C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

13 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 6 3

20

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE ON 13 SEPT EMBER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a i r I b e g l e a v e t o h a n d u p th e p r o p e r ly
p a g in a t e d b u n d l e fo r t h i s m o r n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Th a t w il l – m a y i t b e

e n t e r e d i n t o th e r e c o r d a s E x h i b it C C 3 6 ?
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e fi le c o n t a i n i n g t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M r G a r th

S tr a c h a n w il l b e m a r k e d Ex h i b it C C 3 6 .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. B e f o r e w e d e a l w i t h t h e
w i t n e s s C h a ir j u s t i f I m a y ju s t h a n d u p a le t t e r t h a t h a s b e e n r e c e i v e d
fr o m th e o ff ic e o f th e S ta t e A t t o r n e y i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e w i t n e s s M in is t e r
N d l o d l o th a t w a s g o in g t o c o m e t h is m o r n i n g .
r e p r e s e n t e d C h a ir.

M i n i s t e r N d lo d lo i s

I w o u l d l ik e M s G c i li s h e t o p u t h e r s e l f o n r e c o r d .

Thank you.
20

A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E :

G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : I a m A d v o c a t e U n a t h i G c i li s h e I a p p e a r w i t h
A d v o c a t e Te r r y M o t a u S C . A d v o c a te M o t a u i s u n f o r tu n a te ly n o t a b l e t o
c o m e t h is m o r n in g ; h e d o e s s e n d h is a p o l o g i e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 2 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : C h a ir w e w e r e b r o u g h t o n b r ie f y e s te r d a y i n
t h is m a t t e r a n d w e s e e k t i m e t o c o n s u l t w i t h o u r c li e n t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s
o f a s s is t in g w i t h t h e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s t h a t w ill b e m a d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E: I t h a s b e e n a g r e e d w i t h t h e e v id e n c e le a d e r s
t h a t w e b e g r a n t e d a t w o w e e k e x t e n s io n f o r t h e m a k i n g o f t h e
n e c e s s a r y s u b m is s i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e l l fr o m w h a t I h a v e b e e n t o ld w h a t t h e

M i n is t e r is s u p p o s e d t o c a n v a s s s o m e t h in g t h a t a p p e a r s to b e q u i t
10

n a r r o w. I a m w o n d e r i n g w h y t w o w e e k s is n e c e s s a r y w h e n f r o m w h a t I
h a v e b e e n to l d s h e w o u ld h a v e b e e n r e a d y to d a y e x c e p t m a y b e s o m e
c o m m i t m e n ts a n d s o o n . D o y o u r e a ll y n e e d t w o w e e k s ?
A D V U N AT H I G C I LI S H E :

C h a ir w e h a v e n o t y e t c o n s u l te d w i t h th e

M i n is t e r t h a t i s b e i n g a r r a n g e d f o r t h e u p c o m in g w e e k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : T h e r e f o r e I c a n n o t r e a l ly s t a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t s a y ?
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

So you cannot say whether you need two weeks or

one week?
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E :

N o w e – w e … w e t h i n k tw o w e e k s is

r e a s o n a b l e i n th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s C h a ir b u t I c a n n o t s a y a n y th i n g le s s
t h a n th a t w o u l d b e s u ff ic i e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g h a s t h e M i n is t e r k n o w n a b o u t i t ? S h e h a s
known for some time.

Page 3 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir t h e r e w a s a p o i n t w h e n t h e M i n i s t e r
w a s i n d is p o s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I th i n k t h a t – th a t p e r i o d t h e n w e f e l t th a t
w e n e e d e d t o g iv e h e r e n o u g h t i m e t o r e c u p e r a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

After that yes.

And – but he – she has

b e e n v e r y c o o p e r a ti v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . A n d w e – i n f a c t s h e h a s
a c t u a ll y s e n t t h e c o m m is s i o n h e r d r a f t . E v e r y ti m e s h e w o r k e d o n a
d r a f t s h e s e n t t h o s e t o t h e c o m m is s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s h e h a s b e e n w o r k in g o n c e r t a i n fi le s ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S h e h a s y e s , y e s C h a ir. W e h a v e t h o s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h m e a n s i t s h o u l d b e e a s ie r t o f in a lis e a n

e x i s ti n g d r a f t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . U n le s s s h e w a n t s t o e x t e n d h e r

s c o p e C h a ir a n d d e a l w i th o th e r m a t t e r s . T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m i n c li n e d t o r a t h e r g iv e y o u a w e e k a n d i f y o u

r e a l ly g e t i n t o d i ff ic u l t ie s i n c o m p ly i n g t h e n y o u a p p r o a c h a n d t h e n I
c a n c o n s i d e r g iv i n g y o u m o r e , i s t h a t f in e ?
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : T h a t w i ll b e f in e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o …

Page 4 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s s a y y o u w il l tr y a n d – o r y o u fi le o r f in is h h e r
s t a te m e n t o r a ff i d a v i t o n o r b e f o r e F r i d a y n e x t w e e k .
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : T h a t w i ll b e F r i d a y th e 2 0 t h .
CHAIRPERSON:

If y o u r e a ll y r u n i n t o d i ff ic u l t ie s t h e n y o u a p p r o a c h

t h e c o m m i s s io n .
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : O k a y w e w ill d o s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V U N AT H I G C I L I S H E : T h a n k y o u .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir t h e

w i t n e s s th is m o r n in g i s M r S tr a c h a n t h e e v id e n c e o f th is w i t n e s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m s o r r y th is l e t te r fr o m th e S t a te A t t o r n e y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t a n y th i n g t h a t I n e e d to k n o w a b o u t n o w o r I c a n
r e a d la t e r ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o C h a ir n o y o u m a y r e a d i t l a t e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir t h is w it n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e is
r e l e v a n t i n th e s e n s e th a t S A B S C h a ir w o u ld r e c a ll h a s b e e n m e n t io n e d
a s b e in g o n e o f t h e s ta k e h o l d e r s b y M r J a n s e n Va n Vu u r e n a n d a ls o
y e s t e r d a y ’s w i t n e s s M r R o y K r u g e r th a t S A B S S o u t h A fr ic a n B u r e a u o f
S t a n d a r d s w a s – i s p a r t o f t h e s t a k e h o ld e r s t h a t h a d t o w o r k o n t h e s e ttop boxes.

H is e v id e n c e a l s o b e c o m e s r e le v a n t b e c a u s e t h e n e x t

Page 5 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
w i t n e s s t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o c a ll w h e n t h e C h a ir a l lo c a t e s u s a d d i ti o n a l
ti m e D o c to r B o lo k a a c tu a lly d e a l s w i t h l o c a l c o n t e n t a n d t h o s e a r e
m a t t e r s t h a t S A B S d e a ls w i t h . Fo r t h a t r e a s o n t h e r e f o r e C h a ir I w o u l d
lik e y o u t o r e c e iv e h is e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h a t o f D o c to r B o l o k a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . O h s o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready that …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e b e – th a t t h e o a t h b e a d m i n is te r e d o r a ff ir m a ti o n .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s m a y h e b e s w o r n i n ? T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r n a m e a n d fu ll n a m e s fo r t h e r e c o r d ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : G a r t h [i n d is t in c t ] S tr a c h a n .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s o le m n ly a ffi r m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g i v e

t o d a y w il l b e t h e tr u t h ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o
p l e a s e s a y, I tr u l y a ff ir m ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : I tr u ly a ffi r m .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u .
20

M r S t r a c h a n y o u h a v e a d o c u m e n t th a t is p la c e d i n a p r e s e n t a ti o n f il e
in fr o n t o f y o u a n d i t is m a r k e d Ex h ib i t C C 3 6 , d o y o u h a v e t h a t ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : I d o [ in d i s ti n c t ] .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i f y o u p a g e t h r o u g h th e r e y o u w il l – o n
p a g e 1 o f t h a t t h e ir n a m e s G a r t h S t r a c h a n is t h a t y o u r s t a t e m e n t ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s .

