C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 12 SEPTEMB ER 2019 D AY 1 6 2 20 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE ON 12 SEPT EMBER 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Are you – we ready? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s w e a r e C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Ys. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . C h a ir c o u n s e l fo r M r M o ts o e n e n g w o u l d li k e t o a d d r e s s y o u o n a n a s p e c t – o n a n is s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a t is fi n e . 10 A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I w il l b e v e r y b r ie f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : B e c a u s e I w a n t t o e n s u r e t h a t w e c o n t in u e with the proceedings in – with due haste. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : C h a ir t h e r e i s t h e m is le a d i n g s t h a t c o m i n g fr o m m e d ia a g a i n t h a t k e e p o n b e [i n d i s t in c t ] . I do not know as the c o m m i s s io n I a m a w a r e t h a t y o u h a v e p o w e r s to e n s u r e t h a t s u c h a 20 r e s p o n s i b l e r e p o r ti n g c a n b e c u r t a il e d i n t h e i n te r e s t o f t h e c o m m i s s io n b e c a u s e t h e m o r e t h e y a r e p e r p e tu a te d t h e m o r e M r M o ts o e n e n g f e e ls in c li n e d to r e s p o n d to t h o s e is s u e s . So remember and I have noted with of concern also th a t a number j u d g m e n ts they do make c o n s i d e r a ti o n o f m e d i a r e p o r ts a n d y o u h a v e h e a r d i t y o u r s e lf b e f o r e t h is c o m m i s s i o n h o w S u n d a y Ti m e s r e p o r t e r s w e r e a ll e g e d ly p a id t o Page 2 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 w r i t e n e g a t iv e s t o r i e s a b o u t c e r t a i n i n d iv i d u a ls . A n d w e w o u l d li k e to b e li e v e i t i s th e s a m e n a r r a t iv e w i t h Mr M o ts o e n e n g . I f t h a t – is t h e r e is s o m e f o r m o f o r d e r t h a t c a n b e m a d e t o c u r e s u c h a d v e r s e r e p o r ti n g u n t il p e r h a p s w h e n t h e c o m m i s s io n h a s b e e n i ts fi n d i n g s t h e n t h e m e d i a c a n t h e n m a k e t h e ir o w n fi n d i n g s a s w e ll CHAIRPERSON: Maybe what you can do while e v e r y t h in g is p r o c e e d i n g i s to j u s t d r a ft s o m e th in g t h a t t e l ls m e w h a t i t is t h a t t h e m e d i a h a s s a id t h a t is m i s l e a d i n g s o t h a t – a n d if p o s s i b l e w h ic h m e d i a h o u s e s a n d s o o n s o t h a t I c a n l o o k a t i t p r o p e r ly a n d i f I w a n t t o s a y 10 s o m e t h i n g I c a n s a y i t fr o m a n in f o r m e d b a s e s . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e n d u r i n g – i f d u r i n g t h e t e a b r e a k i t is r e a d y I c a n h a v e a l o o k a t it o r if i t is r e a d y l a t e r o n I c a n h a v e a l o o k a t i t . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W e w i ll c e r t a i n l y d o t h a t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I s t h a t f in e ? A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 20 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Thank you. Thank you. Mr M o ts o e n e n g y e s t e r d a y w e l e f t o ff w h ils t y o u w e r e e x p l a in in g t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h o w t h e M u l ti C h o ic e a g r e e m e n t c a m e a b o u t . Ye s y o u w e r e a t a p o in t w h e n y o u w e r e – th e C h a ir h a d a s k e d w h y M u lt i C h o ic e a n d y o u w e r e e x p l a i n in g t h a t w h e n w e p a r t e d . Ye s c o u l d y o u c o n ti n u e e x p l a i n i n g h o w that agreement was reached? Page 3 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : O r h e m i g h t h a v e p a s s e d th a t p o in t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u t h i n k s o C h a ir ? O h C H A I R P E R S O N : I f I a m n o t m is t a k e n I t h i n k h e w a s a t a p o i n t w h e r e h e w a s n e g o ti a ti n g w it h M u l ti C h o ic e a f t e r D o c to r N g u b a n e a n d t h e n GCEO A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H a d f a i le d . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d fa il e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d h e w a s I t h i n k a t t h e p o i n t w h e r e t h e y le f t h i m a l o n e in t h e r o o m o r s o m e th i n g a n d t h a t is a t M u l t iC h o ic e a n d I t h i n k h e w a s g o i n g to c o n ti n u e fr o m t h e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : I m a y b e m is t a k e n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s y o u a r e q u i t e r i g h t. W h e n th e t e m p e r s had gone down. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e t e m p e r s h a d g o n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I t h in k t h a t is w h a t h e s a id y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t c o r r e c t M r M o ts o e n e n g ? Is t h a t w h e r e y o u were? 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: B u t C h a ir m a y b e b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 4 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k y o u w i ll a ls o a p p r e c i a t e C h a ir th a t th e is s u e s a r e s o s e r i o u s a n d t h e y a ffe c t m y c h il d r e n e s p e c i a l ly w h e n p e o p l e s p r e a d li e s w h e n m y c h il d r e n a r e s ti ll a t s c h o o l . Yo u k n o w t h is is s u e s C h a i r a r e s e r i o u s b e c a u s e th e m e d i a is s t il l p u r s u i n g th e is s u e s to p o r tr a y m e a s a b a d p e r s o n e v e n in th is c o m m i s s io n C h a ir p e r s o n . I a m a w a r e C h a ir y o u ju s t a d d r e s s e d th e is s u e w i th m y c o u n s e l C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e m e d i a t a l k a b o u t th e s e is s u e s e v e n t h e c h i ld r e n t h e y t a lk a b o u t t h e s e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e s e a r e s e r i o u s i s s u e s C h a i r p e r s o n . T h e y m a y 10 n o t a ff e c t m e b e c a u s e I a m u s e d t o t h is k i n d o f is s u e s b u t w h e n i t c o m e s t o m y f a m il y, w h e n i t c o m e s t o my c h il d r e n a t s c h o o l t h e s e a r e v e r y s e r i o u s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t is w h y C h a ir p e r s o n I a p p r e c i a te t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t h a t y o u h a v e g i v e n m e t o c o m e a n d te ll m y o w n s t o r y C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e fi r s t p o i n t C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t I w a n t t o a d d r e s s y e s t e r d a y C h a ir p e r s o n y o u e v e n s a id to m e a n d c o r r e c t my a ffi d a v i t - in y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I d o n o t t h i n k t h is ti m e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y w e r e m a l ic io u s o n t h e i s s u e s w h e n t h e y w e r e r e p o r t i n g . I t h in k i t w a s 4 0 3 c h a n n e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y. 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n o t th i n k s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h e y w e r e m a l ic io u s a n d o th e r m e d i a h o u s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B u t I t h i n k i t is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o n t h e is s u e s th a t w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h . CHAIRPERSON: Okay so it might Page 5 of 169 have been just la c k of 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 u n d e r s t a n d in g . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: Advocate Norman asked me a b o u t th r e a te n in g j o u r n a li s t s b u t s h e d i d n o t p u t li k e – lik e t h a t . But w h e n t h e y r e p o r t th e y w e r e s a y i n g t h a t I a c c e p t e d t h a t I h a v e t h r e a t e n e d j o u r n a lis t s . I h a v e n e v e r a c c e p te d C h a i r p e r s o n th a t I h a v e t h r e a t e n e d jo u r n a l is ts . A d v o c a te w a s ju s t c o n f ir m i n g th e d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n m e a n d t h o s e j o u r n a l is ts w h ic h I c o n f ir m e d C h a i r p e r s o n . 10 B e c a u s e I s a i d I d o n o t w a n t t o m is l e a d t h e c o m m is s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: A n d i f I s a i d s o C h a ir p e r s o n w h y s h o u l d I s a y I d id n o t s a y t h e s e is s u e s . B u t I a m n o t a c c e p ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: That I was wrong. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Because the Advocate did not m a k e f o l lo w - u p to s a y b u t w h a t y o u m e a n t C h a ir p e r s o n . L i k e o n e o f t h e e x a m p l e i t is e d u c a ti o n . I w a s s to p p i n g jo u r n a li s t s t o f u l f il th e m a n d a te 20 o f e d u c a t io n . Th a t o n e I h a v e a l r e a d y r e s p o n d e d b y s a y in g w h e n y o u lo o k t h e B r o a d c a s t in g Ac t a c t u a ll y i t i s u n l a w f u l t o g l a m o u r i z e v i o l e n c e it is n o t i n t h e i n t e r e s t o f t h e p u b li c b u t th e m a n d a t e o f S A B C is to e d u c a t e . Yo u c a n n o t e d u c a t e p e o p le in s u c h a w a y. S o I h a v e a lr e a d y r e s p o n d e d o n s u c h is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n . I a m ju s t m a k i n g e x a m p le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 6 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: Because I do not want to prolong. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A l o n g t h e s e is s u e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , n o t h a t i s f i n e th a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e f o r – f o r w h a t i t is w o r t h I m u s t j u s t s a y t h a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g y o u h a v e i n p a r t o f w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d y o u h a v e m a d e a v e r y i m p o r t a n t d i s t i n c ti o n a n d I h o p e t h e m e d ia a p p r e c i a t e s 10 t h a t . W h e r e y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y w h a t t h e y r e p o r t e d is n o t c o r r e c t b u t y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t m a l ic i o u s . It may have been just m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g . B e c a u s e t h e r e a r e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e p e o p le s a y t h e m e d ia is m a lic io u s . T h e y k n o w t h e tr u t h . B u t t h e y a r e r e p o r t i n g in t h is w a y b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e c e r t a in a g e n d a s . B u t y o u a r e s a y in g i n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r c a s e a b o u t y e s te r d a y y o u d o n o t t h i n k t h e y w e r e m a l ic i o u s you think it might just have been lack of understanding of what had been said. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . Th a n k y o u . So t h e n w e p r o c e e d th e n f r o m w h e r e w e l e f t o ff y e s t e r d a y o n th e M u l ti C h o ic e is s u e . Th a n k y o u c o u ld y o u p r o c e e d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e te m p e r s w e n t u p . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And down. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. I t h i n k I w a s d e a li n g Page 7 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 w i t h n o w th e p r o c e s s a f t e r D o c t o r N g u b a n e a n d t h e f o r m e r G C E O M e L u l a m a a n d I s a i d C h a ir p e r s o n I a p p r o a c h D o c to r N g u b a n e t o s a y t o him I think I can achieve what they could not achieve. He agree with m e t o g o a n d a p p r o a c h M u lt i C h o ic e C h a ir p e r s o n . In s h o r t C h a ir p e r s o n t h e f ir s t m e e t in g I h a v e a lr e a d y a l lu d e d w h a t tr a n s p ir e d i n th a t m e e ti n g . I w il l g o fu r t h e r C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: O h I a m s o r r y. Is th a t t h e o n e w h e r e t e m p e r s w e n t high? MR 10 H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s i t i s t h e fi r s t o n e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t m e e t in g . B u t y o u – I d o n o t r e m e m b e r y o u t e ll i n g m e h o w i t e n d e d . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I d i d C h a ir y e s t e r d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Oh just remind me. M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s w h a t I s a i d C h a i r p e r s o n t h e fir s t m e e ti n g e v e n th e C O O o f M u l t iC h o i c e M r I m t i a z P a t e l w a lk o u t b e c a u s e w e c o u l d n o t a g r e e o n t h e – o n t h e m a t t e r s C h a ir p e r s o n . B e c a u s e i n n e g o ti a ti o n s C h a ir p e r s o n s o m e ti m e s y o u w il l t h r e a t e n p e o p l e . I n t h e in t e r e s t o f S A B C 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a n e g o t ia t in g ta c tic ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 8 of 169 I m u s t t e ll y o u th e tr u t h 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: B e c a u s e I s a id t o I m t i a z y o u know what… C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I k n o w t h a t e v e n u n io n s i n n e g o t ia t io n s th e y c a n t h r e a t e n a s tr ik e e v e n w h e n t h e y k n o w t h e y c a n n o t a ffo r d a s tr i k e . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n it is j u s t p a r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O f t h e s tr a t e g y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . S o I th r e a t e n h i m 10 a n d I m u s t b e h o n e s t C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d n o b u t y o u k n o w i f w e d o n o t a g r e e o n t h e s e i s s u e s I a m g o i n g t o c o u r t . B e c a u s e I b e li e v e t h a t w e h a v e a c a s e a t t h e S A B C a n d I h a v e g o t a d v ic e . T h e r e w a s n o a d v ic e C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e r e w a s n o a d v i c e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Yo u s a i d I s h a l l te ll y o u t h e tr u th C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m t e l li n g y o u t h e tr u th . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: There was no advice. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: And then I can see he was u n s e t t le d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: When the matter Page 9 of 169 And then 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d to h i m l o o k i n m y v i e w p r iv a t e s e c t o r s h o u l d c o n tr i b u t e t o p u b l ic b e c a u s e w h e t h e r y o u a r e p r iv a te i n d ir e c tl y y o u a r e b e n e fi ti n g fr o m c i tiz e n o f S o u th A f r ic a b y b u y i n g d e c o d e r s a n d o th e r s t u ff C h a ir p e r s o n . I s a i d y o u m u s t c o n tr i b u t e . S o t h a t m e e ti n g i t d i d n o t g o w e l l b e tw e e n t w o o f u s . H e l e f t t h e m e e t in g . N o w I w a s i n tr o u b le t h a t I a m n o t a c h i e v i n g w h a t I w a s l o o k i n g t o a c h ie v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e m e e t in g h e ld a t t h e M u l ti C h o ic e o ff ic e s ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I n t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Oh in the SABC. 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k e a r ly in t h e m o r n i n g . CHAIRPERSON: So when he walked… M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : H a lf p a s t f iv e o ’c lo c k . CHAIRPERSON: When he walked out he left you alone. H e l e ft y o u and he was leaving. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : H e l e f t m e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: Ye s h e l e f t m e a n d t h e n h e s p o k e t o m y PA b e c a u s e w h e n h e w a l k e d o u t my PA’s o ffic e h e m u s t g o t h r o u g h m y PA’s o ffic e t h e y j u s t ta lk I t h i n k h e w e n t o u t a n d t h e n I 20 c a l l e d m y PA , w e s i t d o w n a n d d is c u s s th e is s u e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d i d it l o o k lik e a t t h a t s t a g e t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s h a d collapsed? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t I h a d t o fi n d a w a y f o r h i m Page 10 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 s o t h a t I c a n e n g a g e h i m a g a in . A n d m y s tr a t e g y n o w w a s d is c u s s i n g t h e s p o r t s r ig h ts . B e c a u s e w e w e r e s til l n e g o ti a ti n g d i ff e r e n t m a t t e r s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a s k e d my PA a g a i n t o d o f o l l o w - u p w i th h i m a n d a s k f o r g iv e n e s s m a y b e th e w a y I h a v e p u t my is s u e s w i t h h i m a n d t h e n m y PA a s k e d h i m t o h a v e a n o t h e r m e e t in g w i t h m e . H e c a m e C h a ir p e r s o n . I w a s v e r y d o w n C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u k n o w n o w tr y i n g t o s h o w h i m t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e d o w n to e a r th n o w ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o r r y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Yo u w e r e d o w n t o e a r t h y o u w e r e n o t t h r e a te n in g now? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : J a C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . S o I d is c u s s I s h o w h i m a n d th e n h e s a i d b u t n o i t i s fi n e . H o w c a n w e a s s is t y o u ? I s a i d y o u c a n f u n d t h e S A B C b e c a u s e y o u k n o w t h a t w e a r e o p e r a ti n g u n d e r a n a l o g u e s o w e d o n o t h a v e a l l t h is tr a n s m i t te r s . E v e n t o d a y C h a ir p e r s o n S A B C i s n o t a b l e t o r e a c h a ll c i ti e s i n – o f S o u t h A fr ic a b e c a u s e o f a n a l o g u e . S o I s a i d i f y o u c a n a s s is t u s s o t h a t w e p u t th is c h a n n e l a s a p i lo t p r o j e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 W h e n w e m i g r a t e a t le a s t w e h a v e f o u r c h a n n e ls o n o u r p la t f o r m s C h a ir p e r s o n . Those were d is c u s s io n C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I t h i n k h e d id c o n c e d e t h a t h e is g o i n g to tr y h i s b o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n t o g o a n d t a lk t o t h e b o a r d a b o u t o u r d is c u s s io n w h ic h h e w e n t a n d c a m e b a c k t o s a y th e y a g r e e t o fu n d u s and then they put certain amount Chairperson. I do not remember e x a c tl y h o w m u c h t h e fi r s t p r o p o s a l a n d I tr i e d t o c a l l t h e f in a n c e t e a m Page 11 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 a n d th e h e a d o f te l e v i s i o n n o w I w a s t r y i n g t o c h e c k w h e th e r t h is b u d g e t is s u s ta in a b l e t h a t t h e y a r e s a y in g t h e y a r e g o i n g to f u n d u s . I t w a s n o t s u s t a i n a b le C h a ir p e r s o n . I w e n t b a c k n e g o ti a t e w it h h i m a g a i n . T h a t is w h y m a y b e C h a ir p e r s o n w e w e n t a r o u n d R 3 0 0 mi ll i o n p l u s C h a ir p e r s o n and then C h a ir p e r s o n and I am we agree. not g iv i n g He you went back e x a c tl y to his board correct numbers C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I a m t a lk i n g f r o m … C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t e s ti m a t e s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . H e w e n t b a c k 10 t o h is b o a r d . T h e y d i s c u s s e d C h a i r p e r s o n . T h e y a g r e e . W e a l s o h a v e a n o t h e r c h a n n e l w h ic h I n e g o ti a te d w h ic h is E n c o r e c h a n n e l . That c h a n n e l C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s a ls o a p i lo t p r o j e c t f o r u s t o b e r e a d y fo r d i g i t a l m i g r a ti o n . I f S A B C i s r e a d y t o mi g r a t e t h o s e c h a n n e ls C h a ir p e r s o n S A B C w il l b e h a v i n g fi v e c h a n n e ls o n th e i r b o u q u e t w h ic h a c c o r d i n g t o m e C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s a v e r y g o o d i n n o v a ti o n w i t h i n m y s ig h t to m a k e s u r e t h a t w h e n c h a n n e l – w h e n d i g i t a l m i g r a ti o n h a p p e n s a t l e a s t S A B C t h e y h a v e t h i s c h a n n e l C h a i r. A n d C h a ir p e r s o n i t is m y – it is m y v i e w th a t w h e n y o u t a lk a b o u t m y l e g a c y t h o s e t w o c h a n n e ls , t h e e m p lo y m e n t o f p e o p le . B e c a u s e w e e m p lo y p e o p l e e s p e c i a l ly 4 0 4 20 C h a ir p e r s o n . I t is g o o d f o r S o u th A f r i c a t o h a v e p e o p l e w h o c a n g o a n d n e g o ti a te C h a ir p e r s o n a n d tr y t o u s e t h e t a c ti c s C h a i r p e r s o n th a t I w a s u s i n g a n d t h a t t a c t ic C h a ir p e r s o n I d id n o t u s e h e r e in S o u t h A fr ic a . W h e n I j o i n e d t h e – n o t w h e n I j o in e d C h a ir p e r s o n . W h e n I w a s a c ti n g C O O S A B C t h e y w e r e h a v i n g b l a c k o u ts , s p o r ts b l a c k o u t . n o t w a tc h B a f a n a B a f a n a i n A f r i c a . T h e y c o u ld T h e y c o u l d n o t w a tc h B a f a n a Page 12 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 B a f a n a l o c a l ly h e r e a lw a y s i t w a s d e l a y e d . T h e s a m e t a c ti c s t h a t I u s e w i t h M u l ti C h o ic e I w e n t to Fr a n c e C h a i r p e r s o n . I m e t th is g u y i n Fr a n c e . I w a s w i t h t h e h e a d o f s p o r t s . T h r e e G C O w e n t t o n e g o ti a t e w i t h h i m th e y c o u l d n o t c o m e w i t h w h a t I c a m e w i th C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e y could not come. P e o p l e a t S A B C a n d p e o p le g e n e r a lly C h a ir p e r s o n e v e n o n r a d i o s a n d s o e s p e c i a l ly R o b e r t M a r a w a S h o w p e o p le w e r e s h o c k e d th a t I w a s a b l e t o a c h ie v e t h a t I c o u l d b r i n g s p o r t s b a c k . To d a y a s w e a r e s p e a k i n g C h a ir p e r s o n b l a c k o u t . I a m ju s t t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e b a c k g r o u n d C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y – I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e ju s t t o h a v e a lo o k a t w h a t D o c to r N g u b a n e and Ms Mokhobo had on th e table when they n e g o ti a te d with M u l ti C h o ic e a n d l o o k in g a t w h a t y o u h a d – w h a t y o u g o t . N o w i n t e r m s o f w h a t t h e y d i s c u s s e d w i t h M u l ti C h o ic e t h e r e w a s t h e R 5 0 m il li o n – t h e r e w a s t h e fis s u r e o f R 5 0 m il li o n . N o w t h e R 5 0 m i lli o n w a s g o in g t o b e g o i n g d o w n y e a r b y y e a r u n t il t h e r e w a s n o p a y m e n t t o b e m a d e , is 20 t h a t r ig h t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s g o in g to b e a p a y m e n t f o r w h a t ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n t o h a v e a c h a n n e l . It w a s g o i n g to b e a p a y m e n t Th e s a m e c h a n n e l 2 4 h o u r n e w s channel. Page 13 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O n th e D S T V b o u q u e t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o t h e p a y m e n t w o u ld b e fr o m S A B C t o M u l ti C h o ic e ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Th e p a y m e n t w il l b e fr o m M u l ti C h o ic e t o S A B C . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: But now it was SABC which needed a channel. 10 MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: Ye s . S A B C i n i ti a t e d t h e channel. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t th e y d i d n o t h a v e f u d i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : To p u t a c h a n n e l . T h a t is w h y t h e y w e n t a n d r e q u e s t M u l ti C h o ic e t o f u n d . CHAIRPERSON: Oh so it was a request for funding? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d w h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e t h e r e fo r M u l t iC h o i c e t o b e n e fi t fr o m th a t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o t h i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o t h i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: T h e y w o u l d g o t o M u l t iC h o ic e a n d s a y w e w a n t a fourth – another channel. W e d o n o t h a v e m o n e y p l e a s e fu n d i t a n d Page 14 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M u l ti C h o ic e s a i d y e s w e c a n f u n d it b u t w e w il l s t a r t fi r s t y e a r R 5 0 m il li o n , s e c o n d y e a r l e s s u n t il t h e f if t h y e a r. A f te r t h a t y o u m u s t s e e for yourself. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t I c a n – I d o n o t k n o w t h e ir d i s c u s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o I c a n o n ly t a lk a b o u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u u n d e r s to o d a s y o u – t h e s t o r y y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: 10 Ye s I c a n o n ly t a l k a b o u t m y d is c u s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W i th M u l t iC h o i c e . Remember C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d I h a v e t h r e a te n e d t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o n o . i … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t th e b e n e f i t C h a ir p e s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I n m y v i e w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : L ik e w h e n I n e g o ti a te w i t h th e m 20 t h e y w e r e a lr e a d y b e n e fi t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : M u l t iC h o i c e ? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Because – yes because of M u s t - C a r r y. CHAIRPERSON: Because of? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : M u s t- C a r r y R e g u la t io n s . Page 15 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: R e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 th e y a r e s i tt i n g t h a t b o u q u e t . M u lt i C h o ic e is n o t p a y in g a c e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o w h e n I n e g o ti a t e w it h t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is th e th r e a t t h a t I s a i d n o I a m g o in g to c o u r t to m a k e s u r e th a t y o u a s M u lt i C h o i c e w e r e m o v e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll p a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: O u r c h a n n e ls in y o u r b o u q u e t b u t it w a s j u s t a t h r e a t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Be c a u s e I k n e w t h a t b y r e g u la t io n s w e c a n d o t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s j u s t ta c t ic C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. S o – s o – s o w i t h – a n d t h e n w i t h y o u h o w m u c h f u n d i n g d i d t h e y p r o v i d e – th e y a g r e e d t o p r o v i d e ? 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n l e t m e s a y r o u g h ly t h o s e t w o c h a n n e ls i t i s R 7 0 0 m i lli o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O v e r w h a t p e r io d ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O v e r fiv e y e a r s . Page 16 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : O v e r fiv e y e a r s ? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . It goes with annual in c r e a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I n fl a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e r y y e a r ja . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Per year Chairperson. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t g o e s w i t h i n fl a ti o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: A n d a l s o C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t I n e g o ti a te d i s S A B C s h a ll n o t p a y f o r tr a n s m i t te r s . S o M u l t iC h o i c e p a y s f o r tr a n s m i t t e r s . E v e n i n A f r i c a a s i t is h a p p e n i n g t o d a y S A B C w e d o n o t p a y. I a ls o n e g o t ia t e d t h a t a l l t h e a d v e r ts t h e y s h a ll g o to S A B C – t h e r e v e n u e fr o m t h a t c h a n n e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: It cannot be taken by M u l ti C h o ic e i t is a S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t t h e y a g r e e d th a t is a l l i n th e a g r e e m e n t? 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: T h a t is a ll in a g r e e m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o – s o … MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: But maybe th e E n g li s h C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I d o n o t w a n t – w h a t d o y o u m e a n t h a t is a ll s o that I am able to… Page 17 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is f i n e . S o p a r t o f w h a t y o u a r e t e ll i n g m e i s w h e n D o c t o r N g u b a n e a n d M s M o k h o b o n e g o t ia t e d w it h M u l t iC h o i c e M u l ti C h o ic e r e fu s e d t o g o b e y o n d R 5 0 m il li o n i n f u n d in g a n d t h a t is h o w n e g o ti a ti o n s c o ll a p s e d b e t w e e n D o c t o r N g u b a n e a n d Ms M o k h o b o o n t h e o n e s i d e a n d M u l t iC h o i c e o n th e o t h e r s i d e . And that when you c a m e i n y o u th e n p e r s u a d e d M u l ti C h o ic e t o a g r e e o n tw o c h a n n e ls a n d t h e m o n e t a r y v a l u e o v e r – o r th e fu n d i n g o v e r f iv e y e a r s f o r th e t w o c h a n n e l s w a s g o i n g t o b e o v e r R 7 0 0 m i ll io n . Is t h a t r ig h t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: M a y b e C h a i r j u s t to a ls o r e m e m b e r y e s t e r d a y I s a id t h e y n e g o ti a t e d R 5 0 m il li o n . I t h i n k t h e y went back. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Fo r a d d it i o n a l R 2 0 m i ll io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: B u t I t h i n k th a t o n e w a s n o t approved. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : By m a y b e M u l t iC h o i c e b o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t i t w a s j u s t n e g o t ia t io n s t h a t they were looking at. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 18 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: A n d Tr e a s u r y t h e y r e f u s e d C h a ir p e r s o n to f u n d t h a t c h a n n e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : To t o p u p ? MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: Ye s t o t o p u p s o t h a t t h e c h a n n e l is m o r e f i n a n c i a l s u s t a i n a b le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: B u t a l s o C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t is s h o c k i n g – y o u k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n I r a i s e m o n e y p e r s o n a ll y fo r e l e c ti o n s f o r S A B C . W h e n g o v e r n m e n t is s u p p o s e d t o f u n d e le c t i o n s C h a ir p e r s o n 10 a n d I t h in k c u r r e n tl y t h e y d i d a s s i s t S A B C b u t I a m t a lk i n g u n d e r c o r r e c t io n C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m n o t s u r e h u n d r e d p e r c e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOT SOEN ENG: But I did hear that it seems as t h e y d id . But d u r i n g my t i m e t h e y c o u l d n o t e v e n n o w I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t e le c ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I a m t h e o n e w h o s a id t o t h e S A B C C H A I R P E R S O N : L ik e 2 0 1 4 f o r 2 0 1 6 t h o s e e l e c ti o n s ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: I am the one who said they s h o u l d – S A B C s h o u ld n o t d e p e n d o n g o v e r n m e n t . W e s h o u ld b e a b l e t o c o m e w i th in n o v a ti o n li k e t h e i n n o v a t io n s t h a t I a m c o m i n g w i t h C h a ir p r s o n . A n d I c a n t e ll y o u C h a i r p e r s o n th e s e t w o c h a n n e ls I w a s a lr e a d y e n g a g in g o th e r p r iv a t e s e c t o r. A lr e a d y I l o g g e d o n e c h a n n e l Page 19 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 b u t w h e n I l e f t S A B C e v e r y t h i n g c o ll a p s e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: T h a t c h a n n e l w a s g o in g t o b e t h e r e s o th a t – b u t i t w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e f u n d e d b y M u l ti C h o ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Okay and then – so just to go back. On the deal that y o u n e g o ti a te d y o u s a y w h a t w a s – w h a t w a s t h e b e n e f i t o r v a l u e t h a t M u l ti C h o ic e w a s g e t t in g o u t o f t h e c o n tr a c t i ts e lf ? 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: M y v i e w C h a i r p e r s o n w il l b e t h o s e th r e e c h a n n e ls t h a t a r e s i tt i n g b e c a u s e o f r e g u l a t i o n s m u s t c a r r y in m y v i e w th e y a r e b e n e f it i n g . In m y v ie w. T h a t i s w h e r e … CHAIRPERSON: Through that ja. MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: T h a t is w h e r e I c a m e w it h t o s a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: B u t p l e a s e w e u n d e r s ta n d t h e r e g u la t io n s b u t b e c a u s e w h e n I w e n t t o t h e m t o f u n d u s th a t – it w a s t h e s tr a t e g y C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d th e n a s I e x p la in e d e a r l ie r – s o f o r m e t h e y w e r e b e n e f it t i n g . I s a i d a s s is t u s to m o v e f o r w a r d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : D u r i n g d ig i ta l m ig r a t io n s o t h a t w e c a n h a v e t h o s e c h a n n e l s i n o u r p l a t fo r m . Page 20 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : And I think Chairperson as a p r i v a t e s e c to r th e y d i d v e r y w e l l t o a s s is t t h e p u b lic . Because in my v ie w t h e y w e r e a s s i s ti n g t h e p u b li c s o t h a t w e a r e r e a d y f o r m ig r a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t o n t h a t p o i n t o f y o u h a v i n g r a is e d fu n d s M r M o ts o e n e n g c o u l d y o u p le a s e h a v e a l o o k a t p a g e 1 6 9 o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e b e c a u s e t h e a m o u n t s a r e l is t e d t h e r e a n d I w o u l d j u s t w a n t u s t o d e a l w it h t h a t a s p e c t . 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I know Advocate it is 387 the fir s t o n e a n d y o u g o d o w n th e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: It is 3 and then… A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e is c o r r e c t . MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG: I k n o w t h o s e , i t is R 6 0 m i ll io n there. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u k n o w t h o s e fi g u r e s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I k n o w, I k n o w. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir p a g e 1 6 9 . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 169. CHAIRPERSON: I think I saw … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a w – I s a w th e m a fe w d a y s a g o . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n s o r r y. Page 21 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG: I s h o u l d k n o w b e c a u s e t h is is w h a t I k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: B e c a u s e th e r e a s o n w h y I a m not reading. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I s b e c a u s e t h e s e is s u e s I k n o w t h e m C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u d e a l t w i th t h e m . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e r e is n o n e e d fo r m e … Ye s I d e a lt w i t h th e m C h a ir p e s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u – t h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o o n t h a t p a g e i t is l is t e d t h e r e t h a t t h e S A B C – I a m s o r r y it is r e c o r d e d t h a t t h e SABC Encore and 24 hours news channel … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is a t – n e x t to 4 .4 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I a m s o r r y. Yo u d i d n o t s a y fr o m w h e r e a b o u t y o u r e a d in g o n t h e p a g e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I a m s o r r y C h a ir fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 . 4 . It d e a ls w i th s u c c e s s f e e f o r r a is i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s j a – it is – j a – y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s s u c c e s s f e e f o r r a i s i n g f u n d s . W e a r e g o i n g to d e a l w i t h t h a t is s u e o f t h e s u c c e s s fe e . A n d t h e n C h a ir i t s a y s Page 22 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 – m a y b e ju s t i f I c o u l d j u s t r e a d q u ic k l y ? B u t m y i n t e r e s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h a t d o c u m e n t is t h i s ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h is is t h e s a m e – s t a t e – C C 3 0 C h a ir. Exhibit CC30. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh you mean the document? C H A I R P E R S O N : Is – ja – i s i t mi n u te s o f a … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is m i n u t e s o f a b o a r d m e e t i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f a b o a r d m e e ti n g . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is m in u t e s o f a b o a r d m e e t in g h e l d o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O f t h e 1 9 t h A u g u s t. CHAIRPERSON: 19 August 2016. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 2016 yes I beg your pardon I should have id e n t i fi e d i t p r o p e r l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B o a r d m e e t i n g o f th e 1 9 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 a n d y o u a t t e n d e d t h a t b o a r d m e e t in g M r M o t s o e n e n g a c c o r d i n g to t h e f ir s t p a g e o f t h e m i n tu t e s . 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 1 9 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 . A n d t h e n a t p a g e 1 6 9 th e r e i s a d i s c u s s io n a b o u t t h e s u c c e s s f e e f o r r a is i n g o f f u n d s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Yo u r e c a ll t h a t ? 4 .4 y o u w e r e th e n r e c u s e d . Page 23 of 169 A n d t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 “ A t t h i s s t a g e M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s r e c u s e d fr o m t h e m e e ti n g . A n d t h e n – t h e n t h e r e is a d i s c u s s io n a b o u t r e g u la t io n s b u t m y i n t e r e s t is i n t h e fi f t h li n e C h a ir where it says: The SABC Encore and 24 Hours News C h a n n e l h a d b e e n f u n d e d fr o m f u n d s r a i s e d b y Mr M o ts o e n e n g a n d i f t h e S A B C r e c o g n is e d t h a t i t h a d t o r a is e m o n e y o u ts id e o f t h e t w o m a i n r e v e n u e s tr e a m s t h e r e o u g h t – th e y h a d o u g h t t o c o n s id e r r e w a r d in g p e o p l e f o r r a i s i n g f u n d s . H e p r o v i d e d t h e 10 f o ll o w i n g a n a l y s i s … ” C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r y o u s h o u ld n o t … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S t a r t fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g ? C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t s t a r t fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g f o r c o n te x t ja . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . O k a y. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. It s a y s : “ A t t h is s t a g e M r M o t s o e n e n g w a s r e c u s e d f r o m t h e m e e ti n g . M r A g u m a in f o r m e d m e m b e r s t h a t t h e S A B C r e li e d o n tw o m a i n s o u r c e s o f f u n d i n g to r u n it s o p e r a t io n s t h e s e b e i n g 1 2 p e r c e n t fr o m T V lic e n c e s a n d 8 5 p e r c e n t fr o m a d v e r t is i n g r e v e n u e 20 a n d t h e r e m a i n i n g th r e e p e r c e n t fr o m G o v e r n m e n t f u n d i n g a n d o th e r r e v e n u e s tr e a m s . O v e r t h e y e a r s t h e c o s t o f p u b lic m a n d a t e a c ti v i ti e s i m p o s e d o n t h e S A B C b y th e I C A S A R e g u l a ti o n s h a d n o t b e e n f u n d e d b y th e f is c a l w h ic h i m p l ie d t h a t t h e S A B C h a d to fi n d o t h e r a l t e r n a t iv e s o f fu n d i n g . T h e S A B C Page 24 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 Encore and 24 hour news channel had been funded fr o m f u n d s r a is e d b y Mr M o ts o e n e n g a n d i f th e S A B C r e c o g n i s e d th a t i t h a d t o r a is e m o n e y o u ts i d e o f t h e t w o m a in r e v e n u e s tr e a m s th e n i t o u g h t to c o n s i d e r r e w a r d i n g p e o p l e f o r r a is i n g fu n d s . He p r o v i d e d t h e f o l lo w in g a n a ly s is o f t h e 1 . 1 9 b il li o n f u n d s t h a t h a d b e e n r a is e d b y Mr M o t s o e n e n g a n d w h ic h w a s o u ts i d e o f h is j o b d e s c r ip t io n . ” Yo u w e r e c o r r e c t . T h e f ir s t fi g u r e is : 10 “ 3 8 6 - 3 8 7 m il li o n f o r t h e 2 4 h o u r s n e w s c h a n n e l , 3 5 9 m i ll io n f o r th e S A B C E n c o r e , 6 0 m i ll i o n f o r t h e A F C O N G a m e s , 2 1 0 m i ll io n f o r t h e v o l u m e d e a ls o n t h e s a le o f S A B C p r o g r a m s t o A f r i c a , 1 5 m il li o n fo r t h e 2 0 1 6 L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t e l e c t io n s , fi v e m il li o n f o r t h e c o n tr i b u ti o n s t h e g r a tu i to u s p a y m e n t to th e M u s ic Legends, n e g o ti a te d in 100 the f ir s t mi ll i o n e x tr a q u a r te r, 30 revenue m ill i o n for s u b s c r i p ti o n , v i d e o d e m a n d d e a l w i th M u l ti C h o ic e a n d £ 2 m il li o n - I a m s o s o r r y - $ 2 m il li o n fo r 20 n e g o ti a ti n g s a v in g s on AFCON S p o r ts R ig h ts . M r A g u m a m e n ti o n e d t h a t a l t h o u g h M r M o ts o e n e n g h a d r a is e d a ll t h e a b o v e m e n t io n e d f u n d s t h e c o r p o r a t io n performance. did had not r e c o g n is e d him for such H e c a u ti o n e d t h a t i f t h e c o r p o r a ti o n n o t i n c o r p o r a te the p r in c i p l e Page 25 of 169 of paying a 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 success fee to the COO and employees who went b e y o n d t h e c a ll o f d u ty t o r a i s e f u n d s f o r t h e c o r p o r a t e c h a ll e n g e li k e S A B C E n c o r e a n d th e 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e ls w o u l d c l o s e d o w n . ” W h a t - s o r r y C h a ir a n d t h e n m a y b e o f r e l e v a n c e to t h e c o n tr a c t i ts e l f b e c a u s e th e r e i s m e n t io n o f w h a t th e p r e v i o u s … CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe before you proceed. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u j u s t w a n t … 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To - t o g e t … C H A I R P E R S O N : H i m t o c o n f ir m t h a t h e … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e s e fi g u r e s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e f i g u r e s c o r r e c t ly r e p r e s e n t f u n d s t h a t h e r a i s e d … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e r a is e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e S A B C . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Ye s M r M o t s o e n e n g . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I a m n o t a fi n a n c i a l - t h e C F O . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I w i ll - I b e l ie v e w h a t t h e C F O is s a y i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s w r i tt e n ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Is correct … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 26 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B u t w h a t I n e e d t o t e ll y o u C h a ir p e r s o n i s i t is n o t j u s t r a is in g fu n d s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : R a is i n g f u n d s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I s o n ly t h o s e t w o . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I a m j u s t d e a li n g w i th t h e document there. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: It is o n ly th o s e two ( in t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: The tangent. Ja. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Other funds … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I s n e g o ti a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: W here you find that SABC they w e r e s u p p o s e d to p a y c e r t a i n a m o u n t li k e A F C O N . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I s a v e d S A B C 3 2 m i ll io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h r o u g h n e g o t ia t io n ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Through negotiations … Page 27 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: A n d w h e r e I s a v e d m o n e y fo r SABC Chairperson … CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: The saving … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is m y j o b . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 That is part of my jo b d e s c r ip t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ( I n te r v e n e s ) . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: The only part … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Is raising funds … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : L ik e y o u r e l e c t io n s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : L ik e y o u r E n c o r e a n d - a n d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: And when they were saying they pay me … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: That percent … CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. Page 28 of 169 amount which is 2.5 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w r o te a l e t te r … . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : To t h e G C E O a n d t h e C F O . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I alert them make them aware t h a t th is p a r t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u c a n n o t p a y m e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Because it is my jo b d e s c r ip t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I mean as a manager you must n e g o ti a te in t h e in t e r e s t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: O f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . If I h a v e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 20 Achieved that you cannot reward me for that. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b e c a u s e y o u g e t a s a l a r y. Yo u g e t p a i d f o r d o in g your job. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: But if I come with a brown bag Page 29 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W i t h 7 0 0 m i ll i o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I c a n a c c e p t t h a t y o u r e c o g n is e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : My w o r k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o t h e s e - t h e s e f u n d s t h a t y o u r a is e d t h e y c a m e i n a b r o w n b a g . I s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s u g g e s t in g ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir n o j u s t - j u s t a t e a s e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u a n d w e r e y o u r a is in g t h e s e - h o w - fr o m - w h e r e d i d y o u s o u r c e t h e s e t h is f u n d i n g ? 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: L e t m e d e a l w i t h s p o r ts r ig h ts C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Yo u k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n lik e I w a s s a y in g t o y o u w h e n y o u lo o k t h e b o a r d a t t h e S A B C a n d m a n a g e m e n t t h e y d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d b u s i n e s s o f th e S A B C . Page 30 of 169 I t is n o t 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 a b o u t a lw a y s m o n e y. I t is t h e h o w y o u n e g o t ia t e w i t h p e o p le . E x a m p l e C h a ir p e r s o n P S L g a v e u s t h e r i g h ts f o r fr e e f o r r a d i o a n d r e a s o n b e i n g C h a ir p e r s o n e v e n t h a t o n e - I th i n k D r N g u b a n e d id a ll u d e t o th is is s u e when he was here. I a m th e o n e w h o w e n t a n d s a v e d S A B C m o n e y b u t w e a r e n o t d e a li n g w it h t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A m o u n t th e r e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Because previously what was h a p p e n in g in t h e P S L e a c h a n d e v e r y t e a m - O r l a n d o P ir a te s w il l b e s a y in g n o o u r v a lu e r ig h ts . I a m ju s t g iv i n g a n e x a m p l e C h a ir p e r s o n . I t is 2 0 0 m i ll i o n . K a i z e r C h i e fs w i ll b e s a y in g n o w e h a v e m o r e s u p p o r t e r s t h a n O r la n d o P ir a te s . S o o u r s is 5 0 0 m il li o n . It w i ll g o according to … C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e ir - th e v a l u e t h a t t h e y a t t a c h t o th e m s e lv e s ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 20 A n d i t w a s r is k y f o r S A B C b e c a u s e 1 6 t e a ms h o w a r e y o u g o in g t o - t o d e a l w i t h s u c h i s s u e s . I h a d t o g o a n d p l e a d w i t h P S L t o s a y w e d o n o t h a v e m o n e y. C a n y o u m e e t u s h a l f w a y s o th a t a t l e a s t t h e s e te a m s y o u a s P S L y o u m a n a g e t h e s e n e g o ti a ti o n s . I w e n t a n d n e g o t ia t e d w it h th e m a n d C h a i r p e r s o n r e a l ly I w a n t to a p p r e c i a t e U b u n tu a n d u n d e r s t a n d in g th e w o r k o f p u b l ic broadcaster because PSL did assist us. Page 31 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 S o w h e n w e n e g o ti a te c u r r e n tl y y o u n e g o ti a te w it h P S L n o t in d i v i d u a ls o w n e r s o f t h e … CHAIRPERSON: Of the clubs? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O f th e c lu b s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I k n o w S A B C is s a y i n g n o a c t u a l ly th a t is n o t t h e r i g h t w a y t o d o i t . I c a n c o n f ir m C h a i r p e r s o n it is t h e r ig h t w a y t o d o i t b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t understand business. They do not - they do not even understand what in f o r m s th a t d e c is io n C h a ir p e r s o n a n d C h a ir p e r s o n i f w e w a n t t o g e t S A B C c o r r e c t th e r e m u s t b e in d u c ti o n . 10 W h e n y o u c o m e y o u m u s t f ir s t g o th r o u g h in d u c t io n . Even p e o p l e t h a t y o u d o n o t lik e y o u m u s t c a ll t h e m . Te l l u s h o w y o u h a v e b e e n d o i n g th e w o r k . S o - b u t i f y o u d o n o t h a v e i n d u c t io n y o u in d u c t y o u r s e l f . Yo u t h i n k y o u k n o w w h e n y o u d o n o t k n o w. T h a t is w h e r e t h e p r o b le m i s C h a i r p e r s o n a n d I a m t a lk in g i n th e i n t e r e s t C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e p u b lic b r o a d c a s t e r. I d o n o t w a n t t o g o b a c k b u t I c a n e v e n a s s is t t h e m f o r f r e e . I f I a s s is t th e m I c a n t e l l y o u C h a i r p e r s o n th e y c a n h a v e a n o th e r t w o channels there. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Ye s . M r M o ts o e n e n g I k n o w th a t t h is is s u e o f y o u r s u c c e s s fe e i t is a f a c t th a t y o u r e c e iv e d a b o u t 1 0 o v e r ju s t o v e r 1 0 m il li o n . A m I c o r r e c t? As a s u c c e s s f e e fo r h a v i n g r a i s e d t h e s e f u n d s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I t h i n k th e y s t il l o w e m e m o r e Page 32 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t h a n th a t a m o u n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And … MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: A lt h o u g h C h a ir p e r s o n I s h a ll say we are in court … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . ( In t e r v e n e s ) . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W i t h t h e s e m a tt e r s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is w h a t I w a n t e d t o r a is e t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is a s u b j e c t o f li ti g a ti o n . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But maybe I should not deal into - I am ju s t c u r i o u s t o k n o w. I - I m e a n i f s o m e b o d y w e r e to s a y to m e I m u s t r a i s e a m i ll i o n R a n d I w o u l d k n o w h o w t o b e g in b u t to b e a b l e t o r a is e 20 3 8 7 m i ll io n y o u k n o w i t i s - i t i s o f i n t e r e s t t o m e a s t o w h e th e r y o u r a i s e d i t fr o m t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i th t h e S A B C o r ju s t b r o a d l y a r o u n d t h e w o r ld . Yo u k n o w h o w d id y o u r a i s e t h o s e funds? C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e y o u … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: May - yes. Page 33 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a n s w e r M r M o t s o e n e n g I j u s t w a n t t o s a y y o u h a v e m a d e t h e p o i n t a n u m b e r o f t i m e s t h a t y o u d i d v e r y w e l l fo r t h e S A B C w h il e y o u w e r e th e r e a n d w e a ll k n o w th a t t h e r e h a s b e e n c r i ti c is m o f y o u o r s o m e o f y o u r d e c is io n s o v e r - o v e r t i m e . T h a t i s a l l in th e p u b li c d o m a i n b u t I a m q u i t e in t e r e s t e d a n d a m q u i te o p e n t o r e a l ly u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e y o u d i d w e ll a n d w h e r e y o u d i d n o t d o w e l l b e c a u s e i t i s i m p o r t a n t t h a t th e p u b li c h a s a b a la n c e d v ie w o f a n y in d i v i d u a l . Yo u m a y h a v e d o n e s o m e w r o n g t h i n g s . I h a v e n o t m a d e a n y 10 fi n d i n g s . I w i ll m a k e f i n d in g s l a te r. Yo u m a y h a v e d o n e s o m e g o o d t h i n g s b u t i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t o n e s h o u l d g e t a c o m p l e te p i c t u r e a n d a s I h a v e s a i d h e r e b e f o r e I a m n o t g o i n g t o m a k e f i n d in g s w h e t h e r i t i s y o u o r a n y p e r s o n w h o is i m p l ic a te d . I a m n o t g o in g to m a k e f i n d in g s b a s e d o n w h a t t h e m e d i a s a y s a b o u t th o s e p e o p l e . I a m g o i n g to m a k e fi n d i n g s b a s e d o n t h e e v id e n c e I h e a r. I d o n o t - t h e m e d i a c a n s a y w h a te v e r th e y w a n t t o s a y a b o u t p e o p l e . I w i ll l o o k a t t h e f a c ts a n d t h e e v i d e n c e b e fo r e m e a n d I b e li e v e t h a t w h e r e t h e r e i s j u s t if ic a ti o n to g iv e c r e d it p e o p le s h o u l d b e g i v e n c r e d i t. W h e r e t h e r e is j u s t i fic a ti o n t o s a y t h e y w e r e w r o n g . W e m u s t s a y th e y 20 w e r e w r o n g b u t i t is i m p o r t a n t to g e t a c o m p le t e p ic t u r e . So I just t h o u g h t I m u s t j u s t m a k e t h a t q u i te c l e a r. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r p e r s o n I a m n o t a n a n g e l . I a m a h u m a n b e i n g a n d I a m n o t s a y i n g e v e r y t h in g t h a t I d id e v e r y th i n g - e v e r y t h i n g - I d i d e v e r y t h i n g r ig h t . I a m - I d o n o t w a n t t o i m p l y th a t . I a m a h u m a n b e in g . In a n y c a s e C h a ir p e r s o n a Page 34 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 p e r s o n w h o w o r k s v e r y h a r d t h e r e w ill b e m is t a k e s a l o n g t h e w a y. I t is - i t is n o r m a l . T h e q u e s ti o n w il l b e w h e th e r t h o s e m is ta k e s t h a t y o u d i d y o u d i d i t b e c a u s e r e a lly y o u w e r e l o o k i n g t o c o m m i t s u c h a n e r r o r C h a ir p e r s o n . I a m n o t a n a n g e l C h a ir p e r s o n b u t C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t s a y r e a ll y I h a v e a c h ie v e d e v e r y t h in g a t t h e S A B C . Example C h a ir p e r s o n i n m y a ff i d a v i t I s a i d I h a v e p a i n w h e n i t c o m e s t o p e o p l e w i t h d i s a b il it y b e c a u s e w h e n I c a m e a t t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e w e r e ju s t I t h i n k a n d I t h i n k i t is n o t ju s t S A B C . 10 Yo u k n o w w h e n w e e m p lo y p e o p le w i t h d is a b il i ty w e j u s t e m p l o y f o r m a k in g s u r e t h a t e q u it y b e c a u s e o f th e l a w s a n d s o o n y o u y o u c o v e r s u c h m a t t e r s b e c a u s e i t is tw o p e r c e n t w h ic h I th in k a l s o i t i s f a r lo w C h a ir p e r s o n . I t h in k w e a c h i e v e t h a t a t t h e S A B C b u t I c a n n o t s a y i t i s a n a c h ie v e m e n t . I t is a f a i lu r e a n d i n th a t p o i n t C h a i r p e r s o n I t h i n k I f a il . W h e n i t c o m e s t o p r o v i n c e s C h a ir p e r s o n I d id n o t a c h ie v e a lo t b e c a u s e w h a t I w a s l o o k i n g t o a c h i e v e i s t o s e e w h e r e w e p r o d u c e a c t o r s fr o m t h o s e p r o v i n c e s . A fr ic a n la n g u a g e s . 20 a c h i e v e t h a t. We also make sure that we cater for I f a il e d C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e w e - I c o u l d n o t I tr i e d a l s o t o a c h i e v e t h a t in th a t 4 0 4 C h a n n e l C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e i f y o u r e m e m b e r w e l l w h e n i t s ta r t e d a l l - n o t a ll A fr ic a n la n g u a g e s b u t A f r i c a n l a n g u a g e s t h e y w e r e t h e r e b u t w e c o u l d n o t d o w e l l b e c a u s e t h a t c h a n n e l is i n A f r ic a i s a n d t h e r e w e r e c o n c e r n s b u t w e c a n n o t h e a r. S o w e d e c i d e d n o b e c a u s e n o w w e - w e a r e i n A f r ic a a ls o . Page 35 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 L e t u s u s e th a t c h a n n e l t h e la n g u a g e t h a t w il l b e u n d e r s ta n d a b l e to a l l p e o p l e w h o a r e w a t c h in g th a t c h a n n e l C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e r e - t h e r e a r e m a n y t h i n g s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I - I th i n k I w a s s u p p o s e d t o d o b e t t e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B u t I c o u l d n o t d o b e t t e r C h a ir person. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k Ms N o r m a n h a d … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n h o w … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: As to how … C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w a n d w h e r e y o u r a is e d t h e - t h e v a r i o u s a m o u n ts a n d th e n I i n t e r r u p te d w h il e s h e w a s … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W a it i n g f o r a n a n s w e r. Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n I t h in k I h a v e a lr e a d y a l l u d e d t o t h e M u l t iC h o i c e th a t w e a r e a l l a w a r e o f b e c a u s e s o m e o f th e n e g o ti a ti o n s C h a ir p e r s o n y o u k n o w t h e f a c t - t h e p a r t ie s t h e y d o n o t w a n t t o r e v e a l th e ir r e l a t i o n s h i p w i th p u b lic ( i n d is ti n c t ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I can submit to you Chairperson Page 36 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t o s a y t h is is w h a t I d i d i n m y a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e o f y o u k n o w t h o s e n e g o ti a ti o n s . Th e y a r e v e r y s e n s i t iv e C h a i r p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B e c a u s e i t a ff e c ts e v e n p e o p le w h o a r e w o r k i n g t h e r e . Yo u k n o w t h o s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: But you … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B u t n o t p u b lic a l ly C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Because I even signed c o n fi d e n ti a li ty … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: O r a g r e e w i th c o n fi d e n t ia li t y t h a t th e m a t t e r s w i ll s t a y b e t w e e n u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n fi d e n t ia l , y e s . 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t i n y o u C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I do not have a problem … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 37 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: But maybe to a s s is t th e C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : L ik e I s a id i t is n o t l ik e l o o k in g f o r m o n e y r a is in g fu n d s . I t is t h e n e g o ti a ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n . E v e n in t h e provinces I was negotiating i n c lu d i n g Government C h a ir p e r s o n . E x a m p l e t h e 6 0 m il li o n th a t is t h e r e fo r A F C O N G o v e r n m e n t p a i d f o r AFCON. C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr e v io u s ly ? 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Fo r t h e f ir s t t i m e I a p p r o a c h e d t h e M i n is t e r o f S p o r ts a t t h a t ti m e Fi k i le M b a l u la a n d h is D G . I r a is e d t h e is s u e th a t w e d o n o t h a v e m o n e y t o c a t e r fo r A F C O N a n d r e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s e m e r g e n c y. A F C O N w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e s t a g e d i n a n o t h e r c o u n tr y b u t b e c a u s e o f s o m e is s u e s it w a s a n e m e r g e n c y. S o I w e n t to … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. W h ic h y e a r w a s th a t a g a i n ? I remember there w a s t h a t - th e r e w a s a y e a r w h e n t h a t s i t u a t io n w a s - a r o s e . 20 Do you r e m e m b e r w h ic h y e a r i t w a s ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t n o t r e m e m b e r b u t I d o r e m e m b e r w h e n … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I d o n o t k n o w if i t w a s L i b y a o r s o m e o t h e r c o u n tr y t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o s ta g e A F C O N a n d t h e n th e r e w h e r e c h a ll e n g e s Page 38 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 a n d th e n S o u t h A fr ic a w a s a s k e d . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Hey I was not - I was not aware t h a t y o u fo ll o w s p o r t s C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u a r e c o r r e c t . Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh, hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o C h a ir p e r s o n i t is - i t is li k e I w a s s a y i n g s o m e ti m e s C h a i r p e r s o n i t i s s k i ll s o f n e g o t i a t i o n s . 10 k n o w h o w y o u n e g o t ia t e . Yo u I h a v e o t h e r w i tn e s s e s b u t I h a v e o t h e r s tr o n g p o in t s b e c a u s e I c a n n o t h a v e e v e r y t h i n g b u t I k n o w I h a v e m a n y w i t n e s s e s C h a ir p e r s o n a s a - a s a h u m a n b e i n g w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e s e is s u e s b u t a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n th e t e a m t h a t I w o r k w i th a t t h e S A B C t h e y were very good. C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a s t r o n g t e a m ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: It was a strong team C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d u n d e r s ta n d i n g … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: The business of the SABC C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: A n d I c a n t e ll y o u C h a i r p e r s o n d u r i n g A n t o n H e u n is … Page 39 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e f i n a n c ia ls o f t h e S A B C … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e y d i d v e r y w e ll . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I am not ta lk in g about f u n d r a i s i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: 10 I a m j u s t s a y in g w i th i n t h e SABC … CHAIRPERSON: The management of the funds? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A d v e r t is e r s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: H e w a s i n c h a r g e fo r s a l e s d iv is io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: they g e n e r a te C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 revenue for SABC. T h e ir r o l e is t o m a k e s u r e t h a t A n to n was doing very well W h e n h e - w h e n h e r e t ir e d e a r ly - h e to o k e a r ly r e tir e m e n t b e c a u s e o f h e a l t h is s u e s . T h a t is w h e r e a ls o a ff e c t e d t h e SABC and I could not leave Anton to move away Chairperson because s o m e o n e w h o i s d e a l in g w it h s t r a t e g ic p o s it io n e s p e c ia lly t h e fi n a n c i a l s o f th e S A B C w h a t I d id t o h i m I a s k e d h i m A n t o n c a n y o u s t a y f o r t w o years. W e a p p o in t a - a w o m a n . P l e a s e h a n d o v e r a n d g o w i th t h e Page 40 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 w o m a n e v e r y w h e r e t o a d v e r t is e r s - i n tr o d u c e h e r. S o t h a t a t l e a s t s h e is w e ll k n o w n i n t h a t i n d u s t r y. A l th o u g h s h e w a s s ti ll w it h in h is t e a m i n t h a t u n i t C h a ir p e r s o n . S o t h e r e a r e s o m e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n li k e w h e n D r N g u b a n e w a s s a y i n g t h e r e a r e t h o s e p e o p l e th a t y o u c a n n o t j u s t a l lo w th e m t o l e a v e t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . A n t o n w a s o n e o f th e m C h a ir p e r s o n a n d i t i s a p i ty th a t w h e n I l e f t h e l e ft . I t h in k th a t i s w h y y o u h a v e a l l th is f in a n c ia l p r o b le m s a t t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 W h o w e r e t h e o th e r m e m b e r s o f y o u r te a m t h a t y o u s a y w e r e v e r y s tr o n g a n d h e lp e d y o u a c h i e v e w h a t y o u - y o u a c h i e v e d ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Chairperson it was A n t o n H e u n is . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s L e s li e N t l o k o . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s Ve r o n a ( ? ) C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s S u l ly. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s Si z w e N z i m a n d e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: N o w h e i s w o r k in g w i th a b u s i n e s s m a n th a t i s w e l l k n o w n Mr P a tr ic e M o ts e p e . H e le f t S A B C . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Those Page 41 of 169 were - I am just 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 m e n ti o n i n g a fe w C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m j u s t m e n t io n in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w e r e - t h e r e w e r e o th e r s ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: T h e y w e r e - th e y w e r e a v e r y s tr o n g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Te a m including And C h a ir p e r s o n Bessie (?). T h e r e - t h e r e w e r e m a n y C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: including J i m i M a tt h e w s C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Th e y w e r e - t h e y w e r e - i t w a s a team … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t I t a lk t o th e m . W e d is c u s s s tr a t e g y w it h t h e m C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: The d i ff e r e n c e s C h a ir p e r s o n … Page 42 of 169 o n ly way we have 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: B e c a u s e d i ff e r e n c e s w i ll b e there … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: W h e n y o u h a v e h u m a n b e in g s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: And it is good fo r the o r g a n i s a t io n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W e h a v e o u r d i ffe r e n c e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t I c o u ld n o t t a k e n o k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is w h a t I c o u ld n o t t a k e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: When they were saying they c o u l d n o t d o t h is . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I w o u ld s a y y o u c a n n o t b e a manager … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d y o u - y o u a r e s a y in g t o m e y o u c a n n o t d o t h is … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 43 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d I g i v e t i m e l in e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: By th is ti m e I want t h is C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o w h e n y o u - w h e n t h e r e w a s s o m e th i n g t o b e done and you wanted them to do something and they said no it could n o t b e d o n e t h a t is w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a n d y o u w o u ld s a y n o 10 y o u c a n d o i t. Yo u m u s t g o a n d d o i t . T h a t is w h a t y o u m e a n t ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: in f o r m e d b y C h a ir p e r s o n . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d th a t is In t h e S A B C a t t h a t l e v e l I w a s t h e o n l y person who has grown within the ranks of the SABC. So when I talk t h e y k n o w I k n o w w h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t b e c a u s e I w e n t t h r o u g h - I - I know the SABC. O n e o f t h e e x a m p l e s C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k is th e r e i n m y a ff id a v i t is t h e n e w s tu d i o th a t w e p u t - th e S A B C p u t th r e e y e a r s to p u t a d ig i t a l s t u d i o . T h e y s a i d w e a r e g o in g t o h a v e - w e a r e g o i n g t o ta k e t h r e e y e a r s C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 I a m n o t a s p e c i a lis t i n th a t a r e a b u t I w a s w o n d e r i n g w h y e v e r y t i m e S A B C w e t a k e t h r e e y e a r s . E v e r y th i n g t h a t w e d o is - is t h r e e y e a r s . I do not understand and remember C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e fi v e y e a r s c o n tr a c t w h ic h m e a n s i f y o u h a v e - y o u h a v e a s tr a te g y o r a p la n I a m n o t g o in g to d e liv e r. Yo u s e e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d s o m e o n e w h o is g o i n g to c o m e a ls o is going t o s t a r t fr o m s c r a t c h a n o th e r Page 44 of 169 three years. Yo u see 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C h a ir p e r s o n . I s a i d t o t h e m lo o k c o l le a g u e s c a n w e g o a n d v is i t o th e r b r o a d c a s t e r s . W e v is i t o t h e r b r o a d c a s te r s C h a ir p e r s o n . I l e d t h a t t e a m C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e n I a s k e d th is p e r s o n y o u k n o w I a m n o t a technology person. I n e e d a s s is t a n c e . W h y y o u - M u l ti C h o ic e e x a m p l e - y o u h a v e t h e s e m o v i n g s t u d i o s . C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k y o u a ls o w a t c h s p o r t s . Yo u w i ll s e e t h e y a r e a b l e t o h a v e a s tu d i o li k e t h i s t a b l e . I t is a s e t. Yo u c a n p a c k it a n d th e n y o u m o v e w i t h it b e c a u s e I s a w i t - I t h i n k O r l a n d o S t a d i u m f ir s t ti m e - I s a i d b u t w h y M u l ti C h o ic e is a b l e to d o 10 t h is a n d w e a r e n o t a b le t o d o th is . I w e n t t o t h e m a n d o th e r s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a s k e d . Th e y s a i d n o b u t y o u c a n t a k e t h r e e m o n t h s . T h a t is w h y C h a ir p e r s o n I w e n t t o t h e G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e . I s a i d le t u s c h a n g e o u r c o r p o r a te p l a n . L e t u s p u t o u r s e l v e s u n d e r p r e s s u r e . L e t u s d e li v e r t h is w i t h i n a y e a r b u t w e d e l iv e r a s t u d i o … C H A I R P E R S O N : In s t e a d o f th r e e y e a r s ? H m . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: W i th in three months and C h a ir p e r s o n w e s a v e 11 m i ll io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: A n d t h a t s t u d i o i t is a m u l ti- s t u d i o s e t C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u r s u i t t h a t y o u a r e w e a r i n g C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u w e r e l o o k i n g a t t h e S A B C - t h o s e a n a lo g u e s t u d i o s - t h is s u i t th a t y o u a r e w e a r in g i t c a n b e r e a d . T h a t is a n a l o g u e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: In the … Page 45 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e e y e s o f t h e v i e w e r ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t d ig i ta l i t w il l b e c a u s e i t h a s t h o s e s e t u p s t h a t i t a d j u s ts to t h e c o lo u r. If I c o m e w i t h a r e d s u it a n d t h e n th e te c h n ic i a n s th e y a r e a b le t o a d j u s t a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t y o u w e a r C h a ir p e r s o n . I k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n , p e o p l e s a i d w e d i d n o t f o l l o w t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s C h a ir p e r s o n . C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e a r e is s u e s th a t y o u m u s t te s t in t h e i n t e r e s t o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d t h e p u b li c . I w ill a r g u e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t w h e n w e p u t t h a t p r o je c t w e 10 were t e s t in g whether we can compete with other broadcasters C h a ir p e r s o n w h ic h w e w e r e a b le to a c h i e v e C h a ir p e r s o n . S o - b u t w e f o ll o w e d a p r o c e s s C h a ir p e r s o n w e f o ll o w e d d e v ia t io n a n d t h e r e w a s ti m e w h e r e t h e h e a d o f s p o r ts s a id w e n e e d a s t u d io f o r r u g b y. R u g b y is h e r e . W e a r e l e f t w i th f o u r m o n t h s . W h a t d o y o u d o C h a ir p e r s o n ? Yo u a r e l e f t w i t h f o u r m o n t h s . Yo u r o w n te a m i s t e ll i n g y o u t h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g t o t a k e t h r e e y e a r s a n d w h a t i n fo r m e d t h e s e th r e e y e a r s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h r e e y e a r s C h a ir p e r s o n i t m e a n s th a t e v e r y y e a r a c c o r d i n g t o i n fl a ti o n o r a c c o r d i n g 20 t o c u r r e n c y a n d r e m e m b e r a l l t h e s e te c h n i c a l s tu ff t h a t w e n e e d w e b u y fr o m a b r o a d . Yo u p a y b y E u r o / D o ll a r s . I f y o u w e r e b u d g e ti n g 1 0 0 m i lli o n y o u c a n p a y 2 5 0 m il li o n o r 3 0 0 m i ll io n C h a ir p e r s o n . s h o u l d c h e c k th e r a ti o n a l . I t h in k p e o p le Ev e n i f t h e y c r i ti c is e b u t w h a t w a s t h e r a ti o n a l f o r th e s e p e o p l e t o d o t h i s C h a ir p e r s o n . A c c o r d i n g t o m e w e Page 46 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 have a good point to say there was rugby and if we take three years w h a t w a s g o i n g t o h a p p e n C h a ir p e r s o n . S o I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n s o m e o f t h e is s u e s e s p e c i a l ly in b r o a d c a s t in g y o u m u s t b e f l e x i b l e C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t is w h y I w a s s a y in g C h a ir p e r s o n o u r p o l ic y s h a l l a li g n w i t h t h e b u s in e s s b e c a u s e t h is ir r e g u la r e x p e n d it u r e a n d s o o n i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t p e o p l e h a v e c h o w m o n e y b e c a u s e e v e n w h e n m e d i a r e p o r t w h e n w e t a lk a b o u t ir r e g u l a r. Ir r e g u la r m e a n s t h a t y o u b r o a d c a s t B a fa n a B a f a n a w i th o u t a 10 c o n tr a c t C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I w i ll t e l l y o u B a f a n a B a f a n a r e c e n t ly t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o p l a y w i t h Z a m b ia . Z a m b i a c a n c e ll e d B a f a n a B a f a n a a n d th e n S A FA r u s h e d to M a u r i t iu s . If M a u r it i u s d id a g r e e t h e s a m e d a y to s a y w e a r e g o i n g - w e a r e c o m i n g . Yo u d o n o t h a v e ti m e t o s i g n t h a t c o n t r a c t a n d f o l lo w t h is p r o c e s s . T h e m a tc h is in th e e v e n in g . S o th a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n , p e o p l e n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e b u s i n e s s . T h a t i s w h y w e c a m e w it h t h e is s u e w h e n w e r e a lis e d th a t w e h a v e s e r io u s is s u e s o n g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s . SABC. 20 L e t u s a li g n o u r p o l ic y w i t h t h e b u s in e s s o f th e I f t h e r e g u l a ti o n s fr o m Tr e a s u r y - l e t u s a s k e x e m p t io n . Ye s C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Yo u h a v e t o u c h e d o n q u i t e a n u m b e r o f Page 47 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 m a t t e r s t h a t y o u d e a l w it h i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t in a n s w e r in g t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u t o u c h e d o n t h e v is i o n v ie w s t u d io s a n d y o u to u c h e d o n th e is s u e o f ir r e g u la r a n d w a s t e f u l e x p e n d it u r e . S o - a n d - is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h e s e a r e m a t te r s a l s o t h a t t h e - b e c a u s e I b e l ie v e th a t S I U h a s w r i t t e n a l e t te r t o y o u d e a l in g w it h t h o s e m a t t e r s . A m I c o r r e c t ? A t le a s t th e i r r e g u l a r a n d w a s te f u l e x p e n d i t u r e . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n t o b e h o n e s t I d o n o t e v e n u n d e r s t a n d th a t le t t e r o f S I U . Yo u s e e m e d ia C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u g o a n d th e n y o u a r e p o r tr a y e d t h a t y o u a r e d o i n g th e w o r k . 10 Yo u a r e s o e x c i t e d . Yo u g o t o s tr e e t . P e o p le a r e g r e e ti n g y o u . Yo u m a k e a m is t a k e b e c a u s e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e l e t t e r t h a t th e y a r e a s k in g m e y o u ’l l k n o w v e r y w e ll C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y a r e a s k i n g b e a b o u t t h e u n i o n a n d th e n e g o ti a ti o n s b e t w e e n t h e S A B C a n d t h e u n i o n s t o s a y I s h a ll a n s w e r, w h y th e s e p e o p l e t h e y w e r e g iv e n a n n u a l i n c r e m e n t a s o b e r p e r s o n w o u ld n e v e r a s k s u c h a q u e s t io n b e c a u s e y o u k n o w t h a t e v e r y y e a r t h e u n i o n s t h e y n e g o t ia t e f o r t h e w o r k e r s a n n u a l s a l a r y in c r e m e n t a n d i n t h a t s c e n a r i o C h a ir p e r s o n , w h y th e y a s k i n g t h i s is b e c a u s e o n e u n i o n s i g n e d f ir s t , a g r e e w it h t h e S A B C , o n e u n i o n s a id n o , w e ’r e n o t g o in g t o b e p a r t. S o y o u s i g n w i t h t h e u n io n t h a t a g r e e 20 w i t h y o u a n d t h a t u n io n , y o u k n o w t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n , b e c a u s e t h e y r e p r e s e n t th e ir o w n w o r k e r s . N o r m a l ly y o u d o n ’ t p a y t h o s e w o r k e r s b e c a u s e y o u a r e s t il l i n n e g o ti a ti o n s w i t h a n o t h e r u n i o n C h a ir p e r s o n a n d i n t h e n e g o ti a ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e r e s o l u ti o n i s t h e n e v e r y t h i n g t h e y p r o c e s s . I n t h e n e g o ti a ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n , n o r m a lly I t e l l p e o p l e , c a n p e o p l e g o o n s tr ik e Page 48 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 f o r i s s u e s t h a t y o u c a n r e a lly r e s o lv e d w h a t is h a r m , i f t h e y w a n t 7 % y o u g iv e th e m i n f l a t i o n a n d t h e n t h e y a r e f ig h ti n g t o s a y, n o , n o , n o w e w a n t 9 % , y o u k n o w u n i o n w i ll d r a g y o u , w il l d r a g y o u . T h e s tr a t e g y o f S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n i n m y v i e w, w h ic h I l e d C h a ir p e r s o n t o u n i t e S A B C , t h e y a r e a s k i n g b e c a u s e t h e r e is w h a t w e c a l l a s w e e t e n e r, s w e e t e n e r C h a i r p e r s o n a n d th e n w e c h e c k i f w e g i v e t h e s e p e o p l e a 9 % a n d w e g i v e t h e m o n c e o f s w e e t e n e r, w h i c h o n e i s r is k y f o r S A B C , t h e 9 % i s r is k y a s w e e te n e r is o n c e - o ff , m a y b e h a l f o f your 10 s a la r y or maybe R2 000 Chairperson th a t is how we n e g o ti a te … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u l o o k a t a l o n g te r m t o s a y, d o w e g a i n b y d o i n g it t h is w a y, d o w e g a i n m o r e o r d o w e l o o s e m o r e i n d o in g it a n o t h e r w a y. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . Ye s . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d I c a n a ls o a t te s t i t to y o u r C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u k n o w w h e n I w a s a t t h e S A B C t h e u n i o n t h e y w o u l d n e v e r d e f e a t m e in th e S A B C b e c a u s e i n t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s I w i ll te ll them, l e t ’s d o lik e th is , l e t ’s g o t o t h e w o r k e r s , p u t y o u r i s s u e s w i t h t h e w o r k e r s , I ’ m g o i n g t o p u s h t h e S A B C is s u e s a n d w h e n I g o t h e r e 20 a n d n e g o ti a t e w i t h th e m , I w il l t e l l th e w o r k e r s , t h e w o r k e r s I k n o w y o u w a n t 9 % b u t h e r e is t h e r i s k l o o m in g , y o u m a y b e r e tr e n c h e d fo r m o v in g f o r w a r d b u t i f y o u a c c e p t t h is , y o u ’ ll w o r k f o r e v e r a t t h e S A B C , l e t u s lo o k a t r e a li ty a n d I w il l g o w i t h th e u n i o n t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u k n o w w h a t , t h e y w il l t a lk b u t w h e n I ta k e t h e s t a n d a n d p u t m y is s u e s th e w o r k e r s w i ll g o w i t h m e . T h e y e v e n a s k e m e , H la u d i n o t h is is s u e o f Page 49 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 y o u a d d r e s s i n g w o r k e r s , n o w e ’r e n o t g o i n g t o g o w i t h y o u . I’ m j u s t d e m o n s t r a t in g C h a ir p e r s o n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I s t h i s n o w t h e u n io n l e a d e r s ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e u n i o n l e a d e r s C h a ir p e r s o n , a n d I w o r k v e r y w e l l w i t h th e u n i o n l e a d e r s C h a ir p e r s o n , t h a t is w h y e v e n w h e n S A B C t h e y w e r e d i s mi s s in g m e , i n c l u d in g th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r, C W r e l e a s e d a s t a t e m e n t t o s a y t h a t w e a r e h a p p y w i t h t h i s m a n . C h a ir p e r s o n w e w e r e w o r k i n g v e r y w e ll , I m e a n a t c e r t a in p o i n t C h a ir p e r s o n , I f i g h t w i th th e m i t ’s n o r m a l b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e is s u e s t h a t 10 I c a n n o t t o l e r a t e o r S A B C c a n n o t to le r a t e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s s o t h is i s s u e t h a t y o u ’v e j u s t t o ld t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t i s w h e r e t h e n t h o s e e m p l o y e e s b e lo n g i n g t o t h a t u n i o n , a b o u t 3 0 0 o f th e m w e r e p a i d R 1 0 0 0 0 e a c h ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir. Ye s th a t ’s t h e is s u e t h a t y o u ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . A n d t h a t a m o u n t e d t o a b o u t R 3 m il li o n ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: 20 Ye s c h a ir, n o t e x a c t ly t h a t number but yes. CHAIRPERSON: O h a n d e s ti m a t e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d e s ti m a t e y e s a n d th e n y o u w e n t M r M o ts o e n e n g – I th in k t h e G C O o f th e S A B C h a s t e s t i fi e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a m o u n t o f a b o u t R 5 b il li o n o n w a s te f u l a n d ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e o v e r a l l d e a li n g w i th t h e c o n t r a c ts t h a t w e r e c o n c l u d e d u r i n g t h a t t i m e w h e r e Page 50 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 tax clearance c e r t i fic a t e s w e r e n o t o r ig in a l, w h e r e people were e m p l o y e d w i t h o u t f o ll o w i n g d u e p r o c e s s . S o a t c o m b i n a t i o n o f fa c t o r s t h a t a m o u n t e d t o th a t f i g u r e . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: C h a i r p e r s o n i t is a h e a r s a y t h e y d i d n ’ t p r e s e n t e v i d e n c e . I n m y a ff id a v i t I p r e s e n te d t h e fi n a n c i a l s o f th e S A B C , I p r e s e n t e d th e g o v e r n a n c e o f t h e S A B C , m a y b e C h a ir p e r s o n l e t m e j u s t g o b a c k , I t h i n k D r N g u b a n e d i d a l lu d e t o th e is s u e o f w h e n t h e y jo i n e d S A B C a s a B o a r d t h e r e w e r e p r o b l e m s t h e r e , I m e a n g o v e r n a n c e i s s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d w h e n t h e y a p p o i n t m e to 10 a c t a s C O O w h a t I d i d C h a i r p e r s o n , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e u s in g c o n s u l t a n t s fr o m o u ts id e a n d t h e n I s a i d t o t h e m w h y c a n ’ t w e u s e p e o p l e w i t h i n t h e S A B C b e c a u s e y o u h a v e p e o p l e fr o m in t e r n a l a u d i t, y o u h a v e p e o p le fr o m f i n a n c e , y o u h a v e p e o p le fr o m r i s k , th o s e p e o p l e they u n d e r s ta n d the governance is s u e s even better th a n me C h a ir p e r s o n a n d in a n y c a s e I r e l y o n t h e m b e c a u s e t h a t is n o t m y s p e c i a l – I d o n ’t s p e c i a l is e in t h o s e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n . S o i f y o u l o o k fr o m 2 0 0 8 a n d 2 0 0 9 A u d it o r G e n e r a l id e n t i fy g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s , A u d i t o r G e n e r a l id e n ti fy th e S A B C o n to p is m o r e b lo a t e d C h a ir p e r s o n . A u d i t o r G e n e r a l a ls o i d e n ti f ie d t h a t t h e r e w e r e p r o b l e m s w i t h p e r s o n n e l 20 w i t h i n S A B C , t h a t ’s w h y t h e B o a r d t o o k a r e s o l u ti o n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y a d h e r e d to w h a t A u d i t o r G e n e r a l is r e c o m m e n d i n g C h a i r p e r s o n . S o – b u t i n my t i m e C h a ir p e r s o n f r o m – I a c t th a t i n 2 0 11 o n N o v e m b e r o n t h e 1 8 t h b u t I c a n s a y I s ta r t e d w o r k i n g in 2 0 1 2 , y o u k n o w D e c e m b e r, a l l o ffi c e a n d o t h e r p e o p le t h e y ’r e m o v in g a w a y C h a ir p e r s o n . If you lo o k a t t h e fi n a n c i a ls fr o m 2 0 1 2 C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u ’l l s e e a h u g e Page 51 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 i m p r o v e m e n t t h e n n o w w e ’ r e t a lk i n g a b o u t b i ll io n c a s h , I’ m j u s t g iv in g y o u r r o u g h ly C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u m o v e f o r w a r d a n d t h e n i n 2 0 1 3 y o u f i n d d is c l a i m e r w o r s t p a r t. I s t a r t w o r k i n g i n 2 0 1 2 n o w, 2 0 1 3 y o u h a v e d is c l a i m e r w h a t i n fo r ms d is c l a i m e r C h a ir p e r s o n is b e c a u s e n o w w e ’ r e a u d it e d b y A u d i t o r G e n e r a l . In h e p a s t w e w e r e a u d it e d b y K P M G , w h e n A u d i t o r G e n e r a l c o m e s h e t a lk s a b o u t is s u e s t h a t S A B C p e o p le t h e y d o n ’t e v e n u n d e r s t a n d a n d w h a t I d id C h a i r p e r s o n , I p u t a t a s k t e a m t o d e a l w it h th e a u d i t g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s a n d C h a ir p e r s o n I have s u b m i tt e d m y a ffi d a v i t a n d p r o o f o n w h a t I’ m s a y i n g fr o m A u d i t o r 10 G e n e r a l, audited f in a n c ia l statement and governance s t a te m e n t , a u d it e d C h a ir p e r s o n . S o i n 2 0 1 4 C h a ir p e r s o n I p u t th is te a m , w e m o v e fr o m d i s c la i m e r t o a q u a l i fic a ti o n , I r e a lis e t h a t w e a r e n o t r e a ll y d e a li n g w i t h – w e a r e n o t a b l e t o a c h ie v e w h a t w e s h o u l d a c h i e v e C h a ir p e r s o n , I d e c id e d a n d I i n f o r m e d t h e B o a r d a n d I a s k e d th e B o a r d t o s a y, y o u k n o w w h a t I r e a l is e h e r e , in t h e m e e ti n g w i t h A u d i to r G e n e r a l i t a lw a y s f i g h t in g a m o n g s t m a n a g e m e n t a n d A u d i to r G e n e r a l b e c a u s e m a n a g e m e n t t h e y d is a g r e e w i th t h e m . I s a i d m a y b e t o f ix t h is is s u e w h y c a n ’ t w e g o a n d c a t c h a fis h fr o m A u d it o r G e n e r a l , a t l e a s t s o m e o n e w h o h a s c l u e a b o u t h o w A u d i t o r G e n e r a l o p e r a t e , t h a t’s w h y 20 C h a ir p e r s o n , I w a s lo o k i n g f o r a f is h th a t I k n o w t h a t a t l e a s t t h e f is h w a s a u d i t in g t h e S A B C . T h a t f is h h e w a s c a tc h e d b y o th e r e n ti ty, I a s k e d t h is fis h … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: B e f o r e y o u c o u ld c a tc h t h e F is h ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n , o t h e r p e o p l e c a tc h i n g h i m . I a s k e d t h is p e r s o n w e a r e l o o k i n g fo r s o m e o n e t o a s s is t Page 52 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 u s a n d th e n t h e H R i n f o r m e d t h e m t h e y w e n t f o r h e a d h u n t in g , I t h i n k t h e y in t e r v i e w e d t w o o r t h r e e p e o p l e i n c l u d i n g t h e p e r s o n fr o m A u d i t o r G e n e r a l w h i c h is J a m e s A g u m a , t h e y r e c o m m e n d h i m t o m e t o s a y t h is is th e p e r s o n t h a t w e t h i n k b e c a u s e t h e s e o th e r s t h e y d o n ’ t c o m e fr o m A G , a l t h o u g h t h e y h a v e u n d e r s t a n d i n g b u t th is o n e h e ’s b e tt e r b e c a u s e h e h a s b e e n a u d i t in g e n ti t ie s h e h a s b e e n a u d it i n g g o v e r n m e n t , w e c a tc h t h is f is h w h ic h w e ’r e l o o k i n g n o w w h ic h is J a m e s A g u m a . W h e n J a m e s A g u m a , C h a i r p e r s o n h e t o o k u s t o t h r e e q u a l if ic a ti o n s , t h r e e q u a li fi c a t io n s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] 10 CHAIRPERSON: MR HLAUDI Fr o m e i g h t ? GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ja fr o m eight to th r e e q u a li fi c a t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: I s t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e f in a n c i a l y e a r in w h i c h h e started? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Audited. Ye s . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n n o w I’ m d e a li n g w it h th e g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s , t h o s e q u a li fi c a t io n s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , n o w h a t I’ m a s k i n g is w h e t h e r w h e n h e c a m e , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l h a d e i g h t q u a l if ic a ti o n s in t e r m s o f i t ’s a u d it o f t h e S A B C ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. A n d th e n h e c a m e , t h a t is Mr A g u m a a n d h e c a m e a t a ti m e w h e n t h e r e w e r e e i g h t q u a li fi c a t io n s a n d y o u s a y t h a t h e to o k S A B C t o t h r e e q u a li f ic a t i o n s . Page 53 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. S o m y q u e s ti o n i s w h e t h e r h e a c h i e v e d th a t in h is fir s t f in a n c ia l y e a r o r o v e r a c e r t a in n u m b e r o f f in a n c ia l y e a r s ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: In h i s f ir s t , i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I d e m o n s tr a te d t h e r e , y o u ’ ll s e e t h e fi n a n c i a l s i n t h a t – i n m y a ff id a v i t a t t a c h m e n t s o i n th e f ir s t y e a r h e i m p r o v e d th e g o v e r n a n c e i s s u e s fr o m q u a l i fi c a t io n s , e i g h t q u a l i fic a ti o n s t o t h r e e q u a li f ic a ti o n s . W h e n I le f t th e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n i n 2 0 1 6 w e were 10 having one q u a li fi c a t io n , audited by Auditor General, one q u a li fi c a t io n a n d C h a i r p e r s o n y o u k n o w i t w a s a t e c h n ic a l i ty b e c a u s e o f t h is a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n th e t e a m a t t h e S A B C a n d th a t c a u s e d t h a t q u a li fi c a t io n . I f t h e y a g r e e , a n d a t t h a t t i m e C h a ir p e r s o n , r e m e m b e r i n 2 0 1 5 a n d 2 0 1 6 I w a s n o t th e r e a t t h e S A B C b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s I w a s o n s p e c ia l l e a v e b e c a u s e o f t h e C o u r t m a t t e r s a n d s o o n a n d s o o n b u t it w a s o n e q u a li fi c a t io n C h a i r p e r s o n . W h e n th e B o a r d c a m e , th e in t e r i m B o a r d t h e y w e n t b a c k t o t h is t h i n g . S o y o u a s k a q u e s ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n , h o w c a n y o u fi n d o n e q u a l if ic a ti o n a n d y o u w e n t b a c k t o a d is c l a i m e r o r a d v e r s e o p i n i o n C h a ir p e r s o n , I’ m j u s t n o w tr y in g to fi n d e x a c tl y – o r a d v e r s e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . 20 CHAIRPERSON: J a j u s t c o n tr a s t in g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s o p i n i o n C h a ir p e r s o n , t h a t is a p r o b l e m t h e r e a n d i n m y v i e w C h a i r p e r s o n , a n d w h a t I ’v e b e e n in f o r m e d b e c a u s e w h e n t h e i n t e r i m B o a r d c a m e t h e y s a i d n o w e a r e g o i n g to c le a n u p t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . W e a r e g o i n g t o i m p le m e n t t h e a d h o c c o m m i t t e e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b u t e v e n i f y o u w a n t t o a c t o n t h a t , y o u Page 54 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 m u s t t a k e ti m e t o u n d e r s ta n d th e b u s i n e s s o f th e S A B C b e c a u s e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l , C h a ir p e r s o n , r e m e m b e r i t ’s a t e s t , t h e y te s t, if t h e y g o t o th is o n e , th is o n e g iv e s y o u th is s to r y a n d th a t o n e y o u a r e g o in g t o c a u s e t h a t h a v o c th a t t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y c a u s e d th e m s e lv e s b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e y d id n ’t r e c o g n i s e m a n a g e m e n t , b e c a u s e I w a s n o t th e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e y – t h e y d id n ’ t r e c o g n is e m a n a g e m e n t s o t h e y c a u s e d a d i s c la i m e r t h e m s e l v e s , t h e y a ls o g e t r i d o f t h e c o n s u l t a n t , p e o p le w h o w e r e ta k e n t o f i x a ll t h is g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e s a y i n g i t’s ir r e g u l a r b u t y o u s h o u l d l o o k a t t h e 10 r a ti o n a le a n d t h e p r o c e s s th a t h a v e b e e n f o l lo w e d C h a i r p e r s o n . So t h e y c a m e w i th t h e g u n s b l a z in g fr o m A d H o c C o m m i t t e e C h a i r p e r s o n . T h a t i s t h e is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t I c a n s a y t h a t w h e n I le f t S A B C I ’ m v e r y p r o u d , I ’ m v e r y p r o u d a b o u t th e p r e v io u s B o a r d , I ’ m v e r y p r o u d about the SABC management because we achieved what we were s u p p o s e d t o a c h i e v e a l th o u g h w e h a v e t h a t o n e q u a li f ic a t i o n . W h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e f in a n c ia ls , C h a ir p e r s o n , b e c a u s e i t g o e s h a n d - i n h a n d , w h e n i t c o m e s t o th e fi n a n c i a l s I h a v e d e m o n s tr a te d in m y ti m e w e t a lk a b o u t b i ll io n a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a ls b y A u d i t o r G e n e r a ls C h a i r p e r s o n , c o n s i s te n c y s h o w. 20 N o w p e o p l e a r e s a y i n g H l a u d i c a u s e d h a v o c fo r S A B C , S A B C i s c o ll a p s i n g b e c a u s e o f lo c a l c o n t e n t . C h a ir p e r s o n h o w c a n S A B C c o ll a p s e o n l o c a l c o n t e n t w h e n w e a r e b u d g e t e d R 6 0 0 m i ll io n for local content, there was a budget. If there was no budget and then I w e n t a n d t a k e f u n d s f r o m a n o th e r d e p a r t m e n t , d iv i s i o n o r r e s e r v e s , m a y b e th e y w il l h a v e a p o i n t b u t th e r e w a s a b u d g e t , R 6 0 0 m il li o n t o in v e s t i n l o c a l c o n t e n t , C h a ir p e r s o n a n d w h e n I l e f t S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n , Page 55 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 c a s h R 8 8 1 m il li o n is th e r e i n t h o s e f in a n c i a ls o f t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n . R 8 8 1 m il li o n b u t th e y d i d n ’ t k n o w h o w t o d e a l w i th t h e s e i s s u e s b e c a u s e I l e f t S A B C , R 8 8 1 m il li o n b u t C h a ir p e r s o n a l o n g t h e w a y y o u w il l fi n d t h a t m a y b e t h e y w e r e h a v i n g m a y b e R 5 0 0 m il li o n o r R 4 0 0 m il li o n i n t h e b a n k , b u t y o u s h o u ld k n o w i f y o u h a v e t h a t a m o u n t w h a t s te p s s h o u l d y o u ta k e t o c o v e r a n d t h a t s t e p C h a ir p e r s o n is t h e r e in t h a t d o c u m e n t o f A g u m a , w h e r e th e s a id I t r i e d to r a is e R 1 0 0 m il li o n to t o p - u p t h e a m o u n t b e c a u s e t h e s e r v ic e d i v is io n t h e y c o u l d n o t a c h ie v e R 6 0 0 m i ll io n because 10 to run SABC C h a ir p e r s o n you only need R 6 0 0 m i ll io n o p e r a ti o n a ll y t o p a y y o u r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s a n d d o o t h e r s t u ff . If y o u h a v e R 6 0 0 m i ll io n y o u a r e f in e C h a ir p e r s o n . S o i f y o u h a v e R 8 0 0 m il li o n a u d it e d f in a n c i a ls , y o u a r e m o r e t h a n g o o d , y o u a ls o h a v e t o m a k e s u r e that, th a t circle, you g e n e r a te revenue. The p r o b le m there C h a ir p e r s o n , i s t h e h o w, t h e h o w is v e r y i m p o r t a n t C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. The document that y o u ’r e r e f e r r i n g C h a i r t h a t s h o w s – a l t h o u g h t h is o n e is a c o p y w h ic h d o e s n ’t s e e m t o b e s i g n e d b y t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l b u t i t ’s p a g e 2 6 4 , t h a t ’s w h e r e i t s h o w s t h e q u a li f ie d / u n q u a l if i e d d i s c l a i m e r s th a t h e ’s 20 t a lk in g t o b e w e a r e s o u r in g t h e o r i g in a l . CHAIRPERSON: N o th a t ’s fi n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I ju s t w a n t t o r e m i n d y o u t h a t I i n t e r r u p t e d y o u a t a c e r t a i n s ta g e w h e n y o u a p p e a r e d t o s t il l w a n t to a s k s o m e q u e s t i o n s o r d r a w a t t e n t i o n t o c e r ta in p a r t s o f t h e m in u te s o f th e B o a r d t h a t h a v e Page 56 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t h o s e v a r io u s a m o u n t s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: O h y e s C h a i r. S o ju s t i n c a s e a s a r e s u l t o f m y i n te r r u p ti o n y o u h a v e f o r g o t t e n t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u s t ill w a n t e d t o c o v e r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir, t h e r e w a s a ls o s o m e t h i n g t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g s p o k e a b o u t w h ic h – w h e n h e m e n t io n e d d e v i a t i o n in s o f a r a s t h e v is io n v i e w i s c o n c e r n e d . C h a ir t h a t d o c u m e n t C h a ir w e ’ ll fi n d i t a t p a g e s – u n d e r H M 7 , t h is is t h e p a g e 1 7 3 a n d i t’s w r i t te n b y t h e G r o u p C o m p a n y S e c r e ta r y a n d i t s a y s , 10 “ Fr o m t h e c e r t if i e d e x tr a c t o f t h e s u c c e s s f u l r o u n d r o b i n a p p r o v a l c o n c l u d e d o n 3 1 J u ly 2 0 1 5 t o a p p r o v e a d e v i a ti o n fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s t o a c q u ir e a m u lt i- p u r p o s e s e t a n d s t u d i o b u s in e s s c a s e . R e s o lv e t h a t a p p r o v a l b e a n d is h e r e b y g i v e n f o r t h e S A B C s p o r t a n d n e w s d iv is i o n s to d e v i a t e fr o m n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s i n o r d e r t o a p p o i n t v i s i o n v ie w f o r t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n o f a m u l ti- p u r p o s e s e t a n d s t u d io in c l u d i n g a l l t e c h n ic a l c o m p o n e n ts t o s e r v ic e t h e S A B C s p o r t a n d n e w s d i v i s i o n a t a n a m o u n t o f R 3 9 3 8 0 0 0 0 e x c l u s iv e o f VAT. 20 T h e h e a d o f s p o r t a n d G E te c h n o l o g y [ in d i s ti n c t ] m a n d a t e d t o c o n c l u d e a n d s i g n a ll c o n tr a c t d o c u m e n t a t i o n o u t li n e d i n r e s o l u ti o n o n e a b o v e o n b e h a lf o f t h e S A B C . C e r t i fi e d a tr u e e x tr a c t o f t h e m i n u te ” , S o w h e n y o u ’ r e t a lk in g – w h e n y o u m e n ti o n e d a d e v i a ti o n o f a R 3 9 m il li o n p r o je c t. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. Page 57 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d th a t d e v i a ti o n w a s i t - w a s s e n t t o Tr e a s u r y f o r a p p r o v a l? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I’ m n o t s u r e C h a ir p e r s o n a s t h e C O O my r o le i s t o o v e r s e e th e o r g a n i s a ti o n , th e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e o r t h e h e a d s o f t h e d iv is io n s th o s e a r e th e p e o p l e i n c l u d i n g – e s p e c ia lly b e c a u s e i f y o u t a lk a b o u t Tr e a s u r y is t h e r o l e o f th e C F O , it ’s t h e r o l e of the CFO to make sure that…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Pr o c e s s e s a r e fo ll o w e d ? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : 10 Ye s b u t m y k n o w le d g e , C h a ir p e r s o n o n t h is m a t t e r, I t h i n k i t’s d u r in g t h a t t i m e th e r e w e r e n o r e g u la t io n s f o r S A B C t o a s k p e r m is s io n fr o m Tr e a s u r y, I ’ m t a lk i n g u n d e r c o r r e c t io n b u t t h a t is m y m e m o r y C h a ir p e r s o n , I k n o w th a t r e g u la t io n s c a m e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: A t s o m e s ta g e . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: At a certain stage and there w a s s o m e d e b a t e i t b u t m y m e m o r i e s C h a ir p e r s o n , I t h i n k t h e p e r s o n w h o c a n c o n f ir m t h a t is th e f o r m e r C F O w h e t h e r th e y d i d r e c e i v e s u c h document or head of procurement. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and then the one last aspect w h e n I p u t t h e r e a s o n s a m o u n t in g t o ir r e g u la r e x p e n d i tu r e t h e o n e th in g t h a t y o u h a v e n o t a d d r e s s e d n o w is t h e ir r e g u la r i n c r e m e n t s a n d a p p o i n t m e n ts o f c e r ta i n s t a ff o ff ic ia ls a n d t h e y w e r e m e n t io n e d – I t h i n k t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a ls o d e a l t w i t h t h o s e M s G u g u D u d a a n d y o u r o w n s a l a r y in c r e m e n t s a c c o r d i n g t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a n d I k n o w D r Page 58 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 N g u b a n e h a d d e a l t w i t h t h a t – I’ m s o r r y n o t D r N g u b a n e , M s M o h k o b o h a d d e a l t w i t h t h o s e s a l a r y a d ju s t m e n t s r e l a ti n g t o y o u , c o u l d y o u j u s t b r i e fl y t e ll th e C h a ir a b o u t t h a t ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u k n o w I h a v e p a i n a b o u t t h i s m a lic i o u s g a t h e r i n g o f i n fo r m a t i o n b e c a u s e i t is in c o r r e c t t h a t I a p p o i n t e d p e o p l e i r r e g u l a r s o . C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e c u s t o d i a n o f a p p o i n t m e n ts is H R , i t ’s H u m a n R e s o u r c e s o th e r e is n o w a y t h a t H la u d i c a n w a k e u p i n t h e m o r n i n g a n d a p p o in t s o m e o n e e v e n if I w a n t to d o t h a t t h e H R w i ll s a y, n o . I f I h a v e a p p o i n t e d s o m e o n e 10 t h a t s o m e o n e w i ll b e a p r o c e s s o f H R n o t m y p r o c e s s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e y a r e th e g a t e k e e p e r f o r s u c h m a t t e r s w it h in t h e S A B C b u t I h a v e d e m o n s tr a te d t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u w i ll s e e th a t I d i d n ’ t appoint those people proof is there, who signed, maybe salary in c r e m e n ts a n d a p p o in t m e n ts y o u ’l l s e e t h a t t h e f o r m e r G C O M e l u a M a m a g o b o a n d t h e H R t o g e t h e r th e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o d e a l t w i th t h a t is s u e . E x a m p le C h a ir p e r s o n m y PA , I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d i t is a n H R is s u e , t h e y s a id t o m e t h a t a f t e r e ff e c t s , a n d I w a s to l d b y m y PA t o s a y I h a v e b e e n g iv e n s a la r y i n c r e m e n t b u t I k n e w a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e s a y in g t h r e e d i r e c t o r s t h e ir PA t h e y s h o u l d b e o n 20 p a r, y o u c a n ’t h a v e – b e c a u s e w e ’r e a ll d i r e c t o r s y o u c a n ’ t h a v e s o m e o n e s i t ti n g i n t h a t l e v e l w h e n i t c o m e s t o p a c k a g e s o m e o n e s i t t in g in t h a t le v e l b u t th a t o n e a l s o c a n b e a ls o in f o r m e d b y th e b y t e a m o f in d i v i d u a ls b e c a u s e if y o u h a v e b e e n t h e r e f o r t o o l o n g i t’s o b v i o u s t h a t y o u ’ ll h a v e a m o r e p a c k a g e th a n s o m e o n e w h o j u s t j o i n e d t h a t d iv is io n C h a ir p e r s o n . S o i n th a t C h a i r p e r s o n , e s p e c i a l ly fr o m t h e P u b l ic Page 59 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 P r o t e c t o r y o u a r e g iv e n C h a i r p e r s o n , I r e s p o n d I h a v e g iv e n t o s a y I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d . T h e S A B C h a s g iv e n to s a y h e w a s n o t in v o lv e d t h e e v i d e n c e i s t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e p u t e v id e n c e t h e r e . Ex a m p l e C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e is r e s o l u ti o n , t h e r e s o l u ti o n s a y s o n e o f t h e e m p l o y e e h e s h a l l b e r e m o v e d i n th e c o r p o r a t e p l a n b e c a u s e h e r p o s i ti o n r e a l ly is n o t t h e r e . S o i t ’s t h e r e s o l u ti o n o f t h e B o a r d b u t t h e fi n d i n g s o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r is H l a u d i a n d th e n o t io n th a t h a s b e e n g iv e n to p e o p l e C h a ir p e r s o n i s t h a t i t s e e m s a s i f t h e r e w a s n o B o a r d a t t h e S A B C , I w a s th e B o a r d b e c a u s e i t s e e m s a s i f e v e r y t h in g I w a s 10 d o i n g e v e r y t h i n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: W e r e y o u n o t t h e B o a r d a n d w e r e y o u n o t th e S A B C ? MR HLAUDI GEORG E MO TSO ENENG: Ye s I w a s n o t C h a ir p e r s o n I a ls o , i f y o u c h e c k C h a ir p e r s o n y o u h a v e a B o a r d w h ic h I m u s t a c c o u n t e d t o th e B o a r d , t h e y a r e t h e p e o p l e … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t I’ m s a y i n g i n a li g h t n o t e . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a ir, t h a n k y o u C h a i r s o f o r m e e v e n m e d i a C h a i r p e r s o n t h e r e w e r e p e o p le w h o w e r e p o r tr a y in g m e , y o u a s k y o u r s e l f , y o u h a v e D r N g u b a n e – I’ m ju s t y o u n o w a b o u t p e o p l e th a t I t h i n k , y o u h a v e D r N g u b a n e , y o u h a v e P r o f e s s o r s th e r e 20 C h a ir p e r s o n a n d m a n y - y o u h a v e la w y e r s , a r e t h e s e p e o p l e s t u p i d j u s t t o b e t a k e n b y t h i s [ i n d is ti n c t ] a n d t h o u g h w h a t e v e r, i t c a n ’ t b e C h a ir p e r s o n . I m e a n b e c a u s e w h e n y o u a p p o in t th e s e p e o p l e t h e y m u s t k n o w w h a t t h e y ’r e s u p p o s e d t o d o . S o t o b e h o n e s t t o p o r t r a y a s S A B C t h e d e c is io n s o f t h e S A B C , t h is H l a u d i I t h i n k i t i s m a lic io u s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d i t is w r o n g f o r p e o p l e to t a i n t my n a m e a n d a ls o I d o n ’ t Page 60 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t h i n k t h o s e p e o p le w h o w e r e i n c h a r g e f o r S A B C B o a r d t h e y a r e r e s p e c te d , i n m y v i e w b e c a u s e i t s e e m s a s th e r e w a s n o B o a r d , t h e r e w a s n o G C O , t h e r e w a s n o m a n a g e m e n t g e n e r a l , t h e o n ly p e r s o n w a s H l a u d i , it w a s m y c o m p a n y I th i n k C h a ir p e r s o n , a c c o r d i n g to p e o p l e w h ic h i s m i s l e a d in g C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l i t ’s i m p o r ta n t th a t y o u d e a l w i th i t b e c a u s e I d i d a s k s o m e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s fr o m S A B C w h a t i t is – w h a t i t w a s a b o u t y o u t h a t s e e m s t o h a v e m a d e p e o p le o r m a n y p e o p l e t o fe e l lik e t h e y h a d t o d o w h a te v e r y o u s a i d s h o u l d b e d o n e , y o u k n o w, w h e r e d i d th is 10 k in d o f i n fl u e n c e c o m e fr o m o r if i t w a s f e a r, w h e r e w a s i t c o m i n g fr o m w h a t w a s t h e b a s is f o r it , s o I’ m s a y i n g i t ’s g o o d t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h i t b e c a u s e I d o w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n d m a y b e I ’ m n o t b e e n t o ld th e w h o le s t o r y b u t w e a r e n o t d o n e w i t h o t h e r w i tn e s s e s s o m a y b e o n e w ill e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r t h a t i m p r e s s io n a n d t h a t p e r c e p t i o n h a s a f a c tu a l b a s is o r n o t . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n o n e in t e r e s ti n g s t o r y, w h e n I w a s i n t h e F r e e S t a t e I t h i n k I w a s a c t in g a s r e g io n a l E d it o r, t h e u n i o n s t h e y d i d n ’ t w a n t m e C h a ir p e r s o n , it ’s w e ll w r it t e n media and so on. 20 One day they drove to Bloemfontein because a c c o r d i n g t o th e m , th e y w e r e w o r k e r s t h e y w e r e g o i n g to b e a t C o u r t a n d t o i t o i b e c a u s e t h e y d o n ’t w a n t m e a t t h e S A B C . W h e n t h e y d r o v e a n d r e a c h e d a t t h e S A B C t h e y ’r e e x p e c t i n g t h a t – th e l e a d e r s o f th e u n i o n s t h e y a r e e x p e c ti n g t h e w o r k e r s t o b e o u ts id e to i t o in g . W h a t s u r p r is e d th e m w h e n th e y a r r i v e d th e u n i o n s a y s n o w e support Hlaudi. We are not going to do that. Page 61 of 169 A n d w h e n I a s k th e m 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 s o m e o n e s a i d t o th e m , n o t o m o r r o w w e a r e g o i n g t o s tr ik e , a b l a c k o u t o n t h e S A B C b e c a u s e t h is m a n is t o r t u r i n g u s . man. And then I met this I s a id b u t w h y y o u a r e s a y i n g I a m t o r tu r i n g p e o p l e ? Can we m a y b e d is c u s s s o t h a t w e r e s o lv e d o u r is s u e s . T h e m a n s a y s t o m e , I a l w a y s d r e a m a b o u t y o u w h e n I a m i n b e d I a m s l e e p in g . So C h a ir p e r s o n h o w d o y o u d e a l w i th s u c h is s u e s ? S o in v i e w C h a ir p e r s o n I a m n o t a p s y c h o l o g is t I s a id m a y b e y o u m u s t d r e a m d u r i n g t h e d a y. B e c a u s e y o u c a n s e e , y o u c a n f e e l it , y o u c a n s e e m e . C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e th a t d r e a m o f h is c a u s e d a l l t h is c h a o s n o t r o w r o w 10 C h a ir p e r s o n n o w I a m u s in g t h is c h a o s C h a ir p e r s o n c a u s e a ll t h i s c h a o s . A n d p e o p l e c a m e th e r e a n d th e n I t a k e h i m t h r o u g h a n d t h e n w e t a lk C h a ir p e r s o n t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t – w h a t is h a p p e n i n g . I s m in d n o i t w a s j u s t t h e y s a y d r e a m in g . I s a i d y o u k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n o n t h e li g h t note… CHAIRPERSON: S o e ff e c t iv e l y h e w a s s a y i n g y o u v is i t h i m i n h is dreams? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . S o in h is d r e a m i t w a s r e a li ty t h a t a n y ti m e I a m g o i n g t o d is m i s s h i m . Ye s i t w a s h is r e a li t y C h a ir p e r s o n a n d o n ly o n e p e r s o n . B u t C h a ir p e r s o n a l l t h o s e 20 people they were shocked. Because instead of people toyi toyi they w e r e s in g in g a b o u t m e . S o t h a t is t h e – I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n i t has been happening. I r e m e m b e r s o m e o n e w r o te a n e m a i l s a y i n g n o H l a u d i is th e C o m m i s s io n e r o f th e P o l ic e . B e c a u s e th e y w e r e s a y in g w h y c a n H la u d i n o t b e a r r e s t e d . A n d I d o n o t k n o w fo r w h a t . T h e m a n w r o t e a n e m a il t o s a y n o y o u k n o w H l a u d i c o n tr o ls t h e C o m m is s i o n e r o f Page 62 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t h e P o li c e . I d o n o t e v e n k n o w t h is c o m m is s io n e r C h a ir p e r s o n . I h a v e n e v e r m e t th e C o m m is s i o n e r. S o I d o n o t k n o w w h a t is h a p p e n i n g w h e n it c o m e s t o m e C h a i r p e r s o n h o w o t h e r p e o p l e v i e w m e . I d o n o t k n o w. M a y b e i t is th e ir – a ll o f t h e m t h e y a r e d r e a m i n g . M a y b e in c l u d i n g m e d i a th e y d r e a m a n d th e n t h e y w r i t e a b o u t m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I am just giving you the b a c k g r o u n d C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Some of the… 10 MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG: T h a t is w h y C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s v e r y i m p o r ta n t to g o in s i d e t h e S A B C . I t i s v e r y i m p o r ta n t C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t I p l a y th a t c l ip C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e i t is n o t – it i s n o t 2 5 m i n u t e s . I t h i n k r o u g h ly i t c a n t w o c l ip s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I c a n a p p e a l t h a t w e m u s t p l a y. O t h e r s w e c a n l e a v e . O n e c l ip I th in k i t i s o n e m i n u te . P lu s o r tw o m i n u t e s . O n e i s I t h in k m o r e th a n fi v e m i n u te s . I f I a m c o r r e c t . A n d I k n o w y o u r t e a m C h a ir p e r s o n th e y h a v e a lr e a d y p a c k a g e d t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: T h o s e a r e v e r y c r i tic a l c li p s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e y o u w il l s e e i n s i d e t h e S A B C b e c a u s e p e o p le w h o 20 a r e c o m i n g h e r e th e y d o n o t r e p r e s e n t m o r e t h a n 3 0 0 0 p e o p l e w it h in t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n . S o I th i n k i t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t C h a ir p e r s s o n to a p p ly y o u r m i n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d s e e s o th a t y o u a r e a b le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 63 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: To d e a l w i t h th e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n . I w il l b e h a p p y t h a t w e p l a y t h a t c li p C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: A n d n o t b e h in d th e s c e n e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOT SOEN ENG: Because people came here put m e a s a d e v i l s o i t m u s t b e p l a y e d p u b li c l y s o t h a t p e o p le c a n s e e w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w i th in t h e S A B C C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , N o th a t i s f in e . W e – a s y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r fr o m y e s te r d a y w e d e c i d e d t h a t I w i ll n o t m a k e a n y d e c is io n n o w b u t la t e r o n i n d u e c o u r s e y o u r c o u n s e l w il l l o o k a t t h e w h o l e t h i n g a n d i f n e e d b e r e n e w th e a p p l ic a ti o n a n d t h e n w e c a n d e a l w i t h i t . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r M o t s o e n e n g w e n o w a t th e t a il e n d o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . W e h a d a lr e a d y d e a l t w i t h t h e is s u e s r e l a ti n g t o t h e m a tr ic c e r t i fic a t e b u t C h a i r j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d a n a ffi d a v i t th a t is m e n t i o n e d in t h e S C A j u d g m e n t c a s e n u m b e r 3 9 3 /2 0 1 5 20 w h e r e i t w a s b e t w e e n t h e – in th e m a tt e r o f th e S A B C a n d t h e D e m o c r a tic A l li a n c e . I n t h e j u d g m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 t h e c o u r t s ta t e d t h e f o l lo w i n g : “ I n h is a n s w e r i n g a ff id a v i t M r M o ts o e n e n g s t a te d th a t I h a v e b e e n u n a b l e t o tr a c e S w a n e p o e l a g a i n . B u t i t w o u ld s e e m t h a t s h e d i d d e p o s e t o a n a ffi d a v i t i n Page 64 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 w h ic h s h e d is p u te s th is v e r s i o n . T h a t a ffi d a v it f o r s o m e i n e x p l ic a b l e r e a s o n d o e s n o t f o r m p a r t o f t h e appeal record.” W e m a n a g e d C h a ir t o l o o k f o r th is a ffi d a v i t a n d i t o n l y c a m e t o h a n d y e s t e r d a y a n d w e h a v e g iv e n i t t o M r M o t s o e n e n g ’s t e a m a n d t h e y h a v e r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e y b e a ffo r d e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e a l w i t h i t i n w r i ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir t h e n – t h e n w e w i ll th e n s k i p th a t p a r t t h a t d e a ls w i t h – y e s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Well the – I did say I think yesterday A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O r w a s i t t h e d a y b e f o r e t h a t i t w o u ld b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t i f p o s s ib le M s S w a n e p o e l b e s e c u r e d t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I f p o s s ib le a n d in p a r tic u l a r I a m – I w a s lo o k i n g a t t h e i n t e r a c ti o n b e t w e e n h e r s e l f – b e tw e e n h e r a n d M r M o t s o e n e n g a t t h e t i m e o f t h e c o m p le t io n o f th e a p p lic a ti o n fo r e m p l o y m e n t fo r m . T h a t d is c u s s io n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e a ffi d a v i t d o e s d e a l w i t h that or you do not know? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir i t d o e s d e a l w i t h t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : It d o e s ? Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B u t a ls o C h a ir i f I m a y ju s t r e p o r t . The in v e s t i g a t o r s h a d b e e n r e l ia b ly in f o r m e d t h a t M s S w a n e p o e l h a s s i n c e Page 65 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 p a s s e d o n b u t w e r e q u e s t e d th e m t o c h e c k w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To c o n fi r m t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I j u s t h o p e it m a y b e i t is ju s t a r u m o u r. I d o n o t k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o t h e n w e w i ll – w i t h y o u r l e a v e C h a ir t h e n n o t g o b a c k to t h a t is s u e a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o th a t a ff i d a v i t w il l … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D e a ls – i t r e l a te s … CHAIRPERSON: W il l n o t b e d e a l t w i t h t o d a y b u t w i ll b e d e a l t w i t h s o m e o th e r ti m e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o m e o t h e r t i m e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n Mr M o t s o e n e n g c o m e s b a c k . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e h e h a s r e q u e s t e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H e m u s t s t il l g e t a c h a n c e t o l o o k a t t h a t a ffi d a v it . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To l o o k a t i t a n d d e a l w i th i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M a y I j u s t – T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 66 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 A n d t h e n Mr M o ts o e n e n g t h e n t h a t t a k e s u s to th e e n d t h e n o f y o u r – o f y o u r – o f y o u r m a i n a ffi d a v i t a n d th e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t a s in d i c a t e d d o e s n o t d e a l w i t h t h e s p e c i f ic a ll e g a ti o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e b y t h e v a r io u s w i t n e s s e s a g a in s t y o u a n d C h a ir h a d d ir e c te d th a t y o u c o u l d s u p p l e m e n t t h a t a n d d e a l w i t h t h e v a r io u s a ll e g a t io n s f r o m t h e v a r io u s w i t n e s s e s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: If I may Chariperson 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Just to deal with one part C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e w e a r e f i n a li s i n g t h e fir s t a ff id a v i t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : J u s t to s u m m a r is e s o m e o f t h e is s u e s . T h e A d v o c a t e p u t a q u e s ti o n to m e w h e t h e r I w a s s to p p i n g th e jo u r n a li s ts t o f u lf il t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e S A B C b y s a y in g t h e y s h a ll n o t s h o w t h o s e v is u a ls . C h a ir p e r s o n m y s u b m is s io n t o y o u C h a i r p e r s o n is b e c a u s e t h e q u e s t i o n w a s o u r m a n d a t e – o u r m a n d a te is i n th e p u b lic in t e r e s t . I w a n t to s u b m i t t h a t C h a i r p e r s o n . W h a t th e j o u r n a lis t s t h e y 20 w e r e fi g h ti n g f o r i t w a s n o t in t h e p u b li c i n t e r e s t . C h a ir p e r s o n is th e is s u e o f r e s e a r c h . O n e p o in t Remember the Advocate put to m e t h a t I s a i d I d o n o t b e li e v e i n r e s e a r c h w h ic h I s a i d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m a y b e b e f o r e y o u g e t t o t h e r e s e a r c h le t u s ju s t t a lk a li t tl e b i t a b o u t t h e f ir s t p a r t th a t y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h . My u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g a g a in s t th e b a c k g r o u n d o f t h e – Page 67 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 y o u r e v i d e n c e y e s te r d a y is t h a t y o u a r e d e a l in g w i t h w h a t y o u v i e w a s a d i ff e r e n c e o f o p in i o n b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h o s e jo u r n a l is ts w h e r e th e ir s t a n c e w a s w e b e l ie v e t h a t y o u a r e b a n n in g u s fr o m s h o w in g v is u a ls o f d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty d u r i n g p r o t e s t s . We believe we should show t h a t a n d i t is w r o n g t h a t w e s h o u l d b e p r e v e n te d fr o m d o in g t h a t . A n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s th e y w e r e w r o n g to s a y th a t o r t o ta k e t h a t s t a n c e b e c a u s e t h e m a n d a te o f t h e S A B C i s t o s h o w w h a t is in t h e p u b lic i n te r e s t . I s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g c o r r e c t ? 10 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: But a ls o not f o r g e t ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n w e a g r e e d t h a t th o s e v i s u a l s c e r t a i n p a r t o f t h e v i s u a ls w e d i d n o t b a n t h o s e v i s u a ls . W e w e r e j u s t s a y in g t h a t th e p h y s ic a l i ty o f t h o s e v is u a ls C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e l l y o u n o w I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e r e is n o m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o w h a t y o u r p o s i ti o n w a s a n d w h a t t h e ir p o s i ti o n w a s . A n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g fr o m t h e d is c u s s i o n w e h a d a n d I t h i n k y o u p u t i t a s a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n u s w a s t h a t a t le a s t b e f o r e 20 t h is c o m m i s s io n w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d is t h a t y o u d id n o t i n t e n d to s a y S A B C m u s t n o l o n g e r s h o w v i s u a l s o f d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r t y d u r in g protests perse. M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is th a t y o u s a id y o u r p o s i ti o n w a s y o u d id n o t w a n t t o – y o u d id n o t w a n t t h e S A B C t o s h o w v is u a ls in c e r t a i n c i r c u ms t a n c e s . O n e w a s w e ta lk e d a b o u t s o m e b o d y b e i n g b u r n t w h e n th e y c o m e o u t o f a b u r n in g b u il d i n g a n d t h e o th e r o n e is w h e r e Page 68 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 p e o p l e s a i d t o S A B C jo u r n a l is ts w e a r e g o i n g to b u r n p r o p e r ty c o m e a n d ta k e – ta k e p i c tu r e s o f w h a te v e r. N o w – n o w – a n d I s a i d t o y o u a t s o m e s t a g e y e s te r d a y s o m e b o d y m a y i n d u e c o u r s e s a y t o m e r e j e c t w h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g s a i d t o y o u n a m e ly t h a t h e d i d n o t i n t e n d t o b a n t h e s h o w i n g o f v is u a l s o f t h e d e s tr u c t io n o f p r o p e r t y. That cannot be tr u e b e c a u s e w h e n y o u l o o k a t th e s t a te m e n t t h a t h e i s s u e d t h e la n g u a g e is c l e a r a n d h e u n d e r s t o o d t h i s l a n g u a g e . tr y i n g s o m e t h i n g e ls e . H e is n o w ju s t R e m e m b e r I s a i d s o m e b o d y m ig h t a r g u e th a t a n d I g a v e y o u a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o d e a l w i t h t h a t . S o n o w c o m i n g b a c k 10 t h e n t o th is is s u e . I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h y y o u w o u ld h a v e c o n v e y e d t o t h e m t h e p o s it i o n t h a t th e s h o w i n g o f t h o s e v is u a ls w a s n o t in th e p u b lic in t e r e s t i f y o u r i n t e n ti o n w a s n o t t o b a n t h e s h o w i n g o f v is u a ls p e r s e . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: A n d C h a ir p e r s o n w h y I a m s a y in g t h i s I th i n k w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g is c o r r e c t b u t w h e n y o u p u t a 20 la w y e r C h a ir p e r s o n I m u s t a r g u e a s a la w y e r a n d m y a r g u m e n t is t h e m a n d a t e o f th e S A B C is to e d u c a t e . Yo u c a n n o t e d u c a t e b y s h o w i n g t h is g l a m o u r iz i n g – th is v i s u a l s C h a ir p e r s o n . C u r r e n t ly C h a ir p e r s o n t h e s a m e v is u a ls t h a t w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t y o u k n o w s o m e o n e h a s t a k e n h e r l if e a b r o a d b e c a u s e th is in d iv i d u a l a n d th e fa m i ly – y o u s e e t h e r e t e l e v i s i o n is v e r y d a n g e r o u s C h a ir p e r s o n . I f y o u w a tc h p e o p l e w h o a r e Page 69 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 fi g h ti n g e v e r y d a y C h a ir p e r s o n . I m e a n p e o p l e w h o a r e f i g h t in g o n t e l e v i s i o n w h e n t h e k i d s th is a r e t h e ir r o l e m o d e l . When you show t h o s e v i s u a l s fi g h ti n g i t is e v e n h a p p e n in g C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u w i ll c h e c k t h e s e m o v ie s t h e c h il d r e n th a t a r e w a tc h i n g t h o s e m o v i e s t h e g u n s t h e y play with the guns. They want the guns. t h e y s e e t h is o n te le v is i o n . Ev e n i f i t i s a t o y b e c a u s e P e o p l e s h o o t in g e a c h o th e r w h a t d o th e y d o t h e y g e t a g u n m a y b e fr o m c o u n s e l h e is h a v i n g a g u n t h e y a r e p l a y in g th e y s h o o t . C h a i r p e r s o n th is m a t t e r i t is a v e r y s e r i o u s m a t te r. I w a n t t o s u b m i t t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n th a t w e s h o u l d n o t a ll o w m e d ia to 10 o p e r a t e o u t s i d e th e m a n d a te o f a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s te r C h a ir p e r s o n . I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n th is o n e C h a ir p e r s o n w e – r e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n I a m s ti ll p u t t in g t o y o u C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I a m i n a g r e e m e n t w i th y o u I d i d n o t b a n t h o s e v is u a l s a s it is b u t i f i t c o m e s to t h e la w C h a i r p e r s o n t h is o n e I w i ll s u b m i t th a t a c t u a ll y w e a r e e n c o u r a g in g – w e a r e e n c o u r a g i n g u n l a w f u l s t u ff. C h a ir p e r s o n i f I a r g u e l ik e a l a w y e r t h e w a y C h a i r p e r s o n a n d I a m n o t a l a w y e r C h a ir p e r s o n I a m j u s t s a y in g y o u w il l d e c id e C h a ir p e r s o n . I a m ju s t p u t t in g m y v i e w s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: 20 On this matter because I have passion. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t s u c h is s u e s . A n d C h a ir p e r s o n y o u a s k th e jo u r n a l is ts a b o u t n e w s p a p e r s . T h e y s a id i t is i n te r n a ti o n a l n o r m t o b r o a d c a s t e r to t a l k a b o u t n e w s p a p e r s o n t h e ir p l a t fo r m s . I w a n t t o s u b m i t t o y o u C h a ir p e r s o n t h i s b r o a d c a s ti n g a c t Page 70 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 s a y s e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w e d o i t m u s t b e i n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n in t e r e s t e v e n the o p i n io n s of the South A fr ic a n s . in t e r n a t io n a l is n o t c o r r e c t . Chairperson. think between there is d i ff e r e n c e So the argument about T h a t is w h y C h a ir p e r s o n I private media and a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r. B e c a u s e t h e w a y w e d o t h i n g s o u r s is t o b u i l d d e m o c r a c y. O u r s is t o b u i ld t h e n a t i o n . O u r s is t o d o t h e c o r r e c t s t u ff C h a ir p e r s o n a n d d e v e lo p p e o p l e . S o w e c a n n o t C h a ir p e r s o n a r g u e b e c a u s e i t is a norm. I a c c e p t. It is a n o r m t h a t p e o p l e h a v e b e e n d o i n g t h e t h i n g s t h e w a y t h e y h a v e b e e n d o i n g . T h is i s t h e ti m e C h a ir p e r s o n fo r p e o p le 10 t o t h i n k d i ff e r e n t ly s o . CHAIRPERSON: N o w – b u t d i d – d id y o u h a v e a c o n v e r s a t i o n a l o n g t h e s e li n e s w i th a n y o f th e j o u r n a li s t s a r o u n d t h e t i m e o f t h e m e d ia s t a te m e n t fo ll o w i n g u p o n y o u r d e c is io n t h e m e d ia s t a te m e n t th a t w e w e n t th r o u g h y e s t e r d a y. D id y o u h a v e a d i s c u s s i o n a l o n g th e s e l in e s ? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG: d is c u s s in g t h e s e m a t t e r s a t to p le v e l . C h a ir p e r s o n w e h a v e b e e n J u s t d i s c u s s io n n o t f o r m a l – a d is c u s s io n b u t i n p a s s i n g w e h a v e b e e n e n g a g in g . E v e n i n s o m e o f t h e c o m m i t t e e s b u t n o t o ffi c i a l ly s o y o u c a n n o t f in d t h o s e r e c o r d s b u t w e h a v e b e e n d is c u s s i n g th e s e is s u e s a n d I s a i d y e s te r d a y C h a ir p e r s o n i f 20 p e o p l e r e a lly l o o k th e p o w e r o f m e d ia C h a ir p e r s o n p e o p l e w h o s e e s o m e p e o p l e a r e t o y i to y i . I f to d a y C h a ir p e r s o n p e o p le c a n b u r n G a u t e n g l ik e i t i s h a p p e n i n g to m o r r o w i t is Fr e e S t a t e , t o m o r r o w i t is K w a Z u l u N a ta l w h e r e it c o m e s fr o m ? Th e in fl u e n c e is m e d i a . S o – a n d w e a r e n o t s a y in g w e s h a ll n o t s h o w t h i s C h a ir p e r s o n . s u b m i t th a t w e m u s t b e r e s p o n s i b l e C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 71 of 169 Remember I I m p o r ta n t p o i n t 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d y e s t e r d a y N o t h a n d o M a s e k o t h e H e a d o f t e l e v is io n a n d S o p h i M o k w e n a t h e y c a m e t o m e a f t e r th e s t a te m e n t c o n c e r n e d C h a ir p e r s o n . L ik e m a y b e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w e r e c o n c e r n e d b u t m a n y p e o p l e a l s o C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y m a r c h to S A B C in m y s u p p o r t. E q u a lly s o t h e r e w e r e t h o s e w h o h a v e t h e ir o w n d i ff e r e n t v ie w s a b o u t th e m a t te r b u t w e s h o u l d n o t ig n o r e th e [ in d is ti n c t ] a n d o t h e r p e o p l e th e y w e r e s u p p o r t in g th a t m o v e C h a ir p e r s o n . B u t C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t w e d i d a f t e r Sophie… CHAIRPERSON: 10 N o w is th a t – is t h a t t h e m o v e t o s a y d o n o t s h o w v is u a ls o f p e o p le b u r n i n g p r o p e r ty d u r in g p r o te s ts , w h a t is t h a t m o v e t h a t y o u s a y t h e y w e r e in s u p p o r t o f? MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: C h a ir p e r s o n o f n o t s h o w in g s u c h v is u a ls . They were in support O th e r s t h e y w e r e n o t i n s u p p o r t . Th is i s w h a t I a m s u b m i t ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n . O t h e r s t h e y w e r e – w h ic h is n o r m a l C h a ir p e r s o n . O t h e r s th e y w e r e n o t i n s u p p o r t. But a ft e r th is tw o c o l l e a g u e s o f m i n e c a m e t o m e C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k w e c a l l K a i z e r K g a n y a g o w h o is th e s p o k e s p e r s o n o f t h e S A B C . I said K g a n y a g o . N o h e w a s a ls o p a r t y b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e t w o a n d t h e n w e ju s t d is c u s s a n d g iv e m y o w n v ie w w h a t I a m s a y in g i t s h o u l d n o t b e 20 shown. A n d th e n w e a s k K a i z e r t o g o a n d c la r i fy t h e is s u e . I was in f o r m e d y e s te r d a y C h a ir p e r s o n b y N o t h a n d o M a s e k o th a t K a i z e r w e n t o n a i r a n d c l a r if y t h e is s u e . Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u u n d e r s ta n d i t b a s e d o n w h a t y o u t o l d h i m a n d w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d h e c o n v e y e d to th e p u b li c . W e r e y o u to l d th a t h e c la r i fi e d i t o n t h e b a s is th a t t h e d e c i s i o n w a s n o t t o b a n th e s h o w i n g o f Page 72 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 v is u a ls o f v i o l e n t p r o t e s t a n d t h e d e s tr u c t io n o f p r o p e r ty b u t fo r S A B C jo u r n a li s ts n o t t o b e p a r ty to a n y t h i n g w h e r e p e o p l e p la n t o c o m m i t a c r i m e b y b u r n i n g p r o p e r ty a n d t h e m a g r e e i n g to g o t h e r e a n d s h o w those people? W h a t a r e – h o w – w h a t – h o w w a s t h e c la r i fi c a t io n ? W h a t w a s th e c la r i fi c a t io n o r to w h a t e ffe c t w a s i t? M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e c l a r i f ic a t i o n C h a ir p e r s o n w a s K a iz e r s h a ll g o a n d e x p l a i n t h a t w e a r e n o t b a n n in g v i s u a ls t o t a l ly so. W e a r e s a y in g jo u r n a l is ts w i ll b e r e s p o n s i b l e b u t a l s o t h e p h y s i c a li t y C h a ir p e r s o n – I m e a n lik e I d i d e x a m p l e i f s o m e o n e c o m e 10 a n d b u r n th is w e a r e i n s i d e d o n o t s h o w s u c h v is u a l s C h a ir p e r s o n . If y o u a r e g o i n g t o s h o w t h a t v is u a ls m a k e s u r e t h a t th e r e a r e n o p e o p l e in s i d e th e r o o m . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I a m j u s t g iv i n g y o u o n e o f t h e e x a m p l e s C h a ir p e r s o n . I s a id C h a ir p e r s o n to m a k e s u r e t h a t w e d e a l t w i t h t h a t is s u e I w e n t t o Pr e s s C l u b I e x p l a i n t h e s a m e is s u e t h a t K a iz e r h a s e x p l a i n e d t o t h e p u b li c C h a ir p e r s o n . C h a i r p e r s o n th e r e li e f t h a t I a m s e e k i n g to y o u i f I ta lk t h e le g a l t e r m C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e l ie f t h a t I a m s e e k i n g t o y o u i f y o u f in d th a t I w a s w r o n g o n t h e p u b li c mandate. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I s t h e f ir s t r e l ie f C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG: I f y o u fi n d m e I w a s w r o n g o n t h a t o n e th e s e c o n d r e li e f … CHAIRPERSON: I s e e y o u – y o u h a v e h a d q u i te a l o t t o d e a l w it h la w y e r s s o y o u u n d e r s t a n d s o m e o f t h e le g a l l a n g u a g e . Page 73 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s the second r e l ie f C h a ir p e r s o n I a m s a y in g t o y o u C h a i r p e r s o n y o u s h a ll a g r e e w i t h m e t h a t a f t e r t h a t s t a te m e n t w e c l a r i fy is s u e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t o f c o u r s e y o u d o r e m e m b e r t h a t y e s te r d a y I r e a d t o y o u a p a r t o f t h e E d i t o r i a l P o li c y o f t h e S A B C w h e r e t h e – i t w a s m a d e c l e a r t h a t th e p o l ic y o f t h e S A B C is to s h o w v is u a ls o f v io l e n c e i f c e r t a i n c o n d i ti o n s w e r e m e t w h ic h w a s s e t o u t . I think it w a s i f i t w a s t o o s h o w l e g i t i m a te in f o r m a t i o n o r c o n te x t . Yo u r e m e m b e r y o u i n i t ia ll y t h o u g h t th a t th a t w a s i n c o n f l ic t w i th t h e r e q u i r e m e n t th a t 10 s c e n e s o f v i o l e n c e s h o u ld n o t b e s h o w n – s h o u ld n o t b e s h o w n if t h a t w o u ld b e g l a m o u r iz i n g th e v i o le n c e . An d I said to you it might not n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n th a t t h e t w o a r e i n c o n fl ic t. Th e y m i g h t b e g o i n g t h e s a m e r o u t e , s a m e d ir e c t io n b u t o n e m i g h t b e g o i n g fu r t h e r t h a n t h e o th e r, y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o in l o o k i n g a t w h a t t h e p o lic y o f t h e S A B C w a s o n e m u s t lo o k a t t h e – a t a l l th e r e le v a n t i n s tr u m e n ts y o u k n o w a n d t h e n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e b u t c e r t a i n l y y o u h a v e t h a t. remember 20 that u n d e r s t a n d in g I asked was of you conduct th e q u e s t io n that can be B u t y o u a ls o w i ll yesterday said g l a m o u r i z i n g v i o le n c e . W h e r e d o e s o n e d r a w t h e l in e ? to what your amount to A n d y o u d e a lt w i t h th a t . B e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y th e p o l ic i e s p e r m it t h e s h o w i n g o f v is u a ls o f v i o l e n c e b u t th e y s e e m t o h a v e q u a li f i c a ti o n s to s a y y o u m a y d o i t u n d e r t h e s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s . T h e o n e r e f e r s t o n o t p r o m o ti n g v io l e n c e , n o t g la m o u r iz in g v i o l e n c e o r a n y t h i n g – a n y u n l a w f u l c o n d u c t . T h e Page 74 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 o th e r o n e s a y s i n r e l a ti o n t o s c e n e s o f v io l e n c e S A B C ’s p o li c y is t o s h o w t h e m i f t h a t is – if t h a t is r e q u ir e d i n o r d e r t o s h o w le g it i m a t e in f o r m a ti o n o r c o n t e x t . Yo u r e m e m b e r w e d e a lt w i t h th a t . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n I r e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Yo u – C h a i r p e r s o n w h a t I a m a p p e a li n g to y o u C h a ir y o u k n o w I a m n o t g o i n g to d w e l l o n t h e l a w because I am not… 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s n o t m y s p e c i a lis t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o th a t is f in e . MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: I a m d e a l in g w it h t h e w a y I understand the things. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u w il l c o m e to t h a t c o n c lu s i o n C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t m y v ie w C h a ir p e r s o n I w il l 20 s u b m i t th a t t h e p o l ic y o f t h e S A B C i t m u s t b e g u id e d b y t h e R e g u l a t i o n s o f th e A c t a n d a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t w e d e a l t w i th i t w a s th e r e g u la t io n s d e a li n g w i th I C A S A . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o n e m u s t l o o k a t … MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: And then if… C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l o f t h o s e ja . Page 75 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s i n o n e – i n th is b o o k t h e r e is a l s o s a m e m a tt e r s d e a li n g w i t h t h e s a m e m a t t e r t h a t w e a r e d e a li n g with. Yo u w i ll n o t f i n d a n y w h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n i n t h i s A c t I c a l l i t t h e B i b l e o f t h e Br o a d c a s ti n g w h ic h i s S A B C . I t is th e b i b le o f t h e S A B C . Yo u w il l never find Chairperson where the act encourages thatCHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG: p o li c y is i n f o r m e d C h a ir p e r s o n . And I can tell you where this I t i s in f o r m e d b y p r iv a te m e d i a . Ye s p e o p l e d o a p o l ic y C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s i n f o r m e d b y s o m e o f t h e p a r ts o f 10 t h e in f lu e n c e . I t is n o t i n f o r m e d b y w h a t is h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t … M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t a l t h o u g h C h a ir p e r s o n I a g r e e d s o m e o f p e o p le a c t u a ll y t h e y w a n t t o s e e s u c h v is u a l s . S o m e o f t h e p e o p l e . T h i s i s w h e r e I a m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n i f w e d e a l I a g r e e w i t h y o u w h a t y o u h a v e b e e n r a is i n g t h e i s s u e w i th y o u b u t I w a s ju s t s a y in g I f o l lo w t h i s . B u t a ls o in t h e – C h a i r p e r s o n e v e n m y s e l f I d id n o t f o ll o w th is 1 0 0 % . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : 20 I f y o u l o o k my s t a te m e n t a n d t h e n – b e c a u s e I s a id y o u c a n s h o w s u c h v is u a ls b u t h e r e t h e y a r e n o t s a y in g w e s h a ll d o it C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s e e o n e o f th e t h i n g s w h ic h y o u – y o u m a y o r may not appreciate. Yo u r e m e m b e r y e s t e r d a y I p o i n te d o u t t o y o u a t le a s t o n e o r t w o d is t in c t i o n s b e t w e e n l e g is l a ti o n a n d p o l ic y. Yo u s e e a n a c t o f p a r li a m e n t w i ll b e b r o a d e r a n d t h e n i t w i ll s a y r e g u l a ti o n s c a n Page 76 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 b e m a d e u n d e r th a t a c t . T h e r e g u l a ti o n s a r e m a d e i n o r d e r t o t a k e f u r th e r s o m e o f th e th i n g s t h a t a r e in t h e a c t to g o i n to m o r e d e ta ils . A n d w h e n y o u c o m e t o a p o li c y i t – i t is s u p p o s e d t o b e i n l in e w i th th e r e g u la t io n s a n d in l in e w it h t h e a c ts a n d i n li n e w i t h t h e c o n s t i tu t i o n b u t it m i g h t g o t o e v e n g r e a t e r d e t a i l t h a n t h e a c t a n d t h e r e g u l a ti o n . S o y o u c o u l d e a s il y f in d th a t i t s a y s s o m e t h i n g t h a t is t h e p o li c y w h i c h y o u w i ll n o t fi n d i n t h e A c t p r o v i d e d it c a n b e s a id th a t t h e A c t d o e s n o t p r e c l u d e it . D o e s n o t s a y w e s h o u l d n o t h a v e t h i s . I t i s o p e n b u t t h a t is s o m e th i n g th a t - s o I a m ju s t m e n ti o n i n g t h a t w e - w e 10 d o n o t n e c e s s a r ily n e e d t o d w e ll o n i t . Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Thank you very much C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I - I take your word C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 C h a i r j u s t to - in f o r m a t io n h a s j u s t c o m e n o w t h r o u g h M s - C h a ir t h a t th e r u m o u r a b o u t M s S w a n e p o e l a p p a r e n t ly is i n c o r r e c t . T h e y - t h e y h a v e b e e n t o H o m e A ff a i r s a n d i t a p p e a r s t h a t s h e is a l iv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o th e - th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s a r e g o i n g t o - t o p u r s u e th a t l in e . T h a n k y o u . Page 77 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i t i s - i t i s u n fo r t u n a t e t h e y m e n ti o n e d s o m e th i n g lik e th a t … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d … CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e - w e ll m a y b e it is u n f o r t u n a t e t h a t i t w a s m e n ti o n e d p u b l ic a l ly … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t c o u ld h a v e c a u s e d y o u k n o w … 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E m b a r r a s s m e n t, y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fa m i ly m e m b e r s a n d r e l a tiv e s to b e c o n c e r n e d . O h , o k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . S o … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y w i ll tr y a n d m a k e c o n t a c t w i t h h e r ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir th a t i s t h e n t h e e v id e n c e o n th e fir s t 20 s t a te m e n t o f M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d in r e la t io n t o th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S e c o n d s ta t e m e n t t h a t w e th e n w il l - w i ll have to be postponed. CHAIRPERSON: Have to be dealt with … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 78 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n Mr M o t s o e n e n g c o m e s b a c k ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir, y e s t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Mr M o t s o e n e n g w h e n I a s k e d y o u q u e s ti o n s y o u h a d d e a lt w i t h o n e p o in t b u t I th in k y o u w e r e g o i n g t o a n o t h e r p o i n t . I ju s t d o n o t w a n t t o p r e v e n t y o u fr o m s a y i n g s o m e t h in g o n - o n s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o s a y. Yo u n o w s a id b e f o r e y o u g o fu r t h e r le t u s t a lk - t a l k a b o u t t h i s a n d w e to o k q u it e l o n g . I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e th a t y o u - y o u a r e c o v e r e d . Yo u - y o u a r e f i n e o r y o u s t ill w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t 10 w h a t e v e r o t h e r p o in t y o u w a n t e d to - t o m e n ti o n . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . Th e p o i n t t h a t I w a n t t o m a k e is w h e n I d e a lt w i th t h e is s u e o f n e w s p a p e r s w h e n t h e q u e s t i o n a r o s e a b o u t C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d I d o n o t b e li e v e i n r e s e a r c h b e c a u s e y o u s e e I a lw a y s m a k e e x a m p l e s C h a i r p e r s o n a n d p e o p l e w h e n t h e y - t h e y t a l k th e y - th e y t h i n k t h a t I d o n o t b e li e v e i n r e s e a r c h a t a l l. T h e r e is a p o r ti o n t h a t I d o n o t b e l ie v e i n . that you know you see. It is something Yo u c a n n o t d o r e s e a r c h C h a ir p e r s o n . I was s a y in g e x a m p le a c o u n c i ll o r in a c e r t a i n w a r d . Yo u k n o w p e o p le a r e n o t 20 w o r k i n g th e r e . Yo u k n o w th e r e i s n o w a t e r th e r e a n d it is y o u r w a r d a n d y o u k n o w h o w m a n y p e o p le a r e s ta y in g t h e r e a n d y o u k n o w h o w m a n y p e o p l e a r e n o t w o r k in g . W h y d o y o u w a n t r e s e a r c h ? It is o b v io u s . Yo u s e e b e c a u s e I w a n t to c l a r i fy t h i s is s u e o f t h a t I d o n o t … C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . Page 79 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B e l ie v e … . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I n r e s e a r c h C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I m e a n w h e n m e d i c a l is g iv e n t o y o u th e y d o a t e s t b e f o r e th e y c a n d o - g iv e y o u t h a t m e d ic a l b u t something that you see you do not need research Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so - so … M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o I w a n t p e o p l e t o u n d e r s ta n d 10 t h a t I - I a m n o t s a y i n g I d o n o t b e l ie v e in r e s e a r c h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a g a i n s t r e s e a r c h ? M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A t a l l. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. Ja. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Ye s , b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e a lw a y s m is q u o t in g m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O n th is i s s u e o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Research Chairperson. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: O t h e r m a t t e r s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I w a s lo o k i n g t o c o v e r I t h i n k I w il l c o v e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: T h o s e is s u e s w h e n w e d e a lt w i t h t h e - th o s e v id e o c l ip s C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u a ll o w … Page 80 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Those videos to be played. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w ill d e a l w i th t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: If you do n o t a ll o w th e m C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w ill a s k p e r m is s i o n … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: To deal w i th the is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o t h a t is f i n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. B e f o r e w e c o n c l u d e C h a ir … MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f M r M o ts o e n e n g have a … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e d o c u m e n t to p u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Thank you C h a ir for the in d u l g e n c e . R e m e m b e r C h a ir a t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f th e p r o c e e d i n g s t o d a y w e s o u g h t t o h a v e d ir e c t io n s m e t i n te r m s o f t h e s i t ti n g o f t h e C o m m i s s io n Page 81 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 a s to h o w t o h a n d l e t h i s m a l ic i o u s a n d m is l e a d in g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : R e p o r t s fr o m th e m e d i a a n d w e h a v e h a n d l e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I h a v e d r a f te d s o m e th i n g b r i e f … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : ( I n d i s t i n c t) w it h t h e p r o c e s s i f I c a n b e g le a v e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : To h a n d in t h e s a m e s o t h a t w e c a n … CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Th a t w il l a s s is t i n t h e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I n th e p r o c e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I - I p r o p o s e th a t I w il l - I w i ll h a v e - I s h o u l d h a v e a l o o k a t it a n d I k n o w t h a t w e a r e g o i n g - w e a r e d o n e w i t h M r M o ts o e n e n g fo r - f o r n o w b u t h e w i ll c o m e b a c k a t s o m e s ta g e . W h a t I d o n o t k n o w is w h e t h e r y o u w il l s t a y a r o u n d a ft e r w e a r e d o n e 20 b u t I m i g h t n o t b e a b le to h a v e a n a n s w e r a f t e r t h e b r e a k a s t o w h a t I p r o p o s e a f t e r r e a d in g i t . So - but I would let you know at some stage. If you are not a r o u n d I c o u l d s e n d w o r d t h r o u g h t h e l e g a l t e a m w h a t I p r o p o s e to d o . S o it m a y b e t h a t I m i g h t d e c i d e to s a y s o m e t h i n g b e f o r e t h e e n d o f t h e d a y. I t m a y b e t h a t I m i g h t d e c i d e to s a y s o m e th i n g t o m o r r o w. I a m n o t Page 82 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 s u r e . W o u ld t h a t b e f in e w i t h y o u ? M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : C h a ir w h il s t I t a k e c o g n is a n c e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : A n d g u i d a n c e f r o m y o u b u t I b e li e v e t h i s i s i m p e r a t iv e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : A n d o f p a r a m o u n t i m p o r t a n c e t h a t i t b e d e a l t w i t h s w i f tl y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W h y I s a y s s o b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : It is in te r ms of S e c ti o n 5 of the C o m m i s s i o n ’s A c t h in d e r in g a n d o b s t r u c t in g th e p r o g r e s s o f t h i s Commission … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Because reme mber that is why if you see M r M o ts o e n e n g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : 20 H e i s n o w b e in g a p p r e h e n s iv e a n d a n x io u s a n d h e k e e p s o n g o i n g b a c k to s o m e is s u e s b e c a u s e o f … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h e w a y t h e y a r e b e in g p o r tr a y e d in th e media. I mean he is human. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W h il s t w e - w e h a v e c o n f i d e n c e i n y o u C h a ir Page 83 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t h a t o b v i o u s l y g o in g t o c l o s e y o u r e a r s t o w h a t t h e m e d i a i s s a y i n g about him … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : B u t h e c a n n o t c l o s e h is e a r s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : H e c a n n o t c l o s e h is e y e s t o t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : B e c a u s e h e is h u m a n a n d h e is … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : The person who is a ff e c t e d by th e s e m a lic i o u s r e p o r ts . M o r e s o p a r ti c u la r fr o m th e D a il y M a v e r i c k … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : C h a ir. Th a t i s s u e n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w it h . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W e a r e n o t s a y in g t h a t w e p r e s c r ib e d t h e r ig h ts o f t h e m e d i a … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I n te r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 6 o f … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Th e C o n s t i tu t io n Fr e e d o m o f Ex p r e s s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h e y h a v e th e fr e e d o m o f e x p r e s s io n b u t w h a t n o w t h a t - w h a t t h e y a r e d o in g is t h a t t h e y a r e n o w s t u b b o r n ly e m b a r k in g o n c o n c lu s i o n s o f fa c ts w h ic h I b e li e v e i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 84 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I t i s - i t is h i n d e r s t h e p r o j e c t - th e - I m e a n t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n b u t I s ta n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : G u id e d b y y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e I w a s s a y in g w h a t I w a s s a y i n g b e c a u s e I have not read the … M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e d o c u m e n t y o u h a v e d r a f t e d . It m a y b e t h a t w h e n I h a v e r e a d i t I fe e l th a t I a m a b l e t o d o s o m e th i n g i m m e d ia t e l y. I t m a y 10 b e th a t a f t e r I h a v e r e a d i t I f e e l th a t m a y b e c e r t a i n t h i n g s m u s t b e c h e c k e d b e f o r e I c a n s a y a n y t h i n g a n d t h e r e f o r e w h a te v e r I m i g h t d o m i g h t d e l a y u n t il th o s e t h i n g s h a v e b e e n c h e c k e d . S o t h a t is th e o n ly r e a s o n - r e a s o n I w a s s a y in g w e ll m a y b e I m i g h t b e a b l e to d e a l w i t h i t i m m e d i a t e ly m a y b e l a t e r i n th e d a y m a y b e t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . S o t h a t i s t h e o n ly - b u t I - I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t y o u - y o u h a v e s a i d i t - i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d i f p o s s i b le l ik e t o b e d e a lt w i t h u r g e n tl y. I h a v e h e a r d t h a t. S o I w il l l o o k a t i t . I j u s t d o n o t w a n t t o p r o m is e y o u a n y t h in g b e f o r e I r e a d h e r e . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : 20 Tr u e C h a ir. Can I then pray to you Chair t h a t i f w e c a n a f t e r t e a ju s t - I a m n o t t r y i n g to p u t y o u u n d e r p r e s s u r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : To d e a l w i t h th is i s s u e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : To s o r t o f b r ie fl y a d d r e s s y o u s t il l o n t h i s Page 85 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 aspect … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : B e fo r e y o u c a n m a k e a c o n c l u s i v e o n th is is s u e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y. N o le t u s - le t u s d o t h a t th e n w h e n w e c o m e b a c k fr o m te a . M R M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Al r i g h t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m a b o u t to e x c u s e M r M o ts o e n e n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: M r M o t s o e n e n g th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r c o m in g to g iv e e v id e n c e t o th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t o s h a r e y o u r e x p e r ie n c e s a t SABC as you have done. The arrangements are that you have not dealt w i t h e v e r y t h i n g th a t y o u s h o u l d d e a l w i th . A r r a n g e m e n ts w i ll b e m a d e f o r y o u t o c o m e b a c k a n d d e a l w i th m a t t e r s th a t y o u h a v e n o t d e a l t w it h t o d a y a n d i n t h e i n t e r i m w h a t e v e r d o c u m e n ts o r in f o r m a t io n th a t w e 20 h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t o v e r t h e p a s t t w o a n d a h a l f d a y s th a t m i g h t n o t b e a t h a n d w h ic h is i m p o r t a n t f o r th e C o m m i s s io n y o u w i ll a s s is t i n whatever way to make sure it can be found. I d o r e m e m b e r t h a t I t h in k y o u w e r e r e f e r r e d t o s o m e m i n u t e s o f b o a r d m e e ti n g s y e s t e r d a y a n d y o u w il l g iv e i n f o r m a ti o n t o t h e le g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m is s i o n s o t h a t t h e y c a n a p p r o a c h th e S A B w i t h a v i e w Page 86 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t o fi n d i n g t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n a n d a n y o t h e r i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t m a y b e r e l e v a n t. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Thank you very much C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I a m r e a d y C h a ir p e r s o n to a s s is t t h e C o m m i s s io n . I a m a ls o r e a d y C h a ir p e r s o n to w e lc o m e y o u r fi n d i n g s a t th e e n d o f t h e m a t t e r b e c a u s e t h is is th e fir s t ti m e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e I w a s tr e a t e d fa ir l y w i t h r e s p e c t . 