C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

11 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 3 1

20

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E O N 11 J U LY 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s S e l l o , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : M o r n in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r C a ll a r d . A r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e a r e r e a d y t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

M r C a ll a r d w h e n w e a d j o u r n e d y e s te r d a y w e

w e r e d e a l i n g w i th th e fir s t o f th e f iv e t o p ic s w e h a d a g r e e d M r L a h e r
d e a ls w i t h in h is s t a t e m e n t r e g a r d i n g th e e v i d e n c e y o u g a v e . A n d t h i s
10

fir s t t o p ic r e l a te s t o t h e in c r e a s e i n e s t i m a t e d t o t a l c o s t s o f t h e 1 0 0
lo c o m o t iv e a c q u i s i t io n , y o u r e m e m b e r ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct yes.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W e h a d n o t f in i s h e d th a t t o p ic a n d I w o u l d

in v i te u s t o d o s o n o w.

W e h a d i n d ic a t e d t h a t M r L a h e r d e a ls w i t h

t h e s e i s s u e s in c e r t a i n p a r a g r a p h s i n p a r t ic u l a r 2 6 , 2 7 , 2 8 , 3 1 , 3 2 , 3 6
a n d 3 8 o f h is s t a te m e n t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w i f y o u r e fe r t o …
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry which Exhibit are we using?
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir t h a t w o u l d b e E x h i b it

B B 4 [ f ] . N o w w h a t th e C h a ir h a s i m m e d ia t e ly in fr o n t o f h i m M r C a ll a r d
– is M r C a l la r d ’s r a n g e w h ic h is h is s t a t e m e n t a n d a n n e x u r e s . I a m a t
F 4 F.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d in p a r ti c u l a r w e a r e l o o k in g a t t h e s e c o n d

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
s t a te m e n t u n d e r Ta b 2 . I t is w r it t e n s e c o n d s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: And for ease of…
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I s e e i t is w r it t e n li k e t h a t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a ir w e tr i e d t o u p d a te y o u r fi le s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Thank you.

F o r e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e C h a ir I

w o u ld r e q u e s t t h e C h a ir t o p l e a s e h a v e r e g a r d t o M r C a ll a r d ’s o w n
s t a te m e n t B B 4 [ a ] .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d h is s t a te m e n t i n B B 4 [ a ] w i ll r u n f r o m p a g e
1 . A s I i n d ic a te d y e s te r d a y h a v in g i d e n ti f i e d th e is s u e s t h a t M r C a l la r d
– Mr L a h e r d e a l s w i th w e w i ll b e r e a d i n g b o t h s t a t e m e n ts .

We

understand…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W h a t M r C a ll a r d t e s ti f ie d t o a n d th e n s e e

w h a t M r L a h e r ’s r e s p o n s e i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

In p a r tic u la r o n t h i s a s p e c t w e a r e n o w a t

p a g e 1 5 o f Mr C a ll a r d ’s B B 4 [ a ] a t p a r a g r a p h s 6 4 a n d 6 6 . T h a t i s w h e r e
– of Mr Callard BB4[a].
CHAIRPERSON: At 64?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: At 64 – paragraph 64.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P a g e 1 5 . Yo u h a v e th e s t a te m e n t C h a ir ?

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e g o t t h e s ta t e m e n t.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I f th e C h a i r …
CHAIRPERSON:

Let me just make sure.

My page 64 seems to be

s o m e t h i n g e ls e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o , n o , n o C h a ir p a g e 1 5 p a r a g r a p h 6 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh page 15.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : M y a p o l o g i e s if I c a u s e d c o n f u s i o n y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Page 15.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h e p a g e is 1 5 t h e p a r a g r a p h is 6 4 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Ye s I h a v e g o t it .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d w h i le t h e n w h e n w e a r e o n 1 5 a t 6 4 a n d
6 5 M r C a l la r d y o u w i ll r e c a l l C h a ir is e x p r e s s i n g a v i e w th a t h e c o u ld
n o t j u s ti fy t h e i n c r e a s e fr o m 3 . 8 7 b il li o n t o 4 . 8 b i ll i o n . S o w h a t w e a r e
d e a li n g w it h i s n o w Mr C a ll a r d – M r L a h e r ’s r e s p o n s e t h e r e t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d j u s t t o – t o w r a p u p w h a t – h o w fa r w e

h a d g o n e y e s t e r d a y w e i n d ic a t e d t h a t a s f a r a s o u r d e t e r m i n a ti o n g o e s
20

in t h e p a r a g r a p h s i n Mr L a h e r ’s s t a t e m e n t w h e r e h e d e a l s w i th t h is
is s u e h e d o e s n o t fir s tly d e n y t h a t t h e i n c r e a s e w a s e x c e s s iv e .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No correct.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H e d o e s n o t . W e d e a lt w i th a n n e x u r e Y L 2 4 to
t h e s e c o n d s ta t e m e n t a p p e a r i n g a t p a g e 4 4 o f Mr L a h e r ’s s e c o n d
s t a te m e n t w h e r e M r L a h e r d e m o n s tr a t e d h o w h e d id h is c a lc u l a ti o n s

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
w h ic h b r o u g h t h i m t o a f i g u r e o f 4 1 m i ll io n p e r l o c o m o t iv e . H e t h e n –
w e th e n d e a l t w i t h t h e a s p e c t t h a t Mr L a h e r c l a i m s t h a t M r S i n g h
a d v is e d th a t Mr M o le f e h a d a g r e e d a lr e a d y t o a p r i c e o f 4 4 m il li o n a n d
w e a r e n o w a t th e p o i n t w h e t h e r – o f d e a li n g w i t h t h e j u s t i fic a ti o n f o r
t h e 4 4 m ill i o n .

O k a y.

N o w a t – f o r t h i s w e n e e d t o g o t o M r L a h e r ’s

p a g e 3 6 – p a r a g r a p h 3 6 I a p o l o g is e .

A n d t h a t p a r a g r a p h 3 6 C h a ir

a p p e a r s a t p a g e 7 . N o w in t h is p a g e 3 6 b e f o r e w e d e a l w i t h t h e f a c ts
t h a t M r L a h e r s p e a k s o f I n o te t h a t h e i n tr o d u c e s t w o c o n c e p ts t h a t
p e r h a p s w e m i g h t b e n e f i t fr o m a n e x p la n a t io n o f .
10

He speaks of a

c o n c e p t o f r e b a s e li n i n g t h e p r ic e t h a t i s o n t h e o n e h a n d .

O n th e

o th e r h a n d h e s p e a k s o f a c o n c e p t o f w a lk f o r w a r d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s h e d o e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Now before we deal with what he says are you
f a m ili a r w i t h b o t h c o n c e p ts ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I h a v e a v i e w o n b o t h c o n c e p ts .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : O k a y c a n y o u th e n p e r h a p s fo r e d i fi c a t i o n te ll
u s w h a t r e b a s e l in i n g m e a n s a n d i n v o lv e s ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

C e r t a i n ly.

I n m y u n d e r s t a n d in g

r e b a s e li n i n g w o u l d i m p ly t h e f o ll o w i n g . I h a v e th e p r i c e o f a n a r t ic le
20

f o r i n t h i s i n s t a n c e a l o c o m o ti v e w h i c h is p e r h a p s t w o y e a r s i n th e p a s t .
I w i s h n o w a n d t h a t is a l o c o m o tiv e w h i c h a n d le t u s c a l l i t a n o v e r t h e
c o u n t e r p r i c e fi t f o r p u r p o s e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h a t I c a n ta k e i t o ff, p u t i t o n th e
r a i ls a n d it w o u l d o p e r a t e .

I w i s h to u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r ic e o f t h a t

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
lo c o m o t iv e to d a y a g a i n a n o v e r t h e c o u n t e r p r i c e i t f o r p u r p o s e
lo c o m o t iv e .

O n e e x a m i n e s t h e p r i c e o f t h e l o c o m o t iv e t w o y e a r s a g o

o n e u s e d k n o w n f a c t o r s s u c h a s e s c a l a ti o n a n d f o r e i g n – m o v e m e n t i n
foreign exchange rates.

O n e a p p l ie s t h o s e f a c to r s a g a i n s t k n o w n

t a b le s a n d h i s t o r ic a l d a ta t o e s c a la t e a n d r e b a s e l i n e t h e p r i c e t o
t o d a y ’s d a te .

S o o n e t a k e s t h e h is t o r i c a l o v e r t h e c o u n t p r i c e u s i n g

t h o s e k n o w n f a c t o r s o n e c a n d o a c a l c u l a t io n t o b r i n g i t t o t o d a y ’s d a te
w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o th a t d a t a . T h a t is t h e r e b a s e li n i n g t o t o d a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Th e s e c o n d p o i n t w a s t h e w a lk

forward.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I f I w i s h to n o w p r e d ic t – p r e d i c t

t h e p r i c e o f t h e l o c o m o t iv e in t h e fu t u r e I h a v e t o d a y ’s p r i c e u s in g
a s s u m p t io n s ,

reasonable

a s s u m p ti o n s

on

e s c a la t io n

and

using

p r o j e c ti o n s o f f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e m o v e m e n t s in t o th e fu t u r e w h i c h
p r o j e c ti o n s w o u l d b e o b t a i n e d fr o m f o r e x fr o m b a n k s a n d s i m i la r
s o u r c e s . O n e w o u l d t h e n d o a d e te r m i n is ti c c a lc u l a ti o n a n d I s tr e s s t h e
w o r d d e t e r m in is ti c c a lc u l a ti o n t o a r r iv e a t a f u t u r e p r ic e o f t h e
20

lo c o m o t iv e .

O f c o u r s e t h is is s ti ll s u b j e c t t o t h e – a s s u m p t io n s o n

e s c a l a t io n m a y b e m a r g i n a lly o u t a n d o f c o u r s e t h e f u r t h e r o n e p r o j e c t s
in t o t h e fu t u r e t h e g r e a t e r t h e r i s k i n te r ms o f t h e fo r e i g n e x c h a n g e
a s s u m p t io n p r e d ic ti n g th e r a n d / d o l la r r a t e fo r e x a m p l e w h il e y o u i n to
t h e f u tu r e is q u i te d i ffe r e n t t o p r e d ic t in g i t s e v e n y e a r s i n t o t h e fu t u r e .
B u t th e y a r e d e t e r m i n is t ic c a l c u la t io n s b a s e d o n d a ta p r o v i d e d b y

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
r e l i a b le t h ir d p a r t ie s .

T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e t e r m w a lk

f o r w a r d t o a r r i v e a t a p r ic e o f a n a r ti c l e i n th is c a s e a l o c o m o t iv e i n to
the future.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o th e p r o c e s s o f w a lk fo r w a r d t h e n i f I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c tl y is t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t th e fu t u r e p r ic e w i ll b e .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o t h e p r o c e s s w i ll t e ll m e w h a t t h e p r i c e

ought to be.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct.
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Thank you.

N o w w h e n – i f I r e f e r to

p a r a g r a p h 6 o f M r L a h e r ’s s t a te m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 3 6 a n d I a m r e a d i n g
s e c o n d s e n t e n c e w h ic h i s a b o u t fo u r t h l in e i n C h a ir.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W h e n h e s ta t e s a n d I q u o t e :
“ M r Si n g h t o l d m e t o p r e p a r e a ‘ w a l k fo r w a r d ’
c a l c u l a ti o n fr o m t h e b u s in e s s c a s e p r ic e t o t h e fi n a l
c o n tr a c te d p r ic e th e w a l k fo r w a r d w o u l d e n ta il t a k in g
t h e p r i c e a s r e f l e c te d i n t h e b u s in e s s c a s e o f 3 4
m il li o n p e r l o c o m o ti v e a n d a d d i n g o r s u b tr a c ti n g a n y
20

e l e m e n ts th a t i m p a c t t h e p r ic e t o t h a t p r i c e i n o r d e r
t o e n d u p a t th e fi n a l c o n tr a c te d p r i c e . ”
D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e – o f w a l k f o r w a r d a s
you just explained?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I s e e i n t h is p a r a g r a p h th a t h e e x p l a i n s –

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
w h e r e a s y o u s a y t h e w a lk f o r w a r d h e l p s u s d e t e r m i n e th e f u t u r e p r ic e
h e e x p l a in s t h a t in t h i s in s ta n c e th e r e w a s a f i n a l c o n tr a c t e d p r ic e a n d
t h e n h e w a s r e q u e s te d t o c o n d u c t a w a lk f o r w a r d t o w a r d s t h a t p r i c e .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d

in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h i s s e n t e n c e th a t t h i s w a l k fo r w a r d w a s n o t a
d e t e r m i n a t io n o f t h e f in a l p r ic e i t w a s a j u s t if ic a ti o n o f th e fi n a l p r i c e t o
tr y a n d fi n d a j u s t i fic a ti o n o f th e f in a l p r i c e . N o t a d e t e r m in a ti o n o f t h e
fi n a l p r i c e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w r e m e m b e r in g th a t in y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u
10

h a d s a i d y o u w e r e fi n d i n g d i ff ic u l ty i n j u s ti fy i n g th e i n c r e a s e b y a
b i ll io n o f t h a t p r i c e .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
M r L a h e r ’s s t a te m e n t .

I f y o u t h e n t u r n o v e r le a f to p a r a g r a p h 3 8 o f
M r L a h e r s ta t e s t h a t M r S i n g h p r o v i d e d t h e

g u i d a n c e f o r th e r e m a in in g e l e m e n ts t h a t m a d e u p t h e p r i c e o f 4 4
m il li o n . A n d in t h is r e g a r d h e r e f e r s t o a n n e x u r e Y L 2 5 o f h is s e c o n d
s t a te m e n t w h ic h w o u l d a p p e a r i n y o u r r e c o r d a t – s t a r ti n g a t p a g e 4 6 o f
M r L a h e r ’s s t a te m e n t .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Ja.
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
sorry table 1.

A n d i n t h i s r e g a r d h e r e fe r s u s t o t a b l e 2 –

I t is a m e m o r a n d u m h e r e fe r s u s t o t a b l e 1 o f th a t

document.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Page 50.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t p a g e 5 0 . N o w if y o u l o o k a t t h a t t a b l e a r e
y o u f a m i li a r w i th w h a t is – w it h th e c a l c u l a ti o n s s e t o u t t h e r e i n ?

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : W i t h t h e f o r m a t o f t h e c a lc u l a ti o n s
yes.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s . S o w e k n o w n o w M r L a h e r s a y s :
“ I n s o fa r a s – a n d b e f o r e I d o t h a t .

A r e a d in g o f ta b l e 1 h a s g o t

in d i c a t io n s o f c o s ts – v a r io u s c o s ts t a k e n i n to c o n s i d e r a t io n t o a r r iv e a t
t h e t o t a l f ig u r e o f 4 4 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w o n t h e – a f t e r th e d e s c r ip t io n o f th e c o s t
h e t h e n h a s i n d e s c e n d i n g o r d e r i t e m s n u m b e r e d A t o F.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w if w e r e fe r b a c k t o h is s t a te m e n t h e t e lls
in s o f a r a s i t e m s C , D , E , F o n t a b l e 1 – t h is t a b l e w e a r e l o o k i n g a t
t h e s e w e r e p r o v id e d b y M r S i n g h ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : S in g h g u i d a n c e o n t h o s e e l e m e n ts .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Th a t m a d e u p th e p r i c e w e r e

p r o v i d e d b y M r S in g h , y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y n o w d o e s th a t t a b l e a s s is t y o u in

d e t e r m i n i n g h o w t h e p r ic e o f 4 4 m i ll io n w a s a r r iv e d a t?
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No it does not.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W h y n o t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W e d e a lt w i t h t h is i n m y o r i g i n a l

e v i d e n c e w h e r e I d i s c u s s e d t h i s t a b l e i n s o m e d e t a i ls a n d s a i d t h a t I
c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d th e d e r iv a ti o n o f t h e s e f ig u r e s f r o m d a ta th a t I
c o u l d g l e a n , u n d e r s ta n d a n d r e a s o n a b il i ty b a s e d a s s u m p ti o n s . W h e r e

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
w e s t a n d n o w a n d t h r o u g h w h a t w e h a v e in th e s t a te m e n t fr o m M r L a h e r
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h e r e is n o t h i n g w h ic h a d d s t o t h e
t a b le o r e n a b l e s a f u r th e r d e te r m in a ti o n o f t h e t a b l e in t h e d e t e r m i n i s tic
m a n n e r o f a w a lk f o r w a r d w h ic h I w a s m e n ti o n i n g . N o n e o f t h o s e – t h a t
d a t a o r m e t h o d o lo g y f o r a c a l c u l a ti o n o f t h a t w a lk f o r w a r d i s p r o v id e d .
I t is c o v e r e d a s I i n m y r e a d in g o f th is u n d e r t h e g u i d a n c e o f M r Si n g h
who provided those elements.

B u t i t d o e s n o t e l u c id a t e o r a d d t o a n

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f h o w t h e fi n a l 4 4 m i ll io n w a s d e r i v e d a t o t h e r t h a n
10

t h e s e fi g u r e s w e h a v e n o u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f h o w th e fi g u r e s w e r e
d e r iv e d

in

a

d e t e r m i n is t ic

or

t r a c e a b le

m a n n e r.

That

is

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s th e c o n c e p t o f a w a l k f o r w a r d m e a n t t o h e lp w h e n
y o u w a n t t o l o o k a t h o w m u c h a p r o d u c t is lik e l y t o c o s t i n th e f u t u r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s i n d e e d C h a ir. T h e c o n c e p t o f
a w a l k f o r w a r d p e r h a p s n o t in t h a t te r m b u t is w h a t w e w o u ld u s e w h e n
w e a r e c o s ti n g a p r o j e c t t o d e t e r m in e t h e f in a l e s ti m a t e d t o t a l c o s t o f
t h e p r o je c t .

W e h a v e a c o s t e l e m e n t i n – o f a n i te m i n t h e p a s t . W e

b r i n g i t fo r w a r d to t o d a y ’s c o s t i n a b u s i n e s s c a s e s c e n a r i o a n d th e n
20

r e c o g n is in g th a t i t m ig h t b e d e li v e r e d o v e r t w o o r th r e e y e a r s i n to t h e
f u t u r e w e th e n d o th o s e d e t e r m i n is t ic p r o j e c ti o n s a s to a f u t u r e c o s t
a d d a s m a ll a m o u n t – a d d a n a m o u n t fo r c o n ti n g e n c y b e c a u s e t h e r e is
in e v it a b l y s o m e r is k a n d u n c e r t a i n ty r e l a t e d t o [i n d i s t i n c t ] f u tu r e th e is
a d d e d t o th a t a m o u n t a n d th a t i s t h e n w h a t w e w o u ld s a y is t h e
e s ti m a t e d to t a l c o s t t o t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . T h e c o r r e c tn e s s o f t h a t f ig u r e

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
is i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e i t d e te r m in e s th e c a s h fl o w o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n
w h ic h i s v i t a l f o r i t – in a s u s t a i n a b le b u s i n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

S o y e s t h e c o n c e p t o f t h e w a lk

f o r w a r d , th e d e t e r m i n is t ic fo r w a r d l o o k i n g v ie w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : F o r w a r d l o o k i n g d e t e r m i n a t io n o f a
p r i c e is a b s o lu t e l y v i t a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o in t h i s i n s t a n c e t h e n t o s u m m a r i s e M r

L a h e r ’s e v i d e n c e w h a t h e w a s r e q u e s t e d t o d o a n d w h a t h e d i d w a s t o
w a lk f o r w a r d t o a c o n t r a c t e d p r ic e ?
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

To w a lk f o r w a r d t o a p r e -

d e t e r m i n e d p r i c e o f t h a t 4 4 m il li o n w h i c h h e w a s g i v e n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o t h e w a l k f o r w a r d in th is i n s t a n c e i f – w o u ld
I b e c o r r e c t i n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e w a l k f o r w a r d d i d n o t d e te r m i n e t h e
price?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

In y o u r e x p e r ie n c e is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s

d o n e w h e r e y o u d e t e r m i n e a p r i c e a t w h i c h to c o n tr a c t a n d th e n y o u
a tt e m p t to w a l k f o r w a r d t o th a t p r ic e ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I h a v e n o t c o m e a c r o s s th a t

m e t h o d o l o g y i n t h e p a s t . I t i s m o s t u n u s u a l – h i g h l y u n u s u a l. In f a c t I
w o u ld g o s o fa r a s t o s a y i r r e g u l a r b e c a u s e w e a r e n o w tr y i n g t o j u s t i fy
a p r i c e w h ic h h a s b e e n g iv e n a s h e m e n t i o n e d in h is s t a t e m e n t e a r l i e r.

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
T h a t h e w a s g iv e n t h e p r i c e h e i s n o w tr y in g t o j u s t i fy th e p r ic e a s i n
t h e w a lk f o r w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I ta k e it th a t t h e r e o u g h t t o b e n o p r o b l e m w i t h
the idea of saying look we have already determined the price for this
b u t m a y b e t h e r e is s o m e t h in g w e s h o u l d h a v e d o n e b e f o r e w h i c h w e d id
n o t d o – th a t is t h e w a lk f o r w a r d . L e t u s tr y a n d s e e w h e r e w e w o u l d
h a v e a r r iv e d – a t w h a t p r ic e w e w o u l d h a v e a r r iv e d i f w e h a d d o n e t h e
w a lk fo r w a r d b e f o r e d e te r m i n in g th e p r ic e b e c a u s e i f w e d o t h a t n o w
t h e r e s u l t m i g h t a s s is t u s t o s e e h o w f a r w e a r e fr o m w h e r e w e w o u l d
10

h a v e b e e n h a d w e d o n e th e w a l k f o r w a r d . W h ic h m ig h t g o t o t h e p o i n t
y o u m a d e e a r li e r o n t h a t t h e y w e r e t r y i n g t o – th e y w e r e u s in g t h e w a lk
f o r w a r d t o j u s ti f y t h e p r i c e .

B u t in p r in c i p l e i s th e r e a n y o b j e c t io n t o

t h a t a c c e p ti n g th a t n o r m a l ly i t i s s u p p o s e d to h a p p e n b e f o r e b u t i f y o u
h a v e a lr e a d y d e t e r m in e d i t a n d m a y b e o b j e c ti o n s a r e b e i n g r a i s e d a n d
y o u w a n t to s e e h o w m u c h d i ff e r e n c e i t w o u l d h a v e m a d e a n y w a y,
w o u ld t h a t b e a p r o b le m w i th t h a t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I w o u l d r e s p o n d t o t h a t M r C h a ir i n
t w o p o i n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Mr L a h e r in h i s s ta t e m e n t p o i n ts

o u t in h i s a n n e x u r e 2 4 t h a t h e a lr e a d y h a d a l e s s e r p r i c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I f I m a y C h a ir a n d t h a t 2 4 a p p e a r s a t y o u r

p a g e 4 4 to M r L a h e r ’s s e c o n d s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

H e t h e n p o in t s o u t f u r t h e r o n h i s

s t a te m e n t a n d I t a k e o n e t h e r e t o p a g e 5 o f h i s s ta t e m e n t p a r a g r a p h s
27 and 28.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I n p a r a g r a p h 2 7 h e s ta t e s t h a t t h e
n e g o ti a ti o n s t h e c h a ir m a n p i tc h e d a p r ic e o f 3 8 .5 .

C S R r e q u e s te d a

p r i c e o f 4 9 a n d r e f u s e d t o c o m e d o w n . I m o v e t h e n d o w n to M r L a h e r ’s
s t a te m e n t p a r a g r a p h 2 8 s u b s e q u e n tly a d a y o r tw o l a te r M r S i n g h t o ld
u s t h a t th e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e M r M o le f e h a d a g r e e d u p o n t h e
10

p a y m e n t t e r m s a n d a p r ic e o f 4 4 m i ll io n . N o w – t h e n m o v i n g f o r w a r d t o
h is s t a t e m e n t – t o M r L a h e r ’s s t a te m e n t o n 3 6 w h ic h w e h a v e j u s t b e e n
d e a li n g w it h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

He was post event asked to

p e r f o r m a w a lk f o r w a r d t o j u s ti fy t h e 4 4 m il li o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : H e h a d a lr e a d y d e t e r m i n e d a l o w e r
p r i c e . Th e in d ic a t i o n s a r e in h is s t a te m e n t th a t h e h a d a lr e a d y a d v is e d
h e r e h e t h o u g h t t h e p r ic e w a s i n f a c t e x c e s s iv e i n t e r m s o f i n c o r r e c t
20

e x c h a n g e r a t e s b e i n g u s e d . H e i s n o w p o s t e v e n t a s k e d to p e r fo r m t h e
w a lk f o r w a r d t o j u s ti fy t h e 4 4 m i ll i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t m a y b e I s h o u ld s a y i n t h e o r y c a n i t b e d o n e – c a n
a w a lk f o r w a r d b e d o n e w h e r e t h e p r i c e h a s a lr e a d y b e e n d e t e r m i n e d
f o r p u r p o s e s o f s e e i n g h o w m u c h d i ff e r e n c e t h e r e is b e t w e e n th e p r ic e
t h a t h a s b e e n – t h a t h a s a lr e a d y b e e n d e te r m i n e d a n d t h e p r i c e th a t

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
w o u ld h a v e b e e n d e t e r m i n e d i f th e w a lk f o r w a r d h a d b e e n d o n e
ti m e o u s ly ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

O h y e s t h a t is – t h a t is c e r ta in ly

p o s s i b le . I f w e h a v e th e – w e h a v e t h e - f o r a n e x a m p le in t h i s c a s e w e
h a v e t h e 4 4 m il li o n a lr e a d y g iv e n . I t i s p o s s ib l e s u b s e q u e n t ly t o d o a
w a lk f o r w a r d in t h e s e n s e t o s a y w e ll w h a t s h o u l d t h e p r ic e h a v e b e e n
d o n e . T h a t h a s b e e n d o n e o n a n u m b e r o f o c c a s io n s in t h i s o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :
10

A n d w e w o u l d h a v e s e e n th a t

fi g u r e h a s c o m e o u t in t h e F u n d u d z i R e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

Even if we were to accept Mr

L a h e r ’s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

F ig u r e s a t f a c e v a lu e t h e y w o u l d

c o m e o u t a t a lo w e r p r ic e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I a ls o c a m e o u t a t d i ffe r e n t

v a r ia t io n s o f t h e p r ic e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

S o y e s t h e y in d ic a t e a w a lk

f o r w a r d h a s in d i c a t e d a d i ff e r e n t p r ic e t o th a t w h ic h w a s f in a l ly
c o n tr a c te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A b u t th e n i f I m a y f o l lo w u p o n th a t ? Yo u w a lk

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
f o r w a r d t o d e t e r m in e w h a t t h e p r ic e w o u l d b e o r in t h i s c a s e s h o u ld
have been?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Should have been yes.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: As a concept?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : Yo u d o n o t w a lk f o r w a r d to w a r d s a d e t e r m i n e d
p r i c e t h a t is n o w w a lk fo r w a r d a n y m o r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D : T h a t i s n o t a w a lk f o r w a r d . Th a t is
a j u s ti f ic a t i o n .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h a t i s a p o s t f a c t j u s ti f ic a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t a w a lk b a c k w a r d s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : It is a w a lk b a c k w a r d s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : M a y b e a s i d e w a y w a lk C h a ir.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

M r C h a ir I t h i n k y o u h a v e

s u m m a r i s e d i t b e a u t i fu ll y. A w a lk f o r w a r d w o u ld b e p r io r t o t h e e v e n t t o
d e t e r m i n e t h e p r ic e . P o s t e v e n t w o u l d b e w a lk b a c k w a r d t o ju s t i fy i t . I t
t h i n k y o u s u m m a r is e d i t b e a u t if u lly.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

S o t h e n w e h a v e Y L 2 4 t o Mr L a h e r ’s s e c o n d

s t a te m e n t w h ic h i s h is o w n c a lc u la t io n s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W o u l d y o u s a y w h a t is h a p p e n in g in Y L 2 4 is a
“ w a lk f o r w a r d ” ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

Y L 2 4 “ w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w a lk

f o r w a r d ” i t w a s p r i o r t o t h e e v e n t p r i o r t o t h e 4 4 t h a t w a s a w a lk

Page 15 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
forward.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o h i s w a l k f o r w a r d l a n d e d h i m a t 4 1 m il li o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : O k a y. Yo u t o o k u s t h e n t o t a b l e 2 – t a b l e 1 o f
YL25.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W h i c h M r L a h e r c r o s s - r e fe r s t o r e g a r d i n g h o w
4 4 m i ll io n w a s a r r iv e d a t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u j u s t c o m m e n t e d to t h e C h a i r th a t y o u

h a v e d e a l t w i th t h a t ta b le p r e v i o u s ly i n y o u r e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h e C h a i r
a n d i t is p r e c is e l y t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h a t t a b l e t h a t y o u s a y m a k e i t
d i ff ic u l t fo r y o u to ju s ti fy t h is in c r e a s e o f a b il li o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : B e c a u s e i t w a s a w a lk b a c k w a r d s .
I t w a s e x c e s s i v e a n d d i ff ic u l t to ju s t i fy.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s . N o w – n o w t h a t M r L a h e r h a s r e s p o n d e d
t o y o u r e v id e n c e a n d h a s g iv e n y o u t h e t w o – th e t a b l e a t Y L 2 5 a n d
Y L 2 4 a r e y o u i n a b e t te r p o s it i o n t o ju s t i fy ?

