C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
BRAAMFONTEIN CHAMBERS

10

12 MARCH 2020

D AY 2 2 2

20

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE ON 12 MARCH 2020
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

To s t a r t w it h a n a p o l o g y.

Yo u r a is e d q u e s ti o n s

y e s t e r d a y M r C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t t h e b u n d l e s . W e c o u l d o n ly g e t t o t a l k
t o t h e c o r r e c t p e o p l e t h i s m o r n in g . T h e y a r e w o r k in g o n t h e m a n d t h e y
t e ll m e t h e y w il l n e e d a n o t h e r h a l f h o u r s o I a m g o i n g t o p le a s e a s k if
w e c o u ld s t a r t j u s t a f te r 1 0 : 3 0 . Th e b u n d l e s w il l t h e n b e in t h e o r d e r
t h a t – th a t y o u h a v e s u g g e s te d a n d w h ic h o b v io u s ly w o u l d a ll o w u s t o
p r o c e e d e x p e d i t io u s ly.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y a lr ig h t ( C h a i r p e r s o n n o t s p e a k i n g in t o t h e

m ic r o p h o n e ) d o y o u m e a n h a l f p a s t te n o r a t q u a r te r t o e le v e n ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Mr Chairperson may – may I suggest quarter to

e l e v e n b u t i f i t i s e a r l i e r w e w i ll g iv e y o u a s h o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( C h a ir p e r s o n n o t s p e a k in g i n to t h e m ic r o p h o n e ) .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr i g h t.

I s e e th e r e a r e l i g h ts t h a t h a v e b e e n

p u t i n b u t i t w i ll b e c e r t a in ly t h a t o n e is t o o b r i g h t a n d I h a d h o p e d t h e
t e c h n ic ia n s o n t h e ir ( in d is ti n c t) .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I c a n s a y to y o u Mr C h a ir p e r s o n fr o m h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

T h a t t h e li g h ts h e r e l o o k o k a y b u t y o u l o o k li k e

s o m e t h i n g ( i n d is t in c t ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o – j a .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : J a . I d o n o t k n o w w e w il l tr y a n d d e a l w i t h t h a t a s
w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I t h i n k th a t o n e a t t h e t o p w a s n o t ( i n d is ti n c t) b u t

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
fr o m w h a t I a m t o ld i t m ig h t b e t h a t i t is – i t o n ly w o r k s u n d e r c e r t a in
c ir c u m s ta n c e s .

I t w i ll s til l ( i n d is ti n c t) o r s o m e t h in g .

It may be that

t h e y n e e d to s e e w h e t h e r th e y c a n p o s it i o n t h e b a c k o n e w h e r e i t is n o t
going to be so bright.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n o t k n o w e x a c tl y h o w t h e y s h o u l d i t b u t t h e y –

t h e y h a v e i t ( in d is ti n c t) .

I do not know about this one to people that

s id e w h e t h e r i t l o o k s fi n e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s it is
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is o n e w a s n o t th e r e y e s t e r d a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t w a s n o t t h e r e y e s te r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a h o w is it – i s i t f i n e ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is f in e . S o I th i n k i t is j u s t t h a t o n e . It m a y b e th a t
p a r t o f t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) th a t s e e m s t o b e …
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t s o m e th i n g d o n e o v e r th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e w o u l d ( i n d is t in c t ) b u t i t i s b e e n d ir e c tly i t
m i g h t b e f in e I a m n o t s u r e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s ( i n d is ti n c t) i d e a M r C h a ir p e r s o n th a t t h e y w il l

20

a d j u s t th e y h a v e h e a r d w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d a n d t h e y w i ll a d j u s t i t
a c c o r d i n g l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O k a y n o th a t is f in e . S o w e w i ll s e t d o w n
t h e m a t te r u n t il q u a r t e r t o e le v e n u n le s s y o u w i ll l e t m e e a r l ie r t h a t w e
c a n p u r s u e a n d u n d e r w h i c h p a g e s y o u w o u l d l ik e t o ( in d i s ti n c t) .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m i n d e b t e d t o y o u M r C h a ir p e r s o n .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
MEETING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
(There is no sound from 03:29 – 08:05)
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e ( i n d is t in c t ) R e p o r t i s i t n o t a s e p a r a te e x h ib i t o n
it s o w n ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

It is i n f a c t a – i t is in a s e p a r a te – e n tir e ly

s e p a r a t e fil e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t is a s e p a r a t e e x h ib i t j a .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d t h e n t h e r e is M r M o l e f e – B u n d l e D is M r

M o le f e ’s a ff i d a v i t to g e th e r w i t h t h e a n n e x u r e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

B u n d le E is M s N g o y e ’s – t w o o f M s N g o y e ’s

a ffi d a v i ts w it h th e a n n e x u r e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Annexures ja.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e n B u n d le F a r e t h e a ff id a v i ts t o g e th e r w i t h
20

t h e a n n e x u r e s o f t h e r e s t o f t h e w it n e s s e s n a m e l y Mr A c h m a t , M r
D i n g is w a y o .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Ms Kweyama, Mr Holele, Mr Rakgoathe and Mr

M u ll e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o th a t i s f in e .

I th i n k w e ju s t a ls o n e e d t o

Page 4 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
e m p h a s is e t h a t a l t h o u g h o n t h e s p in e o f t h e s e fi l e s th e y w il l a p p e a r
E x h i b i t n u m b e r s – t h e E x h i b i t n u m b e r s d o n o t r e f e r t o t h e fi l e t h e y r e fe r
t o t h e d o c u m e n ts i n s id e th e fi le s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d w e w il l r e fi n e – w e w i ll r e f in e t h a t s o t h a t

r e fe r e n c e s t h a t y o u l o o k a t w i ll t e l l y o u e x a c tl y w h a t is i n th a t fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o w h a t e v e r i s t h e r e w e w ill r e fi n e to s o m e e x t e n t .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r s o n b e fo r e w e c o n ti n u e I a m to ld t h a t th a t
li g h t h a s b e e n a d j u s t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m j u s t lo o k in g a t t h e l ig h ti n g .

Th e r e is s o m e

i m p r o v e m e n t i n te r ms o f t h e l ig h ti n g it is j u s t t h a t i t i s n o t e n o u g h a n d
t h e – t h a t li g h t is n o t f a c in g m e th e w a y i t w a s b e f o r e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o n d e r w h e t h e r th e s e o n e s w o r k o r w h e t h e r t h e y –
w h e n t h e y a r e o n t h e y c a u s e a n y p r o b le m s b e c a u s e I s e e r i g h t a t t h e
b a c k t h e r e w i t h th e li g h ts o n t h e c e i li n g i t l o o k s q u i t e w e ll . T h e l i g h t in g
20

s e e m s q u i t e fi n e . W e ll t h o s e r e s p o n s ib le d o h e a r w h a t I h a v e t o s a y.
M a y b e th e y a r e n o t w o r k i n g b u t l e t u s c o n t in u e i n t h e m e a n ti m e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s u r e a t s o m e s ta g e w e w ill h a v e p e r f e c t l ig h ti n g
REGISTRAR:

Ye s .

M r C h a ir p e r s o n b e fo r e w e c o n ti n u e w it h t h e

e v i d e n c e o f M r M o l e fe w e a r e c o n s tr a i n t to p l a c e a m a tt e r o n r e c o r d

Page 5 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
b e c a u s e it h a s e m e r g e d i n t h e p u b l ic s p a c e . A p p a r e n t ly M i n is t e r F ik i l e
M b a l u la w a s o n r a d io t h is m o r n in g c o m p la i n i n g th a t h e h a d n o t r e c e i v e d
t h e a ffi d a v i ts in w h ic h c o m m e n ts a r e m a d e a b o u t th e d is m is s a l o f M s
K w e y a m a ’s B o a r d . M s C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e b e e n to l d a n d I h a v e p r o o f
h e r e th a t i n r e s p e c t o f M s K w e y a m a ’s a ffi d a v i t t h a t a ffi d a v it w a s i n f a c t
s e r v e d o n M r M b a l u la t h r o u g h a – a n e m a i l a d d r e s s w h ic h t h e
c o m m i s s io n h a s u s e d p r e v i o u s ly a n d a b o u t w h ic h th e r e h a v e b e e n n o
c o m p la i n t s . T h e s a m e a p p l ie s to M r A c h m a t’s a ff id a v i ts . A n d th e s a m e
a p p li e s t o Ms N g o y e ’s a ff i d a v i t . S o t h e y w e r e a ll s e r v e d o n h i m a n d I
10

c o u l d j u s t s a y M r C h a i r p e r s o n th a t in a d d i ti o n t o th e n o r m a l a d d r e s s
o n e o f t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s s a w – l o o k e d i f t h e r e w a s a n a d d i ti o n a l
a d d r e s s a n d a f te r t h e a ff id a v i t o f M s K w e y a m a w a s s e r v e d o n h i m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t n o t K w e y a m a ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : K w e y a m a y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : K w e y a m a j a I t h i n k it is j a .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Ye s .

A f t e r t h a t a ffi d a v i t w a s s e r v e d Mr

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e f u r th e r tw o a ff id a v i ts n a m e ly th a t o f M s N g o y e a n d Mr
A c h m a t w e r e s e r v e d o n a s e c o n d a d d r e s s a s w e ll . N o w a t t h e e n d o f
t h e d a y M r C h a ir p e r s o n w e d o n o t w h a t t o b e s i d e tr a c k e d fr o m t h e
20

m a t t e r. T h e r e h a s b e e n a c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n th e c o m m is s i o n a n d
t h e M i n i s tr i e s o ff ic e a n d a ll t h e a ffi d a v i ts w e r e t h e n – t h a t w e s e r v e d o n
t h a t a d d r e s s w e fo r w a r d e d t o t h e Mi n is t r y a n d t h e y a p p e a r t o h a v e
c o n fir m e d th a t a t le a s t t h is m o r n in g t h e y h a d r e c e iv e d t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a i r p e r s o n .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r M o l e f e t h e o a t h y o u t o o k y e s te r d a y w i ll c o n ti n u e

t o a p p ly. Yo u a c c e p t t h a t ?
M R M O L E F E : ( In d i s ti n c t) .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r M o l e f e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I th i n k y o u m a y k e e p y o u r m i c r o p h o n e o n I h a v e
b e e n t o ld t h a t t h a t s h o u l d b e fi n e .
10

A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r M o l e fe y e s t e r d a y w e in t e r r u p te d y o u r e v i d e n c e
at the point where…
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Soni.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I just mention in case anybody who has something to
s a y I p r o p o s e t h a t s i n c e w e h a v e h a d t h is d e l a y w e d o n o t t a k e a n y t e a
b r e a k w e g o s t r a i g h t u p t o l u n c h ti m e . M r M o l e fe w o u l d t h a t f i n e w i th
you?
M R M O L E F E : ( N o t a u d i b le ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.

20

A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a n k y o u . M a y b e I s h o u ld h a v e p la c e d th a t o n
r e c o r d . S o r r y M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w th e to p ic b e f o r e w h ic h w e s t o p p e d is in y o u r
a ffi d a v i t d e a lt w i t h a s y o u r e a r l y d a y s a t P R A S A . Yo u r e m e m b e r th a t?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

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A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w w o u l d y o u t e ll th e C h a ir v e r y b r i e fl y w h a t

y o u r e x p e r ie n c e s w e r e a b o u t t h e t i m e y o u w e r e a p p o i n te d a s t h e C h a ir
o f t h e B o a r d ? I f y o u c o u ld t e l l u s w h e n y o u w e r e a p p o i n te d a n d s o o n ?
MR MOLEFE:
2014.

C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s a p p o i n t e d o n t h e – o n t h e 1 A u g u s t

O t h e r d ir e c t o r s w e r e a ls o a p p o i n t e d a t t h e s a m e t i m e .

I must

h a s te n t o s a y t h a t I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d i n t h e ir n o m in a ti o n p e r s e . N o w
o n c e w e h a d b e e n c o n f ir m e d a s a B o a r d o f D i r e c t o r s th e f ir s t t h i n g I d i d
w a s t o m e e t w i th th e G r o u p C E O o f – o f P R A S A M r L u c k y M o n t a n a w h o
g e n e r o u s ly c o n g r a t u l a t e d m e o n m y a p p o i n t m e n t .
10

H e to ld m e a b i t

a b o u t w h a t a g r e a t l e a d e r I w a s . H e f o ll o w e d m y s tr u g g le , tr a c k r e c o r d
a n d h e m e n ti o n e d m o r e s p e c if ic a l ly t h e D e l m a s Tr e a s o n Tr ia l w h ic h
in v o lv e d

th e

leaders

of the

U n i te d

D e m o c r a ti c

Fr o n t.

A fr o n t

o r g a n i s a t io n f o r w h ic h I w a s t h e G e n e r a l S e c r e t a r y a t th e t i m e o f t h e
tr i a l. A n d i t w a s h e l d a t D e l m a s . I t c a m e to b e k n o w n a s t h e D e l m a s
Tr e a s o n Tr i a l a n d I th in k i t w a s D e l m a s 1 .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y M r M o l e f e . J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d y o u w e r e o n e
o f t h e a c c u s e d i n t h e tr ia l?
M R M O L E F E : I w a s o n e th e a c c u s e d in t h e tr ia l . I t w a s n o t a n e a s y
tr i a l. I h a d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e f o r f o u r w e e k s in t h e w i tn e s s s ta n d fo r f o u r
20

weeks.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h a t w a s d u r i n g a p a r t h e i d ?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t s o t h a t w h o e v e r m a y r e a d t h i s tr a n s c r i p t y o u r

e v i d e n c e t e n y e a r s , t w e n ty y e a r s f r o m n o w th e y s h o u l d n o t t h i n k i t w a s
u n d e r d e m o c r a c y.

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR

MOLEFE:

In

fact

the

fundamental

demand

of the

U n it e d

D e m o c r a tic F r o n t w a s t h a t w e n e e d e d a n i n c l u s iv e a n d d e m o c r a ti c
c o n s ti t u ti o n w h ic h p r o v i d e d fo r U n iv e r s a l S u ff r a g e .

A right that

e x c lu d e d b y t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n u n d e r t h e a p a r t h e i d g o v e r n m e n t.

So in

r e s p o n s e t o M r M o n t a n a ’s g e n e r o u s c o n g r a tu l a t i o n s a n d a t t h e s a m e
ti m e o f c o u r s e a s h e w a s c o n g r a t u l a ti n g m e h e i n f o r m e d m e th a t h e h a d
b e e n i n P R A S A f o r a l o n g t i m e . H e h a d p r e v i o u s ly a d v i s e d t h e p r e v io u s
10

C h a ir, C h a ir p e r s o n o f P R A S A a n d th e B o a r d t h a t h e i n t e n d e d n o t t o
r e n e w h is c o n tr a c t w h e n i t e n d e d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y c a n I j u s t – th is i s j u s t f o r r e c o r d I a m n o t
w a n ti n g to in t e r r u p t y o u .

W h e n y o u s a y th e p r e v i o u s C h a ir p e r s o n o f

the Board who was that?
MR MOL EFE: The previous Chairperson of the Board at that point had
b e e n M r S fi s o B u th e le z i . I t h i n k h e i s c u r r e n t ly o n e o f t h e M i n i s te r s in
t h e c u r r e n t g o v e r n m e n t – D e p u ty M in is t e r s i n th e c u r r e n t g o v e r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u w e r e s a y i n g i n r e s p o n s e ja . Yo u w e r e s a y i n g
in r e s p o n s e t o t h is .
20

M R M O L E F E : M y e n d r e s p o n s e t o w h a t M r M o n t a n a s a i d to m e , I s a id
w e ll y o u k n o w w e c o m e i n a t a ti m e w h e n P R A S A i s u n d e r ta k i n g a m a jo r
c a r r y i n g o u t a m a j o r p r o g r a m m e o f m o b i li s a ti o n a n d th e r e fo r e t h e n e w
B o a r d w o u l d n e e d y o u t o s ta y o n a n d p r o v i d e l e a d e r s h ip t o t h e
m a n a g e m e n t t e a m a s w e p r o c e e d t o e x e c u t e t h is i m p o r t a n t p r o g r a m m e .
A n d w e g o t in t h e r e s a y in g w h a t w e s a id u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t i n t h e fir s t

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in s t a n c e o u r c o m m i t m e n t a s t h e d ir e c t o r s w a s to s u p p o r t t h e e x e c u t iv e
m a n a g e m e n t t e a m w h o w e r e e s s e n t ia lly t h e o p e r a ti o n a l p e o p l e i n th e
business.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d j u s t i n b r i e f M r M o l e fe w h a t d id th a t

m o d e r n is a ti o n p r o g r a m m e in v o lv e , w h a t p e r i o d w o u l d i t ta k e a n d w h a t
w a s t h e a m o u n t t h a t w o u l d b e e v e n t u a l ly s p e n t ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e m o d e r n i s a t io n p r o g r a m m e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s a

p r o g r a m m e i n t e n d e d to r e v i t a l is e th e r a i l s y s te m i n S o u t h A fr ic a w h ic h
h a d s u ff e r e d
10

a neglect of over 40 years where there was no

c a p i t a l is a ti o n b o th in t e r m s i t s i n fr a s tr u c tu r e a s w e ll a s t h e l o c o m o tiv e s
a n d t h e c o a c h e s f o r t r a in s .

F o r a l o n g ti m e P R A S A w a s r e l y i n g o n

a tt e m p ts to fix th e – p a r ti c u la r ly th e M e t r o r a i l w h ic h w a s f a i li n g a l l t h e
ti m e .

A n o t h e r e l e m e n t o f m o d e r n i s a t io n in c l u d e d t h e i n s t a l la t io n a n d

r o l l o u t o f s ig n a l li n g s y s t e ms . A n d i n t h i s r e g a r d th e r e w e r e e s s e n t ia lly
three major contracts.

O n e r o l l e d o u t in K w a Zu l u N a t a l le d b y a

C a n a d i a n c o m p a n y c a l le d B o m b a r d i a Tr a n s p o r t . I n t h e W e s te r n C a p e i t
w a s Ta lis A fr ic a w i t h a b l a c k p a r tn e r t h e r e a n d t h e n h e r e i n t h e G a u te n g
P r o v i n c e i t w a s S e a m a n s w h e r e t h e m a i n n e r v e c e n tr e f o r C o m m a n d
a n d C o n tr o l w a s e s t a b li s h e d i n I t h i n k i n K a lk fo n t e i n . S o th a t w a s t h e
20

m o d e r n is a ti o n p r o g r a m m e b u t i t w o u l d h a v e a ls o e n t a i le d m a n u f a c t u r in g
o f n e w l o c o m o t iv e s , t h e tr a in s , n e w tr a i n s , s ta t e o f th e a r t tr a i n s . 2 0 o f
e a c h w e r e i n i ti a lly t o b e p r o c u r e d f r o m B r a z i l a n d h e r e i n S o u t h A fr ic a
in o r d e r t o e n s u r e t h a t t h is p r o c u r e m e n t l e a d s to c r e a ti o n o f j o b s a n d
it s s ti m u l a t e s g r o w th in t h e e c o n o m y a f a c t o r y w a s to b e b u il t in a p l a c e
c a l l e d D a n o t a i n N i g e l . Va r i o u s r a i l w a y s t a ti o n s w e r e to b e r e n o v a t e d .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A lo t o f e x p e n d i tu r e g o i n i t a n d b e c a u s e n e w tr a i n s w e r e g o i n g to b e
procured

it was

c r i t ic a l

that

they

should

be

d e p o ts

that

were

m o d e r n is e d a n d t h e k e y o n e s I th in k t h e r e w a s o n e i n Br a a m f o n t e i n
a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r h e r e . O n e w a s W o l m e r t o n a n d t h e n t h e r e w o u ld b e
o n e in t h e – t h e W e s t e r n C a p e .

A ll o f t h o s e i n v o l v e d a l o t o f

in v e s t m e n t . O v e r a l l t h e p r o g r a m m e o f m o d e r n is a ti o n w a s e s ti m a t e d t o
c o s t R 1 7 2 b il li o n o v e r 4 0 y e a r s . S o i t is t h is k in d o f a p r o g r a m m e t h a t
P R A S A h a d t o i m p l e m e n t a n d t h e B o a r d o f C o n tr o l o f P R A S A h a d t o
e x e r c is e o v e r s i g h t o v e r i t .
10

A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o in M r M o l e f e b e fo r e y o u o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M r S o n i . Yo u m i g h t h a v e t o r a i s e y o u r

v o i c e . I a m j u s t w a n t i n g t o m a k e s u r e e v e r y b o d y c a n h e a r e v e r y b o d y.
J a . O k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

T h e s e w e r e q u i te a m b i ti o u s p r o g r a m m e s a n d s o

o n . W h o h a d d e v is e d t h o s e p r o g r a m m e s ? Wa s i t y o u r b o a r d o r w a s i t
y o u r b o a r d th a t w a s g o in g t o – h a d i n h e r i t e d th e s e p r o g r a m m e s i f I c a n
c a l l i t th a t ?
M R M O L E F E : C h a ir p e r s o n i n d e e d th e s e w e r e a m b i ti o u s a n d e x c i ti n g a
p r o g r a m m e t h is is p r e c i s e ly f o r t h a t r e a s o n th a t w e f o u n d b e i n g o n th e
20

B o a r d o f P R A S A a t t h a t h is t o r i c m o m e n t t o h a v e b e e n v e r y a t tr a c ti v e .
N o w w h o d e s i g n e d th e m ? T h is w a s a d e c is i o n t a k e n b y t h e c a b i n e t o f
t h e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A fr ic a a n d I – I m u s t s a y t h a t C h a ir p e r s o 0 n i t w a s
n o t o n ly a b o u t P R A S A i t i n c lu d e d a l s o Tr a n s n e t w h ic h b e c a m e a
s e p a r a t e l o g is ti c s b u s i n e s s a f t e r t h e u n b u n d li n g o f t h e p r e v io u s
s tr u c t u r e o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t . S o i t w a s a g o v e r n m e n t p r o g r a m m e .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w y o u m e n ti o n e d a n u m b e r o f p r o g r a m m e s . A t
t h e t i m e th e b o a r d to o k o v e r o f a s s u m e d o ffic e w h a t w a s th e s t a t e o f
t h e c o n tr a c ts i n r e l a t i o n t o t h i s m o d e r n – th e fir s t p h a s e o f t h e
m o d e r n is a ti o n p r o g r a m m e ?
MR MOLEFE:

M o s t i f n o t a ll C h a ir p e r s o n t h e c o n tr a c ts h a d a lr e a d y

b e e n c o n c l u d e d , s i g n e d w i th v a r i o u s o r i g i n a l e q u ip m e n t m a n u f a c t u r e r s
a s w e ll a s o t h e r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s .

I h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h o s e t h a t w e r e

r o l li n g o u t s i g n a l li n g s y s te m s . T h e – th o s e c o n t r a c t s h a d a lr e a d y b e e n
c o n c l u d e d a n d t o b e m o r e s p e c if ic w i t h r e g a r d to th e l o c o m o ti v e s a
10

c o n tr a c t h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d w i t h a c o m p a n y c a ll e d S w i f a m b o w h i c h
w a s a S o u th A f r i c a n c o m p a n y w h i c h l a t e r w a s t o p a r t n e r w i t h Vo s s l o h .
I s a y l a t e r a d v is e d ly b e c a u s e a t t h e t i m e w h e n th is c o n t r a c t w a s
a w a r d e d S w i f a m b o w h ic h h a d n o e x p e r i e n c e i n r a il e i t h e r le a s in g o r
o p e r a ti o n d id n o t h a v e a s u b - c o n tr a c t w i t h Vo s s lo h w h ic h h a d th e
c a p a c i ty t o m a n u f a c t u r e t h e l o c o m o tiv e s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . A n d a s f a r a s t h e b o a r d w a s c o n c e r n e d w h a t
s t e p s d i d i t t a k e i n r e l a ti o n t o th o s e c o n tr a c ts ?
M R M O L E F E : A s a n e w B o a r d C h a i r p e r s o n i n o r d e r f o r u s t o e x e r c is e a
proper oversight we –

20

we

fe l t d u ty

b o u n d to

a s k f o r d e t a i le d

p r e s e n t a ti o n o n t h e c o n tr a c t b y t h e G r o u p C E O a n d h is e x e c u tiv e t e a m
b u t w e a ls o t h e n r e q u e s te d t h e a c t u a l c o n tr a c t – c o n tr a c t s o t h a t w e
c o u l d s e e p r e c is e ly w h a t t h e c o m p a n y w a s c o m m i t ti n g i t s e l f t o .

What

o b li g a ti o n s w e h a d i n r e s p e c t o f th o s e c o n t r a c ts .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . N o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o – I a m s o r r y. A r e y o u a b l e to g iv e a n in d ic a t i o n a s

Page 12 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
t o h o w m u c h i n t e r m s o f t h a t R 1 7 0 s o m e t h in g b il li o n o v e r 4 0 y e a r s th a t
w a s e s ti m a t e d t o b e r e q u ir e d f o r t h e w h o l e m o d e r n is a ti o n p r o g r a m m e .
A r e y o u a b le t o i n d ic a te a b o u t h o w m u c h – w h a t p e r c e n t a g e o f t h a t
m a y b e w a s a n t ic ip a t e d t o b e u s e d i n t h e n e x t te n y e a r s o r s o fr o m t h e
ti m e t h a t t h e p r o g r a m m e s t a r t e d o r f r o m t h e ti m e w h e n y o u r B o a r d
c a m e in ? W a s – a r e y o u a b l e t o g iv e a n i n d ic a ti o n w h e t h e r i t w a s 1 0 %
o f t h a t , 5 % o f th a t o v e r t h e n e x t X n u m b e r o f y e a r s ?
M R M O L E F E : C h a ir p e r s o n I m ig h t n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly b e a b l e t o s a y 1 0 %
b u t I k n o w t h a t o v e r th e – t h e – I t h in k t h e fir s t t e n y e a r s o r s o .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M O L E F E : T h e – t h e a m o u n t o f m o n e y t o b e s p e n t w a s R 5 1 b i ll i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. N o th a t i s h e l p f u l. T h a n k y o u .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w y o u s a y t h a t t h e – t h e c o n tr a c ts h a d a lr e a d y
b e e n c o n c l u d e d a n d y o u a s k e d t h e t h e n C E O t o – t o e x p l a i n m a t te r s t o
y o u a n d m a k e d e ta il e d p r e s e n ta t i o n s . W e r e t h o s e m a d e ?
M R M O L E F E : Th e p r e s e n ta t io n s w e r e m a d e i n r e s p e c t o f t h e b r ie f in g s
t h a t th e B o a r d h a d r e q u e s te d .
C o n tr o l

r e q u ir e d

the

a c tu a l

B u t to t h e e x t e n t th a t t h e B o a r d o f
c o n tr a c ts

in

terms

of

w h ic h

these

lo c o m o t iv e s p a r t ic u l a r ly a n d t h e tr a in s t h a t w e r e g o i n g t o b e b u i l t c a l le d
20

t h e G i b e l a C o n s o r t iu m l e d b y a c o m p a n y c a l l e d A l s t o m t h o s e w e r e n o t
g iv e n t o t h e B o a r d .

The Board had to in fact I led that to go to the

c o m p a n i e s a t t h e ti m e w e h a d b e e n a d v i s e d w e r e th e o n e s w h o a d v is e d
P R A S A o n t h e c o n tr a c t . T h e y d r a f te d t h e c o n tr a c ts a n d a d v is e d t h e m
o n th e s i g n i n g th e r e o f. M y r e c o ll e c t io n is t h a t t h e c o m p a n y i n q u e s t io n
at the time was Webber Wentzel.

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t is t h e l e g a l f ir m y o u m e a n ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e l e g a l f ir m t h a t w a s – e x t e r n a l l e g a l f ir m a d v is in g

PRASA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y t h e c o n t r a c ts w e r e n o t p r o v id e d t o t h e B o a r d .
I assume by the Group CEO?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d i d h e g iv e a r e a s o n – d id h e r e f u s e o r d i d h e j u s t
10

n o t p r o v i d e w i th o u t r e f u s in g a n d i f s o d i d t h e B o a r d n o t s a y, h e y w e
a s k e d f o r t h e c o n tr a c ts w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g ? W h e r e a r e t h e c o n tr a c ts ?
MR MOLEFE:

M e e t i n g a f t e r m e e ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n th e G C E O – G r o u p

C E O w a s r e m i n d e d t h a t th e B o a r d n e e d e d t h o s e c o n tr a c ts . T h e y w e r e
n o t f o r th c o m i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h e – h e w a s a ls o n o t fl a tly r e f u s in g b u t h e w a s

ju s t n o t p r o v id in g t h e m ?
MR MOLEF E: No he does not say no.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MOLEF E: But he does not provide.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : B u t I m u s t a ls o s a y t h a t o f c o u r s e d u r i n g th a t p e r i o d n o w
we were moving towards the time when he – we were beginning to deal
w i t h i s s u e s p e r t a i n i n g to t h e P u b li c Pr o te c t o r a n d t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a s
s a y in g n o w h e is n o t g o i n g t o r e n e w h is c o n tr a c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Page 14 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MOLEFE:

S o , ja .

CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u a b l e t o i n d ic a t e w h a t y o u th in k t h e r e a s o n

w a s w h y d e s p i t e th e B o a r d r e q u e s t i n g t h a t t h e s e c o n t r a c t s b e p r o v i d e d
t o t h e m a n d r e q u e s t in g r e p e a t e d ly, th e y w e r e n o t b e i n g p r o v i d e d o r i s
t h e r e s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u h a v e n ’ t – y o u ’r e n o t a b l e t o s a y.

I t ’s j u s t

s tr a n g e th a t G r o u p C E O w h o ’s a n s w e r a b le to t h e B o a r d is a s k e d t o
provide very important documents and over some time they are not
provided?
MR MOLEFE:
10

I w o u ld b e s p e c u l a ti n g i f I w e r e t o t a lk a b o u t w h a t t h e

reasons were.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

A ll I c a n s a y is t h a t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ].

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
e n g a g e m e n ts

They were not provided.
T h e y w e r e n o t p r o v i d e d a n d w h e n w e in i ti a te d
with

the

fi r m

of

buyers

that

did

the

c o n tr a c ts … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
W e s p e n t t i m e w i th th e m p r e s e n ti n g t o u s , th e G r o u p

C E O w a s v e r y a n g r y th a t w e w e n t d ir e c tl y to th o s e l a w y e r s t o a s k fo r
20

t h o s e c o n tr a c t s b e c a u s e w e d i d n ’ t s to p t h e r e , w e e v e n s a id , w e l l w e
w i ll a ls o a s k t h e C E O o f th e c o m p a n y th a t is m a n u f a c t u r i n g t h e t r a i n s t o
a ls o c o m e a n d p r e s e n t t o u s , t h a t ti m e i t w a s a m a n c a l le d M r G r a n g e r,
M a r k G r a n g e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y h e w a s u n h a p p y w i th w h a t t h e B o a r d

Page 15 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
w a n t e d , t h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , a n d th e B o a r d o n ly w e n t t o o t h e r s o u r c e s , o t h e r

p a r t i e s , w h e n t h e G r o u p C E O w a s – t h e y h a d f a il e d , o v e r s o m e ti m e , t o
f u r n is h th e c o n t r a c t s t o th e B o a r d .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

J u s t to c h e c k u p s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n

h a s r a is e d , y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t p r o m p ts t h a t s e r i e s o f q u e s t i o n s . Yo u
a r e th e B o a r d , t h e C E O r e p o r t s t o y o u , y o u c o m e in w i th t h e s e m u l ti
10

b i ll io n r a n d c o n tr a c ts o n th e t a b l e a s it w e r e , y o u a s k f o r th e c o n tr a c ts
a n d y o u ’r e n o t p r o v i d e d w i t h th e m a n d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e c l o u d t h a t
h a n g s o v e r th a t is s u e ?
MR MOLEFE:

W e ll I d o u n d e r s ta n d t h e c lo u d t h a t h a n g s o v e r t h e

is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I w o u ld i m a g in e th a t a t t h e a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e i n
t h e c o u r s e o f t h is e v i d e n c e w e w il l d e a l w i t h t h a t b u t w h a t w a s s t r a n g e ,
C h a ir p e r s o n , w a s th a t w i th t h is p a r t ic u l a r S t a te o w n e d c o m p a n y t h e
B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s d i d n ’ t s e e m t o i m m e d ia t e ly, a t t h a t s t a g e to h a v e t h e
k in d o f r e la t io n s h ip w h e r e t h e G r o u p C E O u n d e r s ta n d s t h a t w h e n t h e
B o a r d r e q u ir e s s o m e t h in g , w h i c h y o u k n o w y o u h a v e o r y o u k n o w w h e r e
20

t o f i n d , y o u g o g e t i t a n d g iv e i t t o t h e B o a r d a s p e r i t ’s r e q u e s t . I t h i n k
it ’s a n is s u e a b o u t , w h a t w a s t h e ir u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e p o w e r r e l a ti o n s
b e t w e e n th e G r o u p C E O a n d t h e B o a r d , w a s i t a s i tu a ti o n o f d u a l p o w e r
o r w a s t h e C E O u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t h e r e p o r t s t o th e B o a r d . S o th e s e
r e is s u e s t h a t a r e [ in d is ti n c t ] w h e n y o u c o m p a r e w i t h t h e p r iv a t e
c o m p a n i e s o r p u b l ic c o m p a n i e s w i t h t h e ir B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s .

Page 16 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll o f c o u r s e w e ’l l c o n t in u e w i th y o u r e v id e n c e , th a t

m a y b e b y t h e e n d o f y o u r e v i d e n c e m o r e li g h t o r p e r s p e c t iv e s w il l
e m e r g e . I t ’s j u s t t h a t it s e e m s s tr a n g e to m e b e c a u s e m y e x p e c t a t i o n
a n d m a y b e t h e e x p e c t a t i o n o f m a n y p e o p l e w o u l d b e t h a t w h e n th e r e is
a n e w B o a r d , w h e t h e r i t ’s a p r i v a t e s e c t o r o r p a r a s t a ta l th e c u r r e n t
G r o u p C E O w o u ld a c tu a l ly o ff e r t o th e B o a r d , C h a ir p e r s o n s a y, I a n d
m y te a m w il l b e r e a d y a s s o o n a s y o u a r e r e a d y f o r u s t o p r e s e n t to y o u
a n d g iv e y o u a fu ll p ic t u r e o f w h a t is h a p p e n in g a t t h e m o m e n t i n t h e
c o m p a n y a n d t h e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w o u l d i n d u e c o u r s e s a y, l e t ’s s a y
10

t h e d a t e , c o m e a n d b r i e f u s f u lly. S o o b v i o u s l y th e B o a r d w o u l d w a n t t o
k n o w w h a t c o m m i t m e n ts , i m p o r ta n t c o m m i t m e n ts d o e s t h e c o m p a n y
h a v e a n d i f y o u h a v e a p r o g r a m m e s u c h a s th e m o d e r n is a ti o n
p r o g r a m m e o b v io u s ly, t h e B o a r d w o u l d w a n t t o k n o w, w o u ld w a n t to s e e
t h e c o n tr a c ts a n d h a v e a f u ll p ic tu r e .

S o t h a t ’s m y e x p e c t a ti o n a n d

t h a t ’s w h y, m a y b e I a s k e d y o u t h e q u e s t i o n th a t I a s k e d y o u i n r e g a r d
t o a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e G r o u p C E O k n o w s y o u a r e n e w a s a B o a r d i n
t h is e n t i ty a n d y o u s p e c i fic a l ly a s k f o r d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e y a r e n o t
p r o v i d e d u n t il y o u h a v e t o g o o u ts i d e o f t h e c o m p a n y. S o I t h o u g h t I’ d
ju s t m e n ti o n t h a t c o n t e x t .
20

MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n i n t h e n o r m a l c o u r s e o f e v e n ts i n a n o r m a l

c o m p a n y th a t ’s w h a t h a p p e n s b u t I w a n t t o s e p a r a t e w h a t w e w o u l d c a ll
t h e in d u c ti o n o f th e B o a r d f r o m t h e c o n tr a c ts t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s .

Th e p r o c e s s o f i n d u c t io n d i d t a k e p l a c e .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

Page 17 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MOLEFE:

And the Group CEO Mr Montana, together with his

E x e c u t iv e t e a m le d th a t p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s .