10 C h a ir p e r s o n because you d o i n v e s ti g a ti o n y o u Ev e n y o u r t e a m do not come to c o n c l u s i o n b e f o r e t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t t h e p e r s o n is g u i l ty lik e t h e S I U is d o in g C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I w a n t to e m p h a s i s e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e a s o n w h y th e y w r i t e m e t h a t l e t t e r is b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a w a r e t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o b e c a l le d b y th e C o m m i s s i o n . T h e y h a v e c o m e t o th e c o n c l u s i o n n o t d o i n g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . I a m in c o u r t b u t t h e y t h e m s e lv e s C h a i r p e r s o n t h e y d id n o t fo ll o w t h e p r o c e s s . T h e y a b u s e d t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e S I U C h a ir p e r s o n . I t h i n k i t is a s e r i o u s m a t t e r fr o m w h e r e I a m s i t t in g C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I w a n t t o a p p e a l to t h e C o m m is s i o n C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e if y o u a r e g o i n g t o d e a l 20 w i t h a ll th is p r o b le m s y o u c a n n o t l e a v e S I U o u ts id e e s p e c i a l ly w h e n y o u h a v e e v id e n c e i n fr o n t s a y i n g b u t t h is m a n t h a t y o u h a v e t a k e n to c o u r t h e i s n o t p a r t o f t h is . H e r e i s th e a ff id a v i t . Th is p e o p l e t h e y r e c u s e t h e ms e lv e s . T h e s a m e w i t h t h e f o r m e r P u b lic P r o t e c t o r b e c a u s e n o o n e is a b o v e th e la w C h a i r p e r s o n . I w i ll a p p e a l C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y m u s t c o m e in t h i s Page 87 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C o m m i s s i o n a n d d e a l w i th th e s e is s u e s t h a t w h y d i d t h e y m is l e a d people. W h y t h e y a r e a b u s i n g t h e p o w e r w h e n t h e f a c t s a r e th e r e C h a ir p e r s o n ? Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d y o u a r e e x c u s e d f o r n o w. T h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y w e t a k e t h e te a … ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e a f e w m i n u te s b e fo r e q u a r t e r p a s t b u t I th i n k w e c a n ta k e t h e t e a b r e a k n o w … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. N o w u n t il … 10 CHAIRPERSON: And resume at half past as normal? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w e w il l t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k n o w a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t 11 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : M s N o r m a n w e n e e d t o d e a l w i t h t h e r e q u e s t fr o m M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s c o u n s e l . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. The time that I have had is just not enough . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: M e t o o C h a ir. Page 88 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 CHAIRPERSON: To lo o k a t t h i s n u m b e r o n e , n u m b e r t w o I w a s n o t a s k in g fo r d r a ft i n g w h a t I w o u ld s a y, I w a s a s k in g fo r w h a t th e c o m p la i n t is a n d w h a t t h e f a c t u a l b a s i s o f th e c o m p la i n t is , w h o s a id w h a t a n d w h a t t h e p o s it i o n i s a n d w h a t t h e c o m p l a i n t is a b o u t t h a t , s o t h a t I c o u l d s e e a n d m a k e u p my o w n m i n d w h e t h e r I n e e d e d to d o s o m e t h i n g a n d i f s o w h a t i t is t h a t w o u l d b e a p p r o p r i a t e , s o I m i g h t n o t h a v e m a d e my s e l f c l e a r. S o – b u t y o u w a n t e d to s a y s o m e t h in g b e f o r e I h e a r M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s c o u n s e l . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir I h a v e n o t h a d ti m e a t a ll to c o n s i d e r i t a n d a ls o b e c a u s e t h e c o m p l a i n t it s e l f r e la t e s t o c e r ta in m e d i a a r tic l e s , w h i c h a r e n o t a t t a c h e d t o t h a t d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o w i t ’s d i ff ic u l t to l o o k i n t o t h e c o n te x t a n d a p p r e c i a t e w h e r e t h e c o m p l a i n t a c t u a lly a r is e s fr o m , f o r th a t r e a s o n C h a ir I w o u l d s u g g e s t i t ’s r e a lly a m a t t e r t h a t s h o u ld b e d e a l t w i t h a t s o m e o th e r ti m e n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Thank you. A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir o r t h e i n d u l g e n c e , I f e e l a b i t c o n s tr a i n e d w i t h t h is i s s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Yo u k n o w w h y C h a ir I fe e l a b it c o n s tr a i n e d a b o u t t h is b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r – b e c a u s e I w e n t t h r o u g h t h e r u l e s a n d I a ls o w e n t th r o u g h th e C o m m i s s i o n s A c t b e c a u s e th e s e a r e t h e Page 89 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 e m p o w e r in g p r o v i s i o n s i n t h e d e te r m i n a ti o n o f is s u e s b e f o r e t h i s Commission. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h e A c t , S e c t io n f iv e g iv e s p r o v is io n o f w h a t h a p p e n s i f th e r e is a h i n d r a n c e o r o b s tr u c ti o n o f t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n . I t h i n k a t t h e ti m e w h e n th e A c t w a s [i n d i s t i n c t ] t h e y d i d n o t e n v is a g e w h e r e n e w s p a p e r s a n d m e d i a c a n a c t u a ll y o b s tr u c t t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n b y mi s l e a d i n g a n e g a t iv e s to r i e s a b o u t t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d th a t ’s o n e o f t h e is s u e s w h i c h i s a l s o – if 10 y o u lo o k a t th e r u l e s i t ’s a b s e n t h o w d o w e d e a l w i t h s u c h a n i s s u e . S o it ’s e i t h e r w e d o s u c h a n i s s u e e i t h e r in te r m s o r R u l e 11 w h e r e s u b s t a n t iv e a p p li c a t io n c a n b e m a d e w it h t h e C o m m i s s io n o n a n o t ic e o f m o t io n w i th t h e fa c ts a n d t h e d i s p u t e d f a c ts a n d t h e a t ta c h m e n t s lik e w h a t M is s N o r m a n i s a ll u d i n g t o o r w e c a n d e a l w it h it i n t e r m s o f R u l e 1 2 , w h e r e y o u a s t h e C h a ir c a n g iv e d i r e c t io n s a s t o h o w – i f s u c h a n is s u e a r is e s h o w d o w e d e a l w i t h i t . L i k e I s a id C h a ir, I’ m i n y o u r h a n d s b e c a u s e w e d o n ’ t w a n t t o … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I ’l l te ll y o u w h a t , I m e a n a t t h e m o m e n t i t ’s ju s t a q u e s t io n o f n o t h a v in g e n o u g h t i m e t o l o o k a t th is , I h a v e h a d a l o o k 20 b u t I h a v e n ’ t fi n i s h e d l o o k in g a t i t b u t I h a v e m a d e – s o m e o f t h e o b s e r v a t i o n s th a t I’ v e m e n t i o n e d . I t h i n k t h e o n e w h e r e i n w h ic h i t c a n b e d e a l t w it h is t h a t I w il l h a v e n o p r o b l e m i f M r M o t s o e n e n g w i s h e s t o is s u e a m e d i a s t a t e m e n t th a t c l a r i f ie s w h a t e v e r i t i s t h a t th e m e d ia m i g h t h a v e m i s u n d e r s to o d f r o m h is p a r t , j u s t s o t h a t fr o m t h e p o i n t o f v ie w o f th e p u b lic h e ’s a b le t o p o i n t o u t i f th e m e d i a is s a y in g t h i n g s Page 90 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 a b o u t h i m t h a t a r e n o t t r u e o r d o n o t r e fl e c t a c c u r a t e ly w h a t h e h a s t e s ti fi e d i n t h e C o m m is s i o n . N o w i f h e d o e s th a t i t m a y b e th a t th e r e m i g h t b e n o n e e d f o r t h e C o m m i s s io n t o d o a n y t h i n g it s e l f b u t i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n m i g h t d e c id e t h a t , t h a t n o tw i th s t a n d i n g i t w i ll d o s o m e t h i n g b u t i t w o u l d h e l p t o b a l a n c e t h e in t e r e s t b e c a u s e h is in t e r e s t a n d t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s i n t e r e s t b e c a u s e I’ m n o t g o i n g to is s u e a n y th in g o r s a y a n y t h i n g u n t il I h a v e g o t a l l t h e f a c ts p r o p e r l y a n d t h e c o n c e r n n o w is s i m p ly t h a t I d o n ’ t s e e m t o h a v e e v e r y t h i n g t h a t I n e e d . S o t h e o n e o p ti o n o r n o w is s i m p ly t h a t y o u – t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h i s 10 d o c u m e n t y o u g a v e m e m i g h t n o t h a v e a d d r e s s e d t h is a n d I c a n ’ t s a y t h a t i t d o e s n ’ t b e c a u s e I d i d n ’ t fi n is h r e a d i n g it . To t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t m i g h t n o t a d d r e s s w h a t I ’ m l o o k in g fo r, y o u c o u ld l a t e r o n s e n d a d o c u m e n t t h a t a d d r e s s e s w h a t I ’ m l o o k i n g f o r. W h a t I ’ m l o o k i n g f o r is , a d o c u m e n t t h a t s a y s A , B a n d C d i d th e f o ll o w i n g o n th a t d a y in t h a t m e d i a o r w h a t e v e r, th is w a s w r o n g b e c a u s e o f A , B , C , D a n d i t – I w o u ld l ik e t h e C o m m i s s i o n to d o A , B , C , D a b o u t i t s o I c a n s e e w h a t w a s – w h a t is s a i d t o h a v e b e e n d o n e , w h a t t h e b a s is o f t h e c o n c e r n is a n d th e n I c a n t h e n ta k e it fr o m t h e r e . S o t h a t ’s w h a t I ’ m lo o k in g fo r, a t t h is s t a g e I’ m n o t l o o k in g a t i t a s b e i n g a s u b s t a n t iv e a p p l ic a t i o n 20 n e c e s s a r i ly, I j u s t w a n t a d o c u m e n t , w h e th e r i t ’s in t h e f o r m o f a n o t e , a m e m o o r a l e t te r b u t s o m e t h i n g t h a t w il l g iv e m e a f u ll p ic t u r e s o t h a t if I m a k e a n y – i f I s a y a n y th in g I k n o w t h a t I s a y i t fr o m a n i n f o r m e d p o s i ti o n . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, i f y o u l o o k a t t h e b r ie f s u b m is s io n s I ’v e m a d e w e ’v e a ll u d e d t o t h a t. Page 91 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W e ’ v e i d e n ti fi e d th e m e d i a h o u s e s , t h e D a il y M a v e r ic k , th e r e p o r t e r is M a r i a n n e T h a m m , w e ’v e id e n ti fi e d th e is s u e s th e a r ti c l e a n d e v e n h a v e a f o o tn o t e a n d w h ic h d a t e th a t Ac t w a s b e e n a c c e s s e d w h ic h w a s to d a y a n d w e ’ v e e v e n j u s t q u o t e d s o m e o f t h e is s u e s i n t h e a r tic l e to a s s is t . W h a t w e d i d n o t d o w a s to p r i n t th e a r ti c l e b u t w e j u s t t h o u g h t s in c e w e ’v e g i v e n p r o o f w h e r e th e a r t ic l e is a c c e s s i b l e o n li n e th a t c a n b e d o n e a n d i n te r m s o f p a r a g r a p h 1 6 w e t h e n r e q u e s t w h a t w e i n t e n d th e C o m m i s s i o n t o d o w i t h t h i s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV MACGREGOR K U FA : If you f e e l t h a t is not enough to s u b s t a n t ia t e th e c o m p la i n t o r t h e s u b m is s io n s b e fo r e t h i s i n q u ir y w e a r e p r e p a r e d t o a r g u m e n t o r s u p p l e m e n t th a t a n d t h e n o n t h e is s u e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th a t ’s fi n e a s I s a i d I h a v e n ’ t r e a d t h e w h o l e o f i t s o i f y o u - i f y o u t h i n k t h a t o n c e I’v e h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d t h e w h o l e d o c u m e n t I s h o u ld b e a b l e to fi n d e v e r y th i n g t h a t I’ m l o o k i n g fo r, th a t ’s fi n e a n d I’ m q u i t e h a p p y th a t i f , o n c e I’ v e h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d th e w h o le d o c u m e n t , i f I f e e l t h a t I n e e d s o m e m o r e i n fo r m a t i o n t h e n t h e 20 C o m m i s s i o n w i ll c o m m u n i c a t e w i th y o u a n d th e n y o u c a n s u p p le m e n t that. A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d th e n o n t h is s e c o n d is s u e w h ic h y o u s u g g e s t e d fr o m th e o n s e t t h a t w h e th e r Mr M o ts o e n e n g s h o u l d g i v e a m e d i a s ta t e m e n t, w h il s t i t ’s a n o b le i d e a b u t w e h a v e c h a l le n g e s w i t h t h a t b e c a u s e e v e r y t i m e t h e n e w s p a p e r s r e p o r t Page 92 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 s o m e t h i n g n e g a tiv e a b o u t h i m , t h e n h e a lw a y s h a s to is s u e a m e d ia s t a te m e n t a n d r e m e m b e r w i th , a lr e a d y t h e c u r r e n t n a r r a tiv e a g a i n s t M r M o ts o e n e n g w h ic h m e d i a is g o i n g to g iv e h i m t h a t p l a t f o r m o r t h e ti m e t o d o th a t . S o i t b e c o m e s a p ie c e m e a l f a s h i o n th a t w h e n e v e r s o m e t h i n g i s – t h a t’s w h y I’ m s a y in g w e n e e d a n a ll e n c o m p a s s in g d ir e c t io n n o t o n ly d ir e c te d a t t h e D a ily M a v e r ic k b u t d ir e c t e d a t a ll n e w s p a p e r s , w e ’r e n o t s a y i n g w e ’ r e g a g g i n g t h e m w e d o n ’ t w a n t t o g a g t h e m , a ll w e a r e s a y i n g is t h a t le t th e r e b e r e s p o n s i b l e r e p o r ti n g . R e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s th e is s u e o f t h e [i n d i s t in c t ] b u s i n e s s s c h o o l w h e r e 10 a l o t o f m e d ia a ls o m is c o n s tr u e d w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d b e fo r e t h i s Commission. W e c a n n o t k e e p o n g o in g a t t h a t r a t e b e c a u s e i t r e a l ly d o e s n o t a ll g o w e ll fo r th e w o r k a n d t h e t a s k a t h a n d o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n t h a t ’s w h y w e ’r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e o r d e r is n o t o n l y d i r e c t e d a t t h e D a i ly M a v e r ic k b u t i t is d ir e c te d a t a l l m e d i a p r a c t i ti o n e r s t o e n s u r e t h a t – w e ’r e n o t s a y i n g t h e y s h o u l d n ’ t r e p o r t a b o u t t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m is s i o n b e c a u s e i t is b e s t t h a t t h e y a c t u a ll y r e p o r t b u t l e t t h e m n o t m a k e c o n c l u s i o n , li k e t h e c o n c lu s i o n t h a t t h e D a il y M a v e r ic k h a s m a d e t h a t M r M o t s o e n e n g m a d e a r u i n i n g o f t h e f in a n c i a ls o f th e S A B C t o 3 . 2 b il li o n w h ic h is n o t tr u e , s o , I m e a n I d o n ’ t w a n t t o v e n t il a t e 20 f u r th e r i s s u e s b u t I’ m j u s t g iv i n g s o m e – a f e w h i g h l ig h ts ju s t t o a s s i s t. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y o u s e e I a m p r e s e n tl y n o t c o n t e m p l a t i n g is s u in g d ir e c t io n s a s s u c h , I ’ m c o n t e m p la t in g s a y i n g s o m e t h i n g to th e m e d i a if a p r o p e r c a s e is m a d e o u t b u t i f o n e is ta l k in g a b o u t is s u i n g d ir e c ti o n s t h a t is w h e n i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y t o l o o k a t a s u b s t a n t iv e a p p li c a t io n a n d s o o n , s o l e t m e h a v e a c h a n c e to r e a d i t a n d t h e n y o u w i ll b e Page 93 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 in f o r m e d i n o n e w a y o r a n o th e r w h e th e r I n e e d a n y t h i n g f u r th e r b e f o r e o n e c a n ta k e i t fu r t h e r b u t a s I s a y i t’s u p t o M r M o ts o e n e n g w h a t I s o u g h t a d d r e s s b y w a y o f t h a t s u g g e s t io n is w h e r e h e f e e ls t h a t s o m e t h i n g n e e d s t o b e p u t o u t i n t h e p u b lic d o m a in w i t h o u t d e l a y t h a t c o r r e c t s w h a t e v e r t h e m e d ia m i g h t h a v e s a i d , t h a t w h ic h is n o t c o r r e c t a n d I’ m s a y i n g a t th is s t a g e , u n ti l I ’v e r e a d t h is p r o p e r ly a n d a p p l i e d m y m i n d I c a n ’t p r o m is e t h a t I c a n d o – w e c a n d o t h a t w i th in t h e ti m e h e h a s i n m in d . S o t h a t w a s – it w a s m e a n t t o a d d r e s s th a t b u t i f h e s a y s , l o o k w e w il l w a i t a s s o o n a s t h e C o m m i s s io n i n d ic a te s w h e t h e r it 10 w i ll b e a b l e to d o s o m e t h i n g o r i t w a n t s f u r th e r i n fo r m a t i o n , w e w i ll c o o p e r a t e , t h a t ’s f in e . A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : O k a y I t h i n k w e ’ ll w a i t fo r [ i n d is ti n c t ] C h a ir thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . M i s s N o r m a n ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir, t h e n e x t w i t n e s s C h a ir is M r L a w r e n c e R o y K r u g e r, C h a ir t h a t w i ll b e in E x h i b i t C C 2 0 , I’ v e a s k e d th e r e g i s tr a r to p l a c e i t b e f o r e y o u C h a ir, it ’s E x h ib i t 2 0 to 24. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s I ’v e g o t i t . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th is w i t n e s s C h a ir t a lk s to t h e D T T project. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u , if y o u a r e s a ti s f i e d m a y th e w i t n e s s th e n b e s w o r n i n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n . Page 94 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 REGISTRAR: P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : REGISTRAR: L a w r e n c e R o y K r u g e r. D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t i o n t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : REGISTRAR: No. D o y o u c o n s i d e r th e o a th t o b e b i n d i n g o n y o u r conscience? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : REGISTRAR: 10 Ye s . D o y o u s w e a r t h a t th e e v id e n c e y o u g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u th , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t t h e t r u th . I f s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : So help me God. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : ( d u ly s w o r n , s t a t e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Kr u g e r c o u l d y o u p l e a s e , th e r e is a fi le i n f r o n t o f y o u m a r k e d C C 2 0 t o 2 4 o n t h e s p i n e , a n d i f y o u t u r n to p a g e o n e o f th a t fil e th a t is a s ta t e m e n t fr o m y o u , is that correct? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : 20 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t j a . T h a n k y o u a n d th e n i f y o u tu r n to p a g e 13. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ja. Is that your signature that appears on there? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a t is j a . Page 95 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h a t y o u s i g n e d th a t s t a t e m e n t o n th e 21st of August 2019? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Correct. A n d t h a t t h e c o n te n ts o f t h i s s ta t e m e n t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Tr u e . Ye s th a n k y o u , is i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u w e r e a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s o f t h e C o m m is s i o n to d e a l w i t h y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts o n t h e m i g r a ti o n p r o j e c t b e t w e e n th e S A B C a n d t h e 10 D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . W e r e y o u i n v o lv e d i n th a t p r o je c t? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I was ja. Ye s t h a n k y o u , b u t b e f o r e w e c o n t in u e , y o u h a d a s k e d m e t h a t y o u w o u ld li k e t o h a v e a n o p e n i n g s t a t e m e n t a b o u t w h a t y o u d o a n d h o w d o e s t h a t t a l ly w i t h y o u r s t a t e m e n t ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ja. M a y h e t h e n b e a l l o w e d C h a ir t o d o th a t ? Ye s . M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a n k y o u , m y n a m e is R o y Kr u g e r I’ v e b e e n w o r k i n g i n th e t e l e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s a n d b r o a d c a s ti n g i n d u s t r y f o r m o r e t h a n 4 0 y e a r s . I ’v e w o r k e d f o r b ig c o m p a n i e s l ik e D i m e n s i o n D a t a , B u s i n e s s C o n n e c t io n i n c o u n t r i e s li k e N ig e r ia , U g a n d a , M a la w i , S ir r e a L e o n e a n d I’ m c u r r e n tl y b a s e d i n M a p u t o w h e r e I ’ m t h e p r o j e c t m a n a g e r fo r r o l li n g o u t t h e e x a c t s a m e p r o je c t w e ’v e d o n e i n – tr y in g t o Page 96 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 d o i n S o u t h A fr ic a w i t h t h e b r o a d c a s ti n g d i g i t a l m i g r a t io n . Th e y ’v e c u r r e n tly b e e n g o i n g f o r 1 8 m o n t h s , I c a n ’t r e v e a l a ll th e i r in f o r m a t io n b u t s u ffic e t o s a y t h a t th e p r o je c t w i ll b e c o m p l e t e d b y D e c e m b e r, i t t o o k t w o y e a r s . In S o u th A fr ic a I ’ m n o t s u r e o f th e e x a c t s ta r t d a t e b u t is w a s s o m e th in g a r o u n d 2 0 0 4 / 2 0 0 5 a n d u n t il t o d a y i t’s s t il l n o t c o m p le t e f o r o n e s i m p l e f a c t . N o w b e s id e s th e p o l ic ie s , I’ m t a lk i n g a s a n e n g i n e e r a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t t h e p o l it ic s is b e h i n d t h i s b u t in m y o p i n i o n th e r e ’s o n e s i m p le fa c t w h y w e ’r e n o t c o m p le t e a n d th a t is a s y s te m c a ll e d s e t t o p b o x c o n tr o l . N o w i n t h e b r o a d c a s t in g w o r ld th e r e 10 is n o s u c h t e r m a s s e t t o p b o x c o n tr o l , it i s s o m e th in g th a t w a s p u t t o g e th e r in S o u t h A f r ic a . T h e a c t u a l e q u i p m e n t u s e d t o d o s e t to p b o x c o n tr o l i s c a l le d a c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m . I n s i m p l e t e r m s i t ’s a c o m p u te r w i th a lo t o f s o ft w a r e a n d a l o t o f c a p a b i li t ie s , y o u c a n e i t h e r implement some of them or all of them. In January 2012 I approached a p e r s o n n e l c o m p a n y t o fi n d e m p lo y m e n t a n d I w a s d ir e c t e d t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s a n d t h r o u g h a n in t e r v ie w in g p r o c e s s I w a s a p p o i n te d a s th e t e c h n ic a l a d v i s o r t o t h e t h e n M i n i s t e r, D i n a P u l e a s a te c h n i c a l a d v is o r o n th e b r o a d c a s t in g a n d o n t h e ir d a t a s i d e , o n t h e b r o a d b a n d s id e a n d s o o n a f t e r I ’d s t a r t e d , w i th in tw o o r th r e e 20 w e e k s I ’d g o n e t h r o u g h a l o t o f d o c u m e n t s to m a k e m y s e l f a u f e i t w i th w h a t ’s h a p p e n in g . I f o u n d t h a t t h e S A B C h a d b e e n o u t o n a t e n d e r, a n o p e n t e n d e r t o r e q u e s t a c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m w h i c h , a s I s a y in S o u th A f r ic a t h e y t e r m e d i t a s e t t o p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m a n d th e y h a d n ’t a p p o i n t e d a n y b o d y b e c a u s e i t s e e m e d t o b e – i t w a s a b i t o f i n f i g h t in g o n w h o w o u l d p a y fo r t h i s t h in g , w o u l d i t b e th e p r i v a t e b r o a d c a s te r Page 97 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 s u c h a s E - T V a n d M u l ti c h o i c e a n d t h e S A B C o r w o u ld i t ju s t b e t h e S A B C . S o t h e t e n d e r w a s n ’ t a d ju d ic a t e d b u t o n fu r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n m y t a s k s I c a m e a c r o s s S E N T E C H w h ic h is th e g o v e r n m e n t’s s i g n a l d is t r i b u t o r f o r T V a n d b r o a d c a s ti n g r a d i o s ig n a l s a n d I f o u n d t h a t t h e y a lr e a d y h a d a c o n d i t io n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m i n p l a c e . Th e y h a d e n g i n e e r s tr a i n e d o n t h e s y s t e m , t h e y h a d t h e p r o d u c t u p a n d r u n n i n g a n d t h e r e a s o n t h e y h a d it w a s th a t , fr o m my r e a d i n g s is t h a t t w o o r t h r e e y e a r s p r i o r t o t h a t S E N T E C H h a d b e e n s e n d i n g o u t s ig n a ls v ia s a t e lli t e t o ta ll y u n e n c r y p t e d , w h i c h m e a n t t h a t c i t iz e n s , f o r e x a m p l e in B o t s w a n a w e r e 10 buying set top box that you want, a set top box is a decoder that you u s e t o r e c e iv e t h e s i g n a ls a n d i n B o t s w a n a t h e y w e r e w a tc h i n g S A B C 1 , 2 , 3 a n d E - T V fo r, in in v e r t e d c o m m a s , f o r f r e e . Government said th is can’t happen what about The Botswana our own local b r o a d c a s t in g a n d th e y to o k a c ti o n a g a i n s t S E N T E C H a n d f r o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d a n d d o c u m e n ts I’ v e r e a d , S E N T E C H lo s t t h e c a s e a n d t h e y h a d t o p a y a c e r ta in a m o u n t o f m o n e y, m i lli o n s o r r a n d to c o m p e n s a te t h e B o ts w a n a G o v e r n m e n t a n d th e y t h e n w e r e i n s tr u c t e d t o p u t i n a c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m a n d fu ll y e n c r y p t a ll s i g n a ls w h ic h t h e y d i d . CHAIRPERSON: 20 J u s t o n e s e c o n d , I ’ m s o r r y to i n te r r u p t y o u , B o ts w a n a c i tiz e n s a n d r e s id e n t s w e r e w a tc h i n g S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 fo r fr e e in B o t s w a n a f o r fr e e b e c a u s e S E N T E C H h a d d o n e w h a t ? M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S E N T E C H h a d tr a n s m it t e d t h e S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 T V s ig n a ls v ia s a t e l li t e . Now when you send a signal via s a t e ll i te i t c o v e r s a h u g e g e o g r a p h ic a l a r e a , ty p i c a ll y t h e w h o l e o f A fr ic a s o a n u m b e r o f - I suppose you can call them entrepreneurs Page 98 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 f o u n d t h a t li s te n , w e c a n s e ll y o u a s e t t o p b o x a n d y o u c a n p ic k u p S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 f o r fr e e . CHAIRPERSON: O h b u t I t h i n w h a t I ’ m lo o k i n g fo r is to e s t a b lis h w h e t h e r t h i s w a s a c a s e w h e r e S E N T E C H h a d d e li b e r a t e l y w a n t e d to b e n e fi t B o t s w a n a c it iz e n s in s o m e w a y, m a y b e fo r s o m e f e e o r w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e s i m p l y tr y i n g to d o w h a t t h e y w e r e r e q u ir e d t o d o i n S o u t h A fr ic a f o r t h e S o u th A f r i c a n c i ti z e n s w i t h i n t h e b o r d e r s o f S o u t h A fr ic a b u t t e c h n o l o g i c a ll y p e o p le in B o ts w a n a c o u l d a c tu a l ly a c c e s s t h e s a m e b e n e fi ts w i t h o u t S E N T E C H h a v i n g i n te n d e d t h a t, t h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n ? 10 MR LAW R E N C E ROY KRUGER: No I don’t think SENTECH d e li b e r a t e ly i n te n d e d f o r t h e m to g e t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n , I t h i n k i t w a s m a y b e , e i t h e r a la c k o f m o n e y o r a l a c k o f k n o w le d g e th a t l e d S E N T E C H t o s e n d t h e s i g n a l s w i th o u t e n c r y p ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o i t w a s ju s t a n o p e n s i g n a l w h ic h m e a n t y o u c o u l d b u y s e t t o p b o x o ff a n y s t r e e t m a r k e t a n d i t w o u ld p i c k u p t h e s ig n a l b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o e n c r y p ti o n i t w a s a n o p e n - e n d e d s ig n a l . CHAIRPERSON: 20 O h th e y w o u l d h a v e n e e d e d t h e r e t o b e e n c r y p ti o n i n o r d e r f o r th e B o ts w a n a c i tiz e n s n o t to b e a b l e to a c c e s s i t ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : CHAIRPERSON: Correct. O k a y a li g h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o u ld y o u j u s t e x p a n d o n th a t e n c r y p ti o n is s u e b e c a u s e i t b e c o m e s a b i g g e r is s u e l a te r w h e t h e r th e S o u t h A fr ic a n p o lic ie s a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e m a s a Page 99 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t e c h n ic a l a d v is o r a t t h e t i m e , p r o v i d e d fo r e n c r y p ti o n a n d w h e t h e r w h a t u l ti m a t e ly h a p p e n e d in t h e e n d w a s n o n - e n c r y p t i o n . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : CHAIRPERSON: W h e n I j o i n e d in … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . S o r r y b e f o r e y o u s a y s o I k n o w t h a t I i n t e r r u p te d y o u w h il e y o u w e r e o n a c e r t a i n l i n e , s o M is s N o r m a n i s a s k i n g y o u t h a t q u e s t io n n o w th e r e ’s s o m e th i n g t o s t o p y o u o n t h a t b u t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e d o n ’ t f o r g e t t h is p a r t , j u s t i n c a s e t h e r e w a s s ti ll s o m e th i n g i m p o r t a n t y o u w a n t e d m e to k n o w, I ju s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u d o n ’t f o r g e t a b o u t t h a t o n e . 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Okay no what I wanted you to know C h a ir i s t h a t I ’v e g o t a l o t o f k n o w l e d g e in t h is b u s i n e s s a n d I a m b a s e d in M a p u t o r ig h t n o w, I’ m d o i n g th is p r o je c t s i m i la r t o h e r e a n d t h a t o u r – i n m y o p in i o n t h e o n ly th i n g h o l d i n g u p t h e r o ll- o u t o f t h e b r o a d c a s t in g d i g it a l m i g r a t io n i n S o u th A fr ic a , e v e n t o d a y is t h i s q u e s t io n a b o u t e n c r y p ti o n a n d s e t t o p b o x c o n tr o l a n d e v e n i n p l a c e s lik e M o z a m b iq u e th e y u s e fu ll c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s , e n c r y p ti o n / s e t t o p b o x c o n tr o l a n d I’ ll g o t h r o u g h s o m e o f th e r e a s o n s w h y a n d th e b e n e fi ts f o r S o u t h A f r i c a a n d t h e c i tiz e n s o f S o u th A fr ic a , t h a t’s a ll I w a n t e d y o u to k n o w t h e r e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: T h e n th e r e is t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t M is s N o r m a n p u t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir, c o u l d y o u t h e n d e s c r i b e t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n th e e n c r y p ti o n a n d t h e n o n e n c r y p ti o n s ta t u s i s h a p p e n i n g a n d t h e b e n e fi ts o f e n c r y p t io n ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a w h e n I jo in e d i n 2 0 1 2 a n d r e a d i n g t h e p r e v i o u s d o c u m e n ts fr o m r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 0 5 / 2 0 0 6 th e d e p a r t m e n t Page 100 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 h a d a c t u a ll y p u t o u t a p o l ic y d o c u m e n t w h i c h r e q u ir e d t h a t S o u th A f r ic a s h o u l d h a v e a f u lly e n c r y p te d d i g i t a l T V n e t w o r k . T h e n r e a d in g th r o u g h f u r th e r d o c u m e n ts a n d a t te n d i n g m e e t in g s – I ’d lik e to ju s t g iv e y o u a b i t o f a b a c k g r o u n d , a w e e k a f te r I jo in e d C h a ir, I w e n t to a p r e s e n t a ti o n in Johannesburg where the ITU, th e I n te r n a ti o n a l C o m m u n i c a t io n U n i o n , t h e y s e e m t o h a v e a y e a r ly t h i n g , i t ’s in S o u t h A fr ic a , j u s t t o k i n d o f u p d a te p e o p l e w h a t’s h a p p e n i n g i n t h e r e s t o f t h e w o r l d a n d I h a p p e n e d t o b e s i t ti n g n e x t t o a g u y I d i d n ’ t k n o w h i m a n d h e w a s f r o m M u l ti c h o i c e a n d t h e r e a s o n I k n e w t h is i s , h e h a d t h e 10 S o u th A fr ic a n P o lic y d o c u m e n t o n h is d e s k a n d h e w a s s i t ti n g li s t e n i n g t o t h e c h a p s p e a k i n g fr o m t h e I T U a n d th e n e x t th i n g h e g o t a p h o n e c a l l a n d t h e p h o n e c a l l w a s t o u p d a t e h i m b e c a u s e r ig h t a t th a t m o m e n t M i n is t e r D i n a P u l e ’s g r o u p o f p e o p l e w h o d o p o li c y w e r e r e l e a s in g a p o li c y d o c u m e n t o n th a t d a y a n d t h i s c h a p g o t t h e p h o n e c a l l a n d h e k in d o f s a i d , l is t e n t h e y h a v e n ’ t c h a n g e d i t a t a ll s e t to p b o x c o n t r o l i s s t il l i n h e r e a n d I w o n d e r e d w h o t h is c h a p p i e i s . H e t u r n e d o u t h e w a s a n e n g i n e e r fr o m M u l ti c h o i c e a n d I ’l l t e ll y o u w h y – i f w e c a n ju s t p u t t h a t i n t o t h e b a c k g r o u n d n o w it ’s g o i n g t o c o m e u p w h y t h a t’s i m p o r t a n t. 20 S o t o g e t b a c k t o th e q u e s ti o n o f e n c r y p ti o n a n d n o n - e n c r y p ti o n , t h e r e a s o n t h a t n e t w o r k s e n c r y p t t h e ir n e t w o r k s i s fi r s t o f a l l is t o p r o t e c t t h e c o n t e n t . N o w m o s t m a jo r m o v i e h o u s e s a r e in s is t in g t h a t b r o a d c a s te r s e n c r y p t t h e c o n te n t s o t h a t y o u c a n ’ t c o p y t h e s e t h i n g s , o t h e r w i s e y o u r c o p y r i g h t s a r e i n fr i n g e d a n d p e o p le c a n ju s t ta k e a n d c o p y a n d m a k e a n d s e ll p r o d u c t s w h ic h th e y ’v e c o p i e d a n d i t ’s n o t t h e ir r i g h t a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d i s , a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e to o k Page 101 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t h is e n c r y p t io n t h i n g a n d s t a r t e d p u t ti n g o u t s to r i e s t h a t w h e n y o u e n c r y p t a s y s te m o r a n e tw o r k i t b e c o m e s , n o t fr e e . T h e r e ’s a t e r m c a l l e d fr e e t o a ir c h a n n e l s a n d f r e e to a ir, if I c a n j u s t r e a d y o u a n e n c y c l o p a e d ia d e fi n i t io n , i t ’s a v e r y s i m p l e d e fi n it i o n , w h a t fr e e to a ir means, “ Fr e e to a ir TV is t e le v is i o n tr a n s m it t e d over th e a ir u n e n c r y p t e d o r e n c r y p te d w i th o u t c h a r g e f o r t h e d e liv e r y o f t h e s ig n a l t o t h e v i e w e r ” , T h a t ’s w h a t fr e e to a i r m e a n s , i t m e a n s y o u a n d I s i t t in g a t 10 h o m e w e d o n ’t p a y f o r fr e e t o a ir c h a n n e l s b u t I c a n te ll y o u n o w p e o p l e w i t h i n S A B C t o o k th is in f o r m a t io n a n d s t a r te d t e l li n g , e v e n t h e c o m m u n i ty T V g u y s , i f t h e M i n is t e r i m p l e m e n t s e n c r y p ti o n , a ll y o u r v ie w e r s a t h o m e w i ll h a v e t o p a y, w h ic h is a t o t a l l i e . Fr e e t o a ir m e a n s fr e e , t h e e x a m p l e s o f f r e e t o a ir w h ic h w e h a v e t o d a y, fi r s t o f a l l S A B C ’s fr e e t o a ir, S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 fr e e t o a ir, t o ta ll y u n e n c r y p t e d , n o e n c r y p ti o n . T h e n e x t f r e e to a ir c h a n n e l is t h e fi r s t b r o a d c a s te r a p p o i n t e d i n S o u t h A f r i c a E - T V, t h e y h a v e a T V c o m p a n y c a ll e d o p e n v ie w w h i c h b r o a d c a s ts fr e e e n c r y p t e d , n o t u n e n c r y p t e d , f r e e e n c r y p te d , fr e e t o a ir T V w h ic h I ’ m n o t s u r e i f y o u h a v e E- T V a t h o m e , I d o , I p a y 20 n o t h i n g i t’s f o r fr e e , t h a t is fr e e to a ir. H o w e v e r, M u l ti c h o ic e t o o k t h is a n d s t a r t e d b a n g i n g o n i t a n d t e l li n g p e o p le y o u a r e g o in g t o p a y, y o u h a v e t o n o t h a v e e n c r y p ti o n . N o w my p e r s o n a l o p in i o n is t h a t t h e y d i d n ’ t w a n t th e M i n is te r t o i m p l e m e n t a n y ty p e o f e n c r y p ti o n o r s e t t o p b o x c o n tr o l b e c a u s e th e y d id n ’ t w a n t o r t h e y s t il l d o n ’ t w a n t c o m p e ti t io n in t h e p a y T V m a r k e t a n d th e y f o u g h t t h is t o o t h a n d n a i l , th e y c a m e u p Page 102 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 w i t h t h i n g s l ik e , M i n i s te r w h y is th e g o v e r n m e n t g i v i n g o u r p o o r e r p e o p l e s e t t o p b o x e s f o r fr e e , th e y ’r e o n l y g o in g t o b e o n e m o r e y e a r a n d t h e n t h e y ’r e r e d u n d a n t . W e ll t h e f a c t o f t h e m a t te r is , if y o u g o a n d r e a d t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o s e t to p b o x e s , t h e m a r k e t h a s g r o w n e x p o n e n t i a ll y t o th e e x te n t th a t e v e n M u l ti c h o i c e h a v e r e l e a s e d u p to f o u r n e w d e c o d e r s o v e r th e p a s t t w o y e a r s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e v e r y fl e x ib l e , t h e y c a n g iv e i n f o r m a t io n w h i c h p e o p l e w h o c a n ’ t a ff o r d c o m p u te r s y o u c a n s e n d i t v i a th e s e t t o p b o x a n d th e y c a n g e t i t o n t h e ir 10 T V. So one of the – maybe I’ m j u m p in g th e gun h e r e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o a c t u a l ly y o u a r e d e a l in g m o s t o r s o m e o f th e a s p e c ts y o u d e a l w i t h in y o u r s t a t e m e n t , s o a s y o u a r e s p e a k i n g I am just…[intervenes]. M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C a n I c a r r y o n l ik e t h a t o r d o y o u w a n t to a s k s p e c i fic q u e s ti o n s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u m a y c a r r y o n I t h i n k y o u m a y c a r r y o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a t a c e r t a in s ta g e s h e w i ll a s k y o u i f y o u a r e o f the … 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O f c o u r s e . A lr i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o p e o p le th e n s a y w e l l w h a t is th e b e n e fi t o f h a v in g a s e t t o p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m a n d I w o u l d li k e t o r e e m p h a s is e t h a t s e t t o p b o x c o n tr o l is n o t a t e r m i n th e b r o a d c a s t i n g in d u s tr y. I t is c a ll e d c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s . N o w c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s i f w e Page 103 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t a k e t h o s e t w o te r ms c o n d i ti o n a l m e a n s y o u m u s t m e e t t h e c o n d i ti o n . I n th e p a y T V e n v ir o n m e n t t h e s i m p l e c o n d i ti o n t h a t y o u m u s t m e e t is t h a t y o u m u s t p a y y o u r b i ll . A n d i f y o u p a y y o u r b il l y o u g e t a c c e s s . C o n d i t io n a l a c c e s s . T h a t i s t h e s i m p le v e r s i o n o r e x a m p l e o f t h a t. S o t h e b e n e fi ts o f t h e s e c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m s . CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second. I t h o u g h t th a t w h e n y o u s a i d t h e c o r r e c t te r m i s c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s n o t t h e s e t b o x e s a n d s o o n . I t h o u g h t t h a t w o u l d a p p ly t o b o t h e n c r y p t e d a n d n o n - e n c r y p t e d – th a t is not correct 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o it is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is c o r r e c t ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . A s I s a i d e a r li e r o n i t i s a c o m p u te r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It h a s a n u m b e r o f f u n c t i o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Yo u c a n e n c r y p t , y o u c a n n o n - e n c r y p t , y o u c a n a d d s e t to p b o x c o n tr o l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Yo u a d d m e s s a g in g . T h e r e i s a w h o le p l e th o r a o f CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t i n t e r m s o f w h a t i t is t h a t e n a b l e s a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e p u b l ic d o e s n o t p a y t h a t h a s g o t n o t h i n g to d o w h e t h e r i t is e n c r y p t e d o r n o t – n o n - e n c r y p t e d . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h th a t . Page 104 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is i t t h a t m a k e s t h a t d i ff e r e n c e in t h e e q u i p m e n t o r w h a te v e r t h e a r r a n g e m e n t is ? B e c a u s e y o u s e e y o u h a v e ju s t – y o u ju s t m a d e a p o in t w h ic h I t h i n k i s p r o b a b l y v e r y i m p o r t a n t n a m e ly t h a t certain people a p p a r e n tly started going around and g iv in g d is i n f o r m a t i o n s a y i n g if A B C – i f t h e M i n i s t e r d o e s th is y o u w il l h a v e to p a y o r p e o p le w i ll h a v e t o p a y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n in f a c t a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e p e o p l e w o u ld n o t h a v e t o p a y. 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. S o I a m tr y i n g t o – t o e s t a b li s h w h a t m a k e s t h e d i ff e r e n c e in t e r m s o f th e tw o . I n t e r m s o f t h i s p r o g r a m w h e r e d o e s t h e d i ff e r e n c e li e ? I f y o u h a v e t h i s – if y o u w a n t fr e e t o a ir t h is is w h a t y o u m u s t h a v e . If i t is g o in g t o b e – i t is n o t g o i n g t o b e a fr e e t o a ir a n d p e o p l e h a v e t o p a y th e n th is i s w h a t y o u h a v e t o h a v e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y I u n d e r s ta n d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I m ig h t n o t b e a r t ic u l a ti n g th is a s – a s e l o q u e n t ly a s I w o u ld lik e to . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o , n o , n o t h a t is fi n e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: B u t p a r t ly i t m i g h t b e m y l a c k o f k n o w l e d g e o f t h is t e c h n o l o g y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. N o a s I s a i d e a r li e r o n C h a ir. Fr e e t o a ir i s e x a c t ly w h a t i t s a y s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Whether we encrypt or we do not Page 105 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 encrypt. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e e n d u s e r g e t s t h e c h a n n e l f r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d th e fr e e t o a ir c h a n n e ls a r e I a m a s s u m i n g b y la w h a v e b e e n i m p l e m e n t e d C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : To s a y t h a t t h e e n d u s e r m u s t n e v e r p a y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o m a t te r w h a t th e t e c h n o l o g y is b e h in d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o m a tt e r i f th e r e i s e n c r y p t i o n o r n o t it is fr e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Fi n i s h e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e w h o le p r o j e c t w a s b a s e d o n it b e in g a fr e e t o a ir p r o j e c t ? 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is t h a t w h e n a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e M u l ti C h o ic e a n d m a y b e a n d I t h i n k y o u s a i d s o m e p e o p l e w i th i n t h e S A B C b e g a n t o s a y t o p e o p l e y o u a r e g o in g to h a v e t o p a y i f b la , Page 106 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 b l a , b la , b l a . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h i c h y o u s a y w a s n o t tr u e b e c a u s e t h e w h o le p r o j e c t w a s b a s e d o n i t b e in g a fr e e t o a ir p r o j e c t . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: S o I a m tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d w h e th e r i n g i v i n g w h a t y o u w o u l d r e fe r to a s d i s i n fo r m a ti o n o r m i s le a d i n g th e p u b lic w h a t i t is t h a t t h e y m a y h a v e b e e n u s i n g th a t c o u l d e a s il y c a u s e c o n f u s io n t o p e o p l e a s t o w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e r i g h t t o s a y t h e y w o u l d h a v e to p a y o r 10 not? O r i t w a s s i m p ly f a ls e i n f o r m a ti o n b e i n g d i s t r i b u t e d o n t h e a s s u m p t io n th a t p e o p l e w il l b e l i e v e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It is fa ls e i n f o r m a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Th a t is th e b o t t o m l in e . It is false in f o r m a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t. Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e . Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. Just f o ll o w i n g – h o w d o e s – b e c a u s e y o u h a v e j u s t t e r m e d i t c o n d i t io n a l 20 a c c e s s m e a n i n g t h a t y o u c a n a c c e s s i t h a v in g s a tis f ie d c e r ta i n r e q u ir e m e n t s . How does that link up then we encrypted or non- e n c r y p te d . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W e l l a s I s a i d t h e c o n d i t io n a l a c c e s s s y s te m h a s t h e c a p a b i li ty t o e n c r y p t y o u r in f o r m a t io n . I n o t h e r w o r d s t h e s i g n a l i t c a n e n c r y p t it o r i t d o e s n o t h a v e to e n c r y p t i t. Yo u c a n Page 107 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 ju s t d o th a t v i a th e c o m p u t e r. S o y o u h a v e a n e n c r y p t io n o r y o u d o n o t h a v e e n c r y p ti o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I t h in k – I th i n k m a y b e I a m k i n d o f g e t ti n g to w h a t w a s c o n f u s in g m e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s a i d c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s i m p ly m e a n s y o u w i ll h a v e a c c e s s i f y o u m e e t t h e c o n d i ti o n s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w h a t w a s c o n f u s i n g m e i s th a t y o u s a i d w h e n w e t a l k a b o u t t h is s e t b o x e s i t i s r e a l ly c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s a n d th e n I w a s w o n d e r in g w h y a r e y o u s a y in g l e t u s t a lk a b o u t c o n d i t io n a l a c c e s s w h e n th e w h o l e p r o j e c t is m e a n t t o b e A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Fr e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : F r e e to a ir p r o j e c t . I t h i n k th a t is w h e r e I w a s g e t ti n g c o n fu s e d . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 B e c a u s e I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t y o u w e r e s a y in g w h e t h e r y o u a r e g o i n g t o e n d u p w i th a fr e e to a ir p r o j e c t o r a n o t f r e e t o a ir p r o je c t t h i s s y s t e m t h a t y o u a r e g o in g to n e e d t o u s e is c a ll e d c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s a n d th e n I w a s t h i n k in g w h y c a l l a s y s t e m c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : If it is a c tu a lly n o t c o n d i t io n a l . Page 108 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. I f I c a n m a y b e j u s t th e n s te p b a c k o n e s te p . T h e c o n d i t io n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m i s a c o m p u te r. L e t u s p u t t h a t o n t h e s i d e . H e r e i t s i ts h e r e . C o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s . S A B C , E T V a n d M u lt i C h o i c e s i t h e r e a n d t h e y s e n d s i g n a ls to th e n e t w o r k a n d y o u – y o u w a tc h th e s e s ig n a l s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o m e o f t h o s e s i g n a ls a r e c a ll e d f r e e t o a ir. S o th e y s e n d f r e e to a i r s i g n a ls u p a n d d o w n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e e n d u s e r d o e s n o t p a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A c o n d it io n a l a c c e s s th e M i n is t e r in t h e b e g in n in g s a i d l is t e n w e w a n t t o e n c r y p t t h o s e s i g n a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B e c a u s e w e g e t ti n g p r e s s u r e fr o m m o v i e h o u s e s e t c e t e r a a n d t h e r e is a n u m b e r o f o t h e r is s u e s w h ic h I w i ll g o t h r o u g h j u s t n o w. W e w a n t to p r o t e c t o u r lo c a l i n d u s tr y f r o m – lo c a l m a n u f a c tu r i n g i n d u s tr y a n d I w i ll t e l l y o u w h y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o h e s a i d w e a r e g o in g t o u s e t h e c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s t o e n c r y p t th e s e s i g n a ls b u t it w i ll s ti ll b e fr e e f o r the people at the end. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s , c o m p u te r c a n e n c r y p t b u t i t is f o r f r e e fo r t h e p e o p le o n t h e e n d . T h a t is i t . Page 109 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o r d in a r ily – o r d in a r il y a c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S y s te m CHAIRPERSON: S y s te m is b a s e d o n – o n t h e fa c t th a t t h e e n d u s e r w i ll p a y. M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o . T h e e n d u s e r d o e s n o t p a y. I ju s t m e n ti o n e d th a t i n a p a y T V o p e r a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Th e y a l s o h a v e c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s . M u l ti C h o ic e h a s g o t a c o n d i t i o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m ; 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : As w e l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d o n e o f t h e ir c o n d i ti o n s t o w a t c h T V is y o u m u s t p a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t t h e o n e t h a t S e n te c h h a s g o t w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o – o n e o f th e c o n d i ti o n s is n o t p a y m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : 20 T h e r e is n o c o n d i t io n s f o r y o u t o watch. So it is not conditional. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t t h e c o m p u t e r is s t il l c a ll e d c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s . CHAIRPERSON: O h s o i n th e e n d t h e c o m p u t e r r e m a in s c a l l e d c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s . Page 110 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n t h a t … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a t y o u h a v e t o p a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y b o d y u s in g i t h a s t o p a y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . N o b o d y h a s t o p a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o w I t h in k I u n d e r s t a n d . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I j u s t g a v e th a t a s a n e x a m p l e th a t p a y T V g u y s y o u m u s t p a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Ye s O k a y. 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a t is o n e o f th e c o n d i ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y th a t i s f in e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t i t h a s m a n y o t h e r a p p l ic a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o t h e n t h e w a y y o u h a v e d e s c r ib e d i t t o th e C h a ir t h a t w a s y o u r o l e a t t h e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e Te c h n ic a l A d v is o r t h a t y o u h a d t o g o a n d a c t u a l ly t a k e c o n tr o l s o t h a t p e o p l e u n d e r s t o o d e x a c t ly w h a t t h e s y s te m w a s a l l a b o u t? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : 20 Ja I think you know part of my job d e s c r ip t io n i f y o u w a n t w a s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t p e o p le w i th – i n t h e Department of C o m m u n ic a ti o n w h ic h they had about u n d e r s t o o d w h a t t h i s w h o le p r o j e c t w a s a b o u t e x a c t ly. 450 s t a ff Now I did not w a n t to g o in t o d e e p t e c h n ic a l d e t a i l b u t I k n o w t h e r e i s a l o t o f p e o p l e ju s t d i d n o t h a v e t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f e x a c t ly w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g . S o I u s e d t o h a v e l e c t u r e s t o t r y a n d g iv e i n f o r m a ti o n to t h e s e g u y s . B u t Page 111 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y w e e n d e d u p w i t h a p o lic y d o c u m e n t w h ic h t h e n s t a te d th a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e s e t- to p b o x c o n tr o l i n t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o lic y d o c u m e n t th a t t h e r e w i ll b e s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l. T h e r e w i ll b e a m e s s a g in g s y s t e m w h i c h is – t h e c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s te m i t c a n d o s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l . I t c a n d o m e s s a g in g a n d i t c a n d o – t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r p i e c e o f s o ft w a r e t o c h e c k s e t- t o p b o x e s . L e t u s c a ll i t a s e tt o p b o x c h e c k e r s o f t w a r e . T h e c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s c a n d o t h o s e t h r e e s o t h e M i n is t e r p u t t h a t i n t h e p o l ic y a n d s a i d l is t e n S e n t e c h v i a o u r p o li c y w e w a n t t h o s e t h r e e i m p l e m e n te d . T h e m a in o n e b e in g s e t- to p 10 b o x c o n tr o l . A n d … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e i n i t ia l . M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e S A B C w a s w i th u s a l l t h e ti m e . T h e S A B C a p p r o v e d . L u la m a M o k h o b o w r o te t h e M i n is t e r a le t t e r – o h s o r r y I n e e d to s t e p b a c k o n e . S o w h e n I f o u n d o u t t h a t S e n t e c h h a d t h is c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m a lr e a d y i n p l a c e I w e n t t o t h e M in is t e r I s a i d M i n is te r I s e e S A B C h a s g o n e o u t o n te n d e r fo r a c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s te m . T h e y d o n o t n e e d t o . S e n te c h ’s a lr e a d y g o t o n e . T h e M i n is t e r w a s k in d o f s u r p r is e d . H e – o h j a . S o I s a id y e s . S o a ll w e h a v e t o d o is a d v ic e S A B C . Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o g o o u t o n t e n d e r y o u 20 w i ll u s e – y o u w il l … CHAIRPERSON: The Sentech system. M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I a m u s i n g t h a t w o r d s o t h a t y o u c a n u n d e r s t a n d – y o u w i ll u s e S e n t e c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o w h ic h y e a r w a s t h i s n o w ? Page 112 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : P a r d o n ? T h a t w a s 2 0 1 2 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : In 2 0 1 2 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o a n d s h e w r o t e a l e tt e r t o D o c t o r N g u b a n e a n d s h e t o l d h i m p le a s e a d v is e S A B C . C H A I R P E R S O N : To D o c to r w h o ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : D o c t o r N g u b a n e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh Doctor Ngubane? 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d a t t h e t i m e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e C h a ir p e r s o n y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : P le a s e y o u w il l u s e S e n te c h t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y g o t t h e s y s te m i n p la c e . T h e y h a v e b o u g h t i t . Th e y h a v e g o t e n g in e e r s tr a i n e d o n it . T h e y h a v e a h e l p d e s k to h e l p p e o p le . S o i t is a v a i la b le . T h e n E - T V d e c i d e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A t t h a t t i m e d o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c ti o n a s t o h o w fa r th e t e n d e r p r o c e s s h a d g o n e a t S A B C f o r t h e s a m e 20 s y s te m ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It – th e fir s t t e n d e r h a d l a p s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d t h e y r e n e w e d i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : F o r a n o t h e r 9 0 d a y s . Page 113 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It la p s e d a g a in . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d t h e y w e r e a b o u t t o r e n e w i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h e n I a c t u a lly s t e p p e d i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . S o C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is le t t e r w a s s e n t to D o c t o r N g u b a n e [ in d is ti n c t ] . 10 x M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N g u b a n e j a a n d E - T V – i t is s tr a n g e k in d o f s e t u p b u t a t t h a t s t a g e E- T V d i d n o t s u p p o r t s e t- to p b o x c o n tr o l . S o t h e y to o k t h e M i n is te r to c o u r t a n d t h is b a s ic a l ly g o t r i d o f 2 0 1 2 d e e p i n to 2 0 1 3 w h e n w e e v e n t u a ll y e n d e d u p i n c o u r t . A n d t h e r e a s o n t h e y to o k t h e M i n is t e r t o c o u r t w a s th e y s a id y o u a s t h e M i n is t e r d o n o t h a v e p o w e r to te ll – t o d ir e c t S A B C w h a t t h e y w ill a n d w il l n o t d o . S tr a n g e b u t I th o u g h t t h e M i n is te r h a d p o w e r b u t i t tu r n s o u t i n l a w s h e d i d n o t h a v e p o w e r. A n d E- T V w o n t h e c o u r t c a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f – b u t if t h e M i n i s t e r d i d n o t h a v e p o w e r t o te ll t h e S A B C w h a t to d o h o w w a s t h a t p r e j u d ic in g th e m ? 20 M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I t w a s n o t th a t t h e p r e j u d ic in g S A B C b u t – o h y o u m e a n E- T V ? CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I mean E-TV you know where did they come in ? M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I t h i n k i t w a s b e c a u s e th e y d i d n o t l ik e t h e f a c t t h a t th e M i n is te r w a s s a y in g y o u w i ll u s e S e n t e c h ’s s e t- t o p b o x Page 114 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 c o n tr o l s y s t e m w h e r e b y – I n e e d to s t e p b a c k a g a i n . Th e t e n d e r th a t S A B C s e n t o u t w a s d o n e o n b e h a l f o f a c o n s o r t i u m a n d t h e c o n s o r t iu m w a s E - T V, S A B C , M u l t iC h o ic e a n d t h e c o m m u n i ty T V b r o a d c a s t e r s . S o b y t h e M i n i s t e r s a y i n g li s t e n S A B C – a l t h o u g h s h e w r o t e t h e l e tt e r to S A B C i t w o u ld a ff e c t th e o th e r g u y s b e c a u s e s h e is t e ll i n g S A B C n o , n o , n o f o r g e t a b o u t t h a t t e n d e r y o u w il l u s e S e n te c h a n d th e E - T V s a i d a h , a h , a h w e w a n t t o g o o u t o n t e n d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I ju s t r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e o f t h e q u e s t i o n t h a t I a s k e d t h a t y o u t a lk a b o u t E - T V t a k in g t h e M i n is t e r t o c o u r t . I t h i n k t h a t is a 10 m a t t e r t h a t e n d e d u p in t h e c o n s t it u ti o n a l c o u r t a t s o m e s t a g e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I w a s p a r t o f th e p a n e l t h a t h e a r d t h e m a t te r b u t that is neither here nor there. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o I th in k y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t – CHAIRPERSON: But I think that… M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e r e is a s e c o n d c o u r t c a s e o n n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe it was … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t t h e – I a m r a is i n g th a t b e c a u s e I s e e m t o 20 r e m e m b e r t h a t e v e n d u r in g t h e h e a r in g o f t h a t m a t t e r I m a y h a v e a s k e d t h e s a m e q u e s t io n t o s a y b u t w h e r e d o e s – w h e r e d i d E- T V c o m e i n here? I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y w o u ld t h e y h a v e t h a t c o m p l a i n t y o u know? W h a t w a s th e ir b a s is fo r – f o r e v e n g o i n g t o c o u r t a b o u t th is b e c a u s e I m a y t h o u g h t t h a t t h e p a p e r s , t h e a ffi d a v i t s d i d n o t s e e m t o e x p l a i n th a t ? S o – s o b u t y o u m a y p r o c e e d . Page 115 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: J a I w i ll h a v e t o l o o k a t th e a ff id a v i ts a n d t h e ju d g m e n t a n d r e fr e s h my m e m o r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t o w h a t h a p p e n e d . Ye s c o n t i n u e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. S o w e th e n – w e g o t a l e t t e r g o t b a c k fr o m S A B C fr o m L u l a m a M o k h o b o s a y i n g y e s t h i s is a l l s y s te m s g o , w e f u l ly s u p p o r t y o u , o u r p r o j e c t t e a m h e a d e d u p t h e C TO o r a c ti n g C TO a t th a t s t a g e fr o m S A B C S i p h o M a s i n g a . W e s a t i n th e 10 p r o j e c t t e a m . W e w e n t t h r o u g h a ll h o w w e a r e g o in g to i m p l e m e n t t h is t o t h e e x t e n t th a t w e a c tu a lly h a d a g r e e m e n t s s e t u p b y D o c t o r S e tu m a M o h a p i fr o m S e n t e c h h o w h e w o u ld i m p l e m e n t th e s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l , t h e c o s t s i n v o lv e d f r o m t h e b r o a d c a s te r ’s s id e n o t th e e n d u s e r. end user pays nothing. The T h e b r o a d c a s te r s w h a t th e y w o u ld p a y, t h e m o n th ly c o s t s , h o w i t w o u ld b e i m p l e m e n t e d ? A n d S A B C f u ll y b e h i n d u s . T h e n it – th e n i t c a m e a c h a n g e i n t h e M i n i s te r ’s – M in is t e r D i n a P u le w a s r e c a l le d a n d … CHAIRPERSON: J u s t – I a m s o r r y. m i n is t e r c o m in g i n . 20 J u s t b e fo r e y o u g o t o t h e n e w S o th e p o s i ti o n w e a r e – y o u w e r e a t a t t h e ti m e w h e n M in is t e r D i n a P u l e l e f t w a s th a t th e t e n d e r p r o c e s s t h a t th e S A B C h a d i n i ti a t e d i n o r d e r t o g e t c o n d i t io n a l a c c e s s h a d b e e n s to p p e d b e c a u s e t h e M i n is t e r o n y o u r a d v ic e w r o t e a l e t t e r t o th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d a n d t h e b o a r d a n d t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f S A B C a c c e p te d t h e in s t r u c t i o n , d ir e c t io n o r w h a t e v e r i t w a s o r s u g g e s t io n fr o m t h e M in is t e r t h a t t h e r e is n o r e a s o n to s e e k to o b t a i n a c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s b e c a u s e Page 116 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 S e n te c h h a s g o t i t r e a d y. Th a t is t h e – t h a t is w h a t – t h a t i s w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n w a s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n M in is t e r D i n a P u l e le f t . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t y e s . S o M in is te r P u l e l e ft . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : M a y b e a n d k in d o f h a p p e n in g a t th e s a m e t i m e – a t t h e s a m e t i m e w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g is t h a t M u l ti C h o ic e w a s a ls o o b j e c ti n g t o a ll k in d o f th in g s i n t h e p o li c y d o c u m e n t w h i c h 10 t h e y d id n o t l ik e . A n d – s o r r y I a m j u s t tr y in g to g e t my t h o u g h ts th e r e . B e c a u s e a a m ju s t tr y in g t o ti e u p t h e ti m e l in e w h e n t h e M i n is t e r c h a n g e d a n d M i n i s te r Yu n u s C a r r i m c a m e i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e r e w a s a lr e a d y a c o m p la in t fr o m M u l ti C h o ic e a n d s u d d e n l y – I j u s t c a n n o t g e t t h e e x a c t t i m e b u t t h e S A B C d e c id e d w e n o l o n g e r w a n t t o c o o p e r a te i n t h i s w e d o n o t n e e d a c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s /s e t- t o p b o x c o n t r o l s y s t e m . S o w e a s th e S A B C a r e n o t p a r tic ip a ti n g . N o w w e w e r e s h o c k e d b e c a u s e w e h a d lik e I s a y w e a lr e a d y h a d c o n tr a c ts s e t u p w i t h S e n t e c h t h a t t h e S A B C w o u l d s i g n . 20 E - T V – E - T V in f a c t I t h i n k t h e y m ig h t h a v e e v e n s i g n e d t h e ir s id e o f i t . I t w a s ju s t S A B C s ti ll to p u t t h e ir s i g n a t u r e . A n d th e n e x t t h in g S A B C … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a t t h a t s t a g e E - T V w a s in li n e w it h y o u r v i e w s ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f w h a t s h o u ld h a p p e n , i s t h a t r i g h t ? Page 117 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ti n u e . M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I t is s tr a n g e b u t r e m e m b e r t h e y t o o k t h e M i n i s t e r t o c o u r t b u t t h e n th e y k i n d o f c h a n g e d t h e ir m i n d . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t t h e y w e r e t h e n i n l i n e w i t h u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. T h e s ta g e w h e r e M in is t e r P u l e l e f t . 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d E- T V t a k e n t h e M in i s t e r to c o u r t a lr e a d y ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d th a t l it i g a t io n b e e n f in a l is e d ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a t h a t w a s fi n i s h e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f th a t l i ti g a t io n ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e o u tc o m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u r e c a ll . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O h i n t h e c o u r t CHAIRPERSON: Ja in the court as you recall it. 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e M i n i s t e r l o s t th e c a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d h e r l e t te r h a d t o b e w i th d r a w n fr o m t h e S A B C . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t t h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g . Page 118 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S h e w a s – s h e h a d n o p o w e r to t e ll S A B C w h a t to d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Th a t i s s u e t h a t w e n t t o c o u r t i n r e g a r d to t h a t li ti g a t i o n r e l a te d t o t h e l e t te r fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r t h a t s a i d s t o p t h e te n d e r p r o c e s s b e c a u s e S e n te c h h a s g o t w h a t y o u a r e l o o k in g fo r. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t s o a f te r th e o u t c o m e o f t h e c a s e a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s i ti o n w a s t h e p o s i ti o n t h e r e f o r e th a t th e S A B C b o a r d 10 w a s t h e o n e th a t w a s s a id t o h a v e t h e p o w e r t o d e c id e w h e t h e r t h e y w o u ld n e e d t o g o t o te n d e r p r o c e s s o r t o c o n ti n u e o n t h e p a t h t h a t h a d b e e n s u g g e s t e d b y M s – M i n i s t e r P u le ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a t is h o w I w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d i t y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h o w y o u u n d e r s t o o d i t? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a , j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a f t e r t h e M in is t e r h a d l e ft t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o a s I s a y o n e d a y w e k in d o f g e t ti n g r e a d y t o s i g n th e s e c o n tr a c t s a n d S A B C v i a S i p h o M a s in g a s a y s w e n o lo n g e r g o i n g to p a r ti c i p a t e t h e S A B C h a s d e c i d e d t h e y d o n o t w a n t a n y 20 s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l , a n y e n c r y p ti o n o r a n y t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s te m f r o m S e n t e c h . Now we were kind of s u r p r is e d b e c a u s e w e h a d th e s e lik e w a r r o o m m e e t i n g s e v e r y w e e k t o u p d a te a n d g e t r e a d y t o g o . S o I d e c id e d to t r y a n d f in d o u t w h y a n d t h e n t a l k i n g t o c o ll e a g u e s i n th e S A B C i t t u r n e d o u t t h a t t h e S A B C h a d s ig n e d t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h M u l ti C h o ic e a n d t h e D G a t t h a t s t a g e Ms Page 119 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 R o s e y S e k e s e s h e c a ll e d m e a n d s a i d lis t e n h a v e a l o o k a t t h is c o n tr a c t. T h e r e is a c l a u s e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h i c h c l a u s e b u t t h e r e a r e t w o o r th r e e c l a u s e s w h a t d o e s i t m e a n t o u s a s a D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s a n d t h e S A B C ? A n d I w i ll s u m m a r is e i t b u t t h o s e c la u s e s s a i d – w e a s M u l t i C h o i c e w il l g iv e y o u I t h i n k – I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e e x a c t n u m b e r s a r e R 5 0 0 m il li o n a y e a r fo r y o u t o p u t y o u r c h a n n e l s o n o u r n e tw o r k b u t y o u a r e – o h I a m u s in g m y o w n w o r d s n o w – y o u a r e b a n n e d fr o m u s i n g e n c r y p t io n o r s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l o n t h is n e t w o r k . W h ic h is – h o w c a n a M u l ti C h o ic e te ll t h e g o v e r n m e n t y o u w il l 10 n o t u s e s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l. But somehow they convinced the SABC a n d th a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h a t . lo n g e r w a n t . S o t h e M i n is t e r – S A B C s a id w e n o S o – b u t o u r – a s I s a y I d o n o t k n o w th e ti m e li n e s . E v e n M s E ll e n Ts h a b a l a l a s h e b e c a m e t h e n e w C E O o f S A B C a ls o during that time. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s h e w a s [ i n d is ti n c t ] . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A ls o d u r i n g t h a t ti m e . E v e n s h e w r o t e u s a l e tt e r t o M in is t e r Yu n u s C a r r i m h e j u s t s t a r t e d a n d s h e l is t e n y o u h a v e g o t m y f u l l s u p p o r t , g o a h e a d , l e t u s s i g n u p w i th S e n t e c h , w e f u ll y s u p p o r t y o u . 20 W i th in a w e e k s h e s e n t a l e tt e r s o r r y w e h a v e c h a n g e d o u r m in d . CHAIRPERSON: Ha. M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I a m s ti ll fl a b b e r g a s t e d to d a y b e c a u s e t h a t w h o le p r o c e s s is w h y S o u th A f r ic a is n o t f in is h e d w i t h th e ir d i g i t a l r o l l o u t . T h a t w h o l e p r o c e s s is s to p p e d r i g h t t h e r e . B e c a u s e th e r e w e r e in fl u e n c e s f r o m o t h e r p e o p le , o t h e r c o m p a n i e s th a t h a v e s o m e h o w Page 120 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 s t o p p e d t h e w h o le th in g . T h e y c a m e w it h t h i s fr e e t o a ir th a t p e o p le m u s t p a y. O h th e c o s ts a r e g o in g t o b e r id ic u l o u s a n d t h e m o r e w e – t h e M in is t e r Yu n u s C a r r i m c a ll e d – h e c a ll e d c o n f e r e n c e s a n d h e g o t M u l ti C h o ic e a n d e v e r y o n e to tr y a n d c o m e u p w i t h a c o n s e n s u s . g a v e t h e m l e e w a y. He H e c a m e u p w i t h n e w – h e a s k e d th e m t o p u t i n . A n d t h e n w e c a m e u p w i t h a – in f a c t w e e v e n g o t a n e w p o li c y, a t o t a lly n e w p o l ic y w h ic h w e t o o k t o P a r l ia m e n t a n d t h e y p a s s e d t h e p o li c y. A n d i t w a s a b r a n d n e w p o li c y a n d t h a t p o li c y s a id , O k a y th e S A B C d o e s n o t w a n t e n c r y p ti o n s o w h a t w e w il l d o is w e c h a n g e th e 10 p o li c y t o s a y o k a y t h e s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m w i ll a l lo w – a l lo w o r d is a ll o w e n c r y p t i o n d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t th e b r o a d c a s t e r w a n ts . I f E- T V w a n ts e n c r y p t io n w e w i ll a ll o w i t b u t th e y w i ll p a y w h a t t h e g o v e r n m e n t d e c i d e s . To m e it w a s a s i m p le s y s t e m . E i th e r y o u w a n t e d i t a n d y o u p a i d o r y o u d o n o t w a n t i t a n d y o u d o n o t p a y. A n d P a r li a m e n t p a s s e d t h e th i n g th a t is i t . Th e y p a s s e d th e p o l ic y. Not good enough. And t h a t is w h y w e a r e s t il l s i tt i n g w h e r e w e a r e t o d a y. S o m e b o d y s ti ll d i d n o t lik e i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 So what was the – or what were the important d i ff e r e n c e s b e tw e e n t h e p o li c y a s it w a s b e fo r e M in is t e r C a r r i m c a m e i n a n d th e p o li c y th a t h e t o o k t h r o u g h P a r li a m e n t a n d g o t p a s s e d . W h a t was the main …? M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e m a i n d i ffe r e n c e w a s t h a t – c a ll i t M i n is t e r P u l e ’s p o lic y s a id t h e r e w il l b e s e t- to p b o x c o n t r o l . M in is t e r C a r i i m ’s p o li c y s a i d th e r e w il l b e s e t- t o p b o x c o n t r o l i f y o u w a n t it . Page 121 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e n y o u m u s t p a y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Th e n y o u p a y, i f y o u d o n o t w a n t it t h e r e w i ll n o t b e s e t- t o p b o x c o n t r o l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d w e e v e n – s o r r y C h a ir. A t t h e – a t S e n te c h a D o c t o r S e t h u m a M o h a p e h e i s a v e r y i n t e l li g e n t g u y h e a c t u a ll y c a m e u p a n d d r e w p ic t u r e s a n d s a id l is t e n o k a y t h i s is w h a t th e n e t w o r k is g o i n g t o l o o k li k e . H e r e a r e S A B C n e t w o r k – c h a n n e ls r u n n in g th r o u g h th e n e t w o r k , t o ta ll y u n e n c r y p t e d . H e r e is E- T V r u n n i n g 10 t h r o u g h t h e n e t w o r k , th r o u g h th e c o n d it i o n a l s y s t e m p a y m e n t b e c a u s e t h e y a r e g o i n g to n o w p a y u s a n d t h e y w i ll b e e n c r y p t e d . H e m a d e i t s o s i m p l e fo r p e o p le b u t n o t h e S A B C a n d M u l ti C h o ic e s a id n o w e w a n t n o t h i n g , n o th i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Now… M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B e c a u s e p e o p l e a r e g o i n g t o p a y. S o n o w I g o t to a d d it o n b e c a u s e t h e u s e r – t h e v i e w e r is g o in g to p a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h ic h is r u b b is h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t c e r ta in – t h o s e w h o w e r e o p p o s e d 20 t o t h is fr o m th e p o in t o f v ie w o f e n t i ti e s w a n t e d to b e n e fi t f r o m a s y s te m w i t h o u t p a y i n g a n y t h i n g . W a s t h a t t h e is s u e a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d it o r w a s th e is s u e a m u c h b i g g e r o n e m a y b e r e la t in g t o th e s u p p r e s s i o n o f c o m p e ti t io n o r w h a t e v e r ? M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C h a ir th e r e is – t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f is s u e s . F ir s t o f a l l i f y o u c a n i m a g i n e th e g o v e r n m e n t ’s d e c i d e d lis t e n Page 122 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 w e a r e g o i n g to g iv e 5 m il li o n f r e e s e t- t o p b o x e s to p o o r p e o p l e . So n o w w e p u t s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l i n a n d E - T V c o m e s a lo n g w h a t d o t h e y in h e r e t ? Th e y i n h e r i t 5 m i l li o n s u b s c r ib e r s s o M u l t i C h o i c e j u m p e d o n t h a t . Th is is r u b b is h . W e h a v e h a d t o g o a n d f i n d o u t o w n 5 m i ll io n s u b s c r i b e r s t h r o u g h m a r k e t in g a n d p r o g r a m m i n g a n d w h a t e v e r. E - T V is c o m i n g a lo n g , j u m p in g o n – a n d t h e y g e tt i n g 5 m i ll io n fr e e – fr e e s u b s c r i b e r s . S o t h e y o p p o s e d it v e h e m e n tl y a n d i n o n e w a y I c a n k i n d o f s a y j a w e ll t h a t is f in e b u t i t is – i t is o n e o f t h o s e th i n g s . T h o s e 5 m il li o n c u s t o m e r s a r e a l r e a d y t h e r e . S o r r y a n d t h e n I s a y to – I s a id t o 10 M u l ti C h o ic e t h e ir e n g in e e r s b u t lis t e n M u l ti C h o ic e y o u a r e a ls o g e t ti n g t h o s e 5 m il li o n c u s t o m e r s f o r fr e e b e c a u s e y o u a r e o n t h e s a m e n e t – y o u a r e c o m i n g o n t o th e s a m e n e t w o r k s o y o u g e t ti n g a n o th e r 5 m i ll io n c u s t o m e r s a n d y e s E - T V i s g e tt i n g b u t w e c h a n g e d t h e p o l ic y. M i n is te r C a r r i m c h a n g e d th e p o l ic y s o t h e y [i n d is t i n c t ] p a y. S o w h a t i s th e b ig is s u e ? W e l l I k n o w t h e b i g is s u e is p o li t ic s a n d th a t is n o t m y is s u e . I a m a n e n g i n e e r I k n o w th a t th is n e t w o r k w i ll w o r k i n s i m p l e t e r m s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is t h e is s u e p o l i tic s o r i s t h e is s u e c o r r u p t i o n ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a l o o k I d o n o t w a n t to s p e c u la t e b e t w e e n t h o s e t w o b u t y o u k n o w i t is o n e o f t h o s e th in g s s o m e b o d y y o u 20 d o n o t – th o s e b i g c o r p o r a t io n s d o n o t j u s t d o s o m e t h i n g b e c a u s e t h e y t h i n k o h w e ll w e j u s t g o in g to d o i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e r e h a s g o t to b e s o m e g iv e f o r u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h y d o t h e y d o it ? Page 123 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t I a m – li k e I s a y I d o n o t w a n t t o … CHAIRPERSON: So you say you do not have the facts to … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I d o n o t h a v e f a c ts t o s a y i t is c o r r u p ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s b u t … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : lis t e n w h y d o y o u d o it ? I h a v e t h e e n g in e e r i n g f a c t s t o s a y I m e a n i t is – y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to l o s e a n y th in g a n d m e a s a s i m p l e c i ti z e n li k e y o u a r e n o t – y o u g a in in g 5 10 m il li o n c u s t o m e r s i n th is c a s e , t h e y g a i n i n g c u s t o m e r s . C o m m o n s e n s e says geez. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I m e a n m y n e t w o r k is g o in g to g r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d i f I d o m y m a r k e t in g p r o p e r l y w it h m y e x tr a 5 mi ll i o n p o o r e r p e o p le I a m g o i n g to m a r k e t t o w a r d s t h a t l o t. I am going to get even more revenue. So I – common sense cannot put it i n p l a c e w h y t h e y d i d n o t d o i t a n d s p e c i fi c a ll y S A B C . H e r e y o u g o t 5 m il li o n p e o p l e i t h a s b e e n n o w t e n y e a r s t h a t t h i s t h in g h a s n o t b e e n 20 rolled out. T h e r e v e n u e s tr e a m s t h a t th e y h a v e l o s t . And now I am going to jump ahead because I am – I need to move – well … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I am – ja – I just want to more [i n d is t in c t] b e c a u s e t h e y s a i d w h a t a b o u t – w h y w o u l d y o u p u t a s e t- to p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m i n n o t j u s t b e c a u s e i t i s p o l ic y. T h e r e a r e s o m e Page 124 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 is s u e – s o m e b e n e fi t s fo r th a t . O n e o f t h e m i s t h a t a g a i n m y o p i n i o n b u t i t is a n e n g in e e r i n g o p in i o n . Th e S A B C i s l o o k in g f o r r e v e n u e s tr e a m s w h y c a n t h e y n o t b e c o m e a p a y T V o p e r a to r ? Yo u h a v e g o t a s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m i n – a c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m . I t i s t h e r e – i t is [ in d is ti n c t ] i t is w o r k i n g . P u t i t in a n d b e c o m e a p a y T V o p e r a t o r a n d b e i n o p p o s i ti o n t o M u l t i C h o i c e . N o , n o w e c a n n o t h a v e o p p o s i ti o n lik e t h is . T h a t i s n o t – w h a t is n o t fa ir ? S A B C is a p r iv a t e c o m p a n y w h y c a n t h e y n o t c o m p e te ? T h e s e c o n d th i n g is i f t h e y d o n o t w a n t t o b e c o m e a p a y T V O p e r a to r t h e r e is a t e c h n o lo g y c a l le d p a y - p e r - v i e w. 10 P a y - p e r - v i e w o n th e – in E u r o p e a n d A m e r i c a m u lt i b il li o n d o l l a r s . N o w t h e r e a r e s o m e p e o p l e i n S o u th A f r ic a - le t u s c a ll t h e m t h e B o e r e - th e y l ik e r u g b y b u t t h e y c a n n o t a ff o r d t o fly t o t h e W o r ld R u g b y C u p n o w a n d th e y - t h e y c a n n o t a ff o r d D S T V. S o th e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o s e e t h e R u g b y W o r l d C u p . SABC w i t h t h e c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m c a n t e l l t h e m l is t e n f o r 3 0 0 b u c k s w e w i ll p u t t h e c h a n n e l o n t o y o u r T V a n d y o u c a n w a tc h i t . D o th a t ti m e s th r e e o r f o u r m il li o n p e o p l e m il li o n s o f R a n d fl o w i n g i n th e r e . I d o n o t k n o w w h y t h e y d o n o t d o i t . Th a t i s w h y I s a id t h a t t h e s e t- to p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m h a s g o t s o m a n y a d v a n t a g e s . 