C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
BRAAMFONTEIN CHAMBERS

10

13 MARCH 2020

D AY 2 2 3

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 13 MARCH 2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Mr P r e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A G R I Z Z I: M o r n in g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

G o o d m o r n in g Mr A g r i z z i .

W e a r e s t a r ti n g w it h a

m a t t e r r e la t in g t o M r A g r iz z i a n d M s J a b u l e l e E l iz a b e t h S is h u b a a n d
t h e n w e w il l t h e r e a f te r p r o c e e d w it h t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w e w e r e h e a r i n g
y e s t e r d a y. Ye s M r Pr e to r i u s .
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir t h e p u r p o s e b r i e f h e a r i n g t h i s

m o r n in g is t o a ll o w M r A g r i z z i to p u t a n a p o l o g y o n r e c o r d in r e s p e c t o f
e v i d e n c e g iv e n i n J a n u a r y l a s t y e a r. B u t b e c a u s e i t is a p u b li c a p o l o g y
it is n e c e s s a r y t o p l a c e t h e w o r d s t h a t M r A g r i z z i w o u l d u s e i n th e ir
c o n te x t a n d if I m a y t a k e fiv e m i n u t e s to d o s o ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

O n th e 2 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 9 Mr A g r iz z i

t e s ti fi e d a n d a m o n g s t o t h e r th i n g s g a v e t e s t i m o n y i m p li c a t in g M s
S is h u b a b y s a y i n g t h a t s h e h a d r e c e iv e d m o n e y fr o m B O S A S A o r o n e o f
it s s u b s i d i a r ie s . A R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e w a s i s s u e d t o M s S i s h u b a a n d s h e
20

c o n s e q u e n t u p o n th a t m a d e a n a p p li c a t i o n r e q u ir i n g t h e a ll e g a t io n t o b e
r e tr a c te d a n d i f t h e r e w a s n o r e tr a c ti o n s h e w o u l d a p p ly to c r o s s e x a m in e M r A g r iz z i . In r e s p o n s e t o t h a t a n d o n a ff id a v i t M r A g r iz z i o n
t h e 8 A p r il 2 0 1 9 r e t r a c t e d t h e a ll e g a t io n a n d a p o l o g is e d .

A fu r t h e r

a ffi d a v i t w a s f il e d b y M s S i s h u b a w h ic h n o t e d t h e a p o l o g y b u t r a is e d
t h e is s u e t h a t t h e a p o lo g y a p p e a r e d to b e s o m e w h a t q u a li f ie d a n d

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
p r o ffe r e d th e w o r d in g o f a d i ff e r e n t a p o lo g y.

There was a further

r e s p o n s e f il e d b y Mr A g r iz z i o n th e 2 A u g u s t w h ic h c o n f ir m e d t h e
c o n te n ts o f h is p r e v io u s a ff i d a v i t a n d h e s t a te d q u o t e “ I t a k e fu ll
r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r t h e e r r o r th a t o c c u r r e d ” .

T h e a p p li c a t io n b y M s

S is h u b a c a m e b e f o r e y o u o n th e 3 – w e ll c a m e b e f o r e y o u i n – la t e r i n
2 0 1 9 d u r i n g A u g u s t a n d o n t h e 3 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 9 y o u C h a ir m a d e a
r u l i n g s a y i n g th a t M s S is h u b a ’s a p p li c a t i o n w a s j u s ti f ie d b u t t h a t n o
order was necessary to be made and you noted that Mr Agrizzi would
a p o lo g i s e o n r e c o r d i n a n o p e n h e a r i n g . I f I m a y ju s t q u o t e fr o m y o u r
10

r u l i n g C h a ir. Yo u s t a t e d o n t h e 3 S e p te m b e r a t p a g e 4 4 o f S E Q 4
“ I th i n k i t i s e n o u g h t h a t M r A g r i z z i h a s s a i d :
1 . H e m a d e a n e r r o r b y s u g g e s ti n g th a t M s S is h u b a h a d
r e c e i v e d b r i b e s fr o m B O S A S A .
2 . H e s a id h e t a k e s f u l l r e s p o n s ib il i ty fo r t h a t .
3 . H e s a id h e a p o l o g is e s t o Ms S is h u b a f o r t h a t.
4 . H e s a i d h e w i ll r e p e a t a l l o f t h is w h e n h e c o m e s
b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s i o n n e x t ti m e . ”
I n t h o s e c i r c u ms t a n c e s y o u s a i d C h a i r i t w a s u n n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u t o
m a k e a n y p o s it iv e o r d e r.

20

A r i s i n g o u t o f t h a t b a c k g r o u n d C h a ir M r

A g r iz z i is n o w h e r e t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d h is a p o lo g y. Mr A g r iz z i .
M R A G R I Z Z I: C h a ir g o o d m o r n i n g a g a in .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C : I a m s o r r y p e r h a p s y o u s h o u l d b e s w o r n
s o th a t th e a p o l o g y i s o n o a t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s h e s h o u l d b e s w o r n f ir s t . P l e a s e a d m i n is te r th e
o a t h o r a ff ir m a ti o n .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R A G R I Z Z I: A n g e lo A g r iz z i .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
M R A G R I Z Z I: N o I d o n o t .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R A G R I Z Z I: Ye s I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ; th e w h o l e tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g e ls e b u t t h e t r u t h i f s o p le a s e r a is e
10

y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d .
M R A G R I Z Z I: S o h e l p m e G o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s – Ye s Mr A g r i z z i .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

M r A g r i z z i I u n d e r s ta n d y o u h a v e

p r e p a r e d a n a p o l o g y.
M R A G R I Z Z I: Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a r e r e a d y t o p la c e i t o n r e c o r d .
M R A G R I Z Z I: Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d y o u d o s o p l e a s e ?
M R A G R I Z Z I: C h a ir a n d M s S is h u b a a n d y o u r C o u n s e l . I a m tr u l y, tr u l y
20

s o r r y it w a s – a s s o o n a s i t w a s b r o u g h t t o my a t t e n t i o n r i g h t in th e
b e g in n i n g t h a t th e r e w a s a c o n f u s i o n a n d I h a v e c o n fu s e d t h e n a m e s I
a lr e a d y a p o l o g is e d s o t h e r e w a s n o – t h e r e w a s n o t m a li c e i n t e n d e d . I
t h i n k it w a s r o u g h , it w a s c o n f u s i n g a n d e v e r y t h in g h a p p e n in g s o I a m
r e a l ly s o r r y a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o – I d o n o t w a n t t o b e l a b o u r th e p o i n t
b u t I t h in k th a t I u n d e r s t a n d th a t it h a s d o n e h a r m a n d d a m a g e a n d m y

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
– a n d a s I a p o l o g i s e d t o Ms S i s h u b a t h i s m o r n i n g a n d I s a i d t o h e r,
s o r r y a n d s h e a c c e p te d i t . S o I t h a n k y o u f o r a c c e p t in g m y a p o l o g y a n d
I r e a ll y d o .

I m a d e a n e r r o r, a p u r e e r r o r a n d I a m s o r r y a n d I

u n d e r s t a n d i n th a t – j u s t i t i s d a m a g i n g t o p e o p l e a n d I a m s o r r y.

I

r e a l ly a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . I th in k t h a t w e a r e t h e r e fo r e
d o n e M r A g r iz z i h a s o n c e a g a i n a p o lo g i s e d to M s S is h u b a h a s s a id t h a t
t h a t w a s a n e r r o r a n d I t h i n k t h a t is w h e r e i t s h o u l d e n d . T h a n k y o u .
A r e y o u r e a d y t h a t w e r e le a s e M r A g r iz z i ?
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Th a n k y o u M r A g r i z z i y o u a r e r e le a s e d . T h a n k
you very much.
M R A G R I Z Z I: T h a n k y o u C h i e f J u s tic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . I w il l a d jo u r n fo r f iv e m i n u t e s t o a ll o w f o r
r e a r r a n g e m e n t s s o th a t w e c a n p r o c e e d w it h t h e e v id e n c e f o r t h e d a y.
We adjourn.
MEETING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r S o n i , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.

20

A D V VA S S O N I S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
MR MOLEF E: We are.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed. Ja thank you.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

C h a i r b e f o r e Mr M o l e fe ’s e v i d e n c e p e r h a p s h e

s h o u l d b e s w o r n in .

B u t b e f o r e h e g iv e s h is – o h p e r h a p s – a n d I

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
s h o u l d d o i t w h il e h e i s o n o a t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o th e o a t h t h a t h e t o o k t w o d a y s a g o w i ll c o n ti n u e
t o a p p ly.
R E G I S T R A R : As – a s i t p l e a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M r C h a ir p e r s o n y e s t e r d a y o r I t h i n k i t w a s o n

W e d n e s d a y I i n d ic a te d th a t t w o p e o p le h a d n o t b e e n s e r v e d b e c a u s e
t h e y w e r e i n Zi m b a b w e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h e a r w h a t y o u ..
10

A D V VA S S O N I S C : I n r e g a r d to t h e P R A S A m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll h a v e t o r a is e y o u r v o i c e a g a in .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : O h – o h s o r r y M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I – o n W e d n e s d a y I i n d ic a te d t h a t t w o p e o p le h a d
n o t b e e n s e r v e d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e i n Zi m b a b w e .

I t is t h e i d e a l

o p p o r t u n i ty to p o i n t o u t t h a t t h e y a r e r e f e r r e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h s 4 7 . 2 a n d
4 7 . 3 . 4 7 .2 o f M r M o l e f e ’s a ffi d a v i t C h a ir is – w h ic h is S S 6 r e f e r s t o a
M r M a h l a n g u w h o w a s t h e G e n e r a l S e c r e t a r y o f S a ta w u a n d a c o m p a n y
k n o w n a s B a s h u m e . T h e y w e r e th e t w o p e r s o n s w h o w e r e n o t s e r v e d
20

b e c a u s e t h e y a r e in Z i m b a b w e a n d w e c o u l d n o t fi n d a d d r e s s e s f o r
t h e m . B u t I th o u g h t I w o u l d j u s t c o m p l e t e t h e p i c t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t – b e c a u s e t h e y a r e s p e c i fi c a lly m e n t io n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I n th e l a s t p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e M r M o le f e g a v e .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w M r M o le f e y e s t e r d a y y o u w e r e p o i n t i n g –

w h e n y o u e n d e d y o u w e r e s k e tc h i n g t h e b a c k g r o u n d a g a in s t w h ic h M r
M o n ta n a l e ft P R A S A a n d y o u w e r e s a y i n g th e r e w e r e v a r i o u s i n c i d e n ts
o f s u p p o r t f o r h i m a n d s t r ik e s a n d s o o n , d o y o u r e c a l l th a t ?
M R M O L E F E : I r e c a ll C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d o n e o f t h e q u e s t io n s th a t y o u r e f le c t o n i n

y o u r a ffi d a v it Mr M o l e f e is h o w i s th a t g i v e n a l l o f t h e s e d is r u p ti o n a t
PRASA, given all the scandal that wracked PRASA Mr Montana
10

s u r v iv e d ?

T h a t i s a m a t t e r y o u a d d r e s s i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t .

W il l y o u

o u t li n e t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t y o u r v i e w is a s t o h o w t h a t c a m e
a b o u t?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u l d lik e t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d a m i n o r

c o r r e c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : R e g a r d i n g th e p o i n t t h a t w a s r a is e d b y C o u n s e l in
r e s p e c t o f i n d i v i d u a ls o r p e r s o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:
20

Who could not be served.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

W i th n o tic e s .

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

I n e e d t o c l a r i f y th e s e c o n d p a r t o f it .

B a s h u m e is

a c t u a ll y n o t a p e r s o n u n l e s s w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t ju r is t ic p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
MR MOLEFE:

I t w a s a c o m p a n y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : Th a t w a s e s ta b l is h e d b y M r M a h l a n g u a n d h is c o l l e a g u e s
at Satawu.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : A n in v e s t m e n t c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s .

Ye s .

I t o o k i t t h a t M r S o n i w a s u s in g

p e r s o n s t o i n c lu d e a ju r is t ic p e r s o n b u t t h a t is m a y b e b e c a u s e w h e n I
r e a d I – t h e a ff i d a v i t I u n d e r s to o d it to b e a r e f e r e n c e t o a c o m p a n y.
10

B u t o f c o u r s e it m a y b e th a t t h e p o i n t y o u m a k e is th a t – i s t h a t
c o m p a n y i s r e g i s te r e d i n S o u t h A fr ic a .
M R M O L E F E : I n S o u th A fr ic a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Ye s .

M r C h a ir p e r s o n a s I u n d e r s t a n d it a n d th e

r e a s o n i t c o u l d n o t b e s e r v e d is t h e – th e – M r M a h l a n g u is t h e s o r t o f
c r e a to r o r th e c o m p a n y a n d th e c o m p a n y c o u l d o n ly b e s e r v e d t h r o u g h
him.

A n d y o u w i ll r e c a l l Mr C h a ir m a n o n W e d n e s d a y I s a id i t w a s a

p e r s o n a n d a c o m p a n y. A n d th a t is t h e a s s o c i a ti o n b e t w e e n B a s h u m e
and Mr Mahlangu.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . B u t i f i t is r e g is t e r e d i n S o u t h A fr i c a i t o u g h t t o
h a v e a r e g is t e r e d a d d r e s s i n S o u t h A fr i c a .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t is w h a t c o u l d n o t b e fo u n d M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h t h a t c o u l d n o t b e fo u n d . A n d w a s a c h e c k m a d e

o r w a s t h e r e s o m e b o d y w h o c h e c k e d in t h e r e l e v a n t c o m p a n y o ff ic e s – I
m e a n r e g is t e r s a n d f i n d – f o u n d o u t? B e c a u s e a s l o n g i t is r e g is t e r e d

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
in S o u th A fr ic a i t s h o u ld h a v e a r e g is t e r e d o ffic e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th a t r e g is t e r e d o ffi c e w o u l d n e e d to h a v e a

physical address.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Ye s .

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w a s d o n e b y t h e s e c t io n

b u t c a n I g e t c la r i ty o n th a t a n d w h e n w e d o g e t c l a r i ty w e w il l p l a c e i t
on record.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I – s o th a t n e e d s t o b e c h e c k e d b e c a u s e t h e r e
m i g h t b e n o b o d y th e r e a t th e r e g i s te r e d o ffi c e b u t a s lo n g a s i t r e m a i n s
10

t h e r e g is t e r e d o ffi c e o f t h e c o m p a n y th e n y o u c a n e v e n s e r v e – t h e r e
a r e v a r i o u s w a y s o f s e r v ic e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n i f th e r e i s n o b o d y y o u c a n – y o u c a n s e r v e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f th e o w n e r s o f t h e c o m p a n y h a v e d e c i d e d n o t to
m a k e a n y a r r a n g e m e n ts a s t o h o w t h e y r e c e i v e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d
o th e r – a n d c o u r t p r o c e s s e s t h a t a r e s o u g h t to b e s e r v e d t h e n t h a t m a y
b e t h e ir o w n p r o b le m .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e w o u l d n e e d to b e s e e n t o h a v e s e r v e d a t th e
r e g is t e r e d o ffic e . A n d t h a t w o u l d s e r v e – i f M r M a h l a n g u is p r e s u m e d
t h e M a n a g i n g D ir e c to r h e c o u l d b e s e r v e d in – o n t h e s a m e a d d r e s s I
w o u ld t h i n k .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I w i ll a tt e n d t o th a t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l – w e ll t h a n k y o u Mr M o l e f e fo r b r i n g in g th a t

c la r i fi c a t io n u p . T h a t o f c o u r s e r a is e s t h e q u e s t io n o f w h a t d o y o u d o i f
in d e e d th e o n e p e r s o n – j u r is ti c p e r s o n i s r e g is t e r e d in S o u t h A fr ic a
a n d h a s a n a d d r e s s i n S o u t h A fr ic a b u t n o a t t e m p t h a s b e e n m a d e to
serve on that address.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I c a n s a y t o y o u f r o m w h a t I h a v e r e c e iv e d fr o m

t h e a d m i n i s t r a t iv e s e c t i o n o f th e c o m m is s io n C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t a n
a tt e m p t w a s in f a c t m a d e a n d w h a t is r e c o r d e d h e r e i s t h e r e a r e n o
10

c o n ta c t d e t a ils e i t h e r fo r M r M a h l a n g u o r B a s h u m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e q u e s t i o n is , w a s t h e r e a n a t te m p t m a d e to
s e r v e o n t h e r e g i s te r e d a d d r e s s ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

C h a ir p e r s o n m a y – m a y I s u g g e s t th e fo ll o w i n g

p r o c e s s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t w e m a k e t h o s e e n q u ir i e s a s s o o n a s w e c a n
a n d i f t h e r e is a c o n – th e r e a r e c o n t a c t d e ta il s th e n w e e ffe c t s e r v e
t h is n o w a n d j u s t e x t e n d th e p e r io d fo r t h e 3 . 3 t h e r ig h ts c o n t a i n e d in
20

3 .3 t o a p p ly fr o m t h e t i m e t h e s e r v ic e h a s b e e n e ff e c t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I d o n o t p a r ti c u l a r l y r e m e m b e r h o w s e r io u s t h e

a l le g a ti o n s a r e th a t le d t o M r M a h l a n g u a n d B a s h u m e b u t i t is i m p o r ta n t
t h a t i f a t a l l p o s s ib l e a l l r e a s o n a b l e m e a s u r e s b e t a k e n to e n s u r e t h a t
s e r v ic e i s a ff e c t e d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d it d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r il y m e a n t h a t th e R u l e
3 .3 N o tic e h a s t o b e g i v e n t o a p e r s o n i f t h e r e is n o b o d y a n d a t te m p t s
h a v e – r e a s o n a b le a t t e m p ts h a v e b e e n m a d e t o g e t s o m e b o d y t h a t a t
le a s t th o s e a t t e m p ts s h o u ld b e m a d e a n d t h e n s o m e b o d y s h o u ld – i f i t
is n o t a r e tu r n o f s e r v ic e fr o m a s h e r i ff t h e n s o m e b o d y w h o m a d e t h o s e
a tt e m p ts n e e d s to d e p o s e t o a n a ffi d a v it s e tt i n g o u t w h a t a t te m p t s w e r e
made.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h e o n e o p t i o n o f c o u r s e is t h a t b e c a u s e t h o s e

a tt e m p ts a r e y e t t o b e m a d e to s e r v e o n t h e r e g is te r e d a d d r e s s o f t h e
c o m p a n y w h ic h c o u l d b e u s e d f o r M r M a h l a n g u a s w e l l o n e o p ti o n is
t h a t Mr M o l e f e ’s e v id e n c e w o u l d s k i p t h e p a r t r e l a ti n g t o M r M a h l a n g u
a n d B a s h u m e u n t il th a t h a s b e e n d o n e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w o u l d ju s t – w e w o u l d h a v e t o a p o l o g is e t o Mr

M o le f e t h a t h e w o u ld h a v e t o c o m e b a c k f o r w h a t m i g h t n o t t a k e l o n g
b u t b e c a u s e it is n e c e s s a r y t h a t a tt e m p ts t h a t w e r e n o t m a d e s h o u ld b e
m a d e . S o t h a t i s – I th i n k th a t p r o b a b ly i s t h e s a f e r r o u t e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M o l e fe h o w d o y o u f e e l a b o u t h a v i n g t o c o m e b a c k
t o d e a l w i t h t h a t la t e r a ft e r t h e s e a t te m p t s h a v e b e e n m a d e ?
MR MOLEFE:

I a m h a p p y w i th th e g u i d a n c e t h a t I w ill h a v e fr o m th e

C h a ir a n d t h e C o u n s e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k – th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A s y o u p l e a s e C h a i r.

Page 11 of 146

Mr Molefe I just want to

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
r e tu r n t o t h e is s u e y o u r e f l e c t o n i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t n a m e ly h o w w a s i t
t h a t Mr M o n ta n a w it h a ll th e s c a n d a l s u r r o u n d in g h i m a n d P R A S A w o u l d
s u r v iv e fr o m 2 0 0 8 t o 2 0 1 5 ?
M R M O L E F E : C h a i r p e r s o n I i n d ic a te i n m y a ff id a v i t t h a t I f o u n d i t q u i te
in tr ig u in g th a t d e s p i te t h e f i n d in g s b y t h e H i g h C o u r ts in t h i s l a n d a n d
t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r i n h e r r e p o r t s a b o u t c o r r u p t a c tiv i ti e s o f Mr
M o n ta n a . H e c o n t in u e d to – t o – to g o a r o u n d w it h n o b o d y r e a l ly t a k in g
u p t h o s e m a t te r s .

T h e – t h e f ir s t p o i n t w e – I m a k e in a n a t t e m p t to

lo o k a t w h a t m i g h t b e t h e c a u s e o f t h a t a n d th e r e l a t i o n s h ip s b e t w e e n
10

M r M o n t a n a a n d c e r ta in p o li t ic a l o ff ic e r s is t h a t d u r i n g 1 9 9 0 ’s – l a te
1 9 9 0 ’s a n d e a r ly 2 0 0 0 M r M o n t a n a a n d a g e n t l e m a n w h o s e n a m e
f e a t u r e s p r o m i n e n t ly th r o u g h o u t a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r i n t h e S w i f a m b o
c o n tr a c t, S i y a y a r e l a ti n g to t h e B r a a m f o n t e i n D e p o t a n d s e v e r a l o t h e r
s e r v ic e s p r o v id e d to P R A S A w o r k e d f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic
E n t e r p r is e u n d e r M in is t e r J e ff R a d e b e . Mr M o n t a n a w a s th e d ir e c t o r i n
t h e o ff ic e o f t h e M i n i s te r – M i n i s te r R a d e b e a n d M r M a k h e n s a w a s a
d ir e c t o r i n t h e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t , d i ff e r e n t d iv i s i o n b u t r e p o r ti n g t o t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n t e r p r is e s .

T h e s e c o n d p o in t I m a k e i s th a t

w h e n M in is t e r R a d e b e i n 2 0 0 4 w a s a p p o i n te d M in is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t Mr
20

M o n ta n a fo ll o w e d h i m a n d w h e n h e g o t b a c k I th in k h e e n d e d u p a t t h e
h i g h p o s i ti o n o f D e p u ty D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l w h ic h is a b i g j u m p fr o m w h a t
h e w a s a t – a t P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s .

A r o u n d t h a t p e r i o d w h e n M i n is t e r

R a d e b e w a s th e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t t h e g o v e r n m e n t in i ti a te d a n
a m b i t io u s p r o g r a m m e o f t a x i r e - c a p i t a l is a t io n w i t h a v i e w t o i m p r o v i n g
t a x i s e r v ic e s in S o u t h A f r ic a g iv i n g t h e m v e h ic le s w h ic h o s t e n s i b l y w e r e

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t o a s s is t in m i n i m is i n g b r e a k d o w n s a n d a c c i d e n ts t h a t a ffe c te d t h e
p a s s e n g e r s . W h e n t h is p r o g r a m m e … .
CHAIRPERSON:

I m u s t – I m u s t ju s t c o n f e s s t h a t I n e v e r q u i te

u n d e r s t o o d t h a t – t h a t p r o g r a m m e b u t i t i s o k a y.

I a m s a y in g I m u s t

ju s t c o n f e s s t h a t I n e v e r q u i t e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t p r o g r a m m e o f r e c a p i t a l is a ti o n o f t a x is o r w h a te v e r b u t i t is f in e . M a y b e I j u s t d id n o t –
n e v e r g o t s o m e b o d y w h o c o u l d e x p l a i n i t p r o p e r ly.
M R M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . B u t I m u s t j u s t a s k M r M o l e f e fr o m h e r e d o y o u
10

h e a r m e w e l l b e c a u s e I d i d p ic k u p y e s te r d a y.
M R M O L E F E : I d o , I d o C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o o k a y. Ye s t e r d a y a t s o m e s t a t e I w a s n o t s u r e
w h e t h e r y o u c o u l d h e a r m e w e ll .
M R M O L E F E : T h e r e w a s a ti m e w h e n o n e q u e s t io n I c o u l d n o t h e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y.
MR MOLEFE:

E x c e p t a f t e r it h a d b e e n r e p e a te d .

Well it might also

b e i n g m y m in d b e i n g e l s e w h e r e a t t h e t i m e b u t m a y b e ( i n d is t i n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Al r i g h t . Yo u w e r e c o n t i n u in g a n d I i n te r r u p t e d
y o u . Yo u w e r e s a y in g t h e r e w a s th is b i g p r o g r a m m e t h a t – o f ta x i r e 20

c a p i t a l is a ti o n t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t c a m e u p w i th .
MR MOLEFE:

W h e n th e ta x i r e - c a p i t a l is a ti o n p r o g r a m m e b e g a n t w o

t h i n g s h a p p e n e d . M r M o n t a n a w a s g iv e n t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y t o o w n t h a t
p r o c e s s . I t m e a n s t o b e t h e o n e w h o d ir e c ts th e t a x i r e - c a p i ta li s a t io n
programme.

The second thing that happened was that Mr Mabunda

M a k h e n s a d e c i d e d to – to g o i n to t h e p r iv a te s e c t o r. H e b e c a m e a – a

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
private you know…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u s in e s s p e r s o n .
MR MOLEF E: Business person.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : A n d w h a t h a p p e n s i s th a t h e th e n b e c o m e s o n e o f t h o s e
p e r h a p s e v e n th e k e y o n e w h o g e t s a t e n d e r o s t e n s i b ly t o p r o v id e
tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r y s e r v ic e s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h a t ta x i r e - c a p i t a l is a ti o n
programme.

T h e t h ir d p o in t w e – w e m a k e w h i c h I m a k e – I k e e p

s a y in g w e – lik e o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s p r e v io u s ly.
10

Th e t h i r d p o i n t I

m a k e i s t h a t a fe w m o n t h s la t e r a n d a s a r e s u lt o f t h e – th e S o u t h
A fr ic a n R a i lw a y s C o m m u t e r C o r p o r a ti o n w h ic h w a s a n o ffs p r in g o f w h a t
u s e d t o b e a b i g o r g a n i s a t io n th a t i n c l u d e d Tr a n s n e t a n d o t h e r s –
in c l u d i n g S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s a t t h e t i m e n o w i t h a d b e e n c r e a t e d a s
a n e w o r g a n i s a t io n .

M i n is t e r R a d a b e t h e n a p p o i n te d – w e ll t h a t

o r g a n i s a t io n c h a n g e d i ts n a m e t o w h a t i s c u r r e n t ly k n o w n a s P R A S A .
T h a t i s S A R C C h e r e b e c a m e P R A S A . T h e n M i n is te r R a d a b e a p p o in t e d
M r M o n t a n a – f ir s t ly h e w a s – h e p u t h i m o n t h e B o a r d w h i ls t h e w a s
s t il l

in

his

o r g a n i s a t io n .
20

o ffic e

later

he

a p p o in t e d

him

Group

CEO

of

that

N o w w e l o o k i n g a t t w o i n d iv id u a ls M a b u n d a a n d

M o n ta n a . W h e n M r M o n t a n a m o v e d t o S A R C C a n d w h a t is n o w k n o w n
a s P R A S A M r M a b u n d a e m e r g e s a g a i n a s a v e r y i m p o r ta n t s e r v i c e
provider to PRASA.

H e p r o v i d e d a w h o l e r a n g e o f w h a t t h e y c a ll e d

tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r y s e r v ic e s .

H e w a s a d v is i n g o n t h e m a j o r

s ig n a l li n g r o l lo u t p r o g r a m m e w h ic h I r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r o n i n m y
e v i d e n c e a s o n e t h a t h a d t o d o w it h t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f t h is n e r v e

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c e n tr e i n K a lk f o n te in b y S i e m a n s a n d t h e r o l lo u t i n K w a Z u l u N a ta l
u n d e r t h e a u s p i c e s o f B o m b a r d ia Tr a n s p o r t S i g n a ll in g d iv is i o n .

The

t h ir d o n e w a s Ta l is A fr ic a w i th t h e ir b l a c k p a r t n e r s i n th e – i n t h e
Western Cape.

S o Mr M a b u n d a t h e n w a s b r o u g h t i n to b e t h e

tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r to a l l t h e s e i m p o r t a n t p r o j e c ts .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y M r M o l e f e a n d I k n o w y o u w a n t – I j u s t w a n t
to work out …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R a is e y o u r v o ic e Mr S o n i p l e a s e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

O h s o r r y ja C h a ir p e r s o n .

What were Mr

M a b u n d a ’s q u a l if ic a ti o n s to b e g iv e n t h e s e m a s s iv e c o n tr a c ts ?
M R M O L E F E : C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u l d n o t w a n t to s p e c u l a t e a b o u t t h a t . I
d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w y e s .
MR MOLEFE:

B u t w h e n w e d id o t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s s a y f o r e x a m p le

w i t h r e g a r d t o S w i f a m b o a n d s o o n h e d i d n o t a p p e a r to k n o w m u c h o r
a n y th in g a b o u t t h e l e a s i n g o f l o c o m o ti v e s o r m a n u fa c t u r in g o r s o . B u t I
m a y s a y t h a t b y t h e w a y i n t h e e v i d e n c e th a t e m e r g e d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n s c o n d u c t e d o n S w i f a m b o i t a p p e a r e d t h a t h e h a d b o u g h t a
c o m p a n y, a – a m ic r o l e n d in g c o m p a n y w h ic h m ic r o l e n d in g c o m p a n y
20

w a s t h e n tr a n s f o r m e d i n to S w i fa m b o . I h a v e n o e v i d e n c e o f a n y o t h e r
q u a li fi c a t io n s t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e h a d to j u s t if y h i m b e e n g iv e n a l l th e s e
c o n tr a c ts s a v e t h a t h e h a d w o r k e d i n t h is v e r y i m p o r t a n t o ffi c e t h a t h a d
t h is b i g p r o g r a m m e s to r o ll o u t .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Just on that score you say that he also headed

S iy a y a E n g i n e e r in g C o n s u l ta n c y.

Page 15 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
M R M O L E F E : Ye s h e d id s o C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

D o y o u k n o w if h e h a d a n y e n g i n e e r i n g

q u a li fi c a t io n s ?
MR MOLEFE:

I – I h a v e n o t p e r s o n a ll y e s ta b lis h e d w h e t h e r h e h a d

e n g in e e r i n g q u a l i fic a ti o n s .

T h a t n o t w i th s t a n d i n g o f c o u r s e m a y b e h e

d i d h a v e b u t h e g o t a l l t h is i m p o r t a n t p r o g r a m m e s w i t h c r i ti c a l
e n g in e e r i n g r e q u i r e m e n ts .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u k n o w t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e w i ll b e th a t S iy a y a
– t h e S iy a y a c o m p a n ie s e a r n e d m o r e th a n R 1 b i lli o n fr o m P R A S A o r
10

w e r e p a id m o r e th a n R 1 b i lli o n fr o m P R A S A . I a m j u s t p la c i n g th a t o n
record.
M R M O L E F E : W e ll a t t h is s ta g e I w o u l d n o t s a y I k n o w t h a t e v id e n c e
w o u ld b e le d in t h a t r e g a r d b e c a u s e I h a v e s e e n a n y b o d y ’s s t a te m e n ts
s a y in g t h a t . M y s t a te m e n t d o e s s a y h e – h e w a s p a i d a p p r o x i m a te ly –
S iy a y a w a s p a i d a p p r o x i m a te ly R 9 0 0 m ill i o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So – so.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t – s o r r y c a r r y o n .
MR MOLEF E: No it is fine.

20

A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w y o u a ls o m e n ti o n e d M r D a n ie l M t h u mk h u l u i n
p a r a g r a p h 5 1 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it .

W h a t r o l e d id h e p l a y i n – i n t h e

f o r m u l a ti o n o f t h e s e p o li c i e s o r th e – t h e a w a r d o f t h e s e c o n tr a c t s ?
MR MOLEFE:

M r D a n i e l M t h u m k h u l u is s o m e b o d y d e s ig n a te d C h i e f

E n g i n e e r a t t h e t i m e a t P R A S A a lt h o u g h e v i d e n c e la t e r d e m o n s tr a t e d
t h a t h e h a d n o t h i n g t h a t w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t h i m a n y w h e r e n e a r b e in g

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c a l l e d C h ie f E n g in e e r w a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r m o s t o f th e s e p r o g r a m m e s .
H e w o r k e d v e r y c l o s e l y w i t h Mr M a k h e n s a . H e is th e k i n d o f a p e r s o n
w h o w o u l d h a v e m a d e s u b m is s i o n s to t h e G r o u p C E O o n a p p r o v a ls o f a
r a n g e o f t h e s e p r o j e c ts . I w il l b e g u id e d b y C o u n s e l . I c a n g o o n a n d
d e a l w it h o th e r s w h e r e h e h a s g o t a r o l e b e c a u s e n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : I d o n o t k n o w h o w fa r t o g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : B u t m a y b e I s h o u l d le a v e t h a t f o r w h e n w e c o m e t o s o m e
10

o f t h o s e p o i n ts .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e – w e w i ll a n d w e w i ll – w e w il l d e a l w i t h w h a t
t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l e s p e c ia ll y s a id a b o u t Mr M t h u mk h u l u . S o
w e – w e – I w a n t t o r e t u r n to t h a t b e c a u s e th is i s s o m e th i n g t h a t is
i m p o r t a n t fo r t h e c o m m i s s i o n fo r o n e b u t a ls o s o m e t h i n g th a t h a s to b e
s e t o u t i n p u b l ic .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w h a t m ig h t n o t a b a d i d e a M r M o le f e i s t h a t

y o u m a k e a n o t e o f s o m e o f th e i s s u e s t h a t y o u b e li e v e a r e i m p o r ta n t
a n d a t t h e e n d o f M r S o n i ’s q u e s ti o n s i f I c a n g iv e y o u a c h a n c e i f th e r e
a r e o t h e r m a t t e r s t h a t y o u b e li e v e a r e i m p o r ta n t th a t y o u s h o u l d te ll m e
20

t h e n y o u c a n d e a l w i t h t h o s e i f – if y o u b e li e v e t h a t th e y a r e i m p o r t a n t.
Ja.
M R M O L E F E : I a m h a p p y t o d o s o C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , Ye s . O k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w t h e r e a f te r j u s t c o m in g t o Mr M t h u m k h u l u y o u
– y o u i n f a c t r e fe r r e d to th e j u d g m e n ts o f t h e H ig h C o u r t i n t h e s e – o f

Page 17 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
t h e H i g h C o u r t a n d t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l in t h e S w if a m b o
m a t t e r a n d t h e c o m m e n t s th e y m a d e a b o u t M t h u mk h u l u .

Yo u s a y a t

p a r a g r a p h 5 5 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t.
MR MOLEF E: I do Sir – I do Chairperson.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w c a n w e t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e S w i fa m b o m a t t e r

a n d M r M o l e f e y o u r a ff id a v i t r e fe r s to t h e – th e j u d g m e n t m a i n ly o f t h e
S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l a n d w e w il l r e fe r s p e c i fi c a lly t o c e r ta in
p a r a g r a p h s o f th e j u d g m e n t .

B e fo r e w e d o th a t c a n y o u t e ll th e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t th e S w i f a m b o c o n tr a c t e n ta il e d ?
10

M R M O L E F E : C h a ir m a n t h e S w i f a m b o c o n tr a c t e n t a il e d th e – i n i ti a lly i t
w a s i n te n d e d t o b e – a n d t h a t is w h a t w a s a r tic u la t e d i n t h e R F P t h e
le a s in g o f l o c o m o t iv e s w h i c h w o u ld b e u s e d f o r h e r e w h a t w a s c a ll e d
t h e M i n e L i n e P a s s e n g e r S e r v ic e s b u t a l s o u s e d i n r o u te s i n t h e – i n
t h e M e tr o a r e a s w h e r e o f c o u r s e t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f f a i l u r e s o f o l d
lo c o m o t iv e s w h i c h w e s a i d w e r e n o t r e - c a p i ta li s e d f o r 4 0 y e a r s .

So

t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e . B u t o f c o u r s e in t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t p r o c e s s o f
procurement I suppose something

th a t ty p i f ie s h o w p r o c u r e m e n t

p r o c e s s e s w e r e m a n ip u l a t e d s u d d e n l y S w i f a m b o w a s a l lo w e d t o – t o
o ffe r a p r o p o s a l o n t h e m a n u f a c t u r i n g o f l o c o m o tiv e s w h ic h w a s n o t
20

p a r t o f th e R F P r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n in g . S o th e p r o c e s s w e n t o n , t h e r e
w e r e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s o f w h a t w o u l d b e n e e d e d b y P R A S A b e c a u s e
P R A S A w a s g o i n g t o o p e r a t e o n th e r a il t r a c k s a n d s i g n a ll in g s y s t e m s
t h a t h a d b e e n d e s i g n e d b y – a t t h e t i m e w h e n Tr a n s n e t w a s s ti ll t h a t
b i g o r g a n i s a t io n w i t h e v e r y o n e i n s i d e a n d t h e y – w h a t w a s t o b e le a s e d
or

procured

needed

t o c o m p ly

w it h

the

Page 18 of 146

R a il S a f e ty

Regulators

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
r e q u ir e m e n t s o r t h e y w o u l d h a v e h a d to b e a p p r o v e d b y th e R a il S a f e ty
R e g u l a t o r b u t th e y a l s o n e e d e d t o c o m p ly w i t h r a il n e tw o r k o f Tr a n s n e t.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Now you have intimate knowledge of the

S w if a m b o m a t te r b e c a u s e y o u m a d e t h e a ffi d a v i t s in s u p p o r t o f
P R A S A’s a p p li c a t i o n t o r e v i e w a n d s e t a s i d e th o s e a w a r d s , a m I
correct?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w ju s t a g a i n , a s a g e n e r a l p r o p o s i ti o n , w i th o u t

g o i n g i n t o d e ta ils , w h a t w e r e t h e p o i n ts t h a t y o u t o o k , w h e n I s a y y o u ,
10

I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t P R A S A t o o k i n a s k i n g t h e C o u r t t o r e v i e w a n d s e t
a s i d e th e a w a r d o f t h e c o n tr a c t t o S w if a m b o ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e in v e s ti g a t io n , C h a ir p e r s o n th a t w e c o n d u c t e d

d e m o n s t r a t e d , c o n c l u s iv e l y th a t , t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s f la w e d ,
was

corrupt

–

w e ll

let

me

say

corrupted

that

S w if a m b o

i ts e l f

n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h e f a c t t h a t i t d id n o t m e e t th e r e q u ir e m e n t s e t o u t in
t h e R F P, t h is b e in g a m o n g s t o t h e r s , t h e n e e d fo r t h e m to h a v e a tr a c k
r e c o r d in r a il b u s i n e s s , e i t h e r b e i n g l e a s i n g o r m a n u fa c t u r e t h e y
n e e d e d a tr a c k r e c o r d . S e c o n d ly th e y n e e d e d to d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t t h e y
h a d th e s k il ls n e c e s s a r y t o c a r r y o u t a p r o g r a m m e o f th a t s i z e a n d a s
20

c o m p le x a s i t w a s . Th e t h ir d p o i n t w a s t h a t th e y n e e d e d t o h a v e , a n d I
t h i n k i t w ill b e a n e l e m e n t th a t i n c l u d e s t h a t c a p a c i ty, s u ffic i e n t
q u a li fi e d p e o p l e to c a r r y o u t th e p r o g r a m m e .

F o u r t h ly i t w a s a

r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t a b o n d d e p o s i t o f 1 0 % o f th e v a l u e o f th e c o n t r a c t b e
p a i d u p fr o n t . T h e y a ls o n e e d e d t o d e m o n s tr a te t h a t t h e y w o u l d b e a b l e
t o i m p le m e n t t h e l o c a l c o n te n t r e q u ir e m e n t w h i c h is o f te n in c l u d e d i n

Page 19 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
t h e P P P FA .
q u a li fy.