W h e r e w e c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d fa il u r e s o n h is p a r t w a s ,

w h e n w e w a n t e d n o w t o s e e t h e a c t u a l c o n tr a c ts b e c a u s e a s a B o a r d o f
D ir e c t o r s i t is w e l l a n d g o o d t o s a y, y e s m a n a g e m e n t h a v e g iv e n
p r e s e n t a ti o n s th e y ’v e to l d u s w h a t t h e p r o g r a m m e o f m o d e r n i s a t io n
e n t a i ls a n d w h a t i s i ts s ta t u s , w h a t a r e t h e c r i ti c a l e l e m e n ts t h e r e o f b u t
y o u s ti ll w a n t o k n o w, w h a t d o t h e c o n tr a c t s c o m m i t u s t o a s a B o a r d o f
10

D ir e c t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o d e fi n i t e l y, p a r ti c u la r ly w h e n y o u ’r e t a l k i n g

about big amounts as the Board you should want to see that, thank you
M r S o n i?
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A s y o u p l e a s e M r C h a ir p e r s o n , a n d e s p e c i a l ly

g iv e n th e f a c t th a t i n t e r m s o f t h e P F M A t h e B o a r d i s th e a c c o u n t i n g
a u t h o r i ty.
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e B o a r d is t h e a c c o u n ti n g

a u t h o r i ty, w e

can’t say

to

th e

Ex e c u ti v e A u t h o r it y, th a t is

th e

s h a r e h o l d e r a n d t o t h e l e g is la t u r e t o w h i c h w e h a v e to a c c o u n t t h a t, n o
20

w e c a n ’t a c c o u n t b e c a u s e m a n a g e m e n t d i d n o t g iv e u s a r e p o r t , d i d n ’ t
g iv e u s a c o n t r a c t .

W e a r e o b l ig e d in t e r m s o f t h e P u b lic F i n a n c e

M a n a g e m e n t A c t to e x e r c is e fi d u c i a r y d u ty to e x e r c is e th e d u t y o f c a r e
a n d d i li g e n c e a s w e d e a l w i th t h e s e m a t t e r s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w a p o in t y o u m a d e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e p o w e r

r e l a ti o n s a n d s o i n , i t a p p e a r s to h a v e b e e n q u i t e a f l u i d s i t u a t io n

Page 18 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
b e c a u s e y o u th e n t a lk a b o u t a c h a l le n g e t h a t fa c e d t h e B o a r d in r e g a r d
t o t h e a u d i t r e p o r t . C a n y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t t h a t?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n b y S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 4 w h ic h i s a ti m e a t

w h ic h th e fi n a l a u d it a n d a n n u a l r e p o r t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n c l u d e d a n d
a c t u a ll y t a b l e d in P a r li a m e n t b y t h e M i n i s t e r s u b s e q u e n t t o w h i c h t h e
B o a r d w o u ld b e r e q u ir e d to a p p e a r b e fo r e P a r l ia m e n t t o a n s w e r
q u e s t io n s . P R A S A a t t h a t t i m e w a s n o t r e a d y th e r e w e r e m a n y q u e r ie s
fr o m t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l r e g a r d i n g th a t , a n d I r e c a ll p r e t ty w e l l t h a t b y
S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 4 , w h ic h is r e a l ly j u s t a m o n th a f te r I h a d b e e n
10

a p p o i n t e d C h a ir m a n o f th e B o a r d , I w a s i n v i t e d b y t h e G r o u p C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e to a t t e n d t o e v e n ts i n E u r o p e . T h e f ir s t o n e w a s M u f e x w h i c h
w a s a c o n f e r e n c e o f r a i l o r g a n i s a t io n s a n d t h a t o n e w a s h e l d i n M a d r id
a n d t h e s e c o n d o n e w a s t h e b ia n n u a l g l o b a l a n d t h e b i g g e s t e x h ib i ti o n
r a i l o r e x h ib i ti o n b e i n g o r g a n is e d a n d h o s t e d b y D e u ts c h e B a h n w h i c h
is a G e r m a n r a il o r g a n is a ti o n . S o I w a s i n v i t e d to t h a t , t h e G C E a n d I ,
G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u ti v e O ff ic e r a n d I h a d t o r e tu r n h u r r i e d ly b e c a u s e t h e
a n n u a l f i n a n c ia ls h a d n o t b e e n c o n c l u d e d a n d w e h a d t o g o b a c k
q u ic k ly t o e n g a g e t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l ’s t e a m m a n a g e m e n t t o tr y a n d
g e t t h e fi n a n c e s i n o r d e r.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

So you had – both of you had already left and you

h a d to c o m e b a c k ?
MR MOLEFE:

J a b u t to c l a r i fy m a t t e r s , C h a ir p e r s o n , th e G r o u p C E O

w o u ld h a v e k n o w n t h a t t h e fi n a n c i a l s h a d n o t b e e n c o n c l u d e , i t ’s n o t
lik e w e o n l y d is c o v e r e d w h e n w e w e r e o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y.

We were

s a y in g w e c a n ’ t s t a y lo n g e r b e c a u s e w e ’v e g o t t o g o b a c k a n d g e t o u r

Page 19 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
h o u s e i n o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s o k a y a lr i g h t .

B e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d , I ju s t

w a n t u s to c o n c l u d e t h e is s u e o f y o u o r y o u r B o a r d tr y i n g to g e t t h e
c o n tr a c ts . Yo u s p o k e to W e b b e r W e n tz e l t h e y d i d a p r e s e n ta t io n a n d I
t h i n k y o u s a i d s o m e b o d y e ls e d i d a p r e s e n ta t io n . U l ti m a t e ly w e r e y o u
a b l e t o h a v e c o p i e s o f a ll th e c o n tr a c ts th a t y o u w a n t e d ?
MR MOLEFE:

W e n e v e r g o t t h e c o n t r a c t s t o b e g iv e n to u s b u t i t w a s

through our consent.

T h e y s a i d t h e y ’d g i v e n P R A S A t h e c o n tr a c t b u t

w h a t t h e y h a d w a s t h e ir o w n c o p y a n d w e w e r e s a ti s f i e d , h a v in g s p e n t
10

lik e , h a l f a d a y w i th th e m d is c u s s i n g t h o s e c o n tr a c ts a n d g e t ti n g t h e m
t o p r e s e n t t o u s t h a t w e h a d th e a s s u r a n c e t h a t t h i s b i g fir m o f l a w y e r s
h a d d o n e t h e c o r r e c t d o n e , t h e y h a v e d o n e th e b e s t th e y c o u l d t o
p r o t e c t t h e in t e r e s t o f P R A S A .

A c tu a l ly t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s l e a d i n g

t h e s e n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d t h e d r a f ti n g o f th e c o n tr a c t w a s a n e x p e r ie n c e d
f o r m e r – e x p e r ie n c e l a w y e r w h o h a d w o r k e d i n r a il i n t h e U K a n d o t h e r
p a r t o f t h e w o r l d , h e u n d e r s to o d t h e c o m p l e x i t ie s o f t h e s e c o n tr a c ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – b u t a r e y o u s a y i n g th a t th e y d i d a p r e s e n ta t io n

b u t d i d n ’ t g iv e y o u , a s t h e B o a r d , c o p ie s o f th e c o n t r a c t s ?
MR MOLEFE:
20

W e d i d n ’ t t a k e c o p i e s o f t h e c o n tr a c t , w e a c c e p t e d th a t

if w e w a n t t h e m w e c a n g o a n d g e t th e m a t th e fir m o f a tt o r n e y s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y b u t d i d y o u g e t to k n o w, lik e h o w m a n y

c o n tr a c ts h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d w i th w h o m t h e y h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d a n d
what the value of each one was, all of that, maybe through the
p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
MR MOLEFE:

In r e s p e c t o f t h is c o n tr a c t I th in k o u r m a i n fo c u s w a s o n

Page 20 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
t h e – a n d I m u s t c o m e b a c k t o t h is p o i n t , w a s o n t h e R 5 1 b i ll io n w h ic h
w a s b e i n g a ll o c a t e d f o r t h e m a n u f a c t u r i n g o f t h e n e w tr a i n s . I s h o u l d
h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f th e lo c o m o t iv e s w a s o u ts id e t h e
R 5 1 b i ll io n , th a t o n e w a s in t h e r e g i o n o f R 3 .4 b i ll i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , o k a y s o w o u l d i t t h e n b e c o r r e c t f o r m e t o

c o n c l u d e f r o m y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t a f te r W e b b e r W e n tz e l h a d m a d e t h e ir
p r e s e n t a ti o n y o u w e r e s a ti s fi e d t h a t t h e y h a d th e i r p r e s e n ta t io n s h a d
in c l u d e d t e l li n g y o u a l l t h e c o n t r a c t s t h a t t h e y w e r e t e l li n g y o u a b o u t ,
a l l t h e c o n tr a c ts t h a t t h e y w e r e a w a r e o f r e l a ti n g t o P R A S A i n w h ic h
10

t h e y h a d b e e n – w h ic h th e y h a d d r a f te d b u t y o u a r e n o t s u r e a s t o h o w
m a n y c o n tr a c ts th e r e h a d b e e n – th a t h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d t h a t fe ll
u n d e r th e m o d e r n is a ti o n p r o g r a m m e a lr e a d y a n d I a c c e p t t h a t y o u
m i g h t n o t b e w a n ti n g t o s e e e v e r y s m a ll c o n tr a c t y o u w o u ld b e
in t e r e s te d in b ig o n e s , b u t w o u l d i t b e fa i r t o m a k e t h a t c o n c l u s io n o r
n o t r e a l ly ?
MR MOLEFE:

I t w o u l d b e f a i r to s a y, C h a ir p e r s o n , t h a t w e d i d n o t

k n o w a b o u t t h e r e s t o f t h e c o n tr a c t, a n d I m u s t h a s t e n t o s a y, w h e r e a s
Webber

Wentzel advised

PRASA on

the

Gibela

programme, the

m a n u f a c t u r in g o f t h e tr a i n s , t h e y d id n o t s e e m t o b e i n v o l v e d i n a n y
20

o th e r c o n tr a c t .

T h e r e s t o f t h e c o n tr a c ts w e r e d o n e b y d i ff e r e n t la w

fir m s , s m a ll o n e s a n d s o o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, s o t h e o n e o n w h ic h t h e y h a d b e e n in v o lv e d

w a s h e G i b e l a – t h a t ’s t h e R 5 1 b il li o n o n e ?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s t h e R 5 1 b il li o n e o n e .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

Page 21 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M a y I ju s t a s k to c o n c l u d e i n r e l a t io n t o t h e

p r e s e n t a ti o n b y W e b b e r W e n tz e l , w a s t h e C E O , M r M o n t a n a p r e s e n t a t
t h a t p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
MR MOLEFE:

N o h e w a s n o t . H e w a s n o t b e c a u s e a t t h a t s ta g e i t w a s

a lr e a d y c l e a r t o u s t h a t h e w a s n o t k e e n to s h a r e w i t h th e B o a r d a l l
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e B o a r d r e q u i r e d a n d i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll a t t h a t t i m e
h e w a s n o t e v e n a t th e o ff ic e o f t h e c o m p a n y w h e n t h e B o a r d w a n t e d
t h a t p r e s e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o th e n s a y t h a t , a s f a r a s y o u

a r e c o n c e r n e d b y t h e ti m e o f t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s m a d e b y
W e b b e r W e n tz e l t o y o u r B o a r d i t w a s c l e a r t o y o u t h a t M r M o n t a n a ’s
f a il u r e

to

provide

th e

Board

with

c o n tr a c ts

was

based

on

h is

u n p r e p a r e d n e s s t o p r o v i d e t h e B o a r d i t w a s n o t a n y th i n g e ls e , h e w a s
s i m p l y n o t p r e p a r e d t o p r o v i d e t h e m o r is t h a t b e i n g u n f a ir t o h i m ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e c o u ld b e t w o r e a s o n s t h a t – b u t h e d i d n ’ t e v e n

n e e d t o b e – o r u n p r e p a r e d n e s s m e a n s u n w i ll in g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

U n p r e p a r e d n e s s m e a n s u n w il li n g y e s .
J a i t c o u ld b e th a t h e w a s u n w il li n g , s e c o n d ly i t c o u l d

b e th a t h e f e l t b u t, y o u a r e th e B o a r d o f D i r e c t o r s w h y – t h i s i s a n
20

o p e r a ti o n a l m a t t e r w h y d o y o u i n t e r fe r e a n d t h a t , p r o b a b ly, w o u l d
e x p l a i n w h y h e m a d e a b i g is s u e o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e B o a r d w e n t a n d
m e t w i t h th e f ir m o f a t t o r n e y s t h a t w a s a d v is in g P R A S A . O r d i n a r il y h e
w o u ld h a v e s a i d , o k a y y o u ’ v e s e e n th e m w e ll w e h o p e t h a t n o w y o u
u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r o g r a m m e b e tt e r t h a n b e f o r e b u t t h a t w a s n o t t h e
a tt i tu d e o f t h e G r o u p C E O .

Page 22 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll i t s e e m s to m e t h a t – y o u s a id i t c o u l d b e o n e o f

t w o r e a s o n s , i t s e e ms t o m e t h a t i n e it h e r c a s e i t ’s u n w i ll in g n e s s to s a y
t h is , h e i s n o t p r e p a r e d – w a s n o t p r e p a r e d , a t l e a s t th a t ’s h o w y o u s a w
it , th a t ’s w h a t I w a n t t o c o n fi r m th a t , t h a t ’s h o w y o u s a w i t t h a t h e w a s
u n p r e p a r e d t o g iv e t h e s e c o n tr a c ts o r s h a r e s o m e o t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n
w i t h t h e B o a r d t h a t th e B o a r d w a n te d a n d w h e n y o u l o o k a t w h y h e
m i g h t n o t h a v e w a n te d to s h a r e t h e i n f o r m a ti o n , th e n i t m a y b e t h a t h e
t h o u g h t i t’s o p e r a ti o n a l a n d th e B o a r d s h o u l d h a v e n o th i n g t o d o w it h it .
W o u l d t h a t b e a f a ir s u m m a r y o f w h a t y o u t h o u g h t b y th e t i m e o f th e
10

p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , I m a y a l s o w a n t t o l o c a t e i t

w i t h i n th e c o n t e x t o f o t h e r d e v e l o p m e n t s a t th a t t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
I th i n k w e w o u ld p r o b a b l y r e t u r n t o t h i s m a t t e r in th e

evidence, two things had happened.

It was a disagreement we had,

h a d w i t h t h e G r o u p C E O r e g a r d i n g t h e c o n tr a c ts t h a t t h e y h a d a w a r d e d
in r e s p e c t o f t h e B r a a m f o n te i n d e p o t m o d e r n is a ti o n , t h e r a i l a n d
t u r n o u ts p r o c u r e m e n t , i t is a l s o p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e la t e r o n .

The

s e c o n d o n e w a s t h e f a c t t h a t w e r a is e d e a c h is s u e w i t h h a v i n g t o h e a r
20

fr o m t h e m e d i a th a t P R A S A h a d b e e n g i v e n a n i n te r i m r e p o r t w h i c h
in c l u d e d a n u m b e r o f q u e s t i o n s th a t th e c o m p a n y h a d t o r e s p o n d t o ,
a n d i t c a m e fr o m t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w h i c h t h e B o a r d w a s n o t
p r e s e n t e d w i t h a n d t h i s n o w, t h e s i t u a t io n a r o u n d m u c h w h e n w e s t ill
a s k in g fo r t h a t r e p o r t a n d i t i s a t t h a t ti m e a f te r t h e s e t w o e v e n t s
h a p p e n e d , 2 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d t h i s m a t te r o f th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r ’s

Page 23 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
in t e r i m r e p o r t w h i c h I h a d d i s c u s s e d w i th t h e G r o u p C E O t h a t a t t h a t
p o i n t i n ti m e h e s a y s , I’ m n o t r e n e w i n g m y c o n tr a c t b u t I ’ m h a p p y t o
s e r v e s ix m o n t h s w h il s t y o u a r e s e a r c h i n g f o r a n e w G r o u p C E O b u t t h e
a tt i tu d e

th a t t i m e a l s o c h a n g e s a s w e w i ll s h o w i n t h e e v i d e n c e th a t

in c r e a s i n g ly th e B o a r d w a s g e t t in g a n in d ic a t io n t h a t th e G C E f o r th a t
p e r i o d – G C E O f o r t h a t p e r io d , G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r f o r t h a t
p e r i o d , M r M o n ta n a d i d n o t c o n s i d e r h i m s e l f f u l ly a c c o u n t a b l e to t h e
Board.

H e a c tu a lly w a s b e g in n i n g to q u e s ti o n t h e i n te g r it y a n d th e

v a l i d i ty o f t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e B o a r d a n d o n e o f t h e k e y is s u e s h e
10

r a i s e d i n h is m a n y c o m p la i n t s w a s t h a t h e w a s n o t c o n s u l t e d w h e n t h e
new Board was appointed.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e , w i t h r e g a r d to t h e t w o

d e v e l o p m e n ts t h a t y o u h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t , I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e th a t
you – that they happened before the Webber Wentzel presentation
b e c a u s e m y q u e s ti o n w a s m o r e o n t h e q u e s t io n o n w h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d
o r th o u g h t t o b e t h e p o s i ti o n a s f a r a s t h e G r o u p C E O w a s c o n c e r n e d a t
that time.

D i d t h e t w o e v e n t s o r d e v e l o p m e n t h a p p e n b e f o r e th e

W e b b e r W e n tz e l p r e s e n ta t io n o r a f t e r ?
MR MOLEFE:
20

W e ll c e r t a i n l y t h e fi r s t e v e n t o f N o v e m b e r b u t I d o

b e li e v e th a t t h e s e c o n d o n e a l s o h a p p e d b e f o r e t h e W e b b e r W e n tz e l
e n g a g e m e n t b e c a u s e i t to o k t i m e , f o r u s w a i ti n g fo r t h e c o n tr a c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

Ja.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u s a y, M r M o le f e , t h a t

t h e r e w e r e tw o w a r r i n g a s p e c ts i n r e g a r d t o th e a u d i t s t a te o f P R A S A

Page 24 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
a n d y o u r e f e r to tw o s e p a r a te a m o u n ts a n d y o u a n n e x th e a u d i t r e p o r t ,
d o y o u w a n t t o d e a l w it h t h a t q u ic k ly ?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n th e a u d i t r e p o r t o f th e y e a r 2 0 1 4 / 2 0 1 5 b y

t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l r e c o r d e d th a t t h e r e w a s a n ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d it u r e o f
o v e r R 5 0 0 m ill i o n w h ic h i n p r e c is e te r ms I th in k i t w a s R 5 5 0 m i lli o n a n d
q u e r ie s a r is i n g o u t o f t h e r e p o r t p r o j e c t e d , a ls o t h a t t h e fo ll o w i n g
fi n a n c i a l y e a r t h e ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e w o u l d b e in t h e r e g i o n o f
R 8 b il li o n . Th e r e s p o n s e o f th e B o a r d w a s t o d ir e c t t h e A u d i t a n d R is k
C o m m i t t e e t o h a v e a s p e c i a l w o r k s h o p t h a t w a s g o i n g to i n te r r o g a te
10

w h a t w e n t w r o n g t o a s s e s s w h a t c o u l d b e d o n e to f ix t h e s e w r o n g s .
T h e c o n c l u s io n s o f t h e A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e w a s th a t li t e r a l ly a l l
t h e d e p a r t m e n t s o f P R A S A , e s p e c i a lly t h e f in a n c e f u n c ti o n w e r e
d y s f u n c ti o n a l a n d t h a t t h e p e o p l e i n t h o s e p o s i ti o n s ju s t d id n o t h a v e
r e q u is it e s k i lls a n d t h e r e f o r e th e y w e r e u n a b l e to d is c h a r g e t h e ir
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a s t h e y w e r e r e q u ir e d b u t a ls o t h e A u d it a n d R i s k
C o m m i t t e e d i d n ’ t o n ly t a lk a b o u t d y s fu n c t io n a l , i t e m p h a s is e d t h e f a c t
that

th e r e

were

no

c o n tr o ls

as

well

within

th e

o r g a n is a ti o n .

F u n d a m e n ta ll y w h a t it m e a n t w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e s a y i n g t h a t t h i s
o r g a n i s a t io n w a s b r o k e n , a lo t o f w o r k h a s t o b e d o n e t o f ix it .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h i s w a s n o w t h e r is k – t h e A u d i t a n d R i s k

Committee of your Board.
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

CHAIRPERSON:

And there would have been an Audit and Risk

C o m m i t t e e u n d e r t h e p r e v i o u s B o a r d , d i d y o u g e t t o u n d e r s t a n d fr o m
t h e r e p o r t o f t h e A u d i t a n d R i s k C o m m i t t e e u n d e r y o u r B o a r d th a t t h is

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
fi n d i n g th e y w e r e m a k i n g , n a m e ly t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o c o n tr o ls r e f l e c te d
t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n n o c o n tr o ls f o r q u i t e s o m e t i m e o r th a t t h e r e w a s –
t h is w a s a n e w th i n g ? I ’ m tr y in g to s e e w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y h a d n ’ t d o n e
t h e ir j o b f o r s o m e ti m e a n d th a t ’s w h y t h e r e w e r e t h e s e c h a ll e n g e s o r
w h e t h e r i t w a s s o m e t h i n g n e w.
MR MOLEFE:

I , a t th is s t a g e w o u l d n o t b e p r iv y to w h a t th e p r e v i o u s

A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e , t h e o n e b e fo r e m y B o a r d h a d f o u n d .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
10

Ye s .
B u t I a m a w a r e , i t’s s o m e t h i n g I w a n t t o s te e r c l e a r o f

t h a t in t h e c o u r s e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s c o n d u c t e d o n t h e [ i n d is ti n c t ]
w i t h i n P R A S A i t w a s c l e a r t h a t s o m e m e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d h a d r a id e d
r e d f la g s a b o u t c e r ta in c o n tr a c ts , a n d o n e o f t h o s e w a s t h is o n e o f th e
lo c o m o t iv e s e v e n b e f o r e w e c a m e in , j a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

J u s t , M r M o l e fe , j u s t t o a t t e m p t t o ti e in t h e

a n n e x u r e s w i th th e e v i d e n c e y o u ’v e l e d , y o u r e f e r, in r e g a r d t o t h o s e
t w o a m o u n ts y o u r e f e r r e d t o , t h e R 5 0 0 m il l io n in p a r a g r a p h 1 6 a n d t h e n
R 8 b il li o n , c a n I j u s t a s k y o u t o lo o k a t P M 2 s o t h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n ,
w h e n h e ’s l o o k in g a t t h e r e p o r t w o u l d k n o w, p r e c is e l y w h e r e t o lo o k a t
20

a n d a s k y o u … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d P M 2 w o u l d b e a t p a g e 3 4 i f y o u lo o k a t th e r e d

p a g e n u m b e r s a t t h e to p r i g h t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
C H A IR PER SO N:

A s y o u p l e a s e C h a ir p e r s o n P M 2 .

Yo u mig h t r e c a ll fr o m y o u r p r e v iou s e n ga g e me n ts th a t

w e d o n o t me n tio n th e z e r o b e fo r e th e n u mb e r.

Page 26 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MO LEFE:

Bu t P b u t w h e r e d o I s ee th e P? O h , o k a y th a nk s . Th a nk

you.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Ma y I a s k y o u to tu r n to p a g e 3 8 ? Th e 3 8 b e in g th e

n u mb e r o n th e to p .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MO LEFE:

So , y o u d is r e g a rd th e z er o .

I am on page 38.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:
10

3 8 . Ye s .

O h o k a y, a lr ig h t.

Ye s , I h a v e fo u n d it o n PM( 2 )

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Ye s . So , if y o u lo o k a t p a r a g r a ph 1 0 if y o u co u ld

ju s t r e a d th a t in to th e r e c o r d , p le a s e ?
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ma y b e Mr So n i y o u c a n ju s t r e p e a t w h a t th is d o c u me n t

is fir s t s o y o u c a n a sk th e w itn e s s to id e n tify th e d o c u me n t b e fo r e h e
r e a d s fr o m it.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Oh, yes.

Ye s .

Fir s t o f a ll, Mr Mo le fe w ill y o u

p le a s e te ll th e C h a ir p e rs o n wh a t th is d o c u me n t is .
MR MO LEFE:

C h a ir p e rs o n PM( 2 ) is th e Aud ito r s G e n e ra l R e p o r t.

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:
20

PM( 2 ) ?

Th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n fo r w h ic h fin a n c ia l y e a r ?

Fo r 2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 5 fin a n c ia l y e ar.

C H A IR PER SO N :

O k a y, th a n k y o u . An d th e n y o u c a n r e ad p a r a gr a p h 1 0

at page 38.
MR MO LEFE :

Th e r e le v a n t p a r a g r a ph a n d I q u o te C h a ir p e rs o n r e a ds a s

fo llo w s a n d th a t is p a r a g r ap h 1 0 s ay s :
“As d is c lo s e d in th e n o te (x x) to th e fin a n c ia l
s ta te me n ts th e c a p ita l c o mmit me n t fo r th e p u r c h a se

Page 27 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
of

R o llin g

S to c k

Fle e t

Renewal

p r o g ra mme

is

5 9 .6 b illio n w h ic h w as d is c los e d u nd e r e ve n ts a fte r
r e p o r tin g da te in 2 0 13 , 2 0 1 4 An n u a l Re p o r t a s
5 1 b illio n r a n d .”
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

So , w h a t is th e s ig n ific a n ce o f th a t in r e la tio n to th e

tw o fig u r e s y o u h a v e me n tio n e d in p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o f y o u r a ff id a v it?
R e me mb e r yo u s a y it w a s p r o je c te d to b e 8 b illio n r a n d mo r e th e fo llo w in g
year?
MR MO LEFE :
10

We ll w h a t I – w h a t I a m s a y in g C h a ir p e rs o n , is th a t if y o u

w e r e , a d d fo r e x a mp le 8 b ill io n r a n d to w h a t w a s r e p o r te d a s 5 1 b illio n
r a n d it w ill ta k e y o u to 5 9 b illio n , o f c ou r se it h a s so me s ix h u nd r e d o n
th e s id e .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s .

So , i t is th is p a r tic u la r a s pec t th a t r e fle c t th a t th a t a mo u n t

is n o t b e in g p r o p e r ly a cc o u n te d fo r.
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s .

Is th e r e a s u g g e s tio n h e r e a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d

th is p a r a g r a ph o f a n y, o f s o me mis r e p r e se n ta tio n th a t ma y h a v e b e e n
ma d e o r n o t r e a lly ? Th a t is , le t u s h o w y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t p a r a gr a p h?
MR
20

MO LEFE:

One

can

s u mma r ize

th at

but

what

is

q u ite

c le a r

C h a ir p er so n is th a t th e r e is a d is ju n c tu re b e tw e e n w h a t is s e t o u t a s a
w h a t th e r e n e w a l p ro g r a mme o f th e r o llin g s to c k wo u ld c os t to p u r c h as e
th a t a n d w h a t th e n is d is c lo s e d to th e Au d it o r G e n e r a l. So , th e r e h a s n o t
b e e n a fu ll d is c lo s ur e to th e Au d ito r G e n e r a l th a t is w h a t i t me a n s .

C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

Th e n

Page 28 of 131

w h e th e r

or

n o t th a t w a s

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
in te n tio n a l, d e lib e r a te o r n o t th a t mig h t b e a n o th e r ma tte r.
MR MO LEFE:

It is a n o th e r ma tte r.

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

J a , b u t w h a t w a s d is c los ed w a s n o t th e c o r r ec t fig u r e ?

Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir p e rs o n .

C H A IR PER SO N :

J a , o k a y.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d th e d i ffe r e n c e b e tw e e n w h a t w a s d isc lo s ed a n d

w h a t th e r e a l fig u r e w a s , w a s 8 b illio n r a nd .
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir p e rs o n .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
10

Th e n , c a n I a s k y o u a t th e b o tto m o f th a t p a g e if

y o u co u ld lo ok a t p a ra g r ap h 1 4 p lea s e Mr Mo le fe a n d r e ad w h a t is th e
h e a d in g to th a t p a r a g r a p h?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e h e a d in g to th a t p a r a g r ap h C h a ir p er so n is :

“Ir r e g u la r Ex p e n d itu re .”
An d it is p a r a g r a p h 1 4 a n d a g a in if I q u o te i t s a y s :
“As d is c lo s e d in th e n o te (x x) to th e fin a n c ia l
s ta te me n ts th e a g e n c y in c ur r e d ir re g u la r exp e n d itu r e
to th e a mo u n t o f 5 5 0 millio n r a n d ”.
W h ic h is w ha t I h a v e r e fe r r e d to e a r lie r o n C h a ir p er so n .
“Ev id e n c e p r ov id e d c o n fir me d no n co mp lian c e w ith
20

s e c tio n 5 1 (1 ) p a r ag r a ph A ite m 3 a n d s e c t io n 5 1 ( 1 )
p a r a gr a p h B ite m 2 o f th e PFMA a n d the Ag e n c y
s u p p ly C h a in Ma n a g e me n t Po lic y.”
So , th e r e is n o c o mp lia n c e w ith th e PFMA , th e r e is n o c o mp lia n c e w ith
o u r o w n Su p p ly Ch a in Po lic y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d fo r ju s t th e r e c o r d w h e n a r e fer e n ce is ma d e to

Page 29 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
Ag e n c y w ha t is th e e n tity ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e Ag e n c y, C h a ir p e rs o n re fe r s to th e Pa s s e n g e r R a il

Ag e n c y kn o w n by th e a c r o ny m PR ASA.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

R ig h t. Th e n y o u s a y in a d d itio n to th is is s u e o f th e

– th e – th e a u d it, c o n c e r n s b e in g r a is ed a b o u t th e Au d it R e p o r t b y th e
Au d ito r G e n e r a l o r in h is Au d it R e p o r t. Yo u s a y th e r e w e re o th e r is s u es
th a t th e Bo a r d w a s c o nc e r n ed a b o u t, w h a t w e r e th o s e? Yo u r e fe r to th e m
in p a r a g r ap h 1 7 .
MR MO LEFE:
10

Th e – a t th e time w h e n th e Bo a r d to o k o ffic e C h a ir p e rs o n

w e fo u n d th a t a w h o le lo t o f p eo p le h ad e ith e r b e en s us p en d e d or
d is mis se d a n d th e d is c ip lin ar y p r oc e d ure o f th e c o mp a n y w a s n o t
fo llo w e d .

I t w a s o n e o f th e ma jo r p r o b le ms w e h a d .

An d in fa c t

fiv e h u n d r e d e mp loy e es o f a tr a d e u n io n th a t b r o k e a w ay fr o m th e So u th
Afr ic a n

Tr ad e

w o r ke rs

tr a d e

SATAW U

So u th Afr ic a n

Tr a d e

U n io n

[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Tr a n s p or t a n d Allie d Wo r k e rs U n io n .

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR
20

Tr a n s p or t a n d Allie d .

MO LEFE :

An d y o u s a id w o rk e rs o r me mb e r s o f a Tr a d e U n ion ?
N TM

w h ic h

is

a

N a t io n a l

Tr an s po r t

Mo v e me n t.

Fiv e h u n d re d o f th e m h a d b e e n d is mis s ed .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE :

Pa r t o f th a t U n io n .

O f th a t U n io n . Th e L a b o u r C o u r t h e ld th a t th e ir d is mis s a l

w a s ir r e gu la r a n d u n la w fu l a n d th a t th e y n e e d e d to b e r e in s ta te d . N o w
th is o c c as io n e d a n e n or mo u s pr o b le m fo r th e c o mp a ny b e c a us e s u dd e n ly
th e c o mp a n y h ad to fin d mo n e y to p a y th e s e p e o p le w h o h av e n o t b e e n a t

Page 30 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
w o r k fo r a lo n g time .

Th e y w e r e n o t r e ce iv in g th e ir s a la r ies a n d th e

r e in s ta te me n t me a n t th a t th e s itu a tio n h a d t o r e tu r n u n til - r e tu r n to w h a t
it w a s b e fo r e th e y w e r e s u s pe n d e d .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s .

So it w a s a b ig p r o b le m fo r th e c o mp a ny, a n d o f c o u rs e

r e g a rd le ss o f w h e th e r a t th e time i t w a s t h e G r o u p C EO w h o ma d e th e
d e c is ion , b u t, h e w a s th e u ltima te p e r s o n re s p o ns ib le a s th e C h ie f o f th e
Ad min is tr a tiv e fu n c tio n o f th e c o mp a n y.
C H A IR PER SO N :
10

D o y o u – d o yo u h av e , th e s e mig h t b e d e ta ils th a t y o u

mig h t n o t r e me mb e r, d o y o u r e me mb e r wha t k in d o f fig u r e s th e ba ck p a y
fo r th e fiv e h u n d r e d w o rk e rs , mo r e o r le s s w a s th a t th e c o mp a n y h a d to
fin d ?
MR MO LEFE:

C h a ir p e r s on , I w o u ld n o t r e me mb e r th e ac tu a l fig u r es

[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Bu t i t w a s a h u g e a mo u n t a s fa r a s y o u r ec a ll.

I ma y ju s t s a y th a t w h e n t h e s e th in g s we r e h a pp e n in g ,

w h e n th e r e in s ta te me n t w a s h a p p e n in g it w a s c lo s e to w h e n th e te r m o f
O ffic e o f my Bo a r d w a s g o in g to e n d .
C H A IR PER SO N :
20

MR MO LEFE:

We w e r e n o t a b le to g o in to t h e s e d e ta ils .

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

O h , w a s g o in g to e n d . Ye s .

Ye s .

W h a t I r e me mb e r is th a t I me t w i th th e le a d e r s o f th e

N a tio n a l Tra n s po r t Mo v e me n t to s a y a n d I mu s t s a y th a t w e th in k th a t w e
w e r e e s tima tin g th a t i t w ill c o s t u s o v e r in th e r e g io n o f fiv e h u n d r e d
millio n to r e in s ta te th a t , b u t i t is a n e s tima t i o n .

Page 31 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

J a , th a t w a s a n e s tima tio n .

Bu t – b u t – b u t I me t w ith th e le a d e rs o f th e U n ion to s ay ;

h e y g u ys y o u u n d e rs ta n d th a t th e c o mp a n y is in tr o u b le a n d w e h a v e to
r e s p ec t th e C o u r t ju d g men t, b u t c a n ’t w e a s p e o p le c o llec tiv e ly c o mmitte d
to ma k in g s ur e th a t th e c o mp a ny su c ce ed . Ag r e e o n n e g o tia tin g th e
a mo u n ts th a t th e c o mp a n y c a n a ffo r d ma y b e o v e r a n e x te n d e d p e r iod o f
time .
An d th e y w e r e w illin g to d o s o , b u t o f c o u rs e I a m n o t a n
o p e r a tio n a ls p e rs o n a n d a ga in o u r Hu man R e s o ur c es fu n c tio n in th e
10

c o mp a ny w as v er y p o or, w as w e ak .

I n e v e r g o t to k n ow w h e th er th a t

n e g o tia tio n w a s p u rs u e d a nd c o n c lu d e d .

Bu t o f c o u r s e if it b e c o me s

n e c es s ar y I a m s u r e th o s e le a d er s I s p ok e to a r e th e r e .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s .

An d s h o u ld th e C o mmis s ion r e q u ir e to a sk th e m to c o n fir m

w h a t I a m s a y in g I a m s u r e th e y w ill b e w illin g to d o s o .
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , a n d I a m s u r e th a t th e ju d g me n t o f th e c o u r t is

a ls o a v a ila b le s o me wh e r e . J a , o k a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w Mr Mo le fe e a r lie r y o u r e c a ll. Yo u w e r e s a y in g

to th e C h a ir p e rs o n th a t th e r e is d i ffe r e n c e b e tw e e n th e in d u c tio n o f th e
20

Bo a r d a n d th e n th e s u b s ta n tiv e me e tin gs th a t th e Bo a r d h a d .
I w o u ld lik e y o u to lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 8 a n d y o u s a y th e r e th a t
th e fir s t s u b s ta n tiv e me e tin g o f th e Bo a r d w a s in N o v e mb e r, c o u ld y o u
e x p la in to th e C h a ir p e rs o n h o w th a t c a me a b o u t. An d w h a t h a p p e n e d a t
th e me e tin g ?
C H A IR PER SO N:

I a m v e r y s o r ry to b o th o f y o u b e fo r e th a t q u e s tio n I

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w a n te d to a s k s o me th in g e ls e a r is in g fr o m th e p r e v iou s q u es tio n .
Yo u s a id th a t I th in k w h e n y o u r Bo a rd c ame in y o u fo u n d th a t
th e r e w e r e a n u mb er o f e mp lo y e e s w h o h ad b e e n s u s p en d e d o r d is mis s ed
a n d s o o n , a r e y o u a b le to g iv e me a n id e a th a t ma y b e a lth o u g h y o u mig h t
n o t b e a 1 0 0 p e r c e n t w h a t th e n u mb e r s we re th a t y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t,
a p a r t fr o m th a t g r o u p o f fiv e h u n dr e d or is th a t d iffic u lt b e c a u s e it h as
b e e n q u ite s o me time ?
MR MO LEFE:

My – my n u mb e r w o u ld n o t b e p r e c is e , b u t I k n o w th a t

th e r e w a s a n Ex ec u tiv e ca lle d C r o me t Mo lep o w h o a ls o h a d an e x te n d e d
10

... [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Su s p e n s io n a n d le ga l ... [in te r v e n es ].