H a s y o u r p o s i t io n

i m p r o v e d fr o m w h e n y o u l a s t a p p e a r e d b e f o r e t h e C h a ir ?
20

MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

Not at all.

I am in no better

p o s i ti o n t o j u s t i fy t h is t a b l e . T h e r e i s n o a d d i ti o n a l d a t a o r d e te r m i n is tic
c a l c u l a ti o n t o e n a b l e m e t o s u p p o r t th is t a b l e s o I s ta n d b y m y p o i n t
t h a t it w a s e x c e s s iv e a n d d i ff ic u l t t o j u s t if y.

W e h a v e n o d a ta o r

d e t e r m i n i s t ic c a lc u la t io n e n a b li n g o r i n f o r mi n g u s o n t h e m a k e u p o f
t h e s e fi g u r e s .

Page 16 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : O th e r th a n t h a t t h e y w e r e p r o v i d e d
u n d e r th e g u id a n c e o f M r Si n g h .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W h ic h d o e s n o t h e l p y o u t o c a lc u la t e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o t a c a l c u l a ti o n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. U n l e s s t h e r e i s
a n y th in g I h a v e o m it t e d I t h in k w e h a v e d e a l t n o w c o m p r e h e n s i v e ly w i th
M r L a h e r ’s r e s p o n s e to y o u r e v id e n c e r e g a r d in g t h e u n j u s ti f ia b il it y o f
t h e in c r e a s e o f t h e E T C .
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I b e l ie v e s o .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W i t h – o k a y.

Then we move onto the next

t o p ic th a t Mr L a h e r d e a ls w i t h a n d t h i s is w h a t I h a v e – I h a v e t e r m e d
t h e f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e i s s u e t h e u s e o f t h e Ye n a n d th e D o ll a r in t h e 1 0 0
a c q u is i ti o n . Yo u d e a l w i t h t h is fir s t ly a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 6 7 i n B B 4 [ a ] a t
p a g e 1 6 a n d i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u h a v e a q u o ta t io n .

T h i s q u o t a ti o n

y o u g e t f r o m p a r a g r a p h 5 . a o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m , t h e b u s in e s s c a s e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: And …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Of the memorandum yes.
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

A n d y o u – i t s t a te s t h a t t h e fo r e ig n

e x c h a n g e r a te s u s e d w a s – t h e f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e u s e d w a s t h e
J a p a n e s e Ye n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h e n it d e a l s w i t h t h e d e p r e c i a t i o n o f th e
R a n d a g a i n s t t h e J a p a n e s e Ye n a n d t h e r e f o r e t h a t p a r a g r a p h s u g g e s ts

Page 17 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
t h a t a n a d j u s t m e n t m u s t b e m a d e a c c o r d in g l y.

Yo u c o n c l u d e a t t h a t

p a r a g r a p h 6 7 t h a t w h a t y o u d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d i s t h e s e lo c o m o t iv e s
w e r e b e in g a c q u ir e d fr o m C h i n a S o u t h R a i l w h ic h tr a d e s i n D o l la r s , U S
D o ll a r s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : A n d y e t t h e c a lc u l a ti o n s i n t h is b u s in e s s c a s e
a r e i n J a p a n e s e Ye n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s
ADV
10

MAHLAPE

SELLO:

W h ic h

is

what

th e

original

in t e n d e d

m a n u f a c t u r e r M i ts u i tr a d e s in .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d y o u c o n c l u d e t h e r e b y i n v i ti n g b o th M r

S i n g h a n d Mr L a h e r t o t a l k t o t h is a n o m a ly.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o t h a t is w h a t y o u t e s ti f ie d to la s t t i m e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

Mr L a h e r d e a ls w i th th a t a s p e c t o f y o u r

e v i d e n c e s ta r t in g fr o m h is p a r a g r a p h 3 5 o f t h e s ta t e – o f h is s e c o n d
s t a te m e n t a n d th e s e c o n d h a l f o f 3 6 .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV

MAHLAPE

SELLO:

Now

le t

us

look

at

each

paragraph

in d e p e n d e n tly. M y r e a d i n g o f 3 5 a n d y o u h a v e i t b e fo r e y o u , y o u w i ll
c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g . Th e g is t o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h is t h a t a n d I a m
r e a d in g t h e f o u r t h s e n t e n c e w h ic h is a b o u t th e fi f t h li n e a n d I q u o t e :
“At no stage did Mr Callard raise any queries with me about the draft

Page 18 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
m e m o r a n d u m o r i ts c o n t e n t s in c l u d i n g t h e i s s u e s h e r a is e d in h is
s t a te m e n t to th e c o m m i s s i o n a b o u t t h e u s e o f Ye n t o r e b a s e – to
r e b a s e - li n e t h e p r ic e . ”
I w il l s t o p t h e r e – e n d o f q u o t e .

I n t h is p a r a g r a p h h a s M r L a h e r

a d d r e s s e d t h e a n o m a l y y o u h a v e i d e n t i fi e d in y o u r p a r a g r a p h 6 7 in y o u r
v ie w ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o th e a n o m a l y is n o t a d d r e s s e d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H e i s – i n h is – p o i n ti n g o u t t h e C h a ir t h a t y o u
f a il e d t o r a i s e t h a t a n o m a ly t o h i m o r b e fo r e h i m w h e n y o u b e c a m e
10

a w a r e o f i t w h e n y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o c a l c u l a t e t h e N P V.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : In t h a t Mr L a h e r i s c o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I d i d n o t r a is e th e is s u e o f t h e Ye n
with him at the time of the memorandum.

I c o n f in e my s e l f t o t h e

o r i g in a l r e q u e s t w h ic h w a s to r e c a l c u la t e t h e N P V w h ic h I d i d a n d I
f o u n d t h a t N P V p o s i ti v e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

H o w e v e r t h e f a c t t h a t I f a il e d t o

r a i s e t h a t a n o m a ly w i th M r L a h e r a t t h e t i m e I r e j e c t t h e c o n c e p t o r th e
20

n o t io n t h a t m y f a il u r e to r a is e t h a t a n o m a ly w i th M r L a h e r r e s u l t e d i n
t h is

f in a l a n o m a ly

p r o p a g a t in g

or

being

forward or

th a t I w a s

r e s p o n s i b l e p e r s e f o r t h a t a n o m a l y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r l a t e r o n i n h is s ta t e m e n t
M r L a h e r d e a ls w i th th e c r i t ic is m i n s u b s t a n c e o r n o t . B u t I g u e s s t h a t

Page 19 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
m a y b e p a r t o f w h a t h e i s s a y in g is , i f i t w a s w r o n g h e w o u l d h a v e
e x p e c te d y o u t o h a v e r a i s e d i t a t t h e t i m e a n d w h y d id y o u n o t r a i s e it ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I h a d r a i s e d a lr e a d y th e – th a t t h e
a w a r d o f t h e lo c o m o t iv e s to C S R w a s i n m y o p i n io n f la w e d .

I had

a lr e a d y r a is e d th a t w i t h M r G a m a a n d Mr G ia n n i a n d I h a v e t e s ti f ie d t o
t h a t e a r l i e r.

T h e a w a r d w a s n o w a u f a i t a c c o m p l i.

When the

m e m o r a n d u m c a m e t h r o u g h t o j u s t i fy th e p r i c e I h a d a l r e a d y r a i s e d m y
c o n c e r n s . I d i d n o t a n d I c o n f in e d m y s e l f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

To t h e N P V o n l y w h i c h o f w h a t I

was asked to do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W a s t h e N P V s ti ll p o s i t iv e ?

I

r e c a l c u l a t e d t h e N P V.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: That…
CHAIRPERSON:

S o b a s ic a l ly th e e x p l a n a t io n i s y o u h a d e x p r e s s e d

y o u r o b je c ti o n s th a t th is w h o le t h i n g w a s fl a w e d b u t i t w a s b e i n g
p u r s u e d a n d y o u c o n fi n e d y o u r s e l f t o …
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I c o n fi n e d m y s e l f to t h e N P V y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : It – a n d I r e fl e c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h a t th e – I r e fl e c t e d a f t e r w a r d s

c e r t a i n l y th a t t h e j u s ti fi c a t io n f o r t h e p r ic e i n c r e a s e i n – f o r t h e p r ic e

Page 20 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
in c r e a s e w h e n it w a s m o t iv a te d o n Ye n – w h e n i t w a s a C h in e s e
lo c o m o t iv e w h e r e t h e fo r e ig n c o m p o n e n t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n D o ll a r s
t h a t w a s c e r t a in ly s tr a n g e b e c a u s e i t a p p e a r s t o a c c o u n t f o r a p o s t
ju s t i fic a ti o n f o r t h e 4 4 mi ll i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I d o n o t k n o w i f t h is is a fa ir q u e s ti o n to p u t t o
y o u Mr C a l la r d b u t I w il l n o n e t h e l e s s a n d i f y o u c o n s i d e r i t u n f a i r
p l e a s e s ta t e s o I w i ll w i t h d r a w it a c c o r d in g ly.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Right.
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o y o u r a is e a n a n o m a l y o f u s i n g t h e Ye n

w h e n y o u a r e c o n tr a c t in g fr o m a D o l l a r b a s e d m a n u fa c tu r e r ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M r L a h e r ’s r e s p o n s e t h e r e to is b u t y o u h a d

t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t i n d ic a t e d t h a t Ye n w a s b e in g u s e d t o c a lc u la t e …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d y o u f a i le d to r a i s e i t t o m e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O r w i th m e ?

I a m l o o k i n g a t M r L a h e r ’s

o r i g in a l s t a te m e n t a n d h e – y o u d o n o t h a v e t o g o t h e r e . I a m r e a d in g
20

fr o m i t . H e t e l ls th e C h a i r t h a t h e i s a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t . H e h a s
b e e n e m p l o y e d a t Tr a n s n e t s in c e S e p t e m b e r 2 0 0 5 w i t h i n t h e F in a n c e
D e p a r t m e n t d is c h a r g i n g d i ffe r e n t fu n c t io n s o v e r t h e p e r i o d i n c lu d in g
fi n a n c i a l r e p o r ti n g , p r o c u r e m e n t a n d t h e li k e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w w h a t is y o u r t a k e to a s u g g e s ti o n t h a t

Page 21 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
y o u f a i l e d Tr a n s n e t b y y o u – Mr C a l la r d t h e E n g i n e e r – o f n o t b r i n g in g
t o th e a tt e n ti o n o f t h e C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n ta n t e m p l o y e d a s s u c h in
Tr a n s n e t w i t h s u c h e x p e r i e n c e t h a t w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g i n t h i s
b u s i n e s s c a s e is t h a t t h e y w e r e u s i n g a Ye n i n s te a d o f a D o l la r w h e r e
t h e m a n u fa c t u r e r i s D o ll a r b a s e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : F o r g i v e m e . I – I t h i n k I a ll u d e d t o
t h a t e a r l ie r w h e n I s a i d I r e j e c t th e n o t i o n o r th e i n s i n u a ti o n th a t I m i g h t
h a v e b e e n a c c o u n t a b l e fo r t h i s a n o m a l y. I th i n k y o u h a v e h i g h li g h t e d i n
– i n w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t s t a t e d v e r y s u c c in c t ly th a t o t h e r s w i t h p e r h a p s
10

t h e fi n a n c i a l b a c k g r o u n d s h o u ld e q u a ll y h a v e r a is e d th a t a n o m a ly a n d
b e e n a w a r e o f t h a t a n o m a l y p a r t ic u l a r ly a s t h e y w e r e b e e n i n ti m a t e ly
in v o lv e d in t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

I – I g u e s s M s S e ll o is a s k i n g w h e t h e r y o u t h in k a

C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t o l d b y a n E n g in e e r t h a t t h i s
w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e i n a p a r ti c u l a r c u r r e n c y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I – I w o u ld - I w o u l d t h in k a p e r s o n
w i t h a q u a li fi c a t io n o f a C h a r t e r e d Ac c o u n t a n t s h o u l d h a v e r a i s e d t h a t –
id e n t i fi e d t h a t a n o m a ly in – i n t h e i r o w n w h ic h b u t I – I m u s t a d d t h e n
20

w h ic h M r S in g h – w h ic h M r L a h e r d i d to M r S in g h . H e m e n ti o n s i t i n h is
s t a te m e n t b u t h e w a s th e n g iv e n – h e u s e d th e w o r d s – i f I m a y …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e w i ll – w e w i ll g e t t o t h a t …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Ja.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Aspect yes.

A c c o u n t a n t h e s h o u l d h a v e i d e n ti f ie d .

In fact you say as a Chartered
Yo u s a id h e w a s w o r k i n g w i t h

Page 22 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
t h is m e m o r a n d u m . D a r e I s a y h e s h o u ld h a v e u n c o v e r e d t h e a n o m a l y
before you did before the – the Commission?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Thank you.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s I a m .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u r e m e m b e r I h a d s a i d t h a t h e r e s p o n d s t o
t h is i s s u e a t h i s p a r a g r a p h s 3 5 , 3 6 . S o w e h a v e d i s p o s e d o f 3 5 . L e t
u s l o o k a t h i s p a r a g r a p h 3 6 a n d i n p a r t i c u l a r ly h e p i c k s i t u p i n th e
second half of paragraph 36.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O v e r l e a f a n d i f y o u c o u l d j u s t c o n s id e r w h a t

h e s t a t e s a n d c o m m e n t t h e r e o n . I d o n o t w a n t t o s u m m a r is e b e c a u s e
t h a t i n m y v i e w is a c t u a ll y t h e e x p l a n a ti o n o f w h y t h e Ye n is u s e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h a t i s t h e e x p l a n a ti o n a n d ta k i n g
fr o m t h e fi r s t p o i n t o f M r – fr o m t h e f ir s t l i n e a t t h e to p o f p a g e – a t th e
…
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Page 8.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : To p o f p a g e 8 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Where:
“ S i n g h e x p la i n e d t h a t t h e a s s u m p t io n s u s e d i n t h e
business case was

a R a n d / Ye n r a t e a n d

th a t

b u s i n e s s c a s e w a s b a s e d o n t h e p r ic e o b t a i n e d
fr o m M i ts u i . ”
W h i l e Mr L a h e r h a d r a i s e d i t w i th – I u n d e r s t a n d – r a i s e d i t w it h

Page 23 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M r Si n g h .
“ M r S in g h t h r o u g h h i s e x p la n a ti o n s a i d y o u w il l
c o n ti n u e t o u s e th e Ye n b a s e d r a t e . ”
H o w e v e r i t s t il l d o e s n o t e x p l a i n th e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Before – before you go – before you go any

f u r th e r I s e e f o l lo w in g o n w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t r e a d M r L a h e r s ta t e s :
“ S i n g h e x p l a i n e d th a t t h e b u s in e s s c a s e w a s b a s e d
in Ye n a n d a s s u c h a s t h e p r i c e m u s t b e e s c a l a t e d
f o r t h e Ye n m o v e m e n t fr o m t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e
10

s u b m is s io n … ”
A n d i n th is r e g a r d h e r e fe r s to Y L 2 3 p a g e 2 0 .
“ … t o t h e d a t e o f c o n tr a c ti n g i n o r d e r to s h o w t h e
i m p a c t o f t h e c h a n g e i n t h e R a n d / Ye n r a t e o n t h e
business case price.”
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

B u t w h a t I s til l f a i l t o u n d e r s t a n d

in t h is is I h a v e a p r i c e fo r l o c o m o t iv e . I a m n o w b u y i n g a D o ll a r – a
D o ll a r b a s e d l o c o m o t iv e i n t o th e f u tu r e w h y I s h o u l d n o w b e u s in g Ye n
in t o th e fu t u r e i n j u s t i fic a ti o n o r d e t e r m in i n g a D o ll a r b a s e d l o c o m o tiv e .
I s ti ll d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n o m a ly a n d I s ti ll h a v e n o t h i n g i n h e r e to
20

a d d r e s s t h a t a n o m a ly o t h e r t h a n t h a t th e fi r s t li n e .
“ M r S in g h e x p l a i n e d t h a t t h e a s s u m p t i o n s u s e d i n
t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e a n d s h o u l d b e c a r r i e d fo r w a r d . ”
N o t h i n g fu r t h e r to m e e x p l a i n s t h a t a n o m a l y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d e a r l ie r y o u – y o u i n d ic a t e d t o t h e C h a ir

t h a t i n tr u th M r L a h e r a p p e a r s t o h a v e p ic k e d u p th is a n o m a ly e a r ly o n

Page 24 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
…
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And

at

that

very

same

paragraph

36

c o n ti n u i n g t h e n i n th a t p a r a g r a p h h e s t a t e s a n d I q u o t e :
“ I p o in t e d o u t th a t th e r e w o u l d b e m o r e th a n o n e
c u r r e n c y i n v o lv e d .

H o w e v e r h e in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e

b u s i n e s s c a s e w a s p r e m i s e d o n t h e Ye n r a t e a n d
t h u s t h e e n ti r e p r ic e m u s t b e e s c a l a t e d f o r t h e
c h a n g e i n th e Ye n r a te . ”
10

S o h e w a s a w a r e o f t h is a n o m a ly.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

H e w a s a w a r e a n d h e fu r t h e r

s t a te s :
“ I p r e p a r e d t h e c a lc u l a ti o n a c c o r d i n g ly … ”
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

“ … b e c a u s e Mr S in g h h a d r e q u e s te d

me to do so.”
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Ja.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

He

c o m p le t e s

that

paragraph

w i th

an

in s i n u a ti o n h e s a y s h e r e je c ts t h a t h e s u g g e s t s y o u m a k e a b o u t h i m .
W o u l d y o u li k e t o c o m m e n t th e r e o n ?
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Fr o m t h e t w o p o i n ts r a is e d i n t h a t
– in t h e d e t e r m i n a t io n o f th e p r ic e th e r e i s n o t h i n g w h i c h h a s e n a b l e d
u s t o c o m e t o a r e a lis t ic - i m p r o v e o u r k n o w l e d g e o f h o w th e p r i c e w a s
a r r iv e d a t .

S e c o n d ly i n t h a t t h e o n ly e x p l a n a t io n t h a t I c a n p ic k u p

fr o m M r L a h e r ’s s t a te m e n t f o r t h e c o n t in u e d u s e o f t h e Ye n w a s t h a t
M r Si n g h e x p l a i n e d t h e a s s u m p ti o n s a n d t a k e th a t a s a g u i d a n c e fr o m

Page 25 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M r Si n g h .
To m e th a t s ti ll d o e s n o t a d d r e s s t h e a n o m a l y t h a t I r a is e d
e a r l ie r a s to th e – h o w th e p r ic e w a s a r r iv e d a t o r a n y r e a s o n a b l e
d e t e r m i n a t io n o f t h e p r ic e o f t h a t 4 4 ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M r S in g h – s o r r y – M r L a h e r d e a ls w i t h th e

u s e o f th e Ye n n o t t h e D o l la r i n p a r a g r a p h 3 5 a n d 3 6 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h is i s t h e s u m t o ta l o f h is e x p l a n a t i o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I n y o u r v ie w y o u h e a r d – l e t m e s a y a t y o u r

p a r a g r a p h 6 7 y o u h a d i n v i t e d b o t h h e a n d M r S in g h t o ta lk t o t h is
a n o m a ly.

N o w i n y o u r v i e w h a s M r L a h e r c a s t a n y l i g h t o n t h is

a n o m a ly ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: He has talked to it but not cast any
li g h t o n i t.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: He concludes at 60 …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Ex c e p t th a t t h e o n ly li g h t t h a t I

in t e r p r e t th a t h e h a s c a s t o n i t i s t h a t i t w a s a l l u n d e r th e d ir e c ti o n ,
guidance equivalent synonyms from Mr Singh.
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o n o w r e a d in g y o u r o w n a ll e g a t io n s a n d

r e a d in g M r L a h e r ’s s t a te m e n t i s t h e r e s ti ll a n a n o m a ly ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I c o n t e n d th e r e i s s ti ll a n a n o m a ly.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Okay

and

since

you

had

i n v it e d

both

M e s s i e u r s S i n g h a n d L a h e r t o t a lk to t h i s a n o m a ly a n d y o u c o n c lu d e
M r L a h e r h a s t h u s f a r n o t d o n e s o – h a s f a il e d t o d o s o i n h i s s t a te m e n t

Page 26 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
I g u e s s i f t h e C h a ir c a n t h e n o n ly r e ly o n M r Si n g h p e r h a p s to e x p la in
t h e a n o m a ly g o i n g b y y o u r i n v it a ti o n ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: I would concur with that conclusion
a n d s a y t h a t i s t o m e t h a t is t h e o n ly r e a s o n a b l e c o n c lu s i o n t h a t o n e
could – could refer to.

M r L a h e r h a s a t te m p t e d to o r h a s tr ie d t o

a d d r e s s it i n h is t w o p a r a g r a p h s b u t i n t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s h e d e fe r s b o t h
– i n b o t h th o s e p a r a g r a p h s h e to M r Si n g h .

I b e li e v e th e n M r S in g h

s h o u l d a n s w e r – a d d r e s s t h e a n o m a l y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

N o w h e c o n c lu d e s o n t h is is s u e a n d I a m

r e a d in g h i s l a s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 3 6 a t p a g e 8 t o th e – a n d I
quote:
“ To th e e x te n t t h a t M r C a l l a r d is i n s i n u a t in g a t
p a r a g r a p h 6 7 o f h i s s ta t e m e n t t h a t t h e c a lc u la t io n
w a s in c o r r e c t .

It is clear from the above that he

m is u n d e r s t o o d t h e b a s is o f t h e c a lc u l a ti o n . ”
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t to t h a t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
c a l c u l a ti o n o r a n y c a lc u l a ti o n .

T h e r e is n o t h i n g t o i n f o r m t h e

N o t h i n g h a s b e e n p r o v i d e d h e r e w h ic h

a s I s a i d w o u l d e n a b l e a r e a li s t ic d e t e r m in a ti o n o f th e c a lc u la t io n . T h e
20

a n o m a li e s a s I h a v e p o in t e d o u t h a v e n o t b e e n e x p l a in e d .

We have

t a lk e d a n d – a n d a d d r e s s e d . Th is is a p o s t f a c t b a c k w a r d j u s ti f ic a ti o n
o f t h e p r ic e b u t w i t h o u t a n y s u p p o r t in g d a t a t h e a n o m a l i e s r e m a i n a n d I
s t il l f in d i t d i ff ic u l t to ju s ti fy.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y t h e r e h a s b e e n n o r e s p o n s e i n s u b s ta n c e
…

Page 27 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o r e s p o n s e t o t h e s u b s ta n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u r a i s e d a n d j u s t r e l ia n c e o n w h a t
M r Si n g h m a y h a v e s a i d to h i m d o e s n o t g o t o t h e s u b s t a n c e o f t h e
point?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct, correct.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d – a n d a c c o r d in g t o m y

n o t e s t h a t b r i n g s u s t h e n t o t h e e n d o f th i s is s u e a b o u t th e u s e o f th e
Ye n v e r s u s t h e D o l la r. W o u l d y o u c o n c u r ? Is th e r e a n y t h in g e ls e …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : O k a y.
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

P e r h a p s w e h a v e m is s e d ?

O k a y.

That then

b r i n g s u s t o t h e th ir d t o p ic a n d t h e t h i r d t o p ic is t h e q u e s t io n o f
advance payments.

B o th i n - i n r e g a r d t o th e 1 0 0 l o c o m o tiv e s a n d

1 0 6 4 . L e t u s s t a r t w i t h y o u r s t a te m e n t B B 4 A . Yo u f ir s t in tr o d u c e th is
c o n c e p t a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 6 0 – 6 - 0 – b u t y o u d e a l w i th i t i n f u r t h e r
d e t a i l fr o m y o u r p a r a g r a p h s 1 4 1 to 1 5 2 ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t h a t w o u l d b e a t B B 4 A s t a r t in g a t

p a r a g r a p h 3 4 . T h a t is w h e r e 1 4 1 s t a r ts . P a g e 3 4 , y e s . T h a n k y o u a n d
b e f o r e w e l o o k a t th o s e p a r a g r a p h s ju s t f o r t h e – t o p l a c e t h i n g s in
20

t h e ir p r o p e r c o n t e x t .

At your page – at your paragraph 60 you had

s t a te d th e f o ll o w i n g :
“On March, the 21st – on 21 March 2014 I and
colleagues

in

f in a n c e

r e c e iv e d

an

e m a il

fr o m

M r Yo u s u f L a h e r w i t h s p r e a d s h e e ts o f t h e fi n a l c a s h
fl o w s a s a t 1 7 M a r c h … ”

Page 28 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m a t 3 4 . I a m o n t h e w r o n g p a g e ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P a g e 3 4 C h a ir. T h a t i s w h e r e p a r a g r a p h 1 4 1
s t a r ts a n d t h a t is w h e r e Mr L a h e r – M r C a ll a r d d e a ls in d e ta il w it h
advance payments.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r ti n g w it h i t is m y c o n s id e r e d o p i n io n ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u a r e a t t h e r i g h t p a g e . W h a t I h a v e d o n e I
in d i c a t e d t h a t h e i n tr o d u c e d t h e c o n c e p t a t h is p a r a g r a p h 6 0 .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e n e e d n o t g o t h e r e . I c a n j u s t r e a d i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : J u s t t o p l a c e w h a t t h e n Mr C a l la r d s a y s fr o m
p a r a g r a p h 1 4 1 a n d a t p a r a g r a p h 6 0 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t B B 4 A y o u s t a te d :
“ O n 2 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 I a n d c o ll e a g u e s i n f in a n c e
received

an

s p r e a d s h e e ts

email
of

17 March 2014.

fr o m

th e

fi n a l

M r Yo u s u f L a h e r
cash

f lo w s

with
as

at

I was shocked and astounded to

n o t e t h a t t h e a d v a n c e p a y m e n ts g u a r a n t e e fo r t h e
20

C S R 1 0 0 w a s 3 0 p e r c e n t , th e d e s ig n r e v i e w 3 0
p e r c e n t , p a y m e n t o n a c c e p ta n c e p e r l o c o m o t iv e 3 7
p e r c e n t a n d r o t a ti o n t h r e e p e r c e n t . T h is t r a n s l a t e s
t o a 6 0 p e r c e n t u p fr o n t p a y m e n t b e f o r e a s in g l e
lo c o m o t iv e is r e c e iv e d . ”
T h a t is y o u r p a r a g r a p h 6 0 ?

Page 29 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h e n fr o m y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 4 1 a t p a g e 3 4 y o u
t h e n d e ta il w h y t h is s h o c k e d a n d s u r p r i s e d y o u a n d I w i ll j u s t
s u m m a r i s e a n d y o u h a v e te s t i fi e d t o t h is .