N o w in r e s p e c t o f a l l o f th o s e m a t t e r s , S w i f a m b o d i d n o t

I n e e d e d to h a v e s a y – s a i d a ls o e a r li e r o n w h e n I s a i d th a t

t h e r e w a s a n e e d t o c o m p ly w i t h t h e r a i l s a fe t y n e t w o r k , th e r a il
s y s te m s n e t w o r k i n S o u t h A fr ic a , t h a t i n fa c t , i n i t ia ll y, w h a t s h o u ld h a v e
b e e n p r o c u r e d b y P R A S A w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t h e c o n te x t o f E u r o p e a n d
S p a i n w o u ld h a v e b e e n E u r o 3 0 0 0 a n d E u r o 3 0 0 0 i s a m o d e l o f a
lo c o m o t iv e

th a t

would

have

c o m p l ie d

in

all

r e s p e c ts

with

the

r e q u ir e m e n t o f S o u t h A fr ic a i n c lu d in g Is r a e l , N a r r o w - g a u g e , th e h e ig h t
o f th e e le c tr i c p y l o n s , t h e p a n t o g r a p h o n t o p o f t h e lo c o m o t iv e a n d s o
10

o n b u t i n th e e n d w h a t w a s p r o c u r e d w a s w h a t w a s k n o w n a s E u r o
4000.
I t w a s s o b e c a u s e t h e c o m p a n y Vo s s l o h w h ic h , a t th is s t a g e
w a s n o t b i d d i n g t o s u p p ly t h e s e l o c o m o tiv e s w a s a ls o a d v is i n g P R A S A
o n w h a t i t n e e d e d a n d th a t c o m p a n y, i n E u r o p e , i n S p a in a n d B a r c e l o n a
h a d a l r e a d y d i s c o n t in u e d th e p r o d u c t io n li n e f o r E u r o 3 0 0 0 a n d th e y
s t a r t e d t h e p r o d u c t io n l in e fo r E u r o 4 0 0 0 . I t w o u l d a p p e a r th a t th e y d i d
s o b e c a u s e th e r e w a s n o l o n g e r t r a c ti o n fo r t h a t p r o d u c t w h e r e th e y
w e r e s e ll in g th e i r l o c o m o tiv e s . S o th e y t h e n i n fl u e n c e d P R A S A t o b u y
w h a t , m o r e o r l e s s , w a s fr o m th e s h e lf , n o l o n g e r – a c c o r d i n g to th e

20

s p e c i f ic a ti o n s s e t i n t h e R P F a n d i n te r e s t in g l y e n o u g h , I d o n ’ t w a n t to
g o i n t o th e d e t a il s o f w h a t h a p p e n e d i n C o u r t , b u t t h e e v i d e n c e th a t
e m e r g e d a ls o w a s t h a t , i n fa c t, t h e c o m p a n y t h a t b e c a m e th e s u b c o n tr a c to r o f S w if a m b o , b u t o n ly a f t e r t h e c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d w i th
S w if a m b o w h ic h h a d n o t h i n g – n o c a p a c it y t o p r o v i d e lo c o m o t iv e s . In
t h e ir o w n r e p o r t , i n d ic a t e d t h a t, i n f a c t , t h e y w e r e in t r o u b l e . S o

Page 20 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
P R A S A’s c o n tr a c t w a s th e b ig g e s t e v e r a n d a l if e s a v e r f o r Vo s s l o h . I
d o n e e d t o s a y t h a t – I w a s a s k e d a b o u t M r D a n ie l M t h i m k h u lu e a r li e r
o n , D a n i e l M t h i m k h u l u w a s p r e t ty c e n tr a l t o t h e d e s i g n o f th e
s p e c i f ic a ti o n s , h e h a d i n t e r a c te d v e r y c l o s e ly w it h Vo s s l o h , h e w a s t h e
o n e in v i t e d b y Vo s s lo h t o p e r s u a d e th e c o m p a n y, P R A S A t o g o a l o n g
w i t h E u r o 4 0 0 0 w h ic h l a t e r w a s b a p t is e d in S o u t h A fr ic a t o A fr o 4 0 0 0 .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

T h a t ’s t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h a t ’s w h a t y o u h a d

s e t o u t i n y o u r a ff id a v i t i n s u p p o r t o f t h e r e v i e w a p p l ic a ti o n , w o u l d I b e
correct.
10

MR MOLEFE:

T h a t is s o s ir, i t’s e a s y t o s a y [i n d is t in c t] C h a ir p e r s o n

t h a t I h a d n o o c c a s io n t o r e f r e s h m y m e m o r y b u t - b y r e a d i n g th e
a ffi d a v i ts b u t i f t h e r e a r e m i n o r d i ff e r e n c e s r e a lly th e y – I d o n ’ t t h i n k
t h e y ’l l b e m a te r i a l , I th i n k w h a t I’ v e p r e s e n t e d is t h e e s s e n c e o f th e
message.
CHAIRPERSON:

And I think what you have presented seems to be

v e r y m u c h i n li n e w i th t h e ju d g e m e n t s t h a t w e r e g i v e n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o c a n I t h e n s a y t h e fir s t is s u e th a t I w a n t t o d e a l
w i t h i s th e – w e l l w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e w h e n t h e m a t t e r w e n t t o t h e
G a u t e n g L o c a l D iv is i o n i n J o h a n n e s b u r g , t h e o u tc o m e o f th e r e v i e w
20

a p p lic a ti o n ?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n t h e m a t t e r w e n t to t h e G a u t e n g H i g h

C o u r t , o u r a p p lic a ti o n – fir s t ly l e t m e s a y w a s t o h a v e t h e c o n t r a c t
d e c l a r e d ir r e g u l a r a n d t o h a v e i t s e t o u t s i d e a s b e in g u n l a w f u l, t h a t i s
w h a t th e C o u r t g r a n t e d , i t d e c l a r e d , i n a v e r y s c a th in g ju d g m e n t t h a t ,
t h a t c o n tr a c t w a s c o r r u p t e d f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g , i t w a s ir r e g u l a r, i t w a s

Page 21 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
u n l a w f u l a n d f a i le d to b e s e t a s id e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

O k a y w e d e a l w it h t h e b a s i s o n w h ic h w a s d o n e ,

t h e m a t t e r th e n w e n t t o t h e S C A .
MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e i s ju s t o n e p o i n t I n e e d t o m a k e , I h o p e c o u n s e l

d o e s n o t g e t ir r i ta t e d w it h m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

MR MOLEFE:

B e c a u s e I d o n ’ t k n o w if w e ’ r e g o i n g t o g e t t h e

o p p o r t u n i ty to g e t t o i t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
W e c o m e d o w n s h o w i n g t h e r e la t io n s h ip b e t w e e n M r

M o n ta n a a n d M a b u n d a .

W e t h e n d e a l m o r e w i t h h is r e la t io n s h ip w i t h

M t h i mk h u l u b u t i t w a s t h e r e b e c a u s e h e a p p o i n te d , th e n , t h i s C h i e f
E n g i n e e r a n d h e w a s r e p o r ti n g t o h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
I n t h a t c a s e b e f o r e th e H i g h C o u r t o f G a u t e n g , M r

M o n ta n a a p p li e d to b e c o m e t h e fr i e n d o f t h e C o u r t b u t b a s ic a l ly s a y i n g
t h a t t h e r e is e v i d e n c e t h a t P R A S A s h o u ld b e p la c i n g b e fo r e t h e C o u r t ,
it i s n o t.

One would have expected that he would say to PRASA, I

w o r k e d i n t h is c o m p a n y th e r e a r e t h e s e o t h e r m a t te r s t h a t y o u s e e m t o
20

h a v e l e f t o u t , h e d i d n o t b u t w h a t e m e r g e d i n t h a t – h is a p p li c a t io n , w a s
t h a t fu n d a m e n t a l ly h e w a n t e d t o d e f e n d t h e S w i f a m b o c o n tr a c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

S o c a n I t h e n , j u s t o n t h a t p o in t , M r M o l e f e , a s k

y o u t o l o o k a t t h e j u d g m e n ts b u n d l e p l e a s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t te ll h i m w h a t ’s w r i t t e n o n th e s p i n e . A ls o f o r t h e

Page 22 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
r e c o r d j u s t s a y w h a t i s w r i tt e n o n th e s p in e o f t h e b u n d le ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

C h a ir p e r s o n it w il l b e S S 3 – s o r r y S S 2 , j u d g m e n t s

it w i ll b e b u n d le A , S S 2 j u d g e m e n t s , u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t ’s B u n d le A .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e J u d g m e n t is … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Bundle A and SS2.

I t ’s th e fir s t ju d g m e n t i n th a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

J a o k a y, s o th a t ’s w h a t p a g e o f t h e b u n d l e i s i t ?

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

P a g e 3 , M r C h a ir p e r s o n – s o r r y p a g e 3 o f th e

r e c o r d – o f t h a t b u n d le .
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u r b u n d l e s n o t s e q u e n ti a l h e r e o r th e y a r e n o t

– o k a y i t ’s p a g e 1 o f th e j u d g m e n t th a t is th e j u d g m e n t o f J u d g e
Fr a n c i s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d t h e n i t w i ll b e t h e s e c o n d p a g e o f t h a t

ju d g e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e r e ’s s u p p o s e d t o b e – I t h in k t h a t ’s j u s t c o n f u s in g

b u t a r e y o u a b l e t o fi n d i t u n d e r S S 2 M r M o l e fe , y o u h a v e fo u n d i t?
MR MOLEFE:

I h a v e f o u n d i t c h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

J a o k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d f o r t h e r e c o r d M r C h a ir p e r s o n , th is w il l

appear at SS2, page 3. Could you read paragraph 3 of what Judge
Fr a n c i s s a i d i n to t h e r e c o r d , Mr M o l e f e ?
MR MOLEFE:
CHAIRPERSON

Are we on page 3?
W h a t p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r M r S o n i?

Page 23 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

P a g e 2 o f t h e ju d g e m e n t b u t p a g e 3 o f t h e B u n d le

of SS2.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I th i n k t e ll h i m t h e p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r o f t h e

ju d g e m e n t th a t y o u w a n t h i m t o r e a d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

P a r a g r a p h 3 Mr M o le f e .

Ja I think you may have said page 3.

Th a t i s w h a t c o n fu s e d m e i n i ti a lly w e s a i d p a g e 3 .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja I think he said page – okay paragraph 3, you want

him to read that part, that paragraph?
10

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

O k a y.

Th e p a r a g r a p h r e a d s a s f o l lo w s , C h a ir p e r s o n ,

“ A t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f th e p r o c e e d i n g s I h a d a n a p p lic a ti o n
b r o u g h t b y L a k h e M o n t a n a ( M o n ta n a ) w h o u s e d t o

b e t h e G r o u p C h ie f

E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r ( G C E O ) o f P R A S A t o b e a d m i t t e d a s a fr i e n d o f t h e
C o u r t . T h a t a p p lic a ti o n w a s
w e r e p r o v id e d i n a

separate judgment”.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:
20

d is m i s s e d w i t h c o s t s a n d r e a s o n s

S o t h a t i s t h e p o in t y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e ?

I m a d e e a r li e r o n .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M r C h a ir p e r s o n th a t j u d g e m e n t i s a v a i la b l e – t h e

a p p lic a ti o n p a p e r s a r e a v a il a b l e b u t w e w o u l d m a k e t h e m a v a il a b l e a n d
h a v e t h e m a s p a r t o f t h e r e c o r d i f y o u w is h , b u t h a v i n g c o n s i d e r e d t h e m
a s a w h o l e , w e d o n ’ t t h i n k it a d d s t o w h a t w e a r e c o n c e r n e d w i t h Mr
C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Page 24 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Then Mr Molefe, can I ask you to look at the

s e c o n d ju d g e m e n t t h e r e w h ic h i s – a p p e a r s a t p a g e 6 3 o f S S 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:

A s s u m in g th a t t h e d i v i d e r s h a v e th e s a m e c o l o u r s i t ’s

u n d e r 2 o f th e g r e e n d iv i d e r s . I t h i n k t h e – M r S o n i t h e – in th is b u n d l e
t h e p a g i n a t io n is s t il l n o t h o w i t s h o u l d b e fo r e v e r y th i n g t h a t’s i n t h e
s a m e b u n d l e th e r e s h o u l d b e a c o m p l e te p a g in a ti o n f r o m p a g e 1 u p t o
t h e e n d s o t h a t w h e n y o u s a y B u n d le A y o u j u s t s a y p a g e s o a n d s o
w i t h o u t h a v i n g t o l o o k a t t h e p a g e n u m b e r o f t h e p a r ti c u l a r d o c u m e n t .
S o m a y b e a t s o m e s t a g e t h a t c a n b e s o r t e d o u t a n d fo r a ll o th e r s t o
10

f o ll o w.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Ar e y o u th e r e M r M o le f e , h a v e y o u lo c a t e d t h e

ju d g e m e n t ?
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t ’s t h e ju d g e m e n t o f t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

I t w o u ld s e e m i n t h e d o c u m e n t i t i s r e c o r d e d a s p a g e 6 4

I have.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Ye s y o u w i ll s e e it s a y s S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l

Judgement.
20

MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w I w a n t t o r e f e r y o u to s o m e o f t h e

p a r a g r a p h s o f t h e ju d g e m e n t a n d c a n I s t a r t w i t h p a r a g r a p h 4 o f t h a t
ju d g e m e n t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e Mr S o n i , M r M o l e fe c a n j u s t m a k e t h e

i m p o r t a n t p o in ts w it h o u t r e a d i n g u n l e s s t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g s ig n i f ic a n t

Page 25 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
in a p a r ti c u l a r p a r a g r a p h , t h e n i t s h o u l d b e r e a d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w y o u w e r e m a k in g t h e p o in t t h a t i t w a s M r

M t h i mk h u l u w h o d r a f t e d th e s p e c s f o r t h is . W h a t d o e s th e S C A s a y i n
t h a t p a r a g r a p h r e g a r d in g th e r o l e o f M r M t h i m k h u l u ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e S C A , C h a i r p e r s o n , a n d I ’ m p a r a p h r a s in g , fo ll o w i n g

w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a s s a i d , h e l d t h a t - n o t e d th a t M r M t h i m k h u lu , a s
I s a id w a s t h e o n e w h o d r a f t e d th e m e m o r a n d u m a n d m a d e s u b m is s io n .
H e r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t P R A S A p r o c u r e s a t t h a t t i m e 1 0 0 l o c o m o ti v e s a t
t h e c o s t o f R 5 b i lli o n a n d c o r r e c tly s ta t in g t h a t – b e c a u s e t h e fl e e t t h a t
10

P R A S A h a d w a s o u td a t e d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n i f y o u t u r n t o p a r a g r a p h 7 … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
I c a n s a y, M r S o n i ,

a ls o t h a t b e c a u s e th is is a

ju d g e m e n t a s o p p o s e d to a n y o t h e r d o c u m e n t , it ’s q u i t e f in e to ju s t
h i g h l ig h t e v e n i f y o u h ig h li g h t .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:
conclusion

Ye s .
To s a y i n th is p a r a g r a p h t h i s is w h a t – t h i s is th e

reached

by

th e

Supreme

Court

of Appeal

and

that

p a r a g r a p h , ju s t h i g h li g h t t h e c o n c lu s i o n s a n d t h e n i f Mr M o l e f e w is h e s
t o a d d a n y p e r s p e c t iv e i n r e g a r d t o a n y c o n c l u s io n o f t h e C o u r t , t h e n
20

he can do so.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M r C h a ir p e r s o n , in t h e s e n s e , M r M o le f e ’s

a ffi d a v i t i ts e l f d o e s e x a c t ly t h a t a n d m a y b e i t w o u l d b e b e t t e r j u s t t o
d e a l w it h th e – b e c a u s e h e a c t u a l ly s e t s o u t w h ic h p a r a g r a p h h e ’s
speaking to.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Page 26 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d p e r h a p s I s h o u ld j u s t l e a d h i m o n h is

a ffi d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a i f h e h a s c a p t u r e d , a n d I th i n k h e h a s in h is

a ffi d a v i t w e d o n ’ t n e e d t o g o t o t h e j u d g e m e n t u n l e s s th e r e i s a
p a r a g r a p h w h e r e th e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g s p e c i a l a b o u t h o w i t’s p h r a s e d o r
a n y th in g l ik e t h a t . I f w e j u s t c a p t u r e w h a t w e r e t h e i m p o r ta n t f in d in g s
o r c o n c l u s io n s r e a c h e d b y t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l t h a t s h o u l d b e
enough.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

Ye s a n d I h a v e c h e c k e d t h e m o v e r a g a i n M r

C h a ir p e r s o n , th e y c o in c i d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o t h a t ’s f i n e a s I s a y, u n l e s s Mr M o l e f e h a s s o m e
i m p o r t a n t p e r s p e c t iv e t h a t h e w a n ts t o h i g h l ig h t in r e g a r d t o a n y
p a r t ic u l a r fi n d i n g .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

S o M r M o le f e , t o p la c e m a tt e r s o n r e c o r d c a n I

a s k y o u to s t a r t lo o k i n g a t y o u r a ffi d a v i t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 6 1 a n d ju s t
in d i c a t e w h a t – w h e r e t h e i m p o r t a n t p o i n ts m a d e b y th e S u p r e m e C o u r t ,
a s y o u c a p t u r e d i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d y o u d o n ’t h a v e t o r e a d e v e r y t h i n g
t h e r e , y o u c a n j u s t s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 6 th i s is w h a t t h e y d e a l t w i t h , th is
is w h a t th e y d e a l t w i th b u t i t ’s t h e n p a r t o f t h e r e c o r d o f th e e v i d e n c e
20

b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s io n M r M o l e fe , a r e y o u w i t h m e a t p a r a g r a p h 6 1 ?
MR MOLEFE:

I a m C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e p a r a g r a p h 6 1 C h a ir p e r s o n ,

c o n fir m s th e s t a t e m e n t I m a d e e a r l i e r o n th a t Mr M t h i m k h u l u , in J u ly
2 0 11 s u b m i t te d t o Mr M o n ta n a , a r e c o m m e n d a t io n i n r e s p e c t o f – i n
w h ic h h e w a s a s k in g a p p r o v a l f o r p r o c u r e m e n t o f 1 0 0 lo c o m o t iv e s o v e r
a p e r io d o f s i x y e a r s b u t a R F P w a s t h e n p u b lis h e d i n N o v e m b e r o f t h e

Page 27 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
s a m e y e a r, t h e R F P r e c o m m e n d e d – w e l l w a s c a ll i n g fo r p r o c u r e m e n t o f
8 8 l o c o m o ti v e s . M y r e c o l le c ti o n is t h a t , a t t h e e n d o f t h a t p r o c e s s , in
the

fi n a l

a n a ly s is ,

only

70

l o c o m o t iv e s

were

ordered.

So

t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

B u t f o r th e – a n d w h a t w a s t h e p r ic e , w a s t h e r e

going to be a change in price?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e p r ic e s w o u l d c h a n g e a n d t h e p r ic e c h a n g e d t h e n

fr o m R 5 b il li o n t o R 3 . 4 b il li o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h e n I r e a d th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l j u d g e m e n t

I d i d n ’ t p ic k u p a n y th in g t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e C o u r t th a t
e x p l a i n e d h o w t h e n u m b e r o f l o c o m o tiv e s j u m p e d f r o m 8 8 t o 1 0 0 , I m a y
h a v e m is s e d i t . D o y o u r e c a l l i f th e r e w a s a n y i n fo r m a ti o n a s t o h o w
t h e n u m b e r j u m p e d fr o m 8 8 t o 1 0 0 ?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n m y - i n d e a l i n g – a t t e m p ti n g t o d e a l w i t h

t h a t q u e s t io n I m u s t s a y th a t m y e x p e r ie n c e a s w e – a s a B o a r d w e r e
in t e r r o g a ti n g t h e s e m a t te r s .

We found that no hedging or no correct

f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y h e d g i n g w a s e ff e c t e d , b u il t i n t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r ic e
t o t h e e x te n t t h a t i t w a s d o n e .

It was, for example, one that put

e x c h a n g e r a t e s o f r a n d to E u r o a t R 1 0 . 4 0 p e r E u r o .
20

B y t h e ti m e t h i s

procurement happened the exchange rate had changed so the hedging
w a s n o t p r o te c ti n g P R A S A a g a in s t t h e e s c a l a t io n .

So as the Euro

b e c a m e s tr o n g e r a n d t h e r a n d w e a k e r t h e p r i c e s w e n t u p a n d w h e n t h e
p r i c e w e n t u p t h e b u d g e t b e in g w h a t i t w a s f o r 8 8 l o c o m o ti v e s , P R A S A
c o u l d n o lo n g e r – o r l e t m e s t a r t o ff , b e i n g f o r 1 0 0 l o c o m o t iv e s , c o u l d
n o t a ffo r d to p a y f o r 1 0 0 l o c o m o t iv e s b e c a u s e i t w o u l d h a v e th e n m e a n t

Page 28 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
t h a t i t w o u ld n e e d t o p u t m o r e m o n e y t o m e e t t h i s e s c a l a ti o n o f th e
Euro.

S o th a t is w h a t th e n c a u s e d m a n a g e m e n t to c o n s t a n t ly r e d u c e

t h e n u m b e r s t o tr y a n d d e a l w i t h s o m e t h i n g th a t th e y b e l i e v e d w o u l d b e
manageable.
CHAIRPERSON:

I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d s o m e t h in g , I t h o u g h t y o u

s a i d t h e R F P h a d c o n t e m p la t e d 8 8 lo c o m o ti v e s b u t u l t i m a te ly w h a t w a s
o r d e r e d w a s 1 0 0 a n d I w a s a s k in g a b o u t t h a t ju m p b u t w h a t y o u h a v e
ju s t t o ld m e s e e m s t o s u g g e s t t h a t 1 0 0 m a y h a v e b e e n c o n t e m p la t e d
b u t b e c a u s e o f th e r e h a v i n g b e e n n o h e d g i n g t h e n a le s s e r n u m b e r o f
10

lo c o m o t iv e s h a d to b e o b ta i n e d ?
MR MOLEFE:

I t h in k I w a s m is t a k e n , l e t m e tr y a n d t a k e i t in a

c h r o n o lo g ic a l o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s .

To c l a r i fy m a t te r s C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
A m e m o r a n d u m f o r p r o c u r e m e n t o f 1 0 0 l o c o m o ti v e s is

s u b m i tt e d t o M r M o n t a n a b y Mr M t h i m k h u l u in J u ly 2 0 11 , h e s a y s l e t’s
b u y 1 0 0 l o c o m o tiv e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s .

H o w e v e r w h e n th e R F P i s is s u e d , P R A S A s a y s n o w e ’l l

p r o c u r e 8 8 l o c o m o t iv e s .

I h a v e n o r e c o l l e c ti o n o f a n y m o tiv a ti o n w h y

M r M t h i m k h u lu ’s r e q u e s t f o r 1 0 0 l o c o m o ti v e s w a s n o t a c c e p t e d a s w a s .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y.
N o w – s o t h e o r d e r is t h e n – th e R F P e n v is a g e s 8 8

lo c o m o t iv e s b u t b e c a u s e o f t h e p a s s a g e o f ti m e , a n d a t t h a t ti m e th e

Page 29 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
p r i c e t a g w a s R 1 0 . 4 0 b u t a s ti m e la p s e d t h e E u r o w a s e s c a l a ti n g ,
g e t t in g s tr o n g e r, t h e r a n d w e a k e r.

E v e n t h e 8 8 l o c o m o t iv e s c o u ld n o

lo n g e r b e a ffo r d a b l e o n t h e b u d g e t t h a t w a s s e t a s id e a t th a t t i m e . S o
m a n a g e m e n t t h e n r e d u c e d t h e n u m b e r s a g a i n I t h in k t o a l e s s e r t h a n 8 8
lo c o m o t iv e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, n o n o w I u n d e r s ta n d , I t h i n k I m a y h a v e

g o t th e 8 8 a n d 1 0 0 w r o n g fr o m w h a t y o u s a y, t h e 1 0 0 c a m e fr o m t h e
m e m o r a n d u m f r o m M r M t h i m k h u l u t o M r M o n t a n a b u t a t t h e ti m e o f t h e
R F P 8 8 w a s t h e n u m b e r t h a t w a s p u t t o t h e R F P.
10

MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

C h a ir p e r s o n j u s t a g a i n , if I c a n p u t o n m y

la w y e r ’s h a t, o n e o f t h e p o in t s t h a t t h is m a d e is , t h e r e w a s n ’ t a n e e d
a n a ly s is fo r h o w m a n y e x a c tl y w e r e r e q u ir e d . S o t h a t a ls o , i n a s e n s e
t a i n te d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s b e c a u s e w h e n o n e p r o c u r e s f o r t h a t
a m o u n t o f m o n e y o n e n e e d s t o s a y, w e ll w e n e e d 2 0 o r w e n e e d 5 0 o r
w e n e e d 1 0 0 a n d i f y o u r e a d , b o th t h e j u d g e m e n t o f J u s tic e F r a n c is a n d
J u s t ic e L e w i s y o u w i ll s e e , M r C h a ir p e r s o n , t h a t i s p a r t o f t h e t h e m e
t h a t e m e r g e s , a s i d e fr o m t h e is s u e t h a t M r M o le f e … [ in t e r v e n e s ]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, o k a y th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Ye s a n d th e n M r M o l e fe y o u h a d fi n i s h e d n o w w i t h

M r – w h a t th e s p e c if ic a ti o n s w e r e . A t p a r a g r a p h 6 2 y o u d e t a il w h a t t h e
S C A s a id a b o u t Mr M t h i mk h u l u , c o u l d y o u p l a c e th a t o n r e c o r d ?
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e C o u r t h e l d – t h e S C A h e l d t h a t Mr

M t h i mk h u l u h a d n o e x p e r t is e f o r – o n t h e s u b j e c t t h a t h e w a s g i v e n

Page 30 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r b u t i t a ls o n o t e d t h a t h e h a d b e e n , i f y o u l ik e , j u s t
e l e v a te d

and

promoted

to

that

p o s i ti o n

of

Chief

E n g in e e r

and

…[intervenes].
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:

By Whom?

B y M r M o n ta n a a n d t h e C o u r t n o te d t h a t h i s r i s e w a s

m a t u r i n g , I d o n ’ t k n o w g o o d E n g l is h , b u t I th i n k i t m e a n s th a t v e r y
r a p i d , v e r y f a s t , c o n c o m i t a n t ly w h a t – t o g e th e r w it h t h i s r is e w a s a ls o
t h e r is e i n h is s a l a r y i n c r e a s e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

A n d a s r e g a r d s h i s q u a li f ic a ti o n s w h a t d i d th e

SCA say?
MR MOLEFE:

Th e S C A h a d e s t a b li s h e d – h e l d th a t h e d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e

q u a li fi c a t io n a n d i t a r r i v e d a t t h a t c o n c lu s io n , C h a ir p e r s o n , b e c a u s e in
v a r io u s w a y s M r M t h i mk h u l u h a d l i e d a b o u t h is q u a li f ic a ti o n s .

He

c la i m e d t h a t h e h a d a B a c h e lo r o f – B a c h e l o r d e g r e e i n te c h n ic a l – i n
e n g in e e r i n g , s o m e t h i n g lik e t h a t a n d h e a l s o l a t e r a r g u e d th a t h e h a d a
P H D , D o c t o r a te fr o m a G e r m a n U n iv e r s i ty a n d in o n e m e e ti n g w h e r e I
s a t w i t h h i m h e p r o d u c e d a l e tt e r, b e c a u s e w e s a i d , s h o w u s t h e a w a r d
t h a t y o u q u a li fy, y o u h a v e t h is q u a l if ic a ti o n a n d h e p r o d u c e d a l e tt e r, I
s a i d , n o , n o t h e a w a r d o f a D o c to r a t e i s n o t d o n e in t h i s w a y. W h y is i t
20

t h a t th is a p p e a r s t o b e j u s t a le t t e r t h a t y o u w o u l d j u s t s h o w t o p e o p l e ,
w h e r e w e w a n t t o s e e t h e r e a l a w a r d b y t h e U n iv e r s it y. H e d i d n o t h a v e
t h a t , in th e e n d o f c o u r s e , it w a s e s t a b li s h e d t h a t h e d i d n ’ t e v e n h a v e
t h e t e c h n ic a l d i p l o m a t h a t h e s a i d h e h a d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w o n e o f t h e m a t t e r s t h a t th e S C A d e a l s w i t h in

p a r a g r a p h 7 is … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
MR MOLEFE:

W e l l m a y b e C h a ir p e r s o n , I s h o u l d s a y th a t i n o r d e r f o r

M r M t h i mk h u l u t o g e t w h e r e h e g o t t o , h e l ie d a t d i ff e r e n t ti m e s . A t o n e
p o i n t h e l ie d t o t h e B o a r d a n d t o M r M o n t a n a th a t a c o m p a n y c a l l e d D P
S h a n c k e i n G e r m a n y h a d o ff e r e d h i m a j o b a n d h e w a s g o i n g t o le a v e
t h e c o u n tr y t o g o a n d w o r k i n G e r m a n y a n d M r M o n t a n a b e li e v in g t h a t
M r M t h i m k h u l u is a n a s s e t t o P R A S A s a i d , n o d o n ’t g o w e w i ll p a y y o u
w h a t th a t c o m p a n y w a s g o in g t o p a y y o u . S o t h a t ’s h o w h e f o u n d h is
w a y, I ju s t w a n t e d t o p u t t h a t o n r e c o r d a s w e ll .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

MR MOLEFE:

W a s th e r e s u c h a n o f f e r ?

Th e r e w a s – i t w a s a f a k e le t t e r t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s

p r o v e d th a t t h e r e h a d n e v e r b e e n s u c h a n o ff e r. T h e c o m p a n y t h a t h e
s a i d m a d e h i m a n o ff e r d id n ’t e v e n k n o w h i m .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d a s r e g a r d s h is q u a li f ic a t i o n j u s t r e a d th e l a s t

s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 6 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t , w h a t d i d t h e S C A s a y a b o u t
h is q u a li f ic a ti o n s .
MR MOLEFE:

Th e S C A c a t e g o r ic a l ly s a y s ,

“ I n f a c t h e h a d n o q u a l if ic a ti o n a t a ll ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

Te ll m e , d id y o u e v e r, a t a n y s ta g e a t P R A S A , g e t to

k n o w w h e t h e r, i n h is p e r s o n n e l f il e t h a t P R A S A i s s u p p o s e d to h a v e
20

k e p t, w h e t h e r th e r e w e r e d o c u m e n ts t h a t p u r p o r t e d to b e d e g r e e
c e r t if ic a te s , d i p l o m a c e r ti fi c a t e s th a t h e m a y h a v e u s e d t o m i s l e a d
w h o e v e r a p p o in t e d h i m o r p r o m o t e d h i m t o v a r i o u s p o s i ti o n s o r d i d h e
ju s t s a y I ’v e g o t th is q u a l i fic a ti o n a n d t h a t w a s a c c e p t e d , w a s t h a t
s o m e t h i n g y o u e v e r g o t to k n o w ?
MR MOLEFE:

My r e c o ll e c t io n i s t h a t h e p r o d u c e d l e tt e r s f r o m v a r i o u s

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
in s t i tu t io n s a n d I t h i n k i n th e c a s e o f t h e Va a l Te c h n i c a l C o ll e g e w h ic h
is h e r e i n t h e S o u t h o f G a u te n g Pr o v in c e , h e p r o d u c e d w h a t p u r p o r t e d
t o b e a d i p lo m a .

Th e i n s ti t u ti o n r e je c t e d t h a t a n d s a i d t h a t it w a s a

f a k e d ip lo m a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w in r e g a r d t o … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

Mr Soni, you must help to keep your eye on time, we

n e e d to t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , w e n o r m a lly t a k e it a t q u a r t e r p a s t
eleven.
10

L e t ’s t a k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , it ’s n o w tw e n ty - t w o m i n u te s

p a s t, w e w il l r e s u m e a t tw e n ty to t w e lv e , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, le t u s p r o c e e d .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

As y o u p le a s es Mr C h a ir p er so n .

Mr Mo le fe y o u

w e r e sa y in g th a t Mr Mth imk h u lu w e ll ac c or d in g to th e SC A fu n d s
Mr Mth imk h u lu h a d n o q u a lific a tio n s , wh a t d id th e y s a y ab o u t a n d , we
h a v e d e a lt w ith th is in y o ur e v id en c e , w h at w a s th e fin d in g in r e g a r d to
th e s p e c ific a tio n s dr a w n u p by Mr Mth imk h u lu .
20

MR MO LEFE:

Th e – th e fir s t p o in t th a t th e C o u r t ma k es is th a t

Mr Mth imk h u lu c o n tr a v e ne d th e Pr o c u r e me n t Po lic y o f PR ASA w h ic h
me a n s Su p p ly C ha in Ma n a ge me n t Pr o ce ss th a t h e a c tua lly us e d th e
s p e c ific a tio n p ro v id ed to h im b y Vo s s lo h h e ma k e s th a t w h a t PR ASA
p r o c ur e d to s u it w h a t Vo s s lo h o r e q u ire d a n d Vo s s lo h a s I e a r lie r in d ic a te d
in my e v id e n c e h a d in Ma y o f 2 0 11 g iv e n a d v ic e to PR ASA o n w h a t its

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
r e q u ir e men t s h o u ld b e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d

w h a t d id

it

–

s o r ry, s o rr y

yo u

w er e

... [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

It is o k a y.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

W h a t d id it s a y a b o u t Mr Mth imk u h u lu ’s , a b o u t h o w

Mr Mth imk h u lu d e te r min e d th o s e s p e c ific a tio n s , y o u r e fe r to it in y o u r
a ffid a v it w h e n y o u s a y th e SC A a g r e e d a t p ar a g r ap h 6 3 .
MR MO LEFE:

We ll – w e ll b a s ic a lly th e y ou r fin d in g s a n d it w a s in o u r

in v e s tig a tio ns a s w e ll th a t Mr M th imk h u lu ta ilo r e d th e s p e c ific a tio n s to b e
10

in lin e w ith w h a t th e c o mp a n y a t Vo s s lo h r eq u ir e d a n d in th e a n d it h a d n o
r e le v an c e to th e ne e ds o f PR ASA th e r e w a s no s tr a te g ic p ro c ur e me n t
p la n n in g .
Th e r e w as n o n e e d a na lys is as w e s a id e a r lie r o n b u t th e y
p r o c ee d e d th e n to p r o c u re th is lo c o mo tiv e to b e n e fit b o th Sw ifa mb o a n d
Vo s s lo h a n d c le a r ly th e r e fo re th a t it w a s wha t th e C o u r t s ta te s is th a t th e
– th e te n d e r p r o c es s w as c or r u p t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w, in r e g a r d to Mr Mth imk h u lu ’s a c tio n s wh a t d id

Fr a n c is J s a y re g a rd in g h is s ta te o f min d ?
MR MO LEFE:
20

Th e H o n o u r a b le J u dg e c on c lu d e d th a t Mr Mth imk hu lu

c o n d uc te d h imse lf in a d is ho n e s t ma nn e r an d th a t e v e n Sw ifa mb o w h ich
is th e c o mp a n y th a t h e a w a r d e d th e te n d e r to , d id n o t d e n y th a t
c o n c lus io n .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d in r e g a r d to Mr Mo n ta n a ’s r o le in th is p r a c tic e

o f D o c to r – o f Mr Mth imk h u lu w h a t d id th e S C A s a y ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e SC A c o n c lu d e d th a t Mr Mo n ta n a ’s c o n d uc t w a s h e w as

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
p a r ty to th e c o n d u c t o f Mth imk h u lu .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d a s r e g a r d s th e e n tir e p r o c e s s o f Sw ifa mb o

b id d in g b u t r e ly in g o n Vossloh w h a t d id Fr a n c is J a n d th e SC A fin d ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e SC A fo u n d th a t Sim fa mb o w a s a c tu a lly fr o n tin g fo r

Vo s s lo ho , b e c a u se a ll th a t it h a d s a id to PR ASA it c o u ld n o t d o . Bu t i t is s
a ls o s o Ch a ir p er s on b e ca u s e a t th e time w h e n th e a w ar d w as g r a n te d
th e y d id n o t e v e n ha v e th e su b c on tr a c to r w ith th e ir te c h n ic a l p ar tn e r.
Th e y d id no t h a v e th a t e nv is ag e d te ch n ica l p a r tn e r w a s to be
Vo s s lo ho .
10

An d I d o n e e d to s a y th a t in o n e me e tin g o f my s e lf a n d

d ir e c to rs o f PR ASA w h e r e Sw ifa mb o h a d c o me to a s k fo r th e Bo a r d to
s u p p or t a n d a p p r ov e , I th in k , a n a d d e n d u m.
Th e r e

had

been, you

k n ow, s u b mittin g

v a r io u s

a d de n d a

b e c a us e th in g s w er e c h an g in g fo r th e m w a ntin g mo r e mo n e y a n d s o o n . I
th in k th is o n e w a s th e th ir d a d d e n du m. I h a d o c c as io n in th a t me e tin g to
a s k th e m if a t th e ti me o f p r o c u r e me n t th e y a lr e a dy h a d Vo s s lo h o a s th e ir
p a r tn e r a n d th e y s a id :
“N o n o , w e w a n te d fir s t th e te n d e r to b e a w a r d e d a n d
a fte r th a t w e a r e g o in g to ta ilo r th e s u b c o n tr a c t w e
s ig n w ith Vo s s lo h o in lin e w ith w h a t th e a w a r d s a ys ,
20

th e c o n tr a c t th a t w e s ig n w ith PR ASA. ”
N o w th a t is p u ttin g th e c ar t b e fo r e th e h ors e , b e c au s e th e aw a r d s h o u ld
n o t h a v e b e en a p p ro v ed w ith o u t d e mo ns tra tio n o f th is c a p a c ity an d th e
fa c t th a t th e y w o u ld h a v e b e e n a s u b c o n tr a cto r a lr e a d y w ith a s u b c o n tr a c t
c o n c lud e d . Th e r e w a s n o su b c on tr a c t c o nc lu d e d .
Th a t is my a d d itio n , C h a irp e rs o n , o n th is pa r t. I a m n o t q u o tin g

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
th e ju d g me n t.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Yo u s a id a fe w min u te s a g o th a t th e Su p r e me C o u r t o f

Ap p e a l, I th in k th a t is w h a t y o u s a id , y o u mig h t h a v e b e e n ta lk in g a b o u t
th e H ig h C o u r t ju d g me n t th a t th e y s a id th a t Mr Mo n ta n a w a s p a r ty to
Mr Mth imk h u lu ’s c o n d uc t d id I u n d e r s ta n d th a t c o r r ec tly ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is s o .

C H A IR PER SO N:

N o w y o u h a v e s a id , a n d I r e me mb e r th a t i t is in th e

ju d g me n t th a t th e Su p r e me C o ur t o f Ap p e a l Mr Mth imk h u lu co n d uc te d
h ims e lf in a d is h o n e s t ma n n er.
10

D id y o u h a v e a n y u n d e rs ta n d in g w h e th er th e Su p r e me C o u r t o f
Ap p e a l s a y in g Mr Mo n ta n a w a s p ar ty to Mr Mth imk h u lu ’s c o n d uc t w h e th e r
it w e n t to , i t s o u g h t to s a y h e w a s p a r ty to d is h o n es t c o n d uc t a s w e ll o r it
ma y h a v e s imp ly me a n t th a t h e w a s p a r ty to c e r ta in a c tiv itie s b u t n o t
n e c es s ar ily th e d is h on e s t p a r t.

So , I a m ju s t lo o k in g fo r y o ur o w n

u n d e rs ta n d in g . O b v io us ly o n e c an mis c o ns tr u e th e ju d g me n t.
MR MO LEFE:

O n ly I w o u ld b e c a r e fu l n o t to mis c o n s tr u e th e ju d g me n t

b u t I u n d e r s ta nd th a t to th e ju d g me n t th e s ta te me n t in th e ju d g me n t to
me a n th a t Mr Mo n ta n a ’s Aq u e s t in th e mis c o n d u c t, th e c o r r u p t c o n d uc t o f
Mr, c o r r u p t c on d u c t o f Mr Mth imk h u lu .
20

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s – y e s , ja .

We h a v e ta b le d a n u mb e r o f th in g s th a t h a v e h a p p e n ed

th e r e a r e a ls o s o me s tr a ng e th in g s th a t I a m ju s t th r o w in g th is in th a t h a s
n o th in g to d o w ith th e ju d g me n t th a t Mr Mo n ta n a d id .
Be fo r e my Bo a r d w a s a p p o in te d a t PR ASA it h a d h a p p e n e d th a t
Mr Mo n ta n a ’s c o n tr a c t h a d e x p ir e d a n d h ad b e e n r e n e we d w e ll w h ic h is

Page 36 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
o n e o f th in g s h e s a id to me w h e n w e h a d o n e o n o n e th a t lo o k I w a n te d to
le a v e a n d th e y p er s ua d e d me n o t to le a v e a n d I a g r e e d to th e e x te n s io n
o f th is c o n tr a c t. Th a t is w h e n h e w a s tr y ing to c o n v in c e me th a t I s h o u ld
a c c ep t th a t w h e n h is c o n tr a c t e n ds h e w o u ld n o t s ta y.
Bu t r e la tin g to th is q u e s tio n w h a t I w a n t to r a is e C h a ir pe r so n ,
in th e c o u r s e o f o u r inv e s tig a tio ns a n d it is a d o c u me n t th a t I w ill s u b mit
to th e C o u r t, w e e s ta b lis h e d th a t s imila r t o th e c o n d u c t o f Mth imk h u lu ,
Mr Mo n ta n a w h e n he w a n te d a r is e an d e x te n s io n , a r is e in s a lar y an d a n
e x te n s io n o f h is c on tr a c t s u b mitte d a fa k e o ffe r o f e mp lo y me n t.
10

A le tte r th a t w a s g iv en b y a c o mp an y c a lle d G y p s u m Fe r tiliz e rs .
O u r in v es tig a tio n s e s ta b lish e d th a t th a t c o mp a n y h a d ...[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MO LEFE:

N e v e r ma d e a n o ffe r to h i m.

H a d – h a d n o t w e ll th e o ffe r th e y w e r e ma k in g is a k in d o f

o ffe r o f a b u s in e s s th a t d o e s n o t e x is t a s a s o lid b u s in e ss . I t is a – a
w h a t w e , w o u ld c a ll a ne w ly r e g is te r e d c omp a n y.

It d id n o t e v e n ha v e

o ffic e s . Th e r e g is te r e d a d dr e ss w as a h o us e in Be d fo r d v iew a n d I th in k
th e e v id e nc e b e fo re Th e H igh C o ur t w o u ld d e mo n s tr a te th a t. So , w h a t I
a m s a y in g th a t th e d is h o n e s ty th a t is b e in g s p o k en o f is n o t o n ly a b o u t
Mth imk h u lu ,
20

you

a ls o

had

th e s e

in s ta n c es

where

th e

C h ie f

of

Ad min is tr a tiv e Fu n c tio n s o f th e b u s in es s w as d o in g s imila r th in g s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Fin a lly, Mr Mo le fe a t p a r a gr a p h 6 6 y o u s e t o u t w h a t

th e SC A s a id a b o u t Mr Mo n ta n a , y o u r e a d th a t in to th e r e c o r d p le a s e .
MR MO LEFE:

C h a ir p e rs o n th e p ar a gr a p h o f th e SC A ju d g me n t r e a ds in

th is ma n n e r a s fo llo w s :

Page 37 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
“Th e SC A h e c o n tr o lle d PR ASA a n d h is s ta ff, w a s
o b s tr uc tiv e a n d a tte mp te d to c ov e r up h is r o le in
v a r io us c o rr u p t tr a n s ac tio n s in c lud in g th e a w a r d o f
th e te n d e r o f Sw ifa mb o . ”
O f c o u r s e th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r h a d e x p e r ie n c e d a s imila r o b s tr uc tio n in
h e r in ve s tig a tio n w e r e fe r re d to it e a r lie r o n in my e v id e n ce a n d it is
d e ta ile d a ls o in th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R e p or t.”
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

I t w o u ld p e r h a p s b e an id e a l o p p o r tu n ity n o w to lo o k

a t th e Pu b lic – w ha t y o u s a y th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R e p or t is a nd y ou d e a l
10

w ith th a t [ in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll b e fo r e y o u d o th a t Mr. So n i, w e ll ma y b e a llie d to

th e q u e s tio n I p u t to Mr Mo le fe a b o u t h is u n d e rs ta n d in g o f th e Su p r e me
C o u r t o f Ap p e a l’s ju d g men t in r e la tio n to Mr Mo n ta n a ’s c o n du c t in r e la tio n
w ith s p e c ia l r e fe r e nc e to Mr Mth imk h u lu ’s c o n d uc t.