Page 6 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O h s o r r y y o u r m i c r o p h o n e is o ff .

I beg

your pardon.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C o u n s e l l o r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o y o u a n s w e r t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n i f y o u c o u l d p le a s e
t u r n to p a g e 5 o f t h a t s t a te m e n t . Is t h a t y o u r s i g n a tu r e th a t a p p e a r s o n
10

that page?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : I t i s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . D id y o u m a k e t h is – a r e t h e c o n te n ts
o f t h i s s ta t e m e n t f ir s t tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d y o u m a d e th is s t a t e m e n t a t t h e

r e q u e s t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s o f th e c o m m i s s io n ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

C o u l d y o u ju s t fo r th e

r e c o r d p la c e y o u r q u a li fi c a t io n s p l e a s e ?
20

MR GARTH STRACHAN:

I h o ld a M a s t e r ’s D e g r e e i n Sc ie n c e a n d

P u b l ic P o l ic y fr o m L o n d o n U n i v e r s i t y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I f y o u c o u l d j u s t tr y a n d s p e a k u p a
li t tl e . Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN: Sure.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O r m a y b e j u s t – ja – t h a t s h o u l d w o r k

Page 7 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
thank you.

Yo u a r e c u r r e n tl y o c c u p y i n g a p o s i ti o n a s a c ti n g C h ie f

E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r o f th e S o u t h A f r i c a n B u r e a u o f S t a n d a r d s , is th a t
correct?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h a t is n o r ma ll y r e f e r r e d t o a s S A B S ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

W h e n w e r e y o u a p p o in t e d t o th is

p o s i ti o n ?
MR GARTH STRACHAN: In June 2018.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 2 0 1 8 ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d y o u ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
w h a t w a s S A B S r o l e – y o u d o m a k e t h a t p o in t in y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t
y o u a r e a p p o i n t e d a f te r t h e a c tiv e r o l e o f S A B S h a d t a k e n p l a c e .

So

y o u r e v id e n c e is b a s e d o n t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u
h a v e r e c e iv e d fr o m t h o s e w h o a r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h a t r o l e , is t h a t
correct?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s . N o w c o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t i s t h e r o l e o f S A B S g e n e r a l ly ? W h a t d o e s S A B S d o ?
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

C h a i r p e r s o n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n B u r e a u o f

S t a n d a r d s is t h e o n ly n a ti o n a l s t a n d a r d b o d y i n S o u t h A fr ic a m a n d a t e d
in t e r m s o f le g is l a ti o n th e s t a n d a r d s a c ts w h ic h a r e s e t o u t i n m y
s t a te m e n t i n o r d e r t o u n d e r t a k e b r o a d ly s p e a k i n g fu ll f u n c t io n s . T h a t is
t h e s e t t in g o f S o u t h A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l S t a n d a r d s w h i c h a r e e i t h e r

Page 8 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
standards

w h ic h

are

home

grown

or

w h ic h

amended

fr o m

the

in t e r n a t io n a l s t a n d a r d s o r g a n is a ti o n w h ic h w e a r e a m e m b e r o f . S A B S
a ls o u n d e r ta k e s c e r t if ic a ti o n t o a s ta n d a r d w h ic h is a p r o c e s s a t t h e
e n d o f w h i c h a n y c o m p a n y w h ic h r e q u ir e s c e r t i fic a ti o n is is s u e d w i t h a
c e r t if ic a te a n d th e n t h e c o m p a n y b e i n g in p o s s e s s i o n o f a c e r t if ic a te is
a b l e t o p l a c e w h a t i s c a ll e d a S A B S m a r k o n i ts p r o d u c t w h i c h e n s u r e s
t h a t t h a t c o m p a n y – t h a t p r o d u c t p u r c h a s e d b y a n y m e m b e r o f p u b li c
h a s b e e n c e r ti f ie d t o a n a t io n a l s t a n d a r d w h ic h c a n b e a p r o d u c t o r a
s y s te m s c e r t if ic a ti o n .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : A n d t h e n S A B S o p e r a t e s t e s ti n g l a b o r a t o r ie s
w h ic h t e s t i n a v a r i e t y o f w a y s b u t i n t h i s c o n t e x t t h e y t e s t to a
c e r t if ic a ti o n .

S o i f a p r o d u c t r e q u ir e s t e s ti n g f o r a n y c h a r a c t e r i s tic

t h e n t h a t p r o d u c t i s te s t e d b y o u r l a b o r a t o r ie s . A n d t h e f o u r t h e l e m e n t
of the

SABS

l e g is l a t iv e

mandate

is

to

undertake

local

content

v e r i fic a ti o n o n b e h a l f o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t o f S o u t h A fr i c a f o r w h ic h S A B S
h a s e s t a b li s h e d t h e r e q u is it e c a p a c i ty a n d a c c r e d it a ti o n t o u n d e r t a k e
lo c a l c o n t e n t v e r if ic a ti o n t o a s t a n d a r d .

In this case the standard is

SANS, SAN S 1286.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

M a ’a m t h a t w o u ld b e a s u m m a r y o f t h e

le g i s l a tiv e m a n d a t e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . J u s t to r e m in d y o u t h a t y o u a n s w e r
t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .
MR GARTH STRACHAN: I beg your pardon.

Page 9 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . Ye s . C o u l d y o u ju s t – le t
us just deal with the local content aspect?

S o w h a t is i t t h a t S A B S

u s u a ll y l o o k s f o r w h e n i t s a y s th a t I a m g o i n g t o t e s t fo r l o c a l c o n t e n t ,
what is it looking for?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : S o i f I m a y C h a ir p e r s o n g o b a c k s l i g h t ly. Th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y u n d e r th e P r e f e r e n ti a l P u b lic
P r o c u r e m e n t Fi n a n c e A c t a n d i ts r e g u la t i o n s d e s i g n a t e s p r o d u c ts f o r
lo c a l c o n t e n t t o a th r e s h o l d d e p e n d in g u p o n t h e c a p a b il i ti e s o f S o u t h
A fr ic a n in d u s tr y t o p r o d u c e a n y p r o d u c t . I n s o m e c a s e s i t m i g h t b e 1 0 0
10

in o th e r c a s e s i t m ig h t b e 3 0 % . A n d t h e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y i s s u e s a n
in s t r u c t i o n n o t e t o a ll S o u th A fr ic a n e n ti t i e s w h e n th e y a r e u n d e r t a k i n g
t e n d e r a n d p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s to e n s u r e t h a t th o s e d e s i g n a t e d
p r o d u c ts a r e p r o c u r e d in k e e p i n g w i t h th e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y I n s t r u c t i o n
N o t e , t h e D T I d e s i g n a t i o n a n d t h e S A N S 1 2 8 6 . S A B S is t h e n r e q u e s t e d
t o u n d e r t a k e l o c a l c o n te n t v e r i f ic a ti o n o f t h e c o m p a n i e s w h ic h w o u l d b e
p r o v i d in g g o o d s t o t h e s t a te a n d th a t lo c a l c o n t e n t v e r if ic a ti o n i s
undertaken to SANS 1286.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R G A R TH S T R A C H A N :

20

I n s o m e i n s t a n c e s a s ta n d a r d c a n b e

r e fe r e n c e d i n a p i e c e o f r e g u la t io n a n d i n t h a t c a s e t h e s t a te is – m u s t
e n s u r e t h a t w h e r e a s ta n d a r d i s r e f e r e n c e d in t h e r e g u l a ti o n a n y
p r o d u c t p r o v id e d to t h e s t a te h a s – c a r r ie s a S A B S m a r k .

