s o n , b e c a u s e a t th e S A B C a t t h e t o p w e d i d n o t h a v e w o m e n i n th o s e p o s i t io n s C h a ir p e r s o n , s o t h a t w il l – b u t i t is n o t m e , i t is m e a n d t h e p a n e l t h e t h r e e d ir e c to r s w e a p p o i n t e d th o s e a l t h o u g h I c h a m p i o n e d w o m e n t o b e a p p o i n t e d a t the SABC. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, t h a n k y o u . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d t h e n b y m a k in g t h o s e a p p o i n t m e n ts I t a k e i t t h a t th e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a d v e r ti s e m e n t s a n d p e o p l e w o u l d r e s p o n d , t h e r e w o u l d b e i n te r v i e w s a n d t h e n t h o s e w o m e n w o u l d t h e n b e a p p o in t e d . 20 D i d y o u f o ll o w t h a t p r o c e s s o r d i d y o u i n tr o d u c e a n e w p r o c e s s ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: a d v e r t is in g t h e p o s t C h a ir. W e fo ll o w e d th e p r o c e s s o f A lt h o u g h I w a s h a v i n g a d i ff e r e n t v i e w C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I w il l t e l l y o u w h y I w a s h a v in g a d i ff e r e n t v i e w, b u t n o t j u s t t o a p p o i n t p e o p l e , n o w I w a s s a y in g w h y d o w e w a n t – w h e n y o u k n o w t h a t y o u w a n t w o m e n w h y d o y o u w a n t m e n t o c o m e in , t h e Page 146 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 H R s a i d t o m e n o , i t’s d is c r i m i n a t i o n , b u t I s a i d y o u k n o w t h e e q u i ty i s t h e r e t h a t y o u m u s t h a v e , th e y s a i d n o b u t i t i s fi n e , a l lo w t h e m t o g o f o r i n te r v i e w s , b u t u n f o r t u n a t e l y e v e n in t h o s e i n te r v i e w s w e a p p o i n t a ll t h e s e w o m e n c h a i r p e r s o n , w h ic h I a m v e r y p r o u d o f . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h M r M o ts o e n e n g y o u m a k e t h e p o i n t a b o u t t h e b r o a d c a s t e r n o t b e i n g a p o li t ic a l p a r ty, I a m j u s t tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u n e e d e d to m a k e t h a t p o i n t a t th is s t a g e o f y o u r a ff id a v i t , a n d c o u l d y o u j u s t t a k e t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h e r e a s o n s w h y y o u fe l t t h a t a t th is p o i n t o f y o u r 10 e v i d e n c e i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u s h o u ld r a i s e t h a t p o in t ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n I th in k e v e r y b o d y k n o w s t h a t S A B C i t is a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s te r, e v e r y o n e is h a v i n g i n te r e s t in t h e S A B C , s o th e r e a s o n w h y e v e n w h e n p e o p l e w e r e a p p o i n t e d a s G r o u p E x e c u t iv e fo r m e t h e y w e r e a p p o i n te d s o m e o f t h e m p o li ti c a ll y s o , t h a t is w h y C h a ir p e r s o n d u r i n g m y t i m e I a r g u e d f o r c e f u l ly to s a y w h y c a n ’ t w e e m p lo y p e o p le w i th in S A B C b e c a u s e S A B C a lr e a d y w a s b l o a t e d a n d i f t h e S A B C i s b l o a t e d w h y c a n ’ t y o u a d v e r t is e a n d a p p o i n t w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n . T h e r e a s o n w h y t h e r e is n o s t a b il i ty a t t h e S A B C i s b e c a u s e o f 20 p o li t ic s C h a ir p e r s o n , and I r a is e d is s u e s even th e Board, the a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e B o a r d t o s a y i n m y v ie w C h a i r p e r s o n , I k n o w s o m e people they h a m m e r m e o n t h i s , b u t t h a t i s w h a t I s t a n d f o r, I e v e n s a i d t h e S A B C s h o u l d n o t b e a p p o i n t e d b y P a r li a m e n t, a n d I s a i d i t s h o u l d b e c h a ir e d b y a r e t ir e d J u d g e , b e c a u s e o f th e p o l i tic s t h a t I h a v e b e e n th r o u g h w i t h i n th e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d I s e r v e u n d e r t h r e e Page 147 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 B o a r d s C h a ir p e r s o n , s o I h a v e s e e n t h a t t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m w h e n it c o m e s t o p o li ti c s . Example Krish N a id o o , who was a Board m e m b e r, we d is c u s s e d t h e s e is s u e s o f p o li ti c s a n d t h e n in c l u d i n g m y f o r m e r G C O , t h e o n e t h a t I s ti ll r e s p e c t e v e n to d a y, M e L u l a m a , I w a s h a v i n g a p r o b le m w h e r e th e y w o u ld r e p o r t . . .( in t e r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: name? I ’ m s o r r y, y o u m e n t i o n e d t h e n a m e , w h a t w a s t h e Yo u m e n ti o n e d th e n a m e o f th is G C E O t h a t y o u s a i d . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: M y f o r m e r G C E O M e L u la m a . CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay Ms Mokhobo. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . W h e r e a p o li t ic i a n w il l c a l l t h e d ir e c to r s o f th e S A B C t o a t te n d w o r k s h o p s o f a p o li t ic a l p a r ty, s o I w a s fi g h ti n g f o r t h a t , I s a i d n o I d o n ’t a g r e e t h a t w e a s S A B C , a n d C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n t e l l y o u I c o m e fr o m t h e A N C , b u t I c a n n o t a l lo w t o b e c o n tr o ll e d b y a p o l i ti c a l p a r t y w h e n I a m s u p p o s e d t o s e r v e t h e p u b li c . T h is i s w h a t I s a id i n t h o s e m i n u t e s o f th e B o a r d , w h e r e I w a s w a r n i n g K r i s h N a id o o b e c a u s e h e w a s s a y i n g n o I a m – w e a r e d e p l o y e d h e r e a s p o li t ic a l – c o m i n g fr o m d i ffe r e n t p o li t ic a l p a r t i e s , I 20 s a i d n o b u t t h a t i s w r o n g b e c a u s e i m m e d ia t e ly w h e n y o u o c c u p y t h is p o s i ti o n y o u l e a v e t h a t h e a d , n o w y o u f o c u s o n t h e S A B C , a n d C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e i s K r i s h N a i d o o to b e h o n e s t m e a n d h i m I k n o w t h a t m y G C E O w a s s a y i n g n o w e lo c k h o r n s , b u t I d o n o t h a v e h o r n s I t h i n k h e w a s j u s t t e a s i n g , w e w o r k e d v e r y c l o s e t o g e t h e r a n d I s t il l r e s p e c t h e r e v e n t o d a y C h a ir p e r s o n , b u t . . . ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) Page 148 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Ms M a k h o b o , s h e w a s t h e C E O . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s C h a ir. S o K r is h N a id o o w a s w o r k in g i n N t u l i H o u s e a n d I w a s a l w a y s h a v i n g a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e K r is h N a i d o o is t h e o n e w h o s a id t o A N C a s l o n g a s H la u d i is t h e r e y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to m a k e i t a n d I w a s fi g h t i n g w i th C h r is b e c a u s e C h r is w a s in t e r f e r i n g C h a ir p e r s o n , in t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f th e S A B C , w h e r e h e is not supposed to operate. I r a is e d t h o s e is s u e s in th e B o a r d , in th e m i n u t e s y o u r e a lis e th o s e i s s u e a r e t h e r e . I s a id K r is h I d is a g r e e w i t h y o u a n d m a n y B o a r d m e m b e r s w h o h a d b e e n i n fl u e n c e d b y p o li ti c s 10 C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t w a s t h e i s s u e to b e h o n e s t I d o n ’ t b e li e v e t h a t p o li t ic a l p a r t i e s s h o u ld g e t in v o lv e d i n t h e r u n n in g o f t h e S A B C . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e f u ll ti m e a t L u t h u li H o u s e , Mr K r i s h N a i d o o , to y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s h e e m p l o y e d f u l lt i m e th e r e o r w h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n ? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n ’ t s a y r e a l ly s u r e b u t e v e r y d a y h e w a s i n L u th u l i H o u s e , m o s t o f t h e t i m e , n o t e v e r y d a y, m o s t o f t h e ti m e h e w ill s a y n o , n o , n o , w e a r e h a v in g a m e e ti n g in L u t h u l i H o u s e , I a m c o m i n g , w e a r e h a v in g a c a s e i n t h e F r e e S t a t e , h e is i n N o r th w e s t , I a m g o i n g to w o r k , 20 so for me I think he was – but u n d e r c o r r e c t io n C h a i r p e r s o n , I d o n ’ t w a n t t o p u t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s y o u a r e n o t s u r e . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t I th i n k h e w a s w o r k i n g f o r ANC. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o w y o u m a d e a s t a te m e n t w h ic h y o u a t tr i b u t e d t o h i m a f e w m i n u t e s a g o n a m e ly th a t h e s a i d s o m e t h in g a lo n g t h e l in e s Page 149 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h a t w e a r e d e p lo y e d b y th e A N C , d i d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c t , is t h a t w h a t h e s a id ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a i r i n t h e s e m i n u t e s w e h a v e t h o s e m in u t e s , y e s y o u ’r e c o r r e c t s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , o k a y t h a n k y o u . S o y o u s a y e x c e p t f o r y o u r d is a g r e e m e n t o n t h i s is s u e th e tw o o f y o u w o r k e d q u i t e w e l l ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: W i th K r is h N a i d o o ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 H a a i C h a ir m a n n o , C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , I th o u g h t th a t ’s w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o I w a s s a y i n g th e f o r m e r GCEO. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: N o t w it h K r is h N a i d o o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y n o t w i t h M r N a i d o o . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n h e y t h e s t o r y t h e r e i s i t ’s to u g h b u t w e w il l n o t ta lk a b o u t i t n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o , i t d id n ’t g o w e l l to g e th e r. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Now that you m e n ti o n e d M s M a k h o b o m a y b e I s h o u l d p u t th is q u e s t io n t o y o u . I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r y o u d i d w a tc h h e r e v i d e n c e w h e n s h e t e s ti f ie d b u t s h e d i d m e n t io n s o m e t h in g t h a t – a ft e r th e a p p o i n t m e n t y o u to o k h e r to th e G u p t a F a m il y w h e r e s h e w a s c o n g r a t u l a te d b y s o m e o f t h e G u p ta b r o t h e r s . C o u l d y o u j u s t d e a l w i t h th a t? Page 150 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s C h a ir w e e n j o y e d c u r r y there, big time Chairperson, together with Me Lulama. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e s a id i t w a s s o m e th in g lik e w i t h i n a w e e k a f t e r h e r a p p o in t m e n t ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o C h a ir p e r s o n a s – I w a s a c ti n g a s t h e G C O . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e s h e w a s a p p o i n t e d ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 Ye s , I w a s a c t in g a s a G C O , i t w a s p a r t o f h a n d o v e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: A n d it w a s p a r t ly b e c a u s e I s a i d t o h e r lo o k c o m p l i a n c e t h e y i n f o r m m e t h a t t h e r e i s t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n T N A a n d t h e S A B C b u t w e a s S A B C a r e n o t c o m p ly i n g b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o M O U o n t h is m a t t e r. These are the p e o p l e th a t w e a r e w o r k i n g w it h t h e m , b u t th e s e p e o p l e th e y t a l k t o m e t o s a y w e w il l b e h a p p y if w e c a n m e e t y o u r n e w G C O , w h a t s h e is s a y in g I w e n t t o h e r a d a y b e f o r e t h a t m o r n i n g t h a t s h e is r e f e r r i n g th a t I j u s t c a m e a n d s a i d le t ’s g o t o th e G u p t a s , n o w w e d is c u s s e d 20 C h a ir p e r s o n . Ye s , i n th e m o r n i n g I w e n t i n to h e r o ffi c e a n d t h e n w h e n I a r r iv e d I s a i d h e y G C O y o u k n o w w h a t I h a v e s o m e s tu ff th a t I w a n t t o d e a l w i th a t t e n s o b u t i f w e c a n s e e t h e s e p e o p l e i f y o u a r e o k a y, b u t w e h a v e a lr e a d y d is c u s s e d a d a y b e f o r e , w e w e n t th e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , s h e w a s v e r y h a p p y, I w a s v e r y h a p p y, i n c l u d i n g m y s e l f , w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e i t w a s b r e a k f a s t C h a ir p e r s o n , w e w e n t a n d t h e n w e e a t b r e a k f a s t Page 151 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 a n d t h e y p r o p o s e d C h a i r p e r s o n lik e a n y b u s i n e s s p e o p l e , y o u k n o w e v e n C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I g o i n th e s tr e e t p e o p le p r o p o s e , t h e y g iv e y o u a p r o p o s a l, th e y s a i d b e c a u s e y o u a r e g o i n g to m ig r a t e w e w i s h th a t w e c a n h a v e c h a n n e ls in t h a t b o u q u e t o f t h e S A B C , w h ic h i t is n o r m a l , e v e r y o n e d o e s t h a t , t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g w r o n g a b o u t th o s e i s s u e s . B u t th e c o n c e r n C h a ir p e r s o n is I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t G u p ta s t h e r e ’s t h is p e o p l e th e y d o n ’ t w a n t t o h e a r a n y th i n g , th e y r u n a w a y, t h e y w a n t to g o u n d e r th e t a b l e s , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t i s th e p r o b le m , b u t r e a l i ty is w e h a v e m e t G u p t a s , w e h a v e e n g a g e d t h e m 10 C h a ir p e r s o n and I was to allude to t h is C h a ir p e r s o n because . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u a t e th e c u r r y. MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: I e n j o y e d i t C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s . A n d I w a n t to a l l u d e t o t h is C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u a r e d e a li n g w i th S t a t e C a p t u r e C h a ir p e r s o n , in m y v ie w I w a s c a p t u r i n g p r iv a te s e c t o r. CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: S o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r e p e a t t h a t s e n te n c e . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : 20 Yo u k n o w s o m e t i m e s y o u w a n t t o s p e a k y o u r o w n la n g u a g e . I a m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n n o w I w a s tr y in g t o c a p t u r e p r i v a t e s e c t o r a n d I w a n t t o d e m o n s tr a te t o y o u , t h a t is o n l y w h e r e I k n o w t h a t I d i ff e r w it h m y f o r m e r G C E O , M e L u l a m a , b e c a u s e i n a m e e ti n g o f E s k o m I s a i d t o h e r, n o t t o h e r, E s k o m , a s w e w e r e d is c u s s in g is s u e s , I s a i d b u t t h e s e p e o p l e w e h a v e a p a r t n e r s h i p w i t h t h e m , a n d t h e y h a v e j e t , t h e y h a v e a l l t h e s e t h in g s , n ic e s t u ff , f ly i n g , Page 152 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 w h y c a n ’ t w e – b e c a u s e w e – a lr e a d y w e w e r e i n th is p a r t n e r s h i p , w h y c a n ’ t w e u s e t h e m C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s a b i g n o fr o m M e L u l a m a , m a y b e s h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o th a t , t h a t is th e o n ly i s s u e th a t w e r e a ll y a n d I w a s v e r y, b e c a u s e f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e s h e d i ff e r e d w i t h m e o n th a t i s s u e , b u t n o t – w e w e r e s t il l w o r k in g , la u g h i n g , b u t s h e s a i d H la u d i , t h e G u p t a s , I s a i d w h a t’s w r o n g , e v e r y b o d y n o w is ta lk i n g a b o u t t h e G u p t a s , w e can’t. B u t I s a i d n o a lr e a d y w e a r e i n , w e a r e p a r tn e r, w h y c a n ’ t w e u s e th e ir je t , b e c a u s e C h a ir p e r s o n w e f ly t o a ll t h e s e P r o v i n c e s , w e fl y t o C a p e To w n , f o r m e i t w a s a n o p p o r t u n i ty, f o r m e a ls o t o c a p tu r e 10 them. S o a n d t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n i t w i ll g o t h e s a m e w it h – m a y b e b e c a u s e I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h is is s u e , i t w i ll g o t o M u l t iC h o i c e , y o u s e e e v e n M u l ti C h o ic e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y d i d n ’ t a p p r o a c h u s a t th e S A B C , f o r t h a t c h a n n e l o r th o s e tw o c h a n n e ls , I a p p r o a c h e d t h e m , b u t t h e fir s t p e r s o n w h o a p p r o a c h e d M u lt ic h o ic e i t w a s o u r f o r m e r G C E O , M e Magubo and Dr Ngubane, they went and approached them because t h e r e w a s a p r e s s u r e t o s a y b u t y o u S A B C w h y a r e y o u n o t c o m p e ti n g in t h is s p a c e o f n e w s . C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 4 H o u r n e w s s e r v i c e ja . 