Yo u i n d ic a te t h a t i n b o t h

tr a n s a c ti o n s 1 0 6 4 a n d 1 0 0 t h e b id d e r s t h e m s e lv e s h a d o ffe r e d – h a d
r e q u e s t e d u p fr o n t p a y m e n t s o f – I w i ll g iv e y o u a r a n g e – b e tw e e n 1 . 6 2
– 1 . 6 2 p e r c e n t o f th e c o n tr a c t p r ic e a n d e i g h t p e r c e n t …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O f t h e c o n tr a c t p r ic e . T h a t y o u d o a t 1 4 4 .
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

In r e s p e c t o f t h e o t h e r tr a n s a c ti o n t h e r a n g e

w a s b e t w e e n 1 . 8 p e r c e n t o f t h e c o n tr a c t p r ic e a n d 2 5 p e r c e n t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: 25 percent yes.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Fo r o n e , y e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 4 7 y o u h a v e a t a b l e th e r e .
T h e f ir s t c o l u m n is i d e n t if y i n g t h e r e l e v a n t c o s t . T h e n e x t f o u r c o l u m n s
a d d r e s s t h e o ffe r s m a d e b y B o m b a d i e r, C h in a S o u th R a i l, G E a n d C h i n a
N o r t h R a il r e s p e c ti v e ly ?
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W h e n y o u l a s t t e s ti f ie d y o u s a i d t h e la s t t w o

c o l u m n s m u s t b e r e a d i n r e s p e c t o f w h a t w a s p a i d to C h i n a S o u th R a il
a n d G E a s w h a t w a s c o n tr a c t e d f o r ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w y o u s t a t e d t h e n i n a l l o f t h is t h a t i f t h e

Page 30 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
o ffe r s b y t h e b id d e r s r a n g e d u p to 1 0 p e r c e n t w h a t a c tu a lly h a p p e n e d
w a s t h a t a d v a n c e p a y m e n ts w e r e o ff e r e d b y Tr a n s n e t i n r e s p e c t o f C S R
a t a r a te o f 6 0 p e r c e n t w a y i n e x c e s s o f w h a t C S R h a d o r i g in a l ly t a b l e d .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

M a y I u s e th e w o r d s - m a y I u s e

t h e w o r d t h e f in a l c o n t a c ts w e r e c o n c lu d e d a t 6 0 p e r c e n t.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: At – I am happy to do that – at 60 percent –
b e t t e r c la r i ty.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: In respect of what they bargained,
yes.
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s ; a n d in s o f a r a s G E i s c o n c e r n e d i t is 7 0

percent?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct yes.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I f w e t u r n o v e r le a f y o u in d i c a t e d a n d y o u h a v e
t e s ti fi e d to t h is p r e v io u s ly a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 5 1 a t – a n d 1 5 2 th a t th is
in c r e a s e i n a d v a n c e p a y m e n ts t o b o th C S R a n d G E r e s u l t e d i n Tr a n s n e t
h a v i n g to c o u g h u p in a s i n g l e y e a r b y A p r il 2 0 1 4 7 .3 7 b ill i o n f o r
advance payments?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

Yo u g o f u r t h e r a t 1 5 2 a n d y o u s a y a s a

c o n s e q u e n c e o f th is Tr a n s n e t h a d t o i n c r e a s e i ts f o r e i g n b o r r o w i n g s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f th e p a y m e n t
schedule …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O f t h e p a y m e n t s c h e d u le .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : O v e r a ll p a y m e n t s c h e d u l e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O f 7 .3 7 b il li o n .

Page 31 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

The payment schedule – the 7.37

was the designed payment …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W a s t h e p a y m e n t o n – o n th e

c o n c l u d i n g o f t h e – o n t h e s ig n i n g o f t h e c o n tr a c t. Th e d e s ig n r e v i e w
p a y m e n t s w h ic h w e n t in t o th e fo ll o w i n g y e a r l e d t o p a r a g r a p h 1 - 5 - 2 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d – s o th is w a s o v e r a tw o y e a r p e r io d ?

A r e y o u s u g g e s ti n g … ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : O v e r a o n e y e a r p e r io d . C lo s e o f
10

t h e o n e y e a r i t – b e t w e e n M a r c h 2 0 1 4 w h e n t h e c o n t r a c ts w e r e
c o n c l u d e d . T h e f in a n c ia l y e a r e n d e d o n 3 1 M a r c h .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

S o t h e u p fr o n t p a y m e n t o f 7 .3 7

h a d to b e m a d e b y th e – I p u t o n o r b e f o r e 1 A p r i l …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

A n d t h e n t h e n e x t tr a n c h e o f

p a y m e n t s h a d t o b e m a d e d u r in g th e fo ll o w in g y e a r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: And …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
20

B u t a ll r e l a t e d t o t h e t a b l e w h i c h

w e h a v e m e n t io n e d h e r e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And

then

you

t e s ti fy

–

last

d e m o n s t r a t e d t o th e C h a i r h o w t h o s e b o r r o w i n g s s p i k e d …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .

Page 32 of 117

ti m e

you

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Over the – the successive years.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t h a t is t h e g is t o f y o u r – y o u r t e s t i m o n y

a s r e g a r d s t h e s e a d v a n c e p a y m e n ts . Mr L a h e r d e a l s w i th a l l th a t y o u
h a v e s t a t e d fr o m h i s p a r a g r a p h 3 9 a t p a g e 9 o f h is s e c o n d s t a t e m e n t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Up to 42 …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

A n d t h e g is t o f w h a t h e s a y s is h a v i n g

considered what you said at paragraph 40.
“ I w a s n o t i n v o l v e d i n t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f Tr a n s n e t ’s
cash

or

f u n d in g .

lo c o m o t iv e

D u r in g

t r a n s a c t io n s

th e

1064

M r S in g h

and
told

100
th e

N e g o ti a ti n g Te a m t h a t Tr a n s n e t h a d t h e f u n d in g
a v a i la b le a n d t h a t t h e a d v a n c e d p a y m e n ts w e r e
a ffo r d a b l e . I d i d n o t h a v e th e d e le g a ti o n t o a c c e p t
t h e a d v a n c e p a y m e n t s p r o p o s a l f r o m b i d d e r s . I t is
my

u n d e r s t a n d in g

Subcommittee
20

of

th e

that
Steering

th e

L o c o m o ti v e

C o m m i t te e

was

d e l e g a t e d t o a n d h e w o u ld h a v e a c c e p te d t h e
a d v a n c e d p a y m e n ts p r o p o s a ls a s p a r t o f t h e p a g e
d e a l i n c l u d i n g t h e p r ic e o ff e r e d b y b id d e r s . ”
A t p a r a g r a p h 4 1 h e c o n t in u e s .
“ T h e q u a n t u m o f t h e a d v a n c e d p a y m e n ts w o u l d
h a v e p u t a s tr a i n o n Tr a n s n e t ’s f u n d in g a n d c a s h

Page 33 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
p o s i ti o n s h o u l d th e r a i l v o lu m e s a s e n v i s a g e d i n t h e
m a r k e t d e m a n d s tr a te g y n o t h a v e m a te r i a l i s e d . ”
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Correct.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And I stop there.

O n my r e a d i n g t h a t is t h e

s u m t o t a l o f Mr L a h e r ’s r e s p o n s e to t h e is s u e s y o u r a is e a t y o u r
paragraph 60 which I read into the record and paragraphs 142 to 152.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W h ic h is y o u r s h o c k a n d d i s m a y …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Ja.
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
payments.

At an increase of payment – of advance

U p t o 7 0 p e r c e n t in o n e in s t a n c e a n d 6 0 p e r c e n t i n t h e

o th e r i n s t a n c e . M y q u e s t i o n t o y o u b a s e d o n w h a t y o u k n o w y o u h a v e
t e s ti fi e d to h a s Mr L a h e r ta k e n i s s u e w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e t h u s f a r b a s e d
on what I read into the record?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o . N o th e r e is n o is s u e t o i t . H e
h a s n o t t a k e n is s u e w it h i t a t a l l.

T h e k e y p o in t o f h is s t a te m e n t o f

w h a t h e h a d – o f h is r e s p o n s e a n d I t a k e t h a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 0 …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L R D : Is th a t :
20

“ M r S in g h to ld t h e N e g o t i a t i o n Te a m t h a t Tr a n s n e t
had

the

f u n d in g

a v a il a b l e

and

the

advance

p a y m e n t s w e r e a ff o r d a b l e . ”
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d t h a t i n h is n e x t s e n te n c e :
“ I d i d n o t h a v e th e d e l e g a ti o n to a c c e p t th e a d v a n c e

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
p a y m e n t s p r o p o s a ls fr o m b i d d e r s . ”
A g a i n t h is t a l k s to m e a s a d i ff e r e n c e to M r Si n g h i n th is r e g a r d . T h a t
is i t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a t is i t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h a t i s it .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w a t 4 1 h e – h e s ta t e s th a t th e c a s h

p o s i ti o n o f Tr a n s n e t w o u ld h a v e b e e n n e g a t iv e l y i m p a c te d i f t h e M D S
s tr a t e g y h a d n o t m a t e r i a lis e d i f t h e r e a l v o l u m e s e n v is a g e d i n t h e M D S
s tr a t e g y h a d n o t m a t e r i a li s e d .
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w p r e v io u s ly y o u – w h e n y o u a p p e a r e d

b e f o r e t h e C h a ir y o u te s ti fi e d a s to y o u r c r it ic is m s o n t h e f u n d a m e n ta ls
of that MDS …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I n s o f a r a s i t w a s p r e d ic a t e d o n a s h a r p

in c r e a s e i n r a i l v o l u m e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : It w a s e ffe c t iv e l y …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : D o y o u r e c a l l th a t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
20

P r e d ic a t e d

on

a

doubling

of

g e n e r a l fr e i g h t v o lu m e s o v e r t h e s e v e n y e a r p e r io d , y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d w e – w e k n o w th a t y o u – y o u d id a n

a n a ly s is b e f o r e th e C h a ir to d e m o n s tr a te t h a t t h e r e w a s n o o b j e c t iv e
e v i d e n c e th a t t h e v o l u m e s w o u l d i n c r e a s e in t h e m a n n e r a n ti c i p a t e d b y
the MDS.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I h ig h l ig h t e d a n u m b e r o f c a s e s

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
w h ic h I p u ll e d – w h i c h b r o u g h t t h e M D S in m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i n t o a
s h a r p q u e s ti o n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o t h e n M r L a h e r t e lls u s t h a t i f th o s e v e r y –
b u t n o n e th e le s s i f I m a y s a y n o , n o c o r r e c ti o n s o r a d j u s t m e n ts w e r e
m a d e t o th e M D S ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No, no.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h e v o lu m e s t h a t y o u s a i d w e r e u n ju s t i fi e d –
o b j e c ti v e ly u n v e r i fi a b l e w e r e r e ta in e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o M r L a h e r t e l ls u s w e ll i f t h o s e v o l u m e s

w o u ld n o t b e a c h i e v e d t h e n th a t w o u l d p l a c e a s tr a i n o n Tr a n s n e t a n d
p l a c e i t i n a n e g a t iv e c a s h p o s i t io n ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: That says …
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: At 41.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h a t is n u m b e r 4 1 .

Here it says

paragraph 41 yes.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : D o y o u k n o w if t h o s e v o l u m e s w e r e a c h ie v e d
o r w a s t h a t – w a s t h a t lo n g a f t e r y o u h a d l e ft t h e e m p lo y o f Tr a n s n e t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I t is a f te r m y – i t is s o m e t i m e a f te r
20

I h a d l e f t t h e c u r r e n t – w h e r e w e a r e n o w b u t i t i s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g
t h a t t h e M D S v o l u m e s h a v e a b s o l u t e ly n o t b e e n a c h i e v e d fr o m t h e
o r i g in a l t o n n a g e s p r o p o s e d . W e w e r e g o i n g u p t o 7 0 – 1 7 0 - o d d m i l li o n
t o n n e s i n 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 8 . Fo r g iv e m e . W e j u s t h a v e t o c h e c k t h a t y e a r.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: We are running at the moment. It

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
is – i t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g - c o r r e c t io n – i t is s o m e w h e r e b e t w e e n 9 0
a n d 1 0 0 m i ll io n t o n n e s . W a y b e l o w t h e – t h e M D S w h ic h h a s p u t s o m e
s tr a in o n t h e f in a n c e o f t h e o r g a n is a t i o n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d y o u a r e – y o u a r e g i v i n g t h e C h a ir y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o l o n g e r i n th e e m p lo y o f Tr a n s n e t a n d
y o u d o n o t h a v e th e f a c ts a t y o u r – y o u r d is p o s a l t o m a k e a d e f in i tiv e
s t a te m e n t i n t h a t r e g a r d . T h a t i s …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I – I d o n o t h a v e t h e d e ta il

b r e a k d o w n o f th e to n n e s …
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A t m y d is p o s a l .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

B u t Mr L a h e r i s i n a – a n a d v a n ta g e o u s

p o s i ti o n in t h a t h e is s ti ll w i th in Tr a n s n e t . S o p e r h a p s h e m i g h t a s s is t
t h e C h a ir i n u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h e th e r o r n o t t h e v o lu m e s w e r e m e t .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W e ll I c o u l d a d d th a t th e – t h e

Tr a n s n e t f in a n c ia l y e a r h a s j u s t c l o s e d .

Th o s e fi g u r e s w o u l d b e

a v a i la b le o f th e l a te s t f ig u r e s a n d w o u l d k n o w c e r t a i n l y t h a t t h e M D S
fi g u r e s h a v e n o t b e e n m e t. S o t o t a l k o f t h e - s h o u ld th e r e a l v o lu m e s
n o t h a v e b e e n m a t e r i a lis e d t o – t o ta lk i n – t o b e s p e c u l a t iv e a b o u t
20

s h o u l d th e y n o t b e e n m a t e r ia li s e d w h e n w e k n o w i n f a c t t h a t t h e y h a v e
n o t m a t e r i a lis e d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. Th e n th a t a s p e c t w e w i ll ta k e – p ic k u p
w i t h M r L a h e r w h e n h e d o e s a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e C h a ir.

N o w la s t ly h e

s t a te s a t h i s p a r a g r a p h 4 2 o n th is is s u e a n d I q u o t e . Yo u r e c a ll I r e a d
p a r a g r a p h 6 0 i n t o th e r e c o r d a n d t h i s is h i s d ir e c t r e s p o n s e t o

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
paragraph 60.
“ I n o t e a t p a r a g r a p h 6 0 o f Mr C a l la r d ’s s t a te m e n t
t h a t M r C a ll a r d s a y s t h a t h e w a s s h o c k e d w i t h th e
e x t e n t o f t h e u p fr o n t p a y m e n ts . A t n o s t a g e p r io r to
2 0 0 8 d i d Mr C a l la r d c o n ta c t m e r e g a r d i n g t h is a n d
h e d i d n o t e x p r e s s a n y s h o c k o r s u r p r is e t o m e . ”
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t to t h e a d d r e s s – t o th a t r e s p o n s e ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: I – yes.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s . W h a t i s y o u r c o m m e n t ?
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

H a v i n g r e c e iv e d t h e f i g u r e s fr o m

M r L a h e r I d i d n o t f e e l o b li g e d o r I w a s u n d e r n o o b l i g a t io n t o r e s p o n d
t o h i m i n t h i s fo r m a t. H e – h e w a s p a r t o f th e n e g o ti a t io n t e a m , g a v e
m e th e f i g u r e s – t h e c a s h fl o w fi g u r e s t o p r e s e n t .

I h a d p r e v i o u s ly

e x p r e s s e d m y s h o c k a n d c o n c e r n a t m a n y o f th e – a t t h e f ig u r e s to
o th e r c o l l e a g u e s i n f i n a n c e .
P a r t ic u l a r l y w h e n w e w e r e a s k e d a b o u t t h e – i n th e c a s h f lo w
- i n t h e p a y m e n ts w h ic h h a d t o b e m a d e - t h e u p fr o n t p a y m e n t s w h ic h
h a d t o b e m a d e a n d y o u w il l r e c a l l my S M S e x c h a n g e w i t h m e m b e r s o f
the – in finance where I said:
“ M y g i d d y h a t w e a r e s h o c k e d a t t h e s e f ig u r e s . ”

20
And:

“These guys are cowboys.

W h a t a r e th e y p l a y i n g

a t? ”
Wa s – s o I d i d n o t f e e l i t n e c e s s a r y t o t a k e i t u p w it h M r L a h e r a g a in
b e c a u s e i t w a s n o w fa i t a c c o m p l i.

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. I t h in k t h a t b r i n g s u s t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n
o f M r L a h e r ’s r e s p o n s e t o y o u r e v i d e n c e r e g a r d i n g t h e s e a d v a n c e
p a y m e n t s . Is t h e r e a n y th i n g p e r h a p s I o m i t te d to h i g h l i g h t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u a r e c o m f o r t a b l e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th e n e x t t o p i c t h a t w e tu r n to th e n is w h a t w e
t e r m t h e 1 0 6 4 b u s i n e s s c a s e . T h a t y o u d e a l t w it h in y o u r B B 4 A s t a r ti n g
a t p a g e 1 9 p a r a g r a p h 8 1 . T h e d e t a i l o f th a t y o u s e t o u t i n 8 3 t o 11 5 .
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: What page again?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t i s p a g e 1 9 o f B B 4 A C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o y o u r e v id e n c e r e g a r d i n g th e 1 0 6 4 b u s i n e s s
case runs from paragraph 83 to 1-1-5.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u m a y j u s t fl i p t h r o u g h t o r e a c q u a i n t

y o u r s e l f . M r L a h e r r e s p o n d s t o t h a t e v id e n c e a t h is p a r a g r a p h s 6 4 a n d
6 6 o f h is s e c o n d s ta t e m e n t a n d t h a t w o u l d b e C h a i r Mr L a h e r ’s s e c o n d
20

s t a te m e n t s t a r ti n g a t p a g e 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H a v e y o u lo c a t e d i t M r C a l l a r d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O n c e a g a i n t h e g is t o f y o u r i s s u e s r e g a r d in g

t h e 1 0 6 4 b u s i n e s s c a s e r e l a t e d i n t h e m a in t o h o w t h a t b u s i n e s s c a s e

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
w a s d e v e l o p e d t o a r r iv e a t a fi g u r e o f 3 8 - o d d b i ll i o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u s p e a k a b o u t t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f M c K in s e y
a n d th e i s s u e r e a l ly is a b o u t w h e th e r o r n o t t h a t 3 8 .6 b i ll io n a s
a p p r o v e d b y th e B o a r d i n 2 0 1 4 w h e t h e r i t w a s i n c lu s i v e o f fo r e i g n
e x c h a n g e a n d e s c a l a ti o n .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: The year would have been 2013.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: 2013?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s . I …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W h e t h e r it i n c l u d e d h e d g i n g a n d

e s c a l a t io n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u - y o u lo o k a t v a r i o u s d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d –
a n d t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s a n d y o u c o n c lu d e t h a t t h e 3 8 . 6 b i ll io n d i d i n c l u d e
f o r e x a n d e s c a l a ti o n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: I am summarising.
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y.

I f I h a v e i t r i g h t th e n l e t u s c o n s i d e r

w h a t Mr L a h e r s a y s in r e s p o n s e t h e r e t o s t a r ti n g a t p a r a g r a p h 6 4 o f h is
s t a te m e n t . J u s t a s e c o n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is 6 4 o f M r L a h e r ’s s t a te m e n t ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : M r L a h e r ’s s t a t e m e n t .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I th i n k i t s h o u l d b e 6 5 C h a ir. 6 4 d e a ls w i th a
d i ff e r e n t is s u e w h i c h w e a r e s t ill t o g e t to .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s 6 4 is a d i ff e r e n t i s s u e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s . It is 6 5 …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: And 66 and at 65 …
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

It w o u ld b e p a r a g r a p h 6 6 o f

M r L a h e r ’s s t a te m e n t .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t 6 5 h e t a lk s a b o u t t h e B A F O .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h e B A F O p r ic e a n d t h e n e g o ti a ti o n a n d th e

n o r m a l is i n g o f t h e B A F O p r i c e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B u t i n e s s e n c e w h a t h e s a y s a t 6 5 r e a ll y d o e s
n o t e x p l a i n t h e in c r e a s e fr o m 3 8 b i ll i o n t o 4 9 ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No, no.
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And neither does he say anything about

w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e 3 8 i n c l u d e d f o r e x a n d e s c a la t i o n ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Paragraph 65 …
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: At 65.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : D o e s n o t d e a l w i th t h a t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h e f o r e x a n d e s c a la t io n c o m e s i n
at 66.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: At 66.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u a r e q u i t e c o r r e c t a n d h e p o i n ts o u t t h a t

you were involved – you were involved in the development of the 1064
business case.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u a d m i t t h a t?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u a d m i t t h a t M r C a ll a r d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : S o r r y. I w a s n o t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: What did you …?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

He

says

–

it

does

m e n t io n

here

that

M r C a l l a r d w a s a ls o i n v o lv e d i n th e 1 0 6 4 b u s i n e s s c a s e c o m p i la t io n i n
2 0 1 3 . Yo u h a v e n o i s s u e w it h th a t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No issue.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: He says:
20

“ Yo u w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o u p d a t e th e N P V c a lc u la t io n
f o r t h e d r a f t m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e B o a r d r e q u e s ti n g
a n in c r e a s e in E T C M a y 2 0 1 4 . ”
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h a t w a s n o w th e i n c r e a s e f r o m 3 8 b il li o n
t o t h e n e w 4 8 b il li o n ?

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d y o u a g r e e y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o d o th a t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: I was requested to do that, ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H e f u r t h e r s ta t e s :
“ M r C a ll a r d w h il s t u p d a t i n g t h e N P V c a lc u la t io n
w o u ld

have

seen

that

the

draft

me morandum

r e c o r d e d t h a t t h e E T C e x c l u d e d e s c a l a ti o n a n d
forex hedging costs.”
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t . Th a t i s t h e s ta t e m e n t.
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Come again.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : S o r r y. T h a t is w h a t h e s a y s , y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y. D o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t to th a t ? D i d

y o u n o t e d – d i d y o u r e a li s e w h e n y o u w e r e u p d a t i n g t h e N P V
c a l c u l a ti o n t h a t th a t p a r t ic u l a r d r a f t m e m o r a n d u m s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e
3 8 . 6 b il li o n e x c l u d e d e s c a la t io n a n d fo r e x ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o I d i d n o t. I d id n o t s e e t h a t i n
t h e m e m o r a n d u m . R e c e i v e d t h e m e m o r a n d u m o n t h e – o n a Th u r s d a y.
I t i s d a t e d o n a T h u r s d a y.

There was a subsequent memorandum on

t h e s a m e d a y w i th t h e s p r e a d s h e e t c a lc u la ti o n s w h ic h w e h a v e b e e n
20

t a lk in g t o w h ic h a ls o s a i d p l e a s e u p d a t e t h e N P V.

I responded to

M r L a h e r o n t h e – t h e S u n d a y a n d I b e l ie v e I h a v e c o p i e s o f th o s e
e m a i ls a v a i la b le .
I d id n o t r e s p o n d i n t h e b o d y o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m i t s e l f b u t i t
w a s o n a n e m a i l w h e r e I o ffe r e d t h r e e s c e n a r i o s a s to h o w t h e N P V
should be dealt with.

I c a n n o t r e c a ll t h a t I r e a d t h e m e m o r a n d u m i n

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
d e t a i l a t t h a t t i m e . I w a s f o c u s i n g o n t h e N P V c a lc u l a ti o n b u t n o I d i d
n o t ic e i t i n th a t m e m o r a n d u m a t th e ti m e . M r L a h e r ’s i s c o r r e c t t h e r e .
I t w a s i n th e m e m o r a n d u m . I h a v e s u b s e q u e n tl y s e e n i t b u t I
d i d n o t s e e i t o r r e s p o n d t o i t a t th e ti m e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. H e p r o c e e d s th e n a n d s a y s :
“ M r C a ll a r d w i t h h e ld t h is in f o r m a t io n a n d d i d n o t
in f o r m m e o r a n y o n e e ls e t h a t t h e b a s is o f t h e
memorandum was correct knowing that the ETC and
t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e a c tu a l ly i n c l u d e d e s c a l a ti o n a n d
forex hedging costs.”

10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Well …
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Can you comment?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

As

I

d id

not

see

it

in

the

m e m o r a n d u m a n d I r e s p o n d e d w i t h t h e N P V I d e n y t h a t I d e l ib e r a te ly
w i t h h e ld a n y t h i n g .

I d i d n o t s e e t h e i n f o r m a ti o n i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m

a n d t h i s m e m o r a n d u m c a m e to t h e fo r e – s o r r y – t h e h e d g i n g a n d
e s c a l a t io n c a m e t o t h e f o r e i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 fo ll o w i n g t h e W e r k s m a n s
s t a te m e n t

th a t

th e

business

case

did

not include

hedging

and

A n d – a n d j u s t t o – t o c la r i fy o n t h a t .

Yo u

e s c a l a t io n .
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

t e s ti fi e d th a t i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 y o u w e r e p a r t o f a t e a m …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a t w a s r e q u e s t e d t o c o n d u c t a n e x e r c is e - if
m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll t o c a lc u l a t e – t o d e t e r m i n e i n te r a li a
w h e t h e r t h e 3 8 . 6 b il li o n i n c l u d e d f o r e x a n d h e d g i n g a n d – a n d t o s e e k

Page 44 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
t o – to f in d a j u s ti fi c a t io n if y o u c a n f o r th e i n c r e a s e fr o m 3 8 t o 4 8 .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: The …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I a m m is q u o t in g t h e b r ie f ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

E ff e c t iv e ly

the

in v o lv e m e n t i n

January 2018 …
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Ja.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Was to do a backward walk.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Fr o m t h e 4 9 b i ll i o n …
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : To t h e 3 8 t o t r y a n d fi n d w h a t i t –
w h e r e i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n . I d i d a – w e l a n d e d u p d o in g a f o r w a r d w a l k
fr o m th e 3 8 a n d a r r i v e d a t fi g u r e s w h ic h h e s a y s - w h ic h M r L a h e r in
f a c ts q u o te s i n o t h e r p a r ts o f h is s t a t e m e n t t o s o m e l e s s e r f ig u r e t h a n
the 49.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
that

e x e r c is e

in

A n d n o w t h a t t e a m t h a t w a s r e q u e s t e d to d o

January 2018

was

made

up

of

yourself,

M r Yo u s u f L a h e r a n d M r M o o l a ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Mr M o o l a a n d t h e r e w e r e o t h e r s …
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: There were others.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : W h o – w h o p la y e d a l e s s e r r o l e i n
t h a t th e y w e r e …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B u t t h e t h r e e o f y o u w e r e d ir e c tly in v o lv e d ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: The three us.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w i n th a t – i n t h a t – o n th a t Mr C a l la r d

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
c o n ti n u e d th a t Mr … - Mr L a h e r – I a p o lo g i s e .
“ M r C a ll a r d k n e w t h is f a c t w h ic h i s th a t t h e E T C
in c l u d e d fo r e x a n d h e d g i n g o f 3 8 . 6 b i ll io n – k n e w
t h is

fact

w h i ls t

r e c o n c i li a ti o n

in

we

were

January 2018

p e r f o r m in g

the

and

t o ld

never

M r M o o l a o r I a b o u t t h i s a t t h e o u ts e t o f th e
r e c o n c i li a ti o n e x e r c is e .
that

the

business

I o n ly f o u n d o u t in 2 0 1 8

case

c a lc u l a ti o n s

a c tu a lly

in c l u d e d f o r e x e s c a l a ti o n s a f te r w e p e r fo r me d t h is
10

r e c o n c i li a ti o n . ”
S o M r L a h e r o n ly le a r n t in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 t h a t t h e 3 8 . 6 b i ll io n
E T C f o r th e 1 0 6 4 l o c o m o t iv e s a c tu a lly i n c l u d e d e s c a la t io n a n d f o r e x
o n ly i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 w h e n h e w a s d o i n g t h e r e c o n c il ia t io n .

Any

c o m m e n t t o t h a t s ta t e m e n t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Ye s .

T h a t i t is n o t c o r r e c t th a t

t h e y o n l y l e a r n t o f t h is a f te r w e p e r f o r m e d th e r e c o n c i li a ti o n . As I s a i d
in my te s t i m o n y o f t h e J a n u a r y / Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 r e c o n c il ia t io n e x e r c is e .
T h e f ir s t p o in t w h ic h w e d e a lt w it h w a s t h e e s c a l a ti o n a n d h e d g in g a s
p a r t o f t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e . T h a t w a s t h e f ir s t p a r t . S o i t w a s n o t a f te r
20

t h e r e c o n c i li a ti o n .
I t w a s p r io r t o t h e r e c o n c i li a ti o n . O n c e w e h a d d e a l t w i th th e
h e d g i n g a n d e s c a l a ti o n a n d g o t t h a t o u t o f t h e w a y t o r e f e r e n c e to t h e
b u s i n e s s c a s e a n d p e r u s a l o f t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e w e t h e n s t a r te d o n t h e
r e c o n c i li a ti o n – th e f in a n c i a l r e c o n c i li a ti o n o f t h a t .
a ft e r w a r d s .