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE :

Su s p e n s io n .

C h a lle n g e .

C h a lle n g e , th e o th e r s h a d s imp ly b e e n mo v e d fr o m w h e r e

th e y w e r e to o th e r p o s itio n s th e r e w as , a n d s o me o f th e m w e r e fo r c e d to
r e s ig n . I c a n ’t g iv e th e e x a c t n u mb e r b u t I me a n if I w a n t to d o th a t w e
w o u ld h a v e to g o b a c k to a n d fin d , tr y to fi n d s o me th in g fr o m th e r e c o r d s
o f th e c o mp a n y w h ic h I d o n o t h a v e a cc e ss to .
C H A IR PER SO N:
20

Ye s , y e s . J a . N o , n o th a t is fin e . I ju s t w a n t to h a v e

a n id e a w he th e r it w as s o me th in g s u bs ta n tia l b u t I g u e s s it w as
s o me th in g e n ou g h to c a us e th e Bo a rd c o nc e r n , a s to wh a t th e n u mb e rs
a r e b u t, w h a te v e r it w a s b u t it w a s e n o u g h to c a u s e yo u to b e c o n ce r n e d .
MR MO LEFE:

We ll – w e ll b y th e w a y C h a irp e r s on , fr o m o u r p o in t o f v ie w

it is n o t s o mu c h th e n u mb e r s ... [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s .

Page 33 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MO LEFE:

It is th e q u e s tio n w h e th er th e r e h a s b e e n fa irn e ss a n d

c o mp lia n ce w ith th e p r oc e du r es o f th e c o mpa n y o n ho w y o u te r min a te th e
e mp lo y me n t o f y o u r e mp lo ye e s .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s .

An d w h e th e r th e b a s is fo r s u s pe n d in g o r re mo v in g th e m

w a s in o u r v iew v a lid , ju s tifie d .

Th a t k in d o f a c tio n a n d w e c o n c lu d ed

th a t in ma n y r e s p e c ts . It d id n o t .
C H A IR PER SO N :

O k a y, n o th a t is fin e .

Th e a n g le fr o m w h ic h I w a s

lo o k in g a t it w a s a s th e Bo a r d y o u mig h t n o t n e c e s s a r ily w a n t to g e t
10

in v o lv ed if th e r e mig h t b e o n e is o la te d in c id e n t b u t i f th e r e s e e ms to b e a
n u mb e r o f ins ta n c es wh e r e p e o p le a r e be ing s u sp e n d ed a n d d is miss e d in
c ir c u ms ta n c es th a t a r e q u e s tio n a b le a s th e Bo a r d y o u mig h t s a y n o , le t u s
tr y a n d fin d o u t w h a t is h a p p e n in g , a s o p p o s ed to w h a t mig h t b e a n
is o la te d c as e . Bu t – b u t I u n d e r s ta n d wh a t y o u me a n , b u t I ju s t th o u g h t
th a t I mu s t k e e p y o u in th e p ic tu r e .
MR MO LEFE:

C h a ir p e rs o n I mu s t s ta te th a t th e r e w e r e ma n y.

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Th e r e w e r e ma n y.

C H A IR PER SO N :
20

MR MO LEFE:

Th e r e w e r e ma n y.

O k a y.

An d I s u p p o s e wh e n w e go do w n , d e a l a t s o me p o in t w ith

th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r ’s R e p or t th is ma tte r is r a is ed th e r e a ga in b y th e
Pu b lic Pr o te c to r.
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , y e s .

Yo u c a n e la bo r a te .

Ja.

O k ay, n o th a t is

fin e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Mr Mo le fe th e fir s t s u b s ta n tiv e me e tin g o f th e Bo a r d

Page 34 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
y o u s ay w a s h e ld in N o ve mb e r 2 0 14 , y o u te ll u s w h a t - te ll th e
C h a ir p er so n w h a t h a p p en e d a t th a t me e tin g ?
MR MO LEFE:

I c a ll it th e f ir s t s u b s ta n tiv e me e tin g C h a ir p er s on b e c au s e

th a t w a s th e fir s t s c h ed u le d me e tin g o f th e Bo a r d th a t is o u ts id e th e
in d u c tio n th a t h a d a lr e a d y ta ke n p la c e .
Th a t me e tin g w e w e r e r e q u ir e d to h o ld , b e c a u s e th e – th e
a mo n g s t o th e r s th e r e w ou ld h a v e b e en o th e r ite ms , b u t a mo n g s t o th e r s
th e Fin a n c e Ca p ita l a n d In v es tme n t - C a p ital In v e s tme n t a n d Pr o cu r e me n t
C o mmitte e o f th e Bo a r d w h ic h is c a lle d t h e FC IP a n d in lin e w ith th e
10

u r g e nc y o f a c c e le r a tin g th e p r o g r a mme o f mo d e r n iz a tio n a n d p r e p a r in g
fo r a s ta g e in y a r d s fo r th e tr a in s th a t w e r e b e in g ma n u fa c tu r e d in Br a z il
a n d w h ic h we r e lik e ly to c o me .
We h a d to ma k e u r g e n t d e c is io n s in th a t r e g a r d .

Ma n a g e me n t

h a d a w a rd e d w e ll h a d – h a d a n no u nc e d th eir p r e fe r r ed b id d e rs in r e s p ec t
o f, in p a r tic u la r Br a a mfo n te in De p o t a n d th e ma tte r th a t p e r ta in e d to r a ils
a n d tu r n o u ts .
Be c a u s e w e a r e a n ew Bo a r d , b e ca u se w e a ls o n e e de d to h a v e
b e e n s e e n to h a v e a p p lie d e o u r min d s o n th e s e ma tte r s . We lo o k e d a t
th e a mo u n ts it w a s in th e r e g io n o f 4 b illio n a n d w e s a id lo o k w e
20

a p p r ec ia te th e u r g e nc y o f th e ma tte r w h ich w a s o f c o ur s e pr e se n te d b y
th e fo r me r C ha ir p er s o n o f th e Bo a r d Mr Sfis o Bu th e le z i w h o ha d n ow
b e c o me th e C h a irp e rs o n o f th e FC IP.
We s a id g iv e us a n a s su r a nc e th a t p r o p er p r o c es s w a s fo llo w ed
b e fo r e y o u a w a r de d to y o u r p r e fe r r e d b id d er. G iv e u s th e Pr o b ity R e p o r t.
Th e Pr o b ity R e p o r t w a s n o t in th e p a c k o f th e Bo a r d . Th e G r o u p C EO ,

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
Mr Mo n ta n a , s a id w e ll y o u k n o w th a t Pr o b ity R e p o r t is th e r e , I c a n n o t
u n d e rs ta n d w hy it is n o t in th e p a ck b u t y ou w ill g e t it, w e w ill g iv e it y o u
a s s o o n as p o ss ib le .
O n th e s tr e n g th o f th e p r o mis e th a t Mr Mo n ta n a ma d e to th e
Bo a r d w h ic h wa s n o t r e fu te d b y th e C h a ir pe r s o n o f th e FC IP, w e a g r e e d
to a d o p t, to a p p r o v e th e r e c o mme n d a tio n b u t w e s a id it is s u b je c t to th a t
Pr o b ity R e p or t b e in g d e liv er e d to th e C h a ir p e rs o n o f th e Bo a r d a n d th e
C h a ir p er so n o f th e R is k C o mmitte e .
Th e m h a v in g a c qu a in te d th e mse lv es to th a t r e p o r t w ill th e n
10

a d v is e th e re s t o f th e D ir e c tor s th a t w e c an n o w g o a h ea d a n d imp le me n t.
At th a t p o in t w e s a id to ma n a g e men t; n o b od y s ho u ld g o a n d te ll w ha t w e ,
w h o w e a r e s ay in g a r e th e p r e fe r r ed b id d e r s th a t th e y h a v e g o t th is
c o n tr ac t b e c a us e w e mu s t fir s t ju mp th is h u r d le .
So , w e w a ite d – w e w a ite d C ha ir p er s on fo r th a t r e p o r t it w a s n o t
fo r th c o min g . O f c o u rs e a r ou n d th a t time Mr Mo n ta n a h a d a dv is e d me th a t
h e fe lt lik e h e w a s b u r n e d o u t, h e h a d b e en w o r k ing v e ry h a r d , c o u ld h e
p le a s e ta k e a b r e a k w h ich I e n c o u r a g e d b e ca u s e I c o u ld s e e h e h a d b e e n
r u n n in g a ro u n d th e c o un tr y a n d s o on .
Th e n , o n e o f th e e x e c u tiv es Mis s Ma r th a N go y e w a s a pp o in te d to

20

a c t a s th e Gr o u p C EO in th e a b se n c e o f Mr Mo n ta n a . Be c a u se w e d id n o t
g e t th e r e p o r t I h a d to c a ll D ir e c to r s w h o we r e o n h o lid a y to a me e tin g o f
th e Bo a r d o f C o n tr o l u n de r s ta nd in g th e u rg e n cy o f th is p r o jec t o f d e p o t
mo d e r n iza tio n r a ils a n d tu r n ou ts w h ic h a re n e c es s ar y fo r th e ma in te na n c e
o f th e r a il tr a c k s a n d s o o n .
We c a lle d th e me e tin g o n th e 2 3 r d D ec e mbe r th a t w a s ju s t tw o

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d a y s be fo r e C hr is tma s a n d I mu s t a p p la u d th e lo y a lty o f th e D ir e c to r s a t
th e time b e c a u s e th e y w e r e a ll w illin g to c o me b a c k to c o n s id e r th is
ma tte r.
At th a t me e tin g Mis s N g o y e s a id a c tu a lly th e r e is n o Pr o b ity
R e p o r t it c ou ld n ev e r ha v e b e e n th er e b ec a u se th e Pr o b ity O ffic e r, h is
c o n tr ac t h a d e x p ir e d a lr e a dy tw e lv e mo n th s b e fo r e th is me e tin g s o th e r e
c o u ld n o t h a v e b ee n a r e p o r t.
Th e d e c is io n w e th e n to o k C h a ir p e r s on w a s to a s k a n a u d it fir m
th a t a ls o s e rv e d a s ou r in te r n a l a ud ito r s to d o w h a t w e c a lle d a d ho c
10

te n d e r s as se ss me n t a n d pr o d uc e ou t o f th a t a n a s s ur a nc e fo r us th a t w e
c a n p r oc e e d w ith a n a wa r d o f th a t te n d e r.
Th e r e p o r t c a me b a ck .

It w a s in th e n e g a tiv e w e s ay s n o yo u

c a n ’t, a t th a t p o in t w e th e n s a id to ma n a g e me n t in th e n o f c o u r s e th is
h a p p e ns a t th e me e tin g h e ld in Fe b r u a r y o f th e fo llo w in g y e a r.
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

2015.

Th e Bo a r d th e n s a y s w e ll w e h a v e to c a n c e l th is c o n tr ac t,

a s k ma n a ge me n t to r e is s u e th e R FB.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Be fo r e w e g e t to th a t I ju s t n e e d to r a is e tw o is s u e s

a b o u t th e me e tin g o f th e 2 7 t h o f N o ve mb e r, Mr Bu th e le z i, th e C h a irp e rs o n
20

o f th e FC IP, s a id to y o u th e s e a r e u r g e n t a nd y o u s h o u ld a p p r ov e th e m.
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir p e rs o n .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

W h a t w a s h is p os itio n o n th e Bo a rd imme d ia te ly

a fte r th e me e tin g ?
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

C h a ir p e r s on , a c tu a lly e v e n b e fo re w e d isc us s e d th is

ma tte r h e g a ve me a le tte r o f r es ig n a tio n , sa y in g th a t h e is r es ig n in g fr o m

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
th e Bo a r d a n d i t w ill b e e ffe c tiv e imme d ia t e ly a fte r th a t p a r tic u la r b o a r d
me e tin g o f th e 2 7 t h o f N o v e mb er.
C H A IR PER SO N :

We ll ju s t g o in g b a ck to th e me e tin g y o u c le a r ly s a id

th a t th e G C EO ma d e it c le a r a t th e me e tin g th a t th e Pr o b ity R e p o r t w a s
th e r e a n d it w o u ld b e fu r n is h e d , h e d id n o t u n d e rs ta n d w h y it w a s n o t p a r t
o f th e p a c k th a t w a s g iv e n to th e Bo a r d m e mb e r s , is th a t r ig h t? Th a t is
w h a t h e s a id .
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is s o , C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A IR PER SO N :
10

Ye s . N o w, w ith r e g a r d to th e th e n C h a ir p e rs o n o f FC IP

Mr Bu th e le z i d id h e a ls o s ay th a t th e r e w a s th e Pr o b ity R e po r t – th e
Pr o b ity R e p o r t w a s th e r e , o r d id h e n o t s a y th a t b u t h e d id n o t r e fu te w h a t
th e G C EO s a id ?
MR MO LEFE :

C h a ir p e rs o n h e d id n o t s a y w h e th e r th e r e w a s a Pr o b ity

R e p o r t n e ith e r d id h e r e fu te w h a t w as s a id by th e g r o u p C EO .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE :

Ye s .

H e d id n o t e v e n s a y o v e r t h e la s t 1 2 mo n th s w e d id n o t

h a v e a Pr o b ity O ffic e r.
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s .

Ye s , b u t a s I u n d e r s to o d y o ur e v id e n ce y o u d id

a s k h im to g iv e y o u as C ha ir p er s on o f th is p a r tic u la r c o mmitte e g iv e y o u
20

a n a ss u r an c e th a t p ro c es s es h ad b e e n fo llo w e d .

N ow, w h e th er o r n o t

p r o c es se s ha d b ee n fo llo w e d w o u ld th a t h a v e be e n ev id e n t fr o m th e
Pr o b ity R e p o r t o r w a s th a t r e q u e s t s e p ar a te fr o m th a t y o u w e r e ma k in g to
h im s e p a r a te fr o m th e Pr o b ity R e p o r t n a m e ly g iv e u s a n a s s ur a nc e th a t
p r o c es se s w er e fo llo w e d th a t is w h a t y ou s a id y o u as k e d h im so my
q u e s tio n is w h e th e r th a t q u es tio n w as go in g to b e a n sw e r ed b y th e

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
Pr o b ity R e p o r t o r w h e th e r th a t q u e s tio n w a s s e p a ra te fr o m th e Pr o b ity
R e p o r t? An d if it w a s s e p a ra te w h e th e r h e d id a n s w e r yo u a n d s a id ye s
p r o c es se s w er e fo llo w e d o r wh e th e r h e d id n o t a n s w er.
MR MO LEFE:

Th e s e q u e n c e w as th a t w e a s k e d fo r a ss u r an c e a n d I

r e c a ll th a t le a d in g th is d is c us s ion w a s th e C h a ir o f th e th e n o u r Au d it a n d
R is k C o mmitte e Mis s Zh o r o Mn a s i[? ] a n d th e n s h e w e n t o n to s a y a
Pr o b ity R e p or t, th e a v a ila b ility o f a Pr o b ity R e p o r t w ou ld g iv e u s th a t
a s s ur a nc e .
O f c o u r s e , in th a t d is c u s s io n Mr Mo n ta n a s a id n o w e c a n a s s u r e
10

w e fo llo w e d p r oc e ss , th e Pr o b ity R e p o r t is t h e r e . At th a t p o in t , I th in k , Mr
Bu th e le z i w a s tak in g g u id an c e fr o m th e Gro u p C EO g iv en th a t h e is th e
C h ie f o f, th e H e a d o f O p e r a tio n s o f th e c o m p a n y.
C H A IR PER SO N :

An d

w o u ld

th e

-

w o uld

you

k n ow

w h e th er

th e

c h a ir pe r so n o f th e FC IP r e p o r t w o u ld h a v e b e e n e x p ec te d to h a v e k n o w n
if th e r e w a s s uc h a r ep o r t b e fo r e th ey ma d e th e ir d e c is io n or w h e th er it is
p o s s ib le th a t th e y c o u ld h a v e d on e th e ir jo b w ith o u t h a v in g s e en th a t
r e p o r t, s e e n w he th e r it e x is te d o r d id n o t e xis t?
MR MO LEFE :

C h a ir p e r so n , if th e y w e r e a p p ly in g th e d u ty o f d ilig e n c e

a n d c a re h e w o u ld h av e to g e th e r w ith h is tea m in th e me e tin g o f th e FC I P
20

th e Fin a n c e C a p ita l In v e s tme n t a n d Pr o c u r e me n t C o mmitte e a s k e d
ma n a g e me n t w h e n th e y p r es e n te d to th e m th is r e c o mme n d a tio n w he th e r
th e r e h a d b ee n Pr o b ity.

Bu t it w o u ld s e em lik e th e c o mmitte e fa ile d to

a d d r es s th a t q u e s tio n .
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

C a n I ju s t fin is h o ff th e r e g a r d o f th e Pr o b ity in

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
r e g a rd to th e s e tw o c o n tr a c ts . Yo u s a y th a t th e Bo a r d a s k e d fo r a n Au d it
R e p o r t o n th e s e tw o c on tr a c ts .
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s , C h a ir p e rs o n .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d y o u th e n s a y th a t th a t r e p o r t, y o u c a ll it a n

a s s es s men t r e p o r t, is a n n e x e d a s PM( 3 ) if y o u lo o k a t th e la s t s e n te n c e
o f p a r a g r a ph 2 0 o f y o u r a ffid a v it.
MR MO LEFE:

O h , o k a y. Ye s , it is .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :
10

C a n y o u p le a s e lo ok at PM( 3 ) p le a s e ?

Te ll h im – te ll u s w h a t p a g e PM( 3 ) is .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

O h , s o r r y. It is a t p a g e 6 4 Mr Mo le fe . W h a t – w h a t

is th a t d o c u me n t?
MR MO LEFE :

Th e – C h a ir p e rs o n , th e d o c u me n t is c a lle d a d h o c r e v ie w

o f te n d e r s Br a a mfo n te in D e p o a n d su p p ly o f r a ils a n d tu r n o u ts .
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d if y o u lo o k a t th e fir s t p a g e o f th e d o c u me n t,

w h a t is th e d a te o f th a t d o c u me n t?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e d a te o f th e d o c u me n t is th e 1 5 t h o f Fe b r u ar y wh ic h is

th e d a te o n w h ic h Th e Bo ar d me t to r e c e iv e th is R e po r t a n d to ma k e a
d e te r min a tio n o n w h e th e r to p r o c e e d o r n o t to p r o c e e d w ith th e te n d e r
20

award.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w it is n o t n ec ess a ry to g o th r o u gh th e r e po r t

b e c a us e th e b o a r d d id ta k e a d ec is io n ev e n tu a lly.
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : C a n I a s k y o u ... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: J u s t o n e s ec o n d .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S SO N I SC : O h s o r r y.
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e d a te o r r a th e r w h a t I s e e o n p a g e 6 4 is th e mo n th
a n d th e y e a r o f th e r e p o r t w ith o u t th e d a y - a n y p u b lic d a te . I u n d e r s to o d
y o u to b e lin k in g th e d a te o f th e r e p o r t w ith a c e r ta in me e tin g o f th e
b o a r d . Is th a t r ig h t? I th o u g h t th a t y o u w er e s ay in g th a t th e d a te o f th e
r e p o r t is th e d a te o f a c e r ta in me e tin g o f th e b o a r d .
MR MO LEFE:

O h , le t me s a y C h a ir pe r so n it w a s d u r in g th e mo n th

Fe b r u a ry o r th e r e a fter.
C H A IR PER SO N: At s o me s ta g e d u r in g Fe b ru a r y.
10

MR MO LEFE: J a . I- y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N: At s o me s ta g e d u r in g Fe b ru a r y ?
MR MO LEFE: In Fe b r u a r y.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o k a y.
MR MO LEFE: Pr o b a b ly th e 2 5 t h b u t w e c a n g o to th e r e c o r d to c o n fir m
th a t.
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : C a n I th e n a s k y o u to l o o k a t p a g e 8 8 , th e 8 8 o n th e
to p .
MR MO LEFE: Pa g e 8 8 .

20

A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d th e n y o u w o u ld s e e in th e s e c o n d la s t p a r a gr a p h
a fte r th e n u mb e r p a r a g r a ph 1 5 th e y a d v ise w h a t ma n a g e me n t a n d th e
b o a r d s h ou ld d o .

An d w h a t is th e a d v ic e a s r e c o r d ed th e r e ?

Sta r tin g

w ith th e w o r d “o v e r a ll”?
C H A IR PER SO N: We ll s h o u ld w e n o t ju s t fir s t h e a r w h o a r e th e a u th o r s o f
th is r e p o r t?

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th e n w e k n o w wh o is a dv is in g .

It lo o k s lik e it is th e

G r o u p C h ie f Ex e cu tiv e O ffic e r, is th a t r ig h t? Th e a u th o r o f th e r e p o r t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : O f- w h o a u th o r e d th e r e p o r t? I th o u g h t i t w a s th e
s p e c ia l co mmitte e th a t th e b o a r d h a d a p p o inte d .
MR MO LEFE: N o , th e a u th o r s o f th e r e p o rt w e r e a n a u d it fir m th a t w a s
p r o v id ing in te r n a l a u d it w o rk fo r Tr a n sn e t. I d id n o t th in k . .. ( in te r v e n e s )
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Fo r PR ASA .
MR MO LEFE: Fo r PR ASA , s o r r y.
10

C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Fo r PR ASA .
C H A IR PER SO N: We ll y o u ... ( in te r v e n e s)
MR MO LEFE: I ... ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u a r e c h a ir ma n o f Tr a ns n e t n o w s o . O k a y, s o le t ...
( in te r v en e s)
MR MO LEFE: I h a v e to s p e a k fo r Tr a n s ne t.
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y s o ... ( in te r v e n es )
MR MO LEFE: N o th e .. . ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N:

20

Th e d o c u me n t a t o n e p a g e o f w h ic h is a t p a g e 8 8 , is

th a t th e p a g e y o u w e r e lo o k ing fo r Mr So n i?
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Is th a t th e d o c u me n t th a t Mr Mo le fe , y o u s a y is a r e p o r t
o f- d id y o u s a y th e a u d it o f th e fir m th a t h a d b e e n a s k ed to p r e p a r e it?
MR MO LEFE: Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

I w a s r e fe r r in g to th e G r o u p C h ie f Ex e c u tiv e

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
O ffic e r s imp ly b e c a u s e it s e e me d to me th a t th a t d o c u me n t e n d s a t p a g e
8 9 a n d I s e e th a t n a me th e r e . Bu t I s e e it s a y s r es p o ns ib le o ffic ia l s o .
MR MO LEFE: Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

So

r es p o ns ib le

o ffic ia l

mig h t

not

me a n

o ffic ia l

r e s p on s ib le fo r th is r e p or t fo r th e p r e p a r a tion o f th e r e p o r t.
MR MO LEFE: Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: I th o u g h t th a t is w h a t i t m e a n t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: It is n o t w h a t i t me a n s ? I w a s se e in g th a t w h e r e it s ay s
10

r e s p on s ib le o ffic ia l a n d I th o u g h t it me a n t th a t th a t is th e o ffic ia l th a t
p r e p ar e d th e r e p o r t. Bu t y o u a r e s a y in g , n o th a t is n o t th e p o s itio n .
MR MO LEFE: Th e r e p o r t w a s p r e pa r e d by th e ... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: An o u ts id e fir m.
MR MO LEFE: An o u ts id e fir m b u t i t w a s w o r k in g in s ide .
C H A IR PER SO N: O h w ith in , ja .
MR MO LEFE: PR ASA o n a r e g u la r b a s is .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o k a y.
MR MO LEFE:

Be c a u s e it w a s p r o v id in g se r v ice s fo r th a t in te r n a l a u d it

fu n c tio n th r o u g h o u t.
20

C H A IR PER SO N: O h o k a y.
MR MO LEFE: An d C h a ir p e rs o n I h a v e n o t l o o k e d a t th e n a me . I h a v e n o t
b e e n in PR ASA fo r a lo n g time b u t I th in k it w a s c a lle d Sik h e la Tlh ab is o , I
th in k w a s th e c o mp a ny if I r e me mb e r v e r y we ll, ja .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k ay a lr ig h t. Mr So n i, is th is c la r ify s o th a t r e sp o n s ib le
o ffic ia l . .. ( in te r v e n e s )

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S SO N I SC : I a m g o in g to d e a l w ith .. . ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u w ill d e a l w ith it , o k a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So , c a n I ju s t p u t th e r e p o r t in p e rs p ec tiv e o r as k
y o u to p u t th e r e p o r t in p e r s p e c tiv e ? At p a g e 8 8 , th a t is th e o n e w e a r e
lo o k in g a t, if y o u lo o k a t p a g e 8 6 fir s t o f a ll Mr Mo le fe , p a g e 8 6 o f th a t
r e p o r t. H a v e y ou g o t it?
MR MO LEFE: Ye s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Yo u s e e th a t th e h e a d in g is , O v e r a ll C o n c lus io n a n d
R e c o mme nd a tio n s . Yo u s e e th a t?
10

MR MO LEFE: I d o . I d o s e e th a t C h a ir.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : R ig h t. N o w we d o n o t n e e d to g o th r o ug h a ll o f th a t
b e c a us e I ju s t o n e I th in k th e r e le va n t pa r t is , s o th e y a r tic u la te 1 5
r e c o mme nd a tio n s th a t th e y ma k e a n d th o s e e n d a t p a g e 8 8 .
C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o rr y Mr Son i. I a m r e a lly so r ry to in te r ru p t y o u
a g a in .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o , th a t is fin e .
C H A IR PER SO N: C a n I k n o w w h e r e th is r e p o r t s ta r ts a n d w h e r e it e n d s
b e c a us e ma y be th a t is w h e r e my p r o b le m is .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s , s o r r y Mr C ha ir.

20

C H A IR PER SO N: I a m th in k in g it is a p a r tic u la r o f p a ge s , th e e n d o f th e
r e p o r t w h er e it mig h t ( in d is tin c t) .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So , it s ta r ts a t p a g e 6 4 C h a ir p e rs o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . An d i t e n d s w h e r e ?
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d it e n d s o n p a g e 8 9 b u t I w ill tr y th r o u g h th e

w itn e s s to e x p la in h ow 8 9 c o mes a b o u t a n d h o w it is r e la te d to th e r e p o r t.

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C H A IR PER SO N:

O k ay, 8 9 is th e p a g e to w h ic h I re fe r r ed e a r lier a s

a d v is ed ?
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s , th a t is th e p a g e .
C H A IR PER SO N: O h o ka y. So , I w a s r ig h t a b o u t th a t p a g e b e in g th e las t
page?
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So Mr Mo le fe . .. ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e r ea s o n w hy I w a s w on d e r in g w h e th e r th a t is w h er e
10

it e n d s is b e c a us e if y o u g o to th e n e x t p a g e it s a y s 7 .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: An d 7 s e e ms to fo llo w u p o n 6 a t p a g e 8 8 a n d th a t g a v e
me th e imp r e s s io n th a t it is s till c o n tin u in g .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : C o n tin u in g w ith th e r e p o r t.
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So , w e k n o w th a t th is p a r t o f th e r e p o r t w h ic h e n d s
o n p a g e 88 is p ar a g ra p h - b ig p a ra g r ap h 5 o f th e r e p o r t w h ic h is he a d ed ,
O v e r a ll C on c lus io n a n d R ec o mme n da tio n . Wo u ld th a t b e c o r r e c t?
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir pe rs o n .

20

A D V VA S SO N I SC : O k a y. Th e n i f y o u lo o k a t r ig h t a t th e e n d o f p a g e 8 8
a fte r th e n u mb e r e d p a r a g r a ph 1 5 th e r e a r e tw o p a r a g r a p hs , tw o s h o r t
p a r a gr a p hs . D o y o u s e e th a t?
MR MO LEFE: I d o C h a ir.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Wo u ld y o u p le a s e r e a d th e m in to th e r e c o r d a n d th e n
I a m ju s t g o in g to a s k y o u w h a t y ou u n d e rs ta n d th e m to me a n .

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MR MO LEFE: Th e p a r a g r a p hs r e a ds a s fo llo w C h a ir pe rs o n a n d I r e a d o n
p a g e 8 8 o f th e An n e x u r e . It s a y s ;
O v e r a ll ma n a g e men t a n d th e b o a r d mu s t ta k e a d e c is io n to
a c c ep t o r r e je c t th e n o n - c o mp lia nc e w ith t h e p o lic y o f th e tw o
a ffe c te d te n d e r s r e v iew e d .
Th e n th e fo llo w in g p a r a g ra p h s ay s ;
Th is r ec o mme n d a tio n ha s b ee n d isc us s e d w ith th e G r o u p Ch ie f
Ex e c u tiv e O ffic e r a n d h is r es p o ns e a n d actio n p la n is r e fle c te d
b e lo w.
10

A D V VA S SO N I SC : So th a t is th e O v e r a ll R e c o mme nd a tio n to th e b o a r d .
I s e e y o u s h ak e y o ur h e a d Mr Mo le fe , d o e s th a t me a n y e s ?
MR MO LEFE:

We ll it is .

It is th e r e c o mme n d a tio n to th e b o a r d

C h a ir p er so n .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : O k a y. Th e n th e n e x t p a r a g ra p h - o h so r ry.
C H A IR PER SO N: J u s t o n e s e c o n d Mr So n i. Ar e w e a b le to h a v e a n a me
fo r th is r e p o r t s o w h e n w e r e fe r to it w e c a n k n o w w h a t w e c a ll it in th e
mis t o f a ll th e s e d o c u me n ts ? We c a n c a ll it b y th e n a me o f th e a u th o r if
n e c es s ar y w as - w as it Th la b is o w h o ev e r ? W h a t r e p o r t?
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Sh o u ld w e c a ll it ... ( in te r v e n es )
20

C H A IR PER SO N: I ju s t w a n t th a t w h e n w e r e fe r to i t a n d w h e n a n y b o d y
r e a d s th e tr a ns c r ip ts , th e y c a n k n ow w h a t r ep o r t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : To id e n tify w h a t th e s u b s ta n ce is C h a ir p e rs o n I a m
g o in g to p r o p o se w e c a ll it R e p o r t o n R e v iew o f Te n d e r s .
C H A IR PER SO N: R e p o r t o n R e v ie w o f Te n d e r s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
C H A IR PER SO N: R e p o r t o n R e v ie w o f Te n d e r s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k ay a lr ig h t. Th a t is w ha t w e w ill c a ll it th e n . O k a y,
th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : C a n I th e n a s k Mr Mo l e fe fo r y o u to tu r n to p a g e 8 9 .
N o w w h a t is th a t in r e la tio n to th e r e p o r t? W h a t d o e s th a t in d ic a te ?
MR MO LEFE:

C h a ir p e r so n th e - th a t p a g e is c a lled Ma n a g e me n t

R e s po n s e a n d Ac tio n Pla n b u t fu n d a me n ta lly it is a s ec tio n th a t s a ys
th e r e h a s b e e n n on -c o mp lia n ce a n d th a t th e te n d e r s s h ou ld b e c a nc e lle d .
10

A D V VA S SO N I SC : D o e s it n o t g o fu r th e r a n d s a y th e ma tte r h a s b e en
d is c us s ed w ith ma n a g e me n t a n d th is is h ow ma n a g e me n t r es p o n de d ? If
y o u r e a d th e r e sp o n se , th e s ma ll- th e p a r a g r a p h u n d er th e s ma ll h e a d in g ,
R e s po n s e .
MR MO LEFE: C h a ir p e r s o n w e re c a ll th a t w e h a d a lr e a dy r e fe rr e d in th e
p r e c ed in g p a g e ... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: To th e d is c u ss io n w ith Ma n a ge me n t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: I d o n o t s e e th a t o n th is p a g e .

20

C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: H o w e v e r ... ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N:

It is o n th e la s t p a g e , o n th e p r e v io us p a ge , th e la s t

s e n te n ce .
MR MO LEFE: Th e p r e v io u s p ag e .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MO LEFE: Th a t w a s d e a lt w ith a t th a t p o in t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE:

So , it s a y s w e h a v e d isc us s e d .

We d e mo n s tr a te d th a t

th e r e h a d n o t b e e n c o mp lia n c e a n d ma n a g e me n t a g r e e w ith u s . An d th a t
th e y th e r e fo r e p r op o s e th is Ac tio n Pla n w h ic h mu s t b e d r iv e n by th e C h ie f
Ex e c u tiv e O ffic e r, Mr L u c ky Mo n ta n a , G r o u p C h ie f Ex e c u tiv e O ffic e r.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : In e ffe c t th a t is s u mm a r is in g w h a t th e fin a l o u tc o me
w a s fo llo w in g th e p u b lica tio n o f th e r e p o r t?
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a irp e rs o n . I f I ma y c o me in ju s t to s a y
10

th a t w h e r e th e y d e a l w ith th e Ac tio n Pla n , th e y s ta te c a te g o r ic a lly th a t;
We w ill d e s ign a lte r n a tive te n d e r p r oc e du r e s to ac q u ir e th e
e q u ip me n t a n d se r v ic e s r e q u ir e d .

C o ns eq u e n ce ma n a g e me n t

w o u ld b e imp le me n te d a cc o r d ing ly.
C H A IR PER SO N:

N ow th e las t s e n te nc e at p a g e 8 8 to wh ic h y o u a ls o

r e fe r r e d Mr Mo le fe . I t te lls u s th a t w h a t w e w ill fin d o n th e n e x t p a g e is
th e G r o u p C EO s R es p o ns e a n d Ac tio n Pla n . Yo u s e e th a t?
MR MO LEFE: I s e e th a t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . N o w w h e n o n e lo ok s a t th e n e x t p a g e it r e fe r s to ,
“w e ”.
20

Afte r d u e c o n s id e r a tio n o f th e c o n te x t o f th is r e p o r t fr o m th e
in te r n a l a u d it c o ns o r tiu m, w e a r e o f th e v ie w th a t th e tw o
te n d e r s a re n o n -c o mp lia n t a n d w ill th e r e fo r e b e c a n c e lle d .
Is it th e G r o u p C EO s p e ak in g th e r e th a t is s a y in g th a t? As y o u
u n d e rs ta n d th e p o s itio n .
MR MO LEFE: Pa r a g r a p h 6 s ay s Ma n ag e men t R e s p o ns e a n d Ac tio n Pla n .

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C H A IR PER SO N: Ac tio n Pla n , y e s . W h ic h s u g g e s t th a t ... ( in te r v e n e s)
MR MO LEFE: I ima g in e it is th e G r o u p C EO th a t is ta lk in g a s p a r t o f th e
c o lle c tiv e .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , o k a y.

No , I ju s t w a n te d to u n d er s ta nd th a t

b e c a us e th e la n g u a g e s e e ms to s u g g e s t to me th a t ma y b e it is th e
c o mmitte e s till s p e a k ing e ve n th o u g h it s a ys Ma n a g e men t R e sp o ns e . Bu t
th in k p r o b a b ly I a m mis ta k e n . Be c a u s e la te r o n it s a y s ;
We w ill d e s ign a lte r n a tive te n d e r p r oc e du r e s to ac q u ir e th e
e q u ip me n t.
10

Th a t “w e ” mu s t b e ma n a g e me n t.
MR MO LEFE: C h a ir p e r s o n it is th e ma n a g eme n t .. . ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Ma n a g e me n t.
MR MO LEFE: Te a m .. . ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t is ta lk in g .
MR MO LEFE: Th a t s a y s th a t le a d b y th e G r o u p C EO .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: An d b e c a u s e th e b o a r d co mmitte e o r th e in te r n a l a u d it f ir m
c a n n o t b e th e o n e th a t d e s ig n s ... ( in te r v e ne s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o f c o u r s e .

