C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 11 F E B R U A R Y 2 0 2 0 D AY 2 11 20 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 11 F E B R U A R Y 2 0 2 0 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ys are we ready? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y y o u … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms M e m e la w e w e r e a t th e e n d o f y e s t e r d a y ’s 10 e v i d e n c e d e a l in g w i t h y o u r i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h e v a r i o u s c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r s fo r S A AT a n d th e o n e p o i n t I w a n t t o p ic k u p o n i s M s S a m b o p r o v i d e d t o t h e c o m m i s s io n a s e r i e s o f W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a t i o n s b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d h e r. Yo u w i ll f i n d t h e m i n D D 1 8 a n d y o u c a n p i c k it u p a t p a g e 5 3 2 . E x h i b i t D D 1 8 p a g e 5 3 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms M e m e l a a r e y o u fi n e t h is m o r n i n g ? M S M E M E L A : I a m o k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t y o u – y o u d i d n o t l o o k f i n e t o m e . MS MEMELA: Oh. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . 20 MS M EM ELA: Page? C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u a b l e t o fi n d t h e b u n d l e ? D D 1 8 . MS M EM ELA: Ja the bundle is here. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : evidence was that you And page 532. denied h a v in g in f o r m a ti o n o n a f la s h d i s k , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 2 of 217 Ms M e m e l a y e s te r d a y y o u r g iv e n Ms Sambo p r ic i n g 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M E M E L A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a i f y o u w il l j u s t t u r n o n y o u r m ic r o p h o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r m ic r o p h o n e . MS M EM ELA: Oh. Thanks. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : record. S o l e t m e ju s t a s k t h e q u e s ti o n a g a in f o r t h e Yo u r e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y w a s t h a t y o u d e n ie d g iv i n g p r ic i n g in f o r m a ti o n t o M s S a m b o o n a f la s h d i s c , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S M E M E L A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u g iv e p r ic i n g i n fo r m a ti o n to h e r r e l e v a n t t o t h e t e n d e r s a t a n y o t h e r p o i n t? M S M E M E L A : A s I s a id C h a ir y e s t e r d a y t h a t i t w il l b e r e l e v a n t p r ic i n g fr o m th e m a r k e t – o n t h e m a r k e t th a t t i m e . Fo r in s ta n c e l ik e in f o r m a t io n t h a t i s – is k n o w n to u s a t p r o c u r e m e n t n o t b e c a u s e i t i s c o m i n g fr o m t h e C F S T. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y s o le t m e j u s t g e t c le a r. Yo u d o a d m i t t o g iv i n g p r ic i n g i n fo r m a t i o n t o Ms S a m b o , i s t h a t r ig h t ? M S M E M E L A : N o I a m n o t a d m i t ti n g . I a m s a y in g i t w o u l d n o t b e th e p r i c i n g i n fo r m a ti o n th a t i s c o m i n g f r o m t h e C F S T t h e b i d e v a l u a t io n 20 committee. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : s p e c i f ic q u e s t io n . B u t M s M e m e l a w e n e e d t o f o c u s o n th e We can break it up if we may in due course? But fir s t o f a l l w h a t i s y o u r v e r s i o n o n w h e t h e r a t a n y p o i n t y o u g a v e p r ic i n g in f o r m a ti o n t o M s S a m b o ? MS MEMELA: C h a ir I s a i d I d o n o t r e m e m b e r g iv i n g M r S a m b o – M s Page 3 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 S a m b o a n y i n f o r m a t io n o n t h e t e n d e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S M E M E L A : P r ic i n g i n f o r m a ti o n . A n d C h a ir ju s t to a d d t h e r e . Th e s e W h a t s A p p m e s s a g e s t h i s is t h e f ir s t ti m e I s e e t h e m t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : S o lik e – li k e t h e m e m o r y s t ic k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t – I a m n o t s u r e o f t h e a u t h e n t ic i ty o f t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . M S M E M E L A : I w o u ld lik e m y l a w y e r t o i n t e r v e n e ja . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e . W e ll s h e w ill a s k y o u q u e s ti o n s a n d w e w i ll s e e i f y o u a r e a b le t o a n s w e r o r i f t h e r e is a n y p r o b l e m . M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s M b a n j w a . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I j u s t w a n t t o d r a w th e a tt e n ti o n o f th e C h a ir to t h e f a c t t h a t th e s e s m s ’s o r W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s w e h a v e t h e s a m e o b j e c ti o n t h a t w e h a d to t h e a l le g e d 20 in f o r m a ti o n fr o m th e fl a s h d i s k . B e c a u s e w e d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h is in f o r m a ti o n is t h e g e n u i n e i n fo r m a ti o n th a t w a s d o w n lo a d e d . S o b e f o r e c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o r a s k i n g q u e s t io n o n t h is i n fo r m a t i o n w e w o u l d b e h a p p y if w e c a n b e g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o m a k e a n a p p l ic a t i o n s o t h a t w e c a n t e s t t h e a u t h e n t ic i t y th e r e o f. And in a way Chair I am not m a k i n g t h i s r e q u e s t o n a n u g ly b a s i s . I w a s p h o n e d t h is m o r n i n g b y Page 4 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 s o m e o n e w h o s a id t h e r e i s i n fo r m a t i o n w h ic h s h e k n o w s w a s a t C I P R O in a p a r tic u la r fo r m a t a n d i t s e e m s a s i f t h a t in f o r m a t io n h a s b e e n t a m p e r e d w i t h . I t is n o t c o n c e r n i n g t h i s m a t t e r o f M s M e m e l a b u t I a m ju s t s a y i n g th a t it s e e m s a s i f i n t h e s e m a t t e r s w h e r e t h e r e i s e l e c tr o n ic e v i d e n c e t h e r e a r e p r o b le m s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o I d o n o t th in k i t i s a m a t t e r fo r a n o b j e c t io n . M s H o f m e y r m a y p u t q u e s t io n s to M s M e m e l a o n th e W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s b u t y o u d o h a v e – y o u w il l b e g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o m a k e w h a t e v e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d c h a l l e n g e t h e v a l id i ty i n d u e c o u r s e i f y o u 10 w a n t t o c h a l le n g e a n y t h in g . B u t s h e w il l b e a b le t o s a y, I a m a b l e t o a n s w e r t h is b e c a u s e I k n o w I h a v e n e v e r s e n t s u c h a m e s s a g e o r s h e w i ll s a y, I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r I s e n t a m e s s a g e a n d t h e n w e w i ll take it from there. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a I w o u ld j u s t li k e to p ic k u p o n th e p o i n t th a t y o u m a d e a m o m e n t a g o t h a t t h is i s t h e fi r s t t i m e y o u a r e s e e i n g t h e s e W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s . MS MEMELA: Hm. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r e c e iv e d R u le 3 . 3 N o t ic e s m o r e t h a n 1 6 d a y s b e f o r e M s S a m b o w a s g o in g to te s t if y t h a t s h e w a s g o i n g to t e s ti fy. D i d y o u n o t ? M S M E M E L A : I d id C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e s e m e s s a g e s w e r e n o t p a r t o f that. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . Page 5 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n t h a t n o t ic e y o u w e r e n o t i fi e d th a t o n e o f y o u r r ig h ts w a s t o b e p r e s e n t d u r i n g h e r e v i d e n c e w h ic h w a s g o i n g to c o m m e n c e o n Tu e s d a y l a s t w e e k , d o y o u r e c a l l s e e i n g t h a t i n t h e n o t ic e ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s I r e c a l l t h a t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And when you began your evidence you in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u h a d fo ll o w e d s o m e o f t h e e v i d e n c e l a s t w e e k , is th a t correct? 10 M S M E M E L A : I fo ll o w e d s o m e o f t h e e v i d e n c e – w h a t d o y o u m e a n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e o f t h e e v id e n c e p r e s e n t e d b y M s S a m b o ? M S M E M E L A : I fo ll o w e d it ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e is s a y in g w h e n y o u b e g a n y o u r e v id e n c e . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : L a s t w e e k y o u s a i d t h a t y o u h a d f o ll o w e d s o m e o f M s S a m b o ’s e v i d e n c e . M S M E M E L A : Ye s I h a d g o n e t h r o u g h s o m e o f th e a t t a c h m e n t s t h a t I r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e c o m m i s s io n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h I t h o u g h t y o u i n d ic a te d th a t y o u h a d w a t c h e d s o m e o f t h e e v id e n c e fr o m h o m e ? MS M EM ELA: No I did not. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n o t. MS MEMELA: I e v e n s a i d C h a ir y e s te r d a y I h e a r d f r o m p e o p l e t h a t w e r e ta lk in g t h a t th e – s h e is ta lk in g a b o u t a c e r t a in m e m o r y s t ic k t h a t Page 6 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 s h e h a s e v e n t u a ll y f o u n d . J a t h a t is w h a t I h e a r d . A n d th e r e a s o n w h y I d e c i d e d n o t t o w a tc h M s S a m b o ’s v i d e o b e fo r e I c o m e t o t e s t if y i t w a s b e c a u s e I d i d n o t w a n t t o d is tr a c t m y s e lf e m o t io n a l ly. I w a n te d t o p r e p a r e a n d n o t fo c u s o n h e r a s s e r ti o n s . S o I th o u g h t I w il l w a tc h h e r v id e o s o n ly w h e n I c o m e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a y o u s e e t h e c h a l le n g e I h a v e w i t h t h a t is th a t o n W e d n e s d a y l a s t w e e k y o u c o m m u n i – Ms S a m b o s ta r t e d 10 her evidence on Tu e s d a y and she c o n t in u e d her e v id e n c e on W e d n e s d a y. A n d o n t h e a f t e r n o o n o f W e d n e s d a y l a s t w e e k y o u s e n t a n e m a i l to t h e c o m m is s i o n i n d ic a ti n g th a t y o u d i d n o t i n t e n d t o a p p e a r f o r y o u r e v i d e n c e o n Fr id a y. So how could it have been that you were u s i n g t h a t t i m e to p r e p a r e f o r y o u r e v i d e n c e w h e n y o u r c o m m u n ic a ti o n t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n o n W e d n e s d a y w a s t h a t y o u d id n o t in t e n d t o appear? M S M E M E L A : C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e i f M s H o f m e y r li s te n s to m e w h e n I s p e a k . I d id n o t s a y I u s e d t h a t t i m e t o p r e p a r e fo r e v i d e n c e . I s a id t h e r e a s o n w h y I c h o s e n o t t o w a tc h M s S a m b o ’s v i d e o s w a s t o e n s u r e 20 t h a t I d o n o t d is tr a c t m y s e l f w h y I a m p r e p a r i n g – l o o k p r e p a r in g m y s e l f t o c o m e a n d a p p e a r h e r e . Ye s I h a v e s a i d o n T h u r s d a y I d o n o t k n o w w h ic h d a y d i d I s e n d m y e m a i l b e t w e e n W e d n e s d a y a n d Th u r s d a y t h a t I a m w a i ti n g f o r m y l a w y e r w h o is i n C a p e To w n a n d I h e a r d fr o m s o m e b o d y s a y i n g o k a y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d s a i d I w o u ld n e e d t o b e h e r e a n d t h e n I s e e i f I w il l a p p ly fo r p o s t p o n e m e n t a n d s tu ff . Th e n I Page 7 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 d e c i d e d o n t h a t la s t d a y t h a t I w il l b e c o m i n g t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hm. L e t u s g o to w h a t i s r e c o r d e d i n t h i s W h a t s a p p m e s s a g e a t p a g e 5 3 5 ? A n d th e p a r t t h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d i n is a f a i r ly lo n g m e s s a g e fr o m y o u r s e lf – i t i s i n d ic a t e d a s N o n ts a s a S A AT M e m e l a a n d i t is a g a in s t t h e … CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 535 Ms Hofmeyr? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s I m i g h t h a v e I m e a n t 5 3 2 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I -532? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e t h e r e l e v a n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n is , i s ju s t b e l o w h a l f w a y d o w n th e p a g e . Yo u w i ll s e e th e la s t d a te e n te r e d o n t h e le f t h a n d s i d e is 2 1 7 . 0 3 .2 0 a n d t h e t i m e i s a t 2 1 : 4 4 : 1 9 a n d t h e n it in d ic a t e s t h a t t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n c o m e s fr o m N o n t s a s a S A AT M e m e l a . A n d t h e n w h a t fo ll o w s is w h a t M s S a m b o s a i d in h e r e v id e n c e w a s a W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s h e r e c e i v e d fr o m y o u . I w o u ld li k e y o u t o m o v e d o w n t h a t to a b o u t a t h ir d o f th e w a y i n t h a t d i s c u s s io n b e c a u s e it is t h e r e t h a t it is r e c o r d e d in t h i s W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e u n d e r t h e n a m e o f N o n ts a s a S A AT M e m e l a t h a t t h e fo ll o w i n g a p p e a r s . 20 I t is E – i t b e g in s w it h t h e s e n te n c e “ e v e n b e fo r e t h a t ” , d o y o u s e e t h a t ? MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s a y s t h e r e : “ E v e n b e fo r e t h a t w h e n y o u w a n te d p r i c e i n f o fo r Cheryle I gave that to you.” M S M E M E L A : N o , n o , n o , w h e r e a r e y o u r e a d in g i t ? Page 8 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a r e i n t h e l a s t c o m m u n i c a t io n o n t h a t p a g e t h a t b e g i n s w it h 2 0 1 7 .0 3 . 2 0 ? M S M E M E L A : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: C a n I r e q u e s t s i n c e I h a v e n o t r e a d th e s e I w o u l d a s k M s H o f m e y r t o r e a d th e w h o le t h i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e ja . M S M E M E L A : J a b e c a u s e ja . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o w e s ta r ti n g in t h e l a s t o n e o n t h a t page. M S M E M E L A : I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d t h e b a c k g r o u n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s M e m e l a i t b e g i n s “ s o s h e s a i d ” t h i s i s y o u r c o m m u n ic a t i o n t o Ms S a m b o . “ S o s h e s a i d b y t h e ti m e y o u g o t t o h e r y o u w e r e ready to show her the info. W h ic h made her u n c o m f o r t a b l e b e c a u s e s h e s t a r t e d a s k in g h e r s e l f i f y o u h a d s h o w n i t to s o m e o n e e l s e . Yo u w e r e e v e n c o n te m p l a t i n g t o c a ll C i ty P r e s s t o g i v e t h e m t h e 20 in f o . N o w m y S is t e r a ll I w a n t t o k n o w is w h e n … ” C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t o n e s e c o n d Ms H o f m e y r d o n o t f o r g e t w h e r e y o u a r e . A r e y o u a b l e – h a v e y o u b e e n a b l e t o id e n t i fy w h e r e s h e i s – w h e r e s h e is r e a d i n g ? M S M E M E L A : I h a v e id e n ti fi e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a l r i g h t . O k a y. Page 9 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS M EM ELA: I have. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. L e t m e p i c k i t u p fr o m : “ N o w m y S is t e r a l l I w a n t t o k n o w is w h e n d id t h is become about me? When did I become your sudden enemy? A p p a r e n tly y o u s a i d to h e r, I a m t h e o n e w h o fo r c e d y o u n o t t o w o r k w i t h A A R . I was on s p e e d d i a l b e c a u s e e v e r y d e c is i o n y o u t o o k i t w a s m y a d v i c e . H ib o , I w a s r e a l ly s h o c k e d . A l l I e v e r d i d for you was to help. E v e n th e i n f o . Th a t y o u a r e u s i n g n o w w a s s e n t t o y o u in g o o d fa i th t o h e l p y o u . 10 E v e n b e fo r e th a t w h e n y o u w a n t e d p r ic e in f o f o r C h e r y l e I g a v e t h a t to y o u a s I n e v e r t h o u g h t y o u w o u ld o n e d a y p l a n t o u s e i t a g a in s t m e . ” L e t u s s to p t h e r e . T h a t a p p e a r s to b e a r e f e r e n c e t o y o u c o n f ir m in g t h a t y o u g a v e p r ic e in f o r m a t io n to M s S a m b o w h e n s h e w a n t e d i t f o r Cheryle. I a s s u m e t h a t is a r e f e r e n c e t o C h e r y l e J a c k s o n . Is t h a t correct? M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir i t l o o k s li k e t h a t b u t a t t h e s a m e ti m e a s I s a i d it m i g h t b e p r ic e i n f o r m a ti o n th a t a s is s t a n d a r d k n o w l e d g e fr o m S u p p l y 20 C h a in . S o I – i t is n o t p r ic e i n fo fr o m t h e C F S T a s I h a d i n d ic a te d e a r l ie r t h a t I d o n o t s i t i n C F S T. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w o u l d s h e b e u s i n g i t a g a i n s t y o u th e n ? CHAIRPERSON: Okay hang on one second. Ms Mbanjwa. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 10 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I m u s t o n c e m o r e r a is e m y s e r i o u s r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t t h e p r e ju d i c i a l n a t u r e o f th is i n f o r m a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : A p a r t fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t w e h a v e p l a c e d o n r e c o r d th e f a c t t h a t w e a r e n o t h a p p y w it h t h e a u t h e n t ic i t y w h e t h e r i t r e a l ly c a m e fr o m Ms M e m e l a . B u t th e r e is a s e c o n d p r o b l e m h e r e . T h e id e n t i fic a t io n o f th e in f o r m a ti o n . I t i s s a i d th a t y o u w a n t e d p r ic e i n f o f o r C h e r y l e . I b e li e v e t h a t i t w o u l d b e i n o u r b e s t i n te r e s t a n d r e m o v e t h e e l e m e n t o f p r e j u d ic e t o Ms M e m e l a . 10 I f Ms H o f m e y r c a n s a y, th is p r i c e in f o i t w a s p r i c e in f o th a t r e l a t e d t o w h a t ? B e c a u s e i f w e a r e t o r e - e x a m in e … CHAIRPERSON: N o b u t s h e is j u s t r e a d in g a n e m a i l t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s b e l ie v e c a m e f r o m h e r a n d a n e m a i l th a t M s S a m b o s a y s c a m e fr o m h e r. S h e is n o t ta lk in g a b o u t s o m e b o d y e ls e s h e i s ju s t r e a d in g w h a t i s h e r e a n d a s k i n g Ms M e m e l a t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s – y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Assuming… A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e – th e – t h i s c a m e f r o m h e r p h o n e . 20 A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : C h a ir w it h a ll r e s p e c t s I d o n o t w a n t t o b e a r g u m e n t a tiv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B u t I w o u l d lik e t o r e m in d C h a ir o f th e p r e f a c i n g s t a t e m e n t w h ic h s t a r te d y e s t e r d a y a n d w a s r e p e a te d to d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 11 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : It w a s s a i d t h a t y o u s h a r e d p r ic in g in f o r m a ti o n o f t h e t e n d e r s w i th th e b id d e r s . A n d n o w t o d a y M s H o f m e y r has a g a in in f o r m a ti o n ? said, are you denying that you shared th is p r ic in g S o t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g g iv e n t h e c o n t e x t t h a t h a s b e e n s a i d b y M s H o f m e y r is t h a t , th is is p r ic i n g i n fo r m a t i o n fo r th e t e n d e r s o r f o r th e b i d s w h ic h w e r e c u r r e n t ly i n o p e r a t io n . It is f o r th a t r e a s o n w h y w e a r e o f th e h u m b l e v i e w t h a t w e n e e d t o h a v e M s H o f m e y r s h e c a n id e n t i fy i t a n d s a y, t h i s w a s t h e p r ic in g in f o r m a ti o n th a t p e r ta in e d t o a s p e c i f ic b id . S o t h a t w h e n w e d e a l w i t h t h e q u e s ti o n i n r e - e x a m i n a t i o n 10 t h e n w e c a n b e a b l e t o d is p u te th a t a c t u a ll y a n d w h e n w e h a v e t h is in f o r m a ti o n w h ic h is a l l e g e d ly i n t h is f l a s h d i s k t h e n w e c a n c o m p a r e i f r e a l ly t h is i n f o r m a ti o n th a t is i n th e f l a s h d i s k is t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t w a s i n t h e s a i d te n d e r. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll M s H o f m e y r h a s h e a r d w h a t y o u s a y. in d i c a t e h o w s h e i n te n d s p r o c e e d i n g . S h e w il l It seems to be that you – you t h i n k th e r e i s s o m e u n c e r ta i n t y a b o u t w h e th e r th e i n f o r m a ti o n – p r i c e in f o r m a ti o n r e l a te s t o a s p e c i fic t e n d e r o r n o t . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s C h a ir. e l e m e n t o f p r e j u d ic e c o m e s i n . 20 A c tu a lly t h a t i s w h e r e t h e I t is b e c a u s e a s t a t e m e n t h a s b e e n m a d e t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t p e r t a i n s t o t e n d e r s a n d i t is p r ic in g in f o r m a ti o n w h i c h i s o b v io u s ly v e r y s e n s i tiv e i n fo r m a ti o n h a s b e e n shared by Ms Memela. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : In a ll f a ir n e s s t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n n e e d s t o b e i d e n t if i e d b e c a u s e I a m n o t g o i n g to b e in a p o s i ti o n t o r e - e x a m i n e if Page 12 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 I c a n n o t e v e n s a y w h a t p r ic in g i n f o r m a ti o n is ? B u t I th i n k C h a ir u n d e r s t a n d s m y d i ff ic u l ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t – I u n d e r s ta n d . W h a t – w h a t is c l e a r is th a t M s Memela is able to say – because I think she has said so. S h e w o u ld h a v e s h a r e d w i t h Ms S a m b o a n d I th in k s h e m a y h a v e s a i d w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e a s w e ll p a r ti c u l a r l y b l a c k o w n e d B B B E E e n t e r p r i s e s p r i c i n g in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s a v a il a b l e in t h e p u b l ic d o m a in a n d n o t s p e c i fi c p r i c i n g i n f o r m a t io n – n o t i n fo – p r ic i n g i n fo r m a t i o n s p e c i fic t o a p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r. 10 A n d it m a y b e b e c a u s e i f s h e i s a b l e t o s a y th a t maybe she takes care of that concern. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : R e g r e tt a b l e C h a ir a g a i n w it h o u t b e i n g a r g u m e n t a tiv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : I s e e th i n g s f r o m a d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c t iv e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : A n d t h a t p e r s p e c t iv e w it h a l l h u m il i ty i s t h is . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : I n o r d e r t o d e fe n d M s M e m e l a ’s p o s i ti o n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : W e n e e d t o h a v e a ll t h e g u n s f ir i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : W e a r e l i m it e d i f a b r o a d s t a te m e n t i s g o i n g to b e t h r o w n o u t t h e r e b e c a u s e in th e s a m e w a y th a t M s H o f m e y r is a c t u a l ly n o t o n ly e li c i ti n g i n fo r m a t i o n b u t i s c r o s s - e x a m i n i n g – i s Page 13 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 c r o s s - e x a m in i n g a s t o c r e d i b il i ty. W e a ls o n e e d to b e g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o s ta t e i f t h e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t h a s b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e t h i s tr i b u n a l is a c t u a ll y i n c o r r e c t i n f o r m a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : O r i f t h e i n fo r ma t io n th a t h a s b e e n p l a c e d before this tr i b u n a l is in f o r m a t io n that has not been p r o p e r ly r e s e a r c h e d . A n d in o r d e r f o r u s t o d o th a t w e n e e d to b e a b l e t o a t ta c k t h e v e r y i n fo r m a ti o n th a t is t h e a c t u a l i n f o r ma t io n . If fo r in s t a n c e i t i s fi g u r e s t h e f ig u r e is 1 0 0 w e n e e d t o b e a b l e t o s a y, n o t h a t fi g u r e w a s 10 n o t 1 0 0 . T h a t fi g u r e w a s R 5 0 . 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I w o u l d ju s t l ik e to r e s p o n d t o M s M b a n j w a i n o n e r e s p e c t a n d th e n p r o c e e d w it h th e q u e s t io n s . C h a ir w e b e g a n a li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g y e s t e r d a y i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e f la s h d is k . A n d it w a s i n r e s p o n s e t o t h a t t h a t a n o b j e c ti o n w a s r e c e i v e d b e c a u s e M s M b a n jw a a c ti n g f o r M s M e m e l a w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e ir in a b i li ty to te s t a n d p o s s i b l y d is p u t e w h a t o u r e x p e r t w i t h i n t h e 20 c o m m i s s io n h a d s a i d a b o u t t h a t fl a s h d i s k . I t w a s a t th a t p o i n t th a t th e li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g i n r e l a ti o n to t h e fl a s h d is k s e i z e d b e c a u s e y o u h a d g iv e n a n in d ic a t i o n t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a p r o c e s s w h e r e b y t h e y c o u l d in t e r r o g a t e i t . I le f t a n y fu r t h e r q u e s t io n in g i n r e l a ti o n to t h e fl a s h d is k . H a d I b e e n a b l e t o p e r s is t m a n y o f th e q u e s ti o n s t h a t M s M b a n j w a w a n ts a n s w e r e d t o d a y w o u l d h a v e b e e n a n s w e r e d . Page 14 of 217 Because we have 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 a n a ffi d a v i t fr o m M r R o b e r ts e w h o e x p l a i n s o n a ffi d a v i t p r e c is e ly h o w that spreadsheet was created. I t e x p l a i n s p r e c is e ly w h e r e t h e p r i c i n g in f o r m a ti o n c a m e a n d h e e x p la i n s p r e c is e ly w h e n i t c a m e w h ic h w a s w h e n t h e f iv e m o n t h te n d e r w a s s ti ll o p e n a n d A A R w e r e s ti ll b i d d i n g o n it . B u t w e d i d n o t g o t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n o b j e c t io n . The c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h a t is t h a t I p ic k u p to d a y o n th e W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n s . T h a t i s a d i ff e r e n t m a t t e r. All that I am asking Ms M e m e l a to d a y is f o r h e r a c c o u n t o n t h e W h a t s A p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n s . I t is i n b la c k a n d w h i t e o n t h e p a g e b e f o r e m e th a t Ms M e m e l a s a i d a t a 10 p o i n t in c o m m u n ic a ti o n s t h a t M s S a m b o s a i d s h e r e c e i v e d f r o m M s M e m e l a t h a t “ e v e n b e fo r e t h a t w h e n y o u w a n t e d p r ic e i n f o r m a ti o n fo r C h e r y l e I g a v e th a t t o y o u a s I n e v e r th o u g h t i t w o u l d o n e – y o u w o u l d o n e d a y p la n t o u s e it a g a i n s t m e . ” Ms M e m e l a ’s r e s p o n s e u n d e r o a t h h a s b e e n c l e a r. I f t h e r e w a s a n y p r i c i n g i n f o r m a t i o n s h e s h a r e d w i th M s S a m b o i t r e l a t e d t o g e n e r a lly a v a il a b l e p r ic in g i n fo r m a t i o n . A n d th a t is t h e p o in t I w o u ld l ik e t o p i c k u p w i t h h e r o n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e c o n t e x t in w h ic h th is r e c o r d a l o f t h is m e s s a g e a p p e a r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I s e e Ms M b a n j w a y o u w a n t t o r e s p o n d ? A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : 20 W h a t I n e e d t o p u t o n r e c o r d C h a i r is i t s e e m s a s i f M s H o f m e y r d o e s n o t u n d e r s t a n d o r a c c e p t t h e n a tu r e o f e v i d e n c e . E a c h e v i d e n c e is a n i n d e p e n d e n t s p e c i m e n b e f o r e t h e c o u r t . T h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e fl a s h d i s k w a s i n d e p e n d e n t . W e o b j e c t e d t o it b e c a u s e o f w h a t c o v e r e d i t . T h i s e v i d e n c e o f t h e W h a ts a p p is a n o th e r s e p a r a t e s p e c i m e n o f e v id e n c e . S h e c a n n o t s a y b e c a u s e o u r o b je c ti o n t o th e e v id e n c e o f t h e fl a s h d i s k w a s u p h e ld . S h e t h e r e f o r e h a s a r ig h t Page 15 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 to submit.. CHAIRPERSON: Well… A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : To s u b m it n o w … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l l e t u s j u s t m a k e .. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h is e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s m a k e s u r e w e a r e a c c u r a te . W e d i d n o t g e t t o t h e s t a g e o f u p h o l d i n g o r r e je c t i n g a n y o b j e c ti o n . But we – I gave s o m e in d ic a t i o n s w i th a v i e w t h a t w e c o u l d h a v e p r o g r e s s a n d s o m e u n d e r s t a n d in g . E v e n n o w I h a v e n o t m a d e a n y r u li n g . I a m s e e k in g t o 10 m a k e s u r e th a t w e c a n h a v e p r o g r e s s a n d i f w e c a n d o s o w i th o u t h a v i n g to m a k e a r u li n g th a t w o u l d b e fi n e . B u t i f I h a v e t o m a k e a r u l i n g I w il l . S o I a m li s t e n i n g t o b o t h o f y o u a n d s e e i n g w h e t h e r w e c a n m a k e p r o g r e s s w i t h o u t h a v in g t o m a k e a r u li n g . But if – if we c a n n o t f in d a w a y t o m o v e f o r w a r d a n d h a v e p r o g r e s s w i t h o u t a r u li n g I w i ll h a v e a r u li n g . S o – s o n o r u li n g h a s b e e n m a d e b u t I m a d e s o m e in c li n a ti o n – s o m e in d ic a ti o n s a n d to s e e i f th e r e c o u l d b e c o m m o n g r o u n d a n d M s H o f m e y r w a s a b le t o h a n d l e t h e m a t t e r th e w a y s h e d id a n d t o a c c o m m o d a te y o u r c o n c e r n s . I f I h a v e t o m a k e a r u li n g I w il l s a y m a k e y o u r s u b m i s s io n s a n d I w il l n o w m a k e a r u li n g . S o r i g h t n o w 20 I t h i n k th a t w e n e e d t o f i n d a w a y o f m o v in g f o r w a r d a n d i f w e c a n n o t fi n d a w a y I w ill ju s t h a v e to m a k e a r u l i n g a n d w e m o v e o n . A s I s e e i t y o u k n o w l is te n in g t o y o u r o b j e c ti o n a n d l is te n i n g t o M s H o f m e y r I c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h y Ms H o f m e y r w h o k n o w s m o r e a b o u t t h e e v id e n c e t h a t s h e is p r e s e n ti n g b e c a u s e s h e h a s f o c u s s e d o n i t i n p r e p a r a t io n a n d k n o w s w h y s h e is b r i n g in g a c e r t a i n w i t n e s s a t a c e r t a i n ti m e w h y s h e Page 16 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 m i g h t s a y, n o t p r o c e e d in g a n d fi n a li s i n g t h e e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o I k e e p o n c a ll in g i t a – A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Fl a s h d is k . C H A I R P E R S O N : A f la s h ? A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Fl a s h d is k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fl a s h d is k . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S h e k n o w s w h a t is i t i n t h e r e a n d s h e k n o w s w h a t a ffi d a v i ts r e l a te t o t h a t . I m a y h a v e m y – m y a tt e n ti o n m a y h a v e b e e n 10 d ir e c t e d to o n e a ffi d a v i t o r t w o . S o – s o i t d o e s n o t s u r p r is e m e i f s h e s a y s , l o o k h a d I p r o c e e d e d a n d g o n e a h e a d w i t h th a t l i n e o f q u e s t io n in g t h e s e is s u e s w o u ld n o t b e a r i s in g . Yo u s e e . S o – s o I – I t h i n k w h a t I a m g o in g t o d o i s t h is . I d o h a v e n e e d t o ta k e a fi v e m i n u t e b r e a k t o a tt e n d t o s o m e – s o m e t h i n g . S o I a m g o i n g to t a k e a few minutes break and give a chance to you and Ms Hofmeyr to have a d is c u s s io n o n h o w w e c a n a c h i e v e a s m o o t h r u n n i n g o f t h e p r o c e e d i n g s w i t h o u t p r e j u d ic in g y o u r c l i e n t ’s r ig h ts . I f w h e n I c o m e b a c k y o u h a v e f o u n d e a c h o t h e r a n d I a m h a p p y w i th w h a t y o u h a v e r e a c h e d w e w i ll p r o c e e d . I f y o u h a v e n o t fo u n d e a c h o t h e r I m a y h a v e t o m a k e a r u li n g . 20 Is t h a t a lr ig h t ? A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . Ms H o f m e y r i s t h a t f i n e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i t is t w e n ty - e ig h t m i n u t e s p a s t o n my w a t c h le t u s s a y I w il l r e t u r n a t t w e n ty t o e le v e n . W e a d jo u r n . Page 17 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, M s M b a n j w a i n d ic a te d to m e o v e r t h e b r e a k th a t t h e y w e r e h a p p y to h a v e M s M e m e l a a n s w e r th e q u e s ti o n s , but … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m M s M b a n j w a th a t th e r e is s o m e t h i n g s h e n o n e th e le s s w a n ts to r a is e w i t h y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : N o . I t is fi n e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t fi n e ? M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a , y o u i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e o n ly p r ic in g 20 in f o r m a ti o n y o u w o u ld h a v e g i v e n t o M s S a m b o w a s g e n e r a l p u b li c a ll y a v a i la b le in f o r m a ti o n . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g . M a y b e i t w i ll b e p r i c e s c o m in g fr o m p r e v i o u s t e n d e r s a n d - a n d s t u ff . I have not c h e c k e d L e o n ’s a ffi d a v it . T h a t M s H o f m e y r k e p t o n - I h a v e n o t r e a d i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 18 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: S o w e j u s t p r e p a r in g o th e r t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t t o t h e r e - e x a m in a ti o n . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w o u l d p r ic in g in f o r m a t io n f r o m p r e v io u s t e n d e r s b e p u b li c a ll y a v a il a b l e ? MS MEMELA: R e m e m b e r i t h a s a lr e a d y - t h e te n d e r h a s a l r e a d y passed … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S M E M E L A : A n d u s u a l ly I - I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u r e m e m b e r d u r i n g o u r m e e ti n g - d u r i n g o u r m e e ti n g C h a ir w i t h M s H o f m e y r a n d M s 10 M r K a p la n ( ? ) . I m e n t i o n e d to t h e m t h a t o u r p u r p o s e fr o m 2 0 1 3 w h e n I jo in e d p r o c u r e m e n t - th e p u r p o s e w a s t o e n s u r e th a t w e s a v e a s m u c h a s p o s s i b l e t o S A AT, b e c a u s e A ir F r a n c e - th e p r e v io u s s u p p li e r - h a d b e e n c h a r g in g S A AT a n a r m a n d th e l e g s i n c e t w o - 2 0 0 8 . S o I r e m e m b e r M r K a p la n e v e n a s k in g m e o k a y, b u t h o w w a s t e s ti n g t h e m a r k e t fo r th a t s h o r t p e r i o d g o in g t o h e l p , b e c a u s e a n y w a y t h e t e n d e r b e f o r e t h a t h a d g iv e n p r ic e s a n d I s a i d i f h e - h e w i ll h a v e t h e f u ll in f o r m a t io n fr o m S A AT a n d ta k e th e te n d e r fr o m 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 w h e n it w a s a w a r d e d t o P e g a s u s a n d it w a s c a n c e ll e d a n d t h e f iv e y e a r t e n d e r a n d t h e fi n a l te n d e r. 20 H e w il l h o w m u c h S A AT h a s s a v e d s i n c e t h e n . R ig h t n o w i n t h e c u r r e n t c o n tr a c t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o n t h e s u b m is s i o n th a t w a s d o n e b y t h e s a m e L e o n R o b e r ts t h a t M s H o f m e y r w a s r e f e r r in g t o . S A AT - m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g - i s s a v in g 8 0 0 m il li o n o u t o f th is c u r r e n t c o n tr a c t compared to Air France. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a , t h e p r ic i n g in f o r m a t io n o f a b i d d e r Page 19 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 is c o m m e r c i a l ly s e n s it iv e to it . Is i t n o t ? M S M E M E L A : C o m m e r c i a lly s e n s it iv e h o w ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s c o n f i d e n ti a l t o th e b i d d e r. I t is t h e ir pricing. M S M E M E L A : N o , n o , n o . O h . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s e e t h a t t h e r e is a n o t h e r o b j e c t io n C h a ir. I f I m a y j u s t m a k e a p o i n t in a d v a n c e o f Ms M b a n jw a ’s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O b j e c ti o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, w e a r e n o w a t q u a r te r t o 11 … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t o o d fr o m y o u r i n d ic a ti o n s y e s t e r d a y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t th e r e w a s a r e q u e s t t h a t t h e r e b e a n a b il i ty fo r t h e e v i d e n c e to f lo w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t m a t te r s e i t h e r c o m e t o m e b y a n o t e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f th e r e i s a m a tt e r o r i t b e r e s e r v e d f o r r e - e x a m in a ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr o v id e d i t is c l a r i f ic a t o r y. Page 20 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I b e l ie v e it is m y d u ty a t t h is p o i n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To i n d ic a t e w e w i ll n o t f in is h t h i s e v id e n c e t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f th e s e o b j e c t io n s h a p p e n a f t e r e v e r y s e c o n d o r th ir d q u e s ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And we w i ll n o t f in is h the evidence of M r N d z e k u to m o r r o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e d o n o t m o v e m o r e fl u i d ly to d a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t le t m e h a n d o v e r to m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I t is fi n e C h a ir. S h e c a n c o n t in u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ms M e m e l a , I w a s s a y i n g i t is c o n fi d e n t ia l t o t h e b i d d e r. W h a t t h e ir p r i c i n g w a s f o r a p a r ti c u la r b id . D o y o u a c c e p t that? MS MEMELA: I t is c o n f id e n ti a l l ik e d u r i n g t h e t e n d e r p r o c e s s . Something that … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . M S M E M E L A : J a . S o m e t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d p r e v io u s ly. Page 21 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S M E M E L A : I t is s o m e t h i n g th a t I m e a n h a s g iv e n u s a n in d i c a t io n a t s u p p ly c h a i n th a t m a y b e a t th e m a r k e t c u r r e n tly t h i s is h o w m u c h t h e y are charging. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MS MEMELA: S o w h ic h i s t h e r e a s o n w h y m a y b e w e h a d t e s t e d t h e m a r k e t p r e v i o u s l y. S o i t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n t h a t i f th e b i d d e r h a d te n d e r e d - te n d e r e d th e c e r ta i n a m o u n t p r e v io u s t e n d e r. T h e y w il l - t h e y w il l b e t h e - th e s a m e a m o u n t fo r t h e n e x t o n e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MS MEMELA: A s m u c h a s I a m - I a m a c t u a ll y tr y in g to e x p l a in t h i s C h a ir m a n . I a m - I a m s t il l n o t s a y in g i t w a s t h e - w h a te v e r p r ic e . I a m s a y in g li k e i t - i t c o u ld h a v e b e e n a n y o t h e r n o r m a l p r ic e t h a t li k e w e w o u ld h a v e k n o w n fr o m S C M . I a m s a y i n g i t c a n n o t b e c o m i n g fr o m th e t e n d e r, b e c a u s e e v e n i f li k e L e o n w o u ld s a y o k a y. I h a d s a i d h e m u s t do a spreadsheet. It w o u l d n o t b e a s p r e a d s h e e t c o m i n g fr o m t h e C F S T. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms M e m e l a , l e t u s g o b a c k t o c r is p a n s w e r s . M S M E M E L A : To t h e c r is p a n s w e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : L ik e y e s t e r d a y. M S M E M E L A : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S M E M E L A : I t i s j u s t t h a t C h a ir s o m e t i m e s … Page 22 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S M E M E L A : T h e s e k in d o f q u e s t io n s . T h e y l e a v e a b i t te r ta s t e i n th e p u b lic ’s m o u t h , b u t i t is f in e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o , n o . M S M E M E L A : I w i ll tr y a n d b e a s c r is p a s p o s s i b le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o , n o . I u n d e r s t a n d . I u n d e r s ta n d . I a m tr y i n g to m a k e s u r e w e m a k e p r o g r e s s . I - b u t a ls o I a m s a y in g th is b e c a u s e I k n o w I w il l g r a n t y o u r la w y e r … MS MEMELA: Ja. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e - e x a m i n e . M S M E M E L A : R e - e x a m in e . CHAIRPERSON: S o s h e c a n p ic k u p s o m e o f th e th i n g s w h e r e s h e k n o w s y o u w o u ld h a v e l ik e d t o p u t a c e r t a i n p e r s p e c ti v e . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u c h e c k w i th th e p r e v i o u s b i d d e r s w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e h a p p y fo r t h e ir p r ic in g i n f o r m a t i o n to g o to a c o m p e ti t o r i n th e m a r k e t ? M S M E M E L A : O k a y. R e m e m b e r C h a ir M s H o f m e y r d i d r e a d s o m e t h i n g 20 o n t h e b i d a b o u t t h e P r o j e c t M a n a g e r - b e i n g L e o n i n t h is r e g a r d . Th a t is t h e o n ly o n e t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d - w h a t - i n q u ir e b y i n f o r m a t i o n a n d w h a t e v e r. S o m y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t t h e r e is - t h e r e is n o w a y th a t I w o u ld h a v e f o r c e d L e o n t o fiv e m e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t is f o r b i d d e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o M s M e m e l a . I t is n o t c l e a r w h e th e r h e k n e w y o u w e r e g o i n g to g iv e i t t o a n o t h e r b i d d e r. M y q u e s t i o n t o y o u w a s a Page 23 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 d i ff e r e n t o n e . D i d y o u y o u r s e l f b e fo r e y o u h a n d e d o v e r t h e p r i c i n g in f o r m a ti o n to M s S a m b o c h e c k w h e t h e r t h e p r e v io u s b id p r ic e s o f t h e bidders … MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y w e r e h a p p y … MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To h a v e h a n d e d o v e r to a c o m p e t i to r. MS MEMELA: R e m e m b e r M s H o f m e y r - r e m e m b e r C h a ir, I - I - th e m e m o r y s tic k t h a t s h e is r e fe r r i n g t o - b e c a u s e I c a n s e e w h e n s h e is 10 u s i n g t h e h a n d n o w. I t is l ik e s h e s a y w h e n y o u g a v e t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n . R e m e m b e r th e m e m o r y s t ic k p a r t o f t h e i n f o r m a ti o n i s s ti ll q u e s ti o n a b l e fr o m u s . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e q u e s ti o n is . MS MEMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n e v e r y o u g a v e p r ic in g i n fo r m a t i o n to M s S a m b o o r a n y b o d y e ls e b a s e d o n p r e v i o u s te n d e r s - I t h in k - a s y o u s a y. MS MEMELA: Hm. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e q u e s t io n is w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d h a v e c h e c k e d w i th t h e p r e v io u s b id d e r s t o w h ic h t h a t in f o r m a ti o n r e l a te d t h a t t h e y h a d n o o b j e c ti o n t o y o u g iv i n g t h is i n fo r m a ti o n t o a p o te n ti a l c o m p e t i to r. M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, s i n c e - y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n M s H o f m e y r r e a d th a t d o c u m e n t - t h a t t e n d e r d o c u m e n t y e s te r d a y. T h a t a ll i n q u ir i e s w il l b e d o n e w it h L e o n . M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t i f I a s k f o r i n fo r m a ti o n fr o m Page 24 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 L e o n t h a t is s o m e t h in g c o n fi d e n t ia l f o r t h e C F S T. She would have c h e c k e d th e n w i th t h e b id d e r s , b u t li k e i t s h o w s th a t th is o n e w a s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t is f o r b i d d e n i f I w e r e t o s h a r e i t a t a l l . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is y o u r a n s w e r t h a t y o u d i d n o t ? M S M E M E L A : I d i d n o t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d th e n w h a t w o u ld b e t h e p r o b le m M s M e m e l a a n d h o w c o u l d th a t i n f o r m a ti o n b e u s e d a g a in s t y o u - a s is 10 r e fl e c t e d i n t h e W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n - if i t w a s i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t c o u l d fr e e ly b e s h a r e d ? M S M E M E L A : O k a y. Yo u s e e s h e is ta lk i n g a b o u t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t could be used against me. T h e o t h e r in f o r m a ti o n t h a t s h e is n o t m e n ti o n i n g o th e r t h e p r ic e t h a t s h e i s f o c u s in g o n . I t w i ll b e t h e J V t h a t w e d i s c u s s e d y e s te r d a y a n d t h e p r o p o s a l . S o t h a t i s e x a c t ly w h a t I w a s s a y i n g t o h e r, b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r I h a d s e n t t h a t t o h e r c o n fi d e n ti a lly. H e l p i n g h e r a s a B l a c k o w n e d s u p p li e r a n d l ik e w e w i ll th e n w e w i ll s h o w t h a t w i t h m y l a w y e r d u r i n g t h e r e - e x a m in a ti o n w h a t is m y 20 o b li g a ti o n t o w a r d s B l a c k o w n e d s u p p li e r s a n d s t u ff . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M s M e m e l a , w h e n y o u s a i d a n d I q u o t e : “ E v e n b e f o r e th a t w h e n y o u w a n t e d p r ic e i n fo … ” M S M E M E L A : O k a y. W h e r e a r e y o u - w h e r e a r e y o u Ms … ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . MS MEMELA: Hm. Page 25 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m a t 5 - 3 - 2 i n E X H I B I T D D 1 8 . I t is t h e s a m e s e n te n c e th a t I h a v e r e a d p r e v i o u s ly. I t i s a b o u t m id w a y d o w n th a t l a s t … M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o m m u n ic a ti o n o n th e p a g e . MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I j u s t w a n t to b e c l e a r o n y o u r e v i d e n c e . W h e n y o u w r o t e to M s S a m b o a n d I q u o t e : “Even before that when you wanted p r ic e in f o r m a ti o n f o r C h e r y l … ” 10 MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “…I gave that to you as I never t h o u g h t y o u w o u ld o n e d a y p l a n t o u s e it a g a in s t me.” Yo u w e r e a c t u a ll y n o t r e f e r r i n g t o t h e p r i c i n g i n f o r m a t io n . Yo u w e r e r e fe r r i n g t o t h e p r o p o s a l a n d t h e J V A g r e e m e n t . Is t h a t y o u r evidence? M S M E M E L A : O k a y. N o . Th is i s - h a s s o m e th i n g to d o w i t h t h e p r i c e C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S M E M E L A : A s I s a i d lik e I h a v e n o t r e a d t h is W h a ts A p p . S o I a m s a y in g s o m e o f t h is W h a ts A p p it is v e r y l o n g . I have not read it this m o r n in g , b u t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s th a t it w a s o n J V p r o p o s a l a n d w h a t e v e r p r ic e . T h a t i s fr o m t h e c l a i m s I h a v e g i v e n t o h e r a n d M s M s H o f m e y r ’s n e x t q u e s ti o n w a s - b e f o r e w e to o k a b r e a k w a s w h y Page 26 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 w o u ld S i b o n g i le o r S a m b o t u r n a g a i n s t m e . I d o n o t k n o w i f s h e i s s t il l g o i n g t o c o m e t o th a t q u e s t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . M S M E M E L A : B e c a u s e I w o u l d l ik e t o c la r if y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m f o c u s i n g o n i s … MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is v e r y s e n t e n c e . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Yo u h a v e e x p la i n e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u d i d g iv e p r ic in g i n fo r m a ti o n , b u t it w a s p r i c i n g in f o r m a t io n th a t y o u c o u l d fr e e ly s h a r e w i t h M s S a m b o , b e c a u s e i t r e l a te d to h i s to r ic t e n d e r s a n d I a m a s k i n g y o u i f t h a t is t h e p r i c i n g i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o in t h e s e n t e n c e . H o w c o u ld t h a t p o s s i b l y b e u s e d a g a i n s t you if it is information that can freely be given? MS MEMELA: C h a ir p e r s o n , I a m s it t in g h e r e t o d a y. I am answering t h e q u e s t io n r e g a r d in g th e s a m e i n f o r m a ti o n . S o th a t i s e x a c t ly w h a t is being used against me - against me. Well the person … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll a t th a t ti m e y o u d i d n o t k n o w y o u w o u l d s i t h e r e t o d a y. 20 MS M EM ELA: No. Remember Chair … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : S h e - s h e - t h e r e is s o m e w h e r e w h e r e I h a v e m e n t io n e d C i ty P r e s s a n d s tu ff . S o I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t a p e r s o n is u s i n g , b e c a u s e t h e y t a lk i n g C i ty P r e s s o r m a y b e w h a t e v e r. S o g o in g t o t h e m e d ia a b o u t t h o s e k in d o f th in g s a n d s t u ff a n d y o u k n o w t h e m e d i a Page 27 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 w i t h n o fu ll b a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a ti o n a n d w h e n th e y w r it e a b o u t s tu ff s o m e b o d y. S o li k e i t w a s t h a t u s e d a g a i n s t m e . N o t b e c a u s e i t is ill e g a l o r a n y t h i n g li k e t h a t . As I u n d e r s t a n d M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a , t o c o n c l u d e o n t h i s p o i n t I w a n t to g iv e y o u a n o p p o r tu n it y t o c o m m e n t o n t h e fo ll o w i n g o b s e r v a ti o n . MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w il l b e o u r l ik e ly s u b m is s i o n i n d u e c o u r s e t h a t t h is i n f o r m a t io n w a s n o t fr e e ly a v a il a b l e a n d i t w a s g i v e n a n d t h a t is w h y y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d th a t i t w o u ld b e u s e d a g a in s t y o u i n f u t u r e . 