In other

w o r d s i t h a s b e e n a u d i t e d a n d c e r t i fi e d t o a l o c a l c o n te n t t h r e s h o l d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

A n d i n s o fa r a s th e s e t- t o p

b o x e s is i t c o r r e c t th a t e v e n w i t h t h o s e S A B S w a s ta s k e d w i t h t h e

Page 10 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o c e r t if y th o s e s e t- u p b o x e s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o b e
s u p p li e d t o t h e v a r io u s h o u s e h o l d s ?
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

M a ’a m i f I m a y S A B S i n a n M O U w i t h t h e

D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d
I n d u s tr y w a s m a n d a t e d a s I s e t o u t in my s ta t e m e n t t o u n d e r ta k e
a m o n g s t o t h e r s t o u n d e r ta k e c o n f o r m it y a s s e s s m e n t o f s e t- to p b o x e s .
A n d i t e s t a b l is h e d a l a b o r a t o r y a n d t h e c a p a b i li t ie s t o d o th a t . W e d o
n o t a s a 3 B P u b li c e n ti t y c a r r y a c o m p l i a n c e m a n d a te . I n o t h e r w o r d s
w e c a n n o t s a y to D e p a r t m e n t X y o u h a v e t o c o m e a n d te s t o r t h e
10

c o m p a n i e s t h a t a r e s u p p ly in g y o u h a v e t o c o m e a n d t e s t . W e c a r r y o u t
t h e m a n d a t e o f c o n fo r m it y a s s e s s m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

A n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t t h e p o lic y a s

o r i g in a l ly c o n c e i v e d r e f e r e n c e d t h e S A N S 8 6 2 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . A n d I a m a w a r e o f t h e
f a c t th a t t o d a y y o u a r e n o t g o in g t o b e t a l k in g t o t h e s p e c i fi c s b e c a u s e
a t e c h n o c r a t f r o m y o u r d e p a r t m e n t w il l c o m e a n d d e a l w i t h m a t t e r s th a t
r e l a t e t o w h ic h c o m p a n i e s w e r e t e s t e d f o r th is a n d w h i c h c o m p a n i e s
w e r e c o m p l ia n t a n d a ll o f t h o s e . T h a t ty p e o f d e t a i ls is g o i n g to c o m e
20

la t e r. A m I r i g h t ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye M a ’ a m I c a n s p e a k t o s o m e o f it .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : B u t a d e t a i le d t e c h n ic a l e v id e n c e w o u l d n e e d
t o b e a d v a n c e d b y a n e x p e r t i n t h e fi e l d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : W h ic h m i g h t b e a n a u d i t o r f o r c e r ti f ic a ti o n o r
a l a b o r a t o r y e n g i n e e r C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

Then you deal with the

m o n i e s a n d t h e s e t ti n g u p o f t h e l a b o r a to r y in p a r a g r a p h 4 o f y o u s t a te
– i n p a r a g r a p h 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d y o u s a y y o u w e r e a ll o c a t e d b y
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s a n a m o u n t o f R 2 6 . 3 m il li o n .
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

Chairperson the original memorandum of

u n d e r s t a n d in g b e t w e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y w h ic h is
t h e S A B S s h a r e h o ld e r, t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s a n d t h e
10

S A B S a g r e e d u p o n a s u m o f R 3 0 m i ll io n t o b e tr a n s fe r r e d t o th e S A B S
b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n .

In o r d e r to e s t a b l is h t h e

c a p a c i ty in o t h e r w o r d s t h e e q u i p m e n t a n d th e c a p a b il it y i n o t h e r w o r d s
t h e r e q u i s i t e te c h n i c a l s t a ff t o b e a b l e t o t e s t t o th e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f th e
S A N S 8 6 2 a n d S A B S d i d th a t . S A B S n e v e r s p e n t – n e v e r r e c e iv e d R 3 0
m il li o n i t r e c e iv e d R 2 6 m i ll io n . N e v e r t h e le s s th e r e q u is i te c a p a c i ty a n d
c a p a b il it y w a s e s t a b li s h in o r d e r t o te s t s e t - t o p b o x e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : To t h e S A N S 8 6 2 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s .

A n d j u s t a s a – ju s t t o c l a r it y o n

w h a t – i f o n e s a y s t h is – o n e s e e s a p a r ti c u l a r s e t- t o p b o x w h ic h is
s o m e t h i n g th a t w e a r e g o in g t o d e a l w i t h la t e r a n d t h a t p e r s o n s e e s i t
a n d t h a t p e r s o n w a n ts t o s e e w h e th e r t h a t is S A B S a p p r o v e d y o u – t h e
t e a m h a s j u s t p u t u p s o m e p ic t u r e s to s h o w w h a t y o u r S A N S a p p r o v a l
w o u ld l o o k li k e .

C o u l d y o u ju s t p u t u p t h a t d e m o n s t r a t io n p le a s e ?

T h a n k y o u . I s t h a t – s o r r y C h a ir c o u l d y o u – t h a t – i s t h a t a – s o r r y.

Page 12 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

M a ’ a m – C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t is n o t a S A B S

mark.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Just that one. Would that be a SABS one?
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

T h a t i s u n e q u i v o c a l ly n o t a S A B S m a r k , a

SABS.
CHAIRPERSON: I think I know how…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s h o w i t w o r k s .
CHAIRPERSON: How …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y th is i s a S A B S m a r k l o o k l ik e – lo o k s li k e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sure that is not one – the one.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o . O h y e s C h a ir b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n o n e s e e s i t i n a ll – i n m a n y p r o d u c ts .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i t d o e s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Could you just have a look at the one that
w i ll h a v e y o u r m a r k p le a s e ?
CHAIRPERSON: But I…

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir i t i s g o i n g t o b e …
CHAIRPERSON: I do not know…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is g o i n g t o b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d o n o t k n o w i f w e n e e d to s e e i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is g o i n g t o t a k e a s e c o n d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja because…

Page 13 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O h b u t i f y o u d o n o t n e e d to s e e i t t h e n

there is no need.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s u n l e s s w e a n t ic ip a te t h a t t h e r e w il l b e s o m e

d is p u te s a b o u t w h e t h e r c e r t a in b o x e s w e r e S A B S a p p r o v e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is t h e p o in t . T h a t i s t h e p o i n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e y w i ll b e s o m e d is p u t e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e r e is th a t – t h a t is th e p o in t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e w i ll b e s o m e d i s p u te a b o u t w h e th e r …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: They were approved.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A p a r ti c u la r m a r k is a S A B S m a r k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n th a t i s f in e l e t u s s e e i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t . T h e s e c o n d o n e ? Is i t n o t c o m i n g
through?
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to…

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o C h a ir if i t is a p r o b l e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

To g iv e t h e m a c h a n c e to g e t i t w h i l e y o u – w e

c o n ti n u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e ll – w e c o n ti n u e o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja they must look for it and so when you go back to
t h e m t h e y m u s t h a v e i t r e a d y.