20

MR MO LEFE: Th e s e p r o c ed u r es to a c q u ir e th is .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: An d s e c o n d ly it w o u ld - th e c o mmitte e w o u ld n o t h a v e ta k e n
a v ie w o n w h o sh o u ld b e th e r e sp o n s ib le o ff ic e r.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . So th a t r e s p o n s ib le o ffic ia l th a t w a s c o n fu s in g me
e a r lie r mus t b e me a n in g th a t is th e o ffic ia l w h o w ill b e r e sp o ns ib le to - fo r

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th e imp le me n ta tio n o f th is Ac tio n Pla n .
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Th e o w n e r o f th e b u s in e s s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e o w n e r o f th e - ja , o k a y. Th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w fo llo w ing th e p u b lic a tio n o f th is r e po r t in

Fe b r u a ry w h o th e a c c e p ta n ce o f th is r e p o r t s e e min g ly b r o u g h t b y th e
b o a r d a n d ma n ag e me n t, w h a t h a p p e n ed ?
MR MO LEFE:
10

We ll C h a ir p e rs o n I d id s ay a t th a t me e tin g g iv e n th e

r e c o mme nd a tio n a n d th e - b e c a us e th e r e is a d e ta ile d r e p o r t o f th e
in te r n a l a u d ito r s . I th in k th is b u n d le mu s t b e c o n ta in in g th a t.
Th e b o a r d c o nc u rr e d th a t it w a s n o t th e k in d o f a te n d e r w e
c o u ld p r oc e ed w ith . Th a t a n e w R FP n e e d e d to b e is s u e d a s a ma tte r o f
u r g e nc y to in v ite p a r tic ipa n ts .

O f c o u r s e , I mu s t s a y C h a ir p er so n th a t

th e - a t th a t time th e G C E, w e ll h e w o u ld h a v e b e e n b ac k in Fe b r u ar y b u t
h e h a d g o n e le a ve a s I in d ic a te d e a r lie r o n th a t h e n e e d e d a r e s t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So , d id y o u th e n c a n ce l th e te n d e r ? D id th e b o a r d
c a n ce l th e te n d e r ?
MR MO LEFE:
20

Th e b o a r d c a nc e lle d th e te n d e r C h a ir p e rs o n bu t th e

d ir e c to rs a n d th e b o ar d s an c tio n e d th e co nd u c t o f th e G r o u p C EO th a t h e
h a d mis le a d th e b o a r d w h e n h e a s su r e d th e b o a r d th a t th e r e w a s a
p r o b ity r e po r t w h e n in fa c t h e s h ou ld h a v e k n o wn th a t th e r e w a s n o s uc h
a r e p o r t. Be c a u s e th e p r o b ity o ffic e r h a d n o t b e e n in p la c e fo r a p e r io d
o f a p p r o x ima te ly 1 2 mo n th s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

So , c a n I ju s t a s k yo u in r e g ar d to th a t is s u e Mr

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Mo le fe . Th e r e is n o p r o b ity o ffic e r fo r 1 2 mo n th s , th a t is w h a t y o u w e r e
to ld ?
MR MO LEFE: Ye s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Mr Mo n ta n a a s s u r es y o u th a t th e r e is a p r o b ity

r e p o r t.
MR MO LEFE: Ye s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Yo u th e n fin d o u t i n D e c e mb e r th a t th e r e is n o

p r o b ity o ffic e r. In te r ms o f th e a s s ur a nc e th a t Mr Mo n ta n a h a d g iv e n y o u ,
w h a t c o n c lus io n d id y o u a r r iv e a t?
10

In o th e r w o r d s , h a d h e ma d e a

mis ta k e ? W h a t w a s h is s ta te o f min d in ma k in g th a t r e p r e s e n ta tio n to y o u
a b o u t th e p r o b ity r e p o r t?
MR MO LEFE: We ll C h a ir p e r s o n th e o n ly c on c lu s ion o n e c a n d r a w is th a t
th e G r o u p C EO d e lib e r a te ly mis le a d th e b o a r d b e ca u s e h e w an te d th e
b o a r d to r a p id ly a p p r ov e a te n d e r th a t w as s e r iou s ly fla w ed .

Be c a u s e

e v e n a fte r it w a s fo un d th a t th e te n d e r pr o c es s w a s fla we d , h e n e ve r
c a me to a p o lo g is e to th e b o a r d fo r th a t.
An d th a t is w h y th e b o a r d sa id th e r e is a n e e d to e n fo r c e go o d
c o r p or a te g o v er n a nc e in th e lig h t o f th is g r o s s d e r e lic tio n o f d u ty b y th e
Ex e c u tiv e Ma n ag e me n t Te a m a t th e h e a d o f w h o m w a s th e G r o up C EO .
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

D id th e b o a r d n o t a fte r it h a d b e e n in fo r me d b y Ms

N g o ye th a t o n e , th e r e w a s n o t a n y p r o b ity re p o r t a n d two th e r e c o u ld n o t
h a v e b e en a n y p ro b ity r e p or t b e c a us e th e re w a s n o t- th e r e h ad b e e n n o
p r o b ity o ffic e r fo r 1 2 mo n th s .
D id th e b o a r d a t a n y s ta g e c o n fr o n t th e G r o u p C EO a n d s a y,
“C EO , y o u to ld u s th e r e w a s a p r o b ity r e p o r t. Yo u k n o w h o w imp o r ta n t

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th a t r e p o r t w o u ld h a v e b e e n .

W h y d id y o u te ll u s th e r e w a s a p r o b ity

r e p o r t w h e n in fa c t th e r e w a s n o p r o b ity r e p o r t? ” An d i f th e b o a r d d id
o b v io us ly no t n e c es sa r ily in th os e te r ms b u t in e ffe c t a n d if th e b o a r d d id ,
w h a t w a s h is a ns w er ?
MR MO LEFE: My r e c o lle c tio n is th a t th e b o a r d d id s o . Th e e x c u s e o f th e
G r o u p C EO is th a t h e w a s mis le d , h e w a s to ld th a t th e r e w a s th a t p r o b ity
r e p o r t. Th e r e w a s n o e x p la n a tio n a s to h o w th e p r o b ity r e p o r t c o u ld h a v e
b e e n th e r e if th e r e w a s n o p r ob ity o ffic e r fo r 1 2 mo n th s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Bu t a m I w r o n g to th in k th a t th e w a y h e h a d g ive n
10

th e a s s ur a nc e to th e b o a rd th a t th e r e w as a p r o b ity re p o r t g av e o ne th e
imp r e s s io n th a t it is a d o cu me n t th a t h e h ad s e e n or a m I b e in g un fa ir to
h im?
MR MO LEFE:

C h a ir p e rs o n if a n d th e r ec o r d th a t s h ow th e r e wa s n o

p r o b ity o ffic e rs fo r 1 2 mo n ths p re c e d in g th e r e c o mme nd e d te n d er. Th e r e
w a s n o w ay in w h ic h h e c ou ld h a v e se e n pr o b ity r e p or t. Be c a u s e w h e r e
w o u ld it h a v e c o me fr o m? U n le ss it is a c o n c o c tio n o f s o me b od y e lse , it
c o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a p r o p e r p r o b ity r e po r t.

An d b e s id e s th e in te r n a l

a u d it c o mp a n y w o u ld h a v e b e e n a w a re o f t h a t p r o b ity r e p o r t th e ms e lv e s
a s th e y a r e th e o n e s th a t h a v e to a d v is e o n th e p r e p a r a tio n o f fin a n c ia l
20

s ta te me n ts w h ic h u ltima te ly b e c o me p ar t o f th e Au d ite d G e n e r a l’s r e p or t.
So , it c o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n th a t h e h a d s e e n th e r e p o r t. O n e c a n
ta lk a t le n g th a b o u t th e s e th in gs b u t th e co n c lu s io n th a t o n e ca n a sk is
th a t- th a t o n e c a n ar r ive a t is th a t th e G r o up C EO a n d ma n ag e me n t mo s t
lik e ly w er e u s ed to th e b o a r d o f d ir e c to r s wh ic h d id n o t in te r r o g a te iss u es
to th e e x te n d th a t th is b o a r d w a s d o in g . S o , a ll th a t y o u n e e d e d to d o is

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to w r ite g o o d En g lis h , d o a p r e s e n ta tio n in a v e r y a r ticu la te w a y a n d s a y
th a t, “ I r e c o mme n d th a t y o u ap p r ov e ”. An d th e b o a r d w o u ld jus t a p p r ov e .
Ja.
C H A IR PER SO N: Th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Ma y I a s k a n d I wa n t to r e tu r n to th a t is s u e in

mo me n t C h a ir p e rs o n b ec a us e I- it is a n imp o r ta n t is s u e .
C H A IR PER SO N: It is q u ite imp o r ta n t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . Bu t I w ill r e tu r n to it in a mo me n t b e c a u s e I
ju s t w a n t to d e a l w ith o th e r d e v e lo p me n ts th a t to o k p la c e a t th a t time .
10

N o w fo r g e ttin g Mr Mo n ta n a ’s s ta te o f min d a n d w h a t y o u
b e lie v e d p ro mp te d h im to mis r e p r e se n t th e p o s itio n to y o u . W h a t s te p s
d id th e b o a r d tak e in r eg a r d to Mr Mon ta n a ’s p o w er s fo llow in g th e
c a n ce lla tio n o f th e te n d e r s ?
MR MO LEFE: Ag a in , w e n e e d to p u t in c o n te x t C h a ir p er s on th e s e s te p s .
Th e c o n tex t is th a t w e n o w a r e in a p o ss e ss io n o f th e le tte r fr o m Mr
Mo n ta n a th a t s a y s , “D o n o t e x te n d my c o n tra c t. I a m le a v in g .”
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE:

Th e n th e imme d ia te th in g t h a t e x e rc is es th e min d o f th e

b o a r d is th a t w e n ow k no w th a t th in g s c an g o g r os s ly wr o n g w ith th e
20

b u s in es s . It w o u ld n o t b e p r o pe r to k e ep th e G r o u p C EO wh o h as a lr e a dy
to ld u s h e is le a v in g w ith a ll th e d e le g a ted a u th o r ity o f a G r o u p C EO .
Th a t is o n e p o in t. Th e s e c o n d o n e w a s we a ls o d id a n a s se ss me n t a n d
c o n c lud e d th a t th e O ffic e o f th e G r o u p C E O w a s ju s t to o p o w e r fu l. Th e
g r o u p C EO wa s a G ro u p C EO o f PR ASA, h e w a s th e c h a ir ma n o f Au to p a x ,
h e w a s c h a ir ma n o f In te r s ite . An d s o , w e s a id w e th in k th a t- w e to o k a

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d e c is ion th a t w e a r e w ith d r a w in g h im a s a c h a ir p er s on to a llo w th o s e
s u b s id ia r ies to o p e ra te in a u to n o mou s w a y a n d a cc o un t fo r th e ir s ins to
th e b o a r d o f c o n tr o l o f th e g r o u p .
Bu t w e a ls o s a id th a t w e w e r e g o in g to c ur ta il th e a u th o r ity o f
th e G r o u p C EO in r e s p e c t o f p r o c u r e me n t.

Th a t p r o c u r e me n t th a t h e

in te n d s p r oc e e d in g w ith w ill h a v e to b e a p p ro v e d b y th e b o a r d . H e n e e d s
to r e p o r t o n a ll o f th e s e ins ta n c es . An d b a s ic a lly, w e ar e s ay in g th in gs
mu s t c h a n g e .

Th e r e is a n e w b o ar d it h a s g o t its o w n n e w s ty le o f

g o v e rn a nc e . It is imp o r ta n t fo r ma n a g e men t in c lu d in g th e G r ou p C EO to
10

a d ju s t to th is s ty le o f ma n a g e me n t o f th e b o a r d - s ty le o f g o v er n a nc e ,
s o r ry.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Is th a t w h a t y o u c o n v ey e d to Mr Mo n ta n a ?
MR MO LEFE: I d id .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w th a t . .. ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N:

O n e se c on d Mr So n i.

Ju s t to u n d e rs ta n d wh e r e th e

b o a r d wa s a t th is s ta g e . So , th e b o a r d h a d h e a r d a n inc id e n t o r ma yb e
n o t in c id e n t.

H a d ha d a s itu a tio n w h er e th e G C EO - it h a d a sk e d th e

G C EO fo r v a r io u s c on tr a c ts a n d th e G C EO h a d n o t p r o v id e d w ith th o s e
c o n tr ac ts . An d th e b o a r d h a d h a d to g o o u ts id e o f th e - o f PR ASA to g e t a
20

p r e s en ta tio n th a t s a tis fie d th e b o a r d .

To d id n o t h a d - th e s a me G C EO

h a d g iv e n th e b o a r d a n a ss ur a n ce o n a v e r y imp o r ta n t is s u e th a t tu r n e d
o u t to b e w r o n g .

A t th a t s ta g e a f te r th e s e tw o s itu a tio n s w h ic h h a d

h a p p e n ed , w h a t w a s th e b o a r d ’s a tti tu d e o f o r to w a r d s o r u n d e r s ta n d in g
o f th e ty p e o f C EO PR ASA h a d ?
MR MO LEFE: Th e c o n c e r n o f th e b o a r d w a s th a t it h a d a G r o u p C EO w h o

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c o u ld mis le a d th e b o a r d a ny p a r t o f th e d a y b u t w h o c o u ld a ls o w ith h o ld
in fo r ma tio n fr o m th e b o a r d . Bu t th a t b e in g th e c a s e , w e h a d to d e a l w ith
th e r e a lity C h a ir pe r so n th a t I me a n in th e n o r ma l- th in g s b e ing n o r ma l
o n e w o u ld h av e s a id , w hy d id y o u n o t ju s t fi r e th e p e r s o n ins te a d ?
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: Bu t I h a d a lr e a d y r e fe rr e d to e a r lie r o n to th e a s s e ss me n t
ma d e b y th e Au d it a n d R is k c o mmitte e t h a t s a id th e o r g a n is a tio n is
b r o k en it is d y s fu n c tio n a l. D e p a r tme n ts ... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e r e w e r e n o c on tr o ls .
10

MR MO LEFE: An d p e o p le w h o a r e th e r e do n o t h a v e th e r e q u is ite s k ills
to d o w h a t th e y a r e s u p p o s ed to d o . Th a t i s o n e p o in t. Th e s e c o n d p o in t
is th a t w e w e r e a w a re th a t in a n y e v e n t th e p e r s on is le a v in g .
C H A IR PER SO N: Is le a v in g , ja .
MR MO LEFE:

Bu t w e d o n o t r e a d ily h a v e a p e r s o n to fill th a t p o s itio n

a n d w e a r e g o in g o u t to s e a rc h fo r a n a p p rop r ia te G r o u p C EO .
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: So , w e s a y, w e ll w e w ill le av e w ith th is s itu a tio n p r ov id e d
w e in tr o d uc e ce r ta in s tr ic tu r es c er ta in c on tro ls a mo n gs t w h ich w o u ld h a ve
b e e n th a t o n e o f r e d u c in g th e d e le g a tio n o f a u th o r ity a n d c e r ta in c e r ta in
20

c o n d itio n s o n n o t g o in g o u t to is s u e te n d e r s w ith o u t th e a p p r o v a l o f th e
board.
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
MR MO LEFE: So th a t is h o w w e w e r e lo o k in g a t it a t th e time .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o k a y. So , h a d it n o t b e e n fo r th e fa c t th a t h e w a s
a b o u t to le a v e a ny w ay, it ma y b e th a t th e b o a r d mig h t h av e c on s id er e d

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w h e th e r it s h o u ld ta k e a ny d is c ip lina ry a c tion a g a in s t h im.
MR MO LEFE: O r d in a r ily C h a ir p e rs o n th a t is w h a t th e b o a r d wo u ld h av e
h a d to c o n s id er.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: G iv e n h is o w n r e s p o ns ib ilitie s .
C H A IR PER SO N: J a . O k a y, Mr So n i.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : C h a ir p e r s on , I s e e it is 1 o ’c lo c k a n d w e a r e g o in g to
g e t in to a n e w to p ic .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . I th in k le t u s ta k e th e lu n c h a d jo u rn me n t a n d w e
10

w ill r e s u me a t 2 o ’c lo ck . We a d jo u r n .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : As y o u p le a s e .
R EG ISTR A R : All r is e .
IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S
IN Q U IRY R ESU MES
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M r M o l e f e y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i th s o m e o f t h e

is s u e s t h a t y o u t o o k i n t o a c c o u n t i n d e c id i n g h o w t o h a n d le M r M o n t a n a
a ft e r y o u d is c o v e r e d t h a t h e h a d f ir s t ly n o t g iv e n y o u th e c o n t r a c t s a n d
t h e n h e h a d m is le d y o u i n r e la t io n to t h e – t h e Pr o p e r t y R e p o r t s
mandate.
20

MR MOLEF E: That is…
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t w a s a ll p a r t o f t h e b a c k g r o u n d a g a i n s t w h ic h
y o u d e c i d e d t h a t i n s t e a d o f t a k i n g a c ti o n a g a in s t h i m y o u w o u l d s o r t o f
r id e th e s t o r m u n ti l h e l e ft a n d y o u fo u n d a n e w C E O ?
M R M O L E F E : I t is s o C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w t h e r e a r e a c o u p le o t h e r m a t te r s t h a t s e e m t o

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fi t i n t o t h a t a n d y o u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 th a t o n e o f th o s e c o n c e r n e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is 2 4 o f h i s a ff id a v i t ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : O f – a s y o u p l e a s e M r C h a i r m a n t h a t i s S S 6 . Yo u
s a y t h a t o n e o f t h o s e m a t t e r s w a s a n I n te r i m R e p o r t b y t h e P u b li c
Protector?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s s o C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y w e – i f w e c o u l d le a v e o u t a c o n s id e r a ti o n o f
t h e r e p o r t b e c a u s e t h a t is th e fi n a l r e p o r t u n ti l l a t e r w h e n w e w il l d e a l
with it more – in more detail.
10

Can I just ask you now what was the

is s u e o f c o n c e r n a t t h a t t i m e i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 f o r y o u ?
MR MOLEFE:

Is i t i n r e la t io n t o th e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r ’s I n te r i m R e p o r t

o r i s i t a d i ff e r e n t q u e s t i o n C h a ir ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y i f y o u lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Yo u s a y i n D e c e m b e r I b e c a m e a w a r e o f m e d i a

reports.
M R M O L E F E : O k a y. W e l l C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:
20

Ye s in D e c e m b e r I b e c a m e a w a r e o f m e d i a r e p o r ts b u t

t h o s e r e p o r t s r e la t e d t o th e – w h a t w a s a ll e g e d t o h a v e b e e n a n i n t e r i m
– a p e n d i n g r e p o r t b y t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a n d a t t h a t s t a g e i t w a s
r e p o r t e d t h a t t h e I n t e r i m R e p o r t h a d b e e n g iv e n to – t o P R A S A a lr e a d y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i n r e g a r d to t h a t w h a t w a s y o u r c o n c e r n ?
MR MOL EFE: My main concern Chairperson was that the Board having
b e e n in o ff ic e f o r a p p r o x i m a te ly f o u r m o n t h s h a d n o t b e e n in f o r m e d o f

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t h a t r e p o r t . I t h a d n o t – w e h a d n o t s e e n it a n d it w a s c l e a r th a t a t t h e
ti m e t h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w a s c o n c e r n e d t h a t P R A S A w a s n o t
c o o p e r a ti n g t h e i n fo r m a ti o n r e q u ir e d .
CHAIRPERSON: At the time you became aware of these media reports
in D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a b o u t a n In t e r i m R e p o r t o f th e P u b li c P r o te c t o r w e r e
y o u a w a r e th a t th e r e w a s s o m e in v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t w a s b e i n g c o n d u c t e d
b y th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r i n to s o m e is s u e s a t P R A S A ?
MR MOLEFE:

N o f o r m a l i n fo r m a t i o n h a d b e e n g i v e n to a b o u t t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n s b y th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : B u t I k n o w t h a t in s o m e c a s u a l d is c u s s i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : T h e G C E O M r M o n ta n a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

K e p t o n t a lk i n g a b o u t s o m e m e m b e r s o f th e U n i o n w h o

li e d a b o u t h i m .
MR MOLEFE: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

W h o w e n t t o c o m p l a i n t o t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a n d t h e

f a c t t h a t t h e ir U n i o n d is a g r e e d w i t h t h e m a n d h a d e x p e l l e d t h e m fr o m
20

the Union.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s r e a lly t h e e x t e n t o f t h e li t tl e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t y o u k n e w.
MR MOLEF E: I can remember of that period.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . A n d w o u l d th a t h a v e b e e n s o m e th in g t h a t y o u

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b e c a m e a w a r e o f fr o m a s y o u s a y a c a s u a l d is c u s s i o n w i th t h e G C E O ?
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r s e l f a s o p p o s e d t o t h e B o a r d ?
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a a s fa r a s t h e B o a r d i s c o n c e r n e d i t w a s n o t

in f o r m e d ?
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It h a d n o t b e e n i n f o r m e d a t t h a t s t a g e .
M R M O L E F E : N o th e B o a r d h a d n o t b e e n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEF E: Informed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w y o u r o w n a t ti t u d e to t h e f a c t t h a t m a t t e r s h a d
b e e n r e f e r r e d to th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r y o u w e r e a w a r e o f t h a t a t l e a s t?
T h a t is w h y s h e w a s p r o d u c i n g h e r r e p o r t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k – I t h i n k w h a t h e m e a n is … .
M R M O L E F E : W e l l I a m s a y in g t h a t I b e c a m e a w a r e a s a r e s u l t o f w h a t
was in the media report.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s b u t t h e q u e s t i o n I a m a s k i n g is d i d y o u m a k e
a n y e n q u ir i e s a s to w h a t a r e t h e is s u e s th a t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r o r h a d
b e e n r e p o r t e d t o t h e P u b lic P r o te c t o r a n d th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w o u ld
report on?
M R M O L E F E : I d i d d o s o C h a ir p e r s o n I d i d a s k a b o u t th is r e p o r t a ft e r I
h a d s e e n in t h e m e d i a i n a o n e t o o n e d is c u s s i o n w i t h Mr M o n t a n a a n d

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t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n th e n e w y e a r n o t – t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n
2015.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : N o t i n 2 0 1 4 a t th e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

A n d th a t e n g a g e m e n t y o u k n o w d id n o t y i e ld a n y t h i n g

s u b s t a n t iv e b e c a u s e I w a s s a y in g if i t is s o g iv e u s t h e r e p o r t w e w a n t
t o k n o w w h a t is it t h a t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r w a n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t y o u – is w h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d fr o m t h e m e d ia
10

r e p o r t s w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s a n I n te r i m R e p o r t o f th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r
t h a t h a d a l le g e d ly b e e n f o r w a r d e d to P R A S A ?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : To w h ic h c e r ta i n q u e s ti o n s w e r e r a is e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s n e e d i n g a n s w e r s .
M R M O L E F E : In w h ic h c e r t a i n q u e s t io n s w e r e r a is e d t o w h ic h P R A S A
w a s r e q u i r e d to p r o v id e a n s w e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : S o t h a t t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r c o u l d f i n a li s e t h e r e p o r t .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

H m . Yo u m a d e r e f e r e n c e a li t tl e e a r li e r o n t o – y o u

s a i d s o m e t h in g a l o n g t h e li n e s th a t a p p a r e n t ly P R A S A w a s n o t
c o o p e r a ti n g w i t h th e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r.

Is t h a t w h a t e m e r g e d fr o m t h e

m e d i a r e p o r ts o r is th a t s o m e t h in g y o u h e a r d fr o m e ls e w h e r e ?

Or was

that much later?
M R M O L E F E : W e l l th a t m a t t e r i s d e a lt w i t h i n t h e r e p o r t o f t h e P u b l ic

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
P r o t e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M O L E F E : B u t b e s id e s t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

T h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r h a d r e q u e s t e d a m e e ti n g w i th m e

a n d I d ir e c t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R M O L E F E : To a p p e a l to u s to c o o p e r a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR MOLEFE:

O n t h e i s s u e s o n t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t s h e h a d w a n t e d

a n s w e r e d a n d t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t s h e h a d r e q u e s t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
MR MOLEFE:

A n d t h a t m e e ti n g w o u ld h a v e t a k e n p la c e o n t h e 2 0 –

around the 26 June 2015.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A t th is s t a g e w h e n y o u h e a r d a b o u t a P r e l i m in a r y
R e p o r t o f t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r d i d y o u o r a n y – s o r r y w e r e th e B o a r d
m e m b e r s a ls o a w a r e t h a t th e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a r e p o r t fr o m t h e P u b l ic
Protector?
20

M R M O L E F E : I w o u l d n o t s a y e v e r y m e m b e r o f th e B o a r d b u t I r e c a ll
o n e o f th e d ir e c t o r s r a is in g i t . W h a t I c a n n o t c o n fir m i s w h e t h e r i t w a s
in a m e e t in g o f t h e B o a r d o r i t w a s o n l y d u r in g m y d is c u s s i o n w it h h e r.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I a m – I a m a s k in g i n th is c o n t e x t M r M o l e fe i n

a r o u n d 2 0 1 4 y o u w il l r e c a ll t h a t t h e t h e n P u b li c P r o te c t o r A d v o c a te
T h u li M a d o n s e l a h a d p u b l is h e d th e N k a n d l a R e p o r t .

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MR MOLEF E: 2014?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r.
M R M O L E F E : W a s it in 2 0 1 4 ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : To t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e i t w a s 2 0 1 3 o r 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i t w a s l a t e r. W a s t h e N k a n d la R e p o r t n o t in …
M R M O L E F E : I w o u l d n o t – I k n o w th e r e w a s a – t h a t r e p o r t c a ll e d t h e
Captured. I think that this was…
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t w a s 2 0 1 7 .
M R M O L E F E : O h t h a t is a d i ff e r e n t o n e .
10

A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
MR MOLEF E: No I was not aware of …
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d I a m o n l y p u t ti n g it in t h e c o n te x t.
M R M O L E F E : B e c a u s e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I a m p u t t in g i t i n t h i s c o n t e x t .

T h e P u b li c

P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t o n N k a n d l a c r e a t e d a m a j o r s t o r m i n o u r p o li ti c a l
s p a c e b e c a u s e p e o p le w e r e s a y i n g , h e r e i s s o m e b o d y w h o i s e n s u r i n g
c le a n g o v e r n m e n t in o u r c o u n t r y a n d i s h o ld i n g t h e h o ld e r o f t h e
h i g h e s t o ffi c e a c c o u n t a b l e . W h e n e v e r i t w a s w o u l d y o u a g r e e w i th m e
t h a t th a t w a s w h a t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t o n N k a n d l a w a s ?
20

M R M O L E F E : C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n o t w a n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : C o n fir m a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : B e c a u s e I r e a ll y c a n n o t r e c o l le c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
M R M O L E F E : A t t h i s s ta g e a s I a m s i t ti n g h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MOLEFE:

B u t I w o u l d n o t b e s u r p r i s e d t h a t t h a t is w h a t i t w o u ld

h a v e s a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w I a s k i n t h a t – i n t h is c o n t e x t y o u a r e a w a r e
t h a t t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r i s in v e s t i g a t in g c o m p l a i n ts a b o u t P R A S A
w h e t h e r fr o m P R A S A p e o p l e o r fr o m o u ts id e r s .

Did you make any

e n q u ir e s b u t w h a t a r e t h o s e c o m p l a i n ts ? W h a t is i t th a t is lik e ly f o r –
10

is

PRASA

lik e ly

to

be

embarrassed

by

the

o u tc o m e

of

th o s e

in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n I d i d a s k .

I did say I had a one on one

d is c u s s io n w i t h t h e G r o u p C E O t o s a y t h e r e h a s b e e n t h e s e m e d i a
reports.

Ta k e u s a s th e B o a r d o r t a k e m e in t o c o n f i d e n c e .

have such a report?

Do you

W h a t a r e th e a l l e g a ti o n s a n d w h a t a r e t h e

q u e s t io n s t h a t w e s h o u l d a n s w e r ? I n e v e r g o t a p r o p e r r e s p o n s e u n t il
o n ly d u r i n g M a r c h th e s a m e y e a r w h e n a t t h e ti m e a s w e w e r e
d is c u s s in g I a l s o r e c e iv e d a l e t t e r a d v i s in g m e t h a t M r M o n t a n a is
r e s ig n in g . H e i s w il li n g t o s e r v e s i x m o n t h s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e ll l e t u s g o b a c k t o t h a t o n e o n o n e

d is c u s s io n y o u h a d w it h h i m w h e n y o u a s k e d t h a t – th is r e p o r t .
M R M O L E F E : J a . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u a r e a b l e to j u s t g i v e m e – t e l l m e t h e c o n t e n t o f
t h e d is c u s s i o n h o w i t – h o w i t w e n t ? I f y o u a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r. T h is
is w h a t y o u a s k e d h i m . Is t h e r e s u c h a r e p o r t , if t h e r e is p le a s e c a n I

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h a v e a c o p y ? W h a t a r e t h e c o m p l a i n ts ? W h a t a r e t h e a l l e g a ti o n s a n d
w h a t w a s h i s r e s p o n s e ? I k n o w y o u s a y y o u d id n o t g e t – I d o n o t k n o w
if s a id a s tr a ig h t a n s w e r b u t I ju s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w h e
responded.
MR MOLEFE:

C e r t a in – c e r t a i n l y C h a i r p e r s o n .

The approach was

t h e r e h a s b e e n t h e s e r e p o r t s in t h e m e d ia a b o u t th e i m p e n d i n g fi n a l
r e p o r t a n d t h e f a c t t h a t P R A S A w a s g iv e n t h e In t e r i m R e p o r t to r e s p o n d
t o i n r e s p e c t o f q u e s ti o n s w h ic h w e r e r a i s e d i n t h a t r e p o r t .

Can you

e x p l a i n to m e w h e t h e r y o u h a v e th a t r e p o r t a n d i f y o u d o w h y is i t th a t
10

y o u h a v e n o t g iv e n t h a t r e p o r t t o th e B o a r d ? Is t h e r e a d e fi c i t o f tr u s t
b e t w e e n y o u a n d m e a s t h e C h a ir m a n – i n m y c a p a c i ty a s C h a i r m a n o f
t h e B o a r d o r d o y o u h a v e d i ffic u l t ie s o f t r u s t b e t w e e n y o u r s e lf a n d th e
B o a r d o f C o n tr o l o f t h e c o m p a n y ? S o th is is h o w t h e d is c u s s i o n w e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : A n d th e n o f c o u r s e h e s a y s , n o I – t h e r e a r e n o is s u e s o f
tr u s t . S o th e n t h e n e x t s t e p i s t h e n y o u m u s t g i v e u s t h e r e p o r t . Yo u
n e e d t o g i v e t h a t r e p o r t . It d i d n o t c o m e a t th a t t i m e
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e c o n fir m t h a t th e r e w a s s u c h a r e p o r t o r d i d h e
n o t c o n fir m ?

20

M R M O L E F E : H e c o n f ir m e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

A n d h e s a y s , w e – y o u k n o w I h a v e r e s p o n d e d to th e

m a n y q u e s ti o n s t h a t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c to r a s k e d . S o h e s a y s t h a t a n d –
b u t h e d o e s n o t g iv e u s th e r e p o r t a n d t h a t s t a g e .
h i m u n ti l f i n a lly I g o t it in M a r c h .

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S o I k e e p a s k in g

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w a t t h e m e e ti n g h e s a y s , I r e s p o n d e d to th e

q u e s t io n s fr o m t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r b u t d o e s h e t e l l y o u w h a t t h e
a l le g a ti o n s w e r e o r d o e s h e n o t ? A s fa r a s y o u r e m e m b e r.
M R M O L E F E : H e d o e s n o t d e a l w i th t h e d e t a i ls o f a ll e g a t io n s s a v e t o
s a y t h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r r e li e d o n f a ls e r e p o r t s a n d a ll e g a ti o n s
g iv e n to h e r b y e x p e l le d m e m b e r s o f th e S o u t h A fr i c a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a n s p o r t …
M R M O L E F E : Tr a n s p o r t a n d A l li e d W o r k e r s U n i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
10

A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t t h e n y o u d o g e t t h e r e p o r t a n d th is w a s o n t h e
o c c a s i o n o f th e m e m o r i a l s e r v ic e f o r th e l a te M in is t e r C o l li n C h a b a n e ?
I f y o u lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 2 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
M R M O L E F E : I t is c o r r e c t S ir I r e c a ll t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d y o u s a y y o u r e c e iv e d i t a t th e s a m e ti m e a s
w h e n y o u r e c e i v e d w h a t w e h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a s M r M o n ta n a ’s l e t te r o f
r e s ig n a ti o n ?
M R M O L E F E : I t is c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR MOLEFE:

20

A s h e w a s g iv i n g m e th e f il e h e a ls o g a v e m e a n

e n v e l o p e w h ic h h e s a i d , d o n o t r e a d it n o w y o u c a n r e a d it la t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

At home because now we are in a hurry to go to the

m e m o r i a l s e r v ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M O L E F E : O f M i n is te r – th e l a t e Mi n is t e r C o ll in s C h a b a n e .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : C h a b a n e . Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w h e t h e n o n t h a t o c c a s i o n Mr M o le f e g a v e y o u
t w o d o c u m e n ts .

T h a t l e t te r a n d t h e I n t e r i m R e p o r t t h a t t h e P u b l ic

P r o t e c t o r h a d s e n t t o h i m a n d w h ic h h e h a s k e p t a w a y f r o m y o u fo r a
li t tl e w h il e .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . B u t th e f il e a ls o in c l u d e d

e x c h a n g e s o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n h i m a n d t h e o ff ic e o f th e P u b l ic
P r o t e c t o r.

M y r e c o l le c ti o n is t h a t th e r e w o u ld a ls o h a v e b e e n l e tt e r s

w h ic h h a d b e e n a d d r e s s e d t o t h e C h a ir t h e p r e v i o u s C h a ir, t h e
10

immediate …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r p r e d e c e s s o r ?
MR MOLEFE:

M y p r e d e c e s s o r, m y i m m e d i a t e p r e d e c e s s o r a n d h i s

r e p l ie s t o th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w w h e n d i d y o u f ir s t r e a d th e In t e r i m R e p o r t ?
MR MOLEFE:

I read the Interim Report I cannot put a date on it but

s h o r tl y a f te r I – I h a d r e c e iv e d i t .

P a r t o f t h e d i ffic u lt i e s th a t w e r e –

you had that memorial service and we were going to drive.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : Tr a v e l t o th e v il la g e o f f o r m e r M in is t e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : C o ll i n s C h a b a n e w h o w a s l a i d . S o i t is p r o b a b l e th a t I
w o u ld h a v e r e a d t h a t r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f e w d a y s l a t e r.
M R M O L E F E : A f e w d a y s la t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

But when you – when you got whether it was a

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fi le o r w h a t e v e r d o c u m e n t s f r o m t h e G C E O w h i c h h a d t h is r e p o r t d i d
y o u a l s o g e t h is a n s w e r s to th e q u e s ti o n s t h a t h e t o ld y o u a b o u t h e h a d
g iv e n to t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ?
M R M O L E F E : T h e – h is l e t t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MOLEFE:

I n c lu d e d w h a t h e c a ll e d th e a n s w e r s b u t t h e y w e r e n o t

r e a l ly r e s p o n d i n g t o …
CHAIRPERSON: The questions.
MR MOLEFE:
10

T h e q u e s ti o n s C h a ir m a n t o t h e e n q u i r y o f th e P u b l ic

P r o t e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MOLEFE: And to the extent that some document would have been
g iv e n th e y w e r e – th e y d i d n o t a p p e a r t o b e a u t h e n t ic d o c u m e n t s s o
t h e r e w a s n o b o d y t o a u t h e n ti c a t e t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I s – w a s t h a t y o u r i m p r e s s io n o f t h e d o c u m e n ts in
t h e fi l e t h a t M r M o n ta n a g a v e to y o u ?
M R M O L E F E : Th a t w a s m y i m p r e s s i o n b u t o f c o u r s e I m u s t s a y t h a t I
w o u ld h a v e a ls o b e e n i n fl u e n c e d b y m y s u b s e q u e n t m e e t i n g w i th t h e

20

P u b l ic Pr o te c to r.

B e c a u s e t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c t o r th e n d e a l t w i t h t h o s e

m a t t e r s fu n d a m e n t a l ly r a is e d a b o u t e l e v e n q u e s t i o n s w h ic h h a d n o t
adequately been responded to.

B u t h e a ls o s a id b e s i d e s th e s e

q u e s t io n s t h e d o c u m e n t s I h a v e b e e n g iv e n I c a n n o t r e ly o n . B e c a u s e
t h e y d o n o t a p p e a r t o b e a u th e n tic a n d P R A S A i s n o t w ill i n g to
a u t h e n t ic a te t h e m . A n d o f c o u r s e I m u s t s a y th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r h a d

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
written to a number of other employees and or managers of PRASA but
o f c o u r s e e v e r y t h i n g w a s g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e o ffi c e o f t h e G r o u p C E O
w h o d id n o t f a v o u r t h e a ff e c t e d in d i v i d u a ls w i t h t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
that he had received.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Mr M o l e f e I w a n t t o c o m e b a c k t o y o u r r e a c ti o n t o
t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s f in a l r e p o r t .