I s e e th a t th e

q u o ta tio n fr o m th e ju d g me n t in p a r a g r a p h 6 6 o f Mr Mo le fe ’s a ffid a v it d o e s
s e e m to s u g g e s t a n d I w a n t to p u t th e q u e s t io n to y o u b e c a u s e y o u w ou ld
h a v e a p p lie d y o ur min d ma y b e b e tte r th a n I h a v e in p r e p a r a tio n fo r th is .
W h e th e r th a t is y o u r u nd e rs ta n d in g , it s e e ms w h e th e r th e Su p r e me C ou r t
o f Ap p e a l is q u o te d to h a v e s a id :
20

“Mr Mo n ta n a ’s c o n tr o lle d PR ASA a n d i ts s t a ff.

Wa s

o b s tr uc tiv e a n d a r e a tte mp te d to c o v e r u p h is r o le in
v a r io us c o rr u p t tr a n s ac tio n s in c lud in g th e a w a r d o f
th e te n d e r to Sw ifa mb o . ”
N o w th a t s e e ms to s u g g e s t th a t h e h a d a r o le in v a r io u s c o rr u p t
tr a n s ac tio n s , b u t h e s o u g h t to c o v er th a t. Is th a t y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g o f

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
w h a t h e h a s d o n e?
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

It is a b s o lu te ly. So Mr C h a ir p e rs o n , if I c o u ld g o

b a c k to th e q u es tio n a n d ma yb e I s h o u ld h av e s e en th a t th e y a r e r e la te d ,
th a t a l th o u g h it d id n o t e x p r e s s ly s a y s o w h e n it r e fe r r e d to Mr Mo n ta n a
h a d a r o le in Mr Mth imk h u lu ’s c o n tr a c t, th e p a s sa g e th a t h a s b e e n r e a d a t
p a r a gr a p h 3 4 ma k es th a t q u ite c le a r.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , o k a y.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N:
10

Th a t is h o w I u n d e r s ta n d it.

Ye s , o k a y. Th a n k y o u . Yo u a r e r e a d y to p r o c e ed to th e

Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R ep o r t?
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

We p r o c e e d w ith t h e Pu b lic , b e c a u s e it le a d s

d ir e c tly to it.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , n o th a t is fin e . Th a t is fin e .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w, Mr Mo le fe y e ste r d a y w e w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t

... [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

I a m s o r r y, is my u n d e rs ta n d in g c or r ec t th a t n o b o d y

h a s e v er c h a lle ng e d th a t r e p o r t in C o u r t?
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :
20

I w a s g o in g to c o me to th a t Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .

Ja. Ja.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Mr Mo n ta n a in 2 0 1 5 file d a n a p p lic a tio n to r e v iew

th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R e p o r t b u t it is ma t t e r I w a n t to a d d r e ss th r o u g h
Mr Mo le fe .. .[in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s . O k a y.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Be c a u s e th a t is o f utmo s t s ig n ific a n c e an d w h a t I

w ill th r o u g h Mr Mo le fe p o in t o u t is in a s e n se ... [in te r v e n e s ].

Page 39 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th e c h a lle n g e w a s n o t p ur s u e d .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

We ll it – i t is th e r e b u t f iv e y e a r s la te r w e h a v e th e

Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R e p or t a n d w e kn o w wh at th e C o n s titu tio n a l C o u r t h a s
s a id a b o u t th e s ta tu s o f h e r R e p o r ts a n d y o u file a R e v ie w a p p lic a tio n
w h ic h PR AJ A s ay s y o u mus t file w ith in 1 8 0 d a y s a n d fiv e y e a rs la te r y o u
d o n o t b r in g it to fr u itio n .

Bu t th is th e p o in t I w a n t to ma k e th r o u g h

e v id e nc e th r o u g h Mr Mo n ta n a .
C H A IR PER SO N :

N o th a t is fin e b u t a l s o w h a t s h o u ld b e d o n e is

s o me b o dy s h ou ld in s p ec t th e C o u r t file a n d s e e w h a t s te p s h av e b e en
10

ta k e n b y w h o m s inc e th e la u nc h in g o f th e ap p lic a tio n s . O r wh e th e r it w a s
s imp ly la u n c he d a n d n o fu r th e r s te p s w e r e ta k e n o r w h e th e r s o me fu r th e r
s te p s w er e ta k e n b u t th e r e h as b e e n a pr o b le m o f g e ttin g a d a te w h ic h o n
my k n o w le d ge o f th e G a u te n g D iv is io n w o u ld b e u n lik e ly th a t s o me b o d y
w h o ma y h a ve b e e n r e a dy to h av e th e ir d ate h a v e d on e ev e ry th in g th e y
a r e s up p os e d to d o th a t th e y wo u ld n o t h av e b e e n g iv e n a d a te fo r fiv e
y e a rs o r s o . Bu t s o me b o d y n e e ds to g o a n d c h e c k .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :

In d e e d .

An d ma y b e it w ill b e u s e fu l to k n o w w h a t th e s ta te o f

a ffa ir s is , w h e th e r th e y a r e a n y fu r th e r s te p s th a t Mr Mo n ta n a h a s ta k e n
20

to tr y a n d h a v e th a t R e v ie w a p p lic a tio n a d jud ic a te d .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Mr C h a ir p e r s on , ma y I ju s t p o in t o u t, a t th e e n d o f

th is w h e n we ma k e su b miss io n s to yo u at w h a te v e r s ta ge , o n e o f th e
p o in ts I w ill b e ta k in g is th a t th e H ig h C o u r t h a s s a id th a t a R e v ie w is
p a r e n te d if it is n o t p u rs u e d , w e ll fir s tly, if it is n o t in s titu te d w ith in
r e a s on a b le time a n d th e r e a r e a t le a s t tw o c a s e s wh ic h w e w ill r e fe r to

Page 40 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
w h ic h sa ys if y o u h a v e n o t p r o s ec u te d y ou r R e v iew.
So , y o u ma y h a v e in s titu te d it b u t y o u le ft it ly in g in C o u r t th e
R e v iew is lik e a n a p p e a l.
Yo u r r ig h t to R e v ie w h a s b e e n p a r e n te d .

Bu t th a t d o e s n o t

d e tr a c t fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a id .
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , b e c a u s e it w o u ld just b e imp o r ta n t to k n o w if th e r e

a r e a n y s te ps if th e r e a r e a n y le g itima te c h a lle n g es in p u r s u in g it.
Be c a u s e if th e r e a r e n o le g itima te c h a lle n ge s in p u r s ing it a n d h a v in g it
s e t d o w n th e n o n e h a s g o t to lo o k a t w h a t o n e ma k e s o f th a t.
10

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Ye s , y e s , a n d – a nd as r e g ar d s th e s ta tu s o f th a t Mr

C h a ir p er so n , ma y I r e fe r to tw o p a s s a g es fr o m th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s
R e p o r t, w h ich a r e n o t in Mr Mo le fe ’s a ffid a v it b u t w h ic h a r e re le v an t to
th e is s u es y ou h av e r a is e d Mr C h a ir pe rs o n. Mr Mo le fe , Mr C h a ir p e rs o n
p e r h a ps fo r o r ie n ta tio n th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R e p o r t is in b u n d le C I th in k
in y o u r s e t o f file s . I h a v e in d ic a te d to – to ... [in te r v e n e s ].
MR MO LEFE:

W h a t is th e p a g e ?

C H A IR PER SO N:

We w ill w a it fo r y o u to te ll. To g iv e th e p a g e s o be fo r e

y o u g iv e it to me .
ADV
20

VA S

SO N I

SC :

Th e

page

n u mb e r

of

th e

report

Mr C h a ir p er s on , is p a g e 2 0 .
C H A IR PER SO N :

I have – I have got page 20.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :

O k a y.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

O h , s o r r y Mr C h a ir pe rs o n , it is p a g e 2 2 .

H a v e y o u g o t it Mr Mo n ta n a I me a n Mr Mo le fe ?

I h a v e g o t i t, y e s .

Page 41 of 146

its e lf,

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Ma y I a s k y o u to ok a t p a r a g r ap h xx ii So , th a t is

ju s t b e fo r e th e fir s t b ig n u mb e r o n p a g e 2 2 .
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s .

Th e o n e - Is it th e o n e a fte r s a y ing c a re fu l?

I

h a v e g o t a c a r e fu l o n th e p a g e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
p a r a gr a p h 2 2 .

Ye s , s o r r y it is p a r a gr a p h 21 .

So it is X X( 1 ) .

So r r y, n o t

Wo u ld y o u p le a s e r e ad th a t in to r e c o r d

Mr Mo le fe ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e p a r a g r a p h r ea d s as fo llo w – a s fo llo w s C h a ir p e rs o n :

“W h a t is e n c o u ra g in g is th a t b o th Mr Mon ta n a a n d
10

th e Bo a r d h a v e w e lc o me d to th e p r o v is ion a l r e p o r t
w h ic h d id n o t d iffe r v a s tly fr o m th is fin a l r e p o r t a n d
c o mmitte d th e ms e lv e s to imp le me n tin g th e r e me d ia l
a c tio n s on c e th e r e p or t is ma d e fin a l. Fo r th is I a m
g r a te fu l a n d a s s uc h c on d u c t is in line w ith th e
C o n s titu tio n a l

id e a l

r e g ar d in g

th e

r ela tio n s h ip

b e tw e e n th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r a n d O rg a ns o f S ta te .
As e n v is ag e d in s ec tio n 1 8 1 o f th e C on s titu tio n .
Se c tio n 1 8 1 o f th e c o ns titu tio n . Se c tio n 1 8 1 e n jo in s
O r g a ns o f Sta te to a s s is t a n d to p r o tec t th e Pu b lic
20

Pr o te c to r

and

o th e r

in s titu tio n s

s u p p o r tin g

c o n s titu tio n a l d e moc r ac y to e ns u r e th e e ffe c tiv e n es s
a mo n g o th e r th in g s .”
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

My I th e n a ls o a sk y o u to tu r n to p a ge 6 4 a nd

p a r a gr a p h 3 .6 ?
C H A IR PER SO N :

Is th a t p a g e 6 4 a t th e b o tt o m?

Page 42 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

At th e b o tto m . So r r y, y e s Mr C h a ir pe r so n . If y o u

c o u ld r e ad th a t – if y o u r e a d th a t p a r a g r a ph in to th e r e c o r d Mr Mo le fe ?
C H A IR PER SO N :

W h ic h p a r a gr a p h is it?

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :

Pa r a g r a p h 3 .6

O n min e th a t s h o u ld b e a t p a g e 6 5 a n d n o t 6 4 .

I

th o u g h t y o u s a id 6 4 .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:
10

Mr Mo le fe is i t is 6 4 o r 6 5 w ith y o u p a r a g ra p h 3 .6 ?

Is it p a r a g r a p h 3 .5 ?

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

I t is 6 4 o n my n o te s . So r r y Mr C h a ir p e rs o n .

3 .6 .

Th e n 3 .6 is o n p a g e 6 5 o n m y – in my file .

C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s .

As y o u r e fe r h im to p a g e s y o u w ill n ee d to

r e me mb e r th a t y o u a r e o n e – yo u a r e o n e pa g e b e h in d .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N:

I w ill n e e d to c o n fir m t h a t. Ye s .

Yo u a r e o n e p a g e b e h in d .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

So , w o u ld y o u r ea d p ar a g r ap h 3 .6 o n p a g e 65 o f th e

Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R ep o r t in to th e r e c o r d Mr Mo le fe ?
MR MO LEFE:

R e a d s in to th e r e c o r d .

“Mr Mo ta n a ’s r e s p o n s e to th e p r o v is io n a l fin d in g s
20

w a s h ow ev e r d ee p ly en c o ur a g ing . H e s a id in p a r d o n
w e q u o te : We c o n fir m th a t PR ASA w e lco me s th e
Pr o v is io na l

Report

and

th e

r e me d ia l

a c tio n s

r e c o mme nd e d b y th e Pu b lic pr o te c tor. PR ASA v ie w s
th e r e me d ia l a c tio n s c o n ce r n ed a s a n e sse n tia l to o l
to a s s is t in imp r ov in g its in te r n a l a d min is tra tiv e a n d

Page 43 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
fin a n c ia l c o n tr o ls . PR ASA b e lie v e s th a t th e r e me d ia l
a c tio n s w ill in fu tu r e s tre n g th e n its go v e r na n ce
fr a me w o rk

o p e r a tio n s

and

in te r n a l

c on tr o ls

in

e n s u r in g th a t PR ASA is s a fe g u a r d e d ag a in s t ir r e g u la r
o r u n la w fu l c o n du c t w ith in its o r g a n isa tio n .”
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Mr Mo fe le I ju s t p la c e d th a t o n r e c o r d a n d th e n

a s k ed y o u to c o mme n t o n th e fo llo w in g.

Mr Mo ta n a h a s file d a n

Ap p lic a tio n to R e v ie w th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R e p o r t.
C H A IR PER SO N :
10

O f c o u r s e , a lo t o f p e o p le s a y a n a ly tic a l file s a R e v ie w

Ap p lic a tio n to R e v ie w is th e C o u r t th a t r e v ie w s to h a v e th e r e p o r t
R e v iew e d a n d s e t a s id e b y th e C o u r t.

N o , b u t th a t is ju s t a te c h n ic a l

th in g .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :

N o , n o b u t a n i mp o r ta n t o n e .

Ye s , y e s .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

I a m ju s t p la c in g o n r e c or d th a t to th e e x te n t th a t

th a t R e v ie w h a s a n y s u bs ta n c e th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s R e po r t w ill h a v e to
b e c o ns id e r ed in th e lig h t o f th e fa c t th a t th e r e is th a t r e v ie w, y o u
u n d e rs ta n d ?
MR MO LEFE:
20

I d o u n d e r s ta n d C h a irp e rs on , b u t in th e lig h t o f w h a t w e

h a v e re a d in th e Pu b lic Pr o tec to r s R e p or t a r e sc r ib ed to th e r e s po n s e o f
Mr Mo ta n a a n d th e Bo a r d o f C o n tr o l. Th e o ld Bo a r d o f C o n tr o l b e c a u s e it
w a s n o t my Bo a r d th a t r e s p o n d e d .

I th in k Mr Mo ta n a h a s g o t a v e r y

d iffic u lt ta s k b e c a us e h e fir s t h a ve to g e t wh a t h e r es p o n de d to th e Pu b lic
Pr o te c to r o n o u t o f th e w a y to ju s tify a n d r e v ie w in g it b e c a u s e h e h a s
a c c ep te d it. N o w it is d iffic u lt , I th in k h e h a s g o t a d iffic u lty b u t ma y b e

Page 44 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
w e ll la w ye r s k n ow h o w to g o a r o un d th e s e th in g s b u t a s a lay p e rs o n I
th in k h e h a s a v e ry s er io u s d iffic u lty.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

So le t u s s ta r t w ith th e fin d in g s th a t y o u h ig h lig h t in

y o u r a ffid a v it a n d le t us s ta r t w ith w h at y o u s ay a t p a ra g r ap h 6 8
[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N :

We a r e b a c k in th e b u n d le th a t h a s Mr Mo le fe ’s

a ffid a v it n o w ?
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
10

C H A IR PER SO N :

O h , s o r r y Mr C h a ir pe rs o n it is SS( 6 ) .

J a I h a v e g o t it in fr o n t o f me .

O k a y w e h av e g o n e

b e y o nd . Ye s , o k a y a lr ig h t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
C H A IR PER SO N :

So r r y, Mr C h a ir.

I th in k y o u mig h t n e e d to r e p e a t y o ur q u e s tio n .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Ye s .

In p a r a g r a p h 6 8 y o u r e fe r r e d to o r y o u

h ig h lig h t o n e o f th e fin d in g s ma d e in r e la ti o n to th e te n d e r fo r tw o tr a in
s ta tio n s v a lu e d a t 1 .9 5 b illio n r a n d .
MR MO LEFE:

I – I d o s o C h a ir p e rs o n p e rha p s to p r o v id e a little c o n te x t.

Th e c o n te x t is th a t a t a c e r ta in p o in t a n d b e fo r e 2 0 1 0 So u th - Afr ic a w as
a w a r de d th e s ta tu s o f h o s tin g th e [in te r v e n es ].
20

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MO LEFE:

So c c e r Wo r ld C u p .

Fir s tly, th e r e w a s th e o n e for Afr ic a We a lth a n d th e n la te r

th e So c c er Wo r ld C u p th a t wa s c o min g in 2 0 1 0 , a n d PR ASA b e in g a n
o r g a n is a tio n r es p o ns ib le fo r tr a n sp o r tin g ma n y o r d ina r y p e o p le b ec a me
p a r t o f th a t p r o c e ss b y it h a d to imp r o v e th e s ta tio n s a n d d o ma in te n a n c e
a n d a llo w fo r a c c e s s to th o s e s ta tio n s b y t h o s e w h o w o u ld b e w a n tin g to

Page 45 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
a tte n d th e Wo r ld C u p .
So , th e r e fo r e th is c o n tr a c t w a s th e n is s ued a s I u n d e r s ta n d it
a n d th e – th e – th e c o n tr ac t e n ta ils d o ing wo r k . Yo u k n ow w e r e fe r to tw o
tr a in s ta tio n s a n d w a s la te r e x te nd e d to s ev e n s ta tio n s . Bu t th is is a ls o
b e c a us e it w o u ld s ee m lik e ma n a g e me n t a nd p e r h a ps Mr Mo n ta n a h a d th e
h e a d - Mr Mo n ta na h ims e lf th a t th e y d id no t th in k th a t w h e n y o u ha v e
is s u e d a c o n tra c t, y o u c a n n o t in th e c a u s e o f e x e c u tio n o f th a t c o n tr a c t,
w illy n illy c h an g e th e s co p e to p u t mo r e wo r k - s c op e o f w o rk a n d mo r e
c o s t to th e c o n tr a c t. An d th is w h a t th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r fo u n d .
10

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

W h o w a s- d o y o u k no w w h o th e c o n tra c to r w a s in

th is ma tte r ?
MR MO LEFE: Th e c o n tr a c tor in th is ma tte r w a s Siy an g e n a w h ich w e- th e
c o mp a ny w e r e fe rr e d to e a r lie r o n in my e v id e n c e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Mr Ch a ir p er s on ma y I fo r y ou r b en e fit e s p e c ia lly th a t
a p p e a rs a t 3 5 9 o f th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s r e p or t a t p a g e 3 5 9 .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : W ith a ll th o s e d e ta ils se t o u t in p a r a g r a p h 6 8 .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th e n Mr Mo le fe ma y I a s k y o u to se t o u t w h a t y o u
20

s a y in p a r a gr a p h 6 9 o f y o u r a ffid a v it w h ic h is SS6 in r e la tio n to th e w a y
Mr Mo n ta n a r a n PR ASA o r p r o v id e h e r w ith in fo r ma tio n .
MR MO LEFE:

Th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r f o u n d th a t Mr Mo n ta n a h a d

a p p r o ac h e d h e r or th e in s titu tio n to s a y th a t h e is fin d in g it d iffic u lt to g e t
in fo r ma tio n fr o m PR ASA .

W i th th is b e in g a n d ma y - I th in k w e , th e y

a p p r o ac h he r e is n o t c or r ec t.

L e t me g o to th e a c tu a l th in g ...

Page 46 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u c a n r e a d ... ( in te r v e n es )
MR MO LEFE: Be c a u s e I th in k th e p r e fa c in g is c o n fu s in g .
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u c a n r e a d th e .. . ( in te r v e n es )
MR MO LEFE: Th e p r e fa c in g is c o n fu s in g .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s a ys it w a s d iffic u lt to g e t in fo r ma tio n
fr o m PR AS A. W ith th is b e in g th e ma in c a u s e r fa c to r fo r th e d e la y in th e
fin a lis a tio n o f th e in v e s tig a tio n s a n d th e re p o r t w h er e th e in v es tig a tio n s
10

th a t h a d s ta r te d in 2 0 1 2 .

Th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s a y s p r o mis e s fo r

d o c u me n ts w er e ma d e b u t th e y w e r e n o t k e p t.

R e q u e s t fo r a s s is ta nc e

fr o m th e b o a r d a ls o y ie ld ed n o th in g a n d I mu s t s ta te h e r e th a t it w a s th e
o ld b o a r d , n o t th e b o a r d th a t I w a s c h a ir ma n o f.

So s o u r c e d o c u men ts

c o u ld n o t b e ma d e a v a ila b le .
N o w ju s t a n a dd lip p in g o f s o me k in d , th e c o n tr a c t o f Siy a n g e na
w a s c o n tin u in g a t th a t time . It c o u ld n o t b e tr u e th a t PR ASA d id n o t k n o w
w h e r e to fin d th e s o u r c e d oc u me n t o f a c o n tr a c t th a t is c o n tin u in g a n d fo r
w h ic h th e y w e r e c o n tin u ing to p a y. So , b u t th a t is w h a t th e y s a id . Bu t
th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r a ls o fin d s th a t Mr Mo n ta n a b o as te d th a t y o u s e e th ey
20

w e n t a n d c o mp la in e d a bo u t me , n o w th e y c a n n o t p r o du c e d oc u me n ts by
w a y o f e v id e n ce . An d r e q u e s t th e Pu b lic p r o te c to r to fin d in h is fa v o u r
b e c a us e h e b e lie v e s th a t th o s e a c c u s in g h im d o

n o t h a v e - th e

a c c us a tio n s w e r e b as e les s .
N o w th e c o mp a ny w ith h o ld s d oc u me n t w h ic h w o u ld d is p r ov e w h a t
th e c o mp la in a n t s a ys e v e n d id th e y w e r e wr o n g . Bu t th e c o mp a n y d o e s

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
n o t r e le a se th e m a n d Mr Mo n ta n a ac co r d ing to th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r b o a s t,
h e s a ys , lo o k I a m in n o c e n t. Fin d in my fa v o u r.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So r r y C h a ir, c a n I ju s t d e a l w ith th a t is s u e w ith a fe w
q u e s tio n s? As fa r a s PR ASA s ta tu s in o u r c o n s titu tio n d isp e n sa tio n g o ,
w h a t w o u ld PR ASA b e ? Wo u ld it b e a p r iv a te b o d y, a n o r g a n o f s ta te ?
MR MO LEFE: Ea r lie r o n in my a ffid a v it C h a ir p e rs o n I s ta te th a t PR A SA is
a n o r g a n o f s ta te to th a t e x te n d PR ASA is o b lig e d to c o mp ly w ith le g a lth e le g a l a n d c o n s titu tio n a l fr a me w o rk o f So u th Afr ic a .

In th e e a r lie r

d is c us s ion in th e c o ur s e o f th is e v id e nc e whe r e th e Pu b lic Pr o te c tor w h en
10

s h e e xp r es s es h e r a pp r ec ia tio n fo r Mr Mo n ta n a a n d th e b o a rd o f th a t time
s a y in g th a t th e y w e lc o me th e re p o r t a nd th e r e me d ia l ac tio n s r e q u ir e d
a n d th a t in th e ir v ie w it w o u ld a ss is t to imp r o v e th e g ov e rn a n ce in th e
o r g a n is a tio n c le a r ly me a n s th a t th e y u n d e r s to o d th a t th e y n e e d e d to
s u p p or t th e w o rk o f th e Pu b lic Pr o te c tor. Th e y w er e ac tu a lly o b lig ed to
do so.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Mr Mo le fe b e fo r e w e go o n to th e n e x t ma tte r r a is e d
in y o u r a ffid a v it, ma y I a s k y o u to p le a s e a g a in tu r n to p a g e 2 0 o f th e
Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s r e po r t n o w. If i t ma y w e ll b e 2 1 in y o u r c o py.
C H A IR PER SO N: J u s t me n tio n a g a in fo r th e r e c o r d th e b u n d le n u mb e r.

20

A D V VA S SO N I SC : It is b u n d le C Mr C h a irp e r s on .
C H A IR PER SO N: It is b u n d le C .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Bu t I d o n o t k n o w w h e the r th a t y o u r o w n o n e is a ls o

ma r k e d b un d le C . It s h o u ld b e b u t y o u s e em to n o t to b e s u r e e a r lie r o n .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

I t is n o t- min e is n o t- o u r s h a s b e e n ma r k e d

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d iffe r e n tly Mr C h a ir p e rs o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: O h , b u t th e y n e e d to b e ma r k e d in th e s a me wa y so th a t
w e a r e a ll o n th e s a me p a g e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

So , w h e n y o u n e e d to te ll me a n d th e w itn e s s w h a t

b u n d le y o u ar e s u re th a t it w o u ld b e th e c o r r e c t b u n d le th a t w e h a v e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t i t is Bu n d le C o n min e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
10

C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. An d y o u s a id p a g e 2 0 ?
A D V VA S SO N I SC : It is e ith e r p a g e 2 0 o r 2 1 .
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u a r e o n e p a g e b e h in d is it?
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

I a m o n e pa g e be h ind .

So , it is 2 0 o n min e a n d

p r o b a b ly 2 1 w ith y o u .
C H A IR PER SO N: So , it w ill b e 2 1 w ith me . J a . O k ay it s h o u ld be 2 1 w ith
y o u r b u nd le Mr Mo le fe
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . An d i t is p a r a g r ap h XVII I.
C H A IR PER SO N: N o , th a t is n o t o n p a g e 2 1 . Th a t is o n p a g e 2 0 .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : O h s o r r y.
20

C H A IR PER SO N: O n min e . Mr Mo le fe , is it o n p a g e 2 1 ... ( in te r v e n e s )
MR MO LEFE: Min e is a ls o o n p a g e 2 0 , y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So th is is w h e r e I w a s c o in c ide .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . N o , b u t I th in k it is i mp o r ta n t th a t a ll y o u r b u n d le s
a ll y o u r d o c u me n ts s h ou ld b e ma r k e d p ag in a te d e x a c tly th e s a me ...

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( in te r v en e s)
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ex a c tly th e s a me .
C H A IR PER SO N: As o u r s a n d th e y s h o u ld b e ma r k e d e x a c tly th e s a me s o
th a t w e d o n o t h a v e th is p r o b le m.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a lr ig h t. Pa g e 2 0 XVI II. Ye s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

C a n y o u p le a s e - so r e me mb e r y ou w e r e ta lk ing

a b o u t Mr Mo n ta n a b o a s tin g th a t th e y c o u ld n o t p r o d u c e- th e c o mp la in a n ts
c o u ld n o t p r o d uc e d oc u me n ts . I w o u ld ju s t lik e y o u to r e a d p a ra g r a ph 1 8
10

w h e r e th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r co mme n ts o n th is a p p r o ac h .
MR MO LEFE: Th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s ta te s ;
I mu s t r e c o r d th a t th e in ve s tig a tio n te a m a n d I h a d imme n s e
d iffic u lty p ie c in g to g e th e r th e tr u th a s in fo r ma tio n h a d to b e
c la w e d o u t o f PR ASA ma n a g e me n t.

Wh e n in fo r ma tio n wa s

e v e n tu a lly pr o v ide d it c a me in d r ip s an d d r a bs a n d w as
in c o mp le te .

D e s p ite th e fa c t th a t th e me a n s us e d to o b ta in

in fo r ma tio n a n d d oc u me n ts fr o m PR ASA in c lu d e d a s u bp o e na
is s u e d in te r ms o f Se c tio n 7 ( 4 ) o f th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r Ac t,
ma n y o f th e d o c u me n ts a n d in fo r ma tio n r e q u e s te d a r e s till
20

o u ts ta n d in g .

U n til a b ou t 3 w e ek s b e fo re is s u ing th e r ep o r t

PR ASA w a s s till b e in g a sk e d fo r o u ts ta nd in g d o c u me n ts a nd
in fo r ma tio n o n th e c o n tr a c ts a n d so me s ta ff a p p o in tme n ts .
I mu s t s a y a t th is p o in t C h a ir p e r s o n th a t a t th e time w h e n th e
Pu b lic Pr o te c to r r e p o r t w a s b e in g fin a lis ed I h a d a ls o - my b o a r d o f c o n tr o l
h a d a ls o b e e n a p pr o ac h e d to a s s is t in p r o v id in g in fo r ma tio n to th e Pu b lic

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Pr o te c to r a n d w e a c tu a lly h a d a me e tin g, tw o me e tin g s o r s o in th e
o ffic e s o f th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r.

I th in k th e fir s t o n e w a s o n th e 2 6 t h o f

J u n e ... ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: 2 0 1 5 .
MR MO LEFE: 2 0 1 5 . 2 6 J u n e 2 0 1 5 . An d o f c o u rs e , Mr Mo n ta n a w as v e ry
u n h a p py th a t .. . ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u me t w ith th e m.
MR MO LEFE:

I w e n t to me e t w ith th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r w ith o th e r

d ir e c to rs . We d id r eq u es t a n d th e min u te s o f o u r me e tin g s w o u ld re c or d
10

th a t w e a s ke d Mr Mo n ta na to c o mp ly w ith th e r e q u e s t o f th e Pu b lic
Pr o te c to r.
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: A t th a t time , w e h a d a ls o fo u n d th a t th e s u b p o e n a s iss u e d
c a me th r o u g h th e o ffic e o f th e G r o u p C h ie f Ex e c u tiv e O ffic e r Mr Mo n ta n a .
Bu t to th e e x te n d th a t th e y e ffe c te d me mb e r s o f h is ma n a g e men t te a m,
th e y w e re n o t g iv en to th e m. So , h e w a n te d to b e th e s o le p er so n w ho is
n o t o n ly th e c u s to d ia n b u t th e c o n tr o lle r o f w h a t g o e s o u t a n d w h a t d o e s
n o t g o o u t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d th e n ma y I a sk y o u to p le as e re a d pa r a gr a p h

20

XIX o n th e s a me p a g e . I t is th e v e r y n e x t p a r a g ra p h .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th e s a me p a g e .

Th e s a me p a g e wh e r e yo u w e re

r e a d in g , th e n e x t p a r a gr a p h , p a g e 2 1 .
MR MO LEFE:

Bu t w h a t a r e w e r e a d in g th e r e ? I d o n o t h a v e a ny th in g

d iffe r e n t fr o m w h a t I r e a d e a r lie r. Ma y b e p ar a g r ap h .
C H A IR PER SO N: I th in k Mr So n i .. . ( in te r v e n e s )

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MR MO LEFE: Bu t w h a t I h a v e h e r e is p a rag r a p h 1 8 o n p ag e 2 0 ma y b e I
mu s t g o ... ( in te r v e n e s)
A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o , y o u h a v e r e a d p a ra g r a p h 1 8 . C a n y o u n o w r e a d
p a r a gr a p h 1 9 p le as e .
MR MO LEFE: O n w h ic h p a g e ?
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e n e x t p a g e . We ll o n m e - y o u rs a n d min e s e e m to b e
th e s a me . Pa r a g r a p h 1 9 w o u ld b e o n p a ge 2 1 ... ( in te r v e n es )
MR MO LEFE: Min e is o n .. . ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: 1 9 is XIX in te r ms o f R o ma n fig u r e s .
10

A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: It s ta r ts w ith , I mu s t a ls o i n d ic a te , is th a t r ig h t Mr So n i?
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th a t is r ig h t.
C H A IR PER SO N: I mu s t a ls o in d ic a te .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: J a , th a t is th e o n e h e w o u ld lik e y o u to r e a d .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : R e a d th a t in to th e r e c or d .
MR MO LEFE: I mu s t a ls o in d ic a te th a t th e a u th e n tic ity o f ma n y o f th e
d o c u me n ts s u b mitte d b y PR ASA ma n a g e me n t a s e v id e n c e
r e la tin g to p r o c u re me n t is d o u b tfu l. Ma n y o f th e

20

p r in c ip a lly

me mo r a n d a

a p p r ov a l o f te n d e r s a n d r e la te d d oc u me n ts

s u b mitte d

ma n a g e me n t w e r e u nd a te d , u n s ig ne d a n d

at

in c o mp le te . Ex a mp le s in th is r e g a r d

in c lu d e d o c u men ts r e la tin g

to th e c o n tr a c tin g o f PS IR A

le a s t

by

fo r

in

PR ASA
one

case

Se c u r ity, AR U P a n d a En lig h te n e d

Se c u r ity Se r v ic es . In s o me o f th e s e c a s es h a d th is be e n a n a u d it o n ly a
d is c la ime r w o u ld b e a le g itima te a u d it o u tc o me .

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N o w C h a ir p e rs o n I d id s a y th a t th e P u b lic Pr o te c to r h a d
e x p r es se d c o n ce r n a b o u t th e a u th e n tic a tio n o f d o c u me n ts th a t th e y c o u ld
n o t a u th e n tic a te th e d o c u me n ts a n d th e y w e r e n o t b e in g a s s is te d b y
PR ASA in a w a y o f a u th e n tic a tin g th o s e d o cu me n ts .
C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll y o u d id s a y a fe w min u te s a g o th a t Mr Mo n ta n a

s o u g h t to c on tr o l th e in co min g c or r es p o nd e n c e a n d wh a t w e n t o u t o f
PR ASA to th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r. An d y o u ma d e th e p o in t th a t to th e e x te n d
th a t s h e n e e d e d to h a v e c o mmu n ic a te d with h is ma n a g e me n t te a m o n
s o me o f th e ma tte r s r a is e d by th e Pu b lic Pro te c to r o r in c o rr e sp o n d en c e10

I th in k y o u r e fe r re d to th e s u b p o en a . It lo o k s lik e h e d id n o t d o s o , th e y
w e r e u n aw a re .
So , I w a n t to a s k th e q u e s tio n , w h e r e th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r n ow
s a ys th e PR ASA ma n a g e me n t w a s s u b mittin g to h e r o ffic e d o c u me n ts
w h o se a u th e n tic ity w a s d o u b tfu l.

An d w h e r e sh e sa ys ma n y o f th e

me mo r a n d a fo r a p p ro v a l o f te n d e r s a n d r e la te d d o c u me n ts s u b mitte d b y
PR ASA ma n a g e me n t w e r e u nd a te d , u n s ig ne d a n d a t le a s t in o n e c as e
in c o mp le te . Wo u ld th a t me a n th a t a lth o u gh it s a y s PR ASA ma n a g e men t
in te r ms o f y o u r e x p e r ien c e o r u n d er s ta n din g a r e y o u a b le to s a y th a t
a c tu a lly r e fe rs to Mr Mo n ta n a b e c a u s e h e w a s c o n tr o llin g c or r es p o nd e nc e
20

th a t c o me s in a nd th a t g o e s ou t. O r a r e you n o t a b le to s ay w h e th er h eth a t w a s th e p o s itio n o r w h e th e r th e r e w e r e o th e r me mb e r s o f th e
ma n a g e me n t te a m w h o ma y h a v e b ee n p a r ty to th is ?
MR MO LEFE: C h a ir p e r s o n I ... ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u d o n o t k n o w.
MR MO LEFE:

R e s ta te , r e ite r a te my s ta te me n t th a t h e w a s c o n tr o llin g

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in fo r ma tio n .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Th a t h e h a d n o t a v a ile d th e s u b p o e n as to th e in d iv id u a ls
me n tio n e d .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE:

Be c a u s e th e in fo r ma tio n fr o m th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r w a s

c h a n ne lle d th r o ug h th e G r ou p C EOs o ffic e .

It w a s p r e tty c lea r to me

w h e n I me t w ith th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r in J un e 2 0 1 5 th a t- w e ll w e b ec a me
a w a r e fo r th e fir s t time th a t th e r e w e r e the s e s ub p o e na s . Bu t w h e n w e
10

w e n t b a c k th e in d iv id ua ls me n tio n e d h a d ne v e r h e ar d a n y th ing a b o u t th e
s u b p oe n a s .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Th e n ma y I ju s t a s k y o u Mr Mo le fe y o u ha v e n ow

r e a d s pe c ific a lly w h a t th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r ha s s a id a bo u t th e a u th e n tic ity
o f d o c u me n ts , th e in c o mp le te n e s s o f d o c ume n ts a n d s o o n .

We r e y o u -

a r e y o u s u r pr is ed th a t th a t is h o w th e PR ASA ma n a g e me n t th r o u g h Mr
Mo n ta n a d e a lt w ith th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s r e q u e s t?
MR MO LEFE:

I a m n o t s u r p r is e d C ha ir pe r s o n .

Th e e a r lie r o n in o u r

e n g a g e me n t a s th e b o ar d o f d ir e c to rs I in d ic a te d th a t in 2 0 1 4 th e
20

N o v e mbe r me e tin g w e w e re a d v ise d th a t th e r e w a s a p r ob ity r e p or t w h ic h
w a s to g iv e a s s ur a nc e to th e b o a r d th a t p r o c u r e me n t w a s d o n e p r o pe r ly.
It h a d n o t b e e n th e r e . An d I s u b s e q u e n tly in d ic a te d th a t th e b o a r d ha d
r e q u es te d th e c o n tr a c ts w h ic h h a d b e en c o n c lu d e d b e fo r e it w a s
a p p o in te d a ga in th is r eq u es t w a s no t h on o u r e d .

So , I w o u ld n o t b e

s u r pr is e d , it w a s a p a tte r n o f b e h a v io u r o f th e o r g a n is a tio n - o f th e g r o u p

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C EO .
C H A IR PER SO N: O f c o u rs e , a s I u n de rs ta nd th e p o s itio n , h e r e th e Pu b lic
Pr o te c to r is co mp la in in g th a t PR ASA ma n a g e me n t a n d ma y be w e sh o u ld
r e a d th e G r ou p C EO w as n o t c oo p e ra tin g in fu r n is h in g in fo r ma tio n an d
d o c u me n ts to th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r.

Bu t y o u a ls o g a v e e v id e n ce e ith e r

y e s te rd a y o r th e d ay b e fo r e y es te r d ay th a t y o u r b o a rd s o o n a fte r it h a d
b e e n a p p o in te d so r t o r a s ke d Mr Mo n ta n a to p r o v id e it w ith v a r io u s
c o n tr ac ts th a t h a d b e e n c o n c lu de d in r e g a r d to th e mo d e r n is a tio n p r o gr a m
a n d th a t th e s e w e r e n e ve r p r ov id e d . H e n ev e r p r ov id e d th is to y o u . So ,
10

is my u n d e rs ta n d in g c or r ec t?
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d e a r lie r yo u s a id th a t it s e e me d to r e fle c t a

p a tte r n . Is th a t- w o u ld th a t b e c o r r e c t?
MR MO LEFE: Th a t- I s a id s o C h a ir pe r so n .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th e n i f w e c o u ld c a r r y o n w ith p a r a g r a p h 6 9 o f y o u r
a ffid a v it Mr Mo le fe y o u ta lk ab o u t w h a t th e Pu b lic Pr o te c tor fo u n d in
r e la tio n to la b o u r r e la tio n s a t PR ASA. W h a t d id .. . ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o r ry, d id y ou mo v e a w a y Mr So n i fr o m th e pa g e
20

th a t- fr o m o u r p a g e 2 1 ? I d o n o t k n o w w h e re ... ( in te r v e n e s)
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

O h s o r r y, I a m g o in g n o w to th e a ffid a v it a g a in .

So r r y Mr C h a ir p e rs o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: O h w e ll b e fo re y ou g o - yo u d o s o . Mr Mo le fe yo u s ee
th e p a r a g r ap h th a t c o me s imme d ia te ly a fte r th e p a r a g r a p h y o u h av e r e a d
th a t is n o w in th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to rs r e po r t, p a g e 2 1 .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
p a r a gr a p h 1 9 th a t yo u h av e r ea d s ta r tin g with , I mu s t a ls o in d ic a te . C a n
y o u s e e th a t p a r a gr a p h? C a n y o u s ee th a t p a r a gr a p h ?
MR MO LEFE: I d o s e e it C h a ir p e rs o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Th e o n e th a t c o me s a fte r th a t w h ic h is p a r a g r a ph
2 0 , th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s a y s s o me th in g o n w h ic h I th in k y o u s h o u ld
c o mme n t. Sh e s a y s ; Afte r u n s u c c es s fu lly as k in g th e n e w
PR ASA b o a r d a n d its c ha ir ma n to a ss is t. I d e c id e d it w o u ld b e
in th e p u b lic in te r e s t to p r o c ee d w ith th e r e p o r t a n d d iffe r
u n a n sw e r ed q u e s tio ns to s e c o nd r e p or t.
10

N o w th a t ma y o r ma y n o t- th a t u n s u c ce ss fu lly th a t s h e u s e s , ma y
o r ma y n o t g iv e th e r e a d e r th e imp r e s s io n th a t y o u r b o a r d d id a ls o n o t
c o o p er a te in th is r eg a r d . Bu t ma y b e th a t is n o t w h a t s h e me an s . Ar e y o u
a b le to c o mme n t o n th a t s ta te me n t?
MR MO LEFE: C h a ir p e r so n w e ll r e ad in g it if y o u h a d n o t h a d o th e r fa c ts
p r o v ing o th e r w is e ... ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s , it is a c o n c lu s io n th a t o n e c o u ld d r a w b u t . ..

( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t y o u ma y b e a b le to c o mme n t a n d g iv e c o n te x t.
20

MR MO LEFE: Bu t th e c o n te x t is th a t th e b o a r d w as as k e d o n th e 2 6 t h o f
J u ly to a s s is t.

Th e b o a r d c a n o n ly a ss is t th r o u g h its G r o u p C h ie f

Ex e c u tiv e b e ca u s e th e b o a r d d o e s n o t k e e p r e c o r ds .

An d it w a s c le a r

th a t th e p r e v io u s b o ar d a n d th e C h ie f Ex ec u tiv e d id n o t c o o p er a te e v en
d u r in g o u r time th e y d id n o t c o o p e r a te .