10 I f i t w a s t o b e fr e e ly g i v e n th e r e w o u ld b e n o w o r r y a b o u t M s S a m b o g o i n g t o C i ty Pr e s s … MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e r e w o u l d b e n o r e a s o n f o r y o u to s a y i t c o u l d b e u s e d a g a in s t y o u . D o y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e t o t h a t ? M S M E M E L A : I h a v e a r e s p o n s e t o th a t C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I w i ll r e f e r to t h e J V i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u a s k e d m e a b o u t t h a t w h y w o u l d a s u p p li e r t a lk t o m e a b o u t J V. I w o u ld r e f e r t o th e p r o p o s a l a s w e ll . A s I s a i d y e s t e r d a y t h a t w h e n s u p p li e r s c o m e t o m e . I t is a ll a b o u t S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t a n d a s m u c h a s t h e n A ir Fr a n c e B E E w o u l d h a v e c o m e to 20 m e f o r i n fo r m a t i o n . JM would have come to me. S i b o n g i le h e r s e l f o r a n y o t h e r s u p p li e r. W h e n I g iv e t h e m in f o r m a ti o n i t i s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t I e x p e c t t h a t in t h e f u t u r e l ik e i t h a s d o n e n o w. I t w il l b e u s e d a s e v i d e n c e a g a in s t m e . S o t h a t is - t h a t is th e p o i n t t h a t I w a s tr y i n g to m a k e t h e r e a n d t h is J V is h e r e , b u t lik e a t l e a s t w e w i ll b e a b l e t o c l a r i fy d u r i n g Page 28 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 r e - e x a m in a ti o n in te r m s o f J V w h a t w a s my o b li g a t i o n i n t e r m s o f h e l p i n g s u p p l ie r s a n d a ll t h a t . S o t h a t is w h e r e I t h i n k m y p o i n t w a s b e i n g m a d e o n th a t WhatsApp. I t is a p i t y t h a t C h a i r I m e a n w h e n y o u d is c u s s c e r ta in t h i n g s w i t h a p e r s o n . Th e la s t th i n g t h a t y o u - y o u t h i n k t h e p e r s o n is d o i n g is to k e e p c e r t a in in f o r m a t io n th a t w a s d is c u s s e d a l o n g ti m e a g o , b e c a u s e n o w w e d o n o t r e a lly r e c o l l e c t e x a c t ly w h a t w a s s a i d a t t h a t ti m e a n d fr o m w h a t c o n t e x t a n d - a n d I d i d n o t m e n t i o n o n Fr i d a y e a r l ie r - t h a t th e - t h e S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t i s s u e w a s a s e n s i t iv e 10 is s u e a t S A AT. U n f o r t u n a t e ly I w a s l o o k i n g f o r a n e m a i l t h a t I w a n t e d t o r e a d . F o r th e C h a ir to s e e e x a c tl y w h a t I h a d t o g o th r o u g h t o tr y a n d p r o v e - t o p u s h t h e S u p p l i e r D e v e lo p m e n t . S o m e o f m y te a m d u r in g lik e t h i s w h o l e p r o c e s s w e r e r e a l ly a g a i n s t i t . T h e y w ill a g r e e i n m y f a c e a n d t h e n b e h i n d m y f a c e t h e y d o s o m e th in g e ls e a n d n o t e m p o w e r the same people. A s I s a id t h a t B E E w a s c a ll e d N o n ts a s a ’s B E E a n d s t u ff . S o t h a t i t w a s my w a y o f tr y i n g t o s a y o k a y. I w i ll h e lp t h e p e o p le in t e r m s o f I m e a n m a k i n g s u r e t h a t th e y u n d e r s t a n d e x a c tly w h a t is e x p e c t e d o f 20 t h e m a n d s t u ff . N o t - n o t t o s a y I w a s t a k i n g s o m e t h i n g s o c o n f i d e n ti a l t h a t is i ll e g a l y o u k n o w. S o I w il l e x p la i n t h a t d u r i n g m y r e - e x a m i n a t io n C h a ir i n - i n d e t a i l. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u h a v e s a i d q u i t e a f e w ti m e s . MS MEMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e t h i n g th a t g i v e s m e t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t y o u a r e Page 29 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 s a y in g t h a t i t w a s p a r t o f y o u r jo b to s h a r e i n f o r m a ti o n w i th … M S M E M E L A : S u p p l ie r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . B l a c k s u p p l ie r s i n o r d e r t o a s s is t t h e m . M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o w i t m a y b e th a t w e s h o u l d d e a l w i th th a t n o w r a th e r t h a n i n r e - e x a m i n a t io n . I - is th a t y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t t h a t w a s part of your job? MS MEMELA: T h a t w a s p a r t o f m y jo b C h a ir. W e w il l r e a d th a t fr o m t h e S C M a n d t h e e n t e r p r is e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : P o li c y. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. I - I w o u l d lik e u s t o g o t h e r e i f t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g w r it t e n d o w n th a t s a y s t h a t w a s p a r t o f y o u r jo b . S o th a t before your lawyer re-examines. We have had a chance to understand t h e s o u r c e o f o r th e b a s is o f th a t e v i d e n c e . Ms M b a n j w a . M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I h a v e a c tu a lly p r e p a r e d s o m e t h i n g v e r y s p e c i fi c . S o I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e C h a i r w a n ts u s t o p r e s e n t i t n o w. W e c a n p r e s e n t i t, b e c a u s e w e h a v e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d w e h a v e p r o o f o f w h a t w e a r e s a y in g . 20 S o w e a r e a c tu a l ly u s in g d o c u m e n ts fr o m S A AT. W e j u s t t h o u g h t t h a t it w i ll b e p r o p e r th a t w e d o it a s p a r t o f o u r r e - e x a m in a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o . I t is b e tt e r t h a t w h e n M s - M s H o f m e y r fi n i s h e s s h e h a s b e e n a b l e t o c a n v a s e v e r y t h i n g a n d a ll th a t r e m a i n s is c la r i fi c a t o r y q u e s ti o n s fr o m y o u r s i d e . M a y b e w h a t w e s h o u l d d o is t h a t s h a r e w i th M s H o f m e y r d u r i n g t h e te a b r e a k w h a t y o u h a v e a n d Page 30 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 w h a t e v e r o t h e r d o c u m e n ts y o u m a y h a v e b e e n i n t e n d in g to h a n d u p . So that she can see whether they c o u ld assist in u n d e r s t a n d in g c e r ta in th i n g s a n d t h e n p u t ti n g c e r t a i n q u e s ti o n s t o h e r a n d t h e n - s o t h a t w h e n s h e s i ts d o w n . T h e r e - e x a m i n a t i o n is r e a l ly a i m e d a t c l a r if ic a ti o n a n d n o t a t r a i s i n g n e w t h i n g s , b e c a u s e t h a t is n o t what it is supposed be. M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n , b u t c a n w e p le a s e w i t h a l l d u e r e s p e c t r e s e r v e o u r r ig h ts . I a m g o i n g t o b e u p fr o n t M s H o f m e y r ’s a t ti t u d e is v e r y c o n fr o n ta t i o n a l. 10 S h e h a s c h o s e n t o f o l lo w t h e p a t h . r e - e x a m in a ti o n ? I a m n o t c o m p la i n i n g . Can we please reserve our own S h e h a s d e c id e d t o d o t h i n g s - t o c o n d u c t t h i n g s i n t h is w a y. W h e n s h e g a v e m e t h e f il e th e o t h e r t i m e s h e t h r e w it a t m e . MS MEMELA: Hm. M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I a m f in e w i t h t h is C h a i r p e r s o n . I - I w il l c o n ti n u e lik e t h i s . Th e h o s ti li ty is f in e . I t is w e lc o m e . L e t u s p r o c e e d lik e th is C h a i r p e r s o n . W e a r e j u s t g r a t e f u l a b o u t t h e f a c t th a t y o u a r e r e a l ly c o n s i d e r a t e i n th e s e p r o c e e d in g s . Yo u n o t e d i m m e d i a t e ly th a t c li e n t i s n o t r e a l ly w e l l t o d a y. S h e is i n d e e d n o t w e l l, b u t s h e is a b l e t o c o n ti n u e . 20 W e d o n o t w a n t t o d e l a y t h e p r o c e e d i n g s , b u t I p r e f e r to p la y my cards very close to my chest. I w i ll n o t p r e j u d ic e , b e c a u s e t h e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w e a r e g o i n g t o u s e a r e t h e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h c o m e fr o m t h e f il e s t h a t a r e w i t h t h e m . Th e o n l y th in g t h a t w e h a v e d o n e i s t o e x t r a c t t h e m a n d t o p u t t h e p r o p e r i n te r p r e ta t io n . T h e r e w il l b e n o s u r p r is e s C h a i r p e r s o n . Page 31 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. O k a y. O k a y. W e ll I w o u l d j u s t e n c o u r a g e o f course I have not heard what Ms Hofmeyr has to say and she might c h o o s e n o t s a y a n y t h i n g . I w i ll j u s t e n c o u r a g e th a t - I w o u l d e n c o u r a g e c o l l e g i a li t y a n d I w o u l d e n c o u r a g e t h a t w e a l l tr y a n d w o r k w e l l t o g e t h e r a n d tr y a n d m a y - e n s u r e a s m o o th r u n n i n g o f t h e p r o c e e d in g s . I am s u r e th a t t h in g s c a n b e s o r t e d o u t. S o if t h e d o c u m e n ts y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t a r e d o c u m e n ts th a t c o m e fr o m t h e b u n d le s t h a t Ms H o f m e y r h a s . T h e n it s h o u l d n o t b e a p r o b le m , b u t it w o u ld h e l p if h e r a t te n ti o n a n d my a tt e n ti o n is d r a w n t o 10 s p e c i f ic d o c u m e n t s t h a t m i g h t d e a l w i th t h is a r e a - a r e a , b e c a u s e a s I s a y t h e - t h e e x a m i n a t io n - r e - e x a m in a ti o n is s u p p o s e d to b e - ju s t t o c la r i fy is s u e s th a t m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n c l a r if i e d . S o - b u t w e - w e w ill s e e . I m e n ti o n t h a t . I a m n o t f o r c i n g y o u t o d o a n y t h in g t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t w a n t to d o n o w, b u t a s l o n g a s y o u b e a r th a t i n m in d . M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I h a v e b o r n e i t i n m i n d y o u r w o r s h i p . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t ? Ye s . M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : W e w il l b e v e r y, v e r y, v e r y b r i e f . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . 20 M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, I d o n o t t h i n k i t i s fr u i t f u l f o r m e t o e n g a g e in t h e a ll e g a t io n o f h o s t il it y. I t i s m y s u b m is s i o n t h a t t h a t is f a ls e . T h a t I h a v e a j o b t o d o h e r e i n … MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. Page 32 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th is C o m m i s s i o n a n d I h a v e b e e n d o i n g i t a n d a s f a r a s c o l le g i a li ty g o e s M s M b a n j w a a n d M s M e m e la k n o w t h e s t e p s t h a t I h a v e g o n e to - to e n s u r e th a t t h e y c a n c o n s u l t fr e e ly a n d n o t i n a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e r e is a n y c h a n c e t h a t w e w o u l d o v e r h e a r t h e m . T h e r e is a n i s s u e w it h t h e r o o m s n e x t d o o r t o u s a n d t h e r e is a c t u a ll y a n a b i li ty t o h e a r b e t w e e n t h e r o o m s . I t o o k s te p s to g o t o t h e m a n d i n d ic a te t h a t t h e y m u s t b e a w a r e o f th e f a c t th a t t h e r e is a - a tr a n s m is s i o n o f s o u n d b e t w e e n t h e m , b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o b e a b s o l u t e ly s u r e t h a t t h e y c o u ld c o n s u l t 10 fr e e ly. MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I w o u ld li k e t o m o v e o n t h e n if w e m a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Let us then go Ms Memela to a point that you r e fe r e n c e d . I th i n k i t w a s y e s te r d a y o r Fr i d a y. MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a p a r t o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t w h e r e y o u r a is e M r B e z u i d e n h o u t ’s p r e v i o u s i n v o l v e m e n t i n s p e a k i n g to a - a b i d d e r a n d y o u s a id y o u w e r e h o p i n g th a t w e w o u l d g e t to th a t a n d s o I w o u l d lik e 20 t o t a k e y o u t o i t. I t is a t p a g e 1 0 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d t h a t i s in D D 2 5 A a n d y o u w il l f in d i t a t p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t d o e s n o t m e a n w e a r e d o n e w i t h t h e W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s o r d o e s it ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . I t d o e s m e a n t h a t w e a r e d o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 33 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. MS M EM ELA: Oh. Are we done? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o w e m o v e … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e n o t d o n e w i t h t h e W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s . S h e s h e w il l s ti ll c o n t i n u e . MS MEMELA: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 No, no. S o r r y. I a m in d ic a t i n g w e a r e d o n e w i t h t h e W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Yo u s a y y o u … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e c o n c l u d e d . I h a v e p u t t o … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms M e m e l a w h a t I w a n t e d h e r r e s p o n s e o n a n d n o w w e a r e m o v i n g t o a n a s p e c t i n r e la t io n to t h e in t e r a c ti o n s b e tw e e n t e n d e r e r s a n d th e - S A AT. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o . I … M S M E M E L A : W h ic h p a g e C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y. C a n I t a k e y o u b a c k to t h e … 20 MS MEMELA: Oh. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. MS M EM ELA: What was the page? C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s 5 - 3 - 2 o f E X H I B I T D D 1 8 . M S M E M E L A : I a m th e r e C h a ir. Page 34 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Are you there? M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. I have nor refreshed my memory on this W h a t s A p p m e s s a g e , b u t la s t w e e k I h a d l o o k e d a t i t p r o p e r l y. I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t o n e o f th e t h i n g s y o u s a i d o r t h e m e s s a g e - t h e W h a t s A p p m e s s a g e r e f le c t s is t h a t y o u a c k n o w l e d g e d h a v in g g iv e n M s S a m b o s o m e i n fo r m a t i o n t o g iv e t o M s J a c k s o n - C h e r y l J a c k s o n . Is - is t h a t y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n o f o n e o f t h e t h i n g s r e f l e c t e d in t h e - in t h e S M - i n th e W h a t s A p p m e s s a g e ? 10 MS MEMELA: C h a ir, I h a d s a i d - m y r e s p o n s e w a s i f I h a d g i v e n h e r a n y i n fo r m a t i o n w i t h r e g a r d to p r ic i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: I t w il l b e ju s t t h e s t a n d a r d p r ic i n g t h a t w e k n o w fr o m s u p p ly c h a i n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: A n d fr o m - it w il l b e m a y b e f r o m t h e p r e v i o u s t e n d e r s a n d - a n d w h a t e v e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : S o I s a i d i f I h a d g iv e n … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : To h e r. Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : If - i f y o u h a d g iv e n . J a . M S M E M E L A : Ye s a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Page 35 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS M EM ELA: It was more helping her more than anything and … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: W e w il l g o i n d e ta il . N o t - n o t lo n g in t e r m s o f h e r lo o k in g fo r p r ic e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: Ve r s u s h e r c o m i n g b a c k t o E r n s t & Yo u n g a n d s a y in g s h e d id n o t b id w i t h A A R . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : J a . S o th a t is m y p o in t t h a t I w il l m a k e l a te r o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n a n y e v e n t I t h i n k s h e d i d te s t i fy t h a t y o u g a v e h e r i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s r e l e v a n t t o t h e t e n d e r t h a t A A R w a n te d t o b id f o r t h a t s h e w a s g o in g to g i v e t o Ms C h e r y l J a c k s o n . MS MEMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d o y o u s a y to h e r e v id e n c e i n th a t r e g a r d ? M S M E M E L A : C h a ir t h a t c o u l d n o t b e a c c u r a t e , b e c a u s e I d o n o t s i t a t C F S T. A s I s a i d t h a t i f L e o n h a d d o n e a s p r e a d s h e e t h e h a d d o n e a s p r e a d s h e e t n o t o u t o f t h e C F S T. Rem ember CFST works together w h a t e v e r t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h e y d o . T h e y d o t o g e t h e r. S o I a m n o t s u r e in h is a ffi d a v i t i f w e - i f h e h a d s t a t e d th a t h e h a d t a k e n t h e in f o r m a ti o n 20 fr o m t h e C F S T. Fr o m w h a t I r e a d li k e w h e n I w a s b r o w s in g t h r o u g h h is a ffi d a v i t . H e h a d s a id I h a d a s k e d h e r ( s ic ) t o c o m p il e a s p r e a d s h e e t a b o u t c e r t a i n i n f o r m a t i o n a n d t h e n h e w e n t a s f a r a s th e h is to r ic a l p r i c e s . I t h in k e . g . L u f t h a n s a . H e g a v e a n e x a m p l e o f L u f th a n s a . S o I - I d o n o t a g r e e t h a t I g a v e M s S a m b o w h a t w a s o n th a t t e n d e r f o r - fo r Page 36 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 t h e fi v e m o n t h s c o n t r a c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e s a i d y o u g a v e h e r t h is i n f o r m a ti o n w h e n s h e h a d - s h e m e t w i th y o u a t a S h e l l G a r a g e i n A l b e r t o n . Do you remember a n y m e e t in g t h a t y o u m a y h a v e h a d w it h h e r a t S h e l l G a r a g e in Alberton? M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, I w o u l d n o t r e m e m b e r. T h a t is w h y I s a i d y o u s e e s o m e o f t h i s in f o r m a t io n is c o m i n g fr o m 2 0 1 7 a n d , j a . S o I s a id to my s t a te m e n t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r m e e ti n g M s S a m b o a t t h e S h e l l G a r a g e . M o s t o f o u r m e e t in g s w e r e a t - a t S A AT. S h e w il l j u s t p o p u p a n d c o m e 10 t o m y o ff ic e . As k f o r c e r t a i n t h i n g s a n d s t u ff . So I do not remember the Shell Garage part. CHAIRPERSON: So I - I am - I … MS MEMELA: As much as I do not remember me giving her the m e m o r y s ti c k . CHAIRPERSON: I t a k e - I ta k e y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e t h a t y o u a r e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly d e n y i n g t h a t y o u h a d a m e e ti n g a t s o m e s t a g e w i t h h e r a t S h e l l G a r a g e , b u t y o u s a y y o u - y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. M S M E M E L A : N o . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MS MEMELA: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. S h e a ls o t o l d m e a b o u t a m e e t i n g t h a t s h e s a i d s h e h a d w i t h y o u a t a r e s t a u r a n t . Wa s i t M i m o s a ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t r e c a ll . CHAIRPERSON: At - when - when you broke … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . Page 37 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: The news to her that the tender had been given to … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A A R . CHAIRPERSON: AAR … MS MEMELA: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: A n d s h e s a id s h e - s h e c r i e d a n d y o u w e r e q u i te s u r p r is e d a t h e r r e a c t io n . D o y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t m e e t i n g w i t h h e r a t a t a r e s t a u r a n t i n A l b e r to n a g a i n ? M S M E M E L A : I d o r e m e m b e r t h a t m e e ti n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o r e m e m b e r t h a t o n e ? 10 M S M E M E L A : I r e m e m b e r th a t m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t h e r s a y in g I - I w a s q u it e s u r p r i s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: I a m n o t s u r e i f m a y b e s h e i s t r y i n g to p a i n t a p ic t u r e t h a t m a y b e I w a s n o t f e e li n g s o r r y f o r h e r o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: Well … MS MEMELA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n th e c o n tr a r y m y - my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th a t p a r t o f h e r e v i d e n c e is t h a t s h e w a s c o n v e y i n g t h a t y o u - y o u m a y h a v e f e l t 20 t h a t y o u - th a t t h is w a s b a d a n d t h a t y o u k n o w y o u d i d n o t e x p e c t h e r t o - to b e h u r t l ik e t h a t b y t h a t d e c is io n , b u t I - I d i d n o t g e t t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t s h e w a s s a y in g … M S M E M E L A : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y th in g i n th a t m e e t in g a t t h e r e s t a u r a n t t o h u r t h e r as such. Page 38 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS MEMELA: J a . I n h e r s t a te m e n t w h a t - m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t s h e w a s s a y i n g . S h e s a i d I w a n te d - m a y b e I w a n t e d h e r t o b e th e fir s t o n e t o t e ll h e r th e i n f o r m a t i o n . S i n c e lik e I k n e w t h a t - h o w s h e f e lt about AAR and whatever and I am saying that - that cannot be correct, b e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll w h e n w e m a d e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n . I t w e n t to th e B o a r d a n d t h e n I d o n o t k n o w h o w l o n g th e B o a r d t o o k a n d t h e n b e f o r e w e k n e w w e w e r e g e t ti n g c a l ls . 10 I cannot m e n ti o n n a m e h e r e , b e c a u s e I h a v e n o t m e n ti o n e d th e n a m e s fr o m - b u t w e w e r e g e t ti n g c a l ls f r o m a h i g h - t o p p e o p l e a s k i n g w h y d i d t h e B o a r d g iv e t h e t e n d e r to A A R a n d w e - w e e x p l a i n i n g t h a t w e h a v e fr o m s u p p ly c h a i n s u b m i t te d f o r A ir Fr a n c e a n d w e h a v e n o t e v e n r e c e iv e d t h e B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n y e t. A r s o n - h e is n o t b a c k y e t fr o m t h e m e e t i n g . I n f a c t e v e r y e v e r y b o d y w a s a lr e a d y g o i n g u p a n d d o w n d is c u s s i n g t h i s t h i n g a n d I d o n o t k n o w h o w i t w e n t o u t o f t h e B o a r d M e e t in g , b u t it w a s a l r e a d y d is c u s s e d a n d th e n b e f o r e w e k n e w i t . It w a s o n t h e n e w s a n d t h e n A A ir Fr a n c e w a s ta k i n g S A - S A AT t o c o u r t . 20 S o I a m s a y i n g i t is - it c a n n o t b e tr u e th a t I - I w e n t t o h e r t h e r e , b e c a u s e I w a n t e d m e t o b e t h e fi r s t p e r s o n to t e l l h e r. I c o u ld h a v e w e n t t h e r e t o - to te ll h e r, b e c a u s e I c o u ld te ll t h a t s h e w a s n o t o k a y a n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I h a v e - li k e I m e a n s h a r e d s o m e o f th e J V i n f o r m a ti o n a n d I w a s p r e p a r i n g h e r if s h e c o u l d m e e t u p w i th o t h e r m u l ti n a t io n a l s u p p l i e r s a n d s t u ff a n d it d o e s a ls o s h o w i n Page 39 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 t h is W h a ts A p p t h a t I h a v e a d v is e d h e r f r o m t h e b e g in n in g t h a t y o u c a n n o t h a v e a n y c l a i m f r o m s o m e b o d y i f y o u d o n o t h a v e a c o n tr a c t a n d I e v e n o ffe r e d i f I c o u l d d r a f t i t f o r fr e e , b e c a u s e I m e a n I - I th o u g h t m a y b e s h e w a s w o r r i e d a b o u t le g a l f e e s a n d s t u ff a n d I s a id I c a n d r a f t it fo r fr e e , b e c a u s e I w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t l ik e y o u h a v e a n e x c lu s iv e agreement from these people. S o m e s h a r in g th e J V w i th h e r w a s a c t u a l ly tr y i n g to h i g h l ig h t t o h e r t h a t t h i s is h o w y o u e n t e r i n to a J V a g r e e m e n t w it h m u l t in a t io n a l s u p p li e r s to e n s u r e t h a t y o u r r i g h ts a r e p r o t e c t e d a n d s t u ff , s o g o i n g 10 t h e r e a n d th e y e s s h e c r i e d , I r e m e m b e r t h a t , a n d t h e r e w a s n o t h in g I c o u l d d o a n d I h a d t o e x p l a i n to h e r t h a t r e m e m b e r a s m u c h a s m a y b e I c a r e d fo r y o u a n d y o u h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g s o h a r d o n th is c o m p o n e n t t e n d e r f r o m 2 0 1 2 a n d I w a s h o p i n g t h a t o n e d a y m a y b e y o u w i ll g e t a s u p p li e r t h a t y o u w il l w o r k w it h s u c c e s s fu ll y. I d i d s a y, C h a ir y o u p r o m i s e d t h a t y o u w i l l g iv e m e s o m e ti m e a t t h e e n d b u t I w a n t e d t o s a y t h a t th e o n l y o th e r p r o b le m I h a v e m e n ti o n e d a ls o i n my s t a te m e n t i s t h a t M s S a m b o h a d a s e v e r e ly s e n s e o f e n t i tl e m e n t , I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w m a n y s u p p li e r s I h a v e i n tr o d u c e d t o h e r. 20 Th e r e is o n e . . . [i n d is t in c t] a n d A e r o s p a c e w h e r e t h e la d y fr o m D u b a i w a s s u p p ly i n g p a r ts t o S A AT e v e r y d a y a n d th e n M s S a m b o s it a n d d o n o t h i n g b u t w h e n t h e i n v o i c e is s e n t to S A AT t o p a y s h e w il l g o a n d s a y o k a y b u t y o u a r e u s i n g m y n a m e a n d s t u ff a ls o , th a t i s w h e n I h a d – I t h o u g h t I h a d a n o b l ig a ti o n t o e x p l a i n to h e r th a t s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t is n o t a b o u t a b l a c k f a c e , y o u d o n ’ t j u s t s it a n d d o nothing. Page 40 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: O k a y I w i ll e x p l a i n th a t l a t e r C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: O k a y. Ye s , y e s , y e s , y o u w il l . B u t I j u s t g o t c a r r ie d a w a y. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y l e t’s – s o th e m e e t in g a t t h e r e s t a u r a n t y o u r e m e m b e r. MS MEMELA: I t d id t a k e p l a c e . CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: 10 T h e o n e a t t h e S h e ll G a r a g e y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r. I don’t remember that one. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e n o t s a y in g i t d i d n o t h a p p e n , y o u a r e j u s t s a y in g y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r. MS MEMELA: I don’t remember it yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o w p l e a s e e x p l a i n t o m e h o w g iv in g h e r in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t p r i c i n g f r o m p r e v i o u s t e n d e r s to g iv e t o M s J a c k s o n , if y o u d id g iv e , b e c a u s e I t h i n k y o u s a i d i f y o u d i d g i v e , h o w th a t w o u l d h a v e h e l p e d t h e m . W h y w o u l d t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n b e r e l e v a n t ? MS MEMELA: O k a y, u h m . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: 20 In your view? I th i n k i n m y v ie w th e n i f I h a d s h a r e d s u c h i n f o r m a ti o n w i t h S i b u n d i o n e t h i n g I’ d n o tic e d fr o m h e r i s t h a t s h e d i d n o t h a v e m u c h k n o w l e d g e a b o u t M R O a n d s h e d i d n o t h a v e m u c h k n o w le d g e a b o u t t h e k i n d o f p a r t s o r p a r t n u m b e r s o r w h a t e v e r th e k in d o f c o m p o n e n ts t h a t S A AT r e q u ir e s , s o t h o s e a r e th e k i n d o f i n f o r m a t io n t h a t I r e m e m b e r, A A R w h e n it w a s s t il l t e n d e r i n g w i t h h e r fr o m 2 0 1 2 , t h e y k e p t o n g e t ti n g d i s q u a l if i e d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e s h o r t o n c e r t a i n Page 41 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 p a r t n u m b e r s w h e n t h e y w e r e b i d d i n g , s o I t h in k i t w il l b e m a y b e s o m e t h i n g i n th a t w a y I w o u l d n o t ic e t h a t o k a y m a y b e w e s h o u l d d o s o m e t h i n g li k e t h i s n e x t ti m e . R e m e m b e r s o m e t i m e s y o u a s t h e h e a d o f s u p p ly c h a in o r th e C P O y o u c a n g iv e a p e r s o n a fe e d b a c k , th e r e a s o n w h y y o u d i d n o t s u c c e e d o n th e p r e v i o u s t e n d e r w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e s e g a p s a n d s tu ff , s o m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m a y b e t h e in f o r m a ti o n a r o u n d t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u a c c e p t th a t s h e c o u l d h a v e u s e d s u c h in f o r m a ti o n to t h e p r e j u d ic e o f a n y p r e v io u s b id d e r if t h e r e w a s a 10 t e n d e r, a s i m il a r te n d e r i n t h e f u t u r e ? MS MEMELA: N o C h a ir it w o u ld n ’ t b e t o t h e p r e j u d ic e t o o t h e r p r e v i o u s b i d d e r, r e m e m b e r t h e i n f o r m a t io n w i th t h e p r e v i o u s b i d d e r s w a s w o r k in g f o r th a t p r e v i o u s t e n d e r, t h a t o t h e r t e n d e r w o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g e ls e b e c a u s e C F S , o r C F S T w h e n t h e y g o o u t a n d k e e p o n g o i n g b a c k t o t h e b id d e r s a n d s a y i n g o k a y m a y b e y o u m u s t s h a r p e n u p y o u r p e n c il , d o t h is n o w, s o i t h a s n o th in g t o d o w i th t h e ir p r e v i o u s b i d . CHAIRPERSON: B u t if t h e r e is a s i m il a r t e n d e r i n t h e f u tu r e t h e n i f I h a v e a n i d e a w h a t t h a t c o m p e t i to r ’s p r ic i n g w a s a y e a r o r t w o a g o I c o u l d b e a b l e t o h a v e a g o o d i n d i c a t io n w h a t t h e ir l ik e l y p r ic i n g is a 20 y e a r l a te r is n ’ t it ? MS MEMELA: N o t r e a l ly C h a ir t h a t’s n o t h o w i t w o r k s . CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: W h y n o t? R e m e m b e r a s I s a id th a t t h is t e n d e r s t a r te d i n 2 0 1 3 , a n d i f w e c a n g e t , if w e h a d t h e t i m e f o r t h i s C o m m is s i o n s o t h a t e v e r y b o d y o u t t h e r e u n d e r s t a n d s i f w e h a d th e f il e f o r 2 0 1 3 v e r s u s Page 42 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 5 a n d th e l a s t o n e 2 0 1 6 w e w il l s e e l ik e h o w m u c h d i ffe r e n c e lik e i n te r ms o f t h e p r ic e s . It d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t o k a y b e c a u s e t h a t o n e b i d d e d , fo r i n s ta n c e I w i ll m a k e a n e x a m p le w it h A J W a l t e r s w i t h t h e ir B E E s u p p l i e r P e g a s u s , i n 2 0 1 4 t h e y b i d d e d e x tr e m e l y l o w, e x tr e m e l y lo w, a n d th r o u g h P e g a s u s a n d t h e n w e h a d a p r o b l e m th a t o k a y b e c a u s e P e g a s u s w a s g o i n g t o s u b - c o n tr a c t to A J Wa l te r s a n d t h e n o u t o f th e b l u e th e n r e m e m b e r t h e P P FA d o e s n o t a c t u a l ly e v e n a l lo w th a t 2 5 % , m o r e t h a n 2 5 % s u b - c o n tr a c t in g , t h a t is th e r e a s o n th a t t h e y c o u ld n ’ t g e t , t h a t w a s 2 0 1 4 . 10 I f y o u c a n c h e c k t h e s u b m is s io n o f t h e A J Wa l te r s in 2 0 1 6 , t h e fi n a l t e n d e r t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e y w e r e d i s q u a li f ie d t h e y k e p t o n g o i n g u p in s te a d s o t h a t ’s w h y I a m t r y i n g t o s a y th a t i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t lik e w h e n it c o m e s it ’s c o m in g fr o m t h e p r e v i o u s t e n d e r t h e n w h e n y o u r u n a n o th e r t e n d e r t h e s u p p li e r a u t o m a ti c a ll y g o e s lo w e r t h a n t h e p r e v i o u s o n e , a n d r e m e m b e r th a t p r e v i o u s o n e , t h e fi v e y e a r p e r io d t e n d e r v e r s u s – t h e f iv e m o n th s p e r i o d t e n d e r v e r s u s t h e fi v e y e a r p e r i o d t e n d e r, t h o s e a r e tw o d i ff e r e n t p e r io d s . Yo u k n o w t h a t ’s t h e r e a s o n w h y w e e v e n e n d e d u p g iv in g t o A ir F r a n c e w h i c h w a s t h e c u r r e n t s u p p l i e r a t th a t ti m e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ms H o f m e y r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m i n d e b t e d f o r t h o s e f o ll o w u p q u e s ti o n s . W i th y o u r l e a v e I d o p r o p o s e t o m o v e to t h e n e x t to p ic . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s fi n e y e s . Page 43 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. M s M e m e l a th a t w a s g o i n g t o b e in y o u r B u n d le 2 5 A , D D 2 5 A a n d t o p ic k i t u p a t p a g e 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON: I s e e w e a r e a t q u a r te r p a s t b u t I a m q u it e h a p p y to t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k a t h a l f p a s t u n l e s s th e w i tn e s s o r s o m e b o d y p l e a d s that we take the break now? MS MEMELA: Is it D D ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y D D 2 5 A b u t w e ’r e p r o p o s i n g 1 5 m o r e m i n u t e s a n d t h e n w e w i ll b r e a k ? CHAIRPERSON: 10 MS MEMELA: J a , w e w il l t a k e th e te a b r e a k a t h a l f p a s t . O k a y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MS MEMELA: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Which page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: W h ic h b u n d l e a r e w e g o i n g t o ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Page 10. D D 2 5 A C h a ir. T h e o n e t h a t h a s g o t Ms M e m e la ’s s t a t e m e n t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , a n d w e a r e g o i n g to b e i n h e r s t a te m e n t a t p a g e 1 0 . 20 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms M e m e l a th e r e ’s a p a r a g r a p h j u s t b e f o r e t h e h e a d i n g o n th a t p a g e w h ic h r e a d s “ d i s c u s s io n s w it h A A R ” , d o y o u s e e that? MS MEMELA: I see that. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u t a l k a b o u t th e r u l e Page 44 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 o f a te n d e r t h a t d o e s n o t a ll o w b i d d e r s t o m e e t w i t h a n y o n e w h o is a d e c is i o n m a k e r fr o m t h e c o m p a n y w h il e t h e t e n d e r is s ti ll r u n n i n g , d o you see that? MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : s a y in g that there A n d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u in t h is p a r a g r a p h to b e had been previous m e e ti n g s between Mr B e z u id e n h o u t a n d M r P a r s o n s t h a t y o u r e g a r d e d a s i n c o n f lic t w i t h th a t rule, is that correct? MS MEMELA: 10 O k a y, c a n w e r e a d u n t il t h e e n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MS MEMELA: Ye s c e r t a i n ly, w h y d o n ’ t y o u d o s o . O k a y I s a i d a t t h e e n d t h e r e “ b u t A ir Fr a n c e w a s n o t d is q u a l if i e d b e c a u s e M r B e z u i d e n h o u t a n d Mr P a r s o n s w e r e n o t p a r t o f t h e e v a l u a ti o n n o r a d ju d i c a t io n te a m . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MS MEMELA: Th a n k y o u , n o t h a t d o e s c la r i fy. I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e r e y o u r e a d a b o u t t h e c o n fl ic t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o a p o lo g i e s , t h a t i s m y e r r o r, I w a s c o n fu s i n g e v i d e n c e y o u g a v e p r e v io u s ly w h e r e y o u s a i d y o u w a n te d to g o t o t h e M r B e z u id e n h o u t is s u e a n d I h a d u n d e r s t o o d f r o m y o u r t e s t i m o n y t h a t y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d th a t h e h a d b r e a c h e d th e r u le o f t h e te n d e r, b u t 20 y o u h a v e c l a r if i e d fo r m e n o w, y o u w e r e n ’t s a y in g h e b r e a c h e d it , b u t c a n I j u s t c l a r i fy, d o y o u r e g a r d i t a s a r u l e o f t e n d e r p r o c u r e m e n t th a t y o u c a n ’ t m e e t w i th a b i d d e r, i f y o u a r e p a r t o f a d e c i s i o n m a k i n g b o d y in r e l a ti o n t o t h a t te n d e r w h i l e i t is s t il l o p e n . MS MEMELA: C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h a t q u e s t io n , a n d c o r r e c t e if I d i d n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d it w e ll , i t s a y s – s h e s a y s i f y o u a r e p a r t o f t h e Page 45 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 d e c is i o n m a k i n g b o d y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , l e t m e p u t t h e q u e s t io n th is w a y, is i t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t i f s o m e b o d y i s p a r t o f t h e d e c i s i o n - m a k in g p r o c e s s in r e g a r d t o a t e n d e r th a t p e r s o n m a y n o t m e e t w i th s o m e b o d y w h o is b i d d i n g f o r th e te n d e r b e f o r e d e c i s i o n s h a v e b e e n m a d e ? MS MEMELA: C h a ir w e d o n o t h a v e a s p e c i fi c p r o v is i o n fr o m th e s u p p ly c h a i n t h a t t a l k s t o th a t . M s H o f m e y r r e a d fr o m t h e b i d , t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t a t i o n w h e n s h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t w h o is p r o h ib i te d t o meet. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t h a n g o n , h a n g o n , h a n g o n , s h e i s n o t a s k in g w h a t t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t s a y s , s h e i s a s k i n g w h e t h e r i t i s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t i t is n o t a l l o w e d f o r s o m e b o d y w h o is i n v o lv e d i n d e c is i o n m a k in g i n r e g a r d t o a t e n d e r t o m e e t w i t h a b i d d e r b e f o r e t h e t e n d e r is f in a l is e d , s h e i s a s k i n g y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g . MS MEMELA: O k a y m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o n t h e t e n d e r s is b a s e d o n t h e d e l e g a ti o n o f a u th o r it y. R e m e m b e r I s a i d t h e s e t e n d e r s w e r e w i th i n t h e d e l e g a t io n a u t h o r it y o f t h e B o a r d a n d th e B o a r d is t h e d e c is i o n m a k e r, t h e fi n a l d e c is io n m a k e r w h e n i t c o m e s to th e t e n d e r s , s o f o r m e t o s a y I th i n k i t is w r o n g f o r d e c is i o n m a k e r s to m e e t s u p p li e r s , o r 20 m a y b e p o t e n t ia l s u p p l ie r s I w o u l d b e w r o n g b e c a u s e w e a l l k n o w, a l l o v e r S o u t h A fr ic a , n o t j u s t S A A o r S A AT in c o r p o r a te S t a t e O w n e d C o m p a n ie s , b o a r d m e m b e r s m e e t w i th t h e ir s u p p li e r s a n d d is c u s s w it h t h e m , s o I w o u ld b e w r o n g t o s a y o k a y t h e y a r e n o t a l lo w e d b e c a u s e t h a t w o u l d b e c o m i n g fr o m m e , I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h p r o v is io n o f t h e le g i s l a ti o n th a t w o u ld b e p r o h i b i t in g t h e m f r o m d o i n g th a t . Page 46 of 217 Maybe I 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , n o I th i n k y o u d o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t q u e s t io n . Ms Hofmeyr? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, i t is j u s t y o u r o w n s ta t e m e n t M s M e m e la , t h a t is w h a t I a m w o r k in g fr o m , s o y o u r s ta t e m e n t a t p a g e 1 0 s a y s th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h b e f o r e th e h e a d in g : “ T h i s is a ls o th e ti m e w h e n A ir Fr a n c e w e n t a n d m e t w i t h t h e t h e n a c ti n g C E O , M r N ic o B e z u id e n h o u t a n d M r B a r r y Parsons.” 10 A n d t h is i s t h e p a r t I w o u l d l ik e t o e m p h a s i z e : “ . . .a g a i n s t t h e r u le o f t h e te n d e r t h a t d o e s n o t a ll o w b id d e r s t o m e e t w i t h a n y o n e w h o i s a d e c i s i o n m a k e r fr o m t h e c o m p a n y w h ils t t h e t e n d e r i s s ti ll r u n n in g . ” I a m t a k i n g i t fr o m y o u r o w n s ta t e m e n t, i s th a t c o n s i s te n t w i t h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t i t i s a r u l e o f t e n d e r p r o c u r e m e n t t h a t t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e d e c is i o n m a k e r c a n n o t m e e t w i th a b i d d e r w h il e th e t e n d e r i s s t il l open. MS MEMELA: N o , n o , C h a ir I w o u ld s a y th e n s h e is u s i n g a w r o n g r e fe r e n c e th e r e i n tr y in g to r a i s e h e r p o in t . 20 Mr Bezuidenhout and Mr P a r s o n s d i d n o t s it i n t h e B o a r d o f S A AT t h a t to o k th e f in a l d e c i s i o n o f t h e t e n d e r s , s o th e y w e r e n o t t h e d e c is i o n m a k e r s o f S A AT. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll l e t’s s t a r t b y w h a t y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t s h e r e fe r s t o m e a n s , b e c a u s e s h e i s b a s i n g h e r q u e s t io n s o n w h a t t h e s t a te m e n t s a y s . Yo u s a y i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h t h is i s a l s o t h e ti m e w h e n A ir Fr a n c e w e n t a n d m e t t h e t h e n A c ti n g C E O M r N ic o B e z u i d e n h o u t . Page 47 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 S o n o w w e k n o w A ir Fr a n c e a n d M r B e z u i d e n h o u t m e t a n d M r B a r r y P a r s o n s a ls o , i t w a s t h e t w o o f t h e m , a n d y o u s a y a g a i n s t t h e r u l e o f t h e te n d e r t h a t d o e s n o t a l l o w b i d d e r s t o m e e t w i t h a n y o n e w h o m i s a d e c is i o n m a k e r fr o m th e c o m p a n y w h i ls t t h e t e n d e r is s ti ll r u n n in g . I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t s e n t e n c e to s a y t h e r e is a r u l e r e la t in g to t e n d e r s t h a t p r o h ib i ts m e e ti n g s b e tw e e n b id d e r s a n d a n y o n e fr o m t h e c o m p a n y w h o is a d e c i s i o n m a k e r w h il e t h e t e n d e r is r u n n i n g . Is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g h e r e c o r r e c t ? MS MEMELA: 10 C h a ir t h e t e n d e r r u l e I m a y h a v e b e e n r e f e r r i n g t o t h e p r o v i s i o n th a t M s H o f m e y r w a s r e fe r r i n g t o y e s t e r d a y a n d r e m e m b e r I did say that we never got that d o c u m e n t a ti o n , and so but I . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t h a n g o n , l e t ’s g o b a c k t o o u r c r is p a n s w e r s lik e y e s te r d a y. S o m y q u e s ti o n is I to l d y o u w h a t my u n d e r s t a n d in g is o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g h e r e , m y q u e s ti o n is w h e th e r m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is n o t c o r r e c t ? MS MEMELA: O k a y, I . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: I r e p e a t i t , I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o b e s a y in g in t h is s t a te m e n t i t is – th e r e is a r u l e r e l a t i n g t o t e n d e r s th a t p r o h i b i ts th e 20 m e e ti n g b e t w e e n a b id d e r a n d a d e c is i o n m a k e r i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t t e n d e r fr o m t h e c o m p a n y w h ils t th e t e n d e r is r u n n in g . Is my u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h e r e c o r r e c t? MS MEMELA: O k a y, ja m a y b e C h a ir t h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t I w a s s a y i n g , b u t n o w t h e s e n te n c e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, I d i d n ’ t h e a r w h a t y o u s a i d , j u s t r e p e a t . Page 48 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: I a m s a y i n g t h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t I w a s s a y in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s n o w b u t is i t a c o r r e c t u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t i t is a s fa r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d ? MS MEMELA: N o t p e r s e C h a ir b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a c o n t in u a ti o n in t e r m s o f th e p a r a g r a p h . CHAIRPERSON: J a , j u s t te ll m e w h a t y o u s a y y o u u n d e r s t a n d th e s t a te m e n t y e s t e r d a y t o m e a n ? MS MEMELA: 10 O k a y, I s a id t h is is a ls o t h e t i m e w h e n A ir Fr a n c e w e n t a n d m e t t h e t h e n Ac t in g C E O , Mr B e z u i d e n h o u t a n d M r B a r r y P a r s o n s , a g a in s t th e r u le o f t h e t e n d e r t h a t d o e s n o t a l lo w t h e b i d d e r s t o m e e t w i t h a n y o n e a n d I s a i d in b r a c k e t s w h o m is a d e c is io n m a k e r fr o m t h e c o m p a n y w h ils t t h e t e n d e r i s s ti ll r u n n in g , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] J a , a n d w h a t is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t t h a t m e a n s , is i t d i ff e r e n t fr o m m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e r e is a r u l e ? MS MEMELA: Ye s , it d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n w h e n I p u t d e c is i o n m a k e r s w i t h i n t h e b r a c k e t I w a s s a y i n g th e y w e r e t h e d e c i s i o n m a k e r s o f S A AT, b u t r e m e m b e r th e y c o u l d i n fl u e n c e t h e d e c is io n b e c a u s e o f the role they hold. 20 CHAIRPERSON: No, no leave out as to whether Mr Bezuidenhout and M r P a r s o n s w e r e d e c is i o n m a k e r s ; l e t ’s j u s t t a k e w h a t th e i r r o l e m e a n s t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o , I a m s a y in g I u n d e r s t a n d y o u to b e s a y in g t h e r e is a r u l e r e la t in g t o t e n d e r s th a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o m e e ti n g b e t w e e n a b i d d e r a n d s o m e b o d y w i th in t h e c o m p a n y w h o w il l b e in v o lv e d i n d e c is io n m a k i n g i n r e l a ti o n to a p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r t o m e e t. Page 49 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t d i ff e r e n tl y ? J u s t w h a t t h a t r u l e is th a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o . MS MEMELA: C h a ir I t h i n k th e n m a y b e h o w m y s ta t e m e n t i s w r i tt e n b e c a u s e w h e n I a d d t h a t , b u t A ir F r a n c e w a s n o t d i s q u a l i fi e d b e c a u s e t h e s e tw o g u y s t h a t I h a v e m e n ti o n e d h e r e d o n o t s i t i n th e e v a lu a ti o n c o m m i t t e e a n d t h e b id e v a l u a ti o n c o m m i t t e e . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o I a c c e p t th a t . R e m e m b e r t h a t w h a t I a m s ti ll tr y i n g t o e s t a b li s h n o w i s , is t h e r e a r u l e a n d i f th e r e is w h a t d o e s i t s a y, t h a t i s w i th o u t a p p ly i n g i t t o M r B e z u i d e n h o u t a n d M r P a r s o n s , j u s t 10 w h a t th e r u l e is th a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g to , s o th a t i t is a t t h e g e n e r a l le v e l t h a t I a m t a lk i n g . MS MEMELA: T h e r e is n o r u le C h a ir th a t I k n o w o f. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: to t h e ir Ja. As I s a i d t h a t m o s t o f t h e s e d e c is io n m a k e r s a c c o r d in g d e l e g a t io n o f a u th o r i ty they w o u ld meet with p o t e n ti a l s u p p li e r s , s u p p l ie r s a n d d is c u s s c e r ta in in f o r m a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Mm m, but remember that the fact that they meet d o e s n ’t n e c e s s a r ily m e a n , s h o u ld n ’ t n e c e s s a r ily m e a n th e r e w a s n o r u l e b e c a u s e th e y c o u ld b e m e e t in g s u p p li e r s in b r e a c h o f t h e r u l e , s o a r e 20 y o u s a y in g t h a t i n th is , t h is s ta t e m e n t s h o u l d n o t b e ta k e n t o s a y y o u a r e s a y i n g t h e r e is a r u l e . MS MEMELA: J a , b e c a u s e I a m t h is p e r s o n C h a ir w h o w h e n I r e fe r t o s o m e t h i n g o r w h e n I a g r e e t o s a y o k a y t h a t i s t h e r u l e , I s h a ll b e a b le t o p ic k i t u p a n d s a y o k a y t h i s is t h e r u l e , t h is i s t h e p a r a g r a p h t h a t s a y s th a t . S o t h a t ’s w h y I a m s a y in g I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r o f a n y r u l e th a t Page 50 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 – o th e r t h a n t h a t r u l e in t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s r e a d b y M s H o f m e y r y e s t e r d a y. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, Ms H o f m e y r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s M r H u m a n ’s e v i d e n c e , h e n o w i s i n a n a c ti n g p o s i t io n in t h e p o s it i o n t h a t y o u p r e v io u s ly o c c u p ie d a s th e h e a d o f s u p p l y . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r t o d o t h is t o y o u , Ms M e m e l a I j u s t w a n t to c l o s e o ff o u r d is c u s s i o n a f e w m i n u te s a g o . I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e m a y b e o n Fr i d a y o r m a y b e y e s t e r d a y t o a ls o b e t o t h e 10 e ffe c t t h a t t h e reason why th e r e was n o th in g wrong with you c o m m u n ic a ti n g w it h J M Av ia t io n a n d s o o n w a s b e c a u s e y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g t o b e i n v o l v e d i n a n y d e c is i o n m a k in g ? MS MEMELA: I w a s n o t g o i n g t o – I w a s n o t in v o lv e d in t h e C F S T. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: Ye s , b u t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] I n t h e e v a lu a ti o n c o m m i t t e e . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is m y r e c o ll e c ti o n o f y o u r e v id e n c e th a t y o u t h o u g h t p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n y o u u s e d to j u s ti fy t h e f a c t t h a t y o u w e r e c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i t h t h e m w a s th a t y o u w e r e n o t g o in g to b e i n v o l v e d i n d e c is i o n m a k i n g a n d t h e r e f o r e i f y o u a r e n o t in v o lv e d i n d e c is i o n 20 making there is no problem. Is m y r e c o l l e c ti o n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e wrong? MS MEMELA: Ye s t h a t is a c o r r e c t r e c o l le c t i o n C h a ir b u t i t w a s in a d d it i o n t o s a y I d o n ’ t y e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, n o w th e r e a s o n w h y I a m r e f e r r in g to it is b e c a u s e it s e e m s t o b e c o n s is te n t w i t h th i s s ta t e m e n t t h a t w e h a v e j u s t Page 51 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 b e e n d is c u s s i n g . MS MEMELA: O k a y s o r e m e m b e r th e r e w a s e v e n a p a r t w h e r e M s H o f m e y r a s k e d i f w h e n I s i g n o r w h e n I s i g n e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o t h e B o a r d w a s I s ig n i n g a s t h e E x c o m e m b e r a n d I e x p l a i n e d t h a t n o I w a s s ig n in g a s H O D S C M , s u p p o r ti n g t h e C F S T b e c a u s e s h e w a s g e t t in g t o a p o in t w h e r e s h e w a n te d t o f i n d o u t w h o m a k e s a d e c i s i o n , s h e e v e n a s k e d m e C h a ir s o i s i t j u s t a r e c o m m e n d a t io n . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: I s a id w h y w a s B A C c a l le d a d ju d i c a t in g c o m m i t t e e i f it d o e s n o t a d j u d i c a t e . 10 MS MEMELA: Ye s , i t d o e s n o t t a k e a d e c is i o n e x a c tly, a n d I s a i d b e c a u s e o f t h e d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty t h e f i n a l d e c i s i o n m a k e r f a lls w i t h i n t h e te n d e r, s o r r y th e B o a r d o f S A AT b e c a u s e i t w a s w it h in t h e d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e p o in t , t h e r e a s o n w h y I a m r e f e r r i n g y o u t o y o u r e v i d e n c e , a s I d o , i s t h a t I a m s a y i n g if t h a t is w h a t y o u s a i d t o ju s t i fy y o u r i n t e r a c ti o n s , e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h J M i t i s c o n s i s t e n t w i t h w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o b e s a y in g i n t h i s s e n te n c e n a m e ly I a m n o t b r e a k i n g a n y r u l e b y g e tt i n g i n v o lv e d w i t h J M a n d d is c u s s i n g w i t h t h e m b e c a u s e I a m n o t in v o lv e d i n d e c is i o n m a k i n g , b y i m p lic a t io n i f I w a s 20 in v o lv e d i n d e c i s i o n m a k i n g I w o u ld b e b r e a k i n g a r u le i f I e n g a g e d w i t h J M. MS MEMELA: Ye s C h a ir, th a t is w h a t I j u s t s a i d t h a t i t w a s i n a d d i ti o n a ls o , l ik e I a d d e d t h a t b u t a l s o I d i d n o t t a k e a d e c i s i o n t o t h is t e n d e r to award to them. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Page 52 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: I n a d d i ti o n t o t h e c r o s s fu n c t io n a l e v o l u ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t w h a t i t l e a d s t o a n d I j u s t w a n t y o u t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t , w h a t i t l e a d s to i s t h a t i f t h a t w a s y o u r e v id e n c e t h e n it is c o n tr a d ic t o r y f o r y o u i f y o u n o w s a y t h e r e is n o s u c h r u le , b e c a u s e y o u h a v e n o w s a id , a n d y o u m u s t t e ll m e if I h a v e m i s u n d e r s to o d , y o u h a v e n o w s a id n o , n o , n o th e r e is n o s u c h r u l e . MS MEMELA: N o , o k a y C h a ir .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: 10 Have I misunderstood you? J a , I a m r e a lly c o n fu s e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: Okay maybe – yes? I a m r e a lly c o n fu s e d b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e w a y i t is in t e r p r e t e d h o w I h a d r e s p o n d e d t o s a y I d id n o t s e e a n y c o n f li c t o f in t e r e s t b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t s i t i n th e b i d e v a l u a ti o n c o m m i t t e e . CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: Ye s , y e s . A n d I e v e n s a id – a n d a ls o i n a d d i ti o n t o t h a t I d id n o t t a k e a d e c i s i o n o r m a k e a d e c i s i o n o r e v e n r e c o m m e n d f o r t h e m to b e a w a r d e d a te n d e r. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: 20 Ye s , y e s . S o ja n o w it is – w h a t c o n fu s e s m e is t h e r u l e v e r s u s what I had said. CHAIRPERSON: J a , y o u s e e a t a c e r ta i n l e v e l i t lo o k s s tr a n g e t o m e t h a t y o u w o u l d b e e n g a g e d w i t h J M th e w a y y o u w e r e e n g a g e d . A t a c e r t a i n le v e l w h e n y o u s a y a s l o n g a s I w a s i n v o lv e d in d e c is i o n m a k i n g I w a s n o t b r e a k i n g a n y r u l e , t h e r e is s o m e th in g t o b e l o o k e d a t t h e r e b e c a u s e i t m a y b e th a t i t m a k e s s e n s e t h a t a s l o n g a s y o u a r e n o t Page 53 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 g o i n g to b e in v o lv e d in a n y d e c i s i o n m a k in g w h a t is t h e p r o b l e m , b u t t h e r e is s ti ll s o m e t h in g a b o u t t h a t e n g a g e m e n t t h a t I t h in k n e e d s c la r i fi c a t io n . MS MEMELA: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t n o w w i t h s p e c i a l r e fe r e n c e t o t h is I a m s i m p ly s a y in g I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d y o u in r e l a ti o n t o t h i s s ta t e m e n t in th a t p a r a g r a p h a t p a g e 1 0 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d y o u to s a y y e s t h e r e w a s a r u l e o r I b e li e v e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a r u l e , w h e t h e r it w a s a r u l e th a t i s w r i t t e n d o w n o r ju s t a r u l e th a t is u n d e r s t o o d b y 10 e v e r y b o d y, e v e n t h o u g h n o t w r i t t e n d o w n , t h a t i f y o u a r e i n v o l v e d i n d e c is i o n m a k i n g y o u c a n ’ t b e h a v i n g m e e t in g s w i t h o n e o r m o r e o f t h e b i d d e r s a n d t h a t f o r m e w o u l d b e c o n s is t e n t w it h w h a t y o u s a i d w h e n y o u s a id th e r e is n o th i n g w r o n g w i t h m e e n g a g i n g w i t h J M b e c a u s e I a m n o t in v o lv e d in d e c is i o n m a k i n g . S o I a m m a k in g th is s o t h a t y o u g e t a c h a n c e t o c o m m e n t a n d if t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g m is s in g y o u g e t a c h a n c e to s a y h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t m a y b e c o n f u s in g y o u C h a ir. MS MEMELA: O k a y C h a ir, n o w le t m e tr y a n d g o b e c a u s e I a m tr y in g t o r e m e m b e r b a c k a t t h e t i m e . M s M ic h e l l e L a l l o o w h o w a s r e p o r ti n g t o 20 m e a t th a t ti m e , I w a s d r iv i n g t o E a s t e r n C a p e a n d s h e w r o t e m e a l o n g e m a i l s a y in g s h e is c o m i n g fr o m a m e e ti n g b e tw e e n M r B e z u i d e n h o u t a n d M r P a r s o n s , it w a s A i r Fr a n c e t h a t w a s a c t u a ll y p r e s e n t in g w h a t w a s – th e y h a d b id d e d i n t h a t b i d t h a t y e a r. S o h e r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a t t h a t ti m e w h e n s h e c a m e t o m e w a s t h a t th e r e is th is r o l e a n d r e m e m b e r s h e a c tu a lly p r i n te d j u s t p a r t o f t h a t l e g is la t io n , w h i c h i f I Page 54 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 r e m e m b e r i t w a s r e g u la t io n 1 6 A o f th e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y R e g u la t io n s a n d a ft e r I s a i d r e m e m b e r y e s t e r d a y I s a i d I e n g a g e d l e g a l fr o m S A A , I engaged Dr Dhawas who was the CPO of SAA, and upon talking and s i tt i n g d o w n a n d t h e n a ls o w h e n I h a d a l r e a d y r e tu r n e d t o A ir F r a n c e a s k in g th e m w h y s h o u ld I n o t d i s q u a l i fy t h e m w e r e a lis e d I t h i n k u p o n r e a d in g t h e p r o p e r a p p li c a b i li ty o f R e g u l a ti o n 1 6 A th a t w e f o u n d o u t t h a t i t d id n o t a p p l y t o a Sc h e d u le 2 c o m p a n y s o th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e r u le t h a t I t h o u g h t t h e y a c te d a g a in s t a t t h a t t i m e , s o th a t ’s w h y I a m th i n k i n g t h e r e is n o r u l e a t S A AT b u t a t t h a t t i m e w h e n s h e c a m e t o 10 c o m p la i n t o m e a n d th e n w e t o o k s t e p s a n d s a t o n th e m e e ti n g a n d d is c u s s e d h o w w e a r e g o i n g t o h a n d l e t h i s , i t w a s 1 6 A a n d w e r e a l is e d t h a t 1 6 A d o e s n o t a p p l y t o Sc h e d u le 2 c o m p a n ie s . S o th e r e a s o n w h y I d i d n o t p u t t h a t h e r e is b e c a u s e l ik e w e h a d s in c e r e a l is e d t h a t w e h a d a p p l ie d th e w r o n g r u l e . S o t h a t ’s w h y y o u s e e t h e r e . . . [i n d i s t in c t ] w o u l d c o l lu d e d is q u a l if y i n g t h e m b e c a u s e t h e r e a s o n w i t h th e b i d d e r w o u l d b e d is q u a l if i e d w o u ld b e t h e n i f M r P a r s o n s a n d M r B e z u i d e n h o u t w o u ld s i t in t h e b i d e v a l u a t io n c o m m i t t e e . CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y, I t h i n k w e s h o u l d t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: I n d e e d C h a ir. W e a r e a t t w e n ty s e v e n m in u t e s t o , s h a ll w e r e s u m e a t f iv e t o t w e lv e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: C e r t a i n l y, t h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s , w e w il l a d j o u r n a n d w e w il l r e s u m e a t fi v e to t w e lv e . W e a d j o u r n . Page 55 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 REGISTRAR: A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: MS MB A N J WA: L e t u s p u t o n th e m ic . Ye s . Ye s , I ju s t w a n t to a p o lo g is e . It is n o t th a t w e w e r e la te . Mis s Me me la is r e a lly n o t fe e lin g w e ll, b u t s h e w a n ts to c o n tin u e . O n e o f th e le g a l te a m, th e in v e s tig a to r h a s a s ke d , h a s s a id h e w ill b r in g a G r a n d p a , s o I ju s t w a s c he ck in g u p o n th is C H A IR PER SO N: 10 MS MB A N J WA: Mis s Me me lo . Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : Ye s . Th a t is fin e . Th a t is fin e . Mis s Me me la . Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : I a m h a p p y th a t y o u a r e a b le to c o n tin u e . I a m a b le to c o n tin u e C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. Alr ig h t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : Th a n k y o u , C h a ir. An d th e n p u t o n y o u r mic . It is o n , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: 20 [in te r v e n e s ]. O k a y. O h , I th in k th e b o t t le w a s … A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : C H A IR PER SO N: O b s c u r ing it? J a . O k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u , C h a ir. Mis s Me me la , I w o u ld lik e to p ic k it u p a t th e s e co n d o f th e fiv e - ye a r co mp o n e n t’s te n d e rs . D o y ou r e c a ll th a t th a t te n d e r w a s is su e d in Oc to b er 2 0 1 4 . Do e s th a t ac c or d w ith y o u r me mo ry ? Page 56 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS ME MELA : C a n I a s k Mis s H o fme yr to r e p e a t th e q u e s tio n , p le a s e ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Su r e . So , th e r e w a s a se r ie s o f th e s e te n de r s o v e r time , r ig h t? Th e s ec o n d on e , ju s t fo r th e r e c or d th a t w a s SP4 3 7 o f 1 4 th a t is o n e th a t c a me s e c o nd , a n d it w a s a fiv e - y e a r te n de r a n d it w a s is s u e d o n th e 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 . D o y o u a g r e e w ith th a t? MS ME MELA : W h e r e a r e y o u r e a d ing Mis s H o fme y r ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : MS ME MELA : O k a y C h a ir, I c a n n o t a g r e e o n s o me th in g I d o n o t h a v e . C H A IR PER SO N: 10 N o , it is my n o te . Ye s , s h e w a s a s k in g w h e th e r w h a t s h e is s a y in g a c c or d s to y o u r r e co lle c tio n a n d if y o u d o n o t r e c a ll y o u c a n s a y y o u d o n o t r e c a ll. MS MEM ELA : O k a y C h a ir, b e c au s e lik e th e r e w e r e lo ts o f - o f - o f te n d e r s . C H A IR PER SO N: O r if th e r e is s o me th in g y o u w a n t to lo o k a t th a t w o u ld h e lp y o u r e me mb er th a t is fin e . MS ME MELA : An d I w o u ld r e q u e s t Mis s H o fme y r to g o b a c k to my s ta te me n t b e c a u se th e r e w a s s o me w he r e , ...[in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: MS MEMELA : 20 W h e r e y o u h a d wr itte n th a t. Ye s . W h e r e I h a d g ive n th e m th e h is to ry o f th e c o mp o n en t te n d e r s fr o m 2 0 1 3 u p to s o ma y b e s o like th a t w h e n s h e q u o te s a c e r ta in te n d er I a m a b le to - w e a r e in th e s a me p a g e . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s , in d e e d . L e t me ta k e y o u th e r e . I h a v e n o t a n tic ip a te d th a t it w o u ld b e c o n te n tio us . So , le t me ju s t ta k e y o u th e r e it is in D D 2 5 ( a) a n d y ou w ill fin d it a t p a g e 8 a t th e b o t to m. MS ME MELA : A lr ig h t. I h a v e g o t it C h a ir. Page 57 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In y o u r o w n s ta te me n t y o u s a id , “Th e s e c o n d te n d er w h ic h w as SP4 3 7 /1 4 wa s is su e d o n th e 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 .” D o y o u s ee th a t? C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : R ig h t a t th e b o tto m. J a . Ye s , C h a ir. A D V K ATE HO FMEYR : So , w e a r e o n th e s a me p a ge it w a s is su e d o n th e 2 9 t h ? MS ME MELA : 10 We a r e o n th e s a me p a g e . Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : C o r r ec t, a n d th e n b y th e mid d le o f 2 0 1 5 th a t te n d e r w a s s till o p e n , c o r r ec t? MS ME MELA : H mm? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : MS MEM ELA : In th e s e n s e it h a d n o t b e e n d e c id e d y e t? In th e mid d le o f 2 0 1 5 it lo o k s lik e , C ha ir w e ar e o n th e s a me p a g e w h e r e it s ay s d a te re tr a c te d . L oo k s lik e it w as r e tr ac te d 2 2 o f J u n e 2 0 15 . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s , s o , s o r r y. So , le t me b e mu c h mo r e s pe c ific s o in Ma y o f 2 0 1 5 th e te n d e r w a s s till o p e n ? C H A IR PER SO N: 20 Mis s H o fme y r wh e n yo u s a y it w as s till o p e n a re y o u d is r e ga r d in g th e r e tr ac tio n s o r a r e yo u s a y in g th e r e h a d b e e n n o r e tr a c tio n in th e me a n time . ADV K ATE H O FMEYR : No, not at that p o in t yet b e c a us e as Mis s Me me la h a s c o r r ec tly p o in te d o u t a t p a g e 9 . H e r r e c o r d s r e co r d th a t it w a s r e tr ac te d o n 2 2 J u ne 2 0 1 5 . So ju s t to g e t th e c h r o n o log y r ig h t, it is is s u ed o n th e 2 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 14 a s Mis s Me me la c or r ec tly s ta te s a t Page 58 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 p a g e 9 it w a s r e tr a c te d o n 2 2 J u n e 2 0 1 5 . So , my fo llo w - u p q u e s tio n w a s a s a c o n s e qu e nc e o f th a t in Ma y 2 0 1 5 it w a s s till o p e n . Correct Mis s Me me la ? C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : O k a y. O h , 2 0 1 5 ? Ye s , it w a s s till o p e n a cc o r d ing to th e … A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : MS ME MELA : Ac c o r d in g to y o ur sta te me n t? J a , a c c o r d in g to th e h is to r y, ja . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s , a n d i t w a s d u r in g Ma y 2 0 1 5 th a t y o u a n d th r e e me mb e r s o f th e SAAT Bo a r d tr a v e lle d to AAR in th e U n ite d Sta te s . 10 Is th a t c o r r e c t? MS ME MELA : Th a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So th a t w a s a t a t ime w h e n th e te n d e r w as s till o p e n a n d AAR h a d b id in th a t te n d e r, c o r r ect? MS ME MELA : A AR h a d b id e d in th is te n d e r. Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d a mo n g s t th e pe o p le a cc o mp a ny in g y o u we r e me mb e r s o f th e SAAT Bo a r d , is th a t c o r r e c t? MS ME MELA : Ye s , th e y w e r e me mb e rs o f t h e SAAT Bo a r d . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e y w e r e I th in k w e h ad fr o m e v id e nc e p r e v iou s ly th ey w er e Miss Kw e n a na , Mr Zw a n e a n d D r Ta mb i, is th a t 20 c o r re c t? MS ME MELA : Ye s , Mr Zw a n e is th e - w a s th e C EO o f SA AT. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : R ig h t s o a n e x e c u tiv e me mb e r o f th e Bo a r d a n d Mis s Kw e na n a a nd D r Ta mb i we r e n o n - ex ecu tiv e me mb e rs o f th e Bo a r d , is th a t c o r r e c t? MS ME MELA : Ye s , y e s , C h a ir. Page 59 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o w th a t w a s a t a time w h e n th e te n d e r w a s s till o p e n a n d w h a t I a m in te r es te d in is w h e the r y ou c on v ey e d to th e m pr io r to th a t tr ip th a t th e y s h o u ld n o t b e me e ti n g w ith AAR b e c a u s e o f th e p r e v iou s p o in t th a t w e d eb a te d b e fo r e th e br e a k , w h ic h is th a t p e o p le in a d e c is ion ma k in g r o le in r e la tio n to te n d er s s h o u ld no t b e h a v ing me e tin g s w ith b id d e r s w h ile th e te n d e r is s till o p e n . MS M EMELA : C h a ir p e rs o n , I a m n o t th e a d v is or o f th e Bo a r d r ig h t, a n d I w ill g iv e y o u a n e x a mp le a s w h y I s a y th is it is b e c a u s e th e d e c is io n to g o to A AR w a s ac tu a lly ta ke n fr o m I th in k SAA Bo a r d a n d th e n b e ca u s e it 10 w a s a ma tte r o f te c h n ic a l it w a s mo v e d t o SA AT Bo a r d a n d th e y h a d d e c id e d fr o m th e r e th a t th e r e a s o n w h y th e y w e r e g o in g to AAR is to v ie w th e ir fa c ilitie s a n d b e fo r e th e y c a n a c tu a lly tr y a n d d is c u s s a ny th in g w ith r e g a rd to th e p a r tn e r s h ip fr a me w or k th a t w a s in p la c e a t SAAT a t th a t time . Th e r e w as a p a r tn er s h ip fr a mew o rk C h a ir th a t h a d b e e n ta lk e d a b o u t a t SAAT a s fa r b a c k a s 20 1 2 d ur in g th e Bo a r d c h an g e s a n d s tu ff lik e th a t b e c a u s e , in 2 0 1 2 th e r e w as a d iffe r e n t Bo a r d fr o m th e 2 0 1 5 o n e . J a . So th e y w e r e g o in g to d is c u ss th a t a n d I d id s a y d u r in g in my s ta te me n t a ls o d u r in g th e o u r me e tin g w ith Mis s H o fme yr a n d 20 in v e s tig a tiv e te a m th a t I w a s o n ly in fo r me d o n th e d a y w e w e r e g o in g to C h ic a go th a t w e w ill b e g o in g o n a tr ip a n d th e r e a s o n w h y th e y a c tu a lly c a me w ith me w a s to e n s ur e th a t I d o n o t a llo w ma y be AAR o r a n y o th e r p a r ty to ta lk to th e m a b o u t a n y th in g th a t h a v e to d o w ith th e te n d e r. C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : J u s t r e p e a t th a t la s t s ta te me n t. O k a y s o th e y, th e ir r e a s on in g fo r [in te r v e n e s ]. Page 60 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: MS MEMELA : Fo r in c lu d in g y o u . Fo r in c lu d in g me in th e tr ade b e c au s e I wa s no t in c lu d ed in th e tr a d e a ll th is time a n d w a s th a t b ec au s e fr o m a pr o cu r e me n t p o in t o f v ie w I w o u ld a d v is e th e m d u r in g me e tin g s w h e n th e y g o th r o u g h th e fa c ilitie s o r s ho u ld AAR ma y b e tr y an d ta lk a b o u t so me th in g th a t is r e la te d to c o mp on e n ts ins te a d o f ta lk in g a b o u t th e MO U o r may b e p a r tn e rs h ip fr a me w or k th a t th e y w e r e g o ing th e r e fo r. So , lik e th e tr ip w a s mo r e like o n th e p ar tn e r s h ip fr a mew o rk th a t h a s b e en lo n g g o ing a t SAA a n d it e v e n h a d a d o cu me n t th a t w a s p u t 10 down. I e v e n me n tio n e d a n d a c tu a lly fo r w a r d e d th e C o mmis s io ns te a m th e MO U b e tw e e n Air - Fr a nc e a n d SAAT a n d a n MO U b e tw e en IAI Is r a e l Ae r o Sp a c e a n d SAAT to p r o v e th a t th e MO U b e tw e e n AAR a n d SAAT w a s n o t th e fir s t MO U th a t w a s p u t in p la c e a nd I k n o w if ma y b e th e fo r me r C EO o r ma y b e th e fo r me r Bo a r d me mb e rs a r e c a lle d in th e y g o in g to c o n fir m th is th a t th e r e w e r e o th e r MO U ’s w ith R o lls ’ R o yc e a s w e ll a s , a lth o u g h I w a s n o t p a r t o f th a t . J a , s o C h a ir, y e s . We , ja . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n ce to b e th a t y o u d id n o t a t a n y p o in t a d v is e th e m th a t th a t tr ip w o u ld b e a g a in s t th e r u le o f th e 20 te n d e r th a t d o e s n o t a llo w b id de r s to mee t a n y o n e w h o is a d e c is io n ma k e r fr o m th e c o mp a n y w h ile th e te n d e r is s till r u n n in g . Yo u d id n o t g iv e th a t a d v ic e to th e Bo a r d me mb e r s ? MS ME MELA : I d id n o t g iv e th a t a d v ic e to th e Bo a r d me mb e r s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . D o y o u n o w r e g a r d it a s w r o n g fo r th e m to h a v e a tte n d e d ? Page 61 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: H a n g o n , Mis s Mb a n jw a ha s s o me th in g , Mis s Mb a n jwa MS MB A N J WA : C h a ir th e r e a s o n w hy I a m o b je c tin g to th is q u e s tio n is b e c a us e [in te r v e ne s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: D o n o t s ta r t s p e a k in g wh ile y o u a r e fa r fr o m th e mic , o th e r w ise . MS MB A N J WA: C H A IR PER SO N: MS MB A N J WA : In th is p r e s s u r e o f time , C h a ir, th a n k y o u . Ye s . C h a ir th e r e a s o n w hy I a m o b je c tin g to th is q u e s tio n is b e c a us e o n e o f th o s e q u es tio n s w er e C ha ir, w a s a t p a c e w a s to e x p la in , 10 to g e t c la r ific a tio n fr o m Mis s Me me la , a n d if w e c a n tu r n to th a t p a g e 0 1 0 . I a m n o t s a y in g th a t ma tte r h a s b ee n r eso lv e d Ch a ir, b u t in th e s a me b u n d le I ju s t w a n t to [ in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: We ll te ll me fir s t w h a t th e b a s is , w he th e r it is a n o b je c tio n a n d w ha t th e b a s is is b e fo r e w e go a n d lo o k in th e d o c u me n t. MS MB A N J WA: C H A IR PER SO N: MS MB A N J WA : I a m o b je c tin g [in te r v e n e s ]. J a , w h a t is th e b a s is fo r o b je c tio n ? Th e b a s is fo r o b je c tio n is b e c a u s e w h a t is n o w p u t to Mis s Me me la is w h a t Mis s Me me la h a s a lre a d y e xp la in e d th a t th e r e w a s n o th in g w ro n g , b ec a u se th e y w e re n o t p a r t o f th e e v a lu a tio n n or 20 a d ju d ic a tio n te a m. Be c a u s e th is is a s imila r s c e n ar io to th e Be z u id e n h o u t s c e na r io [in te r v e n es ]. C H A IR PER SO N: MS MB A N J WA: C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , I th in k le a v e it to h e r to d e a l w ith th e q u e s tio n . As it p le a s e s C h a ir. Th a n k y o u Mis s Mb a n jwa . A D V K ATE HO FMEYR : Th a n k y o u Miss Meme la . It w a s a fte r th a t g r o u p Page 62 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 r e tu r n e d fr o m th e U .S. th a t th a t fiv e - y e a r co mp o n en t te n d e r w a s c a n ce lle d o r r e tr ac te d , c o r re c t? MS MEME LA : I t w a s a fte r th a t C h a ir, a nd th e r e a so n s w e r e s ta te d . I r e me mb e r th e fir s t o n e , i f I r e me mb e r c o r r ec tly w a s b e c au s e Pe g a su s , is it th e c o r r e c t o n e ? Ja . Pe g a s u s h ad b id e d o k a y ex tr e me ly low w h ich w a s g o o d fo r u s b ec a us e w e wa n te d to s a v e b u t th e y w e r e g o ing to s u b c o n tr ac t to AJ Wa lte r s a n d th a t w a s n o t a llo w e d in te r ms o f th e PPFA. Yo u c a n n o t s u b- c on tr a c t a s a lo c a l co mp a ny if y o u h a ve b id e d y o u mu s t a t le a s t ta k e fu ll r e s p o n s ib ility o f 7 5 p e r c e n t o f w h a t s h o u ld b e 10 d o n e . O th e r w is e th a t w o u ld b e fr o n tin g . An d th e n th e s e c o n d o n e w a s , it w a s s ta te d th a t it w a s to g iv e th e Bo a r d e n o u g h time to a c tu a lly c o n tin u e w ith th e d is c u ss io ns r e g a rd in g th e MO U o r p a r tn e rs h ip fr a me w ork w ith AAR . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e c h a lle n g e th a t th a t p r e s e n ts fo r me Mis s Me me la a n d I w o u ld lik e to h a v e yo ur c o mme n t o n it is , th e fa c ts s e e m to in d ic a te th a t th e Bo a r d o f SAAT w h ile a te n d e r is s till o p e n g o e s to v is it th e fa c ilitie s o f o n e o f th e te n d e r e r s , a n d th e r e a fte r th a t v e ry Bo a r d ta k es a d ec is ion to r e tr ac t th e te n de r in w h ic h th e re w o u ld h a ve b e e n o th e r c o mp e tito r s a n d th e r e a s o n fo r d o in g s o is th a t th e y w a n t to 20 e mb a r k o n a p a r tn er sh ip w ith o n e o f th o s e b id d e r s . An d th e s u b je c t ma tte r o f th a t p a r tn e r s h ip w a s g o in g to b e to p r o v ide th a t e x a c t s a me s e r v ic e s th a t th e te n d e r w h ic h w a s re tr a c te d w o u ld h a ve p r o v id e d to SAAT. D o y o u n o t s e e th a t a s a c o n c e r n? MS M EMELA : Yo u s e e th a t a s a c o n c e r n ? C h a ir p e rs o n , I d o n o t . An d I w ill g iv e y o u a n e x a mp le w hy, to g e t in to a p a r tn e r s h ip r e q u ir e s an Page 63 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 a p p r ov a l o f th e sh a r eh o ld e r in te r ms o f se c tio n 5 4 o f th e PFMA. An d b e fo r e it e v e n g e ts to th a t th e r e is n o w a y th a t th e Bo a r d w ill b e ta lk in g a b o u t w h a t is w ith r e g a r d to th e c o mp o n e n t s e r v ice s w ith o u t th e a p p r o v a l o f th e s h a r e h o ld er. Bu t lik e my u n d e r s ta n d ing is th a t l ik e th e d is c us s io ns b e tw e e n th e Bo a r d in te r ms o f th e Bo a r d r es o lu tio n th a t a r e in th e file , th e y w e r e n o t d is c us s in g a ny th in g h a t h a d to d o w ith th e te n d e r b u t th e ir r e a s on in g lik e I me a n to a llo w to c a n c e l th e te n d e r a t th a t time w a s to e n s u r e th a t n o b o dy fe e ls ma y b e in fr in g e d o r fe e ls p r e ju d ic e d w h ile th e y a r e 10 d is c us s ing , a s mu c h as th e y a re n o t d is cus s in g w h a t is in th e b id . Ye s C h a ir. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e p a r tn e r sh ip wa s to p r o v id e th e e x ac t s a me s e rv ic es th a t th e te n d e r w o u ld h a v e p rov id e d to SAAT. Is th a t n o t c o r re c t? MS ME MELA : C h a ir, th e r e w e r e lo ts o f l i s t, th e r e w e r e a lis t o f w h a t c o u ld h av e b e e n p ar t o f th e p a r tn e r s h ip , a s mu c h a s it w a s p ar t o f th e lis t w ith Air Fr a n c e a n d II, E tih a d a n d a n y o th e r s u p p lie r or ma y b e a ir lin e . Bu t w h a t I a m tr y in g to p u t o n re c or d fo r Mis s H o fmey r is th a t b e fo r e th a t p a r tn er s h ip c o u ld e ve n g o o n it w ill b e a p p ro v e d b y th e 20 s h a r eh o ld er. Th e r e is a lo n g p r o c e s s th a t i s fo llo w e d th e r e . So , in te r ms o f th e n o n - b in d in g MOU , th a t is w h e n th e y re a lis e d , th e y h ad to e n te r in to a n o n - b in d ing MO U th a t w ill g u id e th e ir d is c u s s io ns , y o u k no w ? Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Bu t th e d e c is io n to r e tr a c t th e te n d e r a n d g o o n th e p a r tn e r s h ip , h a p p e n e d b e for e a n y se c tion 5 4 a p p r o va l, c o r r ec t? MS MEM ELA : R e me mb e r y o u c a nn o t g o an d a p p ly fo r se c tio n 5 4 b e fo re Page 64 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 y o u h a v e e ve r y th in g in p la c e . Th a t is w h y I s a id to th e C h a ir th e r e a r e p r o c es se s th a t y o u h a v e to fo llo w fir s t b e fo r e y o u e v en g e t to th e p a r tn e rs h ip a p p ro v a l. Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s , Mis s Me me l a my q u e s tio n w a s n o t w h a t p r o c es se s y ou h a v e to fo llo w, it w a s ju s t a q u e s tio n o f fa c t. At th e time th a t th e d e c is io n w a s ta k e n to r e tr a c t th e te n d e r a n d g o o n th e p a r tn e rs h ip mo d e l, th e re w as n o s e c tio n 54 a p p r ov a l fr o m th e sh a r eh o ld e r w a s th e r e ? MS ME MELA : 10 Ye s , th e r e w a s n o t, b e c a us e r e me mb e r th e p a r tn er s h ip mo d e l is s o me th in g th a t w a s a p p r o v ed C h a ir b y th e Bo a r d o f SAAT a s fa r b a c k as 2 0 1 2 . So , th e p a r tn e r s h ip mo d e l is s o me th in g th a t is a c tu a lly ju s t g u id in g th e m o n h o w th e y mo v e f o r w ar d w ith th e p a r tn e r s h ip fr a me w o rk . It d o e s n o t r e q u ir e th e a p p r ov a l a t th a t time . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Bu t fr o m th e ti me t h a t th e p a r tn e r s h ip mo d e l w a s b e in g p u rs u e d b y th e SAAT Bo a r d th e r e w a s n o c o mp e titiv e p r oc es s b e in g fo llo w e d w a s th e r e? MS M EMELA : Th e r e w a s n o c o mp e titiv e p r o c e ss . Th a t is w h y I a m s a y in g C h a ir it w a s s o me th in g th a t w a s do n e b y th e Bo a r d o f Ba g us , Mr Mp o n d o w ith Mr Ma b iz e la a nd s tu ff b e fo r e th e o th e r o n e th a t fo llo w e d , 20 a n d th e o n e th a t a c tu a lly w a s in th is tr ip . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u , a n d th en I w o u ld lik e to g o to a n o th er me e tin g th a t to o k p la c e w h ile th a t s e c o n d fiv e - y e a r te n d e r w as o p e n e d [in te r v e n e s ]. MS M EMELA : O k a y b e fo r e y o u g e t th e r e , Mis s H o fme y r I a m s o r r y C h a ir c a n I a d d a ls o o n th e s a me tr ip . Page 65 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: MS MEME LA : Ye s . J u s t to la y o u t th e r e to th e p u b lic so th a t th e y u n d er s ta nd th a t th e tr ip w a s n o t ju s t ta k e n b y c e r ta in p e o p le . Afte r th e Bo a r d me mb e r s c a me b a ck . I r e me mb e r s o me o f th e m w e r e ta k in g p h o to s o f th e fa c ility to c o me b a ck s o th a t w h e n th e y g iv e fe e d ba c k , th e y a c tu a lly e v e n ha v e p h o to s . An d th e n a fte r th a t th e r e w a s a tr ip th a t w a s ta k e n b y th e I T th e C h ie f, th e fo r me r C h ie f I T o ffic e r o f S AA. Be c a u s e a lso if y o u r e me mb e r o n th a t fr a me , p a r tn e r s h ip 10 fr a me w o rk th e r e w a s a ls o s y s te ms , o k a y th e y h a d u p d a te d s y s te ms , c o mp a re d to SAA th a t th e y c o u ld h e lp u s upg r a d e on . An d th e n th e r e w as te c h n ic ia ns I th in k lik e tw o g r o u p s o f te c h n ic ia n s w en t to th e ir o p e r a tio n s fa c ilitie s . So I a m ju s t tr y in g to p u t it o u t th e r e th a t it w a s n o t ju s t th e Bo a r d , lik e ju s t to p r o v e th a t it w a s s o me th in g to e n s u r e th a t w e k n o w lik e th e Bo a r d k n ew w h a t it w a s ge ttin g its e lf in to b e fo r e th e y e ve n ma y be c o n tin u e d to mo v e fo r w ar d to a p a r tn e r sh ip fr a me w or k Th a t is my u n d e rs ta n d in g Ch a ir. I d o n o t s it in th e Bo a r d a n d I a m n o t ta lk in g o n b e h a lf o f th e Bo a r d . I u n d e r s ta n d th a t th e C o mmis s io n 20 w ill g iv e th e Bo a rd th e ir o p po r tu n ity to s ta te th e ir s id e . So , w h a te v er th a t I a m p u t tin g h e r e is my v ie w. C H A IR PER SO N: Ja. Be fo r e Mis s H o fme y r mo v es a w a y fr o m th e tr ip , y o u s a id th a t y o u w e re to ld th a t y o u h a d b e e n in c lu d e d in th e tr ip o n th e d a y o f d e p a r tu r e , is th a t c o r r ec t? MS ME MELA : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 66 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: D id y o u s a y th a t y o u w e r e to ld th a t th e r e a s o n w h y y o u w e r e in c lu de d in th e tr ip w a s s o th a t y o u c o u ld a d v is e th e d e le g a tio n w ith r e g a rd to n o t ta lk in g to A AR p e o p le a b o u t th e p e n d in g te n d e r ? MS MEM ELA : To e n s u r e th a t s h o u ld AAR r a is e , b e ca u se r e me mb er AAR d o e s n o t k n ow th e r u le s o f th is C o u n tr y a t th a t time . So it w a s to e n s u r e th a t s h o u ld th e y d u r in g th e d is c u ss io n o f w ha t th e y w e r e th e r e fo r, s h o u ld th e y r a is e a n y th in g th a t I h a v e to d o w ith th e lik e c o mp o ne n t te n d e r o r a n y th in g lik e th a t, th a t I w o u ld b e a b le to s a y y o u c a n n o t d is cu ss th is . J a , b e c a u se th is is p a r t o f th e c o mp o n e n t te n d e r a n d w e w ill h a v e th e 10 te n d e r r u n n ing . Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Am I r ig h t to th in k th a t t h e r e a s o n w hy it w o u ld h a v e b e e n th o u g h t th a t y ou w er e th e r igh t p e rs o n to p la y th a t r o le wa s be c au s e o f y o u r p o s itio n a s H .O .D . o f p r o c u re me n t. MS ME MELA : Ye s , C h a ir th a t w a s th e r e a s o n . C H A IR PER SO N: MS M EMELA : Ye s – y e s . Be c a u s e I r e me mb e r th e Bo a r d d o e s n o t u n d e rs ta n d , th e y d o n o t r e a lly k n o w w h a t is b e in g , w h a t is p a r t o f th e te n d e r o r ma y b e w h a t is p u t to th e m R e me mb e r w h e n th e y ta k e a s u b mis s io n to th e Bo a r d it is ju s t a b r ie f s u mma r y o f w h a t th e y h a v e wr itte n a n d ja . 20 C H A IR PER SO N: N o w, w a s th e re a r u le th a t w a s to th e e ffe c t th a t th e me mb e r s o f th e d e le g a tio n c o u ld n o t d is c u ss th e te n d e r w ith A AR p e o p le o n th a t tr ip ? MS MEM ELA : N o t th a t th e r e w a s a r u le tha t I k n o w o f C h a ir. As I s a id th a t th e c o n c e rn w a s mor e fr o m th e s id e o f AAR . Be in g th e p r iv a te c o mp a ny fr o m U .S a n d n o t k n o w in g h o w we w o r k in So u th - Afr ic a th a t th e y Page 67 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 d o n o t r a is e s o me th in g s o r c er ta in in fo r ma tio n th a t th e y a r e n o t s u p p os e d to ta lk to th e Bo a r d w ith . C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : Ye s , b u t th a t is e x a c tly wh a t I a m ta lk in g a b o u t. Oh. C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u r, w h a t y o u - th e r e a s o n y o u s ay th a t w a s g iv e n to y o u fo r inc lu d in g y o u in th e tr ip su g g es ts to me th a t th e r e w a s a r u le th a t p r o h ib ite d p e o p le w ho mig h t h a v e b e e n in th e d e le g a tio n o r a ll o f th e m, o r s o me o f th e m, fr o m d is c u s s in g th e p e n d in g te n d e r w ith a n y b o d y fr o m AAR . 10 MS ME MELA : Th e r e w a s n o r u le C ha ir. C H A IR PER SO N: MS M EMELA : w h y I s ay s o . Ar e y o u s a y in g th e re w a s n o r u le ? Th e r e w a s n o r u le C h a ir. I w ill g iv e y o u a n e x a mp le a s to Fo r ins ta n c e , o n th e fiv e- mo n th s te n d er th a t w a s ra n a fte r w a r ds to te s t th e ma r k e t. Th e Bo a r d h a d a lr e a d y o r ma y b e th r o u g h th e SAA le g a l h a d a p p o in te d th e tr a n s ac tio n a l a d v is o r fr o m CD H to h e lp th e m w ith r e g a r d to th is n o n - b ind in g MO U a nd a ls o th e d is c us s io ns g o in g fo rw a rd . So a t p r o c ur e me n t we w er e o ff th e v ie w th a t, o k ay b e c a us e th ey a r e d is cu ss in g , r e me mb e r th e r e as o n fo r r e tr ac tin g th e p r e v io u s te n d er w as to g iv e th e 20 Bo a r d c h a nc e to d is c u s s w ith th e m, a n d – a n d – d is c u s s w ith th e m lik e is s u es o f n o n - b in d ing MO U . An d th e n n o w w e d e c ide d o ka y s in c e th a t w a s th e r ea s on , w e w e r e g o in g to e x c lu d e th e m w h e n w e r u n the fiv e y e a r te n d e r a n d th e n th e tr a n s ac tio n a l a d v is o r fro m C DH a dv is e d a g a in s t th a t b e ca u s e w e h ad a lr e a dy e x c lud e d th e m a n d th e te n d e r w a s a lr e a d y iss u e d to th o s e th a t Page 68 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 w e r e n o t d isc us s in g w ith th e Bo a r d , a n d th e y s a id no b e ca u s e th e Bo ar d is n o t d is cu ss in g a ny th in g th a t h a s to d o w ith th e c o mp o n e n t te n d er s o it w ill b e p r e ju d ic ia l to AAR to e x c lu d e th e m fr o m th e te n d e r. I a m s u r e Mis s H o fme y r w ill s e e th a t th e r e w a s a s e p ar a te te n d e r is s u ed fo r AAR to in c lu d e th e m. Bu t it w a s e a s y b ec a u se it w a s a c lo s e d b id b ec a us e w e w er e ju s t te s tin g th e ma r k e t. I t w a s n o t a n o p e n b id . C H A IR PER SO N: So y o u u n d e rs ta n d th a t w h e n I ta lk a bo u t a r u le I a m n o t n e c e ss a r ily ta lk in g a b ou t a r u le th a t is w r itte n d o w n , I a m a ls o ta lk in g 10 a b o u t ... [in te r v e n e s ]. MS ME MELA : Th e u n d e r s ta n d ing . C H A IR PER SO N: An y r u le th a t e v e r y b o dy ma y h a v e u n d e r s to o d e x is ts e v e n if it w a s a n u n w r itte n r u le . MS MEM ELA : O k a y, I c a n a g r e e w ith y ou th e r e C h a ir b e ca u se ma y b e th a t w a s a n u n d e r s ta n d ing a t th a t time a n d a ls o w h a t le a d u s to d e c id e to e x c lu de AAR fr o m th e fiv e mo n th s te n d e r a t fir s t. C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: 20 So , to g o b a c k to th is tr ip a t th e time o f th e tr ip to A AR . So , w a s th e r e a r u le w r itte n o r u n w r itte n th a t e i th e r s o me o f th e p e o p le in th e d e le g a tio n o r e v e r y b od y in th e d e le g a tio n w i th n o t h a v e b e e n a llo we d to d is c us s th e p e n d ing te n d e r w ith AAR p e o p le ? MS ME MELA : I d o n o t r e me mb e r a n y wr itte n r u le , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: MS MEM ELA : U n w r itte n ? I d o n o t r e me mb e r a n y w ritte n r u le , b u t th e in s tr u c tio n th a t I b e p a r t o f th e te n d e r c a me fr o m th e m a n d o f c o u r s e like I d id n o t Page 69 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 k n o w w h a t to d o b e c au s e I d id n o t e ve n h ave th e v is a th e U .S v is a a t th a t time a n d I a m s u r e [in te r v e n es ]. C H A IR PER SO N: W h o d id th is w h o to ld y o u th a t th is w a s th e mo tiv a tio n fo r in c lu d in g y o u? MS ME MELA : time and I th in k I w a s c a lle d b y th e c o mp a n y ’s se c re ta r y a t th a t s a id th e Bo a r d had d ec id e d th a t th e y s h o u ld in c lu de [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : 10 Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : Ye s a n d g a v e th is r e as o n a s th e r e a s on . An d g a v e th is r e a s o n b u t it w a s n o t w r itte n d o w n . C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : Th e y s h o u ld in c lu d e yo u ? Ja. Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d n o w th e r e ma y h av e b e e n n o wr itte n r u le . Yo u a s h e a d o f p r o cu r e me n t in th e c o mp a ny d id yo u u n d e rs ta n d it to b e , w o u ld y o u h av e un d e rs to o d it to b e ac c e p ta b le fo r a n y me mbe r or me mb e rs o f th e d e le g a tio n a n d y o u k n o w w h o w a s in th e d e le g a tio n , w h o w e r e in th e d e le g a tio n . Wo u ld y o u h av e r e g ar d e d it a s a c c ep ta b le if th e y d is c us s ed w ith AAR p e o p le th e p e n d in g te n d e r ? 20 MS ME MELA : Wo u ld I h a v e r e g a r d ed a s a cc e p ta b le ? N o C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : I w o u ld n o t h a v e r e g a r d ed it a s a c c e p tab le . C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : Yo u w o u ld n o t h a v e a c ce pte d a s a c c ep ta b le ? Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d why w o u ld you have Page 70 of 217 th o u g h it w o u ld be 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 u n a cc e p ta b le ? MS MEMELA : Be c a u s e th e Bo a r d is th e o n e th a t ma k e s th e fin a l d e c is ion . Th e r e fo r e , to d is c u s s th a t c u r r e nt te n d e r a t th e time in s te a d o f d is c us s ing w h a t th e y w e r e g o in g th e r e fo r w h ic h w a s th e n o n - b in d in g MO U , w ill b e s o me th in g o p p o s ite to w h a t th e y w e n t th e r e fo r. C H A IR PER SO N: N o w th e a c tu a l me e tin g ev e n if th e y d id n o t d isc us s th e p e n d in g te n d e r, w o u ld y o u n o t h a v e c o n s id e r e d th a t th e timin g o f th e me e tin g c o u ld g iv e r is e to p e rc e p tio ns th a t ma y b e AAR w a s b e in g g ive n s p e c ia l tr e a tme n t e v e n if y o u a n d th e Bo a r d d id n o t th in k s o b e c a u s e 10 th e r e w a s s till a te n d e r th a t w a s s till to b e fin a lis e d in w h ic h AAR w a s in te r e s te d . Sh o u ld th e timin g n o t h a v e b e e n a f te r th e f in a liz a tio n in te r ms o f y o u r u n d e r s ta n d ing o f a c c e p ta b le b e h a v io ur d u r in g p r oc u r e men t p r o c es se s ? MS M EMELA : My u n d e r s ta n d in g fr o m h e r e C h a ir, AAR h a d a lr e a d y b e e n d is q u a lifie d , b u t ju s t to a n s w e r y o ur q u e s tion [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: We ll y o u mu s t p o in t o u t i f I a m mis s in g s o me th in g b e c a us e I c o u ld mis s , I c o u ld b e mis s in g s o me th in g . I th o u g h t th a t a t th a t time th e te n d e r w a s s till p e n d in g . 20 MS M EMELA : J a n o it w a s p e n d in g b u t Air Fr a n c e , AAR w a s d is q u a lifie d [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: MS ME MELA : AAR w a s n o t b id d in g a t th e time ? Ye s , th e y w e r e d is qu a lifie d a t th e ti me . C H A IR PER SO N: O h o k a y, o k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Mis s Me me la I [in te r v e n es ]. Page 71 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o r r y b u t if th e y w e r e d is q u a lifie d a t th e time w h y w o u ld th e Bo a r d h a v e b e e n c o n ce r n ed th a t th e y s h o u ld n o t d is c u s s th e te n d e r w ith a b id d e r w h o ha s be e n d is q u a lifie d , b e c a us e th e b idd e r is n o t in th e r a c e ? MS MEM ELA : I th in k ma y b e it w a s fo r th e r e a s on th a t lik e fo r th e fu tu r e o r fo r I a m n o t s u r e b u t th e r e a r e n o s p e c ific d a te s h e r e , s o I a m ju s t r e a d in g h er e th a t d is q u a lifie d b id d e r it s a ys AAR . So , I a m n o t s u r e if i t w a s b y th e , d u r in g th e time o f th e tr ip , i t w a s d is q u a lifie d a lr ea d y. 10 Bu t I k n o w it w a s d is q ua lifie d o n th e , fo r n o t b id d in g o n th e fu ll s p a r e lis t. C H A IR PER SO N: Mis s H o fme y r. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : MS ME MELA : N o t y e t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : MS ME MELA : It w a s n o t d is q u a lifie d a t th e ti me o f th e tr ip . No. O k a y. A D V K ATE HO FMEYR : An d th e r e a s o n fo r th a t is th a t y o u c an g o to DD 2 2 ( c) a t p a g e 1 0 6 6 . MS ME MELA : 1066. C H A IR PER SO N: 20 Th a n k y o u . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th is is a le tte r w r itte n b y N ish a L a lo o . W h o w as th a t Mis s Me me la ? MS ME MELA : O h , y o u w a n t me to r e a d th e [in te r v e n e s ]. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o , I a m ju s t s a y in g w h o w a s N is h a L a llo o . C H A IR PER SO N: Th e le tte r th a t Ms H o fme y r is a dd r es s in g is w r itte n b y N is h a L a llo o a nd it is a d d r e s se d to ... ( in te r v e n es ) Page 72 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y I w ill r e a d th a t- h e r title . Sh e w a s Se n io r Ma n a g e r Str a te g y Pr oc u r e men t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d w h a t is th e d a te o f th e le tte r ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th e d a te o f th e l e tte r w a s 2 7 Ma y 2 0 1 5 . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a t w a s a fte r th e tr ip to th e U S , c o r r e c t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : W h e n w a s th e tr ip to th e U S? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e 2 n d to th e 9 t h o f Ma y 2 0 1 5 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O h o k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , i t w a s a fte r. 10 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a it w a s a fte r. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d a s I r e a d th is - fe e l fr e e to r e a d i t if y o u h a v e n o t d o n e fo r a w h ile . I t is a r e q u e s t to AA R th a t th e y e x te n d th e v a lid ity p e r io d o f th e ir b id w h ic h w as s till o p e n fo r a fu r th e r 6 mo n th s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm- h mm. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W h ile th e pr o ce ss o n th a t te n d e r w as s till b e in g fin a lis e d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. I s e e th a t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , i t c o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a r e a s o n fo r th e b o a r d to b e a b le to h a v e th e tr ip in e a r ly Ma y th a t A AR h a d a lr e a d y b ee n 20 d is q u a lifie d , c o rr e c t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s C h a ir, w e h a v e ju s t c o n fir me d a n d to a n s we r y o ur q u e s tio n b ec a us e y o u s a id w hy h a d th e y ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: We ll I w a s a b o u t to s a y it r e s us c ita te s my q u es tio n . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s C h a ir. Page 73 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: Ja. In te r ms o f y o u r u n d e r s ta n d in g o f a c c e p ta b le c o n d uc t a n d b e h a v iou r d u r in g pr o c ur e me n t p r o c es se s w as th e time w h e n th is tr ip w a s u nd e r tak e n th e c or r ec t time w h e n th e r e w a s th is te n d e r p e n d in g . D id th is time - d id th e fa c t th a t th e r e w as th is te n d er p e n d ing n o t ma k e it u n a c c e p ta b le fo r p e o p le p ar tic u la r ly th os e w h o w ou ld b e in v o lv ed in d e c is io n mak in g to u n d e r ta ke a tr ip to AAR ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y C h a ir, a s I s a id th a t I a m n o t a me mb e r o f th e b o a r d a n d I w ill b e s p e a k in g fr o m th e le v e l th a t I h a v e o c c u p ie d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . 10 MS N O N TSA SA MEM ELA : Ye s . An d s ittin g h e r e I d o n o t r e a lly u n d e rs ta n d th e d u tie s a n d r e s p on s ib ilitie s o f th e b o a r d . Bu t I d o k n o w th a t th e y a r e r e s po n s ib le to e n s u re o f th e c o n tin u o u s imp r ov e me n t w ith in th e c o mp a n y an d a ls o imp le me n t c er ta in p r o p o sa ls th a t w ill s e e th e c o mp a ny c h a n g e fo r th e b e tte r a n d a c t in th e b e s t in te r e s t o f th e c o mp a ny. So , I w o u ld fr o m w h e r e I a m s ittin g , tr y in g to th in k fr o m th e ir s h o es th a t th e r e a s o n w h y it w a s ... ( in te r v en e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: N o , I d o n o t w a n t y o u to tr y a n d th in k - to p u t y o u r se lf in th e ir s h o e s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. 20 C H A IR PER SO N: I w a n t . .. ( in te r v e n es ) MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I mu s t a n s w e r fro m my p e r s p ec tiv e . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Yo u w e r e th e H O D fo r p r o cu r e me n t in th e c o mp a ny. H e r e is th e b o a r d d e c id in g th a t it is g o in g to u n d e r ta k e a tr ip to o n e o f th e b id d e r s in r e g ar d to - I me a n o n e o f th e b id d e r s a n d th e re is a te n d e r th a t is s till p e n d in g in w h ic h th e y a r e b id d in g a n d y o u ar e H e a d Page 74 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 o f Pr o c u r e me n t. Wa s th a t a c c e p ta b le in te r ms o f p r o c u r e men t p r o c es s es ? MS N O N TSA SA MEM ELA : Yo u s e e n o w C h a ir, in te r ms o f p r o c u r e me n t p r o c es se s- b e c a u se th e b o a r d d o e s n o t s it in th e b id e v a lu a tio n c o mmitte e s o w e c a n no t in v o lve th e p r oc u reme n t p r o c es se s . O f c o ur s e , I c a n a n s we r y o u in te r ms o f th e d e c is io n ma k e rs . We g o b a c k to th a t q u e s tio n a lth o u g h we h a d a g r ee d th a t th e r e is n o r e tu r n r u le . C H A IR PER SO N: We ll y o u e mp h a s is e d e ar lie r o n th a t th e b o a r d is th e . .. ( in te r v en e s) MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : D e c is io n ma k er. 10 C H A IR PER SO N: Th e fin a l d e c is io n ma k e r. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: So , I a s k e d th e q u e s tio n . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm. C H A IR PER SO N: Wa s it a n a c c e p ta b le th in g fo r th e b o a r d b e in g th e d e c is ion ma k e r in th e te n d e r th a t w a s p e n d in g fo r th e b o a r d o r s o me o f its me mb e r s to u n d e r ta ke a tr ip to o n e o f th e b id d e r s in r e g ar d to th e te n d e r w h ile th a t te n d e r h a d n o t b e e n fin a lis e d ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : We c a n n o t h e lp th e p e r c e p tio n C h a ir b u t if th e b o a r d w a s go in g th e r e to d is c us s s o me th ing th a t h a s n o th in g to d o w ith 20 th e te n d e r. I d o n o t th in k it w a s u n a cc e p ta b le e xc e p t th e y s ta r te d d is c us s ing th e b id o r s o me th in g to d o w ith t h e te n d e r. C H A IR PER SO N: So a r e y o u s a y in g a s H e a d o f Pr o c u r e me n t in th e c o mp a ny a t th e time y o u wo u ld h av e fo u nd it a c c e p ta b le for th e b o ar d w h ic h wa s g o in g to ma k e a d ec is ion o n a p e n d in g te n d er in w h ic h AAR w a s in v o lve d to g o a n d h a v e me e tin g s w ith A AR o v e r s e as w h ile th a t Page 75 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 te n d e r w a s p en d in g . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir th e b o a r d h a d a tr a n s ac tio n a l a d v iso r. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th e b o a r d .. . ( in t e r v e ne s) C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : H a d a tr a n sac tio n a l a d v is o r a pp o in te d to a d v is e th e m e x a c tly o n th o s e k in d s o f d is c us s io ns a n d th e b o a r d .. . ( in te r v en e s) C H A IR PER SO N: 10 Bu t y o u w e r e th e H O D o f Pr o c u r e me n t. I e x p e c t th a t y o u w o u ld b e th e o n e o ffic ia l in th e c o mp a ny w h o h a d th e r e s p o ns ib ility to a le r t e v e n th o s e me mb e rs o f th e b o a r d w h o mig h t n o t b e a u fa it w i th s o me o f th e d o ’s a n d do n o t’s in re g a rd to p r oc u re me n t, to s a y, n o , n o , I k n ow y o u mig h t n o t k n o w b u t th is w o u ld ta in t y o u r d e c is io n a fte r w a rd s if y o u - if y o u d o th is th is w o u ld ta in t th e p r o c u r e me n t. I w o u ld e x p e c t th a t th a t w o u ld h a v e b e en p a r t o f y o u r r e s p o ns ib ility. Is th a t u n d e r s ta n d in g o n p a r t o f y o u r r o le n o t c o rr e c t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir I d o n o t a d v is e th e b o a r d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I s a id in my e a r lie r a n s we r. 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , y o u s a id s o b u t y o u th e n s a id th a t y o u w e re p h o n e b y th e c o mp a n y s e cr e ta ry w h o to ld y o u t h a t th e b o a r d w a n te d y o u to c o me a lo n g on th e tr ip b e c au s e th ey n e e ded y o u r ad v ise in r e ga r d to n o t d is c us s ing th e te n d e r w ith AAR . So , a n d y o u a g r e e d to g o . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir it is a s if ma y b e I w a s g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n ity to ad v ise th e b o ar d b e for e the y d ec id e d to go . Page 76 of 217 Th e y h ad 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 a lr e a dy ma d e th a t d e c is io n th a t th e y we r e g o in g to C h ic ag o . An d a d v is ing ma y b e th e b o a r d a b o u t h o w I fe e l t h a t ma y b e th e y s h o u ld n o t g o , I w o u ld n o t h a v e s to p p ed th e m fr o m g o in g . I a m n o t s u r e if I u n d e r s ta nd y o u r qu e s tio n b ec a us e I ju s t w a n te d to ta ke y o u th r o ug h th e r o les o f th e b o a r d in te r ms o f th e SEM . C H A IR PER SO N: N o , n o , I a m n o t lo o k in g a t th e r o le s o f th e b o a r d . I a m lo o k in g a t th e r o le o f H O D . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o , n o , I a m s a y in g C h a ir th e r o le o f a b o a r d in th e SE M a c tiv itie s . 10 C H A IR PER SO N: N o , n o , n o , I a m n o t i n te r e s te d in th a t o n e . I am in te r e s te d in w h a t y o u a s H O D w ou ld h a ve r e g a r d ed a s a c ce p ta b le a n d w h e th e r w h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e s a id to wh o ev e r in th e c o mp a ny th a t mig h t d o s o me th in g th a t mig h t ta in t th e te n d e r p r o c es s . W h e th e r th e y w o u ld lis te n to y o u r a d v ic e or n o t mig h t b e a n o th e r ma tte r b e c a u s e th ey mig h t s a y we h a ve o th e r r es p on s ib ilitie s b ec a us e o f th is a n d th a t a n d th a t. Bu t a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r p o s itio n y o u h a v e sa id th a t y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e r e g a rd e d it a s u n a c c ep ta b le fo r th e b o a r d to g o a n d h a v e th is - to g o o n th is tr ip a s lo n g a s th ey w ou ld n o t d isc u ss th e te n d e r w ith AAR . Is th a t r ig h t? 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , C h a ir a n d a ls o ju s t to a d d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I d o n o t s it in b o a r d me e tin g s . C H A IR PER SO N: Mm? MS N O N TSA SA MEME LA : I d o n o t s it i n b o a r d me e tin g s o th e r th a n th r o u g h a n in v ite . Page 77 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : So , to b e e xp e cte d to h a v e a dv is ed th e b o ar d o u ts id e th e me e tin g , th a t is th e p a r t th a t I d o n o t g e t. C H A IR PER SO N: N o , n o , I me a n it is le g it ima te fo r y o u if y o u s a y I d id n o t- w e ll ma y b e le g itima te is n o t th e r ig h t w o r d . Bu t y o u ma y s a y I d id n o t c o n s ide r it a s p a r t o f my d u ty to a d v is e th e b o a r d be c au s e may b e th e r e a r e o th e r p e op le w h os e d u ty it w a s to a d v is e th e m e v en o n th e s e is s u es , n o t me . Ma y b e so me o n e mor e sen io r th a n yo u , I d o n o t k n ow. Th a t is w h y I s a id I w a n te d to c h e c k w ith yo u w h e th e r my u n d e rs ta n d in g 10 o f y o u r r o le w as th e s a me a s yo u rs . Bu t y o u s a y th a t y o u d id n o t th in k th a t it w o u ld h a v e b e e n yo u r r o le to a d v is e th e b o a r d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I a m s a y in g C h a ir a ls o I a m n o t e v e n c lo s e to th a t le v e l to a d v is e th e b o a r d . Th a t is w h y I w a s s a y in g th e b o a r d h as g o t a c o mp a n y s e cr e ta r y w ith th a t d u ty to a d v ise th e b o a r d . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : An d th e r e is G M le g a l th a t s its in th e b o a r d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th a t is su p p os ed to a d v ise th e b o ar d a ro u n d th o s e is s ue s . 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEM ELA : An d ju s t to r a is e C h a ir, w e d id n o t- I th in k w e d id n o t o n ly v is it AAR a ls o d u r in g th a t ti me . I r e me mb e r my s e lf a n d U r s u la Fik e le p h i a ls o v is ite d Air Fr a n c e a n d w e n t a n d n e g o tia te d th e p r ic e , th e ir c u rr e n t p r ic e to SAAT. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm. Page 78 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , b u t th e b o a r d me mb e rs w a s n o t- th e b o a r d me mb e rs w e re n o t ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: We r e n o t in v o lv e d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a , w e r e n o t in v o lv e d ja . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. Ms H o fme y r. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ap o lo g ie s , th a t w a s a no th e r tr ip , c o rr e c t Ms Me me la ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th a t w a s a n o th er tr ip . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : 10 Ye s . I ju s t w a n t to p ic k u p o n e th in g in y o u r a n s we r s to th e C h a ir. Yo u s a id th is tr ip - I a m ta lk in g a b o u t th e Ma y 2 n d to 9 t h o f 2 0 1 5 tr ip th a t y o u to o k w ith th e b o a r d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I tr ie d to ta k e d o w n y o u r w or ds . H a d n o th in g to d o w ith th e te n d e r. D o y o u r e c a ll s ay in g th at? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I r e c a ll s a y in g th a t b e c a u s e d u r in g th a t me e tin g I w a s th e r e , I k n o w th a t th e y d id n o t d is c u s s a ny th in g th a t h a d to d o w ith th e te n d e r a t th a t time . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Bu t i t d id h a v e s o me th in g to d o w ith th e te n d e r in a d iffe r e n t w a y d id it n o t? 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : W h a t d iffe r e n t? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Be c a u s e it w a s a c o n se q u e nc e o f th a t tr ip th a t w h e n th e b o ar d r e tur n e d , th e y la te r de c id ed to r e tr a c t th a t v e r y te n de r so th a t th e p a r tn e r s h ip c o u ld b e p ur s ue d w ith AAR . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir I a m s a y in g a t C h ic a g o w he n th e me e tin g to o k p la c e th e r e wa s n o d isc us s io n r e g a r d ing th e te n d e r th a t w a s Page 79 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 p e n d in g . A D V K ATE HO FMEYR : So , it is n o t th a t it h a d n o th in g to d o w ith it. It w a s th a t th e r e w a s n o d is c u ss io n a b o u t th e p e n d in g te n d e r, is th a t c o r re c t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . I th e n w a n t to mo v e to a n e v e n t a little b it la te r in Ma y o f 2 0 1 5 b e c a u s e y o u w ill r e me mb e r th is tr ip is th e 2 n d to th e 9 t h o f Ma y a n d th e n o n th e 2 7 t h of Ma y y o u h a d a me e tin g w ith AAR a t SAAT. D o y o u r e c a ll th a t? 10 MS N O N TSA SA MEME LA : I h a d a me e tin g w ith AAR o r w ith th e te a m a t AAR - w ith th e te a m a t S AAT w ith A AR . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , w e h a d a me e tin g w ith th e te a m C h a ir fr o m SAAT a n d AAR . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : R ig h t. An d in y o u r r es p o ns e to Mr Hu ma n ’s e v id e nc e in w h ic h h e ma de r e fe r e nc e to w ha t Mr Ke n n y h a d to s a y a b o u t th a t me e tin g o n th e 2 7 t h o f Ma y. Yo u s a id to - in r e s p o n s e to Mr H u ma n a n d I p ic k e d th is u p in yo u r s ta te me n t in y o u r a pp lic a tio n to c r os se x a min e Mr H u ma n a t p a g e 6 p a r a g r a p h 5 .7 . I t is o n e s e n te n c e . I w ill 20 r e a d it fo r y o u fo r th e b e n e fit o f th e r e c o r d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : It is n o t tr u e th a t Mik e Ke n n y a d v ise d me th a t SAAT s h o u ld n o t b e e n g a g in g w ith a c o mp on e n t s u p p o r t b id d er. As I w a s n o t th e o n e w ho w as ca ll th e s ho ts , w h a t w o u ld b e d isc u ss e d an d wh a t n o t. D o y o u r e c a ll s a y ing th a t in y o u r s ta te me n t? Page 80 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I r e c a ll s a y ing th a t. A D V K ATE HO FMEYR : So , d o y o u ma in ta in in y o ur e v ide n ce to d a y th a t Mr Ke n n y d id n o t wa r n y o u a bo u t g o in g to th a t me e tin g w ith ... ( in te r v en e s) A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W h ic h me e tin g ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e 2 7 Ma y me e tin g th a t I w a s ta lk in g a b o u t. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Bu t h e w a s th e r e a s w e ll. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o , h e w a s n o t. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y d o w e ... ( i n te r v e n es ) 10 C H A IR PER SO N: Is th a t n o t o n e o f th o s e wh e r e h e s ay s h e w as a n d s he s a ys h e w a s n o t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o , n o , n o C h a ir th o s e a r e d iffe r e n t o n e s . C H A IR PER SO N: O r y o u s a y h e w a s a n d th en s h e s a ys h e w as n o t. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C a n y o u ... ( in te r v e n es ) A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th is is o n e w h e r e th e r e is a t le a s t e ma il c o r re s po n d e nc e th a t s u g g e s t th a t Ms Me m e la d id k n o w th a t h e w a s n o t g o in g to g o . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y c a n y o u d ire c t me to th e , ja . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s c e r ta in ly. Bu t b e fo r e w e g o to th e le t te r, I 20 ju s t w a n t to u n d er s ta n d w h e th er it r e ma in s y o u r ev id e nc e to d ay th a t h e d id n o t w a r n y o u a b ou t g o in g to th e me e tin g o n th e 2 7 t h o f Ma y ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d w hy w o u ld Mr Ke n n y a d v is e me fr o m n o t g o in g to th e me e tin g b e c a u s e w e w er e a ll g iv e n in s tr u c tio n to e n g a g e th e r e p r e s e n ta tiv e o f AAR a s s o me o f o u r - w h a t y o u c a ll th is - te c h n ic ia n s h a ve g o n e to th e A AR fa c ilitie s . So , a n d n o w th e y Page 81 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 w e r e d o in g th e s a me no w c o min g h er e . Th e y a re c o min g to SAAT to c h e ck th e MR O fa c ilitie s a s w e ll. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s s o I d o n o t u n d e r s ta nd . C H A IR PER SO N: Ms Mb a n jw a . MS L MB A N J WA: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I u n d e r s ta n d th a t th e r e is p r e s s ur e fo r time b u t I ju s t w a n t Ms H o fme y r to o b s e rv e th e o r d e r. I f th e w itn e s s is s a y in g , ca n I p le a s e b e r e fe r re d to a p ar tic u la r d oc u me n t in o r d er to c o n fir m b e c au s e th a t d o cu me n t th a t s h e wa n te d to b e r e fe r r e d to - I a m 10 n o t s a y in g s h e is co r re c t, is a d o c u men t w h ic h wo u ld a ss is t in s h ow in g w h e th e r s he is c o r r ec t th is Mr H u ma n w a s th e r e . So , th e q u e s tio n c a n n o t p r e c ed e th e d o c u me n t b e c a us e b y th e tim e s h e g o e s to th e d o c u me n t th e n a lr e a d y th e re w ill b e a p r o b le m. So , I k n o w th e r us h b u t. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s b u t I th in k it is th e k i n d o f th in g th a t w h e n y o u r ee x a min e yo u c a n go b a ck a n d s a y, d o yo u re me mb e r y ou w e re a sk e d s uc h a n d s u c h a q u e s tio n a n d y o u w a n te d to h a v e a lo o k a t a d o c u me n t a n d Ms H o fme y r as k e d a qu e s tio n b e fo re y o u c o u ld lo o k a t th e d o c u me n t. L e t u s lo o k a t th a t d o c u me n t. An d th e n y o u ta k e ca r e o f it. MS L MB A N J WA: C h a ir p er s on I a m n o t b e in g a r g u me n ta tiv e b ec a u se it is 20 to d a y. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS L MB A N J WA : I ju s t w a n t to e x p la in s o me th in g . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS L MB A N J WA : Th e reason wh y th e r e is an En g lis h word c o n te mp o ra n e o us u n fo r tu na te ly th a t is th e on ly w or d , I c a n n o t tr a ns la te it Page 82 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 in to y o u r la n g u ag e . Th e r e a s o n w hy th e r e is th a t En g lis h w o r d c o n te mp o ra n e o us is b e c au s e th e tr u s t a n d th e v a lu e o f th e e v id e n c e in e q u ity c o mes w ith co n te mp o r an e o us n es s . I a m g o in g to r e - ex a min e o n e v id e nc e th a t w a s g iv e n o n Fr ida y. Alr e a d y th a t e v id e n c e is d e ad . So , w e c a n n o t k ill th e e v id e n c e mo r e th a t e v e n w h en a w itn e s s is s ay in g , p le a s e r e fer me fir s t to a p a r tic u la r d o c u men t to a s c e r ta in th is fa c t th a t is le ft fo r c r o s s- e xa min a tio n b ec a us e Ms Hu ma n n o w is fo r c in g h e r to a d mit th a t th is g e n tle ma n a d v ise d h e r no t to g o . Sh e w a n ts to d e mo n s tr a te c o n te mp o ra n e o us ly th a t a c tu a lly th is g e n tle ma n w a s in th a t me e tin g . 10 Th a t is my p le a C h a ir p e rs o n , I w ill n o t p r e s s it fu r th e r. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . N o , n o , y o u s e e it h a s h a pp e n e d th a t I a sk h e r a q u e s tio n a n d s h e w an t to g o to a d o c u me n t b u t I k n o w th a t b e fo r e w e g o th e r e , I w o u ld lik e h e r to g iv e an a ns w er to a c er ta in q u es tio n . It d o e s n o t me a n w e w ill n o t g o th e r e . Bu t h e r a n s w e r mig h t ma k e it u n n e c e s s ar y to g o th e r e . So a s lo n g a s in th e e n d if th e r e is s till a n e e d w e g o th e r e . Bu t th e n e e d mig h t fa ll a w a y d u r in g th e e x ch a n g e y ou s e e . MS L MB A N J WA : J a a s lo n g as ... ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: So , I mig h t a s k a q u e s t io n a n d s h e u n d e r s ta n d in a c e r ta in w ay a n d w a n ts to g o to a d o c u me n t b u t I s e e th a t fo r my p u r p o s es 20 I d o n o t n e e d th e d o cu me n t. Th e n I a s k h e r b u t h a v in g a ns w er e d s h e s till fe e ls th a t fo r h e r a n s w e r to b e me a n in g fu l s h e n e e d s to g o to th e d o c u me n t, th e n s h e men tio n s th a t a g a in , I w ill s till lik e u s to g o to th a t d o c u me n t a n d th e n w e ta k e it fr o m th e r e . MS L MB A N J WA : Th a t w ill ma in ta in th e c o n te mp o r a n e ou s C ha ir p er s o n . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a lr ig h t, th a n k y o u . Ms H o fme y r. Page 83 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . Th e d o c u me n t is th a t I w a s g o in g to ta k e y o u to a fte r th e q u e s tio n Ms Me me la is in D D 2 2 C a t p a g e 1 2 6 3 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : 1263. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Mm . It is D D 2 2 C a t p a g e 1 2 6 3 . N o w th is is a n e ma il c h a in th a t w a s a tta c h e d to Mr H u ma n ’s a ffid a v it in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h Ms Sa mb o - Ms Me me la y o u r ec e ive d a R u le 3 .3 n o tic e . An d s o ju s t to fo llo w th e tr a in c h r on o lo g ic a l C h a ir I s u g ge s t w e s ta r t a t th e b o tto m o f page 1263. C H A IR PER SO N: 10 J us t b e fo r e w e p ro c ee d a r e , w e s till o n ma tte r s c o n n ec te d w ith th e tr ip ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , th is is - w e h av e r e tu r ne d fr o m th e tr ip a n d n o w th e r e is a me e tin g la te r in Ma y o n th e 2 7 t h o f Ma y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d th is e ma il co r r es p o n de n ce r e la te s to th a t me e tin g . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . N o , b e fo r e w e d o th a t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Mm. C H A IR PER SO N: Ms Me me la . 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: I w o u ld h a v e ex p ec te d th a t w h ile th e d e le g a tio n w as v is itin g AAR a n d I th in k it w a s - wa s it o ve r 4 d a ys o r 5 da ys o r mor e o r le s s ... ( in te r v e n e s) A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I th in k i t w a s 7 d a y s, th e 2 n d to th e 9 t h . C H A IR PER SO N: Ab o u t 7 d a y s , ja . Page 84 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm 7 d a y s ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I th in k s o me p e o p le mig h t h a v e b e e n th e r e fo r a b it s h o r te r Ms Me me la o r w e r e y o u ... ( in te r v e n es ) MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th e 2 n d to th e 9 t h ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : My r e c o rd s a ys th e 2 n d to th e 9 t h o f Ma y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O h I- ja I d o n o t r e me mb e r C h a ir b u t I th in k i t w a s c u t s ho r t. I t w a s n o t mo r e th a n 3 d a y s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O k a y. 10 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I f I r e me mb e r c or r e c tly. C H A IR PER SO N: O h o k a y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: We ll s o me b o d y w ill c h e ck . I a s s u me th a t a s y o u h o s t AAR w o u ld h a v e h o s te d th e d e le g a tio n in d i n n e r s a n d s o o n s o c ia lis ing a s o n e w o u ld e xp e c t w h en o n e is a h o s t. Is th a t r ig h t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir ? C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s a y in g I w o u ld e x pe c t th a t AAR b e in g y o u r h o s t w o u ld h av e h a d d in n e rs w ith th e d e leg a tio n a n d s o o n . Is my as su mp tio n c o r re c t? 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , y o u r a s s u mp tio n is c o r r ec t. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a lr ig h t. O k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d ju s t in s o fa r a s th a t is c o n c e r ne d , I a m lo o k in g b ac k a t th e Fa c e b o ok p os t th a t y o u ma d e a t th e time w h ic h w o u ld a s s is t u s w ith th e d a te s . Bu t a mo n g s t th e th in g s th a t A AR p r o v id e d to y o u w as a p r iv a te je t, is th a t c o r r e c t Page 85 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , w e fle w to - fr o m C h ic a g o to In d ia n a Po lic e a n d th e n fr o m In d ian a Po lic e to Miami. Be c a u s e it w a s s o me th in g th a t h a d to b e d o n e w ith in o n e d a y. C H A IR PER SO N: In th e ir p r iv a te je t. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a I a m n o t s u r e if it is th e ir s o w n e d b y th e m. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I a m n o t s u r e . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I c a n n o t c o n fir m th a t. 10 C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d d id th e y p a y fo r th e tr a n s p o r ta tio n b y th e limo u s in e b a ck to th e je t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Pa y me n t? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s , d id th e y c o v e r th e c o s t o f th e limo u s in e r id e b a c k to th e je t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O u r u n d e r s ta n d in g is th a t is th e ir limo u s in e . I d o n o t k n o w. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a t is th e ir limo u s i n e . 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm- h mm. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O ka y, th a n k y o u . R ig h t, s o ju s t b a ck to th e 2 7 t h o f Ma y i f w e ma y - s o r r y, n o w I h a v e lo s t my p a g e r e fe r e nc e b e c au s e I w a s g o in g b a ck . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I t is 1 ... ( in te r v en e s ) A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : 1 2 6 3 , w a s it n o t? Page 86 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: 1 2 6 3 , ja . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Gr e a t, th a n k y o u . O k a y s o we a r e a t 1 2 6 3 a nd w e s ta r t a t th e b o tto m. Th e r e is a n e ma il fr o m So n ia L o p ez to y ou r se lf Ms Me me la . D o y o u s e e th a t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d So n ia L o p e z , w h e r e w as s h e fr o m? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Fr o m AAR , it is w r itte n h e r e . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d i f y o u w ill ju s t r e a d - s or r y, th a t is th e d a te o f 10 th a t e ma il? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I t is 2 6 Ma y 2 0 1 5 . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d w h a t d o e s s h e s a y to y o u in th a t e ma il? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C a n y o u p le a s e a r r a ng e tr a n s p or ta tio n to p ic k u p Ke n H e in , Ch r is Fidd e s a n d C h e ry le J a ck so n a t 1 0 :3 0 AM o n We d n e sd a y, Ma y 2 7 t h fr o m th e In te r c o n tin e nta l H o te l. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . An d th e n y o u d e a l w ith th a t in a n e ma il a b o v e it b e tw e e n y o ur s e lf a n d Mr Ke n n y. D o y o u s e e th a t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : 20 So , w h a t d o y ou s a y to Mr Ke n ny in th e n e x t e ma il? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : H i g u y s , p le a s e ta k e n o te . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a nk yo u . An d if y o u g o a p a g e ea r lie r be c a us e n o w, w e a r e fo llo w in g it c h r on o lo g ica lly. So , if y o u g o to 1 2 6 2 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : An d th e n Mr Ke n n y r e sp o n ds ; W ill d o . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W ill d o . An d th a t is o n th e 2 7 t h o f Ma y 2 0 1 5 , Page 87 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 c o r re c t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d th e n w ill y o u r e a d u s th e n e x t e ma il fr o m y o u to h im o n th e 2 7 t h o f Ma y 2 0 1 5 ? C H A IR PER SO N: At w h a t p a g e ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : 1 2 6 2 C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th a n k s Mr Ke n n y. W ill y o u p le a s e le t me k n o w wh e n y ou r g uy g o e s to fe tc h th e m s o I c a n le a v e Pr e mie r H o te l to 10 th e r e . Fu r th e r ta k e n o te th a t w e w ill b e u s in g th e O p e r a tio n a l Pu r c ha s in g b o a r dr o o m. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . Th e n if y o u g o b a c k a fu r th e r p a g e 1261. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W h a t d o e s Mr Ke n n y r e s po n d to y o u ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : H i N o n ts a s a , n o t s u r e w h e n th e g uy w ill le a v e SAAT b u t w ill b e a t th e h o te l a t 1 0 :3 0 . I w ill n o t ma k e it to th e me e tin g . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : 20 An d w h a t d o y ou r e s p o nd to Mr Ke n n y a b o ve th a t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I s a y, w h y ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W h y ? I th in k w it h s a d fa c e e mo tic o n , is th a t r ig h t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Is it a s a d v er s io n o f a s mile y fa c e? I d o n o t k n ow. Page 88 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o , I d o n o t k n o w. Ma y b e it is a s mile y fa c e . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Yo u te ll me . C H A IR PER SO N: I c a n n e v e r ma k e o u t th e se fa c e s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I c a n n o t, in d e e d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a , I a m s u re yo u h a v e n o tic e d Ms H o fme yr I s mile a lo t s o it c a n n o t b e ... ( in te r v e n es ) A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : It c o u ld - n o , it mig h t h a v e be e n a- if it w a s a s mile y fa c e th e n y o u w er e h a p py th a t h e w a s n o t c o min g . C H A IR PER SO N: I d o n o t th in k y o u w o u ld as k w hy ... ( in te r v e n e s ) 10 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O h my G o d . C H A IR PER SO N: If y o u w e r e h a p p y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s in d e e d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ev e n th o u g h it ’s c h a n g in g a n d g e ttin g b a c k to me th a t I w a s h a p p y th a t Mr Ke n n y w a s n o t g o in g . C H A IR PER SO N: N o , th a t is fin e . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I r e a lly d o n o t u n d e r s ta nd th a t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o , I h a d jus t a ssu me d it w a s s a d b e c au s e y o u w e r e d is a pp o in te d th a t h e w a s n o t c o min g . Bu t th a t mig h t h a v e b e e n a n u n fa ir n e ss a ss u mp tio n to h a v e ma d e . 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : We a re s till o n th e fa c t fin d in g mis s io n r ig h t Ms H o fme y r ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s , b e ca u s e it is r e la te d to h is r e sp o n se a t 1260. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W h a t d id Mr Ke n n y r e s p o nd to y o u . Page 89 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : U n d e r s ta n d th a t- o k a y w h er e is th is ? Afte r w h y ... ( in te r v e n es ) A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : It is a t th e b o t to m o f 1 2 6 0 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , y o u h a v e a s ked , W h y ? An d th e n Mr Ke n n y r e s p on d s as to w h y h e w ill n o t b e a tte n d in g th e me e tin g . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. H e s a id , I h a v e a me e tin g w ith a c u s to me r r e ga r d in g w or k in U g a n d a ta k in g p la c e in p la n a n d c o n c e rn e d a b o u t d is c us s in g c o mpo n e n ts s u pp o r t is s ue s w ith s o me o n e w h o is th e 10 b id d e r in th e p r o c es s a n d th e p r oc e ss is s till o n g o in g c o r p o r a te g o v e rn a nc e iss u e s . H ow e ve r, I w ill n o t b e a v a ila b le fo r th is me e tin g . An y w a y, y ou p r io r a rr a n ge me n t w h ic h h av e b e e n c o n fir me d . So , C h a ir h e r e in th is e ma il h e is r a is in g h is c o nc e r ns . Th e r e is n o w h er e , w h e r e h e a d v is es me n o t to g o to a me e tin g . Ma y b e Ms H o fme y r is s till g o in g to s h o w me th a t e ma il. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: Wa it fo r h e r to a s k y o u q ue s tio n s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : 20 L e t u s g o to yo u r r e s po n s e b e ca u se a s I re a d w h a t Mr Ke n n y is s ay in g th e re , h e is sa y in g, h e is c o nc e r ne d a b ou t g o in g b e c a us e y o u wo u ld b e d isc u ss in g c o mpo n e n ts s u pp o r t is s ue s w ith s o me b o dy w h o is a b id d e r in th e p r o c e s s a nd th e p r o c e s s is s till o n g o in g . W h a t w a s y ou r r es p o ns e to Mr Ke n n y a b o v e th a t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : H e is s a y in g ; An d a r e c o nc e r ne d a b o u t d is c us s ing c o mp o ne n t s u p p or t is s u es w ith s o me o n e w h o is th e b id d er. Page 90 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : H e is n o t s a y in g b e c a us e yo u w ill- ja s o I w o u ld lik e u s C h a ir to r e a d th e e ma il a s it is a n d n o t p u t w o r d s th a t a r e n o t th e r e . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o , I w a s ju s t tr y ing to g iv e th e c o n tex t fo r y o ur r e s p on s e . W h a t w a s y ou r r es p o ns e Ms Me me la . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : An d th e n I s a id ; Th e p r o c es s h as b e e n p u t o n h o ld . I a m s u r e it is w h e n th e n it w a s r e tr a c te d . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o , it is n o t y e t. 10 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Be c a us e a c tu a lly on th e v e r y s a me d a y th a t w as w h e n w e lo o k e d a t th e le tte r p r e v io u s ly wh e r e AAR h a d b e e n a s k e d to e x te n d th e v a lid ity p e r io d o f its b id . So , it w a s v er y mu ch s till a liv e . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Bu t y o u s a id to Mr Ke n n y th e p r o c e ss h a s b e e n p u t o n h o ld a n d th e n w h a t d id Mr Ke n n y r e sp o n d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I u n d e r s ta n d th at it is o n h o ld b u t th a t me a n s it is s till o p e n a n d o n g o in g . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , Ms Me me la d o y o u s ta n d b y y o u r ev id e nc e th a t Mr Ke n n y d id n o t a d v is e yo u to a tte n d a me e tin g w ith a b id d e r w h ile a te n d e r w a s s till o p e n ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th is is n o t wha t h is e ma il is s a y ing C h a ir. Th a t is n o t my u n d e r s ta n d in g o f h is e ma il. H e w a s co n ce r n e d fo r h ims e lf Page 91 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 b e c a us e h e is s ay in g h e w a s a tte n d ing a me e tin g w ith a c u s to mer fr o m U g a n d a a n d h e is r a is ing h is c o n ce r n w ith me , h is c o lle a g u e s , w h y h ew h a t th e d is c u ss io n s th a t a r e ta k in g p la c e with th e b id d e r w h ils t th e b id is s till o n g o in g . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Bu t y o u d id n o t h a v e a n y d iffic u lty g o in g to th e me e tin g w h ile th e b id w a s s till o p e n ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o , I d id n o t h a v e a n y d iffic u lty b e c a u s e it w a s th e te c h n ic ia ns fr o m AAR a s mu c h a s w e h a d th e te c h n ic ia n s fr o m SAAT g o in g to AAR . 10 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : D id it n o t g ive y o u p au s e for c on c er n th a t s o me b o dy w h o w as n o t e v e n in th e p r o c u r eme n t s p a c e w a s n o t w illin g to g o to a me e tin g w ith a b id d e r w h ile th e b id d e r w a s- w h ile th e b id w a s s till open? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir, I a m n o t s u r e h o w I a m s u pp o se d to a n s we r th is q u e s tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u s a y, y e s , I d id h a v e c o n ce r n o r n o I d id n o t h a v e c o n ce r n . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I d id n o t h a v e c o n ce r ns C h a ir b ec a us e th e y w e r e d isc us s in g wh a t w a s in th e MR O h a n g er s . 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Th a n k y o u . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . An d t h e n I w o u ld lik e to g o to o n e o th e r in te r a c tio n in th is p er io d b e fo r e th e bid w a s r e tr ac te d . An d th a t is s o me th in g th a t Ms J a c ks o n sa id in a n e ma il o n th e 5 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : W h e r e is th a t? Page 92 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I w o u ld lik e to ta k e y o u to th a t. I t is a t Ex h ib it D D 2 2C th e file th a t w e a r e in a t p a g e 1 27 8 . Ap o lo g ie s , I h a v e to d o s o me th in g b e fo r e th a t in th e c h r o n o lo gy. So , th e r e is th is me e tin g o n th e 2 7 t h o f M a y th a t y o u a tte n d e d , is th a t c o r re c t? Th a t is th e o n e th a t w e h a v e lo o k ed a t p r e v io u s ly. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O h , th e o n e tha t Mik e Ke n n y h a d a c o nc e rn o f? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . 10 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e n I ju s t w a n t to e s ta b lis h b e c au s e th e r e is a n e ma il th a t s u g g e s t to me y o u h a d a d is c u ssio n a fte r th a t me e t in g w ith Ms J a ck s on . So , c o u ld w e g o to th a t? Th a t is a t p a g e 1 2 7 4 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : 1 2 7 4 . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . W h a t is th a t d o c u me n t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O h , th is is a n ema il c o min g fr o m me C h a ir o n th e 3 0 t h o f Ma y 2 0 1 5 . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d to w h o m is it s e n t? MS N O N TSA SA MEM ELA : It s e n t to C h e r y le J a c ks o n , Bo n g a n i Mo r e a n d R Ba g u s o f Mo r n in g Tid e . 20 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Is th a t a Mr R a fiq u e Bu g u s ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W h o m w e h a v e h e ard e v id e n ce a b o u t. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th an k y o u . N ow wh a t ma k e s me th in g th er e wa s a d is c u ss io n a fte r th e 2 7 Ma y me e tin g is b e c a us e in th e th ir d lin e th e r e Page 93 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 y o u w ill s e e y ou s a y ; G o o d a fte r n o o n , I h o p e my e ma il fin d s yo u w e ll. I r e fe r to th e d is c u s s ion w e h a d o n th e 2 9 t h Ma y 2 0 1 5 a n d w is h to c on fir m th e fo llo w in g . D o y o u s ee th a t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm- h mm. Ye s , I s e e th a t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : D o y o u r ec a ll th a t d is c us s ion , w a s it te le p h o n ic , w a s it in p e r s o n ? MS N O N TSA SA MEM ELA : I r e c a ll C h a ir, it w a s in p e r s o n . A me e t in g in p e r s on . 10 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : R ig h t. So , th e r e is th e me e tin g o n th e 2 7 t h th e n th e r e is a me e tin g o n th e 2 9 t h w e r e y o u a t t h is s ta g e r e s po n s ib le fo r mo s t o f th e in te r a c tio n s w ith AAR ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir, c a n I ask - I k n ow th a t w e a re a c tu a lly r u n n in g o u t o f time . I w o u ld lik e to r e a d th is . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Su r e . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I f I . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s ja . O k a y y o u w a n t to ja . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . I d o n o t k n o w if y o u wa n t me ... ( in te r v en e s) 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u w a n t to r e a d it to y o u rs e lf o r ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a , I ju s t w a n t t o r e a d it q u ic k ly s o th a t I a m a b le ... ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Ab le to r e me mb e r. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : To r e s p o n d p r ope r ly. Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. Page 94 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I d o n o t k n o w if y o u a ls o w a n t me to r e a d fo r e v e ry b o dy n o ... ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: N o , y o u c a n r e ad fo r y o u rse lf. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Fo r my s e lf. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Ar e y o u r e a dy to a n s w er o r d o y o u w an t th e q u e s tio n to 10 b e r e p e a te d ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I ju s t a s ke d a t th is s ta g e we r e yo u th e p e rs o n ma in ly r e s po n s ib le fo r th e in te r a c tio ns w ith AAR ? MS N O N TSA SA MEME LA : C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w if y o u h a v e n o tic e d th a t th e e ma il is o n a b o u t Su p p lie r D e v e lo p me n t BEE in itia tiv e s a n d s tu ff. C H A IR PER SO N: We ll I h a v e n o t r e a d .. . ( in te r v e n es ) MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: It c a r e fu lly. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. C H A IR PER SO N: J a b u t .. . ( in te r v e n e s) 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : So , th is is a q u e s tio n ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: Th e q u e s tio n is fa c tu a l. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . C H A IR PER SO N: J a , it d o e s n o t n e e d y o u to lo o k a t th e e ma il. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o , I a m ju s t ta lk in g a b o u t in te r a c tio n w ith AAR . Page 95 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Be c a u s e s h e is ta lk in g AAR . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y ja . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : An d th e r e w e re a p p a r e n tly BEE c o mp a n ie s th a t th e y h a d s e le c te d o n th e ir o w n th e r e . C H A IR PER SO N: J a o k a y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . J a , s o th is w a s in - w ith r e g a rd to th a t me e tin g th a t to o k p la c e a n d I w a s a d v is ing th e m o n th e s ta n d o f SA AT. Ja. 10 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So r r y. C H A IR PER SO N: N o , s h e is a sk in g w h e the r a t th a t s ta g e a n d we a r e ta lk in g e n d o f Ma y 2 0 1 5 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u w e r e th e p e r s o n mo s tly r e s p on s ib le a t SA AT fo r in te r a c tio n s w ith AAR . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th e r e is a b o ar d r es o lu tio n C ha ir th a t g iv es Mr Mu s a Zw a n e th a t a u th o r ity, n o t me . C H A IR PER SO N: N o , n o , n o , le t u s n o t ta lk a b o u t th e a u th o r ity. Fa c tu a lly, is it w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g ? We r e y o u th e p e r s o n - h e ma y h a v e 20 b e e n g iv e n a u th or ity b u t h e mig h t h a v e d e c id e d h e w ill a s k y o u to d o mo s t o f th e in te r a c tio n s a n d r e p or t to h im? So , th e q u e s tio n is , lo o k ing a t th e fa c tu a l p o s itio n a s to - a s o p po s ed to w h a t w a s th e le g a l p o s itio n , d id y o u h a v e a u th or ity o r n o t h a v e a u th or ity. Bu t t h e q u e s tio n is s imp ly w h e th er y o u w e re th e p e r s on th a t w a s mo s tly in te r a ctin g w ith AAR a t th a t time ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o C h a ir. Page 96 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u mig h t n o t k n o w. Yo u mig h t k n o w. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u w e r e n o t. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a th is me e tin g w a s n o t w ith - a b o u t AAR o r w ith AAR . It w a s r e g a rd in g Su p p lie r D ev e lop me n t a n d BEE . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Bu t i t w a s a me e tin g th a t AAR a tte n d e d , c o r r e c t, o n th e 2 9 t h o f Ma y ? MS N O N TSA SA MEM ELA : O n e o f th e e mp lo y e es o f A AR a t te n d e d to g e th e r w ith a lo c a l b la c k o wn e d r e pr es e n ta tiv e . 10 A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : R ig h t. An d th a t w a s Ms J ac ks o n w h o a tte n d ed , is th a t c o r r e c t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , th a t w a s th e e mp lo y e e o f AAR . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . An d t h e n I w o u ld lik e to g o to th e e ma il th a t I w e n t to in c o r r ec tly in th e c h r o n olo g y. Th a t is a t 1 2 7 8 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir, b e fo r e w e g o to th a t e ma il. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C a n I r e a d th e n w h a t a t th e e n d , n o t th e w h o le me e tin g - n o t th e w h o le e ma il. C H A IR PER SO N: J a o n p a g e 1 2 7 4 . 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : 1 2 7 4 C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s r e a d . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Kin d ly ta k e n o te th a t a s d is c u ss e d y e s te rd a y SAAT h a d a lr e a d y id en tifie d s o me o f th e lo c a l b la c k o w ne d c o mp a n ies . Mo s tly o f w h ic h is o w ne d b y b la c k w o me n to p a r tic ipa te o n th e p r o g r a m En te r p r is e Su p p lie r D e v e lo pme n t a n d b e n e fit o u t o f th e Page 97 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 p o te n tia l tr a n s a c tio n . As a d v is e d ye s te rd a y a n d a s in itia lly a g r ee d b e tw e e n ma n a ge me n t o f AAR a n d SAAT it w ill b e n e fit b o th th e p a r tie s if SAAT a n d AAR w o r k to g e th e r in c on c lu d ing in a n y k in d o f a gr e e me n t th a t w ill r e g u la te th e e mp o w e r me n t p r og r a m. So , it s h o w s w h a t w as d is c us se d th e r e a nd w h a t I h a d a d v is e d th e m fr o m S AAT p o in t o f v ie w in te r ms o f Su p p lie r D e ve lo p me n t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . An d th e n if w e c a n g o to 1 2 7 8 . N o w th is is - if y o u p ick it u p a t th e b o tto m o f th e p a g e it a p p e ar s to be a n e ma il th a t Ms J a ck s on w r ite s to a n u mb er o f h e r co lle a g u es in c lu d in g 10 J o h n H o lmes , R a h u l Sh a h e tc e te r a . D o y o u s e e th a t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I s e e th a t. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d w e - I a m n o t g o in g to r e a d th e w h o le e ma il in to th e r e c o r d b u t it s ta r ts o ff b y s a y in g ; H i a ll, la s t w e e k C h r is Fid d es , Ke n H e in an d I me t w ith th e SAAT te a m a n d me mb e r s h ip . Be lo w is a s c o p e o f w o r k a n d lis t o f in i tia tiv e s th a t SAAT w o u ld lik e to w o r k o n w ith AAR - w o r k w ith AAR o n o r e x p lo r e fu r th e r a s p a r t o f a p a r tn e r s h ip . An d th e n th e e ma il g o e s o n o v e r tw o pa g e s b u t th e p a r t th a t I a m in te r e s te d in is a t p a g e 1 2 8 0 . 20 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : If y o u g o to p a g e 1 2 8 0 . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : 1 2 8 0 . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : in d ic a te d . Ye s . Se e - I d o a p o lo g is e , I s h o u ld h a v e Th is w a s a n e ma il w r itte n o n th e 4 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 C h a ir. Ap o lo g ie s fo r th a t. Bu t a t th e - a t 1 2 8 0 Ms J a c ks o n is s e ttin g o u t a Page 98 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 time lin e th e r e a n d th e fir s t ite m o n th e tim e lin e s h e in d ic a te s as Ju n e 5 : SAAT PBH R FP c a n c e lla tio n b e co me s o ffic ia l. D o y o u s e e th a t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a I s e e th a t . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : H o w w o u ld Ms J a c k s o n h av e k n ow n o n th e 4 t h o f J u n e 2 01 5 th a t th e r e wa s g o ing to b e a r e tr a c tio n o f th e te n d e r th a t wa s s till o p e n a t th a t s ta g e ? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I c a n n o t a n s w er fo r h e r C h a ir. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , y o u w e r e n o t pa r ty to a ny me e tin g s a t w h ic h th a t w a s c o mmu n ic a te d to Ms J a ck so n b y SAAT o ffic ia ls ? 10 MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a n o , I w o u ld n o t- I d o n o t r e me mb e r. A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Mm. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Be c a u s e it w a s o n ly a c tu a lly e v e r r e tr ac te d o n th e 2 2 n d o f J u n e . D o y o u r e c a ll th a t? MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : An d th e n w h e n w a s th is o n e ? A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th is w as - s h e w a s w r itin g it o n th e 4 t h o f Ju n e a n d s h e is a n tic ip a tin g th a t it is g o in g to b e c a n c e lle d th e n e x t d a y o r a t le a s t o ffic ia lly c a n c e lle d th e n e x t d a y. MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir I . .. ( in te r ve n e s ) 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u ... ( in te r v e n e s) MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I w o u ld n o t k n o w h o w s h e k n ew th a t. C H A IR PER SO N: H o w s h e g o t th e in fo r ma tio n . MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Wo u ld it c o n c e r n y o u th a t s h e h a d th a t in fo r ma tio n b e fo r e th e d e c is io n h ad o ffic ia lly b e e n ta k e n ? Page 99 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS N O N TSA SA MEM ELA : Ye s C h a ir, th a t w ill b e a c o n c e r n . Th a n k y o u C h a ir, I s e e w e h a ve g o n e ju s t o v er th e lu n ch b r e a k . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , i t ma y b e c o n v en ie n t time to a d jo u r n . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . L e t u s a d jo u r n fo r lu n c h a n d w e w ill r e su me a t 1 4 :0 5 . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : C h a ir I s e e ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: O h Ms Mb a n jw a . MS L MB A N J WA : C h a ir ma y be th is is a n o p p o r tu n e time to ju s t p la c e o n 10 r e c or d th a t w e w e r e to ld y e s te rd a y th a t Ms H o fme y r h as o n ly 3 0 min u te s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS L MB A N J WA: Afte r w h ic h s h e w ill fin i s h . I a m n o t s a y in g s h e mu s t fin is h . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS L MB A N J WA : Bu t I a m ju s t s a y in g th is is h o w d iffic u lt o u r r e - e x a min a tio n is g o ing to b e . Be c a u s e y es te r d a y I h a d a lre a d y as ke d fo r a n e s tima tio n o f th e d a y a n d w e a r e n o w a g a in me e tin g a ll th is in fo r ma tio n th a t is in e ma ils a n d w h ic h ma y b e n e c es s ar y. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm. 20 MS L MB A N J WA: So , w h e n w e a s k fo r mo r e time , I ju s t w a n t C h a ir p e r so n to ma k e a c o mp ar is o n to se e h ow d iffic u lt it is to w r a p th e se th in g s u p . I d o n o t w a n t to ir r ita te C h a ir p e r s o n ... ( in te r ve n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: in te r r u p tio n s We ll b u t d o r e me mb e r th a t p a r t o f th e d e la y is th e th a t h av e ha p p e ne d a n d I a m n o t s a y in g th a t th e in te r r u p tio n s we r e n o t le g itima te . I a m ju s t s a y in g as r e a lity w e h av e h a d Page 100 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 in te r r u p tio n s . C e r ta in ly, it h as b e e n mo r e th a n w e n o r ma lly s e e in th e s e p r o c ee d in gs . So , a s I s a y I a m no t s a y ing ille g itima te b u t c e r ta in ly th a t h a s c o n tr ibu te d . L e t u s s e e h o w it g o e s . MS L MB A N J WA : Th a n k y o u Ch a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Is th a t a lr ig h t? MS L MB A N J WA : Th a n k y o u . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y w e w ill ta k e th e lu n c h a d jo u r n me n t a n d r e s u me a t 1 4 :0 5 . A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A IR PER SO N: We a d jo u r n . R EG ISTR A R : All r is e . IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir a n d M s M e m e l a b e fo r e lu n c h w e h a d c o n c l u d e d o n t h e a s p e c t s i n r e l a ti o n to t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r t h a t I w a n te d t o t a k e y o u t o a n d s o I w o u l d l ik e t o n o w m o v e in t h e c h r o n o lo g y t o t h e f i n a l t e n d e r w h ic h ta k e s u s t o 2 0 1 6 . M s M e m e l a w e h a v e a lr e a d y lo o k e d a t in th e e v i d e n c e t h e s u b m is s i o n th a t w e n t to th e 20 B A C fr o m t h e C F S T fo r t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n o n t h e fi n a l t e n d e r. A n d y o u w il l r e c a l l t h a t a l t h o u g h L u f t h a n s a w a s t h e c h e a p e s t b i d d e r f o r t h e fi n a l t e n d e r C F S T r e c o m m e n d e d n o t t o g o w i t h L u f t h a n s a , d o y o u r e c a l l that? MS MEMELA: In i ti a l ly C h a ir t h e C F S T r e c o m m e n d e d t o g o w i th Lufthansa, yes. Page 101 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n b y th e t i m e t h e y m a k e t h e f in a l s u b m is s io n t o th e B A C a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t t h e y w e r e t h e n r e c o m m e n d in g A ir Fr a n c e , is th a t r i g h t? MS MEMELA: S A AT. O k a y C h a ir l e t m e e x p la i n h o w t h e p r o c e s s w o r k s a t S A AT b e i n g t h e te c h n ic a l p a r t o f S A A . R e m e m b e r I e x p l a in e d t h a t f o r B A C t h e y g o f o r B A C – t o B A C f o r n o t i fic a ti o n . S o m e t i m e s th e y c o u l d g o e v e n a f t e r w a r d s b e c a u s e i t is j u s t f o r n o ti fi c a t io n o f a p p r o v a l . S o i t w e n t to t h e B o a r d a n d t h e B o a r d – b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s – t h e y q u e s t io n e d w h y d i d i t g o t o B A C a n d t h e n a p p a r e n tl y t h e r e w a s n o - o n e 10 w h o u n d e r s to o d th a t p a r t w h e r e i t s a i d t o t h e B A C j u s t g o e s f o r n o t i fic a ti o n a n d th e n th e B o a r d s a i d , o k a y t a k e i t b a c k t o th e C F S T. Ye s a n d t h e n i t m u s t g o b a c k t o B A C . B u t l ik e I t h i n k t h e y r a is e d a ls o concerns about l ik e why – why would CFST recommend and m a n a g e m e n t o f S A AT r e c o m m e n d L u f t h a n s a b a s e d o n t h e l o w e r p r ic e . A n d t h e fa c t t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t c o m m i t ti n g t o s u p p l y d e v e l o p m e n t . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a I – I a m n o w t a lk i n g a b o u t M a y 2016. MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n o n t h e 4 M a y t h e r e i s a s u b m i s s io n t o th e 20 B A C a n d t h e n th a t is f o l lo w e d b y th e a c t in g C E O ’s s u b m i s s i o n t o th e b o a r d fo r t h e ir m e e ti n g o n th e 9 M a y. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s y o u h a v e p o i n t e d o u t p r e v i o u s l y i n y o u r e v i d e n c e a l th o u g h C F S T o r i g in a l ly i d e n ti f i e d L u f th a n s a a s t h e p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r a n d t h e o n e w h o s h o u ld b e a w a r d e d t h e c o n tr a c t th e r e w a s Page 102 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 c e r t a i n r e s e r v a t io n s th a t t h e y e x p r e s s e d a b o u t L u ft h a n s a , d o y o u r e c a l l that? M S M E M E L A : I r e c a l l t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t I w a n t t o k n o w is y o u a t te n d e d a C F S T m e e t in g i n th e l e a d - u p to t h a t in A p r i l, c o r r e c t ? MS M EM ELA: I attended the CFST in the? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A m e e ti n g – i t w a s in A p r il ? M S M E M E L A : A p r il . C a n w e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 T h a t is t h e o n e w h e r e i t r e c o r d s t h a t y o u r jo in e d t h e m e e t in g a n d y o u s tr e s s t h e u r g e n c y o f t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t n e e d e d t o b e ta k e n a n d y o u w e r e t h e r e t o p r o v i d e g u i d a n c e . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? MS M EM ELA: Okay so ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y s o a l l t h a t I a m w a n ti n g t o g l e a n fr o m y o u is t h e r e a s o n s f o r n o t g o i n g w i t h L u f t h a n s a . W e s e e t h o s e fr o m t h e B A C ’s s u b m is s i o n a n d w e s e e t h e m l a t e r i n t h e C E O ’s s u b m is s io n . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d t h e o n e t h a t I j u s t w a n t t o p i c k u p o n is t h e r e w a s a c o n c e r n r a i s e d th a t L u f th a n s a s ti ll h a d o u ts t a n d in g N I P o b li g a ti o n s . D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t a s b e i n g a r e a s o n fo r n o t g o i n g w i th Lufthansa? M S M E M E L A : Fr o m t h e B o a r d ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t h is is f r o m n o w C F S T is d o in g th e i r s u b m is s io n t o t h e B A C a n d t h a t is t a k e n a s t h e s u b m is s i o n b y t h e C E O Page 103 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 to the Board. A n d i n b o t h o f th o s e s u b m is s i o n s w h i c h a r e v i r t u a l ly id e n t ic a l t h e p o in t is m a d e t h a t a m o n g s t t h e p r o b le m s w i t h L u f t h a n s a is t h a t t h e b i d d e r s t il l h a s o u ts ta n d i n g u n r e s o l v e d N I P o b l ig a ti o n s . Do y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? M S M E M E L A : O k a y c a n y o u d ir e c t m e to t h e d o c u m e n t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s c e r t a in ly M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a t D D 2 2 F. M S M E M E L A : D D 2 2 F. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D D 2 2 F a n d i t w il l b e a t p a g e 2 2 9 4 . MS M EM ELA: Page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 2 9 4 . MS M EM ELA: 2294. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t to o r ie n ta t e y o u M s M e m e l a t h i s is a p a g e w i t h i n th e s u b m is s io n th a t w a s p r e p a r e d b y L e o n R o b e r ts e f o r t h e B A C . MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. A n d t h e p a g e I a m i n te r e s t e d i n is t h e o n e a t 2 2 9 4 . B e c a u s e y o u w il l s e e th a t p a g e th e y h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e s c o r i n g a n d th e y h a v e s e t o u t i n t h e s u b m is s io n a n d n o w w e g e t t o 20 page 2294. MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t s a y s t h e f o ll o w i n g a t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e . “ B a s e d o n t h e a b o v e s c o r i n g t a b le s L u ft h a n s a h a s quoted the lowest p r ic e but due to the r is k h i g h l ig h te d b e lo w th e C F S T r e c o m m e n d t h e b i d b e Page 104 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 awarded to A ir Fr a n c e I n d u s tr i e s subject to s u c c e s s fu l c o n t r a c t n e g o ti a ti o n s . ” A n d t h e n t h e r e is a n o t h e r li n e : “ R i s k s i d e n t i fi e d w i t h t h e t e n d e r w o u l d b e d e f in e d a s f o ll o w s : ” A n d t h e r e is a h e a d in g f o r t h e r i s k s i d e n ti fi e d fo r J M / A A R a n d t h e n t h e r e is a h e a d in g L u f t h a n s a . O k a y a n d it is t h e s e c o n d b u l l e t t h a t I a m h i g h l ig h ti n g t h e r e . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ T h e is s u e r a is e d a s a r i s k w it h L u f th a n s a w a s t h a t t h e b i d d e r s ti ll h a d o u ts t a n d in g u n r e s o lv e d N I P o b li g a ti o n s f r o m a p r e v io u s t e n d e r. ” M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e th a t ? M S M E M E L A : I s e e t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . W e r e y o u – w a s t h is s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s d is c u s s e d a t th a t m e e t i n g t h a t y o u a t t e n d e d i n A p r i l w it h t h e C F S T ? M S M E M E L A : O n th e N I P o b li g a ti o n s ? 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : T h e N I P o b li g a t io n I w o u l d b e li e v e t h a t C h a ir it w a s th e k n o w l e d g e o f e v e r y b o d y a t S u p p ly C h a in b e c a u s e h e s u p p li e r – w h a t L u f t h a n s a w a s th e – t h e p r e v i o u s s u p p li e r c o m p o n e n ts s u p p li e r o f S A AT. A n d th e y h a v e n e v e r a d h e r e d t o N I P o b li g a t i o n . As I had e x p l a i n e d t h a t i t is a c tu a l ly m a n a g e d b y t h e D T I a n d t h e n a ls o I t h in k – Page 105 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 b e c a u s e t h e fi n a l t e n d e r w a s th e o n e th a t i n c l u d e d t h e s u p p li e r development. So… CHAIRPERSON: B u t c a n y o u r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r i t w a s d is c u s s e d a t t h e m e e ti n g ? M S M E M E L A : I w o u ld n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t r e m e m b e r ? M S M E M E L A : I w o u ld n o t r e m e m b e r y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y in g e v e r y b o d y w a s a w a r e o f i t ? M S M E M E L A : E v e r y b o d y w a s a w a r e o f – o f th e i r … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir s it u a ti o n o n th is p o in t ? MS MEMELA: Th e i r r e lu c t a n c e i n t o a n y t h i n g t h a t h a s t o d o w i t h tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a l a g e n d a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS MEMELA: B e c a u s e e v e n o n t h e f in a l o n e t h e y d i d n o t w a n t to c o m m i t o n a s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t – b u t s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t is d i ff e r e n t to th e N I P o b li g a ti o n . T h a t is w h y I w a s c o n c e r n e d to p ic k 20 t h is u p . B e c a u s e y o u r e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y w a s th a t th e N I P o b li g a ti o n h a d n o t h in g to d o w i t h t h is fi n a l t e n d e r b e c a u s e t h e r e h a d b e e n a d e c is i o n t o r e p la c e t h e N I P o b l ig a ti o n w i t h a s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t o b li g a ti o n . I f th a t w a s y o u r e v id e n c e w h y w o u l d L u f th a n s a ’s p r e v i o u s p e r f o r m a n c e u n d e r a N I P o b l i g a t io n b e r e l e v a n t t o t h i s t e n d e r a t a ll ? MS MEMELA: C h a ir I w a n t to e x p l a i n a g a i n m y te s ti m o n y y e s te r d a y Page 106 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 w i t h r e g a r d t o N I P. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: I e x p l a in e d to M s H o f m e y r t h a t t h e r e is d ir e c t N I P a n d in d i r e c t N I P. Th e y a r e b o th N I P b u t t h e s u p p l i e r d e v e l o p m e n t f a l ls u n d e r i n d i r e c t N I P. S o it is s t il l N I P r e g a r d l e s s . A n d a l s o b o th t h e s e e l e m e n ts a r e s t il l u n d e r tr a n s f o r m a ti o n a l a g e n d a o f th is c o u n tr y. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d a n y o n e a c t u a l ly f i n d o u t w h e t h e r L u ft h a n s a h a d c o m p li e d w it h i t s N I P o b l i g a t io n s ? M S M E M E L A : I r e m e m b e r w h o is t h is – t h e C M o p e r a ti o n a t th a t t i m e 10 C h a ir w e h a d g o n e t o D T I w i th t h e m a n d H O D W o r k s h o p b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d t o f i n d o u t w i t h r e g a r d t o c e r t a i n o t h e r c o n tr a c ts w i t h L u f th a n s a o th e r t h a n t h a t p r e v i o u s o n e th a t t h e y h a d a d h e r e d t o th e N I P o b li g a ti o n . B u t a t t h a t ti m e th e r e w a s j u s t li k e s o m e d i s a g r e e m e n t s b e t w e e n th e m a n d t h e D T I . A s I s a i d t h a t i t is a l w a y s a r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n L u f t h a n s a a n d D TI . S o m e ti m e s t h e s e m u l ti n a t i o n a l c o m p a n i e s t h e y u n d e r s t a n d to h a v e a d h e r e d t o t h e N I P o b l ig a ti o n o n ly to fi n d th a t lik e h o w i t i s e x p l a i n e d b y t h e D T I it i s n o t w h a t i t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e . Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 c o m m i s s io n . Yo u s e e th e D TI h a s g iv e n a n a ffi d a v it t o t h e I t is th e o n e t h a t w e lo o k e d a t y e s t e r d a y in w h ic h t h e y h a v e c o n f ir m e d t h a t L u f th a n s a w a s n e v e r n o n - c o m p li a n t w i th i ts N I P o b li g a ti o n s . D o y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e t o t h a t? M S M E M E L A : C a n y o u g o t o t h a t a ffi d a v it f o r w h e n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s c e r ta i n ly s in c e 2 0 1 3 . I w ill g iv e i t t o y o u . I t is a t Ex h i b it D D 2 2 G . Page 107 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: S in c e 2 0 1 3 L u ft h a n s a in 2 0 1 3 C h a i r s o th a t w e d o n o t w a s te t i m e . L u ft h a n s a i n 2 0 1 3 w a s n o t th e s u p p li e r – s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r f o r c o m p o n e n t t e n d e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o th e p o i n t t h a t I a m m a k i n g , y o u s a id f o r w h a t p e r i o d h a d t h e y n o t b e e n n o n - c o m p li a n t . I n o t h e r w o r d s f o r w h a t p e r i o d h a d t h e y b e e n c o m p l ia n t? A c c o r d in g th e D TI ’s a ff id a v i t I w i ll r e a d it t o y o u . I t is in 2 2 G a t p a g e 2 9 7 7 . MS M EM ELA: Page? 29… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 9 7 7 . 10 M S M E M E L A : I a m h e r e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t th e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y M r O c t o b e r s a y s a t t h e b o t to m o f t h a t p a g e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 7 is t h e f o l lo w i n g : “ I s h o u ld a l s o p l a c e o n r e c o r d th a t M s K u r l a n d … ” T h a t is a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s i n v e s ti g a to r. “ R e q u e s t e d i n f o r m a ti o n in r e l a ti o n t o L u f t h a n s a ’s p e r f o r m a n c e o f i ts d u ti e s f lo w in g fr o m t h e o b l ig a ti o n a g r e e m e n t w h ic h w a s e n t e r e d i n t o b e t w e e n t h e D T I a n d L u f t h a n s a . Th e a g r e e m e n t w a s s ig n e d o n t h e 1 7 20 February 2013 and is a t ta c h e d hereto marked A n n e x u r e I . A c c o r d i n g t o t h e D T I ’s N I P r e c o r d s t h e r e is n o i n d ic a ti o n th a t L u f th a n s a is n o n - c o m p l i a n t i n r e l a ti o n t o i ts c u r r e n t N I P o b l ig a ti o n . I n th is r e g a r d I have a t ta c h e d h e r e to a p r in t o u t of L u f t h a n s a ’s p e r f o r m a n c e s t a tu s a s a t 3 0 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 9 . ” Page 108 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A n d h e a t t a c h e s th a t a s a n a n n e x u r e . H e g o e s a n d s a y s : “ T h e D TI h a s n e v e r r e c e iv e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m S A AT in r e l a ti o n to L u f t h a n s a ’s n o n - c o m p li a n c e w i t h it s c u r r e n t N I P o b li g a ti o n . ” MS MEMELA: C h a ir I th i n k m a y b e t h e r e i s a m is u n d e r s ta n d i n g w it h r e g a r d t o th e in t e r p r e ta t io n o f Ms H o f m e y r o r m a y b e M r K u r l a n d o r – a n d Mr H u m a n . In 2 0 1 3 L u f t h a n s a w a s n o t t h e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r o f c o m p o n e n t fo r S A AT. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MS MEMELA: T h is t e n d e r t h a t y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t l ik e t h e ir n o n - c o m p li a n c e w i th N I P o b l i g a t io n i t w a s s p e c i f ic a l ly r e fe r r e d t o th a t t e n d e r. R e m e m b e r L u f t h a n s a m a y h a v e h a d o t h e r c o n tr a c t s a t S A AT t h a t h a v e n o th in g t o d o w i t h t e n d e r – c o m p o n e n t te n d e r o r c o m p o n e n t s e r v ic e s . S o th e y m i g h t c o m p ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y mi g h t h a v e b e e n c o m p li a n t . M S M E M E L A : O n th e o th e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o o t h e r t e n d e r s . M S M E M E L A : E x a c tl y C h a ir. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M S M E M E L A : Ye s . S o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b u t – t h e n I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d . B e c a u s e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y t h a t a r e a s o n f o r n o t r e c o m m e n d in g L u ft h a n s a w a s t h a t i t h a d o u ts t a n d in g N I P o b l ig a ti o n s f r o m a p r e v io u s t e n d e r. T h a t is w h a t w a s r e c o r d e d … M S M E M E L A : P r e v i o u s c o m p o n e n t t e n d e r. Page 109 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . M S M E M E L A : N o t t h e o t h e r – n o t t h e o th e r s e r v ic e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b u t th e r e – w h a t p r e v i o u s c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r h a d L u f th a n s a b e e n a w a r d e d ? M S M E M E L A : O k a y li k e – C h a ir r e m e m b e r t h e r e i s c o m m i t m e n t t h a t a l l t h e s u p p l i e r s s h o u l d m a k e t h e y r e s p o n d t o t h e t e n d e r s . W i th r e g a r d t o t h e N I P o b li g a t i o n t h e r e i s a fo r m t h a t t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o fil l i n t o c o m m i t t o N I P o b li g a t io n . S o i t w a s a c t u a l ly r e fe r r i n g t o th a t p r e v i o u s t e n d e r f o r th e c o m p o n e n t . 10 R e m e m b e r t h e c o m p o n e n t t e n d e r s t a r te d fr o m 2 0 1 3 u p t o – i t w a s f in a l is e d i n 2 0 1 6 . S o M s H o f m e y r r e f e r r in g t o t h e a ffi d a v i t o f M r O c t o b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr O c t o b e r. M S M E M E L A : Ye s lik e t h a t – w h a te v e r t h a t is c o n f ir m i n g h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i th c o m p o n e n t te n d e r. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : point. M s M e m e l a I d o h a v e t o j u s t c o n c l u d e th is L u f t h a n s a s u b m i t te d a c o m p l ia n t b i d fo r t h e f i n a l c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n o t d i s q u a l if i e d . A m o n g s t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts in t h e f i n a l c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r w a s t h e f il li n g o u t o f t h e S B D 5 f o r m t h a t w e l o o k e d a t y e s te r d a y. 20 S o t h e y h a d f u l l y u n d e r t a k e n t o c o m p ly w i t h t h e N I P o b l ig a ti o n f o r t h e fi n a l t e n d e r. M S M E M E L A : I n t h e fi n a l te n d e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . W h a t w a s … M S M E M E L A : T h e r e w a s n o n e e d – th e r e w a s n o N I P o b li g a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t – le t h e r f i n is h M s M e m e l a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t is r e c o r d e d h e r e is t h a t t h e b id d e r s ti ll Page 110 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 h a s o u ts t a n d in g u n r e s o lv e d N I P o b l ig a ti o n s fr o m a p r e v i o u s t e n d e r. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . B u t t h a t t e n d e r w a s n e v e r a w a r d e d . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e n I s tr u g g le to u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u s e t h e r e c o u l d n e v e r b e a N I P o b l ig a ti o n t h a t w a s u n d e r t a k e n i n r e s p e c t o f a t e n d e r th a t w a s n o t a w a r d e d . M S M E M E L A : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k M s H o f m e y r is s a y i n g to y o u a n d M s H o f m e y r 10 y o u w il l li s te n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w il l t e ll m e i f I m is u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t i o n . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k h e r p o i n t is i f L u f t h a n s a w a s c o m p li a n t i n r e g a r d to t h e N I P o b li g a t i o n o r u n d e r t o o k t o c o m p ly w i t h t h a t o b li g a ti o n in r e g a r d t o a te n d e r t h a t w a s b e i n g lo o k e d a t , a t t h a t t i m e . MS MEMELA: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: It i s d i ff ic u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y t h e y w o u l d b e d is q u a l if i e d o r t h e y w o u l d n o t b e g iv e n a t e n d e r s i m p ly b e c a u s e i n t h e 20 p a s t th e r e w a s a t e n d e r in r e s p e c t o f w h i c h t h e y d i d n o t c o m p l y. Hofmeyr is that – A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h a t is … Page 111 of 217 Ms 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y s a y f a r m o r e e l o q u e n t ly th a n I p u t i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S M E M E L A : W e r e t h e y d is q u a li fi e d f o r n o t c o m p ly i n g w i t h th e N I P ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t h e p o i n t M s M e m e l a is t h a t t h e fi n a l t e n d e r, t h e o n e t h a t C F S T w a s e v a l u a t in g i n A p r il 2 0 1 6 . MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d a r e q u ir e m e n t th a t y o u h a d t o u n d e r t a k e a N I P o b li g a ti o n a n d y o u h a d t o w i th y o u r b i d s u b m i s s i o n s i g n a S B D 5 form. 10 A n d a ll o f th e s e b i d d e r s , L u f th a n s a , J M , A A R , A ir Fr a n c e c o m p li e d w i th t h a t . S o i n t h e ir b i d s f o r t h e f i n a l te n d e r t h e y s u b m it t e d t h e S B D 5 f o r m . T h a t i s w h y w h e n C F S T r e c o r d s t h i s th e y d o n o t t a l k a b o u t th is t e n d e r. T h e y s a y th e b id d e r s t il l h a s o u ts t a n d in g u n r e s o lv e d N I P o b li g a ti o n s fr o m a p r e v i o u s t e n d e r. And I understand you to say y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h a t w a s t h a t o n e o f t h e p r e v i o u s c o m p o n e n ts tenders that was never awarded they might not have submitted a SBD5 f o r m . Is th a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g ? MS MEMELA: M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a i r w a s t h a t s i n c e L u f t h a n s a w a s t h e p r e v i o u s c o m p o n e n t t e n d e r o f S A AT b e f o r e A ir F r a n c e . They had n e v e r a d h e r e d t o t h e N I P o b l ig a ti o n a s r e q u ir e d b y t h e … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e p a s t? MS M EM ELA: In the past. CHAIRPERSON: But you … M S M E M E L A : T h a t w il l b e m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: I do not know what is the understanding of Ms Kate but I Page 112 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 w a s s ti ll g o in g to a s k h i m – a s k h e r t o d ir e c t m e t o th e a g r e e m e n t t h a t she said it was an attachment to the… CHAIRPERSON: O k a y b e f o r e th a t . L e t u s ju s t m a k e s u r e w e understand the basic information. MS MEMELA: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i n r e g a r d to t h e t e n d e r t h a t M s H o f m e y r – t h a t w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t n o w – i n r e g a r d to t h a t t e n d e r d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t L u f t h a n s a w a s c o m p l ia n t o r u n d e r t o o k to c o m p ly w i t h t h e N I P o b l ig a ti o n ? 10 M S M E M E L A : I w o u ld n o t k n o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t k n o w ? MS MEMELA: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u – o r h a v e y o u c o m e a c r o s s a n y t h i n g th a t s u g g e s t s t h a t C F S T a t t h e ti m e t h o u g h t t h a t L u f th a n s a w a s n o t c o m p li a n t i n r e g a r d t o t h e N I P o b l ig a ti o n in r e g a r d t o th e t e n d e r t h e y w e r e c o n s id e r in g ? M S M E M E L A : N o t o n t h e te n d e r t h e y w e r e c o n s i d e r i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja only the previous one? M S M E M E L A : O n th e p r e v i o u s c o n t r a c t t h a t t h e y h a d w i th S A AT. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS MEMELA: B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r a N I P o b l ig a ti o n s t a r te d l o n g t i m e ago. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M S M E M E L A : Ye s a n d L u f t h a n s a w a s t h e p r e v i o u s c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 113 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M E M E L A : L i k e s u p p l ie r o f S A AT. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : Ye s b e f o r e A i r F r a n c e . CHAIRPERSON: N o w – w e ll m y q u e s ti o n a n d m a y b e M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t io n is , w h y w o u l d t h e y – i f t h e y w e r e c o m p l ia n t w i t h r e g a r d t o th e N I P o b l ig a ti o n u n d e r t o o k t o c o m p l y i n r e g a r d t o th e te n d e r t h a t w a s b e i n g c o n s id e r e d . M S M E M E L A : T h e fi n a l o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a th e fi n a l o n e . W h y w o u ld t h e fa c t t h a t s o m e ti m e 10 in t h e p a s t i n r e g a r d t o a n o t h e r te n d e r t h e y m i g h t n o t h a v e c o m p l ie d w h y w o u l d th a t b e u s e d a g a in s t t h e m ? MS MEMELA: M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t l ik e b e c a u s e t h e f in a l te n d e r t h e 2 0 1 6 o n e r e q u i r e d a l l th e m u l ti n a t i o n a l s u p p li e r s to b r in g t h e ir c o m m i t m e n t t o w a r d s t h e s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t . A n d my u n d e r s t a n d in g w i ll b e t h a t L u f th a n s a d i d n o t b r i n g t h e c o m m i t m e n t li k e o t h e r c o m p a n y – o t h e r m u l ti n a t i o n a l c o m p a n i e s l ik e A i r Fr a n c e b r o u g h t i n K w a n e C a p it a l. A J W a l t e r s b r o u g h t i n P e g a s u s . CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry I do not want to – I am not sure that I u n d e r s t a n d I th in k w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e . 20 MS MEMELA: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Th a t w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e fi n a l t e n d e r y o u h a v e n o t c o m e a c r o s s a n y th i n g t h a t s a y s , L u f t h a n s a w a s n o t c o m p li a n t? Yo u a r e not aware of anything that relates to them not having being compliant in r e g a r d t o th e f in a l te n d e r. Yo u a r e a w a r e o f a c o n c e r n th a t s o m e t i m e in t h e p a s t – s o m e t i m e b e fo r e t h i s t e n d e r. Page 114 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M E M E L A : B e f o r e t h is te n d e r y e s . CHAIRPERSON: They were not compliant? M S M E M E L A : Ye s a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m y q u e s t io n b e fo r e I s p e a k t o M s M b a n j w a i s I a m n o t s u r e th a t I w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d w h y t h e f a c t th a t s o m e t i m e i n t h e p a s t in r e s p e c t o f a p r e v i o u s t e n d e r t h e y m ig h t n o t h a v e c o m p li e d a n d i t w a s n o t a w a r d e d to th e m , w h y t h a t w o u ld b e u s e d a g a i n s t t h e m i n r e g a r d to t h e fi n a l t e n d e r. M S M E M E L A : I g u e s s C h a ir it w il l b e u s e d b a s e d o n th e f a c t th a t S A AT 10 a n d S A A t h a t ti m e w a s d r i v i n g a n a ti o n a l – a tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a l a g e n d a a n d N I P is p a r t o f t h e tr a n s f o r m a ti o n a l a g e n d a . CHAIRPERSON: S o e v e n i f th e y w e r e c o m p li a n t a t th e m o m e n t s o t o speak. M S M E M E L A : I a m n o t s u r e I a m s t il l g o i n g t o a s k M s H o f m e y r if th e y h a v e a c o m p l a in t o n t h e 2 0 1 6 o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : B u t l ik e fr o m w h a t I w a s r e a d i n g , w h a t w a s w r i t te n t h e r e b y th e C F S T i t s a i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 M S M E M E L A : J a . A b o u t s u p p ly d e v e lo p m e n t I d o n o t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s h e w il l a d d r e s s y o u r c o n c e r n . M s M b a n j w a h a s y o u r c o n c e r n f a l le n a w a y ? A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : N o th is is n o t a n o b j e c ti o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : J u s t f o r m e t o b e a b le t o f o ll o w. Page 115 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I w a n te d t o k n o w if b e c a u s e I h e a r M s M e m e l a s a y i n g L u f th a n s a w a s p r e v i o u s ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o n - c o m p li a n t . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : N o w a s p r e v i o u s ly t h e s u p p l ie r f o r t h e c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r. I w a n t t o c le a r t h a t o r i s i t n o t l ik e t h a t? CHAIRPERSON: Oh I did not understand that. I think the… A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s b e c a u s e t h a t i s … CHAIRPERSON: 10 I t h i n k le a v e a n o t e f o r M s H o f m e y r b u t my u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t i t w a s n o t – L u f t h a n s a w a s n o t c o m p li a n t in r e g a r d t o t h e N I P o b l ig a ti o n b u t th a t t e n d e r f o r w h i c h i t h a d p u t in a b i d w a s n o t a w a r d e d . Is t h a t fi n e M s M e m e l a ? O k a y M s – w e w il l c la r i fy i t M s M b a n jw a . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Pl e a s e . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Are we confusing you? M S M E M E L A : Yo h I a m s o c o n fu s e d C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir if I m a y a s s i s ts . MS MEMELA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e M s M e m e la f ir s t o f a l l a s k e d c o u l d s h e b e t a k e n t o th e a g r e e m e n t. M S M E M E L A : Ye s l ik e th e o n e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e t w e e n L u ft h a n s a a n d t h e D T I . f a c t i t is a n a g r e e m e n t . M S M E M E L A : J a le t u s … Page 116 of 217 B e c a u s e in 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R e l a t e d t o S A AT. MS MEMELA: Okay A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t . S o l e t u s g o t o t h a t. I t is in D D 2 2 G a n d i t is a t p a g e 3 1 2 4 . A p o l o g i e s th e fir s t p a g e i s 3 1 2 3 . CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry did you change the page number? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 1 2 3 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 3123? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir ju s t t o o r i e n ta t e o u r s e lv e s w h a t M r O c t o b e r h a d s a id i n h i s a ffi d a v i t w a s , h e h a d b e e n a s k e d b y t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s in v e s t i g a t o r s w h e t h e r L u f t h a n s a w a s n o n - c o m p l i a n t w i t h it s N I P o b li g a ti o n s a n d h e h a d g o n e b a c k t o t h e r e c o r d s a n d h e f o u n d t h e a g r e e m e n t th a t w a s e n t e r e d i n to a n d y o u s e e th a t a t p a g e 3 2 – 3123. I t i s b e t w e e n t h e G o v e r n m e n t o f t h e R e p u b lic o f S o u t h A fr ic a a n d L u ft h a n s a i n b r o a d t e r m s . A n d i f y o u t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e i t t e l ls y o u w h a t c o n tr a c t t h is is i n r e l a t i o n t o . T h a t is a t th e to p o f t h e p a g e . I t says: “ W h e r e a s t h e o b l ig o r t h a t i n L u f th a n s a h a s b e e n 20 a w a r d e d a c o n tr a c t fo r t h e m a i n t e n a n c e c l a s s i c power by the hour and cost prevent PBTH of and t h e n i t is a s e r ie s o f e n g i n e – w e l l a n e n g in e – o p e r a t e d b y S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s a n d o r m a in t a i n e d b y S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l f r o m t i m e to ti m e . C u r r e n t ly t h i s n u m b e r is 3 9 e n g i n e s . Page 117 of 217 C o n tr a c t 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 r e fe r e n c e a n d th e n i t h a s g o t t h e S A AT r e fe r e n c e . A n d i t s a y s i t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o in w r i t in g o n t h e 2 3 July 2013.” MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I u n d e r s t a n d M r O c to b e r ’s e v id e n c e i n h i s a ffi d a v i t h e s a y s : “This agreement was inforce at the time that the 2 0 1 6 b i d s w e r e b e in g a d ju d ic a te d a n d a c c o r d in g to t h e D T I r e c o r d s L u f t h a n s a w a s f u l ly c o m p l ia n t . 10 He a tt a c h e s t h e s c h e d u l e t o th a t e ffe c t a n d h e s a y s t h a t t h e r e w a s n o r e s p e c t i n w h i c h n o n - c o m p li a n c e h a d b e e n r a is e d i n w r i ti n g w i th t h e D T I . ” B u t d o e s t h a t a s s is t M s M e m e l a ? M S M E M E L A : C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : M s H o f m e y r I d o n o t k n o w m a y b e s h e d o e s n o t w a n t to lis t e n t o m y e x p la n a t i o n . B e f o r e s h e r e a d t h is a g r e e m e n t s h e s a id … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w e – w e a r e a l l – w e c a n – a t d i ffe r e n t ti m e s w e a l l – w e a r e a ll g e t t in g c o n fu s e d a t s o m e s t a g e o r a n o t h e r s o . 20 M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r s h e h a d s a id – s a i d t h a t h a s n o t h in g to d o w i t h c o m p o n e n t te n d e r. A n d s h e s a id th a t a c t u a ll y h a s e v e r y th in g to d o w i t h c o m p o n e n t t e n d e r. T h is a g r e e m e n t i s a n e n g i n e a g r e e m e n t . It i s n o t t h e c o m p o n e n t te n d e r a g r e e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : S o I d o n o t k n o w h o w I e x p la in t h is . L ik e I a m s a y in g i t Page 118 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 d o e s n o t m a t t e r h o w m a n y c o n tr a c ts … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u d i d – y o u d i d m a k e t h e p o in t e a r li e r t h a t … M S M E M E L A : Ye s s o I a m t r y i n g t o e x p l a i n . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w e r e r e f e r r i n g to t h e s p e c i f ic c o m p o n e n t t e n d e r a n d th a t th e y m i g h t h a v e b e e n c o m p li a n t i n r e g a r d to o th e r t e n d e r s . MS MEMELA: Th e y – t h e y h a v e c o m p l i e d to e n g i n e c o n t r a c t n o t t h e c o m p o n e n t te n d e r c o n tr a c t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h o n e w a s t h a t ? W a s t h a t t h e o n e fr o m 2008? MS MEMELA: T h is i s – n o , n o , t h e o n e fr o m 2 0 0 8 r e m e m b e r is b e t w e e n S A AT a n d A ir Fr a n c e . L u f th a n s a w a s t h e s u p p li e r o f S A AT b e f o r e th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h b e f o r e 2 0 0 8 ? MS M EM ELA: Before 2008. ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: S o r r y, sorry that o b li g a t i o n that you understood… M S M E M E L A : A n d a ls o … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th a t o b l ig a ti o n t h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e y h a d b e e n n o n - c o m p li a n t in r e s p e c t o f ? MS MEMELA: T h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n b u t l ik e r e m e m b e r a ls o C h a ir I s a i d t h i s t e n d e r w a s r u n fr o m 2 0 1 3 a n d i t w a s o n ly f i n a li s e d in 2 0 1 6 . 2 0 1 6 t h a t i s w h e n th e s u p p l i e r d e v e l o p m e n t w a s in tr o d u c e d . So by p r e v i o u s a l th o u g h t h e y a r e n o t s p e c i fic t h e y m i g h t b e r e fe r r i n g t o o n e Page 119 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 o f t h o s e t e n d e r s w h e r e t h e y d id n o t c o m m i t . B u t I d o k n o w a t t h e b a c k o f m y m i n d L u f t h a n s a h a s a l w a y s b e e n t h a t s u p p li e r th a t is r e lu c t a n t t o a d h e r e t o N I P o b li g a t i o n . A n d th a t a p p l ie s t o t h e o n e p r e v io u s ly b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r N I P o b li g a ti o n s t a r te d i n 1 9 9 7 s o a p e r s o n c a n n o t s a y o k a y b e c a u s e i t w a s l o n g ti m e a g o t h e r e fo r e it is o k a y. J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S M E M E L A : B u t li k e I a m g l a d t h a t Ms H o f m e y r u n d e r s ta n d s n o w t h a t t h is a g r e e m e n t s e n t b y M r O c t o b e r is fo r e n g in e . It is not for component. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i n 2 0 1 3 i t w a s c o m p l ia n t w i t h i ts N I P o b li g a ti o n s , c o r r e c t? M S M E M E L A : F o r e n g in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b u t i t w a s n o t a s u p p l i e r f o r c o m p o n e n ts a t t h a t t i m e . S o i n 2 0 1 3 L u f t h a n s a w a s a – I u n d e r s to o d y o u to s a y t h e c o m p o n e n ts r e l a t e d t o t h e p r e 2 0 0 8 p o s i ti o n ? CHAIRPERSON: [i n d is t in c t] i t w il l b e s o r te d o u t . I am sorry I am t h i n k i n g i t w i ll b e s o r t e d o u t m a y b e le t u s w a i t a b i t . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t is n o t o n ly s h e w h o i s being confused. I a m a l s o b e i n g c o n fu s e d . A n d i t i s th e m a n n e r in w h ic h th e e v i d e n c e is b e in g h a n d l e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : S h e i s g iv e n a n o m n i b u s s e t o f q u e s ti o n s t o w h i c h t o r e s p o n d t o . Br o k e n d o w n s o t h a t I c a n a ls o u n d e r s t a n d a s a Page 120 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e w h ic h t e n d e r w a s L u f t h a n s a i n v o lv e d in ? W a s i t a c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r o r w a s i t a n e n g i n e t e n d e r ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s th a t is w h y I w a s s a y in g i f y o u w a i t a b i t i t is g o i n g t o b e s o r te d o u t . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a t w a y I w a s g o i n g t o a s k C h a ir p e r s o n y o u t o i n t e r v e n e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a w a y o f t a k in g th o s e s t e p s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I f y o u c a n a s s is t u s t h e w a y y o u h a v e b e e n d o in g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : O th e r w i s e I a m a ls o v e r y c o n f u s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms Memela am I correct to understand your e v i d e n c e t o b e t h a t p r i o r to 2 0 0 8 L u f th a n s a w a s a s u p p li e r o f c o m p o n e n t s e r v ic e s to S A AT ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d i t is i n r e s p e c t o f t h o s e s e r v ic e s th a t it m a y n o t h a v e b e e n c o m p li a n t w i th it s N I P o b li g a ti o n ? M S M E M E L A : A n d i t c o u ld a l s o b e p o s s i b l e C h a ir t h a t l ik e w i t h i n t h e s e t e n d e r s fr o m 2 0 1 3 w h e n t h e y w e r e – w h e n t h e y w e r e r e s p o n d in g li k e t h e y d id n o t c o m m i t t o N I P o b li g a ti o n . B e c a u s e a ls o n o t c o m m i t ti n g lik e t h a t is c o u n te d a s w o r k d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h e t h e r th e t e n d e r is a w a r d e d o r n o t. O n c e t h e s u p p li e r s h o w s r e lu c ta n c e l ik e t h a t b y t h e Page 121 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C F S T i t is lo o k e d a t . J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y s o th e n t h a t h a s b e e n h e l p f u l . S o fr o m 2 0 1 3 i t m a y – y o u r e v id e n c e is i t m a y h a v e b e e n t h a t w h e n t h e y s u b m i tt e d p r e v io u s b i d s f o r te n d e r s t h e y d i d n o t c o m p ly w i t h t h e N I P o b li g a ti o n , is th a t r i g h t? M S M E M E L A : W h y w e t a lk i n g a b o u t 2 0 1 3 n o w ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e y o u j u s t s p o k e a b o u t 2 0 1 3 . M S M E M E L A : N o li k e t h i s 2 0 1 3 w a s r e f e r r in g to t h is e n g i n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u d i d ta lk a b o u t 2 0 1 3 M s M e m e la . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t i n y o u r a n s w e r a m o m e n t a g o . MS MEMELA: N o b u t lik e I w a s e x p l a i n in g C h a ir t h a t r e m e m b e r t h e t e n d e r s t h a t k e p t o n b e i n g r e tr a c te d s ta r t e d f r o m 2 0 1 3 a n d f i n a li s e d i n 2016. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: S o i t m ig h t – I s a i d i t m ig h t h a p p e n b e t w e e n 2 0 1 3 a n d 2 0 1 6 o n th o s e t e n d e r s th a t k e p t o n g o i n g o u t. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t s h e is ta lk i n g a b o u t . MS M EM ELA: Them I have not … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s e x a c t ly i t . 20 M S M E M E L A : B u t n o w s h e is r e f e r r i n g to 2 0 1 3 a l o n e . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l n o t r e a ll y. N o I d o n o t t h i n k s h e r e fe r s t o it a l o n e b u t s h e is f o l lo w in g u p o n y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t i t is p o s s i b l e t h a t e v e n f r o m 2 0 1 3 o n w a r d s L u f t h a n s a m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n c o m p li a n t o r m i g h t s t il l h a v e b e e n r e lu c ta n t . M S M E M E L A : F o r c o m p o n e n ts ? Page 122 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . F o r c o m p o n e n ts . M S M E M E L A : N o t w a n t e n g in e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k s h e i s - t h a t is w h e r e s h e i s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e is , j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr e c is e ly w h e r e I w a s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m in d e b t e d . S o w h e n t h is r is k i n r e la t io n to L u f t h a n s a w a s i d e n t i fi e d fo r t h e fi n a l c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r. What was t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t w a s t h a t o n p r e v i o u s b i d s u b m is s i o n s th e y h a d m a d e o n c o m p o n e n ts s i n c e 2 0 1 3 . They may not have committed to an o b li g a ti o n . M S M E M E L A : I t i s n o t w r i t te n th e r e M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I a m g e t ti n g t h e b e n e fi t o f y o u r in s i g h t . MS M EM ELA: Ja. I am saying - remember I said it is possible … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 20 M S M E M E L A : B u t w h a t t h e C F S T h a s w r i t t e n is n o t - is n o t s a y i n g f r o m - th a t is w h y y o u h e a r m e - t h e y m a y h a v e b e e n r e f e r r in g t o th e o n e b e f o r e A ir F r a n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: O r m a y b e b e tw e e n th e o n e s t h a t w e r e c a n c e ll e d o r w h a t e v e r. Page 123 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . Th a t is fi n e . S o y o u a r e s a y in g y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h ic h o n e s t h e y g a v e . Yo u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o … M S M E M E L A : J a , b e c a u s e i t i s n o t c le a r o f th e d a t e s . Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: But you are saying that you do know … MS MEMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t in t h e p a s t … M S M E M E L A : T h e y d i d n o t c o m p ly. 10 CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e h a d b e e n r e l u c ta n c e o n th e ir p a r t t o c o m m i t themselves to … M S M E M E L A : To N I P O b li g a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N I P O b l ig a ti o n s . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . In t e r m s o f th e c o m p o n e n t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th e c o m p o n e n ts ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o o t h e r c o n tr a c ts y o u d o n o t k n o w ? M S M E M E L A : J a . W i t h r e g a r d to o th e r e n g i n e c o n tr a c ts … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 M S M E M E L A : B e c a u s e th e y h a d lo t s o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n tr a c ts , j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o n tr a c ts w i th S A AT. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . Page 124 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n w e c a n m o v e t o th e B o a r d d e c is io n it s e l f o n th e fi n a l a w a r d Ms M e m e l a . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e … M S M E M E L A : C a n w e g o th e r e i f … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e B o a r d d e c i s i o n t o o k p l a c e o n 9 M a y 2 0 1 6 . Yo u w i ll r e c a l l t h a t. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C a n y o u - c a n w e g o t h e r e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s o f c o u r s e . 10 MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m j u s t w a n t in g t o e s t a b l is h w h e r e w e a r e i n t h e e v id e n c e a n d y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f it . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u - y o u r e c a l l t h a t t h e d e c is i o n w a s o n 9 M a y 2 0 1 6 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, th e r e a s o n w h y I a m a s k in g if w e c a n g o th e r e . I w a n t to c o n fir m s o m e th i n g I - I a m l o o k i n g a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS M EM ELA: So that I do not say … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o to it . M S M E M E L A : I th i n k s o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s g o t h e r e . M S M E M E L A : O r I d o k n o w e x a c t ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s a t D D 2 2 F. I t h i n k i t i s th e o n e t h a t w a s i n fr o n t o f y o u . D D 2 2 F a n d y o u w i ll fi n d i t a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 0 - 4 . Page 125 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS M EM ELA: Page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 - 3 - 0 - 4 . MS M EM ELA: Page 2-3-0-4. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r t h is i s th e p a g e th a t y o u d o n o t lik e , b e c a u s e t h e r e i s h a n d w r i ti n g o v e r t h e p a g i n a t io n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e d id l o o k a t i t b e f o r e i n Mr H u m a n ’s evidence. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u l o o k a t 2 - 3 - 0 - 5 . I t is - i t is e a s ie r. W h a t is t h is d o c u m e n t M s M e m e l a ? M S M E M E L A : I a m s t ill g e tt i n g t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y. MS M EM ELA: 2-3-0-4 right? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . MS MEMELA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h i n k u l ti m a t e ly s h e w a n ts y o u t o g o t o 2 - 3 - 0 - 5 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d a n d w h i l e y o u a r e g e tt i n g th e r e m a y b e I ju s t r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d w h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a t. W e a r e l o o k i n g a t t h e 20 m i n u t e s o f t h e S p e c ia l M e e t in g o f t h e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s Te c h n i c a l S O C L td B o a r d … MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Of Directors held on Monday 9 May 2016 at 0 8 : 3 0 a t t h e m a i n b o a r d r o o m a n d I in d e e d w a n te d to d ir e c t y o u t o 2 - 3 - 0 - 5 , b e c a u s e t h a t a s I h a v e i t a t C l a u s e 4 .1 o n th a t p a g e o r Page 126 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 p a r a g r a p h 4 . 1 is w h e r e t h e s u b m is s i o n r e l a ti n g t o t h e fi n a l t e n d e r i s r e fl e c t e d a n d th e n a li t t le b i t f u r t h e r d o w n t h a t w e h a v e t h e r e s o l u ti o n o f t h e B o a r d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e fi n a l t e n d e r. MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e t h a t M s M e m e l a ? MS M EM ELA: 2-3-0-5? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 - 3 - 0 - 5 … M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s a p a r a g r a p h 4 . 10 M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t s a y s m a t t e r s f o r c o n s i d e r a t i o n o r a p p r o v a l … MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t 4 . 1 i t r e c o r d s i n th e s e m i n u t e s : “The s u b m is s io n According to was the tabled and s u b m is s i o n considered. ma nagement r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e t e n d e r b e a w a r d e d t o Ai r Fr a n c e . A d i s c u s s io n o n t h e m a tt e r e n s u e d a n d t h e Board 20 made the f o ll o w i n g comments: a, m a n a g e m e n t’s r a ti o n a le f o r r e c o m m e n d in g th a t A ir Fr a n c e b e a w a r d e d t h e te n d e r w a s n o t s u b s ta n ti v e c o n s i d e r in g t h e b i d d e r s r e s is t a n c e t o a l ig n it s e l f t o S A AT ’s development agenda i.e. s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t . F u r t h e r m o r e th e b e n e fi t s a s o u tl in e d b y t h e s u b m is s io n a s a r e s u l t o f s e l e c t in g A ir Page 127 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 Fr a n c e w e r e n o t c o m p e l li n g e n o u g h t o p o s i ti o n t h e la t t e r a s th e p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r. The concerns r e g a r d in g J M / A A R e s p e c i a l ly m a n a g e m e n t v i e w th a t t h is b i d d e r w a s l o w b a ll in g c o u ld b e m i ti g a t e d b y r e d u c i n g e a c h p a r ty ’s o b li g a t i o n s a s w e l l a s te r ms a n d c o n d i ti o n s to w r i t in g . ” A n d t h e n t h e r e s o l u t i o n is r e f l e c te d . “ R e s o lv e t h a t t h e r e q u e s t f o r t h e a p p r o v a l o f t h e award of a te n d e r fo r the a ir c r a f t c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t a n d s e r v ic e s o n ATA C h a p te r f o r b o t h th e 10 B o e i n g a n d A i r b u s Fl e e ts f o r a p e r i o d o f f iv e y e a r s t o J M / A A R B a n d h e r e is h e r e b y a p p r o v e d s u b j e c t to the m i ti g a t io n of a ll risks h i g h li g h t e d in th e s u b m is s io n . ” Do you see that? M S M E M E L A : I s e e t h a t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h is r e s o l u t i o n a t t h e ti m e it was made? C H A I R P E R S O N : O r s o o n a f te r i t w a s m a d e o r - j a . Yo u m i g h t n o t h a v e 20 b e e n a w a r e a t th e ti m e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: It was made, because you were not at the Board m e e ti n g . M S M E M E L A : E x a c tl y. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 128 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . A p o lo g i e s . M a y b e la t e r t h a t d a y o r … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h o r tl y th e r e a f t e r. W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th e r e s o l u ti o n ? MS MEMELA: W e w e r e m a d e a w a r e C h a ir a f te r M r M a l o la P h ir i - I t h i n k h e s e n t t h e - t h e B o a r d r e s o lu t io n , b u t a lr e a d y a s I s a i d e a r l ie r t h e r e w e r e a lr e a d y t a lk s th a t s o m e p e o p l e a lr e a d y k n e w w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a n d s o m e h a d a lr e a d y n o t i fi e d A ir Fr a n c e . A ir Fr a n c e w a s a lr e a d y t a k i n g s t e p s to t a k e S A AT t o c o u r t a n d a ll th a t , b u t I - I d o 10 k n o w t h a t o f c o u r s e w e u s u a ll y g e t n o w w h e n I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t f o r m a l - provisional formal. J a . W e - w e g e t th e f e e d b a c k a f t e r th e - t h e C E O c o m e s b a c k fr o m t h e B o a r d M e e t i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w e r e n o t p r e s e n t a t th a t m e e ti n g . T h a t is c l e a r fr o m th e m i n u t e s . C o r r e c t ? MS M EM ELA: Correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u s u p p o r t t h e d e c is i o n t h a t th e B o a r d h a d ta k e n o n t h a t d a y ? 20 MS M EM ELA: Did I support it? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, r e m e m b e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t s h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t - w h a t s h e i s ta lk in g a b o u t is w h e n y o u c a m e t o k n o w t h a t t h i s w a s t h e d e c is io n t h a t w a s t a k e n . W h a t w a s y o u r v i e w a b o u t it ? I f y o u h a d a n y. Page 129 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a ir. F ir s t o f a l l w h e n t h e B o a r d - w h a t - w h a t w e u s e d t o . N o t t h a t i t i s a l e g is l a ti o n o r a n y r u l e . S o t h a t w e - w e d o n o t c o m e b a c k d is c u s s i n g a w r i tt e n r u l e o r w h a t . Th e p r e c e d e n ts s o f a r lik e w h a t w e h a v e s e e n w i th r e g a r d t o t h e B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n . they are not happy l ik e they were not happy with When L u f th a n s a . R e m e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: I s th a t - w h e n y o u s a y “ t h e y ” n o w. Yo u m e a n th e - the bidders? MS M EM ELA: The Board. 10 CHAIRPERSON: The Board? MS M EM ELA: The Board. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n - w h e n t h e y a r e n o t h a p p y w i th a b i d d e r ? M S M E M E L A : W i th a - h u h - u h . W i th a r e c o m m e n d a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS MEMELA: Fr o m C F S T a n d - a n d m a n a g e m e n t t h e y e i t h e r - t h e y u s u a ll y c o m m e n t a n d a s k fo r w o r k a n d - a n d s t a te w h a t n e e d s t o - t o b e corrected. Like for instance they have said here that the risks that are 20 r a i s e d - w h a t e v e r s h a ll b e t h i s a n d t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: I am going to interrupt you. MS MEMELA: But … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms M e m e l a . MS MEMELA: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: I want us to go back to the crisp answers. Page 130 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M E M E L A : O h . O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s y o u r v ie w o f t h is r e s o l u ti o n ? D i d - d i d y o u have a view? D i d y o u t h in k i t w a s g o o d - a g o o d d e c is io n ? Did you t h i n k i t w a s n o t a g o o d d e c is i o n o r y o u h a d n o v i e w a t a ll a b o u t i t ? M S M E M E L A : O f c o u r s e w e w e r e a ll s h o c k e d . W e - w e w e r e n o t u s e d t o th e B o a r d m a k i n g a d e c i s i o n th e r e a n d t h e r e o n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n . A s - o k a y. N o w I a m w o r r i e d t h a t I w i ll n o t b e c r is p , b u t l ik e t h e - t h e B o a r d u s u a l ly s a y s i f t h e y a r e n o t h a p p y … C H A I R P E R S O N : S e n d s i t b a c k t o - to … 10 M S M E M E L A : G o b a c k fo r a w o r k … CHAIRPERSON: And work, ja. MS MEMELA: A n d t h e n w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k a n d t h e n t h e y w i ll s a y m a y b e a p p r o v a l s u b j e c t to … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . M S M E M E L A : O r s o m e t h in g o r m a y b e d e c l in e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S M E M E L A : G o b a c k fo r w o r k a n d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : A d d r e s s t h e s e is s u e s a n d c o m e b a c k t o u s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: When you say you were all shocked. Can - can I take t h a t to m e a n y o u d i d n o t s u p p o r t t h e - th e d e c is io n o r a r e y o u s a y i n g I w a s s h o c k e d . N o t n e c e s s a r i ly t h a t I d id n o t s u p p o r t i t o r I d i d n o t h a v e a v i e w o n i t , b u t I d id n o t e x p e c t i t . Page 131 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M E M E L A : O k a y. I - I w o u ld s a y w h e n y o u s a y w e w e r e , b e c a u s e s o m e o f u s - e x e c u tiv e s w e r e d i s c u s s in g t h is a n d w e s a i d w e - w e h a v e n e v e r d e a l t w i th a n is s u e l ik e th is , b u t a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y w e u n d e r s t o o d t h e B o a r d b e i n g t h e a c c o u n t i n g a u t h o r i ty a n d t h e y h a d t h e ir own reasons that they made that decision. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d th e n l ik e t o ta k e y o u t o t h e m i n u t e s o f t h e B o a r d M e e ti n g t h a t o c c u r r e d o n 1 5 J u n e 2 0 1 6 . MS M EM ELA: The 15th. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t is a b o u t a m o n th o r s o l a t e r. For that M s M e m e l a y o u w il l h a v e t o g o in t o D D 2 5 B . T h a t is y o u r b u n d l e . I t is t h e s m a l le r s e c o n d b u n d le a n d y o u w il l p ic k i t u p a t p a g e 2 - p a g e 6 - 2 - 1 . W h il e y o u a r e l o o k i n g f o r i t M s M e m e l a . I d o a p o lo g i s e . M y my … MS M EM ELA: Page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e g iv e y o u t h e p a g e . I t is D D 2 5 B a t p a g e 6-2-1. M s M e m e l a , I h a v e m a d e a n e r r o r i n w h a t I p u t to y o u e a r l ie r a n d I - I d o n e e d t o c o r r e c t i t f o r th e r e c o r d . I - I a p o l o g is e . I h a v e b e e n a l e r t e d t o it . I s a i d in o n e o f m y q u e s ti o n s t o y o u . Yo u w e r e n o t 20 p r e s e n t a t th e B o a r d M e e t i n g o n 9 M a y 2 0 1 6 a n d t h a t s e e m s t o b e in c o r r e c t b a s e d o n t h e mi n u te s . Yo u w i ll s e e w h e r e w e w e r e p r e v i o u s ly in D D 2 2 G a t p a g e 2 - 3 0 - 4 . S o r r y F. W e w e r e in D D 2 2 F. Th e m i n u t e s o f t h a t m e e t in g - t h e o n e w h e r e th e d e c is i o n w a s ta k e n to a w a r d i t t o A A R in d i c a t e s t h a t a tt e n d a n c e i n c lu d e d y o u . C a n y o u a s s is t u s o n t h a t ? Page 132 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS M EM ELA: 15 June 2016? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No. S o r r y. M s M e m e la , I d i d n o t w a n t to d is r u p t t h in g s to o m u c h . W e a r e g o i n g to m o v e to 1 5 J u n e m e e ti n g i n a m o m e n t . S o p le a s e k e e p t h a t o p e n . M S M E M E L A : O h . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s a i d t h a t - i t h a s b e e n p o i n te d o u t t o m e t h a t I m a d e a n e r r o r i n a q u e s ti o n I a s k e d y o u p r e v i o u s ly. I s a i d t h a t I h a d t h o u g h t t h e m i n u t e s r e fl e c t e d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t i n a t t e n d a n c e … MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t th e B o a r d M e e ti n g o n 9 M a y, b u t i t h a s b e e n b r o u g h t to m y a t t e n t io n t h a t t h e m i n u t e s r e fl e c t t h a t y o u w e r e i n a tt e n d a n c e . I w o u ld li k e u s j u s t t o c l e a r t h a t u p i n y o u r e v i d e n c e . M S M E M E L A : ( I n te r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e p r e v i o u s m in u te s - C h a ir I d o n o t s u g g e s t y o u n e e d t o g o th e r e . J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d i t is D D 2 2 F a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 0 - 4 . Yo u w ill s e e t h a t is t h e m i n u te s o f th e m e e ti n g o f 9 M a y a n d in a tt e n d a n c e i n c lu d e s y o u r s e l f . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S M E M E L A : ( W i t n e s s r e a d in g to h e r s e l f) . M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : ( In d i s ti n c t) . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e p a g e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e p a g e is 2 - 3 - 0 - 4 . M S L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : 2 - 3 - 0 - 4 . M S M E M E L A : J a . T h e - t h e a t t e n d a n c e C h a ir i t is w r i t t e n t h a t I w a s i n a tt e n d a n c e . Page 133 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? M S M E M E L A : N o . I d o n o t r e c a ll , b e c a u s e a s I s a i d I r e m e m b e r t h a t w e g o t i t t h r o u g h th e c a l ls . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MS MEMELA: It i s j u s t t h a t t h is o n e c o m p a r e d to th e o n e f o r th e G P U s . Yo u s e e t h a t o n e i t s h o w s th a t a p e r s o n w a lk e d i n fo r a s p e c i fic it e m - t o t a lk a b o u t a s p e c i fi c i t e m . S o I m a y h a v e b e e n g i v e n w h a t d o y o u c a l l t h i s ? A p a c k t o a tt e n d f o r a s p e c i fic i t e m , b e c a u s e I c a n s e e t h a t t h e r e w e r e a ls o ty r e s - t h e a p p r o v a l f o r ty r e s a s w e l l a n d th e n a ls o 10 it lo o k s l ik e I w a s g o i n g t o ta lk a b o u t - c o n fir m s o m e th i n g fr o m B A C p o i n t o f v i e w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MS MEMELA: Ye s . S o it m i g h t h a p p e n th a t I w a s c a l l e d f o r t h a t s p e c i f ic i t e m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S M E M E L A : I t i s j u s t t h a t t h i s o n e is n o t s p e c i f ic a s t h e G P U s o n e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MS MEMELA: B e c a u s e th e G P U o n e th e - in f a c t i t d e p e n d s w h i c h c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y w r i te s , b u t o t h e r s s a y a p e r s o n w a l k e d in d u r in g t h is 20 moment. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u f o r t h a t. r e c o l l e c ti o n o f b e in g i n a t t e n d a n c e ? M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t h a v e a r e c o l l e c ti o n . Page 134 of 217 So you do not have a 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S M E M E L A : J a . O f … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ju s t w a n t e d t o c l e a r th a t u p . W e c a n n o w g o to the … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - I a m s o r r y. Yo u d o n o t h a v e a r e c o l le c t i o n , b u t it is p o s s i b l e t h a t th e m i n u t e s a r e - a r e r ig h t? MS MEMELA: I a m - I a m s a y i n g C h a ir. It might be possible that b e c a u s e o f h o w - li k e - lik e I m e a n … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 M S M E M E L A : J a . It d i ff e r s fr o m o n e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y t o th e o t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : O t h e r s a r e s p e c i f ic t h a t a p e r s o n i s w a l k i n g in . J o i n in g t h e m e e ti n g f o r a s p e c i fi c i t e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. Ye s . M S M E M E L A : Yo u k n o w, b e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r I s a i d I d o n o t a tt e n d t h e m e e ti n g , b u t o n ly t h r o u g h a n d in v i t e w h e n t h e B o a r d r e q u ir e s c e r ta i n f e e d b a c k fr o m m e o r … C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n - c a n I t a k e t h e m i n u te s t h e n - c a n I ta k e i t th a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g in r e g a r d to t h e s e m i n u te s is t h a t to t h e e x t e n t t h a t 20 t h e m i n u t e s r e f l e c t t h a t y o u w e r e p r e s e n t . Yo u d o n o t d is p u te h a v i n g been present … MS M EM ELA: Ja, but … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t y o u - w h a t y o u s u s p e c t is th a t i t is u n l ik e ly y o u w e r e p r e s e n t th r o u g h o u t t h e m e e t in g . M S M E M E L A : J a . N o t th r o u g h o u t t h e m e e ti n g . Page 135 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u - y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t y o u th in k f o r a c e r ta in p e r i o d o f ti m e … M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e m i n u t e s ju s t … M S M E M E L A : F o r a s p e c i fi c i te m . CHAIRPERSON: H a p p e n s n o t t o s h o w - n o t to m a k e a d is ti n c ti o n b e t w e e n p e o p le w h o w e r e p r e s e n t fo r th e e n t ir e m e e ti n g a n d t h o s e w h o m a y h a v e c o m e a n d a t t e n d e d f o r - o n ly a s h o r t t i m e ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e n I w o u l d l ik e t o g o to D D 2 5 B , b e c a u s e w e w e r e g o i n g t o l o o k th e r e a t t h e m i n u t e s o f th e m e e t i n g o f 15 June 2016 and that was at page 6-2-1. D o y o u h a v e th a t Ms Memela? M S M E M E L A : P a g e 6 - 2 - 1 ? Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . N o w t h e s e a r e t h e m in u t e s t h a t w e h a v e lo o k e d a t p r e v i o u s l y r e l a t e d t o t h e G P U s … M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e y o u - a s y o u h a v e 20 ju s t in d ic a te d y o u j o i n e d t h e m e e t i n g a t a p o in t a n d y o u c a n a c t u a l ly fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 6 - 2 - 5 . I f y o u g o to p a g e 6 - 2 - 5 a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 6 th e r e . MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r th e h e a d in g “L o g is t ic s P h a s e d A p p r o a c h R o ll o u t ” . I t i s r e f le c te d th e r e i n i t a l ic s . “ S A AT H O D S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t j o i n e d th e Page 136 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 m e e ti n g . ” MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g to ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s . T h a t is w h a t I w a s r e f e r r in g to … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . MS MEMELA: C h a ir, b u t a ls o w a s s a y in g d i ffe r e n t - lik e I m e a n d e p e n d in g w h ic h on company secretary is s i t t in g there. My u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t I t h i n k f o r th e B o a r d a t t h a t t i m e i t w a s M r M a s o a n d th e n fo r G P U s i t w a s M s M a a k e ( ? ) . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MS MEMELA: S o e a c h c o m p a n y ’s s e c r e t a r y w r i t e s t h e m i n u te s t h e ir o w n s ty l e . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . MS MEMELA: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No. I - I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t is a m a t t e r o f c o n te n ti o n . M S M E M E L A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I w o u ld li k e t o l o o k a t is w h a t y o u s a id a ft e r y o u jo i n e d t h a t m e e ti n g a b o u t th e A A R a w a r d o f t h e c o m p o n e n t s 20 t e n d e r, b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a ls o s o m e th i n g t h a t w a s a c tu a l ly d is c u s s e d a t t h is m e e ti n g a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 6 - 2 - 7 . A t p a g e 6 - 2 - 7 … MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e r e is a p a r a g r a p h 4 . 9 w h ic h is h e a d e d “ A d d r e s s i n g t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s Ar t ic l e o n A A R . ” D o y o u s e e t h a t ? M S M E M E L A : I s e e t h a t. Page 137 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t t h is m i n u t e r e fl e c ts i s th a t t h e D e p u ty C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y c i r c u l a te d t w o d o c u m e n ts fr o m t h e S A A B o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n . MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A le t t e r addressed to th e S A AT Board C h a ir p e r s o n a n d a n a d d it i o n a l d r a f t l e t t e r a d d r e s s e d t o th e M i n i s te r o f Fi n a n c e r e g a r d i n g t h e A A R a r t ic le . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t a r ti c l e ? 10 M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t r e c a ll i t d e t a i l b y d e ta il . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . M S M E M E L A : J a , b u t I d o r e c a l l th e r e w a s s o m e t h in g w r it t e n o n t h a t m a t t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . I t g o e s o n a n d i t s a y s : “ T h e C h a ir p e r s o n g a v e f e e d b a c k t o t h e l e t te r s a n d in d i c a t e d t h a t th e S A A B o a r d h a d i n i ti a t e d a n in v e s t i g a t io n into procurement processes and c o n tr a c ts m a n a g e m e n t a t S A A a n d i ts s u b s id ia r i e s . ” MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ S h e s ta t e d t h a t A A R w a s n o t - w a s in it i a l ly n o t w i t h i n t h e s c o p e o f th e in v e s ti g a ti o n w h ic h w a s c o n d u c t e d b y Er n s t & Yo u n g , b e c a u s e it w a s n o t y e t c o n d u c ti n g b u s in e s s w it h S A AT. ” MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e c o n ti n u e d th a t : Page 138 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 “ T h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e S A A B o a r d h a d th e n in d i c a t e d th a t s h e w o u l d n o t a c c e p t t h e S A AT R e p o r t w i th o u t i n v e s ti g a ti o n in t o A A R . ” MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ Th e r e a ft e r Er n s t & in it i a t e d a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n to A A R . Yo u n g had T h e m e e t in g w a s in f o r m e d t h a t th e S A A B o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n w a s o f t h e v i e w th a t th e A A R C o n t r a c t s h o u ld b e t e r m in a t e d . ” 10 A n d t h e n w e g o o v e r th e p a g e t o p a g e 6 - 2 - 8 . “ M e m b e r o f th e B o a r d d is c u s s e d t h e m a tt e r a n d concluded that on p r e s e n ta t io n e v a l u a t i o n t o th e B o a r d . of the tender S A AT M a n a g e m e n t c o u l d n o t s u p p o r t th e ir r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o a p p o i n t A ir Fr a n c e a n d th e r e fo r e t h e c o n tr a c t w a s a w a r d e d to A A R w h i c h w a s s e c o n d b e s t. ” Do you see that? MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i t i s r e c o r d e d h e r e t h a t y o u r e p o r te d 20 s o m e t h i n g t o th e B o a r d , b e c a u s e i t s a y s : “The HOD SCM …” T h a t is a r e f e r e n c e t o y o u a s I u n d e r s ta n d it . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S M E M E L A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r e p o r t e d t h a t : “ S A AT M a n a g e m e n t s u p p o r t e d t h e B o a r d ’s d e c i s i o n Page 139 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 t o a p p o in t A A R , b e c a u s e i t w a s j u s t if i a b le . ” And you went on and stated that: “ S A AT h a d r e s p o n d e d to a le t t e r r e c e i v e d fr o m L u f t h a n s a a n d A ir F r a n c e a n d h a d n o t r e c e iv e d a n y f u r th e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h e r e a f t e r. ” MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u h ig h li g h t e d t h a t: “ T h e M R O w o u ld b e m o r e a t r is k o f f a c i n g l i ti g a t i o n s h o u l d i t e n d e a v o u r to c a n c e l t h e A A R a w a r d . ” 10 A n d t h e n i t c o n c l u d e s w it h : “ T h e B o a r d o b s e r v e d t h a t it w a s c le a r t h a t th e c o m p la i n t s a g a i n s t t h e a w a r d o f t h e c o n tr a c t to A A R w e r e t h a t o f a d is g r u n t l e d s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r a s o p p o s e d t o l e g i ti m a t e c o n c e r n s . ” Do you see that? M S M E M E L A : I s e e t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Would it be f a ir to say then that by 1 5 J u n e 2 0 1 6 y o u - y o u w e r e in s u p p o r t o f t h e B o a r d ’s d e c is i o n to a w a r d th is t o A A R ? 20 M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, I - I t h in k I - a c t u a l l y e v e n b e f o r e I a n s w e r th is . Remember I was saying to Ms Hofme yr during our m e e t in g on 6 D e c e m b e r l a s t y e a r t h a t a s m u c h a s w e - th e B o a r d - h a d m a d e th e ir o w n d e c i s i o n th a t w a s d i ff e r e n t fr o m m a n a g e m e n t a n d - j a . So - but w h e n t h e c o m p a n y f a c e s is s u e s l ik e t h e m e d i a r e p o r ti n g n e g a ti v e ly o n t h e c o m p a n y a n d Ai r F r a n c e ta k i n g t h e c o m p a n y to c o u r t . Page 140 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 O u r d u ty a s S A AT E x e c u ti v e s is t o e n s u r e t h a t w e - w e a c t i n t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f S A AT. That is when I even said we then had a p p o i n t e d t h e l a w y e r s t o r e p r e s e n t S A AT a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t S A AT d o e s n o t l o s e a n d i n d e e d t h e - S A AT w o n t h e c a s e fr o m c o u r t w i t h c o s ts . S o s u p p o r t i n g fr o m t h a t p e r i o d o f c o u r s e th e r e w a s a b s o l u t e ly nothing that I could have done. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l l a m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d th e c o n n e c t io n th a t I t h i n k y o u m a k e b e t w e e n t h e s t a n c e o f s e n d i n g l a w y e r s to t h e - t o c o u r t t o d e fe n d S A AT … 10 MS MEMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o f th e o b li g a ti o n to a c t i n t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f S A AT, b e c a u s e t h a t o b l i g a t io n is a l w a y s t h e r e w h a te v e r y o u d o . Is it not? M S M E M E L A : T h a n k y o u . S o I w a s ju s t c o n f ir m i n g t h a t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS MEMELA: T h a t w e a l w a y s h a v e t o s u p p o r t th e c o m p a n y a n d t h e d e c is i o n th a t w a s m a d e b y th e B o a r d a t t h a t ti m e . I t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n m a d e a n d w e h a d t o g o w i t h i t a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t w e d e f e n d i n c o u r t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S M E M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u r o b li g a t io n to a c t i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y d o e s n o t m e a n s u p p o r ti n g a - a w r o n g d e c i s i o n . Is i t n o t ? M S M E M E L A : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d o e s i t g o t h a t fa r. I a m j u s t w a n ti n g to c l a r i fy t h is p a r t ic u l a r p a r t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e . Page 141 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, r e m e m b e r I - w h e n I r e s p o n d e d I s a i d … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S M E M E L A : T h e B o a r d m a d e th e i r o w n d e c is i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : A n d t h e y h a d t h e ir r e a s o n s w h y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M S M E M E L A : W h ic h is - m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t I - I k n o w th a t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S M E M E L A : M a y b e o n e ti m e o r e v e n t u a l ly … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : Yo u - y o u w i ll c a l l th e B o a r d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS MEMELA: Members in … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : To r e s p o n d o n t h e i r b e h a lf . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : O n - o n t h e ir o w n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : S o t h e y w il l b e a b le t o g iv e r e a s o n s w h y … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : T h e y - t h e y t o o k th a t d e c is i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e … M S M E M E L A : S o I s a i d fo r - I s a id f o r u s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S M E M E L A : B e c a u s e w e a r e t a lk i n g b e t w e e n … Page 142 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS M EM ELA: Management and we were shocked at that time … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: A n d I e x p la i n e d w h y w e w e r e s h o c k e d . I t is b e c a u s e u s u a ll y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS M EM ELA: The Board when they are not happy … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : D o n o t e x p l a i n a g a in . M S M E M E L A : O h . O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d w h e n - if y o u s a y l o o k w e m i g h t n o t h a v e a g r e e d w i th t h e d e c is io n , b u t t h e B o a r d h a d m a d e t h e d e c is i o n a n d s o m e o f t h e d e c is i o n s t h a t a r e m a d e b y t h e B o a r d w e a s m a n a g e m e n t j u s t h a v e t o liv e w i t h a n d t h a t - th a t I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d , but I … M S M E M E L A : O h . I t h o u g h t I w a s m a k in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d i d n o t - I d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d … MS M EM ELA: Oh. I did … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a c t in g i n th e b e s t in t e r e s t o f th e o r g a n i s a t i o n … M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h a t c o n n e c t io n . M S M E M E L A : J a . O k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS MEMELA: No. I - I … Page 143 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : M e a n t i t t h a t w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . MS MEMELA: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n i t w a s r e c o r d e d in t h e m i n u t e s t h a t y o u r e p o r t e d t h a t S A AT M a n a g e m e n t s u p p o r te d t h e B o a r d ’s d e c is io n to a p p o i n t A A R , b e c a u s e i t w a s j u s ti fi a b l e . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e w h e n I r e a d t h a t i t s u g g e s ts t o m e t h a t 10 you devaluated the reasons given by the Board and you regarded them a s j u s t if i a b l e . Is t h a t n o t t h e c o r r e c t r e a d i n g ? M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a ir. O f c o u r s e lik e i t w i ll - i t w il l b e b a s e d o n t h e in t e r p r e ta t io n o f w h a t t h e r e a s o n s o f t h e B o a r d w e r e a t t h e t i m e a n d o f c o u r s e t h e B o a r d h a d s a i d t h e r is k s t h a t w e h a d r a is e d - th a t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s l o w b a l li n g in s o m e p a r t s o f th e s p a r e s a n d t h e n a ls o - I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t o t h e r r is k s w e r e in t e r m s o f t h e fa c t th a t A A R w a s n o t - d i d n o t h a v e a f o o t p r in t in A fr ic a . T h e r e f o r e - j a , b u t l e t - t h e r e w e r e li s ts t h a t w e r e - w e r e lis t e d b y C F S T a n d m a n a g e m e n t. 20 Ye s . S o w h e n - I th in k w h e n th e - t h e m a n a g e m e n t s a t a n d d is c u s s e d w e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t o k a y. I th in k w e - w e t h o u g h t t h is c o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e th in g t h a t w a s g o in g t o b e managed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h o u g h t t h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g e a r l ie r o n t h a t t h e Page 144 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 - y o u w e r e a ll s h o c k e d a t t h e d e c i s i o n t a k e n b y t h e m a n a g e m e n t … MS M EM ELA: The Board. C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h e B o a r d . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry … MS MEMELA: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: A n d my u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t t h e d e c is io n y o u w e r e t a lk in g a b o u t w a s th e d e c i s i o n t h a t A A R b e a p p o i n te d . Wa s I c o r r e c t i n u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u r e v id e n c e li k e th a t ? T h a t th e d e c is io n t h a t s h o c k e d 10 y o u w a s t h e B o a r d ’s d e c is io n t o a p p o i n t A A R . Was I correct u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t ? M S M E M E L A : Th a t - j a . T h a t - t h a t w a s t h e B o a r d ’s d e c i s i o n to a w a r d - o r m a k e a d e c is i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : To a w a r d t h e r e a n d t h e r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : B e c a u s e u s u a l ly t h e y s e n d - li k e I e v e n s a i d t h e r e is n o le g i s l a ti o n a g a i n s t t h is o r t h e r u l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S M E M E L A : B u t l ik e I m e a n w e w e r e u s e d t o t h e B o a r d … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s a p r a c ti c e ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS MEMELA: W e w e r e u s e d to t h e B o a r d w h e n th e y a r e n o t h a p p y a b o u t a c e r t a i n s u b m is s i o n - a b o u t a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . T h e y - t h e y w il l Page 145 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 send it back for work or maybe say approved subject to … CHAIRPERSON: Subject to, ja. M S M E M E L A : Ye s - o r d e c li n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t - d i d - d i d y o u m e a n t h a t y o u d id n o t h a v e y o u w e r e n o t s h o c k e d b y t h e f a c t th a t t h e B o a r d s a i d t h e t e n d e r s h o u ld go to AAR. What you were shocked about - what - what shocked you w a s t h a t t h e B o a r d d i d n o t s a y w e a r e h a p p y t h a t t h e te n d e r s h o u l d g o to AAR, but we are sending it back to management to do the f o r m a l i ti e s ? 10 M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a ir. I a m - I a m g o i n g t o r e p e a t . I s a i d I a m we - we were shocked … C H A I R P E R S O N : By w h a t ? MS MEMELA: T h a t th e B o a r d h a d m a d e a n i m m e d i a t e d e c is i o n to award. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS MEMELA: R e m e m b e r t h e - th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is m a d e b y t h e - the … CHAIRPERSON: Management. M S M E M E L A : C F S T a n d t h e n th r o u g h m a n a g e m e n t u n ti l i t g e ts t o t h e 20 Board … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MS MEMELA: A n d - a n d w h e n th e C F S T m a k e s th a t w h a t t h e - th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S M E M E L A : I t i s b a s e d o n - i t i s b a s e d o n t h e e v a lu a ti o n … Page 146 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S M E M E L A : A n d s a t is f ie d a n d … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: Ye s . S o w h e n th e B o a r d m a d e t h a t d e c is io n w e w e r e s h o c k e d w i th t h a t , b e c a u s e w e - w e - li k e w e w e r e n o t u s e d to … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u s h o c k e d b y t h e fa c t th a t t h e B o a r d m a d e a d e c is i o n t h a t w e n t a g a in s t m a n a g e m e n t ’s r e c o m m e n d a t i o n . 10 M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t s h o c k e d y o u ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s . W e w e r e s h o c k e d a b o u t th a t C h a ir. T h e f a c t t h a t i t w a s a g a i n s t th e C F S T r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d m a n a g e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: But how … MS MEMELA: But … CHAIRPERSON: H o w - h o w w o u l d y o u b e o n e o f th o s e w h o w e r e s h o c k e d i f a t t h e m e e t i n g y o u s a id y o u - S A AT M a n a g e m e n t s u p p o r t e d t h a t d e c is i o n ? M S M E M E L A : N o . T h is w a s n o t t h e s a m e m e e ti n g C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MS M EM ELA: Remember … C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t th e s a m e m e e ti n g ? M S M E M E L A : N o . I s a i d th is is th e m e e t i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. O k a y. M S M E M E L A : T h e m e e ti n g f o r th e B o a r d w a s o n Page 147 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e 9 t h . MS M EM ELA: 9 May … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . T h a t i s - th a t is f in e . M S M E M E L A : A n d t h e n t h a t o n e w a s o n - w a s o n th e 1 5 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M S M E M E L A : S o t h a t f o l lo w e d a f te r t h e B o a r d d e c i s i o n . S o i t w a s … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d ta k e n p l a c e ? MS MEMELA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S M E M E L A : I t w a s n o t s o m e t h in g th a t w a s s a i d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S M E M E L A : O n th e s a m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o b y 1 5 J u n e h a d y o u s a ti s f i e d y o u r s e l f a b o u t t h e ju s t i fi a b i li ty o f t h e ir r e a s o n s ? M S M E M E L A : H a d I s a ti s f i e d … 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll th e a n s w e r c a n o n ly b e y e s I h a d o r n o I h a d not. M S M E M E L A : O k a y. N o . I h a d n o t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is c r is p . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . S o d i d t h e m i n u t e s n o t c o r r e c tl y r e c o r d t h e n w h a t y o u r e p o r t e d t o th e m e e ti n g ? Page 148 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: O k a y C h a ir. W h e n y o u s u p p o r t i t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly mean you agree … C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) . MS MEMELA: W i t h th a t p e r s o n . Ex a c t ly. When - when management says we support … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS MEMELA: T h e B o a r d d e c is i o n , b e c a u s e th e r e is n o th in g y o u c a n change. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 10 M S M E M E L A : T h e y t o o k t h a t d e c is i o n . T h e ir - t h e i r s e n i o r p o w e r a n d e v e n i f m a y b e w e - w e h a d s h o w n o u r d is s a tis f a c ti o n o r m a y b e o u r - o u r d is a p p r o v a l . in s u b o r d i n a t io n . Maybe I w il l be s i t ti n g here being charged for I d o n o t k n o w, b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g s u p p o r t i n g d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n y o u a g r e e w it h h o w t h e d e c is i o n h a s b e e n t a k e n . I t m e a n s li k e y o u r e s p e c t a u t h o r i t y … CHAIRPERSON: Well I … M S M E M E L A : B u t a t - a t th e s a m e ti m e C h a ir I a m n o t s a y i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS MEMELA: 20 I h a v e - I h a d a t th a t ti m e w h e n w e w e r e s a y in g w e s u p p o r t e d - w h a t - s a t is fi e d … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev a lu a t e d . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u h a d n o t e v a lu a t e d … M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t w h e n i n th is m e e ti n g y o u s a i d Page 149 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 t h e S A AT M a n a g e m e n t s u p p o r t e d t h e B o a r d ’s d e c is io n . MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e s a y i n g t h a t t h a t d i d n o t m e a n - y o u a r e n o t m e a n i n g t h a t t h e S A AT M a n a g e m e n t a g r e e d w i th t h e d e c i s i o n ? MS MEMELA: Ye s C h a ir, b e c a u s e I - I th i n k e v e n if I h a d s a i d I d is a g r e e . T h e r e w a s a b s o l u t e ly n o t h i n g t h a t I w a s g o in g to d o . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll y o u s e e I - I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e w h e n y o u s a y i f y o u s a y y o u s u p p o r t. Yo u d o n o t m e a n y o u a g r e e . I t h o u g h t if y o u s u p p o r t s o m e t h i n g . I t m e a n s y o u a g r e e w it h it . I w o u l d 10 understand if you said - if you said m a n a g e m e n t - t h e S A AT M a n a g e m e n t w il l i m p le m e n t t h e B o a r d ’s d e c is io n … MS MEMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i m p l e m e n ti n g d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n y o u agree with it. MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. CHAIRPERSON: I t m i g h t j u s t m e a n , y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h e r e is n o t h i n g y o u c a n d o , y o u r jo b i s n o w t o i m p le m e n t, n o t t h a t th e d e c is io n h a s b e e n m a d e b u t i f y o u s a y y o u s u p p o r t , th a t s u g g e s ts t o m e th a t y o u a r e h a p p y w i t h t h e d e c is io n . 20 MS MEMELA: B u t t h e d e c is i o n , C h a ir, w a s m a d e o n t h e 9 t h o f M a y a n d t h is m e e ti n g w a s o n t h e 1 5 t h o f J u l y a n d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: B u t i t c o u ld h a v e b e e n m a d e th e y e a r b e fo r e b u t i f y o u d id n ’t a g r e e w i t h i t y o u w o u l d s ti ll n o t w a n t to s a y y o u s u p p o r t i t ? M S M E M E L A : T h e n th e o n ly w a y t h a t I c o u l d h a v e s h o w n m y, m a y b e , d is a g r e e m e n t w i ll b e i f th e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e s e n t b a c k to C F S T a n d Page 150 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 t h e n w e w o u l d h a v e s t o o d o u r g r o u n d m a y b e a n d s a i d , o k a y w e s til l r e c o m m e n d i n g [ in d i s ti n c t ] b a s e d o n t h e s e g r o u n d s th e n s h o u l d t h e b o a r d s h o u ld d e c i d e o th e r w is e t h e n i t ’s u p t o t h e B o a r d , s o t h e y to o k the decision then and there. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, Ms Hofmeyr? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u , le t ’s m o v e th e n t o y o u r r o le i n th e c o n tr a c t n e g o t ia t io n s M s M e m e la if w e m a y, I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d i n th o s e c o n t r a c t n e g o ti a ti o n s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MS MEMELA: 10 C h a ir, i n v o l v e m e n t v e r s u s a t te n d i n g th e f ir s t c o n t r a c t n e g o ti a ti o n w h e r e a ll p a r ti e s , lik e b e t w e e n S A AT a n d A A R / J M s i t ja … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u s a y li m i t e d in v o l v e m e n t? M S M E M E L A : L i m i t e d i n v o lv e m e n t , y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: O k a y. Ye s b e c a u s e a f t e r th a t t h e n t h e n e g o ti a ti o n w a s n o t – I w a s n o t i n v o l v e d i n th e n e g o ti a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A m o n g s t t h e t e a m w h o w e r e n e g o ti a ti n g w e r e M s M b e k i a n d M r K e n n y is th a t c o r r e c t ? MS MEMELA: 20 Ye s Ms M b e k i fr o m t h e l e g a l fr a m e w o r k p o i n t o f v ie w a n d Mr K e n n y w a s t h e r e to g u id e i n t e r m s o f – i t’s ju s t th a t I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h o e x a c t ly w e r e t h e r e b u t w a s t h e r e t o g u id e in t e r m s o f t h e t e c h n ic a l s i d e o f t h i n g s y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms M b e k i h a s p r o v i d e d a n a ff i d a v i t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d i t’s b e e n in c l u d e d i n y o u r b u n d l e , s h e - le t m e t a k e y o u t o i t , i t ’s in D D 2 5 B a n d i t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 4 - 6 - 4 . Page 151 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s is a n a ff id a v i t o f M s M b e k i w h o in d i c a t e s in i t t h a t s h e w a s i n v o l v e d in t h e n e g o t i a t i o n s b u t I’ d lik e t o p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f h e r a ff id a v i t w h ic h i s a t p a g e 4 - 6 - 7 . MS MEMELA: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : At paragraph 12 there page 4-6-7 Ms Mbeki in d i c a t e s t h e f o l lo w in g , a n d I ’l l r e a d i t i n t o t h e r e c o r d , “ G iv e n th e c o m p l e x it y a n d t e c h n ic a l n a t u r e o f t h e c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t s e r v ic e s A d v o c a te M e m e l a e s t a b li s h e d a te a m o f p e o p l e t o ta k e p a r t in t h e r e v i e w a n d n e g o t ia t io n o f th e s a i d 10 a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e n s h e g o e s o n a n d s h e s a y s , t h e s a id t e a m c o n s i s te d o f t h e f o l l o w in g o ffic i a ls ” , A n d t h e n t h e r e ’s a l is t o f a n u m b e r o f o ff ic ia ls a n d s h e c o n c l u d e s th a t p a r a g r a p h to s a y, “ T h e S A AT t e a m w a s u n d e r t h e l e a d e r s h i p o f A d v o c a te M e m e l a w i th t h e a s s is t a n c e o f M ik e K e n n y in t h e ir c a p a c i t ie s a s S A AT e x e c u ti v e a n d e x e c u tiv e c o m m i t t e e m e m b e r s ” , D o y o u h a v e a n y r e a s o n t o d is p u t e w h a t M s M b e k i s a y s th e r e a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t y o u w e r e l e a d in g t h is S A AT t e a m ? 20 MS MEMELA: L e a d in g t h e S A AT t e a m t h r o u g h o u t t h e n e g o ti a ti o n o r what? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s s h e s a id y o u e s t a b li s h e d th e t e a m a n d t h e n you led the team. MS MEMELA: I s u s p e c t t h a t m a y b e s h e d id n o t p u t th e d a t e b u t I k n o w t h a t a s s h e s ta t e s h e r e , t h is is th e t e a m C h a ir t h a t w a s o n th a t Page 152 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 fir s t d a y t h a t I’ m ta lk in g a b o u t b e c a u s e w e h a d n o ti c e d t h a t p e o p l e a r e c o m i n g fr o m A R w h e r e t h e y h a d s e n io r p e o p l e l ik e Vi c e Pr e s i d e n ts a n d a l l th a t , s o w e a t te n d e d o n th is o n e , s o i t w a s n o t t h r o u g h o u t t h e n e g o ti a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u r e m a in t h e l e a d e r o f t h e te a m t h r o u g h o u t e v e n i f y o u d i d n o t a t t e n d e v e r y m e e ti n g ? MS MEMELA: T h e l e a d e r h o w C h a ir, w h e r e I n e g o t ia t e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: Here she says, “ T h e S A AT t e a m w a s u n d e r t h e l e a d e r s h i p o f A d v o c a te Memela”, 10 Is t h a t p a r t c o r r e c t ? MS MEMELA: Ye s a n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is s h e ’s ta lk in g a b o u t th a t fir s t d a y. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: A t t h a t p a r tic u la r m e e t in g ? Ye s th a t fir s t d a y y e s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e – s h e s a y s y o u e s t a b l is h e d a t e a m a n d s h e g iv e s t h e n a m e s o f p e o p l e t h e r e is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s p e o p l e w h o w i ll b e r e p r e s e n t in g c e r t a i n s e c ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: 20 MS MEMELA: J a o v e r a c e r ta i n p e r i o d o f t h e n e g o t ia t io n s is n ’ t i t ? O v e r a c e r ta i n p e r i o d b u t f o r m e I o n ly p a r t ic ip a t e d o n t h a t fir s t d a y j a . CHAIRPERSON: J a b u t w o u ld t h o s e p e o p l e n o t b e r e p o r ti n g t o y o u o v e r th a t p e r io d ? M S M E M E L A : N o , n o t h e y w il l n o t b e r e p o r ti n g t o m e b e c a u s e t h e y w i ll b e – fo r i n s ta n c e W e ll in g to n N i s w a … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 153 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: W h o w o u ld th e y b e r e p o r ti n g t o a b o u t p r o g r e s s i n th e n e g o ti a ti o n s ? MS MEMELA: P r o g r e s s , lik e h o w f a r is t h e n e g o t ia t io n s ? CHAIRPERSON: J a t o s a y w e h a d a m e e ti n g th e s e p e o p le a r e b e in g d i ff ic u l t n o w o r t h i s a n d t h a t o r a n y th i n g lik e t h a t? MS MEMELA: T h e r e ’s n e v e r b e e n t h a t k i n d o f p r o g r e s s r e p o r ti n g C h a ir, t h a t o k a y t h e y r e p o r t to N o n t s a s a n o w o k a y t h i s is w h e r e w e a r e a n d s t u ff , m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t o n c e t h e c o n tr a c t is b e i n g n e g o t ia t e d p e o p l e a r e in d e p e n d e n t t o p l a y t h e i r r o l e a s m a n a g e m e n t b e c a u s e a l l 10 t h e s e p e o p le t h a t w e s e e h e r e t h e y w e r e p a r t o f m a n a g e m e n t e x c e p t – w e ll [ in d i s ti n c t ] w a s a s p e c i a l is t a n d S t a n Vo s lo o . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, Ms H o f m e y r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms Mbeki says that you were not only in a tt e n d a n c e a t th e f ir s t m e e ti n g , s h e s a y s y o u w e r e in a t t e n d a n c e a t t h e s e c o n d s e t o f m e e ti n g s a s w e ll , w e c a n fi n d th a t a t p a g e 4 - 7 - 0 a n d a t paragraph 18 she says, “ I d o n o t r e m e m b e r th e e x a c t d a t e o f t h e s e c o n d s e t o f m e e ti n g s b u t i t a ls o to o k p l a c e i n J u n e 2 0 1 6 , i t to o k p l a c e o v e r tw o d a y s , I d o n o t r e m e m b e r r e c e iv i n g a m e e ti n g 20 in v i ta t io n f o r t h is m e e ti n g a n d it d o e s n o t a p p e a r i n m y d i a r y b u t I c o n f ir m t h a t I d id a t te n d t h e m e e t i n g . I was called to t h e m e e ti n g b y E v e l y n F a l le t t ” , E v e ly n F a l l e tt is th a t S A AT r e p r e s e n t a t iv e or an r e p r e s e n t a tiv e ? MS MEMELA: Is a S A AT r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s h e ’s a c t u a l ly a s p e c ia li s t Page 154 of 217 AAR 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And she goes on and says, “ I w a s c a l le d t o t h e m e e t in g b y E v e ly n F a l le t t w h o s a id th a t A d v o c a t e M e m e l a h a d s e n t h e r t o c a ll m e . I t is a t t h is m e e ti n g th a t th e d r a ft c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t a g r e e m e n t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o t h e S A AT t e a m b y t h e J M A A R t e a m , i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll t h e f o l lo w in g te a m m e m b e r s w e r e p r e s e n t o n t h e fi r s t d a y o f t h a t m e e t in g ” , S o th a t ’s t h e s e c o n d s e t o f m e e ti n g s o v e r t w o d a y s , i t to o k p l a c e i n J u n e , d o e s t h is h e l p j o g y o u r m e m o r y ? 10 MS MEMELA: C h a ir I f e e l th a t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e w e c a n t a k e n o t e o f th e fa c t t h a t s h e s t a r ts t h a t s e n t e n c e , “i f I r e m e m b e r w e l l ” . MS MEMELA: N o C h a ir I f e e l th a t i f I s h o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d a R u l e 3 . 3 in t h is … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: I t ’s been in your bundle since la s t week…[intervenes]. MS MEMELA: N o , n o th e R u le 3 . 3 , I ’ m n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t th e b u n d l e I’ m t a lk in g a b o u t th e R u l e 3 . 3 w h e r e I ’ m s u p p o s e d to r e s p o n d t o – w h e n s o m e b o d y is t a lk i n g a b o u t m e a n d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o y o u g e t a 3 . 3 M s M e m e la w h e n t h e r e ’s a w i t n e s s w h o s e e v i d e n c e is g o i n g t o b e p r e s e n t e d w h o i m p l ic a te s y o u . T h i s i s t h e e v i d e n c e o f a w i tn e s s w h o is ta lk i n g a b o u t , n o t w h o s e g i v i n g o r a l e v i d e n c e , w h o s e a ff id a v i t i s a d m i t t e d p r o v is i o n a ll y a n d w h o ’s j u s t t a lk in g a b o u t w h o a t t e n d e d m e e ti n g s . MS MEMELA: N o b u t C h a ir, h e r e th e a ffi d a v i t s a y s I w a s t h e le a d e r o f Page 155 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 t h e n e g o t i a t i o n a n d I h a v e l e d t h e n e g o t i a ti o n t h r o u g h o u t , I ’ m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t b e c a u s e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: O k a y w e ll y o u s e e t h e r e h a v e b e e n … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. B e c a u s e I’ m n o t s u r e e v e n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: H a n g o n , h a n g o n , M s M e m e l a , th e r e h a v e b e e n is s u e s w h e r e p e o p l e h a v e s a i d t h e C o m m is s i o n i s b o th e r in g t h e m b y s e n d i n g t h e m R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s w h e n t h e y a r e n o t i m p l ic a te d b y w i t n e s s e s b u t t h e C o m m i s s io n h a s s a i d , y o u k n o w, s o m e ti m e s i t ’s c l e a r t h a t s o m e b o d y ’s j u s t b e e n m e n ti o n e d a s i n n o t b e in g i m p l ic a t e d i n 10 a n y th in g b u t s o m e ti m e s d i ff ic u l t t o s a y a n d t h e r e f o r e j u s t t o b e o n t h e s a f e s i d e s o m e t i m e s th e y s e n d . S o – b u t i t ’s t r u e to s a y, y o u k n o w, t h e le g a l te a m n e e d s t o t a k e a v i e w w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y ’s n a m e b e i n g m e n ti o n e d i s s u ff ic i e n t t o b e i m p li c a t e d b u t I th o u g h t M s H o f m e y r w a s m a k i n g t h e p o i n t th a t th e B u n d l e w a s m a d e a v a i la b le t o Ms M e m e l a s o m e ti m e b a c k ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , s o M s M e m e la r e c e iv e d t h e f u l l s e t o f h e r b u n d l e s w h e n s h e a p p e a r e d f o r h e r e v i d e n c e o n Fr i d a y, s o t h is h a s b e e n in t h e r e s i n c e t h e n . Th e s e c o n d p o i n t i s t h a t , a s y o u ’v e in d i c a t e d C h a ir, a l l t h a t h a p p e n s i n M s M b e k i’s a ff id a v it a t t h i s p o i n t , is s h e ’s 20 t a lk in g a b o u t w h o w a s a tt e n d i n g m e e ti n g s a t w h a t p o i n t . T h a t ’s o n i t ’s f a c e , c e r ta in ly t h e v ie w o f th e le g a l t e a m w a s t h a t , t h a t d i d n o t i m p l ic a t e M s M e m e l a . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s a r i s i n g f r o m h e r e v id e n c e th a t t h e r e s e e m s t o b e a d is p u t e b e t w e e n h e r a n d Ms M b e k i b u t t h a t i s o n ly Page 156 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 s o m e t h i n g th a t w e l e a r n i n th e c o u r s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e i t is a s p o s s i b le t h a t w h e n I p u t to M s M e m e l a , d i d y o u l e a d i t, s h e m i g h t h a v e s a i d y e s , s h e m i g h t h a v e c o n f ir m e d h a v in g b e e n a t m o r e t h a n o n e m e e ti n g b u t i t ’s i n th e c o u r s e o f th e e v id e n c e th a t s h e s a y s i t w a s o n ly a t o n e m e e ti n g a n d t h e n I d r a w h e r a t te n ti o n t o t h e d i ff e r e n t v e r s i o n that Ms Mbeki has. Th e r e ’s n o r e a s o n w h y Ms M e m e l a c a n ’ t t e ll s u s s h e d is a g r e e s o r th e b a s is f o r w h y s h e d is a g r e e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 A n d s o I s u b m i t t h a t w e c o n ti n u e t o l o o k a t M s M b e k i’s a ff id a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , M s M e m e la ? M S M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a i r I j u s t w a n t t o p o in t o u t , I s e e t h a t e v e r y ti m e th e r e is a c o m p la i n t fr o m t h e W i t n e s s , M s H o f m e y r r a is e s t h e p o i n t, c o r r e c tly fr o m h e r p e r s p e c t iv e to s a y, y o u h a v e h a d t h is b u n d l e s in c e F r i d a y b u t le t u s b e r e a lis t i c , t h e r e is n o h u m a n p e r s o n w h o c a n b e a b l e t o g o t h r o u g h e a c h a n d e v e r y i t e m o f th e s e b u n d le s i f t h e s e b u n d l e s w e r e g iv e n t o a p e r s o n o r o n F r i d a y a n d I’ m n o t w a s ti n g ti m e C h a ir, I ’ m j u s t p u t t in g i t o n r e c o r d , e v e n m y s e l f , e v e r s i n c e I c a m e in b a c k fr o m C a p e To w n I s ta r t e d c o n s u lt i n g , fir s t o n t h e v i d e o s , a n d I 20 o n ly h a d th r e e h o u r ’s s l e e p . Ye s t e r d a y I h a d tw o h o u r ’s s l e e p b e c a u s e w e a r e r e c e iv i n g … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I h a d , o n ly fo u r. M S M B J A N WA : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n , m a y b e y o u e v e n s l e e p l e s s t o b e h o n e s t b u t a l l I ’ m t r y i n g t o s a y – I ’ m s a y i n g ir r e s p e c tiv e o f h o w li t tl e w e s le e p , th e s e d o c u m e n t s r e m a i n v o lu m i n o u s . Page 157 of 217 S o i t is a b i t , m a y b e – I 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 u n d e r s t a n d fr o m th e p o s i ti o n s h e c o m e s fr o m b e c a u s e s h e is n o t i n o u r p o s i ti o n . Fo r i n s t a n c e , a n d I j u s t a l s o w a n t t o p u t i t o n r e c o r d h e r e , i f y o u l o o k a t t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e e v id e n c e is b e i n g p r e s e n te d o n t h e fir s t d a y i t w il l g o o n G P U ’s it is le f t , a g a in o n t h e s e c o n d d a y it g o e s b a c k to t h e G P U ’s . E v e n f o r m e to c o n c r e ti s e d th e e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e i t is b e i n g p r e s e n t e d i n s u c h a ju m b l e d m a n n e r, i t ’s g o in g t o b e a p r o b l e m a n d I’ m r a is in g t h e s e is s u e s n o w s o th a t w h e n w e c o m p la in la t e r, w e h a v e p l a c e d th e m o n r e c o r d C h a ir, t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir M s M e m e l a , u n t il F r i d a y m o r n i n g w a s n o t – h e r p u b l ic in d ic a t i o n w a s t h a t s h e w a s n ’ t g o i n g to b e a p p e a r i n g o n t h e m o r n i n g o f Fr i d a y t h a t i s th e b a c k g r o u n d t o w h y t h e b u n d le is g iv e n t o h e r o n Fr i d a y m o r n i n g a n d i t’s s in c e t h a t p o in t t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a v a i la b le a c c e s s t o i t . I f u lly u n d e r s t a n d M s M b a n jw a ’s p o i n t t h a t t h e d o c u m e n ts a r e v o l u m i n o u s , t h e y a r e w e ’v e h a d t o g e t o n t o p o f th e m s i m il a r ly a n d d e a l w it h th in g s a t q u i t e a r a t e a s a d d i t io n a l s t a t e m e n ts – f o r e x a m p l e , M s M e m e l a ’s c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n a p p l ic a ti o n s , r e s p o n s e s c a m e in , i n th e c o u r s e o f l a s t w e e k . I d o n ’ t i n t e n d t o b e la b o u r th e p o i n t t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o a s p e c ts o f M s M b e k i ’s a ffi d a v i t th a t I ’d lik e to p u t 20 t o M s M e m e l a , i f s h e b e l ie v e s s h e ’s n o t i n a p o s i t io n to a n s w e r t h e m , s h e c a n g iv e t h a t a n s w e r b u t i t’s r e a l ly o n e o r t w o f u r t h e r m a t t e r s , i f y o u g iv e m e l e a v e t o s o ? CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, n o th a t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d th a t Ms M e m e l a ? Page 158 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: Ye s C h a i r I w i ll t a k e t h e .. . [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I f y o u a r e n o t a b l e to a n s w e r, y o u , d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r o r y o u n e e d t i m e t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y, y o u k n o w. MS MEMELA: C h a ir I w il l t a k e th e q u e s t i o n b u t I f e e l t h a t – r e m e m b e r I w a s a ff ir m e d t h a t th is w a s th e fa c t - f i n d in g m is s i o n b u t a s w e c o n ti n u e a n d w i t h a l l t h e s e n e w a ffi d a v i ts c o mi n g t o m e a n d b e f o r e g e t ti n g t h e R u l e 3 . 