Page 14 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. O k a y. S o t h e n y o u – i n
p a r a g r a p h 4 y o u a ls o d e a l w i th t h e f a c t t h a t t h e la b o r a to r y it s e l f i t i s
n o w lo s i n g s ta ff a n d i t i s u n d e r u ti li s e d a n d c o u l d y o u j u s t t e ll t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t c o u ld b e th e r e a s o n s f o r t h is l a c k o f e n t h u s i a s m t o
a c t u a ll y u ti li s e a n d u s e th e l a b o r a t o r y a n d w h a t w o u l d th e r e s u l t w o u ld
b e i n t e r m s o f p r o d u c ts m a y b e t h a t d o n o t g o t h r o u g h t h e l a b o r a t o r y
process.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : C h a ir p e r s o n a l a b o r a t o r y h o u s e d a t t h e S A B S
t e s ts to c e r t if ic a ti o n i n o t h e r w o r d s i f i t i s – i f t h e r e is a p r o d u c t w h ic h
10

is b e i n g c e r t i fi e d in a n a u d i t p r o c e s s t h a t c e r ti f ic a t i o n c a n in c l u d e
t e s ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

So there has got to be testing in order to have

c e r t if ic a ti o n ?
M R G A R TH S T R A C H A N :

N o t in e v e r y i n s t a n c e b u t c e r t a i n l y in m a n y

p r o d u c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : I f I m a y g iv e a n e x a m p l e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : A b o t tl e o f w a t e r – t h e c o m p a n y w o u l d s e e k a
20

c e r t if ic a ti o n f o r th e b o t t le o f w a t e r a n d t h e d u r a b i li ty o f t h e g l a s s o r th e
c h a r a c te r is t ic s o f th e b o t tl e o r th e c h e m i c a l c o m p o s it i o n o f th e w a t e r
c o u l d b e t e s te d to t h e c e r t i fic a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : B u t th e r e i s a n o th e r fo r m o f t e s ti n g w h ic h is
c u s t o m e r s p e c if ic r e q u ir e m e n t t e s t in g C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e a c u s t o m e r

Page 15 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
m a y b r i n g t e s ti n g – b r in g a p r o d u c t f o r t e s ti n g in c l u d i n g fo r e x a m p l e t o
b e a b l e t o m e e t t h e c o n fo r m i t y r e q u ir e m e n ts fo r t h e e x p o r ti n g o f a
p r o d u c t i n to a n o th e r j u r is d ic t io n .

S o t h e la b o r a t o r ie s d o n o t o n l y t e s t

t o c e r ti fi c a t io n t h e y w o u l d t e s t fo r o t h e r r e a s o n s .

B u t t o s p e c if ic a l ly

a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n a l a b o r a t o r y w h ic h in t h is c a s e c o s ts R 2 6 m i ll io n t o
s e t u p a n d w h ic h in c u r s r e c u r r in g o p e r a ti o n a l c o s ts i n th e f o r m o f
m a in t e n a n c e th e p a y m e n t o f t h e s t a ff a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r th d e p e n d s
u p o n t h e v o l u m e o f t e s t in g w h ic h p a s s e s t h r o u g h a n d I c a n s a y t h a t
t h e r e h a s b e e n a v e r y l o w v o l u m e o f t e s t in g i n th e l a b o r a t o r y
10

s p e c i f ic a l ly s e t u p f o r s e t- t o p b o x e s a n d i n f a c t w e h a v e i n c u r r e d
s ig n if ic a n t l o s s e s w h ic h w e e s t i m a t e in t h e ti m e a v a il a b l e t o b e R 1 .8
m il li o n a n d t h e v i a b i li ty o f t h e l a b o r a t o r y i s i n s e r i o u s q u e s ti o n a n d th e
a d m i n is tr a t o r s a r e c o n te m p l a ti n g c lo s i n g t h e l a b o r a t o r y s in c e i t is n o t
v ia b le a n d i n t h e t o ta l r e v e n u e o f t h e i n s t i t u t i o n o n ly a s m a ll fr a c ti o n is
fr o m th e p u b li c fi s c u s t h e b u lk o f th e r e v e n u e a r is e s fr o m a c o m m e r c i a l
p a y m e n t s f o r s t a n d a r d s c e r ti fi c a t io n , la b o r a t o r y s e r v ic e s a n d l o c a l
c o n te n t v e r i f ic a t i o n a n d c o n s ig n m e n t i n s p e c t io n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

I f a p r o d u c t c a r r ie s th e – m a d e in

S o u th A f r i c a s t a m p o r m a n u fa c tu r e d in S o u t h A fr ic a s t a m p is th a t a n
20

e q u iv a l e n t o f w h a t y o u w o u l d e x p e c t t o b e – t o h a v e a t l e a s t g o n e
t h r o u g h t h e S A B S s t a n d a r d s te s ti n g ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : O h n o C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No.
MR GARTH STRACHAN:
SABS mark.

M a d e i n S o u t h A fr ic a is u n e q u iv o c a l ly n o t a

R e m e m b e r t h a t a S A B S m a r k i s a c e r t if ic a ti o n to a

Page 16 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
p a r t ic u l a r s t a n d a r d w h e th e r it is a s ta n d a r d i n t h is c a s e 8 6 2 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : O r a l o c a l c o n t e n t s ta n d a r d w h ic h i s 1 2 8 6 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . J u s t w h a t I h a d s a id I –
r e l a ti n g t o th e q u e s t io n th a t I – i f t h a t p r o d u c t h a s g o t M a d e In S o u th
A fr ic a a n d y o u d o n o t s e e it – o r d o y o u s e e a S A B S m a r k t h e r e ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e i s d e f in i te ly n o S A B S m a r k
o n t h a t d i s p l a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d th e n l a s t ly c o u l d y o u
10

ju s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n fa c t t h e r e is n o t e v e n a n i m i ta t io n o f a S A B S m a r k ,
is t h a t r i g h t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d th e n i n th e n e x t o n e
w e j u s t s h o w e d t h a t w h e r e i t is – i t h a s t h e S A B S a p p r o v a l w o u l d i t
c o m e u p in t h a t w a y ?
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e m id d le s t a m p is t h e S A B S

m a r k a n d i t is t h e c u s t o m e r v i e w o n w h e t h e r o r n o t th a t p r o d u c t h a s
20

b e e n c e r ti fi e d b y S A B S .

T h e m a n u f a c t u r e r is in p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e

c e r t if ic a te w h i c h e n a b le s t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r to s ta m p t h e m a r k o n th e
product for sale.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : O r d is tr i b u ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .

Page 17 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t – th a t s o u n d s s tr a n g e t o m e .

I hope I

u n d e r s t a n d i t c o r r e c tl y. T h e S o u t h A f r i c a n B u r e a u o f S t a n d a r d s i s t h e
a u t h o r i ty t h a t b y l a w h a s b e e n g iv e n p o w e r t o c e r ti f y g o o d s a n d
p r o d u c ts t o m e e t c e r t a in s t a n d a r d s – to b e m e e t i n g c e r t a i n s t a n d a r d s .
I t s e ts th e s ta n d a r d a s w e l l i s it n o t ?