Fo r e x a mp le , if y o u - ma y b e I

s h o u ld n o t g o in to th e d e ta ils b u t th a t is w h a t it me a n s . We o ffe r e d to

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c o o p er a te b u t w e c o u ld c o o p er a te o n ly to th e e x te n d th a t w e c a n g e t
in fo r ma tio n .
C H A IR PER SO N: So th e r e fo re , it s e e m fr o m w h a t y o u s ay th a t it w o u ld b e
fa ir to s a y s h e is c o r r ec t in s a y in g a fte r u n s u cc es s fu lly a sk in g th e n e w
PR ASA b o a r d to a s s is t th a t h e r a tte mp ts to g e t th e b o a r d a n d its
c h a ir ma n

to

as s is t,

th a t

th e r e

are

th o s e

th a t

th a t

request

wa s

u n s uc c es s fu l. Th o s e a tte mp ts w e r e u n su cce s s fu l e v en in e ffe c t w h e n s h e
h a d a sk e d th e b oa r d to a ss is t h er. Bu t w h a t y o u a r e sa y in g is , th e r e w as
a r e a s o n fo r th e b o a r d a n d its c h a ir p e r so n n o t b e in g a b le to a s s is t. An d
10

th e r e a s o ns w a s th a t th e b o a r d d id n o t k e e p r e c o r ds . I t is th e G r o u p - it is
th e ma n a g e me n t th a t k e e p s re c or d s a nd th e G r o u p C EO w as n o t a s s is tin g
th e b o a r d . Is th a t r ig h t?
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir pe rs o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Th e - I u n d e rs ta n d th a t p a rag r a p h to me a n th a t e v e n a s I
h a d a s ke d th e n e w b o a r d to a ss is t, th a t e ff o r t y ie ld e d n o r e su lts . Th a t is
h o w I u n d e r s ta n d it a n d th e r e s u lt a r e d i r e c tly lin k e d to th e n e e d fo r
c o o p er a tio n b y th e G r o u p C EO a n d h is ma n a g e me n t te a m.
C H A IR PER SO N: N o , I th in k y o u r - th e me a n in g y o u a tta c h to it is fa ir. It

20

is c o r r ec t. It is ju s t th a t in th e a b s e n c e o f t h e r e p o r t s a y in g a ny th in g e ls e
to th e r e a s o n w hy e v e n th e b o ar d w as n o t a b le to a s s is t. An d a g a in s t th e
b a c kg r o un d o f th e la ck o f c o op e r a tio n de a lt w ith in p r e v io us p ar a g ra p h s
in r e la tio n to th e G r o u p C EO , th e r e a d e r c o u ld g e t th e imp r e s s io n th a t
e v e n Mr Mo le fe ’s b o a r d d id n o t a s s is t he r e .

Bu t y o u a r e g iv in g th e

r e a s on . Yo u s a y a s th e b o a r d w e r e c o mmitte d to c o o p e r a tin g b u t y o u h ad

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to a s k ma n a g e me n t to d o c e r ta in th in g s a n d th e G r o u p C EO d id n o t g iv e p la y h is r o le , th e r o le th a t y o u e x p ec te d h im to p la y.
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir pe rs o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k ay. Ma y b e o n e s h o u ld a s k wh a t k in d o f time p e r io d
a r e w e ta lk in g a b o u t w h e n th is w a s h a p p e n in g ? Wa s it a t a time w h e n th e
g r o u p C EO h a d a lr e a d y - o h h e h a d a lr e a dy g iv e n h is s o - c a lled le tte r o f
r e s ig na tio n .

O r a c tu a lly it w a s d u r in g th e p e r io d w h ic h c a me a fte r th e

b o a r d a sk e d h im to s ta y o n fo r 6 mo n th s .
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t.
10

C H A IR PER SO N: So , h e w a s s o me b o d y w ho w a s o n h is w a y o u t. I th in k
th a t is o n e o f th e p o in ts y o u ma d e .
MR MO LEFE: H e w a s o n h is w a y o u t b u t h e w a s s till in o ff ic e in c h a r g e .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , b u t th a t mig h t- c o u ld th is b e o n e o f th e r e a s o n s

w h y th e b o a r d d e c ide d th a t h is c o n tin u e d p r e s en c e in th e c o mp a n y w as
n o t s e r v in g th e p u rp o se th a t th e b o a r d w a n te d ? O r n o t r e a lly ?
MR MO LEFE: W h ils t w e w o u ld n o t h a v e s p e c ific a lly sa id th a t a b o u t th e
Pu b lic Pr o te c to r.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE:
20

Bu t w e d id s a y th a t in c re as in g th e b o ar d w as fin d in g it

d iffic u lt to g e t in fo r ma tio n fr o m th e G r o u p C EO .

In fa c t, h e w a s e v e n

b e g in n in g to g iv e e x c us e s fo r n o t b e in g a v a ila b le fo r b o a r d c o mmitte e
me e tin g s . So e s s e n tia lly b e h a v in g in a ma n n e r th a t ma d e c o mmitte e s to
s o me e x te n d d ys fu n c tio n a l b e ca u s e th e me mo r a n d a th a t c o mmitte e s
c o n s ide r h av e to b e a p p r o ve d b y th e G r o u p C EO .
So th a t w a s th e p r o b le m th a t w e w e r e b e g in n in g to e x p e r ie nc e .

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Th a t c o u p le d w ith o th e r u n b e co min g b e h a v io u r w h ic h p lay e d its e lf o u t o n
th e p u b lic d o ma in , I d id r e fe r to th e k in d o f s ta te me n ts r e g u la r a tta ck s on
th e b o a r d o f d ir e c to rs . It w a s th e n c le ar th at w e n e e d ed to a sk h im to g o .
So , it is a c o mb in a tio n o f a ll o f th o s e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: Wo u ld I b e r ig h t in s a y in g w h ile th e p u r p o s e fo r w h ic h
th e b o a r d w an te d h im to c o n tin u e fo r 6 mo n th s w as to - o r th e p r ima ry
p u r p os e ma y b e I s h o u ld s a y w a s to a s s is t th e b o a r d to g e t h is
r e p la ce me n t. Th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n o n th e a s s u mp tio n th a t h e c o n tin u e s
to p e r fo r m th e d u tie s o f G r o u p C EO in th e ma n n e r e x p ec te d o f h im b y th e
10

board.
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e rs on e x c ep t fo r th o s e c on d itio n s

w h ic h a re a r tic u la te d in my e v id e nc e y es te rd a y.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: R e la tin g to fu r th e r a p p o in tme n ts o f e mp lo y e e s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: An d a w a r d s o f c o n tr a c ts .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE:

An d - ja .

An d o f c o u r se , h im s e rv in g o n th e b o a rd s o f

s u b s id ia r ies .
20

C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t b a s ic a lly, it mu s t h a ve b e e n a mo n g th e o th er th in g s
o n th e b a s is th a t h e w o u ld c o n tin u e to c o o p e r a te w ith th e b o a r d .
Be c a u s e in o r de r fo r th e e n tity to o p e r a te p r o p e r ly th e r e sh o u ld b e
c o o p er a tio n fr o m th e G r o u p C EO w ith th e b o a r d .
MR MO LEFE: Th a t w a s a t th e h e a r t o f th e d e c is ion o f th e b o a r d to a llo w
h im to s e r v e th e c o mp a ny fo r a n o th e r 6 mo nth s C h a ir p er s on .

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C H A IR PER SO N: Th a n k y o u .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Mr C h a ir p e r s on I p e r h ap s s h o u ld h av e d e a lt w ith th a t
is s u e . Th e p r ob le m is I h a d c o ns u lte d o n th a t is s u e a n d ba s e d on w h a t
Mr Mo le fe s a id in e v id e nc e , it d id n o t s e e m to me to b e r e le v a n t. Bu t y o u
a r e a b s o lu te ly r ig h t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : L o o k in g a t i t o b je c tiv e ly, th a t is a ma t te r th a t s h o u ld
h a v e b e en p u r su e d .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
10

A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d I a p o lo g is e .
C H A IR PER SO N: N o , th a t is fin e . I t ju s t s e e ms to me th a t y o u c a n o n ly
a s k a G r o up C EO to c on tin u e fo r a ny p ro p er p u r po s e on th e b as is th a t h e
w o u ld c o o pe r a te w ith y o u a s th e b o r d . I f h e d o e s n o t c o o p e r a te w ith y o u
th e n it d o e s n o t lo o k lik e th e r e w o u ld b e mu c h p u rp o s e in w a n tin g - th e
b o a r d w an tin g h im to c o n tin u e .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: So th a t is w a y I w a n te d to g e t th e c la r ific a tio n s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th e n Mr Mo le fe i f y o u g o b a c k to y o ur a ffid a v it th a t
SS6 p a r a g r a p h 6 9 r e ga r d in g th e la b o ur p ra c tic e s o r so me o f th e u n fa ir

20

la b o u r p r ac tic e . W h a t d o e s th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s a ys o r s ay ?
MR MO LEFE: Th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r C h a ir p e r s o n n o te s th a t o r c o n c lu d e s
th a t Mr Mo n ta n a s u s p e n d e d e mp loy e e s w ith o u t fo llo w in g p r o c e du r e a n d
th a t th a t c o n d u c t o f h a b itu a lly su s p end in g e mp lo y ee s c o n tr av e n e d
PR ASA’s d is c ip lin a r y c o d e .

An d c o n s titu te d ma la d min is tr a tio n a n d

imp r o p e r co n d uc t o n th e p a r t o f th e G r o u p CEO .

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C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll I s e e th a t th e Pu b li c Pr o te c to r s a id th e r e w a s a

c o n d uc t o n th e p ar t o f- o f th e G r ou p CEO o f h a b itu a lly s us p e nd in g
e mp lo y e es a n d th a t mig h t ta lk to th e i s s u e th a t I r a is e d w ith y o u
y e s te rd a y w h e n I a sk e d w h e th e r y o u r e c a lled w h a t n u mb er s we r e inv o lv ed
in th e s u sp e n s io n a n d d is miss a ls o f e mp loy e e s . Yo u d id sa y ma ny, y ou
c o u ld n o t r e me mb er th e fig u r e .

Yo u s a id ma n y.

Bu t i f th e Pu b lic

Pr o te c to r s a ys - ta lk a b o u t h a b itu a lly s us p e nd in g , it s e e ms to s u g g e s t th a t
th e r e w a s a h a b it o f s u s p e n d in g e mp lo y e es . So , it mig h t b e c o n s is te n t
w ith y o u r r ec o lle c tio n th a t it w a s ma n y.
10

MR MO LEFE: I t is c o r r ec t s ir, C h a irp e rs o n. Bu t it is c o n s is te n t w ith th e
D e p u ty J u dg e Pr e s id e n t C h ie f J u s tic e w ith w h a t I s a id in my e v id e n c e . I
c a n co me th is w ay a little b it a n d s a y, in fa c t s o me o f th e s u sp e ns io n s
h a p p e n ed w h e n I w a s o n th e b o a r d . Th e r e w a s s u s p e ns io n o f th e th e n
C h ie f In fo r ma tio n O ffic e r, Mr C h r is Mb a ta . An d o n e o f th e ma n a g e r s in
th e le g a l fu n c tio n o f PR ASA Mr Fa n i D in gis w ay o a n d th e H e a d o f th a t
le g a l fu n c tio n Ms Ma r th a N g o y e .

Th e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n o th e r s th a t I

w o u ld imme d ia te ly n o t k n ow b u t th o s e w er e th e p r o min e n t o n e s w ho w e r e
s u s pe n d e d a n d th is is a ma tte r w e d e a lt w it h a t th e b o a r d me e tin g h e ld in
Ma y o f 2 0 1 5 wh e r e w e d e man d e d th a t Mr Mo n ta n a r e ve rs e s h is d ec is io n
20

in th e ma n n e r in w h ic h h e h ad d o n e it.

Bu t a ls o r e c o g n is e d th a t a s a

G r o u p C EO h e h a s th e p r er o g a tiv e to d isc ip lin e h is s u b or d in a te .
Bu t w e in s is te d th a t h e n e e d ed to fo llo w p ro c e ss . Be c a us e w h a t
h e d id w ith s o me o f th e s e in d iv id u a ls h e s imp ly lo c k ed - to ld th e s e c u r ity
to lo c k th e m o u t , n o t to a llo w th e m to g e t in to th e p r e mis e s o f th e
c o mp a ny.

An d th e n h a v in g lo ck e d th e m ou t h e th e n s e rv e d th e m w ith

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le tte r s o f s u s p e ns io n w ith o u t fo llo w in g a ny d u e p r o c es s . It is th e n tr u e
th a t o f c o u r s e th e in d iv id u a ls c a me b a ck a nd I th in k h e d id tr y to s u s p e n d
th e m a g a in b u t h e w a s a ma n g o in g o u t a t t h a t time .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Mr Mo le fe , th e e v ide n c e th a t Ms N g oy e a n d Mr

D in g isw a y o w ill le a d is n o t d iffe r e n t fo r m w h a t y o u s a y is th a t in fa c t Mr
Mo n ta n a a t th e t ime y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t h a d d is mis s e d th e m. Th e y h a d
a p p r o ac h e d yo u , y o u h a d a p pr o a ch e d Mr Mo n ta n a .

H e r e v e r s e d h is

d e c is ion to d is mis s th e m b u t h e s u mma r il y s u s pe n d e d th e m a g a in a n d
th a t s u s p e ns io n las te d u n til h e le ft.
10

Is th a t mo r e o r le ss y o ur

r e c o llec tio n ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e fa c ts a r e c o rr e c t b u t I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th o s e

w itn e s se s a r e s a y ing in th e ir a ffid a v its .

I c a n n o t s a y- I h a v e n o t s e e n .

Bu t I a c c e p t th a t y o u h a v in g s e en it, i t c o r r ob o r a te s w ha t I h a v e s a id .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th e n in p a r a g r ap h 7 0 o f y o u r a ffid a v it y o u s ay th e r e
w a s a cu ltu r e - we ll th e D PP fo u n d s o me th in g a b o u t th e p o o r in fo r ma tio n
ma n a g e me n t.

W h a t d o e s s h e s a y a b o u t th a t?

At p a r a g r a p h 7 0 Mr

Mo le fe .
MR MO LEFE: Th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r a ls o n o t e d th a t th e r e w a s a c u ltu r e o f
in fo r ma tio n - w e ll it s h o u ld b e in fo r ma tio n mis ma n a g e men t a c tu a lly.
20

A D V VA S SO N I SC : I th in k s h e s a ys a c u ltur e o f p o o r in fo r ma tio n ,
MR MO LEFE: O h , p o o r in fo r ma tio n ma n a g e me n t o r h id in g o f in fo r ma tio n
th a t c o u ld p r o v id e e v id e n ce o f ma la d min is tr a tio n . An d I c o n c u r w ith th e
fin d in g s o f th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w ju s t in b r ie f, th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r p r e s cr ib e d a
n u mb e r o f r e me d ia l a c tio n s w h ic h y o u b r ie fly r e fe r r e d to in p a r a g r ap h 7 1 .

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W h a t w e r e th e mo r e imp o r ta n t r e me d ia l a c tio n s th a t s h e p r e sc r ibe d ?
MR MO LEFE:

Fu n d a me n ta lly th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r C ha ir p er s o n w a n te d

a c tio n to b e ta k e n in r e s p e c t o f v a r io u s r e me d ia l a c tio n s . O n e o f th e m to
r e s to r e pr o p er a d min is tra tio n w ith in th e c omp a n y to in v es tig a te v a r iou s
c o n tr ac ts w h ich r e fle c te d ev id e nc e o f co r r u p tio n to in fo r m N a tio n a l
Tr e as u ry o f th e r e p o r t o f th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r a n d th e fin d in g s . An d th a t
N a tio n a l Tr ea s ur y wa s r e q u ire d to th e n g o fu r th e r to in ve s tig a te c on tr a c ts
a b o v e 1 0 millio n fr o m 2 0 1 2 .

An d th e n t o ta k e a p p r o p r ia te me a su r es

h a v in g d on e s o in a dd r es s in g th e fin d in gs o f th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r. Th e
10

Pu b lic Pr o te c to r w an te d a ls o th e b oa r d to d e a l w ith th e mis c o n du c t o f
fu n c tio n a r ies s u ch a s Mr Mo n ta n a a n d o th e rs .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : So , in r e g a r d to th a t- s o le t u s ju s t d e a l w ith e a c h o f
th e m. In r e g a r d to th e imp r o p e r c o n du c t of p e o p le lik e Mr Mo n ta n a , d id
th e b o a r d a c t o n th a t?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e b o a r d I sh o u ld s a y C h a ir p er so n b y th e w ay if I

r e me mb e r v er y w e ll th e r e p or t o f th e Pu b li c Pr o te c to r w h e n it c a me o u t,
Mr Mo n ta n a h a d a lr e a dy le ft.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Th e o n ly w a y in w h ic h th e - w e ll o n e o f th e w a y s in w h ic h
20

th e b o a r d c o u ld th e n a d d r e s s th e c o n c e r ns o f th e Pu b lic Pr o te c to r to th e
e x te n d th a t th e y a r e r e la te d to Mr Mo n ta n a w o u ld h a v e b e e n th e n to d e a l
w ith th e u n la w fu l c o n tr a c ts a n d in v e s tig a te th a t in d e ta il a n d th a t is th e n
a d d r es s ed in th e a p p lic a tio n s th a t w e ma d e b e fo r e th e c o ur t. Be c a u s e h e
w a s n o lo n ge r u n d er o u t a u th o r ity, w e c o u ld n o t d is c ip lin e h im. An d w ith
r e g a rd to Mr Mth imk h u lu w e h a d in itia te d d is c ip lin a ry p r oc e e d in g s , o f

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c o u rs e h e th e n r es ig n ed a t th a t p o in t.

In r e sp e c t o f th e r es t o f th e

e mp lo y e es w e s ec u r ed th e a s s is ta nc e th e s e r v ice s o f a fir m o f a tto r n e y s
H u n tle y Mk ha b e la to d e a l w ith a ll la b ou r r e la te d ma tte r s a r is in g o u t o f th e
Pu b lic Pr o te c to r s r e p or t. A t th e time w h e n I le ft PR A SA th a t p r o c e s s w a s
s till c o n tin u in g .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : J u s t ... ( in te r v e n e s)
MR MO LEFE:

An d I mu s t s a y C h a ir p e rs on th a t w e r e g u lar ly g av e th e

Pu b lic Pr o te c to r a n u p d a te r e p o r t o n w h a t w e w e r e d o in g a b o u t th e
r e me d ia l a c tio ns .
10

A D V VA S SO N I SC : J u s t fo r th e r e c o r d Mr Mo le fe , a t p a r a g r a p h 6 5 y o u
ma k e th e p o in t th a t in 2 0 1 5 y o u r b o ar d to o k a c tio n a g a in s t Mr Mth imk h u lu
b u t h e r e s ig n e d ju s t a s y o u h a d ju s t s a id .

I a m ju s t s a y in g th a t it is

c o n ta in e d h er e in y o u r a ffid a v it.
MR MO LEFE: It is c o r r ec t C h a ir p er s o n .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
Tr e as u ry.

Alr ig h t.

An d th e n w ith r e g a r d to th e N a tio n a l

Th e r e p o r tin g ma tte r s to th e N a tio n a l o r s u p p or tin g th e

N a tio n a l Tr e as u ry, d id th e b o a r d - p a r tic ipa te in th a t p r o c e s s ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e b o a r d d id c o o p e r a te C h a ir p e rs o n b u t a t th e time o f

th is r e p o r t a s I s ay th e b o a rd h a d a lr ea d y ta k e n s te ps to d e a l w ith is su e s
20

o f c o r r up tio n .

Th e c o mp a ny We rk s man s - a fir m o f a tto r n e y We rk s ma ns

h a d a lr e ad y be e n a pp o in te d a n d th ey we r e b u s y inv es tig a tin g . In o r d e r to
o b v ia te to a v o id d u p lic a tio n in th e in v e s tig atio n s I h e ld a me e tin g w ith th e
Min is te r o f Tr a n s p or t th e D ir e c to r G e n era l in th a t o r Ac tin g D ir e c to r
G e n e r a l in th a t d e p a r tme n t, th e C h ie f Pr o c u r e me n t O ffic e r o f N a tio n a l
Tr e as u ry Mr Ke n n e th Br o w n .

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At th a t me e tin g w e a g r e e d th a t a ll th e in v e s tig a tio ns w ill b e
c o o r d in a te d u n d e r th e b o a r d o f PR ASA a n d th a t N a tio n a l Tr e a su ry w o u ld
b e in fo r me d a b o u t wh a t PR ASA w a s d o ing .

D o w n th e lin e o f c o ur s e

b e c a us e th e re w e re ma n y man y v e ry ma n y s ma ll c o n tr ac ts a pp r ox ima te ly
2 0 0 o f th e s e c o n tr ac ts . We th e n a g r ee d to d is a g gr e g a te th e m to se p a ra te
th e m fr o m th o s e th a t PR ASA h a d a lr e a d y s ta r te d in v es tig a tin g a n d le t
N a tio n a l Tr e as ur y wo u ld d e a l- to d e a l w ith th e m.

Bu t th e c o o r d in a tio n

c o n tin u e d in th a t r e g a r d .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Mr Mo le fe le t u s g e t to th e n e x t ma jo r is s u e th a t y o u
10

r a is e in y o ur a ffid a v it n a me ly th e a tte mp t o f fo r me r Pr e s id e n t J ac o b Zu ma
to in te r v e n e in r e g ar d to th e b o ar d ’s ac ce p ta n c e o f Mr Mo n ta na ’s so c a lle d r es ig n a tio n . W ill y o u e x p la in h o w th at c a me a b o u t p le a s e ?
MR MO LEFE: C h a ir p e r s o n … ( in te rv e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: I w o n d e r - I a m s o r r y Mr Mo le fe . I w o n d e r w h e th e r w e
s h o u ld s ta r t u s e th e 5 min u te s le ft b e fo r e lu n c h o r w h e th e r w e s h o u ld
s ta r t it a f te r lu n c h .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . I t- a n d I ta k e y o ur p o in t C h a ir p e rs o n .
C H A IR PER SO N: I a m q u ite h a p p y th a t w e u s e th e 5 min u te s bu t it s e e ms
to b e th e k in d o f to p ic th a t y o u sh o u ld ra th e r s ta r t a n d tak e u p to fin is h

20

w ith o u t in te r r u p tio n if p o s s ib le . Is th a t fin e w ith e v e r yb o dy ?
MR MO LEFE: It is fin e w ith me C h a ir p e rs o n.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . O k a y, le t u s ta k e th e lu n c h b re a k . It is 1 2 :5 5 a n d
th e n w e w ill r e s u me a t 2 o ’c lo ck .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: We a d jo u r n .

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IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s y o u p l e a s e Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m p le a s e d t o s a y m y b u n d le s h a v e n o w g o i n g t o
b e in a c c o r d w i t h y o u r s Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is g o o d . T h a t is g o o d . O k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

W e a r e s t il l a t B u n d le D , A n n e x u r e S S 6 M r

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w e – h a s th is a l w a y s b e e n B u n d le D ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y a lr i g h t .

A n d y o u h a v e g o t t o s ta r t o n t h e

t o p ic a p p e a r i n g a t p a g e 3 0 o f M r M o l e fe ’s – 2 0 o f M r M o l e f e ’s a ff id a v i t?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : 2 0 y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M r M o l e f e y o u d e a l i n y o u r a ffi d a v it w i t h a n

a tt e m p t b y f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a t o p e r s u a d e th e B o a r d o r
p e r s u a d e y o u t o p e r s u a d e t h e B o a r d t o r e i n s t a te M r M o n t a n a .
20

Would

y o u t e l l u s h o w th is w h o l e i n c id e n t s t a r t e d – o r t h e w h o l e e p i s o d e
started?
M R M O L E F E : C h a i r p e r s o n y e s t e r d a y I r e f e r r e d t o a l o n g m e e ti n g I h e l d
w i t h M r M o n t a n a i n a s m a ll t o w n i n t h e S o u th e r n C a p e c a l le d K n y s n a . I
n e e d to i n d ic a te s o m e t h in g t h a t is n o t i n m y a ffi d a v i t b u t i t i s r e l e v a n t
t o t h e to p ic t h a t w e a r e d is c u s s i n g n o w.

S h o r tl y a f t e r t h a t m e e ti n g a

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f e w d a y s a f te r th a t m e e t in g w i th Mr M o n ta n a i n K n y s n a a n d w h ils t I w a s
s t il l i n K n y s n a I r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m m y s e c r e t a r y in P R A S A a d v is in g
m e th a t t h e y h a d r e c e i v e d a n e m a il fr o m t h e o ff ic e o f M r J e ff R a d e b e
w h ic h p u r p o r ts to b e a n e m a il in v i t in g m e to a m e e t i n g w i t h th e
P r e s i d e n t o f th e R e p u b lic o f S o u th A f r ic a , M r J a c o b Zu m a . I d o i n t h is
– i n t h e a ff id a v i t s o m e w h e r e d e a l w i th w h a t m y a tt i tu d e w a s to t h a t
email.

T h e e m a i l I w a s a d v is e d w a s fr o m a g m a il a d d r e s s .

At that

p o i n t I s a i d t o m y s e c r e t a r y te ll t h e m t h a t w e w o u l d n o t c o n s i d e r a n
e m a i l th a t r e q u ir e s m e t o g o a n d m e e t w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t p u r p o r t in g t o
10

c o m e fr o m M i n is t e r i n th e P r e s i d e n c y y e t i t is n o t c o n t a i n in g a n o ffic ia l
a d d r e s s . Te l l t h e m to is s u e a n i n v i ta t io n p r o p e r ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

A t t h a t ti m e w h a t w a s M i n i s t e r J e ff R a d e b e ’s

p o r t f o l i o ? H e w a s M i n is t e r o f w h a t ?
M R M O L E F E : I t h i n k h e w a s – h e w a s M i n is te r i n t h e P r e s id e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e P r e s i d e n c y.
MR MOLEF E: Ja, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t w a s w h o a t t h e t i m e ?
M R M O L E F E : T h e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t w a s M s D ip u o P e te r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
20

A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w b e fo r e t h a t …
M R M O L E F E : W e w i ll l a t e r r e t u r n t o t h is i s s u e a b o u t p r o to c o l w h ic h I
r a i s e la t e r o n b e c a u s e id e a l ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : T h e in v i t a t i o n s h o u l d h a v e c o m e th r o u g h m y M in is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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M R M O L E F E : ( In d i s ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I w o n d e r w h e t h e r i t i s n o t th e ti m e t o ta lk a b o u t
it n o w s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u d i d s a y y o u w a n t t o m e n t i o n t h is b e fo r e
y o u g o i n t o th e d is c u s s i o n .

Is i t n o t t h e r ig h t t i m e to ta lk a b o u t

p r o t o c o l? D o y o u th i n k y o u w a n t t o d e a l w it h i t l a t e r ?
M R M O L E F E : T h e m a tt e r o f p r o t o c o l I d e a l w i t h i n th e t o p ic b u t f u r t h e r
down.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M R M O L E F E : I n th e t o p ic ( in d i s ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y M r M o l e fe . T h e C h a ir p e r s o n i s s a y i n g g iv e n
w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d y o u r a tt i tu d e t o w a r d s p r o t o c o l w o u l d i t n o t b e m o r e
a p p r o p r i a t e to t a l k a b o u t i t n o w a n d th e n w e c a n l e a v e i t a n d w e w i ll
n o t t a lk a b o u t i t w h e r e i t a p p e a r s i n y o u r a ffi d a v it ?
CHAIRPERSON: I think – I think Mr Molefe…
M R M O L E F E : M y c o u n s e l u s e d t o s a y a s i t p le a s e s M y L o r d s h i p . I w i ll
d e a l w it h i t n o w M r C h a ir p e r s o n .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u – y o u k n o w y o u r s t a t e m e n t – y o u r a ffi d a v i t

o b v i o u s l y m u c h m o r e t h a n I k n o w i t a n d if t h e r e i s a p a r ti c u la r r e a s o n
w h y y o u t h i n k y o u – i t w o u l d c o n n e c t b e t t e r w it h t h e s t o r y to d e a l w i t h
t h a t l a t e r a s p e c t la t e r i t is fi n e b u t I t h o u g h t y o u d o m a k e t h e p o i n t th a t
y o u s a i d if y o u a r e i n v it i n g m e to m e e t w it h t h e P r e s i d e n t d o n o t u s e a n
u n o ff ic i a l e m a i l a d d r e s s , u s e a n o ff ic ia l e m a il a d d r e s s . A n d I th o u g h t

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t h a t is p a r t o f i n s is ti n g u p o n p r o p e r c o m m u n i c a t io n w h ic h m i g h t f it i n
w i t h – w e l l w it h t h e is s u e o f p r o to c o l . B u t i f y o u t h i n k l o o k m a y b e th e
a s p e c t y o u w a n t t o d e a l w i t h f u r t h e r a b o u t p r o t o c o l f i ts i n b e tt e r l a t e r
that is fine.
M R M O L E F E : I w i ll d e a l w i th i t n o w C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : L a te r o n i f I r e f e r t o i t i t w il l b e m e r e ly fo r e m p h a s i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e .
M R M O L E F E : S o a f e w d a y s l a te r I – I t h e n r e c e i v e a m e s s a g e t h a t th e
10

P r e s i d e n t w o u l d l ik e to m e e t w i th m e t h i s t i m e i n C a p e To w n . T h is ti m e
t h e r e q u e s t c a m e fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n c y. I d i d n o t c o n t i n u e to in s is t o n
a n y th in g w r i t t e n . I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s te le p h o n ic m e s s a g e ?
M R M O L E F E : I t – I t h i n k it w a s te l e p h o n ic m e s s a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : To m y o ff ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : A n d th e n I – I t h e n r e r o u t e d m y fl ig h t – m y j o u r n e y t o g o
t o C a p e To w n . T h e Pr e s id e n t d i d n o t m e e t m e . I w a i t e d t h e r e f o r e v e r.

20

A t a b o u t f iv e o r s o l a te a f t e r n o o n h e s a i d n o , n o le t u s m e e t a n o t h e r
ti m e m a y b e i n P r e to r i a I c a n n o t m e e t y o u t o d a y. S o I w e n t b a c k a n d i t
w a s i n A p r i l.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e p e r io d w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r o u n d a b o u t w h a t

m o n th I a s s u m e i n 2 0 1 5 ?
M R M O L E F E : T h e p e r i o d w a s i n A p r il .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O h j a i t w a s in A p r il .
MR MOLEFE:

S a y A p r i l C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s s h o r tl y a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g

t h a t I h a d w i th M r M o n t a n a .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
M R M O L E F E : B e c a u s e I w a s s ti ll i n K n y s n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEF E: I had not yet gone back.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. O k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r M o l e fe b e fo r e y o u g o o n d i d y o u fi n d i t r e l e v a n t
10

t h a t t h a t r e q u e s t to – f o r y o u t o m e e t th e P r e s i d e n t c a m e s o o n a f te r t h e
m e e ti n g w i th M r M o n t a n a ?
M R M O L E F E : A t th a t t i m e I d i d n o t r e a ll y q u e s ti o n a n y t h i n g r e la t in g to
the request and I thought well if the President says come and meet me.
B u t t h e s u b s e q u e n t e v e n ts p u t o n e i n a p o s i t io n o f n o w c o n n e c t in g t h e
dots.

E s p e c i a l ly b e c a u s e i t c o m e s s h o r t ly a f te r m y m e e ti n g w it h Mr

M o n ta n a w h e r e h e h a d w h a t I c a l l a li t a n y o f c o m p l a in ts . A n d t h e n o f
c o u r s e l a te r o n a s w e k n o w t h e m e e ti n g is h e l d i n P r e to r i a .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e – t h e e m a i l t h a t h a d c o m e f r o m M r J e ff

R a d e b e o n th e b a s is o f – th r o u g h a g m a i l e m a i l a d d r e s s h a d i t
20

in d i c a t e d w h a t i t is t h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t w a n t e d t o m e e t w it h y o u a b o u t o r
h a d i t n o t in d ic a t e d t h a t y o u t o o k i t t h a t i t m i g h t b e P R A S A i s s u e s ?
M R M O L E F E : Th e e m a i l h a d s a id t h a t h e w a n ts t o d i s c u s s t h e a ff a i r s
of PRASA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M O L E F E : A ff a ir s o f P R A S A .

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CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n – m e s s a g e

c o n fir m e d th a t o r j u s t s a i d th e Pr e s i d e n t w a n t e d t o s e e y o u ?
M R M O L E F E : T h e t e l e p h o n e m e s s a g e c o n fir m e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t it w a s P R A S A a ff a ir s .
M R M O L E F E : Ye s i t w a s a b o u t P R A S A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
M R M O L E F E : B u t I d o – w e s p o k e a b o u t p r o t o c o l e a r li e r o n . I f o u n d it
b iz a r r e t h a t a lt h o u g h I m e t th e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d r e p o r ti n g to a
m e m b e r o f t h e e x e c u ti v e c a b i n e t M in is t e r a p p o in t e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t
10

t h a t w h e n h e w a n t s t o c o m m u n ic a te h e c i r c u m v e n t t h e – t h e o ff ic e o f
t h e M i n i s t e r a n d t h e M i n i s t e r h e r s e l f th a t i t b e c o m e s d ir e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n th e M i n is t e r g e t s i n v o l v e d a l s o .
M R M O L E F E : T h e M i n i s t e r is n o t g e t ti n g i n v o lv e d i n th a t r e g a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

T h e – a n d i t is a m a t te r I r a i s e d b e c a u s e in t h e t o p ic

u n d e r d is c u s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : A t th e m e e ti n g a t t h a t s t a g e I d id n o t e v e n k n o w t h a t M r
M o n ta n a w a s g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f t h a t m e e t i n g .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

I s a i d t o t h e P r e s i d e n t , M r Pr e s i d e n t c o u l d y o u e x p l a in

t o m e w h a t is t h e n a tu r e o f p r o t o c o l t h a t y o u a p p l y ? Yo u h a v e i n v it e d
m e t o t h is m e e ti n g – it w a s a d ir e c t i n v it a ti o n to m e a n d y o u h a v e
in v i te d m y M i n is t e r t o t h e s a m e m e e ti n g . N o w I r e p o r t t o t h e M i n i s t e r.
S h o u l d y o u n o t r a th e r h a v e i n v i t e d t h e M in is te r a n d s a y t o t h e M in is t e r,

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I w o u l d l ik e y o u to c o m e w i t h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d .
v e r y ir a t e w h e n I s a i d th a t .

He got

H e s a id , w h y a r e y o u a s k i n g m e t h a t

q u e s t io n ? W h y a r e y o u a s k i n g m e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : W e ll I h a v e a p p o in t e d h e r I c a n i n v i te a n y b o d y I w a n t t o
appoint.
CHAIRPERSON: hm.
MR MOLEFE:

S o t h a t – s o I s a i d , w e l l Mr P r e s id e n t th a t is y o u r

p r e r o g a tiv e w e c a n le a v e t h e s u b j e c t . J a a n d i t is s i m il a r t o t h i s o n e .
10

T h e o n e o f th e g m a i l h e – w h a t i s w o r r is o m e is th a t i t c o m e s a c r o s s a s
s o m e t h i n g d o n e b y a p e r s o n w h o w h e n s o m e d i ffi c u l t is s u e s m ig h t a r is e
– a r is i n g o u t o f – a r is in g – m ig h t a r is e a s a r e s u l t o f a m e e ti n g
r e q u e s t e d b y g m a il y o u w o u ld s a y b u t t h e g m a il i s n o t m in e . I d o n o t
k n o w i f th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n s u s ta in a b l e b u t i t is – i t – t h e m e e ti n g
c o u l d e a s i ly h a v e e n d e d a s a n in f o r m a l a ffa ir.
d is c u s s io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n P R A S A .

Ye t t h e s u b je c t f o r

A n d I c o u ld h a v e s a i d l o o k t h is

r e a l ly i t is a b o u t u s a s c o m r a d e s w h ic h y o u w i ll s e e C h a ir p e r s o n w i t h
r e g a r d t o t h e m e e t in g o f th e 2 0 A u g u s t a ls o . I t w a s c o n v e n e d a s – i t is
c a l l e d b y t h e Pr e s i d e n t .
20

T h e P r e s id e n t t o th e g u e s t h o u s e o f t h e

P r e s i d e n c y b u t w e n o w t a l k a b o u t th e A N C b u t w e t a lk a b o u t m a t te r s
t h a t th e B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s h a d d e c id e d u p o n a n d w e p u r p o r t t o r e v i e w
t h e d e c is i o n s o f t h a t B o a r d i n a m e e t i n g .

T h a t is f u n d a m e n t a l ly a

m e e ti n g o f th e p a r t y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : M a y I a s k y o u t w o q u e s ti o n s r e l a ti n g t o fi r s tly t h e
in v i ta t io n fr o m M r J e ff R a d e b e . D id y o u k n o w M r J e ff R a d e b e p r io r to

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t h a t m e e ti n g o r p r i o r t o t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n to y o u ?
M R M O L E F E : I – I k n e w M r J e ff R a d e b e C h a ir p e r s o n . I s p e n t a b i t o f
ti m e w i t h h i m o n R o b b e n I s l a n d a s w e ll a n d I s e r v e d w i t h h i m o n th e
N a t io n a l E x e c u tiv e C o m m i t t e e o f t h e A f r i c a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s u n til
t h e c o n f e r e n c e o f P o lo k w a n e o f 2 0 0 7 . I h a d b e e n s e r v in g w i t h h i m f o r
about 16 years on the MEC.
a c ti v i ti e s o f th e p a r ty.

S o – a n d I k n e w h i m a ls o fr o m m a n y

H e w a s m a d e H e a d o f P o l ic y i n t h e p a r ty s o

p o li c y d is c u s s i o n s a n d p l a n s f o r e l e c t io n s a l l r e s o r t e d u n d e r h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
10

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a d id y o u k n o w

him?
M R M O L E F E : I – I k n e w P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a C h a ir p e r s o n . H e to o I
s e r v e d w i th h i m o n t h e N a ti o n a l E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e o f t h e A f r ic a n
N a t io n a l C o n g r e s s s i n c e 1 9 9 1 u n t il a t t h e ti m e w h e n w e w e n t th r o u g h
the conference of 2007.

O f c o u r s e a t t h a t t i m e h e h a d a lr e a d y b e e n

a s k e d to r e s i g n – h e h a d b e e n a s k e d b y P r e s i d e n t M b e k i to s t e p a s i d e
a s th e D e p u t y Pr e s id e n t o f th e c o u n tr y b u t h e r e m a in e d t h e D e p u t y
P r e s i d e n t o f th e p a r ty b e c a u s e t h a t is a n e le c te d p o s i ti o n b y a p a r t y
c o n fe r e n c e w h e r e h e c o u l d n o t b e r e m o v e d .
20

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w w h e n y o u s a i d th a t th e in v i t a t i o n fr o m M r

R a d e b e h a d c o m e v i a a p r iv a t e g m a il a d d r e s s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u s a y –
y o u s a i d t h a t t h a t w a s w o r r i s o m e . W h a t w o r r ie d y o u ? I m e a n y o u k n e w
a b o u t t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) p e r s o n s w h y w o u l d y o u b e w o r r i e d t h a t y o u h a d
b e e n c a l le d v ia a p r iv a t e e m a il ?
M R M O L E F E : I w a s w o r r i e d t h a t w e a r e o s t e n s i b ly g o i n g t o d is c u s s th e

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a ffa ir s o f a s t a te – a n o r g a n o f s t a t e w h ic h r e p o r t to a n o t h e r M i n is t e r.
B u t I a m b e i n g i n v it e d in a v e r y i n fo r m a l w a y o f a g m a il a n d m y c o n c e r n
w a s t h a t t h is c a n n o t b e r e a ll y a p r o p e r m e e t i n g a n d th a t is w h y I
in s is t e d th a t a fo r m a l i n v i t a ti o n b e s e n t . A n d i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n e a s y
t o s e n d t h a t i n v i t a ti o n o n a g o v e r n m e n t a d d r e s s a n d i t w a s n o t d o n e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

O f c o u r s e t h e r e w a s t h is d i ffic u lt y t h a t a s y o u

p o i n t o u t y o u a r e a r e p o r t e e t o th e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d i t w o u l d b e
o u t o f p r o to c o l f o r th e Pr e s i d e n t t o s u p e r s e d e h e r a n d m a k e th e
in v i ta t io n t o y o u . T h a t is h o w I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o b e c o n c e r n e d .
10

M R M O L E F E : Ye s I a m s a y i n g s o b u t y o u k n o w p e o p l e s o m e t i m e s j u s t
ig n o r e p r o t o c o ls .

B u t it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t is n o t c o n v e n ti o n a l a n d I

w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d h i m t o c o m m u n ic a t e th r o u g h t h e M i n i s t e r. B u t
C h a ir p e r s o n a s w e g o a lo n g I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t f o r u s t o s e p a r a te
b e t w e e n t h e m e e t in g o f th e 2 0 A u g u s t a n d – a n d th e m e e t i n g o f th e o n e
t h a t w a s r e q u e s te d i n A p r i l .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
M R M O L E F E : B e c a u s e t h e y f o ll o w d i ffe r e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : M e th o d s a l t o g e th e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
MR MOLEF E: The one…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e o n e th a t y o u h a v e b e e n ta lk in g a b o u t w a s f o r
A p r il ?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . U l t i m a te ly i t d i d n o t h a p p e n i n A p r i l ?

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M R M O L E F E : I t d i d n o t h a p p e n – I f l e w t o C a p e To w n b u t t h e m e e t i n g
did not happen.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u a v a i le d y o u r s e lf fo r th e C a p e To w n o n e a n d
it d i d n o t h a p p e n . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R M O L E F E : M a y th e C h a ir p le a s e r e p e a t th e q u e s ti o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a v a i le d y o u r s e l f fo r a m e e t in g i n C a p e To w n .
M R M O L E F E : I d i d a v a i l m y s e l f C h a ir p e r s o n . I d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e m e e t in g d i d n o t h a p p e n .
M R M O L E F E : D id n o t h a p p e n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A lr i g h t s o t h a t m e e ti n g d i d n o t ta k e p l a c e i n A p r i l .
D i d s o m e t h i n g h a p p e n la t e r o n a g a i n a b o u t a m e e t in g ?
M R M O L E F E : T h e p i c t u r e th a t h a d h a p p e n e d t h e c o n t e x t w a s t h a t M r
M o n ta n a h a d s a id h e w a s l e a v in g .