B u t j u s t i n r e s p e c t o f th e I n t e r i m

R e p o r t w h i c h y o u n o w r e a d I ta k e it w o u ld b e a t la t e s t e a r ly i n A p r i l
2 0 1 5 w h a t w a s y o u r r e a c ti o n to t h a t ? A n d I d o n o t n e e d y o u t o s a y i t I
m e a n t o e x p a n d o n i t b u t w a s i t o n e o f s u r p r i s e , w a s i t o n e o f w e ll t h e r e
10

is n o t to o m u c h w r o n g ? J u s t y o u r i n it i a l r e a c ti o n t o th a t .
MR MOLEFE:

T h e – w e ll it w a s q u it e c l e a r t h a t t h e c r i ti c a l is s u e s in

t h e In t e r i m R e p o r t r e l a te d t o ir r e g u l a r i t ie s p e r t a i n in g t o p r o c u r e m e n t ,
a p p lic a ti o n o f d i s c ip li n a r y p r o c e d u r e s o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d t h e m a n n e r
c o n tr o ls w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d s o is s u e s o f m a l a d m i n is tr a t i o n .
N a t u r a l ly I c o n c l u d e d t h a t t h e – t h e r e w a s a lo t th a t w e n e e d e d t o – t o
fi x o r t o a n s w e r t o . I m u s t a ls o h a s t e n t o s a y C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h e r e
h a s a lr e a d y b e e n a c o n t e x t t o th is a n d t h a t c o n te x t is w h a t h a p p e n e d
o n t h e 2 7 N o v e m b e r a n d s u b s e q u e n t m e e ti n g h e l d in F e b r u a r y o f th e
B o a r d a s w e l l a s th e – t h e th e n Te n d e r R e p o r t t h a t t h e B o a r d r e c e iv e d .
20

S o c le a r ly t h e r e fo r e th e r e w a s n o w a y i n w h ic h l o o k i n g a t t h a t r e p o r t I
c o u l d s a y th e r e w a s n o th i n g w r o n g w i t h i t .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I n fa c t i t – I m e a n n o b o d y w o u l d s a y th e r e i s

n o t h i n g w r o n g b e c a u s e t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r e v e n in th e I n t e r i m R e p o r t
f o u n d a g r e a t d e a l w r o n g . W o u l d th a t b e c o r r e c t ?
MR MOLEF E: That is correct.

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A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w y o u th e n s a y t h a t a f t e r t h e s e e x c h a n g e s

b e t w e e n y o u a n d M r M o n ta n a r e l a ti n g to t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r ’s I n te r i m
R e p o r t a n d h i s l e tt e r o f r e s ig n a ti o n t h a t y o u w e r e in K n y s n a w h e n M r
M o n ta n a a s k e d y o u f o r a m e e t in g . W o u l d y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g
please?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n I t h in k w e a r e s e p a r a t i n g th e t w o s o th a t

there is no confusion.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M O L E F E : T h e – t h e m e e t in g w i th M r M o n t a n a r e l a ti n g t o w h e th e r
10

h e h a d o r d i d n o t h a v e t h e I n te r i m R e p o r t o f t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r i s
separate.
CHAIRPERSON: Was a one on one.
M R M O L E F E : O n e o n o n e . A n d th e n o f c o u r s e la t e r o n i n A p r i l w h e n I
w a s a w a y h e c a l le d h e a s k e d t o s e e m e i n K n y s n a a n d t o w h ic h I
agreed.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M R M O L E F E : I n t h a t m e e ti n g – w e ll I m u s t s a y th a t M r M o n t a n a is a
p r o l if ic w r i t e r. S o h e h a d – h e h a d w r it t e n a l e n g t h y d o c u m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t te r o r m e m o r a n d u m .

20

MR MOLEFE:

J a o n t h e is s u e s t h a t h e w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t .

But

c e n tr a l t o t h e is s u e s th a t h e w a s r a is i n g w o u l d b e e it h e r r e l a ti n g t o
w h a t h e c o n s id e r e d t o u n a c c e p t a b le c o n d u c t b y c e r t a in d ir e c t o r s o r
what

he

b e li e v e d

is

my

s ty le

of

leadership

that

made

him

u n c o m f o r t a b l e . B u t h e w a s b a s ic a l ly s a y i n g y o u h a v e b e e n a p p o i n te d , I
r e s p e c t y o u , y o u a r e m y l e a d e r b u t I w a s n o t e v e n c o n s u lt e d w h e n

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t h e s e a p p o in t m e n ts w e r e d o n e a n d y o u – y o u h a v e d o n e q u i te a n u m b e r
o f t h in g s t h a t I a m u n h a p p y w i t h . A m o n g s t t h e m y o u w e n t a n d h a v e a
d is c u s s io n w i t h th e W e b b e r W e n tz e l l a w y e r s I w a s n o t th e r e . Yo u d i d
n o t e v e n a s k m e f ir s t . Yo u a s k e d f o r a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e C E O o f G i b e la
C o n s o r t iu m M r M a r k G r a n g e r.

Yo u – I h a v e b e e n o b s e r v in g t h e

b e h a v io u r o f th is b o a r d a n d I t h i n k t h a t I a m c o n v in c e d th a t t h e e x tr a
( in d is ti n c t) p u r p o s e o f t h is B o a r d ’s a p p o i n t m e n t w a s r e a l ly t o g e t r i d o f
m e . I ts m a n d a te w a s t o g e t r i d o f m e a s t h e G C E o f P R A S A . A n d h e
r a i s e d c o n c e r n a l s o a b o u t t h e M i n is te r. S o i t w a s a s I s a y a li t a n y o f
10

c o m p la i n t s . L o ts o f t h i n g s y o u k n o w. A lo t a n d lo t . A n d th e n o f c o u r s e
t h e r e w a s a l s o th e c o m p l a in t th a t c e r t a in d ir e c t o r s w h o fo r e x a m p l e th e
C h a ir o f t h e A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e h e – t h e C h a ir o f H e a l t h a n d
S a f e t y C o m m i t t e e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t n a m e t h a t th e y w e r e
b e h a v in g in a m a n n e r th a t h e c o n s i d e r e d d is r e s p e c tf u l y o u k n o w t o h i m .
The – so the – there were a lot of these – these sort of things and of
c o u r s e I d i d s a y to h i m , y o u r i m p r e s s i o n a b o u t u s is w r o n g . W e a r e n o t
in t e n t – w e a r e n o t h e r e t o r e m o v e th e G r o u p C E O fr o m t h e c o m p a n y.
B u t e v e n a t t h a t s ta g e i t w a s a lr e a d y a n a c a d e m ic e x e r c is e C h a ir p e r s o n
b e c a u s e t h e m a n h a d a lr e a d y s u b m i t te d a le t t e r i n f o r m i n g u s th a t h e i s

20

n o t g o in g t o h a v e h is c o n tr a c t e x te n d e d . H e h a s r e s i g n e d a n d I d i d s a y
t h a t e v e n to u s e t h e w o r d r e s i g n a t io n is a m is n o m e r b e c a u s e w h e n th e
c o n tr a c t e n d s i t e n d s . S o b a s ic a l ly w e – w e h a d a g r e e d w i th h i m t h a t
h e c o u l d s e r v e a n o t h e r s i x m o n t h s t o h e l p u s to g e t a n e w C E O . S o i t
is s t r a n g e th a t a p e r s o n w h o s a y s , I a m n o t r e n e w i n g m y c o n tr a c t , I a m
g o i n g , b u t w o u l d r a t h e r h a v e f o r t h i s s h o r t p e r io d c o n f lic t a n d t e n s i o n s .

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A n d i t d o e s n o t s a y b e c a u s e th e r e a r e t h e s e te n s i o n s I a m l e a v in g n o w.
H e w a n t s t o s t a y th e r e b u t h e w a n ts t h e t e n s i o n s to c o n ti n u e , c o n f li c ts
t o c o n ti n u e . I d o n e e d t o s a y t h a t a r o u n d t h a t p e r i o d a l s o th e r e w e r e
lo ts o f y o u k n o w p u b l ic s t a t e m e n t o r i n te r v ie w s b y M r M o n t a n a . A n d b y
t h a t t i m e th e – w h a t w a s f u n d a m e n t a lly a c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e is s u e
d e m a n d e d e x e c u t e d b y t h e B o a r d a n d th e s t a n d a r d s t o w h ic h t h e B o a r d
w a n t e d t o h o l d i ts G r o u p C E O w a s r e d u c e d t o n o , n o w e a r e c o n t e s ti n g
f o r p o w e r i t is m e v e r s u s M o le f e . A n d th e r e w e r e e x t e n s iv e r e p o r ts t h a t
t h e n p o r tr a y e d it a s th is s o t h a t y o u r e d u c e w h a t i s f u n d a m e n ta ll y a
10

p r o b le m t h a t a ff e c ts th is o r g a n i s a t io n a n d i t is n o t a p r o b le m p e r s e
s u c k e d fr o m t h e a i r i t is a p r o b l e m t h a t fi n d s i t s g e n e s i s fr o m r e p o r ts ,
d o c u m e n ts y o u k n o w, fl a w e d c o n tr a c ts , a l l o f th e s e t h i n g s th a t I h a v e
r e fe r r e d e a r l ie r b u t th a t w a s s h i f t e d , n o y o u d o it b e c a u s e y o u – y o u d o
n o t lik e m e . B e c a u s e I n e e d t o s a y a l s o o n e o f t h e is s u e s r a i s e d w a s
t h a t w h e n I a t te n d e d a n d F C I P – F – F in a n c e
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

And investment.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

And investment.

Pr o c u r e m e n t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
I n v e s t m e n t , c a p i ta l i n v e s t m e n t a n d p r o c u r e m e n t

committee.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Mmm.
B u t I s h o u ld n o t h a v e a t t e n d e d th a t m e e ti n g a n d i n t h e

m e e ti n g , w h ic h o f c o u r s e t h e G C E w a s p r e s e n t i n , h e s a y s I a m n o t a
m e m b e r o f th a t c o m m i t t e e , t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d is n o t a
m e m b e r o f t h i s c o m m i t t e e , b u t h e w a s t h e o n e w h o w a s a s k in g t h e m o s t

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d i ff ic u l t q u e s t i o n s , i t w a s q u i t e c le a r t o m e th a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f th e
B o a r d w a s a lr e a d y b y t h a t t i m e l a y i n g a b a s is fo r m y d i s m is s a l .
N o w in m a n y c o m p a n i e s t h a t I h a v e b e e n a d i r e c t o r o r
C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d i t i s t a k e n t h a t t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d h a s e x
o ff ic io s t a t u s , c a n a t t e n d a m e e t in g o f a n y c o m m i t t e e a n d h e w i ll h a v e
s p e a k i n g r i g h t s li k e a n y o t h e r m e m b e r, a n d i t is a ls o g o o d b e c a u s e i t
a s s is ts t o k e e p th e c h a i r p e r s o n in f o r m e d i n a d v a n c e in s te a d o f w a it i n g
o n ly f o r w h e n th e s a id c o m m i t te e is r e p o r ti n g t o t h e B o a r d , s o I a m
m e n ti o n i n g a l l th e s e th i n g s b e c a u s e i t d o e s a p p e a r lik e a t a c e r ta i n
10

p o i n t o n c e M r M o n ta n a h a d t a k e n a v ie w th a t h e i s n o t r e n e w i n g h i s
c o n tr a c t h e b e g a n t o c l u tc h a t t h e s tr a w s t o fi n d r e a s o n s f o r t e n s i o n s t o
b e t h e r e , w i t h i n th e o r g a n is a ti o n , b e c a u s e o r d i n a r i ly y o u d o n ’t d o t h a t i f
y o u h a v e d e c i d e d y o u w a n t t o g o , e s p e c i a lly w h e n y o u m a k e t h i s
d e c is i o n a g a in s t a b a c k d r o p o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d
h a d a p p e a l e d t o y o u a c t u a ll y n o t t o l e a v e t h a t e a r ly.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

I was about to refer to that.

G i v e n t h is a m b i ti o u s m o d e r n i s a t io n p r o g r a m m e w h ic h is

a v e r y h i s to r ic m i s s i o n fo r t h e c o u n tr y, b u t h e d e c i d e d r e g a r d l e s s o f
w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g I a m g o i n g , I h a d p r e v i o u s ly t o l d th e p r e v i o u s
20

C h a ir t h a t I a m n o t w a n t i n g t o s ta y l o n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a s I u n d e r s t a n d p a r t o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g it i s

t h is h e w r o t e a l e tt e r o r w a s i t a m e m o o r w h a t e v e r a h e a d o f y o u r
m e e ti n g w it h h i m w h e r e a m o n g o th e r t h i n g s h e m a d e t h e a c c u s a ti o n
t h a t th is B o a r d , y o u r B o a r d , h a d b e e n a p p o in t e d f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f
g e t t in g r i d o f h i m , is t h a t r i g h t ?

Page 72 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MOLEFE:

H e d i d w r i te a l e t t e r t o m e C h a i r p e r s o n a n d i t i s i n t h e

n o t e s t h a t h e h a d w r it t e n .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
A n d t a k in g m e t h r o u g h t h a t , i n a s e n s e a f o r m o f a n

a g e n d a , b u t a t a la t e r s ta g e w e c a n t a l k a b o u t t h e d o c u m e n t w r i t t e n
w h ic h th e n d e a ls w it h th o s e q u e s t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H e s a y s t h e m i n th e m e e ti n g j a .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t h e s a i d t h is i n th e m e e t in g ?

I n t h e m e e t in g a n d h e s a y s t h i s d e s p i te t h e fa c t t h a t

a ft e r y o u r a p p o in t m e n t a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a n d I th in k fr o m
w h a t y o u s a i d i t w a s t h e fi r s t e n c o u n t e r y o u h a d w i t h h i m a f te r a n
a p p o i n t m e n t w h e r e h e w a s c o n g r a tu la t in g y o u t h a t h e to l d y o u t h a t h e
h a d a lr e a d y to ld t h e p r e v i o u s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t h e w o u ld n o t b e
r e n e w in g h is c o n tr a c t, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u w e r e th e o n e w h o t h e n s a i d y o u w o u l d h a v e

t o s ta y a r o u n d to a s s is t t h e B o a r d .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o i n o t h e r w o r d s o n y o u r a r r iv a l w h e n h e to l d y o u o f

h is p l a n s t o l e a v e y o u w e r e ta lk in g t o h i m o n th e b a s is t h a t w e m i g h t
n e e d y o u f o r s o m e ti m e , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
MR MOLEFE:

I d i d n ’ t e v e n s a y w e m ig h t n e e d y o u C h a ir, I s a i d t h e

o r g a n i s a t io n n e e d s y o u to c a r r y o u t a n a m b i t io n p r o g r a m m e , h o w d o
y o u e x p e c t t h e n e w b o a r d t o c o m e i n t o o ffi c e a n d a s i t c o m e s i n t o
o ffic e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

Page 73 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

. . . th e G r o u p C E O w a l k s o u t .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d p a r t o f th e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k in g is t h a t

w h e n o n e h a s r e g a r d to w h a t y o u s a i d t o h i m o n t h a t o c c a s io n i t i s – i t
d o e s n o t s u p p o r t th e a c c u s a t i o n th a t t h is Bo a r d w a s a p p o i n t e d t o g e t
r id o f h i m .
MR MOLEFE:

I t d o e s n ’ t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
10

Ye s .

Th e fa c ts w o u l d n o t s u p p o r t th a t .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w j u s t r e g a r d i n g t h a t m e e ti n g h e a s y o u p u t i t ,

o r fir s t ly w a s a s h o r t m e e t i n g o r a l o n g m e e ti n g ?
MR MOLEFE:

I t w a s a v e r y lo n g m e e ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n b u t m o s t o f th e

ti m e i t w a s M r M o n t a n a t a lk i n g , h e i s a v e r y a r t ic u l a te p e r s o n a n d h e is
a v e r y g o o d t h in k e r a s w e l l , a n d a s I s a i d h e w r it e s w e ll .

So he was

t a lk in g t h r o u g h . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t s o t h a t I d o n ’ t m i s s t h is th a t m e e t in g w a s j u s t

b e t w e e n th e t w o o f y o u ?
MR MOLEFE:
20

I t w a s j u s t b e t w e e n t h e tw o o f u s , i t w a s o n e o n o n e .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . O k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e v e n u e w a s w h e r e ?
MR MOLEFE:

I t h i n k t h e v e n u e o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s t h e G o l f E s ta t e

c a l l e d S i m o l a , S i m o la I t h i n k G o l f R e s o r t o r G o l f E s ta t e , it i s i n K n y s n a ,
a n d I a m a m e m b e r o f th a t C l u b .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w i t is a fa ir ly l o n g m e e t i n g , M r M o n t a n a m a k e s

Page 74 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
a n u m b e r o f a ll e g a t i o n s a g a in s t y o u , I ju s t w a n t t o d e a l w i th o n e p o in t
w h ic h y o u r a is e d , h e s a y s b u t y o u a n d y o u r b o a r d w e r e a p p o in t e d a n d I
w a s n o t c o n s u l te d , th a t ’s w h a t I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e a li t tl e
w h il e a g o , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:

W h a t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th a t ?

W e l l m y r e s p o n s e t o t h a t is a s i m p l e o n e , a s a

s h a r e h o l d e r w h o a p p o i n ts t h e B o a r d o f D ir e c to r s I m e a n t h e r e is
n o t h i n g I c a n s a y a b o u t it a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w o f a C E O w h o d e t e r m i n e s ,
10

w h o b e c o m e s a d ir e c to r o f th e c o m p a n y th a t h e is th e C E O o f.

I

s u p p o s e o f c o u r s e t h e C E O n o t h in g b a r s h i m o r fr o m n o m in a ti n g o r
g iv i n g n a m e s t o th e s h a r e h o ld e r t o s a y a s y o u c o n s id e r t h e d ir e c to r s
c o n s i d e r t h e s e n a m e s a s w e ll , a n d o f c o u r s e g i v i n g p r o f it s a n d
m o t iv a t i o n f o r e a c h o n e o f t h e n a m e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mmm, mmm.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

B u t y o u e v e n a t t h a t s t a g e M r M o le f e w e r e

e x p e r i e n c e d i n t h e s e m a t t e r s , y o u k n o w h o w b o a r d s a r e a p p o i n te d , y o u
k n o w, a s y o u h a v e a r tic u la t e d n o w t h e p o w e r s o f t h e C E O o n t h e o n e
h a n d a n d th e B o a r d o n t h e o t h e r. A s a m a t t e r o f c o r r e c t n e s s , c o r r e c t
20

p r o c e d u r e a n d . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] w a s h e r i g h t t o s a y h e o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n
consulted?
MR MOLEFE:

Not at all, he was not right to have said so, and I must

s a y C h a ir p e r s o n I d i d n ’ t th in k th a t f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e I h a d b e e n
C h a ir p e r s o n o f b y t h a t ti m e a lr e a d y t h r e e S t a te O w n e d c o m p a n ie s , th e
A r m a m e n ts C o o p e r a t i o n o f S o u t h A fr i c a , A R M S C O R , I h a d b e e n t h e

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
C h a ir m a n o f P e tr o l e u m a n d G a s C o r p o r a t i o n o f S o u t h A f r ic a , P e tr o S A ,
a n d I j a P R A S A w a s t h e th ir d o n e b u t I h a d a ls o s e r v e d o n th e B o a r d o f
C E F G r o u p o f C o m p a n ie s , w h ic h is w h a t u s e d to b e k n o w n a s t h e
C e n tr a l E n e r g y F u n d , I h a d s e r v e d a ls o a lr e a d y o n t h e B o a r d o f th e
S tr a t e g ic F u e l Fu n d o f t h e G o v e r n m e n t o f t h e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A f r ic a .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

A n d y o u k n e w .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
S o I k n e w h o w B o a r d s a r e a p p o i n t e d , p r o c e d u r e s , th e

r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d r o l e s o f t h e B o a r d v is - a - v i s t h e C E O .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d y o u d i d n o t k n o w o f a n y S t a te O w n e d E n ti ty o r

a n y e v e n p r i v a t e s e c t o r m a y b e w h e r e th e r e w a s a n o b li g a t i o n o n t h e
p a r t o f t h e a p p o i n ti n g a u th o r it y t o c o n s u l t t h e C E O a b o u t

who the

b o a r d m e m b e r s s h o u l d b e , o th e r t h a n a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e C E O m i g h t
ju s t p u t n a m e s f o r c o n s i d e r a t io n a n d th a t ’s a ll ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , I h a d n o p r e c e d e n t

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
D e r i v i n g fr o m a n y g o v e r n m e n t o r l e g is l a t iv e i n s tr u m e n t

w h ic h w o u ld h a v e e m p o w e r e d th e G r o u p C E O t o m a k e a d e t e r m i n a t i o n
a s t o w h o b e c o m e s a d i r e c t o r i n th e c o m p a n y, w h e th e r i n S t a te O w n e d
20

C o m p a n ie s o r i n p r iv a t e c o m p a n i e s .

T h e o n ly t i m e w h e n t h a t c o u ld

a r i s e is i f i t i s a p r i v a t e c o m p a n y w h e r e t h e C E O i s t h e m a jo r i ty
s h a r e h o l d e r a n d d e c i d e s t h a t I w a n t m o r e p e o p l e o r i t is a fa m i ly
b u s i n e s s a n d w a n t to b r in g i n p e o p l e o n t o t h e B o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mmm, m mm, yes.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w d i d y o u s a y t o Mr M o n t a n a l o o k m a n w h y

Page 76 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
w o u ld t h e M i n i s te r w a n t t o c o n s u lt y o u b e f o r e h e a p p o i n t s u s ?
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t r e p e a t t h e q u e s t i o n fo r m e .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

D i d y o u s a y to M r M o n ta n a b u t l o o k w h y w o u ld

t h e M i n i s t e r w a n t to c o n s u l t y o u , t h a t d o e s n ’ t h a p p e n a n y w h e r e .
MR MOLEFE:

I d i d n o t s a y s o b u t c e r t a i n th i n g s a r e b e t t e r l e ft u n s a i d .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I was just going to come to that. Now he makes

t h is n u m b e r o f o t h e r a l l e g a ti o n s a g a in s t y o u , y o u a s s u r e h i m t h a t l o o k
y o u r a g e n d a w a s n o t t o g e t r id o f h i m .
MR MOLEFE:
10

Ja.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

B u t t h e o t h e r a l le g a t i o n s n o w h o w d id y o u

r e s p o n d t o th e o t h e r a l l e g a ti o n s , y o u s a y h e d id n o t . .. [ in d is ti n c t ] .
H o w d i d y o u r e s p o n d t o t h a t?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e w e r e – w e l l m a y b e w h il s t I a m h e r e I m u s t a ls o

in tr o d u c e a n o t h e r a l l e g a ti o n t h a t a r o s e . H is o t h e r c o n c e r n w a s t h a t th e
B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s , t h e d ir e c t o r s w o u l d w a n t t o h a v e a n i n - c o m m i t t e e
m e e ti n g o f n o n - e x e c u tiv e d ir e c t o r w i t h o u t h i m b e i n g t h e r e .
N o w th a t i s p r o v id e d f o r, I m e a n i t is a l lo w e d in t h e K i n g
R e p o r t a n d s o o n , i f t h e d ir e c t o r s w a n t t o d is c u s s a m o n g s t t h e m s e lv e s
matters
20

that

they

don’t

want

to

c o lo u r e d

by

th e

in f lu e n c e

of

m a n a g e m e n t t h e y d o t h a t , s o t h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l s u c h m e e ti n g s a n d h e
s a y s n o h e is n o t h a p p y a b o u t t h a t . T h e o t h e r is s u e h e r a is e d w a s t h a t
t h e C h a ir m a n w a s n o t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y b e fo r e th a t w a s h is c o m p l a in t i n r e g a r d t o

a s i t u a t io n w h e r e b o a r d m e m b e r s s i t a l o n e in c o m m i t t e e s t o d is c u s s
c e r t a i n i s s u e s w i th o u t a n y b o d y f r o m m a n a g e m e n t o r w a s h is c o m p la i n t

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
t h a t B o a r d m e m b e r s i n c o m m i t t e e s w e r e d is c u s s i n g m a t t e r s in t h e
p r e s e n c e o f s o m e m e m b e r s o f t h e m a n a g e m e n t?
MR MOLEFE:

L e t m e f ir s t e x p la i n C h a i r p e r s o n w h a t I m e a n w h e n I

t a lk o f i n - c o m m i t t e e .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
I n - c o m m i t t e e m e a n s a m e e t in g w h e r e c e r t a i n p e o p l e

may not sit but which is a

m e e t in g o f th e d ir e c t o r s o n th e i r o w n

b e c a u s e o f is s u e s t h e y w a n te d to c o n s id e r o n t h e ir o w n , w h ic h i s s u e s
a n y w a y in a fo r m a l b o a r d m e e ti n g w o u l d b e t a b l e d a s w e l l .
10

S o th e in - c o m m i t t e e d o e s n o t r e f e r t o c o m m i t te e s o f t h e B o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , i t i n c lu d e s o t h e r p e o p l e w h o o t h e r w is e d o n ’ t

b e l o n g to t h o s e – th e B o a r d s .
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , j a , th a t ’s r ig h t .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

I s w h y a r e y o u m e e ti n g . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s s o h i s c o m p l a i n t .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

W h y a r e y o u m e e t in g w i t h my t e a m s . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

. . . a n d y o u d o n ’ t m e e t , a r e y o u a lr e a d y s u s p ic i o u s o f t h e

B o a r d b u t w h y a r e y o u m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , o k a y, o k a y, th a n k y o u .

Yo u w e r e a b o u t t o d e a l

w i t h a n o th e r p o i n t w h e n I i n te r r u p t e d y o u i n r e g a r d t o M r M o l e fe , I m a y
h a v e c a u s e d y o u to f o r g e t th e p o in t y o u w e r e a b o u t t o d e a l w i t h , b u t I
in t e r r u p t e d y o u w h i le y o u w e r e ta k i n g t h e i s s u e fu r t h e r.
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s a s k e d w h a t w a s m y r e s p o n s e to t h is

t h a t I c a l le d a li t a n y o f c o m p la i n t s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Page 78 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MOLEFE:

A l o n g w e d e a l w i th w h a t c o m e s t o m in d a s I a m s i t ti n g .

CHAIRPERSON:

A lr i g h t , n o t h a t ’s f in e , Mr S o n i w e w ill r e p e a t th e

q u e s t io n i f h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
MR MOLEFE:

B u t t h e g e n e r a l r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t h is p e r c e p t io n s a n d

h is f e a r s w e r e m is p la c e d , i t w a s n o t tr u e .

S e c o n d ly t o t h e e x te n t t h a t

h e w a s a c c u s i n g c e r ta i n d ir e c t o r s , I r e q u e s t e d h i m t o p r e s e n t th a t
r e p o r t , a l l t h o s e c o m p l a i n ts , to t h e B o a r d m e e t in g a n d i n fa c t e v e n
b e f o r e t h e n e x t B o a r d m e e t i n g I a s k e d h i m a r e w e g o i n g to p r e s e n t t h is
d e t a i l e d r e p o r t , s h o u l d I r e p o r t t o t h e B o a r d w h a t y o u s a y, h e s a y s n o
10

you can just say that we have met and I expressed my concerns and so
o n . S o th a t ’s h o w h e p r e s e n t e d , h e d i d n ’ t w a n t t o p r e s e n t th is d e t a i le d
r e p o r t , o f c o u r s e u n til , w e w i ll d e a l w it h i t la t e r o n , w h e n s u d d e n ly w e
s e e s tr a n g e m a n a g e m e n t , w h a t is c a ll e d m a n a g e m e n t r e p o r t to t h e
B o a r d a n d m a k i n g c e r t a i n a l le g a t i o n s a s w e l l, a n d a g a in i t i s l o n g a f t e r
t h e p e r s o n s a id I a m l e a v in g .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y.

And the Board had agreed with him to go, but I agreed

le t ’s w o r k to g e t h e r to s e a r c h f o r y o u r r e p l a c e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Mmm, mmm.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Mr M o l e f e I a m tr y in g t o p i e c e a ll o f t h i s t o g e t h e r

a n d if I c o u l d j u s t a s k y o u t o c o n s i d e r th e fo ll o w i n g , e a r l i e r y o u s a i d
o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s – o n e o f y o u r o b s e r v a ti o n s w a s th a t Mr M o n ta n a
w a s l e a v i n g b u t i n s t e a d o f le a v in g g r a c e f u ll y a n d p e a c e f u l ly h e w a s
c r e a ti n g m o r e s to r m s a n d s tr i fe b e t w e e n h i ms e l f a n d t h e B o a r d .
ju s t tr y i n g t o p a i n t a p ic tu r e , w o u ld t h a t b e c o r r e c t ?

Page 79 of 131

I am

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w I g e t t h e i m p r e s s io n f r o m y o u r r e s p o n s e t o

t h e c o m p l a in ts h e m a d e a n d y o u r m e a s u r e d r e s p o n s e th a t y o u w e r e
tr y i n g t o d o t h e o p p o s i t e , y o u w e r e tr y in g to c a l m th e w a t e r a s i t w e r e
t o s a y w e ’ v e g o t a f e w m o n t h s t o g o l e t’s j u s t t o l e r a t e e a c h o t h e r
w i t h o u t p u t ti n g t h e h o u s e o n fir e a s i t w e r e .
MR MOLEF E: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t t o g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s t io n t h a t M r S o n i a s k e d

b e f o r e th is o n e , w a s y o u r i m p r e s s i o n t h a t M r M o n ta n a w a s tr y i n g t o
10

c r e a te t e n s io n s a n d c o n f lic t b e tw e e n h i m s e l f a n d t h e B o a r d , o r w a s
y o u r i m p r e s s i o n th a t h e w a s tr y i n g to c r e a te c o n f li c t a n d t e n s i o n s
b e t w e e n h i m s e l f a n d y o u r s e l f a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d o r i t is j u s t
t h a t b e in g C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w e r e f ir s t a m o n g e q u a ls i n t e r m s o f t h e
B o a r d b u t it w a s n o t j u s t a b o u t y o u r s e l f , i t w a s m o r e a b o u t t h e B o a r d ,
e v e n th o u g h i t m i g h t s e e m i t w a s te n s i o n b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f a n d h i m t h a t
w a s i n te n d e d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , th e s t a r ti n g p o in t i f

y o u w a n t t o c r e a t e tu r m o i l , a s t o r m g o f o r t h e h e a d o f t h e B o a r d ,
p a r t ic u l a r ly w h e n t h a t p e r s o n is a p u b l ic fi g u r e a n d th e r e f o r e a
20

n e w s m a k e r, y o u d o th a t , b u t h e d i d n ’ t li m i t i t t o t h a t .

I d i d s a y th a t h e

w a s a ls o r a is in g i s s u e s a b o u t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

C e r t a i n d ir e c to r s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

C e r t a i n d ir e c t o r s ?

Ye s .

B u t in t e r e s t in g l y e n o u g h th e r e w e r e o t h e r d ir e c to r s w h o

Page 80 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
w e r e o n t h e B o a r d a n d w h o h a d p r e v io u s l y b e e n w i th h i m i n e it h e r th e
Board of Subsidiaries or main Board.

He found nothing wrong about

t h e m , s o t h e y n e v e r f e a tu r e d i t w a s t h e s e n e w o n e s w h e r e t h e r e w e r e
p r o b le m s w i t h h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w a s y o u r o b s e r v a t io n q u i te c le a r t h a t t h e p e o p l e ,

t h e d ir e c to r s th a t h e s e e m e d t o h a v e i s s u e s w i t h w e r e d i r e c t o r s w h o
h a d n o t b e e n e i th e r a t t h e P R A S A B o a r d o r a t a n B o a r d o f t h e
s u b s i d ia r i e s o f P R A S A p r io r t o y o u r c o m i n g t o P R A S A ?
MR MOLEFE:
10

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

So those were the two camps that he created. In

o th e r w o r d s d is ti n g u is h i n g t h o s e d ir e c t o r s fr o m t h e n e w d ir e c t o r s ?
MR MOLEFE:

W e ll t h a t w a s th e a t te m p t , b u t i t d id n ’t h a p p e n b e c a u s e

t h e B o a r d w a s u n i t e d , b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t a b o u t t h e p e r s o n a li t ie s , t h e
B o a r d w a s m o r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t h o w d o w e g i v e e ff e c t t o th e
p r i n c i p l e s o f g o o d c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e a n d h o w d o w e m a k e s u r e th a t
w e a c c o u n t fo r o u r w o r k a n d w e h o l d th o s e w h o r e p o r t t o u s
a c c o u n t a b l e , t h a t r e a l ly w a s w h a t t h e B o a r d w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
20

N o w t h e r e a f t e r i f I c o u l d j u s t g o c h r o n o lo g i c a ll y

a n d w e a r e g o in g t o d e a l w i th a m a t t e r t h a t i s r a i s e d i n y o u r a ff id a v i t
q u i t p r o m i n e n t ly, n a m e ly M r R o y M o o d le y, b u t t h e r e a f te r t h e r e w e r e t w o
i m p o r t a n t d e v e l o p m e n t s a s s e t o u t in y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
T h e f ir s t t h e f in a l r e p o r t o f t h e P u b li c Pr o te c t o r in r e g a r d t o
t h e c o m p la i n t s l a i d b y P R A S A e m p l o y e e s .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

Page 81 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:

A n d w h e n w a s th a t a b o u t ?

W e l l th e – m y r e c o l l e c ti o n is th a t t h e f i n a l r e p o r t o f th e

P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n o r a b o u t A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:

B y th a t ti m e M r M o n t a n a h a d e x i te d P R A S A .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H e h a d l e f t a t th e e n d o f J u l y o r – o f 2 0 1 5 ?

H e h a d l e ft o n t h e 1 5 t h o f J u ly.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

August 2015.

A n d t h e n th e o t h e r o n e w a s t h a t t h e B o a r d h a d

d e c i d e d t o a p p o i n t a s e t o f a t t o r n e y s to c o n d u c t f o r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a t i o n s
in t o a n u m b e r o f m a t te r. T h a t ’s W e r k s m a n s A t t o r n e y s .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

A n d th e l e t t e r . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
B u t I m u s t s t a t e th a t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e f ir m o f

a tt o r n e y s t o in v e s ti g a t e w a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l
R e p o r t , b e c a u s e i t h a p p e n e d e v e n b e f o r e t h e P u b lic P r o te c to r R e p o r t
c a m e o u t a n d w e s a w w h a t w e r e th e fi n d i n g s a n d r e m e d i a l a c ti o n
r e q u ir e d o f u s , a n d i t is p r e c is e l y f o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t w h e n i t h a p p e n e d
w e a g r e e d t h a t th e s c o p e o f th e s e i n v e s ti g a t o r s s h o u l d i n c l u d e m a tt e r s
20

r a i s e d b y t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. T h a t w o u l d h a v e in c l u d e d C h a ir p e r s o n
a ls o e n g a g in g w i th N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d M i n is t e r s a n d t h e o ffi c i a l s in
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d a g r e e t h a t i n v i e w o f t h e f a c t th a t
P R A S A B o a r d h a d a lr e a d y s ta r t e d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n l e t e v e r y b o d y e ls e
b e c o o r d i n a te d b y t h e B o a r d a s a c e n tr e o f th is i n v e s t ig a t io n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

S o w e h a v e c o m e b a c k t o th o s e b u t t h o s e

Page 82 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
in v e s t i g a t io n s , fr o m W e r k s m a n s a n d fr o m t h e Tr e a s u r y r e s u l t i n t w o
cases, would I be correct, and you deal with them at paragraph 33 of
y o u r r e p o r t , I m e a n o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t , s o r r y.
MR MOLEFE:

M y a ffi d a v i t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

I w o n d e r i f I c a n i n t e r r u p t y o u M r S o n i a n d Mr

M o le f e , b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e a r e t o w a r d s t h e l a s t m o n t h s o f 2 0 1 5 n o w.
C a n I t a k e y o u b a c k to th e t i m e w h e n Mr M o n ta n a a c t u a l ly le f t P R A S A ,
y o u ju s t to l d m e h e l e ft o n th e 1 5 t h o f J u ly.