So it was not

It i s c o r r e c t o r i t is o r i t is q u i t e p o s s ib ly c o r r e c t t h a t h e

Page 46 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
o n ly – s o r r y – l e t m e r e s ta t e .
I w a s u n a w a r e u p u n t il M r L a h e r ’s m e m o r a n d u m n o w o r s o r r y
– c o r r e c ti o n – h i s s ta t e m e n t n o w t h a t o f h is m e m o r a n d u m t h a t h e s e n t
t o m e i n h is Y L 3 6 h is M a y 2 0 1 4 m e m o r a n d u m t h a t i n f a c t t h a t i n c lu d e d
t h e – h i s m e m o r a n d u m i n fa c t t h a t i n c l u d e d h e d g in g a n d e s c a l a t i o n . I
o n ly p i c k e d t h a t u p n o w o n r e a d i n g i t. A s I s a i d I h a d n o t o p e n e d t h a t
m e m o r a n d u m . I r e s p o n d e d t o th e N P V p e r s e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Now Mr Laher says he only became aware of

t h a t fa c t a t th e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h a t e x e r c is e .
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : It w a s a t t h e …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a t w a s h i s p o s i ti o n .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t w a s a t t h e b e g i n n in g o f th e

e x e r c is e n o t t h e e n d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w m y q u e s t i o n is fr o m y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 4 2

o f y o u r s t a te m e n t t o 1 5 3 …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t a k in g i n t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n y o u r o r a l

t e s ti m o n y t o t h e C h a i r y o u to o k t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h a n u m b e r o f
d o c u m e n ts w h e r e y o u d e fi n i t e l y d e m o n s t r a te d t h a t t h e o r i g i n a l 3 0 –
20

a p p r o v e d 3 8 . 6 b il li o n d i d i n f a c t in c l u d e f o r e x a n d e s c a la t io n . T h a t w a s
t h e s u m – th e g i s t o f y o u r e v id e n c e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y.

Mr Laher has now responded to you

w h a t y o u h a v e t a k e n – w e h a v e t a k e n – y o u a n d I h a v e t a k e n t h e C h a ir
t h r o u g h a n d M r L a h e r ’s r e s p o n s e . M r L a h e r – I u n d e r s t a n d M r L a h e r t o

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
s p e a k o f w h e n h e b e c a m e a w a r e o f t h a t f a c t a n d n o t t o d i s p u t e th a t th e
3 8 . 6 b i ll io n in d e e d i n c l u d e d f o r e x a n d e s c a la ti o n . Is t h a t – d o y o u h a v e
t h e s a m e r e a d i n g o f h is p a r a g r a p h ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I h a v e th e s a m e r e a d i n g t h a t h e

d o e s n o t d is p u te t h a t a t a ll . H e i n f o r m s a s t o w h e n h e b e c a m e a w a r e
of it but he does not dispute it.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d o n c e a g a i n I – a s a C h a r te r e d A c c o u n ta n t
in t h e p o s i t io n h e h e l d a g a in s t y o u h e w il l c la r i fy t o t h e C h a ir h o w c o m e
h e b e c o m e s a w a r e o f t h a t f a c t s o l a t e in t h e d a y a n d n o t a t t h e t i m e h e
10

w a s d e a l i n g w it h t h i s b u s in e s s c a s e . T h a t i s n o t f o r y o u t o c o m m e n t .
T h a t i s a n is s u e t h a t t h e C h a ir w il l t a k e u p w i t h M r L a h e r u n le s s y o u
w o u ld lik e to .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

It is n o r m a l p r a c ti c e f o r a ll o u r

t e n d e r s a n d b u s in e s s c a s e s o f t h i s n a tu r e to i n c l u d e f o r e x a n d
e s c a l a t io n i n t h e b u s in e s s c a s e it s e l f .

Therefore it would have been

u n u s u a l a n d a l m o s t a – a r e d f l a g to p ic k u p a t e n d e r o f t h i s m a g n i t u d e
w h ic h d i d n o t i n c l u d e f o r e x a n d f o r e x h e d g in g a n d e s c a l a ti o n i n t h e
tender document.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

A n d p a r t ic u l a r l y b e c a u s e t h e p r o j e c t o f th is

m a g n i t u d e w a s – h a d a s i g n i fi c a n t p o r t io n o f f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y i n i t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Ye s i t w o u l d h a v e h a d .

It would

h a v e h a d d e p e n d in g o n th e n a tu r e o f t h e lo c o m o t iv e a n y t h in g b e t w e e n
4 2 t o 5 5 p e r c e n t fo r e ig n c u r r e n c y e x p o s u r e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d i f – w e – w e g o b a c k t o w h a t Mr L a h e r

s t a te s in h is s ta t e m e n t h e w a s w e ll a w a r e t h a t t h e r e i s a f o r e i g n

Page 48 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
e x c h a n g e c o m p o n e n t i n t h i s p r o je c t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : U n d o u b te d l y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d h e s t a te d s o in m a n y – i n s o m a n y t e r m s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t is c o m m o n k n o w l e d g e t h a t o u r

lo c o m o t iv e s h a v e a f o r e ig n e x c h a n g e c o m p o n e n t i n i t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Now I – you – you may or may not know that
M s M a th a n e M a k g a t h o a p p e a r e d b e f o r e t h e C h a ir.
employee

of

Tr a n s n e t

in v o lv e d

in

Tr e a s u r y.

She is a former
Mr Makgatho

–

M s M a k g a t h o s u b m i tt e d a d o c u m e n t a n d s h e s p o k e to i t . T h e d e t a il o f
10

w h ic h i s n o t r e l e v a n t fo r o u r p u r p o s e s r ig h t n o w.
A s B B 1 9 0 A C h a ir a n d t h a t d o c u m e n t i s ti t le d – B B 1 0 A i s h e r
w h o le f il e .

T h is i s A n n e x u r e M M 2 t o B B 1 0 A .

T h is is Ms M a k g a t h o ’s

e v i d e n c e n o w.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h is M M 2 is a n d I q u o te :
“ G u id e l i n e s a s P r o v i d e d b y Tr a n s n e t t o E x p l a i n a n d
A s s is t i n E s t a b li s h i n g S u p p li e r A g r e e m e n ts , F o r e x
P a y m e n ts , t h e

Hedging

Process

and

Exchange

C o n tr o l . ”
20

T h a t is th e n a m e o f t h e p o lic y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A r e y o u f a m i li a r w i t h t h a t p o l ic y ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I h a v e n o t s e e n th e p o l ic y m y s e l f

b u t a w a r e o f s o m e o f th e p r e c e p ts o f t h a t p o lic y w h i c h w e a p p l ie d i n
o u r lo c o m o t iv e b u s i n e s s c a s e w h i c h w a s t o i n c l u d e h e d g i n g a n d

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
e s c a l a t io n i n th e b u s i n e s s c a s e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h a t p o li c y h a s b e e n a p p li e d i n Tr a n s n e t .
I t is d a te d 2 7 J u ly 2 0 0 8 . S o b y th e ti m e y o u w e r e d o in g 1 0 6 4 th e p o li c y
was in operation …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d o u r r e a d i n g o f i t – w e d o n o t h a v e to g o
in t o th e d e t a il .

I t i s q u i te c o r r e c t th a t i f y o u a r e g o i n g to t r a n s a c t in

a n y c u r r e n c y b u t Z A R y o u h a v e to c o n s id e r fo r w a r d …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : C o v e r.
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H e d g in g fo r w a r d c o v e r.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H e a d in g a n d e s c a l a ti o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B u t y o u a r e n o t i n a p o s i t io n t o d e a l i n d e ta il
w i t h t h is d o c u m e n t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o t a t a ll .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I - t h a t is o n e o f th e is s u e s I g u e s s w e w il l

h a v e t o e s t a b l is h fr o m M r L a h e r w h e t h e r h e is – h e w a s fa m i li a r w i t h i n
2014.
20

I t h i n k t h a t b r i n g s u s – a n d t h a t is t h e – t h e s o le r e s p o n s e

M r L a h e r h a s t o t h e i s s u e s y o u – t h e p r o b l e ms y o u r a i s e d a b o u t t h is
in c r e a s e fr o m 3 8 . 6 b il li o n i n t h e 1 0 6 4 .
J u s t t h a t h e o n ly f o u n d o u t t h a t i t w a s i n c l u d e d in th e - f o r e x
a n d e s c a l a ti o n w e r e i n c l u d e d in th e o r i g i n a l 3 8 .6 b il li o n E T C w h e n h e
d i d th e r e c o n c i li a ti o n w it h y o u a n d o t h e r s i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: That is …

Page 50 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H e r a is e s n o o t h e r i s s u e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o o t h e r is s u e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: That then would bring us to the end of your –
t h e f o u r t h is s u e th a t Mr L a h e r h a s r a i s e d w i t h y o u . T h a t l e a v e s u s w i t h
t h e la s t p o i n t – t h e l a s t is s u e w h i c h is r e c o n c i li a ti o n a n d C h a ir i t is
b r o u g h t to m y a t t e n t i o n t h a t I – a s u s u a l I h a v e e n c r o a c h e d C h a ir o n
y o u r te a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g d o y o u a n t ic i p a t e …
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: I – I …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e i n g o n th a t o n e ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t is f iv e m i n u t e s b u t I s ti ll h a v e Mr M o h a m e d
to deal with. Remember there are two statements.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I h a v e ju s t d i s p o s e d o f M r L a h e r r i g h t n o w o r
w e w ill b e d o i n g s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h e n w e t u r n to Mr M o h a m m e d b u t if I m a y

C h a ir Mr Yo u s u f M o h a m e d is v e r y n a r r o w. I f w e g e t to 1 0 mi n u te s i t w il l
be a lot.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d – a n d h e o n t h i s p o in t t h a t i s r e m a i n i n g ?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Would be about?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I a m u n d e r t h e g u i d a n c e o f m y ju n io r.

s a y s 1 0 m in u t e s . I w i ll t a k e is s u e w i t h t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s u r e w e c a n r e l y o n th a t .

Page 51 of 117

She

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I c a n s a y th a t I h a v e i n t h e p a s t w h e n I h a v e
r e l i e d it h a s n e v e r le t m e – s h e h a s n e v e r l e t m e d o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

So

I

would

think

c o m f o r ta b l y

in c l u d i n g

p e r h a p s a n y q u e s t i o n s t h e C h a ir m a y h a v e to M r C a ll a r d w e h a v e 1 5
m i n u t e s le f t w i t h M r C a ll a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. I th i n k l e t u s ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w e w i ll c o n ti n u e a f t e r t h a t .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l r e s u m e a t 2 5 t o 1 2 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

As w e h a d i n d ic a te d M r C a l l a r d . W e a r e

n o w m o v i n g o n to t h e l a s t t o p ic w h ic h i s th e is s u e o f r e c o n c i li a ti o n . Yo u
20

d e a l w i th t h i s i n y o u r o r i g i n a l s t a te m e n t a t B B 4 A s t a r t in g a t p a g e 5 1
a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h 1 9 7 . L e t u s s a y 1 9 6 b a s ic a l ly. A t 1 9 6 y o u
in d i c a t e t h a t y o u w e r e a p p r o a c h e d to a s s is t i n r e c o n c il in g th e 3 8 .6
b u s i n e s s , b i lli o n p o s i te d b y th e b u s i n e s s c a s e t o 4 9 . 5 .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD: Correct.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O S C : Fr o m y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 9 7 y o u i n d ic a t e t h a t

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
t h e te a m w a s p r i m a r ily c o m p r is e d o f M r H u g h S o fl a h e r, Mr M o h a m m e d
M u ll e r a n d y o u r s e l f ?
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

Ye s .

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

And the succeeding paragraphs you

in d i c a t e w h a t is s u e s y o u w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g a s r e g a r d s th e m a k e u p o f
t h is E T C , w h a t s t e p s y o u t o o k a n d y o u h a v e e a r l i e r t e s ti fi e d t o t h is a n d
y o u c o n c l u d e th a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 2 11 . T h a t M r L a h o r e i s t h e p r i m a r y
a u t h o r o f t h e Ex c e l s p r e a d s h e e t s th a t fr o n t p a r t o f y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
F u r th e r th a t h e is a s i g n a t o r y to t h e B a f o e v a lu a ti o n o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4
10

a n d w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e n e g o ti a ti n g t e a m . A s 2 11 o n e o v e r l y p a g e 5 6 ,
y o u d o n o t e x p r e s s o f y o u a n d y o u s a i d , y o u s ta t e t h a t M r L a h o r e s a i d
h a d c e r t a i n r e le v a n t i n fo r m a ti o n t o t h e e x e r c is e y o u w e r e to u n d e r t a k e
a n d y o u s t a t e w i t h th is k n o w le d g e I w a s d is a p p o i n te d th a t t h e e x e r c is e
u n d e r t a k e n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 w a s in g o o d f a i t h b u t L a h o r e w i t h f u l l
k n o w l e d g e o f t h e p r i c i n g d e t a i ls a n d n e g o ti a ti o n s c h o s e n o t t o s h a r e
t h is k n o w l e d g e i n c l u d i n g t h e s p r e a d s h e e t s a n d e v a lu a ti o n r e p o r ts w i t h
t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e t e a m t o a r r iv e a t a n h o n e s t a n d a c c u r a t e
a s s e s s m e n t o f th e i n c r e a s e i n E T C fr o m 3 8 .6 b il li o n t o 4 9 . 5 5 b i ll io n o r
5 4 b i ll i o n o p t io n s a r e i n c lu d e d . Yo u s e e th a t?

20

MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

Correct.

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

M r L a h o r e d e a ls w i t h w h a t y o u s t a t e th a t

fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 9 7 a s r e g a r d s to th is e x e r c is e y o u u n d e r t o o k i n y o u r
c o n c l u s i o n t h a t I h a v e j u s t r e a d i n th e v ie w y o u e x p r e s s e d in y o u r
d is a p p o in t m e n t i n h is p a r a g r a p h s 6 4 a n d 6 5 o f t h e s t a t e m e n t ; s e c o n d
s t a te m e n t o f M r L a h o r e .

Page 53 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : It i s fr o m p a g e s 1 6 o n t o 1 7 o f M r L a h o r e ’s
s t a te m e n t . A t 6 4 h e s a y s w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o y o u r p a r a g r a p h 2 11 . 1 a n d
2 11 . 1 is w h e r e y o u e x p r e s s y o u r d is a p p o i n t m e n t w i t h h is c o n d u c t t h a t
h e h a d fu ll k n o w l e d g e t h e p r ic in g d e t a i ls b u t h e d i d n o t s h a r e i t . H e
c h o s e n o t to s h a r e i t w i th th e t e a m . I n t h is r e g a r d h e s a y s , I d o n o t th e
in s i n u a ti o n b y Mr C a l la r d t h a t I h a d s o m e h o w d e li b e r a te ly a n d w i t h o u t
ju s t c a u s e w i th h e l d i n fo r m a ti o n fr o m h i m o r a n y o th e r p e r s o n . I s i g n e d
a c o n f i d e n ti a li ty a g r e e m e n t f o r t h i s te n d e r a n d a s s u c h c o u l d n o t s h a r e
10

a n y a u g m e n t a ti o n w i th a t h i r d - p a r ty in c l u d i n g Tr a n s n e t e m p l o y e e s n o t
in v o lv e d in t h is t e n d e r u n le s s I r e c e iv e d e x p r e s s p e r m is s io n to d o s o
fr o m a d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty w h ic h i n t h is c a s e I d id n o t g e t. Yo u s e e
that?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : W o u l d y o u li k e to c o m m e n t o n Mr L a h o r e ’s
r e s p o n s e t o y o u r d is a p p o in t m e n t a n d h o w h e c o n d u c t e d h i m s e l f i n th is
e x e r c is e b y f a i li n g t o s h a r e i n f o r m a t io n ?
M R F R A N C I S C A L LA R D :

W e ll , I f u lly r e s p e c t t h e c o n fi d e n t ia li ty

a g r e e m e n ts w h i c h a g r e e m e n t w h ic h M r L a h o r e m a y, w h ic h M r L a h o r e
20

s ig n e d th a t i t d o e s n o t t a k e a w a y fr o m t h e p o i n t th a t h e h a d fu ll
k n o w l e d g e o f t h e d e t a i ls n e g o ti a ti o n s i n t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts . W e w e r e l e d
in t o a n e x e r c is e w h e r e h e h a d k n o w l e d g e o f th e d e t a i l e d n e g o t ia t io n s
a n d s p r e a d s h e e t s b u t m u c h o f th a t i n f a c t , b y f a r t h e g r e a t e r p a r t o f
t h a t w o r k c o u l d h a v e b e e n a v o i d e d o r s i m p l i fi e d b y s a y i n g I h a v e
k n o w l e d g e o f t h e s e d e t a i le d s p r e a d s h e e t s a n d n e g o ti a ti o n s . I c a n n o t

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
s h a r e th e m b e c a u s e o f c o n fi d e n t i a l it y a g r e e m e n ts a n d t h e n e g o ti a ti o n ,
a n d th e r e c o n c i li a ti o n e x e r c is e . T h e b a c k w a r d lo o k in g e x e r c is e w o u l d
h a v e t a k e n a d i ff e r e n t p a t h ; w o u ld h a v e s a i d e i t h e r w e n e e d t o h a v e
a c c e s s t o th o s e f o r m a l ly a s a t e a m o r r e s tr ic t th e te a m t o th o s e w h o
c o u l d h a v e a c c e s s t o t h is k n o w l e d g e . W e w e r e n o w e ff e c ti v e ly
o p e r a ti n g in t h e d a r k b u t M r L a h o r e s t il l h a d f u l l k n o w l e d g e o f t h e
n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d s p r e a d s h e e ts .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O S C : N o w m y r e a d i n g o f M r C a ll a r d ’s p a r a g r a p h
6 4 a n d w h a t y o u s ta t e d i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : M r L a h o r e ’s o n e ?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

Mr L a h o r e , I a p o lo g i z e . W h a t d id I c a l l?

Mr L a h o r e 6 4 .

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

Th a n k y o u . M r L a h o r e . Is w h a t w e k n o w i s

t h is r e c o n c ili a ti o n e x e r c i s e t a k e s p l a c e i n 2 0 1 8 ?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 t o b e p r e c is e ?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : T h e c o n tr a c t s w e r e ; t h e n e g o t ia t io n s w e r e
in t h e b e g in n in g o f 2 0 1 4 ?
20

M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : T h e n e g o ti a ti o n s w e r e i n M a r c h 2 0 1 4 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

A n d th e c o n tr a c ts c o n c l u d e d s h o r tl y

t h e r e a f te r ?
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

I f s e r v e s m e c o r r e c tl y t h e y w e r e s i g n e d o n

the 17th of March.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC: 2014?

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
MR FRANCIS CALLARD: 2014.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O S C :

So by January 2018 the contracts were

c o n c l u d e d a n d t h e O E M s w e r e e x e c u t in g a n d Tr a n s n e t w e r e e x e c u t in g
t h is c o n tr a c t?
MR FRANCIS CALLARD: Correct.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : N o w t h is c o n fi d e n t ia li t y a g r e e m e n t s i g n e d
n o t t o s h a r e i n fo r m a ti o n r e g a r d i n g t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s . O d w h a t r e l e v a n c e
w a s i t i n 2 0 1 8 w h e n t h e c o n tr a c ts w e r e a lr e a d y c o n c lu d e d ?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : I c a n n o t c o m m e n t w i t h d e t a il o n t h a t b e c a u s e
10

I h a d n o t s e e n t h e o r w a s a w a r e o f t h e c o n fi d e n t ia l , n o . I w a s n o t a w a r e
o f th e d e t a il o f c o n f i d e n ti a l i ty a g r e e m e n ts w h ic h t h e m e m b e r s t h e
evaluation committee had signed. I was aware that they had signed
c o n fi d e n ti a li ty a g r e e m e n ts a t t h e t i m e i n 2 0 1 3 b e g i n n i n g 2 0 1 4 . T h i s
a s p e c t w a s n e v e r d is c u s s e d o r r a is e d , c o r r e c t io n . I n 2 0 1 8 w h e n w e d i d
t h is e x e r c is e a s I m e n t i o n e d i n m y e v id e n c e , th e r e w a s a b r i e f
p r e s e n t a ti o n w e r e s o m e o f t h e d e t a il fr o m t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts w a s p u t u p
o n a s c r e e n a n d a s I s a i d I b e l ie v e d t h a t th a t w a s g e r m a n e t o t h e
r e c o n c i li a ti o n a n d w a s to l d t h a t w e c o u ld n o t g e t th e m . N o w t h e y w il l
p u t u p a p r e s e n ta t io n w h e r e M r L a h o r e a n d o t h e r s w e r e p r e s e n t . W e

20

s a i d w e c o u l d n o t g e t th e m . I s a i d i f w e a r e t o d o a f u l l r e c o n c il ia t io n
w e s h o u l d g e t th e m . I o n l y g o t t h o s e r e c o n c i li a ti o n s , c o r r e c t i o n . I o n ly
g o t th o s e g a in e d a c c e s s t o t h e s p r e a d s h e e t s a ft e r w e h a d c o m p l e t e d
o u r r e c o n c i li a ti o n , o u r b a c k w a r d l o o k in g m o d e l a n d th a t w a s w h a t
d is t u r b e d m e n o e n d . T h a t t h e i n fo r m a ti o n w a s a v a il a b l e b u t w e c o u l d
n o t b r i n g i t i n t o n o r c o u ld Mr L a h o r e b r i n g i t i n t o n o r w a s t h e r e a n y

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
s t a te m e n t to t h e e ffe c t o f t h i s is r e l e v a n t in f o r m a ti o n w h i c h w e s h o u l d
b e b r i n g i n g i n to o u r r e c o n c il ia t io n c a lc u l a ti o n . B u t w a s s il e n t t h e a s p e c t
a n d a s I h a v e te s t i fi e d o n l y g a i n e d a c c e s s t o t h o s e a f t e r w a r d s
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : H e g o e s f u r t h e r i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h to s ta t e
t h a t d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts r e a d in g in t o 1 0 6 4 w a s a l w a y s
m a in t a i n e d b y s u p p ly - c h a in .
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

H e s a y s a c c e s s i s a n d w a s s tr ic tl y

r e s tr ic t e d a n d c o n tr o l l e d b y Ms M d le t s h e f r o m S C S . N o w a t t h e t i m e
10

y o u w e r e u n d e r t a k i n g th is e x e r c is e , d id M r L a h o r e i n d ic a t e to y o u th a t
g e n tl e m a n , a ll in f o r m a t io n y o u r e q u ir e a c t u a ll y e x is ts ? I t is g o i n g c o ld
b y M s M d l e ts h e . I a m b o u n d b y c o n f i d e n ti a l it y a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e r e f o r e
c a n n o t d is c l o s e i t to y o u . D id h e e v e r s t a t e a n y t h in g o f t h e s o r t ?
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

To t h e b e s t o f m y r e c o l le c ti o n , a n d t h e

p r e s e n t a ti o n w h e n th e o n e s p r e a d s h e e t w a s s h o w n b y o n e o f M r
L a h o r e ’s s u b o r d in a te s o n t h e s c r e e n , I s a i d th a t i s w h a t w e n e e d . T h e y
s a i d , t e r r i b ly s o r r y t h a t c o n f id e n ti a l . W e c a n n o t g e t a c c e s s t o t h a t o r
s h a r e t h a t w i t h t h e t e a m . I c a n n o t s ta t e c a t e g o r ic a l ly w h e th e r M s
M d le t s h e ’s n a m e w a s m e n ti o n e d o r n o t m e n ti o n e d a t t h e t i m e . I c a n n o t
20

s a y.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O S C : B u t d i d h e g iv e y o u a n y k i n d o f d ir e c ti o n
a s to h o w t o o v e r c o m e t h i s d i ffic u lt y ; w h o t o a d d r e s s in o r d e r t o g e t
a c c e s s t o th is i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t is c a ll e d a n d q u o t e c o n fi d e n ti a l?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : T h e b e s t o f my r e c o l l e c ti o n h e s a id y e s y o u
w o u ld h a v e to g e t th a t i n f o r m a ti o n f r o m t h e c h i e f fi n a n c i a l o ffi c e r a t t h e

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
ti m e w h ic h p a t h I s u b s e q u e n t ly fo ll o w e d a n d t h a t is h o w I e v e n tu a lly
g o t h o l d o f th e i n f o r m a ti o n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : H e d o e s s t a t e i n h is p a r a g r a p h 3 5 t h a t y o u
e v e n t u a l ly g o t th e i n f o r m a ti o n .
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

W h a t I d o n o t s e e m t o s e e is t h a t y o u

m a n a g e d to g e t a c c e s s t o th e i n f o r m a ti o n a ft e r y o u h a d c o m p l e t e d th e
e x e r c is e .
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : I g o t a c c e s s t o th e i n f o r m a ti o n a f te r w e h a d
10

c o m p le t e d t h e e x e r c i s e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC: And.
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : O r c e r t a i n l y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : I t w a s n o t i n t i m e t o a ff e c t t h e , t o a ff e c t t h e
e x e r c is e . I w a n t s a y h o w lo n g a t t h e m o m e n t a f t e r t h e e x e r c is e w h e t h e r
it w a s a d a y o r t w o o r i t w a s a d a y b e f o r e t h e e x e r c is e w a s c o m p l e t e d
b u t w e h a d e ff e c ti v e ly c o m p l e te d t h e e x e r c is e w h e n th e i n f o r m a t io n
b e c a m e a v a il a b l e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : A n d i s t h is t h e f ir s t a n d b e h e r e t h a t M r

20

L a h o r e d i d n o t p r o v i d e y o u w i t h t h a t i n f o r m a t io n p u r e ly b e c a u s e h e h a d
s ig n e d a c o n f i d e n ti a l i ty a g r e e m e n t o r d id y o u b e c o m e a w a r e o f t h a t f a c t
beforehand?
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

T h e th r u s t o f m y d is a p p o in t m e n t l ie s i n th e

e l e m e n t in th e p o i n t t h a t w i t h k n o w l e d g e o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n c o n t a i n e d i n
t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts .

Page 58 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

A n d w h a t a s I h a v e d e s c r i b e d t h e ti m e li n e

t h a t th e s p e c i a l p r o v i d e s a s t o h o w t h e fi n a l p r ic e w a s a s t o t h e f in a l
price.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

A n d w h il e i t d o e s n o t a lw a y s r e f le c t a

d e t e r m i n a t io n o f t h e p r i c e . I t r e f le c ts t h e p r ic e i t s e l f a n d t h e r e a r e , I
w o u ld u s e t h e p h r a s e g u a r d e d ly b u t t h e r e a r e b a c k w a r d l o o k i n g
c a l c u l a ti o n s
10

in

it

to

j u s ti f y

th e

f in a l

p r ic e

or

forward-looking

c a l c u l a ti o n s . H o w e v e r, t h e y w o u l d p u t a t t h e ti m e w i t h t h a t i n f o r m a t io n
in t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts a s to w e c o u l d n o t te s t t h e v a li d i ty o r t h e i n t e g r i t y
o f t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n i n o u r f o r w a r d - l o o k i n g e x e r c is e w h ic h w e u n d e r t o o k .
S o w h il e th is i n f o r m a ti o n w a s h e r e w e w e r e c o n d u c t i n g a f o r w a r d lo o k in g e x e r c is e b u t it w a s to t a l ly u n r e l a t e d t o a n d c o u l d n o t te s t o r
r e l a t e t o a n y t h e s u b s ta n ti v e e le m e n ts t h a t e x i s t e d i n th e s p r e a d s h e e t,
t h a t e x i s t e d i n t h e s p r e a d s h e e t . H e n c e , s o f o r e x a m p l e th e f o u r k e y
e l e m e n ts ; w h a t w a s t h e b a s e l in in g e s c a l a t io n , w h a t w a s t h e b a s e l in in g
f o r a n e x c h a n g e t o b e u s e d fr o m th e ti m e a t t h e t e n d e r, w h a t w a s th e n
t h e fo r w a r d - lo o k in g e s c a l a ti o n a n d w h a t w a s t h e f o r w a r d - l o o k i n g

20

hedging

and

a s s u m p t io n s

and

tables

th a t

would

i n fo r m

th o s e

d e t e r m i n i s t ic c a lc u l a ti o n s . N o n e o f t h a t w a s a v a il a b l e o r a s w e , a s I
s t il l u n d e r s ta n d c a n b e m a d e a v a il a b l e . A n d t h a t w a s w h a t I w a s
e x tr e m e l y d is a p p o i n te d th a t i t w a s a s i n g l e o n e d i m e n s i o n a l v i e w a n d I
a m a t t h e v i e w t h a t it w a s a n a t t e m p t to d o a b a c k w a r d j u s t if ic a ti o n o f
t h e fi n a l p r i c e .