Set the standards and then

c e r t if i e s th a t th o s e g o o d s o r p r o d u c ts – w h e th e r t h o s e g o o d s o r
p r o d u c ts m e e t th a t s t a n d a r d . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

S o w h e n I s e e S o u t h A fr ic a n B u r e a u o f

Standards mark on any product then I have the comfort that because I
h a v e h i g h r e g a r d f o r t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n B u r e a u o f S t a n d a r d s a n d
k n o w i n g t h a t it is a n a u t h o r i t y t h a t p e r f o r m s t h is c e r ti f ic a t i o n jo b i n
t e r m s o f th e l a w I h a v e t h e c o m f o r t t h a t t h e n t h e p r o d u c t m u s t b e fi n e .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t i s a b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R G A R TH S T R A C H A N :

P l e a s e b e a r i n m i n d t h a t c e r t if ic a ti o n o r

c e r t if ic a te s e x p ir e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : A f t e r th r e e y e a r s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

A n d th e r e f o r e c o m p a n ie s a r e r e q u ir e d to

r e n e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN: The permit.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : T h e c e r ti f ic a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : A n d th e n a u d i t o r s o r r e - a u d it t h e c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

W h e r e t h e r e i s t e s t in g r e q u i r e d t h e r e m i g h t

b e t e s ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : A n d th e y a r e r e - i s s u e d a p e r m it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR GARTH STRACHAN:

W h i c h a l lo w s t h a t c o m p a n y t o s ta m p t h e

p r o d u c t w i t h t h e S A B S m a r k w h ic h i s a m a r k o b v io u s ly o f h i g h q u a l it y to
t h e r e q u is it e s t a n d a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

A s ta n d a r d w o u l d d i ff e r i n b y p r o d u c t a n d

s e c t o r o f t h e e c o n o m y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

B u t m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t o n ly t h e S o u t h

A fr ic a n B u r e a u o f S t a n d a r d s c a n p u t t h a t s t a m p o n a p r o d u c t a n d th a t
20

w h e n I s e e th a t m a r k I s a y i t is t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n B u r e a u o f S t a n d a r d s
w h o h a v e s a tis f ie d t h e m s e l v e s th a t t h i s p r o d u c t h a s g o t a ll t h e
[i n d is t in c t] a n d t h e fi s s u r e s t h a t a r e r e q u ir e d o r t h is p r o d u c t w h e n i t
m e e ts t h e r e q u ir e d s t a n d a r d . N o w fr o m w h a t y o u s a y – y o u h a v e s a i d I
a m g e t t in g th e i m p r e s s io n th a t s o m e b o d y e ls e – a c o m p a n y, a n e n ti t y
c a n p u t t h e s t a m p , t h e S A B S m a r k o n i ts p r o d u c t o n t h e b a s i s th a t i n

Page 19 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
t h e ir v i e w t h a t p r o d u c t m e e ts th e S A B S s t a n d a r d . D id I m i s u n d e r s ta n d
something?
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

C h a ir

if

I

f a i le d

to

communicate

that

a d e q u a t e l y I a p o lo g i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : N o c o m p a n y c a n v o l u n t a r il y u s e a S A B S m a r k
u n l e s s th e y h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h a c e r t i fi c a t io n p r o c e s s a n d b e in g is s u e d
w i t h a c e r t i fic a ti o n w h ic h a ll o w s t h e m t o u s e t h e S A B S m a r k . W e m u s t
o f c o u r s e b e m i n d f u l t h a t t h e r e m i g h t b e c e r ta i n y o u k n o w c a s e s w h e r e
10

c o m p a n i e s m a y u s e t h e S A B S m a r k i ll e g a ll y b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e n o t
r e n e w e d th e p e r m i t in w h ic h c a s e S A B S c o n d u c t s m a r k e t s u r v e i ll a n c e
a n d i f th e r e is a c o m p a n y t h a t is u s i n g th e S A B S m a r k il l e g a l ly w e
w o u ld a p p r o a c h t h e c o m p a n y a n d t h e c o u r ts t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e il le g a l
u s e o f a S A B S m a r k is - is s t o p p e d i m m e d i a te ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s - l e t u s g o b a c k to t h e e x a m p l e o f t h a t b o t t le i n
fr o n t o f y o u . I f I a m - i f I m a n u f a c t u r e a b o t t le a n d I b r i n g i t to S A B S
a n d a s k S A B S t o c e r ti fy it a n d p u t i ts m a r k o n i t. I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r
t h e y p u t i ts m a r k o r t h e y a u th o r is e m e to p u t t h e ir m a r k o n i t b u t
b a s ic a lly I g o t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s a n d e v e r y t h i n g g o e s w e ll .

20

Is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t t h e w a y t h is w o r k s is t h a t o n c e y o u h a v e
s o to s p e a k c e r t i fi e d a s a m p l e t h e n y o u g i v e m e a u th o r i ty o r p e r m is s io n
t o g o a n d m a n u fa c t u r e o t h e r - o t h e r b o t tl e s o f t h e s a m e ty p e a n d I
u n d e r t a k e t o m a n u f a c t u r e t h e m in t h e s a m e w a y a s t h e o n e th a t y o u
h a v e s e e n a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t i t h a s g o t s a m e th i n g s t h a t i t - th e o n e I
g a v e to y o u h a d a n d t h e n i f I a m s a t is f ie d t h a t I h a v e m a d e it i n t h a t

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
w a y t h e n I d o n o t t a k e i t b a c k to y o u .

I put your mark on it.

Is th a t

how it works?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : C h a ir p e r s o n b r o a d ly s p e a k i n g c o r r e c tl y b u t i f
I m a y a d d i n o r d e r to s e c u r e c e r ti fi c a t io n o f th e b o t t le i n o u r e x a m p l e
y o u w o u l d h a v e to p u r c h a s e th e r e q u ir e d s t a n d a r d . In o t h e r w o r d s a n d
d e v e l o p e d i n a p r o c e s s i n v o lv i n g i n d u s t r y, i n d u s tr y e x p e r ts , a c a d e m ic ,
s c i e n t is ts i n w h a t i s c a ll e d t e c h n ic a l c o m m i t te e s w h ic h e i t h e r d e v e l o p
a c c o r d i n g t o S o u th A fr ic a n c o n d i t io n s a h o m e g r o w n s ta n d a r d o r t h e y
adapt
10

an

i n t e r n a ti o n a l

standard

belonging

to

the

I n te r n a ti o n a l

S t a n d a r d s O r g a n is a ti o n b u t a m a n u fa c t u r i n g c o m p a n y w o u l d p u r c h a s e a
standard.
T h e t e s t - t h e c e r ti fi c a t io n p r o c e s s i s c a r r i e d o u t b y S A B S
w h ic h is s u i ta b l y q u a l if i e d a n d a c c r e d i t e d a u d it o r s g o i n g t o t h e p l a n t o r
f a c to r y w h i c h p r o d u c e s t h e b o tt l e o f w a t e r t o e n s u r e th a t t h e p r o d u c t io n
a c c o r d s w i t h t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts s e t o u t i n t h e s ta n d a r d . I f t h e p r o d u c t i n
t h is c a s e t h e b o t tl e o f w a t e r i n t h e s t a n d a r d a l s o h a s t o h a v e c e r t a i n o f
it s c h a r a c t e r is tic s t e s t e d t h e n t h e S A B S l a b o r a t o r i e s w o u ld t e s t to t h e
r e q u ir e m e n t s o f th e c e r ti f ic a ti o n .
A t t h e e n d o f t h e a u d i t in g p r o c e s s th e c o m p li a n c e r e p o r t

20

w o u ld g o t o a n a u th o r i ty w i th in t h e S A B S w h ic h e n s u r e s t h a t d u e a n d
p r o c e s s h a s b e e n f o ll o w e d a n d t h e c o m p a n y is i s s u e d w i t h a c e r ti fi c a t e
w h ic h e n a b le s i t to s ta m p it s p r o d u c t s fo r t h e d u r a t i o n o f t h a t p e r m it
t h a t c e r ti f ic a te w h ic h i s t h r e e y e a r s w i th a S A B S m a r k .
A t t h e e n d o f th e t h r e e y e a r s in o r d e r t o e n s u r e t h a t th e r e is
c o n fo r m i t y a s s e s s m e n t is r o b u s t t h a t t h e c o m p a n y in th is c a s e w o u l d

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
not have to repurchase the standard but they have to renew the permit
a n d u n d e r t a k e f o r t h e n e x t p h a s e o f th e o w n e r s h ip o f t h e S A B S m a r k
a n o t h e r c e r t i fic a ti o n w h ic h m a y i n v o lv e a u d i ti n g a n d te s t i fy i n g .
S o th is i s n o t a s i t u a t io n w h e r e y o u g e t a c e r ti fi c a t e a n d f o r
t h e r e s t o f ti m e y o u c a n u s e th e S A B S m a r k . I t i s a v e r y s p e c i fic s e t
d o w n in t e r n a t io n a l ly p r o c e s s th a t y o u h a v e t o f o l lo w.