C a n y o u d e s c r i b e to m e

w h a t th e r e l a t i o n s h i p w a s b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f o n th e o n e s i d e a n d t h e
10

B o a r d , a n d h i m o n t h e o th e r a s a t t h e t i m e o f h is d e p a r tu r e .
MR MOLEFE:

A t t h e ti m e o f M r M o n t a n a ’s d e p a r t u r e t h e d i ff e r e n c e s

b e t w e e n t h e B o a r d a n d h i m h a d c r y s ta ll is e d , i t m e a n s t h e y h a d b e c o m e
in t e r n s a n d w e – m a y b e I s h o u l d l e a v e i t a t th a t , s o t h a t I m a k e s p a c e
f o r f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o t t h a t ’s fi n e , I ju s t w a n te d t o h a v e a n id e a

b e c a u s e w e h a v e b e e n t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e r e la ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e B o a r d
a n d h i m a n d a t a ti m e w h e n h e h a d g iv e n h is l e tt e r o f r e s i g n a ti o n i n
c o d e s a n d th e n I d i d n ’ t h e a r w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a n y t h i n g o f i m p o r t a n c e
t h a t m ig h t h a v e h a p p e n e d a r o u n d t h e t i m e o f h is d e p a r t u r e a n d h o w th e
20

r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s , b u t y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d n o w t h a t a t t h e ti m e h e le f t t h e
t e n s i o n s a n d t h e c h a ll e n g e s h a d c r y s t a l li s e d .
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n l e t m e a ls o r e m i n d y o u t h a t t h e

p u r p o s e f o r M r M o n t a n a s t a y in g o n b e y o n d t h e e x p ir a ti o n o f h is
c o n tr a c t o n t h e 3 1 s t o f M a r c h w a s in o r d e r f o r h i m t o a s s is t t h e B o a r d t o
s a i l a s te a d y s h ip f o r s ix m o n th s , w h i ls t i t s o u g h t to a p p o in t t h e G r o u p

Page 83 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
CEO.
B y th e – b y J u ly o f t h a t y e a r t h e y e a r, t h e J u l y fo ll o w i n g th e
3 1 s t o f M a r c h i t h a d b e c o m e c l e a r t o th e B o a r d o f c o n tr o l o f P R A S A t h a t
t h e p u r p o s e f o r w h ic h w e w e r e k e e p in g M r M o n t a n a w a s n o t b e i n g
s e r v e d b y h is p r e s e n c e b e c a u s e h e is c r e a t in g i n s t a b il i ty, s o m e t h i n g
c o n tr a r y t o w h a t w e s o u g h t t o a c h i e v e b y k e e p i n g h i m f o r s ix m o n t h s .
I t w a s a t t h a t p o i n t w h e n w e s a id lo o k y o u r s t a y h e r e s e r v e s n o p u r p o s e
a n y m o r e , b y t h a t ti m e t h e r e h a d b e e n j u s t a b a r r a g e o f m e d i a r e p o r ts
a tt a c k i n g t h e B o a r d , li t e r a l ly e v e r y w e e k a n d s o w e s a i d l o o k i t w i ll
10

s e r v e t h e c o m p a n y b e t t e r i f w e le t y o u g o n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:
he

tendered

W e l l I a m i n te r e s t e d i n th a t s o j u s t f o r c la r i fic a t io n

– h e g a v e t h e B o a r d h is s o - c a l le d o f r e s ig n a t i o n

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
2014?

And he would, did he do that before the end of

O r w h e n w o u l d h e h a v e g i v e n y o u h is l e t te r o f r e s i g n a ti o n ,

w o u ld it h a v e b e e n b e f o r e th e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 ?
MR MOLEFE:

N o , n o , C h a ir p e r s o n h e g a v e m e th a t l e t te r d u r i n g t h e

m o n th o f M a r c h a n d i t is o n t h a t o c c a s i o n w h e n h e g a v e m e th e i n t e r i m
20

r e p o r t o f t h e P u b li c Pr o te c t o r, th a t fil e .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , o k a y.

A n d in t h a t le t t e r h e s a y s h e is a v a i li n g h i m s e l f t o a s s is t

t h e B o a r d fo r s ix m o n t h s w h i ls t i t is l o o k i n g f o r a n e w C E O . O f c o u r s e
h e c a ll e d t h a t n o tic e , i t i s n o t n o ti c e b e c a u s e th e c o n t r a c t h a d e x p i r e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Page 84 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MOLEFE:

B u t i t w a s n e it h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e , t h e c r i t ic a l is s u e w a s

a r e w e w i ll in g t o s ta y w i t h h i m t o k e e p ; t h e c o m p a n y t o t h e e x t e n t
p o s s i b le , a n d o f c o u r s e y o u w o u ld h a v e a l s o n o t – o r j u s t l e tt i n g h i m g o
a n d s tr u g g l e t o fi n d s o m e b o d y w i t h r e la t iv e a u t h o r i ty in t h e c o m p a n y
S o w e c h o s e th e l a t te r t o k e e p h i m i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , s o h e – t h e 3 1 s t o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 w a s in te r ms th e

la s t d a y o f t h e c o n tr a c t , t h e 3 1 s t o f M a r c h .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

T h a t w a s t h e la s t d a y, b u t b y s p e c ia l a r r a n g e m e n t w h ic h

w a s y o u r r e q u e s t a s t h e B o a r d t h a t h e s t a y o n a n d y o u h a d s a i d f o r s ix
m o n th s t o h e l p y o u fi n d h i s r e p l a c e m e n t .

Is t h a t b e y o n d t h e 3 1 s t o f

March?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t s ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

A t t h a t s t a g e th e c o n t e m p l a ti o n w a s th a t h e w o u l d

stay for six months.
MR MOLEFE:

I t i s s o C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t a f te r a f e w m o n t h s t h e B o a r d b e c a m e

c o n c e r n e d , a s I t h i n k t h a t ’s w h a t y o u a r e t e l li n g m e , b e c a m e c o n c e r n e d
t h a t is c o n ti n u e d s ta y a t P R A S A w a s n ’ t h e l p i n g th e B o a r d i n th e m a n n e r
20

in w h ic h th e B o a r d h a d h o p e d i t w o u l d h e l p th e m .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A n d th e r e fo r e th e B o a r d a s k e d h i m to l e a v e , i s t h a t

r ig h t ?
MR MOLEFE:

To l e a v e , t h a t is c o r r e c t .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t , t h a n k y o u .

Page 85 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w c a n I th e n tu r n to a s p e c ia l to p .. – a s p e c ific

to p ic th a t y o u d e a l w ith in y o ur a ffid a v it, n a me ly, Mr R o y Mo o d ley, PR ASA
a n d y o u rs e lf. An d th a t s ta r ts a t p a r a g r a p h 34 , Mr Mo le fe .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ma y b e b e fo r e th a t I a m s o r r y a g a in Mr So n i. Mr Mo le fe

w h a t w a s Mr Mo n ta n a ’s r e a c tio n w h e n The Bo a r d a s k e d h im to le a v e
b e fo r e th is p a r t o f th e s ix mo n th s th a t h a d b e e n in d ic a te d , w h a t w a s h is
r e a c tio n to th a t?

I f y o u a r e a b le to r e me mb e r ?

D id h e s a id k ind o f

a c c ep t o r th e n h e [in te r v e n e s ].
MR MO LEFE:
10

C h a ir p e r so n , I c a n ’t r e me mb e r r e ac tio n b u t th e r e a lity is

th a t h is r e a c tio n w o u ld n o t h a v e ma tte r e d a fte r th e Bo a r d h a d a r r iv e d a t
th e c o n c lus io n th a t h is s ta y [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

H e is n o t s e r v in g th e p u r p ose o f th e c o mp a n y.

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s .

Ye s .

An d th e p u r p o s e s fo r w h ich th e Bo a r d h a d wa n te d h im to

s ta y. H a d a s k ed h im to s ta y fo r a n a d d itio n a l s ix mo n th s
C H A IR PER SO N :

An d d o y o u r e me mb e r w h e th e r th e Bo a rd h a d jus t

a s k ed h im to s ta y w ith o u t s ta tin g wh y it wa s a sk in g h im. I a m s o r ry, th e
Bo a r d h a d a sk e d h im to le av e b e for e th e e x p iry o f s ix mo n th s w ith o u t
20

s ta tin g w h y it h a d c o me to c o n c lu s ion o r d o y o u r e me mb e r th a t it d id
a c tu a lly te ll h im th a t I a m s o r r y w e th in k y o u r s ta y is n o t s e rv in g th e
p u r p os e fo r w h ic h we w a n te d y ou to s ta y
MR MO LEFE :

We d id in fo r m h im th a t h is – th e limite d s ta y th a t h e h a d

th e r e h e r ig id a lo t o f h a v o c .

H e d id n o t s e r v e th e in te r e s t o f th e

c o mp a ny th e Bo a r d h a s n o w d e c id e d to r e le a s e h im imme d ia te ly.

Page 86 of 131

Th e

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
Bo a r d w o u ld p a y h im. In fa c t w e p r o b a b ly s h o u ld n o t h a v e d o n e s o b u t
w e p a id h im fo r th e b a la n c e o f th e s ix mo n th s [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

O f th e s ix mo n th s , y e s .
Be c a u s e in r e a lity, th a t w a s n o t r e a lly th e n o tic e p e r io d .

C H A IR PER SO N :

O k a y s o - so w h e n h e le ft h e k n e w th a t th e Bo a r d – th e

r e a s on w hy th e Bo a r d as ke d h im to le a ve p r io r to th e e xp ir y o f s ix
mo n th s , w a s th a t th e Bo a r d d id n o t th in k th a t h is c o n tin u o u s s ta y s e r v e d
th e p u r p o s e fo r w h ic h h e h a d b e en a s ke d to s ta y.
MR MO LEFE:
10

Th a t – th a t h e u n d e r s to o d .

C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Mr C h a ir ma n I a m w o n d e r in g a nd ju s t fo r

c o mp le te n es s s ak e , s o y ou d o n o t g e t a s o me w h a t in c o mp le te p ic tu r e . I
c a n r e fe r th e w itn e ss to a p a r tic u la r d o c u me n t w h ic h a dd r es s es
[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N :

Th a t is fin e

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Th is is s u e in- in – in in a d iffe r e n t w a y b u t it

a d d r es s es th is is s ue
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ja

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
20

Mr Mo le fe ma y I a s k y o u to lo ok a t a n n ex u r e PM( 4 )

to y o u r a ffid a v it it a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 4 7 . H av e y o u g o t it in fr o n t o f y o u ?
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s , I h a v e g o t it

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

W h a t is th is d o c u me n t Mr Mo le fe ?

Th e d o c u me n t C ha ir p er s on is a N o tic e o f Te r min a tio n o f

c o n tr ac t o f Mr Mo n ta n a o n , d a te d 1 s t Ap r il 2 0 1 5 .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w ju s t fo r id e n ti fic a tio n p u r p o s es , th is is a le tte r

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
w r itte n b y y o u rs e lf to Mr Mo n ta n a ?
MR MO LEFE :

Th is is s o C h a ir p e r s o n , it is a le t te r w r itte n b y me in

r e s p on s e to h is le tte r w h e r e h e a d v is ed u s th a t h e – h e w a s n o t in te n d in g
to e x te n d h is c o n tr ac t a n d th a t h e wo u ld ass is t th e c o mp an y fo r - fo r s ix
mo n th s . So , in a s e n s e it is a n a c k n o w led g e me n t o f a c c e p ta n c e o f th e
d e c is ion th a t h e h a d ma d e
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Bu t in r e g a r d to th e p e r io d o f n o tic e . Th e le tte r

r e s p on d s to h im n o t a s o n e o f to ta l a c c e p ta nc e b u t o f c o n d itio n a l
a c c ep ta n c e o f th e s ix mo n th p er io d . Ma y I a s k y o u to lo ok a t p a r a gr a p h 2
10

on page 147.
MR MO LEFE:

Pa r a g r a p h 2 o n [in te r v e n es ].

C H A IR PER SO N :

Ma y b e - ma yb e , ma y b e we s h o u ld as k Mr Mo le fe to g iv e

th e g is t o f w h a t h e s a id in th e le tte r to Mr Mo ta n a fir s t a n d th e n w e c a n
g o to th is s p e c ific p a r a gr a p h w ith o u t r e a d in g th e w h o le le tte r s imp ly th e
g is t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w Mr Mo ta n a s a y s to y o u in h is le tte r w h ic h w e

d o n o t h a v e th a t I w a n t to le a v e b u t I w o u ld lik e to s e r v e a s ix mo n th
p e r io d . Yo u r e s p o n d to th a t in th a t in th is l e tte r PM( 4 ) to S S( 6 ) a n d y o u y o u a c k no w le dg e r e c e ip t o f th a t le tte r. In e s s en c e h o w d id y o u r e s p o nd
20

to h is o ffe r th a t h e w ill s e r v e a s ix - mo n th n otic e p e r io d ?
MR MO LEFE:

My r e s p o n se - th e re s po n se w e ll a c tin g on b e ha lf o f th e

Bo a r d w a s to a c c e p t h is r e q u e s t to s ta y o n fo r s ix mo n th s b e c a u s e I s a id
th a t w ill g iv e th e Bo a r d s u ffic ie n t ti me to fi n d a r e p la c e me n t fo r h im a n d
th is is w ha t h e h as a sk e d fo r a s w e ll in h is le tte r b u t w e d id s ay in th e
le tte r – I d id s a y in th e le tte r a ls o th a t s h o u ld th e p r o c es s o f r ec r u itme n t

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
r e s u lt in th e p o s s ib ility o f th e n e w c a n d ida te b e in g a b le to s ta r t e a r lie r
th a t th e e x p ir y o f th e s ix mo n th s , w e w o u ld th e r e fo r e a sk h im to le a v e
e a r ly.
An d th e n w e a lso s a id in o u r le tte r th a t w e w ill c o mmu n ic a te w ith
h im s p e c ific me a s u r es w h a t p r o b a b ly o n e wo u ld c a ll in te r im me a s u r es a n d
d u r in g th is p e r io d w h en h e is th e r e a n d I h a d e a r lie r on a s p a r t o f my
e v id e nc e r e fer r e d to th es e ma tte r s r e latin g to d e le g a te d a u th o r ity,
p r o c ur e me n t a n d th e n e e d fo r th e Bo a r d to b e in fo r me d [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N :
10

MR MO LEFE:

To b e c o n s u lte d .

Th e Bo a r d to a p p r o v e s u ch p r o c ur e me n t me a s ur e s .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE :

In e s s e n c e Mr Mo ta n a c a n I ... [in te r v e n e s ].

An d w e a ls o a s k h im th a t h e w o u ld n o t, h e s h o u ld n o t

ma k e a n y fu r th e r a pp o in tme n ts .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w in e s s e nc e s r e la tin g to Mr Mo ta n a ’s le a v in g

a n d th e p o ss ib le d a te o f h is le av in g .

Yo u g e t a le tte r to s a y I a m n o t

g o in g to r e n e w my c o n tr a c t a t th e e n d o f Ma r c h b u t I w o u ld lik e to s e r v e a
s ix mo n th n o tic e p e r io d th a t w o u ld b e th e e n d o f Au g u s t. Wo u ld th a t b e
c o r re c t? I w a n t to c o n tin u e u n til th e e n d o f Au g u s t.
MR MO LEFE:
20

N o – n o s ix mo n th s fr o m th e [in te r v e n e s ].

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

In Ap r il. I t mig h t b e O c to b e r. Six mo n th s fr o m Ap r il

1 , Ma y, J u n e , J u ly, Au g u s t ... [in te r v e n e s ].
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :

En d o f Se p te mb e r.
En d o f Se p te mb e r ja w o u ld b e s ix mo n th s ja r ig h t.

Fin e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Yo u s a y in p r in c ip le ye s , w e r e se rv e o u r r igh t to a s k

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
y o u to le a v e e a r ly
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s , th a t is c o r r e c t

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is th e e s s e n c e o f th e tw o le t te r s

Th a t is c o r r e c t.

C H A IR PER SO N :

N o w w e d o n o t h a v e o u r a s I u n d e r s ta n d th e p o s itio n

Mr Mo ta n a ’s le tte r, s o c a lle d le tte r o f r e s ign a tio n h e r e in th e b u n d le a s I
u n d e rs ta n d th e p o s itio n .
I s e e th a t y o u r le tte r to h im th a t w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t n o w h as
N o tic e o f Te r min a tio n o f C o n tr a c t a s th e s u b je c t o f th e le t te r.
10

Yo u s e e

th a t?
It s a y s No tic e o f Te r min a tio n , y o ur le tte r to h im.

D id y o u p u t

th a t h e a d in g o r th a t s u b je c t o n y o u r le tte r b e c a us e h is o w n le tte r b o r e th e
s a me s u b jec t o r h o w d id y o u c o me to p u t th a t s u b je c t?
MR MO LEFE:

W h e r e I a m s e a te d n o w, I c a n n o t r e me mb e r e xa c tly ?

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Yo u c a n n o t r e me mb e r ?

W h a t – w h a t e x a c tly w h a t th e s u b h ea d in g th e s u b jec t o f

h is le tte r w a s .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE :
20

Ye s .

Bu t I w o u ld ima g in e th a t I w o u ld h a v e p u t th a t n o tic e o f

te r min a tio n o f c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e th a t is h o w h e w o u ld h a v e fo r mu la te d h is
s u b je c t.
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Su b je c t o n h is le tte r.

H is s u b je c t.

C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s o k a y, s o th is le t te r th a t y o u d id , y o u r le t te r w a s

n o t a n o tic e to h im o f th e te r min a tio n o f th e c o n tr ac t.

Page 90 of 131

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MO LEFE :

J a , it is r e a lly a a c c e p ta nc e o f w h a t h e h a d r e q u e s te d

b e c a us e h e c a lled th a t n o tic e o f te r min a tio n h ims e lf.
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE :

Ye s , y e s o k a y.
Bu t C h a ir p e r s on o n e s to s a ys w e ll y o u d o n o t h a v e

Mr Mo ta n a ’s le tte r o f r e s ig n a tio n b y th e w a y .. .[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

I d id n o t s e e it a n d I h a d [in te r v e n e s ].

I d o n o t w o r k fo r PR ASA a n d my a c c es s to in fo r ma tio n is

n o t e a s y. I h a v e tr ie d to f in d it. I h a v e n o t b e e n a b le to fin d it.
C H A IR PER SO N :
10

Ye s , y e s . N o – n o th a t i s fin e . Th a t w a s n o t me a n t a s

c r itic is m fo r y o u th a t y o u d id n o t s u p p ly u s it w a s ju s t s ta tin g b e c a u s e
o n e I d id n o t s e e i t a n d tw o Mr So n i s e e ms to h a v e s u g g e s t, to h a v e
c o n fir me d th a t w e d o n o t h a v e it b u t it w a s n o t me a n t to s a y th a t y o u
s u p p lie d us w ith y o u r r e sp o n se b u t y o u d id n o t s u p p ly u s w ith h is le tte r to
y o u s o th a t w a s n o t c r itic is m ok a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

N o w le t u s d e a l w ith M r R o y Mo o d ley.

C h a ir p e r s o n b e fo r e we d e a l w ith Mr R o y Mo o d le y, I ju s t

w a n t to c h e c k if c o u n se l in ta lk in g a b o u t th e a p p o in tme n t o f in v e s tig a to r s
a n d ma k in g r e fer e nc e to w o r k men ’s a n d the n s a y ing a c tu a lly tw o ma jor
c a s es a r os e a s a co n s eq u e nc e I d o n o t k n o w wh e th e r y ou w a n te d to
20

c o u ns e l w a n te d to s a y so me th in g a b o u t th a t
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , y e s a n d y o u r e a liz e d th a t h e s e e ms to h a v e mo v e d

fr o m th a t, y e s

[in te r v e n e s ].

MR MO LEFE:

O r ma y b e ... [in te r v e n e s ].

C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , I r e me mb e r s o me th in g lik e th a t a s w e ll.

b e e n a lo n g d a y.

Page 91 of 131

It has

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MO LEFE:

Ma y b e it w a s me n tio n e d b e ca u s e it w ill c o me la te r.

C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s - y e s .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

O k a y s o b o th th o se ma tte r s a r e q u ite imp o r ta n t to

th is C o mmis s io n a n d th e y a r e b o th g o in g to b e d e a lt w ith th e S ifa mb o [? ]
ma tte r th r o u g h y o u , b e c a u s e y ou w e r e th e a p p lic a n t in th e ma t te r n o w w e
w ill d e a l w ith ju d g me n ts in th e H ig h C our t a n d th e Su p r e me Co u r t o f
Ap p e a l th r o u g h y o u a nd p la c e th a t o n r e c ord .
We w ill a ls o d e a l w ith th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r ’s R e p o r t th r o u g h y o u .
Th e Sifa mb o ma t te r w e w ill d e a l w ith th r o u g h Mis s N g oy e b ec a us e s h e
10

file d th e a ffid a v it th a t a r e n o w b e fo r e th is Co mmis s io n .
MR MO LEFE:

O k a y.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Bu t I ju s t h e a d lin e d th e m, Mr Mo n ta n a , a n d p e r h a p s

I s h o u ld h a v e c o mp le te d it to s a y w e a r e g o in g to c o me b a c k to th o s e
ma tte r s .
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , o k a y. Th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

So , th is Mr Mo o d le y, w h y ar e yo u s o r e luc ta n t to g e t

in to Mr Mo o d le y ?
MR MO LEFE:

D id w e n o t h e a r y es te r d ay w h a t a p ow e r fu l ma n h e is ?

N o , I a m n o t r e lu c ta n t I ju s t w a n te d to ma k e s u r e th a t n o th in g fe ll th r o u g h
20

th e c r a ck s .
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s . N o , n o n o . Th a t is tr u e a n d it h a s g o t n o th in g to

d o w ith th e fa c t th a t Mr Mo o d le y ’s c o u n s e l is s ittin g o p p o s ite y o u .
MR MO LEFE :

N o , n o n o . In fa c t, I d id n o t e v e n n o tic e th a t h e h a d th e

k in d o f p o w e rs th a t th e y s a y h e h a s b u t I c a n n o t r e fu s e w h a t th e y s ay.
C H A IR PER SO N :

N o , th a t is fin e . Mr So n i.

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w, y o u s ta r t y o ur o b s e rv a tio ns o n yo u r de a lin g s

w ith Mr Mo o d le y b y d e a lin g w ith th e mo d u s o p e r a n d i o f p e o p le w h o a r e
in v o lv ed in Sta te C a p tu r e , c a n y o u ex p la in to th e C h a ir p e rs o n ho w y o u
u n d e rs ta n d th e ir mo d u s o p e r a n d i.

An d it ma y n o t b e o n e b u t th e o n e s

th a t y o u h a v e e x pe r ie nc e d .
MR MO LEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n , th e p h e n o mena l Sta te C a p tu r e its e lf e n ta ils

th e r e p u r po s in g o f in s titu tio n s or o r g an isa tio n in o r d e r to a ch ie v e th e
o b je c tiv es o f th o s e w h o a re in te n t o f th o s e c a p tu r in g th os e in s titu tio n s .
N o w, o n e c a n n o t p r oc e ed a n d c ap tu r e so me th in g b y s imp ly
10

w o r k in g fr o m o u ts id e b e c a us e th e y w ill b e r e s is ta n c e .

Th e mo d u s

o p e r a nd i a s w e h a ve o b s er v e d ov e r a p e r iod o f ti me w h e n w e r e a lly s aw
th is th in g w a s th a t th o s e w h o w a n t to c a p tur e th e Sta te o r PR ASA in th is
in s ta n c e w o u ld fir s t id en tify k e y de c is io n ma k e rs a n d th e ex te n t o f th e ir
in flu e n c e a n d c ap tu r e th e m fir s t.
H a v in g

c a p tu r ed

th e m

th e n

th e y

te n d

to

ma n ip u la te

or

c o mp r o mis e th e m s o th a t lu c r a tiv e c o n tr ac ts th a t in s titu tio n w o u ld b e
is s u in g w o u ld b e d ire c te d to wh e r e th os e wh o a r e c a p tu r ing it w a n t th e m
to g o . Q u ite o fte n th e s e in d iv id u a ls w o u ld k n o w wh a t is th e p r o g r a mme ,
c a p ita l p r o g ra mme o f th e c o mp a n y, w h a t a r e th e k e y p r o jec ts th a t a r e
20

g o in g to b e co min g a n d in e a ch in s ta nc e w ha t is th e b u d g e t a llo ca tio n fo r
th e m, a n d th is is h ow th e y th en b e g in to en g a g e in c a p tu r ing th e Sta te .
So .. .[in te r v e n e s ].
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

So , s o r r y – s or ry.

So c a r r y o n . N o , s o r r y.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o . n o s o r r y.

So I w a s ju s t tr y in g to a r tic u la te a

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
d iffe r e n t is s u e n a me ly th e , w h a t is th e in - g a me o f S ta te C a p tu r e ?
MR MO LEFE:

W h a t w e n o w k n o w C h a ir pe r s o n th e e nd g a me o f Sta te

C a p tu r e is to s y ph o n o ff fu n d s to lo o t if y o u w e r e to s a y so .
Pu t y o u r h a n d y o u r fin g e rs o n th e p u b lic tr a il a n d ta k e a s mu c h
a n d th e y c o u ld ta ke o u t o f th e p u b lic tr a i l.

O f c o u r s e it h a s g o t d ir e

c o n se q u e nc es fo r a lar g e n u mbe r o f p e op le , y o u k no w or d in ar y p eo p le ,
n o t th a t c o mp a n y o r o r g a n isa tio n is s e r v ing , a n d th e g e n e r a l in te r e s t o f
th e p u b lic p ro v id ed fo r w ith in th e fr a me wo r k o f th e C o ns titu tio n o f th e
R e p u b lic a n d th e ma n d a te o f th a t p a r tic u la r o r g a n is a tio n in te r ms o f th e
10

le g a l in s tr u me n ts in te r ms o f w h ic h it h a s b ee n fo r me d o r e s ta b lis he d .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Mr Mo le fe y o u s a y th a t y o u c a n n o t c ap tu r e fr o m

o u ts id e y o u h av e g o t to b e in s id e .
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w, fir s tly h o w d o e s , a n d y o u s a y y o u c ap tu r e

c e r ta in p e o p le in th e o r g an is a tio n , c a p tu r e in w h a t s e n s e a nd h o w ?
MR MO LEFE:

We ll th e , I s u p p o s e th e r e ar e v ar io u s w a ys in wh ic h th ey

d o it b u t th e s ta r tin g p o in t is to g e t c lo s e r to p e o p le h o ld in g th is imp o r ta n t
p o s itio n s a n d ma k in g th e ms e lve s a cc e p ta b le to th e p e o p le in th is
p o s itio n s .
20

C H A IR PER SO N :

G e t th e m to d a n c e to y o u r tu n e , s o to s p e a k .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

G e t th e m to d a n c e to y o u r tu n e .

Th e y d o s o a n d ge t to th e m to d a n c e to y o u r tu n e or

a c tu a lly a c t lik e y o u r p ro xy ’s in s id e th e c o mp a n y a n d o f c o u rs e to th is
e x te n t th e r e w ill b e d is tr ib u tio n o f b e n e fit s , r e s o u rc es , o ffe r s o f th in g s
fr e e ly in a s e n se h a v in g b ee n g iv e n a ll o f th e s e th in g s or b e in g ma d e to

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b e a c lo s e a ss oc ia te o f th e a ffe c te d in d iv id u a ls wh o a r e p la nn in g to
c a p tu r e th e in s titu tio n r e s u lt in th e m b e c o min g b e h o ld th e m, to th e m a n d
in ma n y w a ys th e y d e lib er a te ly c o mpr o mis e p e o p le b y, y o u kn o w mo n ies
g iv in g th e m mo n e y d o in g a ll k in d s o f th in g s , in v itin g th e m to imp o r ta n t
fu n c tio n s , d r a w ing th e m to fu n c tio n s w h e r e th e r e a r e v e ry s e n ior p u b lic
fig u r e s ju s t to d e mo n s tr a te w h o th e y a r e a s s o c ia tin g w ith a n d h o w s tr o n g
th e y a r e . So , g e n e r a lly th a t is w h a t th e y d o . I f y o u g e t in to a c o mp a n y
a n d y o u d o no t k n o w th e m th e fir s t th in g th e y w ill d o th e y w o u ld ap p r oa c h
th o s e w h o a r e ins id e th e c o mp a ny to a r r a ng e fo r th e m to c o me c lo s e r to
10

y o u b ec a us e th e y th en n e ed to s tu d y y o u to u n d e rs ta n d y o u a nd b e g in to
ma k e c e r ta in o ffe r s to y o u a s a n in d iv id u a l w h o w o u ld la te r o f c o u r s e th e n
w o u ld a ls o e x e rc is e in flu e n c e w ith th e h o p e th a t th a t in flu e n c e w o u ld b e
o f a ma n n e r th a t w o u ld b e n e fit th e m o r th e ir a llie s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w, in r e s p e c t o f M r Mo o d le y w h e n d id y o u fir s t

g e t to k n o w h im?
MR MO LEFE:

I r e a lly g o t to k n ow Mr Moo d le y a fte r I h a d b e co me th e

C h a ir p er so n o f PR A SA. Th e v e r y fir s t in s ta n c e w h er e I me t h im c lo s e ly
w a s w h en I h a d b e e n in v ite d b y Mr Mo n ta n a to a tte n d th e in te r tr a n s th e
g lo b a l th e h u g e g lo b a l ex h ib itio n b us in e ss a n d Mr Mo o d le y w a s th e re b u t
20

it a ls o it a ls o h a p pe n e d th a t h e s ta y e d in th e s a me h o te l w he r e I w as
s ta y in g a n d th e s a me flo o r.
W h e r e I w a s s tay in g s o th a t is h o w it c o me s an d th e n o f
c o u rs e a s I c o me th e r e w a lk ing fr o m th e s h o p s I s e e 3 me n w a itin g n e x t
to th e h o te l a n d a s I a p pr o a ch th e y gr e e t me . O n e o f th e m tu r n e d to b e
Mr Mo o d le y a n d th a t is w h e r e it th e n s ta r ts . At th e in te r tr a n s w e g e t in to

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th is b ig e x h ib itio n h a ll c le a r ly s o me b od y h a d to ld Mr Mo o d le y w h ic h
e n tr a n c e I a m g o in g to b e u s in g b e c a u s e h e w a s w a itin g fo r me a t th a t
e n tr a n c e w ith a b u s in e ss p a r tn er o f h is a ma n c a lle d Mik e , I fo r g e t th e
s u r n a me n o w b u t I w ill r e me mb e r it d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f th is e v id e n c e ,
b u t h e is a Sp a n is h g u y, a n d th e y r e p r e s e n tin g th e ms e lv e s a s if th e y w e r e
my h o s ts .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Th e y w e r e h o s tin g me .

C H A IR PER SO N :
10

MR MO LEFE:

As if th e y w e r e ?

Oh.

So a n d th e n th e y s a y le t us ta k e y o u to o ur s ta n d a t w h ic h

p o in t I s a id n o , n o I c a n n o t g o to y o u r s ta nd I h a v e my o w n p lan , w h a t I
w a n t to s e e .

If b y th e e n d o f a ll th a t I h a v e time I c a n c o me to y o u r

s ta n d . Th a t is h o w I me t h im fo r th e fir s t ti me .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

Th e s h o w w a s in Be r lin in G e r ma n y.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE :

An d w h e r e w a s th e s ho w ?

An d fr o m PR ASA’s s id e w h o w a s th e re ?

We ll, I w o u ld n o t b e a b le to g iv e th e e x a c t n u mb e r o f

in d iv id u a ls , b u t th e G r o u p C EO w a s th e r e , I th in k , Mr D a n ie l M th imk h u lu
a s a ma n w h o w a s th e n ca lle d Ex ec u tiv e ma n a g e r w a s lik e th e gu y w h o
20

w a s r ea lly d r iv in g th e R o llin g Sto ck a n d R a il Pr o c u re me n t Pr o g r a mme
in c lu d in g th e loc o mo tiv es th a t w e s p ok e ab ou t e a r lie r o n . J a . Th a t – th a t
– th e r e w er e o th e rs th e r e w e r e o th e r ju n io r e mp loy e e s w e ll o th e r
ma n a g e rs in th e te a m.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d – a n d Mr Mo o d le y w a s h e th e r e in h is p e r s o n a l

c a p ac ity o r w a s h e th e re u n d e r PR ASA’s fla g if I c a n p u t it th a t w a y ?

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MR MO LEFE:

I w o u ld n o t k n o w h ow u nd er w h a t a us p ice s he w as th e r e

my a s su mp tio n w as th a t b e c a us e h e w a s th e s e rv ic e p r ov id e r o f PR ASA
a s I h a d b e e n to ld . H e w a s th e r e a s s o me b o d y in te r e s te d in o p p o r tu n itie s
ma y b e in th e s p a c e o f r a il o r s o . So , I d id n o t k n o w h o w h e g o t th e r e .
C H A IR PER SO N :

At th a t s ta g e y o u a lr e a d y k n e w th a t h e e ith e r w a s a

s e rv ic e p r ov id e r to PR ASA o r h a d s o me a s s o c ia tio n o f o n e k in d o r
a n o th e r w ith PR ASA?
MR MO LEFE:

I th in k b y th a t t ime I k n e w b e c a us e I a s k e d on e o f th e

e x e cu tiv e me mb e r s w ho w a s th e e x ec u tiv e fo r PR ASA te c h n ic a l s e rv ic es
10

Mr Za k iz a mx la ka [? ]. I w a s s e e ing th e m g o in g a r o un d to g e th e r a n d I s a id
b u t w h o – w h o is th is g u y th e n h e te lls me w h o is h e .
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t w a s Mr Mo o d le y ?

Ye s . Th e n I s a id to h im i t lo o k s like if y o u s ay to me h e is

a s e r v ic e p r ov id e r to PR ASA y o u mig h t b e c o mp r o mis ed a n d y o u mig h t
a ls o c o mp r o mis e h im b e c a u s e if y o u b e h a ve in a ma n n e r a s if y o u lik e it
y o u r to n gu e a n d s a liva w h en h e g e ts a c o n tr ac t fr o m th e c o mp a ny
s o me b o dy is g o in g to s a y w h a t d o y o u e x p e c t h e h a s g o t a ll o f th e m in h is
p o c ke t, s o I s a id n o , le t u s fin d a w a y o f . .. [i n te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N:
20

MR MO LEFE:

G e ttin g o u t o f ... [in te r v e n e s ].

G e ttin g o u t o f th is c lo s e n ess . I c a n n o t s a y d o n o t ta lk to

h im, it c a n n o t b e lik e w h e n a p e rs o n se e s yo u th e y c an n o t ma k e ou t th e ir
min d s w h e th e r th is o n e is ju s t a b u s in e s s p e r s o n o r a n e x ec u tiv e ma n a g er
o f th e c o mp a n y. So th a t w a s th a t a n d I mu s t s a y th a t it d id n o t e n d th e r e
a t a la te r s ta g e I d id s a y to Mr Mo o d le y I s e e y o u b e in g to o c lo s e to th e
ma n a g e me n t o f th e c o mp a n y, I d o n o t th in k it is to o g o o d fo r y o u , I th in k

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k e e p y o u r d is ta n ce b e ca u se y o u d o n o t w a n t s us p ic io ns a bo u t th e
c o mp a ny w h e n y o u k n ow, p r o c ur e me n t is d o n e , te n d e r s a r e is s u e d
b e c a us e y ou mig h t b e w in n in g s o me o f th e m.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w, y o u c a u tio ne d s o me ma n g e rs a n d yo u

c a u tio n e d Mr Mo o d ley w he r e th o se c a u tio na r y s ign s co mp ly w ith in o th e r
w o r ds d id th is c lo s e ne ss s to p ?
MR MO LEFE:

We ll C h a ir p e r s o n I w as no t a d a y to d a y o p er a to r a n

e x e cu tiv e o f th e Bo a r d s o I d o n o t k n ow, I h a v e g iv e n my a dv ic e an d by
th e w a y w h e th e r my a dv ic e is h e e de d is s imp ly d e p e nd e n t o n th os e w ho
10

lis te n e d to it b e c a u s e e v en if is a y I s a w y o u w a lk in g a r ou n d in th e
p r e mis es o f th e c o mp an y th ey c a n s till d o it o u ts id e th e p r e mis es o f th e
c o mp a ny. So I d o n o t k n o w if th e y c o mp lie d w ith my r e q u e s t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE :

An d w h a t w a s y o u r o bs e rv a tio n ?

We ll – w e ll my s e n s e is th a t th e y c o n tin u e d to th a t h e Mr

Mo o d le y c on tin u e d to b e c lo s e
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE :

To h a v e a s tr o n g p r e s e nce a t PR AS A.