We had released him and he

e n g a g e d i n a l l t h e s e a c t iv i t ie s w h i c h r e s u l t e d i n u s s a y i n g t o h i m , w e l l
y o u r s ta y i n t h e c o m p a n y d o e s n o t s e r v e t h e p u r p o s e fo r w h i c h y o u
w e r e a s k e d t o s t a y in t h e c o m p a n y s o g o n o w. S o ( i n d is ti n c t) t h a t w e
h a d a ll o w e d h i m to g o a t th a t t i m e . A n d o f c o u r s e a t th a t p o i n t in ti m e
a ft e r w e h a d a ll o w e d t o g o h e h a d s t a r t e d m a k in g p u b li c s t a te m e n ts
20

s a y in g t h a t h e – i f t h e g o v e r n m e n t r e q u ir e s h i m t o r e t u r n h e is w i lli n g to
r e tu r n a s a G r o u p C E O o f P R A S A .

B u t t h e c o n d i t io n s fo r h is r e tu r n

m u s t b e t h a t th e e x is t in g b o a r d m u s t b e d is s o lv e d , i t m u s t g o , h e w il l
n o t w o r k w i th t h a t b o a r d . H e w o u l d n o t w o r k w i th m y b o a r d . S o a l o t o f
p u b lic i ty w a s g iv e n t o t h is m a t t e r.

I n t h e i n te r i m I m u s t s a y th a t th e

M i n is t e r a ls o b e g i n s t o s a y, b u t y o u d id n o t c o n s u l t m e p r o p e r l y b e fo r e

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
y o u r e l e a s e d th e G r o u p C E O . B u t h e r e s i g n e d a n d I – h e s a i d h e d o e s
n o t w a n t a n e x te n s i o n o f th e c o n tr a c t .

S o t h e M i n i s t e r k e e p s s a y in g

t h a t – a n d t h e y s ta r t – b e g i n n i n g to s a y w h a t M r M o n t a n a w a s s a y i n g .
H e s a y s , I a m t h e b e s t p e r s o n fo r t h e j o b . I a m t h e G C E . I h a v e b e e n
tr a i n e d in m a t t e r s o f r a i l a n d p u b lic tr a n s p o r t a ti o n y o u k n o w.

I know

t h is j o b s o th e c o u n tr y n e e d s m e . S o th e M i n is t e r s a y s th a t a n d w e s a y
w e h a v e ta k e n a d e c is io n a n d t h e r e is n o w n o g o i n g b a c k o n t h a t
d e c is i o n .

It w a s c l e a r to m e t h a t th e M in is t e r a t t h a t p o in t w a s

b e g in n i n g t o g e t p r e s s u r e s fr o m o th e r q u a r t e r s t o tr y a n d g e t u s to
10

r e v ie w o u r d e c is i o n o r t o g e t i t r e v e r s e d .

S h e r a is e d a n u m b e r o f

is s u e s a b o u t s t a r t in g t o t a l k a b o u t th e p e r f o r m a n c e o f t h e b u s i n e s s –
t h is a n d t h a t h e a s k e d f o r a r e p o r t . Th e r e is a s u b s ta n ti v e r e p o r t th a t I
w r o t e o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d i n r e s p o n s e t o s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s th a t th e
M i n is t e r w a s r a is in g a n d th a t r e p o r t i s a v a i la b l e s h o u ld t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
r e a d it .
CHAIRPERSON:

It w o u l d b e g o o d t o g e t i t b e c a u s e a s I r e a d y o u r

a ffi d a v i t o n e o f t h e t h in g s th a t s e e m e d to b e q u i te u n e x p e c t e d f o r m e is
t h a t a t a c e r ta in s t a g e o r b e f o r e t h e M in i s t e r – M in is t e r D i p u o P e t e r s
le f t t h e P o r t fo li o i t s e e ms h e r a t ti t u d e t o w a r d s y o u r B o a r d m a y h a v e
20

changed.

I – I h a v e g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n fo r q u i t e s o m e t i m e i n y o u r

a ffi d a v i t t h a t h e s e e m e d – s h e s e e m e d t o h a v e t h e – b e e n v e r y p o s i ti v e
t o w a r d s y o u r B o a r d a n d s u p p o r t iv e . B u t t h a t fr o m a c e r ta i n t i m e b e f o r e
s h e l e f t t h e P o r t f o l io s h e s e e m e d t o h a v e h a d a d i ff e r e n t a t t i tu d e .
m a y b e m is r e a d in g y o u a ff id a v i t b u t I s e e m e d t o p ic k t h a t u p .
M R M O L E F E : T h e a s s e s s m e n t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 76 of 146

I

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : I n e e d t o – to a l s o s a y b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e m a y – w it h –
m a y w e l l a ls o d r a w s o m e c o n n e c ti o n w i th t h e u l t i m a te d i s m is s a l o f t h e
M i n is t e r h e r s e l f .

T h e – I d o r e fe r t o th i s m a t t e r i n my a ffi d a v i t t h a t

t h e r e w e r e c o n c e r t e d e ffo r t s t o d i s c r e d it th e i n v e s ti g a to r s w e h a d
appointed.

A n d o n e o f t h o s e w a y s t o – t o u n d e r m in e t h a t w a s to

s u g g e s t th a t t h e y s h o u l d h a v e b e e n v e t te d b y s t a t e s e c u r i ty a g e n c y –
t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y. W e w e r e g o i n g t o b e th e f ir s t s ta t e o w n e d
company
10

when

it

a p p o i n ts

p r o f e s s i o n a ls

to

provide

professional

s e r v ic e s t h e y h a v e t o b e v e t t e d b y S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.

S o th e

P r e s i d e n t a s k e d t h e M i n i s te r to te ll m e t h a t – t o e x p l a i n w h e t h e r t h e y
w e r e v e t te d b y S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y. W h e n t h e M i n is t e r c a m e t o m e I
d is m i s s e d i t b e c a u s e i t w a s a v e r y s tr a n g e a p p r o a c h a n d I s a i d , a s
PRASA we are not a government department where somebody could say
w e w o u ld b e p r iv y t o c la s s if i e d i n fo r m a ti o n o f t h e s t a t e – o f t h e c a b i n e t
o r t h e g o v e r n m e n t a n d t o t h a t e x t e n t s u c h c l a s s i fi e d in f o r m a t io n w o u l d
n o t b e s a f e i n t h e h a n d s o f t h e B o a r d o r o u r i n v e s t ig a t o r s u n l e s s th e y
were vetted.

S o – s o I k il le d t h a t a r g u m e n t a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e

d e m o n s t r a t in g t h a t t h e r e h a v e b e e n s e v e r a l a p p o i n t m e n ts o f s e r v ic e
20

p r o v i d e r s in r a n g e o f p u b li c i n s ti t u ti o n s , c o m p a n i e s , a n d s t a t e o w n e d
c o m p a n i e s . N o t o n c e t o my k n o w l e d g e h a d t h e y b e e n r e q u ir e d t o b e –
t o a v a i l t h e ir p r o f e s s i o n a l c o n s i d e r e d fo r a p p o i n t m e n t t o b e v e t te d b y
t h e m . A n d m y v i e w w a s t h a t t h is p r o f e s s i o n a l o r g a n is a t i o n s t h e y h a v e
g o t t h e ir o w n B o a r d o r i n s t it u ti o n s w h ic h m a k e d e c i s i o n s o n w h e t h e r
t h e y a r e w o r t h y o f b e i n g i n th a t p r o f e s s i o n a n d w e le f t i t t h e r e .

Page 77 of 146

So

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
t h e r e w a s t h is c o n c e r n . N o w – b u t I d o n o t w a n t to g o in t o d e t a i ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : A b o u t t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MOLEFE:

I f y o u w a n t t o r e tu r n t o t h e t o p i c w i t h th e f o r m e r

P r e s i d e n t m e e ti n g o f A u g u s t .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . B u t b e f o r e w e g e t t o th a t I j u s t w a n t u s t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r t o r a is e y o u r v o i c e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : O h s o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k y o u d o m o v e a w a y s o w h e r e a s y o u r v o ic e is

s o f t b y n a tu r e s o o k a y tr y a n d r a i s e it .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Yo u – a s y o u p l e a s e C h a ir p e r s o n . M r M o le f e I j u s t
w o u ld l ik e u s t o h a v e a t t e n t i o n to t h e ti m e li n e .

The question of the

in v e s t i g a t o r s o b v i o u s l y c o m e s in a ft e r M r M o n ta n a h a s le f t b e c a u s e t h a t
is w h e n t h e y – t h e y a r e – a r e a p p o i n t e d .
MR MOLEF E: That is correct.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d I j u s t w a n t y o u t o k e e p t h is in m i n d b e c a u s e I
w a n t t o a s k y o u q u e s ti o n s a b o u t i t l a t e r. I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t y o u s a y
t h a t th e M i n is t e r e v e n b e f o r e y o u r m e e t in g i n A u g u s t t h a t th e Pr e s i d e n t
20

h a d a lr e a d y a s k e d y o u – h a d a l r e a d y s u g g e s te d th a t m a y b e th e
d e c is i o n t o a c c e p t M r M o n t a n a ’s p a r t in g o f w a y s w it h y o u w e r e – s h o u l d
b e r e v is it e d . A m I r i g h t t h a t t h a t is s u e b e tw e e n y o u a n d t h e M in is t e r
c a m e b e f o r e th e m e e ti n g w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t ?
MR MOLEF E: That is correct.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

Now just keep that in mind.

Page 78 of 146

S o t h a t w o u ld b e

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
before August 2015?
MR MOLEF E: That is correct.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A lr ig h t .

T h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s c o m e a f t e r w a r d s .

Now…
MR MOLEFE:

N o th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s d o n o t c o m e a f t e r A u g u s t 2 0 t h .

T h e in v e s t i g a t io n h a s s t a r t e d s li g h tly e a r li e r t h a n t h a t b e c a u s e e v e n a t
t h a t p o in t i n ti m e t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t w a s o u t a n d I d o
in d i c a t e t h e c o m m e n t t h a t th e M in is t e r m a d e a t t h a t m e e t i n g a b o u t t h e
f a c t t h a t t h e B o a r d w a s i n v e s ti g a ti n g .
10

A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n M r M o n t a n a le f t I th in k y o u s a i d y e s te r d a y o n

t h e 1 5 J u ly 2 0 1 5 , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o W e r k m a n s w o u l d h a v e s t a r te d …
M R M O L E F E : S h o r t ly a ft e r t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S h o r tly a f te r t h a t j a b u t b e fo r e t h e m e e t in g o f 3 0

August.
M R M O L E F E : B e f o r e th e m e e ti n g w i th t h e Pr e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w l a te r i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d I j u s t w a n t u s to

s t ic k to ti m e li n e s s o t h a t w e k n o w w h e t h e r r e a s o n s g iv e n f o r c e r t a in
d e c is i o n s a r e p r o p e r r e a s o n s . W h e n M r M o n ta n a le f t t h e M i n is t e r a n d
s o o n t h e r e a f te r t h e Mi n is te r a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ffi d a v i t d i d n o t r a is e
q u e s t io n s a b o u t t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e – o f t h e f o r e n s ic i n v e s t ig a t o r s .
Or am I wrong about that?

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
M R M O L E F E : Yo u – t h e C o u n s e l is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n s h e d i d n o t . I n
f a c t w e h a v e m e e ti n g s w i t h t h e M i n is t e r i n fo r m i n g h e r a b o u t w h a t t h e
B o a r d w a s d o in g . O n e o f th o s e m e e t i n g s w a s h e l d a t th e – w h a t i s n o w
k n o w s a s t h e O R Ta m b o I n t e r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t in t h e V I P l o u n g e i n t h e
Board there. But several others have taken place between me and the
in v e s t i g a t o r s a n d th e M in is t e r. B e c a u s e a s n e w t h in g s w e r e e m e r g i n g
w e w a n t e d t h e Mi n is t e r t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is – w h a t w a s e m e r g in g
fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d s h e h a d n o – a t t h a t s ta g e s h e e x p r e s s e d n o

d i ff ic u l ty w i t h th e ( i n d i s t i n c t) .
M R M O L E F E : S h e h a d n o o b j e c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : To th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

I d i d s a y a ls o t h a t e a r l i e r o n i n m y e v i d e n c e to d a y

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t a f te r th e . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] in t h e c o n t e x t i n w h ic h P R A S A
h a d a l r e a d y b e g u n i ts o w n i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h e q u e s ti o n a r o s e o f h o w d o
y o u th e n c o o r d i n a t e a c t io n r e la t e d to t h e r e m e d i a l w h e r e a c ti o n s a r e
r e q u ir e d b y . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

T h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

R e m e d i a l a c t io n .
R e m e d i a l a c ti o n s o f t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a n d i t is a t a

m e e ti n g w i th t h e M i n is te r, t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f
Tr a n s p o r t a n d t h e C h ie f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff i c e r o f N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y, M r

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K e n n e t h B r o w n e , t h a t w e th e n a g r e e d t h a t t h e r e n e e d e d t o b e
c o o r d i n a t io n b u t c o o r d in a ti o n w i ll b e u n d e r t h e B o a r d o f Tr a n s – P R A S A
s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

M m m , m m m , o k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I w a n t e d a g a i n to k e e p t h e t i m e l i n e s Mr M o le f e , a

li t tl e e a r l i e r y o u s a i d t h a t th e Pr e s i d e n t h a d a s k e d th e M in is t e r i f t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s h a d b e e n c h e c k e d b y t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.
MR MOLEFE:

I d i d s a y s o C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h a t h a p p e n e d b e f o r e th e

m e e ti n g o f th e 2 0 t h o f A u g u s t.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:

B e f o r e t h e m e e t i n g o f th e 2 0 t h o f A u g u s t ?

I think so, ja.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

O k a y, o k a y, s o t h a t m e a n s th e q u e s ti o n o f t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n s w a s o n e o f t h e m a t te r s t h a t i n a s e n s e p r e c e d e d th e
m e e ti n g o f th e 2 0 t h ?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w d id t h e M i n i s t e r t e l l y o u t h a t i t w a s t h e

P r e s i d e n t w h o h a d a s k e d i f t h e fo r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a to r s h a d b e e n
s c r u t i n is e d .
20

MR MOLEFE:

She did Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u fi n d i t o d d t h a t s u c h a n e n q u ir y c a m e f r o m

t h e P r e s i d e n t o r y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w i f i t w a s u s u a l o r n o t u s u a l , y o u ju s t
responded?
MR MOLEFE:

C e r t a i n ly C h a ir p e r s o n I f o u n d i t o d d b e c a u s e w h y w h e n

w e w e r e ju s t b e g i n n in g to in v e s t i g a t e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t s h o u ld b e

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e fi r m w h o . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] t h a t h e is i n v e s ti g a ti n g
w h e n i n fa c t s u c h a q u e s t io n n e v e r a r o s e a b o u t v e r y m a n y o t h e r
in v e s t i g a t io n w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d i n r e s p e c t o f p u b l ic , a ff e c ti n g p u b li c
e n t e r p r i s e s o f g o v e r n m e n t o w n e d c o m p a n i e s , S t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n ie d ,
le t m e p u t i t t h a t w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I u n d e r s t o o d y o u to s a y t h e M i n i s te r a ls o r a is e d t h e

is s u e o f t h e . . . [i n d i s t i n c t] t o t h e e x t e n t th a t y o u m a y h a v e s a i d t h a t w a s
t h a t c o n n e c te d w it h s i m p ly h e r c o n v e y i n g t o y o u w h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d
r a i s e d o r w a s s h e a ls o r a is i n g it o f h e r o w n a c c o r d .
10

MR MOLEFE:

S h e – I t h in k it w a s c o n n e c t e d w i t h w h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t

h a d r a is e d w it h h e r b e c a u s e h a d i t h a p p e n e d o u t o f h e r o w n a c c o r d s h e
w o u ld h a v e r a is e d i t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

M u c h e a r li e r.
M u c h e a r li e r a s w e w e r e i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e r e m e d ia l

a c ti o n s o f t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r a n d t h e fi n d i n g s , i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h e
fi n d i n g s o f t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l , s h e d i d n o t r a is e i t .

In fact in the

s a m e m e e t in g w h e r e s h e r a i s e s i t s h e s a y s t h e P r e s id e n t w a n ts t o k n o w
if t h is f ir m h a s b e e n v e t t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O h s o t o t h e e x t e n t th a t I m a y h a v e u n d e r s t o o d y o u

t o s a y th e M i n i s t e r r a is e d t h e is s u e i s n o t a s e p a r a t e o c c a s i o n , i t i s t h e
o c c a s i o n w h e n s h e s a id t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s r a i s e d th is is s u e .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:

And what was your response to that?

I a t t e m p te d to r e s p o n d t o t h a t a n d s a y t h a t I c h a l l e n g e d

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t h e b a s is u p o n w h ic h a fir m o f p r o f e s s i o n a ls in v e s ti g a t in g o n b e h a l f o f
P R A S A o u ts id e G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n t n e e d e d to b e v e t t e d b y S t a t e
S e c u r i ty A g e n c y, a n d I d id s a y th a t t h e r e i s n o b a s i s b e c a u s e w h e n y o u
d o t h is v e t ti n g o f t h is i n s t i tu t io n a n d y o u g e t S t a te S e c u r it y A g e n c y to
d o i t o n e w o u l d e x p e c t th a t t h e y a r e d o i n g i t b e c a u s e t h e r e is f e a r t h a t
if t h e y d o n ’ t d o i t c la s s i f ie d i n fo r m a ti o n o f t h e c a b in e t a n d t h e
g o v e r n m e n t c o u l d g o i n to t h e h a n d s o f p e o p le w h o a r e n o t s w o r n t o
s e c r e c y o r c o n fi d e n t i a li t y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M r S o n i h e i s g i v i n g t h is a n s w e r f o r a s e c o n d t i m e ,

h e h a s g iv e n i t b e f o r e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s , s o I j u s t w a n t t o s a y . . .[ i n te r v e n e s ]

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no I understand.

. . .y o u m u s t k e e p a n e y e o n t h a t .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d I h a d t h e s a m e d i ff ic u l ty a s y o u M r C h a ir m a n ,

I d i d n ’ t k n o w i f i t w a s t h e s a m e o c c a s io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y, o k a y, o k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w w h a t w a s th e M i n i s t e r ’s r e a c ti o n t o t h a t

w h e n y o u s a i d th is t h a t l o o k I a m s u r p r i s e d y o u a r e a s k in g m e , I a m
20

s u r p r is e d th e P r e s i d e n t h a s a s k e d . I n o th e r w o r d s d id s h e a c c e p t i t o r
w a s s h e r e s is ti n g y o u r e x p la n a ti o n ?
MR MOLEFE:

W e l l I b e l ie v e th a t t h e M i n is t e r a c c e p t e d b e c a u s e s h e

h a d n o a r g u m e n t a g a i n s t w h a t I s a id a n d if s h e d is a g r e e d w it h m e s h e
w o u ld h a v e h a d t o p r e s e n t a r a t io n a l c a s e f o r d is a g r e e in g w i t h m e a n d
s h e d id n o t d o s o .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w I g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t i n y o u r e x c h a n g e w i th

t h e M i n i s te r i t s e e ms t h a t s h e w a s ju s t c o n v e y i n g w h a t th e P r e s i d e n t
h a d r a i s e d , is t h a t a fa ir i m p r e s s i o n ?
MR MOLEFE:

I t is n o t my in t e n t i o n – w e l l s h e w a s c o n v e y in g w h a t t h e

P r e s i d e n t s a i d b u t a ls o w h a t s h e p r e s e n te d a s h e r c o n c e r n a s w e l l, b u t
t h e m e e ti n g w a s n o t a b o u t th a t o n l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, n o t h a t ’s fi n e .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w a ft e r t h e a tt e m p t , t h e m e e t i n g t h a t d i d n ’ t

t a k e p l a c e in A p r i l i n C a p e To w n , w e n o w h a v e t h e m e e t i n g i n A u g u s t ,
10

h o w d i d th a t m e e t i n g n o w c o m e a b o u t?
MR MOLEFE:

Th e m e e ti n g i n A u g u s t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Now August 20?

In A u g u s t 2 0 y e s , i s n o w c o n v e n e d a g a i n b y th e M i n is t e r

in th e P r e s i d e n c y. T h is t i m e th e y in f o r m e d t h e M i n i s t e r a n d th e y h a d
t o l d h e r th a t th e y h a d i n v i te d m e b e c a u s e I a ls o g e t a s e p a r a t e
in v i ta t io n b u t t h e M in is t e r c a m e t o m e t o s a y t h e P r e s i d e n t w a n t s to s e e
u s a t t h r e e o ’ c l o c k o n t h e 2 0 t h o f A u g u s t a t th e P r e s i d e n t ’s G u e s th o u s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h i s t i m e t o o t h e r e w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t i t w a s

about PRASA?
20

MR MOLEFE:

It w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n a b o u t P R A S A .

I n f a c t it w a s a b o u t

PRASA.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d j u s t b e f o r e M r S o n i h a s a n o t h e r q u e s ti o n , a s a t

t h a t t i m e h o w w a s t h e r e l a t i o n s h ip b e t w e e n th e M i n i s te r a n d th e B o a r d
a s a t t h a t t i m e w h e n s h e to ld y o u a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g th a t h a d t o t a k e
place on the 20th?

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e la t io n s h i p a t t h a t t i m e b e t w e e n t h e B o a r d a n d t h e

M i n is t e r a p p e a r e d t o s til l b e n o r m a l, b u t o f c o u r s e t h e r e w a s a
b e h a v io u r t h a t w a s s tr a n g e a n d t h a t b e h a v io u r c o m e s o u t w h e n w e d e a l
w i t h t h e a p p o i n t m e n t , t h e n e e d to a p p o i n t a G r o u p C E O , s o w e s t a r t
s e e i n g t h is w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e r e s is t a n c e b u t th e M i n i s te r n o t s a y i n g t o
u s I w i ll n o t d o i t , I a c t u a l ly s a y s to m e t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r t h e
w o r k y o u h a v e d o n e , I a m g o in g t o , I h a v e t o t a lk to t h e Pr e s id e n t a b o u t
y o u r i n t e n ti o n t o a p p o i n t t h e G C E , I a m n o t g o i n g t o c h a n g e a n y t h i n g , I
a m g o i n g t o p r e s e n t a s i t c a m e f r o m t h e B o a r d o f D ir e c to r s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

R ig h t , s o t h e m e e ti n g is s c h e d u l e d f o r t h r e e

o ’c l o c k o n t h e 2 0 t h , a m I r ig h t?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t j a .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:

D i d th e m e e ti n g s ta r t a s s c h e d u le d ?

T h e m e e ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n s t a r t e d th r e e h o u r s l a te , I

s t a r t e d a t a b o u t s ix p m , a c t u a l ly w h e n – a t a b o u t t h a t t i m e I h a d s t a r t e d
s a y in g t o t h e M i n is t e r if t h a t i s h o w y o u a r e tr e a t e d i n t h e c a b i n e t b u t
t h e p r e s id e n t c a n a s k fo r a m e e t in g w i t h y o u a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t m a k e s
y o u w a it f o r m o r e t h a n t w o h o u r s , c l o s e o n t o t h r e e h o u r s a n d h e
20

d o e s n ’t s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t w h a t is h a p p e n in g , w h y is k e e p i n g y o u
w a i ti n g .
I a m n o t p r e p a r e d to s i t h e r e i n d e fi n i te ly a n d o f c o u r s e th a t
ti m e I h a d a b i t o f f lu , a n d I s a i d to t h e M i n is t e r y o u s t a y I a m g o in g to
g o h o m e n o w, a n d o f c o u r s e i t w a s a t t h a t p o in t i n t i m e a s I w a s g o i n g
o u t th a t I m e t w i th t h e Pr e s i d e n t i n t h e p a s s a g e , a n d I s a id to h i m M r

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P r e s i d e n t a s y o u s e e h i m , I w a s a c tu a lly g o i n g h o m e , b e c a u s e h e a s k e d
f o r a m e e t in g a t th r e e o ’c l o c k a n d y o u ’r e n o t t h e r e , y o u a r e n o t g iv i n g
u s a n y a p o lo g y.

Of course before that I had been advised that Mr

M o n ta n a w a s s e e n i n t h e p r e m is e c o m in g o u t o f o n e o f th e r o o m s w i th
M r R o y M o o d l e y a n d I t h in k th e y h a d b e e n t a l k i n g to t h e P r e s i d e n t
b e f o r e I m e t h i m i n th e p a s s a g e .
W h a t t h e y w e r e d is c u s s i n g I d o n ’ t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

D u r i n g th e ti m e b e t w e e n t h r e e o ’c lo c k t o a b o u t t h e

ti m e w h e n y o u s a w t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d y o u a n d t h e M i n is t e r b e e n
10

in f o r m e d w h a t th e r e a s o n f o r th e d e l a y w a s , li k e m a y b e t h e P r e s i d e n t
w a s n o t i n t h e p r e m is e s o r a t a n y m e e t in g s , h a d y o u b e e n i n f o r m e d o f
a n y th in g l ik e th a t ?
MR MOLEFE:

W e w e r e g iv e n c o n fl ic ti n g in f o r m a ti o n , h e s a id n o h e i s

fl y i n g f r o m C a p e To w n a n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d s a y h e h a s l a n d e d , s a y
m a y b e a n h o u r a n d a h a l f la t e r o r s o , b u t h e w a s n o t a r r iv i n g a t t h e
m e e ti n g t h a t h e h a d r e q u e s t e d , a n d w e w e r e n o t b e i n g g iv e n a n
e x p l a n a t io n , w h y t h i s l o n g d e la y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
20

N o w y o u t h e n m e e t t h e P r e s id e n t a n d y o u

in d i c a t e y o u w e r e g o i n g t o b e le a v i n g , w h a t w a s h i s r e a c t i o n t o t h a t ?
MR MOLEFE:

H is r e a c ti o n w a s t h a t b u t y o u k n o w I to l d t h e m t o t e l l

y o u t h a t I a m i n C a p e To w n , j a y o u m ig h t h a v e b e e n i n C a p e To w n a n d I
k n e w y o u w o u l d b e in C a p e To w n , b u t y o u s e t u p a m e e ti n g o f t h r e e
o ’c l o c k M r P r e s i d e n t k n o w i n g th a t y o u w o u l d b e i n C a p e To w n o n t h a t
d a y, w e w o u l d h a v e a t le a s t e x p e c te d t h a t s o m e b o d y s h o u l d h a v e

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n o t i fi e d u s t h a t y o u w o u ld b e l a te , a n d t h e n h e s a id w e ll n o w I a m h e r e ,
a n d l e t u s g o b a c k , l e t u s g o t o th e r o o m a n d le t ’s g o a n d m e e t .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

W h e r e w a s t h i s m e e t in g a g a in ?
Th e m e e t i n g w a s a t t h e Pr e s id e n ti a l G u e s th o u s e in

Pretoria.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ffi d a v i t f o u r p e o p le

w e r e p r e s i d e n t a t th is m e e t in g o n t h e 2 0 t h o f A u g u s t, th a t ’s y o u ,
M i n is t e r D i p o a P e t e r s , fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t Z u m a a n d M i n is t e r J e ff
10

R a d e b e , o r w e r e th e r e o t h e r p e o p l e t h e r e a s w e ll ?
MR MOLEFE:

I n i t ia ll y th a t w a s w h a t w e u n d e r s t a n d , w e u n d e r s t o o d t o

b e t h e in d i v i d u a ls w h o a r e g o i n g to b e p a r ti c i p a n ts i n th a t m e e ti n g , b u t
o f c o u r s e la t e r o n it t u r n e d o u t th a t M r M o n ta n a , w h o h a p p e n e d to
. . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] b y t h e B o a r d o f D ir e c to r s o f P R A S A h a d a l s o b e e n in v i t e d
in t o t h e m e e t i n g , to t h e m e e t in g . W e d id n o t k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h a t .
T h e M i n is t e r a n d I d id n o t e v e n k n o w w h a t w o u ld b e t h e d e t a il s
o f o u r d i s c u s s io n s s a v e t h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o d i s c u s s P R A S A . N o w th e r e
a r e f o r m a l w a y s i n w h ic h r e p o r ts a r e g iv e n t o t h e M i n i s t e r a n d / o r t h e
G o v e r n m e n t b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d g iv e s q u a r t e r l y r e p o r ts a b o u t t h e w o r k
20

o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d i ts p e r fo r m a n c e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e k e y
p e r f o r m a n c e in d ic a t o r s a n d k e y p e r f o r m a n c e a r e a s i d e n t if i e d a n d t h e s e
w o u ld h a v e b e e n i d e n ti f ie d i n t h e B o a r d ’s C h a r t e r i n f o r m e d o f c o u r s e b y
t h e m a n d a t e o f th e c o m p a n y a l s o a n d t h e y o p e r a t e a c o r p o r a t e p l a n o f
t h e c o m p a n y.

W e w o u l d g i v e a d h o c r e p o r ts i f t h e r e a r e t h in g s t h a t t h e

M i n is t e r n e e d s t o k n o w a b o u t a n d th e y h a p p e n i n b e t w e e n t h e q u a r t e r ly

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
r e p o r t , s o th is o n e w e d i d n ’ t k n o w w h a t it s f o c u s w a s g o i n g t o b e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A s I u n d e r s t a n d n o w th e f o u r o f y o u w e r e t h e r e a t

t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e m e e t in g a n d M r M o n ta n a j o i n e d a l i tt l e l a t e r.
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t Mr M o n ta n a j o i n e d b u t l e t m e s a y t h a t

p r i o r to th a t m e e t in g , I w a n t t o d r a w o u r a t te n ti o n t o t h i s a g a in
C h a ir p e r s o n ,

Mr

Montana

had

started

making

p u b li c

s t a te m e n ts

a n n o u n c i n g th a t h e is w i lli n g t o r e t u r n t o . . . [i n d is t in c t ] P R A S A i f t h e
M i n is t e r r e q u i r e d h i m t o d o s o , o r th e M in is te r a n d t h e B o a r d r e q u ir e d
him to do so.
10

H e w a lk e d a w a y, w e tr ie d t o p e r s u a d e h i m t o s a y, n o w

s u d d e n l y h e s a y s h e w a n ts to r e tu r n a n d th e n p u b li c a ll y, o n a p u b l ic
p l a t fo r m h e w a n ts to r e t u r n c o n d i ti o n a l u p o n h i m s e r v in g u n d e r a
d i ff e r e n t B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s a n d a t t h a t t i m e a ls o t h e e n v ir o n m e n t w a s –
c o n ta in e d a l o t o f o t h e r c a m p a ig n s b y g r o u p in g s I r e f e r to a p e r s o n
c a l l e d S t e p h e n S a n g w e n e , w h o w a s m o b i l is i n g , h e c a l le d h i m s e l f – h e
s a i d h e w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t o f a t h i n g c a l le d C o m m u t e r s A s s o c i a ti o n b u t
o f c o u r s e y o u c a n ’ t s a y w h o is a m e m b e r o f t h a t o r g a n is a ti o n , b u t h e
w a s t h e P r e s id e n t a n d w a s b e i n g g iv e n m o n e y f o r t h a t a n d w a s
m o b i li s i n g u n e m p l o y e d y o u th i n th e to w n s h i p s a n d o f c o u r s e t h e y s a i d
it ’s g o o d b e c a u s e h e c a n u s e t h e m to p r o te c t t h e tr a i n s , t o p a tr o l th e

20

r a i l w a y tr a c k s a n d s o o n .

T h a t s o - c a ll e d c o m m u t e r a s s o c ia t io n w o u l d

t h e n i s s u e p u b li c s t a t e m e n ts s a y i n g t h a t th e y w a n t M r M o n ta n a to
r e tu r n , t h a t i f h e d o e s n ’t r e t u r n w e s h o u l d k n o w t h a t y o u k n o w th e r e w i ll
b e n o s ta b ili t y.
O f c o u r s e in p r e c e d i n g m e e t i n g s b e t w e e n Mr S a n g w e n e a n d
o n e o f m y d ir e c t o r s , M s M k la l a , b e c a u s e I c o u ld n o t a t te n d t h a t

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
m e e ti n g , h e o p e n l y s a i d th a t i f y o u d o n ’t b r i n g Mr M o n t a n a b a c k y o u r
tr a i n s a r e g o i n g t o b u r n .

W e ll w e m a d e n o b i g d e a l o f t h a t b u t I a m

s a y in g t h is t o d e m o n s tr a t e h o w th e e n v ir o n m e n t w a s p o l l u te d a l r e a d y
a n d th e n y o u h a v e o f c o u r s e t h is S ATAW U o f M r Za n z o M h l a n g u a ls o
is s u i n g p u b l ic s t a t e m e n t i n t h a t r e g a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w I w a n t e d t o a s k y o u t h is e a r l ie r, y o u h a v e s a i d

fr o m ti m e t o ti m e t h a t a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e M r M o n t a n a b e g a n to is s u e
p u b lic s t a te m e n ts i n s o m e o f w h ic h , a s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e , b u t
y o u m u s t c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g , h e s e e m e d t o a t ta c k th e B o a r d a n d
10

t o a t t a c k y o u . I w a n t t o fi n d o u t w h e th e r t h a t b e g a n b e fo r e t h e B o a r d
a s k e d h i m t o l e a v e o n th e 1 5 t h o f J u l y o r t h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r h e h a d
le f t , a f t e r t h e 1 5 t h o f J u l y ?
MR MOLEFE:

I t b e g a n b e f o r e th e B o a r d a s k e d h i m t o l e a v e , i f t h a t is

b e f o r e t h e 1 5 t h o f J u l y C h a i r p e r s o n , a n d i n fa c t I m u s t s a y t h a t i n o n e
o f t h e p u b l ic a ti o n s th e r e w a s a v e r y e x p e n s iv e a r tic le , a g a i n t h a t w a s i n
t h e F i n a n c i a l M a i l, w h ic h k in d o f a r ti c l e t h e F i n a n c i a l M a i l w o u l d n o t
p u b lis h u n le s s i t w a s p a id f o r, s e v e r a l p a g e s w h ic h w e a s k e d M r
M o n ta n a to e x p l a i n a n d h e c o n fir m e d t h a t h e s a id t h e t h i n g t h a t w e r e
b e i n g s a id in t h a t a r ti c l e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h i s w a s n o w, t h is a r tic l e w a s p u b li s h e d b e f o r e

t h e 1 5 t h o f J u ly ?
MR MOLEFE:

I t w a s b e fo r e t h e 1 5 t h o f J u ly, th e r e s t o f J u l y w e h a d n o

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h Mr M o n t a n a r e a ll y, w e w o u l d h a v e n o b a s is to h o l d h i m
a c c o u n t a b l e to P R A S A .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . S o b u t t h e s e a t t a c k s b y h i m i n t h e m e d ia

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
o n t h e B o a r d a n d t h e v a r i o u s s t a t e m e n ts d i d th e y o c c u r b e tw e e n t h e
3 1 s t M a r c h , . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] b e t w e e n th e 3 1 s t o f M a r c h a n d th e 1 5 t h a n d
m a y b e c o n t in u e d b e y o n d o r d i d t h e y s ta r t e v e n b e f o r e t h e 3 1 s t o f M a r c h
w h e n h is c o n tr a c t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
MR MOLEFE:

T h e y d i d n o t s t a r t b e f o r e t h e 3 1 s t o f M a r c h C h a ir p e r s o n ,

t h e y s ta r t e d a f t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

A f t e r o k a y. A n d d i d th e y c o n t i n u e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
T h e y c o n t i n u e d , t h e y c o n ti n u e d , I m e a n i n t h e la t t e r

p e r i o d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s , b e c a m e m o r e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
. . . t h e y m a n i f e s t e d th e m s e l v e s i n s o c i a l m e d i a , Tw i t te r s

a n d F a c e b o o k a n d s o o n , b u t i t w a s c o n t in u i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

T h is . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] M r M o n t a n a ’s le t t e r t o y o u is

d a t e d t h e 1 5 t h o f M a r c h a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , t e ll in g y o u t h a t h e i s g o i n g
t o l e a v e a t t h e e n d o f M a r c h b u t w o u l d s e r v e a s i x m o n th p e r io d o f
n o t ic e .
MR MOLEFE:

W e l l I w o u ld i m a g i n e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR MOLEFE:

. . . b e c a u s e I c a n ’ t – I w a s n o t l o o k i n g . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s w e l o o k e d a t t h a t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

Ye s , w e l o o k e d a t t h a t .
.. . b u t I k n o w i t w a s in M a r c h , i t w a s b e f o r e th e 2 1 s t

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I a m t r y i n g t o g e t t o s o m e t h i n g M r M o l e f e . Yo u

a c c e p t o n t h e 1 s t o f A p r i l t h a t is y o u r l e t te r to M r M o n t a n a .

Page 90 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

T h a t w e a c c e p t a n d t h e s ix m o n t h p e r i o d is

c o n d i ti o n a l u p o n o u r n o t f i n d in g s o m e b o d y a s a r e p l a c e m e n t f o r y o u .
T h a t ’s w h a t y o u r l e t te r t o h i m o f t h e 1 s t o f A p r il s a id .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w I a m ju s t ta k i n g u p a th e m e r a is e d b y t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n a s to t h e ti m e w h e n t h is s t a r t e d , th e a c c u m u la t io n s b y M r
M o n ta n a a g a i n s t y o u a n d t h e B o a r d , d i d it s t a r t s o o n a f te r y o u a c c e p t e d
h is r e s i g n a ti o n ?
10

MR MOLEFE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , i t s t a r t e d s o o n a f t e r t h a t

a n d s o o n a ft e r w e h a d i m p o s e d t h o s e r e s tr i c ti o n s o n h i m a n d a ft e r w e
asked

him

to

w i th d r a w

as

the

C h a ir p e r s o n

of

th e

Boards

of

S u b s id ia r i e s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

C o m i n g b a c k n o w t o th e m e e ti n g w h e n y o u h e a r d

t h a t Mr M o n t a n a a n d Mr M o o d l e y h a d l e f t th e m e e t i n g r o o m w h a t w a s
y o u r r e a c t i o n t o t h a t?
MR MOLEFE:

W e l l C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s , I w a s s u r p r i s e d t h a t t h e y w o u ld

h a v e h a d th e o p p o r t u n i ty t o m e e t w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t a n d g iv e n
p r e f e r e n c e t o t h e M i n i s t e r a n d t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d o f P R A S A ,
20

a n d h i m a c t u a ll y h a v i n g n o s t a n d in g in P R A S A a n y m o r e b e c a u s e h e h a d
le f t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e I ta k e i t t h a t y o u th o u g h t a l o n g t h o s e li n e s

o n ly b e c a u s e y o u t o o k i t th a t t h e d i s c u s s io n th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t m i g h t
h a v e h a d w i t h th e m r e la t e d t o P R A S A .
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t is tr u e C h a i r a n d I w o u ld n o t h a v e k n o w n a n d I

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
d o n ’t k n o w m u c h a b o u t w h a t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , w h a t t h e y d is c u s s e d .

. . . th e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n d is c u s s i n g n o w.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

B u t o f c o u r s e a f u r th e r i m p l ic a t i o n w h e t h e r i t

r e g is t e r e d w i th y o u o r n o t w a s t h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t , f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t , h a d
in fa c t d e la y e d m e e t i n g y o u w h il e h e w a s i n f a c t m e e t in g t h e C E O o f
t h e B o a r d t o g e t h e r w i t h a c o n tr a c to r.
MR MOLEFE:
10

Th a t is s o C h a ir p e r s o n b u t a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e i t w a s

n o t a b i g i s s u e fo r d is c u s s i o n b u t i t w a s a c o n c e r n t h a t c o n t i n u e d t o
r e g is t e r i n m y m in d a n d i t b e c a m e e v e n m o r e s o w h e n t h e Pr e s i d e n t
a ft e r h e h a d – w e h a d h a d a d is c u s s i o n , t h e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t , th e
M i n is t e r i n t h e Pr e s i d e n c y a n d I , h a d h a d a d i s c u s s i o n w i th h i m , h e
s u d d e n l y s a i d I h a v e i n v i t e d t h a t b o y, L u c k y, t o j o i n u s , s o i t w a s ju s t
s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s s p r u n g o n u s , a n d a s h e w a s s a y i n g s o h e a s k e d
t h e M in is t e r i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y t o c a l l h i m .

I d id s a y C h a i r p e r s o n

p r e c e d in g t h a t p a r t o f th e m e e ti n g a n d w h e n t h e r e w e r e j u s t fo u r o f u s
w i t h o u t M r M o n ta n a I a s k e d t h e Pr e s i d e n t t o e x p l a i n to m e t h e k i n d o f
p r o t o c o l t h a t h e w a s u s i n g in – h e u s e d in c o n v e n in g t h a t m e e ti n g , a n d
20

I h a v e a l s o a l r e a d y e x p l a i n e d w h a t is t h e a n s w e r th a t I g o t fr o m t h e
President.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w b e f o r e M r – b e fo r e t h e P r e s id e n t s a i d I h a v e

in v i te d – y o u s a id h e s a i d I in v i t e d t h a t b o y, w a s t h a t h o w h e p u t i t ?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

CHAIRPERSON:

That is how he put it.

Page 92 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s s o .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

M e a n in g Mr M o n t a n a ?

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

CHAIRPERSON:

B e fo r e h e s a i d t h a t t e ll m e a b o u t th e d is c u s s i o n th a t

h a p p e n e d b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f , th e M in is t e r, M i n is t e r D i p a u P e t e r s a n d t h e
P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e M i n is t e r in t h e P r e s i d e n c y, i s th e r e a n y th in g o f
s ig n if ic a n c e y o u w a n t t o t e l l m e a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d , w h a t d is c u s s io n s
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MOLEFE:
10

W e d i d n o t h a v e a n y d is c u s s i o n s s a v e f o r m e r a i s i n g

t h is q u e s ti o n o f p r o t o c o l , w e d i d n ’ t a d i s c u s s i o n t h a t m e a n t , a
d is c u s s io n s u b s t a n t iv e l y w e r e g o i n g t o s t a r t w h e n M r M o n t a n a is i n th e
m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w i n y o u r a ff id a v it y o u m e n ti o n e d a r e f e r e n c e

t o t h e d o c u m e n t c a ll e d P R A S A i n Tu r m o il .
MR MOLEFE:

I d o s ir, C h a i r p e r s o n .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y o u m e a n b e f o r e M r M o n ta n a c a m e i n ?

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

A n d w a s t h e r e a d is c u s s io n a b o u t t h e d o c u m e n t?

B e f o r e Mr M o n ta n a c a m e i n .