20 I t is u n b e li e v a b l e . T h e n - t h e n M u lt i C h o ic e w il l c o m e a n d S A B C b u t to - w h a t w e h a v e t o d o i s w e h a v e t o p u t a li t t le c h i p in - in t h e d e c o d e r. Ye s y o u h a v e t o . I t c o s t $ 2 . 0 0 . I t is R 2 9 t o p u t i t in b u t y o u c a n g e n e r a te m il li o n s . R 2 9 , j a b u t w h o i s g o i n g t o p a y th a t? Th e t a x p a y e r. Ye s t h e t a x p a y e r. Ye s i t is a l o t o f m o n e y b u t t h e r e v e n u e k ic k b a c k o n e y o u d o y o u r m o d e l i t is a n o n - y o u d o n o t e v e n h a v e t o Page 125 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 think about it because you are going to make so much money out of it b u t t h e y f o u g h t a g a i n s t i t. So I - I know I get worked up because it ir r i t a te s m e . CHAIRPERSON: No, no I … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : When simple things can get - get solved by … C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t - t h a t i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t M r K r u g e r b e c a u s e a s I s a y y o u k n o w I w a s i n v o lv e d i n th e C o n s t i t u t i o n a l C o u r t w h e n t h e c a s e c a m e - a t le a s t I t h in k i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e fir s t o n e r e l a ti n g t o th is 10 p r o j e c t a n d I s e e m t o r e c a ll t h a t t h e r e w e r e j u s t c e r t a i n th i n g s t h a t d id n o t s e e m t o m a k e s e n s e in p o s it i o n s th a t w e r e b e i n g ta k e n b y c e r t a i n p e o p l e - e n ti t ie s a n d - a n d y o u w e r e i n v o lv e d in t h e p r o j e c t q u i te c lo s e ly. Yo u a r e a n e n g i n e e r y o u u n d e r s ta n d a l l o f t h e s e t h in g s . I t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t t h a t y o u s h a r e w i t h m e e x a c tl y y o u r o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h e c h a ll e n g e s a r e . W h a t is t h e p r o b l e m b e c a u s e y o u w il l - y o u w o u ld k n o w w h a t is p o s s ib le a n d w h a t is n o t p o s s i b le a n d b e c a u s e I a s k e d s o m e w i tn e s s e s l a s t w e e k a lr e a d y h e r e a b o u t th is is s u e . I s a id fr o m m y r e c o ll e c t io n o f t h e c o u r t p a p e r s in th a t m a t t e r 20 t h is w h o le t h i n g t h e G o v e r n m e n t b e g a n t o t a lk a b o u t p o l ic y - a b o u t th is p r o j e c t w a y b a c k in t h e m i d - 2 0 0 0 th e r e a b o u t a n d I t h i n k o n e w i t n e s s said 2002 … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n it i a l ly a n d I s a y w e a r e i n 2 0 1 9 a n d it s ti ll h a s n o t b e e n y o u k n o w - w h a t is g o i n g o n y o u k n o w. S o - a n d i t is i n t e r e s t in g Page 126 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t h a t y o u a r e te ll in g u s t h a t i n M o z a m b i q u e t h e y s ta r t e d a f t e r - a f t e r S o u th A fr ic a ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ja. Last year - 18 months they have b e e n g o in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 8 m o n t h s t h e y - t h e y w i ll b e d o n e . S o it i s i m p o r ta n t t h a t w e f in d o u t e x a c tl y w h a t i t is b e c a u s e if i t is c o r r u p t i o n . T h e n i t n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i t h v e r y u r g e n tly a n d p r o p e r l y b e c a u s e i n t h e m e a n t i m e I m e a n c o s ts a r e g o i n g u p . I m e a n in t h e e n d y o u k n o w c e r t a i n t h i n g s m ig h t b e f r e e t o th e e n d u s e r b u t p r o b a b l y s o m e b o d y 10 e ls e p a y s y o u k n o w. Yo u k n o w. S o - s o o f t e n w e s a y th i n g s a r e fr e e b u t t h e - t h e tr u th is t h a t s o m e b o d y e ls e p a y s s o t h a t y o u d o n o t p a y y o u k n o w. S o so I am very keen. So do not feel bad about being worked up because I w a n t to tr y a n d … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : R e a ll y u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i s g o i n g o n a n d y o u a r e t r y i n g y o u r b e s t t o p u t m e i n t h e p o s i ti o n t o u n d e r s t a n d . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H u h - u h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank …. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr Kruger in fact you h a v e a c t u a ll y d e a l t w i t h e v e r y t h in g i n y o u r s t a te m e n t … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . Page 127 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But there are just areas that I am going to ju s t t a k e y o u b a c k . S o t h a t y o u c a n j u s t … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: D e a l w it h th o s e j u s t th o r o u g h ly b u t a n s w e r i n g th e C h a i r p e r s o n y o u e n d e d u p j u s t d e a l in g w i th e v e r y t h i n g that M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t y o u d e a l t w it h b u t c a n I j u s t t a k e y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 2 5 a t p a g e 7 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t. I k n o w th a t y o u d i d to u c h 10 b r i e fl y o n th e - o n t h e u s e f u l f u n c ti o n s o f t h e S T B . C o u ld y o u j u s t e m p h a s is e th o s e t h a t y o u h a v e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 5 p l e a s e ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. I - I w o u l d a l s o l ik e t o C h a ir you - you were talking about corruption. Now again I cannot say there t h e r e w a s c o r r u p t io n b u t I a m i n t h e s i m p le c o m m o n s e n s e y o u s a y something went wrong. These set-top boxes they are simple devices and when I s t a r t e d th e r e t h e p o l ic y d o c u m e n t t h e G o v e r n m e n t h a d b u d g e t e d I t h i n k it w a s R 7 5 0 p e r s e t- t o p b o x m u l t ip li e d b y f iv e m i ll io n g iv e s y o u a b il li o n Rand and - and people were saying and now you want to go add 20 a n o t h e r R 2 9 - t h is is n o w d o w n t h e r o a d - f o r - f o r t h i s s e t - t o p b o x c o n tr o l b u t t h e r e is - e n d r e s u l t is t h a t t h e s e t - t o p b o x e s c a m e r ig h t d o w n a n d to d a y y o u c a n b u y t h e m f o r R 3 0 0 i n c lu d i n g s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l . S o Ms D in a P u l e c a l ls m e a n d s a y s l is t e n w e n e e d to g o o u t o n t e n d e r f o r t h is . C a n y o u p l e a s e a r r a n g e th e w h o l e th in g ? Page 128 of 169 As an 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 a d v is o r I c a n - I c a n d o t h e d o c u m e n ts b u t I c a n n o t p a r ti c i p a t e in i t . A c c o r d i n g t o t h e la w a p p a r e n t ly b u t I m e a n I d i d t h e te c h n ic a l document. I d i d t h e t e n d e r s p e c i fi c a t i o n s a n d w e s e n t t h e t e n d e r o u t a n d w e g o t a r e p ly fr o m I th i n k a b o u t 3 5 - o d d c o m p a n i e s a n d t h e G o v e r n m e n t ’s p o lic y w a s t o d e v e l o p t h e e l e c tr o n ic m a n u f a c tu r i n g in d u s tr y h e r e s p e c i fic a lly fo r s m a ll m a n u f a c t u r e r s b u t m o r e s p e c i fi c a ll y f o r Bl a c k e n tr e p r e n e u r s . S o w e m a d e s u r e th a t th is i s t h e a r e a th a t w e a r e g o in g t o g e t in t o to m a k e s u r e t h a t S o u t h A fr ic a n e n t r e p r e n e u r s s c o r e a n d t o th e 10 e x t e n t th a t w e w e n t t o t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n B u r e a u o f S t a n d a r d s a n d th e y s e t u p a s p e c i fi c s t a n d a r d th a t e v e r y s e t - t o p b o x s o l d i n S o u th A f r i c a m u s t c o m p l y w i t h t h is s t a n d a r d . S p e c if ic a l ly f o r t h e s u b s i d is e d - w e c a l l t h e m s u b s i d e d u n i ts fo r t h e - th e f iv e m il li o n t h a t th e G o v e r n m e n t is g iv e n a w a y. T h e y m u s t c o m p ly w i t h t h i s s t a n d a r d a n d e v e r y b o d y S A B C , M u l ti C h o ic e , E . T V, c o m m u n i ty o p e r a t o r s a l l a g r e e d - th e y a ll s ig n e d o ff t h e d o c u m e n t a t S A B S a n d in t h a t d o c u m e n t i t s a y s th e r e m u s t b e s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l . So the reason for that is if you do not protect t h e s e b o x e s y o u c a n g o a n d b u y a f o r e i g n i m p o r t e d b o x fo r li t e r a ll y 20 R20. T h a t w o u l d k i ll t h e l o c a l m a n u f a c t u r in g i n d u s tr y. S o w e - o u r g r o u p a t th e - a t th e - u n d e r M in is t e r Yu n u s C a r r i m a n d - a n d u n d e r D i n a P u l e w e r e a d a m a n t t h a t w e h a v e t o h a v e t h e s e t - t o p b o x c o n tr o l t o p r o t e c t t h e b o x e s . S o t o c o m e t o t h e l a w y e r ’s q u e s ti o n s i s o n e o f t h e b e n e fi ts o f p u t ti n g s e t- to p b o x c o n tr o l l in g is t o p r o te c t th e l o c a l Page 129 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 in d u s tr y fr o m d u m p i n g o f c h e a p s e t - s e t- t o p b o x e s . Now I know maybe some people say but I want a cheap s e t- t o p b o x . Th e p r o b l e m i s w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t p o o r e r p e o p l e i f s o m e t h i n g g o e s w r o n g - t h e y h a d t h is i n M a u r it i u s . T h e y ju s t o p e n e d u p a n d le t a n y b o d y b r i n g s e t- t o p b o x e s i n . W h e n th e th in g g o e s f a u l ty t h e y p h o n e d t h e G o v e r n m e n t c a ll d e s k a n d s a i d lis t e n m y b o x i s n o t working. I c a n n o t s e e S A B C a n d th e g u y o n t h e c a ll w h a t i s t h e n a m e o f t h e b o x a n d s a y s o h w e ll i t i s a - i t is Wa n g D a n g 1 a n d t h e y s a y w e 10 d o n o t h a v e t h i s o n o u r l is t . c a n n o t w a t c h T V. I d o n o t k n o w a n d t h a t g u y is l e f t. S o w e c o m e u p w i th a s t a n d a r d . He A ll t h e b o x e s c o m p ly w i t h th a t . W e p u t s e t - t o p b o x c o n t r o l i n . Yo u c a n n o t b r i n g y o u r b o x i n to t h is c o u n tr y u n le s s y o u t a k e i t to S A B C a n d g e t i t v e r if i e d . S o th a t w a s th e - t h a t is t h e o n e b e n e fi t o f h a v in g s e t- to p b o x c o n tr o l is t h a t w e c a n - w e c a n k e e p o u r l o c a l m a n u f a c t u r in g i n d u s t r y u n d e r c o n tr o l . T h e o t h e r t h i n g is a n d t h e y s o u n d s i m p l e f o r p e o p le l ik e u s h e r e m a y b e a l l o f u s th a t a s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m h a s g o t a n u m b e r o f in t e l li g e n t s y s te m s . N u m b e r o n e w e c a n s e n d i n f o r m a ti o n t o people. 20 I t is c a ll e d a m e s s a g in g s y s te m b u t y o u c a n s e n d i t b e c a u s e w h e n - w h e n y o u g e t a s e t- t o p b o x a n d y o u g o p ic k i t u p a t t h e p o s t o ffic e w h i c h is t h e w a y w e w e r e g o in g t o d is tr i b u te i t . Yo u f il l i n a f o r m s o w e h a v e g o t a l l y o u r d e t a i ls . I t i s o n t h e s e t - i t i s o n t h e s u b s c r i b e r m a n a g e m e n t s y s t e m p a r t o f t h e c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m c o m p u t e r there is a subscriber management system. Page 130 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 S o w e h a v e g o t y o u r d e t a i ls a n d w e k n o w t h a t y o u s p e a k Z u lu a n d w e k n o w t h a t g u y s p e a k s S o th o . H e i s E n g lis h . H e i s A f r i k a a n s . W e k n o w t h a t. N o w th e G o v e r n m e n t w a n t s t o h a v e e l e c t io n s . T h e y c a n s e n d o u t i n fo r m a ti o n i n t h e l a n g u a g e o f th a t p e r s o n to s a y l is te n o n t h a t d a t e w e a r e h a v i n g e le c ti o n s y o u g o th e r e - v e r y v a l u a b le i n f o r m a t io n . To m e t h a t i s a b e n e fi t fo r t h e G o v e r n m e n t . T h a t is w h y y o u s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l i n . N o t o n ly th a t . I f th e r e is a d is a s te r c o m i n g i n a n a r e a y o u c a n s e n d d is a s t e r r e p o r ts i n t h a t a r e a ’s la n g u a g e o r th e i n d iv i d u a l t o s a y lis t e n t h e r e is a d i s a s t e r 10 c o m i n g . Yo u n e e d to g e t o u t a n d y o u c a n g o t o t h is a n d th is p l a c e . CHAIRPERSON: A n d - a n d th o s e m e s s a g e s c o m e o u t o n - o n t h e s c r e e n - o n t h e ir … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O n t h e s c r e e n , j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e ir T V s c r e e n s ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O n t h e s c r e e n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o y o u w ill s e e a li t tl e - a li t t le - I d o n o t k n o w t h o s e w h o h a v e g o t D S T V s o m e ti m e s y o u g e t a li t t le m e s s a g e t h e r e a l i t tl e e n v e l o p e . I t is a m e s s a g e . Yo u g o a n d c l ic k o n i t a n d i t 20 t e ll s y o u . S o - s o y o u c a n d o t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o - w h a t e ls e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , y o u h a v e - y o u h a v e t o u c h e d - y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th 2 5 . 1 . Yo u h a v e d e a l t 2 5 . 2 w h e n t h e r e is a n e m e r g e n c y o r y o u k n o w w h e t h e r a n d t h e n e le c ti o n s y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th a n d t h e n Page 131 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 le t u s d e a l w i th - th e n w i th - a l t h o u g h y o u d i d t o u c h u p o n i t b e i n g a b l e t o d is a b le f o r e i g n i n t r u s i o n y o u d e a l w it h t h a t in p a r a g r a p h 2 7 . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H u h - u h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n o t h e r f u n c ti o n o f t h e s e t- to p … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B o x c o n tr o l s y s te m … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. B e fo r e y o u d o … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: D o t h a t j u s t t o m a k e s u r e I f o l lo w. I thought that w h e n y o u - w h e n y o u s t a r t e d y o u s a i d w e a c t u a ll y d o n o t n e e d t h e s e t- t o p b o x e s . S o u t h A f r i c a d i d n o t n e e d t h e m … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o f S E N T E C H . I m is u n d e r s t o o d t h a t p a r t. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o , n o , n o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o r r y C h a ir. E v e r y - e v e r y h o u s e h o l d in S o u th A fr ic a w i th a n y k in d o f T V … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : M u s t h a v e a s e t- t o p b o x . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h e th e r y o u h a v e - i f y o u g e t o n e fr o m - fr o m M u l ti C h o ic e t h a t is y o u r c h o ic e . Yo u p a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t i f i t is Page 132 of 169 fr o m th e f r e e - t o - a ir 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 channels … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Yo u c a n c o l l e c t i t a t t h e p o s t o ffic e - t h e in d i g e n o u s p e o p l e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O r t h o s e w h o d o n o t t h e y h a v e t o b u y it fr o m … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : D i o n s o r w h e r e v e r b u t e v e r y b o d y m u s t 10 h a v e a s e t- to p b o x . S o r r y. I - I C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : M a y b e I f a i le d to m e n ti o n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a t t h a t ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e speaking and I must have misunderstood you … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O h . C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I g o t th e i m p r e s s io n t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g w a s S o u th A fr ic a s e e m s t o b e o b s e s s e d w i t h t h i s id e a o f s e t- t o p b o x e s … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e r e is a s y s t e m … 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i s m a y b e m o r e m o d e r n i s e d m u c h b e t te r a n d if y o u - i f y o u u s e t h a t s y s t e m w h i c h I - I u n d e r s to o d to b e th e S E N T E C H System … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u u s e t h a t s y s t e m y o u d o n o t r e a ll y n e e d t h is . Page 133 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t t h a t is w h a t … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t tr u e ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o r r y. N o , n o t h a t is n o t tr u e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Because some of the - some of the T V s t h a t th e p o o r e r p e o p l e h a v e g o t t h e y a r e v e r y o l d a n d th e y s ti ll h a v e w h a t th e y c a l l a n a n a l o g u e i n t e r f a c e w h e r e - w h e r e y o u p l u g y o u r 10 antenna into. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d n o w w e n e e d th e s e t- t o p b o x to convert to digital … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d s t u ff . CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o j a . Yo u d o n e e d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o s o r r y. Th e o th e r b e n e f it w h ic h i t is li n k e d t o is … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d i t i s i n th e p o lic y d o c u m e n t o f S o u th A fr ic a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 134 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Is th a t y o u n e e d t o b e a b l e t o d is a b l e s e t- t o p b o x e s th a t a r e s t o l e n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d y o u c a n o n ly d o th a t b y h a v i n g a s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh, hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o w s u b s e q u e n t to t h a t a n o t h e r n e w M i n is t e r c a m e i n M i n i s te r M u t h a m b i a n d - a n d s h e g o t s o m e e n g i n e e r s fr o m M u l ti C h o ic e … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h o c a m e u p w i t h t h i s - I d o n o t k n o w if I m u s t c a l l i t th e i n g e n io u s id e a … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s te m . B u t y o u d o n o t a c t u a l ly n e e d th is W e c a n ju s t ( in d is ti n c t) a b i t o f s o f t w a r e . T h e y c a l l i t M u l ti p le x Ve r i fi c a t io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d i t i s a s i m p l e s o f t w a r e w h ic h c a n b e h a c k e d a t a n y t i m e a n d - a n d t h a t w i ll d is a b l e t h e - t h e s e t- t o p b o x 20 c o n tr o l a n d t h a t i s w h a t t h e y w e r e g o in g t o i m p l e m e n t a s S o u t h A fr i c a ’s s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : R u b b is h . S o I d o n o t a g r e e w i th t h a t s y s te m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ta lk m o r e a b o u t t h e m e r i ts - m e r i ts a n d Page 135 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 d e m e r i ts o f w h a t t h e y c a m e u p w i t h . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e m e r i t s a n d d e m e r i ts o f ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O f w h a t t h e y c a m e u p w i t h . T h e i r - t h e ir p r o p o s a l. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O h . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e in g e n i o u s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : As I say the software they came up w i t h fo r s e t- to p b o x - fi r s t o f a ll - I a s s u m e th e M i n i s t e r ’s t e a m . T h e y s a i d b u t m e s s a g i n g - m e s s a g i n g i s q u i t e s i m p l e . I f y o u w a tc h y o u r T V every day you see at the bottom … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Th a t li t t le - t h e y c a l l it ti c k e r ta p e r u n n in g t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W e c a n s e n d m e s s a g in g th e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a t d e f e a t s t h e o b j e c t iv e o f s e n d i n g it in - i m a g i n g s e n d i n g 11 l a n g u a g e s o n t h a t t ic k e r t a p e t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : 20 I t h in k y o u w il l p r o b a b ly c o n f u s e h a l f of … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Yo u p r o b a b ly c o n f u s e a l l th e W h i t e p e o p l e b u t c e r t a i n l y m o s t o f - a l o t o f th e B l a c k p e o p l e w i ll b e c o n fu s e d because so many languages … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 136 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d I t h i n k y o u w il l lo s e th e m e s s a g e b u t th a t w a s t h e ir i d e a . S o w e d o n o t n e e d a s e t- t o p b o x c o n t r o l b e c a u s e w e w i ll s e n d o u r m e s s a g in g v ia t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e M u l t iC h o i c e e n g i n e e r s … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I - I a m a s s u m i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o a r e s a y i n g t h a t i n t e r ms o f y o u r ( in t e r v e n e s ) . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I t h i n k t h e S A B C e n g i n e e r s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e y - th e y u s e d s o m e a d v i s o r s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Oh, some advisors, yes. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a , l e t u s u s e th a t o r th e y u s e d s o m e a d v is o r s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : To g i v e t h e m … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H o w d o w e k i n d o f - i n m y o p i n io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H o w d o w e b y p a s s t h i s p o l ic y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t n o t b y p a s s i t i n t e r m s o f w e s ti ll s t ic k in g to t h e b a s ic c la u s e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o w e s a y in g s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l , y e s . W e w i ll d o M u l ti p l e x Ve r i fic a ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 137 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h ic h is n o t a s e t- t o p b o x c o n t r o l . I t is j u s t a p i e c e o f s o f t w a r e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t - b u t it s ti ll c o m p li e s . I t s ti ll s e t w e a r e s ti ll c o n tr o ll i n g t h e s e t- t o p b o x . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O h - o h t h e p o l ic y s a y s m e s s a g in g . O h , j a w e w il l j u s t s e n d i n g m e s s a g i n g a t t h e b o t to m t h e n . S o th e y s til l c o m p ly … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d th a t is h o w - h o w t h is k i n d o f thing … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : G o t s t u c k s o m e w h e r e a l o n g t h e r o a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . A p a r t fr o m t h e w e a k n e s s e s o f t h a t p r o p o s a l t h a t y o u h a v e - th e s a i d - w h a t o t h e r w e a k n e s s e s in th is p r o p o s a ls o f th e S A B C a d v is o r s t h a t - t h a t t h e y c a m e u p w i t h ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W e l l I t h i n k th e th i n g is i t c o m e s b a c k 20 t o a n d I t h i n k th a t i s t h e w h o l e e m p h a s is o f my - m y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : In p u t h e r e C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Is e n c r y p t io n o r n o n - e n c r y p t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 138 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I f y o u d o n o t e n c r y p t b a s i c s y s te m s lik e y o u r W h a ts A p p th a t y o u u s e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Is fu ll y e n c r y p t e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o w t h e r e is t w o w a y s o f d o i n g e n c r y p ti o n . Yo u c a n d o w h a t th e y c a ll e n d e n c r y p ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O r y o u c a n d o e n d to e n d e n c r y p ti o n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : E n d e n c r y p t io n m e a n s l ik e fr o m t h e tr a n s m i tt e r … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : To o n e s id e o f t h a t o t h e r tr a n s m i tt e r you can encrypt. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : L e t m e g i v e y o u a n e x a m p le . I f w e g o b a c k t o th is c o n d it i o n a l a c c e s s . Say for example you have not paid y o u r b il l … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A t E T - a g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A t M u l t iC h o ic e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e c o n d i ti o n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m … Page 139 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W i ll s e n d o u t w h a t t h e y c a l l a n e n t i tl e m e n t c o n tr o l m e s s a g e … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d it e n c r y p ts i t . J u s t h e r e b y th e c o m p u te r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : And it sends o u t th is e n c r y p te d m e s s a g e o v e r t h e n e t w o r k . I t d o e s n o t e n c r y p t it o n t h e n e t w o r k . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h e n i t g e t s t o t h e o t h e r s i d e th e s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l - a g t h e s e t- to p b o x … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : D e c r y p ts it … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d s a y s l is t e n th is s e t - t o p b o x h a s n o t m e t th e c o n d i ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : 20 To b e s w it c h e d o n b e c a u s e y o u h a v e n o t p a i d y o u r b i ll . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o i t t e l ls t h e s e t - t o p b o x d o n o t s w it c h m e o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o y o u s i t a t h o m e w h y is i t n o t Page 140 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 w o r k i n g . W e ll y o u h a v e n o t p a i d y o u r b ill . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Yo u t h e n g o a n d p a y y o u r b il l … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d t h e c o n d i t io n a l a c c e s s s y s t e m t h e n s e n d s o u t a th i n g c a ll e d E C M . A n E n t it le m e n t C o n tr o l … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : M e s s a g e . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It e n c r y p t s it . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S e n d s i t o n t o t h e n e tw o r k . It does n o t e n c r y p t . I t i s a lr e a d y e n c r y p t e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d i t s e n d s i t t o t h e s e t- t o p b o x … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d s a y s lis t e n t h i s g u y h a s p a i d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Yo u c a n n o w … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S w i t c h h i m o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d th a t is w h a t i t d o e s . t h e e n d e n c r y p ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 141 of 169 S o t h a t is 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It is j u s t o n t h e e n d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d - a n d a t t h e s e t- t o p b o x . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t b e f o r e y o u m o v e o n is th a t w h a t y o u d e s c r ib e d a t p a g e 2 4 ? Yo u h a v e a d i a g r a m t h e r e . W o u ld t h a t t a l k to …? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d y o u ju s t - c o u l d y o u j u s t t a k e 10 t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o t h a t p a g e ? P a g e 2 4 - 2 - 4 . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o y o u t h e n g e t e n d t o e n d e n c r y p t io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h i c h i s f u l ly e n c r y p t e d a c r o s s th e n e t w o r k a n d t h e r e a s o n y o u d o t h a t - j a th a t - t h a t i n e s s e n c e i f - i f y o u lo o k a t t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Th e r e w e h a v e i n p u t . We have e n c r y p ti o n a n d n o e n c r y p ti o n a n d t h e n t h e s e t- t o p b o x s i ts w i t h th e 20 c o n tr o l c h ip i n s id e it a n d - a n d y o u r c h a n n e ls c o m e o u t t h e o t h e r s i d e for free. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t - I h a v e lo s t m y t r a in o f t h o u g h t for a minute. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o y o u w e r e s ti ll d e s c r i b i n g o n e - t h e n Page 142 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 s o m e b o d y h a s ( in t e r v e n e s ) . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e e n d t o e n d … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : E n c r y p t io n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ja. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : That m eans from when the - for e x a m p l e w h e r e w e a r e s i t ti n g n o w t h e g u y - th e r e is t h e c a m e r a . H e i s 10 taking a movie of me. As s o o n a s i t g o e s o u t t h e c a m e r a i n to h i s M u l ti p l e x w e e n c r y p t . W e t h e n s e n d t h a t a c r o s s t o S E N T E C H f u ll y e n c r y p te d . W h y d o I s a y fu ll y e n c r y p t e d a n d w h a t is th e b e n e f i t? S a y f o r e x a m p l e - c a n I u s e p o l i ti c s a s a - o u r p o li t ic a l s y s te m … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : As a n e x a m p le . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Say you have got - I have been a member of the ANC for 40 years or nearly 40 years but I want to do s o m e t h i n g a g a i n s t th e D A . S o n o w y o u a n d I C h a i r w e a r e s i t ti n g a n d t a lk in g I s a y lis t e n th e D A w e n e e d t o s a b o t a g e t h e m a n d - a n d I a m 20 t a lk in g t o y o u n o w. S o i t is g o i n g o n t h e m o v i e b u t I h a v e e n c r y p te d i t . I t g o e s o u t a n d t h e r e i s s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e D A w h o is a n e n g i n e e r i n g wizard. H e is s i t ti n g t h e r e w i t h a r e c e i v e r w h ic h c a n r e c e i v e a l l t h e s e fr e q u e n c i e s a n d h e t a k e s t h i s a n d h e s a y s li s te n w h a t R o y Kr u g e r s a i d a n d h e r u s h e s o ff t o h is s id e a n d s a i d li s t e n c h e c k t h i s li n e . T h e y s p y Page 143 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 a n d s o e ffe c t iv e l y t h e y a r e s p y in g o n u s . S o r r y t h a t w a s a - i f i t is n o t e n c r y p te d b u t if i t is e n c r y p te d th e y c a n n o t g e t th a t i n f o r m a ti o n . S o a n u n e n c r y p t e d n e t w o r k i s v e r y e a s y to s a b o t a g e b e c a u s e p e o p l e c a n ju s t c o m e in o n t o y o u r fr e q u e n c ie s t a k e o v e r a n d s t a r t u s i n g t h e n e tw o r k b u t i f y o u h a v e g o t a s e t- to p b o x c o n t r o l in h e r e h e c a n n o t d o i t u n l e s s h e h a s a lr e a d y h a c k e d th e c o n d i ti o n a n d a c c e s s s y s t e m w h ic h b y th e n - w e ll t h e r e i s - th e r e is p r o b l e m s o n th e w h o l e c o m p u t e r n e t w o r k b u t e n c r y p ti o n is t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t t h i n g . W h a t s A p p u s e s i t. 10 F a c e b o o k u s e s it a n d t h e r e is p r e s s u r e b e c a u s e p e o p le a r e s t e a l in g p e o p le ’s p e r s o n a l i n fo r m a ti o n b e c a u s e it is not encrypted. S o y o u w i ll s e e t o d a y h e n c e M o z a m b i q u e , K e n y a , N a m i b ia e v e r y b o d y is p u t ti n g i n e n c r y p t io n a n d t h e b i g m o v i e h o u s e s a r e i n s is ti n g o n it . Th a n k s C h a ir. I t h i n k t h a t is a l l I h a v e g o t t o s a y o n t h is . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o - s o c o m in g b a c k t o t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n s i t u a t io n w h e n y o u l e f t w h a t w a s th e G o v e r n m e n t ’s p o s i ti o n ? I s a y G o v e r n m e n t a s i n t h e M i n is t e r o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n ’s p o s it io n w h o e v e r h e o r s h e w a s a t t h e ti m e y o u l e f t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s . W h a t w a s t h e ir 20 - w e r e th e y w a n ti n g e n c r y p t io n ? D i d t h e y - d id t h e y n o t w a n t e n c r y p ti o n ? W h a t w a s th e p o s i ti o n ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : M i n is t e r Yu n u s C a r r i m . T h e M i n is t e r a t t h e ti m e w a s - is H e p u t t h e n e w p o li c y to P a r li a m e n t a n d h is p o s i ti o n w a s t h a t w e a r e g o i n g f o r s e t- t o p b o x c o n t r o l a n d w e w i ll h a v e e n c r y p ti o n o r n o e n c r y p t i o n b u t if y o u w a n t i t y o u w i ll p a y f o r i t a n d t h a t Page 144 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 w a s t h e fi n a l p o lic y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o h is p o s i ti o n w a s k in d o f a c o m p r o m is e ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : M in is t e r D i n a P u le ’s p o s i ti o n w a s e n c r y p ti o n … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t is i t a n d M i n i s t e r C a r r i m ’s p o s i t io n w a s w e ll w e w i ll h a v e e n c r y p ti o n b u t i f y o u w a n t - i f y o u d o n o t w a n t to e n c r y p ti o n t h e n y o u c a n h a v e y o u r n o n - e n c r y p t io n b u t t h e n y o u m u s t p a y f o r it . 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . I t is e x a c tl y - t h a t p i c t u r e t h a t y o u see on page 24 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It s h o w s y o u E . T V C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : It goes through that orange block. It s a y s e n c r y p t io n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B e c a u s e t h e y w a n te d e n c r y p ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S A B C , C o m m u n it y T V a n d F u t u r e T V t h e y d id n o t w a n t e n c r y p ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S o y o u b y p a s s i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a t i s w h a t w e o ff e r e d th e m i n t h e Page 145 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 fi n a l p o li c y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : A n d th a t i s h o w - I a m s u r e th a t i s s ti ll h o w i t is to d a y. I a m n o t s u r e P a r li a m e n t c h a n g e d t h a t p o li c y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . S o a n d a g a i n y o u s a i d i t is t h e n o e n c r y p ti o n r e g i m e t h a t is o p e n to e a s y s a b o ta g e ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H u h - u h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C o r r e c t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a n k y o u m a ’ a m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d y o u a ls o m e n ti o n i t i s o p e n t o s a b o t a g e a n d t e r r o r i s t - t e r r o r is t a t t a c k s a n d a l l o f t h a t ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . T h e n y o u h a v e a lr e a d y d e a l t w i t h - w i t h M u l t i C h o i c e - M u l t iC h o i c e ’s a t ti t u d e a n d E . T V ’s a t ti t u d e . T h e n y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d a n d M r M o ts o e n e n g h a s b e e n g iv e n w e c a l l t h e R u le 3 .3 . N o t ic e s i n te r m … 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : S a y t h a t a g a in . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u h a v e - y o u m e n t io n e d Mr M o t s o e n e n g in y o u r s t a t e m e n t . A m I c o r r e c t? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a , j a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d h e h a s b e e n g i v e n n o t ic e a n d h e d i d te s t i fy y e s t e r d a y th a t h e w o u ld h a v e p r e fe r r e d t h a t y o u te s t i fy fir s t Page 146 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 b e c a u s e y o u r e f e r r e d t o h i m i n y o u s t a te m e n t . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . I r e f e r t o Mr M o ts o e n e n g b e c a u s e o n m y i n v e s t ig a ti o n o n - o n w h y d o e s t h e S A B C a ll o f a s u d d e n c h a n g e it s m i n d i t th e n t u r n e d o u t t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g h a d s i g n e d th is c o n tr a c t w i t h M u l t iC h o ic e w h e r e b y M u l t i C h o i c e b a n n e d t h e S A B C fr o m u s in g s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l s y s t e m . S o th a t i s w h y I m e n t io n e d t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th a t a s y o u c a l l i t … M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H u h - u h . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e s e t- to p b o x e s t h a t h a d b e e n i n te n d e d to b e u s e d w o u ld n o l o n g e r b e a l lo w e d . Is th a t r ig h t? Is th a t w h a t y o u s a y ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h e r e w o u l d b e n o e n c r y p ti o n a ll o w e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w o u ld b e n o e n c r y p ti o n a l l o w e d ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ja. T h e s e t- to p b o x e s w il l s ti ll b e used … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : B u t t h e r e is n o e n c r y p ti o n in i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is w h a t I w a n t e d t o u n d e r s ta n d . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . 20 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. So the - the agreement as you understand it t h a t S A B C s ig n e d w i th M u l ti C h o ic e th r o u g h M r M o t s o e n e n g i n s is t e d t h a t t h e S A B C w o u ld h a v e t o u s e n o n - e n c r y p t io n ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t i s - t h a t w o u l d o p e n t h e S A B C u p i n t e r m s o f t h is p r o j e c t to v e r y e a s y b u t s e r i o u s s a b o t a g e o f t h e s y s t e m ? Page 147 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d th e o t h e r p o i n t th a t y o u m a k e i n p a r a g r a p h 4 1 if y o u c o u l d j u s t t u r n t o t h a t p a g e a n d th e n s u m m a r i s e w h a t y o u - y o u c o n v e y t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e . 10 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O n p a g e 4 1 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . P a r a g r a p h 4 1 p a g e 11 . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : P a r a g r a p h 4 1 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o r r y. P a g e 11 p a r a g r a p h 4 1 a n d y o u a lr e a d y m e n t i o n e d w h a t y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 4 0 b u t c o u l d y o u j u s t d e a l w i t h w h a t y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 4 1 . I t h in k t h e s e a r e t h e - th is is a consequence of - of that agreement. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a . I t h i n k w e h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t t h e fr e e - t o - a i r … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : W h e r e - w h e r e M u l t iC h o ic e w a s u s in g t h is a s o n e o f t h e c o n v i n c i n g s t a te m e n ts t h a t - t o t h e S A B C a n d i n fa c t t o a l l t h e c o m m u n i ty T V b r o a d c a s te r s t h a t fr e e - t o - a ir w o u l d n o l o n g e r b e fr e e - to - a ir i f th e y in c l u d e e n c r y p ti o n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . S o - a n d t h e n i f y o u g o to - I j u s t w a n t - s o th a t I m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u h a v e c o v e r e d e v e r y t h i n g i n … Page 148 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Yo u r s t a t e m e n t . Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y d e a l t w i t h t h e l e tt e r s o f s u p p o r t t h a t M s M o k h o b o a n d M s E l l e n Ts h a b a l a la h a d s u b m i t t e d s u p p o r t in g t h e e n c r y p ti o n m o d e l . Then you say s o m e t h i n g in p a r a g r a p h 4 7 w h e r e y o u d e a l w i th t h e c h a n g e o f M i n is t e r s . Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y m e n ti o n e d t h is s li g h t ly b u t t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u s a y i n th e la s t t w o s e n te n c e s . C o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t y o u c o n v e y t h e r e ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : P a r a g r a p h 4 7 ? 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Paragraph 47 page 12. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : J a , j a . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : T h a t is w h y I m e n t io n e d t h a t e a r l i e r t h a t w h e n - w h e n t h e n e w M i n is t e r - M i n i s t e r F a i t h M u t h a m b i c a m e i n t h e y t h e n w i th t h e S A B C f u lly s u p p o r t e d c h a n g i n g o r in f a c t n o t i m p l e m e n ti n g s e t- t o p b o x c o n tr o l a n d t h a t i s p u b l ic k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h e M i n is t e r t h e n w e n t a g a i n - a g a i n s t t h e A N C p o li c y o r t h e - o r t h e G o v e r n m e n t p o l ic y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and then … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h M i n is t e r w a s t h a t n o w ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : F a i t h M u t h a m b i . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. The - as you understood it the Government p o li c y a n d th e A N C p o l ic y w a s i n fa v o u r o f e n c r y p ti o n ? Page 149 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ye s . Ye s s ir. CHAIRPERSON: But M i n is t e r M u t h a m b i t o o k an - the d i ff e r e n t approach? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s a id t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o e n c r y p ti o n ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : C o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W e ll I - I m u s t j u s t s a y I m e a n I h a v e a lr e a d y s a i d t h a t I w a s i n v o l v e d in h e a r i n g th e m a t te r th a t c a m e t o t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t r e l a ti n g t o l it i g a t io n a r o u n d th is m a t te r. I - I c o u ld 10 n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y i f t h e G o v e r n m e n t p o l i c y a n d t h e A N C p o l ic y w a s t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t e n c r y p ti o n w a s t h e r ig h t w a y - w a s t h e w a y t o g o h o w t h e r e c o u l d b e a M i n is t e r w h o is a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C w h o is d e p l o y e d b y th e A N C i n G o v e r n m e n t w h o is p a r t o f th e G o v e r n m e n t h o w s u c h a M i n is t e r c o u ld a ff o r d to g o a g a in s t b o t h G o v e r n m e n t p o lic y a n d t h e A N C p o li c y a n d s ti ll r e m a in M i n i s te r. Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ? M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : I a m e n g i n e e r b u t I u n d e r s t a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n i t - i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e t o m e . I f - if t h e r u l i n g - I m e a n t h e r u li n g p a r ty s a y s a l l th e ti m e t h a t i t d e p l o y s p e o p l e in G o v e r n m e n t … 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s a y s d e p l o y s e v e n t h e P r e s i d e n t . T h e Pr e s id e n t o f t h e c o u n t r y w o u l d b e t h e P r e s id e n t o f th e r u l in g p a r t y a n d h o w d o y o u h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e a M in is t e r w h o i s s u b je c t to th e A N C w h o is s u b j e c t to t h e G o v e r n m e n t o f w h ic h h e i s p a r t c o n ti n u e t o g o a g a i n s t G o v e r n m e n t p o l ic y a n d A N C p o l ic y a n d n o t h i n g h a p p e n s . Page 150 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 S h e c o n t in u e s to b e M i n i s t e r. W e l l I a m s u r e t h e r e w i ll b e m o r e p e o p l e w h o w il l c o m e h e r e a n d M in is t e r M u th a m b i w il l - w ill c o m e h e r e a l s o a n d p u t h e r s i d e o f t h e s to r y a n d m a y b e s h e w il l b e a b l e to explain. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : H m , j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e - m a y b e y o u m ig h t t h i n k t h a t w i t h th e p o s i ti o n s h e t o o k w a s a g a i n s t G o v e r n m e n t p o li c y, m a y b e s h e w o u l d b e a b l e t o s h o w t h a t i t w a s n o t a g a i n s t g o v e r n m e n t p o l ic y, e v e n i f i t w a s – i t m a y h a v e b e e n a g a i n s t t h e A N C p o l ic y, I d o n ’ t k n o w, b u t i t i s s o m e th in g th a t 10 I a m v e r y i n t e r e s te d i n g e t ti n g e n l ig h t e n m e n t o n , b e c a u s e i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a t i o n s t h e r e h a s b e e n a h ig h t u r n o v e r o f M i n is t e r s w il e t h is w h o l e p r o j e c t l in g e r s o n . N o w y o u t e l l m e , a n d y o u a r e i n v o lv e d i n a s i m il a r p r o j e c t i n M o z a m b i q u e , y o u t e l l m e t h a t in M o z a m b i q u e 1 8 m o n t h s w a s e n o u g h f o r it t o – f o r t h i s p r o j e c t to b e i m p l e m e n t e d , w h e r e i n S o u th A f r ic a i t h a s b e e n a g e s , w e – i t h a s b e e n a g e s a n d t o t h e e x te n t th a t th is w h o le p r o j e c t w a s i n p a r t i n te n d e d t o b e n e fi t p o o r p e o p l e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m e a n s th o s e p o o r p e o p l e a r e n o t b e n e fi t ti n g , t h e r e 20 is n o s e r v ic e d e li v e r y a n d th e q u e s t io n i s w h y, a n d i f i t i s tr u e a n d I d o n o t k n o w i f i t is tr u e a t th is s t a g e , I w i ll h e a r e v i d e n c e , b u t if i t i s t r u e that M in is t e r Muthambi to o k a p o s i ti o n th a t was against b o th g o v e r n m e n t p o l ic y a n d a g a in s t t h e r u li n g p a r ty ’s p o l ic y t h e n I t h i n k b o th le a d e r s o f g o v e r n m e n t a n d le a d e r s o f t h e A N C a t t h e t i m e m a y h a v e a lo t t o e x p l a in , t o s a y h o w d o w e h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e s u c h a n Page 151 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 i m p o r t a n t p r o je c t h a s b e e n d e c i d e d u p o n , lo ts o f m o n e y i n v o lv e d a n d t h e r e i s ju s t s o m e r a m b li n g t h a t i s g o i n g o n a n d a t a c e r t a i n s ta g e a p o s i ti o n is ta k e n b y a M i n i s t e r th a t g o e s a g a i n s t G o v e r n m e n t p o l ic y a n d so on. As I say I do not know whether it was against Government p o li c y a n d I d o n ’ t t h a t it w a s a g a in s t t h e A N C p o l ic y b u t I d o k n o w t h a t I h a v e r e a d t h i n g s t o t h a t e ff e c t , a n d t h e r e l e v a n t p e o p l e w il l c o m e a n d w i ll e x p l a i n . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir, a n d th e n l a s tl y y o u m e n ti o n s o m e o f th e b e n e fi t s w h ic h y o u d e a l w i t h a t p a r a g r a p h 4 9 w h ic h w o u l d e n a b l e c i t iz e n s to g e t i n fo r m a ti o n r e l a ti n g t o a p p l ic a ti o n s f o r I D d o c u m e n t s , v is a ’s a n d p a s s p o r ts , i t is a n a s p e c t t h a t y o u d i d n o t m e n ti o n . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : N o , I w a s j u s t s a y i n g a b o u t a l l th e d i ff e r e n t t y p e s o f m e s s a g i n g t h a t – to b e n e f i t p o o r p e o p le b y s e n d in g m e s s a g e s y o u k n o w f o r e x a m p l e I s t a y i n G e o r g e , w h ic h is a n i c e a r e a b u t – a n d I d o s o m e w o r k in th e c o m m u n it y, a n d t h e r e i s a li t t le , c a l l it a s q u a t te r c a m p u p th e r o a d fr o m m y h o u s e a n d w h e n I s a y u p t h e r o a d it is a b o u t e ig h t k il o m e tr e s a n d I g o th e r e a n d I s a y t o p e o p l e lis t e n y o u 20 n e e d to v o t e a n d t h e y s a y b u t w e h a v e n o t g o t a n ID b o o k a n d y o u k in d o f s a y w e l l y o u a n d I a s a n o r m a l p e r s o n w e ll w h y d o n ’ t y o u j u s t g o to H o m e A ff a ir s a n d g e t o n e . W e ll I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u h a v e e v e r w a l k e d e i g h t k i l o m e tr e s , g o n e to H o m e A ff a ir s , w a lk e d e i g h t k i l o m e t r e s b a c k , t h e n y o u w a i t t h r e e o r fo u r w e e k s , H o m e A ff a ir s is q u i t e e ff ic ie n t, b u t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a p o s t Page 152 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 b o x , s o t h e y d o n ’ t k n o w h o w t o g e t t h e – t h a t t h e I D b o o k is r e a d y a n d it l ie s t h e r e a n d li e s th e r e , if y o u g o t o m o s t H o m e A ff a ir s th e y ’v e g o t t h o u s a n d s a n d th o u s a n d s o f I D b o o k s b e c a u s e p e o p le d o n ’ t k n o w t h e y are ready and they don’t get informed, but if they are then you have to g e t u p a n d w a lk a n o t h e r e i g h t k il o m e tr e s , g e t y o u r b o o k a n d w a lk e i g h t k il o m e tr e s b a c k . F o r p e o p l e w i t h c a r s it ’s v e r y e a s y b u t f o r p o o r p e o p le i t is n o t, a n d t h e s e t u p w a s c o n tr o l s y s t e m v i a t h e m e s s a g in g , y o u c a n s e n d th e m e s s a g e , i f t h e p e r s o n h a s n ’ t g o t a T V, I d o n ’t k n o w m a n y h o u s e h o l d s 10 t h a t d o n ’ t h a v e T V ’s , w h e t h e r t h e y ’r e p o o r o r n o t b u t a t l e a s t v i a a f a m ily m e m b e r t h e m e s s a g e c a n c o m e th r o u g h t o s a y lis t e n t h i s i s h o w y o u a p p l y f o r t h e b o o k , th is is w h e r e y o u g e t i t a n d y e s i t is r e a d y f o r y o u t o c o m e a n d p i c k u p n o w, s o y o u k n o w I d o n ’ t w a n t t o b e la b o u r t h e p o i n t b u t t o m e i t’s ju s t i m p o s s i b l e n o t t o h a v e th is s y s t e m f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f S o u t h A f r ic a . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e ll Mr K r u g e r I th i n k I w o u l d li k e y o u t o d o s o m e e x tr a w o r k , i f y o u r s i t u a ti o n p e r m i ts . 20 Yo u w e r e i n v o lv e d w i th t h is p r o j e c t q u i t e c l o s e ly fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n s i d e a n d y o u a r e a n e n g i n e e r, y o u a r e a b l e to e x p l a i n c e r t a i n th i n g s t h a t s o m e b o d y w h o is n o t a n e n g i n e e r m i g h t n o t b e a b le t o e x p l a i n . I w o u l d – I b e li e v e I m a y b e n e fi t a lo t i f y o u w e r e to h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty o f r e a d in g th e p a p e r s th a t w e r e p la c e d b e f o r e t h e C o u r t i n t h e l it i g a t io n l e t t e r w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h a t w e n t to th e C o u r t s , a n d Page 153 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 n o w I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r a t th a t ti m e y o u m a y h a v e b e e n s ti ll p a r t o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r y o u r a ffi d a v i t mi g h t h a v e b e e n p u t i n t o e x p l a i n c e r t a i n t h i n g s o r n o t , b u t I w o u ld v e r y m u c h lik e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e y o u c o u l d s e e w h a t h a d b e e n p l a c e d b y – b e f o r e t h e C o u r t s b y a ll s id e s a n d b e a b le t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e C o u r t s g o t a fu ll a n d c o r r e c t p ic t u r e o f w h a t t h e p o s it i o n w a s a b o u t t h is p r o j e c t a t t h a t ti m e , a n d i f y o u th i n k t h a t t h e f u l l a n d c o r r e c t p ic t u r e d id n o t e m e r g e fr o m a l l t h o s e a ff id a v it s , fr o m a ll s id e s , t h e n p r e p a r e a n a ffi d a v i t th a t s a y s h e r e i s m a y b e m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s 10 m a d e i f t h e r e i s m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n , h e r e i s w h e r e th e r e a r e g a p s , t h is s h o u l d h a v e b e e n e x p la i n e d t o t h e C o u r t , h e r e is w h a t w e g iv e th e C o m m i s s i o n , a c o r r e c t a n d c o m p l e t e p ic tu r e . Is th a t s o m e th in g th a t y o u r s i tu a ti o n w il l p e r m it y o u t o d o a n d p o s s i b ly t h e r e w il l b e a s s is t a n c e fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n b u t I k n o w y o u w o r k i n M o z a m b i q u e , y o u m i g h t n o t b e e a s ily a c c e s s i b l e b u t I j u s t w a n t t o k n o w a b o u t t h e p r i n c ip le w h e t h e r i n p r i n c i p l e p r o v i d e t h a t t h e lo g i s t ic s c a n b e w o r k e d o u t w h e t h e r i t’s s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u c o u l d c o n s i d e r. M R LAW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : 20 J a I c a n c o n s i d e r t h a t, I m e a n i t w o n ’ t b e a n i m m e d i a t e th i n g , b u t c e r t a i n l y I c a n y e s C h a ir, n o p r o b l e m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . T h e L e g a l Te a m I w o u ld lik e y o u t o t a lk t o M r K r u g e r a n d m a k e a v a il a b l e to h i m a fu ll s e t o f p a p e r s t h a t w e r e fi le d i n t h e H i g h C o u r t a n d t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t in t h a t m a t te r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W e w i ll d o t h a t C h a ir. Page 154 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a l o t o f – it is b u lk y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I ju s t w a n t t o b e s u r e th a t th e C o u r t s w e r e g i v e n t h e c o r r e c t a n d c o m p l e te p ic t u r e , b e c a u s e if t h o s e p a p e r s d o r e f le c t t h e c o r r e c t a n d c o m p le t e p ic t u r e a s a t t h a t ti m e t h e n I k n o w t h a t i f I l o o k a t t h e m i t ’s a c o m p l e te p i c t u r e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f t h e y d id n o t r e p r e s e n t t h e c o m p le t e p ic t u r e y o u c a n fi ll i n t h e g a p s b y w a y o f a n a ff i d a v i t t o s a y h e r e is w h a t w a s le f t 10 o u t w h ic h c o m p le t e s th e p ic t u r e . M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O k a y. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) I m u s t j u s t t h a n k y o u t h e n f o r c o m in g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e to t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t o s h a r e w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t t h i s p r o j e c t w i t h t h e C o m m i s s io n , I t h in k i t i s i m p o r t a n t . W e m a y a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k a t s o m e s ta g e , I a m n o t s u r e , b u t i f w e d o I a m s u r e th a t y o u w i ll d o w h a t y o u c a n t o m a k e y o u r s e l f a v a il a b l e . 20 M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you, no problem. Ye s , b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d f o r n o w y o u a r e excused. M R L AW R E N C E R O Y K R U G E R : O k a y, th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y w e n o w ta k e t h e Page 155 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e a r e a t t e n p a s t o n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. W e c a n t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k n o w a n d r e tu r n a t te n past two. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir, C h a ir m a y I a ls o w a r n C h a ir t h a t w e m i g h t , t h i s w i t n e s s , t h e n e x t w i tn e s s is n o t g o i n g t o b e a lo n g w i t n e s s , w e m i g h t a d j o u r n e a r l ie r t h a n f o u r o ’c lo c k to d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d to m o r r o w, I t h o u g h t th e r e w e r e a f e w w i t n e s s e s t h a t w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o h a v e h e a r d y e s t e r d a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir b u t I w i ll c o m e a n d ju s t a d v i s e y o u o n w h a t is h a p p e n i n g y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h o s e a r e t h e w i tn e s s e s t h a t d e a l m a y b e ju s t t o s o t h a t i t is o p e n th e y w ill , w i t h th e l o t – l o ts o f r e p o r ts a n d w e a r e g o i n g to – y e s t e r d a y w e tr i e d b u t t h e r e w e r e a lo t o f p e o p l e q u e u i n g t o s e e y o u C h a ir, j u s t to a s k f o r o th e r d a y s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B e c a u s e th e y w il l n o t fi n i s h to d a y a n d t o m o r r o w y e s t h a n k y o u , b u t w e w il l c o m e , w e w i ll a p p r o a c h y o u i n c h a m b e r s , y e s th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: N o t h a t ’s f in e . O k a y w e w i ll t a k e th e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c l o c k . Page 156 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : W e a r e in d e e d C h a ir. W e a r e r e a d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir th e n e x t w i t n e s s i s M r L e k g e t h o . M a y t h e w it n e s s p le a s e b e s w o r n i n ? 10 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : L e o n a r d G L e k g e th o . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? MR LEONARD LEKGETHO: No. REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th , th e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e t r u th ? I f s o p le a s e r a is e y o u r 20 r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d . MR LEONARD LEKGETHO: So help me God. M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : ( d u l y s w or n , s t a t e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. Th e - th e f il e t h a t y o u h a v e in fr o n t o f y o u C h a ir t h a t w o u l d b e C C 5 t o C C 1 6 a n d t h e p a r t ic u l a r Page 157 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 f o l d e r th a t w e w i ll g o t o is C C 1 0 . C h a i r a s w e h a v e e a r li e r c o n v e y e d t h a t th e e a r l ie r a ffi d a v it … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: By A d v o c a te M u t e b i ( ? ) has been p l a c e d i n fr o n t . H o w e v e r A d v o c a t e M u t e b i w a s u n a b l e t o c o m e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: A n d t h e r e fo r e Mr L e k g e t h o h a d t h e n c o m e in h is p l a c e a n d is s t a te m e n t w i ll b e f o u n d u n d e r fo l d e r 1 0 - 1 0 . 1 - C C 1 0 .1 a n d t h a t c a n b e fo u n d o n p a g e 1 - 1 - 8 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : D o t h e t w o a d v o c a t e s t a l k a b o u t t h e s a m e th in g ? ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: C h a ir t h e y m o r e o r l e s s t a l k a b o u t th e same thing, yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h is le v e r a r c h - a r c h fi le h a v e w e a d m i t te d i t ? A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s w e h a v e a d m i t t e d t h is … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: This … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ar c h l e v e r fi le … C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . 20 A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M r L e k g e th o t h e d o c u m e n t in fr o n t o f y o u c a n y o u j u s t g o o v e r t o y o u r f il e p l e a s e . T h a t d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 1 - 1 - 8 c a n y o u id e n ti fy t h a t d o c u m e n t p l e a s e ? M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : I c a n i d e n ti f y it C h a ir. Page 158 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: What - what is that document Mr Lekgetho? M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : T h e f ir s t p a g e i t is w r it t e n E X H I B I T C C 1 0 . 1 - S t a t e m e n t o f L e o n a r d L e k g e th o . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And if you turn over the next page what - w h a t d o c u m e n t i s t h a t? M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : T h e n e x t p a g e i t is a s t a t e m e n t t h a t I h a v e made. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And if you turn over to page 1-2-1. Is 10 that your signature? M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: A n d y o u s ig n e d a t - y o u s i g n e d th is s t a te m e n t i n P r e t o r i a o n 6 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 9 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Mr Lekgetho are you employed? Where a r e y o u c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d ? MR LEONARD LEKGETHO: I a m c u r r e n tl y e m p l o y e d a t th e S p e c i a l I n v e s ti g a t i n g U n i t a s t h e C h ie f N a t io n a l I n v e s ti g a ti n g O ff ic e r. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 20 A n d c a n y o u p l e a s e i n f o r m th e C h a ir w h a t a r e y o u r f u n c t i o n s a s t h e C h i e f N a ti o n a l In v e s t i g a t io n s O ff ic e r ? MR LEONARD LEKGETHO: My f u n c ti o n as the C h ie f N a ti o n a l I n v e s ti g a t i n g O ff ic e r is t o o v e r l o o k a l l t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s r e l a ti n g to n a t io n a l d e p a r t m e n ts i n c l u d in g th e SOE. I manage a ll the in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t r e l a t e t o a ll t h o s e d e p a r t m e n ts . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Thank you Page 159 of 169 Mr Lekgetho and in 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 p a r a g r a p h 3 o n th a t fir s t p a g e - o n 1 - 1 - 8 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u s t a t e t h a t y o u a r e g o in g to b e d e a li n g w i th t h e a ffa ir s o f t h e S A B C . C a n y o u ju s t e l a b o r a t e o n th a t ? MR LEONARD LEKGETHO: T h a t is c o r r e c t . I h a v e b e e n c a l le d to c o m e a n d - a n d g iv e p r o g r e s s i n t e r m s o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n t h a t w e a r e c u r r e n tly d e a li n g w i th in - o n S A B C . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: A n d t h e s e a r e v a r i o u s in v e s ti g a t io n m a t t e r s a n d s o fo r t h c o n c e r n i n g t h e S A B C ? MR LEONARD LEKGETHO: 10 Correct. There - there are several in v e s t i g a t io n s th a t w e a r e c u r r e n tly d e a li n g w i t h a t S A B C a n d I th in k w h e n I a m r e a d y I w il l t a k e y o u th r o u g h th e p r o g r e s s w h i c h s h o u ld o u t li n e a ll t h e p r o g r e s s t h a t w e h a v e t o d a y a n d t h e n a m e o f t h e s p e c i f ic c o n tr a c t t h a t w e a r e lo o k in g a t . A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir if I c a n j u s t ta k e y o u t o t h e s li d e s i n w h i c h M r L e k g e t h o w il l b e r e fe r r i n g t o i n a l l t h e m a t t e r s t h a t t h e S I U is c u r r e n tl y d e a l in g w i t h c o n c e r n i n g th e S A B C . Yo u w i ll fi n d t h o s e s l i d e s C h a ir o n p a g e 1 - 5 - 3 o f t h a t s a m e f o l d e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 20 B u t h o w e v e r C h a ir w e d o h a v e a n u p d a te d v e r s i o n o f t h e s e s li d e s t h a t w e r e f u r n is h e d to u s t h is m o r n in g by the SIU. I t is m o r e o r l e s s th e s a m e ju s t a n u p d a t e d v e r s i o n t h a t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o P a r l ia m e n t o n 1 0 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 9 a n d t h e s e s l id e s w i ll b a s ic a l ly in c o r p o r a te the t a b le that is h i g h li g h te d as fr o m p a r a g r a p h 6 o f M r L e k g e t h o ' s s ta t e m e n t t h a t c o u ld b e f o u n d o n p a g e 1 - 1 - 9 o f Mr L e k g e t h o ’s s ta t e m e n t. Page 160 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 U p o n C h a i r ’s a p p r o v a l I b e g le a v e to h a n d u p t h e u p d a t e d s li d e s o n w h ic h Mr L e k g e t h o is g o i n g t o t a k e u s th r o u g h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u k n o w w h a t I a m th i n k i n g u n l e s s t h e r e is a concern that he - th e r e has been an e x c e s s iv e delay in the in v e s t i g a t io n p r o c e s s i n r e g a r d t o a c e r t a i n m a t t e r I - a n d I w a n t t o b e s a ti s f y w h y n o t h i n g h a s b e e n d o n e o r w h y p r o g r e s s is s l o w t h e r e i s n o p a r t ic u l a r r e a s o n t h a t I c a n th in k o f w h y I w o u l d w a n t t o b e g iv e n e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h a t th e p r o g r e s s is . A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is - t h a t i s w h a t - w h a t I a m t h i n k in g a b o u t n o w. Yo u k n o w w e h a v e h e a r d c a s e s w h e r e s o m e b o d y s a y s w e - I r e p o r te d t o t h e H a w k s th is p a r t ic u l a r c o m p la i n t o r t h e S A P a n d t h e y h a v e d o n e nothing. T h e n o n e w a n ts t o fi n d o u t i f i t is s o m e t h i n g th a t r e l a t e s t o c o r r u p ti o n a n d s o o n t h a t f a l ls u n d e r th e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e . O t h e r w is e I a m n o t s u r e t h a t if it is n o t t h a t k i n d o f s i t u a t i o n I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I p a r ti c u la r ly n e e d t o h e a r e v id e n c e a b o u t h o w f a r t h e y have gone. A s s u mi n g f o r e x a m p l e th a t e v e r y t h i n g is - y o u k n o w o n tr a c k . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Of - yes indeed. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t I m e a n ? A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e - i s th e r e a n a n g l e t h a t I a m m i s s i n g t h a t y o u m i g h t w i s h t o t e ll m e a b o u t ? ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Well C h a ir the purpose of - of M r L e k g e t h o c o m in g t h is a f te r n o o n w a s t o u p d a t e th e C o m m is s i o n o n Page 161 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 t h e p r o g r e s s p a r ti c u la r ly in te r ms o f w h a t is g o in g o n w i th s p e c if ic matters at the SABC. T h is w il l b e d e a li n g w i t h y o u k n o w t h e ir r e g u l a r i ti e s a n d s o fo r t h a n d m a t t e r s th e y h a v e r e f e r r e d to f o r in s t a n c e t o th e S A P S a n d - a n d s o o n . Mr Lekgetho d id come and convey that he does not n e c e s s a r i ly w a n t t o d i s s e c t e a c h a n d e v e r y m a t te r b e c a u s e t h e y a r e b e f o r e c o u r t s a n d t h e y h a v e b e e n r e fe r r e d to th e r e l e v a n t p l a t fo r m a n d s o f o r th . S o M r L e k g e th o w i ll ju s t b e d e a l in g a s t o y o u k n o w w h a t i s h a p p e n in g w i t h t h is p a r t ic u l a r c o n t r a c t t h e p r o g r e s s a n d s o f o r t h . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t th a t i s w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t . I f t h e r e is n o c o n c e r n th a t t h e y h a v e d e la y e d u n d u l y w h y s h o u l d I s p e n d t i m e lis t e n i n g t o t h e m te ll i n g m e h o w e ff ic ie n tl y t h e y h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e matters. I f t h e y e x p l a in th a t t o a P a r li a m e n t a r y C o m m i t t e e w h i c h h a s o v e r s ig h t o f t h e m - o v e r t h e m t h a t I c a n u n d e r s ta n d . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Huh-uh. CHAIRPERSON: B u t I d o n o t e x e r c i s e o v e r s ig h t o v e r th e m . I am in t e r e s te d o n ly in t e r m s o f is s u e s r e l a ti n g t o S t a te C a p t u r e a n d c o r r u p ti o n b u t w h e r e t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d - w h e r e th e r e is a c o n c e r n t h a t th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o h a v e i n v e s t ig a t e d c e r t a i n m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o 20 c o r r u p ti o n f o r e x a m p l e a n d t h e r e h a s b e e n a d e l a y I c o u l d th e n w a n t t o hear what is going on. Yo u k n o w b u t o t h e r w is e if t h e r e is n o s u c h c o n c e r n I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I r e a l ly n e e d t o h e a r h o w t h e y - h o w t h e y o r w h a t p r o g r e s s they have made. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: I n d e e d s o C h a ir. Page 162 of 169 We can ask if 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 M r L e k g e t h o b e c a u s e h e - h e i s p r i v y t o a l l t h e ir o n g o in g i n v e s t ig a ti o n s and so forth. I f h e c o u ld t h e n h i g h li g h t e x a c t ly if t h e r e h a v e b e e n d e l a y s a n d s o fo r t h b e c a u s e p a r t ic u l a r ly th e s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b u t I a m s a y in g a s th in g s s t a n d u n l e s s y o u te ll m e s o m e t h i n g t h a t I m ig h t b e m i s s i n g . As things stand unless there are m a t t e r s w h e r e t h e r e i s a c o n c e r n th a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a l o n g d e la y I d o n o t s e e w h y I s h o u l d - I n e e d to k n o w w h a t p r o g r e s s t h e y - t h e y h a v e b e e n m a k in g . I n o t h e r w o r d s i f e v e r y th in g is g o i n g a c c o r d i n g t o p l a n . T h e r e i s n o n e e d f o r m e t o - to s p e n d t i m e h e a r i n g h is 10 e v i d e n c e a lo n g t h o s e l in e s . A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o … C H A I R P E R S O N : I f - i t m a y b e t h a t i t is - i t is a r e p o r t t h a t m i g h t b e o f in t e r e s t a t s o m e s ta g e t o r e a d b u t I d o n o t th in k t h a t I s h o u ld h e a r o r a l e v i d e n c e s i m p ly a b o u t t h a t. A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir. I f … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: U p o n C h a i r ’s a p p r o v a l c a n I p u t t o Mr Lekgetho if there has been any undue delays in any of these matters a n d s o fo r t h … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Because he w o u ld e v e r y t h i n g t h a t is g o i n g o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M P H O R A S I V H E S H E L E : C a n I p u t t h a t q u e s ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Well … Page 163 of 169 be p r iv y to 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : To h i m ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f y o u d o n o t - i f y o u d o n o t h a v e th e c o n c e r n o f a d e l a y w h y w o u l d y o u p u t t h a t q u e s ti o n t o h i m ? Yo u - y o u w o u l d b e w a n ti n g - y o u w o u l d b e - y o u w o u l d b e fi s h in g f o r i n f o r m a ti o n ? He m i g h t s a y n o t h e r e is n o t h i n g a n d t h a t is t h e e n d . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ? ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Ye s in d e e d s o C h a ir. I do understand what … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e C h a ir is t r y i n g t o c o n v e y. 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. M a y b e w e w il l - w e w il l s a y t h is t h e m a t t e r s t h a t a r e ta k i n g c a r e o f - th a t a r e d e a l t w i t h i n t h is r e p o r t a r e th e r e a r e a n y m a t te r s t h a t h a v e d e l a y e d f o r l o n g p e r i o d s w h i le t h e y w e r e b e in g in v e s t i g a t e d b y t h e S I U ? MR LEONARD LEKGETHO: No Chairperson. A l l t h e m a t te r s a r e o n tr a c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e a l l o n tr a c k ? M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 20 C h a ir j u s t t o b r i n g to t h e C h a ir ’s a tt e n ti o n t h a t th e s e m a t t e r s t h a t Mr L e k g e th o w a s g o in g t o ta lk a b o u t a r e m a t te r s t h a t a r e b e i n g i n v e s ti g a te d b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n . I t is n o t ju s t o n l y t h e S I U th a t h a v e t a k e n th o s e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f i n v e s t ig a ti n g . S o t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s a r e o n t h e s e m a t t e r s a s w e l l a n d t h a t i s w h y - t h a t is w h y w e f e lt t h a t i t w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r M r L e k g e th o to ta lk a b o u t th is t h e m a t t e r s t h a t a r e o n g o in g a n d s o f o r t h . Page 164 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f t h e y a r e b e i n g i n v e s ti g a te d b y t h e C o m m i s s io n le t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n b e f in a lis e d f ir s t a n d th e n w i tn e s s e s c a n b e b r o u g h t a t th e ti m e . ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: I n d e e d s o C h a ir. We also have a w i t n e s s th a t is c o m i n g in d u e c o u r s e t h a t w il l t a lk a b o u t th e r e p o r ts t h e i n v e s t ig a ti v e - th e f o r e n s i c r e p o r ts a n d h e w i ll c o m e a n d t a l k t o t h o s e r e p o r ts . S o t h e r e is a li n k b e t w e e n th e s e c a s e s t h a t th e S I U h a v e t a k e n o n a n d th e u p c o m i n g w i t n e s s t h a t is c o m in g to t a lk a b o u t t h e s e r e p o r t s t h a t t h e S A B C t h e ms e lv e s h a v e i n v e s t ig a t e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f t h e r e i s a li n k w h a t - w h a t m a y b e p o s s i b le is that hearing his evidence now does not reveal the relevance but if it c o m e s la t e r a f t e r c e r t a in w i t n e s s e s w h o d e a l w i t h t h e r e p o r ts h a v e h a v e g i v e n e v i d e n c e i t m a y b e t h a t t h e n i t is r e l e v a n c e w o u l d b e c o m e apparent. Yo u s e e i t m ig h t b e t h a t i t - it is c o m i n g a t a w r o n g ti m e in t h a t s e n s e b e c a u s e a t th is s ta g e a s I s a y i f - i f it i s m a t t e r s th a t t h e y a r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g e v e r y t h i n g s e e m s to b e u n d e r c o n tr o l . I am not e x e r c is i n g o v e r s ig h t o v e r t h e m b u t i f a m a tt e r w a s r e p o r t e d t o t h e m a lo n g t i m e a g o t h a t f a lls w i t h i n o u r j u r is d ic ti o n a n d t h e y s e e m h a v e d o n e 20 n o t h i n g a b o u t it . T h e n I w o u l d w e lc o m e e v id e n c e t h a t t e lls m e w h a t h a p p e n e d . W h a t is g o in g o n ? Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ? A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. I a p p r e c i a t e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e - t h e C h a ir ’s c o n c e r n . Page 165 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: I w o u l d t h e n p r o p o s e C h a ir w it h y o u r approval … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: That we hear our upcoming witness that is g o i n g t o t e s t if y a b o u t t h e f o r e n s i c t h a t is h a p p e n in g a t S A B C a n d then at a l a te r stage have Mr Lekgetho dependent a ls o of M r L e k g e t h o ’s a v a il a b i li ty t h a t t h e n h e w o u ld t h e n c o m e b a c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w h a t w e c a n d o i s if y o u t h in k t h a t o n c e t h e 10 e v i d e n c e o f c e r t a i n w i t n e s s e s h a s b e e n h a d in r e l a t i o n t o c e r t a i n r e p o r t s t h e r e l e v a n c e o f h is e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h e p r o g r e s s m i g h t b e c o m e a p p a r e n t . T h e n t a k e t h a t d e c is io n a t t h a t s t a g e a n d i f y o u p r o p o s e t o b r i n g h i m b a c k th e n I c a n a t i t a t t h a t s t a g e b u t a t t h i s s t a g e I d o n o t t h i n k th a t I r e a l ly n e e d t o h e a r w h a t p r o g r e s s t h e y - t h e y a r e m a k in g i f t h e r e i s n o c o m p l a in t t h a t th e y a r e n o t d o i n g t h e ir j o b . A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : As t h e C h a ir w is h e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So - so you - you understand what I am saying? 20 M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o y o u m a y b e a s k e d l a te r o n b u t f o r n o w maybe it is not the right time. M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . MR LEONARD LEKGETHO: Thank you. Page 166 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u - y o u a r e e x c u s e d . M R L E O N A R D L E K G E T H O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Chair … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : D u e t o M r L e k g e t h o b e in g e x c u s e d t h a t w o u ld t h e n c o n c lu d e t h e w i tn e s s e s o f t o d a y a n d w e d o h a v e a w i tn e s s li n e d u p f o r to m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t o m o r r o w ? 10 A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A t t h i s s t a g e d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r w e - t h e - t h e w i t n e s s e s f o r t o m o r r o w is a b le to b e h e r e a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k o r i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t is s t il l u n c e r t a i n ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e a r e s t il l a w a i t in g c o n fir m a t io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t i n t h e e v e n t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r w i t n e s s i s n o t a v a i la b le w e h a v e li n e d u p a n o t h e r w i t n e s s th a t c o u l d s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o s h o u l d w e - I m e a n t h e r e a r e tw o o p t io n s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I f t h e w i tn e s s th a t i s s c h e d u l e d f o r t o m o r r o w i s o n l y g o i n g t o b e h e r e l ik e a t 11 … Page 167 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n w e c o u ld s a y w e s t a r t a t 11 b u t i f - b u t a n o t h e r o p t io n w o u ld b e t h a t w e s ta r t a t 1 0 … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f s h e is h e r e a t 1 0 w e s t a r t w i th h e r. I f s h e is n o t h e r e w e s ta r t w i t h s o m e b o d y e l s e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d t h e n w e t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. I a m - I a m j u s t w o r r ie d t h a t i n 10 t h e e v e n t t h a t s h e is n o t a b l e to - t o m a k e it t o m o r r o w t h e n w e w o u l d b e w a s ti n g a d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y b e w e s h o u l d a d j o u r n u n ti l 1 0 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir t h e n I w i ll h a v e th e 1 0 o ’ c l o c k w i t n e s s r e a d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . W e w i ll a d j o u r n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s fo r t h e d a y. W e w i ll s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k to m o r r o w. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Page 168 of 169 12 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 162 REGISTER: All rise. I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 3 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9 Page 169 of 169