Page 59 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

N o w j u s t r e m i n d u s a g a i n . W h e n d id y o u

c o m p le t e th is e x e r c is e ?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : It w a s a b o u t e a r l y in F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : I a m l o o k i n g a t Mr L a h o r e ’s p a r a g r a p h 6 4
a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 6 a n d h e s ta t e s a f t e r s a y i n g t h a t y o u w e r e
e v e n t u a l ly p r o v i d e d w i th s p r e a d s h e e ts a n d y o u h a v e te s t i fi e d t h a t th a t
w a s a ft e r t h e e x e r c is e w a s c o m p le t e d . Yo u s a y th a t y o u o n ly g o t a c c e s s
t o t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts a f te r y o u h a d c o m p l e t e d t h e e x e r c is e . R i g h t ?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : Ye s .
10

A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O S C : A n d w h e n h e s a y s s o y o u w e r e e v e n t u a ll y
p r o v i d e d . H e d o e s n o t a d d r e s s th e q u e s ti o n w h e th e r y o u w e r e a b l e t o
u s e t h e m to d i s c h a r g e y o u r d u t i e s i n t e r m s o f th e b r i e f y o u h a d . H e
g o e s f u r t h e r h o w e v e r, h e s a y s a n d I q u o t e , in a n y c a s e I w a s n o t in
p o s s e s s i o n o f th e fi n a l s i g n e d fi n a n c e e v a l u a ti o n r e p o r ts in J a n u a r y
2 0 1 8 . I r e q u e s t e d a c o p y o f t h e f in a l s i g n e d fi n a n c e e v a l u a t io n r e p o r t
fr o m M s M d l e t s h e in J u n e 2 0 1 8 a n d I o n ly r e c e i v e d a c o p y t h e n in J u n e
2 0 1 8 a n d h e d o e s n o t s a y a n y t h in g f u r t h e r. W h a t v a l u e w o u l d h a v e
b e e n t h e s e r e p o r ts t o y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n i f y o u o n ly r e q u e s t e d t h e m in
June 2018? Would they have been of any value?

20

MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

C e r t a i n l y t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a s th e y

w o u ld h a v e i n fo r m e d t h e p r o c e s s . A t t h e ti m e o f th a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e
a ls o d i d n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o th o s e r e p o r t s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : R e m e m b e r i n th is h e d o e s i n J u n e 2 0 1 8 .
Yo u s a i d th e e x e r c is e is c o m p l e t e d i n Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 .
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : T h e e x e r c is e w a s c o m p l e t e d i n Fe b r u a r y 1 8 .

Page 60 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC: So what would you have done with them in
June 2018?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : In J u n e 2 0 1 8 n o t h i n g . T h e r e p o r t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n ; I h a v e c o m p l e t e d t h e e x e r c is e i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 . S o J u n e 2 0 1 8 ,
n o , t h e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n o f n o u s e t o u s t h e n . H a d t h e y b e e n a v a i l a b le
a t t h e ti m e in F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 a s w e h a v e s e e n h e r e t h e y w o u l d h a v e
in f o r m e d a n d t h e y

would

have

in f o r m e d

the

a n a ly s is

w h ic h

we

u n d e r t o o k a t th a t ti m e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
10

M R F R A N C I S C A L LA R D :

A s i t w a s o n e o f t h e r a t h e r s p e c i fic p o i n ts

w a s , I b r o u g h t i n f o r m a ti o n t o t h e m e e t i n g w h ic h w a s in th e p u b l ic
d o m a i n w h ic h h a d b e e n o b ta i n e d t h r o u g h a n A c c e s s t o In f o r m a t io n A c t
o n t h e l o c o m o t iv e te n d e r s . I t a p p e a r e d w h a t w a s , I s a y ‘ a p p e a r e d ’ b u t it
w a s g iv e n to m e i n t h a t m e e t in g t h a t e v e n M r L a h o r e a n d M r M u ll e r a s
t h e c o - m e m b e r s o f t h e te a m h a d n o t s e e n t h o s e r e p o r ts y e t t h o u g h t h e y
w e r e i n th e p u b li c d o m a in a s v a r i o u s p a r t i e s h a d r e q u e s t e d th e m
t h r o u g h a n Ac c e s s t o i n fo r m a t i o n A c t . I t p r o v i d e d s o m e i n s ig h t to t h e
in f o r m a ti o n . I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n u s e f u l t o h a v e h a d t h e s ig n e d f in a n c ia l
e v a l u a t i o n r e p o r t s a v a il a b l e t o f o r c o r r e l a ti o n o f t h e i n fo r m a ti o n .
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : H e i s s il e n t o n t h e n e x t a s p e c t I w o u l d l ik e
t o c a n v a s w it h y o u . W e k n o w a c c o r d i n g t o h i m , h e t h e n r e c e iv e d a c o p y
o f t h e s e fi n a n c e e v a l u a t i o n r e p o r t w h ic h y o u s a i d w o u l d h a v e b e e n
r e l e v a n t t o t h e e x e r c is e th a t y o u u n d e r t o o k a n d c o m p le t e d in F e b r u a r y
2 0 1 8 . Yo u s a i d th a t y o u o n ly r e c e iv e d t h e m i n J u n e 2 0 1 8 .
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : I d id n o t r e c e iv e th e m … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

N o w, m y q u e s ti o n t o y o u is h e h a v i n g

r e c e i v e d t h e m i n J u n e 2 0 1 8 , d i d y o u a t a n y ti m e a f t e r t h a t d a t e b e
f u r n is h e d w i t h th e v e r y d o c u m e n t s b y M r L a h o r e ?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : N o , n o t b y Mr L a h o r e a t a ll .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : O k a y.
MR FRANCIS CALLARD: I was, no not by Mr Lahore.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC: So now you know what Mr Lahore says in
r e s p o n s e to y o u r d i s a p p o i n t m e n t th a t y o u e x p r e s s e d a t p a r a g r a p h
2 11 . 1 . H a s y o u r d is a p p o i n t m e n t m i n i m i z e d i n a n y m a n n e r n o w t h a t M r
10

L a h o r e h a s e x p l a i n e d h is p o s i ti o n ?
MR FRANCIS CALLARD: Not at all.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : T h a t w o u l d b r in g u s t h e n t o th e c o n c l u s i o n
o f th e q u e s t i o n o f t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts a n d I w o u ld li k e t o f in d o u t. D o y o u
h a v e a n y o t h e r c o m m e n t s t h a t a r e r e le v a n t f o r t h e C h a ir i n r e g a r d s to
M r L a h o r e r e s p o n s e in ; t h e w h o l e o f M r L a h o r e ’s r e s p o n s e w h ic h w a s
m a d e a v a il a b l e to y o u a s w e ll a s h i s o r i g in a l s t a t e m e n t ? Is t h e r e
a n y th in g y o u w o u l d l ik e t o s h a r e w i t h th e C h a i r i n r e s p e c t t o t h e t w o
d o c u m e n ts ? I n s o f a r a s a n y th in g i n th e r e i s r e l e v a n t t o y o u r e v i d e n c e .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

20

I n s o f a r a s t h e p r o c e s s g o e s , I s t a n d b y my

p o i n t t h a t Mr L a h o r e h a d k n o w l e d g e o f t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts a n d th e
d e t a i l e d i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t h e w a s b o u n d b y t h e c o n f i d e n ti a l i ty a g r e e m e n t
b u t c o u l d h a v e h ig h li g h t e d th a t to t h e e v a lu a ti o n g r o u p . T h a t w e c o u ld
t h e n e i t h e r h a d a c c e s s t o t h a t a n d p r o c e e d e d o n a m o r e i n fo r m e d b a s is
w i t h o u r e v a l u a t io n . T h e s e c o n d c o m m e n t is th a t n o w h e r e i n h e r e o r
a n y o f t h e fi g u r e s in t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts t h e m s e lv e s d is p u t e d o r b r o u g h t

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
in t o q u e s t i o n a t a ll . W e h a v e I h a v e t e s t if ie d t o a n y t h i n g i t i s c o m m o n
c a u s e t h a t t h e s p r e a d s h e e t s r e fl e c t t h e fi n a l p r ic e p a i d fo r th e
lo c o m o t iv e s . I n o t e I t e s t i fi e d t h a t t h e y p r o v id e a t i m e l i n e o f e v e n ts a n d
a d d r e s s e d c e r ta i n a n o m a l ie s in t h e s p r e a d s h e e t s t h e ms e lv e s w h ic h
w e r e , c a m e fr o m a n a n a ly s is s p r e a d s h e e t . Mr L a h o r e d o e s n o t ta lk to
t h o s e a n o m a l ie s . H e ta lk e d t o t h e a n o m a l i e s b u t o n l y i n a v e r y s p e c if ic
m a n n e r a n d m a y I a d d r e s s th a t m a t te r in w h ic h h e t a l k s to t h e m .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Yo u m a y.
M R F R A N C I S C A L LA R D :
10

I w o u ld l ik e t o t h e n ta k e t o ; I w o u l d l ik e t o

s t a r t a t h i s p a r a g r a p h 5 6 p l e a s e w h i c h i s o n p a g e a n d t h is w i ll b e a
common tenor through many of the subsequent paragraphs.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s . S ta r ti n g a t p a g e 1 2 . Is t h a t ?
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

S t a r t in g a t p a g e 1 2 , th e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 2

paragraph 56.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

W i t h r e f e r e n c e t o p a r a g r a p h 2 0 8 .1 o f Mr

C a ll a r d ’s s t a t e m e n t . Th e c o s t o f e s c a l a ti o n s a s c a p tu r e d in t h e
s p r e a d s h e e t w e r e o b t a i n e d d ir e c tl y f r o m b i d d e r s u b m i s s i o n s . R e f e r
v a r io u s A n n e x u r e s . T h e n I r u n t o p a g e 1 3 a l m o s t to t h e e n d o f t h e
20

paragraph.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

To t h e e x te n t t h a t M r C a l la r d is in s i n u a t in g

t h a t th e e s c a l a ti o n s w e r e i n f l a t e d , I n e v e r i n fl a t e d a n y e s c a la t io n s . I
s i m p l y r e p o r te d th e b r e a k d o w n o f th e l o c o m o ti v e p r i c e a s p r o v i d e d b y
t h e b i d d e r s is w h a t w a s fi n a ll y a g r e e d . T h a t r e l a te s t o e s c a l a ti o n s .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

I f I g o t o p a r a g r a p h 5 7 i t f o ll o w s a s i m il a r

t e n o r i n r e s p e c t o f fo r e ig n - e x c h a n g e . W i t h r e s p e c t t o m y s t a t e m e n t , m y
p a r a g r a p h 2 0 8 . 2 fo r e ig n - e x c h a n g e c o m p o n e n t a s c a p tu r e d i n t h e
s p r e a d s h e e ts w e r e o b ta i n e d d ir e c tly fr o m b id d e r s u b m i s s i o n s . I g o t o
the end of the paragraph.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : T h e e x te n t t h a t M r C a l la r d i s in s i n u a t in g t h a t
t h e f o r e i g n - e x c h a n g e c o s t s w e r e i n fl a te d . I d i d n o t i n fl a t e a n y f o r e i g n 10

e x c h a n g e c o s t s . I s i m p ly r e p o r t e d th e b r e a k d o w n o f t h e l o c o m o t iv e
p r i c e i s p r o v i d e d b y t h e b i d d e r s a n d w h a t w a s f i n a ll y a g r e e d . A s i m il a r
tenor goes through paragraph 58. The cost to the reduced batch sizes
w a s m e r e l y a r e c o r d o f t h e b id d e r s u b m is s i o n s b a s e d o n t h e o u tc o m e o f
t h e n e g o ti a ti o n p r o c e s s . T h e e n d o f t h e p a r a g r a p h w h ic h is a t p a g e 1 4 .
To th e e x t e n t th a t I w a s i n s in u a ti n g t h a t t h e b a tc h p r ic in g w e r e i n fl a t e d ,
I n e v e r i n fl a te d a n y b a tc h p r i c i n g . I s i m p l y r e c o r d e d t h e b r e a k d o w n o f
t h e p r ic e s p r o v i d e d b y t h e b i d d e r s o n w h a t w a s f in a lly a g r e e d b y t h e
s u b c o m m i t t e e . P a r a g r a p h 5 9 w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o a g a in p a r a g r a p h 2 0 8 . 4 o f
m y s t a t e m e n t . I t w a s n o t my r e s p o n s i b i li ty o r a n y o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e

20

fi n a n c e s u p p o r t t e a m a t a n y s ta g e d u r i n g t h i s t e n d e r t o m a n a g e l o c a l
c o n te n t r e q u ir e m e n t s . I g o t h r o u g h t o t h e e n d o f t h e p a r a g r a p h . To t h e
e x t e n t t h a t M r C a l l a r d is i n s i n u a t i n g t h a t I w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e l o c a l
c o n te n t r e q u ir e m e n t s o r t h a t f o r e i g n - e x c h a n g e a m o u n ts w e r e i n fl a te d . I
n e v e r i n fl a te d a n y f o r e i g n - e x c h a n g e c o m p o n e n t a m o u n ts . I s i m p ly
r e c o r d e d th e b r e a k d o w n o f th e l o c a l p r i c e a s g i v e n b y t h e b i d d e r s

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
b a s e d o n w h a t w a s fi n a ll y a g r e e d b y t h e s u b c o m m i t t e e . I w a s a ls o n o t
r e s p o n s i b l e fo r m a n a g i n g th e l o c o m o t iv e c o n te n t fo r p r ic e s . I s u b m i t
t h a t I t a b l e d th e s p r e a d s h e e t s a s r e fl e c ti o n o f w h a t e x is te d a n d w h a t is
a d d r e s s e d h e r e d o e s n o t a n d I h ig h l i g h te d n u m e r o u s c o n s i d e r a b le
a n o m a li e s in t h e s p r e a d s h e e t . Th is d o e s n o t a d d r e s s a n y o f t h e
a n o m a li e s in t h e s p r e a d s h e e t e x c e p t fo r M r L a h o r e ’s s t a te m e n t t h a t h e
r e c o r d e d w h a t th e b i d d e r s p r o v i d e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i n a w a y, i t is lik e w h e r e i n r e l a t io n to a n o t h e r

p o i n t , h e w a s s a y i n g it w a s M r S i n g h w h o t o l d h i m t h e in f o r m a ti o n a n d
10

h e t h e n w e n t a l o n g . S o h e r e h e s a y s h e g o t i t fr o m t h e b id d e r ’s
s u b m is s io n s a n d ju s t r e c o r d e d i t?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : H e g o t i t f r o m t h e b i d d e r ’s s u b m is s i o n s a n d
ju s t r e c o r d e d i t a n d I h a v e n o t g o n e th r o u g h p o o r s t a te m e n t s l ik e th a t .
M y s ta t e m e n t o n t h e s p r e a d s h e e t s t h a t t h e y, s ta n d s t h a t t h e a n o m a li e s
in t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts s t il l p e r ta in . I f Mr Si n g h j u s t , M r L a h o r e ju s t
r e c o r d e d t h e m t h a t i s w h a t h e s a y s b u t i t d o e s n o t e x p la i n a n y o f t h e
a n o m a li e s in t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts w h a ts o e v e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

20

A n d fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e r e a d t h o s e

e x c e r p ts f r o m t h e v a r io u s p a r a g r a p h s , w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e a n d e s c a l a t i o n a n d a ll o f t h e v a r i o u s c o s ts b a s e d o n h is
p r o g r e s s y o u h a v e r e a d , h is s t o c k a n s w e r i s t h a t I m e r e l y r e c o r d e d ?
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : H is s t o c k a n s w e r i s t h a t o n t h o s e o n e s th a t I
h a v e g i v e n h e s a y s , I s i m p ly r e c o r d e d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : I s i m p ly r e c o r d e d i n th e s p r e a d s h e e t.

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : I s i m p ly r e c o r d e d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

N o w I th in k y o u t e s ti fi e d th a t M r H u g h

S o fl a h a r e w a s p a r t o f t h e f i n a n c e n e g o t i a t i n g t e a m .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD: Correct.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : A n d a l l … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : H e s a y s s o h i m s e l f i n h is s t a t e m e n t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

I n h is s ta t e m e n t . A n d a ll h e d o e s i s

r e c o r d ? S o h e w a s , a c c o r d in g to h i m h e w a s r e d u c e d t o a d a t a
c a p tu r e r ?
10

MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

H e h a s s t a t e d n u m e r o u s ti m e s , I s i m p ly

recorded.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d o e s n o t s e e m t o h a v e q u e s ti o n e d a n y t h in g ?
M R FR A N C I S C A L L A R D : I fi n d ; I h a v e n o t s e e n a n y th in g w h i c h s a y s I
h a v e a n a ly s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : Te s t e d t h e v e r a c it y o f .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR FRANCIS CALLARD: Added value to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d g iv e n a d v ic e a s a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t ?
20

MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

H e d o e s m e n ti o n t h a t i n o n e o r tw o p la c e s

e a r l ie r o n t h e n e g o t i a t i o n p r o c e s s o n t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e n e g o ti a ti o n a n d
o n s o m e fi g u r e s b u t i n s o f a r a s th e s e s p r e a d s h e e ts a r e g o i n g in t h e
p a r a g r a p h s I h a v e r e a d h e li m i ts h i m s e l f . I r e a d i t a s li m i ti n g to s i m p ly
recording.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 66 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

I w o u l d fu r t h e r a d d th a t w i t h p a r a g r a p h 6 0 ,

t h e s id e b a r c a lc u l a ti o n w h e r e I m e n ti o n e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e l o c o m o ti v e
c a l c u l a ti o n s w h ic h i n d ic a t e d in d ic a t iv e l o c o m o ti v e p r ic e s … ( i n d is t in c t ) .
T h e h i g h e r e n d o f 5 0 t o 6 0 m i ll io n p e r l o c o m o ti v e . H e s a y s t h e s id e b a r
c a l c u l a ti o n h a s n o b e a r i n g o n t h e r e c o r d o f th e f in a l p r i c i n g . I a m n o t
a w a r e o f th e p a s s a g e t a lk t h a t Mr … ( in d i s t in c t ) is r e f e r r in g t o . H o w e v e r,
I w i ll d r a w a c o n n e c t i o n b e tw e e n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 o f h is fir s t s ta t e m e n t .
W h e r e h e s a i d t h a t i t a p p e a r e d th a t th e p r o c e s s o f n e g o ti a ti o n b e w a s
t o h a v e a n u p p e r p r ic e a n d a l it t le p r ic e a n d t h e n n e g o ti a te b e t w e e n . I
10

b e li e v e t h a t I c o n te n d th a t t h o s e s i d e b a r c a lc u l a ti o n s a r e b u t p a r t o f
t h a t p r o c e s s o f a n u p p e r p r ic e o r a l o w e r p r ic e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : H m o k a y. W e l l t h e n M r C a ll a r d b e f o r e I s a y
Mr Lahore.
M R F R A N C I S C A L L A R D : A n d s o r r y, t h e s a m e a l s o h o l d s f o r p a r a g r a p h
6 1 n e g o ti a ti o n p r i c e r e c o n . To th e e x te n t t h a t Mr C a ll a r d is i n s i n u a ti n g
that

I

reported

inexpressible

d is c o u n ts .

I

did

not

report

th e

in e x p r e s s i b l e d is c o u n t s o n th e s p r e a d s h e e t a n d t h e s p r e a d s h e e t w a s
p r e p a r e d f o r il lu s tr a t iv e p u r p o s e s a n d n o t u s e d f o r a n y p u r p o s e o n t h e
fi n a l r e c o n . S o i f t h e fi n a l r e c o n w a s f o r a n il lu s t r a t iv e p u r p o s e b u t n o t
20

f o r a n y r e c o n , I a m a t l o s s e s t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O S C :

S o t h e v e r y s p r e a d s h e e ts y o u r e q u ir e d

a n d r e l ie d u p o n t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u c o u l d g e t a c c e s s t o t h e m w e r e
n o t r e l e v a n t f o r t h e r e c o n . Th e y w e r e j u s t .
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

T h is i s n o w w h a t , w h a t w o u ld a p p e a r fr o m

t h is , y e s .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

O k a y. I g u e s s h e w i ll h e h a d b e tt e r l i g h t

w h e n th a t ti m e c o m e s . T h a t t h e n M r C a l l a r d o n m y a s s e s s m e n t b r in g s
u s t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f M r L a h o r e ’s r e s p o n s e to y o u r s ta t e m e n t a n d
evidence.
MR FRANCIS CALLARD:

M a y j u s t m a k e o n e o t h e r p o i n t p le a s e ? I

a tt r i b u t e d Mr L a h o r e a s b e i n g a p r i m a r y a u t h o r o f t h e s p r e a d s h e e t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
MR

FRANCIS

CALLARD:

He

says

he

was

involved

in

the

s p r e a d s h e e ts . In t h e n e g o t ia t io n s t a g e h e w a s o n e o f t h e te a m a n d i n
10

t h e , s o r r y i n t h e e v a l u a ti o n p h a s e th e r e w e r e t e a m m e m b e r s w h o h a d
a c c e s s t o t h e s p r e a d s h e e t. In t h e n e g o t i a ti o n p h a s e i t w a s h i m a n d
Donnie Smit. He does not say he was the pri – he says he was not the
p r i m a r y a u t h o r. H o w e v e r, i n d is c u s s i o n s w h ic h w e h a d p r e v i o u s ly w h e n
it w a s p u t t o h i m t h a t h e w a s th e m a i n p e r s o n in p u tt i n g i n f o r m a ti o n i n
the spreadsheets he said, he agreed that he was; nodded that he was
t h e m a i n p e r s o n p u t t in g i n f o r m a ti o n i n t h e s p r e a d s h e e ts . A n d I t h i n k t h e
s t a te m e n ts I h a v e r e f e r r e d t o h e r e w h e r e h e s a id h e s i m p ly r e c o r d e d I
t h i n k c o r r e l a t e s w i t h t h a t n o ti o n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO SC:

20

Ye s . I t h in k in t h e m a i n , h e t a k e s i s s u e

w i t h th e s u g g e s t io n th a t h e w a s t h e p r i m a r y a u t h o r n o t t h a t h e w a s a
c o - a u t h o r.
MR FRANCIS CALLARD: Ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , I s e e h i m p e r h a p s . Is i t tr u e h e p r o c e e d s w it h

s a y in g h e s i m p l y r e c o r d e d ? Yo u m a y h a v e r e f e r r e d u s to t h a t o n e

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
a lr e a d y b u t I s e e th e r e t o o h e s a y s I s i m p ly r e c o r d e d t h e b r e a k d o w n o f
t h e lo c o m o t iv e p r ic e a s p r o v i d e d b y b i d d e r s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O S C : Ye s C h a ir. O k a y t h e n th a t b r i n g s u s t o th e
c o n c l u s i o n o f M r L a h o r e ’s s t a t e m e n t i n s o fa r a s it is r e l e v a n t t o t h e
a l le g a ti o n s y o u h a v e m a d e a g a i n s t h i m . A s w e i n d i c a t e d , C h a ir, t h e r e i s
y e t a n o t h e r s ta t e m e n t, r e s p o n s e to a R u l e 3 3 M r Yu s u f M o h a m m e d . M r
Yu s u f M o h a m m e d h a s b e e n s u b m i t te d o r h is s ta t e m e n t r a t h e r a n d
10

A n n e x u r e s h a v e b e e n s u b m it t e d i n to e v id e n c e a n d m a r k e d B B 4 G . I t is
t h a t li t tl e p l a s t ic c o v e r, C h a ir. I f th e n w e c a n t u r n o u r a t t e n t io n t o M r
Yu s u f M o h a m m e d ’s s ta t e m e n t M r C a ll a r d . H a v e y o u l o c a t e d it ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w i t’s a v e r y b r ie f s ta t e m e n t , t h e m a i n t h in g
t o p la c e o n r e c o r d i s a c c o r d in g to t h a t s t a t e m e n t Mr Yu s u f M o h a m e d
s t a te s t h a t h e i s c u r r e n t ly e m p l o y e d b y Tr a n s n e t a s th e G M O ff ic e o f
t h e G r o u p C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r a n d h e h a s h e l d th is p o s i ti o n fr o m 1 s t
N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 a n d t h a t h e s t a te s a t 1 . 1 a n d h a s b e e n in f u ll e m p l o y o f
Tr a n s n e t fr o m 2 0 0 7 w i th i n th e G r o u p F in a n c e . H e t h e r e a ft e r d e a l s w i t h

20

h is i n v o lv e m e n t i n r e l i g i o u s a c tiv i ti e s s o w e c a n p a s s t h a t, a n d t h e n h e
p r o v i d e s a c e r t a i n c o n t e x t a t p a g e 5 o f h is s t a t e m e n t , p a r a g r a p h 3 ,
w h e r e h e s e ts o u t w h a t h is r o le a s G M O ff ic e o f t h e G C F O e n t a i ls , a n d
I d o n ’ t th i n k th a t y o u w o u l d h a v e a n y is s u e s t h e r e ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: None.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H e d e a ls w i t h th e i s s u e s th a t y o u r a is e i n y o u r

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
s t a te m e n t fr o m p a g e 6 a t p a r a g r a p h 3 . 6 h e s ta t e s t h a t h e h a d n o r o le
o n a n y c a p a c i ty o n th e 1 0 6 4 l o c o m o t iv e p r o j e c t t e a m i n c l u d in g b u t n o t
li m i te d t o th e f o ll o w i n g s tr e a ms , b a s i c a l ly a l l o f t h e m , F i n a n c e ,
P r o c u r e m e n t , C o m m e r c i a l O p e r a ti o n s , B u s in e s s C a s e , Te c h n i c a l a n d
Legal.

N o w l e t ’s l o o k a t w h a t y o u h a d s a i d a b o u t Mr Yu s u f M o h a m a d

a n d t h e n w e w i ll d e a l w i t h h is r e s p o n s e .

Yo u d e a l – y o u m a k e

r e fe r e n c e to M r M o h a m a d f o r t h e fir s t ti m e i n y o u r B B 4 ( A ) y o u r
s t a te m e n t s t a r ti n g a t p a g e 2 6 p a r a g r a p h 11 0 .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ja.

A n d a t 11 0 y o u s p e a k a v e r s i o n o f a

d o c u m e n t , t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e t h a t w a s c i r c u la t e d o n t h e 2 9 t h o f A p r i l
2013.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Ye s .

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t 11 0 y o u s a id t h a t v e r s i o n o f th e b u s i n e s s
c a s e i n d i c a t e d , a n d I q u o te , it ’s in y o u r 11 0 ,
“ A c c o r d i n g ly i t i s r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e 1 0 6 4 l o c o m o tiv e
b u s i n e s s p l a n c a n b e a p p r o v e d a t a c o s t o f 3 8 . 6 b il li o n ,
e x c lu d in g b o r r o w in g c o s ts ” .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
20

Correct.

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O v e r l e a f a t 111 - a n d t h is w a s t h e p o s i ti o n o n
t h e 2 3 r d o f – 2 9 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 1 3 - o v e r l e a f a t 111 y o u s t a t e t h a t o n t h e
3 0 t h o f A p r il 2 0 1 3 , a d a y l a te r a s e c o n d v e r s io n a p p e a r e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W h ic h r e a d ,
“ N o w a c c o r d i n g ly i t is r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h a t t h e 1 0 6 4 l o c a l

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
b u s i n e s s c a s e b e a p p r o v e d w it h e s ti m a t e d t o ta l c o s t o f th e
a c q u is i ti o n o f 3 8 . 6 b i ll io n a s p e r th e c o r p o r a te p la n ( e x c l u d i n g
t h e p o t e n t ia l e ff e c ts fr o m Fo r e x h e d g i n g , F o r e x e s c a l a ti o n a n d
o th e r p r i c e e s c a la t io n s ) ” ,
S o th e c h a n g e r e a l ly b e t w e e n t h e t w o v e r s io n s is w h a t d i d th e
3 8 . 6 e x c lu d e . I n t h e f ir s t v e r s i o n it o n ly e x c lu d e d b o r r o w i n g c o s t s a n d
t h e s e c o n d v e r s i o n , t h e n e x t d a y i t ’s n o w c la i m e d t o e x c lu d e F o r e x
h e d g i n g , F o r e x e s c a la t io n a n d o t h e r p r ic e e s c a l a t io n s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u t h e n c o n c l u d e t h a t t h e m e t a d a ta f o r t h is
fi le in d ic a t e s t h a t it w a s l a s t m o d i fi e d o n th e m a c h in e o f Yu s u f
M o h a m a d o ffic e o f t h e G r o u p C h i e f F in a n c ia l O ff ic e r Tr a n s n e t o n 3 0 t h
A p r il 2 0 1 3 a t 1 0 h 3 0 A M .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : M r M o h a m a d n o w d e a l s w it h th a t a t p a r a g r a p h
4 .2 a t p a g e 7 o f h is s t a t e m e n t a n d h e s ta t e s ,
“ I c a n c o n fi r m t h a t a t n o s t a g e d i d I c a l c u l a t e o r v e r i fy t h e
c a l c u l a ti o n s o f F o r e x h e d g i n g , F o r e x e s c a la t i o n a n d o th e r
p r i c e e s c a la t io n s ” .