H e c o n tin u e d to d o s o a n d a ls o o f c o u r s e h e h a d , it

a p p e a re d a t th a t time h e h a d be e n ve ry c lo s e to th e G ro u p C EO a t th e
time a s w e ll, b e c a u s e a t o n e p o in t I w a s told b y th e G r o u p C EO b e ca u se
20

th e y k n ew th a t I lo v e d g o lf th a t h e h a d s p o n s o r e d on b e h a lf o f PR ASA th e
g o lf e v e n t o f Mr Mo o d ley w h ic h wa s go in g to h a p p e n s o mew h e re in
D u r b an a n d th a t- h e s u g g e s te d th a t I a t te n d a n d Mr Mo o d le y a ls o in v ite d
me . I d o n o t w a n t to g o in to th o s e d e ta ils . I w ill w a it to h e a r c o u n s e l
le a d me . Bu t I c a n g o o n w ith th is s to r y u n til I g o .
C H A IR PER SO N: J a . He w ill le a d y o u on tha t a t th e r ig h t time . Bu t I ju s t

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w a n t to s h a r e th is w ith y o u .

A fe w min u te s a g o , y o u d e s cr ib e d- w e ll

ma y b e y o u d id n o t d e s c r ibe b u t y o u r e fe r to a to n g u e a n d s a liv a . N o , a ll I
w a n t to s a y is th a t in my la n g u a g e is iZu lu it is a v e r y d e sc r ip tiv e w a y a
v e ry g o o d wa y to d e sc r ib e a c e r ta in re la tio n s h ip . So , if p e o p le s e e m to
b e r e a lly v er y c los e , th a t is h o w w e p u t it. So ma y b e my Zu lu me a n in g fo r
it- it ma k e s it q u ite c le a r w h a t y o u w e r e o b je c tin g to . So , I th o u g h t I w ill
s h a r e w ith y o u b e ca u s e a fte r y o u me n tio ne d it, it w a s lin g e r in g in my
min d .
MR MO LEFE:
10

Th a n k y o u C ha ir p er s on b u t p e r h a ps n o w th a t th e

C h a ir p er so n h a s ex p la in e d it in En g lis h a s w e ll.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Th a t En g lis h imp o r t s h o u ld b e r e c o rd e d ... ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE:

N e x t to w h a t I h a v e s a id fo r a n y o n e w h o mig h t n o t

u n d e rs ta n d w h a t to n g u e a n d sa liv a me a ns .
C H A IR PER SO N: U n d e r s tan d , y e s . Bu t I w a s a ls o w o nd e r in g wh e th e r in
y o u r la n g ua g e w h ich I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d t o b e is iZu lu w h e th e r y o u h a ve
s o me th in g s imila r. Th is is ju s t a n a s id e n o w in w h e th e r th a t y o u h a v e a
s imila r k in d o f d e s cr ip tio n o r n o t r e a lly ?
20

MR MO LEFE: Th e r e is a s imila r ... ( in te r v en e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e r e is a s imila r, ja o k a y.
MR MO LEFE:

Als o a n u n d e r s ta n d in g o f a r e la tio n s h ip w h e re - w h ich is

in te r d e p e n de n t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: O n e d o e s n o t e x is t w ith o u t th e o th e r.

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C H A IR PER SO N: W ith o u t th e o th e r, y e s . Th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Amo n g s o me e mp loy e e s , w h a t w as - ho w w a s Mr

Mo o d le y r e fe rr e d to ?

W h a t w as h is r e pu ta tio n in r e g a r d to PR ASA a n d

h is in flu e n c e in PR ASA?
MR MO LEFE:

We ll la te r o n C h a ir p er s o n I a s k e d e mp lo ye e s es p ec ia lly

th o s e w ith wh o m I h a d th e o pp o r tu n ity to co n v e rs e an d o n e o f th e m s a id ,
“L o o k , th is is Mr PR ASA. Th is g e n tle ma n h e r e h e is c a lle d Mr Mo o d ley,
h e o w n s PR ASA ”.

An o th e r o n e s a y s , “PR ASA is h is fa r m”.

So , it is a

fa r m, y o u h a v e th is fa r m. Fr o m time to ti me if it is h a r v e s tin g time y o u
10

c o me to h a r v es t. So th a t is h o w th e y p u t i t.
So , fo r th e f ir s t ti me o n e b e g in s to r e a lis e s o me o f th e c r itic a l
c h a lle n g es th a t th o s e ru n n in g th e s ta te -ow n e d co mp a n ies a n d wh o a r e
in te n t o n e n s u r in g p r u d e nc y a n d g o od c o r p o ra te g o v e r na n c e w e a re
fa c in g .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w w e r e y o u a w ar e th a t a n y o f h is c o mp a n ie s h a d
r e c e iv e d c on tr a c ts fr o m PR ASA?
MR MO LEFE:

I w a s a d v is ed C h a ir p e rs o n th a t- a n d it is w h e n I a s ke d

w h a t s er v ice d o es , h e p ro v id e .

To w h a t h e s a id n o , h e h as g o t R oy a l

Se c u r ity c o mp a ny. A s e c u r ity c o mp a ny c a lled R o y a l Se c u r ity. An d h e h a d
20

a n o th e r b us in es s ca lle d Str a w b er ry Wo r x w h ic h w a s ru n b y h is s on .

In

r e s p ec t o f R o y a l Se c u r ity is o b v iou s ly to p r o v id e se c ur ity a t d iffe r e n t in
s ta tio n s ... ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Tr a in s ta tio n s .
MR MO LEFE: O r a s s e ts a t s ta tio n s o f PR ASA. S tr a w b e r ry Wo rx , I w a s
a d v is ed th a t i t h a d b e e n a w a r d e d a c o n tr ac t a n d th e te r ms to a d v e r tis e

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e v e ry w he r e w he r e PR ASA h a d p r o p e r ty esp e c ia lly a t th e s ta tio n s .

An d

th a t th e te r ms o f th a t a r r a n g e me n t w e r e th a t 6 0 % o f th e p r o fit p r o c e e d s o f
a d v e r tise me n t w ill g o to PR ASA, 4 0 % w ill g o to Mr Mo o d le y ’s c o mp an y,
Str a w b e r ry Wo rx .
An d th e n I a s k e d a q u es tio n , is it h a p p e n in g ?

Ar e w e ma k ing

mo n e y o u t o f it? Is it c o mp la in t? H e s a id , “n o , h e h a s s to p p e d pa y in g to
PR ASA its 6 0 % . H e is n o t p a y in g it” . An d I th in k a r o u n d th a t p o in t th e n a
d is p u te a ro s e be tw e e n PR ASA a n d h im- an d Str a w b e r ry Wo rx . L e t me p u t
it th a t w a y.
10

C H A IR PER SO N:

D id y o u g e t to k n o w a b o u t h o w lo n g it h a d b e e n

a d v e r tis in g a t th e p r o p e r tie s o w ne d b y PR ASA?
MR MO LEFE: In a ll fa ir n e s s I n e v e r g o t to p r o b e th a t d e e p er.
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u n e v e r g o t to p r o b e , y e s .
MR MO LEFE:

Bu t g e n e r a lly ta lk in g a b o u t th e r e la tio n s h ip b e tw e e n

PR ASA a n d Mr Mo o d le y I w a s a d v is e d it is a n o ld r e la tio n s h ip . In fa c t, i t
d id n o t s ta r t o n ly w h e n PR A SA w a s u n b u n d le d fr o m w h a t is n o w Tr an s n e t
a n d its e n titie s . Th a t h e s ta r te d th e r e a t w h a t is to d a y c a lle d Tr a ns n e t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: J a . An d c o n tin u e d to fo llo w.
20

C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s ,
MR MO LEFE: Th o s e w h o w e r e o p e r a tin g Me tr o r a il w h o h a d b e c o me p a r t
o f PR AS A.
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm o k a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w c a n I ju s t a s k yo u a n d I a s k y o u be c a us e th is is
w h a t I s a id y e s te r d ay is th e e v id e n c e th a t is g o in g to b e le d o n th is is s u e .

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D id y o u k n ow th a t u n til y e s te rd a y th a t a n amo u n t o f 4 7 1 millio n r a n d pa id
b y PR ASA to R o y a l Se c u r ity fo r s e r v ic e s th ey p u r p or te d ly r e nd e r ed ?
MR MO LEFE: I d id n o t k n o w in d e p e n d e n tly b u t I w o u ld - i f i t w a s p a r t o f
th e in v e s tig a tio n s o f th e We r k s ma n s it w o u ld b e in th e ir r e p o r t o f
We r ks ma n s . Bu t I h a v e h e a r d o th e r w itn es se s s a y in g it. I d id n o t k n o w.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Yo u a ls o k n o w th a t R o y a l Se c u r ity h a d b e tw e e n 2 0 0 7
a n d 2 0 0 9 pa id Mr Zu ma a n a mou n t o f 1 ,5 millio n r a n d in mo n th ly
in s ta lme n ts o f a b o u t R 6 4 0 0 0 .0 0
MR MO LEFE:
10

We ll C h a ir p er s o n I in d ep en d e n tly I d id n o t k n ow b u t it

b e c a me a ma tte r o f p u b lic re c or d b ec a u se it w a s r e p or te d e x te ns iv e ly
h e r e in th e me d ia a n d I a m n o t s u r e if Pu b l ic Pr o te c to r s r e p or t e lu d e d to
it b u t it w a s in th e me d ia e x te n s iv e ly.

An d o f c o u r s e , I h a v e n o

r e c o llec tio n o f Mr Zu ma c h a lle n g in g th a t a lle g a tio n .

He was I suppose

b e c a us e it w a s in th e r e c o rd a n d it c a n b e p r o v e n .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

J us t o n th a t sc o re , w h a t- yo u d o c o me to a s ta g e

w h e r e yo u s ay Mr Mo o d le y in v ite d yo u to th e 2 0 1 5 J u ly Ha n d ica p a n d to ld
y o u th a t Mr Zu ma an d Min is te r R a d eb e we r e g o ing to b e th e re .

Yo u

r e me mb e r- w e w ill c o me to th a t in a mo me n t b u t y o u r e c a ll th a t p a r t o f
y o u r a ffid a v it?
20

MR MO LEFE: I d id C h a ir. Bu t ma y b e b e fo r e w e mov e a wa y, w e s h o u ld
ta k e th is e x a mp le o f a n o w n e r o f a s ma ll c o mp a n y p u ttin g th e Pr e s id e n t o f
th e c o u n tr y o n h is p a yr o ll a s a c o n fir ma tio n o f th e s ta te me n t I ma d e a b o u t
h o w th o s e in te n t o n Sta te C a p tu r e , th e ir mo d u s o p er a n d i. Yo u p ic k a k ey
d e c is ion ma k er, v e ry in flu e n tia l p e o p le a n d th e y w ill d o y o u r b idd in g fo r
y o u . Th is is ju s t th e r ig h t e x a mp le o f th a t.

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A D V VA S SO N I SC : J a , th a n k y o u fo r p o in tin g th a t o u t Mr Mo le fe . Th a t
is a n o th e r p ie c e in th e p u z z le o b v io u s ly. Bu t th e q u e s tio n I w a n t to a s k is
w h a t fr o m y o u r o b s e rv a tio n s w as th e r e la tio n s h ip b e tw e e n Mr Mo o d le y
a n d Mr Zu ma a s id e fr o m th e s e tr a n s ac tio n s th a t w e h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t?
MR MO LEFE: In itia lly C h a ir p e r s o n I k n ew n o th in g a b o u t h is r e la tio n s h ip s
w ith th e fo r me r Pr e s id en t Zu ma s a ve w h a t h e to ld me . H e to ld me th a t
w h e n h e h a s fu n c tio n s , tw o ma jo r o n e s , th e J u ly H o r se r a c in g a n d I
u n d e rs ta n d Mr Mo o d le y h a s g o t a n u mb e r o f h o r s e s . H e is a n o w n e r o f
r a c in g h or s es . So , th e r e h e in v ite d th e Pr e s id e n t o f th e time fr o m time to
10

time .
Th e s e co n d o n e w a s th is g o lf e ve n t to w h ich h e w a s inv itin g me .
Th e r e o n th e d a y w h en th e r e is a G a la d in ne r w ith p r iz e g iv in g , h e w o u ld
in v ite Pr e s id en t Zu ma to th a t. Th e th ir d in s ta n c e w a s o n th e oc c as io n o f
th e Sta te o f th e N a tio n a d d r e ss , Mr Mo o d le y w a s on e o f th e v er y
imp o r ta n t p e o p le inv ite d .

I mu s t s a y tha t r e g a r d les s o f my s tr ug g le

c r e d en tia ls I w a s n o lo n g e r b e in g in v ite d to th o s e e v e n ts . In fa c t, h e w a s
th e o n e w h o w o u ld th e n ... ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: W h o in v ite d y o u .
MR MO LEFE: Mr Mo o d le y w ill b e th e o n e to s a y, “a r e y o u g o in g th e r e ? ”
20

An d I s a y, “n o , I h a v e n o t b e e n in v ite d ”. H e w ill s a y, “L o o k , I w ill g e t y o u
... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: An in v ite .
MR MO LEFE: An d in v ita tio n . So , I s a id , “I d o n o t w a n t y o u to g o a n d a s k
fo r a n in v ita tio n fo r me ”. Th e fa c t th a t th e y d id n o t in v ite me is th a t th e y
d o n o t w a n t me to b e in v ite d a n d I w ill r a th e r w a it fo r th e in v ita tio n to

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c o me fr o m th e m.
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: So , th e s e a r e in s ta n c e s w h ich a r e r e a lly in d ic a te d th a t th a t
r e la tio n s h ip a n d in h is v ie w h e w a s g e tti n g th e s e in v ita tio n s fr o m th e
Pr e s id e n t.
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o w th e s ta te o f th e n a tio n a d d r es s to w h ic h y o u

r e fe r r e d , d o y ou r e me mb e r wh e th e r w h ic h ye a r th a t w a s ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e f ir s t time I n o tic e d it w o u ld h a v e b e e n in ...

( in te r v en e s)
10

C H A IR PER SO N: 2 0 1 6 .
MR MO LEFE: 2 0 1 6 .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
MR MO LEFE: In 2 0 1 6 .
C H A IR PER SO N:

An d w a s it o n e o c c a s ion in te r ms o f th e S ta te o f th

N a tio n a l Ad d r es s o r w as it mo r e th a n th a t?
MR MO LEFE: Be c a u s e I w a s n o t a tte n d in g a ll o f th e m .. . ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: It c o u ld b e th a t in 2 0 1 7 a g a in a s imila r th in g h a p p e n e d .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
20

MR MO LEFE:

Be c a u s e w e w e r e- th e h o te l w h e r e I w a s s ta y in g Mr

Mo o d le y w ou ld a ls o be s ta y in g in th e sa me h o te l.

So , h e w a s g e ttin g

r e g u la r inv ita tio n s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Mm.

n o w y o u s p ok e a bo u t h im, th a t is Mr Mo o d le y,

in v itin g th e fo r me r Pr e s id e n t to h is g o lfin g fu n c tio n .
D u r b an ?

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Is th a t r ig h t, in

12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MO LEFE:

I d id s a y s o C h a ir p e rs o n b u t I d id a ls o s a y I h a d n o

in d e p e n de n t k n o w led g e o f th a t b e c a u s e I n e v e r a tte n d e d th o s e ev e n ts .
C H A IR PER SO N: O h y e s .
MR MO LEFE: Bu t I w a s to ld b y h im.
C H A IR PER SO N: By h im, y e s .
MR MO LEFE: Mr Mo o d le y, ja .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. An d w h a t h e to ld y o u w a s th a t h e w o u ld in v ite
th e fo r me r Pr e s id e n t to s o me o f th o s e fu n c tio n s .
MR MO LEFE: Ye s , a n d h e w o u ld s ay, “C o me th e Pr e s id e n t w ill b e th e r e .
10

C o me to th e d in n e r, h e w ill b e th e r e ”. An d h e w o u ld s o me time s s a y, “We ll
Min is te r J e ff R a d e b e w ill b e th e r e ”. An d r e f e r to o th e r ... ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Min is te r s th a t h e n o r ma lly in vite d .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Ma y b e e v e n th e fo r me r Pr e mie r o f Kw a Zu lu N a ta l w h o th e n
b e c o me th e Tr e as u re r G e n er a l o f th e AN C , Mr Zw e li Mk h iz e .
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: D o c to r, s o r r y. D r Mk h ize .
C H A IR PER SO N:

20

N o w g o ing b a ck to Mr Mo o d le y a tte n d in g th e s ta te o f

th e n a tio n a d d r e ss a n d o ffe r in g to in e ffe c t a s I u n d e r s ta n d y ou r e v ide n c e
o r g a n is e a n in v ita tio n fo r y o u . Is h e th e o n e w h o s a id to y o u h e h a d b e e n
in v ite d to th e s ta te o f th e n a tio n a d d r e ss , d id h e s ay b y th e fo r mer
Pr e s id e n t?

O r d o y o u k n o w h o w h e - w ho h a d in v ite d h im?

I me a n

te c h n ic a lly th e in itia tio n w o u ld c o me fr o m th e Sp e a k e r o f Pa r lia me n t, I
w o u ld ima g in e . Bu t I w o n d e r w h e th e r yo u ar e a b le to c la r ify th a t?

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MO LEFE: We ll h e s a id h e is g e tt in g in v ite d b y th e Pr e s id e n c y b u t th e
w a y w h e n I w a s s till a p o litic ia n , th e w a y t h is ma tte r w o u ld w o r k is th a t
th e Sp e a k e r o f Pa r lia me n t w o u ld a llo c a te in d iv id u a ls - to in d iv id u a ls a n
in v ita tio n .

Fo r th e Pr e s id e n cy th e r e ar e s o ma ny in v ita tio n s an d

s o me b o dy in th e Pr e s id e n c y w o u ld th e n in v ite p e o p le w h o a r e c lo s e to th e
Pr e s id e n t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Th e r e w o u ld b e th o s e in d iv id u a ls w h o a r e lik e y o ur H e a d o f
Sta te a n d s o o n .. . ( in te r v e n e s )
10

C H A IR PER SO N: Sta te e n ti tie s .
MR MO LEFE: An d th e n th o s e w o u ld pr o ba b ly b e inv ite d d ir ec tly o r th e
Pr e s id e n t w ou ld s ay, I w a n t y o u to in v ite th o s e p e o p le . An d th e n th e y
w o u ld in v ite th e m.
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: Es p e c ia lly H e a ds o f G o v e r n me n t b e c a u s e it n e e d s to h a v e
th a t d e c o r u m o f th e h ig h e s t o ffic e in th e le g is la tu r e th e y a r e in v itin g . An d
th e s a me a p p lies to e v e ry me mb e r o f Pa r lia me n t.

Th e y in v ite th e ir

fr ie n d s a n d fa milie s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . O k a y, th a n k y o u .
20

A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th a n k y o u C ha ir p er s on . Mr Mo le fe , b e fo r e I le a v e
th is a n d p e r h a p s , I w a s n o t a s v ig ila n t a s I s h o u ld h a v e b e e n .

Yo u

me n tio n e d a p r iz e g iv ing o c ca s io n , w h a t w as th a t?
MR MO LEFE:

C h a ir p e r s on w h e n y o u p lay g o lf- w h e n g o lf w a s p lay e d ,

th e y k e e p th e s c o r e s a n d a t th e e n d o f th e g a me th o s e s c o r es a r e k e p t in
th e o r d e r o f th e p e r fo r ma n c e o f th e g o lfe r s d e p e n d ing o n h o w ma n y p r iz e s

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
th e y h a ve . Th e y c o u ld h a ve - th e y c o u ld g ive o u t 5 p r iz es o r 1 0 p r iz e s bu t
th e y w o u ld g iv e th e m in d iffe r e n t w ay s . Th er e c o u ld b e a go lfe r w ith w ha t
is c a lle d th e lo n g e s t d r iv e , h e h its o r s h e h its th e b a ll mu c h lo n g e r th a n
a n y o ne e ls e , fu r th e r th a n a n y o ne e ls e a n d th e n g e t a p r iz e fo r th a t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So . .. ( in te r v e n es )
MR MO LEFE: An d th e n o th e r s w o u ld be d ep e n d in g o n th e fo r ma t, if i t is
w h a t th e y c a ll th e b e tte r b a ll, a b e t te r b a ll me a n s th e r e s h o u ld b e tw o
p a r tie s . Th e b e tte r o f th e tw o . An d a b e tt e r b a ll w o u ld h a v e tw o g o lfe rs
o n o n e s id e th e o th er tw o o n o n e s id e a n d th e b e tte r b a ll w in n e rs w ill b e
10

th e tw o o n th e b e s t p e r fo r min g s id e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Th e q ue s tio n I a m a s k ing is in a n sw e r to th e

q u e s tio n fr o m th e C h a ir pe r so n yo u r e fer r ed to a p r iz e g iv in g c e re mo n y.
W h a t p r iz e g iv ing c e r e mon y w er e y o u re fe r r in g to ?
MR MO LEFE:

I w a s r e fe r r in g to th e p r iz e g iv in g c e r e mo n y o f th e g o l f

e v e n t w h ic h wa s o r ga n is ed b y Mr Mo o d ley w h ic h I w a s a dv is e d by Mr
Mo n ta n a th a t h e h a d s p o ns o re d as th e G C EO o f PR ASA a n d w a s
e n c o ur a g in g me to a tte n d .

So , I d id n o t a tte n d b u t Mr Mo o d le y a ls o

in v itin g me h e s a id , “C o me a n d th e Pr e s id e n t w ill b e th e r e . H e w ill b e a t
th e p r iz e g iv in g ”. Be c a u s e a t th e p r iz e g iv in g y o u a ls o h av e s o me k in d o f
20

a G a la d in n e r. So th a t is w h a t it me a n s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So r r y ( in d is tin c t) .
MR MO LEFE: An d p r iz e g iv in g by th e w ay I d o n o t k n ow if th e y w ou ld
g iv e mo n e y a n yw h er e b u t th e y n o r ma lly g iv e y o u a g o lf c lu b s , ma y b e o n e
d r iv er. A d r iv e r is a w o o d , a n u mb e r o ne w o o d . O r a s a n d w e d ge , th e
o n e th a t y o u u s e to c h ip th e b a ll o u t o f th e s a n d in th e b u n k e r a n d s o o n .

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O r a p u tte r, th e o n e th a t y o u u s e to p u t th e b a ll in to th e w h o le . I d o n o t
k n o w if th e C h a ir p e rs o n p lay e d g o lf a t a ll.
C H A IR PER SO N: N o , h e is n o t. Bu t h e h o p e s to b e o n e a fte r r e tir e me n t.
We r e th e r e a fe w o c c as io ns w h e n Mr Moo d le y in v ite d y ou to s o me o f
th e s e e v e n ts th a t h e w a s s p o ns o r in g or o r g an is in g o r ju s t o n ce o r tw ic e ?
MR MO LEFE:

I t mig h t w e ll h a v e b e e n tw ic e b u t I r e me mb e r o ne ...

( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE:
10

O f c o u r s e , I th e n in b e tw e e n th in g s c h an g e d th a t a ls o

ma d e me to b e c a u tio u s .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
MR MO LEFE: J a o f b y a s s oc ia tio n , ja .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : n o w th e o th e r p o in t y o u - is th a t th e s a me to u r n a me n t
th a t PR ASA h a d s p o n s o re d ?
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d w h a t w a s th e s p o ns o rs h ip ?
MR MO LEFE:

I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th e s pon s o rs h ip wa s .

O r d in a r ily th e

b o a r d w o u ld no t c o nc e r n itse lf w ith th e s ma ll th in g s . I me a n th e y s p o ns o r
20

c h a r ity I me a n th e b o a r d w o u ld n o t w a n t to k n o w a b ou t th a t. Bu t I th in k
in time w e b e g a n to a s k c or p o ra te c o mmu n ic a tio n o f PR ASA w h e r e
a p p a r en tly s p on s or s h ip w a s b e in g d ire c te d fr o m to g iv e to th e b o a r d th e
s p o ns o rs h ip p o licy o f th e c o mp a n y.
We w e r e b eg in n in g to s e e s o me s tr an g e p a r tie s w ho w e w er e
to ld w e w e r e g iv in g mo n e y, th e y w e r e g iv e n lik e 5 mill io n p e r a n n u m. An d

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th e y s e r ve d n o g o o d s o c ia l c au s e a n d s o tha t is w h a t ma d e u s to w a n t to
n o w g e t th e p o lic y to u n de rs ta n d w h a t is it th a t w e ma y o r ma y n o t
s p o ns o r.

Bu t th a t w a s n o t th e o n ly o n e th a t c a u s e d u s to d o s o

C h a ir p er so n .
PR ASA fo r a lo n g time o r fo r s o me time b e c a me a n a n c h o r - o n e
o f th e a n c h o r s p o n so r s o f th e C a p e To w n J a zz Fe s tiv a l. O f c o u r s e , fo r
w h ic h it h a d g o t c e r ta in b e n e fits b u t it a ls o s u p p lie d fr e e tr a in s to p e o p le
fr o m c e r ta in p a r ts o f th e p r o v in c e . An d it tu r n e d o u t th a t th a t s p o n s or s h ip
w a s d o n e in a ma n n e r th a t w e th o u g h t w a s p r e ju d ic ia l to PR ASA a n d w e
10

w a n te d it r e v ie w e d . Fir s t, w e h a d b e e n c o mmitte d to s e v e r a l y e a rs a n d
th a t to o ma d e u s w a n t to u n d e r s ta n d th e s p o n s o rs h ip p o lic y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w y o u h a v e d e sc rib e d tw o o f th e o c c a s io ns o n

w h ic h yo u lis te d p a r a gr a p hs 3 7 a n d 3 8 w he re Mr Mo o d le y y o u s ay tr ie d to
c a p tu r e y ou , th e o n e b e in g th e g o lf d a y a n d a n in v ita tio n to th e J u ly
H a n d ica p . D o y o u s e e th a t?
MR MO LEFE: I s e e th a t C h a ir.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w th e r e is a th ir d o n e th a t y o u me n tio n e d b u t

b e fo r e I a s k y o u a b o u t th e th ir d o n e , th e r e a r e n e w s r e p o r ts th a t th e n
Pr e s id e n t Zu ma ma d e R 1 5 0 0 0 .0 0 a t a D u rb a n J u ly. Is th is th e D u r b a n
20

J u ly w he r e y ou - th a t r e p o r t r e fe r s to ?
MR MO LEFE: C h a ir p e rs o n I w o u ld n o t p u t my h e a d o n th e b loc k fo r th a t
s a v e to s ay th a t it w a s a t o n e o f th o s e fa ir ly r e c en t D u r b a n Ju ly H an d ic ap
ju s t b e fo r e I le ft PR AS A.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w th e th ir d o c c a s io n y o u ta lk a b o u t is th e tr ip y o u
w e r e p la n n in g to a tte n d th e U S Ma s te r s in Au g u s ta Atla n tic in th e U n ite d

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Sta te s .
MR MO LEFE: Ye s , I d o C h a ir p e r s on .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : C a n I a s k y o u v e r y b r ie fly, I k n o w it is q u ite d e ta ile d
here.

C o u ld y o u b r ie fly e x p la in to th e C h a ir p er so n w h a t a r e v a r io u s

in d ic ia th a t th is w a s a fu r th e r a tte mp t b y Mr Mo o d le y to c a p tu r e yo u .
MR MO LEFE: C h a ir p e r s o n in th e - in my sta te me n t I e x p la in w h a t th e y th e Ma s te r s is , a G lo b a l G o lf C o mp e titio n . Mr Mo o d le y h a d o v er h e ar d me
ta lk in g a b o u t th e fa c t th a t I w a s g o ing to g o to th e Ma s te r s .

He th e n

a s k ed me ... ( in te r v e n e s)
10

C H A IR PER SO N: Ma y be - I a m s or ry. Ma y b e y o u c a n lo we r th e mic a little
to w a r d s y o u r d ire c tio n b e ca u se I th in k y o u n o w s p e ak in g - ja .
MR MO LEFE: Th e - h a v in g h e a r d me s a y ing th a t I a m p la n n in g to g o to
th e Ma s te r s h e s a id h e wo u ld w an t to c o me a lo n g . H im a n d h is Sp a n ish
fr ie n d o r b us in es s p a r tn er, th e o n e I s aid w h o se s ur n a me I ca n n o t
r e me mb e r b u t n o w I r e me mb e r it is Mic h a e l Fo r s ta m.

Th e tw o o f th e m

w a n te d to c o me , I s a id , “th a t is fin e . Yo u c a n c o me w ith me . I d o w ith
ma n y p e o p le , th e r e is n o b ig d e a l ”. J a a n d I e x p la in e d w h a t i t is e n ta ile d
to it e n ta ils to g o to th e Ma s te r s a c q u ir ing th e b a d g e s , th e b a d g e s a r e
n o r ma lly w ha t is c a lle d a c cr e d ita tio n o r a o ffe r a c c e ss b a d g es o r tic k e t
20

a n d th e n o f c o u rs e yo u r ac c o mmo da tio n a pa r t fr o m y o u r a ir tick e t a n d s o
o n . So , w e e x p la in e d th a t. Th e n Mr Mo o d le y s ay s , “d o n o th in g . I w ill
b e a r th e c os t fo r e v e ry th in g . Yo u r a ir tic k e t, y o u r a c c o mmod a tio n , y o u r
tr a n s fe rs , y o u r s u bs is te nc e wh e n y o u ar e th e r e .

An d y o u te ll me h o w

mu c h th e b a d g e s w ill c os t a n d I w ill p a y fo r th a t”.
So , I s a id , “n o , th a t is n o t h o w I d o i t. I w ill n o t d o th a t ”. An d

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th e n I d e c id e d ins te a d o f w a itin g lo n ge r I am ju s t g o in g to g o a h ea d , b o o k
a c c o mmod a tio n , p a y fo r th e b a d ge s , I w ill p a y fo r h is as w e ll. I p a id fo r
h is b a d g e s a s w e ll a n d I h a v e s a id I h a v e d o n e a ll o f th o s e th in g s . I h a v e
g o t my a ir tic k e t a n d I a m g o in g w ith my w ife .

So , a n d w e h a v e g o t a

h o u s e w h er e w e a r e s ta y in g . Th a t is w h a t I h a d to ld h im. Bu t i t tu r n e d
o u t th a t a f te r I h a d s a id to h im, I w a s h a p p y fo r h im to jo in me g o in g to
th e Ma s te r s , I h a d d o ne it fo r ma n y p e op le I k n e w w ith o u t a ny c on d itio n
a tta c h e d . Th e n I g o t a r e p o r t- c o u n s e l w ill s to p me if c o u n s e l w a n ts me
n o t to p r o c e e d in th a t ma n n e r.
10

A D V VA S SO N I SC : J a .
MR MO LEFE: C o u n s e l I g e t a r e p o r t fr o m a fo r me r c o lle a g u e w h o w or k ed
w ith me a t Pe tr o SA , th e Pe tr o le u m a n d G a s C o r po r a tio n o f So u th Afr ic a
o f w h ic h I w a s th e c h a ir ma n a t s o me p o in t.

H e s a y s to me , “I a m

c o n su ltin g fo r th is p a r tic u la r a n d w e we r e in Sp a in . I h a d a m e e t in g o f
t h e B o a r d w i th t h e s e p e o p l e b e c a u s e I n e e d e d to p r e s e n t to t h e m a
p r o p o s a l fo r t h e w o r k t h a t I a m d o i n g f o r t h e m .

I n t h a t m e e t in g Mr

M o o d l e y t h e n a s k e d s e v e r a l o f t h e s e p e o p l e to g iv e h i m m o n e y b e c a u s e
h e n e e d e d t h a t m o n e y t o p a y f o r t h e a ir t i c k e ts , b u s i n e s s o r f ir s t c la s s
ti c k e t s f o r t h e C h a ir m a n o f P R A S A , t o p a y f o r h is a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r a
20

w e e k . To p a y fo r th e c h il d r e n a ir t ic k e t s o f th e C h a ir m a n a n d to g iv e
t h e m m o n e y f o r s u b s i s te n c e a s w e l l a s e n s u r i n g t h a t th e y h a v e g o t
tr a n s fe r s fr o m t h e a ir p o r t b a c k t o t h e a ir p o r t a n d fr o m w h e r e t h e y l iv e
t o A u g u s t a N a ti o n a l w h ic h is w h e r e t h e e v e n t is h e l d . S o th is g u y te ll s
m e t h is . W h e n I h a d h e a r d t h a t I g o t s c a r e d . I n fa c t t h is is w h a t m a d e
m e p a y fo r e v e r y t h in g q u ic k ly.

I c a n s a y t h a t n o w t h a t I – I d id n o t

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c la i m t h e m o n i e s I p a i d f o r Mr M o o d l e y b e c a u s e I b e g a n to w o r r y t h a t I
d i d n o t r e a ll y w a n t t o h a v e e x c h a n g e s o f m o n i e s w it h h i m .

I

r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t h e b o o k s h is a ir t ic k e t , th a t h e b o o k s h is o w n
a c c o m m o d a ti o n . H e s a i d h e h a d b o o k e d a c c o m m o d a t io n b u t h e w a n t e d
m e t o s t a y w i t h h i m a ll t h e ti m e a n d I s a i d , n o w e d o n o t – I d o n o t w a n t
t o s t a y w i t h y o u I h a v e g o t my h o u s e w h e r e I h a v e g o t o t h e r p e o p l e .
A n d C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t is t h e h o u s e t h a t I h a v e b e e n s t a y in g in f o r y e a r s .
I m e a n t h e f a mi ly k n o w s m e . I j u s t te ll t h e m I a m c o m in g , g iv e m e y o u r
p r i c e a n d I p a y t h e m . T h a t is w h e r e I – I s t a y e d a ll t h e t i m e . S o – a n d
10

t h e n h e u s e d t o in s i s t t h a t I s h o u l d a s k th e o t h e r p e o p le w h o w o u ld b e
s t a y in g w i t h m e t o v a c a t e t h e ir b e d r o o m s , th e ir r o o m s s o th a t h i m a n d
M ic h a e l Vo r s t a m w o u ld c o m e a n d s t a y w i t h m e i n t h a t h o u s e . I r e f u s e d
o f c o u r s e . S o t h a t is w h e r e w e a r e n o w. A n d a s th i n g s g o e s o n t h e n o f
c o u r s e i t is a l s o a t t h a t t i m e w h e n t h e r e is th is o r c h e s tr a t e d v o l a t il i ti e s ,
p r o t e s t s t h a t a r e b e i n g o r c h e s tr a t e d n o w b y th o s e w h o w e r e a s s o c i a te d
w i t h M r M o n t a n a , S i t h a u a n d t h is o th e r m a n w h o w a s b e i n g p a i d R 5
m il li o n

every

year

he

is

c a ll e d

Stephen

Sangwen

organising

u n e m p lo y e d y o u t h t o c o m e a n d d e m o n s t r a te a n d m a r c h a g a i n s t t h e
Board at PRASA. So I said to him, look I have an emergency I cannot
20

g o n o w. I a m n o t g o i n g t o t h e M a s t e r s a n y m o r e I h a v e g o t t o d e a l w i t h
a n e m e r g e n c y b a c k o f – h e r e a t h o m e b u t m y w i f e w il l g o .
in v i te d o u r fr ie n d s fr o m A t l a n ta i n th e U n i te d S t a t e s .

I have

T h e y w il l b e

s t a y in g in t h e s a m e h o u s e w i th m y w i fe . Yo u a n d M ic h a e l c a n p r o c e e d .
I w i ll g iv e y o u th e d e t a ils o f w h e r e y o u w il l c o l l e c t y o u r b a d g e s t o e n t e r
A u g u s ta N a ti o n a l . H e a r in g m e s a y i n g th a t I w a s n o t g o i n g h e s a y, n o i f

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
y o u a r e n o t g o i n g I a m a ls o c a n c e ll in g .

A n d I m u s t s a y t h a t a c tu a lly

b e f o r e I to ld h i m t h a t I w a s n o t g o i n g h e w a s b e g i n n i n g to s u g g e s t t h a t
d u r i n g o u r t r i p t o t h e U n it e d S t a t e s w e m u s t t a l k a b o u t t h e b u s i n e s s w e
c a n d o t o g e t h e r. A n d I s a i d , n o I d o n o t w a n t to d is c u s s b u s in e s s . I t is
a g o l f t h i n g a n d th a t is w h a t i t is g o i n g t o b e I d o n o t w a n t to ta lk
b u s i n e s s . S o t h e e ff e c t o f w h a t I s a i d w a s t h a t h e c a n c e ll e d . H a v in g
a tt e n d e d to m y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e c a n c e l le d h is o w n b o o k i n g s ?
M R M O L E F E : Fo r h i s t r i p . H e h a d n o t – I d o n o t k n o w.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MOLEF E: Well he would have cancelled his….
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e c h a n g e d h i s m in d a b o u t a t te n d i n g .
M R M O L E F E : C h a n g in g h e m i n d s I d o n o t k n o w i f h e h a d b o o k e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEF E: But I had booked badges for him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

W h ic h i n a n y e v e n t w o u l d s t il l h a v e b e e n i n t h e U n it e d

S t a te s . I p a i d fo r t h e m a n d th e y w o u l d b e g iv e n to f r i e n d s w h o c a m e
there. So I got worried about what appeared to be a concerted attempt
20

t o c o m p r o m is e m e .