SABS is then

a c c r e d i t e d b y t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n N a t i o n a l A c c r e d i ta t io n S y s t e m a n
a g e n c y o f G o v e r n m e n t a n d i n m a n y c a s e s in t e r n a t io n a l a c c r e d i ta t io n
a u t h o r i t ie s t h a t c o m e t o S A B S a n d c h e c k t h a t o u r s y s te m s o u r a u d i t in g
10

o u r t e s t i n g a n d t h e e n t e r p r o c e s s m e e ts r ig o r o u s r e q u ir e m e n t s o f t h e
c e r t if ic a ti o n p r o c e s s . I h o p e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t a n s w e r s t h e q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M a y b e le t u s t a k e i t f u r t h e r.

I a m t r y i n g to

u n d e r s t a n d to w h a t e x t e n t th e s y s t e m i s o p e n t o a b u s e . Fr o m w h a t - I
t h i n k f o r s o m e r e a s o n I to o k i t th a t e a c h b o tt l e o r p r o d u c t t h a t h a s g o t a
S A B S m a r k h a s g o n e t h r o u g h a S A B S c e r ti f ic a ti o n o r t e s t in g p r o c e s s
b u t o n - o n r e f le c ti o n p r o b a b l y t h a t is i m p o s s i b l e to - t o h a p p e n .
I m e a n m i ll io n s o f b o t tl e s c o u l d n o t h a v e a l l g o n e t h r o u g h
S A B S p r o c e s s . S o - s o - b u t i f o n c e I g iv e y o u t h a t b o t tl e a n d I s a y I
in t e n d m a n u fa c tu r i n g b o t tl e s e x a c t ly lik e t h is a n d w h e n I s e l l t h e m I
20

want them to carry a SABS mark.

I t s e e m s t o m e fr o m w h a t y o u a r e

t e ll i n g m e t h a t c e r t a i n th i n g s m u s t b e i n p l a c e .
L a b o r a to r y a n d y o u t a lk a b o u t a c a d e m ic s a n d t h e i n d u s t r y
b l a h , b la h , b l a h .

Yo u - y o u w o u ld t h e n a f te r t e s t in g p r o v i d e th e

c e r t if ic a ti o n b u t t h e c e r t if ic a ti o n g iv e s th e m a n u fa c tu r e r i n t h i s c a s e o f
t h e b o t t le t h e r i g h t t o p u t th e S A B S m a r k o n a l l i ts b o tt l e s . I a s s u m e

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
t h a t a r e m a d e l ik e t h a t o n e a n d th e n w h e n - w h e n t h e y a r e s o l d t h e y
a r e s o l d w i th - w i t h th a t m a r k .
N o w I a m w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r i f a s th e b u s in e s s p e r s o n I a m
s u p p o s e d t o d o t h a t . O b v i o u s l y o n e s h o u l d a s s u m e t h a t I w il l h a v e a n
in t e r e s t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t m y b u s in e s s h a s a g o o d n a m e i n t h e m a r k e t .
T h a t t h e s e b o t t le s w h ic h c a r r y t h e S A B S m a r k a r e r e a lly o f q u a l it y a n d a n d I d o n o t h a v e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e m a y b e s o m e a r e n o t r e a l ly u p to
t h a t s t a n d a r d - th e S A B S s t a n d a r d b u t I a m w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r i f I a m
e s t a b li s h e d .
E v e r y b o d y k n o w s t h a t m y b o t t le s h a v e g o t t h e S A B S m a r k b u t

10

I r u n o u t o f in g r e d i e n t s t h a t m u s t b e u s e d i n o r d e r to b e - m a n u fa c t u r e
t h is b o t t le . In s te a d o f u s i n g f iv e t h a t a r e r e q u ir e d . I u s e th r e e b u t I d o
n o t w a n t to s e n d o u t t o t h e m a r k e t b o tt l e s fr o m m y c o m p a n y t h a t d o n o t
h a v e t h e S A B S m a r k b e c a u s e m y c o m p a n y i s k n o w n t o o n l y s e ll b o t t le s
with the SABS mark and then I - whether I - I can put the SABS mark.
I c a n c h e a t i n o t h e r w o r d s c h e a t t h e - t h e p u b l ic .
SAPS mark.

Put the

E v e n th o u g h t h is b a t c h o f b o tt l e s m a y b e d o n o t a c tu a lly

m e e t t h a t s ta n d a r d . W h e th e r t h e - t h e s y s t e m a l lo w s t h a t t o h a p p e n o r
not.
20

M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : C h a ir p e r s o n i f I m a y a n s w e r i n th is p a r t ic u l a r
m a n n e r. R e m e m b e r th a t a S A B S m a r k is a v o l u n t a r y p r o c e s s . It is a
m a r k o f c o n f o r m a n c e s t o a p a r ti c u la r s ta n d a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

I f a s ta n d a r d is r e f e r e n c e d i n a p i e c e o f

le g i s l a ti o n b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e h e a l t h s a f e ty a n d o t h e r c o n c e r n s t h e n

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
a n o t h e r in s ti t u t i o n o f t h e s t a t e t h e N a ti o n a l R e g u l a to r f o r C o m p u ls o r y
S p e c if ic a ti o n s c o m e s i n t o p la y. T h e y m a y u s e t h e te s t i n g c a p a b i li t ie s
a t S A B S o r o t h e r t e s t h o u s e s t o e n s u r e th a t t h a t c o m p a n y a n d
a g r ic u lt u r a l - a g r o p r o c e s s in g p r o d u c ts c a n a p p ly o r h e a l th a n d s a f e ty
p r o d u c ts o f o n e k i n d a n d a n o th e r a n d N I C S is n o t th e o n ly r e g u l a t o r.
R e m e m b e r th e r e a r e m a n y o t h e r r e g u l a t o r s . I f a s t a n d a r d is
r e fe r e n c e d i n a r e g u l a ti o n t h e n i t is a b s o l u te ly c r i tic a l t h a t t h e N a t io n a l
R e g u l a t o r f o r C o m p u ls o r y S p e c i f ic a ti o n s c o m e s i n - i n to p a ly a n d t h e y
h a v e t h e r e s p o n s i b il i ty t o e n s u r e t h a t i t is n o t j u s t a q u e s ti o n o f a - a
10

g o l d e n s a m p le b u t th a t th e r e a r e r e g u l a r c h e c k s o n t h e c o n f o r m i ty o f
t h a t c o m p u l s o r y s p e c i fi c a t io n .
I f I m a y g i v e y o u a n e x a m p l e . T h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th a n d
t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y p u r c h a s e c o n d o m s .