O k a y.
T h e r e w a s a d is c u s s i o n o n t h e d o c u m e n t b u t I th i n k i t

a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d w h e n M r M o n ta n a w a s t h e r e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o r r y.

O k a y.

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A lr ig h t , s o v e r y li t tl e t o o k p la c e b e f o r e M r

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
M o n ta n a w a s c a ll e d i n ?
MR MOLEFE:

Ve r y l it t le y e s C h a ir p e r s o n .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

And when Mr Montana came in what happened

then?
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n t h e m e e ti n g r e a l l y – t h a t’s w h e n t h e m e e t i n g

r e a l ly s t a r te d .
MR MOLEFE:

W h e n t h e m e e ti n g s t a r t e d t h e p u r p o s e fo r t h e m e e ti n g

w a s e x p l a i n e d b y M i n i s te r J e ff R a d e b e , h e s a id t h a t h e h a d b e e n – w e l l
h e s t a r ts o ff r e a l ly b y p a i n ti n g o r a t t e m p ti n g t o p a i n t a p ic t u r e a b o u t
10

w h a t c h a r a c te r I a m , h e s ta r t s o ff b y s a y in g I tr i e d t o g e t C o m r a d e P o p o
M o le f e t o c o m e a n d m e e t w i th th e P r e s id e n t , I t o l d h i m t h a t th e
P r e s i d e n t w a n te d h i m , a n d I s e n t m y s e c r e t a r y to s a y s o t o h is
s e c r e t a r y a n d h i s s e c r e ta r y to l d my s e c r e t a r y t h a t h e is o n l e a v e
p l a y in g g o l f i n K n y s n a a n d h e w o u l d n ’ t c o m e .

Saying of course that I

a m o n le a v e a n d I w ill n o t b r e a k my le av e n o w b e ca u se I me a n , n o b o d y
te lls me th a t th e r e is , th e r e w ill b e tr a in s ma s h if th e me e tin g d o e s n o t
h a p p e n d u r in g my le a v e .

So , a n d a ls o , I h a v e a lr e a d y in d ic a te d th e

u n c o nv e n tio n a l ma n n er in w h ic h th e me e tin g w a s b e in g c on v e ne d . So , it
is n o t th a t , b u t b a s ic a lly h e is s a y ing lo o k h e r e is th is g u y h e is me r e ly
20

th e C h a ir ma n o f th e Bo a r d o f Co n tr o l o f PR ASA.

W h e n I te ll h im th e

Pr e s id e n t, th e H e a d o f S ta te , w a n ts h im h e d o e s n o t ta k e my c o mme n ts
s e r io us ly. So , I ju s t ig n o r e d th a t I w a n te d t o w a it to h e a r if th e Pr e s id e n t
w a s g o in g to s a y a n y th ing a b o u t it a n d h e d id n o t. H a v in g s a id th a t h e –
h e th e n s a id th a t h e h a d a tte mp te d to h a v e a d is cu ss io n w ith me an d Mr
Mo n ta n a a n d th e Min is te r o f Tr a n s p or t [in te r v e n es ].

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th is is n o w th e Pr e s id en t o r Min is te r R a d e b e s a y in g

th a t?
MR MO LEFE:

I t is th e n Mr R a d e b e s a y in g th a t. H e is ta lk in g a b o u t w h a t

th e y h a d b e e n d is c us s ing e ls e w h er e . H e s a y s n o w e h a d a me e tin g o f th e
N a tio n a l Ex e c u tiv e C o mmitte e a n d a t th a t me e tin g I h a d h o p e d to a s k to
g e t Min is te r D ip u o Pe te r s to g e t C h a ir man o f th e Bo a r d a n d C o mr a d e
Po p o a n d L u c k y to c o me a n d me e t w ith u s b e c a u s e w e w e r e c o nc e rn e d
a b o u t th e p u b lic ’s s p ec , a b o u t w h a t w a s g o in g o n in th e me d ia .
So , s o h e w e n t o n l ik e th a t a n d th e n th e Min is te r o f Tr a n s p o r t
10

s a ys w e ll ja y o u a tte mp te d th a t b u t I to ld y o u , y o u Mr R ad e b e me b e ing
Min is te r D ip u o Pe te r s th a t y o u s h o u ld r e ig n in Mr Mo n ta n a te ll h im to s to p
ma k in g p u b lic s ta te me n ts w h ic h a r e b r ing ing PR ASA in to d is r e p u te a n d I
a s k ed y o u b ec a us e y o u a re c lo s e to h im h e w o r ke d u n d er y o u .
Be c a u s e a t th a t p o in t Mr. R a d e be s a id n o I a c tu a lly Mr Mon ta n a
is n o t c lo s e to me . Th e p e r s o n w h o is c lose r to me lik e th a n Mr Mo n ta n a
c lo s e to me is C o mr a d e Po p o Mo le fe . I me a n w e n t w ith h im to Bo ts w a n a
w e h a d w e w e r e th er e a n d w ith Pr es id e n t of Bo ts w a n a a n d o th e r p eo p le .
It w a s n ic e , y o u k n ow, I w a s w ith h im in ja il s o h e s a ys a ll o f th a t in
r e s p on s e to w h a t th e Min is te r h a d s a id – s a y s , h a d a s k e d h im.

20

So ,

ma y b e I s h o u ld le t c o u n se l le a d me .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

W h a t h a p p e n e d th e n in s o fa r a s th e p u rp o se o f th e

me e tin g n a me ly to g e t y o u a n d Mr Mo n ta n a c lo s e r to g e th er th a t is w h a t I
u n d e rs ta n d th e p u r p os e o f th e me e tin g w a s .
MR MO LEFE:

We ll ma y b e b e fo r e e v en th a t th e Min is te r s ta te d , Min is te r

o f Tr a ns p o r t s ta te d th a t, Mr Mo n ta n a h a d r e s ig n e d a n d th e Bo a r d h a d

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
a c c ep te d th a t it is n o t lik e th a t it is a n is s u e n o w th a t h e s h o u ld ac ce p t
th a t th e Bo a r d h a s ma d e its d e c is io n a n d th a t it w a s imp o r ta n t to h im to
a v o id p e rs o n a liz in g th e s e ma tte r s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

N o w, ju s t to g o b a c k

[in te r v e n e s ].

Be fo r e w e a n d th e n o f c o u rse th e Pr e s id en t a ls o re p e a te d

w h a t Mr J e ff R a d e b e s a id . So , I th in k h e s a id h e w a s h e h a d in o n a s ta te
v is it to th e Pe o p le ’s Re p u b lic o f C h in a a n d h e go t r e p or ts th a t tw o
me mb e r s o f h is p a r ty we r e h av in g a p u b lic sp a t a b o u t e a c h o th e r a n d th a t
is ma tte r th a t c o n c er n e d h im an d th a t me mb e r s o f th e Na tio n a l Ex e cu tiv e
10

C o mmitte e w e r e a ls o wo r r ied a b o u t it a n d th a t is w hy h e ha s as k ed u s to
me e t.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

N o w ju s t ta k in g Mr D ip u o , Min is te r D ip u o Pe te r s’

r e a c tio n he s ay s bu t lo o k Mr Mo n ta na s h ou ld a c ce p t th a t h e r e s ign e d a nd
th e Bo a r d a cc e p te d h is re s ig na tio n th a t is h o w sh e p u t it.

Bu t th a t is

in c o n s is te n t w ith w ha t s h e ha d sa id to y ou a fe w w e ek s e a r lier. Sh e h a d
s a id b u t lo ok yo u s ho u ld h av e be fo r e ac c e p tin g th e r es ig n a tio n yo u
s h o u ld h av e d isc u ss e d w ith me .
MR MO LEFE:

I d o n o t d is p u te th a t it is in c o n s is te n t, b u t o f c o ur s e in th e

me e tin g s h e d id a lso s ay th a t s h e w as in fo r me d a fte r th e fa c t a fte r th e
20

Bo a r d h a d d e c ide d . So , [in te r v e n e s ].
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

D is ta n c in g h e rs e lf fr o m th e d e c is io n .

Th a t is c o r r e c t. So , th a t w a s – th a t w a s h e r p o s itio n b u t

a t th a t p o in t I th in k a ls o th e r e w a s a n o th er ma tte r.

C o u n s e l r e fe r to a

d o c u me n t c a lle d a PR ASA in tu r mo il.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , b e fo r e y o u – yo u ta lk a b o u t it if y o u in te n t ta lk in g

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
a b o u t it. I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r I fo llo w th e p r o p os itio n th a t w h a t Min is te r
D ip u o Pe te r s s a id , a t th e me e t in g is in c o n s is te n t w ith h e r e a r lie r a t titu d e .
As I s e e it is p o s s ib le th a t it is in c o n s is te n t b u t it is p o s s ib le
th a t it is n o t in c o n s is te n t b e c a us e a s I un d e r s ta nd y o ur e v id e nc e s he
ma k e s s ta te me n ts s u g g es tin g th a t s h e th o u g h t y o u s h o u ld h a v e c o n s u lte d
h e r b e fo re a cc e p tin g th e – a cc e p tin g th e r e s ig na tio n in q u o tes o f Mr
Montana b u t i t ma y b e th a t o n c e Mr Mo n ta n a h a d le ft s h e w a s a t p e a c e
w ith th e fa c t th a t r ig h tly o r w r o n g ly h e w a s g o n e a n d if th a t is th e p o s itio n
it ma y b e th a t th e r e fo r e h e r s a y in g a t th e me e tin g o f 2 0 Au g u s t
10

Mr Mo n ta n a mu s t a c ce p t th a t h e is g o n e , ma y b e it is n o t in c o ns is te n t b u t
it mig h t b e in c o n s is te n t w ith th e e ar lier a ttitu d e w h ic h ma y h a v e
s u g g es te d th a t s h e mig h t h a ve w ish e d to b e c o n s u lte d be fo r e . I ju s t w a n t
to ma k e s u r e [in te r v e ne s ].
MR MO LEFE:

Th e la t te r – th e la tte r is w h a t I [in te r v e n e s ].

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MO LEFE:

Is

Is w h a t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t.
what

I

was

ta lk in g

a b o u t.

It

is

in c o n s is te n t

... [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MO LEFE:
20

W ith th e in itia l ... [in te r v e n e s ].

W ith th e in itia l p o s itio n b e ca u s e th is time n ow, s he s ee m

to h a v e a c c ep te d th e d e c is io n o f th e Bo a r d a n d o f c o u r se w e h a d a lr e ad y
a t th a t time h a d d is c us s io ns .

I h a v e h a d d is c us s ion s w ith th e Min is te r

a b o u t it a n d th e Min is te r w a s v e r y c le a r tha t th e Bo a r d w a s n o t to a b o u t
to r e v e rs e .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s , o k a y.

So , s h e k n e w th e n th a t th a t w a s th e c a s e th e n o f c o u rs e

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
w e h a d wr itte n a d e ta ile d r e p o r t to h e r s e ttin g o u t to h e r a n u mb e r o f r e s p on d in g to a n u mb e r o f q u e s tio n s s h e h a d a s k ed to h e r le t te r to th e
Bo a r d . So , a t th a t me e tin g , I th in k , s h e h a d a c c e p te d .
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, th a n k y o u .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d y o u w e r e o b v io us ly w e lco me d h e r in te rv e n tio n

a t th a t le v e l w h e r e th is w as n ow a fa ir c o mp a ny,

b o th PR ASA a n d

Mr Mo n ta n a h a s mo v e d in th e ir s e pa r a te w ay s ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is – th a t is c o r r ec t, C h a ir p e rs o n .

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
10

W h a t is th e Pr es id e n t’s a ttitu d e , th e fo r me r

Pr e s id e n t Zu ma ’s a ttitu d e to a ll o f th is ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e th r e a d o f d is c u s s io n o f th e p r e s id e n t to o k in th a t

me e tin g b y th r e a d I me a n t- h - r - e -a - d . Was th a t [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is T n o t te a .

N o t a te a – n o t a te a .

Wa s a lo n g th e lin e s in w ha t

Mr Mo n ta n a h a d b e e n s a y in g in h is Pu b lic s ta te me n t th a t is a v a ila b le if
th e Min is te r w a n ts h im b a c k a n d th e Bo a r d w a n t h im, h e is w illin g to c o me
back.
Bu t o f c o u r s e h e w as a ls o c o n tr ad ic tin g h ims e lf b e c a us e h e
w a n te d to ma k e a c o n d itio n o f h is r e tu r n th e fa c t th a t th is Bo a r d th a t h e
20

d id n o t lik e s h o u ld n o t b e th e r e . So th e Pr e s id e n t s a ys th is y o u n g ma n is
v e ry e x p e r ien c ed , h e is k n o w le d g e a b le o n R o llin g Sto c k a n d R a il ma t te r s ,
h e h a s go t th e s k ills th a t th e c o un tr y n e ed s a n d in my v iew h e sh o u ld n o t
b e lo s t to th e c o u n tr y th a t s o me s o lu tio n s ho u ld b e fo u n d to a llo w h im to
c o n tin u e to p ly o u t h is s k ills , to u s e h is s k ills in th is imp o r ta n t
o r g a n iz a tio n th a t is s e r v in g th e b e s t in te r es t o f c o mmu te r s in o u r c o u n tr y.

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S SO N I SC :
MR MO LEFE:

An d w h a t w a s th e s o lu tio n h e w a s s u g ge s tin g ?

Th e s o lu tio n h e w a s s u g ge stin g w a s th a t th e d e c is io n b e

r e v iew e d .
C H A IR PER SO N :

An d w h a t w a s th a t d e c is io n th a t h e w a s s u g g e s tin g

s h o u ld b e r ev ie we d ?
MR MO LEFE:

It w a s th a t th e Bo a r d h a d a cc e p te d th a t, r e le as e d

Mr Mo n ta n a s o y o u no w ch a n g e it to s a y c ome b a c k Mr Mo n ta na . So th e
Bo a r d s ho u ld th e n r e c ed e its d ec is ion , b u t th is is a me e tin g o f th e AN C
w h ic h mea n s I mu s t no w g o a n d s a y to th e Bo a r d o f D ir ec to rs I w a s in a
10

me e tin g o f my p a r ty, my p a r ty s a y s th a t th e d e c is io n th a t th e Bo a r d o f –
th e Bo a r d o f C on tr o l o f PR ASA to o k in r e le a s in g Mr Mo n ta n a s h o u ld b e
r e v iew e d . N o w, th is is a n u n te n a b le p o s itio n th e r e is n o w a y in w h ic h o n e
c a n ju s tify th a t b e c au s e th is is th e r e sh ou ld b e a d is tin c t s ep a r a te –
s e p a ra tio n o f r o le s a n d p o w er s b e tw ee n th e p a r ty, th e Sta te a n d in th is
in s ta n c e th e Sta te b e in g r e p r e se n te d b y its o r g a n c a lled PR ASA.
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

An d h o w d id y o u r e s po n d w h e n th e Pr e s id en t, w h e n

th e fo r me r Pr e s id e n t Zu ma ma d e th a t s u g g es tio n ?
C H A IR PER SO N :

Yo u r v o ic e a g a in Mr So n i.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :
20

C H A IR PER SO N :

O h , s o r r y, s o r ry.

R a is e it.

A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Ye s , h o w d id y o u r es p o n d w h e n fo r mer Pr e s ide n t

Zu ma s a id th e Bo a r d s h o u ld co n s ide r r es c ind in g its d e c is io n .
MR MO LEFE:

My r e s p o ns e to th e Pr es ide n t, C h a ir p e rs o n w a s th a t I

c a n n o t ma k e a c o mmitme n t in a p r iv a te me e tin g a b o u t a ma t te r th a t w a s
d e c id e d by th e Bo a r d o f C o n tr o l.

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
I d id n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h a t th e Pr e s id e n t’s p ro b le m w a s e v e n a fte r
I h a d lis te n e d to h im, a n d I s a id to h im,
“Mr Mo n ta n a d id n o t h a v e a li fe time c o n tr a c t. H e h a d
a c o n tr a c t fo r a limite d p e r io d .Th a t p e r io d a r r iv ed , h e
s a id h e d id n o t w an t a n e x ten s io n . Th e Bo ar d a g re e s
w ith h im a n d p er s ua d e h im to wo r k w ith it, h e b e g ins
c a mp a ig ns a g a in s t th e Bo a r d a n d h is c a mp aig n s w e r e
n o lo n g e r s e r v ing th e p u r p o s e fo r w h ic h t h e Bo a r d
w a n te d h im to s ta y.
10

Th e r e fo r e , Mr Pr e s id e n t, I

c a n n o t a g r e e w ith y o u , b u t I a m h a p p y to c o n v e ne a
Bo a r d me e tin g s o th a t y o u c a n a d d r e s s th e Bo a r d
a n d e x p la in to th e m w h a t is y o u r p r o b le m w ith th e
d e c is ion th a t th e Bo a r d h a s ta k e n .
O f c o u r se , I mu s t s a y th a t th is is , in it w as th e ta il e n d o f th e me e tin g .
We h a d n o t y e t d e a lt w ith w h a t Mr Mo n ta n a d id in th e me e tin g .
C H A IR PER SO N :

Ye s , w e ll I w a n t to h e a r a lo t a b o u t th e d isc u ss io n

b e c a us e I th in k th a t me e tin g a n d th e d is c u s s io n ma y b e v e r y imp o r ta n t
a n d fr o m y o u r a ffid a v it I k n o w th e me e tin g t o o k q u ite lo n g b e ca u se I th in k
y o u s a id it e n d e d a t tw o a . m. s o th e r e mu s t b e a lo t th a t w a s d is c u ss e d
20

a b o u t PR ASA a ffa ir s . So , if y o u c a n te ll, t e ll me mo r e a n d Mr So n i ca r ry
o n , c a n in d ic a te a r e as .
MR MO LEFE:

Bu t fr o m my s id e I h a v e a lr e a dy c o v er e d a lo t th a t I

n e e d e d to c o ve r ( In te r ve n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s .

My a tti tu d e in th a t me e tin g w a s th a t I w a s n o t g o in g to

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
fo llo w a ll th r ills me n tio n e d in s p e ec h es a n d s o o n . I w a s mo r e in te r es te d
in w h a t is th e d e c is io n o f th e Bo a r d , w h a t w a s th e b a s is fo r th a t d e c is io n ,
a n d th a t th e Bo a r d ca n ’t, I c a n ’t c h a n ge th a t d e c is io n o f th e b o a r d a n d I
d id

so

a d v is e d ly,

C h a ir p e rs o n

b e c au s e

Mr

Mo n ta n a

had

a lr e a d y

th r e a te n e d to ta k e th e Bo a r d to C o ur t to c h a lle n g e its d e c is io n s o in th a t
me e tin g I s a id , I a m d e a lin g o n ly w ith th e fa c t th a t th e ma n ’s c o n tr a c t h a s
e x p ir ed , th e y a s k e d h im to s ta y o n , h e a g r ee d .
H e s ta r te d w o r k in g a g a ins t th e p u r p o s e fo r w h ic h h e w a s b e in g
a s k ed to s ta y a n d w e h a d to r e le a s e h im a n d th a t fo r me w a s th e mo s t
10

imp o r ta n t th in g a n d e v e ry o th e r th in g th a t h e s a y s h e is g o in g to
c h a lle n g e , h e is g o in g to , w e w ill w a it fo r th a t a n d I d id s a y in th e me e tin g
I a m n o t g o in g to r e s p o n d to th e ma n y th in g s th a t Mr Mo n ta n a h a s s a id , I
w ill r e s p o nd w h e n w e g o to C o ur t o n th o s e ma tte r s .
A D V VA S SO N I SC :

Yo u s a y th a t y o u w o u ld r e s p o nd to th e ma n y th in g s

th a t Mr Mo n ta n a s a id . Ar e y o u s a y in g a t th e me e tin g ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th e th in g s h e s a id a t th e me e tin g , in a n d o u ts id e th a t

me e tin g . In p u b lic d o ma in . May b e w e sh o uld c o me b ac k q u ick ly an d ta lk
a b o u t Mr Mo n ta n a .
I w ill n o t b e a b le to d e a l w ith th e d e ta ils o f w h a t h e s a id . Sa fe
20

to s a y th a t w h a t b e c a me a p pa r e n t to th e Min is te r o f Tr a n sp o r t a n d I, a n d
me , w a s th a t w h e r ea s we d id n o t k no w th e, th e o b je c tiv e o f th e me e tin g
a n d d e ta ils w h a t w e w e r e g o ing to b e d e a lin g w ith e x c e p t th a t it is a
d is c us s ion a b o u t PR ASA . Mr Mo n ta n a a p p e a r e d to h a v e b e e n th o r o u g h ly
b r ie fe d a n d h a d pr e p ar e d a lo n g re p o r t for th a t me e tin g w h ich to me it
a p p e a re d th a t h e h a d d is c u s se d it w ith th e Min is te r in th e P r e s id e n cy

Page 101 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
a n d th e Pr e s id e n t a n d th e y w a n te d h im to p r e s e n t th a t r e p o r t in o u r
me e tin g w ith th e Pr e s id e n t.
It w a s a v er y lon g re p o r t a nd it is th is o ne th a t I r e fe r to a s
PR ASA in Tu r mo il w h ic h w a s pr e ce d e d by a p r o v is ion , a s e c tio n o f th e
Ma n a g e me n t R e po r t to th e Bo a r d o f D ir ec to r s h e ld d u r in g th e mo n th o f
Ma y

w h en

th o s e

ma ny

d e mon s tr a tio ns

were

ta k in g

p lac e

at

th e

h e a d q u ar te r s o f PR ASA b u t th e me e tin g w a s e ls ew h e re a t a h o te l c a lle d
N ic h o l, b u t it is a h o te l o n W illia m N ic h o l, ja .

N o w Mr Mo n ta n a w a s

a llo w e d to s p e ak . H e s p o k e fo r a v e ry lo n g time , a v e r y lo n g time .
10

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

We , w e le f t th e me e tin g a t 2 o ’c lo ck in th e mo r n in g .

C H A IR PER SO N :
MR MO LEFE:

Ar e y o u a b le to e s tima te ?

H a v in g s ta r te d a t a r o u nd 6 p .m. th e p r e v io u s d ay ?

It s ta r te d a t a r o u n d s ix th e p r e v io us d a y in th e e v e n in g .

Th e lio n ’s s h a r e o f th a t d a y w a s th a t o f Mr Mo n ta n a .

M in is te r D ip u o it

Pe te r s s a id q u ite a n u mb e r o f th in g s a s w e ll, b u t th e e s s e n c e o f th e
p r e s en ta tio n o f Mr Mo n ta n a w a s th a t h e is w o r k in g w ith a Bo a r d o f
D ir e c tor s th a t d o e s n o t h a v e a g o o d re la tio ns h ip w ith h im.
It s o me time s c o n ve n es me e tin g s w ith o u t y o u kn o w th e in c o mmitte e me e tin g s o f n o n - e x e cu tiv e D ire c to r s w ith o u t in v o lv in g h im.
20

N o w th e C ha ir ma n o f th e Bo a r d , h a lf th e time w h e n h e c o nv e n es th e
me e tin g h e d o e s no t p la n th e a g e n d a pr o p erly w ith th e g r o u p ’s C EO . I d o
n o t k n o w h o w b ec a us e h e w o u ld p re s e n t re p o r ts to th e me e tin g b u t h e
s a ys h e d o e s n o t h a v e e n o u gh e n g a g e men t b e fo r e th a t b u t in fa c t th e
Bo a r d s h o u ld no t c h o o se a d a te th a t h e , h e d id n o t a p p r o v e o f s o me th in g .
By th e w a y, C h a ir p er s o n , th e Bo a r d h a d th e y e a r p la nn e r.

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Me e tin g s a r e p la n n e d w h e n it is g o in g to b e , b u t b e c a u s e o f th e
c r is is a t PR ASA th e r e w e r e ma n y o th e r me e tin g s w h ic h to o k p la ce w h ic h
w e r e n o t sc h e d u le d me e tin g s a n d w e to o k a v ie w th a t a me e tin g o f th e
Bo a r d c o u ld n o t b e p o s tp on e d b ec a u se o n e p e r s o n is n o t c o min g ev e n if
th a t p e r s o n is th e g r o u p ’s C EO .

We w o u ld r a th e r n o t d is c us s w h a t h e

w o u ld h a v e p r es e n te d in h is a b s e nc e , b u t w e w o u ld d is c u ss e v e ry th in g
e ls e th a t n e e d e d to b e d is c us s ed .
So th a t is th e tu r n th a t I to o k a n d th e n h e s ta te d th a t it w a s
v e ry c le a r fr o m th e b e g in n in g th a t th is B o a r d o f D ir e c to rs w h ic h is a
10

Bo a r d o f p e o p le w h o kn o w no th in g a b o ut r a il w a s a p po in te d w ith o u t
c o n su ltin g h im.
H e w as n o t a sk e d to g iv e h is o p in ion o n a nd th a t it is a Bo a r d
th a t i t is c le a r w a s a p p o in te d to g e t r id o f h im. Th e n h e a ls o s a y s th a t
th e Min is te r a c tu a lly a p p e a r s to h a v e h a d a d i ffe r e n t ma n d a te fo r th e
Bo a r d . Th a t is w a s c lea r fr o m th e b e g in n in g th a t th e Min is te r w h e n sh e
in s is te d o n b r in g in g th is C h a ir pe r so n o f th e Bo a r d , s h e a c tu a lly mu s t h av e
g iv e n h im in s tr u c tio ns to g e t r id o f h im .
Th e n h e sy s te ma tic a lly la id c o mp la in ts abo u t o th e r D ir ec to r s ;
th e C h a ir, th e C h a ir p e rs o n o f th e Au d it a n d R is k Co mmitte e , th e

20

d is c us s ion s a b o u t d is cu ss io n s o f th e FC IP a n d Mr S te e n k a mp w h o w a s
c h a ir in g , I th in k th a t c o mmitte e w o u ld ha v e b e en , w a s c a lle d SH EQ .
SH EQ Se c u r ity, Sa fe ty, H e a lth , a n d Q u a lity C o mmitte e o f th e Bo a r d .

It

w a s a v er y lo n g d oc u me n t.
Ye s te r d a y C o u nc il s a id th a t, a r e q u e s t h a d b e e n ma d e to
Mr Mo n ta n a to s u b mit th a t d o c u me n t. To m e , C h a ir p e rs o n , th e d is c u ss io n

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
u n fo ld e d , it me a n t n o th in g to me e x c e p t th e r e is a n a tte mp t to u s e w h a t
Mr Mo n ta n a w a s s a y in g a n d th e d e mon s tra tio n s th a t h a p p e n e d a g a ins t
th e Bo a r d a t PR ASA to ju s tify b r in g in g h im b a c k to sa y, in fa c t it is th e
e mp lo y e es o f PR ASA w h o a r e d e man d in g th a t th e ir g r o u p C EO mu s t
c o me .
In fa c t, th a t w a s s a id in th e me e tin g d u r in g th e d is c u ss io n . So ,
I a m s a y in g if I a p p e a r e d to h a v e n o t fo llo w e d e v er y a cc us a tio n th a t w a s
th e r e , th a t w a s n o t fu n d a me n ta l to th e r o le o f th e Bo a r d a n d its d e c is io n .
It is a p r o b le m th a t th e Min is te r in th e Pr e s i d e n cy. Th e Pr e s id e n t h ims e lf
10

w h o w a n te d to c o n s id e r th e s e ma tte r s a n d th e Min is te r o f Tr a n s p or t
n e e d e d to fo r m a v ie w o f w h a t th e y s a y s h ou ld h a p p e n a b ou t it.
C H A IR PER SO N :

D id a n y b o d y in th e me e t i n g e v e r e x p la in o r ma y b e le t

me s ta r t w ith th is .

D id y o u u n d e r s ta n d a s y o u p a r tic ip a te d in th a t

me e tin g w h y, w h a t th e b a s is w a s fo r th e M in is te r in th e Pr e s id e n c y s h o u ld
b e p a r t o f th a t me e tin g s in c e th e Min is te r o f Tr a n s p or t w a s th e r e ?
MR MO LEFE:

O n e c o u ld n o t q u e s tio n th a t th e p r e s e nc e o f th e Min is te r

a n d th e Pr e s id e n cy.

At th e time th e Min i s te r a n d th e Pr e s id e n cy w a s

r e s p on s ib le fo r p e r fo r ma nc e mo n ito r in g a n d e v a lu a tio n o f th e G o v e r n me n t
a n d b y e x te n s io n y o u c o u ld s a y th e r e a r e ce r ta in s ta te - o w n ed c o mp a n ies
20

w h ic h fa ll u n d e r v a r io us d e p ar tme n t, th e r e fo r e , d e p a r tme n t th e r e fo r e my
jo b r e q u ir e s th a t I a ls o s e e k to u n d e r s ta n d a n d h a v e c o n c er n if th e r e
a p p e a r to b e p r o b le ms in a s ta te - o w n e d co mp a n y s o I d id n o t fin d th a t
( In te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N :

Bu t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d in g wa s th a t it w a s n o t in c o n s is te n t

w ith h is p o r tfo lio ?

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
MR MO LEFE:

Ye s , C h a ir p e r s o n I d id n o t c o n s id er it in c o n s is te n t, b u t

w h a t I fo u n d in c o n s is te n t is th e fa c t th a t I g o in to a me e tin g w h e r e a ny
p a r tic ip a n t th a t w e w e r e n o t a d v is e d th a t w o u ld b e p a r t o f th a t me e tin g .
Th e Min is te r k n e w I w a s c o min g . I k n e w sh e w a s g o in g to th e me e tin g .
Th e o n ly pa r tic ip a n t we d id n o t kn o w w a s co min g w a s Mr Mo n ta n a an d h e
c o me s in th e r e w ith a d e ta ile d r e p or t.
N o t e v e n th e Min is te r w as as k ed to p r e par e a r ep o r t fo r th e
me e tin g s o th a t w a s w h a t w a s s tr a ng e a n d th a t h a v in g b e e n p r ec e d e d by
th e d e mo n s tr a tio n , my me e tin g w ith Mr Mo n ta n a in Kn y s n a w h e r e ma n y o f
10

th e is s u e s , c o mp la in ts h e r a is e d in h is d e ta ile d p r e s en ta tio n to th e
me e tin g c a lle d by th e Pr e s id e n cy we r e s imila r o r th e s a me a n d a ls o o f
c o u rs e a t th a t p o in t in time I w a s a ls o a wa re th a t a s w e w e r e w o rk in g o n
d is c ip lin in g th e me mb e r s o f s ta ff w h o , w h e n s o me p e o p le fr o m o u ts id e
c a me to d e mo n s tr a te a t th e h e a d q u a r te rs o f th e c o mp a n y o p e n e d th e
d o o r s an d g a te s fo r th e m to g e t in to th e b u ild in g a n d th e y th e ms e lv e s
s p e n t h o ur s on e n d n o t w o rk in g w ith o u t p er mis s io n a n d w e in s is te d th a t
th e r e s h o u ld b e co n se q u e nc e ma n a ge me n t fo r th o s e p e o p le .
Th e

c o ns e q u en c e

ma na g e me n t

d u r ing

w h ic h

o nc e

th e

in d iv id u a ls h a d b e e n a d v is ed th a t th e y w o u ld b e d is c ip lin e d s o me o f th e m
20

b e g g in g n o t to b e fir e d b e g a n to c o n fe s s , a t le a s t I h a v e b e e n a d v is e d o f
o n e th a t s h e is s o r ry a n d th e y p a r tic ip a te d in th e s e d e mo n s tr a tio ns .
Th e y w e r e e nc o u r ag e d b y th e Min is te r in th e Pr e s id e n c y
b e c a us e h e s a id th a t Mr Mo n ta n a w a s c omin g b a c k w h ic h is s o me th in g
s imila r to w h a t w e h e a r d p r ev io u s ly th a t c e r ta in ma n a g e rs w e r e to ld th a t
y o u b e tte r fin d y o u r se lf o n th e r ig h t s id e w h e n th a t mo me n t c o me s a n d

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th e s e in d iv id u a ls p a r tic ip a te d s o th e r e is th is b a c k gr o u nd o r b a c kd r o p to
th is me e tin g a n d , w h ic h th e re fo r e e xp la in s w h y Mr Mo n ta n a w a s a llow e d
to g iv e th is lo n g r e p o r t to th e Pr e s id e n t e v e n in p r e fe r e n c e to th e Min is te r
w h o is d ir e c tly a c c ou n tin g to th e Pr e s id e n t e v e n th o u g h w e a r e to ld
r e p o r ts , we a r e mee tin g a s me mbe r s o f th e Afr ic a n N a tio n a l Co n g re ss b u t
a t le a s t w e s h o u ld h a v e b e e n g iv e n th e o p p o r tu n ity a ls o to k n o w w h a t w a s
e x p ec te d o f u s th a t d id n o t h a p p e n .
C H A IR PER SO N :

We ll y o u h a v e s a id e a rlie r o n th a t th is w a s lik e a

p a tte r n a n d y o u h a ve ju s t ma d e r e fe r e n ce to th a t n o w. Wa s it s a id th a t
10

th a t is - th a t w a s n o t a n o ff ic ia l me e tin g in t h e s e n se o f th e s ta te , o r g a n s
o f s ta te a n d min is te r s o r w h a t w a s th e p o s itio n ?
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is c o rr e c t Ch a ir p er so n.

It w a s ma d e c lea r th a t ...

( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: It w a s ma d e c le a r.
MR MO LEFE: We ll th e Pr e s id e n t c o nv e n e d th is me e tin g .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . As Pr e s id e n t o f th e p a r ty.
MR MO LEFE:

Pr e s id e n t o f th e p a r ty c o n c e r n ed a b o u t me mb e rs o f th e

p a r ty e n g a g in g in p u b lic s p en d .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. Bu t e ffe c tiv e ly th e d is c u ss io n w a s o n e th a t w a s
20

me a n t to b e a ffe c te d b y a n o r g a n o f s ta te .
MR MO LEFE:

Th a t is c o r r ec t C h a ir pe r so n .

I me a n if it is a p a r ty

d is c us s ion it s h o u ld b e ta lk in g ab o u t w h a t is th e r o le o f th e b ra n ch e s o f
p a r ty, r e g io n a l c o mmitte e s , th e p r o v inc ia l s tr u c tu re s .

An d it s h o u ld b e

s a y in g th is , p u t th is o n th e a g e n da b u t I d o n o t k n o w h o w a n yb o d y w o u ld
h a v e ta ke n a ma tte r o f a s ta te o rg a n and s a id n ow it is g o in g to be

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d is c us s ed a n d b e r es o lv ed b y o n a p a r ty p latfo r m. We ll it w a s b a z a ar.
C H A IR PER SO N: Wo u ld it n o t w h e th e r it is r ig h t o r w r o n g le t u s le a ve it
th a t fo r n o w - w o u ld it n o t b e ta k e n b y s o me b o d y w ho b e lie v es th e c e n tr e
o f p o w e r is th e p a r ty ?
MR MO LEFE: We ll it is p r o b a b le th a t th a t i s w h a t th e y be lie v e d bu t I w a s
o n th e n a tio n a l e x e cu tiv e c o mmitte e fo r a lo n g time a n d I w a s th e
s e cr e ta r y o f w h a t w as c a lle d th e G o v er n a nce a n d L e g is la tu r es C o mmitte e
s u b co mmitte e o f th e N a tio n a l Ex e c u tiv e c o mmitte e .

Th e c h a ir p e rs o n o f

th a t c o mmitte e w a s D r ( in d is tin c t Fr in i Ts h in w a la ) a nd in th e d is c u ss io ns
10

th a t c o mmit te e p u t a ll th e ti me in th e AN C N a tio n a l Ex e c u tiv e c o mmitte e
w a s th e r e e mp h a s is o n th e s e p a r a tio n o f p o w e r s . Se p a r a tio n o f th e p a r ty
a n d th e s ta te a n d s e p a r a tio n o f th e Ex e c u tiv e a r m o f G o v e r n me n t a n d th e
L e g is la tu r e a s w e ll a s th e J u d ic ia ry s o w e w er e ve r y c le ar o n th os e
ma tte r s .
Bu t o f c o u r s e I th in k a f te r th e Po lo k w a n e c o n fe r e n c e p e o p le
s ta r te d - th in g s s ta r te d b e in g c o n fla te d . I w ill ima g in e th a t th e r o le o f th e
g o v e rn a nc e a n d le g is la tur e s su b co mmitte e o f th e N EC a ls o d imin is h e d
a n d w e c o n tin u e d to se e th a t a ls o in p ublic s ta te me n ts th a t a r e b e ing
ma d e e v e n n ow b y le a d in g me mb er s o f th e p a r ty.

20

C H A IR PER SO N: Th e n g o in g b a ck to th e me e tin g . J u s t a n o th er q u es tio n
b e fo r e Mr So n i c o n tin u e s .

Yo u h a v e s a id th a t w h a t w a s s o u g h t b y Mr

Mo n ta n a a n d Mr - a n d th e fo r me r Pr e s id en t, I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r a ls o by
th e min is te r a n d th e Pr e s id e n c y b u t a t le a s t th e fo r me r Pr e s id e n t a n d Mr
Mo n ta n a s e e me d to b e th a t th e b o a r d s h o u ld r e v iew its d e c is ion b y wh ic h
I s u s p e c t w h a t w as me a n t is c h a n g e its d e c is io n .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
MR MO LEFE: Th a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o w a r e y o u q u ite c le a r th a t th e d e c is io n th a t th e y

w a n te d th e b o ar d to c ha n g e w a s th e boa r d ’s d ec is io n to ac ce p t Mr
Mo n ta n a ’s d e c is ion n o t to s e e k a n e x te n s io n o f h is c o n tr a c t a s o p p o s ed to
th e d e c is io n o f th e b o a r d in J u ly to s a y to Mr Mo n ta n a , s o r r y y o u w ill
h a v e to s te p d o w n b e c a u s e y o ur c o n tin u e s ta y d o e s n o t s e r v th e p u r p o s e
fo r w h ic h w e w an te d y o u to s ta y.
MR MO LEFE:
C h a ir p er so n .
10

I th in k th e r e is a - a c o n n ec tio n b e tw e e n th e tw o
W h a t I u n d e r s to o d to h a v e b e e n w a n te d by th e Pr e s id e n t

w a s fir s tly th a t r e s c in d th e d e c is io n th a t h e s h o u ld g o . Se c o n d ly c o n s id er
g iv in g h im a c o n tr a c t, a n o th e r c o n tr a c t ma y b e 5 y e a r s c o n tr ac t th a t is th e
b e s t p e rs o n to ru n th is or g a n iz a tio n . Th is o r g a n iz a tio n c an n o t a ffo r d to
lo s e h im. O f c o u r s e , th is d is cu ss io n w as a ls o p r ec e d ed b y a s ta te me n t
ma d e b y Mr Mo n ta na in th e s a me me e ting th a t h e h a d w r itte n to th e
Min is te r a d v is in g th a t s h o u ld s h e w a n t h im to r e tu r n , I th in k h e p r o b a b ly
w r o te to th e b o a r d a s w e ll th a t h e w a s w illin g to r e tu r n to ta k e o v e r a s th e
G r o u p C EO o f th e c o mp an y. So , th e Pr e s id e n t s a ys th e ma n mig h t h a v e
d e c id e d to g o bu t h e is n o w w illin g to c o me b a c k . H e is th e mos t s k ille d
p e r s on in th is fie ld . Th e c o u n tr y a n d th e c omp a n y n e e d h im.

20

C H A IR PER SO N: D id a n y b o dy in th e me e ti n g , I g u e s s it c o u ld o n ly h a v e
b e e n e ith e r y o u o r Min is te r D ipu o Pe te r s , d id a n y b o dy in th e me e tin g s a y,
h a n g o n , wh a t a r e w e ta lk ing a b o u t re a lly h e r e ?

Bec a us e h e mad e th e

d e c is ion , th a t is Mr Mo n ta n a , th a t h e is n o t in te r e s te d in a n e x te n s io n o f
h is c o n tr a c t. So w h e r e d o e s th is th in g c o me fr o m n o w th a t i f th e min is te r
w a n ts h im, h e is p r e p a re d to c o me b a ck . W h o h a s p ro mp te d th a t? W h y

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is h e s a y in g th a t? H e ma d e th is d e c is io n so w h e r e d o es it c o me fr o m to
s a y, if y o u n ee d me , I a m p r e p a re d to c o me b a ck . D id a n yb o d y a sk th a t
q u e s tio n ?
MR MO LEFE: I d id r a is e it ma y b e th e la tt e r p a r t n o t a s s y mp a th e tic a s
th e C h a ir p e rs o n is r a is in g it.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: Bu t I d id s a y, w h a t a r e w e d o in g h e r e ? I me a n th e ma n ’s
c o n tr ac t e x p ir es . H e s ay s I d o n o t w a n t a n e x te n s io n . H e s a ys b u t I a m
w illin g to h e lp y ou fo r 6 mo n th s , th e b oa rd a g r e es .
10

ma n is n o t p r eo r d a ine d to b e th e G ro u p C EO .
limite d c o n tr a c t a n d is g o ing s o .

So , w h a t- a n d th e

Th e ma n w a s g iv e n a

An d it w a s a t th a t p o in t w h a t I s a id -

w h e n I s a id to th e Pr e s id e n t, I d id n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h a t is y o u r p r o b le m?
Ma y b e y o u w ill s a y th a t I ma y n o t b e w is e e n o u g h to u n d e rs ta n d y o u b u t I
a m h a p p y th a t I c o n v e ne a b o a rd me e tin g . Ma y b e th e o th e r d ir ec to rs w ill
u n d e rs ta n d y ou r p ro b le m s o c o me a n d a d d re s s us . So th a t is w h a t I s a id .
Bu t I a m a w a r e C h a ir pe r so n a t th a t p o in t in time th a t th e r e w e r e a lo t o f
o th e r p e o p le w h o we r e lo bb y in g Mr Mo n ta n a to s a y th a t h e w a n ts to
r e tu r n .
N a tu r a lly h is d ep a r tu re w o u ld h a ve p r e se n te d a d iffic u lt p r o b le m
20

to th o s e w h o b e n e fitte d th r o u gh h is pr es e nc e a s a ma jo r d e c is io n mak e r
a t th e a d min is tr a tiv e le v e l.