3 t h a t y o u m e n t io n e d , th a t y o u ’ r e b e i n g t h e l e a d e r o f th e n e g o ti a ti o n , I f e e l e v e r y t h in g a b o u t t h is A R J M i s b e i n g p o i n t e d a t m e , t h a t – b e c a u s e , l ik e I ’ m b e i n g a s k e d a b o u t l ik e m y s u p p o r t fo r th e 10 B o a r d , w h a t d i d I t h in k a n d s tu ff a n d w h il e I a m s t il l f o c u s i n g o n t h a t h o w d o I – a n d t h e n t h e r e is h e r e th a t I’ m le a d i n g th e n e g o ti a ti o n . S o t h a t ’s w h y I w a s c o n fu s e d t h a t l e a d in g t h e n e g o t ia t io n , d o e s i t m e a n t h a t I ’ m t h e o n e w h o s e r u n n i n g w i t h th e n e g o ti a ti o n d is c u s s in g t h e m w i t h t h e o t h e r l a w y e r fr o m t h e o th e r s i d e , o r w a s M s M b e k i t h e o n e w h o w a s d r a f t in g a n d n e g o ti a ti n g t h e a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e t h a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t w h e n G u g u w a s b r o u g h t i n S A AT … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll le t m e s a y s o m e t h i n g t o y o u a b o u t t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r y o u w e r e l e a d i n g t h e n e g o t ia t i o n s o r t h e t e a m , t h a t’s w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d M s M b e k i ’s a ff id a v i t t o s a y b u t i f y o u a r e a s k e d t h e 20 q u e s t io n , w e r e y o u t h e l e a d e r o f t h a t t e a m , y o u g i v e n a n a n s w e r b a s e d on your own concept of the understanding of the concept of being a le a d e r. I f y o u s a y, a s f a r a s I ’ m c o n c e r n e d I w a s n o t th e l e a d e r o f t h a t t e a m b e c a u s e i f y o u lo o k a t t h e n u m b e r o f m e e ti n g s t h a t w e r e a t t e n d e d , I a t t e n d e d l e s s t h a n 2 0 % o f t h e m e e ti n g s a n d t h e p e o p le w e r e n o t r e p o r t in g t o m e . S o y o u g i v e y o u r o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g t o s a y, I d o n ’t Page 159 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 k n o w w h a t s h e h a s i n m i n d , n a m e l y, M s M b e k i b u t a s fa r a s I’ m c o n c e r n e d I w a s n o t t h e le a d e r, t h is w a s th e p o s i ti o n . MS MEMELA: Ye s , b e c a u s e u n t il n o w, C h a ir, I’ m l e a r n i n g a s i f m a y b e M s M b e k i w a s n o t i n d e p e n d e n t e n o u g h to d r a f t o r n e g o t ia t e o r r e v i e w t h e c o n tr a c t o n h e r o w n a n d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l , if a s fa r a s y o u k n o w, s h e w a s t h e l e a d e r o f t h e t e a m , t h e n y o u s h o u l d s a y, a s f a r a s I k n o w s h e w a s th e l e a d e r. I f i t was somebody else, you say so. MS MEMELA: 10 S h e w a s l e a d i n g t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s fr o m t h e l e g a l p o i n t o f v ie w. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: Ye s . A n d l ik e s h e w a s ta k i n g c a r e o f th e l e g a l fr a m e w o r k a n d I r e m e m b e r d u r i n g – a s I s a id t h a t I w a s t h e r e i n th e f ir s t m e e ti n g , a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y i t w a s p u t , lik e , i t w a s fo r h e r a n d th e la w y e r fr o m A R t o w o r k o n t h e t e m p l a te o f t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s g o in g to b e w o r k e d o n g o i n g f o r w a r d a n d t h e n o n c e t h a t is c le a r e d o u t , w i t h M i k e a n d o th e r p e o p l e th a t w e r e th e r e t h a t w il l b e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e t e c h n ic a l /c o m m e r c ia l p a r t o f t h e c o n tr a c t t h e n s h e w il l c o n ti n u e i n d e p e n d e n tl y w i t h t h e l e g a l te a m o f A R J M . J a s o k n o w i t ’s a s 20 if n o w it ’s – I d o n ’ t k n o w, m a y b e I ’ m in t e r p r e ti n g i t w r o n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o a ll I ’ m s a y in g i s t h a t ju s t b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y is s a y i n g s o m e t h i n g a b o u t y o u th a t is n o t tr u e , t h a t d o e s n ’ t m e a n i t s h o u l d b e a p r o b l e m , y o u c a n s a y th a t ’s n o t tr u e a t l e a s t o n m y u n d e r s t a n d in g , t h a t ’s n o t t h e p o s it i o n t h is is t h e p o s i ti o n a s f a r a s I’ m c o n c e r n e d . O k a y a lr ig h t , l e t’s m o v e o n . Page 160 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M s M b e k i r e f e r s t o th e s e c o n d d a y o f t h a t s e c o n d s e t o f m e e t in g s a t p a g e 4 - 7 - 3 a n d s h e i n d ic a te s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 5 t h e r e , th a t d u r i n g t h e c o n t r a c t n e g o t ia t io n p r o c e s s – t h i s is p a r a g r a p h 2 5 , t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f in s t a n c e s w h e r e th e r e w a s …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I s t h a t 2 5 o f h e r a ff id a v i t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 “there I n d e e d C h a ir a t p a g e 4 - 7 - 3 . were She says, a lot of i n s ta n c e s where there were d is a g r e e m e n t s b e tw e e n t h e S A AT t e a m a n d t h e J M A A R t e a m o n s o m e is s u e s , s o m e o f t h e d is a g r e e m e n ts w e r e s o b a d th a t I w a s a c c u s e d b y th e J M A A R t e a m o f d e li b e r a t e ly d e l a y in g t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d fr u s tr a ti n g t h e p r o c e s s . T h e y t o l d m e t h a t I k e e p o n r a is in g is s u e s a n d / o r c o n c e r n s w h ic h a r e a lr e a d y d is c u s s e d a n d a g r e e d to w i th t h e S A AT team. I w a s e v e n r e p o r t e d t o m y s u p e r i o r s f o r a ll e g e d l y fr u s tr a ti n g th e p r o c e s s a n d c a u s i n g a d is c o r d a m o n g t h e n e g o ti a ti n g t e a m . 20 I do not know when, what, how or to whom I was reported. I o n ly c a m e t o t h e r e a li s a t io n t h a t I w a s r e p o r te d w h e n Ms S h a b a la l a i n fo r m e d m e t h a t A d v o c a t e M e m e la s a i d s h e m u s t t e ll m e to c a l l h e r u r g e n t ly. Th is h a p p e n e d o n th e 2 n d d a y a n d a s I s t a t e d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 , A d v o c a te M e m e l a d i d n o t a tt e n d t h e m e e ti n g th a t d a y. U p o n r e c e iv i n g th e m e s s a g e Page 161 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 fr o m M s S h a b a la l a I c a ll e d A d v o c a t e M e m e l a , d u r i n g th e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n /d is c u s s i o n , A d v o c a te M e m e l a to ld m e t h a t s h e ’ d r e c e i v e d a c o m p l a in t , t h a t I k e e p o n r a i s i n g is s u e s w h ic h w e r e a lr e a d y d is c u s s e d b e f o r e I j o i n e d t h e te a m t h e previous day and that as a result of my conduct th e d is c u s s io n s w e r e t a k in g l o n g e r t h a n n e c e s s a r y. S h e a ls o to l d m e t h a t th is c o n c e r n w a s a ls o r a i s e d w i t h th e t h e n C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r o f S A AT w h o w a s a ls o t h e A c ti n g G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e , M r M u s a Z w a n e . 10 I a d m i tt e d t h a t I in d e e d h a d b e e n a le r t e d b y t h e te a m t h a t a l o t o f t h e is s u e s that I was raising were a lr e a d y raised, d is c u s s e d and r e s o l v e d th e p r e v i o u s d a y ” , D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n th a t M s M b e k i s a id y o u a n d she had? MS MEMELA: I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s h e g o e s o n a n d t a lk s a b o u t th e r e m a in d e r o f t h e n e g o t ia t io n s a n d h e r r o le in t h e m . S h e p a r t ic u l a r l y e x e r c is e s t h e p o i n t s in t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t s h e w a s fi g h t i n g f o r, b e in g r e t a i n e d a n d t h e n s h e t e ll s u s w h a t h a p p e n e d i n th e f in a l s i n g - o ff o f t h e a g r e e m e n t. 20 T h e r e a r e ju s t t w o a s p e c ts I’ d lik e t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n ti o n t o t h e r e , a n d f o r t h a t p u r p o s e s y o u ’l l h a v e to g o b a c k t o p a g e 4 - 7 - 2 a t p a r a g r a p h 2 3 . MS MEMELA: Page 4-7-2. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir I s e e Ms M b a n jw a w o u ld li k e to make a comment. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , M s M b a n j w a . Page 162 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 M S M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, it ’s n o t a n o b j e c t io n b u t I j u s t w a n t – m y a p o lo g ie s C h a ir, I ’ m s ti ll f a r. T h is is n o t a n o b j e c ti o n b u t b e c a u s e t h e i d e a is a fa c t fi n d i n g o f th is C o m m is s io n , I’ m j u s t d r a w i n g th e a tt e n ti o n o f M s H o f m e y r t o t h e f a c t t h a t s h e h a s r e a d fr o m t h i s p a r a g r a p h s e l e c t iv e ly a n d w i t h y o u r p e r m is s i o n C h a ir, I j u s t w a n t t o p o i n t o u t t h a t s h e m u s t r e a d th e p a r a g r a p h to th e e n d , b e c a u s e w h a t h a s b e e n le f t o u t is a ls o v e r y i m p o r ta n t a n d i f I c a n j u s t i n c lu d e i t q u ic k ly … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 H a n g o n th a t q u i te a p p r o p r ia t e f o r r e - e x a m in a ti o n w h e r e y o u s a y, y o u r – s h e m ig h t n o t b e a n o p p o n e n t i n a C o m m i s s io n s e t- u p b u t y o u p o in t it o u t i n r e - e x a m in a ti o n a n d y o u d ir e c t th e a tt e n ti o n o f th e w i t n e s s to t h e w h o le p a r t t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n r e a d . M S M B A N J WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, I d o n ’ t w a n t t o b e w r o n g o n t h is , I ju s t w a n t C h a ir t o t a k e i t i n to a c c o u n t in c o n d u c ti n g t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s . I a m t r y in g to a v o i d o b je c ti o n s b e c a u s e i t w a s te s t i m e n o w I’ m s a y i n g t o m y c o l l e a g u e , b e c a u s e i f m y c o ll e a g u e i s g o i n g t o r e a d d o c u m e n ts t a k e t h e p r e j u d ic ia l p a r t a n d l e a v e o u t th e fa v o u r a b l e p a r t , i t m e a n s t h e r e f o r e , t h a t w h e n I r e - e x a m i n e I’ m g o i n g t o t e c h n i c a ll y r e - e x a m in e o n e v e r y d o c u m e n t t h a t s h e h a s p r e s e n t e d t o th is C o m m is s i o n . 20 W h e r e a s i t w o u l d b e v e r y e a s y, i f f o r in s ta n c e , s h e c o u l d h a v e i n c lu d e d w h a t t h e a d m i s s io n is b e c a u s e if o n e l o o k s a t t h a t p a r a g r a p h i t s a y s t h a t Ms M e m e la c o m p la i n e d a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t M s M b e k i w a s c a u s i n g fr u s tr a ti o n b e c a u s e s h e w a s r e - v is it i n g t h i n g s t h a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n d o n e . B u t t h e r e ’s a v e r y i m p o r t a n t c a v e a t t o t h a t , it s a y s , “ I a d m i tt e d t h a t i n d e e d I h a v e b e e n e l e c t e d b y t h e t e a m t h a t a Page 163 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 lo t o f t h e is s u e s I w a s r a i s i n g w e r e a lr e a d y r a is e d , d is c u s s e d a n d r e s o l v e d th e p r e v i o u s d a y ’ , T h e r e f o r e , t h e r e w il l b e n o n e e d f o r m e t o r e - e x a m in e b e c a u s e t h e p a r a g r a p h it s e l f c o n t a i n s t h e c o n c e s s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u s a y b u t l e t ’s t r y – m a k e a n o t e a n d r a is e i t i n r e - e x a m i n a t io n , is s u e s l ik e th a t b e c a u s e t h e m o r e w e h a v e a n i n t e r r u p ti o n to t a l k a b o u t t h e m , th e m o r e t h e d e la y w h e r e a s if s h e e n d s u p n o t c o v e r i n g i t , I w il l a l l o w y o u t o c o v e r t h a t t o s a y, t h e r e i s a p a r t w h e r e s h e r e a d o n ly a c e r t a i n p a r t a n d l e ft o u t a c e r ta in 10 p a r t , th a t ’s i m p o r ta n t f o r t h e w i t n e s s ’s e v i d e n c e . S o m a k e a n o t e a n d I w i ll a l lo w y o u . M S M B A N J WA : making. C h a ir I ’ m n o t b e in g – t h is is t h e l a s t s t a t e m e n t I ’ m I a m s a y i n g C h a ir, i f t h e d o c u m e n t s p r e s e n t e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n b y Ms H o f m e y r w e r e r e a d i n t h e ir f u l ln e s s , i n c lu d i n g w h e r e t h e f u l ln e s s w il l r e v e a l t h e f a c t t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t s a r e n o t b l a mi n g M s M e m e l a t h a t w o u l d s a v e t i m e b e c a u s e t h e n I w o u ld n o t h a v e t o r e e x a m in e o n t h o s e d o c u m e n ts , lik e f o r i n s t a n c e , t h i s i s a v e r y c r is p example. H e r e is a d o c u m e n t w h e r e a n a c c u s a t io n i s b e i n g m a d e a g a in s t M s M e m e la , b u t t h a t a c c u s a ti o n h a s a lr e a d y, i n i t , a c o n c e s s io n 20 t h e n M s H o f m e y r d e l i b e r a t e ly d o e s n ’ t r e a d t h e c o n c e s s io n s o th a t s h e t a k e s o n ly t h e a c c u s a ti o n , w h ic h t h e r e f o r e m e a n s I’ m g o i n g t o w a s t e ti m e b e c a u s e t h e n I m u s t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e s h e m i g h t , f o r t h e q u e s ti o n th a t s h e w a s p o s i n g , s h e w il l t a l k fo r h e r s e l f , s h e m i g h t n o t h a v e s e e n t h a t p a r t a s p a r t ic u l a r ly i m p o r t a n t b u t y o u r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e w i t n e s s , m i g h t s e e i t ’s Page 164 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 importance. S o t h a t’s w h y I’ m s a y in g i t m i g h t h a v e n o t h a v e b e e n d e li b e r a t e b u t i t’s f i n e s h e ’ ll t a l k f o r h e r s e l f , b u t I’ m e m p h a s is in g th a t , m a k e a n o t e y o u g e t a c h a n c e w h e n y o u r e - e x a m in e t o s a y, l e t ’s g o t o t h a t p a g e , M s H o f m e y r r e a d o n ly u p t o t h i s p o i n t b e f o r e y o u a n s w e r e d , h e r e is a n o th e r p o i n t a n d t h e n t h e w i t n e s s c a n t h e n d e a l w i t h t h a t . M S M B A N J WA : CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u fo r y o u r p a t ie n c e . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: 10 C h a ir. Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e tr a n s c r ip t w il l b e a r o u t t h a t I r e a d th a t l a s t s e n te n c e o f th e p a r a g r a p h , I w a s a b s o l u te l y s c r u p u l o u s to e n s u r e th a t I r e a d t h e e n t ir e p a r a g r a p h 2 5 a n d I i n c lu d e d t h e la s t s e n t e n c e t h a t M s M b a n j w a h a s ju s t s a i d p u b l ic a l ly, I d e li b e r a te ly o m i t te d , I r e a d i t o u t, a n d th e tr a n s c r ip t , w h e n w e g e t i t t o m o r r o w w il l r e f le c t t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s t h e n m o v e to w h a t s h e s a y s a b o u t t h e a s p e c ts th a t s h e e m p h a s is e d i n th e c o u r s e o f t h e n e g o t ia t io n s . O n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t Ms M b e k i w a s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 20 M a y b e , M s H o f m e y r, I s e e w e ’r e a t h a l f p a s t t h r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I f w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o a d jo u r n a t f o u r, i t m i g h t w e l l b e t h a t w e s h o u ld t a l k n o w o r if w e a r e g o in g to a d j o u r n o r n o t . I know t h a t i t ’s b e e n d i ffi c u l t t o k e e p t o t h e t i m e fr a m e s t h a t w e w e r e a ll h o p i n g t o k e e p . H o w f a r a r e y o u fr o m fi n i s h i n g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I h a v e t w o m o r e p a g e s o f n o t e s to c o v e r. Page 165 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: A n d th a t s h o u l d – a b s e n t q u e s ti o n s fr o m m e a n d a s s u m i n g M s M e m e la g i v e s c r is p a n s w e r s a s s h e d id … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a n d t h e r e a r e n ’ t o b je c t i o n s a n d c o m m e n ts I w o u l d i m a g in e a b o u t t w e n t y m i n u te s . CHAIRPERSON: A b o u t t w e n t y m i n u te s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n I j u s t b e c l e a r, I’ m n o t s u g g e s ti n g b y m y a n s w e r t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d n ’ t b e in t e r r u p ti o n s , I ’ m j u s t e n d e a v o u r i n g 10 t o g iv e a ti m e fr a m e o n t h e o n l y b a s is I c a n , w h ic h is w h a t I c a n c o n tr o l . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o t h a t ’s f in e a n d t h e n o n c e y o u a r e d o n e , w h i c h it lo o k s li k e w i ll b e a r o u n d 4 o ’ c l o c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Have you and Ms Mbanjwa talked about what…[intervenes]. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: We have. W h a t c o u ld h a p p e n a ft e r t h a t , s u b j e c t t o my approval? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 I n d e e d , i t w a s a l w a y s s u b je c t t o y o u r a p p r o v a l C h a ir b u t I d id c o n f ir m w i t h M s M b a n jw a i f s h e a n d M s M e m e l a a r e i n a p o s i ti o n t o s ta y la t e r th a n f o u r, s h e d i d i n d ic a t e t o m e t h a t th e y w e r e , t h e y ’v e tr a v e ll e d to g e th e r s o th a t t h e y c a n b o t h r e m a i n to b e y o n d 4 o ’ c lo c k . I t w o u l d b e o u r s u g g e s ti o n t h a t w e d o u s e a d d it i o n a l t i m e , m y g r a v e c o n c e r n is t h a t w e h a v e n ’ t e v e n c o m m e n c e d M r N z e k o ’s e v i d e n c e t o d a y. S o m y p r o p o s a l w o u l d b e , I c o m p l e te b y fo u r, th e n w e m o v e t o Page 166 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 t h e r e - e x a m in a ti o n t h a t M s M b a n j w a w o u l d li k e t o c o n d u c t a n d w e t a k e t h a t a s fa r a s w e c a n . It would also be our suggestion tha t we try and star t a bit earlier tomorrow because it is a short day, so that we can ge t as far into Mr Ndzeku’s evidence as possible. Thos e are our proposals. CHAIRPERSON: We ll, we can go beyond fo ur, but unlike was it yesterday? Ja, unlike yesterday when I could have gone up to six I do no t think tha t I could go beyond five today. But the question arises if we can only go up to five, how much can we cover? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 10 We ll, Miss Mbanjwa ’s indication yesterday was that she would probably need abou t two hours for re-examination [intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: She said much more , she wanted a good day. I was the one [in tervenes]. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And you confine d her sorry. Apologies you absolutely righ t, bu t wha tever amoun ted time you permit it would be my suggestion that using an hour beyond 4 o ’clock to make some serious headway in the re-examination would be conducive [intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no, it would be. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Mr Ndzeku does need to star t to morrow in his evidence. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, how long is Mr Ndzeku likely to take once he has started? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: You know, Mr Ndze ku we do not have a state ment or a ffidavit from, so and we still have not got an a ffidavit that has been promised to us for a week from h is co-director in JM Avia tion . CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 167 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Bu t I was told by my learned friend that by lunch time it should have been coming through sometime this a fternoon . I do no t know if it has come through yet. Based on the areas that I proposed traversing with Mr Ndzeku, I should imagine half a day would be adequa te for his evidence. Tha t is why I a m particularly keen to star t tomorrow and hopefully finish. CHAIRPERSON: We ll, if we, if Miss Mbanjwa starts all tha t abou t, we can go up to five and I agree tha t whatever we can use should be used. Then if we start a t, I do not know if we could start a t nine, bu t maybe we can start 10 at half past nine. Then if it is another hour tha t takes to half past ten or depending when we start at let us say up to eleven. Tha t leaves us with very little time for Mr Ndzeku before I become unavailable. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Indeed. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So I have my reservations whether we would finish with Mr Ndzeku even if we started with him, and if we will not fin ish, if we are unlikely to fin ish it may well be that an alternative arrangemen t should be considered because he would have to come back anyway. And then attemp ts will be made to make sure tha t o n the day he comes back he finishes on tha t day bu t one can never be hu ndred percent sure about these 20 things. So tha t is what is going on in my mind rather than s tart with him tomorrow and no t finish . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Yes. Understood Ch air, indeed. The only challenge will be that we have an absolu tely full schedule next week. There will be no period within next week to slot him in . CHAIRPERSON: We ll, we previously talked on the basis tha t we would no t Page 168 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 sit on Friday. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: CHAIRPERSON: Correct. There may be a possibility that maybe we could sit from sometime about maybe after lunch or there about, but it may be that we might not need to do tha t if we can find anoth er day [in tervenes]. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Ano ther day CHAIRPERSON: With in Feb , when Mr Ndze ku can then come back. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: with Miss Me mela . 10 Chair why do I not do th is, why do we no t proceed I can then have engag ements with Mr Ndzeku’s legal team a t the conclusion o f today. Because whatever happens Mr Ndzeku’s not starting today and then we can come bac k to you with a proposal for his evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay le t us do tha t. ADV KATE HO FMEYR: So if we can then just continue to round this o ff. Miss Memela one o f the th ings tha t Miss Mbh eki says she was pushing for in the negotia tions, and you will find this at pa ge 472 at paragraph 23. Was the inclusion o f a penalties clause in favour of SAAT? Now we have looked at the con tract previously in the evidence and we had the evidence o f Mr Human about this . Tha t pena lties clause was not u ltimate ly incorporated in 20 the contract. Do you know what, it is a penalty clause in favour of SAAT. There is certainly a penalties clause that if SAAT does no t perfor m then JM or AAR have penalties levied against SAAT. But there is no concomitan t penalties clause against JM or AAR. Can you help us with insight as to why that proposal of Miss Mbheki’s was no t carrie d through in the contract? MS MEMELA: Proposal to which Chair? Page 169 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: In the course of the negotiations of the contract? I a m no t sure Chair because my understanding is tha t the only time when she was asked about why wa s the penalty clause not in the contract. She was asked by Airbus when I wa s Acting the Chief Procurement Officer a t SAA. And then she de fended and stated like which provision, tha t she had, but she had never to me said Boss, this is wha t happened. I was raising this poin t. It was kicked away or something like tha t. So I am no t aware of it. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And did you take any s teps to ensure in the 10 contract negotia tions that there would be a penalty clause in favour of SAAT? MS MEMELA: Me? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: Yes. Okay Chair, Cookie, Miss Mbheki when she negotia te and drafts and reviews contracts, she does that since like she has been, she was what, appointed specifically for tha t, she d oes tha t independently without me. So me taking a contract from her and checking it, like that was, that has never been a norm, like okay I must chec k and finalize even in her signoff form, sometimes when she fina lize a contract she takes it to certa in 20 people, not to me to sign it o ff, because remember now I will be, we will be doing a duplicate work. She is a lawyer, I am a lawyer, so I am yes. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So what steps d id you take in the contract negotiations to make sure that SAAT’s interes ts were protected? MS MEMELA: Okay I did not negotia te the contract Chair. The contract was negotiated by Miss Cookie Mbheki for leg al framework. Page 170 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: So you did not play a role in the negotiations? I d id not play a role except when that first day Chair where you said it was put on the projector and the n the provisions were put down of what should be in the contract and then like all the peop le that she listed in her a ffidavit were sitting there . We looked at the projec tor. It was not some thing that me , as her boss like would be , ja , because I know she was doing tha t, one thing I do not know, I do not micro manage . All the Se nior Managers tha t reported to me were doing their job independently, except when there is some thing they 10 need my support. Because my understanding she was quite strong and knowledgeable in terms o f nego tiating and I s howed her my support from the first day when we were sitting there , it w as I reme mber like she was supporting the view that maybe, in fact I supp orted her on that, the view tha t maybe the JV or maybe what the JM Avia tion should be an annexure to the contract. And the o ther poin t tha t I remember that she made , was like to make sure tha t the low-balling tha t the CFST had raised in terms of like AAR. She had put or she had forced AAR to agree to a certa in provision that talks to capping or putting like I mean ke eping fix the price until 2018 if I remember correctly. 20 So like those were the provisions like I mean she discussed with me and I supported her. So, I do not know maybe Miss Hofmeyr did no t understand our s tructure an d stu ff tha t certain things does not really come to me for my finalisation bec ause Miss Cookie Mbekhi is no t a junior lawyer. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: No , bu t she was ju nior to you in the s tructure of SAAT, is tha t correct? Page 171 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: She was junior to me bu t like I mean SAAT was heading her legal and contracts managemen t unit. According to me as H.O .D. Remember like I ac tually read the portfolios that I was heading . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So she reported to you but at no poin t prior to this agreement being concluded did you satis fy yourself as to its conten ts. Is that right? MS MEMELA: I am saying Chair, I mean I w as I gave her the independence to negotiate because I know her when she is not happy about something she will come to me in fact for like I mean ask if she needs my support. So that 10 is why I am saying like I am surprised with the issue of the penalties tha t she said she was pushing for penalties and then she was not allowed bu t like she is not saying by who did not allow h er I am surprised because this was raised by Airbus and she and the mee tin g was between myself her and Airbus and she had already moved to SAA a t that time . So she never raised th is as someth ing like she was no t allowed she had pushed for it in fact she defended that okay bu t, even if this is no t there still I mean there is th is provision tha t a re protecting SAAT. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So can I just ge t cle ar on the evidence you did not satisfy yourself as to the conten t o f the agre ement before it was signed on 20 the 7 t h of July 2016. Is that correct? MS MEMELA: I did no t check or maybe finalise the contract because it was not negotiated by me . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And do you know that Miss Mbekhi did no t get to check the contract e ither be fore it was signed? MS MEMELA: I do no t reme mber tha t. Page 172 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Her evidence at page 475 at paragraph 29 of DD25(B) was the following MS MEMELA: The page? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 475 it is a few pages on in her affidavit and I pick it up at paragraph 29. She says: “On the 7 t h o f July 2016 my plan was to arrange a meeting with the SAAT team members to g o through the agreement clause by clause as I usually do. I was not aware tha t the agreemen t had a lready been signed until abou t midday on 7 t h July 2016 when one of the 10 other SAAT team members informed me that the agreement had already been signed . I cannot remember whether was Mr. Vosloo or Mr. Kenny who informed me abou t the signing o f the contra ct. Upon hearing that the agreemen t is signed I the n stopped reviewing it. I did also not go ahead with the plan o f arranging a meeting with the o ther team members to further delibera te on the agreemen t because the said agreement had already been signed.” 20 Who arranged for the signing of the agreemen t Miss Memela? MS MEMELA: Chair, I would no t know reme mber the signing o f agreement share will be arranged by the person who was working on the agreemen t naturally. So I a m no t sure like who [in tervenes]. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So , it was no t Miss Mbekhi, who could it have been? Page 173 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: No, I do not know because like I am seeing this evidence now I do not know if she said she was not the one [intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: You would have expected h er to have been the one . She should have been the o ne because remember she was the one who was negotiating with the legal person from AAR so I do no t understand why at wha t poin t tha t [in tervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: And it seems strange that if she was the leader from the legal poin t of view in the nego tia tions o f the contract it seems s trange that while the leader legal team so to speak who was to advise whether the 10 contract is ready for sign ing while she was reviewing looking at the contract clause by clause somebody decided it should be signed. MS MEMELA: Ja ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: You have no knowled ge about tha t. I have no knowledge abou t th at. CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: She goes on in her affidavit to expla in the standard practice that she follows to ensure that there is proper review when she said she had no opportunity to do tha t. But, I take it tha t your evidence says you do not know how tha t signing was arranged. Is that correct? 20 MS MEMELA: Ja, I do not know Chair. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: I would like to pic k up on my final poin t before concluding aspects [in tervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: And tha t I a m sorry that ha s to be taken to also mean that you were not at the signing of the , d id not attend the signing of the agreement. Page 174 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: I do no t remember Chair can we if the contract is here can I be directed to it? CHAIRPERSON: I wan t to look at th is signature page. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Yes, certa inly. I just put it away, I a m sorry I have, where were we? Right, we were in CHAIRPERSON: The signatures are a t 489 490 491 is tha t right, or am I in on a different contract? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: There are two contr acts and I just wan t to be sure that we are no t in the wrong one. One is the Swissport and the other is the 10 components and I literally just have it in front of me . CHAIRPERSON: Oh . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: here we go. Le t me find it, Chair. Oh here we go, here we go, Alright sorry. Apologies. It is DD22(F) and you are not reflected on the signature page Miss Memela I w ill take you to it the agreement commences there at 2318 MS MEMELA: 2318? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: 2318 and you will fin d a signature page a t 2333 . Oh, which bundle? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: At DD22(F). 20 MS MEMELA: 22(F)? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: Yes. Ja, page? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: The signature page is two triple three 2333. There is no indica tion on tha t page tha t you were signatory to the agreemen t, do you see that? Page 175 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: I just want to go to the first ADV KATE HOFMEYR: CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the first page is 2318. It is interesting that the re were no witnesses to the signing of th is contract. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Indeed, Chair. The other th ing that is no teworthy. I will take you to some o f the clauses, the cla uses are very oddly numbered. If you go to for example to page 2325 where I am actually going to pick it up you have got a heading there for pricing a nd payment sorry a t 2325 you have got clause four there pricing and payment and then the first sub clause 10 is 4.23 . This is it is all over this agreemen t. CHAIRPERSON: Oh . Yes. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Which does seem to lend some credence to the notion that this was rushed towards the end b ecause these would have been points presumably tha t Miss Mbekhi would ha ve picked up on. So it is very strangely arranged. Miss Meme la I would like to take you nex t to 2325 because there is a particular clause there tha t is the last aspect I would like to deal with you in evidence. MS MEMELA: Hmm. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 20 MS MEMELA: Sorry, 23? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: Do you have 2325? 2325. Oh. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Miss Memela just b efore we get to this clause we dealt with Mr Kenny’s a ffidavit in the evide nce of Mr Human tha t was an affidavit where there was an implication in respect of you, and so you Page 176 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 received a 3-3 notice. Mr Kenny indicate d tha t a fter the con tract was concluded he attended a meeting with you a t which he requested to be given a copy of the full contract and you said to him he could only have the page relevant to him and he makes the allega tion that you had said tha t was to protect him. Do you have a response to that? MS MEMELA: Chair my understanding o f Mr Kenny’s affidavit, it was referring to the collaboration agreemen t. Yes tha t was [in tervenes]. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: No it was referring to the components agreemen t but do you have a recollection of a meeting with him a t which you said tha t 10 he should not be g iven a full copy of the agre ement [in tervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe le t us go to tha t d ocument, I mean tha t is wha t Miss Mbanjwa and Miss Memela would like. L et us go to where he says that. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: I just need to find which one it is going to be in . It is in G . It is in 22(G), ah yes. MS MEMELA: 22(G)? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 22(G) and you pick it up , apologies, Mr Kenny’s affidavit begins at 3150 . Tha t is where the affidavit star ts and the relevant paragraph I am referring to is a t page 3155. So we are in DD22 (G) and we are at page 3155 . This is in Mr Kenny’s a ffidavit. And in paragraph 23 on 20 that page, I will just read it into the record, h e says: “At one of the Exco mee tings after the agree ment with AAR, JM Aviation had been signed , I asked to be provided with a copy. Miss Meme la to ld me I could not be given a copy o f the full contract and would only be given a part of it. I took issue with this and asked why Page 177 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 I could no t be g iven the whole contract and Miss Memela said that it was to protect me. I did no t understand what tha t mean t a t the time and I s till do not understand what she was conveying. I h ave never seen the full contract.” Do you have a response to tha t? MS MEMELA: Chair, I think I may have read, oh I have no t responded to this a ffidavit, I think. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 10 No you have no t provided any sta tement or anything bu t we have the opportunity now just to ask you now what your response is. MS MEMELA: No, I do not remember th is discussion with Mr Kenny. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: Did you receive [in te rvenes]. Was it a verbal discussion, wr itten discussion? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: He says he asked to be provided with a copy [intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: It was? CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ja I think he says it was at a mee ting . He says it was a t a mee tin g MS MEMELA: At a meeting CHAIRPERSON: O f Exco, if I MS MEMELA: At Exco? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So it would have been ve rbal. Ja. He says at one o f the Exco meetings a fter the agreemen t with AAR stroke JM Aviation had been Page 178 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 signed. MS MEMELA: Chair, I am, I have raised th is concern again before, I fee l that I do no t know, I may be wrong, the way people are writing about Nonsasa to an exten t, where even Mr Human , Skalk Human , who has never set eyes on me has something to say about me. I am not sure if they are being guided or something , bu t like I will just like answer the part where it is not even possible that MR Kenny, remembe r first o f all I do no t manage contracts. There is no way tha t like he will ask me for the signed contract especially during Exco mee ting tha t is chaired by Mr Assan Malolo Phiri, 10 who was an acting CEO who signed the contract. You understand like I mean I am not sure why he would ask me specifically for the contract instead of asking Mr Assan Malo lo Phiri the signatory to the contract. CHAIRPERSON: We ll he may, he may have asked you because he says in another paragraph o f his a ffidavit, paragraph 21, the page be fore the one where there is paragraph 23 , she says you and Miss Mbheki were responsible for the lega l aspects during these negotia tions with Miss Mbheki taking the lead on the dra fting . So she [in tervenes]. MS MEMELA: So you see [intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Where you said Miss Mb heki was as far as you are concerned supposed to be the leader of drafting maybe par t of what he says here supports that. MS MEMELA: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: But he does say that you and Miss Mbheki were responsible for the legal aspects or during the negotia tions. Maybe tha t is why he was asking you for a copy. Page 179 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: Bu t Chair, Mike knows that I only managed contracts when I was holding Miss Mbheki’s position . Legal an d contracts manager. So there is no way he will ask me because from procurement now I was not managing any contracts, yes. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: Okay. That was the role of Miss Mb heki and I am saying now since Miss Mbheki, in fact Miss Mbheki was takin g part in Exco when Mr Zwane had gone and acted a t SAA. So I a m saying with Miss Mbheki there and Mr Assan Malolo Phiri they being the signato ry of the con tract. 10 Bo th in attendance in Exco and then he specifically asked for the copy o f the contract from me . Chair no , it just does not a dd up, ja. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Miss Memela did yo u ever receive yourself a copy of the contract after it was signed? MS MEMELA: I th ink during the time there was where we were supposed to go to U.K. and oh no no, in fac t be fore tha t. When Air France took SAAT to court so we had to ge t a copy, it is just tha t I do not remember where we go t the copy from, bu t we had to ge t all those copies, as much as we had to get the tender documenta tion from the CFST to respond to National Treasury, to respond to Miss Dudu Myeni, who was als o asking questions about the 20 award and stu ff, ja. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So you do recall at some poin t because tha t litiga tion was actually quite shortly a fter the a ward was it no t? MS MEMELA: It was shortly after the award, yes. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So it would have been around the time o f the conclusion of the contract then tha t you did g et a full copy? Page 180 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS MEMELA: It will have been around the time when we were preparing to defend the ma tter in court. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Thank you. MS MEMELA: Yes. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: I would then like to [Intervenes]. Sorry Miss Hofmeyr I just, b ecause this is written it is s till about AAR and JM. Can I direct you to DD25(B). CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat what you are saying? When you do that par t of what you say, we cannot hear. 10 MS MEMELA: Exhibit DD25(D) tha t is my file Chair. CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: I would like us to go to page 487 of tha t file . CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: Ja. Is that in response, to respond to a question? I am trying to see what is th is documentation? CHAIRPERSON: MS MEMELA: Yes, yes, wha t do you want us to look a t? Which documen tation? The one on page 487 Chair of DD25. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: MS MEMELA: Is this par t o f the con tract or? Let me [in tervenes]. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 20 It is an annexure to Miss Mbheki’s a ffidavit. No it is no t, Miss Mb heki explains what it is at page 469 in paragraph 17 MS MEMELA: four six nine? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: She says in the me eting on 3 June 2016, the team discussed the bind ing agreement to en ter into definitive documen tation. The said agreement is dated 3 June 2016, for ease of reference see annexure 3. CHAIRPERSON: But why do you wan t u s to go there Miss Memela? Page 181 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 Because we are still with Mr Kenny’s a ffidavit. MS MEMELA: No, no, no, I was jus t like still, my mind is s till in the AAR contract, there being signed and then I see th is one. CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us , Miss Ho fmeyr is about to fin ish her questions, le t your mind come back. MS MEMELA: Okay, sorry Chair. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Miss Memela I wante d to draw your atten tion to one of the provisions o f the signed agreement w hich you have confirmed for us you did see a t a poin t when the litiga tion was being pursued by Air France, 10 and you will find that in DD22 at page 2325. MS MEMELA: Ja. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: It was the one I dr ew your a tten tion to a mo ment ago. This is a clause that we dealt with in Mr Human ’s evidence and the clause that is relevant is Clause 4.26 a t th e botto m of tha t page. And I would just like us to look at it because th ere is going to be a series of questions tha t flow from it so it will be usefu l jus t to have it in the front o f our minds. Wha t it says at 4 .26 is : “Prior to the commencement date JM AAR will invoice SAAT for the deposit.” 20 CHAIRPERSON: I a m sorry, are you at 2325 ? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: CHAIRPERSON: I am at 2 ...[in tervenes] I a m sorry. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Apolog ies Chair CHAIRPERSON: Are you at 2325? Page 182 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: I a m at 2325 and I a m reading from the last clause on tha t page 4.26 [Intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Okay ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Apolog ies. CHAIRPERSON: Ac tually, we may. Oh no, okay let us continue because I think you were close to fin ishing [In tervenes]. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: CHAIRPERSON: I a m no t pu tting pressure on you [Intervenes]. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 10 CHAIRPERSON: I am indeed No,no ,no. Just that I was thinking whether there should be an adjournment bu t let us finish first and then we can take it fro m there. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: CHAIRPERSON: I think Miss Mbanjwa would like to say something . Miss Mbanjwa would you like to say some thing? MS MBANJWA: No, not really. It is a personal th ing Chair [Intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: MS MBANJWA: Oh I want to just get a quick co mfort break and come back just now. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay, no . Tha t is fine, let us do tha t. Ten minutes? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes Is ten minutes fine? MS MBANJWA: It is more than enough. CHAIRPERSON: Okay, le t us just say ten minutes. So we will resume a t quarter past. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Thank you Chair CHAIRPERSON: We are adjourned . Page 183 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 REGISTRAR: All rise. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY R ESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Ho fmeyr. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Thank you Chair. We were going to look at clause 4.26 on page 2325 o f Exhibit DD22F. And b ecause it is go ing to frame the next set o f ques tions, I propose just to read the clause into the record. It provides the fo llowing; Prior to the commencement da te JM/AAR will invoice SAAT for the deposit. 10 SAAT will pay the deposit by way of irrevocable stand by le tter o f credit from a bank acceptable to JM/AAR and in a form to agree to by JM/AAR. The parties agree tha t; 4.26.1 JM/AAR will have the righ t to set o ff any SAAT invoices not paid by its due da te against the deposit. 4.26.2 SAAT shall when necessary throughout the term o f this agreement replen ish the deposit to main tain the amoun t invoiced by JM/AAR prior to the commencement da te. 20 4.26.3 At the time of expira tion of termination o f this agreemen t JM/AAR will arrange for the release of the deposit to the extend that SAAT has paid a ll outstanding invoices. Ms Memela , you had a copy of the agreement at the time Page 184 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 around which it was signed and the litiga tio n. Did you have cause to look and consider this par ticular clause? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: No, I d id not Chair. I do know that from the- tha t first meeting tha t I was referring to , the dep osit was par t of the condition’s precedence between both parties . And there was conditions precedent for SAAT as well and as much as there was con ditions precedent for the other party. So tha t was d iscussed on the first mee ting. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: But what was concluded was actually an arrangement whereby there will be an irrev ocable standby le tter of credit 10 from a bank which would serve the purpose of the deposit. Is that not correct? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: According to the contract, yes tha t is correct. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Yes. So , then I would like to just follow up on what happened with the paymen t of cash to AAR b ecause what star ts to happen in September of 2016 is that it appears tha t AAR star ts to raise the issue o f why it has not been paid a deposit. Do you r ecall tha t? MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: I recall Chair th at they were not pa id because SAAT was not in a good financial space I think so SAAT could no t pay that. But I think the person who can answer that better will be the CFO of the 20 company. ADV KATE HO FMEYR: Well there is qu ite a bit o f correspondence involving you so that is why I would like to take you to that. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Okay. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And we can comme nce that in your file DD25B at page 649.2. Page 185 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Page? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: 649 .2 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Ja . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Okay. So, 649.2 the first o f the e mails in this e mail chain is in the second half of that page. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: It is an ema il from Ms Phumeza Nhantsi, who was she? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Phumeza Nhants i Chair is the- was the former 10 Group Chief financial O fficer of SAA. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Chair you will re call we had Ms Nhantsi give evidence in June of las t year be fore the Commission. CHAIRPERSON: I was trying to remember w hether ... (in tervenes) ADV KATE HOFMEYR: You remember? CHAIRPERSON: The name is the same. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Indeed. CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: It is indeed. And she sends and email to Mr Michael Klein and Dev Arya and it is copied to yourself and Mr Musa Zwane. Is tha t 20 correct? MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: She sends the e mail to Michael Klein being thefrom what do you call this? It is the depar tment reports to finance from SAA but just for- Treasury Department and then Mr Dev Arya- I thought I should explain since Ms Hofmeyr wanted me to expla in also Phumeza Nhantsi tha t I Page 186 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 should explain others as well thereon. And then Dev Arya is the CFO- was the CFO of SAAT. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And then it is copie d to yourself and Mr Zwane, is that correct? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: That is correct. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And it is da ted the 29 t h of Sep tember 2016? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes , that is correct. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And just to read in to the record what Ms Nhantsi says on that email. She says; 10 Good day, my understanding fro m the d iscussion tha t I had w ith the ACEO- I take that to be Ac ting CEO – AAR now wan ts us to pay them 1 mon th deposit which is equivalent to 1 million US dollars. We can make the payment if you can facilitate the paperwork. As I understand that it is part o f their policy that we should pay a deposit which we did to the previous service provider. And then the nex t e mail in response is from Mr Klein to Ms Nhan tsi, Mr Arya and copied again to yourself and Mr Zwane. It is on the same day a little b it la ter. And Mr Klein says; Dear all, p lease discuss with AAR the possibility to replace the cash security 20 deposit with a bank guarantee or s tandby letter o f credit sometime in the future. If it is not currently a clause in th e agreement. It is a s tandard clause we have introduced in to a ircraft lease agreements as well. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm-hmm. Page 187 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And then if you go back a page to page 649.1 you will see your response to that group o f recip ients. Could you read in to the record what you said in response to Mr Klein? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: From page 6.- 649.1? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Indeed. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes , a t the bo tto m there. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Yes . MS NONTSASA MEMELA: We will do Michae l. All I re member during the negotia tions we fough t against this and they confirmed tha t th is is part 10 of the ir policy. Un fortunate ly, we could no t walk away and automatically disqualify them because the deposit or lack thereof was never part of our tender requirement. So, we can safely say tha t Air France one would have been a better deal as this deposit is still par t of the price in the co ntract. We still stand to save a significant saving out of this. Thanks Michael. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Ms Meme la why did y ou not respond to Mr Klein and say, no, no , it is no t a problem. The agree ment does actua lly only make provision for an irrevocable standby le tter o f credit? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm? Why d id I not say- sorry, can you repea t 20 that? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Because what Mr Klein is saying is he saying; we are now being asked to pay cash o f 1 million US dollars and he says to you at page 649.2 ; Page 188 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 Please discuss with AAR the possibility to re place the cash security deposit with a bank guarantee or a standby le tter of credit sometime in the fu ture is it is not currently a clause in the agreement, r ight. And your response to him was; Reflecting on the nego tiations and that you fo ught hard and ... (in tervenes) MS NONTSASA MEMELA: No , the first on before the nego tia tions say, we will do Michael. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Indeed. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes. Meaning we will check what he said should 10 be checked. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Oh , so you did check, did you? MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: No, no , I am say- you say why did I not just- that is why I am saying Chair the response to Mic hael was, we will do Michael. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: And then I just went on to explain to h im as I was saying it was part of the condition’s precedent. I remember this because it was discussed in that mee ting. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Okay. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: First meeting so I went just through tha t because he is sitting a t Treasury at SAE tha t is why I had to explain who is who so that he understands the background. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes . Page 189 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Okay. Thank you. So sorry, I did misunderstand. So then did you go and check the agreement? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: I will not re member right now. Reme mber ... (intervenes) CHAIRPERSON: Bu t you are- you ... (in tervenes) MS NONTSASA MEMELA: When I say ... (in tervenes) CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Okay Chair. CHAIRPERSON: But is my understanding correct tha t tha t wha t you have 10 just said is that you were saying, you will check the agreement? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: I said we. CHAIRPERSON: Ja we. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: We will do . CHAIRPERSON: Yes. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: We will do. That involves the CFO ... (intervenes) CHAIRPERSON: Checking of the agreement. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Of SAAT because he is the- no, he said we must check with AAR . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Mm. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: If the replacemen t of ja and tha t is the financialwhat, top ic. Ja, so my understanding , tha t w ill be done through finance not me checking directly. So, I am no t sure if I checked that. ADV KATE HO FMEYR: Sorry, but I understo od you to emphasise a mo ment ago in response tha t you said, we will do tha t. Page 190 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes. I was re ading tha t because you were focusing on the negotiations only. So, I a m saying I did respond to Michael. Because you were saying why did I no t res pond and say th is. So , I am saying I did say, we will do Michael. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Indeed. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So, what did you do? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: I do not remember. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: You do no t remember ? 10 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: No . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Okay. Oh, there see ms to be a comment. CHAIRPERSON: Oh Ms Mbanjwa , you had your hand up. I did no t see it. MS L MBANJWA: Oh, sorry Chair. CHAIRPERSON: I did not see it bu t okay yes. MS L MBANJWA: Yes, sorry Chair that I should have waited for you. No Chair, I am jus t correcting . What I think is going to confuse Ms Me mela. What Ms Hofmeyr star ted by do ing was to re ad from volume DD22 2325 and that is the agreemen t. So , she directed our a tten tion to clause 4 .26 which is already an agreemen t that is there . And tha t agreement does have a clause 20 that says; prior to the commencement da te JM/AAR will invoice SAAT for the deposit. SAAT will pay the deposit by way of an irrevocable standby le tter of credit from a bank acceptable to JM/AAR and in a fo rm agreed to by JM/AAR. Page 191 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 So tha t clause is there . Now this o ther doc ument which is Exhibit DD25B Ms Meme la’s bund le if I could call it that. There is tha t le tter in ... (intervenes) CHAIRPERSON: Next time you check just check and stop speaking and come back to the mic and speak. Because when they transcribe there w ill be a lo t o f inaudible for during the time when you were looking at the file . MS L MBANJWA: Okay. CHAIRPERSON: So then no t everything you say will be captured in terms of the transcript. 10 MS L MBANJWA: Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright. MS L MBANJWA: I can continue. CHAIRPERSON: Continue ja. MS L MBANJWA: Then in th is bundle DD25 page 649.2 there is tha t email from Michael Klein dated the 29 Septe mber w hich says; please discuss with AAR the possibility to re place the cash security deposit with a bank guarantee or standby le tter of credit some time . So, what I am trying to point ou t is that that clause for 4.26 already provides for substitu tion o f a cash security d eposit with a bank guarantee or 20 a standby letter o f credit. So, why I am scared tha t Ms Memela is being asked to answer is because what she- wh at Ms Hofmeyr is saying she should have checked is something which is a lready in tha t agreemen t. It is there. I just do not know why the parties ha d this engagement. Maybe the party you asked was not aware of the provisions of this con tract. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think le t us leave Ms Hofmeyr to ... (intervenes) Page 192 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS L MBANJWA: Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Conduct the question ing. J a okay alright. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So , Ms Meme la I u nderstand your evidence to be you do not recall what you did to follow it up. Is that righ t? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: I do no t recall what I did to follow tha t up but I do know that it is finance tha t is supposed to do- dealing with this th ing which is my understanding is that the reason why at the first place Ms Pumaza Nhantsi was involved. She was th e group Chief Financial O fficer whom is the one who actua lly approves from Treasury what should be paid 10 to which supplier. CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: So , at no poin t a fter these email in Sep tember didwell le t me ask it differently. Did you a t a ny point a fter these e mails in September of 2016 go and get the contrac t a nd looked for the provisions in relation to the deposit? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: I do not remember Chair. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: We ll le t us go to wh at then happens because there is a jump in time to abou t April 2017 in the correspondence that we have in relation to this matter. And you will find tha t in your bundle DD25B. 20 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm-hmm. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: At page 650 . MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Ja . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: No a t 650 there is an email there from Mogo tso Masese, who is tha t? CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, at what page? Page 193 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Apologies Chair. We are at 650 . CHAIRPERSON: Okay. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And I am starting at the botto m o f the page to fo llow the chronology. MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: Chair can we be fore we get to Makgotso, start from the e mail from AAR righ t be fore Makgots o? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Oh , over the previo us page. Yes, certainly let us start a t 651 . MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: Yes. There is that email Chair where Makgotso 10 then is I guess he is following up on. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: The ema il is coming from Mr Mathew Dobbs from AAR. CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Returned to Ma kgotso Mosese. Ms Hofmeyr asked me who is Makgotso. Makgotso is Management Accountant of SAAT form finanace department. Dear Makgotso, hope you are well. In a ttach ment you will find the s tatemen t of account. We are 3 invoices overdue, wou ld you p lease have a look and 20 let me know if you need additional in fo from u s. In add ition , you will find the la te fee calculation sheet. I remain at your disposal for any add itiona l in fo you need. And then Makgo tso responds adding Wellington who was the Business Analyst ... ( intervenes) Page 194 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Ms Meme la just to in terject there, I do no t think it is the response to Mr Dobbs. I think what Makg otso Mosese does then is- it is an internal correspondence. Is tha t righ t? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes. That is wh y I said he- she followed up or maybe sent it to the in ternal people . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Yes . MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Based on Mr Dobb s email. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Yes , and what does she say? MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: She is writing to Wellington Nyuswa from finance 10 as well, he was the manger there. Hi Welling ton, AAR is enquiring about the s ecurity deposit invoice that we were contractually suppose to pay. The payment never happened. Wellington , I believe the expense authorisa tion was last with you. I do no t quite remember why the paymen t was ne ver made bu t I think it had something to do with Treasury. Please remind o f why we never made th is pay ment so that I can give AAR an appropriate response. And then Dev Arya the Chief Financial O fficer response on the same date ... (in tervenes) 20 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And Ms Meme la he now includes you in the response. Is tha t righ t? MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: He includes me in the response and then he adds Bongile Mte mbo. Hi Makgotso, please refer the query to Nontsasa and she will respond directly. Page 195 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: And then your response is at the top of the page . What did you say? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: My response at th e top of the page. Dear Makgotso, according to the contract we have with AAR we are actua lly supposed to have made a payment for security deposit up front before they ever started providing services for us. Tha t was conditions precedent. What happened then , we negotia ted with th em to pay one month upfront instead of the whole three mon ths security deposit. We aga in negotiated with them to only charge the rema ining two mon ths by including it to the 10 normal invoice and spread it over six mon ths. This exercise was supposed to have happen ed two months ago already. I am not sure why they are not paid . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Ms Meme la what I am interested in there is your introductory words. According to the contract we have with AAR. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm-hmm. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: We were actually supposed to have made a payment for security deposit upfron t. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm-hmm. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Before they even star ted providing services for us. 20 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Ja . ADV KATE HOFMEYR: That is no t what the c ontract provides. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: On the condition ’s precedence Chair- that is why I say the discussion was that we- SAAT will pay three months up front but through the nego tia tions they were able to agree on certain changes as I just sta ted in my email. Page 196 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Yes . Why would you say that the contract tha t was concluded with AAR required a payment o f a deposit up front when tha t is not what the contract provides. MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: Okay. Can we g o to- Chair before I answer this question because I just want to check what is in the condition’s precedence? I will direc t you just now. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Okay Chair the - page 2327 a t DD22F o f Mr Human. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit DD25. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: 22 F. CHAIRPERSON: Is that what is written on th e spine? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mr Human . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: On the contract of AAR . CHAIRPERSON: 22F? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: 22 F. 20 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Indeed Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes . CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you- wha t is the page number? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: The page number is 2327. CHAIRPERSON: Okay 2327. Page 197 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: It says JM AAR ob ligation to provide the services to SAAT is conditional upon fulfilment an d delivery to JM AAR of the following conditions precedent. 6.23.1 Payment of the deposit. And then it sta tes o ther conditions precedent. I am trying to remember where was the three mon ths bec ause I remember there was a discussion of three months . 10 CHAIRPERSON: And if there was three mon ths, what was going to be your answer? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Okay the question from Ms Hofmeyr was that, why did I say it was three mon ths when the c ontract does no t say that. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: No , that was not the question. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Oh okay. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: The question was wh y did you say according to the contract. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm-hmm. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: You had to make pay ment o f a security deposit when 20 all that the contract required was a s tandby le tter from the bank? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Okay. Chair can I read aga in and explain my interpretation? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: According to the contract we have with AAR we were actually supposed ... (in tervenes) Page 198 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Where are you reading from? MS NONTSASA MEMELA: I am reading the same email tha t Ms Hofmeyr is reading. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay, ja. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: According to the contract we have w ith AAR we are actually supposed to have made a payment for security deposit upfront before they ever started providing services for us. What happened then, we negotiated with them to pay one mo nth upfront instead o f the whole three mon ths security deposit. 10 So, the negotia tion happened before the contr act was concluded. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Ms Me mela we are at cross purposes. What I am interested in is the con tract clause 4 .26 that we looked a t does no t require any money to be paid by SAAT to AAR. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm? ADV KATE HOFMEYR: What it requires is a n irrevocable standby le tter o f credit fro m a bank in respect o f which drawdowns can be made . Bu t rather than saying that, Ms Memela , in your response to the queries from finance, you said; According to the con tract we have with AAR we were actually supposed to 20 have made a payment for security deposit u pfront before they even started providing services for us. I understand the negotia tions is abou t whe ther it is one mon th or three months bu t the poin t I am interested in is why would you say that it is necessary that a payment be made for the se curity deposit ... (intervenes) MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Okay. Page 199 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 ADV KATE HOFMEYR: When all tha t the a greement- if I could finish my question. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: When all that the agreement required was a standby letter of credit to be provided. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Bu t you are rea ding fro m pricing and paymen t versus the deposit. The deposit Chair was th e payment that was going to be made upfron t. CHAIRPERSON: Where in the agreement do es it say there needed to be a 10 payment o f ... (in tervenes) MS NONTSASA MEMELA: The deposit. CHAIRPERSON: A deposit? MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: That is why Chair I had taken you to the conditions precedent page 2327 o f ... ( intervenes) CHAIRPERSON: Page 2327. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: O f 22- of Exhib it 2 2F of Mr Human. CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry. 2327 of 22F. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: O f 22F, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON: 2327, I am there. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes , and then th ere is provision 6 tha t talks to conditions precedent and conditions subsequent. CHAIRPERSON: You are re ferring to 6 .23.1 payment o f the deposit. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes chair. Page 200 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: So, Ms Hofmeyr is mixing these provisions. The one in 4- he is talking about pricing and payment. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Yes , le t us ... (in tervenes) MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Towards the contr act. ADV KATE HOFMEYR: Look at what ... (inter venes) MS NONTSASA MEMELA: And I a m re ferring- in my e mail it is referring to the deposit that SAAT had taken time to pay to AAR. It is not referring to pricing and payment. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Bu t go to clause 4.26 Ms Memela a t page 2325. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes . CHAIRPERSON: It says; prior to the commencement date JM/AAR will invoice SAAT for the deposit. And then it says ... ( intervenes) MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Where are you re ading Chair? CHAIRPERSON: Clause 4.26 at page 2325 same bundle. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes . 33? CHAIRPERSON: 2325. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: 2325 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. The clause is the last clause on the page 4 .26. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm-hmm. CHAIRPERSON: It says; Prior to the commencemen t da te JM/AAR will invoice SAAT for the deposit. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm-hmm. Page 201 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: Then it says; SAAT will pay the deposit by way of an irrevocable standby le tter of credit from a bank acceptable to JM/AAR. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes . CHAIRPERSON: And in a form agreed to by JM/AAR. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Yes . CHAIRPERSON: So , this does not mean as I see it tha t cash was required to be paid. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: No I- yes Chair. 10 CHAIRPERSON: The submission of a stand by letter o f credit from a bank acceptable to JM/AAR would be regarded as that deposit. MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: Yes Chair. Bu t what I was explaining to the finance team was that be fore the con tract w as concluded the AAR had put on the negotia tion table on that first day th at we were supposed to have made a payment for security deposit upfron t and they said that was their policy when we stood up to that. actually explaining. I th ink th ere is somewhere where I am I think it is in the- where I am explaining to Michael Klein ... (intervenes) CHAIRPERSON: But do you accept now having looked at clause 4.26 even 20 having regard to the condition ’s precedent cla use 6. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm. CHAIRPERSON: That in terms o f the agree ment SAAT was not required to pay cash so to speak? It needed to simp ly pr ovide a standby le tter of credit from a bank acceptable to JM/AAR. Page 202 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Chair where I am responding tha t I a m not sure why they were no t- they are no t pa id. I was r esponding to Makgotso’s email to Welling ton where she is saying; Wellington , I believe the expense authorisa tion was last with you. I do no t quite remember why the paymen t was never made but I think it has- it had something to do with Treasury. CHAIRPERSON: But that is the poin t that MS Ho fmeyr is pursuing to say, why is anybody talking abou t as I understand what is being said in the emails, paymen t as if it is payment o f cash. 10 I am saying cash including electronic transfers whereas what is all that SAAT was obliged to do . MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Mm-hmm. CHAIRPERSON: And all that JM/AAR were e ntitled to was simply a standby letter of credit from a bank tha t was acceptable to them. MS NONTSA SA MEMELA: Okay Chair I do no t remember but my understanding is that finance would have the copy of the contract to understand what are the terms o f payment. CHAIRPERSON: Yes , but what I am asking is whether- okay no, maybe not now. MS NONTSASA MEMELA: Okay. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t th a t is – w h a t I h a v e j u s t s a i d is w h a t th e a g r e e m e n t r e q u ir e d ? M S M E M E L A : Ye s . W a s r e q u ir e d y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a c c e p t t h a t . H a v e th a t a l w a y s b e e n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o r w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a t s o m e s ta g e d i ffe r e n t? M S M E M E L A : A s I h a d s a i d C h a ir t h a t li k e t h e l a s t ti m e I h a d ta lk e d Page 203 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 a b o u t th is c o n tr a c t t h e f ir s t t i m e i t w a s t h a t f ir s t d a y w h e n w e w e r e n e g o ti a ti n g a n d I r e m e m b e r li k e t h e d is c u s s i o n a r o u n d c o n d i ti o n s p r e c e d e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t … MS M EM ELA: it took long yes. CHAIRPERSON: I a m n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t b e f o r e th e c o n c l u s io n o f c o n tr a c t. M S M E M E L A : O h o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: 10 A f t e r t h e c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n c o n c l u d e d h a d y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g b e e n d i ff e r e n t i n r e g a r d t o S A AT ’s o b li g a t i o n s a b o u t t h e d e p o s it ? M S M E M E L A : A f t e r t h e c o n tr a c t h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d C h a ir I d o u b t t h a t I h a d g o n e b a c k t o t h e c o n tr a c t e x c e p t t h e ti m e w h e n w e w e r e p r e p a r in g to g o t o d e f e n c e s u c h a t c o u r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S M E M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So you are not sure what you may… MS M EM ELA: I am not sure. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u m a y h a v e n o t h a v e k n o w n a t th e ti m e . 20 M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . M s H o f m e y r I th i n k th e h a n d h a s b e e n c le a r e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t c le a r e d ? O k a y M s M b a n jw a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir ju s t b e f o r e I h a n d o v e r to M s M b a n j w a . I Page 204 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 w o u ld ju s t li k e t o r a is e a c a u ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w o u l d d i m i n i s h t h e w e ig h t o f M s M e m e la ’s e v i d e n c e a ft e r t h is p o i n t is i f in a n y c o m m e n t o r o b je c ti o n th a t M s M b a n j w a r a is e s s h e e ff e c t iv e l y l e a d s M s M e m e l a t o a n a n s w e r a n d i t i s ju s t s o m e th i n g th a t I r a is e b e c a u s e i t u l ti m a t e l y h a s a n i m p a c t o n t h e w e i g h t t h a t i s a ffo r d e d t o M s M e m e l a s o I w o u l d ju s t s u g g e s t t o m y le a r n e d f r i e n d t h a t s h e n o t l e a d M s M e m e l a in a n y q u e s t i o n t h a t s h e now or comment she wants to raise. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e r e a s o n w h y I a m r a is i n g a h a n d i s b e c a u s e I b e li e v e [i n d is t in c t ] M s H o f m e y r a n d M s M e m e la I a m n o t g o i n g t o r a is e it n o w I a m j u s t n o ti n g it b e c a u s e w h e n I r e - e x a m in e I w i ll r e - e x a m i n e a t e x a c tl y th is p o i n t. A n d w h e r e i s th a t e r r o r ? The e r r o r i s th e f a c t t h a t w h a t is h a p p e n i n g i s tw o s e p a r a t e i s s u e s a r e b e i n g c o n fl a t e d . O n e is a c o n d i ti o n p r e c e d e n t w h ic h is e it h e r a l e tt e r o f g u a r a n te e w h ic h w o u l d b e a d e p o s i t t h a t s ta y s t h e r e . A n d th e n w h e n 20 t h e e x p e n s e s c o m e t h e y w o u l d t h e n b e d e b it e d a g a i n s t th a t a c c o u n t a n d th e n t h i s is b e i n g c o n f l a t e d w i th t h e f a c t th a t i n s o fa r a s th e d e p o s i t is c o n c e r n e d a l e t te r o f g u a r a n te e w o u ld b e s u ffi c i e n t . B u t w h a t t h e r e s t o f th e e m a i ls t a l k a b o u t ? g u a r a n te e . Th e y h a v e m o v e d a w a y fr o m t h e l e t te r o f T h e y a r e n o w t a l k i n g a b o u t e x p e n s e s t h a t h a v e a lr e a d y been incurred. Page 205 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 CHAIRPERSON: I think … A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : B u t I w i ll c l a r if y t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k M s M b a n j w a t h a t i s t h e k i n d o f t h in g M s Hofmeyr was talking about. T h a t i t – i t – y o u – y o u r a is e a n is s u e w h ic h m a y b e s e e n a s e x p la in i n g t o M s M e m e l a . Yo u m i g h t n o t b e in t e n d in g t o d o t h a t b u t s h e m a y h a v e t h a t b e n e f i t i n a n s w e r i n g . So m a y b e b e c a u s e i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t h e r e v id e n c e b e g i v e n th e w e i g h t t h a t i t d e s e r v e s . M a y b e k e e p i t fo r y o u r r e - e x a m in a ti o n a n d le t h e r a s – I m e a n a n s w e r t o t h e b e s t o f h e r a b il i ty. N o b o d y is s u g g e s t i n g th a t 10 y o u a r e d o i n g a n y t h i n g d e li b e r a t e ly. B u t s o m e ti m e s w h e n o n e is t r y in g t o r a is e p o i n ts t h is e ff e c t c o u l d a r is e . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B u t Yo u r W o r s h i p – b u t M r C h a ir w h a t I ju s t w a n t t o p o i n t o u t th e w a y I u n d e r s t a n d p r o c e e d in g s o f a n y n a t u r e . I f y o u a r e r e p r e s e n t in g a p a r ty a n d a q u e s ti o n th a t is c o n f u s i n g is d ir e c t e d a t th e p a r t y y o u c a n s ta n d … CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : S t a n d u p a n d s a y th e q u e s ti o n is c o n fu s i n g . I d o n o t th i n k C h a ir t h e t e s t is t h e t e s t o f w h a t M s H o f m e y r with due respect has said. 20 S h e s a i d i f I a m s t a n d in g u p t o p o i n t o u t t h a t s h e h e r s e l f i s a s k i n g a c o n f u s in g q u e s t io n t h a t w o u l d t h e n m e a n a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y w h e n e v i d e n c e o r c r e d i b i li ty o f th a t w i t n e s s is b e in g ju d g e d i t w i ll b e a g a i n s t h e r. T h a t i s n o t t h e t e s t . w a s th e q u e s t io n c o n fu s i n g ? The test would be B e c a u s e if t h e q u e s t i o n w a s c o n fu s i n g then it means we are in the right. CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , n o i f t h e – if y o u b e li e v e t h e q u e s t io n is Page 206 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 c o n fu s i n g y o u a r e – i t is l e g i t i m a te f o r y o u t o r a is e t h a t . B u t e v e n fr o m y o u r o w n e x p la n a ti o n it s e e m e d t o c o n f ir m my o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g w h ic h w a s t h a t I c e r t a i n ly d i d n o t s e e i t a s c o n f u s i n g . you did not see it as confusing. Th a t d o e s n o t m e a n Yo u m a y h a v e s e e n it a s c o n fu s i n g . But… A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : N o t h a n k y o u C h a ir I t h a n k y o u f o r y o u r p a t ie n c e . B u t I w i ll t a k e i t u p in r e - e x a m in a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y a lr i g h t . Ye s o k a y. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir M s M b a n j w a in h e r c o m m e n t s a m o m e n t a g o a n d s e e k in g t o c l a r if y th e c o n f u s i o n m a d e a s t a t e m e n t t h a t t h e s e in v o ic e s w e r e r e l a t e d t o e x p e n s e s . Th a t is n o t t h e c a s e . And the r e a s o n f o r t h a t is b e c a u s e t h e w a y t h a t t h e d e p o s i t w o r k e d u n d e r t h e a g r e e m e n t I w i ll t a k e y o u t o t h e p r o v is i o n n o w. I j u s t h a v e to fi n d i t a g a in . W a s a s fo ll o w s . Yo u fi n d it a t t h e a g r e e m e n t i t i s tu c k e d a w a y t h is is a v e r y c o m p l e x a g r e e m e n t . B u t i t is a t p a g e 2 3 3 5 o f D D 2 2 F. CHAIRPERSON: At 2235 yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Yo u s e e th a t is w h e r e y o u fi n d t h e d e f in i ti o n o f d e p o s i t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l s e e a g a i n s t 3 i t s a y s : “Deposit equal to three months revenue to be r e v ie w e d a n d a d ju s te d a n n u a lly in l i n e w i th fl e e t g r o w t h a n d a n n u a l e s c a l a ti o n . ” CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 207 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o C h a ir t h e w h o l e s tr u c t u r e … M S M E M E L A : C h a ir. S o r r y w h e r e a r e y o u r e a d in g M a ’a m ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h s o r r y 2 3 3 5 . MS M EM ELA: 2335. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is t h e p a r t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t g iv e s t h e d e f in i ti o n o f d e p o s i t a n d i t is t h e p l a c e I t h in k y o u w e r e l o o k i n g f o r e a r l ie r M s M e m e la b e c a u s e i t r e f e r s t o t h r e e m o n t h s . “ T h e d e p o s i t is e q u a l to t h r e e m o n t h s r e v e n u e to b e r e v ie w e d a n d a d ju s te d a n n u a lly in l i n e w i th fl e e t 10 g r o w t h a n d a n n u a l e s c a l a ti o n . ” S o w h a t h a p p e n s is w h e n y o u r e a d th e c o n d i ti o n s p r e c e d e n t C l a u s e 4 .2 6 a n d t h e d e f i n i ti o n . A n d t h is i s p l a y e d o u t i n t h e i n v o ic e s t h a t t h e n c o m e fr o m A A R . S o I w il l g o to t h e f a c ts i n a m o m e n t . I t is a r e q u ir e m e n t o f th is a g r e e m e n t a n d Ms M e m e la I a m p u t ti n g t h i s t o y o u s o t h a t i f y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s ta n d i n g y o u c a n c l a r i fy t h a t f o r t h e c o m m i s s io n . M S M E M E L A : W h e r e a r e y o u – y o u a r e s t i ll o n 2 3 3 5 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I a m n o w d r a w i n g th e c o n d i t io n p r e c e d e n t , t h e d e fi n it i o n o f d e p o s i t a n d C l a u s e 4 .2 6 t o g e th e r. B e c a u s e y o u h a v e 20 t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e a g r e e m e n t in it s t o ta li t y. A n d i f y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s t a n d in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n . M s M e m e la . M S M E M E L A : C h a ir I a m j u s t s a y in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g e t ti n g c o n f u s e d . M S M E M E L A : I a m n o t g e t ti n g c o n f u s e d I a m j u s t s a y i n g m a y b e i t w il l Page 208 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 b r u s h m y e g o a b i t i f M s H o f m e y r w o u l d s a y, o k a y t h e th r e e m o n t h s d e p o s it t h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g t o o n y o u r e m a il I a m s u r e th is is th e one. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s h e j u s t s a id … M S M E M E L A : N o b u t s h e d i d n o t s a y it t h e w a y I w a n t h e r t o s a y i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b u t s h e is o n a c e r t a in p o i n t . S h e is o n a c e r t a in p o i n t . S h e is o n a c e r t a i n p o in t . MS M EM ELA: Because I said it and I now… C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n , h a n g o n , h a n g o n M s M e m e la . S h e i s o n a 10 c e r t a i n p o i n t t h a t s h e r e g a r d s a s r e l e v a n t f o r n o w b u t s h e r e a lis e s th a t it r e f e r s to t h r e e m o n t h s a n d r e m e m b e r s w h a t y o u s a i d e a r li e r o n . M S M E M E L A : W o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s a y s i n p a s s in g b e c a u s e s h e is o n a c e r ta i n p o i n t m a y b e th is i s t h e c l a u s e y o u h a d in m i n d . T h a t is w h a t s h e s a id . MS MEMELA: So – so … CHAIRPERSON: What did you want her to say? M S M E M E L A : N o , n o C h a ir I a m – I a m ju s t – y o u k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . MS M EM ELA: I do not know how to explain it. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . M S M E M E L A : J u s t – j a – le t m e le a v e i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . MS M EM ELA: But I am just – I was just. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r. MS M EM ELA: I was just hoping that she would have said… Page 209 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ti n u e . M S M E M E L A : Yo u k n o w. T h is i s w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s h e is o n a c e r t a i n p o i n t . MS M EM ELA: Now I understand. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , s h e is o n a c e r t a in p o i n t . M S M E M E L A : W h e r e y o u a r e c o m in g fr o m ? CHAIRPERSON: S h e i s o n a c e r t a i n p o in t . S h e m i g h t o r m ig h t n o t c o m e b a c k t o t h a t p o i n t b u t s h e is o n a c e r ta i n p o i n t th a t s h e is b u s y w i t h . M s H o f m e y r. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w h a t I w o u ld l ik e t o d o i s e x p l a i n w h a t t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e c o n s p e c t u s o f t h is c o n tr a c t is s o t h a t M s M e m e l a c a n o ffe r a r e s p o n s e . read it. T h e c o n t r a c t w o r k s a s f o ll o w s a s w e I t is a c o n d i t io n p r e c e d e n t o f th e c o n tr a c t th a t a d e p o s i t b e p a i d . I t i s th e n p r o v i d e d i n C l a u s e 4 . 2 6 a t p a g e 2 3 2 5 h o w t h a t d e p o s i t is g o i n g t o b e p a i d . A n d it is g o i n g t o b e p a i d p r i o r t o t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t d a te . S o i t is c o n s is t e n t w i t h t h e c o n d i t io n s p r e c e d e n t provision. And it says: A n d w h e n y o u g o to t h e d e fi n it i o n s f o r w h a t t h e p r i o r t o t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t d a t e J M / A A R w i ll i n v o i c e S A AT 20 f o r th e d e p o s i t a n d S A AT w il l p a y t h e d e p o s i t b y w a y o f ir r e v o c a b l e s ta n d b y l e t te r o f c r e d i t fr o m a b a n k a c c e p ta b l e t o J M / A A R a n d i n a f o r m a g r e e d to b y JM/AAR.” t d e p o s i t w il l c o m p r is e y o u a r e to l d t h a t i t w il l b e c a lc u l a te d o n t h e b a s is o f th r e e m o n t h s r e v e n u e a n d i t w ill b e e s c a l – r e v i e w e d a n d Page 210 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 a d j u s te d a n n u a l ly i n l in e w i t h fl e e t g r o w t h a n d a n n u a l e s c a l a ti o n w h ic h in t h e c o n s p e c t u s o f t h e c o n tr a c t m a k e s a b s o l u t e s e n s e b e c a u s e i t i s s t a n d in g t h e r e a s a g u a r a n t e e a g a i n s t d e fa u l t a n d la t e p a y m e n ts b y S A AT. T h a t m e a n s a n n u a ll y i t m u s t b e r e v ie w e d b e c a u s e o v e r t h e fiv e y e a r s o f t h e c o n t a c t i t m a y w e ll h a v e t o b e i n c r e a s e d t o p r o v id e t h e s a m e l e v e l o f s e c u r i ty a g a i n s t l a t e p a y m e n t b y S A AT. M s M e m e l a t h a t is w h a t w e u n d e r s ta n d t h e a g r e e m e n t t o m e a n a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o h a v e y o u r c o m m e n t i f y o u u n d e r s ta n d i t i n a n y d i ff e r e n t w a y ? M S M E M E L A : I h a v e n o t c o m m e n t C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n j u s t t o c o n fir m I s a id I w o u l d g o t o th e f a c ts b e c a u s e t h a t i s p r e c is e ly h o w A A R i n v o ic e d f o r i t a lb e it t h a t th e y w e r e n o w w a n ti n g c a s h . anymore. T h e y d id n o t w a n t a s t a n d b y l e t te r o f c r e d it Yo u w i ll f in d t h a t a t D D 2 2 F, i s i t? F a n d th a t i s a t p a g e 2403. CHAIRPERSON: 2203? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 4 0 3 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 2403. MS M EM ELA: 2403. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is is th e i n v o ic e t h a t A A R s e n t to S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s t e c h n ic a l. A n d i t is j u s t a r o u n d th e t i m e o f t h i s c o m m u n ic a ti o n in 2 0 1 7 b e c a u s e it is d a te d t h e 1 8 A p r il 2 0 1 7 . A n d y o u w i ll s e e t h a t t h e t o ta l a m o u n t o f th is i n v o ic e is 4 3 8 2 2 2 4 D o l la r s a n d 7 1 c e n t s . A n d t h e d e s c r i p ti o n th a t is g iv e n o f i t is s e c u r i ty d e p o s i t – 3 Page 211 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 m o n th m i n i m u m f l ig h t h o u r b i ll in g A p r i l 2 0 1 7 m in i m u m F H b i lli n g a n d th e in d i c a t io n is th a t t h e m o n t h l y b il li n g w a s U S D o l l a r s 1 4 6 0 7 4 1 . 5 7 ti m e s 3 . Th a t i s h o w t h e y c a l c u l a t e t h e t h r e e m o n th s t h a t t h e y a r e n o w r e q u ir i n g b e p a id . S o b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n s M s M e m e l a . What then h a p p e n s is i n M a y t h e r e is a f o ll o w u p . A p o l o g ie s I n e e d t o h a v e – ja t h e D D 2 2 G i n fr o n t o f m e . T h e c h a l le n g e t h a t S A AT w a s fa c i n g a t t h a t m o m e n t w a s a c a s h f lo w p r o b l e m . A n d t h a t is e v id e n c e d fr o m th e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s t h a t w e w i ll g o t o n e x t. A n d M s M e m e l a w h a t I w a n t t o p u t to y o u f o r y o u r c o m m e n t i s t h e fo ll o w i n g . Th e d i ff e r e n c e fo r S A AT 10 b e t w e e n a s t a n d b y l e t te r o f c r e d i t fr o m a b a n k a n d a c t u a ll y p a y i n g m o n e y i s th a t – th a t h a s a n i m m e d ia t e i m p a c t o n c a s h fl o w. D o y o u accept that? M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a i r th a t w o u ld b e a n s w e r e d b y t h e fi n a n c i e r t h a t made this payment. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l a r e y o u s u r e th a t i t is s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n n o t a n s w e r b e c a u s e i t s e e ms t o m e t h a t i t w o u ld b e q u it e lo g i c a l th a t i f y o u p a y s o m e b o d y w i t h c a s h l o g ic a l ly a f te r p a y in g s o m e b o d y w it h c a s h y o u a r e l e f t w i th l e s s c a s h . Yo u r b a l a n c e g o e s d o w n a n d i f y o u r – y o u o r y o u r c o m p a n y i s g o i n g t h r o u g h d i ff ic u l t fi n a n c i a l ti m e s y o u m a y b e 20 n e e d i n g t h e c a s h . Ar e y o u s u r e i t is s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n n o t a n s w e r ? M S M E M E L A : N o C h a ir I – I a m n o t tr y in g n o t t o a n s w e r a n y t h i n g b u t I ju s t f e e l t h a t m a y b e i f I w a s th e o n e w h o w a s a p p r o v i n g t h e p a y m e n t t h e n l ik e i t w il l h a v e b e e n l o g ic a l f o r m e to a n s w e r. B u t C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: T h e n I w o u ld a n s w e r in a g e n e r a l s ta t e m e n t t h a t o f Page 212 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 c o u r s e th a t w o u l d – w h a t i t m e a n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS MEMELA: To a l a y p e r s o n w h o d o e s n o t h a v e a f in a n c ia l background. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms M b a n g w a . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th e q u e s ti o n i s u n f a ir t o Ms M e m e l a b e c a u s e t h e p r e m is e is i n c o r r e c t . If a person says p r o v i d e a le t t e r o f g u a r a n t e e o f c r e d i t it d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n t h a t t h a t le t t e r o f g u a r a n t e e o f c r e d i t is n o t u n d e r p i n n e d b y c a s h . Ta k e f o r 10 in s t a n c e my e x a m p le I a m g o i n g t o g iv e . I w o r k a s a c o n v e y a n c e r. I f a c li e n t is b u y in g p r o p e r ty a n d th e n b e f o r e t h e tr a n s f e r c a n ta k e p la c e t h e s e l le r o f t h e p r o p e r ty is g o in g to w a n t g u a r a n te e s th a t o n t h e d a y o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n o f th e s a l e . CHAIRPERSON: I think. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : D o y o u w a n t t o s a y s o m e th in g ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u c a n d e a l w i th it in r e - e x a m i n a t io n . A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u a s l o n g a s i t i s a c c e p t e d it is u n f a i r f o r h e r. T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Let us go to DD22G to pick up where finance s t a r ts t o r a is e w i th y o u th e i r c o n c e r n a b o u t th e c a s h p o s i ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e – w e a r e a t f iv e o ’c l o c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u ld p r e f e r t h a t w e a d j o u r n w h e n y o u a r e d o n e b u t w e – w e a r e a t fi v e o ’c l o c k a n d m a y b e – m a y b e w e s h o u l d a d j o u r n a n d – a n d y o u – y o u fi n is h t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . Page 213 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir. I t h in k it m a y b e s a fe r b e c a u s e a n y e s ti m a t i o n o f t i m e th a t I g iv e y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a is d i ff ic u l t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is u n r e a l is ti c . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t – t h i s is a n a s p e c t t o c o n c l u d e th e payment. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 A n d t h e n th e r e w i ll b e a f e w c o n c l u d i n g a s p e c ts . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e s h o u ld ju s t d o i t t o m o r r o w i f th a t s u i ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . B u t o f c o u r s e w e h a v e to s t a r t l o o k in g – w e s h o u l d t a lk a b o u t w h a t a r r a n g e m e n ts c a n b e d o n e w i th r e g a r d t o Mr Ndzeko. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C h a ir w h a t I … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I – I t h i n k i f w e a r e n o t g o i n g to f in is h w i t h 20 h i m i f w e w il l b e a b l e t o s t a r t a n d n o t fi n i s h w i th h i m a n d o f c o u r s e w e s h o u l d b e a b l e t o s t a r t . B u t if w e a r e g o i n g t o b e a b le t o s ta r t a n d n o t fi n i s h w it h h i m i t m a y b e t h a t w e s h o u l d j u s t a r r a n g e a n o th e r d a t e A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n h e c a n c o m e a n d w e d e a l w i th h i s e v i d e n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r I d i d h a v e a b r i e f o p p o r t u n i ty to s p e a k t o Page 214 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 h is l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o v e r t h e b r e a k . T h e y i n d ic a t e d t o m e th a t t h e y m a y h a v e a p r o p o s a l t h a t w il l fa c i li t a te h is e v i d e n c e . I t h in k th e c h a n c e s a r e e x tr e m e l y l ik e ly – u n lik e ly t h a t w e w il l s ta r t M r N d z e k o t o m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E s p e c ia ll y b e c a u s e o f t h e t i m e t h a t is in d ic a t e d a n d y o u r l i m it a ti o n s t o m o r r o w f o r h o w l o n g w e c a n s i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 S o i t w o u ld b e m y p r o p o s a l t h a t I c o n c lu d e b r i e fl y i n t h e m o r n i n g . W e h a n d o v e r f o r t h e r e - e x a m i n a t i o n a n d th e n I w i ll h a v e d is c u s s i o n s w i t h t h e le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o f M r N d z e k o i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r t h i s h e a r in g a d j o u r n s a n d th e n I c a n c o m e b a c k t o y o u w i th p r o p o s a ls fo r w h e n h e m a y b e a b l e t o r e tu r n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e th a t w il l h a v e to f it in w i t h th e schedule. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e w il l b e a b le to d i s c u s s t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: 20 J a n o t h a t is fi n e . M s M b a n j w a it s e e m s t h a t w e s h o u l d a d j o u r n f o r t o d a y. H a v e y o u g o t a n y t h i n g t o s a y a b o u t t h a t? A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : N o C h a ir I q u i t e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w e a r e i n y o u r h a n d s . I ju s t w a n t e d t o v o i c e a d i ffi c u l ty I m a y h a v e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : A f t e r t o m o r r o w C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 215 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I h a v e a p a r t h e a r d tr ia l i n t h e M a g i s tr a t e s C o u r t . U n f o r t u n a t e l y o n Th u r s d a y I h a v e t o a t t e n d t o t h a t p a r t h e a r d tr i a l s o I a m ju s t s a y in g I d o n o t k n o w w h a t a r r a n g e m e n ts b u t I d o n o t w a n t to in c o n v e n i e n c e t h e c o m m is s i o n b y ju s t ju m p i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h is t h i n g o n th e c o m m i s s i o n to m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e l l y o u – to m o r r o w w e w ill n o t s i t th e w h o l e d a y b e c a u s e I w i ll h a v e to l e a v e t o m o r r o w a f te r l u n c h . I t m a y w e ll b e I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t – i t m a y w e l l b e th a t w e – w e c a n o n l y g o u p to o n e o r i t 10 m a y b e b e fo r e o n e . M a y b e h a l f p a s t t w e lv e I a m n o t s u r e . S o – a n d o n T h u r s d a y w e w ill n o t s i t b e c a u s e I w il l n o t b e a v a il a b l e . S o w e w il l u s e t h e t i m e t o m o r r o w th a t is a v a i la b le a n d i f w e d o n o t f i n is h – I h o p e w e fi n i s h b u t i f w e d o n o t f i n is h th e n w e w il l a r r a n g e f o r s o m e o th e r ti m e . B u t I a m h o p i n g th a t w e c a n f in is h b u t i t h a s n o t b e e n e a s y t o e s t i m a te ti m e . S o – s o i f y o u r c o n c e r n w a s a b o u t T h u r s d a y t h a t s h o u ld n o t b e a p r o b le m . A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ms Memela you understand you – you are part of t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t t o m o r r o w y o u a r e s t ill a v a i la b le ? 20 MS MEMELA: C h a i r I w a s j u s t g o in g t o r a i s e s o m e t h in g w h ic h I a m s u r e I c o u l d h a v e r a is e d i t t h r o u g h m y l a w y e r. I w a s g o i n g to a s k b e c a u s e Ms H o f m e y r a s m u c h a s s h e th i n k s I a m th e o n e w h o a c tu a l ly d e l a y s th e s e – o n c e s h e h a s g iv e n t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g I t h in k w e w il l t a k e t h e w h o l e d a y a g a in . S o I w a n te d to c h e c k i f I c a n n o t g iv e c r i s p answers and then we are done. I w il l n o t t a k e lo n g s o t h a t w e k n o w Page 216 of 217 11 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 211 t h a t to m o r r o w w e s ta r t w it h … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e – w e c a n d o w i t h a f ir m u n d e r t a k i n g to g i v e c r i s p answers Ms Memela. M S M E M E L A : I – I u n d e r t a k e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e w il l s e e . T h e – th e – i f y o u g iv e c r i s p a n s w e r s it w i ll h e l p . M S M E M E L A : I w i ll d o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t w il l h e lp . O k a y I t h i n k w e w il l h a v e t o a d j o u r n a n d – a n d I t h i n k w e m u s t s ta r t a t t e n . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a . O k a y w e w i ll a d j o u r n t h e n a n d t o m o r r o w w e w i ll s t a r t a t t e n . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 2 F E B R U A R Y 2 0 2 0 Page 217 of 217