T h e l e g is la t io n a n d t h e

t e n d e r d o c u m e n ta t i o n r e fe r e n c e s t h e s t a n d a r d in t h e - in - in la w a n d
t h e r e f o r e i n th o s e i n s t a n c e s t h e - t h e S A B S m a r k i s a m a r k a l s o o f
q u a li ty w h ic h c a n b e te s te d a g a i n s t fr o m ti m e t o t i m e a n d i s t e s te d f r o m
ti m e t o ti m e b u t t h e S A B S m a r k in i ts e l f is a - is a v o l u n t a r y m a r k .
U n l e s s a p r o c u r in g d e p a r t m e n t o r a r e g u l a to r y a u t h o r i ty s a y s
w e a r e p r o c u r in g fr o m t h e p r iv a t e s e c t o r a n d t h e c o n d i ti o n o f t h a t
20

p r o c u r e m e n t is th a t t h e p r o d u c t m u s t c a r r y a S A B S m a r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w o u l d n o t b e S A B S r o l e to fr o m t i m e to t i m e d u r i n g
t h e t e r m o f li c e n c e th a t i t h a s g iv e n t o a m a n u f a c t u r e r to u s e a S A B S
m a r k . I t w o u l d n o t b e i ts r o l e t o fr o m t i m e to ti m e p a y s u r p r is e v is i t s t o
t h e m a n u fa c t u r e r ’s l a b o r a t o r y f o r e x a m p l e . J u s t t a k e s a m p le s . C h e c k
w h e t h e r th e r e is n o c h e a t in g i n th e s e n s e in w h ic h I h a v e m a d e t o s a y

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
o k a y b o t tl e s a r e m a d e in t h e s a m e w a y t h a t th e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o i n
terms of what was tested.
S o th a t th a t i s t h e t h r e a t t h a t a m a n u f a c t u r e r h a s o f b e i n g
c a u g h t if h e s e n d s o u t b o t tl e s w it h a S A B S m a r k w h i c h d o n o t d e s e r v e
to have a SABS mark.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : To th e b e s t o f m y k n o w le d g e C h a ir p e r s o n n o
b u t it is a n a r e a w h e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s o m e b o d y e ls e mi g h t b e a b l e t o t a l k a b o u t ?
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : W e - w e c o u l d p r o v i d e fu r t h e r te c h n i c a l …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : C la r i ty to t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : B u t t o t h e b e s t o f my k n o w l e d g e n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i n a s y o u h a v e a lr e a d y t e s t if i e d t o t h e o b l i g a ti o n s b u t m a y b e ju s t to - to
e m p h a s is e o n e o b li g a t i o n in t e r m s o f t h e M O U t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o a t
p a g e 1 3 t h a t d e a ls w i t h t h e o b l ig a ti o n s o f S A B S i n s o fa r a s th e s e t- to p
boxes are concerned.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 13?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a g e 1 - 3 y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . W h ic h p a g e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

1 - 3 - p a g e 1 - 3 o n th e r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r.

O k a y. 1 3 , o k a y. A r e y o u t h e r e ?

Page 25 of 33

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : I a m n o t . S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th e r e d n u m b e r s o n t h e r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of the pages.
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : O h , o h o k a y. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A f t e r th e y e l lo w …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN: I beg your pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D iv id e r.
10

MR GARTH STRACHAN: I beg your pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u a n d th e n th e r e is C la u s e 9

w h ic h th o s e o b li g a t i o n s o f th e p a r t i e s a n d t h e n i t d e a ls w i th :
“ S A B S s h a ll p r o v i d e th e f o ll o w i n g s e r v ic e s a n d t h e n
t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y t o d e t e r m i n e f u l l c o s t o f s e t ti n g
u p a f u l ly a c c r e d i t e d l a b o r a t o r y.

T h e f e a s i b i li ty

s t u d y m u s t b e c o n c lu d e d w i t h i n tw o m o n t h s o f t h is
a g r e e m e n t’s s i g n a t u r e . ”
T h a t w a s d o n e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20

M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
study as Annexure B.

A n d y o u h a v e a tt a c h e d th a t f e a s i b i li t y

I t a p p e a r s C h a i r a t p a g e - fr o m p a g e s 3 2

o n w a r d s a n d th e n 9 . 1 .2 :
“ Te s ti n g o f s e t- t o p b o x e s t o t h e a p p l ic a b l e S o u th
A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l S t a n d a r d o r o t h e r s p e c i fi c a ti o n a n d

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
p r o v i d e a p p l ic a b l e t e s t r e p o r t s . ”
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And then:
“Provision

of

d is c o u n te d

rates

for

lo c a l

m a n u f a c t u r e r s w is h i n g t o b e c e r t i fi e d b y S A B S
w h ic h i n c lu d e s p r o d u c t c e r ti f ic a t i o n , S A B S f a c t o r y
a u d it s , c o n s i g n m e n t in s p e c t io n s a n d o t h e r r e le v a n t
c e r t if ic a ti o n s c h e m e s a s a g r e e d b y b o t h p a r ti e s . ”
And then …
10

M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Maybe …
M R G A R T H S T R A C H A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

“ A u d i t r e p o r ts a n d c e r ti f ic a t e s

w h ic h w il l b e p r o v i d e d b y S A B S f o r a p p lic a b l e
a u d it s . ”
A n d t h e n m a y b e t h o s e a r e t h e m o s t r e le v a n t o n e s t o t h e - t o
t h e d i s c u s s io n th a t y o u a r e h a v i n g t h i s m o r n i n g . A m I r i g h t ?
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n to th e v e r y b e s t o f m y

k n o w l e d g e S A B S h a s h o n o u r e d a ll t h e o b li g a t io n s t o t h e M O U s i g n e d
20

b e t w e e n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n , th e D TI a n d t h e S A B S .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h e w it n e s s b e f o r e y o u y e s t e r d a y

M r R o y K r u g e r li n k e d t h e m a n u f a c t u r i n g o r t h e s e s e t- t o p b o x e s w i t h i n
t h e c o u n tr y t o j o b c r e a ti o n .

N o w c a n I a s k w h e t h e r t h e f a c t th a t n o w

t h e f a c t o r y i ts e l f is b e c o m in g - w h e r e y o u h a v e t o t e s t t h e s e p r o d u c ts is
b e c o m i n g r e d u n d a n t a n d d o y o u h a v e a n y id e a o f h o w - w h e r e t h e

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
m a n u f a c t u r in g o f t h e s e t- to p b o x e s i s h a p p e n in g b u t i f y o u d o n o t t h e n
y o u c a n ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .
MR GARTH STRACHAN: We do not because it is not our mandate.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

I t i s a D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y

mandate.

without

I

can

say

fe a r

of

c o n tr a d ic t io n

that

local

m a n u f a c t u r in g is a s s e t o u t in n u m e r o u s G o v e r n m e n t d o c u m e n t s
u n e q u iv o c a l ly a g e n e r a t o r o f n o t o n ly e m p l o y m e n t b u t i t h a s m u l ti p l e
o th e r e c o n o m ic s p i ll o v e r s , s k il ls c r e a t io n , s u p p l y d e v e l o p m e n t a n d s o
10

o n a n d s o f o r th .
P l e a s e b e a r in m i n d o f c o u r s e th a t a S A B S m a n d a t e i s t o
c e r t if y a n d t e s t t o a s ta n d a r d a n d w e a r e n o t i n a p o s i ti o n to f o r c e a
G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t t o i n s i s t t h a t p u b li c s e c to r p r o c u r e m e n t i s
c o n fo r m e d t o t h e s ta n d a r d . Th a t i s a p o l ic y m a t t e r o f G o v e r n m e n t . W e
p r o v i d e t h e c e r t i fic a ti o n a n d t h e la b o r a t o r y t e s ti n g c a p a b il i ti e s w h ic h
w e d i d t o t h e t e r m s a n d c o n d it i o n s o f th e M O I .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR GARTH STRACHAN:

T h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n s o l it t le

c e r t if ic a ti o n a n d t e s ti n g t o th e c a p a c i ty t h a t w e e s t a b li s h e d is b e y o n d
20

o u r r e m it .
v e r i fic a ti o n .