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s c h a ir, w h e n y o u h a v e y o u r E T V c o m p e t in g i n t h a t s p a c e th e r e w a s p r e s s u r e e v e n fr o m t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e b u t e v e n c i tiz e n s g e n e r a ll y t o s a y w h y y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a c h a n n e l l ik e E T V b e c a u s e t h e y ’ v e g o t a c h a n n e l t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: A 24 hour news channel? MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG: Page 153 of 174 A 24 hour news channel 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C h a ir p e r s o n . S o a n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h e y w e n t a n d ta lk e d a n d engaged. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w D r N g u b a n e , t h e c h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a n d M s M o k h o b o th e th e n G C E O . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s , t h e y w e n t a n d a p p r o a c h e d them, they came back to the Board, the Board was not happy about t h e ir p r o c e s s a n d s o o n b u t w e r e s o lv e d t h o s e is s u e s , b u t i t c o u l d n o t k ic k o ff b e c a u s e o f t h e f i n a n c i a ls , b e c a u s e t h e ir M u l tic h o i c e th e y w e r e s a y in g t h e y a r e g o in g to f u n d S A B C f o r R 5 0 m il li o n f o r fiv e y e a r s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n M r M o t s o e n e n g , I k n o w t h a t M s N o r m a n w il l b e d e a li n g w i th t h a t a t s o m e s ta g e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a i r y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r y o u m ig h t n o t g o t h a t f a r, s o t h a t w e k e e p t o t h e p o i n t , I th i n k y o u w e r e th e q u e s ti o n , y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e q u e s t io n o f y o u a n d M s M o k h o b o g o in g t o t h e G u p ta r e s id e n c e . T h a t’s h o w it e n d e d , y o u w e r e s a y in g y o u h a d s p o k e n t o h e r b e f o r e , t h e d a y b e f o r e y o u d i d n ’ t ju s t c o m e o u t o f t h e b l u e a n d s a y le t ’s g o s o m e w h e r e , y o u s a y y o u h a d s p o k e n b e f o r e a n d th e n t h e fo ll o w i n g m o r n in g y o u c a m e . 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: Ye s C h a ir b u t I w a n t t o s u b m i t w i t h d u e r e s p e c t C h a ir, w h a t my fo r m e r G C E O w a s s a y i n g i t w a s n o t c o r r e c t , b e c a u s e w h e n s h e w a s d e a l i n g w it h t h e is s u e i t s e e m s a s i f I w e n t in t o h e r o ffi c e , c a ll e d h e r, l e t’s g o , e v e n m y d a u g h t e r e i g h t y e a r s w i ll a s k m e d a d w h e r e a r e w e g o in g , s h e k n e w w h e r e w e w e r e g o i n g , y e s C h a ir p e r s o n s h e k n e w w h e r e w e w e r e g o i n g , i t ’s n o t l ik e I Page 154 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: Did she know that fr o m the previous d a y ’s d is c u s s io n ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e p r e v i o u s d a y y o u h a d s a i d , t h e tw o o f y o u h a d a d is c u s s i o n in t e r m s o f w h ic h y o u w e r e g o i n g t o g o to t h e G u p ta r e s id e n c e t h e fo ll o w i n g m o r n i n g . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: W h a t w e d i s c u s s e d C h a ir w e s a i d t h e G u p t a s th e y h a v e a s k e d m e s o th a t I c a n s e e h e r, b u t w e d i d n ’ t 10 s a y t h e s a m e m o r n i n g w e w il l g o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u d i d n ’ t f ix t h e d a t e ? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o , n o w e d i d n ’ t f ix th e d a t e , b u t I – t h e is s u e s t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t i t w a s c o m p l ia n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s , b u t i n th e m o r n in g w h e n I c a m e I w e n t t o h e r o ff ic e , b u t s h e k n e w t h a t t h a t p l a n w a s a l r e a d y t h e r e to go to. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h e n y o u w e n t t o h e r t h e f o ll o w i n g m o r n i n g d i d y o u s a y l e t’s g o to t h e G u p ta s ? 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o s h e d i d n ’ t fi n d o u t o n ly w h e n s h e a r r i v e d a t t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e I h a v e Page 155 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 a lr e a d y m e n t i o n e d t h e c o m p l ia n c e i s s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ta lk i n g a b o u t t h e G u p t a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: A n d t h e p r e v i o u s d a y I t o ld h e r a b o u t t h e y w a n t to s e e h e r b u t w e d id n ’ t fi n a li s e t h e d a te . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, a lr ig h t . B e f o r e Ms N o r m a n c o n ti n u e s I ju s t w a n t t o a s k y o u a n o t h e r q u e s ti o n , y o u s a y o n c e y o u w e r e a t t h e G u p ta r e s id e n c e y o u e n j o y e d c u r r y th e r e , w h a t c u r r y w a s it ? 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n I w e n t t h e r e m o r e than – I can’t count. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e n t th e r e m a n y ti m e s ? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o , n o C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t count. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s , b e c a u s e I m u s t t e l l y o u t h e tr u th , I c a n n o t c o u n t , I w e n t t h e r e s e v e r a l ti m e s a n d I e n j o y e d c u r r y C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n ’ t w a n t to li e . CHAIRPERSON: 20 with them? Ye s , a n d i t w o u l d b e f a i r to s a y y o u b e c a m e fr i e n d s W h e n y o u s a y y o u w e n t t h e r e s o m a n y ti m e s y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i t lo o k s li k e y o u w e r e fr i e n d s w i t h t h e m . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o C h a ir p e r s o n y o u k n o w I k n o w p e o p l e h a v e fr ie n d s , b u t n o w I d o n ’ t h a v e fr ie n d s , I h a v e p e o p l e t h a t I k n o w, I d o n ’ t c a ll t h e m f r i e n d s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, o k a y, s o th a t m u s t b e a w r o n g t e r m , b u t Page 156 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 y o u i n te r a c t e d w i th t h e m c o u n tl e s s t i m e s ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o w I w il l te ll y o u la t e r w h y I a m p u r s u i n g t h e is s u e o f c u r r y, w h a t c u r r y w a s it , w a s i t b e e f c u r r y, w a s i t l a m b c u r r y o r w a s i t c h i c k e n c u r r y, w h a t c u r r y w a s i t , c a n y o u r e m e m b e r ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e y eat meat. CHAIRPERSON: Hey! MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 I d o n ’t t h i n k t h e y e a t m e a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: B u t i t h a s s o m e t h i n g c a ll e d c u r r y, y e s I d o n ’ t k n o w .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h d i d n ’ t h a v e m e a t. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: B u t I d o n ’ t th in k i t ’s – th e y c a ll it c u r r y .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s n o t t h e c u r r y a s w e k n o w i t . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: I think so Chairperson. Ye s , a s fa r a s y o u r e c a l l th e r e w a s n o m e a t i n t h e c u r r y t h a t y o u a te , th a t y o u e n j o y e d . 20 MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: N o C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o n ’ t t h i n k , y e s I d o n ’ t t h i n k th e r e w a s m e a t . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o I w a s a s k i n g t h a t q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e in M s M e n to o r ’s s t a t e m e n t a n d i n h e r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n s h e s a i d t h a t w h e n s h e h a d a m e e t in g , w h e n s h e w a s a t t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e w h e r e s h e w a s o ff e r e d t h e p o s i t io n o f M i n i s te r o f P u b li c Page 157 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 E n t e r p r is e s o n h e r v e r s i o n I t h in k s h e w a s o ff e r e d c u r r y a n d I t h i n k s h e s a i d , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f s h e s a id l a m b c u r r y o r b e e f c u r r y, n o w i n r e s p o n s e t o t h a t M r A ja y G u p ta i n h is a ff i d a v i t s a i d t h e r e is n o w a y w e c o u l d h a v e o ffe r e d y o u b e e f c u r r y o r la m b c u r r y, I j u s t c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h i c h o n e , b u t h e s a id w e c o u l d n ’ t o ff e r e d y o u t h a t, w e a r e H in d u a n d s o o n , s o I wanted to check what kind of curry you were given but you say it did not have meat. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . 10 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. M a y b e M r M o ts o e n e n g , w e c o u l d ju s t d e a l w i t h t h e 9 0 /1 0 p o li c y a n d j u s t g e t it o u t o f th e w a y. C o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t m o t iv a t e d t h is p o li c y a n d w h a t w a s i t a l l a b o u t? B e c a u s e i t’s s o m e th in g th a t t h e i n t e r i m b o a r d , I’ ll d ir e c t y o u t o t h o s e p a g e s w a s c r i t ic a l o f a n d a ls o , o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s if y o u m a y r e c a l l M r P h ir i te s ti fi e d b e f o r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . Th a t h e d i d n ’ t t h in k t h a t it w a s a b a d i d e a t o i n tr o d u c e t h a t p o l ic y b u t i t w a s t h e m a n n e r in w h i c h it w a s i n tr o d u c e d th a t h e w a s c r it ic a l o f . M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : C h a i r p e r s o n , I th in k it i s v e r y i m p o r ta n t f o r a ll p e o p le o f S o u t h A f r i c a t o b l e s s t h e ir o w n p e o p le f ir s t b e f o r e th e y 20 c a n b le s s p e o p l e fr o m o u ts i d e t h e c o u n tr y. R e a s o n b e in g w h e n w e c a m e w i t h 9 0 % , w e d id n ’t w a k e u p in t h e m o r n in g a n d in tr o d u c e 9 0 % . I t h a s b e e n a p r o c e s s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e i n b r o a d c a s ti n g a s t h e C O O I h a v e t h e s u m m i t . A n n u a l ly s o I h a v e a s u m m i t w h e r e w e g o th r o u g h a l l t h e p r o g r a m s t h a t a r e p e r f o r m in g a n d n o n - p e r f o r m a n c e a n d w h e n y o u lo o k a ll th o s e p r o g r a ms th e n o n - p e r f o r m a n c e o u r in t e r n a t i o n a l c o n t e n t. Page 158 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 I k n o w t h a t th e y w e r e s a y i n g t h a t n o , l o c a l c o n t e n t a c t u a ll y c a u s e d h a r m f o r th e S A B C . I t i s n o t tr u e C h a ir p e r s o n . L o o k G e n e r a ti o n , l o o k U z a l o t h o s e a r e t h e m o s t w a tc h e d s o a p i e s in S o u t h A fr ic a . S o , t h e r e is n o w a y t h a t i n t e r n a ti o n a l c o n t e n t w il l b e a t l o c a l c o n t e n t . W e w e n t t h r o u g h C h a ir p e r s o n a f t e r o u r s u m m i t b u t my i s s u e w a s , w e a s S A B C w e h a v e b e e n ta lk in g f o r m a n y, m a n y y e a r s C h a ir p e r s o n . E v e n b e fo r e I c a m e , p e o p l e w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t l o c a l c o n t e n t b u t w h e n t h e y t a lk a t t h e S A B C t h e y b e li e v e t h a t w h e n th e y h a v e a p a p e r t h e y h a v e p u t, t h e y h a v e d e li v e r e d . S o , f o r m e w h e n I s e e o u tc o m e I h a v e d e li v e r e d . B u t 10 a ls o , C h a i r p e r s o n w e l o o k a t t h e b o o k s o f t h e S A B C . E x a m p l e , w h e n y o u ta k e a r t is t o f S o u t h A fr i c a y o u k n o w p e o p l e t a p e t h e … ( in d i s ti n c t) a n d p e o p l e a r e s o e x c i t e d . I m e a n I d o n ’t k n o w b e c a u s e p e o p l e t a l k a b o u t i t . F o r m e it ’s p a i n fu l i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o u s e t h a t w o r d f o r y o u r o w n a r t is t . I r e a li z e d t h a t a c t u a ll y w e a r e p a y in g a r t is ts o u ts i d e m o r e t h a n o u r o w n a r ti s t s in S o u t h A f r ic a . A n d I s a i d t o t h e t e a m , w e c a n ’ t b e a b l e s s e r. Yo u m u s t b l e s s y o u r o w n c h i ld r e n fir s t b e f o r e y o u b l e s s p e o p l e fr o m o u ts id e . S o , t h a t i s th e r e a s o n w h y w e i n tr o d u c e lo c a l c o n te n t . B u t w e a ls o w e n t a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y t a l k i n g to p e o p le , c i t iz e n s a s k in g t h e m a b o u t w h a t t h e f e e l a b o u t th e S A B C . T h e m a j o r i t y o f t h e m 20 t h e y s a i d , w h y d o y o u s h o w u s t h e B o ld a n d th e B e a u ti f u l ? S o m e o f t h e m t h e y a r e s a y i n g n o , w h e n w e g r o w, w e a r e g e t t in g o l d e r. W e a r e s t il l s e e i n g t h is th e B o l d a n d th e B e a u ti f u l . S o , I s a id , w h y c a n ’ t w e have our own th e B o ld and the B e a u ti f u l as South A f r ic a n s C h a ir p e r s o n ? A n d i f y o u lo o k in A fr ic a C h a ir, m a n y p e o p l e t h e y w a tc h N i g e r i a n c o n t e n t . W h y ? B e c a u s e it ’s a p p e a li n g . E v e n h e r e i n S o u th Page 159 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A fr ic a w e c a n d o t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n , S o u t h A fr ic a w il l c r e a te e m p lo y m e n t , S o u th A f r i c a w il l c r e a te s u s ta in a b l e a r t is ts b e c a u s e t h e y d i e a s … ( in d is ti n c t) b e c a u s e th e m o n e y g o e s o u t . S o , t h o s e a r e t h e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n . B u t a l s o , C h a ir p e r s o n i t is n o t a b o u t t h e a r ti s t . I t is a ls o a b o u t y o u r p r o d u c ti o n h o u s e s b e c a u s e w e w e r e s a y i n g i t c a n ’ t b e r i g h t t h a t w h e n y o u g o t o K w a Zu l u N a t a l , y o u g o to L i m p o p o I c a n ’ t l e a v e m y p r o v i n c e Fr e e S t a t e C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u g o t o Fr e e S t a t e , y o u d o n ’t h a v e a c t o r s c o m in g fr o m t h o s e p r o v i n c e s w h e n a c tu a lly w e a r e a p u b li c b r o a d c a s t e r. W h a t k in d o f c o n t e n t a r e w e s u p p o s e d t o d o ? I t’s a lo c a l 10 c o n te n t . E v e n w h e n y o u c h e c k th e b r o a d c a s ti n g Ac t , i t ta lk s a b o u t S A B C d e v e l o p i n g l o c a l c o n t e n t p r o d u c t io n h o u s e s . T h a t i s w h a t w e d i d C h a ir p e r s o n . To b e h o n e s t I h a v e a p a i n w h e r e I a m C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h e b o a r d , th e y r e v e r s e 9 0 /1 0 . Yo u k n o w w h y t h e y r e v e r s e d i t ? Th e y d i d n ’ t w a n t t h e p e r s o n b u t t h e p e r s o n w a s c o r r e c t . B u t if y o u d o n ’ t w a n t t h e p e r s o n d o n ’ t d e s tr o y w h a t i s g o o d f o r th e c o u n tr y b e c a u s e t h a t is what SABC i m p l e m e n te d is doing. C h a ir. A n d Th e