Be c a u s e a t th a t ti me w e a r e n o w g o in g to

d e a l- d e a lin g w ith th e Siy a n g e n a , Siy a y a , Sip h a mb o c o n tr ac ts a n d s ev e ra l
o th e r s . So , i f h e is th e r e , h e c a n c o n tin u e to p la y th e r o le o f fr u s tr a tin g
o u r e ffo r t to g e t d e e p e r in to th e s e ma tte r s . Ma k e it imp o s s ib le fo r u s to
a c c es s in for ma tio n in o r de r to p ro v e o u r ca s e .

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So th a t is r e a lly w h a t I

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
u n d e rs to o d it to b e .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Wa s th e Pr e s id e n t a t th e time a w a r e o f Mr Mo n ta n a ’s

a tta c k o n th e b o a r d in th e me d ia ? Th a t is w h a t h a d p r o mp te d th e me e tin g
a c tu a lly if I u n d e r s to o d y o u co r r ec tly.
MR MO LEFE: C h a ir p e r s o n th e Pr e s id e n t w a s a w a r e . Th e r e is a ma tte r I
d id n o t in c lu d e in th e- in my a ffid a v it b u t in th e lig h t o f th e d e e p
q u e s tio n in g th a t th e Pr e s id e n t- I me a n th e C h a ir p er so n is r a is in g , I n e e d
to b r in g it o n b o a r d n o w.
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
10

MR MO LEFE: A fte r a lo n g t ime w ith Mr M o n ta n a a tta c k in g th e b o a r d o f
d ir e c to rs

and

we

h av in g

s ta r te d -

th e

board

h a v in g

s tar te d

th e

in v e s tig a tio ns . I a n d o f c o u r s e in my d isc us s io n w ith th e th e n Tr ea s ur e r
G e n e r a l o f th e p a r ty D r Zw e li Mkh iz e .

I h a d a g r ee d h e h ad s u g ge s te d

th a t I s h o u ld a d d r es s th e le a d e rs h ip o f th e p a r ty. So , w e th e n c o n v e n ed a
me e tin g fo r me to ta lk to th e to p 6 o f th e p a r ty. Th e - my r e c o lle c tio n is
th a t th e o n ly p e r s o n w h o w as n o t in th a t me e tin g w a s th e Sp e a k e r o f
Pa r lia me n t w h o in h e r ca p ac ity a s th e c ha irp e r s on o f th e p a r ty w as in th e
to p 6 .
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
20

MR MO LEFE:

I a d d r e ss e d th a t me e tin g n o t ta lk in g a b o u t w h a t is

h a p p e n ing in PR ASA a n d s o o n s imp ly to s a y, y o u a r e th e r u lin g p a r ty.
Th is c o u n tr y th e s ta te - o w ne d c o mp a n ies a r e g o v er n e d in te r ms o f th e
la w s o f th is c o u n try a n d th os e la ws h av e e ith e r b e e n ad o p te d fr o m th e
p a s t ma y b e a d a p te d to th e n e w s itu a tio n . An d s e v e ra l o f th e m w e r e la w s
w h ic h w e re ma d e b y o u r p a r ty, th is p a r ty, s o fu n d a me n ta lly y o u a s th e

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r u lin g p a r ty yo u a r e th e c us to d ia n s o f th e c o n s titu tio n o f th e R e p u b lic o f
So u th Afr ic a . Bu t y o u a r e a ls o th e c u s to d ia n s o f a ll th e la w s w h ic h a r e
u s e d to g o v e rn e ith e r s ta te c o mp a n ie s a nd so o n . Th e k e y p r o v is io n s th a t
g o v e rn w h ic h y o u h a ve r e s p on s ib ility to e n s u r e h a v e to h a p p e n in r e s p e c t
o f PR ASA is th a t th e r e is a p u b lic fin a n c e ma n a g e me n t a c t, th e r e is th e
So u th Afr ic a n Tr a n s po r t Se r v ic es Ac t o f- I th in k it w a s 2 0 0 9 Ac t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: So , I s a id to th e m, I a m n o t h e r e to a s k y o u to d o a n y th in g
fo r me a s a p er so n .
10

W h a t I a m h e r e to te ll y o u th a t a ll o f y o u , y o u

a p p r ov e d my a p p o in tme n t a s th e c h a ir o f th e b o a r d .

In a s e n s e y o u

d e p lo y ed me o n th e b o a r d o f c o n tr o l o f PR ASA. An d I a m r u n n in g th a t
o r g a n iz a tio n o n b e h a lf o f th e c o u n tr y.

Th e b o a r d o f d ir e c to rs w a s

a p p o in te d by th e G o v er n me n t b y th e go v ern in g p a r ty. It is s u b jec te d to
s u s ta in a tta ck b y Mr Mo n ta na b u t n o n e o f y o u h as r a ise d a vo ic e to s ay,
w h y a re y o u ta k ing a n in s titu tio n th a t w e a r e u s in g to a dv a n ce th e
e c o n o mic

and

d e v e lo p me n t-

s oc ia l

d e ve lo p me n t

o b je c tiv e s

of

th e

G o v e rn me n t in th e c o u n try. I s a id y ou a r e n o t d o in g th a t. So I a m h e r e
th e r e fo r e to te ll y o u to d a y th a t a lth o u g h I ha v e b e en q u ie t fo r a lo n g time
I a m n o w g o in g to b e g in to ac t a n d w h en I a c t I w o u ld b e a p p ly ing th e
20

le g a l in s tr u me n ts th a t y o u h a ve a r me d me w ith to r u n th a t c o mp a n y, th e
Pu b lic Fin a n c e Ma n a ge me n t Ac t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR

MO LEFE:

One

of

th o s e

is

th e

c r itic a l

is s u e

of

fid u c ia r y

r e s p on s ib ilitie s . Th e r e q u ir e me n t fo r u s to ma n a g e p r u d en tly th e fin a n c e s
o f th e c o u n tr y a n d to d e a l w ith c o r r u p tio n in th e c o mp a n y. So th a t is w h a t

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
I a m g o in g to b e d o in g .

I r e me mb e r th e m s a y ing - a n d th e c u r re n t

Pr e s id e n t w a s a ls o in th a t me e tin g . H e s a y s , w e w e r e n o t e x p e c tin g th is .
We a r e g o in g to h a v e a n o th e r me e tin g .
e n o u g h time to th in k a b o u t th is .
a n y th in g .

Eis h , y o u h a v e n o t g iv e n u s

An d I s a id , n o , I a m n o t a s k in g fo r

I a m ju s t ma k in g y o u a w ar e so th a t w h e n th in g s h a p p en o u t

th e r e , a t le a s t y o u h a v e b e e n fo r e w ar n e d a b o u t th e s e ma tte r s . So , th e
Pr e s id e n t w as in th a t me e tin g C h a ir p e r s on , h e k n e w a bo u t th is .
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MR MO LEFE: An d th a t me e tin g h a p p e n e d b e fo r e th e me e tin g o f th e 2 0 t h
10

o f Au g u s t a n d I d o s ta te in my a ffid a v it th a t a p a r t fo r m th a t me e t in g o f th e
2 0 t h o f Au g u s t I d id n o t h a v e a n y o th e r mee tin g w ith th e Pr e s id e n t u n til
to d a y.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ho w lo ng b e fo r e th e me e tin g o f th e 2 0 t h o f Au g u s t
w a s y ou r me e tin g w ith th e to p 6 ?
MR MO LEFE: I w o u ld n o t r e a lly b e a b le to p la c e time o n th a t b u t i t w a s
w h e n Mr Mo n ta na h a d s ta r te d a tta c k in g the b o a r d o f d ir e c to rs . It c o u ld
b e th a t h e w a s s till o n th e - in PR AS A b u t I c a n n o t r e a lly e s ta b lis h th a t …
( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Su r e .

20

MR MO LEFE: Bu t th e r e a lity is th a t w h a t I a m a b le to e s ta b lis h is th a t in
r e s p on s e to th e q u e s tio n o f th e C h a ir p e rs o n th a t th e Pr e s id e n t k n e w.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . An d k n e w q u ite w e ll.
MR MO LEFE: An d h e k n e w q u ite - h e k n e w q u ite w e ll.
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u h a d to ld th e m.
MR MO LEFE: I h a d to ld th e m.

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
C H A IR PER SO N: J a .
MR MO LEFE: In th a t me e tin g .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : J u s t to fo llo w u p to th e e a r lie r q u e s tio n s Mr Mo le fe .
At th e - a t y o u r me e tin g w ith th e to p 6 a s I u n d e r s ta n d it th e y w e r e
s u g g es tin g th e y w a n t to c o n s id er it a n d p e r h a p s c o me b ac k to y o u o r yo u
c o me b a ck to th e m.

O r a m I w r o n g th a t th a t w a s th e o n ly p o ss ib le

me e tin g th a t w a s g o in g to b e o n th e c a r d s ?
MR MO LEFE: Th e y w e r e s a y in g , b u t w e h a v e n o t- y o u h av e n o t g iv e n u s
e n o u g h time to th in k a b o u t w ha t y o u ar e s a y in g .
10

We ll imp lie d in th a t

s ta te me n t is th a t th e y w o u ld w a n t time a t s o me p o in t to th in k a b ou t it.
Bu t th a t is w h a t- th a t w a s n o t w h a t I w a s a sk in g fo r. I w a s in fo r min g th e m
th a t th e r e a r e th e s e th in g s h a p p e n in g . Yo u a r e th e c u s to d ia ns o f th e la w s
o f th e c o u n tr y.

Yo u a r e th e g o v e r n in g p a r ty.

Yo u a r e d o in g n o th in g

b e c a us e y o u w a n te d to a llo w s p a c e to s e e if th e c a mp a ig n s o f Mr
Mo n ta n a w o u ld lea d to th e d e fe a t o f th e b oa r d - th e c o lla ps e o f th e b o a rd .
An d th a t is n o t h a p p e n in g .
A D V VA S SO N I SC : D id th e y - b e g o re th is me e tin g o f th e 2 0 t h o f Au g u s t
2 0 1 5 , d id th e to p 6 ca ll y o u b a ck o r in for ma lly r a ise th is ma tte r w ith yo u
a g a in ?
20

MR MO LEFE: Th e y n e v e r ca lle d me to a n y me e tin g .
C H A IR PER SO N: An d h o w d id th a t me e tin g b e tw e e n y o u rs e lf a n d th e to p
6 w h ic h mu s t h a v e b ee n th e to p 5 o n th a t d a y.
MR MO LEFE: Th e to p 5 , y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N: H o w d id it e n d ?
MR MO LEFE: Be c a u s e o n e w as a b se n t.

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
C H A IR PER SO N: J a , o n e w a s a b se n t. H o w d id it e n d ?
MR MO LEFE: We ll it e n d e d w ith th e D e p u ty Pr e s id en t s a y ing , w e h a ve to
g o to a n o th e r me e tin g o f th e w or k ing c ommitte e .

We a r e n o t a b le to

c o mme n t o n w h a t y o u h a v e s a id a s w e h a ve n o t h a d time to th in k a b o u t it.
Bu t I w a s n o t a s k in g fo r c o mme n t.

I w a s s ta tin g a fa c t th a t …

( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u w e r e in fo r min g th e m.
MR MO LEFE: In fo r min g th e m.
C H A IR PER SO N: J a .
10

MR MO LEFE: Th a t th in g s a r e g o in g to h a p p e n a n d th e y w ill b e h a p pe n th e y w ill h a p p e n p e r s ua d e - p u rs u an t r a th e r, p u r s u a n t to p r o te c tio n o f th e
in te r e s t o f th e c o mp a n y a n d th e c o u n try.
A D V VA S SO N I SC : W h a t is th e … ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: We ll I a m- I a m s o r r y Mr S o n i. I a m g la d y o u d e c id e d to
te ll me th a t p a r t Mr Mo le fe .

D iffe r e n t m e mb e r s o f o u r s o c ie ty in th is

c o u n try c an ma k e a ll k in ds o f b e au tifu l s ta te me n ts a b o u t h ow mu c h th ey
a r e o p p o se d to c o r r u p tio n a n d h o w mu c h th e y a b o r e co r r up tio n a n d h o w
mu c h th e y a r e o p p o se d to Sta te C a p tu r e . An d h o w mu c h th e y a b o r e it
a n d h o w mu ch th e y d o n o t w a n t it to h a p p e n a g a in . Bu t i f p e o p le a r e n o t
20

p r e p ar e d to te ll th e tr u th a b o u t w h a t th e y k n ow, a ll e ffo r ts to c a p
c o r ru p tio n a r e n o t g o in g to b e a r fr u it.
We n e e d a s a c o u n tr y to fa c e th e r e a lity a n d te ll o n e a n o th e r
c e r ta in tr u th s a n d a d mit w he r e w e h av e n o t d o n e th e r ig h t th in gs .
Be c a u s e as y ou p r o b ab ly kn o w th a t I h a ve b e e n s ay in g p e op le s h ou ld
r e a lly c o me fo r wa r d .

Sta te C a p tu r e w ill ha p p e n a ga in in th is c o u n try if

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
we

fin d

th a t

it

has

happened

and

we

are

not

a b le

to

ma k e

r e c o mme nd a tio n s th a t w ill ma k e s u r e th a t if imp le me n te d it n e v e r
h a p p e ns a g a in . It w ill h a pp e n a ga in if w e d o n o t c o me o u t a n d s a y a n d
s p e ak c e r ta in tr u th s e v e n if c e r ta in p e o p le mig h t n o t b e h a p p y w ith th o s e
tr u th s .

Be c a u se o n e o f th e is s u es we h av e g o t to lo o k a t is , w h a t d id

v a r io us in s titu tio n s , w h a t d id v a r io u s fu n c tio n a r ies o f th e s ta te , w h a t d id
v a r io us b o d ie s , w h a t d id v a r io us in d iv id u a ls o f in flu e n c e k n o w a b o u t Sta te
C a p tu r e a nd a t w h a t s ta g e .

An d a b o u t th e le v e ls o f c or r up tio n in th e

c o u n try. An d w h a t w e r e th e y p r e p ar e d to d o a b o u t it fo r th e c o u n tr y.
Th e n w e k no w v ar io u s pe o p le ta k e th e o a th to b e fa ith fu l to th e

10

R e p u b lic o f So u th Afr ic a a n d if y o u a sk me to b e fa ith fu l to th e R e p u b lic
o f So u th Afr ic a me a n s if th e in te r e s t o f th e R e p u b lic o f So u th Afr ic a s e e m
to c la s h w ith s o me b o dy e ls e ’s in te r es t, th o s e o f th e R e p u b lic p r e v a il. An d
I w r o te - w e s e n d le tte r s , th e C o mmis s ion to v a r io u s p o litic a l p a r tie s
r e c e n tly w h o a re r e p re s e n ted in Pa r lia me nt a n d a s k th e m to ma k e th e ir
o w n c o n tr ibu tio n s w h ic h in c lu d es w h e th er o v e r th e y e ar s Pa r lia me n t h a d
a d e q u a te ov e rs ig h t me c h an is ms to p er fo r m its o v er s ig h t fu n c tio ns
e ffe c tiv e ly. An d h o p e fu l w e w ill g e t s o me in fo r ma tio n a n d s o . Bu t p a r t o f
w h a t o n e is tr y in g to s e e is h o w d id we c ome to b e w h e r e w e a r e ? D id
20

c e r ta in v a r iou s b o d ies p la y th e ir p a r t p r o p e r ly in c lu d in g Pa r lia me n t? An d
if th e y d id n o t p la y it p r o p e r ly, h a d th e y p lay it p r o p e r ly c o u ld s o me o f th e
th in g s h a v e b e e n a v o id e d a n d c o u ld w e h a ve n o t r e a c h e d th e p o in t w h e r e
we are.
So , I ju s t me n tio n e d th is b e c a u se I ju s t fo u n d - I ju s t th in k th a t
w h a t y o u h a v e to ld me is v e r y imp o r ta n t. Yo u d o n o t n e e d to s a y a n y th in g

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in r e s p o n se b u t I ju s t th o u g h t I w o u ld s a y th is . Bu t I a m n o t p r e v e n tin g
y o u fr o m s ay in g so me th in g if y o u w an t to b u t I a m ju s t- I d o n o t w a n t y o u
to fe e l o b lig e d to s a y a n y th in g .
MR MO LEFE:

N o , I- th a n k y o u C ha ir p er so n b u t I b e lie v e in th e v a lue s

th a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n h as a r tic u la te d , th e v a lu e s th a t r e q u ir e s th a t to th e
e x te n d th a t th e in te r e s t o f th e c o u n tr y a r e in c o n flic t w ith o u r o w n
p e r s on a l in te r e s t th a t w e w o u ld s u b o r d ina te o u r p e r s o na l o r p a r ty in te r e s t
to th e in te r e s t o f th e c o u n tr y.
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e c o u n tr y, y e s .
10

MR MO LEFE: Th a t is a v a lu e th a t I h o ld d e a r.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MR MO LEFE: An d th a t is a v a lu e fo r w h ich I w o u ld c o n tin u e to fig h t fo r
a n d I a m n o t p r e p a r e d to c o mp r o mis e my in te g r ity, my r e p u ta tio n s imp ly
to e n d e a r mys e lf to th e p a r ty.
th a t.

Bu t C h a ir p e r s on n o t e v er y b od y ca n d o

Th e r e a r e ma n y y o u n g p e o p le , y o un g p r o fe s s ion a l w h o b e g in to

w o r k . Th e y g e t ma r r ie d , s ta r t a fa m ily, th e y b u y a h o me , p a y a h u g e b o n d
a n d e x p e ns ive c a r a n d c h ildr e n a n d p r iv a te s c h o o l. Th e y a r e p u t b y - in
th e p o s itio n s a n d c e r ta in in d iv idu a ls in h ig h p la c e s in th e p a r ty ma k e
th e m b e lie v e th a t th e e x te n d to w h ic h th e y c o u ld h a v e u p wa r d mo b ility
20

w h e th e r w h e re th e y a r e o r in th e b r o a d e r s o c ie ty is d e p e n d en t o n th e m
p le a s in g th o se o c c up y in g p os itio n o f in flu e n c e a n d d e c is io n ma k in g e ith e r
in th e s ta te - o w n e d c o mpa n ie s o r in th e p a r ty.
I w o u ld s a y a n d I a m s a y in g it h e r e th a t I th in k th e p a r ty th a t I
b e lo n g to is fa ilin g th e c o u n tr y a n d h a s fa ile d th e c o u n tr y o v e r th is
s e v er a l y e a rs . Th a t w e h a d v a lu e s w h ic h in s p ir ed a n d s u s ta in e d u s a n d

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c o s t me a s a yo u n g p er so n to jo in th e s tr u gg le fo r fr e e d o m to s a cr ific e to
g o in a n d o u t o f ja il. To b e e v e n in th e la s t tr e a s o n tr ia l in th e Ap a r th e id
g o v e rn me n t w h ic h w ou ld h av e me a n t th at h a d th e ju d g e d ec id e d to
imp o s e th e u ltima te p e n a lty, I w o u ld h av e b e e n h a ng e d .

I w o u ld h av e

d ie d u n le ss I w a s s a v e d by th e n e g o tia tio n s th a t th e n c a me s h o r tly a fte r
th a t. Bu t th e p a r ty b e in g s o s tr o n g a nd h a vin g e n jo y e d s o mu c h go o d w ill
fr o m o r d in a r y a n d p o o r p e o p le o f th is la n d h a s fa ile d th e m. An d it p a in s
me b e c a us e I k n o w a s a yo u n g ma n I h a ve h a d to g o in to c o mmu n itie s
a n d ta lk to o r d in a ry p e o p le a bo u t w h y it w a s imp o r ta n t fo r th e m to
10

b e c o me p a r t o f th e s tr u g g le fo r fr e e d o m.

It w a s n o t a n e a s y jo b w ith

( in d is tin c t) o rg a n isa tio n s , a fe w mo n th s la te r th e y a r e d ea d b u t w e k e p t
o n g o in g b ac k to th e p e o p le u n til fin a lly b y th e 8 0 s th e mid - 8 0s th e
mo v e me n t fo r lib e ra tio n h a d ( in d is tin c t) e v er y co r n er o f o u r c o u n try. An d
th e c u r r e n t r u lin g g ov e r n men t p a r ty b e c a me a h o u s e h o ld n a me a n d th e
s y s te m o f Ap a r th e id c o lla p s e d u n d e r th e p r e ss u re o f th e r e s is ta n c e o f
o r d in a ry p e o p le in v a r io us c o mmu n itie s .

An d th a t h u g e p r iz e s , th e

u ltima te p r iz e w a s p a id by ma n y o f th o s e o r d in a ry p e o p le e ith e r th r o u g h
a s s as s ina tio n o r a ll fo r ms o f mu r d e r w h ic h h a p pe n e d to o ur p e op le .
So , it p a in s me C h a ir p e rs o n to s it w h er e I a m s ittin g a n d s e e ing
20

w h a t is h a p p e n in g .

I r e c a ll o n e time I w a s a lmo s t lik e a n is o la te d

in d iv id u a l a n d r e fe rr e d to p a r t o f th a t w h e r e I s a y fr o m a h e r o o f th e
lib e r a tio n s tr u gg le , I b e c a me th is in d iv id u a l w h o w as n o w b e in g iso la te d .
An d b e c a u se I c o u ld n o t n o n e o f th is in flu e n tia l p e o p le in my p a r ty c o u ld
r a is e a v o ic e a n d s a y, h e is d o in g th e r ig h t th in g . We s u p p o r t w h a t y o u
a r e d o in g . Yo u o th e r s w h o ar e d o in g w h a t is w r o ng , s to p it, p r e p a r e d to

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d o th a t.
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MOLEFE:

H mm.
I d id a n e x p e n s i v e i n t e r v ie w a n d I w a s v e r y a n g r y

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I d i d t h a t i n t e r v ie w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : I d i d th a t i n t e r v ie w w i t h t h e M a il a n d G u a r d i a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R M O L E F E : A n d th a t a r tic l e w o u l d s a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R M O L E F E : T h a t i n th e g o v e r n in g p a r t y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : T h e r e i s a lo t o f r i ff r a ff .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

O f i n d iv id u a ls w h o b e li e v e t h a t P R A S A i s t h e ir f a r m .

T h a t P R A S A i s a p l a c e w h e r e th e y ju s t w a n t t o c o m e a n d h a r v e s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : T h e y d o n o t s e e i t a s a v e h i c le .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : Th a t h a s t o e m p o w e r a n d i m p r o v e t h e liv e s o f th e p o o r
20

p e o p l e . I m a d e t h a t i n te r v i e w. I t w a s a l o n g in t e r v i e w.
CHAIRPERSON: hm.
M R M O L E F E : To th e c r e d i t o f m y p a r t y t h e y d i d n o t t r y to a t ta c k m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : T h e y k e p t q u i e t . A n d th e y d i d s o b e c a u s e th e y k n e w I
w a s i n f o r m i n g t h e m a b o u t th e t e r r i b l e t h i n g s t h a t w e w e r e u n c o v e r i n g

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a s w e w e r e in v e s ti g a t i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

B u t p r o b a b l y s o m e o f t h e m w e r e b e n e fi t in g fr o m t h e

b a l a n c e th a t o t h e r p e o p le u s e s li k e ja z z .

Th e y w e r e g e t ti n g f u n d in g

a ls o t h i s i ll ic i t f u n d i n g fr o m – f r o m t h e c o ff e r s o f t h e p a r ty t h e – b e t h e y
for conferences or what.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

W h e n I c a m e in t o P R A S A C h a ir p e r s o n I fo u n d t h a t t h e

G C E o f P R A S A – G C O c o u l d b e in s tr u c te d , l o o k th e ( in d i s ti n c t) h a s g o t
10

a b ig r a lly a n d I n e e d t h i s – g i v e u s tr a i n s , g iv e u s b u s s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

A n d I s a i d n o M i n is t e r w e c a n n o t d o th is t h in g .

Yo u

c a n n o t th is is a s t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n y. I f y o u w a n t t o u s e it s a s s e ts y o u
got to pay for using those assets.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : I d o n o t m in d i f P R A S A g iv e s y o u p r e f e r e n t ia l r a t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : B u t a s k th e m t o g i v e y o u a q u o t e to t e l l y o u h o w m u c h i t
w i ll c o s t f o r t h e m t o t r a n s p o r t p e o p le t o a n e v e n t o f t h e r u li n g p a r ty.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : W e s to p p e d t h a t t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : A n d o b v io u s ly I w o u l d n o t h a v e e n d e a r e d my s e l f to a l o t
o f p e o p le w h o b e g a n t o f e e l t h a t I a m b e c o m i n g d i s l o y a l t o t h e p a r ty.
T h a t I a m l o y a l t o th e c o u n tr y.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u k n o w i t is ju s t v e r y i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e i f t h e r e
a r e m o r e a n d m o r e p e o p l e w h o d o n o t t h r o w t h a t l in e ( i n d is t in c t ) a n d
s t a y s a n d i f t h e r e a r e m o r e a n d m o r e i n f l u e n t ia l p e o p l e in t h e p a r ty w h o
w o u ld t h i n k t h a t t h e y c a n j u s t p ic k u p th e p h o n e a n d p h o n e a C E O o f a
p a r a s t a t a l o f a s t a te o w n e d e n ti t y a n d s a y t h e p a r ty n e e d s A , B , C , D n o w
or needs A,B,C,D and that must be done then it creates serious
p r o b le m s . I t c r e a t e s s e r i o u s p r o b l e m s . S o o b v i o u s ly w h a t t h e c o u n tr y
n e e d s a r e p e o p le w h o a r e g o i n g t o b e i n g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts , s t a te
o w n e d e n t it i e s a n d i n B o a r d s w h o w il l b e fi r m t o d o t h e r ig h t t h i n g . A n d
10

in m a n y c a s e s i f w e h a d t h e r i g h t n u m b e r o f p e o p l e w h o w o u l d d o t h e
r ig h t th i n g a n d b e f ir m m a y b e w e w o u l d n o t b e w h e r e w e – w e a r e i n
m a n y r e s p e c ts i n t e r m s o f l e v e l s o f c o r r u p ti o n b e c a u s e I t h in k
e v e r y b o d y a c c e p t s t h a t w e h a v e l e v e ls o f c o r r u p t i o n t h a t a r e r e a ll y
t o t a lly u n a c c e p t a b l e . S o I r e a ll y a p p r e c i a t e w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d a n d i t
is v e r y i m p o r t a n t . W e – w e – t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n t h i n g s t h a t i f w e d o n o t
c h a n g e w e m u s t fo r g e t a b o u t m a k i n g t h is c o u n tr y b e t te r. W e m u s t j u s t
f o r g e t . T h e r e a r e c e r t a in th in g s th a t m u s t c h a n g e . T h a n k y o u M r S o n i
I a p p r e c ia t e t h a t w e h a v e .

B u t t h is is i m p o r t a n t w h a t w e h a v e b e e n

t a lk in g a b o u t. E x tr e m e ly i m p o r ta n t . B u t b e f o r e w e l e a v e t h a t m e e t in g
20

c a n I a s k w h e t h e r y o u s h a r e d w i t h th e t o p 5 /t o p 6 a t t h a t m e e t in g a l s o
w h a t t h e – s o m e o f t h e th in g s t h a t m a y h a v e e m a n a te d f r o m t h e P u b l ic
P r o t e c t o r ’s I n te r i m R e p o r t b e c a u s e I th i n k th e P u b l ic – t h e f i n a l r e p o r t
might not have been out at that time?
M R M O L E F E : I d i d C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
MR MOLEFE:

To s a y t h a t t h e r e a r e t h e s e m a l fe a s a n c e s , c o r r u p ti o n

id e n t i fi e d b y t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r w h ic h i s b a d fo r t h e c o m p a n y a n d t h e
c o u n tr y w h ic h w e n e e d e d t o d e a l w i t h . B u t a ls o t o s a y t h a t i n t h e – o n
t h e o th e r s i d e a s w e ll w e – w e a r e s e e i n g th i n g s t h a t r e q u ir e th a t a s a
b o a r d w e e x e r c i s e o u r fi d u c i a r y d u ty in t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y
a n d t h e c o u n tr y.

They were aware of that and it was in that context

t h a t I w a s – I w a s s a y i n g t o t h e m w e a r e g o i n g t o a c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : A n d i f y o u l o o k a t th e t i m e p e r i o d C h a i r p e r s o n m a y b e i n
10

r e l a ti o n t o th e q u e s ti o n t h a t w a s r a i s e d b y C o u n s e l. I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n
t h e n a f t e r th e r e l e a s e o f th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

T h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t .

B u t o f – b y th a t ti m e I

w a s a lr e a d y a w a r e o f s o m e o f t h e c r it i c a l is s u e s id e n ti fi e d i n th e
Interim Report.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s .

B u t a ls o y o u c o n f ir m th a t a f te r th a t

m e e ti n g n o b o d y fr o m t h e to p 6 e v e r c a m e b a c k t o y o u to s a y, y o u k n o w
w i t h r e g a r d t o w h a t y o u t o l d u s o n th a t d a y w e w o u l d li k e to d o
s o m e t h i n g a b o u t th is .
20

MR MOLEF E: Nothing came.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b o d y.
MR MOLEF E: Nobody came back to me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .

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A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M r C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f is s u e s I

w a n t t o d e a l w i th . I t a k e a c a u t io n y o u – p la c e d e a r l i e r I s a y i t is a b o u t
s e v e n m in u te s p a s t f o u r b u t I w o n d e r i f I c a n a s k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : F o r a b i t o f in d u l g e n c e . Th e y a r e n o t g o in g t o b e
lo n g b u t o u r m i n d s e t m ig h t w e ll b e d i ff e r e n t i f I c a m e to i t a t a d i ff e r e n t
ti m e M r C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e ll I – I c a n s i t l o n g e r b u t a ls o I w o u l d b e

c o n c e r n e d . I w a n t t o k n o w M r M o l e f e ’s s i t u a t io n b e c a u s e h e – h e m a y
10

h a v e b e e n j u s t i fi e d t o t h in k w e w o u l d h a v e fi n is h e d m u c h e a r li e r t o d a y
a n d w e h a v e – w e d i d n o t f in is h . O n e – th e r e a r e t w o p o s s i b il it i e s . D o
y o u h a v e in m i n d th a t i f w e s t a y a l i t tl e lo n g e r w e w o u l d f i n is h w i th h is
e v i d e n c e o r d o y o u th i n k th a t h e m i g h t s t il l n e e d t o – t o c o m e b a c k ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C : H e d e fi n i t e ly h a s t o c o m e b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON: He has to come back.
MR MOLEFE:

B e c a u s e – th o s e a r e t h e m a t t e r s y o u r a is e d a b o u t

o v e r s ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d h is a ffi d a v i t d e a l s q u i t e i n d e ta il .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r M o l e f e i n t e r m s o f y o u r o w n li f e c o m i n g b a c k
lik e M o n d a y I a m a s s u m in g I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th a t is w h a t y o u h a v e
in m i n d .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I f Mr M o le f e i s a v a il a b l e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i s a v a il a b l e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I t w o u l d – t h a t is th e a p p r o p r i a te t i m e .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w is y o u r s i tu a ti o n ?
M R M O L E F E : I d o h a v e a d i ff ic u l ty C h a ir p e r s o n w it h M o n d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h M o n d a y o k a y.
MR MOLEF E: I have …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : A c r i t ic a l B o a r d S t r a t e g y m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : W h ic h m u s t a p p r o v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR MOLEFE:

A d o c u m e n t t h a t i s r e q u ir e d i n t e r m s o f t h e s t a t u t o r y

p r o v i s i o n s a n d i t h a s t o b e w i t h t h e M in is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : S h o r t ly a ft e r t h a t m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.
MR MOLEFE:

O n Tu e s d a y I a g a i n h a v e a n a p p o i n t m e n t o u ts i d e

Gauteng.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

W i t h m y o r t h o p a e d ic – I h a v e h a d k n e e s u r g e r y

C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M O L E F E : B u t t h e a p p o in t m e n t w i t h th e o r t h o p a e d ic I c a n p o s tp o n e
w h ic h m e a n s I c a n – I h a d a lr e a d y p a i d f o r m y a ir t ic k e t a n d s o o n . I
c a n c a n c e l t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
M R M O L E F E : A n d c o m e o n Tu e s d a y o r W e d n e s d a y.

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

O th e r w i s e th e w h o l e w e e k n e x t w e e k I w i ll n o t b e

a v a i la b le if I d o n o t c a n c e l t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o n e x t w e e k t h e b e s t y o u c a n d o is t o b e

a v a i la b le o n Tu e s d a y b u t th a t w o u l d e n t a i l c a n c e l li n g t h e a p p o in t m e n t
with …
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u s a i d p r o b a b l y t h a t is o u t G a u t e n g .
MR MOLEF E: Out of Gauteng.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Look I – I think that we can make a plan for

another day without needing you to cancel any appointment so I think
w e c a n a c c e p t t h a t n e x t w e e k is g o i n g to b e d i ffic u lt f o r y o u . A n o th e r
date must be arranged for – on another week not next week then. That
is f in e . T h a t is f i n e . B u t l e t u s l o o k a t – h o w m u c h ti m e d o y o u t h i n k
you need for us to…
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A b o u t t w e n ty m i n u t e s m o r e M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t w e n t y m i n u t e s . W o u l d t h a t b e fi n e w i t h y o u M r
M o le f e – t w e n ty m i n u t e s .
M R M O L E F E : T h a t w o u ld b e f in e w i t h m e C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But maybe let us take a short break and then

c o m e b a c k . T h a t is fi n e . S a y a b o u t fiv e m i n u t e s r e a l ly. W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
MEETING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r S o n i .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Mr C h a ir p e r s o n a g a i n I a p o l o g i s e b u t i t j u s t s e e m s
t h a t t h e s e a r e s h o r t q u e s t io n s .

I t w o u l d – I a m h o p i n g to t r y a n d

p r e s e n t a s c o m p l e t e a p i c t u r e a b o u t t h e t w o m e e t in g s a s p o s s ib l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V VA S S O N I S C : Mr M o le f e a t t h e m e e ti n g w i th t h e To p 6 y o u d id i n
a s e n s e i n d i c a t e ( in d is ti n c t) t h e m a t t e r s t h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r h a d
raised?
M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w o n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s I w a n t e d t o a s k y o u is I
10

mean

th e n

we

know

that

you

would

have

talked

about

m a la d m i n i s t r a t io n , c o r r u p ti o n a n d s o o n . D i d y o u t e ll t h e m s o m e o f t h e
a m o u n ts i n v o lv e d ?

Fo r e x a m p l e y o u m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r t o d a y th e

S iy a n g e n a c o n tr a c t in t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t a t t h a t t i m e w a s
R 1 . 9 5 b i lli o n . D i d y o u i n d i c a t e t o th e To p 6 t h a t y o u k n o w w e a r e n o t
d e a li n g w it h s m a ll – s m a ll a m o u n ts o f m o n e y ?
M R M O L E F E : I w o u ld n o t h a v e g iv e n th e a c c o u n t o f e v e r y a m o u n t b u t I
w o u ld h a v e g iv e n e x a m p le s o f th e m .

F o r e x a m p l e th is R 1 . 9 b il li o n i n

t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t w a s th e r e .

A n d t h e a p p r o x i m a te ly R 4

b i ll io n r e l a t i n g to th e B r a a m f o n t e i n D e p o t m o d e r n i s a t io n b e c a u s e
20

a lr e a d y th a t h a d a r is e n b y N o v e m b e r a n d F e b r u a r y – N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4
a n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 . T h o s e fi g u r e s w e w e r e a w a r e o f t h e m a n d I w o u l d
h a v e m e n ti o n e d – n o t c o n c l u s iv e l y w it h r e g a r d to e v e r y o t h e r f i g u r e
b e c a u s e t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s b y W e r k s m a n s w a s s ti ll c o n ti n u i n g .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u w o u l d o b v i o u s l y h a v e t o ld t h e m a b o u t t h e
S w if a m b o c o n tr a c t w h i c h a t th a t s t a g e w a s m a r k e d a t a b o u t R 3 . 5

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
b i ll io n ?
MR MOLEFE:

I did.

I d i d C h a ir p e r s o n .

B e c a u s e b y th a t t i m e t h e

C h a ir m a n o f a c o m p a n y c a l le d S w i fa m b o c o n c e r n e d t h a t a s t h in g s
u n r a v e ll e d h e w a s g o i n g to l o s e e v e r y th in g t h a t h e w o r k e d h a r d f o r a n d
h e w i ll s a y I d o n o t w a n t to l o s e e v e r y t h i n g b e c a u s e o f S w if a m b o .
S w if a m b o w a s in v i t e d i n t o i t r e c e n tl y.

H e t h e n d is c l o s e d t o u s th e

m o n i e s t h a t t h e y w e r e p a y in g to in d iv i d u a ls w h o p u r p o r te d to b e
c o l l e c ti n g t h e m o n e y o n b e h a l f o f t h e r u li n g p a r ty. S o b y t h a t ti m e t h a t
w a s k n o w n a n d I t h i n k – l e t m e n o t s a y I t h i n k . B y th e ti m e I a g r e e d
10

w i t h t h e Tr e a s u r e r G e n e r a l o f th e p a r t y a b o u t a d d r e s s i n g t h e To p 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To p 6 .
MR MOLEFE:

H e w a s a w a r e o f w h a t w a s e m e r g i n g a n d r e l a te d to

S w if a m b o a n d Si y a n g e n a a n d o t h e r t h i n g s p e r t a in in g to y o u r Pr o d i g y
a n d S tr a w b e r r y W o r x .

B e c a u s e th o s e w e r e a lr e a d y e m e r g i n g a t t h a t

ti m e . O f c o u r s e o n e o f th e r e a s o n s I m e t w i t h h i m w a s t o s a y, h e y y o u
– y o u – c o m r a d e y o u a r e t h e Tr e a s u r e r G e n e r a l o f t h e p a r ty t h e s e
p e o p l e a r e s a y i n g t h e y w e r e c o l l e c ti n g m o n e y f o r t h e p a r ty, d o y o u
k n o w t h e m ? B e c a u s e in i ti a l ly h e d i d n o t k n o w t h e m s o t h a t w a s r e a l ly –
it i s n o r m a l to d o s o t o e s t a b l is h t h e fa c t .
20

O f c o u r s e t h e ir r e s p o n s e

w a s t h a t – h i s i n i ti a l r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t h e d id n o t k n o w th e m . A n d h e
d i d n o t r e c e iv e a n y m o n e y fr o m t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y i n it i a l a n d fi n a l ly ?
MR MOLEFE:

W e ll t h e – t h e – l a t e r o n t h e r e is a p r o b le m o f E n g li s h

o n e n e e d s to b e c a r e f u l w h e n ta lk in g t o t h e l a w y e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I k n o w E n g li s h is n o t o u r l a n g u a g e .

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MR MOLEFE:

B u t th e y – la t e r o n f o r e x a m p le h e d i d a d m i t th a t h e

knew some of the people. He did not say he got money from them. For
e x a m p l e a l a d y c a ll e d M a r i a G o m e z w h o w o u ld f e a t u r e p r o b a b l y i n th e
c o u r t a p p l ic a t i o n s o r m a y b e e v i d e n c e b y o t h e r w it n e s s e s fr o m A n g o l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : W h e r e h e s a id t h a t is ( i n d i s ti n c t) fr ie n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k I ( i n d i s t i n c t) i n s o m e s ta t e m e n ts a b o u t …
MR MOLEFE:

A n d w i t h r e g a r d t o M r M o o d le y h e s a y s h e m ig h t n o t

k n o w h i m b u t h e is a c o m r a d e y o u k n o w. H e s u p p o r t s …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p a r ty.
M R M O L E F E : T h e p a r ty a n d s o o n . H e d i d n o t s a y h e g a v e u s m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s h e s a i d h e s u p p o r ts t h e p a r ty.
M R M O L E F E : J a h e s u p p o r ts t h e p a r t y. A n d I s a i d , h e y m a n y o u k n o w I
h a v e b e e n in t h i s m o v e m e n t f o r m a n y y e a r s n o w h e r e d id I c o m e a c r o s s
h i m e v e n w h e n I w a s w o r k i n g i n – i n w h a t i s t o d a y c a l le d K w a Z u l u N a t a l
w h e n I w o r k e d i n D u r b a n , a ll t h o s e t o w n s h i p s th e r e – L a m o n tv i ll e , K w a
M a s h u , C l e r m o n t a ll o f th o s e p la c e s I n e v e r c a m e a c r o s s h i m b u t y o u
s e e i f y o u s a y h e is I d o n o t e x p e c t to h a v e k n o w n e v e r y b o d y. A l l I c a n
s a y is th a t h e w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n p r o m in e n t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w g o i n g n o w b a c k t o t h e m e e t in g o f th e To p 5
/ To p 6 is th e r e r o o m f o r a n y m e m b e r o f t h e To p 6 w h o a t te n d e d t h a t
m e e ti n g w h e n y o u a d d r e s s e d t h e m – is t h e r e r o o m f o r a n y m e m b e r o f
t h e To p 6 w h o a t te n d e d th a t m e e t in g t o s a y Mr M o l e f e d i d n o t g i v e u s
t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th e r e w a s r e a lly s e r i o u s s i t u a t io n o f c o r r u p t io n a n d
m a la d m i n i s t r a t io n in v o lv e d i n P R A S A t h a t t h e B o a r d w a s tr y i n g to f i g h t

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
a g a in s t o r i n v e s t ig a t e .