I can say that three companies went for local content
R e m e m b e r t h e r e is a s e p a r a te s t a n d a r d a n d b o t h - a l l

t h r e e o f t h e c e r t i fic a t e s h a v e e x p ir e d a n d s i n c e 2 0 1 5 11 c o m p a n i e s
h a v e h a d t e s ts u n d e r t a k e n o n t h e ir e q u i p m e n t b u t t h a t is n o t th e
c e r t if ic a ti o n .
T h e y c a n c o m e fo r o t h e r fo r ms o f t e s ti n g .

Page 28 of 33

We can provide

13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
y o u w it h d e t a i l o f w h a t t h e y c a m e to t e s t f o r. It m a y b e f o r e x a m p l e t h a t
t h e y w e r e t e s t in g f o r a n e x p o r t d e s t in a ti o n t o a d i ff e r e n t s ta n d a r d b u t in
t h e t i m e a v a i la b l e w e d o n o t h a v e t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n o t h e r t h a n 11
c o m p a n i e s c a m e a n d i n fo u r y e a r s t h a t i s s i m p ly n o t c a p a b l e o r th a t
k in d o f r e v e n u e a n d p a s s i n g t h r o u g h t h e l a b o r a to r i e s i s c o m p l e t e ly
u n s u s ta in a b l e f o r t h e e x is t e n c e o f a t e s ti n g f a c il i ty a n d a s I s a i d w e
h a v e in c u r r e d c o s t s o f 1 . 8 m il li o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u h a v e 1 . 6 a t p a r a g r a p h …
MR GARTH STRACHAN: 1.6 I beg your pardon.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a r a g r a p h 4 . 1 .4 .
MR GARTH STRACHAN: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th a t t h a t i s t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m t h is w i t n e s s . T h a n k y o u .
CAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m in g t o g iv e

e v i d e n c e a n d t o s h a r e w i th t h e C o m m i s s io n y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f h o w
S A B S - o f S A B S r o l e in t h is p r o j e c t . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I f a n e e d
a r i s e s f o r u s t o a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k w e w il l a s k y o u b u t t h a n k y o u
very much and you are excused. Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Chair I beg leave to hand up EXHIBIT

C C 3 5 w h ic h I m e a n t to h a n d u p . I t is - it i s t h e S A B C P o li c y b u n d l e . I t
d e a ls w i t h th e D T T P o l ic y, t h e c h a n g e s t o th e p o li c y - t h e v a r io u s
p o li c i e s fr o m 2 0 0 8 . Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t h i s t o b e a d m i tt e d o r n o t y e t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. M a y i t b e a d m i tt e d s o t h a t th e
n e x t t i m e w h e n w e c o m e w e k n o w i t is a lr e a d y p a r t o f t h e e x h i b it s ?

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e - w e h a v e m a r k e d i t p o li c y b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a in in g o r m a r k e d S A B C P o l ic y
b u n d l e w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T C C 3 5 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

M r C h a ir m a n t h a t w it h y o u r

le a v e w o u l d t h e n b r i n g u s t o th e e n d o f t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d in g s b e c a u s e
w e w e r e t h in k i n g o f h a v i n g t w o w it n e s s e s w h ic h i s t h e o n e w i tn e s s t h a t
10

c o u l d n o t a t te n d to d a y a n d w e w il l a p p r o a c h C h a i r f o r a n o t h e r
a l lo c a t io n b e c a u s e C h a ir y o u w o u l d r e c a ll t h a t o n th e v e r y f ir s t d a y
w h e n w e s t a r t e d w e h a d p la c e d v a r i o u s b o x e s o f m a te r i a l b e f o r e y o u .
W e h a v e n o t d e a lt w i t h th a t m a t e r i a l .

Fo r i n s ta n c e th e

e v i d e n c e o f D r B o l o k a w h o is g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h s p e c i fi c c o n tr a c ts a n d
p o i n t o u t t h e i r r e g u l a r i ti e s a n d u n l a w fu l a w a r d s o f t h o s e t e n d e r s . T h a t
e v i d e n c e w i ll h a v e t o c o m e i n t h e n e x t s e s s io n .

The evidence of

M r Zik o d e w h o is t h e F o r e n s ic A u d i t o r f o r t h e S A B C w h o h a s c o v e r e d
o v e r a h u n d r e d i n v e s ti g a ti o n s .
We have - he has placed most of those before you. those are
20

t h e o n e s th a t w e r e - w e r e p l a c e d o n - o n t h e fir s t d a y w h e n w e s t a r te d
b u t w e a r e - n o w h e is d o in g a s e c o n d e x e r c is e o f s i m p ly s e l e c t in g t h e
o n e s t h a t a r e r e a ll y c r u c i a l fo r p l a c i n g b e f o r e y o u . In s t e a d o f d e a li n g
w i t h t h e h u n d r e d a n d - o v e r 1 6 0 i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a n d t h e n t h ir d ly C h a i r
y o u w o u l d r e c a ll t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e o f P r o f e s s o r M u t u v h i w h o c a m e
b e f o r e y o u la s t w e e k …

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is s u p p o s e d t o c o m e b a c k a n d a ls o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D r M u t u v h i?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Fhatuwani Mutuvhi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S h e is s u p p o s e d - h e - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
H e i s s u p p o s e d t o c a m e b a c k a n d d e a l w i th t h e a c t u a l A u d i t o r 10

G e n e r a l’s f i n d in g s in - r e la t in g to s o m e o f t h e t e n d e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t e v i d e n c e a s w e ll C h a i r w e w o u l d

r e q u e s t t h a t i t b e a l l o c a t e d i n th e s e c o n d s e s s io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Of the proceedings. Then we have other

w i t n e s s e s t h a t a r e li n e d u p b u t w e w il l p r o v id e y o u w i t h a m e m o r a n d u m
la t e s t b y M o n d a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O f w h o th o s e w i t n e s s e s a r e , w h a t a r e t h e y
20

g o i n g t o b e ta lk in g a b o u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t o f c o u r s e t h e r e is j u s t t w o w i t n e s s e s

t h a t - w h o a r e g o in g t o c o m e a n d - a n d d is c u s s - w h o h a v e n o t y e t
g iv e n u s s ta t e m e n ts b u t h a v e b e i n g p r o m is in g to g i v e s t a te m e n t s …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t n o w h a v e c h a n g e d ta c t. O n e o f th e m
n o w s e e k s le g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e n w e w o u l d ju s t a s k th a t C h a ir t h a t

t h o s e b e d ir e c te d to - t o s u b m i t th e ir s ta t e m e n ts b y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A certain date, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t - th a t is fi n e a n d t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t

Ms Swanepoel …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: May have to be called.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: There might be no need to delay too long …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a ll in g h e r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Because her evidence would cover a very narrow …
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is s u e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is s u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t m a y w e l l b e th a t w i t h i n t h e n e x t tw o w e e k s o r s o
w e m i g h t c o n s i d e r f in d i n g a s p a c e fo r h e r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F o r h e r.

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13 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 163
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e m o r n in g m a y b e f r o m n in e to 1 0 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. W e w il l - w e w i ll d o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e w i ll n e e d t o l o o k a t th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

N o th a t is f i n e .

We are therefore going to

a d j o u r n t h e p r o c e e d in g s f o r th e d a y b u t w e w il l c o n t in u e o n M o n d a y. I
t h i n k a t M o n d a y i t is - w e h a v e o n e o r m o r e w i t n e s s e s - t o t w o
w i t n e s s e s fo r E s t in a i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r b u t I t h i n k t h e e v id e n c e l e a d e r
10

f o r Es t in a w a s h e r e t h is m o r n i n g . I th i n k t h e r e m i g h t b e j u s t s o m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o m e c h a n g e s in t h a t li n e u p b u t I …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , b u t I t h in k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

She is going to come as soon as we

adjourn.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr ig h t .

W e w il l a d j o u r n th e n a n d r e s u m e o n

M o n d a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 7 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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