y are d e s t r o y in g you can imagine e v e r y th in g C h a ir p e r s o n that we Pr e s id e n t R a m a p h o s a n o w a n o th e r p r e s i d e n t c o m e s . H e ju s t w a k e u p a n d fe e l n o m a n t h a t p r e s id e n t w a s n o t d o i n g a n d y o u d e s t r o y e v e r y t h i n g . Th a t ’s 20 w h y S A B C w i ll b e a l w a y s in t h e s e tr o u b l e s t h a t t h e y a r e f a c i n g C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e y o u s h o u l d t a k e t h e g o o d a n d l e a v e th e b a d t h a t y o u t h i n k t h i s o n e is n o t w o r k i n g . B u t i n t h e lo c a l c o n t e n t I c a n a t te s t it ’s th e d i a m o n d o f S o u t h A f r i c a fo r o u r a r t is ts a n d b u s in e s s p e o p l e g e n e r a l ly C h a ir p e r s o n . S o , I b e li e v e i n u s b e f o r e I c a n b e l ie v e i n o t h e r p e o p l e . A n d C h a i r p e r s o n , I w e n t a b r o a d . Yo u k n o w w h a t is v e r y Page 160 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 in t e r e s ti n g I w a s r e a ll y h o n o u r e d t o b e i n v i te d b y b r o a d c a s t e r s in t e r n a t io n a l ly i n I n d i a n o t to t h e G u p t a s , C h a ir. I n I n d i a w e r e a ll t h e b r o a d c a s t e r s w e n t a n d d is c u s s e d b e c a u s e w h e n I i n tr o d u c e d 9 0 / 1 0 a l l S o u th A f r ic a p e o p l e w e r e e x c i t e d . Wa k e u p , I m e a n y o u g o t o t h e a ir p o r t y o u f e e l y o u a r e i n S o u th A f r ic a . I t ’s a l l t h is m u s ic , o u r A fr i c a n m u s ic . T h e y i n v i te d m e t o c o m e to s a y b u t w h y a r e y o u g e t t in g r id o f u s . W h y a r e y o u s a y in g 1 0 % i n t e r n a t io n a l c o n t e n t n o t a t l e a s t 6 0 % f o r S o u th A f r ic a ? A t l e a s t w e c a n s e e t h a t w e a r e m o v in g s o m e w h e r e . B u t I s a i d t o t h e m , te ll m e h o w m a n y a r ti s ts d o y o u p l a y in t h is c o u n tr y ? I 10 h a v e b e e n h e r e fo r a w e e k . I h a v e n e v e r l is t e n e d to m u s ic o r a m u s ic ia n fr o m A f r i c a . It ’s a l l t h e A m e r i c a n s a n d o t h e r s . Yo u d o n ’ t p l a y o u r m u s ic . W h e n i t c o m e s to c o n te n t C h a ir p e r s o n , I s a id t o t h e m , f o r u s t o b u y y o u r c o n t e n t o u r o w n a c t o r s h e r e t h o s e w h o a r e a c t in g G e n e r a ti o n s a n d o t h e r s o a p i e s w h e n w e b u y, w e m u s t b e n e f it . W e m u s t h a v e o u r o w n a c to r s t h e r e i n t h e B o l d a n d t h e B e a u ti f u l ; e x a m p le a c ti n g in t e r n a t io n a l ly b e c a u s e I b e l i e v e o u r p e o p l e a r e c a p a b l e t o a c t in t e r n a t io n a l ly. W e a g r e e C h a ir p e r s o n . I ’ m s u r p r i s e d th a t th e n e w b o a r d is t a lk i n g b a d a b o u t lo c a l c o n t e n t . B u t I c a n te ll y o u C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e y d o n ’t k n o w b r o a d c a s t in g . T h is o n e C h a i r p e r s o n I c a n a t t e s t t o y o u . 20 They don’t understand b r o a d c a s ti n g . Example C h a ir p e r s o n , the C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d in c l u d i n g t h e G C O t h e y ta lk a b o u t y o u n e e d t o in v e s t i n t i m e b e fo r e y o u p u t a c o n t e n t a n d t h e y m a k e m is le a d i n g i s s u e a b o u t U z a lo . U z a l o C h a ir p e r s o n is m y p r o je c t , i t ’s m y b a b y b e c a u s e i t w a s a p il o t p r o je c t w h e n w e i n tr o d u c e d t o s a y, w e w a n t t o s e e a ll p r o v i n c e s p r o d u c i n g c o n te n t i n t h e ir o w n l a n g u a g e s . S o , w h e n I a n d Page 161 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 p e o p l e w e r e fi g h t i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e y d i d n ’ t w a n t t h a t U z a l o . I t h i n k i f y o u w e r e r e a d in g n e w s p a p e r s C h a i r p e r s o n i f y o u r e a d n e w s p a p e r s C h a ir y o u r e a l iz e th a t a t c e r t a i n p o i n t t h e r e w a s h u l la b a l o o a b o u t U z a l o a n d s o o n . A n d I s a i d t o t h e t e a m o f th e S A B C , l e t u s g iv e t h e m a c h a n c e a n d s e e h o w t h i s b a b y w il l g r o w. C h a ir p e r s o n , w i t h i n t h r e e m o n th s U z a lo w a s l e a d i n g G e n e r a t i o n a n d o t h e r s o a p i e s . W h ic h m e a n s p e o p l e l o v e l o c a l c o n te n t . A s I’ m s p e a k i n g n o w U z a l o i s c o m p e t in g a m o n g s t th e t o p t h r e e . S o , w h ic h m e a n s l o c a l c o n t e n t i s le k k e r a n d w e a s S o u th A f r i c a n s w e m u s t in v e s t i n l o c a l c o n te n t , C h a i r p e r s o n . T h a t is 10 w h a t I w a n t t o s a y to y o u , C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M a y I j u s t r e fe r y o u to w h a t t h e in t e r i m b o a r d i n i ts r e p o r t s a y s ? It w il l b e i n t h e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e C C 3 2 a t p a g e s 5 , m a t te r s t h a t r e l a t e to t h e 9 0 /1 0 . It w i ll b e p a g e 5 , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Page 5? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a g e 5 . Ye s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Ye s . W h e r e t h e h e a d i n g i s , P e r f o r m a n c e R e v i e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u . B u t y o u r a t te n ti o n M r M o ts o e n e n g is d r a w n t o p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 . 2 D , C I b e g y o u r p a r d o n w h e r e t h e y s a y, The i n te r i m board to o k Page 162 of 174 the fo ll o w i n g decisions 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 r e v ie w e d t h e 9 0 /1 0 l o c a l c o n te n t d ir e c ti v e to a l ig n w i t h I C A S A r u l e s w i t h p a r ti c u la r r e f e r e n c e to t h o s e s t a ti o n s w h ic h s u ff e r e d a u d ie n c e a n d r e v e n u e l o s s . A n d t h e n i t p a g e 11 , C h a i r p a r a g r a p h 2 .1 .1 3 t h e s u b h e a d i n g is , E v a l u a t e fi n a n c i a l a n d l e g a l i m p li c a t io n s o f u n il a te r a l c h a n g e s t o p o li c y. It was e s t a b l is h e d that the 9 0 /1 0 lo c a l content d ir e c t iv e h a d a n e g a t iv e i m p a c t o n a u d ie n c e s a n d a d v e r t is i n g r e v e n u e o f s o m e r a d i o a n d T V s ta t io n s t o t a lli n g 1 8 3 m il li o n ( u n a u d i t e d ) i n t e l e v is io n a n d 2 9 m i ll io n ( u n a u d i t e d ) i n r a d i o . 10 T h e s e fi g u r e s e x c l u d e d t h e a d d i ti o n a l c o s ts o f 7 2 m il li o n f o r t h e r e p l a c e m e n t o f l o c a l c o n te n t a n d lo s s e s d u e to u n u s e d f o r e i g n r i g h ts a lr e a d y c o n tr a c t e d . T h e in t e r i m b o a r d h a s t a k e n a d e c is io n t o r e v e r s e th e 9 0 / 1 0 l o c a l c o n te n t d ir e c ti v e . T h e c o r p o r a t io n remains c o m p l ia n t and above with th e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f th e I C A S A r e g u l a ti o n s . T h a n k y o u . D o y o u w is h t o c o m m e n t ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, I t h in k C h a ir t h e b o a r d is m is le a d i n g t h e p u b l ic . T h e r e is n o w a y w h e r e l o c a l c o n t e n t c a n c a u s e r e v e n u e fo r S A B C . A s I h a v e a l l u d e d t o t h e is s u e t h a t lo c a l 20 c o n te n t g e n e r a t e s m o r e r e v e n u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n c a n c a u s e r e v e n u e l o s s ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : S o r r y, C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n t h e r e is n o w a y lo c a l c o n te n t c o u l d c a u s e revenue loss for SABC? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h e r e is n o w a y C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 163 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u m e a n , j a . MR HLAUDI MOTSO ENENG: T h e r e is n o w a y b e c a u s e l o c a l c o n t e n t C h a ir p e r s o n , w h e n w e i n tr o d u c e l o c a l c o n te n t w e l l , I m u s t b e h o n e s t C h a ir. S o m e o f a d v e r ti s e r s t h e y w e r e n o t h a p p y b u t th e y w e r e n o t e v e n h a p p y e v e n w h e n w e w e r e s ti ll h a v i n g t h a t c o n t e n t t h a t w e w e r e h a v i n g a t t h e S A B C . S o , a f t e r i n tr o d u c i n g lo c a l c o n t e n t w e w e n t t o s e e a ll t h e s e a d v e r t is e r s a n d w e , i t w a s p u b lic k n o w le d g e b e c a u s e i t w a s o n m e d i a , i t w a s o n t e le v is i o n w h e r e w e e n g a g e d th e m t h e r e i n d o o r s . To s a y t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o i n v e s t i n lo c a l c o n t e n t i t c a n ’ t b e c o r r e c t . 10 T h e is s u e t h a t I’ m t h i n k in g C h a i r p e r s o n t h e y d o n ’ t k n o w th e S A B C y o u h a v e a s a l e s d i v is i o n . Th e i r w o r k i s to s e ll t h e S A B C t h e v a lu e o f th e S A B C a n d w h e n t h e y s e l l t h i s v a l u e o f t h e S A B C m o s t o f t h e ti m e t h e y g iv e d is c o u n t . I f y o u g iv e d is c o u n t w h ic h m e a n s y o u d o n ’t v a l u e y o u r o w n S A B C b e c a u s e I v a l u e S A B C v e r y h ig h ly s o . I f y o u d o n ’t g iv e th e m d is c o u n t b e c a u s e w h e n p e o p le w a n t m o n e y, t h e y w a n t q u ic k m o n e y. S o , t h e y w i ll s a y 1 0 0 m i ll io n is c o m i n g t o m o r r o w b u t y o u l o s e h a l f o f 1 0 0 m il li o n . S o , fo r m e i s th e y d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h e b u s i n e s s . W h y S A B C d i d n ’ t c o l la p s e w h e n I w a s t h e r e a n d th e p r e v io u s b o a r d s ? B e c a u s e C h a ir I c a n a t te s t t o y o u . I f y o u l o o k th e f i n a n c i a ls o f t h e S A B C y o u w i ll 20 r e a l iz e t h a t f r o m 2 0 0 8 u n ti l 2 0 1 6 e s p e c ia ll y 2 0 1 3 C h a ir p e r s o n w e i m p r o v e d a l o t . It w a s a r o u n d b il li o n , b il li o n , b i ll io n . W h e n I le f t a t t h e S A B C i t w a s 8 8 1 c a s h i n t h e b a n k a n d t h a t is w h e r e t h e y c o m e i n . W h e n t h e y c o m e in C h a ir p e r s o n , if y o u h a v e 8 8 1 c a s h in t h e b a n k , th e y ju s t k n o w th e r e is m o n e y b u t th e y d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t t h e y n e e d t o d o t o make sure that they increase the m o n e y. Page 164 of 174 Because that money 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e fi n a n c i a l s t h e y a r e a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s . I s a w w h e n t h e b o a r d w h e n t h e y w e r e p r e s e n t i n g a n d t h e GCO they were t a lk i n g about h e a r s a y. They were t e l li n g th e C o m m i s s i o n a b o u t th e ir o w n v ie w s . T h e y d i d n ’ t p r o d u c e t h e r e p o r t C h a ir p e r s o n . I f y o u g o t h r o u g h t h o s e li e s y o u w il l s e e t h a t S A B C fi n a n c i a l ly h a s b e e n d o i n g v e r y w e l l. A n d w h e n y o u c h e c k C h a i r p e r s o n if y o u h a v e 8 8 1 m i ll io n t o r u n S A B C t o o p e r a t e y o u n e e d 6 0 0 m i ll io n . B u t t h o s e w h e n y o u c l o s e t h e fi n a n c i a l s th e y a r e a u d it e d , e v e r y t h i n g i s d o n e . N o w y o u h a v e 8 8 1 m i lli o n . W h a t d o y o u n e e d to d o ? I c a l l c y c l e . 10 Yo u h a v e th e f ir s t c y c l e w h e r e y o u n e e d t o r e c o v e r b e c a u s e n o w y o u h a v e p a i d e v e r y th in g . N o w y o u h a v e 8 0 0 m il li o n . Yo u m u s t m a k e s u r e w h e n y o u c o m e to J u n e a t l e a s t y o u h a v e c o v e r e d t h a t a m o u n t . W h e n i t c o m e s t o S e p t e m b e r y o u a r e a r o u n d 1 .1 b ill i o n / 1 .2 b i ll io n . Th a t is h o w w e h a v e b e e n r u n n i n g S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n . I t ’s t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e b u s i n e s s . T h e y d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h e b u s i n e s s C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t i s my v ie w t h a t I w i ll s u b m i t th a t n o , t h e s e p e o p le t h e y d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t t h e y ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t C h a ir p e r s o n . E v e n i f C h a ir p e r s o n th e y c a n b e g iv e n b a il o u t , t h e y ’ ll n e v e r t a k e S A B C a n y w h e r e b e c a u s e C h a ir p e r s o n w h y d o y o u ju s t w a n t t o e a t , e a t, e a t y o u d o n ’ t t h i n k ? In t h e b o a r d 20 m e e ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e m i n u t e s a r e t h e r e w il l a t t e s t t o th a t . I s a id , w h y d o w e w a n t b a il o u t fr o m g o v e r n m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n ? I t’s w r i t t e n i n t h e m i n u te s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d r e a s o n b e i n g C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I c a m e a t t h e S A B C n o w I ’ m t a lk i n g a s a n a c ti n g C O O . I r e a li z e d t h a t p e o p l e t h e y d o n ’t u s e th e ir o w n th in k i n g a n d i n n o v a ti o n t o d e a l w i th is s u e s . B e c a u s e w h e n I c a m e C h a ir p e r s o n th e f i n a n c i a l s w e r e b a d a n d I’ m n o t Page 165 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t a k i n g c r e d i t a s a n i n d iv i d u a l . I’ m t a k in g c r e d i t w i th t h e t e a m i n th e p r e v i o u s b o a r d s b u t I h a d c o m e w it h i n n o v a t io n C h a ir p e r s o n h o w t o m a k e s u r e th a t S A B C is s u s t a i n a b l e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w it h t h a t m a y b e in t h e m o r n i n g b e c a u s e I t h in k t h e r e i s a p a r a g r a p h w h e r e y o u d e a l . T h e r e i s m i n u t e s w h e r e i t’s d e a l t w i t h a b o u t y o u h a v i n g r a is e d fu n d s f o r t h e S A B C . S o , w e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i th a l l o f t h o s e . I t h i n k t h a t a ls o f a ll s w i th i n w h a t y o u c a l l y o u r in n o v a ti o n s . B u t f o r n o w, l e t’s j u s t d e a l w i t h a n o th e r b i g p o lic y c h a n g e . 10 M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : S o r r y, C h a ir A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h r o u g h y o u , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, y e s . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : I j u s t b e f o r e b e c a u s e I’ m g o in g to f o r g e t t h is o n e C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Al r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI MOTSOENENG: O n t h e s a m e m a t t e r C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u k n o w t h e w e a k n e s s th e r e a t t h e S A B C a l s o i t w a s p e o p l e w il l p r o je c t 20 lo s s a n d a l s o i f y o u g o t o th e m i n u t e s C h a ir p e r s o n , I r e f u s e S A B C t o p r o j e c t l o s s . B e c a u s e i f y o u p r o je c t lo s s , w h a t a r e y o u s a y in g ? Yo u a r e s a y in g l e t ’s c o l la p s e , l e t ’s c l o s e th e s h o p . S o , th o s e I ’ m ju s t s a y in g . T h o s e a r e th e i s s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w e m u s t t h i n k a b o u t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , y o u s a y th a t w il l b e d e a l t w i th t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g ? Page 166 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t o m o r r o w C h a ir. Ye s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir, I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r I s h o u l d s t a r t b u t w e s til l h a v e 1 5 m i n u t e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t’s tr y a n d u s e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d u s e i t . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Because yesterday we, was it yesterday? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , w e fi n i s h e d e a r l y. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourned about 15h40. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , l e t ’s tr y a n d g o . ADV THANDI M o ts o e n e n g , NORMAN can we SC: also And deal make w i th ti m e . a n o th e r Th a n k change you. th a t Mr you i m p l e m e n te d a s th e C O O . Yo u m u s t h a v e h e a r d th e jo u r n a l is ts t h a t’s t e s ti fi e d i n c l u d i n g , t h e s e a r e m a t t e r s th a t w o u ld r e l a t e t o t h e S A B C 8 i f y o u r e c a l l a b o u t t h e c h a n g e th a t v io l e n t p r o t e s ts w e r e n o t t o b e c o v e r e d . T h e y h a v e t e s ti fi e d t o t h e C h a ir th a t t h e y f e l t t h a t w a s in t e r fe r e n c e w i th n e w s a n d t h a t w a s s o m e t h i n g th a t t h e y f r o w n e d u p o n a n d y o u w o u l d h a v e l is t e n e d t o a ll o f t h e i r e v i d e n c e . I n f a c t , I t h in k o n e 20 o f t h e w i t n e s s e s c a t e g o r iz e d i t a s a m a t t e r t h a t w a s k i n d o f tr e a s o n o u s b e c a u s e i n o t h e r w o r d s y o u a r e s a y in g t o th e p u b l ic , I ’ m n o t g o i n g t o s h o w y o u e x a c t ly w h a t ’s h a p p e n i n g b u t I w il l c o n c e a l t h a t fr o m y o u . C o u ld y o u j u s t te s ti fy t o t h a t ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : W i t h p l e a s u r e , C h a ir. C h a ir p e r s o n I th i n k p e o p l e w h e n w e t a lk a b o u t m e d i a , th e y c o n fu s e is s u e s . I d id h e a r w h e n Page 167 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h e y w e r e te s t i fy in g to s a y I w a s in t e r f e r i n g . I t w a s m y j o b t o i n t e r fe r e . I d o n ’t C h a ir p e r s o n I j u s t w a n t to d e m o n s tr a t e . I t w a s m y j o b t o i n t e r fe r e b e c a u s e t h e ir a r g u m e n t is , t h e y a r e i n d e p e n d e n t. T h e q u e s t i o n w e n e e d to ask Chairperson, independent to who if they are independent b e c a u s e i n d e p e n d e n c y it is a n o r g a n i z a ti o n . I t ’s n o t m e a s a n in d i v i d u a l . I t is a n o r g a n iz a t i o n i n d e p e n d e n t . In t h e B r o a d c a s ti n g A c t, C h a ir p e r s o n i t ’s c l e a r t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f a b r o a d c a s t e r, a l l r e broadcasters not i n d iv id u a l and when it comes these v is u a l s C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t is h a p p e n i n g i n S o u t h A f r i c a b e c a u s e I 10 w a n t to d e m o n s tr a t e C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e v i s u a ls , w h a t w e s e e to d a y i s b e c a u s e o f h o w m e d i a c o v e r t h e s e r i o ts t h a t i s h a p p e n in g i n S o u t h A fr ic a . A n d i f y o u c h e c k t h e N ig e r ia n s a r e t a k in g b u s i n e s s p e o p l e i n N i g e r i a , w h a t c a u s e t h a t? W h e n th e y s a w i t o n o u r t e l e v is i o n . C h a ir p e r s o n , my v i e w o n t h e v is u a ls y o u c a n s h o w t h e v is u a ls b u t t h e r e a r e c e r ta i n v i s u a l s th a t y o u c a n ’ t s h o w. T h e ir is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n is n o , t h e j o u r n a l is t s h o u l d b e c r e a ti v e , i n d e p e n d e n c e . Th e B r o a d c a s t in g A c t t h e y d o n ’t ta lk a b o u t j o u r n a li s t b e in g i n d e p e n d e n t a s j o u r n a li s t. A n d m y v ie w o n in d e p e n d e n c e C h a ir p e r s o n i s th a t y o u s h o u l d n o t b e in f lu e n c e d b y o t h e r f o r c e s m a y b e o u ts i d e b u t i n te r n a ll y C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u k n o w 20 p e o p l e i n te r f e r e to m e a s t h e C O O . T h e y i n te r f e r e i n m y w o r k . T h e y w i ll t e ll m e h e r e w e th in k y o u a r e w r o n g o r w e t h i n k h e r e b u t I d o n ’ t t a k e i t a s a n in t e r f e r e n c e . I t a k e a s p e o p l e w h o a r e a s s i s t i n g m e t o d o w h a t w e a r e s u p p o s e d to d o a t t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e th e B r o a d c a s t in g A c t, C h a ir is a g a i n s t th e g l a m o r iz in g v io l e n c e . I t ’s t h e r e in t h e B r o a d c a s ti n g Ac t a n d i t is u n l a w f u l . I t is n o t m e . I n t h e Br o a d c a s ti n g Page 168 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A c t i t s a y s i t is u n l a w f u l t o th e g l a m o r iz i n g v i o l e n c e C h a ir p e r s o n . S o , m y v i e w i s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t d e c i s i o n t h a t I h a v e t a k e n o r w e h a v e t a k e n a t t h e S A B C w e w e r e w i t h i n t h e Br o a d c a s ti n g A c t b e c a u s e t h a t’s w h a t th e B r o a d c a s ti n g Ac t s a y s . Th a t k n o w w h e n w e d e a l w i t h b r o a d c a s t in g , w e m u s t b e v e r y c a r e fu l a b o u t s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t w e a r e d o i n g . C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o n ’ t b e li e v e t h a t y o u s h o u l d g o a n d b u r n a li b r a r y a t W i ts U n iv e r s i ty. W h e r e a r e o u r c h i l d r e n g o i n g t o l e a r n i f y o u b u r n a li b r a r y ? B e c a u s e f o r u s a s S o u t h A f r ic a i t s e e m s a s if w e w a n t t o p r o d u c e m o n s t e r s in m y v ie w C h a ir p e r s o n . B e c a u s e i f y o u c h e c k 10 C h a ir p e r s o n , S o u t h A fr ic a w h a t is n e w s i s b a d . B a d n e w s is n e w s t h a t is o c c u p y i n g e v e r y t h i n g . W h y a r e w e n o t p r o d u c in g r o le m o d e ls ? W h y t h e jo u r n a l is ts a r e n o t g o i n g a n d t a lk to p e o p le w h o a r e d o i n g w e l l fo r t h e c o m m u n i ty ? I ’ m ju s t g iv i n g y o u e x a m p l e s C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C a n I j u s t i n te r r u p t j u s t o n th a t? H o w w o u ld y o u w a n t i t t o b e c o v e r e d ? I f th e W i ts is b e i n g b u r n e d d o w n , h o w w o u ld y o u i n te r ms o f y o u r p o l ic y h o w w o u l d y o u h a v e e x p e c te d jo u r n a li s ts to c o v e r t h a t s t o r y ? M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h e y c a n c o v e r t h e s t o r y. I d o n ’ t h a v e a p r o b le m w i t h t h e m c o v e r i n g t h e s t o r y b u t le t ’s t a k e a b u r n e x a m p l e 20 C h a ir p e r s o n w h ic h I c la r i fy t o m e d i a g e n e r a l n o t e v e n S A B C w o r k e r s . I s a i d , n o l o o k l e t’s ta k e Vu y a n i . P e o p l e g o a n d b u r n a s c h o o l . Yo u d o n ’ t know who is inside the school. Te l e v is io n th e s e days is li v e C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u c a n s e e p e o p le w a lk i n g a r o u n d b e i n g b u r n e d o n t e l e v i s i o n . W e m u s t n o t a l lo w th a t t o h a p p e n C h a i r p e r s o n . E v e n h e r e i n A l e x a n d r a , t h a t b u r n p e o p l e w e r e fo u n d t h e r e , C h a ir p e r s o n . I’ m s a y in g Page 169 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 w h e n I w a s d e a li n g w i t h t h e i s s u e , C h a i r p e r s o n i n c lu d in g my s e l f a n d J o e T l o l o e a n d N t a te J o e T lo l o e a n d I r e s p e c t h i m . W e w e n t a n d d e b a te d t h is is s u e o f v is u a ls . I s a id , n o m y i s s u e is t h e p h y s i c a li ty o f s h o w i n g t h o s e v is u a ls . Yo u c a n s h o w th e b u il d i n g b u t I d o n ’t t h in k e v e r y d a y w e m u s t w a tc h b u i ld i n g , p e o p l e h a v e b u r n e d a b u il d i n g , p e o p l e a r e k i ll in g e a c h o th e r a n d I ’ m a l ig n e d w it h t h e B r o a d c a s ti n g Ac t . C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t a n y o n e w h o w ill s a y th e B r o a d c a s ti n g A c t is t a l k i n g d i ff e r e n t ly fr o m w h a t I ’ m s a y i n g b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e p o r ti o n e v e n i n m y a ffi d a v i t t h a t I’ m r e f e r r i n g t o . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d I t h in k t h a t p o r ti o n is i n p a r a g r a p h 4 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t w h e r e y o u a r e q u o t in g t h e c o n d u c t f o r b r o a d c a s ti n g li c e n s e s r e g u l a ti o n s o f 2 0 0 9 . Is t h a t t h e o n e ? M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h ic h is , T h e b r o a d c a s ti n g s e r v ic e li c e n s e s m u s t n o t b r o a d c a s t m a t e r i a l w h ic h j u d g e d w i th i n c o n t e x t a . c o n ta in s v i o l e n c e w h ic h d o e s n o t p l a y a n in t e g r a l r o le i n d e v e l o p in g th e p lo t c h a r a c te r o r t h e m e o f t h e m a t e r i a l a s a w h o le o r s a n c t io n s o r p r o m o t e s o r g l a m o r iz e s v i o l e n c e o r u n l a w fu l 20 conduct. M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t ’s t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u a r e m a k i n g ? M R H LA U D I M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t i s t h e p o i n t , C h a ir. T h a t is th e p o in t t h a t I d e m o n s tr a te d t o t h e S A B C p e r s o n n e l . To s a y, a s a p u b li c broadcaster because they compare them with a private broadcaster or Page 170 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 m e d i a g e n e r a l o u ts id e . I n t h e ir m i n d s t h e y a r e in d e p e n d e n t b e c a u s e they are media but we are guided by the Broadcasting Act. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . B u t t h e n e v e n t a k in g t h a t e x a m p l e t h a t y o u ’ v e g iv e n . S o , w h a t i t m e a n s t h a t t h e p u b l ic t h e n i f s u p p o s in g t h a t y o u a r e c o r r e c t in y o u r in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f w h a t t h e r e g u l a ti o n s s a y a n d s u p p o s i n g t h a t y o u h a v e u s e d t h e c o r r e c t , i t w o u ld m e a n t h a t a jo u r n a li s t w o u l d g o a n d c o v e r a s t o r y. T h a t s to r y w i th o u t a n y o n e ’s p l a n t u r n s o r t h e s it u a ti o n t u r n s v i o l e n t a n d b u i ld in g s a r e b u r n t d o w n . If o n e w e r e to l o o k a t w h a t y o u s u g g e s ti n g th e n t h a t j o u r n a l is t m u s t s i m p l y 10 c o v e r th e a s p e c t w h e r e th e r e is n o v i o l e n c e a n d t h e n w a lk a w a y fr o m t h e s c e n e . M e a n in g t h e n t h e p u b l ic w o u l d n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d , w h a t s it u a ti o n d e v e l o p e d fr o m t h e in i ti a l s t o r y. MR HLAUDI MOTSOEN ENG: My in t e r p r e ta t io n is d i ff e r e n t. My in t e r p r e t a ti o n is y o u c a n s h o w t h e v i s u a ls b u t y o u s h o u l d b e s e le c t iv e w h a t k in d o f v is u a ls t h a t y o u a r e g o in g to s h o w p e o p le . Yo u c a n r e p o r t a b o u t p e o p l e t o y i t o y i n g b u t C h a ir p e r s o n i n m y u n d e r s t a n d in g I m a y b e w r o n g a n d I k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w ill c o r r e c t m e w h e n y o u d e a l w i t h y o u r f i n d i n g s . I m a y b e w r o n g b e c a u s e I ’ m n o t e v e n a l a w y e r b u t i t ’s ju s t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h a t I’ m u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d t h a t p o i n t . A c t u a ll y, 20 w e r e n o t e v e n s u p p o s e d t o g la m o r i z e t h is v i o l e n c e . I t i s u n l a w fu l b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t t h e A c t s a y s t h e r e , C h a ir p e r s o n . I t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g b u t a s a h u m a n b e i n g C h a ir m a n n o w u b u n t u . A s a h u m a n b e i n g , a s a n A fr i c a n y o u k n o w A f r ic a n s , w e , I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I k n o w t h e y s a id , n o I s a i d to th e m A m e r ic a . I t is tr u e . A m e r i c a t h e r e is p o v e r t y C h a ir p e r s o n . A m e r i c a e v e n w h e n t h e p la n e , y o u k n o w Page 171 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 t h a t p la n e y o u k n o w is n o r m a l . W h a t y o u s e e th e r e , C h a ir p e r s o n y o u ju s t s e e k w i b u t th e y d o n ’ t s h o w y o u . T h e y h i d e it . S o , f o r s o m e o w n t h e ir o w n r e a s o n b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t w a n t t o g e t i n v o l v e d t h e r e . B u t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n I’m just d e a li n g with what the la w says in my u n d e r s t a n d in g . I ’ m n o t a la w y e r b u t t h a t is . I m a y b e r i g h t, I m a y b e w r o n g b u t th a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Yo u a r e e x p la i n i n g h o w y o u , w h a t i n f o r m s y o u r v ie w o n t h e is s u e . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e e x p l a i n i n g . M R H L A U D I M O T S O E N E N G : A n d my v ie w C h a ir p e r s o n i s S o u th A f r i c a o r A f r ic a w e c a n ’ t r e a l ly j u s t b e c a u s e t h is e n c o u r a g e s C h a ir p e r s o n . I t ’s a , I w a s a j o u r n a li s t C h a ir p e r s o n . W h e n y o u g o w i th c a m e r a s , e v e n t h e s e j o u r n a li s ts t h e y w i ll te ll y o u h e r e . W h e n y o u g o w it h c a m e r a s e s p e c i a l ly w h e n y o u a r e k n o w n , th e y k n o w y o u t h e y d o s o m e s t u ff . S t o n e s , e v e r y th i n g j u s t h a p p e n s . C h a i r p e r s o n , w e s h o u l d n o t r e a ll y e n c o u r a g e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n . I’ m j u s t t a lk i n g f r o m , n o t fr o m t h e p o i n t o f v ie w o f t h e S A . P e r s o n a l ly, t h a t i s w h a t I d o n ’ t t h i n k b e c a u s e I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n e s p e c i a l ly S A B C w e s h o u l d m a k e s u r e th a t w e b a la n c e t h e 20 s t o r ie s . B u t w e d o n ’ t r e a l ly p u t a ll t h e s e v i s u a l s t h a t a r e b a d f o r th e c o u n tr y. E v e n I ’ m h a p p y C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e p r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n t r y c u r r e n tly a g r e e s w i t h m e . M in is t e r N a l e d i P a n d o r a g r e e s w i t h m e w h ic h m e a n s n o w t h e y a r e f o l l o w in g m e b e c a u s e t h i s i s w h a t I h a v e b e e n s a y in g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . O n t h a t n o te , C h a ir i t ’s n o w 4 Page 172 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 o ’c l o c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: May we then adjourn for the day? CHAIRPERSON: W h a t’s y o u r e s t i m a ti o n o f h o w lo n g w e s h o u ld b e t o m o r r o w w it h M r M o ts o e n e n g ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir, w e s h o u l d fi n is h in t w o h o u r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n tw o h o u r s ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n h o w m a n y w i t n e s s e s h a v e y o u li n e d u p fo r 10 tomorrow other than him? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I’ m s o r r y, C h a ir. C h a ir m ig h t I j u s t? C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Tw o . W e ’v e g o t a f t e r Mr M o ts o e n e n g w e c o u l d m o v e a n o t h e r w it n e s s . T h e n w e c a n h a v e t w o m o r e w i t n e s s e s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e o t h e r s b r i e f w it n e s s e s ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , C h a ir. Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t w e r e y o u g o i n g t o s u g g e s t , C h a ir ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . I w a s ju s t t h i n k in g w h e t h e r i f w e s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k w e w o u l d b e fi n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h , w h e t h e r w e s h o u l d s t a r t. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I th in k l e t’s s ta r t a t 1 0 o ’c l o c k , y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i ll b e fi n e , C h a ir y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, j a . Page 173 of 174 10 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 160 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. W e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y a n d t h e n w e w il l p r o c e e d t o m o r r o w. W e w il l s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’c lo c k t o m o r r o w. S o , y o u w i ll c o m e b a c k M r M o t s o e n e n g to m o r r o w m o r n i n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 11 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9 Page 174 of 174