20

U n l e s s I mi s r e a d y o u r s ta t e m e n t I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d y o u to
s u g g e s t t h a t M r Yu s u f M o h a m a d u n d e r to o k th o s e c a l c u l a t i o n s ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h a t is c o r r e c t I d i d n o t i m p ly o r

s a y th a t h e u n d e r to o k th o s e c a lc u l a ti o n s a t a l l . I t w a s o n l y th a t h e
c h a n g e d – i t w a s o n h is m a c h i n e t h a t t h e fi n a l s t a t e m e n t w a s c h a n g e d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t h e n i f w e g o o v e r l e a f y o u r s t a te m e n t

Page 71 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
fr o m p a r a g r a p h 5 , a t 5 . 1 i t s a y s ,
“ B a s e d o n a r e v i e w o f th e a b o v e , w h ic h is a li s t o f d o c u m e n ts
h e h a d l is te d t h a t a r e n o t n e c e s s a r ily r e le v a n t t o g o t h r o u g h a t
t h is m o m e n t , h e s a y s , I w o u l d l ik e to d r a w a t t e n t i o n t o th e
f o ll o w i n g - th e a t t e n t i o n o f t h e C o m m i s s io n ” ,
W e c a n s k i p 5 . 1 . 1 w h ic h i s t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t h e s a y s a r e
r e l e v a n t a n d g o to 5 .1 . 2 w h e r e h e n o w d e a ls w i t h h is o w n c o n d u c t
w h ic h i s w h a t – a f t e r y o u s a i d t h a t t h e c h a n g e s w e r e m a d e o n h is
m a c h in e a n d h e s a y s ,
“ T h e c h a n g e w a s o n i n s tr u c ti o n o f Mr S i n g h t o a l i g n t h e

10

b u s i n e s s c a s e t o t h e a p p r o v a l m e m o r a n d u m a n d s u b m is s i o n s
o f t h e C o m m i t t e e s l is t e d a b o v e a n d r e p r e s e n t e d a m e r e
tr a n s fe r o f t h e i n f o r m a t io n th a t w a s a l r e a d y a p p r o v e d .

In

m a k i n g t h e e d i ts t h a t is a f u r t h e r s u b - s u b , in m a k in g t h e e d it s
o f Mr S i n g h I w o u l d h a v e a c t e d u p o n h is i n s tr u c ti o n s a n d
tr u s t e d h is k n o w l e d g e a s h e w a s in t i m a t e ly i n v o lv e d i n t h e
business case”.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

M y r e a d i n g o f t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t , th a t is t h e

s u m t o t a l o f h is r e s p o n s e t o w h a t y o u s a y a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h s 11 0 a n d
111 .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Correct.

W h a t w o u ld y o u c o m m e n t t o M r M o h a m a d ’s

e x p l a n a t io n ?
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : P e r fe c t ly c o r r e c t, I w o u ld a d d t h e

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
f o ll o w i n g p o in t a n d I w o u l d g o t o my s ta t e m e n t w h e r e o n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4
o f m y s ta t e m e n t, th a t is a t p a g e 2 5 o f m y s t a te m e n t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 a n d
I’ ll ju s t t a k e t h e h e a d i n g , a ls o th e 1 8 t h A p r il ( i n d i s t i n c t) e m a i ls th e S i n g h
– e m a ils S i n g h t h e b u s in e s s c a s e a n d h e m a k e s c o m m e n t s t h e r e a b o u t
t h e f o r e i g n – t h e e t h i c s c u r v e , a d j u s te d fl e e t e s t i m a te s , s a v i n g s , i t e m
f o u r th e r e , t h e u p d a t e d t o ta l c o s t o f o w n e r s h i p a s a r e s u l t o f t h e F o r e x
e x c h a n g e a n d fi v e , n e w f u n d i n g a n d F o r e x h e d g i n g s e c ti o n r e c e iv e d
fr o m D a n i e t h is e v e n i n g .

I then go to – refer to paragraph 105, Mr

S i n g h w a s th e a c ti n g C h a ir o f t h e 1 0 6 4 l o c o m o t iv e s s t e e r i n g c o m m i t te e
10

m e e ti n g h e l d o n t h e m o r n in g o f t h e 1 8 t h o f A p r il .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h e d r a f t m i n u te s in c l u d e t h a t t h e
a c ti n g

C h a ir m a n

h i g h li g h te d

i n te r

alia

and

those

d r a f t m i n u te s ,

p a r t ic u l a r ly 1 0 5 . 3 s ig n i f ic a n t a m e n d m e n t , th e F o r e x r a te s i n c lu d e d
e tc e t e r a .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s b u t t h a t i s n o w Mr S i n g h ’s r o l e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

Th a t i s in th e m in u t e s o f t h e

lo c o m o t iv e s t e e r i n g c o m m i t t e e m e e t i n g o n t h e m o r n i n g o f th e 1 8 t h p r i o r
t o C a p e c w h ic h t o o k p l a c e o n t h e s a m e d a y – la t e r o n th e s a m e d a y o n
20

the 18th.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s w e d o n ’ t h a v e a n i s s u e w i t h th a t y e s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h e o n ly p o i n t I w i s h – t h e p o in t I

w i s h t o m a k e o u t o f t h a t , is th a t , th e r e s o l u ti o n o f th a t s t e e r i n g – o f t h a t
lo c o m o t iv e s te e r in g c o m m i t t e e s ta t e s , a n d I’ m r e a d y o n 1 0 6 ,
“ T h e e s t i m a te d to t a l c o s ts a s p e r t h e c o r p o r a t e p l a n e x c l u d in g

Page 73 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
t h e p o t e n ti a l e ff e c ts o f Fo r e x h e d g i n g , F o r e x e s c a la t io n , p r i c e
e s c a l a t io n , b o r r o w i n g c o s ts ” ,
A n d I s t a t e t h e r e w a s a n a n o m a ly i n th o s e m i n u te s w h i c h w a s
u n r e s o lv e d .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : Ye s M r C a l la r d b u t l e t ’s c o n f in e o u r s e lv e s t o
w h a t y o u s a id a b o u t M r M o h a m a d , y o u s a i d t h e c h a n g e s t o w h a t w a s
in c l u d e d o r e x c l u d e d fr o m t h e 3 8 . 6 b il li o n w a s m a d e o n h is m a c h in e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a t ’s a ll y o u s a y a b o u t M r M o h a m a d .
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: So I said.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Mr Mohamad comes back to you and says,

fir s tly, t h a t th e c h a n g e w a s o n t h e i n s tr u c t io n o f M r S i n g h a n d s e c o n d l y
t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e a c te d u p o n M r S i n g h ’s i n s tr u c ti o n , th a t ’s t h e s u m
t o t a l o f w h a t ( i n d is t in c t) s a y s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

S u m t o t a l s o i n th a t h e c o n f ir m s

that he made the change.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : H e c o n fir m s t h e c h a n g e w a s m a d e ,
h e c o n f ir m e d h e m a d e t h e c h a n g e . H e in f o r m s u s a s t o w h y t h e c h a n g e
20

w a s m a d e , th a t i t w a s o n i n s tr u c t i o n fr o m M r S in g h b u t th e a n o m a ly
it s e l f w o u ld I h ig h li g h t w h ic h p r o p a g a t e s t h r o u g h fr o m t h e m o r n i n g o f
t h e 1 8 t h o f A p r il , a s t o w h y F o r e x e s c a l a ti o n – w h y F o r e x h e d g i n g a n d
e s c a l a t io n w e r e e x c lu d e d , t h a t r e m a in s …( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h e a n o m a l y is a n i s s u e t o b e a n s w e r e d
by Mr Singh not by Mr Mohamad?

Page 74 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Mr M o h a m a d h a s n o w h i g h li g h te d

a n d a d d r e s s e d t h is to M r S i n g h a s h a v i n g r e c e i v e d t h a t in s t r u c t i o n a n d
t h a t a n o m a ly p r o p a g a t e s th r o u g h a n d i t r e m a in s u n a n s w e r e d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h e n t h a t’s f o r M r S i n g h to d e a l w i th ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Fo r M r S i n g h to d e a l w i th .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o e ff e c t iv e l y w h a t Mr M o h a m a d d o e s in h is

s t a te m e n t , h e d o e s n o t d i s a g r e e w i th y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t t h e s e
c h a n g e s w e r e m a d e o n h is m a c h i n e ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: No he does not disagree.
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I h a v e r e a d th e r e s t o f th e s t a t e m e n t a n d y o u
h a v e a l s o b e e n p r o v id e d w it h s a m e , b e y o n d w h a t w e h a v e r e a d , M r
M o h a m a d d o e s n o t d e a l w i th th e f a c t t h a t y o u t e s ti f ie d t h a t t h e c h a n g e s
w e r e m a d e o n h i s s y s te m , h e s i m p ly g iv e s a n e x p l a n a t i o n o f h o w th a t
c a m e a b o u t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h a t is w h a t h e d o e s , a n

e x p l a n a t io n o f h o w i t c a m e a b o u t b u t h e d o e s n o t r e s o l v e t h e a n o m a ly
a t a ll , a n d r e f e r s i t t o M r S i n g h .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t h a t b r in g s u s t o t h e c o n c l u s io n

t e c h n ic a l ly th e n o f Mr M o h a m a d ’s s t a t e m e n t a n d th e r e is n o t h i n g e ls e
20

M r M o h a m a d s a y s a b o u t t h e t e s ti m o n y y o u ’v e p r o v id e d t o t h e C h a ir.
U n l e s s C h a ir t h e r e a r e a n y o t h e r q u e s ti o n s , th o s e a r e th e t w o
s t a te m e n ts w e w a n te d to p u t t o Mr C a l la r d ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u .

M r C a l la r d th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r

h a v i n g c o m e b a c k to d e a l w it h th e s e i s s u e s o r c o m m e n ts r a is e d b y t h e
t w o p e r s o n s , i f a n e e d a r is e s f o r u s to a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k w e w i ll a s k

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
a g a in b u t o n c e a g a i n t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m in g t o g iv e e v id e n c e .
U n l e s s th e r e is s o m e t h i n g y o u ’ v e t h o u g h t o f in t h e m e a n t i m e , Mr
C a ll a r d y o u a r e e x c u s e d .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: Thank you.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir, t h a t c o n c lu d e s t h e n t h e

e v i d e n c e o f Mr C a ll a r d w h ic h w e h a d k e p t o p e n w h e n h e w a s l a s t h e r e .
T h a t b e in g th e l a s t o f t h e r e s p o n s e s t o h is s ta t e m e n t , th a t c o n c l u d e s
h is e v i d e n c e .

I ’ m a d v is e d th e n e x t w i t n e s s is r e a d y b u t w e m a y

r e q u ir e , p e r h a p s fi v e m i n u te s f o r th e c h a n g i n g o f th e g u a r d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t’s f in e .

W e ’l l a d j o u r n fo r – u n t il h a l f p a s t

t w e lv e , w e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : G o o d a f t e r n o o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d a f t e r n o o n Ms R a n g a te , th a n k y o u .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e r e a d y ?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s I a m r e a d y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : C h a ir w e h a v e c a l le d M a jo r N ts h i s i t o d a y,
it is a s e c o n d c o m e b a c k , w e h a v e le d h is e v i d e n c e o n th e 3 r d o f J u l y s o
t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n is s u e s t h a t n e c e s s i t a t e d f o r h i m t o c o m e b a c k t o d a y
a n d I w o u l d r e c o m m e n d t h a t h e b e s w o r n in g iv e n th e ti m e la p s e s in c e
h is e v i d e n c e t h a t h e h a s g i v e n , i f t h a t is i n o r d e r I w i ll r e q u e s t t h a t h e
b e s w o r n in , a n d h e h a s r e q u e s t e d a g a in t h e s e r v ic e s o f a n in t e r p r e t e r,

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
a n d M r M n e s e is h e r e to a s s is t a s a n in t e r p r e t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o t h a t ’s f in e .

Let me swear in Mr Mnese, the

in t e r p r e t e r fi r s t , a n d t h e n w e c a n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . M r M n e s e l e t ’s d o
t h is a g a i n , h o p e f u l ly c e r ta i n p a p e r w o r k w il l b e s o r t e d o u t a n d w e d o n ’ t
h a v e t o d o i t e a c h t i m e . O k a y.
MR

S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N E

MNESE

(INTERPRETER):

Thank

you

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n t o t a k i n g th e p r e s c r ib e d

oath?
10

M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N E M N E S E ( IN T E R P R E T E R ) : N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Do

you

consider

DUMISANE

MNESE

the

o a th

b in d in g

on

your

conscience?
MR

S TA N L E Y

(INTERPRETER):

Indeed

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, I a m g o i n g to r e a d t h e o a t h a n d t h e n y o u a r e

g o i n g t o s a y a f t e r m e , a n d i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y i t w a s E n g l is h t o is i X h o s a
o r w a s i t t o i s i Z u l u l a s t ti m e ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N E M N E S E ( IN T E R P R E T E R ) : E n g li s h t o Z u lu .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E n g li s h t o Zu l u .
20

M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N E M N E S E ( IN T E R P R E T E R ) : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i t , o k a y, n o t h a t’s f i n e . I , a n d th e n g i v e y o u r
f u ll n a m e s , d o h e r e b y s w e a r t h a t I w ill i n m y c a p a c i t y a s a n in t e r p r e t e r
f a i t h f u lly a n d c o r r e c t ly a n d to th e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e a n d a b i li t y
in t e r p r e t in th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s fr o m i s i Z u l u to E n g l is h a n d fr o m E n g lis h
t o is i Zu l u , b o t h l a n g u a g e s i n w h i c h I a m p r o fic ie n t .

Page 77 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
MR

S TA N L E Y

DUMISANI

MNESE

(INTERPRETER):

I,

Stanley

D u m i s a n i M n e s e , d o h e r e b y s w e a r t h a t I w il l i n m y c a p a c it y a s a n
in t e r p r e t e r f a i t h f u lly a n d c o r r e c t ly a n d t o t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e a n d
a b il i ty i n te r p r e t i n th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s fr o m is i Zu lu t o E n g li s h a n d fr o m
E n g l is h t o i s i Z u l u , b o t h l a n g u a g e s in w h ic h I a m p r o fi c i e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d t h e n a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I M N E S E ( I N T E R P R E T E R ) : S o h e l p m e G o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u , y o u a r e d u ly s w o r n i n .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N E M N E S E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b e fo r e M a j o r N ts h is i is s w o r n in o r a n

a ffir m a t i o n is a d m i n i s t e r e d I ju s t w a n t t o s a y t o M a j o r N t s h is i t h a t I
a s k e d t h a t h e b e r e c a l le d a n d y o u c a n in t e r p r e t M r In t e r p r e te r.
MAJOR

TH A B O

NTSHISI

[ t hr o u g h

interpreter]:

I

u n d e r s ta n d

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t w a s b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e c e r ta i n a s p e c ts o f y o u r

e v i d e n c e o n w h ic h I w o u ld li k e c l a r i f ic a t i o n .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o w e w il l d e a l w i th t h o s e a n d w e w il l tr y n o t t o g o

o v e r e v e r y th in g , b u t b e c a u s e y o u r e v i d e n c e c o v e r e d a v e r y n a r r o w a r e a
it m a y b e t h a t w e e n d u p l o o k in g a t a s u b s t a n t i a l p o r ti o n o f y o u r
evidence.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I u n d e r s t a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . N o w t h e o a th , a ffir m a t i o n c a n
b e a d m in is t e r e d .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Ikamalane Thabo

N ts h is i .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c t i o n s t o m a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : N o o b j e c t io n .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o le m n ly a ffi r m th a t a l l t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u w i ll
g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o
p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u l y a ffir m .
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I tr u ly a ffi r m .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : M a jo r N ts h is i t h is C o m m i s s io n is i n d e b t e d
t o y o u a g r e e in g to c o m e b a c k a t s u c h a s h o r t n o ti c e .

C h a ir f o r t h e

p u r p o s e o f t h is e v id e n c e t h a t I ’ m g o i n g t o le a d , w e a r e g o i n g t o b e
m a k i n g r e f e r e n c e to t h e f o l lo w i n g Ex h i b it s , i t ’s F F1 w h ic h i s t h e J C P S
report.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s – s o m e b o d y m u s t a s s is t to m a k e s u r e h e h a s g o t
everything.
20

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

We are going to be

m a k i n g r e f e r e n c e t o F F 4 w h ic h i s S A N D F B o a r d o f i n q u ir y r e p o r t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y h a n g o n , l e t t h e m f i n d i t f ir s t .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : F F 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

And we have FF6 that contains three

Page 79 of 117

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
s t a te m e n ts a n d w e h a v e F F 1 3 , ( b ) a n d ( c ) t h e y a r e i n o n e s m a ll f o l d e r.
C h a ir F F 1 3 ( b ) a n d ( c ) t h e s e a r e t h e tr a n s c r i p ts o f th e r e c o r d i n g s t h a t
h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n e n t e r e d i n t o th e r e c o r d , t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n
e n t e r e d a n d b e e n a l lo c a t e d t h e E x h i b it n u m b e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o n e s e c o n d .
ADV

BAITSENG

R A N G ATA :

I

must

a ls o

i d e n t i fy

C h a ir,

that

p r e v i o u s ly … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON: One second – yes?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :
10

C h a ir p r e v io u s ly th e tr a n s c r i p ts w e r e

id e n t i fi e d a s – th e r e c o r d i n g i t s e l f w a s i d e n ti f ie d a s 1 3 ( a ) a n d t h e
recording 6…(intervention).
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e c o r d in g h a s n ’ t b e e n a c c e p te d to t h e r e c o r d y e t
b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t h a n d e d u p b u t t h e tr a n s c r i p ts w e r e .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

I th in k le t m e c o r r e c t m y s e l f , w e h a v e 1 3

( b ) – F F 1 3 ( b ) a s t h e r e c o r d in g 6 a n d F F1 3 ( c ) a s r e c o r d i n g 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :
20

Ye s C h a ir.

W e c a n e n te r t h a t i n to t h e

r e c o r d i f th a t ’s n o t a lr e a d y e n te r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u – n o t h a t w a s a lr e a d y e n t e r e d I t h in k .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Th e C h a ir w i ll r e c a ll th a t p r e v io u s ly t h e r e

w a s a d i s c u s s io n t h a t n e c e s s i t a te d f o r u s t o c o m e h e r e t o d a y.

Page 80 of 117

Major

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
N ts h is i y o u w i ll – I ’ m g o i n g to t r y t o a v o i d t o r e p e a t w h a t h a s b e e n
d e a lt w i t h p r e v io u s ly b e c a u s e y o u r e v id e n c e , I’ m g o i n g t o s ta r t w i t h
r e fe r e n c e t o F F4 . C h a ir I’ m g o i n g t o s tr a i g h t to p a g e 3 2 5 o f F F 4 w h i c h
is t h e tr a n s c r i p ts o f t h e B o a r d o f i n q u i r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I’ m s o r r y w h a t p a g e ?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : P a g e 3 2 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

325?

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s C h a ir o f F F 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

M a j o r N ts h i s i , y o u ’ ll r e c a l l p r e v i o u s ly m y

c o l l e a g u e h a s ta k e n th r o u g h t h i s – y o u r s e l f th r o u g h t h is tr a n s c r i p t .
INTERPRETER: What pages?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

P a g e 3 2 5 t o b e m o r e s p e c if ic w e w i ll s ta r t

a t li n e 8 o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t . D o y o u n e e d a s s is t a n c e ?
INTERPRETER: Line?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

L in e 8 , I’ m g o in g to g o s tr a ig h t t o th e

p o i n t , y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d to c o m m e n t o n t h is s e n t e n c e , it w a s a s k e d
w h e t h e r y o u c o n fir m o r y o u a c c e p t w h a t w a s s t a te d i n th e tr a n s c r ip t , i t
s t a te d ,
20

“ S o I s p o k e to M r K o l o a n e , t h a t is y o u r s e l f M a j o r N t s h is i w h e r e
y o u w e r e r e s p o n d i n g to Br i g a d i e r M is i , y o u s t a te d , s o I s p o k e
t o Mr K o l o a n e , h e i n d i c a t e d t o m e t h a t t h e s e n s i ti v i ty o f th e
fl ig h t i s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e o n t h e n o te v e r b a l e b e c a u s e i t i s a
h i g h s e c u r i ty r is k ” .
Ye s b e f o r e y o u a n s w e r to t h a t I’ m g o i n g t o a ls o r e fe r y o u t o t h e n e x t

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
p a r a g r a p h w h ic h a p p e a r s o n l i n e 1 2 , y o u s t a t e d t h e r e ,
“ W e n e e d to … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Line 12?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

L i n e 1 2 o n t h e s a m e p a g e C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : “ W e n e e d t o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 , l in e 1 2 ?

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

L i n e 1 2 s o r r y I a p o l o g is e fo r t h a t ,

“ W e n e e d to g o a h e a d w i th t h a t c l e a r a n c e , a l th o u g h I w a s n o t
h a p p y w it h t h a t r e s p o n s e t h a t is w h y I e v e n , th e s e c o n d ti m e I

10

s p o k e t o L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n , s h e a ls o c o n fi r m e d th a t
I m u s t g o a h e a d b e c a u s e t h e P r e s id e n t a u t h o r is e d t h a t f li g h t ” .
I f I r e c a ll … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

One second – I think – I’m not sure if the

in t e r p r e t a ti o n h a s b e e n fi n a li s e d , i t ’s P r e s i d e n t a u t h o r is e d t h e fli g h t .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a n k y o u fo r t h a t C h a ir.

A ll t h i s t h a t

w a s r e a d t o y o u o n t h a t d a te w h e n y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e w a s r e s p o n d e d
with,
“That was not my words”.
20

Ye s , I w a n t y o u – y o u ’v e r e fl e c t e d … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s c o n f ir m t h a t fir s t . D o y o u r e m e m b e r t h is p a r t o f
t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f th e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y b e i n g r e a d to y o u o r y o u b e in g
r e fe r r e d t o i t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s I r e c a ll i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t y o u r a n s w e r w a s to – y o u r

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
r e p ly w a s to t h e q u e s ti o n a b o u t th is p a r t o f th e tr a n s c r ip t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ] : E v e n th o u g h i t’s q u i te
lo n g C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y o r t h e e x a c t w o r d s t h a t I
said.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I’ m s o r r y m a y b e w e m i g h t b e s p e a k i n g a t c r o s s
purposes.

I ’ m n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e ti m e w h e n y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e a t

t h e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y, I ’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t l a s t w e e k w h e n y o u w e r e g iv in g
evidence.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s C h a ir.
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s I r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e q u e s ti o n i s w h e th e r y o u d o r e m e m b e r w h a t

y o u r r e p ly w a s w h e n th e q u e s t io n w a s p u t t o y o u t h a t t h is is w h a t y o u
s a i d a t t h e B o a r d o f i n q u i r y a c c o r d i n g t o th is t r a n s c r i p t .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s I r e m e m b e r w h a t
my answer was.
CHAIRPERSON: What was your answer?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] : My a n s w e r w a s , n o , I
n e v e r s a i d t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u , d o y o u w a n t t o t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e ?
20

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, th a n k y o u f o r th a t C h a ir.

N o w t h a t y o u ’v e r e f le c te d o n w h a t w a s s a i d o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r d a y is
t h e r e s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u w a n t to c o m m e n t o n b a s e d o n w h a t I h a v e j u s t
r e a d f o r y o u a n d w h a t th e C h a ir h a s ju s t c l a r i fi e d , g i v e n th e a n s w e r
t h a t y o u p r e v i o u s ly g a v e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Page 83 of 117

A l l I c a n s a y is t h a t

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
w h a t is w r i tt e n h e r e n o w, I c a n a g r e e w i t h i t b e c a u s e I n o w c a n
r e m e m b e r w h a t I s a i d a t th e B o a r d o f i n q u i r ie s .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u f o r th a t , s o I … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

So I take it that what you had said means that you

a g r e e th a t y o u d i d s a y a t t h e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t y o u s a y y o u a d m it y o u d id s a y is t h a t y o u s p o k e
– y o u d i d s a y y o u s p o k e t o M r K o l o a n e , h e i n d ic a te d t o y o u t h a t t h e
s e n s i t iv it y o f t h e f li g h t i s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e o n th e n o te v e r b a le
10

b e c a u s e i t is h i g h s e c u r i ty r i s k , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t is s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a k e i t a ls o th a t y o u a g r e e t h a t y o u a ls o s a i d th a t w e
n e e d t o g o a h e a d w i t h t h a t c l e a r a n c e , t h is is n o w w h e n y o u w e r e
s p e a k i n g a t t h e B o a r d o f i n q u i r y t e l li n g t h e m a b o u t y o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n
w i t h M r K o lo a n e , y o u s a i d , w e n e e d t o g o a h e a d w i th t h a t c l e a r a n c e
a l t h o u g h I w a s n o t h a p p y w i t h t h a t r e s p o n s e t h a t is w h y I e v e n , t h e
s e c o n d t i m e I s p o k e to L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n .
MAJOR

THABO

NTSHISI

[through

i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Ye s

indeed

C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th a t y o u t h e n a l s o to l d t h e B o a r d t h a t C o l o n e l

A n d e r s o n a ls o c o n f ir m e d t h a t y o u m u s t g o a h e a d b e c a u s e t h e P r e s i d e n t
a u t h o r i s e d th a t fl ig h t .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a n k y o u , y o u w a n t to p r o c e e d ?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Ye s C h a ir, t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r t h a t .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M a jo r N ts h i s i I ju s t w a n t to t a k e y o u a li t t le b i t b a c k o n t h e 8 t h o f J u ly
2 0 1 9 A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e w a s in a t t e n d a n c e , h e w a s g iv i n g e v id e n c e
t o t h is C o m m i s s i o n .

I t a p p e a r e d d u r i n g t h e d a y t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n

w a s p r o v i d e d w i th a r e c o r d in g o f t h e te le p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n –
n u m e r o u s t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s t h a t t o o k p la c e b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f
a n d A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d – I’ m g o i n g t o
id e n t i fy s o m e t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t f o r t h is C o m m i s s io n – b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f
a n d L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s , I r e c a ll th a t .
10

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Ye s a n d t h e – w i t h t h e l e a v e o f t h e C h a ir,

t h e r e c o r d i n g – t h e s a i d r e c o r d i n g w a s p l a y e d i n to t h e r e c o r d o n t h e 9 t h
o f J u ly a n d y o u w e r e i n a t t e n d a n c e o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a t e .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s I w a s p r e s e n t .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

S o I w a n t u s t o d e a l w i th t w o t h i n g s c a n I

c o n fir m – y o u c o n fir m y o u r a t t e n d a n c e y o u w e r e i n w h e n t h e r e c o r d in g
w a s p la y e d a n d y o u h a v e l is t e n e d t o i t ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s I a g r e e I w a s

present.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : C a n I a s k i f y o u c o n fi r m t h e c o n t e n t a n d
20

t h e a c c u r a c y o f th e r e c o r d i n g t h a t w a s p l a y e d i n t h is s i t t in g ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s I a g r e e t o t h a t.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Th a n k y o u , C h a ir t h e r e c o r d in g s t h a t I’ m

t a lk in g a b o u t – th a t I’ m r e f e r r in g to t h e y h a v e b e e n e n t e r e d i n t o r e c o r d ,
t h a t i s F F1 3 ( b ) a n d 1 3 ( c ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u ’r e r e fe r r i n g t o th o s e t h a t i n v o lv e d h i m ?