W o r r y m e e v e n m o r e w a s th a t c o m p a n i e s w h o s e

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h P R A S A I d i d n o t k n o w w e r e t o l d t h a t th e y n e e d e d t o
p a y m o n e y t o e n a b l e m e t o g o to t h e M a s t e r s . I m e a n I d i d n o t n e e d
anybody for pay me.

I h a d b e e n d o in g i t .

been doing it for ten years or so.

B y t h a t ti m e I t h in k I h a d

S o t h a t is w h a t – a n d C h a ir p e r s o n

a g a in it is i m p o r t a n t t o s i t u a te w h a t I a m s a y i n g w i th i n t h a t w h i c h I s a i d

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
is t h e m o d u s o p e r a n d i o f th o s e i n t e n t o n c a p t u r i n g p e o p l e h o w t h e y
t a r g e t d e c i s i o n m a k e r s , p e o p le i n in f lu e n t ia l p o s i ti o n s .

But they also

m a n i p u l a te a n d c o m p r o m i s e y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld it b e c o r r e c t to s a y i n th e e n d i t l o o k e d l ik e h e
h a d n e v e r i n te n d e d t o g o a n d a t te n d th is f u n c t i o n u n t il h e h e a r d th a t
y o u w e r e p l a n n in g t o a t t e n d a n d th e n h e s a i d h e w a n t e d t o g o a s w e l l.
B u t w h e n y o u s a i d y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g t o g o h e t h e n c h a n g e d h is m i n d
a ls o a n d s a i d h e w a s n o t g o in g . Is th a t a f a ir ?
M R M O L E F E : I t is a f a ir c o n c lu s i o n C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n c l u s i o n .
MR MOLEF E: I doubt.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEF E: If he even knew about the Masters.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . T h a n k y o u .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : J u s t – ju s t o n t h a t s c o r e Mr M o le f e y o u s a y t h a t
o n e o f t h i n g s h e s a i d t o y o u is w h i le y o u w e r e in t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s y o u
c o u l d d i s – h e w o u l d – y o u a n d h e c o u l d d is c u s s b u s in e s s .

Did he

in d i c a t e w h a t t h a t w o u l d b e ?
M R M O L E F E : N o , n o I d i d n o t e v e n w a n t to e n t e r t a i n th a t d is c u s s i o n
20

b e c a u s e I c a n n o t e n t e r t a i n a d is c u s s i o n o f d o i n g b u s in e s s w i th
s o m e b o d y w h o is d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i t h a c o m p a n y t h a t I a m t h e
C h a ir m a n o f . C l e a r l y I m e a n t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n c o n f lic t s r i g h t fr o m
t h e b e g in n in g .

S o c o n fl ic t o f in t e r e s t s o I d i d n o t e n te r t a in it .

I was

n o t in t e r e s t e d in t a k i n g th e d is c u s s i o n fu r t h e r t h a n w h a t h e s a i d a n d
w h a t I s a i d t o h i m t h a t I – n o , I d o n o t w a n t to d i s c u s s b u s i n e s s .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e e x t e n t th a t h e m a y n o t h a v e in t e n d e d t o o r

p l a n t o a t te n d t h e M a s te r s p r i o r t o h i m h e a r i n g t h a t y o u w e r e p la n n i n g
t o g o t h e r e a m I r i g h t t o s a y c e r ta in ly y o u w e r e n o t h i s f r i e n d ?
M R M O L E F E : C e r t a i n l y h e h a d n o i n t e n t io n o f g o in g t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M O L E F E : B u t w h a t w a s q u it e c l e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : Is th a t h e w a s lo o k i n g f o r a n o p p o r t u n i ty w h e r e h e c o u ld
b e w it h m e , fa r a w a y a n d i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s in w h ic h h e w o u l d h a v e
10

fi n a n c e d e v e r y t h i n g s o I – w e w o u ld p r o c e e d fr o m d a y 1 o n th e b a s i s o f
o n e w h o h a s b e e n c o m p r o m is e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEF E: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Yo u – y o u w e r e n o t fr i e n d s a t t h e t i m e t h a t h e –
w h e n h e s a id t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o g o – y o u w e r e g o i n g to a t te n d th e
Masters he then said he was also going to
M R M O L E F E : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: And he wanted to stay where you were staying.
MR MOLEF E: That is correct.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e e x t e n t o f h i m s a y in g a s k t h e o th e r p e o p l e t h a t
w o u ld h a v e b e e n g u e s t s i n t h e h o u s e w h ic h y o u w e r e g o in g t o – i n
w h ic h y o u w e r e g o i n g t o s t a y a s k th e m t o le a v e s o t h a t h e c a n c o m e i n
and stay with you?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t w a s h is v ie w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
M R M O L E F E : H is – h is r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Thank you.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M r M o l e f e th e r e i s j u s t o n e f u r t h e r a s p e c t a n d

t h e n I a m g o in g t o t u r n t o a d i ff e r e n t a s p e c t o f y o u r a ff id a v i t. Yo u h e a r
fr o m a fr i e n d th a t l o o k M r M o o d l e y is g o in g a r o u n d in fa r a w a y S p a in to
s a y I a m g o i n g t o s p o n s o r M r M o l e fe a n d h is f a m i ly t o t h e M a s t e r s .
O b v io u s ly th a t i s a s l u r o n y o u r c h a r a c t e r. W o u l d I b e c o r r e c t ?
MR MOLEF E: That is correct.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Is t h a t s i m p ly h o w y o u r e g a r d e d i t ?
10

M R M O L E F E : C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : D id y o u r a is e i t w i t h h i m a t a n y s t a g e ?
MR MOLEFE:
him.

N o I d i d n o t g o a n d h a v e a n y f u r th e r d i s c u s s io n w i t h

M y r e c o ll e c t io n i s th a t a t o n e p o i n t y o u k n o w a s t h e o t h e r

w i t n e s s e s s a y t h a t h e is a p o w e r f u l m a n .

H e – I r u n a c h a r it a b l e

f o u n d a t io n t o r a is e f u n d s t o e d u c a t e y o u n g p e o p l e w h o s e p a r e n t s a r e
u n a b l e t o p a y f o r in r e s p e c t o f t h e ir tu i ti o n a n d b o o k s . S o I d o it e v e r y
y e a r.

I r a i s e f u n d s a n d I h o l d th is e v e n t a t S u n C i ty.

So that same

y e a r I t h i n k s h o r tl y a f t e r I s a id I c a n n o t g o w i th h i m t o th e M a s t e r s h e
c o m e s t o m y e v e n t w i t h M r M ic h a e l Vo r s t a m n o th e y w a n t t o p la y. A n d
20

so I say no.
CHAIRPERSON: They want to pay?
M R M O L E F E : T h e y w a n t t o p la y g o lf in m y e v e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To p l a y g o l f j a .
MR MOLEFE: So I said you are not going to play because I have not
in v i te d y o u a n d d o n o t tr y to g o t o t h e d i n n e r e it h e r b e c a u s e y o u w i ll b e

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
e m b a r r a s s e d . B e c a u s e e v e r y o n e w h o is g o i n g t h e r e is a c c r e d it e d . S o I
– I s e n t th e m a w a y. S o t h e r e w a s n o f u r t h e r b a s is f o r fu t u r e d is c u s s i o n
s a v e w h e r e i t a p p e a r e d a n d m a y b e I s h o u ld l e a v e t h i s o n e . B u t q u i t e
c le a r ly b e i n g u n h a p p y w i th t h e – w h a t I w a s d o i n g a n d a l s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o n o t g o f a r a w a y fr o m t h e m ic r o p h o n e .
MR MOLEF E: Oh sorry Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

So it became clear to me that there is no love lost

b e t w e e n m e a n d Mr M o o d l e y a n d i f a n y t h i n g h e w o u l d s u p p o r t a n y
10

o p p o r t u n i ty t o u n d e r m i n e m y w o r k a n d t h e w o r k o f th e B o a r d o f
D ir e c t o r s o f Tr a n s – o f P R A S A , P R A S A .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e a s k , a r e y o u a b l e to r e m e m b e r a r o u n d a b o u t

w h e n a n d i n w h ic h y e a r t h e M a s t e r s w a s t o w h ic h Mr M o o d l e y w a n t e d to
go?
MR MOLEF E: I would not…
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is ( i n d i s t i n c t) .
M R M O L E F E : I w o u l d n o t b e a b le t o g iv e t h e e x a c t d a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : S a v e t o s a y th e M a s te r s E v e n t t a k e s p l a c e th e f ir s t w e e k
20

– t h a t ti m e it w a s t a k in g p l a c e – l e t m e s a y t h e s e c o n d w e e k o f A p r i l .
N o r m a l ly a w e e k th a t s ta r t s s a y m a y b e o n t h e 6 t h o r t h e 5 t h a n d i t is a –
a f iv e d a y e v e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : W h ic h e n d o n S u n d a y e v e n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W o u ld t h i s h a v e b e e n 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 ?

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
MR MOLEF E: 2015.
CHAIRPERSON: 2015.
MR MOLEF E: 2015.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d t h e n th e – t h e f u n c t i o n th a t y o u w e r e

h o s ti n g g o l f a n d – a t S u n C it y t h a t h e w a n t e d t o a t t e n d :
MR MOLEF E: It also happened every April.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

B u t j u s t a f t e r m y b ir th d a y w h i c h i s o n th e 2 5 A p r i l –

t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f A p r il .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEF E: It was a two day event.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d t h is p a r t ic u l a r o n e t h a t h e w a n t e d t o a t t e n d
or where he rocked up was it in 2015 or 2016? The – your golf event
w h ic h y o u h o s t in S u n C it y. T h e o n e t h a t M r M o o d le y w a n t e d t o a t t e n d
was it is 2015 or 2016?
MR MOLEF E: It was 2015.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

So it was about the Masters and your golf event

w e r e in A p r il 2 0 1 5 ?
20

MR MOLEF E: In 2015 same month.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – s o A p r il is a b i g m o n th f o r y o u .

I t is t h e

M a s t e r s , i t is y o u r g o lf e v e n t, it is y o u r b ir t h d a y, it is Fr e e d o m D a y.
MR MOLEFE:

It is a b i g d a y b u t I h a v e s t o p p e d n o w g o i n g t o t h e

M a s t e r s I c a n n o l o n g e r a ff o r d i t .

Maybe this should have been the

ti m e w h e n I i n v i te d Mr M o o d l e y n o w t o t a k e o v e r.

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l a c t u a l ly I w a n te d t o a s k y o u a q u e s ti o n a n d y o u
d i d s a y t h a t p r i o r t o 2 0 1 5 y o u m a y h a v e b e e n a t t e n d in g t h e M a s te r s f o r
a b o u t t e n y e a r s o r s o . Yo u h a d b e e n a t t e n d i n g t h e e v e n t a n u m b e r o f
ti m e s . In t e r m s o f – a r e y o u a b l e t o g iv e a n i n d i c a t io n o f w h a t i t w o u l d
h a v e c o s t M r M o o d l e y t o a t te n d s u c h a n e v e n t t h a t m a y b e h e m i g h t
n e v e r h a v e a t te n d e d b e f o r e t h a t h e m i g h t r e a ll y n o t h a v e b e e n
in t e r e s te d in e x c e p t fo r t h e fa c t t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g th e r e – to g o t h e r e
a n d b e t h e r e f o r f iv e d a y s a n d c o m e b a c k . I s t h a t s o m e th i n g e a s y t o
in d i c a t e w h a t k i n d o f c o s t th a t w o u ld h a v e e n t a i l e d in t e r m s o f a m o u n t ?
10

MR MOLEFE:
way

we

plan

P a r t o f t h e c o s ts I w o u l d h a v e t o l d h i m .
it

we

n o r m a ll y

deal

with

Because the

a c c o m m o d a ti o n ,

what

a c c o m m o d a ti o n is g o in g t o c o s t if y o u r e n t a h o u s e . H o t e l s a r e ju s t t o o
e x p e n s iv e s o I w o u l d – I h a v e n e v e r s t a y e d i n a h o t e l . I a s k f a m il ie s
for that week.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : To l e a v e t h e ir h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : I s t a y t h e r e I l e a v e i t i n th e m a n n e r in w h i c h I fo u n d i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M O L E F E : A n d I c o m e b a c k f r o m h o l i d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : T h e – t h e – i f h e w a s g o i n g t o f ly b u s i n e s s c la s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : H e w o u ld h a v e h a d to p a y i n th e r e g io n o f R 8 6 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
I f h e w a n te d fir s t c l a s s i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m o r e .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : A n d f o r t h e b a d g e s f o r th e M a s t e r s th a t ti m e b e c a u s e it
h a d n o t b e c o m e v e r y e x p e n s iv e a t t h e ti m e f o r t h e M a s t e r s b a d g e s h e
w o u ld h a v e h a d t o s p e n d a p p r o x i m a t e l y R 1 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . I f h e h a d w a n te d
t o a d d – a n d t h a t is f o u r d a y s o f – b u t i f h e h a d w a n t e d t o a d d M o n d a y,
Tu e s d a y, W e d n e s d a y h e w o u l d m o s t p r o b a b ly h a v e p a i d a n a d d i ti o n a l
R 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 s o a d d i ti o n a l R 1 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 . A n d t h e n o f c o u r s e h e w o u ld h a v e
h a d to d e a l w i t h t h e t r a n s f e r s fr o m t h e a i r p o r t a n d b a c k t o t h e a ir p o r t .
A n d h e w o u l d h a v e h a d t o a ls o p a y fo r h i s a c c o m m o d a ti o n . I t h i n k a t
10

t h a t ti m e y o u c o u ld g e t a c c o m m o d a ti o n a t 1 8 0 0 U S D o l la r s p e r n i g h t a t
t h e ti m e . I f y o u w e r e u s i n g t h e h o t e l a c c o m m o d a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e h o t e l.
M R M O L E F E : B u t i f y o u w e r e u s in g a h o u s e t h e b a ll p a r k f ig u r e w o u l d
h a v e b e e n 6 5 0 0 .0 0 a n d n o r m a l ly w e c h o o s e a f o u r b e d r o o m h o u s e a n d
w e d iv i d e th a t a m o u n t b y f o u r w h ic h g a v e u s s o m e t h i n g l ik e s a y 1
s o m e t h i n g li k e 1 2 6 0 .0 0 o r s o .
CHAIRPERSON: 1 000 something.
M R M O L E F E : J a 1 0 0 0 s o m e t h i n g D o l la r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

MR MOLEF E: Ja.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o t h i s
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t is …
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m s o s o r r y – s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A t r o u g h ly d o e s t h a t m e a n h e m a y h a v e t o

s p e n d n o l e s s t h a n w h a t R 1 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 o r is i t m o r e ? I ju s t w a n t to h a v e

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
a n id e a .
M R M O L E F E : I t w a s m o r e . I f w e w e r e t o g o a c c o r d in g to h i s p la n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm. Hm.

M R M O L E F E : H e w o u ld h a v e s p e n t m o r e th a n a m i ll io n a n d a h a l f o r
p r o b a b ly 2 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o ?
M R M O L E F E : I f h e in c l u d e d h i m s e l f , h is fr ie n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: Me, my wife.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : A n d h e s a id c h il d r e n . I d o n o t k n o w w h ic h c h i ld r e n h e
w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: And then all these other things and he says he was – he
w o u ld p r o v id e s u b s i s t e n c e . S o y o u ta lk in g i n th e r e g i o n o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t l e s s t h a n a m il li o n .
MR MOLEFE:

2 m i l li o n b u t h i m s e l f a lo n e i t w o u l d h a v e c o s t h i m – i t

w o u ld h a v e c o s t h i m ju s t f o r a c c o m m o d a t io n a n d th e b a d g e s i t w o u l d
h a v e – h i m a l o n e i t w o u l d h a v e c o s t h i m i n t h e r e g io n o f 3 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0
20

a n d i t i s s o b e c a u s e h e w a s c h o o s in g a n a c c o m m o d a ti o n t h a t w o u l d
h a v e b e e n e x p e n s iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n R 3 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 p e r p e r s o n .
M R M O L E F E : Ye s . A n d t h a t d o e s n o t i n c l u d e a ir ti c k e ts .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y ?

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
M R M O L E F E : I t d o e s n o t i n c l u d e a i r t ic k e t s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : H e – o h w it h o u t a i r t i c k e ts .
M R M O L E F E : J a . W i th o u t a ir t ic k e ts .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

And that would therefore be another 100 –

86 000?
M R M O L E F E : Yo u w o u l d h a v e h a d t o a d d a n o t h e r 8 6 0 0 0 p e r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

And depending on the numbers of course it would

b a ll o o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I see Mr Soni we have gone beyond four

o ’c l o c k .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k w e w e r e u n a w a r e . W e a r e a t t w e n t y p a s t .

Maybe we could go up to half past.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t f i n e M r M o l e f e ?
M R M O L E F E : I t is fi n e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m a y b e le t u s g o t o h a l f p a s t .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w e a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w – o n e o f th e c o n tr a c ts t h a t y o u n o te d t h a t I
h a d m e n ti o n e d b e fo r e w e s t a r t e d t a lk i n g a b o u t M o o d l e y – M r M o o d l e y
w a s t h e S iy a n g e n a C o n t a c t Mr M o le f e .
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th e S w i f a m b o I a m g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h a li t t le l a te r.

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I j u s t w a n t t o d e a l w i t h o n e s m a ll a s p e c t o f t h a t n o w. W h a t fr o m y o u r
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e r e la t io n s h i p s d i d M r M o o d l e y h a v e t o d o w i t h t h e
S iy a n g e n a – M r M o o d l e y o r h i s c o m p a n i e s h a v e t o d o w i t h t h e
S iy a n g e n a C o n tr a c t s ?
MR

MOLEFE:

r e l a ti o n s h i p

The

issue

–

these

became

matters

apparent

C h a ir p e r s o n
a ft e r

we

became

had

that

conducted

in v e s t i g a t io n s o n a n u m b e r o f c o n tr a c t s w h ic h i n c l u d e d t h is p a r ti c u l a r
one.

A n d i n t h i s o n e it w a s c l e a r t h a t h e h a d a n a s s o c ia t io n – a n

a s s o c i a t e le t m e n o t c a ll i t i n te r e s t – a s s o c ia t io n w i t h – w i th S i y a n g e n a .
10

A n d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s o f c o u r s e b e g g in g t h e i n d u l g e n c e o f c o u n s e l t h a t
a r e a r is i n g o u t o f t h a t c o n t r a c t a n d a s b o r n e b y t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n s a
s u m o f R 5 0 0 m il li o n w a s p a i d to M r M o o d l e y f o r n o w o r k d o n e fo r
P R A S A . F o r h i m n o t b e i n g a s h a r e h o l d e r e i t h e r o f S iy a n g e n a .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f t h e Si y a n g e n a C o n tr a c t

a r i s e s fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t P R A S A h a d b r o u g h t a n a p p li c a t io n t o s e t a s i d e
that contract. Would I be correct?
M R M O L E F E : I t is c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r p o s i t io n in P R A S A a t t h e t i m e
t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n w a s m a d e ?
20

M R M O L E F E : A t t h e ti m e w h e n th a t a p p l ic a t io n w a s b r o u g h t u p I – I
t h i n k I w a s s t il l t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n y e s .
M R M O L E F E : B u t o f c o u r s e s h o r t ly th e r e a f te r I – my t e r m e n d e d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i n r e g a r d to …
MR MOLEFE:

N o – I w a s n o t C h a i r m a n o f t h e B o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
because I remember very well the debate in court where the court
d is m i s s e d o u r a p p l ic a ti o n . I t w a s b a s e d o n t h e P a g a R u l e o f 1 0 0 d a y s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : 1 8 0 d a y s .
MR MOLEFE:

A n d t h e n o f c o u r s e t h e – t h e c o u r t w a s s a y in g y o u

P R A S A y o u s h o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t t h is a p p li c a t io n m u c h e a r l i e r t h a n
t o d a y. O f c o u r s e t h e c o u r t w a s l o o k i n g a t u s a s a n o r g a n is a ti o n – a s
a n in s ti t u t i o n . I t w a s n o t s a y in g t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d j o i n e d la t e r
a n d t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d b e c a m e a w a r e o n ly a f t e r in v e s ti g a t io n s
h a d b e e n c o n d u c t e d . T h e C h a ir m a n – th e c o u r t s a y s y o u a r e P R A S A .
10

Yo u h a v e h a d y o u r o w n m a n a g e m e n t.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : Yo u s h o u ld h a v e d o n e it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M u c h e a r li e r.
M R M O L E F E : M u c h e a r li e r a n d o f c o u r s e t h e J u d g e w a s n o t i n te r e s t e d
in l o o k in g a t t h e m e r i ts o f t h e c a s e s o i t w a s d is m i s s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : I t h i n k I a m a d v i s e d t h a t t o P R A S A w e n t b a c k t o a s k fo r
a n a p p e a l o f t h a t j u d g m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e i t i s a l e g a l is s u e m a y I
ju s t p u t i t a t t h e r is k o f b e i n g a c c u s e d o f g iv i n g e v id e n c e .

What had

h a p p e n e d is th e H i g h C o u r t r u l e d t h a t PA G A a p p l i e d e v e n w h e n th e r e is
a s e l f- r e v i e w b y a n o r g a n o f s t a te .

O f c o u r s e in t h e G a g e m a M a t te r

y o u r c o u r t M r C h a ir m a n t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n a l C o u r t t h e n s a i d t h a t PA G A
d o e s n o t a p p ly i n s e l f- r e v i e w m a t t e r s th e p r i n c i p l e – t h e s e l f- r e v i e w i s

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
b r o u g h t o n th e b a s i s o f t h e p r i n c ip le o f l e g a li ty a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e 1 8 0
d a y r u l e d o e s n o t a p p ly.

A n d t h e r e f o r e a ft e r t h e G a g e m a J u d g m e n t

P R A S A w e n t b a c k to c o u r t w i t h a n e w a p p l ic a t i o n to r e - s e e k t h e s a m e
r e l i e f t h a t h a d b e e n r e j e c t e d b y t h e c o u r t t h e n a n d th a t i s t h e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t is n o w b e f o r e t h e c o u r t . B u t M s N g o y e w i ll
g iv e e v id e n c e a b o u t th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o I th o u g h t I w o u l d ju s t c o m p le t e t h a t p a r t o f th e
10

( in d is ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s o k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w w h a t is th e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u – w e l l s o m e o f
t h e m a t te r s t h a t y o u d e a lt w i t h M r M o l e fe w h e n y o u w e r e s a y in g t h e r e
w e r e d is r u p t io n s a n d th a t i s w h y y o u – y o u in d i c a t e d to M r M o o d l e y t h a t
y o u w e r e n o t g o in g t o g o t o A u g u s t a .

Yo u r e m e m b e r y o u s a i d t h a t?

T h e r e w e r e – th e d is r u p ti o n s a t P R A S A .
MR MOLEFE:

I am saying that the reason I gave him was that I had

t h a t e m e r g e n c y a r is in g o u t o f t h o s e d is r u p ti o n s .

B u t I m u s t a ls o s a y

t h a t t h a t r e a s o n w a s g i v e n w i t h i n t h e c o n t e x t o f m e h a v in g b e c o m e
20

a w a r e o f w h a t h e h a d b e e n d o in g t o tr y a n d s e c u r e m o n e y i n m y n a m e
a n d m y f a m i ly.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t I w a n t t o q u ic k ly w i t h it f o r t h e n e x t c o u p l e o f
m i n u t e s s o w e c a n f in is h t h i s i s s u e .

If you look at paragraph 47.1 to

4 7 . 6 a r e th o s e th e m a t te r s t h a t i n g e n e r a l y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g a s
c r e a ti n g d is r u p t i o n s a r o u n d th a t ti m e ?

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MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Th e s e a r e th e m a t t e r s

w h ic h w e r e c r e a t e i n th a t c li m a t e fo r d is r u p t io n . A n d I a m a w a r e t h a t
w h il s t h e r e l a y e d d i r e c t ly t o th e c o n d u c t – w e l l if th e r e – I a m a w a r e
t h a t th e y r e la t e a ls o to t h e c o n d u c t o f th e t h e n G r o u p C E O n e v e r t h e le s s
t h e y – I a m n o w ta k i n g t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y o f C o u n s e l w h e r e I d o n o t
t h i n k th e y a r e g e r m a n e t o S t a t e C a p t u r e p e r s e b u t th e y m e r e ly s h o w
t h a t t h is is w h a t w a s b e i n g f e r m e n t e d a t t h e t i m e to c r e a t e i n s t a b i li ty.
P r o b a b ly if p e o p le w e r e n o t r e a ll y i n ti m i d a t e d s o m e o f th e m w o u l d h a v e
c o m e t o s a y, w e w e r e a c t u a ll y a d v is e d i n a t e le c o n f e r e n c e w i t h o n e o f
10

t h e M i n i s te r s th a t w e n e e d e d to k e e p th e h e a t u p s o t h a t g o v e r n m e n t
c a n ju s ti fy r e m o v in g th is B o a r d .

B u t i n t h e a b s e n c e o f p e o p le w i t h

c o u r a g e t o s a y t h e s e t h i n g s t h e r e is v e r y li t tl e I c a n – I c a n d o a b o u t
them.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

S o w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g M r M o l e fe is th is t h a t

a r o u n d t h e ti m e t h e B o a r d w a s r e m o v e d y o u w e r e t o ld a n d I k n o w t h e
p e o p l e a r e n o t g o i n g t o c o m e a n d s a y th is .
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t y o u w e r e t o l d t h a t th e g o v e r n m e n t w a s p u t ti n g
o n t h e h e a t o n p e o p l e – w e ll I m e a n e n c o u r a g i n g p e o p l e to p u t t h e h e a t
20

on the Board?
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

S o t h a t th e y c o u l d ju s ti fy r e m o v i n g t h e B o a r d

because to just come in and say go they could not. So you needed to
c r e a te a c l i m a te a n d y o u s a y, t h is o r g a n i s a ti o n i s u n s t a b l e , t h e B o a r d i s
n o t o p e r a t in g p r o p e r ly. I t d o e s n o t e n j o y t h e lo y a l ty a n d a l l e g ia n c e o f
t h e e m p l o y e e s a n d th e u n i o n s – r e m o v e th e m .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u s a y fr o m w h a t y o u w e r e t o ld t h a t a C a b in e t

M i n is t e r w a s i n v o l v e d .
MR MOLEFE:

I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON:

Ar e y o u s a y i n g fr o m w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d a C a b i n e t

M i n is t e r w a s t o b e p a r t?
MR MOLEFE:

I w a s to ld s o , a n d t o b e s p e c i f ic I w a s t o l d t h a t i t w a s a

t e l e c o n f e r e n c e w i th M r J e ff R a d e b e , a n d I w is h th e i n d i v i d u a ls w h o
w e r e t h e r e in t h a t d i s c u s s io n w e r e w i ll in g t o g iv e t h a t e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e
w h a t i t d o e s i t s h o w s ju s t h o w d e t e r m i n e d a t a v e r y h i g h l e v e l, p o li t ic a l
10

le v e l, p e o p le w h o s e r e s p o n s ib il i ty it w a s t o r u n g o v e r n m e n t a n d e n s u r e
t h a t th e r e is e ff e c t iv e d e l iv e r y o f s e r v ic e s to t h e p o o r p e o p l e o f t h is
c o u n tr y w e r e d e t e r m i n e d t o r e m o v e t h o s e w h o w a n te d o r d e r i n t h e s e
in s t i tu t io n s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Mmm.
. . . in t h e s e in s ti t u t i o n s a n d t h a t o f c o u r s e o n e w i ll s e e

la t e r o n e v e n t h e b e h a v io u r o f m e m b e r s o f P a r l ia m e n t w h e n w e c o m e to
that later on.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
20

J u s t o n th a t s c o r e , a n d I a m g o in g t o e n d o n th is

n o t e M r C h a ir p e r s o n , i f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 4 6 . 6 t h is i s a d o c u m e n t
t h a t y o u s a y i s i n d ic a t iv e , t h is is t h e d o c u m e n t P R A S A i n t u r m o i l w h ic h
is i n d ic a ti v e o f t h o s e a t t e m p ts to p u t t h e h e a t o n t h e B o a r d .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , th a t is w h a t I a m s a y in g .

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l M r S o n i w h o e v e r is w a tc h i n g o r l is te n in g h e r e

d o e s n ’t k n o w w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , I a m s o r r y.

M r M o le f e i n –

w h a t i s t h e is s u e y o u r a is e d i n p a r a g r a p h 4 7 . 6 , I a m s o r r y I s h o u l d h a v e
a s k e d f o r t h o s e d e t a ils f ir s t .
MR MOLEFE:

T h e is s u e I a m r a is in g i s t h a t w e h a v e a B o a r d m e e ti n g

a n d t h a t m e e ti n g w a s i n M a y o f 2 0 1 5 , w e e x p e c t m a n a g e m e n t l e d b y Mr
M o n ta n a t o p r e s e n t a r e p o r t , m a n a g e m e n t r e p o r t , w h ic h i n n o r m a l
c o m p a n i e s w o u l d r e f l e c t p e r f o r m a n c e in a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e ta r g e ts o f
m a n a g e m e n t , g iv e a s t a tu s o f w h e r e w e a r e w i th t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

Th e S t a te o f t h e c o m p a n y.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

S ta t e o f t h e c o m p a n y.

Mmm.

B u t s u d d e n ly in t h a t r e p o r t t h e r e ’s t h i s s e c ti o n th a t s a y s

P R A S A i s i n tu r m o i l , o u t o f t h e b l u e a n d w e g e t t o l d b y t h e G r o u p C E O
t h a t P R A S A is i n tu r m o i l.

T h a t d a y a s h e is t e l li n g t h e B o a r d t h a t

P R A S A i s in t u r m o il h e i s p r iv y to t h e a r r a n g e m e n t o f a m u c h a n d a
d e m o n s t r a t io n a n d . .. [ in d is ti n c t ] t h a t w a s t o h a p p e n a t t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s
o f P R A S A o f w h ic h w e g o t w i n d a d a y o r s o b e f o r e a n d w e d e c i d e d th a t
w e a r e n o t g o i n g to s i t t h e r e a n d h a v e t h e m e e t in g o f t h e B o a r d
d is r u p t e d s o w e ’r e g o i n g t o c h o o s e a n o t h e r v e n u e , s o w e t o o k t h e
20

m e e ti n g t o a d i ff e r e n t v e n u e , b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e h o l d in g s
p l a c a r d s , in c i t in g t h e C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d a n d t h e M i n i s t e r w i th l o ts o f
m e d i a c o v e r a g e a n d Mr M o n t a n a s a y s t o m e t h e m a r c h e r s h a v e a s k e d
t h a t y o u m u s t c o m e a n d r e c e iv e t h e m e m o r a n d u m , s o I s a i d I a m n o t
g o i n g t h e r e , I a m n o t g o i n g t o g o th e r e , w e h a v e a b o a r d m e e ti n g h e r e
y o u k n e w t h a t th is m u c h w a s h a p p e n i n g , y o u h a v e b e e n b r ie f e d a b o u t

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
e v e r y t h i n g , y o u n o w g o o n b e h a l f o f th e B o a r d to r e c e iv e t h a t
memorandum and address those people.
S o w e h a d a l l o f t h e s e k in d s o f a c ti v i ti e s t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g
a n d o f c o u r s e a s t h a t r e p o r t w a s g i v e n , a s P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l I h a d a ls o
f o u n d a m u c h m o r e d e t a i le d o n e w h ic h w a s l e a k e d b y t h e m e d i a a n d
t h e y g o t i t fr o m t h e o ff ic e o f M in is t e r J e ff R a d e b e , a c o p y o f w h ic h a t
t h e ti m e I g a v e t o M i n i s t e r D i p a u P e t e r s to s a y l o o k th is i s w h a t is
h a p p e n in g a n d t h is d o c u m e n t c o m e s fr o m th is o ff ic e , h a s th e M in is t e r
in t h e P r e s i d e n c y a d v is e d y o u o f t h is . S h e h a d n o t h e a r d a b o u t i t u n t il
10

I g a v e i t t o h e r.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d s h e c o n fir m e d t h a t t o y o u , t h a t s h e d i d n ’ t

have the document.
MR MOLEFE:

S h e c o n f ir m e d th a t s h e d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t , th e n

a t t h e m e e ti n g c o n v e n e d b y M r J e ff R a d e b e , M i n is t e r J e ff R a d e b e o n
b e h a l f o f t h e P r e s id e n t o n o r a b o u t t h e 2 0 t h o f A u g u s t M i n is t e r P e t e r s
p o i n t e d l y a s k e d M i n is t e r R a d e b e y o u h a v e t h i s k i n d o f d o c u m e n t, i t
d e a ls w i t h m a t t e r s t h a t p e r t a i n s t o t h e S t a te O w n e d C o m p a n y t h a t
r e p o r t s to m e , w h y a r e y o u n o t s h a r i n g t h a t d o c u m e n t w it h m e , I n e e d
t h a t d o c u m e n t . O f c o u r s e Mr R a d e b e d e n i e d th a t h e h a d t h e d o c u m e n t ,
20

h e s a y s n o , h e d id n ’t h a v e it , b u t I w o u ld i m a g i n e p a r t o f t h a t
d is c u s s io n i s f o r l a t e r o n i n t h e e v id e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w e n e e d t o s to p n o w, i t i s b e y o n d h a l f p a s t fo u r,

b u t a f te r I h a d r e a d y o u r a ff i d a v i t I m e n ti o n e d to , I a s k e d M r S o n i
whether we do have a copy of that document and I understood that
a tt e m p ts t o tr y a n d g e t a c o p y h a d n o t b e e n s u c c e s s f u l , I a m h o p in g

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
t h a t a t s o m e s t a g e w e w il l g e t i t , s o I j u s t m e n ti o n e d t h a t b e c a u s e i t
m i g h t b e i m p o r ta n t .
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s i t i s tr u e t h a t a t te m p t s t o f in d i t w e r e u n s u c c e s s f u l

b u t w e d o h a v e a d o c u m e n t t h a t r e fe r s b r i e fl y t o t h e s e c t io n i n t h e
r e p o r t o f t h e G r o u p C E O t h a t s a i d P R A S A w a s i n t u r m o il .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O h , o k a y.
B u t i t is a s e p a r a t e d o c u m e n t , I a m s u r e w e c a n f in d

that one.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h , i s it a d o c u m e n t th a t s h o u l d b e h e r e a lr e a d y in

the bundle or not?
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t is n o t y e t in t h e b u n d l e .

B u t a t te m p t s w i ll b e m a d e to l e t u s s e e w h a t e v e r w e

c a n s e e in t e r m s o f w h a t e v e r w a s r e f e r r e d t o o r q u o t e d , ja .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

C h a ir p e r s o n j u s t f o r y o u r i n fo r m a t i o n w e h a v e

d e c i d e d t o a s k Mr M o n t a n a , w h o a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n t h e a u t h o r o f th e
d o c u m e n t fo r a c o p y o f th e d o c u m e n t .

H e h a s b e e n c i t e d in t h e 3 2

N o t ic e s a n d t h e r e i s n o r e a s o n w e c a n ’t f o r m a ll y a s k h i m f o r t h a t
document.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , n o th a t ’s fi n e , b u t o b v i o u s l y I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t

o th e r a tt e m p ts w e r e m a d e b u t e v e r y a t te m p t s h o u l d b e m a d e t o g e t a
c o p y o f t h a t d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e it m i g h t t h r o w li g h t o n c e r ta in is s u e s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

I n d e e d C h a ir.

T h a t w e h a v e t o l o o k i n to .

O k a y, w e a r e g o i n g t o

a d j o u r n fo r th e d a y, i t is t w e n ty t o fiv e a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t n o r m a l
ti m e t o m o r r o w a t t e n a m .

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12 MARCH 2020 – DAY 222
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:
REGISTRAR:

As it pleases.

We adjourn.

A ll r is e .

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 3 M A R C H 2 0 2 0

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