Is t h e r e – w o u l d t h a t b e r o o m f o r a n y b o d y t o

say that?
M R M O L E F E : C h a ir p e r s o n o b v i o u s ly th a t is w h a t is – m i g h t g o o n t h e
m i n d o f a n in d iv i d u a l a n d it w o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r i ly b e t r u e w h e r e I
s u p p o s e h e c a n w a n t t o s a y t h a t b u t i t is n o t g o i n g h e l p b e c a u s e if y o u
s a y a t t h e ti m e w h e n h e s p o k e to u s w e w e r e n o t a w a r e t h a t t h is
c o r r u p ti o n w a s s o b a d t h e y c a n n o t s a y t h e s a m e a b o u t t h e s u b s e q u e n t
m o n th s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
10

M R M O L E F E : Ev e n N k a n d l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : S o t h a t is t h e p r o b l e m th e y w o u ld h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t w h a t y o u c a n s a y is , b a s e d o n w h a t y o u t o ld
them.
MR MOLEF E: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e s h o u l d b e n o b o d y w h o c a n s a y th a t?
MR MOLEF E: There should be nobody who can say that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR

20

MOLEFE:

Because

th e

a p p l ic a ti o n

of

th e

P u b li c

F in a n c e

M a n a g e m e n t t h a t o u r d u t y to ( i n d i s t i n c t) t h e c o n s t i tu t io n o f a c o u n tr y
a n d o t h e r r e l a t e d le g i s l a ti o n w e r e p r e d i c a t e d u p o n th e m a l fe a s a n c e t h a t
I w a s s a y in g i s c o m in g o u t o f o u r i n v e s t i g a t io n s a n d P R A S A a n d t h e
fi n d i n g s o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r s o t h e y c a n n o t s a y th e y k n e w n o t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

T h e y w o u l d t h e n h a v e t o e x p l a i n t o m e w h y – in t h a t

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c o n te x t d i d I s a y I w a s g o i n g t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : A c t a n d a p p l y t h e P u b li c F i n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s p r o m p t in g y o u ?
MR MOLEF E: Ja what was…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M O L E F E : T h e y w o u l d h a v e a d i ffic u l t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o , n o . A g a in y o u k n o w w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t
t h e p a r a s t a ta l – I m e a n t h e s t a te o w n e d e n ti ti e s y o u – w e a ll r e a d w h a t
10

w e r e a d a b o u t th e s t a t e o f P R A S A a t t h e m o m e n t a n d o n e is b o u n d t o
lo o k b a c k a n d w h e n o n e h e a r s a b o u t t h i n g s th a t w e r e h a p p e n in g d u r in g
the years when you were Chairperson of the Board and the things that
m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d b e fo r e y o u r ti m e o n e is b o u n d t o s a y c o u l d i t b e
t h a t i f s o a n d s o a n d s o a n d s o a n d s o a n d s o h a d g iv e n s u p p o r t a n d
d o n e t h e r i g h t t h i n g c o u l d it b e t h a t t h i s c o u ld h a v e b e e n a v o i d e d
m a y b e P R A S A w o u l d b e in a b e t te r p o s i ti o n t o d a y ?
M R M O L E F E : My a n s w e r is i n t h e a ffir m a t iv e M r C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

20

A n d e i s h I m u s t a ls o s a y th a t i t m u s t b e a d i ffic u lt

w i t n e s s fo r t h i s C o u n s e l i t c a n n o t b e ( in d is ti n c t) ( m u m b l in g ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w e a p p r e c i a te .
M R M O L E F E : I k n o w I w a s g iv e n t h is d i ffi c u l t y t o M r P r e t o r i u s a s w e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

I – I w r o t e t o l e a d e r s o f m y p a r ty f ir s t ly I w r o t e to th e

D e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t j u s t b e f o r e I l e f t t h e o ffi c e a s C h a i r – C h a ir p e r s o n o f

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P R A S A I i d e n ti fi e d th e c r i ti c a l c h a ll e n g e s w h ic h w e r e f a c i n g th a t
c o m p a n y a n d I a s k e d h i m a n d t h e g o v e r n m e n t to i n te r v e n e t o g e t t h i n g s
b a c k o n tr a c k . O n e o f t h e is s u e s I r a is e d w a s t h a t h e r e i t is n o w t h e
B o a r d h a s b e e n m a d e d y s f u n c ti o n a l , in d iv i d u a ls in t h e B o a r d w e r e
( in d is ti n c t) t o r e s i g n .

S o m e o f t h e m r e s ig n e d .

The Minister of

Tr a n s p o r t is h o l d i n g b a c k h is n o m i n e e o n t h e B o a r d b e c a u s e f o r h i m i t
is

i m p o r ta n t t h a t t h e

Board

should

not have

a

quorum.

The

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y r e s ig n e d a n d in a ll f a ir n e s s i n my
s t a te m e n t i t i s n o t c l e a r w h a t w a s t h e c a u s e o f h is r e s i g n a t io n b u t i n
10

f a ir n e s s t o h i m h e d i d n o t r e s i g n b e c a u s e h e w a s b e i n g lo b b i e d .

He

r e s ig n e d b e c a u s e h e c e a s e d t o b e a n e m p l o y e e o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
N o w h a v in g r e s ig n e d h e c o u l d n o t r e p r e s e n t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y o n t h e
Board of PRASA.
CHAIRPERSON: PRASA.
M R M O L E F E : B u t i t – b u t it m e a n t t h a t a r e p l a c e m e n t c o u l d b e f o u n d
e a s i ly b e c a u s e y o u j u s t n o m i n a t e a n d s e n d o n e o f t h e s e n io r e m p l o y e e s
t o th e B o a r d . B u t i t w a s n o t i n th e i n t e r e s t o f t h e n e w M i n is te r t h e n t o
m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e is a q u o r u m a n d t h e B o a r d c a n f u n c t i o n f u l ly.
B e c a u s e t h e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e fu n c t io n e d n o tw i th s t a n d i n g t h e f a c t t h a t
20

a f e w i n d i v i d u a ls h a d r e s ig n e d h a v i n g b e e n p e r s u a d e d b e c a u s e o th e r s
r e fu s e d t o r e s i g n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t d e s p i t e t h e o ff e r s w h ic h w e r e m a d e to t h e m t h a t

lo o k w e w i ll g iv e y o u a n o th e r p o s i ti o n , m o n e y y o u w i ll n o t b e
( in d is ti n c t) to t h i s b y r e s ig n in g fr o m t h is o n e . T h e y s ta y e d o n . S o h a d

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the

M i n i s te r

d is c h a r g e d

h e r c o n s ti t u t i o n a l d u t y a s a n

e x e c u tiv e

a u t h o r i ty r e s p o n s i b l e f o r o v e r s ig h t o n P R A S A t h e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e
c o n ti n u e d t o o p e r a t e b u t h e d id n o t d o s o .

S o I s a i d to th e D e p u t y

P r e s i d e n t y o u g o t t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e r e is a p r o p e r B o a r d . Yo u h a v e
g o t t o g e t t h e G r o u p C E O f o r – fo r t h e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e t h a t t o o w a s
b e i n g ( i n d i s t i n c t) .

S o t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f c r i t ic a l i s s u e s t h a t I h a d

r a i s e d s o n o b o d y c a n s a y t h e y w e r e n o t a w a r e o f p r o b le m s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u h a v e a c o p y o f th e l e t te r t h a t y o u s a y y o u

s e n t t o th e D e p u ty – t h e n D e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t ?
10

M R M O L E F E : I t h i n k I fo u n d i t b u t w h a t I f o u n d w a s a n u n s i g n e d c o p y.
I c a n n o t f in d t h e s i g n e d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u w o u l d k n o w i f i t – i t b a s ic a l ly i n s u b s t a n c e

t h e c o p y r e fl e c ts w h a t …
MR MOLEFE:

N o t h e s u b s ta n c e i s t h e s a m e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e s a m e j a . N o th a t w o u ld b e …
M R M O L E F E : I w i ll tr y a n d g e t i t f r o m P R A S A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If w e c a n g e t t h a t t h a t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t .
M R M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

B u t m a y b e fo r t h e s a k e c o m p l e t e n e s s d i d y o u

g e t a r e s p o n s e to t h a t le t t e r ?
M R M O L E F E : N o a c k n o w le d g m e n t. T h e y l it e r a l ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Nothing.
M R M O L E F E : T h e m a n y le t t e r s I w r o t e w h e t h e r t o P a r l i a m e n t o r t o th e
P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e , to S C O PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
M R M O L E F E : I r e c e iv e d n o r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e l l I k n o w t h a t in y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u d o ta lk

a b o u t t h e l e t t e r th a t y o u s a id y o u s e n t to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e
P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n Tr a n s p o r t a n d y o u d i d n o t g e t a r e s p o n s e a n d
t h e n y o u s e n t a le t t e r – a l s o s e n t a le t te r t o th e th e n s p e a k e r o f
P a r li a m e n t M s B a le k a M b e t e a n d y o u s a y y o u d i d n o t g e t a r e s p o n s e .
W h a t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i s w h e t h e r y o u d o a t t a c h c o p ie s o f t h o s e
le t t e r s b e c a u s e if y o u d o n o t b u t i f y o u c a n f i n d th e m it w o u l d b e
i m p o r t a n t.
10

M R M O L E F E : T h e le t t e r s …
CHAIRPERSON: They are here?
M R M O L E F E : T h e le t t e r s I c a n f in d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
MR MOLEFE:

But Counsel can indicate what – how much of that he

has got.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o t h a t is f in e .

No, no.

As long as they are

h e r e it is fi n e .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e y a r e a n n e x u r e M r C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. Thank you.
20

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I a m j u s t fi n a l ly f r o m m y s i d e M r M o le f e a t t h e

m e e ti n g w i th t h e To p 6 d i d y o u i n d ic a t e w h o t h e i n d i v i d u a l b e n e f ic i a r ie s
w e r e a n d y o u w i ll r e c a ll th a t t h r o u g h o u t th e w e e k t w o n a m e s h a v e
c r o p p e d u p a l l th e t i m e n a m e ly M r R o y M o o d l e y a n d M r M a k h e n s a
M a b u n d a . D i d y o u i d e n ti f y t h o s e p e o p l e t o t h e To p 6 w e l l t h e m e e ti n g
o f t h e To p 6 ?

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
M R M O L E F E : N o I – I d i d n o t d o s o C h a ir p e r s o n a n d n e it h e r w o u ld I
h a v e h a d th e m o ti v a t io n t o d o s o b e c a u s e w e a r e b u s y w i t h t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n . I f t h e m a t te r s a r e g o i n g t o r e s u l t in – i n li ti g a ti o n y o u d o
n o t s t a r t ta lk in g a b o u t t h e m u n ti l y o u r e a c h t h a t p o i n t . S o I d i d n o t .
A n d I d o n o t t h in k I m a d e a m is t a k e b y n o t m e n ti o n i n g t h e m .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o , n o I w a s j u s t f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p le t e n e s s a s
t o w h a t t h e y k n e w.
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i n r e la t io n – s o r r y – i n r e la t io n t o t h e m e e ti n g
10

o f th e 2 0 A u g u s t y o u s a y i t w a s d e s c r ib e d a s a p a r ty m e e ti n g in
o b v i o u s l y a n A N C m e e ti n g . W h o d e s c r ib e d i t a s th a t ?
M R M O L E F E : It w a s d e s c r ib e d a s m e e t i n g o f c o m r a d e s o f t h e A N C b y
t h e P r e s i d e n t o f th e A N C w h o a t t h a t ti m e w a s a ls o t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e
R e p u b l ic o f S o u th A fr ic a .
A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o a t t h a t m e e ti n g i t w a s q u i t e c le a r th a t th is i s a t
w h a t e v e r le v e l n o t a m e e ti n g o f o r g a n s o f s t a te o r m a t t e r s o f a n o ffi c i a l
n a t u r e i t w a s a p a r t y m e e t in g r e l a ti n g t o a n o r g a n o f s t a t e ?
M R M O L E F E : I t is s o C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e it w a s n o t o ffic i a l i f i t w a s
t h e e l e m e n t o f t h e s t a t e t h e o r g a n o f s t a te , t h e o ffi c i a l t h e M in is t e r

20

w o u ld h a v e h a d to s u b m i t a r e p o r t o r w o u l d h a v e h a d t o a s k m e t o
submit a report.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o n d e r w h y it m a y h a v e b e e n d e c i d e d t h a t i t s h o u l d
b e s e e n a s a p a r ty m e e t in g a p a r t fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t a s y o u i n d i c a t e d
c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s h a d b e e n e x p r e s s e d a t s o m e m e e t in g o f th e p a r ty fr o m
w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d b e c a u s e a s f a r a s h a v i n g th a t m e e t in g a s a n o ff ic ia l

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m e e ti n g o f o r g a n s o f s ta t e i f t h a t w a s w h a t w a s w a n te d it c o u ld h a v e
h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e a l l t h e r e l e v a n t fu n c t io n a r i e s w e r e th e r e i n t e r m s o f
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d w a s t h e r e , th e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t w h o m
t h e B o a r d r e p o r t e d w a s th e r e , t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y w a s t h e r e
a n d t h e n th e o th e r o n e w a s t h e M i n i s t e r i n t h e Pr e s i d e n c y. B u t t h a t is
s o m e t h i n g y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e to – to a n s w e r ?
M R M O L E F E : I w o u l d n o t k n o w w h y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : B u t a l l I c a n s a y i s th a t th e r e w o u l d p r o b a b l y b e n o o t h e r
10

r e a s o n s a v e to s a y t h a t t h o s e w h o c o n v e n e d t h e m e e ti n g d i d n o t w a n t
t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a s b y w a y o f r e c o r d b e c a u s e i f i t w a s a n o ffic i a l
m e e ti n g I w o u l d h a v e h a d t o g o a n d r e p o r t t o m y B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s a s
t h e B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s .
A n d i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m i n u t e d a n d I p r o b a b ly w o u ld

h a v e h a d to w r i te a p r o p e r r e p o r t .

S o p e o p le d o n ’ t w a n t t h a t t o le a d

a n y e v i d e n c e s o th e y w o u l d n o t w a n t i t t o b e a n o ff ic i a l s ta t e m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
20

I’ m n o t g o i n g to b e m u c h lo n g e r M r C h a ir p e r s o n

b u t th e s e a r e i s s u e s [ in d is ti n c t ] t o d is t in c t io n t h a t M r M o l e fe m a d e a n d
I’ ll j u s t r a i s e i t w i t h h i m . O n e o f th e is s u e s y o u r a i s e d M r M o l e f e , w a s
t h e d is ti n c t io n b e t w e e n t h e S t a te , f o r e x a m p le P R A S A a s a n o r g a n o f
S t a te a n d t h e p a r t y w h ic h g o v e r n e d t h e S t a te , t h a t’s t h e d is ti n c t io n y o u
made earlier in your evidence.
MR MOLEFE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w w h e n M r M o n t a n a c o m p l a i n e d th a t h e h a d

n o t b e e n c o n s u l t e d b e fo r e t h e B o a r d h a d b e e n a p p o i n te d w h a t w a s t h e
r e a c ti o n o f M in is t e r D i p u o P e t e r s , th e Pr e s id e n t a n d M i n i s t e r R a d e b e ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e w a s n o r e s p o n s e f r o m t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d Mr

R a d e b e b u t M i n is te r D i p u o P e t e r s s a i d , b u t y o u a r e a n e m p lo y e e o f a
c o m p a n y y o u c a n ’ t d e m a n d t h a t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t – y o u s h o u ld b e
in v o lv e d i n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e B o a r d . S o y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t h a t r i g h t ,
M i n is t e r P e t e r s d i d m a k e th a t p o in t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A c tu a lly I’ m g l a d t h a t M r S o n i h a s g o n e b a c k to i t

b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o a s k – I w a n t e d t o s a y, d i d M r M o n t a n a r e a lly s a y
t h a t , e v e n i n t h a t m e e t i n g , t h a t h e w a s n o t c o n s u l t e d b e fo r e y o u r B o a r d
w a s a p p o i n te d b e c a u s e i t s e e m s t o m e , m a y b e i t m i g h t b e t h e k i n d o f
t h i n g t h a t s o m e b o d y w o u ld s a y o u t s i d e o f a m e e ti n g i n v o l v i n g t h e
p e o p l e t h a t h e t h in k s s h o u l d h a v e c o n s u l t e d h i m b e c a u s e i t ’s s o m e k in d
o f c r i ti c is m a n d th o s e w o u l d b e t h e M i n is t e r, m a y b e t h e Pr e s i d e n t a s
w e ll , s o I w a s q u i t e s u r p r is e d th a t y o u s a i d , e v e n i n t h a t m e e ti n g h e
c o m p la i n e d t h a t h e h a d n o t b e e n c o n s u lt e d b e fo r e y o u r B o a r d w a s
appointed.
MR MOLEFE:

20

H e c o m p l a i n e d i n t h a t m e e ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h a t i s

p r e c i s e ly t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e M i n is t e r r e s p o n d e d to t h a t c o m p la in t i n
t h e m e e t i n g o t h e r w is e t h e r e w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a p la t f o r m to r e s p o n d
to that.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s b u t s h e w a s t h e o n l y o n e w h o … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

S h e is t h e o n ly o n e w h o s p o k e a b o u t it .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A n d i n r e s p o n s e t o w h a t s h e s a id w h a t w e r e t h e –

w h a t w a s t h e r e a c t io n fr o m P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a n d M i n is te r R a d e b e ?
MR MOLEFE:

M y r e c o ll e c ti o n is t h a t t h e y s a i d n o t h i n g a b o u t th a t

s p e c i f ic p o i n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , d i d Mr M o n t a n a r e s p o n d to th a t o r n o t o r d id h e

le a v e i t a t t h a t ?
MR MOLEFE:

I th i n k h e le f t it – h e w a s h a p p y w it h t h a t d e t a il e d r e p o r t

t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

Ye s t h a t y o u h a d g iv e n .

J u s t h is v i e w s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u s a i d e a r li e r o n th a t h e t o o k t h e [ in d is ti n c t ]

o f th e ti m e o f t h a t m e e ti n g i n p r e s e n t in g h is r e p o r t , i f I u n d e r s t o o d y o u
c o r r e c t ly a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y, m a y b e h e to o k – h e m u s t h a v e s p o k e n fo r
m o r e th a n a n h o u r p r e s e n ti n g h is r e p o r t o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e b u t w h a t
y o u r i m p r e s s i o n is th a t m o s t o f th e t i m e h e d i d – h e to o k q u it e s o m e
ti m e ?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s f a r m o r e t h a n a n h o u r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

Fa r m o r e t h a n a n h o u r ?

I t w a s m o r e t h a n t w o h o u r s , i t w a s a l o n g p r e s e n t a ti o n .

I s p o k e v e r y l i t tl e i n t h a t m e e ti n g s o d i d M i n is t e r J e ff R a d e b e a n d t h e
P r e s i d e n t , p r o b a b ly t h e o n ly o th e r p e r s o n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

W h o to o k s o m e t i m e .

B u t w a s n o t p r e p a r e d fo r t h e m e e ti n g b e c a u s e h e d i d n ’ t

k n o w w h a t t o e x p e c t b e c a u s e M i n i s t e r D i p u o P e t e r s [ in d i s ti n c t ] w h o
w o u ld h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g s h e h a d w i t h m e w it h M r

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
M o n ta n a , h e r c o n c e r n a b o u t th e r e l a t i o n s h i p a n d s o o n j a .

So I think

w e d i d h a v e a m e e ti n g e a r l y in J u ly o r i n J u n e b e tw e e n m e a n d Mr
M o n ta n a a t t h e r e s id e n c e o f t h e M i n i s t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – I d o n ’ t w a n t t o f o r g e t t h is p a r t , b e fo r e y o u c a m e

t o t h e m e e ti n g y o u o n ly k n e w th a t t h e m e e ti n g w a s a b o u t to b e – w a s
g o i n g t o b e a b o u t P R A S A a ff a ir s , n o t h in g m o r e s p e c i f ic ?
MR MOLEFE:

N o th i n g m o r e b e c a u s e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o n c e y o u g e t t h e r e – o n c e , o r a s y o u l e f t t h e

m e e ti n g w h a t w a s y o u r i m p r e s s i o n o f w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e t in g
10

w a s , h a v in g b e e n th e r e fo r h o u r s a n d h a v in g h e a r d w h o s p o k e a n d s o
o n , w e r e y o u a b le t o s a y, o k a y I t h i n k t h e r e a l p u r p o s e o f t h is m e e t in g
was A?
MR MOLEFE:

M y i m p r e s s i o n w h e n I le f t t h e m e e ti n g w a s , t h e r e a l

p u r p o s e o f th e m e e ti n g w a s t o g e t Mr M o n ta n a a s t h e G r o u p C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d I t h i n k t h e P r e s id e n t w a s b e i n g
u s e d , h o p e f u lly to i n ti m i d a t e m e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e t h e [i n d i s t i n c t ] o f
t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d y o u k n o w, i t ’s v e r y d i ff ic u l t fo r p e o p le t o s a y n o . S o I
think…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W h a t w a s th e p u r p o s e a s fa r a s y o u w e r e

concerned?
MR MOLEFE:

W e c a n e x p r e s s o u r s u s p ic io n s a b o u t w h o w a s b e h i n d i t

b u t it d o e s n ’ t h e l p i f y o u c a n ’ t c o ll a b o r a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t – j a o k a y t h a n k y o u .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :

T h e s e c o n d is s u e I w a n t to r a i s e a b o u t th a t

m e e ti n g , a b o u t w h a t M r M o n ta n a s a i d is , h e a l le g e d a t t h e m e e ti n g th a t

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
M i n is t e r D i p u o P e t e r s w a s tr y i n g t o g e t r i d o f h i m , n o w th a t ’s q u i t e a
s e r io u s c h a r g e a g a i n s t a s i t ti n g M i n i s t e r i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f t h e
President.

L e t m e a s k y o u , w h a t w a s h e r r e a c t io n t o t h a t , M in is t e r

Dipuo Peters?
MR MOLEFE:

I t h i n k M i n is t e r D ip u o P e t e r s t o o k u m b r a g e t o t h a t

a l le g a ti o n a n d p o i n te d t o t h e f a c t t h a t , t h a t m a t t e r w a s a m a t t e r t a k e n
b y t h e B o a r d a n d t h e f a c t t h a t – a d e c is io n ta k e n b y t h e B o a r d a n d t h e
f a c t th a t s h e a p p o i n t e d t h is B o a r d , h a d n o th in g t o d o w i t h a n y a g e n d a
t o r e m o v e th e G r o u p C E O . I s u p p o s e M r M o n ta n a p r o b a b ly w o u l d h a v e
10

n e e d e d t o s a y t o t h e M i n is t e r, y o u a c tu a l l y t o ld m e p r e v i o u s l y th a t y o u
d o n ’t w a n t m e . S o t h e d e c is io n th a t t h i s B o a r d h a s t a k e n , a c t u a l ly w a s
e v e n t u a t i n g th e o b j e c t iv e t h a t y o u h a d w h e n y o u s p o k e to m e b u t h e
d i d n ’ t s a y s o . [I n d i s t i n c t ] s a y y o u k n o w, t h e m a n n e r w h i c h y o u
a p p o i n t e d t h i s B o a r d a n d y o u r b r o u g h t in t h is C h a i r m a n o f t h e B o a r d – I
m u s t s a y o n a p u b l ic d o m a i n a s w e ll h e s a i d , t o g e t h e r w i t h t h o s e – M r
M o n ta n a , t h a t I a m t h e C h a ir m a n t h a t fi r e s G r o u p C E O ’s , I fi r e d th e
G r o u p C E O o f P e t r o S A , I h a d f ir e d t h e C E O o f t h e A r m a m e n ts
C o r p o r a ti o n o f S o u th A f r i c a , A R M S C O R a n d h e s a y s th e r e is t h i s
p a t t e r n a n d w h e r e v e r th is p e r s o n g o e s , h e d e s tr o y s S t a t e o w n e d

20

c o m p a n i e s a n d h e is i n te n t o n d e s tr o y i n g P R A S A .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
MR MOLEFE:

N o h e d i d n ’ t s a y i t i n th a t m e e ti n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

B u t h e d i d n ’ t s a y a t t h is m e e t in g ?

P u b li c D o m a in ?

I n th e m e d i a .

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

N o w w h a t w a s th e Pr e s i d e n t ’s r e a c ti o n t o Mr

M o n ta n a ’s a ll e g a t i o n a b o u t Mi n is t e r D ip u o ’s m o t iv e ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e Pr e s i d e n t k e p t q u i e t y o u w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d h i m

t o s a y, lo o k h e ’s a m e m b e r o f m y C a b in e t , i f in d e e d h e d i d t h a t ,
s o m e b o d y s h o u l d h a v e r e p o r t e d t h r o u g h th e p r o p e r c h a n n e l s , t h e
M i n is t e r – h e d i d n ’ t s a y a n y t h i n g . I t h i n k t h e o b je c t iv e o f th e m e e ti n g
a n d o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d – t h e M in is t e r a n d t h e Pr e s i d e n t w a s , lo o k , w e
h o p e t h a t t h i s m e e t in g w i ll c o n v i n c e th e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d to
r e s c i n d t h r o u g h w h a t e v e r m e c h a n is m s t h e d e c i s i o n th a t h i s B o a r d h a s
10

t a k e n a n d to s o m e e x t e n t h e p u t t h e M i n i s t e r u n d e r p r e s s u r e t o s a y, i t
is t h e d e s ir e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t th a t y o u s t o p – y o u r e v e r s e t h e d e c is i o n
o f t h e B o a r d b u t th e M in is t e r d id n ’ t w a n t t o g o t h a t r o u t e i t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n a v e r y u g l y s c e n e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o w a y i n w h ic h t h e B o a r d
o f D ir e c t o r s w o u ld m e e t a n d a ll o w a M i n is t e r, o u ts i d e t h e B o a r d o f
D ir e c t o r s t o r e v e r s e i t ’s d e c is io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s a i d , a n d y o u d o s a y i n y o u r

a ffi d a v i t b u t y o u s a id a l s o i n y o u r o r a l e v i d e n c e th a t t h e m e e t in g – t h a t
m e e ti n g e n d e d a t a b o u t 2 A M t h e f o ll o w i n g m o r n in g , n o w – a n d y o u s a i d
it h a d s t a r t e d a t a r o u n d 6 P M t h e p r e v io u s d a y o n th e 2 0 t h . S o i t s t a r te d
20

o n t h e 2 0 t h i t w e n t o n t o t h e 2 1 s t o f A u g u s t . N o w fr o m 6 P M o n t h e 2 0 t h
t o 2 A M o n t h e 2 1 s t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
MR MOLEFE:

I s e ig h t h o u r s .

CHAIRPERSON:

E i g h t h o u r s , n o w i f y o u a r e r i g h t in s a y i n g t h a t , i n

y o u r a n a ly s is , th a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t m e e t in g w a s t o g e t y o u t o b e
c o n v i n c e d t h a t M r M o n t a n a m u s t b e a l lo w e d b a c k a t P R A S A i t s e e ms

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t h a t , th e n th o s e w h o w e r e a t t e n d in g w e r e p r e p a r e d t o s t a y f o r q u i t e a
lo n g t i m e to tr y a n d a c h i e v e t h a t .
MR MOLEFE:

Th e y w e r e p r e p a r e d to s t a y fo r t h a t lo n g .

CHAIRPERSON:
former

CEO

A n d d u r in g th e p r o c e s s e v e r y b o d y h a d t o li s t e n t o a

of

th e

e n ti ty

speak

f o r,

you

s a y,

about

two

h o u r s … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
MR MOLEFE:

M o r e li k e g i v i n g a k e y n o t e a d d r e s s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

I’ m g o i n g t o e n d o n t h is n o t e Mr C h a i r p e r s o n . I f

t h is w a s a m e e ti n g – a n o ffic ia l m e e t i n g w h e r e d e c is i o n s w o u l d h a v e t o
b e r a t io n a l a n d s o o n a n d a d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n t h a t M r M o n t a n a s h o u l d
b e r e - a p p o in t e d , i n l a w, t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n g o o d g r o u n d s fo r r e v i e w
b u t l e t m e a c c e p t f o r a m o m e n t t h a t t h is w a s a d e c is i o n a m o n g
comrades.

W h a t I ’ m f a i li n g to u n d e r s t a n d is t h is , t h a t M r M o n t a n a

s a y s , h e d o e s n ’ t w a n t t o w o r k w i th t h e B o a r d b u t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e
m e e ti n g i s , h e m u s t c o m e b a c k a n d w o r k f o r t h e B o a r d , I m e a n , e v e n a
p a r t y – i f a p a r ty m a d e a d e c is i o n l ik e t h a t , m o s t p e o p l e w o u l d r e g a r d it
a s i r r a t io n a l , w o u ld y o u a g r e e w i th m e ?
MR MOLEFE:
20

T h a t is c o r r e c t b u t h o w m a n y r a ti o n a l d e c is i o n s h a v e

b e e n m a d e b y p e o p l e i n h i g h p o s i ti o n s .

The latest of that was a

M i n is t e r w a k i n g u p b e c a u s e p e o p le i n t h e p a r t y s a y, fir e t h e B o a r d a n d
t h e n s h e fir e s th e B o a r d a n d s h e g e ts i n t o tr o u b le . S o i t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n a n ir r a ti o n a l d e c i s i o n b u t i t d o e s n ’t f o ll o w t h a t t h o s e i n th a t
m e e ti n g w o u ld n o t h a v e d o n e s o . I n t h e f ir s t in s t a n c e it w a s ir r a t io n a l
t o e v e n b e g i n t o w a n t t o d i s c u s s t h e m a t t e r i n t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h i t

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
had been discussed. One would have expected that what would happen
is t h a t , e v e n i f i t w a s a d is c u s s i o n a b o u t t h e p a r ty – m e m b e r s o f th e
p a r t y, th e Pr e s id e n t w o u ld h a v e c a ll e d t h e M i n is t e r a n d a r ti c u la t e d w h a t
h is c o n c e r n s a n d f e a r s w e r e a n d w o u l d h a v e c a l l e d m e t o t a lk t o m e
a n d i n b o th i n s t a n c e s a t t e m p t t o g e t h o w w e a r e r e a c ti n g t o w h a t h e is
s a y in g .
done.

E v e n b e fo r e y o u t a k e i t t o a n o t h e r f o r u m b u t th a t w a s n o t
I t h i n k i t ’s li k e - t h is m e e t in g w a s l ik e s c h o o l k id s , le a r n e r s

b e i n g c a l l e d t o t h e o ffi c e o f t h e p r in c i p a l fo r t h e p r i n c i p a l t o r e a d th e
r io t a c t to t h e m u s i n g t h e o ff ic e – t h e s t a t u s o f t h a t o ff ic e t o g e t t h e m t o
10

r e v ie w t h e ir d e c is io n . S o t h a t I’ m s a y in g t h a t e v e n t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h
t h e m e e ti n g w a s c a ll e d w a s ir r a ti o n a l , i t w a s ir r a ti o n a l to h a v e M r
M o n ta n a p r e p a r in g a l o n g p r e s e n t a ti o n w h i c h n o b o d y w a s w a r n e d a b o u t
w h ic h – in a m e e t in g w h e r e n o b o d y e ls e w a s t o l d th a t t h e y n e e d e d t o
g iv e a n y p r e s e n ta t io n , th a t i n i ts e lf is ir r a t i o n a l C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I w a s n o t s u g g e s ti n g t h a t i t d i d n ’ t h a p p e n , w h a t

I’ m t r y in g to s u g g e s t is , a n d I’ m g o in g t o p u t th is t o y o u , o n e m u s t
q u e s t io n t h e b o n e f id e s o f th o s e t a k i n g t h a t d e c i s i o n , d o y o u a g r e e w i t h
m e b e c a u s e i f it ’s n o t i n t h e i n te r e s t o f t h e p a r t y h o w c a n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
MR MOLEFE:
20

Th a t i s s o , t h a t i s s o C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I ta k e i t t h a t M i n i s t e r R a d e b e w o u ld n o t h a v e

b e e n a t t h e m e e t in g o f t h e t o p s ix , to p fiv e th a t y o u a d d r e s s e d b e c a u s e
he was not part of the top six?
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

And therefore he would not have known what you told

t h e t o p s ix o n t h a t o c c a s i o n b u t t h e , t h e n Pr e s i d e n t , w a s a w a r e w h a t

Page 141 of 146

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
y o u to l d th e t o p s i x b e c a u s e t h is m e e ti n g o f t h e 2 0 t h o f A u g u s t
h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g t h a t y o u a d d r e s s e d o f t h e t o p s i x , i s th a t
r ig h t ?
MR MOLEFE:

I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , o k a y.

B u t I n e e d t o s a y C h a ir p e r s o n , th a t h e w a s n o t p r iv y t o

t h e d is c u s s i o n o f t h e to p s i x d o e s n ’ t p u t h i m i n a n y d i s a d v a n ta g e d
p o s i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , t e l l m e m o r e a b o u t t h a t .
B e c a u s e h e is in a C a b i n e t , h e w o r k s w i t h th e M i n i s t e r

o f Tr a n s p o r t , t h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t r e p o r ts r e g u l a r l y t o th e
P r e s i d e n t a n d t o th e e c o n o m i c c l u s t e r o n w h ic h M r R a d e b e w a s s i tt i n g .
S o – a n d b y t h e w a y C h a ir p e r s o n t h e is s u e s a b o u t P R A S A w e r e v e r y
p r o m in e n t i n t h e – fr o m t h e ti m e w h e n t h e c o m p la i n t s w e r e g iv e n to th e
P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a n d t h e in t e r i m r e p o r t is s u e d a n d s o o n a n d th e y
r e m a in e d – g o v e r n m e n t w o u ld h a v e t a k e n a n in t e r e s t i n th o s e m a t te r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u th in k t h a t h e p r o b a b l y k n e w e n o u g h , y o u s a y

he must have known enough to be able to say that we should not be
tr y i n g t o g e t t h e B o a r d t o c h a n g e it s d e c is i o n .
20

MR MOLEFE:

[ I n d is ti n c t ] i s a M i n i s t e r, h e s h o u l d k n o w t h a t o n e d o e s

n o t d o t h a t. H e h a d b e e n t h e M i n is t e r o f P u b li c E n t e r p r is e s s o
e x e r c is i n g o n t h e s id e o f m a n y S t a te o w n e d c o m p a n i e s .

So he can’t

c la i m i g n o r a n c e o n is s u e s o f g o v e r n a n c e a n d t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n
S t a te o w n e d c o m p a n i e s a n d d i ffe r e n t m in is tr i e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

I h a v e n o f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s a t t h i s s t a g e Mr

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll s h o u l d n ’ t Mr M o le f e t e l l u s t h e e n d o f t h a t

m e e ti n g s o t h a t n e x t ti m e h e d e a l s w i t h o t h e r t h i n g s , s h o u l d n ’ t w e j u s t
fi n a l is e h o w t h a t m e e t in g e n d e d ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

A s i t p l e a s e s . M r M o le f e w e n o w k n o w w h a t t h e

p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e t in g w a s a n d s o o n , h o w d i d t h e m e e t i n g – w h a t w a s
t h e f o r m a l o u t c o m e a t t h e m e e ti n g o r t h e o u tc o m e i f t h e r e w a s n ’ t a
formal…[intervenes].
10

MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e w a s n o f o r m a l o u tc o m e C h a ir p e r s o n .

After I

c h a l le n g e d t h e P r e s i d e n t t o c o m e a n d a d d r e s s t h e B o a r d o f D ir e c to r s –
t h e B o a r d o f c o n tr o l o f P R A S A t o e x p l a i n w h y h e h a d a d i ff ic u l ty
a c c e p ti n g t h e d e c is i o n o f th e B o a r d o f c o n tr o l a n d h a v i n g s a id th a t I
w o u ld n o t c h a n g e th e d e c is io n o f t h e B o a r d o f D ir e c to r s a s a r e s u l t o f a
p r i v a t e m e e t i n g o f c o m r a d e s o u t s i d e g o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e B o a r d i ts e l f .
T h e Pr e s i d e n t w a s t ir e d s o h e f e l l a s le e p , th e m e e t in g j u s t e n d e d
a b r u p tl y li k e t h a t .

Th e r e w a s n o b o d y to s u m m a r i s e it w a s t h e p e r s o n

w h o c a l l e d a m e e t i n g n o w h a d f a l le n a s l e e p .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y is th e r e a n y t h i n g e ls e i n r e g a r d t o t h e m e e ti n g

t h a t y o u w a n t t o – th a t y o u d o n ’ t t h in k y o u h a v e n ’t to u c h e d u p o n t h a t
y o u w a n t to h i g h l ig h t s o t h a t n e x t ti m e y o u c o m e b a c k M r S o n i c a n
m o v e o n t o s o m e th i n g e l s e ?
MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n s a v e th e c o n c lu s i o n th a t , w h a t w a s q u i t e

a p p a r e n t i n t h a t m e e t in g a n d w h a t w a s a m a t t e r o f g r e a t c o n c e r n w a s
t h a t t h e h e a d o f t h e S t a te , t h e P r e s id e n t o f t h e R e p u b lic o f S o u t h A fr i c a

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r t y w h ic h is t h e c u s t o d i a n s o f a l l
t h e i n s tr u m e n t s o f g o v e r n m e n ts i n c l u d i n g th e c o n s t i tu t io n w a s n o w,
d ir e c t ly a t te m p t i n g t o i n t e r f e r i n g w i t h t h e m a t t e r s o f th e B o a r d o f
D ir e c t o r s o f P R A S A t h a t w a s r e a l ly o f g r e a t c o n c e r n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u . I h a d s a i d e a r li e r o n y o u s h o u l d

m a k e n o t e s in c a s e th e r e a r e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t y o u m i g h t w i s h t o
m e n ti o n w h ic h c o u n s e l m i g h t n o t h a v e a s k e d b u t b e c a u s e y o u w i ll c o m e
b a c k m a y b e y o u w a n t t o d e a l w it h t h o s e w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k b u t i f y o u
w a n t to d e a l w i th s o m e n o w, I g iv e y o u t h e o p p o r tu n it y.
10

MR MOLEFE:

C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u ld r a t h e r e l e c t to … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , t o d o i t n e x t t i m e .
To s le e p o v e r th e m a t t e r a n d i f t h e r e a r e t h e n I c a n

c o m e b a c k o n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I j u s t w a n te d t o k e e p m y p r o m is e t o y o u

b e c a u s e I h a d m a d e th a t u n d e r t a k in g .

M r S o n i , I t h i n k t h a t, i f a t a l l

p o s s i b le t h e r e s h o u ld n o t b e – w e s h o u ld n ’ t a ll o w a l o n g ti m e t o l a p s e
b e f o r e M r M o l e fe c o m e s b a c k , s u b j e c t to e v e r y o n e ’s s i t u a ti o n m a y b e w e
c o u l d l o o k a t t h e w e e k a ft e r n e x t a n d f in d a d a y, p r e f e r a b ly n o t a
M o n d a y b u t th a t i s – i f y o u c a n e x p l o r e o n e o f t h e d a te s w i th M r M o le f e
20

b u t a ls o w e m i g h t n o t n e e d h i m f o r a d a y i t m ig h t b e – I d o n ’ t k n o w
w h a t y o u r e s t i m a t e is , a n h o u r o r t w o h o u r s .
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

About two hours.

CHAIRPERSON:

A b o u t tw o h o u r s s o i ts s o m e ti m e s e a s ie r t o

a c c o m m o d a t e a s h o r te r ti m e t h a n a w h o le d a y. S o a t t h is s t a g e M r

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13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
M o le f e y o u d o n ’t k n o w h o w y o u r s it u a ti o n m i g h t b e d u r i n g th a t w e e k ?
Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e t o c o m m i t y o u r s e l f I j u s t w a n t t o k n o w … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
MR MOLEFE:

O n r e fl e c ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n I th i n k i f I k e e p my t w o

c o m m i t m e n ts t h e n I c a n a p p e a r h e r e o n – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t t h e d a t e
w i ll b e , o n t h e W e d n e s d a y o f n e x t .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , W e d n e s d a y n e x t w e e k .
I ’l l c o m e f o r – I ju s t w a n t t o s e e m y o r t h o p a e d ic a n d

then come back.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s o k a y n o t h a t’s f in e I t h i n k t h a t s h o u l d b e fi n e

with us.
A D V VA S S O N I S C :

M r C h a i r p e r s o n w e w i ll fo r m a l is e w it h M r M o l e f e

w h a t i t i s a n d w e w il l o b v i o u s ly a c c o m m o d a t e h i m a s [ i n d is ti n c t ] o n
W e d n e s d a y t h a t s u it s h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y, n o th a t ’s f in e . S o I ’ m h a p p y a s l o n g a s i t ’s

s o m e t h i n g t h a t is n o t t o o in c o n v e n i e n t t o y o u , I’ m v e r y c o n s c i o u s o f th e
f a c t t h a t – I t h in k la s t ti m e y o u m a y h a v e s p e n t t w o o r th r e e d a y s in th e
C o m m i s s i o n , th is ti m e y o u ’ v e s p e n t t h r e e d a y s a lr e a d y s o w e d o n e e d
t o g i v e y o u s o m e a c c o m m o d a ti o n in te r m s o f d a te s , t h e C o m m i s s i o n
h a s t a k e n a lo t o f y o u r ti m e .
20

MR MOLEFE:

I w a s t e l li n g c o u n s e l t h a t i t’s n o t a b i g d e a l to m e

b e c a u s e I h a d t o g i v e e v i d e n c e i n t h e D e l m a s tr e a s o n tr i a l f o r t h e
w h o le m o n t h a n d I s a y w h o l e m o n th , m e a n i n g a ll fo u r w e e k s a p p e a r in g
every

d a y,

cross-examined

for

three

weeks

by

E v i d e n c e in c h ie f f o r a w e e k s o I k n o w t h e s e th i n g s .

Page 145 of 146

senior

counsel.

13 MARCH 2020 – DAY 223
CHAIRPERSON:

J a s o t h is is r e a ll y n o t m u c h c o m p a r e d to t h a t a n d o f

c o u r s e th a t w a s h o s ti le a t m o s p h e r e I g u e s s .
MR MOLEFE:

Th a t i s tr u e .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s o k a y b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v i n g

c o m e to g iv e e v i d e n c e o n c e a g a in a n d th a t y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e t o s t a y
f o r a l i tt l e l o n g e r b e y o n d 4 o ’ c l o c k b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d to f in is h a
certain section of your evidence. We are going to adjourn and then on
M o n d a y M r S o n i , w i ll i t b e M r Ac h m a t ?
A D V VA S S O N I S C :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ms N g o y i fr o m P R A S A , w e ’r e c o n t in u in g w i t h P R A S A .

A D V VA S S O N I S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n i t w il l b e Ms N g o y i .

Ye s .
O k a y n o t h a t ’s f in e t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h w e ’l l

a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y a n d o n M o n d a y w e ’l l s t a r t a t n o r m a l t i m e 1 0 o ’
c lo c k , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 6 M A R C H 2 0 2 0

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