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

I n t h e f ir s t r e c o r d i n g t h a t w e lis t e n e d to

t h a t a p p e a r s u n d e r F F1 3 ( b ) , i t ’s a r e c o r d i n g … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e fo r e t h a t l e t ’s g o b a c k t o t h e B o a r d o f

in q u ir y tr a n s c r i p t.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o w a c c e p te d t h a t t h e p a r t o f t h e tr a n s c r i p t
o f t h e p r o c e e d in g s o f t h e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y t o w h ic h y o u w e r e r e f e r r e d a
10

f e w m in u t e s a g o is c o r r e c t a n d i t r e fl e c ts w h a t y o u s a i d a t t h e B o a r d o f
in q u ir y, y o u r e m e m b e r th a t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c t ly t h a t y o u s a i d y o u n o w
r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u d id s a y t h i s ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t r e m in d e d y o u t h a t t h is is w h a t y o u h a d s a id a t
t h e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] : W h a t m a d e m e r e c a ll
Yo u r W o r s h i p i s t h a t th e r e w a s s o m e r e c o r d i n g th a t w a s p l a y e d b e f o r e
20

t h e C o m m is s i o n , C h a ir p e r s o n , w h ic h th e n r e m in d e d m e w h a t h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c tl y, w h e n y o u g a v e e v id e n c e la s t
week, you did not say that you could not remember what you had said
a t t h e B o a r d o f in q u ir y o r t h a t y o u w e r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r y o u h a d s a i d
t h e t h i n g s t h a t a r e s a id h e r e t h a t w e r e a t tr i b u te d t o y o u b u t y o u w e r e
q u i te c a t e g o r ic a l t h a t y o u h a d n o t s a id t h e s e w o r d s , is m y r e c o l le c t i o n

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
correct?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s I a g r e e I d i d s a y
t h a t t h o s e a r e n o t th e w o r d s t h a t I s a id b u t a f te r t h e r e c o r d in g s w e r e
p l a y e d b e fo r e t h e C o m m is s i o n t h a t ’s w h e n I t h e n r e a l is e d t h a t , i n d e e d ,
t h is is w h a t I s a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e t a l k a b o u t s o m e t h i n g e l s e th a t I p ic k e d u p i n
y o u r e v i d e n c e la s t ti m e . T h a t is th a t y o u w e r e q u i t e c l e a r t h a t y o u d i d
n o t a c t a s y o u d i d b e c a u s e o f a n y p r e s s u r e b y a n y b o d y o n y o u b u t th a t
y o u o n ly a c te d a s y o u d i d i n r e l a ti o n t o th e r e q u e s t f o r c l e a r a n c e
10

b e c a u s e o f th e le t t e r th a t h a d c o m e f r o m A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e ’s PA , is
m y r e c o ll e c t io n c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s t h a t i s s o

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t s t il l t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u t a k e a t t h is s t a g e ,

t h a t y o u d id n o t a c t b e c a u s e o f a n y p r e s s u r e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t is tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koloane gave evidence here and said that he put
pressure

on

personnel

of

the

Defence

Department

and

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n e o f t h o s e h e w a s
20

t a lk in g a b o u t , is t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s w e l l?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t is tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON: But you say you did not act out of any pressure from
him?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I s a y t h a t b e c a u s e Mr
K o lo a n e h i ms e lf s a i d t h a t h e i s th e o n e th a t p u t p r e s s u r e to t h e

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
personnel of the Department.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u m a in t a i n th a t y o u d i d n o t a c t o u t o f a n y
pressure from him?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Ye s th a t is tr u e

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n in t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f t h e b o a r d o f i n q u i r y o n

t h e p a g e t o w h i c h w e r e f e r r e d e a r li e r o n p a g e 2 5 w h e n y o u s a i d
a l t h o u g h I w a s n o t h a p p y w it h t h a t r e s p o n s e t h a t i s w h y I e v e n t h e
s e c o n d t i m e I t h i n k t h a t m u s t b e y o u p h o n e d a n d y o u s p o k e t o C o lo n e l
10

A n d e r s o n . W h a t u n h a p p i n e s s w e r e y o u t a l k in g a b o u t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

The reason for that

Yo u r W o r s h i p w a s t h e r e a s o n o f t h e r e q u e s t fo r th e p l a n e t h a t w a s
s u p p o s e d to la n d a t Wa t e r k lo o f .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s i t a b o u t th e r e a s o n f o r t h e r e q u e s t t h a t

made you unhappy?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ] : T h e r e a s o n b e i n g t h a t
t h e r e q u e s t a n d t h e p a r t ic u l a r s w e r e n o t s a tis fy i n g – w e r e n o t s a tis f y i n g
a b o u t t h e p l a n e th a t w a s c o m in g to l a n d a t W a t e r k lo o f a n d i t n e v e r
e v e n s t a te d w h o a r e t h e p e o p le a n d th e r e a s o n fo r i t to c o m e a n d l a n d
20

a t W a te r k l o o f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f y o u w e r e n o t h a p p y w it h t h e r e q u e s t b e c a u s e
o f i n a d e q u a t e i n f o r m a ti o n w h a t w e r e y o u s u p p o s e d to d o w i t h t h e
r e q u e s t i n t e r m s o f y o u r f u n c ti o n s ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t i s w h y a t f ir s t I
a s k e d M r K o l o a n e to g iv e m e s o m e th in g w h i c h is w r i t te n d o w n

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[i n d is t in c t] o r a d o c u m e n t w h ic h s t a t e s th a t h e is a g r e e i n g to t h e
le n d i n g o f th e p l a n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h a t b e f o r e y o u r e c e iv e d th e e m a i l th a t c a m e

fr o m M r K o l o a n e ’s PA ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e i t w a s
b e f o r e I r e c e iv e d t h e e m a il .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d i t th e n b e c o r r e c t t o ta k e t h a t e m a i l fr o m M r

K o lo a n e ’s PA a s a d ir e c t r e s p o n s e t o y o u r r e q u e s t t o h i m ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t is tr u e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u – y o u d o r e m e m b e r th e c o n te n ts o f t h a t e m a il
do you not?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] : Ye s I d o e v e n t h o u g h
I c a n n o t b e a b le t o e x a c t ly p u t t h e w o r d i n g s o f t h a t e m a il a s t h e y a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d id – w h a t d i d t h e …
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : C h a ir t h e e m a i l is o n p a g e 1 9 9 o f 5 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o i t i s f in e fo r n o w m a y b e la t e r.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t to y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n w a s t h e g i s t o f th a t e m a i l

t o y o u fr o m M r K o l o a n e th r o u g h h i s PA ?
20

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] : T h e w o r d s t h a t w e r e
s a y in g it is a ll o w e d t h a t t h e a ir p la n e c a n la n d a t t h e W a t e r k lo o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t y o u h a d r e q u e s t e d M r K o l o a n e t o p u t in
w r i t in g t o y o u ? N o , n o j u s t – le t u s d o i t a g a in M r I n te r p r e t e r. I s w h a t
y o u f o u n d i n t h e e m a i l w h a t y o u h a d r e q u e s t e d Mr K o l o a n e to s e n d to
y o u i n w r i ti n g ?

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M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e h e r e w h e n h e g a v e e v i d e n t l a s t w e e k , is i t
not? I am sorry you were here.
MAJOR

THABO

NTSHISI

[through

i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Ye s

I

was

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t h e s a i d a b o u t t h a t le t t e r, th a t

email?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I r e c a l l w h a t h e s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is y o u r r e c o l le c ti o n o f w h a t h e s a id ?
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] : H e s a i d t h a t t h e e m a il
w a s a c t u a ll y m a d e o r w r i tt e n b y h is s e c r e ta r y.

And that as it was

w r i t t e n b y h is s e c r e t a r y h e t h i n k s t h a t s h e w r o t e i t t h e w a y s h e s a i d i t
must be.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll h e – M r K o l o a n e s a i d t h a t th e e m a i l t h a t w a s

s e n t t o y o u b y h i s PA d i d n o t r e f l e c t w h a t h a d a s k e d h is PA t o w r i t e .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t y o u r r e c o ll e c t io n t o o t h a t t h a t is w h a t M r K o l o a n e
said?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :
20

T h a t is w h a t Mr

K o lo a n e s a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e a ls o s a i d t h a t h e d i d n o t a s k h i s PA t o w r i te t h a t
h e h a d a p p r o v e d th e r e q u e s t .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e s a id t h a t e i t h e r h is s e c r e t a r y m i s u n d e r s t o o d

w h a t h e w a s s a y in g – w h a t h e h a d s a i d t o h e r o r m a y b e h e fa il e d t o

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
a r ti c u la t e a c c u r a te ly w h a t h e w a n t e d h is PA t o s a y i n t h e le t t e r, is t h a t
y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n a l s o o f w h a t M r K o l o a n e s a i d [i n d i s t i n c t ].
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]:

Ye s t h a t i s w h a t h e

said.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d o y o u s a y t o th is p a r t o f h is e v i d e n c e ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : To m e C h a ir p e r s o n i t
is d i ffi c u l t f o r m e t o c a n s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t it .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e l e t m e m a k e i t c l e a r.

My understanding

o f y o u r e v i d e n c e is th a t y o u h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h M r K o l o a n e a n d i n
10

t h e c o u r s e o f th a t c o n v e r s a ti o n y o u a s k e d h i m t o s e n d y o u s o m e th i n g in
w r i t in g th a t w o u l d s a y th a t th e y w e r e a p p r o v i n g t h e la n d i n g o f th e
a ir c r a f t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u h a v e a n y d o u b t a t a ll i n y o u r m i n d t h a t th a t is
w h a t th e t w o o f y o u d is c u s s e d in t e r m s o f s o m e t h i n g i n w r i ti n g ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : C a n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
r e p e a t th a t?
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you have any doubt in your mind – do you have

a n y d o u b t a t a ll i n y o u r m i n d th a t t h a t is w h a t y o u s a i d to M r K o l o a n e i n
20

t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n n a m e ly t h a t y o u w a n t e d s o m e th i n g i n
w r i t in g t h a t w o u l d s h o w t h a t t h e y h a d a p p r o v e d th e l a n d i n g o f th e
fl ig h t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

I do not have any

d o u b t t h is i s e x a c t ly w h a t w e s p o k e a b o u t w i t h Mr K o lo a n e a n d t h a t is
what I asked him to do.

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CHAIRPERSON:

H e s a id in h i s e v id e n c e b e fo r e m e th a t h e d i d n o t

h a v e a n y p o w e r o r D I R C O h a d n o p o w e r t o a p p r o v e t h e l a n d i n g o f th e
fl ig h t o f a n y a ir c r a f t a t W a t e r k l o o f .
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s I r e c a ll t h a t h e

said that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t ? W a s h e – i s t h a t tr u e t h a t
he did not have that power or DIRCO did not have that power?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : To m e t h a t is n o t t h e
tr u th .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] : I s a y t h a t b e c a u s e b y
t h e ti m e I w a s s p e a k i n g t o M r M a t ji l a h e t h e n r e f e r r e d m e t o Mr
K o lo a n e . A n d I s a y t h a t b e c a u s e Mr K o lo a n e i s t h e h i g h e s t o ffi c i a l a t
D IR C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l h i g h e s t o ffic i a l i n a g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t
w o u ld b e t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s n o t D ir e c to r G e n e r a l w a s h e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

20

According to my

k n o w l e d g e h e w a s Th e C h i e f S t a t e Pr o to c o l,
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o d id t h a t p o s i ti o n g iv e h i m p o w e r t o a p p r o v e

t h e la n d i n g o f a n a ir c r a f t a t W a te r k l o o f – Wa t e r k l o o f ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

According to my

knowledge that was the case he was supposed to approve.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th e p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t t h e a p p r o v a l f o r t h e l a n d in g

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o f a n y a i r c r a ft a t Wa t e r k l o o f w a s s o m e t h i n g th a t c o u ld o n ly b e g r a n t e d
b y th e r e l e v a n t o ff ic i a l s i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

No that is not so.

T h e o n ly p e o p le t h a t h a d th o s e p o w e r s a r e th e p e o p l e fr o m D I R C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d i t h a p p e n e d b e fo r e t h a t D I R C O p r o v id e d a p p r o v a l
f o r t h e l a n d in g o f a n y a ir c r a f t a t W a te r k l o o f ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ] : A ll t h e f li g h ts th a t a r e
e n t e r in g th e b o r d e r s o f S o u t h A fr i c a a r e a p p r o v e d b y D IR C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m n o w t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e a c tu a l la n d i n g a n d n o t
10

e n t e r in g i n t o S o u t h A f r i c a n s p a c e . T h e a c t u a l l a n d in g a t W a te r k l o o f.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t a n s w e r t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t y e s th e r e h a d b e e n

c a s e s b e f o r e w h e n D I R C O h a d a p p r o v e d t h e l a n d in g o f a i r c r a f ts a t
Wa t e r k l o o f ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ar e y o u a b l e to r e m e m b e r to t e l l m e s o m e o f t h e

examples of other occasions when that has happened?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : E v e n t h o u g h I c a n n o t
e x a c tl y r e m e m b e r o r r e c a l l b u t i f th e r e is a r e q u e s t li k e a r e q u e s t f r o m
20

G u i n e a s u c h a r e q u e s t is a r e q u e s t f o r t h e P r e s id e n t o r th e D e p u ty
President.

N o r m a l ly s u c h a r e q u e s t w i ll b e s e n t t o D I R C O o r i t w il l

s e n d t o u s a n d t h e n w e w il l s e n d th a t r e q u e s t to D IR C O .
CHAIRPERSON:
a c t u a ll y a p p r o v e ?

What – what – in those cases what does DIRCO
I s i t t h e a c tu a l l a n d in g o r d o t h e y m a k e – d o th e y

a p p r o v e th e v is i t th a t w il l b e m a d e b y t h a t H e a d o f S ta t e a n d t h e n t h e

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a c t u a l l a n d i n g t h e n g e t s a p p r o v e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e o r a r e
y o u s a y i n g th a t th e v is it a n d t h e l a n d in g a t Wa t e r k l o o f g e t s a p p r o v e d b y
D IR C O ? O k a y I a m s o r r y I a m g o i n g t o r e p e a t t h a t . M r I n t e r p r e t e r j u s t
lis t e n c a r e f u lly.

I n t h o s e c a s e s t h a t y o u ta lk a b o u t w h e r e y o u s a y

D IR C O h a s p r e v i o u s l y g iv e n a p p r o v a l . D o t h e y a p p r o v e th e v is it b y a
H e a d o f S t a te o r a D e p u ty H e a d o f S t a t e a n d t h e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
D e f e n c e a p p r o v e s t h e a c t u a l la n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t a t Wa t e r k lo o f o r
does DIRCO approve both?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
10

A c c o r d i n g to w h a t I

k n o w w h e r e I a m w o r k i n g a t th e C o m m a n d P o s t th e o n l y p o w e r s t h a t w e
h a v e is to g i v e a c le a r a n c e n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h e n y o u g iv e t h e c l e a r a n c e n u m b e r is th e

p o s i ti o n t h a t n o t t h a t y o u a r e p r o v i d i n g a p p r o v a l f o r t h e l a n d i n g o f a n
a ir c r a f t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is y o u r e v id e n c e th e r e fo r e t h a t b e fo r e a n a ir c r a f t
c a n l a n d a t Wa t e r k lo o f t h a t is b r i n g i n g a H e a d o f S t a t e o r D e p u ty H e a d
o f S t a t e t h e r e m u s t b e t w o a p p r o v a l s . O n e a p p r o v a l fr o m D I R C O a n d
a n o t h e r a p p r o v a l fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e F o r c e ? I a m s o r r y M r
20

I n t e r p r e te r a p p r o v a ls n o t a g r e e m e n ts , a p p r o v a ls .
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t I

k n o w is t h a t t h e D e fe n c e F o r c e i s t o is s u e a n u m b e r.

To is s u e o u t a

c le a r a n c e n u m b e r o f a n y fl ig h t w h ic h is g o i n g t o e n t e r t h e c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t th e i s s u a n c e o f t h a t c l e a r a n c e n u m b e r is i t n o t

t h e fi n a l s t e p t h a t a ll o w s t h e – a n a ir c r a f t t o l a n d ?

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M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is i t – w o u ld i t b e c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h e r e
m u s t b e a p p r o v a l fr o m D I R C O a n d a n a p p r o v a l f r o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
D e f e n c e Fo r c e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d t h e a p p r o v a l fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t – fr o m
D IR C O w h e r e t h e r e h a s b e e n n o n o te v e r b a l e w h a t f o r m w o u l d i t ta k e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : W h a t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t f o r m w o u l d it t a k e ? Th e a p p r o v a l fr o m D I R C O ?
10

W h a t f o r m w o u l d t h e a p p r o v a l ta k e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d

y o u r q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i t – l e t u s tr y.

Yo u s e e w h e n y o u g iv e y o u r

a p p r o v a l a t D e fe n c e – a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e Fo r c e y o u s a i d y o u
g iv e a c l e a r a n c e n u m b e r.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s t h e f o r m th a t y o u r a p p r o v a l t a k e s , d o y o u

understand?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s s o .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t in t h is c a s e t h e l e t t e r fr o m M r K o l o a n e ’s PA t h a t
a p p r o v a l to o k t h e fo r m o f a n e m a il , d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t ? N o Mr –
n o M r I n te r p r e t e r. T h e a p p r o v a l th a t c a m e fr o m D I R C O c a m e b y w a y o f
a n e m a il fr o m M r K o l o a n e ’s PA o n t h i s – in r e g a r d to t h i s m a t t e r.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w th e a p p r o v a l t h a t y o u t a l k a b o u t t h a t y o u e x p e c t

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
fr o m D IR C O d o e s i t a lw a y s
1.

C o m e b y w a y o f a l e t te r o r e m a i l a n d

2 . D o e s i t s a y w e g iv e a p p r o v a l t o t h e r e q u e s t ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]:

It come in a form of

a n e m a il w h ic h is a l e t te r t h a t c o n t a i n s th e p a r t ic u l a r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s t a n d b y y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u a s k e d Mr

K o lo a n e t o s e n d y o u s o m e t h i n g in w r it i n g t h a t w o u l d s h o w t h a t t h e r e
w a s a p p r o v a l fo r t h e r e q u e s t f o r a c l e a r a n c e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e e m a il t h a t c a m e fr o m h is PA s a tis f ie d w h a t

you were looking for?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s b e c a u s e i t g a v e

m e t h e r ig h t to c o n ti n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a i d t h a t h e h a d a s k e d h i s PA t o o n ly s e n d a l e t te r
to ask you to process the request.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t – t h o s e a r e h is
w o r d s y e s i n d e e d h e s a i d th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i s t h a t tr u e ?

Is t h a t w h a t th e tw o o f y o u

d is c u s s e d th a t h e w o u ld s e n d y o u s i m p ly a le t t e r o r s o m e t h in g in
20

w r i t in g th a t w o u ld s a y p r o c e s s t h e r e q u e s t o n ly ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : N o . H e n e v e r s a id h e
w i ll s e n d a n y t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I th o u g h t t h a t t h e tw o o f y o u h a d a d is c u s s i o n a n d
y o u a s k e d h i m t o s e n d s o m e t h i n g i n w r it i n g a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s
t h a t h e w a s g o in g to s e n d y o u s o m e t h i n g i n w r i ti n g .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I a s k e d f o r s o m e t h i n g
in b l a c k a n d w h i t e b u t h e s a i d h e d o e s n o t h a v e t h e p o w e r s to d o th a t
b e c a u s e t h is is a v e r y s e n s i ti v e is s u e t h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o a t t h e e n d o f y o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h h i m y o u
d i d n o t e x p e c t t o r e c e iv e a n y t h i n g i n w r i ti n g ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I w a s e x p e c t in g th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t h o w w e r e y o u e x p e c ti n g th a t i f h e h a d s a id h e
c o u l d n o t p u t th is in w r i t in g ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
10

I w a s a w a i ti n g t h a t

b e c a u s e h e s a i d h e w il l – b e c a u s e I a s k e d h i m t o s e n d m e s o m e t h i n g i n
w r i t in g a n d t h e n – a n d t h e n i n d e e d h e d id s e n d m e s o m e t h i n g in
w r i t in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I a m g e tt i n g a li t tl e c o n f u s e d .

I thought you

s a i d h e – h e s a i d h e w o u l d n o t p u t t h i s in w r i ti n g b e c a u s e i t w a s
s e n s i t iv e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

But I now understand you as if you are saying he

a c t u a ll y d id p r o m is e t o s e n d y o u s o m e th i n g i n w r i ti n g ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o . T h a t is n o t w h a t
20

I am saying.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

L e t u s tr y a n d g e t th is c l e a r.

Th e o n e t h in g

y o u a r e s a y in g i s t h a t y o u d i d a s k Mr K o lo a n e to s e n d y o u s o m e t h i n g in
w r i t in g . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e s e c o n d th i n g y o u a r e s a y in g is t h a t h e – h e

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s a i d h e c o u l d n o t p u t t h is in w r i ti n g b e c a u s e i t w a s s e n s i tiv e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id

he

thereafter

and

before

your

te l e p h o n e

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h h i m e n d e d d i d h e t h e r e a f te r c h a n g e h i s m i n d a n d s a y
h e w o u l d s e n d y o u s o m e t h i n g i n w r i ti n g ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o . I d o n o t r e c a ll .
CHAIRPERSON: So how – how come then you expected something in
w r i t in g fr o m h i m w h e n h e n e v e r p r o m i s e d y o u a n y th i n g in w r it i n g ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :
10

I w a s e x p e c ti n g

s o m e t h i n g i n b la c k a n d w h i t e fr o m h i m e v e n t h o u g h h e s a i d h e c a n n o t
b e a b l e t o s e n d i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y ? W h y d i d y o u e x p e c t h i m t o s e n d y o u s o m e th i n g
in w r i ti n g w h e n h e to l d y o u c l e a r l y I a m n o t g o i n g t o – I c a n n o t p u t t h is
in w r i t in g i t is to o s e n s i t iv e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s n o t
g o i n g t o c o n ti n u e p r o c e s s i n g i f I d id n o t g e t a n y t h in g fr o m D I R C O w h ic h
s a i d I m u s t c o n t i n u e p r o c e s s in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k M r N ts h i s i i f y o u c o u l d j u s t r e p e a t y o u r – y o u r
r e s p o n s e a n d M r In t e r p r e te r i f y o u c a n lis t e n .

20

I think you did not

u n d e r s t a n d h i s a n s w e r.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I could not have

c o n ti n u e d is s u i n g a c le a r a n c e w it h o u t a n y t h i n g i n b la c k a n d w h i te w h ic h
s t a te s I m u s t c o n ti n u e a n d t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e th a t I m u s t c o n t in u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is – is th a t a p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u m a d e q u i te c le a r t o

M r K o l o a n e – K o l o a n e a t th e ti m e o f y o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n ?

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

Even though I never

s a i d th o s e w o r d s t o h i m t h a t I w o u l d n e v e r c o n t i n u e w i th t h e c le a r a n c e
b u t a c c o r d in g t o m y k n o w le d g e w h e r e I a m w o r k in g t h e r e m u s t b e
s o m e t h i n g t h a t w il l t e l l m e th a t a s p e c i fic fl ig h t c a n b e a ll o w e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o r m a ll y - ( c o u g h i n g ) – n o r m a l ly w o u l d t h a t b e
a n o te v e r b a l e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s t h a t i s t r u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n th is c a s e w h e n y o u a s k e d f o r s o m e t h i n g i n

w r i t in g w e r e y o u a s k i n g fo r s o m e t h i n g i n w r it i n g i n t h e p l a c e o f t h e n o t e
10

v e r b a l e w h ic h w a s n o t t h e r e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : I w a s a c t u a ll y a s k in g
for the note verbale.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y o u w e r e a c t u a l ly w a n ti n g th e m t o p r o v id e y o u

with a note verbale?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

T h a t is tr u e b e c a u s e

t h e n o t e v e r b a l e is s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e a r e w o r k i n g w i th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t y o u r e c e i v e d w a s n o t a n o te v e r b a l e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B u t y o u w e r e p r e p a r e d t o u s e i t a s t h e r e q u ir e d

approval that you expected from DIRCO?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Quite

correct

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

C h a ir I s e e w e h a v e j u s t g o n e p a s t o u r

lu n c h ti m e b u t I – i f - w i t h y o u r l e a v e c a n I ju s t t a k e u p th is is s u e ju s t

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
o n e – o n e is s u e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k w e – w e c a n tr y.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : A n d c a r r y o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e – w e c a n c a r r y o n . I th i n k I h a v e c o v e r e d m o s t o f
the things.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t I w a s i n t e r e s t e d in .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t h i n k w e c a n tr y a n d fi n i s h …
10

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Fi n i s h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w h e n w e b r e a k w e – w e b r e a k fo r t h e d a y.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir I j u s t w a n t t o

b r i n g t h i s f o r w a r d t h a t t h e – th e o n ly l u x u r y th a t w e h a v e a s a
C o m m i s s i o n is t h e r e c o r d i n g s t h a t w e h a v e a n d I t h in k i t is i m p o r t a n t
t h a t w e – w e b e a r t h a t i n m i n d w h e n w e e n g a g i n g o n – o n t h e s e is s u e s
b e c a u s e w e d o h a v e t h e b e n e fi t o f th e c o n v e r s a ti o n s .

So I am just

g o i n g t o a s k y o u o n e s m a l l q u e s ti o n .
W h e n y o u s p o k e t o – I a m r e f e r r in g t o th e t e l e p h o n e
tr a n s c r ip t u n d e r f il e 1 3 C y o u r d i s c u s s i o n w i th – w i t h C o l o n e l –
20

Lieutenant Colonel

Anderson.

When

–

when

Colonel Anderson

e x p l a i n e d t o y o u th a t a r e y o u r e f u s i n g th e P r e s i d e n t – a r e y o u r e f u s i n g
t h e S t a t e Pr o to c o l b e c a u s e th e Pr e s id e n t k n o w s a b o u t t h i s ? A t t h a t –
a t t h a t ti m e I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d fr o m y o u w h e n y o u r e s p o n d e d th a t I
w i ll – I w i ll a t te n d t o i t .
W h a t – w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t th a t ti m e b e c a u s e my

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
u n d e r s t a n d in g is a t th e ti m e w h e n y o u – w h e n y o u w e r e a s k – y o u w e r e
w a i ti n g f o r t h e l a te r o r t h e n o te v e r b a l e y o u a l r e a d y s p o k e to
L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a n d a t th a t s t a g e y o u – y o u i n d i c a t e d t h a t
y o u w il l a t t e n d to t h e c l e a r a n c e – a t th a t s t a g e .
S o I j u s t w a n t t o ti e – I w a n t y o u t o e x p l a i n to m e w h e n d i d
t h is – w h e n d i d y o u c h a n g e to – t o y o u s a y i n g I a m n o t s a t is fi e d w i t h
t h e r e q u ir e m e n t th a t a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e c o m p l i e d w it h t o w h e n y o u s a y
it is fi n e .

I w i ll – I w i ll a t t e n d t o t h e c le a r a n c e w h e n y o u s p o k e t o

Colonel Anderson.
10

L e t m e tr y a n d m a k e it e a s y f o r y o u .

If I l o o k a t

FF13C on page 13 …
INTERPRETER: FF13 …
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : C .
INTERPRETER: Oh, C.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O n p a g e 1 3 o f th e r e c o r d in g . I a m g o i n g
to go to line 18 where Colonel Anderson says:
“ I f n o w I j u s t m e n ti o n t h a t t h is i s – y o h I m u s t b e
v e r y c a r e f u l . T h is is o u r – n u m b e r o n e k n o w s a b o u t
t h is v is i t. ”
And you say:

20

“J a , h e e x p l a i n e d t h a t t o m e m a ’ a m . ”
A n d I a m g o i n g to ju m p t h e r e . I a m g o i n g to t h e l a s t o n t h a t
p a g e w h ic h s a y s :
“ Ye s , y e s t h a t is w h y n o w I s a i d n o w le t m e c o n f ir m
w i t h y o u fi r s t . ”
What was the – I just want to understand. What were – what

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w e r e y o u s a y i n g w h e n y o u s a i d th a t ? D i d t h a t – w e r e y o u s a y i n g th a t
y o u w e r e g o in g to p r o c e e d a n d i s s u e t h e c l e a r a n c e n u m b e r ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

F o r m e s p e a k in g t o

C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n I w a n t e d to k n o w w h e th e r Wa t e r k l o o f is i t in a s t a te
t o a c c o m m o d a t e 2 1 7 p e o p le .

I did that because she was working the

m o v e m e n t o f a c tu a l ly r e c e iv i n g p e o p l e w h o a r e c o m i n g i n , i n a fl ig h t
a n d w h e n s h e s a i d t o m e t h e p e o p le w h o a r e c o m i n g in a n d te ll in g m e
t h a t s h e k n o w s t h o s e p e o p l e a n d r e fe r r i n g t o t h e P r e s id e n t .
B y m e n t io n in g th a t t h e Pr e s id e n t k n o w s a n d th a t h o w m a n y
10

p e o p l e c a n b e a c c o m m o d a t e d t h a t i s w h e n I to o k th e n t h e d e c is i o n th a t
y e s I w i ll th e n d o th a t .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : S o d o I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o s a y t h a t a t t h a t
ti m e b e f o r e y o u r e c e iv e d th e e m a il y o u w e r e i n y o u r m i n d y o u w e r e –
y o u w e r e c o n v i n c e d t h a t th e r e is – th e c l e a r a n c e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e
is s u e d ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : A t t h a t p o in t in t i m e it
w a s a lr e a d y i n my m i n d t h a t I w i ll j u s t c o n ti n u e a n d g iv e t h e m th e
c le a r a n c e n u m b e r.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

20

T h a t – t h a t is - t h a t is c o r r e c t b e c a u s e

e v e n A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a c c e p t e d t h a t b y t h a t n a m e d r o p p i n g – b y
m e n ti o n i n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t a c tu a l ly h e a d m i t te d h e w a s p u t t i n g p r e s s u r e .
S o y o u c o n c e d e t o th a t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is s o .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u . I – I n e e d t o m o v e f r o m t h a t
p o i n t u n l e s s i f t h e C h a ir w a n ts t o – t o t a k e i t .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . E a r li e r o n w e d e a l t w i t h t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r
a n y p r e s s u r e h a d b e e n p u t o n y o u o r r a th e r l e t m e r e p h r a s e t h a t . W e
d e a lt w i th t h e q u e s t i o n w h e th e r y o u a c t e d in t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h y o u
did because of any pressure.

My understanding was – was that you

s a i d n o y o u d i d n o t a c t in th e w a y y o u d i d b e c a u s e o f a n y p r e s s u r e . Is
that correct?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI

( t hr o u g h

i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

That

is

tr u e

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t y o u h a v e j u s t s a id y e s to a q u e s t i o n f r o m

M s R a n g a t a t o s a y y o u w e r e g o i n g to is s u e t h e c le a r a n c e b e c a u s e o f
t h e p r e s s u r e n o w th a t t h e n a m e o f t h e Pr e s id e n t h a d b e e n m e n ti o n e d .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Look all I can say is

t h a t b y m e n ti o n i n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s n a m e d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t th e r e w a s
p r e s s u r e e x e r t e d o n m e b u t I d i d t h a t b e c a u s e o f w h a t Mr K o lo a n e s a i d
to me.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I t h in k th a t is n o t w h a t t h e w i t n e s s s a id .

Just

r e p e a t y o u r a n s w e r Mr N ts h is i a n d l is t e n c a r e f u lly M r In t e r p r e t e r.
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : W h e n I w a s s p e a k i n g
20

t o C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n t h e r e w a s m e n ti o n o f t h e Pr e s id e n t’s n a m e y o u r
w o r s h i p – I m e a n C h a ir p e r s o n . B y m e n t io n i n g t h e P r e s id e n t t h a t d o e s
n o t m e a n s h e is p u t ti n g m e u n d e r p r e s s u r e b u t w h a t s h e s a id is t h a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t k n o w s a b o u t t h a t . I t o ld h e r t h a t e v e n M r K o lo a n e s a i d th a t
a n d th e n t h a t is w h e n a s w e w e r e c o n t in u i n g t a l k i n g I th e n a s k e d h e r
w h a t a r e t h e p a r ti c u la r s o f t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e c o m i n g t o Wa t e r k l o o f .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
S h e e x p la i n e d t h a t.

A f t e r s h e e x p la in e d t h a t th a t is w h e n I

t h e n s a i d to h e r I w ill t h e n c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e d e t a i ls t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w e r e t h e y –

w e r e t h e y t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts b e f o r e th a t h a d to b e m e t b e f o r e a n a i r c r a ft
could land Waterkloof?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a f te r s h e h a d e x p l a i n e d th o s e r e q u i r e m e n ts t o

y o u , y o u t h e n s a id y o u w o u l d g o a h e a d t o g i v e t h e c le a r a n c e . Is t h a t
what you said?
10

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Even though when

s h e e x p l a i n e d s h e w a s j u s t m a k i n g s o m e r e fe r e n c e – s h e w a s a c t u a l ly
t e ll i n g m e a n e x a m p l e t h a t i t is p o s s ib le t h a t a n a ir p la n e c a n c o m e –
c o m i n g i n w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t o r t h e D e p u t y o r s o m e o n e t h a t h a s b e e n
sent by the President.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Th a n k y o u - t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I a m g o i n g
t o l e a v e t h a t p o i n t . I t h in k w e h a v e – w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h i t e n o u g h .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, yes.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : I a m g o i n g to m o v e t o – t o m y – m y o t h e r
20

is s u e .

W h e n w e – w h e n w e li s t e n t o t h e r e c o r d i n g – r e c o r d i n g s e v e n

that appears under FF13C we – we hear your conversation with a lady
b y t h e n a m e o f S a r a h . A v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g d is c u s s io n . T h e r e is a l o t o f
t h i n g s b u t w e n e e d to c o n c e n tr a t e o n w h a t is r e l e v a n t to th is
C o m m i s s i o n . O k a y. C h a ir o n p a g e – I a m o n p a g e 2 7 o f th e – o f f il e
13C.

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
INTERPRETER: 27 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I r e m e m b e r t h e c o n v e r s a t io n …
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Quite well, ja.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Yo u s e e m t o b e i n t e r e s te d i n s o m e – i n

s o m e c o n n e c ti o n o f s o m e s o r t a n d – a n d t h a t o n e c a n n o t w o n d e r b u t t o
a s k b e c a u s e y o u m a k e s p e c i fi c r e f e r e n c e t o – t o th e d i s c u s s io n o f th e
la n d i n g o f th e – o f t h e G u p t a f a m il y a t – a t t h e b a s e a n d y o u r
10

a s s is t a n c e a n d t h e f a v o u r t h a t y o u h a v e m a d e .
S o I – I w a n t y o u to p u t i n t o c o n t e x t i n s h o r t w h a t is i t t h a t
y o u w a n te d S a r a h t o d o a n d w h a t d i d S a r a h h a v e to d o w i th t h e l a n d in g
o f t h e – o f t h e a e r o p l a n e a t t h e A ir F o r c e ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI (through interpreter):

C a n I e x p l a in h o w

S a r a h c a m e i n i n to t h is d i s c u s s i o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

S a r a h w it h w h o m –

S a r a h w h o w a s s p e a k i n g - a b o u t w h o is i n t h e r e c o r d in g s i s s o m e o n e
w h o i s w o r k i n g a t t h e L ic e n c i n g D e p a r t m e n t .
20

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : W h e n I w a s s p e a k i n g
t o h e r i f y o u l is t e n to w h e n I s ta r t e d t a lk in g t o h e r in th e r e c o r d i n g s .
W h e n w e s t a r te d t h e d i s c u s s i o n w h e n I p ic k e d u p t h e p h o n e w h e n I
asked her did she get my message she said yes she did.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

W h a t I w a n t e d fr o m

h e r is th a t s h e k n e w s o m e o n e w h o is in a h i g h e r p o s i t io n . T h a t p e r s o n
w i t h a h ig h e r p o s i ti o n k n o w n b y S a r a h h e r s e l f w h o m I d i d n o t e v e r s e e
m y s e l f . I w a n te d h e r to g e t m e i n t o c o n t a c t w i th t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n
b e c a u s e I n e e d e d a jo b .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t w a s t h i s p e r s o n th a t y o u w a n te d
Sarah to speak to?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :
10

I do not know where

t h a t p e r s o n w a s w o r k in g b u t i f y o u l is t e n t o o u r – o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n –
t h a t p e r s o n w a s n o t th e p e r s o n w h o w a s w o r k in g i n a d e p a r t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Is t h a t – i s th a t in t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f

D e f e n c e o r a r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t a n o th e r d e p a r t m e n t ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI (through interpreter):

What I know about

t h a t p e r s o n is th a t h e is s o m e o n e w h o i s h o l d i n g a h i g h e r p o s i t io n b u t
she never told me …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H i g h p o s i t io n M r I n te r p r e t e r n o t h i g h e s t .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : H i g h p o s i ti o n b u t s h e
n e v e r t o l d m e w h e r e o r w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t t h a t p e r s o n w a s w o r k i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y y o u w e r e a s k in g h e r t o h e l p y o u t o g e t a
jo b ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Where did you want to go and work?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI (through interpreter):
work at DIRCO.

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I w a n te d to g o a n d

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t w a s t h e c o n n e c ti o n o f t h is p e r s o n w i t h

D IR C O ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : I w i ll s p e a k a b o u t th e
recording.

Th e r e is s o m e w h e r e w h e r e I a m a s k i n g S a r a h w h e r e I a s k

h e r to a s k o n m y b e h a l f t o a s k t h a t p a r t ic u la r p e r s o n w h e t h e r h e o r s h e
k n o w s Vu s i K o l o a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

A n d if th a t p e r s o n

k n o w s Vu s i K o lo a n e t h a t’s w h y I a s k e d S a r a h to t e l l th a t p e r s o n t o
10

s p e a k w i th K o lo a n e o n my b e h a lf t o g e t m e a j o b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i s t h e p o s i t io n th a t y o u w a n t e d t o g o a n d w o r k a t
D IR C O a n d y o u w a n te d s o m e b o d y t h a t w o u l d s p e a k t o M r K o lo a n e o n
y o u r b e h a l f s o t h a t y o u c o u l d g e t a j o b in t h a t d e p a r t m e n t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

T h a t is tr u e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t o ta k e it fr o m t h e r e ?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Ye s C h a ir, s o y o u m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h i n g

a b o u t th e f a v o u r t h a t y o u h a v e d o n e fo r s o m e o n e , w h a t w o u l d b e t h a t
favour that you’re referring to?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :
20

I f y o u lis t e n t o t h e

recording the word favour that I use is the word that came in as I was
t a lk in g to S a r a h , th a t d o e s n ’ t m e a n t t h a t t h e r e i s s o m e o n e s p e c if ic th a t
I w a s d o in g a fa v o u r f o r. I a m n o t t a lk i n g in t e r m s o f t h e tr a d e p e o p l e
who are on the recordings.
CHAIRPERSON:

Were you asking Sarah to do you a favour by

s p e a k i n g t o t h a t p e r s o n w h o w o u ld t h e n s p e a k t o Mr K o lo a n e o n y o u r

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
behalf?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : C a n I c l a r i fy t h a t C h a ir ? S ir b e c a u s e I a m
w o r k i n g w i t h c l e a r a n c e s s o t h e r e is a fa v o u r th a t I a m d o in g f o r h i m
r ig h t n o w, s o I w a n t u s t o a d d r e s s i t i n t h a t c o n t e x t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll l e t ’s h e a r h is a n s w e r f ir s t , h e h a s s a id h e o n ly

u s e d t h e w o r d f a v o u r w h e n h e w a s s p e a k in g t o S a r a h .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Were you asking Sarah to do you a favour by

s p e a k i n g t o t h e o t h e r p e r s o n t o w h o m y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d w h o w o u l d in
10

t u r n s p e a k o n y o u r b e h a l f to M r K o l o a n e ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

T h a t is tr u e .

CHAIRPERSON: Then you can take it from there.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

A n d w h a t d id t h a t h a v e t o d o w i t h th e

I n d ia n a ir c r a f t , h o w d o e s I n d i a n a i r c r a ft f e a t u r e i n to t h e w h o l e
d is c u s s io n ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

If you remember

c o r r e c t ly i n o u r d i s c u s s i o n I a ls o i n v o l v e d t h e n a m e o f M r K o l o a n e .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
20

When Sarah was

g o i n g t o s p e a k t o t h a t p a r tic u la r p e r s o n s h e w o u l d th e n te ll t h e p e r s o n
w h e r e Th a b o N ts h is i is e m p l o y e d , w h i c h w a s g o i n g t o b e v e r y s i m p le
f o r M r K o l o a n e t o r e m e m b e r w h e n th e y n a m e d Th a b o N t s h is i u p h e r e a s
t o w h i c h p e r s o n a r e th e y t a lk i n g a b o u t .
ADV

BAITSENG

R A N G ATA :

Would

you

say

that

your

recent

engagement with Mr Koloane made it easier for you to make that

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
r e q u e s t fr o m S a r a h ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

N o th a t i s n o t li k e

that.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : I f y o u d id n o t h a v e a n y e n g a g e m e n t, t h e r e
w a s n o r e q u e s t fo r t h e I n d i a n a ir c r a f t w o u l d y o u h a v e k n o w n o r w o u l d
y o u h a v e i n a n y e v e n t m e n ti o n e d K o l o a n e ’s n a m e a n d r e q u e s t h i m to
in t e r v e n e o r to a s s is t y o u t o l o o k f o r a jo b o p p o r t u n i ty.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :
10

N o t h a t is n o t s o .

If s o m e o n e s a y s t h a t y o u – a s m u c h a s

y o u w e r e n o t h a p p y a n d I m u s t a ls o m e n ti o n t h a t o u t o f a ll t h e p e o p l e
t h a t w e h a v e li s te n e d t o i n t h is C o m m i s s io n t h a t y o u w e r e t h e o n ly
p e r s o n t h a t s h o w e d s o m e r e s i s t a n c e in t e r m s o f g r a n t in g t h e c le a r a n c e
or processing the request.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Ye s th a t i s s o .

I f s o m e o n e w a s t o s a y t h a t y o u fi n a ll y

g a v e in b e c a u s e y o u a n tic ip a t e d t o g e t s o m e th i n g t o b e n e fi t fr o m th is
a c ti v i ty w h a t w o u ld b e y o u r c o m m e n t t o t h a t?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

N o t h a t is n o t th e

tr u th o r it ’s n o t l ik e t h a t b e c a u s e I h a v e a lr e a d y s t a t e d th a t w h e n w e
20

s t a r t e d t a lk s b e t w e e n my s e l f a n d S a r a h I h a d s e n t h e r a m e s s a g e
b e f o r e . Th e m e s s a g e w a s m e r e l y a s k i n g d i d s h e s p e a k t o t h e p e r s o n
t h a t w e a r e r e fe r r i n g t o , w h a t I c a n s a y l u c k o r b a d l u c k w a s th a t I g o t
in v o lv e d in t h i s I n d i a n a i r f li g h t.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

A n d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty a t th a t t i m e w a s

p e r f e c t b e c a u s e t h e n y o u c a n j u s t d r o p th e n a m e o f A m b a s s a d o r

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
K o lo a n e , w h ic h w i ll s p e e d u p t h e p r o c e s s ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s t h a t i s tr u e , it

w a s g o i n g to b e e a s y f o r Mr K o l o a n e t o r e m e m b e r w h o T h a b o N ts h is i i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u a r e b o t h s p e a k in g a t c r o s s - p u r p o s e s .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , m a y b e y o u c o u ld r e p e a t y o u r q u e s ti o n .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

O k a y, I a m g o i n g t o tr y a n d r e p h r a s e m y

q u e s t io n . W h a t I a m s a y i n g is a t t h e t i m e i t w a s m o r e c o n v e n i e n t fo r
y o u w h e n y o u w e r e f o l l o w in g u p , r e m e m b e r th is C o m m is s i o n is n o t p r iv y
10

t o y o u r fir s t m e s s a g e t h a t y o u s e n t t o S a r a h , w e d o n ’t k n o w w h e n y o u
s p o k e t o S a r a h a n d w h a t y o u r d is c u s s i o n w a s b u t th e b e n e fi t t h a t w e
h a v e is w h e n t h e r e c o r d i n g w a s d o n e y o u f o r c o n v e n ie n c e s a k e y o u
s p o k e a b o u t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d w e s a w, s o m e b o d y w il l s a y t h a t
y o u s a w a n o p p o r tu n i ty to u s e t h e n a m e b e c a u s e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a
b e n e fi t fo r y o u , i f y o u m e n t io n e d t h e n a m e o f K o l o a n e .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s th a t ’s a ll .

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, are you saying that yes you did use the

o p p o r t u n i ty o f h a v i n g a r o l e to p la y i n r e g a r d to t h e c le a r a n c e r e q u e s t
20

f o r th e In d ia n a ir c r a f t ?

N o , n o Mr I n te r p r e te r l e t ’s s ta r t a fr e s h I t h in k

y o u w e r e t o o q u ic k . A r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t y o u a d m i t th a t y o u s a w y o u r
r o l e i n t h e r e q u e s t f o r c l e a r a n c e i n r e g a r d t o t h e a ir c r a f t a s p r o v i d i n g
y o u w i th a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o g e t s o m e f a v o u r fr o m M r K o l o a n e ?
MAJOR THABO NTSHISI [through interpreter]:
Yo u r W o r s h i p .

Page 110 of 117

No that is not so

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, I d id t h i n k y o u m a y h a v e b e e n a t c r o s s -

purposes.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

O k a y, I a m g o i n g t o tr y a n d m a y b e ju s t

s a y i t i n s m a ll b i t s , s o t h a t i t c a n b e c le a r. W h e n y o u s p o k e t o S a r a h
o n t h e p a r tic u l a r d a y w h e n t h e r e c o r d i n g w a s d o n e y o u s p o k e a b o u t ,
y o u m a d e r e fe r e n c e to t h e I n d i a n f li g h t .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A n d y o u s p o k e a b o u t t h e f a v o u r, t h a t

f a v o u r t h a t y o u w e r e tr y in g to e x p l a i n w h e t h e r it ’s 10

I couldn’t

u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e f a v o u r i s f o r, b u t y o u s p o k e a b o u t d o i n g s o m e b o d y
a f a v o u r.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Ye s .

What I want you to comment on is

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I th in k M r I n te r p r e te r y o u d i d n o t g e t t h e

in t e r p r e t a ti o n c o r r e c t . Th e q u e s t io n t h a t w a s p u t to t h e w it n e s s is w h a t
w a s p u t t o h i m w a s t h a t d u r in g t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n h e m e n ti o n e d – h e
m a d e m e n t io n o f h i m d o in g s o m e b o d y a fa v o u r.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
20

T h a t is tr u e .

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : A n d a c tu a l ly t h e l a d y i n t e r fe r e d a n d s a i d
y e s , b e c a u s e y o u h a d n o t f i n is h e d s o y o u c o n ti n u e s a y i n g o f a n I n d i a n
a ir c r a f t t h a t m u s t c o m e o n t h e 2 9 t h , s o y o u w e r e v e r y s p e c if ic a b o u t t h e
f a v o u r.
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a t is tr u e .

S o I a m s a y in g I w a n t y o u r c o m m e n t o n

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
t h e f o l l o w i n g , I ’ m s a y i n g w h e n y o u s p o k e t o th is l a d y i t w a s o p p o r t u n is t
– o p p o r t u n e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e Ms R a n g a t a l e t ’s g e t t o k n o w w h a t fa v o u r h e

w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t fi r s t .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : A g r e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e f a v o u r t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d y o u w e r e d o i n g
o r c o u l d b e d o in g fo r s o m e b o d y i n th a t c o n v e r s a t io n ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

L o o k a s I ’v e a lr e a d y

s t a te d i n o u r d i s c u s s io n s th e r e w a s th is w o r d f a v o u r th a t e m e r g e d b u t I
10

d i d n o t a c t u a ll y s p e c i fi c a ll y s a y i n f a c t I d i d a f a v o u r f o r th is s p e c if ic
person.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u m i g h t j u s t r e a d t h e e x tr a c t , y o u w a n t e d t o
r e a d t h e e x tr a c t a t s o m e s t a g e .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Yo u q u a li f y i n g th e f a v o u r, y o u c o n ti n u e o ff
a n I n d i a n a ir c r a f t t h a t m u s t c o m e o n t h e 2 9 t h , s o w h e n I r e a d t h is
s t a te m e n t it ’s n o t s o m e th i n g t h a t ju s t c a m e o u t o f n o w h e r e , t h a t ju s t
d r o p p e d i n , i t h a s c o n te n t a n d y o u h a v e c o n t in u e d t o g iv e c o n te n t to i t
a n d th a t ’s w h a t I w a n t y o u to c o m m e n t o n , t h a t c o m p le t e s e n t e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

O k a y I t h in k ju s t r e a d t h e e x tr a c t s o th a t h e

u n d e r s t a n d s th e c o n te x t w h a t t h e s e n te n c e s a y s a n d th e c o n te x t t h e n
before he can comment.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I a m g o i n g t o r e a d fr o m
p a g e 2 7 o f F F 1 3 , li n e 1 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s s e e i f h e h a s g o t i t ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Page 112 of 117

Ye s .

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

I’ v e g o t i t.

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :
“ M a j o r N ts h is i [ t h a t ’s y o u s p e a k in g ] s o b e c a u s e I a m w o r k in g
w i t h ( i n d is t in c t ) c l e a r a n c e s s o t h e r e is a fa v o u r t h a t I a m d o i n g
f o r h i m r ig h t n o w. Yo u u n d e r s ta n d . ”
T h e n t h e n e x t li n e is M s S a r a h s a y i n g “ y e s ” , a n d y o u c o n ti n u e o n t h a t
n e x t li n e .
“ . . .o f a n I n d i a n a i r c r a ft t h a t m u s t c o m e o n t h e 2 9 t h . ”
10

M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s t h a t is tr u e , I d i d

say that.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

So given that context are you able to

e x p l a i n w h a t th e fa v o u r t h a t y o u d id , w h a t f a v o u r i t w a s ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

At that moment when

I s p o k e t h o s e w o r d s I w a s m e r e ly s p e a k i n g a t th a t s p e c i f ic ti m e , t h e r e
w a s n o a c tu a lly f a c t a s t o w h ic h fa v o u r I w a s ta lk in g a b o u t.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

But when we now

lo o k in d e ta il s a t i t i t lo o k s a s i f I w a s d o i n g s o m e o n e a fa v o u r lik e M r
20

K o lo a n e .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

If you require the

c le a r a n c e w h e n I w a s ta lk in g w i t h Mr K o lo a n e e v e n t h o u g h I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r f r o m w h i c h ti m e to w h a t t i m e b u t i t w a s o n l y o n e d a y. A t th e
e n d o f o u r d i s c u s s io n s b e tw e e n C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n a n d M r K o lo a n e w h e n

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
y o u lo o k a t th is r e c o r d in g s o r t h e d is c u s s io n s i t l o o k s li k e a s if I w a s
d o i n g t h e m a f a v o u r b e c a u s e i t t o o k a s p e c if ic ti m e o f t h e d a y.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : A n d t h e n w h e n y o u l o o k d e e p in t o i t l ik e
t h a t i t lo o k s li k e I w a s d o i n g a f a v o u r.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you not doing them a favour?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : N o t h a t is n o t s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id y o u n o t s a y in t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t y o u w e r e
g o i n g t o d o Mr K o l o a n e a f a v o u r ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
10

I n e v e r m e n ti o n e d

a n y p e r s o n ’s n a m e w h e n I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t d o i n g s o m e o n e a f a v o u r
C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . W a s t h e r e s o m e t h in g y o u w a n t e d t o
add?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : N o C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

I a g r e e , y o u d i d n o t m e n ti o n a n a m e b u t

y o u w e r e v e r y c l e a r in t h e n e x t li n e t h a t is in c o n n e c ti o n w i t h t h e I n d i a n
a ir c r a f t , s o y o u d i d n o t – I a g r e e w i t h y o u , b u t y o u ’r e v e r y c l e a r t h a t i t ’s
in l i n e w i t h th e In d ia n a ir c r a f t .
20

M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : W h a t is w r i t te n h e r e ,
y e s i t ’s t h e t r u t h .

Th e p e r s o n th a t I ’ m s p e a k i n g t o w h o i s th e f o u r th

p e r s o n , b e i n g S a r a h , a s I h a v e a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d w h e r e s h e is w o r k in g
t h e r e i s n o t h i n g t h a t c o n n e c t h e r to t h e I n d ia n fli g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u s ti ll h a v e a n y th i n g ?
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

I w a n t e d to h a v e y o u r l a s t c o m m e n t , s o

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
w h e n y o u s p o k e t o S a r a h a n d y o u m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e I n d i a n a ir c r a ft ,
o r y o u m e n ti o n t h e n a m e o f A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e , d id y o u w a n t h i m t o
a c k n o w l e d g e y o u f o r w h a t y o u h a v e d o n e w i t h r e g a r d to t h e In d ia n
a ir c r a f t ?
M A J O R TH A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] : I h a v e a lr e a d y s t a t e d
t h a t w h e n I w a s s p e a k in g t o S a r a h a n d a s k i n g h e r t o s p e a k w it h t h a t
p e r s o n o n m y b e h a l f th a t s p e c i fi c p e r s o n w h e n h e o r s h e w a s g o i n g t o
s p e a k w i t h Mr K o l o a n e m e n t i o n i n g t h e n a m e Th a b o M r K o lo a n e w o u l d
s i m p l y r e m e m b e r w h o t h a t p e r s o n is .
10

A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : A n d y o u – s o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry from the evidence that Mr Koloane gave

h e r e a n d fr o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d th e r e c o r d i n g s t o i n d ic a t e h e s e e m s t o
have

been

very

keen

that

approval

be

g iv e n ,

was

th a t

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f h i s a t ti t u d e a s w e l l?
I N T E R P R E T E R : H e s e e ms t o b e v e r y ?
CHAIRPERSON: He seemed to be very keen to get the Department of
D e f e n c e t o a p p r o v e t h e c l e a r a n c e , w a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t th e
ti m e a s w e l l?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : L e t ’s s a y it h a p p e n e d
20

t h a t S a r a h s p o k e t o t h a t p e r s o n a n d le t ’s s a y w h e n I w a s s p e a k i n g to
S a r a h a n d a s k i n g h e r t o s p e a k w it h t h i s o t h e r p e r s o n , le t ’s s a y i t
h a p p e n e d t h a t p e r s o n k n e w M r K o l o a n e i t w a s g o i n g to b e s i m p le f o r
t h a t p e r s o n w h e n h e w a s s p e a k i n g t o M r K o l o a n e f o r Mr K o l o a n e t o
r e c o g n is e w h o I w a s . I t w a s g o i n g t o b e u p o n Mr K o lo a n e a s t o w h a t t o
d o a b o u t m y r e q u e s t , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t h e w a s g o i n g to s a y.

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11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u a g r e e t h a t i f in h a n d li n g t h e r e q u e s t f o r

c le a r a n c e y o u d i d s o m e t h i n g t h a t m a d e M r K o l o a n e u n h a p p y th a t w o u l d
c o u n t a g a in s t y o u i n y o u r q u e s t t o g e t a jo b w i t h h i m , w i th h i s
d e p a r t m e n t?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s I a g r e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I a m n o t s u r e i f t h e in t e r p r e ta t io n w a s a c c u r a t e ,
le t m e ju s t r e p e a t, d o y o u a g r e e t h a t i f M r K o l o a n e w h e n h e h e a r d th a t
y o u w e r e l o o k i n g f o r a j o b in h i s d e p a r t m e n t i f h e w a s a w a r e th a t y o u
h a d d o n e s o m e t h in g th a t h e w a s u n h a p p y a b o u t w i t h r e g a r d t o th e
10

request for clearance that would have

j e o p a r d is e d y o u r p r o s p e c ts o f

g e t t in g a j o b t h r o u g h h i m ?
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s i n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, ju s t i n c lo s i n g y o u c a n

ju s t c o m m e n t , o n e c a n o n ly m a k e a c o n c l u s i o n t h a t y o u d i d w h a t y o u
d i d b e c a u s e y o u w a n te d A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e to r e m e m b e r y o u w h e n
t h e ti m e is r ig h t ? Yo u c a n c o m m e n t .
M A J O R T H A B O N T S H I S I [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

I do not agree with

t h a t a n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h t h a t, I k n o w Mr K o lo a n e
20

w h e n I w a s ta lk in g w i t h h i m t e l e p h o n ic a l ly a t th a t ti m e , i t w a s g o in g t o
d e p e n d o n h i m s h o u l d h e a g r e e t o g i v e m e a j o b o r n o t. B y m e d o in g
t h a t a g a i n i t w a s g o in g to d e p e n d f r o m h i m w h e t h e r h e is g o in g t o o ff e r
m e t h e jo b o r n o t , s o I d o n ’ t a g r e e w i t h t h e fa c t t h a t I d i d t h a t b e c a u s e I
n e e d e d t o g e t a jo b a t D IR C O .
ADV

BAITSENG

R A N G ATA :

Th a n k

you

Page 116 of 117

Chair

I

don’t

have

11 JULY 2019 – DAY 131
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : .. . a n y f u r th e r q u e s t i o n s , t h a t w il l b e i t fo r
me.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M a j o r N ts h i s i f o r c o m i n g b a c k

w h e n y o u w e r e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k a n d c la r i fy s o m e o f t h e a s p e c ts o f
your evidence, thank you very much.
10

MAJOR

THABO

NTSHISI

[ t hr o u g h

i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Th a n k

you

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
A D V B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e w i l l a d j o u r n th e p r o c e e d i n g s f o r t o d a y
a n d to m o r r o w w e w il l s ta r t a t te n , w e a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 2 J U LY 2 0 1 9

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